# The (Non?) Importance of Prayer Meetings



## PaulMc

A couple of recent posts on the Reformation21 blog and some responses from D.G.Hart at oldlife.org on prayer meetings:

http://oldlife.org/2015/05/can-we-talk-about-prayer-meetings/

The death of prayer meetings - Reformation21 Blog

http://oldlife.org/2015/05/from-dgh...-meetings-submitted-on-2015-05-12-at-1052-am/


At our church we meet each Tuesday night for Bible study and for prayer, and I have considered it important to be there and make sure that I am every week. The responses above from Hart are thought-provoking, however...

What do the brethren here make of the discussion? Are corporate prayer meetings mandated in Scripture as a regular meeting that Christians should view as necessary to attend, or are the posts advocating their importance over-stepping the mark?

I know that Charles Spurgeon for one wrote strongly in support of the prayer meeting's importance - “We shall never see much change for the better in our churches in general until the prayer meeting occupies a higher place in the esteem of Christians.”


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## timmopussycat

It depends on the kind of prayer meeting. If the meeting is just to pray for the physical and personal needs of church members which is what prayer meetings have often come to, then no they are not essential to the life of the church. One or two close Christian friends can take these situations before the Lord. 

But if the prayer meeting majors on the impact of the gospel both in the church and on the surrounding world, then prayer meetings are one way to obey the commands given by our Lord in the Lord's prayer and repeated numerous times by the Apostle Paul in his letters. It is a sheer fact of history that major sustained growth in the churches holiness and numbers, not to mention major changes for the better in the surrounding cultures have followed when churches have been united and fervent in prayer for the success of the gospel. See especially Murray, Revival and Revivalism pp. 129, 130 for how prayer of this kind preceded the Second Great Awakening.


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## ChariotsofFire

What things did you find thought provoking in Hart's replies?


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## KMK

I haven't read all of the articles, but the problem with midweek prayer meetings is they often detract from the Lord's Day. The Bible does not say, "Remember Wednesday evenings to keep it holy." That said, I am all for prayer meetings on Sundays and family worship on every day.


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## Jack K

I've never yet seen a weekday prayer meeting—a true, honest, pleading-with-God prayer meeting—that ended up detracting from worship and other godly activities on Sunday. True prayer leads to a spiritual vitality that inevitably benefits the whole life of the church, especially its gathered worship. If voluntary, midweek prayer meetings are causing people to skip church and neglect godliness, I suspect the problem is superficial prayer rather than the time of the meeting.

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## Jeff S. Wiebe

With Jack K I respectfully oppose KMK's idea that a midweek prayer meeting, devoutly conducted, would detract from the Lord's Day. The nature of true piety is generally that the more you are devoutly involved in worship, prayer, the ministry of the Word, etc, the more you want to be. Christian maturity leads to an increased appetite for devotion, private and corporate.


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## Jack K

Jeff S. Wiebe said:


> With Jack K I respectfully oppose KMK's idea that a midweek prayer meeting, devoutly conducted, would detract from the Lord's Day. The nature of true piety is generally that the more you are devoutly involved in worship, prayer, the ministry of the Word, etc, the more you want to be. Christian maturity leads to an increased appetite for devotion, private and corporate.



To be fair, I think it was Dr. Hart's idea, not Ken's, and the concern behind it is a valid one. There could be people who attend a midweek prayer meeting when they should be doing other things and don't really have the time for it, but that's why it ought to be voluntary. As with any good thing, it _could_ be misused and surely has been. I just haven't observed any good prayer meetings that on the whole detract from other church life. Rather, they tend to help it.


