# Where Have All the Trainers Gone?



## Simply_Nikki (Mar 5, 2010)

Greetings all once more,

I would like to solicit your thoughts on a matter that has been troubling me for some time since I began understanding passages that talk about "training":



> Train up a child in the way he should go;even when he is old he will not depart from it.
> Proverbs 22:6
> 
> Have nothing to do with irreverent, silly myths. Rather train yourself for godliness;
> ...


When I think of the verb "to train", it seems to connote a hands on approach. I am troubled by, at least from my own context, the dearth of discipleship in today's churches, especially when it comes to cultivating godly marriages within the family of God. I do not see much training of the younger women or younger men in how to love their husbands or love their wives, how to be responsible young men and women, and how we approach the subject of marrying well. 

Today we hear a sermon or two on the matter of marriage, we'll read books by wonderful Christian authors about what marriage is, hoping to absorb its principles, we are told marriage is good and should be desired, but are never really trained in how to _practically_ get from point A to point B. It seems like in that regard, you're on your own. 

I know that many are blessed with godly parents who already do this. But for those of us (like myself) who never had godly or knowledgeable parents to train us about our roles as women and men in the Lord, the necessity for older brothers and sisters to come along side us, to lead, walk and pray with us is paramount. 

Why do you think this phenomenon is so prevalent in our churches today? Especially when our culture is so sexually perverse, where temptations abound every way one turns, where the downplaying of marriage is ubiquitous, and the rejection of the roles of men and women is an acceptable "fact". What can we do to reverse this trend?

Sincerely,


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## rbcbob (Mar 5, 2010)

Nikki, my wife is attending a "Titus 2" meeting with women tomorrow at our church. Such ought to be going on in some form or fashion in all churches but perhaps it has fallen out of fashion in contemporary Christianity.


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## Puritan Sailor (Mar 5, 2010)

I agree that there's a discipleship gap. And their's probably some cultural prolems playing into all this. One, we live in a culture where, unless you are a liberal socialist government employee, you don't tell people how to live, that's suppose to be personal. Two, we rely too much on spontaneous and esctatic experiences to provide us meaning. Training requires repetition and routine. It requires self-discipline not only to learn good habits and skills but to receive correction from others with grace. Such a life just seems boring to many people, but underlying it all is just the desire for laziness and a life of ease. Perhaps, I'm too harsh, maybe cynical.... but I think it's part of the problem.


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## calgal (Mar 5, 2010)

Bob these meetings are out there but in my experience, Women's Ministries are a mixed bag. Unless there is a pastor's wife or elder's wife who is a strong leader and who "gets it", What many women think of as "Titus 2" aka "training" is often just a gossip session or a clique or something else that is better left in Jr High. It is because the leaders often were not taught themselves about what discipleship really is.


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## Simply_Nikki (Mar 5, 2010)

rbcbob said:


> Nikki, my wife is attending a "Titus 2" meeting with women tomorrow at our church. Such ought to be going on in some form or fashion in all churches but perhaps it has fallen out of fashion in contemporary Christianity.



Brother Bob,

Yes, Titus 2 like studies are great in teaching women about biblical femininity and godliness. However, I suppose I am thinking of a more focused type discipleship, where maybe an older woman is paired with a younger woman in the congregation, and in a sense becomes like a "spiritual mother" to her. She would train her in practical life skills that will help her to become a godly wife. Women would meet with each other outside of the structured time allotments within the church, where a deeper relationship can be cultivated. People in the church would help women and men to find godly spouses, we'd discuss things like homeschooling, parenting, the tumultuousness of navigating relationships, and what we can do to prepare ourselves for marriage. These are some of the things I'd like to see more of in the church today and I would like to help cultivate it in some way.

I would like to see more of this in men's ministry as well. So often I find men who have the desire to be married but have no idea in how to navigate the, sometimes awkward, spaces of relationships with women. And often times they are left to themselves to figure it out, many times to the detriment of both the lad and lady involved. I feel that if we better understood our proper roles and how we are to go about getting from singleness to marriage, we need older men and women in the Lord to really show us how to do so, rather than leaving it up to us to apply these, sometimes, vague principles on our own. Do you see what I mean? 

---------- Post added at 09:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:36 PM ----------



calgal said:


> Bob these meetings are out there but in my experience, Women's Ministries are a mixed bag. Unless there is a pastor's wife or elder's wife who is a strong leader and who "gets it", What many women think of as "Titus 2" aka "training" is often just a gossip session or a clique or something else that is better left in Jr High. It is because the leaders often were not taught themselves about what discipleship really is.



Indeed Gail, this can also be a problem!

