# The Lord's Prayer



## Jake (Sep 16, 2014)

Are we commanded in Scripture to say the Lord's Prayer in unison in public worship?


----------



## Logan (Sep 16, 2014)

No.


----------



## C. M. Sheffield (Sep 16, 2014)

*The Westminsiter Directory of Public Worship:* "And because the prayer which Christ taught his disciples is not only a pattern of prayer, but itself a most comprehensive prayer, we recommend it also to be used in the prayers of the church."


----------



## jambo (Sep 16, 2014)

No. It is an example of prayer outlining the elements of praise, thanksgiving, confession and supplication. RCs repeat it superstitiously as does the Anglican church.


----------



## whirlingmerc (Sep 16, 2014)

No.... but the word 'our' does suggests it's allowed 

It's an example of putting God's interest first, addressing God as Father, simplicity in prayer and importance of forgiveness and reconciliation. It begins and ends with God's kingdom


----------



## NaphtaliPress (Sep 16, 2014)

As pointed out this was suggested in the Directory. Henderson's sermons for the year 1638 imply the use at the end of the prayer before sermon. The practice fell into disuse from 1638-1660, but there was never an act putting the use aside. I don't know the subsequent history of use and disuse. I would guess it is generally in use in PCUSA descendent churches including the OPC and PCA. See pages xxii and 339 in Sprott and Leishmann who reproduce some of the little info. 
The Book of Common Order of the Church of Scotland, Commonly Known as John ... - Thomas LEISHMAN, George Washington SPROTT - Google Books p. xxii
The Book of Common Order of the Church of Scotland, Commonly Known as John ... - Thomas LEISHMAN, George Washington SPROTT - Google Books p. 339


----------



## Jake (Sep 17, 2014)

I appreciate your remarks, Stuart (and Logan). This has seemed to be to be the correct answer, but I'm not sure: hence this thread. 

Michael, can something be allowed and not commanded in worship with the Reformed doctrine of worship? I'm inclined to say no, but I'd appreciate thoughts.

Regarding the Westminster directory, is this prescribing an in unison repetition of the prayer, one prayed by one (generally an elder) with consent of the church body, or one used as such in a pattern (as my own pastor often does)? There may be other options as well, but I do not necessarily see it as the first, though I could be easily wrong.

Chris, thanks for the historical information. As an addendum regarding current practices, I have been in an RPCNA congregation and an ARP congregation that recited the Lord's Prayer in unison, both of which have obviously different historical routes. I do not know how common the practice is in either denomination.


----------



## chuckd (Sep 17, 2014)

Jake said:


> Regarding the Westminster directory, is this prescribing an in unison repetition of the prayer, one prayed by one (generally an elder) with consent of the church body, or one used as such in a pattern (as my own pastor often does)? There may be other options as well, but I do not necessarily see it as the first, though I could be easily wrong.



My church does the first. I don't think it is superstitious as someone suggested, unless you believe reciting the creeds, singing hymns or even Psalms is superstitious. At least the Lord's prayer is the Lord's and comes directly from the Holy Scripture.


----------



## chuckd (Sep 17, 2014)

jambo said:


> No. It is an example of prayer outlining the elements of praise, thanksgiving, confession and supplication. RCs repeat it superstitiously as does the Anglican church.



I repeat it every night prior to other prayers I say to the Lord.

WLC Q. 187. How is the Lord’s Prayer to be used?

A. The Lord’s Prayer is not only for direction, as a pattern, according to which we are to make other prayers; but may also be used as a prayer, so that it be done with understanding, faith, reverence, and other graces necessary to the right performance of the duty of prayer.


----------



## Alan D. Strange (Sep 17, 2014)

Jake said:


> Michael, can something be allowed and not commanded in worship with the Reformed doctrine of worship? I'm inclined to say no, but I'd appreciate thoughts.



Jake:

I find this statement possibly to reflect confusion on your part. 

The regulative principle teaches that there are elements and circumstances of worship. Nothing may be added to the elements. Prayer is clearly one of the elements of worship. Thus the Lord's Prayer, which is the pattern for prayer, may certainly be employed in worship. It's in Scripture, after all. 

