# Separation from the world



## rbcbob

SEPARATION FROM THE WORLD
I was pained to read through a recent thread on Rock Concerts. I regularly wish that I could forget the rock music which is seared into my memory. Rather than weigh in on that thread I want to open one wherein others who, like myself would like to espouse a Biblically balanced separation from the world.
The question that I pose is this:

*IF*, as the Scriptures teach, We are not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world -- the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life -- is not of the Father but is of the world. And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever. 1 John 2:15-17 
and
2 Corinthians 6:17 - 7:1 Therefore "Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you." "I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the LORD Almighty." Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
*THEN* *what does such separation look like?* *How does the believer in each succeeding generation work this out for himself or herself?*

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=221101029380


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## TaylorOtwell

[video=youtube;NY6bn-MrjdQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY6bn-MrjdQ[/video]


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## rbcbob

Taylor, I can't see what you posted. It's just a blank on my screen.


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## TaylorOtwell

rbcbob said:


> Taylor, I can't see what you posted. It's just a blank on my screen.



Brother Bob,

It's a YouTube video of John Piper discussing what he sees as the "Achilles Heel" of the rising generation. Namely, though many have a large interest in Puritan/Reformed Theology, it is disconnected from their practical, daily living.


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## Scott1

Bob,

I think part of it is in the sabbath. The fourth commandment, the Lord's Day.

Separating oneself from not only the actions of our work on this earth, but thinking or talking about it. It is a foretaste of what heaven is like.

(emphasis added)



> Westminster Larger Catechism
> 
> Question 121: Why is the word Remember set in the beginning of the fourth commandment?
> 
> Answer: The word Remember is set in the beginning of the fourth commandment, partly, because of *the great benefit of remembering it*, we being thereby helped in our preparation to keep it, and, in keeping it, better to keep all the rest of the commandments, and to continue* a thankful remembrance of the two great benefits of creation and redemption*, which contain a short abridgment of religion; and partly, because we are very ready to forget it, for that there is less light of nature for it, *and yet it restrains our natural liberty in things at other times lawful*; that it comes but once in seven days, and many worldly businesses come between, and *too often take off our minds from thinking of it*, either to prepare for it, or to sanctify it;and that *Satan with his instruments much labor to blot out the glory, and even the memory of it*, to bring in all irreligion and impiety.





> Westminster Directory of Worship
> 
> CHAPTER IV
> THE SANCTIFICATION OF THE LORD’S DAY
> 
> Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.42
> 1. As it is the law of nature that, in general, a due proportion of time
> be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive,
> moral, and perpetual commandment, binding all people in all
> ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven to be a day
> set apart and kept holy to Him.43 From the beginning of creation
> to the resurrection of Christ, this day was the seventh day of the
> week,44 but following the resurrection this day became the first
> day of the week and is called the Lord’s Day.45
> 
> 2. The Lord’s Day is to be kept holy by a holy resting all the day,
> *making it our delight46 to spend the whole time* in the public and
> private exercises of religion, together with works of necessity and
> mercy.47 To that end, we should prepare our hearts and *order our
> lives and labors beforehand so that the whole day may be kept*
> for the Lord.48
> 
> 3. When the day is properly kept, it is experienced as* a day of joy
> and celebration in holy convocation*.49 On this day we are enabled
> *by the Spirit to leave the toils and worries of this world and taste
> afresh of the heavenly rest*, returning to the household of God
> who inhabits the praises of His people.50 *We are to imitate the
> example of God, who rested* *and was refreshed when He finished
> the work of creation*.51 *We are to remember* our deliverance and
> salvation, and look forward to the eternal rest secured for us in
> the resurrection of Christ;52 even as our forefathers under the Old
> Testament recalled their deliverance from Egypt and the gift of
> rest in the promised land.53
> 
> 42 Exod. 20:8.
> 43 COF XXI.VII.
> 44 Exod. 20:8, 31:12-17.
> 45 Luke 24:36-49; John 20:19-23, 26-29; Acts 20:7; I Cor. 16:2; Rev. 1:10.
> 46 Isa. 58:13-14.
> 47 Mark 2:23—3:5, Luke 13:10-16, COF XXI.VIII.
> 48 Exod. 16:5, 22-30; COF XXI.VIII; LC Q. 117 .
> 49 Neh. 8:9-12; Ps. 122:1; Is. 56:1-8, 58:13-14.
> 50 Ps. 22:3.
> 51 Exod. 20:8, 31:17.
> 52 Heb. 4:1-10.
> 53 Deut. 5:12-15.


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## Michael

For me, separation looks like: the practice of removing worldly idols from one's personal affections. This can sometimes play itself out differently to various people. There are certain things from my past life of hedonism that I simply cannot partake of or enjoy that may coincidentally be of little or no danger to another child of God. I must amputate those things which have competed for God's glory in my heart. That's what it looks like to me.


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## jayce475

Maybe it is the separatist teachings and literal hermeneutics that I have been exposed to over the years, but if the bible says be separate from such things and love not such things, then doesn't it simply mean that we ought to not touch them? I know that sensual movies on TV or at the cinemas are unclean, then I shouldn't even go anywhere near them should I? If I know that rock bands constantly scream out devilish lyrics, I shouldn't be anywhere near them. Unless of course, I'm going there to evaluate them and uses such an evaluation in preparation for a sermon. But for the sake of pleasure and self-indulgence, why is we even trying to justify ourselves before God? Why are we using our ears which should be used for hearing God's word to hear words of the devil, using our eyes which are meant for reading God's word to watching products of the devil and using our feet which should be used for travelling for God's purposes to go to worldly places?
Luke 8: 14-15 "And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, *and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life*, and bring no fruit to perfection. But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience."
To think that we are on the *Puritan Board*, perhaps we should start embracing the piety and holiness preached by the puritans a bit more?


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## rbcbob

> Ephesians 5: 8 For you *were once* darkness, *but now* you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 *For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret.*



In the 60’s and 70’s when a stranger to God and His grace I walked in darkness. The mantra of that generation was “sex, drugs and rock ‘n roll”. But for the grace of God I would have continued reveling in it all. It puzzles me that those who have been redeemed and separated from the world and unto Christ can revel in such things.


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## jayce475

rbcbob said:


> Ephesians 5: 8 For you *were once* darkness, *but now* you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 *For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the 60’s and 70’s when a stranger to God and His grace I walked in darkness. The mantra of that generation was “sex, drugs and rock ‘n roll”. But for the grace of God I would have continued reveling in it all. It puzzles me that those who have been redeemed and separated from the world and unto Christ can revel in such things.
Click to expand...

 
It's not as if generation "Y" is all that different. Our mantra appears to be "just do it". Had it not been for God's grace, I also would still be feeding on my daily dose of blasphemous rock songs and sappy sentimental music from the likes of Taylor Swift. Tozer put it well. "The idea that this world is a playground instead of a battleground has now been accepted in practice by the vast majority of Christians. "


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## AVT

Separation from the world? It makes me ask,"What is worldliness?". I cannot separate totally from the world-I am confronted and bombarded by it in my daily life. I always look at the world as belonging to God and affected by so much fallenness and sin. God has redeemed me from the inside and as I mature in my spiritual walk , I am becoming more confident in engaging the world...and I am not really surprised when I see a lot of evil and twisted ideas as a result of the Fall.

As doing things differently from the world ,I just use the Ten Commandments to guide me in my actions and decisions and repent immediately when I fail.


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## Mushroom

Romans 14, brother.


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## py3ak

Worldliness is sometimes equated with entertainment/pleasure (though oddly enough that equation is only rarely made with regard to sports, and much more with regard to stories). And to be sure, some entertainments and pleasures can be irremediably worldly, and even those that are not can be abused unto worldliness. But making such an equation is dangerous, I think, in large part because it can leave untouched vast tracts of worldliness within oneself that go unrecognized since they do not fit in obvious ways with the entertainment zeitgeist.

When I think about worldliness there are two elements that come to mind. One is that the fashion of this world passes away, and consequently any attitude or habit that practically forgets the transitory nature of the present constitution is necessarily worldly. We must not, from looking around us, forget to look towards the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. The second thing is related to that, and it is the unfruitful character of worldliness. It does not produce anything that can outlast the final conflagration, and so it is ultimately barren. No doubt there is more that could be said, but it seems to me that it is possible to at least begin to expose and reject worldliness by proceeding along those lines, while preserving the idea that God's creation is good and we are blessed with much that can be used and enjoyed in the prospect of eternal life.


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## jayce475

Brad said:


> Romans 14, brother.


 
Romans 14:1-2"Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs."

Which means that those who able to do engage in worldly activities unto the glory of God should be allowed to do so with a critical eye, while those of weaker faith and cannot do so critically should not touch them at all. 

1 Cor 10:31 "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God."

How many are able to attend a Black Sabbath concert and revel in the worldly sounds to the glory of God?


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## Mushroom

> How many are able to attend a Black Sabbath concert and revel in the worldly sounds to the glory of God?


Not this one, brother.


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## buggy

It is important for us not to immediately worldliness with *things,* for if we do that we will miss the meaning of what worldliness is. The purpose of the Christian for this life, is, as the Word of God says to glorify Him, and enjoy Him forever (so does the confessions). As it can be seen, the Christian life focuses its love and devotion to Jesus Christ who saves all His children. Such love is expressed through *keeping God's commandments, receiving all good things in thanksgiving and prayer - to live in a thankful manner dependent on Him.*

But what about the worldly soul? Without his eyes set on God, he satisfies himself in creation rather than the Creator. Allowing himself to be persuaded by the philosophies of this world rather than the Word of God. Worldliness is of the *heart.* We can choose to abstain totally from alcoholic drinks, gambling, etc. but we still act rashly and foolishly towards others without thinking of our actions - exactly what the drunkard and gambler and so on does. 

I agree that much of the "worldliness" is aimed at the entertainment industry. It is true that many in my generation waste much time with vain entertainments, which delay economic productivity, marriage eligibility, and availability for Christian service... and ultimately love for the Lord. But "entertainment" is a necessity - so one must put their priorities correct. 

To remember what Solomon said, "All is vanity". And Paul's statement, "Use this world, but not abuse it." 
This should be the believer's attitude towards the world.


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## Pilgrim72

Just a thought. Who's saying that those people who went to those concerts "loved" them in a worldly sense? As in "If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him".

I do see what you're saying, and if going to a rock concert is causing you to sin, then you shouldn't go. But what if enjoying that music, to someone, is the same as enjoying a Marble Mocha Macchiato at Starbucks? It's a passing enjoyment just as anything in this world. I recently played Monopoly (for the first time in decades) with a friend of mine and his family. I lost. But I still enjoyed that time. Was it sin to play that game? Maybe you think so, I don't know.
Some people on this board enjoy watching sports and playing sports, (even though I personally don't). Is that sin?
Are we supposed to cut off all enjoyment in the things of this passing world (not speaking of worldliness here)? Who says that Christians that enjoy these things are "lusting" after them? I don't think the verses you listed apply. If you're going to apply them to music, then maybe apply them to everything else in life.

I hope this doesn't read like I'm upset. I'm not. It's just my 2 cents.


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## rbcbob

> Romans 6: 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.





> 1 Peter 4:1 Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. 3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles -- when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries. 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you. 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.



Should we be comfortable (not to mention take pleasure) in a setting 
•	Where the philosophy, and thus the lyrics, of the artists use God and our Redeemer’s name as a swear word
•	where the world-view of the artists and fans is opposed to God and His law
•	where fornication, adultery, drug abuse are celebrated
•	where the God ordained standards of family, selfless love, and self control are notoriously absent
•	where women are degraded as objects for throw away pleasures

Where in all of this are the called out people of God? Where the new nature? Where the conformity to Christ? Where the Sanctifying power of the Gospel and the Holy Spirit? Where are the New Creations in Christ?


