# Should laymen preach the word on the street?



## shackleton

Since one has to be called both externally (by man) and internally (by God), and licensed, ordained and seminary trained to preach the gospel does this mean a lay person should not be allowed to do street preaching? 

I listen to "Way of the Master Radio" everyday on Sirius satellite and they are always pushing people to do this and I began to wonder if according to the strict reformed and Presbyterian model, is a laymen allowed to do this? 

If one is not called to preach or teach or be an elder or deacon what can the lowly lay-person do for the church?


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## Pergamum

Every laymen should tell everyone within their sphere of life about Jesus as occasions arise. 

This need not be in a preaching format and actually street preaching in the US is largely ineffective. 

Laymen should be encouraged to tell their existing webs of relationships about Jesus and to present a solid witness to win those closest to them. That is how the early church grew, through the active involvement of the layman in lay witness as they performed acts of mercy and charity and told their immediate family webs about the Saviour.


On the PB you will have some stress that they do not believe in an "every member ministry." I am not stressing this. Every member of the body of Christ has a (little m) ministry, and are to faithfully glorify God in their sphere. However, everyone is not called to preach, though all are called to witness.


Laymen can do a lot for the church. They are not merely called to sit and listen. The spheres may be different, but all of the body of Christ are active in the stations that God has given them.


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## Barnpreacher

Augustine is quoted in _Morals of the Catholic Church _as saying:



> "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Now you love yourself suitably when you love God better than yourself. What, then, you aim at in yourself you must aim at in your neighbor, namely, that he may love God with a perfect affection. For you do not love him as yourself, unless you try to draw him to that good which you are yourself pursuing. For this is the one good which has room for all to pursue it along with thee. From this precept proceed the duties of human society.



I'm not saying this to defend street preaching so much as I am saying this to defend that the "lowly lay-person" can and should evangelize.


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## jawyman

I will be coming under care this May and as I have been allowed to bring the Word to my own congregation, I do not "preach", but exhort. In the OPC only ordained ministers are allowed the privilege of "preaching" the Word.


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## satz

joshua said:


> No laymen should be "preaching."
> 
> All Christians should be "salt and light," and be "always prepared to give an answer for the reason of the hope [they] have." However, this is not the same as "preaching."



I know this has been covered before... but what exactly is the difference?


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## tcalbrecht

Street preaching may be a bit of a misnomer, but in any event, the object of the street preacher are those outside the visible church. The object of the minister of the Word is the congregation. 



> The duties belonging to the office of minister of the Word consist of continuing in prayer and in the ministry of the Word, administering the sacraments, catechizing the youth, and assisting the elders in the shepherding and discipline of the congregation.
> 
> URCNA CO, Article 2



I don't see any problem with members in good standing of a congregation who have been adequately catechized and understand the essentials of the faith bringing the gospel in this situation. The intent ought to be not to get people to "make a decision" or "invite Jesus into their heart" but rather to bring people into the congregation so that they may be discipled and baptized.

I think the alternative would be to require the minister to perform all evangelistic duties of whatever form outside the congregation. E.g., is there any fundamental difference between street preaching to a group and sharing the gospel with your neighbor over a cup of coffee?


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## shackleton

Or maybe just present the gospel and let the Holy Spirit do the convicting, (instead of an altar call) then if the situation arises, give them the help they need by answering any questions and then lead them to a good bible believing church.


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## Barnpreacher

Just to be clear, we are not saying that a layman should not strike up a conversation with someone about Jesus Christ and the gospel, correct?


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## shackleton

joshua said:


> No laymen should be "preaching."



Is this partly because preaching the Word is considered to be a means of grace?


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## cih1355

> I listen to "Way of the Master Radio" everyday on Sirius satellite and they are always pushing people to do this and I began to wonder if according to the strict reformed and Presbyterian model, is a laymen allowed to do this?




Is that radio program saying that believers should speak to a crowd of people about Jesus on a street or have a one-on-one conversation with someone about Jesus on a street?


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## shackleton

cih1355 said:


> Is that radio program saying that believers should speak to a crowd of people about Jesus on a street or have a one-on-one conversation with someone about Jesus on a street?



Yes...Both. A good portion of the show is about evangelism and trying to convince people to get up the nerve to go out and evangelize and when you get really bold you should try street preaching. The show is actually pretty good. 

You can also listen to it on the internet. 

The Way of the Master Radio 
It even shows a guy on this page doing some.


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## AV1611

shackleton said:


> Since one has to be called both externally (by man) and internally (by God), and licensed, ordained and seminary trained to preach the gospel does this mean a lay person should not be allowed to do street preaching?



It is indeed wrong for a lay person to do street preaching


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## Pergamum

tcalbrecht said:


> Street preaching may be a bit of a misnomer, but in any event, the object of the street preacher are those outside the visible church. The object of the minister of the Word is the congregation.





I would like to challenge this.

Ordinarily, the minister ministers in an already existing congregation. 

But some are called to evangelize or do missionary work and for these, then the minister exists prior to the existence of the congregation. 

Thus there is a case of extra-ecclesiastical preaching, not just bringing people into the church that already exists, but being used by God to birth the church to begin with.


Your definition above ignores church planting.


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## ChristopherPaul

Not all parts of the body of Christ are called to the office that preaches (speaks on behalf of Christ to His Church) and evangelizes (Speak on behalf of Christ to the world); however, there is a universal office of priest as well as prophet and king for all believers.


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## BobVigneault

We are not preachers, however, everyone who is in Christ is an ambassador of Christ and has been given a message of reconciliation. I'll leave that to the preachers to unpack for us.

