# A hypothetical question..



## dudley (May 5, 2011)

A hypothetical question..if an inquiring and perhaps curious Roman catholic , maybe even a friend, were to ask you what is one aspect that you believe might convince me that the Reformed faith is the Faith of the apostles and not Roman Catholicism..how might you answer?


----------



## Osage Bluestem (May 6, 2011)

dudley said:


> A hypothetical question..if an inquiring and perhaps curious Roman catholic , maybe even a friend, were to ask you what is one aspect that you believe might convince me that the Reformed faith is the Faith of the apostles and not Roman Catholicism..how might you answer?


 
The scriptures.


----------



## Ask Mr. Religion (May 6, 2011)

dudley said:


> A hypothetical question..if an inquiring and perhaps curious Roman catholic , maybe even a friend, were to ask you what is one aspect that you believe might convince me that the Reformed faith is the Faith of the apostles and not Roman Catholicism..how might you answer?


The same teaching from Scripture that convinced Luther: Romans 1:17.

AMR


----------



## Scott1 (May 6, 2011)

Justification by faith (in Christ's righteousness) alone, which is the gospel,
and
The authority of Scripture (sola scriptura).

There are many Bible verses that illustrate this, as well as the context of Scripture.

Remember, logically, to avoid these is to argue that Christ's sacrifice is insufficient and that the traditions of men have more authority than the Word of God. 

Neither is sustainable logically, let alone by Scripture, including what came by the Apostles (or Prophets).


----------



## ddharr (May 6, 2011)

Westminster Confession of Faith and the cloud of witnesses that follow


----------



## KaphLamedh (May 6, 2011)

Instead of good works and other catholic ways to salvation must be replaced by Christ. Like in the Martin Luther movie from 1953, Luther says that: "Man only needs Jesus Christ (for salvation)" and that is to be found from the Scriptures. Jan Hus said that :"There is only one mediator between the God and a man, and that's man Jesus Christ" and them Hus was condemned as a heretic and burn on the stake. William Tyndale said that "by faith (in Jesus Christ) only man is saved." I took those from Reformation Overview series, which I watched just few days ago. Can be found from YouTube also.


----------



## Reformed Thomist (May 6, 2011)

The Biblical Gospel -- of which _Sola Fide_ is an essential part -- is what needs to be communicated first and foremost. Your average convinced Roman Catholic is basically a Semi-Pelagian sacerdotalist, to whom the Biblical Gospel is an unknown or foreign element.* I don't see how one could become convinced of the Reformed faith without first coming to terms with this.


*In general, Roman Catholics (like the Eastern Orthodox, and, to a lesser extent, Arminian evangelicals) approach salvation in a rather 'worldly' (non/anti-Biblical) way. If they reject the Biblical Gospel it is because it doesn't 'make sense' -- it is _counterintuitive_ to say that there is nothing we can do to earn or co-earn our salvation. In the 'real world', normally it is the case that success/reward requires hard work; and so, in the spiritual realm, it should be the same way. This is the essence of _religion_, from Hinduism to Judaism to Islam to corrupted forms of the Christian faith. _Religious_ man, in his various guises, is only comfortable when relying upon his own efforts, _doing_ religious works in seeking God's favor.

Authentic Christianity, of course, is set apart from all religions by the Gospel of grace. The Biblical Gospel _is_ radically counterintuitive, anti-worldly, and incoherent in the eyes of worldly religious man; thus, Paul says that "the word of the cross is _folly_ to those who are perishing" (1 Cor. 1:18) and "God chose what is _foolish_ in the world to shame the wise" (1. Cor. 1:27).


----------



## Jack K (May 6, 2011)

dudley said:


> ...were to ask you what is one aspect that you believe might convince me...



If you want to _convince_ them, you must start with the gospel of justification by grace through faith. You must end with this gospel, too. And you must touch on it many times in between. Why? Because this is the power of God for salvation. Anything else might be helpful, but will be missing the main point if not put in the context of the gospel.


----------



## Rev. Todd Ruddell (May 6, 2011)

Dudley, I would recommend Dr. Reymond's fine book "The Reformation's Conflict with Rome, and why it must continue". There are several good reasons in that book, as Dr. Reymond takes a critical look at the contradictory teaching within the RCC itself, and its many contradictions with Scripture. Further, it begins with a very irenic invitation to a Roman Catholic who is considering reading the book.


----------



## dudley (May 6, 2011)

Ask Mr. Religion said:


> dudley said:
> 
> 
> > A hypothetical question..if an inquiring and perhaps curious Roman catholic , maybe even a friend, were to ask you what is one aspect that you believe might convince me that the Reformed faith is the Faith of the apostles and not Roman Catholicism..how might you answer?
> ...



