# Gaming



## MrMerlin777 (Aug 25, 2008)

Just a thought comming off of the lottery thread.

Is all gaming sin? (cards etc) If not, where is the line? If so why?


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## ColdSilverMoon (Aug 25, 2008)

I see nothing in Scripture that forbids gambling per se. As long as gambling is viewed as entertainment along the lines of going to the movies, playing miniature golf, etc, I can't think of why it would be a sin. If it becomes an addiction or interferes with tithes & offerings, it becomes a problem. 

In short, gambling in moderation for entertainment is acceptable.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Aug 25, 2008)

Gambling is a violation of the 8th Commandment.

Also see WSC #73-75 and WLC #140-142.


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## Ex Nihilo (Aug 25, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Gambling is a violation of the 8th Commandment.
> 
> Also see WSC #73-75 and WLC #140-142.



But does the prohibition of "wasteful gaming" in WLC #142 imply that not all gaming is wasteful, and that non-wasteful gaming is not prohibited? Otherwise, the word _wasteful_ would be superfluous. . .


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## MrMerlin777 (Aug 25, 2008)

Ex Nihilo said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
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Interesting.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Aug 25, 2008)

Two things, first what is the purpose of gambling? The base purpose of gambling is to accrue monetary worth without the requisite value of work which is a clear violation of the 8th commandment. Secondly spending money on games of chance is wasteful spending. See J.G. Vos' commentary on Q. 142 for more.


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## Davidius (Aug 25, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Two things, first what is the purpose of gambling? The base purpose of gambling is to accrue monetary worth without the requisite value of work which is a *clear violation* of the 8th commandment. Secondly spending money on games of chance is wasteful spending. See J.G. Vos' commentary on Q. 142 for more.



Clear to whom?

What exactly is wasteful spending? If I spend money at a blackjack table to get 2 hours of entertainment instead of at a movie theater, am I wasting money instead of spending it "wisely" at the theater? Or is all expenditure on recreation frivolous?


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## Ex Nihilo (Aug 25, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Two things, first what is the purpose of gambling? *The base purpose of gambling is to accrue monetary worth without the requisite value of work* which is a clear violation of the 8th commandment. Secondly spending money on games of chance is wasteful spending. See J.G. Vos' commentary on Q. 142 for more.



Good point. There is a distinction between games of pure chance (slot machines) and games that combine skill and chance (poker, blackjack, etc.), but even so, I can see a good argument that in gambling, most people necessarily lose, and nothing useful is produced -- unless you count the entertainment value for all the players as something useful.

I'm not sure what I think about this, so I'm very interested to see how this thread unfolds.


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## ColdSilverMoon (Aug 25, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Two things, first what is the purpose of gambling? The base purpose of gambling is to accrue monetary worth without the requisite value of work which is a clear violation of the 8th commandment. Secondly spending money on games of chance is wasteful spending. See J.G. Vos' commentary on Q. 142 for more.



The purpose of gambling isn't necessarily to "accrue monetary worth." I never expect to win $400 million on the rare occasion I purchase a lotto ticket, nor do I hope to become a millionaire after a few hands of blackjack - it's more for thinking about what I would do if I did win that provides the entertainment. But even if one were to make money on gambling, if they have a system or strategy, isn't that requisite work? Isn't counting cards a developed skill that takes time and energy? Haven't they earned their winnings?

Also, if spending $1 on a lotto ticket is wasteful, what about buying a pack of gum, a soft drink, or an ice cream cone? Are those things "wasteful" as well? If they are, then I would simply disagree that God expects us to be so rigid with our money. If they aren't, then I would ask what the difference is between those items and a lotto ticket or a hand at the tables?


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## Athaleyah (Aug 25, 2008)

I think any kind of gaming where you benefit from someone else's loss is wrong. So playing cards with plastic chips with no monetary value is just for fun, but playing the lottery where the entirety of your winnings comes from other people's losses is wrong. Especially in the case of the lottery, it is often the people who can least afford it that buy lottery tickets hoping to get rich. I could not in good conscience benefit from that.

