# PCA Growing?



## CharlieJ

Whenever I talk to PCA people, they make it sound like their denomination is just exploding with new growth. So, I took a look at the statistics posted on the PCA site. Presbyterian Church in America              Statistics

According to the site, the number of churches grew from 1,278 in 2003 to 1,372 in 2007. That averages 1.84% growth per year (total difference divided by 4 and converted to percentage).

Total membership rose from 320,400 to 345,582. That's a total difference of 25,182 people, or 1.96% growth per year.


So, I guess the PCA is doing better than declining liberal denominations, but I don't see what all the hype is about. It seems as if the biggest "growth" is from other Presbyterian groups joining the PCA (like RPCES). Am I missing something? Are the statistics not counting some things?


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## he beholds

jealous, much?

j/k


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## Knoxienne




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## CharlieJ

I'll add that part of my confusion comes from getting a visitor's packet from a PCA church in town. In that packet was some info about the PCA. It represented the PCA as this booming entity - the most exciting movement since the hippies. Now, I understand the desire to present your denomination in the best light, but if it isn't really growing that fast, maybe the literature should make the "pitch" on different grounds.


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## Kevin

Here in our presb. (eastern Canada) we have 5 established congregations and 6 church plants (in varying stages).

So yes we are growing.


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## Whitefield

I wish the PCA would plant one on the Indiana side of the Ohio River (Louisville area).


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## cbryant

Most of the growth you see in the PCA is transfer growth from people coming to the PCA from another denomination (I for one came from the SBC denomination and have known many others that have done the same thing, this to the displeasure of some of my die hard SBC friends). I have seen a few adult converts in PCA churches but transfer growth seems to be the norm. I am also curious to see if those growth statistics include those who transfer from one PCA church to another PCA church.


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## Tripel

My guess is that the growth boom people talk about is largely urban church plants, while maybe the suburban and rural PCA churches are not really growing. 

Good question. I'd like to see where the growth is occurring and where it is not.


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## Scott1

CharlieJ said:


> Whenever I talk to PCA people, they make it sound like their denomination is just exploding with new growth. So, I took a look at the statistics posted on the PCA site. Presbyterian Church in America************* Statistics
> 
> According to the site, the number of churches grew from 1,278 in 2003 to 1,372 in 2007. That averages 1.84% growth per year (total difference divided by 4 and converted to percentage).
> 
> Total membership rose from 320,400 to 345,582. That's a total difference of 25,182 people, or 1.96% growth per year.
> 
> So, I guess the PCA is doing better than declining liberal denominations, but I don't see what all the hype is about. It seems as if the biggest "growth" is from other Presbyterian groups joining the PCA (like RPCES). Am I missing something? Are the statistics not counting some things?



Yes, steady growth is better than steady decline, I don't think you are "missing something" in that.

The pattern is slow but steady growth over the five years of the statistic while the mainline denominations have more than slow, steady decline.

We would have to look at the statistics over a longer period of time and break them down to understand more. As I understand it, the PCA has not required member churches to report numbers, and that is a huge issue in terms of these numbers.

From observation only, the PCA is growing from:

1) A few particular churches going into it, a net increase over a few that leave
2) A slow but steady increase in new members
3) A high birth rate (covenant community really emphasizes children)


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## R Harris

I am always skeptical of any statistics published by any denomination.

I have known for a fact of some SBC churches which have kept people on the rolls for years who have either transferred or left the denomination entirely, yet were still counted on the roll of the original church.

It would not surprise me to see this practice occurring in other denominations.


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## Classical Presbyterian

I could care less about numbers, but I rejoice that the PCA is prospering in the proclamation of the gospel!


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## Romans922

Please see this past year's numbers:

Churches & Missions – 1,693 in 2008. *Net Gain of 27 (net gain was 45 in 2007)*
Total professions of Faith – 10,335. *Net Increase of 135 more than 2007.*
Total Membership –340,852. *Net Decrease of 4,730 (1.37%)*.
Total Family Units – 135,539, *Net Decrease of 4,748.*
Sunday School Attendance – 110,652. *Net Decrease of 1,259.*
Adult Baptisms – 2,488. Net Decrease of 170.
Infant Baptisms – 5,434. Net Decrease of 33.