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## Pilgrim72

I rarely go to concerts anymore, but when I did, I can sincerely say that I personally did not enjoy any part of what you listed there. I went because I enjoyed music in a live setting. You're going to find all kinds of sin in this world as we pass through. If we enjoy a song, or a ballgame, or a TV show, or whatever, doesn't mean we are taking part in the same personal sins or wicked values of those that are entertaining or being entertained. But I'm only saying this for myself.
I didn't even start going to concerts until long after I became a Christian...



> Where in all of this are the called out people of God? Where the new nature? Where the conformity to Christ? Where the Sanctifying power of the Gospel and the Holy Spirit? Where are the New Creations in Christ?



You find this in the church. With God's people. How I am incredibly blessed to join with the people of God to worship Him, and glorify Him. And ultimately we'll see a perfection of these qualities in heaven.


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## kvanlaan

> How many are able to attend a Black Sabbath concert and revel in the worldly sounds to the glory of God?



I don't know that anyone can (or, shall I phrase it this way; could someone please show me how you can?)

I've heard a lot of people talk about the fact that we must yet go out into this world, that Christ spent time in the world all the time, and yet Christ never chilled out over a beer with tax collectors and centurions, he gave them the gospel. Do we give the next guy over at the Black Sabbath concert the gospel, or are we just there to gorge at the trough of the world (and then, two days later, come to the table of the Lord and expect everything to be hunky dory)?


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## jayce475

Pilgrim72 said:


> Just a thought. Who's saying that those people who went to those concerts "loved" them in a worldly sense? As in "If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him".
> 
> I do see what you're saying, and if going to a rock concert is causing you to sin, then you shouldn't go. But what if enjoying that music, to someone, is the same as enjoying a Marble Mocha Macchiato at Starbucks? It's a passing enjoyment just as anything in this world. I recently played Monopoly (for the first time in decades) with a friend of mine and his family. I lost. But I still enjoyed that time. Was it sin to play that game? Maybe you think so, I don't know.
> Some people on this board enjoy watching sports and playing sports, (even though I personally don't). Is that sin?
> Are we supposed to cut off all enjoyment in the things of this passing world (not speaking of worldliness here)? Who says that Christians that enjoy these things are "lusting" after them? I don't think the verses you listed apply. If you're going to apply them to music, then maybe apply them to everything else in life.
> 
> I hope this doesn't read like I'm upset. I'm not. It's just my 2 cents.


 
Eccl 2:1 "I said in mine heart, Go to now, I will prove thee with mirth, therefore enjoy pleasure: and, behold, this also is vanity."

Eccl 12:13-14 "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil."

Any form of enjoyment done without God in mind is vanity, nothing but emptiness. Even enjoying the labour of our hands without faith is sin, so it is difficult to see how our typical self-indulgent entertainment-seeking heart is usually able to glorify God. When we study or work, we labour lawfully and with God in mind, keeping a good testimony for our Lord. When we partake of lawful recreation like sports and games (Monopoly and such), we do so without letting pride getting in the way and always remembering that we need to fear God and behave as a child of God when we utter anything in the course of the games. We also thank God that we are able to have friends and family around us to enjoy these activities with us. 

I am in the process of quitting the watching of sports myself as I find myself being consumed by my emotions in supporting my favourite teams, but if there be any brethren who is able to watch sports and appreciate how wondrous God's creation is in granting the sportsmen those gifts without making any sports figure the object of idolatory, then there is a good case for watching sports to the glory of God. 

So yes indeed, absolutely everything we do moment by moment absolutely has to be to the glory of God for He is thrice holy. We fall short all the time, so there is a need to repent every single day. But aren't we making the world a bit too much of a playground when we openly seek entertainment that pander to our flesh without even giving a second thought as to how we can possibly do something like that to the glory of God? I welcome brethren to give some perspectives on how rock music can be enjoyed in a way that gives glory to God, especially the outright blasphemous ones like Iron Maiden and Black Sabbath that I have seen being named in the thread about rock music. Also, with regards to lyrics, even if they are not blasphemous, they are also almost invariably filled with worldly philosophies and unbiblical sentimental notions of romance. Can one be immersed in hours upon hours of such songs and grow in His grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ?


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## bouletheou

Bob,

Quick question: Would you be as upset if the post was about our favorite opera or symphony performance?

Blessings,


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## ChariotsofFire

I've been thinking about the issue of worldliness both in principle and in practice. 

In principle, I know that God has given us many good gifts in this life to take pleasure in, but I can't let these good things become idols. Keep them in their proper perspective. Things overtly against God's will are of the flesh, and if movies or music or sports encourage us to sin in any way by influencing us to act in the flesh, "put off" these things. We can not hide behind "Christian Liberty" to enjoy things God hates. Now we also are in the world and not of the world, which is where I begin to think pragmatically. 

I know God has given us entertainment, and we can enjoy it, but in our culture much of entertainment is steeped in sin (the "of the world" part). To take movies for an example, there are very few movies with no sinful behaviors in them. In Toy Story (rated G?), there in hatred shown by the main character towards another character. Is this sinful behavior in the movie similar to keeping company with the fool? Is this bad company going to corrupt good morals in me? I didn't feel any more inclined to hate people I didn't think, but perhaps I should have avoided this movie. I want to hold every thought captive to Christ. If I know something I choose to engage in is going to corrupt me in any way, I know I should avoid it. If this is the standard, how do we discern what will corrupt our morals? Maybe someone will argue they can watch unwholesome talk (maybe four letter words, etc.). After all I can watch someone hate someone else. Could degrees of evil come into play? Hating is bad, but murder is much worse, etc. etc. Where do we draw the line? I could use some wisdom!

My current practice w/ entertainment is to avoid entertainment that would cause me to lust in any way, would cause me to speak unwholesomely with curse words, or would cause me to act in rage with senseless violence. I think I should also avoid entertainment that encourages jealousy, strife, anger, and hatred as well. Currently, I don't know really how to discern this very well. 



> Gal 5:16-25
> 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: *sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, [4] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these.* I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
> 
> 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.





> 2 Cor 10:5
> 5 We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ


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## Bern

> Bob,
> 
> Quick question: Would you be as upset if the post was about our favorite opera or symphony performance?
> 
> Blessings,



It depepnds if the subject/ style of the opera was downright opposed to God's commands or not. I personally can't stand the sound of opera, but for the most part, I don't think it is on par with the evils of rock music. I personally think that music is one of the big idols of modern life, especially for under 30's. Anything done without faith is sin.... and there's no way I can listen to rock music that glorifies the world and minimises God and think that God is pleased with me while I'm doing it.

As I said on the other thread, I gave up rock music a few years ago, and I haven't missed it... I was a musician and music was my life, but I realised that constantly being exposed to ungodly morality and anything that exalts the flesh and the world (and sometimes the devil) and dethrones God was seriously bad for my spiritual health. 
People make excuses for rock music because it is their pet sin that they dont want to let go of.


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## PuritanZealot

> we are on the Puritan Board, perhaps we should start embracing the piety and holiness preached by the puritans a bit more?


Totally agree.
And in my opinion, surely for a true born again believer the mere memory of their sin should be a disgusting thing to behold. I used to be a Satanist, into black magic, all manner of openly anti-christian and demonic things and one of those was black metal music (don't look it up). 
When I became a Christian and turned my back on it I had to turn my back on EVERYTHING to do with that lifestyle. 
Some Christians who still listen to rock music or metal that is 'christian' are just like dogs that go back and sniff their vomit rather than eat it. It's still a remnant of that disgusting sinful self.
I think the puritans would utterly abhor the idea of Christian rock music. So should we.


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## ColdSilverMoon

bouletheou said:


> Bob,
> 
> Quick question: Would you be as upset if the post was about our favorite opera or symphony performance?
> 
> Blessings,


 
Good point, Pastor Carpenter. The real issue isn't the style of music so much as the content of the song and the motives of the person listening to it. I'm not a big fan of rock music, but I can imagine there is and can be edifying rock music. Likewise, I have been to operas with objectionable content on the stage and highly suggestive lyrics to accompany the beautiful melodies. On the other hand my brother was into Christian heavy metal as a teenager, and while I found the quality of music to be terrible it was hard to argue with much of the lyrical content. So I think it's highly simplistic to dismiss an entire genre of music over mere stylistic concerns. The real issue is examining our hearts to glorify God in all we do - including enjoying all manner of sounds that He ultimately created.


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## buggy

There _seems to be_ an underlying assumption in some statements here that rock music _per se_ is sinful or ungodly. May I ask the reason why this is so. I do not buy into the 4/4 back-beat argument or the "harmony, melody, rhythm" argument some Arminian fundamentalists promote (google them if you don't know). 

If you shun rock music because of its ungodly connotations you preceive, I understand why and it is even good for to follow one's personal convictions. However, may it be reminded that even the classical music, orchestra, native music, ballroom music, of the olden days have their fair share of musicians with biblically questionable/ungodly lifestyles as well (e.g. homosexuality, womanizing and so on). 

Who knows in the future what new styles/genres of music will be invented by Man? Then what will we say? It is important that when we look at anything in this world, we analyze it from a strictly Biblical perspective rather than cultural/social conservatism. For "conservative" is something that is relative and flows with the world, but the Word of God stands firm no matter what.


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## jayce475

ColdSilverMoon said:


> bouletheou said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bob,
> 
> Quick question: Would you be as upset if the post was about our favorite opera or symphony performance?
> 
> Blessings,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good point, Pastor Carpenter. The real issue isn't the style of music so much as the content of the song and the motives of the person listening to it. I'm not a big fan of rock music, but I can imagine there is and can be edifying rock music. Likewise, I have been to operas with objectionable content on the stage and highly suggestive lyrics to accompany the beautiful melodies. On the other hand my brother was into Christian heavy metal as a teenager, and while I found the quality of music to be terrible it was hard to argue with much of the lyrical content. So I think it's highly simplistic to dismiss an entire genre of music over mere stylistic concerns. The real issue is examining our hearts to glorify God in all we do - including enjoying all manner of sounds that He ultimately created.
Click to expand...

 
I believe that this topic started out targetting secular rock music and had remained on topic up until #24. The arguments have been against secular, and often times openly blasphemous and satanic, rock music. If we are touching on Christian rock, that's an RPW debate that deserves its own thread. Yes, most of us would still find Christian rock inappropriate to different levels, but that's not what we're talking about here.



buggy said:


> There _seems to be_ an underlying assumption in some statements here that rock music _per se_ is sinful or ungodly. May I ask the reason why this is so. I do not buy into the 4/4 back-beat argument or the "harmony, melody, rhythm" argument some Arminian fundamentalists promote (google them if you don't know).
> 
> If you shun rock music because of its ungodly connotations you preceive, I understand why and it is even good for to follow one's personal convictions. However, may it be reminded that even the classical music, orchestra, native music, ballroom music, of the olden days have their fair share of musicians with biblically questionable/ungodly lifestyles as well (e.g. homosexuality, womanizing and so on).
> 
> Who knows in the future what new styles/genres of music will be invented by Man? Then what will we say? It is important that when we look at anything in this world, we analyze it from a strictly Biblical perspective rather than cultural/social conservatism. For "conservative" is something that is relative and flows with the world, but the Word of God stands firm no matter what.



Tian, indeed God's Word stands. And it clearly calls for biblical separation from the world. Which means that as children of God, we ought to be separate from things that are associated with the ungodly. I would contend that virtually all secular rock music, which invariably contains lyrics which depict different aspects of worldliness, is tainted by all kinds of ideas that violate at least one of God's commandments. James 1: 27 "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." God's Word makes it very clear, we shouldn't be spotted by such things by reveling in them. Simply because of the content, children of God should not be deriving pleasure out of any sort of secular music that contains questionable lyrics, regardless of whether it is pop, jazz, rap, R&B, country or whatever is out there today. If we are going to shift the topic to music without lyrics, then we would be talking about the neutrality of musical forms. Would you say that music is neutral? This is essentially the same debate as those on the application of RPW with regards to contemporary worship. But I suspect that is not what this thread is discussing. 

