# Great White Throne Judgment



## sundoulos (Mar 24, 2004)

Who will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment?

[Edited on 3-28-2004 by sundoulos]


----------



## sundoulos (Mar 24, 2004)

Is the teaching that only unbelievers will be at the Great White Throne judgment a modern thing?

Is there any clear scriptural proof that believers will not be judged there?

[Edited on 3-29-2004 by sundoulos]


----------



## sundoulos (Mar 24, 2004)

Josh,

What I wonder is where do these ideas get their start?


----------



## luvroftheWord (Mar 24, 2004)

The idea that the Great White Throne Judgment (for unbelievers) is different from the Judgment Seat of Christ (for believers) is a product of Dispensationalism. This mainstream evangelical idea that we see nowadays is probably no older than about 150 years, or however old Dispensationalism is.

Judgment Seat of Christ = Great White Throne Judgment, which means there is only a general judgment of all people, not two seperate judgments.


----------



## Answerman (Mar 25, 2004)

Note what the passage says, &quot;books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life.&quot; and, &quot;the dead were judged according to what they had done in the books.&quot;

So the question that needs to be asked about this passage is, do the books in the last part of the verse include the book of life refered to in the middle of the verse? I would say that the passage seems to indicate that it does.

Jesus seems to be eluding to this day in John 5:28,29, Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Also in some sense everyones judgment is sealed at point of physical death, &quot;And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment.&quot;

Therefore I think a good analogy would be that of someone that is caught in a crime and gets put in jail. Then weeks, months or years later goes before the judge for sentencing.

I would have to agree with Craig, that this idea is a product of Dispensationalism.


----------



## sundoulos (Mar 25, 2004)

My understanding of the Great White Throne judgment is that all of humanity will stand before God, not to be judged with respect to salvation (for the lost are &quot;condemned already&quot; ) but to be judged for their deeds.

Those whose names are not found in Book of Life will be remanded to the Lake of Fire after their judgment determines the degree of their torment.

Those whose names do appear will be judged to determine the degree of their exaltation (No, not in the Mormon sense  ) and reward.

I further believe that God will use those who by faith conquered sin as examples to show that those who succumbed to sin are without any excuse. Sinners will not be able to plead inability.

[Edited on 3-25-2004 by sundoulos]

[Edited on 3-25-2004 by sundoulos]


----------



## blhowes (Mar 25, 2004)

I've been kinda hoping that this thread would grow since, like Josh and others, I've been thinking about this quite a bit lately. 

I've always heard (in dispensational churches) that there are two judgments, one for believers and one for unbelievers. Believers stand before the bema seat of Christ, basically to determine what their rewards will be. The great white throne judgment of is only for the unsaved. 

I wonder if anybody could describe what you think the judgment will be like, contrasting what goes on for the believer vs the unbeliever? When the books are opened, do you envision an unbeliever's sins being displayed for all the world to see (kind of like the chick tract, if you've ever read it, where the sinner stands before the throne and a movie screen goes through every detail of his life)? 

Bob

[Edited on 3-25-2004 by blhowes]


----------



## blhowes (Mar 25, 2004)

Josh,
To tell you the truth, I've never really given the details of the final judgment much thought. It makes sense to me that we'll be there, I'm just not clear about what will transpire. 
Bob


----------



## exscentric (Mar 25, 2004)

True, Premills would usually see the Bema seat as believers and the GWT as lost - in my mind anyway. Some view the distinct possibility of some believers being at the GWT in some manner due to the fact that the Bema seat is viewed to occur pre millennial and there may be saved that live through the end of the Millennium and will need to be finally judged in some manner.:wr50:


----------



## blhowes (Mar 25, 2004)

exscentric,
In your mind's eye, based on your understanding of the scriptures, how do you picture what'll happen at the GWT? Everybody who's ever been born (and unborn babies??) will stand before God. Some are elect and some are not. How would you trace the series of events that will take place next, for those who are elect and for those who aren't?


----------



## Bladestunner316 (Mar 25, 2004)

Think they will allow us to bring cameras? I hope they dont check our bags for store bought candy

blade

p.s. j/k not to detract from the seriousness of the subject im sick and out of it

[Edited on 3-26-2004 by Bladestunner316]


----------



## Bladestunner316 (Mar 25, 2004)

ill try

blade


----------



## blhowes (Mar 25, 2004)

Josh,
Good post. 

