# Any vegans in here?



## josiahrussell

I've seen a few old and 'locked' posts but I thought I would start a new one.
I'm a vegan for both health and ethical reasons. Anyone else here ascribe to a plant based diet?


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## Pergamum

Jesus ate fish and lamb. Are you more ethical than Him? 

My wife was vegan when younger to help with stomach issues for a time. But once we got on the mission field and protein was harder to find she reverted back to her carnivorous state.

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## Alan D. Strange

I am curious to know what your "ethical reasons" are for adopting veganism. Would you please elaborate?

Peace,
Alan


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## josiahrussell

Pergamum said:


> Jesus ate fish and lamb. Are you more ethical than Him?
> 
> My wife was vegan when younger to help with stomach issues for a time. But once we got on the mission field and protein was harder to find she reverted back to her carnivorous state.



Obviously not... although I don't believe that Jesus is happy with how the greed for money has created today's meat industry, the effects on the environment, and the abuse of his very own creation 


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## josiahrussell

Alan D. Strange said:


> I am curious to know what your "ethical reasons" are for adopting veganism. Would you please elaborate?
> 
> Peace,
> Alan



I don't believe that the way we are abusing and taking advantage of animals is right. Just like with everything else the meat industry has turned into a money hungry business that will do anything it can to cut costs and boost profit even if it effects the lives of Gods creatures. By supporting these organisations we are also supporting the destruction of the planet, draining the seas, supporting health decline, creating diseases etc. If we were to keep the grain that is fed to livestock and used that to feed the world we could end world hunger! And lower animal product induced illnesses.
I just can't imagine that if Jesus was to come back today that he would be happy with the abuse of what is ultimately his.


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## Alan D. Strange

Thanks for the reply. May I follow up?

So it's not the eating of meat, as such, that you object to, but rather the way that you see such commercially produced. Is that correct? For example, if I hunted my meat or ethically raised it, would you still object? Let me put it this way: is there any way that I could ethically eat meat?

And, if profiteering is a concern, are you suggesting that such does not exist in the broader "health food" industry of which veganism is a part?

Do you believe that the ingestion of meat _ipso facto_ is wrong, or only the way that it is done now, and, if the later, how does a vegan diet escape all such commercial tincture? 

To put a fine point on it, if you believe that any use of meat in principle is wrong, how do you escape the condemnation of the Apostle in I Timothy 4:1-4, which appeared as a part of the Gnostic heresy that Tatian fell into (Encratites)?

Peace,
Alan

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## TylerRay

I'm mostly vegan. I don't eat any animal products... most of the time. I eat about two or three meals each week that include some sort of meat or dairy.

My reasons for eating this way are pretty much entirely health-related. When I eat dairy, I really pay for it through joint pain. Besides that, I'm convinced of a number of health benefits to a plant-based diet.

I do think that industrial farming techniques are unethical because of the effects on animals and people, but that goes for fruit and vegetable farming as well as animal farming.


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## josiahrussell

Alan D. Strange said:


> Thanks for the reply. May I follow up?
> 
> So it's not the eating of meat, as such, that you object to, but rather the way that you see such commercially produced. Is that correct? For example, if I hunted my meat or ethically raised it, would you still object? Let me put it this way: is there any way that I could ethically eat meat?
> 
> And, if profiteering is a concern, are you suggesting that such does not exist in the broader "health food" industry of which veganism is a part?
> 
> Do you believe that the ingestion of meat _ipso facto_ is wrong, or only the way that it is done now, and, if the later, how does a vegan diet escape all such commercial tincture?
> 
> To put a fine point on it, if you believe that any use of meat in principle is wrong, how do you escape the condemnation of the Apostle in I Timothy 4:1-4, which appeared as a part of the Gnostic heresy that Tatian fell into (Encratites)?
> 
> Peace,
> Alan



If you or I hunted my own meat out of necessity then no I wouldn't object, but we don't do that now. For one it isn't necessary for our health or wellbeing to consume them, and two we breed animals into suffering rather than hunting what we need from the wild.

I don't point at profiteering as the enemy rather the cause for the mistreatment. It is cheaper to force breed in confined spaces, feed crude food, pack as many as you can into sheds with no light, ventilation or clean areas to be killed cheaply for that profit, rather then spending the money providing the animals good nutrition, a healthy environment, enough space to act as they would in the wild etc. If we are take care of Gods creation with the dominion we have been given we can't act like that.

