# Wheaton V.S Baylor: Which College Do you Recommend?



## DyeLi

By the grace of our Lord, I am admitted by both colleges. After a great deal of time of consulting, reading reviews, searching on forums and, even, reading some books of the professors from both colleges' philosohpy departments, I am still unable to make a final decision. I have to admit I am inclined to choose Wheaton, but as an foreigner who has very few men to consult directly in this case of choosing a Christian college, I feel obliged to ask you guys on this matter.

I want to major in philosophy at college, and become a college professor in China if all goes well.

Pros of Baylor:

1. I am granted a 15k annual scholarship by Baylor, which will make it 9k cheaper than Wheaton every year.

2. I am admitted by its Honors Program, which also means I will probably have the privillege to live in the Honors Residential College if I submit my application.

3. There are many prestigious (at least prolific) professors in Baylor's philosophy department. C. Stephen Evans, Francis Beckwith and Jonathan Kvanvig are good examples.

4.There is an RUF at Baylor, and a PCA church(Redeemer Presbyterian Church) in town.


Pros of Wheaton:

1. My Chinese background can exempt me from the foreign language requirement, so if I pass a few AP science exams(easy for a Chinese) and devote one or two summer to study, I will graduate early and save 45k.

2. Wheaton is ranked 15th by USNEWS Best Undergraduate Teaching. It means Wheaton "has a strong commitment to teaching undergraduates instead of graduate-level research". 

3. Wheaton is arguably conservative theologically, but unarguably much more conservative than Baylor is. 

4. This one is essentially the combination of No.2 and 3. Professors become mentors in such a place, because it's not merely the knowledge they can teach me, but also their sharing of faith, and their deeds as godly men. I know this isn't a proper place to talk about Theology, but I just want to use it as an example:

Today I listened a story of Mark Talbot, a professor at Wheaton's philosophy department, and was deeply moved by it. He told about how he realized his serious illness was a blessing from God, and how in dealing with it he gave up open theism and submitted to Compatibilism, which means our acts are both the results of our free will and the predestination of God. It is the understanding of this point enables a true faith of “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.”

5. Chapels are very good at first glance. Philip Ryken the president and Stephen Kellough the senior pastor are Presbyterians, and Tullian Tchividjian also came to speak at Wheaton recently. The Chapel at Baylor, however, is very bad in my opinion after my watching a few video recordings. People there generally spent 20 out of 25 minutes in singing popular worship music in Chapel services.

6. There are also many good churches at Wheaton.




I believe you can clearly see that I am very biased. I do not deny it. However, the problem of how good is the "Christian atmosphere" is a very serious issue. It is always bad to decide only according to feelings. Wheaton looks very good. The Lordship of Christ is thoroughly proclaimed in its websites, its videos, even its application forms, but how convincing are these things as evidences for one to know the spiritual condition of its faculty and students? I read many Wheaton student's reviews about their college, and I just didn't see how faith plays an important role in their lives. Feminism in its faculty is also being criticized by people. Anyway, I just don't want to go there and be disillusioned. Can RUF and the Redeemer Presbyterian Church make up what Baylor lacks in terms of faith? I don't know. That's why I need your advice.

Last point. I assume that both colleges can provide the same level of education, considering I am admitted by Baylor's honors program. If you think otherwise, please speak out.


----------



## Tripel

I'd recommend Wheaton, and yes, I'm biased. I've had many friends and family members attend there and I have visited numerous times. 

You can get a very good education at both schools, so I wouldn't dwell on that point too much.

I think it's good you are considering things like chapel, which is indeed very good at Wheaton. And Philip Ryken is wonderful. 

I don't know anything about the PCA church near Baylor, but I (as a member of the PCA) would love to attend College Church in Wheaton. It is a great church, and I see that as a major strength in Wheaton's favor.


----------



## Jack K

By reputation here in America, I agree with you that Wheaton probably has the stronger "Christian atmosphere" of the two. Phil Ryken's reputation is excellent, and Wheaton is still very much a true Christian college, guided by Christian ideals. Baylor is less so.

Baylor is also more Baptist and very much a Texas school. The believers you'll find at Wheaton will include more non-Baptists and people who come from many different places.

