# The end of Evangelicalism?



## Kevin (Mar 11, 2009)

Has anyone read this article? The coming evangelical collapse | csmonitor.com

What do you think? (I think he overstates his case, but makes a valid point overall.)


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## LawrenceU (Mar 11, 2009)

I think he has pretty much nailed it in the big picture. But, I disagree that the rise in Pentecostalism, Romanism, and Orthodox Christianity is a good thing for the movement.


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## Knoxienne (Mar 11, 2009)

Yes, the article makes valid points, but only insomuch as God is building His Church and separating wheat from chaff. Evangelicalism in our society has largely and sadly been reduced to "a personal relationship with Christ" without all the necessary biblical doctrine that relationship entails. We must go to scripture and trust in the promises of our great God to build His Church and protect His people. 

In one lecture by R.J. Rushdoony I listened to recently, he mentioned the Chinese proverb, "May You Live in Interesting Times" and he explained that the character for "interesting" is an ideographic combination of "danger" and "opportunity". As Children of God, we have His promises and His protection as we arm ourselves with His eternal Word. He will never leave us nor forsake us. The adversity we experience is God's own Sword, and it is up to His sovereign will to sheath or unsheath. In times of danger there is always the opportunity to trust and obey and see the salvation of the Lord.

Let us put our confidence in Him and watch Him do great things in our lives, families, churches and nation. And we must learn to accept our chastisement and rebuke as beloved children.


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## Pergamum (Mar 11, 2009)

Hogwash to this article!!!!!!!.....

We are seeing the rebirth of evangelical calvinism and the continuing death of the liberalizing mainlines!

In 10-20 years, the quality of the US churches may be at their height as the doctrines of grace continue their resurgence. 

Therapeutic, wishy-washy church will be in decline and more solid teaching will take its place. Numbers of church-goers may decline somewhat, but good riddence to them. The quality of "evangelical Christians" will continue to improve.

Every mainline denomination that goes liberal shrinks drastically and these liberal groups will be very shrunken within 10 years. 

Young people are allured with calvinism and more and more pastors and missionaries are calvinistic... and we will begin feeling this renewed strength very soon.


Also, thank God, I think that more Christians are becoming disilusioned with politcs and will not engage the "culture wars" with rants, bad reporting, weird prophecies, or the like but may withdraw from politics all together (thank God) and get back to being Christians instead of angry Fundies (now Fundyism IS, in fact, dying).....

Also, throughout the world, the slow advance of the Gospel continues to seep into Asia and the Muslim World.

My forecast is WORDLWIDE OPTIMISM!!


Anyone for another round of "Jesus shall reign..."?


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## LawrenceU (Mar 11, 2009)

Pergy, that is why I said, 'in the big picture'. I believe we will see a real rupture of the current 'church system'. But, I also think that the rising move toward Reformed faith will eventually emerge as a dominant thread in this nation. Who knows what the culture at large will look like then, however.


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## Kevin (Mar 11, 2009)

Pergy, I didn't know that you were a post-mil!


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## Pergamum (Mar 11, 2009)

I don't think there will be a significant rise in "The Reformed Faith" -- only Calvinism, and in particular calvinistic baptists and evangelicals that believe in the five points.

Yes, amen this present church "system" is collapsing and the Religious Right is RIP. Amen that as soon as a church become liberal, its population dwindles into growing irrelevance.

-----Added 3/11/2009 at 09:23:52 EST-----

I thought I was just an optimistic amil, but I believe that there will be a worldwide influx of souls into the church (including the jewish people) and I guess this optimism makes me sound postmil.... if so, AMEN. Psalm 72 IS going to happen, right?


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## jogri17 (Mar 11, 2009)

I think it just means that cultural Christianity is dying and people are making the choice whether to be serious about their Christian walk or just go atheist/agnostic. But globally evangelicism, as historically defined (not in political terms as in the states but rather doctrinal terms), is doing great.


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## Kevin (Mar 11, 2009)

jogri17 said:


> I think it just means that cultural Christianity is dying and people are making the choice whether to be serious about their Christian walk or just go atheist/agnostic. But globally evangelicism, as historically defined (not in political terms as in the states but rather doctrinal terms), is doing great.


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## Contra_Mundum (Mar 11, 2009)

I would take things Michael Spencer (aka iMonk) says with several grains of salt. Some folks seem to think he's a real guru. He's a guy who opines quite a bit, and he's got a thin skin. He dishes the criticism, but he's been pretty prickly at times when taking it.


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## DMcFadden (Mar 11, 2009)

Bruce nailed it for me. The piece (which I almost posted a link to yesterday after reading it myself) was fascinating, but ultimately flawed. 

