# The Mark of the Beast question?



## Free Christian (Oct 23, 2013)

Hello. I was wondering about the mark of the beast. I have read that in past history people were or had backs turned upon them for not following the way of the RCC and that those who did were the ones who had the mark, doing the things and thinking with their minds in obedience to the RCC ways.
Has the mark in that way been and gone? Does it still exist? Is it to come again?
I wonder, if this is the case, that those who do and think, the hand and the forehead, can those who have it or had it decide that they are not going to do these things and then not have the mark?
Finding it a bit hard to express what I mean but I think people will get what I mean.
Does it mean that a professing Roman Catholic for example can never, for want of a better expression, have it removed?
Once marked always marked?
Does it mean that all who have been members of that church and followed its ways, professing its ways, have no hope?


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## raydixon9 (Oct 23, 2013)

It seems to me that those with the mark of the beast would be all whose names weren't recorded in the Book of Life before time began. So, in regards to the RCC apostates, any whose name is written in the Book of Life, like Saul/Paul or Luther(very good speculation here), will be saved and cannot have EVER(in direct opposition of some views) have had the mark of the beast. Thoughts?


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## Tirian (Oct 23, 2013)

18 “Therefore you shall lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul, and bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.

Forehead signifying control of your thinking, your way of thinking - is it from above (Godly wisdom) or from below (earthly, sensual, demonic wisdom)
Hand - signifying your actions and how they are governed......

No one whose name is written in the Lambs book of Life will ultimately fall into worldly thinking and act consistently contrary to Gods word (mark of the Beast) even if they are deceived and stumble for a while - Christ will lift them back on. Preservation of the saints.


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## Free Christian (Oct 24, 2013)

Would that mean that those who did and thought as those others, did not actually have the mark but just appeared to? That's one part I am trying to understand. Would it be that at the end of their life, they had always kept those ways and practiced them and they are the ones who really had it? It is also the part with the buying and selling. Today there are those who practice and think it and those who don't. But there is no distinction as in one type being able to buy and sell and the other not to. Or is it a different type of buying and selling? In past history they were unable to do so in what I have read, but today not so.
Is that type of situation to come again in the future?


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## Tirian (Oct 24, 2013)

I tried to sell IT services into the Victorian State Government [confidential] Department and was introduced at a product launch to the director of the department. She made it clear that she was interested in more than the IT services I had. I went for the door. 

My company never successfully tendered for any implementation work for them but I sold into NSW, QLD and Federal departments.

I didn't want to do business the way it later became obvious was "de rigueur" for that department and I was unable to buy or sell services there accordingly.

Perhaps this is a relevant experience?


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## Free Christian (Oct 24, 2013)

Hi Mathew. I have heard that many organisations and businesses do have links one way or another with behind the scenes Roman Catholicism. A friend of mine, who is not a Christian but I wish he was as he is a great guy, once told me how this was the case and gave me a document with info about it in it. It detailed a long and deliberate plan over time to gain power and world influence. It was a strange read but I couldn't help but believe there was something to it. Im not a conspiracy theorist by any means but I cant help but realise either that the world around me is so influenced by the evil one in every direction that I look that there has to be workings in play, constantly, with the battle still raging against good and God. Its easy with all the distraction of the world around us to sometimes forget this. Will the day come again where they have such a strong influence as they did in the past where once again true believers are denied what the others are not? I say that wondering if it could be the case. Will their influence rise once again is what I wonder? Its sort of a side thing but I know of a person who was abused as a child by the RCC. The person who told me this is a social worker who knows the one abused. They tried to go to the police and others to report it and complain only to come up against brick wall after brick wall. Those involved in the abuse, who went to the place where it was done and were part of it, were in almost every thing you could imagine. Everywhere this person turned almost, had involvement with the RCC. Their influence was everywhere. Scary stuff.


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## VictorBravo (Oct 24, 2013)

Free Christian said:


> Does it mean that a professing Roman Catholic for example can never, for want of a better expression, have it removed?
> Once marked always marked?
> Does it mean that all who have been members of that church and followed its ways, professing its ways, have no hope?



I don't know about the buying and selling conspiracies, having no direct knowledge. But I think starting the analysis from whether you have a "mark" is confusing to me.

Are you asking if it is possible for a professing Roman Catholic, who has taken part in the commerce of the Roman Catholic Church, to leave it and find salvation? If so, I'd point to all sorts of saints whom God delivered: Luther and Calvin come first to mind.


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## Fogetaboutit (Oct 24, 2013)

If you understand that the mark in the forehead or in the right hand is a symbol to having the mind and doing the will of the Beast. (which is the opposite of the phylacteries which Matthew pointed out earlier which was a symbol of having the mind and action guided by the word of God). Then you understand the buying and selling to be linked to that as well.

The Gospels have a few parables speaking of the Kingdom of God being likened to buying things (parable of the pearl in the field etc.-Matthew 13:45-46). The same way as Proverbs tell us to buy wisdom (Proverbs 23:23). 


If you look at the context of Revelation 13 this section is speaking of the second beast from the earth (false prophet) which is a representation of ecclesiastical compromise and apostasy. From my understanding this is a reference of the visible church apostatizing therefore the true believers (those who do not have the mark) cannot receive (buy) or are prevented from preaching (selling) the truth of the Word of God.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Oct 24, 2013)

Hello Brett,

As John wrote the Apocalypse around 95 AD, the "mark of the beast" (Revelation 13) had reference to things that existed centuries before the Roman Catholic organization did, so whatever John was referring to had to have been applicable to and understandable by the 1st and early 2nd century churches, as well as churches up through the age.

It has been rightly pointed out above that a "mark" in the forehead and hand symbolized thought and action pertaining to loyalty to the beast; what is / was the beast? I think commentator William Hendriksen is right when he says that the beast from the sea refers to antichristian persecuting governments, while the beast from the land referred to teachers of antichristian religions and philosophies. It is a given that some who were giving their allegiance to the beasts (they worked together to implement satan's plans) were given grace by God to repent and turn to Christ for salvation. To those who did turn from wickedness to godliness, this verse makes clear the provision of God for such:
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9).​
So the answer to your question is, Yes, those once part of false religions, including Roman Catholicism, are forgiven and cleansed upon repentance, and cleaving to Christ. This post from an earlier thread may help clarify things further: http://www.puritanboard.com/f46/mark-beast-78307/#post992310

I hope this is helpful.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## JM (Oct 25, 2013)

I found Gill, Barnes and the People's New Testament Commentary helpful when it comes to biblical prophecy:

