# WTS or WSC?



## Jackie Kaulitz (Mar 16, 2013)

Dear brothers and sisters,

I am applying to go to Seminary this year and need some help in choosing between the two Westminsters. I am looking at getting a Masters in Theology: MDiv/MAR at WTS or MA-Theology at WSC. I want to be an author / teacher and to get a super solid foundation in Historical Reformed Theology. I want to pick the least liberal and the most solid school, but I'm not familiar with most of the instructors or their theology or the direction of the schools.

Which systematic theology instructor would you recommend?
David Garner and Lane Tipton OR Michael Horton?

I've heard that WSCAL is "Kline-ian". What does that mean and how would it influence my education? 
I've heard of controversy at WTS. Is that all over with and past? I've heard things about Lillback. Would that have any influence or is this all old stuff that's past and should stay in the past?

Which school? Could you please list out some benefits? 

I noticed many of the classes at WTS have me reading the major guys: Hodge, Bavinck, Vos, Calvin etc. WSC classes seem to have more modern-day authors (summarizing?) on the reading list. Any thoughts?

There are a couple threads on this but for some reason I can't seem to view them.

Thank you!


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## PuritanCovenanter (Mar 16, 2013)

Jackie,


With your aspirations and lively soul you would benefit from any School you would attend most likely. One of the factors you will need to figure out is the location that will best suit your time at school. The three schools you have named have some great teachers. It might matter if you want to relocate somewhere new or not. 


Westminster California has some great teachers and the ones I have communicated with are very approachable and willing to go beyond in helping others grow in Christ. Westminster Philadelphia has some great teachers also. I love listening to Lane Tipton, Richard Gaffin, E. Calvin Biesner, Carl Trueman, etc. You can listen to most of these gentlemen from these schools on a podcast most of them participate on from time to time at www.ReformedForum.org . 


You might also want to consider Mid America Theological Seminary in Dyer, Indiana where one of the members of the Puritanboard teaches, Dr. Alan Strange. He has such a wonderful Pastoral heart and he is very easy to listen to and follow. I had the privilege of sitting in on some of his lectures up in Demotte, Indiana at Immanuel URCNA. He is one awesome historian. Me and a buddy of mine are going up next week to visit Danny Hyde at Mid America to sit in on one of his classes on worshp. Dr. Cornel P. Venema is the President there and I have learned a lot from his books and teaching. He just did a conference at our Church. You can contact Dr. Strange on the board to ask him questions. 


Speaking of Danny Hyde, who is a Pastor out your way and will be here at Mid America next week, I believe he received his Doctorates from Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary. Dr. Joel Beeke is the President there and they teach a wonderful mixture of Acedemic and Pastoral care. A friend of mine is Dr. Beeke's assistant. They also have the Heritage Reformation Bookstore and Publishing wing. They publish some of the most awesome works. They are bringing a lot of the Westminster Divine's writings back into print. Dr. Beeke will be here next weekend to do a conference on Spiritual Warfare. 


You might also want to check into Greenville Presbyterian Seminary in South Carolina were Joseph Pipa jr. is the President. He is a wonderful man who is very approachable. He did our Reformation Indy Conference here last year. This years speaker is Joel Beeke. One of our PB members and a friend of mine went to Greenville Presbyterian Seminary in Greenville, South Carolina. Nick Napier had all good things to say about that school and how approachable Dr. Pipa was. I experienced the same thing from Dr. Pipa when I was in need of some counsel concerning Covenant Theology. He helped this simple laymen out by correspondence so you can imagine how thrilling it was for me to meet him at last years Reformation Indy | To explain the Faith from the whole scriptures… conference. William F. Hill Jr. who use to participate on the PB some is going there now. 


Last but not least is my denominational Seminary. Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary is a great place and of course I am prejudiced toward it because I know so many people who have gone to the College (Geneva) and to the Seminary. It is rock solid. I am taking a course on Worship by Barry York who will be replacing Dr. Prutow. The teaching is awesome and always applicaple. 


All these schools have marvelous things about them. Do I have my preferences? Yes I do but that is because of doctrinal differences. If I had my choice right now I would be struggling between Mid America, PRTS, and Greenville. I feel familiar enough with my denomination that It would take back seat. A few of the guys that are in my denomination have gone to Puritan Reformed and came out as excellent men of God. 


I will go before the throne of grace on your behalf for wisdom. May you find the best one suited for your gifts to grow and become wonderfully effectual.


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## Jack K (Mar 16, 2013)

Neither WTS nor WSC could rightly be called "liberal." You're safe at either one in that regard, precisely because they _do_ squabble over theological error if it crops up.


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## Edward (Mar 16, 2013)

Jackie Kaulitz said:


> Which systematic theology instructor would you recommend?



Sinclair Ferguson. 

That aside, I'd probably opt for WTS over WSC of the two that you mentioned. If you want to be a writer to a broader market, you certainly should only consider accredited schools.


