# Coral Ridge Ends Age-Segregated Worship



## nasa30 (Aug 26, 2010)

From the Article


> A Florida megachurch has axed its traditional and contemporary Sunday worship services, refusing to continue down the wide path of segregated worship.
> 
> 
> Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Fort Lauderdale now offers only one service at 10:15 a.m. with, essentially, blended worship – that means no more separation based on age, likes and comfort.


 
I really thought this quote was unusual _



The megachurch pastor also said he doesn't view separate worship services by style or age as any different from racial segregation, except that it's more subtle

Click to expand...

_


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## N. Eshelman (Aug 26, 2010)

Are there numbers quite low now that D.James is there preaching about the religious right? I have heard that the new pastor is quite different than his predecessor. 

Is this an issue of "reforming" or is this an issue of not having enough members for this practice?


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## Semper Fidelis (Aug 26, 2010)

nleshelman said:


> Are there numbers quite low now that D.James is there preaching about the religious right? I have heard that the new pastor is quite different than his predecessor.
> 
> Is this an issue of "reforming" or is this an issue of not having enough members for this practice?


 
Pretty large staff if they have few members: Staff

Good for them in brining everyone together for worship.


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## Scott1 (Aug 26, 2010)

There's not much information to go on in this news account.

I'm not sure the title is even capturing the story. It seems, hard to tell with the scant information presented, but it seems the story is not about age, but not having separate "themed" worship services.

For purposes of unifying a church, this is likely a positive thing.

This church is now growing again, and there is every reason to believe, moving in a good direction.


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## LawrenceU (Aug 26, 2010)

I recall hearing an interview on the radio in which they stated, if my memory is correct, that the attendance and membership were growing quite well. I think they said that it was larger than it was when Dr. Kennedy passed away.


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## Afterthought (Aug 26, 2010)

Scott1 said:


> I'm not sure the title is even capturing the story. It seems, hard to tell with the scant information presented, but it seems the story is not about age, but not having separate "themed" worship services.
> 
> For purposes of unifying a church, this is likely a positive thing.


Yes, that is precisely what the story is about. Pastor Tullian even said at one point during his sermon that the church should not be separated over something as trivial as music style preferences. He preached on Epehsians 4:1-6, and If I recall correctly, he plans on going through the rest of chapter 4.


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## rbcbob (Aug 26, 2010)

Here is the pastor's blog:

Tullian Tchividjian

He has made such statements regarding the Church and the world as "we can't make a difference if we are not different"


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## Scott1 (Aug 26, 2010)

Reading the Pastor's blog, this is very good, sound biblical, reasoning.

While I don't know, it would not at all be surprising if there has been a good ground laid for this in recent preaching and teaching at the church, e.g. the basis of biblical worship, etc.

This is all very good.


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## Jack K (Aug 26, 2010)

Yeah, I really like his blog comments too. His reasoning is far better than the "we want to accommodate everyone" mindset you so often hear.


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## Rangerus (Aug 26, 2010)

hallelujah, 'bout time we all followed.


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## N. Eshelman (Aug 26, 2010)

Thanks for the clarification. I really was unsure... not JUST being sarcastic!


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## Steve Curtis (Aug 26, 2010)

Rangerus said:


> hallelujah, 'bout time we all followed.


 
Funny seeing you talk about "following" with that avatar!


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## raekwon (Aug 26, 2010)




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## Scott1 (Aug 26, 2010)

Afterthought said:


> Scott1 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not sure the title is even capturing the story. It seems, hard to tell with the scant information presented, but it seems the story is not about age, but not having separate "themed" worship services.
> ...


 
We would acknowledge that every aspect of what is called worship, and corporate worship specifically here is important. It's important that it be regulated by the Word of God, and not by the imaginations of men. 

And I sense, could be wrong, but it really seems the good Pastor understands that, and by teaching through this thoroughly, biblicaly, he is leading in uniting a church in something that is very important- worship.

Remember, in reformed theology, the unity of the church must be grounded on doctrinal agreement. This includes a basis of worship.


