# What is required for salvation?



## Stope (Mar 23, 2016)

What is required for salvation? This is an interesting question and would love to hear thoughts on what must be taught and received...

The Heidelberg says;

Q. 2. How many things are necessary for thee to know, that thou, enjoying this comfort, mayest live and die happily?
A. Three;a the first, how great my sins and miseries are;b the second, how I may be delivered from all my sins and miseries;c the third, how I shall express my gratitude to God for such deliverance.d


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## Stope (Mar 23, 2016)

From canons of dort 

FIRST HEAD: ARTICLE 12. The elect in due time, though in various degrees and in different measures, attain the assurance of this their eternal and unchangeable election, not by inquisitively prying into the secret and deep things of God, but by observing in themselves with a spiritual joy and holy pleasure the infallible fruits of election pointed out in the Word of God - such as, a true faith in Christ, filial fear, a godly sorrow for sin, a hungering and thirsting after righteousness, etc.


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## MW (Mar 23, 2016)

Stope said:


> What is required for salvation?
> 
> The H. Confession says



The rest of the Catechism explains these three sections. In light of a previous discussion we might pause at the second section of the Catechism which explains how I may be delivered, observing the very specific teaching about Christ being true and eternal God, the natural Son of God, who took on Him the very nature of man, of the flesh and blood of the Virgin Mary.


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## Stope (Mar 23, 2016)

So what you say, in sum, is required for salvation?


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## rickclayfan (Mar 23, 2016)

Salvation cannot be viewed as a list of tasks performed or achieved that result in a person being reconciled with God. God reconciles the person to Himself. Hence, conviction and humiliation for sin, regeneration, faith in Christ, growth in holiness, etc. all accompany salvation, seeing that salvation is a work of God. However, we are not saved on account of our conviction or holiness. We are saved by the grace of God. Christ, not us, has merited salvation for us. Without holiness we shall not be saved (Heb. 12:14), but we are not to suppose that it is a condition to being saved. Instead, it is an evidence that God has saved us.


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## MW (Mar 23, 2016)

Stope said:


> So what you say, in sum, is required for salvation?



"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved."


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## Reformed Fox (Mar 23, 2016)

If we were looking for an absolute minimum this would be it.

(Of course we should not be content with the absolute minimum but that is a slightly different issue.)


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## KeithW (Mar 23, 2016)

MW said:


> Stope said:
> 
> 
> > So what you say, in sum, is required for salvation?
> ...


That verse is Acts 16:30.

Coming up with a minimum is a difficult proposition. It is best to read the entire New Testament looking for what seems to be the minimum. Here are a collection of verses on _repent and believe_.

*Repent*

God commands all men every where to repent (Acts 17:30)
if the wicked will turn from his sins (Ezekiel 18:21)
Repent and turn from your transgressions (Ezekiel 18:30)
turn from your evil ways and live (Ezekiel 33:11)
turn from our iniquities (Dan 9:13)
Jesus came to call sinners to repentance (Matt 9:13)
Jesus came to call sinners to repentance (Mark 2:17)
Jesus came to call sinners to repentance (Luke 5:31)
repentance and remission of sins should be preached (Luke 24:47)
Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38)
Repent and be converted (Acts 3:19)
repent and turn to God (Acts 26:20)
Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand (Matt 3:2)
Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand (Matt 4:17)
they preached that men should repent (Mark 6:12)
except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish (Luke 13:3)
except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish (Luke 13:5)
godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation (2 Cor 7:10)
repentance to the acknowledging of the truth (2 Tim 2:25)
*Repent and Believe*

repent and believe the gospel of the kingdom of God (Mark 1:15)
repentance toward God, and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21)
repentance from dead works and faith toward God (Hebrews 6:1)
*Believe*

He that believeth on the Son of God is not condemned (John 3:18)
he that believeth not on the Son of God is condemned already (John 3:18)
believe on Jesus whom God hath sent (John 6:29)
Neither is there salvation in any other but Jesus (Acts 4:12)
there is no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved except Jesus (Acts 4:12)
whosoever believeth in Jesus shall receive remission of sins (Acts 10:43)
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved (Acts 16:31)
confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus (Rom 10:9)
believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead (Rom 10:9)
Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God will overcome the world (1 John 5:5 NIV) 
And then to throw in something completely different, though I think just as important,


Rom. 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
But what is repentance? The Heidelberg Catechism does not describe it. The Canons Of Dordt describe _repent and believe_ as sorrow for sins and belief that there is forgiveness of sins.