But here's the main thing you need to realize: Any large "Christian" college in America will still have many students attending who don't act Christian at all much of the time. Any of the large Christian colleges here will often seem to not have a Christian atmosphere at all. To thrive spiritually at either of these schools, you will have to seek out good fellowship with those who are true Christians. It won't be automatic, and at times it may be frustrating.

If you're the sort of true believer who deeply desires to serve Christ and to live among fellow believers, I'm confident you'll be able to find that kind of fellowship at either school. But don't be surprised if you have to hunt for it a bit, even at Wheaton. It won't be obvious everywhere. Just be prepared for that.


----------



## toddpedlar

I would go to Wheaton hands down, but mostly because with Baylor you're dealing with 15000 (12000 undergrad, 3000 grad) students, while at Wheaton the student body is under 3000 (2400 undergrad, 600 grad). Hence, you'll be dealing with 600 fellow students in your entering class as opposed to 3000 at Baylor. This has significant impact on the day-to-day feel of the campus. The faculty at Wheaton really are first rate (not to say anything negative about Baylor) and you'll really find the smaller size advantageous (in my opinion).


----------



## py3ak

It sounds like if you can finish early at Wheaton you save $9k over what you would spend at Baylor. But if you can't finish early, you'll save a good amount by going to Baylor. How confident are you about finishing early, and how easily can you afford to be wrong?


----------



## DMcFadden

Wheaton 75%; Baylor 25% (and only because of the scholarship)

in my opinion - Wheaton all the way


----------



## py3ak

DMcFadden said:


> Baylor 25% (and only because of the scholarship)



You forgot the location advantage. TX vs. IL is not hard!


----------



## Romans922

Wheaton seems better academically. Will be better for long-run if you stay in the states getting into graduate program and a job. There's an OPC church in Wheaton: Bethel Presbyterian Church They meet morning and evening on the Lord's Day!


----------



## Bethel

py3ak said:


> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Baylor 25% (and only because of the scholarship)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You forgot the location advantage. TX vs. IL is not hard!
Click to expand...


I too think Texas would win in the location debate. The high today is 70 degrees. Even when it's "colder", we can still play outdoor tennis year-round. There's never any snow to shovel or drive through; we don't even have winter coats. Another plus is that the traffic in Waco is non-existent (compared to other 'large' cities). Sure, it's hot in the summer, but that's why you get a swimming pool. I see pictures of IL in the winter time--no, thank you.

My husband and I are not Baylor graduates, but we've lived in Waco for almost 20 years. We don't plan to send our boys to BU, nor do we attend Redeemer (and that's not because we are Baptist).


----------



## Marrow Man

College Church is right across the street from Wheaton. I think Kent Hughes has retired now, but I'm guessing it is still Calvinistic and you will be fed well with the word.

Wheaton seems like the better place, in my opinion. But follow the advice above about considering finances. Avoid debt if at all possible. You don't want that hampering your future plans.


----------



## SolaScriptura

I know a couple professors at Wheaton. Wheaton is a great school. I'd go to Wheaton if I could.


----------



## Scott1

We cannot know God's purposes for you in this choice.

God does direct through circumstances- ask God to keep you open to that.

Visit both schools, talk to students and faculty, go to church both places.


> Proverbs 16:9
> 
> 9A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.


----------



## Laura

I went to Baylor for a couple of years and was in one of the honors programs. I know next to nothing about Wheaton. 

You are right about Baylor chapel. Not only is it uniformly terrible, but you will be asked to leave by the monitors (and thus be counted absent) if you try discreetly doing homework or something more worthwhile during the "service." The overall student atmosphere at Baylor is that of a self-satisfied, popular evangelical sort of Christianity with little time for serious reflection on the basics of the faith. The PCA was fine, but when I was there was dominated, and I do mean dominated by people just like me: former Southern Baptists new to Calvinism, excited about it, but young, mostly immature, new to Reformed theology with all that that usually entails, and all too ready to nurture a minority mentality amidst the unthinking Baptist masses. I did learn a lot from the RUF Bible studies and some of the programs the PCA had going on then, it's just that the social environment was sort of unhealthy for the reasons mentioned above. 

