# What is wrong with Tim Tebow



## CalvinandHodges

Hi:

I believe that Tim Tebow is a Christian, and that he is sincere in his faith to God. I also think that it is refreshing to see a sports figure who is not a drunk, drug addict, woman abuser, animal abuser, or a gambler, but displays an affection for God, and gives all the glory specifically to Jesus Christ. As such, I think that Tim Tebow's faith is one that should inspire many Christians in and out of sports.

What irks me about Tim Tebow is that his wonderful profession of faith is a means to justify working on the Sabbath. The Reformed view of keeping the Sabbath day holy is that we are to refrain from our work and recreations and devote the day to God. That only works of "necessity and mercy" are acceptable activities on the Sabbath day. Mr. Tebow's profession is that of a Quarterback in the NFL. This causes him to work on the Sabbath. Also, I have never seen a learned treatise that claims that the sport of Football falls into the category of necessity nor that of mercy. So, to play it or watch it played on the Sabbath seems to be contrary to the Christian Walk. What worries me is that such a wonderful profession is being used to promote unrighteousness rather than righteousness.

I gleaned this view of the Sabbath from reading the Bible, WSC Q60 and Q61 as well as Richard Gaffin's treatise on, Calvin and the Sabbath, Joeseph Pipa's, The Lord's Day, Walter Chantry's, Call the Sabbath a Delight, and Dennison's, The Market Day of the Soul.

The way to destroy Christianity is to put an end to Sabbath observance.

Blessings,

Rob


----------



## jwithnell

Rob, you and I and most everyone else on the board have been blessed by excellent teaching. I know many committed Christians who have no idea that the sabbath is required of them and have had the Bible twisted around so that they don't even see the plain truth in the reading on the subject. This is one area where we can be a witness within the community of faith. To me it seemed so evident because of excellent teaching: I haven't watched a pro game since maybe a month or so after coming to Christ, and no one even had to _say_ that football was a problem; it was the natural outworking of the teaching on the law.


----------



## earl40

CalvinandHodges said:


> The way to destroy Christianity is to put an end to Sabbath observance.
> 
> Blessings,
> 
> Rob



So if the Sabbath is eliminated the devil wins?


----------



## MLCOPE2

earl40 said:


> CalvinandHodges said:
> 
> 
> 
> The way to destroy Christianity is to put an end to Sabbath observance.
> 
> Blessings,
> 
> Rob
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So if the Sabbath is eliminated the devil wins?
Click to expand...


It would seem that J.C. Ryle had a similar sentiment regarding the desecration of the Sabbath:



> It is not too much to say that the prosperity or decay of organized Christianity depends on the maintenance of the Christian Sabbath. Break down the fence which now surrounds the Sunday, and our Sunday schools will soon come to an end. Let in the Hood of worldliness and pleasure-seeking on the Lord’s Day, without check or hindrance, and our congregations will soon dwindle away. _*There is not too much religion in the land now. Destroy the sanctity of the Sabbath, and there would soon be far less. Nothing in short, I believe, would so thoroughly advance the kingdom of Satan as to withdraw legal protection from the Lord’s Day. It would be a joy to the infidel; but it would be an insult and offense to God*._


----------



## TimV

But the Westminster West thinkers say the Reformers were wrong and didn't take their theology to it's logical conclusion, which is that the Church should have nothing to do with Christianising secular institutions. That would be "cultural transformation" and to be avoided at all cost. So there is no more such a legit thing as a Christian work week as there is Christian education.


----------



## MarquezsDg

Is it a loophole to DVR your fav NFL team and watch them on Monday then? This thread is intresting and never really given much thought but Im a huge NFL guy. and was just thinking this to myself if dvr the games would then be ok.


----------



## Unoriginalname

MarquezsDg said:


> Is it a loophole to DVR your fav NFL team and watch them on Monday then? This thread is intresting and never really given much thought but Im a huge NFL guy. and was just thinking this to myself if dvr the games would then be ok.


You would still be requiring people to work on the sabbath in order to entertain you. It is not as if it was just shown on Sundays. The entire spectacle is preformed on Sunday. Just food for thought


----------



## asc

What's wrong with Tim Tebow?

I know little about Tebow, but I'd assume like most American evangelicals, he has a low view of the Sabbath. Is this really a surprise? (Or is he Reformed or confessional?)


----------



## Marrow Man

What's wrong with Tim Tebow. He played college football for the University of Florida Gators. 'Nuff said.

He not only works on the Lord's Day, but contributes to the mindless entertainment that _distracts_ from the Lord's Day.


----------



## jwithnell

I agree with Eric, that we are to be careful about what we have others do on the Lord's Day. When the fourth commandment is given under the Mosaic covenant, numerous groups are mentioned including the stranger that is within your gate -- a catch-all that would include even those who are unknown to us and outside the faith.

It is interesting to me that the NFL took hold and flourished _after_ most of the US had abandoned even the cultural recognition of a sabbath rest. Before that, people watched football when they should: when the SEC was playing on Saturdays.


