# Gambling



## Founded on the Rock (Apr 6, 2006)

I have a question on gambling... Is it a sin in every instance?

I love the game of poker, I really do. And I play the game even when money is not involved. Whenever I do play (which is not very often) I play in a $10 buy-in with friends. 

My argument is that I would be spending that $10 on gas money and dinner otherwise. Is there anything wrong with gambling with small amounts of money, with friends, periodically.


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## tdowns (Apr 6, 2006)

*It\'s only gambling.....*

If it's a game of chance....poker is a game of skill.......

Actually, there is a thread on this somewhere, if you find it, you could continue it there.

I think this is a good one. Not too long, good comments.

http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=14353&page=1

[Edited on 4-6-2006 by tdowns007]


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## BobVigneault (Apr 6, 2006)

I made it a life principle of mine to never gamble and I haven't and most likely never will. I have searched and tried to make my stand biblical but I can't. There is not much of an extrinsic argument against it. In fact there is a better argument made FOR gambling.

The best argument against comes from a discussion of stewardship. Is gambling a wise use of your money? According to Ephesians 4, the reason we work is to make money and the reason we make money is to feed and help the poor and needy. I could say that money spent gambling is money not given to help the poor. However, this same argument could be made about money spent on entertainment. 

So it comes down to a matter of conviction. To this the scripture says to be fully convinced in your own mind that whatever you are doing, make sure it is Christ honoring. 

If ten dollars to get into a poker game will buy you ten dollars worth of entertainment then you are fine unless you think entertainment is bad.

Is risking 10 dollars in a poker game different than risking 10 dollars in a medium to high risk stock?

These are stewardship questions. In my humble opinion


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## tdowns (Apr 6, 2006)

*Stocks*

Is risking 10 dollars in a poker game different than risking 10 dollars in a medium to high risk stock?


I'm with you Bob, but, I think the stocks are not a good analogy, because everyone can win in that situation, in a poker game, you want at least most the people to lose their money.

I think what others mentioned on the other thread is good though, like entering a tournament of golf, or skateboarding or anything else, there is an entry fee, and the winners get money from that fee. That's what poker is like in my opinion.

I do like the game myself, but have a very limited fund for an occasional game because for me, I can't lose very much money, not in my budget, so I only play very small buyins and with friends that I know are doing the same.

I like the entertainment angle you represent.


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## BobVigneault (Apr 6, 2006)

> I'm with you Bob, but, I think the stocks are not a good analogy, because everyone can win in that situation, in a poker game, you want at least most the people to lose their money.



Someone is losing in the stock market so others can win. I lost thousands 3 years ago in my 401k. Everyone can win but there are no guarantees. Gambling is gambling if there is risk involved. There is definitely risk in the market, even a conservative, low yield mutual fund.


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## Founded on the Rock (Apr 6, 2006)

Thanks for the advice.

I certainly think if someone beings to become addicted or bets foolish amounts of money that it can become very dangerous but just occasionaly playing for fun (the money aspect is an added incentive but not the reason I play) is fine. I just wanted to see what others on the board felt on the situation.

I stopped playing and actually cancelled over $200 in debts because my conscience would not permit me to play for 4 or 5 months. Now as I begin to re-evaluate the situation, I don't see anything wrong with playing for entertainment purposes as long as lust for money does not enter into the equation.


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## Mike (Apr 6, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Founded on the Rock_
> I have a question on gambling... Is it a sin in every instance?
> 
> I love the game of poker, I really do. And I play the game even when money is not involved. Whenever I do play (which is not very often) I play in a $10 buy-in with friends.
> ...


There is nothing in the Bible that would bind the Christian to not gamble whatsoever.


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## ANT (Apr 6, 2006)

You would have to look at local/state laws as well. I have played poker for a while once a week with around 6 other guys with a $3 buy in. It brings the pot to $21. The laws in FL. says that the pot cannot be over $20. Whoever wins the game, gives the 2nd place winner his money back for lasting until 2nd place. This brings the pot down to $18, and there it is ... legal.

I play with a couple police officers, and this is the way we play.

