# Should I study German?



## Hamalas (Dec 7, 2009)

Let me give some background before I ask my question. I'm currently a sophomore at Patrick Henry College studying as a history major. Every history major has to take two years of a classical language, which in my case happens to be Latin. I'm finishing up my first semester of Latin now but am going to be taking the next year or so off from school so that I can work and actually have money to give the school.  During that time I've toyed with the idea of taking German (or maybe even French) at a local community college. It wouldn't count towards my language credits here at PHC but my thought is that it might help me simply because I'd be studying a language (even if it wasn't Latin.) So here's my question: would studying German help me in my Latin studies next year? Regardless I'll still be keeping up on my Latin on the side. Also, for those of you who have some experience with German, would you recommend it as a good language to study? Is it difficult, and if so, why? Any comments you may have would be most appreciated!


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## DMcFadden (Dec 7, 2009)

If you plan on doing theological work of the modern period, German would be helpful. Frankly, if you have a Reformation orientation, Latin will take you further. However, if you are thinking of adding to your Latin a "spoken" language, German would be ideal. Do you plan on learning Greek at some point?

German is an inflected language with lots of long convoluted (from an English perspective) sentences. All of those separable prefix verbs with the main part at the end of the sentence! But, just think of all the Karl Barth you could read in the orginal! 

Bottom line: Deutsch ist ein artig Programmiersprache zu erfahren.


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## TimV (Dec 7, 2009)

The problem with German is that just about any German you meet is likely to speak English. Any reasons against Spanish? Learning Spanish will indeed help you with Latin, and it's crazy useful as well.

I forgot what Dr. M said about theology. But remember to understand theology in German you'll have to take 4-6 years intensive study.


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## DMcFadden (Dec 7, 2009)

TimV said:


> The problem with German is that just about any German you meet is likely to speak English. Any reasons against Spanish? Learning Spanish will indeed help you with Latin, and it's crazy useful as well.
> 
> I forgot what Dr. M said about theology. But remember to understand theology in German you'll have to take 4-6 years intensive study.



Tim, I agree with you about the Spanish. It would be MUCH more useful than German as a spoken language.

For research and scholarly purposes, most PhD types do a very elementary course in German to pass their language comps. Some of them are quite functional in it without 4-6 years of intensive study. I guess it depends on whether you happen to have an aptitude for languages or not and what kind of "study" you plan on doing. Even if you read a document in English, it is useful to reference the original of it and labor through the language in order to see if you agree with the translation of a particular sentence or paragraph you are using.


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## Skyler (Dec 7, 2009)

German isn't a Romance language (derived from the Romans -> Latin), so it won't really help with Latin studies. Spanish or French would. However, German would help with studying some of the Reformers, as others have pointed out... if you don't want to take Latin, I'd probably suggest French. Then you can get the best of both worlds. 

-----Added 12/7/2009 at 12:28:32 EST-----



TimV said:


> The problem with German is that just about any German you meet is likely to speak English. Any reasons against Spanish? Learning Spanish will indeed help you with Latin, and it's crazy useful as well.
> 
> I forgot what Dr. M said about theology. But remember to understand theology in German you'll have to take 4-6 years intensive study.



The Amish (well, some of them...) speak an Americanized form of German, but unless you know any Amish...


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## Guido's Brother (Dec 7, 2009)

I'd say take as many languages as you can. Take both German and French if you can.


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## Scottish Lass (Dec 7, 2009)

Took French, German, and Latin in high school (don't ask!). To pair with your Latin, I suggest French, where you'll find some overlap. German is structured more like English, but the compound words can get to be a bit much. At first you'll see words we've obviously borrowed, but that'll stop by the end of the first year.


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## jwithnell (Dec 7, 2009)

Studying any language sharpens your skill for learning any other language. It forces you to be much more cognizant of the structure of language. The consistency of German is nice, and after Latin, you'll be ready for the additional case structures that initially baffles most of us. I'm not sure I'd want to study any of the romance languages at the same time -- with all that overlap, there'd be too much to confuse.


