# Manifestations of evil spirits



## Pergamum

In a culture where evil spirits are regularly welcomed in and where witchcraft is the norm, what sort of physical manifestations are we likely to see?

Can witchcraft curses have physical effects on other non-Christian tribesmen? I am hearing credible stories of people dropping dead or developing ailments sometimes from curses (psychosomatic perhaps?).

I was cursed myself but laughed it off and told them that it could only return to the person. What is the recommended prescription for being put under a curse?

Would evil spirits manifest differently in Africa, or Indo or New Guienea perhaps? And would it vary even moreso in a Western secular culture where atheism is the strategy of the Devil?


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## Semper Fidelis

That's a good question Perg. I don't know that we'd ever find a surefire answer from Scripture. It is interesting that "demonic" activity takes different forms even in the NT where there are demoniacs foaming at the mouth that Christ heals as well as Pharisaical "sons of the devil" that He condemns.


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## Ravens

Perg,

I think that the first chapters of Job could sufficiently answer your question, wherein Satan brings fire from heaven to destroy a house, a great wind to destroy another house, and lacerates Job with painful boils. The text seems to intimate that he easily could have slain Job with nary a thought, had God not prevented him and regulated his evil.

In the Gospels, do demons not throw people down? Drive them mad to the point of living in cemeteries? I forget the exact reference, but did Christ not say that the woman with the issue of blood had been "bound by Satan", or something to that effect? 

I don't see any logical or Biblical reason why an evil spirit couldn't afflict or slay someone if that person was not one of God's elect; and, Scripturally, the elect can be afflicted by evil spirits prior to conversion (the examples just cited) and, if Job counts, physically afflicted after. But that's a more debatable point.

I think that too often, especially in Reformed circles, the closing and cessation of special revelation is practically, if not formally, seen to mean the cessation of everything supernatural, or out of the ordinary. But the one does not imply the other, in my opinion.

How many dark spirits are there on the level of the loyal one who slew Sennacherib's army? I imagine when we get to heaven and look back upon our life, we will realize that we lived our life, in a very real sense, as Daniel lived in the lion's den, constantly surrounded by entities of immense power that could tear us to shreds and drive us mad according to their own capacities. And yet God shuts their mouths and prevents them from doing harm, just as He did to the lions of old.

Anyhow, that's not a "blanket acceptation" of everything, either. I'm sure there can be social belief, psychosomatic worry, etc. But I imagine the "real thing" goes on as well, especially in countries wherein the gospel has never had a major influence.


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## Pergamum

Joshua:

You said, "But I imagine the "real thing" goes on as well, especially in countries wherein the gospel has never had a major influence."

Is it possible than that dramatic manifestations do sometimes occur in remote or unreached area and are not mere illusion?

Also, should we expect that the West should have a rise in these manifestations as it becomes "Post-Christian"?


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## Pergamum

And are such spirits able to be seen? How would one respond to reports of "the dead ones' walking through one's area of ministry (i.e. spirits reported by locals travelling through tribal lands)... Can spirits really roam the jungle and be sensed by locals?


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## BJClark

Pergamum;



> And are such spirits able to be seen? How would one respond to reports of "the dead ones' walking through one's area of ministry (i.e. spirits reported by locals travelling through tribal lands)... Can spirits really roam the jungle and be sensed by locals?



I don't know why not, can you not sense The Holy Spirit close to you? So why wouldn't you be able to sense evil when it is near you as well?

And doesn't scripture tell us that the devil was going to and fro throughout the whole earth to seeking who he could devour? 

And that the demons dwelled inside people even to where they asked to be sent to the pigs, so if they have no place to *dwell* why wouldn't they roam around until they found another place to dwell?


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## ChristopherPaul

BJClark said:


> Pergamum;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And are such spirits able to be seen? How would one respond to reports of "the dead ones' walking through one's area of ministry (i.e. spirits reported by locals travelling through tribal lands)... Can spirits really roam the jungle and be sensed by locals?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know why not, can you not sense The Holy Spirit close to you? So why wouldn't you be able to sense evil when it is near you as well?
Click to expand...


I am not sure what you mean by sensing the the Holy Spirit close to you?

How am I to know I am sensing the Holy Spirit or any Spirit or whether it is just "an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of an underdone potato...?"


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## Ravens

Perg,

I don't see why dramatic illustrations wouldn't be possible. That's one of the points I was trying to make by mentioning the fire from heaven and the great wind that Satan caused. 

_Personally_, I don't see _why_ demons couldn't manifest bodily. But that's simply a personal opinion, and one that, I'm sure, is a very tiny minority on this board. For myself, I find it pretty clear that demons and unclean spirits are merely fallen, rebellious angels. In Scripture, angels often "assume" some type of "body" that can physically interact with this world. That seems to be a pretty common ability of angels; and fallen angels are, nonetheless, still angels. Athanasius said that demons often took physical forms to attack St. Anthony, For what it's worth.

As to the West: Who knows? I wouldn't even know how to judge the decline of a nation, the more I think about it. I certainly have a low opinion of this country, but over the past few months I've really been questioning how much of a "golden age" Christianity ever had in America. For myself, I'm not totally sure that abortion and the rise in the occult isn't that much different than black slavery, Unitarianism, spiritualism, and, most of all, the wholesale slaughter of many Native American tribes and the broken oaths encapsulated in treaties. 

I incline to think that things are getting much worse, or, at the very least, evil is just much more open and accepted, privately and publicly. And in that respect, when Christ is explicitly rejected and mocked, and occult practices are embraced and sought after across the nation, then yes, I suppose one could expect an increase in open demonic activity. Who knows, though? I wouldn't be surprised if materialistic science and demonic belief became fused one day, a la C.S. Lewis and the "macrobes." It wouldn't surprise me at all if scientists announced ten years from now that they have received numerical messages from "quantum string observers" or some technobabbling term that decried belief in the Christian God as an impediment to genetic development.

That being said, I do think that one can "sense" evil spirits at times. Martin Luther clearly did. And even a conservative Presbyterian par excellence, namely, Frank Smith, mentions in one of his sermons how in seminary one night he felt an incredibly evil presence in his room that he still remembers to this day.

Anyhow, just my opinion, take care!


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## sekacavelle

Perg, i think you have articulated the thought clearly. As one coming from a culture and background where manifestation of demonic spirits is not a question of reality or not but is the norm of culture and is controlled by these spirits in such a sphere. I think here in the western world and particularly amoungst social circles where Gods grace has been manifest over centuries the populace in these cultures tend to be sceptical of existence and manifestations of evil. However the Bible never hides the fact that evil exists and as such manifests itself. If it didnt then there would never have been a need for the arrival of Jesus Christ in History. Particularly i find that in the Western saved churches there is little regard of the saving work of Christ because they have never experienced outright manifestation of evil at play, while we saved Africans and coming from a society controlled and run by evil forces outright rejoice immensly at the name of Jesus Christ. How true that Mary was seen at the feet of The Lord while the temple dwellers did not even wash the Lords feet.


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## Raj

*Christ has set us free*



Pergamum said:


> In a culture where evil spirits are regularly welcomed in and where witchcraft is the norm, what sort of physical manifestations are we likely to see?
> 
> If I got you right, evil spirit worship, sacrifices normally animals, (in some case even the children), loss after loss of property, fearful life, a lot of money and energy waste, use of wine, sometime a member of the family specially of the teenage might be used for witchcraft, enemity between cerntain families over the issue of cursing etc.
> Can witchcraft curses have physical effects on other non-Christian tribesmen? I am hearing credible stories of people dropping dead or developing ailments sometimes from curses (psychosomatic perhaps?).
> 
> Yes, that might happen and it does, as they believe, so it happns but not always. Some time the guess/doubt victimizes the families.
> I was cursed myself but laughed it off and told them that it could only return to the person. What is the recommended prescription for being put under a curse?
> 
> You may laugh, only because of Christ. Praise God for that. But remember always brother, when you come home, meet your children, always pray for them and for the whole family protection. Claim the promises of God.
> 
> The Lord has helped us this way. We have noticed our kids weeping without any reason, sudden fear in the night, etc. We prayed and God calmed the situation.
> 
> The attack might come if one is Unbeliever, not walking with the Lord, it has happend in our field and we have seen it, when we were in our Seminary with some outsider nominal believers but they called our professor/pastor and prayer did make a difference. We saw a woman litrally crawling on the floor like a serpent. It took about 2 hours to pray for her and finally God gave victory. She believed in Christ immediatly after recovery.
> Would evil spirits manifest differently in Africa, or Indo or New Guienea perhaps? And would it vary even moreso in a Western secular culture where atheism is the strategy of the Devil?




We praise God that we have been liberated by Christ through His precoius blood, otherwise we ourselves were victim of these short of activities. Our family suffered alot but now praise God that we dont need to fear now anything except our Lord. WE have committed all things to God now. And we praise God, for He said,"It is finished".


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## Pergamum

So, if your church supported a missionary that minsiitered somewhere remote and they begin reporting strange things what would be your first reaction? 

To disbelieve him or believe him? What if he experienced some strange things; how realible is that experience?

These strange things include:

-premonitory dreams,
-Sudden fits of crying done by locals when in the presence of evangelists,
-reports of locals being demon possessed,
-reports of locals (several at once) claiming to see spirits.
-largr groups of people asking for help from evil spirits,
-refusal to plant or build houses on certain places of land,
-relocating whole villages to escape the local spirits,
-refusing to drink out of a clean water stream and drinking instead out of dirty swamp due to the stream being a sacred place.
-curses that seem to lead to people dying. One evangelist claims that he lost his sight temporarily and another one had his leg swell up after being cursed.



The existence of these things rests largely on experience, a very faulty piece of equipment. 

