# Calvinists, Let’s Calm Down



## JM

Parchment and Pen Calvinists, Let’s Calm Down

Calvinists bad:


> I see less Christ-like character in many Calvinistic brethren than I do in just about any other tradition in Christianity.



Arminians (characteristically) good:


> I have also noticed lately that some of the most (formally) gracious Arminians are beginning to change, showing a deep antagonism for those whom they have tried to respect. I see them lashing out uncharacteristically.





I just finished downloading the lectures from "The Theology Program" and found the above on Mr. Patton's blog.


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## LawrenceU

I would have to say that I agree with him about the vitriolic nature of many Calvinists, especially those who are 'new' to the theology. Debate doesn't change a heart, and anger doesn't help communication.


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## Whitefield

LawrenceU said:


> I would have to say that I agree with him about the vitriolic nature of many Calvinists, especially those who are 'new' to the theology. Debate doesn't change a heart, and anger doesn't help communication.



Yes, does it seem to you that many "new" Calvinists go through an angry period?


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## MrMerlin777

I believe (and have experienced in my own walk) that most new Calvinists go through a "cage phase" (a time when they'd do the kingdom a favor if they'd just lock themselves away in a cage somewhere). One's zeal for truth overides one's tact and common courtesy to the point where ascerbic exchange replaces edifying dialogue. It happened in me, and I've seen it firsthand in others.


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## TheFleshProfitethNothing

People are who they are, and change will come by the Spirit of God, in the believer...unfortunately, many believe anger isn't characteristic of Christ and the Apostles...well, maybe you all need to read a bit more.

But, with that said, it should only be when needed to drive away wolves in sheeps clothing; those that are deceiving (trying to, anyway) young believers...

I must admit though, when preaching, one MUST consider to whom they are preaching, and that those that are lost sinners, should be approached respectfully, and we not be suprised at they antagonism.

Those professing a false Christ...well at times even I get nasty!


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## Idelette

Whitefield said:


> LawrenceU said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would have to say that I agree with him about the vitriolic nature of many Calvinists, especially those who are 'new' to the theology. Debate doesn't change a heart, and anger doesn't help communication.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, does it seem to you that many "new" Calvinists go through an angry period?
Click to expand...


Its seems as though many "new" Calvinists go through a prideful period if anything....its so easy to become puffed up, and when we finally come to this "new understanding" we feel that we are obligated to _TEACH_ others and point out their errors! I think its pride which often leads to anger and arguing with others unfortunately! But, thank God....He humbles His people over time!


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## CredoFidoSpero

Actually, it was an angry, "new" Arminian/Pelagian who set me on the road to Calvinism. Not his intent, I'm sure .


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## Pilgrim72

Not sure if this applies, but about 12 years ago, while I was debating whether to leave the church I was at (Calvary Chapel), I met a bunch of guys from Bahnsen's old church. And I was so turned off by Presbyterianism, that I told myself I would never join a church that produced such horrible people. They were all dripping with arrogance and self-superiority, it made me sick to be in their presence.
I'm not saying the whole church was this way, just everyone I met from that church was. 
Oh wait, I did meet Gentry, and he was a very nice guy.

Anyway, by God's grace, He led me to a wonderful OPC, where the people were quite hospitable and humble. I thank the Lord that not all Calvinists are self-righteous, arrogant elitests.


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## DMcFadden

I can identify with what he writes about "internet Calvinists." Some of the most vitriolic and ugly fights on the net take place _with_, _between_, or _at the hands of_ Calvinists. This is to our shame. Some of the most "Christian" men of God I know are either Arminian or Pentecostal. Do I believe that they are wrong? Duh! But, it embarrasses me when they evidence the fruit of the Spirit so much more evidently than some of us more theologically correct types. And, no, I'm not talking about the "nice" Mormon, Buddhist, Muslim, or Jew. I'm speaking of people in Christian churches who read the same book, pray to the same God, depend upon the same Jesus for their standing with God, and look forward to his return. It shames us that our more correct theology is not matched at times by verbal maturity in what we say to other folks (and to each other!) on the internet. I wouldn't phrase it exactly like Patton does, but find much to nod my head to in his description . . . sadly.


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## MrMerlin777

Note the exchange of comments at the end of the blog article. in my opinion it illustrates very well just what the author was refering to in his blog.


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## ReformedChapin

I came from Calvary Chapel as well, I never experienced the cage period although I have always had a reputation for being blunt. I know when I become reformed I shared the DoG with several of my CC friends and many open their eyes to it.


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## steven-nemes

Perhaps sometimes its simply the utter blindness of the Arminians to such plain and simple texts as Romans 8, Ephesians 1, etc., that leads a young Calvinist to be so hostile and angry during debate. Surely anyone here can admit that it is a bit frustrating to discuss theology with people who endlessly qualify text after text that are so clearly teaching the opposite...


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## Whitefield

steven-nemes said:


> Perhaps sometimes its simply the utter blindness of the Arminians to such plain and simple texts as Romans 8, Ephesians 1, etc., that leads a young Calvinist to be so hostile and angry during debate. Surely anyone here can admit that it is a bit frustrating to discuss theology with people who endlessly qualify text after text that are so clearly teaching the opposite...



Maturity with teach the young Calvinist to back up and try a different avenue of approach (attack).


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## ReformedChapin

Joshua said:


> I think those are just things defeated Arminians say about Calvinists.
> 
> Just kidding . . . sorta



Most arminians I meet only pose rhetorical attacks against Calvin and Calvinists. I rarely see serious exegesis posed against Calvinism, I suppose because many contemporary Christians are ignorant about the issues and are arminian by default.


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## awretchsavedbygrace

In His Grip said:


> Whitefield said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LawrenceU said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would have to say that I agree with him about the vitriolic nature of many Calvinists, especially those who are 'new' to the theology. Debate doesn't change a heart, and anger doesn't help communication.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, does it seem to you that many "new" Calvinists go through an angry period?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Its seems as though many "new" Calvinists go through a prideful period if anything....its so easy to become puffed up, and when we finally come to this "new understanding" we feel that we are obligated to _TEACH_ others and point out their errors! I think its pride which often leads to anger and arguing with others unfortunately! But, thank God....He humbles His people over time!
Click to expand...




Very true.


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## ColdSilverMoon

DMcFadden said:


> I can identify with what he writes about "internet Calvinists." Some of the most vitriolic and ugly fights on the net take place _with_, _between_, or _at the hands of_ Calvinists. This is to our shame. Some of the most "Christian" men of God I know are either Arminian or Pentecostal. Do I believe that they are wrong? Duh! But, it embarrasses me when they evidence the fruit of the Spirit so much more evidently than some of us more theologically correct types. And, no, I'm not talking about the "nice" Mormon, Buddhist, Muslim, or Jew. *I'm speaking of people in Christian churches who read the same book, pray to the same God, depend upon the same Jesus for their standing with God, and look forward to his return. It shames us that our more correct theology is not matched at times by verbal maturity in what we say to other folks (and to each other!) on the internet. * I wouldn't phrase it exactly like Patton does, but find much to nod my head to in his description . . . sadly.





