# Christian entertainment



## TKarrer (Dec 7, 2009)

I'm perplexed by how many "conservative" Christians seem to lose their minds when it comes to movies and television. When I read the Puritans, and the Bible, I hear prohibitions against partaking in worldly, Christ-belittling "entertainment"; and yet I know lots of people who read solid, Reformed work, and go to conservative churches, and yet indulge their flesh in movies that blaspheme, promote all types of sin, mock true religion, and ignore God. 

If you're someone who doesnt think watching movies that propagate sin and ignore the Scriptures is wrong, please help me to understand how it is you believe it ok to join the world in such things? 

Don't the commands to keep oneself unspotted in the world, come out from among the world and being separate, and avoid even the appearance of evil- don't these commands prohibit engaging in this type of worldly entertainment? And doesn't the holiness of God show us that He does not take such matters to be insignificant?

If you agree with me on this, have you likewise encountered people who read and enjoy the puritans, and yet behave as examples of Christ in just about every area of their life besides tv and movies?


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## rbcbob (Dec 8, 2009)

Thomas,

Let me say in the first place that I have much sympathy with what you have expressed and you will find many on this board who would agree.

With that said I find that as both a Christian member of a "conservative Reformed Baptist" church as well as an elder in that church that my list of what is conducive to sanctification and what is not so conducive varies to greater and lesser degrees among like-minded confessional brethren.

There is ever the danger to, on the one hand, be slowly seduced by the world and, on the other hand lapse into a written list of what all should see as approved; i.e. legalism.

Finding the balance for oneself and figuring out how, and how much, to tolerate in others is no small attainment.



> Romans 14: 22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.


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## Claudiu (Dec 8, 2009)

I think the reason a lot of Christian, even Reformed and even more, Puritan minded folks, partake in the worldly or secular entertainment is the desensitization. Many people have just gotten too used to seeing violence, bad language, etc on t.v., the movies, and so on that it doesn't jump out as it should. Also, people tend to compartmentalize things. So when they are in a religious context they will have a different attitude as opposed to when they are at the movies watching something that they probably shouldn't. In other words, devotional truths stay at devotion time, truths learned in church don't always go out the door with us, and so when these Christians get out into the world they act like the others around them instead of being different.
Just my two cents.


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## TKarrer (Dec 8, 2009)

Pastor Bob,

Thank you for your reply. My greatest concern isn't even just a matter of what is and isn't conducive to sanctification, but what is honoring to God. Furthermore, wouldn't it follow that those things which are of themselves evil, and forbidden in Scripture to partake of, would universally be forbidden to draw entertainment from? And if so, then whether a person is convicted by their engagement in this thing or not makes no difference; the standard of God stands.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't legalism the subjection of a man under some law, in order to secure right standing before God? Doesnt it have to do with submitting to law for the purpose of being seen as righteous before God? Even if this isnt a sound definition though, it still stands that what God lists as sin is sin. If cussing, or perverse talk, is sin in God's eyes, then certainly it is likewise sin for a saint to soak in such things, and all in the name of entertainment.

I do know there are various things which we cannot say are evil of themselves, but surely movies and tv that blaspheme God and promote sin arent among those things.


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## au5t1n (Dec 8, 2009)

There is certainly a danger that by repeatedly exposing ourselves to and getting joy out of portrayals of sin, we slowly numb ourselves to sin. Thanks for the reminder.


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## Claudiu (Dec 8, 2009)

What a coincidence...the "Second Day Evening - Bounty" from the Valley of Vision that I read tonight has a line that goes:
"Let us live out of the world as to its spirit, maxim, manners, 
but live in it as the sphere of our action and usefulness."
I thought that was appropriate to add with the theme of the thread.


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## rbcbob (Dec 8, 2009)

TKarrer said:


> Pastor Bob,
> 
> Thank you for your reply. My greatest concern isn't even just a matter of what is and isn't conducive to sanctification, but what is honoring to God. Furthermore, wouldn't it follow that those things which are of themselves evil, and forbidden in Scripture to partake of, would universally be forbidden to draw entertainment from? And if so, then whether a person is convicted by their engagement in this thing or not makes no difference; the standard of God stands.
> 
> ...




Thomas, there is something in us that longs for a simplicity and unity in these matters that our Lord in His wisdom has not required.



> *Romans 14:4-5 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.*





> *1 Corinthians 8:7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.*





> “Furthermore, wouldn't it follow that those things which are of themselves evil, and forbidden in Scripture to partake of, would universally be forbidden to draw entertainment from?”



Murder is in and of itself evil and yet we read biographies of faithful saints and martyrs in which murders are recounted unto our edification. 



> “Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't legalism the subjection of a man under some law, in order to secure right standing before God?”



One can seek not only justification by legalism but also sanctification by the same means and they are both wrong. If I construct for myself, or have someone provide me with an extensive list of dos and don’ts whereby I will, in the compliance of them seek to establish and maintain my holiness then I have departed from the Scriptures. 



> “If cussing, or perverse talk, is sin in God's eyes, then certainly it is likewise sin for a saint to soak in such things, and all in the name of entertainment.”



Whether or not the inclusion of perverse language in a book or movie is ever, or always wise is open to vigorous debate. I would undoubtedly find myself on the opposite end of some of my beloved brethren but would seek to allow him his own conscience and judgment before God.

Again I have much sympathy with your assessments and would be less troubled if more of my brethren saw these matters differently than they do. But I must give my brother the space for heart dealings with God that He has granted them.


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## jason d (Dec 8, 2009)

This might help: What In the World Is ?Worldliness?? Providing Some Biblical Clarity On a Misused Term | RBS Tabletalk


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## Jack K (Dec 8, 2009)

Two points:

Point #1. As several here have said, the New Testament makes this a matter of a believer's conscience and his heart. Take movies, for example. I need to avoid movies with nudity because my heart always enjoys it in a lustful way. But I never enjoy violence on screen simply for the violence. So I give myself more freedom with those movies.

I have a friend who’s the opposite. Nudity doesn’t make him lust (he claims). But he wanted to go to the latest zombie movie because he gets a kick out of seeing characters killed in increasingly gruesome ways. If that were me, I’d have to be careful of movies depicting violence, even if the violence wasn’t gratuitous.

Point #2. We need to recognize the difference between movies that glory in sin—like that zombie flick or gratuitous sex comedies—and those that depict sin but deal with it seriously. Christians have rightly been accused of making boring and irrelevant “Christian movies” because we have, in many cases, over sanitized them. You can’t have a redemptive film if it doesn’t first have something poignant to say about sin and brokenness.

To be careless about what we watch and how it affects our hearts is a mistake. But it’s also unwise to have a knee-jerk reaction against every depiction of sin. We end up looking both shallow and judgmental, and maybe we are.


