# Eating out on the Lord's Day



## Andres (Aug 19, 2012)

Is the following analogy correct or is it reaching too far?

When we go out to eat on the Lord's Day, we are causing others to sin because we are causing them to work unnecessarily. This is akin to hiring a hit-man to carry out a murder. While you may not be sinning directly, you are still playing a role in causing someone else to sin and therefore you are guilty as well. 

I am trying to think along the lines of people who would argue that employees at restaurants "are going to work anyway so it doesn't make a difference if I eat there or not."


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## Pergamum (Aug 19, 2012)

I am not sure the hit-man analogy will gain you any traction with those who differ with you on the Sabbath issue, but might rather encourage them to dismiss your view even more since you have equated lunch with murder.

Maybe a better method might be to focus on loving our neighbor and wishing that they, too, could be part of our wekly fellowship - an impossible thing if they were standing by at the restaurant to serve the huge church crowd as soon as church lets out.


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## OPC'n (Aug 19, 2012)

The 4th does say "On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates"..... so if someone is serving in any manner not related to acts of mercy or need etc then they are acting as servants who should rest.


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## Andres (Aug 19, 2012)

Pergamum said:


> I am not sure the hit-man analogy will gain you any traction with those who differ with you on the Sabbath issue, but might rather encourage them to dismiss your view even more since you have equated lunch with murder.
> 
> Maybe a better method might be to focus on loving our neighbor and wishing that they, too, could be part of our wekly fellowship - an impossible thing if they were standing by at the restaurant to serve the huge church crowd as soon as church lets out.



You're right Perg that one would have to be careful in using this analogy not to offend. In the past, when I have said something along the lines of wishing the waitress at the restaurant could come to church instead of working, I am often countered with, "no, she wants to work, that's why she's there. If she wanted off for church, she would have taken off." This is partly why I am trying to think through a different angle to explain why we shouldn't eat out on the Lord's Day.


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## Andres (Aug 19, 2012)

OPC'n said:


> The 4th does say "On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates"..... so if someone is serving in any manner not related to acts of mercy or need etc then they are acting as servants who should rest.



So would you agree with my analogy? I would take your position Sarah, that the server in a restaurant is sinning by working the unnecessary job on the Lord's Day. But the problem for people I talk to is that even when they buy that position, they don't see their eating there as being sinful since they aren't the one working.


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## py3ak (Aug 19, 2012)

Pergamum said:


> I am not sure the hit-man analogy will gain you any traction with those who differ with you on the Sabbath issue, but might rather encourage them to dismiss your view even more since you have equated lunch with murder.
> 
> Maybe a better method might be to focus on loving our neighbor and wishing that they, too, could be part of our wekly fellowship - an impossible thing if they were standing by at the restaurant to serve the huge church crowd as soon as church lets out.



Lunch is murder, though ... chicken murder!

View attachment 3026


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## Caroline (Aug 19, 2012)

Andres said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > I am not sure the hit-man analogy will gain you any traction with those who differ with you on the Sabbath issue, but might rather encourage them to dismiss your view even more since you have equated lunch with murder.
> ...



I think that it is extremely naive to assume that people who work on Sunday want to work on Sunday, especially low-income people. I had one job when I was a teen that I specifically asked for Sunday off, and they gave it to me.... for two months, and then they told me I had to start working Sundays or lose my job. My husband used to work for the restaurant business, and that restaurant wouldn't even hire someone who said they wouldn't work Sundays.

I'd just say that it is best not to be part of the problem. If it were not for the big after-church crowds, restaurants would be a lot more flexible about letting waiters and waitresses take Sunday off.


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## Edward (Aug 19, 2012)

What if the waitress is Jewish or Muslim (or SDA, for that matter). Does that reduce it to manslaughter?


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## Martin (Aug 19, 2012)

Eating out on the Sabbath is something I have been working over lately so I am interested in this thread.



OPC'n said:


> so if someone is serving in any manner not related to acts of mercy or need etc then they are acting as servants who should rest.



I have a thought as to where do we draw the line? For example, why use electricity? Someone has to be at the plant to monitor the nuclear reactor or the coal and boiler. I would not say electricity would be of necessity. People 100+ years ago would have food preservation methods that did not need electricity ( salt pork, cellars, canning, etc.), wood burning stoves for heat and cooking and such. Just a thought.


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## Caroline (Aug 19, 2012)

Well, electricity may not have been a necessity 100+ years ago. But I do not have a wood burning stove, and I can't remotely afford to have one installed, nor do I think my landlord would allow it. I also do not know any food-preserving techniques. I think electricity is a necessity now. I don't think anyone would argue that children and elderly (or anyone, for that matter) should be left with no heat in zero degree winter weather on the Sabbath, with the risk of freezing to death. Whether we like it or not, times have changed, and people do not have the resources to do without electricity as they used to. Whenever there are power-outages during very hot or very cold weather, there are deaths.

In that sense, I think electricity production is just as much as necessity as medical care (which, incidentally, also depends upon electricity to keep ventilators and other medical equipment going). No one dies from eating at home instead of at Cracker Barrel on Sunday.


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## Martin (Aug 20, 2012)

Caroline said:


> In that sense, I think electricity production is just as much as necessity as medical care (which, incidentally, also depends upon electricity to keep ventilators and other medical equipment going). No one dies from eating at home instead of at Cracker Barrel on Sunday.



I would agree. Hospitals, nursing homes, and such I would think would be a necessity or at least a great act of mercy. As for electricity to homes, for example in 1935 less than one percent of Mississippi’s farms and rural residents had electric power, so to say that it is a necessity would be somewhat a new concept (though I greatly appreciate it during our summers!). So to say that an operator at a plant has to work and miss church to keep the electricity coming to our homes for our comfort is a necessity is not quite correct. It is a modern convenience, and in the history of the world a somewhat new convenience. I know that you cannot leave a nuclear reactor unattended, and I am not necessarily advocating we all become Amish. Just flushing out a thought.


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## Pergamum (Aug 20, 2012)

I think this thread seems not to be about the 4th Commandment itself and its legitimacy, but rather about the best way to promote honor for the Sabbath and how best to convince others of the general doctrine.

As a general principle I have found that people object to defences of the Sabbath which rely upon arguing mainly from OT texts or Isaiah or by focusing on the "can'ts" of the Sabbath. People seem to respond best to pleas based on the general principle that we ought to love our neighbor and provide opportunities and not hindrances for our neighbors to worship God with the assembled saints. 

It also seems best to pre-emptively explain that societies still have aspects which need to function on the Sabbath such that police and nurses and firemen can work and perform acts of mercy and necessity, so that your hearer does not hold onto these things as mental roadblocks to acceptance of the ongoing nature of the Sabbath. I would also avoid advocating civil penalties for Sabbath-breaking lest the hearer is given unecessary reasons to recoil at the doctrine.


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## OPC'n (Aug 20, 2012)

Andres said:


> OPC'n said:
> 
> 
> > The 4th does say "On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates"..... so if someone is serving in any manner not related to acts of mercy or need etc then they are acting as servants who should rest.
> ...



I would agree with your analogy in that they approve of the sins of others and give rise to that sin by eating at the restaurant which Romans 1:32 (Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but *give approval to those who practice them *") condemns. I guess I don't understand their position entirely. Either they believe in the 4th or they don't. They can't have it both ways by cutting it in half and leaving part of it intact for themselves and ridding themselves of the other half when it comes to other ppl. Even when I didn't believe in the Sabbath I never cut the law in half saying I can follow the 4th but I'm not going let others do so. I have to say that would be very selfish indeed to allow rest from their own work to enjoy the Sabbath but not allow rest to others for the studying of God's word or other writings and fellowship with the brethren not to mention they have just sliced and diced God's law and approve of such things in others.

