# Rev. Mohler in Controversy



## Herald (Mar 15, 2007)

Not sure what to make of this. I haven't read Al Mohlers article, but this certainly caught my eye.

*Gay Babies*

Thoughts?


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## Ravens (Mar 15, 2007)

I have no problem with saying there could be a biological and/or "inborn" basis in some cases of homosexuality. Personally I think we concede far too much ground to the humanists and secularists when we stake our whole claim (as evangelicalism often does) on the fact that it's a "choice."

If science could "prove" (presuppositional apologetics aside) that homosexuality was genetic, it wouldn't negate the culpability that attaches to it one whit; we affirm that all humans are born totally depraved, spiritually dead, and helplessly lost in sin. 

So if a heart can be born hating God, bent on it's own interest, dead, and prone to all manners of evil, and be culpable for the whole kit-n'-kaboodle, why would "inborn" homosexuality be given a pass?

Christians should instead respond with the doctrine of original sin, that we're all depraved from birth anyway, and will be held liable, and not make the sinfulness of homosexuality to be predicated on some adult "choice" (even if, in many cases, it is).


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## VaughanRSmith (Mar 15, 2007)




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## ChristianTrader (Mar 15, 2007)

BaptistInCrisis said:


> Not sure what to make of this. I haven't read Al Mohlers article, but this certainly caught my eye.
> 
> *Gay Babies*
> 
> Thoughts?



I think most tendencies have some level of biological basis. That is not a problem unless one is going to say that "my genes made me do it". There is a vast difference between some level of causation and saying that I have no control over it.

When push come to shove, how is it any harder to swallow than saying that someone's upbringing/nurture has lead them to a certain lifestyle or pattern of living , yet that lifestyle is still sin and is still a suppression of the truth.

CT


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## Semper Fidelis (Mar 15, 2007)

Exactly. My genes make me predisposed toward getting fat and eating too much.

I also must come out of the closet: I prefer women. I always have. Ever since I was a young boy, I was attracted to them. I must control this tendency as well because I'm married to a woman I'm commanded to be faithful to.


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## Beoga (Mar 15, 2007)

I have no problem with saying that people are "born gay." Homosexuality is still a sin in the eyes of God no matter the person. Someone who is "born gay" and engages in homosexual actions are still responsible and guilty before the eyes of God.


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## Theoretical (Mar 15, 2007)

JDWiseman said:


> I have no problem with saying there could be a biological and/or "inborn" basis in some cases of homosexuality. Personally I think we concede far too much ground to the humanists and secularists when we stake our whole claim (as evangelicalism often does) on the fact that it's a "choice."
> 
> If science could "prove" (presuppositional apologetics aside) that homosexuality was genetic, it wouldn't negate the culpability that attaches to it one whit; we affirm that all humans are born totally depraved, spiritually dead, and helplessly lost in sin.
> 
> ...




Truly great points.


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## panta dokimazete (Mar 15, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> Exactly. My genes make me predisposed toward getting fat and eating too much.



Me, too - just not doing as well in "mortifying the flesh" in this area...



> I also must come out of the closet: I prefer women. I always have. Ever since I was a young boy, I was attracted to them. I must control this tendency as well because I'm married to a woman I'm commanded to be faithful to.



...but doing MUCH better in this arena! 

Just because it is "inborn" does not make it right.

I mean - really - what does genetic predisposition really mean and is it a surprise - hasn't alcoholism been strongly attributed to genetic predisposition?

Should it be ok because it's genetic? Would you pre-natally treat it if it were proven, safe and available?

Sure you would.

Heck - I'd treat my kids for genetic obesity!

Do you think it would solve our/their sin problem?


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## Herald (Mar 15, 2007)

I remember sitting under the teaching of the late Dr. Harold Whitcomb of Grace Theological Seminary. He was a scholar in the area of creationism. I remember his lecture on recessive genes. He used the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics to make his point. The human race is getting worse, not better. Mutations multiply with each successive generation. His theory was that if Jesus never returns, eventually the human race would be unable to survive. The part that really piqued by interest is what he said in response to aberrant behaviors in society. Some of them could be traced back to a predispostion within the womb. His scientific argument is above my head. I'm just a simple Baptist from New Jersey. But after reading the article on Rev. Mohler, it caused me to think back to his course 19 years ago.


