# Are Believers Totally Depraved?



## Romans922 (Apr 15, 2013)

We would all agree that Unbelievers are Totally Depraved, but what about Believers? 

For God's people they are able to seek God, do righteous acts, cry out "Abba", strive after godliness, make our calling/election sure, and also God's people have eternal life right now, as well as the have the fruit of the Spirit now. 

Yet I often hear Christian Calvinists claiming that God's people are totally depraved like unbelievers. That the only difference between a Christian and non-Christian is their standing before God in Christ, but the depth of their sin and the extent of their sin is just the same.


So what say you? [Posted to generate a good conversation and hopefully clarify for some who may be confused.]


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## Phil D. (Apr 15, 2013)

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come." 2 Cor. 5:17


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## Guido's Brother (Apr 15, 2013)

I think the Canons of Dort give a good answer to this question in chapter III/IV, article 11:

God carries out His good pleasure in the elect and works in them true conversion in the following manner. He takes care that the gospel is preached to them, and powerfully enlightens their minds by the Holy Spirit, so that they may rightly understand and discern the things of the Spirit of God. By the efficacious working of the same regenerating Spirit He also penetrates into the innermost recesses of man. He opens the closed and softens the hard heart, circumcises that which was uncircumcised, and instils new qualities into the will. He makes the will, which was dead, alive; which was bad, good; which was unwilling, willing; and which was stubborn, obedient. He moves and strengthens it so that, like a good tree, it may be able to produce the fruit of good works.


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## irresistible_grace (Apr 15, 2013)

I don't know about you but I am a "believer" and even as a regenerate Christian I am STILL "unable to contribute anything to my salvation." This is the doctrine of total depravity, is it not? 

"But if Christ is in you, *although the body is dead because of sin*, the Spirit is life because of righteousness"

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## irresistible_grace (Apr 15, 2013)

Guido's Brother said:


> I think the Canons of Dort give a good answer to this question in chapter III/IV, article 11:
> 
> God carries out His good pleasure in the elect and works in them true conversion in the following manner. He takes care that the gospel is preached to them, and powerfully enlightens their minds by the Holy Spirit, so that they may rightly understand and discern the things of the Spirit of God. By the efficacious working of the same regenerating Spirit He also penetrates into the innermost recesses of man. He opens the closed and softens the hard heart, circumcises that which was uncircumcised, and instils new qualities into the will. He makes the will, which was dead, alive; which was bad, good; which was unwilling, willing; and which was stubborn, obedient. He moves and strengthens it so that, like a good tree, it may be able to produce the fruit of good works.




The Dutch Reformers said it much better than I could!


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## Phil D. (Apr 15, 2013)

irresistible_grace said:


> even as a regenerate Christian I am STILL "unable to contribute anything to my salvation." This is the doctrine of total depravity, is it not?



While this truth is relative to the doctrine of total depravity, it certainly isn't a full description of it. Historically, the understanding of total depravity also incorporates the issue that persons are born into the world enslaved to the desire for and in the service of sin and, apart from the efficacious grace of God, utterly unable to choose to follow God or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered. This does not hold true for the truly regenerate. So with respect to the question in the OP, in my opinion, true believers are not comprehended in the doctrine of total depravity in the "same" sense as unbelievers.


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## littlepeople (Apr 15, 2013)

Seems to me it's both/and: "For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another". There is a sense in which it is true, and a sense in which it is not true. Andrew, I think those who would say they are totally depraved would not deny that "they are able to seek God, do righteous acts, cry out "Abba", strive after godliness, make our calling/election sure, and also God's people have eternal life right now, as well as the have the fruit of the Spirit now"

They just feel the real effects of an old-man in them who is very crucified, but also very present. I understand the point you are making, but in my experience it's a difference of emphasis, not of substance. I'm open to correction though


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## Jack K (Apr 15, 2013)

Romans922 said:


> Are Believers Totally Depraved?



Not in the TULIP sense. That's about our state before we come to Christ.

I've heard people use the phrase in other senses, though. Doing so is probably not the clearest way to communicate, but depending on what they mean by it, they may not be wrong theologically.