I agree with you ...Romans 1:17 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

---------- Post added at 12:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:37 AM ----------




Rev. Todd Ruddell said:


> Dudley, I would recommend Dr. Reymond's fine book "The Reformation's Conflict with Rome, and why it must continue". There are several good reasons in that book, as Dr. Reymond takes a critical look at the contradictory teaching within the RCC itself, and its many contradictions with Scripture. Further, it begins with a very irenic invitation to a Roman Catholic who is considering reading the book.



Thank you brother Todd....I am going to get the book....the reason I asked the question is that I have a roman catholic friend who is considering exploring the Presbyterian church and may even join me for services one Sunday..I am going to get the book "The Reformation's Conflict with Rome".....thank you all for sharing..I did use alreadt the Protestant doctrine of Justification with him....


----------



## MMasztal (May 6, 2011)

What got me out of Roman Catholicism was my spiritual regeneration and the realization that the Bible was the word of God. For me, reading the Bible revealed the reformed faith to me.


----------



## dudley (May 6, 2011)

MMasztal said:


> What got me out of Roman Catholicism was my spiritual regeneration and the realization that the Bible was the word of God. For me, reading the Bible revealed the reformed faith to me.


 
Amen Brother Michael I too as an ex roman catholic turned Protestant like you can relate totolly to that also..sola scriptura....catholics do not know the bible... i too received a spiritual regeneration reeading and studying the bible..i still atten bible class every Thursday night at the Presbyterian church...


----------



## Andres (May 6, 2011)

dudley said:


> if an inquiring and perhaps curious Roman catholic , maybe even a friend, were to ask you what is one aspect that you believe might convince me that the Reformed faith is the Faith of the apostles and not Roman Catholicism..how might you answer?



I would answer by inviting them to examine the scriptures with me. I believe the onus is actually on them to show how/where Roman Catholicism is derived from scripture. When a RC actually begins to read the bible, I think many are shocked to find that the majority of the RC practices are not found anywhere in God's Word. As others have already stated RC's just don't read their bibles. I grew up in the RC church and it wasn't until I was 18 years of age that I ever opened a bible! 
My experience has been when discussing our disagreements with those of the RC church, they tend to fall back on papal infallibility. They will argue that Peter was the first pope and that he and all popes after him are God's vicar on earth. They essentially use papal infallibilty as a crutch because they know Scripture does not back up their beliefs. If you can get your friend to dig into God's Word and more importantly to accept it as God's authority, then it shouldn't be long before your friend finds his RC belief system coming unglued.


----------



## Ask Mr. Religion (May 7, 2011)

The Catholic must be able to show that an attribute of God, infallibility, is one that can be delegated. Yet, we know that _all attributes of God inhere one another_, indeed, _God is His attributes_. If a man, e.g., the Pope, can be shown to be infallible, then that _man_ is actually God Almighty. Moreover, infallibility is not a decomposition, that is, an attribute particular to a single aspect, as in only matters of the faith, of one's being. Thus claims that the Pope is _infallible_ when speaking _ex cathedra_ (i.e., _from the chair_) fail in the face of a proper understanding of theology proper (_the doctrine of God_). If the odd notion of dual infallibility exists, that is, the created and the Creator can be infallible, then we have a violation of the law of contradiction.

AMR


----------



## dudley (May 7, 2011)

Ask Mr. Religion said:


> The Catholic must be able to show that an attribute of God, infallibility, is one that can be delegated. Yet, we know that _all attributes of God inhere one another_, indeed, _God is His attributes_. If a man, e.g., the Pope, can be shown to be infallible, then that _man_ is actually God Almighty. Moreover, infallibility is not a decomposition, that is, an attribute particular to a single aspect, as in only matters of the faith, of one's being. Thus claims that the Pope is _infallible_ when speaking _ex cathedra_ (i.e., _from the chair_) fail in the face of a proper understanding of theology proper (_the doctrine of God_). If the odd notion of dual infallibility exists, that is, the created and the Creator can be infallible, then we have a violation of the law of contradiction.
> 
> AMR


 
Amen and I agree completely. I reject the rc teaching that when the pope speaks ex cathedra from the chair of Peter on Faith and morals he is infallibe..I renounce that teaching and basically most everything papist that goes above and beyond scripture and in this case as you said ..it defies the logic of the finite man..the pope..joining witht infinite God and thus making the pope a God...I find so many things now about roman catholicism reepulsive ...and he is really the bishop of Rome...I don't like even using the word pope ..becase it means 'Father" and I will not call any man Father...that is reservesd for God the Father in heaven...I do not believe the pope is the vicar of Christ and I renounce him ..it is why I renounce the pope openly as did the reformers and the Roman catholic church and catholicism.....it is why I have embraced the Reformed Faith and Protestantism. It is another of so many reasons why I am now a Presbyterian....