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## Semper Fidelis (Mar 15, 2007)

BaptistInCrisis said:


> I'm just a simple Baptist from New Jersey. But after reading the article on Rev. Mohler, it caused me to think back to his course 19 years ago.



Joysey? Which exit?


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## ChristopherPaul (Mar 15, 2007)

JDWiseman said:


> I have no problem with saying there could be a biological and/or "inborn" basis in some cases of homosexuality. Personally I think we concede far too much ground to the humanists and secularists when we stake our whole claim (as evangelicalism often does) on the fact that it's a "choice."
> 
> If science could "prove" (presuppositional apologetics aside) that homosexuality was genetic, it wouldn't negate the culpability that attaches to it one whit; we affirm that all humans are born totally depraved, spiritually dead, and helplessly lost in sin.
> 
> ...




Well said brother!


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## BJClark (Mar 15, 2007)

SemperFideles;



> Exactly. My genes make me predisposed toward getting fat and eating too much.
> 
> I also must come out of the closet: I prefer women. I always have. Ever since I was a young boy, I was attracted to them. I must control this tendency as well because I'm married to a woman I'm commanded to be faithful to.



Just as I prefer men, always have, and I too must control my own tendancies in order to remain faithful, especially emotionally faithful when I feel my husband and I are not spending enough time together because the business of life tends to take over. We must make it a priority to sit and talk and fully enjoy each other. And we must at times tell our children NO, to some activities so that all of the competing activities do not pull us apart.


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## Herald (Mar 15, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> Joysey? Which exit?



Forgedabodit.


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## Semper Fidelis (Mar 15, 2007)

BaptistInCrisis said:


> Forgedabodit.



Dude, I'm serious. Which exit did you live off of?


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## caddy (Mar 15, 2007)

Absolutely !

Excellent point here JD. There is a member of my wife's extended family that _came_ out a few years ago. I am reminded by Scripture that if Christ set us apart before the foundation of the world, certainly he has done the same for those that do not _honor him as God_ [nor] _give thanks to him._





JDWiseman said:


> I have no problem with saying there could be a biological and/or "inborn" basis in some cases of homosexuality. Personally I think we concede far too much ground to the humanists and secularists when we stake our whole claim (as evangelicalism often does) on the fact that it's a "choice."
> 
> If science could "prove" (presuppositional apologetics aside) that homosexuality was genetic, it wouldn't negate the culpability that attaches to it one whit; we affirm that all humans are born totally depraved, spiritually dead, and helplessly lost in sin.
> 
> ...


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## Herald (Mar 15, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> Dude, I'm serious. Which exit did you live off of?



 15W.

I live in Maryland now, but I was born and raised in Kearny, NJ..exit 15W off the Turnpike.

You know, it's really sad when you DO live off a Turnpike exit.


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## Founded on the Rock (Mar 15, 2007)

Mr. Brown, 

Are you talking about Grace Theological Seminary in Winona Lake, Indiana? Because that is only about an hour away from my home town....

It's such a small world....


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## kvanlaan (Mar 15, 2007)

I know that lots of people have already done this, but I've never thought about this issue in this way, so I'm going to have to quote this:



> I have no problem with saying there could be a biological and/or "inborn" basis in some cases of homosexuality. Personally I think we concede far too much ground to the humanists and secularists when we stake our whole claim (as evangelicalism often does) on the fact that it's a "choice."
> 
> If science could "prove" (presuppositional apologetics aside) that homosexuality was genetic, it wouldn't negate the culpability that attaches to it one whit; we affirm that all humans are born totally depraved, spiritually dead, and helplessly lost in sin.
> 
> ...



...because I love that line of reasoning.

Thanks!


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## Founded on the Rock (Mar 15, 2007)

JDWiseman said:


> I have no problem with saying there could be a biological and/or "inborn" basis in some cases of homosexuality. Personally I think we concede far too much ground to the humanists and secularists when we stake our whole claim (as evangelicalism often does) on the fact that it's a "choice."
> 
> If science could "prove" (presuppositional apologetics aside) that homosexuality was genetic, it wouldn't negate the culpability that attaches to it one whit; we affirm that all humans are born totally depraved, spiritually dead, and helplessly lost in sin.
> 
> ...