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## TheOldCourse

Jack K said:


> Jeff S. Wiebe said:
> 
> 
> 
> With Jack K I respectfully oppose KMK's idea that a midweek prayer meeting, devoutly conducted, would detract from the Lord's Day. The nature of true piety is generally that the more you are devoutly involved in worship, prayer, the ministry of the Word, etc, the more you want to be. Christian maturity leads to an increased appetite for devotion, private and corporate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, I think it was Dr. Hart's idea, not Ken's, and the concern behind it is a valid one. There could be people who attend a midweek prayer meeting when they should be doing other things and don't really have the time for it, but that's why it ought to be voluntary. As with any good thing, it _could_ be misused and surely has been. I just haven't observed any good prayer meetings that on the whole detract from other church life. Rather, they tend to help it.
Click to expand...


How are you observing whether or not something detracts from church life? In my experience it has often been that those who see midweek prayer meetings as very important to church life often define a vibrant church life in terms of the congregation's "involvement" in church activities outside of public worship. In other words, it's usually a sort of begging the question as a sign of a vibrant church life encouraged by prayer meetings is people's attendance to prayer meetings. 

I'm sort of with DGH, while I don't think Matt 6 directly forbids prayer meetings (Calvin points out that it cannot be a simple prohibition of public prayer), it does suggest a certain caution that seems to be rarely heeded. It also so easily becomes a test for Christian piety where those who don't attend are often approached with an attitude of "Yeah, it's optional, by why wouldn't you?", in which it acquires the force of a command without being one and threatens Christian liberty. 

If it's kept truly voluntary it can be a fine thing for those so inclined to participate (though I admit that I am a bit uncomfortable with the federal nature of the prayers often spoken), but if it is seen as a ministry of the church itself it can easily threaten the sufficiency of public worship and, I think, has contributed to the neglect of the public means of grace in much of the evangelical world. Is a church neglecting, even in some small way, its congregation if it does not have such a meeting?

As an aside, is there a history of prayer meetings extending before the advent of pietism in the Reformed church? As far as I'm aware most midweek meetings in the church were for additional pastoral instruction or exhortation, but I'm not sure if lay-prayer were ever attached to those things.


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## Ryan J. Ross

I don't want to speak for anyone, but I think the substance of the point about midweeks detracting from the Lord's Day dealt not with the devotion and piety of the attendees, but the (unintended or unconscious, peradventure) esteeming of one day other than the first in the week following the Resurrection.

My guess is that Mr. Hansen's response is closest to the intent of KMK, though I remain open to correction.


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## MW

PaulMc said:


> What do the brethren here make of the discussion?



I prefer the "hart" of Psalm 42.


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## PaulMc

ChariotsofFire said:


> What things did you find thought provoking in Hart's replies?



I suppose that in the churches I've been in since I was converted (nearly seven years ago now) the midweek prayer meeting has always held an important position, such that people would be expected to attend for the most part. So perhaps I have overestimated the importance of the meeting in comparison to the Sabbath day - this point Hart brought up, as well as potentially being free to serve the Lord during the week in other ways, were the ones I hadn't particularly considered before.


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## mvdm

One must also keep in mind that Hart's mockery of mid week corporate prayer does not arise out of nowhere. He is devoted to a sharp dividing line between the sacred (lived out on Sunday at church) and secular ( lived out everywhere else). Hence, a mid week prayer meeting transgresses his ideal of living the dichotomous, "hyphenated" life where the exhibition of the Christian faith is confined primarily to corporate worship on the Sabbath.


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## KMK

PaulMc said:


> the midweek prayer meeting has always held an important position, such that people would be expected to attend for the most part.



This is the problem. There are two parts to the 4th Commandment and the only constraint put on Wednesday evening liberty is 'work'. "Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God..." To 'expect' people to set aside Wednesday evening for any other purpose than to 'do all their work', is to bind their conscience, and this is what midweek prayer meetings often do.


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## Jack K

I had no idea prayer meeting attendance feels so oppressive at many churches. Such meetings have always felt refreshing at churches I've belonged to, and never like a have-to-be-there event. I've benefited when I could, and I've always felt free not to attend when busy with work, family, or other efforts for Christ's kingdom, or even when I've just wanted to relax. It still sounds to me like the problem is not the time of the meeting but the tone of the meeting and the expectations that surround it.


