# Racism in the Church?



## Ryan&Amber2013 (Mar 14, 2016)

Maybe you guys can help me understand this: My friends have some friends who are in what seems to be a protest against the church, and it's all over racism. I don't know exactly why, but a friend was saying she thinks it's because church leaders aren't standing up for the rights of minorities, and the Bible has been translated by white men with special interests, etc. I think they are viewing the church as being racist in a sense. It's to the point that one guy they know has actually walked away from the faith. I heard yesterday that this is a nation wide problem right now. Have you guys experienced this? What's going on? Thanks!


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## Edward (Mar 14, 2016)

There are plenty of racists in the church. The Rev. Jeremiah Wright, the Rev. Jessie Jackson, the Rev. Al Sharpton, for example. So ask if that is what they are talking about.


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## chuckd (Mar 14, 2016)

Edward said:


> There are plenty of racists in the church. The Rev. Jeremiah Wright, the Rev. Jessie Jackson, the Rev. Al Sharpton, for example. So ask if that is what they are talking about.



Not to mention folks who doubt the Bible because of the translator's skin color.


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## 2ndViolinist (Mar 14, 2016)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> Have you guys experienced this?



As a "minority" I am not aware of any rights I'm being denied--except my right to bear arms... I can vote, speak my mind freely, marry who I want, and go to church in peace. To my knowledge, all other "minorities" in the US have these same rights. Some people are creating problems that were not there to begin with. By no means am I saying that no one suffers from racism--I just don't believe it is as widespread a problem as the media tries to convince us it is.

The population of my church is predominantly white. My favorite pastors, theologians, and Christian authors are white men--with the exception of Elisabeth Elliot and Amy Carmichael. These things do not bother me because there is not a hint of racism in those godly people's sermons, books, and conduct. If God in His Providence sent His Jewish Son to save His people from their sins and white men to start the Reformation, then I can only conclude that that was the best possible way for God to carry out His plans. God's thoughts and ways are higher than ours. That has nothing to do with certain races being superior to others.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave[a] nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
- Galatians 3:28



Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> What's going on?



Satan has constantly been working to divide the church along many lines. Race is just one of them.


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Mar 14, 2016)

2ndViolinist said:


> Ryan&Amber2013 said:
> 
> 
> > Have you guys experienced this?
> ...



That was beautifully said, brother. So have you noticed an increase of racial problems in the church in the same way we are seeing them outside the church?


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## Pergamum (Mar 14, 2016)

Modern logic = King James Bible translated by white guys...must be racist.

Ugh.


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## Beezer (Mar 14, 2016)

Ryan,

Couple questions to help me understand your original post...

1. What church denomination(s) are your friends (and their friends) affiliated with?

2. What "rights" are your friends referring to that church leaders aren't standing up for?

3. Who are these "white men" that your friends speak of and what "special interests" did/do they have? Are you talking about modern translators of today or the Wycliffe's and Tyndale's of old? 


As written it's kind of hard to provide a substantive response to your inquiry.


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## TylerRay (Mar 14, 2016)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> So have you noticed an increase of racial problems in the church in the same way we are seeing them outside the church?



What increase of racial problems outside the church are you referring to?


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## TylerRay (Mar 14, 2016)

It seems to me that your friends' friends are making up reasons not to like the Church. That's no new problem. In some ways it may be a variant of the "The Church is full of hypocrites" (non)argument.


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## Andres (Mar 14, 2016)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> 2ndViolinist said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan&Amber2013 said:
> ...



I think you mean SISTER.


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## arapahoepark (Mar 14, 2016)

I wonder if its all special pleading like this article that your friends are referring to. Posted on the Aquila Repprt no less.
http://theaquilareport.com/the-cruelty-of-the-color-blind-theory-of-race-in-evangelical-churches/


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Mar 14, 2016)

Beezer said:


> Ryan,
> 
> Couple questions to help me understand your original post...
> 
> ...



That's the thing, I don't really know what's going on, I've just heard of about 6 or 7 of my friends' friends who are on this rant about racism. I don't think my friends have any clear answers as to why, they just know it's there. They said it's a problem right now in the church. I believe they are a part of the CRC, but I could be wrong. We are in the PCA. 

I think the rights have something to do with discrimination and unfair treatment, but I don't know. 

I'm not sure about the special interests, but supposedly one guy said the Scriptures are interpreted by white people to fit our agenda. 

I'm guessing it's probably not a big issue in the church right now if you guys haven't heard anything. I was just wondering if this is going on in your circles as well.


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Mar 14, 2016)

TylerRay said:


> Ryan&Amber2013 said:
> 
> 
> > So have you noticed an increase of racial problems in the church in the same way we are seeing them outside the church?
> ...



I think the supposed police brutality against blacks is probably the main issue that has been going on. I think the blacks in this church nearby me think in general, that black people are just treated worse and made to be targets because of their skin color.

But I'm really not sure; I don't know these guys, I've just heard there's drama going on without knowing all the details.


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Mar 14, 2016)

Andres said:


> Ryan&Amber2013 said:
> 
> 
> > 2ndViolinist said:
> ...



Good catch. I apologize.


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Mar 14, 2016)

TylerRay said:


> It seems to me that your friends' friends are making up reasons not to like the Church. That's no new problem. In some ways it may be a variant of the "The Church is full of hypocrites" (non)argument.



I think you're right. That is the only way I can rationalize it as well. Unless there is something I am missing that is happening in the church, which it doesn't seem like any of us would are aware of it.


