# A question about 'reading into' Christ's words



## a mere housewife (Sep 6, 2011)

I think this is the proper forum for this question: I was wondering if it is legitimate to think that Christ's use of the cry from Psalm 22 'My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me' arose from His recognition of the fulfillment of other aspects of this Psalm ('they have pierced my hands and my feet', 'they divide my garments among them' etc). Did He use those words -- as is expressed of His actions in other places -- not only because they were a real expression of His agony, but in a special way, to fulfill the Scriptures? If so, it is legitimate to think of His hanging onto these particular words as another aspect of His faith on the cross, and to think of the comfort He must have derived even in that agony, in uttering that cry -- knowing that the Psalm ends in praise? (If so, how absolutely wonderful that David, so many years before, in such a dark trial, could have provided a comfort for our Saviour in His worst agony -- as our Saviour's communion surely must have been a comfort in some way for Him.)

Would it also be correct to see Him fulfilling the Scriptures in the way He refers the women to 'go tell His brothers', and v. 22 of the Psalm? I suppose my question is essentially about how legitimate it might be to see, throughout Christ's life, His actions and especially His words as _consciously_ framed by the Scriptures; and to think 'behind' that of the faith expressed in such usage, and the comfort derived from it (because of knowing that the Scriptures He was fulfilling ended in deliverance and triumph)?

Could anyone add other places from the Old Testament that may have formed a conscious aspect of Christ's words and actions especially in the crucifixion and resurrection -- I would like to be able to read them in that light, if that is legitimate. Thank you.


----------



## py3ak (Sep 6, 2011)

Matthew 26:52-54 will show that Christ was consciously fulfilling the Scriptures in his actions. A clear OT text that provided a program for him is Isaiah 35:4-6, and possibly Isaiah 42:1-4 as well.


----------



## a mere housewife (Sep 6, 2011)

Thank you, kind sir. Then when he says in response to the query sent by John the Baptist that the lame leap, the blind receive their sight, etc. -- He would be referring John to this passage in Isaiah as well? Could you provide a more specific reference for the other Isaiah passage, if it is also used that way?

And then, is it legitimate to see that we have fellowship with Christ in the experiential aspect of our hope? Is it it legitimate to find comfort in the fact that Christ also experienced things and practiced hope in the same way that we do -- and would it be legitimate to say that as we recognise our situations in light of God's word and respond to them in that light we also in some way 'fulfill the Scriptures' (though in a different sense than our Saviour did, who is the fulfillment of the law and the prophets)? I'm sorry if that's very confusing.


----------



## rbcbob (Sep 6, 2011)

I cannot help it that I am reminded of a brother and sister sitting in the same room texting one another! Nonetheless I find it sweet.


----------



## py3ak (Sep 6, 2011)

Sometimes you have to get the ball rolling in order for others to begin chiming in....


----------



## VictorBravo (Sep 6, 2011)

a mere housewife said:


> 'go tell His brothers', and v. 22 of the Psalm?



Interesting. I was thinking of Hebrews 2:12, which confirms that Psalm 22:22 indeed was our Lord speaking.


----------



## MW (Sep 6, 2011)

The "Messianic Psalms" approach works to a certain extent, but then fails to account for certain phenomena like the cry from Ps. 22 and the committal from Ps. 31. I prefer what might be called the "Messianic consciousness" approach. The Psalms were Christ's own manual of devotion. His understanding of His Anointing and all that it entailed in relationship to God, Israel, and His enemies, was formed and filled by the Psalms to such an extent that the song and the singer became indistinguishable. The Psalms, then, do not merely speak of Him, but are His own expressions. See 2 Sam. 23:1, 2, and 1 Pet. 1:10-12 for further elucidation. On this understanding, there is no need to find specific fulfilment notices in the NT in order to designate a psalm as messianic. The whole Psalter is Messianic. Once this is acknowledged it is astounding to observe to what extent the sayings of our Lord are Psalmodic. Even, "depart from me, ye workers of iniquity," is formed from the Messiah identifying Himself with the chastened spirit of Ps. 6; and "the gates of hell shall not prevail" is the song of the refugee Who trusts that the Lord will not forget His poor ones, Ps. 9.


----------



## a mere housewife (Sep 6, 2011)

Vic, I just read that this evening -- I know I've read Hebrews before, but it feels like I'm reading it for the first time right now. I am also reminded of Psalm 68, and the women who publish the word? However, the ESV renders that verse differently than the KJV, so I am not sure if that is a legitimate inference (any input on that would be appreciated).

Bob, Ruben did point me to the correct passage in Matthew via a normal speech act  (which I am embarrassed not to have remembered, for I should have). He is though, very sweet to know that some of my questions need further clarification.

