# how to pronounce 'v' and 'c' in Latin?



## a mere housewife

Ruben and I were having a disagreement about this: he doesn't think that 'v' was pronounced 'w' or that 'c' was always pronounced 'k'. His argument was that saying 'Waro' and 'Kikero' sound stupid, and nobody could be that stupid. I told him that 'we affirm the major, but deny the minor premise' (a manner of speech I have learned from Zacharius Ursinus, who seems to take a certain amount of delight in denying the minor premise: I love that about him): in support of which I offered this argument: People are that stupid, in evidence of which I affirmed specifically, that I am that stupid. He then adduced the authority of the church, in an unbroken succession from the time of the apostles, singing their Latin 'v's and soft or challoed (challoed is my own word, meaning 'ch'ed) 'c's. I adduced the authority of Benjamin D'ooge. He told me that Benjamin D'ooge was probably operating on the assumption that the Barbarians would have pronounced Latin words correctly, for which evidence we have only the Barbarian spelling of Latin words: and as we all know, Barbarians are stupid. I told him that I wasn't sure Waro and Kikero would agree with him, at which point the disagreement degenerated into physical violence, during which time a character building quote from Ernest P. Worrell inwardly sustained me ("Real men are not intimidated by physical threats to their personal selves; and, ironically, neither am I.") Basically I'm being persecuted for my beliefs by the magisterial authority of the church regarding the unbroken apostolic succession of Latin pronunciation.

I would like to know which is correct -- and if we are not always to pronounce 'c', 'k', what are the rules for pronouncing it otherwise? I do not want to know this just to win an argument, but in pursuit of truth, which I accidentally embarked on, when I casually interrupted Ruben in the middle of something he was saying to remark, 'Vade ad formicam O Piger.' (It was this that gave rise to the disagreement: you may notice that I now know two Latin phrases, so I'm making great headway on being able to read those Latin theological works that constantly reference ants, sluggards, and Brutus.)


----------



## CharlieJ

*Classical and Medieval*

There are actually 4 schemes of pronunciation for Latin. In classical, 'c' is pronounced 'k' and 'v' (really just a consonantal 'u') is pronounced 'w.' Later church Latin moved the 'c' at times to 'ch' and the 'v' to 'v'. But here, just look at this:

http://www.ai.uga.edu/mc/latinpro.pdf


----------



## Wayne

Love it! 

 

[and I've never had real cause to use this little guy before]


----------



## CharlieJ

a mere housewife said:


> Basically I'm being persecuted for my beliefs by the magisterial authority of the church regarding the unbroken apostolic succession of Latin pronunciation.



Yeah, you can't argue with the inspired Wulgate, er... Vulgate.


----------



## a mere housewife

Wayne I'm not sure what happens to those who laugh at the sufferings of others, but I'm sure there is a Latin maxim and that it probably requires one to pronounce 'v' or 'c'.

Charlie, thanks very much. I see that he recommends 'Northern Continental' Latin: but is it generally agreed that this is the best way to learn to pronounce? Presumably many people are too stupid to be proficient enough to switch between four modes. (for instance, I am.)

(I have to clarify that it is Ursinus who takes delight in denying a minor premise in the commentary on his catechism: I know only enough of most of the interestingly named reformers to have them variously impress themselves on my mind mistakenly as being the one I mean -- though I would hope that Mr. Bullinger also enjoyed denying a minor premise.)


----------



## Wayne

a mere housewife said:


> Wayne I'm not sure what happens to those who laugh at the sufferings of others. . .,



There _is _a maxim, but it's in Hebrew, and you don't _even_ want to go there!

WAW


----------



## Presbyterian Deacon

CharlieJ said:


> a mere housewife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Basically I'm being persecuted for my beliefs by the magisterial authority of the church regarding the unbroken apostolic succession of Latin pronunciation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, you can't argue with the inspired Wulgate, er... Vulgate.
Click to expand...


Heidi:

When in doubt, go with the advice of the Apostle:

"...if they shall learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home."


----------



## CharlieJ

*Speaking*



a mere housewife said:


> Charlie, thanks very much. I see that he recommends 'Northern Continental' Latin: but is it generally agreed that this is the best way to learn to pronounce? Presumably many people are too stupid to be proficient enough to switch between four modes. (for instance, I am.)



Well, it really depends on what you're reading. He recommends NC pronunciation for pronouncing words in a professional context outside the classics, such as during a science or music presentation. If you're reading the classics, you really ought to use the classical. I'm pretty sure most Latinists these days almost exclusively use the classical. However, the "church Latin" is what you sing...

So, I use classical when I read or speak Latin. I use Italian (church) Latin when I sing. If I'm in an English conversation and I use a Latin word that's commonly known by English speakers, such as "via," I pronounce it the way they're used to hearing it.


----------



## a mere housewife

Wayne said:


> There _is _a maxim, but it's in Hebrew, and you don't _even_ want to go there!
> 
> WAW



Hmm, yes -- Hebrew is not on my shortlist of things to be persecuted about.



