# Augustine = Plato + Jesus?



## WrittenFromUtopia (Oct 18, 2005)

Can we fault Augustine from drawing heavily from Plato in his reasoning and arguments for Christianity and within that worldview? What else did he have to use? Or do you not believe he drew from Plato at all (if this is the case you have a lot to show me in proof)?

Thoughts?


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## Saiph (Oct 18, 2005)

He probably drew ideas from Plato, but who cares ?

As long as he judged those thoughts by Scripture, and discarded what did not hold true, nothing is wrong. Can Plato reveal a truth about the world in general or the soul of man ?


As Schaeffer said, "All truth is God's truth".


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Oct 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Saiph_
> He probably drew ideas from Plato, but who cares ?
> 
> As long as he judged those thoughts by Scripture, and discarded what did not hold true, nothing is wrong. Can Plato reveal a truth about the world in general or the soul of man ?
> ...



You don't have to get defensive of Augustine. I'm not condemning Augusting for being Platonic. In fact, in the very first statement, I said "can we fault him for being this way?" in not so many words. I don't think we can. What else did he have to work with? There was no Christian philosophical worldview as of yet (and not for a very long, long time, did anyone seem to attempt one!). Aquinas is "guilty" of the same thing, obviously, borrowing from existing philosophical premises and presuppositions in order to rationalize and explain Scripture.

I guess what I'm asking is, 1. do we have a right to be critical of them for doing this, and 2. should we be afraid to confront this when it is shoved in our face by pagans?


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## rgrove (Oct 18, 2005)

1) Sometimes we can be critical of it. I would say Aquinas went too far towards Aristotle myself. But I don't feel an overwhelming sense of Plato when I read Augustine. Maybe I'm just not sensitive enough to it, but I don't think so. 

2) Like was previously said, "all truth is God's truth". Using truths that may overlap with a pagan's philosophy doesn't condemn a Christian's teaching automatically because it isn't an endorsement of everything they wrote. Paul quoted pagans, but didn't endorse everything they wrote. Why can't we? Non-Christians seem happy to quote Jesus (the golden rule, etc) and not endorse everything he said as well.


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## Saiph (Oct 18, 2005)

I guess what I'm asking is, 

1. do we have a right to be critical of them for doing this, and

No

2. should we be afraid to confront this when it is shoved in our face by pagans? 

No.


Brother, one thing you need to know about me is that I am often terse or laconic in my posts. This gets me in trouble many times. I am almost never angry or trying to be harsh. So, I was not defending Augustine, I was defending Plato. 

I typically do not use smileys, because they seem a bit gay. 
If I am being harsh I will use profanity, so don't worry. :bigsmile:


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Oct 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by rgrove_
> 1) Sometimes we can be critical of it. I would say Aquinas went too far towards Aristotle myself. But I don't feel an overwhelming sense of Plato when I read Augustine. Maybe I'm just not sensitive enough to it, but I don't think so.



Have you read, _On the Free Choice of the Will_ by Augustine? Plato is everywhere in that treatise, from what I have gathered thus far.

I wasn't trying to be harsh either, Saiph, just making sure you knew I wasn't condemning Plato or Augustine, either.


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## rgrove (Oct 18, 2005)

Like I said, maybe I wasn't sensitive enough to it when I read it.  I just know that Aristotle screams at me from what I've read of Aquinas, but it's been a while since I read Augustine. Couple years by now maybe.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Oct 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by rgrove_
> Like I said, maybe I wasn't sensitive enough to it when I read it.  I just know that Aristotle screams at me from what I've read of Aquinas, but it's been a while since I read Augustine. Couple years by now maybe.



Well, I have not spent enough time with Plato, either. So, I could be wrong and just believing what I hear from others.


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## SRoper (Oct 18, 2005)

"Whatever philosophers, therefore, thought concerning the supreme God, that He is both the maker of all created things, the light by which things are known, and the good in reference to which things are to be done; that we have in Him the first principle of nature, the truth of doctrine, and the happiness of life--whether these philosophers may be more suitabley called Platonists, or wheter they may give some other name to their sect ... we prefer these to all other philosophers, and confess that they approach nearest to us."

_City of God_ Book VIII Ch. 9


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## Puritan Sailor (Oct 18, 2005)

Augustien did a great deal to refute Platonism too. We can't forget that. He knew it well and rejected it. But we also need to keep in mind that Greek philosophy was a huge cultural influence back then. It became the language of how to talk about God because that was the intellectual language in that time. This is especially true in the Greek side of the Church. The Latins began forging their own path, especially thanks to Augustine, but the greek influence was still felt. It was the predominant influence in the Early Creeds. Notice the language used about God. It is often the same language used to describe Plato's forms. The debates over the nature and persons of the Trinity were also framed by the Greek understanding of these terms.


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