By the way, you said earlier that "'entertainment' is a necessity". I would respectfully disagree. Nowhere in scriptures are we told that entertainment is necessary. We ought to gain enough joy out of our fellowship with God as it is. Yes, Solomon sought after entertainment, but then he realized how utterly pointless and empty it was. When our Lord was on earth, He did not waste time in self-indulgent entertainment did he? Recreation such as playing simple games and sports can be done for the purpose of fellowship and staying healthy, so they can be done with God's glory easily in sight. However, the passive watching of TV shows, rock concerts and movies usually serve no purpose other than exciting our flesh. Unless of course, we are really watching/attending them to understand things of God. We have a God who is radically different from the world, so ought we not also live radically different lifestyles from the world?


----------



## Michael

jayce475 said:


> If we are touching on Christian rock, that's an RPW debate that deserves its own thread.


The thread is not about worship, so how is Christian rock inappropriate for this particular discussion? I'm not a big fan of CCM--I believe that even under that label there is much that requires discernment. But there were people in the concert thread that specifically mentioned Christian bands. Addressing that here would be more than appropriate.


----------



## jayce475

Michael Turner said:


> jayce475 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If we are touching on Christian rock, that's an RPW debate that deserves its own thread.
> 
> 
> 
> The thread is not about worship, so how is Christian rock inappropriate for this particular discussion? I'm not a big fan of CCM--I believe that even under that label there is much that requires discernment. But there were people in the concert thread that specifically mentioned Christian bands. Addressing that here would be more than appropriate.
Click to expand...

 
Oh is that the case? Christian bands were mentioned? I'm clueless about them, so pardon me. So we are looking at Christian rock for the sake of personal edification and not corporate worship? The theology of the CCM collection that I amassed as a charismatic is generally suspect to say the least, but I digress. Secular rock music, as many here have echoed, really has no place in the lives of believers. Christian pop/rock/rap/whatever is a different beast altogether. In my humble opinion, there is good enough reason to not listen to them purely because of their associations to contemporary secular music and the generally suspect theology (the Arminianism in my Hillsongs CDs is pretty clear), but I personally am not totally dogmatic about this. Those more well-versed in music may perhaps like to discuss this issue.


----------



## Christopher88

Pardon my lack of knowledge, but I am wanting to express a few things that you who are more educated could answer. 
I enjoy the outdoors allot. I'm in awe of God when I'm that mountain top or at the beach. I love to camp, I plan to camp every month when it gets warmer. These things are part of the world, but my enjoyment in them is not worldliness. I don't worship nature, I worship God who made nature. In that I enjoy the so called playground that surrounds me. How is me enjoying Gods' creation sin? I don't believe it is. You guys are mainly talking about music. I just want to ask this one question;
What is worldliness? 
I have to work to pay bills. My job does not glorfi God in anyway. So therefore that is worldliness. 
I enjoy sports, but do not worship the ground the athletes walk on. So is watching sports worldliness? 
I listen to Country music, I enjoy country music. Is it worldliness to enjoy something? 

No. 

In my personal view when a Christian is carnal he is in worship of the things he enjoys, or uses. He is sexual impure, cusses like like a sailor, is angry, and so fourth. When enjoyment becomes worship that is when we have a problem. 

I came from a strict Baptist College, you could not do a thing. So when I read some of what you guys are writing, I fear legalism. Because this is a forum I can not tell what you are meaning, but some clarification would be helpful. 

Thanks.


----------



## rbcbob

bouletheou said:


> Bob,
> 
> Quick question: Would you be as upset if the post was about our favorite opera or symphony performance?
> 
> Blessings,


 
I am unfamiliar with opera and symphony. Black Sabbath, Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, etc..... *I know all too well.*


----------



## jayce475

Sonny said:


> Pardon my lack of knowledge, but I am wanting to express a few things that you who are more educated could answer.
> I enjoy the outdoors allot. I'm in awe of God when I'm that mountain top or at the beach. I love to camp, I plan to camp every month when it gets warmer. These things are part of the world, but my enjoyment in them is not worldliness. I don't worship nature, I worship God who made nature. In that I enjoy the so called playground that surrounds me. How is me enjoying Gods' creation sin? I don't believe it is. You guys are mainly talking about music. I just want to ask this one question;
> What is worldliness?
> I have to work to pay bills. My job does not glorfi God in anyway. So therefore that is worldliness.
> I enjoy sports, but do not worship the ground the athletes walk on. So is watching sports worldliness?
> I listen to Country music, I enjoy country music. Is it worldliness to enjoy something?
> 
> No.
> 
> In my personal view when a Christian is carnal he is in worship of the things he enjoys, or uses. He is sexual impure, cusses like like a sailor, is angry, and so fourth. When enjoyment becomes worship that is when we have a problem.
> 
> I came from a strict Baptist College, you could not do a thing. So when I read some of what you guys are writing, I fear legalism. Because this is a forum I can not tell what you are meaning, but some clarification would be helpful.
> 
> Thanks.


 
I guess I'm the "legalistic" one around here since I touched on lifestyles, so allow me to explain myself a bit. God tells us to labour and work, so work in itself is not sinful. But we do it to the glory of God. Don't see how appreciating God's creation can impinge on any of the ten commandments, so that sounds mighty good. Watching sports is not sinful in itself, just as how most other forms of entertainment are not sinful in themselves, though they open us up to opportunities to start sinning. We need to do them to the glory of God, and if we are not able to, then why are we doing it? I personally find that idolatry of sports teams can creep in easily when watching sports, so I'm quitting it. God has laid down ten commandments for us to keep and we need to follow all of them in spirit, applying them to our deeds, thoughts and words. Might be useful to have a look at the Westminster Shorter Catechism with regards to the ten commandments, so that we can have a better understanding of God's standards, rather than trying to use our own subjective standards to determine what is sinful and carnal.


----------



## bouletheou

Bob,

OK. Fair answer.

The question I was trying to get at was the question of form and content. For instance, much classical music glorifies paganism and sexual immorality, as do many operas. Even the ones that do not are often "God-free" in their content. At least some famous composers were homosexuals and adulterers. Yet almost nobody would criticize a classical music afficionado for worldliness. Country music is also full of songs about fornication and drunkenness. What theology they espouse is often atrocious. Few would criticize those listeners for worldliness.

I take your point about worldliness and music, and I'm not sure I disagree with it in substance. I was one who responded on the "favorite concerts" post. Two of the three shows I mentioned were by those who made no professions of faith at all. One (U2) was by a group in which several of the members had made a profession of faith, but in my limited knowledge, don't seem to be bearing fruit. Was I being worldly when I watched these? Well, for one of them (Van Halen) I was not yet a believer. For the second one (Mellencamp) I was a believer, and appreciated JCM's music precisely because it didn't offend my faith overtly. For the third one (U2) I was in a severely backslidden state and was stoned out of my gourd, but I don't think I can blame Bono and the Edge for that. I came to the show stoned. Had I not been in a backslidden state, I do not think I would have found anything there which would automatically draw me away from God.

I've all but quit listening to music except for a little classical music, not because I'm so holy, but because I just don't enjoy it anymore and it's a waste of my time. Ditto for TV watching. Classical music is nice because I can attend to it if I choose, but it doesn't demand my attention like other forms of music do. Thus I am free to do other things unhindered as well. The only time I listen to rock is when I'm on the elliptical machine at the gym.

I absolutely agree with the one who posted that we are in a major case of musical idolatry in this country. It has assumed an importance far out of proportion with its true value. I am convinced that there is more going on here than meets the eye, and that it is forming our souls in ways which are irrational, poorly understood, and detrimental to godliness.


----------



## Tripel

jayce475 said:


> However, the passive watching of TV shows, rock concerts and movies usually serve no purpose other than exciting our flesh. Unless of course, we are really watching/attending them to understand things of God. We have a God who is radically different from the world, so ought we not also live radically different lifestyles from the world?


 
Is there purpose in attending the symphony? I'd say there absolutely is. God created music, and music doesn't have to be "Christian" in order to be good. Music can reflect truth and beauty without having "Christian" lyrics. I think we run into a lot of problems if we draw a line between music that is Christian and music that is secular. Instead, we should draw a line between what is good/true/beautiful and that which is not. There is a lot of poor "Christian" music out there and there is a lot of beautiful "secular" music out there.

---------- Post added at 10:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 AM ----------




jayce475 said:


> Don't see how appreciating God's creation can impinge on any of the ten commandments, so that sounds mighty good. Watching sports is not sinful in itself, just as how most other forms of entertainment are not sinful in themselves, though they open us up to opportunities to start sinning.


 
So why isn't the same true for rock music?

---------- Post added at 10:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:17 AM ----------




jayce475 said:


> Secular rock music, as many here have echoed, really has no place in the lives of believers.


 
Can you say the same about every other genre of "secular" music?


----------



## jayce475

Tripel said:


> jayce475 said:
> 
> 
> 
> However, the passive watching of TV shows, rock concerts and movies usually serve no purpose other than exciting our flesh. Unless of course, we are really watching/attending them to understand things of God. We have a God who is radically different from the world, so ought we not also live radically different lifestyles from the world?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is there purpose in attending the symphony? I'd say there absolutely is. God created music, and music doesn't have to be "Christian" in order to be good. Music can reflect truth and beauty without having "Christian" lyrics. I think we run into a lot of problems if we draw a line between music that is Christian and music that is secular. Instead, we should draw a line between what is good/true/beautiful and that which is not. There is a lot of poor "Christian" music out there and there is a lot of beautiful "secular" music out there
Click to expand...


Yes I actually agree with you. Music in itself can be appreciated. It is the secular lyrics that accompany secular songs that I absolutely abhor. And yes indeed we absolutely must practise discernment when listening to Christian songs, even hymns and spirituals. I am absolutely clueless about classical music and such, and have never really been exposed to them. The secular music that I know of goes more along the lines of Nirvana and Greenday. 



> jayce475 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't see how appreciating God's creation can impinge on any of the ten commandments, so that sounds mighty good. Watching sports is not sinful in itself, just as how most other forms of entertainment are not sinful in themselves, though they open us up to opportunities to start sinning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why isn't the same true for rock music?
Click to expand...


Yes it is true for rock music. However, secular rock music is also overtly associated with sin and we ought to practise biblical separation from such. Non-Christians seeing us attend rock concerts or movie theatres may think that we endorse whatever nonsense is coming out of the singer's mouth or is being churned out by Hollywood, so we ought to not to be found in places of the world. And once again, if there is anyone around here who can start shedding some light on how we can listen to Black Sabbath to the glory of God, please do.



> Can you say the same about every other genre of "secular" music?



As I've said, it's more about the lyrics than the music. However, I am also not convinced about music being neutral. Then again, I have absolutely no knowledge about music, so whatever music draws me closer to God is acceptable to me while that which prevents me from worshipping God in my thoughts is cast aside.


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## rbcbob

[/COLOR]


jayce475 said:


> Don't see how appreciating God's creation can impinge on any of the ten commandments, so that sounds mighty good. Watching sports is not sinful in itself, just as how most other forms of entertainment are not sinful in themselves, though they open us up to opportunities to start sinning.


 


> So why isn't the same true for rock music?



The apostle himself was familiar with sports and used them as analogies in scripture:


> 2 Timothy 2:5 5 And also if anyone competes in athletics, he is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules


.

Rock music is collectively as a genre (exceptions are rare) philosophically worldly, not only ungodly but anti-God.

Sympathy for the Devil, Imagine, Let's spend the night together, etc. etc. etc.