Joshua said:


> I usually just go _vuh_ and _suh_ or _vuh_ and _kuh_. And I'm usually right about almost everything, so you may want to take my advice and what not.



Josh, while we're sharing this rare moment of conviviality between abject serf and mighty overlord, I wanted to wish you a Happy Birthday, and Welcome you to the Board.



Presbyterian Deacon said:


> Heidi:
> 
> When in doubt, go with the advice of the Apostle:
> 
> "...if they shall learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home."



I'm "remonstrating" at this point.



CharlieJ said:


> Well, it really depends on what you're reading. He recommends NC pronunciation for pronouncing words in a professional context outside the classics, such as during a science or music presentation. If you're reading the classics, you really ought to use the classical. I'm pretty sure most Latinists these days almost exclusively use the classical. However, the "church Latin" is what you sing...
> 
> So, I use classical when I read or speak Latin. I use Italian (church) Latin when I sing. If I'm in an English conversation and I use a Latin word that's commonly known by English speakers, such as "via," I pronounce it the way they're used to hearing it.




Thanks again Charlie. So basically I am allowed to say 'v' instead of 'w' if I want to, or if my spirit is broken.


----------



## Berean

Heidi: Does Ruben wear his mask during these 'discussions'? Just curious.


----------



## a mere housewife

I usually wear his mask during these discussions.


----------



## Presbyterian Deacon

a mere housewife said:


> So basically I am allowed to say 'v' instead of 'w' if I want to, or if my spirit is broken.



You might even wish to think of changing your name to *"a mere housevife"*


----------



## Wayne

Presbyterian Deacon said:


> You might even wish to think of changing your name to *"a mere housevife"*



Oye wey!


----------



## Knoxienne

Just the other day I was listening to one of those Great Courses Teaching Tapes and the professor pronounced Julius Caesar's "vini vedi vici" wienie weddie weechie. LOL So I guess there are some who pronounce "v" that way.


----------



## Scottish Lass

Presbyterian Deacon said:


> a mere housewife said:
> 
> 
> 
> So basically I am allowed to say 'v' instead of 'w' if I want to, or if my spirit is broken.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You might even wish to think of changing your name to *"a mere housevife"*
Click to expand...


Or "Hench Vench"


----------



## fredtgreco

Heidi,

Please have Ruben ask the Kaisars if the Latin "c" was hard or soft! (Then you can show him the "s" and ask him to point out a Latin word in which a "k" exists!! Seriously, you can also see from Greek transliterated words that the Greek kappa is consistently translated as a "c."

And by the way, you're right. I'm sure if you two were in Houston (as you should be!) we could have a grand time teaming up on the Batman wannabee.


----------



## LawrenceU

Knoxienne said:


> Just the other day I was listening to one of those Great Courses Teaching Tapes and the professor pronounced Julius Caesar's "vini vedi vici" wienie weddie weechie. LOL So I guess there are some who pronounce "v" that way.



Yes, the tapes we use for Amy Jo's Latin lessons have this direct pronunciation in them and the teacher keeps a straight face! Personally, I am certain that the 'v' was not pronounced as the English 'w'. No culture with that pronunciation could have dominated the world as did the Romans. 

You should listen to Amy Jo and I trying to study Latin together. I was taught a whole different pronunciation scheme.

BTW, how on earth did residents of the the state of North Carolina become the standard setters for the pronunciation of Latin?


----------



## a mere housewife

fredtgreco said:


> Heidi,
> 
> Please have Ruben ask the Kaisars if the Latin "c" was hard or soft! (Then you can show him the "s" and ask him to point out a Latin word in which a "k" exists!! Seriously, you can also see from Greek transliterated words that the Greek kappa is consistently translated as a "c."
> 
> And by the way, you're right. I'm sure if you two were in Houston (as you should be!) we could have a grand time teaming up on the Batman wannabee.



Would we pelt him with meatballs?



LawrenceU said:


> Knoxienne said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just the other day I was listening to one of those Great Courses Teaching Tapes and the professor pronounced Julius Caesar's "vini vedi vici" wienie weddie weechie. LOL So I guess there are some who pronounce "v" that way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, the tapes we use for Amy Jo's Latin lessons have this direct pronunciation in them and the teacher keeps a straight face! Personally, I am certain that the 'v' was not pronounced as the English 'w'. No culture with that pronunciation could have dominated the world as did the Romans.
> 
> You should listen to Amy Jo and I trying to study Latin together. I was taught a whole different pronunciation scheme.
> 
> BTW, how on earth did residents of the the state of North Carolina become the standard setters for the pronunciation of Latin?
Click to expand...


Yes, sadly, the glory has departed for me from Kaisar. One can only imagine a little man slouching around muttering in nasal tones: 'Wienie, Weddie, Wechie'. A cartoon version of the Roman empire has with the revelation of the 'w' sound of 'v's replaced the substantial delight and awe and disgust and terror and whatnot over Roman history I have always felt: such is the effect of education on the female mind.