----------



## Reformed Thomist (May 7, 2011)

Andres said:


> I believe the onus is actually on them to show how/where Roman Catholicism is derived from scripture. When a RC actually begins to read the bible, I think many are shocked to find that the majority of the RC practices are not found anywhere in God's Word.


 
When I was a Romanist, I probably would have responded to this thusly: Scripture is a product of the _Church_, and not vice-versa. 

The Roman Catholic is comfortable with various of his beliefs/practices not being found in Scripture, because his 'philosophy' of Scripture and his ecclesiology is quite different from ours. Scripture is the Word of God, yes, but so is the Tradition from which the codified Bible sprang; Sacred Scripture and Divine Tradition, together, are the Word of God. Not finding 'justification' for an RC belief/practice in the Bible is no sweat, because it is a matter of Tradition. For the Roman Catholic to look to Scripture to "see where Roman Catholicism is derived," as a method, would be rather foreign to his overall theology. The Catholic Church is not some denomination, like the PCA, founded on the basis of the Bible. The _Church_, instituted by Christ and guided by Him through the ages, is the pillar and bulwark of truth; the Bible is just one product of Her, etc., etc.

The real task for us is to demonstrate to the Roman Catholic that Scripture is _above_ tradition in authority: Scripture is infallible, while tradition, though valuable/authoritative, is not; thus, where instances of tradition (beliefs/practices) are in conflict with Scripture, Scripture wins.


----------



## dudley (May 27, 2011)

dudley said:


> A hypothetical question..if an inquiring and perhaps curious Roman catholic , maybe even a friend, were to ask you what is one aspect that you believe might convince me that the Reformed faith is the Faith of the apostles and not Roman Catholicism..how might you answer?



I shared the following piece with a Roman Catholic friend who lives in New York and it convinced him to look further and he and his wife are now attending services at his local Presbyterian church and they are thinking of going to an inquirers class.

Although for hundreds of years the Roman Catholic Church has given honor and adoration to Mary that the Scriptures do not, during the past fifty years, one of the most important trends in the Catholic Church has been an even greater emphasis upon the place of Mary. 

It is one of the many reasons I left the Roman catholic church and became a Protestant.

By the titles of Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate, the Roman Catholic Church means that salvation for everyone would be obtained through Mary, and not directly from Jesus Christ. While this is in fact already taught by the Catholic Church, and has been for many years, it is not yet formally defined as binding dogma, though some Catholics feel it has already achieved that status. Here are examples of this teaching, the first two are papal encyclicals:
5. If in all this series of Mysteries, Venerable Brethren, are developed the counsels of God in regard to us -- "counsels of wisdom and of tenderness" (St. Bernard) -- not less apparent is the greatness of the benefits for which we are debtors to the Virgin Mother. No man can meditate upon these without feeling a new awakening in his heart of confidence that he will certainly obtain through Mary the fullness of the mercies of God. And to this end vocal prayer chimes well with the Mysteries. First, as is meet and right, comes the Lord's Prayer, addressed to Our Father in Heaven: and having, with the elect petitions dictated by Our Divine Master, called upon the Father, from the throne of His Majesty we turn our prayerful voices to Mary. Thus is confirmed that law of merciful meditation of which We have spoken, and which St. Bernardine of Siena thus expresses: "Every grace granted to man has three degrees in order; for by God it is communicated to Christ, from Christ it passes to the Virgin, and from the Virgin it descends to us."

This is heretical and blasphemous. Mary was a sinner who was saved by grace in the same manner of any sinner who trusts Jesus Christ for salvation. The Bible says absolutely nothing about her beyond this. She is not the Mother of God or Ever Virgin or the Queen of Heaven or Co-Redemptress with Christ. She cannot hear or answer prayer, which is a prerogative of Almighty God alone. The Apostles taught absolutely nothing about "Marian worship." Men do not need Mary to bring them to Christ. The needy sinner comes directly to the Lord Jesus Christ, the sole Mediator between God and men: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time" (1 Tim. 2:5-6). Christ promised, "COME UNTO ME, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matthew 11:28). The Bible nowhere invites men to come to Mary or to trust Mary or to pray to Mary (David Cloud, 5/7/97, FBIS).

