# RPW, asked another way



## steadfast7 (Aug 11, 2010)

Are there any explicit scripture passages repudiating creativity in worship?


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## littlepeople (Aug 11, 2010)

EXO 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

DEU 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Leviticus 10 
1Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took their respective firepans, and after putting fire in them, placed incense on it and offered strange fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them. 2And fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed them, and they died before the LORD. 
3Then Moses said to Aaron, “It is what the LORD spoke, saying,
‘By those who come near Me I will be treated as holy,
And before all the people I will be honored.’”
So Aaron, therefore, kept silent. 

There are a few to get started with

---------- Post added at 02:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:26 AM ----------

Also Jer. 19:5 presents a very precise and succinct example: and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind

-Notice the importance of it never being commanded.

Enjoy your digging into the RPW. It can be a very rewarding and comforting doctrine to romp around in.


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## Scott1 (Aug 11, 2010)

When using the word "creativity," it is implicitly speaking of a person's (imagined) creativity, that is subjective to a person, not really based on how God has set it. And that's the problem.

Man imagines all sorts of things about how man might decide worship of His Creator.



> Leviticus 10
> 
> 1And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
> 
> 2And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.


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## larryjf (Aug 11, 2010)

You may want to be more specific in what you mean by "creativity in worship" as that can include allowing dogs to take the Lord's Supper.


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## steadfast7 (Aug 11, 2010)

Agreed on the above passages, thanks. There are certainly things which are forbidden to be done within the sphere of worship. Now, to clarify on "creativity." Are there any examples of acts of worship (either corporate or individual) that we were done without explicit command, but were acceptable to God.

Some examples:
1. The building of altar's to Yahweh by various OT individuals, eg. Jacob
2. David's installation of temple musicians
3. David's decision to sacrifice an ox every 6 steps while bringing the ark to Jerusalem and his subsequent dancing in the linen ephod
4. Solomon's architectural designs for the temple, and the employment of artistic license (eg. pomegranates)
5. Mary anointing Jesus' feet with perfume

In these examples, I do not necessarily see how they worshipped according to a regulative scriptural command, but did as they saw fit, and it was still acceptable to God. I haven't thought it through in-depth, but would appreciate the interaction.

cheers.


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## larryjf (Aug 11, 2010)

I would suggest considering worship more specifically in relation to corporate worship and those things that are the "elements" of worship rather than those things that are the circumstances of worship (e.g. the church building, pews, etc.)

Here's a good paper...
http://www.reformedprescambridge.com/articles/ICRC_RPW_Final.pdf


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## EverReforming (Aug 11, 2010)

> And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him. Colossians 3:17 (ESV)



I think it really comes down to the why of our worship. Being fully honest with ourselves, are we being "creative" to draw attention to ourselves, or are we truly trying to glorify God through the means he's given us? Worship should be done to lift God up, not ourselves.


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## py3ak (Aug 11, 2010)

Nova said:


> Agreed on the above passages, thanks. There are certainly things which are forbidden to be done within the sphere of worship. Now, to clarify on "creativity." Are there any examples of acts of worship (either corporate or individual) that we were done without explicit command, but were acceptable to God.
> 
> Some examples:
> 1. The building of altar's to Yahweh by various OT individuals, eg. Jacob
> ...


 
God specifically called for an altar of unhewn stones - resisting man's instinct to elaboration. Also, David received guidelines for Solomon's use in building the temple: there is, in other words, no evidence of artistic license in its construction (anymore than in the construction of the tabernacle), although obviously it would take skill to follow God's instructions.


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## Philip (Aug 11, 2010)

How about the feasts of Purim and Hannukah, both of which Christ is recorded as having participated in?


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## steadfast7 (Aug 11, 2010)

py3ak said:


> God specifically called for an altar of unhewn stones - resisting man's instinct to elaboration. Also, David received guidelines for Solomon's use in building the temple: there is, in other words, no evidence of artistic license in its construction (anymore than in the construction of the tabernacle), although obviously it would take skill to follow God's instructions.


