# To sing or not to sing (EPers only)



## Me Died Blue (Jul 31, 2005)

If you are EP, but in a non-EP church, do you sing the hymns along with the congregation? Why or why not? Non-EPers feel free to comment on what you think seems like the most logical and consistent thing to do from an EP perspective, but please only vote if you are EP, so the poll will have an accurate reflection of practice among the EPers.


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## Puritan Sailor (Jul 31, 2005)

I sing away. It's a corporate issue. I allow liberty of conscience on this issue, especially when there are sooooo many more important things to worry about in finding a good church to attend.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Aug 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by puritansailor_
> I sing away. It's a corporate issue. I allow liberty of conscience on this issue, especially when there are sooooo many more important things to worry about in finding a good church to attend.



What, in your estimation, is more important than worship?


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Aug 1, 2005)

I don't sing the songs, as it would be violating my conscience and sin.


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## Puritan Sailor (Aug 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by puritansailor_
> ...



Please dispense with the exagerations. My comment was about specifically tolerating hymns. Now to rephrase your question as i think you intended it: What in my estimation is more important than EP? Faithful preaching and teaching. Godly elders. Edifying Christian fellowship and oversight.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Aug 1, 2005)

I wouldn't. I believe it is an individual issue done as a corporate assembly. In other words, the church should all be on the same page in respect what should happen in the corporate worship assembly. If the church is not on the same page, then something else is wrong in the church. There should really be no rogues.


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## Peter (Aug 1, 2005)

Matt, So are you leaving the PCA? I can't really see the logic behind option #2 on the poll. 

Pat, I agree those things are more important, however, they vary in true churches by degree while UH is a quality in churches that is a sin.

[Edited on 8-1-2005 by Peter]


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Aug 1, 2005)

Peter, good question. I am not exactly sure what God will do with us. We are in the midst of speaking with our elders.

I also have to agree with Peter on the logic of #2. Holding to EP means you are, by necessity, saying the other position is wrong (and vice versa), but UH is built on tolerance where EP is not. The difference is that UH could go to an EP church and sing with no problem because the door is wide open to sing "spiritual songs". UH will sing the Psalms, and Fanny Crosby with no problem. The EP says that the assembly can only sing the book of Praise which necessarily excludes UH of all kinds.

[Edited on 8-1-2005 by webmaster]


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## Peter (Aug 1, 2005)

A while back I remember you were asked by a member on the board about joining the RPCNA, you objected that they were too extreme in their EP views, I guess that will be an option now. I will be praying.

A better q. to discuss would be if EPs can in good conscience join membership/attend a UH church w/o partaking of their sin (even assuming they do not sing). I think this was the belief and practice of John Murray for a while. I also attended a UH OPC mission plant for a time while under the conviction of EP.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Aug 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Peter_
> A while back I remember you were asked by a member on the board about joining the RPCNA, you objected that they were too extreme in their EP views, I guess that will be an option now. I will be praying.
> 
> A better q. to discuss would be if EPs can in good conscience join membership/attend a UH church w/o partaking of their sin (even assuming they do not sing). I think this was the belief and practice of John Murray for a while. I also attended a UH OPC mission plant for a time while under the conviction of EP.



For me, as a fanatical hyperist, that would be too hard. 

[Edited on 8-1-2005 by webmaster]


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## Peter (Aug 1, 2005)

But the RPCNA needs a revival of fanatical hyperism


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## Augusta (Aug 1, 2005)

My husband and I don't sing them. Neither does our current intern Pastor who is EP and at least one other couple possibly two in our congregation. We are not overt in this. We sit in the way front or the way back so as not to stick out or draw attention to ourselves.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Aug 1, 2005)

I am thankful to be in a congregation/denomination (that John Murray founded) that sings the psalms exclusively. However, I have had occasion in the past to worship regularly with a non-EP PCA church as well as once-in-a-while visits to other non-EP churches. I also visit Mike Bushell's non-EP (but predominately psalm-singing) PCA church on occasion. On those occasions I do not sing hymns. Public worship is a corporate event, but it is made up of the actions of individuals who are accountable to God, though elders are even more accountable. The Second Commandment prohibits worshipping God as he has not commanded, and singing hymns falls under that prohibition. In such situations I stand silently with respect to others and in honor of the God before whom we all stand.

[Edited on 8-1-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]


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## jfschultz (Aug 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by puritansailor_
> I sing away. It's a corporate issue. I allow liberty of conscience on this issue, especially when there are sooooo many more important things to worry about in finding a good church to attend.



I would agree with Patrick here. There is also submission to brothers in the Lord.

While I am not EP, I would like to see Metrical Psalms be a regular and routine part of non-EP worship. (Also there is much in Scripture outside of the Psalms that can be put to music and sung.) It burned me yesterday morning when a responsive reading of Psalm 100 was followed by a Watts' hymn rather than #1 in the red Trinity Hymnal.

BTW - This is one case where it would be nice to be able to see the poll results without voting!


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## NaphtaliPress (Aug 1, 2005)

I don't sing in such a situation, as it is not a corporate issue but one of individual conscience, which whether i'm right or wrong in holding to EP, would be sin to violate. Also, we need to avoid separatistic thinking in how we partake of the sins of others (see Partakers of Other Men's Sins).


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## Me Died Blue (Aug 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> Public worship is a corporate event, but it is made up of the actions of individuals who are accountable to God, though elders are even more accountable. The Second Commandment prohibits worshipping God as he has not commanded, and singing hymns falls under that prohibition. In such situations I stand silently with respect to others and in honor of the God before whom we all stand.



Well put. Though I am undecided on EP, I could not see myself singing hymns if I were to become persuaded of it, for this very reason that it is both a corporate _and_ individual issue when the body is joined in singing. That is corroborated by the fact that the other elements of worship are both corporate and individual at the same time as well, such as the partaking of the Supper, the reception of the sermon, etc.



> _Originally posted by jfschultz_
> BTW - This is one case where it would be nice to be able to see the poll results without voting!



You should be able to by clicking on the words "[View Results]" at the top-right of the answer box. It worked for me, as I did not vote either. In any case, the current results are 7, 1 and 2, from the top down.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Aug 1, 2005)

I might also make reference to the Confession:



> Chap. XX
> 
> II. God alone is Lord of the conscience,(k) and hath left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men, which are in any thing contrary to His Word; *or beside it, if matters of faith or worship.(l)* So that, to believe such doctrines, or to obey such commands, out of conscience,(m) is to betray true liberty of conscience: and the requiring of an implicit faith, and an absolute and blind obedience is to destroy liberty of conscience, and reason also.(n)
> 
> ...


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## daveb (Aug 1, 2005)

This is one I've had a hard time with but I've started not singing them. I don't really like not singing with others but I'm not sure what else I can do.

I just wish my church sang a psalm, even once, then I could join in as well.


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