If they don't believe in the 4th, well then you have a whole set of problems on your hands. It took me a long time to believe the 4th was necessary and I still am not the hardcore 4th keeper as maybe some others are. What convinced me of keeping the 4th was John Calvin. As others thought so did I in the past on his softness of the 4th. But he wasn't I just didn't understand him rightly at the time, bc I was so focused on proving the 4th was no longer valid physically and it was a spiritual rest from our works. What I did see in his writings at the time that did convince and maybe will help your friends is this: (remember this is what I thought back a few years ago)... "he didn't really care if ppl wanted to make Sundays the Sabbath bc taking at least one day to do nothing but spend time in church and dedicating oneself to the things of God was the most profitable thing to do for oneself and to not keep others from doing such things." And so I slowly came around to keeping the 4th on such an idea. What a wonderful concept it would be to devote one day completely to God and to allow others the same benefit. It rang true to my heart even though my mind continued to reject that it was called the Sabbath. After sometime I eventually just accepted the Sabbath as being such and not too long ago my pastor gave the best reason why the Sabbath day was changed from Sat to Sun. It use to be Sun because God rested from his work after working six days and commanded that we mimic his actions. Then it changed to Sun bc Christ died and rose again bringing in a new era where we rest from our work right out of the horse gait without ever starting to work for salvation and rest in his work (of course, my pastor said it much better than i just have)...BAM! It connected with me finally bc it was the change of days that kept tripping me up. OK I've gotten off topic. ahem...

I would ask them this: "What about the Sabbath do you (that is your friend) believe or not believe or how would you define the Sabbath?" Allow them to state their position so that they can see from their own words how flawed their view on the Sabbath really is when you do explain it to them. Then I would ask them why they want to go out to eat on the Sabbath. Is it to have fellowship with the brethren? If so, what a better way of showing love through action than to prepare a home cooked meal for those same brethren in an atmosphere of quietness where they can enjoy each in Christ? If it is more a cultural thing as it is in the south, then maybe show them God's law prevails over culture. If it is just a treat, encourage them to treat themselves on another day. They may have an entirely different reason for doing it which you'll have to address. However, it all comes down to "are you making the Sabbath God-centered or self-centered?"


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## Pergamum (Aug 20, 2012)

OPC'n said:


> Andres said:
> 
> 
> > OPC'n said:
> ...



OPC'in:

You wrote:



> Either they believe in the 4th or they don't



I would suggest that the issue is more complicated than that. 

One can believe that the 4th commandment abides forever and is part of the moral alw which will never be abrogated and still disagree about how one ought to apply Sabbath-keeping.


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## OPC'n (Aug 20, 2012)

Pergamum said:


> OPC'in:
> 
> You wrote:
> 
> ...



I agree but I would see that as more of a list of do's and don'ts'. It sounds like his friends affirm parts of the law in that they will not work themselves (the first part of the law), but don't affirm the second part of the law (servants should rest too) and also help others to break the law by not allowing their fellow man to rest. That type of behavior isn't a matter of how one should keep the Sabbath, but instead, it is actually breaking the law and allowing others to break the law. Running a restaurant isn't an act of mercy or need etc period. The saying "Well they will work whether I come here or not" is not a valid argument in any form. Even though we cannot control the actions of others, going out to eat on the Sabbath makes you a law breaker in two manners: you are not allowing others the opportunity to rest and you are giving approval to their law breaking.


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## Pergamum (Aug 20, 2012)

Sarah,

Like I have said before, the route of charging one with law-breaking seems not as effective in gaining love for the Sabbath as appealing to love towards fellow man and enabling others to worship with us.


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## OPC'n (Aug 20, 2012)

Pergamum said:


> Sarah,
> 
> Like I have said before, the route of charging one with law-breaking seems not as effective in gaining love for the Sabbath as appealing to love towards fellow man and enabling others to worship with us.



Can you explain what you mean by "as appealing to love towards fellow man" in regards to the Sabbath before I comment?


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## OPC'n (Aug 20, 2012)

Pergamum said:


> Sarah,
> 
> Like I have said before, the route of charging one with law-breaking seems not as effective in gaining love for the Sabbath as appealing to love towards fellow man and enabling others to worship with us.



Ok, I kept rereading what you said and I think I know what you mean. I don't think one can show love towards another person by not showing how they are breaking the law. I don't believe that's a loving thing to do. You would have never won me over to Sabbath keeping by just showing me love. It was everyone around me telling me how I was breaking the law and then telling me the joys of keep the Sabbath and the grace that God extends towards us in keeping the Sabbath bc we all break all the laws all the time (and my own trying to disprove the Sabbath) that was the instrument that God used to change my heart.


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## Peairtach (Aug 20, 2012)

With a bit of forethought, and buying enough food on the six days, there is no necessity to eat out on the Sabbath.

Electricity is a different matter. If it wasn't for electricity supplied from power stations - and everyone had their own generator - there would be _more_ work to do on the Sabbath.

*Pergy*


> I would also avoid advocating civil penalties for Sabbath-breaking lest the hearer is given unecessary reasons to recoil at the doctrine.



The reason that the death penalty was attached to presumptuous Sabbath breaking under Moses - _in the context_ the man collecting sticks on the Sabbath _was_ being presumptuous, but such behaviour would not be presumptuous today - was to teach the Israelites that without a sacrifice for sin there was no remission of sins. Under the Mosaic ceremonial law, being a shadow, there was no typological expiatory sacrifice for presumptuous sins.

People like kings David and Manasseh, who committed offences for which there was no typological expiatory sacrifice, had to not just look _through_ the types to Christ, but _beyond_ the types to Christ.

See e.g. Patrick Fairbairn "The Sin Offering" in his "Typology of Scripture", and e.g. Roy Gane's commentary on Numbers: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Leviticus-N...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1345457839&sr=1-1

In a modern Christian society there would possibly be heavy fines for opening shop, workplace or restaurant on the Lord's Day.

There should also be church sanctions where there is presumptuous Sabbath-breaking today.


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## J. Dean (Aug 20, 2012)

Andres said:


> Is the following analogy correct or is it reaching too far?
> 
> When we go out to eat on the Lord's Day, we are causing others to sin because we are causing them to work unnecessarily. This is akin to hiring a hit-man to carry out a murder. While you may not be sinning directly, you are still playing a role in causing someone else to sin and therefore you are guilty as well.
> 
> I am trying to think along the lines of people who would argue that employees at restaurants "are going to work anyway so it doesn't make a difference if I eat there or not."


Depends on your view of the Sabbath. Since not all Christians (even among the Reformed) are not convinced that Sunday is to be treated as the Sabbath (like me-see Colossians 2:16, among other Scriptural reason), we believe that it isn't a sin.


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## Elizabeth (Aug 20, 2012)

"Depends on your view of the Sabbath."

For certain. What I find odd are the folks who say ''no eating out'', but will watch TV on the Sabbath. Surely partaking of TV causes many more people to work than stopping by a diner for lunch after services.


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## Tim (Aug 20, 2012)

J. Dean said:


> Depends on your view of the Sabbath. Since not all Christians (even among the Reformed) are not convinced that Sunday is to be treated as the Sabbath (like me-see Colossians 2:16, among other Scriptural reason), we believe that it isn't a sin.



But this is a confessional board, so I would ask that you not promote a view contrary to the confessions.


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## OPC'n (Aug 20, 2012)

Elizabeth said:


> "Depends on your view of the Sabbath."
> 
> For certain. What I find odd are the folks who say ''no eating out'', but will watch TV on the Sabbath. Surely partaking of TV causes many more people to work than stopping by a diner for lunch after services.



