# "L" in TULIP



## johnny_redeemed (May 5, 2004)

What is your favorite verse for showing that the &quot;L&quot; in TULIP is Biblical?


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## Bladestunner316 (May 5, 2004)

can it be chapters?

John 15
Romans 9

blade


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## Puritan Sailor (May 5, 2004)

John 17
Romans 3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9
Gal. 3,4
Hebrews 2,10


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## Scott Bushey (May 5, 2004)

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.


The term &quot;elect&quot; is excluding. Not everyone is elect, hence, the atonement is 'limited' to the elect alone.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (May 5, 2004)

Matthew 1:21, &quot;And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save [b:46fea1f725]his people[/b:46fea1f725] from their sins.&quot;

John 10:15, &quot;As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life [b:46fea1f725]for the sheep.&quot;[/b:46fea1f725]

John 15:13, &quot;Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life [b:46fea1f725]for his friends.&quot;[/b:46fea1f725]

Acts 20:28, &quot;Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all [b:46fea1f725]the flock[/b:46fea1f725], over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, [b:46fea1f725]which he hath purchased[/b:46fea1f725] with his own blood.&quot;

Ephesians 5:25, &quot;Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also [b:46fea1f725]loved the church, and gave himself for it;&quot;[/b:46fea1f725]


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## johnny_redeemed (May 6, 2004)

Paul, I have read many things you have said and I have come to this conclusion.....I like you! I think your picture has a bit to do with that!!  


p.s. how did you get all those stars under your name?

p.p.s.s. my favorite &quot;L&quot; verse is Matt 26:28, &quot;For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.&quot;


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## cupotea (May 6, 2004)

[quote:7f3721efab][i:7f3721efab]Originally posted by johnny_redeemed[/i:7f3721efab]


p.s. how did you get all those stars under your name?

[/quote:7f3721efab]

The more posts you make, the more stars you receive.


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## johnny_redeemed (May 6, 2004)

You are not Paul, but thanks!!!! 






this is for you 

@----/-----------


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## johnny_redeemed (May 6, 2004)

Paul we also both are Calvinist's and members of a PCA church. I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship!! 
Did you go to college anywhere or are you self taught? It seems like you know a LOT from what I have read about you.


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## johnny_redeemed (May 6, 2004)

[quote:9fae7572ff][i:9fae7572ff]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:9fae7572ff]
[quote:9fae7572ff][i:9fae7572ff]Originally posted by johnny_redeemed[/i:9fae7572ff]
Paul we also both are Calvinist's and members of a PCA church. I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship!! 
Did you go to college anywhere or are you self taught? It seems like you know a LOT from what I have read about you. 


 [/quote:9fae7572ff]

I was self taught up until about a year ago and then started going to Bahnsen Theological Seminary for apologetics.

I became a Christian about 5 years ago and flet really behind, like I wasted my whole life, so I have been trying to &quot;catch-up&quot; so-to-speak. I thank you for the compliment but as you post more I am sure you will see that I have MANY errors 

-Paul

[Edited on 5-6-2004 by Paul manata] [/quote:9fae7572ff]


where is Bahnsen Teological Seminary and tell me what you think about it??


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## johnny_redeemed (May 6, 2004)

i am thinking about, almost certian, i am going to go to Westminister Calif.

You like John Frame?


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## johnny_redeemed (May 6, 2004)

What do you think of WTS??
what section is that post under?


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## johnny_redeemed (May 6, 2004)

[quote:4cb686fa46][i:4cb686fa46]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:4cb686fa46]
their infatuation with Kilne, and their law/gosple dichotomy[/quote:4cb686fa46]

what do you mean by this? i am not sure what some of those words are? i am not that &quot;smrt&quot;? :book:

[Edited on 5-6-2004 by johnny_redeemed]


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## FrozenChosen (May 6, 2004)

John 17

Primarily because the fact that our holy Lord Jesus Christ prayed for us. Sometimes it moves me to tears.

Watch out for those emotions!


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## johnny_redeemed (May 6, 2004)

[quote:21de0cb3f1]Watch out for those emotions![/quote:21de0cb3f1]

are you serious about this? if so why? i get very emotional about my faith. i love Jesus. love is an emotion?

uzzled:


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## SteelYankee (May 6, 2004)

*What about the Sheep?*

In John 10, Jesus says He is the Good Shepherd and He lay down His life for the Sheep. Later in that same chapter, He tells some Jews that the reason they don't believe is BECAUSE they are not His sheep. 

Think about that! They are NOT sheep, yet Jesus lay down His life for the sheep. Therefore, Jesus did not lay down His life for these &quot;goats.&quot; 

Does that necessarily follow?


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## Scott Bushey (May 6, 2004)

[quote:8f476817a6][i:8f476817a6]Originally posted by johnny_redeemed[/i:8f476817a6]
[quote:8f476817a6]Watch out for those emotions![/quote:8f476817a6]

are you serious about this? if so why? i get very emotional about my faith. i love Jesus. love is an emotion?

uzzled: [/quote:8f476817a6]

There is a difference between &quot;emotions&quot; and emotionalism.....


