# Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS)



## Emmanuel

Is anyone on here a member of a WELS congregation?
Does anyone know how solid they are?


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## DavidinKnoxville

I have attended a WELS service in the area. I have some good friends that are WELS.I can tell you that WELS is one of the stricter Luthern Synods. Very conservative and evangelical(in a good way). If I lived in an area that had limited options I would consider a local WELS church to attend.


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## JM

I had net dialogue with a member of WELS, a young guy, very zealous. He seemed like a Fundamentalist in a way. They are close communion. You have to be WELS or ELS to share the Lord's Supper with them. 


What's the Difference Between WELS, ELCA, and LCMS? : Living Bold
WELS and ELCA

ELCA logoThe leading theologians of the ELCA have abandoned confessional Lutheranism and have attacked and undermined some of the most basic doctrines of Scripture. Although the ELCA may give some lip service to Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions, the doctrine of the confessions are not maintained. There may still be a few "conservative" pastors in the ELCA, but they are members of a church body that tolerates false doctrine. Below are listed some teachings of WELS and corresponding false teaching tolerated in the ELCA.

1. WELS teaches that the Bible is the verbally inspired and inerrant Word of God. Most pastors in the ELCA hold to the view that the Bible contains many errors.

2. WELS teaches that Jesus' words and actions as reported in the Gospels are true and accurate history. The ELCA tolerates the teaching that Jesus did not say or do many of the things ascribed to him in the Gospels.

3. WELS teaches that Genesis 1-3 is a factual, historical account and that Adam and Eve were real people. Most pastors in the ELCA seem to hold to the teaching that Genesis 1-3 is a myth.

4. WELS teaches that Jesus' death was a true payment for the sins of the world. The ELCA tolerates the teaching that the "theory" that Jesus' death was a payment for sin is one of several theories which could explain his death.

5. WELS teaches that eternal life is possible only through faith in Jesus. The ELCA tolerates the teaching that it is possible to be saved without faith in Christ.

6. WELS teaches that extramarital sex and homosexuality are sins. The ELCA tolerates the teaching that extramarital sex and homosexuality may be all right if practiced in a loving relationship.

7. WELS teaches that churches must agree on all doctrines of Scripture before they can practice church fellowship together. The ELCA teaches that it is not necessary or possible to agree on all doctrines of Scripture. Fellowship is practiced without regard to doctrinal differences.

8. WELS teaches that it would be contrary to Scripture for a woman to serve as a pastor. The ELCA teaches that what the Bible has to say about the role of man and woman in the church has no authority today. Therefore women may serve as pastors.


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## yeutter

WELS and ELS and the CLC [Church of the Lutheran Confession] strictly subscribe to the Book of Concord.
WELS congregations are governed by elders who with the Pastor handle most of the affairs of the congregation. The elders bring many issues back to congregational meetings. The men who have made profession of faith and been confirmed may vote at congregational meetings.


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## SolaScriptura

See HERE from the LCMS website... 

I've got a couple friends who are LCMS chaplains and a friend who is an LCMS pastor and an uncle-in-law who is a retired LCMS minister... all 4 of these men have said virtually synomymous things:

1. Regarding fellowship, WELS folks will pray FOR anyone, but they won't pray WITH anyone who isn't WELS (not even LCMS). 
2. Regarding women voting... forget about it in the church, and while I've never talked to a WELS member, my LCMS minister friends have said that the WELS goes so far as to initiate church discipline on a woman who votes in a civil election.
3. Regarding relationship to the government - they've told me that the WELS forbids not only receiving support from the government, but also being employed by it. (My friends agreed that this sounds more anabaptist than Lutheran... one of my friends would have loved to join the WELS rather than the LCMS, but his disagreement with them on that point made it an impossibility... and them unwilling to even pray with him.)


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## JM

Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS) | Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod

Why do you think WELS has preserved conservatism and LCMS has departed from it?

Do you think LCMS will split in a conservative and liberal part in the future when it comes to the issue of woman ordination?

What is WELS doing to "help the LCMS to come back to their roots," or does the development in LCMS not matter to WELS?
Answer: 

Admitting that my answers to your questions are subjective and that differences of opinion will easily be found, I'll offer some personal comments. But you and other interested people do well to read more thorough works available. Recently published books would include "Synodical Conference: Ecumenical Endeavor" by Armin Schuetze and "Tale of Two Synods" by Mark Braun. The older but helpful "Anatomy of an Explosion" by Kurt Marquardt is also recommended.

