# Does God Still Blind Nations?



## KMK (Apr 15, 2008)

I was getting no help when I posted this on a different thread so I thought I would start a new one.

I have been struggling lately with this issue:



> Rom 11:8-10 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.



Is it possible that God could give a spirit of slumber on a national level?
Is it possible that blessings given to a nation could become a snare to that nation?

In other words,, if a nation makes vows to God (as our American forefathers did) and is blessed by God but later begins to trust in those blessings rather than the blessor (as Israel did) could God blind them on a national level? (except for a faithful remnant, of course)

Is the national blindness of Israel a fulfilment of specific prophecy or is it a 'general principle'?


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## Stephen (Apr 15, 2008)

Yes, I believe He still blinds nations who are in rebellion and unbelief. I preached on the Parable of the Sower from Mark 4 this past Lord's Day. Jesus quotes from Isaiah 6, where God tells the Prophet He will cause the nation to remain in their blindness and unbelief. There are certainly evidences of this in the Old Testament. I think that there are nations today who are blind. If you look at the progress of the gospel, why are there nations (Africa) coming to Christ while in other places the gospel does not seem to penetrate. Only the LORD can remove the blindness of nations and cause them to see the truth. Excellent question to ponder. I have recently thought of this myself as an American pastor ministering in Eastern Canada.


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## Blueridge Believer (Apr 15, 2008)

I think it's very possible this nation has been hardened just has Pharoah was.


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## Stephen (Apr 15, 2008)

Blueridge Baptist said:


> I think it's very possible this nation has been hardened just has Pharoah was.


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## Blueridge Believer (Apr 15, 2008)

Jer 3:2 Lift up thine eyes unto the high places, and see where thou hast not been lien with. In the ways hast thou sat for them, as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness. 
Jer 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.


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## A5pointer (Apr 15, 2008)

I don't think so. The concept of nation was unique to the OT, where peoples were co-existing in relationship to Israel. Israel who was under covenant with God. Covenant that was temporal/physical in nature. That covenant/Mosaic is over. That covenant promised real physical events regarding covenant obedience/disobedience. Paul in Romans is explaining the why of events relating to covenant Israel in the OT.


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## Southern Presbyterian (Apr 15, 2008)

Blueridge Baptist said:


> I think it's very possible this nation has been hardened just has Pharoah was.


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## Stephen (Apr 15, 2008)

A5pointer said:


> I don't think so. The concept of nation was unique to the OT, where peoples were co-existing in relationship to Israel. Israel who was under covenant with God. Covenant that was temporal/physical in nature. That covenant/Mosaic is over. That covenant promised real physical events regarding covenant obedience/disobedience. Paul in Romans is explaining the why of events relating to covenant Israel in the OT.




The concept of *Nation *is unique to God at all times. God created all of mankind to be in covenant with him. At creation He gave the creation or covenant mandate that we are to rule and fill the earth to His glory. The covenant is still binding today. The Abrahamic covenant as well as the Mosaic covenant is spiritual. The LORD has promised that the blessings of Abraham are ours in Christ (Galatians 3 & 4). The Great Commission was given in Matthew 28 to make disciples of the *Nations*. I am surprised you were able to join the Puritan Board, considering you just affirmed dispensationalism.


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## A5pointer (Apr 15, 2008)

Stephen said:


> A5pointer said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think so. The concept of nation was unique to the OT, where peoples were co-existing in relationship to Israel. Israel who was under covenant with God. Covenant that was temporal/physical in nature. That covenant/Mosaic is over. That covenant promised real physical events regarding covenant obedience/disobedience. Paul in Romans is explaining the why of events relating to covenant Israel in the OT.
> ...



Not dispensational at all. God did not intend all mankind to be in Mosaic covenant with Him. Israel he has uniquely loved. You are missing it even as your post confirms my opinion. It is as you say spiritual. And as you say it is now for all nations unlike the old. You are saying the mosaic covenant is still in force today? Are you coming from a theonomist point of view? The mods will let me know if they see my memership in question and I will gladly yield to their opinion.


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## KMK (Apr 15, 2008)

A5pointer said:


> I don't think so. The concept of nation was unique to the OT, where peoples were co-existing in relationship to Israel. Israel who was under covenant with God. Covenant that was temporal/physical in nature. That covenant/Mosaic is over. That covenant promised real physical events regarding covenant obedience/disobedience. Paul in Romans is explaining the why of events relating to covenant Israel in the OT.



According to your view, then, the US is not in a covenant with God in the same way Israel was and is therefore not under the the same threatenings?


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## A5pointer (Apr 15, 2008)

KMK said:


> A5pointer said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think so. The concept of nation was unique to the OT, where peoples were co-existing in relationship to Israel. Israel who was under covenant with God. Covenant that was temporal/physical in nature. That covenant/Mosaic is over. That covenant promised real physical events regarding covenant obedience/disobedience. Paul in Romans is explaining the why of events relating to covenant Israel in the OT.
> ...



