# R.C. Sproul on the Knox Seminary controversy...



## Semper Fidelis

I was reading the January 2009 Tabletalk this AM and found this veiled reference very interesting:


> In stark contrast to that, in this past year I have witnessed the worst type of corruption within the church that I have seen in my lifetime. I was chairing the board of a Christian institution of learning as we dealt with a question of the propriety of the teaching of one of the professors. The task of the board was to guard the purity of the doctrine of the institution. The motion was made to suspend the professor for a brief period of time in order to give him an opportunity to amend his views. As chairman, I did not vote, but the motion carried by a vote of eight to two.
> 
> During the discussion, one of the men who voted against the resolution asked this question: “Can’t we deal with this question in a more pragmatic way?” Another board member responded by saying, “No, it is our responsibility to act not according to pragmatism but according to principle.” The motion to suspend was passed by a margin of eight-to-two. The pragmatist who was outvoted, instead of submitting to the vote or bringing in a minority report, went around the board and did everything in his power to have the board’s decision overthrown. Accomplishing this, his next move was to see to it that board members with whom he disagreed were ousted from the board. Through Machiavellian machinations of corruption, this pragmatist was able to succeed. In his wake, he left the demolition of a strategically important institution of Christian learning.



You can read the whole article here: Ligonier Ministries | Tabletalk Magazine


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Wow.

Thanks for this Semper...


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## Marrow Man

How sad. I just finished reading an account of this, _Imagining a Vain Thing_, published by the Trinity Foundation.


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## Ivan

So what is the status of Knox? Would it be off the list of possible seminaries to attend?


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## greenbaggins

I wouldn't touch that seminary now with a ten-foot pole.

-----Added 12/31/2008 at 04:40:12 EST-----



Semper Fidelis said:


> I was reading the January 2009 Tabletalk this AM and found this veiled reference very interesting:
> 
> 
> 
> In stark contrast to that, in this past year I have witnessed the worst type of corruption within the church that I have seen in my lifetime. I was chairing the board of a Christian institution of learning as we dealt with a question of the propriety of the teaching of one of the professors. The task of the board was to guard the purity of the doctrine of the institution. The motion was made to suspend the professor for a brief period of time in order to give him an opportunity to amend his views. As chairman, I did not vote, but the motion carried by a vote of eight to two.
> 
> During the discussion, one of the men who voted against the resolution asked this question: “Can’t we deal with this question in a more pragmatic way?” Another board member responded by saying, “No, it is our responsibility to act not according to pragmatism but according to principle.” The motion to suspend was passed by a margin of eight-to-two. The pragmatist who was outvoted, instead of submitting to the vote or bringing in a minority report, went around the board and did everything in his power to have the board’s decision overthrown. Accomplishing this, his next move was to see to it that board members with whom he disagreed were ousted from the board. Through Machiavellian machinations of corruption, this pragmatist was able to succeed. In his wake, he left the demolition of a strategically important institution of Christian learning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can read the whole article here: Ligonier Ministries | Tabletalk Magazine
Click to expand...


Veiled? 

I know a lot more of the background to this than I really even wanted to know. To me, this isn't even remotely veiled.


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## matthew11v25

greenbaggins said:


> I wouldn't touch that seminary now with a ten-foot pole.
> 
> -----Added 12/31/2008 at 04:40:12 EST-----
> 
> 
> 
> Semper Fidelis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was reading the January 2009 Tabletalk this AM and found this veiled reference very interesting:
> 
> 
> 
> In stark contrast to that, in this past year I have witnessed the worst type of corruption within the church that I have seen in my lifetime. I was chairing the board of a Christian institution of learning as we dealt with a question of the propriety of the teaching of one of the professors. The task of the board was to guard the purity of the doctrine of the institution. The motion was made to suspend the professor for a brief period of time in order to give him an opportunity to amend his views. As chairman, I did not vote, but the motion carried by a vote of eight to two.
> 
> During the discussion, one of the men who voted against the resolution asked this question: “Can’t we deal with this question in a more pragmatic way?” Another board member responded by saying, “No, it is our responsibility to act not according to pragmatism but according to principle.” The motion to suspend was passed by a margin of eight-to-two. The pragmatist who was outvoted, instead of submitting to the vote or bringing in a minority report, went around the board and did everything in his power to have the board’s decision overthrown. Accomplishing this, his next move was to see to it that board members with whom he disagreed were ousted from the board. Through Machiavellian machinations of corruption, this pragmatist was able to succeed. In his wake, he left the demolition of a strategically important institution of Christian learning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can read the whole article here: Ligonier Ministries | Tabletalk Magazine
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Veiled?
> 
> I know a lot more of the background to this than I really even wanted to know. To me, this isn't even remotely veiled.
Click to expand...


 I wonder if the Seminary will shut down? sad!


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## Marrow Man

Lane, did you attend Knox? Are you able to share how you know about the background of this?

Also, have you read _Imagining a Vain Thing_? If so, would you concur with the events of that book?

I shall thank you in advance, as I've apparently used up all my "thanks" today...


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## Pilgrim

greenbaggins said:


> I wouldn't touch that seminary now with a ten-foot pole.
> 
> -----Added 12/31/2008 at 04:40:12 EST-----
> 
> 
> 
> Semper Fidelis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was reading the January 2009 Tabletalk this AM and found this veiled reference very interesting:
> 
> 
> 
> In stark contrast to that, in this past year I have witnessed the worst type of corruption within the church that I have seen in my lifetime. I was chairing the board of a Christian institution of learning as we dealt with a question of the propriety of the teaching of one of the professors. The task of the board was to guard the purity of the doctrine of the institution. The motion was made to suspend the professor for a brief period of time in order to give him an opportunity to amend his views. As chairman, I did not vote, but the motion carried by a vote of eight to two.
> 
> During the discussion, one of the men who voted against the resolution asked this question: “Can’t we deal with this question in a more pragmatic way?” Another board member responded by saying, “No, it is our responsibility to act not according to pragmatism but according to principle.” The motion to suspend was passed by a margin of eight-to-two. The pragmatist who was outvoted, instead of submitting to the vote or bringing in a minority report, went around the board and did everything in his power to have the board’s decision overthrown. Accomplishing this, his next move was to see to it that board members with whom he disagreed were ousted from the board. Through Machiavellian machinations of corruption, this pragmatist was able to succeed. In his wake, he left the demolition of a strategically important institution of Christian learning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can read the whole article here: Ligonier Ministries | Tabletalk Magazine
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Veiled?
> 
> I know a lot more of the background to this than I really even wanted to know. To me, this isn't even remotely veiled.
Click to expand...


I agree. About the only veiling there was that he didn't include the name of the professor or the seminary and he didn't specifically mention the particular controversy at hand. But I guess it is a little more veiled than was Rushdoony's jab at the "Orthodox Pharisees Church" in one of his books.


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## Semper Fidelis

Pilgrim said:


> greenbaggins said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't touch that seminary now with a ten-foot pole.
> 
> -----Added 12/31/2008 at 04:40:12 EST-----
> 
> 
> 
> Semper Fidelis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was reading the January 2009 Tabletalk this AM and found this veiled reference very interesting:
> 
> 
> You can read the whole article here: Ligonier Ministries | Tabletalk Magazine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Veiled?
> 
> I know a lot more of the background to this than I really even wanted to know. To me, this isn't even remotely veiled.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree. About the only veiling there was that he didn't include the name of the professor or the seminary.
Click to expand...


He left out the board members' names (except his) and his was the only vote who we know about for sure.


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## greenbaggins

Marrow Man said:


> Lane, did you attend Knox? Are you able to share how you know about the background of this?
> 
> Also, have you read _Imagining a Vain Thing_? If so, would you concur with the events of that book?
> 
> I shall thank you in advance, as I've apparently used up all my "thanks" today...