Gill: to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads; or "that they might give themselves marks", as the Complutensian edition reads; which is an allusion either to the custom among the Romans of imprinting marks upon their servants and soldiers, by which they might be known to whom they belonged; servants had them in their foreheads F9, and soldiers in their hands F11; or to the usages of the Jews in binding their phylacteries upon their arms and foreheads, to put them in mind of the law of God, and their obedience to it; or to the practices of the Heathens, in putting the mark of the god they worshipped upon their bodies; Maimonides F12 says, it was a custom with the Gentiles to mark themselves with their idols, showing that they were their bought servants, and were marked for their service: the sense is, that some received the mark in one place, and some in another: those who were obliged to receive the mark in the right hand seem to be the clergy, such who entered into holy orders; who lifted up their right hand, and swore and vowed allegiance to the pope, and testified they were ready to defend and support his religion and interest; and who in their ordination are said to have an indelible character impressed on them: and those who received the mark in their foreheads are the common people in general, who one and all have the same impress upon them; which may intend either the sign of the cross in baptism, or rather their open confession of the Popish religion, which they as publicly avow and declare as if it had been written on their foreheads.

and his number [is] six hundred threescore [and] six:
which some think refers to the time of the rise of antichrist, in the year 666; but that seems rather to be in the year 606, when the bishop of Rome obtained the name of universal bishop; others have been of opinion that it refers to the expiration of the beast, which they thought would have been in the year 1666, the number of the thousand being dropped, as it is in our common way of speaking; as when we say the Spanish invasion was in 88, meaning 1588, and the civil wars began in 41, that is, 1641; but time has shown that this was a mistaken sense; the more prevailing opinion is that of Mr. Potter, who has wrote a peculiar and learned treatise upon this passage, who makes the counting of this number to be no other than the extracting of its root, which is the number 25, which when multiplied into itself, and the fraction in working it 41 is added, makes up the square number 666; and now 25 being added to A. D. 33, make 58, which was the time of the beast's conception, to which if 666 is added, it brings us to the year 724, when he arrived to his age of manhood, and when the war about the worshipping of images broke out: but others think that the numeral letters in some man's name which amount to this date, and which agrees with antichrist, are intended; and here various conjectures are made; some have observed, that in genealogical arithmetic the number of Adonikam's posterity is 666, ( Ezra 2:13 ) ; whose name signifies "a lord rising up", or "risen"; and suits very well with antichrist, who is risen up, and assumes a lordly domination over the kings of the earth; and it is further observed, that the Hebrew word (tyymwr) , which signifies "Roman", and, having the word beast or kingdom joined to it, designs the Roman beast, or kingdom, consists of numeral letters, which make up this sum; and so the Hebrew word (rwto) , "Sethut", which is the name of a man, ( Numbers 13:13 ) , and signifies "mystery", in its numeral letters comes just to this number, and one of the names of the whore of Babylon is "mystery", ( Revelation 17:5 ) ; but the name "Lateinos" bids as fair as any, which is mentioned by so ancient a writer as Irenaeus, who was a hearer of Polycarp, a disciple of John, the writer of this book; now the numeral value of the letters of this word makes up exactly 666, thus; (l) 30. (a) 1. (t) 300. (e) 5. (i) 10. (n) 50. (o) 70. (v) 200. in all 666; and it is well known that the church of Rome is called the Latin Church and the pope of Rome the head of the Latin church, and his seat is in the Latin empire, and the service of the beast is in the Latin tongue, and the Bible is kept in that language, from the reading of the common people: it has been observed that the numeral letters in Ludovicus, or Lewis, which is a common name of the French kings, and is the name of the present French king, make up this same number; and may denote the destruction of antichrist, which will quickly follow the downfall of the kingdom of France, under a king of this name; and the rather, since this was the last of the ten kingdoms that was set up, and in which the primitive beast subsists, and the only one that has not yet been conquered, or in which a revolution has not been; and since this is the tenth part of the city which shall fall a little before the third woe comes on: and that it may fall under Ludovicus, or Lewis, the present French king {a}, may be hoped for, and is desirable.


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## One Little Nail (Oct 26, 2013)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Hello Brett,
> 
> As John wrote the Apocalypse around 95 AD, the "mark of the beast" (Revelation 13) had reference to things that existed centuries before the Roman Catholic organization did, so whatever John was referring to had to have been applicable to and understandable by the 1st and early 2nd century churches, as well as churches up through the age.
> 
> ...



I would beg to differ brother,as the Book of Revelations is a Prophetic Book given in Symbols,

as it is a Prophetic Book the Symbols have to be deciphered to find out what they represent & Prophesy,

I) Because the symbols themselves have to be deciphered it would not therefore be necessary for the Church of the First 2 Centuries to understand them! particularly if The Book is meant for the Church Age.
II) Because it is a Book of Prophecy for the Church Age it would then not necessarily have been applicable to the Church of the First 2 Centuries in its entirety either!! 

The Spiritual Interpretation scheme that you use has no SPECIFIC Prophetic Interpretation for the Symbols in the Book of Revelations
making it a Non Prophetic Book that just alludes to General Spiritual Principles which can be found anywhere & everywhere in the Bible.

It is a Prophetic Book,its own Internal Evidence points to this :

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy,
Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book,
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy,

as to it being a Book of Prophetic Symbols & written in Symbols:

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 
Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars:
Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. 
The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches:and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. 
Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven,
Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. (ie Rome)

As you can plainly see The Book of Revelations itself clearly & perspicuously shows that it is a Prophetic Book given in Symbols which have a Singular & Specific Fulfillment.
this is evidence that it is a Continuous Historicist Prophetic Book in keeping with the Prophetic Books of the Older Testament, in Particular Daniel & Ezekiel, giving specific
Prophetic fulfillment to the Prophetic Symbols in it ,this Historicist Form of Interpretation gives The Most Justice to the Internal Character The Book of Revelations in 
comparison to all the other Known Prophetic Schools of Interpretation ie Jesuit Preterism & Jesuit Futurism & the Pseudo Protestant Spiritual School. 

Therefore the mark of the beast will or has had a specific Prophetic Fulfillment.


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## RamistThomist (Oct 26, 2013)

I (very seriously) lean towards the microchIp or healthcare.gov


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## Peairtach (Oct 26, 2013)

I'm currently reading James Madison MacDonald's "A Key to the Book of Revelation", which was recommended by Charles Hodge in his "Sysrematic Theology". 

His outline is very cogent In my humble opinion, although, as with all commentaries on Revelation, there's room for disagreement on various details.

