# Benefits of vitamins?



## Pergamum (May 29, 2018)

I have been dismayed of late by several studies which seem to show no real benefit to vitamins. 

We live in a remote jungle post and we spend about 1,000 USD a year in supplements and vitamins since fresh food is sometimes hard to obtain. 

We only buy top vitamins because it seems sometimes the cheap Wal-mart varieties are low-quality and not well-tested.

My wife had a vitamin and mineral assay done at a laboratorium which showed low levels of several vitamins due to poor absorption due to leaky gut/autoimmune-type symptoms two years ago and we supplement in accordance with those deficiencies. 

We subscribe to a website review of vitamins that tests the contents to ensure quality and we buy only those recommended brands. 

We think vitamins have benefited us, but perhaps it is all imaginary.

Thoughts?


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## JTB.SDG (May 29, 2018)

My mom has tried multiple times to get me on vitamins. My wife started getting Flintstones; hook line and sinker. 

Not sure about the recent studies though. You said several? Can you get your bodies tested again to see if you're still deficient after having been taking them for a while?


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## Pergamum (May 30, 2018)

Yes, we are trying to get retested, but are hundreds of miles from any reasonable health services here. In October we will visit another island and try to get retested. We've had various bouts of fatigue over the past several years, but we also live in a remote jungle post and it is rainy season now and I trekked part of last week (involved hiking hours through mud), plus dealt with ministry issues which tire the mind. We have no AC or fan at night and it can be hot and our refrigeration failed so we were down to rehydrated meat and canned food for awhile. The environment is not conducive overall to health so we seek out extra helps and supplements.


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## Jeri Tanner (May 30, 2018)

A few years ago tests showed I was way low in vitamin D, took vitamin D3, and the follow-up tests showed my vitamin D level had come up to normal. Like you, I wanted to be sure I was using high-quality vitamins so bought them from my dr’s office.

Reactions: Like 1


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## OPC'n (May 30, 2018)

I think it depends on the quality. If they are of good quality, then I do think they are helpful

Reactions: Like 1


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## Scott Bushey (May 30, 2018)

Linus Pauling, two time Nobel prize winner concluded that most humans have a sub-level scurvy, which in fact is the culprit behind many maladies. I have been following his Vit C regimen for 8 years. I take about 30 gram of lypospheric VC daily. Everyone should be doing this. As well, vitamin D and Magnesium. 

Most health professionals are now testing for VD deficiency.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## Edward (May 30, 2018)

@Pergamum

Vitamin supplements are unnecessary for folks with normal body processes who eat a healthy, well balanced diet. 

Since that doesn't apply to your situation, I'd probably stay with the supplements. 

In the US, vitamins are oversold and a waste of money for most folks. You'll usually find me on the other side on these supplement/naturopathic threads. But you aren't exactly living the American middle class lifestyle. And, even here, there's scientific evidence of the benefits of curcumin (tumeric).

Reactions: Like 2


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## Edward (May 30, 2018)

Scott Bushey said:


> Most health professionals are now testing for VD deficiency.



I think most folks want a VD deficiency.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 8


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## Steve Curtis (May 30, 2018)

Edward said:


> I think *most* folks want a VD deficiency.



Gotta wonder 'bout those that don't!


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## sc_q_jayce (May 30, 2018)

I echo Edward's thoughts. Vitamin supplements are suitable mainly when you are already in a situation where you are deficient. Where you already have a suitable amount in your body, taking anything extra will mean you have some very fancy urine!

That said, if you have actual vitamin deficiencies, then by all means take supplements!



Scott Bushey said:


> Linus Pauling, two time Nobel prize winner concluded that most humans have a sub-level scurvy, which in fact is the culprit behind many maladies. I have been following his Vit C regimen for 8 years. I take about 30 gram of lypospheric VC daily. Everyone should be doing this. As well, vitamin D and Magnesium.
> 
> Most health professionals are now testing for VD deficiency.



Linus Pauling was a great chemist for many things, but unfortunately his shtick on Vitamin C was a total miss. Even the Linus Pauling Institute has ratcheted it back significantly and has toned down the Vitamin C rhetoric down compared to what Pauling was parroting.


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## Von (May 30, 2018)

I agree with Edward. Hypervitaminosis is a big problem in first world-settings. Kidney-stones due to too much Vitamin C, stomach problems due to too much Zinc (I know it's not a vitamin...), Skin problems due to too much vitamin B12, etc, etc. 
In vitamin-deficient settings, it is one of the 'miracles' of modern medicine, and obviously in certain groups of people you need to watch out for specific deficiencies (eg old people, alcoholics and Vit B12). Vitamin D deficiency is especially a big problem in areas with little sunshine throughout the year. Scurvy as someone mentioned, can also be caused by a sudden withdrawal of higher than normal doses of vitamin C.
Anyway, so there is not a one-answer-fits-all of whether vitamins have benefited us. As with many things in life, it depends.


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## LilyG (May 30, 2018)

A little breakdown on the details of these studies shows that their conclusions are... pretty silly:

www.marksdailyapple.com/are-supplements-useless/

Reactions: Like 1


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## sc_q_jayce (May 30, 2018)

LilyG said:


> A little breakdown on the details of these studies shows that their conclusions are... pretty silly:
> 
> www.marksdailyapple.com/are-supplements-useless/



Mark is correct in the first sentence or so: 

"You know, I actually have no beef with the title of the editorial. People absolutely should not be wasting money on mineral and vitamin supplements they don’t need. That’s just common sense."​
Mark is incorrect at this point and creates a strawman that the authors of the editorial never made:

"Where we differ is how to define a wasteful supplement. *They think all supplements qualify. I don’t*. You can find plenty of evidence showing that supplementation of certain nutrients is unhelpful, harmful, or barely helpful in nutrient-replete, healthy populations. You can find plenty of evidence showing that smart supplementation of certain nutrients is extremely helpful or even life-saving in other groups. So-called skeptics love pointing to the former as resounding evidence that supplementation is pointless for everyone."​
From the source article: 

"*Although available evidence does not rule out small benefits or harms or large benefits or harms in a small subgroup of the population*, we believe that the case is closed— supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults with (most) mineral or vitamin supplements has no clear benefit and might even be harmful. These vitamins should not be used for chronic disease prevention. Enough is enough."​
The editorial clearly states that there are populations where supplements are important. The editorial clearly states that most supplements adults take have no clear benefit provided they are "well-nourished."