 
[BIBLE]1 Kings 7:13-22[/BIBLE]

There was obviously much more that went into the building of the temple than the tabernacle given the difference in scale and materials involved (tents and poles vs. cedar/gold/stone, etc). Solomon would likely not have received any special revelation regarding the character of this building project - unless one argues that it was part of the divine wisdom that he had received earlier.

As for the altars, many were constructed before the time of the law, and it seems they (Noah, Abram, Isaac, Jacob) built them according to their own understanding, or possibly borrowed it from their culture.

I think the distinction between the circumstance and elements of worship cannot be made so easily. The specific instructions for tabernacle construction were intrinsic to the form of tabernacle worship. By the time of Solomon, this was expanded through human imagination, and God still accepted it and chose to make it his dwelling.

An analogy can be made with works of art. The art piece might be thought of as the essence, and it's frame, site and time as the circumstance. But oftentimes, works of art cannot be separated from the location and context in which it is installed - it forms a unified whole. The same with worship. From scripture it may be deduced what elements are required, but it still requires human ingenuity to organize the elements into an appropriate liturgy, and to set an appropriate time for worship. They are not secondary to the elements of worship, but work to form a whole. In scripture, it does not seem that God rejected that ingenuity.


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## VictorBravo (Aug 11, 2010)

Nova said:


> Solomon would likely not have received any special revelation regarding the character of this building project - unless one argues that it was part of the divine wisdom that he had received earlier.


 
But 1 Chron 17, 22, and 28 indicate that David had special revelation regarding the plans of the project, the fact that he was not to build it but that his son, Solomon would, and that David in the end gave those plans to Solomon.

For example:


> And for the altar of incense refined gold by weight; and gold for the pattern of the chariot of the cherubims, that spread out their wings, and covered the ark of the covenant of the LORD.
> All this, said David, the LORD made me understand in writing by his hand upon me, even all the works of this pattern.



1 Ch 28:18-19

And 



> Then David gave to Solomon his son the pattern of the porch, and of the houses thereof, and of the treasuries thereof, and of the upper chambers thereof, and of the inner parlours thereof, and of the place of the mercy seat,
> And the pattern of all that he had by the spirit, of the courts of the house of the LORD, and of all the chambers round about, of the treasuries of the house of God, and of the treasuries of the dedicated things:
> Also for the courses of the priests and the Levites, and for all the work of the service of the house of the LORD, and for all the vessels of service in the house of the LORD.



1 Ch 28:11-13


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## Willem van Oranje (Aug 11, 2010)

P. F. Pugh said:


> How about the feasts of Purim and Hannukah, both of which Christ is recorded as having participated in?


 
There is a distinction to be made between civil feasts to commemorate an extraordinary providence, and religious ceremonies. Hence we may observe Thanksgiving and the 4th of July, but we ought not do so religiously.


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## Scott1 (Aug 11, 2010)

Nova said:


> Agreed on the above passages, thanks. There are certainly things which are forbidden to be done within the sphere of worship. Now, to clarify on "creativity." Are there any examples of acts of worship (either corporate or individual) that we were done without explicit command, but were acceptable to God.
> 
> Some examples:
> 1. The building of altar's to Yahweh by various OT individuals, eg. Jacob
> ...


 
God's Word is good.

It's amazing as I looked at the making of the Temple, it quickly became clear that God, through Nathan, gave very specific designs for how the Temple would be built. God was very specific about who would build it, the reasons why, and how it would be built. Very specific, like with the Tabernacle.

For example:



> 1 Chronicles 28
> 
> 1And David assembled all the princes of Israel, the princes of the tribes, and the captains of the companies that ministered to the king by course, and the captains over the thousands, and captains over the hundreds, and the stewards over all the substance and possession of the king, and of his sons, with the officers, and with the mighty men, and with all the valiant men, unto Jerusalem.
> 
> ...



The specificity, the intricacy God wanted in His Temple, and the detail of it in His Word is amazing.

Just amazing!


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## steadfast7 (Aug 11, 2010)

I concede some pattern may have been provided for the temple, but I still think that some of it was left to decision of the master builder. The details surrounding such a project are almost infiinite. Was nothing left to the decision of the artisan? Also, what of the other examples of worship - David's and Mary's etc..?

