# Should we forgive unbelievers for sinning against us?



## Zork

Hi all.
Before I begin I would like to say I appreciate all your feedback.
You guys are great, I have learned so much from you all.

My Baptist pastor preached on the Lords prayer the other day. When he got to forgiveness he said something that really confused me.(lol, Not hard to do that).

He said that we must forgive each other as brother and sisters in Christ(When we sin against each other). But when it comes to unbelievers we must only forgive those who repent. "Ask us forgiveness".

Can this be true? Unbelievers don't have the capacity to live like we do right? 

Does anyone have resources available on this subject?
I searched the reformed sites I know but didn't find anything.

Thanks in advance.


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## Pergamum

God does not forgive the unrepentant, or else hell would be empty.


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## Reformedfellow

Yes you should.
Forgiveness is in the model Jesus gave for prayer and supplication. (Matthew 6:12) "Forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors" (he makes no distinction that this is reserved only for believers)

He does give a WARNING however in Luke 16 about not forgiving the repentant sinner. Saying "if he repents, you MUST forgive him". But this should not be mistaken as forgiveness is only required for those who are "sorry". 

Romans 5:6-8
6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Jesus pleaded for those who were directly involved in crucifying him saying "Father FORGIVE THEM, for they know not what they do". Now, how could they be "repentant" if they did not even know they were doing wrong?

Our ministry of reconciliation in the world, and our public witness and testimony of the Spirit of Christ in us will naturally incline us to forgive those who persecute us, and how much more to forgive one who sins against us. 

But, do not be confused by the worldly idiom to "forgive and forget". It's not about forgetting, or allowing a trust to be formed immediately thereafter. In some extreme cases, trust may be permanently damaged. But FORGIVENESS is absolutely necessary for Christian maturity, not to mention our spiritual and mental health. 
How miserable is the soul that holds on to a root of bitterness! 

Know how much God has forgiven you in Christ brother. Know how much grace we have freely been given in Christ. Let that set you alight with joy, and forgive your enemies.


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## Reformedfellow

Ronny,
How's this for forgiveness brother!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-vHk7VyWMo&list=UUdlxWNzGGPKzQLMXkkyZkUQ&index=161&feature=plcp

..and you see the outcome. How can we win our neighbors if we won't extend forgiveness to them? (Yes, even when they have sinned against us in the WORST WAY IMAGINABLE)


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## Zork

Reformedfellow said:


> Yes you should.
> Forgiveness is in the model Jesus gave for prayer and supplication. (Matthew 6:12) "Forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors" (he makes no distinction that this is reserved only for believers)
> 
> He does give a WARNING however in Luke 16 about not forgiving the repentant sinner. Saying "if he repents, you MUST forgive him". But this should not be mistaken as forgiveness is only required for those who are "sorry".
> 
> Romans 5:6-8
> 6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
> 
> Jesus pleaded for those who were directly involved in crucifying him saying "Father FORGIVE THEM, for they know not what they do". Now, how could they be "repentant" if they did not even know they were doing wrong?
> 
> Our ministry of reconciliation in the world, and our public witness and testimony of the Spirit of Christ in us will naturally incline us to forgive those who persecute us, and how much more to forgive one who sins against us.
> 
> But, do not be confused by the worldly idiom to "forgive and forget". It's not about forgetting, or allowing a trust to be formed immediately thereafter. In some extreme cases, trust may be permanently damaged. But FORGIVENESS is absolutely necessary for Christian maturity, not to mention our spiritual and mental health.
> How miserable is the soul that holds on to a root of bitterness!
> 
> Know how much God has forgiven you in Christ brother. Know how much grace we have freely been given in Christ. Let that set you alight with joy, and forgive your enemies.



Thanks a lot. 
I agree even if it is a unbeliever we should forgive them even if they don't say sorry. They are not regenerated. We are.
Isn't there a study that can help us?


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## Pergamum

Grace in the Triad: Jay Adams on Forgiving others




> Some unthinking Christians advise forgiving another whether or not he confesses sin. But they misunderstood forgiveness. They urge this to benefit the one who forgives. Yet, it was for your benefit that God forgave you. Their self-centered concept of forgiveness is unbiblical. God did not forgive you until you repented, admitted you were a sinner, and believed. Indeed, even now, when God dispenses parental forgiveness, He says, “…if you don’t forgive men, then your Father won’t forgive your transgressions” (Matt. 6:15).


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## py3ak

> Indeed, even now, when God dispenses parental forgiveness, He says, “…if you don’t forgive men, then your Father won’t forgive your transgressions” (Matt. 6:15).



