# Compelled to Sin



## blhowes (May 22, 2006)

I'm trying to think of an answer from the scriptures to a question my youngest son just asked me. Maybe somebody could help me out.

He asked, "If somebody was holding a gun to your head, and told you you either had to sin (like rob a bank or something) or he'd shoot you through the temple, what would you do? Would it be ok to sin? I told him I didn't know what I'd do.

I'm trying to think of verses that would give guidance about what to do in such a situation. Which verses do you think would apply in such a situation? 

Sometimes we can do things in self-defense (that's what I've always heard) that normally would be a sin, but when its self defense it wouldn't be a sin. Maybe the answer to my son's question is along the lines of self defense. Which scriptures justify doing things that are normally sinful when its done in self defense?

Thanks,
Bob 

PS. Why can't kids just ask questions like, "Who made the butterflies?"

[Edited on 5-22-2006 by blhowes]


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## Puddleglum (May 22, 2006)

I seem to remember my pastor saying no, it wouldn't be . . . but I can't remember why - good question!


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## Peter (May 22, 2006)

If it is truly sin there would be no question, the choice is to refuse and die. This is a truth I know well propositionally but fall woefully short of demonstrating it in practice. 'the good that I would I do not, but the evil which I would not that do I'


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## blhowes (May 22, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Puddleglum_
> I seem to remember my pastor saying no, it wouldn't be . . . but I can't remember why - good question!


Its still early. Give him a call. (jk)


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## blhowes (May 22, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Peter_
> If it is truly sin there would be no question, the choice is to refuse and die. This is a truth I know well propositionally but fall woefully short of demonstrating it in practice. 'the good that I would I do not, but the evil which I would not that do I'


This may be bordering on situation ethics, but are there times when, perhaps for self-defense reasons, sin isn't sin? Or is sin always sin, regardless.

Some say its ok scripturally to defend your family against intruders because its self defense. Given my son's question, does it matter whose head the gun (such morbid thoughts) is pointed at. What if its one's spouse. You're given the choice of robbing a bank or your spouse dies. Stealing is a sin, but robbing the bank (whose interest rates are too high, anyway) would save your spouse's life. 

If its ok to rob the bank to save your spouse's life because its self defense, which is true:
1. It wouldn't be a sin in this case.
2. It'd still be a sin, but God would say its ok.
3. Neither 1 nor 2


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## SRoper (May 22, 2006)

I used to think that either choice was a bad choice, and one had to choose the lesser of the two evils. Now, however, I think that we are not culpable for surrendering our life in such a situation, so that choice is not sinful.

Self-defense does not suspend the law so that you can do something that is ordinarily sinful. If you are attacked, you are allowed to risk your attacker's life if your intention is to save your own. One can think of other situations where you can lawfully risk the life of yourself and others to achieve a good end, so it is not as if self-defense is some special case.


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## Peter (May 22, 2006)

> _Originally posted by blhowes_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Peter_
> ...



no.2 must be rejected outright. God never says sin is ok. If God where ever to even approve of sin he would instantly cease to be God. Bob, my inclination would be that if someone threatened our life or someone else's if we did not commit a sin, we should acquiesce to this hard providence or if possible try to prevent it in a lawful manner. I say if someone made us choose to swear or he would destroy the whole world we should let him kill us all. To press the point further, the everlasting torments of hell are to be chosen before least sinful thought. Think of this, Christ endured the full cup of God's wrath to save us but he would have let the whole world perish if he had to commit the least sin to save us. If you haven't read it, I recommend Jerremiah Burroughs "Evil of Evils".


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## DTK (May 22, 2006)

> _Originally posted by blhowes_
> I'm trying to think of an answer from the scriptures to a question my youngest son just asked me. Maybe somebody could help me out.
> 
> He asked, "If somebody was holding a gun to your head, and told you you either had to sin (like rob a bank or something) or he'd shoot you through the temple, what would you do? Would it be ok to sin? I told him I didn't know what I'd do.
> ...