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## Scott Bushey (May 30, 2018)

Eastern medicine would fall under supplementation. Given that it is a 2nd century discipline and it has stood the test of time, I prefer to trust it better than conventional medicine that is 200+ years old.

As far as the previous posts go, those opinions on VC are no more solid than what I have posited. I can find many studies showing the efficacy of supplementation as those fighting tooth and nail against it. I work in the medical industry and I can tell u firsthand, if u have to be hospitalized, be very concerned. *I used to be a chart Nazi for Cleveland Clinic.


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## Scott Bushey (May 30, 2018)

sc_q_jayce said:


> taking anything extra will mean you have some very fancy urine!



Not necessarily. Consider IV and lyposheric intake. the uptake is much greater; so there are ways to take supplements so the uptake is greatly enhanced.



sc_q_jayce said:


> Linus Pauling was a great chemist for many things, but unfortunately his shtick on Vitamin C was a total miss.



U say so.....I will stick with what has worked well for me. 30 grams per day for 8 years. The LPI has sold out under pressure from the FDA and funding groups. Spineless.



sc_q_jayce said:


> "You know, I actually have no beef with the title of the editorial. People absolutely should not be wasting money on mineral and vitamin supplements they don’t need. That’s just common sense."



Mark is a caveman-He is Paleo. The thinking is, if u eat correctly, something that most do not do, u should be able to get all your supplementation from real food. His motto: 'JERF'. Just Eat real Food!



Von said:


> I agree with Edward. Hypervitaminosis is a big problem in first world-settings. Kidney-stones due to too much Vitamin C



False.

http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v09n05.shtml

http://www.kidneycoach.com/692/cause-of-kidney-stones-vitamin-c-good-for-kidney-disease/

http://vitaminc.foundation/forum/search.php?keywords=kidney+stones


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## moral necessity (May 30, 2018)

sc_q_jayce said:


> Mark is correct in the first sentence or so:
> 
> "You know, I actually have no beef with the title of the editorial. People absolutely should not be wasting money on mineral and vitamin supplements they don’t need. That’s just common sense."​
> Mark is incorrect at this point and creates a strawman that the authors of the editorial never made:
> ...


Just a brief read over the comments following the article will reveal that several in the medical community had a problem with the article as well. Yes, there are some medical opinions to the contrary. But, the others should have fair representation too.

Blessings!


Irvine Mason, MD
Neurology and Pain Management of the Palm Beaches
December 19, 2013
Enough is Enough

This letter is in response to your recent editorial stating there was no benefit from taking vitamins or mineral supplements. The authors purported their opinions were as facts. They stated that most supplements “do not prevent chronic disease or death, and they should be avoided.”

The authors totally disregarded the best and most comprehensive study to date, The physicians healthy study II published in the American Medical Association, November 2, 2012. That study followed nearly 15,000 male doctors older than 50 for up to 13 years. The study revealed that men taking centrum silver multivitamin alone reduced the risk of cancer by over 8% from any source except prostate. I quote from the above study, “recent studies have looked at vitamins such as B, C, E and whether they can prevent cancer. They didn’t come up with any significant results, and some found a higher risk of certain illnesses. The researchers state that those studies were limited in scope and size. They also used single supplements at high doses, compared to how much a daily vitamin provides.”

The physicians health study II is the only large scale, randomized double blind, placebo-controlled trial testing the long term effects of common multi-vitamins.

If the authors are correct in their assumptions then every ophthalmologist in the free world who prescribes anti-oxidant vitamins with lutein to treat macular-degeneration is wrong. If the authors are correct then every OB/GYN in the free world who prescribe prenatal vitamins to prevent spina-bifida, meningomylocele and other neural-tube defects in the neonate are wrong. This regimen is factual and proven. If the authors are correct the the vast majority of urologists that prescribe time release vitamin C to their patients for recurrent UTI’s are wrong. This protocol obviates the need for chronic antibiotic use, which creates drug resisitant bacterial strains. Bacteria have a very difficult time living in a acid environment ergo the vitamin C.

If the authors are correct then another excellent study dated May 20, 2013 out of Oxford University is wrong. “…the subject of the latest research study showed that vitamin B (B6, B12, folic acid) is the first and only disease-modifying treatment that worked”. The study stated, “we have proven the concept that you can modify the disease”. The study showed that there was slowing of atrophy of the gray matter in the brain effected by Alzheimer’s disease.

This was a doubleblinded study of two years of duration which, discovered that the brain shrinkage slowed by 30%, and in some cases brain shrinkage slowed by more than 50%.

How do you know that your antioxidant vitamins are working? Your hair and nails will grow at a very rapid rate. Rapid cell turnover is what your body needs; it prevents GI cancers, which are activated by cell stagnation. Also rapid turnover of skin cells help prevent skin cancers.

I recommend to the authors that they be thought a fool rather than to put it in print and remove all doubt. I recommend to the patients that if they find a doctor who states that one receives all the vitamins and minerals from the food they eat, they should find another doctor.

Enough is enough!!!

Irvine Mason, M.D.
Board Certified Neurologist
IM/lm


*Conflict of Interest:* Principal Investigator Age-Related Eye Disease Study (AREDS) Past consultant to Pfizer regarding Age-Related Macular Degeneration

Blinded by erudition?

The authors of “Enough is enough” (1) declare that vitamin and mineral supplementation in well-nourished adults is pointless in the prevention of “chronic disease.” They neglect to mention the favorable effect that daily multi-vitamins and minerals have on cataract formation as demonstrated a large randomized controlled trial by Physicians Health Study (PHS) II (2). More importantly, they make no mention of the effectiveness of vitamin and mineral supplementation in the prevention of severe visual loss and blindness from age-related macular degeneration, (3,4) a common chronic disease of considerable importance.

Blindness is a most feared disability and is linked strongly to increased mortality, rates of hospitalization, and length of hospital stays. Despite its impact on a patient’s well-being, blindness is often omitted from the problem list during hospital stays(5). It is not so surprising then that one of the principal reasons for vitamin supplementation among older adults, ocular health, was omitted from their editorial.