2 Cor. 5:16 From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.


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## Barnpreacher

ChristopherPaul said:


> Not all parts of the body of Christ are called to the office that preaches (speaks on behalf of Christ to His Church) and evangelizes (Speak on behalf of Christ to the world); however, there is a universal office of priest as well as prophet and king for all believers.



Are you telling me that a lay-person is not "called" and therefore should not speak to the person sitting beside of him on the airplane about the gospel of Jesus Christ?


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## ChristopherPaul

Barnpreacher said:


> ChristopherPaul said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not all parts of the body of Christ are called to the office that preaches (speaks on behalf of Christ to His Church) and evangelizes (Speak on behalf of Christ to the world); however, there is a universal office of priest as well as prophet and king for all believers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you telling me that a lay-person is not "called" and therefore should not speak to the person sitting beside of him on the airplane about the gospel of Jesus Christ?
Click to expand...



No, not at all


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## tcalbrecht

Pergamum said:


> tcalbrecht said:
> 
> 
> 
> Street preaching may be a bit of a misnomer, but in any event, the object of the street preacher are those outside the visible church. The object of the minister of the Word is the congregation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to challenge this.
> 
> Ordinarily, the minister ministers in an already existing congregation.
> 
> But some are called to evangelize or do missionary work and for these, then the minister exists prior to the existence of the congregation.
> 
> Thus there is a case of extra-ecclesiastical preaching, not just bringing people into the church that already exists, but being used by God to birth the church to begin with.
> 
> 
> Your definition above ignores church planting.
Click to expand...


I wasn't trying to give a comprehensive definition. I was addressing the ordinary situation, not the extraordinary.

As I understood the OP, the issue had to do with the question of street "evangelism" (for lack of a better term) in an area where there were existing churches. Note my comment about the goal being to bring folks into the congregation for baptism and discipleship. Presumably those doing the work on the street or in their neighborhoods are already members in good standing of the church and under the authority of ordained leadership. 

I would certainly agree that in area where the gospel is new and no churches exist, that evangelists called and ordained by the church are in order.


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## Yodas_Prodigy

AV1611 said:


> shackleton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since one has to be called both externally (by man) and internally (by God), and licensed, ordained and seminary trained to preach the gospel does this mean a lay person should not be allowed to do street preaching?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is indeed wrong for a lay person to do street preaching
Click to expand...


Could you please site scripture to support your position?


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## Herald

> and seminary trained to preach the gospel



Excuse me. Where do I find that requirement in the scriptures?


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## AV1611

Yodas_Prodigy said:


> Could you please site scripture to support your position?



The point is rather simple, only those who have the gift of preaching should preach. Now do all have this gift? No, therefore not all should preach. Those who have the gift should be equiped and called by God. This is recognised by the Church and so these men are ordained and sent to preach. The only office of the Church that has the authority to preach is the pastor, therefore it is wrong for a lay person to preach the gospel. 

"Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?" (1 Corinthians 12:29)

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ" (Ephesians 4:11, 12)

"And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also" (2 Timothy 2:2). 

An overseer must hold "fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers" (Titus 1:9)


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## Pergamum

What if we change the name of the event from "street preaching" to "lay witness" or "Street witnessing."

Then who can do it?

And when does witnessing turn into preaching?


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## AV1611

Pergamum said:


> What if we change the name of the event from "street preaching" to "lay witness" or "Street witnessing."



If a man stands up in a street and preaches the gospel this is street preaching. If a man walked upto a passer by and handed out a tract and engaged in a comversation, that is witnessing. The laity can do the latter _not_ the former.


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## Gloria

cih1355 said:


> I listen to "Way of the Master Radio" everyday on Sirius satellite and they are always pushing people to do this and I began to wonder if according to the strict reformed and Presbyterian model, is a laymen allowed to do this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that radio program saying that believers should speak to a crowd of people about Jesus on a street or have a one-on-one conversation with someone about Jesus on a street?
Click to expand...


Both.


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## AVT

Coming from a Reformed denomination, I can understand why we take preaching seriously and why we guard our pulpit . Our denomination examines thoroughly those who preach and teach. Reason #1. We don't want God's word and people's mind polluted by liberalism. #2 We don't want to divide the body of Christ #3. We hold Reformation truths that many
don't hold anymore.(This puts us in the smallest minority but we have the most powerful
truths)...of course I am bias and I believe it's true.

We hold those who preach highly accountable.

But can laymen share the Gospel -of course yes, in words and in deeds. There's no limit to our personal witness as we live as salt and light.

I drilled 20-30 kids on the Gospel and lo and behold, many kids could understand salvation in Christ and forgivenes of sins. Kids in return were trained to share the Gospel story with other kids. I believe that God's word will not return to Him void. Many kids were saved!


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## PuritanCovenanter

What dost thou think of John Bunyan? Should the tinker have been stopped and warned that he was not a Preacher? John Owen sure thought he was gifted in Preaching.


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## Pergamum

AV1611 said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> What if we change the name of the event from "street preaching" to "lay witness" or "Street witnessing."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If a man stands up in a street and preaches the gospel this is street preaching. If a man walked upto a passer by and handed out a tract and engaged in a comversation, that is witnessing. The laity can do the latter _not_ the former.
Click to expand...



Suppose a man hands out tracts and witnesses and a person begins to ask him questions, then asks him to give a short summary of the Gospel. 

Another person becomes interested and then a third gathers around this man as he explains the Gospel. Then 6 more come and the man has to raise his voice a bit so that all can hear him as he explains the Gospel. 

Then 6 more are added and someone beckons him to stand up on a tree stump to be heard all the more...

....at what point does witnessing turn into preaching?


