# Please help!!



## Sovereign Grace (Jul 31, 2016)

Being a 5 pointer, I hold to all five points of the Synod of Dordt. However, I don't have an answer for every scripture, and there is one small passage I want some help with...


_"I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, *who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.*"_[1 Tomothy 2:1-4]

Now, how does that which I bolded go along with particular redemption/limited atonement/definite atonement? Please, bible thumpers, expound.


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## timfost (Jul 31, 2016)

Most seem to take the stance that Paul speaks of classes people, not individual people (i.e. Calvin). Others see this in terms of God's revealed will and liken it to Ezekiel 18 (i.e. Machen).

Either way, it is not a passage that describes the extent or salvific design of the atonement.


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## KeithW (Aug 1, 2016)

See Calvin's Commentary on Timothy (1 Tim. 2:1-4).

James White did a response to this verse last week.
Radio Free Geneva: Jacob Prasch and the Armenians (OK, Arminians)
See 25:55-37:35. To jump to the conclusion, it is referring to the list given in verse 2 -- aka context.

My all time favorite explanation of the word "all" is by Jeff Pollard in his sermon series "Doctrine of Grace". He walks through the four possible meanings and shows how to look at the context to see which meaning the Bible is using in a given context.
Doctrine of Grace: 'For God So Loved the World' 23 of 38
Doctrine of Grace: 'A Ransom For All' 24 of 38


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## Sovereign Grace (Aug 1, 2016)

Thank you Brothers for your timely responses. I agree that 'all rarely means everyone w/o exception'. It just seems to be more of a universal appeal to all in that context, or at least it does to me. But we can see in places like John 6:37-44, John 8:44, John 10:11, John 17:9-19, Romans 8:28-32, Ephesians 1:1-5, Ezekiel 34, just to name a few, that Jesus' crosswork was focused solely upon His chosen ppl, the sheep. So I know there is a clear disconnect in my thinking here, so that is why I appeal to those who know more than I. Thanks again.


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Aug 1, 2016)

I try to differentiate the two wills of God in this context. 1 Thes 4:3 says: It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality. Though God wills this, we know that not all believers will avoid sexual immorality. In the same way, though God may desire all to be saved, we know that not all will be saved. I think this causes me to see that though God is sovereign over all things, we are completely responsible for our sin, and because we sin we may step outside of God's revealed will, but never outside of His will of decree.


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## timfost (Aug 1, 2016)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> I try to differentiate the two wills of God in this context. 1 Thes 4:3 says: It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality. Though God wills this, we know that not all believers will avoid sexual immorality. In the same way, though God may desire all to be saved, we know that not all will be saved. I think this causes me to see that though God is sovereign over all things, we are completely responsible for our sin, and because we sin we may step outside of God's revealed will, but never outside of His will of decree.



Thanks, Ryan. When I consider the _one_ will of God (that has a manifold expression to our finite minds-- hence two wills), I am both comforted that God has given me standards to live by and comforted that He will work all things that come to pass for my good-- even when sin is involved.

I am content to not fully understand how it works, and content to fully trust that God does, so that we can look to Him as little children depending on their faithful Father.


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## Sovereign Grace (Aug 5, 2016)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> I try to differentiate the two wills of God in this context. 1 Thes 4:3 says: It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality. Though God wills this, we know that not all believers will avoid sexual immorality. In the same way, though God may desire all to be saved, we know that not all will be saved. I think this causes me to see that though God is sovereign over all things, we are completely responsible for our sin, and because we sin we may step outside of God's revealed will, but never outside of His will of decree.



The reason I started this thread was because the universalists(that's what they are, yet they deny it)use that verse as a proof text to universal redemption. I know God does not pleasure in the death of the wicked[Ezekiel 33:11], yet in His holiness, righteousness, and justice, they have to be punished.

Thanks again Brothers for the help.


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## JonC (Aug 5, 2016)

I like what Ryan&Amber2013 highlights. As an example, I believe that God's desire was not that Judas sin, or that he perish. But on the other hand, Judas' actions in rejecting and betraying Jesus were in accordance with God's will. God's desire is that all be saved and come to believe. This fact places disbelief into the category of rebellion against God.

Perhaps the more difficult part of the equation is whether or not God, desiring that all be saved, provided a means for those who don't believe to be saved. I believe He did and the Cross is an expression of God's love for all men (yet all disbelieve). So the Cross is also an expression of God's love towards those He saves - the elect (it is a demonstration of God's own glory).


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