# CoG sign pre-Abraham



## MSH (Jun 9, 2017)

I am reading a book on Covenant Theology and the author makes the following statement," At each stage of the Covenant of Grace, God gives a physical sign to identify those who belong to His people." What is the physical sign that identifies God's people between the span of time separating Adam and Abraham?

Thanks!


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## malcolmmaxwell60 (Jun 9, 2017)

In the Old testament or covenant, Circumcision and the Passover. In the New testament or covenant, Baptism and the Lord's Supper 

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## Timotheos (Jun 9, 2017)

> In the Old testament or covenant, Circumcision and the Passover. In the New testament or covenant, Baptism and the Lord's Supper


Pre-Abraham???

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## greenbaggins (Jun 9, 2017)

A partial answer to this question can be found in the rainbow of the Noahic covenant. Although this is usually interpreted as a common-grace covenant made with all humanity, and not just the elect, it is still only the elect who will interpret the sign correctly (as the current attempt by the LGBTQ community to co-opt the sign gives us ample proof!). Even if this were interpreted as a partial answer, it would still not account for the time between Adam and Noah. The only other answer that could possibly fit would be the elect seed itself as the sign, or possibly aspects of the land. The only other possibility to consider is that the author is incorrect in his assessment of the time between Adam and Abraham.


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## MW (Jun 9, 2017)

A sacrament of visible entrance into the church required the separation and gathering of a visible body of people as the church, and this technically begins with the family of Abraham and comes to fruition in the nation of Israel.

Herman Witsius, the Economy of the Covenants, 2:247-248:

"The first institution of circumcision, Gen. 17:11, was in the house and family of Abraham, about the year of the world, two thousand. Circumcision was not immediately given, to be a public and universal sacrament to the whole church, in those times, but was confined to Abraham’s family. The remnant of the ancient fathers, satisfied with their sacrificial sacraments, could exercise their faith and please God, in uncircumcision, without being obliged to submit to this rite. But, after the expiration of about four centuries, when the visible churches, not of Abraham’s family, gradually apostatised to heathenism, the godly remnant being removed to the heavenly assembly; and when the republic of Israel, in the mean time, wonderfully increased, and the measure of iniquity among the nations being now full, the church was confined to Israel, and the rest of the world was rejected; and all that feared God were bound to join themselves in communion with them, by a participation of the same rites... From that time, circumcision became an universal sacrament of the church. Thus the Lord Jesus distinguishes it, as it was of the fathers, to them it was a family institution, and, as given by Moses, an universal sacrament of the church, that was to be constituted or set up, John 7:22."


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## JTB.SDG (Jun 9, 2017)

Matthew, does that mean there was no visible church before Abraham? Am I off-based in reading Genesis 4:26 as the visible church? Though it had dwindled down to a single family, I don't know what else we can conceive of in thinking of Noah's family than the visible church in his day. I love Witsius but at times have to respectfully disagree.

The rainbow was the sign of the Noahic Covenant (Gen.9). Circumcision was the sign of the Abrahamic Covenant (Gen.17). Interestingly, it was the Sabbath (not the Passover) that seems to be the sign of the Mosaic Covenant (Exod.31:12-17). The author is off-based I believe, at the very least, because he asserts that at EVERY stage in the Covenant of Grace there is a (implied: unique) covenant sign--but unless I'm mistaken, there is no sign for the Davidic Covenant.

The elements of the Covenant include the covenant ceremony (Gen.15); the covenant sign; and a covenant meal (Exod.12). BUT, it's wrong to say that every covenant, to be a true covenant, absolutely HAS to contain ALL of these elements. There's no covenant ceremony, sign, or meal in the Davidic Covenant; there's no covenant meal in the Noahic Covenant; and again, no covenant sign with the Davidic Covenant.