I don't watch tv on the Sabbath only bc it's a time I dedicate to God and his ppl


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## Galatians220 (Aug 20, 2012)

What if people are members of a church 140 miles from home and regularly attend a morning and a mid-afternoon service at that church, and what if usually, they pack a lunch for themselves to eat between services (and they also pack their Christian books, for they will have a couple of hours on their own), or they are invited to someone's home for lunch - but sometimes, this just doesn't pan out? When the weather is not conducive to sitting in one's car for two or two and a half hours because it's either well below freezing or extremely hot, and - at least I - have a severe aversion to inviting myself to someone's home for lunch, then what is it proper to do? This presents a real problem on occasion...


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## OPC'n (Aug 20, 2012)

J. Dean said:


> Andres said:
> 
> 
> > Is the following analogy correct or is it reaching too far?
> ...



I used to use this Scripture as one of my strongest, supportive Scripture to deny the Sabbath, but you look at the rest of Scripture and also this Scripture closely, it doesn't support it. I did months and months and months of studying on it using different theologians and found it in the end to not work. For one, if you take the whole of Col 2, you see that the is speaking of "holidays" or festivals" and ceremonial washings etc and that is why it says "a" Sabbath and not "The" Sabbath. I went through ALL of the OT Scripture concerning EVERY Sabbath to prove it was The Sabbath and it just isn't.


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## OPC'n (Aug 20, 2012)

Galatians220 said:


> What if people are members of a church 140 miles from home and regularly attend a morning and a mid-afternoon service at that church, and what if usually, they pack a lunch for themselves to eat between services (and they also pack their Christian books, for they will have a couple of hours on their own), or they are invited to someone's home for lunch - but sometimes, this just doesn't pan out? When the weather is not conducive to sitting in one's car for two or two and a half hours because it's either well below freezing or extremely hot, and - at least I - have a severe aversion to inviting myself to someone's home for lunch, then what is it proper to do? This presents a real problem on occasion...



I have a HUGE HUGE aversion to inviting myself to ppl's homes bc of my pride, but I would do it if I had to even though it's a hard task indeed! However, I would have a hard time thinking that the pastor wouldn't be extremely happy to have you over to his home EVERY Sunday if needed. I would also think (we would at our church) that he would talk to the congregation about your need. It's what the church does and it's our joyful duty to God and his ppl.


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## Rich Koster (Aug 20, 2012)

I believe we should look at the "work of necessity" clause in the confessions. In our convenience driven society, we blur the line of what is a necessity and convenience. To eat and drink on Sunday is a necessity. To have a four course dinner served to you because you think you deserve it, is not. Sometimes, or should I say most of the time we can prepare some eats in advance. Sometimes we have to deal with the unexpected. Let conscience make your decision, not convenience.


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## Tim (Aug 20, 2012)

OPC'n said:


> I have a HUGE HUGE aversion to inviting myself to ppl's homes bc of my pride, but I would do it if I had to even though it's a hard task indeed! However, I would have a hard time thinking that the pastor wouldn't be extremely happy to have you over to his home EVERY Sunday if needed. I would also think (we would at our church) that he would talk to the congregation about your need. It's what the church does and it's our joyful duty to God and his ppl.



When I attended the OPC church in Birmingham, AL, my drive was 55 miles each way. The people were so very good to me and one other man who lived in my area. We always had a place to go for lunch. I will likely remember this hospitality as long as I live.

However, some congregations don't seem to do this as well. I am not exactly sure how this can be encouraged if you are not in a position to be an example yourself. What I mean is that a college student may understand the value of hospitality, and wish to be hospitable in this way, but can't very well host a family in his college dorm room* so that he can set the example for others. 

Example is often the best way to learn these matters. Some congregations set this example; some don't so much. We need to be working toward a congregational culture of Sabbath fellowship at homes, rather than Sabbath fellowship at restaurants.

*I was only using this to make the point. It would be unwise to live in a college dorm, in my opinion.


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## Tim (Aug 20, 2012)

Rich Koster said:


> I believe we should look at the "work of necessity" clause in the confessions. In our convenience driven society, we blur the line of what is a necessity and convenience. To eat and drink on Sunday is a necessity. To have a four course dinner served to you because you think you deserve it, is not. Sometimes, or should I say most of the time we can prepare some eats in advance. Sometimes we have to deal with the unexpected. Let conscience make your decision, not convenience.



Yes. And I would say that addressing matters in the way you have articulated would eliminate 98% of these instances. We can discuss the unexpected and extraordinary 2% to see if they fall under mercy and necessity.


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## OPC'n (Aug 20, 2012)

Tim said:


> OPC'n said:
> 
> 
> > I have a HUGE HUGE aversion to inviting myself to ppl's homes bc of my pride, but I would do it if I had to even though it's a hard task indeed! However, I would have a hard time thinking that the pastor wouldn't be extremely happy to have you over to his home EVERY Sunday if needed. I would also think (we would at our church) that he would talk to the congregation about your need. It's what the church does and it's our joyful duty to God and his ppl.
> ...



I'm assuming she's going to a reformed church where they practice the Sabbath and her pastor would encourage her to do so. I assumed this bc of her interest in how to make it work. I guess only she can say whether or not she does. I dont think it does anyone any justice for Sabbath keepers to come up with "what if's" unless it is an actual problem to solve, don't you agree?


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## Tim (Aug 20, 2012)

Yes, there are plenty of challenges already.


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## Scott1 (Aug 20, 2012)

> Westminster Confession of Faith
> 
> Chapter XXI
> Of Religious Worship, and the Sabbath Day
> ...





> Scripture proofs
> 
> [38] EXO 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. EXO 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the Lord: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. 25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the Lord: to day ye shall not find it in the field. 26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none. 29 See, for that the Lord hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. 30 So the people rested on the seventh day. EXO 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. ISA 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words. NEH 13:15 In those days saw I in Judah some treading wine presses on the sabbath, and bringing in sheaves, and lading asses; as also wine, grapes, and figs, and all manner of burdens, which they brought into Jerusalem on the sabbath day: and I testified against them in the day wherein they sold victuals. 16 There dwelt men of Tyre also therein, which brought fish, and all manner of ware, and sold on the sabbath unto the children of Judah, and in Jerusalem. 17 Then I contended with the nobles of Judah, and said unto them, What evil thing is this that ye do, and profane the sabbath day? 18 Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city? yet ye bring more wrath upon Israel by profaning the sabbath. 19 And it came to pass, that when the gates of Jerusalem began to be dark before the sabbath, I commanded that the gates should be shut, and charged that they should not be opened till after the sabbath: and some of my servants set I at the gates, that there should no burden be brought in on the sabbath day. 21 Then I testified against them, and said unto them, Why lodge ye about the wall? if ye do so again, I will lay hands on you. From that time forth came they no more on the sabbath. 22 And I commanded the Levites that they should cleanse themselves, and that they should come and keep the gates, to sanctify the sabbath day. Remember me, O my God, concerning this also, and spare me according to the greatness of thy mercy.
> 
> [39] ISA 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words.



The London Baptist Confession summarizes the doctrine of Scripture almost identically.

As for the analogy used (related to hiring a "hit man"), that's probably not an analogy to use for several reasons.

Remember, God's fourth commandment requires a pattern of work six days, rest one day in order to prioritize the worship of God that day.

By eating out in restaurants you create demand to work for your convenience on the Lord's Day. You also hinder the employees, and even indirectly the shareholders of the business, from worshipping that whole day. For the person eating out, it tends to hinder them from worship because they are in a commerce or entertainment atmosphere with all the distractions of that kind of transaction.

While we do not want to base obedience based on our perceived practicality, breaking the pattern of unending work and play helps us "remember," as the Westminster Larger Catechism summarizes, helps us to obey the other nine commandments better. 

This all comports with the "holiness" (set aside nature of the day).



> Westminster Larger Catechism
> *[emphasis added]*
> 
> Q. 121. Why is the word Remember set in the beginning of the fourth commandment?
> ...