In my humble opinion the 666 or 616 refers to Nero ( see e.g. Robert L.Reymond "Systematic Theology" ) who becomes the archetype for the beastly exercise of worldly power thereafter, both by the Roman Empire and by subsequent beastly powers. The Beast doesn't go away with Nero's demise but emerges or resurrects in another form (other forms).

The Beast from the Earth/False Prophet represents antichristian ecclesiastical leadership, including the Papacy, but also including Liberals and others. 

Both these eschatalogical players are not done away with until Revelation 19, which is therefore future to us. Christ defeats them by His Word and Spirit, in His providence and through His Church. 

The wound received by the Beast from the Sea is that point at which it looked as if Christianity had triumphed and defeated the worldly powers when Constantine was converted or "converted" to Christianity.

Buying and selling In my humble opinion refers to the preaching and reception of the Gospel. See e.g. Rev.3:18. When the real beastliness of unsanctified civil power comes out restrictions are put on buying and selling the Gospel, or it is made illegal.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Oct 27, 2013)

Hello Robert,

Okay, I don’t mind interacting with you on this as I have a little free time. You said,
“Because the symbols themselves have to be deciphered it would not therefore be necessary for the Church of the First 2 Centuries to understand them! particularly if The Book is meant for the Church Age.”​ 
This doesn’t wash. First of all, you make the claim that it would not have been necessary for the church of the first two centuries to understand the symbols, especially seeing as the book is meant for the church age, but you do not support this claim with any evidence. Anyone can make a claim; to be credible it does require substantiation, expository or otherwise.

Consider this (I may not convince you, Robert, so this is primarily for those looking on), in Revelation 1:11 John heard the Lord Jesus saying,
I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.​ 
I think this gives the distinct sense that what is about to be revealed to John is specifically meant for the Lord’s people under great distress in the seven churches of Asia Minor (not _only_ the seven mentioned, but “seven” would stand for the full number of the churches extant then), which “distress” would be in the form of persecution as well as deception and seduction. John, in obedience to Jesus’ command, in verse 4 of chapter 1 likewise states that the initial target audience is, per the epistolary genre of Revelation (which it is as well as apocalyptic and prophetic), “the seven churches which are in Asia”. Unless you can show a compelling reason to set aside the Lord’s – and John’s – explicit statements that this is for the churches *then*, your assertion fails.

I will hasten to add that what Jesus says and shows to John *also* applies to the churches up through the ages, for the blessing of Rev 1:3 is for all the churches throughout the age:
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.​ 
The Lord also states in Rev 2:7 and elsewhere, “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches”, neither the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] nor the 21[SUP]st[/SUP] century churches excluded! This is a great problem with your version of the historicist – as well the premil and postmil – views: they do not allow the comfort, counsel, and warnings of our Sovereign relevance to all the church.

Having considered the various eschatological schools, how the postmil says Revelation has already been fulfilled in the first century in the destruction of Jerusalem, and really has no relevance to us in the twenty-first, and I see the premil school says that most of the book pertains to the future and had very little relevance to the early church and little for us as well if we are not at the _very_ end, I find much lacking. Now the historicist would again exclude portions of the church from this prophecy that the Lord does not exclude! There are very serious implications in your view: that the Lord – in this the grand climax of prophecy – does not speak to all His beloved people, that His prophetic care does not extend to them, and in effect you try to fit this greatest of prophetic revelations into a disemboweled little merely historical schema! Talk about “Pseudo Protestant Spiritual Schools”! 

Yet it is clear that the first and second century church – under fierce assaults of persecution and seduction – were the immediate recipients of Jesus’ care and counsel, and the text shows us that whoever among us – even now in the 21[SUP]st[/SUP] century – has an ear to take to heart Jesus’ warnings, “let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches”, our own church and time not excluded! We can see how that the beast of John’s day was Rome, and yet this beast continues to manifest in the ensuing centuries in varying measure as antichristian persecuting governments. And yet you say, Robert, that the symbols are to have only one historical referent – in your own words, “it is a Prophetic Book given in Symbols which have a Singular & Specific Fulfillment” – which I would maintain *truncates* the prophecies rather than giving them their intended latitude. More on this shortly.

So *if* the Apocalypse is meant to have relevance for all the people of God up through the age (and it can be shown it does), the one school that allows such an understanding is the Amillennial – which says of “the millennium” that it is the entire present age of the New Testament church and the world – and we may find understanding of the various symbols that emerge in the visions in that light.

Getting back to your post, Robert, you also stated,
“Because it is a Book of Prophecy for the Church Age it would then not necessarily have been applicable to the Church of the First 2 Centuries in its entirety either!!”​ 
Yes, there is a small element of truth in what you said here, in the words, “in its entirety”. For there are portions of the prophecy that pertain to the approaching end of the age, and not to its beginning. Apart from this caveat, however, seeing that the first two centuries _are_ part of the church age (and whose churches are addressed specifically and directly by our Sovereign), the opposite of what you said holds true: they _are_ “necessarily applicable” to them!

And you go on in this vein,
“Because the symbols themselves have to be deciphered it would not therefore be necessary for the Church of the First 2 Centuries to understand them!”​ 
As though John the seer of these visions could not have made clear to his flocks the meaning (his pastorate was in Ephesus, even after he was freed from Patmos, per the reports of early church leaders from that area). And is it not written how the angel said to John, “Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand” (22:10)? This is the opposite of what the angel said to Daniel (for the vision was not to be opened in his day, but “closed up and sealed till the time of the end” -Dan 12:4, 9). Your assertion is sheer conjecture without warrant, and contrary to what is plainly written. In _John's_ day the prophecy of Revelation was given to be understood.

As noted above, you have said of Revelation, “it is a Prophetic Book given in Symbols which have a Singular & Specific Fulfillment”. I have appended a couple of brief analyses of the historicist view by G.R. Osborne and G.K. Beale below, but a word of my own at this point.

You have said of the amillennial school I represent that it makes of Revelation “a Non Prophetic Book that just alludes to General Spiritual Principles which can be found anywhere & everywhere in the Bible”.