I think Calvinists often forget we're ultimately on the same team with Arminians, Pentecostals, etc. They may be wrong in their theology on some points and this leads to broader problems that should be addressed, but in the final analysis they are indeed brothers and sisters. I would never speak to my familial brother in the vitriolic way some Calvinists speak to non-Calvinists...


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## Calvinist Cowboy

I went through the phase. I was going to a local mega-church and saw (and still see) error everywhere. I was aflame to teach as many as I could the DoG. After about six months, I realized how arrogant I was being.

I still desire to teach others, not just the DoG, but the whole counsel of God. I no longer want to see mere "converts" to Calvinism, but men and women growing in love with Christ. I hope I've learned some humility since those fiery first days.


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## Prufrock

One observation I might make (if this doesn't make me sound too rascally!) is that I think it has little to do with Calvinism _per se._ From observing myself and those around me, I think one of our inherited sinful tendencies is an intellectual "I'm right, you're wrong!" pride which comes from embracing _any_ concrete ideology, especially when either we are young, or it is young to us. It just so happens that, within the current evangelical climate, Reformed theology is one of the few intellectually _rigorous_ "philosophies" held by the common man; and, being the most common and visible rigorous system of doctrine (as opposed to perhaps less intellectually demanding systems -- I mean, really, who is going to be confrontational about truths in a fundamentally egalitarian or relativistic belief system?!), we get singled out. But I would contend that any intellectual, philosophical, academic or religious system which has a robust, detailed and nuanced dogma will produce the same results. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing; and, though I am still far from this state, my observations suggest those with more knowledge are much more temperate. As Reformed Christians, we have the added benefit that the Spirit himself will also make us more temperate.


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## steven-nemes

Whitefield said:


> Maturity with teach the young Calvinist to back up and try a different avenue of approach (attack).



This is true, that over time a Calvinist learns how to discuss things with other persons in a less angry way.

But what I'm proposing is that perhaps it is not _always_ pride or whatever on the part of the Calvinist. I think it very possible that a person be frustrated at another for missing the point of a very clear text or stubbornly clinging to a bad interpretation of a verse or two. Now, it is clearly improper to explode in anger, or to call another names, just because his eyes are closed and yours are opened, but I am doubtful to the claim that it is _always_ pride on the part of the Calvinist that causes the hateful behavior.


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## OPC'n

I'm tired of Calvinist being accused of being arrogant and nasty. I think a better thing to say is that some people who hold to the doctrines of grace have a lot more grace in which to partake....in other words they were arrogant and nasty before accepting the doctrine of grace which Calvin put forth. Calvinism didn't make them that way they were that way to begin with.


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## jandrusk

I think it is important to note that just because someone claims to be a calvinist or an arminian for that matter, it does not mean that they are actually a christian. I'm currently reading a book by Jonathan Edwards amply called, "Religious Affections". One of the main tenets is that the devil can produce in those who are not saved, essentially an external replica that is found in devout saints. I became a calvinist about a year ago, but it was not until I was what I believe to be a fairly well grounded Christian. 

Just remember Calvinist is not necessarily synonymous with a redeemed, elect, sanctified saint of Jesus Christ.


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## Rich Koster

in my opinion the person that most new Calvinists are mad at are THEMSELVES for being duped for a while. That can be unfortunately transfered to the next cluster of people they discuss doctrine with.


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## JM

I don't see the blog making a distinction between new and mature Calvinists.


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## Calvinist Cowboy

"Old" Calvinists (that is, they've been Calvinist a long time; folks like R.C. Sproul, Al Mohler, J.I. Packer, etc.) are some of the most gracious people out there.


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## MrMerlin777

The blog seems to be refering to "internet Calvinists" I think alot of these folks probably would fit into the new Calvinist category as many are most likely young and not too many Christians are "raised Calvinist" these days.


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## Rich Koster

JM said:


> I don't see the blog making a distinction between new and mature Calvinists.



Some of us are sharing experience. Youthful zeal without wisdom often gets people over the top and beat to the bottom.


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## kvanlaan

> I would have to say that I agree with him about the vitriolic nature of many Calvinists, especially those who are 'new' to the theology. Debate doesn't change a heart, and anger doesn't help communication.



Nor does an overzealous Calvinist's bad behaviour change the orthodoxy of their interpretation of the gospel. (Am I fitting a stereotype here???)

So where do we draw the line? Is saying, "Dear brother, you are in error" with a smile enough of a warm fuzzy to get me off the 'evil Calvinist' hook?


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## Berean

> The difference is, Muslims know when to quit -



They do?


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## OPC'n

Joshua said:


> The answer is a Calvinist Jihad: Picturing The Absurd: "Worse Than Muslims"?



Hey, that's my friend's site! He always had a lot of good info!


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## DMcFadden

Joshua said:


> The answer is a Calvinist Jihad: Picturing The Absurd: "Worse Than Muslims"?



Liberty's prez, Ergun Caner, is what Josh is referencing:



> Q: DIDN'T YOU SAY THAT CALVINISTS ARE WORSE THAN MUSLIMS?
> 
> A: Yes, absolutely. For a small portion of these people, just daring to question the Bezian movement is heresy. They will blog and
> e-mail incessantly. I call it a "Calvinist Jihad", because just like Muslims, they believe they are defending the honor of their view.
> They can discuss nothing else. I have even had a few call for my head! Dr. Falwell and I have laughed about it, because they are so insistent, and they miss the point completely. There are plenty of schools to which the neo-Calvinists can go, but Liberty will be a lighthouse for missions and evangelism to the "whosoever wills". Period. The difference is, Muslims know when to quit - for these guys, it is the only topic about which they can talk.



OK, that ticks even me off!!! As much as I want to opine for tolerance and maturity, there is something about Ergun Caner that can reduce me to a snarling cage-stage Calvinist in about 3 seconds.


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## steven-nemes

Is there any way I can possibly put that "TULIP will dominate the world" picture in my signature?


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## Skyler

One of the things I promised myself when studying Calvinism(aside from not slipping into hyper-Calvinism, which I did anyway by accident) was that I would not engage anyone in debate or discussion on the topic until I could handle it with meekness and humility. The only person I have so engaged thus far is my dad, and that seemed to go over pretty well. But meekness and humility can be really hard when you know you're right.


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## Reformed Thomist

So wait... do you guys mean to say that Arminianism is something that you _can't_ beat out of people?

I have a couple in my basement that, I think, are starting to turn...


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## MrMerlin777

Berean said:


> The difference is, Muslims know when to quit -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They do?
Click to expand...



Of course they do. You remember, once they've sawed the head off of the infidel and taken his women and children.

(Did I say that out loud?)


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## gene_mingo

I will not calm down! urm, well maybe. Ok, fine.


