# Advice to Someone with EP Convictions



## C. Matthew McMahon (May 10, 2016)

This is not a made-up scenario. Someone asked me this question/situation this week.

A man and his family live in an area where there are no churches to *join* that equate with their spiritual convictions.

To make it simple, (it goes a bit further than just one doctrine), the family is Exclusive Psalmody, and no instruments in worship, as well as staunchly Presbyterian in their Covenant Theology and polity.

The only church in their area (besides the Arminian churches, Pentecostal churches, jazz band sessions, and mega seeker churches) is a reformed Baptist church.

They are attending the church, and have been for about a year and a half. It is a mission church that has been in the area for about 5 years, and it has grown to be about 30 people, or so, with a full time pastor.

The family can't in good conscience uphold their BCO, and statement of faith (1689 LBC), because of many issues - instruments in worship (piano), not exclusive psalmists, polity, covenant ideas, credo baptism, etc.

But this is the "most solid church" in their area.

They _were_ members of another Presbyterian church some distance away, but that church has degraded so much it wasn't worth going to anymore. Jazz bands, parades in worship, 15 minute sermonettes, non-EP, etc. It simply wasn't a choice. This church asked this family to leave because their convictions didn't match the church's new seeker movement turn. This family stood for the truth, but it was disruptive to the mission of the church going in the opposite direction.

Here is where it gets sticky. They are still "members" of that Presbyterian church, but can no longer, by conviction and even recommendation from the youth pastor who became the church pastor, remain there. So they started attending the best church they could - a reformed Baptist church, which they still have to travel an hour to get to.

The pastor of the Baptist church wants them to come to all the meetings they have (Sunday School for example) and to_ join the church_.

But their convictions remain unchanged, and so how could they support and uphold the constitution of the church, as well as the creed of the church, if they are persuaded otherwise?

Can they join the church? _How can they_?

It could be that the church pastor allows them to join the church as, say (I'm making this up), associate members. They keep their convictions, but they have some kind of spiritual oversight they agree to.
That seems to be a sticky area as well because in essence, they are simply attending the church with having the ability to have some kind of official oversight they would need to heed. But how would that really work itself out based on conviction, creed, polity, etc.?

To me, that seems a bit confusing.

What do they do? Are they "forced" to join the church and have to sit on their hands on a number of doctrines they hold to because they cannot compromise? 
Do they just _attend_ the church without membership? And if they are not members of that other church, then they really have no membership to speak of at this point.
What do they do long term if no church ever is planted in their area that holds to their convictions? Are they _required_ to move? (And that presents problems with family in their area that they are constantly aiding in various ways if they moved away.)

This kind of scenario is happening all over the US and the world in various similar situations.

How do you become a member of a church you can't really theologically support? What are the options? What are the options long term?

And keep in mind these are not little issues they are dealing with. Worship, sacraments, polity, etc.


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## NaphtaliPress (May 10, 2016)

I would not want to be in that situation; it is a miserable one. The family will be roll dropped from the Presbyterian church eventually I expect. It seems to me they either are upfront and everyone understands their vows are so and so qualified if that is even acceptable (I did this when I became a member of my PCA church which is not EP) or if not, they can't join. It may be they will for a time not be formally members anywhere; but ultimately they may need to move to where there is a church they can join.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (May 10, 2016)

NaphtaliPress said:


> I would not want to be in that situation; it is a miserable one. The family will be roll dropped from the Presbyterian church eventually I expect. It seems to me they either are upfront and everyone understands their vows are so and so qualified if that is even acceptable (I did this when I became a member of my PCA church which is not EP) or if not, they can't join. It may be they will for a time not be formally members anywhere; but ultimately they may need to move to where there is a church they can join.



Yes, they are quite miserable right now. I don't know what their situation will be with the "qualified" vow. 

What if they can't move? Both in-law families live in their area, and their mother in law actually lives with them. The husband does quite a lot for his parents who are much older and need help/guidance.

What if moving isn't an option?


