# Do People Who Get Saved In the Tribulation receive the Holy Spirit



## Richard2YHWH (Oct 22, 2021)

So I heard something new from the Pastor of a new church I'm attending. I moved from Oregon back to Indiana and believe I found a good Bible believing, Bible teaching church. But what he said threw me through a loop. He said that those who are saved during the tribulation period, will not receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This conversation developed from 2 Thessalonians 2:7. which says; "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." I don't believe the Holy Spirit is removed like He does. I believe His restraint on evil is removed, but not Him. For He is omnipresent. He brang up the Old Testament as well to justify his theology, but even that didn't make much since to me. I believe I have a problem with this. We only had one conversation that lasted about an hour; and he did admit he's never been challenged on this like I had done; that he will dig into it and get back to me. I have done more digging myself and think he is wrong. There is no reason to believe scripturally that someone who gets saved during the tribulation won't receive the Holy Spirit just as the church did before it was raptured outa here. Because of Jesus, every born-again believer receives the promised gift of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirits work in my opinion has never changed, and never will. If He did, then that means we have a changing God; and that definitely goes against scripture. I hope I get some good dialog here. Thank you in advance for your time in this discussion.


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## Pergamum (Oct 22, 2021)

We are in the Tribulation right now. We are in the Last Days right now. There is no era in the future such as the millennium to wait for. We are already there.

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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Oct 22, 2021)

Most people here probably do not embrace the idea of a rapture then tribulation. Are you pre-mill? I think the one restraining in Thessalonians might be a figure like Michael. Even if God, that doesn't affect His working in believers' lives.

But I honestly wouldn't spend too much time on this, as it has no real meaning to me, or application, and it's very speculative. If I were you, through the dialogue with the pastor, I wouldn't let it affect your relationship with him in a negative way. The Church really needs unity at this time.


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## C. M. Sheffield (Oct 22, 2021)

Richard2YHWH said:


> Do people who get saved in the tribulation receive the Holy Spirit?


Oh Yes, they most certainly do! Indeed, the more savere their tribulation, the more abundantly are they filled with the Spirit's grace. You need only study the lives of those saints of old who suffered greatly for their faith in Christ—like the Waldensians, the Huguenots, or the Covenanters. Or just ask the sweet saints of China, North Korea, Afghanistan, or Cuba how the indwelling Holy Spirit has upheld and sustained them in the midst of all their sufferings.

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## jw (Oct 23, 2021)

Definitely a loopy take.

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## Guido's Brother (Oct 23, 2021)

Personally I'd be looking for a confessionally Reformed or Presbyterian church and get some eschatological sanity.

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## Richard2YHWH (Oct 23, 2021)

I definitely don't believe we are in the 7 year tribulation right now. And yes, I'm pretrib. I don't believe we will be here during the 7 year tribulation; for a few reasons. The main one is where is the church from Revelation chapter 4-19? No where, because it's not there. The 7 year tribulation is called Jacobs trouble for a reason. There is no future millennial reign of Christ? I sure don't read that in my Bible. My question is that when we are saved, we receive, be (Filled) with the holy spirit (John 14:16-17; Romans 8:11; Ephesians 1:13) Do those during the 7 year tribulation also receive, be (Filled) with the Holy Spirit upon salvation? Will He be in you during the tribulation as He is in every born-again believer now (1 Corinthians 3:16)


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## Richard2YHWH (Oct 23, 2021)

And thank you Ryan for your advice, Your right, the church needs to be united more than ever. I have never been to an IFB Church before. I love the Pastors passion for the word of God, but I'm not so sure that by believing such a thing warrants me to find another church. I don't want to find myself church hoping.


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## Christopher Robin (Oct 23, 2021)

I completely understand. I was raised the same way. Pre-trib, rapture, all that. I was almost grown up by the time I learned that the rapture and all that "Left Behind" stuff was _unknown in the church before the late 19th century!_ None of the Reformers ever heard of it or taught it, none of the pilgrims who settled the American colonies, none of the founding fathers ever heard of it. It was first articulated in the late 1800's (after the American War Between the States) by a "theologian" named Darby, who got the idea from a teenage Charismatic girl's "vision." No one could have imagined that it would become the majority report among evangelicals in less than 100 years!