Can places be inhabited by spirits (a person is spacially located and can be inhabited it seems, why not a house, or stretch of jungle, etc).


And if these dramatic things are indeed true then why do they not seem to happen in the West? 

And do I really need to "claim" anything in the name of Christ if I am already His. 

Do I even need any extra or special prayers besides the normal means of grace. What is one to do in such cases that extend beyond one's normal spiritual exercises of prayer and bible reading?


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## Ravens

Perg, 

At this point I would ask the advice of elders and fellow missionaries. I certainly don't want to even accidentally pretend to have any knowledge about what exactly you should do. Not that you are asking.

With that caveat, I would think that a church would not send a man and fund a man if they didn't trust the man. So if a man has been sent into an unevangelized area to proclaim the everlasting Godspell, and believes he is encountering demonic opposition, then I think that man, and some people from his sending church, should fast and pray. The man should fast, pray, and preach the Gospel. The church should fast, pray, and ask the Lord to open hearts to the Gospel and open doors for the man.

I very much believe in the stark reality of evil spirits, and in that respect might be out of step with the Reformed culture at large, but on the other hand, I have roughly the same answer as the Reformed churches, that is, the gospel.

If I were you, I would think about and reflect on how the church has spread thus far. Someone quoted Athanasius on here one time, perhaps it was On The Incarnation, (I can't remember), about how magic decreased as Christianity flourished throughout the Roman world. So even if Westerners doubt you, Athanasius certainly wouldn't, seeing as Christianity hasn't spread throughout your part of the world. Read about Boniface chopping down Donar's oak to show the pagans the powerlessness of Donar-Donner-Thor-Tor, or Patrick lighting the fire in opposition to the Druids at Tara.

You have been commissioned to preach the Gospel. The reality of the spirits who oppose you should only serve to strengthen and bolster your belief and awareness of the reality and power of God. Now you can see in living color what Paul meant when he said that unbelievers were under captivity to the devil, the prince of the power of the air, who works in the children of disobedience. 

Perhaps the Lord will show you His own reality and power in fresh ways, who is able to do exceeding abundantly beyond all that you can ask or imagine. The Uncreated Lord of Light is infinitely more powerful than finite, created, twisted, fallen spirits, and it is His gospel you announce, to liberate the captives and free those in captivity. 

Who knows, ten years from now, magic might be subdued in the area, a la Athanasius' comment, and the conquests of Patrick and Boniface for the Lord. Maybe two generations from now the grandchildren of those converted under your ministry might be so richly blessed with the favor of God and all that His favor entails that they have the luxury to wonder and theorize about whether the very spirits that tormented their ancestors even exist now, since God has so richly blessed them.

Who knows? Be strong and of a good courage, and preach and share the Gospel. And it is the Gospel that will bring light, sanity and freedom to these people. Joe Morecraft actually mentions the conversion of a host of demonized Africans (I believe they were Zulu, but I'm not sure) in his sermon "Demons: Where Are They Today" that can be found on sermonaudio.

Anyhow, I would somewhat doubt your claim that demonization is unknown in the West. I could list numerous arguments to the contrary, but they are just as ipse dixit as the ones mentioned by you. 

Take care brother!


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## Pergamum

What about locals claiming that certain spirits control certain places? For instance, no bathing in this stream, no clearing this part of the forest. Is it possible or discernible that certain areas are the realms of certain spirits? And what should be done?

A peer was wanting an airstrip cleared. The locals refused, due to a spirit owning the land. The locals said, "We know the spirit cannot hurt you (referring to the Christian workers), but it will get revenge on us instead because we are still under its power.."


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## moral necessity

Perg,

I do not doubt what you are saying. I have never experienced this personally, yet, I affirm the possibility, if not the probability of such. In America, most of us are bogged down with our own selves so much that it takes perhaps very little for a demon to get us off track. We are overwhelmed with our own lusts and desires and selfishness that we need not much compulsion to divert us from Christ. I grant the probability of spirits dominating the land and areas of certain places. Yet, if I were to meet some believer who desired to occupy such an area for the sake of Christ, I would encourage him to do so in prayer and humiliation. Knowing that all demons are completely under the absolute sovereignty of God at all times, and that they are controlled by God as a puppet on a string, I do not fear any of them at any second within that perspective. Prayerfully submitted, I would venture to promote the gospel wherever I was compelled to proclaim it!

Blessings!


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## Pergamum

Yes, I always believe that sacred oaks ought to get the axe. Chop it down, build a fire and hold a prayer meeting around the light of said fire. If a sacred land, designate it as the outhouse....


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## Raj

This week we heard a Filippino professor saying, "there was a Western missionary who went to the hills by his car, on the way to specific mountainous region his car engine stopped working. He came out to see what was wrong, while he was trying to guess the problem, some locals got around him, they said, "the spirits are angry with you."

So, the professor said, "it depends on the wordview we live in". The Western thought, that it was a scientific problem, but the locals took it in their own way.


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## Raj

We built our house nearby a land where local used to burn their deads. We had no problem there but locals did not dare to come to see us on certian times. They asked repeatedly don't you fear there? But God has helped us maintaining our testimony. Nothing happend to us, now after 3 years, some locals also have joined the region with us by making their new houses. 

To those people we preach, Not that Jesus can justify us or He died for us (all these are essential part of our faith) but that He is powerful than other spirits. And if you believe in Him you will get delievrance and freedom from all fear. And slowly then bring them to the point that Jesus gives us new life.


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## Leslie

This is not just a missions problem. My husband and I were in Thailand. Due to a curse (which I did not know about at the time), I became very ill: involuntary weight loss and weakness of my legs which prevented my walking unassisted. My survival was in question. Then a Thai believer identified the problem as a curse. He prayed for me and I was totally healed within 30 seconds, after having been ill for 2 months.

Our church at home was aware of my illness so when we returned, they asked what happened. We told them. Suddenly all sorts of supernatural phenomena started coming out of the woodwork. In a small church (seated 200 and seldom full) five people or groups came to tell us their experience, always with, "No way I'd discuss this with the pastor; he'd think I was crazy." 

Thus a conspiracy of silence surrounds those who are afflicted with evil spirits--they suffer in silence because of the defective worldviews of their pastors, worldviews that do not include, in any practical sense, the "middle storey" of demons, witchcraft, curses, and deliverance from the same.


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## TimV

There are too many reports from all over the world to think otherwise than that there are demons working today. Rushdoony once told me a personal story from his days as a missionary on an Indian reservation that spooked me silly. When I was in Papua New Guinea the older missionaries that I was with were absolutely certain of it.

But having said that (and I know nothing about you) you need to be under the direct authority of an older, experienced person whom you can turn to for practical advice in the matter before making up your mind, or doing anything, or giving any advice to locals. After 6 months in PNG and 9 years in Africa I can assure you those locals know exactly how to push your buttons. Not that they are doing it in this case, mind you, but I trust that you have someone thoroughly familiar with the locals that you can consult with.


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## Leslie

The exorcism of evil spirits is only described in the synoptic gospels, not in John. There are 9 events involving 10 demonized persons. Of these two were crazy (the Gadarenes), 4 had uncertain/unrecorded initial manifestations and 4 were physically ill. Of the physically ill, one was crippled, one mute, 1 blind and mute, and one had seizures. People in the west usually picture demonized persons as acting loud and crazy, but that is clearly not the scriptural pattern in most cases. This opinion arose from the spectacular Gadarene story as well as the usually noisy events surrounding exorcisms. I counted the demonized man in the synagogue at Nazareth as having an uncertain/unrecorded initial manifestation. Although he was loud when confronted with Jesus, he would not have been allowed into the synagogue if the demon had manifested that way earlier.

I was born and educated in the states, grew up in a Reformed environment but very naturalistic as regards the spirit world. Demons were for another age and other places; they were not close to home. Starting in '84, I experienced a shift in worldview with a series of encounters with spirit phenomena, encounters which made the scriptural teaching on the matter come alive. For those who are interested in a description of the kind of phenomena and the alternative worldview of which we speak, The Unseen Face of Islam by Bill Musk is a must-read.

Speaking as a physician, a very powerful argument for any diagnosis is a successful therapeutic trial if (and only if) the treatment offered in the therapeutic trial is specific for one condition rather than a general shotgun good-for-all-kinds-of-illness treatment. I can vouch for the fact that treating certain medical and emotional conditions as demonization, with spiritual counseling, confession, and deliverance actually works and that where other treatments fail miserably. I'm aware of one godly old lady who, quite unwillingly, became involved in the deliverance of pastors who were **** addicts. These men had gone through agony trying to kick the habit. She put stringent conditions on them before she would deal with them, would only deal with those she was convinced were genuine believers, and was in many cases successful. 

There are two general approaches to exorcism. One is the Neil Anderson approach of truth encounter. This appeals to those of Reformed persuasion as it is quieter and less messy than the direct power encounter. The other is the power encounter--C. Peter Wagner and Charles Kraft and some of the third-wave people have written on this.

I've recently entered a new phase of ministry in a highly animistic area, supporting an infant congregation of mbb's who are trying to integrate their recent teachings on Christianity, the classical m teaching of their previous places of worship, and the heavily animistic, syncretistic folk religion that was part of their previous religious allegiance. Having seen the powerful impact of demonstrations of Jesus' power over evil spirits, I'm wondering if it might be within God's will, if confronted at clinic with someone demonized, to attempt exorcism. It scares me to try and it scares me to shrug my shoulders and say, "Can't help you". Has anyone else any helpful wisdom?


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## Puritan Sailor

Pergamum said:


> So, if your church supported a missionary that minsiitered somewhere remote and they begin reporting strange things what would be your first reaction?
> 
> To disbelieve him or believe him? What if he experienced some strange things; how realible is that experience?