The ingestion of meat isn't wrong, it isn't healthy but it isn't spiritually or scripterly wrong.

A Vegan diet is a completely plant based diet. Easy and cheap to grow and cultivate, it takes far less water, land, and resources to make large amounts of it and it's completely sustainable and Has all the nutrition we need.




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## TylerRay

Josiah, do you really believe that we can destroy God's creation? I'd suggest that you ask yourself that question against the background of Psalm 104.

By the way, I know people who hunt for meat. It may not be necessary, per se, but it's not necessary for them to go to the grocery store for their food, either--they could always hunt for it.


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## jw

I generally limit myself to wild game (hunted myself), beef, pork, poultry (an other fowls), and freshwater/seafood. Does that count?

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## earl40

josiahrussell said:


> The ingestion of meat isn't wrong, it isn't healthy but it isn't spiritually or scripterly wrong.



If it is not "healthy" it would be "spiritually" wrong each and every time one eats meat.

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## Alan D. Strange

Thanks, Josiah, for the clarifications. You have no objection then to anyone ingesting meat as such, if done in what you understand to be an ethical way (essentially you think that it is immoral to mass produce meat and make a profit; the undesirable conditions that you describe--I personally don't dispute that they are repugnant--is the way that those producing it make it as profitable as it is). Your remarks about hunting, however, seem gratuitous and ill-informed to me.

You believe that a vegan diet is healthier for everyone. That, of course, is disputed among medical experts (one can marshal them on either side of this, as well as many other health arguments). You come across a little strong here, as if there is a "thus saith the Lord" when it comes to the health question. Again, I Tim. 4 (3-5) must come into view here. It can't be unhealthful to eat ethically raised meat on all occasions as the Apostle's admonition to receive all with thanks (including meat) would be unintelligible. 

Perhaps you think I'm being a bit exacting here and you just wanted to talk about vegan diets. However, it is you who have made ethical and health arguments so I thought it not only fair but wise to examine such. I'll bow out now as I do not follow a vegan diet and so have nothing to offer in that regard. 

Peace,
Alan

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## OPC'n

I was a vegan until I thought I would vomit. It was the longest three days of my life.

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## Logan

Just asking: but it seems to me that you're essentially trying to make a statement against abusing animals raised for meat. Which is great. But I wonder how big of a statement it is really making.

Wouldn't it instead make a better statement if you purchased meat from say, local farmers, or my father who raises grass-fed cattle that never know a stressful day in their life right up until slaughtering? 

Wouldn't producing more demand for "ethical" meat be a better way of signalling to industry than not eating meat at all? Trying to understand here.

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## ZackF

OPC'n said:


> I was a vegan until I thought I would vomit. It was the longest three days of my life.



What did you eat? Lol


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## Stope

Im mostly plant based (I dont say "vegan" because most vegans come off as a bit smug).

I do it for health and self-control reasons (but I dont doubt that the Meat machine doesnt inflict serious pain on these helpless animals... "Whoever is righteous has regard for the life of his beast, but the mercy of the wicked is cruel." Proverbs 12:10)


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## OPC'n

ZackF said:


> What did you eat? Lol


Well, I love meat and love love cheese (wi cheese is really good), so I bought the "good" imitation of those things. My sister went vegan cuz it makes her feel better, so she knew all the "good" brands of imitation meat to buy. I think she's gone nuts lol.


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## OPC'n

BTW, I do think there are some industries that treat the animals cruelly so I try to buy from those that don't. I guess I could try harder.


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## ZackF

OPC'n said:


> Well, I love meat and love love cheese (wi cheese is really good), so I bought the "good" imitation of those things. My sister went vegan cuz it makes her feel better, so she knew all the "good" brands of imitation meat to buy. I think she's gone nuts lol.



Some of those substitutes are no doubt toxic with the vegetable oils and so forth. Blech

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## Claudiu

TylerRay said:


> I'm mostly vegan. I don't eat any animal products... most of the time. I eat about two or three meals each week that include some sort of meat or dairy.
> 
> My reasons for eating this way are pretty much entirely health-related. When I eat dairy, I really pay for it through joint pain. Besides that, I'm convinced of a number of health benefits to a plant-based diet.
> 
> I do think that industrial farming techniques are unethical because of the effects on animals and people, but that goes for fruit and vegetable farming as well as animal farming.





