# I'm complementarian..but women are missionaries



## Pergamum (Jan 12, 2011)

I’m a Complementarian, But… Women Are Missionaries – Pure Church by Thabiti Anyabwile

Thoughts? What roles can women play in missions/


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## kvanlaan (Jan 12, 2011)

I think so far as their concerns in taking a call to go overseas are concerned, they should just listen to the Lord's leading. I know of one young lady who went to Ethiopia for a mission trip (long term, not one week) and ended up marrying an Ethiopian man (no need to come home and get married). They now live in the US and have at least a couple of boys (not sure, haven't kept up).


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## Tim (Jan 13, 2011)

I disagree with Anyabwile's interpretation of the great commission as applying to everyone. This affects all of his later arguments. The great commission applies to those who are called as ministers of the Word - only men are (and not every man is) qualified and given the task of teaching and baptizing. 

Isn't missions still "ministry of the Word"? If it isn't, then what exactly is to be accomplished? How than can a woman be properly sent to do this work? How can this be permissible _overseas_, yet not permissible _domestically_? If a woman pursues work overseas that is not "ministry of the Word", then I would see her as a Christian woman who is filling her calling in a particular place in the world, no less worthy of honor as a missionary, but a distinct role nonetheless.


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## Pergamum (Jan 13, 2011)

Tim: 

I believe you are wrong.


In the New Testament we see the structure of the church, but we also see the itinerant bands that spread the Gospel through the Gentile world, such as the Pauline missionary band. 

These early missionaries included men like Paul, but also included women who are included as "sunergois" or fellow-workers as well; and women also "co-laboured" with Paul, designating Gospel labor. 

(Romans 16:6,12...Prisca, Eudia, Syntyche, Mary who "has worked hard for you" and Tryphaena and Tryphosa who are "workers in the Lord" and the beloved Persis.....working hard for the Lord in these contexts means evangelistic labor.)

These women were counted as fellow-labourers or sunergois.


Only one ordained man need to be the head of a church-planting team; there being a number of tasks on any team that women or unordained men can fill.


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## smhbbag (Jan 13, 2011)

Is this question any different than what role women may play when they are not missionaries?

Does missionary status extend what is permissible?

The article posted is one of a series on complementarianism by Thabiti Anyabwile. In the comments section of the previous article (I’m a Complementarian, But… Women Must Be Taught and They Must Teach – Pure Church by Thabiti Anyabwile) Anyabwile addressed a practical concern of what was acceptable for women:



> "Guest preaching at other churches: Maybe. I had the interesting situation of a dear sister in our church being asked to preach at a special service at another church. She came humbly and submissively to ask if it would be okay if she taught or if I’d rather her not. Before she came to me she spoke with her husband as well. The church leadership there had already invited her. Her husband gave her leave to do so. And I wish I could have assigned her 1 Tim. 2 as her text!"



His series of articles should be titled "I would be a complementarian, but...."

If he's a complementarian, then I'd like to stop calling myself one.

His articles are thought provoking, but this gifted minister, who has blessed many with sound Biblical teaching, is pushing some very dangerous propositions.


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## Wannabee (Jan 13, 2011)

I agree Pergy. We are all called to share the hope that is within us that others might come to Christ. All are ambassadors. The commission is to make disciples regardless of where you're going. Too many people justify their lack of evangelism based on the idea that "the pastor is supposed to do it," and/or "that's what he's paid to do," as though their contribution to the gospel is merely monetary. I'm not saying that has been advocated here, but I am saying that I have seen this mentality. On the other hand, I once heard a preacher say something along the lines of, "I'm a pastor. You're sheep. Pastors don't make sheep. Sheep make sheep. So go out there and make sheep." 

Thabiti has a lot of good things to say, but is wrong about women being able to be guest preachers. I would allow a female missionary to share about her ministry during the service though (and have). But I would't put her in a teaching situation. Interestingly, the one we did have share actually did teach a little. We talked about it afterward and she agreed she had crossed the line.

As for women missionaries; of course, under the oversight of biblical leadership.