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## Spinningplates2

I have heard for twenty five years that Calvinist are too proud and too loud. I have and will tell people that Calvinist knocking Calvinist is a full time job for some people. We are no more or less loud, stuck up and proud then any other group. I think that it is a self perpetuating myth like the other one that says, "Calvinist don't like to witness because of what they think about Election."


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## Skyler

Spinningplates2 said:


> I have heard for twenty five years that Calvinist are too proud and too loud. I have and will tell people that Calvinist knocking Calvinist is a full time job for some people. We are no more or less loud, stuck up and proud then any other group. I think that it is a self perpetuating myth like the other one that says, "Calvinist don't like to witness because of what they think about Election."



Well, I suppose you may be right. However, judging by our doctrines, we _should_ be. We should be the most [truly] humble, meek group of Christians on the face of the earth--if we are consistent with our doctrines.


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## Whitefield

1 Peter 3:14-16 ESV



> But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet *do it with gentleness and respect*, having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.


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## R Harris

DMcFadden said:


> Joshua said:
> 
> 
> 
> The answer is a Calvinist Jihad: Picturing The Absurd: "Worse Than Muslims"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Liberty's prez, Ergun Caner, is what Josh is referencing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Q: DIDN'T YOU SAY THAT CALVINISTS ARE WORSE THAN MUSLIMS?
> 
> A: Yes, absolutely. For a small portion of these people, just daring to question the Bezian movement is heresy. They will blog and
> e-mail incessantly. I call it a "Calvinist Jihad", because just like Muslims, they believe they are defending the honor of their view.
> They can discuss nothing else. I have even had a few call for my head! Dr. Falwell and I have laughed about it, because they are so insistent, and they miss the point completely. There are plenty of schools to which the neo-Calvinists can go, but Liberty will be a lighthouse for missions and evangelism to the "whosoever wills". Period. The difference is, Muslims know when to quit - for these guys, it is the only topic about which they can talk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> OK, that ticks even me off!!! As much as I want to opine for tolerance and maturity, there is something about Ergun Caner that can reduce me to a snarling cage-stage Calvinist in about 3 seconds.
Click to expand...


Well, given that Dr. Falwell addressed a group of potential new fall students at Liberty in April 2007 just two weeks before his death and pronounced Calvinism to be "heresy" (yes, I saw it on YouTube shortly thereafter), should Dr. Caner expect me to be happy and cheerful about that? Is it ok for him or Dr. Falwell to take cheap shots at Calvinists? I think there is a hypocritical double standard here . . . 

We all have different experiences. I have found mine to be one of progressive rejection.

First, a believer. Rejected by former "friends" who wanted nothing more to do with me.

Second, a five point calvinist. Rejected by fellow Campus Crusaders, who sometimes looked at me like I should be committed to the psych ward (no, I did not communicate my new knowledge with shrill anger.)

Third, covenant theology. Rejected by many who thought the paedobaptism thing to be strange and _really_ heretical - including the very person who spoke the Gospel to me. That one hurt pretty bad.

Fourth, amillenialist, then post-mil. Rejected by Dispensational pre-mils, who now thought I had joined a cult. Amillenialists upset that I had rocked their boat, thinking that amillenialism was the final frontier of eschatology.

Fifth, RPW. Rejected by fellow PCAers and OPCers who thought I had degenerated into "reformed legalism."

Sixth, national confessionalism/theoretical theonomist. Now rejected by just about everybody.

So, as I embarked on my journey of Scripture study, I progressively saw myself more and more lonely. It's kind of scary, actually. So, I go back and retrace my steps - have I missed something? Where have I gone wrong? And after the re-study, I am still here. This raises more questions for me for which I have no answers this side of the veil.

For me, I have not had so much of a problem of pride as I do puzzlement and frustration.


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## Poimen

R Harris said:


> Fourth, amillenialist, then post-mil. Amillenialists upset that I had rocked their boat, thinking that amillenialism was the final frontier of eschatology.



After reading this I have rejected you. Now you have hit rock bottom.

-----Added 5/18/2009 at 07:47:01 EST-----



Reformed Thomist said:


> So wait... do you guys mean to say that Arminianism is something that you _can't_ beat out of people?
> 
> I have a couple in my basement that, I think, are starting to turn...


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## Quickened

I am one of these people that have let my zeal get the best of me at times. I pray that it doesnt happen.

Its hard because when i saw the truth behind the doctrines of grace it seemed "plain as day" to me and I wanted to talk to those (that I discussed bibical things with) about what i had just came across.

Some people just dont see it and I can admit that at times it is frustrating. Especially on the internet. Alot of times folk dont go into these discussions to actually learn or openly discuss scripture. They approach topics as if they need to sift the heresy out of people who disagree with them.

The internet is tough because we have no emotions or body language to go by. Just cold text sometimes warmed by a smiley here and there.

The PB is one of the few places not like that. I am thankful for that


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## Berean

steven-nemes said:


> Is there any way I can possibly put that "TULIP will dominate the world" picture in my signature?









The board will automatically resize it for you.
http://i42.tinypic.com/ycr3n.jpg


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## Pergamum

Let's go on a LOVE OFFENSIVE!!!

I declare today to be "Hug an Arminian Day!"


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## awretchsavedbygrace

Anyone ever see Ergun Canor's sermon " why I was predestined never to be a hyper-calvinist". Horrible Sermon! He cant distingish the differences between hyper-calvinism and Calvinism.Dr. James White critiques the whole sermon on youtube.


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## Blue Tick

There’s some truth to the matter that newly reforming Calvinists can come across “arrogant”. However, let’s balance this with the fact that new Calvinists are coming into the true gospel and their being freed from works righteousness. Their experiencing what a lot of cultists feel and that’s deception. They feel they’ve been deceived and are angry at the leaders who have taught them poorly. We’ve all heard of the ON FIRE BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN so these new Calvinists in one sense are on fire for the Lord. This raw zeal needs to be nurtured with sound Christian piety and practice. 

I would counter that I’ve met plenty of “Evangellies” who are equally if not more arrogant in their works righteousness and super free-willism. Challenge them on Premillenianism, Pretribulationalism or the doctrine of free-will and you will most likely encounter the natural man displaying his hatred of God.


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## lshepler412

jandrusk said:


> I think it is important to note that just because someone claims to be a calvinist or an arminian for that matter, it does not mean that they are actually a christian. I'm currently reading a book by Jonathan Edwards amply called, "Religious Affections". One of the main tenets is that the devil can produce in those who are not saved, essentially an external replica that is found in devout saints. I became a calvinist about a year ago, but it was not until I was what I believe to be a fairly well grounded Christian.
> 
> Just remember Calvinist is not necessarily synonymous with a redeemed, elect, sanctified saint of Jesus Christ.



That is a very good point. It reminds me of something I was reading by John Owen about those who are imposters in the faith..."they went out from us because they were not of us". Sorry I can't quite remember where the Scripture is but maybe I John. Anyway, the book by Owen is entitled Apostacy from the Gospel.