I would believe you. In fact, I would attempt to call the church to a special day of prayer and fasting for you, praying not only that the forces of evil would be destroyed, but that you would have great wisdom in helping these people break from their faith in demons and put their faith in Christ.


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## sekacavelle

The manifestation of evil either in demon possession or witchcraft and all its varius manifestation is a clear sign that one has not received the gift of salvation which is delivered by the Gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Therefore as we all believe in predestination and all the reformed position, when we meet people with manifestation of this evil we know that it may be God calling us and putting us in these situations to minister the word. I do not think excorsisms are that neccessary but either way if the true Gospel is preached the devil cannot stand and if that individual is predestined unto salvation they will obviously receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. I know that once you receive the Holy Spirit you will not manifest demon possesssion


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## Pergamum

Real scenario:

A man wore a chamr that he claimed possessed a spirit. He said that a demon from this charm began to come to him and tell him to hang himself. These voices and apparitions got stronger and stronger untilhe was on the verge of suicide.

He asked for corporate prayer as the only thing capable of freeing him.

We removed the charm (which he was afraid to do, lest he die, as promised bythe demon voice in his head) and then we prayed that whatever was bothering him stop and if it was a demon for that demon to flee.

The voices and apparitions ceased and never came back.


Did I perform an exorcism?


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## Leslie

I wouldn't call this an exorcism because the demons were still outside of him, but it was a deliverance of sorts. You should have burned the charm. It's the only way to and/or to keep the thing from causing grief wherever it was thrown.

It's hard to construct something analogous to a systematic theology (?systematic demonology?) as regards the spirit world. There are some but scant scriptural data and there are also data from various cultures, what people do and what works. For example, every animistic culture known believes in the boomerang theory of curses. If A puts a curse on B and then B manages to evade the curse, the curse will necessarily return to A and negatively affect him. Also, all believers that I know who actually are involved in deliverance ministry, they unanimously agree that believers can be demonized. I know no scriptural data whatsoever, either way, that says that this either can or cannot happen.


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## Pergamum

why burn an inanimate object? Why couldn't I keep it as a momento? This sounds superstitious.


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## MW

Leslie said:


> I know no scriptural data whatsoever, either way, that says that this either can or cannot happen.



We are describing a phenomenon, yes? The phenomenon is devilish. Devilish phenomena are deceptive by definition. So these things have no power in their own right, but the power is exercised by means of deceiving the person involved into thinking in terms of inferior deities and magical rites. There is no reason, then, why the "casting out" of such non-entities cannot be as simple as bringing the person to acknowledge the truth.


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## Leslie

You can't be serious. Are you asking for problems? The charm itself may be inanimate but there are demons associated with it and they tend to stick and cause problems. Even after they are sent packing, they tend to return to the place from whence they came. Nightmares and inexplicable illnesses are typical manifestations. Possession of occult objects is sin; the scriptures are very clear on our obligation to totally destroy everything idolatrous. 

My son who is a missionary in Chad was part of a fetish-burning held by the church for new converts. Some fetishes made of burnable materials, when thrown into a fire, would not burn. They remained intact. It was only after the church prayed over them to rid them of the spirits that they burned.


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## Pergamum

We burn fetishes here too and it is often a symbol of the new beleiversdedication. LIek in Acts, where they burned their witchcraft books.

But the burning is not for the purpose of destroying evil powers, but as part of a breaking with a sinful past.

All of our efforts to fight demons should not address demons but address God and let him do the rest. As Rev Winzer says above, we give people what could be called a "truth encounter" and we would not always be talking directly to demons or looking for demonstrations of power - the truth and prayer seems to be the esential weapons.

I have many "artifacts" and none of these "contain" demons to my knowledge and I do not fear these things made of wood and metal.


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## Leslie

I assume you are a WASP-kind of person. If so, you were raised in a western culture and have a western excluded-middle worldview, albeit somewhat modified by your circumstances. This includes lack of discernment as regards the spirit world. I was there too and still am to a considerable extent. Those with discernment, possibly western children but certainly those raised in animistic cultures, can tell the difference between an artifact with spirits and those without. Some artifacts have spirits associated and some do not. You cannot tell the difference, nor can I (usually).

How secret is your artifact collection? If an animist should know of its presence or see it, is this not "eating meat offered to idols"? It would be "evident" (though false) that you are, like any good animist, adding local deities to your own, personal Jesus-deity in order to hedge your bets and get better luck than with one deity alone. The more "gods" the better!! 

In my view the essential difference between true Christianity and animism is that in animism (be it with another religious veneer, including health-and-wealth Pentecostalism) the basic attitude to religion is manipulating the supernatural for one's own personal advantage. In true Christianity, one's basic attitude is submission to God for God's personal advantage, namely His glory. 

Does this make sense?


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## sekacavelle

where did you get all this advice of what to do and not to do in either taking the charm of or burning it. Who gave you the formular how to deal with the demon in that person. Your actions are not backed by scripture i would personnally question your actions in that excorsism. Unless your actions are clearly defined by scripture then your actions are culpable to satanic influences dont forget that this can also be witchcraft which used also appeases demons too and effects the remedial effects of stopping demonic attacks but salvation is not delivered by these concoctions. There is no human being that can perform a rite to influence the Holy Spirit to indwell a person. As far as i know in scripture we are to pettission god continually perhaps he will hear and grant salvation within the scope of predestination and the Gospel as the reformed position is.


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## py3ak

This has been an interesting thread. It seems that there are two views regarding the power of demons. One is that their power is based on deception, their basic strategy is to deceive. Another holds that they have power in more objective ways. Anecdotal evidence at times seems to support one view, at times seems to support the other. I thought the terminology of an "excluded middle" was very helpful, and applied to a lot of the Enlightenment thinking that seems to be popular even among Reformed Christians. But I wonder if characterizing those who hold to the first view, that all demonic power is based on deception as "excluding the middle" is altogether accurate. If all demonic activity is deceptive, it makes sense that one of the things the demons would deceive about is precisely the nature and scope of their abilities. I think you can illustrate it from temptation. A factor in some temptations to sin is that they seem to come with a feeling of inevitability: "you know you're going to give in eventually, why not now?" If you accept the premise, "you will inevitably give in to temptation" then you usually do; but when you see that this premise is a lie, the temptation loses a lot of its force. So if demons can convince me that they have some sinister powers and bring me into fear, have I not thereby given them a power over me that they would not otherwise have had because I believed their lie?
It seems to me from Ephesians 6 that God has given us two weapons in spiritual warfare: the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, and prayer. And Martyn Lloyd-Jones, who did not exclude the middle, by any means, taught that in dealing with demonized people you had to explain Biblical doctrine, give them an overview of Scriptural teaching on the most prominent doctrines. So it is not by exorcistic rituals, but by meditation on and proclamation of God's word, accompanied with fervent pleas for understanding and faith that demons are vanquished. As we see the truth, their lies lose their force, and they lose their power.


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## Pergamum

Leslie:

I do not exclude the middle, but neither do I want to expand the middle.


All spiritual warfare should be Godward and nothing should be addressed to Satan or focused on the demons. If someone is possessed (which I believe I have seen) then my weapons would be prayer to God and not any speech towards the demons.

Once a fetish is removed from the animistic participant it is nothing but wood or metal and I can keep it as a souvenir or a trophy. The evangelists in my area have broken apart stones used to worship spirits and have bathed in sacred springs. I myself have been cursed, but no ill can come to me.

However, I have heard of nonbelievers dying of curses.

So, I agree with much of what you say. I am not excluding the middle, but also much that passes for spiritual warfare is merely Third World animism that the missionary has gotten infected with. The devil is very active, but is a weak foe.

As for as burning charms go, the book of Acts gives something of a precedent, but they burned these books out of devotion to God, not because any innate power was present in the books. Locals here burn their charms...but I am free to keep them if I desire because I am not tempted to use them and they are nothing to me (just like what Paul says about idols..it is nothing in the world)....


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## Pergamum

The terminology of the "excluded middle" comes from a Paul Hiebert articel (google it).

Leslie, amen to much of what you say about the essence of animism being the effort to manipulate the spiritual powers.


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## Zenas

Pergamum said:


> Also, should we expect that the West should have a rise in these manifestations as it becomes "Post-Christian"?



I doubt this myself. Different tools appear to be used for different societies. Where in one place superstition and witchcraft serve to enslave the culture, in ours, atheism, unbelief, and rampant sin serve the same end.


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## Mushroom

I spent much of my childhood in countries where demonic manifestations were considered common. In those pre-conversion days I had the theory that those things only happened to people who were willing to believe in such things. I didn't, and never saw anything I considered demonic.

My first quasi-christian thought on the subject came at the age of 18, when I saw the movie "The Exorcist". I walked away thinking how idiotic it was that these people would think some ceremony would move God to remove a demon. If He could do it at all, why would the chantings of some priesty-dude move Him to do so more than simple prayer? That may have been my first reformed thought.... why bother yelling incantations at a demon when God was obviously in control of whether they could possess someone or not?

By age 20 I was involved in a very pentecostal/charismatic "deliverance" ministry. They saw a demon behind every rock, and every sin was the product of demonic manifestation. Drug demons, alcohol demons, tobacco demons, perversion demons, vulgarity demons.... on and on. I tried very hard to believe, but saw that my problems with sin had more to do with the wretchedness of my own heart, so eventually walked away from all that.

So what are the facts? I'm not positive, but I guess I still have some of that pre-conversion attitude that these things are a matter of what one is willing to believe. I personally believe that my Redeemer is ultimately in authority of all that exists, even demons, and I have no surplus of time to spend worrying over things that cannot affect me unless He ordains it. When someone says they or someone they know is demon possessed, I tell them the only solution is to believe on the one whom God hath sent. The most hilarious thing I've ever heard is the old "I rebuke you Satan in the name of....". Why talk to the underling? Talk to the Boss.

