# Predestination: Double or Single?



## thistle93 (Apr 17, 2012)

Hi! I believe that predestination is always to salvation (single) and never to damnation. That God is active in electing some to salvation by regenerating them and passively passes over others and allows them to perish according to their own free will (which will never choose God). To one mercy is shown and another is shown justice. So that all those who end up in heaven can only give credit to God and all who end up in hell can only blame themselves not God. I know there is a differing of interpretations in this area but would this view be in the majority or minority or reformed thought today (especially those such as Piper, Sproul, MacArthur, ect...) and is this different compared to what was historically the view of the reformation and puritans. It seems that those who are not antiquated with reformed theology automatically assume that all calvinists believe in double predestination and then want to tell you that therefore you believe that it is God who actively send people to hell, when in actuality I believe it is the fallen nature of the sinner that is spiritually dead that is responsible for their fate. Thoughts? 

For His Glory-
Matthew


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## bug (Apr 17, 2012)

Yes I suspect this more or less the understanding of most monergists. The 'chose' of not saving is a consequence of the proactive decision of God to save some. I qualify my comment like that because I don't think I would not include either Piper or McArthur as genuinely 'reformed'


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## Jake (Apr 17, 2012)

Double predestination in some respect is a common view. Here's a part of the chapter of Jerome Zanchius' great treatisie on the Doctrine of Absolute Predestination, which is more or less Reformation era literature.



> POSITION 3. -The non-elect were predestinated, not only to continue in final impenitency, sin and unbelief, but were likewise, for such their sins, righteously appointed to infernal death hereafter.
> 
> This position is also self-evident for it is certain that in the day of universal judgment all the human race will not be admitted into glory, but some of them transmitted to the place of torment. Now, God does and will do nothing but in consequence of His own decree (Psalm cxxxv. 6; Isa. xlvi. 11; Eph. i. 9, 11); therefore the condemnation of the unrighteous was decreed of God, and if decreed by Him, decreed from everlasting, for all His decrees are eternal. Besides, if God purposed to leave those persons under the guilt and the power of sin, their condemnation must of itself necessarily follow, since without justification and sanctification (neither of which blessings are in the power of man) none can enter heaven (John xiii. 8; Heb. xii. 14). Therefore, if God determined within Himself thus to leave some in their sins (and it is but too evident that this is really the case), He must also have determined within Himself to punish them for those sins (final guilt and final punishment being correlatives which necessarily infer each other), but God did determine both to leave and to punish the non-elect, therefore there was a reprobation of some from eternity. Thus, "Go, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. xxv.); for Satan and all his messengers, emissaries and imitators, whether apostate spirits or apostate men.
> 
> Now, if penal fire was, in decree from everlasting, prepared for them, they, by all the laws of argument in the world, must have been in the counsel of God prepared, i.e., designed for that fire, which is the point I undertook to prove. Hence we read "of vessels of wrath fitted to destruction, put together, made up, formed or fashioned, for perdition" (Rom. ix.), who are and can be no other than the reprobate. To multiply Scriptures on this head would be almost endless; for a sample, consult Prov. xvi. 4; 1 Peter ii. 8; 2 Peter ii. 12; Jude 4; Rev. xiii. 8.



Also, for some of the popular Calvinistic preachers, Piper has often joked that there are 7 points of Calvinism, which he believes, the 6th being double predestination.


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## Don Kistler (Apr 17, 2012)

The late John Gerstner was asked about this during a Q & A, and his response was "It's double or nothing." He went on to explain that by NOT predestining someone to salvation He was in fact predestining them to damnation. I believe John Bunyan wrote a treatise on double predestination that's available in his 3 volume "works."

It was far more accepted during the days of the Puritans than it is today.


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## KMK (Apr 17, 2012)

Here is Sproul on the subject: "Double" Predestination by R.C. Sproul

The word 'double' is probably not the best word to describe the Reformed view. It implies there is a symmetry between the divine activity in both election and reprobation. The Reformed deny a strict parallelism.


