# So the Mormons came by yesterday...



## Jack K (Jul 28, 2010)

The standard two young guys in white shirts and ties. They showed up at our door. It made me recall this thread about whether or not we should show any hospitality to such people. So what did I do? Here's a summary blow by blow:

By the time my wife called me to speak with them, she'd already given them each a glass of cool water. They looked hot and tired. I sat on our back porch with them and got to know them a bit. Where they were from. What fun they'd been able to enjoy in our area, etc.

I figure young Mormons tend to be trapped in a works righteousness system, so when they asked me about spiritual matters I talked about how I used to feel pressure to prove myself to God and the church, but have learned the freedom and power that comes from grace. After I talked a bit about grace, one of them mentioned that indeed "by grace are ye saved, through faith."

So I had him get out his Bible and look at that passage (interestingly, he didn't know where to find that verse he'd quoted). I talked about the context of Ephesians 2. I showed them how Paul says we're saved by grace, not works, but then in the next verse says we're saved to do good works. I talked about how our hearts are inclined to get this backwards—to try to do good works to impress God—when the reality is that having experienced the love of Jesus he impresses us, so that we erupt in good works out of gratitude rather than pressure. I asked if they too felt pressure sometimes.

They wouldn't admit that. Instead they countered with James 2:17: "Faith apart from works is dead." I spoke for a bit about the need not to confuse Paul's use of the word "faith" (πίστις), which almost always refers to saving faith, with James who uses it somewhat differently. Maybe I was showing off. But that really is, I think, the only good way to answer that confusion.

We went back to Ephesians and I tried to speak the gospel from chapters 1 and 2. We looked at how believers were once objects of wrath, but now can enjoy the freedom of being sons of God due to redemption and forgiveness through Christ's blood. I could have done better here.

At some point I told them plainly that I thought their mission was dangerous, both to my neighbors and to their own souls. But I said it nicely. By this time, I had legitimate concern for them.

They were ready to go, so I asked if I could pray for them from chapter 3. They agreed. So I prayed that they would know how high and deep and wide and long is the love of Christ and that Christ would dwell in their hearts by faith. I prayed the same for myself—that I too would know Christ's love more fully. One of them had mentioned that he'd recently begun studying the Bible, so I prayed that God would speak to him through it and that he'd come to see Jesus more clearly.

So that was it. They left. I think I maybe overwhelmed them more than I really spoke to them out of concern for their souls. I'd gotten caught up in making sure I was debating them well, forgetting that it's really pretty easy to win a debate with a young Mormon if you keep it to the Bible. For all their training, they're woefully unprepared to handle the Bible. 

I probably argued biblically too much and spoke/listened to them as persons too little. I was overly pleased with myself for being able to start with a verse _they_ picked and present the gospel from that point (ala Philip with the Ethiopian), and I'm sure my smugness showed through. Not good. Being comfortable with my own failings would have been a far more powerful witness to a couple of guys caught up in performance-based religion.

Still, I hope a seed of the gospel got planted. In my experience, many young Mormons have never really heard it. The encounter reminded me to "always be prepared to give an account of the hope that is within you." I could be better prepared.

Thoughts?...


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## Scott1 (Jul 28, 2010)

Sounds like you handled it well, Jack.

On the one hand, we are not supposed to even receive those bearing a false gospel. On the other, the Word of God may be used to rebuke them.

As they are officially bearing the false gospel, the purpose of their call, it is not a time to listen to what you know is false, and detestable to our Triune God.

I'm glad you prayed for them. It is good you did not countenance the reverse.


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## toddpedlar (Jul 28, 2010)

In all this (the previous thread, and what I've just heard reported by Jack) I wonder if the import of the verb "receive" is misunderstood by those who think Jack did wrong to invite the Mormons in. To the connotation of the phrase "receive those who teach a false gospel" could not be FARTHER from meaning "invite them in and talk with them about Christ". Hearing someone talk about their erroneous and even heretical ideas is NOT "receiving" in the sense meant in that passage. One can hear (and should hear, if one is to counteract what they say!) When receiving those teaching a false gospel is spoken of, rather, it means to accept them and their teaching - not simply to sit with them in your house. Some would have us believe that we should entirely shun anyone who doesn't profess the truth of Reformed theology (what ****!) and not even speak with them socially. That is a horrible witness to the world. 

Jack, well done. You have done your Lord good service.


