# Pentecostal Systematics



## JM (May 9, 2018)

I'm interested in reading a systematic theology from the Pentecostal or charismatic perspective. Which systematic would you recommend? 

Yours in the Lord, 

jm


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## Dachaser (May 9, 2018)

JM said:


> I'm interested in reading a systematic theology from the Pentecostal or charismatic perspective. Which systematic would you recommend?
> 
> Yours in the Lord,
> 
> jm


https://www.christianbook.com/systematic-theology-revised-edition-stanley.
This I believe is the standared treatment, as the editor was on staff at the AOG seminary
https://www.amazon.com/Renewal-Theology-Systematic-Charismatic-Perspective/dp/0310209145
The book written by J.Rodman Williams
Also, from a moderate Charasmatic reformed viewpoint
The ST of Dr Wayne Grudem

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## JM (May 9, 2018)

I haven't read any Pentecostal ST so I'm looking forward to it. The first title you linked to is free for download on Hoopla if you use that library app. (It's free from your local library in many places.)


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## RamistThomist (May 9, 2018)

Renewal Theology by Williams is good. He is competent, knows church history and the languages. In other words, this isn't a holler revival.

He used to have some audio messages, but now they are only in .ram files.

Amos Yong hasn't written a systematics, but he has dealt with these issues from a Pentecostal perspective.

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## JM (May 9, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Renewal Theology by Williams is good. He is competent, knows church history and the languages. In other words, this isn't a holler revival.
> 
> He used to have some audio messages, but now they are only in .ram files.
> 
> Amos Yong hasn't written a systematics, but he has dealt with these issues from a Pentecostal perspective.



I've ordered the title by Yong using Inter Library Loan.


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## Steve Curtis (May 9, 2018)

Much of Rodman Williams' corpus is free here. I had the chance to know him a bit (as he attended an EPC church in Virginia... go figure). Very insightful and personable man. As a former Presbyterian pastor, he had some interesting thoughts on Pentacostalism vis-a-vis Reformed theology (though he comes down, of course, on the other side!)

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## JM (May 9, 2018)

Excellent. 

I've been attending a church that is predominately black and the worship boarders on Pentecostal. No one is pretending to make prophecies or healings but it's a lively affair. Preaching is solid as well.


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## Dachaser (May 9, 2018)

JM said:


> Excellent.
> 
> I've been attending a church that is predominately black and the worship boarders on Pentecostal. No one is pretending to make prophecies or healings but it's a lively affair. Preaching is solid as well.


If one is from a Reformed/ or a Calvinistic Baptist understanding though, the Theology of the Charismatic church is wrong in so many ways. They do place a premium on witnessing and living for the Lord, and do place a high esteem on the Bible, but there salvation is very free will based, and their views on the second act of grace tends to divide up the church into those who are first rate, and others second rate Christians.
The Aog is the best theology group amomg them, but many of the so called word of faith, modern day Apostles/Prophets, name it and claim it, have moved to be pretty much a heresy within Christendom, at ;east those teaching such doctrines.

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## Dachaser (May 9, 2018)

kainos01 said:


> Much of Rodman Williams' corpus is free here. I had the chance to know him a bit (as he attended an EPC church in Virginia... go figure). Very insightful and personable man. As a former Presbyterian pastor, he had some interesting thoughts on Pentacostalism vis-a-vis Reformed theology (though he comes down, of course, on the other side!)


He must have really switched, from being a Calvinist to an Armianian, and also from Gifts ceasing, to all going on now.


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## RamistThomist (May 9, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> He must have really switched, from being a Calvinist to an Armianian, and also from Gifts ceasing, to all going on now.



Is he an Arminian? Is there a necessary connection between the gifts' being operative now and Arminianism?


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## Dachaser (May 9, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Is he an Arminian? Is there a necessary connection between the gifts' being operative now and Arminianism?


I think that view of all gifts still operating is found much more among those neither Calvinist or reformed.


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## RamistThomist (May 9, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> I think that view of all gifts still operating is found much more among those neither Calvinist or reformed.



But what is the logical connection, if any, between the two?


