# Christian Zionism



## TimV (Feb 16, 2005)

Has this been done to death here? If not, I think this is arguably the biggest threat to orthodox Christianity in the US today.


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 16, 2005)

how so? (just curious...I know everyone here is against it...but I'm wanting logical reasons not just "the jews this and the jews that")


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## TimV (Feb 16, 2005)

There is something about it that either attracts or makes or attracts and makes people who can't think for themselves, and are easily led.

I've lately been thinking about similarities between nazism and Christian Zionism, and have wondered if the rise of both can be traced to civilizations that have been destroyed by Total War.

When Jerry Falwell said that we American Christians have a moral duty to stamp out evil everywhere in the world it reminds me of several of Hitler's quotes concering a duty to rid the world of Bolshevism.

In both cases, Hitler and Falwell, they were members of a Christian Church, had a contempt for historic Biblical teaching on the subject, were products of a radicalised population that had suffer great misery and grave injustice, and could work up tremendous enthusiasm in certain classes of people.

They sure don't like us, calling us dumb names like "replacement theologians" etc..


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 16, 2005)

I don't like the term "replacement"...it kept me away for a decade. I believe we are grafted in, not replacing.


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 16, 2005)

Also in Nazism Hilter and such were murdering and trying to "take over" Europe. In Zionism, most of these Jewish ppl literally had NO place to go...whole ships of ppl died at sea as not a single country would allow them port (I believe our country even turned away a few). They were able to go to Palestine. And most ppl there seemed to accept them EXCEPT the militant muslims (who were backed by Nazi's themselves).


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 16, 2005)

So my question is, since we send help and $$ to others all over the world...why should we not support these ppl in establishing their country, either activily or morally?


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## TimV (Feb 16, 2005)

The question has nothing to do with Zionist Jews. Christian Zionism is an American movement.

Hitler did want to take over certain parts of Europe, but by no means all, or even most, and he was willing to kill large numbers of people to do it. And there were countries willing and able to take in Jews, the USSR in particular, but many others.


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## TimV (Feb 16, 2005)

> And most ppl there seemed to accept them EXCEPT the militant muslims (who were backed by Nazi's themselves).



No, that's backwards. The nazis attempted to settle as many Jews as posible in Palestine, but the British resisted this. In 1937 Adolph Eichmann and his superior Hagen were sent by the SD (a sister organisation of the Gestapo) to meet with Jewish leaders to see if by working together they could get lots of Jews into Palestine, but British Intelligence knew what they were up to, and only gave them a one day visa so they didn't get anything done.

It would have been totally counter productive for the nazis to work with the Palestinian moslems at that time, although later in the war, they did use the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem to help recruit auxilery troops in the Balkans to help with partisan supression.


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 16, 2005)

hmmm...my understanding was that the Nazi government was against Zionism as it was a form of escape for the Jewish ppl. Otherwise why did money have to be snuck around to support it...why did Jewish ppl die in Europe for it?


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 16, 2005)

What do you mean by Christian Zionism? My view of that term is nothing more than Christians supporting Jewish Zionism.


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## tcalbrecht (Feb 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> I don't like the term "replacement"...it kept me away for a decade. I believe we are grafted in, not replacing.



That's why the opponents use it. It makes it sound like Israel and the Church are totally unrelated, and one just stepped in to do away with the other.


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## tcalbrecht (Feb 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> What do you mean by Christian Zionism? My view of that term is nothing more than Christians supporting Jewish Zionism.



"Christian support for Zionism."

http://www.christchurch-virginiawater.co.uk/articles/czdefine1.html


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## Robin (Feb 16, 2005)

Hey Tim,

(BTW, I'm going to be up your way in the next week or so...SLO is very beautiful!)

Having been grieved and astonished in my own arguments with friends caught-up in CZ (the megachurches are teaching it with Rabbis, even!) I offer what I know, so far, about countering this silliness:

- Don't waste time arguing about the Nazi connection; American or any other political stance. There's too much emotional baggage; little Truth to be heard; they are predisposed to hate anyone questioning their position (cultlike.)

