# Is the 12th apostle Matthias or Paul?



## shackleton (Mar 5, 2008)

Who was intended to replace Judas? Matthias whom the other apostles chose or Paul whom Christ chose? 

What of the new Jerusalem? Whose name is it founded upon Paul or Matthias? If it is Paul what are we to make of the fact that Matthias was chosen? After all, he was chosen by casting lots... What of Barnabas? Acts 14:14 "But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul..."

Revelation 21: 9 "Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, 11having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed—13on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. 14_And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."
_ (ESV)


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## Contra_Mundum (Mar 5, 2008)

Acts 1 is very clear--Matthias was chosen by the Holy Spirit to replace Judas. Paul was a special case, but he obviously makes another apostle. So, when we go to Revelation, we don't need to be trying to figure out which name is where. We need to understand what is meant by the fact that the church is built on the 12 Apostles.

I think you are seeking answers to questions for which there are none--none that make sense in exactly the sense you are thinking. You are trying to get a certain "kind" of answer from the text, one the text was never intended to teach. We are all guilty of this sometimes; we are always learning where to draw the line.

We don't need all the "loose ends tied" so that when we look at someplace like Revelation, we are thinking of twelve, individual _names_ on the foundation, and trying to figure out which ones are printed. Its a vision; John saw it in his mind, but it doesn't "exist" someplace outside the Bible anymore, unless in John's mind still and in God's. Maybe he "saw" one side of the city, and sees the names of 3 or 4 apostles, and "figures out" that all of them are down there someplace. How do we get a geometric "square" with 12 stones anyway? Unless they are differently sized--then do we start trying to figure out which Apostle got the bigger rock?

My supposition on the name would be "Matthias", *but I don't think it's important.*

This kind of question could be asked about a lot of things. Take the "12 tribes" of Israel. Twelve tribes got territory. But Levi didn't. So, how many tribes were there anyway? In Revelation, "Dan" gets left of the list of "12" so that there are "12", and both Manasseh and Ephraim (Joseph's sons) are included, as well as Levi. So, _does this mean that "Dan" is no longer one of the Twelve Tribes_? We need to look for a "deeper" meaning than surface descriptions, precisely because the surface does not present a clean, mathematically precise equation, rendering all the variables.

To answer regarding Barnabas: Barnabas was not an "apostle" in the sense of those sent _by Christ_. He (and Paul) was "sent" by the Church. A direct commission by Christ is the manner of Paul's defense of his own, TRUE apostleship, over against the various 1st century claimants to the title (outside the original 12). Paul "fit" all the necessary criteria, hence, he was an apostle.

There is a correlation between the 12 Tribes and the 12 Apostles. In both cases, they are the _*reformation*_ of the (OT & NT) people of God. Jesus chose 12 in imitation of the 12 sons of Israel. The "24 elders" (12+12) represent these figures, as the "complete" church in heaven. But these must be idealized, clean numbers, since we are continually left with such questions as "what do we do with 13 or more names?"

Hope this is helpful.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Mar 5, 2008)

http://www.puritanboard.com/f46/who...ion-stone-Paul-barnabas-matthias-judas-28469/


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## ChristopherPaul (Mar 5, 2008)

Wow, way to kill a discussion guys. Just go and put the debate to rest why don't you.


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## Augusta (Mar 5, 2008)

They do that a lot.


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## Presbyterian Deacon (Mar 5, 2008)

ChristopherPaul said:


> Wow, way to kill a discussion guys. Just go and put the debate to rest why don't you.




Yep! No point in even rendering an opinion at this point! Although I agree with Contra_Mundum.


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## ChristopherPaul (Mar 5, 2008)

Presbyterian Deacon said:


> ChristopherPaul said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, way to kill a discussion guys. Just go and put the debate to rest why don't you.
> ...



Contra_Mundum's point along with VirginiaHuguenot's last post in the thread he linked pretty much says it all.


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## Contra_Mundum (Mar 5, 2008)

I'll just go ahead and apologize now, 

bump up my post count +1, 

and put another notch in my belt as to how many threads I've killed.


> *Will Bunny*: It's a **** of a thing, killing a _thread_. Take away all it's got and all it's ever gonna have.
> *The Schofield Bible Kid*: Yeah, well, I guess it had it coming.
> *Will Bunny*: We all got it coming, kid.


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## VictorBravo (Mar 5, 2008)

Well, I'll try to bring it back to life:



> How do we get a geometric "square" with 12 stones anyway?



Triangular ones--all the same size.

(That's the best I can do).


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## Presbyterian Deacon (Mar 5, 2008)

Nice try but I think this thread is long since gone.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Mar 5, 2008)

Paul is the 12th Apostle.



> Matthias was chosen by the Holy Spirit to replace Judas.



Where does it say that?

So the Holy Spirit chose Matthias by a casting of the lot?

I just aint convinced yet.

Not settled yet!


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## Contra_Mundum (Mar 5, 2008)

You clowns. I'm not going to forgive you for this...


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## VictorBravo (Mar 5, 2008)

Contra_Mundum said:


> You clowns. I'm not going to forgive you for this...


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## PuritanCovenanter (Mar 5, 2008)

Contra_Mundum said:


> You clowns. I'm not going to forgive you for this...





da waskawee wabbit has spoken...


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## Presbyterian Deacon (Mar 5, 2008)

Clowns!


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## Contra_Mundum (Mar 5, 2008)

Cowboys?


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## PuritanCovenanter (Mar 5, 2008)

Yeeee Haaawwwww!!!!!!!


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## turmeric (Mar 6, 2008)

Who's Will Bunny?


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## Grymir (Mar 6, 2008)

Isn't Gordon Hinckley a contender for the apostle question? 

Didn't Jesus say something about sheep not of this fold? 

Let's not bury this thread yet.


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## Contra_Mundum (Mar 6, 2008)

turmeric said:


> Who's Will Bunny?


[buries face in hands, whimpers, whispers: ]
_how can we possibly preach to people so out of touch with 15-year-old pop-culture that they can't finesse their way through a four-dimensional joke?_



and before anyone asks, YES! this is a joke too! NO! i will not explain it! 


are we  yet? how far...?


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## KMK (Mar 6, 2008)

Did Judas die an apostle? Was he officially stripped of his apostleship?


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## VictorBravo (Mar 6, 2008)

Contra_Mundum said:


> turmeric said:
> 
> 
> > Who's Will Bunny?
> ...



Sorry, Bruce. I should have provided a bit more light. It's sad when a joke goes so far astray that the need for explanation is bigger than the punch line.

So I won't say any more except WWCD?

(what would Clint do?)


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## ChristopherPaul (Mar 6, 2008)

KMK said:


> Did Judas die an apostle? Was he officially stripped of his apostleship?



[bible]Psalm 109:8[/bible]

I believe this verse means that he was stripped of his office. Judas was defrocked when Christ sent Him out of the upper room.


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## KMK (Mar 6, 2008)

ChristopherPaul said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> > Did Judas die an apostle? Was he officially stripped of his apostleship?
> ...



Good job! I would have never thought of going back to the Psalms to get my answer.


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