# The Decline of Christianity in the West?



## Puritan Sailor (May 24, 2007)

The Decline of Christianity in the West? A Contrarian View
T. David Gordon

http://www.opc.org/os.html?article_id=44

Here's the intro:


> If one is hapless enough to watch television or listen to conservative or religious (or conservative religious) radio, one hears endless rhetorical prefaces that assert the decline of Christianity in the industrialized West (or any of its sub-parts). In almost every case, this narrative of decline and fall is asserted without empirical, sociological, or historical evidence, based instead on extremely limited and highly selective anecdotal evidence.[1] Conservative Christians, for instance, routinely assume as the presupposition of their culture conversations that the sixties were a time of rejection of Christianity and Christian "values," after which our culture has experienced unmitigated decline.
> 
> 
> I have often wondered how African-American Christians responded to these statements, since (if they are in their middle-ages or beyond), they can likely recall a time when they could not dine in restaurants with whites, could not always vote in local elections, or could not sit in the front portion of a bus. One might argue that the "good old days" of the Eisenhower administration were not all that good for African-Americans, or for American Christians (who were as segregated as their non-Christian fellow-citizens), for that matter. Since that time, our culture has realized more than ever before the biblical truth of the unity of Adam's race, even by those who disbelieve in Adam. Our culture is more integrated, and racial bigotry and injustice are routinely decried (though still practiced, in some locales, though discreetly). Indeed, I can say as one reared in Richmond, Virginia in the fifties and sixties, that I believe that on this particular score, we are a far more Christian nation than we were when I was a child, and I am entirely delighted by the progress.
> ...



For those who have time to read the rest, any thoughts?


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## RamistThomist (May 24, 2007)

Its okay for the most part, but he is assuming, if I read him correctly, that 

1) any kind of cultural influence on the expressions of a faith is bad

and following from (1),

2) there exists a neutral ground for Christian faith to express itself.

To that I would respond

1) and 2)

people happen to express their faiths differently, and that should be obvious. There is nothing wrong, per se, with cultural window dressing, provided it is seen for what it is. There is nothing inherently wrong with the expressions of either the newly converted man from jungle Africa and the sophisticated urbanite at First Presbyterian. (there are, of course, other factors at play).

Now, if we were to drop the cultural baggage, what would we put in its place? Ah, that's the hard part. Even critiquing "Americanisms" in Christianity presupposes (which no Klinean will admit) that there is indeed a biblical blueprint for culture (how else could the American, Confederate, Brazilian, Emergent culture, etc be bad?).

More thoughts in a second.


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## VictorBravo (May 24, 2007)

Puritan Sailor said:


> The Decline of Christianity in the West? A Contrarian View
> T. David Gordon
> 
> http://www.opc.org/os.html?article_id=44
> ...



I'll mark it for reading. I've been working through this myself. I think it is interesting that he refers to the decline of "culture religion." I think there is a lot of truth to that. 

Culture is one thing. Christianity is bigger than culture. I'm trying to figure out the differences.


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## RamistThomist (May 24, 2007)

True, but the Klinean (and i bring that up because that is the paradigm from which Gordon functions) thinks that culture/religion can be divorced from one another, and that is impossible. 

Now *if* by culture religion he means slappy/clappy moral majority/republican/religious right person, then I agree with him absolutely.

The most important statement I have ever read on this comes from Henry Van Til: "Culture is religion externalized."


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## Puritan Sailor (May 24, 2007)

Draught Horse said:


> Now *if* by culture religion he means slappy/clappy moral majority/republican/religious right person, then I agree with him absolutely.



I do believe that is what he means by culture religion, is what we commonly call cultural Christianity or "traditional family values."


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## VictorBravo (May 24, 2007)

Draught Horse said:


> "Culture is religion externalized."



I think we are on the same page. I'm talking about the culture we see today as being an externalization of a false religion. To the extent that we place our hope in our institutions, political or otherwise, I think we are falling into idolatry. But that doesn't mean that I avoid the political or otherwise. It's where we live and breath.

I just don't place my faith in it.


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## Dieter Schneider (May 24, 2007)

When nations are to perish in their sins, 'tis in the Church the leprosy begins. (W Cowper)


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## RamistThomist (May 24, 2007)

Puritan Sailor said:


> I do believe that is what he means by culture religion, is what we commonly call cultural Christianity or "traditional family values."



If by family values we mean "Jerry Falwell/Grand Ole Party" stuff, then I would agree with him on cultural religion.

If by family (traditional) values we mean (and this is what I seek to mean) "principles derived from Genesis-Revelation--or Matthew-Revelation, just to be safe and non-theocratic--and properly applied in our situations, then I must disagree that cultural religion is a bad thing.


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## Puritan Sailor (May 24, 2007)

Draught Horse said:


> If by family values we mean "Jerry Falwell/Grand Ole Party" stuff, then I would agree with him on cultural religion.


This is what I think he's refering to. And I agree with him on that point. The less neo-Phariseeism running astray in the name of Christianity the better. 



> If by family (traditional) values we mean (and this is what I seek to mean) "principles derived from Genesis-Revelation--or Matthew-Revelation, just to be safe and non-theocratic--and properly applied in our situations, then I must disagree that cultural religion is a bad thing.



That is not what the polemics in our culture at large mean by the term.


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## RamistThomist (May 24, 2007)

Puritan Sailor said:


> That is not what the polemics in our culture at large mean by the term.



T...r...u...e

Maybe I am in conspiracy mode and am reading what Gordon wants to say out loud but does not (see his defense of Lee Irons defense of gay unions and his essay on the insufficiency of Scripture). I agree, the quicker the GOPer/evanjellyfish culture dies, the better. I am in agreement with him on that point.

However, he would not like the inferences I draw from the above statement. But since that is not under discussion at the moment, I will hold my peace.


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