This is a common kind of question that children ask. I remember that I received what seemed, at the time when she was growing up, a thousand questions like this from my daughter, and I sought to answer her the same way each and every time she asked one. I would tell her...

1) None of us can live in the land of "IF." (Almost everyone one of her questions was prefaced with the little word "IF."

2) It is difficult to say what we would or would not do in any given set of circumstances, but we need to trust God that, by His grace, He will give us the wisdom to know what to do when faced with such any difficult situation. And then I would remind her of this passage...


> Matthew 10:19-20
> 19 "But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; 20 "for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.


I told her that trust in God relieves us of the burden of making such a decision.

DTK


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## gregbed (May 22, 2006)

> _Originally posted by blhowes_
> He asked, "If somebody was holding a gun to your head, and told you you either had to sin (like rob a bank or something) or he'd shoot you through the temple, what would you do? Would it be ok to sin? I told him I didn't know what I'd do.
> 
> Thanks,
> ...



I'm pretty sure I rob the bank and sin. I base this on the fact that in the course of a week (ok, a day) I will choose for my own self-interest over the glory of God when a whole lot less is at stake.
I don't mean to be flip about sin, but I realize its pervasiveness even when I have been freed from its bondage.
I wonder if a flirtation with perfectionism isn't behind our asking of these types of question. This is not to condemn the question (gosh, it was just a little kid, what's the matter with me?). But it is to ask what is behind the question. Is it the fear that I was going to have a perfect week (ok. day) and then it was going to be spoiled by someone holding a gun to my head and making me sin?


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## blhowes (May 23, 2006)

> _Originally posted by gregbed_
> I'm pretty sure I rob the bank and sin. I base this on the fact that in the course of a week (ok, a day) I will choose for my own self-interest over the glory of God when a whole lot less is at stake.
> I don't mean to be flip about sin, but I realize its pervasiveness even when I have been freed from its bondage. I wonder if a flirtation with perfectionism isn't behind our asking of these types of question. This is not to condemn the question (gosh, it was just a little kid, what's the matter with me?). But it is to ask what is behind the question. Is it the fear that I was going to have a perfect week (ok. day) and then it was going to be spoiled by someone holding a gun to my head and making me sin?


I don't know if a flirtation with perfectionism is behind asking these types of questions, but I do think there are two parts: "what would I do and what should I do?" As to what would I do, I think I'll still go with my response to my son - I don't know. You really don't know until you're in the situation. Given, as you mentioned, my own track record for choosing my own self-interest over God's glory over lesser things, chances are I'd rob the bank, or whatever. But who knows. It might be one of those tough days at work, where you're pushed to your limit, you go home tired and exhausted, and you really don't care about much of anything..."Sure, go ahead"...you just don't know.

The main point for the question in this thread is what _should_ I do. I hesitate to tell my son that in that situation I would definitely choose to sin. I want to give him good principles to live by. I don't want to give him the idea that we can haphazardly choose when we should and shouldn't sin, simply based on our perceptions of any particular situation. Therefore, the appeal to the scriptures. What _should_ we do?

[Edited on 5-23-2006 by blhowes]


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## CDM (May 23, 2006)

> He asked, "If somebody was holding a gun to your head, and told you you either had to sin (like rob a bank or something) or he'd shoot you through the temple, what would you do? Would it be ok to sin? I told him I didn't know what I'd do.



Is our Holy God's command _Thou shalt not steal_

Or,

_Thou shalt not steal (unless your life depended on it, wink, wink)_

Maybe the question is hard for many to answer because "robbing a {mean old} bank" isn't _that_ bad.

Since we are speaking hypothetically, let's change the sin in hopes of clarifying things. What if the threatener said, "MURDER someone else or I'll murder you". So instead of the 8th commandment, let's switch it to the 6th commandment.

Any takers?

We are to obey God and trust his Providence. Not obey God as long as it looks like it will work out in the end.

[Edited on 5-23-2006 by mangum]


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## Peter (May 23, 2006)

> _Originally posted by gregbed_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by blhowes_
> ...



Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I'm not saying it possible, nonetheless, its our duty. Sin must never chosen over affliction.