On the plus side, if you do end up needing to go to Baylor for the lower tuition or for some other reason:
- Texas is wonderful.
- There are people at Baylor like the ones you name who would undoubtedly be worthwhile to study under, though I didn't have much experience in the philosophy department. 
- David Lyle Jeffrey, though he _may_ be nearing retirement now, is a professor of literature with a much more historically and theologically grounded understanding of Christianity than you will find in many of the faculty. He would understand entirely your desire to take classes/study under serious Christian professors (of which there are a few). As a bonus, he speaks Mandarin and is a guest professor at two universities in Beijing. When I was there he had taken a Chinese professor under his wing while she studied for her masters at Baylor and prepared to go back to China to teach, much as you seem to plan to do. I wouldn't think that was the first or last time he did such a thing. He was very generous with his time and patience with me, and you simply must seek him out if you end up at Baylor. Email him now, even, and ask him any specific questions you may have. Best wishes for your decision-making.


----------



## Edward

Wheaton is a Christian college. Baylor is a major university that competes with secular private universities and major state universities. In a church context, the Wheaton degree will probably be worth more. In the secular realm, Baylor. 

Wheaton will have long miserably cold winters, Baylor will have long miserably hot summers. 

If you want to be in a cocoon, Wheaton, hands down. If you want a major university experience, Baylor. Which then begs the question, if Baylor, why not a secular university? 

Disclosure: one of my ancestors was a president of Baylor before it went moderate.


----------



## interalia

Wheaton.


----------



## DyeLi

I didn't anticipate that there would be so many responses. Thanks be to the Lord for His providence, and for the love you've shown.

After reading your responses, I think that I will probably go to Wheaton. It seems what on Baylor's side are only its temperature and tuition. I am not sure about academics, however, as Wheaton get a smaller size, brilliant faculty, and Baylor world-class publishers, plus a few very looking-good professors Laura have mentioned.

The place I live in is only a bit warmer than Chicago in winter, so I suppose I can handle it. Even if I can't, I will just treat it as something the Lord uses to remind me of always waging war to flesh, which is a very important class to learn as I've made the decision to go back to China. Even what we eat here isn't safe: Restaurant's widely using of drainage oil, famous companies' prodcuation of poisoned milk, melamine in food, etc. Furthermore, you may heard of the "PM 2.5" issue happened in Beijing, which is a common phenomenon country-wide. The environmental problems are so applaling that every time I go outside I have to wear a mask.

As for the money issue, I've talked with my parents several times. They said even if I cannot graduate early at Wheaton, they were still able to support me all four years without making big sacrifices for them financially.

Your experience are very precious for me to make the final decision. Without the opportunity to visit the campus physically, I mainly concerned about how "Christian" was Wheaton, especially after seeing some attacks of its faculty's standing on feminism and evolution. However, based on your responses, I draw the conclusion that Wheaton is still very faithful to its christian beliefs and is truly an excellent place for a young christian to both grow in faith and knowledge. 

I apologize for my inability to respond you guys in time because of living in different time zones. Here I want to quote some posts and give them my thanks and comments. However, that doesn't mean only these are helpful to me. All of your responses, however short, are of great help to me, because I know it's only by the Lord's merciful guidance can I find this forum. Before this post I've done numerous researches at PB, most of them are about schools and some of them about theology and philosophy. I am convinced by the arguments posted here at PB to give you credit.






Jack K said:


> If you're the sort of true believer who deeply desires to serve Christ and to live among fellow believers, I'm confident you'll be able to find that kind of fellowship at either school. But don't be surprised if you have to hunt for it a bit, even at Wheaton. It won't be obvious everywhere. Just be prepared for that.



Thanks very much for this advice. I understand it's very important for me to be prepared for meeting many pretending-Christians even at Wheaton. However, as long as there is a good fellowship, it will be enough. I currently have a small online reformed fellowship, and there are only one or two guys I often speak with, but I do get huge blessings from God in participating this fellowship.




toddpedlar said:


> This has significant impact on the day-to-day feel of the campus. The faculty at Wheaton really are first rate (not to say anything negative about Baylor) and you'll really find the smaller size advantageous (in my opinion).


Yes, I also think if Wheaton is academically better than baylor, it is because of Wheaton has a much smaller size. I also think it is my cup of tea to go to a small places where you can find many people in common, and Wheaton is perfect in regard of this matter. I do, however, worry about the "Wheaton Bubble" will make me unable to handle the real world once I graduate. But I think this "flaw" will be compensate once I go to a big secular graduate school.



