# Define Modesty?



## Bondman (Jan 24, 2007)

How do we define modesty? Specifically concerning dress. Even more specifically, women's dress.


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## Romans922 (Jan 24, 2007)

This cannot be defined by American Society, or in the south.


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## Croghanite (Jan 25, 2007)

If women dress in a way that other peoples attention are attracted to her body and not her face, then I would say she is not dressed modestly. Example: a low cut shirt that reveals cleavage.
Men should also dress in a way to draw attention to their face instead of their body. No 70's shorts please.


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## QueenEsther (Jan 25, 2007)

Modesty cannot be pinpointed just to a girls apparel. If she doesn't have a modest attitude, behind the dress then it doesn't matter how much she's wearing, it will become alluring. Body language is also an issue, flirtatious behavior is not modest behavior. As for my idea of a sort of dress code.. I'll have to get back to that one this afternoon..


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## Theoretical (Jan 25, 2007)

QueenEsther said:


> Modesty cannot be pinpointed just to a girls apparel. If she doesn't have a modest attitude, behind the dress then it doesn't matter how much she's wearing, it will become alluring. Body language is also an issue, flirtatious behavior is not modest behavior. As for my idea of a sort of dress code.. I'll have to get back to that one this afternoon..


 Very well said - and that's a good definition, from a guy's perspective.


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## Augusta (Jan 25, 2007)

LAYMAN JOE said:


> If women dress in a way that other peoples attention are attracted to her body and not her face, then I would say she is not dressed modestly. Example: a low cut shirt that reveals cleavage.
> Men should also dress in a way to draw attention to their face instead of their body. No 70's shorts please.






QueenEsther said:


> Modesty cannot be pinpointed just to a girls apparel. If she doesn't have a modest attitude, behind the dress then it doesn't matter how much she's wearing, it will become alluring. Body language is also an issue, flirtatious behavior is not modest behavior. As for my idea of a sort of dress code.. I'll have to get back to that one this afternoon..



 I agree with both these comments. I think it is a combination of style of dress and attitude. In my own struggles in this I have finally come down to mostly skirts. I don't like to be gawked at and if I am being gawked at then I am causing men to sin. Not that they are not culpable too but women know what is going to get looks and what is not. I don't try to wear a sheath dress and completely hide my femininity either. When I dress conservatively if I get looked at, it is a different look. It's a respectable look and not a roving eye look. Of course that makes me a novelty now, because I am in the Seattle area alot and EVERYONE is dressing risque or grunge or both. So to be in a nice skirt and shoes is kind of obvious especially in winter. But at least the looks are not gross but kind of like "look a modestly dressed person you don't see that every day."


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## QueenEsther (Jan 25, 2007)

Ok, as for my sort of dress code. This is nothing I would inforce on anyone else or judge anyone else for not following because, quite frankly, it is an area where I am still growing as well as not knowing their heart. There were times when, I'm sure, I dressed immodestly and it wasn't until around a year ago, at the patient council of a good friend (thanks Gabe ), until I started to understand what an issue this is. So as of this moment.. my skirts and dresses come below my knee when I am sitting, not just when I'm standing. Shirts and tops are not revealing.


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## Bondman (Jan 25, 2007)

Can we all agree that cleavage, any cleavage whatsoever, is immodest?


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## QueenEsther (Jan 25, 2007)

I'd say, yes, and go further to say that not only when standing up but also if anything is showing when you lean over then you ought to have and under shirt on.

Is there a reason for asking?


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## No Longer A Libertine (Jan 25, 2007)

Men need to assemble smashing sports coats or corduroy jackets that are to be worn with trimmed beards or clean shaven and with tucked-in button down shirts or polos.

Fedoras and derbies and Stetsons are optional for public, walking canes for special occasions.

Loafers, clean tennis shoes and cowboy boots are appropriate shoe choices.

Ties are lovely but optional.

Long hair must be maintained and cleanly, shaven heads trimmed evenly and hair pieces realistic (just teasing you).