---------- Post added at 01:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:14 PM ----------

Even in our New Testament day, there is very little data on exactly how worship is to be done. We don't even have a set liturgy, or set time of worship.


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## Scott1 (Aug 11, 2010)

Nova said:


> I concede some pattern may have been provided for the temple, but I still think that some of it was left to decision of the master builder. The details surrounding such a project are almost infiinite. Was nothing left to the decision of the artisan? Also, what of the other examples of worship - David's and Mary's etc..?
> 
> ---------- Post added at 01:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:14 PM ----------
> 
> Even in our New Testament day, there is very little data on exactly how worship is to be done. We don't even have a set liturgy, or set time of worship.


 
This is an interesting study into God's Word- thanks for creating occasion to do that.

With regard to the plans for the Temple (only speaking to that), as with the Tabernacle- the plans were virtually "blueprints" for its design.

I think its more correct to say, with design of the Tabernacle, and the Temple, God was the master builder, and He wasn't leaving design or even details to the ones He told to build it.

E.g. (emphasis added)



> Exodus 28
> 
> 1And take thou unto thee Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office, even Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, Aaron's sons.
> 
> ...



As you delve more into what Scripture says about these places of worship, it becomes more clear how really clear God was about what He wanted- He didn't really leave it up to the imaginations of men.

Look how very specific the plans for the Temple were given to Ezekiel:



> Ezekiel 43
> 
> 13And these are the measures of the altar after the cubits: The cubit is a cubit and an hand breadth; even the bottom shall be a cubit, and the breadth a cubit, and the border thereof by the edge thereof round about shall be a span: and this shall be the higher place of the altar.
> 
> ...


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## steadfast7 (Aug 11, 2010)

Some more thoughts:


> 19All this, said David, the LORD made me understand in writing by his hand upon me, even all the works of this pattern.



Might this be analogous to plenary inspiration? If the dictation theory of inspiration is generally rejected, then it would open the possibility for some creative expression on David's part.

Also, are there any scriptural regulations concerning synagogue worship, or did the Jews 'invent' that themselves - at least in part? We know Jesus participated in synagogue worship.


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## Scott1 (Aug 11, 2010)

This may not be what you are getting at, but may help putting this in context.

Many people will define "worship" very very broadly, and often mean something like anything they (man) intends to be "worship" is worship. As long as man intends it to be worship, it must be (so man reasons).

So, to give an extreme example, a church in Texas had a mud wrestling competition on Sunday morning. I'm sure they were sincere, had prayer, gave a gospel presentation, even an alter call at the end.

In sense, we might say anything we do is "worship"- doing artwork, household chores, dancing- all these things can be done with a desire to express affection toward God. Nothing wrong with wanting all things to do that. But it's not the same thing as biblical worship, focused as it is on the Word (made flesh), and our Lord Spiritually present with grace (as in Lord's Supper). 

Those things are different than anything we could make or imagine- and substituting them for it is a form of idolatry- which God detests. We have examples of Him dealing quite severely with it in Scripture, e.g. When the people were singing to the golden calf when Moses came down from the mountain.

No doubt, they imagined they were worshipping- but it wasn't the worship God commanded of them.

The issue is whether something created (us) is given authority to imagine what we will, make that in our mind, and call it worship (of our Creator).

God was pretty specific about how He commands His creatures to worship them.

As self-centered creatures, that concept is lost in the fog of self, and the blindness of sin- in this generation it's common. And so, in others.


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## Philip (Aug 11, 2010)

Willem van Oranje said:


> P. F. Pugh said:
> 
> 
> > How about the feasts of Purim and Hannukah, both of which Christ is recorded as having participated in?
> ...


 
So why were they celebrated in the Temple and why did all Jews within a certain distance go up to Jerusalem to observe them, as Jesus and His disciples did, just like with Passover and the other feasts? I would think that Temple observance and pilgrimage are as religious as it gets---I mean according to you, that's like celebrating the 4th in Church!


