# Should flags be placed in the sanctuary?



## jawyman (Jul 10, 2010)

I found this to be a very interesting question posted on the OPC website. See link Q and A read the answer, but I am looking for other's opinions. I just found it interesting especially in light of the other posts regarding nationalism and fourth of july sermons.


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## Herald (Jul 10, 2010)

The sanctuary is a place of worship of God alone. It is not the place for an American flag; at least not during worship.


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## jawyman (Jul 10, 2010)

Herald said:


> The sanctuary is a place of worship of God alone. It is not the place for an American flag; at least not during worship.


 
Bill, are you saying that so long as there is not a worship service going on the flag would acceptable?


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## MLCOPE2 (Jul 10, 2010)

Only if it's one of these:


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## jawyman (Jul 10, 2010)

I just wanted to know what others think. I grew Lutheran and there was always an American flag and the Christian flag in the sanctuary. I am just curious.


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## Herald (Jul 10, 2010)

jawyman said:


> Herald said:
> 
> 
> > The sanctuary is a place of worship of God alone. It is not the place for an American flag; at least not during worship.
> ...


 
Yes. The sanctuary is nothing but a room. It is not the Holy of Holies of the OT. Now, is it expedient and prudent? That's another question.


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## ClayPot (Jul 10, 2010)

Christianity is not an American religion and bringing a national flag into a worship service divides brothers and sisters who worship together. I am thankful that I live in America, but when our brothers and sisters from the Czech republic worship with us, why would they need to look at an American flag?


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## Herald (Jul 10, 2010)

I'm not a fan of any flag or banner. In my humble opinion the central point of focus of the Christian faith is what happened on the cross. The cross is the emblem of our faith. I'm all for tasteful accents in the sanctuary (flowers, decorative trees, complimentary architecture), but that's about it. The only faith related object I would approve would be a plain cross. I know some even disagree with that. That's fine. I would have no difficulty if there wasn't even a cross.


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## raekwon (Jul 10, 2010)

I don't believe that the placement of flags (or any other piece of art -- save supposed pictures of Christ) are necessarily unbiblical or contra-confessional to have in the sanctuary. It's just a room. Nothing necessarily holy about it.

But... I don't see why we'd have them in there (flags, that is).


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## jawyman (Jul 10, 2010)

I greatly appreciate the discussion. Just for the record, I do not support the idea of flags in the sanctuary either. I just want to know what others thinks.


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## Montanablue (Jul 10, 2010)

raekwon said:


> I don't believe that the placement of flags (or any other piece of art -- save supposed pictures of Christ) are necessarily unbiblical or contra-confessional to have in the sanctuary. It's just a room. Nothing necessarily holy about it.
> 
> But... I don't see why we'd have them in there (flags, that is).



Right, it seems like placing a flag in a church sanctuary would be intentional, and I would wonder at the intent behind it. 

On the other hand, let's say one is at a church that's worshipping at a public school and there just happens to be a flag in the classroom you're using. Then, I don't think it matters.


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## MLCOPE2 (Jul 10, 2010)

jawyman said:


> I greatly appreciate the discussion. Just for the record, I do not support the idea of flags in the sanctuary either. I just want to know what others thinks.


 
I grew up in the Christian Church (DoC) and we had both a christian flag and an american flag in the sanctuary as well. We even went so far as to say the pledge of allegiance to both flags every week during sunday school. I think that was a major problem but didn't realize it at the time.


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## Skyler (Jul 10, 2010)

If we're not allowed to have Bibles in public schools, then why should we have flags in our churches?


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## jawyman (Jul 10, 2010)

MLCOPE2 said:


> jawyman said:
> 
> 
> > I greatly appreciate the discussion. Just for the record, I do not support the idea of flags in the sanctuary either. I just want to know what others thinks.
> ...


 
The Lutheran church (WELS) never went so far as to recite the pledge in the sanctuary or in worship.


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## Grimmson (Jul 10, 2010)

Skyler said:


> If we're not allowed to have Bibles in public schools, then why should we have flags in our churches?