The devil has no power over the elect of God. He flees before the awful and awesome voice of the Judge of Eternity. All we have to do is resist, _and he flees from us_. Why not tell the unbelievers that? Why not tell them that their superstitions are powerless deceptions, and their fears of demons are unfounded? There is one Whom they should fear, and He is the Lord Sabaoth, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, the Ancient of Days!


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## Pergamum

Brad said:


> I spent much of my childhood in countries where demonic manifestations were considered common. In those pre-conversion days I had the theory that those things only happened to people who were willing to believe in such things. I didn't, and never saw anything I considered demonic.
> 
> My first quasi-christian thought on the subject came at the age of 18, when I saw the movie "The Exorcist". I walked away thinking how idiotic it was that these people would think some ceremony would move God to remove a demon. If He could do it at all, why would the chantings of some priesty-dude move Him to do so more than simple prayer? That may have been my first reformed thought.... why bother yelling incantations at a demon when God was obviously in control of whether they could possess someone or not?
> 
> By age 20 I was involved in a very pentecostal/charismatic "deliverance" ministry. They saw a demon behind every rock, and every sin was the product of demonic manifestation. Drug demons, alcohol demons, tobacco demons, perversion demons, vulgarity demons.... on and on. I tried very hard to believe, but saw that my problems with sin had more to do with the wretchedness of my own heart, so eventually walked away from all that.
> 
> So what are the facts? I'm not positive, but I guess I still have some of that pre-conversion attitude that these things are a matter of what one is willing to believe. I personally believe that my Redeemer is ultimately in authority of all that exists, even demons, and I have no surplus of time to spend worrying over things that cannot affect me unless He ordains it. When someone says they or someone they know is demon possessed, I tell them the only solution is to believe on the one whom God hath sent. The most hilarious thing I've ever heard is the old "I rebuke you Satan in the name of....". Why talk to the underling? Talk to the Boss.
> 
> The devil has no power over the elect of God. He flees before the awful and awesome voice of the Judge of Eternity. All we have to do is resist, _and he flees from us_. Why not tell the unbelievers that? Why not tell them that their superstitions are powerless deceptions, and their fears of demons are unfounded? There is one Whom they should fear, and He is the Lord Sabaoth, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, the Ancient of Days!



I like your quote about talking to the Boss and not underlings.


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## Raj

"The devil has no power over the elect of God. He flees before the awful and awesome voice of the Judge of Eternity. All we have to do is resist, and he flees from us. Why not tell the unbelievers that? Why not tell them that their superstitions are powerless deceptions, and their fears of demons are unfounded? There is one Whom they should fear, and He is the Lord Sabaoth, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, the Ancient of Days!"

This reminds of me of my story. Along with eternal life in Christ, this point also helped to seek refuge in God of Bible and be secure forever.


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## Leslie

People differ in their vulnerability to evil spirits as well as in their ability or inability to discern their presence. Believing that one is immune from evil spirit influence makes one more prone to being affected by a curse. This is from the mouth of a Burmese animist who witnessed my being cursed, the subsequent illness, and final deliverance. He and I discussed it at length. 

Christians per se are not immune. Christians who know about the phenomena and access the power of God can deflect a curse. I am vulnerable. My husband is not vulnerable. He can be in the presence of occult ritual and remain unaffected. 

It grieves me to hear PB brothers, some of whom are pastors, treating the evil spirit world in a cavalier manner. Demonization, curses, and the like occur in the states. Go into any large bookstore, into the teen section, and you can find books about how to put a hex on someone. There are, in many (not all) cases real effects. My daughter, who is a school psychologist, deals with this. She takes a dim view of evangelicals, maintaining (with some grounds) that it's only the evangelicals who deny the reality of the middle storey, who don't believe the worldview of the Bible that they love. The New Agers all realize this stuff is real. Christian teenagers are caught in the middle. They cannot talk to their pastors who dismiss the reality of the evil spirit world (for fear of being labeled as schizophrenic or worse), they suffer with curses from New Agers, and are prevented by conscience from seeking occult solutions to their problems. When I stick my neck out and talk about my experiences with the occult, people come out of the woodwork, just dying to tell me of their experiences that they've suffered with in silence. As the occult trend increases in the states and pastors continue to embrace an excluded-middle worldview as non-learners, they will lose their teens to the charismatics and the occultists.


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## Mushroom

Leslie said:


> People differ in their vulnerability to evil spirits as well as in their ability or inability to discern their presence. Believing that one is immune from evil spirit influence makes one more prone to being affected by a curse. This is from the mouth of a Burmese animist who witnessed my being cursed, the subsequent illness, and final deliverance. He and I discussed it at length.
> 
> Christians per se are not immune. Christians who know about the phenomena and access the power of God can deflect a curse. I am vulnerable. My husband is not vulnerable. He can be in the presence of occult ritual and remain unaffected.
> 
> It grieves me to hear PB brothers, some of whom are pastors, treating the evil spirit world in a cavalier manner. Demonization, curses, and the like occur in the states. Go into any large bookstore, into the teen section, and you can find books about how to put a hex on someone. There are, in many (not all) cases real effects. My daughter, who is a school psychologist, deals with this. She takes a dim view of evangelicals, maintaining (with some grounds) that it's only the evangelicals who deny the reality of the middle storey, who don't believe the worldview of the Bible that they love. The New Agers all realize this stuff is real. Christian teenagers are caught in the middle. They cannot talk to their pastors who dismiss the reality of the evil spirit world (for fear of being labeled as schizophrenic or worse), they suffer with curses from New Agers, and are prevented by conscience from seeking occult solutions to their problems. When I stick my neck out and talk about my experiences with the occult, people come out of the woodwork, just dying to tell me of their experiences that they've suffered with in silence. As the occult trend increases in the states and pastors continue to embrace an excluded-middle worldview as non-learners, they will lose their teens to the charismatics and the occultists.


Well, I for one don't consider myself immune from evil spirit influence, but I am not my own, and my Owner *is* immune. In fact, He is ultimately sovereign over whether or not a demon can do anything at all to me or anyone else. Any other view is open theism.

As for "losing our teens", being stubbornly convinced that God keeps all His promises, I trust Him to bless the covenant children He has placed in my care with His protection and providence.

I'm sure there are lots of demons and demonic forces surrounding us in this world, and if that is so, it proves my point.... if they were able to have their way, we would all be dead and none saved. But that is not the case, so obviously God is protecting us from them. And if there are that many demons, there are innumerably more angels of heaven around us as well.... greater is He that is with us than he that is with them.

I'm not saying that demons do not do harm to people. I've known folks that I considered sane and trustworthy who report experiences that were terrifying. But I do consider them to be at least insufficient in their understanding of God's complete sovereignty over all that exists, and if Christians, not yet trusting in His providential protecting love for them at a level that dispels such fears.

There are no "occult solutions" to any problem. That would simply compound wickedness, seeking help from the very source of the problem. We have no allies in the devil's cohort.


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## Pergamum

An alternate explanation is this:

There are demons and there are demonic possessions. 

The Enlightenment made us think not. BUt now Postmodernism is on the rise. And missionaries and Third World Christians from animistic countries still retain a bit of their cultural biases too, such that while some exclude the middle others fall into a Christian animism (especially since the rise of Pentecostalism in the Third World) and expand the middle. 

I.e. those that exclude the supernatural are wrong, but so are those that are superstitious and have allowed animism into their Christianity. Much of the modern spiritual warfare movement is such superstition 


I want to affirm that demonic possessions do seem to occur; but that I distrust most of the accounts becuase the sources seem hyper-sensitive to interpreting phenomena as having a demonic source (i.e. for instance, I have one friend, who is highly gullible, who claims to have lived in not one but 2 haunted houses during her lifetime...however, I have moved more than she and statistically why have I never lived in a haunted house when she has lived in two? Also, statistically, most reports of the demonic come from those who are open to seeing such things.)


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## Leslie

It simply is not true that only those who believe in demonic phenomena are vulnerable. The opposite is true. It was when I embraced an excluded-middle-storey worlview that a classmate put a curse on me, resulting in a life-threatening illness. This illness and the subsequent healing/deliverance changed my worldview, as well as that of my husband. Nothing else would have done so. A Burmese, animist friend explained to me, after the deliverance, that it was my naiveté that made me vulnerable. He told me that the whole tropical medicine class (55 students) knew of the curse except for me and my Norwegian friend; they were laughing at my distress and cluelessness (if that's a word). Now, understanding and identifying problems at an early stage and having a husband who will pray for me makes me much less vulnerable. It has been over 10 years since the last demonic problem.

The reason why it seems that only those who believe in this stuff are vulnerable is that it is only those who believe in it that are willing to talk about it. Others are susceptible but they suffer in silence, fearful, humiliated, and totally alienated from clergy and friends who dismiss the middle storey as superstition. You simply would not believe the numbers of people who come out of the woodwork, wanting to talk of their own suffering, once they have the ear of someone who doesn't write them off as crazy. You (plural) will never hear from these people because they know, before they start, that they will be regarded as unbalanced, gullible, or worse. I myself would never write this stuff either if I had to face any of you in church next Sunday morning. It is only the relative anonymity of the net and my compassion for the afflicted in your congregations that lends the courage to come forth.


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## BobVigneault

Leslie,
I've had quite a bit of direct experience with demons and I don't care how many people want to offer their take on what actually happened. If you can't back up the analysis and remedy with scripture then you are playing according to the demons rules.