-Use Scripture - in particularly the book of Hebrews - which totally defeats supposed claims of a "split" in Messianic Jews in the first century. Paul was a "messianic Jew" as were the Apostles (duh!) and they seem to forget Paul's authority.

-Know Covenant theology and Redeptive history well -- you'll need that to "teach" them what the Scriptures mean.

Examples: The Church is NOT the true Israel (actually) - Christ is the true Israel - and since believers must be "IN Christ" we are then (and only then) "true Israel" because we are united IN Christ. This distinction is important. Then transition to: all true Christians are in COVENANT with Christ - not just running around on their own - which is a contemporary/American problem - so explaining the Covenant connection is key. In fact, it is imperative to lock this down. Teaching where to find the Covenants in the OT and tie it to the New - focusing upon Christ as "Prophet, Priest & King" is the way to go.

CZ is a blight upon the Church - but not (in my mind) the most important threat. The most important threat is when the Gospel gets turned into the Law - through distortion or false teaching. Unfortunately, I fear many CZ folks don't have the True Gospel right. Personally, I had to explain what the Trinity was to my friend - what a mess. Many in the "Messianic Jew" movement are getting rid of the Trinity. It's really no different than TD Jakes or the other TBN heretics that twist theology to serve their agendas.

Reformed Christians are in the very best position to persuade via teaching Scripture - in the contexts of our relationships with these people. I think CZ is not about eschatology but is more driven by theology - it is self-righteous and ironically hateful towards Christ. (!)

Two great books to study (not to give them) are: "The Unfolding Mystery" Edmond Clowney; "The Case for Amillenialism" Kim Riddlebarger. You'll need to cull the meat from these fine works and incorporate them into a Scriptural approach for a CZ friend. (They won't read anything we give them usually.)

Don't buy into the "replacement theology" ad hominum attack. Judaism began when national Israel rejected Christ - not in the OT (as my friend's been taught.) 

At least that's my sightline at this point....

Robin


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## RamistThomist (Feb 16, 2005)

Thanks Robin,
That was very insightful.


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 16, 2005)

Yes, Robin...though I disagree with you on points (placing many that follow the Messianic path as being in league with TDJ and TBN...not where I came from!) I was able to glean something. However, does anyone have any other books to mention...Amellinialism is one thing that I don't buy into.


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## TimV (Feb 16, 2005)

Thanks, Robin. It seems very cultish at times. It also seems our current administration buys into it. I suppose being discipled by Billy Graham has bourn weeds along with fruit.


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## TimV (Feb 16, 2005)

"hmmm...my understanding was that the Nazi government was against Zionism as it was a form of escape for the Jewish ppl. Otherwise why did money have to be snuck around to support it...why did Jewish ppl die in Europe for it?"

Things changed over time. At first the goal was kicking them out, and in fact up until the sneak attack on the USSR in 1941 Jews were leaving by regularly schedualed trains to the east. In fact, the Jewish Zionists and Nazis had the same goals up until the war actually started, then after both east and western civilian traffic was stopped there were several policies towards Jews (and others), including large scale murder of those unfit for labor.

A good example is when the guy running Denmark during the war, Dr. Best, who was an SS General, found out that the German government wanted to deport the 6000 Danish Jews (for both labor and murder) he informed Danish resistance, and helped smuggle all but 400 or so out of Denmark to Sweden. The German government knew that he was in on it, but he said "The goal is ridding Denmark of Jews, and it happened. Too bad you'll have to forgo the pleasure of a large man hunt" or words to that effect, and he wasn't punished by the German government.

And don't forget the ethnocentric attitude towards the victims of WW2. The high figure for the number of Jews killed is 6 million and the high figure for the number of Slavs killed is 40. The fact that you only hear about Jewish trouble has more to do with the ethnic make up of Hollywood writers than it does with what actually happened in Europe during the 30s and 40s.