But I play monopoly and other board games and cards without any qualms so long as they are not getting in the way of time I should be spending in the Word or studying theology. For me, in the past computer games have been a vice that took up 8-10 hours a day of my time, and that was wrong of me. I generally avoid computer games now because I have a tendency to use them irresponsibly, and lead myself into sin.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Aug 25, 2008)

Davidius said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
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> > Two things, first what is the purpose of gambling? The base purpose of gambling is to accrue monetary worth without the requisite value of work which is a *clear violation* of the 8th commandment. Secondly spending money on games of chance is wasteful spending. See J.G. Vos' commentary on Q. 142 for more.
> ...



Surely you can see the difference between gambling and watching a movie. The Scriptures speak against in a number of places (WLC Q. 142 cites these particularly) the gathering of wealth by not giving equal value for the pay rendered.


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## gene_mingo (Aug 25, 2008)

What about spending 25 cents on the video slot machine at the bar so you don't have to pay the two dollars for the beer?


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## ColdSilverMoon (Aug 25, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Surely you can see the difference between gambling and watching a movie. The Scriptures speak against in a number of places (WLC Q. 142 cites these particularly) the gathering of wealth by not giving equal value for the pay rendered.



But who determines equal value for pay? One could even make the argument that the act of gambling itself is requisite work....


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## Scott Shahan (Aug 25, 2008)

like dave Ramsey said in his book, "the lottery is a rich man's tax". The rich don't waste their money on it, they do their math.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Aug 25, 2008)

ColdSilverMoon said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
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> > Surely you can see the difference between gambling and watching a movie. The Scriptures speak against in a number of places (WLC Q. 142 cites these particularly) the gathering of wealth by not giving equal value for the pay rendered.
> ...



Do you think playing games of chance is "work"? 

In other words do you think it is of equal value to be paid $10,000 for pulling a slot lever when others have to work 8 months or more to earn that amount? 

Another argument against gambling is that it violates the 10th Commandment against Coveting.


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## ChristianTrader (Aug 25, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


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What do you think about investing in the stock market?

CT


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Aug 25, 2008)

ChristianTrader said:


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There is a difference both in scope and in purpose to day trading and pulling slots and/or playing cards.


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## ChristianTrader (Aug 25, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


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Okay, so how is the scope and purpose different?

CT


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## Jon Peters (Aug 25, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


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Is the receipt of money (or something else of value) by gift from someone else also sinful? No value was given in consideration for the gift.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Aug 25, 2008)

Jon Peters said:


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Do the Scriptures speak against the giving of gifts?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Aug 25, 2008)

ChristianTrader said:


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_(Before someone points it out yes I know there is a difference between day trading and other forms of stock transfers)_

What is the "purpose" of Day Trading? Are the vocational habits of a Day Trader by nature unbiblical? How are Day Trading and gambling related?


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## Honor (Aug 25, 2008)

day trading is for white collar folks and slot machines are for... well, everyone.
Angela, every time you play a game you are benefiting from someones loss... that's called winning.
Mr. Glaser, with all due respect, gambling isn't any more stealing than the movie theaters charging $4!!!!!!! for a SMALL coke.

You pay someone for an opportunity to develop and enjoy a skill and in so doing you may or may not gain some money.

I think that no one has really touched on the fact that it's a heart matter. ANYTHING can be a sin.... Anything that you place as more important than GOD, or you place higher than your relationship with God. That could be gambling, could be your wife. could be going to church.done with the wrong heart it's trash before God. 

Also, one note, Mr. Backwoods, you said:


> The Scriptures speak against in a number of places (WLC Q. 142 cites these particularly) the gathering of wealth by not giving equal value for the pay rendered.


 so how do you not condemn the pro ballers who make millions for playing a ball game or actors for making a movie or the drug reps for... well you get my point. I'm sorry but my husband works usually 10 hours a day as a plumber, he's the best in the southeast, then he does side jobs, HARD, nasty, sometimes dangerous jobs to make less than $40 grand a year. THAT is not equal pay. Yet we raise our hands and bow our heads and praise GOD for what He has chosen to give us... and what He has blessed others with when they win money for a quarter, or a horse, or a good day trading stock, or a good day flipping a house. Because really, does it not all come from God? the good, the bad and unimaginable.
I think it's all a matter of the heart.


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## ChristianTrader (Aug 25, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> ChristianTrader said:
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1)Purpose: Make Money
2)Vocational Habits by nature Unbiblical: Seems to be the question at hand (What makes a vocational habit by nature unbiblical)
3)Relationship between day trading and gambling: Large amounts of chance and Uncertainty (I could probably add things but I am not sure what is relevant in this case).