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## Pilgrim72 (Dec 7, 2009)

I took a couple years of German in college. I actually enjoyed it, but sadly, I had no one to speak with, so I forgot most of it.

One of the hardest things I remember from German is the prepositions... 
Oh, and the different cases!!! Yikes!  (dativ, akkusativ, genitiv, nominativ)
And the genders too... you have to memorize all those too... 

Have fun!


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## Christusregnat (Dec 7, 2009)

iEstudia Espanol Gringo!


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## AThornquist (Dec 7, 2009)

iMis pantalones estan en fuego . . . ajajay!


Spanish is super useful, Ben.


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## Osage Bluestem (Dec 7, 2009)

I have some French and German. French was useful to a degree in France...

If you are going to actually spend time learning a spoken language of today, Spanish is the way to go in the United States. Mandarin Chinese can't hurt either. It will eventually become much more useful when the Chinese take over. However, since the Spanish are currently taking over, it's probably a great idea to learn their language. German is a useless language in the 21st century their takeover attempt failed.


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## Tripel (Dec 7, 2009)

I took 4 semesters of German in college. It's a fun language, very similar to English, but not all that useful.


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## Hamalas (Dec 7, 2009)

Thanks for the feedback everyone! It looks like I may need to explain a bit more. 

Basically I _have_ to study Latin in order to graduate so that's a done deal. After college I also plan on going to seminary where I will get both Greek and Hebrew. My ideal after that would be to have a smattering of French and German and to be able to converse comfortably in Spanish (which I have already taken two years of.) The thing with taking Spanish is this, I really don't find the classroom setting to be an effective way to learn conversational street Spanish. As I said above, although I've taken two years of Spanish I still can't speak hardly at all because almost none of the class time was spent actually talking in Spanish and almost everyone else in the class was there to earn their language credit and then forget everything they'd learned.  My plan (at least at this point) is to take my foundational knowledge of Spanish and do a language immersion program overseas sometime in the next few years. Hopefully that will give me enough of a foundation that I can begin to speak to Spanish speakers in their native tongue and then develop from there. (By the way, for you Spanish speakers out there does that sound like a practical idea?) 
People have also discussed the usefulness of some of these languages as regards career choices so let me explain that a bit too. My ideal would be to finish my undergrad and then go to both seminary and graduate school (where I would study for a PhD in U.S. History) with the ultimate goal of teaching American history at the college level.

I hope that clarifies my question a bit! Thanks for all your helpful comments. This is interesting, keep it coming!


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## kvanlaan (Dec 7, 2009)

> The problem with German is that just about any German you meet is likely to speak English. Any reasons against Spanish? Learning Spanish will indeed help you with Latin, and it's crazy useful as well.



Spanish at least has some linguistic ties to Latin, is easier to learn, more useful, and you don't need a ready supply of phlegm on hand to speak it.

Aber Deutsch ist Ausgezeignet! (Took it, enjoyed it, but Spanish would have been a smarter course of action.)


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## Hamalas (Dec 7, 2009)

So do y'all think it's beneficial to study Spanish at a university? Or is it better to do the language immersion thing?


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## Wayne (Dec 7, 2009)

Immersion.

Story of Allan MacRae, who studied in Germany for his doctorate--he rented a room from an older widow and would daily converse with her over lunch. He got to the point where he was dreaming in German. That's immersion.


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## Edward (Dec 7, 2009)

What history are you studying? 19th and 20th century, I'd go with German. Earlier, I'd go with French.


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## AThornquist (Dec 7, 2009)

If you have the opportunity, definitely immerse. There are many college programs that aren't effective in this area at all. For learning Spanish, I am fortunate to live in an area that is practically only gringos and Hispanics, so the language program at the local JC is absolutely fantastic. There is a large emphasis on conversing and the professor has an astounding amount of experience with the language, particularly because she is a travel-holic and has been immersed for years in multiple Spanish speaking countries, including Spain, so she knows every nuance of the language. Her advice is that if you have the opportunity to immerse, definitely do it. A good college program is worthwhile as well, but only if it is _good_.


