# Holiday question



## Kevin (Nov 6, 2006)

I have question for those of you who don't celebrate christmas. Especially if you are concearned about "Paganism".

How far do you take this avoidence of all things pagan plan?

For instence what do you call the days of the week? Do you honour the moon godess by calling the second day Monday, the sun god by calling the first day Sunday? 

I am certain that if you consider giving kids candy on the the 31st of Oct or putting up a christmas tree to be "idolatry" you would have a problem with looking at a calendar and seeing 'thors' day, friggas' day, etc. 

Or not? I have always wondered about this. Thanks.


----------



## LadyFlynt (Nov 6, 2006)

That's a logical falacy if I ever heard one (and I've heard it before). There is a difference between calling something by the name it was given and refusing to participate in a ceremony/practice/celebration.


----------



## LadyFlynt (Nov 6, 2006)

btw...there are ppl who use the numbering system rather than the names. Some out of preference and some out of conviction. I don't have a problem with this. Albeit, it is neccessary to learn them. I will also state that many of our common words or names for things have pagan roots. It's not the fact that they were named for pagan things. The issue with holidays is that they are pagan celebrations still being celebrated by pagans...and mixed into Christianity. Christ was not born in the winter, the tree is an obvious pagan symbol that goes with the pagan celebration for that time of year. I could point out this with numerous holidays. Believe me, I have studied them indepth. Would you walk around wearing a pentagon necklace? But it's just a piece of jewelry! Oh, you don't want the association with those that use it as a symbol of what/who they are. As an American you won't find me flying an Australian flag either.


----------



## Kevin (Nov 6, 2006)

LadyFlynt said:


> That's a logical falacy if I ever heard one (and I've heard it before). There is a difference between calling something by the name it was given and refusing to participate in a ceremony/practice/celebration.



Sorry, it is not a fallacy it is a question.

I have only on a couple of occasions met presbyterians who held to the 'no holiday' view I have seen here on the PB. My only exposure to 'real-live no holiday' people have been members of a (heretical) group of pentecostals, and yes virginia some of them will not use the "names" of the days of the week.


*Sorry, just remembered I did meet some calvinistic baptists in VA years ago who were anti-christmas.


----------



## historyb (Nov 6, 2006)

Kevin said:


> I have question for those of you who don't celebrate christmas. Especially if you are concearned about "Paganism".
> 
> How far do you take this avoidence of all things pagan plan?
> 
> ...



Very good questions. If people are afraid of doing something pagan that I reckon we'll have to throw out everything and start over.


----------



## LadyFlynt (Nov 6, 2006)

please reread my post...i edited while you were cross posting. (excuse typos...nursing).


----------



## Kevin (Nov 6, 2006)

LadyFlynt said:


> btw...there are ppl who use the numbering system rather than the names. Some out of preference and some out of conviction. I don't have a problem with this. Albeit, it is neccessary to learn them. I will also state that many of our common words or names for things have pagan roots. It's not the fact that they were named for pagan things. The issue with holidays is that they are pagan celebrations still being celebrated by pagans...and mixed into Christianity. Christ was not born in the winter, the tree is an obvious pagan symbol that goes with the pagan celebration for that time of year. I could point out this with numerous holidays. Believe me, I have studied them indepth. Would you walk around wearing a pentagon necklace? But it's just a piece of jewelry! Oh, you don't want the association with those that use it as a symbol of what/who they are. As an American you won't find me flying an Australian flag either.





The problem with this thinking by Christians (xmas=pagan) is that NO ONE makes the connection out in the "real world". 

Trust me if you asked 1000 random christmas shoppers what christmas is all about you might get a wide range of replys from crass commercialism to the 'real meaning' type of answers but no one will say it is a mid-winter pagan festival.

So if "monday" can just be the second day of the week & not a day to worship the moon then why can't christmas just be a celebration of Christs Birth? Why do we have to find some connection to a long dead religion? 

Some people honestly sound like they expect the pope to come down the chimney and force them to admit to the physical presence in the mass if they put up stockings on the mantle.


