# Heretic hunters



## SolaSaint (Nov 7, 2011)

Does anyone believe in what Isaiah 55:8-9 states, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts"?

Is there any theological stance that insists on knowing God's ways 100%? Can we know God in all His ways? Is there any mystery in scripture especially Soteriology. It seems like all I read and hear from both Calvinists and free-willers is how wrong the opposing view is. I see much hatred in commentaries to the point they call others that disagree hereitcs. James White seems to really be on the hunt for any Christian that hints at free will, even if joking. I have also heard many Arminian's who do the same calling Calvinists cruel and heartless.

We have a growing number of new atheists who are more vocal than ever and here we are bickering about how someone comes to Christ. I'll assume many in here came to Christ through an Arminian witness or service and have grown to be a Calvinist after careful study of scripture. That is me anyhow. While we spend hours and hours crafting assaults against our brothers in Christ the true enemy is prospering in keeping the unbeleivers sold out against Christianty. 

How can we get beyond the the oldest agrument in Christianty and unite in the fact everyone needs redmeption no matter how they are drawn to Christ. Can any of us truly say someone isn't drawn to Christ because we don't believe in their doctrine of Soteriology? Jesus commanded us to make disciples, so don't we need to take them from where they are at and teach them Scripture and if they are truly saved the Holy Spirit will guide them to truth. 

I'm off the soap box now.


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## NB3K (Nov 7, 2011)

Brother I am apologize if this comes off to you as mean and hateful, but I stand on my convictions that Arminianism is not the Gospel and I say ACCURSED is Arminianism like the Apostle Paul would call those that were teaching a gospel that was no gospel at all!

I know that is mean, but that is how we are suppose to treat those that teach heresy! Calvin said once that you embrace the Grace of God you will tolerate nothing that demeans it {Paraphrase} 

If the Gospel of Unconditional Sovereign Grace is dashed to pieces by the acceptance of a Conditional Grace where is the Good News there????????????


We must not allow the Semi-Pelagians that infected the Roman Church to infect the Protestant Church (though we have lost that battle). What we are going through is the same thing that happened to Rome! If we fail to hold the banner of Sovereign Grace, I am sure we will become just like Rome (and in many ways we have at large)


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## AThornquist (Nov 7, 2011)

SolaSaint said:


> James White seems to really be on the hunt for any Christian that hints at free will, even if joking.



I don't think that's fair to say. Sure, when he is examining debates or is addressing someone who is propounding such a view, he may make note of it. But he is "on the hunt?" And for "any Christian" who is in this particular error? Sure, maybe you are being hyperbolic, but I'm not sure how that promotes the unity you seem to be asking for. And by the way, Dr. White has worked with and supported a number of Arminians in various contexts, despite differences regarding the will.

By the way, I agree that Arminianism is a great error, but confronting it like in Jason's post _is not_ the solution. Being an Arminian does not preclude one from being a Christian, though it is true that an understanding of sovereign grace provides a much clearer and better defined Gospel. _Many_ Arminians will go to heaven, but there will be no Arminians in heaven, because the doctrinal errors that result from the noetic effects of the fall will be corrected. Such will be the case for the errors believed about the miraculous gifts, ecclesiology, baptism, etc.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Nov 7, 2011)

I would only say that God requires me to be kind, compassionate, not thinking more highly of myself than I ought to think. One thing that helps me in understanding that is that God gives ears to hear and eyes to see. A few passages that enforce that in my life are 



> (Mat 11:25) At that time Jesus answered and said, *I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.*
> (Mat 11:26) Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
> (Mat 11:27) All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
> 
> ...



This makes me humbled and compassionate towards those who oppose themselves. We should be more like this. 



> (2Ti 2:23) But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
> (2Ti 2:24) *And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,*
> (2Ti 2:25) *In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;*
> (2Ti 2:26) And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.



At the same time I would like to say that confronting error is not a bad thing and it is necessary to keep watch over doctrinal things for the health of the Body of Christ as Paul noted. 