Here is an excerpt that I wrote in an earlier thread in which we were discussing this topic:

The story that Shelli told in the original post is very similar to experiences that my family went through. It's definitely not always a matter of schizophrenia, though one of my daughters was treated for that at the time.

When these things happened to us we called in a deliverance ministry and it seemed to be the right thing to do- twice. As I have learned more about God's sovereignty I am convinced that engaging the demons in 'warfare' is the worst thing one can do. Engaging the demons in any way is empowering for them and it causes us to doubt the absolute sovereignty of God.

I have read many, many books on spiritual warfare, I have engaged demons directly and I even thought I was winning at times. As long as a demon can keep you in the battle they win even if you think you're having a positive effect.

Let me give you the most powerful book on fighting demons. It's a book that proves beyond all doubt that demons attack humans, hurt humans physically and mentally, can even destroy a life. The book is called Job and if you study the way Job takes on Satan you will learn the secret to battling the demon. Can you think of the weapon that Job used against Satan? No you can't. Job never mentioned Satan, never spoke TO him, never spoke OF him, never engaged him in any way. You even have to wonder if Job knew there was a devil.

What I missed out on when I was 'fighting' demons is the sovereignty of God. I thought God won some days and Satan won on others and the prayers of the people could sway the battle. Jesus Christ is Lord in the midst of attack. We must go to the scriptures and reaffirm the truth of the Father's sovereignty and Christ's lordship. Never, never, never address the demon. This is praying to a demon. Don't even try and take authority over a demon in Jesus' name. I thought this was working for years but I found out that demons have lots of time to wait. They will let you think you're winning just to keep you in the game.

Jesus has authority over the demon already, God has sovereignty over the situation and the demon is God's agent in revealing your lack of knowledge of God and his salvation. Read specific scriptures and acknowledge God's power in prayer and teach the person who is under attack but don't engage the demon. Don't bother anointing door posts with oil, don't draw blood lines, don't speak to the demon, don't try to learn it's name.

Don't try and build a doctrine of spiritual warfare from the anecdotal battles between Jesus and demons or the apostles and demons. They were uniquely empowered to fight spiritual beings, we are not.

You might say that Ephesians tells us that we wrestle not against flesh and blood. That is true but it only describes that there may be spiritual attack, it doesn't mean we are to try and fight these beings in their realm.

Anyway, there is so much I can write but I quit here for now. Bottom line, don't engage a demon, teach the truth of God's sovereignty to victims of attack.


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## Mushroom

> A Burmese, animist friend explained to me, after the deliverance, that it was my naiveté that made me vulnerable.


Pretty close to what the serpent told Eve, isn't it? I think every animist or diviner or occultist of any stripe would wish that every Christian would believe that.

Sorry, sister, while I sympathize with your plight, I believe Bob's right. Using darkness to battle darkness just leaves everyone involved in the dark, which is the aim of the enemy. Could it be that your experience happened before you had a better understanding of God's sovereignty, and so the demon allowed you to appear to win just to keep you thinking occultic solutions were viable? Or could the animist have simply taken advantage of coincidental circumstances?


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## Leslie

Who's using the powers of darkness to battle demons? When I was ill and delivered it was a matter of a Thai Christian simply praying for me, nothing more. My husband had previously prayed as in "Please make her healthy" with no effect whatsoever. When a Thai Christian explained that the problem was demonic and prayed specifically against the spirits involved, the effect was instantaneous. There were no fireworks, no incantations, no shouting against demons. In some cases it's not that easy. Per the Luke account it took Jesus Himself at least two tries to deliver the Gadarene and He engaged in conversation with the demon. Paul addressed the demon in the girl who was prophesying. So what? 

The Burmese guy in question was a classmate who became interested in Christianity after he saw the power of God evident in my deliverance in response to simple prayer. He had witnessed the curse and my illness and recovery. He was simply saying that I suffered for so long because of not recognizing the illness has having an occult origin. He was suggesting that if I had not had an excluded-middle worldview, I would have recognized the curse earlier and prayed against it before being disabled for a matter of months. What's deceptive or occult about that? He was right.

My problem with stateside churches is that they don't recognize the demonic as a possible source of major problems (not the only source). One hears statements like "It's not demonic, only schizophrenia" (or anorexia nervosa or psychosomatic whatever). That's like saying "It's not staphylococcal pneumonia, he's only short of breath". Staph pneumonia is one cause (amongst others) of shortness of breath. Demons are one cause (possibly amongst others) of schizophrenia and anorexia nervosa. 

An actual, true case in point: A patient I'll call Jenny had anorexia nervosa. She had multiple hospitalizations and treatments and counseling with no effect whatsoever. When some believers talked to her, they discovered that she had a "friend" called Jenny B who lived inside her head and told her what to eat and when. With some great effort, they convinced her to pray to Jesus to make Jenny B leave. She did. Jenny B was then outside of her but still talking to her. With time, and prayer and discipling, she was entirely freed from Jenny B and gaining weight. She again began to menstruate, was perfectly healthy and married a couple years later. There is no way she could have discussed Jenny B with her pastor who dismissed the middle storey as superstition. If she had told him, he likely would not have recognized the demonic nature but would have recommended yet another psych hospitalization. 

I'm traveling in a few hours and off the net for 6 days.


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## Pergamum

Safe travelling and God bless. I'll wait till you come back to re-engage.


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## Pilgrim

Here is something that is worth considering on this issue: 

How I Stopped Being a Reformed Deist


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## sekacavelle

The Bible clearly teaches that witchcraft is a sin and is evil practise. Christ died a true physical death on the cross to defeat a real presence of evil. The workings and power of satan are not imaginaon ry manifestations neither does the Bible teach deception. The word of God is real and without error. So when the Bible describes the workings of evil it is exactly as stated even if one has never witnessed it for themselves. I am horrified that anyone would even think of saying the Bible does not mean what it says. Would God forbid witchcraft that does not exist, would he tell us how in the Last days there will be a false prophet who will cause fire to fall from the heavens using demonic secret powers. What sin of man dares challenge the inerancy of scripture.

Ever since satan rebelled there entered evil into existence. Remember evil is power used in direct conflict to God in whatever way and satan has a lot of it which he still uses today. However we all know that is should that God still remains sovereign over all creation.

The Word preached by the power of the Holy Spirit defeats evil. This is the way of salvation from evil. I see no scriptural evidence instructing us in ritualistic excorsism. Even more dangerous Jesus Christ warned against using his name to exorsise people. Why? Actually when anyone commands an evil spirit to leave a person on the name of Jesus Christ who is God it has to obey, but if the person whom is exorsised is not indwelt with the Holy Spirit that person will be reinhabited by even more evil spirits hence actually that very person will be worse than before in the long run. 

So actually there is no basis for exsorcisms, preach and let Jesus Christ indwell whomever he wants to at his own predestined time. However if there is anyone with Pauls or apostles gift of the Holy Spirit that spoke to them directly audibly then i suppose the Holy Spirit knows exactly when each individual is to be indwelt. However i dont know of any apostles.


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## Pergamum

Sekacavelle:

Yes I am AMAZED at how many references against animism and idolatry exist in the OT, and I always glossed over these passage before becuase I grew up in the Ozarks and never saw anyone bow before a stone before or practice overt animism. Witchcraft is indeed a sin and one in which the Bible is more clear on than many many other issues...


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## sekacavelle

Pergamum: 

Exactly thats why I am amazed that almost everyone here in the west grapple with witchcraft and treat it as if it doesnt exist. So by default they call God the Holy Spirit a teacher of false things and we all know that our greatest sin from the garden was to disbelieve Gods word. Adam was not deceived like Eve and disobeyed knowingly our Mother Eve disbelieved that death will be the result of eating. What I am saying is now the West wants to experience the power of witchcraft to prove Gods word. This is sad as the Bible clearly teaches us that even Solomon was introdroduced into witchcraft by his foreign wives. 

Yes witchcraft may not be profound here in the west but where I come from it is a pandemic and affects our daily Lives. Actually the presence of the Gospel has slowed its devastating effects and the western Law because in the old days we had countless cases of people killing their babies in the practise of witchcraft.

Demonic possession is prevalent here in the west but here they have medical terminology for it like schizophrenia,self harm,alcoholic,stress, the list is enormous but spiritually its just plain demonic possession. These ailments are beyond purely physical nature. In true salvation we witness a gradual change to addiction and mental health problems and generally living less sinful lives. Besides this is sanctification through the new Holy Spirit. And here the whole process is not excorsism but prayer ,worship,preaching and realy actually its the lifestyle of an elect saint.

So It graples my surprise when we have people who say demonic activity is not real and evil witchcraaft activity is an illusion. So then if its not real then Jesus Christ chasing demons and making the deaf with demons speak is an illusion, invariably then even the presence of the Holy Spirit is an illusion. The story of the scorcerer in acts is an illusion and the list goes on.

I dare say I will take the Bible seriously and know that God has saved me from many evil Spirits which roam and inhabit the unsaved. I pray for such to be saved and this is a real prayer to a real god for a real affliction that is on earth. So those who deny these Biblical facts may be blinded by the evil one who blinds them from the truth to believe a lie that evil and satan is a Biblical myth as atheists believe


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## Leslie

One manifestation of evils spirits may be nightmares; I'm not talking about possession but just their presence. My grandson awakened my daughter nights on end with nightmares. She negated my suggestion to pray audibly in his room against evil spirits at bedtime until I pointed out that she did not have many other options and she had nothing to lose. So she did it and that was the end of the problem. It doesn't prove anything but it works and I don't see anything wrong with it.


