# Thoughts on Grace School of Theology?



## ericknowsChrist (Aug 26, 2017)

I am exploring enrolling in a distance or hybrid MDiv program next year and my interest is currently piqued by Grace School of Theology. 

http://www.gsot.edu/programs/mdiv/

They are ATS accredited school/program https://www.ats.edu/member-schools/grace-school-theology

- I am also interested if anyone has heard anything about Shiloh University - I am not as enamored with their curriculum, nor accreditation (DEAC), but am interested none-the-less to know if anyone has any insights to this school and program.

http://www.shilohuniversity.edu/academics/master-of-divinity/


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## BG (Aug 27, 2017)

They are not reformed


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## Pilgrim (Aug 27, 2017)

ericknowsChrist said:


> I am exploring enrolling in a distance or hybrid MDiv program next year and my interest is currently piqued by Grace School of Theology.
> 
> http://www.gsot.edu/programs/mdiv/
> 
> ...



Grace Seminary is an old school "Free Grace" institution which probably sprung up in part because DTS has largely abandoned that along with traditional dispensationalism. Grace's statement of faith (which I would think you would have looked at) teaches that faith precedes regeneration and explicitly denies limited atonement. Smaller schools like that also tend to be less tolerant of those who hold dissenting views, although that may not always be the case. (Presumably you differ from those views since you are a member here.)

If they are in the Ryrie stream of the "free grace" movement, which they appear to be given their mention of him, at least that is better than Zane Hodges, especially considering what Hodges eventually ended up teaching in his last years. But given the fact that you are on this board, I would imagine that you agree with men like John MacArthur and James Montgomery Boice on the Lordship Salvation issue. If you want to go to a dispensational seminary, I'm sure TMS would be a much better choice, although I don't think they have any distance degree options. There are also others that I think would probably be better, (including Cornerstone, which you've mentioned before) especially if accreditation isn't a huge issue.

I don't know anything at all about Shiloh. But some members of their faculty have degrees from places like SBTS and TEDS.

These institutions are less expensive than many other evangelical seminaries. The cost of an education isn't always an indication of its quality. But sometimes you really do get what you pay for. Sometimes a bargain is too expensive if you don't get what you really want and need. And cheap and accredited are often mutually exclusive.

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## Timotheos (Aug 28, 2017)

Pilgrim said:


> Grace Seminary is an old school "Free Grace" institution which probably sprung up in part because DTS has largely abandoned that along with traditional dispensationalism. Grace's statement of faith (which I would think you would have looked at) teaches that faith precedes regeneration and explicitly denies limited atonement. Smaller schools like that also tend to be less tolerant of those who hold dissenting views, although that may not always be the case. (Presumably you differ from those views since you are a member here.)
> 
> If they are in the Ryrie stream of the "free grace" movement, which they appear to be given their mention of him, at least that is better than Zane Hodges, especially considering what Hodges eventually ended up teaching in his last years. But given the fact that you are on this board, I would imagine that you agree with men like John MacArthur and James Montgomery Boice on the Lordship Salvation issue. If you want to go to a dispensational seminary, I'm sure TMS would be a much better choice, although I don't think they have any distance degree options. There are also others that I think would probably be better, (including Cornerstone, which you've mentioned before) especially if accreditation isn't a huge issue.
> 
> ...


Are you confusing Grace School of Theology in Tex w/ Grace Theological Seminary in Ind?


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## Pilgrim (Aug 28, 2017)

Timotheos said:


> Are you confusing Grace School of Theology in Tex w/ Grace Theological Seminary in Ind?



The OP posted a link to the one in TX. It wouldn't have come to mind otherwise.

I'm sure the one in Winona Lake, IN would be a much better choice also since it is probably somewhat less Calviphobic, (and they were arguably never really on the "no lordship" train to begin with, although they've certainly been dispensational) but I don't know that they have any distance programs. There are a few IFB institutions that would be better also, such as DBTS or Central in MN.

Basically, the one in TX probably isn't going to want to have anything to do with Progressive Dispensationalism, much less any form of Covenantalism. It very likely isn't going to want to have anything at all to do with Calvinistic soteriology either. The "Free Grace" folks seem to have strongly reacted against it in the wake of the Lordship controversy. Older men such as Ryrie and Lightner would have referred to themselves as being Calvinistic (i.e. 4 point) but you hardly ever see that coming out of that camp now. Some "Free Grace" people now say things like "I am a zero point Calvinist." There may be people on the faculty there who think Dave Hunt's attacks against Calvinism were great.