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## Marrow Man (Jan 13, 2011)

In our denomination, women serve as missionaries, but only in certain roles. For example, there is a hospital in Pakistan, and one of the doctors there is a woman (and she is commissioned as a missionary in that capacity). In other places (Wales and Germany), unmarried women serve primarily in programs aimed at teaching youth and women.


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## toddpedlar (Jan 13, 2011)

Pergamum said:


> Tim:
> 
> I believe you are wrong.
> 
> ...



What exegetical considerations lead you to this conclusion?




> (Romans 16:6,12...Prisca, Eudia, Syntyche, Mary who "has worked hard for you" and Tryphaena and Tryphosa who are "workers in the Lord" and the beloved Persis.....working hard for the Lord in these contexts means evangelistic labor.)



How do you know this? Again, what leads you to this conclusion? 



> These women were counted as fellow-labourers or sunergois.



Indeed. So please explain where from Scripture you discern that they were doing any particular task?



> Only one ordained man need to be the head of a church-planting team; there being a number of tasks on any team that women or unordained men can fill.



So let's be plain. Would you argue that a woman could serve in your role and preach the word on a given Sunday in your place? Not as "leader of the team" but as one in the pulpit expositing the Word?


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## Pergamum (Jan 13, 2011)

Todd: 

I would not argue that a woman could fill the role of an elder on the field, nor have I ever seen this done. 

There is a place for a woman to be on an evangelistic team and to truly contribute and to be a fellow-worker and to "labor" in the sense that Paul means it, i.e. evangelism, without any usurpation of ecclesiastical authority. 

If one's primary conception of the church and its ministry is pulpit centered on a Sunday morning this might be harder to imagine, but when there are weeklong continous engagements and evangelism activities in a number of contexts, then women can fit seamlessly in without any "usurpation" happening or her taking on the role of an elder.


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## OPC'n (Jan 13, 2011)

lol it's kinda funny you guys are having the same debates you were having when i was here like a year ago  We could just open the archive and re-read and go "hmmmmmmm".


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## Pergamum (Jan 13, 2011)

> I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord.
> 
> 3And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.



Philippians 4 calls two women Paul's "co-workers" who "struggled together with him in promoting the Gospel". We are not told how they have promoted the Gospel but Paul's actions were missionary and evangelistic. We are not to suppose that they usurped any authority or took on ecclesiastical authority, but Paul does, indeed, count them as co-labourers and valued members of his team....evangelizing the lost.


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## Scott1 (Jan 13, 2011)

This is a huge topic that you have asked about, without specific qualification so it's hard to answer specifically.

One of the premises, concerns in the topic is what are God ordained distinctions and roles of Adam, created male and female. What is the creation order and what flows from that? And what do we mean by missions?

Some general observations:

1) Scripture teaches, explicitly and implicitly, and through the creation order that it is not "normal" for women to rule over men in family or ecclesiastical authority.

2) "Missions" ought include BOTH preaching the Gospel and discipleship, according to the full counsel of God's Word. That would always have as goal, at least, church planting (developing a covenant community with officers, men called out and qualified by I Timothy 3 and Titus 1).

3) In my understanding of Scripture, there are women to women and women to children ministries where women do have biblical authority.

4) There are many servant, support and assisting roles that women can and must be involved in.

5) "Short term missions" often end up benefiting young men and women, sometimes even adults in terms of their own Christian growth, as much or more than the mission "field." (cf Romans 8:28)


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## TimV (Jan 13, 2011)

Pergamum said:


> We are not told how they have promoted the Gospel but Paul's actions were missionary and evangelistic.



Those first four words are the key. Paul obviously felt a woman could labor in the Gospel and still keep silent in church and not teach men in anything religious.

BTW Rich pointed out recently that by using the concept of sphere sovereignty there's nothing wrong with me learning from a woman in a college literature class. And there's no contradiction between saying she can't teach Christianity to men but she can teach anatomy.

PS, True, Sarah.


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## Contra_Mundum (Jan 13, 2011)

In the sense that the _church_ sends, equips, pays, assigns duties to its missionaries, those who are sent are "missionaries." This is a little different, I think, from a church calling a minister, or electing elders, and expecting to call the wife a "co-pastor". (It happens, but that's just screwy).