> (1Ti 4:14) Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
> (1Ti 4:15) Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
> (1Ti 4:16) *Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.*


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## Zach (Nov 7, 2011)

We are called to be passionate about preserving the doctrine of the true gospel and part of that includes defending the sovereign grace of God. However, to attack many sincere brothers in Christ is arrogant and uncharitable. Nobody has a perfect understanding of doctrine this side of heaven and I say a hearty  to Andrew's post and look forward to the day when there will be no more error in our doctrine. Until then, we have to preach the true gospel *with gentleness and love*.


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## Skyler (Nov 7, 2011)

I wonder sometimes if there needs to be such a strong and bitter divide between Arminians and Calvinists. Most Arminians, in their heart of hearts, believe and act like Calvinists. They believe that God is powerful and that He saves sinners, they pray to that end, and they trust that He will use even the bad things that befall them for good. It seems counterproductive to me to magnify--and, in many cases, actually increase--our differences, rather than focusing on and expanding our common ground.

Of course doctrine is important; of course beliefs have consequences. I'd be the last person to deny that. I'm not saying we should brush the Calvinism debate under the rug when disagreements come up. But when the debate does come up, most people either haven't tried building common ground or intentionally minimize or brush aside what common ground exists. It becomes a conflict, man against man, instead of man against the Word of God.

I know... I'm an idealist. Finding a unity in the Church that goes beyond surface matters like doctrinal persuasion is a pipe dream. But you can't blame me for trying.


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## Edward (Nov 7, 2011)

Atheists are less of a threat to the peace and purity of the church than are those who would infiltrate and subvert the local congregation.


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## SolaSaint (Nov 7, 2011)

AThornquist said:


> SolaSaint said:
> 
> 
> > James White seems to really be on the hunt for any Christian that hints at free will, even if joking.
> ...



Good post but I wasn't trying to be fair with my comment on Jame White just factual. Have you listened to him lately? I love listening to him but I feel he is overly attacking a few Christians over comments that are far from heretical. in my opinion


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## NB3K (Nov 7, 2011)

When I said 



NB3K said:


> but that is how we are suppose to treat those that teach heresy!



I did not mean to be mean spirited towards them. I go and help out at many "Arminian" churches. Heck I even helped on get accross the country in a four day drive.

What I am saying though; it should be an open season policy to call out their error. I understand that this is not the job for everyone. We should love them, but in no way, shape, or form accept their synergism.


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## SolaSaint (Nov 7, 2011)

Edward said:


> Atheists are less of a threat to the peace and purity of the church than are those who would infiltrate and subvert the local congregation.



I guess I would have to agree, but let's do it as Zach said with love and gentleness not name calling and harshness. Please don't missunderstand me. I defenitely am a Calivinist but I don't like the tone from our side lately. Now about Atheists in the greater society I would have to say they are more of a threat to society in general, but not the church--I hope we agree there.

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Skyler said:


> I wonder sometimes if there needs to be such a strong and bitter divide between Arminians and Calvinists. Most Arminians, in their heart of hearts, believe and act like Calvinists. They believe that God is powerful and that He saves sinners, they pray to that end, and they trust that He will use even the bad things that befall them for good. It seems counterproductive to me to magnify--and, in many cases, actually increase--our differences, rather than focusing on and expanding our common ground.
> 
> Of course doctrine is important; of course beliefs have consequences. I'd be the last person to deny that. I'm not saying we should brush the Calvinism debate under the rug when disagreements come up. But when the debate does come up, most people either haven't tried building common ground or intentionally minimize or brush aside what common ground exists. It becomes a conflict, man against man, instead of man against the Word of God.
> 
> I know... I'm an idealist. Finding a unity in the Church that goes beyond surface matters like doctrinal persuasion is a pipe dream. But you can't blame me for trying.



AMEN, nice post.


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## Zach (Nov 7, 2011)

Edward said:


> Atheists are less of a threat to the peace and purity of the church than are those who would infiltrate and subvert the local congregation.