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## Andres (Mar 15, 2016)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> That's the thing, I don't really know what's going on, I've just heard of about 6 or 7 of my friends' friends who are on this rant about racism.



I would suggest you press your friend's for further information. Otherwise, to have some random criticism thrown out by a friend of a friend without any real basis of truth, sounds very much like a violation of the ninth commandment.


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## Reformed Fox (Mar 15, 2016)

I am curious what you mean by "standing up for the rights on minorities". This sounds like a call for political action which most churches are jusitifiably reluctant to engage in. This is just speculation on my part of course, but it might be something to ask your friend about. 

It is always problematic for church leadership to engage on issues not directly related to the Christian mission. At the same time we ought not to "ignore" the larger world.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Mar 15, 2016)

There is major ethnic polarization going on in our nation (America) at present. I say "ethnic" instead of "racial" because we humans are all of one race—the human race—for God "hath made of one blood all nations of men" (Acts 17:26). Ethnic bigotry and hatred is increasing (and not only in America) because, as written, "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time" (Rev 12:12). As the Day draws nearer these things will increase, and exponentially at that. There are men and women, and groups (outside the true church) who see no unifying bond between ethnicities and opt instead for power-grabbing politics, demanding rights and preferential treatment because of perceived _*or real*_ grievances, and condemning those who are merely of differing ethnicity. In Matt 24:7 where it is written, "nation shall rise against nation", the Greek for nation is _ethnos_, meaning people, tribe, or nation / nationality, this refers to what we are seeing. And it will, as I said, increase. 

But the way of Christ our King and His kingdom—which kingdom we are—is acknowledgment of wrongs, repentance, asking and giving forgiveness, seeking to comfort and assure our marginalized and disadvantaged brethren (sisters included) that among the King's people we will tolerate no wrongs or injustices or bigotry continuing among us, as this is the King's law of love and life. I do think we need to be proactive (even preemptive) in addressing this, seeing it is such a huge issue in the general culture. Preaching two Sundays ago at the church we planted in Cyprus, where there were numerous nationalities in the congregation (African, Filipino, Russian, Iranian, Indian, Scottish, English, American—my wife and I, who are Jew and Greek), I dwelt on this briefly, how that despite our skin colors and nations _*we*_ were one people united in Christ, adopted into the Lord's royal line of Judah and were princes and princesses in God's royal family, and esteemed as such by Him regardless of how earthly men might disdain and look down upon us.

We need to openly declare these distinctives of the international royal community of Jesus Christ, how that the Law of love is laid upon us—and within our hearts by His Spirit—so minority ethnics in our midst are aware that we perceive them as fellow royalty and beloved family. All the world is being filled with the spirit of Hell, which is division, power-mongering, hatred, envy, malice, lust, and so forth, but we are of the Spirit whose fruit is joy, peace, love, and so on. This ethnic hatred will at some point be focused as a burning laser upon us, the _ethnos_ of Christ, for our loyalty to our God and Saviour and His Law. By those who are perishing in sin and darkness we will be perceived as _*embodying the Law of God*_, and will be despised for this by those who love lawlessness. We must maintain the Lord Jesus' distinctive to love even our enemies, even as we proclaim His mercy and the coming judgment for those who spurn it.

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## 2ndViolinist (Mar 15, 2016)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> So have you noticed an increase of racial problems in the church in the same way we are seeing them outside the church?



I can only speak to my experiences in the few congregations that I have been a member of, all of which were so blessed. No racism to speak of... Fellow church members and I ministered to each other indiscriminately.

But, I did run into problems when I was part of a "Christian" fellowship in college (possibly "in the church"?). Doctrinally the group was weak and strongly divided, but I did not belong to a church at the time, so I stayed. In my third year of being a member--I can't believe I stayed that long--I and other Asian Americans were invited to an Asian "Identity" Conference based on the unfounded belief that we--and other ethnic groups for that matter--view the Gospel differently somehow. This bothered me very much. God and His Gospel are the same, no matter the observer. The conference wasn't even going to be held in the respective languages of those different ethnic groups who were going to attend. Indian Americans were not invited.

I declined the invitation. Leadership reprimanded those who did not go, so I quietly left the group. I became Reformed shortly afterward and joined the OPC. Really, I cannot emphasize enough that people are only creating problems. Stepping off of my soap box now...

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## Edward (Mar 15, 2016)

Well, the takeaway from the Jarvis Williams polemic linked in post 11 is that if we treat all Christian brothers equally in a colorblind fashion, we are accused of being racist. 

And since if we treat them differently, we are being racist. It's a no-win game, and I've quit playing.

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## Pilgrim (Mar 15, 2016)

What is most germane to this board is the resolutions that I understand will be presented at the PCA GA this summer, as well as the what Ligon Duncan and Sean Michael Lucas brought forward last year. This has to do with apologizing for the racist past of the PCUS, many of whose congregations that remained conservative are now in the PCA. I think those things have some validity, especially when it comes to certain churches that did things like have axe handles at the ready in case any blacks tried to enter the church in the 60s. Some people who did that are still living, and some of the congregation's actions and policies are still within the living memory of others. At least a few continue to defend segregation to this day. 

However, given the current zeitgeist, it remains to be seen whether or not "prophetic" SJWs will push things to the point that the long expected split in the PCA will come to fruition and such a division will ensue that would be irreparable for the time being. If things like the "prophetic" BLM defending woman preaching at Urbana last year cannot be contained, one wonders how it can be avoided. (My understanding is that she is on staff at a PCA church in the St. Louis area.) And then you've got at least one PCA TE saying that "we're not ready for reparations." The very wording suggests that at some point we will be. If that's not what he means, then I respectfully submit that he needs to express himself more clearly. 