As a Principal Investigator in both the original Age-Related Eye Disease Study (AREDS) and for the follow-up trial AREDS II, I have seen the role of supplements for the prevention of visual loss in age-related macular degeneration become well established. Unfortunately, these authors were apparently oblivious to needs of patients afflicted with AMD, the most common cause of blindness in adult Americans.

1. Guallar E, Stranges S, Mulrow C, Appei LJ, Miller ER III. Enough is enough: Stop wasting money on vitamin and mineral supplements. Ann Intern Med. 2013; 159:850-851.
2. Christen WG, Glynn RJ, Manson JE, Macfadyen J, Bubes V, Schvartz M, Buring JE, Sesso HD, Michael Gaziano J. A Multivitamin Supplement and Cataract and Age-Related Macular Degeneration in a Randomized Trial of Male Physicians. Ophthalmology. 2013; Nov 20. pii: S0161-6420(13)00883-X. doi: 10.1016/j.ophtha.2013.09.038. [Epub ahead of print]
3. The Age-Related Eye Disease Study Research Group: A randomized, placebo-controlled, clinical trial of high-dose supplementation with vitamins C and E, beta carotene, and zinc for age-related macular degeneration and vision loss. AREDS Report #8. Arch Ophthal. 2001;119:1417-1436.
4. Age-Related Eye Disease Study 2 Research Group. Lutein + zeaxanthin and omega-3 fatty acids for age-related macular degeneration: the Age-Related Eye Disease Study 2 (AREDS2) randomized clinical trial. JAMA. 2013; 15; 309(19):2005-2015.
5. Crewe JM, Morlet N, Morgan WH, Spilsbury K, Mukhtar AS, Clark A, Semmens JB. Mortality and hospital morbidity of working-age blind. Br J Ophthalmol. 2013; 97(12):1579-1585.

Principal Investigator Age-Related Eye Disease Study (AREDS)
Principal Investigator AREDS 2
Past consultant to Pfizer regarding Age-Related Macular Degeneration


Balz Frei, PhD, Bruce N. Ames, PhD, Jeffrey Blumberg, PhD, Walter C. Willett, MD
Oregon State Universtiy
February 6, 2014

Enough is enough: Time to consider all the data and avoid sweeping conclusions about vitamin and mineral supplements

In their editorial, Guallar et al. concluded “the case is closed––supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults with (most) mineral or vitamin supplements has no clear benefit and might even be harmful” (1). However, the authors ignored decades of nutrition research and diet monitoring of the U.S. population to reach this misleading conclusion.

While a well-balanced diet is the best way to get one’s essential nutrients (except vitamin D), very few people in the U.S. follow the Dietary Guidelines for Americans. Consequently, most Americans are not “well-nourished” and fall short of meeting the recommendations by the Institute of Medicine for the dietary intake of all vitamins and essential minerals: Over 93% of U.S. adults do not get the Estimated Average Requirement of vitamins D and E from their diet, including enriched and fortified foods; 61% for magnesium; and ~50% for vitamin A and calcium (2). Further, 98% and 71%, respectively, do not meet the Adequate Intake of potassium and vitamin K (2). Many of these percentages are even higher among subpopulations with increased micronutrient needs, including older adults, African-Americans, and the obese. Conversely, people taking a daily multivitamin/mineral supplement (MVM) formulated at about the Daily Value do fill many of these nutritional gaps effectively, safely, and at low cost: a high-quality MVM costs as little as 3 cents a day (https://www.consumerlab.com/) and long-term MVM use is not associated with any adverse health effects (2, 3).

Guallar et al. state that “β-carotene, vitamin E, and possibly high doses of vitamin A supplements increase mortality” (1). Only ~0.1% of U.S. adults exceed the Tolerable Upper Intake Level of vitamin E due to high-dose supplement use, and ~1.1% exceed the UL of vitamin A (2). It is well-known that vitamin A should not be chronically consumed in amounts exceeding the UL because it may cause hypervitaminosis A and birth defects, and smokers should avoid β-carotene supplements because of an increased risk of lung cancer. The meta-analysis of RCTs reporting that high-dose vitamin E supplements increase mortality (1) has been refuted by several, more comprehensive meta-analyses (e.g., 4).

The known biological functions of micronutrients are to maintain normal cell and tissue function, metabolism, growth, and development, e.g., by serving as essential cofactors or structural components of thousands of enzymes and other biomolecules. For example, vitamins A and D, iron, and zinc play critical roles in both innate and adaptive immunity, and folate is required for normal neurological development. An MVM containing folic acid dramatically reduces the risk of neural tube defects and is recommended for women of childbearing age.

MVMs also may help lower chronic disease risk. The largest and longest RCT of an MVM conducted to date, the Physicians’ Health Study II, found a significant 8% reduction in total cancer incidence in male physicians (12% when excluding prostate cancer) and a significant 9% and 13% reduction, respectively, in total and nuclear cataract (3). These findings are consistent with several other RCTs and are even more impressive given that conventional RCT designs have limited ability to reveal benefits of nutrients––in contrast to drugs––for chronic diseases (5).

Therefore, taking a daily MVM not only helps fill known nutritional gaps in the diet of most Americans, thereby assuring normal body function and supporting good health, but may also have the added benefit of helping to reduce the risk of some chronic diseases. To call “the case…closed,” deny the value of further research, and label MVMs useless, harmful, and a waste of money (1) is wrong, not based on the established science for their primary indication, and misinforms both the public and the medical community.

References
1. Guallar E, Stranges S, Mulrow C, Appel LJ, Miller ER III. Enough is enough: Stop wasting money on vitamin and mineral supplements. Ann Intern Med. 2013;159:850-1.
2. Fulgoni VL III, Keast DR, Bailey RL, Dwyer J. Foods, fortificants, and supplements: Where do Americans get their nutrients? J Nutr. 2011;141:1847-54.
3. Gaziano JM, Sesso HD, Christen WG, Bubes V, Smith JP, MacFadyen J, et al. Multivitamins in the prevention of cancer in men. The Physicians' Health Study II Randomized Controlled Trial. JAMA. 2012;308:1871-80.
4. Abner EL, Schmitt FA, Mendiondo MS, Marcum JL, Kryscio RJ. Vitamin E and all-cause mortality: a meta-analysis. Curr Aging Sci. 2011;4:158-70.
5. Blumberg J, Heaney RP, Huncharek M, Scholl T, Stampfer M, Vieth R, et al. Evidence-based criteria in the nutritional context. Nutr Rev. 2010;68:478-84.
 