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## kvanlaan

Pergamum said:


> Let's go on a LOVE OFFENSIVE!!!
> 
> I declare today to be "Slug an Arminian Day!"



Tut, tut, brother. A few days in the US, and you go postal...


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## Pergamum

Yikes.....

How about _drug an arminian day _then? Drugs often work in"re-education programs"


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## charliejunfan

New Calvinists go through the angry period because they are bitter against the teaching they were fed and told to believe. This is why I am/was angry...


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## ReformedChapin

Wisdom in Arminian Advice


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## reformedminister

I have found arrogance in about every group I have encountered. Baptists are proud to be Baptists, and the Pentecostals think they have one up on everyone. However, the most overwhelming stench I have ever come across came from the first Reformed Church I attended. Why? I just can't figure it out. TULIPs usually have a pleasant aroma.


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## TheFleshProfitethNothing

Soooo! What's wrong with "Be angry and sin not..."?


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## apaleífo̱

Ah, I miss the old days when we were all in our ships travelling to the New World and trying to make of ourselves an example to other Christians, rather than just grousing at them all the time. There is much to be said for the differences between hurtful fanaticism and constructive zeal. Perhaps much of the difference between modern Reformed Protestants and the old 16th and 17th-century Reformers has to do with the fact that many of us in America (with the unfortunate exceptions, of course) haven't suffered persecution to the extent that they did; also, the Faith was new, raw, and ground-breaking -- now man has had a chance to make it seem stale and pedantic. Also, in the good old days, _everyone_ who was interested in theology was fiery and, often enough, rather rude. They would have been quite flabbergasted at the delicate sensibilities of our age.

Of course, arrogance is another thing entirely and should be cut down at all times as a thing hateful to the Lord.


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## Pergamum

christabella_warren said:


> Ah, I miss the old days when we were all in our ships travelling to the New World and trying to make of ourselves an example to other Christians, rather than just grousing at them all the time. There is much to be said for the differences between hurtful fanaticism and constructive zeal. Perhaps much of the difference between modern Reformed Protestants and the old 16th and 17th-century Reformers has to do with the fact that many of us in America (with the unfortunate exceptions, of course) haven't suffered persecution to the extent that they did; also, the Faith was new, raw, and ground-breaking -- now man has had a chance to make it seem stale and pedantic. Also, in the good old days, _everyone_ who was interested in theology was fiery and, often enough, rather rude. They would have been quite flabbergasted at the delicate sensibilities of our age.
> 
> Of course, arrogance is another thing entirely and should be cut down at all times as a thing hateful to the Lord.



Sorry, those "good ol' days' didn't exist. 

The Quakers were persecuted and Roger Williams was driven out of his area by calvinists. "Christianity" overall is getting more and more tolerant these days as opposed to "the good ol' days"


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## R Harris

Pergamum said:


> " . . . and Roger Williams was driven out of his area by calvinists . . ."



Do you mean Massachusetts or Rhode Island?

The story of Williams being "driven" out of the Massachusetts Bay Colony by those harsh, mean Puritans has been one of the biggest myths perpetrated in American history.

In the _Christianity and Civilization Symposium, Volume II, The Failure of the American Baptist Culture_, there is an article in the book written by a Harry Dexter White back in 1876, all based on the actual source documentation of what happened back in 1634 - 1638. It portrays a FAR different picture than what the history books of the last 50 years have presented about Williams, Massachusetts, and Rhode Island.

In the same manner, Calvinists often get caricatured by Dispensationalists/arminians in that they claim Calvinists are teaching that Calvin said far more than he actually did regarding TULIP (especially the L), but Paul Helm in _Calvin and the Calvinists_ also dispelled those myths.

Sometimes the amount of ignorance and willful blindness that exists can be astounding.


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## Peairtach

Calvinists need to remember that it is _by grace_ that they have been enabled to receive these doctrines, and if it wasn't for the grace of God they would be Arminians because Arminianism is intellectual sin on the part of often true believers.


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## Rich Koster

What do you call 10,000 Arminians enrolled in Westminster?

a) a good start
b) answered prayer


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## Whitefield

Rich Koster said:


> What do you call 10,000 Arminians enrolled in Westminster?



ummm, would it be known as Princeton?


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## Rich Koster

Whitefield said:


> Rich Koster said:
> 
> 
> 
> What do you call 10,000 Arminians enrolled in Westminster?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ummm, would it be known as Princeton?
Click to expand...


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## Pergamum

R Harris said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> " . . . and Roger Williams was driven out of his area by calvinists . . ."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you mean Massachusetts or Rhode Island?
> 
> The story of Williams being "driven" out of the Massachusetts Bay Colony by those harsh, mean Puritans has been one of the biggest myths perpetrated in American history.
> 
> In the _Christianity and Civilization Symposium, Volume II, The Failure of the American Baptist Culture_, there is an article in the book written by a Harry Dexter White back in 1876, all based on the actual source documentation of what happened back in 1634 - 1638. It portrays a FAR different picture than what the history books of the last 50 years have presented about Williams, Massachusetts, and Rhode Island.
> 
> In the same manner, Calvinists often get caricatured by Dispensationalists/arminians in that they claim Calvinists are teaching that Calvin said far more than he actually did regarding TULIP (especially the L), but Paul Helm in _Calvin and the Calvinists_ also dispelled those myths.
> 
> Sometimes the amount of ignorance and willful blindness that exists can be astounding.
Click to expand...



All the history books Ihave read that Roger Williams was expelled from the Mass. bay Colony in 1635.

What's your evidence to the contrary?

-----Added 5/19/2009 at 10:36:24 EST-----

Burrage, Why Was Roger Williams Banished?


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## Pergamum

Getting kicked out of hearth and home isn't a picnic.


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## Spinningplates2

The Lord warned not to lose our first love. I think many are "talked out" of expressing there full love and witness for Christ because the do not do "witnessing" perfectly. For example, I know that I have been told that I an too confrontational when I feel I am simply explaining the truth about Rome or Election or why I feel Clark Pennock is a wolf..


----------



## Damon Rambo

Calvinists do not have a monopoly on vitriol. All one needs do is to listen to people such as Ergun Caner rant...

Yes, I think we can get too "passionate" about such things. However, if you can discuss subjects like the sovereignty of God, with complete emotional detachment, I believe there is something wrong with you. Paul never minced words with those who were teaching error: neither did Jesus say "Yea, sir, you have a right to your opinion..."

The fact is, when people hold certain beliefs, they are impugning God's character. We SHOULD get upset about this, and defend truth. This does not mean we call people names, but neither do we softball truth.


----------



## R Harris

christabella_warren said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Getting kicked out of hearth and home isn't a picnic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, point taken. But it isn't as though Williams was a hapless dissenter -- he was just as fanatical about his beliefs as the elders of Massachusetts Bay and, had he left of his own accord (with better grace, I might add), the situation that he found himself in would never have occurred.
Click to expand...