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## sekacavelle

Leslie the Bible is truth and yes satan will want you to say that nightmares are an illusion. Then if nightmares are an illusion then why bother pray to God about fiction. So if you dont then satan has a free reign of your life even in dreams when u r to rest. I pray myself even when I get sinful dreams coz I know satan has power to influence us using dreams. I pray the Lord teaches me righteousness in dreams. Jesus said that you dont have coz u dont ask. So if u dont ask that satan be stoped from tormentng you which he enjoys then you will suffer, dont ever think satan feels sorry for us. Leslie pray pray and pray again after you have finnished pray again. Remember all the Glory of triumph belongs to God. Bless you my sister we wrestle not flesh and bood but evil in the heavenly realm.


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## Pergamum

If nightmares are demonically induced, then I guess I have been bothered by demons now for the last 4 months when nightmares first became a regular occurrence for me.

But I still don't understand any need to pray AUDIBLY. 

Why? ...so the demons can hear? And what of that? 

I am praying TO God for HIM to do the work. 

In Jude, even the angels did not address Satan did they - but they left that part to God, right?


I affirm the work of Satan, but I do not affirm any need to interact with demons but to only pray to God. Why pray audibly and why even address demons instead of addressing God.


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## Leslie

Pergamum said:


> If nightmares are demonically induced, then I guess I have been bothered by demons now for the last 4 months when nightmares first became a regular occurrence for me.
> 
> But I still don't understand any need to pray AUDIBLY.
> 
> Why? ...so the demons can hear? And what of that?
> 
> I am praying TO God for HIM to do the work.
> 
> In Jude, even the angels did not address Satan did they - but they left that part to God, right?
> 
> 
> I affirm the work of Satan, but I do not affirm any need to interact with demons but to only pray to God. Why pray audibly and why even address demons instead of addressing God.



I don't understand it but I do know that audibly works and silently does not work for me. Also, my husband's praying for me seems to work better than my praying for myself--again I don't understand why. Try it both ways--I'd be interested in someone else's experience. Usually I don't talk about this stuff in polite society but the net makes it easier. It's well outside my comfort zone, given my western, largely scientific education. Another possibility is that your nightmares are the price of your keeping artifacts. In at least one case, getting rid of an artifact (burning it) solved a nightmare problem.


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## BobVigneault

Why is God letting Satan have at you in your dreams?


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## Leslie

BobVigneault said:


> Why is God letting Satan have at you in your dreams?



This is a good question. He hasn't told me. It does appear that some persons are vulnerable to demonic influences and others are less so. 

It seems to me that, as long as one does not use occult means to deal with demonic stuff, it is legitimate to find out what works, analogous to dealing with herbal/natural remedies. If it's not an act of disobedience and it works to take care of a problem, why not?


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## HaigLaw

JDWiseman said:


> I think that too often, especially in Reformed circles, the closing and cessation of special revelation is practically, if not formally, seen to mean the cessation of everything supernatural, or out of the ordinary. But the one does not imply the other, in my opinion.



This is a _very_ important point. In my view, the most miraculous thing that ever happens to any of us is the new birth; and it always amazes me that people who will acknowledge being born again will deny the supernatural in other areas.


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## Leslie

HaigLaw said:


> JDWiseman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think that too often, especially in Reformed circles, the closing and cessation of special revelation is practically, if not formally, seen to mean the cessation of everything supernatural, or out of the ordinary. But the one does not imply the other, in my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a _very_ important point. In my view, the most miraculous thing that ever happens to any of us is the new birth; and it always amazes me that people who will acknowledge being born again will deny the supernatural in other areas.
Click to expand...


This is true. It also seems that in the states where New Age, Harry Potter, and New Paganism are all on the rise, it's the evangelicals (using the term broadly to include Reformed) who are the most adamant about taking an entirely naturalistic view of the world. Which phenomena are caused or impacted by the spirit world and which are not is a legitimate question for debate. One can go overboard either way. I'm aware of one counselor with secular credentials and licensing who deals with this kind of thing with some amazing successes. It would be good if pastors could deal with this. It's the church, not mental health clinics where ministry to the oppressed should be happening.


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## py3ak

Leslie said:


> I don't understand it but I do know that audibly works and silently does not work for me. Also, my husband's praying for me seems to work better than my praying for myself--again I don't understand why. Try it both ways--I'd be interested in someone else's experience. Usually I don't talk about this stuff in polite society but the net makes it easier. It's well outside my comfort zone, given my western, largely scientific education. Another possibility is that your nightmares are the price of your keeping artifacts. In at least one case, getting rid of an artifact (burning it) solved a nightmare problem.



Leslie, I can certainly sympathize with the pressure to do something to get rid of nightmares, as they can be very harrowing. But I've got to admit I'm a little uncomfortable with the language of different methods of prayer "working" more than another. If we remember that prayer is making our requests known to God, it sounds like we think He can be manipulated by unimportant changes --audibly vs. silently, etc. (Was it Rebecca Brown who thought her friend became demon-possessed because she wouldn't kneel to pray?) If we forget that prayer is speaking to God, then of course one thing may have a different psychological impact on us than another (and I don't undervalue the psychological benefit aspect of prayer); but if that's what it primarily is to us, isn't that already a great loss? 

I don't want to pile on when you're obviously dealing with a difficult situation, but do you see why the "works" language with regard to prayer seems inappropriate? Prayer "works" or not according to God's sovereign will.


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## timmopussycat

Pergamum said:


> So, if your church supported a missionary that minsiitered somewhere remote and they begin reporting strange things what would be your first reaction?
> 
> To disbelieve him or believe him? What if he experienced some strange things; how realible is that experience?
> 
> These strange things include:
> 
> -premonitory dreams,
> -Sudden fits of crying done by locals when in the presence of evangelists,
> -reports of locals being demon possessed,
> -reports of locals (several at once) claiming to see spirits.
> -largr groups of people asking for help from evil spirits,
> -refusal to plant or build houses on certain places of land,
> -relocating whole villages to escape the local spirits,
> -refusing to drink out of a clean water stream and drinking instead out of dirty swamp due to the stream being a sacred place.
> -curses that seem to lead to people dying. One evangelist claims that he lost his sight temporarily and another one had his leg swell up after being cursed.
> 
> The existence of these things rests largely on experience, a very faulty piece of equipment.
> 
> Can places be inhabited by spirits (a person is spacially located and can be inhabited it seems, why not a house, or stretch of jungle, etc).



Scripturally, attributing any or all of these things to demonic activity is not ruled out. I might believe demonic involvement in any or all depending on other details in the accounts. Equally I might conclude demonic involvement not necessarily present.



Pergamum said:


> And if these dramatic things are indeed true then why do they not seem to happen in the West?



Two possibilities: either the devil is bound where the gospel is preached to a certain extent or where the gospel is preached he uses more subtle methods. 
Given the decline of Christian faith in Europe and North America it won't surprise me if more overt demonic activity begins to occur. 



Pergamum said:


> And do I really need to "claim" anything in the name of Christ if I am already His.
> 
> Do I even need any extra or special prayers besides the normal means of grace. What is one to do in such cases that extend beyond one's normal spiritual exercises of prayer and bible reading?



This argument can be restated thus: do I really need to pray to God for anything since He has promised to supply all my needs? 

Claiming protection in Christ's name may, in some circumstances, be an ill-thought through application of the biblical truth that we must wrestle in prayer against spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms (Eph. 6), but, in others, it may be the very thing needed. Certainly we must wrestle in prayer against these enemies and we need to be strong in the Lord and clothed in the armour of God to do so.


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## Pergamum

I have sent many "artifacts" to churches and people in the West - am I inadvertantly spreading demonic tools then if these artifacts hold some sort of power in and of themselves? This all sounds a bit animistic to me.


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## HaigLaw

py3ak said:


> I don't want to pile on when you're obviously dealing with a difficult situation, but do you see why the "works" language with regard to prayer seems inappropriate? Prayer "works" or not according to God's sovereign will.



I appreciate the delicateness of this answer -- avoiding overwhelming someone with too much "correctness" who already has overwhelming problems, but still avoiding treating prayer as some kind of gimmick.

But I think some of the answers above reflect a lack of experience in confronting evil. Someone who moves out in faith to confront evil will find empowerment by the Holy Spirit without regard to a lot of precise methodology.

And for those who have no clue what I'm talking about, you might watch the movie _The Exorcist_ to get a feel for the dangers of confronting demons without the indwelling Holy Spirit.


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## BobVigneault

With all due respect David, The Exorcist is the last movie anyone should want to see, especially to learn about confronting demons. That movie, following quickly on the heels of Rosemary's Baby is responsible for this nonsense that demons can out power God and can act outside his will. Don't watch the Exorcist, it is sensational fiction and not reflective of spiritual warfare.



HaigLaw said:


> And for those who have no clue what I'm talking about, you might watch the movie _The Exorcist_ to get a feel for the dangers of confronting demons without the indwelling Holy Spirit.


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## Leslie

Having a no-electricity day today, I was reading Our Father Abraham by Marvin R. Wilson. On page 152, he says something pertinent to one's whole approach; I quote the essence. 
"The Hebrew knew he did not know all the answers. ---He refused to oversystematize or force harmonization on the enigmas of God's truth or the puzzles of the universe.----All things, therefore, did not need to be fully rational. The Hebrew mind was willing to accept the truths taught on both sides of the paradox; it recognized hat mystery and apparent contradictions are often signs of the divine.---Thus we have the natural tendency to impose more rational and systematic categories of thought on the Bible. The Bible, however, tends to reject most carefully worked-out charts and thoroughgoing attemps at schematization. Neither God nor His word may be easily contained in a box for logical or scientific analysis.

We see and acknowledge paradoxes and tensions in other areas of theology--predestination and free will; providence and the efficacy of prayer; salvation by grace and yet one who does not give up all cannot be a disciple; Jesus the prince of peace bringing a sword.