Suzan L Carmichael, PhD, Carl L Keen, PhD
Stanford University (SC) and University of California, Davis (CK)
March 7, 2014

Enough is Enough – What About Women of Reproductive Age?

We are concerned that the recent editorial “Enough is Enough: Stop Wasting Money on Vitamin and Mineral Supplements” (1) will give the wrong message to a substantial portion of the population – namely, women who are expecting a child or are planning to become pregnant.

The article states, “Although available evidence does not rule out small benefits or harms or large benefits or harms in a small subgroup of the population, we believe that the case is closed – supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults with (most) mineral or vitamin supplements has no clear benefit and might even be harmful.”

In the U.S., women of reproductive age (e.g., 15-44 years) comprise about 24% of the adult population, and 45% of female adults. We hope that the recent commentary will not detract from supplement use in this vulnerable – and substantial – part of the population. Supplement use is particularly important for women “at-risk” of becoming pregnant – i.e., before they become pregnant. Good pre-pregnancy nutritional status is important since over half of all pregnancies are unplanned, and most birth defects occur in the first several weeks of pregnancy, before many women even realize they are pregnant.

The Public Health Service, including the Surgeon General, CDC and FDA (2), and the National Academy of Sciences (3) recommend that women at risk of becoming pregnant take a multivitamin/mineral supplement that contains at least 400 µg of folic acid, primarily to prevent neural tube defects. Supplement use has also been associated with reduced risk of other birth defects and adverse reproductive outcomes. The Teratology Society reiterates its support for the daily intake of vitamin and mineral supplements for women of childbearing age (4).

Suzan L. Carmichael, PhD,1 Carl L. Keen, PhD2
1 Department of Pediatrics, Stanford University
2 Department of Nutrition, University of California, Davis

This comment has been approved by the full Public Affairs Committee and by the Council of the Teratology Society.

References:
1. Guallar E, Stranges S, Mulrow C, Appel LJ, Miller ER. Enough is enough: stop wasting money on vitamin and mineral supplements. Ann Int Med 159:850-851.
2. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Recommendations for use of folic acid to reduce number of spina bifida cases and other neural tube defects. JAMA 1993; 269:1233, 1236-1238.
3. Institute of Medicine (US) Standing Committee on the Scientific Evaluation of Dietary Reference Intakes and its Panel on Folate, Other B Vitamins, and Choline. Dietary Reference Intakes for Thiamin, Riboflavin, Niacin, Vitamin B6, Folate, Vitamin B12, Pantothenic Acid, Biotin, and Choline., Washington (DC): National Academies Press (US); 1998.
4. Holmes L, Harris J, Oakley GP Jr, Friedman JM. Teratology Society Consensus Statement on use of folic acid to reduce the risk of birth defects. 1997;55:381.


Edward RB McCabe, MD, PhD, Coleen Boyle, PhD, MSHyg
Senior Vice President and Chief Medical Officer, March of Dimes Foundation and Director, National Center for Birth Defects and Developmental Disabilities, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

March 28, 2014

Enough Is Not Enough for Folic Acid in Women of Childbearing Age

Guallar et al. (1), in their editorial, “Enough Is Enough: Stop Wasting Money on Vitamin and Mineral Supplements,” reviewed three related articles and came to the conclusion their title expressed succinctly. But enough is not enough when it comes to ensuring all women of childbearing age (WCBA) receive sufficient folic acid to prevent neural tube defects (NTDs) in their offspring.

The authors indicate the possibility of benefits “in a small subgroup of the population” (1). The cohort of WCBA (18-44 years) is large; 56 million in 2012.

Failure of the neural tube to close during embryonic development results in NTDs, including spina bifida and anencephaly. Infants with spina bifida have varying levels of paralysis resulting in life-long disabilities, and those with anencephaly generally die shortly after birth. Studies, including randomized, controlled trials, have shown that periconceptional intake of folic acid in adequate amounts prevents NTDs, with observational studies suggesting it might prevent over 50% of NTDs. Since 1998, the Institute of Medicine recommended that to prevent NTDs, WCBA should consume at least 400µg/day of folic acid from dietary supplements or fortified foods, in addition to eating a healthy diet containing natural folates. (2)

In 1995-96, prior to mandatory folic acid fortification of cereal grain flour in the U.S., approximately 4,000 pregnancies were affected with an NTD. This number fell to 3,000 pregnancies for 1999-2000 after fortification (3). Therefore, while NTD reduction has been observed with fortification, important subpopulations of women require more folic acid due to their medical conditions or medications (e.g., treatment with folic acid antagonists), obesity, Hispanic ethnicity, or specific genetic factors (4).

Considerable work needs to be done to promote adequate folic acid supplementation for specific high risk groups to prevent NTDs. For example, the risk of birth defects associated with pregestational diabetes might be reduced by folic acid supplementation (5), and targeting folic acid supplement education efforts to women with pregestational diabetes could be an important prevention strategy.

Guallar et al. (1) stated, “we believe the case is closed – supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults with (most) mineral or vitamin supplements has no clear benefit and might even be harmful.” Such a statement may discourage WCBA from consuming adequate folic acid and may lead to babies born unnecessarily with NTDS. The case is most definitely not closed for these women and their offspring, especially for those groups at the highest risk of NTDs.

References
1. Guallar E, Stranges S, Mulrow C. Enough is enough: stop wasting money on vitamin and mineral supplements. Ann Intern Med. 2013;159:850-1.
2. Institute of Medicine. Dietary reference intakes for thiamin, riboflavin, niacin, vitamin B6, folate, vitamin B12, pantothenic acid, biotin, and choline. Washington, DC: National Academy Press, 1998.
3. CDC. Spina Bifida and anencephaly before and after folic acid mandate – United States, 1995-1996 and 1999-2000. MMWR. 2004;53:362-5.
4. Kennedy D, Koren G. Identifying women who might benefit from higher doses of folic acid in pregnancy. Can Fam Physician. 2012 Apr;58(4):394-7.
5. Correa A, Gilboa SM, Botto LD, Moore CA, Hobbs CA, Cleves MA, Riehle-Colarusso TJ, Waller DK, Reece EA; National Birth Defects Prevention Study. Lack of periconceptional vitamins or supplements that contain folic acid and diabetes mellitus-associated birth defects. Am J Obstet Gynecol. 2012 Mar;206(3):218.e1-13.


