# PB on the Sabbath?



## AThornquist (Feb 8, 2010)

How is the non-necessity of the Puritan Board acceptable on a Sabbath when watching a football game isn't? People must work and provide the means for electricity, internet access, etc. for our PB access and thus work for this means of enjoyment. This appears inconsistent to me but I would happily be corrected if someone is willing.


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## nasa30 (Feb 8, 2010)

*The Sabbath, internet and the PB*

This is a spin off on a legitimate question that happened to be in a thread that took the legalism path and derailed. (NOTE: Please do not try to bring a legalism argument to this thread or it will be shut down as well) 

The question for this thread is not to stir up anything, but to answer a question that a number of folks in the other thread wanted to understand, myself included. This was the question from another PB member. ( name omitted for safety of PB brother)



> > Okay, I can already anticipate some of the backlash, but I ask this in all sincerity: I am one still working through what is/isn't permissable on the Lord's day. I can understand the reasoning behind not watching trivial sports/entertainment on the sabbath, but how does getting on the internet to complain about said watching of sports on the Lord's day honor God? I imagine some will argue that logging onto the Puritanboard on Sundays constitutes Christian fellowship, but then what of the argument that watching the ballgame with brothers and sisters in Christ is Christian fellowship?
> >
> >
> > This Sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest, all the day, from their own works, words, and thoughts about their worldly employments and recreations, but also are taken up, the whole time, in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy. - WCF 21:8
> ...


 
This was one Sabbatarian response- This I understand because it will not include the internet, facebook, PB etc. 


> I think you do bring up a valid point. I hold to the original WCF and am a Sabbatarian. I believe in setting apart and observing the Lord's Day, and that includes setting it apart from all recreation and entertainment. I'm sure there will be other people on here, that can give their reasons. But, personally, for the last couple of months this is something that has really been convicting me. I know in the past, I just followed the typical arguments....that you can do edifying things online such as listen to sermons or read things that would encourage spiritually etc. But, the more I think about this, the more I believe it is important to find that edification within the immediate body of Christ (namely your church) and spend time fellowshipping and learning with them. I know for me, personally, the Puritan Board can be encouraging and edifying but at the end of the day, it is more entertainment and recreation than anything else. I say this, because I could be doing other things that are more profitable such as reading Scripture, praying, reading spiritual books, encouraging those within my church etc. And I would rather spend the Lord's Day with His people, rather than waste precious time online. I'm online almost every single day, and although I do try to spend that time productively, it is still something that I do daily and is really unnecessary to do on the Lord's Day. And the Lord's Day is not just the time we spend at church, but is the entire day. I cannot speak for others on the Board, but I can tell you that this is something that has been convicting me, and I've decided to refrain from using the internet at all on the Lord's Day, unless there is a genuine need.


 
What about Sabbatarians that do post on facebook and the PB? How does that work?


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## Scott1 (Feb 8, 2010)

You will get some good answers here.

Recreation and the seeking of it, such as watching, playing or talking about football as a focus of the day is not the same thing as discussing God's Word and God's ways.

Granted, not every post or question is strictly on that, but engaging in a discussion on-line about obeying the fourth commandment of God can be both a useful and necessary incident of keeping the sabbath.

So, the heart of the fourth commandment is to "cease" from our ordinary labors and seeking entertainment and "set apart" all the day to prioritize the worship of God, in thought, word and deed. Talking about and discussing biblical topics seems to fit within that.


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## AThornquist (Feb 8, 2010)

Scott1 said:


> You will get some good answers here.
> 
> Recreation and the seeking of it, such as watching, playing or talking about football as a focus of the day is not the same thing as discussing God's Word and God's ways.
> 
> ...




So is it our focus that is most important then? There are many times when I read through the PB for a sort of sanctified entertainment, whereas times like yesterday the Super Bowl was on and we had great fellowship and discussions, mostly not about the game itself. That would make the Super Bowl more acceptable to have on the screen than the Puritan Board while it is the Sabbath, given my focus?


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## AThornquist (Feb 8, 2010)

We apparently cross-posted  This is an issue on several hearts and minds, it seems. PB on the Sabbath


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## Scott1 (Feb 8, 2010)

Granted, there are some "gray" areas because keeping the sabbath involves thoughts, words and deeds.

Ordinarily (using the word "ordinarily" because there are unusual circumstances that are necessity or mercy), the fourth command requires:

1) prepare in advance (to minimize ordinary distractions)
2) abstain from work
3) abstain from recreation/entertainment

So that the worship of God, individual, family and corporate may be prioritized all the day with exceptions for works of necessity and mercy.