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## Pergamum

Arlene Truax said:


> Coming from a Reformed denomination, I can understand why we take preaching seriously and why we guard our pulpit . Our denomination examines thoroughly those who preach and teach. Reason #1. We don't want God's word and people's mind polluted by liberalism. #2 We don't want to divide the body of Christ #3. We hold Reformation truths that many
> don't hold anymore.(This puts us in the smallest minority but we have the most powerful
> truths)...of course I am bias and I believe it's true.
> 
> We hold those who preach highly accountable.
> 
> But can laymen share the Gospel -of course yes, in words and in deeds. There's no limit to our personal witness as we live as salt and light.
> 
> I drilled 20-30 kids on the Gospel and lo and behold, many kids could understand salvation in Christ and forgivenes of sins. Kids in return were trained to share the Gospel story with other kids. I believe that God's word will not return to Him void. Many kids were saved!




It could be argued that seminarians and the "professioanals" in the Reformed faith in the 20th Century did more harm to the pulpit than laymen ever did - liberalism and heresy have usually been from the top-down in recent reformed church history...even among those who were Confessionalistic and all that.


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## Yodas_Prodigy

AV1611 said:


> Yodas_Prodigy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Could you please site scripture to support your position?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The point is rather simple, only those who have the gift of preaching should preach. Now do all have this gift? No, therefore not all should preach. Those who have the gift should be equiped and called by God. This is recognised by the Church and so these men are ordained and sent to preach. The only office of the Church that has the authority to preach is the pastor, therefore it is wrong for a lay person to preach the gospel.
> 
> "Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?" (1 Corinthians 12:29)
> 
> "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ" (Ephesians 4:11, 12)
> 
> "And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also" (2 Timothy 2:2).
> 
> An overseer must hold "fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers" (Titus 1:9)
Click to expand...


So, you assume that a layman cannot have the gift to preach?


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## KMK

BobVigneault said:


> We are not preachers, however, everyone who is in Christ is an ambassador of Christ and has been given a message of reconciliation. I'll leave that to the preachers to unpack for us.
> 
> 2 Cor. 5:16 From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.



Matthew Henry:



> 2. He has appointed the ministry of reconciliation, v. 18. By the inspiration of God the scriptures were written, which contain the word of reconciliation, showing us that peace was made by the blood of the cross, that reconciliation is wrought, and directing us how we may be interested therein. And he has appointed the office of the ministry, which is a ministry of reconciliation: ministers are to open and proclaim to sinners the terms of mercy and reconciliation, and persuade them to comply therewith. For,
> 2. Reconciliation is here spoken of as our indispensable duty, v. 20. As God is willing to be reconciled to us, we ought to be reconciled to God. And it is the great end and design of the gospel, that word of reconciliation, to prevail upon sinners to lay aside their enmity against God. *Faithful ministers are Christ's ambassadors, sent to treat with sinners on peace and reconciliation: they come in God's name, with his entreaties, and act in Christ's stead, doing the very thing he did when he was upon this earth, and what he wills to be done now that he is in heaven.*



John Calvin:



> The ministry of reconciliation. Here we have an illustrious designation of the gospel, as being an embassy for reconciling men to God. It is also a singular dignity of ministers -- that they are sent to us by God with this commission, so as to be messengers, and in a manner sureties. 1 This, however, is not said so much for the purpose of commending ministers, as with a view to the consolation of the pious, that as often as they hear the gospel, they may know that God treats with them, and, as it were, stipulates with them as to a return to his grace. Than this blessing what could be more desirable? Let us therefore bear in mind, that this is the main design of the gospel -- that whereas we are by nature children of wrath, (Ephesians 2:3,) we may, by the breaking up of the quarrel between God and us, be received by him into favor. Ministers are furnished with this commission, that they may bring us intelligence of so great a benefit, nay more, may assure us of God's fatherly love towards us. *Any other person, it is true, might also be a witness to us of the grace of God, but Paul teaches, that this office is specially intrusted to ministers. When, therefore, a duly ordained minister proclaims in the gospel, that God has been made propitious to us, he is to be listened to just as an ambassador of God, and sustaining, as they speak, a public character, and furnished with rightful authority for assuring us of this*.



I like the way Calvin puts it. Any person might be a witness, but ministers have been 'commissioned' and are therefore 'ambassadors'. That seems to be what Paul is saying because he makes the distinction between 'you' (the Corinthians) and 'us' (Gospel minsiters).


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## Jimmy the Greek

I think Baptists tend to have a less restrictive view than Presbyterians.



> 1689 LBCF XXVI:11. Although it be incumbent on the bishops or pastors of the churches, to be instant in preaching the word, by way of office, yet the work of preaching the word is not so peculiarly confined to them but that others also gifted and fitted by the Holy Spirit for it, and approved and called by the church, may and ought to perform it.


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## LadyFlynt

AV1611 said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> What if we change the name of the event from "street preaching" to "lay witness" or "Street witnessing."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If a man stands up in a street and preaches the gospel this is street preaching. If a man walked upto a passer by and handed out a tract and engaged in a comversation, that is witnessing. The laity can do the latter _not_ the former.
Click to expand...


I believe this is why Tom stated that it's a misnomer. Here when "street preaching" is mentioned, it is typically the latter...going out and talking with people, giving away tracts or Bibles, finding out their physical needs and providing some basics for them and giving comfort, and when possible directing them to a Bible believing church. I've never met a "street preacher" yet that has stood on the corner and preached.


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## AV1611

Yodas_Prodigy said:


> So, you assume that a layman cannot have the gift to preach?



If he has a gift then he should seek ordination and become a presbyter.