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## Bill The Baptist (May 9, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> I think that view of all gifts still operating is found much more among those neither Calvinist or reformed.



Many of the so-called “new Calvinists” are charismatic, at least in some sense.

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## Steve Curtis (May 9, 2018)

Let alone the question of Reformed or Arminian - one can, apparently, even be a Pentecostal Mormon:
http://web.archive.org/web/20050212124038/www.sas.upenn.edu/~dbowie/restore/plds.html


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## Steve Curtis (May 9, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Is there a necessary connection between the gifts' being operative now and Arminianism?



There is arguably a distinction to be made between "Charismaticism" (i.e., continuationalism) and Pentecostalism proper. To be sure, as Bill notes, many of the new Calvinists are also open to Charismaticism. I am not familiar with any who would claim the label of _Pentecostal_. 

While he seems himself to blur the two, David Engelsma argues: "That Pentecostalism is Arminian through-and-through is the open, clear, unashamed testimony of the Pentecostals themselves," and goes on to quote some Pentecostal luminaries who admit such:
http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_91d.html


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## JM (May 9, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> If one is from a Reformed/ or a Calvinistic Baptist understanding though, the Theology of the Charismatic church is wrong in so many ways. They do place a premium on witnessing and living for the Lord, and do place a high esteem on the Bible, but there salvation is very free will based, and their views on the second act of grace tends to divide up the church into those who are first rate, and others second rate Christians.
> The Aog is the best theology group amomg them, but many of the so called word of faith, modern day Apostles/Prophets, name it and claim it, have moved to be pretty much a heresy within Christendom, at ;east those teaching such doctrines.



Goes without saying.


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## JM (May 9, 2018)

I posted this on my blog the other day.


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## bookslover (May 9, 2018)

kainos01 said:


> Let alone the question of Reformed or Arminian - one can, apparently, even be a Pentecostal Mormon:
> http://web.archive.org/web/20050212124038/www.sas.upenn.edu/~dbowie/restore/plds.html



Christian eccentricity matched with theological heresy!


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## Dachaser (May 10, 2018)

Bill The Baptist said:


> Many of the so-called “new Calvinists” are charismatic, at least in some sense.


Which to me is really odd, as the traditional Calvinist/Baptist/Reformed would be against that, but would seem that the Dr Carson/Grudem have made a large inroad into having Charisma now being accepted.


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## Dachaser (May 10, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> But what is the logical connection, if any, between the two?


Both groups have normally seen the sign gifts ceasing when the scriptures were completed.


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## Dachaser (May 10, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Is he an Arminian? Is there a necessary connection between the gifts' being operative now and Arminianism?


Yes, as pretty much all of the classic Pentecostal and Charismatic churches help to a free will salvation model.


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## Dachaser (May 10, 2018)

bookslover said:


> Christian eccentricity matched with theological heresy!


Wonder what tongue Joseph Smith got?


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## RamistThomist (May 10, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> Yes, as pretty much all of the classic Pentecostal and Charismatic churches help to a free will salvation model.



But what is the logical connection?


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## RamistThomist (May 10, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> Both groups have normally seen the sign gifts ceasing when the scriptures were completed.



Which groups? I asked what the logical connection between Arminianism and Pentecostalism was? Most Arminians are cessationists.


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## TylerRay (May 10, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Is he an Arminian? Is there a necessary connection between the gifts' being operative now and Arminianism?



I'd venture to surmise that the connection is more psychological than logical. Three possibilities occur to me:
1. Lack of assurance of salvation: if my salvation depends on me, then I cannot be sure of my success in attaining it. How can I be sure that my works are pure enough? How can I be sure that my faith is sincere enough? The extraordinary gifts serve as confirmatory signs.

2.They need some way of attributing strength and power to their weak god. Their god cannot overcome human nature, so they go to great lengths to show that he can overcome natural laws of causation. Hence, miracles, etc.

3.The connection lies in the man-centered foundation of Arminianism, and the way that supposed prophecies and tongues tend to exalt the man exercising the gift.

I am careful, however, to say that I don't know that these ideas are operative in any particular Pentecostal. However, they may lie behind some activity of some of them.