But the church _sending_ an evangelist to wherever, in the OPC both together are usually termed "missionaries." (Their children are simply dependents). But our church has also sent and compensated women physicians, nurses, etc. We also have "missionary associates," sometimes women, who may teach the children of missionaries (M-Ks), perform secretary-tasks, etc.

The word "missionary" isn't a synonym for "minister" or "evangelist." It is meant to include more than the narrow definition of "office." You can't really have missionaries at all without called and ordained evangelists, but you can have more missionaries than simply those men.


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## puritanpilgrim (Jan 13, 2011)

Why do we think of missions in a different sphere than the local church? The discussions should change based upon which country a church is working in. Women play the same roll in missions that they play in the local church. Therefore, the question is, "What roll do women play in the local church." They play many rolls, just not those of leadership or teaching men. Titus 2 is a great way that women serve in missions in any church.


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## Pergamum (Jan 13, 2011)

Aaron: Can you explain further?


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## puritanpilgrim (Jan 13, 2011)

> Aaron: Can you explain further?



Sure. The question is not can women serve in missions as though missions is somthing which is outside of the local church. The question is what role do women play in the local church? And the answer to that question is the same answer as, "What role do women play in missions?" Pergamum, where do you want to to explain further?


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## Pergamum (Jan 13, 2011)

Aaron, I have never seen bible translators or literacy workers in local churches in the US. Or all the personnel needed to help support a mission staff in a foreign and sometimes remote setting.


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## smhbbag (Jan 13, 2011)

> Aaron, I have never seen bible translators or literacy workers in local churches in the US. Or all the personnel needed to help support a mission staff in a foreign and sometimes remote setting.



Sure, you have. Here, they're just called school teachers, secretaries, ministry coordinators, etc.

The equivalent of a Bible translator would be a.....Bible translator. We have plenty of those here, as the NIV, NASB, ESV, NKJV, NLT, etc. can testify. 

Does missionary status change what activities are appropriate?


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## Edward (Jan 13, 2011)

Pergamum said:


> I have never seen bible translators or literacy workers in local churches in the US.



Is an ESL program in the US different in nature than a language program overseas?; As for Bible translators, Wycliffe has a number of folks working in the US - I see a few of them in Sunday School most weeks. And it could well be that you work in a safer neighborhood than they do.


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## Pergamum (Jan 13, 2011)

Crossing cultures necessitates a number of specialists tasks not seen in US churches. Also, mission exists even where local churches do not exist (yet). Missions produces churches and churches produce missions, therefore, we should expect differences in the two contexts.


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## Scottish Lass (Jan 14, 2011)

Pergamum said:


> Crossing cultures necessitates a number of specialists tasks not seen in US churches. Also, mission exists even where local churches do not exist (yet). Missions produces churches and churches produce missions, therefore, we should expect differences in the two contexts.


 
But that's not your previous claim, which I think has been amply answered. It's also not that different than church planting, where the wife/woman's role should also be limited.


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## Pergamum (Jan 14, 2011)

Scottish Lass said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > Crossing cultures necessitates a number of specialists tasks not seen in US churches. Also, mission exists even where local churches do not exist (yet). Missions produces churches and churches produce missions, therefore, we should expect differences in the two contexts.
> ...



So, what was my previous claim?


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## Scottish Lass (Jan 14, 2011)

Pergamum said:


> So, what was my previous claim?





Pergamum said:


> Aaron, I have never seen bible translators or literacy workers in local churches in the US. Or all the personnel needed to help support a mission staff in a foreign and sometimes remote setting.



.


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## Pergamum (Jan 14, 2011)

Anna: 

Nothing I have said is self-contradictory. Explain further your point.


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## Tim (Jan 14, 2011)

Wannabee said:


> I would allow a female missionary to share about her ministry during the service though (and have).



How does this not go against this verse? (I say this humbly and respectfully):


> 1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.




---------- Post added at 08:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:26 AM ----------

And I really would like to know. This is a serious question.


