# How does Cessationism account for the following?



## Anton Bruckner (Jan 22, 2007)

ASSIST News Service (ANS) - PO Box 609, Lake Forest, CA 92609-0609 USA
Visit our web site at: www.assistnews.net -- E-mail: [email protected]

Friday, January 12, 2007

Persecution Harder Among Muslims Who Convert to Christianity, But Saved Souls Bring Great Joy to Believers

By Michael Ireland
Chief Correspondent, ASSIST News Service

MALABAR , INDIA (ANS) -- Persecuted Christians soon willingly forget hardships and forgive torture and beatings they have experienced when they see the unlimited number of lost souls who are coming to Christ and experiencing Salvation.

Pastor Paul Ciniraj of Salem Voice Ministries addresses a huge crowd of Muslim background believers during a day of prayer and fasting in Malabar, India.
That was the thrust of a message by Pastor Paul Ciniraj Mohamed, the Director of the Salem Voice Ministries (SVM), based in Kerala, India, as he inaugurated a day of fasting and prayer for persecuted Christians at the annual conference of the SVM held in Malabar, India on Friday, January 12.

Ciniraj likened the experience of these believers to that of a woman forgetting the intense pain of labor during childbirth, and rejoicing when she sees the baby she has given birth to.

Ciniraj said Christian missionaries to the Muslim world and converts to Christianity from Islam are facing severe persecution around the globe.

"Many are murdered, shot dead, burned dead, beaten, kidnapped, lose their houses, lose their children and their families. But their blood is becoming the seed of the church and millions of million Muslims are converting to Christianity day by day."

Salem Voice Ministries is involved in this great task to evangelize and establish the underground house churches in different nations, Ciniraj explaimed.

He continued: "There are about one billion and six hundred million Muslims all over the world. You may think is it possible to evangelize them? Yes! It is possible and within few years all of the Muslim nations will accept Jesus as Lord. Because our Lord 'is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to usward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, ' " (2 Peter 3:9).

Ciniraj said that each and every believer must possess a missionary spirit to convey the Gospel of the sacrificial death and resurrection of Jesus Christ to the Muslims "without pride, prejudice and fear."

He also described how Salem Voice Ministries approach Muslims with the Gospel.

"Allah and Yahweh are not the same God," he said. "If one did not believe in Jesus as the living God then it is impossible to say they are the same God. We, the Christians must be clear that Muslims believe in Jesus, although not the same exact Jesus of the Bible, and (must) be direct and unabashed about our faith when we witness to Muslims."

Ciniraj said the Islamic concept of Jihad is prescribed in both the Koran and Hadith, "But there are some specific protocols in Islam, like women do not carry out Jihad. And also Islam has a lower view of woman than Christianity.

"Although Jesus is acknowledged in the Koran, it has a low view of Jesus. He is portrayed as only human, not as the Savior. According to Islam, Jesus never died on the cross but was replaced by someone before he was crucified. And Islam has a low view of the Bible too," Ciniraj said.

Islam does not believe in religious freedom, he said. "Iit is the most work-based religion in the world. A Muslim works hard to do good deeds and hope that Allah will like him and allow him to go to Heaven when he dies -- but there are no guarantees. And Islam is divided among denominations."

Millions are coming to faith in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit, Ciniraj said. "It is mainly because of eternal security. And also they are attracted by the unconditional love and intimacy with God offered in Christianity."

In his report to the conference, Pastor Shaji Ipe, the General Secretary of the SVM, it was stated that about 500 missionaries of Salem Voice Ministries are laboring for the Gospel in Muslim-populated countries.

"They approach Muslims with prayer and the divine love of Jesus Christ. Firstly they find out and visit depressed families which have any of its members held in prison or have long term sickness. Usually they won't get enough care and love from the neighbors or relatives, but are criticized and abused unnecessarily," Ipe siad.

"(Our) missionaries show them real love with counseling, nurturing, clothing, medications and healing. They assist those families by cleaning the house, cooking the food, bathing the sick, etc. They make concrete relationships with each of the families. At the same time they keep good relationships with neighboring families too. And they gather together children and adults to share with them stories and fun. In this way they start Bible classes and worship services," Ipe continued in his report.

*"Another dramatic development is that many Muslims -- including Shiites in Iran and Iraq -- are seeing dreams and visions of Jesus and thus coming into churches explaining that they have already converted and now need a Bible and guidance on how to follow Jesus.* This is the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy of Joel, 'In the last days, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days…And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved,' " (Joel 2:28-32).