Canons Of Dordt said:


> Secondly, by his Word and Spirit he certainly and effectively renews them to repentance so that they have a heartfelt and godly sorrow for the sins they have committed; seek and obtain, through faith and with a contrite heart, forgiveness in the blood of the Mediator;


But this is a narrow view of what _repent and believe_ means. Other confessions correctly include _turning_ in repentance.



Westminster Confession of Faith said:


> II. By it a sinner, out of the sight and sense, not only of the danger, but also of the filthiness and odiousness of his sins, as contrary to the holy nature and righteous law of God, and upon the apprehension of his mercy in Christ to such as are penitent, so grieves for, and hates his sins, as to turn from them all unto God, purposing and endeavoring to walk with him in all the ways of his commandments.


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## Stope (Mar 23, 2016)

Indeed Acts 16:30 but (as we saw in another thread), we can't simply just "believe" (even the demons believe). I guess the question would be a systematic Theology question of what is required/entailed in salvation? KeithW and rickclayfan those are great responses.


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## Stope (Mar 23, 2016)

After rereading your post KeithW I see that I really think you've hit the nail on the head with

Repent 
Believe / Turning

Having said that, I think there is a large amount of wrong "believing" out there - perhaps we can define proper "believing" (I think "turning" is pretty clear - well, with the exception of, a person who continues in their sin to be followed by "repentance" and the cycle that follows...)


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## Semper Fidelis (Mar 23, 2016)

I'll write more later but, for now, notice the unstated assumption that has emerged:

1. The original question was this: "What is required for salvation? This is an interesting question and would love to hear thoughts on what must be taught and received..."

The Heidelberg was quoted that dealt specifically what we need to _know_ for salvation. The answer in that particular question deals not only with initial conversion but also what a Christian ought to know in order to express our gratitude for such a deliverance.

As Matthew pointed out there are aspects of salvation in that answer (and in other parts of the HC) that deal with how one is delivered and how one expresses gratitude for our deliverance.

2. The question then became more directed as to what is, in sum, required for salvation?

Again, it was not asked what a believer needs to know but to ask what is "...required for salvation."

Now, surely, part of the answer depends upon what is being asked. What is required of _whom_? The believer? That answers the question as to how a man trusts in and is united to Christ but doesn't address the whole question of what is required for salvation if we look at it from the aspect of men being under condemnation. We could look at Romans 1-3 and see all men under condemnation and dead in their sins and trespasses and ask: how then can any man be saved? The answer to that question is actually the most fundamental issue when we consider whether man even has a Savior in Whom he can trust.

3. Matthew answered (correctly) that with respect to what God requires of man in salvation it is to believe in Jesus Christ. Now, I might add that this is true whether we are talking about initial conversion or deliverance or gratitude.

I point this out because what is now happening is that the answer to a much broader question about what is required for salvation is being narrowly construed to mean: "What's the proper thing that a person needs to believe in order to be saved?"

In other words, salvation needs to be understood in its broad context in order to make sense of the narrow context about what man needs to believe. If we don't understand what man has been saved from or why or by Whom or for what purpose then it is impposible to make sense of the narrower context of what it means to exercise saving faith.


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## Contra_Mundum (Mar 23, 2016)

"Saving" faith is distinct from a general faith, or transient faith, or historical faith--any other way of talking about "faith" in a generic or specific way not related to eternal felicity with God.

Even earthly life is impossible apart from a simple and unremarkable faith: witness the almost impossible problems of getting along certain people have, who are beset with forms of OCD and other compulsive check/recheck/repeat tics. They are hardly able to get out of bed in the morning due to a "verificational" disorder. This is a problem they are having with earthly faith, with panic-hyper-skepticism as a disorder.

So, _saving _faith is nothing other than the gift of God, Eph.2:8, a supernatural *sight* of true things, especially pertaining to personal salvation. "We walk by *faith*, and not by [physical] sight," 2Cor.5:7; cf.Jn.4:48. Jn.3:3, "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot *see* the kingdom of God," cf.L:k.8:10.