Thank you everyone for the help with the questions. I'm rather hesitant to confess that I am actually trying to learn Latin -- because I'm so bad with languages and expect that I will not be able to learn well enough to read the things I hope to (I am not even thinking of being proficient enough to speak -- but I would like very much to be able to be communicated unto by things other people have written, and one of my hang ups is that I read 'aloud' in my head; so a pronunciation scheme does matter. Besides language is a form of music I would hate to miss). I do enjoy reading classic literature, and I would like to learn to read theological things that I can't access in English; but I am not even going to attempt to learn more than one pronunciation scheme, trepidatious as I am about my ability to learn at all. So after reading all the information I think perhaps church Latin is best, to keep everything standardised and be able to understand vocal music as well, etc.


----------



## fredtgreco

a mere housewife said:


> fredtgreco said:
> 
> 
> 
> Heidi,
> 
> Please have Ruben ask the Kaisars if the Latin "c" was hard or soft! (Then you can show him the "s" and ask him to point out a Latin word in which a "k" exists!! Seriously, you can also see from Greek transliterated words that the Greek kappa is consistently translated as a "c."
> 
> And by the way, you're right. I'm sure if you two were in Houston (as you should be!) we could have a grand time teaming up on the Batman wannabee.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would we pelt him with meatballs?
Click to expand...


If they were the horrible pre-made kind from the grocery store, yes. If the actual good homemade kind, NO.


----------



## LawrenceU

fredtgreco said:


> a mere housewife said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fredtgreco said:
> 
> 
> 
> Heidi,
> 
> Please have Ruben ask the Kaisars if the Latin "c" was hard or soft! (Then you can show him the "s" and ask him to point out a Latin word in which a "k" exists!! Seriously, you can also see from Greek transliterated words that the Greek kappa is consistently translated as a "c."
> 
> And by the way, you're right. I'm sure if you two were in Houston (as you should be!) we could have a grand time teaming up on the Batman wannabee.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would we pelt him with meatballs?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If they were the horrible pre-made kind from the grocery store, yes. If the actual good homemade kind, NO.
Click to expand...



I am envisioning a frozen meatball ballista. . .


----------



## greenbaggins

I agree with Charlie. It's really rather simple. Pronounce the Latin in the way the original hearers/readers would have pronounced it. For classical Latin, that means the classical pronunciation. For church Latin, that means ecclesiastical Latin pronunciation. I would NOT, however, recommend the European pronunciation, because that rarely corresponds with how the original readers/hearers would have pronounced it. The only time it has been helpful has been in performances of Bruckner, where the Germanized Latin was used, because that's how Bruckner's original performances would have been, and that's what Bruckner himself was hearing. In general, the ecclesiastical Latin pronunciation is more common. However, in classical Latin education these days, the classical pronunciation prevails. Interestingly, this point comes up in the old black and white movie "Goodbye, Mr. Chips," which I just saw recently, and which is an interesting movie.


----------



## a mere housewife

Well if the meatballs are going to be *frozen* I will have to stand by my man. I can only pelt him with pillows and defrosted raw meat other soft objects 



> I agree with Charlie. It's really rather simple. Pronounce the Latin in the way the original hearers/readers would have pronounced it. For classical Latin, that means the classical pronunciation. For church Latin, that means ecclesiastical Latin pronunciation. I would NOT, however, recommend the European pronunciation, because that rarely corresponds with how the original readers/hearers would have pronounced it. The only time it has been helpful has been in performances of Bruckner, where the Germanized Latin was used, because that's how Bruckner's original performances would have been, and that's what Bruckner himself was hearing. In general, the ecclesiastical Latin pronunciation is more common. However, in classical Latin education these days, the classical pronunciation prevails. Interestingly, this point comes up in the old black and white movie "Goodbye, Mr. Chips," which I just saw recently, and which is an interesting movie.



Unfortunately being that mentally flexible is I imagine far more difficult for me than it is for most people; and though I'm willing to accept so far as it goes, how things would have been spoken on the basis of modern scholarship, I think it would probably still be something of a surprise to actually speak to Eeeyulius Kaisar? So -- I'm willing to try to learn the standard classic scheme too if it's worth it: but I've been cast into doubt. Perhaps those who've read the Latin poets can tell me: does that pronunciation _add_ to the sound/quality of the poetry? Is it actually beautiful, or more like 'Wienie, weddie, weechie'? (It would be a disappointment to find out that their poetry is more flat than sonorous.)

-----Added 12/12/2009 at 01:56:01 EST-----



Joshua said:


> All this convolution even _after_ I've posted the proper answer?!?!!!



Now, Joshua I could throw frozen meatballs at . . . (smiles sweetly)


----------



## a mere housewife

(Joshua I hope you know I wouldn't really throw anything frozen at you. I might throw rat brains at you sometimes -- on Thursdays, esp. -- but I would never throw anything frozen at anyone I have not yet unbefriended yet.


----------



## Wayne

Man! And I left my decoder ring at work!


----------



## Theognome

Joshua said:


> Parsticiously garbling palate matters will not sufficiently take pans.



Non-sequitur, Sir: Not only do you lack a proper flute for this, but your poor taste in this matter cannot overcome fictitious terms and frigid projectiles. Choose wisely- have no friends, or many welts.

Theognome


----------