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## MW (Jun 10, 2017)

I agree the church is present from the first promise in Gen. 3:15, and may be visibly discerned in those who believed in the promise, but there was no formal separation from the world or organisation into a visible church state. This commenced with Abraham, who was called by God to head up a separate people, and it came to full and proper expression in "the church in the wilderness." Consider R. L. Dabney, Systematic Theology, p. 449:

"The second dividing epoch of the old dispensation was the calling of Abraham, the history of which may be seen in Gen. chap. 12 to 17. There was now an important development. All that had been given to believers remained in force, the 'Church in the house,' the Sabbath, the sacrifices, the moral law, and the promise. The most notable additions made upon the calling of Abraham were, first, the separation of the 'sons of God' from the mass of the world, as a peculiar people, and the organization of a visible church-state in the tribe of Abraham; and next, the institution of a sealing ordinance, circumcision, as a badge of membership, and 'seal of the righteousness of faith.' The repeated tendency of the race, in spite of admonitions and judgments, towards apostasy and idolatry, had at length made the necessity of the visible Church separation obvious: it remained the only human means to preserve a seed to serve God. In that age of the world, every organized society unavoidably took the patriarchal form; hence the family, or clan of Abraham, became the visible Church: and the race-limit tended approximately to be the boundary between Church and world."

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## Peairtach (Jun 11, 2017)

MSH said:


> I am reading a book on Covenant Theology and the author makes the following statement," At each stage of the Covenant of Grace, God gives a physical sign to identify those who belong to His people." What is the physical sign that identifies God's people between the span of time separating Adam and Abraham?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> ...


It was a visible church by its worship and ethics. It just didn't have the benefit of a particular sign and seal of the covenant. Most of the time baptism and circumcision aren't very "visible" to outsiders, anyway, although the outsiders may be well aware that they've been applied to professing believers and their children.

It is interesting how the administration of tne covenant develops, and how the Lord alters the helps and means of grace, as the Church moves from the womb to infancy to adolescence to maturity, if we can speak in these terms.

Clearly the Lord did not view circumcision as a needed means of grace until the time of Abraham.

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## Timotheos (Jun 11, 2017)

Answer: 1689 federalism

The CoG was only revealed and promised in the OC but concluded in the NC. So there is no CoG sign necessary Pre-Abraham since it was only promised at that point in places like Gen. 3:15.



LBC 7:3 said:


> This covenant [CoG] is revealed in the gospel; first of all to Adam in the promise of salvation by the seed of the woman, and afterwards by farther steps, until the full discovery thereof was completed in the New Testament;...


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## MSH (Jun 12, 2017)

Thanks for all the great and insightful replies! It would appear that the author's statement was incorrect. It would seem based in what has been said thus far that the church pre-Abraham would have been identified by their belief in the Promise and the worship and lifestyle they lived as a result of that faith.




greenbaggins said:


> A partial answer to this question can be found in the rainbow of the Noahic covenant. Although this is usually interpreted as a common-grace covenant made with all humanity, and not just the elect, it is still only the elect who will interpret the sign correctly (as the current attempt by the LGBTQ community to co-opt the sign gives us ample proof!). Even if this were interpreted as a partial answer, it would still not account for the time between Adam and Noah. The only other answer that could possibly fit would be the elect seed itself as the sign, or possibly aspects of the land. The only other possibility to consider is that the author is incorrect in his assessment of the time between Adam and Abraham.


 
The author does teach in this book that the Noahic covenant is a common-grace covenant.





JTB.SDG said:


> Matthew, does that mean there was no visible church before Abraham? Am I off-based in reading Genesis 4:26 as the visible church? Though it had dwindled down to a single family, I don't know what else we can conceive of in thinking of Noah's family than the visible church in his day. I love Witsius but at times have to respectfully disagree.
> 
> The rainbow was the sign of the Noahic Covenant (Gen.9). Circumcision was the sign of the Abrahamic Covenant (Gen.17). Interestingly, it was the Sabbath (not the Passover) that seems to be the sign of the Mosaic Covenant (Exod.31:12-17). The author is off-based I believe, at the very least, because he asserts that at EVERY stage in the Covenant of Grace there is a (implied: unique) covenant sign--but unless I'm mistaken, there is no sign for the Davidic Covenant.
> 
> The elements of the Covenant include the covenant ceremony (Gen.15); the covenant sign; and a covenant meal (Exod.12). BUT, it's wrong to say that every covenant, to be a true covenant, absolutely HAS to contain ALL of these elements. There's no covenant ceremony, sign, or meal in the Davidic Covenant; there's no covenant meal in the Noahic Covenant; and again, no covenant sign with the Davidic Covenant.


