# is reprobation unconditional



## Matthew1344 (Mar 16, 2014)

Is reprobation *unconditional?*

I am having a meeting with my pastor about this soon. He is calvinist but I do not think he believes in double predestination. 
As of right now i do believe in it. But I would like some insight on what my PB brothers think before I do this. 

Do you believe in it? yes? no? why?


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Mar 16, 2014)

What you mean by "double predestination" will have bearing on who believes or does not believe in this. Do you mean the equal ultimacy version of double predestination?

"Double" Predestination by R.C. Sproul


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## Matthew1344 (Mar 16, 2014)

im sorry let me clarify 

I think that my pastor does not believe that God *unconditionally*predetermined people to be reprobate. 

And correct me if i am wrong but he unconditionally predetermined people to election not based on any foreseen virtuous act in us. So my question is, do he do the same for the reprobate? Does he unconditionally predetermined people to destruction not based on any foreseen wicked act in them. 

What do yall think?


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## Jash Comstock (Mar 16, 2014)

I believe in conditional reprobation. We cannot draw a parallel between the predestination of the elect and the predestination of the non-elect. That being said, I do think God took into account the sin of the reprobate when He predestined him to damnation, but He did not base His decision on man's actual sin in time but rather he based it on His own foreordination of the fall. Put another way, God condemned the reprobate because He foreordained the fall, and knowing man would fall, thus satisfied His justice and glorifies Himself as Judge by condemning him to reprobation. Seeing no condition whatsoever for the salvation of any, he chose the Many and thus satisfied his mercy and glorified his name as Savior by electing them to life out of His own pleasure. The reason the election of the Elect was unconditional, was because _there exists no possible condition_. 

If I am in error in my defense, I would ask for correction.


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## Matthew1344 (Mar 16, 2014)

Jash Comstock said:


> I do think God took into account the sin of the reprobate when He predestined him to damnation, but He did not base His decision on man's actual sin in time but rather he based it on His own foreordination of the fall.


 So you believe he planned the fall and distruction of men before he planned election of men?

Thank you so much for your reply Jash. This is helping me see it from another angle 
The last thing i want to do is be wrong in my thinking. That is why I am working it out every day!


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## Jash Comstock (Mar 16, 2014)

Matthew1344 said:


> So you believe he planned the fall and distruction of men before he planned election of men?



I think this is an application of an anthropomorphism to the mind of God. He is above and beyond time, I don't think we see that much clarification of a "timeline" in scripture. What we do see is that damnation is punishment for sin, therefore I would believe that the ordination of that damnation was a result of, and justified by the condition ( i.e. the ordination and subsequent results of the fall).


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## JimmyH (Mar 16, 2014)

If I recall correctly my pastor, in addressing this in Bible study said that since all mankind is dead in trespasses and sin, under the wrath of God, it is not unjust for God to doom all to perdition. That by His grace He chooses some vessels to honor, while leaving others to dishonor, is not incongruous.


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## Matthew1344 (Mar 16, 2014)

JimmyH said:


> If I recall correctly


 what does that mean?


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## JimmyH (Mar 16, 2014)

Matthew1344 said:


> JimmyH said:
> 
> 
> > If I recall correctly
> ...



If I remember correctly.


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## earl40 (Mar 16, 2014)

Reprobation like Justification is not based on works. Our Justification is based on the work of Jesus. One's reprobation is based on Adam's work. So the destination to heaven or hell in not based (or conditioned) on anything other than the work of Jesus or Adam.


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Mar 16, 2014)

Matthew1344 said:


> Jash Comstock said:
> 
> 
> > I do think God took into account the sin of the reprobate when He predestined him to damnation, but He did not base His decision on man's actual sin in time but rather he based it on His own foreordination of the fall.
> ...


Now you are asking about the logical order of the decree:

http://www.romans45.org/articles/sup_infr.htm

Where are you in the chart provided at the link above?


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## Peairtach (Mar 16, 2014)

Reprobation consists of two aspects: preterition or passing over and, or unto, condemnation. Salvation is election unto glorification.

Preterition is unconditional in the sense that God does not pass over persons for election because they are worse than the elect. Some of them may - because of common grace- be better than the elect before the saving grace of God works in the elect.

Preterition is unto condemnation and the level of condemnation is dependent upon how the non-elect live their lives, so condemnation is conditional.

Although election and preterition are unconditional on anything good or bad in us, this does not mean that they are capricious or random, or do not comport with the divine attributes, including God's wisdom.

I briefly gleaned this from Shedd's "Calvinism: Pure and Mixed" and am not as clear about it as I would like to be.

Someone with a fuller understanding of these things can correct anything possibly erroneous or infelicitously put, or can augment what I've said.



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## MW (Mar 16, 2014)

One must distinguish between the decree and the thing decreed. The decree itself is unconditional, as WCF 3.2 states. It will certainly come to pass because God has decreed it. This decree includes "others foreordained to everlasting death," as intimated by section 3. Hence the decree of reprobation is unconditional. The thing decreed, however, includes certain conditions and relations which are also decreed. Hence section 7 states that God was pleased "to ordain them to dishonour and wrath, for their sin." Sin is decreed as the reason why those ordained to everlasting death are punished.