Romans922 said:


> Wheaton seems better academically. Will be better for long-run if you stay in the states getting into graduate program and a job. There's an OPC church in Wheaton: Bethel Presbyterian Church They meet morning and evening on the Lord's Day!



Thanks! Very helpful. I do want to get into graduate program. Another important reason for choosing Wheaton.



Scott1 said:


> We cannot know God's purposes for you in this choice.
> 
> God does direct through circumstances- ask God to keep you open to that.
> 
> Visit both schools, talk to students and faculty, go to church both places.
> 
> 
> 
> Proverbs 16:9
> 
> 9A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
Click to expand...


Truly! However, this is a very interesting thing to ponder about. Do you think what happens now is the expression of God's purposes and directions for me? A complete foreign believer like me will not generally find such a place. And it did take a while for me to get into this forum, as my knowledge, however little, of reformed theology grows. Actually I do think you guys are more qualified to answer this question than most of the people I know. Either they know nothing about Wheaton, or they know nothing about Christianity. 





Laura said:


> I went to Baylor for a couple of years and was in one of the honors programs. I know next to nothing about Wheaton.
> 
> You are right about Baylor chapel. Not only is it uniformly terrible, but you will be asked to leave by the monitors (and thus be counted absent) if you try discreetly doing homework or something more worthwhile during the "service." The overall student atmosphere at Baylor is that of a self-satisfied, popular evangelical sort of Christianity with little time for serious reflection on the basics of the faith. The PCA was fine, but when I was there was dominated, and I do mean dominated by people just like me: former Southern Baptists new to Calvinism, excited about it, but young, mostly immature, new to Reformed theology with all that that usually entails, and all too ready to nurture a minority mentality amidst the unthinking Baptist masses. I did learn a lot from the RUF Bible studies and some of the programs the PCA had going on then, it's just that the social environment was sort of unhealthy for the reasons mentioned above.
> 
> On the plus side, if you do end up needing to go to Baylor for the lower tuition or for some other reason:
> - Texas is wonderful.
> - There are people at Baylor like the ones you name who would undoubtedly be worthwhile to study under, though I didn't have much experience in the philosophy department.
> - David Lyle Jeffrey, though he _may_ be nearing retirement now, is a professor of literature with a much more historically and theologically grounded understanding of Christianity than you will find in many of the faculty. He would understand entirely your desire to take classes/study under serious Christian professors (of which there are a few). As a bonus, he speaks Mandarin and is a guest professor at two universities in Beijing. When I was there he had taken a Chinese professor under his wing while she studied for her masters at Baylor and prepared to go back to China to teach, much as you seem to plan to do. I wouldn't think that was the first or last time he did such a thing. He was very generous with his time and patience with me, and you simply must seek him out if you end up at Baylor. Email him now, even, and ask him any specific questions you may have. Best wishes for your decision-making.



I can't appreciate more for your insight. I will send email to David Lyle Jeffrey and ask my problems very soon. In fact, I've already sent an email to another serious reformed Christian at BU, Thomas S. Kidd, whom is known by me when reading this article at Gospel Coalition.

I want to quote his words, which make a very important case for me to seriously think the possibility of going to Baylor. "The great advantage of a place like Baylor is that it is a Christian research university, with world-class publishing scholars across the disciplines—you would not find this at most other Christian colleges.I suspect that you would find some faculty members who share your specific theological convictions, others not as much—but remember that in philosophy and history, the topics are generally not focused on issues such as the authority of Scripture. Best wishes on your search!"
Baylor, no matter how liberal in its faculty and its student body, does have a few serious Christian professors you've mentioned, plus the "world-class publishing scholars" it can provide to its students. The words of Jesus,"for whoever is not against us is for us "
came into mind, when I thought about how important it was if the professors at BU's philosophy department are all liberals. I've even read a little of one book of Kvanvig, where this conviction is confirmed when I saw how brilliantly he dealt with the problem of the existence of evil. That's also the reason why I want to find out how much can the Redeemer Church and the RUF can compensate. However, I do not pretend I've interpreted it rightly, else I wouldn't be here seeking help.

I have to admit that although I fully appreciate BU's faculty, the problems of its students as you've described and its faculty's attention to undergraduate students are still two big main disadvantages for me to choose Baylor. However, based on your personal experience, there may still be many chances to find a caring professor at such a big university.





