# What is the Absolute worst Book you have ever read?



## C. Matthew McMahon (Apr 30, 2004)

I was thinking about it.....

I would probably go with the Works of Arminius, but I am undecided. There was another on the Holy Spirit that was pathetic, but I can't remember the author.....I'll think more.

What do you think? What is the absolute worst book you ever read as a Christian?

[Edited on 4-30-2004 by fredtgreco]


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## fredtgreco (Apr 30, 2004)

[quote:5160bab035][i:5160bab035]Originally posted by webmaster[/i:5160bab035]
I was thinking about it.....

I would probably go with the Works of Arminius, but I am undecided. There was another on the Holy Spirit that was pathetic, but I cna't remember the author.....I'll think more.

What do you think? What is the absolute worst book you ever read as a Christian? [/quote:5160bab035]

I don't read much that is bad unless compelled, so I would say &quot;The Doctrine of the Knowledge of God&quot; by Frame. By the end, I would have gladly done an Oedipus if that would have burned the memory of the book from my mind.


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## ChristianasJourney (Apr 30, 2004)

I read one on why &quot;alcohol is bad&quot; that I thought was pretty pathatic. Mind you, I'm a teetotaler myself. But this guy's logic went running around in circles, and the scriptures he mentioned really had nothing to do with the points he was making. in my opinion it was really bad.


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## BrianLanier (Apr 30, 2004)

[quote:c204279c20][i:c204279c20]Originally posted by fredtgreco[/i:c204279c20]

I don't read much that is bad unless compelled, so I would say &quot;The Doctrine of the Knowledge of God&quot; by Frame. By the end, I would have gladly done an Oedipus if that would have burned the memory of the book from my mind.
[/quote:c204279c20]

A friend bought that book for me. I haven't read it yet. So I shouldn't read it. What in it would make it so troubling?

Thanks 
Brian


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## Reena Wilms (Apr 30, 2004)

Dear fredgreco,

You wrote :

&quot; I don't read much that is bad unless compelled, so I would say &quot;The Doctrine of the Knowledge of God&quot; by Frame...&quot;

Why do you think this book so worse, i really like to know ?
( i ordered it, but did not received it yet)

Ralph


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## kceaster (Apr 30, 2004)

*God Chasers....*

'nuff said.

KC


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## Puritan Sailor (Apr 30, 2004)

Works of Arminius, Finney's Sytematic Theology, and Tuesdays with Morrie


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## Len (Apr 30, 2004)

The Book of Mormon (excepting those portions lifted from the Scriptures). There's a reason Mark Twain referred to it as &quot;chloroform in print.&quot; I read &quot;And it came to pass...&quot; till my eyes started to bleed. To use Twain again, he said if you took out that phrase you'd actually have the Pamphlet of Mormon.

[Edited on 4-30-2004 by Len]


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## Preach (Apr 30, 2004)

Fred,
What's wrong with the Frame book? I read part of it about a year ago, but didn't finish. Thanks.


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## Learner (Apr 30, 2004)

&quot;Predestined for Hell?&quot;by John R.Rice.I bought it years ago knowing it would be terrible.I just wanted to know the
thinking behind that mindset.That book was sooo bad.I
underlined and made comments all the way through as if he
was next to me.Tons of Scripture verses he used were twisted out of shape.So many of his statements are so easily
refuted.It got me worked up.The folks that believe this stuff!


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## Learner (Apr 30, 2004)

Patrick,did you ever read Finney's &quot;Sinners: bound to change their own hearts&quot;?


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## brymaes (Apr 30, 2004)

[i:737e6e42f8]Living Water[/i:737e6e42f8] by Chuck Smith.


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## Puritan Sailor (Apr 30, 2004)

[quote:b3d5cd1665][i:b3d5cd1665]Originally posted by Learner[/i:b3d5cd1665]
Patrick,did you ever read Finney's &quot;Sinners: bound to change their own hearts&quot;? [/quote:b3d5cd1665]

No. I have Finney's Systematic Theology, Memoirs, and Lectures on Revivals of Religion.

