# Does the Three Office view allow for reading sermons?



## Abeard (Sep 26, 2017)

Sorry for the long title. Just wondering for those who hold the three office view. Would you allow an elder to lead the worship service and read a sermon?

I'm asking this because in our church we have a hard time finding ministers for pulpit supply. 

Thanks!

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## Andrew P.C. (Sep 26, 2017)

Abeard said:


> Sorry for the long title. Just wondering for those who hold the three office view. Would you allow an elder to lead the worship service read a sermon?
> 
> I'm asking this because in our church we have a hard time finding ministers for pulpit supply.
> 
> ...



I suppose I have to ask how this would be different then a two office view?


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## Parakaleo (Sep 26, 2017)

Andrew P.C. said:


> I suppose I have to ask how this would be different then a two office view?



I think those with a two-office view maintain that the ruling elder can preach just as lawfully as the minster, but stops short of a ruling elder adminstering sacraments.

Many denominations that hold to a three-office view in their standards have no problem with a ruling elder preaching (bringing an original message for a worship service), but I think this is somewhat inconsistent.

The original Directory for Publick Worship makes no provision for anyone to read or preach other than a minister. In the absence of a minister, it has been considered acceptable for a ruling elder to read the Scripture and a written sermon from a minister.

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## Abeard (Sep 26, 2017)

Two office doesn't really make a distinction between elder and pastor as far as I know. Three office distinguishes the two by title "ruling elder" and "teaching elder"

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## Abeard (Sep 26, 2017)

Parakaleo said:


> I think those with a two-office view maintain that the ruling elder can preach just as lawfully as the minster, but stops short of a ruling elder adminstering sacraments.
> 
> Many denominations that hold to a three-office view in their standards have no problem with a ruling elder preaching (bringing an original message for a worship service), but I think this is somewhat inconsistent.
> 
> The original Directory for Publick Worship makes no provision for anyone to read or preach other than a minister. In the absence of a minister, it has been considered acceptable for a ruling elder to read the Scripture and a written sermon from a minister.


Thanks for the response Blake. This is my dilemma.. I agree that there should be a distinction because a Minister is thoroughly examined by a seminary and his local presbytery. But the practical side of me sees that it makes it hard for a Minister to have Sundays off from preaching.

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## Edward (Sep 26, 2017)

Abeard said:


> Three office distinguishes the two by title "ruling elder" and "teaching elder"



Two office does, as well.

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## C. Matthew McMahon (Sep 26, 2017)

Parakaleo said:


> The original Directory for Publick Worship makes no provision for anyone to read or preach other than a minister.



Where exactly does the directory "OK" reading another's sermon?

"It is presupposed, (according to the rules for ordination,) that the minister of Christ is in some good measure *gifted* for so weighty a service, by *his skill* in the original languages, and in such arts and sciences as are handmaids unto divinity; by *his knowledge* in the whole body of theology, but most of all in the holy scriptures, having *his* senses and heart exercised in them above the common sort of believers; and by the illumination of God’s Spirit, and other gifts of edification, which (together with reading and studying of the word) *he* ought still to seek by prayer, and an humble heart, resolving to admit and receive any truth not yet attained, whenever God shall make it known unto him. All which *he* is to make use of, and improve, in *his private preparations*, before *he* deliver in public *what he hath* provided." (DPW, section on _preaching the word_.)


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## Parakaleo (Sep 26, 2017)

C. Matthew McMahon said:


> Where exactly does the directory "OK" reading another's sermon?



It doesn't, nor did I claim it does. I did add that it has "been considered" acceptable for ruling elders to read sermons, but that's anecdotal to my own experience and not from a Reformed confession or directory. I would actually like to learn more about when, how, and why it has become more acceptable.


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## Alan D. Strange (Sep 26, 2017)

Most of our two-office churches are not consistent: they require a separate ordination for elder and minister (or RE and TE) and do not permit the RE to administer the sacrament. That's why many refer to, say, the PCA, as a 2 1/2-office church. A strict two-office church would not make those distinctions. 

