# Question about Lordship Salvation



## Toasty (Mar 17, 2014)

Does Lordship Salvation teach that even though placing one's faith in Christ, repenting of sin, submitting to God's authority, and surrendering one's life to Christ take place at the moment of conversion, faith is the sole means that justification is received?


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## Matthew1344 (Mar 17, 2014)

We have salvation because we have been declared "not guilty" in the courtroom of Heaven. I think this happens at the moment of conversion because of the verses in the bible that says that "Abraham believed and it was counted to him a righteousness". His being declared perfect was by faith. 

Now I think repenting, submitting, surrendering are fruit of faith. But at the same time I feel like faith is all those things. 

Now I have this feeling like someone is about to roast my theology, and that is completely fine, I love learning.... I just ask for you to please be gentle


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## Kiffin (Mar 17, 2014)

Toasty said:


> Does Lordship Salvation teach that even though placing one's faith in Christ, repenting of sin, submitting to God's authority, and surrendering one's life to Christ take place at the moment of conversion, faith is the sole means that justification is received?



Lordship Salvation highlights the biblical teaching of the interconnectedness between justification and sanctification; there is no such thing as being justified and not being sanctified. So, in other words, you not "repenting of sin, submitting to God's authority, and surrendering one's life to Christ" is evidence of you not being regenerated.


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## jwithnell (Mar 17, 2014)

And the root of all this is that God has regenerated you so that you can have faith ....

I'm not familiar with the term "Lordship Salvation" but I suspect it is a reaction to the poor theology of groups like Campus Crusade that tried to teach you could make a "decision for Christ" then sometime later make him "Lord of your life."


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## Sherwin L. (Mar 17, 2014)

Kiffin said:


> Toasty said:
> 
> 
> > Does Lordship Salvation teach that even though placing one's faith in Christ, repenting of sin, submitting to God's authority, and surrendering one's life to Christ take place at the moment of conversion, faith is the sole means that justification is received?
> ...


Correct. Salvation is often conflated with solely justification in evangelical circles. In reality, salvation encompasses justification, regeneration, repentance, sanctification-- all the way to glorification.


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## Toasty (Mar 18, 2014)

Kiffin said:


> Toasty said:
> 
> 
> > Does Lordship Salvation teach that even though placing one's faith in Christ, repenting of sin, submitting to God's authority, and surrendering one's life to Christ take place at the moment of conversion, faith is the sole means that justification is received?
> ...



I agree. God sanctifies those whom He justifies. Regeneration has effects like repentance and submitting to God's authority.


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## Semper Fidelis (Mar 18, 2014)

These sort of controversies arise for bigger reasons than they appear on the surface and giving it a name "Lordship Salvation" doesn't guarantee that the root issue is solved. Lordship salvation is a reaction, typically, to a bad anthropology (nature of man) and what a man does with his "free will".

Most evangelicals talk about faith in Christ as a decision one makes by the unaided power of the human will. The question then boils down to the amount of content the person has to agree to in order to be "saved". Some will teach that a man merely needs to accept Jesus as Savior - that is, he agrees that he needs Christ to save him. Teachers of this will go on to say that it's obviously best that the person go all the way and accept Jesus as Lord too but this additional content is not necessary for a person to be saved. He only needs to exercise his unaided will to the point of recognizing his need for Jesus as Savior.

The problem I have is that it is a semi-Pelagian (or even Pelagian) view of the Fall and the need for grace. Faith is not something that the unaided will of man is capable of. A "Lordship" salvation that is rooted in semi- or full Pelagianism may embrace the idea that salvation involves more than simply seeing Jesus as a Savior but the idea that it is just a matter of the will going "all the way" in accepting Him as Savior and Lord is not the Biblical notion.

I guess what I'm driving at is that I'm not comfortable in defining my position on the basis of an argument that typically rests on shaky ground to begin with. I'm not going to defend the idea that a person has to accept Jesus as Lord too when their whole thought process is bound up in an un-Biblical view of the nature of man and how Christ, as the second Adam, redeems that nature. There's no point in the argument when their foundational view of the Fall is defective.


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## arapahoepark (Mar 18, 2014)

Lordship Salvation is usually discussed or argued among semi-pelagian, dispensational evangelicals. A few years ago I believed in the rapture and all that stuff and that's where I encountered it. The Rapture Forums where I was at vehemently opposed such a notion taking justification by faith alone to an extreme, saying repentance should only consist of a changing one's mind about sin (like "Oh maybe this is bad after all) while not necessarily showing that their life is turned around. Their definition of faith basically consists of some sort of historical assent: "Yes I believe Jesus lived," without the aspect of trust and other things that define real faith. It is a historical assent that doesn't change your life like the notion we all believe Alexander the Great existed, but how does that change anything in our lives?