Edward said:


> Wheaton is a Christian college. Baylor is a major university that competes with secular private universities and major state universities. In a church context, the Wheaton degree will probably be worth more. In the secular realm, Baylor.
> 
> Wheaton will have long miserably cold winters, Baylor will have long miserably hot summers.
> 
> If you want to be in a cocoon, Wheaton, hands down. If you want a major university experience, Baylor. Which then begs the question, if Baylor, why not a secular university?
> 
> Disclosure: one of my ancestors was a president of Baylor before it went moderate.




Thank you very much for your thoughts. In fact, my personal struggles are recently on this very problem: Should I serve the Church directly, or indirectly? I choose the latter for now, as I've talked extensively with people in my fellowship. However, since I've planned to go to graduate school, which I will probably go to a secular one, the practical effect of this undergraduate degree may not be that important.

The "why not a secular university" question is also a truly good one. I've thought about it, and here is my answer:

First, it's the limitations due to my personal experience made me not able to think sufficiently on this matter. I just became a Christian 1 year before, and immediately after my conversion I had decided to learn theology, a choice latter was abandoned after my carefully examining my presuppositions after reading a book of huge impact on me, the Way of The Modern World. I made my college list mainly according to how many people the college has on its BTS/religion and philosophy departments(don't laugh at me). Only later to find how ridiculous it is. The possibility of going to a secular college struck my mind just two or three months ago, which I think isn't sufficient for me to make a well-reasoned choice, especially if I want to choose philosophy as my major.

Second, I will just quote a few words from Robert Roberts, a professor at Baylor University's philosophy department: 


"At Baylor the philosophy courses tend to be oriented by a Christian outlook on life, and thus on those perennial questions that I mentioned at the beginning. People do not become wise by being torn among outlooks and endlessly undecided as to what they think, nor is wisdom best fostered by being nurtured intellectually in a "community" that is really no community, but instead a battlefield of intellectual factions. Whereas at a secular school the orientations of the various professors will tend to be either miscellaneous or perhaps consistently naturalistic, the orientation of the Baylor professors is theistic and Christian.

So if wisdom is the far-away aim of philosophy, Christian wisdom is the far-away aim of Baylor philosophy. It is a wisdom in which we understand ourselves as creatures of God as he is understood in the broad, deep tradition of Christian orthodoxy that stretches from the time of the prophets of Israel, through the teaching of Jesus and the apostles, through the early Church Fathers and the great thinkers of the Middle Ages, to Christian thinkers of the Modern period and down the present day. And the Baylor philosophers may add a few small new twists of our own to this noble inheritance. Perhaps another reason for studying philosophy at Baylor is the joy of participating in this exciting and ongoing venture."



These words also make me draw the conclusion that Baylor is a very good "secular" college for a Christian to attend. However, I cannot say I've thought enough on this matter, especially when learning that "Analytic philosophy" is not that tainted by humanism as other liberal arts subjects. I will just stick with my first reason. It's just because I have not got enough time to think about this very complicated matter due to my limitations.


----------



## Laura

Dai Li, it is encouraging to read of how thoroughly you are researching everything. I'm glad you emailed Dr. Kidd and found his response satisfying. It occurs to me that Dr. Jeffrey graduated from Wheaton (albeit a long time ago) and I'm sure as an interested alumnus would be particularly informed about the state of things there, what it might be like for a Chinese student going there, etc. I can't stress enough how helpful he might be to you even if you tell him that you're most likely going to Wheaton. You could write to him of all the concerns you've brought up here and I am sure he will understand exactly where you are coming from and be delighted to give you some guidance.


----------



## Bethel

Dai Li, I know Professor Kidd and have been friends with his family for many years; however, he would not classify himself as a reformed Christian. Although I did hear him say one time that he leans toward Calvinism. He is a brilliant scholar, an extremely gifted writer & speaker, and a wonderful model of a Christian husband & father. He is definitely an asset to BU.


----------



## Jen

I don't really have any thoughts on the relative strengths and weaknesses of the colleges in question (neither my husband nor I did our undergraduate studies at Christian schools), but I did want to offer a comment on the church situation in Wheaton along with some random comments on the city of Wheaton (because personal experience tells me that the experience of living in a city can have an impact on the experience of attending a school), some of which will be more or less relevant to student life.