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## Davidius

Yodas_Prodigy said:


> AV1611 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yodas_Prodigy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Could you please site scripture to support your position?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The point is rather simple, only those who have the gift of preaching should preach. Now do all have this gift? No, therefore not all should preach. Those who have the gift should be equiped and called by God. This is recognised by the Church and so these men are ordained and sent to preach. The only office of the Church that has the authority to preach is the pastor, therefore it is wrong for a lay person to preach the gospel.
> 
> "Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?" (1 Corinthians 12:29)
> 
> "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ" (Ephesians 4:11, 12)
> 
> "And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also" (2 Timothy 2:2).
> 
> An overseer must hold "fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers" (Titus 1:9)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So, you assume that a layman cannot have the gift to preach?
Click to expand...


Yes, and he's perfectly right to do so. If he had the gift to preach, he'd be a preacher, wouldn't he?


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## tcalbrecht

KMK said:


> I like the way Calvin puts it. Any person might be a witness, but ministers have been 'commissioned' and are therefore 'ambassadors'. That seems to be what Paul is saying because he makes the distinction between 'you' (the Corinthians) and 'us' (Gospel minsiters).





> 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;



The message of Paul seems pretty clear: We have all been reconciled to God therefore we all are given the ministry of reconciliation. The language is inclusive, not exclusive, referring to Paul and his readers. With all due respect to Messrs Calvin and Henry, I don’t see how you can get an "us/you" distinction from reading the entire passage. 

While it possible for there to be particular aspects of the ministry of reconciliation that are unique to gospel ministers, you won’t find that emphasis here.


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## reformedcop

Shouldn't a distiction be drawn between "Street Preacher" a layman who is proclaiming the gospel loudly on a street corner and a teaching elder who has the responsibility of the well being and feeding of his flock?

The street preacher is addressing mostly unbelievers; while the teaching elder is expositing the Scriptures to his flock.


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## PuritanCovenanter

PuritanCovenanter said:


> What dost thou think of John Bunyan?
> 
> Should the tinker have been stopped and warned that he was not a Preacher? J
> 
> ohn Owen sure thought he was gifted in Preaching.



*bump*

I have heard some preachers that are ordained who should never preach. They would bore bark on a tree to death. 

And I have heard some young men in Baptist churches through the years who are not ordained but were wonderfully gifted and right on.



Again, What think ye of our old Puritan Bunyan?


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## KMK

PuritanCovenanter said:


> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> 
> What dost thou think of John Bunyan?
> 
> Should the tinker have been stopped and warned that he was not a Preacher? J
> 
> ohn Owen sure thought he was gifted in Preaching.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *bump*
> 
> I have heard some preachers that are ordained who should never preach. They would bore bark on a tree to death.
> 
> And I have heard some young men in Baptist churches through the years who are not ordained but were wonderfully gifted and right on.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, What think ye of our old Puritan Bunyan?
Click to expand...


I think we are discussing what is 'ordinary'. I am not sure about the circumstances of Bunyan's situation but it is possible that God had him doing exactly what He wanted. Same with Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron. Ordinarily their ministry should be under the authority of a church but I no that we don't live in ordinary times.


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## AV1611

PuritanCovenanter said:


> I have heard some preachers that are ordained who should never preach.



I have heard some men who have been ordained who did not possess the gift required.



PuritanCovenanter said:


> And I have heard some young men in Baptist churches through the years who are not ordained but were wonderfully gifted



I am sure you have. All that would mean is that they should seek ordination.



PuritanCovenanter said:


> Again, What think ye of our old Puritan Bunyan?



I do not know much about him, other than to say he is not above being wrong.


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## AV1611

reformedcop said:


> Shouldn't a distiction be drawn between "Street Preacher" a layman who is proclaiming the gospel loudly on a street corner and a teaching elder who has the responsibility of the well being and feeding of his flock?



There should be no distinction, the minister of the gospel is to do both whilst the lay person is to do neither.


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## Yodas_Prodigy

AV1611 said:


> Yodas_Prodigy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, you assume that a layman cannot have the gift to preach?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If he has a gift then he should seek ordination and become a presbyter.
Click to expand...


OK. I'll go along with that. 

My view is that not everyone is called in to full time ministry. Perhaps I am being tripped up on terminology. I know of many men who are Lay-Preachers. Admittedly, most are not Reformed...


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## Yodas_Prodigy

Davidius said:


> Yodas_Prodigy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AV1611 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The point is rather simple, only those who have the gift of preaching should preach. Now do all have this gift? No, therefore not all should preach. Those who have the gift should be equiped and called by God. This is recognised by the Church and so these men are ordained and sent to preach. The only office of the Church that has the authority to preach is the pastor, therefore it is wrong for a lay person to preach the gospel.
> 
> "Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?" (1 Corinthians 12:29)
> 
> "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ" (Ephesians 4:11, 12)
> 
> "And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also" (2 Timothy 2:2).
> 
> An overseer must hold "fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers" (Titus 1:9)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, you assume that a layman cannot have the gift to preach?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, and he's perfectly right to do so. If he had the gift to preach, he'd be a preacher, wouldn't he?
Click to expand...


How about a Lay-Preacher? These guys have jobs and don't do full time ministry for whatever reason.


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## timmopussycat

joshua said:


> Exceptional men are not the rule.



Nor is the antithesis quite so profound as some would make it. There are cases of men with preaching gifts yet lacking pastoral skills and even in Presbyterian circles I believe some denoms recognize the office of evangelist as one who does street preaching although not ordained to a church. Brownlow North was one such example.


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## Herald

North Jersey Baptist said:


> and seminary trained to preach the gospel
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Excuse me. Where do I find that requirement in the scriptures?
Click to expand...


*bump*


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## KMK

Yodas_Prodigy said:


> AV1611 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yodas_Prodigy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, you assume that a layman cannot have the gift to preach?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If he has a gift then he should seek ordination and become a presbyter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> OK. I'll go along with that.
> 
> *My view is that not everyone is called in to full time ministry*. Perhaps I am being tripped up on terminology. I know of many men who are Lay-Preachers. Admittedly, most are not Reformed...
Click to expand...