----------



## NaphtaliPress (Nov 6, 2006)

[FONT=&quot]George Gillespie notes regarding the unlawfulness of rites and practices which are monuments of past idolatry that "if the abuse is not known, we are blameless for retaining the things and rites which have been abused." _A Dispute Against the English Popish Ceremonies_ (Dallas: Naphtali Press, 1993) part 3 chapter 2 section 1.
[/FONT]


Kevin said:


> The problem with this thinking by Christians (xmas=pagan) is that NO ONE makes the connection out in the "real world".
> 
> Trust me if you asked 1000 random christmas shoppers what christmas is all about you might get a wide range of replys from crass commercialism to the 'real meaning' type of answers but no one will say it is a mid-winter pagan festival.
> 
> ...


----------



## LadyFlynt (Nov 6, 2006)

The problem with this is that the abuse is known and as for the "real world"...Christians are the laughing stock because of our participation. How do I know? I know pagans. I've listened to their conversations online as well as having discussed them IRL. I've read their books in public libraries from the time I was 13. They are all the more turned off because they see us as not only no different, but as ppl that are ignorant of our own history and disobedient to our own rules. You are also ignoring the resurgence of paganism.

One of the first things a non-Christian or a pagan will do when entering discussion with me is ask certain questions. Do I celebrate Christmas? Do I cover my head? Do I submit to my husband? Do I use birth control? 

Sad to say...most of them have a better idea of what historical Christianity entailed than most ppl who call themselves Christians. Unfortunately many Christians have become lax and/or ignorant in the past hundred years...leaving open the door to confusion, disobedience, and eventually plenty of apostacy within the church.


----------



## Blueridge Believer (Nov 6, 2006)

Kevin said:


> I have question for those of you who don't celebrate christmas. Especially if you are concearned about "Paganism".
> 
> How far do you take this avoidence of all things pagan plan?
> 
> ...



Hi brother Kevin. For me it's not a matter of just paganism. I don't believe anyone here at PB is celebrating Christ-mass as a pagan celebration. I just can't bring myself to observe a holiday that's unscriptural and popish. I won't observe Ishtar either. I won't look down on anyone else who wants to observe it. I'll give them Romans 14 love like I ask from my sabbatarian brethern for myself.
God bless you brother


----------



## Gregg (Nov 6, 2006)




----------



## Pergamum (Nov 7, 2006)

Can foreign missionaries "redeem" pagan festivals and remove the offensive elements.

For instance, not ban a harvest destival where goats are sacrificed but, instead, substitute prayer to Almighty God.

Should former Mslms pray during Ramadan to remember their neighbors? Or is the spirit of the former remembrances to powerful.

This is a MAJOR issue in missiology.



If Romans 14 gives permission, then are we not permitted? If one day is like another (except the Sabbath) then can we regard these holidays.

If not, we must also refuse to celebrate our birthday to be consistent, right? If not right, then what is the difference?


----------



## bob (Nov 7, 2006)

I believe there can be a fine line between participation and usage of customs, observances, and symbols of pagan designation. I certainly do not want to come across as scorning or disagreeable toward those that have drawn a firm line over this area. There is no sin intrinsically in drawing lines that are more drawn more sharply than the Scriptures, however we need to be certain that if we are drawing these lines of our own devices that we do not attribute to ourselves a greater sense of spirituality than we attribute to those who chose to differ. 

There are a couple of issues that are fundamentally important to the issue of observing customs and utilizing symbols that we know are not of Christian origin that make for interesting contemplation and discussion.

One such issue is to consider to what extent must we consider our conscience to be bound by the unbeliever or even by Christians with unbalanced positions. We know that lost men turn all truth into lie and that man left to his devices will defile all days, all customs, and all objects. I would opt to disdain from symbols and customs that I know to be sinful and offensive as they are relative to the culture in which I live. For example, I would be careful to not to raise my middle finger at somebody because of the immediate connotation of just such a motion. Is there anything intrinsically wrong with raising the middle finger? Well, no, but such an action has an immeditate interpretation and we should avoid every appearance of evil. I would object if a group of Christians determined to redeem the use of the middle finger by using it as a means of greeting one another with a holy kiss. "Well, Mr. Pagan, when I gave that man "the finger" I was saying 'I love you in Christ!'". If I was a missionary to some country where people culturally were raised to wave to their friends in such a matter I would probably drop my sensitivity to the raised middle finger.