Advance preparation so that one might keep the sabbath without undue hindrance removes the need to eat meals out in restaurants in all but the most exceptional situations.


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## Scott1 (Aug 20, 2012)

Eric said:


> Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > In that sense, I think electricity production is just as much as necessity as medical care (which, incidentally, also depends upon electricity to keep ventilators and other medical equipment going). No one dies from eating at home instead of at Cracker Barrel on Sunday.
> ...



Eric,

This is a topic and line of reasoning that has been discussed at length in previous threads, you may find helpful the "advanced search" feature (upper right).

And they are good initial questions, but only preliminary and incomplete ones.

Consider that in the hospital, many workers still try to get weekends off. Elective surgery doesn't happen much because doctors want Saturday and Sunday off. So even "working at a hospital," does not mean _the work there itself is necessary to be done at that time_ (Sunday), which is the test for "necessity" related to the fourth commandment.

In order to obey our holy God, our analysis does not stop there. How can a believer worship all day if they are working. Not only are they not "sabbathing" (ceasing from ordinary work and play), but they are not "making holy" (setting apart) the day for worshipping corporately, in family or individually because they have to work. Yes, it's theoretically possible they could try to worship on their other day off, e.g. Wednesday but one of the reason God commanded sabbath was for _a common time for His people, worldwide, to worship Him_, and that all day.


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## Galatians220 (Aug 20, 2012)

Thank you, Sarah. Yes, I'm speaking of a really Reformed church at which eating out on Sunday is very much frowned upon. People have said to us, "Please let us know when you're next coming here so we can have you over for lunch." However, my mother left a very strong impression on me: "You don't invite yourself to people's homes!" I do not like to impose on people (my husband has a bit less of an aversion to that than I do). Sometimes, due to health issues, I've gone to the distant church dead tired and all I'd like to do is sleep in the car between services. Whatever. When the weather is bad and no one has invited us to their home between services, we have occasionally gone to an omelet restaurant where at least we can sit for an hour or so. As we go to this church more often, though, I'm finding that people recognize us and - as happened yesterday - we have our pick among three or four families who invite us for lunch. I've hit also on the idea of bringing along a hostess gift of an addition to a meal, which makes me feel less like a _shnorrer_ (Yiddish; "artful beggar"). This was the right thing to do yesterday, as we had lunch with a lovely family. If we don't get invited somewhere, I can just take the hostess gift to work, where my co-workers will "take care of it..."  

Although we had the "hospitality thing down" at our own home when we had our church plant effort for three years, it's difficult to be on the receiving end when you know there's little chance that you'll be able to reciprocate the kindnesses of absolutely everyone who hosts you.


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## Andres (Aug 20, 2012)

Thank you friends. You have given me much wisdom on this issue.


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## Andres (Aug 20, 2012)

Galatians220 said:


> People have said to us, "Please let us know when you're next coming here so we can have you over for lunch." However, my mother left a very strong impression on me: "You don't invite yourself to people's homes!" I do not like to impose on people



I don't see this is an imposition at all. I think you are being invited!


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## kodos (Aug 20, 2012)

J. Dean said:


> Depends on your view of the Sabbath. Since not all Christians (even among the Reformed) are not convinced that Sunday is to be treated as the Sabbath (like me-see Colossians 2:16, among other Scriptural reason), we believe that it isn't a sin.



Not according to our Confessions, brother 

I will say this for my family: bringing our lives here into conformance with the Divinely Mandated (4th commandment, it's part of the Moral Law) dictate to Rest and keep the day Holy has brought such tremendous blessings into our lives. While there was hesitance at first in the household to take such a firm stance (and by no means are we perfect in our application) it has been a huge blessing to us.

It really has become a foretaste of the sweet communion we will have with other believers and with our Lord on that day when He takes us to our eternal rest. More and more it has become a tangible picture of how glorious our rest will be with our Lord. I cannot go back!


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## Scott1 (Aug 20, 2012)

Caroline said:


> I think that it is extremely naive to assume that people who work on Sunday want to work on Sunday, especially low-income people. I had one job when I was a teen that I specifically asked for Sunday off, and they gave it to me.... for two months, and then they told me I had to start working Sundays or lose my job. My husband used to work for the restaurant business, and that restaurant wouldn't even hire someone who said they wouldn't work Sundays.



We could take this reasoning and apply it to other forms of disobedience to God. E.g. Most people who steal candy don't want to do that at the candy store, but they are hungry, etc.

But for God's people, the question is obedience and faith.

Are we willing to suffer inconvenience to obey our Holy God? Might we even lose a job because of it? Or is the Christian life about pre-eminence of avoiding difficulty at all times?

And remember the element of faith.

God has not promised us ease or lives without difficulty. That certainly was not the pattern of the prophets or apostles, or our Lord. He has not promised us material prosperity,
but He has promised to provide for our basic needs.

We need to seek to obey and trust Him for that, including on Sundays when we set apart the time for common worship, all day, to the end of His Honor and His Glory.


This reasoning is in line with the biblical principle, creating demand for our convenience:


> I'd just say that it is best not to be part of the problem. If it were not for the big after-church crowds, restaurants would be a lot more flexible about letting waiters and waitresses take Sunday off.


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## Constantlyreforming (Aug 20, 2012)

The closest thing to "fast food" in scripture that we have an example of, in my opinion, is when God provided manna to the Israelites. What was his command to the Israelites on Saturday, in preparation for Sunday?


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## Caroline (Aug 20, 2012)

Scott, my entire point was that people ARE forcing others to work on Sunday by going out to eat on Sunday, and that they should not do that. Restaurants are jobs for low-income people who are not in much position to say what days they work, and it is improper to put them in a position of being forced to work Sundays. As for whether it is an 'inconvenience' to lose a job when you are very poor, I'm not sure I should say too much lest my wrath overflow. I DID lose that job after a few weeks because buses didn't run on Sunday, and I could not get to work and had trouble finding a ride. I ended up as a seventeen-year-old homeless and extremely vulnerable. When you have not eaten for three days, believe me, you will work on Sunday if you can.

I believe in honoring the Sabbath, but I also believe in compassion. Platitudes about how "God will provide" when someone is extremely poor are the equivalent of saying to someone that they should go in peace and keep warm and well fed, while doing nothing practical to help them. And, in fact, the entire reason that I believe people should NOT go out to eat on Sunday is that, by their actions, they are forcing poor people to work on Sunday. There would not be the pressure from employers for people to work Sundays in order to remain employed if not for the wealthier people (who mostly already have jobs that allow them weekends off) demanding to be fed at a restaurant after church on Sunday. I believe it is an abuse of wealth and privilege to go out to restaurants on Sunday. I can say for certain that any of those days that I worked on Sunday as a homeless teen, I would have been at church if I hadn't been forced to work in order to keep my job. And eventually, I lost my job (and so also my apartment) when I couldn't work on Sunday, which led to far bigger problems.


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## Scott1 (Aug 20, 2012)

Caroline said:


> I believe in honoring the Sabbath, but I also believe in compassion.


God has not set these two in opposition to one another.

It's not a choice of honoring the sabbath verses being compassionate.

That's not the question.

In the past generation, businesses of all sorts routinely closed on the Lord's Day. 

Somehow, people of all means got by.

They got by in Israel, too, even when they could not grow any crops while wandering in the desert, etc.

God's people live by faith.


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## py3ak (Aug 20, 2012)

Amen, Caroline! Let's be sure to place the blame where it properly lies. The 4th Commandment tells *US* that our manservant should not do any work; while the manservant certainly has responsibility for the worshipful frame of his own heart, the Bible understands that the servants of men are not always at liberty.


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## Scottish Lass (Aug 20, 2012)

We have a family that travels about ninety minutes to worship with us, and they have four kids (including an infant). They were packing sandwiches and eating on the way home, so now we have a few families who stay after church and eat together. We still have monthly fellowship dinners where we fix big meals, but the other weeks we just hang out and have a simple meal together and let the kids run around together while we fellowship. We realized that it's actually less trouble than going home separately and many of us actually eat earlier this way (good for the little ones).