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## MikelKenn89 (Dec 8, 2009)

cecat90 said:


> I think the reason a lot of Christian, even Reformed and even more, Puritan minded folks, partake in the worldly or secular entertainment is the desensitization. Many people have just gotten too used to seeing violence, bad language, etc on t.v., the movies, and so on that it doesn't jump out as it should. Also, people tend to compartmentalize things. So when they are in a religious context they will have a different attitude as opposed to when they are at the movies watching something that they probably shouldn't. In other words, devotional truths stay at devotion time, truths learned in church don't always go out the door with us, and so when these Christians get out into the world they act like the others around them instead of being different.
> Just my two cents.



exactly... plus I must say atleast when it comes to Films, "christian" movies often come very low budget and are just plain bad, 

one of my favorite authors is Christian Fictional writer Ted Dekker. i Love his books. but when it comes to his books being made into movies the quality suffers

I also think some of your christian Comedians are pretty cheesy and dry. *though there are some excellent ones*

why is this? its because the world hates Christianity so it doesnt budget it when it comes to films or entertainment


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## TKarrer (Dec 8, 2009)

Pastor Bob,
With all due respect Sir, I don't think those passages are referring to the enjoyment of things that glorify sin. The food offered to idols, as Paul tells us, is clean of itself, for food is from God, and idols don't really exist. I do believe there are matters to be left to conscience, but that these matters cannot be evil of themselves. Another example would be alcohol. I enjoy alcohol on occassion; but since I am aware it may cause another to stumble, I do all that is in my power to not allow my liberty to offend a weaker brother. 

Movies that glorify sin are much different. Such movies are nothing like watching gross violence depicted in a martyr film. We are exposing ourselves, if we choose, to see that type of violence to strengthen our faith, glory in the wonder of the Cross' power to embolden, wonder at the sinfulness of those who persecute, etc. When we watch gross violence in a film that is violent simply for the sake of being violent- no reference to God's glory in the film, whether in word or principle- we are entertaining ourselves with the devils' joys. Movies that drag the name of God in the mud seem the most inexcusable. Can we really justify listening to people blaspheme God in that way, when our reason for doing so is entertainment? 

I agree that I cannot simply condemn someone for this, or deal with it in a harsh manner that might betray unwillingness to be broken over my own sin, but I firmly believe a Pastor, as many Puritans, and George Whitfield, and Jonathan Edwards did, ought to preach against these types of entertainment, in a way that exalts the Gospel and not legalism.

And I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that legalism, in reference to sanctification, would still be the idea that we can make or keep ourselves right before God through obedience to law. I believe we ought to abide by the lawof Christ, but I do not think my weaknesses and failures make me less justified before God.


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## Osage Bluestem (Dec 8, 2009)

I've been feeling guilty all morning about watching a "comedy" movie last night with my wife that I am convinced that God hates. It was depraved and full of sin, yet it was supposed to be a romantic comedy. I wish I had shut it off instead of watching the whole thing. Some of the situations in the movie were sort of funny and I did want the couple to get married etc...so I kept watching it. I have a problem with entertainment. I never know where the line is, or am fully aware and just in a light mood and pop in a movie from blockbuster or on cable and then I cross it and feel guilty about it later. This one had cursing, nudity, flagrant promotion of sinful lifestyles, and drug use all wrapped up in a neat little romantic comedy package.


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## TKarrer (Dec 8, 2009)

jason d said:


> This might help: What In the World Is ?Worldliness?? Providing Some Biblical Clarity On a Misused Term | RBS Tabletalk



Thanks for posting that. I think that article hit the nail on the head when it said the true substance of worldliness lay in our affections and desires. But this is obviously the problem: people are exposing themselves to movies that glorify sin, and most certainly because their hearts are inclined to, and yet because their is no command that states one cannot watch movies that blaspheme God's name, etc., they believe it's simply a matter of conscience. 

He also wisely states we cannot replace Gospel-centered thinking and living with legalism. And to that I say, 'Amen.' With the Gospel central, and that God be glorified, it seems reasonable and clear that Christians shouldn't join the world in watching filth that mocks the holiness of God, for the sake of entertainment.

For anyone who hasn't read it:
A book I read just under 2 years ago, which really convicted me and exalted Christ- with regards to some of the issues we are talking about- is "The Great Gain of Godliness", by Thomas Watson.


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## rbcbob (Dec 8, 2009)

TKarrer said:


> Pastor Bob,
> With all due respect Sir, I don't think those passages are referring to *the enjoyment of things that glorify sin*. The food offered to idols, as Paul tells us, is clean of itself, for food is from God, and idols don't really exist. I do believe there are matters to be left to conscience, but that these matters cannot be evil of themselves. Another example would be alcohol. I enjoy alcohol on occassion; but since I am aware it may cause another to stumble, I do all that is in my power to not allow my liberty to offend a weaker brother.
> 
> Movies *that glorify sin* are much different. Such movies are nothing like watching gross violence depicted in a martyr film. We are exposing ourselves, if we choose, to see that type of violence to strengthen our faith, glory in the wonder of the Cross' power to embolden, wonder at the sinfulness of those who persecute, etc. When we watch gross violence in a film that is violent simply for the sake of being violent- no reference to God's glory in the film, whether in word or principle- we are entertaining ourselves with the devils' joys. Movies that drag the name of God in the mud seem the most inexcusable. Can we really justify listening to people blaspheme God in that way, when our reason for doing so is entertainment?
> ...




Brother your expostulations have been rather vague and as such impossible to garner a clear "amen" from me. Perhaps you would make bold and name several movies and tv programs that fit the target of your OP; i.e. programs that you believe clearly are sinful and which you puzzle over the fact that puritan and reformed minded believers view for their "entertainment.


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## TKarrer (Dec 8, 2009)

Here's some:

The Boondock Saints 2
Crank 2
Fast and Furious 4
Madea Goes to Jail
Street Fighter
Terminator Salvation
Transformers 2
GI Joe

These arent particular ones I disliked, or that I think are the worst. I just pulled up a list of 2009 movies, and found a handful of the ones I know people watched; and most of which I was invited to go see and, after looking up the info on, decided I wouldnt go see.


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## JennyG (Dec 8, 2009)

I think the OP makes a very good point and one that has often and often been a concern to me.
I also would have wanted to second Bob's suggestion


rbcbob said:


> Perhaps you would make bold and name several movies and tv programs that fit the target of your OP; i.e. programs that you believe clearly are sinful and which you puzzle over the fact that puritan and reformed minded believers view for their "entertainment.


