# "God Bless America" in Worship?



## ServantOfKing (Jul 3, 2006)

*\"God Bless America\" in Worship?*

Yesterday I went to a church and the closing song after the sermon was "God Bless America." I know that the song is sort of a prayer, but for some reason it really bothered me. 
Is this song appropriate for worship?



[Edited on 7-21-2006 by ServantOfKing]


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## crhoades (Jul 3, 2006)

Not until America collectively sings Psalm 51...


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## Ivan (Jul 3, 2006)

> _Originally posted by crhoades_
> Not until America collectively sings Psalm 51...



Whoa! That was a good comment!


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## CDM (Jul 3, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Ivan_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by crhoades_
> ...


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Jul 3, 2006)

Its why we left the last church - parades on Sunday for 4th of July, and anything else that warranted one. I don't find that in the Regulative Principle.


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## panta dokimazete (Jul 3, 2006)

I was struggling with this very thing last week. My pastor (a Reformed leaning brother, but still a bit of a path to travel - pray for him and me!) wanted a couple of "patriotic" tunes at the beginning of the service.

I respectfully disagreed, arguing "We come to the worship service to worship and sing to God, not the State."

He pressed, I relented, since I would be away and was not directing the worship service.

I found out today that the Lord worked it out providentially so that those songs were not done in the service.

Neat! 

-JD


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## py3ak (Jul 3, 2006)

"We come to worship service to worship and sing to god, not the State."

Well done.


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## Augusta (Jul 3, 2006)

They snuck in a couple of patriotic songs at my church also. They did it during the offering. Our red flags started going up immediately. The offering is an important part of worship as well and it also is to God. Why they thought that would be ok is beyond me. 

This is what happens when there are arbitrary rules in worship. This is why the RPW is so important in our churches.


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## NaphtaliPress (Jul 3, 2006)

We don't have an offering time in public worship so thankfully no offertory needed.


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## rmhainlen (Jul 3, 2006)

hmm...last sunday the songs we sang coincided with the message, which had nothing to do really with the fourth. (except for the frist couple mins when the pastor talked about the fourth then he moved on with his message.)


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## Pilgrim (Jul 3, 2006)

No "patriotic" songs at our services yesterday.

A related question is, how many churches have an American flag in the sanctuary? This also would seem to be a clear violation of the RPW.


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## Contra_Mundum (Jul 3, 2006)

Flags are totally inappropriate.

Why not just put up a picture of the current president? Or that "last great President we had!" Some churches could be Democrat, others Republican! A visible demonstration of our unity. I'm sure God appreciates sharing his glory/allegiance with another, right? God loves patriotism! God loves America! America is special! America! America! (god) shed his grace on ME! ME! ME! God loves flags.

When the state mandates flag display in church, who will defy them? Who will take the one they've had there for years and throw it out then?


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## jfschultz (Jul 3, 2006)

> _Originally posted by ServantOfKing_
> Yesterday I went to a church (reformed baptist) and the closing song after the sermon was "God Bless America." I know that the song is sort of a prayer, but for some reason it really bothered me.
> Is this song appropriate for worship?



I understand 100%. My son's girl friend invited us to her family's church. The only hymn was "Eternal Father strong to save." The only scripture reference was Joshua 1:6 to introduce a song relative to the Columbia disaster. 

I made a point, more than normal, to make a bee-line to Riveroaks for the evening service and the Lord's Supper!


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## Bladestunner316 (Jul 3, 2006)

No flag and no song but both are done at my church


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## jaybird0827 (Jul 3, 2006)

> _Originally posted by crhoades_
> Not until America collectively sings Psalm 51...



The *church in America* should collectively sing Psalm 51.

_Jay_


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Jul 3, 2006)

Please do not think me anti-American but such patriotism IN CHURCH only leads to division and a lack of unity. What if a traveller is coming through from another country and sees the flag or stops by and hears "God Bless America" played. Instantly they are left out of this and feel like they are not welcome.


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## Pilgrim (Jul 3, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Abd_Yesua_alMasih_
> Please do not think me anti-American but such patriotism IN CHURCH only leads to division and a lack of unity. What if a traveller is coming through from another country and sees the flag or stops by and hears "God Bless America" played. Instantly they are left out of this and feel like they are not welcome.



Fraser, 

If you read the whole thread, you'll see there's no danger of thinking you anti-American for this. The use of the song and others is opposed on the grounds of the RPW. But thank you for posting this since it is certainly another consideration to take into account.


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## Ivan (Jul 3, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Contra_Mundum_
> America! America! (god) shed his grace on ME! ME! ME!



That pretty much describes the mindset of people in our country.


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## Pilgrim (Jul 3, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Ivan_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Contra_Mundum_
> ...


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## py3ak (Jul 4, 2006)

If we're going to put up pictures of our presidents I call dibs on Millard Fillmore. I would also like to burn sandalwood incense to it. Then I defy anyone to question my supreme commitment to Americanism as the way, the truth, and the only life worth living.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Jul 4, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Pilgrim_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Abd_Yesua_alMasih_
> ...