I have opined myself on the failure of the "evangelical experiment" of Henry. Within two decades of the founding of the premier neo-evangelical (aka modern evangelical, broad evangelical, etc.) seminary in Pasadena (CA), Fuller was changing their definitions of inspiration to make peace with the critique of the secularists. When I was a student there in the 70s, Jewett was just publishing his egalitarian manifesto claiming that Paul was "wrong" on the issue of women. At the time, I argued that Jewett would end up endorsing homosexual unions, which, before he died, he gave a nod to in his unfinished systematic theology.

So my sympathies go for the "big idea" of the article in its critique of evangelical weakness. However, the projections and predictions seem wildly speculative to me. A possible scenario? Sure. Most likely? Not necessarily.


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## charliejunfan (Mar 11, 2009)

I agree with Pergamum, there is a rise of Calvinism happening, and I think we as the Reformed community(Reformed Baptists included) need to really start uniting in the "streets" and dishing out presuppositional apologetics with the gospel to minority groups and so on. I moved from Wisconsin to Arizona by bus 2 months ago now and on that bus within 2 days I met and talked with 2 men about the gospel and the foolishness of the age using presuppositional apologetics. They were able to see(by the grace of God) that the assumption of "free will" is totally false and that we are living out determinism that we see as our "free" choice. I think we all just need to go by our convictions more instead of writing them off as something left over charismaticism or arminianism. The Spirit does lead whether one takes a charismatic position or not, so we should just be ruthless as Jonathan Edwards or Goerge Whitfield in our apologetics and evangelism. I of course prefer 1 on 1 disciple making, NOT hit and run evangelism, I even go so far as to tell people that God determines who will be saved and that if He does not want them saved then they will not be, I also tell them though that if they have faith and prove their faith by following Christ in good works then that means that Christ chose to save them, I also tell them that they cannot believe anything I say without being Regenerated by the Holy Spirit. The gospel has the power to save, NOT our actions, so lets go show them and get across our worldview in words and leave them with either a Repentant heart or a shut down worldview.

I am not meaning to call everyone here lazy, by no means, but I think we have great disunity and also make a case of watching but not getting involved as if we are the kings of christendom and we are watching the pesent Arminians mess things up, It is our fault if we do not serve in this kingdom and fight(not violently but courageously) for Reformation.
 Semper Reformada! Charlie


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## Scott1 (Mar 11, 2009)

It's hard to know where the writer is coming from.

His reasoning and premises appear to be off-base throughout his article. He does not define his terms clearly. For example, "broad evangelicalism" is now embracing liberal political causes like big government and global warming for the first time, and it is in decline. But the author says it was the embracing of conservative causes (which I would take to mean things like pro-life and family value issues), when influence was stronger, that is the problem.

The logic there strikes me like someone telling a smaller faithful, biblical denomination that their secret to success would be to re-join a mainline denomination that is dying spiritually and shrinking numerically. It doesn't even make sense, even before looking at the author's understanding of the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

Without the analogy of faith, yes, everything will shrink and man will be given more over to himself.

Thankfully, that's not at all what Scripture tells us. It's not what God promises us. Of His Kingdom, there will be no end. The "evangel" will prosper, and so will "evangelicals" who faithfully proclaim it.


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## steven-nemes (Mar 11, 2009)

The fewer Pentecostals and Charismatics, the more Calvinists, the better.


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## tellville (Mar 12, 2009)

*The coming evangelical collapse*

Oneida, Ky. – We are on the verge – within 10 years – of a major collapse of evangelical Christianity. This breakdown will follow the deterioration of the mainline Protestant world and it will fundamentally alter the religious and cultural environment in the West.

Within two generations, evangelicalism will be a house deserted of half its occupants. (Between 25 and 35 percent of Americans today are Evangelicals.) In the "Protestant" 20th century, Evangelicals flourished. But they will soon be living in a very secular and religiously antagonistic 21st century.

This collapse will herald the arrival of an anti-Christian chapter of the post-Christian West. Intolerance of Christianity will rise to levels many of us have not believed possible in our lifetimes, and public policy will become hostile toward evangelical Christianity, seeing it as the opponent of the common good.

Millions of Evangelicals will quit. Thousands of ministries will end. Christian media will be reduced, if not eliminated. Many Christian schools will go into rapid decline. I'm convinced the grace and mission of God will reach to the ends of the earth. But the end of evangelicalism as we know it is close.

The rest of the article can be found here: The coming evangelical collapse

So, what do you guys think? Is it the end as we know it? Or is this just a repeat of the false predictions 50 years ago?


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## Grace Alone (Mar 12, 2009)

There are nominal Christians all over the place. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see a continued reduction in the numbers of evangelicals as our culture becomes more and more secular and hostile to true Christianity. The remnant will always be there, of course. 

(You can tell I am not post-mil!)


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## Anton Bruckner (Mar 12, 2009)

I actually believe that there will be an evangelical collapse but not because of what the article mentioned. My analysis of the situation is this.

