# "I Surrender All": A Biblical Perspective



## matthew11v25 (Mar 1, 2005)

*\"I Surrender All\": A Biblical Perspective*

All my life as I have been in non-reformed churches, this methodist/revival hymn has been sung. In light of reformed doctrine some of the lyrics seem synergistic:

"All to Jesus I surrender
All to Him I freely give
I will ever love and trust Him
In His presence daily live

I surrender all
I surrender all
All to Thee my blessed Savior
I surrender all"


Any thoughts?

[Edited on 3-1-2005 by matthew11v25]


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## turmeric (Mar 1, 2005)

Meg's 90millionth post on Perfectionism 

This is a relic of the revivalist approach. I have some questions;

How in #$** can I surrender ALL to Jesus when I don't want to? Isn't that the problem?

Wouldn't that make me better than others who haven't done something so supererogatory, (assuming that I could)?


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## Puritanhead (Mar 1, 2005)

How is it synergistic? I know some hymns are more overtly Arminian, but sometimes we Calvinists can split hairs to much about the hymns In my humble opinion. Hey I've been there and done that.

With a renewed heart, God changes our nature, and he works his progressive work of santification in our hearts.... our goal should be to surrender all, and make God not only our savior but Lord of our life in our conduct, our day to day lives, and in how we live out the Word. So, what's wrong with "I surrender all...."


[Edited on 3-1-2005 by Puritanhead]


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## pastorway (Mar 1, 2005)

irresistible Grace demonstrates that we have indeed freely surrendered all to Jesus! God changes us, calls us to life, gives us a new heart, a new nature, He goves us repantance and faith by grace, and as a result we willingly and freely repent and believe.

One who does not willingly surrender to Christ can not be saved.

Phillip


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## matthew11v25 (Mar 1, 2005)

Thanks for the replies.


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## Larry Hughes (Mar 1, 2005)

Matthew,

My two bits.

As a Christian what happens the next time you, and you will, willfully sin? Is your heart pure? Do you now love God with all your heart, mind, soul perfectly without error and your neighbor as yourself? I´m not saying this is not to be the desired goal of a Christian but in actuality how do we experience it - which is one of the ways tunes like this are sung. Romans 7 is the Christian. And if one says one doesn´t sin then one is sinning because the Apostle John says the truth is not in you if you believe this about yourself.

Surrendering all, which this tune may or may not capture, also means surrendering self-righteousness. There is a gracious reason we are not perfected in this life, because the pride from such would over-whelm such a "œsuper saint" as to make him/her the greatest of sinners and self-righteous. 

We do indeed surrender all to Christ in the sense of salvation/justification which in turn sanctification grows out from. But we do not surrender all in the sense of sinlessness or even committing "œaccidental" sins (a ridiculous Wesleyan idea) as opposed to "œwillful" sins. We are now in a position of battling the flesh as opposed to the flesh ruling without opposition. Does one surrender all when a guy cuts one off in traffic and one becomes angry at him, anger such that Jesus says is equivalent in the eyes of God to murder? 

The Christian is pitched toward growth in grace never achieving or even coming close to its fullness in this life. The testimony of the saints throughout history reveals this very clearly. J. Edwards for example, captures it nicely, when he observed that as he lived longer and longer in this life all he could say about himself and his sin in summation was that his sin appeared increasingly as infinite upon infinite. Apart from faith and grace we daily add to our debt.

One does not "œmake" Jesus Savior and Lord of their, He is Savior and Lord of their life "“ looking to Him for salvation by grace IS looking to Him as Lord for one is helpless to save one´s self and needs nothing less than the LORD God to save them.

Lastly, we do not surrender all to purchase grace which is far too often the case in which this tune is sung. We do not go to Christ Jesus and in essence say, "œSee Lord, I´ve surrendered all, now may I have what I´ve purchased by my surrender."

lh


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## matthew11v25 (Mar 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Larry Hughes_
> Lastly, we do not surrender all to purchase grace which is far too often the case in which this tune is sung. We do not go to Christ Jesus and in essence say, "œSee Lord, I´ve surrendered all, now may I have what I´ve purchased by my surrender."



