# The Grand Orange Lodge of Scotland?



## Jash Comstock (Jun 8, 2014)

Perhaps some of the UK brethren on the PB will be able to help me with this question.

I've been reading a bit about the Covenanter legacy, and I came across the mention of The Grand Orange Lodge of Scotland. From what I understand it is affiliated with the Ulster Loyalist movement (which stems from Covenanter lineage?) and also trade unionism.

Here are my questions. What is this lodge? (The Wikipedia article doesn't have much info) Is it like protestant freemasonry? How is this Lodge viewed in the respective UK Reformed Denominations? 

I just thought it was something curious I've never heard of before. Any info would be interesting.

Edit; I meant Grand *Orange* Lodge in the title.


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## jambo (Jun 8, 2014)

The Orange Order had its origins in Co Armagh in the late 18th century. It took its name from the Dutch House of Orange, the royal household of King Billy who defeated the RC King James at the Battle of the Boyne in 1690. It was established to defend the Protestant cause in Ireland and has spread to Scotland, particularly in Glasgow and Ayrshire, as well as other countries. It is a secret society where members progress up through various degrees.

Today it is a sectarian group more concerned with politics than religion and despite its claimed adherence to Protestantism, it is in fact a big hindrance to the spread of the gospel in Ireland. My father was an Orangeman joining as a juvenile and his connection with Orangeism held him back spiritually. I felt as a Christian the weeds and thorns of the Orange Order all but choked the spiritual life he had.

I would say the Orange Order has not done itself any favours in the general British public view with its antics and the mayhem it has caused in recent years and would imagine a lot of UK Christians would have little or no time for it.


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## RamistThomist (Jun 8, 2014)

Are there any connections between that Lodge and the Masonic Lodge?


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## Free Christian (Jun 8, 2014)

I don't know if its the same one but here in Australia years ago in Melbourne I went to a shop in a place called the Loyal Orange House. They had various books there, some were Chick publications.


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## Mushroom (Jun 8, 2014)

In a similar vein to Chick Tracts, I heard recently an episode of "Unshackled" <cue dramatic organ music> wherein the protagonist was much distracted from the Lord by his membership in the Orange Order in Northern Ireland. Sounded like it was in the '60's or '70's, but his complaint was that it was mainly a drinking, gaming, and political club where the gospel was given lip-service only.


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## JP Wallace (Jun 9, 2014)

Jash,

A note or two about your post and then a link.

1. The Grand Orange Lodge of Scotland is a outgrowth of that of Ulster/Ireland - and thus is as per Stuart's description. See also here Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland

2. Neither the Lodge or Loyalism grew out of the Covenanters, but they both would have grown out of the Ulster Scots people, who would largely have been from the Scottish Lowlands where Covenanting was strongest. The connection is genetic I suppose, not theological or political! Regardless the Covenanters in their Testimony at present distance themselves from such societies see link later. The Orange Lodge looks extremely favourably on the Glorious Revolution of 1688 and celebrates it annually, whereas the Covenanters mainly did not. While they were glad the Killing Times were over, the Settlement of William and Mary still ignored the National Covenant of 1638 and the Solemn League and Covenant of 1643, and kept in place an uncovenanted oath of allegience to the sovereign as supreme rather than Christ. 

3.In terms of relationship to denominations I am unsure, it will probably vary, but the following link will give you what the Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland thinks of it, and will also let you know something more about it. See here The Church and Secret Societies

4. There is no direct link between Free Masonry and the Orange, though no doubt some men are in both. My estimate is that FM is by far much worse than Orangeism.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Jun 9, 2014)

Jash Comstock said:


> From what I understand it is affiliated with the Ulster Loyalist movement (which stems from Covenanter lineage?)



Orangeism in Ireland was originally Anglican dominated. Up until the late 19th century, most Ulster Presbyterians were highly opposed to Orangeism, with only the occasional minister, such as Hugh Hanna, having any involvement with the movement. Even Henry Cooke was not a fan, and generally discouraged people joining the Orange Order. That situation began to change with the emergence of a militant Irish home rule movement in the 1870s, and especially with the First Home Rule crisis in 1886. Whereas most Presbyterians had been Liberal Unionists ["Liberal" meaning non-Tory Unionists], increasing numbers of Presbyterians started to swell the ranks of Orangeism.




Jash Comstock said:


> and also trade unionism



The Independent Orange Order split with the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland because of the latter's links with the Ulster Unionist Party. It tended to be left-leaning politically [by "left" I do not mean communists or pro-abortion, pro-homosexual liberals, which is often the crude caricature of all of us who happen to be an inch to the left of centre politically], and thus had some links with people in the trade unions [keep in mind that many British trade unionists were often socially conservative and sabbatarian in the past]. Normally, however, when the term "unionist" is used with respect to any branch of the Orange Order, it usually refers to unionist politics, i.e. it is talking about those who wish to maintain the union between Ireland/Northern Ireland and Great Britain.