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## jawyman (Mar 16, 2013)

"Speaking of Danny Hyde, who is a Pastor out your way and will be here at Mid America next week, I believe he received his Doctorates from Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary. Dr. Joel Beeke is the President there and they teach a wonderful mixture of Acedemic and Pastoral care. A friend of mine is Dr. Beeke's assistant. They also have the Heritage Reformation Bookstore and Publishing wing. They publish some of the most awesome works. They are bringing a lot of the Westminster Divine's writings back into print. Dr. Beeke will be here next weekend to do a conference on Spiritual Warfare."

Danny is not a Ph.D., and PRTS does not offer Ph.Ds (yet).


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## R. Scott Clark (Mar 16, 2013)

Hi Jackie,


You're welcome to contact me at the Heidelblog.


A few thoughts: 


It's true that Meredith Kline taught at WSC and it's true that he has been influential but it's not accurate to say that we're a Klinean seminary. Bob Strimple was a founding faculty member and our first president and he was one of John Murray's successors at WTS. Bob Godfrey was my prof and he is our president now and a founding faculty member of WSC. Derke Bergmsa, an early faculty member (who still teaches for us!) learned his biblical theology via Dutch sources in the Netherlands and elsewhere. Dennis Johnson learned his theology at WTS and did his PhD on the book of Hebrews and never studied with MGK. So, we have a variety of influences. Our faculty have their PhDs/DPhil degrees and post-doctoral work (e.g., Yale, Harvard, Oxford, Loyola, U of California, Stanford, Catholic U, Fuller, TEDS, Coventry, Wycliffe Hall--Westminster Seminary California - Academics - Faculty:: Westminster Seminary California) from a variety of schools across the globe and the USA. 


We are first of all a biblical seminary. We teach students to read God's inerrent Word in the original languages and we ground our biblical and systematic theology in God's Word. We are a confessional seminary founded primarily to train men for pastoral ministry in NAPARC churches, though about 30% of our students are MA candidates preparing to fulfill other vocations (missions, academic, education etc). Our vocabulary and way of teaching the Reformed understanding of Scripture is shaped much more by what the Reformed/Presbyterian churches confess in the Westminster Standards and in the Three Forms of Unity (Belgic, Heidelberg, Dort) than by what any single theologian, whether Calvin or Vos, has written. 


We are committed to reading and teaching Scripture with the church. We're not pursuing an idiosyncratic agenda. As a matter of history, we're more than 30 years old and we're beginning to hire our third generation faculty, who may not have even known Meredith. Further, not all of our faculty studied with him. He is not a test of orthodoxy. E.g., my understanding of covenant theology is shaped much more by classic 16th and 17th-century writers than by MGK. His great value was to push us back to Van Til (people forget that he was a devoted Van Tillian) Geerhardus Vos, and to the older understanding of the covenant of works, which had fallen into disuse during the middle 20th century, and to help us think through some of the questions associated with the Mosaic covenant/"Old Covenant." He was also a staunch defender of the gospel of justification by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone against the Shepherdite movement that later morphed into the self-described Federal Vision movement. 


In your classes at WSC you will certainly be reading Calvin, Hodge, Bavinck, Van Til, and Vos. If you take my covenant theology class you will read the classic Reformed covenant theologians (e.g., Bullinger, Ursinus, Olevianus, Rollock, Wollebius, Cocceius, and Witsius), including some that are only now being translated into English for the first time. A Brief History of Covenant Theology | R. Scott Clark


We certainly ground our students in the great Reformed writers and we have them reading patristic, medieval, Reformation, and post-Reformation authors as well (e.g., in the Ancient Church and Medieval-Reformation, and Modern Age church history courses). I would guess that, proportionally, the reading is weighted toward older authors. One of our faculty, Dr Horton, has written a significant modern system of theology that has been well received and is being widely used already and our students certainly read that just as Louis Berkhof's students read his Reformed Dogmatics when they were first published in 1932 (later re-named as Systematic Theology for marketing purposes). 


The course syllabi (reading lists, assignments) for our courses are not all online but you can get a sense of what happens by talking to Mark MacVey, our admissions director. My current syllabi are online at Westminster Seminary California 


You can also get to know the faculty via the _Office Hours_ podcast: http://wscal.edu/officehours


Hope this helps.


rsc


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## mjmacvey (Mar 16, 2013)

Jackie,

It looks like Dr. Clark beat me here, but I will add a few things. It is probably best to let others answer more fully here, but I would encourage you to contact me if I can be of help. I do believe both WTS and WSC have a lot to offer in terms of the academic rigor and preparation for your specific interests. 

One advantage you would have at WSC is that we are a bit smaller and give students better opportunities to get to know our faculty on a personal level. They are all ordained ministers/elders and really do take their responsibility to shepherd students seriously. This is helpful not only as you pursue your studies but could also be of great value as you pursue your vocation after graduation. 

You will read Kline at both Westminsters (along with Vos, Ridderbos, etc.). We need to be careful not to pigeon-hole institutions, such as "this is the X school, this is the Y school." Though we are untied around the confessions, each faculty member has his own interests and points of emphasis. There is no one position on the faculty relative to issues such as creation, republication, two kingdoms, etc. 