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## Pergamum (Jan 14, 2011)

Tim: 

That was Wannabee's quote, not mine. 


Also, most evangelism occurs out of the church overseas (I have never yet seen any Western female missionaries that I work with preach or teach inside of a church while in this country) and, regardless, the women are not exercising ecclesiastical authority nor teaching authoritatively.

If a woman is sent overseas from a western church to aid gospel work overseas, I see nothing wrong or "usurping" about her coming back and giving a report of her labors to the church one Sunday. If the church feels that this is a violation, then let them let her give an update at a church picnic or a small-group or something.


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## Tim (Jan 14, 2011)

Pergamum said:


> If the church feels that this is a violation, then let them let her give an update at a church picnic or a small-group or something.



I agree. By the way, I am also uncomfortable with a man giving any sort of report during the worship service - because it is not part of regulated worship! 



Pergamum said:


> If a woman is sent overseas from a western church to aid gospel work overseas



But does the church have the authority to "send" someone overseas (or anywhere), if they are not an officer? Wouldn't this be like a baseball club who sends the groundskeeper to another city? Or, perhaps a better example would be for me to be sent by my church to a Arabic/Muslim country to work at a university there so I can bear Christian witness to those people? Is that within the church jurisdiction? 

But, then again, I remember how Rushdoony would argue that the church should operate things such as hospitals and orphanages. If it would be proper to do that domestically, then why not overseas? Would you agree with this sort of perspective, Pergy?


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## Pergamum (Jan 14, 2011)

Tim: 

I think if the leadership of a church appoints the person, then that person is commissioned legitimately to serve in the manner to which he or she has been commissioned. 

Remember, I am a baptist and the 1689 LBCF also widens the permissibility of who can preach the Word (not church officers only, but those appointed by the church). 



> XXVI. 11. Although it be incumbent on the Bishops or Pastors of the Churches to be instant in Preaching the Word, by way of Office; yet the work of Preaching the Word, is not so peculiarly confined to them; but that others also (a) gifted, and fitted by the Holy Spirit for it, and approved, and called by the Church, may and ought to perform it .



Likewise, not church officers only, but all those appointed by the church can go out and serve - if they are duly recognized and sent by the church (rather than merely going out on their own initiative). Just as non-officers may be appointed to preach by the church, non-officers may be sent or appointed to tasks or missions by the church.



I do not believe that missions is limited to church officers. Though some aspects of missions (administering the ordinances) may be.


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## Tim (Jan 14, 2011)

But, what is the scope of tasks to which the leadership may properly appoint a member? The way you have put it above leaves it completely open. I don't know if you mean it this way, but that is how it sounds. 

I see a big difference between official (officer) tasks and everything else. The Bible prescribes the qualifications and tasks of the church officers. But I see no similar appointment and commission _per se_ for one who is not serving as an officer. There is responsibility to be sure - a responsibility that every Christian bears as one who must be salt and light, I am not sure I understand the basis upon which you argue that the church has as wide a jurisdiction of appointment as you suggest. I am really trying to understand your basis for what you suggest.


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## Pergamum (Jan 14, 2011)

Tim:

I believe that the church can rightly appoint tasks that further the church's mission, e.g., the expansion of the Gospel. Some were sent out in Acts on what seems to be short-term trips and some (II John and II John) went out for the sake of the Name and we do not know what office these sent-out-ones held, if any.

I think there is considerable liberty in this. You mentioned above that even Rushdoony, a much more revered thinker than I am, suggested that the church should help in areas such as hospitals and orphanages. I also think that a church may bless and send out a young women as a nurse to minister through healthcare to poor Africans, etc, or send out non-ordained translators (even women translators) to go and help in the translation of the Scriptures abroad. 

Churches decide many more mundane things every week, such as the purchase of buildings, and automobiles and they sometimes appoint people to go out and do those tasks.

---------- Post added at 02:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:01 PM ----------

p.s. Tim, what would you suggest as a more biblical way to do missions and utilize even non-officers (if we should) in vital tasks overseas?


