# Synergy 2004??? (women's conf.)



## KayJay (Mar 19, 2004)

Any ladies going/ever been to this conference???

I'm thinking about it - it looks really awesome..

http://www.rts.edu/synergy/


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## twogunfighter (Mar 19, 2004)

Not a woman, but this does NOT look awesome. 

A. The bio of the lead speaker identifies her as an un-married church leader in a denomination that is confused about the biblical role of women (the EPC). And that is just the start of concerns about this bio. http://www.rts.edu/synergy/PDF/nash_bio.pdf


I Tim5:9 Do not let a widow under sixty years old be taken into the number, and not unless she has been the wife of one man, 10 well reported for good works: if she has brought up children, if she has lodged strangers, if she has washed the saints' feet, if she has relieved the afflicted, if she has diligently followed every good work. [b:34576207c8]11 But refuse the younger widows; for when they have begun to grow wanton against Christ, they desire to marry, 12 having condemnation because they have cast off their first faith. 13 And besides they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house, and not only idle but also gossips and busybodies, saying things which they ought not. 14 Therefore I desire that the younger widows marry, bear children, manage the house, give no opportunity to the adversary to speak reproachfully.[/b:34576207c8] 15 For some have already turned aside after Satan. 

B. Sponsored by Campus Crusade For Christ.

C. Is this scriptural?
[quote:34576207c8]
Purpose

We believe in creating a synergy of evangelical women networked together to
[b:34576207c8]empower and encourage those preparing for, and currently involved in, vocational gospel ministry and leadership in the global body of Christ.[/b:34576207c8]We believe doing so will encourage such
women to prosper in offering their unique gifts and so fulfill their God-given callings.
[/quote:34576207c8] 

the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things-- 4 that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, [b:34576207c8]5 to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, [/b:34576207c8]good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed. 

10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works. 11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. [b:34576207c8]12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. [/b:34576207c8]13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. 


This conference is not about discreet, chaste homemakers but about advancing the feminist agenda within reformed circles


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## a mere housewife (Mar 19, 2004)

KayJay,

I had never heard of this before. I was looking at the website, and was a little uncomfortable with their statement about women in &quot;vocational gospel ministry and leadership in the body of Christ,&quot; as they don't specify what kind of leadership they are talking about. Are they going to be encouraging women to lead outside of a Biblical context (male authority in the church/home)?

My male authority doesn't want me to go away for conferences...


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## a mere housewife (Mar 19, 2004)

Well, two gun fighter answered my question even while I was asking it...


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## Bladestunner316 (Mar 19, 2004)

Isnt synergy the opposite of monergism?

blade


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## KayJay (Mar 20, 2004)

I find campus crusade and female ordinations just as nauseating as you all do. However, this is the FIRST TIME EVER I have heard of a reformed women's conference where it IS about women who ARE interested in THEOLOGY...ok sorry if that sounds &quot;feminist&quot;. Yeh - I didn't see the bio of that speaker...does sound a bit fishy. Really though, I was told about it by an author who is the wife of an RTS prof. whose word means something to me. I have enough discernment to filter out the garbage...and man - I know peresonally like ONE other woman on the planet who loves reformed theology...

I kinda wish I hadn't posted b/c this has so discouraged me. It sickens me the role that women have allowed themselves to be put in - like second class citizens with no passion for truth, just a passion for who can make the best casserole. Do I have a problem with homemakers? NO, I just happen to not be one today...so I don't think that means I'm supposed to sit on the sidelines and wait for a ministry/family to materialize. I think I have some role to minister to women in my life - and perhaps even men but of course not in a structured &quot;teaching&quot; capacity since Paul taught against that. Sorry for the frustration but man - I just am...frustrated and discouraged about the apathy of women...and things like this make me excited. Surely the men can't relate but hopefully will JUST try to understand.


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## KayJay (Mar 20, 2004)

BTW - Blade, yep synergism is the opposite of monergism. The synergy that the conference is named for is not in the sense of salvation. The synergy is in the sense of women combining efforts and joining together in ministry...&quot;networking&quot; and making connections. That is what is exciting to me, considering I don't know ANY reformed women who love theology but my one closest friend.


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## a mere housewife (Mar 20, 2004)

Karen, I am sincerely sorry to have discouraged you: I did not mean to come across in an offensive way, simply to answer your question honestly.

&quot;It sickens me the role that women have allowed themselves to be put in - like second class citizens with no passion for truth, just a passion for who can make the best casserole.&quot;

I think you have gotten the wrong impression of homemaking; most often Christian women who are homemakers are involved in several ministries, all of which are commended by God, including training up children, caring for the needy, managing a household, loving their husand and children, being submitted to their husband-- all of which the Bible commands and commends. All of these things reflect a &quot;passion for truth&quot; on a very daily, practical level. 

My concern about the conference was not because it isn't teaching women to make casseroles. It was a theological reason: God has put the leadership/ministry of women in a certain context, and it seems that the conference may encourage women to step out of that context.


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## KayJay (Mar 20, 2004)

Heidi,

I don't really disagree with anything you said...homemaking is a VERY noble calling. For me, if God ever calls me to that role, one of the most important things that I'll be responsible for is teaching my children my theology (which hopefully, is a Biblical theology) - both verbally and as they observe. 