Also as an aside, I did not specify day trading vs. other forms of stock market involvement.

CT


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Aug 25, 2008)

http://www.puritanboard.com/f54/gambling-unbiblical-26401/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f54/powerball-340-million-play-not-play-9687/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f24/gambling-3408/

William Perkins, quoted by I.D.E. Thomas, _A Puritan Golden Treasury_: 



> Games may be divided into three sorts: games of wit or industry, games of hazard, and a mixture of both. Games of wit or industry are such as are ordered by the skill and industry of man. Of this sort are shooting in the longbow, shooting in the caliver, running, wrestling, fencing, music, and the games of chess and draughts...These, and all of this kind, wherein the industry of the mind and body hath the chiefest stroke, are very commendable, and not to be disliked. Games of hazard are those in which hazard only bears the sway and orders the game, and not wit: wherein also there is, as we say, chance, yea mere chance in regard of us. Now games that are of mere hazard, by the consent of godly divines are unlawful. The reasons are these: First, games of mere hazard are indeed lots, and the use of a lot is an act of religion, in which we refer unto the God determination of things of moment that can no other way be determined...Secondly, such games are not recreations, but rather matter of stirring up troublesome passions, as fear, sorrow...Thirdly, covetousness is commonly the ground of them all. Whereupon it is that men usually play for money. And for these causes such plays...are unlawful. The third kind of plays are mixed, which stand partly of hazard and partly of wit, and in which hazard begins the game and skill gets the victory, and that which is defective by reason of hazard is corrected by wit...Now the common opinion of learned divines is that, as they are not to be commended, so they are not simply to be condemned, and if they be used they must be used very sparingly.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Aug 25, 2008)

I would think it to be prudent to read the threads Andrew has posted as they answer most of the questions we have brought up in this thread.


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## Athaleyah (Aug 25, 2008)

Honor said:


> Angela, every time you play a game you are benefiting from someones loss... that's called winning.



It is not the same thing. I do not truly benefit from playing a board game. The person who loses the game has given nothing to me. They have everything they had before they started the game and probably in the mean time had some fun. There is no cost to the loser. Ideally we all give God thanks for the fun we and he is glorified.

Compare this to buying a lottery ticket. I may win a million dollars, and part of that money I won may have come from a woman who chose to buy a lottery ticket instead of milk for her child or a man who can't make his house payment. I have benefited from the misery and poverty of others. I may thank God for the money, but the source is not good. Even if most of the money comes from people who play the lottery responsibly, they have still really lost something so that I may gain. They have less than they had when they started and I have more.


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## ColdSilverMoon (Aug 25, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Jon Peters said:
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That's exactly the point. Your reasoning is this:

1. Accruing wealth without proportionate work is a violation of the 8th commandment
2. Gaming is accruing wealth without proportionate work
3. Therefore, gaming is a violation of the 8th commandment.

But to be consistent, you would also have to say:

1. Accruing wealth without proportionate work is a violation of the 8th commandment
2. Receiving a monetary gift is accruing wealth without proportionate work
3. Therefore, receiving a monetary gift is a violation of the 8th commandment

I agree that the Bible does not forbid receiving gifts. But the Bible also does not forbid gambling in moderation. So Jon has a valid point - if you believe gambling is wrong because it is a violation of the 8th commandment, then by the same logic you would have to believe receiving monetary gifts is wrong as well...


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Aug 25, 2008)

ColdSilverMoon said:


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Can you show us where the Bible does not forbid gambling in moderation?

You have failed to show how in your table how giving of gifts is equatable to games of chance that deny God's providence and his charity not to mention that the games themselves are often performed in dens of wickedness (especially in the "Gambling towns"). While this itself is not an argument but must be an obvious consideration. Also when looking at things like the lottery it is worth noting that the proceeds of said "game" very rarely are used in a manner that gives Glory to God.


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## ColdSilverMoon (Aug 26, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


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I can't prove an absence of something. To do so I would say my proof is the entire canon, since there is no prohibition of gambling in it. 

And if I won at gambling, I would say God's providence allowed me to win. To gamble is not to deny God's providence at all - His will be done, win or lose.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Aug 26, 2008)

Scripture does say Gambling is a sin. Look at Proverbs 21:17 and 28:19 specifically. 

