# What causes nations and empires to decline?



## JM (Nov 18, 2009)

[video=youtube;jb4qgWigu64]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jb4qgWigu64[/video]

Francis Schaeffer answers the question.


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## Awenwonder (Nov 18, 2009)

Ultimately, the sovereignty of God. But are you really asking what practical means does God use to bring down nations and empires?


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## JM (Nov 18, 2009)

Thanks Tom, the question was answered in the video. A quote from the sidebar, "In the decline of all civilizations we first see a war against the freedom of ideas. Discussion is limited or prohibited."


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## Philip (Nov 18, 2009)

Quote from historian Will Durant:

_A certain tension between religion and society marks the highest stages of every civilization. Religion begins by offering magical aid to harassed and bewildered men; it culminates by giving to a people that unity of morals and belief which seems so favorable to statesmanship and art; it ends by fighting suicidally in the lost cause of the past. For as knowledge grows or alters continually, it clashes with mythology and theology, which change with geological leisureliness. Priestly control of arts and letters is then felt as a galling shackle or hateful barrier, and intellectual history takes on the character of a “conflict between science and religion” Institutions which were at first in the hands of the clergy, like law and punishment, education and morals, marriage and divorce, tend to escape from ecclesiastical control and become secular, perhaps profane. The intellectual classes abandon the ancient theology and — after some hesitation — the moral code allied with it; literature and philosophy become anticlerical. The movement of liberation rises to an exuberant worship of reason, and falls to a paralyzing disillusionment with every dogma and every idea. Conduct, deprived of its religious supports, deteriorates into epicurean chaos; and life itself, shorn of consoling faith, becomes a burden alike, to conscious poverty and to weary wealth. In the end, a society and its religion tend to fall together, like body and soul, in a harmonious death. Meanwhile, among the oppressed, another myth arises, gives new form to human hope, new courage to human effort, and after centuries of chaos builds another civilization._

I agree--except to say that Christianity will survive the fall of Western Civilization.


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## Pergamum (Nov 18, 2009)

Many intellectually and morally "superior" nations have fallen due to military inferiority.


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## Rich Coffeen (Nov 18, 2009)

*Biblical Philosophy of History*

Some classic reasons offered by historians: plague, famine, external invasion, declining birthrate, weather changes, exhausted local resources, adoption of a destructive worldview (fatalism, relativism, master-race-ness, cyclical time, etc.), STD's, animal migrations, currency debasement, hedonism.

Biblical philosophy of history comes from Deut 28: nations that obey are blessed, nations that disobey are cursed. Since God applies these promises to nations other than Israel (Sodom, Canaan, Tyre, Babylon, etc.), as well as to Israel herself (most especially in 586 BC and AD 70), I am inclined to think that this is still how we are to interpret history. 

As the centuries go by, cultures that obey the external terms of the covenant should be expected to receive the external blessings of the covenant, and vice-versa.


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## Pergamum (Nov 18, 2009)

_I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all._


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## Scott1 (Nov 19, 2009)

Primary cause is always the sovereignty of God.

Secondary causes: dependence on civil government for more and more provision for life, moral license, military weakness, drifting away from God and toward self as the ultimate.


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## MLCOPE2 (Nov 19, 2009)

Socialism!

Oh yeah, and that whole Sovereign God thing.


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## Pergamum (Nov 19, 2009)

Most of the most successful empires have been the most evil. 

I think the clip only applies to Western cultures which possess changing philosophies as they decline (Greek, Roman, maybe Western)....but there is a lot more of the world that Schaeffer's theory does not apply to. 

Also, Will Durant's quote speaks of "religion" but his quote cannot be as easily applied to Islamic Empires, Hindu Empires, etc.


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## Mushroom (Nov 19, 2009)

Sin.


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## Osage Bluestem (Nov 19, 2009)

Electing Democrats to office.


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## Christusregnat (Nov 19, 2009)

I believe that the answer may be found in Deuteronomy 28 and Leviticus 26. This would appear to be the general rule, while exceptions may occasionally be found. 

Calvin's sermons on Deuteronomy 27 and 28 flesh this out in detail. Here is an excerpt:



> First we see that even though the land of Canaan was given
> as an inheritance to the people of Israel, yet they were surely put
> out and banished *when they abused the favor that had been
> shown unto them*. God had planted them there, even as though
> ...