 
Jon, could you elaborate a little on how the Sabbath is the sign of the Mosaic Covenant? The author made the same statement but gave no explanation. Thanks!



Peairtach said:


> It was a visible church by its worship and ethics. It just didn't have the benefit of a particular sign and seal of the covenant. Most of the time baptism and circumcision aren't very "visible" to outsiders, anyway, although the outsiders may be well aware that they've been applied to professing believers and their children.
> 
> It is interesting how the administration of tne covenant develops, and how the Lord alters the helps and means of grace, as the Church moves from the womb to infancy to adolescence to maturity, if we can speak in these terms.
> 
> ...


 
Richard, great points! I like the emphasis on the progression of the Church and its signs. So true as well when it comes to the world and their lack of awareness regarding our having the covenant sign applied to us.



MW said:


> I agree the church is present from the first promise in Gen. 3:15, and may be visibly discerned in those who believed in the promise, but there was no formal separation from the world or organisation into a visible church state. This commenced with Abraham, who was called by God to head up a separate people, and it came to full and proper expression in "the church in the wilderness." Consider R. L. Dabney, Systematic Theology, p. 449:
> 
> "The second dividing epoch of the old dispensation was the calling of Abraham, the history of which may be seen in Gen. chap. 12 to 17. There was now an important development. All that had been given to believers remained in force, the 'Church in the house,' the Sabbath, the sacrifices, the moral law, and the promise. The most notable additions made upon the calling of Abraham were, first, the separation of the 'sons of God' from the mass of the world, as a peculiar people, and the organization of a visible church-state in the tribe of Abraham; and next, the institution of a sealing ordinance, circumcision, as a badge of membership, and 'seal of the righteousness of faith.' The repeated tendency of the race, in spite of admonitions and judgments, towards apostasy and idolatry, had at length made the necessity of the visible Church separation obvious: it remained the only human means to preserve a seed to serve God. In that age of the world, every organized society unavoidably took the patriarchal form; hence the family, or clan of Abraham, became the visible Church: and the race-limit tended approximately to be the boundary between Church and world."


 
Matthew, very enlightening! Thanks! I am not familiar with the phrase, " a Church in the house." Is this as easy as that before there where organized places of worship that believers just worshiped in their homes?



Timotheos said:


> Answer: 1689 federalism
> 
> The CoG was only revealed and promised in the OC but concluded in the NC. So there is no CoG sign necessary Pre-Abraham since it was only promised at that point in places like Gen. 3:15.


 
Tim, are you saying that the CoG wasn't operational in the Old Testament? Is the New Covenant and CoG one and the same? Thanks!


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## MW (Jun 12, 2017)

MSH said:


> I am not familiar with the phrase, " a Church in the house." Is this as easy as that before there where organized places of worship that believers just worshiped in their homes?



It is probably not focused on places of worship so much as the society that worships. The "house" is referring to the household or family.

Prior to Abraham the promise is traced within households with a specific focus on the line of descent, as seen in the two genealogies which stand out prominently in the narrative of Gen. 1-11. Abraham received the promise of a collectively organised people -- an holy nation -- with a divine blessing upon it. By the end of Genesis we read of the "tribes of Israel."


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## JTB.SDG (Jun 12, 2017)

Shane,

On the sign of the Mosaic Covenant being the Sabbath; it's quite clear just from what the Lord tells Moses in Exodus 31:12-17: "It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel. . ."


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## MSH (Jun 13, 2017)

MW said:


> It is probably not focused on places of worship so much as the society that worships. The "house" is referring to the household or family.
> 
> Prior to Abraham the promise is traced within households with a specific focus on the line of descent, as seen in the two genealogies which stand out prominently in the narrative of Gen. 1-11. Abraham received the promise of a collectively organised people -- an holy nation -- with a divine blessing upon it. By the end of Genesis we read of the "tribes of Israel."


 
Got it. Thanks!



JTB.SDG said:


> Shane,
> 
> On the sign of the Mosaic Covenant being the Sabbath; it's quite clear just from what the Lord tells Moses in Exodus 31:12-17: "It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel. . ."


 
That is simple enough. Thanks!


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