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## LilyG (May 30, 2018)

sc_q_jayce said:


> Mark is correct in the first sentence or so:
> 
> "You know, I actually have no beef with the title of the editorial. People absolutely should not be wasting money on mineral and vitamin supplements they don’t need. That’s just common sense."​
> Mark is incorrect at this point and creates a strawman that the authors of the editorial never made:
> ...



One of the problems Sisson had with the article is the population (of doctors) studied, and then the results (although inconsistent even so, as *moral necessity* pointed out) applied in a blanket statement about the majority of the American population.

So Mark is right. Taking a small puzzle piece and applying it to a whole population is not good science. In fact, no, they don't "clearly state" that some populations benefit. They merely "don't rule it out." In fact they seem to rush then to their sweeping conclusion that "the case is closed" for the general population.


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## LilyG (May 30, 2018)

moral necessity said:


> Just a brief read over the comments following the article will reveal that several in the medical community had a problem with the article as well. Yes, there are some medical opinions to the contrary. But, the others should have fair representation too.
> 
> Blessings!
> 
> ...



Fascinating!


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## Scott Bushey (May 30, 2018)

LilyG said:


> One of the problems Sisson had with the article is the population (of doctors) studied, and then the results (although inconsistent even so, as moralnecessity pointed out) applied in a blanket statement about the majority of the American population.
> 
> So Mark is right. Taking a small puzzle piece and applying it to a whole population is not good science. In fact, no, they don't "clearly state" that some populations benefit. They merely "don't rule it out." In fact they seem to rush then to their sweeping conclusion that "the case is closed" for the general population.



In fact, the whole Ansel Keys study on fats was a small segment of the population and was a cooked study and look what that did to our culture, i.e. statins and fats cause cardiac disease. so much for science. many studies are biased and funded by the pharmaceutical companies.


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## arapahoepark (May 30, 2018)

Edward said:


> @Pergamum
> 
> Vitamin supplements are unnecessary for folks with normal body processes who eat a healthy, well balanced diet.
> 
> ...


My sister had to do a paper on vitamins and this was basically her thesis.


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## bookslover (May 30, 2018)

Pergamum, keep in mind that some of the stresses you're under and the climate and poor living conditions you're in may not be helped by vitamins. Vitamins are only good for the specific things vitamins are good for. You may have to seek other kinds of treatment to fit the physical situation you're in.


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## Edward (May 30, 2018)

Take Vitamin K, for example. If one needs help with clotting, Vitamin K might prove helpful. If one has problems with clotting, Vitamin K might prove very harmful. And if one has neither, extra doses of Vitamin K would be a waste of money. 

And Vitamin D - if you don't get much sunshine and don't drink enriched milk, Vitamin D supplements might be helpful. Excessive Vitamin D can be toxic. 

And finally, a comment about pain doctors. I don't know anything about the guy mentioned, and this comment certainly isn't directed at him, but I will say that many pain doctors are drug pushers who sell prescriptions to addicts.


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## Pergamum (May 30, 2018)

Great thread. 

Thanks Scott for bringing up Ansel Keys and his faulty fat theory. The USDA and the Food Pyramid has been making the US population unhealthy for decades now. They demonized eggs and butter and meat at various times when, all along, if we worked and ate like a farmer, we'd all have been much healthier. When I think the FDA ought to regulate vitamins to make them prove efficacy, I am reminded of the disastrous job our government has done with dietary requirements and I repent of such thoughts. 

The US seems focused on a "disease-focused model" without regard to prevention or side-effects. They often prescribe meds which do more long-term harm than good when a change in diet and lifestyle is sufficient. Take the over-prescription of statins, for instance.

Also, I do believe MANY vitamins are, indeed, useless. Vitamin C tablets do not often get absorbed and so, like Scott said, there is a need to do injection or take a lipospheric blend so it can be absorbed. 

We did Vit C in large dosages by IV in the US because we actually had heavy metal poisoning from drinking rain water off our roof for years in the jungle. Our symptoms slowly improved. The IV Vitamin C draws out the heavy metals and would send us into shakes ("Herchsheimer's Reactions"?).

More about our situation: We've had giardia and dystentery several times and the harsh meds we used to treat them killed a lot of our good flora in our gut. Studies are now coming out that state that a large percentage of our immune system is found in our gut and the medical community finally labeled the mesothelium its own body part two years ago.

We were low on DHEA (me, for lack of sleep), and Magnesum (which made my legs twitch at night and impeded sleep). My wife was low on Bs and she even took vitamins so she switched to a "methylated" blend, which smells awful, but brought up her levels and her energy. I also take krill and omega oils which helped my cholesterol a bit (it was not high overall but the good and bad HDL and LDL numbers were off).

We continue to take a lot of vitamins and spend about 1,000 USD a year. Our level of work is probably much higher than the average American's and our diet probably much worse except maybe for poor populations. I remember the huge burst of energy I experienced in 2014 after 4.5 years in the jungle and how great I felt for the first few months in America after living here.

I am 43 now and still run and hike a lot and can still lift heavy. I am heavy at about 220 pounds but this is my normal size since adulthood and, as many have said, I am built like a brick outhouse. I get mentally tired at 2pm sometimes when stressed and sometimes cannot take the tropical heat like I used to and get tired after working in it. I just took a 2 week vacation to swim and scuba dive in the ocean with my son and felt great afterwards except for tooth problems....I've had long-standing dental problems due to lack of care here in the Third World.


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## Edward (May 30, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> I get mentally tired at 2pm sometimes when stressed and sometimes cannot take the tropical heat like I used to



Many years ago, when I took a vacation to the tropical jungles of southern Mexico to help build a concrete roof, I came to appreciate the local custom of siesta in the heat of the afternoon. Work until a late lunch, take a couple of hours siesta, wash off, then work until dusk when it was time for a late supper.


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## Pergamum (May 30, 2018)

Edward said:


> Many years ago, when I took a vacation to the tropical jungles of southern Mexico to help build a concrete roof, I came to appreciate the local custom of siesta in the heat of the afternoon. Work until a late lunch, take a couple of hours siesta, wash off, then work until dusk when it was time for a late supper.