There is only one confessional Reformed church in Wheaton -- Bethel Orthodox Presbyterian Church. It's a good church. The people are friendly, the pastors (Rev. Dr. Craig Troxel & Rev. John Fikkert) are great. This year's intern (who would be gone by next school year, admittedly) is really great (he's also my husband). It's got a unique vibe to it in that a large portion of the congregation is Dutch -- as in, straight out of several generations of CRC Dutch. (The local CRC went liberal and they came to Bethel.) Bethel runs a bus to and from Wheaton College for the morning service so that students without cars can attend, and there are definitely arrangements in place for the evening service even if the bus itself isn't running. The pastors and staff are also personally involved in ministering to the students (there is a weekly lunch in the cafeteria, for example--incidentally, my husband has good reports on their meals). Bethel is a large church for the OPC (200-250 in the morning), but you can still get to know people pretty easily. Once a month there is a church lunch that involves plenty of midwestern casseroles so that the college students (this year, we probably have about 15 attending our church) and guests can feel free to attend even though they're not able to bring food.

College Church is a large (more than 500 people), Reformed-leaning, evangelical church. It's the most Reformed church in town if you're not attending Bethel, but it's not confessional.

The nearest PCA is in Naperville (20-30 minutes away). There is no URC church, no RPCNA, etc. I actually wouldn't say that Wheaton has a large selection of really good churches. A large selection, yes, but not a large selection of really good. SoCal (erm, Southern California), and especially San Diego county, has a higher concentration of really good churches.

Wheaton itself is a nice city. It drives me nuts sometimes (I grew up in the sticks of Northern California -- metro areas make me itchy if I have to live in them), but it's pretty and very safe. It's almost WASP-ish (White, Anglo-Saxon Protestant) to a fault, though, and there's a lack of good Mexican food (thankfully, there's a large population of Mexicans living in West Chicago, so it can be found not too far away!). There are large pockets of various Eastern European ethnic groups around here, too, which makes me happy because there are some good import markets as a result, though they're not in Wheaton itself. Alas, there are more Czechs than Moravians, though (my dad is Moravian -- there are food differences that happen because Czech food is more German-influenced than Moravian, and I am not a fan of German food). There are some Asian markets around here with imported foods from various countries, too (including a bit of produce, lots of non-perishables (mixes, canned fruits, etc.), desserts, candies, and tea). You would need to find rides since there can easily be drives of about 20 or so minutes involved, but at least you can know that they do exist.


----------



## rexfire

Dealing with your concern about the student body I can give you my experience and granted this is just my experience so take it for what it is worth. I first went to a Christian college and most people there were Christian and didn't do much else. No Intervarsity, RUF etc.. why do you need it if you are already Christian right? I finished my schooling at basically a secular college were they had Intervarsity Fellowship. Some of the people there were alil off theologically but most of us had a true love for Jesus. We all could have been doing alot of other things on a Friday night then worshipping God. That group and experience was really good. It cut out the marginal Christians because they were out partying etc...


----------



## Gforce9

Edward said:


> Wheaton will have long miserably cold winters....



Miserable......? OK, maybe course, cold and even harsh....but miserable........?

This year has been quite moderate, actually. You want miserable? Tuktoyaktuk in the N.W. territory..................


----------



## Edward

Gforce9 said:


> Miserable......? OK, maybe course, cold and even harsh....but miserable........?
> 
> This year has been quite moderate, actually. You want miserable? Tuktoyaktuk in the N.W. territory..



When I wintered in Cleveland, it was nicer than Buffalo or Erie. But it was still miserable.


----------



## J. Dean

There is one thing I'd like to add in caution: don't assume that, because you go to Wheaton, that everything there will be down the line mainstream Christian.

I say this because even among more "conservative" evangelical colleges you'll get professors and students who espouse unscriptural ideas, and recent research I've been doing has been uncovering some real garbage at some universities that are supposed to be full-blown down the line conservative Bible-based evangelical universities. 

Not saying Wheaton is full of liberals (it sounds like it's not based upon the other remarks here, which is good), but don't assume everybody you come into contact with is a bible-believing evangelical. Keep your guard up; it's easy to drop it at a place you think is safe.


----------



## DyeLi

I am sorry that I did not respond in time again due to the arrival of the Chinese New Year. As the holiday is going to end, I am able to put my reply in time, if there will be further posts.