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## Constantlyreforming (Apr 17, 2012)

KMK said:


> Here is Sproul on the subject: "Double" Predestination by R.C. Sproul
> 
> The word 'double' is probably not the best word to describe the Reformed view. *It implies there is a symmetry between the divine activity in both election and reprobation*. The Reformed deny a strict parallelism.



THis would have been what I would have addressed as well. God is not active in regards to the damning of the individual as he is in the saving of the individual. One he leaves to his own desires. The other, He regenerates to save.

Man does a good job on his own running to hell.


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## Contra_Mundum (Apr 17, 2012)

It's already been sufficiently stated above, but I will just echo them.

Terminology is the main issue. On one hand, it might not be incorrect to use the term "predestination" for both the elect and the reprobate; provided it not be controversial to subsume under that one term the asymmetrical nature of the divine activity. Zanchi should not be accused of misusing the term "predestination," if at the time he used it there was no controversy; or the controversy was such that men were more generally opposed to the exercise of divine prerogatives in any case.

On the other hand, by means of refinement and a discriminating use of Scripture's own terms, it does help to use different language with respect to the "end state" (destiny) of all both classes of men. If election is prior to all human existence (before the world began, Eph.1:4), then the end-state of everyone is fixed and certain, by a necessary implication.

The term "predestination" has contained the notion of active _purpose_ or _intent_. There is embedded the thought of God's taking some from the whole, undifferentiated and possessing a common natural end, and putting these chosen to an otherwise unattainable (or at least uncertain) end. This is the way the Bible uses the term, as far as I can tell exclusively.

The asymmetric relation within divine foreordination of election to reprobation is plain; inasmuch as the "common end" is left in the way of nature for those who are not actively predestined. The destiny of the wicked is therefore _confirmed_ by the divine will (not by "bare permission," as the Confession affirms).


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## A5pointer (Apr 17, 2012)

"vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" by the potter. Do we need to differentiate? Looks like double to me.


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## Loopie (Apr 18, 2012)

But keep in mind that the Bible NEVER uses the term 'predestined' in reference to the Reprobate. It is always used in reference to the Elect. The term 'double predestination' is misleading because it makes it seem as if mankind is created morally 'neutral', and then God arbitrarily picks some to be reprobate and some to be elect. I don't think this is an accurate presentation of what the Bible teaches. Man is naturally a rebel against God. Man condemns himself without God having to do anything at all. Yet God must act (replace the heart of stone with a heart of flesh) in order for man to be made regenerate. 

There is no doubt that God has prepared certain vessels as vessels of wrath, but this is not the same as double predestination. I think it may be more accurate to say that God has decreed all things, including who will remain Reprobate, but the term 'predestined' in scripture only ever refers to the Elect.


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## ClayPot (Apr 18, 2012)

Lots of talk over definitions. I think your main objection over the term "double predestination" is simply your understanding of the word predestination. You are using the word predestination as equivalent to election, God sovereignly and effectually choosing to bring someone to salvation through his Son. Historically, this doesn't seem to have been the usage.

Specifically, predestination is God's foreordination of something.

Within predestination, there is election, God sovereignly and effectually choosing to bring someone to salvation by regenerating them to repentance and faith inhis Son.

Analogously, there is God's predestination of the reprobate, where he chooses to NOT bring them to salvation and guarantees that they will receive eternal death. God does not actively work in their lives to do this, but simply allows them to remain in their unregenerate state in which they will certainly reject Him and seal their eternal fate.

You might want to read Louis Berkohf's section on Predestination in his sysematic theology, which would be helping in clarifying things I think.


