# Chivalry



## VirginiaHuguenot (Feb 9, 2008)

Esquire magazine had some recent articles on the subject of chivalry. In one, a (non-Christian) panel of women was asked to respond to specific scenarios, such as whether men should hold the door open for women, give up a seat for a woman on the train, offer assistance to a woman carrying a large suitcase at the airport, observe a man (probably a boyfriend) arguing/disrespecting/"getting physical" a woman in a parking lot, etc. The responses were interesting. There was some appreciation for a man holding a door open for a woman, for example, but not if he had to stand for more than second or two and wait for her to arrive; and a great deal of resistance to a man giving up a seat for a young woman (who may or may not be pregnant). The suggestion that a woman might need help from a man was often viewed as demeaning or "chauvinistic." 

I'd be interested in hearing the views of PB'ers, men and women, on the subject of chivalry. Is it dead? Should it be dead? Is chivalry Christian, or does it just overlap with some Christian values? If our society is not chivalrous, is it just weird to uphold a code of conduct that many woman find offensive though designed to protect them? Should we (men) be chivalrous anyway? If so, what does 21st-century chivalry look like, in America, or elsewhere? 

I have some thoughts of my own. What are your thoughts?


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## Reformed Covenanter (Feb 9, 2008)

It seems to be dead, but it should not be dead. It is because men are such a bunch of women that feminism is on the rise.


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## BJClark (Feb 9, 2008)

VirginiaHuguenot;

Polling the ladies in my home (15, 19 and myself)...I find..

Should a man hold a door open for a woman? Yes

Should a man give up his seat for a woman on the train? 

He should at least make the offer...if she declines he's at least made the offer..(we all agree depending on the situaiton we would probably thank him for the offer but decline)

Should a man offer to carry a large suitcase in the airport? If he knows the woman yes, if he doesn't we think it would be awkward.

If he observes a man arguing/disrespecting/"getting physical" a woman in a parking lot, etc. should he say/do something? Yes!!

My son who is 13 often holds the door for people, I've often heard elderly couples thanking him and walking away saying..."what a nice young gentleman".

There have been many times when men hold the door open for me, and I always tell them thank you..but then I also hold the door open for elderly women, and I find that most times if a man is walking up they take hold of the door and wait for the women to enter first...So, no I don't think it's dead, but in many places it is dying...

And my oldest daughter said a young man at her college stood there for like 5 minutes holding the door open waiting on the ladies to walk through...

I don't know maybe it's because I live in the south??


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## VictorBravo (Feb 9, 2008)

Funny, I think it is making a comeback in Seattle. I always hold doors open for women. I used to get sour looks. Now, more often than not, I get a delighted "thank you!"

I move in circles in which women are professional peers. I think they are more secure in their position and don't feel they need the system to beat men down in order to get ahead. But I get the same response from women of all ages. Maybe people are starting to grow up.

(Or maybe I've reached the point that I come across as doddering and archaic and everyone is just being polite)


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Feb 13, 2008)

Thanks very much for these comments. Any other thoughts?


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## MrMerlin777 (Feb 13, 2008)

Daniel Ritchie said:


> It seems to be dead, but it should not be dead. It is because men are such a bunch of women that feminism is on the rise.



I agree. 

Especially here in the US it seems that chivalry is dead. But there are some of us men that are trying to revive it.

I've found that when I hold doors open etc, it seems to be very much appreciated.

Especially in parts of the south.


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## MW (Feb 13, 2008)

I thought chivalry died at Agincourt.  But seriously, I think we should attempt to uphold a gentlemanly standard, but must realise we are limited by what the ladies will let us do for them. Oftentimes it is appreciated, but on the odd occasion it will be met with scorn.


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## Pergamum (Feb 13, 2008)

Chivalry is not farting in Walmart and blaming it on your wife.


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## ChristopherPaul (Feb 13, 2008)

--Is it dead? 

It seems like it, but there are remnants of knights out there.

--Should it be dead? 

No, but the motives for doing such must be changed before it can be revived. Nowadays if such noble deeds are done, it may very well be done with the intent to be chivalrous for the sake of being chivalrous (an outward show) instead of the intent to be loving our neighbor and showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel.

--Is chivalry Christian, or does it just overlap with some Christian values?

Yes, especially to our wives as was already referenced above 1 Peter 3:7 speaks to chivalry: "Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered." There are some chivalrous acts that can be done to strange woman who are not your spouse that will be considered flirting over being gentlemanly.

--If our society is not chivalrous, is it just weird to uphold a code of conduct that many woman find offensive though designed to protect them? Should we (men) be chivalrous anyway? If so, what does 21st-century chivalry look like, in America, or elsewhere?

Yes it is weird and we men need to be mindful of this view. We can offer but not insist. In the hay day of chivalry the women were more accepting of such manners whereas today society is not as willing to accept anything from anybody as willingly as once was expected. It is almost offensive to be blessed by another person these days. How many time can any of us recall how an offer almost turned into an argument before either the person gave in and accepted the blessing or the giver gave up? So I think it goes both ways. The giver and the receiver has changed in the 21st century.


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## JBaldwin (Feb 13, 2008)

My responses would echo those of Bobbi and girls. 

In my opinion, chivalry is an attitude. My father who rarely opened a door or pulled out a chair for my mother or me and my sisters, was one of the most chivalrous men I've known. It was in his attitude. He respected us and treated us with high regard. He always considered our needs before his own and was sensitive to our feminine ways. He always came to our defense and protected us from things that he deemed dangerous (though he was not overprotective). My father made me feel like a woman, and my mother was always treated like a queen. 

In my little corner of the south, I have seen men open doors for a woman one day and beat up their wife the next. Did opening the door make them chivalrous? No, but it sure made people think they were.


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## BJClark (Feb 13, 2008)

My daughter went on a date last night, it was storming, the young man offered to walk to his truck and pull around so that she would not get wet, she declined his offer, so he took off his jacket and used it to cover her head as they walked to the vehicle together. And today, she recieved half a dozen roses that he ordered before they ever went out.

She was impressed, but even moreso that he didn't try to kiss her good night or hold her hand or make any phyiscal advances while on the date.

JBaldwin,

I agree, it is an attitude that shines through.


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## Blue Tick (Feb 14, 2008)

> Chivalry is not farting in Walmart and blaming it on your wife.


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## No Longer A Libertine (Feb 14, 2008)

So long as I breath there shall be chivalry on this earth.

I shall draw chivalry unto my bosom and care for it like a newborn mare, to defend the very honor and integrity of virtuous conduct amongst the sexes, to refrain from all sociological insistence that begs for one to get 'fresh' with the fairer of the species, to sound my barbaric yelp from the rooftops with melodious sonnets that guard the heart while simultaneously wooing it for capture. Yes I Ernest P. Worel am the definitive Casanova for all ages, the Don Juan of Don Juans, the radiant lure of love on Cupid's arrows, know what I mean Vern?


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## Puddleglum (Feb 14, 2008)

Guys should try. 

Personally, I'm getting better at accepting it.  It's hard to accept, esp. if you're used to doing things yourself and not getting help and you feel like you need to "prove" that you can do it, yadda yadda. 

One thing though . . . there is a noticeable difference btwn the attitude of "I'm doing this so that the girls will notice me" and true chivalry. The first is not appreciated.


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## panta dokimazete (Feb 14, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> Chivalry is not farting in Walmart and blaming it on your wife.


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