----------



## Marrow Man

If I recall correctly, the NFL almost withered and died in the early half of the 20th century. It was TV that saved it. The fact that people could stay home and watch the game saved the league.


----------



## Brother John

If a christian was talented enough do you think they could get signed to a team if they refused to dress on The Lord's Day? Are there enough Monday night games a year for a team to pay a player the minimum salary. Probably a dumb question but I thought I would throw it out there.


----------



## Andres

Brother John said:


> If a christian was talented enough do you think they could get signed to a team if they refused to dress on The Lord's Day? Are there enough Monday night games a year for a team to pay a player the minimum salary. Probably a dumb question but I thought I would throw it out there.



Absolutely no way an NFL team would sign a player who refused to play on the Lord's Day.

---------- Post added at 09:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:40 PM ----------




Unoriginalname said:


> You would still be requiring people to work on the sabbath in order to entertain you. It is not as if it was just shown on Sundays. The entire spectacle is preformed on Sunday. Just food for thought



But he's not watching on the Sabbath. If the logic is we shouldn't watch any NFL, even on the other six days of the week because they play on the Lord's Day, wouldn't this logic expect us to not ever eat at restaurants that are open on the Lord's Day? For example, McDonald's is open on Sundays. Even though I won't go there on Sundays, is it wrong for me to eat there Monday since I'm supporting a business that requires people to work on the Sabbath?


----------



## seajayrice

If I'm Tebow's agent, he's a work of necessity.


----------



## AThornquist

Unoriginalname said:


> You would still be requiring people to work on the sabbath in order to entertain you. It is not as if it was just shown on Sundays. The entire spectacle is preformed on Sunday. Just food for thought





> But he's not watching on the Sabbath. If the logic is we shouldn't watch any NFL, even on the other six days of the week because they play on the Lord's Day, wouldn't this logic expect us to not ever eat at restaurants that are open on the Lord's Day? For example, McDonald's is open on Sundays. Even though I won't go there on Sundays, is it wrong for me to eat there Monday since I'm supporting a business that requires people to work on the Sabbath?



If I am understanding this correctly, I don't think that logic is right. A closer view might be that we wouldn't eat the food on Monday that was cooked on Sunday, since even if we put off consumption, the production was still done on the Sabbath.


----------



## Unoriginalname

I was just throwing the idea out there and not trying to be dogmatic. The nfl is a non issue to me anyway so I guess I approach it with an attitude that it is all silliness, as spoken from a man in an apron. I was not attempting to bind anyone's conscious to the notion


----------



## Andres

AThornquist said:


> Unoriginalname said:
> 
> 
> 
> You would still be requiring people to work on the sabbath in order to entertain you. It is not as if it was just shown on Sundays. The entire spectacle is preformed on Sunday. Just food for thought
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But he's not watching on the Sabbath. If the logic is we shouldn't watch any NFL, even on the other six days of the week because they play on the Lord's Day, wouldn't this logic expect us to not ever eat at restaurants that are open on the Lord's Day? For example, McDonald's is open on Sundays. Even though I won't go there on Sundays, is it wrong for me to eat there Monday since I'm supporting a business that requires people to work on the Sabbath?
Click to expand...




> If I am understanding this correctly, I don't think that logic is right. A closer view might be that we wouldn't eat the food on Monday that was cooked on Sunday, since even if we put off consumption, the production was still done on the Sabbath.



Good point. You're right that analogy is probably better. Now with that in mind, I'm thinking the majority of restaurants do some sort of prep work the day before, therefore Monday's consumption involved some sort of work on the Lord's Day. Does anyone on the board boycott restaurants all-together or at least consider this implication?

---------- Post added at 12:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:23 AM ----------




Unoriginalname said:


> I was just throwing the idea out there and not trying to be dogmatic. The nfl is a non issue to me anyway so I guess I approach it with an attitude that it is all silliness, as spoken from a man in an apron. I was not attempting to bind anyone's conscious to the notion



No worries brother. In all honesty, I've struggled to in the past on whether I could in good conscience enjoy NFL games on Monday that I recorded on Sunday. I still don't know the answer.


----------



## J. Dean

AThornquist said:


> Unoriginalname said:
> 
> 
> 
> You would still be requiring people to work on the sabbath in order to entertain you. It is not as if it was just shown on Sundays. The entire spectacle is preformed on Sunday. Just food for thought
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But he's not watching on the Sabbath. If the logic is we shouldn't watch any NFL, even on the other six days of the week because they play on the Lord's Day, wouldn't this logic expect us to not ever eat at restaurants that are open on the Lord's Day? For example, McDonald's is open on Sundays. Even though I won't go there on Sundays, is it wrong for me to eat there Monday since I'm supporting a business that requires people to work on the Sabbath?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If I am understanding this correctly, I don't think that logic is right. A closer view might be that we wouldn't eat the food on Monday that was cooked on Sunday, since even if we put off consumption, the production was still done on the Sabbath.
Click to expand...