If you mean that Revelation’s symbolic visions (which are certainly _not_ replicated throughout the Bible!) of what the churches are to experience up through the age – assaults through government and cultural persecution, false teachings from various sources, and attempts to seduce her through worldly enticement – there is some accuracy to your saying; and if you mean that the symbolic visions also depict the judgments on the governments and cultures who hate the godly witness of the churches to the coming judgment day of God against their idolatry (as well His mercy on their sins if they but repent), judgments that increase in intensity and extent as the age progresses and the persecution of the saints increases, again there is some accuracy; though I must say that these are not merely “general spiritual principles” but dynamic views of what the saints experience, and the visions are meant to give them encouragement and hope that their God watches over them very closely, and that He is bringing the evil to a climactic end. John is also given to see the scenes behind the worldly events – in chapters 12, 13 and on – and perceive the players involved in the spiritual realm: the woman clothed with the sun representing the OT church, her Son raised out of the reach of the dragon, and she now transformed into the NT church, who is both persecuted physically yet protected spiritually “in the wilderness” for “3½ years”, which is the entire NT church age. We see the beasts (not limited to specific individuals – although Nero was indeed one manifestation of the beast from the sea, as ruler of Rome – but repeated manifestations of antichristian persecuting governments and their leaders), and other visionary scenes which have quite detailed meaning and messages of great import for the saints – rather than a meager fantasy historical interpretation with no distinct message save the depiction of events and persons entering and leaving the world stage, which is definitely *not* what the Lord or John had in mind to reveal to His people!

Speaking of specific prophetic fulfillment, I wonder what you will make of Revelation 18:23, where Babylon the great whore was judged because – among other things – that “by [her] sorceries were all nations deceived”? What does that refer to? And who is Babylon to you?

Another question: pray tell, what is _your_ understanding of the “mark of the beast”?

------

Osborne and Beale:


*Historicist*. This approach began with Joachim of Fiore in the twelfth century. He claimed that a vision had told him that the 1,260 days of the Apocalypse prophesied the events of Western history from the time of the apostles until the present. The Franciscans followed Joachim and like him interpreted the book as relating to pagan Rome and the papacy (due to corruption in the church). Later the Reformers (e.g., Luther and Calvin) also favored this method, with the pope as the Antichrist... Classical Dispensational thinking took this approach with regard to the letters to the seven churches, believing that the letters prophesied the seven periods of the church age. Also, the so-called prophecy movement, those preachers who see every detail in OT as well as NT apocalyptic symbolism as fulfilled in current events (the “newspaper approach” to prophecy), would be aligned with this school. Proponents of this method have tended to take Rev. 2*–*19, including the seals, trumpets, and bowls as well as the interludes, as prophetic of salvation history, that is, the development of church history within world history. Thus the beast/Antichrist has been variously identified with the pope, Napoleon, Mussolini, or Hitler. Because of its inherent weaknesses (its identification only with Western church history, the fact that it must be reworked with each new period in world history, the total absence of any relevance for John or his original readers; see also Beale, _Commentary on Revelation_:46), few scholars today take this approach. (Grant R. Osborne, _Baker exegetical Commentary on the New Testament: Revelation,_ pp. 18-19)

*Historicist II*. There are many versions of the historicist approach. Historicist interpreters generally see Revelation as predicting the major movement of Christian history, most of which have been fulfilled up to the time of the commentator. The majority of these commentators have understood the seals, trumpets, and bowls as unfolding successive events of history in general chronological order. Christ’s final coming is usually seen as very imminent. Typically this view identifies parts of the Apocalypse as prophecies of the invasions of the Christianized Roman Empire by the Goths and the Muslims. Further, the corruptions of the medieval papacy, the reign of Charlemagne, the Protestant Reformation, and the destruction wrought by Napoleon and Hitler have been seen as predicted by John.

This view tries to identify historical movements too specifically and limits the prophecies of the Apocalypse to Western church history, leaving aside the worldwide church. Proponents of this view living at different periods of church history cannot agree with one another, since they limit the meaning of the symbols only to specific historical referents contemporary with their own times.

Another weakness of this approach is that such a projection of future history would have had little relevance to the first-century readers of Revelation. (G.K. Beale, _New International Greek Testament Commentary: Revelation_, p. 46)


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## Tirian (Oct 28, 2013)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Another weakness of this approach is that such a projection of future history would have had little relevance to the first-century readers of Revelation.



This is important - for if there are portions of scripture not relevant at some time in the past (or indeed now), then 2 Tim 3:16 has to be contorted to fit.


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## Peairtach (Oct 28, 2013)

I think a degree of "chronology" can be recognised in the Apocalypse, without being so specific that it is of no relevance to previous generations or subsequent generations. For instance if the seals and trumpets have primary reference to the first century and the destruction of Jerusalem, this encourages subsequent generations of Christians that the enemies of the Church -persecutory Judaism was the first- will be defeated, and that this was predicted in Scripture.

If the number of the beast refers to Nero, it also refers to the Roman Empire and all subsequent beastly powers - unsanctified civil government and the worldly societies that vie for our allegiance.

If the false prophet refers to the Papacy, we know from John's other writings that there were antichrists/false prophets before the Papacy, notably Gnostic "Christianity", and we know that since the Reformation other antichrists have arisen, notably those who promote Liberal "Christianity", and the idol in the place of Christ (antichrist) that they portray.

If Babylon primarily points to the apostate church, the woman of Revelation 11 gone astray, as the Church of Rome, it would be remiss of the careful exegete not to point out that she is "The Mother of Harlots" and not the only apostate church to which the true Christian's attention should be directed in some kind of obsessive way. There is also e.g. Eastern Orthodoxy, Liberal "Protestantism", various types of aberrant "Evangelicalism", the "Christian" cults, etc.

I don't think first century Christians had to be able to understand the Apocalypse, or parts of it, just as clearly as we may do, with careful exegesis, and with historical hindsight, for it to be in some way relevant to them. Some parts of it, some of them may well have understood more clearly than we do.

Not all postmillennialists are like Gentry and squeeze Revelation 5-19 into the first century. I don't know if this kind of preterism among postmillennialists is a new phenomenon associated with the Reconstructionist movement?

Brett: Sorry to be a pedant, but the correct name for the book is Revelation, not Revelations, and the Church Age is a Dispensational term for the current dispensation of the New Testament, before the Millennium.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2


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## JM (Oct 28, 2013)

> Another weakness of this approach is that such a projection of future history would have had little relevance to the first-century readers of Revelation.



In that case couldn't the same be said about all predictive prophecy when it is given? Would the future history revealed in Daniel, the 70 Weeks for example, be consider of 'little relevance' to those who received the prophecy?


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## Jerusalem Blade (Oct 28, 2013)

Hello Jason,

The difference here is that the visions and prophecies – and the letters – were given directly and specifically to the existing churches in Asia Minor, while the principles and dynamics shown in them were applicable to all churches. As noted above, they were the "target audience" of the prophecies, although there were some fulfillments and events to be realized in the future. With regard to the "pharmakeia" prophecies / events (Rev 9:21; 18:23, etc) there was this phenomena in the world at that time (cf Acts 19:19), though the _pharmakeia_ (sorcery) activity evidently becomes rampant throughout the world due to _final_ Babylon's love of these drugs and its promotion of them. This is one of the few distinct and specific historical referents in the book, though there are others, which have not come to pass in their full realizations yet.


