# like a dog retruns to his vomit...so does the Roman Church



## panta dokimazete (Feb 9, 2009)

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/nyregion/10indulgence.html?_r=1


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## LawrenceU (Feb 9, 2009)




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## Zenas (Feb 9, 2009)

> ...and reminding them of the church’s clout in mitigating the wages of sin.



Christ died for nothing. Shut down the forums, time to move on. Start buying your way out of sin.


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## matt01 (Feb 9, 2009)

It is very kind of them to offer this service. Why get something for free, when you can purchase it?



> Why are we bringing it back?” asked Bishop Nicholas A. DiMarzio of Brooklyn, who has embraced the move. “Because there is sin in the world.”
> 
> According to church teaching, even after sinners are absolved in the confessional and say their Our Fathers or Hail Marys as penance, they still face punishment after death, in Purgatory before they can enter heaven. In exchange for certain prayers, devotions or pilgrimages in special years, a Catholic can receive an indulgence, which reduces or erases that punishment instantly, with no formal ceremony or sacrament.





> ...it was interesting: I had a number of people come in and say, ‘Father, I haven’t been to confession in 20 years, but this’ ” — the availability of an indulgence — “ ‘made me think maybe it wasn’t too late.’ ”


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## jwithnell (Feb 9, 2009)

This has continued unabated outside the English speaking world. When I spent some time in Latin America, I discovered that if you had the money, you could make payment to the church and join a Good Friday parade where you beat yourself or showed other forms of penitence. The poor lined the streets to watch, wishing they had the money to join in. Sad!


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## Glenn Ferrell (Feb 9, 2009)

Do they have an Internet store?

Can they be found on E-bay?


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## ManleyBeasley (Feb 9, 2009)

*Sola scriptura. Sola Fide. Sola Gratia. Solus Christus. Soli Deo gloria.*


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## PresbyDane (Feb 9, 2009)

ManleyBeasley said:


> *Sola scriptura. Sola Fide. Sola Gratia. Solus Christus. Soli Deo gloria.*


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## Skyler (Feb 9, 2009)

Sola $$$$.


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## BobVigneault (Feb 9, 2009)

All I want to know is DO THEY TAKE PAYPAL?

My debt was way too big to ever pay back. Fortunately I got a bail out and my grandchildren won't have to pay for it either.


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## kvanlaan (Feb 9, 2009)

Wasn't 2006 the year of the indulgence, or something like that? Are they just filling the coffers again?


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## Augusta (Feb 9, 2009)

Notice that this is for a limited time only so act now. 

How does one achieve complete detachment from any inclination to sin???




> It appeared prominently on the Web site of the Diocese of Brooklyn, which announced that any Catholic could receive an indulgence at any of six churches on any day, or at dozens more on specific days, by fulfilling the basic requirements: going to confession, receiving holy communion, saying a prayer for the pope and achieving *“complete detachment from any inclination to sin.”*


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## Rich Koster (Feb 9, 2009)

I thought the traditional "mass card" was a type of indulgence for the deceased. If so, the indulgence was stealthfully in effect, just the terms and conditions have changed
Do they post a suggested donation schedule for different sins?
Is "two fer" Tuesdays in effect?
Can we make reservations for Mardi Gras?


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## Skyler (Feb 9, 2009)

Augusta said:


> Notice that this is for a limited time only so act now.
> 
> How does one achieve complete detachment from any inclination to sin???
> 
> ...



Simple. Just have the Church redefine "sin". After all, what the pope releases on earth will be released in heaven, right?


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## historyb (Feb 9, 2009)

They could have billy mays sell them or that guy that does shamwow. wow what a sham!


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## AThornquist (Feb 9, 2009)

Oh my gosh Doug, a Billy Mays commercial would be so funny! All the guy does is scream into the mic, anyway.


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## Jesus is my friend (Feb 9, 2009)

Thanks for posting this,I run into a great number of Catholics here in New England and information like this helps me give them some truth,the majority have no idea what they believe,and when I point these things they are shocked,anyway I also find many willing to listen to what God in the Bible says,I'ts tough to be patient and loving when you read about the horrible lies thier fed,so sad
Grace and Peace to you


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## Theogenes (Feb 9, 2009)

In response maybe God will bring us a new Luther!


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## calgal (Feb 9, 2009)

Ev'ry time a coin in the coffer rings, another soul from Purgatory springs!


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Feb 9, 2009)

2 Thess 2, Rev 13


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## DMcFadden (Feb 9, 2009)

calgal said:


> Ev'ry time a coin in the coffer rings, another soul from Purgatory springs!