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## VictorBravo

Just to add a bit of background, I'm linking a blog post by Andrew Meyers pointing out that the Puritans were fond of music, just careful about its use in worship:



> As to the private encouragement of music, it will suffice to remember that 'Opera, so far as Britain is concerned, was actually an importation of Puritan times'. A group of people who produced Milton, and who popularized the Psalms, are unfairly described as Philistines. Privately they encouraged the arts and, if they objected to the use of the arts in the service of the Church, their conviction was not aesthetic but religious in basis. It was not that they disliked art, but that they loved religion more.



Virginia is for Huguenots: Art and Music in Puritan Worship


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## ericfromcowtown

rbcbob said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> 
> jayce475 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't see how appreciating God's creation can impinge on any of the ten commandments, so that sounds mighty good. Watching sports is not sinful in itself, just as how most other forms of entertainment are not sinful in themselves, though they open us up to opportunities to start sinning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why isn't the same true for rock music?
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The apostle himself was familiar with sports and used them as analogies in scripture:
> 
> 
> 
> 2 Timothy 2:5 5 And also if anyone competes in athletics, he is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> .
> 
> Rock music is collectively as a genre (exceptions are rare) philosophically worldly, not only ungodly but anti-God.
> 
> Sympathy for the Devil, Imagine, Let's spend the night together, etc. etc. etc.
Click to expand...



Can you please elaborate on your claim that rock music is collectively as a genre anti-God? As mentioned by previous posters, one can easily find a couple of worldly country-and-western song titles, yet people tend to be hesitant to label country-and-western as "collectively anti-God." The same can be said of movie theatres, board games, etc.. etc.. It seems like you're painting with a pretty broad brush.


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## JML

I think it would be safe to say that any music which has lyrics that speak of the breaking of any of the commandments of God or make light of sin would be characterized as anti-God (whether rock, country, jazz, blues, etc.). I think that the problem arises when we realize that if we use this criteria, there is hardly anything left besides instrumental. This is unfortunate but is the state of our day and age. As far as the Puritans, it is true that they were fond of music but I doubt you would have seen William Perkins giving approval to some of the ungodliness that is considered music today.


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## kvanlaan

I think we're so far gone in some cases, that realistically, we would feel we'd have "too much to lose" if we went back to those standards.


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## Bern

When people object to the slating of rock music, it flies in the face of all common sense. Its obvious that as far as musical genres go, rock/ metal by far has the edge on all the others as the most anti -God style. Its very origins are rebellion against authority, and certainly heavy rock in 99% of cases is blatantly glorifying sin. I know this is a seperate issue, but even the way the music sounds affects the way the listener behaves. I used to always kid myself that the style of the music couldn't affect me... only the words.... but I soon realised that was incorrect when I gave it up. As I've said before, excuses because we love it too much.


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## jayce475

John Lanier said:


> I think it would be safe to say that any music which has lyrics that speak of the breaking of any of the commandments of God or make light of sin would be characterized as anti-God (whether rock, country, jazz, blues, etc.). I think that the problem arises when we realize that if we use this criteria, there is hardly anything left besides instrumental. This is unfortunate but is the state of our day and age. As far as the Puritans, it is true that they were fond of music but I doubt you would have seen William Perkins giving approval to some of the ungodliness that is considered music today.


 
I was wrecking my brains to think of some song that actually contains lyrics without romance, sex, blasphemy or rebellion. This was the best I could come up with. It's probably accurately called a mish-mesh of pop/rock/rap.

[video=youtube;Glny4jSciVI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Glny4jSciVI[/video]

We Are The World
There comes a time 
When we head a certain call 
When the world must come together as one 
There are people dying 
And it's time to lend a hand to life 
The greatest gift of all 

We can't go on 
Pretending day by day 
That someone, somewhere will soon make a change 
We are all a part of 
God's great big family 
And the truth, you know love is all we need 

[Chorus] 
We are the world 
We are the children 
We are the ones who make a brighter day 
So let's start giving 
There's a choice we're making 
We're saving our own lives 
It's true we'll make a better day 
Just you and me 

Send them your heart 
So they'll know that someone cares 
And their lives will be stronger and free 
As God has shown us by turning stone to bread 
So we all must lend a helping hand

When you're down and out 
There seems no hope at all 
But if you just believe 
There's no way we can fall 
Well, well, well, well, let us realize 
That a change will only come 
When we stand together as one 

I was virtually in tears by the end of watching that video, not because the song is all that touching, but because I'm realized what such a song has led to. 

"We're saving our own lives"? There's absolutely nothing wrong with helping with disaster efforts, but if you have seen the magazine that I recently received from Hillsongs church, you realized what songs like these have done. It's pure social gospel, repeated over and over again on the pages. The emotions brought out by such songs only reinforces it. Sin was mentioned a grand total of one time in that whole magazine. Perhaps some might feel that listening to such a song may not cause people to embrace the social gospel, but I know that it has for many of those around me.

"We are all a part of God's great big family"? This line has probably contributed to many an ecumenist or universalist. "How can you say Jesus is the only way? Aren't we all God's people?" 

"And the truth, you know love is all we need". No! God's grace and mercy is all we need. God's truth is all we need. Not this sappy, sentimental and mawkish love that places temporal concerns over and above all things.

For those of you who claim that that you can indulge in such a song without being drawn away by such worldly philosophies, merely taking out the good parts about helping others and appreciating the musical forms, good on ya. But for myself, I find that nigh impossible and am greatly grieved by the souls that may end up in eternal torment just because of such songs.


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## kvanlaan

You know, I am still guilty of listening to music I know I should not as a follower of Christ. But I used to be much more so. 

I was a big fan of Megadeth and Iron Maiden as well as Einsturzende Neubauten and NIN. I was as deep in the mosh pit as anyone else when NIN and Soundgarden played together at Molson Park in Barrie (Marilyn Manson, an unknown, opened for them) - it was a blast. BUT it was no place for a Christian, unless you were handing out tracts full time. This is not a personal conviction, this is not a binding of others' conscience with mine, this is a testimony of a former crack addict telling you that crack is bad, bad enough to screw you up from the inside out and turn you from the God you profess to love. I can still sing, word for word, "The Number of the Beast" from Iron Maiden's 1982 album. How about "22 Acacia Avenue", another track off that album? Or "Children of the Damned"? Read the lyrics, then redeem that, if you can. Better yet, don't touch it - it is of the devil, I _promise_ you that.

That it is a problem for me, but not for you, is not an issue of Christian liberty/conviction. Why is it that when a former addict/prostitute/Hell's Angel tells you the horror of addiction/life on the street/violence as a way of life, we never reply that "well, that was a problem for you, but it is not for me, so I'll just go back to my ganja - it's not like it's crystal meth!" "I am not attracted to or aroused by the strippers dancing in front of me, so it is well within the bounds of my liberty as a Christian to be there!" 

I don't listen to these songs anymore. But for some reason, I cannot remember every word of #159 in our hymnal "O Lord of Hosts, How Lovely" - I love that song; my heart _is_ fainting, longing, His sacred courts to see. But I don't know it by heart. What is written on my heart? "Number of the Beast", a song I haven't heard in _years_. Every word, every note, every beat of the drum, every thump of the bass line. I have read the bio books, that "Number of the Beast" is a song about a dream (nightmare) that one of the band members had, nothing more. That these guys are just a bunch of good fellas, that Bruce Dickinson is just a short air-raid siren of an Englishman, and that there's no malice intended on their part at all. But even though that may be 100% true, in the same way that Joel Osteen is a tool of Satan, these 'unknowing' men are as well. Run from it, shun it with a holy fervor; it is evil.

I simply cannot abide the idea that the same mouth that sings, at full volume, "six, six, six, the number of the beast, six, six, six, the one for you and me" can say that this is a harmless song in a harmless repertoire. I know I keep coming back to that one song, but it is only the foulest rotting carcass in the abattoir, it is not an exception.


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## rbcbob

Kevin, thank you for bringing such clarity to the issue. May the Lord grant the same to generations to come.


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## Bern

Kevin, thats a very good point. I can still remember every little nuance of some of the old Led Zeppelin songs.. but I struggle to remember the words to even the best hymns or psalms. Thats a very telling fact.


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## Christopher88

We have touched Rock, metal. What are your views on Country music?
From a pure entertainment value, what about CCM? 
For me some CCM like Newboys is good, but most of it is too teddy bear like for my liking.


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## rbcbob

Sonny said:


> We have touched Rock, metal. What are your views on Country music?
> From a pure entertainment value, what about CCM?
> For me some CCM like Newboys is good, but most of it is too teddy bear like for my liking.


 
I have never followed closely Country music but at my job I have no option but to listen to whatever the crew has blaring on the radio. Because of that I am regularly exposed to Rock, Country, Hip hop, Blues, etc.

As just an occasional listener in that environment I would say that while there are many Country songs that glorify drunkenness, fornication, adultery and the like, there is to my surprise an occasional song that portrays Christianity, family values, and patriotism in a favorable light.


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## JML

rbcbob said:


> As just an occasional listener in that environment I would say that while there are many Country songs that glorify drunkenness, fornication, adultery and the like, there is to my surprise an occasional song that portrays Christianity, family values, and patriotism in a favorable light.



Having grown up listening to country music, the different topics you mention are even found on the same CD.

Track 1: I cheated on my wife
Track 2: I went and got drunk with the boys
Track 3: How wonderful Heaven will be
....


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## Bern

How ironic


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## Confessor

I have constructed a rule for myself that if a song I own has a sinful title, then I mark it as "Untitled," and if a song's lyrics are sinful and discernible (i.e. I can make out the words), then I delete it.

Also, I have noticed some songs whose musical structures promote ungodly affections within me sometimes, so when I am in a particular state of mind or when I have experienced some particular event (e.g. getting a disappointing grade on something), then I will not listen to those songs (e.g. songs which could promote an unrighteous anger or discontentment).

I don't intend to say this sarcastically in the _least_, but do you all think I am still holding to a pet sin in doing this? I am trying to enjoy music as God's creation while fleeing from sinful lyrics and song styles that can tend to promote wickedness. It seems to me an appropriate balance, but I have deceived myself in the past.

-----

By the way, one thing I absolutely abhor is videos like the "We Are the World" one. If the music makes us feel a certain way, then the message must be right! Flagrant idolatry very expectantly will sound attractive to undiscerning ears, 2 Cor. 11:14.


----------



## jayce475

Confessor said:


> I have constructed a rule for myself that if a song I own has a sinful title, then I mark it as "Untitled," and if a song's lyrics are sinful and discernible (i.e. I can make out the words), then I delete it.
> 
> Also, I have noticed some songs whose musical structures promote ungodly affections within me sometimes, so when I am in a particular state of mind or when I have experienced some particular event (e.g. getting a disappointing grade on something), then I will not listen to those songs (e.g. songs which could promote an unrighteous anger or discontentment).
> 
> I don't intend to say this sarcastically in the _least_, but do you all think I am still holding to a pet sin in doing this? I am trying to enjoy music as God's creation while fleeing from sinful lyrics and song styles that can tend to promote wickedness. It seems to me an appropriate balance, but I have deceived myself in the past.
> 
> -----
> 
> By the way, one thing I absolutely abhor is videos like the "We Are the World" one. If the music makes us feel a certain way, then the message must be right! Flagrant idolatry very expectantly will sound attractive to undiscerning ears, 2 Cor. 11:14.


 
That sounds mighty sensible. 

"Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs." So all who can listen to music and truly appreciate them as God's gift, then that's all good. Perhaps the criteria for determining what are sinful lyrics and what kind of music causes ungodly emotions should be set as high as we can. "1 Cor 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not." So, we should "play it safe" to say the least. When I went through the pop/rock cds I collected when I was young, I can scarcely find a song that my new man is able to bear. The lyrics are usually either mawkish, sinful, in support of worldly causes or plain nonsensical. I even have a few Radioheads in my collection, and after listening to the entire album, I just feel really angsty though I haven't managed to catch a word of the lyrics. 

