# A Question for Christians who Disagree the RPW



## YXU (Oct 28, 2008)

Do you think it is sinnful and dishonoring God for jokes, laughing and other unnessessary material to flourish the worship of God.

To my observation, such things are flourishing among all the fundamentalists churches, people are talking about pastor's hobby, his wife's cooking ability, his children's various stories, the guest's exciting experience in Saturday and so forth in a Sabbath day worship. They even dare to put unnessassary material into sermons. 

I used to attend a fundamentalist presbyterian church here in Greenville, such thing even exists in the broader sense reformed cycle, minister makes people laugh with jokes, things like my hobby is hunting and thinking about hunting, hunting experience, golf are regularly heard in Sabbath school, introduction to a sermon or in reading of the annoucements.

For those Chrisitans who don't agree with RPW, can you provide scripture to justify that. (i.e. jokes, reading of annoucements, telling stories about personal weekend adventures and so no). It came to my mind someday when I was reading Lev. X, I don't know what will happen if a priest come to the temple of God saying my hobby is hunting and thinking about hunting in the temple of God.


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## panta dokimazete (Oct 28, 2008)

My brother - I would be greatly surprised if you found anyone on this board that disagreed with the RPW, but miracles happen every day


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## YXU (Oct 28, 2008)

panta dokimazete said:


> My brother - I would be greatly surprised if you found anyone on this board that disagreed with the RPW, but miracles happen every day



My brother, if a man agrees with musical instruments in the worship of God and uninspired songs as well as those jokes, I believe he agrees with another "RPW".

Most presybterian churches agree with the WCF and Catechisms, but is it real?


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## toddpedlar (Oct 28, 2008)

Now I don't go in for humorous introductions or personal anecdotes as part of a sermon, but I have to ask you, YX, what version of the RPW do you hold to in order to say that sermons cannot begin with a personal anecdote that illustrates or introduces a point the pastor wishes to make? Where is the content and delivery of sermons regulated?


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## YXU (Oct 28, 2008)

toddpedlar said:


> Now I don't go in for humorous introductions or personal anecdotes as part of a sermon, but I have to ask you, YX, what version of the RPW do you hold to in order to say that sermons cannot begin with a personal anecdote that illustrates or introduces a point the pastor wishes to make? Where is the content and delivery of sermons regulated?



Sir,

I mean unnessassary material in the introduction of a sermon which is not associated with the purpose at all. Those things are set up to warm up the environment to my knowledge, a joke in the begining would be a good example. Nessassary examples definitely are good but should be solemn as well.


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## Herald (Oct 28, 2008)

YXU said:


> panta dokimazete said:
> 
> 
> > My brother - I would be greatly surprised if you found anyone on this board that disagreed with the RPW, but miracles happen every day
> ...



Not everyone on the PB is Presbyterian.


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## MW (Oct 28, 2008)

I wrote a poem on the comedian; perhaps it will show why comedy should not be used in the worship of God.



> THE COMEDIAN.
> 
> Comedian, take centre stage
> and stand as judge, by your crude art,
> ...


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## toddpedlar (Oct 28, 2008)

YXU said:


> toddpedlar said:
> 
> 
> > Now I don't go in for humorous introductions or personal anecdotes as part of a sermon, but I have to ask you, YX, what version of the RPW do you hold to in order to say that sermons cannot begin with a personal anecdote that illustrates or introduces a point the pastor wishes to make? Where is the content and delivery of sermons regulated?
> ...




My point is that I don't think it's an RPW issue - there are other issues of propriety that bear on whether one should do such a thing in a sermon.


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## YXU (Oct 28, 2008)

toddpedlar said:


> YXU said:
> 
> 
> > toddpedlar said:
> ...




Sir,

I believe it is a RPW issue, some Christians in our church have argued that even we sing psalms which looks great, but we still fall short in a lot of aspects, when we sing, we don't sing with understanding and focus on God, our mind has other things in it, mothers spend too much of their attention to the babies instead of the worship service and so forth (except the nessessary care). I believe that is the scope of RPW found in the Larger Catechism about those things we do inwardly. We as sinnful man desparately needs the grace and mercy of God.

The reason I raised this issue is that, I came from China, although the Church of China is totally liberal, but on one dare to tell a joke in church and believers know that worshipping God is a solemn worship. I was shocked when I came to America and see what many churches are doing, I was so sad and sometimes even had tears when the whole worship of God is full of human entertainment and continuous laughing.


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## Herald (Oct 28, 2008)

YX,

For your edification I have attached a commentary on the RPW by the Association of Reformed Baptists. I know you are Presbyterian, but there are differing opinions on the content and scope of the RPW.