Ironed slacks or clean blue jeans depending on the company and destination.

Nothing too tight or too baggy, tailored to fit in a flattering fashion.

Hankerchiefs are optional.

Manners and chivalry must be present at all times.

Hop to it men.


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## LadyFlynt (Jan 25, 2007)

Bondman said:


> Can we all agree that cleavage, any cleavage whatsoever, is immodest?



Definately! I even will layer a short sleeved T under another shirt if the buttons don't go high enough (they are making shirts more and more with less buttons and buttonholes...I'm finding myself layering or maying more and more use of safety pins...bad enough I need to take all my 'new' skirts under the machine to close up those horrid slits).


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## Augusta (Jan 25, 2007)

QueenEsther said:


> Ok, as for my sort of dress code. This is nothing I would inforce on anyone else or judge anyone else for not following because, quite frankly, it is an area where I am still growing as well as not knowing their heart. There were times when, I'm sure, I dressed immodestly and it wasn't until around a year ago, at the patient council of a good friend, until I started to understand what an issue this is. So as of this moment.. my skirts and dresses come below my knee when I am sitting, not just when I'm standing. Shirts and tops are not revealing.





All my skirts are below the knee too. I think long skirts are way more attractive anyway. Some really cute skirts out right now cut on the bias. And JC Penney had some really nice ones recently.


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## BJClark (Jan 25, 2007)

Bondman;



> How do we define modesty? Specifically concerning dress. Even more specifically, women's dress.



It depends, for some women dresses to the ankles are considered modest, while for others just below the knee is modest, but yet not modest enough for those who wear dresses to their ankles.

Years ago, I only wore dresses that went to my ankles with long sleeves and boots, but not in order to be 'modest' but because of my own fear of men even looking at me, I was molested, and so for me to wear dresses even just below my knees made me feel as if men were staring...and made me uncomfortable, and I didn't want to draw ANY attention to myself...but even wearing what I did, I found a lot of men were MORE attracted to me. Which made me even more uncomfortable.

So yes, attitude has a lot to do with how a person dresses, when I first started to deal with the internal issues the abuse caused, I went to the other extreme and started wearing things that were SHORT, and would not consider modest at all today, not that I was trying to draw attention to myself, I was trying to find my own comfort zone, and had to learn it really was okay to be an attractive woman, no matter what I wore. 

My friends thought I was weird, because I would buy these really nice dresses and not wear them anywhere but around the house, then after a few weeks and sometimes months of just wearing them around the house, I'd get the courage just to step outside the front door, and only be outside for a few minutes at a time, and after awhile I worked up the courage to wear a shorter dress to the mail box. And eventually, I moved on to wearing dresses that were actually above the knee. And now, 18 years later, I can wear just about anything with confidence, knowing my intentions are not to draw attention to myself, and if men look, I can't control that, but then I don't wear things in public that are above my thigh or that would intentionally draw men to gawk at me.


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## SRoper (Jan 26, 2007)

Bondman said:


> Can we all agree that cleavage, any cleavage whatsoever, is immodest?



I'm not sure I'm ready to agree. I put it on the same level as wearing shorts.



No Longer A Libertine said:


> Men need to assemble smashing sports coats or corduroy jackets that are to be worn with trimmed beards or clean shaven and with tucked-in button down shirts or polos.
> 
> Fedoras and derbies and Stetsons are optional for public, walking canes for special occasions.
> 
> ...



Sounds like the way I usually dress. Although white tennis shoes should only be worn if doing athletic activity. This is more a matter of good taste than modesty, though.


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## LadyFlynt (Jan 26, 2007)

On the skirt-culottes/shorts issue (female/male)...scriptures do point out that the thigh is considered part of one's nakedness.


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## Scott Shahan (Jan 26, 2007)

LadyFlynt said:


> On the skirt-culottes/shorts issue (female/male)...scriptures do point out that the thigh is considered part of one's nakedness.



curious to know the scriptures that point out that the thigh is considered part of one's nakedness...... I haven't heard this before, and am curious to know more about these scripture verses..