Engaging someone to understand a spiritual truth does not seem to be prohibited, but rather encouraged. But using it as a way to focus on and discuss sports, for example would not because the substance is not valid for the focus of the sabbath.

You're right also, our minds wander, our motives are wrong. Part of the discipline developed, which the Westminster Larger Catechism summarizes the doctrine of scripture to say helps us keep ALL the other commandments better, is to learn to focus on God and set aside the things that will necessarily consume us on other days. (Remember, half of the fourth commandment is to work six days).


Westminster Larger Catechism



> Question 117: How is the sabbath or the Lord's day to be sanctified?
> 
> Answer: The sabbath or Lord's day is to be sanctified by an holy resting all the day, not only from such works as are at all times sinful, but even from such worldly employments and recreations as are on other days lawful; and making it our delight to spend the whole time (except so much of it as is to betaken up in works of necessity and mercy) in the public and private exercises of God's worship: and, to that end, we are to prepare our hearts, and with such foresight, diligence, and moderation, to dispose and seasonably dispatch our worldly business, that we may be the more free and fit for the duties of that day.
> 
> ...


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## nasa30 (Feb 8, 2010)

> AThornquist
> We apparently cross-posted  This is an issue on several hearts and minds, it seems. PB on the Sabbath ​


 
Haha! Yes we did. 

Yes, I would really like to understand the thinking on the difference. I *almost* get it if the only postings were on doctrine, but I also see the PB as more of the weekly activity as noted in this response 


> I know in the past, I just followed the typical arguments....that you can do edifying things online such as listen to sermons or read things that would encourage spiritually etc. But, the more I think about this, the more I believe it is important to find that edification within the immediate body of Christ (namely your church) and spend time fellowshipping and learning with them. I know for me, personally, the Puritan Board can be encouraging and edifying but at the end of the day, it is more entertainment and recreation than anything else. I say this, because I could be doing other things that are more profitable such as reading Scripture, praying, reading spiritual books, encouraging those within my church etc. And I would rather spend the Lord's Day with His people, rather than waste precious time online. I'm online almost every single day, and although I do try to spend that time productively, it is still something that I do daily and is really unnecessary to do on the Lord's Day. And the Lord's Day is not just the time we spend at church, but is the entire day.


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## nasa30 (Feb 8, 2010)

> Engaging someone to understand a spiritual truth does not seem to be prohibited, but rather encouraged. But using it as a way to focus on and discuss sports, for example would not because the substance is not valid for the focus of the sabbath


 
Ok, like I said in my identical thread to Andrews, I almost get it if the only postings were ONLY on Doctrine (which not all are) but I also see it as something that we do daily so shouldn't we not post to Facebook and the PB on the sabbath at all by that line of setting the day apart unlike the rest of the week?


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## NaphtaliPress (Feb 8, 2010)

A moderator closed the other superbowl thread for a cooling off. Let the moderators moderate please and determine when it is appropriate to re-engage the Sabbath issue. Thanks.


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## NaphtaliPress (Feb 8, 2010)

Two threads merged.


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## NaphtaliPress (Feb 9, 2010)

reopened.


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## Scott1 (Feb 9, 2010)

nasa30 said:


> > Engaging someone to understand a spiritual truth does not seem to be prohibited, but rather encouraged. But using it as a way to focus on and discuss sports, for example would not because the substance is not valid for the focus of the sabbath
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, like I said in my identical thread to Andrews, I almost get it if the only postings were ONLY on Doctrine (which not all are) but I also see it as something that we do daily so shouldn't we not post to Facebook and the PB on the sabbath at all by that line of setting the day apart unlike the rest of the week?


 
I see this thread has come through a lot of twists and turns, so please forgive me if I'm not addressing this based on past context.

It is a difficult thing in a context like this where spontaneous discussion can certainly wander at any time, but particularly on the sabbath where we are commanded to "cease" and "set apart." I'm thankful we have moderators who take this seriously, difficult and imperfect as observing this may be.

If I'm understanding some of the discussion that went on earlier on this topic, it might be helpful to understand that "fellowship" in and of itself is not a basis for keeping the fourth commandment. So, the fact that one may need and desire "fellowship" with Christians does not mean that they may think about, talk about (let alone play) football on the Lord's Day in the context of "fellowship" and obey the fourth commandment.

Sinners that we all are, we very easily rationalize our disobedience. 