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## calgal (Oct 28, 2008)

Is it wrong to tell personal stories about experiences that illustrate a scripture? How or why is that against the RPW?


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## YXU (Oct 28, 2008)

calgal said:


> Is it wrong to tell personal stories about experiences that illustrate a scripture? How or why is that against the RPW?



It is wrong to tell personal adventures that are not neccassary to the sermon.
I believe it is good to use experience to illustrate the sermon as long as it is proper and solemn, I apologize if I have not stated it clear.


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## YXU (Oct 28, 2008)

North Jersey Baptist said:


> YX,
> 
> For your edification I have attached a commentary on the RPW by the Association of Reformed Baptists. I know you are Presbyterian, but there are differing opinions on the content and scope of the RPW.



Thank you sir, I will read into that. I have a question, are you giving me this file to justify those practises or just to give an introduction about the RPW of your church?


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## calgal (Oct 28, 2008)

YXU said:


> calgal said:
> 
> 
> > Is it wrong to tell personal stories about experiences that illustrate a scripture? How or why is that against the RPW?
> ...



What do you consider necessary? And you did not answer the question: how is using a story against the RPW?


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## Herald (Oct 28, 2008)

YXU said:


> North Jersey Baptist said:
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> > YX,
> ...



YX, I provided this document to give you perspective on a Reformed Baptist view of the RPW. This is not limited to just my church.


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## fredtgreco (Oct 28, 2008)

XY,

I believe that humor can be useful in illustrating a point. Scripture itself has examples of that:



> And at noon Elijah mocked them, saying, "Cry aloud, for he is a god. Either he is musing, or he is relieving himself, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened." (1 Kings 18:27)



But I do not think you mean that; am I right? You are talking about disconnected "jokes" used completely apart from the context as a "good story" or as Sinclair Ferguson said last week, "an illustration looking to find a text," right?

If so, I would agree that is not appropriate, but I don't think so as a matter of the RPW (strictly speaking), it is rather a matter of mishandling the Word of God preached.

Does that make sense?


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## YXU (Oct 28, 2008)

fredtgreco said:


> XY,
> 
> I believe that humor can be useful in illustrating a point. Scripture itself has examples of that:
> 
> ...


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## Kim G (Oct 29, 2008)

At Bob Jones University, we frequently heard long jokes with no point in the sermons at chapel and on Sunday mornings. I remember one Sunday when I had been struggling with feeling depressed. The Sunday morning service on campus (which I was required to attend) began as such a blessing to me. We sang some of my favorite, most encouraging hymns. My heart was beginning to rejoice. Then Dr. Bob III came to the pulpit and told a few very offensive French-bashing jokes that someone had emailed him before starting his message. I sat and cried through the whole message because my heart was yearning for spiritual meat, and I was fed secular garbage.

I think a well-pointed illustration in a sermon does much good. But joking just for the sake of "getting a laugh" is not appropriate.


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## Ex Nihilo (Oct 29, 2008)

Kim G said:


> At Bob Jones University, we frequently heard long jokes with no point in the sermons at chapel and on Sunday mornings. I remember one Sunday when I had been struggling with feeling depressed. The Sunday morning service on campus (which I was required to attend) began as such a blessing to me. We sang some of my favorite, most encouraging hymns. My heart was beginning to rejoice. Then Dr. Bob III came to the pulpit and told a few *very offensive French-bashing jokes* that someone had emailed him before starting his message. I sat and cried through the whole message because my heart was yearning for spiritual meat, and I was fed secular garbage.
> 
> I think a well-pointed illustration in a sermon does much good. But joking just for the sake of "getting a laugh" is not appropriate.



I thought as I read this and YXU's original post that sometimes sermon jokes are so specific to one culture -- they assume in their tone that everyone in the congregation shares the same culture. Perhaps I'm taking this a bit too far, but I think this is a problem in itself if it tends to exclude believers from the joke. Imagine if someone who didn't hunt went into a church that loved hunting jokes in the sermon -- the person could easily feel that they weren't part of the culture of that church. Or what if a French Christian had been in that chapel service? 

When people are trying to connect with one another, it is natural to find cultural similarities and unite around that, so I can see why the joking happens. Perhaps some of this kind of joking is inevitable; I'm not suggesting that culture can or should be kept completely out of the worship service. But too much of this kind of thing makes it easy for the congregation to unite around their shared secular culture instead of the gospel.