Yes, we try to siesta. But this makes me unable to sleep at night. I also usually cannot sleep at mid-day either due to swimming in a pool of my own sweat. Also, at night, when the kids go to bed and all is quiet and the air is cooler it is like I get a second-wind and this makes it harder to sleep. Truthfully also, the ministry problems and sick people/incompleted tasks/demands seem to worm their way into my mind at night and prevent sleep. So much of it is mental.


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## Ask Mr. Religion (May 31, 2018)

Have you tried melatonin as an occasional sleep supplement?


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## Pergamum (May 31, 2018)

I took melatonin for awhile with minimal effect, but then read long-term studies that showed melatonin levels built up in the livers of some people after taking it for awhile, so I stopped. With malaria being so common here, we try not to make our livers work extra.


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## Von (May 31, 2018)

Ask Mr. Religion said:


> Have you tried melatonin as an occasional sleep supplement?


Preferably not under 65 years of age.


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## Von (May 31, 2018)

Brand new study came out this week (publishing date 5 June 2018). Meta-analysis looking at cardiovascular outcomes (heart attacks, strokes, etc) as well as all-cause mortality (dying in general) related to vitamin-intake.

I haven't had time to go through it in-depth, but conclusion is: some benefit, some harm, no effect in general.
Just thought it could add to the conversation...


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## sc_q_jayce (May 31, 2018)

moral necessity said:


> Comments from the editorial



Not sure why you only quoted the comments that spoke negatively about the article and didn't include comments from Fargnoli et. al, and the original author's response to the comments.


> Irvine Mason's Comment



Not sure why Mason would say the authors disregarded the PHSII Study since they literally reference it in the second paragraph. In addition, in the paper he referenced by Mason (JAMA. 2012; 308(18):1871-1880) shows that the decrease in cancer has a hazard ratio of 0.92 with a CI 95% that goes up to 0.998 / P =0.04. Relying on this data to say that it's a "modest reduction" is a stretch as physicians who don't think about statistics much might say "Oh, well the P value is less than 0.05, so therefore it must be statistically significant." Unfortunately, that's as true as a scientist saying "my calibration curve has a coefficient of determination of 0.999 so therefore my curve is linear!" That's not how a P value is used and being confident about a 8% reduction when the uncertainty can say that it could also be 0.002% reduction with a 95% confidence interval is showing Mason's ignorance of statistical analysis.

Then Mason proceeds to ad hominem the editorial's authors by creating strawman arguments that the editors did not make. What about an UTI is routine? What about macular-degeneration is considered to be routine? Again, the authors say *"Evidence is sufficient to advise against routine supplementation, and we should translate null and negative findings into action." *Citing specific examples of disease and/or pregnancy is hardly considered to fit what the authors are saying. It seems to me that Mason is being disingenuous here and sadly doesn't know how to read articles.



> Comment by Thomas Friberg



You've got to be kidding me. The cataracts statistics includes a Hazard Ratio of 0.91 with a Confidence Interval at 95% to be 0.83-0.99, P = 0.04. This is literally the same issue with the above comment. An 8 % interval on either side doesn't make this result very "significant" at all. Same issues with the P value apply. Friberg completely overstates his case.

Why would Friberg cite his own study that uses a population already diagnosed with illness such as macular degeneration or drusen? This study would have nothing to do with "routine" supplements for healthy individuals, which was the point of PHS II. Friberg is comparing apples to oranges here. Then he goes on a fear-induced rant about how scary blindness is as if fear is a good reason to make choices.



> Letter from Balz Frei, PhD, Bruce N. Ames, PhD, Jeffrey Blumberg, PhD, Walter C. Willett, MD


 I don't think I need to reply to this since the original authors took them to task very well in addition to addressing Friberg and Mason.

All in all, the comments are very disappointing and you should read the defenses just as much as you read the critiques of the papers.


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## sc_q_jayce (May 31, 2018)

Scott Bushey said:


> Not necessarily. Consider IV and lyposheric intake. the uptake is much greater; so there are ways to take supplements so the uptake is greatly enhanced.


 Indeed there are ways. The effect is still minimal to negligible. And you should be aware that things in blood can still go to your urine.



> U say so.....I will stick with what has worked well for me. 30 grams per day for 8 years. The LPI has sold out under pressure from the FDA and funding groups. Spineless.


 I don't say so. I sourced the Linus Pauling Institute. Why would you ad hominem an agency when you haven't even engaged with their source material? You're citing your own anecdotal story as counterevidence?



> Mark is a caveman-He is Paleo. The thinking is, if u eat correctly, something that most do not do, u should be able to get all your supplementation from real food. His motto: 'JERF'. Just Eat real Food!



Indeed. And the studies that we have been citing are talking about those who do not lack vitamin deficiencies. So where has anyone stated that if you have a vitamin deficiency you shouldn't take vitamins? This is another strawman argument that Mark also has not made. Why are you impugning such things on Mark? I disagree with Mark in many things, but at least you should be engaging what he actually wrote instead of making something up.

And don't get me started on Eastern Medicine unless you also want to believe the entire system that goes with it?


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## Scott Bushey (May 31, 2018)

sc_q_jayce said:


> The effect is still minimal to negligible.



As per University of oregon study:

"Depletion-repletion pharmacokinetic experiments demonstrated that plasma vitamin C concentration is tightly controlled by three primary mechanisms: intestinal absorption, tissue transport, and renal reabsorption (6). In response to increasing oral doses of vitamin C, plasma vitamin C concentration rises steeply at doses between 30 and 100 mg/day and reaches a steady-state concentration (60 to 80 μmol/L) at doses of 200 to 400 mg/day in healthy young adults (7, 8). One hundred percent absorption efficiency is observed when ingesting vitamin C at doses up to 200 mg at a time. Once plasma ascorbic acid levels reach saturation, additional vitamin C is largely excreted in the urine. Notably, intravenous administration of vitamin C bypasses absorptive control in the intestine such that very high concentrations of ascorbic acid can be achieved in the plasma; over time, renal excretion restores vitamin C to baseline plasma levels (9) (see Cancer Treatment)."




sc_q_jayce said:


> I don't say so. I sourced the Linus Pauling Institute. Why would you ad hominem an agency when you haven't even engaged with their source material? You're citing your own anecdotal story as counterevidence?