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## Prufrock (Dec 7, 2009)

Hamalas said:


> So do y'all think it's beneficial to study Spanish at a university? Or is it better to do the language immersion thing?



Ben, if I may suggest -- I would not think in terms of an either/or here. Immersion is good; but immersion can only take you so far without formal study (and, though to a slightly lesser extent, I think the same is true the other way around). Think of all the current teenage generation in America which is "immersed" in English, and yet does not know the first thing about properly using the language, and would be wholly lost if a passage of Milton were placed before them. Immersion is only "properly beneficial" if you are being immersed in something which you know how to use formally.


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## kvanlaan (Dec 7, 2009)

> Ben, if I may suggest -- I would not think in terms of an either/or here. Immersion is good; but immersion can only take you so far without formal study (and, though to a slightly lesser extent, I think the same is true the other way around). Think of all the current teenage generation in America which is "immersed" in English, and yet does not know the first thing about properly using the language, and would be wholly lost if a passage of Milton were placed before them. Immersion is only "properly beneficial" if you are being immersed in something which you know how to use formally.



I agree. Gotta ask, Ben, what are you planning to use it for?


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## Hamalas (Dec 7, 2009)

kvanlaan said:


> > Ben, if I may suggest -- I would not think in terms of an either/or here. Immersion is good; but immersion can only take you so far without formal study (and, though to a slightly lesser extent, I think the same is true the other way around). Think of all the current teenage generation in America which is "immersed" in English, and yet does not know the first thing about properly using the language, and would be wholly lost if a passage of Milton were placed before them. Immersion is only "properly beneficial" if you are being immersed in something which you know how to use formally.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. Gotta ask, Ben, what are you planning to use it for?



Do you mean Spanish? If so, I plan on using it primarily for ministry purposes. I also have some friends down in Chile and frankly I just really love the Spanish language!


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## rrfranks (Dec 8, 2009)

One nice thing about learning Spanish is that you could always practice with your father. It is not immersion, but it would allow you to put it into practice. (Or drive you crazy)


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## Hamalas (Dec 8, 2009)

rrfranks said:


> One nice thing about learning Spanish is that you could always practice with your father. It is not immersion, but it would allow you to put it into practice. (Or drive you crazy)



Or perhaps this whole discussion simply begs the larger question: should Presbyterians even take part in language "immersion" programs? Is there a more biblical teaching style that is in line with the sprinkling and/or pouring seen in Scripture.


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## Christoffer (Dec 8, 2009)

About immersion

I worked in France for eight months, I had taken a basic course in French before that. 

I was surrounded by french all day, and I progressed incredibly fast that way. In just a couple of months I was getting by fine. But, I had no clue as to why certain things were said in one way, others in another.

I had no grammar skills, though by induction you can get far.

And I only learned what was necessary for work and for small talk. If I open a french Bible I have no clue as to what it says.

For immersion to work, I think you'd need to spend one day with a farmer, one day with a chef, one day with a car mechanic, one day with a theologian etc.


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## A S (Dec 8, 2009)

if you want to stick with learning a new language that would come easy to you, or rather, easier than others, then stick with a language from the Romance category. Ie. Latin, French, Spanish, Portuguese... these languages share up to 70% of the vocab in common (or atleast, this is what I have read), of course they all have their own unique nuances and sound totally different. With your latin and spanish experience, French should come naturally to you, AND you will be able to read Calvin in his original language. Doesn't get much better than that, no?? Problem solved.


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## Sebastian Heck (Dec 8, 2009)

Yes, of course you need to learn German! By the way, it's not that hard - learned it as a little kid myself!


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## JBaldwin (Dec 8, 2009)

I vote for the immersion meth0d, if you can find a good course of study in the language to come alongside it. I attended a ten-month full time language school while living in France, so I was almost completely immersed in the language. That was the best way to learn a language, and if I had to the opportunity to learn another language, I would choose that method. When I came home from Fance after 2 1/2 years, I had to struggle to think in English.