I'm not at liberty to share how I know all the background. Therefore I will severely limit my comments. I have not read the book, and so I'm not sure how Dr. Fowler White appears in it. Dr. White has, in my estimation, bent over backwards to do the right thing, and has taken a rather heavy beating for it. Again, not sure how that book treats him.


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## Marrow Man

Thanks again for the comments. The book, in my opinion, does not treat Dr. White in a good light. It is overly polemic in nature, but does highlight the basic problems in the controversy. It portrays Dr. White as a big supporter of the John-Revelation Project and takes him to task for that. It also accuses him of associating with false teachers (i.e., Gage).


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## fredtgreco

Marrow Man said:


> Thanks again for the comments. The book, in my opinion, does not treat Dr. White in a good light. It is overly polemic in nature, but does highlight the basic problems in the controversy. It portrays Dr. White as a big supporter of the John-Revelation Project and takes him to task for that. It also accuses him of associating with false teachers (i.e., Gage).



Really? A Trinity Foundation book over the top?


No! It can't be!


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## Marrow Man

fredtgreco said:


> Marrow Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks again for the comments. The book, in my opinion, does not treat Dr. White in a good light. It is overly polemic in nature, but does highlight the basic problems in the controversy. It portrays Dr. White as a big supporter of the John-Revelation Project and takes him to task for that. It also accuses him of associating with false teachers (i.e., Gage).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really? A Trinity Foundation book over the top?
> 
> 
> No! It can't be!
Click to expand...


My crime fighting alias is "Master of the Understatement."


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## PresbyDane

Thank you for sharing


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## toddpedlar

greenbaggins said:


> I wouldn't touch that seminary now with a ten-foot pole.
> 
> -----Added 12/31/2008 at 04:40:12 EST-----
> 
> 
> 
> Semper Fidelis said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was reading the January 2009 Tabletalk this AM and found this veiled reference very interesting:
> 
> 
> 
> In stark contrast to that, in this past year I have witnessed the worst type of corruption within the church that I have seen in my lifetime. I was chairing the board of a Christian institution of learning as we dealt with a question of the propriety of the teaching of one of the professors. The task of the board was to guard the purity of the doctrine of the institution. The motion was made to suspend the professor for a brief period of time in order to give him an opportunity to amend his views. As chairman, I did not vote, but the motion carried by a vote of eight to two.
> 
> During the discussion, one of the men who voted against the resolution asked this question: “Can’t we deal with this question in a more pragmatic way?” Another board member responded by saying, “No, it is our responsibility to act not according to pragmatism but according to principle.” The motion to suspend was passed by a margin of eight-to-two. The pragmatist who was outvoted, instead of submitting to the vote or bringing in a minority report, went around the board and did everything in his power to have the board’s decision overthrown. Accomplishing this, his next move was to see to it that board members with whom he disagreed were ousted from the board. Through Machiavellian machinations of corruption, this pragmatist was able to succeed. In his wake, he left the demolition of a strategically important institution of Christian learning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can read the whole article here: Ligonier Ministries | Tabletalk Magazine
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Veiled?
> 
> I know a lot more of the background to this than I really even wanted to know. To me, this isn't even remotely veiled.
Click to expand...


Most veils are actually quite transparent


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## JM

Wow is right.


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## Zeno333

Sad state of affairs.

R.C. Sproul years ago stopped teaching at the RTS Seminary in Orlando because of RTS's stance on the "ECT" Controversy.


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## DMcFadden

Wow, indeed. It is sad to see the controversies that unhinge once sound ministries.

I am a VERY loyal R.C. fan. However, it is more than a little sad to see the controversies that have touched his own son, his leadership and employment judgments, and the seminaries with which he has been so closely associated. Feet of clay and all of that.


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## turmeric

And I'm left with questions; did Warren Gage really go too far? We had a thread about a session controlling a seminary, but I never did learn whether, in the judgment of others besides Sprould et al, Gage had gone too far with his John-Revelation Project. Any good articles out there?


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