I looked into it and read the article in the OP. The idea of a "get out of hell free" card was almost too good to be true.  However, the price was too high . . .



> Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


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## Jon Lake (Feb 9, 2009)

Vatican City is in a Panic. They are deeply in the red for the first time in a while. They Have a large porfolio, but made some REALLY bad investments, they were one of the larger non Brokerage House holders that took a beating in the Hedge-Funds. Ouch! Only reason they trot this rot back out.


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## Theognome (Feb 9, 2009)

Jon Lake said:


> Vatican City is in a Panic. They are deeply in the red for the first time in a while. They Have a large porfolio, but made some REALLY bad investments, they were one of the larger non Brokerage House holders that took a beating in the Hedge-Funds. Ouch! Only reason they trot this rot back out.



Are you suggesting that they are behind in their mortgage on St Peters Cathedral? The horror! 

I wouldn't mind being the repo-man on that job.

Theognome


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## Jon Lake (Feb 9, 2009)

Theognome said:


> Jon Lake said:
> 
> 
> > Vatican City is in a Panic. They are deeply in the red for the first time in a while. They Have a large porfolio, but made some REALLY bad investments, they were one of the larger non Brokerage House holders that took a beating in the Hedge-Funds. Ouch! Only reason they trot this rot back out.
> ...


The artwork perhaps. The buildings, they need work. I would rip it down and build a condo....then try to pack it with well-heeled Reformed American Christians. THIS would amuse me.


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## BJClark (Feb 10, 2009)

Jon Lake;



> Vatican City is in a Panic. They are deeply in the red for the first time in a while. They Have a large porfolio, but made some REALLY bad investments, they were one of the larger non Brokerage House holders that took a beating in the Hedge-Funds. Ouch! Only reason they trot this rot back out.



Was the Pope taken in by Madoff??


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## CharlieJ (Feb 10, 2009)

I think there are some misunderstandings circulating in this thread. Specifically, they are the type of misunderstandings that make informed Catholics think Protestants are ignorant schismatics.

First, the sale of indulgences has been officially illegal since 1567. Yes, I know that there are back-door ways of getting them through monetary transaction, but they are granted through many other avenues like prayers, charity, and pilgrimage. 

Second, no one can get out of hell through indulgences, only purgatory. You can, I suppose, indulge your way to heaven, but not out of hell. Indulgences remit only temporal punishment for sin.


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## Jon Lake (Feb 10, 2009)

CharlieJ said:


> I think there are some misunderstandings circulating in this thread. Specifically, they are the type of misunderstandings that make informed Catholics think Protestants are ignorant schismatics.
> 
> First, the sale of indulgences has been officially illegal since 1567. Yes, I know that there are back-door ways of getting them through monetary transaction, but they are granted through many other avenues like prayers, charity, and pilgrimage.
> 
> Second, no one can get out of hell through indulgences, only purgatory. You can, I suppose, indulge your way to heaven, but not out of hell. Indulgences remit only temporal punishment for sin.


It is a "Roman Logic" semantic smoke screen! Hell/Purgatory, it boils down the same thing.


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## OPC'n (Feb 10, 2009)

This is a very good business move on their part. With all the lawsuits against them, they are probably in need of some extra cash flow... monetary charity I mean.


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## Grymir (Feb 10, 2009)

I wonder if Tetzel is out of purgatory yet??


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## ExGentibus (Feb 10, 2009)

They may not be using the methods of Johann Tetzel, but the substance is all there, and never went away in catholic countries. There are churches here where any faithful catholic can get a plenary indulgence by confession, mass, prayers for the pope and dozens of Hail Mary, any time of the year. The current bishop of Rome in 2005 issued a plenary indulgence available to anyone by simply attending the World Youth Day in Cologne. Anyone can order a special mass for a faithful departed, of course with a "voluntary offer" to the priest.

These announcements are no different from a "Limited Time - Call Now" offer.


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## CDM (Feb 10, 2009)

In the interest of fairness and accuracy, Rome has never *left* the doctrine of indulgences. The promotion of them simply fell out of favor in the West.


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## Jon Lake (Feb 10, 2009)

sjonee said:


> This is a very good business move on their part. With all the lawsuits against them, they are probably in need of some extra cash flow... monetary charity I mean.



Sarah, VERY good point and one I failed to mention, 10 years ago the Lawsuits were all over the news, sadly , with the American 20 second attention span you don't see much of it in the "mainstream", the fact is not ONLY are the payouts from years ago still being dealt with, there continue to be new allegations.It is VERY expensive! Celebate Priesthood! That was a GREAT idea.


