# Making secular songs God-centered



## danmpem (May 26, 2008)

I know that there are some strong objections to taking a song by a non-Christian artist and turning it into a worship song (as well as songs by Bob Dylan, U2, etc.). I'm just looking for some input on the matter. What are some objections by members of the PB?

And E.P.-ers are more than welcome to respond.


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## JoelYrick (May 26, 2008)

I'm an EPer, but I can relate as I haven't been for too long. The first thing I'd ask is about reverence. Our worship is required to be reverent, and I'd just wonder if many of these tunes evoke first reverence or irreverence. I don't typically think of a music concert as a reverent atmosphere, and if that's the atmosphere you're trying to achieve in worship, you're failing the biblical standard. To my mind, things like funerals or weddings are reverent and perhaps music from there or other reverent places should be considered first. (Hebrews 12)


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## Leslie (May 26, 2008)

Many of the psalms in the various psalters were originally folk tunes.


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## danmpem (May 27, 2008)

Leslie said:


> Many of the psalms in the various psalters were originally folk tunes.



 You mean other kinds of psalms or the Biblical 1-150? (Forgive me, my exposure to Christian lyrics prior to c. 1990 is slim to none).


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## Grymir (May 27, 2008)

Is the culture to influence the Church? or the Church to influence the culture? This is one of the biggies for me. What has Geneva to do with Athens? They are also devoid of God centered lyrics, and place man as the object of worship. (I still haven't found what I'm looking for should never, never, never, ever be played in a Church. Do I need to explain why?)


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## danmpem (May 27, 2008)

Grymir said:


> (I still haven't found what I'm looking for should never, never, never, ever be played in a Church. Do I need to explain why?)



Most of my friends see absolutely nothing wrong with it, so please do.


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## danmpem (May 27, 2008)

joshua said:


> I'm not being disingenuous here, but, to be honest, if EP isn't the case, then I don't see how what is proposed above can be argued against.



I definitely understand where you're coming from with that.


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## raekwon (May 27, 2008)

My opposition comes from a different angle, in that I'm not an EP-er.

I'm (generally) opposed to this practice because it (generally) yields really bad theology and really bad art, and both of those are a dishonor to the Creator. It's generally a difficult thing to take a song that's already been written, "Christianize" the lyrics, and still maintain good form and good theology. Usually, both get abandoned.

(I will say, though, that I wouldn't be opposed to U2's _40_ being sung in church, as it's based on Psalm 40.)


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## Grymir (May 27, 2008)

I will explain.

Felt the healing in her fingertips? (God is a female??) Only to be with you, but then they sing I still haven't found what I'm looking for?? (Like I'm sitting here in Church and don't know the LORD, but say I do?) In a Church?? No mention of God or what he's done for us. It's all about me, me and me. What I'm doing, what I'm feeling, what I want. Not the kind of song that should be sung in Church. It shows a self-centerdness and self-worship that is sooo common to the contemporary christian music movement.


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## JBaldwin (May 27, 2008)

There are two ways to turn a secular song into a worship song. One is to change the lyrics slightly to make them "christian" and another is to use the music, but not the words. 

While I don't have much problem with taking an old, timely melody which is unfamiliar to most people and setting it to Scripture or to a song with good solid theology, I am strongly opposed to changing words slightly and adapting them for worship and congregational singing. 

In addition to the reasons already given in the above posts, there is a strange thing that happens in the brain when we put music and words together. The old words are not easily erased, even if we try to put new words in the place of the old ones. I often think of the hymn I learned first in French years ago. When I first sang it in an English speaking church, I found myself blurting the words out in French without even thinking. It was such a distraction that everyone stopped singing to listen to what I was singing. 

This is also the reason why I am also opposed to using well-known secular tunes. People end up walking out of the church singing the ungodly lyrics without realizing it.


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## aleksanderpolo (May 27, 2008)

Josh's new profile picture reminds me of an episode of Southpark in which Cartman becomes a "Christian songwriter" by changing "O baby" in pop songs to "O Jesus".

-Bad idea


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## BobVigneault (May 27, 2008)

No Josh, Cartman's method is a bad idea! Sorry Polo, be careful with Josh, he's a bit delicate. (Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha)


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## aleksanderpolo (May 27, 2008)

joshua said:


> aleksanderpolo said:
> 
> 
> > Josh's new profile picture reminds me of an episode of Southpark in which Cartman becomes a "Christian songwriter" by chainging "O baby" in pop songs to "O Jesus".
> ...



No no, I mean turning pop songs to "Christian song" a bad idea. You profile picture is awesome!


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## wsw201 (May 27, 2008)

I think one of the problems of turning a secular song into one that can be used for worship is that, along with CCM, they are not condusive to congregational singing.