Here is a snippet from a John MacArthur article on Gambling(Full article can be found here)


> Why gambling is wrong:
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> * Not justified by the casting of lots. In biblical times lots functioned much like dice. They were made of sheep's knuckle bones, and the roll of those bones indicated a certain meaning. When the people had to make an important decision and had difficulty determining God's will, He sovereignly intervened and caused the lots to fall in such a way as to tell His followers what to do. At no time did anyone ever put something of value at risk.
> * Denies the reality of God's sovereignty. Chance, the major promise of gambling's outworking, is the fabric of a human imagination that wants to deny the existence of a sovereign God. The Lord has established His throne in the heavens, and His sovereignty rules over all (Ps. 103:19).
> ...


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## Mushroom (Aug 26, 2008)

I'm sorry, but much of life it seems is a gamble from our perspective. Any business owner can tell you that. Even those who through diligence and hard work achieve valuable degrees in some profession such as the law or medicine are gambling that they will succeed in those endeavors, and I can assure you that their efforts are no greater exertions than those of a plumber or carpenter. Maybe wiser, but even that is a matter of God-given ability, and is affected by the circumstances of one's birth, which varies in quality and measure according to God's will.

I've seen folks who have hardly had to work at all find easy success, and those who have labored hard and long their entire lives to essentially gain nothing. The silliest thing is to see those who interpret their monetary success as some verification from God that they are somehow "better Christians". It's all a gift from the hand of God. We are called to glorify God in all we do, which would include our labors as well as our entertainments.

The carpenter who spends a dollar on a lottery ticket as a form of entertainment and wins a million dollars is no less a Christian than the lawyer who wins a class-action lawsuit and walks away with a million dollars, or the stock trader who gets in early on an IPO and profits by a million dollars the next day. The human heart is capable of making an idol of anything.... a lottery, a profession, a business, our own hard work and diligence - the possibilitues are endless. That would seem to me to be the line at which any pursuit becomes sin; when it becomes an idol rather than something whereby God is glorified.

Yes, gambling can be sinful, and not just at a casino. So can reading systematic theologies if you do that to the neglect of other duties and fail to pay the rent to buy them.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Aug 26, 2008)

Rev. Greco in this post answers these comparisons between stock trading and gambling quite well...


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## Dwimble (Aug 26, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Scripture does say Gambling is a sin. Look at Proverbs 21:17 and 28:19 specifically.


I don't gamble...I don't like gambling, and I am rarely, if ever, even _tempted_ by it. I think it destroys a LOT of lives, just like alchohol. And, consequently, I hold an almost identical position on both "vices." So I'm largely sympathetic to your position. But, the two scriptures you listed don't say anything about gambling. So, if those are your "specific" scriptures about gambling, then your scriptural argument is pretty thin.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Aug 26, 2008)

Dwimble said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
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Well that of course is not the full breadth of the argument. At the least Gambling violates the general equity of the 8th Commandment.


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## ChristianTrader (Aug 26, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Rev. Greco in this post answers these comparisons between stock trading and gambling quite well...



I read that post, and did not buy it then (I posted right after it) and still don't buy it now.

Concerning day trading, if day trading was made illegal, all the companies on every the stock market would still receive money to use to build their businesses.

Concerning wasteful activity argument, most activites have a "house" in order to facilitate. In the stock market, it would be the market makers. They take a portion of every transaction.

CT


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## ChristianTrader (Aug 26, 2008)

VirginiaHuguenot said:


> http://www.puritanboard.com/f54/gambling-unbiblical-26401/
> http://www.puritanboard.com/f54/powerball-340-million-play-not-play-9687/
> http://www.puritanboard.com/f24/gambling-3408/
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Andrew, are there examples of what Perkins or similar folks would consider to be apart of the third kind of plays?

CT


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## ColdSilverMoon (Aug 26, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Scripture does say Gambling is a sin. Look at Proverbs 21:17 and 28:19 specifically.
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> Here is a snippet from a John MacArthur article on Gambling(Full article can be found here)
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I would love to see your exegesis of those Proverbs verses as a direct and specific prohibition of gambling. Ok, so careless frivolity and an undue love of pleasure are generally wrong - I don't think anyone here would argue that. But how does that specifically forbid ALL gambling anymore than it forbids ALL consumption of alcohol?