"Kingdom" is there put as a synechdoche for Christ himself, who is the proper object of saving faith. It is the apprehension of him that saves, inseparable from the growth in the "grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ," 2Pet.3:18, which is the proper result of the seed sprouting.

"*Looking *unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith." Heb.12.2

Which Christ is it, on whom you have rested everything?


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## MW (Mar 23, 2016)

This idea of seeking out a minimum belief for salvation is counter-intuitive to the Christian faith. No person goes into a marital relationship asking what is the minimum that must be known in order to be married. You engage in a commitment of trust in which you gladly receive anything and everything you can know about your spouse. The same applies with coming to Christ as Lord and Saviour, only He is in the exalted position of an authoritative teacher and expounder of the bosom of God to us. Whatever He reveals is for the glory of God and necessary for us to know and to grow in the great salvation He has accomplished.

If one takes that answer of the apostle as a "sum" (not a minimum) of saving truth, it can be opened up to form a body of divinity. Like a tent in a bag, you have to open it up and erect it if you hope to be kept from the night elements.

If one would like more specificity there is the well-worn and time-tested Sum of Saving Knowledge.


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## Semper Fidelis (Mar 23, 2016)

It occurs to me that what a lot of people are getting at when they're asking about what is required for salvation is along the lines that Matthew noted. In another thread many gave opinions (or offered the opinion of Stott) who tried to determine what, perhaps, that minimal set of propositions might be that a person needs to believe in order to be saved.

But it betrays a misunderstanding on two fronts:

1. The first misunderstanding is that saving faith is more than assent to any number of propositions. A man can know every article of the Christian faith and not have a living faith in Christ. Nicodemus was not born again and was a teacher in Israel.

2. The second misunderstanding is that we are to base our understanding of salvation by "exegeting" the experiences of those around us. We see people who seem to be following Christ to the best of their ability and desire, perhaps, that they believe enough or rightly that Christ might save them. We even love them or have strong friendships and hope that they really have trusted in Christ. We see they are in some impoverished spiritual state and hope that, somehow, they're clinging to Christ enough. So, perhaps, we construct some sort of mental checklist of all the things that a Christian ought to believe and then decide which ones it might just be OK that our loved one doesn't believe because we see in them a desire (as far as we can tell) to love Christ.

On the second point, I have to say that I can relate to the desire. Much of my family is Roman Catholic. I do not wish to conceive of any of my loved ones going to Hell because I love them. It is not my place to know whether they have clung to Christ in reality. I have shared the true Gospel with them and yet, part of me hopes that they have read the Scriptures and that, somehow, they might just be Christ's.

Yet, how can I possibly build a theology of saving faith on looking at those that I love and deciding: "Well, if they might yet be saved then perhaps all these other things that we know from Scripture might surely be important but are they _essential_?!"

The Scriptures never give us room to make decisions for the Sovereign God.

To return to my first point, the operations of the Holy Spirit are hidden. Yes we see fruits of salvation in others and we need not continually doubt that those in our Church are saved from their sins but it is not our place to take the Christian faith as a whole and then try to determine where, in the Persons of the Godhead or the nature of Christ, a true saint may just have enough faith to be saved.

In fact, this view of "faith" itself is illegitimate because it assumes that our faith (even our proper apprehension) is something that we _add_ to our salvation so that the Spirit looks at either the amount of knowledge we have or the amount of trust we have and says to us: "You have crossed the minimal bar of knowledge and trust. I know give to you the Person of Christ as your salvation."

What is saving faith after all?



> CHAPTER XIV.
> 
> Of Saving Faith.
> 
> ...



It is described here well but it would be a mistake to look at this as a checklist where I show someone who does not believe and then say to them: as soon as you meet these requirements you will be saved. What is described in this Chapter is how the Spirit works something in the heart of a believer. How the Spirit works, however, is by the ordinary means that the Church administers as Pastors preach the Word and are empowered by the Spirit or the Church administers the Sacraments. it is in the prayers of the people as the Spirit attends to their earnest pleas.

Through all of these, the Spirit sovereignly works to enliven and make the hand of a needy sinner to reach out and grab a hold of the whole Christ and His obedience and power for them and their salvation.

Yet, are all those who we think believe in Christ really saved? Is it not possible for people to be deceived about their salvation.

