# End of Life Issues: Medicine



## Romans922 (Nov 14, 2009)

Another thread got me thinking about this (and I mean no disrespect to anyone who might disagree with me or who has just made decisions about this) issue of the end of life and the use of medicine to bring comfort. 

Sometimes in the use of using the medicine to bring comfort it places the person receiving the medicine in many different scenarios (because of the medicine that is bringing comfort):

1) coma (spelling?)

OR

2) Not aware of one's faculties

3) there could be more but I am unaware


If such medicines at the end of life to bring comfort cause a coma or cause one no longer to be aware of their faculties, should such medicines be used?

If possible, shouldn't we be aware of what is going on? Shouldn't we want to have control of our faculties as we near death (if possible)?


----------



## Kevin (Nov 14, 2009)

From Prov 31 (hcs)

6 Give beer to one who is dying,
and wine to one whose life is bitter. (I)

7 Let him drink so that he can forget his poverty
and remember his trouble no more. (J)


----------



## Berean (Nov 14, 2009)

The pain from things like bone cancer can become so excruciating that medication is a necessity.


----------



## ewenlin (Nov 14, 2009)

Palliative care is unavoidable and I think, a responsibility in certain cases.


----------



## DMcFadden (Nov 14, 2009)

Palliative care shows respect for the sanctity of life and mercy for the suffering of the person. Both of these are Godly aims and worthy of practice.


----------



## Rich Koster (Nov 14, 2009)

Pain management is proper use of what God has allowed us to develop and not violating his law or ignoring his grace. I know someone who recently died from cancer. The use of narcotic pain medicine made her doze off easily in her chair, but she still was alert and conversational with visitors to the end. You can keep your mind, keep your dignity and keep your suffering to a minimum if the drugs are administered properly.


----------



## Leslie (Nov 14, 2009)

Would you prefer excruciating, intractable pain to comfortable oblivion? Come on. Do to others what you would want done.


----------



## ewenlin (Nov 14, 2009)

Yes, fighting cancer without painkillers is unimaginable..


----------



## JOwen (Nov 14, 2009)

I have been only at half a dozed deathbeds, so I am boy no means an expert on the subject. All 6 times (all cancer but one), strong drugs were used to ease the pain. What struck me about this fact was, in all but one instance, the sick one, while not lucid on many things was very lucid when it came to the gospel. One striking case involved a man (81 yrs) who was in a deep medicated condition. He was not responsive to even the voice of his wife in that condition. Yet, when I was visiting his deathbed, and began to read the Psalms to him, he was noticeably brought from what appeared to be unconsciousness, to semi consciousness. After reading to him for over a half hour, once i believed he was going back to a deep sleep, I said, "Len, I am going to go now. I will be back in a few hours". To which he, with eyes closed yelled "No", and shook his head. I then stayed for another half hour reading the word to him. He died that same evening.
This is only an anecdote, I know, but it demonstrated to me that someone can be seriously medicated, and still have their hearts warmed and confirmed by the Word. I will not forget that evening.
All that to say that I don't believe it is wrong to medicate at "near death".


----------



## Romans922 (Nov 14, 2009)

Leslie said:


> Would you prefer excruciating, intractable pain to comfortable oblivion? Come on. Do to others what you would want done.



Personally, it is different for me, that is why I am asking.

I would want to feel pain. To feel a glimpse of what my Savior felt because of my sin. I'm sure it would be sanctifying.

But I say this as a young man, so...


----------



## kvanlaan (Nov 14, 2009)

My grandfather was mostly out of it near the end, but when I read Bible verses to him in Dutch, I could see his lips moving - he was reading along in his head! I would definitely second Pastor Lewis' experience on this, anecdotal though it may be.


----------



## Rich Koster (Nov 14, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> Leslie said:
> 
> 
> > Would you prefer excruciating, intractable pain to comfortable oblivion? Come on. Do to others what you would want done.
> ...



I have lived with chronic pain for several years. There is nothing sanctifying about it. It is a steady reminder to ask for mercy. Why would you want to attempt to bear something Jesus took on, for you? The above comment seems rather self-righteous from my prospective.