Now see... this is getting awfully close to the pharisaical view of the Sabbath In my humble opinion. We need to be careful about this.


----------



## FCC

Is the question really what is wrong with Tim Tebow? Or should it be what is wrong with our culture? I have struggled with this myself recently and still haven't found a good answer. I do not watch the NFL or any other professional or college sport, for biblical reasons, including the Sabbath breaking that is involved. But it seems that we have raised up another "popular" Christian and endowed him with almost idol like qualities. He stands for what passes for evangelical Christianity in our day and that is a sad commentary on the church. Examining Tebow and the whole craze has made me grieve over current state of the church and look more and more unto Christ, who alone is able to defend His church and raise her from the dust in which she seems so comfortable!


----------



## JML

FCC said:


> I do not watch the NFL or any other professional or college sport, for biblical reasons, including the Sabbath breaking that is involved.



Just curious as to why you don't watch college sports since you brought it up and said there were biblical reasons for not doing so.


----------



## CalvinandHodges

Hi:

I thank you all for your excellent posts and thoughtful thoughts. I could now use some advise: A short time ago a friend of mine fully endorsed the actions of Tim Tebow in a public forum. He posted a picture of himself and his family all wearing Denver Bronco uniforms, and pointed out that he wished more Christians were like Mr. Tebow. When I pointed out the contents in the above OP on the public forum that he was writing on he then sent me a private message saying that I was being disruptive in the Church because I should have aired my difference with him in private. I then pointed out that he posted on a public forum, and that I replied on the same forum.

What bothers me is that he is an associate pastor in a Reformed church, and he should have known better, or, he should have qualified his endorsement of Tim Tebow. Posting such things as a pastor would cause other Christians to follow the example of Tim Tebow.

What do you think?

Blessings,

Rob


----------



## calgal

The only problem with Tebow is he is not a Bear. As for the sanctimonious drabble, you turn on the heat, use electricity, running water, drive on the roads, get online etc. By doing these things, you compel someone else to work on the Sabbath.


----------



## Tripel

CalvinandHodges said:


> When I pointed out the contents in the above OP on the public forum that he was writing on he then sent me a private message saying that I was being disruptive in the Church because I should have aired my difference with him in private. I then pointed out that he posted on a public forum, and that I replied on the same forum.



I think your friend is right. 
If I posted something in a public forum that was questionable due to a lack of judgment or understanding, I would much rather have a friend say something to me privately than to use the same public forum to try to correct me.


----------



## NaphtaliPress

Like the conversations we have all the time on PB? If you say something in conversation in front of folks that is an error (and obvious exception to one's confession of faith) a response from someone would be natural to inform that person and those who just heard what was said. Same goes in a public discussion forum. He needs to get over it and spend more time working on his confessional stance than getting all defensive about how the grievousness of his statements was brought to his attention.



CalvinandHodges said:


> I then pointed out that he posted on a public forum, and that I replied on the same forum.


----------



## TimV

Or maybe the better question is how obligatory is it to qualify one's appreciation of a Christian by pointing out short comings.


----------



## Tripel

TimV said:


> Or maybe the better question is how obligatory is it to qualify one's appreciation of a Christian by pointing out short comings.



Ditto.

I don't know the full context of this scenario with Rob's friend, but from the little that is described it doesn't sound like such a bad thing. I too wish more Christians were like Tebow.


----------



## PuritanCovenanter

calgal said:


> The only problem with Tebow is he is not a Bear. As for the sanctimonious drabble, you turn on the heat, use electricity, running water, drive on the roads, get online etc. By doing these things, you compel someone else to work on the Sabbath.




You might benefit from this discourse in Edward Fisher's book, 'The Marrow of Modern Divinity'.