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## AThornquist (Aug 20, 2012)

Elizabeth said:


> "Depends on your view of the Sabbath."
> 
> For certain. What I find odd are the folks who say ''no eating out'', but *will watch TV on the Sabbath*. Surely partaking of TV causes many more people to work than stopping by a diner for lunch after services.



Or will use the internet.


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## Galatians220 (Aug 20, 2012)

Often we use the internet on the Sabbath to watch one or more of the three services at the distant church as it/they occur, especially if there's only one service being held locally, or if there's a huge ice or snowstorm going on...  When the minister prays for "those who are viewing us online," we are cheered because we know they know that we're probably among them.


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## davenporter (Aug 20, 2012)

I think the use of the internet should follow the "acts of mercy / necessity" exception.

By using the internet on a Sunday, you're not causing anyone to work who wouldn't be otherwise... all the servers are going to be on anyway. I think it depends on what you're doing on the internet on a Sunday.

As for me, on a Sabbath, I stay off of Facebook and I keep my regular computers off because for me that's a distraction from the Lord, but I often use my phone to look things up on dictionary.com or Logos or an online bible if I need to access a passage quickly. I see nothing wrong with that, as it helps me to focus on the Lord and understand the sermon or study of His Word better. I think the internet argument is very similar to the electricity argument. Watching a sermon online would, I think, be in the spirit of the Sabbath, and (I believe) not force anyone to work unnecessarily -- at least not any more than electricity.

Of course, watching the olympics or the superbowl on the internet on Sunday is the same problem as watching TV on Sunday. Not to mention it goes against our Presbyterian Confession. =)


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## Andres (Aug 20, 2012)

I use the internet on the Lord's Day as well. Yesterday I listened to two sermons along with the Whitehorse Inn. I also use the internet to upload our pastor's sermon. Does my using the internet cause people to work? I guess I've never given it much thought, but right now my conscience is clear on the internet issue.


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## AThornquist (Aug 20, 2012)

davenporter said:


> By using the internet on a Sunday, you're not causing anyone to work who wouldn't be otherwise... all the servers are going to be on anyway. I think it depends on what you're doing on the internet on a Sunday.



The point in bringing up the internet is that when one says, "you're not causing anyone to work who wouldn't be otherwise," one is using the exact reasoning that folks use when they go out for a meal on Sunday. And I don't say that to bind anyone's conscience on using the internet but rather to point out a subtle double-standard that some people have with regard to proper activities for the Lord's Day. Can't fellowship meals at a restaurant be for spiritual good as well? Can't we talk about the sermon or the good things of the Lord while we eat? Of course we can, much like how you can use the internet in profitable ways on Sunday even though other people must work to maintain servers, provide customer service, etc. for internet users. I appreciate the effort brothers and sisters make to defend the proper use of the Lord's Day, but sometimes it is difficult to take certain hardline standards seriously (e.g., absolutely no eating out on Sunday) when other activities that demand people to work on Sunday are justified (e.g, using the internet); it just doesn't seem consistent to me.


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## Pilgrim72 (Aug 20, 2012)

I already know where I stand on this issue. Just wondering where some of you do in regard to this situation:

I travel a lot for my job, and am given a per diem that I need to spend daily on food. 

So, I would say that I do eat out on Sundays when I am on business travel.


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## Tim (Aug 20, 2012)

AThornquist said:


> when other activities that demand people to work on Sunday are justified



Does visiting a website require someone to work? I am not sure that it does.


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## davenporter (Aug 20, 2012)

AThornquist said:


> how you can use the internet in profitable ways on Sunday even though other people must work to maintain servers, provide customer service, etc. for internet users.



They don't need to do any of that on Sundays. Obviously, Christians wouldn't call for customer service on a Sabbath for the same reason they wouldn't go out to eat. Server maintenance can be (and probably is) done on other days. All that the servers need to do is be on, so no work is required. If I had my own server at my house hosting a website, I wouldn't need to touch it on Sunday, it would just be "on". I have no requirement to make my computer rest, especially if that server hosts sermons that other Christians could find beneficial on the Sabbath.


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## Dwimble (Aug 20, 2012)

Tim said:


> Does visiting a website require someone to work? I am not sure that it does.


Unfortunately, yes. Because inevitably the web server, file server, email server, etc. will have a problem or go down, and when it does then someone has to fix it or get it back up. I have personally had to do this quite a number of times over the years. There are two system admins at our company who get automated text messages whenever there are server problems, regardless of the day or time. If no one used the services on Sunday then these problems would never occur.

To further complicate matters, looking at things from a global perspective (as we have to at our company), all day Saturday it is either Friday or Sunday somewhere else in the world, and on Sunday it is Saturday or Monday elsewhere.


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## kodos (Aug 20, 2012)

davenporter said:


> AThornquist said:
> 
> 
> > how you can use the internet in profitable ways on Sunday even though other people must work to maintain servers, provide customer service, etc. for internet users.
> ...



Exactly. If a website is down or my connection is not working I am not going to be calling up my Internet provider on the Lord's Day. Watching TV for the purposes of recreation is forbidden at our house on Sundays, but using the Internet is for doing spiritual correspondence or doing Biblical research. At the very least we can have a debate about this from the standpoint of the 4th commandment. Only however if we agree that we should not force others to serve us on the Lord's Day. A charge of hypocrisy isn't enough to advocate wholesale violation of our Confessions and God's Law!

Eating out is forcing someone else to directly serve you. And should be avoided except in cases of mercy or real necessity. 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## OPC'n (Aug 20, 2012)

Dwimble said:


> Tim said:
> 
> 
> > Does visiting a website require someone to work? I am not sure that it does.
> ...



However, in my experience in having servers I never had to do anything to them everyday. Servers such as PB or Wordpress etc do not need that type of attention normally and those are the type most of us would visit to "fellowship" with the brethren and read posts concerning the things of God. I'm sure there are other servers such as ones that sell things that need the attention you mentioned, but even B&H Photo (a Jewish camera online store) closes down on Sat and you can't buy or email etc (well you can email but no one is going to email you back till Sun) and they are a very large store.


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## AThornquist (Aug 20, 2012)

So Rom, the issue is "direct" service? It's true that going to some websites is not _directly_ forcing someone to serve you directly like a waiter might serve you at a restaurant. Nevertheless, the fact remains that people are on shift at your ISP because people are using the internet, whether or not the service is "direct." If the mass of internet users stopped using the internet on Sundays, there may not be (as many) people on shift, just like how if the mass of customers stopped going to a restaurant on Sunday the restaurant would not have (as many) people on shift. Besides, once we enter this direct vs. indirect service talk the door is opened to allow self-service restaurants. 
...All I'm saying is, if we are going to say that we should not do X because when people do X people are caused to work, we should at least be conscientious to apply it consistently. I'm not accusing anyone of intentionally applying it inconsistently, though I am comfortable saying that we all unwittingly apply it inconsistently in degree or another.


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## Rich Koster (Aug 20, 2012)

AThornquist said:


> I'm not accusing anyone of intentionally applying it inconsistently, though I am comfortable saying that we all unwittingly apply it inconsistently in degree or another.



You are being inconsistent 

The main thing is that we prepare ourselves as best as we can in order to honor the day. We can take this to extremes and say don't answer the phone on the Lord's day.


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## jwithnell (Aug 20, 2012)

One point that hasn't been brought out clearly: God's law doesn't become binding when someone is converted. It is binding on all men in all time. It is binding on those who are breaking the sabbath and we should not assist in this by giving them our business.

