# We Need Reformed Ministers Sent



## C. Matthew McMahon (Nov 7, 2004)

Its missionary week at our church. Suffice it to say, I would rather be in my fifth grade elementary school eating the mystery meat for lunch.

The missionary this morning was absolutely terrible. I understand that there is somewhat of language barrier. But it goes far beyond that. The only thing that stopped me from leaving the service while he spoke was Scott 
sitting next to me. Literally, Scott stopped me from getting up. You can applaud him for that. 

This missionary used 3 illustrations of missionaries who defied their pastor and thought that was a good thing because they "stepped out in faith." God "blessed" their ministry as a result. It took him 40 minutes to open the bible, and when he did, it was so vague that 
I am sure most missed some of his "points" (as the people who sat in front of us where doing just about everything else but listening). If that is the kind of missionary we are sending out to "preach" then we ought to rethink, heartily, who we are supporting. We need solid Reformed men in the field who know how to responsibly handle the Word of God. 

This gentlemen made more jokes than he did exposit the Word.

Ah, another Lord's day in a South Florida PCA church.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by webmaster_
> 
> The only thing that stopped me from leaving the service while he spoke was Scott
> sitting next to me. Literally, Scott stopped me from getting up. You can applaud him for that.



This is semi-off the subject, but I would be nervous preaching in a church where Matthew and Scott were in the audience.

Seriously, I that those services were only in the Southern Baptists churches that I grew up in, especially the "stepping out in faith" part.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Nov 7, 2004)

> but I would be nervous preaching in a church where Matthew and Scott were in the audience.



I would be too!


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## fredtgreco (Nov 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by webmaster_
> 
> 
> > but I would be nervous preaching in a church where Matthew and Scott were in the audience.
> ...



I wouldn't! 

It is the power of the gospel and the Word of God, not the man.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Nov 7, 2004)




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## turmeric (Nov 7, 2004)

Goodness, I thought you were describing missions week in my old Dispie church! We can't send 'em 'till we got 'em here!


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## Scott (Nov 8, 2004)

Was the missionary with MTW?


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## Scott Bushey (Nov 8, 2004)

Scott,
The minister is the founder of the Church Without Walls in Philadelphia, PA.


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## sastark (Nov 8, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> Scott,
> The minister is the founder of the Church Without Walls in Philadelphia, PA.



Sounds more like the Church Without Foundation.....


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## PASSION4TRUTH (Jan 2, 2005)

*reformed missionaries*

Hey all. I hate to do this but it is necessary. I am in full agreement with the sentiments shared by Matt. (Next time take Scott with you and leave). I have traveled to Chile, Argentina, Peru, Colombia, Brazil, and Germany for several months in each place (usually 6). In each country I met "missionaries" who were "working to spread the gospel" yet who had no basic concepts of covenant theology or true evangelism, and thus the gospel itself. They were overtly pragmatic in most of their methods despite claiming to be "Reformed." (most were Baptists mind you, but many of the Presbyterians I met fell into the same boat.) I am not
against being pragmatic in the sense that if God says do something and He promises the results, then that is fine.
For example, pray and expect answers. That's pragmatic is it not. But this shallow "let me tell you a story about what God is doing here" is not beneficial in my opinion.

Now I am living in the Czech Republic working as a teacher and for the government, but making very little. (Please pray for me). I know of a few missionaries (I will not mention the names of organizations they work for) who are also propagating a diluted version of the gospel of grace. This disturbs me particularly because people in these organizations are supporting their work with financial assistance. I have no hard feelings against any boards but most of them have no concepts of accountability nor require their members to be directly under the guidance and fellowship of elders. 

I came to serve Christ in the most secular place in all of Europe as a teacher and to do research for a MA. And let me assure any of you who want to be missionaries, know God, trust God, guard the truth, and He will take care of you. 

BY the way I would appreciate if any of you would email me with the latest news about books or conferences or events happening with churches in America. I am studying three languages now and it takes up all of my time.

