# Natural religion vs without faith impossible to please God



## Afterthought (Nov 16, 2015)

Usually, the "faith" spoken of in Hebrews 11 (the "faith" without which it is impossible to please God) I hear explained as being "saving faith." However, Hebrews gives a reason why faith is needed to please God: a person must believe that God is and is a rewarder of them that seek him. So could this apply to a monotheistic, false religion that believes God rewards those that seek him? That is, does the explanation by the author of Hebrews show that this "faith" in verse 6 is not saving faith, but some sort of "natural faith"? If not, why not? Why is this "faith" referring to saving faith?


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## MW (Nov 16, 2015)

False religion is a perversion of natural theology, so even if the verse is applied to natural theology it will still condemn false religion for its false way of seeking God.

The context as a whole draws heavily from the special revelation of God to the "elders," which means natural theology could not have been the point of the statement in verse 6.

At the same time, the generic statement would have been as applicable to man in innocence as it is to man as fallen. Either way, man still needed special revelation to know how to seek God, and false religion rejects this special revelation.


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## Afterthought (Nov 16, 2015)

Would it be correct to say that those who claim to "believe God is and is a rewarder of them that seek him" but do not profess saving faith, must not really believe that, since they refuse to seek God by the means he has revealed? Or can an appeal only be made to context that the "faith" spoken of must be of a saving nature (which in terms of the pre-fall condition, translates to a natural faith? I'm trying to avoid stating that fallen man is incapable of saving faith, since I would like to use this verse as proof for that, i.e., I'm trying to understand the verse as though I were talking to a Pelagian or Arminian or liberal Protestant.)?

Edit: Also, might one object that although the context speaks of special revelation to the "elders," the statement in verse 6 and its explanation are so generic that they are not qualified by the context? And so anyone (of whatever religion) who believes God is and rewards those that seek him has the kind of faith necessary to please God?


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## KeithW (Nov 16, 2015)

This is not the only place which talks about saving faith. Another way to say this is, what must I do to be saved? Here are a few verses which are applicable. There are more. All of these must be taken together to understand saving faith.

_Matt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand._

_Mark 1:14,15 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel._

_Acts 16:30,31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house._

Jesus said,

_Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. (John 6:47)_

_The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:35,36)_

_Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. (Acts 4:10-12)_


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## VictorBravo (Nov 16, 2015)

Afterthought said:


> Edit: Also, might one object that although the context speaks of special revelation to the "elders," the statement in verse 6 and its explanation are so generic that they are not qualified by the context? And so anyone (of whatever religion) who believes God is and rewards those that seek him has the kind of faith necessary to please God?



I can't see the second clause of verse 6 saying this. I'd take an opposite tack. This passage depends entirely on context--and I mean the entire context of Hebrews from the start.

A couple things: he's writing to Hebrews who know their OT Scripture. That's obvious from the quotes and allusions he uses throughout the book. Here, when he says "rewarder," I think his readers or listeners might remember Genesis 15:1:

"After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward."

(I note that this passage comes right after Abram's victory over Chedorlaomer and the remarkable account of Melchizedek--which the Apostle deals with extensively in Hebrews). I can see this as a reminder that Abram's faith is the only kind of faith that justifies.

So, not only is there context within Hebrews, I think there is context within the entire body of Scripture, from Genesis on.

I do think the immediate context is the “elders,” particularly Enoch: “he pleased God.” The second part of verse six is saying, in essence, that people with the faith that Enoch had indeed believe in God as he is, (I AM), and that is demonstrated by the fact that he pleased God.

Take that and add the fact that the Apostle has spent 10 chapters explaining exactly who Jesus Christ is and how he had to be who he is because Scripture said so, and we get the idea that one can only please God by believing him as revealed in Scripture.

As if to pile on the point, we note that “by faith we understand…” that God is the creator. Not by natural revelation. And right at the start of Hebrews (1:2) we are told that creation is by Christ, and in 1:3 the universe is upheld by Christ.

These things are only apprehended by faith, and they are included in the idea that “God is.”

At least, that’s how I take the general argument/exhortation.


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## KeithW (Nov 17, 2015)

To add to Victor's comments about context, Heb. 11:6 is not the most important verse in that chapter about "saving faith". The difficulty with Hebrews 11 is that elements of saving faith are contained in that chapter but are not clearly explained there. Instead it mostly contains examples of the results of faith.

Saving faith is about becoming right with God. This is best explained by "_Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness_" in Rom. 4:3. The entire chapter of Romans 4 is explaining what this means. The summation is this:

_He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. (Rom. 4:20-22)_

God is able to keep His promises, and does keep His promises! Rom. 4:3 and Rom. 4:22 are quotations of Gen. 15:6. And Genesis 15:6, Abraham believed what the Lord says, immediately follows promises God had just made to Abraham. To bring this full circle back to Hebrews 11, this chapter does refer at times to promises.

An aside about false religions which seek "god", they are all seeking a god. The simple act of seeking a god does not automatically equate to seeking the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible identifies Himself by describing His characteristics and attributes and by what He has done. Consider what Paul said to the men of Athens, "_For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you._" (Acts 17:23) Paul declares and describes this one true and living God.


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## MW (Nov 17, 2015)

Afterthought said:


> Edit: Also, might one object that although the context speaks of special revelation to the "elders," the statement in verse 6 and its explanation are so generic that they are not qualified by the context?



Every statement is qualified by context. The generic statement might be applied in other ways but one has to understand that generic statement in its context to understand it aright so as to be able to apply it appropriately.

In this passage "faith" is immediately related to something hoped for and unseen. The eschatological direction of the passage indicates the importance of special revelation. This special revelation was the object of faith for the elders.


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