After he was deposed at the beginning of the Mexican Revolution, the Mexican dictator Porfirio Diaz famously said “Madero has unleashed a tiger, now let's see if he can control it." As we know, he could not, and one of the biggest upheavals of the 20th Century ensued.


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## Edward (Mar 15, 2016)

Pilgrim said:


> (My understanding is that she is on staff at a PCA church in the St. Louis area.)



Her dad is the preacher at the church where she ministers.


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## ZackF (Mar 15, 2016)

Edward said:


> Well, the takeaway from the Jarvis Williams polemic linked in post 11 is that if we treat all Christian brothers equally in a colorblind fashion, we are accused of being racist.
> 
> And since if we treat them differently, we are being racist. It's a no-win game, and I've quit playing.



Like you I found Williams' article bewildering. I can't keep up. "Critical Race Theory" sounds like a Marxist category of thought designed for the purpose of creating distinctions for the purpose of agitation and propaganda. Even if it is not, most of my life I've strove for King's "content of character" vs. "color of skin" but that seems to be racist now because we're ignoring differences. Mention "differences" incorrectly and your racist. I just refrain from talking about the issue much at all in public even for clarification of someone else's view. Again, I can't keep up.


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## arapahoepark (Mar 15, 2016)

ZackF said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> > Well, the takeaway from the Jarvis Williams polemic linked in post 11 is that if we treat all Christian brothers equally in a colorblind fashion, we are accused of being racist.
> ...



Yes, I too found it utterly bizarre. I'd be considered a minority and I do not get it.


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## solas4me (Mar 16, 2016)

Kat,
Just out of curiosity, how is your 2nd amendment right being denied?
PM if you desire. I don't want to hijack the thread.

Thanks,
Justin


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Mar 16, 2016)

Thank you all for your responses. So it does seem like this is definitely a topic of discussion right now in the church. All of you have good insight. It's just crazy how this guy my friends know is supposedly not even a Christian anymore over this issue. It just doesn't make sense to me. If I hear anything more on the specifics of why they feel the way they do over this issue, I will post it and get your opinion. Thanks!


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## Berean (Mar 17, 2016)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> It's just crazy how this guy my friends know is supposedly not even a Christian anymore over this issue.



"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." -- 1 John 2:19


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## Andrew P.C. (Mar 19, 2016)

McLeod on Slavery Condemned: http://www.pcahistory.org/findingaids/rpcgs/McLeod-Slavery.pdf


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## Semper Fidelis (Mar 19, 2016)

Beloved,

First, let me say that I don't buy into a lot of the sociological concepts surrounding racism and claims of systemic injustice and the manner in which "white privilege" is often defined.

That said, I think we need to wrestle more deeply with racial divisions that are not all caused by racial agitators. There really was a time when there was overt systematic repression and that period was within this generation of America. The reverberations are not quickly healed by simply saying that we've just moved past that point.

I have to admit that I'm a bit of an outsider when it comes to understanding regional culture. I was born into a military family and never lived in one place for more than 6 years in my youth and then went off to college away from home in New York and was in the Marine Corps for another 21 years. I was in a bit of a bubble being in the military Sure, I saw racist attitudes in some relatives and witnessed some things in my years in Texas that I didn't quite understand but I never really was culturally part of any region to speak of.

My reflexive attitude about racism has been that we've sort of moved beyond that but I don't think that it's healthy to ignore what the consequences of the past have left in terms of scars. As much as I'd like to think that I really know some of my black friends there are some things that I'm learning to detect and be sensitive to much the same way I'm sensitive to some of the cultural distinctiveness of my friends from the Middle East or the Far East.

I was smoking a cigar with a friend the other day who is a retired Air Force Staff NCO. He's a fine gentleman and we have a small group of us who enjoy fine cigars and conversation. The other day the topic of race came up and I asked him if he gets stopped regularly for no reason. He looked at me incredulously. He wasn't angry but it was sort of a look like - are you kidding. Later that night we were in a cigar lounge (OK, we like cigars) and he started to relate his childhood in North Carolina and how he is simply very wise even now about places he will go at night. There was a sign in a yard in his area that read: "Any colored people caught on this property after dark will be hung."

Now my friend will be the first to admit that the Air Force changed him. There's a certain enculturation in the Armed Forces that allows for camaraderie. In many ways, I wish that the Church was like that. We could all be enculturated in the Kingdom and then we would be able to talk freely in the same manner that many of us in the military can.

But you really need to study American Church History to see why this is not the case. It's not the fault of black people that the patterns of racial segregation emerged in America. It simply isn't. It's a really sad, sad history of how hard it was for the outcasts to be welcomed by the Church as full citizens in the visible Kingdom of God even when their educated clergy were urging for just that point. This experience left deep wounds and, unfortunately, I think it's why some of them turned to some extra-Biblical forms of justice that have shaped the trajectory of the continued division.

There are no easy answers here.

I'm reading a good book right now called Open Friendship in a Closed Society (http://amzn.to/1TX4bKM). I'm not advocating everything in the book but the story of how First Presbyterian Church in Jackson, MS (PCA) started to just _talk_ and _pray_ with ministers in the area is a beautiful story in light of the history of that region. When the shooting in Charleston, SC occurred, Rick Philips recounted how he went to pray and meet with black Churches in that area.

