# Federal Vision?



## Sovereign Grace (Jul 23, 2020)

I was not for sure were exactly to place this, so if it is in the wrong place, please move it.

I've read up on this some, but still remain (mostly) in the fog. What exactly is the bugaboo in regards to this? Please further explain FV to me. Thanks in advance.


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## Stephen L Smith (Jul 23, 2020)

convicted1 said:


> it is in the wrong place, please move it.


Moved to Federal vision forum

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sovereign Grace (Jul 23, 2020)

Thanks for moving this to the appropriate forum.


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## Sovereign Grace (Jul 23, 2020)

Stephen L Smith said:


> Moved to Federal vision forum



Thanks again Brother.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Regi Addictissimus (Jul 23, 2020)

These will get you started:



https://www.opc.org/nh.html?article_id=478





https://rscottclark.org/rscottclark/documents/urcnajustificationrepfinaljune09.pdf











The Federal Vision and Covenant Theology: A Comparative Analysis (Waters)


Puritan and Reformed books at discounted prices.




www.heritagebooks.org





There have been plenty of threads on this topic.

Federal Vision site:www.puritanboard.com


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## W.C. Dean (Jul 23, 2020)

Federal vision is a blanket term used to describe a range of beliefs. There are more extreme versions of it, but it all has to do with a view of the visible church and God's covenants. The most easily identifiable outworking of their theology is paedocommunion, or allowing any baptized child who can eat to come to the Lord's supper. After looking at the resources recommended, I would recommend listening to Douglas Wilson discuss his views with Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. It is on YouTube.


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## RamistThomist (Jul 23, 2020)

In by grace (baptism), stay in by good deeds

Reactions: Like 1


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## Edward (Jul 23, 2020)

convicted1 said:


> What exactly is the bugaboo in regards to this?



The primary debate with regard to Federal Vision is whether it is heresy or merely grave error. 

Here are links to the PCA's work on the subject:



https://pcahistory.org/pca/digest/studies/FV-509-522.pdf





https://pcahistory.org/pca/digest/studies/FV-523-554.pdf





https://pcahistory.org/pca/digest/studies/FV-555-568.pdf

Reactions: Like 1


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## Stephen L Smith (Jul 23, 2020)

Regi Addictissimus said:


> Federal Vision site:www.puritanboard.com


Did you mean https://www.puritanboard.com/forums/federal-vision-new-perspectives.77/ ?

Reactions: Edifying 1


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## W.C. Dean (Jul 23, 2020)

See the subforum above, and also this thread may be helpful






Calvinist International, FV, and Doug Wilson


Steven Wedgeworth at The Calvinist International has just completed a six-part in-depth historical study on the theological trajectories of FV and its various adherents, including and especially focusing upon Doug Wilson. It is well worth reading - I found his analysis of Doug Wilson to be...




www.puritanboard.com

Reactions: Like 1


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## greenbaggins (Jul 23, 2020)

The FV is a "new" (actually there are precursors in certain theologians well before the first Auburn Avenue Conference) way of looking at the covenant. They flatten out the distinction between the covenant of grace and the covenant of works. The believe that baptism unites a person to Christ. This union is potentially losable. If you want a one sentence summary, I would say it is basically Roman Catholic baptismal theology with a thin veneer of reinterpreted Reformed terms spread out over the top of it.

Reactions: Like 3


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## retroGRAD3 (Jul 23, 2020)

BayouHuguenot said:


> In by grace (baptism), stay in by good deeds


Sounds like Rome without the rest of the sacerdotalism

Reactions: Like 1 | Wow 1


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## LadyCalvinist (Jul 24, 2020)

Do they believe in baptismal regeneration? Do they believe that your can lose your salvation?


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## RamistThomist (Jul 24, 2020)

LadyCalvinist said:


> Do they believe in baptismal regeneration? Do they believe that your can lose your salvation?



When Rome says baptismal regeneration, they mean that baptism erases the stain (macula) of original sin. Federal Vision probably has no clue what that means. I'm not sure what they mean by it. They like to use broad terms about being incorporated into Christ and all, but when you press them on it it is a different point

Practically, yes they believe you can lose yuor salvation. They'll deny that, but they are more excited talking about apostasy than perseverance.

Reactions: Like 1 | Edifying 1


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## Sovereign Grace (Jul 24, 2020)

Thanks to all who offered up much meat to chew on. I shall avail myself of the articles posted. Thanks again.


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## W.C. Dean (Jul 24, 2020)

LadyCalvinist said:


> Do they believe in baptismal regeneration? Do they believe that your can lose your salvation?


I've listened to Doug Wilson explain his views multiple times and from what I've gathered he believes baptism truly links you to the body of Christ by linking you to the visible church (the fig tree in his view) but non-elect baptized can and will fully fall away (the branches snapped off the tree) and hence you can, in his view, apostate from the body of Christ. I have not ever heard or read anything from him where he states you can fall away from saving faith. Obviously, however, his views are not universal for everyone involved in the movement, and some certainly lean toward Lutheran or even more Roman views.


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## SeanPatrickCornell (Jul 24, 2020)

LadyCalvinist said:


> Do they believe in baptismal regeneration? Do they believe that your can lose your salvation?



One Federal Vision proponent I know would answer those questions like this:
"What do you mean by regeneration?"
"What do you mean by salvation?"

Reactions: Like 1


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## RamistThomist (Jul 24, 2020)

The gospel = you are temporarily united to Christ because you are temporarily elect but you better watch out because you can lose this union with Christ.

Reactions: Like 1


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## arapahoepark (Jul 24, 2020)

Many are enamored with Wright's view of justification. That's how they can argue one is saved by baptism initially but, stays in by good works.


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## jwright82 (Jul 25, 2020)

They believe in the objectivity of the covenant. So if someone is baptized and and a member of the visisible church than they are in "some murky" sense United to Christ .


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