# The Collapse



## Ivan (Sep 24, 2009)

The coming evangelical collapse | csmonitor.com

What do you think?


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## PuritanCovenanter (Sep 24, 2009)

Good ole Spencer. I forgot all about him. He is so relevant. Some truth I would say. His predictions.... Well, the Lord knows. He definitely is not Post Mil. LOL


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## Marrow Man (Sep 24, 2009)

I didn't Spencer lived in KY. Some of the article I don't agree with, but I think he is spot on with these observations:

"Being against gay marriage and being rhetorically pro-life will not make up for the fact that massive majorities of Evangelicals can't articulate the Gospel with any coherence."

"Evangelicals have failed to pass on to our young people an orthodox form of faith that can take root and survive the secular onslaught. Ironically, the billions of dollars we've spent on youth ministers, Christian music, publishing, and media has produced a culture of young Christians who know next to nothing about their own faith except how they feel about it."

"American Christians seldom seem to be able to separate their theology from an overall idea of personal affluence and success."


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## Marrow Man (Sep 24, 2009)

Not to deviate too far from the OP, but could someone explain to me, in just a few words, about the history/origin/perspective of the Christian Science Monitor. Does it have roots in Christian Science? That would seem largely out of accord with the material it publishes, In my humble opinion.


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## discipulo (Sep 24, 2009)

Isn't Spencer being a bit extreme or pessimistic?

I like his quote:

_Despite all of these challenges, it is impossible not to be hopeful. As one commenter has already said, "Christianity loves a crumbling empire._

and we must place our hope on the Lord Who made the heavens and earth:

I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Mathew 16:18b


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## PuritanCovenanter (Sep 24, 2009)

Marrow Man said:


> Not to deviate too far from the OP, but could someone explain to me, in just a few words, about the history/origin/perspective of the Christian Science Monitor. Does it have roots in Christian Science? That would seem largely out of accord with the material it publishes, In my humble opinion.



[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Science_Monitor]The Christian Science Monitor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Looks like it is attached to the Christian Science Church.


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## Curt (Sep 24, 2009)

I'm just glad I'm not an evangelical.


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## Ivan (Sep 24, 2009)

Marrow Man said:


> Not to deviate too far from the OP, but could someone explain to me, in just a few words, about the history/origin/perspective of the Christian Science Monitor. Does it have roots in Christian Science? That would seem largely out of accord with the material it publishes, In my humble opinion.



I believe it is owed by that church. Not sure that the writer is CS. Regardless, he makes some good points, as you have noted. 

I'm thinking this might be a good thing. Tear it down and build it up.


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## Zenas (Sep 24, 2009)

The idea of God acting as a good gardener and trimming the sick and dead branches from the tree doesn't bother me. The conflation of the category of Christian and Republican needs to be demolished.


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## Curt (Sep 24, 2009)

Zenas said:


> The conflation of the category of Christian and Republican needs to be demolished.



Amen.


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## Jon Peters (Sep 24, 2009)

Zenas said:


> The idea of God acting as a good gardener and trimming the sick and dead branches from the tree doesn't bother me. The conflation of the category of Christian and Republican needs to be demolished.



I agree. Stop voting Republican people!


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## discipulo (Sep 25, 2009)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> Marrow Man said:
> 
> 
> > Not to deviate too far from the OP, but could someone explain to me, in just a few words, about the history/origin/perspective of the Christian Science Monitor. Does it have roots in Christian Science? That would seem largely out of accord with the material it publishes, In my humble opinion.
> ...



that was founded by that lady Mary Baker Eddy...but that's a cult


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## VilnaGaon (Sep 26, 2009)

Ivan said:


> The coming evangelical collapse | csmonitor.com
> 
> What do you think?



Not before time. Evangelicals are raising a theologically bankrupt generation divorced from Historical Christianity. Everytime I hear these people speak, I say that this is not the Christianity I believe in. They deserve to collapse.


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## Marrow Man (Sep 26, 2009)

discipulo said:


> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> > Marrow Man said:
> ...



What's worse is that I thought Christian Science followers believed something along the lines of evil and suffering being illusory. If so, why bother owning a paper that reports it?


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## Rich Koster (Sep 26, 2009)

Ivan said:


> The coming evangelical collapse | csmonitor.com
> 
> What do you think?



There is a trend being painted here that ignores the sovereignty of God and how there are seasons of revival that we can not predict.