Thank you for your support. I indeed did read the thread but am sensitive to insulting peoples patriotic feelings. I have noticed that Americans can talk about their own society and talk about errors but foreigners can not. I just wanted to be careful.


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## Puritan Sailor (Jul 4, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Abd_Yesua_alMasih_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Pilgrim_
> ...



Just curious Fraser, 
Do they have this problem in New Zealand? Do the churches ever get too patriotic like ours? I've never been there so I have no clue what the culture is like.


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## jaybird0827 (Jul 4, 2006)

I even have a problem singing a metrical Psalm to the tune "Materna" (O beautiful for spacious skies ...) because it's hard to shut out America the Beautiful while trying to focus on the Psalm.

_Jay_


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## rmhainlen (Jul 4, 2006)

The church we attend now, does not put up the flag although every church I remember going to has put up the flag.


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## xcrunner12 (Jul 4, 2006)

This thread brings up one of my "favorite" memories about my old church. Last 4th of July we sang the national anthem as the minister walked down the aisle carrying the American flag i felt like i was in a socialist run church worshipping the State


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## Richard King (Jul 4, 2006)

You know this flag waving in church never would have bothered me before I met the PCA boys. Now it sickens me. Makes me wonder what else I should be bothered by that I am still blind to.


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## rmhainlen (Jul 5, 2006)

> _Originally posted by xcrunner12_
> This thread brings up one of my "favorite" memories about my old church. Last 4th of July we sang the national anthem as the minister walked down the aisle carrying the American flag i felt like i was in a socialist run church worshipping the State



What church was that, Eric?

Was this in Indy?

That scares me.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Jul 5, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Puritan Sailor_
> Just curious Fraser,
> Do they have this problem in New Zealand? Do the churches ever get too patriotic like ours? I've never been there so I have no clue what the culture is like.


I have heard the anthem sung once or twice in some pentacostal churches but on the whole we are not a very patriotic people and besides, the anthem is not all that jazzed up and I only recently knew how to sing it... in fact I would have trouble now. Then there is the issue of which language to sing it in - English being the official but then their is the Maori which is Politically Correct.


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## BaptistCanuk (Jul 17, 2006)

Good thread people.

This is a tough issue. I'm not a firm believer in the "RPW" so esteemed among us (I won't argue about it though), but I do believe it is wrong to sing patriotic songs in worship. It is definitely wrong to put flags up in the sanctuary. What next? The bodies of deceased presidents?

However, (back to the patriotic songs) what if people are singing them out of a thankful heart to God? Motives matter more than the act I guess.


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## el calvinist (Jul 17, 2006)

> _Originally posted by BaptistCanuk_
> 
> However, (back to the patriotic songs) what if people are singing them out of a thankful heart to God? Motives matter more than the act I guess.



Tell that to Uzzah! (2 Sam 6:6-8;1 Chron. 13:9,10)


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## jaybird0827 (Jul 17, 2006)

> _Originally posted by el calvinist_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by BaptistCanuk_
> ...



or Nadab and Abihu, for that matter.


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## BaptistCanuk (Jul 17, 2006)

> _Originally posted by el calvinist_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by BaptistCanuk_
> ...



No need to shout at me. Have you ever been wrong?

As for the other dudes...were they singing patriotic songs? If they were, that's news to me.


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## Contra_Mundum (Jul 17, 2006)

{Moderating}
Brian, well done, a measured response to a shoot-from -the-lip response.

For everyone, try answering questions in a way that you would appreciate someone answering you, if you gave the question. For everyone here who just "instinctively knew" what reformed worship and the RPW was all about, and never needed a teacher, try to feel for those less fortunate who actually have to study the matter, who barely have any idea there is something historical and exegetical (and not just traditional) about worship.


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## Augusta (Jul 17, 2006)

Brian,

No one is shouting. Are you familiar with the men from scripture that were noted, namely Uzzah, Nadab, and Abihu? If you knew their stories you would understand the point being made. 

I think the issue you are having here is that Reformed Christians have completely different categories than modern Christians. It is quite literally another language and you don't speak it. Therefore like a person in a strange country you don't know the language or customs. 

If you stick around and read alot, especially the threads you disagree with or don't see the problem with, you will learn why we seem to have problems with things that are considered completely normal and even celebrated in most modern churches. You will start to see a where we are coming from. 

Please be patient and don't assume that everyone is attacking you or out to get you. Ask questions, but don't jump to conclusions because not everything is as it seems.


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## Contra_Mundum (Jul 17, 2006)

Actually, Augusta,
If I had to judge, I'd say that blatting out a Bible verse at someone, and following it with an exclamation point, really _shouts_ "you should know better!" I thought it was an inappropriate response to a genuine question.

Brian has been here a couple months now. He's had his share of correction. I thought it was a mature, measured response to a provacative post.


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## BaptistCanuk (Jul 17, 2006)

Thank you Bruce, I appreciate that. You were exactly right.

Thank you to the others for your comments as well. Everyone take care, and God bless you. I may not be on much for a week or two. Peace.


