# Prayer and Non-Christians



## Romans922 (Mar 15, 2007)

Does God hear the prayers of non-christians?

More specifically: If prayers of non-christians are directed to the God of the Bible are they heard and/or answered?

If prayers of non-christians are directed to a random god are they heard and/or answerd by God of Scripture?


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## Herald (Mar 16, 2007)

[bible]Acts 10:1-4[/bible]

I love the story of Cornelius. There is speculation on whether Cornelius was regenerate at this point or not. I believe that God can use the prayers of the ungodly for His purposes, although God is not constrained to do so.


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## satz (Mar 16, 2007)

Bill,

I have always thought that Cornelius was definitely regenerate by the time we meet him in the book of Acts.

I think Cornelius simply shows too much for us to say he might not have been regenerate. He was devout and feared God, but the bible tells us the unregenerate not only do not fear God but cannot even see his Kingdom. We also learn that his prayers have 'ascended as a memorial before God' and while I would not argue with the fact that God can use the prayers of the unregenerate, I do not believe he 'accepts' them in that sense while they remain unregenerate.

As for if God hears the prayers of the unregenerate, off the cuff I would say he has no obligation to, nor would be normally do so. Thats not to say he can't make exceptions according to his own secret will, but I do not think it would be normative.


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## Romans922 (Mar 16, 2007)

I don't think it can be proven either way if Cornelius was a Christian or not, we are not God, the Bible does not say so, and we can't speculate.


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## satz (Mar 16, 2007)

trevorjohnson said:


> If God does not hear the prayers of non-Christians, then what good is it to pray for one's own salvation?



Trevor,

I guess it depends on what you mean by 'non-christians'. I do not believe God normatively hears the prayers of those not yet born again. Before we are born again we are not even capable of offering a sincere prayer to God. The new or spiritual birth is a sovereign act of God that he performs at his own timing for each of his elect. The sinner's response is not involved in any way at all. Hence there is no need for even capacity for them to pray for their salvation in this sense.

After being born again, though, there is another sense of salvation in which the born again person believes the gospel and realizes what God has done for him or her. If we use non-christian in this sense, then yes God hears the prayers of his born again children. I think Cornelius is such an example. God heard his prayers and sent him Peter to bring the gospel to him.


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## satz (Mar 16, 2007)

Romans922 said:


> I don't think it can be proven either way if Cornelius was a Christian or not, we are not God, the Bible does not say so, and we can't speculate.



I would humbly submit that it is not speculation. The bible does not tell us outright Cornelius’ spiritual status, but I believe it gives us enough information to tell.

1. Even before meeting Peter Cornelius feared God (Acts 10:2), but natural men do not fear God (Rom 3:18, Ps 14:1, Ps 36:1). Fear of God is an evidence of salvation (Ps 25:14, Ps 85:9, Ps 103:17, Ps 147:11, Luke 1:50).

2. Cornelius was a devout man (Acts 10:2) before meeting Peter. From the remainder of the description of him in Acts 10 we know the Holy Spirit means ‘devout’ in a true and meaningful sense. But natural men cannot even see the kingdom of God (John 3:3) and have no interest in it (Ps 14:2-3, Ps 53:2-3)

3. Cornelius’ prayers and alms giving (Acts 10:2) were accepted by God (10:4, 31).
But God would not accept the prayers or offerings of a wicked man (Prov 15:8,29 Prov 21:4,27) nor will he regard him (1 Peter 3:12, Ps 34:16).

4. Note also Peter’s words upon first meeting Cornelius (Acts 10:34-35). Was he telling Cornelius to work righteousness to become acceptable to God? Or was he observing that he could tell Cornelius was already accepted with God by the fact that he was already working righteousness and fearing him?


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## BobVigneault (Mar 16, 2007)

> John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”




God hears every word of HIS sheep, HIS flock, HIS elect.

The question is, will he hear the word of the reprobate. The reprobate will not address God, God is dead to him. In the world to come the reprobate will pray and protest and God will say, "I never knew you".