I should also add that David VanDrunen and J.V. Fesko teach a good number of our systematic theology courses (like Doctrine of Christ, Doctrine of Man, Holy Spirit, Christian Life, etc.) alongside Michael Horton (Christian Mind, Modern Mind, Doctrine of God, Doctrine of the Church).

We hope to hear from you soon.

Mark


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## Grimmson (Mar 18, 2013)

Before you make a decision on which seminary you would like to attend you must ask yourself two major questions:
1) What do I want from the seminary?
2) Will this seminary be able to provide what am looking for?

In regards to the first question you need to have an idea about what you want to learn about. If you do not have a clear objective and plan in your education then there is a greater chance of disappointment from whatever institution you decide to attend; whether the disappointment due to financial, educational, doctrinal, moral or any combination of the four in regards to your self or the institution your attending. Also this lack of a plan and clear objectives could lead to deficiencies in your own educational framework. 

In regards to the second question, one needs to do their homework and part of that is not only questioning the seminary but also the students at the seminary. For example would the students be in agreement that WSC is not a Klinean school? Why or why not? The hermetical structures of the school are important to consider. But that not the only thing to consider. Are the teachers clear about their own objectives in class? Do students have a hard time following the lectures of the professor? Can you get help with Greek, Hebrew, or any of the other classes you will be taking for the degree? If you cannot then why? What is the practical philosophy of the teachers at the school as a whole? What do other academic institutions think of the school? What do students who have been there for three to four years think of the school (particularly those that never worked for the school, hold school office, or have close connections with someone on the board)? The last is an important question when considering where you want to go to school because the student’s image of it maybe different then one promoted by the faculty of the school. You do not want to invest in a move to a particular location to be disappointed with what you think you are going to get. Particularly since this disappointment could lead to negative relations with other students and faculty at the institution you may perhaps attend. 

I would suggest trying to visit each school that you can. Try to meet with students if you can. Talk to the strangers in the library to get a feel on their attitude of the school. Be careful of potential propaganda of the school; they are trying to positively promote themselves whether it be right or wrong, true or false. 

Also try to read Vos and others before attending any particular school so that you start to establish a foundation. It will serve you well at any school you attend. 

Lastly, if you are interested in Historical Theology and have a particular historical figure or period in mind then look for someone who specializes in that area of interest for you. He may not necessarily be at WSC or at WTS. Such a person may be at RTS or Fuller, or elsewhere. This can be done with a little academic research on your part, which will include some journal articles to see what different teachers are producing.

Hopefully this is helpful for you, because attending the wrong school can be frustrating; specially if you know what you want and your not getting it. 

And one more important point, try to avoid taking student loans if you can.


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## SolaScriptura (Mar 19, 2013)

WSC certainly benefits from having not one, but two representatives on the PB.

I wonder if anyone has ever made the decision to attend a given seminary based upon counsel received here.


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## KMK (Mar 19, 2013)

Lets see...

You can spend your winters in Philadelphia, or in San Diego...

That seems like an easy choice to me.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Mar 19, 2013)

jawyman said:


> "Speaking of Danny Hyde, who is a Pastor out your way and will be here at Mid America next week, I believe he received his Doctorates from Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary. Dr. Joel Beeke is the President there and they teach a wonderful mixture of Acedemic and Pastoral care. A friend of mine is Dr. Beeke's assistant. They also have the Heritage Reformation Bookstore and Publishing wing. They publish some of the most awesome works. They are bringing a lot of the Westminster Divine's writings back into print. Dr. Beeke will be here next weekend to do a conference on Spiritual Warfare."
> 
> Danny is not a Ph.D., and PRTS does not offer Ph.Ds (yet).



Thanks for the opportunity to get it right. This is what he did. 

Rev. Daniel R. Hyde is the pastor of the Oceanside United Reformed Church (United Reformed Churches in North America) in Carlsbad/Oceanside, California. He has a Bachelor of Arts (B.A.) from Vanguard University, Master of Divinity (M.Div.) from Westminster Seminary California, and *a Master of Theology (Th.M.) from Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary. His Th.M. thesis was entitled, "Of Great Importance and of High Concernment: The Liturgical Theology of John Owen (1616-1683)," and was read by Drs. Joel Beeke, Derek W. H. Thomas, and Mark Jones.*

Thanks for helping me be accurate.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Mar 19, 2013)

If I was going to seminary right now my top 4 would be:

1) Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary, Grand Rapids, MI

2) Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary, Pittsburgh, PA

3) Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary, Greenville, SC

4) Mid-America Reformed Seminary, Dyer, IN


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## Rayn (Apr 2, 2013)

When people throw the term "Klinian" around, it's probably because they're allergic to Kline's view of the Mosaic Covenant which Dr. Clark mentioned. 

I'd go WSCAL.


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## FenderPriest (Apr 2, 2013)

WTS. Simply the best.


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## sgemmen9 (Apr 2, 2013)

Well, here's my two cents... go to WTS. In my humble opinion, there are more scholars and probably the most reputable in the USA. Although there are many great scholars and theologians else where, I think WTS has a lot going for it. My roommate went there and I have met many of the faculty from WSC and WTS, both are great schools. But I still recommend WTS.


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