I made it about half way through his Memoirs and got frustrated. It's interesting from a historical point of view, or at least from Finney's point of view. But his memoirs were written at th end of his life and I think he reinterprets much of his doctrinal heresies back into his early years when in reality I don't think his thoughts were that developed so early on. No one questioned his orthodoxy until later in his life, only his methods. 
His Systematic theology and Revivals of Religion I use strictly for reference.


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## sundoulos (Apr 30, 2004)

The Koran -- makes the Book of Mormon look like literature.


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## fredtgreco (Apr 30, 2004)

[quote:8da484a393][i:8da484a393]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:8da484a393]
what's wrong with DKG, Fred???

I mean no one is perfect but that book was awesome. [/quote:8da484a393]

Ok, since so many have asked, here's why:




[*:8da484a393]At least when I read Finney or Arminius, I gain some insight into their (wrong) theology and can be assisted in refuting it.
[*:8da484a393]There is nothing Frame couldn't say in 2 sentences that he doesn't take 4 pages to say. Anyone who criticized the Puritans for being verbose should really read 10 pages of Frame that really end up saying, &quot;this isn't important&quot; or &quot;I don't know&quot;
[*:8da484a393]Frame specializes in majoring on minor, almost practically insignificant points of definitions of logic (which make me want to blow my head off) and then sweeps away critical issues like the ordo salutis with a &quot;who cares&quot;
[*:8da484a393]To be honest, I don't think I've ever read anyone who appears to like to hear themselves as much
[*:8da484a393]The book is just (plain) mind-numbingly boring.
[/list:8da484a393]


I know I've read books I disagree with more - we all have. But I don't think I've ever read that I felt was more purposeless, more a complete waste of my time than that book. My time is very valuable to me, and I really can;t be bothered listening to people pontificate about how they are so much better and smarter than everyone else because [b:8da484a393]everyone else[/b:8da484a393] pontificates.

And I should be clear: it is NOT the worst book I have ever read from a content standpoint, not even the worst Frame book (they should burn every copy of his book on worship) . I'm talking strictly from a complete wast of time and style standpoint.

Ugghh. If I had to read that books again, I think give up reading.

[Edited on 4-30-2004 by fredtgreco]


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## sastark (Apr 30, 2004)

[i:42999a62bd]Tuesdays With Morrie
The Tao of Pooh[/i:42999a62bd]

Both were required reading for an English class at my secular University. It was amazing: the professor was a Taoist. He made us read Taoist books and write papers on them. I wonder what would happen if I were a professor and I made people write reaction papers to Edwards or Calvin, or even the New Testament!?!?

Now, to suppress the memory of those books once again...


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## Saiph (Apr 30, 2004)

Fred, 

What would you offer as an alternative to DKG ? ? ?
What should we read on the subject ? ? ?


The worst book I have read is the Bible.
It kills me everytime I pick it up. It hurts to read.
What it says about me and mankind is horrifying.

If it were not for the inward illumination of the Spirit driving me to the cross for forgiveness, I would never read it.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Apr 30, 2004)

[quote:92c7eacf75]
The worst book I have read is the Bible. 
[/quote:92c7eacf75]

Now that is something to think about.

With Patrick, I would also go with Finney as another extra.


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## FrozenChosen (Apr 30, 2004)

[i:bb5e4f2974]The Sacred Romance[/i:bb5e4f2974] by John Eldredge.

Despite his claims that he's not an open theist, he sure writes like one. It's nauseating at points, and certainly man centered.

And everyone around me is reading it and loving it.:flaming:


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## dkicklig (Apr 30, 2004)

*The Prayer of Jabez by Bruce Wilkinson*

Not only did I read it, I heard Bruce speak on it, and I worked for the author for a short time. I bailed soon after the release of Prayer of Jabez. I still have 3 copies that I'm saving for a good ol' fashioned book burning.

I don't think I even need to begin explaining the problems that this book has caused to you guys.


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## fredtgreco (Apr 30, 2004)

[quote:87984ef92f][i:87984ef92f]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:87984ef92f]
despite fred's book review I would recomend it.

It is very philosophical in nature and Frame tries to be thourough so when reading it you must buckle down and be prepared for some tough times. Wittgenstein once said that philosophy is like swimming under water. It is tough when you are under but if you hold your breath long enough you will get to the other side. 

