# Not Traditionally Trained For The Ministry- Help



## JOwen (Mar 6, 2008)

Brothers,

I'm doing some research on the subject of pastors who did not receive traditional training, yet were used powerfully in the pastorate. I have thus far:
Lloyd-Jones, Spurgeon, and William Jay. Are there others that you know about in your reading that were not trained by a seminary?

Thanks!


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## SolaGratia (Mar 6, 2008)

John Brown of Haddington, John Bunyan, Augustine


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## BobVigneault (Mar 6, 2008)

I always fashioned myself in the line of Howell Harris but he was never a pastor. He was a traveling preacher in the Welsh revival.


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## JOwen (Mar 6, 2008)

BobVigneault said:


> I always fashioned myself in the line of Howell Harris but he was never a pastor. He was a traveling preacher in the Welsh revival.



yes, but a good example of usefulness all the same. Thanks.


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## timmopussycat (Mar 6, 2008)

BobVigneault said:


> I always fashioned myself in the line of Howell Harris but he was never a pastor. He was a traveling preacher in the Welsh revival.




And one of my great heroes. Do you know the Lloyd-Jones paper "Howell Harris and Revival" in The Puritans: Their Origins and Successors?


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## Presbyterian Deacon (Mar 6, 2008)

JOwen said:


> Brothers,
> 
> I'm doing some research on the subject of pastors who did not receive traditional training, yet were used powerfully in the pastorate. I have thus far:
> Lloyd-Jones, Spurgeon, and William Jay. Are there others that you know about in your reading that were not trained by a seminary?
> ...



You can start with the Apostles. "unlearned and ignorant men." 
(Acts 4:13).

Was D.L. Moody formally trained? We would disagree with him of course in much of his theology, but there is no denying he was very much used by God in his time.


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## KMK (Mar 6, 2008)

Zwingli had a Masters of Arts. Does that count as formal ministerial training?


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## Pilgrim (Mar 6, 2008)

Presbyterian Deacon said:


> JOwen said:
> 
> 
> > Brothers,
> ...



I don't think Moody was formally trained and he wasn't formally ordained. Others prominent in history who I understand weren't formally trained include Finney, Scofield, Chafer, Ironside, etc. but I don't know if that's exactly what Jerrold had in mind!


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## Ivan (Mar 7, 2008)

Moody was not formally trained.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Mar 7, 2008)

Why should a man be allowed to teach others if he is not first willing to learn himself?


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## NaphtaliPress (Mar 7, 2008)

JOwen said:


> Brothers,
> 
> I'm doing some research on the subject of pastors who did not receive traditional training, yet were used powerfully in the pastorate. I have thus far:
> Lloyd-Jones, Spurgeon, and William Jay. Are there others that you know about in your reading that were not trained by a seminary?
> ...


Do you mean no academic training or just seminary? Samuel Miller studied under his father for the pastorate and Charles Nisbet at Dickinson College.


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## Pergamum (Mar 7, 2008)

Daniel Ritchie said:


> Why should a man be allowed to teach others if he is not first willing to learn himself?



I don't think a willingness to learn is the issue here. The issue is the question, "Learn from where?" 

Non-traditionally trained still means trained.



The Third World has many, many examples of locals being raised up by God to take the Gospel to their neighbors and planting churches within their own homes.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Mar 7, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> > Why should a man be allowed to teach others if he is not first willing to learn himself?
> ...



How are they trained if they are not trained by other ministers of the word?


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## JohnOwen007 (Mar 7, 2008)

Actually, what's *really *surprising is that Calvin never formally studied theology!

We must remember in this discussion that people like Lloyd-Jones, Spurgeon, and Calvin were *freakishly *intelligent. It's difficult to emulate such giants.

Blessings.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Mar 7, 2008)

JohnOwen007 said:


> Actually, what's *really *surprising is that Calvin never formally studied theology!
> 
> We must remember in this discussion that people like Lloyd-Jones, Spurgeon, and Calvin were *freakishly *intelligent. It's difficult to emulate such giants.
> 
> Blessings.



And didn't they all have a part in setting up colleges for ministers? Clearly their experience was not normative.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Mar 7, 2008)

My first Pastor Joe Gwynn whom I consider to be a true Modern day Puritan Pastor. 

I would like to ask you if the Spurgeon college grads would be considered as not having been formally trained. Al Martin at Trinity doesn't hand out the sheep skins either. 

BTW, I am not fully condoning the practice but do recognize that some men are called to Pastor that have not been formally trained.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Mar 7, 2008)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> My first Pastor Joe Gwynn whom I consider to be a true Modern day Puritan Pastor.
> 
> I would like to ask you if the Spurgeon college grads would be considered as not having been formally trained. Al Martin at Trinity doesn't hand out the sheep skins either.
> 
> BTW, I am not fully condoning the practice but do recognize that some men are called to Pastor that have not been formally trained.