 
Point of clarification: I’ve always has a bible in my public school classrooms. I just didn’t teach from it in the classroom. Students are allowed to bring bibles and teachers can read from the bible during their own time. Teachers are just not allowed to evangelize the public school students.


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## jawyman (Jul 10, 2010)

While I did not grow up LCMS here is what the Missouri Synod states on their website:

Flags in Sanctuary

Q. What is the LCMS position on the American flag and the Christian flag being displayed in the sanctuary? And where should the flags be placed? 

A. The LCMS does not have an official stand on the inclusion of flags being displayed in the sanctuary. This is, ultimately, an adiaphoron--i.e., something neither commanded nor forbidden by Holy Scripture. We do have, however, a history and background to be considered in whether or not to display flags in the sanctuary, as well as the message that displaying such flags might convey.

Rev. Prof. William Schmelder, seasoned parish pastor, historian and professor emeritus of Concordia Seminary, St. Louis, has responded to a query from the Commission on Worship regarding this matter:

"To the best of my knowledge, the U.S. flag began appearing in our churches in response to two things: the desire to express an unquestioned loyalty as U.S. citizens (a reaction to WWI sentiment) and the growing sacralization of the flag in U.S. culture. In the history of my home congregation (Immanuel, Bristol, CT), the story of the responses to both WWI and WWII is given in some detail. However, the picture of the church after the renovation in 1948 does not show a flag. There was a flag on the grounds between the church and the school, and it was raised and lowered with considerable ceremony when school was in session. I think that is one response evident in many congregations: we could show our loyalty in many ways without placing the flag in the church; other congregations seem to have brought it into the building itself, with great debate about the proper location (nave, chancel, narthex, etc.).

"Non-Americans are often astounded to see a national symbol in the church (perhaps they have memories of the Nazi flag being touched to the altars of German churches).

"The so-called Christian flag is another matter entirely. It has no tradition of the church behind it. In fact, it violates much of what anyone knows of ecclesiastical heraldry. It seems to be the design of one man, who both drew it and profits from it. He or his heirs still get a royalty on every one sold. People seem to think that you need something to balance the U.S. flag on the other side, so you have a Christian flag."

Obviously, the inclusion of the American and Christian flags is widespread in the LCMS. As Professor Schmelder mentioned, this probably developed out of the desire of congregations of prominently German-American heritage not to appear German during and after the world wars. Likewise, many veterans of those wars returned with great patriotic zeal, which probably manifested itself in the desire to display "Old Glory" in the sanctuary.

Today, however, it may be time to reconsider this short-lived tradition among us (Lutherans never did this prior to WWI, and then only in America). One may observe that many congregations today, when considering a sanctuary renovation or even building a new sanctuary, will opt to display the flag in a location other than the chancel or nave. Many will place a flag outside of the building proper, or perhaps in the narthex. In such ways, as Professor Schmelder noted, we can demonstrate our patriotism, but not blur the distinction between the kingdom of Christ with the kingdom of the world/government. Our Lord's words, of course, come to bear on this issue ultimately: "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and render unto God the things that are God's" (Luke 20:22). Both are good and right ... in their respective places and times.

Guidelines for displaying the U.S. flag are directed in U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 7. Sub-sections (i) and (k) are the pertinent guidance for flag placement in churches, whether in the sanctuary proper, or in a narthex/entranceway or other room.

"(i) When displayed either horizontally or vertically against a wall, the union should be uppermost and to the flag's own right, that is, to the observer's left....

(k) ...When displayed from a staff in a church or public auditorium, the flag of the United States of America should hold the position of superior prominence, in advance of the audience, and in the position of honor at the clergyman's or speaker's right as he faces the audience. Any other flag so displayed should be placed on the left of the clergyman or speaker or to the right of the audience."

It should be noted that certain church architecture may require "applying" the guidance, since some worship spaces, for example, are not designed in a traditional sanctuary cruciform manner. Given that caveat, the following general guidance is offered.