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## JBaldwin (May 27, 2008)

wsw201 said:


> I think one of the problems of turning a secular song into one that can be used for worship is that, along with CCM, they are not condusive to congregational singing.



While I would pretty much agree with your statement, please don't throw every CCM song into that category. What was once CCM is not CCM today. Many CCM songs have beautiful singable melodies which I believe will be around for a long time.


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## Grymir (May 27, 2008)

Even I don't have a problem singing CCM songs while driving down the road, but to be used in Church is a different matter. Todd Wilkens sermon anaylisis test applies and explains really well.


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## JBaldwin (May 27, 2008)

Grymir said:


> Even I don't have a problem singing CCM songs while driving down the road, but to be used in Church is a different matter. Todd Wilkens sermon anaylisis test applies and explains really well.



What is Todd Wilkens sermon anaylsis test and what does that have to do with music?


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## wsw201 (May 27, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> wsw201 said:
> 
> 
> > I think one of the problems of turning a secular song into one that can be used for worship is that, along with CCM, they are not condusive to congregational singing.
> ...



That may very well be true, but the majority of the CCM songs, like secular songs, are for professional singers and are solos that require quite a range. They are not specifically written for congregational singing.


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## Grymir (May 27, 2008)

Hi JBaldwin! It has to do with the songs sung in Church specifically, not to music in general. Here's a link Extreme Theology: Christian Worship: Christ centered preaching It has to do with the sermon, but it also applies to the songs that are sung in Church. That's why 'In the Garden' is a horrible song, but "Holy, Holy, Holy' and 'A Mighty Fortress' are good songs. And, I repeat, this applies to songs sung in Church, not to what people listen to outside of Church.


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## JBaldwin (May 27, 2008)

Grymir said:


> Hi JBaldwin! It has to do with the songs sung in Church specifically, not to music in general. Here's a link Extreme Theology: Christian Worship: Christ centered preaching It has to do with the sermon, but it also applies to the songs that are sung in Church. That's why 'In the Garden' is a horrible song, but "Holy, Holy, Holy' and 'A Mighty Fortress' are good songs. And, I repeat, this applies to songs sung in Church, not to what people listen to outside of Church.



Thanks for the article Those are good points:

How often is Jesus mention? 
If Jesus is mentioned, is He the subject of the verbs? 
What are those verbs?

And I would agree with you. What bothers me, and it is why I made the comment in the first place is that there is a growing number of CCM songs that fit in this category. 

While there is a lot of junk out there, and I find it often frustrating to sift through, there are some good reformed CCM writers out there who make it a point to write music in this fashion. Songs like "In Christ Alone", "Beautiful Savior" and "How Deep the Father's Love for Us" (Stuart Townend) are classified as CCM and were written specifically to be sung in church. There is also an effort by Sovereign Grace, Inc., Reformed Praise (David Ward) and RUF to produce sound, Biblical CCM for congregational singing. By the way, you won't hear a lot of that kind of thing on the radio. 

So often, we look at a category of music and toss out the entire category without looking deeper. Because of the emphasis on EP and non-music and traditional hymns on this site, I always feel inclined to put in my


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## ColdSilverMoon (May 27, 2008)

Generally I don't think it's a good idea, based primarily on raekwon's point about shallow and bad theology. But here's one - who think's the song lyrics below are from a secular or Christian song? If I didn't know already, I'd say it could go either way:

"And reach out will it not be soft and kind
At rest from life
from patience and from pain
At rest from bliss
we know not when we find
How can I have enough of life and love

In your eyes are my secrets
that I've never shown you
In my heart I feel
I've always known you
In your arms there's a comfort
that I never knew
You're what I've been waiting for
there's no one like you

Sure as the sunrise
pure as a prayer
You fashioned hope
right out of thin air
Every dream I abandoned
seems it could come true
I believe in miracles
there's no one like you

Innocent as a newborn
in a world so frightening
It's as if my world's
been struck by lightning
Every dream I abandoned,
seems it could come true
I believe in miracles,
there's no one like you"


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## JBaldwin (May 27, 2008)

ColdSilverMoon said:


> Generally I don't think it's a good idea, based primarily on raekwon's point about shallow and bad theology. But here's one - who think's the song lyrics below are from a secular or Christian song? If I didn't know already, I'd say it could go either way:
> 
> "And reach out will it not be soft and kind
> At rest from life
> ...



If you follow the guidelines that songs should be Christ-centered and God-centered, this one doesn't make it, because we don't have a clue who the writer is talking about.


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## Grymir (May 28, 2008)

Amen JBaldwin!! I was wondering who it was written to. It sounds like I should be singing it to my wife.


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## JBaldwin (May 28, 2008)

Grymir said:


> Amen JBaldwin!! I was wondering who it was written to. It sounds like I should be singing it to my wife.


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