J. Dean said:


> There is one thing I'd like to add in caution: don't assume that, because you go to Wheaton, that everything there will be down the line mainstream Christian.
> 
> I say this because even among more "conservative" evangelical colleges you'll get professors and students who espouse unscriptural ideas, and recent research I've been doing has been uncovering some real garbage at some universities that are supposed to be full-blown down the line conservative Bible-based evangelical universities.
> 
> Not saying Wheaton is full of liberals (it sounds like it's not based upon the other remarks here, which is good), but don't assume everybody you come into contact with is a bible-believing evangelical. Keep your guard up; it's easy to drop it at a place you think is safe.



Yes, that is exactly what I am worrying about. Being challenged intellectually and spiritually by a certain amount of liberals and/or Catholics, etc, is a good thing for growth, but if the college, an LAC, is full of liberal Christian, then it will be worthless for a Christian to go such a place, as he will be over challenged and will not be able to concentrate on academics. As long as the majority of faculty and the student body are bible-believing evangelicals, it will be even better for a Christian college to have different voices, because of the challenges that liberals, Catholics and people from other "special" denominations will surely bring. I am currently in a debate with a Catholic on the issue of Sola Scriptura, a very beneficiary experience for me to grow stronger in the knowledge of theology.

Therefore, the key problem is whether Wheaton does have a majority of bible-believing evangelicals in its faculty, staff, and student body. Based on my searches on the Internet and the responses in this post, I draw the conclusion that it does. Do correct me if I am wrong.




rexfire said:


> Dealing with your concern about the student body I can give you my experience and granted this is just my experience so take it for what it is worth. I first went to a Christian college and most people there were Christian and didn't do much else. No Intervarsity, RUF etc.. why do you need it if you are already Christian right? I finished my schooling at basically a secular college were they had Intervarsity Fellowship. Some of the people there were alil off theologically but most of us had a true love for Jesus. We all could have been doing alot of other things on a Friday night then worshipping God. That group and experience was really good. It cut out the marginal Christians because they were out partying etc...



I made the decision to attend a Christian college by a very impetuous mind. It's the limitations due to my personal experience made me not able to think sufficiently on this matter. I just became a Christian 1 year before, and immediately after my conversion I had decided to learn theology, a choice latter was abandoned after my carefully examining my presuppositions after reading a book of huge impact on me, the Way of The Modern World. I made my college list mainly according to how many people the college has on its BTS/religion and philosophy departments(don't laugh at me). Only later to find how ridiculous it is. The possibility of going to a secular college struck my mind just two or three months ago, which I think isn't sufficient for me to make a well-reasoned choice, especially if I want to choose philosophy as my major.

The above is an excerpt, also my main reason for why not a secular college from my response to Edward, as I explained why I only chose Christian colleges. You can check it in this post if you are interested. I want to explain here, however, of the method I use to remedy my impetuousness.

To avoid an unwanted 'Christian education', one must invest in the writings of its faculty to see how they stand theologically, Chapels messages, its fame in the Christian Community, Reformed Christian in my case, and, if possible, to know the students it attracts. A Christian college filled with liberal professors, staff, and carnal students will not be able to provide an good environment for its students to grow intellectually and spiritually, and I believe your personal experience illustrates my points. That is also exactly why I keep asking can Baylor's RUF and PCA Church make up what it is lack in terms of faith. Based on my searches, though, as I did read some of Wheaton's professors works, listen a lot of its chapel messages, read a lot of Wheaton's students' reviews of their college, and search on the internet to determine its prestige in the reformed commnity, I draw the conclusion that it is still faithful to its evangelical beliefs, and the college has a majority of people (though it may not be the case of its student body) who are serious bible-believing evangelicals. Do correct me if I am wrong.