I guess what I'm saying is I've come to the point where I've stopped waiting for others to figure out where the good theology is and come to our Church and to go to where they are. There are some deep-seated fears and resentments that have been built up over the years. Yes, they have been exploited and exacerbated by people who do not have the true Gospel but, whatever the reason others might have to think ill of "white Churches", I've come to the conviction that I need to talk and pray with others in black Churches. No easy answers. I just want to do what I can to overcome some of these long-entrenched divisions.

To return to the OP, however, I think the idea that the Bible itself is racist because it was translated by white people is pure fiction and owes more to deconstructionist ideas about everyone having their own truth.

Reactions: Amen 1


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## Rich Koster (Mar 19, 2016)

Dismantle racism. Take a genealogical journey back to the Ark and Noah's family. We're all related.


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## ZackF (Mar 21, 2016)

Semper Fidelis said:


> Beloved,
> 
> First, let me say that I don't buy into a lot of the sociological concepts surrounding racism and claims of systemic injustice and the manner in which "white privilege" is often defined.
> 
> ...




Very thoughtful and moving post. Thank you. I think I give up to easily sometimes. As my post above indicates, my struggle is figuring out how to NOT to be a racist correctly. Agitation in it's grassroots and academic form need not capture the heart of a believer and his love for a neighbor. It's silly to assume that human remedies for evil won't themselves be flawed, marked by sin, and self-righteousness. I remain in this and every other "issue", a work in progress.


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## Philip (Mar 21, 2016)

I do think that we should all grieve over the division of the church along racial lines as much as along denominational ones. While we should recognize that institutional unity may not be possible right now (for any number of reasons, both good and not so good) we should try to be at peace as much as possible.

There was something inspiring last year in the aftermath of the Charleston shooting when the churches of Charleston all got together to pray for their city and to stand together. And these weren't just the mainline churches. Many of the churches at the forefront were ones that left the mainline over Biblical authority. It was a statement that insomuch as you have done it to my brothers and sisters, whether black or white, you have done it to the whole of the body.


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## rreyes329 (Mar 31, 2016)

Edward said:


> Well, the takeaway from the Jarvis Williams polemic linked in post 11 is that if we treat all Christian brothers equally in a colorblind fashion, we are accused of being racist.
> 
> And since if we treat them differently, we are being racist. It's a no-win game, and I've quit playing.




Hi, Edward,

It is great to see that you are interacting with such a great brother as Dr. Williams. I know Dr. Williams personally, and have read most of his works, including the article that was posted. In fact, I have read it several times, and I wanted to make sure that it was fresh in my mind, so I read it again. From the article and in speaking with him personally, I can tell you that he is not accusing anyone of racism when it comes to holding a "color blind" perspective. Rather, what Jarvis is saying is, that when a Christian, whether black, white, hispanic, asian, etc, attempts to look at another Christian as colorblind, said Christian is actually denying that person's ethnicity and cultural background. Consider this, God has created all the nations, ethnic groups of this world, and people's different colors. Thus, why would we attempt to ignore what God has really created? Moreover, would it not be more God honoring to accept a brother's or sister's ethnicity and see it as good, especially in light of the biases of our own cultures? If I have not done justice to Jarvis' point, send him an email, I know that he would welcome any question regarding his work. The man is really gracious and passionate about the Gospel and how it relates to reconciling man with God, and man with man. I hope this helps.

In Christ,
Roberto Reyes, Jr
Chaplain
layman, Victory Baptist Memorial Church
MDiv; ThM

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## Mr. Bultitude (Apr 1, 2016)

From the website of a PCA church I recently attended:



> What is racial reconciliation?
> 
> 
> It is the application of the Gospel to our present racial and ethnic situation and circumstance.
> ...


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## Pergamum (Apr 1, 2016)

Mr. Bultitude said:


> From the website of a PCA church I recently attended:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How is this possible? And did they push this as a desired outcome? 



> It is the taking of responsibility for the sins of our forefathers


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## Edward (Apr 1, 2016)

rreyes329 said:


> I can tell you that he is not accusing anyone of racism when it comes to holding a "color blind" perspective.



From the linked article:



> "And the color-blind theory of race perpetuates the very racism that it seeks to avoid "



OK, he doesn't say they are racist. He's just saying they are perpetuating racism.

Then you (and perhaps he) are able to draw finer lines than I am.


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## Philip (Apr 1, 2016)

Edward said:


> OK, he doesn't say they are racist. He's just saying they are perpetuating racism.



As someone who has struggled to try and translate, let me explain:

When a white person says "I don't see colour" or something of the sort, they usually mean that they are trying to treat people fairly, as individuals rather than representatives, etc.

What black people hear, though, is a denial of their identity as black people. What they hear is that they are being judged by a white standard, which means that they are fine so long as they don't "act black." When you say "my church is colourblind" the message that people hear is "leave your blackness at the door. You are welcome as long as you don't bring that with you."

Reactions: Amen 1


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## Edward (Apr 1, 2016)

Philip said:


> What black people hear, though, is a denial of their identity as black people. What they hear is that they are being judged by a white standard, which means that they are fine so long as they don't "act black." When you say "my church is colourblind" the message that people hear is "leave your blackness at the door. You are welcome as long as you don't bring that with you."