Romans922 said:


> I often hear Christian Calvinists claiming that God's people are totally depraved like unbelievers. That the only difference between a Christian and non-Christian is their standing before God in Christ, but the depth of their sin and the extent of their sin is just the same.



If someone said _that_, I'd certainly disagree. It's a no-brainer. What kind of cheap salvation would that be? If the extent of our sin is not lessened, either Christ has no power or he is not at work in us.

But... myself, I haven't heard a lot of Christian Calvinists say anything quite that extreme. I certainly haven't heard it often. And generally, I'm appreciative of a pastor who admits that believers may still struggle with ongoing sin in deep and profound ways.


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## arapahoepark (Apr 15, 2013)

Wasn't there a blogging war between Tullian and Reformation 21 about this very thing a couple months ago?


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## Jerusalem Blade (Apr 15, 2013)

I will list some Scriptures, and briefly comment:


*Matt 5:8* Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

*Luke 8:15* But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

*1 Tim 1:5* Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned

*Acts 11:24* For he [Barnabas] was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith:

*1 John 3:3* And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

*2 Tim 2:22 * Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

*Prov 22:11* He that loveth pureness of heart, for the grace of his lips the king shall be his friend.

*Psalm 32:1-2* Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

*Psalm 125:4 * Do good, O Lord, unto those that be good, and to them that are upright in their hearts.​

So what is a pure heart? One whose heart is open to the Lord, asking Him for a guileless spirit, honest about his or her sins and quick to repent; one who has a child-like dependence on the Saviour for all that is necessary to the spiritual life (and the material life as well); one who owns to the Lord his remaining corruption and abiding self-centeredness, remaining self-love and self-aggrandizing, etc etc, and asks the Lord Jesus to subdue all this – and beseeches Him for the graces of His Spirit to replace the ways of the "old man". 

If one makes this intimate communion and seeking of His righteousness in our lives the habit of one's life, this is to "put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness" *(Eph 4:24)*. So the answer is: No, believers are not at all totally depraved, though they do have to war against what depravity or corruption remains in them, seeking to put such things to death by the power of Christ's Spirit.


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## Contra_Mundum (Apr 15, 2013)

We must always realize that _*total*_ depravity doesn't mean "as bad as possible to be," but that the extent is complete; humans are by nature rotten from head to toe. And clearly, there are some persons who are--in part or whole--more far gone than others. And Death is the End State for every natural man.

The Christian is moving in another direction from the natural man. He's still corrupt, and his sinful condition means that of themselves none of his good works can bear a strict scrutiny. The sinfulness of them is his responsibility, however the goodness of them proceeds from the indwelling Spirit. The man is credited with them (as if Christ himself had perfectly done them), and his Lord gets the glory for them.

But though the Christian is corrupt, that corruption is _being transformed_ in the positive direction. But, it is still important to remember that this is a life-long work, and none of him will be _thoroughly_ sanctified until he leaves this life. All of him (total) will be under-improvement by Holy Spirit until that moment. The thief on the cross saw virtually nothing of "progress," but his set had been permanently changed. There are Christians who are saved out of a horribly corrupt life, and even after some time may still seem to be *more* totally depraved than a "good" person, who has not Christ, but lots of empathy and generosity, and may seem to be hardly showing his inherent corruption at all.

The big difference is where either person is headed. Is that "good" man heading toward permanent corruption? He's still totally depraved. Is that "bad" man heading toward permanent renewal? He's' got an impossibly long way to go (under his own power), but his "remaining corruption" (that is shot completely through him) is being attacked on every front by the gift of Holy Spirit.

This is the paradox: we naturally tend to think that "good person" can't be totally depraved, because look how well he's doing! And we tend to think that the Christian has to have made a "leap" out of his depravity, or he's probably not really a Christian yet--"he's not even as good as that non-believer."


In short, this is a discussion worth having. But let us not put the words "total depravity" to a cross-purpose with what they mean to convey (extent, not amount). The Christian life is one of constant mortification (of sin) and vivification (of Christ in us).