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## sastark (May 6, 2004)

My wife and I came across this little gem the other day:

1 Samuel 2:25
&quot;'If one man sins against another, God will judge him. But if a man sins against the LORD, who will intercede for him?' [b:b70eb3ffcc]Nevertheless they did not heed the voice of their father, because the LORD desired to kill them.[/b:b70eb3ffcc]&quot;

Another verse to show that God really doesn't love everyone!


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## johnny_redeemed (May 6, 2004)

[quote:ff58beb681]Another verse to show that God really doesn't love everyone![/quote:ff58beb681]

i am not sure i agree with this. i think God loves everyone, in some sense. it is loving to create them, it is loving that all deserve death, but we all do not die right away. then rain falls on the just and the unjust. i could be wrong about this. i am not sure. tell me what you guys/gals think


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## sastark (May 6, 2004)

[quote:5d1633ade7][i:5d1633ade7]Originally posted by johnny_redeemed[/i:5d1633ade7]

i am not sure i agree with this. i think God loves everyone, in some sense. it is loving to create them, it is loving that all deserve death, but we all do not die right away. then rain falls on the just and the unjust. i could be wrong about this. i am not sure. tell me what you guys/gals think  [/quote:5d1633ade7]

Well, I know God hated Esau.


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## panicbird (May 6, 2004)

God does not love all people in the same way. &quot;In the same way&quot; is key. Certainly, the rain falls on the just and the unjust. However, God's electing love does not fall upon everyone. God's Fatherly, loving discipline is not experienced by all.
Carson has a book on this: The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God. I have not read it, but have heard from reliable sources that it is excellent.

Hope this helps.

Lon


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## johnny_redeemed (May 6, 2004)

[quote:7cd7cb3db3][i:7cd7cb3db3]Originally posted by sastark[/i:7cd7cb3db3]

Well, I know God hated Esau. [/quote:7cd7cb3db3]


the Greek word in Romans 9:13 for hate &quot;miseo&quot; (mis-eh'-o) it means: to detest (especially to persecute); by extension, to love less. this word, as you can see, can mean loveless. i think God can, and does, have different types of love. i.e. a salvific love, a general love... i hate to use it but John 3:16 says God loved the world, and Jesus loved the rich young ruler how did not believe. some food for thought.


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## Scott Bushey (May 6, 2004)

Redeemed,
Actually the passage is from the old testament. Please do a thorough study on the Hebrew word; compare all the passages, you will in fact find that the word means just that,'hatred'.


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## johnny_redeemed (May 6, 2004)

Scott, i took a look at the Old Testament passage in the Hebrew. you are right it means to hate. please explain John 3:16 to me then. thank.


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## FrozenChosen (May 6, 2004)

[quote:3c24627ca7][i:3c24627ca7]Originally posted by johnny_redeemed[/i:3c24627ca7]
[quote:3c24627ca7]Watch out for those emotions![/quote:3c24627ca7]

are you serious about this? if so why? i get very emotional about my faith. i love Jesus. love is an emotion?

uzzled: [/quote:3c24627ca7]

Haha, no brother, I'm definitely just joking. As my forum name may suggesting, I enjoy the caricatures that people make of us. They're funny to me, because they're caricatures and not correct at all. The only caricatures I really get irritated about are caricatures of Calvinism, and that happens a lot.

Mr. Bushey hit the nail on the head.:thumbup: A lof of people on the outside of Reformed circles see our lack of emotional[i:3c24627ca7]ism[/i:3c24627ca7] as a lack of emotion. As most of us know, that is not the case.

I apologize for the confusion.


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## johnny_redeemed (May 6, 2004)

[quote:c0de112eab]I apologize for the confusion.[/quote:c0de112eab]


this is another characterization of us Calvinists, many say we only want to &quot;fight&quot; or &quot;argue&quot; or &quot;debate&quot;. but you just showed that to be wrong. you say sorry (if that is what you meant by apologize). that is cool :thumbup:


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## johnny_redeemed (May 6, 2004)

[quote:76e7dd8aea]For God SO LOVED the world that he sent His Son for those who are believing (i.e. the elect). [/quote:76e7dd8aea]

i agree with everything you said. :thumbup: i am a Calvinist. i know that only the elect will believe and thus be saved. but look at the way you &quot;reworded&quot; (and rightly so given the context) John 3:16, you still said loved the WORLD? that is the part that is troubling to me. remember this got started when a guy (sorry i forgot who) said that God does not love some people.


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## johnny_redeemed (May 6, 2004)

i am very leary about giving my name out? i would not mind emailing it to you. i will read that artical you sent and then comment on it. Cool thats.





~You can't run mr bananna out to the default. It stretches the page.

[Edited on 5-6-2004 by Scott Bushey]

[Edited on 5-6-2004 by johnny_redeemed]


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## johnny_redeemed (May 6, 2004)

why?


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## Scott Bushey (May 6, 2004)

Because it's board policy.