When it comes to just the music (less the lyrics), I guess that it does vary much from person to person. Perhaps some might even have adulterous thought due to listening to some symphonies? If they are, they should quit those symphonies. That's on one side of the spectrum, but at the other end, I find it rather incredulous that any can claim to be drawn closer to God after listening to heavy metal. I've never actually been really into metal or heavy rock, but soft-rock songs like "Yellow", "Superman (It's Not Easy)", "Boulevard of Broken Dreams" and "Wake Me Up When September Ends" have been the hardest for me to give up as I really really like them. Even if I try my best to disregard the lyrics, the music in itself just takes over my entire being and wants it to do its bidding. I don't know why and I don't know how, but I just find myself being drawn further away from God every time I succumb to the temptation of listening to these songs. Wonder if anyone here can offer any suggestions as to why that is so.


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## EricP

Since the main subject of this thread is separation from the world (albeit with musical emphasis), it can never hurt to read the Puritans--for example, Thomas Brooks' Precious Remedies against Satan's Devices; anyone who could write: "The devil knows that corrupt nature has a seed-plot for all sin, which being drawn forth and watered by some sinful occasion, is soon set a-work to the producing of death and destruction. God will not remove the temptation, until we remove the occasion to temptation" and "It is impossible for that man to get the conquest of sin—who plays and sports with the occasions of sin. God will not remove the temptation to sin, except you turn from the occasion of sin. It is a just and righteous thing with God, that he should fall into the pit, who will adventure to dance upon the brink of the pit, and that he should be a slave to sin, that will not flee from the occasions of sin" (see remedy #7) seemed to know a good deal about both the world of the 17th and the 21st centuries--the musical notes and lyrics may have changed, but the temptation and sin are the same!


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## Philip

What about Jazz? Same kind of culture of drinking, sex, and rebellion produced it. Are we then to say that all jazz is worldly? How about opera? As I recall, many operas are about pagan myths, sex, and rebellion. What about the works of Shakespeare? I do recall some incident of the Puritans banning his plays during the Commonwealth.

Is there a way for Christians to appreciate the common grace present in these art forms while still condemning the falsehoods present in them?


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## buggy

My attitude towards music is more of an "indifferent" one. If I encounter a song that is particularly good, I would like it regardless of the genre. I do not care about what is the "latest" musical trends out there. I especially appreciate songs that talk about society-at-large, be it injustice, suffering, or moments of joy. Music is the expression of Man, and allows us to understand the sentiments of the people, and inspires me to remember the Word of God to make a difference in this society, for the sake of Christ. 

While I try not to appreciate songs that celebrate sin (but with the temptation of the flesh), doesn't it show us the situations of society? Many popular songs today bemoan the over-commercialization of our lifestyle, the rise of hatred when Man persecutes others, and the tremendous lack of leadership and example in our men today. Sometimes the celebrities even bemoan their stress through their songs - beneath the golden mask is a life of excessive work, taxation, and lack of privacy. Without the grace of God, isn't it surprising that many celebrities today turn to drugs, sexual immorality, or alcohol abuse to drown themselves in their sorrows and stress? 

Are we, the Church, ready to follow Christ, and have compassion for these people, without a shepherd? To provide food and drink where there is hunger, hope where there is desperation, and most importantly the keys to Heaven - the Gospel? Culture, as we know today, will be depraved and will continue to decay unless we plead God to make a difference and we do the duties He commanded us. We should be in this world, not of this world, and influence this world in a Godward direction, we being the salt of the earth.


----------



## jayce475

buggy said:


> My attitude towards music is more of an "indifferent" one. If I encounter a song that is particularly good, I would like it regardless of the genre. I do not care about what is the "latest" musical trends out there. I especially appreciate songs that talk about society-at-large, be it injustice, suffering, or moments of joy. Music is the expression of Man, and allows us to understand the sentiments of the people, and inspires me to remember the Word of God to make a difference in this society, for the sake of Christ.
> 
> While I try not to appreciate songs that celebrate sin (but with the temptation of the flesh), doesn't it show us the situations of society? Many popular songs today bemoan the over-commercialization of our lifestyle, the rise of hatred when Man persecutes others, and the tremendous lack of leadership and example in our men today. Sometimes the celebrities even bemoan their stress through their songs - beneath the golden mask is a life of excessive work, taxation, and lack of privacy. Without the grace of God, isn't it surprising that many celebrities today turn to drugs, sexual immorality, or alcohol abuse to drown themselves in their sorrows and stress?
> 
> Are we, the Church, ready to follow Christ, and have compassion for these people, without a shepherd? To provide food and drink where there is hunger, hope where there is desperation, and most importantly the keys to Heaven - the Gospel? Culture, as we know today, will be depraved and will continue to decay unless we plead God to make a difference and we do the duties He commanded us. We should be in this world, not of this world, and influence this world in a Godward direction, we being the salt of the earth.


 
In your opinion, would "We Are The World" be an okay song? Israel were never meant to go out of the way to help other nations, but the fatherless and widows and strangers within the nation. Not that Israel were forbidden from rendering any help at all to other nations, but that's not their main purpose. Likewise, it is not the purpose of the local church to go out of the way to help people out there. However, we must spare no efforts in helping those within the church. Helping others is good to do, and not forbidden by scriptures, but if we at any point in time make it the main point of the church and think that people can be in any way drawn closer to God due to these good works, we err. We evangelize as the apostles did, and that is to preach the gospel alone. If at any point we start mixing things up, we get this abhorrent concoction called the social gospel.

As previously mentioned, there is a world of difference between engaging songs with God's glory in view and simply reveling in them, just as how committing sin in a wilful manner is worlds apart from falling into sins.


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## CatechumenPatrick

Just a heads up, Christ the Center aka Reformed Forum just had a helpful audio conversation on thinking biblically about these and related topics: Reformed Forum - Reformed Theology Podcasts, Videos, Blogs and More -  The show is titled "A Theology of Culture."


----------



## Bookman

ColdSilverMoon said:


> bouletheou said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bob,
> 
> Quick question: Would you be as upset if the post was about our favorite opera or symphony performance?
> 
> Blessings,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good point, Pastor Carpenter. The real issue isn't the style of music so much as the content of the song and the motives of the person listening to it. I'm not a big fan of rock music, but I can imagine there is and can be edifying rock music. Likewise, I have been to operas with objectionable content on the stage and highly suggestive lyrics to accompany the beautiful melodies. On the other hand my brother was into Christian heavy metal as a teenager, and while I found the quality of music to be terrible it was hard to argue with much of the lyrical content. So I think it's highly simplistic to dismiss an entire genre of music over mere stylistic concerns. The real issue is examining our hearts to glorify God in all we do - including enjoying all manner of sounds that He ultimately created.
Click to expand...

 
With all due respect, it is not a good point. Rock has little if anything in common with a symphony or an opera. The foundation of rock music is the beat from pagan and tribal roots. There is absolutely nothing in rock music that is glorifying to God. And in response to other posts, legalism refers to the thought that one can be saved by following rules--it has nothing to do with the redeemed being obedient to their Savior.


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## Philip

> With all due respect, it is not a good point. Rock has little if anything in common with a symphony or an opera. The foundation of rock music is the beat from pagan and tribal roots. There is absolutely nothing in rock music that is glorifying to God.



Why are these beats and rhythms inherently evil? Seems to be a case of the genetic fallacy. Also remember that these beats and rhythms were the basis of the negro spirituals, which are some of the most Biblically-based songs out there.


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## JennyG

Enjoyment from music can never be equivalent to what is derived from nature or good food or (even) sport. It may be created by God in the primary sense but each individual piece of music, just as with literature and film and media in general, comes also from the mind of a sinful human being, and is going to be coloured by that person's world-view and spiritual state. that applies also to classical music, even the purely instrumental (think of thr _Rite of Spring_, or _Night on the Bare Mountain_) and to opera it applies in spades. 
I also absolutely agree with the one who posted, 


> I absolutely agree with the one who posted that we are in a major case of musical idolatry in this country. It has assumed an importance far out of proportion with its true value. I am convinced that there is more going on here than meets the eye, and that it is forming our souls in ways which are irrational, poorly understood, and detrimental to godliness


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## JBaldwin

JennyG said:


> Enjoyment from music can never be equivalent to what is derived from nature or good food or (even) sport. It may be created by God in the primary sense but each individual piece of music, just as with literature and film and media in general, comes also from the mind of a sinful human being, and is going to be coloured by that person's world-view and spiritual state. that applies also to classical music, even the purely instrumental (think of thr _Rite of Spring_, or _Night on the Bare Mountain_) and to opera it applies in spades.
> I also absolutely agree with the one who posted,
> 
> 
> 
> I absolutely agree with the one who posted that we are in a major case of musical idolatry in this country. It has assumed an importance far out of proportion with its true value. I am convinced that there is more going on here than meets the eye, and that it is forming our souls in ways which are irrational, poorly understood, and detrimental to godliness
Click to expand...

 
Based on this logic, would we not be able to enjoy nature because of the curse or good food because it is prepared by fallen men?


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## JennyG

I don't think so. The beauty of a tree or a mountain landscape owes nothing to any human intellectual input


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## DeborahtheJudge

I believe that just as God transforms pagans into believers, He transforms the creation (even originally pagan forms of music).
I also believe redeemed culture builds community with our brothers and sisters in Christ.


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## Tripel

Bookman said:


> The foundation of rock music is the beat from pagan and tribal roots. There is absolutely nothing in rock music that is glorifying to God.


 
At what point does a formation of notes and rhythms lose any chance of glorifying God? Is it when the music induces foot-tapping?


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## Philip

> Is it when the music induces foot-tapping?



Well, there go bluegrass and gospel music . . .


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## JennyG

DeborahtheJudge said:


> I believe that just as God transforms pagans into believers, He transforms the creation (even originally pagan forms of music).
> I also believe redeemed culture builds community with our brothers and sisters in Christ.


I think it would be truer to say _He is able_ to transform them. We'd better not assume he has done it. He is able to transform pagans into believers but for his own good purposes he leaves many as pagans.
I totally agree that redeemed culture, if it truly is so, builds community like nothing else!


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## JBaldwin

CatechumenPatrick said:


> Just a heads up, Christ the Center aka Reformed Forum just had a helpful audio conversation on thinking biblically about these and related topics: Reformed Forum - Reformed Theology Podcasts, Videos, Blogs and More -  The show is titled "A Theology of Culture."



I just listened to this. They make some excellent points. Thanks

---------- Post added at 03:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:42 PM ----------

I would like to add that I think so often we are quick to defend our point of view rather than filtering our point of view through Scripture. In other words, we are seeing things through our eyes only rather than asking God to help us see things as He seems them. Jesus, as our example, lived in the world, and yet was not taken in by the foolishness of the world. Yet He managed to enjoy what was going on around Him without partcipating in the sin of it. 

In other words, I think many times we indulge in the sin of our culture and excuse ourselves, not realizing that it's doing its damage on us.

For example, we can walk into a bar and sit down and have a drink and talk with someone and not sin, but we can get drunk or start telling filthy joikes and excuse ourselves because "it's not wrong to drink." or "it's not wrong to have a good laugh." 

It's fuzzier with music, because when it comes to the music itself, it's arguable about what is good or bad. Lyrics are a clear indication, and personally, I draw the line at the lyrics which in many styles of music are highly offensive.