But again, no one before that time ever taught any such thing. I very strongly recommend a book for you that offers historical accounts and reasoning from the Scriptures to reiterate what the Church has taught for 1900 years before Dispensationalism ever appeared. It's called _The Last Days According to Jesus_ by R.C. Sproul.

Also, for a quick little synopsis, you can click here for the first of a three-part look at the historic eschatology of the Church.

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## VictorBravo (Oct 23, 2021)

Richard2YHWH said:


> I definitely don't believe we are in the 7 year tribulation right now. And yes, I'm pretrib. I don't believe we will be here during the 7 year tribulation; for a few reasons. The main one is where is the church from Revelation chapter 4-19? No where, because it's not there. The 7 year tribulation is called Jacobs trouble for a reason. There is no future millennial reign of Christ? I sure don't read that in my Bible. My question is that when we are saved, we receive, be (Filled) with the holy spirit (John 14:16-17; Romans 8:11; Ephesians 1:13) Do those during the 7 year tribulation also receive, be (Filled) with the Holy Spirit upon salvation? Will He be in you during the tribulation as He is in every born-again believer now (1 Corinthians 3:16)


Richard, a number of things jump out in your comment. The first thing I note is the idea of "pretrib" and the 7 year tribulation come from Dispensationalism. That system is rejected by people who hold to the historic confessions. On the Puritanboard you will not find dispensationalists.

The other thing is there is a difference between being premillennial in a historic sense and being a pretrib. Premillenials can fall into the Reformed camp. Pretrib dispensationalists do not.

One thing to keep in mind is that "tribulation" does not mean "judgment." Jesus words in John 16 apply to the church throughout time, including right now:

16:33 "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

Dispensationalism is a relatively new "innovation." It is not part of the historic confessions. One of the practical problems of dispensationalism is that it takes a forced view of eschatology and looks back. This view distorts the how Scripture is interpreted. Some of the results of this distortion is a low view of God's law and a discounting of God's Covenants.

My suggestion is to start with the basics: get a good grip on what it means to be confessional, before working through eschatology.

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## Richard2YHWH (Oct 23, 2021)

Christopher. I have studied this greatly and found there were were writings on pre-trib before Darby. Pre-trib didn't start with Darby I'm sorry.
https://www.Jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's Corner/Doctrines/rapture_history.htm

But thank you.

I'm sorry Victor, but I am aware of what a confessional person is. Just so happens confessional really has nothing to do with eschatology; in my opinion. Eschatology has nothing to do with my confession of of faith in Jesus Christ and what He did on the cross. Because I believe in pre-trib does not have anything to do with my salvation. Also there is nothing about pre-trib that puts the Gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified and raised from the dead at risk. I mean isn't that where confessions and catechisms grew from; turmoil? The gospel was at risk so the churches came out with confessions and catechisms. I believe that having the today is important because in my opinion, the gospel is at risk more than ever with this false gospel going around. But Eschatology does not threaten the Gospel. I'm not a big fan of dispensationalism, all though I do believe there are different times; hence OT/NT. But that's as far as I go. I have heard of 7 dispensations all the way up to 10. To me, all that is crazy. Any way. I do appreciate the dialog.

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## C. M. Sheffield (Oct 23, 2021)

Richard2YHWH said:


> Christopher. I have studied this greatly and found there were were writings on pre-trib before Darby. Pre-trib didn't start with Darby I'm sorry.
> https://www.Jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's Corner/Doctrines/rapture_history.htm
> 
> But thank you.
> ...


Oy vey.

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## VictorBravo (Oct 23, 2021)

Richard2YHWH said:


> Just so happens confessional really has nothing to do with eschatology


Here is the problem. You state you hold to the Westminster Confession of Faith. Chapters 31 and 32 speak of eschatology in stark and basic terms.

In a nutshell, there is a Day of Judgment. At that time, those who are alive in Christ "are changed," those who are dead in Christ are raised up. There is no mention of a 7 year "second chance" after Christ gathers his people.

If your 7 year tribulation includes a second chance--that is, if your view believes that after Christ calls his people to him there is a period of time for others to come to Christ on their own, it is unconfessional.

