# Modernism versus Postmodernism?



## baron (Mar 13, 2012)

I started reading Lectures on Calvinism by Abraham Kuyper. Speaking on Modernism, I came upon this. 

In this struggle Apologetics have advanced us not one single step. Apologists have invariably begun by abandoning the assailed breastwork, in order to entrench themselves cowardly in a ravelin behind it.

If he felt this way about Apologetics in his age, then is Apologetics needed in a Postmodern age?

When did the Postmodern age start?

Disclaimer, I'm totaly igorant regarding Philosophy and Apologetics. Every time I try to read in Philosophy, I end up feeling like Lou Costello in Who's On First.


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## jwright82 (Mar 13, 2012)

O.K. modernism was the beleif that reason alone could solve all human problems. Pick a problem, any problem and we could rationally work out the solution for it. During WW2 this dream was shot down. The Nazi's very rationally worked out their agenda along modernist lines. So thinkers begin to believe that reason cannot answer our problems. In fact they blamed reason for what happened. That is post-modernism. 

Since postmodern thought went into an irrational beleif system, we need apologetics to say that western philosophy apart from the christian worldview will always end in this irrational view.


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## J. Dean (Mar 14, 2012)

I like G.K. Chesterton's quote along these lines: A madman is not one who has lost his reason; a madman is one who has lost everything except for his reason.

It's ironic that the emergent "church" has criticized the church for being steeped in modernism, considering that some of the most vicious attacks on the church came from the modernist movement.

BTW, John, anyone trying to read Hegel will get that Lou Costello feeling as well.


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## athanatos (Mar 14, 2012)

J. Dean said:


> BTW, John, anyone trying to read Hegel will get that Lou Costello feeling as well.


Worst reading I have ever set before my eyes.


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## baron (Mar 14, 2012)

jwright82 said:


> Since postmodern thought went into an irrational beleif system, we need apologetics to say that western philosophy apart from the christian worldview will always end in this irrational view.



Would postmodernism accept eastern philosophy? That is if eastern philosophy is irrational.

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jwright82 said:


> The Nazi's very rationally worked out their agenda along modernist lines



I see now why Kuyper refers to the French Revolution. Should not the modernest of the 1930-40 have seen what happened in France with their reasoning?

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J. Dean said:


> I like G.K. Chesterton's quote along these lines: A madman is not one who has lost his reason; a madman is one who has lost everything except for his reason.



That is a quote I must remember. In France during the revolution and Germany (Nazi) they lost everything but reason.

Should we be wary of reason?

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J. Dean said:


> BTW, John, anyone trying to read Hegel will get that Lou Costello feeling as well.



Thanks for the warning.

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athanatos said:


> Worst reading I have ever set before my eyes.



Why was it the worst reading?


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## J. Dean (Mar 14, 2012)

baron said:


> Why was it the worst reading?



Did you ever read the book _1984_ by Orwell? Here's a hint: "How many fingers am I holding up, Winston?"


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## jwright82 (Mar 14, 2012)

baron said:


> Would postmodernism accept eastern philosophy? That is if eastern philosophy is irrational.



Yes and no. For "ism" that is out there there are two levels to it, the philosophy of the culture and the philosophers themselves. The general cultural enviroment of postmodernism did and has (see that article I shared on the death of postmodernism) accepted eastern or at least their take on eastern thought. The actual philosophers who developed these theories didn't rely on eastern thought at all considering that they were just critiquing western thought with western thinking. The philosophers now working in a post-postmodernism do rely on those ways of thought more and even islamic thinkers. Its all about dialouge now. We are so desperate to solve our problems that we will look into every tradition worldwide except orthodox christian thinking. 




baron said:


> I see now why Kuyper refers to the French Revolution. Should not the modernest of the 1930-40 have seen what happened in France with their reasoning?



Pinning actual dates and when the ideas changed is still to early to tell. I cited that example because it is the one most brought up by thinkers criticizing modernism. They cite Stalin as well.


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