Cheers,


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## Pergamum (Nov 19, 2009)

Adam:

Is Deut 28 specifically for Israel? It seems to have been fulfilled exactly as predicted. 


Or,

Are you saying that Deut. 28 is a general rule for all nations?


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## Christusregnat (Nov 19, 2009)

Pergamum said:


> Adam:
> 
> Is Deut 28 specifically for Israel? It seems to have been fulfilled exactly as predicted.
> 
> ...



The Confession cites Leviticus 26 (and by implication, Deut. 28) as showing what sorts of curses God gives in this life for sin. This was Calvin's view as well, though obviously stripped of some of the typical aspects which were proper to Israel.

Also, it is significant that the Land of Canaan vomitted out the Canaanites for their sins, demonstrating that this is nothing unique to Israel:



> Leviticus 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in *all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you*: 25 And *the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants*. 26 Ye shall therefore *keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you*:



These things having nothing typical in them.

Cheers,

Adam


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## Pergamum (Nov 19, 2009)

But if this OT rule is applied more broadly to all nations rather than OT Israel and those nations which God commanded Israel during this era to kill (all their women and children too), then I do not see this rule being fulfilled today or even at that time among other nations outside of that specific time and geographical region. 

It is not an obvious rule of nations. It is not self-evident. Evil empires often seem to prosper more. 

God chooses to vomit out some sinners from some lands, but he prospers other sinners in other lands and there does not even seem to be a correlation high enough to say that this is a general rule.


Yes, the Confession cites OT passages which seem to say that bad things happen to sinners. And the Proverbs also give general outlines as well regarding the consequences of sin, i.e., that lazy people will be poor, etc. 

But we cannot apply this as a general rule for how nations have risen and fallen in history because the NT often speaks of God calling the poor, and evil people being in power. There is a theme in Scripture of God having mercy on the poor, persecuted, down-trodden. And in the history of nations, it is usually the evil that do the trodding down.


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## Christusregnat (Nov 19, 2009)

Pergamum said:


> But if this OT rule is applied more broadly to all nations rather than OT Israel and those nations which God commanded Israel during this era to kill (all their women and children too), then I do not see this rule being fulfilled today or even at that time among other nations outside of that specific time and geographical region.



There is no mention of holy war in the passages. Different subject. No one should presume to invade another's land without a voice from heaven telling him to do so. Again, different subject.



Pergamum said:


> It is not an obvious rule of nations. It is not self-evident. Evil empires often seem to prosper more.



Evil empires quake and fall. What sort of history books are you reading?



Pergamum said:


> God chooses to vomit out some sinners from some lands, but he prospers other sinners in other lands and there does not even seem to be a correlation high enough to say that this is a general rule.



God stated that the land vomits certain types of nations out of their lands. It is built into the fabric of creation. If the land does not, it is mercy, but mercy will not endure forever for the unrepentant.



Pergamum said:


> Yes, the Confession cites OT passages which seem to say that bad things happen to sinners. And the Proverbs also give general outlines as well regarding the consequences of sin, i.e., that lazy people will be poor, etc.



Then your problem is with Scripture, and its general rules, not with me.



Pergamum said:


> But we cannot apply this as a general rule for how nations have risen and fallen in history because the NT often speaks of God calling the poor, and evil people being in power.



Please produce specific examples covering the topic of the fall of nations. I can cite dozens from the NT dealing with the fall of a nation for its sin.

Adam


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## Pergamum (Nov 19, 2009)

There is a tension in Scripture:

---One tension is that if we follow the proverbs and righteousness, you will live well. 

---And also, that not many wise, etc, are called, and that the people of God were often the poor and the oppressed. 



What I have a problem with is an attempt to formulize the reasons why God has set the boundaries of nations as he has. The race is not to the swift so often under the sun, and the wicked often prosper under the sun. And God raises up evil regimes while the church is ordained to be persecuted in many lands.


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## Christusregnat (Nov 19, 2009)

Pergamum said:


> What I have a problem with is an attempt to formulize the reasons why God has set the boundaries of nations as he has.



I was not formulizing the reasons why God did this or that. God already formulized that. I was simply speaking of God's revealed will in the matter. And I'm not sorry I did. I'm not binding God in a box, I'm simply seeking to understand how His declarations concerning such matters apply to us. 