I love MacArthur and agree with most of what he has to say, but like his view on Dispensationalism, this an area I think he's wrong. All of his points are good reasons for not gambling excessively, but they all make assumptions that aren't always valid. 

So I stand by the claim that there is no direct Scriptural prohibition of gambling. I disagree with your application of the 8th commandment (and MacArthur's), but at least that's an issue we can reasonably discuss...


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Aug 26, 2008)

ColdSilverMoon said:


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The Westminster Divines chose those two passages in Proverbs for support of their inclusion of Gambling as a violation of the 8th Commandment in WLC Q. 142. I was not using them as a per se exegetical backing, just pointing to the Standard's background.

As far as the 8th Commandment itself outlawing Gambling how about we move to the Third Commandment. Would you say that it would be unlawful or lawful to ask God's help (in other words pray) in winning the lotto or a cast of the die?


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## ColdSilverMoon (Aug 26, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


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But the WLC Q 142 specifically says _wasteful_ gaming. If all gaming were wasteful, it would be redundant. The Proverbs cited back up excess frivolity or a life lived in pursuit of pleasure. Infrequent gaming for entertainment does not fit the picture of "wasteful" or "excess frivolity" in my mind.

I wouldn't pray for a cast of the die any more than I would pray for a delicious glass of beer or a really enjoyable movie. Maybe others disagree, but I wouldn't come before the Almighty with such trivial matters...


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Aug 26, 2008)

ColdSilverMoon said:


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Firstly by "Wasteful Gaming" the WLC means the difference between playing Football, Baseball, etc... which is not wasteful and the "casting of lots" which is wasteful because it is not a prudent use of God's monetary gift.


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## Mushroom (Aug 26, 2008)

> Firstly by "Wasteful Gaming" the WLC means the difference between playing Football, Baseball, etc... which is not wasteful and the "casting of lots" which is wasteful because it is not a prudent use of God's monetary gift.


You might say that about football, but baseball? Thats a huge waste...


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Aug 26, 2008)

ChristianTrader said:


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I'll try to give examples of what Perkins has in mind as directly as possible from his own writings.

William Perkins, _The Nature and Practice of Repentance_ (on the Third Commandment) in _Works_, Vol. 1, p. 460:



> He breakes this commandment...That vfeth lots in fporting. _Prov_. 16. 33 and 18. 13.



William Perkins, _A Treatise of the Vocations_ in _Works_, Vol. 1, p. 750: 



> Secondly, by this which hath bin faid, we learn, that many perfwading themfelues of their callings, haue for all this, no calling at al. As for example, fuch as liue by usury, by carding and dicing, by maintaining houfes of gaming, by plaies and fuch like: For God is the author of euery lawfull calling: but thefe and fuch miferable courfes of liuing, are either againft the word of God, or elfe are not grounded thereupon. And therefore are no callings or vocations, but anocations from God and his waies.



William Perkins, _Cases of Conscience_ in _Works_, Vol. 2, pp. 141-142:



> Games of hazard are thofe in which hazard onely beares the fway, and orders the game, and not wit; wherein alfo there is (as we fay) chance, yea, meere chance in regard of us. Of this kinde is Dicing, and fundry games at the Tables and Cards. Now games that are of meere hazard, by the conset of godly Divines are unlawfull. The reasons are thefe.
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> First, games of meere hazard are indeed lots; and the ufe of a lot is an act of religion, in which we referre unto God the determination of things of moment, that can no other way bee determined. For in the ufe of a lot there bef foure things. The firft is, a causal act done by us, as the cafting of the Die. The fecond is, the applying of this act to the determination of fome particular controverfie, the ending whereof maintaines peace, order and love among men. The third is confeffion, that God is a foveraigne Judge, to end and determine things that can no other way bee determined. The fourth is fupplication, that God would by the difopofition of the lot when it is caft, determine the event. And thefe actions are infolded in the ufe of a lot, and they are expreffed, _Act_. 1. _v_. 24, 25, 26. Now then, feeing the ufe of a lot is a folemne act of religion, it may not bee applied to fporting, as I have fhewed in the firft conclufion. Secondly, fuch games are not recreations, but rather matter of ftirring up troublefome paffions, as feare, forrow, &c. and fo they diftemper the body and minde. Thirdly, covetoufneffe is commonly the ground of them all. Whereupon it is, that men ufually play for money. And for thefe caufes, fuch playes by the consent of learned Divines, are unlawfull.
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Increase Mather cites Perkins' opinions against games of hazard, ie., cards and dice games here:

