# Felix Manz & Balthasar Hubmaier



## Fly Caster (May 21, 2009)

Can anyone tell me if either of these men were persecuted and killed for anything other than religious (Anabaptist) convictions? For instance, was there anything about them that caused them to be perceived as a threat to the civil order?

Thanks


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## Hippo (May 21, 2009)

Fly Caster said:


> Can anyone tell me if either of these men were persecuted and killed for anything other than religious (Anabaptist) convictions? For instance, was there anything about them that caused them to be perceived as a threat to the civil order?
> 
> Thanks



The challenge to the Church was seen as a threat to civil order, the two options are not exclusive.


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## Fly Caster (May 21, 2009)

Hippo said:


> Fly Caster said:
> 
> 
> > Can anyone tell me if either of these men were persecuted and killed for anything other than religious (Anabaptist) convictions? For instance, was there anything about them that caused them to be perceived as a threat to the civil order?
> ...




Point taken. I know that some Anabaptists openly advocated civil unrest and disturbing the order. However, did these particular men advocate anything like that?


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## Hippo (May 21, 2009)

I have never read that they did and to be honest even if it claimed that they did I would be slow to believe it, history being written by the victors and all.


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## Fly Caster (May 21, 2009)

Hippo said:


> I have never read that they did and to be honest even if it claimed that they did I would be slow to believe it, history being written by the victors and all.



We have to condemn the killings of these men? I've found no shortage of those opposed to our Reformed doctrine wanting to put the Reformers into the worst possible light, blaming them for the deaths of multitudes. It's usually pretty easy to sort out the truth-- but these appear to be a couple of black spots on our history?


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## Prufrock (May 21, 2009)

It was more than simply a challenge to the church which was seen as a disruption to the civil order; many Anabaptists, with their radical dichotomy between the Old and New Testaments (wherein the Old no longer applied in anyway, as it was fleshly, carnal and pertained to earthly law) rejected the concept of laws entirely for the "spiritual man." This meant bad things for civil order and society. One only needs to look at the very real examples of Münster or of Thomas Munzer's rebellion if one is looking to understand the Reformer's fear of this sect.

This, of course, does not mean that every Anabaptist was a rioter; far from it. But considered broadly, these were not unfounded fears.


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