Angelo, passion4truth

"Lord forgive me if I have been too harsh, but I desire for Your truth to prevail against all else. May You grant each of us a deeper passion for the truth."


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## Irishcat922 (Jan 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> Scott,
> The minister is the founder of the Church Without Walls in Philadelphia, PA.



Isn't that Paula White's Church from TBN. I looked up her website one time and her and her husband Pastor a church by that name.


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## dkicklig (Jan 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Irishcat922_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> ...



Church Without Walls is a ministry to Muslims. The premise is to evangelize and provide discipleship for Muslims who because of safety reasons cannot leave their families or communities here in the US to join a traditional church. Many muslims who become Christians here in the US are not only disowned and abused by their families, but if they everreturn to their home country they put their lives in serious jeapordy.


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## Irishcat922 (Jan 2, 2005)

Who would've guessed Paula White and Muslims!


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## strangerpilgrim (Mar 31, 2005)

*First hand testimony, and a call...*

Hi! I'm new here. Read this thread with some interest, being a lady who was worked as a mssnry in a closed communist country for the last six years. For six years I have been looking for any other reformed mssnry or underground group and have found little, with the exception of one OPC work on the other side of this very large country. I have visited dozens of underground places, and found all of them distressingly charismatic and all run by women. I know more than 100 mssnrs here, and not one of them is reformed by any stretch of the imagination. I thought I'd give you a few stories to illustrate the situation here. Maybe this will give pause to just one elder or young man under care: this country languishes under the need for good teaching. I apologize for the length and hope a few will have the time to read it.

First, there are the non-reformed mssnrys and their experiences. I know many of them. Most of them have been to prison, but for completely avoidable reasons. It begins because "numbers" are of more importance to them then anything else. (Which it of necessity must be if getting people saved is your primary motivation, as opposed to seeing the Lrd glorified). Because they need numbers, (and, to be fair, this is not all their fault. They are pushed by their home sending agencies who will yank them right out if there aren't enough numbers), therefore they must make it easy to become and be accepted by others as a true believer. The "pray the magic words and if you are sincere, whether or not you even understand what you just said, Gd has to save you" syndrome. Making this worse is the fact that they approach evnglism the same way here as they would in the United States south--assuming that everyone they talk to knows the idea that there is one Gd who made the world, knows they are a bad person or a least a person who does bad things, and that there is no need to tell the person anything other then that Jss died for them and can save them and take them to heaven. In this country "gd" doesn't mean what it means to a westerner. It means any kind of unexplainable spirit entity or enlightened person after their death. Hence many have no opposition to adding this Gd to their panoply of existing gds. To them heaven is a state of nothingness that is the ultimate rest, and to this state they will eventually attain if their life is good enough. Add to these methods and background information deficiencies the fact that it is polite in this culture to say whatever you think the person you are speaking to wants to hear and that it is horribly rude to insult a teacher (which is the cover job for most of the mssnrs) by disagreeing with him, and that so many here are hoping that by befriending a foreigner they can get a ticket to America, and you have a recipe for disaster. 

Their "chrches" grow by leaps and bounds, and they send home their glowing reports. A year or two into it, great numbers begin dropping out for various reasons: They just get tired of it, they find that they aren't supposed to believe in their other gds anymore, which they didn´t understand when they made their "œdecision," they are shocked to find that they must believe the OT, too, and the "œunscientific stupidity of Gd creating the world", or they just have a big fight with the teacher or some other person in the group. Then the mssnry gets jaded and starts complaining to the rest of us how the people here are too weak and easily led astray and that they'll never be able to have their own churches or do anything themselves. The people will always be dependent on the American mssnry to teach and guide them. And they don't understand why their converts won't start living a Chrstn lifestyle. I mean, they made the first decision all by themselves! Why can't they make this one, too, and just be determined enough to change? And, in the worst cases, some of their former converts who leave either over disenchantment with the mssnry or because of a disagreement with some other person in the group often get their revenge by reporting the whole group and the teacher to the authorities. They land the teacher in jail and endanger the livelihood and even the lives of everyone connected with the group. Then the teacher "œsuffers for Chrst" when he wouldn´t have had to if his methods had been biblical to begin with.