I'm not saying you think any differently - I'm not sure what you think. I just think it is wrong how so often the &quot;intellectual&quot; aspects of theology are left to men simply because women aren't supposed to teach men. Its as if the belief is that knowledge just isn't for us - we aren't to be intelligent at all, but mindless.

Maybe I'm not making sense - and it sounds like I'm battling some imaginary problem here haha....I've only begun attending a reformed church. Previously I attended a dispensational church where even the MEN thought that theology was simply an intellectual pursuit and had no effect on their lives. 

The bottom line I think is that belief affects action - and women need to be just as learned as men do. Perhaps they just use what they learn in a different capacity. 

We're all theologians whether we believe it or not - and whether we're &quot;good&quot; or &quot;bad&quot; ones, don't you think?


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## a mere housewife (Mar 20, 2004)

Karen, I definitely think you are right that we are all theologians, whether good or bad. I do think that if men feel that theology is all theoretical, then women will probably stay out of it. Most homemakers are simply too involved in the daily, repetetive business of making things go smoothly to apply themselves to what they believe is merely theoretical. I think that there is much less of that kind of thinking in reformed circles: most of the women I know argue with their husbands about theology regularly, catechize their children, relate things back to Christian thought and experience in daily conversations, and would love to read more if they had time!

It is very encouraging to have this kind of fellowhip with other women, and it must be hard to have come from a different background. I'm sure it's even harder when you can't argue with your husband!
(Husbands are great to argue with: they tear everything you say to pieces, and no matter how upset you get at them for it, they still think you're just having a discussion 

Isn't it great that theology is NOT theoretical, but that the truth really does impact us, and set us free.


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## KayJay (Mar 20, 2004)

AMEN! Preach it! only to us women of course 

I just read a book on women and theology from a wife of an RTS professor (she's PCA - so no funny women can be ordained stuff goin on there). She talks extensively about the importance of theology in the life of ALL believers but specifically for women (since she is a woman and all  ). She also talks about the practicality of having good theology. It was super encouraging.

That's SO great about the women you know - I wish I knew more women who were like that...I wish I knew more couples who could debate things! If within the body iron sharpens iron - I think that marriage is one place that DEFinitely should happen.


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## Bladestunner316 (Mar 20, 2004)

Wish there were more girls like you around here

Its tough being the only reformed person among friends and family

blade


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## twogunfighter (Mar 20, 2004)

Kay 

I think that we have talked past each other. I am no advocate for the weak woman. Weak women make poor helpmates. Each woman should want to learn as much theology as she possibly can. There is no double standard that says that men are the only ones responsible to know what they believe. One of my favorite women in the Bible is Abigail. My favorite woman not in the bible is my wife. She is a strong woman. She would have to be. I have been gone for between a third to a half of the last eight years. She has closed mortgages; rented houses; bought and sold cars; overcome flooded basements, burst water heaters, termites, and incorrigible tenants; and lived through three child hospitalizations and one miscarriage all with me in places that had dubious phone service and in rare instances not sure if I was still alive. I could sing her praises all day long but she is really not that remarkable. Most women have equal ability. By comparison leading the local church's hospitality committee is not difficult and casserole making is a cinch. 

I believe that the primary place for a woman to learn theology is at the feet of her husband or her father. I recognize that this is practically impossible in some women's circumstances. Therefore, Biblically the other place for learning is from the older women in the church which could include conferences however I don't really think that was what Paul had in mind. But even if one goes to conferences to receive ones theological learning. This one is not a good one. 

I can only speak to what the brochure reads. But when the stated themes for the conferences is to discuss women in vocational gospel ministry, to enhance their abilities for global Christian leadership etc. then the conference's heart is in the wrong place. God was very specific about Eve's role in Genesis. The role is that of assisting the man as he leads in the direction that God has revealed for him to go. Now if this conference's mission statement were to "Enhance the Reformed woman's theological understanding so that she can make a greater contribution to the stated goals of her leadership," I would have no problem. Maybe you can see if Greenville Theological Seminary is having a women's conference. They would probably have a biblical one. 

Do not think that just because someone is in the PCA that they have biblical ideas about the role of the woman. There is a minority of PCA folks, some elders even, that have been subverted into thinking that women ought to have leadership roles in the church; some even think that there ought to be deaconesses. I have been involved in two churches that were over-influenced by female formal or informal leadership it is never pretty. And BTW if a church is led by women then it is never the fault of the women but of the abdicating "males." If men refuse to lead then women will step up. See the story of Deborah and her trusty sidekick Barak.

We have missed that the man's primary calling is to be a husband/father while the woman's primary calling is to be a wife/mother. Everything other than that is secondary. Single men should be constantly preparing to be husbands and fathers. While women that are single ought to be studying carefully to be wives and mothers. Part of a man's study in husband/father preparation is the learning of leadership(which is intensely difficult and not at all innate). Part of the woman's study of wife/motherhood is how to be a good follower and helper (which is intensely difficult and not at all innate). I just don't see how this conference can do these things given the stated purpose of the conference. 

The bottom line is that the Biblical woman's focus is on the home. Her primary training in all areas to include theology ought to be focused on homemaking. I learn theology to know how to lead my family, teach my children and wife, and prepare myself for greater leadership within my church. My wife learns theology so that she can properly assist me in decision making, so that she can teach our children, and so that she can teach and encourage younger women. We both learn theology so that we have renewed minds that closely mirror the Word of God. If the purpose of this conference is to teach women leadership and a focus outside the home then its goals are themselves unbiblical and the apple tree will surely bear apples. 