Again, this is way off topic, but in the White article, he states that the Williams departure was mutual - in fact, the Puritans were willing to give him a good sum of money (i.e. "severance package" from a corporate perspective) to get a ship back to England. Instead, Williams opted for Rhode Island. He states that even after Williams' departure, John Winthrop still continued to write him, seeking reconciliation, but Williams would have none of it.

Try to get the entire article and read it. Go to the Massachusetts historical archives, where he got his source documentation, and try to prove him wrong.


----------



## TheFleshProfitethNothing

WE are to "contend for the FAITH"...and at times that means getting angry...but "sin (ing) not"...I can AND do "go-off" on so-called "christians", and will continue to be ....ME...and if people don't like it, then maybe they should explain what "be angry and sin not" means in there particular "world".

I have and do converse with MANY unbelievers; both "professing (a) Christ, and others TOTALLY denying the existence of ANY God what-so-ever...and I have dealt emotionally with BOTH...some need a "tongue lashing", most need compassion...

Ecclesiasties states that there is a time and a place for everything, EVEN killing...not that I aim to physically kill anyone. God will deal with that! "My word is as a burning fire; and a hammer that breaketh the rock to pieces". (not a perfect quote?)

It is a shame that many get STUPID with there Intelligence...(which is not their own), but to say it isn't appropriate, AT TIMES, to get angry against THE LIE, is to be ignorant of the Scriptures...

What of "contend for the faith..."??? and other such Words in the Holy Writ against those that would tear apart the Lord's church if they were allowed???

Does that mean INSTANTLY...BLAST...someone? NO! of course not...but as I stated previously, there IS a time and a place for being angry. I don't believe that anyone posting here would just "go-off" on someone straight-away...yet I don't believe anyone with a responsiblity over a congregation would do EVERYTHING they possibley could, including getting angry, to run off THE LIE...and I do hope that "you" would...otherwise, I have some anger to spout towards "you" right now.

Be real!!! Contend for the faith, firstly and in ernest, with all compassion and loving kindness toward the person in discussion with you, but NOT at the expense of those who are "weaker in the faith".

I appreciate this thread, because it reminds me, to keep all things in subjection to the Spirit of God, and to realize, that not ALL have faith...

But, there is a difference between those who know NOTHING of Christ, and those who PROFFER a FALSE Christ...

It CAN be frustrating, and that can lead to HARSH debate! But simpley remember, BE ANGRY and sin NOT!


----------



## A.Hudson

ColdSilverMoon said:


> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can identify with what he writes about "internet Calvinists." Some of the most vitriolic and ugly fights on the net take place _with_, _between_, or _at the hands of_ Calvinists. This is to our shame. Some of the most "Christian" men of God I know are either Arminian or Pentecostal. Do I believe that they are wrong? Duh! But, it embarrasses me when they evidence the fruit of the Spirit so much more evidently than some of us more theologically correct types. And, no, I'm not talking about the "nice" Mormon, Buddhist, Muslim, or Jew. *I'm speaking of people in Christian churches who read the same book, pray to the same God, depend upon the same Jesus for their standing with God, and look forward to his return. It shames us that our more correct theology is not matched at times by verbal maturity in what we say to other folks (and to each other!) on the internet. * I wouldn't phrase it exactly like Patton does, but find much to nod my head to in his description . . . sadly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think Calvinists often forget we're ultimately on the same team with Arminians, Pentecostals, etc. They may be wrong in their theology on some points and this leads to broader problems that should be addressed, but in the final analysis they are indeed brothers and sisters. I would never speak to my familial brother in the vitriolic way some Calvinists speak to non-Calvinists...
Click to expand...


Both Quotes very very true. And this is from someone coming from the background of someone who used to fight all day, tooth and nail against the DOG, even though all my boys that I fellowship with except for a few were reformed. But now by God's Grace and Him allowing me to pray and study the matter I def lean wayyyyyyy more towards the DOG, even though I'm not fully there yet, there's still some hard pills for me to swallow. 

But some things that I have noticed is not all, but some Calvinist, would view those who aren't reformed, as people who have no idea what there talking about, and can't be right about possibly anything they say, and it seemed like the Calvinist thought intellectually he was on a much higher ladder then the Armeniest. Even now that I'm basically reformed, I still see Calvinist mock Armeniest, mock the way an Armeniest must pray and present The Gospel. Which I disagree with, because even when I was an Armeniest I didn't pray nor present The Gospel the way Calvinist depicted, so it came off as prideful, and kind of poking fun to me, kind of a way to make the Armeniest look dumb and stupid to the Calvinist community. That's why I think alot of Calvinist can think that way of the Armeniest. So if an Armeniest ran into a Calvinist that thought like that, because of what they've heard someone teach about and Armeniest, or watched in a video, then he would automatically place that depiction on him, which if an Armeniest doesn't hold to that, (Like I didn't) it can cause him to feel very disrespected, because the reformed can have a pre-conceived notion of him that's completely false, and mis-understood. 

But I don't rule out the fact that bad theology has to be corrected, that is a *MUST*, but the way you do it, is also a BIG deal, it has to be done in *Love*. I've had alot of friends that were Calvinist, and when I didn't hold to the DOG, it was like I and a few of my other brothers who didn't hold to that were ex-communicated from them, and it hurt us so bad, even to the point where some cried, because these were brothers we've known and were in ministry with for years. But by the Grace of GOD, he used a brother I know named Rashad, who is very sound in his theology and doctrine, to answer all my questions and challenges to the DOG. He never forced it on me, he would ask me questions from time to time, and when I started really searching it out, praying and studying it myself, he was (And still is) Very patient with me to answer any and all my questions, in love and sincerity, and that was BIG help. Some other people I knew who were reformed (Exception for some) it seemed like they wanted nothing to do with me at all...like I was a castaway or something, and I see others who come at Armeniest, like there just completely stupid..and don't know anything about the bible at all. Trust me they can sense that, and it can actually turn them away from adhearing to the DOG, then turn them towards it, that's why alot of Arminiest label some who are reformed as prideful. Armeniest aren't off the hook though, I recently ran into one, and they seemed to be so prideful, and absolutely hated all Calvinist, which I thought was horrible, the response that they gave to the reformed dripped with pride..so the newely reformed arent the only ones, it's some Armeniest out there, that just view Calvinist as legalistic jerks who have a John Calvin and C.H Spurgeon shrine in the Corner of there room, which my friend is absolutely not true. It was the genuine Love and patience, of a brother of mine that GOD used as just one of many means, to actually open me up more to the DOG.


----------



## Curt

1. I hold that it cannot be a punishment to be banished from Massachusetts.
2. We who have been around Reformed circles for a while know that it is neither vitriol nor anger. We call it POLEMICS.