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## Cymro

I would contend that the prayer meeting is an essential element in the life of the church. It
gives the membership opportunity to participate in worship; it allows the Minister and Session
to feel the pulse of the body; it often is a barometer that indicates the spiritual climate that prevails;
also the appetite of members can be assessed; the desires of those who are walking close are met;
the long wait for the next Sabbath is shortened by communal prayer mid week; and the the great urgent
concerns of the day can be fervently brought before the the throne of grace. There is also a corporate opportunity
to sue God for the reviving of the Kingdom of Christ in these days of declension. 
Who of God's children would not want to come before His presence with thanksgiving?


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## KMK

Jack K said:


> I had no idea prayer meeting attendance feels so oppressive at many churches.



Its not about 'feelings'. Midweek meetings may 'feel' awesome, and 'be' oppressive at the same time if attendance is expected. Churches are more obligated to encourage people to get all their work done on Wednesday than they are to encourage people to attend a midweek meeting.


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## KMK

Cymro said:


> I would contend that the prayer meeting is an essential element in the life of the church.



Are you saying prayer meetings on non-Sabbath days are essential?


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## Jack K

KMK said:


> if attendance is expected



But I'm emphasizing that attendance is NOT expected. Yes, such meetings might be oppressive (and feel that way too) if attendance is expected. The trick is a church culture and a confidence in Christ that allows midweek events to be offerred without that sense of obligation and with a spirit that builds people up as they await the next worship service rather than creating an alternative to Sunday.

We live in a culture that can be very isolating. Some believers benefit greatly from a midweek gathering. Others surely ought to skip it. A congregation well-grounded in Christ will be full of humble believers who're able to let each do what's helpful without judgmentalism, pressure, or any sense of obligation.


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## JimmyH

I've been attending a Wednesday night Bible study/prayer meeting for a few years now. Surrounded by the world, and its influences, it is a refreshing oasis and a recharging of my spiritual batteries. It offers me the opportunity of fellowship with other saints and has contributed to my developing and experiencing that love for, and by, our brothers and sisters in Christ that John writes about in his first epistle.


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## ZackF

Can there not be in existence any activity beyond weekly worship that is scheduled? Any good can become an idol or be manipulated legalistically. If that should become known in a local church it should be addressed swiftly but banning prayer meetings to prevent the possibility of them interfering with Lord's day worship seems silly. I haven't gone in a while but a group of men from my church meet twice-monthly to study the Standards. It is certainly not required. That also goes for Sunday School, small groups (usually involving a lot of prayer and prayer needs) or any scheduled or ad-hoc meeting between believers. These opportunities are there for the instruction, care and moral edification of the saints. These or other events could be used to bind consciences but that is not a necessary consequence. There seems to be a strain of Reformed piety that would have the lights out in the church building at all times save a couple of hours on the Lord's Day. Since we are encourage to come alongside our bretheren and bring our petitions to the Lord, why would we seek to quell it?


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## PaulMc

JimmyH said:


> I've been attending a Wednesday night Bible study/prayer meeting for a few years now. Surrounded by the world, and its influences, it is a refreshing oasis and a recharging of my spiritual batteries. It offers me the opportunity of fellowship with other saints and has contributed to my developing and experiencing that love for, and by, our brothers and sisters in Christ that John writes about in his first epistle.



This is how I have found our weeknight night meetings too - it is a blessing to meet together with the saints, study the Word and seek God's face together.


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## PaulMc

mvdm said:


> One must also keep in mind that Hart's mockery of mid week corporate prayer does not arise out of nowhere. He is devoted to a sharp dividing line between the sacred (lived out on Sunday at church) and secular ( lived out everywhere else). Hence, a mid week prayer meeting transgresses his ideal of living the dichotomous, "hyphenated" life where the exhibition of the Christian faith is confined primarily to corporate worship on the Sabbath.