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## Kiffin

Aww, the music debate... I still think Romans 14 applies to music. Some people were just "eating" food and others thought they were participating in "idol worship." There is nothing inherently evil in sounds just like there is nothing inherently evil in food. Sounds are signs that can be interpreted differently by different people. This is the situation addressed in Romans 14. The same situation (eating of meat) was seen by everyone, but it was interpreted differently by everyone. Thus, when it comes to "rock music", some people interpret it as "evil Satan music" where as others interpret it simply as "just another type of music." Let's grow in grace my brethren..


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## rbcbob

Kiffin said:


> Aww, the music debate... I still think Romans 14 applies to music. Some people were just "eating" food and others thought they were participating in "idol worship." There is nothing inherently evil in sounds just like there is nothing inherently evil in food. Sounds are signs that can be interpreted differently by different people. This is the situation addressed in Romans 14. The same situation (eating of meat) was seen by everyone, but it was interpreted differently by everyone. Thus, when it comes to "rock music", some people interpret it as "evil Satan music" where as others interpret it simply as "just another type of music." *Let's grow in grace my brethren.*.



Growing in grace is just the point of this thread brother. Have you read through the posts?


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## Kiffin

rbcbob said:


> Growing in grace is just the point of this thread brother. Have you read through the posts?


 
More like skim. Did I miss something that should hinder me from saying "Let's grow in grace"?


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## jayce475

Kiffin said:


> rbcbob said:
> 
> 
> 
> Growing in grace is just the point of this thread brother. Have you read through the posts?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More like skim. Did I miss something that should hinder me from saying "Let's grow in grace"?
Click to expand...

 
Semantics. We need to grow in grace in the way we convey our ideas, and we need to as grow in grace in seeking holiness. But if "growing in grace" means compromising on biblical separation, to me that's not growing, but regressing.


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## dudley

*The best concert I attended was many years ago*

The best concert I ever attended was the Paul McCartney concert in the Meadowlands Arena in New Jersey. It was in the mid 90's


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## rbcbob

J.C. Ryle in his classic work HOLINESS says



> “There are many real children of God who appear to know far more than they live up to, and see far more than they practice, and yet continue in this state for many years. …
> 
> These are they who get the notion into their minds, that it is impossible for all believers to be so very holy and very spiritual! They allow that eminent holiness is a beautiful thing. They like to read about it in books, and even to see it occasionally in others. But they do not think that all are meant to aim at so high a standard. At any rate, they seem to make up their minds it is beyond their reach. …
> 
> *These are they who are always trying to keep in with the world. They are ingenious in discovering reasons for not separating decidedly*, and in framing plausible excuses for attending questionable amusements, and keeping up questionable friendships.”



I believe that Ryle, here, expresses a kindred spirit with the Puritans.


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## LawrenceU

I've not posted in this thread yet. I did post in the thread that spawned this thread. I am very attuned musically. I grew up surrounded by music, am moved deeply by music, and have VERY wide tastes of appreciation. In the past few years I have had to realise that my tastes and appreciation may not necessarily honour God. The very concerts that I mentioned in the other thread I would now not attend. I used to enjoy them. Now, the thought of them and my interaction with them bothers me. Yes, it takes a great deal of skill to play guitar like Eddie VanHalen. Yes, Southern Rock can put some rhythms and harmonies together in such a way that it can make good bumps crawl up my back. Hearing a skilled tenor sing an aria can send my spirit soaring. There are certain symphonic pieces that can move me powerfully. Music is power. Note that I did not say music has power. It is power. There is almost nothing on earth that can elicit such strong reaction from a man as music.

Playing live bluegrass is one of my greatest joys. There is nothing like standing in a jam circle and just FEELING the chords lock as you play. But, even bluegrass has songs I cannot play. There are certain operas to which I can no longer listen. There are bands in the rock, jazz, CCM, country, and other genres that should be avoided, I think, simply because of what they are trying to do with the musical gifts that they have been given. That is not legalism. It is discernment. All too often we try to find justification for the things we enjoy that may be very close to the line, or over the line, of dishonouring our creator. It is almost as if we are five year olds trying to see just how much we can get away with doing without incurring the wrath of our parents.

Music is a gift from God. I communicates with something within us at a very deep level. Something as powerful as that should be treated with care.


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## rbcbob

LawrenceU said:


> I've not posted in this thread yet. I did post in the thread that spawned this thread. I am very attuned musically. I grew up surrounded by music, am moved deeply by music, and have VERY wide tastes of appreciation. In the past few years I have had to realise that my tastes and appreciation may not necessarily honour God. The very concerts that I mentioned in the other thread I would now not attend. I used to enjoy them. Now, the thought of them and my interaction with them bothers me. Yes, it takes a great deal of skill to play guitar like Eddie VanHalen. Yes, Southern Rock can put some rhythms and harmonies together in such a way that it can make good bumps crawl up my back. Hearing a skilled tenor sing an aria can send my spirit soaring. There are certain symphonic pieces that can move me powerfully. Music is power. Note that I did not say music has power. It is power. There is almost nothing on earth that can elicit such strong reaction from a man as music.
> 
> Playing live bluegrass is one of my greatest joys. There is nothing like standing in a jam circle and just FEELING the chords lock as you play. But, even bluegrass has songs I cannot play. There are certain operas to which I can no longer listen. There are bands in the rock, jazz, CCM, country, and other genres that should be avoided, I think, simply because of what they are trying to do with the musical gifts that they have been given. *That is not legalism. It is discernment.* All too often we try to find justification for the things we enjoy that may be very close to the line, or over the line, of dishonouring our creator. It is almost as if we are five year olds trying to see just how much we can get away with doing without incurring the wrath of our parents.
> 
> Music is a gift from God. I communicates with something within us at a very deep level. Something as powerful as that should be treated with care.



I agree.


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## Rich Koster

Let me throw a hot coal into the mix. Some of the worst stuff to sing along to is genred as Christian music. It is self centered, self glorifying, self aggrandizing....all in the name of Christ. This stuff is the most deceiving because it promotes idolatry in the name of Jesus. At least we know the stuff from Ozzy, Mick and Elton is from the world, the sharp razor needs to be applied to so called Christian radio/recordings.

BTW I was a avid concert goer before conversion. My memories of these events are just that....memories. I can give ratings and preferences on that just as on autos, refrigerators, toothpaste. By saying someone is a good musician or lyricist(poet) in no way do I account godliness to them, just that they excel at what they do. I wish that all of those who excel at these things would do it ALL for the glory of God, through the new birth.


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## Philip

Lawrence, I think I agree with you. Discernment means taking our music song-by-song (or piece-by-piece) rather than genre-by-genre or artist-by-artist.


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## AC.

Here's an interesting article on the subject 

“Rock ‘n’ Roll, the Bible, and the Mind” by Tom Allen


----------



## kvanlaan

> I would like to add that I think so often we are quick to defend our point of view rather than filtering our point of view through Scripture. In other words, we are seeing things through our eyes only rather than asking God to help us see things as He seems them. *Jesus, as our example, lived in the world, and yet was not taken in by the foolishness of the world. Yet He managed to enjoy what was going on around Him without partcipating in the sin of it.*



But that's just it, I don't think we can come up with an example of Christ actively participating in "the world". He was indeed an observer to the culture that was going on about Him, but he was not a part of 1st century AD "pop culture". He was drawing souls _*out*_ of it, but he was not part and parcel of it as a participant. So much of the simple act of participation in the popular culture is completely counter-Christian, I don't know how someone can ever get their head around "going with the flow" as harmless. 

What is pervasive in the culture of today? Materialism. Self-worship. Chasing after vanity in its numerous manifestations. 

"Hey, what's Brangelina up to today?"
"Hmm, I don't know. They haven't twitted about anything in over 18 hours."
"I read in Cosmo last week that they were splitting up. But that issue has been out for over a week now. Who knows what they're up to now..."
"Oh, there was an article in that issue about the new 64G ipod that not only surfs the web and records full technicolor video, it also blah blah blah blah."
"I know! The 32 gigabyte model is _so_ five minutes ago. I wouldn't use it in public if my life depended on it."

Yada yada yada. Thus pass the days of worldly existence numbers 5,654,325,437 and 5,654,325,438. No thank you. 

Christ came into the World to redeem souls out of it, not to passively marinate in it.


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## puritanhope

For those who currently listen to "rock music" you may consider this documentary: _Hell's Bells 2: The Spirit of Popular Music_. It's done by the same gents that did _Amazing Grace: The History and Theology of Calvinism_. It may seem pricey, but keep in mind it's 370 minutes long. Here are the reviews on Amazon, however, in this case it's cheaper to buy directly from the Apologetics Group.

As for me and my house, we are now purged of this god hating, self glorifying filth.


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian

kvanlaan said:


> I would like to add that I think so often we are quick to defend our point of view rather than filtering our point of view through Scripture. In other words, we are seeing things through our eyes only rather than asking God to help us see things as He seems them. *Jesus, as our example, lived in the world, and yet was not taken in by the foolishness of the world. Yet He managed to enjoy what was going on around Him without partcipating in the sin of it.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But that's just it, I don't think we can come up with an example of Christ actively participating in "the world". He was indeed an observer to the culture that was going on about Him, but he was not a part of 1st century AD "pop culture". He was drawing souls _*out*_ of it, but he was not part and parcel of it as a participant. So much of the simple act of participation in the popular culture is completely counter-Christian, I don't know how someone can ever get their head around "going with the flow" as harmless.
> 
> What is pervasive in the culture of today? Materialism. Self-worship. Chasing after vanity in its numerous manifestations.
> 
> "Hey, what's Brangelina up to today?"
> "Hmm, I don't know. They haven't twitted about anything in over 18 hours."
> "I read in Cosmo last week that they were splitting up. But that issue has been out for over a week now. Who knows what they're up to now..."
> "Oh, there was an article in that issue about the new 64G ipod that not only surfs the web and records full technicolor video, it also blah blah blah blah."
> "I know! The 32 gigabyte model is _so_ five minutes ago. I wouldn't use it in public if my live depended on it."
> 
> Yada yada yada. Thus pass the days of worldly existence numbers 5,654,325,437 and 5,654,325,438. No thank you.
> 
> Christ came into the World to redeem souls out of it, not to passively marinate in it.
Click to expand...

 
Excellent!


----------



## AC.

I'm 36 years young....

Rock music is my achilles....I've had no problem shunning the secular (i.e. Van Halen, Foo Fighters, etc.) and I go through periods where I listen to nothing but classical or phil keaggy instrumentals....but after a while I go back to craving the rocking guitars and driving beats of the rock genre, only now I gravitate towards the cleaner and more God-centered lyrics of Switchfoot and Relient K.....but at the end of the day it's probably all the same....when I listen to rock music I am not filled with humility and calm but rather adrenaline. I may feel good about the message but I don't know if the reaction triggered by the music helps my walk with Christ and Christian endeavors rather it probably serves as a barrier and distraction...something I'm wrestling with.....

good topic!

---------- Post added at 10:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:41 AM ----------

Hi puritanhope,

does the dvd deal with Christian rock too, I was a little hesitant to pick it up...the cover looks a little disturbing...I do own 2 dvd's from the apologetics group and they are excellent...the one on Calvin and 'the real Jesus'




puritanhope said:


> For those who currently listen to "rock music" you may consider this documentary: _Hell's Bells 2: The Spirit of Popular Music_. It's done by the same gents that did _Amazing Grace: The History and Theology of Calvinism_. It may seem pricey, but keep in mind it's 370 minutes long. Here are the reviews on Amazon, however, in this case it's cheaper to buy directly from the Apologetics Group.
> 
> As for me and my house, we are now purged of this god hating, self glorifying filth.


----------



## rbcbob

Anthony, I appreciate your insights. I had not considered the residual effects of rock relative to gospel oriented lyrics.