Chuck


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## KayJay (Mar 20, 2004)

Chuck,

I'm glad that your wife is a strong woman and that you appreciate her for it.

The only problem I have with what you say is that you seem to think that young single women have no role to minister to the body of Christ. I am a young, single woman and I'm not about to sit around sulking waiting for God to bring me a husband so I can be used by Him. I am a willing vessel - ready to be used NOW in His Church. I don't think my only ministry opportunities are to children. If women who are further along in years than myself are the least bit apathetic towards doctrinal issues, I pray that the Lord would use me to encourage them.

Maybe I wouldn't agree with everything the conference is promoting, however, I do find in my own life that there is REALLY a lack of encouragement and exhortation for people in my situation to get off our derriers and serve the Lord. 

As far as the primary place a woman should learn theology being her husband or father...well ya know what - my dad is a simple guy with simple faith who probably couldn't tell you the 5 points of calvinism. Am I going to marry a man like that? No, I don't plan on it. However, I won't marry a guy who thinks I'm wrong and out of my place if I learn a little theology in seminary rather than from him. I mean - if you have a problem with that you may as well not let your wife read theological works without your approval first. I surely hope you don't feel that way...


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## KayJay (Mar 20, 2004)

OOPS! I forgot the other thing I disagreed with strongly...

Where does this come from - &quot;We have missed that the man's primary calling is to be a husband/father while the woman's primary calling is to be a wife/mother.&quot;

Sounds like something from a radical theonomist perspective...no offense...maybe you are a radical theonomist - dont' know...

anyhow, what about Paul? was his calling not as high as yours? i don't get it...

it just seems like what Paul writes in 1 Corinthians is addressing the same problem that you present - as though marriage is the best, most Godly option or something. I don't think I'd argue for one or the other being &quot;better&quot;...

im sorry if im coming off a bit snooty - this is a touchy subject...


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## Bladestunner316 (Mar 20, 2004)

Girls dont like me anyway so I jsut refer to Paul as my calling enjoy my days getting to know my creator.

blade


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## Bladestunner316 (Mar 20, 2004)

but when the time is right I will strike and I will strike hard no more mormon empire no trace of pentecostalim HA HA HA


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## KayJay (Mar 20, 2004)

hahaha

Nate it is better to be liked by none than to be liked by all the wrong people! :smug_b:


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## Bladestunner316 (Mar 20, 2004)

good point


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## twogunfighter (Mar 21, 2004)

[quote:bd353d5f31]
The only problem I have with what you say is that you seem to think that young single women have no role to minister to the body of Christ. I am a young, single woman and I'm not about to sit around sulking waiting for God to bring me a husband so I can be used by Him. I am a willing vessel - ready to be used NOW in His Church. I don't think my only ministry opportunities are to children.
[/quote:bd353d5f31]

I am not sure what you mean by young, but there are numerous oportunities for ministry in the church for young women. You could assist the ladies who have kids by keeping their kids for them on occasion. You could cook meals for the aforementioned hospitality committee. You could volunteer at the local crisis pregnancy center. Teach sunday school. Sit with the elderly. etc. etc. My question to you is: what influential woman, even single ones, in the Bible is mentioned outside of the context of service and marriage. Look at the previously posted verses. What part of Proverbs 31 suggests that &quot;global Christian leadership&quot; is a part of a woman's calling. A woman's place is in the home, preparing herself to be in the home or teaching other women how to be excellent in managing the home. 

I will interact with the rest of your posts when I have more time.

Chuck


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## twogunfighter (Mar 21, 2004)

[quote:033c4efe2b]
I mean - if you have a problem with that you may as well not let your wife read theological works without your approval first.
[/quote:033c4efe2b]

Actually there have been several times over the last few years that I have told my wife that a certain book was not worth reading. I generally do it as gently as possible and as a suggestion rather than an order. Thus far she has taken my advice. I would certainly suggest that a husband's approval for the wife's theological reading material would be the norm,  just as elder approval of sunday school material is the norm in the church. What wife wouldn't seek the husband's approval of her theology books? I of course am assuming that the husband is Christian. That doesn't mean that the wife will always aggree with her husband theologically. My wife and I are a Paedo/Credo couple. This causes grave difficulties and is a result of my poor leadership.

As to Paul: I worded that whole thing horribly and need to rework it. 

The man primarily effects the world within the context of marriage and family. The woman primarily effects the world within the context of marriage and family. The man's mission is to effect the world directly through acting on it from the base of his family and indirectly through his children. The woman's mission is maintain the base effecting the world indirectly through her husband and children. That's why the Proverbs 31 woman is &quot;known in the gates.&quot; In the church unmarried women that are young should be seeking to find someone to marry unless they are living under their father's authority within the church. Most single women that I know in the church are not living under their father's authority. Men should be doing the same unless they are &quot;as Paul was.&quot; Paul was extraordinary because he was able to remain sexually pure outside of marriage and he did not need apparently the encouragement and help of a wife. However, the creation shows that this is an extraordinary situation, God said in the ordinary situation &quot;It is not good for man to be alone.&quot; 

You have stated that your father is a Christian, have you asked him whether or not you should go to this conference? 