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## Eyedoc84 (Oct 23, 2021)

MacArthur was once asked where pretrib rapture was taught in scripture (for those unaware, he believes in pretrib rapture). With a dead straight face, he said, “in the white spaces.”

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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Oct 23, 2021)

Richard2YHWH said:


> My question is that when we are saved, we receive, be (Filled) with the holy spirit (John 14:16-17; Romans 8:11; Ephesians 1:13) Do those during the 7 year tribulation also receive, be (Filled) with the Holy Spirit upon salvation? Will He be in you during the tribulation as He is in every born-again believer now (1 Corinthians 3:16)


Yes. I know of no other way for someone to be saved but by being born again. Blessings!

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## retroGRAD3 (Oct 23, 2021)

Isn't "Jesus is savior" (or rather the person who runs it) a heretic?


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## alexanderjames (Oct 23, 2021)

retroGRAD3 said:


> Isn't "Jesus is savior" (or rather the person who runs it) a heretic?


Well the site at least should be avoided. The person who runs it lumps quite a few famous Christians in the "Wolves in Sheeps clothing" section. Included there is Martin Luther and rather ironically, John MacArthur. The site is also heavily KJVO, and I did have a look at the link re the "pre-trib rapture", which reads quite erroneously its conclusions into some of the writings of Christian history.

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## Richard2YHWH (Oct 23, 2021)

Thank you everyone. May God Bless each of you


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## RamistThomist (Oct 23, 2021)

I am an amillennialist and I believe in a future tribulation/Antichrist (though I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture0.


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## Christopher Robin (Oct 23, 2021)

_@Richard2YHWH Historic_ premillennialism (aka Chialism) was indeed known before _Dispensational_ premillennialism was. But your original question described the Dispensational premil teaching.

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## C. M. Sheffield (Oct 23, 2021)

Richard2YHWH said:


> Just so happens confessional really has nothing to do with eschatology; in my opinion. Eschatology has nothing to do with my confession of of faith in Jesus Christ and what He did on the cross. Because I believe in pre-trib does not have anything to do with my salvation.


Eschatology precedes soteriology.

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## Taylor (Oct 23, 2021)

C. M. Sheffield said:


> Eschatology precedes soteriology.


I have a coffee mug from Reformed Forum with this Vos quote on it.

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## Jerusalem Blade (Oct 24, 2021)

I would stand with @Richard2YHWH in this – if he cleaves to Jesus with all his heart, born again of His Spirit, he is *soundly* saved. When I was first saved in 1968, I knew nothing about anything Christian, much less eschatology. I only knew Jesus, or rather, He knew me. I couple of weeks later I got a 
Bible, and started learning His word. As Dispensationalism was the doctrinal milieu I was in, that was what I believed, until I came to learn about "present millennium" teaching (aka Amillennialism), which showed there were only 2 NT ages (not 3), and Revelation was pertinent to the churches in John's day – its prophecies applicable to them, _as well as the churches all through the NT church age_, including the very end of the last days, which it seems we are getting near to now. 

So, *soteriology precedes eschatology.*
​

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## Richard2YHWH (Oct 24, 2021)

I absolutely agree Jerusalem Blade, that soteriology precedes eschatology. Salvation through Jesus Christ will always come first and it will never change. Weather one believes in the 7 year tribulation or not. When one is born-again in the Spirit they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit "IN" them; and it will never be taken away; unlike the Old Testament saints.


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## RamistThomist (Oct 24, 2021)

Richard2YHWH said:


> and it will never be taken away; unlike the Old Testament saints.



Old Testament saints could lose their salvation?


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## RamistThomist (Oct 24, 2021)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> I would stand with @Richard2YHWH in this – if he cleaves to Jesus with all his heart, born again of His Spirit, he is *soundly* saved. When I was first saved in 1968, I knew nothing about anything Christian, much less eschatology. I only knew Jesus, or rather, He knew me. I couple of weeks later I got a
> Bible, and started learning His word. As Dispensationalism was the doctrinal milieu I was in, that was what I believed, until I came to learn about "present millennium" teaching (aka Amillennialism), which showed there were only 2 NT ages (not 3), and Revelation was pertinent to the churches in John's day – its prophecies applicable to them, _as well as the churches all through the NT church age_, including the very end of the last days, which it seems we are getting near to now.
> 
> So, *soteriology precedes eschatology.*
> ​



What Vos means by that line is that eschatology structures the biblical narrative, so eschatology (in the broad sense) structures soteriology.