Folks that want to retain their cultural distinctives but want to deny me the right to keep my cultural distinctives are the real bigots. And like I said, I'm not willing to play their games by their rules any more. "Heads, you win, Tails, I lose" is something I moved past in elementary school. And I'm not going to let Williams or anyone else guilt me back into that game.


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## rreyes329 (Apr 1, 2016)

Edward said:


> rreyes329 said:
> 
> 
> > I can tell you that he is not accusing anyone of racism when it comes to holding a "color blind" perspective.
> ...



Hi, Edward,

Thank you for your response. I think that perpetuating racism and being a racist are two different things. Especially if you're not away that you're perpetuating it. It happens. I know that I have perpetuated ideas, right ones and wrong ones, without knowing it. But, I'm glad that the Lord has blessed me with awareness and perspective in relation to said ideas. Like I said, Jarvis is a great brother. You and others should give him the benefit of the doubt before you make conclusions about him, especially since others have made connections between his ideas and Marxism. The least you could do is contact the man and get clarification, if your intent is really to understand the man. He is your brother in Christ, and he deserves that much.


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## Edward (Apr 1, 2016)

rreyes329 said:


> Especially if you're not away that you're perpetuating it.



Political correctness isn't one of my idols. As for you and Mr. Williams, perhaps you each might invest in a mirror. 

I'll recognize anyone's rights to be offended. But as I've repeatedly noted, I'm not going to play a rigged game I can't win.


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## rreyes329 (Apr 1, 2016)

Hi, Edward,

This will be the last reply to any of your post. I sense a lot of anger and hostility in your post and, quite frankly, it is absolutely unbecoming of a Deacon. Do you remember that you are suppose to be a servant of mercy? I do not think that I ever advocated any political correctness, called anyone a racist, or any imaginary ideas you may have in your head. You and other brothers in this forum have accused Dr. Jarvis Williams of certain things. It is your duty as a fellow brother in Christ, and an ordained servant of the church to seek answers from your brother before you make accusations, judgments, and claims about him. You are your brother's keeper, remember?


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## Philip (Apr 1, 2016)

Edward said:


> Folks that want to retain their cultural distinctives but want to deny me the right to keep my cultural distinctives are the real bigots.



Who's saying you can't?



Edward said:


> "Heads, you win, Tails, I lose" is something I moved past in elementary school.



Sure. You have that option. Black people don't. Because the other game is rigged in your favour and mine.

Indulge me in a quote from a source who you might listen to:



> The forbearing use of power does not only form a touchstone, but the manner in which an individual enjoys certain advantages over others is a test of a true gentleman.
> 
> The power which the strong have over the weak, the employer over the employed, the educated over the unlettered, the experienced over the confiding, even the clever over the silly--the forbearing or inoffensive use of all this power or authority, or a total abstinence from it when the case admits it, will show the gentleman in a plain light
> ~Robert E. Lee



In this context, I take this to mean that we, as white people, when we recognize that we have advantages on that account, need to be careful in our exercise of those advantages to use them for the benefit of those who are not so advantaged. Our customs, our practices, our ways of thinking are, even unconsciously, considered simply normal in our society. Should this fill us with shame? No. But it should humble us and cause us to act as Christian gentlemen (and gentlewomen) for the sake of our brothers and sisters who are not so privileged.

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## Jerusalem Blade (Apr 1, 2016)

Thanks for your post, Rich L. That's helpful. The church I'm in now is the most multi-ethnic I've been in in the U.S. The breakdown is perhaps 30% Black, 30% Latino, 40% Caucasian, with a handful of Asians.

I wasn't in the USMC long enough to experience the enculturation there you speak of (plus I went in in '59, a different era), but as a member of the sixties counterculture I did experience there a similar sort of enculturation to what you depicted.

And now in 2016 in NYC I appreciate your approach. What is important to me now is the developing relationships—friendships—with folks of other ethnicities so that we can talk from the heart. We have all experienced ethnic bigotry and suffered from it, maybe carrying deep scars, but Blacks far more than others, so as we talk to one another, pray with and for one another, and learn each other's hearts, healing and real friendship do occur.

I don't have much hope for the general culture outside the church, save in evangelizing it, though one thing I try to do when talking to unsaved ethnic minorities is tell of how Christ has ordered His kingdom—His communities of grace—and how that _only_ there is there hope of real friendship and trust across ethnic divides, for under His kingdom law there is to be genuine respect, equality, love, "thinking others better than ourselves" (Phil 2:3; Rom 12:10), and other character attributes that conduce to real friendship.

In my view, such friendship is the cement that holds the living stones of God's house together. It makes us more family than natural family, for the water of baptism is thicker than blood.


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## Pergamum (Apr 1, 2016)

Philip said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> > OK, he doesn't say they are racist. He's just saying they are perpetuating racism.
> ...



Can you define acting black versus acting white? And how do these compare with acting Christian? If ethnic characteristics are homogenous enough to label someone "acting black' or "white" for certain consistent behaviors then this would allow us to criticize or praise blacks or whites in a generic fashion as a bloc group for how they act, right? But isn't this what we don't want to do?


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## Philip (Apr 1, 2016)

Pergamum said:


> Can you define acting black versus acting white?



Particular speech patterns ("ebonics" vs. "midwestern accent"), attitudes toward money, attitudes toward authority figures, "Uncle Tomming," etc. Can I define it exactly? No, but we all know it when we see it.



Pergamum said:


> And how do these compare with acting Christian?



Christianity both transcends and critiques both white people and black people.