I realize there are times when someone is pushed into a difficult situation because of his work and those situations should be considered individually and carefully. We have someone in our church who often has to work on Sunday because he lost all his retirement in one of those big dot-com company failures and his parachute was a company that gives no flexibility on Sundays. Like first-century Christians, we live in a society that has no respect for God's law. 



> can't very well host a family in his college dorm room* so that he can set the example for others.


 Actually, I did  We had a kitchen in the common area downstairs.



> The closest thing to "fast food" in scripture that we have an example of, in my opinion, is when God provided manna to the Israelites.


You wanna super-size that manna meal?


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## Tyrese (Aug 20, 2012)

I think Tim Conway from I'll be honest has some really solid imput on the Sabbath issue. You can watch it here http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W4p9R-0PPW8.


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## nicnap (Aug 20, 2012)

Tyrese said:


> I think Tim Conway from I'll be honest has some really solid imput on the Sabbath issue. You can watch it here http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W4p9R-0PPW8.



Tyrese, that is not solid input. It is unbiblical and contra-confessional. 

WCF21.7: As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him: which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day, and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.

Larger Catechism concerning the fourth commandment:

Q. 115. Which is the fourth commandment?

A. The fourth commandment is, Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work; but the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested in the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath-day and hallowed it.

Q. 116. What is required in the fourth commandment?

A. The fourth commandment requireth of all men the sanctifying or keeping holy to God such set times as he hath appointed in his Word, expressly one whole day in seven; which was the seventh from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, and the first day of the week ever since, and so to continue to the end of the world; which is the Christian sabbath, and in the New Testament called The Lord’s day.

Q. 117. How is the sabbath or the Lord’s day to be sanctified?

A. The sabbath or Lord’s day is to be sanctified by an holy resting all the day,not only from such works as are at all times sinful, but even from such worldly employments and recreations as are on other days lawful; and making it our delight to spend the whole time (except so much of it as is to be taken up in works of necessity and mercy) in the public and private exercises of God’s worship:and, to that end, we are to prepare our hearts, and with such foresight, diligence, and moderation, to dispose and seasonably dispatch our worldly business, that we may be the more free and fit for the duties of that day.

Q. 118. Why is the charge of keeping the sabbath more specially directed to governors of families, and other superiors?

A. The charge of keeping the sabbath is more specially directed to governors of families, and other superiors, because they are bound not only to keep it themselves, but to see that it be observed by all those that are under their charge; and because they are prone ofttimes to hinder them by employments of their own.

Q. 119. What are the sins forbidden in the fourth commandment?

A. The sins forbidden in the fourth commandment are, all omissions of the duties required, all careless, negligent, and unprofitable performing of them, and being weary of them; all profaning the day by idleness, and doing that which is in itself sinful; and by all needless works, words, and thoughts, about our worldly employments and recreations.

Q. 120. What are the reasons annexed to the fourth commandment, the more to enforce it?

A. The reasons annexed to the fourth commandment, the more to enforce it, are taken from the equity of it, God allowing us six days of seven for our own affairs, and reserving but one for himself in these words, Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: from God’s challenging a special propriety in that day, The seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: from the example of God, who in six days made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: and from that blessing which God put upon that day, not only in sanctifying it to be a day for his service, but in ordaining it to be a means of blessing to us in our sanctifying it; Wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Q. 121. Why is the word Remember set in the beginning of the fourth commandment?

A. The word Remember is set in the beginning of the fourth commandment, partly, because of the great benefit of remembering it, we being thereby helped in our preparation to keep it, and, in keeping it, better to keep all the rest of the commandments, and to continue a thankful remembrance of the two great benefits of creation and redemption, which contain a short abridgment of religion; and partly, because we are very ready to forget it, for that there is less light of nature for it, and yet it restraineth our natural liberty in things at other times lawful; that it cometh but once in seven days, and many worldly businesses come between, and too often take off our minds from thinking of it, either to prepare for it, or to sanctify it; and that Satan with his instruments labours much to blot out the glory, and even the memory of it, to bring in all irreligion and impiety.


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## kodos (Aug 20, 2012)

AThornquist said:


> So Rom, the issue is "direct" service? It's true that going to some websites is not _directly_ forcing someone to serve you directly like a waiter might serve you at a restaurant. Nevertheless, the fact remains that people are on shift at your ISP because people are using the internet, whether or not the service is "direct." If the mass of internet users stopped using the internet on Sundays, there may not be (as many) people on shift, just like how if the mass of customers stopped going to a restaurant on Sunday the restaurant would not have (as many) people on shift. Besides, once we enter this direct vs. indirect service talk the door is opened to allow self-service restaurants.
> ...All I'm saying is, if we are going to say that we should not do X because when people do X people are caused to work, we should at least be conscientious to apply it consistently. I'm not accusing anyone of intentionally applying it inconsistently, though I am comfortable saying that we all unwittingly apply it inconsistently in degree or another.



All I'm saying is this: we can perhaps have this as a discussion of application. I am even willing to consider dropping Internet usage totally - I'll be honest, my traffic is minimal and mostly has to do with Logos usage and occasionally checking the PB. That's it!

The amount of traffic is a mere trickle. In essence, I am probably using a MB or two of traffic compared to the hundreds of MB on other days. If all Christians lowered their internet usage then yes, we would have an impact on ISPs staffing. Same with electricity. If Christians spent most of their day in devotionals and fellowship and not on TV we may even lower our energy usage 

However, having a waiter and a cook serve you while eating out is a pretty *blatant* violation of the 4th unless it was due to necessity or mercy. I cannot see how we can miss that. Charges of inconsistency or not. 

I would challenge ourselves - why not *start* to reform our lives instead of throwing up our hands, and pointing out inconsistencies here and there in others. The Lord knows we cannot be perfect in this life, but why stop trying to reform? 

It's sort of akin to - well, I'm going to sin anyway, so why stop going to the strip bar - I'll see a copy of Vogue in the supermarket and I'll just have lustful thoughts anyhow.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## AThornquist (Aug 20, 2012)

Rich Koster said:


> AThornquist said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not accusing anyone of intentionally applying it inconsistently, though I am comfortable saying that we all unwittingly apply it inconsistently in degree or another.
> ...



Naturally.


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## Tyrese (Aug 20, 2012)

@ Nicnap. I agree that its not a confessional position, but you failed to show me how it's unbiblical. I spent a year going back and forth on this issue and to this day I still havnt found the Christian sabbath in the Bible. I see the Lords day, and I see principle as to what we should be doing on the Lords day. But with respect, no Christian sabbath. My church holds the sabbatarian view and I completly respect their position. Perhaps In the future I will better understand the sabbath. As of right now I think Tim Conway has given the most consistent explanation using the New Testament.


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## Martin (Aug 20, 2012)

Eating at a restaurant or using the internet on Sunday no matter how small still requires electricity, which requires someone at the plant to monitor the generators which makes him/her a Sabbath breaker. I think the only way to be consistent is on the Lord's day: no phones, no lights, no motor cars, not a single luxury.


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## Tyrese (Aug 20, 2012)

@ Eric. Yeah that's another point where I get hung up. Suddenly some things are ok and others are not. I'm trying to figure out who is setting the standard being that there's so many different sabbatarians who hold to different convictions. But yet somehow it's all Biblical because it's done in the name of neccesity. Maybe someone can help me here??? I know what the 1689 says but my conscience is not bound by my confession. I also don't judge those who keep the sabbath as the Bible says people can do so if they so choose.


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## Contra_Mundum (Aug 20, 2012)

***Moderating***
Tyrese,
Please come no closer to advocating for a non-Confessional position.

Eric,
Please refrain from words that come closer to mocking the Confession's position, intended to help people make their way in conformity to God's will, in a world that is no help to them. Scripture allows Sabbath-works of _necessity,_ and though men will debate what is truly _necessary,_ at least the argument for using electricity attempts to find room for it within the parameters of a Scripturally defined principle.