> CHARACTERS APPEARING IN THE DIALOGUE:
> *EVANGELISTA, a Minister of the Gospel
> **NEOPHYTUS, a Young Christian
> **NOMOLOGISTA, a Prattler of the Law
> **
> EVANGELISTA*. Well, then, I pray you consider, that as the Lord in the third commandment doth prescribe the right manner how he will be worshipped, so doth he in the fourth commandment, set down the time when he will be most solemnly worshipped, after the right manner; and in this commandment there is an affirmative part, expressed in these words, "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy," &c.: that is, remember that the seventh day in every week be set apart from worldly things and business, and be consecrated to God by holy and heavenly employments; and a negative part, expressed also in these words, "In it thou shalt not do any work," &c. That is, thou shalt not on that day do any such thing or work as doth any way hinder thee from keeping an holy rest unto God.
> *
> NEOPHYTUS*. I pray you, sir, begin with the affirmative part, and first tell us what the Lord requires of us in this commandment.
> *
> EVANGELISTA*. In this fourth commandment the Lord requires that we finish all our works in the space of six days, (Deut 5:13), and think on the seventh day before it come, and prepare for it, (Luke 23:54), and rise early on that day in the morning, (Psa 92:2, Mark 1:35,38,39). Yea, and the Lord requires that we fit ourselves for the public exercises by prayer, reading, and meditation, (Eccl 5:1, Isa 7:10); and that we join with the minister and people publicly assembled, with assent of mind, and fervency of affection in prayer, (Acts 2:42); in hearing the word read and preached, (Acts 13:14,15,44); in singing of Psalms, (1 Cor 14:15,16, Col 3:16); in the sacrament of baptism, (Luke 1:58,59); and in the sacrament of the Lord's Supper, so often as it shall be administered in that congregation whereof we are members, (1 Cor 11:26).Then afterwards, when we come home, the Lord requires that we seriously meditate on that portion of the word of which we have heard, (Acts 17:11), and repeat it to our families, (Deut 6:7), and confer of it with others, if there be occasion, (Luke 24:14,17); and that we crave his blessing when we have done all this, (John 17:17).
> *
> NEOPHYTUS*. And is this all that the Lord requires us to do on that day?
> *
> EVANGELISTA*. *No; the Lord also requires that we do works of mercy on that day, as to visit the sick, and do them what good we can, (Neh 8:12, Mark 3:3-5), and relieve the poor and needy, and such as be in prison, (Luke 13:16), and labour to reconcile those that be at variance and discord, (Matt 5:9).**And the Lord doth permit us to do works of instant necessity on that day, as to travel to places of God's worship, (2 Kings 4:23); to heal the diseased, (Hosea 6:6, Matt 12:7,12); to dress food for the necessary preservation of our temporal lives, (Exo 1:1); to tend and feed cattle, (Matt 12:11); and such like.
> **
> NEOPHYTUS*. I pray you, sir, proceed to the negative part, and tell us what the Lord forbiddeth in this commandment.
> *
> EVANGELISTA*. In this commandment the Lord forbiddeth idleness or sleeping more on the Lord's day in the morning, than is of necessity, (Matt 20:6); and he also forbiddeth us to labour in our particular callings, (Exo 16:28-30); and he also forbiddeth us to talk about our worldly affairs and business on that day, (Amos 8:5, Isa 58:13); and he also forbiddeth us to travel any journey about our worldly business on that day, (Matt 24:20); or keep any fairs or markest on that day, (Neh 13:16,17); or to labour in seed time and harvest on that day. In a word, the Lord on that day forbiddeth all worldly works and labours, except works of mercy and instant necessity, which were mentioned before. And thus have I also declared, both what the Lord requires and what he forbids in the fourth commandment. And now, neighbour Nomologista, I pray you tell me, whether you think you keep it perfectly or no.
> *
> NOMOLOGISTA*. Indeed, sir, I must confess, there is more both required and forbidden in this commandment than I was aware of; but yet I hope I go very near the observing and doing of all.
> *
> NEOPHYTUS*. But, sir, is the bare observing and doing of these things sufficient for keeping of this commandment perfectly?
> *
> EVANGELISTA*. Oh no! the first commandment must be understood in all the rest, that is, the obedience to the first commandment must be the motive and final cause of our obedience to the rest of the commandments, otherwise it is not the worship of God, but hypocrisy, as I touched before; wherefore, neighbour Nomologista, though you have done all the duties the Lord requires in this commandment, and avoided all the sins which he forbids, yet, if all this has been from such grounds, and to such ends, as I told you of in the conclusion of the second commandment, and not for the love you bear to God, and the desire you have to please him, you come short of keeping this commandment perfectly.
> *
> NEOPHYTUS*. Sir, whatsoever he does, I am sure I come far short not only in this point, but in divers others; for though it is true, indeed, I am careful to finish all my worldly business in the space of six days, yet, alas! I do not so seriously think on and prepare for the seventh day as I ought; neither do I many times rise so early on that day as I ought; neither do I so thoroughly fit and prepare myself by prayer and other exercises beforehand as I ought; neither do I so heartily join with the minister and people, when I come to the assembly, as I ought, but am subject to many wandering worldly thoughts and cares even at that time. And when I come home, if I do either meditate, repeat, pray, or confer, yet, alas! I do none of these with such delight or comfort as I ought; neither have I been so mindful nor careful to visit the sick, and relieve the poor, as I ought: neither can I clear myself from being guilty of doing more worldly works or labours on that day, than the works of mercy and instant necessity. The Lord be merciful unto me! I pray you, sir, proceed to speak of the fifth commandment, as you have done of the rest. But first of all, I pray, tell us what is meant by father and mother.



There are such things as works of necessity. Things that are permissible for the sustenance of life are okay. NFL football is not in the list of necessity for sustenance of life in my estimation. I am not so sure what to make of your comment about sanctimonious drabble. Are you accusing Sabbatarians of Sanctimonious Drabble because they believe that there is a line that is to be drawn concerning what is permissible and not permissible?