> Since we are speaking hypothetically, let's change the sin in hopes of clarifying things. What if the threatener said, "MURDER someone else or I'll murder you". So instead of the 8th commandment, let's switch it to the 6th commandment.



Or, speaking hypothetically, "think covetously of what's your neighbors or I'll destroy the entire world." Burroughs would say that chosing the least sin rather then the destruction of the world is an evil choice. If we understand the infinitness of God's holiness and the consequent infinitness of sin we'll understand the choice. 

Sin wishes God weren't so holy that I could have my lust. Which is actually striking at the very existence of God, b.c. if he wasnt perfectly holy he would cease to be God. Sin is professing that there is not enough good in God for my satisfaction. God is the overflowing fountain of all good. The good of the creature is from Him. We may enjoy it any way that is lawful. But sin is not of him and to go to sin is to say God is not good enough. God is an infinitely glorious being, failure to glorify him through sin is therefore an infinite evil. The pains of hell forever are not so bad as one little sin.


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## satz (May 23, 2006)

Quite a convicting thread.

Good comments guys.


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## Cheshire Cat (May 24, 2006)

> _Originally posted by mangum_
> 
> 
> > He asked, "If somebody was holding a gun to your head, and told you you either had to sin (like rob a bank or something) or he'd shoot you through the temple, what would you do? Would it be ok to sin? I told him I didn't know what I'd do.
> ...


To put it on the flipside, what if they told you to steal a candybar or else they would blow off your sons head?


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## ~~Susita~~ (May 24, 2006)

This is quite the thread.

The response I agree with most is:



> 1) None of us can live in the land of "IF."
> 
> 2) It is difficult to say what we would or would not do in any given set of circumstances, but we need to trust God that, by His grace, He will give us the wisdom to know what to do when faced with such a difficult situation. And then I would remind her of this passage...
> Matthew 10:19-20
> ...



I freely admit that if it came down to some other person's life being threatened and if I had any doubts as to their salvation, I would probably commit the deed. If it was my life, however, under the present circumstances (no one pointing a gun at my head at the moment) I would probably say no.

We can't know for certain what we would do in such a time, we have to rely on God.


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## gregbed (May 26, 2006)

> _Originally posted by blhowes_
> The main point for the question in this thread is what _should_ I do. I hesitate to tell my son that in that situation I would definitely choose to sin. I want to give him good principles to live by. I don't want to give him the idea that we can haphazardly choose when we should and shouldn't sin, simply based on our perceptions of any particular situation. Therefore, the appeal to the scriptures. What _should_ we do?
> 
> [Edited on 5-23-2006 by blhowes]



I didn't mean to convey a haphazard approach to sin rather was trying to honestly evaluate what I would do. On further reflection, in thinking of the future, I should have more anticipation for the grace of God to empower for each situation.
I would still want to know more of what concern is behind the question. Even though the scenario isn't likely to ever be encountered, the concern behind it is most likely one with far reaching implications. It could be his question is "Is unlawful behavior always sin?" or it could be "what are the consequences of my sin to my relationship with God?"
Taking it as an ethical question, I am trying to recall some Biblical accounts where the person violates a stated law of God and seems to have the approval of God despite that. The first one that comes to mind is Rahab (Joshua 2:1-24). She lies in the furtherance of the protection of the spies and the NT heaps praise on her (Heb 11:31, James 2:25). Another is David's eating the showbread (1 Sam 21:1-9). Jesus approves of it in Matt. 12:1-7 even though He states that it was unlawful for them to eat it. Even if the Lord was only meant that it was unlawful according to the man devised laws that surrounded temple worship (and that doesn't appear to be the case) it would be odd for him to use it when so much deceit surrounds the entire account.
I am NOT making a case for situational ethics, just saying that maybe things aren't as 'cut-and-dried' as we would sometimes like them to be.
"Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?"


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## gregbed (May 26, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Peter_
> 
> Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.



You mean that verse wasn't only meant for the Jews?
Gosh, it was a lot easier being disp. ;>)


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