The Scriptures are clear in the matter of observing days, customs, and feasts - If you observe it, observe it to the Lord. Our consciences are not bound by the superstitions of others. We know that there is but One God and that idols are actually nothing in the world. (I Cor 8) I had a believer who was appalled that I would host a bonfire on my property for the church family. His opinion was that the original bonfire was established by ancient Druids who would gather and burn sticks and bones late in the fall and take one of the burning fagots and light the hearth fire, believing that the fire then would keep the evil spirits away. Well, maybe they did. So what? We were not gathering to worship the fire or to take home burning branches to keep away spirit. 

I tend to agree with Kevin in regard to Christmas and even Halloween. I live in the rural midwest and as I work as a carpenter, have had the opportunity to work in hundreds if not thousands of different homes. I have yet to hear a conversation regarding Christmas or Halloween observances that have anything remotely to do with Marduk, Nimrod, and Samhain. Whatever relevance modern symbols had to these pagan idols has been lost except in the minds of some saints. 

I enjoy each fall carving pumpkins with my kids. While we don't typically do this on Halloween, we do have an annual tradition of carving pumpkins, baking one and making pies and bars, and roasting the seeds. We all look forward to this simple tradition of ours. We once invited some Christians over for supper who saw our pumpkins and were horrified that I would so endulge myself. "Your neighbors will think you are Satan worshippers!" they said. I answered that I doubted that anyone ever had that thought previously unless it was another Christian driving by with views like themselves. We discussed the issue in-depth that evening and while I am certain they have never carved one, at least they are bit more tolerant toward me!

The lost man may certainly wish to cast dirt upon believers for observing various things, but since when have we been told to allow the scorning unbeliever to be the arbitrator of what is true and false? Why are they dictating to us what we can or cannot do? I've never had an unbeliever tell me that a Christian should observe Christmas. Most unbelievers, if pressed, actually think it's a Christian holiday observing the birth of Christ. I've never run across to many unbelievers that have read the Puritans.

As one who believes that it is permissible to smoke or drink in moderation, I realize that some of my more legalistic brethren have in no uncertain terms proclaimed abstention as the position of choice. If a lost man sees me buying a box of Samuel Adams and scorns my profession of faith, should I feel a tinge of guilt? I wouldn't and don't. I would use the occasion to better explain what the Scriptures teach on the subject and to point out his need to be freed from the bondange of sin. It is wrong to flaunt our liberty and we must be certain not to wound the conscience of those who are weak. Perhaps there are some who are conscious of the idols surrounding Christmas and other who still view the Prohibition as a great victory for the church. We need to be careful while realizing that the gospel has freed us from bondage of such things and that on the other hand, we need not let men judge us concerning such things. If you observe the day, observe it to the Lord. Above all, remember that we shall each one give account of ourselves before the Lord and that we ought not judge one another in such things, nor should we be a stumbling block for others.


----------



## Kevin (Nov 7, 2006)

Thanks Trevor. Some real interesting ideas to think about vis missions. I know that missonaries in the early church did exactly that they "redemed" days and places for Christ thus showing the newly converted that Christ was more then the old gods of paganism.

Ironicly these 'active sermon illustrations' that were so effective at turning real pagans away from superstition and toward Christ are today the very things that moderns cite as 'proof of paganism'.


----------



## PresReformed (Nov 7, 2006)

trevorjohnson said:


> If Romans 14 gives permission, then are we not permitted? If one day is like another (except the Sabbath) then can we regard these holidays.



Paul is speaking of Jewish Holy Days in Romans 14, nothing else. There have been no other Holy Days since the beginning of time and since those have ceased there remains only the Lord's Day.


----------



## LadyFlynt (Nov 7, 2006)

PresReformed said:


> Paul is speaking of Jewish Holy Days in Romans 14, nothing else. There have been no other Holy Days since the beginning of time and since those have ceased there remains only the Lord's Day.


----------



## LadyFlynt (Nov 7, 2006)

Bob, based on what you are saying then the Jews should not have bared their necks to die, but rather should have given token offerings to Ceasar as god. They should not have died for setting up high places as they were being culturally accepting and it should have been seen as a positive thing. The calf they set up was as an image of God...they were being cultural and were (in thier minds) doing it in observance to the Lord. They were only spoiling the heathens like they spoiled the Egyptians....