Yodas_Prodigy said:


> Davidius said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yodas_Prodigy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, you assume that a layman cannot have the gift to preach?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, and he's perfectly right to do so. If he had the gift to preach, he'd be a preacher, wouldn't he?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How about a Lay-Preacher? These guys have jobs and don't do full time ministry for whatever reason.
Click to expand...


I think you both need to define what you mean by 'lay preacher'. If the definition of a 'lay preacher' is that they are not called to 'full-time ministry' then I am a 'lay preacher' because I am not a full-time pastor. Or does 'lay preacher' mean someone who is asked by a church to preach but has not been formally ordained? If so, then the fact that a church has asked the man to preach is kind of an informal 'ordination' if only for a limited time. This man is still under the 'covering' of a church so to speak.


----------



## KMK

North Jersey Baptist said:


> North Jersey Baptist said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and seminary trained to preach the gospel
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Excuse me. Where do I find that requirement in the scriptures?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *bump*
Click to expand...


And, if I may add to Bill's question, what is a 'seminary'? Are all seminaries qualified to train preachers? If not, what are the criteria?


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## Yodas_Prodigy

When I speak of a Lay-Preacher, I mean someone who has a fulltime living outside of the church and preaches in whatever role the Lord calls him to.


----------



## reformedcop

AV1611 said:


> reformedcop said:
> 
> 
> 
> Shouldn't a distiction be drawn between "Street Preacher" a layman who is proclaiming the gospel loudly on a street corner and a teaching elder who has the responsibility of the well being and feeding of his flock?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There should be no distinction, the minister of the gospel is to do both whilst the lay person is to do neither.
Click to expand...


In your opinion ... where is the line between one to one witnessing to unbelievers and preaching? If there is a group of three that a lay person is witnessing to ... is that preaching?


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## KMK

Yodas_Prodigy said:


> Davidius said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yodas_Prodigy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, you assume that a layman cannot have the gift to preach?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, and he's perfectly right to do so. If he had the gift to preach, he'd be a preacher, wouldn't he?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How about a Lay-Preacher? These guys have jobs and don't do full time ministry for whatever reason.
Click to expand...




Yodas_Prodigy said:


> When I speak of a Lay-Preacher, I mean someone who has a fulltime living outside of the church and preaches in whatever role the Lord calls him to.



In my case (and in many others) I have a 'fulltime living outside the church' and am also the Pastor of a church. Certainly it is not ideal, but I don't consider myself to be a 'lay preacher'. 

Are you asking if it is possible for God to gift and to send a preacher without also providing a full time Pastorate? Then the answer is yes. Even Paul had to make a living outside the church.


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## Amazing Grace

Pergamum said:


> Thus there is a case of extra-ecclesiastical preaching, not just bringing people into the church that already exists, but being used by God to birth the church to begin with.
> 
> 
> Your definition above ignores church planting.



Exactly Pergy. This is the result of the error that man must look from the kingdom to the church(building). We have had it backwards for many many years. Our focus should be Go and teach, then have the Holy Spirit direct them to wherever He sees fit. We have spent too much time "churching" people then teaching them. God adds to the church not man.


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## Amazing Grace

North Jersey Baptist said:


> and seminary trained to preach the gospel
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Excuse me. Where do I find that requirement in the scriptures?
Click to expand...


You dont....


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## Amazing Grace

joshua said:


> Exceptional men are not the rule.



I totally disagree with this sentiment Joshua. This is the crux of the Grace of God throughout the writ. To take uneducated, vile, sinful, hated people and then give them a gift happens all the time.

Remember God does not choose the qualified, but he most certainly qualifies those He chooses. 

Read this please:

MYSTERY BABYLON DENOMINATION
FOREIGN MISSIONS BOARD

To: Rev. Saul Paul
First Christian Church
Antioch, Syria

Dear Mr. Paul:

I have your application for missionary appointment before me, and will be as frank as possible concerning your qualifications as a foreign missionary. We have to be very careful in choosing our missionaries, and our Missions Board has reviewed your case thoroughly. We have decided that it would be unwise to send you to the foreign field for the following reasons:

1. It has come to our attention that you are doing secular work on the side. We do not feel that making tents and full time ministry go together very well. [1Th 2:9] It seems that you do not have enough experience in trusting the Lord for your income. You should make up your mind whether you want to preach or continue your profession.

2. Your previous actions have been very rash and unseemly for a minister. *We learned that in a public meeting you opposed Dr. Simon Peter, an esteemed minister with a high reputation.* [Ga 2:11-14] We also hear that you refused to compromise with other ministers such that a special council meeting had to be called in Jerusalem to prevent a serious split in the churches. [Ac 15:1-30] *We frown on putting ideology before people. For your own good, I am enclosing a copy of Daius' Carnegus book on "How to Win Jews and Influence Greeks."* [Ga 1:10, 1Th 2:4-6]

3. You have conflicted with mature Jewish brethren in nearly every city you have visited who simply want to encourage the converted Pagans to be properly circumcised. *Mr. Paul, you must know that these men are our most learned sages with a deep sense of the roots and history of our faith. As well, and more importantly, these men control the synagogues you could be ministering in if you would simply tone down your dialog into a more friendly and respectful exchange*. [Gal 5:2-12]

4. *In checking back, we discovered your Christian education consisted of a three year course in Arabia. [Ga 1:15-20] We find that the Arabian school has not been approved by our accreditation board.*

5. *Further, you admit to being an unskilled public speaker.* [2Co 10:10, 11:6] *Paul, surely you must know that people expect fine elocution from men of God, and that as a denomination we stand for the highest levels of excellence in the pulpit. Yet instead of going to much-needed oratory classes you spend your time making tents instead.* From your correspondence, you also appear to be spending a considerable amount of time writing letters to insignificant little "churches" that meet in homes. [Ac 28:3-6] Honestly now; do you really think that such misguided activities are what will lead to your success in the world of religion? We strongly suggest that you put down your tools and set aside your pen, and instead practice hand gestures, facial expressions, and voice modulation in front of a mirror for several hours a day until you come up to par.