---------- Post added at 09:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:37 PM ----------




Puritan Sailor said:


> I agree that there's a discipleship gap. And their's probably some cultural prolems playing into all this. One, we live in a culture where, unless you are a liberal socialist government employee, you don't tell people how to live, that's suppose to be personal. Two, we rely too much on spontaneous and esctatic experiences to provide us meaning. Training requires repetition and routine. It requires self-discipline not only to learn good habits and skills but to receive correction from others with grace. Such a life just seems boring to many people, but underlying it all is just the desire for laziness and a life of ease. Perhaps, I'm too harsh, maybe cynical.... but I think it's part of the problem.


 
Brother Patrick,

I agree with you in large extent about the seclusive nature of younger people today. I think much of it stems from a sense of arrogance. We feel we do not need hands on training, because we've already read the books, and through some sort of osmosis process we can magically apply these principles in our own lives. This simply is not so. I believe that the example of a sheppard not only applies to pastors. When we talk about seeking people and being intentional with our relationships with them, it is much like being a sheppard. Older brothers and sisters I think need to begin seeking out these younger people, especially those of college aged years where the parents may be far away, or perhaps the parents aren't even Christians. I think I would like to begin doing this with the women in my own bible study, seeing where they are and the possible ways I can help them to shape a more biblical worldview. 

Perhaps the real issue is "time". Are we making time to fellowship with the members of our church outside of the regular Sunday/Wednesday schedules? Are we taking the time to cultivate discipleship and build strong relationships or are we hoping someone else will do it? 

It is so essential, especially during this age, that we really step up to help younger Christians. Study after study has shown virtually no statistical difference between many young professing Christians and the world with regards to attitudes and behavioral practices. Something has shifted, something is now lacking that needs to be revitalized in our churches to disciple young people.


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## Carolyn (Mar 6, 2010)

I am someone who has worked on this issue in a past church, but from the "other side". I was in my early 40s at the time and thought that it would be good to get a group of women together who fit in the "older" category and do a study that aimed us at being mentors to younger women in the church.

Results: There was a great attendance at the study, but at the end when it was time to organize the mentorship program, none of the women were interested. The most common reason was "I can't mentor anyone. I still need to be mentored myself." They weren't reassured by the statements in the materials that, "mentors don't need to be perfect." By the last meeting, they were wanting me to set them up with mentors. That wasn't possible as the age group they wanted to mentor them had health issues and/or was in assisted living.

The Boomer generation is known for never considering themselves as adults. (Don't call me Mrs. Smith! That's my mother-in-law.) It seems that the Gen. Xers are following in their footsteps with the addition of feminized men.

Some of the younger women have been extremely difficult to work with. They can be incredibly demanding of the older woman's time and demanding perfect accord in all child rearing and other life issues. To older women, they can seem fixated on sexual issues, willing to discuss problems and practices in such graphic detail that the older women will have difficulty looking at them or their husbands, much less socializing with them. Some of the sexual practices that are considered normal now were unheard of in heterosexual couples a generation ago, and some simply unheard of. 

Nikki, what might work is to approach someone who has a particular skill set you admire and ask her to meet with you a few times to pass on some tips. It would help if you had done some work on your own in those areas so you can ask for specific help or advice. Most women don't know what to do if someone comes up and says, "Will you teach me to sew?" It helps to break it down into less intimidating bites, "Will you come help me choose a skirt pattern and some fabric? I don't want to get in over my head as a beginner."

In our church we have "Project Nights". Those are good times for younger women to bring their knitting or whatever and ask questions. It is also a good time for conversation about life issues, Christian encouragement, and prayer. Cooking demonstrations work well for this also, as there are great fellowship opportunities while eating the product. A woman who cleans houses well and a volunteer "hostess" could do a house cleaning demonstration. I've done an impromptu lecture on laundry and one on grocery shopping and those were fun!

Prayer, patience, and persistence is what is going to win the day in the end!


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## calgal (Mar 6, 2010)

Carolyn:

I like the idea of project nights. They are a great way to learn skills without feeling like a dummy head (I don't "do" women's retreats: my weekends are for cleaning and my family). 

One thing about my generation, Gen X is that we are for the most part latch key kids. Or children of divorce (there were 4 of my group of HS friends who had both parents married to each other: most of the rest had step parents or "aunts" or "uncles"). Etiquette, manners and too many times, morals came from our dysfunctional parents (who were too many times shedding the "outdated" morals they were taught), after school specials, Davy & Goliath (loved that show!) and our peer group. Many of us have no idea how to be married well (we learn by trial and error) and spiritually we are a mess. To come back to Nikki's original question, the Boomers never taught us, we learned on our own (and not always well) and there is nobody other than some sweet little old ladies in nursing homes who are not in good enough health to handle our baggage.


