# All are born Atheist? or Agnostic



## ReformedChristian (Jul 11, 2010)

I recently had a conversation with an Atheist the other day who made the assertion that all of us are born Atheist and Agnostic and that to believe in God means you were taught it in church and force to believe it. 

What I find interesting is that Atheism asserts absolute statements when these according to their worldview are subjective, let the atheist also fail to take into account that they raise their children in atheism and secularism teaching them that God does not exist but berating parents who instill bibical vaule into their children.

Atheist say why not let children make up their own mind that God does not exist. While I can say the same to the atheist why not allow the child to make up their mind that he does? this is a self contradition.


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## Pergamum (Jul 11, 2010)

Romans 1 doesn't say that we are ignorant but that we suppress the truth in unrighteousness. Therefore, we are born sinful theists who do not want to bow to God and, instead, pretend atheism is not itself a faith-system, or else believe in false religions that quench the hunger inside for God without really glorifying him as God (i.e. using religion as a vaccination against the Gospel to ease one's conscience and quiet that ache inside).


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## Semper Fidelis (Jul 11, 2010)

Perg is right. I would use the term "self-worshipping rebellious theists" perhaps.

There is certainly no empirical evidence that all men are born atheistic or agnostic. His is a statement of faith.


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## Andres (Jul 11, 2010)

Semper Fidelis said:


> Perg is right. I would use the term "self-worshipping rebellious theists" perhaps.
> 
> There is certainly no empirical evidence that all men are born atheistic or agnostic. His is a statement of faith.


 
I would use the term "God-hater". We are all born God-haters. Some men's hatred for God manifests itself in their denying His very existence, hence athiests. I personally believe there are no true athiests. As Perg stated, Romans 1 seems to put forth this argument.


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## JennyG (Jul 11, 2010)

I can't remember where I read about it, but I'm quite certain at least one survey within the last few years showed the complete opposite - ie children left to themselves assume the existence of God, not the other way round. It's obvious after all to the unbiassed mind - Paley had it right all along, however loudly Dawkins keeps saying "we know now that paley was utterly wrong.."
He wishes!!
We have to keep spreading the fact that contrary to the atheist confidence trick, atheism does NOT represent neutrality, or the mere absence of theism!


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## JBaldwin (Jul 11, 2010)

Chris, I have an on-going argument with an atheist acquaintance who insists that he doesn't have a religion. My husband and I have another friend, a world-reknown scientist in his field, who can't seem to stop arguing about atheism. Both of these men have a vendetta against God that goes back to some incident from their life. 

My thought is that some of the most verbally abusive atheists are closer to the kingdom than those who claim to be atheist and don't even argue much about it. Rather than even discuss the religion aspect, I spent a lot of time in sharing my faith through "what-if" sceneros which are nothing more than my own testimony of what God has done in my life but taking my name off of it. I pray a lot for these folks. Most of them are really hurting and only by the grace of God will they turn to Him.


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## jwithnell (Jul 11, 2010)

You are either born inside the covenant or outside the covenant. Then there are the those like me who are adopted into the covenant.


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## jambo (Jul 11, 2010)

An atheist is a sinner and an agnostic is a sinner. We are born with the natural bias toward sin and rebellion. That is our life unless the Lord miraculously intervenes and transforms the sinner into his child. Being a sinner has many manifestations. For some it is atheism, for others it is agnosticism, whilst for others it is being religious of whatever shape. There are other manifestations too many to mention.

Joyce's view about the most verbally abusive being closer to the kingdom I think is quite right. They are usually abusive and hostile because something about the gospel touches a raw nerve. The lethargic and indifferent really don't care.


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## Zenas (Jul 11, 2010)

ReformedChristian said:


> I recently had a conversation with an Atheist the other day who made the assertion that all of us are born Atheist and Agnostic and that to believe in God means you were taught it in church and force to believe it.
> 
> What I find interesting is that Atheism asserts absolute statements when these according to their worldview are subjective, let the atheist also fail to take into account that they raise their children in atheism and secularism teaching them that God does not exist but berating parents who instill bibical vaule into their children.
> 
> Atheist say why not let children make up their own mind that God does not exist. While I can say the same to the atheist why not allow the child to make up their mind that he does? this is a self contradition.


 
He backed himself into the "What came first, chickens or eggs?" corner. If we're all born atheists, where did the notion of God come from? Assuming his assertion is true, that you only conclude theism based on it being taught, then there should only be atheists as no one would have ever been around to teach the first theist to be a theist. They would have remained an atheist. Perhaps your conversant ought to reconsider his position. 