Mark, I can understand from some of the points raised in Hart's posts that a midweek prayer meeting ought not to have compulsory attendance attached to it. But I don't get why he seems so against it, or why he (seemingly?) thinks that it's not a blessing for those who want to, and are able, to attend such meetings, and that presumably it's not a good idea for a church to hold corporate prayer meetings?


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## mvdm

PaulMc said:


> mvdm said:
> 
> 
> 
> One must also keep in mind that Hart's mockery of mid week corporate prayer does not arise out of nowhere. He is devoted to a sharp dividing line between the sacred (lived out on Sunday at church) and secular ( lived out everywhere else). Hence, a mid week prayer meeting transgresses his ideal of living the dichotomous, "hyphenated" life where the exhibition of the Christian faith is confined primarily to corporate worship on the Sabbath.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mark, I can understand from some of the points raised in Hart's posts that a midweek prayer meeting ought not to have compulsory attendance attached to it. But I don't get why he seems so against it, or why he (seemingly?) thinks that it's not a blessing for those who want to, and are able, to attend such meetings, and that presumably it's not a good idea for a church to hold corporate prayer meetings?
Click to expand...


Read his book "A Secular Faith". You will find further explanation/ exposition of the dualistic philosophy which gives rise to this sort of hostility toward the exercise of faith outside the Sabbath.


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## KMK

KS_Presby said:


> If that should become known in a local church it should be addressed swiftly but banning prayer meetings to prevent the possibility of them interfering with Lord's day worship seems silly.



Just for the record, I am not advocating that regular midweek meetings be banned. I am arguing that they should not be either explicitly or implicitly mandatory. If anything should be mandatory it is that everyone labor hard to get their work done.


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## Jeri Tanner

This discussion reminds me of the recent discussion about Sunday school, and it also has application to discussions about what musical instruments to use and what man-written songs to sing in the churches. None of these three things (Sunday school, mid-week prayer or small group meetings, or the use of musical instruments or uninspired songs) can be regulated by God's word because none of them are commanded, and isn't that where we get into difficulty? So it's not surprising that while some experience those things as great blessings, others experience them as negatives. It's hopelessly subjective. The practice of the local churches can vary greatly, and does. It's all up to one's particular church, pastors, sessions, etc.; there is no way to curb burdensome or less-than-ideal practices in these three areas within a local church by appealing to the word of God, since the word of God doesn't regulate them. And in all three of those practices the consciences of believers are potentially bound (not to be over-dramatic) and people are indeed thought to be less participatory than they should be if they avoid attendance at Sunday school, mid-week meetings or if they don't participate in the musical goings on. I hope this makes sense- what I'm saying is that there should be sympathy from those who do experience in their churches the freedom from the negative aspects that these three areas of practice can impose. In the world of less-than-ideal ecclesiastical situations many find themselves in, these cause often troubling and sometimes heartbreaking dilemmas; we would prefer there not be these differences. It would be wonderful if all churches said and meant it that participation in these things is entirely up to the individuals and families in the church; but that's just not the reality many find themselves in.

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## TheOldCourse

KMK said:


> KS_Presby said:
> 
> 
> 
> If that should become known in a local church it should be addressed swiftly but banning prayer meetings to prevent the possibility of them interfering with Lord's day worship seems silly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just for the record, I am not advocating that regular midweek meetings be banned. I am arguing that they should not be either explicitly or implicitly mandatory. If anything should be mandatory it is that everyone labor hard to get their work done.
Click to expand...


Likewise. It seems better to me to see these meetings as merely Christian fellowship amongst a number of church members (which is a good thing) rather than a ministry of a particular church itself. Once they're seen as officially sanctioned events in the life of the church, it's difficult to see them as anything but mandatory. The RPW is, in part, based on the sufficiency of Scripture in prescribing the elements necessary for acceptable worship and growth in grace. I think many who are perhaps a bit cautious about these types of events are mostly concerned to maintain this sufficiency. Did God neglect to prescribe a public institution that would be of great benefit in our sanctification?