The book rightly put human knowledge where it should be and also has a valuable course on logic. The book is endorsed by men like Bahnsen, Butler, Pratt, Trumper, Poythress, etc.

Here is one comment about the book:

The best "Reformed" contribution to the field of epistemology in many years. Frame builds upon the work of Cornelius Van Til to provide sound direction for postmodern times. This is an absolute "must read" for the thinking Christian.
-- The Discerning Reader.

Here is another:

My only regret about this book is that, most likely and most unfortunately, only those within the Reformed community will ever read it (or even hear about it)! I believe that Van Til's rich and profound thought suffered a similar fate. This is regrettable because Frame's work is so relevant for evangelicals today, esp. w/regard to epistemology and the task of theology in general, and it is so potentially fruitful! 
Nevertheless, I hope it will be able to break out of the bounds of the relatively closed, if not somewhat incestuous dialogue w/in 'reformed circles', and flow into the broader evangelical community. With regard to those voices within the reformed dialogue who have rejected Frame's work as imprecise (demonstrating to me a failure to comprehend Frame, which is difficult to do, as he is very clear -- indeed, such out-of-hand rejection strikes me as a failure to even desire to comprehend), it is, in my opinion, precisely this sort of stale element that retards the continuing (and necessary) reformation of the church, and, of course, the reformed tradition itself. Frame's work in &quot;The Doctrine of the Knowledge of God&quot; should be given serious attention by all who would seek to be more faithful as theologians subject to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, whether professional, student or 'lay'

So, get the book, and see if you enjoy it. This is probably the most thourough book on Christian epistemology and I was wondering if fred knew of a more robust one?

-Paul

p.s., Mark, I loved your statements about the Bible! [/quote:87984ef92f]

Paul,

I understand your comments, and I guess I am biased because everywhere that I have ever seen Frame &quot;refine&quot; or &quot;reform&quot; it is always for the worse. Even his summaries of Van Til's thought are not nearly as good as Bahnsen.

I'm not against thinking or philosophy (I've read almost ever Greek and Latin philosopher at one time or another in the original), but I can't get on board with focusing on epistemology at the expense of the clear systematic truth of the Bible, that Frame obviously hates so much (i.e. let's get rid of the ordo).

Hey Paul -- by the way -- I like the new picture. Call me old fashioned, but I always feel closer to someone when I know what they look like. It's good to see you, paisan!

[Edited on 4-30-2004 by fredtgreco]


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## Mary (Apr 30, 2004)

I also read the Tao of Pooh. I really like Winnie the Pooh and pals, but...what a dumb book!!

It's interesting that a couple of people said Tuesdays with Morrie. Mitch Albom is a sports columnist here in Detroit, you know. I haven't read the book, largely because he has a reputation for being a little...ahem...full of himself.

Nobody has mentioned Joseph Campbell?!?! I actually DROPPED a class because the professor went on and on about &quot;The Christian Myth&quot; based on Campbell's work. Grrr.

Len, I LOVE the Mark Twain quotes! Hilarious!

Paul Manata, 

Is your avatar actually you?!

Mary


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## Randall Pederson (Apr 30, 2004)

*Worst Book*

I'm surprised that The Works of Arminius made the list! He was a brilliant man, fully schooled in the scholastic method. If anyone thinks otherwise, read Richard Muller's book on Arminius before further judgment. That said, I disagree with much of what Arminus said, and I'm as thorough a supralapsarian Calvinist as (I suppose) one can be. 

Now, the worst book I've read was undoubtedly &quot;The Openness of God&quot; by Pinnock. The flow of thought and the logic are, to put it mildly, BARF.


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## JonathonHunt (Apr 30, 2004)

[quote:ec4a6c0d2b][i:ec4a6c0d2b]Originally posted by fredtgreco[/i:ec4a6c0d2b]
[/quote:ec4a6c0d2b]

And I should be clear: it is NOT the worst book I have ever read from a content standpoint, not even the worst Frame book (they should burn every copy of his book on worship) . 
[/quote]

Amen, Amen, Amen.

I volunteer as chief book burner!

I don't think I have ever read a bad theology book myself. I always bought books on recommendation from my former Pastor so they tended to be good. I suppose I have read 'The Nottingham Statement' written by evangelical anglicans in 1977 ... 'Seeing ourselves and Catholics as fellow brothers in Christ, we repent of any attitudes that may have seemed to suggest otherwise'

Someone catch me, I'm going to faint...