And by virtue of the remnant of the fallen nature that is still in us, we are not in that at all willing to suffer any inconvenience in order to obey and please our God.

The "remembrance" part of the sabbath is quickly blotted out when the focus goes to the ordinary activities of recreation, entertainment, amusement that are fine on the other days- God generously gives time for them then but calls us to "break" that pattern, to "cease" and come apart from them toward Him in a way not possible the other days of the week.

While we cannot ever base scriptural truth on a practical basis, I can only observe that our neurotic preoccupation with work, money and entertaining ourselves every minute of every day is a reason there is so much distress in our generation. It can even affect one's health.

God calls explicitly, and by His example at Creation to break this pattern, one day in seven. He blesses those who do.

Let me also add, if I'm following the specific applications here, I don't think the technology itself (e.g. Facebook, Twitter, Puritan Board) automatically violates the fourth commandment, but it is their substance. If they are a means to understanding a passage of Scripture better, for example, they can be useful even on the Lord's Day. If they are a means to prideful argumentation about our rights to focus on entertaining ourselves around a super sporting event, they are not.

There certainly can be a lot of distractions on all these media, and wisdom must be applied, weaknesses understood and prayed for, but that does not in itself render them wrong.


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## TimV (Feb 9, 2010)

If gas and electricity are free, they you don't buy gas and electricity on the Sabbath. If you pay for gas and electricity, then if you use gas and electricity on the Sabbath you are engaging in in a commercial transaction.

It's not true that if gas and electricity are used in hospitals on the Sabbath, then all the gas and electricity go on anyway. So if you don't watch TV, fine! Follow your conscience. But don't bind mine if you do any cooking other than wtih fuel you've gathered during the working week, or switch on a light, an electric blanket or heat your house.


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## jfschultz (Feb 9, 2010)

Josh makes a good point in that the internet involves using infrastructures that are there because they are needed to support works of necessity and mercy. On the other hand broadcast and cable entertainment require people to be working (yes, present tense!) and there is no pretext of it being a work of necessity or mercy.


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## TimV (Feb 9, 2010)

> No. You don't purchase those things on the Lord's Day. The Israelites didn't gather the manna they ate on the Lord's Day. They worked and gathered it on the other days. But did that mean they couldn't eat it on the sabbath, since they had worked to get it on the other days? No.



Yes, you do. That's what meters are for, and most people here have them. And we're not talking about mana, we're talking about gathering fuel.

(Numbers 15:32) - "Now while the sons of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering wood on the sabbath day. 33And those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation; 34and they put him in custody because it had not been declared what should be done to him. 35Then the Lord said to Moses, "The man shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." 36So all the congregation brought him outside the camp, and stoned him to death with stones, just as the Lord had commanded Moses."

I can pick an apple on Saturday and eat it Sunday. I'm not buying anything. I can heat my house with a stove with wood I cut up on Saturday, and burn it on Sunday. That's how I lived for 2 years in Calaveras County. But Josh, you are buying electricity and gas if you use them on Sunday, and you're buying them on Sunday. Batteries were what we used in New Guinea, and everyone here can do the same. It just costs more money than people want to spend, so for pragmatic reasons of cost, most of us purposely choose to buy "sticks" on the Sabbath.

I would be interested in hearing about church disciplinary actions anyone knows about in NAPARC churches dealing with Sabbath breaking. I'm sure there have been some, and discussing those cases as they relate to the Standards would be instructive.


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## TimV (Feb 9, 2010)

Would your gas and electric bill be the same if you didn't use either on Sunday? ;-)


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## TimV (Feb 9, 2010)

> No, *they'd most likely be more*, due to the energy starting them back up. However, that's irrelevant. The "grid" is "always on," and there are professions of necessity and mercy that require this "always on" flow. There's no "extra work" in turning on the whole grid. It's primarily automated.



Josh, if YOU, *personally*, did not use gas and electricity on Sundays, would your bill be more, less or the same.


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## TimV (Feb 9, 2010)

Would anyone else here care to take a stab at this? If you don't use gas or electricity every Sunday will the bills be more, less or the same.


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## nasa30 (Feb 9, 2010)

Since it looks like this thread is going to be shut down soon, I wanted to Thank Scott and Josh for their perspective on the OP question. I am not sure I see it the same way but I wanted to understand the viewpoint.
This from Scott was very helpful.


> Let me also add, if I'm following the specific applications here, I don't think the technology itself (e.g. Facebook, Twitter, Puritan Board) automatically violates the fourth commandment, but it is their substance. If they are a means to understanding a passage of Scripture better, for example, they can be useful even on the Lord's Day. If they are a means to prideful argumentation about our rights to focus on entertaining ourselves around a super sporting event, they are not.


