# Jesus talks to a gay man



## ReformedWretch (Mar 11, 2005)

http://ragarambler.blogspot.com/2005/02/just-how-shocking-is-gospel.html

Pretty good.


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## alwaysreforming (Mar 11, 2005)

I read the story. Don't know what to think. It made a point, I guess, but when you try to make it "walk on all fours" like some of the people who commented on it did, then you start getting into trouble.

I also looked around at some of the other posts on the site.
Overall, seems pretty interesting. Its nice to see how another "regular guy" does it; you know, how he mixes theology and life together and doesn't always get it right but relies on a BIG Savior.

Thanks for the link. Maybe I'll stop by every now and then.


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## SolaScriptura (Mar 11, 2005)

I read the story. The problem is that these people think that Jesus and his gospel "save" homosexuals... just to allow them to stay in their lifestyle. 

Furthermore, his story offers a false analogy. The Jews hated the Samaritans for primarily ethnic reasons. Christians "don't like" homosexuals because of behavioral reasons... that and the fact that their movement is trying to undermine the very moral fabric of our society... but that too is behavioral... and therefore moral.

I wasn't really impressed at all.

[Edited on 3-12-2005 by SolaScriptura]


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## ReformedWretch (Mar 11, 2005)

> The problem is that these people think that Jesus and his gospel "save" homosexuals... just to allow them to stay in their lifestyle.



They do?


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## Scott Bushey (Mar 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> 
> 
> > The problem is that these people think that Jesus and his gospel "save" homosexuals... just to allow them to stay in their lifestyle.
> ...



Thats the way I took it also (like Ben understood it). Silliness!


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## alwaysreforming (Mar 12, 2005)

Scott B wrote:
"Thats the way I took it also (like Ben understood it). Silliness!"

Yeah, that's the problem with trying to get too many "lessons" out of this guy's parable switch. It really only says one thing: gays can be looked upon as outcasts and untouchables by the Christian community. Sometimes.

Other than that, his parable starts becoming problematic.

This is kind of like one of those authors that tries to come up with a "new teaching." He writes a book on some sort of story like this, everybody loves it, it becomes a best seller and is "studied" at church, etc, etc.


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## SolaScriptura (Mar 12, 2005)

Did you read the author's biography section? He says that he is "a friend to Bill since..." Plus he has a link to support World AIDS Day. Hmmm...


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## ReformedWretch (Mar 12, 2005)

Well thanks guys! I somehow missed that take on it.


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## SolaScriptura (Mar 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> Well thanks guys! I somehow missed that take on it.



Don't sweat it... It helps to interpret their writings in the light of their known stances. Homosexual "Christians" are adamant about the fact that their lifestyle is the product of their God-given genetics and that monogomous homosexuality is perfectly acceptable, etc...


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## ReformedWretch (Mar 12, 2005)

indeed!


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## alwaysreforming (Mar 12, 2005)

What does "a friend to Bill" mean? I'm clueless. Does that mean one's gay?


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## SolaScriptura (Mar 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by alwaysreforming_
> What does "a friend to Bill" mean? I'm clueless. Does that mean one's gay?



The fact that HE puts the quotation marks around it, and that he gives the year in which their relationship began... 

In case you didn't know, homosexuals who are either "in the closet" or who don't want to be blatantly offensive to the 'delicate sensibilites' (as was once told to me) of people like us, will often use that formula to indicate their significant other.


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## alwaysreforming (Mar 12, 2005)

You're definitely right about the homosexual thing. I went back to re-read and it was very telling when you used for examples of gay people being persecuted, he listed "being passed over for ordination, eldership, etc."

Puh-lease, give me a break! I will not go back to that website again.


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## SteveF (Apr 26, 2005)

*Man, what a little mis-information can do....*

...I found my way to your board via a Sitemeter link to my blog, and was led back to your discussion about my posting, "Jesus Talks to a Gay Man." While there is much that I'd like to address in the comments, I did want to address two huge pieces of misinformation disseminated in your comments.

For your information, a "friend of Bill" is not a gay man trying sneakily to not offend your sensibilities. And no, "Bill" is not my boyfriend (although it certainly didn't take you folks long to jump on THAT train...)

The reference is to Bill W., the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous. People who wish to let other people in the recovering community know that they are a member refer to themselves as "friends of Bill," or "friends of Bill W." (My spiritual experience in the process of getting sober led me back to church, and back to Christ.) The "since 1990" indicates that I've been sober for 14-1/2 years - which, given the fact that I was a tongue-chewing, babbling idiot drunk and thief, is proof of the power of God working through the faith of loving friends in the church and the hands and feet of faithful people in AA.