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## Tim (Jan 14, 2011)

I think that is a useful clarification of your position. 

I must go off-line now, but I really think there is a valuable discussion here - what exactly is the scope (practically speaking!) of the Church's mission on earth? Depending on how wide this is defined will affect who may be considered a missionary (women or men). It will also help us prioritize.

I hope the North American crowd continues with the discussion!


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## Pergamum (Jan 14, 2011)

Tim, 

I think you just asked, "What is the mission of the Church?"


Here is one response:


What is the Mission of the Church? – Kevin DeYoung

And here are others:




> And let our people also learn to maintain good works, to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful" (Titus 3:14).
> 
> "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven" (Matt. 5:16).





If we say that the mission of the Church is the Great Commission, then what about the Great Commandment, too. If we say that it is to glorify God, then don't we glorify God by helping the needy?


Whatever the best definition of the "mission of the Church" is, I believe that such a definition could still allow the participation of women within this mission as missionary laborers and full team-mates, and with the full permission of the established churches that pray and support such efforts.


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## Scottish Lass (Jan 14, 2011)

Pergamum said:


> Anna:
> 
> Nothing I have said is self-contradictory. Explain further your point.


 
You said you had never seen bible translators or literacy workers in U.S. churches. Examples were provided. You then went to the broader "specialists," without specifics. You then end with a semi-circular church -> missions -> church but expect to have/see differences in the two areas. If one leads to another in such a connected way as you describe, why would we expect differences?


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## Pergamum (Jan 14, 2011)

Scottish Lass said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > Anna:
> ...


 
I have never seen bible translators or literacy workers in a US church. Many US churches have been long-established and are not attempting to cross ethno-linguistic barriars in their local contexts.

Those churches that DO have these folks working are almost always targetting a different culture and would then be engaged in a cross-cultural work akin to foreign missions. Teaching English in the US is different than learning the heart-language of a people overseas in order to communicate the Gospel or translate the bible in their language. The SILers I know in the US are helping native americans or are in teaching roles but are almost always not directly connected to local churches.

Western established churches have to take care of all of their members. Missionaries overseas have a more narrow focus on planting and strengthening churches where they do not exist. Thus, their focus is different and thus their methodologies may differ as well. So, if we do NOT see diffferences in activity between established US pastors and mission teams on an unreached field, this should be a cause for alarm. US pastorates and cross cultural mission efforts are often two very different beasts. 

What are your beliefs on the subject?


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## Scottish Lass (Jan 14, 2011)

Edward answered your claim about literacy workers and Bible translators---it's not our fault you attach more meaning to the words. People teaching ESL are literacy workers; you meant people dealing with a second language in a different culture, but it's not what you said. Same for translators. I've helped teach English to Yemeni women, but unless I do it in another country, it sounds like it doesn't count in your book--maybe I'm mistaken, but that's the feeling I get. 
I don't know what you mean by "heart-language"--is that different than the local language?

But all of this is beyond the scope of the OP. My beliefs on the OP is that women should play limited, biblical roles whether in an established church, a Western church plant, or among an unreached group. Women can/should teach women and children and model Christian living (and a Christian marriage, if applicable).


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## Pergamum (Jan 14, 2011)

Scottish Lass said:


> Edward answered your claim about literacy workers and Bible translators---it's not our fault you attach more meaning to the words. People teaching ESL are literacy workers; you meant people dealing with a second language in a different culture, but it's not what you said. Same for translators. I've helped teach English to Yemeni women, but unless I do it in another country, it sounds like it doesn't count in your book--maybe I'm mistaken, but that's the feeling I get.
> I don't know what you mean by "heart-language"--is that different than the local language?
> 
> But all of this is beyond the scope of the OP. My beliefs on the OP is that women should play limited, biblical roles whether in an established church, a Western church plant, or among an unreached group. Women can/should teach women and children and model Christian living (and a Christian marriage, if applicable).


 
Anna, 

Teaching English to Yemeni speakers is not the same as us learning the Heart-language of another country and ministering there. Teaching Yemeni speakers English (who have Yemeni as their heart language) may open up Yemeni speakers to English-language Gospel resources, but far more effective is the strategy of getting Gospel resources into Yemenese.