Pergamum said:


> If ethnic characteristics are homogenous enough to label someone "acting black' or "white" for certain consistent behaviors then this would allow us to criticize or praise blacks or whites in a generic fashion as a bloc group for how they act, right? But isn't this what we don't want to do?



Again, this is much more unconscious than that. And when pressed most of us wouldn't necessarily assign moral value to these things, but they influence the way we treat people and judge people nonetheless and we have to be conscious of that.

As a missionary, you understand something of how this works: your children, when they go to college, will encounter all sorts of unwritten rules and social codes that they were unaware of and have to navigate, yet they will be judged on them. It's not _ethical_ as such, but it is definitely real. In fact part of what sensitized me to this stuff was having friends who were "third culture."

Reactions: Like 1


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Apr 1, 2016)

rreyes329 said:


> Hi, Edward,
> 
> This will be the last reply to any of your post. I sense a lot of anger and hostility in your post and, quite frankly, it is absolutely unbecoming of a Deacon. Do you remember that you are suppose to be a servant of mercy? I do not think that I ever advocated any political correctness, called anyone a racist, or any imaginary ideas you may have in your head. You and other brothers in this forum have accused Dr. Jarvis Williams of certain things. It is your duty as a fellow brother in Christ, and an ordained servant of the church to seek answers from your brother before you make accusations, judgments, and claims about him. You are your brother's keeper, remember?



This may win an award for lack of self-awareness.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Apr 1, 2016)

Philip said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> > Folks that want to retain their cultural distinctives but want to deny me the right to keep my cultural distinctives are the real bigots.
> ...



See this is the nonsense that makes my blood boil, to be frank.

There is no "advantage" or "privilege" to growing up poor in the mountains in West Virginia or Eastern Kentucky just because your skin is of a lighter hue. 

You ever tried to get a job in a posh D.C. suburb with a hick accent? You might as well just show up in your overalls and straw hat. 

I will not be a party to this arrogant upper-middle class white guilt.


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## arapahoepark (Apr 2, 2016)

Philip said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> > Folks that want to retain their cultural distinctives but want to deny me the right to keep my cultural distinctives are the real bigots.
> ...


So you're saying since I am darker in color I suddenly don't have the advantages of someone who is lighter?

That's news to me.


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## Philip (Apr 2, 2016)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> There is no "advantage" or "privilege" to growing up poor in the mountains in West Virginia or Eastern Kentucky just because your skin is of a lighter hue.
> 
> You ever tried to get a job in a posh D.C. suburb with a hick accent? You might as well just show up in your overalls and straw hat.



Not denying this in the slightest. Black people aren't the only disadvantaged in this country, nor would I say that the advantages of being white would outweigh the disadvantage of growing up in rural Virginia or West Virginia or wherever. Race is by no means the only dimension of advantage or privilege. Certainly a black man who grew up in Spingfield, Virginia in a stable home and has good credit has more privileges that a white man who grew up in Chilhowie or Covington Virginia in poverty. No question that race is a relatively minor issue in that comparison.

Of course it's racist to speed on past the trailer park on the way to do "ministry in the hood." That's yet another area where the church needs to recognize its failings.



Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> I will not be a party to this arrogant upper-middle class white guilt.



Where did I say guilt? As someone from an upper-middle class white background I have responsibility to use my advantages for the good of my brothers, my neighbours, and the kingdom. Is that a burden of guilt? Is that something to be ashamed of? No. Again, I point you to Robert E. Lee's quote: "the manner in which an individual enjoys certain advantages over others is a test of a true gentleman."



arapahoepark said:


> So you're saying since I am darker in color I suddenly don't have the advantages of someone who is lighter?



I wouldn't say that skin colour is the only kind of advantage.


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## rreyes329 (Apr 2, 2016)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Philip said:
> 
> 
> > Edward said:
> ...




Only a lack of self-awareness would drive someone to make the these kind of comments. Furthermore, the conversation I was having had nothing to do with white-guilt. If you would have read my words, which I know you did, you would have noticed that my post dealt with certain men in this forum who have accused another brother of certain things; made false judgments about him; and, refuse to contact the man in order to get clarification. It is really bizarre how you and others will attack; yet, not ask any questions. Where is the reasoning and dialogue? Where is the grace? It's baffling. By the way, I've met you before at RPTS, Rev. Benjamin Glaser. So, how have you been?


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## Semper Fidelis (Apr 2, 2016)

There are a ton of things I want to share but I am constrained by time. Just a few observations:

1. I think there was a time when people who named Christ were in the power structures and controlled what amounted to a closed society. I think those times are passed and to live in the past as if white Christians still have the power to undo what might have been done in the past is ignoring the current situation. White Church-going Christians can't even mount enough votes in the Republican party to get "their guy" nominated. They can't even convince the Governer of Georgia or Indiana to protect religious liberty.

2. I think a lot of what I've read about "racial reconciliation" is a mixed bag of good and bad. The good is the acknowledgment of public sins committed by forefathers and the desires to form trans-cultural friendships and understanding. The bad is the adoption of Moltmann's theology of open friendship and Miroslav Volf's ideas of reconciliation that compromise the actual meanings of key aspects of Scripture. In one book I'm reading, the spirituality of the Church is viewed nothing more than as something Southern White Presbyterians invented to maintain white power structures when, in fact, it is part of the Westminster Confession of Faith written by ministers who hardly were protecting some sort of cultural "status quo". Part of the problem is that there are significantly unclear statements about privilege and that the gospel requires "justice" that are exegetically tenuous at best the moment that delves into social policy and righting wrongs that have continued social consequences.