Rev. Winzer, I think that is a more satisfying explanation than to see only certain Psalms as Messianic, or even as 'more' Messianic than others? It makes the Psalms even more precious to see them that way. I think there is much comfort in thinking of the hope Christ would have derived from consciously fulfilling God's word. I am wondering especially about the legitimacy of being able to apply this to ourselves and those we speak to in their hard times. If we can see our Saviour as an example of letting God's word form His consciousness, and His responses, and of hanging onto it when He uttered His worst cry, and drawing hope from the way that very cry moved on to praise -- then we experience such deep communion with Him in learning to do the same, and it strengthens us in learning to do so (because God did indeed deliver Christ). It seems to me also that perhaps as we too form our consciousness in some measure by the Psalms (of being in Christ, and of what that means about our interpretation of our experience) we in some measure also fulfill God's word as Christ's body, and even as individuals (but I am unsure of this, or how it might be proper to phrase it, if so?)

I hope these questions are not too troublesome. I think there is a lot of comfort in understanding some of these things more clearly.


----------



## a mere housewife (Sep 7, 2011)

(I just wanted to add that Ruben was explaining to me further last night about how Christ would have understood from the Psalms that everything in prophecy bore down on Him and everything in history rested on His shoulders. Surely this was a terrible pressure for any man to bear; and yet Ruben was telling me how it would have been a comfort to Him to see -- as in Psalm 20 -- that the Old Testament church had prayed for him. We also agreed that we would dearly love to read it, if Rev. Winzer would write a book on the Psalms.


----------



## Afterthought (Sep 7, 2011)

Rev. Winzer, that is an intriguing (and I think correct) idea. But how does it deal with certain phrases in the Psalms? For example, the parts where it appears there's a third speaker: "The Lord said to my Lord" (In what sense could Christ say that? It seems there's another speaker.)? Or the parts where the Psalms appear to speak of Christ in the 3rd person, such as in Psalm 2 or Psalm 45 (or maybe Psalm 24 and 34 and 130 ['He shall redeem Israel'] too?)? Or the Psalms that speak of historic events, like Psalm 137? Or the Psalms that ask God to deliver the Psalmist or bring salvation to the Psalmist (even calling God His salvation) and to redeem the Psalmist? What about when the Psalmist confesses sin and asks to be delievered from his transgressions or to be delivered from illness, like Psalms 38, 39, 51? What about when the Psalmist calls the LORD his Shepherd, like in Psalm 23, or calls himself part of His sheep (Psalm 100) (isn't Christ said to be that Shepherd?)? And I suppose there's also the Psalms where the Psalmist speaks of God's words teaching him, of the Psalmist asking God for mercy, and of the Psalmist telling what God says (e.g., Psalm 46). And also, in what sense can we then sing the Psalms to Christ as God (to paraphrase an ancient letter's phrase) if they are not addressed to Christ specifically?

Thanks for any help!


----------



## Pilgrim Standard (Sep 7, 2011)

armourbearer said:


> The Psalms were Christ's own manual of devotion. His understanding of His Anointing and all that it entailed in relationship to God, Israel, and His enemies, was formed and filled by the Psalms to such an extent that the song and the singer became indistinguishable. The Psalms, then, do not merely speak of Him, but are His own expressions.



That is so beautiful.


----------



## py3ak (Sep 7, 2011)

a mere housewife said:


> Thank you, kind sir. Then when he says in response to the query sent by John the Baptist that the lame leap, the blind receive their sight, etc. -- He would be referring John to this passage in Isaiah as well? Could you provide a more specific reference for the other Isaiah passage, if it is also used that way?
> 
> And then, is it legitimate to see that we have fellowship with Christ in the experiential aspect of our hope? Is it it legitimate to find comfort in the fact that Christ also experienced things and practiced hope in the same way that we do -- and would it be legitimate to say that as we recognise our situations in light of God's word and respond to them in that light we also in some way 'fulfill the Scriptures' (though in a different sense than our Saviour did, who is the fulfillment of the law and the prophets)? I'm sorry if that's very confusing.



Yes, he reminds John of the OT predictions so John can have a definite answer to the query of whether or not Christ was "he-who-is-to-come". Matthew 12:19 references Isaiah 42.

We know that we have communion with Christ in suffering and in triumph; it is only logical to extend that to our support and comfort in trial as well; and it is certainly fair to hold that if the word of God strengthened Christ in the midst of greater trials, that sharing with Christ also in our appropriation of that word we can be strengthened for our relatively lesser afflictions. But I am not so confident of saying that we fulfill the Scriptures: Paul seems to hold that with regard to himself, from time to time, but that could be in view of his apostolic office and not simply his existence as a Christian But what you can say is that what was verified and confirmed as true in the case of the Head, will not fail with regard to the body. So while I am hesitant to say that _we_ fulfill the Scriptures (as though we were the thing to which they bore witness), it is not at all too much to say that the Scriptures are fulfilled in us in that our own experience, of being conformed to Christ, likewise witnesses that the Scripture cannot be broken.