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## Tripel

Classical Presbyterian said:


> I could care less about numbers, but I rejoice that the PCA is prospering in the proclamation of the gospel!



Very true. There are more important things than the stats. It's encouraging to see any reformed denomination grow in size, but I hope those same churches are growing in love, wisdom, and mercy.


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## tcalbrecht

Romans922 said:


> Please see this past year's numbers:



It's George Bush's fault.


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## Mushroom

Growth *can* be a good thing, dependent on *what* it is growing in to.


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## Knoxienne

Brad said:


> Growth *can* be a good thing, dependent on *what* it is growing in to.


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## CharlieJ

Classical Presbyterian said:


> I could care less about numbers, but I rejoice that the PCA is prospering in the proclamation of the gospel!



Is it? How do you know?

I'm not trying to be skeptical. I'm just trying to figure out, as a denomination, what the PCA is all about. Is it a group of people who publish theology books that are read only by people who already agree? Is it an organization that believes in church planting, but only in middle-class Caucasian white-collar areas? Or, is it actively pursuing unreached areas and thoroughly penetrating existing ones?

I do not know the answers to any of these questions. How would one go about finding answers?

BTW, I am attending a PCA church now and absolutely love it. I still know very little about the denomination.


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## SemperEruditio

CharlieJ said:


> Classical Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> 
> I could care less about numbers, but I rejoice that the PCA is prospering in the proclamation of the gospel!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is it? How do you know?
> 
> I'm not trying to be skeptical. I'm just trying to figure out, as a denomination, what the PCA is all about. Is it a group of people who publish theology books that are read only by people who already agree? Is it an organization that believes in church planting, but only in middle-class Caucasian white-collar areas? Or, is it actively pursuing unreached areas and thoroughly penetrating existing ones?
> 
> I do not know the answers to any of these questions. How would one go about finding answers?
> 
> BTW, I am attending a PCA church now and absolutely love it. I still know very little about the denomination.
Click to expand...


Go to Welcome to the Mission to North America Homepage and you'll get an idea. From there google for your Presbytery and see what their site has to offer. 

As far as answers to a couple of your questions. The PCA is very active in addressing church planting in under-class Black/Latino urban areas. The problem is there are few who seem to hear a call to these areas. The White brothers who do have a very tough time of it but still they are faithful. Look into Faith Christian Fellowship in Baltimore, MD. The pastor's wife wrote a book about their experiences. I have been in a local meeting with the African-American Ministries Coordinator, Wy Plummer. The problem is getting people to "go."

I've posted about this before. The PCA's problem in this area is not the PCA's problem but a sin problem. Black/Brown people want to hear the Gospel but usually they want to hear it from a Black/Brown pastor. Those of our White brothers who persevere take a beating along the way. It's a catch-22 for the PCA. I believe the PCA is doing what it can, with the people it has.

I also wouldn't knock the middle-class white-collar churches or church plants. Someone has to pay for the inner-city church plants. I have seen the financial faithfulness of our White brother/sisters. There are many urban churches that because of their demographics never have the finances to be self-sufficient. I know of a couple who is giving a church $1,000/month for the next 50 months! Amen! God Bless those middle-class Caucasian white-collar churches.

I believe the PCA is growing. I joined!


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## Knoxienne

CharlieJ said:


> In that packet was some info about the PCA. It represented the PCA as this booming entity - the most exciting movement since the hippies.


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## Whitefield

Knoxienne said:


> CharlieJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> In that packet was some info about the PCA. It represented the PCA as this booming entity - the most exciting movement since the hippies.
Click to expand...


 I hope they bathe more regularly than the hippies.


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## LawrenceU

Whitefield said:


> Knoxienne said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CharlieJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> In that packet was some info about the PCA. It represented the PCA as this booming entity - the most exciting movement since the hippies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I hope they bathe more regularly than the hippies.
Click to expand...


I thought it but didn't type it.


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## E Nomine

Please plant a PCA in San Francisco!


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## Romans922

There is a good OPC church that my friend has been called to in Sunnyvale (which is supposedly pretty close to San Fran.


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## Josiah

what about First OPC in SF?