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## Edward (Aug 26, 2010)

nleshelman said:


> Are there numbers quite low now that D.James is there preaching about the religious right? I have heard that the new pastor is quite different than his predecessor.
> 
> Is this an issue of "reforming" or is this an issue of not having enough members for this practice?


 
The New Presbyterian Church is getting ready to call their first pastor - a retired army chaplain (Belhaven & RTS grad).


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## N. Eshelman (Aug 26, 2010)

Edward said:


> nleshelman said:
> 
> 
> > Are there numbers quite low now that D.James is there preaching about the religious right? I have heard that the new pastor is quite different than his predecessor.
> ...


 
I am very confused...


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## raekwon (Aug 27, 2010)

nleshelman said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> > nleshelman said:
> ...


 
"The New Presbyterian Church" is the name of the church formed by the dissenters after Coral Ridge voted to retain Rev. Tchividjian as pastor.


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## bookslover (Aug 27, 2010)

Sounds like Tchividjian is beginning to make his mark, and that Kennedy being called to glory is resulting in a healthier church. Maybe the church will now play down the politics that Kennedy seemed to be so absorbed in. It also reflects what happens in any church with a new pastor as the congregation begins to realize that the new guy is NOT the old guy, and has no interest in being the old guy. That can be a tough transitional time for some churches.


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## Afterthought (Aug 27, 2010)

Scott1 said:


> We would acknowledge that every aspect of what is called worship, and corporate worship specifically here is important. It's important that it be regulated by the Word of God, and not by the imaginations of men.
> 
> And I sense, could be wrong, but it really seems the good Pastor understands that, and by teaching through this thoroughly, biblicaly, he is leading in uniting a church in something that is very important- worship.


I agree completely. And I too think this is a good move on the Pastor's part. To me, it seems the best, most unifying, and most consistent way to be both non-EP and RPW. The only other thing he could do to be more consistent would be to sing at least one Psalm each service, but knowing how big a guy he is on the RPW, he probably is as consistent as one can get on this already. As I already mentioned, I think this is a very good move.


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## Pergamum (Aug 28, 2010)

> he doesn't view separate worship services by style or age as any different from racial segregation




A good move defended with a poor analogy.


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## Andres (Aug 28, 2010)

Pergamum said:


> > he doesn't view separate worship services by style or age as any different from racial segregation
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
why is this a poor analogy? Racial segragation is bad and so is age/style segragation. Both are unneccessary and unscriptural.


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## Edward (Aug 28, 2010)

Andres said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > > he doesn't view separate worship services by style or age as any different from racial segregation
> ...


 
Because the age segregation was voluntary. They didn't have ushers standing out front turning away folks that were the 'wrong' age. Folks self selected, largely based on music choices. (Now, some folks will likely self select to a different location for the same reason). 

During the good old days, some churches would station ushers on the front steps to direct those of the 'wrong' race to worship somewhere else. 

Perhaps some view this as a moral equivalence. I don't.


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## Pergamum (Aug 28, 2010)

Bingo, it is tacky to use images of racism and jim crow to fight two worship services instead of one.


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## louis (Aug 28, 2010)

Was there really age segregation? Were people told to go to one service or another based on their age?

We have two different services at our church and there are many young people at the traditional service and many old at the contemporary service. I find it difficult to believe that a church would actually segregate based on age.


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## Austin (Aug 28, 2010)

The new minister at CRPC is a RTS grad and came from one of the most doctrinally confessional presbyteries in the EPC (Florida). I should think this bodes well for CRPC. I can't tell y'all how glad I am not to hear about how "America's Godly Heritage," "the faith of the Founding Fathers," etc has stopped spewing from this otherwise (apparently) sound church. It had gotten to the point that it seemed as if DJK thought that 1st 5 presidents of the US were part of the company of apostles or something. 

Dr. Kennedy had many strong points, but the whole emphasis on US politics was just too much. Oy vey...


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## BlackCalvinist (Aug 29, 2010)

Amen and Amen. Part of the reason there's an 'age divide' is because there's an AGE DIVIDE!