----------



## MW (Sep 7, 2011)

a mere housewife said:


> It seems to me also that perhaps as we too form our consciousness in some measure by the Psalms (of being in Christ, and of what that means about our interpretation of our experience) we in some measure also fulfill God's word as Christ's body, and even as individuals (but I am unsure of this, or how it might be proper to phrase it, if so?)



1 Peter 3 provides a key to applying these to ourselves. Verse 9, "knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing." The words of Ps. 34 follow. What is found in Ps. 34? Calling and blessing. Calling, to join with the Psalmist as fellow worshippers of God, vv. 1-10. Blessing, to wait with the Psalmist to inherit the fulness of the kingdom of God, vv. 11-22. He has already expressed our fears, sorrows, hopes, longings, etc. They are in Him pre-eminently, and they are in us by participation in Him. Some of these expressions are undoubtedly vicarious -- the Anointed (Christ) for us, vv. 4-5. He does for Israel what Israel cannot do for herself. But even here, it is an imputed sorrow, a representative pain; it is still our suffering He endures, and endures it in such a way as to take away the judgment of God. What is left for us is the joy of suffering as a willing act of fellowship with Him, vv. 17-22.


----------



## MW (Sep 7, 2011)

Afterthought said:


> Rev. Winzer, that is an intriguing (and I think correct) idea. But how does it deal with certain phrases in the Psalms? For example, the parts where it appears there's a third speaker: "The Lord said to my Lord" (In what sense could Christ say that? It seems there's another speaker.)? Or the parts where the Psalms appear to speak of Christ in the 3rd person, such as in Psalm 2 or Psalm 45 (or maybe Psalm 24 and 34 and 130 ['He shall redeem Israel'] too?)? Or the Psalms that speak of historic events, like Psalm 137? Or the Psalms that ask God to deliver the Psalmist or bring salvation to the Psalmist (even calling God His salvation) and to redeem the Psalmist? What about when the Psalmist confesses sin and asks to be delievered from his transgressions or to be delivered from illness, like Psalms 38, 39, 51? What about when the Psalmist calls the LORD his Shepherd, like in Psalm 23, or calls himself part of His sheep (Psalm 100) (isn't Christ said to be that Shepherd?)? And I suppose there's also the Psalms where the Psalmist speaks of God's words teaching him, of the Psalmist asking God for mercy, and of the Psalmist telling what God says (e.g., Psalm 46). And also, in what sense can we then sing the Psalms to Christ as God (to paraphrase an ancient letter's phrase) if they are not addressed to Christ specifically?



There are many details in these questions and we are likely to lose the forest for all the trees. Let's begin with Ps. 110. Christ Himself took up these words. Then the church took them up and expounded the doctrine of universal dominion from them. The psalm itself presents something unique. Another speaker? Yes; but it would be more correct to say that it is the same speaker speaking in a different capacity. It is David, not as a type of Christ, but as a prophet of Christ. In many psalms David speaks as the one to whom the promise of seed and kingdom properly belongs. In this psalm he has detached himself from his seed and kingdom and given expression to his faith in the One to come as his own Lord. Christ Himself understands it in this way when he draws attention to the dual nature of David's relationship to the Messiah. On the one hand He is David's Son; on the other hand He is David's Lord. Christ Himself, as David's son, is able to speak of Himself as David's Lord. He witnesses to Himself.

Pss. 2, 45, etc., pose no problem because Christ Himself bears witness to the Messiah in the third person.

Confession of sin? Counter-imputation.

Historic events? Recapitulation.

Covenant language? "I and my Father are one."


----------



## a mere housewife (Sep 7, 2011)

Thank you, Ruben and Rev. Winzer. I think that answers my question (which is somewhat, I think, mixed up with what Raymond had asked above: for there are certain things in the Psalms, like God being our God to old age, which seem to apply to Christ considered as the head of His people: and so those things seem to be more 'literally' fulfilled to or by elderly saints who identify themselves under His headship); but I will think more about these things. 

Rev. Winzer, I am especially grateful for what you said about identifying with Christ as the speaker in those expressions of experiencing God's judgment in the Psalms. I think it is true that this is the only way to learn suffering as a joy -- for and in Him, who took all the wrath out of it for us. But that is not something I had consciously focused on learning to do in reading the Psalms yet: though I have learned to see the 'reward' statements (as 62:12) as statements that belong to me because I belong to Him. Then I understand that those judgment statements 'belong' to me in the same way? They our indeed mine, but only because I belong to Christ, who suffered all of them for me?