Factors in the loss of confessional integrity in the LCMS would include (1) the inroads of the historical-critical approach to interpreting the Bible, especially among their theological professors and pastors; (2) the hesitancy to exercise internal discipline when error surfaces, often resulting from the idea that only a local congregation could/should initiate discipline even when high-profile and powerful leaders are involved and often resulting from a tendency in Missouri to care almost exclusively about one's own parish and let others do their own thing; (3) the sheer size of the LCMS, which organizationally and administratively makes things complex, coupled with the historic tendency of the LCMS to stress constitutional procedure even when doing so may obscure or delay action on more urgent theological or doctrinal emergencies; (4) the decision to tolerate changes in fellowship practices [e.g., prayer fellowship with heterodox and "levels of fellowship"] that fuel toleration of doctrinal differences and often at a "slow" rate. Theological foundations are being weakened slowly but not dramatically as when the deity of Christ or justification by faith is attacked frontally. A false security often results.

Why has WELS been spared so much of this? The only adequate answer is the grace of God. Also, our ministerial education system remains intact [at least at present] and our teachers are united in holding to our doctrinal heritage; we are much smaller and may more easily monitor and confront error when it surfaces [and, yes, it does occasionally]; and we have been able to learn the high cost of failing to exercise internal discipline by observing what has happened and still happens in our much larger former sister synod. They have unintentionally served us in this.

I personally do not believe there will be a major split in the LCMS over the ordination of women. I don't even know if they will ordain women. They seem fairly content or comfortable with their current level of doctrinal compromise in allowing women some measure of exercising authority over men in the church. Also, I believe the majority of truly conservative or orthodox pastors and congregations have already left the LCMS or have chosen to hunker down to protect their own parish as long as they can. And they will die or retire before they do much else.

WELS--and I really hope this is true--is keeping LCMS people as well as all other professing Christians in their daily intercessions. We also, on the synod as well as local level, stand ready to offer encouragement whenever asked or invited to do so. (The recently publicized declining of an invitation for our synod president to meet with the LCMS president should not be understood as an unwillingness to encourage or be of help. This decision was made in the light of previous pronouncements by Missouri leadership at these meetings that forbade discussion of what we consider crucial issues, the theological behavior of the current LCMS leadership that is clearly not interested in a return to the old Synodical Conference standards, and the concern that without adequate opportunity for explanation about public dialog, spiritual offense might result.)


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## Berean

> WELS forbids not only receiving support from the government, but also _being employed by it_.



Therefore there are no WELS military chaplains?


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## SolaScriptura

Berean said:


> WELS forbids not only receiving support from the government, but also _being employed by it_.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Therefore there are no WELS military chaplains?
Click to expand...

 
No. What the WELS does is ordain a chaplain who serves the military community by planting churches near bases, but the chaplain isn't an employee of the government. Watch this WELS produced video to get a glimpse of what they do in Europe... http://vimeo.com/7522959

Or view this page for an overview of WELS ministry to the military: Click HERE.


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## ericfromcowtown

Today we stopped by a local coffee shop and noticed that a store-front church plant was next door,and that the sign on the church door directed people to enter via the coffee shop. Googling the church when I got home I saw that it was Tree of Life Lutheran, and part of WELS. The coffee shop was affiliated with the church and is apparently used as means of community outreach, evangelizing, etc... What's "funny" is that the coffee shop included a shelf of used books (consignment), including books on Yoga, Jewish mysticism, and a variety of other "new agey" subjects. That's a weird fit for a supposedly conservative denomination, isn't it?


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## Philip

> 1. Regarding fellowship, WELS folks will pray FOR anyone, but they won't pray WITH anyone who isn't WELS (not even LCMS).
> 2. Regarding women voting... forget about it in the church, and while I've never talked to a WELS member, my LCMS minister friends have said that the WELS goes so far as to initiate church discipline on a woman who votes in a civil election.
> 3. Regarding relationship to the government - they've told me that the WELS forbids not only receiving support from the government, but also being employed by it. (My friends agreed that this sounds more anabaptist than Lutheran... one of my friends would have loved to join the WELS rather than the LCMS, but his disagreement with them on that point made it an impossibility... and them unwilling to even pray with him.)