:sigh:


----------



## Kevin (Nov 7, 2006)

LadyFlynt said:


> Bob, based on what you are saying then the Jews should not have bared their necks to die, but rather should have given token offerings to Ceasar as god. They should not have died for setting up high places as they were being culturally accepting and it should have been seen as a positive thing. The calf they set up was as an image of God...they were being cultural and were (in thier minds) doing it in observance to the Lord. They were only spoiling the heathens like they spoiled the Egyptians....
> 
> 
> :sigh:



Ahh, no.

Bob's post was not about worshipping false gods. Read it again.


----------



## Pergamum (Nov 7, 2006)

Does anyone here celebrate their birthdays....but doesn't like Thanksgiving or Christmas?


Or, their anniversaries...but accuses his brethren of paganism?




Paul took a vow and shaved his head....was he a compromiser who should have practiced a stricter view of separation?


----------



## LadyFlynt (Nov 7, 2006)

There is nothing wrong with a day of thanksgiving...in fact, there is precedence for it. An anniversary is the celebration of a covenant. A birth was always a cause for celebration...as to celebrating every year, well, we don't make a big deal out of it, we let the child choose dinner and make brownies and are thankful the Lord blessed us...the end.


----------



## tewilder (Nov 7, 2006)

Kevin said:


> Trust me if you asked 1000 random christmas shoppers what christmas is all about you might get a wide range of replys from crass commercialism to the 'real meaning' type of answers but no one will say it is a mid-winter pagan festival.



At my work it is the mid-winter pagan festival. That is the only reason we can get it off. Just like Turkey Day and Spring Break, the holiday is only permitted if it is not Christian.


----------



## Pergamum (Nov 7, 2006)

AHA!!! CAUGHT YOU....

You are honoring non-prescribed days. You are making traditions that are not Bilbical.

And yet, if I exchange gifts and use an arbitrary day (I know, Jesus wasn't born on Dec. 25th) and I like evergreens....than I am dancing with Rome.


----------



## LadyFlynt (Nov 7, 2006)

There is a difference to only allowing scripturally prescribed days and participating in pagan prescribed days.

I'm on a forum with over 6000 members worldwide...most of them will ascribe the tree to the pagan religions and the celebration of both the winter solstice and a babylonian god....including Christians. The Christians that don't either blatantly admit it is but use it anyhow or are ignorant...either way, they are very few in number. Welcome to the real world.


----------



## Kevin (Nov 7, 2006)

LadyFlynt said:


> There is a difference to only allowing scripturally prescribed days and participating in pagan prescribed days.
> 
> I'm on a forum with over 6000 members worldwide...most of them will ascribe the tree to the pagan religions and the celebration of both the winter solstice and a babylonian god....including Christians. The Christians that don't either blatantly admit it is but use it anyhow or are ignorant...either way, they are very few in number. Welcome to the real world.



All that proves is that the neo-pagan propaganda has worked well! The revisionism of the 20th cent neo-pagans has tried to find connections where none exists, even claiming halloween and samhain are connected.

These modern pagans remind me of the AIM (American Indian Movement) activists who re-created long dead practices that have their roots in a John Ford western not in historic Amerind spirituality. A visit to a modern Pow-Wow (big one in Chattanooga area every year) will show all kinds of (invented) "spiritualism" that the practitioners will ernestly present as "authentic native spirituality" that is less than 50 years old.

Neo-pagans and wiccan's are the same, most of their practices are very new. They 'claim' to be the heirs of ancient druidic (or some such) practices. Don't be fooled. They make most of the stuff up. The real pagan practices of pre-christian Europe can only be guessed at. Just because a self-described inter-net pagan says a tree has some ancient role in his (made-up) religion don't buy it.


----------



## ADKing (Nov 7, 2006)

Kevin said:


> For instence what do you call the days of the week? Do you honour the moon godess by calling the second day Monday, the sun god by calling the first day Sunday?



I found this quote in the Free Presbyterian Magazine today (from the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland in 1897). 