I tend towards a vegan, or mainly eat a whole food plant based diet. When I do eat meat it's not red meat, but chickens my family grows or fish (although I did have a lot of moose meat from a successful hunt this past year). This way of eating is mainly for health reasons.


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## Bill The Baptist

josiahrussell said:


> If we were to keep the grain that is fed to livestock and used that to feed the world we could end world hunger!



I'm curious as to why you think this would be the case. As someone who lives in a farming community, I have some idea of how much money it takes to run a commercial farm. Farmers simply can't afford to produce grain or anything else for people who can't afford to pay for it. The reason why people are starving has nothing to do with production capacity and everything to do with economics. Most people who are starving in the world are doing so because they live in countries with terrible leaders who are only seeking to enrich themselves. Eliminating the meat industry will not fix this.

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## Claudiu

josiahrussell said:


> A Vegan diet is a completely plant based diet. Easy and cheap to grow and cultivate, it takes far less water, land, and resources to make large amounts of it and it's completely sustainable and Has all the nutrition we need.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Buying good, organic fruits and veggies can get pretty expensive. While bad, cheap beef your average American buys is quite a bit cheaper. I would have to find this, but I remember it mentioned before (perhaps an official study) that it takes more land and resources to grow plants. Or maybe it was that if everyone were to go completely vegan we would have to use more land and resources, whereas meat has more calories packed in a field to feed more people,


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## Claudiu

earl40 said:


> If it is not "healthy" it would be "spiritually" wrong each and every time one eats meat.



Would you say this about smoking?


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## timfost

Not vegan here, so nothing to offer in that regard.

I do hunt and wanted to offer a perspective on this. Where I live in southern PA, the deer population is very large, compounded by the lack of any natural predators. If we didn't hunt, many of the deer would starve over winter, and many more would be hit by motor vehicles.

I feel like with these considerations, hunting provides not only healthier meat, but is also caring for God's creation in managing it.

I do agree with you that we should care for the creation. My family raises most of our own meat. I don't buy much fish, but I believe it's a good idea to be aware of what fish are caught in a sustainable way.

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## earl40

Claudiu said:


> Would you say this about smoking?



No I would not. in my opinion having one or a couple of cigs a day is not necessarily unhealthy.


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## Claudiu

earl40 said:


> No I would not. in my opinion having one or a couple of cigs a day is not necessarily unhealthy.



The science would show otherwise. But I appreciate you said your opinion.


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## ZackF

Claudiu said:


> The science would show otherwise. But I appreciate you said your opinion.



I know hormesis isn't completely understood but there is a frequency of smoking that is not harmful. We just know don't what it is.


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## LilyG

I'm paleo(ish) for health reasons.

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## Ryan&Amber2013

Would you all agree that humans were created to be vegetarians and that animals were only given for food after the fall at the time the ark landed?


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## Logan

Claudiu said:


> The science would show otherwise. But I appreciate you said your opinion.



Earl does work in the medical field...

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## ZackF

I'll give the OP a longer response since he is a believer and from what I can gather..not a troll. I can't say much for the Vegan presence online. I find them a menace due to their religiosity and coercive tendencies.

There is a treatment of animals that falls under the duty of stewardship and obedience to the Lord's Day. This doesn't demand abstinence from consuming animal product. Furthermore, less than ideal or even poor conditions of livestock are less important than the life and health to those unable to afford higher quality and more ethically (whatever definition) raised animals. Vegan activists have little to offer other than time and left-wing environmental activism to support their agenda. They certainly don't have science. Every human society since the the Fall, has been omnivore to some extent. I'll concede there are illnesses that make the digestion of animal product a challenge, even a debilitating challenge for some. However, there are few in that category and they require well planned supplementation.

I prefer grass-fed meat, free range chicken, hormone free pork, wild-caught fish, and raw dairy products yet finances and availability consistently push back against those options. Anything by farmer/rancher Joel Salatin is worth reading. He is a self-described Christian, Libertarian lunatic. What's not to like?  Just google his name. Foolish and crony laws contribute to the high cost of this. Many of the reasons for the higher cost of this that are because of farm subsidies. Subsidies that encourage cheap grain to feed livestock that isn't designed for grain. Also, how many egg carton of 'free range hens' say 'vegetarian fed.' Hello! Birds require bugs as well as seeds. This omission leads to a horrible Omega 3 to Omega 6 ratio in even free range chickens.