Is this seriously advanced as supporting the thesis that we should withhold forgiveness?


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## gordo

Reformedfellow said:


> But FORGIVENESS is absolutely necessary for Christian maturity, not to mention our spiritual and mental health. How miserable is the soul that holds on to a root of bitterness!



That's the truth right there. Forgiveness is in many ways about you and your spiritual well being and not so much about the person that wronged you. Walking around with anger and bitterness over someone who wronged you is hurting you more then it is hurting them. Jesus wanted us to forgive not just to be peacemakers but for our own well being.


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## a mere housewife

Pergamum said:


> Grace in the Triad: Jay Adams on Forgiving others
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some unthinking Christians advise forgiving another whether or not he confesses sin. But they misunderstood forgiveness. They urge this to benefit the one who forgives. Yet, it was for your benefit that God forgave you. Their self-centered concept of forgiveness is unbiblical. God did not forgive you until you repented, admitted you were a sinner, and believed. Indeed, even now, when God dispenses parental forgiveness, He says, “…if you don’t forgive men, then your Father won’t forgive your transgressions” (Matt. 6:15).
Click to expand...


Pergs, do you think Jay Adams seriously means to characterise the persecuted church when it forgives its tormenters, the Christian woman who forgives an unbelieving, adulterous, abusive husband, the child who has long term issues from abuse who forgiven its parents -- all situations I know about -- as 'unthinking' and 'self centered' in their conception of forgiveness? We simply don't have the right to withhold forgiveness. Vengeance does not belong to us, but to God; and we are not given authority to reflect that aspect of His character. We are commanded to reflect His forgiveness. We are always too much in debt to Him to be holding debts over one another; and He asks us to give the exacting of those debts over to Him, with prayers for the good of those who have hurt us.

(edit: I suppose I am trying to say that we simply don't have the ontological or moral status not to forgive -- which view is not a 'self centered' concept of forgiveness, as it is centered in the rights of a righteous God.)


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## Romans922

Christians often believe that God has called them to forgive everyone who sins against them, regardless of their repentance. In fact, God never commands us to do such a thing, and God Himself is our example in this regard. God only forgives those with a repentant heart. How then can we love our enemies? How can we love the unrepentant? Let’s begin with the example of our Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.

In Luke 23:34, Christ prayed for His killers, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” There are several possible ways to interpret these words. Perhaps Jesus was merely asking the Father to withhold His hand from destroying them immediately, since their crucifixion of the Lord of Glory was done in ignorance (1 Cor. 2:7-8). Perhaps Jesus is speaking of actual forgiveness of their sins. If so, then perhaps Jesus is praying generally and conditionally for all, similar to His request in the Garden of Gethsemane that “if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.” He may be saying, in effect “forgive them, but not My will but Yours be done.” Or perhaps Jesus knows that some of those participating in His execution are elect: those for whom He is currently dying. In this case, He would be praying on the basis of the atonement that He is accomplishing at that very moment, that those elect would not be damned. While commentators may disagree on the best option, we can say that any of these three options are plausible, biblical interpretations.

Matthew Henry says concerning Luke 23:34, “This is written also for example to us. First, we must in prayer call God Father, and come to him with reverence and confidence, as children to a father. Secondly, the great thing we must beg of God, both for ourselves _and others_, is the forgiveness of sins. Thirdly, we must pray for our enemies, and those that hate and persecute us, must extenuate their offences, and not aggravate them as we must our own (They know not what they do; peradventure it was an oversight); and we must be earnest with God in prayer for the forgiveness of their sins, their sins against us. This is Christ's example to his own rule (“Love your enemies,” Mat. 5:44-45); and it very much strengthens the rule, for, if Christ loved and prayed for such enemies, what enemies can we have that we are not obliged to love and pray for?”

When Stephen is put to death in Acts 7 he prays something very similar to Jesus in Luke 23:34, “He cried out with a loud voice, ‘Lord, do not hold this sin against them.’” As Jesus did, so Stephen prayed for his enemies, even at the point of them putting Stephen to death. This too sets forth a great example that we ought to pray for those who persecute us. His prayer _preaches_. It shows those who heard the prayer their sin and need of divine mercy and grace. His prayer shows charity to his killers; that he desired not their destruction but their salvation. We could think of Paul in Romans 9:3 as well, “For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh.” Paul’s love for his Israelite brothers is bold and self-denying. His longing desire is for their salvation, even if it would mean being accursed, himself, if possible. Likewise Paul says in Romans 10:1, “Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved.”