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## Afterthought (Aug 30, 2010)

louis said:


> Was there really age segregation? Were people told to go to one service or another based on their age?


Possibly. No.

Since Pastor Tullian seems to me to be the kind of person who won't change things for no reason, I'm sure there was some sort of "age segregation"--though I agree the analogy he made was poor.

It seems to me what happened was that though people were not forced to go to one place or another, it just kind of happened on its own. What probably happened--and I'm not saying this happens with all churches that have two different services--is that the people who started going to the traditional service started thinking differently about the people who went to the contemporary service and vice versa. So there was a natural "split" so to speak that was different then the "split" that occurs when a church has more than one service that is the same. Perhaps there may have been a few youngsters in the traditional service and older people in the contemporary service, but overall the majority in each service were relatively of the same age.

However, though that is a realistic scenario and has happened to some churches before, concerning Coral Ridge this is all speculation.


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## Jack K (Aug 30, 2010)

It doesn't have to be institutional. Sometimes people segregate _themselves_ by age. In fact, to overcome it takes intentional effort, if you can do so at all.

In my church, our two Sunday services are identical except for the start times... and who shows up. One service tends to attract a younger crowd while most of the older people are at the other. Why is that? Does age, the presence of young children in the family, or some other factor make certain times of day more convenient for people? Or do folks just prefer to worship with their friends of the same generation, so that one age group ends up informally "picking" a particular service? It's probably a bit of both. We don't want it to happen, but it does. And short of major construction on the building to enlarge the meeting space so we can have just one service, we don't know how to fix it.


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## BlackCalvinist (Aug 31, 2010)

Heh. Had no idea that the folk who disagreed with the new pastor left CRPC and formed a new church.

Not a good look, in my opinion. Taking your ball and going home is childish.


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## raekwon (Aug 31, 2010)

BlackCalvinist said:


> Heh. Had no idea that the folk who disagreed with the new pastor left CRPC and formed a new church.
> 
> Not a good look, in my opinion. Taking your ball and going home is childish.


 
To be fair, that's probably close to what the old PCUS said about us back in 1973. ;-)


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## Zenas (Aug 31, 2010)

Am I the only young person who would attend the "old folks" service?


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## Tripel (Aug 31, 2010)

Zenas said:


> Am I the only young person who would attend the "old folks" service?


 
If the "old folks" service is the one with the traditional style, then no, I'd be there too.


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## raekwon (Aug 31, 2010)

Ahh, "traditional" and "contemporary" are such meaningless words when it comes to this stuff! Whose traditions? Whose contemporaries?


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## Zenas (Aug 31, 2010)

Are you young enough to be in the "young persons" club?


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## Tripel (Aug 31, 2010)

raekwon said:


> Ahh, "traditional" and "contemporary" are such meaningless words when it comes to this stuff! Whose traditions? Whose contemporaries?


 
I understand your point, but the terms are not meaningless. In a discussion about worship services among a reformed group of people, there is a general consensus regarding the meaning of "traditional" and "contemporary". They may not be the perfect terms, but they do have meaning.

---------- Post added at 09:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:49 AM ----------




Zenas said:


> Are you young enough to be in the "young persons" club?


 
I like to think so, but I'm feeling older by the day.


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## Edward (Aug 31, 2010)

BlackCalvinist said:


> Heh. Had no idea that the folk who disagreed with the new pastor left CRPC and formed a new church.
> 
> Not a good look, in my opinion. Taking your ball and going home is childish.


 
I would suggest that you do some additional research before commenting further. I realize that the new pastor at Coral Ridge is popular here, so I don't want to get into extended debate. I don't believe, however, that it is fair to characterize it as 'taking your ball and going home' when ordered off the premises.


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## BlackCalvinist (Sep 2, 2010)

Fair enough Edward. I'll back off my comments and do some more digging first. You are right.