As far as hunting as concerned, I've did a lot of it. Mainly in my youth. I wouldn't mind doing so now but time and opportunities are hard to come by. I'm not of the 'hunting should be only for food' camp though it is wasteful not to eat what you kill or find someone who will.

We've known since the 1980s much of the foreign aid with food and money ends up in the hands of corrupt officials and wasted. That's why there is chronic starvation in those countries to begin with. The late Hugo Chavez and his successors have starved Venezuela. They ran out all of the producers. Not 'the West' or bad weather. Natural food disasters recover much quicker. It has to rain or stop raining sometime.

In conclusion I also believe in the industrial revolution and the division of labor. Farmers and ranchers are now able to raise enough food with 1/100 the manpower it took in past centuries. We can now transport food from more profitable areas to areas unable to grow and raise food. This is a win. Starvation is asymptotically approaching eradication in the West. Huge strides are being made in India and China as well. When the real cost of food has dropped so much and feeds so many people we should count it as a win when we start talking about what animals may think of it and a better life for them.

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## jw

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> Would you all agree that humans were created to be vegetarians and that animals were only given for food after the fall at the time the ark landed?


I agree that meat is a gift from God, of which we may partake freely, the same as all His good gifts. I agree that we are responsible not to over-indulge in this free gift (or any of God's free gifts), but rather, acknowledge that they are to be received and enjoyed with thankfulness to God. I disagree that science (many times, _falsely_ so-called) is the final answer to determine the morality of a thing, considering its fallibility in determining _healthy_, etc.

I am fine with folks having scruples as to what they will eat personally (_why_ would I try to bind their conscience to eat meat?), but I am _not_ okay with implying that eating of meat is immoral because, perhaps, at some point, an animal was poorly treated, or a person _greedily_ profited. I am all for grassfed, free-range, gluten-free, cage-free, organic, yada yada yada stuff, but I am not decidedly and necessarily _against_ eating grainfed, genetically modified, non-organic, gluten-full, high-fructose syrup containing food on moral grounds. In fact, budget and availability wise, that's usually the route I go.

Should we care for our beasts? Of course. Am I responsible to research every avenue of possible mistreatment of an animal before partaking of it? I do not believe so. _May_ someone do that, and object to their own partaking in such an endeavor? Sure. May they judge me for _not_ doing so? I don't think so. The kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

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## Scott Bushey

josiahrussell said:


> The ingestion of meat isn't wrong, it isn't healthy but it isn't spiritually or scripterly wrong.



In fact, eating meat and saturated fats is better for u. Can I get a shout out to my pal, BACON? I have been paleo for 7 years. I work in the medical field and have access to all sorts of physicians. The school of thought has shifted 180 degrees. Whereas, the thinking was, more grains and veggies vs meat and saturated fats, has now digressed. The thinking is, we are all low on fat from low fat eating, been gorged with fake fats and vegetable oils to the degree where we all have a level of early alzheimers and the level of inflamation is the majority of the population is ridiculous.

7 years ago, I had htn. I was put on Norvasc. I was inflamed; my crp was off the charts-the docs I knew looked at me as if I was a circus act. As well, pre-diabetic; my triglycerides were greater than 700!

I went Paleo on the suggestion of a nephrologist I know. I am now his poster child. I lost 30 lbs-off blood pressure meds, my chemistry is within normal limits now. I only use good fats, coconut oil, avacado oil, grapessed oil. No grains to speak of except rice-I tolerate rice, just fine.

But yea, no, the thinking that meat and saturated fats is bad for you is old school; in fact google it! Ask the docs.

My paleo chain mail if interested: https://www.facebook.com/notes/scott-bushey/my-paleo-chain-mail/10152273344660092/

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## LilyG

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> Would you all agree that humans were created to be vegetarians and that animals were only given for food after the fall at the time the ark landed?



Actually Bavinck thought most reformers were of the persuasion that meat was permitted even before the flood.


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## Edward

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> Would you all agree that humans were created to be vegetarians and that animals were only given for food after the fall *at the time the ark landed?*


 (Emphasis supplied)

No, count me out on that one. 

"Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3 And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought an offering of the fruit of the ground to the Lord. 4 Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat." 

Cain may have been a vegetarian (and we know how he turned out) but it is not a strained reading to see Abel as a meat eater.