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## Jeff Burns (Apr 18, 2012)

Not not choose one item is a choice. If I pass over a red delicious apple for a gala (which I do, every single time), I've made a choice to not choose the red delicious. I know, it's a crude illustration and even the best break down at some point. But it seems so obvious to me that predestination HAS to be double. I agree with what's already been stated that it's not a 1 to 1 correlation though. His predestining of the elect to salvation is not the mirror opposite of His predestining the reprobate to damnation. Though this does not in any way diminish the reality of either choice.


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## brandonadams (Apr 18, 2012)

Some books I have found helpful (defending "double" predestination):

The Grand Demonstration - Jay Adams
Predestination - Gordon Clark
God & Evil: The Problem Solved - Gordon Clark
The Sovereignty of God - A.W. Pink (full, unedited version)


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## JM (Apr 18, 2012)

A few more links worth reading:

The Doctrine of Absolute Predestination
THE ABSOLUTE PREDESTINATION OF ALL THINGS

Predestination from Genesis to Revelation by James Poole


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## NB3K (Apr 18, 2012)

It's double or nothing. John Piper double, RC Sproul double, the giants of the so-called reformed faith have always held to a double predestination. That is the apostle Paul, Augustine, Gotteschalk, even Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, Edwards, C. Hodge, Pink, Berkhof and the list could go on.

So why is it double? Alot of folks that I have talked to say, "If it is double, than God is the author of sin!". But if it is only a single decree to life, then what of the wicked, one may ask, what did God decree for them? To answer that question one needs only look to the incomprehensible justice of God! God has assigned them to be the tool that magnifies God's glourious grace that has been poured out to us that are in Christ Jesus. The problem is we are too wicked to see and properly praise God without that awful judgment that awaits the world.

Even the wicked are made to serve God in some sort of way. They are made to be examples of the wrath of God so we can see His grace in it's proper place.

Just think about this, on that judgment day you will know beyond the shadow of a doubt who you are when you see other sinners dragged into that eternal fire and you will far exceed praising God than the angels that stand before him right now. They (Angels) will not know what Redemption is! Only God's elect will know.


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## Loopie (Apr 19, 2012)

It certainly does come down to definitions. Consider Calvin's words:

"By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man." (Institutes, Book Third, Chapter 21)

Based on THIS definition of predestination I would whole-heartedly believe in 'double predestination'. Of course, you wouldn't HAVE to use the term 'double', because the definition of predestination as depicted from Calvin refers to both the Elect and Reprobate. He is using the term 'predestination' in the broadest sense, applying it to ALL men. 

Of course, this does not deal with the issue that the term 'predestination' in scripture ONLY is used in reference to the Elect. Ultimately I believe that ALL men are 'predestined' in one sense of the term, but only the Elect are 'predestined' in another sense of the term. It certainly does depend on your definition of 'predestined'.

For this reason I would say that the term 'double predestination' should be avoided for simplicity sake. If you are referring to a definition very similar to Calvin's, you don't need to add the word 'double', because the word 'predestination' already refers to God's decree concerning both the Elect and Reprobate. Personally I would try to keep things simple. I try to use the term 'predestined' in reference to the Elect, and have no problem using the phrase 'passed over' in reference to the Reprobate. Regardless, I will always affirm that God has decreed what will happen regarding all men, both Elect and Reprobate.


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## Pilgrim Standard (Apr 19, 2012)

thistle93 said:


> To one mercy is shown and another is shown justice.


*I believe to both Justice is shown. *What matters is who is the representative in the Covenant.
For the Elect it is Christ by whom the elect are united and Represented by.
For the reprobate, it is self representation by their own wills, in the Covenant of Works.

Justice is shown to both parties. It is a true & just pronouncement on both, in such a way that mercy does not superceed nor is it subordinate to Perfect Justice.

They are both shown Perfect Justice.


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## Loopie (Apr 19, 2012)

They are also both shown mercy in the sense that God displays patience, withholding his wrath from the Reprobate. God restrains the evil of wicked men, and would be perfectly justified in bringing his wrath and judgment upon the world right now. The fact that he bears such patience is indeed a testimony to the mercy he shows the Reprobate. I would agree that God displays his justice and mercy to BOTH the Elect and Reprobate. Of course, justice and mercy is displayed differently in both groups.


