# What does the Lord say about Hebrews 6:4-6



## andreas (Apr 14, 2004)

&lt;&lt;&lt;I would like to know what the Presbyterian says of this passage? &gt;&gt;&gt;

&lt;&lt;&lt;I would like to know what the Particular/Reformed Baptist says of this passage? &gt;&gt;&gt;

Who cares what, so and so, said about a particular passage.The question should be what does the Lord say?Man's opinions,speculations and theories matter nothing.Let the scriptures be their own interpreters.
andreas.:wr51:


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## luvroftheWord (Apr 14, 2004)

[quote:4f19d2e558]Who cares what, so and so, said about a particular passage.The question should be what does the Lord say?Man's opinions,speculations and theories matter nothing.Let the scriptures be their own interpreters.[/quote:4f19d2e558]

Ah! So in other words, forget how Baptists and Presbyterians interpret what the Lord says. How do YOU PERSONALLY interpret what the Lord says? This kind of thinking is supposed to be more spiritual and more &quot;Reformed&quot;, but I don't buy it.

But anyway, Josh, I'm sure the Baptists will give you their interpretation of this passage soon enough. I think you've done a good thing by creating two threads for two perspectives.


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## andreas (Apr 15, 2004)

&lt;&lt;&lt;Ah! So in other words, forget how Baptists and Presbyterians interpret what the Lord says. How do YOU PERSONALLY interpret what the Lord says? This kind of thinking is supposed to be more spiritual and more &quot;Reformed&quot;, but I don't buy it.&gt;&gt;&gt;

God is a spirit,John 4:24,and He has given us His spiritual riches(the Gospel),and the Holy spirit to help us in our search.John 15:26.Without the spirit ,the wisdom of the world is foolishness .1 Corr.3:19
andreas.:wr51:


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## blhowes (Apr 15, 2004)

[b:53fcf303d2]Andreas wrote:[/b:53fcf303d2]
Who cares what, so and so, said about a particular passage.The question should be what does the Lord say?

What does the Lord say about Hebrews 4:4-6?

Bob

[Edited on 4-15-2004 by blhowes]


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## andreas (Apr 17, 2004)

&lt;&lt;&lt;Read Ephesians 4 and tell me what you think it means then??? &gt;&gt;&gt;

Can you be more specific please?What does Ephesians 4 have to do with Hebrews ?
andreas.

[Edited on 4-17-2004 by andreas]


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## Dan.... (Apr 17, 2004)

[quote:3efcf88e34]
What does Ephesians 4 have to do with Hebrews ?
[/quote:3efcf88e34]

Everything!!!!

[i:3efcf88e34]
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
[/i:3efcf88e34]


God has gifted His church with these men so that His church might not be &quot;carried about with every wind of doctrine&quot;.

Today's church has rejected her teachers. The church has become individualistic (i.e., &quot;Just me and my Bible&quot. In rejecting her confessions and in neglecting to heed the instruction of those men with whom God has gifted her, the church today is being &quot;carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men.&quot;

Truth is not subjective. God is not going to reveal something to us today that has not been revealed to many of His chosen ones throughout history.

For us to say that &quot;[i:3efcf88e34]we don't need the instruction of men, we've got our Bible and we are capable enough to interpret scripture on our own[/i:3efcf88e34]&quot; is not only extremely arrogant... it's dangerous. According to Eph 4:14, it's deceptive.

Such teachings as dispensationalism wouldn't be such a problem today had the church 150 years ago lived by this rule. When some wolf-in-sheep's-clothing (such as were Darby and Scofield) comes along and says, &quot;look what God has revealed to me in the scriptures&quot;, the church should have said, &quot;show us wherein God has revealed these thing to us through His appointed teachers throughout the ages.&quot;

When a wolf like Harold Camping comes along and says, &quot;God has shown me that we are all now to depart out from the organized churches&quot;, the church should go back to her confessions, and to her teachers with whom God has gifted her and see if God has revealed such things to her teachers throughout the ages. Unfortunately, there are many today who say, &quot;I don't need the teachings of men, I can compare scripture with scripture by myself to see if these things be true.&quot; It is such as these who become entangled in the error as such wolves as Camping and his followers.