Sometimes I play a game where the pot is bigger (I try not to do it alot). It's just a matter of obeying the governing authority that God has placed over us.

My


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## Scott Shahan (Apr 6, 2006)

I just had a discussion about this with a few of my friends, we had a disagreement over some of our friends playing poker on the weekends, I personally think these guys are blowing their witness, it sets a bad example for others. Gambling has the potential to turn into a addiction. This world is full of people addicted to gambling. It starts off just as a casual thing then a monthly thing then it turns into a weekly thing until one is Hooked on it. I know several people who have destroyed their lives by gambling. It first started out innocent all addictions start that way. People that play around with sin are playing with fire. Those that have this problem will rationalize and justify anything they do. I think Bob mentioned it is a stewardship issue and I would have to agree. I told these friends of mine that I could not remember the last time I ever saw in my church bulletin a weekly poker night at the pastor's house, and for that matter any church that I have gone to. The world is watching believers on how they live and if they do not see a difference in the way we live what is the big deal then about Jesus. The Body of Christ should be living differently then the rest of the world; the world needs to see it. Just my


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## tdowns (Apr 6, 2006)

*Bingo!!!*

No poker, but lots of Bingo in church bulletins....not ours though. 

Yeah, Bob I know what you're saying about risk, but investing in a company is still different than gambling I think.

[Edited on 4-6-2006 by tdowns007]


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## Scott Shahan (Apr 6, 2006)

[Edited on 06-07-2006 by Scott Shahan]


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## mgeoffriau (Apr 7, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Scott Shahan_
> Gambling has the potential to turn into a addiction.



What doesn't? 

[Edited on 4-7-2006 by mgeoffriau]


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## Scott Shahan (Apr 7, 2006)

Christian liberty isn't a license to sin.. it is a license not to sin.. some vices are more detrimental to peoples lives then others. Just because I have the liberty to go smoke crack dosen't mean I am going to go and do it. Maybe I can try some controlled crack smoking. The point that I was trying to say is that there are "powers" in the world that have the ability to enslave people. Playing around with such powers might not be so wise. The alcoholic who thinks he contols his drinking is really being controlled by his drinking. The guy who is sitting down at the casino every weekend thinks he's in control of what he is doing but he is really being controlled by his addiction. It is a illusion that one thinks they are in control when they are really being controlled. 

[Edited on 06-07-2006 by Scott Shahan]

[Edited on 06-07-2006 by Scott Shahan]


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## mgeoffriau (Apr 7, 2006)

I agree -- liberty (both in the particular Christian sense as well as the larger meaning) is freedom to act rightly.

But it seemed to me that you were arguing that gambling is so potentially addictive that everyone should stay away from it. Thus it would no longer be an issue of Christian liberty, but instead duty.

If it is in fact a matter of Christian liberty, I don't understand on what grounds you can argue that all Christians _ought_ to stay away from it. If it is morally imperative to not gamble, then it is no longer an issue of Christian liberty.


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## Scott Shahan (Apr 7, 2006)

Mark,

This issue comes down to personal conviction. Your right I am bias about this issue and do argue against gambling. I don't see this behavior as Christ honoring. Is it a selfish motive to gamble? Is it what can I get? How much can I win? (could this be greed masqueraded by what we would call ambition). Gambling is all about the self, self for self. The idea is when sitting down at the poker table is "what can I get" and not "what can I give". No one says I want to give these guys my $50, but rather hey I can get their $50. Gambling to me is selfishness. And selfishness is sin. I have only seen more negative from this behavior than positive. People play in hopes of "winning," all I am saying is that they are putting their hope in the wrong thing. Hope should be put in the Lord. Is gambling being a good sterward of the money that the Lord has blessed me with? This isn't about some guilt trip this is just about seeking the truth. I can be and might be totally of my "rocker" on this issue of gambling. Here is one example that I saw last time I was in Vegas, you can now plug in your credit card to the slot machine and play all day long and if your lucky to have a pocket full of credit cards you can play all week long and then go home with all your cards maxed out and then file bankruptcy. What is going on here with this picture? Is this a fruit of the Spirit? Is this godliness at work? Are there any virtues that are in play when one engages in gambling. Some stories of the folks that have won the Power Ball end up to be tragic stories. What appeared to be a blessing in winning the $$$ ended up really to be a curse. Happiness isn't found in the next "fix" , but rather found in the Lord. Or what Martyn Loyd Jones said in his exposition on the sermon on the mount "righteousness always preseads happiness".