That is just the beginning of the problems created. I made the mistake of attempting to work with several non-reformed mssnry in a small town here--not in everything, certainly, but in a few areas where there was strength in numbers. I was driven out. The first problem that set them on me was the teaching of the children. Several mothers I knew had made professions of faith, and were anxious for help in teaching their children (all very young). I translated the Children´s Catechism for them and then assisted these mothers in weekly lessons for their children. (The children here are in school from 7:00am to 9:00pm Monday through Saturday by gov order, and both parents are required to work full-time, so the time left for parents to teach them every week is limited). This was a tremendous undertaking, and I gladly accepted the help of these other mssrys when offered. They proceeded to take from me any and every part in the teaching. They replaced the Bble lessons and the catechisms with a five minute reading from a Bble story picture book and one or two songs, because that was a "œmore engaging teaching method." When they hadn´t had time to prepare, they would try to show Disney´s Prince of Egypt as the kids SS lesson. My insistence that this not be done made everyone a bit upset. The final blow was when several of these mothers, who had been studying regularly with some of these mssnrs, came to me expressing their desire to learn more and asking me to teach them. They had originally asked to study with me, but I lived farther away and our schedules did not match. The non-reformed people stepped in offering to do it, and were accepted. But my schedule had changed and I had moved closer, and these mothers expressed two concerns: first, that they were disturbed by some things said by their teachers, specifically that I was not trustworthy because I wasn´t Baptist, and second that they felt they were not learning very much. I agreed to teach them (the first two lessons being to correct their idea that Baptists are the only Chrstns). Before agreeing to teach them, I told them to discuss the matter with their current teachers and to do everything they could to avoid offending these fellow believers. Despite this, and despite the fact that there was certainly nothing whatsoever which these mssnrs could hold up as any kind of prior "œclaim" upon or "œownership" of these women (having not even been a part of their initial introduction to the L or there when these ladies made a profession of salvation), they insisted on believing that I had "œstolen their sheep" and was prejudicing them. This despite the fact that I welcomed them all to look at the lessons I was teaching, to see that I was simply teaching sound doctrinal foundation systematically through Romans and not anything about "œreformed doctrine" "œpresbyterianism" or, as they had been teaching, "œ10 ways to be a better Chrstn" (the companion series to "œ10 Ways to Show You are Holy" "œ5 Steps to Being Chrstn With Your Money" "œWitnessing in 3 Easy Steps" and the ever popular "œSupporting Your Local New Testament Chrch." Since there was no good ch there for these women to attend yet, these mssnrs had told them that they were an extension of their chrchs back home).

Second, there is the difficulty of getting people to come here at all. The vast majority of people working here women. Being a woman myself, I don't wish to minimize what we can do: we are talking about a country that has a huge gender discrepancy so that nearly 70% of the nation is women. Many women of this country are anxious to hook up with a rich white man who can rescue them, and think nothing of shamelessly throwing themselves at men, or pretending to be enraptured with everything they say in order to get that green card: and yet for a white man to be seen with a woman is to invite the hatred and suspicious of everyone around you, since it implies an insult to the men of the country. They feel the woman is saying she can't be satisfied with the men of her own nation and has to look to white men to care for her. Being married won't save you, either, because in their culture it is absolutely expected that a man take mistresses. The wife is only for producing offspring, and her job is to be a good mother and to cook well. For intellectual equality, for fun and games and for relaxation the men look to their mistresses. In this environment there is a lot of work for a godly woman that the best educated and most well-intentioned man of God is unable to do or can only undertake with the utmost caution. But, there are also many things the women cannot do--starting and leading a church being chief among them. So then why are there so few men here? 