In short, Ephesians 4 has a lot to do with how we are to understand Hebrews 6, for if we neglect the teachings of those with whom God has gifted His church (which include both Baptists and paedo-Baptists), then we are going to end in subjective truth, which is not truth at all.



[Edited on 4-17-2004 by Dan....]


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## blhowes (Apr 17, 2004)

I hope Andreas will return and respond to my question. His entrance into the thread was (I think) a bit bold and he definitely caught my attention. I assume by his statements that he can help us understand how to interpret this passage. I look forward to his exegesis.

[b:ffeac4e88e]Paul wrote[/b:ffeac4e88e]
What these wolfs do is trap young Christians (check the stats! scary!! especially if you have read Kuhn or know anything about paradigm changes!!).

Where can I go to check the stats?

Bob


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## alwaysreforming (Apr 17, 2004)

*Excellent posts, Dan and Paul*

A lot of people seem to be confused where the &quot;meaning&quot; of a particular passage comes from. They tend to think it comes from the &quot;text&quot; itself, meaning: isolate the sentence, pray, and then God (the Holy Spirit) will enlighten you.

In fact, as you all know, the meaning comes from the mind of the author, ie: Paul, et al, who was penning the text at the time. What HE was wanting to say with the words he used IS THE MEANING, and the INTERPRETATION of the passage, if it is to be correct, can be none other than what was wanting to be communicated by the author.

How are we, 2000 years later, ALL going to be able to just read those words (any given passage) and then suddenly going to be able to understand the context (historically/culturally) and all that is associated with it to know exactly what was on the author's mind when writing?

Why WOULDN'T we look to those more educated, more familiar with the original languages, more familiar with the cultural implications, more advanced in Christ than ourselves, and GLEAN from their knowledge and wisdom to help us understand what we're reading???

When Philip asked the Ethiopian, &quot;Hey, that text you're reading; who is it talking about?&quot; The Ethiopian said, &quot;I don't know; help me interpret it, please!&quot;

If EVERYONE is supposed to come up with their own interpretation, and their interpretation is correct, then that means every single person will have the exact same interpretation of that text! How likely is this?

Sure, it sounds like a great argument: &quot;Let the Bible speak for itself!&quot; In reality, it collapses in on itself.


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## andreas (Apr 17, 2004)

&lt;&lt;&lt;I hope Andreas will return and respond to my question. His entrance into the thread was (I think) a bit bold and he definitely caught my attention. I assume by his statements that he can help us understand how to interpret this passage. I look forward to his exegesis. &gt;&gt;&gt;

I would not call it my exegesis,just what the spirit of the Lord tells us.The key word in Hebrews 6:4-6, is ,'tasted'.The apostle states 'they tasted'.Tasting does not include eating,much less digesting what you have eaten,and turning it to spiritual nourishment.These people had a degree of exposure,and enjoyment,much like the stony-ground hearers.They tasted only,and they could not say ,&quot;thy words were found and i did eat them&quot; Jer 15:16. Further more, there is no &quot;if&quot; in the original, which literally states &quot;and have fallen away&quot;.So these people, were not true possesors but professors.They were not born of God.
andreas.
:wr51:


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## andreas (Apr 17, 2004)

&lt;&lt;&lt;If EVERYONE is supposed to come up with their own interpretation, and their interpretation is correct, then that means every single person will have the exact same interpretation of that text! How likely is this? &gt;&gt;&gt;

&quot;Interpretations belong to God.&quot; Gen 40:8
andreas.:wr51:


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## ChristianasJourney (Apr 17, 2004)

It does seem to me that it's very important to get other people's perspective on a passage--it's what makes us think. It's what brings us together to debate some of the issues that separate the Baptist from the Presb. It is how we discover, learn, and become confident in our own beliefs so that we can give to every man an answer, who asks about the hope that is within us.