There is likewise paradox/tension in the realm of our understanding of the demonic. The latter chapters of Isaiah sound as if idols are nothing--no mention of demons and yet Paul says that the things Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons. Satan is a defeated foe and yet Paul wrestled with the power of darkness, implying some effort and significant power. The book of Revelation, likewise ascribes significant powers to Satan and his cohorts. What the Bible tells us about the demonic (that they are personal and countable and vary in degree of wickedness, that they desire to indwell people) is true, but it does not give data for a comprehensive, systematic demonology. We can learn some things about the nature of the powers of darkness from our experiences in confronting them as believers.

I'm no expert but do have great respect for those believers who have confronted them in the Spirit and prevailed. One can label them animists, but then so was Jesus. He saw demons behind lameness, blindness, deaf-muteness and a variety of other unspecified conditions--circumstances that most of we Westerners would have understood in naturalistic terms, if we had been there. Paul also in Ephesians 6 saw demons in various places, and the book of Revelation--however one looks at it--is clear that the forces of evil will be or were (for preterists) active in world events. 

Having known some of those with track records in deliverance--getting people out of Satanism, breaking occult and **** addictions and the like, my impression is that there is fair unanimity in considering that inanimate objects can at times be indwelt by evil spirits with negative consequences for the owner. I would never possess an object used for pagan worship. If that makes me a Christian animist, so be it. My goal is to have a balanced view, consistent both with scripture and with the realities of real life in the pagan world. My husband and I have burned more than one object with significant results.

My concern is that in Western culture, including the States, teenagers dabble in paganism quite commonly. Pastors discount their experiences with empty, naturalistic explanations as if naturalistic presuppositions were scriptural. This creates a social, religious, and cultural barrier between teens and their pastors, causing the teens to shut up about their experiences and either suffer in silence or seek answers elsewhere. In a university town setting, when we were forced by circumstances to talk about our encounters with the world of evil, young folks came out of the woodwork, wanting to tell us about this or that experience, always with "No way would I tell Pastor" and pastor in this case was a very congenial, open-minded kind of guy. It wasn't just him. These folk just wanted to be heard and in some cases helped with prayer.


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## Pergamum

I in no way think you are a Christian animist. But I am struggling with these issues as well.


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## HaigLaw

BobVigneault said:


> With all due respect David, The Exorcist is the last movie anyone should want to see, especially to learn about confronting demons. That movie, following quickly on the heels of Rosemary's Baby is responsible for this nonsense that demons can out power God and can act outside his will. Don't watch the Exorcist, it is sensational fiction and not reflective of spiritual warfare.
> 
> 
> 
> HaigLaw said:
> 
> 
> 
> And for those who have no clue what I'm talking about, you might watch the movie _The Exorcist_ to get a feel for the dangers of confronting demons without the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...


Alright, I'll withdraw that advice, but having watched the movie, my take was not "this nonsense that demons can out power God and can act outside his will." Rather, my take was that demons can only successfully be engaged in the power of the Holy Spirit. The Roman Catholics had over centuries developed some liturgy for casting out demons. Which may have "worked" back centuries ago when the priests were born again and indwelt with the Spirit. But in the modern era, all these priests had was the liturgy, and it didn't work. The demons the priests were trying to cast out came into them and caused their deaths. 

In Scripture, Jesus was asked at one point why the disciples had not been successful casting out a demon, and He said that those could only be cast out with fasting and prayer. In other words, the disciples were not sufficiently anointed for that task. The point is -- doing this work is not gimmickry. It's not a matter of using the right ritual. It's not knowing all the right "how to" tricks. So, if you're not sufficiently anointed, I'd agree with Bawb's advice not to confront them. This is not for the faint-hearted. I've participated in deliverance ministry training that at times I felt had become too gimmickry. I suppose the bottom line is -- if God has not called you and sufficiently equipped you for this ministry, don't do it.


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## Leslie

Pergamum said:


> I in no way think you are a Christian animist. But I am struggling with these issues as well.



There are two of us struggling. Christian animist has negative conotations but from a simply objective point of view, it's a label not far off the mark. Animist I take to mean someone who has a lively belief in the realm of evil spirits. Christian precludes one's using some forces of evil to negate other forces of evil. From the looks of your picture, I'm probably old enough to be your mother and have struggled since '86. That doesn't mean, however, that I'm much wiser or have any great answers. It just does my heart good to know that others are also searching along with me.


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## Leslie

py3ak said:


> Leslie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand it but I do know that audibly works and silently does not work for me. Also, my husband's praying for me seems to work better than my praying for myself--again I don't understand why. Try it both ways--I'd be interested in someone else's experience. Usually I don't talk about this stuff in polite society but the net makes it easier. It's well outside my comfort zone, given my western, largely scientific education. Another possibility is that your nightmares are the price of your keeping artifacts. In at least one case, getting rid of an artifact (burning it) solved a nightmare problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leslie, I can certainly sympathize with the pressure to do something to get rid of nightmares, as they can be very harrowing. But I've got to admit I'm a little uncomfortable with the language of different methods of prayer "working" more than another. If we remember that prayer is making our requests known to God, it sounds like we think He can be manipulated by unimportant changes --audibly vs. silently, etc. (Was it Rebecca Brown who thought her friend became demon-possessed because she wouldn't kneel to pray?) If we forget that prayer is speaking to God, then of course one thing may have a different psychological impact on us than another (and I don't undervalue the psychological benefit aspect of prayer); but if that's what it primarily is to us, isn't that already a great loss?
> 
> I don't want to pile on when you're obviously dealing with a difficult situation, but do you see why the "works" language with regard to prayer seems inappropriate? Prayer "works" or not according to God's sovereign will.
Click to expand...


I certainly believe in the sovereignty of God but there is another factor in here also. God can read our thoughts and He knows better than we do how our inner psyches work. Evil spirits do not have that power. It is possible that "works" and "doesn't work" is a matter of the evil spirits "overhearing" what one is saying. There may also be another factor. If your 5 year old son called you into his room to pick up his toys for him, what would your response be? It would likely be "Do it yourself," assuming he was healthy. If the power over evil spirits that Jesus gave the disciples is also our legacy in the current dispensation, then aren't we like the 5 year old? Perhaps God's nonresponse to our prayers is His telling us "Do it yourself--you have the power. Use it." I'm not sure about this, wouldn't want to be dogmatic. The second explanation is one that is common amongst people who deal with demonic oppression. The natural question is then why can't we raise the dead etc. There's no good answer to that. However, everything doesn't have to make sense. There is some evidence from church history that power over demons lasted much longer than other healing powers.


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## Leslie

Pergamum said:


> I have sent many "artifacts" to churches and people in the West - am I inadvertantly spreading demonic tools then if these artifacts hold some sort of power in and of themselves? This all sounds a bit animistic to me.



It would be interesting, if there were quite a number of artifacts and if you knew the dates of arrival of the same, to ascertain if these persons or organizations had unusual problems (of the kinds you describe in your other post) dating from that time. If you find an affirmative answer in some case, it would be interesting thereafter to have someone steal the artifact and burn it without telling anyone (DON'T store it in the furnace room). What happens to the problem(s)?

My son is a missionary in Chad in a remote tribal group. After a batch of conversions, they had a fetish burning ceremony. The new believers all brought their fetishes, all made of combustible materials. When thrown in the fire, however, they did not burn. My son and some others prayed over them to evict the evil spirits and then tried again. They burned. Before that he was accepting of the presence of evil spirits but with misgivings. Seeing this first-hand made him a believer. He told me about this himself, right after it happened.


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## py3ak

I think I do understand where you're coming from, and I didn't mean to imply that you don't think God is sovereign. But I think Ephesians 6 would disallow the 5-year-old analogy. There we certainly are told to be strong --but it is in the Lord. We are given spiritual weapons --a shield (faith), a sword (the word of God) and _praying always with all prayer and supplication_. So that explicit teaching, as well as the general Biblical thrust of _promoting_ absolute dependence on God, would lead me to think that God never says, "do it yourself", for after all Christ already said, "without me ye can do nothing."


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## BobVigneault

Again, we have to remember that demons are very real and are capable of making their presence known. That right there gives them the ability to really frighten someone.

Their great deception is taking a 'trick' and creating leverage with the superstitious folks by causing an illusion of being ALL powerful. What happened in the burning of the fetish trick? They stopped something from burning. THAT'S IT!!!! But that trick is enough to create such fear as to keep an entire village in tow. This is not a battle of spiritual power, it's the exposing of an illusion, a trick.

I can go right now to a small group of three professional illusionists and commission them to create an illusion where I throw an object into the fire and it doesn't burn. Then I say a prayer and throw it in the fire and this time it explodes. They would laugh. They would say, "Give us a challenge!"

Well if three buddies familiar with the mechanics of illusion (chemistry, physics, mechanics and presentation) can do this then why should I fear some creatures you are just a lot smarter and have a lot more experience in illusions and presentation.

I used to live in a house in which the demons would turn the lights on and off during the night and you could hear them walking up and down our stairs. Was my wife frightened? She was terrified and too frightened to tell anyone for fear she'd be thought crazy. Turns out the previous owners left as a result of the 'ghosts'. 

What's happens is our brain says, "Oh my, if they can turn on a light and make me hear footsteps then they will hurt me and do all those things they did to that little girl in The Exorcist." (Most people will tell you the same thing.)

But what did they actually do? They turned a light off and on. They made disembodied footstep sounds. Sure that's creepy but that's not a demonstration of power. It's just part of a presentation to deceive people into distrusting the sovereignty of God and perhaps that's why it is permitted. God tested Jobs trust but Job never blamed a demon and never confronted one either.