Well, in non-reformed circles the stock answer I most frequently hear is that since this is a closed country, and since the man would be unable to engage in "œproper" activities such as passing out tracts in the street and going door-to-door witnessing, that therefore it would be a "waste" to send him. It's ok for the women, they aren't worth much anyway, but it's just a waste of manpower that could be better used elsewhere. Many of them will not allow their mssnry to have another job while on the field, which is absolutely necessary here or else you cannot stay. Among reformed circles, the answer I meet most commonly, usually delivered in a slightly superior tone as an instruction to an ignorant, is that we want the indigenous people to have and run their own fellowships--we don´t want to build foreign run empires. This is also my view--but how the local people are going to be reached in the first place, and, once they are, who is going to model for their young men the work and life of an elder, and then who is going to help those who believe they are called to the ministry get the training, teaching and guidance they need is a question that has to be addressed. There are a few reformed works by the OPC and the PCA, but not near enough to cover the need. And, you have to remember that many of the people we are talking about are so poor, or so discriminated against by the gov that they can´t even finish high school, let alone get the education they need to qualify for entrance most reformed seminaries. Even those who could get the educational background needed would have great difficulty even getting to the place where the seminary might be. In this country people are not free to simply pick up and move to another city as they like, even if they could afford it. They would need to get their residence card transferred from the place they were born to the place they wish to go, and, once there, they would have to pay much higher prices for housing and be last on the list to get jobs then those who were born in that city (or then they themselves would enjoy in their home city or town). And, just because a husband is given permission to move to another city is no guarantee that his wife will. In fact, if the couple is moving from a smaller town or countryside to a larger town or city, she may have more difficulty then others, since the gov is anxious to ensure that the husband will return to his home town and not be a permanent burden on the already overcrowded cities. 


I hope that this hasn´t been too long, and a few have had a chance to look at it. Perhaps it will encourage some to consider coming overseas to closed countries. The work is very difficult--that is certainly true. It is not easy to work full time, and still have time to do the things you came here to do. There is constant uncertainty about the gov and even about your job. But maybe some will consider it.


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## kceaster (Mar 31, 2005)

*StrangerPilgrim...*

All I can say is, wow! I knew it was bad, but the picture you just painted is so dark. We really don't know what we have in a free country.

It sounds like these type of works will take more than a generation to get off the ground, don't you think? I mean, if men really can't provide the type of leadership, it's going to take a son who's well grounded, having another son who's well grounded. And let's face it, there's probably not a missionary board, to include the OPC or PCA who's willing to be that patient.

It also confirms my fear that modern missions are mostly about making converts, not disciples. As if they can pop these people into a spiritual microwave for two minutes and they come out a solid Christian.

Thank you so much for sharing this with us. I will pray for you as often as I think of you.

In Christ,

KC


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## Ken S. (May 26, 2005)

don't really understand what situation is Mathew describing, but could sense that it's somthing upset. Purhaps another example of the Word and Truth being oppressed by the congregation.


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## Pergamum (Nov 16, 2005)

*calvinisit missionaries*

Hey all:

I am new to the board (but I have "lurked" for a long time)....

I am a Reformed Baptist missionary. I too have rubbed elbows with many missionaries who, unfortunately, have more heart than head when it comes to doctrine.

I tell myself that I am not trying to win someone over to Calvin, but to Christ. The Gospel does not need to have TULIP in it (though, by neccessity, these essential truths MUST come out)....(in the end, of course, we do not "win" anybody anyway...of course). There is room for a basic evangelical "ecumenism" (I use this word with caution); most missionary problems are, after all, not doctrinal, but personal. I was rejected by 3 mission boards because I did not believe in a pretributional premillennial rapture ( I could barely say it, let alone adhere to it). 

My present position allows me to work with EV Free church members, one Amish fellow and a presbyterian (I am a baptist). The Amish fellow doesn't know much about Calvin, but he loves the brethren. Me and the Presbyterian fellow are very very dear friends. 