[Edited on 06-07-2006 by Scott Shahan]


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## Contra_Mundum (Apr 7, 2006)

I tend to oppose the idea of gambling, especially the whole concept of lottery. That, to me is pandering to greed of persons. But at the same time, I recognize that there needs to be a nuanced approach to this question. The principles of _entertainment, risk, and winners/losers_ all need to function in the answer.

The following link is _very helpful,_ it is balanced, slightly opinioned, but not heavy-handed: http://www.opc.org/qa.html?question_id=177 . It shows there is serious thinking going on the subject.

[Edited on 4-7-2006 by Contra_Mundum]


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## Scott Shahan (Apr 7, 2006)

thanks for that article, it sums up my position on the issue.


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## mgeoffriau (Apr 7, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Scott Shahan_
> This issue comes down to personal conviction.





> _Originally posted by Scott Shahan_
> I don't see this behavior as Christ honoring.



I'm not sure that these two statements are compatable.

If it's not honoring to Christ, then it doesn't come down to personal conviction. And if it does come down to personal conviction, then there must be circumstances where it is honoring to Christ, or at the very least, not dishonoring to Christ.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. But you seem to be saying that it is your conviction that it is not only wrong for you, but that it is wrong for all Christians. You acknowledge that you might be wrong about this, but ultimately you believe it is wrong for all Christians. 

Is this a fair summary of your position?

What is difficult to me about this issue is that most of the arguments concern the greed involved in gambling, and I honestly believe that this does not apply to my own situation (home games involving very little money, with a small fixed entry fee, and no re-buys [paying extra for more chips when you lose all of your initial stack]).

Do I believe that if I were to spend a lot of my money on poker, with the expectation of remuneration, that it might become sin? Absolutely -- and for this reason, I only play home games among friends, and occasionally for free on the internet.


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## gwine (Apr 7, 2006)

I wonder where raffles fit in. A couple years ago my son was selling raffle tickets for the swim club of the college he attends to help raise money for their annual swim trip. I choose not to buy any tickets but someone (whose name I will omit) , a person who would never normally do such a thing, did buy a ticket (it was $5), making me wonder ...

Admittedly it was a secular group, the money was insignificant and the prized were not substantial, but where would you draw the line? It seemed easier for me to draw it at - no, I won't, but I'll give a donation if you ask - but I am curious at how this scenario would play out here on the PB.


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## MeanieCalvinist (Apr 8, 2006)

I enjoy playing Poker personally; I understand that many have a problem with the idea. I am not convinced that it is a sin to play. I do understand that there are those who can become addicted to such a game waste their earnings and that is definitely sinful. 

Poker is definitely not a game of "luck" it is a game of skill and can aid in keeping the mind sharp. I have heard of people using the game to manipulate a prospective business relationship; they will play the game to learn how to "play" the potential business relation to their best interest. It is believed that you can learn a lot about a person and how they may react under certian situations which I believe is sinful also.. 
I do not consider it a sin to play poker with the right mindset. Maybe I am wrong

Please feel free to correct me if you do believe that this is wrong. I am open to correction in this.