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## Claudiu

Edward said:


> Cain may have been a vegetarian (and we know how he turned out) ...


 
mic drop!

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## Edward

Claudiu said:


> The science would show otherwise. But I appreciate you said your opinion.



The same science that has proven global warming is settled science? Is that why Jerry Lewis died at the young age of 91 after having been a chain smoker?

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## jw

I also want to highlight the deadly plight that millions of field mice face year after year, as new gardens are plowed and prepped for vegetable crops. No warnings. No evacuations. No funerals or memorials. And probably no posthumous use of them for human consumption. Save the field mice!

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## Southern Presbyterian

"...for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For he who in this _way_ serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another. Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food."

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## ZackF

Joshua said:


> I also want to highlight the deadly plight that millions of field mice face year after year, as new gardens are plowed and prepped for vegetable crops. No warnings. No evacuations. No funerals or memorials. And probably no posthumous use of them for human consumption. Save the field mice!


That's why you are a fruitarian no doubt?

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## Edward

Joshua said:


> Save the field mice!



But they exhale greenhouse gasses.

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## Ray

I'm a Meatatarian I try to eat free range and organic. But sometimes I get that Mc chicken itch

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## Bill The Baptist

Ray said:


> But sometimes I get that Mc chicken itch



McChicken itch sounds ghastly. Perhaps there are good reasons to go vegan after all

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## Jake

In the old covenant, the Jews were not able to eat freely of the meats we do today (e.g., no pork) nor were they able to eat vegan (i.e., required to eat lamb at the passover). Now with freedom in Christ we can adopt both of these diets, among others.

I personally see no compelling reason to abstain from eating animal products. In fact, I think some of the most efficient ways to get protein as the earth's population increases will be from (farmed) fish and insects, once we get over the latter.

I think the more pressing problem in our day and age is gluttony before we even get to the problem of where to source our food. While I admit times for both feasting and fasting, in general we should eat in moderation to meet our body's energy needs and not beyond that. A lot of the problems we face would be solved by everyone eating less, as many of us (myself included in the past) tend to carry extra for the never-seem-to-be-coming lean times with us always.

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## Ryan&Amber2013

Edward said:


> (Emphasis supplied)
> 
> No, count me out on that one.
> 
> "Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3 And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought an offering of the fruit of the ground to the Lord. 4 Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat."
> 
> Cain may have been a vegetarian (and we know how he turned out) but it is not a strained reading to see Abel as a meat eater.



That's a good point. As well, weren't Adam and Eve clothed with skins after the fall? I doubt they would have just let the meat rot without putting it to use.

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## lynnie

Just curious.....

Do you eat food grown on typical American mega agriculture farms, sprayed with glycophosphate and all sorts of other things? If not, and you eat organic, do you know how many sprays they use (a lot). Do you eat food that is grown only on composted ground with no soil depletion or do you eat food from farms relying on fertilizers and depleting the soil? 

Do you eat anything at all grown in the midwest ( corn, soy, wheat) and irrigated by the rapidly shrinking Ogallala aquifer, contributing to the loss of family wells? How about anything at all from Central valley (99% of our almonds, walnuts, pistachios, strawberries and broccoli, 95% of canned tomatoes, and large percents of peppers, spinach, lettuce, and all sorts of produce and rice). If so, you are contributing to that shrinking aquifer and land subsistence , with encroaching salt water also threatening to destroy family and municipal wells. It takes a gallon of water to grow one little almond...do you drink almond milk? 

Do you consume bananas, coffee, or tea, or chocolate? Have you studied the greed and corruption of the great plantations sending us those items, picked by impoverished workers with usually no human rights or health benefits?

You are either living on fresh air and sunshine, or you are part of the same fallen and corrupt system meat eaters are part of. Unless you grow all your own food with composted soil renewing techniques and no sprays, and water it with rain or from an abundant aquifer, you are part of the broken creation that groans and awaits our redemption. Personally I think you should repent of being so ignorant and go eat a hamburger.

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## Claudiu

Edward said:


> The same science that has proven global warming is settled science? Is that why Jerry Lewis died at the young age of 91 after having been a chain smoker?



Are you anti science?


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## py3ak

lynnie said:


> Do you eat food grown on typical American mega agriculture farms.... Do you eat food that is grown only on composted ground with no soil depletion or do you eat food from farms relying on fertilizers and depleting the soil?
> 
> Do you eat anything at all grown in the midwest... How about anything at all from Central valley...