Spurgeon and Al Martin's men have been trained by ministers of the word - I would not argue that you need a Seminary degree. However, men in the pastorate who have not been trained should certainly need to be the exception rather than the rule. in my opinion a man would have to have some confidence in his own ability to think he could step into the pastorate without a period of intense formal training.


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## BobVigneault (Mar 7, 2008)

I can help you get your Bible degree in SEVEN DAYS!

Brain surgeon might take a month but hey, it's still faster.


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## Pergamum (Mar 7, 2008)

Daniel Ritchie said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
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> > Daniel Ritchie said:
> ...





Most were trained by missionaries or by the preachers that were trained by missionaries.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Mar 7, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
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> > Pergamum said:
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So they were trained then?


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## Stephen (Mar 7, 2008)

The lack of training for a minister is the exception and not the rule. There is no reason a minister should not be trained. I had been a minister for six years in an Arminian group, before I came into the Reformed faith. I had an undergraduate degree in the New Testament, but no seminary training. I went back to school and got my MDiv at Knox Seminary. I am glad I did. Presbyteries are starting to water down the standards and this is a shame. Any man, if he has a calling, can certainly go back and get some training. The average age of seminarians today is 35. I knew men at Knox who were in pastorates and worked hard to achieve an MDiv and they were not young men.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Mar 7, 2008)

Stephen said:


> The lack of training for a minister is the exception and not the rule. There is no reason a minister should not be trained. I had been a minister for six years in an armianian group, before I came into the reformed faith. I had an undergraduate degree in the New Testament, but no seminary. I went back to school and got my MDiv at Knox Seminary. I am glad I did. Presbyteries are starting to water down the standards and this is a shame. Any man, if he has a calling, can certainly go back and get some training. The average age of seminarians today is 35. I knew guys who were in pastorates that went to Knox and got am MDiv. and they were not young men.



in my opinion it would seem that it is prudent that a man not go into the ministry these days until he is his 30s (though that would not rule out starting training in your late 20s); I say this not as an absolute rule, but as a matter of expedience and prudence.


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## timmopussycat (Mar 7, 2008)

Daniel Ritchie said:


> in my opinion it would seem that it is prudent that a man not go into the ministry these days until he is his 30s (though that would not rule out starting training in your late 20s); I say this not as an absolute rule, but as a matter of expedience and prudence.



I second that, for a number of reasons. 

One is that the man will have a way to make his living apart from the ministry of the word. Paul knew he could support himself apart from being congregationally supported and the man who can do that will not be tempted to fear his congregation as much as the one who has nothing to fall back on.


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## Stephen (Mar 7, 2008)

Daniel Ritchie said:


> Stephen said:
> 
> 
> > The lack of training for a minister is the exception and not the rule. There is no reason a minister should not be trained. I had been a minister for six years in an armianian group, before I came into the reformed faith. I had an undergraduate degree in the New Testament, but no seminary. I went back to school and got my MDiv at Knox Seminary. I am glad I did. Presbyteries are starting to water down the standards and this is a shame. Any man, if he has a calling, can certainly go back and get some training. The average age of seminarians today is 35. I knew guys who were in pastorates that went to Knox and got am MDiv. and they were not young men.
> ...



I have seen young men who went into seminary without any life experience and they were puffed up with pride and thought they knew everything. These are the kind of men who would create disasters in a congregation. I am not saying that all young men are like this, for I have seen many godly young men, but many of the things you experience in the ministry require some life experience and level of maturity.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Mar 7, 2008)

Stephen said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
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> > Stephen said:
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I seen many examples of this myself, while it is not an absolute rule, it would seem that most young men in the Reformed world think that they know everything, when in fact they know nothing.


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## Stephen (Mar 7, 2008)

I agree that there may need to be a move back to the old Puritan model of training, like Randy was alluding to earlier. I had the experience of good ministers who trained me before seminary, so I have seen the value of sitting under a godly teacher. In many Presbyterian denominations men are not allowed to enroll in seminary without a recommendation from their session and the Presbytery, and an internship. I have a real desire in my ministry to take a man, who has gifts, and train him in ministry, but he would still be required to receive formal training. Unfortunetly, I do not have anyone like that in my present ministry.


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## Pergamum (Mar 7, 2008)

Daniel Ritchie said:


> Pergamum said:
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> > Daniel Ritchie said:
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Yes, they were trained but they were not "traditionally trained" as per the OP.


Although, I guess training by personal mentorship by a preacher might be more "traditional" than a seminary perhaps....just a thought.


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## Kevin (Mar 7, 2008)

Stephen said:


> I agree that there may need to be a move back to the old Puritan model of training, like Randy was alluding to earlier. I had the experience of good ministers who trained me before seminary, so I have seen the value of sitting under a godly teacher. In many Presbyterian denominations men are not allowed to enroll in seminary without a recommendation from their session and the Presbytery, and an internship. I have a real desire in my ministry to take a man, who has gifts, and train him in ministry, but he would still be required to receive formal training. Unfortunetly, I do not have anyone like that in my present ministry.



