# A Clarification on Lutheran churches if you please



## kvanlaan (Apr 18, 2007)

Just a quick question: I've never been real familiar with Lutheran churches, but while in college, I had only the choice of about 75 SBCs or two Reformed (or so I thought): A presbyterian one and a Lutheran one.

I visited the Lutheran church once with my girlfriend (now wife) and everything was fine and normal until the priest/minister took a knee at the front of the church, got back up and pronounced our sins forgiven. 

My jaw nearly hit the floor and I've never been back to a Lutheran church since. Was this a splinter church? It was in Shawnee, Oklahoma.

Can someone please enlighten me? Is this normal? 

Thanks!


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## spicedparrot (Apr 18, 2007)

*Interesting*

Well, as with any denomination you'll get some variety between churches in a particularly synod. Despite common perception Lutheran's today in the LCMS are essentially a "federation" (think URCNA structure)- not quite purely congregational but not episcopalian either. 

As for what you saw that strikes me as very unusual BUT...

Confession/Absolution is an essential part of most confessional Lutheran services. Therefore, in any confessional church you visit you will most likely start the service with confession and then the Pastor, on the basis of the Word, will declare/announce the forgiveness of sins - or to put it in another word give "absolution" for their sins.

But of course, you'll find the same in Calvin's liturgies, most older liturgies in the presbyterian traditions. For a good analysis of these liturgies from a presbyterian perspective I recommend D.G. Hart's book "Recovering Mother Kirk"


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## Rev. Todd Ruddell (Apr 18, 2007)

In our worship service at Christ Covenant Reformed Presb. Church, we recite the Law (Exod 20.1-17) followed by public prayer confessing our sin, and asking for God's mercy in Christ. After that prayer, I read a pertinent portion of Scripture declaring God's forgiveness in Christ. In older presbyterian liturgies, this was called "public confession of sin", and "absolution". We call the first the same, and the second we call "Ecouragement of the forgiveness of sins to God's people". 

Really, the same in modern language. 

I'm not for kneeling and making the pronouncement, it must come from the word of God, and the minister speaking those words as "the voice of God to the people" as the Westminster Directory so aptly characterized it.


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## Archlute (Apr 18, 2007)

I do not have a problem with a minister reading a Gospel passage following a confession of sins, nor even saying "to all who are resting upon Christ for their salvation, these promises belong to you", or the like. What I do not like is when a minister gives a bare assertion to the congregation in the manner of, "beloved, your sins are forgiven", etc. There is no basis for that pronouncement without the stipulations of faith. The minister says something as if it were true and done, when in reality he has no idea if it is true and done for all who are present. It makes for a formalistic, ritualistic, liturgical practice producing a nominalistic congregation, and does not demand any real faith and repentance from the listener. 

We attended a church for sometime where the pastor did this exact thing on a weekly basis, and I certainly believe it to be a flawed and harmful practice. A bare pronouncement of forgiveness, especially when combined with non-applicatory redemptive-historical preaching, is deadly to a lively faith. It does not matter if Calvin himself practiced this, it is not a helpful nor a Scriptural understanding of things.

Of course, adding rituals such as kneeling is even more of a problem. Did God just forgive you due to the priest's kneeling action? Did the apostles practice funny little motions to add zing to their preaching? No. It is all just warmed over Romanism, which will end up breeding superstition. We attended worship at a Lutheran church here in town during a Christmas service several years ago, and every time the minister would walk past the cross behind the pulpit, he would turn towards it (back facing the congregation), and bow while muttering something in Latin. Nice, I'm sure all present (including God) were impressed by his idolatry.

The sooner that Reformed churches can return to Holy Spirit enabled and well studied preaching, the sooner we can feel free to dispense with this type of nonsense, for there is no need to find ways to fill up time during the service where our preaching sets forth the power of the Gospel, and is not lacking.


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## Staphlobob (Apr 18, 2007)

A number of years ago a visiting SB was also offended by the absolution. The Lutheran Book of Worship (1978) has the pastor say:

"Almighty God, in his mercy, has given his Son to die for us and, for his sake, forgives us all our sins. As a called and ordained minister of the Church of Christ, and by his authority, I therefore declare to you the entire forgiveness of all your sins, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

The thing that's of crucial significance is the phrase "I therefore declare to you..." Unlike the Roman priest, the Lutheran pastor doesn't forgive anyone their sins. He merely "declares" it. Lutherans base this practice on John 20:21-23.


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