In all of this talk of "minimal knowledge" what strikes me is how much Christianity these days is dissonant from the warnings of Scripture. I think our default setting as we consider salvation these days is that God is really pleased with man as he makes half measures in His direction. God is love we hear and so we can't imagine that if we really want to say that we believe God or that we really want to believe that others know God just enough that God wants to save all mankind.

I think we're very different these days than most Christians have been for centuries where there was a real sense that man is very selfish and self-deceived. When I read _Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God_ and its stark warnings to those who are in the Church who are so slothful and not guarding their steps I wonder if we have so convinced ourselves of "mere Christianity" that we are deaf to the warning that Jonathan Edwards gave to that congregation.

Do we ask ourselves: are we really in the faith? Do we fear that hell might have its mouth agape and that our presumption about our salvation may be our very doom?

How do we even know that we're saved when the Scriptures themselves testify that there are those who are so certain of their salvation that they disagree with Christ on the day of judgment that they did wonderful things in His Name?

While we're busy wondering whether we've believed the minimal amount of things or shown the minimal amount of zeal have we taken our eyes off the only things that Scripture itself holds out to us as the way in which we can know that we are in the faith?

Again, it is up to the Spirit of Christ and His work of salvation and yet that work is part of a continuum of salvation. No faith is too small that is born of the Spirit that clings to Christ.

And so how can we know that we or anyone else has such faith:



> CHAPTER XVIII.
> 
> Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation.
> 
> ...



This is why salvation is not a static entity. If we really love people or desire for ourselves to know whether we are hypocrites then we need to invest in the knowledge of the Promises of Salvaiton. We need to be attending to the Word, the Sacraments, and the Prayers with zeal knowing that this is where Christ has Promised we will be built up in Him. How can we ever be assured of the things Promised if we never study what the Promises are? How can we be sure our loved ones know Christ invisibly unless they are ever brought to a place where they are taught and prayed for?

Conjecture and sentimentalism are worthless. The Living God does not permit us to ascend to inapproachable Light by the exercise of theological speculation. There is One Mediator between God and Man - the Lord Jesus Christ. We have Christ Who is like us in every way and, in Him, we have access to human history that connects us to Eternity. Let us look to the means He has offered for our salvation and for the assurance that we are saved.


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## Stope (Mar 24, 2016)

I remember hearing that once somebody asked N.W. Wright "what is the Gospel?", as in, "what would you tell a person on their death bed", and he had so many words and lofty thoughts that the Gospel became so heady and academic that he couldn't answer the question.

All that to say, I appreciate your many words and sharing your disdain with your view of the modern church and how they like C.S. Lewis more than Jonathan Edwards, but at the end of the day I see you are unable to answer the original question of "What is required for salvation?" (notice its not "whats the least amount one can believe and be saved?" its not "how heretical can one be and still be saved?" - simply "What is required for salvation?").

If you were to ask me i would say this:
Repenting, believing, turning and the Spirit is active in your life

Blessings!


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## MW (Mar 24, 2016)

Stope said:


> If you were to ask me i would say this:
> Repenting, believing, turning and the Spirit is active in your life



There is nothing there about Jesus Christ. It sounds like a self-help program. No good news at all!


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## Stope (Mar 24, 2016)

"Dont say 528 words when 11 will do"


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## Semper Fidelis (Mar 24, 2016)

Stope said:


> I remember hearing that once somebody asked N.W. Wright "what is the Gospel?", as in, "what would you tell a person on their death bed", and he had so many words and lofty thoughts that the Gospel became so heady and academic that he couldn't answer the question.
> 
> All that to say, I appreciate your many words and sharing your disdain with your view of the modern church and how they like C.S. Lewis more than Jonathan Edwards, but at the end of the day I see you are unable to answer the original question of "What is required for salvation?" (notice its not "whats the least amount one can believe and be saved?" its not "how heretical can one be and still be saved?" - simply "What is required for salvation?").
> 
> ...



You are simply unbelievable. You ask what the Scriptures teach concerning what is required of salvation.

The entire Confession of Faith and Catechisms are summarized by this: What man is to believe concerning God and what duty God requires of man.

Yet, this is unpacked into dozens of Chapters. There are pages and pages and pages devoted to your answer.