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## Constantlyreforming (Apr 19, 2012)

what we must distinguish between is how God is active in one and "somewhat" passive in another.

God is active in predestining to salvation, as man is incapable of saving himself.

the predestination/reprobation issue has mankind doing a good job on his own of sending himself to hell. No harm is done to the will of the sinner running to hell.


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## NB3K (Apr 19, 2012)

Well it seems why the Israelites according to the flesh did not believe was because the Lord had not given them eyes to see, ears to hear, and a heart to understand. And Paul in the 11th chapter of Romans says it was God that gave them a spirit of stupor. 

I know it is a fact that the majority of Reformed theologains hold to God acting in a positive manner in saving the elect, but when it comes to the flip side they have always claimed God to not act in a positive way to keep the reprobate from believing. But what is Job talking about when he says that the wicked are "reserved" for the day of wrath, and they shall be led forth on the day of fury. And in Proverbs 16:4 and many other places which speak of the ways of men come from the Lord as in the preparations of their hearts? Then you have Joshua 11:20 which should all make us tremble with fear, because God had devoted men, women, and children for destruction and not to receive any mercy but to be destroyed. But that was not it, God harden their heart for that purpose.

I believe since everyman is wicked in the eyes of God and unclean deserving the wrath of God for their sins, and noit just for their sins ,but for the ingratitude that they hold against God, God can do whatever he pleases with anyone he wants and can NEVER BE QUESTIONED ABOUT IT. It goes back to where Paul went "Oh man, who do you think you are to talk back against God's decrees"!


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## KMK (Apr 19, 2012)

NB3K said:


> I know it is a fact that the majority of Reformed theologains hold to God acting in a positive manner in saving the elect, but when it comes to the flip side they have always claimed God to not act in a positive way to keep the reprobate from believing. But what is Job talking about when he says that the wicked are "reserved" for the day of wrath, and they shall be led forth on the day of fury.



We know from many other places in the Bible that God does not need to work in a positive way to 'keep the reprobate from believing'. Man is unable to believe without a positive act on God's part. By being passive God is essentially 'reserving' the wicked for the day of wrath. They are 'reserved', 'devoted', 'prepared' for wrath.

For example, I can 'reserve', 'devote', 'prepare' my house plant for death by NOT watering it. I ordained it do die by not acting in a positive way toward it. It has no ability to water itself and therefore its death is certain.


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## NB3K (Apr 19, 2012)

Ok I can dig your answer to not watering a plant and ordaining to let it die by the use of negative force. But that doesn't answer many passages of Scripture like this:



> Isa 10:12 When the Lord has finished all his work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, he will punish the speech of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the boastful look in his eyes.
> Isa 10:13 For he says: "By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom, for I have understanding; I remove the boundaries of peoples, and plunder their treasures; like a bull I bring down those who sit on thrones.
> Isa 10:14 My hand has found like a nest the wealth of the peoples; and as one gathers eggs that have been forsaken, so I have gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved a wing or opened the mouth or chirped."
> Isa 10:15 Shall the axe boast over him who hews with it, or the saw magnify itself against him who wields it? As if a rod should wield him who lifts it, or as if a staff should lift him who is not wood!
> Isa 10:16 Therefore the Lord GOD of hosts will send wasting sickness among his stout warriors, and under his glory a burning will be kindled, like the burning of fire.



And then there's Augustine:

Now I have a full awarness that Augustine is not the doctrinal standard on the PuritanBoard, neither do I contend against the WCF. I just want to show that I am not alone in what I believe. This is also Calvin's belief too. I could of quoted Calvin, but Calvin simply quotes Augustine. 