1. In the sanctuary, if the national ensign (American flag) is placed on the floor level, it may be placed to the congregation's left (the clergyman's right as he faces the congregation) "or, the flag may be placed in a position of honor to the right of the audience as it faces the speaker, with any other flag to the left" (from the Department of Defense publication, "Our Flag"). This either/or placement is an indication of differing rationales in emphasis: the first is the place of honor from the clergyman/speaker's perspective facing the audience; the second emphasizes the place of honor from the audience's perspective.

2. If the U.S. flag is placed within the chancel, the flag is placed on the left side, i.e., to the clergyman's right as he faces the congregation. If the Christian flag or the LCMS logo flag is displayed with the American flag in the chancel, the correct placement (of the Christian flag or LCMS logo flag) is on the right side, i.e., the clergyman's left side as he faces the congregation.

3. If the U.S. flag is placed with another flag elsewhere in the sanctuary or in another building, it (the U.S. flag) is always on the left as one faces it.

4. If the U.S. flag is carried in a processional, it is the first flag. If others are included, the U.S. flag's position is first if single file or on the right if other flags are carried in a line with it. If a cross is in the processional, it (the cross) leads followed by the flags.

5. If the U.S. flag is on a flagpole, by regulation is must have the superior (top most) position. If another flag is also desired to be displayed, the easiest solution to avoid the appearance of "state over Church" is to have a second flag pole; the U.S. flag's position is always on the right.


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## N. Eshelman (Jul 10, 2010)

A poll would be nice, Jeff. Maybe you can get one of those up. 

Personally I am not for it. It seems that the Christian Flag is a scam and a farce anyway- have you ever read the history of it??? RIDICULOUS! 

I also do not think that promoting nationalism needs to be a part of our Christian witness. We call the nations to kiss the son, not our parishoners to kiss the nation.


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## N. Eshelman (Jul 10, 2010)

*Flags in the Sanctuary*

Here's a poll to go along with Jeff's discussion.


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## jwithnell (Jul 10, 2010)

I'd like to consider the "it's just a room" thought. From that perspective, an ad for McDonalds would be OK too. While the church is primarily the people of Christ, when we come together, we are involved in a sacred activity and the principle is taught over and over in the OT that we cannot casually approach God in any way we choose. A flag, in my understanding, would be foreign incense. What's in a sanctuary should contribute to our worship and glorification of God alone.


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## MLCOPE2 (Jul 10, 2010)

I don't see the poll!? 

---------- Post added at 02:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:30 PM ----------

Now it's there.


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## jawyman (Jul 10, 2010)

Thank you for the poll, Nate.


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## torstar (Jul 10, 2010)

Evangelical churches with very strong missionary support will place the flags of represented nations for conferences or permanent display.

Then again, maybe this thread is about the love of the US flag and impact on worship?


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## Christopher88 (Jul 10, 2010)

I do not support it. While I am glad to be a citizen of Americia she is not my God. Politics have nothing with God in worship and all things politic wise should stay out. 

I grew up Baptist and we had the American flag, but as I grow, I strongly disagree with having the A. Flag in worship. Our hearts, brains, eyes, ears, need to be on Christ not our second home. For my true home is the mansion that awaits my life when I pass from here to the thrown of Christ.


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## Herald (Jul 10, 2010)

jwithnell said:


> I'd like to consider the "it's just a room" thought. From that perspective, an ad for McDonalds would be OK too. While the church is primarily the people of Christ, when we come together, we are involved in a sacred activity and the principle is taught over and over in the OT that we cannot casually approach God in any way we choose. A flag, in my understanding, would be foreign incense. What's in a sanctuary should contribute to our worship and glorification of God alone.



Jean, the sanctuary is nothing but a room. Monday through Saturday it can serve any of thousand purposes (so long as they are not intrinsically sinful). But on the Lord's Day the sanctuary becomes the meeting place of God's people. In that room, however it is constructed, it contains a holy assembly. It is appropriate for the room itself not to distract from the worship of God. But at it's core the sanctuary is just a room. If worship was held in the open air we wouldn't be discussing a room. However, we would be still be gathering to worship God.