Scott


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## LadyFlynt (Jan 26, 2007)

Two verses:



> Exodus 28:42 gives a clue as to what part of the body, if exposed, is considered by God to be nakedness. God said that for the priests, "You shall make for them linen trousers to cover their nakedness; they shall reach from the waist to the the thighs."





> Isa 47:2 Take the millstones, and grind meal: uncover thy locks, make bare the leg, uncover the thigh, pass over the rivers.
> Isa 47:3 Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man.


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## Scott Shahan (Jan 26, 2007)

LadyFlynt said:


> Two verses:



Thanks


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## QueenEsther (Jan 26, 2007)

LadyFlynt said:


> Two verses:




That's very interesting! I'm not sure if I had heard those before..


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## Bondman (Jan 26, 2007)

QueenEsther said:


> I'd say, yes, and go further to say that not only when standing up but also if anything is showing when you lean over then you ought to have and under shirt on.
> 
> Is there a reason for asking?



The reason I'm asking is that my pastor does not agree.


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## QueenEsther (Jan 26, 2007)

That's weird.. I thought most Christian men don't like being tempted. Is it regarding some of the girls at your church or just girls in general?


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## LadyFlynt (Jan 26, 2007)

He disagrees about showing cleavage? Based on what?


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## lv1nothr (Jan 26, 2007)

I too would like to hear this reasoning! Aiaiaiai!!!


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## Croghanite (Jan 26, 2007)

Bondman said:


> The reason I'm asking is that my pastor does not agree.



oh boy...


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## Theoretical (Jan 26, 2007)

LAYMAN JOE said:


> oh boy...


No kidding.


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## LadyFlynt (Jan 26, 2007)

*looks in the mirror to make sure the gents aren't thinking there's a pirana on this side of the comp.


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## Croghanite (Jan 26, 2007)

Since my good buddy Matt drops bombs and leaves for hours with no explanation, I guess I can shed some light on the Pastors position.

His position on modesty has been clearly taught from the pulpit (roughly a year ago). I am posting this to not drag this man down but in hopes these things move you to pray for him and the session.
1- The culture dictates what is modest dress. ie. Our culture accepts some cleavage to be seen and you will still be in the bounds of modesty if you show some. He uses examples of cultures that are naked all the time. I guess those cultures will never have modesty problems!
2- There is nothing wrong with looking at naked art/ pictures . You can look at such things as long as you dont lust after the art. He uses the example of his sabbatical to Europe showing a man can look at this art and not sin. 
3- No man should be telling a woman what she can or cant wear. Everyone should decide whats proper for themselves. 

I must stop there  
There are other serious issues with the way Scripture is being interpreted and taught. Please pray for my church and session.


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## Theoretical (Jan 26, 2007)




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## LadyFlynt (Jan 26, 2007)

Definately will be praying for that gent.


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## QueenEsther (Jan 26, 2007)

Ok, so here's what is going through my head with the excuse that in some cultures everyone runs around naked. I, personally, have never talked to any of these people and I don't know of anyone who has so we have no idea what is going on in the minds of these 'tribal' men. Most likely (and I'm just assuming here) they too have a lusting issue but they are a pegan society and thus say that 1. dressing like that is perfectly normal and 2. lusting is ok.

Anyway, that's just my


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## Gesetveemet (Jan 26, 2007)

Bondman said:


> How do we define modesty? Specifically concerning dress. Even more specifically, women's dress.



There is something to read about Modesty vs. Immodesty here. 
http://www.momof9splace.com/sinof.html

*THE SIN OF BATH-SHEBA *II Samuel 11:2 
An Address to Christian Women 
By a Brother in Christ

Williams


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## LadyFlynt (Jan 26, 2007)

Yes, in a Christian Society you will not see nakedness...and not because of culture.