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## Cymro (Oct 28, 2013)

Our futuristic brethren would anticipate a literal interpretation of a symbolic truth. In fact
this mark has always existed. These things are to be spiritually discerned. There is no commercial meaning
to be attached to the mark of the beast. We are to see the Gospel market. For example in (Isaiah 55:1),
he counsels " to buy wine and milk without money and without price." John was exiled for selling his spiritual
wares without money and without price, and they tried to silence him to Patmos. And to stand against the Caesars of 
this world down through history marketing the free Gospel of Jesus Christ always brought the opprobrium of 
those who have the mark of the beast. The Apostle Paul puts it like this."But as he then that was born after the flesh,
persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is NOW."


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## JM (Oct 28, 2013)

Thank you Mr. Rafalsky. 

Are we able to view the prophecies of Daniel in the same manner? 

j


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## Jerusalem Blade (Oct 28, 2013)

Jason, I do not think so, at least not exactly “in the same manner”, for the prophecies are not directed as specifically to a target audience as in Revelation. True, there were things said specifically to Nebuchadnezzar, and also to Belshazzar, but the wider-ranging prophecies were not directed to a target audience. Yet Daniel’s prophecies regarding events in ancient Israel did find grateful hearers, which has been well told in Stuart Olyott’s commentary on Daniel, _Dare To Stand Alone_. The angel has been telling Daniel the visions of chapter 8 (Olyott uses his own translation, I believe):
“You have heard the truth, Daniel,” says the angel (26). “Now preserve the vision, because the future will need a record of what you have seen.”

And it did. In those darkest of days, when the people of God were being hounded and killed in the days of Antiochus Epiphanes, they needed and they had the comfort of this chapter of Daniel. Throughout that period they were consoled by knowing that this wicked man could not have stepped on to the page of history without divine permission and that everything he did, however awful, was nothing other than what God had predicted centuries earlier. They knew that in God’s time, and in fulfilment of verse 25, he would at last be removed. To know all this was an indescribable comfort to them in horrific times. (p. 110)​ 
This will be the case again, when the writings of Revelation will be “an indescribable comfort” in _our_ “time of trouble” (Dan 12:1).

So, yes, Jason, here is one example where the Danielic prophecies _did_ speak to a people who needed to hear of God’s sovereign control even in the midst of fierce persecution.


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## JM (Oct 28, 2013)

Understood, thank you.


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## Free Christian (Oct 30, 2013)

Thanks everyone for the replies. A lot of it I am still reading over to take it in properly, as well as trying desperately to understand what some of the words you use actually mean . But one question I have is this. If the buying and selling part of the number of the beast is described as what you believe and do and the things you buy or sell are the word of God preached or preaching the word of God then when and how was this not able to be done for those who have not got it. What I mean is that if as some say the mark is and has been around, that people have it today (unless I read it wrong) then how are those who don't have it hindered from doing those things. Because as I see it none are? So how could people have it and some not and the buying and selling be only for those who have it and yet today, who is not allowed to preach or learn? As I read it the Word says that those who have the mark are able to buy and sell whereas those who do not are not able to? The other part of my question is that if the mark was around well before Revelation, well, isn't Revelation a prophecy, what will come? Why would we/they be told about something to come which was already there? I find it hard to believe that those say before Christ or before Revelation could have had the "mark"! Ok, im putting my hard hat on, let it rip!


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## Peairtach (Oct 30, 2013)

Free Christian said:


> Thanks everyone for the replies. A lot of it I am still reading over to take it in properly, as well as trying desperately to understand what some of the words you use actually mean . But one question I have is this. If the buying and selling part of the number of the beast is described as what you believe and do and the things you buy or sell are the word of God preached or preaching the word of God then when and how was this not able to be done for those who have not got it. What I mean is that if as some say the mark is and has been around, that people have it today (unless I read it wrong) then how are those who don't have it hindered from doing those things. Because as I see it none are? So how could people have it and some not and the buying and selling be only for those who have it and yet today, who is not allowed to preach or learn? As I read it the Word says that those who have the mark are able to buy and sell whereas those who do not are not able to? The other part of my question is that if the mark was around well before Revelation, well, isn't Revelation a prophecy, what will come? Why would we/they be told about something to come which was already there? I find it hard to believe that those say before Christ or before Revelation could have had the "mark"! Ok, im putting my hard hat on, let it rip!



You're not living in e.g. China where churches and what they teach have to be approved by the civil authorities. Even in the United States subtle pressures can be put on people by society not to share the Gospel.

By worldly society's or unsanctified civil government's standards some have the right to share their message while the true Gospel is proscribed or discouraged.

You seem to be taking the passage somewhat literalistically.

I don't know if anyone is saying that the mark was around long before Revelation was written. That would be sort of anachronistic, although there were similar situations for our OT brethren and Christian brethren before Revelation was written.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2


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## Jerusalem Blade (Oct 30, 2013)

Hello Brett,

When you say this, “If the buying and selling part of the number of the beast is described as what you believe and do and the things you buy or sell are the word of God preached or preaching the word of God”, it seems this is far from what is spoken of in Rev 13:17, “And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name”.

I think it sound interpretation to say that if we, even if under coercion, in our hearts give _complete_ allegiance to a government that opposes God and His law, this is counted by God as the beast’s mark in our forehead; and if we by our actions, or lack of actions, support such an antichristian government, this is counted the mark of the beast in our hand.

I do not see this beast as pertaining only to an apostate “Christian” religion (such as the Roman Catholic, though the early WCF sees Rome as such – which edition of the confession I do not subscribe to), although such false religion may indeed be _part _of the beast entity.

All of which is not to say that, in our day, a technology-driven government could not seek to implement its control over populations through an RFID implant connected to a computerized and cashless society. I know this is big among the Dispensationalists, but it certainly is do-able.

Yet, as I have said before, we will err if we think that _only_ such a thing is to bear the mark, and if we abstain from such we will not have it. For one may indeed – as in ages past – have the mark by our inward allegiance and outward actions.

If one sees wicked Roman Catholicism lurking behind every tree, one may miss what is going on in current events, both spiritual and political, blinded by an outdated worldview.

What words are they you have difficulty understanding?