Regarding your other points, it's pretty easy to point out the logical fallacies of atheism and subjectivism. They function under the myth that neutrality exists and that their position is the neutral one. They also function under the presumed objective truth that there are no objective truths. Let's unpack that.

Remaining neutral is taking no position. If one is neutral, they've taken a position contrary to all other positive claims. The atheist has said all theists, Christian or otherwise, are wrong. The agnostic has done similarly, though not to the extent of the atheist, as they argue all theists are wrong because they claim to know with certainty. These positions are hardly neutral. They're simply the opposite position of theism. Sorry Mr. Atheist, you don't get to make the rules. 

Furthermore, subjectivism is demonstratively false. Its proponents assert that there is no objective truth, which is, in itself, a presumed objective statement. Obviously then, there is at least one objective truth, that there is no objective truth. That won't work though, because the one objective truth asserts that there are no objective truths. Typically the proponent will then retreat and assert that there is only one objective truth, namely that "there is only one objective truth, and all others are subjective truths." That then posits two objective truths, that there is only one objective truth (that there is only one objective truth) and also another objective truth (all other truths are subjective). This continues on into infinity and illustrates the absurdity of the position. They use objective truth to define subjectivism. 

Knuckles, meet ground. Now drag. 

My very good friend is a fairly confused fellow. I care about him very much and so I have these types of conversations with him from time to time. He put forth a novel argument for subjectivism that was also patently false, but novel nontheless. 

He posited that a majority of people agreed to subjectively assent to objective truth in order to create objective truth. In other words, subjective truth, collectively, begat objective truth. This again assumes objective truth in order to convey forth the proposition, i.e. that a collective of objective truths will necessarily begat an objective truth via mutual assent. We then moved on to other topics.


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## Theoretical (Jul 12, 2010)

JBaldwin said:


> Chris, I have an on-going argument with an atheist acquaintance who insists that he doesn't have a religion. My husband and I have another friend, a world-reknown scientist in his field, who can't seem to stop arguing about atheism. Both of these men have a vendetta against God that goes back to some incident from their life.
> 
> My thought is that some of the most verbally abusive atheists are closer to the kingdom than those who claim to be atheist and don't even argue much about it. Rather than even discuss the religion aspect, I spent a lot of time in sharing my faith through "what-if" sceneros which are nothing more than my own testimony of what God has done in my life but taking my name off of it. I pray a lot for these folks. Most of them are really hurting and only by the grace of God will they turn to Him.


 


jambo said:


> An atheist is a sinner and an agnostic is a sinner. We are born with the natural bias toward sin and rebellion. That is our life unless the Lord miraculously intervenes and transforms the sinner into his child. Being a sinner has many manifestations. For some it is atheism, for others it is agnosticism, whilst for others it is being religious of whatever shape. There are other manifestations too many to mention.
> 
> Joyce's view about the most verbally abusive being closer to the kingdom I think is quite right. They are usually abusive and hostile because something about the gospel touches a raw nerve. The lethargic and indifferent really don't care.





Aggressive skeptics aren't the easiest to befriend or get to listen to you, but I really would agree they're much closer to the kingdom than the indifferent or many of the "Christian" folk out there who live just like the world.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Jul 12, 2010)

I believe Scripture shows that infants may be born regenerated (i.e., are regenerated in the womb), such as Jeremiah, John the Baptist, and others. In this post some of Calvin's thoughts on this are shown, and other evidences that this is true.

This does not mean they were not still sinners, for even we who are regenerated adults sin — Simul iustus et peccator — but we have the Holy Spirit indwelling us, and are partakers of the divine nature.

This is why, in obedience to God's command, we give infants the seal and sign of the covenant; we also have this promise:

And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. (Deut 30:6)​


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## jwright82 (Jul 12, 2010)

One of the many embarrassments for Atheism is its claim that it is the only truly rational view outhere. By that they mean that if you are truly rational than at the end of the day you will be an Atheist and yet like 80% of the worlds population beleives in a higher being. So what is 80% of the world dumb, irrational, or stupid? Also in a book I have by an Atheist, I can't remember the name and author but I will post it, he actually quotes polls that suggest that Atheism is a much larger group of people than we thought, they are just too afraid to come out of the unbeleiving closet so to speak. But on closer analysis he simply twisted the meaning of the polls to be in his favor. For instance he interpreted all people who said that they were a Secularist as being Atheist, but there are plenty of Christian Secularist's outhere.


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