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## Notthemama1984 (Jul 10, 2010)

I am against it. I grew up in churches we would pledge allegiance to the American Flag, the Christian Flag, and the Bible (in that order). I didn't have a problem with this when I was young, but I look back and shudder a bit.


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## Montanablue (Jul 10, 2010)

I wonder if military chaplains have to deal with this. I would imagine in a military chapel there would be an American flag. (I mean, its probably even on the chaplain's uniform).


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## JennyG (Jul 10, 2010)

I didn't know there was such a thing as a Christian flag. 
In the oldest churches over here you'll quite often see various old flags, military standards usually not Union Jacks, as a permanent feature. While I don't know the thoughts of those who first put them there - I think I've always taken it that the flags weren't there to be themselves reverenced, but in token of acknowledgement that deliverance in war is only from the God of battles. Maybe a bit like bringing firstfruits to be offered.
Does that sound as if it's acceptable?


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## Notthemama1984 (Jul 10, 2010)

Sure, it is on our uniform and it probably will be in the chapel. That isn't a reason for me to avoid chapel services or military service in general. I see a difference between a military setting and a civilian one. The military setting is bringing God into a governmental setting, but a civilian church is bringing government into a spiritual setting. I see a huge difference.


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## Rich Koster (Jul 10, 2010)

Flags, Icons, artwork and banners can be a distraction in my opinion. In the meetinghouse, keep it plain clean and orderly.


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## MLCOPE2 (Jul 10, 2010)

Chaplainintraining said:


> I am against it. I grew up in churches we would pledge allegiance to the American Flag, the Christian Flag, and the Bible (in that order). I didn't have a problem with this when I was young, but I look back and shudder a bit.


 
I forgot that we did the pledge to the bible as well, and in the same order. What church did you grow up in?


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## Rich Koster (Jul 10, 2010)

Chaplainintraining said:


> I am against it. I grew up in churches we would pledge allegiance to the American Flag, the Christian Flag, and the Bible (in that order). I didn't have a problem with this when I was young, but I look back and shudder a bit.


 
I remember doing this during VBS and some other special meetings in 2 SBC congregations.


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## Notthemama1984 (Jul 10, 2010)

MLCOPE2 said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
> 
> 
> > I am against it. I grew up in churches we would pledge allegiance to the American Flag, the Christian Flag, and the Bible (in that order). I didn't have a problem with this when I was young, but I look back and shudder a bit.
> ...


 
Various SBC churches


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## au5t1n (Jul 10, 2010)

Rich Koster said:


> Chaplainintraining said:
> 
> 
> > I am against it. I grew up in churches we would pledge allegiance to the American Flag, the Christian Flag, and the Bible (in that order). I didn't have a problem with this when I was young, but I look back and shudder a bit.
> ...


 
Yeah, my old SBC did this during VBS and Awana only.


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## SolaScriptura (Jul 10, 2010)

Montanablue said:


> I wonder if military chaplains have to deal with this. I would imagine in a military chapel there would be an American flag. (I mean, its probably even on the chaplain's uniform).


 
Of course the flag is on my right sleeve. I'm fine with that. When I'm in uniform I'm an agent of the US, so I have no problem with that.

I have always been able to have the chapel sanctuary "done up" the way I want when I'm officiating worship. And one of the things I do is have them remove all trappings. Believe it or not, I know several chaplains who do the same thing.

---------- Post added at 04:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:44 PM ----------




Chaplainintraining said:


> Sure, it is on our uniform and it probably will be in the chapel. That isn't a reason for me to avoid chapel services or military service in general. I see a difference between a military setting and a civilian one. *The military setting is bringing God into a governmental setting*, but a civilian church is bringing government into a spiritual setting. I see a huge difference.


 
If this is true, then the government has a legitimate right to tell you what you can or can't talk about in the chapel. After all, what you've essentially said is that God is their guest, and as you know, guests need to obey "house rules."


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## Notthemama1984 (Jul 10, 2010)

Good point.