Israel was destroyed by their wickedness, Rome fell when they plunged themselves into debauchery, pleasure seeking idolary: panem et circences. Even civil virtues keep nations alive. The Canaanites were not ready for judgment in Abraham's day, but by the time Israel was delivered out of Egypt, the iniquity of the Amorites was full. God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah by fire and brimstone from heaven. The Fertile Crescent was turned into a huge desert once Islam overcame it. Christendom builty Europe from a howling wilderness to a fruitful and pleasant land. The loss of Christendom has depopulated Europe. It's not rocket science.


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## TaylorOtwell (Nov 19, 2009)

Forgetting God.


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## Pergamum (Nov 19, 2009)

Christusregnat said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > What I have a problem with is an attempt to formulize the reasons why God has set the boundaries of nations as he has.
> ...



I am not sure any divine formula is as tight as you would make it.

The Muslim empires flourished while Europe sat as a stinking cesspool for a thousand years and the Greek philosophers had to be rediscovered, many times from Muslim sources. Today, Norway, Sweden, Japan are among some of the most prosperous and Godless nations.

Rome was sinful when it fell, but also was sinful during its climb to power, some of its intrigues and conspiracies helped to cement power for the Empire in many cases.

Among the wealthiest in the US include secular Jewish people and homosexuals.


I do grant that monotheism helps develop individualism and a belief in a rational God helps develop the sciences. Also, winter seasons seem to help develop foresight and planning that many of the hot, tropical countries never developed. 

But there are many variables. 

Solomon could look at the world in its appearances as apparent chance. If Solomon could not find a rigid formula, then neither can I.


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## Christusregnat (Nov 19, 2009)

Pergamum said:


> The Muslim empires flourished while Europe sat as a stinking cesspool for a thousand years



This is simply not true. This is the Enlightenment's revisionist history of the "dark ages." 




Pergamum said:


> Today, Norway, Sweden, Japan are among some of the most prosperous and Godless nations.



Are you familiar with the current economic crisis? Are you aware of Japan's monetary problems? The general rule is not accomplished in a day. From Abraham to Moses was a few hundred years before the iniquity of the Amorites was full. God is patient, but this does not invalidate what He has declared in Scripture. 



Pergamum said:


> Rome was sinful when it fell, but also was sinful during its climb to power, some of its intrigues and conspiracies helped to cement power for the Empire in many cases.



All recognize the sins of Rome from the beginning. But they also had much more civil virtue at the inception than in the end. This is indisputable.



Pergamum said:


> Among the wealthiest in the US include secular Jewish people and homosexuals.



They flourish so that God may cut them down; what of it?




Pergamum said:


> Solomon could look at the world in its appearances as *apparent chance*. If Solomon could not find a rigid formula, then neither can I.



Precisely. There is no chance, and therefore, it is only apparent.

Cheers,

Adam


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## Pergamum (Nov 19, 2009)

But it is apparent, so apparent that Solomon could note it in Ecclesiastes and make it a major theme.

God will cut down the wicked, but at the Last Day. Many individuals and nations that are wicked flourish right up until that day.

There are general truths that, if followed, may lead to a better physical life or more wealth, but there is not a rigid formula (_more godly equals a more successful nation, less godly equals a decline in the nation_). This appears to be just the wealth and Health Gospel writ-large and applied to nations. 



The OP concerns what causes nations to rise or decline, and Schaeffer often proposes many philosphical reasons. Yet, military might, geographical resources, the "chance" events of plague and disaster, the number and strength of one's enemies at the borders, are all factors which get ignored by Scaeffer. The brightest and morally best do not always rise to the top in this world, exactly as is told us in Ecclesiastes, and - even if some general truths can generally lead to a better physical life on earth (i.e., the proverbs' wisdom concerning hard work), there is not a rigid formulaic cause-effect between morality and the rise and fall of nations.


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## Christusregnat (Nov 19, 2009)

Pergamum said:


> God will cut down the wicked, but at the Last Day. Many individuals and nations that are wicked flourish right up until that day.



This is not what Psalm 73 argues. While this can happen, and we must not expect poetic justice, yet that does not alter the rule, it merely establishes an exception to the rule.

Cheers,

Adam


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## Pergamum (Nov 19, 2009)

*More thoughts on the video clip:*

--Schaeffer seems to admit that a general theism by a rational Creator who gives rights to man is sufficient, and admits that the founding fathers were not all Christian (many were deists). This monotheism - also held by deism and jews - thus seems to be one of the main factors in promoting the prospering of the individual in the West. 