Since the original poster lives in Australia, it's possible that neither Iowa nor California contribute very much to his diet...


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## Reformed Roman

While I really enjoyed reading this entire convo and discussion, I think it slightly hijacked the main point of the thread. Sounds like Josiah was looking to find some like minded people who are on similar diets and discuss them. Ended up being a huge debate on vegetarianism. Don't get me wrong, I find that the questions asked were very good questions and I appreciate some of the challenges, but something to consider . I know my wife has felt terrible as of late. It seems every time she eats dairy it makes her feel sick, as well as anything with gluten. We of all people laughed a little when people were in a "gluten free fad" but she tried it as some said it would help and she has felt a million times better between cutting milk and gluten out.

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## Logan

Claudiu said:


> Are you anti science?



I'm certain Edward is not. But as an engineer myself I take lots of things with a grain of salt. Examples abound, such as the American Heart Association, without any real studies, speaking out against eating fatty foods (because "everyone knows" they are bad). They may have inadvertently increased the number of deaths related to heart disease. Reference Scott's video link above and Gary Taubes work below.

http://garytaubes.com/vegetable-oils-francis-bacon-bing-crosby-and-the-american-heart-association/

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## Ed Walsh

Reformed Roman said:


> While I really enjoyed reading this entire convo and discussion, I think it slightly hijacked the main point of the thread.



Keep in mind that Josiah started this in the OP by his mentioning "ethical reasons" for his veganism.

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## Tyrese

Joshua said:


> I generally limit myself to wild game (hunted myself), beef, pork, poultry (an other fowls), and freshwater/seafood. Does that count?



I wish I knew how to hunt. Hunting wasn't something my family did growing up. Are there any organizations that you know of that offer hunting lessons?


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## Edward

Claudiu said:


> Are you anti science?



I'm anti- fake science with doctored numbers. 

I don't have much respect for hired gun scientists who rent themselves to the best paying lawyers. (Anti-smoking was a multi-billion dollar industry).

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## Edward

py3ak said:


> Since the original poster lives in Australia, it's possible that neither Iowa nor California contribute very much to his diet...



You made me look. 



> U.S. exports of agricultural products to Australia, our 20th largest agricultural export market, totaled $1.3 billion in 2016. Leading domestic export categories included pork and pork products, prepared food, fresh fruit, dairy products, and dog and cat food.


https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/southeast-asia-pacific/australia

He probably doesn't eat much of the cat and dog food, but we probably get him with fresh fruit.

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## jw

Tyrese said:


> I wish I knew how to hunt. Hunting wasn't something my family did growing up. Are there any organizations that you know of that offer hunting lessons?


Tyrese, I am sure there are, but I don't personally know of any. A cursory search for "learn to hunt Maryland" turned this up:

https://honest-food.net/want-to-learn-to-hunt-get-started-now/

Hunting is rewarding on two primary levels for me.

1. Attainment of meat, and enjoyment of thereafter.
2. Enjoying God's creation where I hunt (Arkansas), regardless if I "get" anything or not.

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## TylerRay

Edward said:


> U.S. exports of agricultural products to Australia, our 20th largest agricultural export market, totaled $1.3 billion in 2016. Leading domestic export categories included pork and pork products, prepared food, fresh fruit, dairy products, *and dog*


I didn't know dog was one of our major agricultural products, much less a major export.

Josiah, is Asian food popular in Australia?


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## timfost

Tyrese said:


> I wish I knew how to hunt. Hunting wasn't something my family did growing up. Are there any organizations that you know of that offer hunting lessons?



You don't live too far away from us. Every November, some of our (male) church members along with members from a sister church (and guests) do a "rendezvous." It's Friday to Saturday and we target practice, hunt, eat and do Bible studies. PM me if you are interested!

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## lynnie

Ruben, I'll stand by my general point. Australian farming is modern and westernized with soil depletion, chemical sprays, and aquifer depletion. It is happening all over the world. "The earth will wear out like a garment". Creation is groaning. It isn't just meat production, it is plant production as well.


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## jwithnell

Given that Peter was given all kinds of food to eat, including clean and unclean animals, I don't think it much matters when man starting eating meat. 