I will not continue with this debate. I believe that I am right but am uncomfortable continuing because I haven't seen that any elders are looking at it to ensure that I am pontificating the truth. So this is just my :wr50: as I understand the historic reformed position on the role of the woman. I also believe that it is the Biblical view.

And I don't think that you are snooty. Just understandably but unfortunately tainted by the feminization of America. 

Chuck


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## KayJay (Mar 22, 2004)

I hear ya...it is a bit pointless to continue the debate because I'm pretty sure we just won't agree...and I definitely don't think I'm a product of the feminization of America. I think America is precisely what has made women (and men as well) conditioned to think of themselves as defined by the opposite sex. This shouldn't be the case with believers, we should first and foremost be defined by our Lord - individually. From birth girls are taught to dream of big weddings and romantic marriages. We're never taught to think of the gift of singleness as a GIFT, though Christ refers to it that way HIMSELF. Anyhow...yeh I'm done debating...

Except you did say: In the church unmarried women that are young should be seeking to find someone to marry unless they are living under their father's authority within the church. 

Sooo....how does a &quot;shamefaced&quot; woman go about &quot;seeking to find someone to marry&quot; exactly???? I've had a few established options - but I wasn't interested b/c these individuals had bad theology. Was I wrong for that?????

I am, surprisingly, quite old fashioned in that department and I am not one to pursue any men. 

ok, done...you don't have to reply, but if you do it will be impossible for me not to reply back - after all I guess i am a feminist  SO BE IT! :bigsmile:


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## wsw201 (Mar 22, 2004)

Karen,

I don't know much about the conference or the folks involved but you might want to run it by the Pastor of your church or call the folks putting on the conference and just start asking questions.

Unfortunately, much of what you have said regarding women and the church is true. Setting the role of men and women aside, both men and women must grow to maturity in Christ so they are not thrown &quot;to and fro&quot; by every wind of doctrine. Most of the Christian women I know consider theology over their heads and don't even try to approach the subject. Usually if there are any classes for women they are more &quot;relational&quot; vs &quot;theological&quot;. I think this is unfortunate. If men or women are not well ground theologically, then they will fall for any and all errors that come down the pike.

Personally I find it refreshing that the ladies on this board want to jump in on many of these theological discussions.


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## twogunfighter (Mar 22, 2004)

Kay

I have received U2U encouragement. I am not sure how much more I will keep up this debate. But I will answer a couple of things. 

[quote:f4a2ddac49]
From birth girls are taught to dream of big weddings and romantic marriages. We're never taught to think of the gift of singleness as a GIFT, though Christ refers to it that way HIMSELF.
[/quote:f4a2ddac49]

What reformed theologian gave you the idea that women are to think of singleness as a gift? Singleness pretty much leads to barrenness which is described as a curse in scripture. 

[quote:f4a2ddac49]
Except you did say: In the church unmarried women that are young should be seeking to find someone to marry unless they are living under their father's authority within the church. Sooo....how does a &quot;shamefaced&quot; woman go about &quot;seeking to find someone to marry&quot; exactly???? I've had a few established options - but I wasn't interested b/c these individuals had bad theology. Was I wrong for that????? 
[/quote:f4a2ddac49]

I'm not sure what a &quot;shamefaced woman&quot; is. I am sure that if I met one I probably wouldn't want to marry her. Ruth was not shamefaced. Nor was Esther, Abigail, Rachel, Zipporah, Mary or Martha. 

Are you begging God to provide you with a husband? While you are praying are you doing everything that you can to prepare yourself to become the best wife you can be or are you embracing your &quot;gift&quot; of singleness? Why would God send you a husband if you are confused about women's roles or if you are not actively training yourself to become a great wife and mother? If instead, you spend your time going to conferences that train you to lead in global Christendom and prepare for vocational Christian service. 

Chuck


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## Halliday (Mar 22, 2004)

Kay,
Submission is a hard command to follow. But it is not about you or your capabilities. God's will/ways move like a forceful tide to fulfill His purpose. His commands flow with the tide. Decern carefully the ministry you are desiring. Don't go against the tide that would bring curses. His will cannot be thwarted. His will is our inheritance. It is humbling but you and/or generations will be blessed by your obedience. It is sad for the western world that since &quot;feminism&quot; women, children, husbands (an entire culture) has been experiencing curses. Let's not add to them. Now as for being men that is not easy also. True godly men that concern them selves with God's honor is hard to find. It takes work and expects presecution. It is truely a &quot;man's&quot; job. Don't wish that upon yourself. God know what He is doing.


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## blhowes (Mar 22, 2004)

This has been a very interesting thread so far. I applaud Kay's desire and zeal to learn more about God (ie. study theology). Its refreshing. I can also appreciate the discerning advice that's been given.

I was just wondering what are some practical biblical ways that a person with Kay's knowledge and zeal can best be used in the church to edify others and bring glory to her Lord (and still stay within in the Biblical boundaries)? 

Bob


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## KayJay (Mar 22, 2004)

Wayne,

Thanks so much - I found your post so very encouraging. I do plan on speaking with my pastors regarding this conference and their views on the role of women because I have never ever thought of myself as a feminist. In fact, I believe myself to be very far from it.