I also hear of many who oppose Lordship Salvation, placing Jesus as Lord as a second event, analogous to Pentecostals' second blessing. They would talk about their testimonies (or write them) saying they believed in and accepted Jesus at such and such an age and later at such and such an age they "would make Jesus Lord."

I agree with Rich; I, too, don't want to define my position from their point of view because I/we have a different grid on interpretation. This Lordship salvation originated from dispensationalism and Dallas seminary like Zane Hodges, MacArthur put out a few books on since he advocates Lordship salvation so to speak. I think it is far more Biblical but, it has been defined over against this Free Grace theology, so it is dubbed.


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## Toasty (Mar 18, 2014)

jwithnell said:


> And the root of all this is that God has regenerated you so that you can have faith ....
> 
> I'm not familiar with the term "Lordship Salvation" but I suspect it is a reaction to the poor theology of groups like Campus Crusade that tried to teach you could make a "decision for Christ" then sometime later make him "Lord of your life."



The term "Lordship Salvation" has to do with the idea that placing one's faith in Christ and submitting to God's authority take place at the same time. 

Some people believe that one can have in faith in Christ without there being any repentance and Lordship Salvation was a reaction to this kind of thinking.


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## Kiffin (Mar 18, 2014)

Yes, "Lordship Salvation" is used to describe salvation in contrast to easy-believism; a phenomenon prevalent in evangelical circles and those influenced and "saved" through Billy Graham Crusades. Most people here on the PB don't even use the terminology.


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## Jack K (Mar 18, 2014)

Toasty said:


> Does Lordship Salvation teach that even though placing one's faith in Christ, repenting of sin, submitting to God's authority, and surrendering one's life to Christ take place at the moment of conversion, faith is the sole means that justification is received?



To try to respond to your question...

When MacArthur first took on the task of refuting easy-believism by insisting on the lordship of Christ in a true believer's life, he used language that made it sound like he might be advocating salvation by faith _plus obedience_. Some good Reformed people challenged him on this, and my understanding (someone correct me if necessary) is that MacArthur responded to the constructive criticism by reframing his argument to more clearly affirm justification by faith.

So when you ask what "Lordship Salvation" teaches, you have to first define what part of that debate you're talking about. MacArthur at the start? MacArthur later on? Reformed critics who generally agreed with MacArthur's rebuke of easy-believism but thought he went too far? They aren't the same. Furthermore, a simple yes/no answer to your question is insufficient. Rather, we need to explain what we mean by _sola fide_, salvation by faith alone.

Personally, I like to explain that faith in Christ means faith in the _whole person_ of Christ. One can't just have faith in Christ as Priest (who dies for our sin and pleads for us). Christ is also our Prophet and King (whom we learn from and obey, among other things). So faith that doesn't treat Christ as Lord is no faith at all—at least not faith in the _whole person_ of Christ as he is revealed in the Scriptures. This means that repentance is an inseparable part of the life of faith... yet it is still all by faith in Christ, not self-effort. This way of thinking about it puts the focus on Christ rather than on what we have done.

I don't know if that approach is helpful for everyone, but it seems helpful to me. The Lordship Salvation discussion is not an easy one to follow. But Reformed believers affirm salvation (not only justification, but ALL of salvation) by faith alone, while still declaring that Christ must be Lord of a believer's life.


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## Toasty (Mar 24, 2014)

Jack K said:


> Toasty said:
> 
> 
> > Does Lordship Salvation teach that even though placing one's faith in Christ, repenting of sin, submitting to God's authority, and surrendering one's life to Christ take place at the moment of conversion, faith is the sole means that justification is received?
> ...




I was thinking of what Lordship Salvation proponents like MacArthur teach now. 

My understanding of _sola fide_ is that relying on Jesus to save you from your sins is the sole means that you receive salvation. Faith is not the cause of our salvation. Faith does not make you deserve salvation. Faith is not the basis upon which God saves you.

I agree that faith in Christ is faith in the whole person of Christ.

Some people think that when MacArthur talks about repentance or yielding to Christ's authority, they think he is saying that changing one's conduct is the means by which one receives justification.


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