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## Cymro (Oct 30, 2013)

If you think of the seven persecutions under the Caesars: the Inquisitions: The Waldensians and Huguenots; the Killing times
in Scotland; the martyrdoms in England ,Wales and Ireland; the Chinese revolution: the atrocities perpetrated presently in
Pakistan, and Middle eastern countries against believers, and in other areas of the world, then the mark of the beast is wider than 
the efforts of Romanism. Even Protestantism is rejecting the Divine revelation and scorning the faith once delivered to the saints.
'Paganism has returned to the earth in fullest pride, and the affects thereof in human society.' It is only the gospel that is the bulwark
against the impending evil, and its traders will suffer from those who have the mark.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Oct 30, 2013)

Well said, Jeff. And while they have the mark, we have the seal – the protecting power of the Holy Spirit, and the earnest of our inheritance in the glorious kingdom and the presence of our King. And when the Gospel witness is outlawed, we should brace ourselves for a brief onslaught, and lift up our heads as our redemption draweth nigh.


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## Free Christian (Nov 1, 2013)

Hello Steve. That is not what I interpret it as, preaching and hearing, its what I read here that someone else suggested it was. I am merely saying I don't get how that can be so.
Richard, hi, I have read a number of books about how Christians have been persecuted and had their ability to meet and worship greatly hindered or stopped. One I read was Tortured For Christ. I found some of it a bit disturbing to be honest and didn't finish it. I have read about a man in China and what he went through as well as those in Russia. They have it tough and I often pray for those in countries like that where they are persecuted for their Christian beliefs, remembering how easy I have it where I am.
Maybe its just me but I cant see any full 100% explanation, yet maybe, and again maybe its just me, that I logically can accept. There are things that sound right but don't encompass everything. I guess that others do too as I see that there is room left by some for things like chips and so on. 
So to me maybe its like when, though im far from being like any of them, the apostles were told things but didn't get it till they saw them happen later and it is recorded that they remembered what Jesus told them and then they understood. 
To me though as I don't either get it or don't yet get it or perhaps don't because its not yet actually fully happened yet I am best off to leave it for now till I either do understand what some are saying or see it. 
Not a priority for now. My real priorities are being right with my faith, putting it into practice more than I do and simply being a good Christian.
My safety net is, I would not practice anything against God, nor think it, nor accept a mark nor believe the ways of the world. 
What I do see though is an onslaught on Christianity these days from ever quarter. Everywhere you look these are all being pushed upon people everywhere.
Buhdism (yeah I spelt it wrong), Islam, RCC (Pope seems to be popping up everywhere these days in the news), Spiritualism (even our late night TV has hours long segments with spiritualists), Charismatic movements with signs and wonders and their mega churches (money spinners, making merchandise of people), Atheist movements (I noticed on my phone there was and Atheist chat room!), you name it and people are embracing it. Everything except for the truth.
But anyway, thanks all for your time. Its probably me that just cant get my head around things, then maybe not.
But thanks a heap anyway.


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## Peairtach (Nov 2, 2013)

Remember that Revelation is a book in symbols. Even if a government did put microchips in people's foreheads and hands so that Christians couldn't buy or sell without them, it would only be a tangential and partial fulfillment of this prophecy; it wouldn't be completely literal either, e.g. because it says "mark" and not "microchip", and people can be converted to Christ before or after being tatooed or microchipped, and go straight to Heaven with this mark.

In the same way if a monster with seven heads and ten horns emerged from the Medi, it wouldn't be a fulfillment of that particular prophecy at all. Futuristic "literalism" is the purest nonsense and misses the point.

If a person is not regenerated he is committed to the present world system, and one perspective on that state of being unregenerate is that he or she has the Mark of the Beast. Starkly put, he or she is on the same side as Nero and his subsequent manifestations, and is opposed to Christ. Revelation here is just asking us where our allegiances really lie: with the present world system, or with Christ and the powers of the world to come, that have invaded this age and are in the process of overthrowing the Beast ( exemplified but not limited to Nero, the godless Roman state, and the godless Roman society) False Prophet ( exemplified but not limited to the Papacy) and the Whore ( exemplified but not limited to the Church of Rome). Christ by His Word, Spirit, Church and Providence is in the process of removing these squatters from this world by the Holy War of evangelism, just as Joshua, David and Solomon and our OT brethren possessed the smaller territory given to them by God.

We have to ask if we have the Mark of the Beast now. Is our heart allegiance to godlessness, and is that manifested by godless compromises with godless civil government and society, and antichristian church leaders and churches?

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2


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## Free Christian (Nov 3, 2013)

Hello Richard. Thanks for your reply. It still does not explain how one cannot buy or sell. If I or someone else follows God rightly, does not have whatever mark you say it is, how am I or they not able to buy and sell and what are they or I not able to buy and sell?


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## Jerusalem Blade (Nov 3, 2013)

Brett, back in Asia Minor in John's day, if one refused to participate in the immoral celebrations / worship services of the deities that certain trade guilds cleaved to (due to the immorality and idolatry), one was excluded from all business relating to that trade, and could neither sell one's wares nor buy necessary materials. It was considered hostility to these local deities and one would be ostracized from being part of the community life.

This occurs today in many regions of the world whose religions are not Christian – men and women are excluded from the community life if they convert to Christ, and this includes buying or selling. Many families are even driven from their homes and villages, and either wander homeless or try to live in forests or jungles. (Barnabas Aid – which ministers to the persecuted churches – documents this regularly.) It is quite possible such prohibitions could be levied against Christians in the West if anti-Christian sentiment were to become codified into local or national laws. This being excluded from the community's social and economic life has been going on for ages.


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## Peairtach (Nov 3, 2013)

Good points, Steve :thumbup:

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2


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## Free Christian (Nov 4, 2013)

Hello Steve. Yes absolutely I agree with that, that that very thing could take place in time to come. Have often thought that myself, many times. That is if it is implemented so that all Christians cannot buy or sell. It does happen in places in predominantly non Christian countries today yes, but not as yet in a Christian one in the western parts of the world. Like I said, I have my own personal safeguards. 
Richard, hello , you said in an above post, no 13, that it was for preaching and hearing of the Gospel, are you now giving the thumbs up to something different?
Not saying that sarcastically, it's just that Steve is talking about commercial buying and selling!


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## Peairtach (Nov 4, 2013)

I believe in the particular context of Revelation 3:18 it is about the sharing and receiving of the Gospel, but the subtle pressures that beastly forces - unsanctifird and persecutory civil government, and worldly societies - use to achieve these ends, whether they are doing it consciously or unconsciously can be multifarious.

A ban on commercial activities by those who would not bow in allegiance to to a beastly power, civil and/or societal, is just another means by which the Evil One can put pressure on Christians, or force Christians, to curtail the buying and selling of the wine and milk of the Gospel ( Isaiah 55).