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## Christopher88 (Sep 27, 2009)

From a 21 year old young reformed Christian mind here are my thoughts. 
First youth groups were and still are the down fall of the body. Instead of having youth groups preach doctrine, they preach issues with fun little pop the ballon games. I grew up in that type of youth group (for the time I was in Church) No meat was being taught to young people, just a glass of milk. 
The Pulpits preach the same stuff over and over again with out audacity , causing grown men to get bored. The four walls have made men become little sissys, not men of God. 
Lets sing love songs to our God like He is our boyfriend. Sorry my God is not my boyfriend, He is my God and I'm not gay. 

You want to see a turn around in the American Church, start preaching/teaching doctrine, start showing some audacity like Jesus did, and stop with the whole girlfriend worship. We need to be taught with a good ole raw piece of meat.

Another thing, gay marriage will happen, abortion will happen, evolution like or not will be taught. Our job is not to fight little petty fights like school girls. We need to start to show the gospel in our actions and when its time to speak let God speak. 

There will be a battle, but its not now. I pray I'm on the front lines at Armageddon with my rifle in hand and my head bowed. The fight is not now, now is the time to learn and practice what we preach. 

Its the whole girlfriend Christianity that has ruined us. 

Thank God reformed Christians are coming back, because maybe we will see a change.

Sorry for the rant, but I had to get that off my chest. 

(Note love is great, but lets go to biblical love.)

Edited some of my strong language. 

-----Added 9/27/2009 at 12:35:57 EST-----

Yes that is my reason for the downfall of evangelism in Americia.


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## ewenlin (Sep 27, 2009)

Sonny said:


> From a 21 year old young reformed Christian mind here are my thoughts.
> First youth groups were and still are the down fall of the body. Instead of having youth groups preach doctrine, they preach issues with fun little pop the ballon games. I grew up in that type of youth group (for the time I was in Church) No meat was being taught to young people, just a glass of milk.
> *The Pulpits preach the same stuff over and over again with no balls, causing grown men to get bored. The four walls have made men become little sissys, not men of God.*
> Lets sing love songs to our God like He is our boyfriend. Sorry my God is not my boyfriend, He is my God and I'm not gay.
> ...



I would not so rashly and harshly describe the Church - the bride of Christ, as you did brother. Granted errors are aplenty in too many churches, 

Sure we are to despair at what is happening in modern evangelicalism, but we should in any criticism, look towards offering a viable and constructive response that would edify the body as a whole.

If you think youth groups are "the downfall of the body," how do you think we can address this? Is what the churches are lacking a model and exposition of what biblical families are to be? How then should we incorporate this in any form of age-specific ministry (youth groups for example)?


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## christiana (Sep 27, 2009)

well, he both declared the problem and gave what he saw to be the needed correction, and with much zeal. how can you possibly fault his post?


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## ewenlin (Sep 27, 2009)

christiana said:


> well, he both declared the problem and gave what he saw to be the needed correction, and with much zeal. how can you possibly fault his post?



I think you're right and edited my post. My apologies and sincere thanks.


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## Andres (Sep 27, 2009)

I would fault the post, not neccessarily with it's declaration, but with it's coarse wording, which I deem to be inappropriate.


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## Radical_Pilgrim (Sep 27, 2009)

I don't think his post is bad. I believe he is right. Christianity has been kind of sissified in America. There is a lack of Biblical manhood in the church today. Many great preachers speak on this as well. And as far as the course wording, I think as desensitized as our culture has become, a bit of tough love in the right situation, is warranted. Just my thoughts.


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## christiana (Sep 27, 2009)

well,i actually would be in favor of his editing out a phrase to more conform to what would be God honoring and not crude or coarse. With that editing it would be a fine post!
I think Christian men should use language that conforms to God, not the world.


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## Curt (Sep 27, 2009)

christiana said:


> well,i actually would be in favor of his editing out a phrase to more conform to what would be God honoring and not crude or coarse. With that editing it would be a fine post!
> I think Christian men should use language that conforms to God, not the world.



I agree.


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## Rich Koster (Sep 27, 2009)

It is a shame that the nation who once sent out solid missionaries and had more solid Churches than anywhere else now houses the castrati, but taking the argument to saying grow some to those who surrendered them is a moot point. God will raise up a new generation who is not at ease, or gender neutral, in Zion. We may not like some of the rough edges that some of the young preachers have, but let's see what happens when God polishes them off.


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## christiana (Sep 27, 2009)

Trash mouth 'preaching' i find abominable and scripture seems to agree. It certainly is not within the confines of 'whatever is pure'.