 

The problem is many Evangelicals cannot define or defend orignal sin. Humanism is RAMPANT through evangelicalism... And the worst part is, if they hear someone say that there is a genetic predisposition towards homosexuality (I am not saying this is absolutely true), they think that person is attacking Christianity... I know because my parents feel this way and so does the church they attend.


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## Theoretical (Mar 15, 2007)

Founded on the Rock said:


> The problem is many Evangelicals cannot define or defend orignal sin. Humanism is RAMPANT through evangelicalism... And the worst part is, if they hear someone say that there is a genetic predisposition towards homosexuality (I am not saying this is absolutely true), they think that person is attacking Christianity... I know because my parents feel this way and so does the church they attend.




That's a huge point, Brandon, and so very true.


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## gwine (Mar 15, 2007)

BaptistInCrisis said:


> I remember sitting under the teaching of the late Dr. Harold Whitcomb of Grace Theological Seminary. He was a scholar in the area of creationism. I remember his lecture on recessive genes. He used the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics to make his point. The human race is getting worse, not better. Mutations multiply with each successive generation. His theory was that if Jesus never returns, eventually the human race would be unable to survive. The part that really piqued by interest is what he said in response to aberrant behaviors in society. Some of them could be traced back to a predispostion within the womb. His scientific argument is above my head. I'm just a simple Baptist from New Jersey. But after reading the article on Rev. Mohler, it caused me to think back to his course 19 years ago.


I'm not sure I would agree that the human race is getting worse, but then I'm just a simple Christian from Indiana. I'm not sure, though, that not all mutations are necessarily bad. Animal and plant breeding programs are basically using genetics to pass on favorable traits that are sometimes caused by DNA changes (mutations.)

Although bacterial mutations may not be a good thing . . .


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## Semper Fidelis (Mar 15, 2007)

BaptistInCrisis said:


> 15W.
> 
> I live in Maryland now, but I was born and raised in Kearny, NJ..exit 15W off the Turnpike.
> 
> You know, it's really sad when you DO live off a Turnpike exit.



I only asked because my Uncle lives in Pennsville (Exit 1) right across the Delaware Memorial Bridge.

Seriously, though, I've never met a person in NJ that doesn't know the exit number they live off of.


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## Herald (Mar 15, 2007)

Founded on the Rock said:


> Mr. Brown,
> 
> Are you talking about Grace Theological Seminary in Winona Lake, Indiana? Because that is only about an hour away from my home town....
> 
> It's such a small world....



Brandon, yes. That was the school that Dr. Whitcomb was associated with.


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## Herald (Mar 15, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> I only asked because my Uncle lives in Pennsville (Exit 1) right across the Delaware Memorial Bridge.
> 
> Seriously, though, I've never met a person in NJ that doesn't know the exit number they live off of.



Pennsville? No the area well. I have friends and family that live from exit 1 to exit 2. It is a 60 minuted drive to the Delaware Memorial Bridge from my house.


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## Herald (Mar 15, 2007)

gwine said:


> I'm not sure I would agree that the human race is getting worse, but then I'm just a simple Christian from Indiana. I'm not sure, though, that not all mutations are necessarily bad. Animal and plant breeding programs are basically using genetics to pass on favorable traits that are sometimes caused by DNA changes (mutations.)
> 
> Although bacterial mutations may not be a good thing . . .



Gerry, Dr. Whitcomb taught (with considerable scientific data behind him) that the human race was genetically getting worse. As with anything, small case studies can be cited that seem to contradict the larger picture. Such is the case today with evolutionists who are attempting to refute the Law of Entropy (the second law of Thermodynamics). I am not a physics expert, but some scientific data is irrefutable. For example, the orbit of the earth around the sun is in state of decay. Our planet's orbit is decaying at a minute rate , but it is decaying. Given enough time, the climate on Earth will be uninhabitable. To bring this example closer to home, the International Space Station is in a low-earth orbit of roughly 220 miles. The gravitational drag on the space station would bring it back into our planet's atmosphere in less than a decade. To prevent this the stations orbit will be adjusted with the help of rocket boosters. I'm not sure my example is proof of entropy, but it certainly doesn't paint a picture of things getting better on their own.