Absolutely, and we should defend the true gospel. But what does it say about us if we go into their churches and stir up controversy and threaten the peace of their churches? We can effectively defend the doctrine of the true Gospel without seeking out controversy and without forgetting that many Arminians are our brothers in Christ.


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## SolaSaint (Nov 8, 2011)

I don't know, I sometimes feel it is arrogance on our part as Calvinists to claim to have grasped the gospel entirely when the gospel itself says God's ways are past our understanding. Just food for thought. I know someone will say Calvinists don't grasp the entire gospel 100% but it sure seems that way sometimes, as I'm sure the Arminian camp does likewise. 

I just hate the conflict sometimes.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Nov 8, 2011)

SolaSaint said:


> I don't know, I sometimes feel it is arrogance on our part as Calvinists to claim to have grasped the gospel entirely when the gospel itself says God's ways are past our understanding. Just food for thought. I know someone will say Calvinists don't grasp the entire gospel 100% but it sure seems that way sometimes, as I'm sure the Arminian camp does likewise.
> 
> I just hate the conflict sometimes.



To be honest I am having a little problem with your use of the text in Isaiah 55:8,9. It just seems that you are lifting that small passage out of context. The whole passage is about what God is going to do in saving a His people. And understanding is called for in the passage. In the prior chapters and passages he is declaring something that is going to happen and even though they might not understand it, it will come to pass. Then those who do understand will do what he says because his word will not return to him void. His ways are higher and his thoughts are heavenly and righteous. Those things are above us. He is going to lift us up as the following passage indicates. 



> (Isa 55:10) For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
> 
> (Isa 55:11) So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
> 
> ...



He is going to restore and lift up. It is reasonable and understandable. That is just my observation. I believe you are misapplying the passage. After all the book starts out ...



> (Isa 1:16) Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
> 
> (Isa 1:17) Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
> 
> ...



It is understandable and reasonable.


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## Stargazer65 (Nov 8, 2011)

Part of what you perceive is just in the nature of refuting an error. It's hard to refute an error without berating a person that believes that error. James White is in the position of having to do that. 

I understand the sentiment though Rick. There are times when error should be refuted, and there are times when it should not. I've been involved in prison ministry off and on. Lots of arminians in the ministry. It would be a waste of time if we spent it arguing over TULIP, or looking down our noses at each other. My experience has been that most Christian's beliefs are better than their theology. I've never met a arminian Christian who actually denied the sovereignty of God. As a matter of fact I just listened to an arminian guy this weekend who was refuting that faith was the gift of God, and then he went on and affirmed God's sovereignty in everything. If I would have had time alone with him later we could have discussed it. But our time was limited, I had lunch with him and many other Christians, I didn't feel a need to engage in polemics when we only had an hour to fellowship.


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## Edward (Nov 8, 2011)

Zach said:


> But what does it say about us if we go into their churches and stir up controversy and threaten the peace of their churches?


We have enough problem with our churches that we probably don't have time to move from the defensive to the offensive, but complacent heretics could use a bit of stirring up.


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## Rich Koster (Nov 8, 2011)

In my humble opinion we should teach the truth. When someone comes into a R congregation and wants to propagate the A bad doctrine, then we correct them and let them know,in no uncertain terms, that it will not be tolerated. If they leave, oh well. If they stay, we have won them over. I find it a waste of time to continuously debunk all of the denominations in error. It has been done before, and they refuse to listen. The solution: have nothing to do with them.

James White is in an intentional debate forum. The whole purpose of the broadcast is to put the two opposing views against each other and let the listener decide who won the argument. I doubt James expects to win his opponent over, but hopes to prove the error before the opponents fan club, to make THEM question the error, and therefore reject the false doctrine.


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## J. Dean (Nov 8, 2011)

SolaSaint said:


> Good post but I wasn't trying to be fair with my comment on Jame White just factual. Have you listened to him lately? I love listening to him but I feel he is overly attacking a few Christians over comments that are far from heretical. in my opinion


Roger Olson is an example of this extremism on the Arminian side.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've not seen anybody here categorically deny that Arminians are Christians. I agree with R.C. Sproul when he says that Arminians are Christians... barely. 

