# A Non-Lapsarian Population?



## ChristopherPaul (Jul 7, 2006)

If Adam did not fall in sin and thus cause death to all, then wouldn't the world (not to mention the garden of Eden alone) be quite crowded by now?


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## BobVigneault (Jul 7, 2006)

Of course, but Adam, though he had the ability to be righteous, had to fall by necessity of God's ordination to display his glory. A non-lapsarian population was never an option. Not only that but if Adam HAD fulfilled the covenant of works then he would be our savior and that would be idolatry. So you see, it couldn't have happened any other way.


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## Arch2k (Jul 7, 2006)

> _Originally posted by BobVigneault_
> Of course, but Adam, though he had the ability to be righteous, had to fall by necessity of God's ordination to display his glory. A non-lapsarian population was never an option.



This is true _in a sense_. As far as Adam was concerned, it certainly was an option. From God's decree however, the fall was inevitable. It depends on what persepective one is speaking of. It is the difference between law (the divided sense) and decree (compound sense).



> _Originally posted by BobVigneault_
> Not only that but if Adam HAD fulfilled the covenant of works then he would be our savior and that would be idolatry. So you see, it couldn't have happened any other way.



I respectfully disagree here. If Adam would have fulfilled the CoW, he would not have been our savior, for we would not need saving. If Adam had fulfilled the CoW, he would have been obedient to the law of God, which would have been a good thing. Either way, it remains that he is the federal head of all mankind, regardless of the outcome. The fall is always looked upon (in the divided sense) as a bad thing. 

That being said, we can see God's eternal purpose working in the fall, and see that according to his eternal purpose, it was a good thing that God caused the fall so that his Son might redeem a people for himself, and He might obtain the glory for the redemption we have in him.


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## BobVigneault (Jul 7, 2006)

I respectfully disagree with you respectful disagreement Jeff. In Adam, all would have inherited eschatological life had Adam fulfilled the command. We would look to Adam as our champion, not a redeemer but certainly our substitute and the one responsible for us having eternal life. We would ascribe to him his worthiness and hence we would worship the creature, which is idolatry. Ok, your turn to respecfully disagree with my respectful disagreement. Man we are certainly respectfully disagreeable today aren't we? :bigsmile:


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## Arch2k (Jul 7, 2006)

Bob,

To say that God's original *plan* would have brought about idolatry (by worshipping Adam, which I deny BTW) is to say that God's original system was "not good." This denies God's declaration at creation, that all things are good, which I think would have included the CoW. Instead, to say that fulfillment of the CoW would have lead to sin is to create a lose-lose situation. Instead of Adam sinning by breaking the CoW, he would have also essentially sinned by fulfilling it (i.e. setting himself up as one to be worshipped instead of God). 

I do not see scripture saying this at all. Instead, scripture always views the fall as a bad thing, and the theoretical fulfillment of the CoW as a good thing as far as we are concerned.


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## BobVigneault (Jul 7, 2006)

Of course the fall was a bad thing just as the selling of Joseph was bad, just as the crucifixion by the Romans and the Jews was bad, man is culpable, responsible and guilty in each instance. Had Adam been aware of the ordination of the fall then he wouldn't have been responsible. But God did ordain the fall as the means of opening the plan that would display his glory. To Adam, goodness was nothing more than a philosophical abstract. Yes, God declared everything good and so goodness was the point of reference for all things. Goodness was the standard operating procedure. The fall is the door that opened up the demonstration of God's glory to men and angels. Apart from the fall, mercy, love (election), grace, redemption, sacrifice and just abstractions. So again I say, Adam had the ability to choose obedience but he fell by necessity of God's ordinance.

Jeff, I'm not trying to be dogmatic here and I admit, I'm shooting from the hip on some of this so I sure appreciate your feedback here. God bless you. The COW is such a tender topic in the reformed community these days and shooting from the hip can get one in a heap of trouble. I'm no theologian, I just a learner.


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