3. A lot of these conversations treat "white" or "black" culture as monolithic. Tell that to the country of Belgium and the sharp divisions within a single country. I believe skin color certainly affects perceptions but there is a tendency to treat "white people" as some sort of cultural monolith.

4. To the point of God creating the races - I believe this and I believe there is beauty in the diversity. What I really struggle with is some obsession over skin color. There is a certain irony here. One of the fundamental reasons some Southern Presbyterians argued for segregation and not inter-marrying was an idea that God created the races like He created the colors of the rainbow. It was thought even abominable or that the children created by inter-marriage would be sickly or somehow messed up. To a large degree white America (if you want to use that term again) has overcome the idea that the races need to be separate. In one sense, the consistent messaging was to be color blind and take people on who they are and not the color of their skin. Now, when the fruit of that messaging becomes a reality, the messaging now is that when a white person doesn't really consciously think to treat a black or Chinese person differently or doesn't "see their color", this is a form of "micro-aggression". It's turned into an insidious thing.

Again, as I noted before, we need to be sensitive to how people think and who they are. I need to understand my black neighbor and the things he's been through but is it possible that the culture now is messaging minorities to take needless offense? Are we, perhaps, creating strife by turning everything into micro-aggression.

5. There's a certain irony to some who are advocating that we use our privilege for good. It actually is consistent with the duties of superiors to inferiors in the 5th Commandment. In an increasingly egalitarian culture, however, any attempt that a person makes with privilege to consider it his duty to help lift another up is met with words like "patriarchy". I think the ability to help those in difficulty is, in large measure, to the complete destruction of respect and the idea that the elderly or those in positions of authority or ability should be afforded some respect (per the 5th commandment) while those in superior relationships owe kindness and care to those who need help. There are all sorts of political and philosophical things interfering even between Christian and Christian as we seek to help each other out. Getting back to the issue of race, if we could merely treat people on abilities, age, station, etc then we could know whom to help and whom to render honor.

6. In the end, I don't know exactly how to sort this all out. I agree with Steve that the culture has so degenerated that these ills are not going to be cured by the culture itself. I believe in the spirituality of the Church not because I'm protecting some status quo that favors me. I actually wish that some would step back and ask whether a believing Evangelical or any color or culture is really in some sort of advantageous position in this culture. Christian to Christian I believe we can at best make friends and understand one another so that the Lord's Table is shared visibly together. I think expectations that I, as part of the dominant "white culture", have the power within me to change the social structures seems to expect far too much of a person. Yes, there are some terrible things that have happened in the past and I grieve over them. I even realize that my father was able to climb out of poverty perhaps with more ease than his counterpart of another race. Even if I believed that I was part of some broader "white culture" where we decided to fix the wrongs of the past, I just don't think that any evangelical can undo the consequences of the past. My own sense is that we need to befriend fellow believers in Christ of all races and focus on the work of the Body of Christ. I just don't think that redeeming culture is the solution.


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## rreyes329 (Apr 2, 2016)

Hi, Rich,

Thank you for your thoughtful words. I agree with much that you have said. One thing I really want to affirm is the obsession many Christians have with trying to redeem the culture. I know that I and, many like me, are more interested in reforming the church, not the culture. Furthermore, I too believe that as long as there is honesty about what has gone on in the past and what continues to go on in the present in the church in relation to prejudice, then it is time for the church to move forward with living out the unity we have in Christ. But, I fear that many in the visible body of Christ still deny the realities of yesteryear and what still goes on behind church doors. Moreover, I also fear that many in the visible body of Christ are willing to accept non-white Christians only on their terms. For instance, I have known many American, white Christians who love to talk with me about Reformed theology, philosophy, exegesis, etc, and will accept me on those terms; but, their faces contort and are no longer interested in friendships once we get into cultural discussions, and they realize that, as Puerto Rican who grew up in the Bronx, I do not share their perspectives. And, I'm not demanding that they share my perspective, I just want to be given the same respect they demand, be heard, and valued. Lastly, let me affirm two things: 1) I have deep friendships with some very gracious American, white brothers. And, we disagree on several levels about a host of different topics. But, they listen and they care. 2)Let me affirm your call to friendships between brothers and sisters of different ethnic and cultural backgrounds, because it is important for the church to cross the lines that sin and this world creates, especially since the church of King Jesus Christ is not mono-ethnic; rather, it is made up of those from every tongue, tribe, and nation.


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## Edward (Apr 2, 2016)

rreyes329 said:


> Only a lack of self-awareness would drive someone to make the these kind of comments.



And I'll repeat: "invest in a mirror". If The Man holding you down means you can't afford a mirror, I can send you a few dollars to get one at Family Dollar. Although I do suspect your income exceeds that of this Cracker. 



Philip said:


> unconsciously



Well, if I was a student, I'd probably complain that your microagression triggered me, and that I need a Safe Space in which to curl up in a ball and whimper. But since I'm not, just congratulate yourself that I rose to the bait. And be aware - I don't have any _unconscious_ bias.


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## rreyes329 (Apr 2, 2016)

Edward said:


> rreyes329 said:
> 
> 
> > Only a lack of self-awareness would drive someone to make the these kind of comments.
> ...




Edward,

All I can say is, wow! So, the only thing you're capable of is insults and ad hominems? I am ashamed for you, especially since you're a deacon. Listen, please don't continue to address me, as you have nothing meaningful to say to me right now. Perhaps others enjoy you talking this way, but I don't. I'll let you have the last word, as I won't address you again.