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## steadfast7 (Aug 11, 2010)

Scott, I can appreciate your point, and I agree with it in the sense that where God commands a particular form of worship, it ought to be done without question. But there are also particular occasions when an "act" of worship, whether in gathered worship or not, is performed that does not transgress his commands, AND are still accepted. The RPW premise (and perhaps I'm wrong) is that only what is commanded is acceptable, and what falls outside is forbidden. Coming back to NT worship, I find the detail noticeably lacking in how gathered worship is prescribed. I'd be very interested in seeing it, but I don't know that it's possible to have a positive proof text for every element of the Reformed liturgy, the order of those elements, and the circumstances surrounding the performance of those elements.


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## Scott1 (Aug 11, 2010)

Comments below.



Nova said:


> Scott, I can appreciate your point, and I agree with it in the sense that where God commands a particular form of worship, it ought to be done without question.
> It seems what He commands is a general way which He wants to be worshiped. So, if He prescribes worshipping Him by reading His revealed Word, rightly heard, that is the form.
> 
> He does not reveal, you must read this part of my Word, or this amount, those are more incidents of the form prescribed.
> ...



All these last items you mention are also "incidents."

Now if they added a pantomime, interpretive dance, and skit about the sun- even though the persons doing them might sincerely believe and intend them to be second commandment supported worship, they would not be.

Another example might be God has prescribed one day in seven to "cease" and "make holy" in order to prioritize worship all the Day. Yet our God doesn't prescribe the time of the corporate worship service.

Many other things are allowed in the liberty of the Christian, but that's not worship.


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## Semper Fidelis (Aug 11, 2010)

Jeremiah's prophecy repeatedly condemns idolatry as being that which God "...did not command nor did it enter my mind...."

It's important to remember that principles are derived by good and necessary consequence from the Scriptures. It is axiomatic that man is idolatrous and he is naturally inclined to conceive of and worship God in ways that seem right to him but are idolatrous.

When we ask for specific texts in the NT that recapitulate ideas that are clearly expressed by God in the way He takes His worship seriously, we're really asking whether God's character has mutated. Does He still take false worship seriously? Has man escaped his proclivity to use his mind in ways that do not honor God? Does the daily renewing and transforming of the Word still keep men grounded in how God sees things as opposed to what seems right in his own eyes?

The man who trusts his creativity as inherently pleasing to God has not yet understood the nature of the heart of man.


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## Grimmson (Aug 11, 2010)

P. F. Pugh said:


> Willem van Oranje said:
> 
> 
> > P. F. Pugh said:
> ...


 
I would challenge the notion that in the Jewish mind celebrations like Hanukkah would fall under a civil feast distinction, outside the religious. If we look at Judaism today, we know this to be false because it is a minor Jewish religious festival based on their own festival calendar of celebrations. The question then is if we can extrapolate back the same idea to first century Judaism? First it is important to point out that their structure of separation between the civil and the religious is not the same as us. The two interacted with each other based from the Law of Moses. Therefore I think it would be proper to recognize that no distinction would be made in the first century Jewish mind between commemorating miraculously the rededication of the temple, by Judas Maccabaeus, from the religious and civil spheres. It would not be the same as the 4th of July and Thanksgiving because of the identity of the Temple with sin offerings for the Jewish people then and in earlier times. The Jews associate their identity closely to the Temple religiously, which is why the destruction of it in 70 A.D. marks the judgment of God and the reality that Jesus is the only way to salvation; because those shadows need to be put away by the people of God. Continuing in the practices would be a religious insult, and idolatry, against God and the once for all sacrifice of Jesus. 

I think the better analogy with respect to first century Jews would be like celebrating Christmas in our churches, because of the religious elements employed.


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## py3ak (Aug 11, 2010)

Nova said:


> I concede some pattern may have been provided for the temple, but I still think that some of it was left to decision of the master builder. The details surrounding such a project are almost infiinite. Was nothing left to the decision of the artisan? Also, what of the other examples of worship - David's and Mary's etc..
> 
> Even in our New Testament day, there is very little data on exactly how worship is to be done. We don't even have a set liturgy, or set time of worship.


 
That's a very generous concession given the explicit affirmations of the texts Vic provided to you! It specifically says that David had a pattern for the Temple construction and liturgy "by the Spirit" and you concede that something may have been provided? What more could you ask for to become convinced that something was provided? David learned in quite a painful way that God is to be sought after the due order, not however people feel like (1 Chronicles 15:13).