> Chapter 42 [XXI]—God Does Whatsoever He Wills in the Hearts of Even Wicked Men.
> 
> Who can help trembling at those judgments of God by which He does in the hearts of even wicked men whatsoever He wills, at the same time rendering to them according to their deeds? Rehoboam, the son of Solomon, rejected the salutary counsel of the old men, not to deal harshly with the people, and preferred listening to the words of the young men of his own age, by returning a rough answer to those to whom he should have spoken gently. Now whence arose such conduct, except from his own will? Upon this, however, the ten tribes of Israel revolted from him, and chose for themselves another king, even Jeroboam, that the will of God in His anger might be accomplished which He had predicted would come to pass.3197 For what says the Scripture? “The king hearkened not unto the people; for the turning was from the Lord, that He might perform His saying, which the Lord spake to Ahijah the Shilonite concerning Jeroboam the son of Nebat.”3198 All this, indeed, was done by the will of man, although the turning was from the Lord. Read the books of the Chronicles, and you will find the following passage in the second book: “Moreover, the Lord stirred up against Jehoram the spirit of the Philistines, and of the Arabians, that were neighbours to the Ethiopians; and they came up to the land of Judah, and ravaged it, and carried away all the substance which was found in the king’s house.”3199 Here it is shown that God stirs up enemies to devastate the countries which He adjudges deserving of such chastisement. Still, did these Philistines and Arabians invade the land of Judah to waste it with no will of their own? Or were their movements so directed by their own will that the Scripture lies which tells us that “the Lord stirred up their spirit” to do all this? Both statements to be sure are true, because they both came by their own will, and yet the Lord stirred up their spirit; and this may also with equal truth be stated the other way: The Lord both stirred up their spirit, and yet they came of their own will. For the Almighty sets in motion even in the innermost hearts of men the movement of their will, so that He does through their agency whatsoever He wishes to perform through them,—even He who knows not how to will anything in unrighteousness. What, again, is the purport of that which the man of God said to King Amaziah: “Let not the army of Israel go with thee; for the Lord is not with Israel, even with all the children of Ephraim: for if thou shalt think to obtain with these, the Lord shall put thee to flight before thine enemies: for God hath power either to strengthen or to put to flight”?3200 Now, how does the power of God help some in war by giving them confidence, and put others to flight by injecting fear into them, except it be that He who has made all things according to His own will, in heaven and on earth,3201 also works in the hearts of men? We read also what Joash, king of Israel, said when he sent a message to Amaziah, king of Judah, who wanted to fight with him. After certain other words, he added, “Now tarry at home; why dost thou challenge me to thine hurt, that thou shouldest fall, even thou, and Judah with thee?”3202 Then the Scripture has added this sequel: “But Amaziah would not hear; for it came of God, that he might be delivered into their hands, because they sought after the gods of Edom.”3203 Behold, now, how God, wishing to punish the sin of idolatry, wrought this in this man’s heart, with whom He was indeed justly angry, not to listen to sound advice, but to despise it, and go to the battle, in which he with his army was routed. God says by the prophet Ezekiel, “If the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet: I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.” 3204 Then there is the book of Esther, who was a woman of the people of Israel, and in the land of their captivity became the wife of the foreign King Ahasuerus. In this book it is written, that, being driven by necessity to interpose in behalf of her people, whom the king had ordered to be slain in every part of his dominions, she prayed to the Lord. So strongly was she urged by the necessity of the case, that she even ventured into the royal presence with463out the king’s command, and contrary to her own custom. Now observe what the Scripture says: “He looked at her like a bull in the vehemence of his indignation; and the queen was afraid, and her colour changed as she fainted; and she bowed herself upon the head of her delicate maiden which went before her. But God turned the king, and transformed his indignation into gentleness.”3205 The Scripture says in the Proverbs of Solomon, “Even as the rush of water, so is the heart of a king in God’s hand; He will turn it in whatever way He shall choose.”3206 Again, in the 104th Psalm, in reference to the Egyptians, one reads what God did to them: “And He turned their heart to hate His people, to deal subtilly with His servants.”3207 Observe, likewise, what is written in the letters of the apostles. In the Epistle of Paul, the Apostle, to the Romans occur these words: “Wherefore God gave them up to uncleanness, through the lusts of their own hearts;”3208 and a little afterwards: “For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections;”3209 again, in the next passage: “And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient.”3210 So also in his second Epistle to the Thessalonians, the apostle says of sundry persons, “Inasmuch as they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved; therefore also God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie; that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”3211
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## KMK (Apr 20, 2012)

