# "In the beginning was the Torah"



## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Aug 4, 2005)

*\"In the beginning was the Torah\"*

I am not sure whether to be mad or be sick but I have decided I would consult you guys here. A discussion went something likes this "... that happened before the Torah was written." "No it didnt. John 1:1 says "In the beginning was the Torah, and the Torah was with God, and the Torah was God."

This person is very Messianic Jewish although despite what she thinks she is not actually a _Jew_. (Although she does have a weird story about the Ten Lost Tribes and how she is decended from them  ).

Anyway can someone give me a history of this rendering and or how correct/uncorrect it is?

[Edited on 4-8-2005 by Abd_Yesua_alMasih]


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## Scott Bushey (Aug 4, 2005)

Fraser,
You write:



> "... that happened before the Torah was written." "No it didnt. John 1:1 says "In the beginning was the Torah, and the Torah was with God, and the Torah was God."



The statement makes no sense. Your example of John 1 does not mean that God had a written copy of the Torah/Logos _in the beginning_. More specifically, _logos_ here is used to describe Christ.

G3056
Î»Î¿ÌÎ³Î¿Ï‚
logos
log'-os
From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) *the Divine Expression (that is, Christ)*: - account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

Do a word search on the Striongs 3056; you will see it is correctly rendered and defined in John 1 as Christ.


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## LawrenceU (Aug 4, 2005)

In the first place 'logos' is Greek. It has a meaning much larger than Torah. If God had meant Torah in John 1 then he would have said it. Torah means 'teaching', 'law', or 'doctrine'. Logos is a much broader concept than that. In reaity (the) Torah points to Logos. Jesus Christ is more that doctrine.

Having said that, some Messaianic streams have a strange sort of pride in which they feel that everything must be Jewish or it is not from God.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Aug 4, 2005)

I was almost certain of the Greek word 'logos' and I have a strong concordance. I was less certain about my understanding of 'torah'.

Thanks for all the information.


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## calgal (Aug 5, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LawrenceU_
> In the first place 'logos' is Greek. It has a meaning much larger than Torah. If God had meant Torah in John 1 then he would have said it. Torah means 'teaching', 'law', or 'doctrine'. Logos is a much broader concept than that. In reaity (the) Torah points to Logos. Jesus Christ is more that doctrine.
> 
> Having said that, some Messaianic streams have a strange sort of pride in which they feel that everything must be Jewish or it is not from God.



Messianics are really confused folks (I avoid them at all costs) Hyper Arminian and Dispensational is the norm (there are exceptions but...) Galatians 3:28 seems to be a verse they skip over...


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## Evan Tomlin (Aug 12, 2005)

Fraser,
I am not sure how germane this link is to the current discussion, but regardless of its specific relevancy to Torah it is informative nonetheless. 
http://mysterium-dei.blogspot.com/2004/05/johannine-logos-influence-of-greek.html

Enjoy!!



[Edited on 8-12-2005 by Evan Tomlin]


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## Average Joey (Aug 12, 2005)

I love discussions like this!John wrote this as "logos" because of a popular way the greeks were explaining existence or the underlining factor for all things using that word "logos".In other words the people who read John understood EXACTLY what John meant when he wrote "Logos".Logos simply means the reasoning or meaning of it all.Hey that would be a good answer if somebody asked you,"What is the meaning of life?"Your answer:"Logos and Christ is Logos".


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## Authorised (Aug 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Average Joey_
> I love discussions like this!John wrote this as "logos" because of a popular way the greeks were explaining existence or the underlining factor for all things using that word "logos".In other words the people who read John understood EXACTLY what John meant when he wrote "Logos".Logos simply means the reasoning or meaning of it all.Hey that would be a good answer if somebody asked you,"What is the meaning of life?"Your answer:"Logos and Christ is Logos".




That assertion is repugnant to Dr. Ron Nash. He thinks the exact opposite here


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## Average Joey (Aug 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Authorised_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Average Joey_
> ...



I don`t know him.What does he believe?That Christ is not logos incarnate?


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## Authorised (Aug 13, 2005)

He is an orthodox Calvinist, but rejects the assertion that Jesus is that same logos, because it would seem as if the pagans infuenced the scriptures.


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## SRoper (Aug 13, 2005)

But doesn't even Calvin (echoing Augustine?) acknowledge that pagans can arrive at truth? "Therefore, in reading profane authors, the admirable light of truth displayed in them should remind us, that the human mind, however much fallen and perverted from its original integrity, is still adorned and invested with admirable gifts fom its Creator." -Inst. II,II,15.

I would say that the pagans "influenced" scripture only as far as what they taught was true.


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## Average Joey (Aug 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Authorised_
> He is an orthodox Calvinist, but rejects the assertion that Jesus is that same logos, because it would seem as if the pagans infuenced the scriptures.



Ah,gotcha.


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