A Testimony Against several Prophane and Superstitious Customs, Now Practised by some in New-England.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Aug 26, 2008)

Brad said:


> > Firstly by "Wasteful Gaming" the WLC means the difference between playing Football, Baseball, etc... which is not wasteful and the "casting of lots" which is wasteful because it is not a prudent use of God's monetary gift.
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> You might say that about football, but baseball? Thats a huge waste...





But seriously, there is a reason they call Baseball the National _Pastime_ instead of the National _Sport_.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Aug 26, 2008)

William Perkins, _Cases of Conscience_ in _Works_, Vol. 2, p. 142:



> _How are we to ufe Recreation?_
> ...
> III. Rule. The end of our recreation muft bee, to refrefh our bodies and mindes. It is then an abufe of Recreation, when it is ufed to win other mens money. The gaine that comes that way is worfe than ufury, yea it is flat theft. For by the law, we may recover things ftolne, but there is no law to recover things won. And yet if play bee for a fmall matter, the loffe whereof is no hurt to him that lofeth it, and if it be applyed to a common good, it is lawfull; otherwife not.


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## Dwimble (Aug 26, 2008)

VirginiaHuguenot said:


> William Perkins, _Cases of Conscience_ in _Works_, Vol. 2, p. 142:
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That argument seems to say, in essence: "_Gambling for recreation is theft...unless the loser only loses a little bit of money and the winner uses it for something good. Then, it is not theft._"

Maybe it is just me, but that argument seems kind of ridiculous. It is only stealing if the loser can't handle losing that much money? But if he can handle losing that much, and if the winner does something good with it, then it is lawful? 

If it is "theft" then it is still theft whether the loser loses $10,000 or $.10...and what the winner does with it doesn't make it any more or less "theft."

As I said in a previous post, I don't gamble. But I'm still not at all convinced by the "gambling=theft" argument, and this specific version of that argument just seems so contradictory it is silly.


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## twogunfighter (Aug 27, 2008)

Glad you all posted Perkins on this matter. Looks like my weekly poker game is still lawful. BTW I am currently up $50 so I am considerably better off than if I had invested that $120 in the stock market over the last month and a half. I spent that $50 on wings and beer though. Frivolous! Frivolous!


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Aug 28, 2008)

Well if you had invested wisely you still could have made money in the stock market. Just because the DOW goes down does not mean people are not still raking it in.


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## Dwimble (Aug 28, 2008)

I don't want to speak for Chuck, but I'm fairly confident that he was being a bit facetious rather than actually making any serious commentary about the Stock Market.


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## SRoper (Aug 28, 2008)

VirginiaHuguenot said:


> http://www.puritanboard.com/f54/gambling-unbiblical-26401/
> http://www.puritanboard.com/f54/powerball-340-million-play-not-play-9687/
> http://www.puritanboard.com/f24/gambling-3408/
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Is the children's game Chutes and Ladders then to be condemned?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Aug 28, 2008)

SRoper said:


> VirginiaHuguenot said:
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If you are wagering money on it, then yes.


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## SRoper (Aug 28, 2008)

But his first point is that "games of mere hazard are indeed lots, and the use of a lot is an act of religion..." That argument has nothing to do with whether money is being wagered. The same could be said of the second point, "such games are not recreations, but rather matter of stirring up troublesome passions, as fear, sorrow." Kids especially can get worked up about such games even if they aren't gambling money.


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## lukeh021471 (Aug 28, 2008)

*computer gameing*

How about governor of poker on bigfish games


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## Dwimble (Aug 28, 2008)

SRoper said:


> But his first point is that "games of mere hazard are indeed lots, and the use of a lot is an act of religion..." That argument has nothing to do with whether money is being wagered. The same could be said of the second point, "such games are not recreations, but rather matter of stirring up troublesome passions, as fear, sorrow." Kids especially can get worked up about such games even if they aren't gambling money.