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## rembrandt (May 1, 2004)

[quote:8489127cbe]I'm surprised that The Works of Arminius made the list! He was a brilliant man, fully schooled in the scholastic method. If anyone thinks otherwise, read Richard Muller's book on Arminius before further judgment. That said, I disagree with much of what Arminus said, and I'm as thorough a supralapsarian Calvinist as (I suppose) one can be.[/quote:8489127cbe]

Yes, his works are dung eloquently served on golden plates. Or whatever it is that Luther said. 

Worst books I have read were written by 'Smith Wigglesworth.' The man is insane!


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## Fly Caster (May 1, 2004)

Hal Lindsey's [i:0e2013ea8e]The Late Great Planet Earth[/i:0e2013ea8e]. 
Spurgeon once described a book as useful only for starting fires.


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## blhowes (May 1, 2004)

[b:ba288e9419]Dogmatic Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent and Vatican Council 1[/b:ba288e9419] - Its like a line was drawn in the sand, and I was on the anathema side.

[Edited on 5-1-2004 by blhowes]


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## Scott Bushey (May 1, 2004)

This is by far the worst book I have ever laid my eye's upon. The author is out of Calvary Chapel. Splitting the book in two, the author use's all quotes from the Calvinist community. There is not one single scriptural reference offered on the Calvinist side. The second half of the book, the author attempts to dismantle Calvinism by now using scripture. When the author was confronted on the uniqeness of his formulation, he just said, &quot;This is just how I did it&quot;. Go here to see this feeble, weak attempt at undermining the word of God.

http://www.calvarychapel.com/library/bryson-george/books/fpocwafw.htm

[Edited on 5-1-2004 by Scott Bushey]


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## Irishcat922 (May 1, 2004)

Worst book I ever read was &quot; why some Christians commit adultry&quot; by John Sanford. A lot of really strange inner healing and transference of spirits Ideas. Very bizzare. The second is &quot;seven steps to being baptized with the Holy Spirit&quot; by Lester Sumrall. Fascinating.uzzled:


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## smhbbag (May 1, 2004)

Why oh why did i click the link Scott Bushey provided? 

it was just as you said, Scott:no:


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## Irishcat922 (May 1, 2004)

[quote:a8edd0eb17][i:a8edd0eb17]Originally posted by rembrandt[/i:a8edd0eb17]
[quote:a8edd0eb17]I'm surprised that The Works of Arminius made the list! He was a brilliant man, fully schooled in the scholastic method. If anyone thinks otherwise, read Richard Muller's book on Arminius before further judgment. That said, I disagree with much of what Arminus said, and I'm as thorough a supralapsarian Calvinist as (I suppose) one can be.[/quote:a8edd0eb17]

Yes, his works are dung eloquently served on golden plates. Or whatever it is that Luther said. 

Worst books I have read were written by 'Smith Wigglesworth.' The man is insane! [/quote:a8edd0eb17]
Are you sure about Wigglesworth I was told by an Elder in a charismatic church that Wigglesworth was quite possibly the greatest Theologian that ever lived.


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## Timothy William (May 2, 2004)

The Power of Positive Thinking by Norman Vincent Peale. My Mum made me read it when I was about 15; even as a then unconverted 15 yr old in an Anglican church I could see that it was sub-christian rubbish. Had the benefit of pointing me towards believing Total Depravity (not that that is what I would have called it then) which later played a large role in my being converted, and then later on in becoming a Calvinist.

That said, the book was so much :blah1: it would put anyone off whatever the point was supposed to be. but the idea that we could somehow make ourselves believe whatever we wanted, and hence become whatever we wanted, seemed silly even to me as an immature teenager.


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## Philip A (May 3, 2004)

OK I will 'fess up....

I actually tried to read Dave Hunt's [i:829bf45369]What Love is This?[/i:829bf45369].

It was so badly written, so badly reasoned, and so boldly blasphemous, that I could only get through about the first 100 pages. It should be renamed [i:829bf45369]Exegetical Gymnastics for Dummies[/i:829bf45369].


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