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## Richard2YHWH (Oct 24, 2021)

That's exactly what I'm saying. NT saints can't. Not even in the tribulation (Mathew 24:24) If Eschatology precedes soteriology, then it's not about Jesus anymore.


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## Richard2YHWH (Oct 24, 2021)

Jesus Christ structures everything


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## Richard2YHWH (Oct 24, 2021)

I'm sorry Bayou, but that is completely wrong. It has been and always will be Jesus Christ that structures the Bible narrative. It's always been about Him. 
​


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## JH (Oct 24, 2021)

Richard2YHWH, Where in the Bible do you get the idea that Old Testament saints can lose their salvation, but New Testament saints can't?


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## RamistThomist (Oct 24, 2021)

Richard2YHWH said:


> I'm sorry Bayou, but that is completely wrong. It has been and always will be Jesus Christ that structures the Bible narrative. It's always been about Him.
> ​



Not sure how that disagrees with anything I said. Classically Reformed people have a broader understanding of eschatology. For evangelicals, eschatology means Left Behind. For the historic Reformed, eschatology means the unfolding of God's promises in history.

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## RamistThomist (Oct 24, 2021)

Richard2YHWH said:


> That's exactly what I'm saying. NT saints can't. Not even in the tribulation (Mathew 24:24) If Eschatology precedes soteriology, then it's not about Jesus anymore.



How does that mean OT saints can lose their salvation?


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## RamistThomist (Oct 24, 2021)

Richard2YHWH said:


> Jesus Christ structures everything



No one here disagrees with that. Because I believe in covenant theology and unfolding redemption, I can say Jesus structures everything.

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## arapahoepark (Oct 24, 2021)

Richard2YHWH said:


> I'm sorry Bayou, but that is completely wrong. It has been and always will be Jesus Christ that structures the Bible narrative. It's always been about Him.
> ​


Bayou doesn't disagree with you. Sometimes we here have our heads a little too much in the clouds/academia. 
He means that the gradual revealing (basically eschatology) of Christ through prophecy, shadows and types structures the Bible and it comes to fruition in the New (last days of Joel).

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## Regi Addictissimus (Oct 24, 2021)

Richard2YHWH said:


> That's exactly what I'm saying. NT saints can't. Not even in the tribulation (Mathew 24:24) If Eschatology precedes soteriology, then it's not about Jesus anymore.



Eschatology is intimately intertwined with Christ—inseparable, even. Paul sums it up beautifully in his hymn:

Colossians 1:15–20 (CSB):

_He is the image of the invisible God, 
the firstborn over all creation. 
16 For everything was created by him, 
in heaven and on earth, 
the visible and the invisible, 
whether thrones or dominions 
or rulers or authorities—
all things have been created through him and for him. 
17 He is before all things, 
and by him all things hold together. 
18 He is also the head of the body, the church; 
he is the beginning, 
the firstborn from the dead, 
so that he might come to have 
first place in everything. 
19 For God was pleased to have 
all his fullness dwell in him, 
20 and through him to reconcile 
everything to himself, 
whether things on earth or things in heaven, 
by making peace 
through his blood, shed on the cross._

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## Guido's Brother (Oct 24, 2021)

If Richard is arguing that OT saints could lose their salvation, that is an unbiblical and anti-confessional belief. See chapter 5 of the Canons of Dort. The preservation of the saints means the preservation of ALL saints, before, during and after the coming of Christ.