I answered your question and it has now become obvious to me that you are not interested in serious Reformed answers to the questions you are posing.

You are not on your deathbed. We are in a board trying to come to a mature understanding of these things but you are disinterested. You signed up on this Board saying that you subscribe to the Westminster Confession and, at every turn, you tell us that the answers that the Reformed confessions would give you are no answers at all. I answered by quoting the Confession of Faith and what it helpfully summarizes concerning the nature of faith and assurance of salvation and yet, I'm told, these are not answers. Saving faith is not an answer to the question "What is required for salvation?" Seriously?!

My aim has been to sincerely help you by explaining and expanding what the Confessions teach under the impression that you may have been confused but, at this point, it is clear that you are not interested in having either your confusion resolved or your assumptions challenged. You want answers to life's most important questions to fit on a bumper sticker. You want the entire Scriptures to fit within a tweet. You are also youthfully arrogant toward those who have been examined by their Churches and who care for the souls of their congregation and have given their lives to such care at great personal cost.

I do not have disdain for the modern Church. I weep for her and fear for many. It's why I have spent years in ministry preparation and labor for the Church. May the Lord grant to you an increasing understanding of these things. I hope you find a good Church and you have the humility to actually be taught.

Let me tell you about a few friends of mine. 

One is a friend in Japan. He and his wife learned the Gospel after dozens of years being Pentecostal. They could have recited your simple creed but I patiently and consistently applied the Gospel and what it says more fully about salvation and it opened their eyes, by the Spirit, to what salvation is. There is nothing sweeter.

Let me tell you about another friend, K. She was struggling for years about assurance and understanding salvation having come out of a broadly Evangelical background. She asked many questions and I provided pages of answers to her questions. She can now see the Gospel more clearly. It brings tears to her eyes and to mine for her to rest in Christ.

Let me tell you abot a young girl who is the daughter of some dearly beloved people I know. She came to them admitting to sexual intercourse with both a boy and a girl and having used LSD. This is a 17 year old girl in a Christian school. Her parents were devestated wondering what they had done wrong because they love her. It broke my heart to know, as well, that the Church she attended was one of those Churches that likes pithy answers to things. It's the kind of Church where its Elders stand up and say: "I didn't really prepare anything to say but I think that's better in the end because then God uses is more." They scarcely know the Gospel for themselves much less how to bring the balm of Gilead to a hurting family and tell them about Christ and the Spirit's power for their lives.

That's because none of these answers fits in 11 words. If you think you can get through the Christian life by being surface-level and pithy then you have not reckoned with the Scriptures.


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## Tom Hart (Mar 24, 2016)

Stope said:


> If you were to ask me i would say this:
> Repenting, believing, turning and the Spirit is active in your life





Stope said:


> "Dont say 528 words when 11 will do"



Then why did you ask your question in the first place?

I agree that your 11-word answer is not adequate. You need to refine your thinking on salvation, so I'd recommend reading and considering the answers posted here.

I'd suggest reading the Heidelberg Catechism in its entirety, maybe taking notes, and then coming here with any questions afterwards. The Heidelberg Catechism, while quite brief, is a very useful summary of Reformed teaching.


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Mar 24, 2016)

Stope said:


> I remember hearing that once somebody asked N.W. Wright "what is the Gospel?", as in, "what would you tell a person on their death bed", and he had so many words and lofty thoughts that the Gospel became so heady and academic that he couldn't answer the question.
> 
> All that to say, I appreciate your many words and sharing your disdain with your view of the modern church and how they like C.S. Lewis more than Jonathan Edwards, but at the end of the day I see you are unable to answer the original question of "What is required for salvation?" (notice its not "whats the least amount one can believe and be saved?" its not "how heretical can one be and still be saved?" - simply "What is required for salvation?").
> 
> ...


Drawing upon an analogy that would liken Rich's response to the "_heady and academic_" NT Wright is beyond the bounds of anything that can be considered reasoned discourse about sacred matters. You are straining the patience of many Godly men here, among which I cannot count myself at this point given what is simmering within me to answer you in kind. Is every thought that pops into your noggin something worthy of putting down for all to see? Consider to whom you are communicating and try being a wee bit more circumspect.