As far as which language, unless you just want German under your belt or think you want to read the German reformers in their original language, I would not bother with German. I learned German in high school, and I have found it pretty useless in my studies over the years. On the other hand, my French has come in handy several times, and I've even been able to understand a little Spanish and Italian since the word roots are so similar. Another bonus is that I've been able to translate for French-speaking folk on more than one occasion.


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## Montanablue (Dec 8, 2009)

I think formal study plus immersion is the way to go. I minored in Spanish (in a program that really did emphasize conversation which was helpful) and then spent 6 months living in Mexico. At the end of the 6 months, while I wasn't fluent, I could certainly carry on a conversation quite easily and I also understood the grammar side of things.

Besides, studying abroad is fun!


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## jwithnell (Dec 8, 2009)

After two years of studying Spanish, an opportunity to immerse in the language would probably work really well -- preferably somewhere in Latin America since those are the dialects you hear in the US.

To clarify, when you say a year off, do you mean starting in January, or next fall?


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## a mere housewife (Dec 8, 2009)

I think to some degree method is probably going to vary somewhat depending on the person? One can intuit a great deal of meaning without ever learning, not just conjugation or a more formal vocabulary, but almost any _words_. I am ashamed to confess that I cheated through my high school Spanish courses as through all other courses at that point -- so I had enough to be 'foundational' but not more -- and then spent six months in Mexico, and could understand what people said to me quite well (I could understand sermons, conversations, made my way around Mexico City alone on public transportation etc); but it was all so very mysterious because I never learned even the words I apparently understood when others used them, which became obvious when I tried to read something, or to speak to others.

I would vote for rigorous formal instruction under an autocratic teacher personally . I think it's the only method that would work for me.

-----Added 12/8/2009 at 09:37:56 EST-----



> Or perhaps this whole discussion simply begs the larger question: should Presbyterians even take part in language "immersion" programs? Is there a more biblical teaching style that is in line with the sprinkling and/or pouring seen in Scripture.



PS. Perhaps you should have this moved to the 'paedo answers' forum .


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## jwithnell (Dec 8, 2009)

Heidi, I wonder if you have an unusual learning style, and perhaps a talent for languages? What you describe sounds like a small child learning a language for the first time. Wow!


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## TimV (Dec 8, 2009)

Again I forgot something before giving advice. As Herr Heck pointed out, German is so easy even the little kids there speak it.


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## jogri17 (Dec 9, 2009)

Go for French. IT works much better with latin than german.


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## kevin.carroll (Dec 9, 2009)

Deutsch ist eine shoene Sprache. Mit die kann man Theologie besser studieren. Sie auch macht Bier trinken wunderbar!


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## Romans922 (Dec 9, 2009)

Everyone here should take English! That will not help you at all with Latin or German or any other language. But it is very useful as an American.


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## Skyler (Dec 9, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> Everyone here should take English! That will not help you at all with Latin or German or any other language. But it is very useful as an American.



Plus, it's a required course for pretty much any degree anywhere. 

edit: And, depending on whether or not you get into the Latin roots of English words, it can help, actually.


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## TimV (Dec 9, 2009)

Student lament:

Latin is a language 
It's dead as it can be
It killed the ancient Romans
And now it's killing me


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## Christusregnat (Dec 14, 2009)

Wayne said:


> Immersion.
> 
> Story of Allan MacRae, who studied in Germany for his doctorate--he rented a room from an older widow and would daily converse with her over lunch. He got to the point where he was dreaming in German. That's immersion.




Wouldn't you agree Wayne that really, a pouring or sprinkling of a language is more biblically appropriate? 

Oops! Just noticed Ben's earlier comment...


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## Wayne (Dec 14, 2009)

Actually, a _smattering _of a language or two has, for me, been sufficient thus far.