I personally am interested to know how the Baptists and Presb. may interpret a passage differently. While I don't necessarily adhere or agree with anything I read, I recognize that many here, and elsewher have an education of the Hebrew and Greek languages, as well as Biblical history that I don't have. Their comments will no doubt shed some insight that I'd otherwise not get. I look forward to reading their understanding of the scriptures.

With that said though, I think that we do have to be careful that we don't ascribe to any particular doctrinal teaching because that's what's &quot;so and so&quot; teaches. Even if the &quot;so and so&quot; is John Calvin. We have to search the scriptures for ourselves on every point, to find out what Scripture teaches. There are people I know who having accepted a few doctrinal points, accept the whole kit and caboodle simply because it's part of the doctrine. Even if it's right, by not searching Scripture for themselves they end up cheating themselves, and really, not being able to bear testimony to what they know, but rather to what they've been told.

I've also seen a danger in people distorting scripture to fit with their knowledge of their doctrine. I think we're probably all in danger of succumbing to that temptation. It's probably helpful to remember that it is scripture that established the doctrine, not the doctrine that interprets scripture.

Anyway, nobody gave me a nickle for my thoughts, but this is my :wr50::wr50: worth.


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## andreas (Apr 18, 2004)

&lt;&lt;&lt;With that said though, I think that we do have to be careful that we don't ascribe to any particular doctrinal teaching because that's what's &quot;so and so&quot; teaches. Even if the &quot;so and so&quot; is John Calvin. We have to search the scriptures for ourselves on every point, to find out what Scripture teaches&gt;&gt;&gt;

Thank you.That is the whole point.We are christians,not calvinists,etc.we are to follow Christ and nobody else.The wisdom of the word is foolishness.
1 Corr.3:19
andreas.:wr51:


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## andreas (Apr 18, 2004)

&lt;&lt;&lt;First, are you saying &quot;the Spirit of the Lord&quot; told you this??? If so, we had better bend the knee because we cannot argue with God, and you seem to be His spokesman. Really, I am not trying to be cruel but that is the absurdity of what your saying. &gt;&gt;&gt;

Yes this is what we are told,since we are dealing with people who are not saved, then they only tasted but not assimilated the word.We know that once saved always saved,for we are sealed with the spirit till the day of redemption.Nobody can open the seal except the owner ,and that is Christ ,the head of the church.An unsaved person does not digest anything.They may taste, but they have had a gastric stapling operation and can not nourish themselves.In other situations, the word taste, can be interpreted differently.

Taste and see the Lord is good Ps.34:8.

Sweet are thy words to taste Ps.119:103.

if so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.1 Peter 2:3

I am not claiming to be the Lord's spokesperson,perish the thought.Everything in the scriptures is for all of US.I never said that i was told,but WE are told.

When the spirit of truth is come,He will guide you into all truth. .John 16:13.

andreas.:wr51:


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## andreas (Apr 18, 2004)

&lt;&lt;&lt;For us to say that &quot;we don't need the instruction of men, we've got our Bible and we are capable enough to interpret scripture on our own&quot; is not only extremely arrogant... it's dangerous. According to Eph 4:14, it's deceptive. &gt;&gt;&gt;

We do not need man,we need the grace of God,to open our ears ,&quot;he wakeneth my ear to hear,&quot;Isa50:4 

and eyes ,&quot;open thou mine eyes&quot;,Ps.119:18,

&quot;their eyes were opened&quot;,Luke24:31,

for ,without the Lord we are nothing and can do nothing. John 15:5
We are to pray to God to feed us with the bread of life and give us the water of life.We should be in Christ not anyone else.Yes we do not need man ,we need Christ.
andreas.
:wr51:


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## andreas (Apr 18, 2004)