----------



## py3ak

calgal said:


> The only problem with Tebow is he is not a Bear. As for the sanctimonious drabble, you turn on the heat, use electricity, running water, drive on the roads, get online etc. By doing these things, you compel someone else to work on the Sabbath.



That's some charitable language. There are two other issues with this remark. One is that being a sinner oneself does not mean others aren’t, or that they can’t be called out for it. The same prophet who rebuked Jeroboam for his altar disobeyed the word of the Lord and got killed by a lion. If we could only rebuke where we are perfect, well then, you couldn’t have rebuked anyone for “sanctimonious drabble.” The other is that works of necessity are permitted; and certain matters of infrastructure and security are necessary (if not strictly to being, still to well-being): but sports are unnecessary by definition.


----------



## toddpedlar

calgal said:


> The only problem with Tebow is he is not a Bear. As for the sanctimonious drabble, you turn on the heat, use electricity, running water, drive on the roads, get online etc. By doing these things, you compel someone else to work on the Sabbath.



1) Any basic reformed discussion of the Sabbath includes provision for the providers of necessary basic services like electricity, water and gas (the internet is questionable perhaps). This has been hashed and rehashed myriad times on the PB and elsewhere. No need to dredge it up again, as it's a non-starter.

2) Are you seriously arguing that those who watch Tim Tebow play football on the Lord's day compel him to do so? There is absolutely no comparison whatsoever to be made between emergency services workers honorably serving the public on the Lord's Day and athletes breaking the 4th commandment. NONE. Your rhetorical attempt lacks both logic and reason. 

And more seriously:  

[MODERATOR] Characterization of the debate about NFL football as a Sabbath-breaking activity as "sanctimonious drabble" is not acceptable. The position of the confessions is clear, and characterizing adherence to it as "sanctimonious"? You should know better. No more, please. [/MODERATOR]


----------



## TimV

> In this commandment the Lord forbiddeth idleness or *sleeping more on the Lord's day in the morning*, than is of necessity



Randy are you really good with that?




> 1) Any basic reformed discussion of the Sabbath includes provision for the providers of necessary basic services like electricity, water and gas (the internet is questionable perhaps). This has been hashed and rehashed myriad times on the PB and elsewhere. *No need to dredge it up again,* as it's a non-starter.



? The fact that you call firing up the internet on Sunday questionable shows there's a lot of room for bringing the subject up again. You're either buying electricity for something you don't need or you aren't, is my take on it. If there's any question you can go outside and watch the meter turn.


----------



## toddpedlar

TimV said:


> In this commandment the Lord forbiddeth idleness or *sleeping more on the Lord's day in the morning*, than is of necessity
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Randy are you really good with that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1) Any basic reformed discussion of the Sabbath includes provision for the providers of necessary basic services like electricity, water and gas (the internet is questionable perhaps). This has been hashed and rehashed myriad times on the PB and elsewhere. *No need to dredge it up again,* as it's a non-starter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ? The fact that you call firing up the internet on Sunday questionable shows there's a lot of room for bringing the subject up again. You're either buying electricity for something you don't need or you aren't, is my take on it. If there's any question you can go outside and watch the meter turn.
Click to expand...


I think you mistake my being rhetorically charitable for the main meaning. The internet itself isn't necessarily a problem. Am I going on the internet to play chess? Ok, that's a problem on the Lord's day. Am I going on it to access my online libraries to do devotional reading? That's a different question. The internet is for many practical purposes a necessity (in fact a large part of the preceding services - gas, electrical power, water - require internet connectivity for their basic operation). 

Regardless of any of that, to argue that NFL football on the Lord's day is permissible by bringing up things like driving on the road and electrical service as clear places where one violates the Sabbath in using them is a plainly fallacious tactic. It doesn't even get out of the gate.


----------



## Pilgrim Standard

py3ak said:


> but sports are unnecessary by definition.


I second this.


----------



## pre-seminary?

It is, indeed, unfortunate that the NFL seems to have a monopoly on Sunday afternoons. However, to be totally honest, I think one would need to be incredibly ignorant of the broader evangelical consensus on Sabbath observance to have been surprised that Tebow plays football on Sundays (a couple of you have touched on that). It would appear that a Christian has essentially no place in pro football if he observes the Sabbath as it is meant to be observed. 