----------



## Montanablue (Nov 14, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> Leslie said:
> 
> 
> > Would you prefer excruciating, intractable pain to comfortable oblivion? Come on. Do to others what you would want done.
> ...



I don't say this to be disrespectful, but I wonder how much pain you have experienced. Its an easy thing to say that you want to feel pain when you are free of it. 

I also wonder if its a little dangerous to want to "feel Christ's pain." First of all, I don't think its possible. Second, it seems like its an easy road from that to self-flagellation.

Edit: Cross posted with Rich. Oops...


----------



## Romans922 (Nov 14, 2009)

see the word, 'glimpse'.


----------



## Rich Koster (Nov 14, 2009)

Comparing unnecessary suffering to Jesus bearing the sins of the world in his flesh is mixing apples and oranges


----------



## Kevin (Nov 14, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> Leslie said:
> 
> 
> > Would you prefer excruciating, intractable pain to comfortable oblivion? Come on. Do to others what you would want done.
> ...



Brother, in all sincerity, that comment kind of weirded me out.

To feel pain would increase sanctification? That is one of the oddest views of sanctification that I think I have ever heard. 

Do you think then that since sanctification is to be desired & sought after, that christians aught to seek out pain? Should we cause ourselves pain? Were the Flagelents more "sanctified" then others of their time?

I really hope that I misunderstood what you meant.


----------



## Wayne (Nov 14, 2009)

PCA position paper on heroic measures:

PCA Position Papers: Heroic Measures (1988)


----------



## Brian Withnell (Nov 14, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> Another thread got me thinking about this (and I mean no disrespect to anyone who might disagree with me or who has just made decisions about this) issue of the end of life and the use of medicine to bring comfort.
> 
> Sometimes in the use of using the medicine to bring comfort it places the person receiving the medicine in many different scenarios (because of the medicine that is bringing comfort):
> 
> ...



Perhaps something of my experience may be of benefit.

My first love, and wife of nearly 20 years, died after fighting cancer for more than three years. She had during that time many times of prayer, seeking God's face, seeing her life in the light of it being near certain that she would die, and then certain ... barring extraordinary providence ... that she would soon be with her Lord. On the last full of her life, somewhere about 8 or 9 in the morning, the pain she was suffering was literally unbearable. She started with quite moaning, but as the day passed, she was in such pain that she was literally screaming in pain almost continually, even with more pain killers than what would allow her to be fully conscious. That went on all day until almost 11:00pm. Then her doctors finally found a combination of pain killers that induced coma, and her screaming stopped. About 3 hours later, she passed from this life into the arms of her Lord.

I can see absolutely no benefit for her to experience such pain. Truth be told, I cannot see how that has worked for the good of either her, the children, me, her family, or anyone else ... even though I know from faith that God works all things (including her time of pain) together for the good of those that love him. Job never learned why he suffered (as far as we know) and I do not believe I will ever know why she suffered.

Am I grateful that such drugs exist and do I think they should be used?


----------



## Kevin (Nov 14, 2009)

Andrew,

A few comments about your "sanctification" post above.

1. Your stated view is contrary to the " 2nd greatest commandment". We may not desire evil to befall our neighbors. Unmedicated pain is by definition an evil that may befall one.

2. Your stated view is also contrary to the express teaching of scripture as found in Prov. The word of God teaches us that we are to medicate those that are in physical (& mental!) pain.

3. Your stated view also reduces the sufferings of Christ to a "mere" human pain.

4. Your stated view also elevates the nature of ordinary human pain to the level of the sufferings of Christ.

5. Your view allows that a person may increase their sanctification by violating one of the commands of God. cf WSC Q. 69. What is forbidden in the sixth commandment?
A. The sixth commandment forbiddeth the taking away of our own life, or the life of our neighbor, unjustly, or whatsoever tendeth thereunto.

5. Your view assumes a definition of sanctification contrary to that agreed to by orthodox christians. cf WSC Q. 35. What is sanctification?
A. Sanctification is the work of God’s free grace,[97] whereby we are renewed in the whole man after the image of God,[98] and are enabled more and more to die unto sin, and live unto righteousness.