Yes, exactly. Israel was the only nation/people ever in covenant with God as prescribed in the Mosaic. This reminds me of those who like to cite "if my people.....I will heaL their land". It is a mistake to see America or any other nation as able to recieve this promise. It is to be taken spiritually in the New, the dividing wall has been torn down. God knows no nations in the New, just individuals who are the true Israel under the Abrahamic sense.


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## A5pointer (Apr 15, 2008)

joshua said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> > A5pointer said:
> ...



Agreed, not nations but individuals now. God is saving some from all ethnos. The dividing wall has been torn down. In the old it was Israel distinguished from all others/non Israel. And to the original post it is a specific application to Israel not other nations. However we know that God has actively blinded all who do not come to Him. Unless you prefer the passive description he has not granted "eyes to see" or "ears to hear".


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## Mushroom (Apr 15, 2008)

> In other words,, if a nation makes vows to God (*as our American forefathers did*)


The bolded part could be a debatable assertion.


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## KMK (Apr 15, 2008)

Brad said:


> > In other words,, if a nation makes vows to God (*as our American forefathers did*)
> 
> 
> The bolded part could be a debatable assertion.



Agreed.


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## Leslie (Apr 15, 2008)

Is it not true that all men, by nature are blinded to the gospel? If we are dead in our sins, are we not therefore blind? 

The reverse of blinding is true; God supernaturally causes some people groups to come en masse to Him. I see this in my geographic context--when suddenly groups bitterly opposed to the gospel embrace it due to some dream, vision, or revelation. Then they seek further understanding from the scriptures.


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## KMK (Apr 15, 2008)

Leslie said:


> Is it not true that all men, by nature are blinded to the gospel? If we are dead in our sins, are we not therefore blind?
> 
> The reverse of blinding is true; God supernaturally causes some people groups to come en masse to Him. I see this in my geographic context--when suddenly groups bitterly opposed to the gospel embrace it due to some dream, vision, or revelation. Then they seek further understanding from the scriptures.



This would have been true for Israel as well yet the Bible does say that God blinded them.


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## TimV (Apr 15, 2008)

Still, but the Bible also says God blinded the Egyptians, as you can see from Romans 9.

We've example both before the Christ's death and resurrection and after of nations having had different degrees of understanding, like the Assyrians in Jonah and the Maltese in Acts, so it would, at least arguably, seem to be something not affected by a specific covenant, or other special treatment.

But going into Iraq!!! Even the Russians and French made us seem like blind men in comparison!


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## Iconoclast (Apr 15, 2008)

KMK said:


> I was getting no help when I posted this on a different thread so I thought I would start a new one.
> 
> I have been struggling lately with this issue:
> 
> ...



Kmk, 
This is an interesting question. I think it is not easy to give a simple answer as the first few posts already raise several other issues.

You ask-


> Is the national blindness of Israel a fulfilment of specific prophecy or is it a 'general principle'?


. The verse quoted in Romans 11:9-10 is unquestionably a specific prophecy concerning 1st century National Israel, not just because He quotes from the messianic psalm 69.
The whole context of Romans 9-15 answers the question of national Israel and the promise of God.
In Chapter 10:18-21 the quotes of Psalm 19, Deut 32:21, ISA 65:1 clearly demonstrate that Physical Israel itself, has now become a final -type if you will. The one-new man of Ephesians 2, Jew/Gentile are now the holy nation ,The Israel of God. Because this is now true, I do not believe that God no longer recognizes the nations and Kings of the earth. 
The judgment to come speaks of nations, and the individualsMt 25:32.
1Tim 2:2 tells us that we are to pray for national leaders, that we may live in godliness and peace.
In the OT. physical Israel did have a unique relationship as a nation.Deut 7;6 and Amos 3;2.
They lost that special relationship Isa.5/Mt 21:43.
God is now dealing with The True Israel now.-Jesus The Lord- and those who comprise his body.
God still opens eyes and ears, or closes them as all nations are under His rule Psalm 67.
The post millenial writers are correct about the events of 70 ad. The good amill writers also agree. I am just not certain of how much of the spiritual impacts the physical reign of the King here and now. 



> Is it possible that blessings given to a nation could become a snare to that nation?


Blessings and gifts given to any nation and mis-used,Like Samson's gifts and strengths can also be removed based on how they treat the individual assemblies and the christians in them.
Without any "direct word of knowledge"[ I am not Pat Robertson.] I am personally sure that the tsunamis in the indian ocean was a direct result of muslim persecution of the Christians there.World magazine had put a map containing Muslim countries that persecute christians,and that area of the world was a hot bed of persecution for christian churches and pastors.
One month before the tsunamis,there was an article where it ended with the christians praying for God to intervene on their behalf- you can look this article up on world magazine archives. It mentioned Colombo, Shri Lanka, and all of those coastal towns where they were burning churches. 
The map of the persecution was the exact map where the tsunamis hit.