In application of this passage from Revelation to ourselves we have to ask what are the pressures, sometimes subtle, put on ourselves by an ungodly society to conceal or downplay - or even abandon - our commitment to Christ.


Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2


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## Fogetaboutit (Nov 4, 2013)

Free Christian said:


> That is not what I interpret it as, preaching and hearing, its what I read here that someone else suggested it was. I am merely saying I don't get how that can be so.




I agree with Richard, I also believe the context of Revelation is about the spiritual battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of Satan. Therefore the primary subject is the kingdom of God (which is spiritual) and how it is affected. That being said of course this translate into various earthy (physical) fulfillment, but we should not single out one of the means employed by the beast to be the only mean. When I mentioned the preaching and hearing of the Word of God I meant the propagation of the Kingdom of God. The sword of the spirit is the Word of God and this is how Satan's Kingdom is defeated, therefore whatever means is used to stop to the Word of God to be proclaimed would fall under that statement.

If you interpret the buying and selling of Rev 13 to be only referring to the persecution of those who do not have complete allegiance to the government and therefore are forbidden to participate in commercial activities this would not be limited to Christians, this would include many people from different stripes (anarchist and revolutionaries) who do not agree with the tyrannical ways of their governments. Again Revelation is about God's kingdom and its strife against the Kingdom of Satan, therefore the proper interpretation of Revelation should focus on this spiritual battle between these two parties respectively.

To properly interpret Revelation you can't jump back and forth from a literal interpretation to a symbolic interpretation. You can't interpret certain portions literally and other portions symbolically. The book of Revelation is a prophetic book from beginning to the end, not a mix of Historical literature and Prophetic literature. If you interpret certain portions literally you risk to miss some significant interpretation to the vision portrayed.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Nov 4, 2013)

Hello Ettiene,

You said,
“To properly interpret Revelation you can't jump back and forth from a literal interpretation to a symbolic interpretation. You can't interpret certain portions literally and other portions symbolically. The book of Revelation is a prophetic book from beginning to the end, not a mix of Historical literature and Prophetic literature. If you interpret certain portions literally you risk to miss some significant interpretation to the vision portrayed.”​ 
Your statement assumes that the book is written all in one genre, and must be interpreted consistent to that. However, it is written in three genres, the epistolary, prophetic, and apocalyptic.

The 7 letters of Rev 2 and 3 were written to 7 actual congregations (although their respective situations reflected conditions in other churches not specifically mentioned, and would be reflected as well in congregations all through NT church history). The problems (and commendable conditions) Jesus addressed were actual, not symbolic, although Jesus possibly used as a figurative name Jezebel (Rev 2:20), referring to an ancient seductress to idolatry – the wife of Ahab.

I would agree with you there would be others than Christians who might refuse any “mark of the beast” if such were a physical thing (and it could be – in early days a tattoo or brand, in latter days a chip), yet one must also reckon that those branded or tattooed could inwardly be a lover of God and follower of His Son. Likewise, those not having any such physical mark could inwardly be giving their allegiance and outwardly their behavior to a beast-government.

Your consistent “symbolic” interpretation is as flawed as the Dispensationalist’s consistent “literal” interpretation. A basic hermeneutical approach is that one interprets according to genre and context.


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## Fogetaboutit (Nov 4, 2013)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Hello Ettiene,
> 
> You said,
> “To properly interpret Revelation you can't jump back and forth from a literal interpretation to a symbolic interpretation. You can't interpret certain portions literally and other portions symbolically. The book of Revelation is a prophetic book from beginning to the end, not a mix of Historical literature and Prophetic literature. If you interpret certain portions literally you risk to miss some significant interpretation to the vision portrayed.”​
> ...



I might not be as well versed in this subject as you are, so forgive me if I missed all of the "genre" used in the book of Revelation. My point was basically to contrast the "literal" with the "symbolic". I do not believe any portion of the book of Revelation should be interpreted literally as a historical book such as the Book of Acts for examples. I have to be honest I'm not sure I know the difference between the "prophetic" and "apocalyptic" genres. As far as I understood apocalyptic is somewhat synonym with prophetic only more specific in it's definition as to "what" is being prophesied. 

As far as the "epistolary" genre, I don't disagree but I would still differentiate it from the genre used in the Pauline and General Epistles since it does seem to have a lot symbolism (candlesticks, the use of the number 7 etc.).

I understood it as difference within the "prophetic" genre but maybe I'm wrong.



> Your consistent “symbolic” interpretation is as flawed as the Dispensationalist’s consistent “literal” interpretation.



I'm not sure what you mean by this statement but it seem to be a premature judgment of my view. I hold to an eclectic idealist view, which I believe was pretty close to your view, my understanding might need some sharpening and I'm open to corrections but to say that my view is as misguided as the dispensational seemed a bit extreme.

The point of my post was to point out that from my understanding the "buying and selling" referred to more than commercial transaction from a secular point of view and was pointing more towards "spiritual" commercial activity (sorry for the poor term that is the only one I could come up with) meaning receiving and sharing spiritual blessing and knowledge through the means given to us in scriptures (preaching of the Word of God and influential application of biblical principles).

My understanding was that this was a reference to the apostacy of the visible church and that faithful servant within the visible church are being silenced from preaching and applying true biblical principles since it is being overrun by unbelievers. We have seen this prior to the reformation and we are seeing this happening to an extant today. Since the beast of the earth seem to be the apostate church and it's in league with the beast of the sea and is pointing people within her midst to worship the beast of the sea. This seem to go hand in hand with the vision of Revelation 17 with the harlot riding the beast, the harlot being the apostate church.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Nov 4, 2013)

Hello Etienne,

Sorry if I spoke too strongly to you! I very much value some of the things you post here at PB, like for instance on the Amil historicism? thread – I kept some of your sayings from there as they were so insightful!

Though the way you asserted so strongly in the brief quote of yours above I was commenting on, I felt it warranted to respond equally.

You’re right that Revelation shouldn’t be interpreted as we would a straightforward historical book, though the 7 letters are specifically to a group of historical churches; true, there is symbolism within them, but they are epistles nonetheless.

Prophetic refers to, in this case, foretelling future event and dynamics; apocalyptic refers to, in this case, heavenly and/or earthly visions given by an angelic being, who often explains their meaning, as was the case in portions of Daniel as well. In Revelation these two genres are intermingled, but may be considered as distinct genres.

To interpret Revelation _exclusively_ as symbolic – with no historical referents at all – is what is called a “consistent idealism”, as exemplified by William Milligan. This kind of idealism is _not_ eclectic or modified, as per GK Beale.

It is really the other side of the coin of those who interpret the book _exclusively_ as literal; they both go too far – which the Dispensationalists do with the literal.