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## Puritan Sailor (Mar 16, 2007)

BobVigneault said:


> God hears every word of HIS sheep, HIS flock, HIS elect.
> 
> The question is, will he hear the word of the reprobate. The reprobate will not address God, God is dead to him. In the world to come the reprobate will pray and protest and God will say, "I never knew you".



 

Prayers cannot be heard without a Mediator.


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## BobVigneault (Mar 16, 2007)

trevorjohnson said:


> Bob;
> 
> So does God hear the prayers of his Elect, before they are saved?
> 
> And if not, how then can they truly pray for true faith and true repentance?



Yes, without a doubt. Maybe we should define what we mean by 'prayer'.
There is definitely an expiration and inspiration going on in the elect as God 'causes all things to work together for those who love him and are called according to his purpose'. The doubts, the rebellious outbursts will all be used in building the saint. One day the saint will think back on his 'prayers of discontent' and realize the sovereignty and mercy of God as God dealt with him back then.

I would disagree with the premise of your second question. We do not pray for faith and repentance. Faith is granted to us and then through the channel of faith repentance is granted to us. Our prayer of repentance is a working out and acknowlegement of the repentance already worked in us. The same applies to faithfulness.


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## staythecourse (Mar 16, 2007)

*God will not hear the non-believer's prayer.*

To add to the above statements by Mark, This Scripture came immediately to mind:

145:16 "Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing."

So all these living things have desires God is aware of which he grants from his generous hand yet these are not prayers, only desires. I mis-remembered the passage and thought it spoke of prayers thinking a non-God knower would a: call on him and b: ask for the right thing - a thing in accordance with his will.

Then I read further:

145:19 "He will fulfil the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them."

So my conclusion would be that a saving work of the Spirit would necessitate a call and a call that was in line with his will.


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## BobVigneault (Mar 16, 2007)

> Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.




Who prayed, you or the Spirit?
Which prayer was effective? Yours or the Spirit's?




trevorjohnson said:


> I prayed for true faith and true repentance!
> 
> 
> I know many others who also pray for true faith and true repentance and then afterwards report that they have come to saving faith. Their lives reflect the same.
> ...


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## staythecourse (Mar 16, 2007)

*I think you know the answer will be "yes"*

There is a oneness in my request and God's will. That is not flakey talk, it means that my will has been conformed to God's in a matter by the work of the Spirit so that God (the Father) may now grant the prayer. Unless I am changed, I will not ask for the right things.


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## BobVigneault (Mar 16, 2007)

trevorjohnson said:


> If God does not hear the prayers of non-Christians, then what good is it to pray for one's own salvation?



Maybe we need to go back to this question. We cannot pray for our own salvation. This stands the ordo salutis on it's head. Regeneration must take place before the person is able to recognize his sins and cry out for mercy. The cry for mercy is the prayer that God hears.


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## satz (Mar 16, 2007)

I agree with Bob…

I also think it is necessary to realize that the word ‘saved’ can be used in many different senses in the bible.



> 2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,



Paul taught that he was already saved before the world began.



> 1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.



He also taught that he was saved when Jesus Christ came into the world.



> Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;



Yet he also taught he was saved when the Holy Spirit regenerated him. 



> 1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.



And he taught that he and Timothy would only be saved if they were diligent in their lives and doctrine.



> Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.



But when he wrote to the saints at Rome (rom 1:7), he told them they and he were not yet saved, but were going to be saved at a soon approaching time in the future.


So when we ask can we pray for salvation we need to clarify what type of salvation we mean, because the bible uses the word to represent different senses of God’s overall plan to save his people.