The Westminster Directory for the Public Worship of God simply states that it is appropriate for corporate usage (after, as noted herein, so much "rote" abuse by so many over the centuries). And saying it in worship all together permits the congregation in this instance not only to pray along with the minister, but, using words our Lord Himself gave, say that pray together (as we would read Scripture, sing, or confess together using the same words).

We in our congregation all say the Ten Commandments (along with the Creed) together. Do you think that there's something wrong with this (I know that some may object to the Creed)? We personally have the habit in morning prayer in our household of saying the Lord's Prayer together at the conclusion of our extemporaneous prayers. My family has testified how much that has meant to them (I realize that's not corporate public worship, just thought that I'd report that). 

Do you feel as if your conscience is being bound in some way in public worship, that the Lord's Prayer is being said but you don't want to say it along with the congregation (for some reason)? I'm unclear here on the real ground of your objection. 

Peace,
Alan


----------



## NaphtaliPress (Sep 17, 2014)

It is not very clear to me and I could go land on either answer whether it was just the minister or if the congregation followed in unison. I was never under the impression (perhaps incorrectly) that the trouble over the recitation of the creed was just with the recitation by the minister but that it was corporate. The Book of Common order or "Knox's Liturgy" seems to imply the congregation joins in that and in the Lord's prayer, but other later practice counters that. I get mixed signals from the evidence. See pages 89-90 in the previous links. For additional mixed signals see Edgar's Old Church life at the link, pp 62, 72, 193: Old Church life in Scotland, lectures - Andrew Edgar (D. D.) - Google Books



Jake said:


> Chris, thanks for the historical information. As an addendum regarding current practices, I have been in an RPCNA congregation and an ARP congregation that recited the Lord's Prayer in unison, both of which have obviously different historical routes. I do not know how common the practice is in either denomination.


----------



## C. M. Sheffield (Sep 17, 2014)

I believe it to be a perfectly good and acceptable practice whether done by the minister alone or by the congregation in unison. The practice has and may be abused, but we ought not to throw the baby out with the bath water. The point made by some concerning psalms and hymns is cogent one. Many who object to a weekly recitation of the Lord's Prayer have no issue with singing the Doxology or the Gloria Patri every week. And they are not even Scripture. The only difference is that one is said and the other is sung.


----------



## brendanchatt (Sep 21, 2014)

Alan D. Strange said:


> The regulative principle teaches that there are elements and circumstances of worship. Nothing may be added to the elements. Prayer is clearly one of the elements of worship.



I'd gather the concern is that corporate unison prayer is not an element.

I predict that prayer would be said to be the element
and corporate unison, the circumstance.

If this is how it is seen, I don't know that I agree

Continued:


Alan D. Strange said:


> Thus the Lord's Prayer, which is the pattern for prayer, may certainly be employed in worship.


Sir, for some this might seem to skip the corporate unison part.

Prayer is an element.
The Lord's prayer is a circumstance.
Prayer can be made in unison using the Lord's prayer.

Maybe it is intended that prayer encompasses the permission to vocalize in unison for the whole congregation. The leap seems apparent if not, but, if so, I need to learn such infusion of the word "prayer."


----------



## brendanchatt (Sep 21, 2014)

brendanchatt said:


> I need to learn such infusion of the word "prayer."


I would; I am open to looking at portions of scripture I haven't considered or maybe have misinterpreted.


----------



## Alan D. Strange (Sep 21, 2014)

Psalms, said together, responsively, or sung are often corporate unison prayer. Seems more than merely circumstantial to me. If the congregations says or sings anything together in worship, anything at all, it's going to be corporate and unison and often a prayer of some sort. 

Peace,
Alan


----------



## brendanchatt (Sep 21, 2014)

Okay sir. I don't see it, but thank you for explaining.


Thanks,
Brendan


----------



## Alan D. Strange (Sep 21, 2014)

Brendan:

I don't follow what you mean when you say that you don't see it--you don't see what? What I said is that we all engage in corporate unison prayer at various points of worship, whether in singing or reading Scripture in unison or in response. Do you deny all of this? Some clarity would help me to know how to address what it is that you don't see. If you allege a violation of the regulative principle here, which is what you seem to do, you need to be prepared to defend and develop that contention.