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## Matthew1344 (Mar 17, 2014)

Anyone read this aw pink writing? I am loving it and i think it gives good answers.
5. The Sovereignty of God in Reprobation


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## Matthew1344 (Mar 17, 2014)

I think I am supra


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## Toasty (Mar 17, 2014)

Man did not decide who God would reprobate. God decided whom He would reprobate. Man did not decide that for God. Man did not influence God's decision.


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## Matthew1344 (Mar 17, 2014)

earl40 said:


> Reprobation like Justification is not based on works. Our Justification is based on the work of Jesus. One's reprobation is based on Adam's work. So the destination to heaven or hell in not based (or conditioned) on anything other than the work of Jesus or Adam.


 but what about Adam... his judgment would have been conditioned upon what he did. So if he died and went to hell it would have been conditional.


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## Matthew1344 (Mar 17, 2014)

Toasty said:


> Man did not decide who God would reprobate. God decided whom He would reprobate. Man did not decide that for God. Man did not influence God's decision.


 is this supra?


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## Peairtach (Mar 18, 2014)

Matthew1344 said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> > Reprobation like Justification is not based on works. Our Justification is based on the work of Jesus. One's reprobation is based on Adam's work. So the destination to heaven or hell in not based (or conditioned) on anything other than the work of Jesus or Adam.
> ...



God determined what would happen unconditionally according to His good pleasure, but by means of Man's will which He sovereignly established as naturally and ethically free, although it became ethically bound after the Fall.

In this sense the particular condemnation of the reprobate, where in Hell they spend eternity, is in their own hands, unless we deny that Man has a will at all, which is hard-determinism and Hyper-Calvinism.

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## Peairtach (Mar 18, 2014)

Matthew1344 said:


> Toasty said:
> 
> 
> > Man did not decide who God would reprobate. God decided whom He would reprobate. Man did not decide that for God. Man did not influence God's decision.
> ...



It is compatible with either supra or infra. It's just common or garden Calvinism.

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## earl40 (Mar 18, 2014)

Matthew1344 said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> > Reprobation like Justification is not based on works. Our Justification is based on the work of Jesus. One's reprobation is based on Adam's work. So the destination to heaven or hell in not based (or conditioned) on anything other than the work of Jesus or Adam.
> ...



God decreed Adam to sin, and based on this decree Adam fell because he sinned. Like Adam we all fell (in Adam) and much of humanity was ordained or decreed to believe (election unto justification). The rest of humanity God was pleased to allow them to stay in their sin (a negative decree if you will) and suffer the wrath of God for the sin they commit.

Now Adam, who was created good, did what was natural (eat of a fruit) which because it did not meet the standard (God's command) he did not heed the spiritual good to not eat.


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## Matthew1344 (Mar 18, 2014)

earl40 said:


> God decreed Adam to sin, and based on this decree Adam fell because he sinned.



So you are saying unconditional reprobation? God decreed for reprobate to be reprobate as a means to the fall?


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## earl40 (Mar 18, 2014)

Matthew1344 said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> > God decreed Adam to sin, and based on this decree Adam fell because he sinned.
> ...



All (Adam, Eve, and the rest of humanity) were decreed to be fallen. I believe reprobation is a different cagagory in that all the unelect are reprobates. in my opinion I believe God had all this in "mind" before He decreed (supralapsarianism). Though the supra infra discussions usually go over my head.

So reprobation to hell is based on the sin of Adam and salvation or justification is based on the work of Jesus. The amount of punishment in hell is based on the reprobates work, as is the reward in heaven is based on the works done in faith for the elect by His grace.


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## KGP (Mar 18, 2014)

armourbearer said:


> One must distinguish between the decree and the thing decreed. The decree itself is unconditional, as WCF 3.2 states. It will certainly come to pass because God has decreed it. This decree includes "others foreordained to everlasting death," as intimated by section 3. Hence the decree of reprobation is unconditional. The thing decreed, however, includes certain conditions and relations which are also decreed. Hence section 7 states that God was pleased "to ordain them to dishonour and wrath, for their sin." Sin is decreed as the reason why those ordained to everlasting death are punished.



Read this again, this sums it this whole discussion succinctly.

Psalm 17:14 - "With Your hand, LORD , save me from men, from men of the world whose portion is in this life: You fill their bellies with what You have in store; their sons are satisfied, and they leave their surplus to their children."

I often think of this verse in discussions on this topic. The human race, having sinned in Adam, is deserving always and only of wrath. God, for his own purposes and according to his own pleasure, allots a portion to each sinner. For some, their portion is in this life, for others, their portion is in the life to come. He did not consider any quality or characteristic in either group when determining each mans portion; thus entirely unconditional on the individual and only conditional on the purpose of God.

Those whose lot is in this life are reprobate concerning the faith; God was not obligated to give them anything, let alone faith, and as a man can receive nothing unless it is given him from heaven; the reprobate will never attain more than what they have been given.


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