 It was actually the use of PB to make a point (on Sunday) about how wrong others were to watch the SB that got me as prideful and contradicting of the view of the sabbath. 

I am not a sabbatarian but I find myself leaning that direction and things like using the PB for stuff like that (or at all since we can do this 6 other days of the week) seems hypocritical and that makes me re-think my leaning.


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## Andres (Feb 9, 2010)

nasa30 said:


> Since it looks like this thread is going to be shut down soon, I wanted to Thank Scott and Josh for their perspective on the OP question. I am not sure I see it the same way but I wanted to understand the viewpoint.
> This from Scott was very helpful.
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Judson nails it. I was the one who brought up the original question in this thread. It had nothing to do with being on the PuritanBoard, being on the internet, or using electricity. This thread in question was specifically devoted to bashing the watching of the Super Bowl. I actually have no problem with that, except that it was done on the Sabbath! As I mentioned in the original question, I am trying my best to learn how to properly honor God on Sundays and I would probably agree that the Super Bowl should be skipped. However, what doesn't make sense to me is how watching the game on the Sabbath is wrong, but making and participating in a thread about the game is okay. I thought it was completely ironic that the time of the thread shows 5:36, which is right when the game started! I will just be honest here, but I thought the thread came off very self-righteous and hypocritical. Of course, that is how the thread came off to me, so that is why I sincerely asked the question, hoping someone would shed some light on the subject. I mean come on, you cannot honestly tell me that talking about football in a negative light, is still not ultimately talking about football. If I am wrong, then I welcome any correction, but when I read the thread Monday morning, I failed to see how it aligned with the WCF which states, 


> VIII. This Sabbath is to be kept holy unto the Lord when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all the day from their own works, words, and thoughts about their wordly employments and recreations, but also are taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of His worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.


I don't doubt for a minute that almost every saint here on PB loves God completely and desires to bring Him glory by delighting in His commandments, however I wonder if sometimes we aren't pointing out specks in others eyes, when we have logs in ours (myself included).


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## AThornquist (Feb 9, 2010)

TimV said:


> Would anyone else here care to take a stab at this? If you don't use gas or electricity every Sunday will the bills be more, less or the same.


 
I dunno, perfessor. Less? And even if you personally didn't pay for it, such as in a situation where utilities are a set price with rent or something, you are causing _other_ people to pay for it, which likewise results in a commercial interaction.





nasa30 said:


> It was actually the use of PB to make a point (on Sunday) about how wrong others were to watch the SB that got me as prideful and contradicting of the view of the sabbath.



Me too. The apparent hypocrisy was frustrating, though a better response on my part would have been much more fitting.

Edit - Meh. Andres summed it up nicely.


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## Andres (Feb 9, 2010)

Joshua, thank you for your well-thought out reply. I can say that in my endeavor to grow in my understanding of the 4th commandment, I doubt anyone here has been more beneficial than yourself. 



Joshua said:


> > I mean come on, you cannot honestly tell me that talking about football in a negative light, is still not ultimately talking about football.
> 
> 
> This is where, In my humble opinion, the misunderstanding lies. The subject is proper sabbath keeping, and football the example.



I agree that here is where the misunderstanding lies, because I saw the thread as talk of football, when in reality it was discussion of the sabbath. I apologize then for my hasty judgments and erroneous accusations. I am a most wretched man and I think that my struggle with doing what is right in the eyes of the Lord shall never cease until I can see my glorious King face to face.


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## Wayne (Feb 9, 2010)

Good points, that a lot of activity on the Board on the Lord's day is unnecessary and does not reflect on the worship of the Lord.
If each of us would keep that in mind, the moderators would themselves be better able to enjoy that day.

"Do I really need to post this thread, or reply to this thread today?" "Can it wait?"


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## Mushroom (Feb 9, 2010)

Membership in this board is voluntary, and it is not an authoritative organization that has the ability to bind anyone's conscience. The owners and admins of this board have a particular, confessional view of the Sabbath that the rules reflect, and teaching or arguing against that view is prohibited. Why is this so complicated? Some may disagree with that view, and that has not prevented any from being accepted as a member, but we all agreed to the rules when we joined. There is no reason to take offense or feel put upon if you take a different view, you just have to realize that your view is not that of the board and won't be permitted to be taught or defended.