6. Your view sounds very much like that held by notorious heretical groups in the history of the church. [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagellant]Flagellant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]


----------



## Edward (Nov 14, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> Leslie said:
> 
> 
> > Would you prefer excruciating, intractable pain to comfortable oblivion? Come on. Do to others what you would want done.
> ...



I've only experienced severe pain once in my life, and I'll assure you that there was not one thing sanctifying about it. Being told that further treatment would involve surgery under general anesthesia was quite welcome. And I don't want to even imagine what it would have felt with without the iv, oral and local painkillers that I was on at the time.


----------



## EricP (Nov 15, 2009)

Maybe a couple of different perspectives, from a Christian and medical standpoint. In response to Andrew's initial post, I believe there's more to analgesia (narcotic or otherwise) than coma or being unaware of one's faculties. The proper use of narcotics (maximum case scenario) for severe pain, whether it be for a terminal end-of-life condition or not, can often leave folks better rested and MORE alert--chronic use of narcotics often leads to less euphoria, hence the escalation of dose when used for the euphoria, not pain relief (i.e. standard Keith Richards-ish heroin use). Overdose is a different issue, but again chronic narcotic use raises tolerance so OD becomes a bit less likely. Properly supervised and administered narcotics can help folks continue to lead their lives to a degree not possible without them, for as long as possible; and when normal life is no longer possible, can be a source of tremendous rest and relief for both patient and family, and actually improve what "quality time" might be left.
Other issue: is pain, of itself, sanctifying? I'd suggest "no". Becoming more holy makes us sinners suffer on many levels--as separation from our cherished idols is difficult at best--often physical pain isn't one of those levels. As the Puritans were apt to point out, all of the scourgings and other extremes the Catholics of their time were wont to put themselves through accomplished nothing of themselves; self-denying at any level is only beneficial for us when informed and instructed in Christ's school, not our own, or anyone else's. And as well pointed out elsewhere, if we think that the pain we suffer in life in any way can be equated with, compared to, added to, or whatever else to Christ's suffering on the cross, we're wrong; if our pain helps us sympathize with our savior, helps us better understand our sinful condition, etc then perhaps even its horrors can be redeemed to God's purposes for our lives.


----------



## Brian Withnell (Nov 16, 2009)

Andrew,

One more thing here. If you are in fact at the end of your life, you need not worry about pain being sanctifying ... as soon as you pass from this life to the next, you will in fact be fully, completely, perfectly sanctified. The brief time before you die will be of little consequence, and the difference between a day (or week, or even month) of pain and the sanctification that will occur at the instant of death is so great that I have no doubt the pain one might suffer will be of little consequence. 

While you are here, of course pursue sanctification, but leave strong drink to those in pain.

Brian


----------



## Scott1 (Nov 16, 2009)

Kevin said:


> From Prov 31 (hcs)
> 
> 6 Give beer to one who is dying,
> and wine to one whose life is bitter. (I)
> ...



Having looked at the context of these passages in Proverbs, and having read Mr. Henry's commentary on them, I don't think they are commending liquor (or drugs) for the purpose of alleviating pain.

Rather, they teach the exact opposite- they are condemning drunkenness, idolatry and the seeking of escape from the lot in life one is given (by God) as a very "low" form of behavior, not at all fitting for kings, let alone for God's people.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/henry/mhc3.Prov.xxxii.html?highlight=proverbs,31#highlight




> Matthew Henry
> Commentary on the Whole Bible, Vol. III
> 
> .....
> ...


----------



## Kevin (Nov 16, 2009)

Scott, you are mistaken.

Mr Henry does not specificly address the issue of giving strong drink to those in pain. He skips that to focus on the warning to kings to avoid drunkeness.

These issues are entirely distinct from one another.

If you intend to champion teetotalism from the scriptures I would suggest that you begin with a passage that does not commend the use of wine & strong drink as a benifit.


----------



## Brian Withnell (Nov 16, 2009)

Scott1 said:


> Kevin said:
> 
> 
> > From Prov 31 (hcs)
> ...