Stephen, you should call Jack W. I bet he has someone he could pair you up with!


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## Reformed Covenanter (Mar 7, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
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> 
> > Pergamum said:
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Being trained by other ministers is morally equivalent to being trained at a Seminary, only a Seminary has better facilities.


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## JohnOwen007 (Mar 9, 2008)

BobVigneault said:


> Brain surgeon might take a month but hey, it's still faster.



Brain Surgeon or Charles Spurgeon?


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## danmpem (Mar 9, 2008)

Just to throw in a contemporary, C.J. Mahaney. He has somewhat of an infamous statement about his education, or lack thereof.


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## JonathanHunt (Mar 9, 2008)

Another contemporary is the current Pastor of the Metropolitan Tabernacle, Dr Peter Masters.

Daniel Ritchie - before you even touch the keyboard.. no derogatory comments.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Mar 10, 2008)

JonathanHunt said:


> Another contemporary is the current Pastor of the Metropolitan Tabernacle, Dr Peter Masters.
> 
> Daniel Ritchie - before you even touch the keyboard.. no derogatory comments.





However, the fact Dr. Masters trains men for the ministry himself (I presume he received some training, though perhaps not a college course), shows us that it is not the norm.


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## Puritan Sailor (Mar 10, 2008)

AW Tozer and John Bunyan didn't have formal training.


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## Stephen (Mar 10, 2008)

Kevin said:


> Stephen said:
> 
> 
> > I agree that there may need to be a move back to the old Puritan model of training, like Randy was alluding to earlier. I had the experience of good ministers who trained me before seminary, so I have seen the value of sitting under a godly teacher. In many Presbyterian denominations men are not allowed to enroll in seminary without a recommendation from their session and the Presbytery, and an internship. I have a real desire in my ministry to take a man, who has gifts, and train him in ministry, but he would still be required to receive formal training. Unfortunetly, I do not have anyone like that in my present ministry.
> ...




Thanks, Kevin. I had never even thought about that, but it would be a great opportunity.


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## KMK (Mar 11, 2008)

Puritan Sailor said:


> AW Tozer and John Bunyan didn't have formal training.



In the most recent issue of Reformed Baptist Theological Review, James Renihan argues that Bunyon's protege Nehemiah Coxe also did not have a seminary degree. There have been some historians who believed that he did but in fact there is no evidence to support this. Coxe did have, however, Doctorate in Medicine!


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## Davidius (Mar 11, 2008)

From the thread title I thought you were saying that you were untrained for ministry and needed help with a problem.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Mar 11, 2008)

I personally do not believe a young person should come out of Seminary and go into the Pastorate without having worked under the care of a Pastor and Elders.

Full time ministry is hard. In fact the situation a Pastor occupies demands much practised wisdom and people skills that should be developed before one even steps into the position. People are wicked. And a niave person is not fit for dealing with wicked people. Even saved people will give you a solid run for the hills. And church people can be very good at manipulating things even better than the wicked because they know the best of both worlds. 

Formal training is necessary but so is a working care under a Pastor and Elders. A candidate for the ministry should be proven first. Seminary (though it is hard) is not a proving ground.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Mar 11, 2008)

> Even saved people will give you a solid run for the hills. And church people can be very good at manipulating things even better than the wicked because they know the best of both worlds.



Too true.


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## Stephen (Mar 11, 2008)

Daniel Ritchie said:


> > Even saved people will give you a solid run for the hills. And church people can be very good at manipulating things even better than the wicked because they know the best of both worlds.
> 
> 
> 
> Too true.




Ok, you and Randy must know some of the same people I have dealt with in ministry. Have they visited your congregations?


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## Ivan (Mar 11, 2008)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> I personally do not believe a young person should come out of Seminary and go into the Pastorate without having worked under the care of a Pastor and Elders.
> 
> Full time ministry is hard. In fact the situation a Pastor occupies demands much practised wisdom and people skills that should be developed before one even steps into the position. People are wicked. And a niave person is not fit for dealing with wicked people. Even saved people will give you a solid run for the hills. And church people can be very good at manipulating things even better than the wicked because they know the best of both worlds.
> 
> Formal training is necessary but so is a working care under a Pastor and Elders. A candidate for the ministry should be proven first. Seminary (though it is hard) is not a proving ground.



I'm in 100% agreement. I had a great pastor who taught me a great deal before I went to seminary. I'm indebted to the godly gentleman. Frankly, if I had to choose between seminary and a godly and intelligent pastor, I'd choose the pastor.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Mar 12, 2008)

Stephen said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> > > Even saved people will give you a solid run for the hills. And church people can be very good at manipulating things even better than the wicked because they know the best of both worlds.
> ...



Unfortunately I have met the enemy. And it is indwelling sin within me.


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