# Non believers and Church Music



## holyfool33 (May 11, 2008)

Should only believers perform hymns, psalms or spirtual songs? Or is it premisable to use talented non believers if there only performing instrumentl parts of music>


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## tellville (May 11, 2008)

holyfool33 said:


> Should only believers perform hymns, psalms or spirtual songs? Or is it premisable to use talented non believers if there only performing instrumentl parts of music>



I guess it depends where you are performing the music and in what capacity? Questions like the following need to be answered first:

1. Will this music be performed during the worship service or anywhere in the church?

2. Will it be performed outside of the church?

3. Will it be performed by a group of people who represent a church?

Once these questions are answered then I think it will be much easier to answer your question, or at the very least give you a suggestion. 

In my opinion if you are just performing on the street with a couple of buddies or something or singing in somebody's home then why not? Better to sing hymns then some hip hop junk.


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## Theoretical (May 11, 2008)

tellville said:


> holyfool33 said:
> 
> 
> > Should only believers perform hymns, psalms or spirtual songs? Or is it premisable to use talented non believers if there only performing instrumentl parts of music>
> ...


 

What is the context?


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## Herald (May 11, 2008)

Aaron, is your context within worship? If so, then consider the following:

*Psalm 100:4 * Enter His gates with thanksgiving And His courts with praise. Give thanks to Him, bless His name. 

Who are those who enter His gates and His courts? Those who love God. Hence, believers.


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## Pergamum (May 11, 2008)

Yes, inside church and for service to God the voices of unbelievers, no matter how beautiful to our ears are horrid to God and only believers, even if they sing like strangled frogs, is a beautiful sound to God.


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## Herald (May 11, 2008)

> even if they sing like strangled frogs, is a beautiful sound to God.



Ribbit!


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## py3ak (May 11, 2008)

Hmm. I don't actually believe anyone should _perform_ music meant to worship God. The congregation sings. If an instrument is played at all it should be for helping the congregation to sing without chaos. If an unbeliever is present and chooses to participate in the sung portion of the service, I don't see why you would stop him --although afterwards you might well ask him if he could sing those words with conviction as coming from his heart.


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## jwithnell (May 11, 2008)

The person playing the piano, organ, harpsichord, whatever, is to some degree leading in worship. So yes, to have a nonbeliever in such a role would be dishonoring to the audience of our worship! On the other hand, a nonbeliever attending a worship service may actually be instructed by the words he is singing. Sadly, he may also be singing to his own condemnation if he does not heed the words and turn to Christ.


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## Presbyterian Deacon (May 11, 2008)

North Jersey Baptist said:


> > even if they sing like strangled frogs, is a beautiful sound to God.
> 
> 
> 
> Ribbit!



Even a strangled frog can make "a joyful noise!" (Psalm 100:1).

Psalm 100:1 
A Psalm of praise.
Make a joyful noise unto the Lord, all ye lands.


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## moral necessity (May 11, 2008)

Also, we are defining believers as believers by profession and unbelievers by no profession. For, we cannot peer into the secret things of God. For, many have taken on such roles in churches and were genuine unbelievers, although many thought that they were otherwise, and were still partaking in a worshipful service. In fact, many today who have such roles may still be unregenerate, and the congregation knows no different. But, I agree; in the service, those with responsibilities ought to have a profession of faith.

Blessings!


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## VictorBravo (May 11, 2008)

I was a church organist long before I was a believer. 

I can tell you first hand that there is a significant reprobate subculture among those who call themselves church musicians. Especially in the old-line mainstream denominations. Even as an unbeliever, the hypocrisy was too much for me to bear.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (May 11, 2008)

John Cotton has a chapter devoted to the question of whether carnal men may sing psalms (a cappella) along with godly Christians in his treatise on the singing of psalms (he answers in the affirmative). You can purchase it here  or read it online here.


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## JBaldwin (May 12, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> Yes, inside church and for service to God the voices of unbelievers, no matter how beautiful to our ears are horrid to God and only believers, even if they sing like strangled frogs, is a beautiful sound to God.



I would agree with this statement (and other similar statements). 

Taking this one step further (from the musician's perspective)--Music is the language of the soul, and serious singers, take what they sing very personally. To sing a song, any song, convincingly, the singer takes on the "voice" of the writer of the lyrics. He either believes the words he is singing, or he acts the part. A non-believer cannot sing worship to God without acting the part. This is false, and therefore an abomination to God. 

On the other hand, as a believer, I find it equally as difficult to sing words that are not true for the same reason.


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## toddpedlar (May 12, 2008)

A number of the "big" PCA churches make no distinction of belief/unbelief when seeking to employ those who play music at their worship services. As I told one of those who is on staff at one of those churches, "when did the Israelites ever employ a Philistine to play cymbals for the temple worship?" That conversation went nowhere.

