# The Case For Christian Nationalism by Stephen Wolfe



## Mac (Nov 6, 2022)

Can someone more educated than me comment on this new release from Canon Press? I have my concerns with Canon Press/DW but I’m not sure that I have a full-orbed perspective on what this book is about. It is popping up among our members.


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## Polanus1561 (Nov 6, 2022)

Why is this thread under sub forum Federal Vision?


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## B.L. (Nov 6, 2022)

Mac said:


> Can someone more educated than me comment on this new release from Canon Press? I have my concerns with Canon Press/DW but I’m not sure that I have a full-orbed perspective on what this book is about. It is popping up among our members



Perhaps listen to Mr. Wolfe himself -

Reactions: Like 3


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## Mac (Nov 6, 2022)

Polanus1561 said:


> Why is this thread under sub forum Federal Vision?


Maybe it shouldn’t be. I’m a rookie. I watched an interview w/ DW and Stephen Wolfe. Had me concerned. Also saw some stuff on social media from Wolfe ab women not being franchised to vote? Probably should’ve waited to read the book prior to posting.


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## Mac (Nov 6, 2022)

Here’s the social media stuff I referred to


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## Polanus1561 (Nov 6, 2022)

mods just closed the other DW thread to clean up… and now another (in some way related) one pops up on a Lord's Day morning…


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## NaphtaliPress (Nov 6, 2022)

There are some comments about the book in the thread John referenced, which is going to remain closed. Closing this thread for the Lord's Day.

Reactions: Like 1


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## NaphtaliPress (Nov 18, 2022)

This is a brutal review of the book that should raise alarms if no alarm bells were going off already. https://brianmattson.substack.com/p/a-childrens-crusade?

Reactions: Like 7


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## Tychicus (Nov 18, 2022)

NaphtaliPress said:


> This is a brutal review of the book that should raise alarms if no alarm bells were going off already. https://brianmattson.substack.com/p/a-childrens-crusade?


I saw some good responses. A daring one was that Bavinck strays away from the Reformed scholastics. 

This thread was good:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1592896742919639040
And no, I'm not a Christian Nationalist.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 18, 2022)

Tychicus said:


> I saw some good responses. A daring one was that Bavinck strays away from the Reformed scholastics.
> 
> This thread was good:
> 
> ...



There was a minority of Reformed scholastics that used the language of superadded gifts. They were not the dominant position. Bavinck is clearly in line with Turretin on this.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## NaphtaliPress (Nov 18, 2022)

An interesting post commenting on Mattson and responses that have come from someone in the FV camp. https://www.pastor.trinity-pres.net...ith-christian-nationalism-5-mattson-weighs-in


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## Tychicus (Nov 18, 2022)

RamistThomist said:


> There was a minority of Reformed scholastics that used the language of superadded gifts. They were not the dominant position. Bavinck is clearly in line with Turretin on this.


That's the problem right? One writes an over-the-top review calling the author a Papist, when the same charge could be thrown against Vermigli. I doubt if having Vermigli on your side counts as minority.

I'm not disputing necessarily whether one is in the tradition or not. There's diversity. But you don't go around calling someone a Papist because he quotes Thomas and Suarez, and the reformed Scholastics who utilized them.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 18, 2022)

Tychicus said:


> That's the problem right? One writes an over-the-top review calling the author a Papist, when the same charge could be thrown against Vermigli. I doubt if having Vermigli on your side counts as minority.
> 
> I'm not disputing necessarily whether one is in the tradition or not. There's diversity. But you don't go around calling someone a Papist because he quotes Thomas and Suarez, and the reformed Scholastics who utilized them.



If I implied any Roman Catholicism on his part, I take that back. I don't think he knows enough about the system to be a papist. I do think he is wrong on the donum superadditum. Yes, earlier Reformers like Vermigli used it, but as Reformed thought crystallized it became apparent that wasn't the best way to speak of it. Donum concreatum is much better.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 18, 2022)

NaphtaliPress said:


> An interesting post commenting on Mattson and responses that have come from someone in the FV camp. https://www.pastor.trinity-pres.net...ith-christian-nationalism-5-mattson-weighs-in



I've been following Lusk's comments on Facebook. They are quite interesting and they represent a rift in the CREC world.


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## Tychicus (Nov 18, 2022)

RamistThomist said:


> If I implied any Roman Catholicism on his part, I take that back. I don't think he knows enough about the system to be a papist. I do think he is wrong on the donum superadditum. Yes, earlier Reformers like Vermigli used it, but as Reformed thought crystallized it became apparent that wasn't the best way to speak of it. Donum concreatum is much better.


Oh, no you didn't, I was referring to the reviewer. I'm still waiting for a solid critique that doesn't go "mUh, sChoLaStiCism tHomAs", or the other route of guilt-by-association.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 18, 2022)

Tychicus said:


> Oh, no you didn't, I was referring to the reviewer. I'm still waiting for a solid critique that doesn't go "mUh, sChoLaStiCism tHomAs", or the other route of guilt-by-association.



The dualism critique has some merit. I also think Mattson scored huge points by bringing up Oliver O'Donovan. O'Donovan's works on political theology are a textbook model on how to work through problematic issues in light of Scripture. There is a reason O'Donovan is the gold-standard on political theology.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Tychicus (Nov 18, 2022)

RamistThomist said:


> The dualism critique has some merit.


The "Christian Platonists" also have to face this challenge.