Jen said:


> I don't really have any thoughts on the relative strengths and weaknesses of the colleges in question (neither my husband nor I did our undergraduate studies at Christian schools), but I did want to offer a comment on the church situation in Wheaton along with some random comments on the city of Wheaton (because personal experience tells me that the experience of living in a city can have an impact on the experience of attending a school), some of which will be more or less relevant to student life.
> 
> There is only one confessional Reformed church in Wheaton -- Bethel Orthodox Presbyterian Church. It's a good church. The people are friendly, the pastors (Rev. Dr. Craig Troxel & Rev. John Fikkert) are great. This year's intern (who would be gone by next school year, admittedly) is really great (he's also my husband). It's got a unique vibe to it in that a large portion of the congregation is Dutch -- as in, straight out of several generations of CRC Dutch. (The local CRC went liberal and they came to Bethel.) Bethel runs a bus to and from Wheaton College for the morning service so that students without cars can attend, and there are definitely arrangements in place for the evening service even if the bus itself isn't running. The pastors and staff are also personally involved in ministering to the students (there is a weekly lunch in the cafeteria, for example--incidentally, my husband has good reports on their meals). Bethel is a large church for the OPC (200-250 in the morning), but you can still get to know people pretty easily. Once a month there is a church lunch that involves plenty of midwestern casseroles so that the college students (this year, we probably have about 15 attending our church) and guests can feel free to attend even though they're not able to bring food.
> 
> College Church is a large (more than 500 people), Reformed-leaning, evangelical church. It's the most Reformed church in town if you're not attending Bethel, but it's not confessional.
> 
> The nearest PCA is in Naperville (20-30 minutes away). There is no URC church, no RPCNA, etc. I actually wouldn't say that Wheaton has a large selection of really good churches. A large selection, yes, but not a large selection of really good. SoCal (erm, Southern California), and especially San Diego county, has a higher concentration of really good churches.
> 
> Wheaton itself is a nice city. It drives me nuts sometimes (I grew up in the sticks of Northern California -- metro areas make me itchy if I have to live in them), but it's pretty and very safe. It's almost WASP-ish (White, Anglo-Saxon Protestant) to a fault, though, and there's a lack of good Mexican food (thankfully, there's a large population of Mexicans living in West Chicago, so it can be found not too far away!). There are large pockets of various Eastern European ethnic groups around here, too, which makes me happy because there are some good import markets as a result, though they're not in Wheaton itself. Alas, there are more Czechs than Moravians, though (my dad is Moravian -- there are food differences that happen because Czech food is more German-influenced than Moravian, and I am not a fan of German food). There are some Asian markets around here with imported foods from various countries, too (including a bit of produce, lots of non-perishables (mixes, canned fruits, etc.), desserts, candies, and tea). You would need to find rides since there can easily be drives of about 20 or so minutes involved, but at least you can know that they do exist.



Thank you so much for this information. I haven't seriously invested my time to find good reformed churches in Wheaton, as I only assumed it must have a lot. I will surely visit your Church if I finally go to Wheaton, and seriously make a choice between the College Church and Bethel Orthodox Presbyterian Church. I am now an independent five-point Calvinist, as I haven't submitted to a specific creed. The reasons are I only became a Christian one year ago, and I haven't been able to find a reformed church in my city. However, I am now a member of a online reformed fellowship, through which I received many blessings from the Lord. 

To be honest, I am leaning towards this confessional Reformed Church, though, as these days the Lord uses the problem of Sola Scriptura let me re-examine the authority of Church and the importance of tradition (under the authority of Bible, of course.)

Anyway, I will start to listen the sermons of Bethel Orthodox Presbyterian Church available on the Internet, and please pray for me on this important choice if you have time.



Bethel said:


> Dai Li, I know Professor Kidd and have been friends with his family for many years; however, he would not classify himself as a reformed Christian. Although I did hear him say one time that he leans toward Calvinism. He is a brilliant scholar, an extremely gifted writer & speaker, and a wonderful model of a Christian husband & father. He is definitely an asset to BU.



Thank you very much for your knowledge! I will seek his assistance on this matter also, considering your comments of him.



Laura said:


> Dai Li, it is encouraging to read of how thoroughly you are researching everything. I'm glad you emailed Dr. Kidd and found his response satisfying. It occurs to me that Dr. Jeffrey graduated from Wheaton (albeit a long time ago) and I'm sure as an interested alumnus would be particularly informed about the state of things there, what it might be like for a Chinese student going there, etc. I can't stress enough how helpful he might be to you even if you tell him that you're most likely going to Wheaton. You could write to him of all the concerns you've brought up here and I am sure he will understand exactly where you are coming from and be delighted to give you some guidance.



I will follow your advice immediately. I am sorry that I spent these days on other matters and didn't do this in time. Thank you again for your helpful suggestions!


----------