1. The economic deterioration will cause many to seek religion to provide relief and get a miracle.

2. Many evangelical christians will be laid off. The church coffers will dry up.

3. The evangelical community is ill equiped and are shallow when it comes to doctrinal matters and will be unable to cope.

As a result people will abandon the evangelical right in droves. T.D Jakes, Osteen days are numbered. Only substantive churches and substantive christians will survive the period we are presently going through. I am praying that I am one of them.


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## Zenas (Mar 12, 2009)

Why are people getting all upset because the statistics they floated on for so long are collapsing? Since shortly after my conversion, I have not been under the delusion that all of those who checked off "Christian" on random surveys were anything other than God-haters. The statistics are merely beginning to reflect this fact. 

Is this worrying? No. What did we gain by millions of people falsely claiming Christ? Nothing material, substantial, metaphysical, or spiritual. We got lied to, that's all.


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## MMasztal (Mar 12, 2009)

Given today's _popular _"evangelicalism" is already a wasteland with the likes of Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyers, TD Jakes, the Trinity Network, Ken Copeland being seen as the representatives, it's no wonder this article is being published.

Under "Why is this going to happen", points 1, 2, 4, and 6 are right on, but I don't think all of the bullet points in the "What will be left?" section are correct. In my opinion, the megachurch mania will wane and the doctrinally shallow churches will dry up. This is already being seen in many main stream liberal denominations which tend to look like a sea of white hair on Sunday morning. 

What is needed is a new reformation where pastors return to the truths of Scripture and what we need to avoid are misguided forays into the political arena.


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## ColdSilverMoon (Mar 12, 2009)

I agree with most of the above comments. Even if what the article says is true, it will simply be easier to separate the wheat from the chaff. There is no loss to the *true* church, the Reformed church in particular.


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## MrMerlin777 (Mar 12, 2009)

The demise of evanjellyfishism will not be a bad thing at all. Hopefully it will allow for a resurgence of true Christian evangelism.


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## lynnie (Mar 12, 2009)

The article says: "Charismatic-Pentecostal Christianity will become the majority report in evangelicalism."

I am not convinced of that. I believe that when the economy shakes down into a depression and some nukes go off, the great truths of Reformed doctrine will draw many people. I am praying for another Reformation and that as people came out of the RCC in huge numbers back after Luther, even so they will come out of Arminian dispensationalism. 

During the recent Israeli-Hizbollah war, people I know of in Calvary Chapels were angry that they hadn't been raptured yet. Millions of Americans are convinced they won't be left behind here for hard times, and there will be much anger and bitterness. Christians are not being prepared to suffer or lose everything. 

Anton Bruckner summed it up perfectly in my opinion.


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## Rich Koster (Mar 12, 2009)

If I remember correctly, the early church didn't have a huge working budget. It seemed to thrive under persecution because that's when God's people really showed their stuff. The persecution sped up the sanctification process too. I'll trust that God will draw in all of the elect regardless of circumstance.


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## Josiah (Mar 12, 2009)

Darryl Hart has written about this article at the Old Life Theological Journal. 



> Dog Bites Man; Evangelicalism is Collapsing (Again)
> March 12th, 2009 by Darryl G. Hart
> 
> The Internet Monk, Michael Spencer, wrote an op-ed for the Christian Science Monitor (you know, the Mary Baker Eddy Christian Science Monitor — so it must be true), on the impending demise of evangelicalism. The piece has received lots of attention and been forwarded around the e-superhighway; I received at least three emails with links to it.
> ...


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## Anton Bruckner (Mar 12, 2009)

ColdSilverMoon said:


> I agree with most of the above comments. Even if what the article says is true, it will simply be easier to separate the wheat from the chaff. There is no loss to the *true* church, the Reformed church in particular.



This is what the evangelical church is ill equipped to deal with.





The wheat from the chaff is definitely being separated. The question is, Which denomination will send missionaries to the tent cities knowing that the tent city residents cannot provide 1 cent in tithe.


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## Contra_Mundum (Mar 12, 2009)

Here's an mp3 to a interview with Spencer. He sort of exempts Confessional protestants from his general critique, but I think DGHart's response to the original article (see above, HT Josiah) is probably the best critique of the critique.
http://www.issuesetc.org/podcast/182031009H1S2.mp3


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## kalawine (Mar 13, 2009)

*Will Reformed Faith Replace It?*

Will Reformed Faith replace it?

Evangelicalism on the outs, says author (OneNewsNow.com)


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## Contra_Mundum (Mar 13, 2009)

Moderation:
THREE threads on the exact same topic merged.


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## kalawine (Mar 14, 2009)

Contra_Mundum said:


> Moderation:
> THREE threads on the exact same topic merged.



How did that happen?


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