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## KayJay (Mar 22, 2004)

Bob,

Thanks for your encouragement as well. That is exactly the question I am struggling with. Whether people agree with me or not that MAYBE some women are given the gift of singleness (and this is not ALways a curse) - TODAY I have been given the gift of singleness. Perhaps not tomorrow...but today, I have. Too many women spend their lives moping and sulking over their singleness. I have wrestled with that at different points in life, but i refuse to allow that to control me and make me of no use to God.


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## twogunfighter (Mar 22, 2004)

Kay

Halliday is exactly right. The difficulty with the role of man and woman is in living within the role. Please don't assume from the tenor of my posts that I have got it all down. I have great difficulty trying to live up to what God has called me to as a man and my wife also does not find her role a picnic either. We are both recovering feminists that didn't know that we were.

Chuck


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## KayJay (Mar 22, 2004)

Mary and Martha of Bethany - cursed b/c they were single???


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## KayJay (Mar 22, 2004)

Chuck,

I do pray at times for a husband but I pray more than anything that I would BE CONTENT with the Lord's will for me - whatever it may be - even if it is singleness. You seem to think that is a curse....I disagree STRONGLY...I don't think that makes me a feminist. But if it does - well perhaps the Lord is pleased with it. 

Today, I am wedded to Christ - and I am pleased to be His alone - and to question that, or view it as a curse is discontentment I think. 

Perhaps someday he'll give someone &quot;charge&quot; over me - but I pray it will never be a man who would discourage my zeal and longing to learn and be used. 

You ask if I am preparing to be the best helpmate I can be - yes I am. I believe that knowing GOD (theology) is THE BEST prep. any woman can do. If you think that something else a wife does for her husband is more important than that, perhaps you might reevaluate your own priorities. I'm not trying to be difficult - just trying to be real here...

about shamefacedness - it is one of the words Paul commands women to be in the passage where he says they should be modest etc. and that they shouldn't teach men. personally I take it to mean that women are not to be aggressive in their actions towards men - ie, flirtatious and forward as men are to be initiators in relationships with women. You seem to disagree since you think I should, as a single woman, seek a man to marry. What would you advise?


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## mjbee (Mar 22, 2004)

Karen, I'm an older woman, a believer for 18 years. I love Reformed theology. I'm not married, and my father, who was for all intents and purposes an unbeliever, died in 1984, 2 years before my regeneration. If I relied on any man to teach me, I'd still be an idiot. The one reformed church here is fairly new and VERY small. The Spirit distributes to each one individually as He wills (1cor12:11). That may be why theologians write books, and women can read. 

This whole issue has been a problem for me, and the major reason I'm not regularly attending an OPC church at the moment. I don't see a Scriptural warrant for submission to men in general, not even believing men. I should submit to the Lord, and sit at his feet. I should submit to my pastor...and that's why I'm picky about choosing one. I should submit to my husband, if I had one. 

Mormon elders regularly make their way to my door. Mostly for spirited debate about theology. If I were to submit to them, they might never hear the gospel. They have my phone number, and they know they won't convert me, but still they like to visit. Strangely, their ideas about women's roles parallel the views I've seen from men in this group. 

My question to the elders here is this, &quot;Is it usurping authority for a woman to tell the truth in Christ and quote the Scriptures to a man? If God brings an unbelieving man to my door, am I allowed to present the gospel to him, seeing as how nobody else in my house will do so?&quot;
This goes way beyond a focus outside the home. This is a focus on eternity. I thought that was a good thing!

In the Lamb, Bee


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## a mere housewife (Mar 22, 2004)

1 Cor 7:34 &quot;... And the unmarried or betrothed woman is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit. But the married woman is anxious about worldly things, how to please her husband.&quot; Paul obviously did not view a single woman as cursed, or as not fulfilling her entire purpose in the church.

Kay, I think you are to be very commended for seeking to be content above seeking a husband. One of the ideas that actually is associated with feminism is the idea that a woman is somehow less if she is unmarried. It is still definining a woman by what she is in the world, and not by what she is in Christ. In Christ, you have all things: and you can be content with that. I am sure God will never give you second best, whether that means you remain single or get married. Seeking God's will may mean the exact opposite of seeking a husband. This is what the Christian Romances in the bookstore never tell you! Christ is the hero of our &quot;story&quot;; and sometimes you realise that even more after marrying. (Though I have to add here that I adore my husband, and have to be careful that I don't &quot;enthrone&quot; him too much in my heart, rather than the reverse).

Just a suggestion for something you could do as an unmarried woman with a passion for theology: organize a Bible study with other women &amp; teenage girls. They may love to attend something like that, but not have the time to organize it themselves. See if you can get other women involved in studying and presenting certain parts of the discussion. Even a handful can be such an encouragement to each other.




[Edited on 3-22-2004 by a mere housewife]


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## wsw201 (Mar 22, 2004)

[quote:ccf2c17d9d]
Just a suggestion for something you could do as an unmarried woman with a passion for theology: organize a Bible study with other women &amp; teenage girls. They may love to attend something like that, but not have the time to organize it themselves. See if you can get other women involved in studying and presenting certain parts of the discussion. Even a handful can be such an encouragement to each other. 
[/quote:ccf2c17d9d]

This is an excellent idea! Especially with the teenage girls. Young women (as well as young men) are having their faith challenged everyday and need other experienced women to help them along as mentors.