6. It has come to the attention also that you often emphasize "the power of God" and "the gifts of the Spirit." [1Co 2:3-5, 12:1-7] Also that you speak in tongues a great deal. [1Co 14:18] Surely you realize that such as this only drives off the better class of people, and attracts only the riff-raff. It would be better to tone down those more sensational forms of worship. You sound as though you are "off the deep end." [1Co 3:18]

7. *It has been proven to our satisfaction that you had hands laid on you at Antioch with prophecy going forth, [Ac 13:1-3] with none of the Apostles or Headquarters brethren present to conduct this ordination service in the prescribed manner.*( i love this one)

8. We see here that you have a jail record in several places. [2Co 11:23-27] If this is true, it puts you in a bad light, for our denomination has always stood for a high standard of civic responsibility. I fear it would damage our reputation to have someone representing us that had served time in jails and prisons. Frankly, Mr. Paul, we seriously doubt you could have been innocent and the judge wrong in so many cases. It just doesn't look right.

9. It seems that you are a troublemaker, Mr. Paul. Several business men of Ephesus have written us that you were the cause of severe loss of business to them and even stirred mob violence. You must learn to cultivate the friendship and influence of men such as these. [Ac 16:16-22]

10. We also have some details of a shameful "over the wall in a basket" episode at Damascus, [2Co 11:30-33] plus a stoning at Lystra, and several other violent actions taken against your ministry. [2Ti 3:11] Haven't you ever suspected that conciliatory behavior and gentler words might gain you more friends?

11. We have learned through channels that following some trouble with a preacher on the island of Cyprus, you began to allow yourself to be known by the Gentile pronunciation of your name rather than the proper Hebrew. [Ac 13:4-11] Yet another conflict, and then a name change. This does not seem to us to be conduct becoming to the ministry.

12. You admitted in your application that in the past you neglected such needy fields as Bithynia, just because "the Spirit didn't lead that way," and that you undertook a hazardous journey on the strength of a dream you had at Troas. [Ac 16:6-10] Mr. Paul, surely you don't expect us to go along with such flimsy and fantastic excuses for your seemingly purposeless wanderings.

13. Many times you did not stay long enough, in our opinion, to get a church properly established. You left your converts many times without even a pastor to guide them, and without setting the church in order in some good hierarchical denomination. [Ts 1:5]

14. We hear also from Troas that you preach too long, one sermon lasting almost twenty-four hours, even to the extent that a young man fell asleep and was seriously injured. [Ac 20:7-12] We understand that you claim to have restored his life and raised him from the dead by falling on him and embracing him. What nonsense! We need practical men in the ministry, Mr. Paul, not high strung emotional radicals. Our advice is for you to shorten your sermons considerably. We find that about twenty minutes is the longest a minister can hold the attention of his audience these days. Our motto is "Stand up, speak up, and shut up."

15. It is reported from your home church that you could not get along with your fellow ministers; that John Mark--a commendable young man and nephew of one of our highest leaders--had to leave your party in the middle of a journey; and that you had a sharp quarrel with gentle, good natured Barnabas. [Ac 15:36-40] *Now these men are well thought of in Jerusalem and we wonder why you are always having trouble with your fellow workers?*

16. We have notarized affidavits from four very popular and influential preachers: Diotrephes, Demas, Hymenaeus, and Alexander; to the effect that it is impossible for them to cooperate with either you or your program. [1Ti 1:20]

17. From what we hear, you seem to think that you have some direct sanction from on-high, boasting about your revelations and that God has chosen you to reveal some "Mystery". [Ep 3:3-4] *Can't you realize that any truth that is to be revealed would come through Headquarters to the recognized, established brethren, and that after it had been checked by our Procedure and Doctrine Committee that we would distribute it on to the field workers?*

18. Finally, we hear that you claim to be an Apostle. We know nothing of this being passed upon by the proper authoritative channels and wonder how you could back that claim up, when the last Apostle was voted into office right here in Jerusalem. [Ac 1:26] Now that our denomination is firmly established, why do you imagine there would be any need for God to continue the Apostolic gifting?

As you see, Mr. Paul, we feel definitely after close scrutiny of your case, that you are undoubtedly the most unqualified applicant we have ever seen, and my advice for you is to find a church where you can work in harmony, and use your past education as perhaps a Sunday School teacher.

I hope I have prevented you from making a terrible mistake in your life.

Most sincerely yours,

J. Flavios Fluphehead, SECY


All who are called of God can preach, teach, evangelize anywhere and anyplace the Holy Spirit deems necessary. No letters after their name are needed.


----------



## Iconoclast

I do not think "laymen" have to present a three point sermon on the street,or in a public place. However I believe it is sin not to prayerfully seek any and all opportunities to present Christ to a dying world.
As part of that presentation a person could explain the special place that God has given to the word of God ,and how Preacher's are given as gifts to the church. It does not have to be an either ,or , situation.
Explain the christian life, from regeneration and justification, to santification and glorification showing how the word is central to our knowing God and His salvation. Then invite the person to hear the word preached the next Lord's day.


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## Yodas_Prodigy

*LBC 1689, Chpt 26*

LBC 1689, Chpt 26

Paragraph 11. Although it be incumbent on the bishops or pastors of the churches, to be instant in preaching the word, by way of office, yet the work of preaching the word is *not so peculiarly confined to them but that others also gifted and fitted by the Holy Spirit for it, and approved and called by the church, may and ought to perform it*.