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## Scott Shahan (Apr 9, 2006)

One question might be is; "Is it possible to play poker without the money"? What are you getting out of playing poker for money? What's it do for you? Would the game do the same for you if there wasn't any money involved? Can it be "entertainment" without the money? Where is the line drawn when we talk about "greed"? Can you gamble $10 and not be in greed, or if you gamble $100 then we would call this greed? What determines what is greed? Is it a certain dollar amount? So is it ok to gamble $10 a hand in poker and not be into greed, and if a guy was gambling $20 then we would say this is greed. Who says, who draws up the lines on christian liberty? This is like drinking, it is ok to drink alcohol, scripture is not against drinking alcohol. Scripture is against the sin of drunkeness, and in order to fall into the sin of drunkeness one first needs to drink. So if you drink there is a chance/possibility of getting into the sin of drunkeness. So who determines what is drunkeness? It maybe 3 glasses of wine for one guy and five for the next guy. A guy might have one glass of wine with his meal and there is nothing wrong with that he might have two more glasses of wine and now we would say that he is in the wrong because now he is drunk. But if you do not drink you can never get drunk. If I don't gamble I cannot get myself into some of the sins that go with gambling. So how does one discern if he/she is abusing their "christian liberty". Some would say that it is up to the individual to decide for himself, that's his "liberty". Well there really isn't any accountability with that kind of thinking. And it would be hard to be able to stand corrected by someone, when one is making up his "own" mind on what is right and what is wrong. Now this is sounding like it's all just relative, "what is right for me might not be right for you, and what is wrong for you might not be what is wrong for me. All sinners are great at rationalizing and justifying what they do, everyone is guilty of this, in one degree or another. I talked with my pastor today about this issue and the questions that I began with, were the questions that he told me to ask you.


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## mgeoffriau (Apr 9, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Scott Shahan_
> Well there really isn't any accountability with that kind of thinking. And it would be hard to be able to stand corrected by someone, when one is making up his "own" mind on what is right and what is wrong.



Seems to me that you are leaving out a rather large part of the Christian life and sanctification: the work of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a Christian.

Is the conscience of no value to the Christian?


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## Scott Shahan (Apr 9, 2006)

I'm done with the disscussion. The Holy Spirit lets the believer know that he needs accountability. It is wise to seek out godly counsel from others. To think that one can live the Chistian life of and by himself is foolishness. Christianity is lived out in community, it's not about isolation, or individualistic, or what call "lone ranger" christianity. The christian needs to be aware that he/she can fall into self/deception at certain times and therefor needs others to help him. We have the ability to fool ourselves and conscience should be quite aware of this truth. 

[Edited on 06-07-2006 by Scott Shahan]


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## mgeoffriau (Apr 10, 2006)

Ok, I'm not sure what just happened. I'm sorry you feel the need to leave the discussion.

I think you are presenting a strawman of my position. Recognizing the value of the work of the Holy Spirit in a believer's heart to convict him of sin is not promoting "lone ranger christianity."

Nor is it good, I think, to reduce the work of the Holy Spirit to "let[ting] the believer know that he needs accountability." Certainly, I don't see Scriptural basis for this limitation of the work of the Holy Spirit. And speaking experientally, there have been times when the counsel of trusted friends and family, and even spiritual leaders, would have led me to do something that inwardly I felt was wrong. I thank God for providing the Holy Spirit to guide me and protect me from sin.

[Edited on 4-10-2006 by mgeoffriau]


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## Founded on the Rock (Apr 10, 2006)

I look at it this way. I play a lot of times where no money is involved. I simply like the game. When I play with money being involved I am paying my $10 because that is the entry fee into the tournament. There is money to be won, yes. But I play for the enjoyment of the game. Simply because money is involved for the winner, doesn't mean that they are sinning.

Is it sin because there is a prospect of money to be won? I am open to correction.

I have not had time to read the articles but will do say today.


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## gwine (Apr 10, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Scott Shahan_
> <snipped out>
> But if you do not drink you can never get drunk. If I don't gamble I cannot get myself into some of the sins that go with gambling.
> ,snipped out>



While you cannot get drunk if you never drink, I would take issue with the second statement - that if you don't gamble you *cannot* get yourself into some of the sins of gambling. I'm just not sure how to explain it.

But I see gambling in two different views. One is the greed side which doesn't have anything good going for it, for it comes out of a heart that is not fixed on God. The other is the enjoyment side where it is done with others as a form of entertainment and socialization. Winning or losing is not the issue, being with others is. Maybe someone else can say it better but it is definitely possible to have a heart that is greedy and not "gamble".