The following random quotes from the book Ten Series of Meditations on the Mystery of the Rosary, by John Ferraro, is intended to give an overview of Roman Catholic dogma concerning the Virgin Mary. Ferraro's book was given the Nihil Obstat and the Imprimatur, which is an official statement by the Roman Catholic Church that the book "is free of doctrinal or moral error." Therefore, we can take these quotes as official Roman Catholic doctrine:
(a) She [Mary] is co-Redemptrix of the human race.

(b) The church and the saints greet her thus: "You, O Mary, together with Jesus Christ, redeemed us."

(c) God has ordained that no grace will be granted to us except through Mary. It is a doctrine preached by all the saints that no grace will come to us from heaven without passing through Mary's hands. No one will be saved nor obtain mercy except through You, O' heavenly lady. Remember this well, no one will enter heaven without passing through Mary as one would pass through a door. O' Mary, our salvation is in your hands.

(d) During His passion, Mary suffered in her heart all the pains that Jesus suffered in His body. For this reason, God exalted her so greatly.

(e) Mary is our co-Redemptrix because she gave us Jesus pledge of our salvation. Furthermore, she is co-Redemptrix of the human race, because with Christ she ransomed mankind from the power of Satan.

(f) Jesus redeemed us with the blood of His body, Mary with the agonies of her heart.

(g) We were condemned through the fault of one woman; we are saved through the merits of another woman. Just as Eve was the root of death for everyone, so Mary was the source of life for everyone.

(h) Mary is our co-Redemptrix because she suffered in her heart whatever was lacking in the passion of Christ. Are we obligated to Jesus for His passions? -- so we are indebted to Mary for her participation in His passions. She gave birth to Jesus with joy; she gave birth to us, brothers of Jesus, in anguish and sorrow.

(i) Mary, Queen of the Apostles: She is queen of apostles because she formed them and directed them in their preaching. Mary is Queen of Apostles because by herself she routed all the heresies. Mary is Queen of Apostles because she is mother of grace and channel of mercy. She is Queen of Apostles because in her every hope is life and virtue. She is Queen of Apostles because she is conqueror of the Infernal Dragon. (Emphasis added.)

(j) If we spread devotion to Mary, we will gain heaven -- "Who explains me will have life everlasting."

All of the above are blasphemous and counter the truth of salvation ,that all are saved by faith in Christ alone, one of the 5 sola’s of the Reformation that we as Protestants need to re affirm.

This is absolute blasphemy. Nowhere in the Scriptures is Mary exalted this way. Not one time do we find the Apostles or early Christians praying to her. None of the Apostolic epistles to the churches even mention her. Everything the roman catholic church says about Mary is based on human thinking apart from divine revelation.


----------



## Afterthought (May 27, 2011)

dudley said:


> Christ promised, "COME UNTO ME, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matthew 11:28).


Not meaning to throw the thread off topic, but I was actually thinking about this verse being a good one to share with those in the Roman church--or really anyone who is weary of working for salvation--and sure enough, there it was in your post! An excellent verse indeed. I'll have to keep it in mind along with some other things when speaking with friends who were part of or are part of the Roman church.


----------



## dudley (May 28, 2011)

Afterthought said:


> dudley said:
> 
> 
> > Christ promised, "COME UNTO ME, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matthew 11:28).
> ...




My dear PB brother Raymond, It is an excellent verse Matthew 11:28 to help a Roman catholic see the falacy of the Romanists. Slaves are in bondage to their master, in the case of Roman Catholicism the master is really Satan, not Christ. The false Gospel of Satan is that Christ redemptive act on Calvary was not enough to save man; he must be constantly working for his own salvation...some end up despairing and are this lost to hell...exactly what Satan wants....those who are lost die unto sin not understanding that we can not save ourselves and they have never been taught or given the Good News that Christ saves us by placing our faith in Him alone, not Mary, not the saints, not the pope, not the rcc, it is faith in Christ alone that saves us. Also I add the following verses when trying to convert a Roman catholic to the Reformed faith and Protestantism. 
Romans 5:1 
Results of Justification 1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, 1bwe have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 
Romans 3:28 
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 
2 Corinthians 5:21 
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 
1 Peter 2:24 
24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. 

Catholics do not really know the bible and Christian Apologetics well. I have initiated and helped save other Roman Catholics and leading them to depart from the Romanist papist church and be born again in the Protestant fold. They are all as thankful as I am to be a Protestant now and free from the bondage of popery and a church which is really a Harlot of Satan.. The core of the Romanist church comprising the Pope and the curia is corrupt in doctrine. On the circumference are many sincere souls to whom the call is made, Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues (Rev 18:4).


----------