I would tend to disagree. The passage says the king should not drink, that the appropriate reason to drink is for those that are dying. The whole point, regardless of what Mr. Henry says, is the appropriate use is for those that are dying. The context clearly is specifying that drinking to get drunk is not for the king, and the Psalmist contrasts the king with those that are dying. Here there is a clear distinction presented ... yes, we should not desire strong drink as the rule of the day, but if someone is wounded or dying, then they are the perfect use of what numbs the pain. This is clearly what is being said. There is no reasonable way to read it otherwise unless the person is bringing their theology to the passage, not allowing the passage to speak for itself.


----------



## Scott1 (Nov 16, 2009)

Kevin said:


> Scott, you are mistaken.
> 
> Mr Henry does not specificly address the issue of giving strong drink to those in pain. He skips that to focus on the warning to kings to avoid drunkeness.
> 
> ...



The cited passages do not address abstinence, either. 

They really address the high standards of behavior for the king, and, by analogy for all believers. In context, I do not understand them as a command to promote drunkeness in order for others, except the king, to eliminate their pain.


It may have been a cultural practice to do that at that time, but in no way do these passages command that.

On the topic generally, our Lord was offered a drug (hyssop) while on the cross to numb what could of been on the most incredible of pain. Although hard for us to relate to- he did not take it. It seems there is something in His example there.

There are valid medical benefits in alleviating pain, but the Proverbs passages used here are about alcoholism, a misuse of something as a contrast with right behavior. They are not dealing with the King abstaining, while the peasant is expected to drown his sorrows in alcohol. 

The context of the two verses cited here in Proverbs is high moral character for a king, but by analogy, to God's people.


----------



## Galatians220 (Nov 16, 2009)

Palliative care is being considered for me. I will prayerfully and cheerfully take it. The Lord is mine; _blessed be His name!_ He would have me to be comfortable after these many years (nearly four decades now, since I was virtually a kid) of suffering... I am so very grateful that *He chose me to be His own.* He forgave me; He healed my worst afflictions! The Lord does provide doctors and wonderful ways of alleviating severe, intractable, temporal pain and other miserable symptoms. 

There are two things I want nothing to do with (because I've "been there"): bleeding out from a non-existent platelet count, and hemolytic transfusion reactions. Both are horrifying ways to go if you happen to be conscious while they're occurring; they're both possibilities if someone countermands the written instructions I've left.

I see nothing wrong with anyone passing into his or her Savior's arms having taken advantage of sedation, strong analgesics and/or whatever.

Margaret


----------



## Kevin (Nov 16, 2009)

Scott,

Is it the phrase "give him beer" or "let him drink" that you find condemn the practice of giving alcohol to those that are suffering?


----------



## Jennie (Nov 17, 2009)

It's 11:05 pm here at my house. At 8:30 tonight one of my cousins died after years of suffering from Huntington's. His pain was both physical and mental. Tonight when I saw him lying still in his favorite recliner, no longer struggling to breathe, I only wanted to thank God for his life and for the peace he has entered. If you have a spare moment to pray, please remember his family. We didn't know it would come this soon.


----------



## Kevin (Nov 17, 2009)

Jennie, may the peace of God, & the love of Christ, & the comfort of his Holy Spirit rest & abide on you at this time of your loss.

My prayer is that you and your family will know the peace of God at this time.

Here is the word of God;

2 Corinthians 5
Our Heavenly Dwelling
1For we know that if(A) the tent that is(B) our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God,(C) a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2For in this tent(D) we groan, longing to(E) put on our heavenly dwelling, 3if indeed by putting it on[a] we may not be found naked. 4For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal(F) may be swallowed up by life. 5He who has prepared us for this very thing is God,(G) who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6So we are always of good courage. We know that(H) while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7for(I) we walk by faith, not(J) by sight. 8Yes, we are of good courage, and we(K) would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to(L) please him. 10For(M) we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ,(N) so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.


----------



## Scott1 (Nov 17, 2009)

> Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Concise)
> 
> Proverbs 31
> 
> ...


.


----------



## Augusta (Nov 17, 2009)

I think many are being unfair to Andrew. There are many verses that speak of suffering purifying us and sanctifying us. We are tried with fire and the furnace and the rod of the Lord. It is not self-flagellation if it has come upon you providencially. 