I have seen a bleeding bathtub, heard steps, seen lights turn on and off, heard them speak in my head, and the worst, seen my daughters controlled by demons and I still say they are weak. They're strength is in deception and being able to exploit our superstition.


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## sekacavelle

BobVigneault said:


> Why is God letting Satan have at you in your dreams?



Well the question is why does Evil exist. It exists for good. God is righteous and all he does is so. He tests us and refines us using satan and his subjects. Then when we most need God under satans onslaught because God created him and made him more powerful than us, we realise we need a Saviour inevitably we run run run , in all kinds and manner of prayer as Paul taught ,to the Master of the Universe our Father God Almighty.

So I pray silently, sometimes Iget a better response crying out loud like the two deaf guys in the Gospels wanting their sight restored even when people tell you keep quiet. If there is anyone righteous of course lay hands on me i need it. Kneel down, stand and clap to the lord. Throw yourself at his mercy oh well and if u still have not received an answer pray again silently. Remember the woman who kept going to the unjust Judge. What more your Father what good will he hold back from his Children in need and at the onslaught of the devil.

So satan wherever you are the Lord God Almighty is the master of the universe it is he we pray to. Forget the ways evil work in artefacts or whatever. satan has immense power given to him , but we learn Gods righteous works in redemtion of humanity in Christ. IT IS THE WORD LOGOS THAT MATTERS


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## Pergamum

we have fetish burnings here too. 

Usually there is a time of renewed vigor in the faith afterward. Even as one who is suspicious of modern "spiritual warfare" fads, I do admit that I do not believe that God will bless a people who are still hanging onto their talismans. These fetish burnings are to show renewed devotion to God, however, and not to evict any spirits residing in the fetishes...


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## HaigLaw

Yes; no spiritual gimmicks!


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## Leslie

Pergamum said:


> we have fetish burnings here too.
> 
> Usually there is a time of renewed vigor in the faith afterward. Even as one who is suspicious of modern "spiritual warfare" fads, I do admit that I do not believe that God will bless a people who are still hanging onto their talismans. These fetish burnings are to show renewed devotion to God, however, and not to evict any spirits residing in the fetishes...



The fetish burning that I was related was to show devotion to God rather than reliance on evil spirits. The fetishes made of ordinarily-combustible materials would not burn until they were prayed over. Hence it is probable that there was some sort of spiritual reality connected with these fetishes.


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## Leslie

py3ak said:


> I think I do understand where you're coming from, and I didn't mean to imply that you don't think God is sovereign. But I think Ephesians 6 would disallow the 5-year-old analogy. There we certainly are told to be strong --but it is in the Lord. We are given spiritual weapons --a shield (faith), a sword (the word of God) and _praying always with all prayer and supplication_. So that explicit teaching, as well as the general Biblical thrust of _promoting_ absolute dependence on God, would lead me to think that God never says, "do it yourself", for after all Christ already said, "without me ye can do nothing."



Obviously without God we can do nothing but He has given us responsibility and (except for dispensationalists) authority over evil spirits. Ephesians 6 only confirms that our encounters with the forces of evil are, by nature, struggles. 

Do any PB members know of anyone with a fruitful ministry of freeing people from evil spirits (addictions, eating disorders, hallucinations, self-destructive behavior post-traumatic stress disorders and the like) who simply prays to God for the person in question? Have any of you pastors seen people (or even one person) set free in your own ministries with this approach? I've never heard of such but then I've not been around that long. 

All the fruitful ministries in this regard that I've ever seen or heard of are either of the Neil Anderson kind of truth encounter, or else the Peter Wagner kind of direct confrontation. In my situation, national pastors are extremely valuable. They tend to do the direct confrontation.


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## HaigLaw

Leslie said:


> Do any PB members know of anyone with a fruitful ministry of freeing people from evil spirits (addictions, eating disorders, hallucinations, self-destructive behavior post-traumatic stress disorders and the like) who simply prays to God for the person in question? Have any of you pastors seen people (or even one person) set free in your own ministries with this approach? I've never heard of such but then I've not been around that long....



My wife and I have attended some "deliverance training" sessions. Can't say we've seen any really-dramatic healings, but then again, some of those healings are by their nature internal. 

While I respect the warnings some have cited on this thread about dabbling with demons, and so forth, I do have to ask the question -- why wouldn't we expect God to heal such mental-emotional disorders when He sees fit to do so?


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## BobVigneault

I have been involved in some very intense direct encounters. Were they successful? The 'deliverance minister' would say they were. They were dramatic and there were direct effects. The demons even stopped bothering for a few years. I've read all of Anderson's books, and Mark Bubeck's and Timothy Warner (even spoke to him on the phone). 

These are good men who really believe they are helping but really all they are doing is providing a self-consistent model for real and imagined demonic behavior. They provide the superstitions and expectations that the weak demons will use to level 'real' fear over people. They will let you think you are winning. They love it when you blame them for a tendency toward worldliness or fleshy sin. That is the illusion of power. Scripture tells us that we have three enemies, the wold, the flesh and the devil. If you are already given to worldliness and serve the lusts of your flesh then you are exactly the person that 'the roaring lion' is seeking to devour. In that case, God's agent of wrath (the devil) may yet bring about your repentance.

A successful deliverance is an embracing of God's sovereignty and Christ's Lordship and authority and recognizing that demons rely on deception and superstition.







Leslie said:


> py3ak said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think I do understand where you're coming from, and I didn't mean to imply that you don't think God is sovereign. But I think Ephesians 6 would disallow the 5-year-old analogy. There we certainly are told to be strong --but it is in the Lord. We are given spiritual weapons --a shield (faith), a sword (the word of God) and _praying always with all prayer and supplication_. So that explicit teaching, as well as the general Biblical thrust of _promoting_ absolute dependence on God, would lead me to think that God never says, "do it yourself", for after all Christ already said, "without me ye can do nothing."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously without God we can do nothing but He has given us responsibility and (except for dispensationalists) authority over evil spirits. Ephesians 6 only confirms that our encounters with the forces of evil are, by nature, struggles.
> 
> Do any PB members know of anyone with a fruitful ministry of freeing people from evil spirits (addictions, eating disorders, hallucinations, self-destructive behavior post-traumatic stress disorders and the like) who simply prays to God for the person in question? Have any of you pastors seen people (or even one person) set free in your own ministries with this approach? I've never heard of such but then I've not been around that long.
> 
> All the fruitful ministries in this regard that I've ever seen or heard of are either of the Neil Anderson kind of truth encounter, or else the Peter Wagner kind of direct confrontation. In my situation, national pastors are extremely valuable. They tend to do the direct confrontation.
Click to expand...


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## sekacavelle

The Bible teaches that amoungst men there is The Kingdom of God and the kingdom of satan. The True Church which is the Body of Christ is the Kingdom of God. We are baptised into the Church by the Holy Spirit.

Those outside the Church are lead into the way of error and deception and evil by demonic spirits. Those in The Church are lead into the way of truth and eternal life by the Holy Spirit. So The Church washes and cleanses us by the word. So these people that run these excorsisms and the like and not preaching the word of truth I do not know what mandate and from whom they operate. My question is they may themselves be deceived and in the way of error. The Glory of god is manifest in the Church.



HaigLaw said:


> Yes; no spiritual gimmicks!



The Churchs Mandate is to preach The Gospel which is the means for salvation. PREACH PREACH PREACH.

Burning fetishes, laying of hands and exorsims does not bring about salvation. The Lord does heal anyone even the unsaved , we have hospitals ,pshycologists and the like but this is just a relief for both believers and non believers but eternally they profit nothing. So seek the Kingdom of God and all, all, all righteousness will be added. The Church is cleansed from all evil, anorexia,baulimia,mental illnesses,immorality and such evil by the washing and cleansing of the Word of Truth.

So any ministry not preaching The Gospel of Salvation through Sovereign Grace in the Death and Ressurection of Jesus Christ for the elect is vanity. Everything done outside The True Church is a deception and evil and is ultimately Vanity of Vanities.

Yet again Teach the Word



HaigLaw said:


> Yes; no spiritual gimmicks!




When you have preached Christ crucified died and was buried and Rose up on the third day according to the scriptures then


HaigLaw said:


> Yes; no spiritual gimmicks!



Teach Christ Crucified again and again.


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## py3ak

Faith (our shield) is opposed to fear.
Truth (our sword) is opposed to error.
Prayer is opposed to self-reliance. 

So if we believe the truth, and preach the truth, and pray for God's blessings upon the truth to us and to the audience, it seems that this is the spiritual warfare. But that is the ministry of the church, not a particular "deliverance ministry".


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## sekacavelle

py3ak said:


> Faith (our shield) is opposed to fear.
> Truth (our sword) is opposed to error.
> Prayer is opposed to self-reliance.
> 
> So if we believe the truth, and preach the truth, and pray for God's blessings upon the truth to us and to the audience, it seems that this is the spiritual warfare. But that is the ministry of the church, not a particular "deliverance ministry".



My brother Blessed be the Lord for this is the full council of God. His Glory manifested in The Body of Christ through his word and reprobation outside the Church.

It baffles me these deliverance ministries who know nothing of Gods Sovereign act in election and reprobation. How can you grant deliverance to reprobates. How can you excorsise the reprobate. I can preach to a reprobate and the onus is on them to accept Christ and if they dont then its up to God to deliver judgment. Even if you burn all the fetishes and killed all the witches and wizards amoungst the reprobate they still will not be believers nor remain in the faith. No amount of purging of idol worship in Isreal in the Old Testament ever brought about true faith. This is solely the work of The Holy Spirit.

So I am not supposing we pin point reprobates but rather PREACH the word and let the chips fall where they may and pin point those who take up the cross so we can be built up in The True body of Christ.

Thanks my brother for your insightful forite.


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