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## KeithW (Mar 24, 2016)

Stope said:


> ...the original question of "What is required for salvation?" (notice its not "whats the least amount one can believe and be saved?" its not "how heretical can one be and still be saved?" - simply "What is required for salvation?").


The logical meaning of such a question is defined by the word "required". If the question is answered by a single verse of Scripture then something is going to be missed. I have never found a single verse containing all of the required pieces. In another sense the question _does _include what is the minimum required for salvation. So a long extended discourse of doctrine is not really the answer to the question either.

The question "what is required for salvation?" seems to be the same question as "what must I do to be saved?" But what causes a man to ask the latter question, such as in Acts 16:30? Part of the Gospel is describing man's need for a Savior. Once a man understands his need then another part of the Gospel (what is required for salvation) answers the question what must I do to be saved? And then there is going to be terminology and ideas which we need to be ready with if these need to be explained.

I will share my personal anecdote on how relying too heavily on confessions to describe _repent and believe_ can leave out important parts of "what is required for salvation?".

I attended the local Reformed Church for a few years. In that time the pastor never once presented some of the parts of the Gospel I recognized as answering, "what is required for salvation?" His message was definitely missing some basic important elements.

It turned out my pastor was faithfully and accurately presenting _repent and believe_ according to the confessions of his denomination, the Reformed Church. I quoted from these confessions earlier: the Heidelberg Catechism, and the Canons of Dordt. But these two documents describe _repent and believe_ only as "sorrow for sins and believing there is forgiveness". That is the only message my pastor ever preached on what _repent and believe_ means in the Gospel. There was no turning from sin as part of the definition of repentance (covered above). There was no "believe God raised Jesus from the dead" as a requirement of salvation (covered above), though of course this belief was taught outside of that requirement.


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## Scott Bushey (Mar 24, 2016)

Ask Mr. Religion said:


> Stope said:
> 
> 
> > I remember hearing that once somebody asked N.W. Wright "what is the Gospel?", as in, "what would you tell a person on their death bed", and he had so many words and lofty thoughts that the Gospel became so heady and academic that he couldn't answer the question.
> ...



I waited on getting involved in this post; Many good answers. I happen to be reading T. Brooks at the moment and he addresses the issue:

'there are seven special things that accompany salvation, and they are these:
1, Knowledge; 2, Faith; 3, Repentance; 4, Obedience; 5, Love; 6, Prayer; 7, Perseverance.'

Thomas Brooks, The Complete Works of Thomas Brooks, ed. Alexander Balloch Grosart, vol. 2 (Edinburgh; London; Dublin: James Nichol; James Nisbet and Co.; G. Herbert, 1866), 431.'

Brooks uses this rationale in light of sanctification. Consider the regenerated baby in the womb. Practically speaking, he has little to offer; spiritually, possibly much more. 

Salvation is of God. Regeneration happens outside of any characteristics. Conversion however, is when one comes to ascend to certain propositions about God, typically described in a gospel message, in the simplest form. A young believer may not be able to extrapolate on the doctrine of the trinity, but as Rick alluded to, will eventually as the HS leads the elect into all truth. One cannot lay the responsibility on the regenerated person-God is the one who teaches and God will convert every elect in His good timing.

Phil 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:


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## Semper Fidelis (Mar 24, 2016)

KeithW said:


> The question "what is required for salvation?" seems to be the same question as "what must I do to be saved?" But what causes a man to ask the latter question, such as in Acts 16:30? Part of the Gospel is describing man's need for a Savior. Once a man understands his need then another part of the Gospel (what is required for salvation) answers the question what must I do to be saved? And then there is going to be terminology and ideas which we need to be ready with if these need to be explained.



That's part of what I was driving at earlier.

What is required for salvation? There are many aspects to it:

1. God willing to condescend to the creature by way of Covenant.
2. A Mediator between God and man.
3. That the Mediator would be God.
4. That the Mediator would be man.
5. That the Mediator would atone for sin to pay the penalty for sin and death.
6. That the Mediator would procure faith for His elect by His atonement.
7. That we would believe and, by believing, be united to the death and resurrection of that Mediator....

I could go on and on.

It depends upon what aspect of salvation we are talking about because the fundamental principle of the Scriptures is that salvation is of the Lord. When we speak of the "requirements" of salvation without reference to the one Who provides it and to what purpose then we can treat salvation simply from the aspect of what must man believe and forget that there is the work of God and His glory behind it all.