&lt;&lt;&lt;Thirdly, the verse says that &quot;they had once BEEN enlightened.&quot; Are you currently enlightened? If so, do you think your enlightened state was attained by just some meger &quot;tasting&quot; which is to say &quot;no spiritual nourishment.&quot; No, your enlightenment is the process of serious digestion. &gt;&gt;&gt;

Satan binds the mind of the unregenerate,&quot;lest the light of the gospel shine unto them&quot;,2 Cor 4:4.Enlightened here means to be instructed.The same people are said to have received the knowledge of truth, Heb.10:26.However it is only natural enlightenment and not spiritual enlightenment,the one that transforms, 2 Cor 3:18 .Remember Balaam?He was enlightened. Numbers 24:4
I can be enlightened in the arts by receiving tuition, but that does not make me an artist.
andreas. 
:wr51:


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## Dan.... (Apr 18, 2004)

[quote:401824122a]
&lt;&lt;&lt;For us to say that &quot;we don't need the instruction of men, we've got our Bible and we are capable enough to interpret scripture on our own&quot; is not only extremely arrogant... it's dangerous. According to Eph 4:14, it's deceptive. &gt;&gt;&gt; 

We do not need man,we need the grace of God,to open our ears ,&quot;he wakeneth my ear to hear,&quot;Isa50:4 

and eyes ,&quot;open thou mine eyes&quot;,Ps.119:18, 

&quot;their eyes were opened&quot;,Luke24:31, 

for ,without the Lord we are nothing and can do nothing. John 15:5 
We are to pray to God to feed us with the bread of life and give us the water of life.We should be in Christ not anyone else.Yes we do not need man ,we need Christ. 
andreas. 
:wr51:

[/quote:401824122a]

Andreas,

Are you denying that God has gifted His church with teachers (Eph 4:11), and that these teachers are given to us to be:
A. a means of our edification (Eph 4:12), 
B.a means of our unification (Eph 4:13), 
C.a means through which we are to receive knowledge of the Son of God (Eph 4:13)
D. a means to keep us from being carried about with every wind of doctrine (Eph 4:14)????

If you will deny this, then please explain Eph 4:11-14.

God works through the means that He has appointed. The teachers which He has appointed are to be a means of grace to us.

You say, &quot;[i:401824122a]We do not need man,we need the grace of God[/i:401824122a]&quot;. Yes, our salvation is dependent on the grace of God. However, God says (in Ephesians 4:11-14) that He gives us grace through the means of the teachers which He has given to His church. If what we need is the grace of God, then we need not to neglect His appointed means of grace to us.

The idea that &quot;[i:401824122a]we don't need teachers, we need Christ[/i:401824122a]&quot; is rebellious, as God has said we need teachers (Eph 4:11-14); God has said we need men to preach to us (Romans 10:14). If we neglect these men with which God has gifted His church, then we spurn the means of grace and are left wanting.



[Edited on 4-18-2004 by Dan....]


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## luvroftheWord (Apr 19, 2004)

[quote:3cb189e9f3]What epistemological basis can you give that you know for sure it was the Lord.[/quote:3cb189e9f3]

I second this inquiry. Unless you can prove infallibly that the Lord told you this, then it is just your interpretation versus the rest of us.

Also, why do you post in this message board if the opinions and ideas of men are unimportant in our understanding of truth? Should we not treat your words with the attitude, &quot;it doesn't matter what Andreas says, but what does the Lord say?&quot; But if we each have this attitude, we might as well close down this message board and all keep to ourselves.