Right, that Perkins quote isn't specifically about wagering at all, but about three different types of "games." Only one time does he mention playing for money, "_Thirdly, covetousness is commonly the ground of them all. Whereupon it is that men usually play for money._" He is saying that games of mere "hazard" are wrong, and "play for money" is just one of the reasons why. By his reasoning I think he would indeed say that any game that doesn't require "industry" or "wit" is unlawful.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Aug 28, 2008)

SRoper said:


> But his first point is that "games of mere hazard are indeed lots, and the use of a lot is an act of religion..." That argument has nothing to do with whether money is being wagered. The same could be said of the second point, "such games are not recreations, but rather matter of stirring up troublesome passions, as fear, sorrow." Kids especially can get worked up about such games even if they aren't gambling money.



If it causes you or your children inflamed passions and anger towards your/their neighbor then you should desist from it, but that goes for everything you do. 

But what is your point?


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## twogunfighter (Aug 29, 2008)

> I don't want to speak for Chuck, but I'm fairly confident that he was being a bit facetious rather than actually making any serious commentary about the Stock Market.



Yes I was being a bit facetious, but just a bit. There is a reason that stock market transactions are often called plays. They are bets that certain companies will perform better than others. There is no difference in playing the market In my humble opinion than playing poker; poker players are just more honest with themselves about the fact that it is gambling. Both games take skill and nerves. Since we know it is gambling we tend to risk only budget dust. Most would not think it a bad thing to take $20K and put it in the market but no right thinking Christian would wager that in a poker game. 

I am not debating this or willing to make a long exegetical case for my position. I will continue to lurk to see if someone can change my mind.


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## SRoper (Aug 29, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> SRoper said:
> 
> 
> > But his first point is that "games of mere hazard are indeed lots, and the use of a lot is an act of religion..." That argument has nothing to do with whether money is being wagered. The same could be said of the second point, "such games are not recreations, but rather matter of stirring up troublesome passions, as fear, sorrow." Kids especially can get worked up about such games even if they aren't gambling money.
> ...



My point is that Perkins would not allow playing a game like Chutes and Ladders for at least one if not two reasons. That seems rather extreme.


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## tdowns (Aug 29, 2008)

*Buck a hole....*

For me, the "buck a hole" my friend and I play, when we play disc golf, just adds to the "value" of the round, we are getting a work out, we are using our minds, we are spending time with our kids, and 99% of the time, we're about a buck over or under the other at the end, and it all carries over, so money has never changed hands. But, like paying money to enter a tournament, where you might win money, it brings the game up a notch, the focus.

So, in this sense, I think, betting on golf, sports, in which we play, is in no way theft. Like one team buying the other dinner in a pick up game of hoops or something.

I def. believe gambling is becoming a huge problem in our culture today, and it's def. not an edifying trend, but, that doesn't mean it's all a sin.


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## beenaround (Sep 1, 2008)

Whilst I should probably shut up and sit down, I have a coin to toss in.

Matthew 13:44 "The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field." [ESV]

If THAT'S not a gamble, what is? As I've acquired more responsibility (wife, kids) I've struggle with risk avoidance. I've gone from rock climbing and "high risk" activities when single, to playing it completely safe in every aspect of life; and that's really a lack of faith. I've passed up treasures in the field I should have bought. This verse and others like it are helping. 

But there are levels of chance, of risk, and security. I feel far more comfortable dropping a quarter in a slot machine while walking through a hotel in Vegas than I do plunking down $3000 for a used (Japanese)car, even if I get it checked out by a mechanic. Why? Because the loss is minor if I fail. (Or so I think.) Other than the mechanic checking for gross problems there's no guarantee that the car's not going to fail tomorrow. So I have to do my diligence and trust the Lord for the future. I know a Christian businessman, a leading reformed elder, who regularly takes high dollar risks in the course of his business; far greater than I'm comfortable with. But he's not just speculating, it's the nature of big business itself! 

But it comes down to stewardship, conscience, and faith. 
I would assert that putting $5 on the wheel or a poker hand is bad stewardship, as is the $5 small coke I *didn't* buy at the Cubs-Pirates slaughter. (I was given free tix ;-)
Why? Because I know I *can* invest $5 in the kingdom and get a good return on my investment, here and abroad, now and in eternity. 
So this is where stewardship, conscience and faith come in. That $5 may not be much for you relatively, but to another it's a fortune (consider the widow's two mites.) What can God do with my $5 given in joy and faith?
Would it be better to give the Lord an offering of that money somehow, than to indulge in that frozen-double-mochaccino or let it ride on 23-red? ...A "sacrifice" of my pleasure for the Lord, so-to-speak?