These practices would cause me at least serious hesitation before joining, as they (I believe) violate both letter and spirit of Christ's prayer for the Church in John 17.


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## JM

Christ's prayer for unity is real.

WELS believes they are fulfilling the letter and spirit by gathering with only with those who share real unity of belief.


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## Staphlobob

Having been thrown out of the ELCA in '07 (and happily Presbyterian since then, thank you very much), I can only say that you're accurate re their beliefs in comparison to the WELS. The ELCA's "authority" is, as with others, merely themselves.


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## KSon

Like the LCMS, WELS presents this pluralistic belief in their doctrine:


We believe that also through the Sacrament of Baptism the Holy Spirit applies the gospel to sinners, giving them new life (Titus 3:5) and cleansing them from all sin (Acts 2:38). The Lord points to the blessing of Baptism when he promises, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mark 16:16). We believe that the blessing of Baptism is meant for all people (Matthew 28:19), including infants. Infants are born sinful (John 3:6) and therefore need to be born again, that is, to be brought to faith, through Baptism (John 3:5).



and 


We believe that individuals receive this free gift of forgiveness not on the basis of their own works, but only through faith (Ephesians 2:8,9). Justifying faith is trust in Christ and his redemptive work. This faith justifies not because of any power it has in itself, but only because of the salvation prepared by God in Christ, which it embraces (Romans 3:28; 4:5). On the other hand, although Jesus died for all, Scripture says that "whoever does not believe will be condemned" (Mark 16:16). Unbelievers forfeit the forgiveness won for them by Christ (John 8:24).

I appreciate all of their outward conformity to the appearance of orthodoxy, but a statement of faith that affirms baptismal regeneration certainly leaves them outside of the bounds of true orthodoxy.


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## SolaScriptura

JM said:


> Christ's prayer for unity is real.
> 
> WELS believes they are fulfilling the letter and spirit by gathering with only with those who share real unity of belief.



Real in regards to your first sentence, yes. Real in regards to your second? I disagree. If you want to get me to agree with it then in your second sentence change the word "real" to "monolithic uniformity of thought down to the jot and tittle."


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## Philip

JM said:


> Christ's prayer for unity is real.
> 
> WELS believes they are fulfilling the letter and spirit by gathering with only with those who share real unity of belief.


 
That kind of unity is simply impossible in a fallen world. When Christ prayed for unity, he meant unity of spirit, not of every little particular doctrine---even we on the PB don't agree on everything. All confessions constitute some sort of middle ground of those who created them.


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## JM

Ok, WELS believes they are fulling the letter and spirit by gathering with only those who share uniformity of thought down to the jot and tittle. They are not willing to set aside what they believe is true at the Lord's Table for pretend unity.

---------- Post added at 10:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 PM ----------




P. F. Pugh said:


> JM said:
> 
> 
> 
> Christ's prayer for unity is real.
> 
> WELS believes they are fulfilling the letter and spirit by gathering with only with those who share real unity of belief.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That kind of unity is simply impossible in a fallen world. When Christ prayed for unity, he meant unity of spirit, not of every little particular doctrine---even we on the PB don't agree on everything. All confessions constitute some sort of middle ground of those who created them.
Click to expand...

 
Whether or not it's possible or impossible is not what we are discussing. We are discussing what WELS teaches and believes.


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## SolaScriptura

JM said:


> Ok, WELS believes they are fulling the letter and spirit by gathering with only those who share uniformity of thought down to the jot and tittle. They are not willing to set aside what they believe is true at the Lord's Table for pretend unity.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 10:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P. F. Pugh said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JM said:
> 
> 
> 
> Christ's prayer for unity is real.
> 
> WELS believes they are fulfilling the letter and spirit by gathering with only with those who share real unity of belief.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That kind of unity is simply impossible in a fallen world. When Christ prayed for unity, he meant unity of spirit, not of every little particular doctrine---even we on the PB don't agree on everything. All confessions constitute some sort of middle ground of those who created them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Whether or not it's possible or impossible is not what we are discussing. We are discussing what WELS teaches and believes.
Click to expand...

 
You are correct... thank you for the reminder! It is hard for me to discuss what someone believes without automatically criticizing what I believe is wrong about their belief.