That being said, I have to commend Tebow for his willingness to proclaim the gospel in an incredibly public sphere. He has also spoken openly about his intent to save sex for marriage and did a pro-life commercial during the SuperBowl! All of our attempts to witness to God's glory are to some degree flawed, so I have to admit I feel compelled to cut the guy some slack; as a Christian sports fan, its hard not to love him. Here is an interesting article from the Gospel Coalition, and a humorous video:

Tebow, Calvin, and the Hand of God in Sports – The Gospel Coalition Blog

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMK9FKMG3Nc


----------



## Zenas

J. Dean said:


> AThornquist said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unoriginalname said:
> 
> 
> 
> You would still be requiring people to work on the sabbath in order to entertain you. It is not as if it was just shown on Sundays. The entire spectacle is preformed on Sunday. Just food for thought
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But he's not watching on the Sabbath. If the logic is we shouldn't watch any NFL, even on the other six days of the week because they play on the Lord's Day, wouldn't this logic expect us to not ever eat at restaurants that are open on the Lord's Day? For example, McDonald's is open on Sundays. Even though I won't go there on Sundays, is it wrong for me to eat there Monday since I'm supporting a business that requires people to work on the Sabbath?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If I am understanding this correctly, I don't think that logic is right. A closer view might be that we wouldn't eat the food on Monday that was cooked on Sunday, since even if we put off consumption, the production was still done on the Sabbath.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Now see... this is getting awfully close to the pharisaical view of the Sabbath In my humble opinion. We need to be careful about this.
Click to expand...


Which I think is exactly the point Andre was making re: watching a football game played on Sunday.

---------- Post added at 11:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:27 AM ----------

There's a lot wrong with Tim Tebow. As a Christian, I think he would readily admit that. While I definitely disagree with working on the Sabbath, and I do see playing football for money to draw advertising and other revenue for team owners and television stations as work, isn't it a poor reflection on us that we dig to find whatever theological flaws we can with the only significant public figure who seems to consistently, yet arguably imperfectly, proclaim Christ from his position? If the magnifying glass were on each of us, I'm willing to wager that lengthy discussions would take place regarding our own failings, whether real or perceived. I'm not saying it's wrong to teach the Biblical view that work should be refrained from on the Lord's day. I am questioning whether we should use that position as a basis to hyperanalyze a kid on a football team who, from all reports, is a sincere Christian and a joy to play with.


----------



## pre-seminary?

Thanks for that, Andrew. To turn things around a little further yet, maybe it would be more useful to ask ourselves about the boldness with which we proclaim the gospel in our own sphere of influence. Some of you might be yawning at the simplicity of this sentiment. Could this have something to do with the fact that some of our initial excitement about this topic may have had a lot to do with jealousy? Sometimes it feels good to find fault in someone who is doing a better job than us at preaching Christ. In my estimation, a lot of us here at PB are probably fairly avid in our Sabbath observance, but less effective in communicating some of the presuppositions for why its important to those outside a strictly Reformed enclave. Just a thought. (this will likely apply to some, not all)


----------



## PuritanCovenanter

TimV said:


> In this commandment the Lord forbiddeth idleness or *sleeping more on the Lord's day in the morning*, than is of necessity
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Randy are you really good with that?
Click to expand...


Not sure I understand the question Tim. I am usually up reading and preparing my heart early in the morning. I eat at Mom's after church and take a nap afterwards. Then I usually return to Church for the evening service. I don't see anything wrong with that part if that is what you are asking me. There is the positive reinforcement of doing what we ought to be doing in that statement. Don't you think?


----------



## Don Kistler

Thank you for bringing some much needed wisdom to this discussion, Joshua. It has been tough for me to see all the vitriol directed at Tim Tebow. I dare say he's never been taught any Sabbath theology. So it's a much greater sin for one of us to violate the Sabbath, knowing what we know. As our Lord said, "If ye KNOW these things, happy are ye if ye do them." 

Also, the Scriptures enjoin us that "whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report, etc., think on THESE things." The kid is doing a lot of good things, and we ought to applaud him for those, and then pray for him to be instructed in the others. 

Sanctification is a process, and we're all in it. The very thread title, "What's WRONG with Tim Tebow," starts with a negative. One of the criticisms too often laid at Reformed people's feet is that we're against everything and for nothing. In Paul's admonition quoted above, all his list is comprised of positive things. Let's think on those for a change.


----------



## PuritanCovenanter

I agree with Dr. Kistler and Josh. A lot!


----------



## Jeff Burns

toddpedlar said:


> And more seriously:
> 
> [MODERATOR] Characterization of the debate about NFL football as a Sabbath-breaking activity as "sanctimonious drabble" is not acceptable. The position of the confessions is clear, and characterizing adherence to it as "sanctimonious"? You should know better. No more, please. [/MODERATOR]



At the risk of getting this post deleted for being contra-confession, I think it's funny (and sad) that there's at least one or two threads on here every week somehow related to sabbath issues and sabbath breaking, and every time meaningful discussion is (for the most part) impossible because dissenting opinions are disallowed out of the gate. Why do we keep wasting so much time discussing this stuff when we know the only position we're allowed to arrive at is the one we're starting with in the first place???