Heidelberg 60
Q. How are you righteous before God?
A. Only by true faith in Jesus Christ.[1] Although my conscience accuses me that I have grievously sinned against all God's commandments, have never kept any of them,[2] and am *still inclined to all evil*,[3] yet God, without any merit of my own,[4] out of mere grace,[5] imputes to me the perfect satisfaction, righteousness, and holiness of Christ.[6] He grants these to me as if I had never had nor committed any sin, and as if I myself had accomplished all the obedience which Christ has rendered for me,[7] if only I accept this gift with a believing heart.[8]
[1] Rom.3:21-28; Gal.2:16; Eph.2:8-9; Php.3:8-11. [2] Rom.3:9-10. [3] Rom.7:23. [4] Dt.9:6; Ezk.36:22; Tit.3:4-5. [5] Rom.3:24; Eph.2:8. [6] Rom.4:3-5; 2Cor.5:17-19; 1Jn.2:1-2. [7] Rom.4:24-25; 2Cor.5:21. [8] Jn.3:18; Act.16:30-31; Rom.3:22. 

Heidelberg 62
Q. But why can our good works not be our righteousness before God, or at least a part of it?
A. Because the righteousness which can stand before God's judgment must be absolutely perfect and in complete agreement with the law of God,[1] whereas *even our best works in this life are all imperfect and defiled with sin*.[2]
[1] Dt.27:26; Gal.3:10. [2] Is.64:6. 

Heidelberg 88
Q. What is the true repentance or conversion of man?
A. It is the dying-away of the old nature and the coming to life of the new.[1]
[1] Rom.6:1-11; 1Cor.5:7; 2Cor.5:17; Eph.4:22-24; Col.3:5-10.

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## Covenant Joel (Apr 15, 2013)

Tullian Tchividjian and Rick Phillips discussed this in some depth a while back. See my post here for a summary of their dialogue:

Roundup of Another Discussion on Sanctification | joelws.com


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## Rayn (Apr 16, 2013)

Thank you, Rev. Buchanan. I'm the converted pagan you referred to and it's great to know that I'm not without hope because



> He's' got an impossibly long way to go (under his own power), but his "remaining corruption" (that is shot completely through him) is being attacked on every front by the gift of Holy Spirit.



As for myself, I'm concerned when I encounter people who emphasize that Christians are _new, new, new!_ to the point that I wonder if they're even defining the law properly. They blithely skate over statements like "Christians desire God" and "Christians hate their sin" with no qualification whatsoever. At times the old man can be so influential that we hardly hear the spirit of God at all. At times we read Scripture and obtain no delight in it whatsoever, either from the promises or the commands. We hear of commands to watch and pray, but find ourselves distracted and cold. But the simple fact that we can even be aware that this is going on is the work of the Spirit opening our eyes to the law of God. Unbelievers perpetually continue under the yoke of sin and remain forever content in it. Though the believer may for a time even delight in evil, the Spirit will affect him, and he will see his heart's condition and mourn. This is exactly why Christ-centered preaching is so important. Christians will persevere no matter what, because God has promised it to them. Somehow or other, God will renew his work within Christians and complete what he started. But they will be greatly helped if they are aware that God is renewing his covenant of grace with them this Sunday in word and sacrament, as the Lord of the Covenant himself is truly but mystically present to signify and seal it even to our physical senses.

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## Semper Fidelis (Apr 16, 2013)

As has already been noted, it is critical to distinguish *Total Depravity* (also known as Radical Corruption) in an *unregenerate* person from *Indwelling Sin* in a *regenerate* person.

A person who is unregenerate is dead in his sin and trespasses. The Scriptures declare that such a man is a slave to sin.

A person who has been regenerated by the Spirit of God is alive in Christ and dead to sin and its enslaving power. The fact that he battles with Indwelling Sin (aka "The Old Man") is actually a _sign_ of Spiritual life. There is no battle against sin for a man who is a slave to sin.

A small part of Dordt was quoted. Let's quote it further.