[Edited on 4-19-2004 by luvroftheWord]


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## andreas (Apr 19, 2004)

It looks as though i burried myself deep into trouble.To clarify things,I believe on the inerancy of the word of God,and the authority of scripture over the church,rather than following the word of man. Salvation is by Christ alone (Solo Christo), Saved by God's Grace alone (Sola Gratia), through faith alone (Sola Fide), to the Glory of God alone (Soli Deo Gloria), and that Christians must hold to doctrines based upon Scripture alone (Sola Scriptura). We are to try the Spirits, search God's Word itself to see if the words of men are in agreement with what God had said. This is just as the more noble Bereans did, (Acts 17:11). They studied the scriptures honestly, not according to tradition, but to what was actually inspired by God. Yes we have teachers, but we are not to follow their teachings blindly as though they were doctrine,for the gospel is Christ's and nobody else's,and the glory is His and does not belong to some theologian.
andreas.:book:


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## blhowes (Apr 19, 2004)

[b:127f759066]Andreas wrote:[/b:127f759066]
Yes we have teachers, but we are not to follow their teachings blindly as though they were doctrine, for the gospel is Christ's and nobody else's,and the glory is His and does not belong to some theologian.

I agree. I'm just wondering something, though. What do you do when you're studying a passage and you just can't seem to understand it? Do you ever get to the point where you go and ask somebody else what they think it means? Or do you just continue reading and praying and wait until God gives you the answers you're looking for?

I don't know you, but I'd guess that you would ask somebody, think about what they said, compare it with your understanding of the rest of the scriptures, and then accept or reject it accordingly. I think (my impression) that's the attitude that most on this board have towards Calvin, Owen, etc., or whatever theologian they're appealing to. I don't think they accept their teachings blindly, but have studied the teachings and compared the teachings with the scriptures (again, my impression). You'd probably be surprised at what responses you'd get if you started a thread called &quot;Here's where I disagree with what Calvin (or whatever theologian) wrote&quot;. You would probably find posts from Presbyterians who disagreed with Calvin in certain areas and Baptists who disagreed with Owen in certain areas. There might not be a lot of disagreement, but I'd bet there'd be some. 

Bob


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## Optimus (Apr 19, 2004)

[quote:49c5e16157]
rather than following the word of man
[/quote:49c5e16157]

Andres,

i do not think anyone here disagrees with that. We all hold to sola scriptura.


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## andreas (Apr 19, 2004)

Do you not get upset that people called themselves Calvinists?The doctrine is not Calvin's.It belongs to God.We are christians,the body of Christ.Often you hear someone say,Ah ,but Berkohf said this and Spurgeon thought that.This is my whole argument.The glory belongs to God and not some theologian,for if God had not quickened them they would be blind.
&quot;For it is God who commanded the light to shine out of the darkness who has shoned in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor.4:6

andreas.:book:


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## andreas (Apr 19, 2004)

&lt;&lt;&lt;I agree. I'm just wondering something, though. What do you do when you're studying a passage and you just can't seem to understand it? Do you ever get to the point where you go and ask somebody else what they think it means? Or do you just continue reading and praying and wait until God gives you the answers you're looking for? &gt;&gt;&gt;

&quot;Which things also we speak,not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth,but which the holy spirit teacheth,comparing spiritual things with spiritual.&quot; 1Cor.2:13
I continue reading and wait till God gives me the answer.

andreas:wr51:


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## andreas (Apr 20, 2004)

&lt;&lt;&lt;have you ever thought God gave you an answer then later changed your view on it? 

how can you be sure God is giving you the answer. 

so, on all the doctrine that you believe God gave you if I disagree does that mean I disagree with God? &gt;&gt;&gt;


The supreme and ultimate authority is the word of God.What authority can be higher?None.

&quot;All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine.for reproof,for correction,for instruction in righteousness&quot;. 2 Timothy 3:16.

It was given to all of us,and please, do not ask this time who the &quot;us&quot; refers to.

&quot;But the natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit of God for they are foolishness unto him,neither can he know them for they are spiritually discerned.&quot;1 Cor.2:14

We need the Holy spirit to see ,for without it, the scriptures are foolishness,and the spirit of the Lord will help in our search.You seem to have a problem accepting that scripture interprets scripture .How can one be sure that he has the right answer?