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## Kaalvenist

As far as I can determine, WELS maintains that,

1. An important part of church fellowship is fellowship in the truth.
2. That truth is defined as "all the counsel of God" (Acts 20:27), summarized (though not exclusively) in the historic doctrinal standards of the Lutheran churches.
3. Church fellowship is a fellowship in all the ordinances of worship.
4. Therefore, they will not participate in ordinances of worship -- including "altar fellowship" (Table fellowship), pulpit fellowship, prayer fellowship, etc. -- with individuals or churches who reject their historical doctrinal standards.

I must admit that, with the exception of the adherence to the Lutheran confessions, such a concept appeals to my reasoning. I've never seen a solid argument for open communion, or for non-confessional church membership. The WELS concept is a more all-embracing position, viewing "fellowship" and "worship" as all-around concepts -- not particularizing _this_ level of doctrinal agreement necessary for _this_ or _that_ act of worship or fellowship, etc.

If you disagree with such a position, on what basis do you maintain such disagreement? What Scriptures would inveigh against this position? I ask these things with all seriousness; I would rather not be farther out on the sidelines than I already am, if not absolutely required to by the Word of God.

And simply saying "John 17" doesn't count as a Scriptural argument.


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## KaphLamedh

After researching, I have found out, that there´s very few issues that has common with calvinism and lutheran nowadays. Past was different, but now nearly all bigger lutheran "organisations" are too liberal. Smaller ones are much more conservative. Lutheran Heritage Found Lutheran Heritage Foundation is better one.


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## JM

KaphLamedh said:


> Lutheran Heritage Found Lutheran Heritage Foundation is better one.



Why?


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## jawyman

As a former WELSer I am enjoying the discussion.


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## KaphLamedh

JM said:


> KaphLamedh said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lutheran Heritage Found Lutheran Heritage Foundation is better one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why?
Click to expand...

 
Sorry, my mistake. I don´t mean that Lutheran Heritage Foundation is better than Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS), what I mean that LHF is better than Finnish Lutheran Church or ECLA or really big lutheran oraganisations. Those two are too liberal by accept woman as a leader or shepherd of church and accept marriage of homosexuals. Marriage of homosexuals is not possible in Finnish church, yet, but they are talking about it...
LHF is conservative and bible believing organisation.


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## Kaalvenist

Kaalvenist said:


> 4. Therefore, they will not participate in ordinances of worship -- including "altar fellowship" (Table fellowship), pulpit fellowship, prayer fellowship, etc. -- with individuals or churches who reject their historical doctrinal standards.
> 
> ...
> 
> If you disagree with such a position, on what basis do you maintain such disagreement?


Anyone?


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## Emmanuel

KSon said:


> Like the LCMS, WELS presents this pluralistic belief in their doctrine:
> 
> 
> We believe that also through the Sacrament of Baptism the Holy Spirit applies the gospel to sinners, giving them new life (Titus 3:5) and cleansing them from all sin (Acts 2:38). The Lord points to the blessing of Baptism when he promises, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mark 16:16). We believe that the blessing of Baptism is meant for all people (Matthew 28:19), including infants. Infants are born sinful (John 3:6) and therefore need to be born again, that is, to be brought to faith, through Baptism (John 3:5).
> 
> 
> 
> and
> 
> 
> We believe that individuals receive this free gift of forgiveness not on the basis of their own works, but only through faith (Ephesians 2:8,9). Justifying faith is trust in Christ and his redemptive work. This faith justifies not because of any power it has in itself, but only because of the salvation prepared by God in Christ, which it embraces (Romans 3:28; 4:5). On the other hand, although Jesus died for all, Scripture says that "whoever does not believe will be condemned" (Mark 16:16). Unbelievers forfeit the forgiveness won for them by Christ (John 8:24).
> 
> I appreciate all of their outward conformity to the appearance of orthodoxy, but a statement of faith that affirms baptismal regeneration certainly leaves them outside of the bounds of true orthodoxy.


This is disappointing.

Turns out there was an older discussion on PB that dealt with the issue of Sola Fide and baptismal regeneration in the Lutheran community. (Here)
Luther writes in the Small Catechism:
"It is not the water indeed that does them, but the word of God which is in and with the water, and faith, which trusts such word of God in the water. For without the word of God the water is simple water and no baptism. But with the word of God it is a baptism, that is, a gracious water of life and a washing of regeneration in the Holy Ghost, as St. Paul says, Titus, chapter three: By the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ, our Savior, that, being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying." Found here.

Thanks to everyone who responded to my question.


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