Perhaps you've read some scripture - seems a few of you have. Therefore, I share with you my own scriptural anchor:

"I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service. Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners"“of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life." (1 Timothy 1:12-16, NIV)

As for the World AIDS Day sticker, I have a number of friends who have been stricken by AIDS. Two are straight hemophiliacs, infected by blood transfusions; three are straight men or women who have been infected by through "straight" sex with people who were infected. The rest are gay men. I pray for a cure for that disease for the benefit of *all* of them - and believe that every compassionate Christian ought to be doing the same.

I find it particularly interesting that a few "clues" allowed you to jump to the assumption that I am a homosexual, and that somehow "explained" how someone could have any sympathy or concern for gays and lesbians. There certainly is a tone of smug satisfaction to several of your posts - "now we KNOW he's gay, that explains everything!" Of course, everything you *knew* to be true was, in fact, dead wrong. Nice work, boys and girls...Next time, why don't you try something desperate - and just ask, rather than spreading dis-information around?

I've done some very careful reading, and John 3:16 specifically does NOT say that "God so loved the straight world...." It's all of us - and all of "them" (whoever fits in that category for you). 

I also love the unending assumption that gays are the only ones, seemingly, who can get saved and still continue the sins that they were committing before they were saved. You folks need to let me know how you got struck pure and holy - 'cause it hasn't happened to me!

I don't know about any of you, but a careful reading of Matthew 25 tells me that in the "sheep vs. goats" comparison, I end up with the goats a lot. It's been quite a while since I've been actively involved (beyond sending someone a check) in feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, inviting in the stranger, clothing the naked.... It remains a pretty convicting passage to me.

Perhaps some in your group could benefit from some simple advice - to "think twice before speaking (or posting) once," and "judge not, lest ye be judged and found wanting."


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## Scott Bushey (Apr 26, 2005)

Steve,
I am listening to you, so continue. I guess the first thing I might ask is why you say this, " A "friend of Bill" since December 1990,"? I have many male friends, none of whom I would address as such. I believe this is where the (mis)understanding came from. 

As far as judgment goes, we in the church are called to judge each other. We are accountable, one to the other.

http://www.apuritansmind.com/ChristianWalk/McMahonTreeAndItsFruit.htm


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## SolaScriptura (Apr 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by SteveF_
> ...I found my way to your board via a Sitemeter link to my blog, and was led back to your discussion about my posting, "Jesus Talks to a Gay Man." While there is much that I'd like to address in the comments, I did want to address two huge pieces of misinformation disseminated in your comments.
> 
> For your information, a "friend of Bill" is not a gay man trying sneakily to not offend your sensibilities. And no, "Bill" is not my boyfriend (although it certainly didn't take you folks long to jump on THAT train...)
> ...



Steve - Are you a homosexual? I ask because you don't deny such in your response. You simply say that the "friend of Bill since 1990" bit is a reference to your affiliation with AA. That comment - which, since you say you have several homosexual friends, you know is often the way "they" speak of their "significant other" - plus the overall tone of your posting gives the impression.

I'll save an apology until I get a straight answer.
Ben


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## BobVigneault (Apr 26, 2005)

> I'll save an apology until I get a straight answer.



Hmmmmm, uh, I think your mean't a 'direct' answer Ben.


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## SteveF (Apr 26, 2005)

What a load of trash. 

I wrote to you, originally, to hopefully prevent the repetition of a good-sized bit of stupidity about a commonly-used term. Too late, evidently.

Sola, where do you get off, by innuendo and your supposed knowledge of "what 'they' say," making those kinds of accusations? That's the kind of crap that Joe McCarthy used fifty years ago. "Gee, Joe, he *sounds* like a gay-boy to me...maybe we better check him out..."

I can just hear it now..."He didn't SAY he wasn't a homosexual...didja see that? I told you so...I knew it all along!" Congratulations. Think what you want.

And just for grins, how do *you* know so much about what "they" say, and do, hmmm? You sure seem to think you know a lot about it - except, of course, for the fact that everything you've said so far is wrong. Where'd you get all your information, bubba? Does the shoe fit as well on *your* foot?...

"Love one another, just as I have loved you." Yeah, right.

Thanks a lot, folks. Don't worry, I won't be back to sully your board. And don't worry, Sola - I don't need apologies from fools.


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## SolaScriptura (Apr 26, 2005)

He didn't SAY he wasn't a homosexual...didja see that? I told you so...I knew it all along!

SteveF (just in case you read this)... I went to college at Moody. Through a ministry at Nothwestern I interacted with numerous homosexuals. In addition, I worked at Hewitt Associates in Lincolnshire and there they gave us an entire course on "diversity training" which, strangely, focused on little else than homosexuality. The whole course was homosexual propoganda. 
Through these avenues is how I came to know what (little) I know about the homosexual subculture.