I was wondering, along the lines of what you sketched out to Raymond, if you could explain about the petition in Psalm 20:9, and in what sense Christ is the speaker in asking 'to let the King hear us when we call'?


----------



## MW (Sep 7, 2011)

a mere housewife said:


> I was wondering, along the lines of what you sketched out to Raymond, if you could explain about the petition in Psalm 20:9, and in what sense Christ is the speaker in asking 'to let the King hear us when we call'?


 
A suggestion which may or may not be helpful -- "After this manner therefore pray ye..." Or, Rom. 8:27, "the Spirit," i.e., of Christ, v. 9, "itself maketh intercession for us."


----------



## py3ak (Sep 7, 2011)

Mr. Winzer are there any books or commentaries that adopt a similar approach to the Psalms? I know every time we discuss some aspect of interpretation of the Psalms it is very illuminating and heartwarming for me, and I'm sure it would be a blessing to consider any sources or influences that helped you to this view.


----------



## MW (Sep 8, 2011)

py3ak said:


> Mr. Winzer are there any books or commentaries that adopt a similar approach to the Psalms? I know every time we discuss some aspect of interpretation of the Psalms it is very illuminating and heartwarming for me, and I'm sure it would be a blessing to consider any sources or influences that helped you to this view.


 
Augustine adopts a Messianic approach, but his failure to tie it to historical method results in all kinds of allegorical aberrations. Andrew Bonar's work is also full of fruitful suggestions without a solid exegetical basis. Hengstenberg provides the exegetical basis and sometimes ventures into the realm of "Messianic consciousness," but then becomes wary of scholastic criticism and draws back again. He seems to have been the first to attempt to show the "compositional unity" of the Psalter. Afterwards the higher criticism divides the Psalter into so many literary pieces that it becomes difficult to recognise it any longer as a book. One fruit of this period is the "eschatological approach," which is seen in Vos' essay appended to The Pauline Eschatology. Afterwards form criticism identified numerous classifications of the psalms, one of which was the "royal psalm." Scholars then started showing how the royal theme works its way through the Psalter, and eventually led to the acceptance that it shapes the Psalter in some way. In modern studies there is a renewed emphasis on the unity of the Psalter due mostly to Brevard Childs' Canonical Process Approach. Not all "themes" are created equal, and some seem to be diametrically opposed to others, but most of them can positively contribute in some way to the "Messianic consciousness" approach. That is a long way of saying that there is no one work which fits the description, but the materials have all been prepared and await construction.


----------



## py3ak (Sep 8, 2011)

armourbearer said:


> ...the materials have all been prepared and await construction.



I am sure I am not the only person to feel hopeful that construction might begin soon....


----------



## a mere housewife (Sep 8, 2011)

Rev. Winzer, I was thinking this morning that the 'construction' requires not only mastery of the materials, but especially with regard to this particular subject, it seems to require an experiential knowledge, perhaps especially with regard to what you were saying about communion with Christ in suffering -- and a pastoral heart. I know it is God's business to give such things to the church in His own time and way, but I hope it is not presumptuous to just pray that He might give that to us through you. The Psalms have been my greatest comfort in the worst moments -- precisely because I have met my Lord in the words I couldn't find for myself, and which I knew when I read them to be His; and I would love to be able to read and understand more about that.

It struck me this morning too that when the impact of suffering is communion with Christ, then the whole world is changed. It is hard to willingly embrace the suffering God has chosen for you when you feel that it is a judgment, for then God is outside and against you. But if He is inside, if it is the place of being near to Christ, then suffering is greater joy 'than when their corn and their wine are increased'. And one doesn't have to be afraid of the future, which whenever you tear away the rose colored glasses takes the inevitable form -- even as a merely a homemaker -- of suffering and death, caring for loved ones as they pass away, etc. Even here, if suffering is the presence of the God we love and long for, the future is worth living through, and whatever its outward form, it is the essence of joy.


----------



## MW (Sep 8, 2011)

It may be the case that those who have experienced suffering have an inside knowledge of the psalms, but their experience of suffering might also leave them without the physical strength for prolonged and precise writing on such a large and detailed subject. But thankyou for the encouragement. We wait upon the Lord.


----------



## a mere housewife (Sep 8, 2011)

Of course, Rev. Winzer. Yes, we do. And none of those who wait for Him are put to shame.


----------



## Afterthought (Sep 9, 2011)

Thanks, Rev. Winzer! That's all quite helpful!


----------