That being said, Arminianism is off from Scripture, period. And while I do not label Arminians as heretics, neither will I affirm that they are correct on their stances regarding election and sovereignty.


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## Zach (Nov 8, 2011)

Edward said:


> Zach said:
> 
> 
> > But what does it say about us if we go into their churches and stir up controversy and threaten the peace of their churches?
> ...



I agree with what you are saying, we should be confronting people with biblical truth and pointing out error. But, I don't believe it to be in gentleness and love if I were to go into an Arminian Church looking for a fight about the sovereign grace of God. A quote that has helped me deal with people in recent weeks in discussion was something John Piper said. "If you flee controversy over Christ you are probably a coward, if you seek it you are probably prideful." I know a lot of the time I feel the need to go kick some heretic butt it's usually me being prideful and lacking the gentleness and love we are called to have.


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## NB3K (Nov 8, 2011)

Let's remember the word's of our Lord & Master

Joh 10:5 A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers."


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## Pilgrim Standard (Nov 8, 2011)

Some in the Arminian circles I am familiar with did not seem to grasp the difference between reliance upon Christ for salvation and reliance upon their reliance upon Christ for salvation. Those who tended towards placing their faith in their own actions caused me the most trouble in heart towards them. They are a mission field of sorts. Not that I believe that they are not Christians, but that they certainly need understanding. Those who were obstinate in holding to their free will and ability to keep a supposed reduction in the Law just would not hear God's word were quite a different lot than the first. 

I often think we incorrectly lump all Arminians together into a single group. There are Arminians who pray like Calvinists. These have hearts better than their heads. These are our brothers and sister in Christ, and need compassion, love and gentile mentoring. They are simply the weaker brethren. Then there are those that would attack these same prayers and those who pray them, and they are the ones that need to be dealt with. Those who incessantly attempt to proselytize others towards Arminian thinking are performing heinous actions. 

In other words, I have heard much gospel preaching and teaching from Arminians. On the other hand I have heard outright consistent attacks upon the Gospel and the Atonement of Christ from the pulpits of other Arminians. Certainly there is a dichotomy between the two groups, and therefore differing approaches and reactions should be sought in response to them.


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## NB3K (Nov 8, 2011)

I used to fight all the time with the Semi-Pelagians on youtube I have stopped that. I have found that there is no gain in arguing. So now all I do is study and preach the word in my church. The only way one is to believe is if it is preached! The Word that is!!!

Even though I denounce their heresy, I feel that we still need to love on them, just as Paul loved his kinsmen according to the flesh. I know I should have the attitude of Paul. 



> Rom 9:2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart.
> Rom 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh.



But at the same time Paul did not hesitate to refute the errors of the Jews!!!!



> Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--
> Gal 1:7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
> Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
> Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
> Gal 1:10 For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.



I am the only "Augustinian/Calvinist" in my family. And I do have great sorrow for my family members. But at the same time I cannot stand to hear the Gospel perverted from their lips. I prayed God please save my family!!!! I know it is in God's hands and not in their hands. They reject my Gospel and hold to their free willism! Which I openly detest. 

So we do not talk. I am considered to be in left-field in their minds. They even joke and make fun of the doctrines which I hold so dearly to my heart. My mother is more interested to talk about how "big" her church is, and she will tell you about how many "decisions" that were made for Christ rather than to speak of what the Scriptures say. Therefore my mother has fallen in the trap of Sophistry and she is blinded to the Truth by the wickedness of her depravity. This is not something that I enjoy talking about, it really makes me sad. It makes me want to pray more and more that God would effectually destroy the Sophistry that is embedded in her heart and mind and implant a heart of flesh so that she will love the Lord as the Lord desires and commands.


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## SolaSaint (Nov 8, 2011)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> SolaSaint said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know, I sometimes feel it is arrogance on our part as Calvinists to claim to have grasped the gospel entirely when the gospel itself says God's ways are past our understanding. Just food for thought. I know someone will say Calvinists don't grasp the entire gospel 100% but it sure seems that way sometimes, as I'm sure the Arminian camp does likewise.
> ...



