# The Agonizing Problem of the Assurance of Salvation



## JM (Dec 8, 2007)

I found Piper a little confusing: So the agonizing question for some is: do I really have saving faith? Is my faith real? Am I self-deceived? Some well-intentioned people try to lessen the problem by making faith a mere decision to affirm certain truths, like the truth: Jesus is God, and he died for my sins. Some also try to assist assurance by denying that any kind of life-change is really necessary to demonstrate the reality of faith. So they find a way to make James 2:17 mean something other than what is seems to mean: "Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead." But these strategies to help assurance backfire. They deny some Scripture; and even the minimal faith they preserve can be agonized over and doubted by the tormented soul. They don't solve the problem, and they lose truth. And, perhaps worst of all, they sometimes give assurance to people who should not have it.

The Agonizing Problem of the Assurance of Salvation :: Desiring God Christian Resource Library

Is Piper saying that we can't know or have assurance of salvation?


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## Davidius (Dec 8, 2007)

I don't think it's a good idea to post anything from Andrew C Bain on this board, if it's being touted as something substantial. He was banned from the board quite some time ago and his teaching is dangerous.


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## JM (Dec 8, 2007)

I've never heard of him before...what's his story? [I removed the video.]


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## Davidius (Dec 8, 2007)

We are all heretics

Outside the camp



He hunts people down and spams them with emails or other forms of communications trying to push his teaching. Part of his doctrine of assurance is that anyone who has ever doubted isn't saved.


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## JM (Dec 8, 2007)

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> We are all heretics
> 
> Outside the camp
> 
> ...





Ahhhhh, I guess I have heard of him before.

jm


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## Jim Johnston (Dec 8, 2007)

JM said:


> I found Piper a little confusing: So the agonizing question for some is: do I really have saving faith? Is my faith real? Am I self-deceived? Some well-intentioned people try to lessen the problem by making faith a mere decision to affirm certain truths, like the truth: Jesus is God, and he died for my sins. Some also try to assist assurance by denying that any kind of life-change is really necessary to demonstrate the reality of faith. So they find a way to make James 2:17 mean something other than what is seems to mean: "Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead." But these strategies to help assurance backfire. They deny some Scripture; and even the minimal faith they preserve can be agonized over and doubted by the tormented soul. They don't solve the problem, and they lose truth. And, perhaps worst of all, they sometimes give assurance to people who should not have it.
> 
> The Agonizing Problem of the Assurance of Salvation :: Desiring God Christian Resource Library
> 
> Is Piper saying that we can't know or have assurance of salvation?



J.M.

As a Clarkian, you cannot know any of the above since you cannot deduce the proposition: "I am saved," or "I trust in Jesus," or "I am putting to death sin," or any of the other indicators of assurance Scripture tells us to look to, from Scripture. For one, your name isn't in Scripture so you can't know your second premise in the syllogism:

1) Those who exhibit X traits can have assurance.

2) I exhibit X traits.

3) Therefore, I have assurance.

Sorry to break it to you, I really am, but you're findng out that your philosophical speculations cannot help you with your practical theology questions.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Dec 8, 2007)

These Outside the Camp people are a load of nutcases; just read who they have on their "Heterodoxy Hall of Shame":

Louis Berkhof 

Loraine Boettner 

Horatius Bonar

Thomas Boston 

John Calvin 

Thomas Chalmers

Gordon Clark 

A.A. Hodge

Charles Hodge 

Herman Hoeksema

J. Gresham Machen 

Jonathan Edwards 

Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC) 

Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) 

Trinity Foundation

John Murray 

Ned Stonehouse

J. I. Packer

A.W. Pink

John Reisinger

Charles H. Spurgeon


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## Reformed Covenanter (Dec 8, 2007)

Not only that, they now no longer call themselves Reformed; read this article to find out why.


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## JM (Dec 8, 2007)

"...assurance is a precious gift of God." That I can agree with.

This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope, but an infallible assurance of faith founded on the blood and righteousness of Christ revealed in the Gospel; and also upon the inward evidence of those graces of the Spirit unto which promises are made, and on the testimony of the Spirit of adoption, witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God; and, as a fruit thereof, keeping the heart both humble and holy. LBCF — Chapter XVIII: Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation


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## javajedi (Dec 8, 2007)

I will try to read Piper's article.

But this is an important issue as many do struggle with this. And its a topic to deal with carefully.

