# "Sin turns you in on yourself..."



## Southern Presbyterian (Jan 13, 2011)

> Sin turns you in on yourself, blinding you to God. Guilt also tends to turn you in on yourself. Self-laceration exalts your opinion of yourself as supremely important; shame exalts the opinion of other people. But living repentance and living faith turn outward to the one whose opinion matters most. What God chooses to “remember” about you will prove decisive. Your conscience, if well-tuned, is secondary and dependent on the stance he takes. If the Lord is merciful, then mercy has the f inal say. It is beyond our comprehension that God acts mercifully for his sake,because of what heis like. Wrap your heart around this, and the aftermath of sin will never be the same. *You will stand in joy and gratitude, not grovel in shame.* You’ll be able to get back to the business of life with fresh resolve, not just with good intentions and some flimsy New Year’sresolutions to do better next time. This is our hope. This is our deepest need. This is our Lord’sessential, foundational gift. The one with whom we have to do freely offers mercy and grace to help us by the lovingkindness of the Lord Jesus Christ (see Heb. 4:13-16, NASB).
> 
> --David Powlison


 ~emphasis mine~

Sound Biblical Counseling? Self-actualizing gobbledygook? What say ye all?


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## Pergamum (Jan 14, 2011)

I like David Powlison.


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## Southern Presbyterian (Jan 14, 2011)

So do I. Yet something about the part that I bolded just doesn't quite sit right with me for some reason and I can't put my finger on just why. I was hoping for some input from others. Maybe I'm not quite getting his point? I don't know, but I figured that if there was something hinkie here that there'd be someone here that could point out what it is.


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## Herald (Jan 14, 2011)

James, trying to read Powlison in the most charitable light; perhaps he is trying to make the point that we do not need to cower in shame if we better understand God's mercy and, therefore, His grace. It's not that we are to assume a pseudo pride. Rather we should express both joy and profound humility. Maybe Romans 8:1 is appropriate here? 



> Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


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## Kim G (Jan 14, 2011)

Growing up in fundamentalism, I understand this quote completely. My former pastor used to say that guilt was a good thing because if we felt bad enough about sinning, we'd stop doing it. That's why there were manipulative invitations and "hard preaching" that always pointed us to what we were doing wrong, instead of pointing us to Christ.

I'll never forget the first time my current Reformed pastor said that groveling in guilt is a form of pride--we are focusing on ourselves and our sin to the exclusion of focusing on the glorious person and work of Christ on our behalf. (Not that mourning over sin is wrong, but that mourning does not save or sanctify--Jesus does that!)


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## seajayrice (Jan 14, 2011)

Sounds weird to me, “God’s opinion”, “what God chooses to member about me”? Since when is God charged with having opinions? One thing is decisive in God’s sight and it is not me. I find expressions like that off-putting.


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## CharlieJ (Jan 14, 2011)

*I Get It*

I too grew up in fundamentalism, and the quote resonates deeply with me. The idea that sin turns one inward, or rather prevents one from connecting outward, is a time-honored Augustinian concept. What God chooses to "remember" about you is referring to justification - does he see your sin or Christ's righteousness?


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## LawrenceU (Jan 14, 2011)

Having grown up in a legalistic setting, I understand it completely. I think he nails it. If you have not lived in shame, in a shame based system, it is really impossible to understand how self focussing it can be. It can absolutely cause self to become your god.


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## Herald (Jan 14, 2011)

I attended a fundamentalist bible college where you guilt was directly and indirectly heaped upon you if you didn't win souls or live a separatist lifestyle. In their quest for holiness they reaped Pharisees.


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## Skyler (Jan 14, 2011)

seajayrice said:


> Sounds weird to me, “God’s opinion”, “what God chooses to member about me”? Since when is God charged with having opinions? One thing is decisive in God’s sight and it is not me. I find expressions like that off-putting.



I think it's completely Biblical that God chooses to remember certain things about us and forgets our sin. His opinion ("view", if you will) of us--seeing us as justified in Christ--_is_ what matters.


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## KMK (Jan 14, 2011)

LawrenceU said:


> If you have not lived in shame, in a shame based system, it is really impossible to understand how self focussing it can be.



Interesting. Can you elaborate?