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## NaphtaliPress (May 10, 2016)

If moving is not an option they are basically stuck with what they have. With all they have going that binds them to the place, it would be a mistake to simply try to church plant themselves; and even if there were some of the smaller Presbyterian denominations that might offer that hope, I sure wouldn't do that unless there were 9 other families they knew in the same boat to spread that burden. I would also be extremely cautious of getting "trapped" in the RB church. They have no appeals. It is strange to me that a family would be invited to leave out of the blue; had they made trouble over their views or simply back handed while peaceable making their concerns known? As bad as that church sounds; it has the sacrament right, right of appeal, a presbytery and and general assembly (I'm assuming it is PCA).


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## Cymro (May 10, 2016)

This approximates to my own position, and therefore can sympathise. Attending an independent church which is half hymns and psalms with organ accompaniment is the nearest to our position. But at the outset we made plain our position to the oversight, and declared our avowed intent not to cause contention or disruption to spoil the the peace of the church. This we strictly adhered to, and whilst we ache for a full fledged Reformed Presbyterian worship and system , this is the providence that governs our lives. We could not take out membership, but having to assist in the work of a Reformed Presbyterian Church in Singapore for about 2 or3months a year, we became members there some years ago, and so come under the oversight of that session. It is important and biblical to be under the spiritual juristiction of an eldership. It is not ideal but necessary.


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## Toasty (May 10, 2016)

C. Matthew McMahon said:


> NaphtaliPress said:
> 
> 
> > I would not want to be in that situation; it is a miserable one. The family will be roll dropped from the Presbyterian church eventually I expect. It seems to me they either are upfront and everyone understands their vows are so and so qualified if that is even acceptable (I did this when I became a member of my PCA church which is not EP) or if not, they can't join. It may be they will for a time not be formally members anywhere; but ultimately they may need to move to where there is a church they can join.
> ...



If they cannot move, can they make a request to a denomination that is in agreement with their convictions to plant a church in their area?


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## C. Matthew McMahon (May 10, 2016)

NaphtaliPress said:


> If moving is not an option they are basically stuck with what they have. With all they have going that binds them to the place, it would be a mistake to simply try to church plant themselves; and even if there were some of the smaller Presbyterian denominations that might offer that hope, I sure wouldn't do that unless there were 9 other families they knew in the same boat to spread that burden. I would also be extremely cautious of getting "trapped" in the RB church. They have no appeals. It is strange to me that a family would be invited to leave out of the blue; had they made trouble over their views or simply back handed while peaceable making their concerns known? As bad as that church sounds; it has the sacrament right, right of appeal, a presbytery and and general assembly (I'm assuming it is PCA).



For a while, they were asked to teach a morning Sunday School. But that turned into "theological convictions" that started to emerge. After that, it was all downhill for them. They were instructed by more than one elder, "this is not the place for you."


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## C. Matthew McMahon (May 10, 2016)

Toasty said:


> C. Matthew McMahon said:
> 
> 
> > NaphtaliPress said:
> ...



I don't think they are up for being church planters. They tried that in the past, not long ago, and that didn't work out, was extremely taxing with their hectic schedule, etc.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (May 10, 2016)

Cymro said:


> This approximates to my own position, and therefore can sympathise. Attending an independent church which is half hymns and psalms with organ accompaniment is the nearest to our position. But at the outset we made plain our position to the oversight, and declared our avowed intent not to cause contention or disruption to spoil the the peace of the church. This we strictly adhered to, and whilst we ache for a full fledged Reformed Presbyterian worship and system , this is the providence that governs our lives. We could not take out membership, but having to assist in the work of a Reformed Presbyterian Church in Singapore for about 2 or3months a year, we became members there some years ago, and so come under the oversight of that session. It is important and biblical to be under the spiritual juristiction of an eldership. It is not ideal but necessary.



I agree that is important. That is part of their burden right now with not really having that as they would like.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (May 10, 2016)

Ok, let's say it is a PCA church, and they drop him from the roll in a year. 

Then, he and his family are not members of a church at that point, and the church they are attending will fence the table because he is not a "member of an evangelical church" in good standing. So now, he doesn't get to take the supper.

What does he do?

Can he remain in such a state perpetually like this? Can you be perpetually without membership?