&quot;And you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free&quot; John 8:32

&quot;Then opened he their understanding,that they may understand the scriptures.&quot; Luke 24:45

The scriptures are for all of us,

&quot;That we may be perfect throughly furnished unto all good works.2 Tim.3:17

andreas.

:wr51:


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## blhowes (Apr 20, 2004)

[b:1234188fcd]Andreas wrote:[/b:1234188fcd]
I continue reading and wait till God gives me the answer. 

That &quot;wait&quot; is time well spent, for sure. 

Am I right to assume that, since God gave the church teachers (Ephesians 4, etc), that you agree that teachers serve an important function in the church? Their function is important, but their attitude should be the same as John the Baptist's (John 3:30).

Are you a teacher in your church? If so, do you encourage your students to ask you questions if they don't understand something (in addition to encouraging them to dig into the scriptures for themselves)?

Bob


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## kceaster (Apr 20, 2004)

*Andreas....*

[quote:65b5b8d1f8]The supreme and ultimate authority is the word of God. What authority can be higher? None.[/quote:65b5b8d1f8]

This is partly right. You are correct when you say that there is no higher authority, but when you claim that He will illumine you to a truth (after you wait upon Him) and that truth is divergent from the truth claims of other godly men, then who is it that determines whether your truth claim is, indeed, true. You do. In your own terms, that is what you have said.

So when you claim that the Word of God is supreme authority, you are really placing yourself above it when you claim to use only the Scriptures to interpret the truth.

What you say that is different than the majority of other Christians is your opinion. But you cannot say that God, through His Spirit, has illumined you to a truth no one else knows.

Secondly, the Word is the supreme authority, but what makes it supreme? The fact that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all testify to it. The Spirit is the crucial person in our understanding of Scripture. He must illumine us, or we don't understand.

Now, will the Spirit say one thing to us, but something completely different to another? Can both these understandings be true? Can the Holy Spirit use you to help someone understand? Yes. Can He use me? I certainly pray to that end. Did He use Calvin? Does He continue to use Calvin?

My point to all these questions is to get you to see that the Holy Spirit bears witness not only with our own spirits, but also with the spirits of others. In fact, we are to test these spirits to see whether they are from God. Now, Calvin and the magisterial Reformers have been well tested, and approved, not on everything they ever said or wrote, for they were fallible men. But, they did and still do continue to aid the Spirit in illuminating the minds of men.

When I say I am a Calvinist, I am merely saying that I agree with the truths John Calvin articulated. I don't have a shrine. I don't carry a picture of him in my wallet. I admire him for his stand in the faith, but beyond that, he was just a man like me.

I know what you are arguing against, and there are those who tend to go overboard in their following of a man or his teachings. But I assure you, if there is any group that can hold men of the faith in esteem, yet not go overboard, it is the Reformed faith. Why? Because their teaching was not heretical. If anyone understands what the Reformation taught, he is protected from being like followers of Jim Jones or David Koresh. If we understand what the Reformation taught, we are pointed back to the Bible instead of tradition, we have a fervor for the kingdom of God that inherently grows up each one in the faith. If we understand what the Reformation taught, we bear witness to the truth of the Scriptures in almost all, if not all, areas of theology.

I don't know about you, but I need all the help I can get. I place my faith in Christ and I read His Word. But I do not trust my interpretation alone. I have a desperately wicked heart that only works deceit. Therefore, I must allow the Holy Spirit to illumine me through His illumination of others. This is the very reason we have the Scriptures. God shares with us and gives us the great gift of learning what He has taught others. There is nothing wrong with that. In fact, to speak against it, speaks against Christ's mandate to make disciples, teaching them to observe all that He has commanded.

We desperately need teachers and preachers of the gospel. Why? Because it is God's design that we be a part of a whole, not individuals trying to make their own way. He wants us to agree, not part ways because we are too proud to see that we are wrong.