I have friends and family that view a lot of things that I do that they don't to somehow be an affront or holier-than-thou, such as praying before a meal. They shouldn't feel that what I do is against them, but they also shouldn't expect that I'm going to change that just because they're at my house. I think some we need to have that same kind of respect for the PB rules/standards when participating here if there is an area where we disagree with them. It is pointless and non-productive otherwise.

If your conscience tells you to refrain from PB on the Sabbath, then by all means do so.


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## VictorBravo (Feb 9, 2010)

Wayne said:


> Good points, that a lot of activity on the Board on the Lord's day is unnecessary and does not reflect on the worship of the Lord.
> If each of us would keep that in mind, the moderators would themselves be better able to enjoy that day.
> 
> "Do I really need to post this thread, or reply to this thread today?" "Can it wait?"


 
Thanks, Wayne. That summarized my personal view too.

Before I became a moderator here, I actually rarely even turned on the computer on the Lord's Day. It wasn't a legalism thing at all.

Rather, the computer, for me, was a portal to all the world and all its distractions. I didn't think it was evil or that there needed to be a rule about it. Instead, it was more like the background noise of a wall of blaring TVs you might find at one of the big box megastores. It was something I wanted rest from.

Similarly, many times, when I am among the saints on the Lord's Day someone wants to talk politics or law. I try to be gracious and gentle and say, "not today." I don't impute sin on their part, but remind them that I have limits put there by my own conscience--and, selfishly, for my own relief.

This is a round about way of saying that not everyone who takes a high view of the Lord's Day is trying to bind someone else. I think it is more along the lines of wanting to show the joy of peace and rest that they occasionally experience.


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## nasa30 (Feb 9, 2010)

While I agree with some of your points Josh, in the fairness of understanding what we are talking about, here was the original post in the coffee shop (not in a Christian walk or Law of God forum)


> I refuse to spend a precious evening sitting in front of the TV watching football. Am I the only one out there?
> 
> By the way, this is not a condemnation on those who watch it, I just can't bring myself to join in all the hype. (Let's not even mention the fact that it's on Sunday.)


 
Not breaking the sabbath was a throw in point put in (). Not the main topic of the post. If this was supposed to be a conversation about the 4th commandment, it sure did not look like one. Most of the posts on the sabbath were how folks were not watching and don't like football anyway. 



> Should we cease from talking about God's Law on the Lord's Day? May it never be so. I could understand your question if the thread was a _promotion_ of the Super Bowl. However, it was about the 4th Commandment, or the propriety of watching such on the Lord's Day, which would be a discussion on proper application of the 4th Commandment


 
I appreciate the clarification of your intent, I am just saying that it sure did not look like a doctrine discussion of the law of God.

I also want to point out to all that posted that I am not casting any stones in your direction either, I don't know your view of the sabbath and do not hold you to any point. I just think it was crazy to try to make the point of that thread the 4th commandment.


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## VictorBravo (Feb 9, 2010)

nasa30 said:


> While I agree with some of your points Josh, in the fairness of understanding what we are talking about, here was the original post in the coffee shop (not in a Christian walk or Law of God forum)
> 
> 
> > I refuse to spend a precious evening sitting in front of the TV watching football. Am I the only one out there?
> ...


 
Judson, I think the primary complaint (at least I take it that way) is that the thread should have been moderated for a different day. I thought so at the time I saw it, but had to leave it, so it didn't get done. Chalk it up to a botch on my part. 

Moderation

Everyone: please do not discuss the original thread anymore here. That thread was closed for a reason, even if belated. Carry on with the topic of this thead.


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## nasa30 (Feb 9, 2010)

I also wanted to point out that, for me, I do not feel that anyone is wanting to bind my conscience. I was asking the questions because I had.......questions. I wanted to better understand a position that I do not currently hold. That is all. I did not feel threated in any way. 

I also was not trying to make anything complicated. 



> Membership in this board is voluntary, and it is not an authoritative organization that has the ability to bind anyone's conscience. The owners and admins of this board have a particular, confessional view of the Sabbath that the rules reflect, and teaching or arguing against that view is prohibited. Why is this so complicated?


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## Ne Oublie (Feb 9, 2010)

Joshua said:


> For the sabbatarian what the Lord's Day is _not_ centered around, nor should it consist of is:1. Doing our own pleasure (i.e. things that are lawful on other days - recreation, sports, yada yada yada)
> 2. Doing our own ways
> 3. Finding our own pleasure (instead, taking up the necessary and commanded duties for the Lord's Day, which will easily fill it and keep us from straying)
> 4. Speaking our own words (instead, taking up the non stated worship times in godly conversation)​To call or event hint that the above 4 principles _legalism_ is to call the Scripture's prohibitions legalistic. To engage in causing others _unnecessary work_ on the Lord's Day is not keeping the sabbath holy (set apart, different from the other 6 days, etc.).