I will share my personal anecdote on how relying too heavily on confessions to describe repent and believe can leave out important parts of "what is required for salvation?".[/quote]

Your anecdote is a bit strange and I would note that the Westminster Standards do have a rich discussion describing what repentance is as an evangelical grace but the point is made that Confessions cannot substitute for actually being able to handle the Scriptures. The place of Confessions are to be summary expositions but they are not intended to replace the exposition of Scripture.

It is not sufficient when our theological examining committee is examining a man for licensure or for ordination that we simply determine that he can parrot the answers that the Confessions provide. I will note that the Puritans who wrote these had a rich head, heart, hands language and there is an elegance to the Westminster standards in how much they helpfully summarize. That said, you can describe the taste of chocolate but you have to actually taste chocolate. We can describe the faith and repentance but there is a tasting and experiencing of the goodness of God that we need to see in men as well as their zeal and desire to make Christ known to others.

There is a reason why the answer to the original question cannot be answered simply because it is the very aim of the Covenant of Grace and everything that flows from Christ as Prophet, Priest, and King. One cannot unpack salvation in any one paragraph or even an entire sermon. At best we are trying to figure out the best way to exposit some Scripture that historically or didactically teaches about the saving work of God and then it belongs to preaching to make application to the hearers.

At best in a forum like this we can give a basic vocabulary that can be used to begin to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. Confessions serve as good fence posts and guides with which we can helpfully blueprint certain Biblical themes so that, when we're in a particular passage, it can serve as a starting point to continue to mine the Scirptures for every nugget of gold we find therein.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Mar 25, 2016)

What does an elect infant, dying in infancy need? 

That would be "the sum." 

(Keep in mind, the question was "required for salvation.")


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## earl40 (Mar 25, 2016)

C. Matthew McMahon said:


> What does an elect infant, dying in infancy need?
> 
> That would be "the sum."
> 
> (Keep in mind, the question was "required for salvation.")



I was hoping someone brought this up in that our faith in Who Jesus is and what He did for His sheep is paramount.


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## Scott Bushey (Mar 25, 2016)

earl40 said:


> C. Matthew McMahon said:
> 
> 
> > What does an elect infant, dying in infancy need?
> ...



It is paramount, however, the information that the HS conveys spiritually to the regenerate believers may not be easily extrapolated initially. Spiritually, the information is there in seed. In time, as the HS leads, the person will in fact, show fruit of those truths and be converted as he/she ascends to these facts, i.e. the simple fact, 'believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved'; the rest will follow as the person is sanctified.

In regards to the elect infant dying in infancy, prior to glorification, that person has more truth onboard than any of us will ever experience here in time.


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## Nate (Mar 25, 2016)

> ...I must say, that a simple Christian whose knowledge of the revelation of God may be very defective, but who really believes it, is in an entirely different position than that of the person who may have a great deal of knowledge, but no faith. Don't ask me how little a person might need to believe in order to be saved. I don't know the answer to that question, nor even if it's a meaningful question that has an answer to be given. But I will say this: a person who does have faith, even "as a grain of mustard seed," wants to know more and more. The true Christian doesn't examine himself to find out whether or not he has the mere minimum that's necessary to be counted as a child of God. But the true Christian wants to know more and more. He is grasping a the maximum rather than the minimum of doctrinal knowledge. Doctrinal knowledge isn't to be separated from genuine experience of the truth that one believes.


William Young, Sermon on Zechariah 12:10a


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## MW (Mar 25, 2016)

Nate said:


> > ...I must say, that a simple Christian whose knowledge of the revelation of God may be very defective, but who really believes it, is in an entirely different position than that of the person who may have a great deal of knowledge, but no faith. Don't ask me how little a person might need to believe in order to be saved. I don't know the answer to that question, nor even if it's a meaningful question that has an answer to be given. But I will say this: a person who does have faith, even "as a grain of mustard seed," wants to know more and more. The true Christian doesn't examine himself to find out whether or not he has the mere minimum that's necessary to be counted as a child of God. But the true Christian wants to know more and more. He is grasping a the maximum rather than the minimum of doctrinal knowledge. Doctrinal knowledge isn't to be separated from genuine experience of the truth that one believes.
> 
> 
> William Young, Sermon on Zechariah 12:10a



That is excellent, Nate. Do you have a book or online reference, or is this a private transcript?


