# McLaren... worse than I ever thought.



## VaughanRSmith (Apr 16, 2007)

Has anybody listened to the interview with Brian McLaren on the Bleeding Purple podcast? I had never actually heard anything he had said or written in the past, and one of my friends loves him and his theology. I just listened to it, and now have no trouble in saying that the man is no Christian at all. Please pray for the people trapped in the emergent movement, they need a real Christ. 

If you haven't heard them, here are the links.

Part 1

Part 2


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## Founded on the Rock (Apr 16, 2007)

Exagorazo said:


> . I just listened to it, and now have no trouble in saying that the man is no Christian at all. Please pray for the people trapped in the emergent movement, they need a real Christ.



I know people in the Emergent church that are Christians. I am in no way defending McLaren, but I would probably qualify your statement in my opinion. There are actually "Calvinists" in the Emergent tradition.

It is so broad that anymore I don't know what it means (the comforting thing is no one in the movement does either). The people in the movement need a more firm eccleisology in my estimation.


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## Bandguy (Apr 16, 2007)

Founded on the Rock said:


> I know people in the Emergent church that are Christians. I am in no way defending McLaren, but I would probably qualify your statement in my opinion. There are actually "Calvinists" in the Emergent tradition.
> 
> It is so broad that anymore I don't know what it means (the comforting thing is no one in the movement does either). The people in the movement need a more firm eccleisology in my estimation.



Being a Calvinist does not mean you are a Christian. Look at Fred Phelps. McLaren is a heretic.


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## No Longer A Libertine (Apr 16, 2007)

Founded on the Rock said:


> I know people in the Emergent church that are Christians. I am in no way defending McLaren, but I would probably qualify your statement in my opinion. There are actually "Calvinists" in the Emergent tradition.
> 
> It is so broad that anymore I don't know what it means (the comforting thing is no one in the movement does either). The people in the movement need a more firm eccleisology in my estimation.


Calvinists in Emergent circles are typically in the Karl Barth mold, but usually only as a way to justify universal atonement to the point of unitarianism in their thought.

Granted not all, I don't wish to blanket them all, but the Christian needs to leave that pit of vipers immediately.


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## Ivan (Apr 16, 2007)

If you look at the very bottom of my signature it will give you an idea of what I think of McLaren and the Emergent Movement.


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## VaughanRSmith (Apr 16, 2007)

Founded on the Rock said:


> I know people in the Emergent church that are Christians. I am in no way defending McLaren, but I would probably qualify your statement in my opinion. There are actually "Calvinists" in the Emergent tradition.
> 
> It is so broad that anymore I don't know what it means (the comforting thing is no one in the movement does either). The people in the movement need a more firm eccleisology in my estimation.


I think that my statement still stands. All people need a real Christ, but those caught up in the emergent movement are being shown a false gospel. I also use the distinction between emerging/emergent that I think Mark Driscoll uses. Emerging = , Emergent =


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## VaughanRSmith (Apr 16, 2007)

No Longer A Libertine said:


> Calvinists in Emergent circles are typically in the Karl Barth mold, but usually only as a way to justify universal atonement to the point of unitarianism in their thought.
> 
> Granted not all, I don't wish to blanket them all, but the Christian needs to leave that pit of vipers immediately.


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## No Longer A Libertine (Apr 16, 2007)

I just listened to the first interview and was shocked, he sounds like he'd fit in with the Seventh Day Adventists with his disdain for the thought of eternal punishment and subtle works based application of his faith.


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## Bandguy (Apr 16, 2007)

joshua said:


> I thought Fred Phelps was a hyper-Calvinist?



Well, according to Caner, that is all Calvinists.


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## etexas (Apr 16, 2007)

Exagorazo said:


> Has anybody listened to the interview with Brian McLaren on the Bleeding Purple podcast? I had never actually heard anything he had said or written in the past, and one of my friends loves him and his theology. I just listened to it, and now have no trouble in saying that the man is no Christian at all. Please pray for the people trapped in the emergent movement, they need a real Christ.
> 
> If you haven't heard them, here are the links.
> 
> ...


Good call......false God.......false Gospel. No Gospel.