According to the research of Prof. Ilyas Ba Yunus, Al Jazeera.net, a leading Islamic TV channel, reported that six million Muslims are converting to Christianity in Africa every year, Ipe said.

"Thousands of Bangladeshi, Pakistani, North African, Kashmiri, Indian, Central and South Asian Muslims turn to Christ. Around 50,000 youngsters ex-communicated from Islam in Malaysia because of their Christian faith. Some 35,000 Turks converted to Christianity last year. A vast number of Mullahs and Imams accepted Christ. Two million ethnic Muslims converted to Christianity in Russia. 200,000 UK Muslims and 10,000 French Muslims also converted to Christianity," he said.

Ipe concluded his report by quoting of Joel C. Rosenberg, the author of the New York Times best selling political thrillers, THE LAST JIHAD (2002), THE LAST DAYS (2003), THE EZEKIEL OPTION (2005), and THE COPPER SCROLL (2006), with more than one million copies in print, who writes that, "More Muslims converted to faith in Jesus Christ over the past decade than at any other time in human history. A spiritual revolution is underway throughout North Africa, the Middle East, and Central Asia. As a result, a record number of ex-Muslims are celebrating Christmas this year, despite intense persecution, assassinations, and widespread church bombings."

The huge crowd attending the conference included a majority of believers in Jesus Christ from the Muslim community.
http://www.assistnews.net/Stories/2007/s07010059.htm
To see this news item at the original site, log-on to: http://salemvoice.org/news124.html


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## Davidius (Jan 22, 2007)

I don't like being the skeptical jerk when it comes to reports like this, but it seems like the mass conversions of "millions of Muslims" in the East would be a little more of a big topic in the news. Do you consider this a trustworthy source? The percentage of Muslims in India isn't even that high, certainly not high enough (as far as I know) for there to be millions of conversions there. Considering that India has a population of what, a little over a billion, and that the vast majority are Hindu? Even if the numbers were there, that would mean that large chunks of India's population would now be Christian, something that I'm sure would receive real media attention.

As far as the dreams are concerned, perhaps one could differentiate between dreams through which individuals are summoned to follow Christ and charismatic gifts like prophecy, which normally explained the giving of new revelation concerning the Covenant of Grace or explained the Law in more detail. This is still contingent on the validity of this story. But I'm still a newbie in the Cessationist camp so hopefully someone else can deal with this question a little more in-depth. As a former Charismaniac, I'm interested in hearing responses as well.


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## MrMerlin777 (Jan 22, 2007)

I heard Ravi Zacharias a while ago and he was saying the same things about certain Muslims. That they were having dreams and converting, and talking to the nearest Christians they could find to get into the Scriptures. I don't know how many of these accounts are verrified but there seem to be quite a few of them.


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## Chris (Jan 22, 2007)

> many Muslims -- including Shiites in Iran and Iraq -- are seeing dreams and visions of Jesus and thus coming into churches explaining that they have already converted and now need a Bible and guidance on how to follow Jesus.



Missionaries have been telling these sort of stories from all over the world. 

I'm a cessationalist, these stories don't really change my views, and don't trouble me at all. Truth be known, they thrill me to death. I love it. God's working - so why aren't we out there gathering up these sheep?


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## Anton Bruckner (Jan 22, 2007)

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> As far as the dreams are concerned, perhaps one could differentiate between dreams through which individuals are summoned to follow Christ and charismatic gifts like prophecy, which normally explained the giving of new revelation concerning the Covenant of Grace or explained the Law in more detail. This is still contingent on the validity of this story. But I'm still a newbie in the Cessationist camp so hopefully someone else can deal with this question a little more in-depth. As a former Charismaniac, I'm interested in hearing responses as well.



I think cessationism runs the gamut and denounces all revelation as invalid since the closing of the canon


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## Anton Bruckner (Jan 22, 2007)

Chris said:


> God's working - so why aren't we out there gathering up these sheep?


well christianity for the most part is an underground religion in the middle east and Asia, so I think the gathering will be a problem. What usually happens is that the christians become embolden, hence a revolution oops reformation.


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## JonathanHunt (Jan 22, 2007)

I'm a cessationist, and I was converted after having a dream which impressed on me my bondage to Satan (not a revelation, just a statement of FACT!). I believe the Lord caused me to dream that dream. But I don't equate it with being a gift like prophecy.