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## Nate (Mar 25, 2016)

MW said:


> Nate said:
> 
> 
> > > ...I must say, that a simple Christian whose knowledge of the revelation of God may be very defective, but who really believes it, is in an entirely different position than that of the person who may have a great deal of knowledge, but no faith. Don't ask me how little a person might need to believe in order to be saved. I don't know the answer to that question, nor even if it's a meaningful question that has an answer to be given. But I will say this: a person who does have faith, even "as a grain of mustard seed," wants to know more and more. The true Christian doesn't examine himself to find out whether or not he has the mere minimum that's necessary to be counted as a child of God. But the true Christian wants to know more and more. He is grasping a the maximum rather than the minimum of doctrinal knowledge. Doctrinal knowledge isn't to be separated from genuine experience of the truth that one believes.
> ...



Rev. Winzer, it is from Reformed Thought: Selected Writings of William Young published by RHB. I cannot find this sermon on Travis Fentiman's site or elsewhere online.


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## MW (Mar 25, 2016)

Nate said:


> Rev. Winzer, it is from Reformed Thought: Selected Writings of William Young published by RHB. I cannot find this sermon on Travis Fentiman's site or elsewhere online.



I'd forgotten about that volume. Thankyou for bringing it up as a timely reminder.


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## Tom Hart (Mar 25, 2016)

I've been thinking, and I wonder if it might be better to say (rather than 'What is necessary for salvation?') 'Of what does salvation necessarily consist?'


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Mar 26, 2016)

Nate said:


> > ...I must say, that a simple Christian whose knowledge of the revelation of God may be very defective, but who really believes it, is in an entirely different position than that of the person who may have a great deal of knowledge, but no faith. Don't ask me how little a person might need to believe in order to be saved. I don't know the answer to that question, nor even if it's a meaningful question that has an answer to be given. But I will say this: a person who does have faith, even "as a grain of mustard seed," wants to know more and more. The true Christian doesn't examine himself to find out whether or not he has the mere minimum that's necessary to be counted as a child of God. But the true Christian wants to know more and more. He is grasping a the maximum rather than the minimum of doctrinal knowledge. Doctrinal knowledge isn't to be separated from genuine experience of the truth that one believes.
> 
> 
> William Young, Sermon on Zechariah 12:10a


Young's book is a treasure.

See also:
http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php/76264-William-Young-on-Lapsarianism?p=970511#post970511


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## timfost (Mar 26, 2016)

Nate said:


> William Young, Sermon on Zechariah 12:10a



Love the quote! It's really similar to Berkhof's ST, p. 504:



> _The measure of this knowledge._ It is impossible to determine with precision just how much knowledge is absolutely required in saving faith. If saving faith is the acceptance of Christ as He is offered in the gospel, the question naturally arises, How much of the gospel must a man know, in order to be saved? Or, to put it in the words of Dr. Machen: "What, to put it badly, are the minimum doctrinal requirements, in order that a man be a Christian?" In general it may be said that it must be sufficient to give believers some idea of the object of faith. All true saving faith must contain at least a minimum of knowledge, not so much of the divine revelation as of the Mediator and His gracious operations. The more real knowledge one has of the truths of redemption, the richer and fuller one's faith will be, if all other things are equal. Naturally one who accepts Christ by a true faith, will also be ready and willing to accept God's testimony as a whole. It is of the utmost importance, especially in our day, that the churches should see to it that their members have a fairly good, and not merely a hazy, understanding of the truth. Particularly in this undogmatic age, they should be far more diligent than they are in the indoctrination of their youth.


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## Cymro (Mar 26, 2016)

A person only believes as much as he knows. "This is life eternal that they might know Thee the only true God and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent." The realisation that Christ is the way, the truth and the life and that no man can come to the Father but by Him. That God is holy and righteous and all men are sinners, and the only way of reconciliation is through redemption by the forgiveness of sin through the sacrificial blood of Christ. Thereafter that soul is to grow in grace and the knowledge of Jesus Christ. It is also an ingredient that the resurrection is known. " Delivered for our offences and raised for our justification." So it's believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.


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