# Any thoughts on the Lutheran church?



## shackleton (Apr 5, 2008)

My wife's best friend just married a Lutheran pastor and so we have been spending a fair amount of time with them. Lutheran theology is right on as far as justification and salvation but seem to be arminian when it comes to _how_ one is saved, (all the behind the scene stuff that Pres. and reformed people delve into). They share the same views as all arminians in that God looks down through time and sees what is going to happen and agrees with that. Election is based on foreknowledge, the only predestination they agree with is single, God does not predetermine people to go to hell, everyone has a chance. Salvation can be lost, grace is resistible, it is effectual for everyone, salvation is determined by who decides to believe. God does not force himself on anyone.

They say outright that they do not like Calvin and his "determinism," they are not real big on God's sovereignty and their answer for hard questions seems to be "It is all a great mystery!" I was assuming they were all like Rod Rosenblatt on the White Horse Inn, but they are not. 

Any thoughts?


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## Pilgrim (Apr 5, 2008)

What kind of Lutheran? LCMS? ELCA? WELS? 

They are also going to have different views on the sacraments.


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## Gryphonette (Apr 5, 2008)

Several years ago I was involved in a debate with a new Lutheran (Missouri Synod), and it was fascinating to realize they're basically 2/5 Calvinist, in that they say they hold to total depravity and unconditional election, but then deny limited atonement, irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints.

I and a few others tried to point out this is simply illogical and a rank contradiction...one cannot say Person A doesn't resist God's grace while Person B does, yet Person A has nothing of which to boast. If the difference in whether someone is ultimately saved or not lies within the person himself, then that stomps "salvation is all of grace" right into the ground.

Didn't matter. In fact, I went to the denomination's website and found where not only are they aware their position is illogical, they positively _revel_ in it, calling it a "mystery."

Oh yes. The good ol' "mystery" card. How handy. 

Plus they're unabashed believers in baptismal regeneration.


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## JDKetterman (Apr 5, 2008)

shackleton said:


> My wife's best friend just married a Lutheran pastor and so we have been spending a fair amount of time with them. Lutheran theology is right on as far as justification and salvation but seem to be arminian when it comes to _how_ one is saved, (all the behind the scene stuff that Pres. and reformed people delve into). They share the same views as all arminians in that God looks down through time and sees what is going to happen and agrees with that. Election is based on foreknowledge, the only predestination they agree with is single, God does not predetermine people to go to hell, everyone has a chance. Salvation can be lost, grace is resistible, it is effectual for everyone, salvation is determined by who decides to believe. God does not force himself on anyone.
> 
> They say outright that they do not like Calvin and his "determinism," they are not real big on God's sovereignty and their answer for hard questions seems to be "It is all a great mystery!" I was assuming they were all like Rod Rosenblatt on the White Horse Inn, but they are not.
> 
> Any thoughts?



Actually, if you read the Lutheran confessions, they don't have an arminian view of election. However, they don't have a Reformed view of election either. Just as what makes one Reformed is the adherence to the Reformed confessions, what makes one Lutheran is one who adheres to the Lutheran confessions. The confessional view of Lutheranism is that election is single, yet it is unconditional. They believe that Salvation is determined by Grace alone, not what man chooses or what's inside of them.

They do teach though that Grace is resistable, the atonement is universal, and that you can lose your salvation. In regards to election though, they would teach that the elect will never lose their salvation. Before I became Reformed, I was LCMS for a few years. The things that I still appreciate from the tradition was the strong Law/Gospel distinction and the emphasis on Word and Sacrament. If you want to learn a little bit more about Lutheranism, going to their confessions is the best place to go: The Book of Concord


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## shackleton (Apr 5, 2008)

Mo. Synod. Yes I forgot about the sacraments. In the Lord's Supper Christ is _bodily_ around, under, over and in the bread and wine in the sense that God is everywhere and since Christ is God he is everywhere too and in that sense is in the bread and wine. (Almost like a pantheist saying that God is in everything, they say in that way Christ, who is God, is in the elements) This view of the omnipresence of Christ's body which enables it to be in the bread and wine leads them to a strange belief concerning the nature of Christ. But when pushed logically they fall back on "It is all a great mystery."