----------



## The Author of my Faith

Well I changed my Picture because I realize that I have a lot in common with Ralph Cramden. "I GOTTA BIG MOUTH" The Author of My Faith

But God is working on that 

I would agree that from my limited experience Many Calvinists seem to be meaner then a billy goat. Being new to reformed theology I have made my fair share of mistakes in saying terminologies that might sound "PENTECOSTAL" and have had some rebuke me severely and correct me without the least bit of tenderness and compassion. But then I also know some arminian brothers who are as sweet as honey until you cross the line and they will turn on you in a heartbeat. People are people no matter what doctrinal stance you hold. The Flesh of a Calvinist is just as evil as the Flesh of an Arminian.

I watched a video on a debate between calvinists and arminians. Two professors were from the Baptist Seminary in Louisville, KY and the two arminian's were from Asbury Theological Seminary. The men from Louisville were full of Grace and spoke lovingly to the Arminian brothers. One of the men from Asbury was very sarcastic and condesending. 

I dropped out of a seminary this year because I could not take the doctrine any longer. Very liberal and unbiblical. I pissed a few people off because I spoke out in light of my new found stance on Calvinism. I kind of gave them both barrels and now I see I need to be more loving and tenderhearted. God is working.

I GOT A BIG MOUTH! 

-----Added 5/23/2009 at 10:16:07 EST-----

OPPS my picture did not change


----------



## Houston E.

Pergamum said:


> How about _drug an arminian day _then? Drugs often work in"re-education programs"


----------



## The Author of my Faith

*Void of the Spirit*



A.Hudson said:


> ColdSilverMoon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can identify with what he writes about "internet Calvinists." Some of the most vitriolic and ugly fights on the net take place _with_, _between_, or _at the hands of_ Calvinists. This is to our shame. Some of the most "Christian" men of God I know are either Arminian or Pentecostal. Do I believe that they are wrong? Duh! But, it embarrasses me when they evidence the fruit of the Spirit so much more evidently than some of us more theologically correct types. And, no, I'm not talking about the "nice" Mormon, Buddhist, Muslim, or Jew. *I'm speaking of people in Christian churches who read the same book, pray to the same God, depend upon the same Jesus for their standing with God, and look forward to his return. It shames us that our more correct theology is not matched at times by verbal maturity in what we say to other folks (and to each other!) on the internet. * I wouldn't phrase it exactly like Patton does, but find much to nod my head to in his description . . . sadly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think Calvinists often forget we're ultimately on the same team with Arminians, Pentecostals, etc. They may be wrong in their theology on some points and this leads to broader problems that should be addressed, but in the final analysis they are indeed brothers and sisters. I would never speak to my familial brother in the vitriolic way some Calvinists speak to non-Calvinists...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Both Quotes very very true. And this is from someone coming from the background of someone who used to fight all day, tooth and nail against the DOG, even though all my boys that I fellowship with except for a few were reformed. But now by God's Grace and Him allowing me to pray and study the matter I def lean wayyyyyyy more towards the DOG, even though I'm not fully there yet, there's still some hard pills for me to swallow.
> 
> But some things that I have noticed is not all, but some Calvinist, would view those who aren't reformed, as people who have no idea what there talking about, and can't be right about possibly anything they say, and it seemed like the Calvinist thought intellectually he was on a much higher ladder then the Armeniest. Even now that I'm basically reformed, I still see Calvinist mock Armeniest, mock the way an Armeniest must pray and present The Gospel. Which I disagree with, because even when I was an Armeniest I didn't pray nor present The Gospel the way Calvinist depicted, so it came off as prideful, and kind of poking fun to me, kind of a way to make the Armeniest look dumb and stupid to the Calvinist community. That's why I think alot of Calvinist can think that way of the Armeniest. So if an Armeniest ran into a Calvinist that thought like that, because of what they've heard someone teach about and Armeniest, or watched in a video, then he would automatically place that depiction on him, which if an Armeniest doesn't hold to that, (Like I didn't) it can cause him to feel very disrespected, because the reformed can have a pre-conceived notion of him that's completely false, and mis-understood.
> 
> But I don't rule out the fact that bad theology has to be corrected, that is a *MUST*, but the way you do it, is also a BIG deal, it has to be done in *Love*. I've had alot of friends that were Calvinist, and when I didn't hold to the DOG, it was like I and a few of my other brothers who didn't hold to that were ex-communicated from them, and it hurt us so bad, even to the point where some cried, because these were brothers we've known and were in ministry with for years. But by the Grace of GOD, he used a brother I know named Rashad, who is very sound in his theology and doctrine, to answer all my questions and challenges to the DOG. He never forced it on me, he would ask me questions from time to time, and when I started really searching it out, praying and studying it myself, he was (And still is) Very patient with me to answer any and all my questions, in love and sincerity, and that was BIG help. Some other people I knew who were reformed (Exception for some) it seemed like they wanted nothing to do with me at all...like I was a castaway or something, and I see others who come at Armeniest, like there just completely stupid..and don't know anything about the bible at all. Trust me they can sense that, and it can actually turn them away from adhearing to the DOG, then turn them towards it, that's why alot of Arminiest label some who are reformed as prideful. Armeniest aren't off the hook though, I recently ran into one, and they seemed to be so prideful, and absolutely hated all Calvinist, which I thought was horrible, the response that they gave to the reformed dripped with pride..so the newely reformed arent the only ones, it's some Armeniest out there, that just view Calvinist as legalistic jerks who have a John Calvin and C.H Spurgeon shrine in the Corner of there room, which my friend is absolutely not true. It was the genuine Love and patience, of a brother of mine that GOD used as just one of many means, to actually open me up more to the DOG.
Click to expand...


Again, I was taught that Calvinists were those people who rejected the Holy Spirit and Worshiped the Bible instead of worshipping Jesus. They had a Christianity that fell short by Twelve inches, the distance between the heart and the head. My Pastor was ANTI-Calvinist and had not problem stating it from the pulpit. Though he never said the name we all knew who he was talking about when he preached against those who are into dead doctrine and who are void of the Spirit. He would say they are mean spirited, carnal, cold, callous, full of head knowledge. He would use the scripture "you search the scriptures to find life, and the speak of me but you will not come to me that you may have life" (paraphrased), you know the verse. 

But my pastor had no problem accepting the "Pastor of the Year Award" from one of the Christian Education Institutions that mostly (and I say mostly not all the way) held to a calvinistic position. 

BUT, In spite of the downfalls and Theological Train Wrecks that are so prominent within the Arminian Circles, there still are many Arminian Preachers who have preached with power the Cross of Christ. We have some Great Men of God in that Camp so I am not ready to cast them all aside as not knowing anything.


----------



## Rich Koster

Reformed Thomist said:


> So wait... do you guys mean to say that Arminianism is something that you _can't_ beat out of people?
> 
> I have a couple in my basement that, I think, are starting to turn...



Let the TULIP Inquisition begin........