Hmmm...considering the widows mites, and the fact that "The earth is the Lord's and *all* that fills it, the world and those who dwell therein," (Psalm 24:1 ESV) maybe I need to rethink that aforementioned quarter in the slots as well. How big is my faith, and at what level does God "overlook the little details" of what I do?

Think I'll meditate on that today.


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## Thomas2007 (Sep 2, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> SRoper said:
> 
> 
> > VirginiaHuguenot said:
> ...




Hey Ben,

This has been an interesting and informative thread, I appreciate your stand, but I have some comments and questions. You've had a few responses that have posed several situational ethical questions and how your stand may answer those. Others have deferred to various investment strategies such as stock market investing, and then others have provided some historical background on the difference between sports and games of hazard, as they are called.

I would tend, because of my general presuppositions, to side with you on strong stands such as you've taken. On the other hand, I haven't settled this in my mind and have some questions for you. The Scripture says that a man seems right until he is cross - examined, so if you don't mind I have some ethical questions of my own I would like you to consider. In particular, I am interested in how you would deal with them holding to this dogmatic position.

In our country because of the strong Christian ethic that has historically rooted the morality of our laws gambling has been viewed as a vice and in most instances criminal activity. It's only of late that it has really grown and become a common place thing with State's having Lotto's and Casino's of various sorts popping up all over the country - and it's legalization.

You seem to have taken your stand based upon, presuppositionally, the extent of wagering "money." Indeed, criminal laws have historically also based their sanctions upon the same idea. For example, most States have historically criminalized gambling, but that has been sanctioned based upon playing for "money."

Here is my question and I'll explain the dilemma I see as well.

Here are some court rulings, most less than a seventy five years old, regarding people that have been indicted for gambling in violation of various criminal laws prohibiting playing games for "money."


" "Money" as used in an indictment charging the betting of money, does not include United States treasury notes, such notes not being money in the legal acceptation." Williams v State, 20 Miss 12 Smedes & M 58, 63​
"The term "money" does not include bank notes. Hence an indictment under a statute making it an offense to play at games, etc., for money - the indictment charging that the defendant played at a game of faro for money - cannot be sustained by proof that bank notes were bet, nor would such an indictment be sustained by proof that property was bet." Hale v. State, 8 Tex. 171, 172​
"The term "money," though it may have a popular import which in ordinary parlance means, or at least includes, bank notes, in its true technical import means lawful money of the United States, or, in other words, gold or silver coins, and, when used in judicial proceedings, is always to be taken in its technical sense; and thus an indictment for keeping a gaming table, at which a game of chance was charged to have been played for money, is not supported by proof that bank notes were played for." Pryor v Commonwealth, 32 Ky, 2 Dana 298​

In our law in the United States "money" is defined Biblically, the dollar itself being a common law term of weight of money and used in the Constitution of the United States, although, the last seventy five years it has been redefined primarily through judicial means, then Congress has built upon that redefinition and passes off its bankruptcy receipts as "money". This, however, doesn't change the law - it only means we've all went along with the lawlessness and accepted it as normative. We all live in and work in the trust of the United States economy and discharge our debts in its bankruptcy - yet we act as if we are honest men.

With the right hand we reach out to an absolute of God's Word on the morality of gambling as being a violation of one or more of the Ten Commandments, but with the left we accept an arbitrary fuzzy principle upon which to apply it. An arbitrary fuzzy principle that is explicitly in violation of one or more of the Ten Commandments. How do you resolve that dilemma?

For example, the same situation exists in terms of theft. Here are some court cases from the early 1900's reflecting that:

" "Money," as used in Crimes Act § 18, providing that any person stealing any money, the property of another, shall be guilty of larceny, cannot be construed to include bank bills, for strictly bank bills are not money, though for many purposes they are treated as such." Johnson v State, 11 Ohio St 324, 325​

"The term "money," in the statute defining robbery as taking from the person of another any money or personal property of any value whatsoever, with forc​


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Sep 2, 2008)

Thomas,

The WLC primarily makes its argument against gambling as a waste of what God has provided for you. In other words gambling is not a wise use of one's resources.


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