It's not that I've rejected your argumentation, I haven't seen any on your part. Various folk herein have offered argumentation and you seem merely to say "I don't see it," or like expressions of disagreement. But such statements are not arguments. Good arguments have been forwarded for the elemental nature of corporate unison prayer, in singing and/or reciting Scripture, but they've only been met with "I don't see it." I think that you need to do better than that, especially since you brought the question up as a concern. 

Peace,
Alan


----------



## CraigTruglia (Sep 22, 2014)

Jake said:


> Are we commanded in Scripture to say the Lord's Prayer in unison in public worship?



No, but I don't think it is bad to do, a lot of baptists think it is too "high church."


----------



## Jake (Sep 22, 2014)

Dr. Strange,

Perhaps I can help to clarify my thoughts.

I certainly agree that prayer is an element of worship and that we are commanded to pray in public worship. However, the general pattern is that one man prays on behalf of the congregation with the congregation's assent. In a like manner, the reading of Scripture is done by one, whereas the Scriptural pattern is singing in unison. Despite singing of Psalms being an element of worship, I would object to singing being done by only one (i.e., a soloist) or only a portion of the congregation (i.e., a choir) in public worship, rather than the voices being joined in unison. My concern here is whether a congregation is to say the prayer in unison. Surely not all are to read Scripture publicly in the congregation (WLC 156), so I would object to the unison reading of Scripture by the congregation. 

More simply: I believe prayer is commanded in public worship, but I do not know if a) we are commanded to recite exactly the words of the Lord's prayer b) if all, men and women, different states, etc. are all together to recite the words. I have not seen where any such mutual confession of words is appropriate in the public worship of the New Testament.

I also want to guard against pragmatics in public worship, as this would allow for all matter of innovation in worship. I could think of good reasons to say the Lord's Prayer as you mentioned doing in family worship or even creeds to aid in memorization and for helps for my soul, but that does not mean that God commands them in public worship. 

I'm also still concerned about how regulatively something could not be commanded, but allowed. Perhaps I have a deficient understanding of the regulative principle of worship, but I don't see how, as many of my brothers here are saying, God can at once not command something in worship, but allow it. I do not think this is merely circumstantial. Yes, the element is prayer, but as with all the elements, we do not merely say as long as it is the element that something is okay. I am concerned with the jump from God commanding prayer to God allowing everyone to join together in unison to recite a prayer, which seems an irregular pattern in New Testament worship.

As far as how this impacts me, as you asked, it is not the norm in the OP congregation of which I am a member to recite the Lord's Prayer in unison. However, if we should be, then I would seek for that to be rectified in the church. And I am also concerned with what I should be doing when I join in public worship where this is done, which has happened a couple of times even this year while away from home and worshipping elsewhere.


----------



## Alan D. Strange (Sep 22, 2014)

Unison, or responsive, reading of a Psalm by the congregation is no more "read[ing] the word publickly to the congregation" than is the whole congregation's singing a Psalm. Your position seems arbitrary to me (how you've determined that unison prayer would constitute "an irregular pattern in New Testament worship" mystifies me), but the last post is helpful to see from where you are coming. Thanks.

Peace,
Alan


----------



## whirlingmerc (Sep 22, 2014)

Unison, with one voice... I only see one place in the epistles :

Romans 15:5 May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus, 6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. 7 Therefore welcome one another as Christ has welcomed you, for the glory of God.

welcoming, glorifying God, non divisively

But somewhat more 'in spirit' that 'in audio' 
with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ
Doing things 'in one accord' seems to occur allot. Saying things in unison... I have trouble finding references


----------



## C. M. Sheffield (Sep 22, 2014)

Jake said:


> I certainly agree that prayer is an element of worship and that we are commanded to pray in public worship. However, the general pattern is that one man prays on behalf of the congregation with the congregation's assent. In a like manner, the reading of Scripture is done by one, whereas the Scriptural pattern is singing in unison. Despite singing of Psalms being an element of worship, I would object to singing being done by only one (i.e., a soloist) or only a portion of the congregation (i.e., a choir) in public worship, rather than the voices being joined in unison. My concern here is whether a congregation is to say the prayer in unison. Surely not all are to read Scripture publicly in the congregation (WLC 156), so I would object to the unison reading of Scripture by the congregation.