*Regarding Total Depravity (or the Corruption of Original Sin* Dordt confesses:



> Article 1: The Effect of the Fall on Human Nature
> 
> Man was originally created in the image of God and was furnished in his mind with a true and salutary knowledge of his Creator and things spiritual, in his will and heart with righteousness, and in all his emotions with purity; indeed, the whole man was holy. However, rebelling against God at the devil's instigation and by his own free will, he deprived himself of these outstanding gifts. Rather, in their place he brought upon himself blindness, terrible darkness, futility, and distortion of judgment in his mind; perversity, defiance, and hardness in his heart and will; and finally impurity in all his emotions.
> 
> ...



But then Dordt speaks about conversion:



> Article 11: The Holy Spirit's Work in Conversion
> 
> Moreover, when God carries out this good pleasure in his chosen ones, or works true conversion in them, he not only sees to it that the gospel is proclaimed to them outwardly, and enlightens their minds powerfully by the Holy Spirit so that they may rightly understand and discern the things of the Spirit of God, but, by the effective operation of the same regenerating Spirit, he also penetrates into the inmost being of man, opens the closed heart, softens the hard heart, and circumcises the heart that is uncircumcised. He infuses new qualities into the will, making the dead will alive, the evil one good, the unwilling one willing, and the stubborn one compliant; he activates and strengthens the will so that, like a good tree, it may be enabled to produce the fruits of good deeds.
> 
> ...



In other words, the Corruption of Original Sin apart from conversion makes men _unwilling_ to believe the Gospel. In contrast, conversion frees men from this Corruption and makes him willing to believe.

To say that a Christian is Totally Depraved is thus an oxymoron. It is to say that a Christian cannot believe the Gospel because he is dead in his sins and trespasses.

Now, the scope of this post is not to discuss the battle with Indwelling Sin that remains in believers but I must emphasize again that Indwelling Sin and the imperfection of Sanctification in this life is NOT the same thing as Total Depravity.

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## PuritanCovenanter (Apr 16, 2013)

Well said and noted Rich. Thank you very much.


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## MW (Apr 16, 2013)

As noted, they could not be believers if they were totally depraved. But to add another important point, we should not heed what totally depraved people teach, Romans 16:17-18; 2 Peter 2; Jude.


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## Brock Organ (Apr 22, 2013)

Romans922 said:


> We would all agree that Unbelievers are Totally Depraved, but what about Believers?
> 
> For God's people they are able to seek God, do righteous acts, cry out "Abba", strive after godliness, make our calling/election sure, and also God's people have eternal life right now, as well as the have the fruit of the Spirit now.
> 
> ...



Here's the best organization that I've found; I think it answers what you're asking:

====
The Four States of Libertas Naturae

libertas naturae - (freedom of nature); "the liberty that is proper to a being given its particular nature." (Muller 176). The four states of libertas naturae are as follows:

a. libertas Adami - (freedom of Adam); "before the fall - this is the ability or power not to sin." (Muller 176).

b. libertas peccatorum - (freedom of sinners); a freedom that is proper to and confined within the limits of fallen nature and is therefore an absolute inability to do good or to act for the good with the sinner described as not able not to sin." (Muller 176).

c. libertas fidelium - (freedom of the faithful); "a freedom of those regenerated by the Holy Spirit that is proper to the regenerate nature and is characterized by the ability to sin and to do good." (Muller 176).

d. libertas gloriae - (freedom of glory); "a freedom proper to the fully redeemed nature of [the blessed in heaven], who, as residents of the heavenly kingdom are now characterized by the inability to sin." (Muller 176).

The four states of man in relation to sin enumerated by Augustine of Hippo: (a) able to sin, able not to sin (posse peccare, posse non peccare); (b) not able not to sin (non posse non peccare); (c) able not to sin (posse non peccare); and (d) unable to sin (non posse peccare). The first state corresponds to the state of man in innocency, before the Fall; the second the state of the natural man after the Fall; the third the state of the regenerate man; and the fourth the glorified man.

The Four States of Libertas Naturae


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