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## Andres (Jul 10, 2010)

The answer in the original post from the OPC Q&A seems to be spot on for me. I voted no.


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## Willem van Oranje (Jul 12, 2010)

I have also seen the Covenanters' Blue Banner "For Christ's Crown and Covenant" displayed during RPCNA worship services, usually central and directly behind/above the pulpit. While I _love_ the blue banner, I would prefer that it be placed in the back of the chapel.


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## Tripel (Jul 12, 2010)

I voted other. 

Having the American flag regularly displayed in a place of worship is unnecessary. Is it forbidden? I'm not sure. To me it's just a flag. I don't find a flag in any way distracting. Actually, I don't understand people's "distraction" argument. When you see a flag during worship does your mind wander off into patriotic song rather than the worship of God?
I can understand those of you who object to it on principle, and for that reason I think it's best not to have the flag on display. 

That said, I think it IS appropriate to have flags on display on special occasions. My church (and many others) brings out flags during our missions conferece (Yes, I know, some of you object to conferences, but please start a new thread if you want to discuss that). We display all of the flags of the countries where we are supporting missionaries. The US flag is included on that one Sunday.


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## SemperEruditio (Jul 12, 2010)

While visiting family on the 4th we worshipped at a PCA church. The first thing my heathen nephews asked was about the US flag on the "stage." After service we all left singing "_I'm proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free..._" Unless you have a flag from every single nation represented in the congregation then there should not be any flag. I've been to churches where there were many flags and the flags were in alphabetical order based on the country. Many of the other vets took issue with this and it opened up a dialogue...which went no where because _This is the U.S. of A.! Not the United Nations!_


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## Willem van Oranje (Jul 12, 2010)

SemperEruditio said:


> While visiting family on the 4th we worshipped at a PCA church. The first thing my heathen nephews asked was about the US flag on the "stage." After service we all left singing "_I'm proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free..._" Unless you have a flag from every single nation represented in the congregation then there should not be any flag. I've been to churches where there were many flags and the flags were in alphabetical order based on the country. Many of the other vets took issue with this and it opened up a dialogue...which went no where because _This is the U.S. of A.! Not the United Nations!_


 
Ouch! That service would have driven me mad! I've had enough of a hard time stomaching Lee Greenwood in secular settings. That song is pure paganism. "I thank my lucky stars..."


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## Austin (Jul 17, 2010)

Just a thought: As I've pondered this one thought keeps on coming to mind, "Would Paul place a Roman eagle or a sign saying 'Senatus et populi Romani' (SPQR) in the Sanctuary?" As I said, it's just a thought. 

At my church I served in Louisiana we had this problem. When I first arrived we were in a rented facility and had no flag. While we were building the new facility, the session decided against ever having them in the sanctuary. 

But, as our church was one that had left the PCUSA for the EPC (and in the process lost the old church building), we had to deal with the issue A LOT. After we'd been in the new place for some time the Women's Ministry guild decided to raise money to decorate the sanctuary. The Session & I laid down a standard Reformed set of guidelines based on the Regulative Principle of Worship (yes, some EPC congregations DO observe it...). Anyhow, one old Marine veteran inconspicuously told the ladies he thought it would be fine to have a set of flags in the sanctuary, and then went & found another veteran's widow to donate money designated for that purpose. We wanted to refuse to accept the money, but the elderly lady was a "sweet ole lady" and she meant well. Plus, her son was an elder, and we didn't want to offend. SO... the Session decided to allow the ladies guild to buy them PROVIDED that they stayed in the narthex and never came in to the sanctuary. Well, eventually this old Marine get a slew of flags for our missions conference for every country we supported missionaries in, and had them all placed by the Missions Committee in the sanctuary. When the Missions Conference started, there they all were. After the conference we decided to remove them back to the sanctuary. The old Marine then pounced, saying it was pathetic that with all we owe to America, it was an insult to all the veterans & their widows in the church to take them out & put the US & "Christian" flags back in the narthex. The battle continued, with the flags in the narthex for a time till the Session decided it wasn't a hill to die on & allowed them in the sanctuary, provided they weren't on the chancel, but were on the floor of the sanctuary in the shadowy wings of the front of the room. (This had the unfortunate effect of proving to all of our folks w/ agendas that they could get what they wanted if they only whined & complained long enough.) 

