# has anyone ever heard of this belief??



## BJClark (Oct 12, 2007)

> The God I read about is loving and learned his lessons from the old testament.
> I believe God is brilliant and can learn how humans act work and what we need.



I have honestly never heard this belief before today...


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## Blueridge Believer (Oct 12, 2007)

BJClark said:


> > The God I read about is loving and learned his lessons from the old testament.
> > I believe God is brilliant and can learn how humans act work and what we need.
> 
> 
> ...



Sounds like some form of open theism.


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## Poimen (Oct 12, 2007)

With the statement(s) that God has learned or is learning it sounds as if the person is an open theist.


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## Dr Mike Kear (Oct 12, 2007)




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## BJClark (Oct 12, 2007)

Thank you all for your replies...I guess maybe I need to read up on this in order to understand it more..

I've seriously never heard of God needing to learn anything from us as His creation..it's like HUH???


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## Poimen (Oct 12, 2007)

With all the wrath and justice at the end of history (see the Book of Revelation) it seems as if God reverts back to His former self. 

How foolish and man centered! God in the image of man... how destructive. See Proverbs 14:12


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## DMcFadden (Oct 12, 2007)

It depends on who wrote the piece and for what venue. While open theism would also be my guess, depending on the age of the person, it might also be a popularization of some vague ideas of process theology.


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## BrianLanier (Oct 12, 2007)

BJClark said:


> > The God I read about is loving and learned his lessons from the old testament.
> > I believe God is brilliant and can learn how humans act work and what we need.
> 
> 
> ...



Their statement is poorly stated and vague, though it does seem to be a logical outworking of Arminianism, i.e., Open Theism. However, since it is so poorly stated, I am hesitant to classify it as *representative* of Open Theism. Just as when someone makes statements that are poorly stated and *sound* Calvinistic. Most open theists, Hasker, et al., still believe that God knows all of the possibilities of future contingencies. He just *cannot* know (for certain) what will be actual until it is actual--though he can be predictive through his intimate knowledge of the individual(s) past action. So he may "learn" what becomes actual, but it is not as if God had 'no idea' ("learned his lessons"--'oh, so THAT"S what humans need.') about the ways in which humans act and their needs, since he knows all of the possible ways they could act. I would think that Open Theists would want to give more credit to God's predictive knowledge than the statement above suggests.

(I am NOT an Open Theist)


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## BJClark (Oct 12, 2007)

What I find interesting and pray the agnostic who was part of the conversion makes note of..is that this person also stated...these things concerning their beliefs about God..notice all the contradiction..

The agnostic actually goes to Church with his wife and children, and wants to encourage them to decide for themselves what they believe...(and some people who post on the other forum who claim to be Christians, are telling him thats a bad thing..and that he should not go with them to church because he is agnostic)hmmmmmm

He also stated he likes what I understand Christianity to be, as opposed to what he has learned..and wants to know more about it..and mentioned he should to talk more to his father 
who is now a believer...to learn more..(I guess his father wasn't a believer when he was growing up)..



> I believe God is so wise and perfect that he has good traits.
> 
> 
> 1. Honesty
> ...



And yes, I am the one they feel insulted by (not a problem) however, All I said that insulted them...was that based on what she has shared she believes about God and what I believe to to be true about God...I would have to say with 110% certainty..we do not worship the same God..as I do not believe God being God can learn anything from us as His creation..


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## BJClark (Oct 12, 2007)

DMcFadden;



> It depends on who wrote the piece and for what venue. While open theism would also be my guess, depending on the age of the person, it might also be a popularization of some vague ideas of process theology.



This is someone I know from another forum..and they are in their 40's..


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## DMcFadden (Oct 12, 2007)

I take back my comments. I doubt that the person you cite as an agnostic would know enough to even parrot an Open Theist position. Sounds to me as if he is just applying the accumulated "wisdom" of man to the unknown reality of a possible deity.


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## BrianLanier (Oct 12, 2007)

DMcFadden said:


> I take back my comments. I doubt that the person you cite as an agnostic would know enough to even parrot an Open Theist position. Sounds to me as if he is just applying the accumulated "wisdom" of man to the unknown reality of a possible deity.



Yep, even Open Theists would run from a person like this! And I wouldn't even call this the accumulated wisdom of man, since intelligent unbelievers would be puzzled at her formulations of deity.


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## BrianLanier (Oct 12, 2007)

From her statements to you (Bobbi):



> I believe God is so wise and perfect that he has good traits.


?? Isn't being 'wise' and being 'perfect' "good traits" (or attributes)?



> 1. Honesty


OK


> 2. Love


OK (loving)


> 3. Power tempered with good


OK


> 4. Opnipotenc (sp)


???