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## SRoper (Mar 15, 2007)

BaptistInCrisis said:


> Gerry, Dr. Whitcomb taught (with considerable scientific data behind him) that the human race was genetically getting worse. As with anything, small case studies can be cited that seem to contradict the larger picture. Such is the case today with evolutionists who are attempting to refute the Law of Entropy (the second law of Thermodynamics). I am not a physics expert, but some scientific data is irrefutable. For example, the orbit of the earth around the sun is in state of decay. Our planet's orbit is decaying at a minute rate , but it is decaying. Given enough time, the climate on Earth will be uninhabitable. To bring this example closer to home, the International Space Station is in a low-earth orbit of roughly 220 miles. The gravitational drag on the space station would bring it back into our planet's atmosphere in less than a decade. To prevent this the stations orbit will be adjusted with the help of rocket boosters. I'm not sure my example is proof of entropy, but it certainly doesn't paint a picture of things getting better on their own.



I just wanted to comment that the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics cannot be used as an argument against evolution. I don't want to sidetrack this thread, so we can continue this elsewhere if you wish.

I am glad that most people who have posted are comfortable with the possibility that homosexuality might have a genetic component. I have long held that this possibility should not be a problem for Christians, but I thought I was in the extreme minority.

About a month ago a friend pointed out a book on our church book table for people who are struggling with same-sex attraction (several members of our church are former homosexuals and are active in ministry in this area). He showed me the opening sentence of the book which was something like, "There is no scientific evidence for a genetic predisposition towards homosexuality," and he had a problem with that. I agreed. While that may have been true at the time the book was published, why risk stating that with the possibility of being refuted in a few years? And what's with telling people that they aren't in as bad of shape as they thought? I thought the gospel is Christ came to save sinners.


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## Herald (Mar 15, 2007)

Scott - I wouldn't use Entropy to attack evolution either. Entropy teaches order to disorder. This alone isn't cause enough to use Entropy as an argument against evolution, although others (Dr. Whitcomb among them) have. I simply brought it up to illustrate that society, like the physical world around us, is degenerating.

I suppose this means I can never be post-mil.


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## Semper Fidelis (Mar 15, 2007)

Keep in mind that I don't want to give too much away either. In fact, greater than a genetic pre-disposition, there is a huge correlation to homosexuality that you'll never see studied: childhood sexual abuse. The correlation is through the roof.

The goal of treating it as a genetic disposition is acting as if there is nothing that can be done. It's rather like the cop out that alchoholism is a disease and not a sin. If it's in my genes then I am somehow off the hook for it. If it fundamentally a sin issue then I have full responsibility for it.

I do believe there is potentially a genetic aspect to the Fall but let's not weaken our resolve to help people to repent of this sin. We ought not conclude that merely because a man is born a bit effeminate and was raised by a single mom and molested by a man as a child and became confused sexually that he's "stuck" now. 

In fact, many make the full turn because there is a seeming acceptance in a crowd of people who are just like them. These kids are picked last for sports, made fun of at school, socially shunned in many cases, and then get into a crowd that seems very accepting. Unfortunately the gay lifestyle has even taken on a bit of a "cool factor" these days so why not try it out?

Chuck McIllhenny wrote a book called _When the Wicked Sieze a City_ about his experiences as an OPC pastor in San Francisco. His daughter, Erin, is married to my former pastor and they are close friends. 

Years ago, one of the men of the Church came forward and repented of the sin of homosexuality. He also revealed, at that point, that the organist was a practicing homosexual. The organist was an employee of the Church and refused to repent and so, after appropriate discipline failed, he was put out of the Church. Well, he sued the Church. The Church came under the ire of the "open-minded" gay community. Chuck's parsonage was firebombed one night while his wife and kids were still in it.

Things settled down but here is the telling part of the story. Chuck keeps up with the goings on in the gay community and follow obituaries. _Every activist that was after his Church at that time is now dead. The organist is now dead._ The only one still alive is the man who repented of his homosexual sin.

Now I've never met the man but I'm told that he is not what we might call a "man's man". But he repented of the sin. Might he have slipped occassionally along the way? Perhaps, but don't we all sin in gross ways? Unfortunately, the only type of deliverance of homosexuality ever lifted up is that the guy is now manly and happily married with 5 kids. Real people take a while, sometimes, to be sanctified and some are never going to change their patterns of speech and way of walking. 