Again, why is it so important to you that human creativity be an acceptable offering to God?

To altars made before the law, consider that when Hebrews tells you that Abel offered in faith, we know that there was a word to base it on, because faith is always grounded on the word of God. Now that word wasn't inscripturated for us, but that doesn't mean it didn't exist.

Now in the specific instance of the Temple it was shown that your assumption was denied by Scripture. Demanding that the same thing be demonstrated in each additional case is simply a red herring; because Scripture doesn't function that way: it doesn't spell out detail on every single occasion. In the annals of David's reign, for instance, we don't read about any passover celebrations; but 2 Chronicles 35:18 lets you know that passovers were kept, though not with such magnificence as by Josiah. But you never read about another passover in his days: are we to assume that he had one big blowout passover and never obeyed that command again? Clearly such a procedure would be lunacy. Assuming creativity is in play any time worship is mentioned and the warrant for it isn't spelled out in the immediate context ignores the way Scripture narrates things. It's difficult to conceive of such a way of reading Scripture coming about in the absence of a definite agenda that calls for a specialized hermeneutic to acquire Biblical 'support'. People wouldn't adopt the same procedure in other instances - no one assumes that Seth was unmarried because his wife isn't mentioned; on the contrary, you interpret the fact that a son was born to him in accordance with the way he himself was born: Adam knew Eve his wife and she conceived, and that's what you take for granted in subsequent birth narrations unless there's a reason to think otherwise. So when we know that Abel offered by faith, and consequently had received some direction, we assume that it was adequate direction and that the same thing applies to subsequent instances, unless there is a reason to think otherwise.

On the question of Purim, the fact that the inspired book of Esther's structural purpose is to give its etiology seems to me like eminently sufficient grounds for supposing its adequate warrant from God. The fact that the warrant isn't made explicit is hardly surprising or troubling in a book that doesn't even mention God directly.


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## MW (Aug 11, 2010)

One point which needs to be considered is the progressive nature of revelation as it unfolds God's redemptive purpose. If there were creative moments in this process they can be accounted for on the basis that the OT pointed forward to the person and work of Christ and did so in redemptive stages. 

Reformed covenant theology teaches that worship under the OT pointed to Christ to come while worship under the NT proclaims that Christ has come. There is continuity in the fact that worship is still mediated by Christ. While the intricate and burdensome OT practice has been fulfilled by Christ and waxed old, the moral norm that worship must be regulated by God's own will remains a necessity. The commission which Christ gave His apostles makes this abundantly clear: "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen" (Matt. 28:20). Further, the apostles demonstrated their warrant for worship elements by appeal to the command of Christ: "For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you" (1 Cor. 11:23); "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord" (1 Cor. 14:37).

Given the reformed position on the cessation of extraordinary spiritual gifts it is obvious that any examples of creativity in the NT would not necessarily serve as a precedent for the ordinary gathering of Christ's people. It requires careful and prudent exegesis to learn what were the acceptable and normal actions which characterised these gatherings. At least since the time of Justin Martyr there has been a tradition of accountability which sought to explain and defend what was done when the Lord's people came together for worship. Since worship to the Lord is simultaneously a witness to the Lord's saving activity, the reformed churches have shared this sense of accountability and sought to demonstrate the evangelical nature of corporate worship. This has led to the conviction that there are "ordinary parts of religious worship" which centre and focus on the redemptive work of Christ. It indicates what is made plain in the Psalms, that worship is a matter of giving to the Lord what belongs to Him. Receptivity, not creativity, should be the characteristic feature of true worship.

Are there NT passages which explicitly repudiate creativity in worship? Yes. We are explicitly warned to be on our guard against those who introduce their own inventions into God's worship. Please prayerfully consider the following:

Matthew 15:3, 9, "Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your traditions?" "In vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

1 Corinthians 11:17-19, "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you." Compared with verse 23, "For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you."

Galatians 4:8-11, "Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain."

Philippians 3:2, 3, "Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh."

Colossians 2:18-22, "Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?"