......but your list unfortunately sheds no light for me! Most of those films I have barely heard of, and I certainly haven't seen any of them (they sound like guys' titles).
I will mention instead just one film that has caused me concern in the sort of way I think you mean.
"Clueless" is based on Jane Austen and is a very clever and funny film, very popular with some of my family. I've often watched it with them, not wanting to put barriers between us by holding aloof. I suppose most people would say it was totally harmless. However I never feel happy about having watched it, because of the assumptions it makes and the behaviours it condones.
I'd be really interested to know what anyone else thinks.


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## au5t1n (Dec 8, 2009)

Interesting...I haven't watched the movies on your list, but it looks to me like it is violence you dislike in a movie. See, for me, it would have been movies that promote deviant sexual lifestyles that would be on my "don't watch" list. I don't have a problem watching gunfights and such. Am I misunderstanding what you don't like about the kind of films on your list?


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## awretchsavedbygrace (Dec 8, 2009)

Maybe Ill be just a "echo", but so be it. I certainly think its a thing of Christian liberty and conscience. If your conscience keeps pounding you over some movies you want to watch, then you should not watch them. I do think that there are movies that a Christian should have no business watching. Movies like 40 year old virgin, American pie..These are movies that promote fornication. The bible warns us about calling evil good and good evil. Fornication, and sexual impurity is a evil. And these movies openly promote having sex before marriage, lust, adultery, etc. just my


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## Kim G (Dec 8, 2009)

Here is John Piper's take on this issue:

"I have a high tolerance for violence, high tolerance for bad language, and zero tolerance for nudity. There is a reason for these differences. The violence is make-believe. They don’t really mean those bad words. But that lady is really naked, and I am really watching. And somewhere she has a brokenhearted father."

See the whole article here.

Reactions: Like 1


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## JennyG (Dec 8, 2009)

Kim G said:


> Here is John Piper's take on this issue:
> 
> "I have a high tolerance for violence, high tolerance for bad language, and zero tolerance for nudity. There is a reason for these differences. The violence is make-believe. They don’t really mean those bad words. But that lady is really naked, and I am really watching. And somewhere she has a brokenhearted father."


two very good points but I'm not so sure about the third.
Who knows whether they mean the bad words? and if they are blasphemous bad words, those speaking them can't possibly be right-minded or they wouldn't say them, even "acting"


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## Augusta (Dec 8, 2009)

I will name a few I have heard people on this board say they watch that have puzzled me. They all contain rank feminism, sexuality, violence, and blaspheming the Lords name.

-Battlestar Galactica 
-24
-Lost

The violence is may be from my limited experience with them, in the pursuit of justice but not all of it. The rest is just gratuitious.


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## Claudiu (Dec 8, 2009)

Kim G said:


> Here is John Piper's take on this issue:
> 
> "I have a high tolerance for violence, high tolerance for bad language, and zero tolerance for nudity. There is a reason for these differences. The violence is make-believe. They don’t really mean those bad words. But that lady is really naked, and I am really watching. And somewhere she has a brokenhearted father."
> 
> See the whole article here.



I was thinking this to differentiate between violence and nudity or sexually related content. Violence like in a Clint Eastwood western movie doesn't seem crazy because its so old now and the special effects make it totally obvious that its fake. Another probably bloody movie, or series rather, is the Band of Brothers.


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## Augusta (Dec 8, 2009)

Here is a good sermon on this subject: Should Christians Watch Movies?

Also a mea culpa, I am not perfect in this regard at all. I still find myself sifting and trying to find something that I can watch because I have always been a movie buff. It gets harder all the time and I have slipped by not turning off things that I should. I watched Snow Walker last night because it was PG. Well it had a lascivious scene in it without nudity, I think, I immediately fast forwarded. I didn't turn it off and I should have. There were also 3rd commandment violations in it.  Now I have guilt. 

-----Added 12/8/2009 at 03:24:27 EST-----



cecat90 said:


> Kim G said:
> 
> 
> > Here is John Piper's take on this issue:
> ...



I can't justify that argument because the goal of the movie is to realistically portray these things so as to immerse you in the story. To make it real for you the viewer because that it what you want. 

It is also not just the sex, violence, and blasphemy all these shows are laced with various secular and pagan worldviews and philosophies. They are trying to convert you. Think of every show as a secular or pagan sermon in the temple of mammon because that is essentially what they are. 

Even the movie I watched last night Snow Walker although you would all call it tame it was awful in so many ways but packaged in such a nice package. The Inuits were very interesting and enchanting in their simplicity. It was subtley promoting the superiority of their nature worshipping native life. The American was portrayed as a bumbling idiot, which was correct in my view because his lifestyle was less than savory. Anyway, all that to say that every movie has a theme and moral of the story. They are like sermons.


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## Claudiu (Dec 8, 2009)

Augusta said:


> Here is a good sermon on this subject: Should Christians Watch Movies?
> 
> Also a mea culpa, I am not perfect in this regard at all. I still find myself sifting and trying to find something that I can watch because I have always been a movie buff. It gets harder all the time and I have slipped by not turning off things that I should. I watched Snow Walker last night because it was PG. Well it had a lascivious scene in it without nudity, I think, I immediately fast forwarded. I didn't turn it off and I should have. There were also 3rd commandment violations in it.  Now I have guilt.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the insight.


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## Tripel (Dec 8, 2009)

awretchsavedbygrace said:


> I do think that there are movies that a Christian should have no business watching. Movies like 40 year old virgin, American pie..These are movies that promote fornication.



I've seen both of the movies you mentioned, and I agree with you about American Pie, but not 40 Year Old Virgin. 

EVERYBODY NOTE: THIS IS NOT AN ENDORSEMENT. THE MOVIE IS FLAT OUT VULGAR.

With that said, there at least IS a redemptive element in the 40 Year Old Virgin. I got half-way through the movie when first watching it, and I turned it off due to the vulgarity. The next day (out of curiosity how it ends) I watched the remaining half of the movie, and I was glad I did. It has a redemptive ending. While the "virgin" is constantly ridiculed for his virginity, the movie itself promotes his decision to wait until marriage. He gets married at the end and is depicted as being the truly happy one.


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## JennyG (Dec 8, 2009)

Augusta said:


> Here is a good sermon on this subject: Should Christians Watch Movies?
> 
> Also a mea culpa, I am not perfect in this regard at all. I still find myself sifting and trying to find something that I can watch because I have always been a movie buff. It gets harder all the time and I have slipped by not turning off things that I should. I watched Snow Walker last night because it was PG. Well it had a lascivious scene in it without nudity, I think, I immediately fast forwarded. I didn't turn it off and I should have. There were also 3rd commandment violations in it.  Now I have guilt.


I'm sure this is true of all of us at some time. I have an especially big grudge against films that are _mostly_ good and clean but from which you can't separate a strain of bad. Those are the ones that make it really difficult. 
Still I think Thomas is right


> Originally Posted by TKarrer
> 
> I do know there are various things which we cannot say are evil of themselves, but surely movies and tv that blaspheme God and promote sin arent among those things.