Do you, or others, think that the following verses apply to the Christian on the day of judgment? Will every idle word, every secret sin, every evil motive that we've had be brought up then for us to give an account of? Will the elect be spared this?

Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. 

Ecc 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work. 

Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. 

1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

I'm wondering about these things in light of the fact that our sins have been blotted out (Acts 3:19), when we confess our sins we are cleansed from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9), there was a transfer of our sins to Jesus and his righteousness to us (2 Corinthians 5:21), and our transgressions are removed as far as the east is from the west (Psalm 103:12)

[Edited on 3-26-2004 by blhowes]


----------



## exscentric (Mar 25, 2004)

&quot;In your mind's eye, based on your understanding of the scriptures, how do you picture what'll happen at the GWT? Everybody who's ever been born (and unborn babies??) will stand before God. Some are elect and some are not. How would you trace the series of events that will take place next, for those who are elect and for those who aren't? &quot;

Actually, my mind's eye is rather dim but from what I see, I would see only the lost at the GWT. I would suggest lost of all ages will be at the GWT and possibly some believers that had come out of the Millennium.

If there are believers there, I don't know what will occur since we aren't told, I would assume they will be introduced into the presence of the Lord.

The lost will be -- delivered to the Lake of Fire. 

You brought up the thought of unborn babies which is another issue completely, but the lost, if there are any, will be there, and I assume those that God has taken to Himself will still be with Him.


----------



## sundoulos (Mar 25, 2004)

blhowes: I do. I believe everything that we have done on earth for good or for evil will be judged at the Great White Throne. When (IF) Satan charges anything against us, Christ will step in and say, &quot;That sin has been paid for in full.&quot;

I believe the Bema seat judgment and the Great White Throne judgment are one and the same. Some try to differentiate between them because, say they, the bema seat is where the judge sits in a sports competiton. However, it is also where the judge sits (such as at Corinth) to judge men for alledged crimes.


----------



## blhowes (Mar 26, 2004)

[b:8617e5b11a]exscentric wrote:[/b:8617e5b11a]
Actually, my mind's eye is rather dim...

As is my humor at times. Maybe THAT'S why my wife calls me a...dim wit.  

[b:8617e5b11a]exscentric wrote:[/b:8617e5b11a]
I would suggest lost of all ages will be at the GWT and possibly some believers that had come out of the Millennium.

Would that be an a-millennium, a dispensational pre-millennium, a historic pre-millennium, a post-millennium, or pan-millennium? I'm wondering why you think that those that come out of the millennium might be there if the rest won't be? 

[b:8617e5b11a]sundoulos wrote:[/b:8617e5b11a]
When (IF) Satan charges anything against us, Christ will step in and say, &quot;That sin has been paid for in full.&quot;

I can't recall any verses that speak of satan accusing anybody at the great judgment. Can you think of any?

[b:8617e5b11a]Josh:[/b:8617e5b11a]
Thanks for your thoughts. I'll have to take a little time and think about what you're saying, check the scriptures, etc. I've gotta run so I can catch my train. 

Bob

[Edited on 3-26-2004 by blhowes]


----------



## blhowes (Mar 26, 2004)

Josh,
Its neat how every word in the scriptures can be a blessing. I was reading Romans 8:1, which you had mentioned, and the word &quot;no&quot; seemed to jump out at me. &quot;There is therefore now NO condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus&quot;. What wonderful thoughts to start a Friday with. (first, to be in Christ and second, that there's therefore NO condemnation)

Its interesting to think about the judgment day. I agree that we'll be there and I tend to think our sins won't be brought up, but I'm open to correction if I'm wrong. I do hope that they won't be, as many of the things I've thought and done, which I've repented of, would be most embarrassing. 

I was thinking about Revelation 20 this morning. I thought I'd throw out a couple of questions to the group.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God;

Who do you think the term &quot;dead&quot; refers to? Does it refer to all of Adam's race? Or, does it refer to just the unsaved who weren't quickened and are still dead in their trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1)

Rev 20:12,15 ... and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. 

I've always assumed that those who were judged were first judged based on what was written in the books. After they were found guilty, the final step before sentencing was to check to see if their name was written in the book of life. 