On what exegetical basis do you make the claim that one man praying on behalf of the congregation is THE biblical norm to the exclusion of all others. The Bible no where explicitly commands that all prayer be made in this way. Neither does the New Testament explicitly command all singing to be done in unison as a congregation. In fact their are some puritans who would have gone to the mat with you on that claim--insisting that the only singing to be done in public worship is by one person and never by the congregation! As strange as that sounds to us, it illustrates the point that "the general practice" is not necessarily the only biblically justified practice. 



Jake said:


> More simply: I believe prayer is commanded in public worship, but I do not know if a) we are commanded to recite exactly the words of the Lord's prayer b) if all, men and women, different states, etc. are all together to recite the words. I have not seen where any such mutual confession of words is appropriate in the public worship of the New Testament.



Our Lord makes it explicit: "Pray then like this: 'Our Father in heaven...'" Now, apart from our Lord's general admonitions on prayer, he specifically gives them this form of prayer with the words "Pray like this." Further he uses plural pronouns throughout the prayer (e.g. "our" and "us") making it clear that this prayer is most certainly corporate in character. This was clearly how the early Church interpreted the Lord's instructions. In the earliest records of Christian worship, we have the recitation of the Lord's Prayer as one part of an otherwise simple liturgy. While antiquity is not the rule of our practice, neither should it be ignored. 



Jake said:


> I also want to guard against pragmatics in public worship, as this would allow for all matter of innovation in worship. I could think of good reasons to say the Lord's Prayer as you mentioned doing in family worship or even creeds to aid in memorization and for helps for my soul, but that does not mean that God commands them in public worship.



Of all people, I appreciate the desire to guard the church's worship from innovations. But how a congregational recitation of the Lord's Prayer (or any other portion of Scripture) could be called an innovation, is beyond me. Do you believe the Westminster Divines were encouraging "innovation" when they commended the use of the Lord's Prayer in public worship? You are in the OPC. Your denomination's hymnal, the Trinity Hymnal provides for Responsive Reading of the Psalms in both the old and new editions. Are they innovators? 



Jake said:


> I'm also still concerned about how regulatively something could not be commanded, but allowed. Perhaps I have a deficient understanding of the regulative principle of worship, but I don't see how, as many of my brothers here are saying, God can at once not command something in worship, but allow it. I do not think this is merely circumstantial. Yes, the element is prayer, but as with all the elements, we do not merely say as long as it is the element that something is okay. I am concerned with the jump from God commanding prayer to God allowing everyone to join together in unison to recite a prayer, which seems an irregular pattern in New Testament worship.



In the first place, no one on this thread has made any such statement. Rather they have maintained that such a practice has a positive biblical warrant from the Lord himself. You appear to be super-imposing your own assumptions about worship and prayer onto the New Testament. In the second place, it appears to me that you are unfamiliar with certain terms associated with worship and the Regulative Principle. In worship we speak of Elements, Circumstances, and Forms. Elements concern those things being done, which the RP requires to have a positive biblical warrant (i.e. Preaching, Scripture Reading, Prayer, Sacraments, Singing). Circumstances concerns when, where, and how these things are done, which are to be determined by sanctified common sense and what tends most to edification. Lastly, their are what we call Forms. Forms are anything where the words being used in worship are set. This includes psalms and hymns, responsive readings, calls to worship, benedictions, and doxologies. The Lord's Prayer is one such form of prayer--given to us by our Lord--with the words "pray like this." 



Jake said:


> As far as how this impacts me, as you asked, it is not the norm in the OP congregation of which I am a member to recite the Lord's Prayer in unison. However, if we should be, then I would seek for that to be rectified in the church. And I am also concerned with what I should be doing when I join in public worship where this is done, which has happened a couple of times even this year while away from home and worshipping elsewhere.