-----Added 12/8/2009 at 03:52:44 EST-----



> Anyway, all that to say that every movie has a theme and moral of the story. They are like sermons.


oh boy you can say that again.
My boys used to immerse themselves in Star Trek. I wasn't really paying too much attention, just grateful that the stories were invariably sexually clean. It was only gradually I noticed the unrelenting preaching of evolutionism, humanism, feminism....!


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## awretchsavedbygrace (Dec 8, 2009)

Tripel said:


> awretchsavedbygrace said:
> 
> 
> > I do think that there are movies that a Christian should have no business watching. Movies like 40 year old virgin, American pie..These are movies that promote fornication.
> ...



Dont mean to nitpick but you dont agree with me that "40 year old virgin" promote's fornication? Really? Ill take your word for it, that it was a "redemptive ending". I saw about a hour. I turned it off because I felt that I was wasting my time.


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## Tripel (Dec 8, 2009)

awretchsavedbygrace said:


> Dont mean to nitpick but you dont agree with me that "40 year old virgin" promote's fornication?



I'd say the movie depicts characters who promote fornication, but they are also depicted as being foolish. If the movie "promotes" anything, it's the main character's decision to wait until marriage.


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## awretchsavedbygrace (Dec 8, 2009)

Tripel said:


> awretchsavedbygrace said:
> 
> 
> > Dont mean to nitpick but you dont agree with me that "40 year old virgin" promote's fornication?
> ...



The main character is quite foolish himself throughout the movie.


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## Tripel (Dec 8, 2009)

awretchsavedbygrace said:


> The main character is quite foolish himself throughout the movie.



That's true. 
There are a lot of problems with the movie, so I don't want it to come across that I think it's a good one for the Christian to watch. I don't. I just see it as having a redemptive element, which in my mind separates it from the complete garbage like American Pie.


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## Rich Koster (Dec 8, 2009)

I find that most broadcast TV and PG or milder movies are a whole lot less ungodly or unwholesome than what I have to put up with at work on a daily basis. It comes from the management as well as the workers and the workforce is over 50% female. I am probably desensitized to people speaking and acting in certain manners. However, I know where the line is and try not to get close to it. Contract talks are the most vulgar, accusative and outright deceptive things I have to deal with.
Some people apologize when they spew f-bombs and gd's before me. I remind them that I'm not the one they have to answer to in the end. 
One way to avoid seeing movies that push your button is to break out the magnifying glass and look at what they are rated for (the small almost unreadable print under the rating).


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## LadyCalvinist (Dec 8, 2009)

I sympathize as I have struggled for a long time with this issue. It seems that even good movies with redemptive elements like _the Blind Side_, which I saw and really liked, had some profanity in it which I was not happy about. The recent movie _Amazing Grace_ was wonderful but I was appalled that they took the name of the Lord in vain.

I go to movieguide Movieguide | The Family Guide to Christian Movie Reviews to check out any movie that I am interested in. I talk to Christian friends to see if they have recommendations on movies or tv that they like. When after I have done all of the above the pickings seem slim. I found myself trying to decide if a movie with only a little bit of profanity, or a pagan worldview is acceptable. Where do I draw the line?

Increasingly, I am of the opinion that the only movies I can safely watch are either made by Christians and with explicitly Christian content, or old movies that were made in the days of the Hays code, which forbade nudity, gratuitous violence, or demeaning religion in any way. A few movies that I can recommend are _aAMan Called Peter_ about Pastor Peter Marshall his wife was Catherine Marshall who wrote Christy,
The Robe,
Ben-Hur
Quo Vadis
and I am sure others could more name more. 

There are other issues as well. I know of people who refuse to go Hollywood movies because they feel they are giving their money to people who hate God. How I wish they made movies like they did in the old days!


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## ChariotsofFire (Dec 8, 2009)

Watching a movie with a redemptive message and profane content is like eating a delicious looking sandwich, only to find that when you bite into it, it is filled with maggots and dung. What to do with the sandwich? Throw it out. Throw out the entertainment filled with things that God hates.


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## Dwimble (Dec 8, 2009)

ChariotsofFire said:


> Watching a movie with a redemptive message and profane content is like eating a delicious looking sandwich, only to find that when you bite into it, it is filled with maggots and dung. What to do with the sandwich? Throw it out. Throw out the entertainment filled with things that God hates.



In principle I agree, but I've seen similar arguments used to condemn everything from X-rated movies to Mother Goose...and even Christian-themed fiction or music.

There are many things that are clearly sinful with no value whatsoever that we should have no part of. Conversely, there are a few things that have great value and would clearly be of great benefit to many. And finally there are a large number of things that fall somewhere in the middle. With regards to the latter we must follow our own consciences before God and not condemn our brothers for eating the "unclean" sandwich. Just as they should be careful that they don't serve up those sandwiches to their brothers and possibly make some of them sick.


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## ChariotsofFire (Dec 9, 2009)

Dwimble said:


> ChariotsofFire said:
> 
> 
> > Watching a movie with a redemptive message and profane content is like eating a delicious looking sandwich, only to find that when you bite into it, it is filled with maggots and dung. What to do with the sandwich? Throw it out. Throw out the entertainment filled with things that God hates.
> ...



I can see the danger in arguing to restrict others too far and binding other's consciences. It is difficult sometimes to know how to be in the world and not of it.


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## TKarrer (Dec 9, 2009)

Dwimble said:


> And finally there are a large number of things that fall somewhere in the middle. With regards to the latter we must follow our own consciences before God and not condemn our brothers for eating the "unclean" sandwich. Just as they should be careful that they don't serve up those sandwiches to their brothers and possibly make some of them sick.



I think this leaves too much room in between. To say a movie that may have redemptive qualities to it (which basically never is truly redemptive- in the sense that someone goes from hating to loving God, through Christ), but which also takes the name of God in vain, is acceptable if one's conscience allows for it, seems to contradict the flow of the Bible. I might understand such reasoning if the movie actually portrayed a sinner being converted to a saint; but that's just typically not the case. And even then, who would we be to re-enact the sins God crushed His Son for?

Who are we to say things are acceptable or not, simply because they may have some descent qualities to them? God forbids cursing, course jesting, murder, fornication, blasphemy, etc.; so how can we justify ingesting these things for the sake of entertainment?

I've yet to hear a compelling argument, from Scripture or otherwise, which comes close to providing a sound basis for justifying this type of "fun".


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## NRB (Dec 9, 2009)

Basically I say that if it doesn't feel right, don't watch it/listen to it.