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## BlackCalvinist (Sep 2, 2010)

A little digging turned this up:
http://churchexecutive.com/archives...ents-challenge-the-leadership-of-a-new-pastor

Comments section is the important area for me:


> Another comment from a dissident. Unfortunately, Tulian Tchivijian has been speaking around the country on radio and television and giving his side of the story. The other side needs to be heard as well. Concerning some of his comments: “Coral Ridge had become widely known for what it was against much more than what it was for.” You can’t be serious! Dr. Kennedy biggest contribution to the cause of Christ was Evangelism Explosion equipping lay people to share their faith. In its 45 years since its inception over 50 million people around the world have made professions of faith. What’s negative about that? Being pro life and against abortion is a negative thing? Showing concern for our country and being patriotic and that includes politics is a bad thing? In one sentence Tulllian has dismissed a lifetime of ministry of Dr. Kennedy. “Attracting the same kinds of people Jesus attracted was hated by the dissidents.” I don’t recall any one raising that objection. “People have apologized and repented.” For what? Should many leaders in the reformed community and PCA who supported the dissidents 100% repent also? Matthew 5:23-24 “Therefore if you are offering your gift at the atlar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother then come and offer your gift.” “They never once asked to meet with me (Tullian) face to face.” Even if this was true and I heard many did try. Tullian said he vowed to change CRPC. Personally I like the idea of robes, however to change to suits was not a big deal. Contemporary music is good music. Couldn’t you have gradually made changes? Explain why you are making them? Honor and respect the past?
> The statement “the issues they were raising weren’t the real issues.” What are you referring to? Was it really asking too much from you to participate in EE? No we didn’t ask you to focus on politics. Just agree that politics is important. It does affect the way we live and it’s okay to occassionally speak out about it from the pulpit. I am convinced that this split would not have happened if as Gary said, character, love, humilty and compassion had been put into practice.



I'm going to kinda head back to my original statement now. Those folks associated with CRPC's "old ways" seem to wanna kinda stay there. 

Personally, while some issues do need to be addressed from the pulpit, politics as a whole needs NOT to be. Our first allegiance on Sunday morning is to Christ, not America. There's been a dangerous and dirty merging of American patriotism with Christianity for years and it's done more to HURT the gospel and muddle the message (i.e. Beck's rally wasn't only supported by Mormons....) of the gospel with the idea of cultural renewal. 

I noticed that one of the things stressed by the break-away group on their website was the 'Cultural Mandate'. While I do find instructions for those living in exile and living transgenerationally (i.e. Jeremiah 29), I don't find the type of "American Patriot = Christian" transformational model that is popular among conservative folk today in *scripture*. I know this steps on the toes of quite a few people, but in all honesty, *stop* trying to add to the gospel. The gospel of American Patriotism has probably done more harm to 'us' when we do step into the public arena because we've allowed the message of *the* gospel to be co-opted for political gain and or the rose-colored imaginary "when I was younger" days that everyone wants to turn the country 'back' to (my take: it was never there to begin with....).

---------- Post added at 01:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:46 AM ----------




BlackCalvinist said:


> Fair enough Edward. I'll back off my comments and do some more digging first. You are right.


 
Aaaand, I'm back.

A little digging turned this up:
A Ray of Hope in South Florida | internetmonk.com

Comments section:


> I think some of you people are drinking Tullian’s Kool-Aid. I am a victim of his takeover of Coral Ridge Church. I listened to him stand in front of our congregation and promise the people that those who worked at CR would not lose their jobs, the worship music and service would stay the same, and he was a “cultural mandate junkie” who would continue DJK’s legacy. The day after he was installed as pastor, he fired the worship team leader and told the worship team (some of whom had been singing for 17 years!) that they would have to audition to be on the new worship team. I watched in horror as he systematically replaced ministry leaders who had years of experience with younger people from his former church. I waited in a lineup in the hallway on June 2, 2009, while one by one, ministers and other employees were called in to the HR director’s office to be fired from our jobs. I witnessed his rage as he charged after a choir member who dared to challenge him. We went through another “purging” as our “secret” ballots were not so secret, and any choir member who voted against him was told they could not sing anymore. This was done without the benefit of approval by the Session. He took out the traditional prayers and hyms from the worship service. You say he preaches the Gospel, but I seldom heard the name of Jesus Christ from his pulpit, and I never heard him ask people to recite the sinners’ prayer and give their lives to Jesus Christ. He blames the exodus of the “dissidents” on our desire to continue political activism, all the while ignoring his own role in our leaving. He always manages to blame someone or something else for what goes wrong. His ego will not allow him to accept the blame. We didn’t leave because we wanted to maintain DJK’s legacy. We left because the new pastor was unbearable. We are not idolators. We don’t worship the building or the politics or the choir. We just wanted the purity of our theology to remain intact. Our new church is a joyful, happy place where we rejoice in tradition but delight in the fact that Jesus Christ is being preached every Sunday, and it doesn’t take 18 weeks to get across the message. (His next book will be your new sermon series, I’m sure.) I wish you all well, but I, for one, will never go back to the white elephant on Federal Highway.



and also (in response to it..also in the comments):


> Its really sad to see how some people such as Monzillo harbor such anger and hatred and continue to spew it across the internet. Tullinan’s sermons are filled with the Gospel of Jesus to no end and I am at a loss where the accusation that he lacks that exists. CRPC is thriving and there are a majority of older/long timer members that stayed and would strongly not agree with the propaganda that has been spread about. There are many key people still there from the previous administration. Another thing I see is the church does not reach its hand into the peoples pocket so hard.
> 
> My prayer is that we can accept each other in the name of Christ our Lord and put aside our differences so we may move the kingdom forward… amen



I also found this:

http://churchexecutive.com/archives...ents-challenge-the-leadership-of-a-new-pastor

Comments section is the important area for me:


> Another comment from a dissident. Unfortunately, Tulian Tchivijian has been speaking around the country on radio and television and giving his side of the story. The other side needs to be heard as well. Concerning some of his comments: “Coral Ridge had become widely known for what it was against much more than what it was for.” You can’t be serious! Dr. Kennedy biggest contribution to the cause of Christ was Evangelism Explosion equipping lay people to share their faith. In its 45 years since its inception over 50 million people around the world have made professions of faith. What’s negative about that? Being pro life and against abortion is a negative thing? Showing concern for our country and being patriotic and that includes politics is a bad thing? In one sentence Tulllian has dismissed a lifetime of ministry of Dr. Kennedy. “Attracting the same kinds of people Jesus attracted was hated by the dissidents.” I don’t recall any one raising that objection. “People have apologized and repented.” For what? Should many leaders in the reformed community and PCA who supported the dissidents 100% repent also? Matthew 5:23-24 “Therefore if you are offering your gift at the atlar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother then come and offer your gift.” “They never once asked to meet with me (Tullian) face to face.” Even if this was true and I heard many did try. Tullian said he vowed to change CRPC. Personally I like the idea of robes, however to change to suits was not a big deal. Contemporary music is good music. Couldn’t you have gradually made changes? Explain why you are making them? Honor and respect the past?
> The statement “the issues they were raising weren’t the real issues.” What are you referring to? Was it really asking too much from you to participate in EE? No we didn’t ask you to focus on politics. Just agree that politics is important. It does affect the way we live and it’s okay to occassionally speak out about it from the pulpit. I am convinced that this split would not have happened if as Gary said, character, love, humilty and compassion had been put into practice.



I'm going to kinda head back to my original statement now. Those folks associated with CRPC's "old ways" seem to wanna kinda stay there. 

Personally, while some issues do need to be addressed from the pulpit, politics as a whole needs NOT to be. Our first allegiance on Sunday morning is to Christ, not America. There's been a dangerous and dirty merging of American patriotism with Christianity for years and it's done more to HURT the gospel and muddle the message (i.e. Beck's rally wasn't only supported by Mormons....) of the gospel with the idea of cultural renewal. 