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## KayJay (Mar 22, 2004)

Melissa,

What a neat perspective you have to offer!!! Thanks for sharing your thoughts!!!

As far as submission...yeh I'm all about submission to father, pastors, husband and whatever males are in leadership over me. However, yeh...the idea of submission to random believing men is an odd one when trying to figure out how that would work practically. I mean we are all to submit to one another in love - but what does that mean/entail? I'm not quite sure...


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## luvroftheWord (Mar 22, 2004)

Karen,

Go to the conference, girl. :thumbup: Nobody said you can't BOTH prepare yourself for being a homemaker AND attend an occasional ladies conference. Besides, Carolyn James would be disappointed if you didn't go.


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## KayJay (Mar 22, 2004)

Heidi,

Thanks for your kind words!!!

A friend of mine and myself are hoping to start a &quot;book club&quot; sort of thing at my church where we're hoping to get some ladies together to discuss different theological works. I'm pulling for an abridged version of the Institutes (I'd say the whole thing but I realize that is a daunting task haha). There are some neat women at my church whom I think will have a lot to offer and benefit from something like this! Hopefully some younger women will take an interest and the Lord will increase the hunger in their hearts for Himself!


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## KayJay (Mar 22, 2004)

hahaha, Craig - I missed your post I guess b/c I was posting at the same time...yeh I'M SO GOING and I can't wait to meet Mrs. James...SHE ROCKS!

She told you she'd be devastated eh? :smug_b: haha...


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## luvroftheWord (Mar 22, 2004)

[quote:9e03f2ea9c]
She told you she'd be devastated eh?
[/quote:9e03f2ea9c]

Yes, she did indeed. We tight.


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## KayJay (Mar 22, 2004)

haha,...

you're kidding right?????


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## luvroftheWord (Mar 22, 2004)

:saint:


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## Halliday (Mar 23, 2004)

I suggest you apply your theology to what you love to work at (calling, vocation). &quot;To work is to pray&quot; That is God's will also. So as a single lady. Be a lady (I am sure you are) in all that you do. Apply His word in all that you do. Working for our Lord is not some kind of mission field that a church &quot;lets&quot; you work in. Working for God is your daily life. When you wake up ready to work, not sleep until 12:00 or even 10:00. Take care of your body, it is the Temple of our Lord, eat right, exercise... Keep your living area clean and organized, don't be a slob. God is a god of order. Help your parents out. Help your neighbors out. Make your church beautiful. Go to work with a skip in your walk and a working spirit. Point out or better yet fix injustices in your work place. This takes MUCH theological knowledge. TITHE! 

Apply your theology to your hobbies. Learn, write down, draw, paint, music, carve, mold, grow, cook... &quot;for beauty and glory&quot;.

These are applications for the kingdom of God. You will meet people through them and spread the meaning of the Lordship of Jesus. studies can be ....blah blah blah.


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## KayJay (Mar 23, 2004)

good points halliday - and as Piper says I can even drink orange juice to the glory of God...:yes:


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## Augusta (Mar 23, 2004)

This is actually a good topic because womens roles are so goofed up nowadays. In the old days a woman didn't leave the home until she was given to a husband in marriage. So what about today?? Everything is so different. And am I not correct that when a girl is still in the home that her father is responsible to God for her salvation and then her husband is responsible before God for her salvation once she is married?? The man has all this responsibility which is why we as wives are to submit to them. And what do you do when you have a father who is not reformed and is unaware of or not interested in knowing all of the doctrines of the Bible??

Kay I don't know the answer exactly either but the things mentioned on how you could minister like the crisis pregnancy center or nursing homes etc. sound really good.


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## pastorway (Mar 24, 2004)

*Understanding Submission*

One quick note - the role of submission for women is a role for a wife to her own husband. She is not to be submissive in the same sense to anyone else on earth!!

Eph 5:22-24; Col 3:18; 1 Peter 3:1-6

I am currecntly preaching a series of messages on the roles God has designed within the family, and this is a key point to understand. Submission is a willful act of deference by a wife to her husband as the God ordained head of the home. It is not a woman doing whatever any other man tells her to do!

In the first message several weeks ago we dispelled a few myths about submission. 

Submission does NOT mean:

1. The husband is the final authority in the home (1 Cor 11:3).
2. The husband makes all decisions alone (Eph 5:21).
3. The wife must do everything her husband tells her (Acts 4:18-20; 5:28-29)

(a) Coercion to Sin - if God says no and the husband says yes
(b) Disobedience to God's Word - if God says yes and the husband says no
(c) Imposition of Physical Harm 

4. Submission is demanded by the husband (this defeats the very definition of the word submission). 

In our study we defined submission as:

What submission means - being a helpmate

a) The Meaning - A voluntary response to God's Word and Will in giving up one's independent rights to other believers in general and to ordained authority in particular. In the family, this is the yielding of the wife to her own husband so that she might overcome sin and the curse and serve the Lord by being a true helpmate to her husband.

b) The Manner - as to the Lord

1) As you submit to your husband, you are also submitting to Christ. 
2) You cannot be obedient to Christ without being submissive to your husband!
3) This is "fitting" - Col 3:18 (proper, appropriate - Philemon 8: [i:acd5b6d5d5]legally binding[/i:acd5b6d5d5] - a command from God to the wife)

c) The Motive - the husband is the head of the wife (created order)

1) A Body without a Head is Dead
2) A Body that does not respond to the Head is deformed, injured, dysfunctional

d) The Model - as Christ is the Head of the Church

e) The Magnitude - in everything


We will be studying over the next few weeks the role of women within the church and then the workplace. There are definite ministry opportunities for women within the church, but we must be careful to follow the Biblical roles given for those opportunities.