Similarly, most three-office churches permit, from time to time, practices inconsistent with their theory (such as permitting an elder to exhort). Those that seek to be more consistent, in an emergency situation (in which it is impossible to secure a minister), will permit an RE to read a sermon written by a minister. 

Blake is quite correct that the original DPWG permitted only the minister to read Scripture publicly and to preach the Word. This did not address the question, however, of what to do in the absence of a minister. It was rightly rejected as intolerable that such absence meant the cancellation of divine worship. It was thought most consistent with the requirement to have a minister (or someone preparing for such) preach, to have, in the irremediable absence of a minister, an elder read a sermon written by a minister. 

Peace,
Alan

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## Abeard (Sep 26, 2017)

"Howbeit, such as intend the ministry, may occasionally both read the word, and exercise their gift in preaching in the congregation, if allowed by the presbytery thereunto." 

It seems to me that the discretion is left to the Presbytery of who they would allow to preach.

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## Afterthought (Sep 26, 2017)

Some Acts of the Free Church GA concerning Readers after the Disruption.

https://books.google.com/books?id=2wZKAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA44#v=onepage&q&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=2wZKAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA3-PA51#v=onepage&q&f=false


Stepping back in time to a less mature Presbyterianism, the First Book of Discipline (http://www.swrb.com/newslett/actualNLs/bod_ch03.htm).

*For Readers*
To the kirks where no ministers can be had presently, must be appointed the most apt men that distinctly can read the common prayers and the scriptures, to exercise both themselves and the kirk, till they grow to greater perfection; and in process of time he that is but a reader may attain to the further degree, and by consent of the kirk and discreet ministers, may be permitted to minister the sacraments; but not before that he is able somewhat to persuade by wholesome doctrine, besides his reading, and is admitted to the ministry, as before is said. Some we know that of long time have professed Christ Jesus, whose honest conversation deserved praise of all godly men, and whose knowledge also might greatly help the simple, and yet they only content themselves with reading. These must be animated, and by gentle admonition encouraged, by some exhortation to comfort their brethren, and so they may be admitted to administration of the sacraments. But such readers as neither have had exercise, nor continuance in Christ's true religion, must abstain from ministration of the sacraments till they give declaration and witnessing of their honesty and further knowledge.


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## iainduguid (Sep 26, 2017)

Many of our denominations have a process of licensure, by which a ruling elder (or other suitable person) could be examined by his presbytery and a trial sermon preached, after which the presbytery deems him licensed to preach regularly (but not administer the sacraments). Licensure has now often become a halfway house on the road toward ordination, but it does have a broader application which ought not to be forgotten.

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## C. Matthew McMahon (Sep 26, 2017)

Parakaleo said:


> It doesn't, nor did I claim it does. I did add that it has "been considered" acceptable for ruling elders to read sermons, but that's anecdotal to my own experience and not from a Reformed confession or directory. I would actually like to learn more about when, how, and why it has become more acceptable.



My fault. Forgive me. 
Its my recovery process. Still a bit fuzzy.

Youre right. You didnt say or imply it. I misread it. Missed the "no".

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## Abeard (Sep 28, 2017)

Thanks for the responses! Much appreciated.

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## nicnap (Sep 29, 2017)

Abeard said:


> Two office doesn't really make a distinction between elder and pastor as far as I know. Three office distinguishes the two by title "ruling elder" and "teaching elder"



It actually distinguishes by using "Minister & Elder."


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## Wayne (Sep 29, 2017)

Forgive me if this was mentioned earlier in the thread (don't have time to read it all), but it should be taken into account that historically, the reading of Scripture was not "merely" the straight reading of the text, but necessarily included explanation and comment, and it is for that reason that the duty of reading was restricted to the minister.

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