# Clubs and Associations



## satz (Feb 22, 2005)

I was hoping to get the opinions of everyone else on this.

What are your views on whether there is anything wrong with joining a club or association with unbelievers.

Assume that the object of the club is inherently not sinful, nor would there be any NECESSARY compromise or sin.

I guess what i am trying to get at is if it is wrong to join in an association that has non-sinful aims simply because there will be a majority of non-christian members as well.

I suppose examples could be a neighbourhood community club, school football team, parent-teachers associations, etc etc


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Feb 22, 2005)

This is a good question. On the one hand, we are avoid being unequally yoked with unbelievers, on the other we are to be salt and light in the world. 

George Gillespie wrote a tract which I have called _Forbidden Alliances: Concerning Associations and Confederacies with Idolaters, Infidels, Heretics, or Any Other Known Enemies of Truth and Godliness_. How's that for a title?

My own view is that one should look carefully at the goals of the organization before ascribing to its agenda by virture of membership. 

I would not join pro-life groups that ally themselves with the Catholic Church, for example. I would also not join a political party unless its principles were entirely consistent with godly government. Pragmatic considerations that involve compromise are not sufficient to justify the end without consideration to the means. 

But stamp clubs and other innocuous organizations may be entirely lawful and profitable for Christians to participate in and enjoy for the service of the kingdom.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Feb 22, 2005)

To take this a step further then - is it right to go to an extreme secular/atheist university? What is the spiritual difference between a place of learning and an association?


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## wsw201 (Feb 22, 2005)

I don't think there would be any inherent problem joining a club or association like the Lion's Club or the Rotary Club or other type of service club. Christianity is not some kind of cult where we can only associate with other Christians. We are "in" the world, but nor "of" the world. 

Fraser,

What would you consider an extreme secular/atheist university?


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## dkicklig (Feb 22, 2005)

My daughter joined the Daisy Girl Scouts. Although not a Christian organization, they do instill values of service to God and country. Even so, we joined so we could connect with more unbelievers in our community. While the girls are doing their activities (which are all service oriented) the parents have time to interact. My wife and I hope it will become a real outreach for us.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Feb 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by wsw201_
> Fraser,
> 
> What would you consider an extreme secular/atheist university?


I do not want to get into nitpicky details as it is the simple concept that counts. If being a member of a club or association is wrong because you are being fed what unbelievers want you to believe and you are compromising your beliefs, then a university which is staunchly atheistic or secular (ie. not tolerant of Christian perspectives) is not much better. In the past I have had to write essays at school and a bit at university where I have had to 'regurgitate the rubbish' atheist teachers have shoved down my throat.


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## satz (Feb 22, 2005)

hmmm...my own opinion is, if you really want to push this to the extreme, can we work for unbelievers? Work in an organisation that employs them?
How about simply being citizens in a country that rejects God?

It seems if we push this too far we would have to leave the world completely, which we are not to do. I'am also not very sure where to draw the line...it seems to be minor associations with unbelievers are permissible...though off course we need to be wary of the influence they have on us and chose these associations with care.


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## Peter (Feb 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> This is a good question. On the one hand, we are avoid being unequally yoked with unbelievers, on the other we are to be salt and light in the world.
> 
> George Gillespie wrote a tract which I have called _Forbidden Alliances: Concerning Associations and Confederacies with Idolaters, Infidels, Heretics, or Any Other Known Enemies of Truth and Godliness_. How's that for a title?
> ...



 True, blue, covenanter


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Feb 22, 2005)

While the ideal would be that we are in the world, among unbelievers etc... and not 'effected' spiritually from it - this is not possible for most of us. Sure some Christians can do this and glory be to God because of it, but I see this as an issue of what an individual can reasonably handle. If a new believer who is easily confused or defeated in a debate and does not yet know how to stand on their own doctrinal feet joins a secular club then it is a bit of a difference between that and a seasoned believer who can hold their own doing the same thing. We all know our limits... well... maybe not... we all have limits - lets put it that way.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Feb 22, 2005)

Lets look at an example as I am afraid I did not make my point clear about limits. I have applied for secular study in an exchange programme at a university in central China. You will instantly say 'it is atheist, it is communist etc...' (well actually I am there to learn language...). Now one believer might be able to handle such an atheist surrounding while another might not. ... On a side note I better find out if their is a registered international congregation there.


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## wsw201 (Feb 23, 2005)

Fraser,

As I noted before, there is nothing inherently wrong with joining a secular club or association or attending a secular University. I have done both. 

There are many things that a person will go through in their life that will challenge their faith. This cannot be avoided. A persons faith will even be challenged within the Church (especially the Church)! At least in a secular association, you know somewhat what to expect.


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## Anton Bruckner (Nov 23, 2005)

Hi Trevor, that's one beautiful family you have there in your Avatar.


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