It's not fair to him or showing Christian charity to assume the worst in his motive. Paul revelled in his sufferings because they were for Christ. I have chronic pain also and it is horrible and I can't stand it very long. When it comes, it does drive me to Christ like nothing else and I am thankful for that because I need that clarity that comes with suffering occasionally. 

I think we should be charitable here and not jump to conclusions.

2 Corinthians 4:16-18 (King James Version)

16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. 

17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 

18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

1 Peter 5:10
10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Corinthians 1:4-6 (King James Version)

4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. 

5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ. 

6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.


----------



## Rich Koster (Nov 17, 2009)

Matt 26:39-42 Does Jesus *seek *unnecessary suffering? NO. First he prays for an alternative. He submits to that suffering to accomplish his fathers will. The agony that Jesus suffered is far greater than anything we could imagine or bear, but he walked into it with full knowledge. Make sure it is God's will for you to suffer extremely before taking it on yourself.


----------



## Brian Withnell (Nov 17, 2009)

Augusta said:


> I think many are being unfair to Andrew. There are many verses that speak of suffering purifying us and sanctifying us. We are tried with fire and the furnace and the rod of the Lord. It is not self-flagellation if it has come upon you providencially.



If pain comes upon us unbidden, and we have no choice but to bear up under it, then I would certainly agree. If we have a choice, it would seem to me to be a mercy that God has provided means for mitigating pain. While it is not self-flagellation, speaking of denial of comfort to those that are in pain and obviously going to die seems cruel rather than something that will work toward sanctification. Those that are about to die will be sanctified quickly enough. While the encouragement to bear up under pain, knowing that it produces sanctification, is present, it appears to me to be encouragement to those that have no choice; they either bear the pain graciously, or they curse God for their situation.


----------



## Puritan Sailor (Nov 17, 2009)

In defense of my friend Andrew, he was speaking about his personal point of view, not trying to impose it on everyone else. And he's not the only one who's articulated that position. If I remember correctly (anyone please correct me if I'm wrong), Dr. Martin Lloyd-Jones also held the same position, and refused pain medication on his death bed because he wanted his faculties engaged in order to enjoy the conscious communion of Christ during his experience of death. I'm not saying that position is for everyone or for every situation. I can't say I would argue for it myself just yet. But let's not get so judgmental until you've heard the brother out. Christ does meet us in our suffering in a special way. What a delight it would be to have the ability to consciously enjoy it, crossing the river of death in close communion with Christ, rather than having the experience blurred through the cloudiness of pain medication. But I speak only for myself here. I'm sure I may have a different point of view if I were suffering under severe cancer. And I know the Father would not think less of me for needing some alleviation. I'm righteous and always acceptable in God's sight because of Christ's righteousness, not because of my ability to endure pain.


----------



## Scott1 (Nov 17, 2009)

It's interesting. A recent sermon on Romans 8 mentioned that God uses two things in our sanctification more than any other. The Pastor said:

1) sin
2) suffering

We mean different things by the word "suffering" and it is helpful to differentiate between pain caused by direct physical ailment verses anguish pain in our minds and emotions.

Both are a part of life, most everyone will experience them intensely sometime in life. 

God's promise is not that we will not have it, the Lord had it beyond what any of us could bear. But He does promise He will be with us through it.

It's also comforting that we are promised He will not give us more than we can bear.


> 1 Corinthians 10:13
> 
> 13There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.



(It doesn't seem like it, at times, though).


----------



## darrellmaurina (Nov 18, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> Leslie said:
> 
> 
> > Would you prefer excruciating, intractable pain to comfortable oblivion? Come on. Do to others what you would want done.
> ...



I think the operative phrases in this are "I say this as a young man" and "I would want."

I share the view of several here who have pointed out that we may be "piling on" the brother. I didn't see him advocating self-flagellation or hair shirts as a quasi-Catholic way to experience Christ's sufferings. Furthermore, he's got a right to refuse pain medication if he so chooses, especially if he believes he wants to remain conscious on his deathbed. That's his choice, and not ours.