What I find is that those struggling often are still looking at themselves, to some extent, for evidence (and since we all still sin this becomes problematic) instead of solely at Christ and His perfect, complete work for us.


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## javajedi (Dec 9, 2007)

JM said:


> Is Piper saying that we can't know or have assurance of salvation?



Not at all, he ends with:
What this means practically is that we should continually look to the cross and the work of God in Christ, because this is where God makes the light of the gospel shine. Secondly, we should continually pray for God to "enlighten the eyes of our hearts" (Ephesians 1:18). Thirdly, we should love each other; because, as John said, "We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren." In the end, assurance is a precious gift of God. Let us pray for each other that it will abound among us.​
Having now read the short article I think it's helpful. It would have been good to add that scripture tells us that we can, actually know we are saved (that assurance is possible):
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:13 NKJV​


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## kvanlaan (Dec 9, 2007)

I really enjoyed this series by Paul Washer on the subject. There are a few others at this link as well.

SermonAudio.com - Search Results


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## Semper Fidelis (Dec 9, 2007)

JM said:


> I found Piper a little confusing: So the agonizing question for some is: do I really have saving faith? Is my faith real? Am I self-deceived? Some well-intentioned people try to lessen the problem by making faith a mere decision to affirm certain truths, like the truth: Jesus is God, and he died for my sins. Some also try to assist assurance by denying that any kind of life-change is really necessary to demonstrate the reality of faith. So they find a way to make James 2:17 mean something other than what is seems to mean: "Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead." But these strategies to help assurance backfire. They deny some Scripture; and even the minimal faith they preserve can be agonized over and doubted by the tormented soul. They don't solve the problem, and they lose truth. And, perhaps worst of all, they sometimes give assurance to people who should not have it.
> 
> The Agonizing Problem of the Assurance of Salvation :: Desiring God Christian Resource Library
> 
> Is Piper saying that we can't know or have assurance of salvation?



No. I don't understand how you came to the conclusion after reading his article that he said one could not. He merely stated that some have false assurance. There are those that are convinced they are saved but they are not.

The more I've reflected on the nature of our election from eternity and the manner it is presented in the Scriptures, the more I become convinced that treating these things as objects of speculation is extremely unhelpful.

There has been an interesting fruit of my recent exhortations to the Church on the past few Sundays as I've been holding forth Christ and Him Crucified and tearing down the facade that we contribute to the inheritance that God has prepared beforehand for us. I had one of the members ask me how he could explain something to his wife. Without me actually talking about election and reprobation the problem had already arisen in the mind: "If I didn't contribute to my salvation and God just chose to lavish grace upon me then how do I know I'm really a person that God chose to lavish grace upon?" The other question also arose: "Why did He choose to lavish grace upon me and not someone else too?"

I'm starting to realize why Paul had to answer these kind of objections because Christians are not content hearing the announcement of sheer grace. They really don't believe that they didn't contribute something to their salvation so they're always trying to figure out ways to question it. I don't think the fact that God reveals far much about how He has lavished grace upon those who believe by accident. The reason He reveals it _is so they don't ever base the surety of their salvation upon themselves_. God's promise to save us is "Yes and Amen" and not "Well, maybe, depends upon how faithful you are...."

I'll tell you how you can have assurance of faith. Are you willing to simply receive the Good News that Christ has accomplished righteousness and are you willing to run to the Cross with nothing in your hands and say: "I believe this!" Are you willing to stop looking at your own heart and asking: "Is my faith enough for God to accept me because, after all, there are those that have false faith...." Are you willing to quit second-guessing that the inheritance that God has promised is real and that everything has been given _in spite_ of the fact that you don't deserve ANY OF IT!

You see, all the Christian ethics proceed obviously and naturally from the fount of the former truth. If you don't really believe the former truth then you don't have life within you and all that other stuff that James, Peter, John, and Jude talk in unison will not be found within you. Why? Because faith is life. Those who have life love God and those that love God love the brethren.

For more on this, check out SoliDeoGloria.com | Reformed Thought and Discussion and read the past several messages I've delivered starting with the Book of James.


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## JM (Dec 9, 2007)

The op looks out of context without the "out side the camp" video by Andrew C. Bain who claimed Piper was saying you couldn't have assurance. Once Bain's association with the out side the camp website was pointed out, I removed it, and found Piper not confusing at all. It was the false teaching and commentary from Bain that was confusing. 