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## Richard2YHWH (Oct 24, 2021)

Did not Saul loose his salvation when the holy Spirit was taken from him? Read Eze 18:20-26. verse 21 in context says exactly that; " But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die." Also Eze 33-11-16. If they cannot lose their salvation in the Old Testament then all the Jews would be saved. And we know that didn't happen. I believe Adam lost his salvation; that is until the blood (God made garments of skin). 
Old Testament saints were not eternally secure Eze 18:24: “But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die,” Here are some more verses on that: Sam. 7:15; 1 Sam. 16:14.
When an Old Testament saint died, he did not go into heaven like New Testament saints (2 Cor. 5:8), he went to Abraham’s bosom. “And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried,” (Luke 16:22). They did not get out of Abraham’s bosom until after the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ (Eph. 4:8-10). There are major differences between the Old and the New Testaments regarding salvation. Major changes occurred after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. Even the disciples were not “converted” until after Christ arose (Lk. 22:32).


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## Richard2YHWH (Oct 24, 2021)

Yes, eschatology has always been intertwined with Christ, but it has never preceded it. Escapology has never structured the biblical narrative, Christ has. From beginning to end. But your right, escapology has always been intertwined with Christ, but so has a lot of other things; like covenant, eternity, or even repentance just to name a few.


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## Regi Addictissimus (Oct 24, 2021)

Richard2YHWH said:


> Escapology


Funny, that is what I call the "Left Behind", pre-trib rapture teaching—escapology, rather than eschatology.

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## RamistThomist (Oct 24, 2021)

Richard2YHWH said:


> Did not Saul loose his salvation when the holy Spirit was taken from him? Read Eze 18:20-26. verse 21 in context says exactly that; " But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die." Also Eze 33-11-16. If they cannot lose their salvation in the Old Testament then all the Jews would be saved. And we know that didn't happen. I believe Adam lost his salvation; that is until the blood (God made garments of skin).



His having (and losing) the Holy Spirit could be glossed as a number of things: anointing for royal office or even tasting the mysteries of the heavenlies (Hebrews 6). If you are saying he lost his salvation, you are an Arminian.

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## RamistThomist (Oct 24, 2021)

Richard2YHWH said:


> I believe Adam lost his salvation; that is until the blood (God made garments of skin).



Hebrews 6 says that if someone (hypothetically) could lose his salvation, then it is impossible to restore him to repentance.

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## JH (Oct 24, 2021)

Richard, there are zero historically Reformed ministers prior to the 20th century who taught Old Testament saints could lose their salvation. That is grave error, and a peculiar teaching of dispensationalism.

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## alexanderjames (Oct 24, 2021)

Perhaps it would be helpful to define what we mean when we say “lose salvation”. 

Typically speaking, and what the reformed view holds to, is that a person who is regenerate, that is to say born of God, cannot “lose” their salvation. Those whom God saves and adopts into His family by the Holy Spirit, He keeps. Genuine Christians cannot be lost, no matter the dispensation of Old or New Testament. 

It might be fair to say however that those who are visibly God’s people, in a sense certainly can “lose” the salvation of God by apostasy. Again, this is whether it be the Jews in the Old Testament or the visible church today. For example, as you point out Richard, those Jews who were brought out of the land of Egypt did not enter into God’s rest, though they saw the miracles and goodness of the Lord. They died in the wilderness because of their disobedience of unbelief (Hebrews 4).

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## Jerusalem Blade (Oct 24, 2021)

Hello again @Richard2YHWH,

In your defence of Saul losing what he once supposedly had, you bring in two errors: that Saul was given the Holy Spirit unto salvation, as opposed to the Spirit simply giving a new heart to be kingly and able to govern so great a people. To substantiate this please note that he *never* gave evidence of a heart converted to follow Jehovah, while *OFTEN* giving evidence of an unregenerate heart, such as casually disregarding and disobeying the word of the LORD in the matter of offering a burnt offering – 1 Samuel 13 – and in 1 Samuel 15 where he spared Agag and the best of the livestock, both of which he’d been ordered to kill. And then he ordered the slaughter of the entire priesthood and their families dwelling in Nob, under Ahimelech (save Abiathar who escaped), 1 Samuel 22. On top of that he constantly sought to murder David, and at the end of his life consulted the witch who lived at Endor. He was *never* a godly man.

When you bring in Ezekiel 18:24,

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.​
please do not mistake “the righteous” spoken of for an elect soul; but, rather, there were *many* in the days of Jesus (for example) who were considered “the righteous” in the eyes of both themselves and of the people – that is the Pharisees, Scribes, etc – who nonetheless showed the true colors of their wickedness by murdering the Prince of life, and that without repentance, upon the preaching of Peter. Such “righteous” as Ezekiel spoke of were not true righteous, as the proverb shows: “For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again” (Prov 24:16; cf. Mic 7:8; Dan 11:35). The LORD *never* loses His elect children.