I know you are not of that bent, from your remarks elsewhere, which were quite astute. Nonetheless, I had to remark on what you said.

Regarding Babylon, it is more than the apostate church, as I have sought to clarify (at least for those who hold to the amil view) in this thread: http://www.puritanboard.com/f46/thoughts-babylon-great-revelation-57260/

Nor should the beast from the land be limited to the apostate church, but to all false teaching, whether religious or philosophical. Where are you getting these ideas? Do you subscribe to the 1647 WCF and Standards? They will limit these things to Rome; but the American revision of the WCF does not. This is important, for if we are blinded by limitation to past manifestations of harlot and beasts we will not see current manifestations in their true aspect. Which leads not only to error, but danger – as we will not recognize our enemies in the present.

This is a good book (the online version): _The Returning King: A Guide to the Book of Revelation_, Vern S. Poythress. Another one is _Triumph of the Lamb_, by Dennis Johnson. These are both modified or eclectic idealist / amil.

Good talking with you, Etienne!


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## Fogetaboutit (Nov 5, 2013)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Hello Etienne,
> 
> Sorry if I spoke too strongly to you



Don't worry I wasn't offended, just bit confused, I understand a bit better now with your explanation, thanks.




Jerusalem Blade said:


> To interpret Revelation exclusively as symbolic – with no historical referents at all – is what is called a “consistent idealism”, as exemplified by William Milligan. This kind of idealism is not eclectic or modified, as per GK Beale.



Maybe it's just my ignorance or my choice of word, but when I say symbolic I do not mean that it doesn't have any historic referent at all, but that it shouldn't be interpreted "literally" as written (ie: the "buying and selling" referred to in Revelation 13 has to mean buying food or clothing etc). The reason I say I have an eclectic view is that I do believe that even though the things depicted in some of the visions are fulfilled throughout the entire "millennial reign" I also do believe there's an intensification before Christ comes back (ie: the vision of the vials as opposed to the the vision of the trumpets). 




Jerusalem Blade said:


> Nor should the beast from the land be limited to the apostate church, but to all false teaching, whether religious or philosophical. Where are you getting these ideas?



The reason I believe the beast from the land is the apostate church is because she has the appearance of a "lamb" but speak like a "dragon". I see the Lamb being a depiction of Christ, but this lamb speaks like a dragon meaning she profess doctrines of devils. 



Jerusalem Blade said:


> Do you subscribe to the 1647 WCF and Standards? They will limit these things to Rome; but the American revision of the WCF does not. This is important, for if we are blinded by limitation to past manifestations of harlot and beasts we will not see current manifestations in their true aspect. Which leads not only to error, but danger – as we will not recognize our enemies in the present.



My church does not subscribe to the 1647 edition. Personally I'm not sure which edition is most accurate on this issue. I do not see a sharp distinction between Rome and other religious and philosophical ideology. Rome might be different than it was at the time of the reformation but she is still Rome. I do not believe, as most people today, that Rome's power and influence has diminished since the reformation. Rome tried to overtake the reformation by force and failed but she did not quit, she adjusted her tactics. Rome no longer tries to conform everybody to her specific ideology by force but adopt everybody's ideology to be more pleasing and then seduce them in accepting her. This is why you see Rome at the heart of all ecumenical movement. 

Therefore when you say the beast of the earth or Babylon is not limited to Rome I would says it depends on how you view Rome today. If you view her solely as the Roman Catholic clergy then I might agree with you, but if you recognize her influence across the world in all of its shapes and forms I believe you would not have to make that sharp distinction between her and other religions and philosophies. Also remember that Rome's goal has always been to join the ecclesiastical and temporal realm, she pretty much had it at prior to the reformation and I have never heard or read that she repented from these views.

I believe these book are pretty interesting and might help you understand my reasoning. I'm not saying I view all of these as dogmatic, but I believe they have some useful information.

Ecclesiastical Megalomania: John W. Robbins: 9780940931756: Amazon.com: Books

Washington in the Lap of Rome: Forward by Christian J. Pinto (Volume 1): Justin Dewey Fulton: 9781479328161: Amazon.com: Books

The Secret History of the Jesuits: Edmund Paris: 9780937958100: Amazon.com: Books

Thanks for your feedback I have learned a lot from your posts here on PB, I will try to have a look at these book you recommended hopefully in a near future.


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## Free Christian (Nov 5, 2013)

Hi all. What I have tried to say a couple of times is this. Some suggested that people today could have the mark. But if that were the case then that would also include not being able to buy and sell. There is no hindrance whatsoever to buying and selling today, wether it be commercially or in Word. Maybe to a certain degree in some non Christian countries but not all over the world and certainly not in Christian countries! So if the mark being present also goes with the ability to buy and sell, or not to be able to, then it cant be here! What I read says that those without the mark cannot buy and sell! I don't have it, in any way that one may describe it, and I can speak of Gods Word to anyone, go hear it being preached, buy whatever I have the money for and am not hindered one iota! Are some suggesting that it can be here, the mark, and yet there is not the constraint put upon anyone that the Bible says it will have? That doesn't make sense to me.


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## Peairtach (Nov 6, 2013)

Free Christian said:


> Hi all. What I have tried to say a couple of times is this. Some suggested that people today could have the mark. But if that were the case then that would also include not being able to buy and sell. There is no hindrance whatsoever to buying and selling today, wether it be commercially or in Word. Maybe to a certain degree in some non Christian countries but not all over the world and certainly not in Christian countries! So if the mark being present also goes with the ability to buy and sell, or not to be able to, then it cant be here! What I read says that those without the mark cannot buy and sell! I don't have it, in any way that one may describe it, and I can speak of Gods Word to anyone, go hear it being preached, buy whatever I have the money for and am not hindered one iota! Are some suggesting that it can be here, the mark, and yet there is not the constraint put upon anyone that the Bible says it will have? That doesn't make sense to me.



Be thankful for relative "postmillennial" achievements. as you know these are not enjoyed by many of our brothers and sisters in Muslim countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia, China, North Korea, etc, where the beastliness of the Beast is manifested in a more overt way.

Remember too that there can be more subtle beastly pressures in the West, and that our freedoms cannot be taken for granted, especially with the rise of "political correctness", an apparently resurgent militant atheism and secularism, and the fanatical "gay" lobby with its emperor-has-no-clothes homosexual joke-marriage.

Pray that godless beastliness will be curbed everywhere and that our brothers throughout the world will enjoy the freedom to "buy and sell" the Gospel without let or hindrance or fear of persecution or death, and that the Gospel will have free course and be glorified and flourish throughout the Earth.


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