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## yeutter (Aug 28, 2017)

I have known men who studied at Grace in Winona Lake and think highly of it. Though much of their education was sound; they admit they had to unlearn much of what they learned there.
Moore Theological College has a distance learning program that I think highly of.

www.mooreonlinestudy.com/about-dbt/


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## TylerRay (Aug 28, 2017)

ericknowsChrist said:


> I am exploring enrolling in a distance or hybrid MDiv program next year and my interest is currently piqued by Grace School of Theology.
> 
> http://www.gsot.edu/programs/mdiv/
> 
> ...


I would not recommend any school which contains the following as a part of the doctrinal statement (Grace School of Theoloy):


> Initial faith resulting in justification and regeneration is not a gift of God. That is, fallen humanity when persuaded by the illuminating and convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit and the drawing ministry of the Father still possesses the capacity to choose to believe in Christ. Such faith precedes regeneration.



Nor would I recommend any school whose statement of faith is broad enough to allow for such a view (Shiloh University).

Many seminaries will allow you to take a portion of the course online. Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary and Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary are excellent schools to consider.

If you want a fully-online program, you should consider Whitefield Theological Seminary.

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## TylerRay (Aug 28, 2017)

Before going to seminary, brother, you'll probably want to consider getting involved with a sound, Reformed church. If your church isn't Reformed, and the seminary options you are considering are not Reformed, where do you expect to learn sound doctrine?

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## PuritanCovenanter (Aug 28, 2017)

I highly recommend you look into this school. 
Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary
Sam Waldron is the Dean of the School 
https://cbtseminary.org/

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## yeutter (Aug 28, 2017)

TylerRay said:


> Before going to seminary, brother, you'll probably want to consider getting involved with a sound, Reformed church. If your church isn't Reformed, and the seminary options your are considering are not Reformed, where do you expect to learn sound doctrine?


The brother does not have a lot of choices of congregations in Grizzley Flats, California.
www.grizzlyflatschurch.org


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## Gforce9 (Aug 28, 2017)

TylerRay said:


> I would not recommend any school which contains the following as a part of the doctrinal statement (Grace School of Theoloy):
> 
> 
> Nor would I recommend any school whose statement of faith is broad enough to allow for such a view (Shiloh University).
> ...



That is quite a bold proclamation of humanism from a Christian seminary.....


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## Edward (Aug 28, 2017)

yeutter said:


> The brother does not have a lot of choices of congregations in Grizzley Flats, California.



Grace Reformed Baptist Church, Placerville, CA. About 22 miles/45 minutes (about as far as I drive on Sunday morning, but about a 50% longer drive.)

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## Miguel (Aug 30, 2017)

Come to GPTS.edu, great seminary.


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## WRB (Aug 31, 2017)

Eric,

I highly recommend RTS.
http://www.rts.edu/

Bill
(Just north of you in Georgetown)


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## ericknowsChrist (Sep 4, 2017)

Thank you all for your input.

First - it did not take much digging to make it clear that neither institution mentioned in my first post are appropriate. 



TylerRay said:


> Before going to seminary, brother, you'll probably want to consider getting involved with a sound, Reformed church. If your church isn't Reformed, and the seminary options you are considering are not Reformed, where do you expect to learn sound doctrine?



I agree - I have been blessed to have been involved in sound Bible churches for some time. While I have a foundation in traditional reformed theology and have attended RCUS and independent traditionally reformed churches, my theology is not traditionally reformed. My studies and prayers led me to understand both baptism and end times differently and as such I am a credobaptist and pre-millennial. 

To many this means I am not reformed; and to large extent I respect this perspective, as I am certainly not traditionally reformed. To others reformed includes all who affirm of the five solas and the doctrines of grace. Clearly I fall in the latter camp, but have no desire to debate, nor contradict those who may disagree with me on this issue however and will instead respect their opinion. But for better or worse I share my theological convictions with the likes of Spurgeon, Piper, Lawson and MacArthur. Does that mean I am correct? No all men have fallen short of grace, and whatever the truth is on the issue of baptism and end times there are many faithful men of God on both sides of these understandings. 

I have considered going to seminary many times over the past couple decades, but obviously have not done anything about it. 

The ministry is a calling. The ministry is the greatest blessing, yet also perhaps the greatest, or one of the greatest challenges we can face. I have experienced both the joys of ministry as well as the pain and betrayal that often accompanies serving in ministry. It is sinfully easy to hide when beat-up and betrayed by the sinful actions of men of God. What we are to do instead is to forgive and persevere. To paraphrase Forest Gump: "_That is all I am going to say about that._" 

I am in my early 50s slaving away in my career and trying to figure out how I am going to afford to retire and how best to set myself up for consulting in retirement to continue the income stream. I will have my home paid for next spring and my worldly logical side was planning on sinking the freed up money into retirement vehicles, addressing long-overdue household maintenance and perhaps grad school. 

