# weird issues w/ Christmas on Sunday



## Scott (Nov 16, 2005)

*Please do not devolve into a discussion of whether Christmas is permitted by the RPW.*

Christmas this year is on a Sunday. I have actually heard Christians suggest that there should be no church service b/c of Christmas. This is almost surreal. The idea is that we should miss worship on the Lord's Day b/c of a "religious" holiday. I think this is a sign of how secular Christmas has become in protestant circles. 

It is strange how holidays in Catholic circles are feast days of obligation, actually requiring attendance at church - indeed it is sinful to not attend. In some protestant minds it is almost the opposite. The "religious" holiday is chiefly celebrated in non-religious ways that trump biblical practices (Lord's Day worship).

Now, don't think that I am arguing against Christmas. I am pro-Christmas and pro-church calendar. I am just amazed at conservative protestants who "want to put Christ back in Christmas" actually think that maybe we should not worship on Sunday, Dec. 25. 

Anyway else experience anything like this?


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## bond-servant (Nov 16, 2005)

Gee... we *can't possibly* go to church Christmas morning...it would interfere with opening all the presents!!!


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## SolaScriptura (Nov 16, 2005)

I haven't heard anyone suggest that we actually cancel Sunday morning services...
However...
I wager that due to all the travel that occurs at Christmas, many churches will be very empty that morning. Then again, it isn't like this is the first time Christmas has fallen on a Sunday. I'd love to hear from the old timers about what happened 7 years ago!


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## SolaScriptura (Nov 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by bond-servant_
> Gee... we *can't possibly* go to church Christmas morning...it would interfere with opening all the presents!!!



It won't interfere at my home... we're going to start opening presents at 5:30am!


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## Arch2k (Nov 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by SolaScriptura_
> I haven't heard anyone suggest that we actually cancel Sunday morning services...


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## fredtgreco (Nov 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by SolaScriptura_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by bond-servant_
> ...



We are going to exchange presents and let the kids open on Saturday. There is no reason to tempt them to be distracted in worship waiting to either open or play with gifts. Since Christmas Day isn't magical, I don't think any of my kids will object to opening a day early!


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## Anton Bruckner (Nov 16, 2005)

2 hours of church shouldn't interfere with anyone's Christmas. But it will be wierd if a Christian travels to a family member's house out of state to spend the Christmas. "To go visit a family to purposely celebrate a holiday that would impede on the Lord's Day".


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## gwine (Nov 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by SolaScriptura_
> I haven't heard anyone suggest that we actually cancel Sunday morning services...
> However...
> I wager that due to all the travel that occurs at Christmas, many churches will be very empty that morning. Then again, it isn't like this is the first time Christmas has fallen on a Sunday. I'd love to hear from the old timers about what happened 7 years ago!



Actually the last time December 25th was on the Lord's Day was 1994. Leap year and all.


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## SolaScriptura (Nov 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> We are going to exchange presents and let the kids open on Saturday. There is no reason to tempt them to be distracted in worship waiting to either open or play with gifts. Since Christmas Day isn't magical, I don't think any of my kids will object to opening a day early!



I actually like this idea. My kids are all young, so it isn't like they would be driven insane by anticipation if they had to wait until the end of church, but at the same time, your idea is quite good. I will bring this up to my wife...


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## piningforChrist (Nov 16, 2005)

Praise God for the Lord's Day!


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Nov 16, 2005)

What I remember about December 25, 1994 is thinking, "Wow, so this is what it is like when all the stores are closed on the Lord's Day!"


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## crhoades (Nov 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> What I remember about December 25, 1994 is thinking, "Wow, so this is what it is like when all the stores are closed on the Lord's Day!"


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Nov 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> What I remember about December 25, 1994 is thinking, "Wow, so this is what it is like when all the stores are closed on the Lord's Day!"





Ouch, that hurts.


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## Arch2k (Nov 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> What I remember about December 25, 1994 is thinking, "Wow, so this is what it is like when all the stores are closed on the Lord's Day!"


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## JohnV (Nov 16, 2005)

The Dutch have a tradition of having St. Nick Day on Dec. 5, (or is it 6?). I find that very odd. They take the secular out of Christmas to an extreme, so that Christmas is all about Christ only. That's OK; that's what we do too. But then they _also_ have a Sinter Klaas Day. That's what I don't get. 