----------



## A.Hudson

The Author of my Faith said:


> A.Hudson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ColdSilverMoon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think Calvinists often forget we're ultimately on the same team with Arminians, Pentecostals, etc. They may be wrong in their theology on some points and this leads to broader problems that should be addressed, but in the final analysis they are indeed brothers and sisters. I would never speak to my familial brother in the vitriolic way some Calvinists speak to non-Calvinists...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Both Quotes very very true. And this is from someone coming from the background of someone who used to fight all day, tooth and nail against the DOG, even though all my boys that I fellowship with except for a few were reformed. But now by God's Grace and Him allowing me to pray and study the matter I def lean wayyyyyyy more towards the DOG, even though I'm not fully there yet, there's still some hard pills for me to swallow.
> 
> But some things that I have noticed is not all, but some Calvinist, would view those who aren't reformed, as people who have no idea what there talking about, and can't be right about possibly anything they say, and it seemed like the Calvinist thought intellectually he was on a much higher ladder then the Armeniest. Even now that I'm basically reformed, I still see Calvinist mock Armeniest, mock the way an Armeniest must pray and present The Gospel. Which I disagree with, because even when I was an Armeniest I didn't pray nor present The Gospel the way Calvinist depicted, so it came off as prideful, and kind of poking fun to me, kind of a way to make the Armeniest look dumb and stupid to the Calvinist community. That's why I think alot of Calvinist can think that way of the Armeniest. So if an Armeniest ran into a Calvinist that thought like that, because of what they've heard someone teach about and Armeniest, or watched in a video, then he would automatically place that depiction on him, which if an Armeniest doesn't hold to that, (Like I didn't) it can cause him to feel very disrespected, because the reformed can have a pre-conceived notion of him that's completely false, and mis-understood.
> 
> But I don't rule out the fact that bad theology has to be corrected, that is a *MUST*, but the way you do it, is also a BIG deal, it has to be done in *Love*. I've had alot of friends that were Calvinist, and when I didn't hold to the DOG, it was like I and a few of my other brothers who didn't hold to that were ex-communicated from them, and it hurt us so bad, even to the point where some cried, because these were brothers we've known and were in ministry with for years. But by the Grace of GOD, he used a brother I know named Rashad, who is very sound in his theology and doctrine, to answer all my questions and challenges to the DOG. He never forced it on me, he would ask me questions from time to time, and when I started really searching it out, praying and studying it myself, he was (And still is) Very patient with me to answer any and all my questions, in love and sincerity, and that was BIG help. Some other people I knew who were reformed (Exception for some) it seemed like they wanted nothing to do with me at all...like I was a castaway or something, and I see others who come at Armeniest, like there just completely stupid..and don't know anything about the bible at all. Trust me they can sense that, and it can actually turn them away from adhearing to the DOG, then turn them towards it, that's why alot of Arminiest label some who are reformed as prideful. Armeniest aren't off the hook though, I recently ran into one, and they seemed to be so prideful, and absolutely hated all Calvinist, which I thought was horrible, the response that they gave to the reformed dripped with pride..so the newely reformed arent the only ones, it's some Armeniest out there, that just view Calvinist as legalistic jerks who have a John Calvin and C.H Spurgeon shrine in the Corner of there room, which my friend is absolutely not true. It was the genuine Love and patience, of a brother of mine that GOD used as just one of many means, to actually open me up more to the DOG.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again, I was taught that Calvinists were those people who rejected the Holy Spirit and Worshiped the Bible instead of worshipping Jesus. They had a Christianity that fell short by Twelve inches, the distance between the heart and the head. My Pastor was ANTI-Calvinist and had not problem stating it from the pulpit. Though he never said the name we all knew who he was talking about when he preached against those who are into dead doctrine and who are void of the Spirit. He would say they are mean spirited, carnal, cold, callous, full of head knowledge. He would use the scripture "you search the scriptures to find life, and the speak of me but you will not come to me that you may have life" (paraphrased), you know the verse.
> 
> But my pastor had no problem accepting the "Pastor of the Year Award" from one of the Christian Education Institutions that mostly (and I say mostly not all the way) held to a calvinistic position.
> 
> BUT, In spite of the downfalls and Theological Train Wrecks that are so prominent within the Arminian Circles, there still are many Arminian Preachers who have preached with power the Cross of Christ. We have some Great Men of God in that Camp so I am not ready to cast them all aside as not knowing anything.
Click to expand...


Last part of the quote is so true.. I just still know, and see alot of Calvinist who push them all off like they don't know absolutely anything, and like there dumb biblically, which causes alot I see to look down at them, like there inferior...which I don't think that's Chrislike at all, it's pride. There are some that still preach with power of the Cross of Christ, we act like we forgot..like if there not reformed they don't and can't...not true..

**Note, not talking about Calvanist in General, just talking about some I've seen.***

And I think that's what makes people who run into or see calvanist have a pre-conceived notion that there prideful and arrogent...which I would say is absolutely not true. But we can't blame them for seeing some that way, cause even we know some who can be like that, and there's no excuse for it at all. I've seen ppl say it's because of this or because of that, but there really is no justifying it; if it's wrong it's wrong, and even I have fallen short in that area, and been guilty of it. So I pray GOD Truly humbles me.. Seriously.


----------



## TheFleshProfitethNothing

Arminians and Pentecostals??? They are the same...just as they are Pelagian...S-I-N-N-E-R-S...lost in their UNBELIEF...

What is it that they BELIEVE that saves them? What makes them SAVED?

If you accept them as "bretheren", then you are in thought process that "they are believers going to heaven"...ARE YOU SURE about that???

Is it better to accept a false Christ as your cousin in faith, or is it better that your "BROTHER" know the REAL Christ?

The heart is deceitful above all things...who can KNOW it? Stop whimping out because you need some one on this planet to love you...and appreciate you, as if you were worth it...

Proclaim the True Christ...'for many will come in MY Name saying..." and they will say it well. Where do you draw the line???

What's next? Islam is Christianity, just under a different name?? We all worship the same Christ but just in different ways and understandings??? Sure there will be some MINOR variations...BUT what is MINOR???

I'm getting extremely worried about what is construde as Christianity and what IS Christianity...

Unbelievers ARE NOT our BROTHERS!!! 

Figure out what a believer is, then you can embrace them as your KINDRED...


----------



## rbcbob

TheFleshProfitethNothing; said "Arminians and Pentecostals??? *They are the same...just as they are Pelagian...S-I-N-N-E-R-S...lost in their UNBELIEF..."
*


I would fear to pronounce all Arminians who live on the earth as *categorically* lost. Many who now love the doctrines and frequent PB knew and loved Jesus before they knew and loved Reformed teaching.

*What* is it that they BELIEVE that saves them? *What* makes them SAVED?

I prefer *Who is it that they believe* and *Who makes them saved*


----------



## caddy

Calming down....wait!