Larry,

thanks for your post. So you like this song? please correct me if I am wrong... just trying to clarify.


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## Mrs.SolaFide (Mar 1, 2005)

[quote

Lastly, we do not surrender all to purchase grace which is far too often the case in which this tune is sung. We do not go to Christ Jesus and in essence say, "œSee Lord, I´ve surrendered all, now may I have what I´ve purchased by my surrender."

lh [/quote]

I completely agree. This is the way I've heard it sung in every Arminian church I've been in. It takes on a self-righteous tone - not to mention that it is quite anthropocentric & often sounds as though it is praising man instead of worshipping God.


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## heartoflesh (Mar 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by MissSolaFide_
> [quote
> 
> Lastly, we do not surrender all to purchase grace which is far too often the case in which this tune is sung. We do not go to Christ Jesus and in essence say, "œSee Lord, I´ve surrendered all, now may I have what I´ve purchased by my surrender."
> ...



I completely agree. This is the way I've heard it sung in every Arminian church I've been in. It takes on a self-righteous tone - not to mention that it is quite anthropocentric & often sounds as though it is praising man instead of worshipping God. [/quote]

What "way" was it being sung? Or better yet, how is it possible to sing in such a way as to reveal your deeper theological beliefs?

On the other hand, there's a modern worship song we used to sing......."Every Move I Make, I Make In You", and I used to think, "I bet I'm the only one who is seriously considering what these words really mean"--and I was probably right!

Rick

[Edited on 3-1-2005 by Rick Larson]


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## matthew11v25 (Mar 1, 2005)

[/quote]
On the other hand, there's a modern worship song we used to sing......."Every Move I Make, I Make In You", and I used to think, "I bet I'm the only one who is seriously considering what these words really mean"--and I was probably right!
Rick
[Edited on 3-1-2005 by Rick Larson] [/quote]

I can relate. We sing this song at my current church sometimes ...including the "La La La" part.  I could do the hand motions in my sleep....


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## heartoflesh (Mar 1, 2005)

Ah yes!! 

La La la-la-la-la La La la-la-la-la


It's all coming back to me now!


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## matthew11v25 (Mar 1, 2005)

Hey Rick,

Ever hear of this song (I used to hear it at youth camps/groups, etc)...

"If I had a little box
to put my Jesus in. 
I would take him out 
and kiss kiss kiss (pretending to kiss a little Jesus)
and put him back again"
AND
"If I had a little box 
to put the Devil in
I would take him out 
and smash his face (pretending to punch Satan)
and put him back again"

Every time I hear it....

[Edited on 3-1-2005 by matthew11v25]


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## heartoflesh (Mar 1, 2005)

Can't say I've heard that one, but that really ranks up there with some of the best!

If I were to name my current "worst worship song at my church" it would be that horrible Michael W. Smith song..."You took the fall and thought of me above all"

All I can say is...... NOT!


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## matthew11v25 (Mar 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Rick Larson_
> 
> horrible Michael W. Smith song..."You took the fall and thought of me above all"
> All I can say is...... NOT!


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## Puritanhead (Mar 1, 2005)

This methodist/revival hymn has been sung. In light of reformed doctrine some of the lyrics seem synergistic:

Amazing free will! How sweet the sound
That saved a Wesleyan like me.
I once was lost, but I found my way,
Was blind, but I open'd my eyes.

'Twas free will that taught my heart to fear,
And free will my fears relieved.
How precious did that free will appear
The hour I first believed.
........


Okay, I'm going to shut up now, least I descend into blasphemy.


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## Larry Hughes (Mar 1, 2005)

Matthew,

Sorry about the confusion. It depends on the context it is used in. If arminian or peitist type preaching fronted it I didn't like it because the implication was clear, but if good sovereign grace preaching fronted it I liked it.

So, I'd say context dictates this one for me personally.

Rick,

Same answer, context. If it is sung as a will pushing, emotion driven alter call song then it can reveal a different theological thrust. Just like arminians taking certain scriptures wrongly, tainting it with a man-centered view of salvation then delivering it. 

