# He descended into hell.



## chuckd (Aug 19, 2014)

> Q. 50. Wherein consisted Christ's humiliation after his death?
> 
> A. Christ's humiliation after his death consisted in his being buried, and continuing in the state of the dead, and under the power of death till the third day; which hath been otherwise expressed in these words, He descended into hell.



Christ was in paradise, but his body was dead. He continued in this state until his body and soul were reunited on the third day. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the state of all believers who have passed away? It's strange to say they have all descended into hell until Christ returns.


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## Mr. Bultitude (Aug 19, 2014)

Zacharias Ursinus says in his commentary on the Heidelberg Catechism:



> The term *hell* is used in the Scriptures in three different senses.
> 
> 1. It is used for the grave. "Then ye shall bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave.” “Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell.” (Gen. 42:38. Ps. 16:10.)
> 2. It is employed to represent the place of the damned, as in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. “In hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off.” (Luke 16:23.)
> ...



Ursinus contends that "suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried" are explanations of Christ's bodily sufferings, while "descended into hell" is an explanation of the suffering of his soul. It is not, he says, to be understood as coming chronologically after what precedes it in the creed.

But the bottom line is that believers do not descend into hell. The hellish anguish of Christ will not be repeated by those who are in Christ. Going back to Ursinus' three senses of the word hell, it may be accurate to say our bodies descend into hell in the sense of the grave, but it's definitely misleading.

Disclaimer: After typing all that out, it looks like it disagrees explicitly with what you quoted from Westminster. Did the English and Continental Reformers differ on this matter?


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## MW (Aug 19, 2014)

chuckd said:


> It's strange to say they have all descended into hell until Christ returns.



First, it is a traditional phrase, not a biblical one. It is given a good biblical sense out of respect to tradition, but we should not insist upon it as if it were biblical in all respects, nor seek to deduce doctrines from it.

Secondly, the grave was a punishment for Christ; it is not a punishment for believers. In going to the grave He took control of the keys of the grave (of hell and of death), that He might make it a door of deliverance for His people out of this world and a door of entrance into glory. So the nature of the grave has been changed for believers by Christ.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Aug 19, 2014)

Chuck,

I suggest looking at this section of _The Works of Thomas Brooks _vol 5, especially pages 106-112, on the sufferings of Christ in His soul. That should answer your question. If you want to read on this more widely in Brooks, start at p. 76 (put 76 instead of 106 in the URL).

P.S. I see the link I gave is not working at the moment, so you might try this.


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## One Little Nail (Aug 20, 2014)

Pilgrim posted this on the Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology Thread Post #61 it was Grudem's view on that point:




Pilgrim said:


> Something else of note is his view of the Apostle's Creed. He believes that the phrase "He descended into hell" is indefensible. A journal article of his where he argues that position can be found here.


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## whirlingmerc (Aug 20, 2014)

Peter mentions Jesus 'preaching to spirits' at that time...
Of course he was in the grave as well....

In any case, Jesus did not suffer after death. Jesus and apostles outlined his sufferings a number of times and never included suffering in the grave or in hell.


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## clark thompson (Aug 20, 2014)

I think it is taught that Christ desended to hell to show He dfeated death and hell andwe arenot bound by them if we have Him.


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## chuckd (Aug 20, 2014)

armourbearer said:


> chuckd said:
> 
> 
> > It's strange to say they have all descended into hell until Christ returns.
> ...



I can respect it as tradition. A side historical question: did the authors of it have this biblical sense? I'm glad you responded because my question arose after searching this topic and found your post:


> OTOH, there is a soul-body unity, such that it is impossible to speak of the effects of death touching the body without also reaching the soul. *A soul under the power of death is one in which it is stripped of its material body.* Hence the souls of the redeemed are presented as crying out, How long? They have immediately passed into glory, but they are not complete without their bodily element. Therefore, to say that our Lord's soul was in paradise without His body is to declare that His soul likewise suffered the effects of death until the third day. The key point here is to avoid any insinuation that the Lord was consciously present in any place other than paradise.



Your whole post is relevant, but doesn't the bolded describe the state of believers before Christ's return? How can we not state likewise that they have "descended into hell"? Sorry if I read your description of the effects of the soul/body separation as meaning "he descended into hell."


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## chuckd (Aug 20, 2014)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Chuck,
> 
> I suggest looking at this section of _The Works of Thomas Brooks _vol 5, especially pages 106-112, on the sufferings of Christ in His soul. That should answer your question. If you want to read on this more widely in Brooks, start at p. 76 (put 76 instead of 106 in the URL).
> 
> P.S. I see the link I gave is not working at the moment, so you might try this.



Thanks, I'll take a look. It seems p.106 begins in the middle of a chapter. Do I start reading at the objection?


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## Jerusalem Blade (Aug 20, 2014)

Yes, that would be a good place.


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## Logan (Aug 20, 2014)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but often the verse referred to is Acts 2:31, which in the KJV is translated "his soul was not left in hell", but the word is sometimes also translated "grave" by the KJV, the underlying Greek being "Hades" or the place of the dead.


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## SRoper (Aug 20, 2014)

I think most of the problem with the phrase vanishes once we unburden the word _inferna_ (translated hell) from its accumulated baggage. In the Vulgate, _inferna_ is the word selected for _hades_, but never _gehenna_. It is perhaps best translated as "grave" or "place of the dead." Over the years, the English word inferno has come to mean "a great fire," but it originally meant "the lower places."


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## DMcFadden (Aug 20, 2014)

I can't believe nobody has referenced the fine study on the topic by Danny Hyde, "In Defense of the Descendit" from the _Confessional Presbyterian_ Vol 3 (2007). You can find it here: http://www.cpjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/hyde.pdf


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## SRoper (Aug 20, 2014)

Yes, that's very good. I think he made it into a book, too.