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## Tim (Jul 28, 2010)

Jack K said:


> They wouldn't admit that. Instead they countered with James 2:17: "Faith apart from works is dead." I spoke for a bit about the need not to confuse Paul's use of the word "faith" (πίστις), which almost always refers to saving faith, with James who uses it somewhat differently. Maybe I was showing off. But that really is, I think, the only good way to answer that confusion.


 
I was listening to James White last night and I think he said that James 2:17 for a Mormon is like John 3:16 for Bible-believing Christians.


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## Jack K (Jul 28, 2010)

Tim said:


> Jack K said:
> 
> 
> > They wouldn't admit that. Instead they countered with James 2:17: "Faith apart from works is dead." I spoke for a bit about the need not to confuse Paul's use of the word "faith" (πίστις), which almost always refers to saving faith, with James who uses it somewhat differently. Maybe I was showing off. But that really is, I think, the only good way to answer that confusion.
> ...



Interesting. It would fit what I know of their theology, and these guys seemed very quick to go there. Like it often rattled grace-spouting Christians like myself. Maybe we need to work on a really good answer to that one. Mine could have been better, I'm sure.


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## Andres (Jul 28, 2010)

toddpedlar said:


> In all this (the previous thread, and what I've just heard reported by Jack) I wonder if the import of the verb "receive" is misunderstood by those who think Jack did wrong to invite the Mormons in. To the connotation of the phrase "receive those who teach a false gospel" could not be FARTHER from meaning "invite them in and talk with them about Christ". Hearing someone talk about their erroneous and even heretical ideas is NOT "receiving" in the sense meant in that passage. One can hear (and should hear, if one is to counteract what they say!) When receiving those teaching a false gospel is spoken of, rather, it means to accept them and their teaching - not simply to sit with them in your house. Some would have us believe that we should entirely shun anyone who doesn't profess the truth of Reformed theology (what ****!) and not even speak with them socially. That is a horrible witness to the world.


 
See, now ya'll got Todd fired up. He's using words that are blocked by asterisks!


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## Willem van Oranje (Jul 28, 2010)

Jack K said:


> Tim said:
> 
> 
> > Jack K said:
> ...


 
Perhaps we should go to James 2:17, and show them the gospel from the immediate context.


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## toddpedlar (Jul 28, 2010)

Andres said:


> toddpedlar said:
> 
> 
> > In all this (the previous thread, and what I've just heard reported by Jack) I wonder if the import of the verb "receive" is misunderstood by those who think Jack did wrong to invite the Mormons in. To the connotation of the phrase "receive those who teach a false gospel" could not be FARTHER from meaning "invite them in and talk with them about Christ". Hearing someone talk about their erroneous and even heretical ideas is NOT "receiving" in the sense meant in that passage. One can hear (and should hear, if one is to counteract what they say!) When receiving those teaching a false gospel is spoken of, rather, it means to accept them and their teaching - not simply to sit with them in your house. Some would have us believe that we should entirely shun anyone who doesn't profess the truth of Reformed theology (what ****!) and not even speak with them socially. That is a horrible witness to the world.
> ...


 


I guess one can supply whatever word he wants there... funny the filter doesn't like the synonym for manure that rhymes with snap


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## Willem van Oranje (Jul 28, 2010)

Other good topics to bring up, to show them that their system is not biblical are the imputation of Adam's sin to his natural posterity (e.g. from Romans 5) or the doctrine of election (e.g. from Romans 9.) These biblical doctrines really push their buttons. They hate them viscerally.

Another good topic to pursue with Mormons is God's judgment for sin (e.g. the flood, the killing of Egypts first born, hell) They have a really hard time reconciling these passages with their view of God. Plus, sometimes Narrative seems to be more effective with them than doctrinal passages. They are more narrative-than abstract doctrine-oriented.


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## Scott1 (Jul 29, 2010)

> II Corinthians 11
> 3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
> 4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
> 
> ...



We don't want to underestimate the dangers of "receiving" those bearing a false gospel. When we are referring to people who are commissioned to share their false religion and are on mission to do so (such as door visitation), it is pure evil.

This is not the same as an incidental contact, say a work, where an encounter with a co-worker is on an entirely different footing. And there will be many opportunities to share biblical precepts in those situations as Christians are to go out "into every man's world." All believers are missionaries, in that sense. 

There is danger, however, in circumstances of door visitation by those coming specifically to promote religion which is false and detestable to our God, of being deceived or creating a false impression of being deceived (ninth commandment violation). Many would do well to rebuke them and close the door because of their own weak faith, or weakness to sin. The power around the false religion and the deceit that accompanies it is nothing to fool with.



> II Corinthians 11
> 
> 12But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
> 
> ...


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