Acts 11:19-21

19 Now those who were scattered after the persecution that arose over Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to no one but the Jews only. 20 But some of them were men from Cyprus and Cyrene, who, when they had come to Antioch, spoke to the Hellenists, preaching the Lord Jesus. 21 And the hand of the Lord was with them, and a great number believed and turned to the Lord. 
NKJV

1 Peter 4:10-11

10 As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11 If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God. If anyone ministers, let him do it as with the ability which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. 
NKJV


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## Yodas_Prodigy

Gomarus said:


> I think Baptists tend to have a less restrictive view than Presbyterians.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1689 LBCF XXVI:11. Although it be incumbent on the bishops or pastors of the churches, to be instant in preaching the word, by way of office, yet the work of preaching the word is not so peculiarly confined to them but that others also gifted and fitted by the Holy Spirit for it, and approved and called by the church, may and ought to perform it.
Click to expand...


I used this one too. Great Minds think alike!


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## raekwon

This has probably been discussed here time and again, but I've gotta say, I find the necessary linkage between "preaching" and ordained office to be artificial and unbiblical. This is one area that I think that the LBCF got it right and the WCF did not.

The power and authority of preaching are not vested in ordination to the office of "minister of Word and Sacrament". The power is from the Spirit of God and the authority is in the Word itself, regardless of whose mouth the message comes from. Now, don't get me wrong. God gifts and calls men to proclaim his Word to and rule his church, and such men are to be ordained to the office of Elder. (It would be foolish of me - an elder - not to believe this!) I understand the desire to protect our pulpits and the preaching office. At the same time, though, these made-up semantic bifurcations between "preaching" and "exhorting", and the unbiblical injunctions against the proclamation of the Word by anyone other than a Teaching Elder are hogwash.

Paul rejoiced in the *preaching* of Christ, even by those who did so in envy and rivalry. Are we wiser than Paul?


----------



## AVT

Pergamum said:


> Arlene Truax said:
> 
> 
> 
> Coming from a Reformed denomination, I can understand why we take preaching seriously and why we guard our pulpit . Our denomination examines thoroughly those who preach and teach. Reason #1. We don't want God's word and people's mind polluted by liberalism. #2 We don't want to divide the body of Christ #3. We hold Reformation truths that many
> don't hold anymore.(This puts us in the smallest minority but we have the most powerful
> truths)...of course I am bias and I believe it's true.
> 
> We hold those who preach highly accountable.
> 
> But can laymen share the Gospel -of course yes, in words and in deeds. There's no limit to our personal witness as we live as salt and light.
> 
> I drilled 20-30 kids on the Gospel and lo and behold, many kids could understand salvation in Christ and forgivenes of sins. Kids in return were trained to share the Gospel story with other kids. I believe that God's word will not return to Him void. Many kids were saved!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It could be argued that seminarians and the "professioanals" in the Reformed faith in the 20th Century did more harm to the pulpit than laymen ever did - liberalism and heresy have usually been from the top-down in recent reformed church history...even among those who were Confessionalistic and all that.
Click to expand...



That's why our denomination examines thoroughly graduates of so called "Reformed seminaries". It is not a guarantee that just because they went to a Reformed Seminary that they can preach. Pastors and even teaching elders are thoroughly examined not just by one person but by the Board and by the Presbytery. We know that all men are fallible but we have the best system of screening applicants. It is just the proper thing to do
...and the best way to care for the Body of Christ.

We also have a great system on how to remove someone who has proven
incapable .


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## KMK

Yodas_Prodigy said:


> Gomarus said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Baptists tend to have a less restrictive view than Presbyterians.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1689 LBCF XXVI:11. Although it be incumbent on the bishops or pastors of the churches, to be instant in preaching the word, by way of office, yet the work of preaching the word is not so peculiarly confined to them but that others also gifted and fitted by the Holy Spirit for it, and approved and called by the church, may and ought to perform it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I used this one too. Great Minds think alike!
Click to expand...




raekwon said:


> This has probably been discussed here time and again, but I've gotta say, I find the necessary linkage between "preaching" and ordained office to be artificial and unbiblical. This is one area that I think that the LBCF got it right and the WCF did not.
> 
> The power and authority of preaching are not vested in ordination to the office of "minister of Word and Sacrament". The power is from the Spirit of God and the authority is in the Word itself, regardless of whose mouth the message comes from. Now, don't get me wrong. God gifts and calls men to proclaim his Word to and rule his church, and such men are to be ordained to the office of Elder. (It would be foolish of me - an elder - not to believe this!) I understand the desire to protect our pulpits and the preaching office. At the same time, though, these made-up semantic bifurcations between "preaching" and "exhorting", and the unbiblical injunctions against the proclamation of the Word by anyone other than a Teaching Elder are hogwash.
> 
> Paul rejoiced in the *preaching* of Christ, even by those who did so in envy and rivalry. Are we wiser than Paul?



I agree that the LBC is an improvement over the WCF.  But I don't think they are that different in this area. 

If the LBC read this way: "yet the work of preaching the word is not so peculiarly confined to them but that others also gifted and fitted by the Holy Spirit for it, ..., may and ought to perform it." then I would agree with you. 

But the LBC specifically says that those who are 'gifted' and 'fitted' are also "approved and called by the church". Isn't that exactly what ordination is? the stamp of approval by the church that this preacher is 'gifted' and 'fitted' and 'called'?


----------



## raekwon

That's a good point, Ken. I wasn't as careful as I should have been in my reading.

So, now I'll say that I disagree with the LBCF's wording as well . . . approval and calling by the church are good and important. The church is the means by which God calls men to the service of the preaching of the Word. I don't deny that by ANY means. What I deny (like I said earlier) is the idea that the power and authority of preaching come from that ordination. They do not.