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## SemperWife (Jan 26, 2007)

QueenEsther said:


> Ok, so here's what is going through my head with the excuse that in some cultures everyone runs around naked. I, personally, have never talked to any of these people and I don't know of anyone who has so we have no idea what is going on in the minds of these 'tribal' men. Most likely (and I'm just assuming here) they too have a lusting issue but they are a pegan society and thus say that 1. dressing like that is perfectly normal and 2. lusting is ok.



I agree. When considering other tribal cultures, it is important to remember that all men and women sin. I am sure even tribes in the most remote parts of the world struggle with lust as it is sin. Their lust may/may not take a different form than ours does, but it is lust just the same.

I am a nursing mother. I have some friends from the Phillipines that tell me women don't bother to cover there at all when in public. Wherever they are at, they just open up their shirts and feed. She tells me that it doesn't seem to be an issue for the men there. I don't know for sure since I have never been there. However, I find it difficult to believe that a man might not have any sinful thoughts arise from such an exposure, filipino or not. Just because something becomes the "norm" doesn't mean a man can't be tempted by it. Men may not go around talking about what they saw, but they can still certainly lust in their thoughts.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 26, 2007)

Let me just improve a teensy bit upon what some others have said.

I think it _does_ matter what a particular culture believes is sensual. For the Japanese culture, for instance, it used to be very sensual merely to show a portion of your wrist. Some cultures found the display of ankles sensuous.

The question of the display of thighs is interesting. I was just thinking about this some more because I know that the Jewish (and Mid East cultures) all considered the uncovering of the legs at all to be shameful. There are tractactes from Rabbis that go to great lengths how a man ought to get mud or blood all over the bottom of his garment then accidentally uncover his ankles. The picture of the father running to the prodigal son is very powerful when one considers the shame in hiking up his robe to run to the son and fall on him to embrace him. But that's an aside.

Now I'm not willing to throw all of the discussion of the thigh being nakedness into the category of cultural accomodation but I do think we need to think _beyond_ the body part and what the body part signifies to the person.

Frankly, if you're in an Arabic culture, ladies, your best bet is to cover yourselves up. They stumble just by seing the female form at all. I've heard numerous accounts from women there as well as men, of Arabic men literally walking up to American women and grabbing them. One Marine that worked for me had to walk down the street with a woman to protect her from such assaults. Now, in my estimation, she probably would have just been smarter to just wear a robe to remove the threat altogether but we have a strong tendency in our culture not to be put out by the fact that others will be tempted. If it's not a temptation for us then it's not immodest, we conclude.


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## SemperWife (Jan 26, 2007)

With regard to modesty, I try to consider two things when I dress and do my hair/make-up. First, Will Christ be pleased? Second, Will my husband be pleased? If I am uncertain about something, I look to my husband.

Men are a great resource in this area. They know what tempts them and even other men. As a sister in Christ, I don't want to cause my brother to stumble. So I consider these things.


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## QueenEsther (Jan 26, 2007)

SemperWife said:


> With regard to modesty, I try to consider two things when I dress and do my hair/make-up. First, Will Christ be pleased? Second, Will my husband be pleased? If I am uncertain about something, I look to my husband.
> 
> Men are a great resource in this area. They know what tempts them and even other men. As a sister in Christ, I don't want to cause my brother to stumble. So I consider these things.



That's a good thing to remember! I remember one summer I dressed totally modest and without any regard to fashion, because I was trying to dress for my friends mom and I wanted her to like me. It took me a while before I realized what I was doing and I didn't need to be wearing things for someone else. I still dressed modestly (perhaps not to that extent) but my attitude and focus changed.


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## Bondman (Jan 26, 2007)

joshua said:


> I would agree with aforementioned sentiments. However, when engaging in missions across the world, say an "uncivilized" tribe where the men wear nothing but loincloths, and the women, according to our American standard, are dressed immodestly, we'd have to be patient. _Modesty _to them would be a bit different than _modesty_ to us.



Agreed. I think. While modesty in their corrupt understanding would be a bit different, we would rightly judge their immodesty as immodesty, and deal with it at an appropriate time, using wisdom.