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## E Nomine

First OPC is a great church! I hope they get a Pastor soon.

New Covenant OPC in South San Francisco is very good, too (and much closer to me than Sunnyvale).


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## Romans922

then what do you need a pca church there for? besides if you got one, that would be in one of the most liberal presbyteries in the PCA, it would probably thus be a liberal church.


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## E Nomine

I don't know anything about PCA Presbyteries, but even a liberal PCA church would be a refreshing alternative to the 16 or so PCUSAs we have in the City.


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## TimV

> then what do you need a pca church there for? besides if you got one, that would be in one of the most liberal presbyteries in the PCA, it would probably thus be a liberal church.



The PCA church in Pleasanton isn't too far from SF, and is one of the most conservative churches in the country. Conservative in that they follow the BCO. It's one of three churches in NorCal that have a copy.


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## Oecolampadius

Romans922 said:


> then what do you need a pca church there for? besides if you got one, that would be in one of the most liberal presbyteries in the PCA, it would probably thus be a liberal church.



Andrew, you're a minister in the PCA right? Wow. I thought I'd never hear a PCA minister say that about his fellow PCA. Thank you for supporting the OPC. And, I'll also always keep in mind what Dr. Craig Troxel told me, that not all PCA are alike.


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## TimV

> I don't know anything about PCA Presbyteries, but even a liberal PCA church would be a refreshing alternative to the 16 or so PCUSAs we have in the City.



I don't know if the liberal PCA in SF has a new pastor yet. The pastor stepped down a few months ago, since he was found out to have been a practicing homosexual. He was also the long term Moderator of the PCA NorCal Presbytery.


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## raekwon

TimV said:


> I don't know anything about PCA Presbyteries, but even a liberal PCA church would be a refreshing alternative to the 16 or so PCUSAs we have in the City.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if the liberal PCA in SF has a new pastor yet. The pastor stepped down a few months ago, since he was found out to have been a practicing homosexual. He was also the long term Moderator of the PCA NorCal Presbytery.
Click to expand...


Source?


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## E Nomine

I heard "City Church" in SF was formerly affiliated with PCA, but they broke off a few years ago over the issue of woman elders, not a pastoral scandal.


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## sastark

Romans922 said:


> then what do you need a pca church there for? besides if you got one, that would be in one of the most liberal presbyteries in the PCA, it would probably thus be a liberal church.



Really? A city of 808,976 people, served by a single OPC congregation, which, if I'm being VERY generous, probably has less than 200 members. I can think of 808,776 reasons for planting a PCA church in San Francisco.

And a URCNA church...
And a ARP church...
And another OPC church...


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## Zac Nelson

In the first post, it was pointed out that total membership was 345,000. Would this be equivalent to saying that 345,000 people ATTEND PCA churches, or does it number refer to people that have officially signed membership forms etc. If not, the number of attendees could well be double that, when you consider children, and people that just come every week without formally signing up. 

Just curious so I can get a picture of the size.

I'm in Australia; I would estimate there would be less than 345,000 _genuine_ Christians of any denomination in the entire country. Most Aust Xians tend to be extremely liberal (PCUSA or Episcopalian equivalent), or prosperity gospel Charismatics with no discernible Xian beliefs.


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## Oecolampadius

sastark said:


> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> 
> then what do you need a pca church there for? besides if you got one, that would be in one of the most liberal presbyteries in the PCA, it would probably thus be a liberal church.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really? A city of 808,976 people, served by a single OPC congregation, which, if I'm being VERY generous, probably has less than 200 members. I can think of 808,776 reasons for planting a PCA church in San Francisco.
> 
> And a URCNA church...
> And a ARP church...
> And another OPC church...
Click to expand...


You are right. Reformed denominations need to plant more churches there. I wonder why this hasn't happened yet when San Francisco happens to be a major city.


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## TimV

No, it wasn't city church. I think Lewis Ruff pastored a church called All Nations.



> Source?



The relevant committee declared his adultery by sodomy public knowledge. I checked specifically to make sure this was the case. The committee leader was Bill Hawke if anyone wants to check. Another pastor who was ordaining arminians and baptists resigned this month as well. There's still a lot of fighting in the future, but the Confessional folks are on a roll.