I have an inkling that Wolfe's work might be of the pre-modern persuasion.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 18, 2022)

Tychicus said:


> The "Christian Platonists" also have to face this challenge.


Agreed. Torrance, James Clerk Maxwell, and Einstein formally killed off any kind of viable Platonism.

And here is an analytical outline of Oliver O'Donovan. Wolfe punted on Scripture. O'Donovan did not. You can tell the difference.








Outline of O’Donovan’s Desire of the Nations


With the current discussion of Christian nationalism, and the apparent lack of biblical exegesis in Stephen Wolfe’s book, it seemed appropriate to provide a clear model of real political theo…




tentsofshem.wordpress.com

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## Tychicus (Nov 18, 2022)

RamistThomist said:


> Wolfe punted on Scripture. O'Donovan did not. You can tell the difference.


Yeah, I saw that criticism. But I'm not sure if that was what he was aiming at. That probably explains the theonomists (Sandlin etc) throwing out all sorts of mind-numbing takes.

I was surprised to see Yoram Hazony's endorsement though, I thought a Burkean like him would find it too idealistic and abstract (from the little I've gathered from Wolfe's book).


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## Eyedoc84 (Nov 18, 2022)

NaphtaliPress said:


> This is a brutal review of the book that should raise alarms if no alarm bells were going off already. https://brianmattson.substack.com/p/a-childrens-crusade?


Brutal indeed.

This little line struck me, and I had to chuckle a little as I thought, "Well, it is published by Canon."



> So it is sleight of hand for Wolfe to claim...

Reactions: Like 1


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## arapahoepark (Nov 18, 2022)

RamistThomist said:


> I've been following Lusk's comments on Facebook. They are quite interesting and they represent a rift in the CREC world.


How so?


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## RamistThomist (Nov 19, 2022)

arapahoepark said:


> How so?


Wilson is promoting it and the Theopolis types(thou leithart is pca) are attacking it. Theopolis is winning


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## NaphtaliPress (Nov 19, 2022)

RamistThomist said:


> Wilson is promoting it and the Theopolis types(thou leithart is pca) are attacking it. Theopolis is winning


I thought Leithart left the PCA?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Tychicus (Nov 19, 2022)

@RamistThomist , do you intend to read the book and write a review? I have a feeling you might have criticisms that I might resonate with, especially your love for Scruton, classical conservatism, and Scholasticism as well.

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## Notthemama1984 (Nov 19, 2022)

I haven't read the book and don't have an opinion either way, but I wanted to let people know that it is free on kindle unlimited for those that would like to read and interact with. I also did not read every response in this thread so I apologize if someone already mentioned this.


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## Phil D. (Nov 19, 2022)

NaphtaliPress said:


> I thought Leithart left the PCA?


He did.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 19, 2022)

Tychicus said:


> @RamistThomist , do you intend to read the book and write a review? I have a feeling you might have criticisms that I might resonate with, especially your love for Scruton, classical conservatism, and Scholasticism as well.



Eventually. It's not important right now. I support limited nationalism against the likes of Bill Gates and George Soros. Christian nationalism is another issue and one that is quite difficult to reconcile with the pilgrim nature of the church in the last days.

Also, I was reading nationalist literature, especially the historical sources like Herder, a decade before any of these guys heard of it.

But to my main problem:

Main problem with Cn Nationalism: (this isn't refutation). What Paul called the "mystery of the ages," (Eph. 3), Jews and other ethnicities eating together, is utterly irrelevant on the CN reading. They don't reject it, to be sure, but it isn't important.

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## RamistThomist (Nov 19, 2022)

NaphtaliPress said:


> I thought Leithart left the PCA?



I did not know that. I thought when he moved to Alabama he was PCA. My mistake.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Nov 19, 2022)

He went to the CREC when the PCA Presbytery wouldn't allow him to do something. That was a long time ago that he went CREC. I remember that. Wow, I just found out he is only a few years older than me. The weight he was pulling and the influence he was wielding seemed to make me think that he was older. He is a dipstick like me. LOL

Reactions: Funny 1


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## NaphtaliPress (Nov 19, 2022)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> He went to the CREC when the PCA Presbytery wouldn't allow him to do something. That was a long time ago that he went CREC. I remember that. Wow, I just found out he is only a few years older than me. The weight he was pulling and the influence he was wielding seemed to make me think that he was older. He is a dipstick like me. LOL


A friend (Kevin Reed of later Presbyterian Heritage Pub. fame) who largely was responsible for getting me on a reformed presbyterian tract and I went to a theonomist conference at Joe Moorecraft's congregation in Ga. in 1983 or 84 (I forget the actual subject but Rushdooney and Morton Smith were there; it was fairly soon after the Korean airline was shot down but Russia with Rep McDonald on board, a friend of many at the church). We stayed one night in Peter Leithart's parents' home and my friend warned them that it would be no good end or words to that effect, Leithart's following Jim Jordan.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## DanSSwing (Nov 19, 2022)

Polanus1561 said:


> mods just closed the other DW thread to clean up… and now another (in some way related) one pops up on a Lord's Day morning…


Is there any better time to discuss theology than on the Lord's Day? Seems to me that's the very best time.


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## Polanus1561 (Nov 20, 2022)

DanSSwing said:


> Is there any better time to discuss theology than on the Lord's Day? Seems to me that's the very best time.


I said that in reference to the work of the mods on the LD


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