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 16, 2005)

I also believe the Slavs and Gypsy numbers are higher. But that doesn't mean the Jewish number is lower. The Jewish were the main "public" target. Underhandedly, others became victim...as well as some based upon "scientific reasoning"--the mentally disabled, the chronically ill, the disfigured.


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## TimV (Feb 16, 2005)

"I also believe the Slavs and Gypsy numbers are higher. But that doesn't mean the Jewish number is lower. The Jewish were the main "public" target. Underhandedly, others became victim...as well as some based upon "scientific reasoning"--the mentally disabled, the chronically ill, the disfigured. "

Perhaps I don't understand what you are saying. During the 30s and 40s several times as many Slavs were killed as Jews. The Russian figure by itself is 24 million. I use the high figure for all groups. They are probably all inflated though, as are the numbers for the various other genocides e.g. the Armenian killings.

Be careful of government propaganda concerning wars. They lied back then like they lie today. Disfigured people were not killed by the Nazis. If you want further information, the key word would be "T-4 euthanasia program"


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 16, 2005)

I meant disabling disfigurement...


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## TimV (Feb 16, 2005)

They weren't killed either. The T-4 program targetted a set figure of 5% of institutionalised people in Germany. These were mostly human vegetables and the criminally insane. The program was stopped in Germany due to public pressure, but not before the target was almost reached. There were about 80 thousand adults and a few thousand more babies killed. The idea was that Germany lost the first war due to a lack of food (100,000 Germans starved due to the illegal British blockade). There was a small group of doctors that decided the issue on principles of Social Darwinism, from whence came many Nazi ideals. They mostly had to do with freeing up hospitals, medicines and food by getting rid of those most draining to society. 

The vitims were despached to 6 centers placed around the country, and euthanized (to Christian eyes murdered) by CO gas pumped into the room, and they died like people who kill themselves by locking themselves into a closed garage and turning on a petrol powered car (diesel takes too long) usually by going to sleep.


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## Answerman (Feb 16, 2005)

Christian Zionism is just a symptom of a much bigger problem to orthodox Christianity. Here is a summary statement of the post that I made in the thread titled, What is the toughest Challenge to the faith:

The toughest challenge to the faith is when Christian parents are disobedient to Gods command to give our children a thoroughly Christian education as I believe is explicitly taught in Deuteronomy 6:4-9. If doing so, our children will be prepared to combat anything that they are confronted with both inside and outside of the church. end of quote

My post on that thread lays out my arguments for why I believe that this is the toughest challenge to the Christian faith, not only in this country but to Christendom as a whole.

I think that we were on the right track in this country until after the civil war when the public school system began to replace the biblical method of education that Christians in this country were using (which was more of a Christian discipleship model, lead by the Christian father and Christian leaders).

Of course I believe that it all started as a heart issue when Christian parents, whether they realized it or not, began not to love their children enough to pour their own lives into the education of their children and abducate their responsibility as their God ordained educator, and pass this responsibility on to people who do not love their children, or at least as much but more often than not, do not love them at all, and hand them over to a ever increasingly anti-christian system that spends probably 10 or more times as much time with their children then they do, and then expect their children to be prepared for the battles that the enemy has prepared for them when they leave the house. Give me a break!

What do you think is this not the root of most if not all the problems that Christians have to face in this life? (if you don't include the work of the Holy Spirit of God on their hearts of course)

The humanists are on to something when they say that education is the solution to all our problems, but they have the wrong master. Jesus commanded us to make disciples of all nations and how are we supposed to disciple the nations when we don’t even disciple our own children with the content (God’s word) and frequency (when you rise up…) that God commands in His word.

So in essence if people were as biblically literate as they were in previous generations in this country Christian Zionism would be laughed at as so unbiblical that it wouldn’t even be considered.