I believe prayer is only involved in the fourth ‘type’ of salvation I listed above, namely conversion by the gospel and the holy life that ought to follow after it. If someone truly prays to God for salvation and repentance, that person must already have been born again or regenerated. What that person needs now is the gospel to tell him how to live for the Lord who saved him. And that is the kind of prayer for salvation from a ‘non-christian’ God will answer. I know many here will disagree with me that there is (or can sometimes be) a time gap between regeneration and conversion. I think, though, that Cornelius is a perfect example. He was already born again and he knew the God of Israel was the true God and ought to be worshipped so he was doing his best by praying and giving alms to the poor. But he had no idea that God had sent a savior into the world to deal with his sins. He must have been grieved in his conscience for them, that’s why he was praying all the time, and why he was so eager to hear what Peter had to say to him. So his prayers were answered by God sending Peter to him to tell him of the gospel and about Jesus Christ and the forgiveness of sins and how Cornelius ought to live afterward.


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## ajrock2000 (Mar 16, 2007)

BobVigneault said:


> Maybe we need to go back to this question. We cannot pray for our own salvation. This stands the ordo salutis on it's head. Regeneration must take place before the person is able to recognize his sins and cry out for mercy. The cry for mercy is the prayer that God hears.



 

I can attest to this myself so much in my own life. I prayed countless times in my life for salvation through "sinners prayers", and little cheap things, I even prayed before I went to bed for most of my life, but there was no regeneration and recognition of sinfulness before God. These prayers were worthless and in vain. It was only in God's time and purpose, through regeneration, that led me to realize what I am, and then to my knees crying out to Him for mercy. I don't think for a second that it was because of my crying out that God saved me. He did something to me before that, that caused me to do it, because there is no way I would have done any of this apart from divine intervention.


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## ajrock2000 (Mar 16, 2007)

I agree with you, Trevor. I am not claiming I know the exact order of the salvation of men, nor do I intend to. I think a lot of this kind of talk comes from our finite minds thinking that our prayers change God's will, which we know they don't. At the same time, we are to pray, mourn, and cry to God for everything, and it will be done according to His perfect, good will. 



> Too, slightly unrelated: When heathens pray for health to be restored to family members and others things, can and will God sometimes grant positive answers to these prayers?



I can honestly say, I have no idea. I don't believe at all that it is specifically their prayer that makes God act, but it is just His pleasure to heal that certain person who was prayed for. Could it be a act of judgment by God healing that person making the heathen think God is with him and answering his prayers?


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## satz (Mar 16, 2007)

Trevor, 

I am genuinely interested in discussing this, although I don’t know if it is getting off topic. I hope some of the things I post do not come across as arrogant in the sense that I am trying to be a ‘teacher.’ However, these are the things I believe from the bible and I am interested in other’s opinions or corrections.

To lay my cards on the table, no I do not believe in any preparatory work of the Spirit that precedes *regeneration*. I believe God’s creative power creates a new creature within the elect person in the same way he once created light at the beginning of the world. So yes, I do believe God ‘zaps’ a sinner and regenerates him or her in an instant. That is not to say God *saves* a sinner just by ‘zapping’ them. But that particular phase in salvation that we call regeneration I believe to be instantaneous and completely monogistic. 

So yes, I disagree with the idea that there is a phrase of ‘seeking’ that comes in between being dead in trespasses and sins and being born again. 

If you are willing, could you show what verses support the idea of such an ‘in between’ phase? (I hope I am understanding the idea properly)


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## LifeInReturn (Mar 17, 2007)

What about common grace ? Wouldn't that tie into this ?


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## Romans922 (Mar 17, 2007)

Specifically what I was asking was:

Does God hear/answer/listen to non-Christians who pray to Him or to some other god (who they merely call 'God') [These non-Christians at the time are not regenerate and at the time not coming to Him. They are praying for example for God to deliver people from the horrible 9/11 attack or Hurricane Katrina, or people who actually pray for other people (yet still remain non-christian).