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## Southern Presbyterian (Jan 14, 2011)

Good stuff, y'all. I'll comment further when I get to an actual computer later this evening.


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## LawrenceU (Jan 14, 2011)

KMK said:


> LawrenceU said:
> 
> 
> > If you have not lived in shame, in a shame based system, it is really impossible to understand how self focussing it can be.
> ...


 

When you are shamed the focus of the verbalisation directed toward you is not about your actions or the standard of God's word. No, at its core it is about you as an individual. YOU are worthless. YOU are incapable. YOU are a failure. YOU displease 'X'. When you are continually shamed you begin to worry more about yourself, your actions, your words, your dress, your demeanor, everything rather than thinking of others. You may either become 'emboldened' or 'reclusive' depending upon your personality. I really don't have time at present to delve deeply, but I shall do so later. This is an important matter; not just for the church, but for parenting as well.


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## Philip (Jan 14, 2011)

The point being made here is, I think, an excellent one. It is no bad thing to remember our sin and repent of it, but we cannot stay there and simply say "well I'll try to be better," wallowing in self-righteousness, only to fall back into self-pity when we inevitably break God's law again. Instead, what we must do is throw ourselves on the mercy of Christ and remember that while yes, we are great sinners, Christ is a greater savior. We throw our sins at the foot of the cross and look to Him who died there and say, "though my sins were as scarlet, now they are white as snow." That we sinned no longer matters in the long run: what matters is that Christ has saved us from that sin and unto righteousness. Now, through His blood, we live Christ-centered lives, lives of humble reliance upon His grace for daily sustenance. We don't look back and inward, we look forward and outward, humbly asking God for grace for the living of these days.

This, at least, is how I take the quote and I think it a great encouragement to those who, like myself, are at times prone to self-pitying wallowing in guilt and shame, lamenting that we can't be "good enough" when really Christ was good for me and His righteousness is where my focus ought to be.


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## KMK (Jan 14, 2011)

LawrenceU said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> > LawrenceU said:
> ...


 
Thanks Lawrence!


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## Peairtach (Jan 14, 2011)

> You will stand in joy and gratitude, not grovel in shame.



There's a time for shame for sin - remember the story of the Publican and the Pharisee - but there's a time to remember that God in Christ is not just equal to our sin but greater than our sin and trust Him to lift us out of our guilt and shame so that we can serve Him and others. To wallow in guilt and shame after conversion or after repentance and seeking new obedience reveals the immaturity and smallness of our (often otherwise genuinely saving) faith.



> Sin turns you in on yourself,



It was Luther who said that sin had made Man _incurvatus in se_, turned in on himself.


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## dudley (Jan 15, 2011)

I like David Powlison and I read his essay *“God’s Grace and Your Sufferings,” *which was published in *“Suffering and the Sovereignty of God.”*
I think David Powlison gives very sound biblical counseling.

Also regarding the above post and the title of the thread ‘"Sin turns you in on yourself..."I received in a Reformed newsletter the following piece which I would like to share in this thread. It refers to the Noetic Effects of Sin. It is a concept in Christian theology that argues for the negative effect of sin on the minds of all people. This effect changes man’s thinking and ability to understand. It is not that the mind is incapacitated, but that sin has a deteriorating effect on our ability to think and believe. This effect is primarily seen with regard to our understanding and perception of spiritual things.


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## Pergamum (Jan 15, 2011)

Herald said:


> I attended a fundamentalist bible college where you guilt was directly and indirectly heaped upon you if you didn't win souls or live a separatist lifestyle. In their quest for holiness they reaped Pharisees.


 
Ditto! I attended an Indy Fundy school in Winston-Salem, NC for one year.... wow, what a long year.


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## Southern Presbyterian (Jan 15, 2011)

Pergamum said:


> Ditto! I attended an Indy Fundy school in Winston-Salem, NC for one year.... wow, what a long year.


 
Me too, Perg. Was it's initials PBC?


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## Southern Presbyterian (Jan 16, 2011)

I can definitely relate to the independent fundamentalist experience. Guilt is such an integral part of that system. 

The more I re-read the quote the more I think I understand. All your comments are appreciated and have shed needed light on this for me. When the focus is placed on Christ things are seen in a much different light. 

Thank you all for your input.


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