NB3K said:


> neither do I contend against the WCF.





> WCF 3:VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, *to pass by; and to ordain them* to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.



If you disagree that God ordains the reprobate to dishonor by passing them over then you do contend with the WCF. The statement of the WCF is the answer to your confusion over seemingly contradictory passages like Matt 11:25: At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 

In addition, God acts passively in reprobation but not in judgment. 



> WCF 33:II. The end of God's appointing this day is for the manifestation of the glory of His mercy, in the eternal salvation of the elect; and of His justice, in the damnation of the reprobate, who are wicked and disobedient. For then shall the righteous go into everlasting life, and receive that fulness of joy and refreshing, which shall come from the presence of the Lord; but the wicked who know not God, and obey not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, *shall be cast into eternal torments, and be punished with everlasting destruction* from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.



The Isa 10 passage is more about God's Judgment than His Reprobation.


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## Constantlyreforming (Apr 20, 2012)

I guess in a sense God actively ensured the reprobates damnation by decreeing the fall into sin....and the effect it would have on all Adam's descendants. There is the example of the hardening of the heart. What I do not see is mankind desperately wanting Christ, and God saying no. The yearn for Christ is wrought in the believer through regeneration, which is only given to the elect.

I would agree. God is passive in Reprobation, but active in judgment.


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## Sviata Nich (Apr 20, 2012)

For clarification. Double Predestination is...

God chooses some depraved sinners to be redeemed (He bares their judgment). 
And
God chooses (not to choose) some depraved sinners not to be redeemed (they will bare His judgment themselves). 

So for the reprobate, God doesn't create man, chooses him to fall, and then chooses him to damnation.
Rather, God creates man, man falls, and then God's chooses fallen man to damnation. 

All is ordained before the creation of the world though. Correct?


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## dudley (Apr 20, 2012)

I may be not totally correct. I am still new to reformed theology and working hard to understand Predestination. I believe the truth is it is GOD who elects, not the sinner. God is sovereign in all things. "All things" includes the salvation of sinners. 
The Bible couldn't be more clear: 
"HE CHOSE US in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption...ACCORDING TO THE GOOD PLEASURE OF HIS WILL" (Eph 1:4-5a, emphasis mine). 
Further,
"...being predestined ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE OF HIM who works all things ACCORDING TO THE COUNSEL OF HIS WILL" (Eph 1:11, emphasis mine). 

"Those who are willing to turn from their sins and believe that Christ bore all their sins in their place at Calvary, become through faith by grace, God's elect." This again, I think is a grave, unbiblical error. We do not believe and then "become" elect. In fact, according to the Bible we do not "become" elect at all. 

I think the scripture couldn’t be more clear:

“Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began” (2Tim 1:9). 
This one verse of scripture demolishes the unbiblical notion that election is based upon anything the sinner does. It also does away with the idea of the sinner “becoming” elect. Rather, the biblical election of grace was given to us “before time began.” 
God in His word, in one short verse, obliterates the anthropocentric notions of sinners “electing” themselves by believing and of sinners “becoming” elect at some point in time according to their own abilities to turn from their sin. 