Christmas on Sunday this year is just more convenient, because we don't go to church an extra day, that's all. It doesn't change anything for us.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Nov 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> What I remember about December 25, 1994 is thinking, "Wow, so this is what it is like when all the stores are closed on the Lord's Day!"



I thought you lived in Virginia. Blue Law...

Or did you live elsewhere then.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Nov 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by puritancovenanter_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> ...



I lived in Texas at the time. But almost everything is open on the Lord's Day in Virginia anyways.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Nov 16, 2005)

I work at Chick-Fil-A, so no Sabbath work for me!


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## NaphtaliPress (Nov 20, 2005)

My sister agreed to a switch and we will have xmas dinner at her place (which means I probably won´t get over there since will be at church all day  ). It normally is at the old Coldwell homestead; we will have Thanksgiving dinner here instead this year. BTW, this Google Earth thing is fascinating; and a bit scary. Here's a satellite view of the old homestead.


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## Scot (Nov 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by fredgreco_
> We are going to exchange presents and let the kids open on Saturday. There is no reason to tempt them to be distracted in worship waiting to either open or play with gifts. Since Christmas Day isn't magical, I don't think any of my kids will object to opening a day early!



Sorry to disappoint you Fred but Santa isn't going to deliver the gifts that early. You're just going to have to get up extra early on the Sabbath.


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## dkicklig (Nov 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by SolaScriptura_
> > I haven't heard anyone suggest that we actually cancel Sunday morning services...



We usually attend a Christmas Eve service at church, come home and light the last candle of the advent wreath, have a little birthday cake, and then open presents. This has really helped my kids identify the day as Christ's birthday. I can't think of any better finish than going to worship the next morning.


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## Arch2k (Nov 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by dkicklig_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel_
> ...



Why do you teach them that it is Christ's b-day?


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## tcalbrecht (Nov 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Slippery_
> 2 hours of church shouldn't interfere with anyone's Christmas. But it will be wierd if a Christian travels to a family member's house out of state to spend the Christmas. "To go visit a family to purposely celebrate a holiday that would impede on the Lord's Day".



Hmmm ... what's the big deal? Jesus, Mary and Joseph had to travel for His birthday.

It is sad to me that Christian invent a holiday and then need to jump through hoops to deal with the consequences.


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## Arch2k (Nov 21, 2005)

Tom


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## NaphtaliPress (Nov 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel_
> Tom


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## SRoper (Nov 21, 2005)

My church is only having one morning service instead of two morning services and an evening service.


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## JohnV (Nov 21, 2005)

> It is sad to me that Christian invent a holiday and then need to jump through hoops to deal with the consequences.


What a curious thought.


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## tcalbrecht (Nov 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by JohnV_
> 
> 
> > It is sad to me that Christian invent a holiday and then need to jump through hoops to deal with the consequences.
> ...



What's curious is that ostensibly reformed churches would alter their practices in order to elevate one Sabbath day above another. And how do they do this? For some it means they will be *eliminating* regular worship services for the convenience of their members. For others it means special music, special decorations in the church building, extra pomp and circumstance. Presbyterians acting like Anglicans and other high churchmen.

It's both curious and sad, but such is the nature of will worship.


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## Mrs.SolaFide (Nov 22, 2005)

Agreed.

I'm a secretary in a PCA church & I've already corrected 2 people who assumed we would not have ANY worship services on December 25th. One was an ELDER - the other seemed severely put out!


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## Arch2k (Nov 22, 2005)




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## Kaalvenist (Nov 22, 2005)

Our services will continue as usual. I doubt that my pastor will mention anything about it, except possible allusions to Gal. 4:10, 11 or Col. 2:23. Or both.


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## Scott (Nov 28, 2005)

"It's both curious and sad, but such is the nature of will worship."

Tom: You are an interesting fellow! Your interest in Rick Warren seems a surprising bedfellow with your views on holidays. Not necessarily inconsistent, but I bet not many old school RPWers see much merit in Warren (and that is not a comment on the merits of what Warren teaches, just an observation about who likes him and doesn't).

The interesting thing to me is that Christmas normally means more preaching and teaching of God's word. Usually there is an extra service on another day of the week than Sunday that people attend in addition to the Sunday worship. This year is the total opposite!