Thanks folks.


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## etexas (Dec 9, 2007)

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> We are all heretics
> 
> Outside the camp
> 
> ...


That is a "fun" site....I did a Thread called we are ALL heretics after reading his site. He is a REAL piece of work!


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## Larry Hughes (Dec 9, 2007)

J. M.,

The trouble you are running into for assurance of salvation is that either 1. Too many people are turning you inward. 2. You are hearing “look inward” when they analyze the situation. CS Lewis makes an analogy concerning writers that is applicable it goes something like this:

A good writer in his writing will tell you about a beautiful woman. A GREAT writer, however, will write in such a way that you will at the end stop and say, “Wow, now that was a beautiful woman.” It’s the same with good pastors and poor ones (and here I’m being quite charitable with the word “poor”). A shepherd of Christ’s sheep will proclaim Christ to you so that you will hear and know, “He’s for me, all He did is for me”. Too many today simple wax endlessly about the Gospel yet don’t proclaim the Good News. Because at the base of your terror, and I know I’ve been there, you are wondering, “I know its Good News out there, for others, but is it Good News FOR ME.” Without hearing the “For Me” it really isn’t Good News is it? No matter how good it sounds for others. That’s the problem the devil has drawn you into, so close but infinitely away. 

Let me kill off a few problems:

1.	You say, “…do I really have saving faith? Is my faith real? Am I self-deceived?” Beware of having faith in faith. You are not saved by your faith. Understand? It’s not Christ’s work + your faith. Faith is created by the Gospel, it is a receiving instrument but faith is not faith in faith. Or to put it another way do not look at your looking. See the deception of the devil there? Next.

2.	You are terrorized by the Law right now. That’s good. You see nothing within yourself of saving value. That’s GREAT. Now the release, Christ died for you and performed all righteousness such that there is nothing left for you TO DO. Stop looking inward to yourself and stop trying to stop! The ENTIRE point of Christ incarnate is to pull us OUT of ourselves!

3.	Remember the essence of sin is not the “negative” sins we usually think of. They are trivial compared to the “good” sin. Sin is the inward turning of the soul upon its self so that ALL that it does pious or impious is to seek itself. The first sin was man attempting to be more pious than God, not sex or murder. This is intrinsic to the first commandment, “I AM the Lord your God Who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of bondage, you shall put NO OTHER gods IN FRONT OF ME.” Whenever we become anxious for ourselves and worry about things in body and soul, and ESPECIALLY concerning salvation, then we are putting a god in front of God and not trusting Him IN SPITE of what we see or perceive. And thus hone an idol, namely self, to be our god or salvation. Then we make His name vain (denying baptism), do not retain the Sabbath (particularly Christ for us our rest), and then ALL the rest of the commandments toward men we violate. See how the devil makes you worry about yourself so you won’t TRUST NAKEDLY in God Alone, Christ Alone and then start trying to trust yourself!

4.	Man always tries to ascend by his works to heaven in one of three ways: Affections, intellect or morally. These sum up our old man’s tricks for storming heaven by our Towers of Babylon. You are not saved by affections, intellect or morals. Or to restate these are not your God, these are not to be trusted in. Beware of the subtleness of pietism!

5.	Assurance is ONLY found in Christ as He is given you in the Word (Gospel) and the Sacraments. If God had meant another way to be certain He would not have had to send His Son to be incarnate nor given us the sacraments (baptism).

6.	You want to know, “Is it FOR ME”. You are baptized. This is going to be an eye opener for you but baptism is FOR YOU FAITH AND ASSURANCE, not to battle against it. Your pastor did not baptize you, God did. Baptism is His will toward you, “the promise is to you”. Don’t be a “Christian deist or rationalist”, baptism is not an act of men, men are merely actors. It is the seal of God, His name upon you, “God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit”. And part of that name is Jesus and His name means HE WILL save His people from their sins. THAT name is written upon you in the water. You see? It, the Good News, came to you in the Word and in the Word with the waters of baptism, it was sealed to you FOR YOU (that crucial Gospel, FOR YOU). My name and your name is not in the Scriptures. Jesus incarnate does not walk up to me and you and say, “Larry or JM, I forgive you your sins”, like Mary. Blessed that sound was!!! But He does come to us and speak to us from a pastor’s lips (if he gives PURE Gospel) and says this is for you. And that pastor is nothing but an instrument in God’s hands to pour, sprinkle, immerse you in the writing of His name with water on you. It comes, baptism, TO YOU. At that time nobody else was receiving that Gospel water, YOU WERE. God’s will! The Lord’s Supper is also FOR YOU, body and blood given for the forgiveness of YOUR SINS. YOUR lips receive it, the only way to have the Gospel is total passive reception. IF you TRY to GET IT, it can’t come to you. Understand?