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## Dr. Bob Gonzales

"Worldliness" is simply another term for sin (see 1 John 2:15-17). Sin is, in turn, defined by Scripture and _Scripture alone._ I fear that many who label certain things like music genres "worldly" do so on the basis of personal opinion or preference rather than grounding their censure in Scripture alone. For a definition of "worldliness" and some practical ramifications, see *What In the World Is Worldliness?: Providing Some Biblical Clarity on a Misused Term.* 

Your servant,


----------



## rbcbob

Dr. Bob Gonzales said:


> "Worldliness" is simply another term for sin (see 1 John 2:15-17). Sin is, in turn, defined by Scripture and _Scripture alone._ I fear that many who label certain things like music genres "worldly" do so on the basis of personal opinion or preference rather than grounding their censure in Scripture alone. For a definition of "worldliness" and some practical ramifications, see *What In the World Is Worldliness?: Providing Some Biblical Clarity on a Misused Term.*
> 
> Your servant,


 
Dear Doctor,

Perhaps, at this late entry into this particular discussion, you have not availed yourself of the opportunity to read through the many posts herein. To assume at this juncture that the serious and earnest wrestlings of the participants have muddled on in ignorance of the relevance that worldliness has to Rock Music is unfortunate.

In a related thread I posted the following, added here for your perusal.

Titus 2:12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly (κοσμικας) lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

We need to understand “worldly” in context. The Greek word for world κοσμος has many meanings. Pertinent to this discussion I would take Thayers definitions #6 and 7.

The world- κοσμος

6. "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ" (cf. Winer's Grammar, 26): John 7:7; 14:27 (John 17:27); 15:18f; 16:8,20,33; 17:9, 14f 25; 1 Cor. 1:21; 6:2; 11:32; 2 Cor. 7:10; James 1:27; 1 Pet. 5:9; 2 Pet. 1:4; 2:20; 1 John 3:1,13; 4:5; 5:19; of the aggregate of ungodly and wicked men in O. T. times, Heb. 11:38; in Noah's time, …, John 8:23; 15:19; 17:14, 16; 1 John 4:5;… to speak in accordance with the world's character and mode of thinking, 1 John 4:5; …

7. "worldly affairs; the aggregate of things earthly; the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments, riches, advantages, pleasures, etc., which, although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ": Gal. 6:14; 1 John 2:16f; 3:17; ……..
John 17:16 "They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

James 4:4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

2 Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world -- the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life -- is not of the Father but is of the world.


Now the apostles, when they warned against THE WORLD or WORLDLINESS did not give a lengthy qualification as to which of the many senses that κοσμος they were using it. They fully expected their readers to understand.

Similarly we need to understand which sense applies to the discussion at hand. The Scriptures plainly warn us against the world and worldliness. There is obviously an objective, recognizable content to the thing which we are warned to shun.

I have stated in the post on Separation from the World :

Should we be comfortable (not to mention take pleasure) in a setting
• Where the philosophy, and thus the lyrics, of the artists use God and our Redeemer’s name as a swear word
• where the world-view of the artists and fans is opposed to God and His law
• where fornication, adultery, drug abuse are celebrated
• where the God ordained standards of family, selfless love, and self control are notoriously absent
• where women are degraded as objects for throw away pleasures

Where in all of this are the called out people of God? Where the new nature? Where the conformity to Christ? Where the Sanctifying power of the Gospel and the Holy Spirit? Where are the New Creations in Christ?
The worldliness of which the Scripture warns is patently part and parcel in the “world of Rock n’ Roll. 

To deny this is to be disingenuous.

And from post #72 in this thread you might consider the following:

J.C. Ryle in his classic work HOLINESS says

“There are many real children of God who appear to know far more than they live up to, and see far more than they practice, and yet continue in this state for many years. …

These are they who get the notion into their minds, that it is impossible for all believers to be so very holy and very spiritual! They allow that eminent holiness is a beautiful thing. They like to read about it in books, and even to see it occasionally in others. But they do not think that all are meant to aim at so high a standard. At any rate, they seem to make up their minds it is beyond their reach. …

*These are they who are always trying to keep in with the world. They are ingenious in discovering reasons for not separating decidedly, and in framing plausible excuses for attending questionable amusements, and keeping up questionable friendships.*”


*I believe that Ryle, here, expresses a kindred spirit with the Puritans.*


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## py3ak

kvanlaan said:


> He was indeed an observer to the culture that was going on about Him, but he was not a part of 1st century AD "pop culture". He was drawing souls _*out*_ of it, but he was not part and parcel of it as a participant. So much of the simple act of participation in the popular culture is completely counter-Christian, I don't know how someone can ever get their head around "going with the flow" as harmless.


 
Was there was such a thing as "pop culture" back then? I would distinguish both folk culture and high culture from "pop culture", and it's difficult to imagine "pop culture" without capitalism and a certain level of technology; or perhaps it's just that "pop culture" from every epoch is the most ephemeral production, and therefore, until our days, the least likely to be preserved. Anyway, I don't mean to disrail the thread - just wondering if "pop culture" really has an analogue in the distant past (though I suppose paid but essentially shallow performers and producers are pretty much a constant of city life).


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## Kiffin

rbcbob said:


> Should we be comfortable (not to mention take pleasure) in a setting
> • Where the philosophy, and thus the lyrics, of the artists use God and our Redeemer’s name as a swear word
> • where the world-view of the artists and fans is opposed to God and His law
> • where fornication, adultery, drug abuse are celebrated
> • where the God ordained standards of family, selfless love, and self control are notoriously absent
> • where women are degraded as objects for throw away pleasures



But once again, this only represents a segment of "rock music."


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## kvanlaan

> Was there was such a thing as "pop culture" back then? I would distinguish both folk culture and high culture from "pop culture", and it's difficult to imagine "pop culture" without capitalism and a certain level of technology; or perhaps it's just that "pop culture" from every epoch is the most ephemeral production, and therefore, until our days, the least likely to be preserved. Anyway, I don't mean to disrail the thread - just wondering if "pop culture" really has an analogue in the distant past (though I suppose paid but essentially shallow performers and producers are pretty much a constant of city life).



I guess by 'pop culture' I am referring as much to the general entertainment/gossip/accepted norms of the day as anything else. For instance, I recall hearing that while Shakespeare was alive, and his plays were being performed at the Globe theatre in London, the most popular entertainment of the day was still bear-baiting. The bear-baiting I would thus count as part of the 'pop culture' of that day, but would likely also throw Shakespeare's plays into the mix. Whatever makes up the secular distraction mosaic of the day for the common man, would, under this definition, be considered part of the 'pop culture'.


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## buggy

It has dawned to me after reading Col. 3 that the key to fighting worldliness is to set our affections on the Lord Himself, but more importantly to give thanks to everything that God have given to us. 

There are too many things today where we take for granted. Many of us remember to give thanks to God before we eat. But how about extending it to other areas - be it work, leisure, spouse, children, friends, or anything? And it's not just paying lip service by saying "thanks". If we truly appreciate and are thankful to whatever God has given to us, we will treasure it and use them more wisely without setting our affection on them, knowing that the same God who gave us these gifts may take them away anytime and that He has a purpose for giving them to us.

Thanksgiving reminds us who is really in charge of our life and is thus a very powerful weapon against worldliness, and pride of Man - the root of worldliness. I believe we should think of this when we talk about "separation".


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## jayce475

Dr. Bob Gonzales said:


> "Worldliness" is simply another term for sin (see 1 John 2:15-17). Sin is, in turn, defined by Scripture and _Scripture alone._ I fear that many who label certain things like music genres "worldly" do so on the basis of personal opinion or preference rather than grounding their censure in Scripture alone. For a definition of "worldliness" and some practical ramifications, see *What In the World Is Worldliness?: Providing Some Biblical Clarity on a Misused Term.*
> 
> Your servant,


 
Hi Dr Bob,

Could you then provide some clear guidelines on what kind of biblical separation you would prescribe to your churchmen? Does it purely take place at the heart level and should a young believer be given the liberty to enjoy any aspect of pop culture he likes as long as he attempts to do so with God in mind regardless of how spiritually insensitive and undiscerning he is? 

You have pretty much written off Ps Peter Masters as promoting unbiblical legalism on the basis of your different understand of biblical separation from him without actually giving a full treatment on why your form of biblical separation differs from his. If you would be willing to give an article treating what biblical separation really means from your perspective, then the true differences between those whom you deem to be "fundamentalist" and "legalistic" and those as yourself may then be made much clearer.


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## py3ak

kvanlaan said:


> Was there was such a thing as "pop culture" back then? I would distinguish both folk culture and high culture from "pop culture", and it's difficult to imagine "pop culture" without capitalism and a certain level of technology; or perhaps it's just that "pop culture" from every epoch is the most ephemeral production, and therefore, until our days, the least likely to be preserved. Anyway, I don't mean to disrail the thread - just wondering if "pop culture" really has an analogue in the distant past (though I suppose paid but essentially shallow performers and producers are pretty much a constant of city life).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess by 'pop culture' I am referring as much to the general entertainment/gossip/accepted norms of the day as anything else. For instance, I recall hearing that while Shakespeare was alive, and his plays were being performed at the Globe theatre in London, the most popular entertainment of the day was still bear-baiting. The bear-baiting I would thus count as part of the 'pop culture' of that day, but would likely also throw Shakespeare's plays into the mix. Whatever makes up the secular distraction mosaic of the day for the common man, would, under this definition, be considered part of the 'pop culture'.
Click to expand...

 
That effectively blurs any distinction between various forms of culture, and so makes the "pop" prefix rather unnecessary.


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## kvanlaan

> That effectively blurs any distinction between various forms of culture, and so makes the "pop" prefix rather unnecessary.



I used the example of the bear-baiting/Shakespeare because the common man participated in both. The pit at the Globe was filled with 'groundlings', common folk who paid a penny to participate in otherwise high-brow Shakespearean plays. It was a 'popular' distraction for all classes. 

Thus I'm not sure if I am guilty of superfluousness or imprecision (or both), but if we use this as a general idea of pop culture...



> Popular culture (commonly known as pop culture) is the totality of ideas, perspectives, attitudes, memes,[1] images and other phenomena that are deemed preferred per an informal consensus within the mainstream of a given culture, specifically Western culture of the early to mid 20th century and the emerging global mainstream of the late 20th to 21st century. Heavily influenced by mass media, this collection of ideas permeates the everyday lives of the society. By contrast, folklore refers to the cultural mainstream of more local or pre-industrial societies.



...then I guess I'm off. But the concept still stands. Christ lived as a Jew, that much is true, but followed the Law as it _should_ be followed, not following it as a Pharisaical Jew. Thus I think an argument can still be made for Christ living outside of Jewish culture on several levels - and that was His _own_ culture, never mind Roman or Greek. We simply don't see Him 'in the trenches' of secular society - He was above that, and went into the World to redeem and witness, not to hang out.

For instance, though we never see Christ eating 'unclean' animals, we see a vision to Peter that made it clear that this element of Jewish culture was not necessary. Thus I would say we can tie this to Christ being outside of the prevailing culture even on this level. He ate with Zaccheus, who had just climbed a tree whose fruit was fed to pigs, and was thus ceremonially unclean (and was a tax collector anyway). Were he living as per the accepted culture of his day, he would not have done so. These are just a couple of aspects of the argument (among others), but I think that we can safely say that He divorced Himself from the prevailing culture.


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## rbcbob

Kiffin said:


> rbcbob said:
> 
> 
> 
> Should we be comfortable (not to mention take pleasure) in a setting
> • Where the philosophy, and thus the lyrics, of the artists use God and our Redeemer’s name as a swear word
> • where the world-view of the artists and fans is opposed to God and His law
> • where fornication, adultery, drug abuse are celebrated
> • where the God ordained standards of family, selfless love, and self control are notoriously absent
> • where women are degraded as objects for throw away pleasures
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But once again, this only represents a segment of "rock music."
Click to expand...