Is there any reason to think that I may have the order reversed? Could it be that the book of life is checked first and then the book that contains the works? Seems like it'd be one way to separate the sheep from the goats. Christians would be &quot;officially&quot; declared righteous before all creation and, once the last Christian's name is read, all hope would be removed for the rest who would then be judged according to their works which are found in the books.

Bob


----------



## Radar (Mar 26, 2004)

*silly stuff*

Most dispie prophecy teachers I was exposed to placed the judgment seat of Christ in heaven during the tribulation, which is why the church &quot;needed&quot; to be pre-trib raptured. Each believer would individually stand before Christ and be judged for his life and deeds.

I always enjoy this:

60 sec/min * 60 min/hr * 24 hr/day * 365 day/yr * 7 years =

220,752,200 seconds.

Since most Dispensationalists could put the number of the saved throughout history at at least a billion people, this means each of us gets exactly 0.22 seconds before Christ at our very personal and individual judgment!

If they balk at there being any &quot;time&quot; in heaven, I would balk at their insistence that we needed to be pre-trib raptured to allow for time for the bema to take place then to begin with!


----------



## BlackCalvinist (Mar 26, 2004)

[quote:8f09bb4a30][i:8f09bb4a30]Originally posted by luvroftheWord[/i:8f09bb4a30]
The idea that the Great White Throne Judgment (for unbelievers) is different from the Judgment Seat of Christ (for believers) is a product of Dispensationalism. This mainstream evangelical idea that we see nowadays is probably no older than about 150 years, or however old Dispensationalism is.

Judgment Seat of Christ = Great White Throne Judgment, which means there is only a general judgment of all people, not two seperate judgments. [/quote:8f09bb4a30]

Is that true in historic premillennialism as well ?

**wondering when all the dispie bashing will ever leave the reformed camp**


----------



## blhowes (Mar 26, 2004)

OS_X,
Welcome to the forum. Glad you could join us.

[b:3227549fc4]OS_X wrote:[/b:3227549fc4]
**wondering when all the dispie bashing will ever leave the reformed camp** 

Right....Now!

No harm intended.

[Edited on 3-26-2004 by blhowes]


----------



## BlackCalvinist (Mar 26, 2004)

[quote:5f62e80430][i:5f62e80430]Originally posted by blhowes[/i:5f62e80430]
OS_X,
Welcome to the forum. Glad you could join us.

[b:5f62e80430]OS_X wrote:[/b:5f62e80430]
**wondering when all the dispie bashing will ever leave the reformed camp** 

Right....Now!

No harm intended.

[Edited on 3-26-2004 by blhowes] [/quote:5f62e80430]

No offense taken, blhowes.  I just get sick of all the Dispensational bashing in the reformed camp - particularly on the issue of eschatology. I'm a former 'normative' Dispensational (I'm somewhere between Covenant and Progressive Dispensational right now.... somewhere), but still premill in my eschatology (just haven't decided what kind yet). And all of the amill and postmill folks constantly bashing premill under the banner of bashing dispensationalism really makes me kind of ill, truth be told. It doesn't reflect the more irenic nature that folks prior to Augustine had for premillennialism nor does it accurately reflect the fact that historically, all three views have been active in the reformed community (i.e.- Spurgeon was premill, more historic premill though). 

Even today, Dennis Swanson, MacArthur and Phil Johnson over at the Masters' Seminary are all 5pt Calvinists who hold to premill-pretrib eschatology. The two are not contradictory. And instead of getting side by side with folks like these, some folks spend books on end bashing them over eschatology when we agree on soteriology.

I guess I wish I could see more 'grace' from the reformed community as a whole on the issue of eschatology. Not 'theological relativism' - but a little less of the stuff I saw in an older issue of Modern Reformation (one whole issue devoted to bashing premillennialism... not even noting that one of the very folks on the board of ACE - the late Jim Boice - was historic premill himself!)

&lt;/soapbox&gt;

Well... I'm off to go enjoy the rest of my lunch.


----------



## blhowes (Mar 26, 2004)

OS_X,
Thanks for getting up on your soap box and expressing your thoughts about the &quot;Dispensational-bashing&quot; comments. I'll try and keep those kinds of comments to myself in the future. I guess, since I come from a dispensational background, some things I use to believe sometimes strike me as a little funny.
Bob

PS Any thoughts about who will be at the great white throne judgment?