Your church doesn't practice reciting the Lord's Prayer. That's perfectly fine. Your session has the prerogative of making that decision. But it would not be an "innovation" for them to introduce the practice, nor is it an innovation when other churches employ the Lord's Prayer among their other public prayers. If you take exception with something being done in worship which the Bible nowhere commands, you have every right to make your concerns known to the session of your church. But you simply cannot make such an assertion in the case of a church employing a biblical-inspired form of prayer which our Lord commended the use of. I believe this is a case where your ideas about what's acceptable in worship are shaped by what you are used to. You're not used to using set forms of prayer (even divinely inspired ones) and therefore, you see it as an innovation.


----------



## Jake (Sep 22, 2014)

Pastor Sheffield, I'll respond more thoroughly later. I will say that it has been at the inspiration of reading the puritans and covenanters that my inspiration has come, although I've only found a few to address more directly the issue of the Lord's Prayer; generally it is set forms in general. I would hope that my concerns are not new or novel and are grounded in Scripture.

There are many who object to the Lord's prayer being recited directly, but my primary contention is if it is to be used in unison in worship. I'll leave some words I was wondering about from John Brown for now and, Lord willing, return to this thread soon when I do not have work to attend to. 



> Q. What special rule of direction in prayer hath God given us? -- A. That form of prayer which Christ taught his disciples, which is commonly called the Lord's prayer, because the Lord Jesus prescribed it.
> 
> Q. Did Christ prescribe it as a form, the express words of which we are bound to use? -- A. No; but as a pattern of prayer, directing us what we should pray for, and in what order we should offer our requests.
> 
> ...



I realize John Brown is just one voice commenting on one part of my question, but it's part of why I raised it.


----------



## Contra_Mundum (Sep 22, 2014)

whirlingmerc said:


> Unison, with one voice... I only see one place in the epistles :


This response is to the narrow question resulting from the quoted observation. It is not a direct answer to the question of unison recitation of the Lord's Prayer (though I think that it does lend support to such corporate statements-of-faith).

Here is some corporate declaration, much of it is clearly in the context of, or interpretable within worship.Dt.27:15, etc., "...And *all the people shall answer* and say, 'Amen.'"
1Chr.16:36, "Blessed be the LORD, the God of Israel, from everlasting to everlasting!" Then *all the people said*, "Amen!" and praised the LORD."
Neh.5:13, "And *all the assembly said* "Amen" and praised the LORD."
Neh.8:6, "And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God, and *all the people answered*, "Amen, Amen," lifting up their hands. And they bowed their heads and worshiped the LORD with their faces to the ground."
Ps.106:48, "Blessed be the LORD, the God of Israel, from everlasting to everlasting! And *let all the people say*, "Amen!" Praise the LORD!"​


> 1Cor.14:16, "Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, *how can anyone in the position of an outsider say "Amen"* to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying?"


Given the OT background, this phrasing by the Apostle seems intended to say that the "outsider" cannot join in heart with the corporate declaration, "Truly!" (Amen)

To which we may add, 2Cor.1:20, "For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that *we utter our Amen* to God for his glory."​
The book of Revelation, although there are debates of application to the earthly situation, does portray worship in heaven; and with it corporate statements:Rev.5:14, "And the four living creatures said, "Amen!" and the elders fell down and worshiped."
Rev.7:11-12, "And *all* the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, *saying*, "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.""
Rev.19:4, "And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who was seated on the throne, *saying*, "Amen. Hallelujah!""​