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## MW

Jeri Tanner said:


> None of these three things (Sunday school, mid-week prayer or small group meetings, or the use of musical instruments or uninspired songs) can be regulated by God's word because none of them are commanded, and isn't that where we get into difficulty?



Technically, if the regulating authority of Scripture is confined to its letter, it would not be possible to show that public worship is commanded on the Lord's day.

1 Corinthians 12-14 is very clear on the body of Christ gathering together and the need to do all things according to commandment, unto edification, and in order. There is no limitation to a specific day.


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## Pilgrim

mvdm said:


> PaulMc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mvdm said:
> 
> 
> 
> One must also keep in mind that Hart's mockery of mid week corporate prayer does not arise out of nowhere. He is devoted to a sharp dividing line between the sacred (lived out on Sunday at church) and secular ( lived out everywhere else). Hence, a mid week prayer meeting transgresses his ideal of living the dichotomous, "hyphenated" life where the exhibition of the Christian faith is confined primarily to corporate worship on the Sabbath.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mark, I can understand from some of the points raised in Hart's posts that a midweek prayer meeting ought not to have compulsory attendance attached to it. But I don't get why he seems so against it, or why he (seemingly?) thinks that it's not a blessing for those who want to, and are able, to attend such meetings, and that presumably it's not a good idea for a church to hold corporate prayer meetings?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Read his book "A Secular Faith". You will find further explanation/ exposition of the dualistic philosophy which gives rise to this sort of hostility toward the exercise of faith outside the Sabbath.
Click to expand...


That's part of it but it may not be the half of it. His "High Chuch Presbyterianism" is the other part. See here: Touchstone Archives: Rediscovering Mother Kirk

Quotes below are from DGH's Touchstone essay. 



> *Probably the greatest hurdle within the Presbyterian tradition to a greater recognition of the importance of liturgy in the life of Christians is the legacy of Puritanism.*



It has always seemed to me that DGH throws out the baby with the bathwater when rejecting "pietism." In other words, it seems to me that he ends up inveighing against what many of our Reformed and Puritan forefathers would have regarded as genuine piety. Not only is he at odds with contemporary evangelicalism and the First Great Awakening but, by his own admission, with a good bit of the piety of the Second Reformation as well. (If I had read more Calvin to this point, I would know if some passages from the pen of the Genevan Reformer himself could also be marshaled against DGH's "anti-pietism" crusade.) 

Admittedly I haven't read many of his books. But from what I have seen, there seems to be little room for experimental religion in his thought. Based on the above linked essay, evidently he'd prefer a prayer book instead, maybe even in the home. The very idea of laypeople praying out loud, perhaps even Ruling Elders, seems to make him squirm. Does he make any distinction between the Puritan prayer closet and modern "quiet times?" In DGH's eyes, is Watson's piety only marginally better than Wesley's or even Wimber's? Is the difference between M'Cheyne and Beth Moore merely one of degree and not of kind? How about Hodge and Hinn? Are they both just revivalists with the former's tolerance of a little "Methodism" being the leaven that inevitably leads to "Holy Rolling" and "Holy Laughter?" 

He doesn't seem too fond of extemporaneous prayer on the part of the minister either. 
​


> Better to use the prayers deemed superior, even if prepared by saints of the past, than to give precedence to the words assembled by the current pastor simply because he is the one now given the responsibility for praying.





> If Presbyterians can assent to a detailed set of confessional and catechetical documents, *why not a book of common prayer?*



The high view of the Sabbath and not wanting to burden people aside, if reading prayers is preferable, why bother to assemble in the middle of the week anyway? 
​


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## PaulMc

JimmyH said:


> I've been attending a Wednesday night Bible study/prayer meeting for a few years now. Surrounded by the world, and its influences, it is a refreshing oasis and a recharging of my spiritual batteries. It offers me the opportunity of fellowship with other saints and has contributed to my developing and experiencing that love for, and by, our brothers and sisters in Christ that John writes about in his first epistle.



