# Sermons w/ presentations: Element or circumstance?



## dalecosby (Sep 7, 2007)

Do you use Power Point or other presentations for sermons?
Do you consider that to merely be a "circumstance" of worship?

I personally can't see how the medium is wrong. It is no different than paper, just cheaper.
That said, it should have nothing that we would not print out and hand out on paper.
We do use it (Apple Keynote actually) at our church but it is just pretty plain to replace printed notes that we would hand out.


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## Coram Deo (Sep 7, 2007)

I vote never.....

I believe they are a unneeded circumstance of worship.... We don't need them for song and we don't need them for the sermon..... Circumstances are things that are needed for common human use by the light of nature.. Pews or Chairs since humans can not stand for long periods, etc... Lights since we humans need to see the text in our bibles and see the preacher, etc....

For 2000 years the church did not need presentations for sermons or songs and we do not need them now... Plus they are a distraction for people.. I know they are for me....



dalecosby said:


> Do you use Power Point or other presentations for sermons?
> Do you consider that to merely be a "circumstance" of worship?
> 
> I personally can't see how to medium is wrong. It is no different than paper, just cheaper.
> ...


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## Coram Deo (Sep 7, 2007)

Also for Announcements.... I do not think they should be in worship... Our churches have never had announcements at the beginning of worship unless it was a quick "Someone left their car lights on" emergency issue.....

Hand out a paper with the announcements on them or have a board outside in the hallway with the announcements on them.. People can read and if they don't wont to it is their fault.... I can't stand announcement time before the service... I am trying to prepare my heart and soul in silence with prayer or scripture reading and announcements are a distraction and unneeded.....


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## dalecosby (Sep 7, 2007)

> For 2000 years the church did not need presentations for sermons or songs and we do not need them now...


And for 1500 years they did not have printing presses.
Do you use scrolls instead?

I believe they are not required (neither are electric lights but we went to those over 100 years ago)


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## Southern Presbyterian (Sep 7, 2007)

I voted "Never" also. Paul did not need Power-Point to declare to the Galatians (Gal. 1:3) that Christ had been publicly portrayed as crucified before their eyes. How? Through the faithful preaching of the Gospel, not through an audio visual presentation.


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## MW (Sep 7, 2007)

Extemporaneous preachers might find that medium quite difficult to use.


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## panta dokimazete (Sep 7, 2007)

armourbearer said:


> Extemporaneous preachers might find that medium quite difficult to use.



Do you frequently preach extemporaneously?

If so, wow...


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## MW (Sep 7, 2007)

jdlongmire said:


> armourbearer said:
> 
> 
> > Extemporaneous preachers might find that medium quite difficult to use.
> ...



According to the standard reformed homiletical works I've read, preaching reaches its biblical ideal when delivered extemporaneously.


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## panta dokimazete (Sep 7, 2007)

armourbearer said:


> jdlongmire said:
> 
> 
> > armourbearer said:
> ...



certainly don't disagree...and food for thought...


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## larryjf (Sep 7, 2007)

I would say that although they are a circumstance, they are a distracting one, and so should be avoided.


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## matthew11v25 (Sep 8, 2007)

dalecosby said:


> > For 2000 years the church did not need presentations for sermons or songs and we do not need them now...
> 
> 
> And for 1500 years they did not have printing presses.
> ...




I agree. I believe it is a circumstance. It is one possible medium for content found in a worship program or hymnal (atleast this is what I would use it for). I know many people that prefer one over the other, and I have been in churches that use both and I prefer the power point for practical reasons when available (although both systems have their positives and negatives).i.e. It eliminates the need for constantly printing and sometimes re-printing bulletins (changes can be made instantly and saves paper). hymns can be added onto powerpoint (even with the music) which is very portable if the church has retreats.


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## dalecosby (Sep 8, 2007)

> Through the faithful preaching of the Gospel, not through an audio visual presentation.


I am not talking about AV presentations. I am just talking about the electronic replacement of printing paper.


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## Semper Fidelis (Sep 8, 2007)

dalecosby said:


> Do you use Power Point or other presentations for sermons?
> Do you consider that to merely be a "circumstance" of worship?
> 
> I personally can't see how the medium is wrong. It is no different than paper, just cheaper.
> ...