And one last note - barrenness is not always a curse! Neither is singleness. You can do a search on the PB where we have discussed these things before.

Phillip


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## twogunfighter (Mar 24, 2004)

[quote:c5136a36b0]
barrenness is not always a curse! Neither is singleness.
[/quote:c5136a36b0]

Phillip

You and I aggree on almost all the women's role issues. Although we may disagree on the concept of the father's continuing authority over grown daughters. 

I understand curse this way: If bearing children is a blessing then barrenness must be a cursing. I leave no middle ground. There is either a blessing or a cursing. Some are blessed with salvation others are cursed with damnation; many are blessed with sight and some are cursed with blindness; some are blessed with electric in their home and others are cursed to live without it. Some are blessed with marriage others are cursed with singleness. The gift in singleness is the ability to remain single and not sin. And that is a true gift and blessing, chastity. But when you couple &quot;It is not good that man should be alone&quot; with &quot;every good and perfect gift comes down from the Father of lights&quot; we must say that marriage is blessing and therefore since the opposite of blessing is cursing singleness is therefore a curse. Certainly, it is something that some are called to (ex. Paul) and are gifted (understood as talented) to be able to endure in a holy manner. And they should endure in a joyful manner remembering that their Lord suffered much worse. But that is entirely different than saying that singleness is something that should be looked for and is some kind of Gift (understood as present) and could be thought of as qualitatively better or equal to marriage. 

Chuck


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## a mere housewife (Mar 24, 2004)

&quot;The gift in singleness is the ability to remain single and not sin.&quot;

This is by your definition. You don't prove that from Scripture, neither do you interact with Scriptures that indicate that a single woman is a gift to the church, in that she can care about the things of the Lord, while the married woman has to care about how to please her husband. Don't you think it is a positive blessing to be able to be more devoted to the things of the Lord? Paul did! 

When you couple verses in 1 Cor 7 with &quot;Every good and perfect gift&quot; (the way you interpret it), you could come up with marriage being a curse! 

Blessings are not isolated from the context of God's existence and character. There is no &quot;good&quot; thing that does not stem from the fact that God is good. Because of this, things that are difficult can be blessings because they come from above; and things that are naturally a cause for joy (naturally, because they are an expression of the perfect beauty and benevolence of God) can be abused by a rebellious heart and turned into a curse. You are seeing everything as a standing good or evil, dissociated from any context. 

Did you read the thread on this subject? PastorWay posted some excellent sermon notes. You interact with none of the verses.

Perhaps this is a touchy subject for me, too: I am, according to you, &quot;cursed&quot; with barrenness. And according to you, I am to give in to the covetousness I feel for other people's children, and not be content in the Lord. Perhaps my husband and I will one day be missionaries to a country where Christians are persecuted: but no, I must not think of this as a blessing in the context of God's wisdom and favor in Christ, but only that I am cursed? You would tell me that He is not only giving me second best, He is giving me worst? So-- according to you, He DOES deal with me after my sin-- not according to His mercy?

Paul did see marriage and singleness as qualitatively different: and he saw singleness as being qualitatively better, because one can be less tied down to the cares of this earth. You contend that marriage is qualitatively better because of some inherent good that it possesses. I find Paul's argument more convincing. 

I would rather argue that my marriage has been the greatest blessing to me, because my husband helps me to be more focused on eternity than I could be alone. But I believe it is a gift if someone could be more focused with less energy spent in earthly tasks; and I am happy for them. Our portion is the Lord, not the things of this earth. Our blessing is the partaking of that portion.




[Edited on 3-24-2004 by a mere housewife]


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## Sistrbride (Mar 24, 2004)

mere housewife: I just wanted to give you a hearty AMEN and tell you to PREACH IT SISTER (of course not in the church) :saint:

i was quite shocked by the &quot;singleness is a curse&quot; comment -- and I was so glad you brought up Paul's discourse on singleness v. marriage in 1st Corinthians -- you did a masterful job!! :thumbup:

my dear sister -- your barrenness and my friend kayjay's singleness is a gift from the Lord today -- it may not be true of either of you forever - but for today it is -- and i thank God neither of you are discontent in where the Lord has you today but are seeking to be used by Him in whatever capacity He has for you in this season of your lives!! 

Praise the Lord for both of you!! Thank God that theology is for WOMEN TOO!!


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## twogunfighter (Mar 25, 2004)

Heidi et al,

You bring up hard questions. This will take awhile. I will reply back when I have time.