Or is such a blessing intended by God to be limited _only_ to the Sabbath day? Hart, in the comments section of his blog, says the following regarding Jimmy's post above:

"Isn’t that what Sunday is supposed to be? And are we wiser than God? He gave us one day, but we need two (or 1 1/2)."


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## PaulMc

In addition to my post above, is there any validity to an objection that there is no command to meet together except on Sabbath days (unless through providential calling of fast/prayer days etc) and therefore weekday meetings aren't allowable, and that in so doing we are being wiser than God who has given us the Sabbath day for these things?


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## NaphtaliPress

"_First Book of Discipline,_3 which says, _In great towns we think expedient, that every day there be either sermon or common
prayers,_ etc., where there is nothing of compulsion, or a forcing command, only there is an exhortation." 
3. [“First Book of Discipline” in Works of John Knox, ed. David Laing (1848; repr. New York:
AMS Press, 1966) 2.238.]
Gillespie, _English Popish Ceremonies _(2013) 52.


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## KMK

NaphtaliPress said:


> "_First Book of Discipline,_3 which says, _In great towns we think expedient, that every day there be either sermon or common
> prayers,_ etc., where there is nothing of compulsion, or a forcing command, only there is an exhortation."
> 3. [“First Book of Discipline” in Works of John Knox, ed. David Laing (1848; repr. New York:
> AMS Press, 1966) 2.238.]
> Gillespie, _English Popish Ceremonies _(2013) 52.


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## Peairtach

I don't understand this thing about the midweek prayer meeting, where there is often a short talk or exhortation with us, as being oppressive or legalistic. I suppose if you had to travel an awful long way, had certain kinds of work that you could be attending to in the evening, and were made to feel uncomfortable by the elders or congrgation for not attending, it would be understandable. Also if there were a whole load of PMs on every day of the week. Usually there is one in particular in my experience, often on Wednesday or Thursday.

I think if your congregation has a regular weekly PM, you might be ordinarily be expected to be there if you're a communicant member. Obviously it would be understood that the sick, mothers with young children, those with pressing agricultural and other work, those who would have to travel very long distances, etc, can't make it.

There is no reason why those who are not communicant members shouldn't feel free to attend also, although if prayer is by request they will not be asked to lead in prayer.

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## Peairtach

KMK said:


> KS_Presby said:
> 
> 
> 
> If that should become known in a local church it should be addressed swiftly but banning prayer meetings to prevent the possibility of them interfering with Lord's day worship seems silly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just for the record, I am not advocating that regular midweek meetings be banned. I am arguing that they should not be either explicitly or implicitly mandatory. If anything should be mandatory it is that everyone labor hard to get their work done.
Click to expand...


A lot of folk have their work done by 5 or 5:30 or 6, and the PM may be at 7, 7:30, or later.

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## MW

PaulMc said:


> In addition to my post above, is there any validity to an objection that there is no command to meet together except on Sabbath days (unless through providential calling of fast/prayer days etc) and therefore weekday meetings aren't allowable, and that in so doing we are being wiser than God who has given us the Sabbath day for these things?



Let's put it to the test. When do they hold their Session, Presbytery, Synodical, and General Assembly meetings? Do they pray at them, read the Bible, or do any other religious exercise? If so, on what grounds? When they do pastoral visitations to the home do they open the Bible and pray? Indeed, let's take a quick walk through the theological seminary (which is usually conducted along the lines of a parachurch organisation), and let's see if we can find an open Bible or times for prayer and worship. Why is it deemed appropriate to make use of other days of the week for these things while the congregation (the ordinary body which is instituted to engage in public worship) is confined to one day of the week? I would suggest that the objection could only find validity in a superstitious view of the holiness of the Lord's day.


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## Ryan J. Ross

Richard,

Please clarify. You stated that it is "understandable" to have a concern, if one is being made to feel uncomfortable for not attending. Then, you stated that one would be "expected" to be present, if there is a midweek. I am unsure about what you think. Is it appropriate for elders to assume attendance?