I suggest that brothers and sisters try not to be so legalistic in regards to entertainment that it makes it into a works based "oh that movie is bad and God wouldn't like it!" type situation. That's just me.
I left an SBC church that condemned every chance they got regarding secular entertainment, so I am jaded I guess.
Just use your Christian mind and heart in this regard.


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## Jack K (Dec 9, 2009)

TKarrer said:


> Who are we to say things are acceptable or not, simply because they may have some descent qualities to them? God forbids cursing, course jesting, murder, fornication, blasphemy, etc.; so how can we justify ingesting these things for the sake of entertainment?



The idea that we judge a movie merely on the basis of "objectionable content" might work if our only purpose in watching is entertainment. But when we watch something as art, it gets more complicated. A movie's message and purpose must be considered.

The movie "Schindler's List" had full nudity, profanity and extreme violence. It didn't have a Christian agenda. But it did have a message that cared about God's world and those he created.

The cartoon movie "Prince of Egypt" had no nudity, no swear words and no extreme violence. It was about a Bible story. But it took that story and warped it into a message that said "believe in yourself."

Now which of these movies should a Christian view as most obnoxious?


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## TKarrer (Dec 9, 2009)

NRB said:


> Basically I say that if it doesn't feel right, don't watch it/listen to it.
> 
> I suggest that brothers and sisters try not to be so legalistic in regards to entertainment that it makes it into a works based "oh that movie is bad and God wouldn't like it!" type situation. That's just me.
> I left an SBC church that condemned every chance they got regarding secular entertainment, so I am jaded I guess.
> Just use your Christian mind and heart in this regard.



Thanks for the exhortation. I guess I just don't see saying "that movie is bad and God wouldnt like it" as necessarily being something "works based". I might say,"that movie profanes the character of God, and God wouldnt be glorified by His saints watching it"; and my heart's motivation for saying it would be Gospel-based. I agree legalism is bad; and from what Ive heard, there are many Christians whose churches suffer from that. 

No one here seems to be saying we shouldnt watch filthy movies (or tv, etc.) because to do so would jeopardize our position before God. And thats what legalism would be though. Refraining from worldly enjoyments for our sanctification, and for the glory of Christ, is about God and His Gospel, not about works-righteousness.

-----Added 12/9/2009 at 12:25:20 EST-----



Jack K said:


> TKarrer said:
> 
> 
> > Who are we to say things are acceptable or not, simply because they may have some descent qualities to them? God forbids cursing, course jesting, murder, fornication, blasphemy, etc.; so how can we justify ingesting these things for the sake of entertainment?
> ...



I guess I dont see a need to distinguish between the two and which is more obnoxious. Watching something as art is still for the sake of enjoyment, which would fall under what I deemed entertainment; something we do for fun, contrasted with something we do in obedience to God (like work in secular settings). 

Ive never seen Schindlers List. Is its purpose not to glorify sin, but to show its devastation? If it glorifies sin, then why watch it? Will we watch things that glorify sin in heaven? Again, I dont know about that film in particular though. Some movies people act like are absolute "must-sees". Movies that have to be an exception because everyone has seen them. Why though? Its sad that a Christian who abstains from things like this is often viewed as the weirdo. 

Why cant we just heed the wisdom of JC Ryle, and AW Pink, and John Calvin, and CH Spurgeon, and Thomas Watson? Did they not see the direction the church was heading and exhort all who would desire to follow Christ?


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## Pergamum (Dec 9, 2009)

Jack K said:


> TKarrer said:
> 
> 
> > Who are we to say things are acceptable or not, simply because they may have some descent qualities to them? God forbids cursing, course jesting, murder, fornication, blasphemy, etc.; so how can we justify ingesting these things for the sake of entertainment?
> ...



Hmmm...interesting and thought-provoking.


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## Tim (Dec 9, 2009)

NRB said:


> Basically I say that if it doesn't feel right, don't watch it/listen to it.



If you are talking about a nagging conscience, then I would agree with you.

-----Added 12/9/2009 at 02:11:22 EST-----

Let's take a simple example from sitcoms.

A common story line is a husband who does something foolish and engages in a string of lies to prevent his wife from finding out. The comedy is derived from the web of trouble he gets into as he lies. When he is finally found out, there will not be a Biblical pattern of repentance and asking for forgiveness.

There is great danger here, people. I am convinced that this sort of entertainment, if attended regularly, starts to mold our own pattern of behavior. Perhaps not in the overt way, but by gradually weakening our sensitivity to the seriousness of sin. 

Another important thing to mention is that this sort of story line goes back many decades. Just watch an old TV show of 'I Love Lucy'. Or even farther, go into the 'golden age' of 1940's radio comedies such as 'Amos and Andy'.

Let us at least be sensitive when we are seeing these things:

Character violates 9th commandment...character violates 9th commandment...character violates 9th commandment...character violates 9th commandment....

Believe me, you will lose your interest soon enough.

-----Added 12/9/2009 at 02:12:29 EST-----

When was the last time you saw romance on the screen between *husband and wife*.


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## calgal (Dec 9, 2009)

Isn't this exactly the attitude Michael Horton warns Christians about over and over and over again? And could this be why Christian "entertainment" is so badly made?  Note that movies made under the Hayes act are as bad or worse than 9-1/2 weeks: they just hide the depravity under a pseudo moral covering.


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## Tim (Dec 9, 2009)

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you addressing something specific in my post?


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## JennyG (Dec 9, 2009)

> The movie "Schindler's List" had full nudity, profanity and extreme violence. It didn't have a Christian agenda. But it did have a message that cared about God's world and those he created.
> 
> The cartoon movie "Prince of Egypt" had no nudity, no swear words and no extreme violence. It was about a Bible story. But it took that story and warped it into a message that said "believe in yourself."
> 
> Now which of these movies should a Christian view as most obnoxious?


This was a good point Jack, but I agree with Thomas' reply:


> I guess I dont see a need to distinguish between the two and which is more obnoxious. Watching something as art is still for the sake of enjoyment, which would fall under what I deemed entertainment; something we do for fun, contrasted with something we do in obedience to God (like work in secular settings).


I think we should be pretty wary and sceptical of so-called "redemptive" films/books where (as he also pointed out) the redemption is virtually certain NOT to be a true, Biblical redemption.
For good to triumph is not really enough if the good is firmly based on worldly and humanistic values, in a universe from which God is portrayed or assumed as absent.


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## Augusta (Dec 9, 2009)

calgal said:


> Isn't this exactly the attitude Michael Horton warns Christians about over and over and over again? And could this be why Christian "entertainment" is so badly made?  Note that movies made under the Hayes act are as bad or worse than 9-1/2 weeks: they just hide the depravity under a pseudo moral covering.



Gail, I was an avid listener to the White Horse Inn for a few years when I first became Reformed. I have to respectfully disagree with Mr. Horton and his crew on this point. I have been disturbed for a while about this type of teaching that they are propagating. 