[Edited on 4-26-2005 by SolaScriptura]


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## turmeric (Apr 26, 2005)

I hope SteveF comes back - it's interesting to have Lutherans in the discussion. It's too bad that we think someone would have to be gay to have friends with AIDS. That "friend of Bill" thing was a new one on me! Glad for your sobriety, Steve.


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## ReformedWretch (Apr 26, 2005)

I got this e-mail as I was the original poster. I am completely confused as to what is going on. I hope Steve comes back to elaborate.


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## Scott Bushey (Apr 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by SolaScriptura_
> He didn't SAY he wasn't a homosexual...didja see that? I told you so...I knew it all along!
> 
> SteveF (just in case you read this)... I went to college at Moody. Through a ministry at Nothwestern I interacted with numerous homosexuals. In addition, I worked at Hewitt Associates in Lincolnshire and there they gave us an entire course on "diversity training" which, strangely, focused on little else than homosexuality. The whole course was homosexual propoganda.
> ...



Ben,
Not to defend Steve, but ultimately, what you accuse him of is no less than an assertion. Just because he didn't deny the charge does not make him guilty of it.........

We all need to be a tad bit more graceful.


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## hhtuck (Apr 26, 2005)

*FOB*

Just thought I'd chirp up for SteveF to let everybody know that "Friend of Bill" definitely means what he says it means. Several of my friends and relatives have been helped through AA, so I never took the statement any other way.


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## SolaScriptura (Apr 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by SolaScriptura_
> ...



I know, Scott... if you look, I simply cut and pasted the very line that he "figured" I'd say.


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## turmeric (Apr 26, 2005)

Maybe someone should post an apology on his blog? I'd hate to think good Calvinists like us can't admit when we've slandered someone, however inadvertently!


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## SolaScriptura (Apr 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by turmeric_
> Maybe someone should post an apology on his blog? I'd hate to think good Calvinists like us can't admit when we've slandered someone, however inadvertently!



At the risk of sounding rather callous, I'll apologize once he says I was actually inaccurate. 

NOTE: IN WHAT FOLLOWS I AM NOT MAKING A JUDGMENT ABOUT ANY PARTICULAR PERSON'S SEXUAL ORIENTATION!!!

I've enteracted with too many homosexuals who get all offended that I dared to judge that they were homosexual on the basis of certain signs only to find out that for all their offense at the alleged inappropriateness of me making that judgment call, I was right in my judgment. And if I was right in my judgment then I don't see why I should apologize for the interpretation of the "evidence" that led me to that judgment in the first place. 

In this case...
I am just a man and thus I am prone to error. If Steve doesn't feel that he needs to set me straight then fine, that's his choice. But he can't seriously expect me to apologize for the "inappropriateness" of how I interpreted those signs without first confirming that my judgment was wrong.

[Edited on 4-27-2005 by SolaScriptura]


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## alwaysreforming (Apr 27, 2005)

I appreciated much of what Steve had to say. I think its too bad that he experienced judgment at the hands of us PB'ers, and I personally would like to apologize for offending him in any way in my previous remarks. I don't care whether or not he is gay. As he stated, why should someone who struggles with one particular sin be judged more harshly than the rest of us who simply struggle with different sins?

That being said, I did find it problematic that on his blog he seems to be indifferent to the idea of homosexuality being SIN at all. He wrote, 

"Even at the seminary I attended for a while, I watched gay men and lesbians passed over for endorsement, sidelined in their candidacy, and attacked in subtle and not-so-subtle ways."

What? This is the CHURCH we're talking about!!! Those seeking a high office in the Church are held to a very high (and Biblical) standard! The fact that they are not "endorsed" is a GOOD thing! See the problem I have now? He is in effect calling evil good, and good evil. This I have a BIG problem with!

However, if this particular man struggles with or doesn't struggle with homosexuality, he is to be treated with love and charity and is no farther removed from the prospect of God's grace than any other sinner, myself included. In fact, it seems that its just this type who "makes it into the gates of Heaven" ahead of myself. May God grant him repentance to see (and admit) that homosexuality is wrong, and not to be defended, and especially not encouraged. 

I hope he will come back and continue the dialog. And I especially hope that he finds grace when he does so. (Ben and I are going to be on our best behavior! :bigsmile: )


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## turmeric (Apr 27, 2005)

Okay, I feel better now. I agree that endorsing people in known and flagrant sin for church office is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG! I'm troubled that we chose the hill we chose to die on, though. Hopefully, he will come back or God will send someone to communicate His grace to him. His article sounded as though he might be open to the Gospel, if not actually a confused Christian.


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## Scott Bushey (Apr 27, 2005)

> _Originally posted by joshua_
> Does Steve subscribe to the LBCF or WCF?



Josh,
I have no idea. I actually allowed him membership to state his case as his thread and quote was what came under scrutiny. He is Lutheran by denomination; I believe he would at the least hold to the Heidelberg.


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