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## he beholds

CharlieJ said:


> It represented the PCA as this booming entity - the most exciting movement since the hippies.



I'm a little disappointed that it didn't say "more exciting" than the hippies. I mean, there's real Love in the PCA.


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## Edward

SemperEruditio said:


> As far as answers to a couple of your questions. The PCA is very active in addressing church planting in under-class Black/Latino urban areas. The problem is there are few who seem to hear a call to these areas. The White brothers who do have a very tough time of it but still they are faithful. Look into Faith Christian Fellowship in Baltimore, MD. The pastor's wife wrote a book about their experiences. I have been in a local meeting with the African-American Ministries Coordinator, Wy Plummer. The problem is getting people to "go."



I visited a seemingly successful predominately Black church in the southern suburbs of Atlanta a few years ago. It's my understanding that there is one in north Jackson, MS, as well. Last time I looked, there were two Black PCA pastors laboring in the North Texas Presbytery (both at predominately white churches). I think I recall a predominately Black PCA plant in Birmingham. 

I'm sure there are more; I'm going from memory, not research, here. And there are a bunch of Hispanic plants around the country - some in areas that you would not think of. 

And, finally, before anyone casts any more bricks ( a comment NOT aimed at the poster to whom I am responding), let them first count the number of Korean presbyteries in the PCA.


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## sastark

Chippy said:


> sastark said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> 
> then what do you need a pca church there for? besides if you got one, that would be in one of the most liberal presbyteries in the PCA, it would probably thus be a liberal church.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really? A city of 808,976 people, served by a single OPC congregation, which, if I'm being VERY generous, probably has less than 200 members. I can think of 808,776 reasons for planting a PCA church in San Francisco.
> 
> And a URCNA church...
> And a ARP church...
> And another OPC church...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are right. Reformed denominations need to plant more churches there. I wonder why this hasn't happened yet when San Francisco happens to be a major city.
Click to expand...


Not to get off-topic, too much, but I think there are two reasons: 1) San Francisco is not an easy place to evangelize. 2) San Francisco is an urban-core city, not an affluent suburb, which is where it seems the majority of Reformed church plants are located.


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## Michael Butterfield

raekwon said:


> TimV said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know anything about PCA Presbyteries, but even a liberal PCA church would be a refreshing alternative to the 16 or so PCUSAs we have in the City.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if the liberal PCA in SF has a new pastor yet. The pastor stepped down a few months ago, since he was found out to have been a practicing homosexual. He was also the long term Moderator of the PCA NorCal Presbytery.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Source?
Click to expand...


The Source has been given already, but I did want to say again that it is public knowledge. Ruff used to be in the OPC. Actually, an OPC faternal delegate was also at the presbytery meeting in which Ruff was defrocked. This is all public knowledge in Northern California.



-----Added 5/28/2009 at 09:41:12 EST-----



sastark said:


> Chippy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sastark said:
> 
> 
> 
> Really? A city of 808,976 people, served by a single OPC congregation, which, if I'm being VERY generous, probably has less than 200 members. I can think of 808,776 reasons for planting a PCA church in San Francisco.
> 
> And a URCNA church...
> And a ARP church...
> And another OPC church...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are right. Reformed denominations need to plant more churches there. I wonder why this hasn't happened yet when San Francisco happens to be a major city.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not to get off-topic, too much, but I think there are two reasons: 1) San Francisco is not an easy place to evangelize. 2) San Francisco is an urban-core city, not an affluent suburb, which is where it seems the majority of Reformed church plants are located.
Click to expand...




Yes, we need more and more reformed church in this dark city.


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## Edward

sastark said:


> Not to get off-topic, too much, but I think there are two reasons: 1) San Francisco is not an easy place to evangelize. 2) San Francisco is an urban-core city, not an affluent suburb, which is where it seems the majority of Reformed church plants are located.



You don't think the large number of militant homosexuals might be a third reason?