Jash Comstock said:


> Is it like protestant freemasonry?



The higher degrees such as the Royal Arch Purple Order and the Black degrees are quasi-Masonic in nature. Officially, the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland does not recognise these as valid Orange degrees, but, in practice, every member of the Royal Arch Purple or Black orders is an Orangeman.



Jash Comstock said:


> How is this Lodge viewed in the respective UK Reformed Denominations?



In the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, quite a number of the most overtly Reformed ministers are Orangemen. They see it as an identity marker to distinguish themselves from those in the denomination who are more ecumenical in their outlook. In the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, membership of the Orange Order is discouraged but not censured. In the Reformed Presbyterian Church (Covenanters), a member of the Masonic or Orange Orders is not permitted to be a member of the church (though this rule is not always carefully observed).


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## Peairtach (Jun 9, 2014)

Some notable genuine Christian men have been Orangemen, including the Free Church moderator, Alexander Renwick.

But for some its quasi religious/political status may distract them from focussing their mind on what really matters.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2


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## Eoghan (Jun 9, 2014)

My impression is that the orange lodge in Ireland maintains some links with a faith while that of Scotland has much more to do with sectarianism and cheap alcohol.


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## Somerset (Jun 9, 2014)

There are some very good Christians in the OO and some lodges are renowned for being Christian - Sheffield is a good example. There are always preachers in the gathering place at the end of a march But for many it is a drinking club and a way of showing you are a protestant without having to be involved with religion. The Blabks are much more religious, and much smaller (draw your own conclusions).

I was a member for some years in Sheffield but became disenchanted with my experiences at a couple of parades in Scotland. I then transferred to Leicester, but left when they moved their meeting day to Sunday.


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## ProtestantBankie (Jun 9, 2014)

I was an Orangeman. The lodge was very helpful to me and brought me into contact with some of the finest Christians I know. My knowledge of the OT grew greatly and became a more Christ centered thing. Chiefly it was the means God used to bring me out of Liberal Protestantism (a church with a woman minister) into a Gospel preaching fully-confessional Church (The Free Church of Scotland (Continuing)).

I will always be thankful to the many Orangemen who helped me in 3 years in the Organisation. I was also greatly blessed to serve as a Chaplain in my lodge what I count to this day as one of the Lord's greatest blessings to me. To this day, the finest Christian man in my age group was someone who was an Orangeman and who fearlessly presented the Gospel at a parade in 2012 - a man I respect greatly. He is now an opponent of Orangeism by virtue of his view of the Revolution settlement.

I'd be happy to answer any questions that people have by PM - but I will reserve from speaking here which seems to be more a sociological analysis of the 18th and 19th centuries I cannot speak to those matters as I am not a noted historian.

I have objections and disagreements with the organisation as I do anything else. I will not be brandishing them all as one thing or the other. It is not fair to do so.


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## Jash Comstock (Jun 9, 2014)

Thank all of you! I learned a lot of interesting information about this.


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## Pilgrim (Jun 12, 2014)

There have been some threads about this here in the past. I think I also have some helpful resources bookmarked. I'll try to check later. From what I recall, there are red flags even for those who would not take the Covenanter view of the Revolution Settlement. I've even seen some who are associated with the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster express concerns about it.


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## Somerset (Jun 13, 2014)

In an age in which increasing numbers of children do not attend Sunday school, nor learn about Christianity from their parents, the OO provides one way of hearing the Word, the Boys Brigade is another route. But this needs to be set against the idea that one is a protestant if one "ticks certain boxes" - for some people supporting Rangers and not calling your son Kieran is enough.

I do feel torn on this issue as to the value of the OO - I suppose it depends on whether the Lodge points you towards a church or doesn't see church as important.


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## Jash Comstock (Jun 13, 2014)

Somerset said:


> for some people supporting Rangers and not calling your son Kieran is enough



Could you explain this reference?


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## Reformed Covenanter (Jun 13, 2014)

Among certain people in Ulster and the west of Scotland, "Protestantism" has nothing to do with theology, but with supporting a certain football team (usually Glasgow Rangers) and being anti-Irish. While there is nothing morally wrong with supporting Rangers (and I say this as a Hearts' fan), some people use it and other things such as attending Orange parades as a badge of Protestant identity, instead of finding their identity in Christ.


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## Jash Comstock (Jun 13, 2014)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> Among certain people in Ulster and the west of Scotland, "Protestantism" has nothing to do with theology, but with supporting a certain football team (usually Glasgow Rangers) and being anti-Irish. While there is nothing morally wrong with supporting Rangers (and I say this as a Hearts' fan), some people use it and other things such as attending Orange parades as a badge of Protestant identity, instead of finding their identity in Christ.



Ah, I see. So I guess similar to the nominal Christianity here in the states, especially the American South (people attending church for business connections, to check a box etc).


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