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## Scott Shahan (Apr 10, 2006)

Reformed churches in our country have generally taken the position that gambling itself is a violation of God´s Law. Some (e.g., William Plumber, The Law of God) argue that it is a violation of the Third Commandment, as an abuse of God´s Providence. Many more cite the Eighth Commandment (Robert L. Dabney, Charles Hodge, and Puritan Thomas Boston in his Commentary on the Shorter Catechism). Their arguments are that God has appointed only two ways to obtain property: by labor or by gifts. Since gambling in any form gives the increase from neither of these, and takes away from our neighbor, it is necessarily sin.


The OPC's official stand on this question is found in the Westminster Larger Catechism #142 (the Westminster Standards are available here), which teaches that the Eighth Commandment forbids "wasteful gaming." To get at the full range of issues raised by gambling we should consider the full scope of things forbidden by the Eighth Commandment, as set forth in Question 142 of the Westminster Larger Catechism:



The sins forbidden in the eighth commandment, besides the neglect of the duties required, are, theft, robbery, man-stealing, and receiving anything that is stolen; fraudulent dealing, false weights and measures, removing land marks, injustice and unfaithfulness in contracts between man and man, or in matters of trust; oppression, extortion, usury, bribery, vexatious lawsuits, unjust enclosures and depopulations; engrossing commodities to enhance the price; unlawful callings, and all other unjust or sinful ways of taking or withholding from our neighbor what belongs to him, or of enriching ourselves; covetousness; inordinate prizing and affecting worldly goods; distrustful and distracting cares and studies in getting, keeping, and using them; envying at the prosperity of others; as likewise idleness, prodigality, wasteful gaming; and all other ways whereby we do unduly prejudice our own outward estate, and defrauding ourselves of the due use and comfort of that estate which God has given us.
Gerry you can't say that gamblling isn't about "winning or losing", because it is about that. Just curious Mark, Brandon, Gerry does your senior pastor at your church have poker parties at his house on Saturday nights? I am interested in knowing what the leadership of your churches think about your guy's gambling episodes. 
Once again Mark, to evade the questions that I asked about "greed". Can people have the sin of greed without gambling sure. Does gambling promote the sin of greed? I think so.... If you take the money out of the equation is it as fun to play poker? Or does the game lose its interest sinces there isn't any money to be won.
Selfishness is at play when one gambles, this can not be denied. "How much can I win"; "What can I get"; when one sees the jackpot grow the hungrier(greedier) he gets. It is a exercise in self-centeredness, I find it hard to believe that poker is a "God-centered", Christ exhaulting activity.


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## mgeoffriau (Apr 10, 2006)

Actually, yes I have played poker without money. I often play free poker online.

Is it more exciting and tense with money on the line? Sure. The stakes are higher.

I have a hard time seeing how poker is any more self-centered than any other individual sport or game. I am seeking to win and keep my opponents from winning.


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## Scott Shahan (Apr 10, 2006)

check this out; http://www.apuritansmind.com/Stewardship/ABrakelWilhelmusGamblingASin.htm

also, here's what Dr. John Piper thinks about this issue;

http://www.desiringgod.org/library/fresh_words/2005/030905.html

http://www.desiringgod.org/library/fresh_words/2003/010103.html


These paragraphs sum it up;


We are followers of Jesus. He had no place to lay his head and did not accept the demonic temptation to jump off the temple for the jackpot of instant recognition. The Calvary road is not paved with Powerball tickets, but with blood. The Church was bought once by One who refused the short cut of instant triumph. It will never be bought by those who dream of riches.

The lottery is another opportunity to pierce your soul with many pangs, and lead your children into ruin. The Bible says, "Those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. . . . Some by longing for it . . . and pierced themselves with many a pang (1 Timothy 6:9-10). In other words, the desire to be rich is suicidal. And endorsing it is cruel.

It is wrong to wager with a trust fund. And all we have, as humans, is a trust fund. Everything we have is a trust from God, to be used for his glory. "[God] himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything" (Acts 17:25). Faithful trustees may not gamble with a trust fund. They work and trade: value for value, just and fair. This is the pattern again and again in Scripture. And when you are handling the funds of another, how much more irresponsible it is to wager!