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## NaphtaliPress (May 10, 2016)

They may; but should not. But what exactly remains to be done, if, for instance, there is no accommodation in the vows, if they can't plant, and if they cannot move? Better to lack the ordinance than make a bad decision and compromise the conscience and make vows to uphold things they cannot. They're at least hearing the word. Are there children; and if baptized will they be viewed as baptized and able to partake of the supper or would there be an insistence on re-baptism? It really depends on what is expected of them in their vows of membership and what they will be accommodated or what not. 



C. Matthew McMahon said:


> Can he remain in such a state perpetually like this?


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## Toasty (May 10, 2016)

C. Matthew McMahon said:


> Toasty said:
> 
> 
> > C. Matthew McMahon said:
> ...



Can someone else a plant a church in their area?


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## Toasty (May 10, 2016)

They need to find a way to move.


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## Southern Presbyterian (May 10, 2016)

Have they discussed with the Baptist Pastor under what terms they might join the church? If they could come to agreement that their earnestly held beliefs are not up for debate, and they would not use them to cause disruption of the local body, could they not join for the sake of oversight and fellowship with local saints?


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## C. Matthew McMahon (May 10, 2016)

Southern Presbyterian said:


> Have they discussed with the Baptist Pastor under what terms they might join the church? If they could come to agreement that their earnestly held beliefs are not up for debate, and they would not use them to cause disruption of the local body, could they not join for the sake of oversight and fellowship with local saints?



They sit down with them this Thursday.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (May 10, 2016)

Let me change up the original question a little. Say, its not a RB church but an OPC church they are going to.

Same problems apply. Instruments in worship, not EP, etc. etc.

How would that shift the answer?


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## Southern Presbyterian (May 10, 2016)

C. Matthew McMahon said:


> Let me change up the original question a little. Say, its not a RB church but an OPC church they are going to.
> 
> Same problems apply. Instruments in worship, not EP, etc. etc.
> 
> How would that shift the answer?




At least there should be no issues over children and baptism or form of government. I would think that as long as neither side was contentious over the points of difference that this would be a noticeably better situation to be in.


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## KeithW (May 10, 2016)

Southern Presbyterian said:


> Have they discussed with the Baptist Pastor under what terms they might join the church? If they could come to agreement that their earnestly held beliefs are not up for debate, and they would not use them to cause disruption of the local body, could they not join for the sake of oversight and fellowship with local saints?


This is the situation I have found myself in. I have checked _all _of the churches in my area and there is a lot of really bad unbiblical teaching, including at the local Baptist/Presbyterian/Reformed churches. Of all places, I am now attending a Lutheran church because the sermons are good and so are the Bible studies and the people in them. I talked with the pastor in private and explained why I do not believe the doctrines which are uniquely Lutheran and that I will not disrupt his church about that. We have also had conversations on points we do agree with like the Gospel and God's sovereignty. In the latter he is more a follower of Luther than of the Lutheran Church. As a result of our talks he invited me to become a member. Should not a lot be dependent on who the pastor is and what he believes and teaches, and not just on which denomination he is in?

I did not see it mentioned about the folks in the original post, are the sermons/teaching they are hearing/receiving any good? What about the Gospel?


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## Ed Walsh (May 10, 2016)

Southern Presbyterian said:


> Have they discussed with the Baptist Pastor under what terms they might join the church?



I wouldn't think too much of the Baptist church if they let them join. How could they?
Isn't just staying home for worship temporarily better than the alternative(s)?


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## C. Matthew McMahon (May 10, 2016)

KeithW said:


> Southern Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> > Have they discussed with the Baptist Pastor under what terms they might join the church? If they could come to agreement that their earnestly held beliefs are not up for debate, and they would not use them to cause disruption of the local body, could they not join for the sake of oversight and fellowship with local saints?
> ...



Preaching - good. Gospel - good.

They've been attending this church for about a year, and in that time they felt "pressed" about issues they disagree with. 

My thoughts to them were to ask "how much pressure" will the pastor and elder there place on them about anything they disagree with if they joined? If they are good with receiving them having some important differentiating points, then they will have to submit to the church in what they can agree with. But that seems to be a little of a sticky wicket. Anyone could say, "I agree with X Y Z, A, B and C; but I disagree with M, N, O, R, T and V. " Who gets to decide that?
But it would have to be something brought up and mutually agreed upon. The pastor and elder already said they would want to sit with them to "discuss" their views over the next year as well. That translates to me theological missions to the family. How far might that go? How far would one want it to go?