SPB


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## johnny_redeemed (May 7, 2004)

[quote:8630e021bc][i:8630e021bc]Originally posted by johnny_redeemed[/i:8630e021bc]
[quote:8630e021bc]For God SO LOVED the world that he sent His Son for those who are believing (i.e. the elect). [/quote:8630e021bc]

i agree with everything you said. :thumbup: i am a Calvinist. i know that only the elect will believe and thus be saved. but look at the way you &quot;reworded&quot; (and rightly so given the context) John 3:16, you still said loved the WORLD? that is the part that is troubling to me. remember this got started when a guy (sorry i forgot who) said that God does not love some people. [/quote:8630e021bc]

my name is Josh 


could someone, hopfully Joshua, respond to this?

[Edited on 5-11-2004 by johnny_redeemed]


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## Scott Bushey (May 7, 2004)

Here is the definition of &quot;world&quot;. 

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;


John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.


Peoples out of all parts of the world.............If God gave His Son for everyone, then why is not everyone saved? Christ is THE sacrifice. This sacrifice pays the penalty for whom? The elect or the world? For the elect! Well, if the word &quot;world&quot; in J 3:16 means just that, every single individual that has lived, then Christ has paid the penalty for them also, no? Salvation is not actuated by the receivers. Believing does not catalize salvation. Men believe because God comes to them, i.e. election, otherwise, one must embrace with universalistic ideas and arminianism. There is no way around this.

Also, I suggest doing a Google search on the word 'kosmos'. You will find excellent examples out there. The issue has been exhausted.

Pink does an excellent job here:
http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Sovereignty/appendix_03.htm



[Edited on 5-8-2004 by Scott Bushey]


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## johnny_redeemed (May 11, 2004)

[quote:db7f2bf023][i:db7f2bf023]Originally posted by joshua[/i:db7f2bf023]Josh,
I'm sorry. I've been out with my family all day and didn't have opportunity to respond. Scott took good care of it, though. Thanks Dr. Bushey! [/quote:db7f2bf023]

i do not think he did. he went too ther verse and showed that there the word world does not mean all men everywhere, but he did not in john 3:16. 

please show me in the context of john 3 that thw word worls should be limited.

please remember i am a clavinist. i agree with almost everything scott said. i know that God saves and we do not. i am talking about His love. i just want to see how in john 3 God's love should be limited.

[Edited on 5-11-2004 by johnny_redeemed]


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## johnny_redeemed (May 11, 2004)

why can't we say that God loved all of humanity that he gave His son so save some of them. i guess i just do not see the problem of saying God can love a person, in one sense, and yet not save them. 

i read what you wrote and was unconvinced that God only loves some. not all.

remember i am not saying God loves all in a salvation way. all i am saying is God loves all in a certain sense i.e. he shows them love by creating them, he loves them by letting rain fall on there crops.


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## Scott Bushey (May 11, 2004)

JR,
Did you take the time to read the Pink paper?


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## A_Wild_Boar (May 11, 2004)

Here it is from Pinks lesson.



==

The word &quot;kosmos,&quot; and its English equivalent &quot;world,&quot; is not used with a uniform significance in the New Testament. Very far from it. It is used in quite a number of different ways. Below we will refer to a few passages where this term occurs, suggesting a tentative definition in each case:

&quot;Kosmos&quot; is used of the Universe as a whole: Acts 17:24 - &quot;God that made the world and all things therein seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth.&quot;

&quot;Kosmos&quot; is used of the earth: John 13:1; Ephesians 1:4, etc., etc.- &quot;When Jesus knew that his hour was come that He should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved His own which were in the world He loved them unto the end.&quot; &quot;Depart out of this world&quot; signifies, leave this earth. &quot;According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world.&quot; This expression signifies, before the earth was founded-compare Job 38:4 etc.

&quot;Kosmos&quot; is used of the world-system: John 12:31 etc. &quot;Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the Prince of this world be cast out&quot;- compare Matthew 4:8 and 1 John 5:19, R. V.

&quot;Kosmos&quot; is used of the whole human race: Romans 3:19, etc.-&quot;Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.&quot;

&quot;Kosmos&quot; is used of humanity minus believers: John 15:18; Romans 3:6 &quot;If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you.&quot; Believers do not &quot;hate&quot; Christ, so that &quot;the world&quot; here must signify the world of unbelievers in contrast from believers who love Christ. &quot;God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world.&quot; Here is another passage where &quot;the world&quot; cannot mean &quot;you, me, and everybody,&quot; for believers will not be &quot;judged&quot; by God, see John 5:24. So that here, too, it must be the world of unbelievers which is in view.

&quot;Kosmos&quot; is used of Gentiles in contrast from Jews: Romans 11:12 etc. &quot;Now if the fall of them (Israel) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them (Israel) the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their (Israel's) fulness.&quot; Note how the first clause in italics is defined by the latter clause placed in italics. Here, again, &quot;the world&quot; cannot signify all humanity for it excludes Israel!

&quot;Kosmos&quot; is used of believers only: John 1:29; 3:16, 17; 6:33; 12:47; 1 Corinthians 4:9; 2 Corinthians 5:19. We leave our readers to turn to these passages, asking them to note, carefully, exactly what is said and predicated of &quot;the world&quot; in each place.


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