Boxing Match of the Millennium


----------



## galactic reformer

-----Added 6/1/2009 at 07:33:13 EST-----



Pergamum said:


> christabella_warren said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, I miss the old days when we were all in our ships travelling to the New World and trying to make of ourselves an example to other Christians, rather than just grousing at them all the time. There is much to be said for the differences between hurtful fanaticism and constructive zeal. Perhaps much of the difference between modern Reformed Protestants and the old 16th and 17th-century Reformers has to do with the fact that many of us in America (with the unfortunate exceptions, of course) haven't suffered persecution to the extent that they did; also, the Faith was new, raw, and ground-breaking -- now man has had a chance to make it seem stale and pedantic. Also, in the good old days, _everyone_ who was interested in theology was fiery and, often enough, rather rude. They would have been quite flabbergasted at the delicate sensibilities of our age.
> 
> Of course, arrogance is another thing entirely and should be cut down at all times as a thing hateful to the Lord.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, those "good ol' days' didn't exist.
> 
> The Quakers were persecuted and Roger Williams was driven out of his area by calvinists. "Christianity" overall is getting more and more tolerant these days as opposed to "the good ol' days"
Click to expand...


The reformational doctrines weren't NEW...nor was the FAITH. Another myth taught by man is that the reformers were revisionaries...but they weren't.


----------



## Jesus is my friend

ReformedChapin said:


> Wisdom in Arminian Advice



That was Really funny!,Thanks so much for posting it!!


----------



## Pergamum

TheFleshProfitethNothing said:


> Arminians and Pentecostals??? They are the same...just as they are Pelagian...S-I-N-N-E-R-S...lost in their UNBELIEF...
> 
> What is it that they BELIEVE that saves them? What makes them SAVED?
> 
> If you accept them as "bretheren", then you are in thought process that "they are believers going to heaven"...ARE YOU SURE about that???
> 
> Is it better to accept a false Christ as your cousin in faith, or is it better that your "BROTHER" know the REAL Christ?
> 
> The heart is deceitful above all things...who can KNOW it? Stop whimping out because you need some one on this planet to love you...and appreciate you, as if you were worth it...
> 
> Proclaim the True Christ...'for many will come in MY Name saying..." and they will say it well. Where do you draw the line???
> 
> What's next? Islam is Christianity, just under a different name?? We all worship the same Christ but just in different ways and understandings??? Sure there will be some MINOR variations...BUT what is MINOR???
> 
> I'm getting extremely worried about what is construde as Christianity and what IS Christianity...
> 
> Unbelievers ARE NOT our BROTHERS!!!
> 
> Figure out what a believer is, then you can embrace them as your KINDRED...




This post by you proves the title of the whole thread.


----------



## reformedminister

TheFleshProfitethNothing said:


> Arminians and Pentecostals??? They are the same...just as they are Pelagian...S-I-N-N-E-R-S...lost in their UNBELIEF...
> 
> What is it that they BELIEVE that saves them? What makes them SAVED?
> 
> If you accept them as "bretheren", then you are in thought process that "they are believers going to heaven"...ARE YOU SURE about that???
> 
> Is it better to accept a false Christ as your cousin in faith, or is it better that your "BROTHER" know the REAL Christ?
> 
> The heart is deceitful above all things...who can KNOW it? Stop whimping out because you need some one on this planet to love you...and appreciate you, as if you were worth it...
> 
> Proclaim the True Christ...'for many will come in MY Name saying..." and they will say it well. Where do you draw the line???
> 
> What's next? Islam is Christianity, just under a different name?? We all worship the same Christ but just in different ways and understandings??? Sure there will be some MINOR variations...BUT what is MINOR???
> 
> I'm getting extremely worried about what is construde as Christianity and what IS Christianity...
> 
> Unbelievers ARE NOT our BROTHERS!!!
> 
> Figure out what a believer is, then you can embrace them as your KINDRED...



You are on a dangerous road if you believe all Arminians are going to hell. The Gospel is much simpler than that. Although I believe Calvinism is the purest form of the Christian Faith, I do not believe Arminians are going to hell. I believe Catholicism is mixed up too. However, I expect to see som Catholics in heaven!


----------



## kalawine

Jesus is my friend said:


> ReformedChapin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wisdom in Arminian Advice
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That was Really funny!,Thanks so much for posting it!!
Click to expand...


That's great right there! Funny!


----------



## AThornquist

TheFleshProfitethNothing said:


> Arminians and Pentecostals??? They are the same...just as they are Pelagian...S-I-N-N-E-R-S...lost in their UNBELIEF...
> 
> What is it that they BELIEVE that saves them? What makes them SAVED?
> 
> If you accept them as "bretheren", then you are in thought process that "they are believers going to heaven"...ARE YOU SURE about that???
> 
> Is it better to accept a false Christ as your cousin in faith, or is it better that your "BROTHER" know the REAL Christ?
> 
> The heart is deceitful above all things...who can KNOW it? Stop whimping out because you need some one on this planet to love you...and appreciate you, as if you were worth it...
> 
> Proclaim the True Christ...'for many will come in MY Name saying..." and they will say it well. Where do you draw the line???
> 
> What's next? Islam is Christianity, just under a different name?? We all worship the same Christ but just in different ways and understandings??? Sure there will be some MINOR variations...BUT what is MINOR???
> 
> I'm getting extremely worried about what is construde as Christianity and what IS Christianity...
> 
> Unbelievers ARE NOT our BROTHERS!!!
> 
> Figure out what a believer is, then you can embrace them as your KINDRED...



This kind of thinking is something that makes Calvinism so ugly to those who don't believe it. Wait, actually, you're making Calvinism look ugly even to _other Calvinists_. I am 100%, without a doubt, to the bone Calvinist, yet your attitude towards our brothers (albeit who hold to poor doctrine) is appalling. Do you not realize that there are Calvinists who are going to hell? There are many Arminians, Pentecostals, etc. who are our brothers and who will be in glory and many Calvinists who never knew Christ. If perfect doctrine were our standard and not the blood of Christ we would be in serious trouble considering the _vast_ majority of *Calvinists* disagree on doctrinal matters!


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## Semper Fidelis

I find it interesting that immature behavior is associated with being a "Calvinist". People are sinners. If the kind of behavior described is endemic to being Reformed and the author believes that, in the main, Arminianism breeds loving people then doesn't that indicate that Calvinism itself must do something to these people to make them act this way?

I guess I just don't understand the propensity for our own to ascribe our theology itself as breeding this kind of immaturity and hatred of neighbor. I've even heard Atheists argue that Christianity itself breeds this kind of behavior. 

What is being described are not men who consistently believe they are no better than their neighbor and are commanded by a Sovereign God to love that neighbor. What is being described is the Flesh.


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## Pilgrim72

This is so true. And quite sad. Calvinism should produce humility.
Of all people, the Calvinist is truely able to say "There but for the grace of God, go I".
How is it that any Christian, especially the Calvinist, can utter anything like the above post by Duane?


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