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## satz (Mar 18, 2007)

Trevor,

I’ve been pretty busy of late, so I only had time to read the articles quickly. Unfortunately I have to say I am still not convinced. It seems (to me) that there is a mix between regeneration and conversion. Some of the things they urge seekers to do are part of conversion, not a precursor to regeneration. And some of the activities involved in seeking are simply, in my opinion, not possible for anyone except a regenerate individual. An unregenerate would never, ever want to do any of those things nor could he ever do them sincerely. 

In addition I am somewhat uncomfortable with the idea put forward that not all ‘seekers’ will be saved. God does not owe anyone salvation, but he has promised that all those who believe (sincerely) in the Lord Jesus will be saved. The idea that someone ought to seek the Lord but he might or might not be saved despite his best efforts is, from what I see so far, not present in scripture. 

That said I will try to re-read the articles again when I have more time (after Thursday probably).

I am interested in how you believe this doctrine would affect evangelism. regardless of who is right on this, we are still called to preach the gospel and proclaim the truth. If people respond and believe, we are to disciple them. If people do not believe per se, but show interest, we should encourage them to learn more and keep telling them the truth. Lets assume I am right. How would that affect evangelism? Do you think the effect would be negative? I am aware the view I am espousing might be more open to abuse or misuse. But that doesn’t make it wrong.


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## Greg (Mar 18, 2007)

BobVigneault said:


> Maybe we need to go back to this question. We cannot pray for our own salvation. This stands the ordo salutis on it's head. Regeneration must take place before the person is able to recognize his sins and cry out for mercy. The cry for mercy is the prayer that God hears.



Don't mind me jumping in here. I have to agree with Bob, for I believe this is what Scripture plainly teaches. The heart and mind of unregenerate man does _not_ seek God (Rm. 3:10-12), for unregenerate man does not even _desire_ God (Rm 8:7-8).

When we see a person _truly_ seeking the one and true God of Scripture, then this is simply evidence that that person who was once dead in his sin has now been sovereignly made alive by the Spirit via regeneration (Eph. 2:1-10, John 3:8). He now has a new heart, a new disposition, new affections...he is a new creature. If this wasn't so, then he wouldn't have been genuinely seeking God.

When we see a person seeking after (a?) G(g)od, this is evidence of one of two possibilities: either that person has been regenerated by the Spirit, or that person is seeking after his own god (idolatry), which is what we do by nature as unregenerate sinners. 

God grants a person faith and repentance, not in response to the unregenerate heart seeking after it, for Scripture is clear that this isn't the case. But rather God grants faith and repentance of His own sovereign choice. 

If God was waiting for the unregenerate children of man to ask first, then none would be saved, for none want or desire God, the things of God are utter foolishness to the heart and mind of sinful man. He won't come to God on God's terms, rather he wants a god that fits the bill of his own sinful desires.

I know of no place in Scripture that teaches of an intermediary position between being regenerate and unregenerate in regards to the hearts and minds of sinful man...either one is _fully_ dead, or he is _fully_ alive. 

Now the newly regenerate heart probably will not understand the operations of the Spirit as a new babe in Christ, specifically Who did what and when first. But nonetheless Scripture is plain as to why a person seeks after and comes to Christ in the first place.


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## Greg (Mar 18, 2007)

Romans922 said:


> Specifically what I was asking was:
> 
> Does God hear/answer/listen to non-Christians who pray to Him or to some other god (who they merely call 'God') [These non-Christians at the time are not regenerate and at the time not coming to Him. They are praying for example for God to deliver people from the horrible 9/11 attack or Hurricane Katrina, or people who actually pray for other people (yet still remain non-christian).



Does God respond to and answer the prayers of those who are praying to a false god? If He did, wouldn't He, in a very real sense, be advocating the violation of His own 1st commandment?

Again, just because a person is "praying" to a god doesn't necessarily mean that person is seeking God. On the contrary, it is evidence that that person is fleeing from God. By nature we are, as I've heard accurately said before "idol factories". We want to make God into _our_ own image. This is an affront to God, thus I do not believe that He responds to those prayers. 