I think the main problem here would be Power Point itself. This is a Microsoft product and, as is commonly accepted, Microsoft is the root of all evil. Or is it the love of Microsoft that is the root of all evil?

Seriously, this is actually not a bad question. I guess I find so much use of Powerpoint to be more of a "...look at us we're hip..." kind of thing. As a circumstance to aid the preaching, I don't see how one could argue that it is any more disallowed than amplified speech is by the use of a microphone. If someone forgot to bring a Bible to Church then there is nothing inherently wrong with digitally or actually writing the Words of God upon a wall so that others can read it.


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## NaphtaliPress (Sep 8, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> If someone forgot to bring a Bible to Church then there is nothing inherently wrong with digitally or actually writing the Words of God upon a wall so that others can read it.


Mmmh. I don't know: like birthday celebrations, how many instances of handwriting on the wall turned out well in Scripture.


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## Semper Fidelis (Sep 8, 2007)

NaphtaliPress said:


> SemperFideles said:
> 
> 
> > If someone forgot to bring a Bible to Church then there is nothing inherently wrong with digitally or actually writing the Words of God upon a wall so that others can read it.
> ...



 You're killing me!


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## Semper Fidelis (Sep 8, 2007)

Incidentally, there was a time when I actually used to bring my PocketPC to Church and read Scripture from the device to follow along as the preacher read it aloud. Assuming it is not distracting to others around me, it was just another medium for the text.


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## fredtgreco (Sep 8, 2007)

I think it is a cricumstance. I don't see how it could possibly be an "element" unless hymnals, Bibles, etc were as well. Having said that, there are helpful and not helpful circumstances (e.g. too much light, too hot temperature, inopportune times for worship, etc). That is what the discussion should be about.

How would a sermon outline printed in the bulletin be _substantially_ different from a screen with the outline on it (assuming the same type of medium, i.e. no "wooshing" graphics, images, etc.) ?

I also don't believe that extemporaneous preaching is the standard. It tends to be disorganized, repetitive and not as effective as a well thought out and planned sermon. That does not mean that a sermon needs to be read or prepared word by word, but I think a good sturdy outline is the place to begin.


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## dalecosby (Sep 8, 2007)

> I also don't believe that extemporaneous preaching is the standard. It tends to be disorganized, repetitive and not as effective as a well thought out and planned sermon. That does not mean that a sermon needs to be read or prepared word by word, but I think a good sturdy outline is the place to begin.


Sermons with presentations are much less extemoraneous than they are otherwise.
It seems to be as much of a help to the pastor as to the people.
Of course that might vary by person.


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## dalecosby (Sep 8, 2007)

> I think the main problem here would be Power Point itself. This is a Microsoft product and, as is commonly accepted, Microsoft is the root of all evil. Or is it the love of Microsoft that is the root of all evil?


Yes, a very important point  
We might use OpenOffice Impress in a pinch. But PowerPoint of course is evil! 

Just kidding!


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## SRoper (Sep 8, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> I guess I find so much use of Powerpoint to be more of a "...look at us we're hip..." kind of thing.



Powerpoint has all the hipness of a board meeting.


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## Herald (Sep 8, 2007)

I hate...I mean *HATE* Power Point. But my disdain is more out of preference than some exegetical argument that would prevent its use. I'm not prepared to say that all forms of media are to be avoided in worship. Content is important, as is doing all things decently and in order.


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## fredtgreco (Sep 8, 2007)

dalecosby said:


> > I also don't believe that extemporaneous preaching is the standard. It tends to be disorganized, repetitive and not as effective as a well thought out and planned sermon. That does not mean that a sermon needs to be read or prepared word by word, but I think a good sturdy outline is the place to begin.
> 
> 
> Sermons with presentations are much less extemoraneous than they are otherwise.
> ...



That is not to say that the preacher should not have freedom to be extemporaneous in his application and explication of his outline. My outlines (that I give out) are _intentionally _not
detailed. But I have uniformly been informed that they are a big help to note taking. And perhaps the most encouragement I have gotten from preachers, elders, seminary profs and laymen is that my sermons are well organized and easy to follow. That comes from years of listening to sermons in the pew, and being blessed by well thought out preaching, and not by rambling, incoherent preaching.