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## William Price (Feb 10, 2009)

ManleyBeasley said:


> *Sola scriptura. Sola Fide. Sola Gratia. Solus Christus. Soli Deo gloria.*


Amen!


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## BJClark (Feb 10, 2009)

CharlieJ;



> Second, no one can get out of hell through indulgences, only purgatory. You can, I suppose, indulge your way to heaven, but not out of hell. Indulgences remit only temporal punishment for sin.



There is No such thing as purgatory, so the misunderstanding is not on our part..



> Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.



Purgatory is a lie, because no man is able to pay for his own sins, except for eternity in Hell separated from God...That is WHY Christ went to the Cross, because Man is incapable of paying that price for themselves.


Purgatory teaches: (to name a few)

1. Jesus' death and resurrection was NOT Sufficient to pay for our sins.
2. That people in anyway can 'work' or 'buy' their way into heaven--because God needs help saving them from their sin.
3. That God is not GOD, man is.
4. To deny the power of God





> 210. What is purgatory?
> 
> Purgatory is the state of those who die in God’s friendship, assured of their eternal salvation, but who still have need of purification to enter into the happiness of heaven.



Is Christ's death NOT sufficient to purify a soul to enter heaven without help?

If He is NOT, then He is NOT A GOD WE SHOULD BE FOLLOWING After, Because HE would NOT BE GOD!! He would be a Liar..

The truth is Christ's death was Sufficient, and He doesn't NEED any help from US to save us from God's wrath!!



> 211. How can we help the souls being purified in purgatory?
> 
> Because of the communion of saints, the faithful who are still pilgrims on earth are able to help the souls in purgatory by offering prayers in suffrage for them, especially the Eucharistic sacrifice. They also help them by almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance.



If a man dies without Christ He is doomed for all eternity, and no amount of prayers, works or suffering by others will get His soul into heaven.



> The whole penitential system of the Church testifies that the voluntary assumption of penitential works has always been part of true repentance and the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, can. xi) reminds the faithful that God does not always remit the whole punishment due to sin together with the guilt. God requires satisfaction, and will punish sin, and this doctrine involves as its necessary consequence a belief that the sinner failing to do penance in this life may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God.



God has already punished Sin, He poured out His wrath on His Son.

Lest Christ died in Vain!!!

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. 


Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 

1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1Th 5:9-10 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.



> Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
> 
> Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



God didn't I do enough works and say enough prayers to get out of purgatory?? Didn't I do enough penance??? 



> Act 7:41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.



This is the same thing..trying to offer up their own sacrifices, and rejoicing in the works of their own hands, as if it will please and appease God.



> Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;



They stumble at Christ, not going on Faith that Christ and Christ alone is ENOUGH!!

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


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## Jon Lake (Feb 10, 2009)

bjclark said:


> charliej;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


well stated!


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## ExGentibus (Feb 10, 2009)

BJClark said:


> CharlieJ;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're absolutely right, and I thank you for your post, but I suspect CharlieJ was not advocating Purgatory  He was only stating what the official roman teaching is.


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## PresbyDane (Feb 10, 2009)

calgal said:


> Ev'ry time a coin in the coffer rings, another soul from Purgatory springs!



well Luther did not say that, Johan Tetzel did, was it not?


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## CharlieJ (Feb 10, 2009)

Bobbi, I'm not a Romanist, as my presence on this board should indicate. I simply believe that we have a responsibility to articulate others' views in a form which they themselves can recognize. 

Rome does not teach that indulgences or purgatory work in addition to Christ. They are aimed entirely differently. Only Christ can grant eternal salvation and remove eternal punishment. However, as both Protestants and Catholics agree, entering into the state of grace does not remove all the temporal penalties for sin. For example, David's baby still died for his sin with Bathsheba. Indulgences and purgatory take care of those leftover consequences earned during lifetime. Purgatory is not punitive, but disciplinary, a continuation of the chastening God gives his children on earth.

There are many, many problems with indulgences and purgatory. However, if we are going to speak to the issue, we have an obligation (9th commandment) to represent it fairly and accurately. Many times Catholics are scared to death by Protestants who insist that they're "doing good works" instead of "believing in Jesus" to get to heaven. There is truth in that, but it's not spoken in such a way that the Catholic can understand what the Protestant is really saying. It all becomes so much smoke and noise until you can get on the same page.


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## Iakobos_1071 (Feb 10, 2009)

CharlieJ said:


> First, the sale of indulgences has been officially illegal since 1567. Yes, I know that there are back-door ways of getting them through monetary transaction, but they are granted through many other avenues like prayers, charity, and pilgrimage.



Yeah i heard that one way they do it is _donations_ to the church when a loved one dies.


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