Apart from the question of the propriety of instruments in worship, the fact is that those playing music (even for the purposes of simply accompanying the congregational singing) are taking on a public leadership role (what would happen, e.g. if the organist simply stopped playing mid-hymn? They're LEADING despite what we might like to think). As such, no unbeliever has any place at all (some might argue that no non-elder has any place at all) playing music for accompaniment of congregational praise. Whether "leading" or not, they do have a prominent place in the worship service, and such places should be, must be reserved for those who profess faith in Christ. The practice that goes on with churches paying unbelieving worship bands to accompany the congregation in song (or, worse, to "perform") is a sign of the abysmal depths to which congregational worship has gone.


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## JBaldwin (May 12, 2008)

toddpedlar said:


> A number of the "big" PCA churches make no distinction of belief/unbelief when seeking to employ those who play music at their worship services. As I told one of those who is on staff at one of those churches, "when did the Israelites ever employ a Philistine to play cymbals for the temple worship?" That conversation went nowhere.
> 
> Apart from the question of the propriety of instruments in worship, the fact is that those playing music (even for the purposes of simply accompanying the congregational singing) are taking on a public leadership role (what would happen, e.g. if the organist simply stopped playing mid-hymn? They're LEADING despite what we might like to think). As such, no unbeliever has any place at all (some might argue that no non-elder has any place at all) playing music for accompaniment of congregational praise. Whether "leading" or not, they do have a prominent place in the worship service, and such places should be, must be reserved for those who profess faith in Christ. The practice that goes on with churches paying unbelieving worship bands to accompany the congregation in song (or, worse, to "perform") is a sign of the abysmal depths to which congregational worship has gone.



I agree. I am in the PCA, and it disturbs me greatly to see the non-chalant attitude toward unbelieving musicians in some PCA churches. All the musicians in a church involved in worship should be believers. As far as lifestyle and personal testimony is concerned, if a church is going to use musicians, it should hold them to the same standards as any other leader in the church.


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## AV1611 (May 12, 2008)

holyfool33 said:


> Should only believers perform hymns, psalms or spirtual songs?



I agree with John Gill:

It is a case of conscience with some, whether they should sing in a mixed multitude, or in the presence of unbelievers, they joining with them. The solution of which, I would attempt in the following manner; let it be observed, that singing, as a part of moral worship, is binding on all men, without exception, believers and. unbelievers; the former, indeed, are the only persons who are capable of performing it in a spiritual and evangelic manner; but the latter may have a sense of God’s goodness upon their minds, and be able to praise him for their temporal mercies, though they cannot do it in faith, nor without sin; nor indeed, can they perform a natural or civil action, any more than a moral one, without sin; for the plowing of the wicked is sin (Prov. 21:4). But it does not from hence follow, that a man must not plow, or perform any civil action, because he sins in it. And so likewise it ought not to be concluded, that a man should not pray, or sing psalms, or perform any other moral action, because he cannot do it in a spiritual way; for it is better for him to do it in the best way he can, than not at all. But, supposing that it is not the duty of unbelievers to sing psalms, it will be very difficult to know who are such in public assemblies; and if such should join with you, why should this affect you that are believers? Will this sin of theirs be ever laid to your charge, or you be accountable for it? Should you neglect your duty because they are not in theirs? Must your mouths be stopped because theirs are open? Should you not rather blush and take shame to your selves? When you see them so forward to what you judge is not their duty, and you your selves so backward to it. Besides, it has been the practice of the saints, in all ages, to sing in mixed assemblies. There was a mixed multitude which came up with the Israelites out of Egypt, in whose presence Moses and the children of Israel sung at the Red Sea, and who, very probably, joined with them in the song, since they had a share in the common deliverance. The psalmist David, declared it as his resolution, and, no doubt but it was his practice, when he had opportunity, to sing the praises of God among the Heathens. Therefore, says he, will I give thanks unto thee, O Lord, among the Heathen, and sing praises unto thy name. I will praise thee, O Lord, among the people, I will sing unto thee among the nations (Ps. 18:49; 57:9). The church, in Solomon’s song, is represented, not only as taking her part in the song in the midst of, but as joining with the daughters of Jerusalem, though they were ignorant of Christ her beloved. It is evident, that the church at Corinth sung psalms in the presence of unbelievers, as well as performed other parts of public worship; which was one reason that made the Apostle so desirous of rectifying the irregularities in this, as in the rest; that so unbelievers, who came in among them, might be convinced and obliged to own, that God was in them of a truth. Moreover, inasmuch as unbelievers are admitted to public prayers, and to join with you in them, why not to public singing? especially, since some ends of this ordinance cannot be answered without their presence; which are to declare the Lord’s doings among the people, and make known his wonders and his glory among the Heathen: (Ps. 9:11; 96:3) To add no more, this ordinance has been an ordinance for conversion; I have known it to be so, and so have others besides me; and a good reason this is why it should be continued publicly in our churches, and unbelievers be admitted to an attendance on it.​



holyfool33 said:


> Or is it premisable to use talented non believers if there only performing instrumentl parts of music>



Could Instruments Be Idols? « Heidelblog
On Elements and Circumstances « Heidelblog


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