End of rant

In Christ,
David

[Edited on 2-16-2005 by Answerman]

[Edited on 2-16-2005 by Answerman]


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## Robin (Feb 16, 2005)

David makes some excellent points. Christian illiteracy fuels all kinds of problems. But - for the most part - it is self-imposed (I think) and indeed has succumbed to the overall Gnosticism within the Church-corp. (Feelings drive discernment.)

Dispensationalism is the required undercurrent of CZ. But, please allow me to unpack something here....

Some may say that the study of eschatology is not essential to The Faith - that it is something, perhaps, we can keep on the back-burner until we get around to addressing it. But what IF eschatology actually "drives theology"? In fact, what IF the entire Bible is eschatalogical in nature - meaning that all of the content is shaped by God's actions in and outside of human history (time) - His revelations of what He says and does is impacted profoundly by understanding His ways and His timing?

One example can be - the dispensationalist mistakes Daniel 7's account of Christ for the Antichrist. (I can't think of a more serious error.) That understanding thoroughly impacts the D's beliefs and actions. Overall, the blasphemy of Dispensationalism is that it teaches a rebuilt temple - but Christ is the true Temple - any sacrifice in the temple after Christ's crucifixtion is as offensive as the Roman Catholic Mass (maybe more?) The focus is off Christ and onto man (Gospel is swapped with Law.)

I think sorting out Covenant theology necessarily requires we lock-down eschatology and (thankfully) these days, we have better study material about all the possible eschatalogical views - in order to do that. The mature Christian must travel in this direction - as uncomfortable it might be. Jesus' teaching style and language is loaded with eschatalogical tone throughout. Dare we neglect noting this?

I think we are limited in understanding what precisely God is doing in the world - with His people and creation - until we soberly, responsibly and Biblically confront the eschatology of the Bible. Paul is a good example for us in this reguard.

Another good resource is "The Bible and the Future" A. Hoekema.



R.


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## ReformedWretch (Feb 16, 2005)

> So in essence if people were as biblically literate as they were in previous generations in this country Christian Zionism would be laughed at as so unbiblical that it wouldn’t even be considered.


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## TimV (Feb 16, 2005)

Thanks, David and Robin.

I will look forward to learning from you both.


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## turmeric (Feb 16, 2005)

There are SOME people in the "Messianic Jewish" movement who believe the Galatian heresy - that gentiles must become Jewish proselytes to be saved. Some are trying to remove any "offense" from Christianity, usually justifying this because of the Russian pogroms and the Holocaust. This would be alright if they stopped at calling Jesus Christ Yeshua ha Mashia (sic) (which is Jesus Christ in Hebrew) but denying the Trinity and demanding that gentiles become proselytes, including being circumcised, is going too far.


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 16, 2005)

Those are the few though, Meg...

Just as they like to say things about calvinists that really only apply to a few.


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## lwadkins (Feb 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Robin_
> David makes some excellent points. Christian illiteracy fuels all kinds of problems. But - for the most part - it is self-imposed (I think) and indeed has succumbed to the overall Gnosticism within the Church-corp. (Feelings drive discernment.)



Lot of good points in this threat. Anti-Intellectualism is a growing problem. I feel that a lot of this is a reaction to the liberalism that came into the chruch from academia. "John Doe" sitting in the pews reacted with confusion & revulsion to the new doctrines being espoused by academia but didn't know how to respond. So it just reinforced the idea that intellectualism was bad and they should rely on their feelings.

Now in many denominations you have ready made believers for any wind of doctrine expressed in terms of "feelings." "Just give me Jesus," but don't ask me to define just who Jesus is. Therefore they are wrapped up in the emotionalism of the issues and are not going to bother to study the concept of Israel as it pertains to the difference between biblical Israel and contemporary national Israel.


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## ReformedWretch (Feb 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by lwadkins_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Robin_
> ...





And Lon...have you ever heard of or seen the former Pro Wrestler "Larry Zbysko"? in my opinion you look like him!







[Edited on 2-17-2005 by houseparent]


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## lwadkins (Feb 16, 2005)

I was him in a previous incarnation.


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