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## Tim (Oct 29, 2008)

YXU, you have brought up a good point and I fully agree with you that there is so much unnecessary insertion of anecdotes and humor into the worship of the Lord God. To me, you don't even need to believe in the RPW to speak against these things. That's why I liked what you said about China - the people there view worship is far to solemn to include such idle talk. Certainly much of these things violate the RPW, but I think reverence alone would dictate that jokes and anecdotes should be limited, if not totally omitted. 

I'll just add another thing that has bothered me; jokes based on Bible verses. Example: the joke in which the punchline states that baseball is mentioned in the Bible because of the word _beginning_ in Genesis 1 ("in the big inning"). This used to be funny to me; but not anymore because this is God's Holy Word. It is to be treated with reverence.


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## TimV (Oct 29, 2008)

> Or what if a French Christian had been in that chapel service?



That's what struck me about Kim's post. I'd hear the same things at the EV Free church I was at a few months ago, except they weren't quite so over the board. Mostly pushing Huckabee for President and giving back handed insults to other candidates. That drive to make the Republican party the vehicle of God on earth. How dare the French oppose our foreign policies which God Himself has ordained?

I think the answer lies, like everything, in growing the body. When I first became Reformed by at Uni (1983) we invited a guy to preach the Wednesday service. He started the sermon with a joke, as I guess some Arminian seminaries teach. It has something to do with a fly, football players in the audience and the Sugar Bowl. The joke was greeted with complete silence, as we hadn't been used to that sort of flippancy, and afterwards the poor guy came up to me very troubled and apologetic.

If I want a political pep rally or a comedy show I can turn it on at home.


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## Pergamum (Oct 29, 2008)

YXU said:


> calgal said:
> 
> 
> > Is it wrong to tell personal stories about experiences that illustrate a scripture? How or why is that against the RPW?
> ...



Your wording is very subjective. What is necessary and what is unnecessary?

What is proper and solemn?

Jesus used every day objects and stories to illustrate points. A preacher may use experience and even amusing anecdotes to show a truth. This is not mutually exclusive with some subjective sense of decorum you are advancing.

A preacher ought to show a gravitas, and not to make the Word of God a light thing, but this can be done in different ways.


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## biggandyy (Oct 29, 2008)

In our congregation it is called "Chasing a Rabbit" and our pastor is very good at derailing his own sermons in order to chase those pet peeves of his, whether it be the evils of alcohol consumption, gambling, not showing up to Sunday Evening Service, Catholic bashing, etc.

Granted all those topics do require attention, even attention from the pulpit when the sermon warrants. But in the middle of his preaching if he mentions the word, say "wine", he immediately qualifies that he is in no way condoning drinking alcohol etc, etc, etc. Of if he is using an anecdote to illustrate the scriptural doctrine in application if he mentions the word "gambling" out comes a mini-sermon on the evils of gambling on cue.

Even the times reading directly from scripture are not immune to instances when his entire service is ground to a halt so he can ride his hobby horse. I have not previously been exposed to the RPW but I am reading it with great care. As an Independent Baptist congregation we are hard pressed to accept ANYTHING regulative, and me being a Reformed Baptist there is sometimes friction. But in gentleness and a sincere desire to make the worship of our Lord more pleasing to Him I will bring to our pastor this information.

Thank you all for this topic and discussion.


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## YXU (Oct 29, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> YXU said:
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> > calgal said:
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Sir,

Such wording are often used in the WCF. I mean if someone joked about BBQ and sausage so that everyone is high, then he preached on union with Christ is an example. Unnessessary to me means totally unrelated to the theme of the sermon, I believe everyone understand that. 

Good examples serve to help believers to understand, bad examples serve to create entertainment. The light of nature reveals to us what is solemn and proper, when the message is to let us mourn about our sins, and to seek God's mercy, making people laugh with jokes in the beginning is not solemn and proper. 

A good practise is the living faith of the dead, a bad practise is the dead faith of the living.


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## Kim G (Oct 29, 2008)

Ex Nihilo said:


> Or what if a French Christian had been in that chapel service?


 They were. I knew of a few students from France who would have been sitting in that service. 

We also often heard jokes bashing democrats, catholics, enviromentalists, evangelical Christians, etc. And they weren't off-the-cuff jokes. Preachers would actually bring print-outs of junk from their email accounts and read the jokes (sometimes really old and no-longer-funny jokes) before their message.


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## Curt (Oct 29, 2008)

I agree that illustrative stories and comments should be germane to the Biblical text being preached. I do not see, however, the need for constant solemnity. I, for one, am glad - even happy - that God chose me and that I have a Gospel to preach.


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