.......*Very fun Confessional Sabbatarian person here!*.........

I think I may be reading the above wrong....

In the list of 4 things that mentioned in the quote above, aren't these things prohibited every day of the week?
For instance, being in the Spirit of Christ I would be putting others before myself, doing and saying what God desires in his commandments.


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## TimV (Feb 9, 2010)

> "If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day, if you call the Sabbath a delight and the LORD's holy day honorable, and if you honor it by not going your own way and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,


Isa 58:13

Robert, given the context, I'd say Josh has it right.


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## VictorBravo (Feb 9, 2010)

Ne Oublie said:


> Joshua said:
> 
> 
> > For the sabbatarian what the Lord's Day is _not_ centered around, nor should it consist of is:1. Doing our own pleasure (i.e. things that are lawful on other days - recreation, sports, yada yada yada)
> ...



Not necessarily prohibited. Many places in Scripture acknowledge and commend pleasure in fruits of labor, recreation, etc. One example:



> Ecc. 5:18 Behold that which I have seen: it is good and comely for one to eat and to drink, and to enjoy the good of all his labour that he taketh under the sun all the days of his life, which God giveth him: for it is his portion.


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## Ne Oublie (Feb 9, 2010)

Joshua said:


> Ne Oublie said:
> 
> 
> > Joshua said:
> ...


 
Thank you for the clarification. The main subjects in your 4 points(minus the ie's and the parenthesis) made me think too far and I needed to keep near.

That being said, I praise God for the new heart that He creates that loves, enjoys and glorifies Him, that delights in his Law and walketh not astray!

I totally appreciate the moderators of this board, good examples in so many ways and I am willing to bet that some may be kin to Stonewall Jackson!


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## py3ak (Feb 9, 2010)

TimV said:


> I can pick an apple on Saturday and eat it Sunday.



You can pick and eat an apple on Sunday - from your neighbor's property, Luke 6:1.


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## matt01 (Feb 9, 2010)

Forgive me for not having read all of the other 41 posts. I don't have access to the Internet on the Lord's Day, so it isn't really an issue for me...I have thought in the past that it seemed a bit uneven in the application of the rules around the 4th Commandment and posting on the Lord's Day. Some threads are shut down, and others allowed to run free. But then some individual threads are stopped/moderated due to being too man-centered. It is hard to know what is acceptable. It would be nice to have a clear understanding of what would be allowed (as far as posting) on the Lord's Day, though this may have already been made clear somewhere that I haven't seen.


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## Prufrock (Feb 9, 2010)

[moderator]

Matt (et al), the problem with such a request is that we simply do not have any hard and fast rules about what we allow posted on the Sabbath, and what we do not. A few things to remember:

1.) A thread being closed on the Sabbath is not a "punishment," or a "you're doing something wrong," or any other such statement; it is simply a case-by-case decision by either one moderator or several. Yes -- it is subjective. It might be helpful to think of it like this: imagine you are talking with friends and church members after morning worship at a member's home; you are enjoying and being refreshed by the fellowship. At some point in the conversation, someone might kindly and humbly request that the topic be changed so as to be more conducive to the Sabbath day's activities. You might think that the topic is fine, but out of respect to the one requesting, I'm sure you will submit to their request and probably gladly return to more "spiritual" discussions (who wouldn't enjoy this on the Sabbath anyway?). Now, especially if that person making the request is the one in whose home the fellowship is taking place, all the more would you kindly submit to his perhaps subjective request. Think of the Puritanboard as "the house" of the administrators (with help from the moderators). If the owner would rather not have a certain conversation in his house on the Sabbath day, the freely invited guests should a.) kindly respect his request, and b.) not feel put out or rejected by the request.

2.) As Wayne alluded to earlier, it is a sign of respect to those who provide the services of the board to be circumspect when posting on the Sabbath: thus, even if there is a sort of conversation you would freely have in your own home on the Sabbath, since we all now know that the owners of the board have a certain understanding of the Sabbath and would rather not spend their Sabbath afternoon moderating threads; because of these things, we should all ask not just do *I* think this is appropriate for the Sabbath, but is this conversation how the *owners* of the board want it to be used on the Sabbath?