So you are saying we can know God's ways, all of them?

---------- Post added at 03:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:42 PM ----------




Stargazer65 said:


> Part of what you perceive is just in the nature of refuting an error. It's hard to refute an error without berating a person that believes that error. James White is in the position of having to do that.
> 
> I understand the sentiment though Rick. There are times when error should be refuted, and there are times when it should not. I've been involved in prison ministry off and on. Lots of arminians in the ministry. It would be a waste of time if we spent it arguing over TULIP, or looking down our noses at each other. My experience has been that most Christian's beliefs are better than their theology. I've never met a arminian Christian who actually denied the sovereignty of God. As a matter of fact I just listened to an arminian guy this weekend who was refuting that faith was the gift of God, and then he went on and affirmed God's sovereignty in everything. If I would have had time alone with him later we could have discussed it. But our time was limited, I had lunch with him and many other Christians, I didn't feel a need to engage in polemics when we only had an hour to fellowship.



Thanks Kevin, but I feel there are many on the PB who would refuse to yolk with the same guy in ministry. Sadly.


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## NB3K (Nov 8, 2011)

Can I suggest a book?

*Arminianism - Another Gospel.
By William MacLean.*


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## Prufrock (Nov 8, 2011)

SolaSaint said:


> So you are saying we can know God's ways, all of them?



_Of course_ we can know God's ways *which he has revealed in his word* - that's why he revealed them! Paul, in 1 Corinthians, explicitly opposes the idea that we cannot know God's ways, and the reason is simply that he has revealed them. Yes, God's ways are not our ways, and they are higher than our ways: but then what? "_But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God_, 1 Cor. 2:10-12." This doesn't mean that every particular, individual member actively has perfect knowledge brought to fruition in his own mind - but we, as a church, can indeed be confident that our confession is true and does not err.

As a side note, while there are many overly-zealous "Arminian hunting" Calvinists on the internet, I can honestly say I do not know a single one in real life; nor do the Calvinists I know spend very much time at all talking about Arminianism, as though any of them see the Christian world as composed chiefly of the categories "Calvinist" and "Arminian."



SolaSaint said:


> I see much hatred in commentaries to the point they call others that disagree hereitcs.


I don't know what commentaries you have been reading, but I would highly recommend finding better ones if the ones you are reading are filled with hatred. Perhaps you could make a thread about commentaries on whatever book/s of scripture you're desiring to read so as to produce discussion of the _good_ literature out there.


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## NB3K (Nov 8, 2011)

Prufrock said:


> Of course we can know God's ways which he has revealed in his word - that's why he revealed them! Paul, in 1 Corinthians, explicitly opposes the idea that we cannot know God's ways, and the reason is simply that he has revealed them. Yes, God's ways are not our ways, and they are higher than our ways: but then what? "But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God, 1 Cor. 2:10-12



But did not Paul also state:



> 1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
> 1Co 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
> 1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.
> 1Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.



A while back in another thread I once said it is impossible to know the works of God. When I said that, I meant in the context of the above quoted text of Paul. Simply because our minds are twisted and wicked, we always strive to twist things to our satisfaction. THANK GOD FOR SOVEREIGN GRACE!


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## Prufrock (Nov 8, 2011)

Jason, that is a different topic. Paul is not talking about normal, abiding spiritual knowledge in 1 Cor. 12-14, but about the _gifts_ of knowledge and prophecy; he is stating that, so long as these temporary gifts were around and were the source of our instruction, they only served to give "part." The whole argument of the passage revolves around putting behind us such fading and fragmentary means which, though powerful, were necessary and transitory vestiges of God's former way of speaking "in sundry parts and in divers manners," and moving on to the perfect and full revelation of the "faith once delivered" which came by the Son in "these last days" or "at the end of these days." So long as we remain in sinful flesh, we, naturally, will not each individually perfectly receive and understand the entirety of revelation which belongs to the New Covenant dispensation, but this is not what is at the fore of Paul's argument in 1 Cor. 13.