Another trend I notice that is very alarming is "spiritual warfare". 

I thought this referred to Ephesians 6. But, in the modern missions community, too many times, it refers to some extra-Biblical prayer warfare with demons, territorial spirits, even the interviewing of demon-possessed peoples. People go on prayer walks to claim territories. They dispose of all native charms and amulets (thinking that these, inherently, possess some powers because they were used as shamamic fetishes). 

There are some animistic, superstitious missionaries out there it seems. They fear the shaman's curseand stay away from his "bag of goodies", too. Ihave heard countless related stories of even levitation and magic being used.

Am I sinning by thinking that these reports are lies? I cannot believe them.

Any feedback, advice or insights into this subject are appreciated.


Trevor


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## Contra_Mundum (Nov 17, 2005)

The basic problems of people are not external things like demons ("possession" is still "from without") but the inward matters of personal sin and rebellion against God. The Word and the Spirit of God are all that is necessary to take territory away from the devil. When missionaries or whomever concentrate on "powers" and "influences" they are teaching people (or affirming) that they are subject to "forces" beyond their control, or worse--that these "powers" are subject to various forms of ritual or formulaic manipulation. Aaaand, that success in dealing with spiritual problems (the demons!) is a matter of "having enough faith." Nonsense. Awful nonsense. Enslaving nonsense.

Missionaries like John Paton didn't _disbelieve_ in a real working of Satan (or his minions) in the cannibal tribes of the South Pacific. But neither did he ever pay them any attention. Such (whenever they might have been present--and how would he know?) were the affair of God and the angels. Paton had to do with the tribesmen--their spears and arrows, and their monstrous superstitions, terrors, and slavery to sin.

Even if you are willing to grant that palpable manifestations of "evil" are still present in the world today, how does human power compare? No how.

It was God's Word (either directly from him, or mediated through his apostolic emmisaries) that put the demons to flight. Just so, if one were to find a real demon today, he would not submit to his "I order you in Jesus Name...", "I bind you, spirit of stealing-office-supplies!" What a joke. I'd say to him: "*Stop talking to demons,* (if you really are). Start praying, believing in the power of God and the ordinary means of grace, and preaching _God's Word_ to people who God is going to give ears to hear his effectual call, mediated through you, his minister."

[Edited on 11-17-2005 by Contra_Mundum]


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## Tirian (Nov 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by webmaster_
> The missionary this morning was absolutely terrible. I understand that there is somewhat of language barrier.
> 
> If that is the kind of missionary we are sending out to "preach" then we ought to rethink, heartily, who we are supporting. We need solid Reformed men in the field who know how to responsibly handle the Word of God.




On top of this - I've often wondered about the pratice of sending men out into foreign places now where the Word has already been preached. When we used to have these mission weeks at our church when I was younger I always felt the pressure of the church to do a "tour of duty" somewhere even though the church had already been planted in a place.

Wouldn't it be better to train up and equip the men of those countries whom the Lord has drawn to Himself to reach out to their fellow countrymen? Surely they might be more effective in reaching out, being pastoral, ruling and teaching etc - being totally conversant with local custom/language etc.

Matthew


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## Pergamum (Nov 17, 2005)

Amen to the last two posts!!!

Amen to brother. Buchanan! Prayer and the Word are our weapons, not equally hocusy-pocusy magic like the animists. We want to vanquish animism, not engage in it.

Amen to brother. Glover! Over 90% of all Christian workers work in the already-reached areas. Praise God for these workers.....but there are cities of 100,000 in central asia that possess 1 or 2 believers. There are still hundreds of languages that have no written language, let alone even a single verse of NT truth.

Indonesia is full of needs. If you know anyone in your church you is interested, email me. I will try to recruit them to go to where there are still 127 unreached people groups. I am dull of intellect and have many sins in my past, and God has called me to such a place. Surely you know a few young reformed men who have been nurtured in Christian love that can be shown the needs (by which showing, God may call them).


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