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## fredtgreco

Edward said:


> SemperEruditio said:
> 
> 
> 
> As far as answers to a couple of your questions. The PCA is very active in addressing church planting in under-class Black/Latino urban areas. The problem is there are few who seem to hear a call to these areas. The White brothers who do have a very tough time of it but still they are faithful. Look into Faith Christian Fellowship in Baltimore, MD. The pastor's wife wrote a book about their experiences. I have been in a local meeting with the African-American Ministries Coordinator, Wy Plummer. The problem is getting people to "go."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I visited a seemingly successful predominately Black church in the southern suburbs of Atlanta a few years ago. It's my understanding that there is one in north Jackson, MS, as well. Last time I looked, there were two Black PCA pastors laboring in the North Texas Presbytery (both at predominately white churches). I think I recall a predominately Black PCA plant in Birmingham.
> 
> I'm sure there are more; I'm going from memory, not research, here. And there are a bunch of Hispanic plants around the country - some in areas that you would not think of.
> 
> And, finally, before anyone casts any more bricks ( a comment NOT aimed at the poster to whom I am responding), let them first count the number of Korean presbyteries in the PCA.
Click to expand...


Edward,

Thanks for mentioning this. The PCA is not exactly multi-cultural, but we are certainly broadening our church planting efforts. There is also good man (the same one who planted the Birmingham church you mentioned) planting a multi-cultural church in the Dallas area now. Our church is partnering with him.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Edward said:


> And, finally, before anyone casts any more bricks ( a comment NOT aimed at the poster to whom I am responding), let them first count the number of Korean presbyteries in the PCA.



Why does the PCA separate the Koreans into their own Presbyteries? In the ARP the Koreans and the Anglos share Presbyteries. In fact my Presbytery of the Northeast is actually a majority Korean presbytery


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## Edward

fredtgreco said:


> Thanks for mentioning this. The PCA is not exactly multi-cultural, but we are certainly broadening our church planting efforts. There is also good man (the same one who planted the Birmingham church you mentioned) planting a multi-cultural church in the Dallas area now. Our church is partnering with him.



Does that make 3 Black pastors in North Texas Presbytery?
I was thinking of Elliott G. and Julian R. 

Is the new work through the network, or a direct plant?

-----Added 5/28/2009 at 11:01:06 EST-----



Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Why does the PCA separate the Koreans into their own Presbyteries? In the ARP the Koreans and the Anglos share Presbyteries. In fact my Presbytery of the Northeast is actually a majority Korean presbytery



It's been their choice, to my understanding. I recall at least one Korean congregation that opted for the general presbytery, rather than the Korean group. But when the issue has been raised over the years, they have supported the current structure. 

The first Korean presbytery was established in 1982. Given that date, it may have been an artifact of the 'Joining and Receiving' with the RPC,ES. Perhaps someone with institutional memory can shed some light on that point.


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## SemperEruditio

Edward said:


> SemperEruditio said:
> 
> 
> 
> As far as answers to a couple of your questions. The PCA is very active in addressing church planting in under-class Black/Latino urban areas. The problem is there are few who seem to hear a call to these areas. The White brothers who do have a very tough time of it but still they are faithful. Look into Faith Christian Fellowship in Baltimore, MD. The pastor's wife wrote a book about their experiences. I have been in a local meeting with the African-American Ministries Coordinator, Wy Plummer. The problem is getting people to "go."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I visited a seemingly successful predominately Black church in the southern suburbs of Atlanta a few years ago. It's my understanding that there is one in north Jackson, MS, as well. Last time I looked, there were two Black PCA pastors laboring in the North Texas Presbytery (both at predominately white churches). I think I recall a predominately Black PCA plant in Birmingham.
> 
> I'm sure there are more; I'm going from memory, not research, here. And there are a bunch of Hispanic plants around the country - some in areas that you would not think of.
> 
> And, finally, before anyone casts any more bricks ( a comment NOT aimed at the poster to whom I am responding), let them first count the number of Korean presbyteries in the PCA.
Click to expand...


Last count I think there were 36 African-American teaching elders in the PCA. Not sure how many have a predominantly Black/Brown congregation. However color is mute. Randy Nabor at New City Fellowship is technically a White guy and serves a multi-ethnic congregation. His church, from what I've been told, is the PCA model for a multi-ethnic church plant.