Or if the sermon has just been a sermon on moralism, moralizing Scripture rather than preaching Christ, then the following song usually takes on that flavor. Unless the song is sufficiently strong in its language to convey otherwise in spite of the preaching. A Mighty Fortress Is Our God is usually not a highly sung song in many churches. There's a reason. Does that help?

ldh

[Edited on 3-2-2005 by Larry Hughes]


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## matthew11v25 (Mar 1, 2005)

Thanks Larry


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## Arch2k (Mar 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by MissSolaFide_
> [quote
> 
> Lastly, we do not surrender all to purchase grace which is far too often the case in which this tune is sung. We do not go to Christ Jesus and in essence say, "œSee Lord, I´ve surrendered all, now may I have what I´ve purchased by my surrender."
> ...



I completely agree. This is the way I've heard it sung in every Arminian church I've been in. It takes on a self-righteous tone - not to mention that it is quite anthropocentric & often sounds as though it is praising man instead of worshipping God. [/quote]

I have issues with this song. Lately, I have been thinking about the TRUTH that many contemporary songs (all songs for that matter) convey. Another way of stating it is "What truth does this song portray?" We are to worship God in Spirit and in _truth_. 

As a person who believes in the depravity of our souls and hearts, it is hard for me to sing about 1st, me surrendering ALL, when I know that I won't in reality (although I should and have the obligation to). 2nd, this song does seem to be anthropocentric in nature. Most worship songs today sing about me, me, me. What I will do for God, instead of what God has done for me! 

For example,
I will worship, with all of my heart...
I will praise you, with all of my strength.
I will lift up, my eyes to your throne...
I will worship, worship you alone.
I will give you all my worship, I will give you all my praise, etc. etc. 

See a pattern?

I'm not condemning all uses of the word "I" in worship (David uses some of these phrases in the Psalms), but it is often overdone to the point that we are worshipping ourselves instead of God! Jeremiah Burroughs defined worship as any "thoughts about God." It seems that these songs are a dangerous way of thinking about ourselves rather than thinking of God.


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## turmeric (Mar 1, 2005)

> _ I could do the hand motions in my sleep.... _


_

Hmmm...every move I make....in yr sleep? Is *that* the "exchanged life"?_


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## heartoflesh (Mar 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Larry Hughes_
> A Mighty Fortress Is Our God is usually not a highly sung song in many churches. There's a reason.



What an awesome hymn! That one ranks second in my book only to "Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing", a great antedote to Arminianism:


Come, Thou Fount of every blessing,
Tune my heart to sing Thy grace;
Streams of mercy, never ceasing,
Call for songs of loudest praise.
Teach me some melodious sonnet,
Sung by flaming tongues above.
Praise the mount! I´m fixed upon it,
Mount of Thy redeeming love.

Here I raise my Ebenezer;
Here by Thy great help I´ve come;
And I hope, by Thy good pleasure,
Safely to arrive at home.
Jesus sought me when a stranger,
Wandering from the fold of God;
He, to rescue me from danger,
Interposed His precious blood.

O to grace how great a debtor
Daily I´m constrained to be!
Let Thy goodness, like a fetter,
Bind my wandering heart to Thee.
Prone to wander, Lord, I feel it,
Prone to leave the God I love;
Here´s my heart, O take and seal it,
Seal it for Thy courts above.

O that day when freed from sinning,
I shall see Thy lovely face;
Clothed then in blood washed linen
How I´ll sing Thy sovereign grace;
Come, my Lord, no longer tarry,
Take my ransomed soul away;
Send thine angels now to carry
Me to realms of endless day.


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## Arch2k (Mar 1, 2005)

I also like Augustus Toplady's "Rock of Ages"

Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee;
Let the water and the blood,
From Thy wounded side which flowed,
Be of sin the double cure,
Save from wrath and make me pure. 

Not the labor of my hands
Can fulfill Thy law´s demands;
Could my zeal no respite know,
Could my tears forever flow,
All for sin could not atone;
Thou must save, and Thou alone.