The irony, as I understand it, is that US flags in the South started during Reconstruction (1863-1877), when the Federal army of occupation imposed military flags (the ones with the gold braid & tassels) on Southern churches to remind the people that there was no place where they could escape the reach of the US government. I tried to tell this story to the pro-flag guy & his cronies, only to be called "an unpatriotic a**hole." Now, I took umbrage at this, as I am descended from veterans of the War of the Revolution & the Confederate Army, among many other conflicts. (My grandfather was stationed in Okinawa to be in the 1st invasion of the Japanese Home Islands in 1945, for instance...) It probably goes without saying that nothing could overcome the Marine's views. Scripture, reason, history... it all failed to convince him. All I did was 1) earn an enemy, & 2) prove that he who donates much and complains more can get his way. 

My takeaway: pick your battles. And even when you do all to avoid a battle, decide carefully what ground you stand on & only stand on it when you're sure to 'win.' And so, is this a battle worth fighting? Maybe. I am really bothered to have the standard of "one of the nations" (which will burn in the End) sitting in a sanctuary. But when powerful interests and/or easily wounded consciences are involved, be careful. You never know how your stands on adiaphoristic matters will end up biting you in the derriere. (Lesson learned the HARD way...) 

But, that said, in an environment such as that in Zimbabwe or Iran, or in 1st century Rome, I would find it inexcusable to put a symbol of the overlord in the sanctuary. In America, and especially among a certain demographic, one sometimes has to use discretion and be willing to 'lose' for the sake of fruitful ministry. 

As I said, just a thought. 

SHalom,


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## Peairtach (Aug 1, 2010)

As long as people realise that the flags aren't gods or don't represent gods/a god i.e. the nation should not be viewed as a god, they could be brought in occaisionally, when we thank God for deliverances in war and for our servicemen.

Otherwise you have "the abomination of desolation"!!!



> HOW THE ROMANS CARRIED THEIR ENSIGNS TO THE TEMPLE, AND MADE JOYFUL ACCLAMATIONS TO TITUS. THE SPEECH THAT TITUS MADE TO THE JEWS WHEN THEY MADE SUPPLICATION FOR MERCY. WHAT REPLY THEY MADE THERETO; AND HOW THAT REPLY MOVED TITUS'S INDIGNATION AGAINST THEM.
> 
> 1. AND now the Romans, upon the flight of the seditious into the city, and upon the burning of the holy house itself, and of all the buildings round about it, brought their ensigns to the temple (24) and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them, and there did they make Titus imperator (25) with the greatest acclamations of joy. And now all the soldiers had such vast quantities of the spoils which they had gotten by plunder, that in Syria a pound weight of gold was sold for half its former value. But as for those priests that kept themselves still upon the wall of the holy house, (26) there was a boy that, out of the thirst he was in, desired some of the Roman guards to give him their right hands as a security for his life, and confessed he was very thirsty. These guards commiserated his age, and the distress he was in, and gave him their right hands accordingly. So he came down himself, and drank some water, and filled the vessel he had with him when he came to them with water, and then went off, and fled away to his own friends; nor could any of those guards overtake him; but still they reproached him for his perfidiousness. To which he made this answer: "I have not broken the agreement; for the security I had given me was not in order to my staying with you, but only in order to my coming down safely, and taking up some water; both which things I have performed, and thereupon think myself to have been faithful to my engagement." Hereupon those whom the child had imposed upon admired at his cunning, and that on account of his age. On the fifth day afterward, the priests that were pined with the famine came down, and when they were brought to Titus by the guards, they begged for their lives; but he replied, that the time of pardon was over as to them, and that this very holy house, on whose account only they could justly hope to be preserved, was destroyed; and that it was agreeable to their office that priests should perish with the house itself to which they belonged. So he ordered them to be put to death.



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