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## Scott (Nov 28, 2005)

> I'm a secretary in a PCA church & I've already corrected 2 people who assumed we would not have ANY worship services on December 25th. One was an ELDER - the other seemed severely put out!



Erin: I am aware of similar problems. Yikes!


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## JohnV (Nov 28, 2005)

What I find so curious is that this is so different than what I've grown up with. We would take the Santa out of Christmas instead of taking Christ out of Christmas. We don't easily question a reason to get together for worship on days of thanksgiving, of which we had seven. What else would one do with Christmas? Give presents and celebrate Santa? If only the original St. Nicholas knew what we were doing. It is such a joy to be able to celebrate the single most event in history, one so important that even the angels helped in the celebration only this one time. It will not happen again until Christ returns. And His death and resurrection, His ascent, and His return are all part of the Christmas celebrations for us. Always has been, as far back as I can remember.

It is just so extraordinary to me.


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## Scott (Nov 28, 2005)

John: I wish that the mindset you describe was common here! I agree with you 100 percent. My wife and I always attend a Christmas day service, even though our church does not nomrally have one (except when Christmas falls on a Sunday).


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## tcalbrecht (Nov 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> "It's both curious and sad, but such is the nature of will worship."
> 
> Tom: You are an interesting fellow!



That is a most generous comment!



> _Originally posted by Scott_
> 
> Your interest in Rick Warren seems a surprising bedfellow with your views on holidays. Not necessarily inconsistent, but I bet not many old school RPWers see much merit in Warren (and that is not a comment on the merits of what Warren teaches, just an observation about who likes him and doesn't).



I do not pretend to judge Rick Warren by the same standards that I would judge confessional Presbyterians. If RW had taken ordination vows from the OPC or PCA I would all over him like white on rice. But he has not, so I'm more generous in my evaluation of his ministry.



> _Originally posted by Scott_
> 
> The interesting thing to me is that Christmas normally means more preaching and teaching of God's word. Usually there is an extra service on another day of the week than Sunday that people attend in addition to the Sunday worship. This year is the total opposite!



Now I think you are being very generous. What Christimas has pretty much come to be is more cantatas and "sing ins" than the rest of the year. Perhaps an extra sermon at some special "Christmas Eve" service, but usually abbreviated so as to not detract from the choir's special selections which they have worked so hard for the last month or so to perfect.

It's odd to me that the same reformed chuches that treat Christmas and other human holidays special are often the same ones which also neglect the regular (weekly) observance of the Lord's Supper. We have to make it "more special" by only having it a few times a year.

Call me a humbug, but what I long for is that every weekly season be treated just the same -- honoring to God in all things, with good old fashioned gospel preaching and without the need for bells and whistles and other forms of will worship.


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## Scott (Nov 28, 2005)

Allot of churches have good gospel preaching at Christmas services. Most servvices involve standard elements of public worship, preaching, reading the word, singing, and prayer. It does seem odd to me when people argue that the RPW should prohibit services even if they contain only the approved elements of worship. It is essentially using the RPW to shut down the the public reading/preaching of the Word. For example, a Christmas Eve service on a Tuesday night.


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## tcalbrecht (Nov 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> It does seem odd to me when people argue that the RPW should prohibit services even if they contain only the approved elements of worship. It is essentially using the RPW to shut down the the public reading/preaching of the Word. For example, a Christmas Eve service on a Tuesday night.



I think what people disapprove of is the seasonality of such behavior, tied as it is to some pagan or otherwise unverifiable date on which Christ allegedly was born.

If a congregation had a service on Sunday morning and one again on Sunday evening, and a gathering mid week, then to introduce some annual observance based on nothing other than an historical whim seems unnecessary at best.

I realize tis the season for sentimental thinking. People get all mushy with thoughts of the baby Jesus in the manger. So it is hard to discuss why such behavior is not necessarily pleasing to God without getting into good intentions and other extraneous issues.