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## SRoper (Jan 26, 2007)

SemperWife said:


> I have some friends from the Phillipines that tell me women don't bother to cover there at all when in public. Wherever they are at, they just open up their shirts and feed.



My pastor preached at a church (I think it was in Ghana) where the women did that during the sermon (and didn't cover up afterwards)! The men and women sit separately, however.


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## Bondman (Jan 26, 2007)

LAYMAN JOE said:


> Since my good buddy Matt drops bombs and leaves for hours with no explanation, I guess I can shed some light on the Pastors position.
> 
> His position on modesty has been clearly taught from the pulpit (roughly a year ago). I am posting this to not drag this man down but in hopes these things move you to pray for him and the session.
> 1- The culture dictates what is modest dress. ie. Our culture accepts some cleavage to be seen and you will still be in the bounds of modesty if you show some. He uses examples of cultures that are naked all the time. I guess those cultures will never have modesty problems!
> ...



Thanks good buddy! 

Joe accurately portrays the situation here. I will be pursuing this matter further and coming back to the esteemed PB brothers and sisters with the progress or lack thereof. Thanks for the comments. They are helping me formulate what it is that I should say next to my pastor.


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## LadyFlynt (Jan 26, 2007)

Lactivist stepping out here....

In most countries...including uber modest ones...nursing is given an exception and most ppl recognize it for what it is. There is not always "somewhere else" to go with your child and a woman and child should not be ostracised from service because of a nursing babe...

the old story goes...

A male Dr in the middle east walked into a room full of nursing mothers...they all screamed and scrambled to cover their....

Heads. They continued openly nursing.


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## QueenEsther (Jan 26, 2007)

LadyFlynt said:


> the old story goes...
> 
> A male Dr in the middle east walked into a room full of nursing mothers...they all screamed and scrambled to cover their....
> 
> Heads. They continued openly nursing.



 That's funny


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## QueenEsther (Jan 26, 2007)

joshua said:


> I certainly hope my comment was not seen as an excuse for someone to indulge in their lusts. I also never said these people lack any lusting issues. I just don't believe, in certain cultures, that their lust is aroused by the same things. For example, women who go around topless (which some of these people have seen their whole lives). I also never meant to imply that lusting is ok, as I think it's a terrible plague amongst men today, even Christian men.
> 
> I agree with Rich's last post.
> 
> ...



Not at all, I didn't think you were excusing them, I understand where you were coming from, I just don't think that using the whole "tribal' thing is a valid _excuse_ for women being immodest _here_.


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## Bondman (Jan 27, 2007)

LadyFlynt said:


> Lactivist stepping out here....
> 
> In most countries...including uber modest ones...nursing is given an exception and most ppl recognize it for what it is. There is not always "somewhere else" to go with your child and a woman and child should not be ostracised from service because of a nursing babe...
> 
> ...



"For non-Muslim women like me, public breastfeeding is much like anywhere in the USA. We try to be as discreet as possible, not "showing anything." Muslim women usually wear an abaya, or black cloak, and I often notice little feet sticking out! The abaya, it turns out, is the perfect breastfeeding cover-up. Actually, this and other Saudi customs can serve to make public breastfeeding easier than in many parts of the world. Another example is the seating in restaurants. All restaurants have separate areas for single men and for families. Many also have a women-only section. In the family section, there are usually folding screens or curtains to give the family complete privacy while they are dining. I have found either the screen/curtain or the ladies-only section a perfect place to feed my nurslings."

- http://www.lalecheleague.org/llleaderweb/LV/LVJunJul05p60.html

The only reason they can breastfeed in public is because they are wearing tents or are behind large screens.


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## SemperWife (Jan 27, 2007)

LadyFlynt said:


> Lactivist stepping out here....
> 
> In most countries...including uber modest ones...nursing is given an exception and most ppl recognize it for what it is. There is not always "somewhere else" to go with your child and a woman and child should not be ostracised from service because of a nursing babe...


 and

I hope my comment was not taken as though I thought it was OK to "ostracize" people on the basis of nursing publicly. I am a nursing mother. I certainly realize that there is not always a place to go. In the states, where nursing publicly/openly (breasts completely exposed) is legal but not generally practiced, it would not be modest (in my opinion) to do so. The modest thing would be to cover in some fashion. I nurse in public settings, but always covered so as not to be a temptation to any man. I would never advocate ostracizing anyone even if they did so.