Nothing in my hand I bring,
Simply to Thy cross I cling;
Naked, come to Thee for dress;
Helpless, look to Thee for grace;
Foul, I to the fountain fly;
Wash me, Savior, or I die. 

While I draw this fleeting breath,
When my eyes shall close in death,
When I rise to worlds unknown,
And behold Thee on Thy throne,
Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee.


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## turmeric (Mar 2, 2005)

I don't know the title, it's by Horatius Bonar

Thy works, not mine, O Christ
speak gladness to this heart.
They say that all is done,
they bid my fear depart.

Thy pains, not mine, O Christ
upon the shameful tree,
have paid the Law's full price
and purchased peace for me.

Thy Cross, not mine, O Christ
has borne the awful load
of sin which none in Heaven
or earth could bear but God.

Thy righteousness, O Christ
alone can cover me.
No righteousness avails
save that which comes from Thee.

To whom save Thee
Who can alone
for sin atone
Lord, shall I flee?


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## matthew11v25 (Mar 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by turmeric_
> I don't know the title, it's by Horatius Bonar
> 
> Thy works, not mine, O Christ
> ...



"THY WAY, NOT MINE, O LORD" I believe is the title


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## Larry Hughes (Mar 2, 2005)

> Quote:
> Quote:
> Originally posted by MissSolaFide[quoteLastly, we do not surrender all to purchase grace which is far too often the case in which this tune is sung. We do not go to Christ Jesus and in essence say, "œSee Lord, I´ve surrendered all, now may I have what I´ve purchased by my surrender."lh
> I completely agree. This is the way I've heard it sung in every Arminian church I've been in. It takes on a self-righteous tone - not to mention that it is quite anthropocentric & often sounds as though it is praising man instead of worshipping God.
> ...



I cannot disagree at all with that. Every time I hear the "œI´s" in many of those songs I think to myself, "œAre you lying to God again about what you are going to do for Him?" They are man centered and tend toward the Theology of Glory type of thinking. It is far sweeter and worshipping toward God to sing as someone posted say "œRock of Ages" by Toplady. I love that line, "œLet the water and the blood from Thy wounded side which flowed "“ be of sin a double cure "“ safe from wrath and make me pure". There is a ton of theology in that one line.

When I use to hear "œI surrender all" I can remember every time thinking to myself while singing, "œEither I´m such a greater sinner than these singing or these people are fooling themselves if they think they have really surrendered ALL for they yet don´t understand the core of sin". Sometimes it makes one want to say with Paul, "œDo you not know what the Law says!" 

It becomes similar to the end alter call type statements such as, "œHave you given ALL your heart to Jesus" or "œHave you repented of ALL your sins"¦" We do indeed repent and turn but that is not what that later statement implies or means. It is interesting to see how the Devil´s writings state this. In the Book of Mormon in Moroni (can´t recall the verse # now) it states, "œIf you have repented of all yours sins, then is my grace sufficient for thee". That is very revealing to me coming from one of the Devil´s religions. Why? Because too many, too many are preaching this very thing today and don´t even realize it. Especially when they end the sermon this way. The sermon could be otherwise good but when this Christ obscuring blanket is cast upon at the end all else is confused at best and lost at worst. Tack on a song like "œI surrender all" at the end of such a so called "œcall" and you have a works based salvation worse than any other. How does one know "œALL" is given? As Michael Horton pointed out once when he was growing up in a pietistic type church; it would have been better to point me to saving myself by means of the 10 commandments for at least I could narrow them down to a manageable number "“ 10, rather than an infinite unknown like "œall".

For some reason today the church has an aversion of the wounded sinner coming to Christ and needing Him entirely. Beware of the peitist!

ldh


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## Mrs.SolaFide (Mar 2, 2005)

What "way" was it being sung? Or better yet, how is it possible to sing in such a way as to reveal your deeper theological beliefs?