----------



## toddpedlar

Jeff Burns said:


> toddpedlar said:
> 
> 
> 
> And more seriously:
> 
> [MODERATOR] Characterization of the debate about NFL football as a Sabbath-breaking activity as "sanctimonious drabble" is not acceptable. The position of the confessions is clear, and characterizing adherence to it as "sanctimonious"? You should know better. No more, please. [/MODERATOR]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At the risk of getting this post deleted for being contra-confession, I think it's funny (and sad) that there's at least one or two threads on here every week somehow related to sabbath issues and sabbath breaking, and every time meaningful discussion is (for the most part) impossible because dissenting opinions are disallowed out of the gate. Why do we keep wasting so much time discussing this stuff when we know the only position we're allowed to arrive at is the one we're starting with in the first place???
Click to expand...


Jeff -

If you paid attention to what was written there, first, you'd see that the warning came not because the position offered was contra-confessional, but because statement was made that the discussion in which the confessional position was being laid out is "sanctimonious drabble". That kind of snippy retort is simply not going to fly. 

Second... there is nothing wrong with offering that you disagree with the confession. There is also no restriction against your arrival at the conclusion that the confession is in error - nobody is going to "discipline" you in that regard, though there may be (will be) people who will maintain the confessional teaching. There is nothing wrong with asking questions to clarify the confessional stance on various items... nothing wrong with that at all. If such questions (not defenses of contraconfessional teaching, but genuine questions about the confessional position) are shut down, that's a pity - they should be allowed. But the position of this board is quite clear regarding advocacy of contra-confessional positions. 

This is not one of those cases. Nobody's been warned other than verbally, and the warning had nothing to do with whether or not the poster had taken a contra-confessional position. 

Todd


----------



## seajayrice

The NFL provides work.


----------



## CalvinandHodges

Hi All:

Thanks to those who responded to my inquiry.

I hope that the tone of the OP did not come across as vitriolic. I tried to be careful in noting that Tim Tebow is a Christian, and that he has a wonderful profession of faith. My post was not intended to tear him down, but my concern was on another level.

My concern is that Mr. Tebow's practice of working on the Sabbath is a bad example for Christians to imitate. That is, the "success" of his witness would inspire Christians to play and practice sports on Sunday's rather than resting the whole day through. The concern is not without warrant, because an associate pastor friend of mine has been swept away by the popularity of Mr. Tebow that my friend seems to have forgotten the nature of the Fourth Commandment.

If my language was offensive, then I do apologize.

Blessings,

Rob


----------



## Andres

Hi Rob, 
I think your concern is a valid one. I wrote an open letter to Tebow and posted it on my blog last year before Tebow was drafted. My main point of the letter was that Tebow should forgo an NFL career for a few reasons, but the main one being the issue of the 4th commandment. If you're interested, you may read it here.


----------



## Zach

The more I hear about Tebow, the more I like him and want him to succeed. I don't support his Sabbath breaking, but he seems to be one of the few people in the spotlight who gladly, openly, and unapologetically, professes Christ. I think that we Reformed should pray for him to come to a biblical perspective of the Sabbath day and that he would have the courage to act upon that conviction. What a great testament to the glory of Christ if one of the NFL's best Quarterbacks were to retire because he did not want to violate God's law. Something like that would certainly revitalize the topic of Sabbath keeping and hopefully the Lord would use it to bring many to a biblical perspective of the Sabbath day.


----------



## Don Kistler

Some years ago, the great baseball pitcher Sandy Koufax, who was Jewish, told the Dodgers he would not pitch on the Sabbath, which for him was Saturday. It's a bit "apples and oranges" because he could pitch any other day of the week and just take that day off. In the NFL, a person could not pick and choose which days he would play.

Just curious...if Tim Tebow played his games on Sunday and took a full day of the week off as a Sabbath and spent it in spiritual exercises, Bible study, prayer, meditation on the Scriptures, etc, would that be acceptable to his critics here?
That's a question, not an editorial.

Preachers have to work Sundays, obviously a work of necessity, but should still take a "sabbath" day during the week. I'll be interested in your responses.


----------



## jogri17

Before my current Pastor, I never heard of the Lord's day (I do think that is a much better term than sabbath) or any continuation of the 4th commandment. Some others simply do not believe it is biblical and believe Collisions 2 negates any notion of a continuation of the 4th commandment. Instead of looking down our nooses against others brothers and sisters, let's just agree to disagree and keep each other our of our various communions and when asked give a defense in love. That is where I stand.


----------



## TimV

One of the keys to the Sabbath was that it was public. So, the Prophet kept all manner of folks out of Jerusalem who had come to do business on the Sabbath. The guy from Tyre who took Tuesdays off didn't get let in regardless.


----------



## py3ak

jogri17 said:


> Collisions 2 negates any notion of a continuation of the 4th commandment



That would be an aptly named book for proclaiming changes in the comprehensive summary of mankind’s duties. Since the word has been settled in heaven, however, it is no surprise that there is nothing like this in Scripture.


----------



## Bethel

Don Kistler said:


> Just curious...if Tim Tebow played his games on Sunday and took a full day of the week off as a Sabbath and spent it in spiritual exercises, Bible study, prayer, meditation on the Scriptures, etc, would that be acceptable to his critics here? That's a question, not an editorial.