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## BaptistCanuk (Jul 17, 2006)

p.s. Yes, I'm familiar with the aforementioned people in the Bible. I just didn't think their situation was the same.


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## ServantOfKing (Jul 17, 2006)

So if I understand right- relating Nadab & Abihu to worship in the church today might lead us to a conclusion like - 
Offering something up to God and calling it worship - when it is not what he has prescribed for worship - is not safe nor glorifying to God? 
And one of those things that is offered up to God, called worship, and makes God mad might be singing a patriotic song in worship? 
Or am I misunderstanding?


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## Contra_Mundum (Jul 17, 2006)

Ashley,
Actually, I think there are a couple related, but distinct issues here.

What God disapproves of is our offering up to him something other than he asked for. And he has told us what he wants. So if we offer him something else--a product of our fallen, sinful minds at that--we are basically saying, "God, I hear you, but *I* think you should take this. It's just as good, in my estimation, maybe better." This is the sin of Cain.

The problem with the "patriotic ditty" (in my opinion) is something else. There is something special, and peculiar, about God's worship. It's meant for him, and him alone. Its partly reflected in the verse: "My glory I will not share with any other" (Is. 42:8). If we conflate our gathering to honor him, and honor others--whether it is a country, a benefactor, _mother,_--we are guilty of giving "the glory do HIS name" alone (Ps. 29:2) to others.

Now, may we thank God for his mercies on us as a secular people? Yes, and as a hymn-singer, I have no problem with singing. for example, "God of Our Fathers, Whose Almighty Hand." Because though it thanks God for his grace on the circumstances of our lives, there is no national pride in it. And there are similar Psalms that speak of God's grace to Israel, although we generally take God's special providence mentioned in them, and dedicate it to recognizing his care for his church.

I hope this is helpful.


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## ServantOfKing (Jul 18, 2006)

Thank you! That definitely makes sense. 
Does this only apply to prescribed worship services? Or does it apply to the church's functions as a whole? 
I guess what I am asking is, would it be okay for a church to collectively sing patriotic songs like "God Bless America" and others at a "special service/ performance" as long as it was prefaced that it was more entertainment/celebration and not meant to be a worship service? 
Or would that be offering something up to God that does not glorify His name alone since it is the local church doing it?


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## Puritanhead (Jul 18, 2006)

Good Heavens!!! Shame on all of you!!!! By _NOT_ saying the Pledge of Allegiance in church, you people are disrupting vital national unity and diminishing national resolve that is integral to winning the war on terrorism. By your seditious actions, you jeopardize national security, put our troops lives at risk and indeed you imperil the future of the whole human race.














COUGH-COUGH just kidding... I don't believe that either. Besides, the _Pledge_ was written by a socialist Francis Bellamy, and the words are not even accurate. "...one national indivisible..." (???) That's a very nationalistic, post-Lincolnian era quote if you ask me and anathema to the constitutional polity that our forefathers established in 1787, and fought for in 1776. 
:bigsmile:


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## Puritanhead (Jul 18, 2006)

Pledging Allegiance to the Omnipotent Lincolnian State by Thomas DiLorenzo

What's Conservative about the Pledge of Allegiance? by Gene Healy, Cato Institute

[Edited on 7-19-2006 by Puritanhead]


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## Contra_Mundum (Jul 18, 2006)

> _Originally posted by ServantOfKing_
> would it be okay for a church to collectively sing patriotic songs like "God Bless America" and others at a "special service/ performance" as long as it was prefaced that it was more entertainment/celebration and not meant to be a worship service?
> Or would that be offering something up to God that does not glorify His name alone since it is the local church doing it?


In my estimation, provided the gathering is not intended as a worship gathering, and provided that the gathering is honorable, if a fellowship of covenanting believers gathers for another purpose,--be that a church picnic, or a patriotic assembly--that is not in-and-of itself wrong.

I would offer a caution that regular gatherings that are not mainly fellowship (picnic versus patriotic) ought to be occasional, and not periodic, because such a commitment could easily begin to look like a "club" associated with the church. The purpose for the church could easily become obscured behind a different sort of message. And if you don't attend, does that mean others will think you "don't love the country?"

Christians can be good citizens without wearing their nationality on their sleeve. And the church always needs to be ready instantly to take what appears to be an "unpatriotic" stance any time the "patriotic" expectations run counter to biblical principles. In other words,, never forget where your true allegiance lies.

[Edited on 7-19-2006 by Contra_Mundum]


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## R. Scott Clark (Jul 18, 2006)

I agree with those who've expressed concerns, on the basis of the RPW, about such practices.

There is another ground, at which some have at least hinted, and that is the use of patriotic songs or symbols in divine worship is a manifest confusion of the two kingdoms, the civil and the ecclesiastical. 

Though we are commanded to pray for those in authority, we do not gather on the sabbath, under the Word, as citizens of a particular civil entity, but as citizens of the heavenly kingdom; as citizens of the eternal kingdom, the kingdom of God. 

rsc

[Edited on 7-19-2006 by R. Scott Clark]


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## Bladestunner316 (Jul 19, 2006)




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