There are many, many ministers now and going back throughout history that would also disagree with them. In fact, I would have to say that the vast majority of church fathers and divines would be aghast at what they are teaching especially in light of the type of entertainment we have in our day and age.

This whole idea that you can eat the meat and spit out the bones, meaning consume the good parts of a movie, book, or song and just ignore the rest is just silly and lying to oneself. The principle of defilement in the Scriptures militates against this idea. If something was defiled it was defiled, no longer clean and not fit for consumption. It was thrown out.


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## LawrenceU (Dec 9, 2009)

I'll have to agree with Traci on this one and on what she says about what has been being taught at WHI.

No offense intended, but I offer the following:

Does a particular movie you watch spur you on to more Christlikeness? Does it cause you to desire his presence and pleasurable gaze more than anything else? Does it add anything of significance to your understanding of his nature?

Or,

Do you watch said movie for mere enjoyment / amusement / escape / etc?

It really is that simple. We are taught in Scripture to set no worthless thing before our eyes. The vast majority of what is shown on screen today is anti-God, unscriptural in its world view, and vacuous at best.

In the past I would not have said it was such a simple thing. I have changed over the years, especially as the veneer has come off of much of what is seen in mass media. The desensitization of Christians to course speech, unwholesome talk, sexual innuendo, and un-Biblical worldview in entertainment is becoming epidemic. I can't tell you how much time pastors spend in counseling that would have not been needed had the person(s) not wasted their time on 'entertainment'. And, now I'm not at all talking about p*rn.

A media that can so powerfully induce emotion and response as the modern audio/visual media do should not be partaken of lightly, not at all. I find it ironically amusing that among the people I know those who seem to most value the Puritans and Scottish Covenanters are those that have the most liberal standards about what they consider appropriate media entertainment. I think that their textual / historical heroes might just disagree with them.

And, yes, I have had to repent of much of what I used to listen to, watch, and enjoy - some of it in the past year. Time and God's glory are far too precious to squander on mere amusement, even if it might not be 'sin'. (I think that much, if not most, of what is on the screen today probably is sin.)


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## Jake (Dec 9, 2009)

I figure it is an issue with the weaker or stronger brother. I myself must be a weaker brother. I am completely disgusted when I try to watch even five minutes of the filth the world produces, but I know plenty of people that can in good conscience, so I wouldn't bother them about it.


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## Wayne (Dec 9, 2009)

LawrenceU said:


> I find it ironically amusing that among the people I know those who seem to most value the Puritans and Scottish Covenanters are those that have the most liberal standards about what they consider appropriate media entertainment.



As you are posting this on the PB, would you please qualify that statement?
Otherwise my reading of it has you pointing a finger in our cumulative direction, whereas I just haven't seen that sort of attitude portrayed here on the Board.

As the man said, " 'splain yourself."

Reactions: Like 1


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## LawrenceU (Dec 10, 2009)

Wayne said:


> LawrenceU said:
> 
> 
> > I find it ironically amusing that among the people I know those who seem to most value the Puritans and Scottish Covenanters are those that have the most liberal standards about what they consider appropriate media entertainment.
> ...



I will. But, it is very late for me right now. Just so you know: I'm not picking on anyone in particular.


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## Wayne (Dec 10, 2009)

It is late. I went to bed hours ago, but here I am awake.

It just seemed that the target of your comment lies elsewhere and I was seeking clarification.


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## Idelette (Dec 10, 2009)

This isn't in response to the OP, but I thought it might be of interest to those that desire to watch movies without viewing things that would be potentially harmful. I recently found out about this...and I'm really thankful that someone finally came up with this idea! It removes things in films such as violent images, taking the Lord's name in vain, sexual innuendo's etc. ClearPlay


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## Wayne (Dec 10, 2009)

Yvonne:

I wonder how they have managed to legally provide this service, or if it is actually a problem? Wasn't it just a few years ago that some other outfit tried this and was fought tooth and nail in the courts by Hollywood trying to preserve its vaunted "artistic expression"?


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## LawrenceU (Dec 11, 2009)

Wayne said:


> It is late. I went to bed hours ago, but here I am awake.
> 
> It just seemed that the target of your comment lies elsewhere and I was seeking clarification.




Wayne, 
I am sorry that your sleep was troubled. I know how frustrating that can be. Allow me to elaborate a bit on what I was saying. I wrote:



> In the past I would not have said it was such a simple thing. I have changed over the years, especially as the veneer has come off of much of what is seen in mass media. The desensitization of Christians to course speech, unwholesome talk, sexual innuendo, and un-Biblical worldview in entertainment is becoming epidemic. I can't tell you how much time pastors spend in counseling that would have not been needed had the person(s) not wasted their time on 'entertainment'. And, now I'm not at all talking about p*rn.
> 
> A media that can so powerfully induce emotion and response as the modern audio/visual media do should not be partaken of lightly, not at all. I find it ironically amusing that among the people I know those who seem to most value the Puritans and Scottish Covenanters are those that have the most liberal standards about what they consider appropriate media entertainment. I think that their textual / historical heroes might just disagree with them.



Note that the larger context deals with the desensitization that has taken place in the minds of Christians. What was once considered profane speech, action, dress, etc. Is often commonplace. For example: the behaviour of young men and women prior to marriage. One hundred years ago one would never have seen unmarried men and women holding hands in a worship service. It would have been scandalous. Now, ho hum. In the years of my father's college days Elvis Presley's music was considered profane, both in lyrics and in his gyrations. Now, Christians for the most part would consider his music safe and clean. What has happened? Have we become more enlightened? I would posit that we have not. We have become more accustomed to the degradation of the society around us and our opinions have changed. (Opinions are not the same as standards.)

Now, to the comment about the the fans of Puritans and Covenanters: As I said previously, I am not casting stones at anyone in particular. Also, I am not commenting solely on what I have witnessed over time on the Puritan Board. I am also referring to what I have seen in the 'real' world as well. I know that what I wrote appears like a blanket statement. It was not meant to be. Rather, it was a comment based upon what I perceive as an ironic juxtaposition. To wit, the movies and music generated by the entertainment industries of the world are for the most part set in opposition to the principles set forth in Scripture. Yet, Christians will spend money, time, and energy taking in such entertainment. To what purpose? I can't answer that for all men. I find it highly ironic that Christians will defend their practice of finding something valuable in the midst of a movie that for the great part is junk from a Biblical point of view. Or, condone a movie with a powerful and perhaps needed movie that also contains scenes that are an affront to God's holiness. A couple of examples from things I have seen and since have repented of:

Schindler's List - Yes, the movie gives a powerful message. A message that needs to be spread. Yet, is the sexual nudity needed? Does the livid violence need to be shown in order to be communicated? No, it does not. Suggestion can be stronger than display. Much stronger. I could not recommend this movie any longer. It could have been much better.