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## AV1611 (Apr 5, 2008)

shackleton said:


> Any thoughts?



Get them this to read: Bondage of the Will :: Martin Luther (1483-1546) :: Classic Authors :: Monergism Books


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## shackleton (Apr 5, 2008)

J.D. Ketterman. As a reformed person, would your feel comfortable or have any problems attending a good LCMS church?


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## Hippo (Apr 5, 2008)

AV1611 said:


> shackleton said:
> 
> 
> > Any thoughts?
> ...




I was blown away when I read this book.

I had decided that I should undersatnd Calvinism so I brought Amazon.com: The Bondage of the Will: Martin Luther: Books and Amazon.com: The Bondage and Liberation of the Will: A Defence of the Orthodox Doctrine of Human Choice against Pighius (Texts and Studies in Reformation and Post-Reformation Thought): John Calvin: Books 


Luthers book is the single most powerful book that I have read in my life, it opened my eyes to the glory of God. It is in a different league to Calvin's book which is not nearly as powerful or relevant.

It is amazing how close Luther and Calvin were when it comes to sovereign grace.


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## shackleton (Apr 5, 2008)

If the Lutherans were like Luther it would be a great church...


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## DMcFadden (Apr 5, 2008)

LCMS is a Reformational, confessional, inerrancy-upholding group of sisters and brothers. On the White Horse Inn, Rod Rosenblatt (one of my former theology profs in college) is an ordained LCMS pastor. My administrative assistant is married to a LCMS pastor. While you have nailed the points of disagreement, this is not a situation such as we have with broader evangelicalism, the emergent church, etc. With those of us on PB, the LCMS folks stand on the side of the angels against a compromising Christless Christianity.

Unfortunatley, most of the LCMS congregations are located in areas that have been in population decline. The 2008 Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches shows a loss of .94% during this last year.

Luther was exceedingly clear on the issues in *The Bondage of the Will*. However, Melancthon mucked it up as did some of the second and third generation Lutherans. The typical non-Reformed rap on Calvin is that the Beza's and Turretin's theologizing hardened Calvinism. If so, it is even more the case that the followers of Luther weakened Lutheranism.

BTW, the ELCA is a hideously mainline denomination that is more like the UCC than it is the LCMS.


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## Scott Shahan (Apr 5, 2008)

I have a friend of mine who is a LCMS pastor and he constantly fights with me on Limited Atonement.


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## Pilgrim (Apr 5, 2008)

DMcFadden said:


> LCMS is a Reformational, confessional, inerrancy-upholding group of sisters and brothers. On the White Horse Inn Rod Rosenblatt (one of my former theology profs in college) is an ordained LCMS pastor. My administrative assistant is married to a LCMS pastor. While you have nailed the points of disagreement, this is not a situation such as we have with broader evangelicalism, the emergent church, etc. With those of us on PB, the LCMS folks stand on the side of the angels against a compromising Christless Christianity.
> 
> Unfortunatley, most of the LCMS congregations are located in areas that have been in population decline. The 2008 Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches shows a loss of .94% during this last year.
> 
> ...



I agree. We also see that there is a struggle in the LCMS between confessional Lutherans and broader evangelicals who adopt seeker sensitive practices to varying degrees. Also, some Lutherans are very hostile toward Reformed theology and others have a much higher view of the Reformed churches.


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## JM (Apr 5, 2008)

shackleton said:


> If the Lutherans were like Luther it would be a great church...



That's how I feel. Luther's Lutherianism has been replaced with Melanchthonism.


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## Staphlobob (Apr 6, 2008)

From a liberal Roman, to a liberal Lutheran, to a conservative Lutheran, one can say I bought the t-shirt, wore it out and bought another. 

ELCA - bleh. Not even remotely Christian.
LMCMS/WELS/ELS - much better. But, as JM (and others) noted, it's more Melanchthonianism than Lutheranism. 

BTW ... now I'm Reformed/Presbyterian. At my age there're not many more places to go.<G>


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