# Romans 2:6-13



## PaulMc (Sep 11, 2011)

It seems to be agreed on by most that the first two and a half chapters of Paul's epistle to the church at Rome is that "all the world may become guilty before God" (3v19), and that "we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin" (3v9).

Given that, how do verses 6-13 of chapter 2 fit in? 
Is it speaking of evangelical obedience (v.7 "patient continuance in well doing"), or in absolute terms of needing to be perfect in order to attain unto the righteousness of the law?

The second of these options makes most sense to me, fitting in with what I see as Paul showing the Jews that despite their many privileges, they were sinners along with the Gentiles, and that justification is not by the law, but rather, blessed is "the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works" (4v6).

Is this the correct interpretation?


----------



## Peairtach (Sep 11, 2011)

> Given that, how do verses 6-13 of chapter 2 fit in?
> Is it speaking of evangelical obedience (v.7 "patient continuance in well doing"), or in absolute terms of needing to be perfect in order to attain unto the righteousness of the law?
> 
> The second of these options makes most sense to me, fitting in with what I see as Paul showing the Jews that despite their many privileges, they were sinners along with the Gentiles, and that justification is not by the law, but rather, blessed is "the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works" (4v6).
> ...



It is this he is speaking about in vv 6-11


> Is it speaking of evangelical obedience (v.7 "patient continuance in well doing"),


Otherwise he'd be speaking hypothetically because since the Fall no man can have eternal life without being justified by faith, and there's no indication that vv 6-11 are hypothetical.

He later on shows that those whose lives, very imperfectly, are characterised by 


> patience in well-doing seek[ing] for glory and honor and immortality ......[and] everyone who does good (vv 7 and 10, ESV)


 are those who are also justified.



> For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. (vv 14-16)



This section (14-16) is not about converted Gentiles because they need to hear the message of salvation from the law (God's Word) in order to be saved, as he mentions later. He's just saying that even Gentiles without the Bible know the difference between right and wrong, and often show it, because of God's revelation to them because Man cannot efface the law of God that was written on his heart when he was created. There are other elements to this "general revelation" including the Holy Spirit working to convict the consciences of the as yet unsaved, the fact that Man is made in God's image of which the law or character of God written in his heart is a part, and the teaching about God that he receives from the creation surrounding him.

The Word of God/Bible is often called "special revelation" and is saving revelation. 

Of course in a biblical work like Romans we know that the author is not going to contradict himself because the Author that is inspiring him is the Holy Spirit.

But even looking at it from a human perspective, is it likely that Paul wouldn't notice and rectify a blatant and obvious contradiction in such a major work.


----------



## PaulMc (Sep 11, 2011)

Peairtach said:


> It is this he is speaking about in vv 6-11
> 
> 
> > Is it speaking of evangelical obedience (v.7 "patient continuance in well doing"),
> ...



Thank you for your reply.
I see a connection between Rom 2:13 "the doers of the law shall be justified" and Gal 2:12 "the man that doeth them shall live in them" (speaking of the law) - is the quote from Galatians not a hypothetical?

What do you make of Haldane on v7?:

"The verse before us, then, which declares that eternal life shall be awarded to those who seek it by _patient continuance in well-doing_, and who, according to the 10th verse, _work good_, both of which announce the full demand of the law, are of the same import with the 13th verse, which affirms that _the doers of the law shall be justified_. In all these verses the Apostle is referring to the law, and not, as is generally understood, to the Gospel. It would have been obviously calculated to mislead the Jews, with whom Paul was reasoning, to set before them in this place personal obedience as the way to eternal life, which, in connection with what he had said on repentance, would tend directly to lead them to mistake his meaning on the subject. But besides this, if these verses refer to the Gospel, they break in upon and disturb the whole train of his reasoning, from the 18th verse of the first chapter to the 20th of the third, where he arrives at his conclusion, that by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified in the sight of God. Paul was afterwards to declare the way of justification, as he does, ch iii. 21, 26, immediately after he drew the above conclusion; but till then, his object was to exhibit, both to Jews and Gentiles, the impossibility of obtaining justification by any works of their own, and, by convincing them of this, to lead them to the grace of the Gospel."


----------



## Contra_Mundum (Sep 11, 2011)

I conclude that the subject is a hypothetical obedience. It is the covenant-of-works motif, which is ingrained in the human psyche. A man scarcely needs special revelation in order to comprehend that "patient continuance in doing good" (if it were perfectly attainable) should result in honor, glory, and immortality. Whereas, for sinning, there is even for the heathen an awareness that wrath and judgment awaits the guilty.

There is an ineradicable sense of *justice* that men have, which shows that they understand that reward (or at least the absence of punishment) is the merit of good works. "Every man according to his deeds," v6, is how this law is understood. And men will often go to great lengths to try to prove their worthiness.

I think the after vv12-13 speak most clearly to the place where Paul is driving his hearer. Sinning--the inevitable situation for every man--results in condemnation, whether under the law of special revelation; or under the vestigial moral-law consciousness still found within the person, the work of the original law-righteousness written on the heart.


----------



## steadfast7 (Sep 11, 2011)

I think NT Wright believes this obedience to be the basis of our "second justification" in the last day.


----------



## Peairtach (Sep 11, 2011)

> I think NT Wright believes this obedience to be the basis of our "second justification" in the last day.



If God's justified us once why do we need it again? Christ was justified in His resurrection, and so will we, in the sense that we will be declared to be guiltless _before men_ in a way that we aren't now, although already, at conversion, having received our full justification as far as God and we are concerned (?) But this would be for another thread under FV/NPP.

Paul, I would take what my brother Bruce thinks on the Romans passage as more weighty than what I've said, particularly in the sense that it would be me more than him that would have done _much_ more limited study on the subject. Keep comparing commentators and testing everything by Scripture.


----------



## MW (Sep 11, 2011)

The term "every man" (each one) is general (compare verse 1). Verse 6 refers to the general judgment. It is true that those "under the law" are described, but not exclusively; there is also a description of those "without law." The Jew is first, but the Gentile follows. The apostle is referring to the general moral order which is imposed on man by creation. This order remains relevant in all man's moral states. It is on this general moral basis that the apostle builds his case for universal sin and depravity, and prepares the way for the gospel revelation of righteousness. It is not by by-passing the moral order and the demands of righteousness that any person is justified. In the setting forth of Jesus Christ all moral demands are fulfilled and all just judgements are satisfied. God is thereby shown to be just and the justifier of him that believes in Jesus.


----------