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## RamistThomist (May 10, 2018)

C


TylerRay said:


> I'd venture to surmise that the connection is more psychological than logical. Three possibilities occur to me:
> 1. Lack of assurance of salvation: if my salvation depends on me, then I cannot be sure of my success in attaining it. How can I be sure that my works are pure enough? How can I be sure that my faith is sincere enough? The extraordinary gifts serve as confirmatory signs.
> 
> 2.They need some way of attributing strength and power to their weak god. Their god cannot overcome human nature, so they go to great lengths to show that he can overcome natural laws of causation. Hence, miracles, etc.
> ...



Certainly in some cases. Psych-evals are kind of risky (but we all do it anyway). "Pentecostal" is a broad term covering 500 million people. It could mean anyone from Martin Lloyd-Jones to RT Kendall to Michael Brown to some witch-doctor in South America.


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## Apologist4Him (May 10, 2018)

Years ago I was floored when I learned Grudum and Piper are Calvinistic, Baptist, and Coninualists or cautiously optimistic as they might say. Never in my life did I think I would come across a Continualist Baptist! I was equally surprised to learn about the EPC. Although I came to be a cessationalist, coming from the other side, I can appreciate the evangelicalism of bringing charismatic believers to embrace the Doctrines of Grace, Calvinizing former Weslyian/Amrminans.

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## Dachaser (May 10, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Which groups? I asked what the logical connection between Arminianism and Pentecostalism was? Most Arminians are cessationists.


My point was that there was the vast majority who hold to either Pentecostal/Charismatic theologies were from the Non reformed/Calvinist position, as they seem to have a watered down understanding on both inspiration and revelation.


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## Dachaser (May 10, 2018)

TylerRay said:


> I'd venture to surmise that the connection is more psychological than logical. Three possibilities occur to me:
> 1. Lack of assurance of salvation: if my salvation depends on me, then I cannot be sure of my success in attaining it. How can I be sure that my works are pure enough? How can I be sure that my faith is sincere enough? The extraordinary gifts serve as confirmatory signs.
> 
> 2.They need some way of attributing strength and power to their weak god. Their god cannot overcome human nature, so they go to great lengths to show that he can overcome natural laws of causation. Hence, miracles, etc.
> ...


I also would add to that the doctrines of demons that some of their so called teachers are promoting, as many are falling to their bad theology.


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## Dachaser (May 10, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> C
> 
> 
> Certainly in some cases. Psych-evals are kind of risky (but we all do it anyway). "Pentecostal" is a broad term covering 500 million people. It could mean anyone from Martin Lloyd-Jones to RT Kendall to Michael Brown to some witch-doctor in South America.


I find it better to see there being 2 distinct groups within that broad umbrella, one being the classic Pentecostals such as the AOG, and the new Charasmatics. Though the AOG and similar churches tech wrong about the working of the Holy Spirit in salvation and gifts, not nearly as bad theology as those who have name it and claim it, divine healing for all, additional revelations etc.


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## Apologist4Him (May 10, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> If one is from a Reformed/ or a Calvinistic Baptist understanding though, the Theology of the Charismatic church is wrong in so many ways. They do place a premium on witnessing and living for the Lord, and do place a high esteem on the Bible, but there salvation is very free will based, and their views on the second act of grace tends to divide up the church into those who are first rate, and others second rate Christians.
> The Aog is the best theology group amomg them, but many of the so called word of faith, modern day Apostles/Prophets, name it and claim it, have moved to be pretty much a heresy within Christendom, at ;east those teaching such doctrines.



True and true. Growing up my parents took me to AoG and a couple of different Baptist Churches (most likely of the Arminan variety). They spent more time with the AoG Church, where I (8 yrs old) had the desire to be saved and did the whole praying the "sinner's prayer" and "accepting Christ as Lord and Savior" decision in front of the Church and Baptized in a swimming pool a couple of months later. Without going into more details, I held to the beliefs of AoG until the age of 28, I had always been one of those second rate Christians. AoG had a few "name it and claim it" types I think but it did not characterize them as a whole. I don't know if the AoG ever recovered fully from the damage done by the Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart scandals. But it definitely left a lasting bad taste in AoG. I could go on but, against all odds, the cards stacked against me, God had His way with me in converting me to Calvinism roughly 15 years ago now. Several years into being a Calvinist, unsure whether I aligned more with Calvinistic Baptists or Presbyterians, I finally settled into identifying as a Confessional Presbyterian.