Now I do believe that God does providentially use any and all types of circumstances, such as the ones you mentioned above, to sovereignly call His elect. 

"The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD,
but the prayer of the upright is acceptable to him." -Proverbs 15:8

"The LORD is far from the wicked,
but he hears the prayer of the righteous." -Proverbs 15:29

"If one turns away his ear from hearing the law,
even his prayer is an abomination." -Proverbs 28:9


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## satz (Mar 19, 2007)

Trevor,

Firstly, forgive me if I present any strawmen here...

How would you respond to the assertion that the doctrine of seeking seems to introduce an element of uncertainty into presentations of the gospel that is not present in the biblical descriptions?

I am thinking of the idea that all sinners are commanded to seek, yet seeking is no guarantee of salvation. But the bible never seems to present the gospel that way. It never says seek after Jesus and he may save you. It says believe on him and you will be saved.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

The idea of seeking seems say that someone can be burdened for their sin, seek salvation, yet they might not be saved. But Jesus in John 6:37 says "him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." Yes, the idea is there that it implies those who come to him sincerely, but aren't seekers supposed to be seeking sincerely, or at least as sincerely as they can?

It seems to me, the apostles never presented to anyone the idea of seek after God and maybe you will be saved. They told them believe in the gospel and you _will_ be saved. They knew only a elect regenerate person would believe, so they could confidently make that promise.

We then need works to prove to ourselves that our believe was sincere, but that is part of conversion and living the christian life and comes long after regeneration...


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## Greg (Mar 19, 2007)

trevorjohnson said:


> So yall think Jonathan Edwards and John Gerstner were wrong in their doctrine of seeking?



The question would be _what_ is one seeking and _why_? The condition of one's heart, being either regenerate or unregenerate, will answer both of those questions.

Scripture tells us _unequivocally_ that "none seek God"...this is a universal negative. There is no exception to this biblical truth...except those whom the Spirit has regenerated. Once given a new heart and a new spirit, what they once despised they now seek, they now cherish. They now see the beauty of Christ to which they were once blind to. Now they are ready to embrace the truth of the gospel with faith and repentance. 




> ...*Meanwhile, the wise minister, seeing that the fallow ground is now ploughed up, urges the sinner to turn to Christ. This is the right advice to give to a man who has shown that with all his heart he desires to be saved from sin; for when a man wants to be saved from sin, then it is possible for him genuinely and sincerely to receive the One who presents Himself to man as the Saviour from sin*...



Again, the question would be _why_ does one who was once formerly an avowed enemy of God, hating all that He is, despising the salvation that comes from His hand, now desire it?

This is plainly evidence of a _new creation_...evidence of the sovereign _regenerating_ work of the Holy Spirit. The fallow ground referred to by Packer is the heart that was once dead in sin now made alive by the Spirit. And now that the heart is alive, it can now willingly receive that which it once rejected, and that in the faith and repentance granted by God through the gift of regeneration.


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## Greg (Mar 19, 2007)

Hi Trevor,

Thanks for responding. I admit that I might be missing something here brother, but where do you get the pre-regenerational awakening work of the Holy Spirit from? 

And two more questions if you'll permit me:

1) Does every person who receives the pre-regenerational awakening of the Spirit inevitably become a child of God?

2) If not, what is the ultimate difference between the one who becomes saved and the one who rejects the call? In other words,, why did the one receive the call while the other ejected it if both received the same pre-regenerational awakening?

Thanks. I'm just trying not to misunderstand what you're saying.


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## satz (Mar 20, 2007)

Trevor,

I would appreciate your opinion on my question in post #30, if you have time.

thanks...


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## satz (Mar 20, 2007)

Trevor,

Thanks for your reply. I will probably refrain from responding until I have had more time to consider the matter and read the articles. Your effort in explaining your position is certainly appreciated.

Thanks again...

Mark


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## Greg (Mar 20, 2007)

Likewise, I'll also check out the articles that you've posted. Thanks Trevor.


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