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## AThornquist (Aug 20, 2012)

Rom, I have never and would never say that if we can't be perfect we should just give up. That never crossed my mind in this discussion. How 'bout this: people differ some in their application of the 4th commandment, so the best we can strive for is to be consistent with our own principles. And even then, sometimes our application of consistency looks inconsistent to others. I could say more, but I don't think that it would be entirely helpful at this point. Just be aware that my posts were a mixture of playing Devil's advocate and seeking to raise legitimate questions. I don't draw as hard of a line on eating out as some others do, but I also seek to be consistent in my understanding of the Word as I'm sure you do as well.


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## kodos (Aug 20, 2012)

Eric said:


> Eating at a restaurant or using the internet on Sunday no matter how small still requires electricity, which requires someone at the plant to monitor the generators which makes him/her a Sabbath breaker. I think the only way to be consistent is on the Lord's day: no phones, no lights, no motor cars, not a single luxury.



And the only way to stop sinning is to stop breathing. So why bother?

But really, we'll start worrying about tithing our dill and cumin instead of trying to bring our lives and hearts in conformance to God's Law? So because we struggle with the "what about electricity?" question we are willing to just completely disregard the command in a blatant way?

Let's take some steps toward obeying, and then trust that God will continue to guide us in these more difficult matters that require wisdom.


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## kodos (Aug 20, 2012)

AThornquist said:


> Rom, I have never and would never say that if we can't be perfect we should just give up. That never crossed my mind in this discussion. How 'bout this: people differ some in their application of the 4th commandment, so the best we can strive for is to be consistent with our own principles. And even then, sometimes our application of consistency looks inconsistent to others. I could say more, but I don't think that it would be entirely helpful at this point. Just be aware that my posts were a mixture of playing Devil's advocate and seeking to raise legitimate questions. I don't draw as hard of a line on eating out as some others do, but I also seek to be consistent in my understanding of the Word as I'm sure you do as well.



Thank you for the clarification, brother


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## Pergamum (Aug 20, 2012)

Rich Koster said:


> AThornquist said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not accusing anyone of intentionally applying it inconsistently, though I am comfortable saying that we all unwittingly apply it inconsistently in degree or another.
> ...



Should we answer the phone on Sunday?


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## Tim (Aug 20, 2012)

kodos said:


> Let's take some steps toward obeying, and then trust that God will continue to guide us in these more difficult matters that require wisdom.



Wise words, Rom. Thanks. Let us start with what is obvious - and then work from there. It seems like so many "oppositions" to the Sabbath issue question take this form:

1. "I know that me doing [insert a situation easily addressed] is contrary to the apparent reading of the 4th Commandment"

2. "but what about [insert a situation that is more extraordinary]?"

3. "and if we are to be entirely consistent, then we would have to [insert ludicrous suggestion]"

4. "since we can't be consistent..."

5. [implied conclusion] "let's not even try, then"

I am not pointing at anyone in this thread in particular, as I have seen this sort of reasoning used many times in many places. For example, by Gary North (who is very good on some of the other Commandments) when speaking of other aspects of work on the Sabbath.


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## Tyrese (Aug 20, 2012)

@ Tim. Lol I really like your response. # 3 is really funny. I will have to use this elsewhere.


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## JoannaV (Aug 20, 2012)

Pergamum said:


> Rich Koster said:
> 
> 
> > AThornquist said:
> ...




Depends on the purpose of the phone call 


Returning to the analogy, I do think the hit-man is not as helpful as it could be because the people you would be addressing have decided to take a pragmatic approach so they would likely take the analogy and interpret it pragmatically: there aren't many people considering avoiding restaurants on Sunday so it wouldn't change anything, whereas hit-man services are less in demand and so there probably would actually be one less murder if I didn't hire one. I think you need some kind of analogy that shows ones responsibility even when the outcome is unchanged.


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## davenporter (Aug 20, 2012)

Let's just ignore that the Sabbath is a creation ordinance, and let's neglect all the history of our brothers in the Reformation fighting to preserve the sanctification of the Lord's Day against the tide of those promoting sports and recreations as a valid use of the Sabbath, not to mention work -- or even worse, forcing your employees to work. Perhaps some of us are a little ignorant of the Covenant theology to which we claim to subscribe if we suggest that there is no Biblical warrant for the Sabbath any longer. Perhaps some of us aren't convinced, perhaps some of us haven't taken the time to study the issue, and perhaps some of us are simply unwilling to give up our own pleasures in order to sanctify a day to the Lord.

As I have found as I recently came to the Sabbatarian position, God doesn't lie. His promises still stand. The Sabbath is a blessing.

“If because of the sabbath, you turn your foot
From doing your own pleasure on My holy day,
And call the sabbath a delight, the holy day of the Lord honorable,
And honor it, desisting from your own ways,
From seeking your own pleasure
And speaking your own word,
14 Then you will take delight in the Lord,
And I will make you ride on the heights of the earth;
And I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father,
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.”
Isaiah 58:13-14

As our Lord said in Mark 2:27, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath."

This is true, and it is a blessing and a gift. I would admonish those of you who seem to mock those who would delight in the Lord with 1/7th of their time (6 days of work, 1 day of rest IN THE LORD) to taste and see that the Lord is good, and blessed is he who takes refuge in Him. What a gift it is to take up the full time of one day a week to celebrate and anticipate the eternal rest that the Lord will give us.

If we won't enter into the Lord's EARTHY, TEMPORAL rest that He gives us, then what are we saying about His HEAVENLY, ESCHATALOGICAL rest that He promises to us His people? Do we not anticipate eagerly entering into that rest where we will be forever with the Lord? (Hebrews 4:9-11). He has given us physical and spiritual rest in the Sabbath, He has blessed us with a covenant of grace that we may rest from our works and need not vainly strive to reach salvation by our own efforts, and He promises an eternal rest.

We have duties on the Sabbath. The English Puritans understood this:

"The duties of piety are... divided into three classes: public, private and secret. Public duties are to be performed by church members and by the minister. The minister is to read and preach the Word of God, pray to and praise God, administer the sacraments and bless the people. The people in turn are to attend the hearing and preaching of the Word of God, assent to the prayers and praise of God, partake of the sacraments and say "Amen" to the benediction. Private duties are those conducted in the family circle and consist in: reading God's Word; praying to and praising God; catechizing; repeating the sermon; conferring about the things of God; and singing Psalms. Secret duties are conducted by each person alone and consist in: reading Scripture; praying to and praising God; meditation; and self-examination.

"Duties of mercy consist in those which concern man's soul and those which concern man's body. Ministering to the soul includes: instructing the ignorant; establishing those who are weak in the faith; resolving doubts of the downcast; comforting the troubled; informing those in error; reproving the sinner; and building one another up in the Lord. Ministering to the body includes: visiting the sick and imprisoned; relieving the needy; rescuing those in danger; and giving all other succor necessary." (Dennison, Market Day of the Soul, 135-136).

These duties are ultimately NOT burdensome! Matthew 11:28-30, “ Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” That's not to say that you won't get tired on Sunday, it can be exhausting, but I end the day refreshed in the Lord and I love almost every minute of it. Catechism memory may be an exception, but the Lord is working on me! 

Oh, dear brothers and sisters, it is my prayer that we would learn to DELIGHT in the Lord's Day, to DELIGHT in His rest, to DELIGHT in the things of God, to enter into His rest, not only from our works, but to His works, which are means by which we abide in Him and are refreshed in Him. It is not a BURDEN -- it is a DELIGHT! And what a pity that I did not see it sooner, did not delight in the Lord's Day sooner, but listened to the Americanized Christianity that sees the Sabbath as a burden rather than a delight and blessing.

I suppose I post this simply to suggest that we ought not to lose the bigger picture of why we keep the Sabbath.