Luke 17:3-4 says, “Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.” There is the simple statement that the Christian forgives those who repent, just as the Lord forgives those who turn from their sin and turn to Him. Does that mean that a Christian can hold a grudge, hate the offender, since they haven’t explicitly repented of their sin? Does God allow Christians to hate unrepentant sinners? The above examples should be sufficient to show that the answer to both of those questions is an emphatic “No!” Luke 6:35 states (just to be clear), “But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil.” God is kind to those who are ungrateful and evil. As God’s own people, Christians are a prime example of that. Christian, you were once separated from God, dead in your trespasses and sins. _You _were evil. And as God showed mercy to you so you ought to show mercy to others (Matthew 18:21-35). We ought to love the unrepentant. Yet, loving the unrepentant sinner is not the same as forgiving him.

What about the one who professes faith in Christ but is unrepentant? It looks much like Galatians 6:1-2, “Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.” More specifically, it looks like Matthew 18:15-18, “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” How do you show this love? First, you seek to restore them by the Word of God, admonishing them with the Scriptures (2 Timothy 3:16-17). If they remain unrepentant through the process of Matthew 18:15ff, then eventually the elders will excommunicate them. Only then should they be treated “as a Gentile and a tax collector”.

As we have seen in our examples of Jesus, Stephen, and Paul, they loved the unrepentant through prayer to the Father: that He would not destroy them, but that they might be saved, if it be the Lord’s will. This is a prayer that those elect would not be damned. They loved the unrepentant by begging God through prayer for Him to forgive the unrepentant of their sins. Thus, they prayed that their enemies who persecuted them would see their sin and repent. Just as Christ loved and prayed for His enemies in this way, so we too must love and pray for our enemies. As Stephen prayed with loud cries before his enemies we too must pray before our enemies pleading that they would see their sin, their need of divine mercy and grace, and for God to save them.


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## Reformedfellow

Joshua said:


> Of course you should.
> 
> 
> We are not God, but His creatures, and therefore are not privy to the level of withholding forgiveness as He rightly is. Because He is without sin, and all sins are against Him ultimately ("against Thee and Thee only, have I sinned," says the Psalmist), He may rightly forgive or not. We, on the other hand, considering that great mountain of debt we owe to God (and yet He still forgives His elect - even of our unknown and unconfessed sin), ought always to be forward to forgive and pursue as much peace as is possible. This will not always result in full forgiveness or reconciliation, but we are to forgive as much as lies with us.



Excellent point. Well said.


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## Miss Marple

I offer this thought for (gentle!) critique, not as instruction from me to anyone - I am well aware that I am posting among elders and pastors and professors and men who read theology as an avocation...

we ask God to forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

If God only forgives the debts we have repented of, then how can anyone be forgiven? For do we not all have sins of ignorance, as well of sins we are in denial about?

I must be forgiven for my sins I am too stupid to recognize as sin; too sinful to recognize as sin; and too sinfully lazy to remember that I did to repent of.

So, I think if I hope for God to forgive me these sins, I need to forgive others who are indebted to me. Whether they ever acknowledge their sin or not.


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## Zork

Miss Marple said:


> I offer this thought for (gentle!) critique, not as instruction from me to anyone - I am well aware that I am posting among elders and pastors and professors and men who read theology as an avocation...
> 
> we ask God to forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
> 
> If God only forgives the debts we have repented of, then how can anyone be forgiven? For do we not all have sins of ignorance, as well of sins we are in denial about?
> 
> I must be forgiven for my sins I am too stupid to recognize as sin; too sinful to recognize as sin; and too sinfully lazy to remember that I did to repent of.
> 
> So, I think if I hope for God to forgive me these sins, I need to forgive others who are indebted to me. Whether they ever acknowledge their sin or not.



I agree with you, Good study of forgiveness?? 
Why are there so many differences when it comes to this?
Unbelievers don't have the conviction we do(Through the Holy Spirit) so why do we keep grudges against them. 
Shouldn't Christians be thick skinned? Not easily offended? Shouldn't we be tough? See only one thing and that's that God be Glorified.
How will God be Glorified if I walk around with bitterness and pain? (Feel that I was wronged)

Please correct me if I am wrong.(Biblical)


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## jogri17

Given for all that God has forgiven me, how could I not forgive my neighbour? I strongly believe that we should try to stop thinking of non-Christians as ''the others'' and more as our fellow neighbours because they are!


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## crimsonleaf

Being forgiven can be a humbling experience in itself, and lead to repentance. Strangly, an unrepentant sinner may remain so through unforgiven guilt.


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