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## Founded on the Rock (Apr 16, 2007)

Exagorazo said:


> I think that my statement still stands. All people need a real Christ, but those caught up in the emergent movement are being shown a false gospel. I also use the distinction between emerging/emergent that I think Mark Driscoll uses. Emerging = , Emergent =



That is simply not true my friend. In some emerging circles, the Gospel is not being taught. Again, the emergent movement is very broad but I know FOR A FACT that not everyone involved with the emergent (or emerging) movement is being taught a false gospel. Are they seriously confused, YES, but are they being taught a false gospel in every single situation... NO.

Again, because the movement is so fresh and young it is really tough to pin some of these people down, but I believe it is very dangerous when you start saying the emergent movement is a false gospel...


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## Founded on the Rock (Apr 16, 2007)

Bandguy said:


> Being a Calvinist does not mean you are a Christian. Look at Fred Phelps. McLaren is a heretic.



I never said it was, but it goes to show that their soteriology is not a false gospel. 

And I certainly agree, McLaren is a heretic, but to say that McLaren is the spokesperson for the ENTIRETY of the movement is false. I understand it is frustrating, but the emergent movement is so fluid that you can't single out one guy and say that he is the spokesperson for the entire movement...


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## VaughanRSmith (Apr 16, 2007)

Founded on the Rock said:


> That is simply not true my friend. In some emerging circles, the Gospel is not being taught. Again, the emergent movement is very broad but I know FOR A FACT that not everyone involved with the emergent (or emerging) movement is being taught a false gospel. Are they seriously confused, YES, but are they being taught a false gospel in every single situation... NO.
> 
> Again, because the movement is so fresh and young it is really tough to pin some of these people down, but I believe it is very dangerous when you start saying the emergent movement is a false gospel...


Maybe you are unfamiliar with Driscoll's differentiation between the _emerging _churches and the _emergent _churches. *Emerging *churches are those who are exploring new ways of "doing church" (whatever that means), yet still in some way hold to orthodoxy. *Emergent *churches, on the other hand, are heretical and anti-Christian. 

Both are troubling, but one is more than the other. I would rather sit under Mark Driscoll's preaching than any sub-Christian trash McLaren or his cronies put out.


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## JasonGoodwin (Apr 18, 2007)

Guys, the Christian Research Network has done numerous write-ups on the Emergent crowd (and none of them flattering). As a result, they've received the ire of those false teachers.

For more info, go to www.christianresearchnetwork.com. (Watch your spelling. If you put an "s" at the end of "network", it takes you to a "liberal Christian" website that absolute hates Ingrid Schlueter and Ken Silva with no good reason.)


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## staythecourse (Apr 18, 2007)

*Well-spoken hereitc*

McClaren is a well-spoken heretic. How terrible for him that he cannot fathom a substitutionary punishment for those that deserved it. Does he have no understading of atonement? God help him to see truth.


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## MICWARFIELD (Apr 18, 2007)

McLaren has been the guest speaker at, and endorses the Open Door Community Church which has a homosexual pastor. They celebrate gayness there. Tony Campolo and his wife are also great supporters of this so called church. Check this link http://www.sherwoodopendoor.org/gallery2006.html. Also, check their main page.


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## VaughanRSmith (Apr 18, 2007)

MICWARFIELD said:


> McLaren has been the guest speaker at, and endorses the Open Door Community Church which has a homosexual pastor. They celebrate gayness there. Tony Campolo and his wife are also great supporters of this so called church. Check this link http://www.sherwoodopendoor.org/gallery2006.html. Also, check their main page.


This is extremely disturbing.


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## kvanlaan (Apr 19, 2007)

Um, this shot in the center is the 'pastor' and his 'partner' in a 'Brokeback' pose at the "Oscar Watch Evening". A church event no doubt approaching or even eclipsing Easter in theological significance.







May I just say, with all honesty and sincerity:


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## staythecourse (Apr 19, 2007)

*Now I can say*

The man? that introduced McLaren on the pod cast sounded very effeminent. Gave me the heebie geebies.


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## kvanlaan (Apr 19, 2007)

He's actually married, with a child (I checked). (Because I wondered).


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## staythecourse (Apr 19, 2007)

*Good to hear*

Androgeny is pretty prevelant in our culture and that guys voice is an example of _____________ I don't know what to put there. Getting really close to the edge of masculinity and feminity?


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## Bladestunner316 (Apr 19, 2007)

That open door church is very interesting.