I researched a number of secular grad programs and was pretty set on going into a hard-science based masters program that would be a pretty good fit for my current 9-5 job and put me in better stead for working as a consultant after I am put to pasture - or even to jump ship and go into consulting earlier. 

In late spring I started to pray on my future and what I am supposed to be doing with my time and my freed up finances and possibility of grad school, the Holy Spirit has been clear in His response: Over and over through scripture, reflection in prayer (conviction) and through the Christian books He has led me to read this summer the clear message has been that my thoughts and goals in this area has been sinfully-selfishly-me-focused, rather than Creator focused. My focus is to be on Him. I am not to concern myself with 'retirement' or how I am doing to fund retirement but instead on how I might better serve him; both now and down the road. I don't know exactly what that means for my future, but preaching in South America or Northern Africa seems a more likely 'retirement' than sitting around the house. 

This has prompted some stark changes in my life focus, and for me to forgive those who are unrepentant in their sins against God and secondarily me. Because it is not about them, it is about my sins, my heart and the need for me to completely surrender and serve Him. He forgave and forgives me infinitely more than any man could ever do against me. 

I don't yet have the firm conviction that I *have* to go to seminary, I could go for a non-seminary theological degree but at the moment that is where I am leaning. I am still exploring seminaries; my goal is to find a distance or hybrid program. 

I would also like to be able to complete my studies without incurring debt, or at least much debt which is playing into my thought process on choosing a seminary. 

Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary http://www.mbts.edu is my current favorite potential candidate, though I am still searching and exploring. Midwestern Baptist is one of six seminaries of the Southern Baptist Convention. (_I'll have to pay higher tuition because I am not SBC, but it is still quite affordable._) Jason Allen became President of Midwestern a couple of years ago and has been criticized as being a "radical Calvinist" and an "Al Mohler clone." Such criticism sounds like high praise to me! Al Mohler saved Southern Seminary and arguably the entire SBC from liberalism, though the battle to defend the truth still continues as it has for the past 2,000 years.

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## Pilgrim (Sep 6, 2017)

ericknowsChrist said:


> Thank you all for your input.
> 
> First - it did not take much digging to make it clear that neither institution mentioned in my first post are appropriate.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the update. 

The Mohler clone stuff is because Dr. Allen came out of SBTS and because the anti-Calvinists in the SBC perceive that there are too many Mohler proteges running things in the SBC these days. (I think the tally in their eyes is SBTS, SEBTS, ERLC, IMB, NAMB and now MBTS, which is probably at least half of the denominational entities.) From what I understand, Dr. Allen is not even a 5 point Calvinist and he got the job in part due to the enthusiastic support of Judge Paul Pressler, who is no Calvinist but who was one of the main leaders of the Conservative Resurgence in the SBC. But I'm sure it is more "Calvinist-friendly" than at least a couple of the other seminaries are. 

MBTS has the Spurgeon Library and there seem to be some exciting things going on there. They also seem to be doing what they can to make things affordable, hopefully without sacrificing too much in the meantime. (As I noted previously, with them advertising degrees that require less hours than other schools, what is being left out, if anything?) I don't really know much about the faculty there otherwise. They have had some turmoil there with the past few presidents, so hopefully they are entering a better period now. 

I suspect that this is a much better choice than the two others. And I think the non-SBC tuition is still cheaper than RTS and a lot of other evangelical seminaries and I understand that MBTS has the lowest tuition. (Among accredited seminaries that would be remotely worth considering, TMS is one of the few that is cheaper, although I don't know if they have any distance option at all.) 

Unless something has changed, I think if you sign what amounts to a "letter of intent" that you will seek a call in a Southern Baptist church that you can still get the discount, even if your current membership isn't SBC. (Of course, if that isn't the case, it doesn't apply.) The SBC is so loose that there are churches that give a minimal amount so that they can be considered "cooperating" and thus get the seminary discount for their members (or pastors.) 

In a sense I've been where you are, although I'm about 10 years younger. About 8 years ago I considered going to seminary but it soon became clear to me that it wasn't the right time for a number of reasons. At this point, it will probably never be the "right time" for the same reasons and maybe a few more. But maybe I will take some online classes at some point. I may end up going back to school for something or another soon, but it also may never happen.


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