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## AThornquist (Nov 8, 2011)

SolaSaint said:


> Good post but I wasn't trying to be fair with my comment on Jame White just factual. Have you listened to him lately? I love listening to him but I feel he is overly attacking a few Christians over comments that are far from heretical. in my opinion



I listen to every episode.  Do you have any examples of what you are referring to in recent times? The criticisms of Islam? Middle knowledge? Unitarianism? Who has been critiqued, and what has been wrongly said by brother White?


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## SolaSaint (Nov 8, 2011)

AThornquist said:


> SolaSaint said:
> 
> 
> > Good post but I wasn't trying to be fair with my comment on Jame White just factual. Have you listened to him lately? I love listening to him but I feel he is overly attacking a few Christians over comments that are far from heretical. in my opinion
> ...



Specifically when he targeted William L. Craig for stating someone nneded to just get saved referring to an atheist debater. I can't remember the exact quote. But I never said White said anything wrongly, I just said he was harsh.

---------- Post added at 06:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:36 PM ----------

Would I be wrong to state that there is a bit of God's mystery in how He saves individuals?

---------- Post added at 06:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:38 PM ----------

Would I be wrong to state that there is a bit of God's mystery in how He saves individuals?


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## SolaSaint (Nov 10, 2011)

"To be honest I am having a little problem with your use of the text in Isaiah 55:8,9. It just seems that you are lifting that small passage out of context. The whole passage is about what God is going to do in saving a His people. And understanding is called for in the passage. In the prior chapters and passages he is declaring something that is going to happen and even though they might not understand it, it will come to pass. Then those who do understand will do what he says because his word will not return to him void. His ways are higher and his thoughts are heavenly and righteous. Those things are above us. He is going to lift us up as the following passage indicates."

R. Martin,

I think you misunderstand my comment, you acknowledge that Isaiah's readers will not understand God, and that is what my use of Isaiah 55 was all about. Really you just verified what I submitted. We can't assume that what Isaiah is referring to is free-will salvation or His Sovereignty in salvation can we? I just think we ought to be a little easier on our Arminian brothers and sisters, that is all.


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## NB3K (Nov 10, 2011)

> *8. Personal Choice *
> 224. We believe that humanity's creation in the image of God included ability to choose between right and wrong. Thus individuals were made morally responsible for their choices. But since the fall of Adam, people are unable in their own strength to do the right. This is due to original sin, which is not simply the following of Adam's example, but rather the corruption of the nature of each mortal, and is reproduced naturally in Adam's descendants. Because of it, humans are very far gone from original righteousness, and by nature are continually inclined to evil. They cannot of themselves even call upon God or exercise faith for salvation.* But through Jesus Christ the prevenient grace of God makes possible what humans in self effort cannot do. It is bestowed freely upon all, enabling all who will to turn and be saved*
> [WESLEYAN DOCTRINAL STATEMENT]




The bold/underlined part of the Wesleyan Doctrinal Statement contains rank heresy. I mean that is if 

1. You believe in the 5 Sola's of the Protestant Reformation namely Sola Scriptura.
2. You believe that Christ's death actual saved, as Jesus Himself would say, "All that the Father gave me".

I mean if God's grace was as they say it is, what hope is there for us? They speak in a manner that makes them a co-partner in their being saved by their so called god's prevenient grace, and I would think that as a horrible perversion of the Sovereign Grace of the Almighty. In their system God is not Sovereign, well their god is not Sovereign. Their God has to submit his will to the will of corrupt humans beings. These things are just as bad as Eve disbeliving God when she was tempted by Satan in the garden. It's the tricks of Satan. There seems to be so much truth in Arminianism that those deep in it are blinded by it. It's perversions are not easily noticble. This is why many fall into the trap!

God's voted for you, Satan voted against you, Now you make the choice! Where do you want to spend eternity! Is the call of Satan and not the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob!


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Nov 10, 2011)

Pilgrim Standard said:


> There are Arminians who pray like Calvinists.


Indeed. Lex orandi, lex credenda. 

AMR


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