----------



## NaphtaliPress (Sep 22, 2014)

I do not have time to engage on this as I think it may require significant "discovery" and I'm juggling multiple book projects and can't commit the time but toss this out there For what it's worth so ya'll can kick it around. While certainly no trained scholar, as one who has done a significant amount of investigation into things "Westminster", I don't see the Westminster assembly granting this third category of "forms" simply because they called the Lord's Prayer a form of prayer as well as a prayer. Besides, what modern Presbyterians do with that category the Puritans would no way have granted as acceptable worship practice. They rejected congregational responses so would have opposed responsive readings and as has been raised already given their view of who may perform the ordinance of reading of Scripture they would have opposed at least on that ground, in unison readings of Scripture. I think most will grant that a lot of what is normal to 20-21st century Presbyterian worship was not envisioned as permissible by the Puritans nor the Westminster Assembly. By adding this category of forms do we not in fact significantly modify what the Puritans were willing to grant? Or am I wrong? Does the Westminster assembly anywhere articulate a doctrine of forms in addition to defining circumstantial matters of worship (WCF 1.6) and the specific elements of worship (WCF 21.7)?


----------



## C. M. Sheffield (Sep 22, 2014)

Jake,

With all due respect to Mr. Brown, merely pointing out the fact that there are differences in how the prayer is worded in Matthew and Luke, or that other prayers were used by the apostles, hardly justifies his conclusion that its not at all to be used as a form of prayer by individual Christians or in the worship of the church. I think his perspective is an overreaction to the formalism of his day. Formalism is an error which must always be carefully watched against. The proliferation of fixed forms of prayer (especially uninspired forms) often have been accompanied by a downward slip into this error, which is the bane of spiritual worship. For this reason, I believe the use of fixed forms should be very limited. In fact, the Lord's Prayer is the only from prayer that I would be comfortable employing in the public worship of the church (notwithstanding the palms and hymns which belong to congregational singing). 

So with those things in mind, I conclude with this question, on what *exegetical* basis do you make the claim that a congregation is in violation of the regulative principle by employing the Lord's Prayer in their public worship? That is the crux of the matter as I see it. And I do not believe you have, as yet, offered a response.


----------



## Afterthought (Sep 22, 2014)

C. M. Sheffield said:


> With all due respect to Mr. Brown, merely pointing out the fact that there are differences in how the prayer is worded in Matthew and Luke, or that other prayers were used by the apostles, hardly justifies his conclusion that its not at all to be used as a form of prayer by individual Christians or in the worship of the church.


It seems to me Mr. Brown is actually arguing that none should confine themselves to set forms of prayer, although it is more strongly worded in the beginning questions.

Brown doesn't here address the saying of things in unison, but it was either him elsewhere or Fisher that said they found no warrant for the congregation to say anything besides "Amen" for the ordinary elements of worship (besides singing, of course).

"Q. Why may not others *confine* themselves to set forms of prayer?"


----------



## brendanchatt (Sep 24, 2014)

Yes Dr. Strange, I would be happy to provide a response. 

In a response that may seem to have been trite, I only tried to be discreet, in trying to cover over what I saw lacking.

Before Rev. Buchanan's posts I saw no scriptures brought to bear on the subject, but rather, arguments from practice to practice. That is, we do this, therefore, we should also be able to do that. 

I may have scrolled passed the scriptural arguments or maybe I'm to be more mindful that the practices to which you referred as a basis for establishing your argument, are assumed to be scriptural and I need to have inquired in that respect or searched myself. Forgive me of that if so. But I'd hope you'd seek to justify me instead of neglecting some of what I've brought to bear.

From our regulative standpoint, I have brought argumentation to the table, and I hope to our benefit. I've tried, in essence, to point out where previous arguments have failed to establish succinct warrant for the practice of unison prayer. 


Alan D. Strange said:


> It's not that I've rejected your argumentation, I haven't seen any on your part.


..if I understand your quote correctly. 

I don't see it, in its brevity, was intended to quietly communicate (1) There seems to be wanting in the argument Biblical support for the position, and (2) The same, in such a way to indicate "maybe its just me, and I'm missing it."



Alan D. Strange said:


> Good arguments have been forwarded for the elemental nature of corporate unison prayer, in singing and/or reciting Scripture, but they've only been met with "I don't see it."


I beseech you not to forget the posts I made previously.

Sir, I'd rather simply defend myself in that at present, than come down sharply on the points which had been presented, and possibly tomorrow morning, in softness, the Lord willing, if he grants us that grace again, Psalm 3:5.

Thank you for your patient ear if you've read hitherto,


----------