JH


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## Me Died Blue (Jan 22, 2007)

Basically, the real argument lies in the exegetical and theological realms, and if non-cessationism cannot be defended in those contexts, the supposed stories people tell do literally nothing to validate it. That may sound harsh, but a key reason the stories add nothing without the exegesis is because adherents to Islam as well as various forms of paganism claim such visions and revelation just as frequently - yet that of course does not mean those "messages" are real in the least, much less true. So one of the major problems with experience being used to validate a position like non-cessationism is that it proves too much. If we let charismatics' various stories alone challenge our exegetical demonstrations of cessationism, to be consistent we had better adopt a strong position of Inclusivism as well, to pave the way for experience-testifying Muslims, pagans and the like.

Coming from a Pentecostal background, I definitely have some experience discussing the issue of revelation with charismatics, so I will say that we do in fact almost always need to further engage their claims of experience beyond the above argument alone. Since most of them are _so_ prone to trusting experience, you will need to much more deeply discuss other factors with them to get somewhere, such as how they know God is speaking to them, how it differs from just plain wrong "intuitions" or dreams they've had in the past, and, of course, the biblical role and nature of prophecy and tongues. But even though where they are at requires that you will need to bear with people and address other issues about the _experience factor_ than merely the above argument alone, it is still one of the major things the issue ultimately comes down to, and _logically_ it _does_ sufficiently show that experience alone is not enough - it just might not be enough to get people to realize that without elaboration, other questions to make them realize the nature of their experience, and analogies.


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## CalvinandHodges (Jan 22, 2007)

*Dreams*

Greetings:

Having dreams and visions has nothing to do with cessationism. In his book, Thoughts on Religious Experience Archibald Alexander has a whole chapter on dreams. Alexander was a professor for fourty years at Princeton Seminary, and was so well respected that Charles Hodge named a son after him.

In this chapter he relates the dreams of John Newton of which Newton says was indispensible to his salvation, and John Fletcher of Madeley. Fletcher took his dream as a warning - and it worked greatly to his sanctification.

Alexander points out that not all dreams are from God. He gives some sound advise as to how to tell the difference.

Blessings,

-CH


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## turmeric (Jan 22, 2007)

This story makes me wonder (again) if we are even Christians over here.


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## Davidius (Jan 22, 2007)

turmeric said:


> This story makes me wonder (again) if we are even Christians over here.



What do you mean?


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## SRoper (Jan 22, 2007)

I don't think dreams of Christ prove non-cessationism any more than visions of Mary prove Roman Catholicism.


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## Anton Bruckner (Jan 22, 2007)

CalvinandHodges said:


> Greetings:
> 
> Having dreams and visions has nothing to do with cessationism.
> -CH



Why not?


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## ChristopherPaul (Jan 22, 2007)

CalvinandHodges said:


> Greetings:
> 
> Having dreams and visions has nothing to do with cessationism. In his book, Thoughts on Religious Experience Archibald Alexander has a whole chapter on dreams. Alexander was a professor for fourty years at Princeton Seminary, and was so well respected that Charles Hodge named a son after him.
> 
> ...





Slippery said:


> Why not?



_Thoughts on Religious Experience_ by Archibald Alexander


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## turmeric (Jan 22, 2007)

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> What do you mean?



I mean that when the Gosple goes out in truth, the unregenerate persecute the messengers, just as they did during the Reformation, long after the "world' was supposedly Christian.


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## Davidius (Jan 22, 2007)

turmeric said:


> I mean that when the Gosple goes out in truth, the unregenerate persecute the messengers, just as they did during the Reformation, long after the "world' was supposedly Christian.



I'm still not sure I understand how this relates to us. Do you mean that we aren't Christian because we aren't being beaten and killed?


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## Me Died Blue (Jan 22, 2007)

SRoper said:


> I don't think dreams of Christ prove non-cessationism any more than visions of Mary prove Roman Catholicism.



Exactly.


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## Timothy William (Jan 23, 2007)

I'm not sure I can understand why exactly, but the idea of people seeing visions of Jesus makes me extremely uneasy. Did anyone in scripture ever see a vision of Jesus? Even Paul only saw a bright light when Jesus spoke to him. It may be presuptious of me, but if a Charismatic said they could speak in tongues I would be very sceptical, if they said they saw Jesus appear to them my instincts would say it was downright blasphemous and they were in danger of losing the plot. Trevor Johnson I hope you do not think I am dismissing the experiences of those you know too quickly, but I find true visions of Jesus very hard to believe.


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## Chris (Jan 23, 2007)

trevorjohnson said:


> Dreams of Christ are very common among Muslims and often are a factor in their conversions. It is often the first step in their seeking out Christians.
> 
> This, by no means, requires us to believe that these people are claiming that their dreams are infallible or additions to Scripture. I am Cessationist and yet believe that (some of these) these dreams are real.
> 
> ...