I am glad for any work that is going on, but I do not believe these two strategies are on the same level of effectiveness. This is not a critique, and I am, again, glad for your efforts, but the effectiveness of the strategies is far different. That is why I am treating the two things as different animals possessing a large degree of difference whereas you same to be equating the two strategies as more similar and this might be at the heart of our misunderstanding. 

A heart-language is the language that most moves you, i.e., the language of the heart. I can read the Bible in 2 other languages but the Bible most moves me and feeds me spiritually in my own heart language of English. Though many other peoples around the world can speak english, when they get mad, sad, fight, argue, make love, talk most intimately, cuss, or revert back to when they are tired, is called their Heart-Language, their primary language. When evangelizing groups of people around the world, we ought to aim towards getting the Gospel into the heart-language of that people so that the Gospel can be owned as their own and not as a foreign import. The Yemenese might understand the Gospel in English, but they would understand it far greater in their own local tongue.

Believe me, ESL and you teaching English to these Yemenese women DOES count high in my book and you are doing a very valuable ministry and I am glad for you. 

If you would like, we can start another post on this topic of heart-language versus second-language missions ministries.


I agree with your assessment about the use of women on the mission field; they can and should be utilized and are most effective in ministering to women and children and as models of the Christian home.


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## Scottish Lass (Jan 15, 2011)

So we mostly agree, I believe. I'm not sure I can wholeheartedly agree with your last sentence; your qualifier leaves room for other ways women could serve. Do you think there are other "effective" ways women should serve on the mission field (which is to the heart of the OP, I think)?


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## Pergamum (Jan 15, 2011)

Scottish Lass said:


> So we mostly agree, I believe. I'm not sure I can wholeheartedly agree with your last sentence; your qualifier leaves room for other ways women could serve. Do you think there are other "effective" ways women should serve on the mission field (which is to the heart of the OP, I think)?


 
Yes, it sounds like we agree.

Yes, I see many other effective ways that women can serve and still not usurp any male ecclesiastical authority. 

These ways include ministering to women and children, but may also include bible translation, literacy, social justice and mercy and medical ministries, teaching english, education, admin and supporting roles, counseling and member care, document services and visa roles, hospitality, media and radio ministry roles...add to this list probably 100 other roles as well. 

The fields are white for harvest and I wish I had 100 more female inquirers into the missions-going process because I have seen many godly women become very effective Harvesters here and elsewhere.


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## Scottish Lass (Jan 15, 2011)

I think most people would find those roles acceptable, with care given to what you mean by "counseling and member care" and "radio ministry".


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## Brian Withnell (Jan 15, 2011)

Pergamum said:


> I’m a Complementarian, But… Women Are Missionaries – Pure Church by Thabiti Anyabwile
> 
> Thoughts? What roles can women play in missions/


 
"But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet."

So if you ask me, a woman can do many things, as long as it is not exercise of authority or teaching. The passage in Timothy gives pre-fall rational, and post-fall rational. If the tasks (welding pipes, sewing clothing, fixing engines, drilling wells) do not involve authority or teaching, they are within the bounds of Biblical limits (and the restrictions of the WCF) but outside this, I'm sure a woman should not act.

---------- Post added at 10:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:13 PM ----------




Pergamum said:


> Crossing cultures necessitates a number of specialists tasks not seen in US churches. Also, mission exists even where local churches do not exist (yet). Missions produces churches and churches produce missions, therefore, we should expect differences in the two contexts.


 
You ought to step into Sterling, Virginia sometime or parts of Los Angeles ... anywhere the majority of the people are not English speaking European background. Crossing cultures can be just driving down the street 3 miles in many areas.


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## Pergamum (Jan 15, 2011)

Brian Withnell said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > I’m a Complementarian, But… Women Are Missionaries – Pure Church by Thabiti Anyabwile
> ...


 
Crossing different American race and class demographics is a needed thing. 

Crossing an ethno-linguistic divide overseas is even more needed.


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