24 - If you know me you know that I was a rabid fan of this show. However, I have had to repent for watching it. While it also contains some things that are insightful, presented in a fanciful fashion, it is nihilistic. It promotes a utilitarian view of mankind. In a very subtle way it introduced licentiousness, homosexuality, and situational ethics into the plot. That was needless. 

Nothing, and I mean nothing, shows up in a movie, television show, studio produced music, etc. without a purpose. If you have ever been involved in the production world you know exactly what I mean. It is there because it is known, or hoped, to move the audience to a desired response.

Would our Puritan and Covenanter heros have spent time on such media if it were available to them? We can only speculate, but I doubt it. Would the Apostle Paul? Would Jesus Christ?

I am no man's law. I am only me. I condemn no one about their choice in media. I just hope we do our choosing based upon sound Scriptural precepts.


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## Wayne (Dec 11, 2009)

Thanks, Pastor. [actually I rarely have trouble sleeping]

Increasingly I find that I have no stomach for anything with violence in it. If that is a sign of growth in grace, then praise God.

On a different tack, let me propose a thesis: that the involvement of children in sexually-tinged (understatement) shows like Two and a Half Men is being wittingly done by "Hollywood/Big Media" with the intent of breaking down societal barriers against pedophilia. 

I'd like to hear responses to that thesis.


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## Tim (Dec 11, 2009)

I have almost completely lost interest in popular music and TV. It's not something I tried to accomplish, it just 'happened'!


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## newcreature (Dec 11, 2009)

Such an interesting thread. 

I believe we have to use wisdom. There are many shows on the Disney Channel, rated "G", which I have on many occasions not allowed my daughter to watch. They are full of themes of sorcery and witchcraft. I, myself, do not feel convicted to watch such foolishness. I do not find it particularly entertaining or enticing, but because I have an impressionable child, I can not in good conscience allow her to be indoctrinated by the sinful agenda of the world that seeks to devour her. Wicca is the fastest growing religion in the world among teens. But what do we expect when they are practicing chants and spells from childhood?

On the other hand, I enjoy watching drama and violence. If any of you are familiar with the shows "Law and Order", "CSI", or "Maury Povich", these are my preferences when I am not watching the news. True, they may not be glorifying to God... but is God actually displeased with my enjoyment in them? Watching these shows has no effect on my behavior or beliefs, it is mere entertainment.

There are other things I will not watch or tolerate in my home, such as horror movies, particularly those with demonic characters and satanic rituals, like "Hellraiser". These type of movies make me feel like I am welcoming evil into my heart and mind, opening the doors of my home to the enemy and inviting him in. I can't even sleep after watching even small bits of such films. 

I agree with many who have expressed that Christian entertainment is largely a matter of conscience. I am inclined to say that it is wrong for me to partake in anything that makes me question my faith or my God. I think it is also wrong for me to expose my sister or brother to things that offend them, or to things that I would not willingly and comfortably be a part of.


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## JennyG (Dec 11, 2009)

Tim said:


> I have almost completely lost interest in popular music and TV. It's not something I tried to accomplish, it just 'happened'!


 Your eyes become clearer if you stop watching it, and after a while you wonder what was ever so great about it! But I think if you go on making a habit of sitting in front of mainline media, that disconnect is much less likely to happen (as for popular music, I'm happy that a strong lifelong involvement in classical music has always armed me against it)


> Nothing, and I mean nothing, shows up in a movie, television show, studio produced music, etc. without a purpose. If you have ever been involved in the production world you know exactly what I mean. It is there because it is known, or hoped, to move the audience to a desired response.


Lawrence is _so right_. Internet reviews of "Brokeback Mountain" shocked me, as so many spoke of its movingness and how they had been forced to reevaluate their moral responses - just as if it was life and truth, and not an artfully crafted piece of propaganda designed to achieve that very thing. Why is it that the young generation now is mostly open and receptive to the gay agenda, if not because the media work tirelessly to make them so?



> Would our Puritan and Covenanter heros have spent time on such media if it were available to them? We can only speculate, but I doubt it. Would the Apostle Paul? Would Jesus Christ?


you put your finger on it.....we only have to ask the question to know the answer



> I am no man's law. I am only me. I condemn no one about their choice in media. I just hope we do our choosing based upon sound Scriptural precepts.


Yes - but see the previous quote


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## SRoper (Dec 11, 2009)

Wayne said:


> Yvonne:
> 
> I wonder how they have managed to legally provide this service, or if it is actually a problem? Wasn't it just a few years ago that some other outfit tried this and was fought tooth and nail in the courts by Hollywood trying to preserve its vaunted "artistic expression"?



Wayne, you are probably thinking about a service a few years back that distributed edited movies without consent of the copyright holder. The Clearplay device takes standard DVDs and selectively omits scenes with objectionable content. It's really a sophisticated way of fast-forwarding through a scene. I believe this would be found to be fair use from my limited understanding of copyright law.


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## newcreature (Dec 11, 2009)

SRoper said:


> Wayne said:
> 
> 
> > Yvonne:
> ...



Is it a device that you purchase and connect to your TV or DVD player?


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## Wayne (Dec 11, 2009)

ClearPlay requires the purchase of one of their DVD players ($120) and their filters for the DVDs. The filters are available by membership, at $8/mo., but I'm unclear as to whether this is just for the "filters" or whether the filters are in effect digital downloads of the entire movie. 



> "The ClearPlay DVD player seamlessly skips and mutes content based on 12 categories that you can set." [probably works off of the tracks built into the DVD]
> 
> Even with filtering turned on, all movies are not appropriate for all audiences. ClearPlay provides you with additional information to help you decide if a movie is appropriate for your family.



On their site you can pull up details on each of their available movies, which could be helpful for some folks. But I find I just don't have an interest in any of that stuff. Makes it a lot easier!


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## lynnie (Dec 11, 2009)

"_The idea that we judge a movie merely on the basis of "objectionable content" might work if our only purpose in watching is entertainment. But when we watch something as art, it gets more complicated. A movie's message and purpose must be considered.

The movie "Schindler's List" had full nudity, profanity and extreme violence. It didn't have a Christian agenda. But it did have a message that cared about God's world and those he created.

The cartoon movie "Prince of Egypt" had no nudity, no swear words and no extreme violence. It was about a Bible story. But it took that story and warped it into a message that said "believe in yourself."

Now which of these movies should a Christian view as most obnoxious? _"

One time we were watching that movie Bethoven with the kids, the big slobbery dog one. After a while my husband said to me that had I noticed that this movie had no sex, no swearing, no bad violence, nothing occult, everything seems fine.......but the wife is intelligent and the husband is a jerk.