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## Christusregnat (Dec 14, 2009)

Wayne said:


> Actually, a _smattering _of a language or two has, for me, been sufficient thus far.



Is this considered a heretical neo-charismatic 2d blessing, dog rolling, inane guffawing, smattering mode? 

We're coming for your Wayne:


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## QueenEsther (Dec 14, 2009)

Can you get Rosetta Stone? That's a great way to learn a language.

We have French and Italian.


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## Hamalas (Dec 14, 2009)

I've heard of Rosetta Stone, would y'all recommend it? How much does it cost?


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## kvanlaan (Dec 14, 2009)

> About immersion
> 
> I worked in France for eight months, I had taken a basic course in French before that.
> 
> ...



This is a brilliantly relevant point. When I first went to China, I was immersed up to my neck (and then some) in the language. I was there to help set up a factory, and after a few months the equipment came in by ship. My boss basically said: "The production line is over there, your employees are over here. They don't speak English, you don't speak Chinese. You have six weeks to get it working." Amazing how fast you can learn in a situation like that. However, while I can blow your mind in a Chinese hardware store, I am fairly lost when walking into a bakery supply shop. Fully rounded immersion is great, but few people ever get it.


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## QueenEsther (Dec 14, 2009)

The current version is pretty expensive, unless you work for them. I think it's a couple hundred dollars. My husband used to work for them, that's how we got ours. You might be able to get an older version, still good, on ebay or some place like that.


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## Der Pilger (Dec 16, 2009)

Hamalas said:


> So here's my question: would studying German help me in my Latin studies next year?



It's possible that studying _any_ language will improve your knowledge of grammatical concepts. I studied German for a long time, and besides learning the language itself, I picked up on many grammatical concepts that I had only been vaguely familiar with beforehand, such as accusative, genitive, dative, and dependent and independent clauses. Now, when I study Koine Greek, these terms pose no difficulty to me and I can dive right in to actually working on the content itself rather than scratching my head and wondering, "Was accusative the direct object, or was that the genitive?"



> Also, for those of you who have some experience with German, would you recommend it as a good language to study?



Given the enormous learning curve of _mastering_ a foreign language, I wouldn't recommend studying any language unless one either has a good, practical reason for doing so or simply thrives on that sort of thing. I also wouldn't recommend it to anyone who lacks patience and perseverance. The whole "Learn _________ in 30 minutes a day" is absolute bunk. Mastering a language takes sheer toil and sweat.

Note that I used the word "master" above. That is different from learning. I can play "Scotland the Brave" on the harmonica, but I have not mastered the instrument. 



> Is it difficult, and if so, why? Any comments you may have would be most appreciated!



That's difficult to answer. It's like asking, "Is learning math difficult?" Language acquisition can vary from one individual to the next. Some are better able than others to wrap their minds around vocabulary, spelling, and other linguistic challenges. Others might have a weakness in languages but have a strength in math. But generally speaking, I will say this: Yes, German is a difficult language, and for these reasons (some of which might not deter you since you've studied Latin, which probably is just as complex):

Highly inflected: varying word endings for nouns, verbs, articles and adjectives dependent on number, gender (three), case, etc.

Word order is different from English, for example, in dependent clauses. The *verbs* in the dependent clause in the following sentence:

I don't think that I *will go* to the store tonight.

when in German would be reversed in order and tacked on to the end of the clause, like this:

I don't think that I to the store tonight *go will*.

Sorry for the lengthy reply, but I hope it helps.


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## TimV (Dec 16, 2009)

> They don't speak English, you don't speak Chinese. You have six weeks to get it working." Amazing how fast you can learn in a situation like that.



I had to promise to learn conversational Zulu in 6 weeks as well. Throwing a guy into the deep end works.


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## DMcFadden (Dec 16, 2009)

Zulu? Tim you NEVER cease to amaze me!

I'm hardly competent in English!

On Rosetta Stone, the basic edition may be around $200 but the full treatment is more than $500 in some languages.


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