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## Scott1 (Aug 20, 2012)

> Westminster Larger Catechism
> 
> Question 117: How is the sabbath or the Lord's day to be sanctified?
> 
> Answer: The sabbath or Lord's day is to be sanctified by an holy resting all the day, not only from such works as are at all times sinful, but even from such worldly employments and recreations as are on other days lawful; and making it our delight to spend the whole time (except so much of it as is to betaken up in works of necessity and mercy) in the public and private exercises of God's worship: and, to that end, we are to prepare our hearts, and with such foresight, diligence, and moderation, to dispose and seasonably dispatch our worldly business, that we may be the more free and fit for the duties of that day.



Also, remember the application to those who work under your charge:



> Exodus 20
> 
> 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:


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## Tyrese (Aug 20, 2012)

@ Benjamin. I really would like to respond to you but I was told not to. Maybe we can talk another way as I am willing to discuss this topic?


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## Martin (Aug 20, 2012)

Contra_Mundum said:


> Eric,
> Please refrain from words that come closer to mocking the Confession's position, intended to help people make their way in conformity to God's will, in a world that is no help to them. Scripture allows Sabbath-works of necessity, and though men will debate what is truly necessary, at least the argument for using electricity attempts to find room for it within the parameters of a Scripturally defined principle.



Unintended. Sincere apologies to anyone that was offended by my carelessness.

On a side note, please allow me to clarify some remarks. My position on the Lord's Day, is that I do eat out occasionally (usually on Sunday night) and when I do, I do feel convicted about doing so. I have tried to observe the Lord's day without watching television, eating out, restricting the computer use to spiritual purposes only. I have failed at all these miserably, though I believe that we should observe the Lord's Day as described in the confessions. I would like to move to a more Biblical position and to follow this command of our Lord. My whole argument about electricity is to point out this: To us who do not have a firm grasp on the subject and who are looking in from the outside, the question is where do we draw the line? Even on the PB there is not a consensuses on the matter: if it should be observed, what is allowed, when does it even start and end. Arguing that it is not okay to eat out because it forces one to work, but that it is okay to do something else because it is already in use only confuses us more. None of my argument were intended to mock the Lord's Day but for edifying interaction, though my last post with reference to Gilligan was in jest.


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## Scott1 (Aug 21, 2012)

Eric,

The Westminster Confession summarizes the doctrine of Scripture on the fourth commandment/sabbath/ Lord's Day.



> Chapter XXI
> Of Religious Worship, and the Sabbath Day
> 
> ....
> ...



Basically, it is that we ordinarily "sabbath" (cease) from the ordinary work and play of the other six days of the week and make the day "holy" (set aside) so we can prioritize the worship of God, all the day, corporately (in church), in family and individually.

Three main aspects to it:

1) advance preparation
2) abstain from work
3) abstain from recreation

"Ordinarily" because there are exceptions for "mercy" and "necessity" established as part of the command. (A work is "necessary" if the work must be done at that time, not whether it is generally necessary. A doctor who must operate _today_ is an example of "necessity," selling stereos on the Lord's Day is not. And, yes that means there are some jobs Christians must not take or must quit if it causes them to routinely violate God's command for life.)

While it is necessary we eat on the Lord's Day, it is not necessary we eat in a restaurant out so that someone works for our convenience, thereby hindering them from keeping the sabbath, and hindering us by engaging us in that commerce on the Lord's Day.

Practically, it means getting routine errands out of the way by Saturday night- getting groceries bought, drawing cash from the ATM, having enough gas in the car, etc. It might mean also advance preparation of your Sunday meals, or reasonably so, to prevent distraction from the day).

I used to eat out on the Lord's Day, thinking the point was only trying to keep a spiritual focus while at the restaurant. But, there is duty to God and one's neighbor and the command of God to order life by this commandment (and the others).

Obedience here will open the door to many good things in the Christian life- true rest in mind and body, and inviting people over for fellowship times on the Lord's Day.

Think of it more of a day to worship God relatively unhindered without the distractions of work or amusement rather than as a day of "do nots."

The Christian sabbath is indeed , as Isaiah says, a delight.


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## Scott1 (Aug 21, 2012)

To understand the Westminster Confession summary of the doctrine of Scripture (the London Baptist is the same), you may find helpful:
_The Westminster Confession of Faith for Study Classes,_ by GI Williamson.
http://www.cepbookstore.com/p-284-the-westminster-confession-of.aspx

An excellent book about the priority of Lord's Day worship is _The Lord's Day,_Joseph Pipa.
http://www.ligonier.org/store/the-lords-day-paperback/


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## Christusregnat (Aug 21, 2012)

What is interesting is that the "hit man" analogy strikes us as overly aggressive, or perhaps too offensive, when, properly considered it is a strike against the image of God (2nd Table) whereas Sabbath-breaking is a strike against God Himself (1st Table). 

Part of the difficulty in discussions like this is that our evil hearts and our cultural context are grossly man-centered. This makes man's right to life more significant to us than God's right to entire day set aside for Him.

Note: I'm assuming the 4th Precept requires us to refrain from commerce and causing others to serve us.


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## Organgrinder (Aug 21, 2012)

Here is a downside to eating out on Sundays

I used to think that eating out on Sundays was something I was entitled to. Then we got into credit card debt because we were eating out Sunday evening and Wednesday evening sometimes as well. Now we have to say no when others invite us out for lunch. It is astounding when one realizes how much is spent on eating out. That money could've been used to help others.


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## Constantlyreforming (Aug 21, 2012)

Maybe I will bring this up again. 

The closest thing to "fast food" in scripture that we have an example of, in my opinion, is when God provided manna to the Israelites. What was his command to the Israelites on Saturday, in preparation for Sunday? 

My thought is that on Saturday, the Israelites were commanded to bring in twice the amount of manna so that they would not gather and "eat out", no matter how easy it was on Sunday. God lengthened the shelf-life of the manna by a day on the weekend.

Thoughts?


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## OPC'n (Aug 21, 2012)

Constantlyreforming said:


> Maybe I will bring this up again.
> 
> The closest thing to "fast food" in scripture that we have an example of, in my opinion, is when God provided manna to the Israelites. What was his command to the Israelites on Saturday, in preparation for Sunday?
> 
> ...



I'm not seeing your point really i guess.


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## nicnap (Aug 21, 2012)

Tyrese said:


> @ Nicnap. I agree that its not a confessional position, but you failed to show me how it's unbiblical. I spent a year going back and forth on this issue and to this day I still havnt found the Christian sabbath in the Bible. I see the Lords day, and I see principle as to what we should be doing on the Lords day. But with respect, no Christian sabbath. My church holds the sabbatarian view and I completly respect their position. Perhaps In the future I will better understand the sabbath. As of right now I think Tim Conway has given the most consistent explanation using the New Testament.



Did you spend that year reading the proof-texts for the WCF & WLC? Those are enough. Further, you might wish to read: _The Change and Perpetuity of the Sabbath_, by Jonathan Edwards. Further, there is enough in one search on these threads to give you plenty of reading (These should get you started: http://www.puritanboard.com/f17/objections-sabbath-using-colossians-2-16-a-71565/ ; http://www.puritanboard.com/f45/sabbatarianism-colossians-2-16-a-23966/ -- particularly the notes from Joey Pipa's book). I do not have time to give you a detailed analysis, but this is a good start.


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## Rich Koster (Aug 21, 2012)

Constantlyreforming said:


> Maybe I will bring this up again.
> 
> The closest thing to "fast food" in scripture that we have an example of, in my opinion, is when God provided manna to the Israelites. What was his command to the Israelites on Saturday, in preparation for Sunday?
> 
> ...



It's all about preparation. Packing a sac lunch would keep you out of the restaurant after Sunday meeting. If you want to cover unexpected guests, pack a little extra.


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