The most unfortunate thing is there is no reason why there cannot be more African-American teaching elders. Anthony Bradley, who graduated from Covenant and now teaches there after earning his PhD from WTS-Philly tells me there is money. There is money for African-Americans, and I think minorities in general, to receive an M.Div from Covenant at no cost to the student and no takers.

Like I said those middle-upper class Caucasian PCA churches are doing what they can with their money. It is up to us to speak to our Black/Brown brothers/sisters. While it is everyone's responsibility I now place the greater portion of the burden on our Black/Brown PCA folk.


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## sastark

Edward said:


> sastark said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not to get off-topic, too much, but I think there are two reasons: 1) San Francisco is not an easy place to evangelize. 2) San Francisco is an urban-core city, not an affluent suburb, which is where it seems the majority of Reformed church plants are located.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't think the large number of militant homosexuals might be a third reason?
Click to expand...


That was covered under number 1.


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## ColdSilverMoon

SemperEruditio said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SemperEruditio said:
> 
> 
> 
> As far as answers to a couple of your questions. The PCA is very active in addressing church planting in under-class Black/Latino urban areas. The problem is there are few who seem to hear a call to these areas. The White brothers who do have a very tough time of it but still they are faithful. Look into Faith Christian Fellowship in Baltimore, MD. The pastor's wife wrote a book about their experiences. I have been in a local meeting with the African-American Ministries Coordinator, Wy Plummer. The problem is getting people to "go."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I visited a seemingly successful predominately Black church in the southern suburbs of Atlanta a few years ago. It's my understanding that there is one in north Jackson, MS, as well. Last time I looked, there were two Black PCA pastors laboring in the North Texas Presbytery (both at predominately white churches). I think I recall a predominately Black PCA plant in Birmingham.
> 
> I'm sure there are more; I'm going from memory, not research, here. And there are a bunch of Hispanic plants around the country - some in areas that you would not think of.
> 
> And, finally, before anyone casts any more bricks ( a comment NOT aimed at the poster to whom I am responding), let them first count the number of Korean presbyteries in the PCA.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Last count I think there were 36 African-American teaching elders in the PCA. Not sure how many have a predominantly Black/Brown congregation. However color is mute. Randy Nabor at New City Fellowship is technically a White guy and serves a multi-ethnic congregation. His church, from what I've been told, is the PCA model for a multi-ethnic church plant.
> 
> *The most unfortunate thing is there is no reason why there cannot be more African-American teaching elders. *Anthony Bradley, who graduated from Covenant and now teaches there after earning his PhD from WTS-Philly tells me there is money. There is money for African-Americans, and I think minorities in general, to receive an M.Div from Covenant at no cost to the student and no takers.
> 
> Like I said those middle-upper class Caucasian PCA churches are doing what they can with their money. It is up to us to speak to our Black/Brown brothers/sisters. While it is everyone's responsibility I now place the greater portion of the burden on our Black/Brown PCA folk.
Click to expand...


I agree, especially with the bold-face statement. I don't think it's "wrong" for the PCA to be predominantly White and suburban, but it could certainly be enhanced with more diversity in its congregations. Even the New York City PCA churches are almost entirely White and Asian (including the TE's), which is at great odds with the local population. It seems like more Hispanic and Black TE's would help improve diversity...


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## raekwon

ColdSilverMoon said:


> SemperEruditio said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edward said:
> 
> 
> 
> I visited a seemingly successful predominately Black church in the southern suburbs of Atlanta a few years ago. It's my understanding that there is one in north Jackson, MS, as well. Last time I looked, there were two Black PCA pastors laboring in the North Texas Presbytery (both at predominately white churches). I think I recall a predominately Black PCA plant in Birmingham.
> 
> I'm sure there are more; I'm going from memory, not research, here. And there are a bunch of Hispanic plants around the country - some in areas that you would not think of.
> 
> And, finally, before anyone casts any more bricks ( a comment NOT aimed at the poster to whom I am responding), let them first count the number of Korean presbyteries in the PCA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Last count I think there were 36 African-American teaching elders in the PCA. Not sure how many have a predominantly Black/Brown congregation. However color is mute. Randy Nabor at New City Fellowship is technically a White guy and serves a multi-ethnic congregation. His church, from what I've been told, is the PCA model for a multi-ethnic church plant.
> 
> *The most unfortunate thing is there is no reason why there cannot be more African-American teaching elders. *Anthony Bradley, who graduated from Covenant and now teaches there after earning his PhD from WTS-Philly tells me there is money. There is money for African-Americans, and I think minorities in general, to receive an M.Div from Covenant at no cost to the student and no takers.
> 
> Like I said those middle-upper class Caucasian PCA churches are doing what they can with their money. It is up to us to speak to our Black/Brown brothers/sisters. While it is everyone's responsibility I now place the greater portion of the burden on our Black/Brown PCA folk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree, especially with the bold-face statement. I don't think it's "wrong" for the PCA to be predominantly White and suburban, but it could certainly be enhanced with more diversity in its congregations. Even the New York City PCA churches are almost entirely White and Asian (including the TE's), which is at great odds with the local population. It seems like more Hispanic and Black TE's would help improve diversity...
Click to expand...