Critical to this discussion: plenty of the world's population eats meat because the critters can live on marginal lands that cannot support grain farming. Goats and sheep can live where no grain would be produced. Parts of the American west run cattle on open range for at least part of their lives. We had a lot of acreage destroyed by people trying to implement Eastern-style farming on lands that really could only support cattle. I find the "eat plants so everyone can eat" argument specious.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Tyrese

timfost said:


> You don't live too far away from us. Every November, some of our (male) church members along with members from a sister church (and guests) do a "rendezvous." It's Friday to Saturday and we target practice, hunt, eat and do Bible studies. PM me if you are interested!



Will do!


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## py3ak

Edward said:


> You made me look.
> 
> https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/southeast-asia-pacific/australia
> 
> He probably doesn't eat much of the cat and dog food, but we probably get him with fresh fruit.



Well done, thanks!



lynnie said:


> Ruben, I'll stand by my general point. Australian farming is modern and westernized with soil depletion, chemical sprays, and aquifer depletion. It is happening all over the world. "The earth will wear out like a garment". Creation is groaning. It isn't just meat production, it is plant production as well.



Certainly, all food production is going to require a lot of resources.


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## Grant Van Leuven

My family is mainly vegan (and as much as we can be, organic) due to what we learned with the Gerson Therapy in trying to heal my wife from colon cancer (she was 38). We began far too late, and we lost her September 14 last year. We continue to reflect what we learned about preventative health from the GT to protect and prevent sickness for our lives, and especially for the children. Diet is an important part of preventing cancer (any basic article on cancer anywhere recognizes this, even though chemo is pushed -- chemo only helped kill my wife quicker). When you learn about how your body works and how to best fuel its health, there is an ethical element just as when you learn what smoking cigarettes will do to you (the WLC 135 and 136 teaches it is our duty to preserve and protect life, and a vegan diet is especially effective in doing so). I do recognize the Bible allows eating meat (it is not unlawful). But there are other considerations pre-Fall and how the Creator made our body to work, how He would thus have designed food (pre-meat eating) to work for the best operation of the body with everything we need in non-meat sources, and how we'll be eating in heaven (no meat, because no death - a result of sin) that should at least give us pause to consider how to best work with our body in the mean time. Dealing with objections to how a vegan diet could provide proper protein, etc., I began studying the Word to consider these kind of things. Here's a devotion I did with our family (including extended members who were fighting us on this new diet for the children): http://puritanchurch.com/daniel-diet-devotion/ By the way, we feel way better when we eat vegan, and we just got back from a 5-week trip overseas and couldn't WAIT to get back to our own diet, which is mainly vegan. We don't turn away what we're given as guests, and we're not completely vegan, but we notice a big difference in our health and digestion when we eat mainly vegan, organic, etc. Also, filtering water of chlorine and fluoride is something to be paying great attention to (And avoiding excess sugar).

Reactions: Like 1


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## LilyG

Isaiah 25:6
"On this mountain the LORD Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine-- the best of meats and the finest of wines."

Probably black bean burgers. 

(Edited: Regarding "no meat in heaven")

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## George Bailey

Scott Bushey said:


> In fact, eating meat and saturated fats is better for u. Can I get a shout out to my pal, BACON? I have been paleo for 7 years. I work in the medical field and have access to all sorts of physicians. The school of thought has shifted 180 degrees. Whereas, the thinking was, more grains and veggies vs meat and saturated fats, has now digressed. The thinking is, we are all low on fat from low fat eating, been gorged with fake fats and vegetable oils to the degree where we all have a level of early alzheimers and the level of inflamation is the majority of the population is ridiculous.
> 
> 7 years ago, I had htn. I was put on Norvasc. I was inflamed; my crp was off the charts-the docs I knew looked at me as if I was a circus act. As well, pre-diabetic; my triglycerides were greater than 700!
> 
> I went Paleo on the suggestion of a nephrologist I know. I am now his poster child. I lost 30 lbs-off blood pressure meds, my chemistry is within normal limits now. I only use good fats, coconut oil, avacado oil, grapessed oil. No grains to speak of except rice-I tolerate rice, just fine.
> 
> But yea, no, the thinking that meat and saturated fats is bad for you is old school; in fact google it! Ask the docs.
> 
> My paleo chain mail if interested: https://www.facebook.com/notes/scott-bushey/my-paleo-chain-mail/10152273344660092/




Just out of curiosity, how do you take the Lord's Supper?


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## Scott Bushey

George,
A sliver of bread is inconsequential in the Paleo diet.


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