*My brief descriptives are, as a rule, intrinsic to Rock as a genre. There can be exceptions. But it is of the very nature of exceptions to stand out from the general rule.*


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## jayce475

After reading the thread on legalism and gaining a better understanding of it, I am convinced there should not be any charges of legalism being laid in this thread when many of us express our views against pop culture and rock music. It's never about binding anyone's conscience, but rather honouring God in the best way that we understand scriptures command us to. Ultimately, it's a doctrinal issue with regards to the application of biblical separation and there's little agreement between the two sides on how exactly biblical separation from the world ought to take place.


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## BradyC

Here's an idea, let’s not only avoid rock concerts, let’s not listen to any music unless it is K-Love, let’s not read any literature unless it is the Bible, let’s not watch any films unless it is Fireproof, let’s not watch any television unless it is Gospel-cartoons, let’s not play any games unless it is Bible trivia, let’s not drink anything unless it is unfermented, let’s not chew or smoke anything unless it is nicotine free, let’s not eat anything unless it is healthy…on second thought, let’s just live in monasteries.

The whole issue is really quite simple. If it is going to bother your conscience to attend a rock concert, then don’t go, but do not start binding the consciences of others (who do not share the same convictions) with man made boundaries. Should we encourage others Christians to be careful and discerning and reflective when working through these types of issues? Of course. Do many Christians haphazardly approach these issues and abuse their freedom as Christians? Of course. But that doesn’t mean we can begin declaring law where God has not. Love God and do as you please.

In Christ,
Brady


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## rbcbob

BradyC said:


> Here's an idea, let’s not only avoid rock concerts, let’s not listen to any music unless it is K-Love, let’s not read any literature unless it is the Bible, let’s not watch any films unless it is Fireproof, let’s not watch any television unless it is Gospel-cartoons, let’s not play any games unless it is Bible trivia, let’s not drink anything unless it is unfermented, let’s not chew or smoke anything unless it is nicotine free, let’s not eat anything unless it is healthy…on second thought, let’s just live in monasteries.
> 
> The whole issue is really quite simple. If it is going to bother your conscience to attend a rock concert, then don’t go, but do not start binding the consciences of others (who do not share the same convictions) with man made boundaries. Should we encourage others Christians to be careful and discerning and reflective when working through these types of issues? Of course. Do many Christians haphazardly approach these issues and abuse their freedom as Christians? Of course. But that doesn’t mean we can begin declaring law where God has not. Love God and do as you please.
> 
> In Christ,
> Brady



Brady,
Brother I must say that such a response is indicative of a naiveté in regards to both one's own heart as well as the responsibility of the body of Christ to one another.

*Love God and do as you please !?!* 

Proverbs 28:26 26 He who trusts in his own heart is a fool, But whoever walks wisely will be delivered.

And what of the imperatives in the NT telling Christians to help one another in the way of holiness?

Hebrews 10:23-25 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

Romans 15:14 Now I myself am confident concerning you, my brethren, that you also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Hebrews 3:13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.


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## BradyC

> Brady,
> Brother I must say that such a response is indicative of a naiveté in regards to both one's own heart as well as the responsibility of the body of Christ to one another.



I am sorry that you feel my response is naïve. I assure you I know the nature of my own heart’s wickedness and the specific areas that are difficult for me, hence the reason I create boundaries for myself as well. However, I do not force them on other believers who do not struggle with those temptations. My responsibility to the body of Christ is to help them grow in holiness which may include helping others set certain boundaries in areas where they are weak…however my responsibility is not to dictate what is law and what is not.



> *Love God and do as you please !?!*
> 
> Proverbs 28:26 26 He who trusts in his own heart is a fool, But whoever walks wisely will be delivered.



I am not sure exactly what you are inferring from Augustine’s statement, but by your bolding his statement, excessive use of exclamation marks and proof-texting a verse, I surmise it is something negative. 



> And what of the imperatives in the NT telling Christians to help one another in the way of holiness?
> 
> Hebrews 10:23-25 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
> 
> Romans 15:14 Now I myself am confident concerning you, my brethren, that you also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.
> 
> Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
> 
> Hebrews 3:13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.



Bob, I am glad that you are pursuing personal holiness, and that you are creating boundaries for yourself and are sensitive to those boundaries. If they are helping you grow in the knowledge of the Lord and keeping you from temptation than I am grateful and would encourage you to keep doing so. However, just realize that not everyone shares the same convictions over these matters.


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## jayce475

BradyC said:


> Here's an idea, let’s not only avoid rock concerts, let’s not listen to any music unless it is K-Love, let’s not read any literature unless it is the Bible, let’s not watch any films unless it is Fireproof, let’s not watch any television unless it is Gospel-cartoons, let’s not play any games unless it is Bible trivia, let’s not drink anything unless it is unfermented, let’s not chew or smoke anything unless it is nicotine free, let’s not eat anything unless it is healthy…on second thought, let’s just live in monasteries.
> 
> The whole issue is really quite simple. If it is going to bother your conscience to attend a rock concert, then don’t go, but do not start binding the consciences of others (who do not share the same convictions) with man made boundaries. Should we encourage others Christians to be careful and discerning and reflective when working through these types of issues? Of course. Do many Christians haphazardly approach these issues and abuse their freedom as Christians? Of course. But that doesn’t mean we can begin declaring law where God has not. Love God and do as you please.
> 
> In Christ,
> Brady


 
Brady, perhaps you would like to take a closer look at the responses first. This is a caricature of our position.


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## Dr. Bob Gonzales

Bob and Jason,

I'm afraid I find myself if agreement with Brady. He hit the nail on the head, and I've yet to hear a persuasive rebuttal to his remarks. In reply to Bob's comments: 

(1) I don't deny that the lyrics and lifestyle of many rock-n-roll musicians is sub-biblical and, therefore, not commendable. However, the lyrics and lifestyle of many Christian artists who employ the rock genre are biblical and commendable. Consequently, to censure unqualifiedly the rock genre as "worldly" is a genetic fallacy and betrays a tenuous "guilt by association" argument. 

(2) Even if one grants that the lyrics and lifestyle of much rock-n-roll music is sub- or anti-Christian, that doesn't necessitate complete isolation. A strong case could be made that the vast majority of TV shows and movies are sub- or anti-biblical (indeed, one might legitimately argue that TV has ruined more lives than music), but I rarely hear Reformed pastors demanding that their congregations jettison their TV sets in order to practice "biblical separation." Biblical discernment, not isolationism, is what's needed.

(3) Weaker brothers may, because of a scrupulous conscience or because of the lack of spiritual maturity, need to avoid certain activities that would become stumbling blocks to them. Accordingly, they are free to formulate "personal standards," which may be provisional and circumstantial. But to universalize one's personal standards in order to bind the consciences of all other believers violates biblical principle and is a form of legalism and man-made religion. 

(4) I once worshiped at the idol of Led Zeppelin, AC/DC, and Van Halen. I how see these bands for what they are. I reject much of the philosophy behind their lyrics. But the doctrine of the _imago Dei_ and common grace has helped me appreciate the musical talent in secular bands. Consequently, I now can enjoy the music of Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, and even Jimmy Hendrix much like I enjoy what's commendable in Star Wars _while rejecting what's anti-Christian_. I don't buy into the the sinful philosophy of these rock bands anymore than I endorse "the force." But I think I'm mature enough to separate the chaff from the wheat. If you guys feel you lack that maturity, then by all means play it safe and refrain. But don't erect your extra-biblical fence in your neighbor's backyard. Before his Master he will stand or fall. 

Cordially,


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## kvanlaan

> Here's an idea, let’s not only avoid rock concerts, let’s not listen to any music unless it is K-Love, let’s not read any literature unless it is the Bible, let’s not watch any films unless it is Fireproof, let’s not watch any television unless it is Gospel-cartoons, let’s not play any games unless it is Bible trivia, let’s not drink anything unless it is unfermented, let’s not chew or smoke anything unless it is nicotine free, let’s not eat anything unless it is healthy…on second thought, let’s just live in monasteries.



That's not it at all. Living in a monastery prevents you from fulfilling the great commission. As a community of believers, no one is advocating that. But give me Christ, not culture. Show me where Christ partook of the culture in a purely recreational way. Can you? I don't think it's there. We go into the World to witness, not to hang out. Whether you like to admit it or not, your interaction with the World in terms of the music/TV/movies you partake of leave you "spotted", a la James 1:27. Yes, it is just a little at a time, you probably don't even notice it. But in doing so, you are likely standing in the slippery places, though you do not know it. Such a position needs only your own weight to bring you down. Think well on it, and accept this advice not as binding your conscience to control you, but to warn you in brotherly love; that's all it is. Those who take up the opposite position to you are not trying to put you on a diet of Mournful Oatmeal (Calvinism in a Box) and take all fun from your life. No, we've instead seen the devil and want you to know that he's right behind the next song/film and he will take you down if you aren't careful.

We weaker brothers must be waded through on your way to the misty mountain top. It might serve to stop to listen every once in a while, though...


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## jayce475

Dr. Bob Gonzales said:


> Bob and Jason,
> 
> I'm afraid I find myself if agreement with Brady. He hit the nail on the head, and I've yet to hear a persuasive rebuttal to his remarks. In reply to Bob's comments:
> 
> (1) I don't deny that the lyrics and lifestyle of many rock-n-roll musicians is sub-biblical and, therefore, not commendable. However, the lyrics and lifestyle of many Christian artists who employ the rock genre are biblical and commendable. Consequently, to censure unqualifiedly the rock genre as "worldly" is a genetic fallacy and betrays a tenuous "guilt by association" argument.
> 
> (2) Even if one grants that the lyrics and lifestyle of much rock-n-roll music is sub- or anti-Christian, that doesn't necessitate complete isolation. A strong case could be made that the vast majority of TV shows and movies are sub- or anti-biblical (indeed, one might legitimately argue that TV has ruined more lives than music), but I rarely hear Reformed pastors demanding that their congregations jettison their TV sets in order to practice "biblical separation." Biblical discernment, not isolationism, is what's needed.
> 
> (3) Weaker brothers may, because of a scrupulous conscience or because of the lack of spiritual maturity, need to avoid certain activities that would become stumbling blocks to them. Accordingly, they are free to formulate "personal standards," which may be provisional and circumstantial. But to universalize one's personal standards in order to bind the consciences of all other believers violates biblical principle and is a form of legalism and man-made religion.
> 
> (4) I once worshiped at the idol of Led Zeppelin, AC/DC, and Van Halen. I how see these bands for what they are. I reject much of the philosophy behind their lyrics. But the doctrine of the _imago Dei_ and common grace has helped me appreciate the musical talent in secular bands. Consequently, I now can enjoy the music of Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, and even Jimmy Hendrix much like I enjoy what's commendable in Star Wars _while rejecting what's anti-Christian_. I don't buy into the the sinful philosophy of these rock bands anymore than I endorse "the force." But I think I'm mature enough to separate the chaff from the wheat. If you guys feel you lack that maturity, then by all means play it safe and refrain. But don't erect your extra-biblical fence in your neighbor's backyard. Before his Master he will stand or fall.
> 
> Cordially,


 
Hi Dr Bob,

We are all presenting the same arguments over and over again and what you've added is pretty much also similar. Biblical separation as defined by one side is condemned by the other as legalism, conscience-binding and man-made laws, while the biblical separation advocated by the other side is deemed by the former to be dangerous and carnal. The Puritans are not infallible, but I do think that they have it more right than many others in their battles for holiness. Perhaps we should rest our respective cases in this thread and let the hearers be prayerfully convicted of what the truth is by themselves.


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## rbcbob

jayce475 said:


> Perhaps we should rest our respective cases in this thread and let the hearers be prayerfully convicted of what the truth is by themselves.



I agree


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## Herald

This thread has gone the way of all things.


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