_The Name "Sunday"--We regret that through a printer's mistake this word got into a heading of one of our "Notes and Comments" in last number. We took occassion in the first issue of this magazine to express disapprobation of the name "Sunday" as of heathen origin and significance. It was customary in Pagan times to worship the natural sun, as a god, on a special day of the week, and, therefore, that day was called "Sun-day". These times, we would hope, are now past. God in his word has set apart a day for man's rest and his own worship, and has given it the name Sabbath. All, therefore, who prefer the heathen to the Scriptural name are, consciously or unconsciously, displaying a lack of revrence for the Bible, the Sabbath, and the Lord of the Sabbath. For our part, we would fain erase the name, Sunday, out of the English dictionary, and relegate it to the list of ancient barbarisms. Its widely prevalent use is far from creditable to individuals and communities that boast of their Christian civilisation. To any of our readers who are in the habit of using the word we would say "Don't use it again."_


----------



## NaphtaliPress (Nov 7, 2006)

I prefer Lord's Day as well since we have that NT name given it, but why use Monday or the others either? David after all refused even to take the false gods' names upon his lips (Ps 16:4). This view was rejected though by our Reformers I think; at least I recall Second Scots Reformer Westminster Divine Robert Baillie chatising the Brownist for taking essentially the Quaker view on the names for the days of the week. This is why I think Gillespie's point on such matters is a very important one. If we don't allow that kind of test (whether we agree in one instance or not) I would think you would have to be with the Quakers and Brownists on this one.


----------



## NaphtaliPress (Nov 7, 2006)

I don't have a Baillie quote to hand but below Gillespie refers to the rejection of the heathen names for the days of the week as a papist practice (Doh! what to do now!):
"Yea, they [the papists] think that Christian men are bound to abhor the very phrases and words of heretics, which they use. Yea, they condemn the very heathenish names of the days of the week imposed after the names of the planets, Sunday, Monday, etc." EPC, 3.3.9.190-191 (NP, 1993).


----------



## LadyFlynt (Nov 10, 2006)

Regardless of if it is revived or just continuing...the point is the same. A pagan practice that is currently being practiced by pagans. Regardless of variety.


----------



## Peter (Nov 10, 2006)

I think this is what could happen when you combine the regulative principle and dominion theology. The RP dictates we limit the worship of God to the bible. DT dictates we base everything in culture and the secular sciences on the bible. The RP says if its not in the bible let's toss it out; DT says whatever it is let's apply the bible to it. When you synthesize the two principles you get a negative science with its object being all of life and the result is biblicism and antagonism to anything non-christian. I've collected some vague and unformed thoughts on this and, briefly, I think the problem is 1st that DT is misguided. The bible has important things to say in many areas of life but it shouldnt be used as a primary source for anything except theology. 2nd the RPW is being expanded beyond its true scope. God himself has instituted the acceptable way of worship to maintain his Lordship and keep his holy name pure from the corrupt imaginations of man. We should not venture beyond what he has appointed here, but God has left the rest of life to the light of nature.

Why should we worry about vestiges of paganism in our culture? For one, I think this attitude betrays an under appreciation of the 'weak and beggarly elements' God used to prepare the heathen world for the coming of Christ. Many pagan religions approach the excellence of Christianity in a shadowy way and there is much to be admired in their cultural acheivements, such as the philosophy of the Greeks, the law of the Romans and the familism of the Germans. Without these blessings of common grace Christianity would have died before it got started. On the other hand, insofar as pagan Christmas is a holiday or "holy day" to be on par with the Sabbath, its a human addition to worship and should be rejected as idolatry.


----------



## LadyFlynt (Nov 10, 2006)

Again...apples and oranges, Peter. Philosophy, law, etc...are different than idols.


----------



## BJClark (Nov 10, 2006)

LadyFlynt,

So what SHOULD people call the days of the week??

What is the other alternative?

Day 1, day 2, day 3, day 4, day 5, day 6, the Sabbath??


----------



## ADKing (Nov 10, 2006)

BJClark said:


> LadyFlynt,
> 
> So what SHOULD people call the days of the week??
> 
> ...



Actually if one were to adopt this model (not that I am necessarily suggesting it) the order should instead read: Sabbath, Day 2, Day 3, Day 4, Day 5, Day 6, Day 7.


----------