3.) Finally, though this is a dead horse, let's all remember that this board *is*, in fact, governed by the Westminster Standards and its understanding of the Sabbath day.

Blessings,
Paul
[/moderator]


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## Idelette (Feb 9, 2010)

VictorBravo said:


> Wayne said:
> 
> 
> > Good points, that a lot of activity on the Board on the Lord's day is unnecessary and does not reflect on the worship of the Lord.
> ...


 
 This is more along the lines of what I was speaking of. It's not that I was trying to bind anyone's conscience, and I truly hope that my post was not interpreted as such! For me, I would rather rest from all my daily activities that are truly not necessary. It's not that I have an aversion to technology .....in a certain sense those things are necessary and are conducive to worship. (i.e. having light in a sanctuary and heat during the winter etc.) 

But, personally, I find that we are so preoccupied with many things and are pulled in a dozen different directions daily. We have so many responsibilities and recreations around us at all times. And I often hear people tell me how they don't have time for prayer or they don't have time to read Scripture, etc. And my thought is, we do have the time!.....God has set apart a day for us to both rest from our daily labors as well as the noise of the world and to focus on Him exclusively! It is our joy and our delight, and should be the highlight of our week....the day that we most look forward to! I often think of how the Puritans spoke of the Sabbath as being a picture of Heaven and our eternal rest with Him. That when we meet as a congregation we get a glimpse of the throng in heaven worshipping and feasting with Him! And so, I would rather focus my Lord's Day on enjoying Him and meeting with His people rather than doing anything else! Not trying to bind anyone's conscience, just expressing my own convictions!


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## kvanlaan (Feb 9, 2010)

> It might be helpful to think of it like this: imagine you are talking with friends and church members after morning worship at a member's home; you are enjoying and being refreshed by the fellowship. At some point in the conversation, someone might kindly and humbly request that the topic be changed so as to be more conducive to the Sabbath day's activities. You might think that the topic is fine, but out of respect to the one requesting, I'm sure you will submit to their request and probably gladly return to more "spiritual" discussions (who wouldn't enjoy this on the Sabbath anyway?). Now, especially if that person making the request is the one in whose home the fellowship is taking place, all the more would you kindly submit to his perhaps subjective request. Think of the Puritanboard as "the house" of the administrators (with help from the moderators). If the owner would rather not have a certain conversation in his house on the Sabbath day, the freely invited guests should a.) kindly respect his request, and b.) not feel put out or rejected by the request.



Bang on. Thank you.

I always think of it thusly: If you fine folks all went to my church and I had you over for coffee, what would I feel is appropriate conversation during your visit? I would not talk business unless it was to help a brother out of a problem (ox out of a ditch) and I think that the moderation/decisions on which forums to close on the PB is just that. 

I don't mind if someone comes to me and says, 'Brother, it is the Sabbath; how does this conversation serve the Lord?' I am in a church that sends elders to my home to check on my family and their spiritual well-being; why would I disdain it on the PB when I am so thankful for it at home?


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## BlackCalvinist (Feb 10, 2010)

I'm going to have a convo with my pastor on this.


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## TimV (Feb 10, 2010)

> Deu 23:24 "If you go into your neighbor's vineyard, you may eat your fill of grapes, as many as you wish, but you shall not put any in your bag.
> Deu 23:25 If you go into your neighbor's standing grain, you may pluck the ears with your hand, but you shall not put a sickle to your neighbor's standing grain.



Ruben, the law, which Christ elaborated on to show it applied every day was for refreshment while traveling. There is no contradiction between that law and the law against harvesting manna on the Sabbath. My example was making provision for eating during the work week. I could eat an apple while walking to church, but not harvest, i.e. but them in a basket, and even if it were my own tree I couldn't harvest, i.e. pick for storing. The story in Luke deals with a different law than harvesting. And I'd still like to see who thinks they don't pay for cooking fuel on the Sabbath.


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## py3ak (Feb 10, 2010)

I didn't say there was a contradiction. You pointed out that you could pick an apple on Saturday - I pointed out that you could pick it on Sunday, too. Unless you disagree with that, I'm not sure what we're discussing.


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## Kevin (Feb 10, 2010)

I enjoyed the back-and-forth by Timv & josh on the gas & electricity issue.

And I think that it is one of the most important issues to determine our view of the Sabbath. Because if Tim is correct (& I am convinced that he is) then Every Single "strict" Sabbath keeper BREAKS THE SABBATH every week.

There is no way around it. "Using" is purchasing them. 