> 5. all knowing if God is all knowing...what does he have to learn???)


I assume the '...what does he have to learn???' is from Bobbi. This isn't a contradiction provided that she believes in libertarian free will and the unknowablility future contingents. She would still be affirming that God knows everything there is to know. The point being that the future isn't something to know until it's actual. So, while the Bible clearly contradicts that premise, it is nonetheless not a contradiction _on her assumptions_ (I am assuming she believes in LFW).


> 6. Many many more good traits.


So God has the 'trait' of having "many many more good traits". OK



> *[1]* I believe a good "trait" God has is "ability to learn". *[2]* All through the Bible it shows how God tried one thing with us and it did not work so God changed. Then he put Jesus on earth and changed even more. *[3]*He is so perfect he is open to learning the lessons "from the universe". *[4]*He wants us to learn also things. Learning is a good thing in God's book.



1) I think she is using "to learn" equovically between God and us. God does not learn things inferentially or mediately, he knows all things in the most direct, immediate way.

2) Please demonstrate this from the Bible--that one state of affairs turned out to frustrate God's intentions. All supposed examples are better described as 'accommodation'.

3) ??? Not sure what this even means???

4) Refer to response (1).



> I am not putting God down to say he has the ability to learn. I am not limiting God's learning to learning from human beings either. That would be too limiting and God is limitless.


Perhaps not, but I am not not even sure she knows what she IS saying. What does it mean to say that God learns from human beings?



> *(1)* Any wise and perfect, infinite being, can LEARN!!!!! *(2)*Otherwise it is unmoveable and cold and not alive and I believe God is loving, learning and alive. And many other things.


(1) is true, but the ability to learn and the use of that ability are two different things. 

(2) doesn't follow from (1) whatsoever.



> Though "learning" is not a trait we usually associate with God by his actions in the Bible I see it in Gods actions in the Bible that this learning happens occasionally.



Where, exactly? Again, better described as 'accommodation'.



> I really am insulted when other christians try and tell me how I need to interpret the Bible and the way I am interpreting it is wrong. They are mere human beings just like me.


I am really insulted when other mathematicians tell me that the sum of 7 and 5 is not 75, they are mere human beings just like me.



> God tells me what HIS word means. All I have to do is ask Him for help and he will reveal it to me on a need to know basis.


Ok, me too, except his word tells me that you're mistaken. Now what?


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## Davidius (Oct 12, 2007)

I don't think I would call it Open Theism, either. It sounds too ignorant and vague to be anything systematic. The person is probably just your average Joe who has cobbled together several things heard here and there with whatever seems good to him.


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## BJClark (Oct 12, 2007)

DMcFadden;



> I take back my comments. I doubt that the person you cite as an agnostic would know enough to even parrot an Open Theist position. Sounds to me as if he is just applying the accumulated "wisdom" of man to the unknown reality of a possible deity.



I think you misunderstood what I said...and I will have to go back and re-read to make sure what I said was clear..

It's not the agnostic who believes this...it is someone who calls themself a Christian..

The agnostic, asked to know more about the Christianity I was talking about..


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## BJClark (Oct 12, 2007)

BrianLanier;





> I assume the '...what does he have to learn???' is from Bobbi.



Yes, that was my comment to what she said..



> This isn't a contradiction provided that she believes in libertarian free will and the unknowablility future contingents. She would still be affirming that God knows everything there is to know. The point being that the future isn't something to know until it's actual. So, while the Bible clearly contradicts that premise, it is nonetheless not a contradiction _on her assumptions_ (I am assuming she believes in LFW).



I honestly don't know if she libertarian free-will, but I do know she doesn't believe in God's wrath..




> What does it mean to say that God learns from human beings?



From my understanding of what she said she believes...



> The God I read about *is loving and learned his lessons from the old testament.*
> I believe God is brilliant and *can learn how humans act work and what we need.*



As if He doesn't already know how we act, work and what we need...



> I am really insulted when other mathematicians tell me that the sum of 7 and 5 is not 75, they are mere human beings just like me.





And again, thank you all for your responses...I have learned something new..


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## toddpedlar (Oct 12, 2007)

BJClark said:


> > The God I read about is loving and learned his lessons from the old testament.
> > I believe God is brilliant and can learn how humans act work and what we need.
> 
> 
> ...



As David and others have noted this isn't quite open theistic... perhaps process theology, at least in broad terms. The main problem I see is that not only is this god who is presented in the statement above "learning", and somehow "evolved" since Old Testament times, but he is also presented as someone whose aim is to serve man - "he can learn how humans act, work and what we need." The god spoken of in this quotation needed to learn what we need, presumably so he can serve us. 

This is really quite blasphemous - even to the point of being worse than open theism, in my book anyway.


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