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## SemperWife (Jan 28, 2007)

Bondman said:


> "... We try to be as discreet as possible, not "showing anything." Muslim women usually wear an abaya, or black cloak, and I often notice little feet sticking out! The abaya, it turns out, is the perfect breastfeeding cover-up. Actually, this and other Saudi customs can serve to make public breastfeeding easier than in many parts of the world...
> 
> The only reason they can breastfeed in public is because they are wearing tents or are behind large screens.



While I don't think we need to wear a tent or necessarily go behind a large screen, I also don't think we should be bare-breasted, at least in America. There is something to be said for a little discretion/modesty...particularly in American culture.


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## SemperWife (Jan 28, 2007)

SemperWife said:


> I agree. When considering other tribal cultures, it is important to remember that all men and women sin. I am sure even tribes in the most remote parts of the world struggle with lust as it is sin. Their lust may/may not take a different form than ours does, but it is lust just the same.
> 
> I am a nursing mother. I have some friends from the Phillipines that tell me women don't bother to cover there at all when in public. Wherever they are at, they just open up their shirts and feed. She tells me that it doesn't seem to be an issue for the men there. I don't know for sure since I have never been there. However, I find it difficult to believe that a man might not have any sinful thoughts arise from such an exposure, filipino or not. Just because something becomes the "norm" doesn't mean a man can't be tempted by it. Men may not go around talking about what they saw, but they can still certainly lust in their thoughts.



I apologize if I demonstrated a lack of cultural sensitivity here. I just meant to imply that lust (as a sin) is an issue for all cultures. Perhaps open breastfeeding (again defined as complete exposure of the breasts) is not a lust issue for filipino and other cultures. I did allow room for that possibility. That being said, however, I am sure there are things that exist in filipino culture that are lust/sin issues for the men within that culture. 

The only reason I brought in the issue of nursing was because some women use it as an excuse to be immodest. My previous posts speak more to that. I got a little sidetracked with lust/culture discussion in my initial post. Sorry!


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 28, 2007)

LadyFlynt said:


> Lactivist stepping out here....
> 
> In most countries...including uber modest ones...nursing is given an exception and most ppl recognize it for what it is. There is not always "somewhere else" to go with your child and a woman and child should not be ostracised from service because of a nursing babe...
> 
> ...



Colleen,

Time to pull the old mythbuster plug on this one but I _seriously_ doubt this is a true story. It is well known that many Muslim women (in the Middle East and elsewher) will not go to a male doctor for medical help. It's one of the reasons that they train female doctors. Incidentally, this is always a planning consideration for us when we send medical teams from my commands to disaster areas. We always ensure to send a good mix of female doctors for that very reason.

Regarding the initial point, I don't believe my comment was meant to argue that nursing mothers have to leave an area but it does go to the way they do it. If by your comment you mean that everybody realizes that nursing is a normal thing so they don't have a problem with a woman baring her chest in a room full of people and nursing uncovered then I would have to disagree with you. If you mean a woman shouldn't be sent into another room because she's covered up and a guy just knows that underneath that blanket is a bare breast that he cannot see then that's not what I, or anyone else, was talking about.

The point, again, is the issue of modesty. There is no point in any woman becoming militant over the issue of who is/isn't tempted in given situations. As in all areas of faith and practice, women ought to be submitting in this area to their own Covenant heads and their heads have a responsibility to protect them from eyes that they know will be falling upon them.

I have, thus, failed to provide a prescriptive list and create Talmudic writings that govern proper dress. It is an area that requires prudence and knowing the Word of God, the culture you're in, and the particular setting within that culture. I would be foolish to apply the same rules of modesty for my wife and children in all climes and places given what I know of a variety of cultures.


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