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## Ryan J. Ross

I think there is a may and must question. May elders institute midweek? Must members attend? If the answers are yes and then no, I am in agreement. If yes and then yes, I cannot agree on the basis of the fourth commandment and liberty of conscience.


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## mvdm

MW said:


> I would suggest that the objection could only find validity in a superstitious view of the holiness of the Lord's day.



Amen, Rev. Winzer.


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## TheOldCourse

MW said:


> PaulMc said:
> 
> 
> 
> In addition to my post above, is there any validity to an objection that there is no command to meet together except on Sabbath days (unless through providential calling of fast/prayer days etc) and therefore weekday meetings aren't allowable, and that in so doing we are being wiser than God who has given us the Sabbath day for these things?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's put it to the test. When do they hold their Session, Presbytery, Synodical, and General Assembly meetings? Do they pray at them, read the Bible, or do any other religious exercise? If so, on what grounds? When they do pastoral visitations to the home do they open the Bible and pray? Indeed, let's take a quick walk through the theological seminary (which is usually conducted along the lines of a parachurch organisation), and let's see if we can find an open Bible or times for prayer and worship. Why is it deemed appropriate to make use of other days of the week for these things while the congregation (the ordinary body which is instituted to engage in public worship) is confined to one day of the week? I would suggest that the objection could only find validity in a superstitious view of the holiness of the Lord's day.
Click to expand...


I'm sure no one here (I cannot speak for Dr. Hart, but I presume even he) is arguing that it isn't allowable by virtue of it not being commanded. I attend a midweek meeting myself albeit somewhat irregularly. Those espousing caution are, I believe, just emphasizing what Knox suggested (in Chris' post above) that there ought to be no compulsion or command. It's common in the evangelical world and accordingly in some portion of the Reformed church so inclined to so emphasize and encourage midweek meetings as to make them implicitly compulsory. This is where real spiritual growth happens. This is where the nitty gritty of "church" really happens. Members are implicitly divided into those who take their faith seriously and those who don't by their attendance on extracurriculars. Many ostensibly Reformed churches will not discipline a member for violations of the 4th commandment, but if they forsake the prayer meetings/bible studies it can become a serious matter. How many seem to follow Spurgeon in judging the health of their church by prayer meeting attendance? Is that a biblical barometer? 

There seems in some cases here to be a growing discomfort with the privileging of public worship in the ministry of the church and that is where there should be some push back. It parallels the apparently also growing discomfort with the historic applications of the RPW in its special appertaining to "Capital 'W' Worship" vs. "All-of-life" worship as well as the "Especially the preaching" (WLC 155) approach of the preached word being privileged as a means of grace over against other ways of encountering the Scriptures. I would hope none of those that maintain this would say that one shouldn't read the Bible on their own either, but there is a priority in place of the ordinary ministration of the means of grace in public worship on the Lord's Day.


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## MW

TheOldCourse said:


> there ought to be no compulsion or command.



There is no compulsion or command. I am yet to see a person come under discipline for not attending.

At the same time there is exhortation for the good of the individual and the body where it does not conflict with one's duty to care for his household and his estate. If some people feel bad because they know they could have attended but chose to decline, that bad feeling is not to be traced back to the session's decision to hold the meeting, nor should the session cease the meeting to alleviate the bad feelings of certain members.

As for "expectation," that is a a simple matter of logistics. It is very difficult to hold meetings when there is no expectation that people will be there. Common prudence should tell us that a meeting needs support in order to survive.


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## Jeri Tanner

MW said:


> TheOldCourse said:
> 
> 
> 
> there ought to be no compulsion or command.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no compulsion or command. I am yet to see a person come under discipline for not attending.
> 
> At the same time there is exhortation for the good of the individual and the body where it does not conflict with one's duty to care for his household and his estate. If some people feel bad because they know they could have attended but chose to decline, that bad feeling is not to be traced back to the session's decision to hold the meeting, nor should the session cease the meeting to alleviate the bad feelings of certain members.
> 
> As for "expectation," that is a a simple matter of logistics. It is very difficult to hold meetings when there is no expectation that people will be there. Common prudence should tell us that a meeting needs support in order to survive.
Click to expand...