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## MW (Aug 20, 2014)

chuckd said:


> I can respect it as tradition. A side historical question: did the authors of it have this biblical sense?



Possibly? Where the descent clause replaces the burial in some versions it is possible to understand the two interchangeably. But as Witsius noted, it is more important to understand what they should have said than what they did say.



chuckd said:


> Your whole post is relevant, but doesn't the bolded describe the state of believers before Christ's return? How can we not state likewise that they have "descended into hell"? Sorry if I read your description of the effects of the soul/body separation as meaning "he descended into hell."



Their bodies are united to Christ in the grave and therefore rest as in a bed. The nature of the grave has been transformed. The bodies of the wicked are kept in their grave as in a prison.


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## MW (Aug 20, 2014)

Logan said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but often the verse referred to is Acts 2:31, which in the KJV is translated "his soul was not left in hell", but the word is sometimes also translated "grave" by the KJV, the underlying Greek being "Hades" or the place of the dead.



That is correct. Peter explains the term when he says that David was "both dead and buried" as an argument that David must have been speaking prophetically of Christ.


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## chuckd (Aug 21, 2014)

armourbearer said:


> Their bodies are united to Christ in the grave and therefore rest as in a bed. The nature of the grave has been transformed. The bodies of the wicked are kept in their grave as in a prison.



Thanks. I've never heard this before regarding the bodies. I'm still trying to understand your whole quote above though: "The souls of the redeemed" are under the "power of death." They are in paradise without their bodies and therefore "*likewise* suffer the effects of death." From WLC Q.50, it seems we can say they descended into hell in the same traditional sense Christ did.


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## MW (Aug 21, 2014)

Chuck,

The body without the spirit is dead. It corrupts in the grave. The soul without the body is naked. It was never designed to live a disembodied existence. On the other hand, the body is united to Christ and rests in hope, and the soul is clothed with its heavenly dwelling. This, however, is an intermediate state. It is not the final state. All is restored at the resurrection of the body, the full reunion of the soul with it, and the full enjoying of God to all eternity. As blessed as the intermediate state is, it does not free the person from the full effects of the fall. On this basis we must realistically acknowledge that there are effects of death from which believers still seek to be freed even though the effects are mitigated by union and communion with Christ in glory.

If Christ had accomplished nothing for believers, it could be said that believers descend into hell in the same sense Christ did. As it stands, though, Christ worked vicariously for believers in His descent into hell. So it would be an improper extension of the clause to say that believers descend into hell.

I cannot understand why a Christian would want to say that believers descend into hell. It sounds contrary to the essence of gospel-salvation.


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## earl40 (Aug 21, 2014)

armourbearer said:


> I cannot understand why a Christian would want to say that believers descend into hell. It sounds contrary to the essence of gospel-salvation.



I understand. Many believe the OT saints were not ushered into heaven till the incarnation.


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## Mr. Bultitude (Aug 21, 2014)

armourbearer said:


> Chuck,
> 
> The body without the spirit is dead. It corrupts in the grave. The soul without the body is naked. It was never designed to live a disembodied existence. On the other hand, the body is united to Christ and rests in hope, and the soul is clothed with its heavenly dwelling. This, however, is an intermediate state. It is not the final state. All is restored at the resurrection of the body, the full reunion of the soul with it, and the full enjoying of God to all eternity. As blessed as the intermediate state is, it does not free the person from the full effects of the fall. On this basis we must realistically acknowledge that there are effects of death from which believers still seek to be freed even though the effects are mitigated by union and communion with Christ in glory.
> 
> ...



What does it mean for the body to be united to Christ?


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## MW (Aug 21, 2014)

Mr. Bultitude said:


> What does it mean for the body to be united to Christ?



Please see 1 Cor. 6:12-20. In the words of the Larger Catechism, it is spiritual and mystical, yet real and inseparable.


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## chuckd (Aug 21, 2014)

armourbearer said:


> Chuck,
> 
> The body without the spirit is dead. It corrupts in the grave. The soul without the body is naked. It was never designed to live a disembodied existence. On the other hand, the body is united to Christ and rests in hope, and the soul is clothed with its heavenly dwelling. This, however, is an intermediate state. It is not the final state. All is restored at the resurrection of the body, the full reunion of the soul with it, and the full enjoying of God to all eternity. As blessed as the intermediate state is, it does not free the person from the full effects of the fall. On this basis we must realistically acknowledge that there are effects of death from which believers still seek to be freed even though the effects are mitigated by union and communion with Christ in glory.
> 
> ...



Rev. Winzer,

Thank you for your response (and your response to David which helped too). Please don't think I want to go around saying "believers descend into hell". As I said in the OP, it's strange to even say that. I'm trying to understand the creed I confess every (other) week without equivocation. Do you think saying "believers die and are buried" or that they are "under the power of death" is contrary to the essence of gospel-salvation?


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## Mr. Bultitude (Aug 21, 2014)

armourbearer said:


> Mr. Bultitude said:
> 
> 
> > What does it mean for the body to be united to Christ?
> ...



Thank you Matthew! For the benefit of others, some quick reference...

[BIBLE][1 Corinthians 6:12-20[/BIBLE]

Westminster Larger Catechism:



> Q. 66. What is that union which the elect have with Christ?
> 
> A. The union which the elect have with Christ is the work of God’s grace,[1] whereby they are spiritually and mystically, yet really and inseparably, joined to Christ as their head and husband;[2] which is done in their effectual calling.[3]
> 
> ...


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