7.	The Word, Pure Gospel spoken, sung, confessed, etc… in the liturgies and the sacraments issued according to the Gospel not the opinion of the Law is where assurance is. They are FOR your faith, not against them, FOR your assurance. This release of the Gospel causes fruit, NATURALLY, ON ITS OWN. You may and likely will not see it. GOOD you are blessed, blessed are the POOR in spirit not the proud and haughty puffed up by their works.

8.	When you sit in church and hear the great hymns and psalms sung, the preacher preach (assuming Gospel), the liturgies, that is not merely men and women speaking. That is Christ speaking. “Where two or three are gathered in MY NAME…I am there with you.” And that name is Jesus, “He will save His people from their sins”. It’s not some spectacular Gnostic Pentecostal appearance of the spirit. It’s not some “pie in the sky” statement meant to not be understood, wishfully hoped it is so or not earthy. No, He speaks in the called out ones. 
When your brother or sister next to you sings, “...the double cure…” that is Christ speaking and with you/us just as He promised.

9.	MEN will abuse the Law of God to keep the Grace of God away from them. Understand? It is as Luther says, “The most salutary doctrine of life, but it cannot help a man one bit toward life. In fact it hinders them.” Wrongly using the Law this way is to really despise it the most. In using it as a shield against the pure free grace of God, ironically, one is violating it completely, primarily the First Commandment as I already addressed.

10.	Finally, you are terrorized by the Law. You need to hear Gospel to pull you out. I’ll pass on to you something once used on me that pulled me out of myself. Christ’s blood will count for you on the day of judgment, EVEN if you don’t get better between now and then. Do you hear? Dead men will not comprehend that Gospel and gnash their teeth at it, but you need to hear it.

11.	We could talk all day about what Jesus did, all that He did. But it’s not the Gospel, Good News (to you) if you don’t know that it was FOR YOU. Do you hear!

12.	There’s a difference in someone who blubbers long and at length about how good food tastes. They starve you to death with their idol/idle, vain and empty words. They will waft it in your face FOREVER while your stomach gnarls in on itself and you are dying of utter starvation! While you lay dying and starving they speak lavishly of the ‘taste of food’, loving the sound of their words and intellect. What I’ve done is to say, “Away with such fat belly worshippers whose gods are indeed their own bloated fat bellies who feed no one but themselves. HERE is some lavish food. Don’t try to eat it, HERE IT IS, in fact, let me put a spoonful in myself, just lay there and let me feed you Christ.”

In the total sufficient imputed righteousness of Christ ALONE,

Larry


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## JM (Dec 10, 2007)

Larry Hughes said:


> J. M.,
> 
> The trouble you are running into for assurance of salvation is that...




Thanks Larry but I'm not having any issues [right now], it was the commentary on Pipers work by Bain that caused confussion. I thought I miss understand what Piper was saying because of the commentary, but I had it right in the first place.

Your post was excellent by the way and should come in handy in the future, thanks for putting that up.

Peace,

jm


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## weinhold (Dec 10, 2007)

Holy Sonnet XIX 
by John Donne

Oh, to vex me, contraries meet in one:
Inconstancy unnaturally hath begot
A constant habit; that when I would not
I change in vows, and in devotion.
As humorous is my contrition
As my profane love, and as soon forgot:
As riddlingly distempered, cold and hot,
As praying, as mute; as infinite, as none.
I durst not view heaven yesterday; and today
In prayers and flattering speeches I court God:
Tomorrow I quake with true fear of his rod.
So my devout fits come and go away
Like a fantastic ague; save that here
Those are my best days, when I shake with feare.


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## Jimmy the Greek (Dec 10, 2007)

The date of Piper's article in the Original Post places it in the aftermath of the Zane Hodges - John McArthur Lordship Salvation debate. I would suggest that Piper is writing against the Zane Hodges (no-Lordship) view, which does not acknowledge the subjective aspect of assurance.


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