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## Edward (Apr 2, 2016)

rreyes329 said:


> Edward,
> 
> All I can say is, wow! So, the only thing you're capable of is insults and ad hominems? I am ashamed for you, especially since you're a deacon. Listen, please don't continue to address me, as you have nothing meaningful to say to me right now. Perhaps others enjoy you talking this way, but I don't. I'll let you have the last word, as I won't address you again.



Perhaps the appropriate response to that is to say, "I'm ashamed for you, especially since you're a Chaplain."


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## py3ak (Apr 2, 2016)

Well, I suspect the potential for helpful discussion has sailed. Thread closed.


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## Semper Fidelis (Apr 2, 2016)

rreyes329 said:


> Hi, Rich,
> 
> Thank you for your thoughtful words. I agree with much that you have said. One thing I really want to affirm is the obsession many Christians have with trying to redeem the culture. I know that I and, many like me, are more interested in reforming the church, not the culture. Furthermore, I too believe that as long as there is honesty about what has gone on in the past and what continues to go on in the present in the church in relation to prejudice, then it is time for the church to move forward with living out the unity we have in Christ. But, I fear that many in the visible body of Christ still deny the realities of yesteryear and what still goes on behind church doors. Moreover, I also fear that many in the visible body of Christ are willing to accept non-white Christians only on their terms. For instance, I have known many American, white Christians who love to talk with me about Reformed theology, philosophy, exegesis, etc, and will accept me on those terms; but, their faces contort and are no longer interested in friendships once we get into cultural discussions, and they realize that, as Puerto Rican who grew up in the Bronx, I do not share their perspectives. And, I'm not demanding that they share my perspective, I just want to be given the same respect they demand, be heard, and valued. Lastly, let me affirm two things: 1) I have deep friendships with some very gracious American, white brothers. And, we disagree on several levels about a host of different topics. But, they listen and they care. 2)Let me affirm your call to friendships between brothers and sisters of different ethnic and cultural backgrounds, because it is important for the church to cross the lines that sin and this world creates, especially since the church of King Jesus Christ is not mono-ethnic; rather, it is made up of those from every tongue, tribe, and nation.



I think there is always a need to be a welcoming place for all kinds of people. We need to be willing to be uncomfortable or awkward around people who don't share some of our backgrounds and assumptions. I guess (and many) tend to see these as cultural rather than racial. The Jew/Gentile divide wasn't racial as much as it was religio-culural (if that's a word). The wall of separation wasn't about skin color as much as it was overcoming a sort of institutional hostility. Acts 2, for instance, records Jews from all the surrounding nations.

When I lived in Okinawa the SBC Church I attended conducted a VBS and used a canned curriculum that included the Pledge of Allegiance to the U.S. Flag. It simply did not occur to some of the ladies leading it that this portion of the VBS needed to be excised because Okinawan children from the Church and the community were participating. Was it harmless? I'm not sure I would call it harmless but it wasn't racist or any attempt to be aggresive toward the children who were part of the congregation. It was probably just not thought through very well.

I guess I'm sometimes on both sides of this issue. I understand how a homogenous culture in a Church can just assume they're welcoming and not realize that even their idioms (much less their shared political ideas) might be perceived as unwelcoming to someone outside their group. I would like to think that the Gospel is supposed to enculturate people into the Kingdom of God so that they take captive which parts of their culture are distinctively Christian and what parts are peculiar to their region but I also realize that people are growing and at different stages.

What I think some people are reacting to is a sort of unnecessary aggresion toward people who are otherwise trying to be kind. If, for instance, I thought kimchi or bulgogi was gross I might graciously receive the kindness rather than make an ugly face to the person - after all, the Korean should be more sensitive if I'm an American in Korea and not exhibit "micro-agression" toward me.

In other words I think there is real racism and then there is what I consider to be largely a sociological idea of "micro-aggression" that paints an entire culture of people as inherently racist even when they're trying to be kind. In one sense, there's sort of a reverse form of paternalism going on (if that's a bad thing after all) where someone says: "We really need to fix white people so they stop thinking they're being nice when what they're doing offends me because they are not recognizing my culture."

I think what Romans commands us to do is to try and outdo one another in showing honor. I need to do my best to try to get to know people and figure out what barriers I may be unconsciously putting in the way of the Gospel. I need to get to know them. In the same way, however, there is sort of a militant form of criticism directed at white people in general that they are privileged and are "micro-aggressive". This is not only such a broad generalization as to catch up every white person (of multiple cultures and socio-economic backgrounds) into its net that it can barely serve any purpose other than angering people and giving them a sense that the 9th Commandment has been violated where the worst of a person is thought of instead of assuming the best.

Like I said, I go back and forth on this. I guess I'm disappointed because I expect some of these sweeping generalizaitons when one adopts liberation theology. The worldview cannot really survive without a continued sense of oppression and I think that a lot of academic and sociological research is sort of inbuilt to continue to perpetuate oppression and even invent "micro-aggression" in order to keep oppression existent. It just seems to me that, on the surface of things, there are some minority brothers (whom I love) who borrow the same language and I'm not expecting them to pretend as if nothing bad has ever happened or that we don't need to learn how to be more welcoming but I don't expect the same kind of crude broad-brushing of white people as necessarily privileged (when clearly some are not) or racist (even if all they mean by that is "micro-agression" as defined as I tried to be kind in a way I thought would be kind but it offended you).


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