----------



## sundoulos (Mar 26, 2004)

Will :wr30: accuse the believers at the GWT? I don't know. Much of what we believe/feel/imagine will happen at the GWT is conjecture and speculation. :wr30: is the accuser of the saints, though. 

I haven't seen any perjorative statements against dispensationalists in this thread. Observations about a group of people can hardly be classified as &quot;bashing.&quot; However, Dispensationalism is inherently contradictory to Reformed Theology. Perhaps another thread would be appropriate to discuss dispensationalism and RT.


----------



## blhowes (Mar 26, 2004)

[b:f82e0b0c45]Pastor Paul wrote:[/b:f82e0b0c45]
Will :wr30: accuse the believers at the GWT? I don't know. Much of what we believe/feel/imagine will happen at the GWT is conjecture and speculation. :wr30: is the accuser of the saints, though. 

I'm sure, if given the opportunity, he'd love nothing better then to stand up at the judgment to accuse the saints one last time. I agree that he is the accuser of the saints, as shown in Job and elsewhere. It just seemed like, by the time the multitudes were before the throne, that the devil had already been removed (Revelation 20:10). 

[b:f82e0b0c45]Pastor Paul wrote:[/b:f82e0b0c45]
I haven't seen any perjorative statements against dispensationalists in this thread. 

Did you read what I wrote before I deleted the message?

Bob


----------



## BlackCalvinist (Mar 26, 2004)

[quote:7552a46d8f][i:7552a46d8f]Originally posted by blhowes[/i:7552a46d8f]
OS_X,
Thanks for getting up on your soap box and expressing your thoughts about the &quot;Dispensational-bashing&quot; comments. I'll try and keep those kinds of comments to myself in the future. I guess, since I come from a dispensational background, some things I use to believe sometimes strike me as a little funny.
Bob

PS Any thoughts about who will be at the great white throne judgment? [/quote:7552a46d8f]

I'm from a normative Dispensational background myself. My old pastor sat under Ryrie himself while over at Philadelphia College of the Bible. I've learned to tread lightly in regard to dispensationalism - the bulk of folks there take the 'literal interpretation' hermeneutic seriously and most do carry a very high view of scripture, which is to be appreciated. In fact, I believe that with some non-bashing arguments in place, the Dispensational camp would be the *Best* place for Calvinistic folks to 'post-evangelize' :biggrin: My personal opinion is that consistent 'literal interpretation' leads to (naturally) Calvinistic soteriology. Even Ryrie in his Basic Theology, has a very good section that any reformed person would agree with on the topic of election and reprobation. 

Sorry for going too far off topic. I haven't touched this topic in a while.... and originally, I just voted with the normative 'unbelievers only' at the GWT. I must now confess.... I'm kinda split. I'm thinking that the believers born and living during the millennium would probably also be at the GWT along with all of the unbelievers. At the same time, I'm still on the text of Rev. 20:11-15, which only mention the dead, sea and hell.... places where all of the dead prior to the millennium were placed (and I do believe Rev. 20:4-6 teach premillennialism). I'm tentatively holding my original answer... and I'll probably be looking for some good Covenant folks as well as doing my own study (again) on the subject before I make a final decision on who will be where.


----------



## blhowes (Mar 26, 2004)

[b:2d92499c55]OS_X wrote:[/b:2d92499c55]
the bulk of folks there take the 'literal interpretation' hermeneutic seriously and most do carry a very high view of scripture, which is to be appreciated. 

I have no doubt about that.

[b:2d92499c55]OS_X wrote:[/b:2d92499c55]
I'm thinking that the believers born and living during the millennium would probably also be at the GWT along with all of the unbelievers. 

Interesting. I'm curious why do you think this group of believers would (may) be there and not the rest? 

Thanks,
Bob


----------



## exscentric (Mar 26, 2004)

blhowes asked &quot;Would that be an a-millennium, a dispensational pre-millennium, a historic pre-millennium, a post-millennium, or pan-millennium? I'm wondering why you think that those that come out of the millennium might be there if the rest won't be?
&quot;

Dispensational pre mill.

All believers are raptured pre trib thus any believers left after the mill. is over may be judged. I persoanally don't know that there will be any, as all may be killed in the big battle - since we aren't told I don't jump up and down - sides that takes all me energy.