I noticed that one of the things stressed by the break-away group on their website was the 'Cultural Mandate'. While I do find instructions for those living in exile and living transgenerationally (i.e. Jeremiah 29), I don't find the type of "American Patriot = Christian" transformational model that is popular among conservative folk today in *scripture*. I know this steps on the toes of quite a few people, but in all honesty, *stop* trying to add to the gospel. The gospel of American Patriotism has probably done more harm to 'us' when we do step into the public arena because we've allowed the message of *the* gospel to be co-opted for political gain and or the rose-colored imaginary "when I was younger" days that everyone wants to turn the country 'back' to (my take: it was never there to begin with....). 

I think the 'take our ball and go home' comment was accurate, all things from the folks who call themselves 'dissidents' being taken as true.

On the flip side, if some of TT's reactions as stated by his dissenters are accurate, I can see why the session sided with them over him. 

Still, when they return, will they quietly submit to the leadership of the church, or continue to attempt to undermine the pastor ?


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## BJClark (Sep 2, 2010)

Jack K



> In my church, our two Sunday services are identical except for the start times... and who shows up. One service tends to attract a younger crowd while most of the older people are at the other. Why is that? Does age, the presence of young children in the family, or some other factor make certain times of day more convenient for people? Or do folks just prefer to worship with their friends of the same generation, so that one age group ends up informally "picking" a particular service? It's probably a bit of both. We don't want it to happen, but it does. And short of major construction on the building to enlarge the meeting space so we can have just one service, we don't know how to fix it.



Ours has been much like that as well, the reasons vary among the folks, but here are a few.

1. some who go to the earlier service do so because they like to be out of church before noon, if they want to do something else they can.
2. some go earlier as it keeps their school age children on the same schedule over the weekend as the weekdays-of getting up early
3. Most like the more contemporary upbeat style of music

Many of our elderly go to the traditional service--but so do many 'younger' folks

1. some live further out and it's a drive for them to get there
2. the drums and guitars affect their hearing aides
3. some prefer not to be on the same schedule they are during the week--getting up early and rushing out the door to be some where..
4. Some have elderly parents in wheel chairs that also want to be in church, and it is difficult to get them there any earlier..

Those are just a few of the things I have heard concerning why various people prefer the different services at our church..

The preaching is the same, the only difference is the style of music..

Our church has even started having a Saturday evening service (which I haven't gone to yet) so I really can't say how many people go or what the generational make up is..or even what the music style is..


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## Scott1 (Sep 2, 2010)

Somehow, I see a whole lot of good coming out of this.

The late esteemed Pastor dedicated himself to the cause of Christ and finished well. All of us have a tendency to become "respecters of persons"- it is even happening today around a few visible people in the denomination. Whether we lead, or follow, we're not to become that, yet, as sinners, we have a tendency to do that. 

In hindsight, it would appear both groups have not done due diligence toward the reconciliation which is both the command and the fruit of the gospel. Few are in this generation. Think about that before casting the first stone (that goes for all of us).

Yet, in spite of this, we have two biblical reformed churches growing.

The esteemed new Pastor and the existing Session are quite wise to study and teach through Scripture concerning worship, and then combine one basic approach for all services. This unifies. And when Scripture is sought as its basis, we have every reason to believe it greatly pleases our God.

If defined carefully, a 'cultural mandate,' is part of reformed theology, though not the highest priority of it. We have to admit, the reformed church, and broadly evangelical ones, have almost completely retreated from engaging the public morality, some even thinking somehow that makes the church more spiritual.

The consequences of that have been rapid, dramatic and severe, and all, believer and unbeliever, are feeling its effects. Nor has it made the church more spiritual, or so it seems. 

I'm thankful the esteemed late Pastor understood this, and did a lot to improve it. He made it priority to win souls, and impact where he lived and beyond. We owe him a great debt of gratitude.

I'm also thankful for the esteemed new Pastor, who is also finding his way toward a powerful reformed church that builds a vital and active covenant community.

He will have the same challenges not encouraging respecters of his great namesake.

But I have faith God has and continues to use great men like this in their generations.

That cannot help but be a good thing for the Body of Christ, for the reformed faith, and for our denomination.


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