It is proper hermeneutics and clear reasoning to interpret difficult passages by those that are plain, such as Jesus saying

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand (John 10:27,28,29).​
If you say, Richard, “Well, that is the NT and not the Old!”, you will be denying that the OT saints looked forward to the Messiah and His sacrifice they had been schooled to seek from the typical Levitical sacrifices. The elect remnant in the OT lived by faith in the promises of God, such as Abraham, and David – who saw the Messiah in spirit and spoke of Him often in the psalms, and Isaiah who saw the Messianic Servant, and His death in the place of sinners.

Please be aware that many of us here at Puritan Board have come out of Dispensationalism and learned the Reformed way of understanding the saving way of Jehovah God toward His chosen elect people throughout the church ages of the OT _and_ the New. We can understand and appreciate the way you think, but we have come to the PB to be among like-minded brothers and sisters. We have learned to see that Psalm 65:4; Jer 50:20; Psalm 32:1,2 – and many other places – speak of God’s faithful keeping of His OT saints. Especially in Isaiah 53 the LORD shone His light on the suffering Messiah for all Israel to see, even before Messiah came in the flesh. Even in the OT days He was teaching His people that “the just shall live by his faith” (Habakkuk 2:4).

Welcome to PB, Richard, and to good doctrine, if you will have it.

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## Richard2YHWH (Oct 24, 2021)

Thank you Jerusalem Blade

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## Taylor (Oct 24, 2021)

What "eschatology precedes soteriology" does _not_ mean:

1) Eschatology is more important than soteriology.
2) One's views on the millennium take precedence over one’s faith in Christ.
3) One's salvation depends upon their eschatology.

What "eschatology precedes soteriology" _does_ mean:

In terms of biblical revelation, God's consummation of all things in Christ (eschatology) 1) comes before his revelation of the way of salvation (soteriology) temporally and 2) is the stage on which the drama of our redemption is performed.

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## Guido's Brother (Oct 24, 2021)

If you're going to bring in Saul as proof that OT saints could lose their salvation, then I'd like to introduce you to an important distinction in Reformed theology: general and special operations of the Holy Spirit. I've written about this distinction here.

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## Richard2YHWH (Oct 24, 2021)

@Jerusalem Blade If you were to have me read one book that teaches reformed theology in contrast to dispensationalism; what would it be? I honestly don't consider myself a dispensationalist, mainly because I don't know much about it. But it seems that the things that I have said on here label me as such. I do read and study the word of God and believe I have a decent grasp on truth. But listening to most of you all, I don't. I have read the whole Bible twice in 5 years, and have read the new testament at least a dozen times. which tells you how fresh I am. I haven't read many other books other than the Bible. If I am as wrong in my thinking as most of you have said I am, then please tell me what to read to get a better understanding of why reformed is the only truth. I really want to know.

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## Richard2YHWH (Oct 24, 2021)

Thank you Guido, I will definitely read

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## Steve Curtis (Oct 24, 2021)

Richard, let me begin by saying that I am so pleased to read that you are open to reading about other views!
Many of us began where you are now - I, for one, get it! But we also took the first step that you are considering. I pray that you will find the journey as humbling, as meaningful, and as thrilling as I have. I would suggest:

Dispensationalism: Rightly Dividing the People of God?
BY: KEITH A. MATHISON

Also, this is quite good and available for free online:








Understanding Dispensationalists


Vern Sheridan Poythress Westminster Theological Seminary Chestnut Hill, PA 19118 summer, 1986 To my wife Diane ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS This book is dedicated to my wife Diane, whom I thank for her encoura…




frame-poythress.org

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## Richard2YHWH (Oct 24, 2021)

Guido. Interesting paper. When I think of the Holy Spirit giving me life I think of what my life was before. I was dead. I was a dead man walking. When the Holy Spirit indwelt me, He gave me life. Life "IN" Christ. Yes my salvation came because of Christ, but it was the Holy Spirit that convicted me of my unbelief (Sin). The born-again believer receives the Holy Spirit; meaning the Holy Spirit tabernacles. My body now is the home of the Holy Spirit, never to depart. Am I right? Didn't Jesus change things when He died on that cross in my place? Things aren't like they used to be before Jesus (OT) right? From the time that Jesus died on the cross and rose again to the end of the age, everyone who is born-again will be the temple of the Holy Spirit, right?