Not everyone is in a Reformed church, and the mid-week meeting experience for many is often, evidently, very different from yours. I would love to have a mid-week prayer meeting to attend, when possible, where prayer according to God's revealed will is made as well as prayers offered for people's needs and a good teaching is given, and that's it. That would be heavenly. But I've never seen a mid-week meeting like that. It would be helpful if the Reformed churches could publish some good materials for a popular audience about how to conduct a mid-week meeting without burdening people with programs that require lots of adult volunteers, how to teach their church to not judge whether or not people are "active" in the church by their attendance, what kinds of things should be prayed for in these meetings, etc. (If you know of any such resources please point me to them!) There is no hope for a model for or instruction in these things if not from the Reformed churches.


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## johnny

My wife and I avoid midweek meetings as we are exhausted from working,
Life is really hard and stressful, there is not much spare time.

We are extremely blessed by God to have been granted the weekends off.
Even so, Saturday is very busy (so many household chores to catch up on)
We have to leave so many things unattended, (we schedule our duties weeks ahead)
The aim is to keep the Sabbath free of all regular obligations and this takes planning and thought.

Please pray for us that God may help us to honour his Sabbath with more fidelity...


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## MW

Jeri Tanner said:


> (If you know of any such resources please point me to them!) There is no hope for a model for or instruction in these things if not from the Reformed churches.



Sorry I can't help with resources, and I am sorry for the situation you are in. We pray for a day of reformation. A simple outline for a meeting would be psalm, prayer, reading, psalm, prayer, study, psalm, and prayer to conclude. Where spiritual men are in attendance it is good to call upon them to pray.


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## Herald

Jack K said:


> I've never yet seen a weekday prayer meeting—a true, honest, pleading-with-God prayer meeting—that ended up detracting from worship and other godly activities on Sunday. True prayer leads to a spiritual vitality that inevitably benefits the whole life of the church, especially its gathered worship. If voluntary, midweek prayer meetings are causing people to skip church and neglect godliness, I suspect the problem is superficial prayer rather than the time of the meeting.



Jack, I concur. True prayer should create a thirst for God that can only be satisfied by corporate worship.


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## Herald

MW said:


> PaulMc said:
> 
> 
> 
> In addition to my post above, is there any validity to an objection that there is no command to meet together except on Sabbath days (unless through providential calling of fast/prayer days etc) and therefore weekday meetings aren't allowable, and that in so doing we are being wiser than God who has given us the Sabbath day for these things?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's put it to the test. When do they hold their Session, Presbytery, Synodical, and General Assembly meetings? Do they pray at them, read the Bible, or do any other religious exercise? If so, on what grounds? When they do pastoral visitations to the home do they open the Bible and pray? Indeed, let's take a quick walk through the theological seminary (which is usually conducted along the lines of a parachurch organisation), and let's see if we can find an open Bible or times for prayer and worship. Why is it deemed appropriate to make use of other days of the week for these things while the congregation (the ordinary body which is instituted to engage in public worship) is confined to one day of the week? I would suggest that the objection could only find validity in a superstitious view of the holiness of the Lord's day.
Click to expand...


Bingo!


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## Ryan J. Ross

If expectation is logistics, then discipline for non-attendance is semantics.


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## MW

Ryan J. Ross said:


> If expectation is logistics, then discipline for non-attendance is semantics.



I thought it was clarified that there is no discipline for non-attendance. You are doing semantics on a non-entity. 

How about I try another angle. Is it right for the overseers to have no care if one of the flock is not profiting from the service? Should a body not care whether one of its members is joined with it? Is this a desirable condition for the church?

I am curious -- when the individual has fulfilled his "obligation" and attended the Sabbath service in the morning, what is to be thought about the Sabbath evening service?


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