1 Timothy 4:1-5, "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer."

Revelation 21:27, "And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life." 22:15, "For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."


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## steadfast7 (Aug 11, 2010)

Scott1 said:


> Many other things are allowed in the liberty of the Christian, but that's not worship.


 
Here's a question: Was David's offering of an ox every 6 steps and his subsequent twirling about in the ephod considered worship? Would it have been appropriate to tap him on the shoulder after his performance and say, "whatever that was, you were free to do that, but it wasn't worship" ?

I still sense the tendency to bifurcate the form of worship from the 'incident' (or circumstance, etc), as if only one aspect produced the actual worship act. This alludes back to Dr. Gonzales' point that there appears a double standard in view. If in the OT, the form and the method were prescribed in detail (and I'm ready to agree wholeheartedly), which were only pointers to Christ, why the noticeable lack of detail in worship procedure now that Christ has already come? That's really the question I'm getting at -


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## MW (Aug 11, 2010)

Nova said:


> If in the OT, the form and the method were prescribed in detail (and I'm ready to agree wholeheartedly), which were only pointers to Christ, why the noticeable lack of detail in worship procedure now that Christ has already come? That's really the question I'm getting at -


 
It points to the simplicity of NT worship; it does not provide liberty to fill in the blanks and create parallels to the OT ritual.


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## littlepeople (Aug 12, 2010)

Here is perhaps another iron in the fire from Hebrews 8: "Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “SEE,” He says, “THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN.”

To what degree could Moses be creative, and the writer of Hebrews still claim that the elements of the tabernacle were indeed COPIES of the heavenly things?


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## steadfast7 (Aug 12, 2010)

Good point Brandon. 

Rev. Winzer, regarding the simplicity of NT worship, is it that the OT points to it directly, or have we inferred it from New Testament silence?


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## Scott1 (Aug 12, 2010)

Nova said:


> Scott1 said:
> 
> 
> > Many other things are allowed in the liberty of the Christian, but that's not worship.
> ...


 
Where exactly is the passage you referring to in Scripture about the ox and ephod?

It sounds like part of the specific (Old Testament) system of sacrifices- are you contending David imagined from his own head the idea of sacrificing an ox? Are you talking about the incident of sex steps?

Can you clarify exactly what point of Dr. Gonzales' you are referring to- perhaps one on another thread?

There is another thread now, if I understand that correctly, that is examining a question of why there seems to be very specific prescription of worship (regulative principle), yet so much 'liberty' in other areas- is that what you are referring to?

Just to clarify, you mention lack of New Testament worship "procedure"- what exactly do you mean by that?

Are we again talking about the "incidents" of worship, or are we talking about substance? (If the latter,please give an example).


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## steadfast7 (Aug 12, 2010)

Hi Scott,
apologies for the confusion.

Here's the scripture reference.
[BIBLE]2 Sam 6:12-15[/BIBLE]

I would say this was more than a private act of worship, rather it can considered a kind of public worship, as it says in v.15, "So David, *and all the house of Israel* ..." We know that David considered it worshipped because he responds to his embarrassed wife [BIBLE]2 Sam 6:21[/BIBLE]. And we also know that God was pleased with David and not with Michal in that He cursed Michal's womb for her words. In all of this, I don't see David worshipping according to explicit scriptural commands. By the way, if the RPW seeks to be informed by scripture, why is David's example of dancing before the Lord rejected?



> There is another thread now, if I understand that correctly, that is examining a question of why there seems to be very specific prescription of worship (regulative principle), yet so much 'liberty' in other areas- is that what you are referring to?


 Yes, that's the one! And the fact that God even gave blueprints for his temple design shows that the regulative principle (at least in the OT) extended beyond prescribing the elements of worship to prescribing _everything_ related to worship. If that principle is to be carried over, then we should consider that the peripheral aspects of worship, like church design, worship order, song choice, etc. as equally integral to worship.



> Just to clarify, you mention lack of New Testament worship "procedure"- what exactly do you mean by that?