Don't play the Lottery for Bethlehem Baptist Church. We will not, I pray, salve your conscience by taking one dime of your plunder, or supporting even the thought of your spiritual suicide. Let the widow give her penny and the laborer his wage. And keep your life free from the love of money.

Pastor John
[Edited on 06-07-2006 by Scott Shahan]

[Edited on 06-07-2006 by Scott Shahan]

[Edited on 06-07-2006 by Scott Shahan]


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## Scott Shahan (Apr 10, 2006)

This is also a interesting read;

http://www.family.org/cforum/fosi/gambling/gitus/a0031146.cfm:book2:

Difficult to read articles like these and try and support gambling isn't it? When the world sees christians engaging in this activity, we (christians) might be sending the wrong message to the world. The way we live and the decisions that we make have an effect on other people. No man sin's onto himself alone. His sin touches the lives of others whether he thinks so or not.......


here's another example;

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc8.iv.x.iii.html?highlight=gambling##highlight


Martin Luther,


http://www.ccel.org/ccel/luther/good_works.vi.html?highlight=gambling##highlight

[Edited on 06-07-2006 by Scott Shahan]

[Edited on 06-07-2006 by Scott Shahan]


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## MeanieCalvinist (Apr 10, 2006)

In the articles that I have read so far I have not been convinced that playing poker is sinful at all. Playing poker is not at all like playing the lottery or buying pull-tabs, it is a game of skill. I play to win ofcourse but I am not focused on the money but rather the competition(sport of the game). I think it is a lot of fun to play while discussing theology.



[Edited on 4-11-2006 by MeanieCalvinist]


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## Scott Shahan (Apr 10, 2006)

We agree  to disagree. Godspeed to you guys.


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## Founded on the Rock (Apr 11, 2006)

After reading the posts, I would ask this question.

Do you believe poker is a game of skill, or of luck?

Now just because luck is involved does not mean that it is not a game of skill. In the same way in basketball, as the clock is running down and the player shots the ball over his head and it goes in to win the game. Was it lucky, yes, but is basketball a game of luck? no.

So then, is there a difference between poker and the lottery, bingo, etc.?


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## Scott Shahan (Apr 11, 2006)

Brandon,

It's a honest question, "Do you believe poker is a game of skill, or of luck"? I don't think that it is one or the other, but both are involved (skill & luck). 

"Is there a difference between poker and the lottery, bingo, etc"? I would say that all of these activities fall under the heading of gambling. These games are just a different manifestation of "gambling". This question is like the alcoholic saying is there a difference between vodka, Jack Daniels, budwieser, or wine? He's ok as long as he is only into drinking beer to get drunk, and then can rationalize and justify it by saying that it is "only beer" and its not "vodka". Answer; they all fall under the heading of alcohol. Or is there a difference between playboy, strip clubs, adult movies. They all fall under the heading of sexual sin, just a different manifestation of the sin. 

I only responded since I see that you started the thread, and that it was your original question. I need to exit the conversation and let someone eles enter into it. I see your arguement (christian liberty, and ones own conscience) determines if this is ok for himself/herself. It is a valid arguement, I no long have anything eles to say on this topic. The Lord's Blessings to you all, 
Scott

[Edited on 06-07-2006 by Scott Shahan]

[Edited on 06-07-2006 by Scott Shahan]


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## tcalbrecht (Mar 25, 2007)

Interesting discussion here on the matter of gambling, smoking, and drinking for the Christian.

Sinners & Saints


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## VaughanRSmith (Mar 25, 2007)

tcalbrecht said:


> Interesting discussion here on the matter of gambling, smoking, and drinking for the Christian.
> 
> Sinners & Saints


I'm really enjoying this series. Not for those who have a problem with these kind of things though


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## Theoretical (Mar 25, 2007)

It's definitely been interesting listening to these guys address various arguments on the issues. I look forward to their forthcoming epsiodes.


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