Since attachments still don't work, here is a link:
Sermon Outline


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## AV1611 (Sep 9, 2007)

Never


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## KMK (Sep 9, 2007)

This whole conversation is to vague for me. The answer depends on so many things.

What is being presented?
What is the reason for a projection?
Could that $$$ be spent more wisely elsewhere?

The one thing that I have noticed is that the more electronic gadgets you incorporatede into the service, the more potential headaches their are. (The electron is not to be trusted)


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## MW (Sep 9, 2007)

fredtgreco said:


> I also don't believe that extemporaneous preaching is the standard. It tends to be disorganized, repetitive and not as effective as a well thought out and planned sermon. That does not mean that a sermon needs to be read or prepared word by word, but I think a good sturdy outline is the place to begin.



Extemporaneous preaching should always be thought out, planned, and structured.


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## Kevin (Sep 12, 2007)

armourbearer said:


> fredtgreco said:
> 
> 
> > I also don't believe that extemporaneous preaching is the standard. It tends to be disorganized, repetitive and not as effective as a well thought out and planned sermon. That does not mean that a sermon needs to be read or prepared word by word, but I think a good sturdy outline is the place to begin.
> ...





That is a great definition!

I will quote it.


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## Puritan Sailor (Sep 12, 2007)

KMK said:


> (The electron is not to be trusted)




It's all nice until the power goes out. The question then is, are you able to have church without electricity? If not, then we are in trouble.


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## Ivan (Sep 12, 2007)

Puritan Sailor said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> > (The electron is not to be trusted)
> ...



And why wouldn't we be able to have church without electricity? For most of its history the church did without it. I believe Jonathan Edwards preached _Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God _by candlelight!


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## Calvibaptist (Sep 12, 2007)

KMK said:


> The one thing that I have noticed is that the more electronic gadgets you incorporatede into the service, the more potential headaches their are. (The electron is not to be trusted)



We used to use Power Point for all our service needs. We used it to display the announcements before the service so we could avoid having to take worship time for that. We displayed the words to the songs (we sang the 7-11 choruses) and I would put notes for my sermon in them. We also displayed the texts we were reading during the service in case anyone didn't have a Bible.

Being that I am the only employee in the church, I found that I was spending about 3 hours creating presentations for the worship service. And inevitably, there was a missing verse to a song, or one of the items would be out of order. So, you have the person running the presentation looking like a deer caught in the headlights, every one in the congregation snickering because something is obviously missing, and Bill Brown rolling his eyes again because he hates...I mean *hates* Power Point.

I finally, one week, took down the screen, put the projector back in the box, and went back to printing everything in the bulletin. We haven't missed it a bit.

Incidentally, we don't have hymnals, but print all the hymns in the bulletin. (Legally, of course). This is because we used to meet in a school and were not about to cart around 20 boxes of hymnals every week. Now that we meet in an office park, we can't afford to buy hymnals.

BTW, I am the lone "none of the above." I don't hate...I mean *hate* Power Point like Beel, but I find it unnecessary and even annoying at times, even though I don't see anything necessarily wrong with it if used properly.


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## Puritan Sailor (Sep 12, 2007)

Ivan said:


> Puritan Sailor said:
> 
> 
> > KMK said:
> ...



I agree. We should be able to. And most reformed churches today probably could. But many churches today would have a hard time having worship without electricity. No one could hear the electric guitar or read the lyrics on the screen. Many worship songs/choruses require musical interludes and transitions which are awkward to sing without instruments, no mic for the pastor etc.


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## elnwood (Sep 12, 2007)

thunaer said:


> I vote never.....
> 
> I believe they are a unneeded circumstance of worship.... We don't need them for song and we don't need them for the sermon..... Circumstances are things that are needed for common human use by the light of nature.. Pews or Chairs since humans can not stand for long periods, etc... Lights since we humans need to see the text in our bibles and see the preacher, etc....
> 
> For 2000 years the church did not need presentations for sermons or songs and we do not need them now... Plus they are a distraction for people.. I know they are for me....



For 2000 years the Orthodox Church hasn't needed chairs or pews either, and their services can go pretty long.


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