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## Rich Koster (Sep 27, 2009)

christiana said:


> Trash mouth 'preaching' i find abominable and scripture seems to agree. It certainly is not within the confines of 'whatever is pure'.



Yes, maybe I should have included that as a point in my hope for better things.


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## Radical_Pilgrim (Sep 27, 2009)

christiana said:


> Trash mouth 'preaching' i find abominable and scripture seems to agree. It certainly is not within the confines of 'whatever is pure'.



I agree about trash mouth preaching. However, I feel _sharp_ words are necessary sometimes. Ezekiel proves that. And in my opinion even that sort of language is quite a bit rough still. But something along those lines might be needed as our culture continues to get more and more morally corrupt by the day and godless to boot.


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## Christopher88 (Sep 27, 2009)

Fellas, while my wording may not confine to what you deem as pure, its a mute issue and one that does not involve this thread.  

Rich, I look forward to God polishing me, and believe me I know He is getting out the sander. 

To answer your question Christiana on what youth groups can be doing, here is my answer. 
Do not have music as your main focus, as so many groups do. Music is entertainment and yes some folks can worship God in music. Music is a biblical form of worship, however it should not be the vocal point of any ministry. 
Youth groups need to stop having child like games during the brief hour they are in sessions. It takes up too much time, when that time can be spent in the word. 
Youth Leaders need to have 45 mins to teach the kids a biblical doctrine message with a point of application then have 15 mins of solid prayer in small groups. After prayer there needs to be a q and a time. Bible and prayer need to be the focus, not O our youth group is cool invite a friend. 

Cool is not God, awe and wonder is God. 

The chief end of man is to glorify God. One must ask are we entertaining or glorifying?

-----Added 9/27/2009 at 04:40:07 EST-----

My post was edited for you guys.


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## Rich Koster (Sep 27, 2009)

Sonny said:


> Fellas, while my wording may not confine to what you deem as pure, its a mute issue and one that does not involve this thread.
> 
> Rich, I look forward to God polishing me, and believe me I know He is getting out the sander.
> 
> ...



Sonny, check out the signature requirements.....one of the mods or admins will eventually refer you to that.


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## christiana (Sep 27, 2009)

We have our marching orders in scripture alone and are to confront by speaking the truth in love. He not only told us what to say but what to think as well. Adapting to the culture is not an option. The church's troubles today mostly come from such conforming, people pleasing methods to bring the numbers in. He did not so instruct the church.
I agree that we are all not being fed doctrine intensive info, especially the young peoples groups.


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## Curt (Sep 27, 2009)

Sonny said:


> Fellas, while my wording may not confine to what you deem as pure, its a mute issue and one that does not involve this thread.
> 
> Rich, I look forward to God polishing me, and believe me I know He is getting out the sander.
> 
> ...



One thing that many folks believe is appropriate to do with youth groups - is to eliminate them.


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## VilnaGaon (Sep 27, 2009)

Sonny said:


> From a 21 year old young reformed Christian mind here are my thoughts.
> First youth groups were and still are the down fall of the body. Instead of having youth groups preach doctrine, they preach issues with fun little pop the ballon games. I grew up in that type of youth group (for the time I was in Church) No meat was being taught to young people, just a glass of milk.
> The Pulpits preach the same stuff over and over again with out audacity , causing grown men to get bored. The four walls have made men become little sissys, not men of God.
> Lets sing love songs to our God like He is our boyfriend. Sorry my God is not my boyfriend, He is my God and I'm not gay.
> ...



I AGREE!! Contemporary ""Christianity"" is a pansy-fied joke. I would rather convert to Islam or Orthodox Judaism than to the ""Girlfriend Christianity"" of todays Evangelicalism.


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## kvanlaan (Sep 28, 2009)

I have always been a big critic of youth groups, and then peered a little more deeply into the one my son was going to: no 'games' per se, but exercises - how to evangelize, can you explain what you believe? They are training missionaries and witnesses for Christ, and I am thrilled. 

(By the way, I know this is not the norm!)

I have hope.


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## ewenlin (Sep 28, 2009)

kvanlaan said:


> I have always been a big critic of youth groups, and then peered a little more deeply into the one my son was going to: no 'games' per se, but exercises - how to evangelize, can you explain what you believe? They are training missionaries and witnesses for Christ, and I am thrilled.
> 
> (By the way, I know this is not the norm!)
> 
> I have hope.



I too do think that youth groups can work. If I remember correctly, Pastor Noblit over at Grace Baptist, Shoels, had a model of youth ministry that was youth focused, but parents oriented. Not sure how they did it or if it's still around.


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