Thus, we should not necessarily expect greater theological correctness to correspond in a one-to-one relationship to freedom and prosperity, but we would see a general rule that, where the individual is allowed to prosper, which has happened in the West due to a believe in a good, rational God, then that nation will experience more freedoms. And also technology, too, will advance because a rational God would beget rational creational laws, which we can discover and manipulate.


Also, Schaeffer seems to speak of the superiority of our "form" and "balance of gov't." He thus appears to say that our Christian worldview has led us to our present American gov't (3 branches, separation of powers, etc). Thus, I guess he would conclude that monarchy is sub-biblical and incompatiable with the prospering of a nation. 





Finally, I would assume that one of those freedoms that make a nation prosper would be freedom to worship without coercion by the State, right?


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## Pergamum (Nov 19, 2009)

Christusregnat said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > God will cut down the wicked, but at the Last Day. Many individuals and nations that are wicked flourish right up until that day.
> ...



Matthew Henry on Psalm 73:



> The psalmist was strongly tempted to envy the prosperity of the wicked; a common temptation, which has tried the graces of many saints. But he lays down the great principle by which he resolved to abide. It is the goodness of God. This is a truth which cannot be shaken. Good thoughts of God will fortify against Satan's temptations. The faith even of strong believers may be sorely shaken, and ready to fail. There are storms that will try the firmest anchors. Foolish and wicked people have sometimes a great share of outward prosperity. They seem to have the least share of the troubles of this life; and they seem to have the greatest share of its comforts. They live without the fear of God, yet they prosper, and get on in the world. Wicked men often spend their lives without much sickness, and end them without great pain; while many godly persons scarcely know what health is, and die with great sufferings. Often the wicked are not frightened, either by the remembrance of their sins, or the prospect of their misery, but they die without terror. We cannot judge men's state beyond death, by what passes at their death. He looked abroad, and saw many of God's people greatly at a loss. Because the wicked are so very daring, therefore his people return hither; they know not what to say to it, and the rather, because they drink deep of the bitter cup of affliction. He spoke feelingly when he spoke of his own troubles; there is no disputing against sense, except by faith. From all this arose a strong temptation to cast off religion.






> The righteous man's afflictions end in peace, therefore he is happy; the wicked man's enjoyments end in destruction, therefore he is miserable. The prosperity of the wicked is short and uncertain, slippery places. See what their prosperity is; it is but a vain show, it is only a corrupt imagination, not substance, but a mere shadow; it is as a dream, which may please us a little while we are slumbering, yet even then it disturbs our repose.



It would appear that Psalm 73 speaks of that which occurs after this dream of life is past and the true estate of all things becomes clear.


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## Christusregnat (Nov 19, 2009)

Pergamum said:


> > The righteous man's afflictions end in peace, therefore he is happy; the wicked man's enjoyments end in destruction, therefore he is miserable. The *prosperity of the wicked is short and uncertain*, slippery places. See what their prosperity is; it is but a vain show, it is only a corrupt imagination, not substance, but a mere shadow; it is as a dream, which may please us a little while we are slumbering, yet even then it disturbs our repose.
> 
> 
> 
> It would appear that Psalm 73 speaks of that which occurs after this dream of life is past and the true estate of all things becomes clear.



The dream of which he speaks appears to be the prosperity of the wicked, not this life. That serves to prove my point. Thanks!


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## Pergamum (Nov 19, 2009)

Christusregnat said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > > The righteous man's afflictions end in peace, therefore he is happy; the wicked man's enjoyments end in destruction, therefore he is miserable. The *prosperity of the wicked is short and uncertain*, slippery places. See what their prosperity is; it is but a vain show, it is only a corrupt imagination, not substance, but a mere shadow; it is as a dream, which may please us a little while we are slumbering, yet even then it disturbs our repose.
> ...



But, the ending of the prosperity of the wicked often does not end until this life is over. I.e., there is not a rigid formula of _be godly=prosper physically_. The wicked prosper in this life, but are shown to be spiritually poor in the next.


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## Sgt Grit (Nov 19, 2009)

While I don’t believe there is a formula that gives nations blessings. I do know for certain that Gods wrath does eventually fall on those nations who reject Him and do evil in His eyes. However, if a nation were to truly repent of their sins, and as a nation turn to Christ I believe that nation would receive innumerable blessings. Why? God is sovereign in repentance, and if He calls us to repent its not onto destruction.


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