"What is the use of praying for the unsaved, as they may not be ‘the elect’? We pray for sinners for the same reason we preach to them: God ordains the means and the ends of salvation. It is through preaching and praying that God sovereignly saves the elect. Therefore, the Christian prays and preaches with full confidence in God and no confidence in sinful men. 
Why pray for God to save a loved one if you truly believe salvation isn’t ultimately up to God but up to the loved one? Why pray for God to save the sinner if you are convinced the salvation of the sinner finally rests with the sinner? 
Regardless of your stated beliefs, I'm going to assume that you have prayed for God to save a sinner. That being the case, did you say things like: God, please soften his/her heart...please open his/her eyes...please save his/her soul? 
If you pray thus, then you are acknowledging that it is God—not the sinner—who opens hearts and eyes. You are acknowledging that God—not the sinner—brings about faith and repentance. You are acknowledging that God—not the sinner—is sovereign in salvation.


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## KMK (Apr 21, 2012)

Constantlyreforming said:


> I guess in a sense God actively ensured the reprobates damnation by decreeing the fall into sin....and the effect it would have on all Adam's descendants. There is the example of the hardening of the heart. What I do not see is mankind desperately wanting Christ, and God saying no. The yearn for Christ is wrought in the believer through regeneration, which is only given to the elect.
> 
> I would agree. God is passive in Reprobation, but active in judgment.



Yes, the reprobate get exactly what they desire: an eternity without God. But, technically speaking, I don't think the act of decree can be described as 'active' or 'passive' action. A decree, in and of itself, is not an action.



> WCF 3:VI. As God has appointed the elect unto glory, so has He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto.



It is the means which are active and the absence of means is passive. For example, the hardening of the heart of Pharaoh was by the 'withholding' of the means of grace from Pharaoh. Therefore, it can be said that God hardened Pharaoh's heart but He did so passively and all according to His eternal decree.


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## NB3K (Apr 21, 2012)

KMK said:


> For example, the hardening of the heart of Pharaoh was by the 'withholding' of the means of grace from Pharaoh. Therefore, it can be said that God hardened Pharaoh's heart but He did so passively and all according to His eternal decree.






> Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, *"FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU*, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." [NASB]



So God demonstrated passively his power in Pharaoh?

I agree that it was all of His eternal decree, but I believe God can do both. He can act passively or active. Everything is His and He can do to what is His as He pleases. And none can stay His hand or question Him.


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## Zach (Apr 21, 2012)

I don't claim to be very well read on this topic or even remotely capable of understanding the depths of the wisdom of the Lord on this subject. One thing is clear to me from Scripture with regard to this topic and Ken touched on it; the unrepentant get exactly what they desire. It is the wickedness of sin that sends one to hell and sinning is active. Apart from the sheer grace of the Lord Jesus every human being is actively sending themselves to hell.


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## KMK (Apr 22, 2012)

NB3K said:


> So God demonstrated passively his power in Pharaoh?



God demonstrated His power in Pharaoh by withholding the means of grace. Without the means of grace Pharaoh's heart was 'given up' to uncleanness and vile affections and a reprobate mind. (Rom 1) Without the influence of the HS, man's heart is on a slippery slope toward darkness. Why? Because man loves darkness and hates the light because his deeds are evil. (John 3) God does not need to actively use means to darken Pharaoh's heart for it is inclined to go in that direction anyway.

The idea that God must work actively in both election and reprobation assumes some kind of 'neutral state' within man. But this is not so. If God fails to work actively in and for man he doesn't remain in some 'status quo'. Man is naturally inclined to evil (Rom 3) and the only thing preventing the world from falling into perfect corruption is the active work of God. No active work of God is required 'force' the reprobate into condemnation.



> WCF 3:VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or *withholds* mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, *to pass by*; and *to ordain* them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.



By passively withholding mercy and passing them by, He has ordained them to wrath to the praise of His glorious justice.


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## KMK (Apr 22, 2012)

Zach said:


> Apart from the sheer grace of the Lord Jesus every human being is actively sending themselves to hell.



Well put.

Your post also reminds me of paragraph 8 of chapter 3, "The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care..."


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