----------



## KMK

raekwon said:


> That's a good point, Ken. I wasn't as careful as I should have been in my reading.
> 
> So, now I'll say that I disagree with the LBCF's wording as well . . . approval and calling by the church are good and important. The church is the means by which God calls men to the service of the preaching of the Word. I don't deny that by ANY means. What I deny (like I said earlier) is the idea that the power and authority of preaching come from that ordination. They do not.



I appreciate the candor. 

However, if I may be so bold to point out that what you say above is exactly what I think the LBC is getting at: a denial that power comes from the church (because it comes from the HS), but that the church is the vehicle for recognizing who has been empowered with 'calling', 'fitting', and 'gifting'.

For example, when you were ordained, it was not the church vesting you with giftedness, calling, and fitting. Your ordination was in fact the church publically recognizing that you had been gifted, called and fitted by the power of the HS.


----------



## KMK

Dr. Godfrey wrote this in his article entitled "Friend or Foe: The Mission and the Confession of the Church" in the most recent issue of 'Evangelium':



> I was intrigued recently, while having dinner with three other people. Two of them told the story of how close relatives had been saved by street preachers-by the Lord, of course, but through street preachers. We all _know_ street preaching is a waste of time. That it's just an embarrassment. That it's not clever. We couldn't do that, especially if you are a Presbyterian or Dutch Reformed. And I thought, isn't that amazing? The Word showed its power! God honored the preaching of His Word. Maybe the preaching wasn't very good, maybe it wasn't very wise, maybe it wasn't very sophisticated. This kind of preaching almost sounds like the kind of people, Paul says, the Lord calls to himself. Do we have confidence that the Word of God gives us everything we need for worship and fror ministry and for life in the church of Christ?



I think what Godfrey is trying to get across is that God's Word is more powerful than we are foolish. The confessions say that preachers should be approved by the church that they are 'called', 'fitted, and 'gifted'. But that does not mean that, like everything else, the preached Word is not powerful when we foolish humans do things that are not 'ideal'. But this truth should not embolden us to continue in our foolishness.

I think when the confessions speak on ecclesiology it is in the spirit of a 'best case scenario' that won't be fully realized this side of glory.


----------



## Blueridge Believer

PuritanCovenanter said:


> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> 
> What dost thou think of John Bunyan?
> 
> Should the tinker have been stopped and warned that he was not a Preacher? J
> 
> ohn Owen sure thought he was gifted in Preaching.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *bump*
> 
> I have heard some preachers that are ordained who should never preach. They would bore bark on a tree to death.
> 
> And I have heard some young men in Baptist churches through the years who are not ordained but were wonderfully gifted and right on.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, What think ye of our old Puritan Bunyan?
Click to expand...


Spurgeon never went to seminary either.


----------



## Pergamum

Lay Preaching


----------



## raekwon

KMK said:


> raekwon said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's a good point, Ken. I wasn't as careful as I should have been in my reading.
> 
> So, now I'll say that I disagree with the LBCF's wording as well . . . approval and calling by the church are good and important. The church is the means by which God calls men to the service of the preaching of the Word. I don't deny that by ANY means. What I deny (like I said earlier) is the idea that the power and authority of preaching come from that ordination. They do not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I appreciate the candor.
> 
> However, if I may be so bold to point out that what you say above is exactly what I think the LBC is getting at: a denial that power comes from the church (because it comes from the HS), but that the church is the vehicle for recognizing who has been empowered with 'calling', 'fitting', and 'gifting'.
> 
> For example, when you were ordained, it was not the church vesting you with giftedness, calling, and fitting. Your ordination was in fact the church publically recognizing that you had been gifted, called and fitted by the power of the HS.
Click to expand...


This is true, but a church's recognition of a man's calling and giftedness to preach isn't always tantamount to ordination. For example, churches often allow men who are either in or preparing for seminary to preach occasionally. The church isn't ordaining them to office by this action, but in this instance, such men are still "approved and called by the church", as the Confession states.

Other than that small point, I'm pretty much in agreement with you. What I'm railing against is the idea that without ordination, preaching has no -- or less -- power (or that it shouldn't be called "preaching" at all, but rather "exhortation"). It makes no sense to me.


----------



## KMK

raekwon said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> raekwon said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's a good point, Ken. I wasn't as careful as I should have been in my reading.
> 
> So, now I'll say that I disagree with the LBCF's wording as well . . . approval and calling by the church are good and important. The church is the means by which God calls men to the service of the preaching of the Word. I don't deny that by ANY means. What I deny (like I said earlier) is the idea that the power and authority of preaching come from that ordination. They do not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I appreciate the candor.
> 
> However, if I may be so bold to point out that what you say above is exactly what I think the LBC is getting at: a denial that power comes from the church (because it comes from the HS), but that the church is the vehicle for recognizing who has been empowered with 'calling', 'fitting', and 'gifting'.
> 
> For example, when you were ordained, it was not the church vesting you with giftedness, calling, and fitting. Your ordination was in fact the church publically recognizing that you had been gifted, called and fitted by the power of the HS.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is true, but a church's recognition of a man's calling and giftedness to preach isn't always tantamount to ordination. For example, churches often allow men who are either in or preparing for seminary to preach occasionally. The church isn't ordaining them to office by this action, but in this instance, such men are still "approved and called by the church", as the Confession states.
> 
> Other than that small point, I'm pretty much in agreement with you. *What I'm railing against is the idea that without ordination, preaching has no -- or less -- power (or that it shouldn't be called "preaching" at all, but rather "exhortation")*. It makes no sense to me.
Click to expand...


I think Godfrey would agree with you.


----------