Thanks for sharing that! 







> This story makes me wonder (again) if we are even Christians over here.



I've had that sentiment more than once.......


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## turmeric (Jan 23, 2007)

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> I'm still not sure I understand how this relates to us. Do you mean that we aren't Christian because we aren't being beaten and killed?



I didn't say we aren't, I said that I sometimes wonder if we aren't. I'd _love_ to be wrong on this one and be able to put it out of mind, but the Bible says that if we follow Christ, we _will_ suffer persecution. We aren't suffering, ergo...


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## Davidius (Jan 23, 2007)

turmeric said:


> I didn't say we aren't, I said that I sometimes wonder if we aren't. I'd _love_ to be wrong on this one and be able to put it out of mind, but the Bible says that if we follow Christ, we _will_ suffer persecution. We aren't suffering, ergo...




I suppose it depends on how you define suffering. We live in a country where people would be arrested for attacking us just because we're Christians, unlike in India where the persecutors adhere to a state-sponsored religion and therefore can persecute Christians with impunity. Furthermore, I wouldn't say we don't suffer at all.


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## BlackCalvinist (Jan 24, 2007)

You want suffering ?

Go join Joel Osteen's church.

You'll be crying out for expositional teaching and sound doctrine


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## turmeric (Jan 24, 2007)




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## Chris (Jan 25, 2007)

trevorjohnson said:


> I, too, feel ill at ease sometimes..but these people are either lying en masse or else they are, actually, dreaming of Christ.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The God who circumsizes human hearts ought not have any trouble conjuring up a dream!


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## non dignus (Jan 26, 2007)

Six million conversions a year in Africa? I doubt it.


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## turmeric (Jan 26, 2007)

Our church has missionaries in Africa. I don't know about 6 million, but there seems to be revival going on there. Thanks to the evanjellyfish presentation and the lack of resources, the African church is described as "a mile wide and an inch deep." However, more and more people are being raised up to train pastors for these converts, and a new Bible commentary, contextualized to deal with specific African issues, is being distributed at conferences to train pastors to use it.


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## James (Jan 26, 2007)

I just wanted to stop by and ask a question as well. I remember reading that article and asking the same thing. However, what about the experiences of some of the Scots Worthies? I think of Alexander Peden for one. Also, what about when Knox predicted he'd preach at St Andrews again. I also remember the anecdote on "Word to the Winner of Souls" about the monk who had a dream with Christ Jesus in it and then seeing the reaper in the fields,Martin Luther. I can't remember his name but he,of course, attached himself to the cause of Reformation and labored along side Luther. How do I reconcile it. It was a time of great persecution and movement of the Gospel. Also,these guys all weighed their "experience" by sola scriptura. Any thoughts? Thanks for the helpful discussion, I've wondered about this stuff as well.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 26, 2007)

James said:


> I just wanted to stop by and ask a question as well. I remember reading that article and asking the same thing. However, what about the experiences of some of the Scots Worthies? I think of Alexander Peden for one. Also, what about when Knox predicted he'd preach at St Andrews again. I also remember the anecdote on "Word to the Winner of Souls" about the monk who had a dream with Christ Jesus in it and then seeing the reaper in the fields,Martin Luther. I can't remember his name but he,of course, attached himself to the cause of Reformation and labored along side Luther. How do I reconcile it. It was a time of great persecution and movement of the Gospel. Also,these guys all weighed their "experience" by sola scriptura. Any thoughts? Thanks for the helpful discussion, I've wondered about this stuff as well.



This thread contains a discussion on this point.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 26, 2007)

BTW, Alexander Peden died on January 26, 1686.


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## No Longer A Libertine (Jan 26, 2007)

BlackCalvinist said:


> You want suffering ?
> 
> Go join Joel Osteen's church.
> 
> You'll be crying out for expositional teaching and sound doctrine


Church? Six Flags over Jesus is hardly a church.


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## Theoretical (Jan 26, 2007)

No Longer A Libertine said:


> Church? Six Flags over Jesus is hardly a church.


No, _this_ is Six Flags over Jesus. Although it has also been called the Baptidome and Baptist Square Gardens. These are Arminian Baptists, so no insults are being directed at the Calvinistic ones here on the PB .


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## JoshCasey (Jan 26, 2007)

Haha! Yes, I'm not a fan of that particular church, although I didn't know they were that far off of the edge. 

Can anyone link to some good online Cessationist resources? I haven't been able to find any.


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