But I also suspect that as he gets older and sees his friends and family members go through some pretty serious sufferings, he may come to have a different view. Again, that's his choice, and palliative care to relieve pain is totally different from euthanasia, withholding food and water, assisted suicide, or any number of other evils the church must condemn in the strongest possible terms.


----------



## Brian Withnell (Nov 18, 2009)

darrellmaurina said:


> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> > Leslie said:
> ...



While I love Andrew, I tended to read his OP a little different than just his own personal desire ... from his OP


> If possible, shouldn't we be aware of what is going on? Shouldn't we want to have control of our faculties as we near death (if possible)?


The "we" in here and the "shouldn't" seem to point toward and "ought to" rather than "is it permissible". I'm willing to grant anyone the right to suffer as long as they do so quietly (if they are in a hospital).

I do have a concern about someone attempting to convince others that it is the "right thing" for anyone. For himself? More power to him.


----------



## Montanablue (Nov 18, 2009)

> The "we" in here and the "shouldn't" seem to point toward and "ought to" rather than "is it permissible". I'm willing to grant anyone the right to suffer as long as they do so quietly (if they are in a hospital).
> 
> I do have a concern about someone attempting to convince others that it is the "right thing" for anyone. For himself? More power to him.



I read the OP the same way. I might not have been as concerned except for the fact that he is a pastor and I would assume would be counseling his parishioners in these situations. I've seen this before. My mother almost died when I was a teenager (colon cancer) and suffered enormously - physically as well as emotionally - and I remember our pastor (who had experienced very little suffering by his own admission) telling her what a gift her suffering was and wishing out loud that it could have fallen on him or his wife instead. This was complete poppycock - what our family went through wasn't a "gift," it was the result of a world tainted by sin.


----------



## a mere housewife (Nov 18, 2009)

I think it's a good thing to consider, though having had cause to consider it I wholly agree that pallliative care preserves dignity (suffering can be an extreme indignity: and one can in many cases barely string conscious thoughts together in any case). I have been so much better of late, but have in the past regularly been in pain so that I couldn't lift a finger to dial a phone for help, or lift my head to save myself from drowning in the tub, or raise my voice -- or bear the sound waves of anyone else's. I did indeed meet Christ in that pain after some years of regular intervals with it, when I began to understand some things I find difficult to express; and it is not something I can regret -- when I stopped regretting, I also stopped fearing it somehow. However I think when one is driven to that extreme, it is highly unlikely that one would not take pain medication (I always did, and now pre-emptively do). Your body is practically in shock already -- 'the eyes can see the colors, but the colors blend before they focus into sense'; people aren't strong enough to hang onto what is ultimately not a necessary article of faith beyond such a point: we weren't made that strong. If someone were torturing you and offered to stop -- not at the cost of renouncing your faith, simply at the cost of sleep -- one probably wouldn't say, 'no, go on, so that I can be conscious to meet my Saviour' --you would recognise your Saviour in the salvation of release from suffering (and it is a pretty glorious recognition . This too is a way of being conscious of and meeting God: being delivered. 'I will lay me down in peace and sleep' is also in the Psalms. We are given grace to bear what we must, but in general I am relieved to think that probably, when a fellow creature has stamina left to refuse pain medication, he or she is not at the point of extreme pain where all that is unnecessary for the soul to hang onto is simply incomprehensible and anguishing noise.

I would personally be far more upset if having been through such an ordeal, someone gave me a drug to wipe out my memory of it, as I have heard of in a few cases. I have learned things I value very much from pain -- that life is worth it, for instance . But I would be extremely hesitant to decide such questions for anyone else.

Jennie, I hate to simply insert this at the bottom of a post as if it were merely an aside. Please do know we are praying with you and your family, and rejoicing in God's great deliverance of your cousin from so much suffering.


----------



## JennyG (Nov 19, 2009)

There's an old Harvest hymn:

_...Oh by each mercy sent us
And by each grief and pain,
By blessings like the sunshine, 
And sorrows like the rain,

Our barren hearts make fruitful;
From every sin set free:
That we at last, rejoicing,
Our sheaves may bring to Thee._


----------