Would you say eating in a resturant *if you payed with a gift card* was OK? Because they were "cooking the food anyway"? And I "only paid for it when I purchased the gift card last Monday"? If you would consider this a Sabbath violation, then there is no escaping the logic. Utility use on the Sabbath IS a violation. Period.

We don't recognise this because utility use is so mundane that we dont think about it. It is a seamless part of our modern life.

Now I do NOT advocate not using the furnace or the electricity on Sunday. i just think that this exercise in logic & causistry helps us pick out how inconsistent our modern interpretations of the scriptures & the WCF can be.

Don't worry. The Reformed World is full of examples of people declaring that their own version of the reformed tradition is "the One True Faith".


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## Mushroom (Feb 10, 2010)

> Question 117: How is the sabbath or the Lord's day to be sanctified?
> 
> Answer: The sabbath or Lord's day is to be sanctified by an holy resting all the day, not only from such works as are at all times sinful, but even from such worldly employments and recreations as are on other days lawful; and making it our delight to spend the whole time (except so much of it as is to betaken up in *works of necessity* and mercy) in the public and private exercises of God's worship: and, to that end, we are to prepare our hearts, and with such foresight, diligence, and moderation, to dispose and seasonably dispatch our worldly business, that we may be the more free and fit for the duties of that day.


Heat and cooking are not necessities? I would submit that they are, and so ought to be done, but in such a way as to minimize their causing others to work on that day if one holds a 'strict sabbatarian' view. I heat my home with wood, so I can stack a pile of adequate size outside the door on Saturday to provide for Sunday, but I still need to load it in the stove. I also need light and water on Sunday, as did the Israelites of old, and providing for those things in a preparatory way so as to minimize unnecessary work on the Sabbath was not prohibited. They were not required to sit in the dark and cold and fast for the day. So it appears that one can be a 'strict sabbatarian' and use utilities. I buy my wood on a week day, yet burn it on Sunday, and I pay for my electricity on a week day, and use it on Sunday. Why would anyone make a distinction between the two, unless they were attempting to find some 'chink in the armor' with which to accuse their brethren?

Please note that I have not stated my views of Sabbath-keeping, only asserted that the idea that using utilities by a 'strict sabbatarian' is a hypocrisy is erroneous. Be careful about any assumptions you might make. You may be surprised.


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## Southern Presbyterian (Feb 10, 2010)

Moderator

Time to put this one to bed.

/Moderator


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## Semper Fidelis (Feb 12, 2010)

I've been pretty busy keeping my driveway dug out and working from home for the past week. That, plus my desire to avoid engaging in pointless disputes keeps me pretty silent on a lot of threads.

Another Elder and I were sitting outside my home yesterday and I was talking to him about the Sabbath.

I think the man of flesh within us tells us that, in reality, Christ didn't have to die for our sins. They're pretty minor, after all. Nowhere is that more evident when it comes to the 4th Commandment.

Somehow, most of us have convinced ourselves that we can't possibly keep the other 9 commandments but, when it comes to the 4th, it's a piece of cake: it's whatever we believe honors God on His day. Any suggestion otherwise is, by definition, "legalism" because it is stricter than our own.

Have any of us ever repented to the Lord for being breakers of His Law on this point? Are we convinced that we've ever truly kept this Law in practice and in heart? The moment the challenge even remotely arises that we might be Sabbath breakers our hackles go up. Why? Because we're offended by the idea that we needed Christ to atone for our violation of the Lord's Day.

It's not mine to render judgment for another's Sabbath observance and you won't see me spending much time parsing "...does this cross the line..." type of questions. Frankly, if you have to ask the question whether you should use the PuritanBoard on the Sabbath and then try and corner another man on his lack of Sabbath observance compared to your own then I would suggest that you might need to be a little more self-effacing with respect to the Law. 

If you're convinced that using the Internet on the Sabbath is a violation of the Law of God then, _in faith_, do not use it.

As for your other personal scruples on the Sabbath, there are things that you and your household will observe or not unto the Lord. Remain satisfied, in the liberty of your conscience, that you are honoring the Lord's Day. Remain ever willing, however, to be sanctified by God that even your conscience might be trained that things you once believed honored the Lord do not, in fact, do so. Liberty, however, does not require that you convince another of your own scruple nor do you need to get bent out of shape that another's scruple steps on your own. You don't, after all, _have_ to spend your Lord's Day here but, if you do, then you'll have to learn how to bear in longsuffering and patient love toward those whose views might be stricter than your own just as you would be expected to do the same if you spent the day in another's house.

Blessings!


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