Why would I throw a stone at the LPI, because of their spineless tactic of submitting to peer pressure. I've read much of their source material years ago and believe they turned on their coat-tails from pressure.




sc_q_jayce said:


> Indeed. And the studies that we have been citing are talking about those who do not lack vitamin deficiencies. So where has anyone stated that if you have a vitamin deficiency you shouldn't take vitamins? This is another strawman argument that Mark also has not made. Why are you impugning such things on Mark? I disagree with Mark in many things, but at least you should be engaging what he actually wrote instead of making something up.



I have no idea how u have come to the above conclusion based on what I said....




sc_q_jayce said:


> And don't get me started on Eastern Medicine unless you also want to believe the entire system that goes with it?



Preposterous. This is like saying one cannot watch TV unless one wants to subscribe to the secularist world view...or one cannot eat Chinese food unless one subscribes to...or one cannot take karate or Yoga unless....


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## moral necessity (May 31, 2018)

sc_q_jayce said:


> Not sure why you only quoted the comments that spoke negatively about the article and didn't include comments from Fargnoli et. al, and the original author's response to the comments...All in all, the comments are very disappointing and you should read the defenses just as much as you read the critiques of the papers.


Like I said, my point was that such negative comments existed from the medical community regarding the article. I also acknowledged that contrary comments existed.

As a side note, please don't tell me what I should do...it comes across as disrespectful, assumptive, and arrogant, and makes one not want to engage in the thread. For the record, I did read the defenses as well as the critiques.

Blessings and prayers...

Reactions: Like 2


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## LilyG (May 31, 2018)

sc_q_jayce said:


> ...Indeed. And the studies that we have been citing are talking about those who do not lack vitamin deficiencies.



Maybe Google "vitamin deficiencies Americans." And tell us what you find.


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## Pergamum (May 31, 2018)

I would like to learn more about how food prep and soil depletion lowers the potential nutritional content of our foods.

From the interwebs:

"It is a well-known fact that processed junk and fast foods have become staples in the American diet. Fresh, nutrient-rich foods are often considered taxing on time and finances, deeming these food choices a luxury rather than the standard at dinner tables throughout the country.

Furthermore, multiple studies, dating as far back as 1936, have found that the soil of farmland all across the globe is deficient in micronutrients, lowering their content in produce. To further prove this theory, in 2003, Canadian researchers compared the data of current vegetable nutrient content to data from 50 years ago. Their findings showed that the mineral content of cabbage, lettuce, spinach, and tomatoes had depleted from 400 milligrams to less than 50 milligrams throughout the twentieth century. And, that’s just a sampling of what they found.

The fact is, even if processed junk food and fast food were not a part of the food supply, deficiencies would still be rampant, as soil quality is diminishing at a rapid rate and reducing the nutrient value of produce."


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## LilyG (May 31, 2018)

I wonder that, too! 

I see also that grains are mentioned. Their antinutrients must also be a factor.


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## gjensen (May 31, 2018)

First be concerned with mineral deficiencies. 

Most soils are deficient in something. For some, it could be helpful to know what that is. 

Genetics play a part when it comes to the ability to tolerate certain vitamin deficiencies. For example, in the 30s, certain leghorn (poultry) strains were identified to be more tolerant of a couple vitamin deficiencies. The debate became whether or not to feed an ideal ration, or to intentionally breed more durable fowl. In the case of a couple vitamins, the genetics was available to do that. It was assumed that other breeds and strains from the same region (Mediterranean) would have similar tolerances. Land races tend to have tolerances another would not. This is part of their regional identity. 
There is a difference between surviving and thriving, however. To the uninformed, and to the naked eye, most could not tell if something was amiss with their fowl. Some of this shows up in feather conditioning etc. The truth in the pudding is in the incubator. Hatch rates, fertility, chick size and survivability etc. 
For the birds to perform to their genetic potential, a complete ration is necessary. This is getting the best from the animal, but at the same time it could be said that nutritionally needy animals are being bred. 
I am using poultry as an example because we seem to know more about the nutritional requirements of livestock than humans. This industry is about performance, and so measurables matter. The numbers do not lie. 

In the West, we tend to have low vitamin D levels. It could be that we are more tolerant than populations from other regions. Maybe not. Today it is likely that we are deficient in this vitamin because we spend the majority of our time indoors. 

We are fortunate to have access to all that we need to thrive. That is not the case for everyone. Here, if we eat a balanced diet and emphasize variety, it is doubtful that we need any additional supplementation. 

If there is any concern, a general vitamin/mineral supplement is not harmful. It may be helpful. Some sources would be better than others. 

I would not be overly concerned. We are made to be quite resilient and tolerant.


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## Wayne (Jun 1, 2018)

Apart from vitamins, have you researched supplements? We have seen demonstrable benefits from lysosomal curcumin, including about a ten point drop in blood pressure and easing of joint pain. It's a strong anti-inflammatory agent primarily, though there are other claims made for it as well. Some think it best taken in conjunction with resveratrol.


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## OPC'n (Jun 1, 2018)

I tell ya there’s not a subject on earth that PB’ers won’t debate lol. 

I’m not sure why all this debate, but vitamins and minerals that are absorbed well by the body goes far in boosting your immune system. When ever I start getting sick with a cold or allergies etc I take Airborne every three hours until I feel well. I literally can feel it working. It’s good stuff. Probably if I ate better I could fight off colds better and wouldn’t need Airborne but not going to happen. Since you don’t have a lot of heathy food, I would definitely get some supplements

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pergamum (Jun 1, 2018)

gjensen said:


> First be concerned with mineral deficiencies.
> 
> Most soils are deficient in something. For some, it could be helpful to know what that is.
> 
> ...


I am glad you mentioned fowl because I have been reading about the lack of chicken varieties eaten today. Most chickens for eating are too young and 1 variety. I remember how yummy our chickens were when I was a kid on the farm and we had about 15 different kinds and ate them later when they had matured. More brown meat and we ate more organ meat from them, and I think it was healthier. I remember my anger at returning to the US in 2014 and buying a Wal-mart rotisserie chicken and finding out they baste that bird with a dextrose (sugar) solution while cooking. Sugar added to chicken! Author Michael Pollan talks about this "chicken problem" in his books. 