We need orthodoxy. We need the voices of the past to speak to us. We need them to teach us. If we would not listen, then we are not waiting on God. We are ignoring a clarion call to listen and learn from our teachers in the faith. The Spirit has built all of good theology up into a place of illumination. Yes, we are to read for ourselves. Yes, we are to study the Scriptures and know them. But we are not to do this apart from how the Spirit is going to teach us.

And the Spirit uses men from all ages. To ignore them, is to ignore what He wants to teach us by their witness.

In Christ,

KC


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## andreas (Apr 21, 2004)

&quot;John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
He must increase, but I must decrease.
He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all&quot;. John 3:27-31

This is it .All glory is given to the Lord our God.This is the teacher i will follow to the ends of the earth.
andreas.
:wr51:


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## kceaster (Apr 21, 2004)

*Andreas....*

[quote:1a9649e44d][i:1a9649e44d]Originally posted by andreas[/i:1a9649e44d]
&quot;John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
He must increase, but I must decrease.
He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all&quot;. John 3:27-31

This is it .All glory is given to the Lord our God.This is the teacher i will follow to the ends of the earth.
andreas.
:wr51: [/quote:1a9649e44d]

Then you may very well be ignoring what the Spirit would impart to you through the means God has provided - discipleship.

In Christ,

KC


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## andreas (Apr 21, 2004)

&lt;&lt;&lt;Then you may very well be ignoring what the Spirit would impart to you through the means God has provided - discipleship. 

I am not denying the means the Lord has appointed for us,but i am objecting to the glory being given to a teacher or a disciple instead where it belongs.We are here to glorify God.If an unbeliever hears a believer say that he is a Calvinist ,he would naturally assume that the doctrine is Calvin's when this is not the case,and falsely glorify the man.

&quot;The disciple is not above his master,nor the servant above his lord &quot;.Matthew 10:24
:book:


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## kceaster (Apr 22, 2004)

*Andreas...*

[quote:199f31fdc5][i:199f31fdc5]Originally posted by andreas[/i:199f31fdc5]
&lt;&lt;&lt;Then you may very well be ignoring what the Spirit would impart to you through the means God has provided - discipleship. 

I am not denying the means the Lord has appointed for us,but i am objecting to the glory being given to a teacher or a disciple instead where it belongs.We are here to glorify God.If an unbeliever hears a believer say that he is a Calvinist ,he would naturally assume that the doctrine is Calvin's when this is not the case,and falsely glorify the man.

&quot;The disciple is not above his master,nor the servant above his lord &quot;.Matthew 10:24
:book: [/quote:199f31fdc5]

You are judging me falsely if you believe I am placing a man over the Scriptures. I give glory to God for all those He has illumined in the past and I thank Him for all the brothers and sisters I have.

What you are complaining of is an apologetic argument that someone will be mislead if I mention that I am a Calvinist. By virtue of what a Calvinist believes, I would have to say that my giving myself a label does no damage at all to what God is or is not going to do in the life of a person.

You're right. A natural man would come to the wrong conclusion, they always do, and there is nothing whatsoever I can do about that. However, if the Spirit is regenerating them, although they may stumble at the beginning, God will reveal to them all His holy Word and they will become indoctrinated.

Doctrine is not a bad thing for a disciple. It is needful. If you object to this, I cannot help that. It is the way God intended.

In Christ,

KC


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## andreas (Apr 23, 2004)

&lt;&lt;&lt;You are judging me falsely if you believe I am placing a man over the Scriptures.&gt;&gt;&gt;
I am not judging you brother,perish the thought.I simply do not like christians having other labels,than that of a christian.We are followers of Christ ,His body,and He is the head over all things.
&quot;I the Lord thy God I am a jealous God.&quot; Ex.20:5

&quot;Will be jealous for my holy name.&quot; Ez.39:25

Calvin like all of us was an unprofitable servant.

&quot;We are all unprofitable servants&quot;. Luke17:10
andreas.
:book:


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