But they're still redeemed. How we think of homosexuality says a lot about how we think about the Gospel.


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## Ivan (Mar 15, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> Keep in mind that I don't want to give too much away either. In fact, greater than a genetic pre-disposition, there is a huge correlation to homosexuality that you'll never see studied: childhood sexual abuse. The correlation is through the roof.
> 
> The goal of treating it as a genetic disposition is acting as if there is nothing that can be done. It's rather like the cop out that alchoholism is a disease and not a sin. If it's in my genes then I am somehow off the hook for it. If it fundamentally a sin issue then I have full responsibility for it.
> 
> ...



Good post, Rich. I agree.

What I bold-faced is truly amazing. I think I need to read that book.


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## Ivan (Mar 15, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> Chuck McIllhenny wrote a book called _When the Wicked Sieze a City_ about his experiences as an OPC pastor in San Francisco. His daughter, Erin, is married to my former pastor and they are close friends.



Just bought the book on eBay. Thanks, Rich.


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## Ravens (Mar 16, 2007)

I was reading a secular sports-based foruml this morning, and someone had mentioned this story in one of the political off-shoot threads. They pointed out the absurdity of the "pro-choice" crowd getting offended or upset by Mohler's stance; apparently, its alright to slaughter these biological lumps and throw them out with the trash, but not alright to tinker with their genetics.

I know the article touched on that correlation a couple times, but I was thinking so much about culpability that I didn't really look at it from that angle.

But it does show the irrationality of sin; a crime of all crimes to mess with genes that might make a baby heterosexual, but perfectly acceptable and amoral to take that same lump of cells and give it to Molech.


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## staythecourse (Mar 16, 2007)

*Dr Mohler's blogs on homosexuality*

Here's the Dr. Mohler's blog.

http://www.albertmohler.com

He clarified some statements of his. He was surprised that his statements aroused as much media attention as they did.

You can read the articles for themselves as they are not too long. I, too, misunderstood what he was saying. I had read the article and believed he advocated hormonal therapy should homosexuality be found to be influenced by genetics. I strongly disapproved of that thinking as I saw it to be a form of refined Nazism (man's attempt at creating a sinless man) man playing God in a testtube - a sort of Frankensteinian attempt at creating a moral man.

In short, I am sure he regrets poor wording, lack of clarity, and the resultant misunderstandings which provoked ire and hatred so that even a student of his believed he made a gross mistake in judgment.

God continue to sanctify him as he influences many a thousand.


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## Chris (Mar 16, 2007)

Thanks for the link to his updated and clarified thoughts. 

I wonder if Mohler really realizes what a powerful position God had put him in?


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## staythecourse (Mar 16, 2007)

*I know what you meant, Chris*

Dr. Mohler is a sober young man (young by many standards). We have to remember he became the president of the flagship SBC seminary while in his early thirties and stayed more flint-faced in ousting tenured professors here than I could ever be. By the Lord's grace, he was used to reclaim Biblical inerrancy in a major denomination, refused to approve women in the pulpit, removed psychology classes and replacing it with Biblical counseling (to the irritation of all those about to get their degree for secular work), hired a creationist to head its new science division, and forced the profs to wear slacks and jackets to-boot! He continues to do more here internally and if God keeps him alive, more purity here should result (please pray it occur)

If he obviously slips up, he's got many a people that will enjoy correcting him. This may have been a reminder from our Maker via the church and society to be more careful in the wording and thoughts he posts. That said, if I ever become a public figure, please erase _all_ of my posts.

To God be the glory.


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## ServantOfKing (Mar 16, 2007)

"3. Given the consequences of the Fall and the effects of human sin, we should not be surprised that such a causation or link is found. After all, the human genetic structure, along with every other aspect of creation, shows the pernicious effects of the Fall and of God's judgment."

This has definitely given me much to think/ talk about. Until reading this, I've always just assumed that it was totally a choice and that it is the only Biblical option. I am so relieved in a sense to read all of your posts and think about it in this way. In a sense, I think I am now more able to serve and help those who struggle with homosexuality than I ever have been before just by this simple distinction.


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