No argument here. Personally, I've wavered back and forth regarding whether or not I should start studying toward ordination as a TE (whether through a traditional seminary like Covenant, or one of the new "alternative"-type schools like ClearNote, REPC, LAMP, etc). Of course, it's ultimately a matter of whether or not God is calling me toward such a thing. I'm obviously convinced that he has called me to some extent of pastoral ministry, hence my ordination and service as an RE.

But, since the PCA is essentially a three-office denomination (despite what the position papers say), there's more discernment to be done. In the meantime, I'm working toward being licensed to preach in my presbytery.


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## Edward

SemperEruditio said:


> Last count I think there were 36 African-American teaching elders in the PCA.



We may not be counting the exact same group, then. One of the guys I was referring to is from another country.



> Not sure how many have a predominantly Black/Brown congregation.



I can think of a couple who aren't.



> However color is mute. Randy Nabor at New City Fellowship is technically a White guy and serves a multi-ethnic congregation. His church, from what I've been told, is the PCA model for a multi-ethnic church plant.


 There is an Anglo at the Christo Rey Spanish language mission in Dallas. I'm not sure that it is thriving, however. 


> The most unfortunate thing is there is no reason why there cannot be more African-American teaching elders.



Yes, there is. It appears that God, for His own good counsel, has not called them to that ministry yet.


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## Reepicheep

Romans922 said:


> then what do you need a pca church there for? besides if you got one, that would be in one of the most liberal presbyteries in the PCA, it would probably thus be a liberal church.



Please clarify what you mean by "liberal". Do they not hold to the authority of Scripture, etc.?


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## Pilgrim72

I left the OPC for the PCA in 2005...


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## rpeters

Wish the PCA would plant a mult-cultered church in the Kankakee area.


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## SemperEruditio

Newsletter 

Wy Plummer, PCA-MNA African American Ministries Coordinator

February 2009

Dear Friend

_Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all._
Colossians 3:11

The daughter of one of our members came to me recently asking if there was a PCA church in Austin TX like New City Fellowship. I had to admit ignorance and told her that I would get back to her. The young lady was going off to college and wanted to attend a PCA church with some degree of ethnic diversity. She wanted a worship experience similar to the one she had grown accustomed to at New City. After some investigating I suggested several PCA churches but warned her that she might be among the onesie-twosies. 

I have a friend who lives in Baton Rouge and recently discovered reformed theology. He visited Redeemer Church in Jackson MS and was impressed by the teaching as well as the fact that Pastor Mike Campbell was African American. He is frustrated with his current church and wondered if there was a multi-ethnic church like Redeemer in Baton Rouge. I told him that there are PCA churches in Baton Rouge but that he and his family might need to join the ranks of the onesie-twosies. He immediately knew what I meant and was concerned about feeling welcomed into the fellowship.

I met an African American gentleman on a plane who asked if I could recommend a good Bible teaching church in Atlanta. I was surprised by the question knowing that there were many African American churches in Atlanta. In his experience he found his choices to be limited to ether fundamentalist churches with rigid rules or “health and wealth” churches that were only interested in his money. What he wanted was a church that taught the Word of God from a reformed perspective. I told him about Redemption Fellowship in South Atlanta but he told me that he lived more than an hour away. I recommended a church closer to home, but warned him that he might be the only African American in attendance. At best he and his family would join one or two other African Americans in attendance becoming what I called the onesie-twosies.