I think we are eating more and more food but it is doing less and less good for our bodies because the nutrients are leached out or not present due to bad soil, or loss in preparation.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pergamum (Jun 1, 2018)

OPC'n said:


> I tell ya there’s not a subject on earth that PB’ers won’t debate lol.
> 
> I’m not sure why all this debate, but vitamins and minerals that are absorbed well by the body goes far in boosting your immune system. When ever I start getting sick with a cold or allergies etc I take Airborne every three hours until I feel well. I literally can feel it working. It’s good stuff. Probably if I ate better I could fight off colds better and wouldn’t need Airborne but not going to happen. Since you don’t have a lot of heathy food, I would definitely get some supplements


What is Airborne and do you have a link? Do you think you get sick a lot more due to working as a nurse and being around sick people all the time? We think so being here treating tribal people who cough (and worse) on us all the time. We take zinc a lot, but would love more immunity boosters, I've had a low-level tooth infection now for several weeks that comes and goes and my last case of malaria last month simply would not heal and my spleen still feels full (taking a primaquine cure now).


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## OPC'n (Jun 1, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> What is Airborne and do you have a link? Do you think you get sick a lot more due to working as a nurse and being around sick people all the time? We think so being here treating tribal people who cough (and worse) on us all the time. We take zinc a lot, but would love more immunity boosters, I've had a low-level tooth infection now for several weeks that comes and goes and my last case of malaria last month simply would not heal and my spleen still feels full (taking a primaquine cure now).



I use the effervescent one bc the chewable don't work for me. I'm not sure you can use amazon. I could try and buy a bunch for you and send them to you for you to try. My mom is on chemo and I'm having her take one a day to keep her immune system high. SO far so good. I don't think me being a nurse makes me more sick. I usually only get one cold a winter if that. 
https://www.amazon.com/Airborne-Vit...527861120&sr=1-1-spons&keywords=airborne&th=1


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## LilyG (Jun 1, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> I am glad you mentioned fowl because I have been reading about the lack of chicken varieties eaten today. Most chickens for eating are too young and 1 variety. I remember how yummy our chickens were when I was a kid on the farm and we had about 15 different kinds and ate them later when they had matured. More brown meat and we ate more organ meat from them, and I think it was healthier. I remember my anger at returning to the US in 2014 and buying a Wal-mart rotisserie chicken and finding out they baste that bird with a dextrose (sugar) solution while cooking. Sugar added to chicken! Author Michael Pollan talks about this "chicken problem" in his books.
> 
> I think we are eating more and more food but it is doing less and less good for our bodies because the nutrients are leached out or not present due to bad soil, or loss in preparation.



Heh, we plucked down (pardon the pun) for a heritage breed "butcher box" the other day. Heritage pork, chicken, beef, BACON... The difference was striking! Pork chops and chicken breasts were always boring to me. But this was amazing. This is how our grandparents and beyond ate! 

Eye-opening.


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## Alan D. Strange (Jun 1, 2018)

LilyG said:


> But this was amazing. This is how our grandparents and beyond ate!



When's dinner?!

Reactions: Like 2


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## LilyG (Jun 1, 2018)

Alan D. Strange said:


> When's dinner?!



Lol. David and I would love to have you over for dinner!


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## Alan D. Strange (Jun 1, 2018)

Well tonight I am taking my wife out for dinner, but perhaps sometime when I am in your neck of the woods (preferably January or so!). 

Peace,
Alan


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## LilyG (Jun 1, 2018)

Hah. Ok!


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## Edward (Jun 1, 2018)

Wayne said:


> curcumin, including about a ten point drop in blood pressure and easing of joint pain.



Anti-cancer benefits, as well, as I recall from some journal articles I ran across while working on something else.

Reactions: Like 1


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## JimmyH (Jun 1, 2018)

At 65, after getting on Medicare, I began seeing a primary care physician for blood work, checkups and what not. Prior to that I would only see a doctor if I broke a bone, or needed stitches, and I didn't always go then. I was doing a lot of speed walking and bicycle riding and thought that I might have shin splints. 

Blood work revealed that I was vitamin D deficient and x-rays showed osteoarthritis basically in all my joints consistent with age. Fortunately only symptomatic in my fingers and occasionally knees and ankles. I was annoyed at the doctor because he was making such a big deal out of the D deficiency and not paying that much attention to my pain. 

To cut to the chase, I began taking 1k units of D3 per day for 6 months and upon my return to the doctor I was still deficient. In the meanwhile I had a lot of pain in the shins, sometimes in other joints. He upped the dose to 5k units per day and had me return in 3 months.

Once beginning the 5k I had a gradual, and eventually complete cessation of pain in my bones. When I went back at the end of the 3 months my D levels were normal.
I googled symptoms of D deficiency in elderly and found that pain in the bones was one of them. 
I had a new found respect for the doctor's sagacity. He had me reduce the 5k down to 2k, and eventually down to 1k. I can't speak for vitamins in general, but I'm a believer in D3 supplements.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Cedarbay (Jun 21, 2018)

Better late than never to say that...

I buy most of my supplements from Premier Research sold at:

https://phpure.com/

They are well absorbed and have no harmful excipients for the body to process. There are several liquid products that work well when one has a compromised gut. Ivan, is the practitioner/site owner and is very helpful.


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## smhbbag (Jun 27, 2018)

> Excessive Vitamin D can be toxic.



Excessive Vitamin D is also essentially impossible to get, unless you're really trying to do it. Most supplements are in the 1000-5000 IU range, and most diets will barely get you to that range even with fortification. But, a decent afternoon in summer sun will see your skin creating 15,000-25,000 IU, and that's a perfectly fine dose to get every single day of the year. 

Mega-dosing D3 (100k or even more) is fine over short periods, and can help attack a sickness. Some doctors give D3 shots to folks once a month in that range if regular supplementation or something isn't possible or easy. As a fat-soluble vitamin, it can hang around longer after the dose and still be working.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Deleted member 7239 (Jun 27, 2018)

https://examine.com/nutrition/do-you-need-a-multivitamin/

Examine.com is a research-based website that covers supplements. Lots of good information and articles with citations.


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## Stephen L Smith (Jun 28, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> I am glad you mentioned fowl





LilyG said:


> Heh, we plucked down


I hope the moderators are looking out for any "fowl" behaviour

Reactions: Like 1


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