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## Guido's Brother (Oct 24, 2021)

Richard2YHWH said:


> Guido. Interesting paper. When I think of the Holy Spirit giving me life I think of what my life was before. I was dead. I was a dead man walking. When the Holy Spirit indwelt me, He gave me life. Life "IN" Christ. Yes my salvation came because of Christ, but it was the Holy Spirit that convicted me of my unbelief (Sin). The born-again believer receives the Holy Spirit; meaning the Holy Spirit tabernacles. My body now is the home of the Holy Spirit, never to depart. Am I right? Didn't Jesus change things when He died on that cross in my place? Things aren't like they used to be before Jesus (OT) right? From the time that Jesus died on the cross and rose again to the end of the age, everyone who is born-again will be the temple of the Holy Spirit, right?


The question is initially two-fold: whether people had faith in the Old Testament, and whether people were dead in sin in the Old Testament and thus unable to believe of their own resources. The answer to both of those is "yes" -- see Hebrews 11 and Psalm 51. Then the question becomes: how were dead sinners able to believe in the Old Testament? The only possible answer to that is through the power of the Holy Spirit. He regenerated people in the Old Testament, just as he did in the New Testament. Both the new birth and faith are gifts of the Holy Spirit, period. It doesn't matter where you are in redemptive history.

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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Oct 24, 2021)

Richard2YHWH said:


> @Jerusalem Blade If you were to have me read one book that teaches reformed theology in contrast to dispensationalism; what would it be? I honestly don't consider myself a dispensationalist, mainly because I don't know much about it. But it seems that the things that I have said on here label me as such. I do read and study the word of God and believe I have a decent grasp on truth. But listening to most of you all, I don't. I have read the whole Bible twice in 5 years, and have read the new testament at least a dozen times. which tells you how fresh I am. I haven't read many other books other than the Bible. If I am as wrong in my thinking as most of you have said I am, then please tell me what to read to get a better understanding of why reformed is the only truth. I really want to know.


I love your humility! I have learned over the years, that we can become very educated on our own beliefs, which is good, but it is a very honorable thing to become educated on beliefs that are not ours as well. I like to learn as much as I can because it is the truth I truly want. To me, this is a valuable part of critical thinking. Keep up the great work! You sound educated in your views, and passionate, now it sounds like a good idea to look at the confessional views. I think you'll be impressed. I'm actually not quite a Calvinist because that's what I wanted to be, I just can't rationalize the Bible and life any other way.

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## Richard2YHWH (Oct 24, 2021)

Thank you all for helping. And Ryan. Don't we all have a little Calvinist in us  I totally agree Guido!! Thank you all for the help. I will definitely look into the creeds & confessional views. Their is a lot of them, but I will search for reformed confessions and creeds.

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## Eyedoc84 (Oct 24, 2021)

@Richard2YHWH 
I would start with getting more familiar with the historic reformed documents. Belgic Confession, Heidelberg Catechism, Canons of Dort (The whole thing, not the misappropriated “TULIP”), the Westminster Confession of Faith and the Larger and Shorter Catechisms.

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## Richard2YHWH (Oct 25, 2021)

Thank you. I will start reading them prayerfully

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## Richard2YHWH (Oct 25, 2021)

This is where I will start 
file:///C:/Users/hp/Desktop/BelgicConfession.pdf
file:///C:/Users/hp/Desktop/HeidelbergCatechism.pdf
file:///C:/Users/hp/Desktop/Canons%20of%20Dordt.pdf
file:///C:/Users/hp/Desktop/Westminster%20Confession%20of%20Faith.pdf

Thank you for the info everyone. May God Bless each of you as you grow in Him

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## KMK (Oct 25, 2021)

And with that, I will close this thread which should not have started in the first place.

Move along...

Nothing to see here.

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