 I mean that the NT is not nearly as detailed as to the precise play by play of gathered worship that we find in the Law. There are strict guidelines on certain matters (like Lord's supper, use of spiritual gifts), but no set liturgy, no appointed times (except Sunday). It seems in light of the lack of explicit NT data to work with, there will inevitably be some "crafting" of the worship service, where reason and creativity must come into play. 



> Are we again talking about the "incidents" of worship, or are we talking about substance? (If the latter,please give an example).


 I'm not quite sure on the terminology myself, I'm guessing 'incident' refers to things like order of worship, time of the service, specific passage to be preached, etc? And substance: Lord's supper, preaching, song, etc.


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## Scott1 (Aug 12, 2010)

I and II Samuel are very interesting sections of Scripture, and rich with truth about sin, redemption, and God's greater plan for all mankind through David's family line.

In context, understand what is happening. Generally, the passages here are narrative (as in giving an account), rather than "didache" (doctrine). Part of understanding is taking the text on its own terms as primarily telling a story here, not relating doctrine. (It's more complicated than that, but that's helpful for context).

Around Chapter 6 what is happening is God is stopping King David from building the Temple in Jerusalem.

King David had, was doing, and would be doing many wrong things in the sight of the Lord.

Michal was covetous (jealous) because she wanted her father Saul to be King, and resented David. So there is all kinds of intrigue going on "within the camp"- even of the covenant community of Israel!

This is not, in the main, a place where God is instructing His people on worship.

Exodus, for example, is a place where God gives very specific instructions about worship- and about the ark particularly, to be followed, in some cases upon pain of death.




Nova said:


> Hi Scott,
> apologies for the confusion.
> 
> Here's the scripture reference.
> ...


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## Scott1 (Aug 12, 2010)

The Confession sets out a regulative principle, from the beginning, with relation to Scripture, and the revealed will of God:



> Westminster Confession of Faith
> 
> Chapter I
> Of the Holy Scripture
> ...


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## VictorBravo (Aug 12, 2010)

Nova, you started out the thread asking this:



> Are there any explicit scripture passages repudiating creativity in worship?



The answers you sought came back unequivocally. Yes, there are explicit scriptures addressing the question.

Then you shifted to asserting that Solomon made up aspects of OT worship. This was shown to be wrong.

Now the topic shifts again to the idea that, because the NT is says so little about worship, then the regulative principle is not necessarily supported. Matthew Winzer's comment about progressive revelation should have set that notion straight. 

To be clear, God was exhaustively precise regarding worship in the OT. All the ceremonies and rituals had a purpose: they pointed to Christ, the need for sacrificial redemption, the fact that no man can atone for his own sins, and much more.

Once Christ accomplished his work, the rituals were no longer needed because Christ fulfilled all that they pointed to. That is what is meant by the simplicity of worship. At this point, we remember Christ's work and glorify God by that rememberance.

In a nutshell, that is what the regulative principle is about. Throughout all time, God regulated his worship--strictly. After Christ completed his work on Earth, God did away with the extensive protocol, but he didn't throw out the principle. 

Moderation

I must warn you that it looks like you are drifting toward advocating against the RPW. We allow sincere questions here, but do not allow arguments contrary to the confessions.


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## steadfast7 (Aug 12, 2010)

thanks for the moderation and the patience in helping me figure this out. Having not come from an RPW background, this is still new, and I'm trying to make sense of it light of scripture first.
I don't mind dropping it and doing my own reading. God bless.


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## VictorBravo (Aug 12, 2010)

That is commendable, Nova. Please feel free to search the forum on threads involving the RPW. There are a lot of resources discussed on the board.


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## MW (Aug 12, 2010)

Nova said:


> Rev. Winzer, regarding the simplicity of NT worship, is it that the OT points to it directly, or have we inferred it from New Testament silence?


 
We infer the simplicity of NT worship from (1.) NT teaching concerning the laying aside of OT ceremonies, (2.) the spiritual nature of NT worship, and (3.) the lack of elaborate and and intricate commandment in the NT.

In Acts 15:10, Peter argues, "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" Creating new ways to worship God imposes a burden on the Christian life from which Christ has set His people free. Any liberty afforded men to add to the worship of God cannot therefore be regarded as Christian liberty.


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