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## ReformedChristian (May 10, 2018)

The nearest I ever came to anything to Pentecostal Systematic Theology is Wayne Grudem. Granted he is a Baptist with Calvinistic Theology, however he does hold to the Pentecostal view of the gifts in his chapter on the Holy Spirit. I was also a bit puzzled that in the preface he mentions John Wimber as one who influenced him.


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## Dachaser (May 11, 2018)

Apologist4Him said:


> True and true. Growing up my parents took me to AoG and a couple of different Baptist Churches (most likely of the Arminan variety). They spent more time with the AoG Church, where I (8 yrs old) had the desire to be saved and did the whole praying the "sinner's prayer" and "accepting Christ as Lord and Savior" decision in front of the Church and Baptized in a swimming pool a couple of months later. Without going into more details, I held to the beliefs of AoG until the age of 28, I had always been one of those second rate Christians. AoG had a few "name it and claim it" types I think but it did not characterize them as a whole. I don't know if the AoG ever recovered fully from the damage done by the Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart scandals. But it definitely left a lasting bad taste in AoG. I could go on but, against all odds, the cards stacked against me, God had His way with me in converting me to Calvinism roughly 15 years ago now. Several years into being a Calvinist, unsure whether I aligned more with Calvinistic Baptists or Presbyterians, I finally settled into identifying as a Confessional Presbyterian.


The Lord saved me while in College, and went off from them into the AOG, and was there for about 10 years, being taught in their school and becoming a teaching Elder in the local Assemblies. During that time, was starting to read a wide variety of theology, ranging from a Hodge, Berkhof, to a Dr Erickson/Grudem. The Lord convinced me though from the scriptures that free will salvation and how they view the Gifts and tongues not correct, so left to move to then a free will Baptist type, to where i am at now.
I respect still the AOG missionary outreach and zeal for Jesus, and thankful that they did not get to much into the really bad theology of the Word of faith, name it claim it, and little gods Charismatic groups.

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## Dachaser (May 11, 2018)

ReformedChristian said:


> The nearest I ever came to anything to Pentecostal Systematic Theology is Wayne Grudem. Granted he is a Baptist with Calvinistic Theology, however he does hold to the Pentecostal view of the gifts in his chapter on the Holy Spirit. I was also a bit puzzled that in the preface he mentions John Wimber as one who influenced him.


I have read his ST, and thought that it was very good except in the areas concerning the eternal subordination of the Son, and in how he handles the spiritual gifts. Other than those 2 areas, thought was a good Baptist/Reformed summary of the Faith.


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## ReformedChristian (May 11, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> The Lord saved me while in College, and went off from them into the AOG, and was there for about 10 years, being taught in their school and becoming a teaching Elder in the local Assemblies. During that time, was starting to read a wide variety of theology, ranging from a Hodge, Berkhof, to a Dr Erickson/Grudem. The Lord convinced me though from the scriptures that free will salvation and how they view the Gifts and tongues not correct, so left to move to then a free will Baptist type, to where i am at now.
> I respect still the AOG missionary outreach and zeal for Jesus, and thankful that they did not get to much into the really bad theology of the Word of faith, name it claim it, and little gods Charismatic groups.



I just read Millard Erickson's Christian Doctrine real good read. Not sure where he stands on Calvinism I felt he took a moderate view in some places.


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## Dachaser (May 11, 2018)

ReformedChristian said:


> I just read Millard Erickson's Christian Doctrine real good read. Not sure where he stands on Calvinism I felt he took a moderate view in some places.


That was the required ST in my school, and I think that he comes down on being a moderate Calvinist. He was not the best for original theology thoughts, but dies a really nice job in summarizing the various held positions on each main doctrine.


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