Onesie-twosies is a term I coined to describe many PCA churches that have one or two African Americans in attendance. When my wife and I attended a PCA church for the first time in 1981 we were the only African Americans. I noticed when I visited the nearby McLean Presbyterian there was also only one other African American family
~ Over please ~
~ Page 2 ~

in attendance. We got to know the family and began to describe ourselves as the onesie-twosies. When I visited other PCA churches I noticed that most of the churches had at least one or two African Americans in attendance, thus the term - onesie-twosies. 

Not all African Americans are prepared to be onesie-twosies. It’s difficult being the only one. Most prefer to attend a church where there are others like themselves or at least where there is some degree of ethnic diversity. What I often hear from onesie-twosies is - “I don’t really like the worship experience, but I love the teaching.” I can’t tell you the number of times that I’ve heard this statement repeated. Often they continue by saying, “I would love to attend a PCA church where they are more culturally sensitive but they just don’t exist. Can the PCA plant a multi-ethnic church in my neighborhood?” 

Presently I am aware of three cities that want to plant PCA churches with African American leadership. Some of our white church planters are looking for an African American partner and will not begin the work until they find such a person. There are three multi-ethnic churches with vacant pulpits looking for African American pastors. The call for African American leadership far exceeds the supply. Will you join with me in praying that God will raise up more African American leaders? Will you pray that there will be increasing numbers of African Americans interested in Seminary? Will you pray that our present PCA churches will take a strong interest in other ethnic groups so that people will no longer feel alone and isolated? Will you pray that God will tear down the wall of separation so that there will no longer be a need to describe a church as black or white?

If you, your church or presbytery want to be involved in this exciting ministry, first of all, please pray for us. Secondly, consider contributing financially. We are very grateful for those of you who are already supporting us and we welcome new partners. You may send your gifts to Mission to North America with the designation: African American Ministries, 1700 North Brown Road, Suite 101, Lawrenceville, GA 30043. Further information about the ministry of MNA can be found on our website at Welcome to the Mission to North America Homepage.

In His Service,

Plummer



The following is the May newsletter after a meeting with a group of churchplanters. Interesting stuff. You can see the PCA is praying and working for growth across the board.


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## Edward

Reepicheep said:


> Please clarify what you mean by "liberal". Do they not hold to the authority of Scripture, etc.?



That's usually the root cause of liberalism. The visible symptoms vary. There are issues with deaconesses, RPW, and other problems.


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## Kevin

Edward said:


> Reepicheep said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please clarify what you mean by "liberal". Do they not hold to the authority of Scripture, etc.?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's usually the root cause of liberalism. The visible symptoms vary. There are issues with deaconesses, RPW, and other problems.
Click to expand...


Uhm... You do know that "Liberal" has a specific meaning when used in a theological context? And as important as RPW & deaconesses may be to you they are not included in that definition.

The classic or traditional use of "Liberal" is one that denies the authority of scripture, the divinity of Christ, the virgin birth, & the bodily resurection.

Next to these doctrines, the use of a piano in worship, or (if) the needs of women in the church (are the reponsibility of a specific female 'officer', or are to be the responibility of 'wives of officers') seems to be fairly minor.


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## Edward

Kevin said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reepicheep said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please clarify what you mean by "liberal". Do they not hold to the authority of Scripture, etc.?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's usually the root cause of liberalism. The visible symptoms vary. There are issues with deaconesses, RPW, and other problems.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Uhm... You do know that "Liberal" has a specific meaning when used in a theological context? And as important as RPW & deaconesses may be to you they are not included in that definition.
> 
> The classic or traditional use of "Liberal" is one that denies the authority of scripture, the divinity of Christ, the virgin birth, & the bodily resurection.
> 
> Next to these doctrines, the use of a piano in worship, or (if) the needs of women in the church (are the reponsibility of a specific female 'officer', or are to be the responibility of 'wives of officers') seems to be fairly minor.
Click to expand...


Well, if we're going to take that tone, you do know that there is a difference between 'cause' and 'symptom', don't you?


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