As Calvin wrote:



> I know how difficult it is to persuade the world that God disapproves of all modes of worship not expressly sanctioned by his word. The opposite persuasion which cleaves to them, being seated, as it were, in their very bones and marrow, is, that whatever they do has in itself a sufficient sanction, provided it exhibits some kind of zeal for the honor of God. But since God not only regards as fruitless, but also plainly abominates, whatever we undertake from zeal to his worship, if at variance with his command, what do we gain by a contrary course? The words of God are clear and distinct, "Obedience is better than sacrifice." "In vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men," (1 Sam. 15:22; Matt. 15:9). Every addition to his word, especially in this matter, is a lie. Mere "will worship" (_ethelothreeskeia_) is vanity. This is the decision, and when once the judge has decided, it is no longer time to debate.



I do not see how his description cannot apply to what we commonly refer to as "Christmas Eve Services".

[Edited on 11-28-2005 by tcalbrecht]


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## JohnV (Nov 28, 2005)

> I do not see how his description cannot apply to what we commonly refer to as "Christmas Eve Services".


Do you not see how this begs the question, Tom? You do not see what others see; others do not see what you see. The question is who is seeing the right thing, and how do we know it is the right thing?


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## tcalbrecht (Nov 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by JohnV_
> 
> 
> > I do not see how his description cannot apply to what we commonly refer to as "Christmas Eve Services".
> ...



I'm not sure it is begging the question. But I agree that we are not seeing the same thing. Confessional Presbyterians, at least until the mid 1800s, did not countenance the modern view of Christmas observance. Thus, I do not understand how confessional Presbyterians got to this situation. The Confession did not change, so the Presbyterians must have changed. History tells us that this was not a conscious decision, at least not by the church at large. In 1899, the PCUS was still making statements such as:



> There is no warrant in Scripture for the observance of Christmas and Easter as holydays, rather the contrary (see Gal. 4:9-11; Col. 2:16-21), and such observance is contrary to the principles of the Reformed faith, conducive to will-worship, and not in harmony with the simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.



It seems as if, over time, individual presbyteries simply turned a blind eye to the non-confessional practices of certain churches. Later more and more Presbyterian churches simply ignored the confession and adopted the practices of their non-reformed fellow travelers.

What Bible verses suddenly appeared to justify this long held view among Presbyterians that Christmas was not to be observed in the church of the Lord Jesus Christ?

The sad bit is that we are are too far along to be sanctioning Presbyterian churches for their non-confessional practices. Why are we surprised when other false practices slip in unnoticed?


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## yeutter (Nov 29, 2005)

I think it is wonderful that Covenanting Presbyterians and Primitive Babtists will be joining Continental Reformers and Anglicans in Church on the 25th of Dec.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Nov 29, 2005)

Christ told us to remember his death (Lord's Supper) and resurrection (the Lord's Day). Where did he say to remember his birth?


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## SolaScriptura (Nov 29, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> Christ told us to remember his death (Lord's Supper) and resurrection (the Lord's Day). Where did he say to remember his birth?



Actually, when Jesus said to do this "in remembrance of me" he was probably referring to the sum total of both his life and death. This would include his birth...


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Nov 29, 2005)

> _Originally posted by SolaScriptura_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> ...



Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, "œThis is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me."

I think the clear reference is to his sacrifice on the Cross. And, there is still the necessity for a command from God to institute a holy day in remembrance of His birth, which there is none (if you hold to the WCF and its conception of worship).


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## Me Died Blue (Nov 29, 2005)

{Moderate}

Upon starting this thread, Scott requested, "Please do not devolve into a discussion of whether Christmas is permitted by the RPW." The discussion has avoided such thus far, so let's not change that now.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Nov 29, 2005)




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## NaphtaliPress (Nov 29, 2005)

*How Xmas came to American Presbyterianism*

For what it's worth, this is what I found as far as how xmas and holy day observance came into American Presbyterianism.

From, Chris Coldwell, "The Religious Observance of Christmas and "˜Holy Days´ in American Presbyterianism." From _The Blue Banner,_ v. 8 #9-10, September/October 1999. 
See http://www.fpcr.org/blue_banner_articles/americanxmas.htm


> *The changing tide of opinion*
> The observance of "˜holy days´ crept slowing into the Presbyterian Church through popular and cultural pressures. {84} The tide began to turn in the late 19th century. In 1889, Robert L. Dabney could still write that the use of organs in worship would open the door to "˜holy days´ and more ritualistic worship in the Southern Presbyterian Church. {85}
> 
> 
> ...


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