[Edited on 3-1-2005 by Rick Larson] [/quote]

 I meant that the preaching/prayer throughout the service set the song up to be interpreted in that way. As far as singing "in such a way as to reveal your deeper theological beliefs", that seems to be part of the issue we're trying to address. When you're singing (or performing any other act of worship) to your God (who IS Truth), you'd better be singing truth. If a song contradicts what I know to be true, I prefer not to utter it. THAT is how I sing in such a way as to reveal my deeper theological beliefs.

In my humble opinion, A Mighty Frotress is #1!!!

Erin

[Edited on 3-2-2005 by MissSolaFide]


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## Larry Hughes (Mar 9, 2005)

I thought this quote fit this post, listen to this old true gospel warrior:

"Christian evangelism does not consist merely in a man´s going about the world saying, "œLook at me, what a wonderful experience I have, how happy I am, what wonderful Christian virtues I exhibit; you can all be as good and happy as I am if you will just make a complete surrender of your wills in obedience t what I say." That is what many religious workers seem to think that evangelism is"¦But they are wrong. Men are not saved by the exhibition of our glorious Christian virtues; they are not saved by the contagion of our experiences. We cannot be the instruments of God in saving them if we preach to them thus only ourselves. Nay, we must preach to them the Lord Jesus Christ; for it is only through the gospel which sets him forth that they can be saved. If you want health for your souls, and if you want to be the instruments of bringing health to others, do not turn your gaze forever within, as though you could find Christ there. Nay, turn your gaze away from your own miserable experiences, away from your own sin, to the Lord Jesus Christ as he is offered to us in the gospel. It is the same old story, my friends-the same old story of the natural man. Men are trying today, as they have always been trying, to save themselves-to save themselves by their own act of surrender, by the excellence of their own faith, by mystic experiences of their own lives. But it is all in vain. Not that way is peace with God to be obtained. It is obtained only in the old, old way--by attention to something that was done once for all long ago, and by acceptance of the living Savior who there, once for all, brought redemption for our sin. Oh, that men would turn for salvation from their own experience to the cross of Christ; oh, that they would turn form the phenomena of religion to the living God!"

-J. Gresham Machen


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## turmeric (Mar 9, 2005)

Would someone, maybe Larry, help me think through this issue - you know what these "surrendered" people would say - that they're not saying you can be saved by works, that they're not actually saying you can be perfect, etc. Now I understand what you're saying, really I do, by experience, no less. But when you start to explain it to them, they say you're making ad homs, they believe the gospel, etc. So I have to abandon their teaching because it's error, but I can't prove it to anyone. It almost seems to come down to "whatever works for you" and I know that isn't right. It seems unloving to suggest that it's another gospel, and I don't want to think they're unsaved, but in my life it seems like another gospel. Am I weird? I've been struggling with this for a year.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Mar 9, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Larry Hughes_
> I thought this quote fit this post, listen to this old true gospel warrior:
> 
> "Christian evangelism does not consist merely in a man´s going about the world saying, "œLook at me, what a wonderful experience I have, how happy I am, what wonderful Christian virtues I exhibit; you can all be as good and happy as I am if you will just make a complete surrender of your wills in obedience t what I say." That is what many religious workers seem to think that evangelism is"¦But they are wrong. Men are not saved by the exhibition of our glorious Christian virtues; they are not saved by the contagion of our experiences. We cannot be the instruments of God in saving them if we preach to them thus only ourselves. Nay, we must preach to them the Lord Jesus Christ; for it is only through the gospel which sets him forth that they can be saved. If you want health for your souls, and if you want to be the instruments of bringing health to others, do not turn your gaze forever within, as though you could find Christ there. Nay, turn your gaze away from your own miserable experiences, away from your own sin, to the Lord Jesus Christ as he is offered to us in the gospel. It is the same old story, my friends-the same old story of the natural man. Men are trying today, as they have always been trying, to save themselves-to save themselves by their own act of surrender, by the excellence of their own faith, by mystic experiences of their own lives. But it is all in vain. Not that way is peace with God to be obtained. It is obtained only in the old, old way--by attention to something that was done once for all long ago, and by acceptance of the living Savior who there, once for all, brought redemption for our sin. Oh, that men would turn for salvation from their own experience to the cross of Christ; oh, that they would turn form the phenomena of religion to the living God!"
> ...