By the way - don't remember who posted it, but I've never heard that the bema seat is the reason that a pre trib rapture is required. The trib is just a good place to put it.

Heard one thought that suggested the Bema was an instantanious process as the believer goes up at the rapture. (Maybe the fellow had done the math that was suggested earlier :bigsmile: )


----------



## BlackCalvinist (Mar 27, 2004)

[quote:e7964b868c][i:e7964b868c]Originally posted by blhowes[/i:e7964b868c]
[b:e7964b868c]OS_X wrote:[/b:e7964b868c]
the bulk of folks there take the 'literal interpretation' hermeneutic seriously and most do carry a very high view of scripture, which is to be appreciated. 

I have no doubt about that.

[b:e7964b868c]OS_X wrote:[/b:e7964b868c]
I'm thinking that the believers born and living during the millennium would probably also be at the GWT along with all of the unbelievers. 

Interesting. I'm curious why do you think this group of believers would (may) be there and not the rest? 

Thanks,
Bob [/quote:e7964b868c]

Hey Bob,

Might just be my leftover premill-pretrib moorings from my dispensationalist days. In Rev. 19 and other passages, Christ is coming [i:e7964b868c]with[/i:e7964b868c] His saints, not [i:e7964b868c]for[/i:e7964b868c] His saints. [i:e7964b868c]Someobdy's[/i:e7964b868c] returning to earth with Him. Rev. 20 tells me it's those folks (those seated on thrones given the authority to judge) and those who were slain during the great tribulation (beheaded for their witness and not taking the mark of the beast) who will reign and rule with Him for a thousand years. Unless one posits some sort of 'intermediate pre-final-judgment' state for believers prior to their return, my conclusion is that they return to earth with Christ already given their rewards and place for eternity. The bema/GWT distinction is legit, in my opinion. So is the stephanos/diadema (if I'm remembering my greek correctly) distinction. 

Oh wow. I just looked at some things. My view's changing again.

Since these folk (mentioned above) come back already in glorified bodies, judged, those who are left on earth after the rapture and who are alive at the return of Christ are those who are judged (Rev. 20:4).... that kinda leaves unbelievers alone at the GWT, in my opinion. 

I confess, I haven't touched eschatology actively since 4 Views on the Book of Revelation and 4 Views on the Millennium and Beyond, so I'm enjoying this discussion. You might find me coming back and changing something again. Thanks 

[Edited on 3-27-2004 by OS_X]


----------



## blhowes (Mar 27, 2004)

[b:fa8506ddd3]exscentric wrote:[/b:fa8506ddd3]
All believers are raptured pre trib thus any believers left after the mill. is over may be judged. I persoanally don't know that there will be any, as all may be killed in the big battle - since we aren't told I don't jump up and down - sides that takes all me energy.

Just so I understand what you're saying, let's say that after the big battle there are 10 believers left. Do you think they will go through the same judgment (judged by what's written in the books) as the unsaved multitudes or will it be different?

[b:fa8506ddd3]OS_X wrote:[/b:fa8506ddd3]
Since these folk (mentioned above) come back already in glorified bodies, judged, those who are left on earth after the rapture and who are alive at the return of Christ are those who are judged (Rev. 20:4).... that kinda leaves unbelievers alone at the GWT, in my opinion

If I understand your view correctly, wouldn't that leave both believers and unbelievers at the GWT? The church is raptured in Revelation 4 and returns after the 7-year tribulation to reign with Christ for 1000 years. During the 7-year tribulation, the 144,000 Jewish evangelists are sent out to evangelise the world. If we assume that some of those who get saved make it through the Battle of Armagedon at the end of the tribulation period, wouldn't you end up with a mixture of unsaved, glorified saints, and tribulation saints going into the 1000 year millennium?

If so, do you think the &quot;non-glorified&quot; saints will be judged in the same way as the unsaved when its time for the great white throne judgment?

Bob


----------



## twogunfighter (Mar 27, 2004)

Both

I recommend Riddlebarger's &quot;A Case for Amillenialism&quot; to assist in understanding eschatology.

[Edited on 3-27-2004 by twogunfighter]


----------



## blhowes (Mar 27, 2004)

[b:d66f0a77dc]Chuck wrote:[/b:d66f0a77dc]
Both
I recommend Riddlebarger's &quot;A Case for Amillenialism&quot; to assist in understanding eschatology.