I would consider this action to be a rationalization of sin when there should be discernment. Isaiah specifically warns against this.


Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!​


----------



## PuritanCovenanter

py3ak said:


> jogri17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Collisions 2 negates any notion of a continuation of the 4th commandment
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That would be an aptly named book for proclaiming changes in the comprehensive summary of mankind’s duties. Since the word has been settled in heaven, however, it is no surprise that there is nothing like this in Scripture.
Click to expand...


Oh no! Not another one of these discussions. LOL. I would think this issue has been settled a few times over since we have thoroughly shown this to not be true concerning the triad.


----------



## KMK

Don Kistler said:


> Preachers have to work Sundays, obviously a work of necessity, but should still take a "sabbath" day during the week.



I have never heard this before. Is this a matter of precept or principle?


----------



## NaphtaliPress

Don't know about precept but in practice many Presbyterian ministers I know have Monday off from work.


KMK said:


> I have never heard this before. Is this a matter of precept or principle?


----------



## JML

> Don't know about precept but in practice many Presbyterian ministers I know have Monday off from work.





> Originally Posted by KMK
> I have never heard this before. Is this a matter of precept or principle?



When I was a full-time Baptist pastor, I had Monday off as well.


----------



## KMK

NaphtaliPress said:


> Don't know about precept but in practice many Presbyterian ministers I know have Monday off from work.
> 
> 
> KMK said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have never heard this before. Is this a matter of precept or principle?
Click to expand...


But was it called a Sabbath? Could the Pastor engage in recreational activities or was it dedicated entirely to worship?


----------



## Zach

Those Pastors I know who do it are not Reformed, so they do not hold to abstinence from Recreations as part of the Sabbath day, but I would imagine if they came to that conviction they would abstain from recreations that day as well since they view it very much as their "Sabbath Day". I think though that the Reformed Pastor would keep the Lord's Day (obviously) and if they take Monday off be able to pursue their recreations as they still keep the Lord's Day. The Commandment does say that Men are to work 6 days, but the Pastor still is working 6 days because of the nature of his necessary and good work on the Lord's Day. That's my


----------



## RobertPGH1981

I would say, why Focus so much attention on the Sabbath when we constantly break the other 9 commandments daily? Are the individuals that follow the Sabbath better than the ones that do not? Doesn't this cause boasting if you compare your brothers in Christ to yourself? Just because Tim Tebow may break the Sabbath, I am sure he breaks other commandments as well. Don't we all break God's Law? Please show me a man that is not Jesus that kept God's law perfectly. 

I feel like the Tebow bashing is getting old and it needs to stop. He is our Brother in Christ, and instead of looking at the negative we should commend him for the positive. He gets enough negative attention from the media and non-chrsitians as it is. Being a Public figure in any venue is difficult, being a public figure and a Christian at the same time means that you will be watched more closely.


----------



## RobertPGH1981

Joshua said:


> Because, in this particular context, the sabbath is the one brought most in to question. While there may be some "bashing" going on somewhere, rightful criticism is not bashing. For what it's worth, I've mentioned and affirmed the good things pertaining to Mr. Tebow, but that doesn't mean I am prohibited from criticizing publicly those things which he does wrongly publicly.



I understand what you are saying but we will always find fault with everyone. I am sure the reason he doesn't follow the Sabbath is because his church teaching isn't inline with following the Sabbath. I doubt he is even reformed and adheres to a confession (I am not sure about that). Maybe I am being judgmental here as well but hearing all the assaults on him on TV, Radio and boards upsets me, so if I came off that way I apologize. I rarely see postings of positive things about Tebow only negative.


----------



## Zach

I will be the first to confess that Tim Tebow is no worse sinner than I am, Robert. He does deserves our charity as a sincere brother in Christ. However, just because we all are sinners does not make it ok break God's law. Tim Tebow's working on the Sabbath is a violation of God's law and it is not bashing him to point that out. We should commend him for the positive, and there is much to be commended, but we should not brush off Tebow's breaking of the Fourth Commandment as unimportant just because we all fail to keep God's law.


----------



## py3ak

RobertPGH1981 said:


> I would say, why Focus so much attention on the Sabbath when we constantly break the other 9 commandments daily? Are the individuals that follow the Sabbath better than the ones that do not? Doesn't this cause boasting if you compare your brothers in Christ to yourself? Just because Tim Tebow may break the Sabbath, I am sure he breaks other commandments as well. Don't we all break God's Law? Please show me a man that is not Jesus that kept God's law perfectly.
> 
> I feel like the Tebow bashing is getting old and it needs to stop. He is our Brother in Christ, and instead of looking at the negative we should commend him for the positive. He gets enough negative attention from the media and non-chrsitians as it is. Being a Public figure in any venue is difficult, being a public figure and a Christian at the same time means that you will be watched more closely.



Criticism is sometimes necessary to avoid countenancing an error.


----------