 What an excellent quote!


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## Larry Hughes (Mar 9, 2005)

Cut and dry?

If they mean they "surrender all" and then aquire grace it is another Gospel period. The writings of Paul could not be more clear, especially Romans and Galatians.

The gift of God cannot be purchased with money, tears, prayers, aisle walking, pleading, begging, telling Christ "here's my heart", making myself clean first, acts of penance, even the false idea that I have even indeed surrendered all my self-righteousness. It cannot be purchased or garnered. IT IS GIVEN and simply received by the empty needy hand.

I suppose I'd ask them what they mean by "surrendering all". Probe that a little further. To see the real principle behind the words. Then if they think they have done so to purchase grace - stated in some other way for few Christians would so explicitly say that they are purchasing grace though in actual practice they do mean that. Then, I suppose I might say something like, "Do you really think so? So, have you really gone and sold all that you have, distributed it to the poor, then followed Christ?" That is the path of the Law. The path of the Gospel is, "Lord, have mercy on me a sinner."

That may or may not be of some assistance. It's tough I'll admit. Partly because most Christians today have all the vocabulary down. Mormons are even tough. Ask a Mormon if he believes Jesus saved him and you will get a yes. But you have to probe the real thinking behind the words.

Larry


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## BlackCalvinist (Mar 10, 2005)

What's wrong with personalizing the gospel in the MWS song ?

Above all powers
Above all things
Above all nature and all created things
Above all wisdom and all the ways of man
You were here before the world began
Above all kingdoms
Above all thrones
Above all wonders the world has ever known
Above all wealth and treasures of the earth
There's no way to measure what You're worth

::Chorus::
Crucified
Laid behind the stone
You lived to die
Rejected and alone
Like a rose trampled on the ground
You took the fall
And thought of me
Above all
===========================================

While I don't like EVERYTHING MWS does (i.e. - Let it rain!




), there are some pretty good nuggets of truth here. Observe:

Above all powers
Above all things
Above all nature and all created things

- God did decide to redeem *men* who sinned, and not angels who sinned. More particular, He decided to redeem _certain men_. As R.C. Sproul rightly pointed out at the PRCT in 99 - God revealed Himself to Abraham in a way that He did NOT reveal Himself to Hammurabi. Both were practicing pagans, living in the same culture around the same time period. God revealed Himself to Paul savingly - yet standing before Pontius Pilate, He did not.

*Above all wisdom and all the ways of man* - think of it.... God decided who would be saved above all the wisdom of man, God planned who would be saved beyond the wisdom of who we thought or think _should_ be saved.....

*You were here before the world began* - very Biblical statement, though I don't see what it has to do _directly_ with redemption.....

Above all kingdoms
Above all thrones
(see statement above on Hammuraubi)

Above all wonders the world has ever known - an accurate statement to describe salvation and the entire event of the Passion.....


Above all wealth and treasures of the earth
There's no way to measure what You're worth

(either that, or he - MSW was stating that God is above all these things.... both of which, are true statements)

::Chorus::
Crucified
Laid behind the stone
You lived to die
Rejected and alone
Like a rose trampled on the ground
You took the fall
And thought of me
Above all

--- think of it. God did think of you and choose you before any of your days were written. God did decide that YOU would be saved according to His grace, where some of the greatest names according to how men measure names and fame, will burn in hell for eternity, their fame gone, their treasure removed and their shame ever-evident before them for eternity. 

I don't see any harm in 'personalizing' the gospel in this fashion. I *do* believe we need to be discerning in what we sing, though.

[Edited on 3-10-2005 by OS_X]


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## turmeric (Mar 10, 2005)

I think He thought of His Father's will & glory above all, but I'm sure I was in there somewhere.

[Edited on 3-11-2005 by turmeric]


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## BlackCalvinist (Mar 11, 2005)

That's a given, Meg  And the Fathers' will was that certain men should be saved... above all others.


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