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## A5pointer (Apr 16, 2008)

Iconoclast said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> > I was getting no help when I posted this on a different thread so I thought I would start a new one.
> ...



I understand where you are coming from but we cannot allow ourselves to think like this. Natural tragedies happen to Christians as well. All good and calamity are at the hand of the Lord. We cannot presume upon God to know why. The secrets are His.


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## MW (Apr 16, 2008)

Rev. 2:5, "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, *and will remove thy candlestick out of his place*, except thou repent."


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## KMK (Apr 16, 2008)

armourbearer said:


> Rev. 2:5, "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, *and will remove thy candlestick out of his place*, except thou repent."



This threatening is directed at a church, of course. Removing the candlestick of the American church is a means of blinding the US?


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## Contra_Mundum (Apr 16, 2008)

I don't see how it could be interpreted any other way.

"Ye are the light of the world..."

I would like to add, though, that "nation" is a term of convenience, a handy division of the "world" into manageable, definable quantities according to some (geographic, linguistic, ethnic, etc.) criteria.


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## Blueridge Believer (Apr 16, 2008)

Psa 67:1 [[To the chief Musician on Neginoth, A Psalm [or] Song.]] God be merciful unto us, and bless us; [and] cause his face to shine upon us; Selah. 
Psa 67:2 That thy way may be known upon earth, thy saving health among all nations. 
Psa 67:3 Let the people praise thee, O God; let all the people praise thee. 
Psa 67:4 O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah. 
Psa 67:5 Let the people praise thee, O God; let all the people praise thee. 
Psa 67:6 [Then] shall the earth yield her increase; [and] God, [even] our own God, shall bless us. 
Psa 67:7 God shall bless us; and all the ends of the earth shall fear him.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 16, 2008)

Ps. 33.12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance. 

Isa. 60.12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

Jer. 18.7-10 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. 

Rev. 21.24, 26 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it....And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

John Winthrop, _A Model of Christian Charity_:



> Thus stands the cause between God and us. We are entered into covenant with Him for this work. We have taken out a commission. The Lord hath given us leave to draw our own articles. We have professed to enterprise these and those accounts, upon these and those ends. We have hereupon besought Him of favor and blessing. Now if the Lord shall please to hear us, and bring us in peace to the place we desire, then hath He ratified this covenant and sealed our commission, and will expect a strict performance of the articles contained in it; but if we shall neglect the observation of these articles which are the ends we have propounded, and, dissembling with our God, shall fall to embrace this present world and prosecute our carnal intentions, seeking great things for ourselves and our posterity, the Lord will surely break out in wrath against us, and be revenged of such a people, and make us know the price of the breach of such a covenant.
> 
> Now the only way to avoid this shipwreck, and to provide for our posterity, is to follow the counsel of Micah, to do justly, to love mercy, to walk humbly with our God. For this end, we must be knit together, in this work, as one man. We must entertain each other in brotherly affection. We must be willing to abridge ourselves of our superfluities, for the supply of others’ necessities. We must uphold a familiar commerce together in all meekness, gentleness, patience and liberality. We must delight in each other; make others’ conditions our own; rejoice together, mourn together, labor and suffer together, always having before our eyes our commission and community in the work, as members of the same body. So shall we keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace. The Lord will be our God, and delight to dwell among us, as His own people, and will command a blessing upon us in all our ways, so that we shall see much more of His wisdom, power, goodness and truth, than formerly we have been acquainted with. We shall find that the God of Israel is among us, when ten of us shall be able to resist a thousand of our enemies; when He shall make us a praise and glory that men shall say of succeeding plantations, "may the Lord make it like that of New England." *For we must consider that we shall be as a city upon a hill. The eyes of all people are upon us. So that if we shall deal falsely with our God in this work we have undertaken, and so cause Him to withdraw His present help from us, we shall be made a story and a by-word through the world. We shall open the mouths of enemies to speak evil of the ways of God, and all professors for God's sake. We shall shame the faces of many of God's worthy servants, and cause their prayers to be turned into curses upon us till we be consumed out of the good land whither we are going. *
> 
> ...


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## MW (Apr 16, 2008)

KMK said:


> armourbearer said:
> 
> 
> > Rev. 2:5, "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, *and will remove thy candlestick out of his place*, except thou repent."
> ...



I concur with the judgment of Bruce, James, and Andrew, and the appropriate Scriptures they have cited. As the church is the means by which God brings light to the world, the removal of the faithful testimony of the church in any location is ipso facto a blinding of that geographical location. The subsequent history of Asia Minor is illustrative of this point.

On the question of "nations," I would state the matter a little more institutionally than Bruce. I acknowledge geographical boundaries as a matter of providential appointment, and State sovereignty as being ordained and administered by Christ, the prince of the kings of the earth. He sets up one and casts down another for the specific purpose of gathering, ruling, and defending His church in the world.


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