Chuck

[Edited on 3-25-2004 by twogunfighter]


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## KayJay (Mar 25, 2004)

Chuck,

Thanks for your thoughts/time...though I disagree with you most dogmatically on these issues I appreciate the challenge because though one of us in the end will be wrong - at least the wrong one will help the right one formulate their thinking a bit more, right? :smilegrin: Of course we each think we're right...who knows...maybe we're both wrong haha...

as you contemplate the questions - don't forget this one b/c I think it could be interesting:

[quote:30e920df80]
about shamefacedness - it is one of the words Paul commands women to be in the passage where he says they should be modest etc. and that they shouldn't teach men. personally I take it to mean that women are not to be aggressive in their actions towards men - ie, flirtatious and forward as men are to be initiators in relationships with women. You seem to disagree since you think I should, as a single woman, seek a man to marry. What would you advise? 
[/quote:30e920df80]


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## twogunfighter (Mar 25, 2004)

Heidi, Kay 

About the gift of singleness:

From Calvin's Institutes
[quote:4fd76758ca]
Then what is their species of vows? They offer God a promise of perpetual virginity, as if they had previously made a compact with him to free them from the necessity of marriage. They cannot allege that they make this vow trusting entirely to the grace of God; for, [u:4fd76758ca]seeing he declares this to be a special gift not given to all, (Matth. 19: 11,) no man has a right to assume that the gift will be his.[/u:4fd76758ca] Let those who have it use it; and if at any time they feel the infirmity of the flesh, let them have recourse to the aid of him by whose power alone they can resist. If this avails not, let them not despise the remedy which is offered to them. [u:4fd76758ca]If the faculty of continence is denied, the voice of God distinctly calls upon them to marry.[/u:4fd76758ca] By continence I mean not merely that by which the body is kept pure from fornication, but that by which the mind keeps its chastity untainted. For Paul enjoins caution not only against external lasciviousness, but also burning of mind, (1 Cor. 7: 9.)
[/quote:4fd76758ca]

[quote:4fd76758ca]
Did you read the thread on this subject? PastorWay posted some excellent sermon notes. 
[/quote:4fd76758ca]

I stated that I agreed with Phillip so I don't know why I ought to interact with his verses. I only tried to qualify what I meant by curses because it was becoming evident that I was trying to say something that was different than what you all were talking about. After reading back through the thread, I think that we aggree on alot about the role of women. I think that if our argument is about my definition of the word &quot;curse&quot; then the discussion is really a little superfluous. I certainly realize that some (a very few) men and women are really called to be eunuchs. I will stipulate &quot;curse&quot; as having been an innapropriate and inflammatory word to have used in my argumentation here. I stand by my posts up until the infamous &quot;curse&quot; post. 

All I meant by seek a husband was pray, be available, be presentable, go to church functions etc where Godly men may be found. To a certain extent Ruth shows us how a woman might seek a husband if God puts the right one in her path. She got all dolled up (modestly I am sure) and hung around where he was. I absolutely do not think that you ought to be running around asking men out or meeting them on Eharmony.com. 

I should have ceased argumentation when I said that I would numerous posts ago. So now I am........for real :bigsmile:.

Chuck

[Edited on 3-26-2004 by twogunfighter]


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## a mere housewife (Mar 25, 2004)

TwoGun,

Thanks for explaining. When I asked if you had read the thread, I wasn't referring to this one, but to the thread about Barrenness being a curse, which was a few months ago. I should have made that clear. It was a very helpful thread, in the whole area of curses/blessings.

Thanks also for your sincere attitude.


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## Bladestunner316 (Mar 25, 2004)

whats continence mean?

blade


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## KayJay (Mar 25, 2004)

Chuck,

Great...I'm glad you retracted the sweepingness of your statement. As far as well....what you said below - 

[quote:9a9fdbd56e]
All I meant by seek a husband was pray, be available, be presentable, go to church functions etc where Godly men may be found. To a certain extent Ruth shows us how a woman might seek a husband if God puts the right one in her path. She got all dolled up (modestly I am sure) and hung around where he was. I absolutely do not think that you ought to be running around asking men out or meeting them on Eharmony.com.
[/quote:9a9fdbd56e]

I do pray and In my humble opinion am quite presentable etc. etc. but b/c I am determined to be content with the Lord today I don't go to church functions with the specific purpose to meet men. Know what I mean? 

I guess I just think there is quite a difference between being available as you say (which I think is fine) and...well...hunting (which happens often - and it doesn't meant that the girl does the asking out. plenty of single Christian women are extremely flirtatious and forward in their interactions.) Sorry, I know it seems like I'm debating over minutia now...I just have always had very strong convictions about not being the initiator with men/relationships in any sense. I'm a big Elizabeth Elliott fan - I know she's not reformed per se but I think she really has a good perspective on womanhood.


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## twogunfighter (Mar 26, 2004)

All

I have a grave confession to make. I have been a hypocrite for longer than a year now. I have been pretending to have knowledge that I do not possess. So here goes:

I have no idea what In my humble opinion means!  Can anyone tell me???


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## KayJay (Mar 26, 2004)

HAHAHA its ok Chuck it took me FOREVER to figure it out

it means &quot;in my humble opinion&quot; which - is the ironic part because I said &quot;in my humble opinion i am VERY presentable&quot; haha...

i always like to try to soften the blow of my own arrogance with phrases like &quot;In my humble opinion&quot; haha...


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## twogunfighter (Mar 26, 2004)

Glad to be set straight I thought that everyone was saying &quot;I'M Highly Outraged.&quot; Couldn't understand why you all were so mad:biggrin:


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