Chuck, I can't remember. Did you use to be a dispensationalist? If so, what convinced you to change your hermeneutic? Was this book helpful in that regard?

Bob


----------



## exscentric (Mar 28, 2004)

blhowes asked: Just so I understand what you're saying, let's say that after the big battle there are 10 believers left. Do you think they will go through the same judgment (judged by what's written in the books) as the unsaved multitudes or will it be different? 

Somewhere back yonder I think I said they would be judged in some way, indicating a different way than the lost. Why would a believer be judged like a lost person


----------



## blhowes (Mar 29, 2004)

[b:b1152424d9]exscentric wrote:[/b:b1152424d9]
Somewhere back yonder I think I said they would be judged in some way, indicating a different way than the lost. Why would a believer be judged like a lost person 

Thanks for the clarification. I agree. I can't see how they could be judged like a lost person, since their sins are forgiven, all our sins were transferred to Jesus when he died on the cross, etc.

Bob


----------



## BlackCalvinist (Apr 2, 2004)

[quote:543aaea0b0][i:543aaea0b0]Originally posted by joshua[/i:543aaea0b0]
Kerry:
[quote:543aaea0b0]
Might just be my leftover premill-pretrib moorings from my dispensationalist days.
[/quote:543aaea0b0]

So, you ARE, or you ARE NOT a dispensationalist? Forgive my ignorant confusion. [/quote:543aaea0b0]

I'd see myself as somewhere in the middle. I believe Romans 11 teaches that the only 'people of God' in ethnic Israel are those who are believers in Christ, which puts me outside of normative dispensationalism, a little past progressive dispensationalism and probably closer to covenant theology. I am convinced that Rev. 20:4-6 teaches premillennialism, which puts me in the premillennial camp, though I haven't decided [i:543aaea0b0]which type[/i:543aaea0b0] of premillennial folk I am yet.

I guess you could call me a 'close-to-covenant-progressive-dispensationalist-with-premillennial-and-tentatively-pretrib-eschatology&quot;.

If you want to put a label on me, that is. :bigsmile:


----------



## cupotea (Apr 2, 2004)

[quote:69846de570][i:69846de570]Originally posted by OS_X[/i:69846de570]
[quote:69846de570][i:69846de570]Originally posted by joshua[/i:69846de570]
Kerry:
[quote:69846de570]
Might just be my leftover premill-pretrib moorings from my dispensationalist days.
[/quote:69846de570]

So, you ARE, or you ARE NOT a dispensationalist? Forgive my ignorant confusion. [/quote:69846de570]

I'd see myself as somewhere in the middle. I believe Romans 11 teaches that the only 'people of God' in ethnic Israel are those who are believers in Christ, which puts me outside of normative dispensationalism, a little past progressive dispensationalism and probably closer to covenant theology. I am convinced that Rev. 20:4-6 teaches premillennialism, which puts me in the premillennial camp, though I haven't decided [i:69846de570]which type[/i:69846de570] of premillennial folk I am yet.

I guess you could call me a 'close-to-covenant-progressive-dispensationalist-with-premillennial-and-tentatively-pretrib-eschatology&quot;.

If you want to put a label on me, that is. :bigsmile: [/quote:69846de570]

OS_X,

One question one would have to ask is, who are the 144,000? Are they of the physical Israel or spiritual Israel (the church)? If they are the church, then why is it referenced to the 12 tribes of Israel?

If they are from the physical Israel, then where is the church? Is not the Great Commission given to the church to preach the gospel? Why would God need 144,000 Jewish evangelist to preach when He could have used the church?

Could it be that the church is out the scene in heaven going through the Judgment Seat of Christ and those who are lost face the Great White Thone Judgment?

Just trying to throw a curve ball.


----------



## Humbled_Calvinist (Aug 21, 2004)

Can someone explain what this means then if the great White throne judgment and the Judgment seat of Christ are one and the Same?:
Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away, and there was found no place for them.
Now my question is this, if the Heavens and Earth have "fled away" then how can this judgment be on earth? Is this verse in Rev just figurative language or literal and how do we know for sure?
I used to be a Dispensational and still carry some old baggage, so please forgive me if this sounds like a dumb question. I'm still learning. 


Blessings.


----------