I've noticed that theme often since then in what is considered OK for kids stuff.....the female or the child has all the wisdom and the male or the grownup is essentially an idiot.


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## George Bailey (Dec 12, 2009)

*Clear Play*

We have Clear Play and love it...however, it doesn't take out all objectionable content (i.e. not oblique references, or "double entendres"). there are no "underlying message" filters, though!

In making decisions about movies, I bracket content into two categories:
1. What are we allowing ourselves to be exposed to? (objective, things seen and heard: sex, violence, profanity, etc.)
2. What are we being told? (subjective messages: what is the perspective/worldview/message that is being conveyed).

Clearplay helps with the first, but not the second. I find movies/entertainment that are acceptable on both counts.

BTW, one of my best friends is a Nazarine church member-their membership vows include not seeing any "R" movies...I like to kid him by asking if they make small talk by saying "So......not see any good movies lately?"


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## Tim (Dec 14, 2009)

lynnie said:


> I've noticed that theme often since then in what is considered OK for kids stuff.....the female or the child has all the wisdom and the male or the grownup is essentially an idiot.



So true. I am sure this has contributed to a low view of the role of a husband and father. Instead of respecting and honoring the (difficult) position of leadership that a man has in his family, a sitcom will degrade the leading male character. The wife is almost always the moral leader (not that wives shouldn't be moral).


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## kvanlaan (Dec 14, 2009)

We struggle with this too. I think the big one with us (along with the nudity) is the taking of the Lord's name in vain. I can self-righteously self-justify portrayals of violence and the like with relative ease, but the idea that I am paying someone to blaspheme the name of the Lord is incredibly perverse to me.


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## jandrusk (Dec 14, 2009)

You bring up something that has weighed on my mind for some time and I attended a conference by T. David Gordon and he brought up two points in regards to our entertainment culture:

1. The irrationality associated with the media. Most of what you watch even if it is sanitized is not rational. Take 'Wife Swap' for example, what is rational about swapping wives just so you can find out what you miss about your wife and what your doing wrong? 

2. Triviality - At best television and the like will at best do you no good and at worse pollute your soul and mind. So why waste your time on an exercise that has no essential value to you as a human being?

I believe even Christians have become to dependent upon "Instant Stimulation", which is probably why it's so hard for them to keep the Sabbath. To entertain the idea of praying, reading scripture, attending two worship services, and mediating on Christ is like you asked them to pull an axe that has been embedded into their skull. 

So I personally think christians should abandon all forms of media entertainment and use all of the time that would be created to grow in grace, edify their church and neighbors, and live for the glory of God. I think too many christians try to be Son of God and a friend of the world at the same time, which of course is impossible.


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## Andres (Dec 14, 2009)

jandrusk said:


> You bring up something that has weighed on my mind for some time and I attended a conference by T. David Gordon and he brought up two points in regards to our entertainment culture:
> 
> 1. The irrationality associated with the media. Most of what you watch even if it is sanitized is not rational. Take 'Wife Swap' for example, what is rational about swapping wives just so you can find out what you miss about your wife and what your doing wrong?
> 
> ...



Thank you for those 3 points. They are certainly something to consider. As for your statement that I bolded above, would this include internet? I am asking seriously because it seems that many people in this particular discussion take the position that tv/movies are bad, but internet is okay. What is the difference? Sure, we could argue, "well some internet is used for good and to edify us" but could we not use that argument also for tv/movies? I will confess that, for me personally, much more temptation comes via internet/computer than it does via tv.


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## TKarrer (Dec 14, 2009)

jandrusk said:


> You bring up something that has weighed on my mind for some time and I attended a conference by T. David Gordon and he brought up two points in regards to our entertainment culture:
> 
> 1. The irrationality associated with the media. Most of what you watch even if it is sanitized is not rational. Take 'Wife Swap' for example, what is rational about swapping wives just so you can find out what you miss about your wife and what your doing wrong?
> 
> ...



While I agree with you for the most part, I think, just as with the internet, there certainly are ways to use other forms of media entertainment for God's glory. One example is having a beer with some brothers in the Lord while watching "A Late Great Planet Church". This use of media can spark very godly and edifying discussion and understanding. There are several other movies that will do the same.

As far as TV goes; I personally will never own a tv. This conviction first settled within my mind during a year span of time when I lived at a former Pastor's house. I had always had a tv up to that point in my life. While I was there it was hard for a few weeks- Id think about wanting to relax in front of the tv and some shows I missed. But after a couple months I was liberated and oh so thankful to God. By liberated I mean I felt like a burden had been lifted from me. I no longer had the option of tv, so I ended up being more active in study, prayer, service, outreach, etc. I felt joyous knowing I no longer wasted the amount of time I used to.

Just recently, at my Moms house, my Mom was watching 18 and Counting- a pretty wholesome, pure show. So, seeing that it wasnt an offensive show, I began watching it. Within ten minutes a commercial for Victorias Secret came on, and I saw a woman- who isnt my wife- wearing close to a thong. My eyes beheld something I told them I would avoid at all costs. She paraded across the screen sensuously, and within 2 seconds I had seen enough to arouse the lusts within me. This is just one reason (of many) I hate television.

With that said though, along with the other comments Ive stated in this thread about the pollution found in 99.7% of tv shows (and commercials), I refuse to say all Christians must avoid having a tv period. Wrecthed tv can be edifying; Word Pictures is edifying. There are programs out there worth watching. As for myself, I will make no provisions for my flesh. Everytime Ive reached a place where I thought I was standing, I ended up falling. I dont care how common and popular tv is amongst Christians, anything that stands in the way of my walking in the steps of my Master, is an obstacle to my happiness and therefore not worth my taking the risk with.


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## jandrusk (Dec 15, 2009)

I should have qualified my point. There are some specific benefits for using the Internet media, such as Puritanboard and other mediums that specifically exist to edify the body of Christ and bring glory to God. That being said there is also a LOT more junk and garbage on the Internet than I think exists on T.V. and the movies. I think that as a Christian you need to be wise in your uses of these mediums. Sometimes the intention is good, but the temptation to gravitate towards the junk is too great for some Christians and in those cases the whole lump needs to be thrown out for the preservation of your soul. 

Our culture is going the route of becoming totally dependent upon technology and with that it will be next to impossible to live normally in the culture without being a hermit, but no matter what the state of the fairs is we must always, "Fear the Lord..." as outlined in Proverbs 1:7.


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## kvanlaan (Dec 19, 2009)

I've heard this comment made, and have a hard time arguing against it, concerning what we watch, read, and listen to:

Can you, in good conscience, after watching, get on your knees, close your eyes, and say: "Lord, thank you for that experience. I pray that you would guide and empower these people to produce more of the same. Amen."


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