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## panta dokimazete (Apr 19, 2007)

Exagorazo said:


> Maybe you are unfamiliar with Driscoll's differentiation between the _emerging _churches and the _emergent _churches. *Emerging *churches are those who are exploring new ways of "doing church" (whatever that means), yet still in some way hold to orthodoxy. *Emergent *churches, on the other hand, are heretical and anti-Christian.
> 
> Both are troubling, but one is more than the other. I would rather sit under Mark Driscoll's preaching than any sub-Christian trash McLaren or his cronies put out.




Yah - My pastor and I had to make a mnemonic for the theology - Emergen*T* = Tainted | Emergin*G* = Good


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## panta dokimazete (Apr 19, 2007)

staythecourse said:


> Androgeny is pretty prevelant in our culture and that guys voice is an example of _____________ I don't know what to put there. Getting really close to the edge of masculinity and feminity?



"feminization"

"gender reidentification"


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## caddy (Apr 19, 2007)

I have heard of Phelps before, but that is about it. Checked him out...and wow:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps

Sad:  




Bandguy said:


> Being a Calvinist does not mean you are a Christian. Look at Fred Phelps. McLaren is a heretic.


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## Staphlobob (Apr 19, 2007)

caddy said:


> I have heard of Phelps before, but that is about it. Checked him out...and wow:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps
> 
> Sad:




Question: Who would you rather spend a weekend listening to ... Phelps or McClaren?  

How about the choice of having a leg sawn off instead?


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## kvanlaan (Apr 19, 2007)

Take the leg, please. Heck, take 'em both. And my wallet.


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## alwaysreforming (Apr 19, 2007)

staythecourse said:


> The man? that introduced McLaren on the pod cast sounded very effeminent. Gave me the heebie geebies.




Yeah, he sounded like a complete wussie-boy! Some of his "questions" roamed around aimlessly for 5 minutes...more like an extended "whine" than a question. What a bore that guy is!

I guess when you have no content in your movement, there really is not much to talk about.


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## KMK (Apr 19, 2007)

Ivan said:


> If you look at the very bottom of my signature it will give you an idea of what I think of McLaren and the Emergent Movement.



Whose quote is that BTW?


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## JasonGoodwin (Apr 19, 2007)

KMK said:


> Whose quote is that BTW?



My guess is that since there's a pic of Martyn Lloyd-Jones right at the end of it, that's who it may be.


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## JasonGoodwin (Apr 19, 2007)

Staphlobob said:


> Question: Who would you rather spend a weekend listening to ... Phelps or McClaren?
> 
> How about the choice of having a leg sawn off instead?


I have a sick, twisted way of looking at things sometimes, so when I read the above, it made me think of an old Far Side (Gary Larson) comic. Two crusty old sailors were sitting at a bar with beers in hand. One says to the other, "Well, that ain't a bad story, but let me tell you about the time I lost _this!_. He pointed to his wooden leg. At the same time, his fellow sailor has his hat cocked like he's facing him, but his head is wooden as well.

Does anyone remember this?


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## Ivan (Apr 19, 2007)

KMK said:


> Whose quote is that BTW?



Sorry I haven't seen this and responded sooner...been in my seminar.

Yes, it's the Doctor...Lloyd-Jones.


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## Staphlobob (Apr 19, 2007)

JasonGoodwin said:


> I have a sick, twisted way of looking at things sometimes, so when I read the above, it made me think of an old Far Side (Gary Larson) comic. Two crusty old sailors were sitting at a bar with beers in hand. One says to the other, "Well, that ain't a bad story, but let me tell you about the time I lost _this!_. He pointed to his wooden leg. At the same time, his fellow sailor has his hat cocked like he's facing him, but his head is wooden as well.
> 
> Does anyone remember this?




I loved The Far Side, but I don't remember that one. (Wish I did though.)


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## kvanlaan (Apr 19, 2007)

I listened through both of the two parts twice. What struck me was that the Holy Spirit seemed to be missing entirely. It was an intellectual discussion that made the irrational points of Christianity seem like something needing to be removed. "How can I trust Him as God if He...." "An infinite amount of punishment for a finite being just _isn't fair_..." (whiny emphasis mine.)

One other creepy thing: MacLaren's voice actually sounds a little like Joel Beeke at times - that really irritated me in addition to the creep factor.

What about the idea of Gehenna as the destruction of the Jerusalem and the trials of AD 67-70?

There is no hell. Huh. So all of Christ's discussion and admonishments on the topic of judgment have already taken place?


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