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## Reformed Covenanter (May 10, 2016)

I have not read every reply in this thread, so apologies if someone has already made this point, but if there is not a solid church in the area where they can be accepted as members they could try distance membership of a denomination that is willing to accept them and would only require them to attend when possible. For the rest of the time, they could attend the Baptist church.


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## NaphtaliPress (May 10, 2016)

If there is pressure, which is what I was concerned about if there was, if it were me, I think the matter is settled. Don't do it. If it were an OPC church it depends on if they are nice about EP convictions, or not. Some would insist not singing what is chosen along with the other members is not obeying membership vows.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (May 10, 2016)

What if there was added pressure about "non-compulsory" things?

Say they are OK with them being EP (and other parts of worship), but they want them to come to Sunday School? Or be there on Wednesday nights for "other meetings" and such.


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## NaphtaliPress (May 10, 2016)

An hour away would be a hardship for Wednesday nights I should think, and you have already noted they have these other family responsibilities. If they know that is going to be a membership requirement recognize that cost and grapple with how realistic it is now and decide accordingly rather than hoping it will work out and take the vows. Frankly if they are going to force mid week attendance I suspect they will force other issues. In the abstract not really knowing the position, I will only opine that as it has been presented this seems like a bad idea.


C. Matthew McMahon said:


> Say they are OK with them being EP (and other parts of worship), but they want them to come to Sunday School? Or be there on Wednesday nights for "other meetings" and such.


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## MW (May 10, 2016)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> I have not read every reply in this thread, so apologies if someone has already made this point, but if there is not a solid church in the area where they can be accepted as members they could try distance membership of a denomination that is willing to accept them and would only require them to attend when possible. For the rest of the time, they could attend the Baptist church.



That seems to be the only viable option from a traditional Presbyterian point of view.


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## VictorBravo (May 10, 2016)

MW said:


> Reformed Covenanter said:
> 
> 
> > I have not read every reply in this thread, so apologies if someone has already made this point, but if there is not a solid church in the area where they can be accepted as members they could try distance membership of a denomination that is willing to accept them and would only require them to attend when possible. For the rest of the time, they could attend the Baptist church.
> ...



Back to the Reformed Baptist point, as an RB myself, I'd see nothing wrong with this at all. It is viable.

I will also say that some of our smaller churches have this issue a lot. We are in a remote area and the only other "reformed" options within more than 120 miles are Doug Wilson's church or a Baxterian-influenced independent church. We have had many committed confessional Presbyterians stay with us for some time before moving out of the area.

One of our sister churches in Kirkland Washington has had a Presbyterian family for years. They are essentially members who have committed to not vote to change that church's constitution. But there was no pressure on them to change their views on government or baptism.

The pastor there said the elders of their church decided it was consistent with LBCF chapters 26 and 27. It seems to work out fine for them.


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## Scott Bushey (May 11, 2016)

As Matt says, this is a sticky wicket of sorts. On the one hand, you need membership for appropriate over sight, yet when you disagree with the number of things the particular church subscribes to, your over sight is affected. One cannot perpetually, just 'attend' a church. There is no over sight there and most churches would pull the plug on the supper if you remain there perpetually-it would be, in my opinion, their responsibility to do so. Ultimately, if the receiving congregation agrees w/ your reservations then they are making reservations for those things within the confines of their constitution. It is better one attaches themselves officially than not.


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## Andrew P.C. (May 12, 2016)

C. Matthew McMahon said:


> Southern Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> > Have they discussed with the Baptist Pastor under what terms they might join the church? If they could come to agreement that their earnestly held beliefs are not up for debate, and they would not use them to cause disruption of the local body, could they not join for the sake of oversight and fellowship with local saints?
> ...



Any word? If I may ask?


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## C. Matthew McMahon (May 12, 2016)

As far as I am aware, based on a text, it was a good meeting. Will let you know more as I find out.


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