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## JennyG (Mar 6, 2010)

I'm glad to see this addressed - it's an important subject.

If you'll forgive me for the frivolity though - 
when I first saw the heading, I was very tempted to reply "well, quite a lot of them are under my son's bed..."


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## JBaldwin (Mar 6, 2010)

This is a great discussion. 


> I agree with you in large extent about the seclusive nature of younger people today. I think much of it stems from a sense of arrogance. We feel we do not need hands on training, because we've already read the books, and through some sort of osmosis process we can magically apply these principles in our own lives. This simply is not so. I believe that the example of a sheppard not only applies to pastors. When we talk about seeking people and being intentional with our relationships with them, it is much like being a sheppard. Older brothers and sisters I think need to begin seeking out these younger people, especially those of college aged years where the parents may be far away, or perhaps the parents aren't even Christians. I think I would like to begin doing this with the women in my own bible study, seeing where they are and the possible ways I can help them to shape a more biblical worldview.



You make a good point about the arrogance. I have seen that in the church all too much in my lifetime. Most of the mentoring I received came directly from my mother who has always had an ear to listen to me. I believe the reason why church women don't open up is because they have a fear of being "exposed" as being weak. To mentor means you have to expose who you are and what you've learned. As a result, we close ourselves off from the people in the church who need us the most. On the flip side, I've seen too many women teachers who get up in front of other women and act like they have perfect marriages, perfect lives and perfect relationships to the Lord as if that is what women need to aspire to. Both behaviors which really stem from the same problem (fear of exposure) are detrimental to the growth and health of the women in the church. 

I am pleased at what I see in my own young church. There is a transparency among the older women who've taken on the role of leading a women's Bible study once a week and planning a ladies night out for all the women in the church once a month. There is also a women's prayer meeting. Getting together with the women outside the church allows for development of friendships and a good basis for discipleship. 

I will add that the I believe the reason why so many women's groups turn into gossip sessions is because, again, women are not willing to admit they are weak and need God's grace and help. To shore up their egos, they pick at other weaker women. 

The mentoring begins with our own hearts, whether we are the ones needing mentoring (we all do, no matter what age), and those doing the mentoring.


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## Scott1 (Mar 6, 2010)

You're right in your observations, Nikki.

We can't get past the fact that a primary ordinary means God has ordained to disciple is the family. When the effects of sin breaks that, while it can be forgiven, the consequences can last a lifetime, even to three and four generations. That's why it's so important what we do now... our sin can have effects down to three and four generations. In the blindness of sin, we imagine it is only "right now."

Another mechanism, other than the normal, in-tact nuclear family, is the church. The church can't replace the nuclear family, and expectation ought not be set that it can. But the church can do many things like one. That's why it is so important it hold the biblical standards, reflected by biblical qualification for officers (an exemplary, not perfect, but exemplary life, including family). Also, that men lead as is reflective of the creation order. (This is why it is so important for men to lead as deacons, elders and ministers and not reverse this abnormally, for example with women deacons).

A third mechanism, which has been mentioned, is Titus 2, older women discipling younger women. This can happen formally through the church, and also informally between Christians who are members of the same church, even outside of that.

The key is to focus on being faithful with the life and circumstances God has given you, whatever they are. Seek His redemption of whatever limitations He has ordained, and His Honor and Glory with your life.

It's all about us, ourselves, doing that, asking God for grace to bear difficulty, and trusting Him for the results. It's not about expecting others, the church, or other people doing that, though God can and does use them to do so.


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## jwithnell (Mar 6, 2010)

Our churches need to recognize that many people coming through our doors have no church background whatsoever -- that affects everything from their understanding, habits, relationships, ability to deal with the scripture ... you name it. In my experience, official programs are only sometimes successful. For one person to mentor another, there needs to be a certain chemistry. (One organization, Marriage Savers, is big on trying to match a couple to a mentor couple that has had similar backgrounds and issues.)

At our church work by groups with strong men's and women's groups where we have people at all stages in their lives including those who are just now dipping their toes into the church waters. And I think we all need to be on the lookout to come along side those who are younger, less mature in their faith, or just in plain need.


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## Simply_Nikki (Mar 6, 2010)

Carolyn said:


> I am someone who has worked on this issue in a past church, but from the "other side". I was in my early 40s at the time and thought that it would be good to get a group of women together who fit in the "older" category and do a study that aimed us at being mentors to younger women in the church.
> 
> Results: There was a great attendance at the study, but at the end when it was time to organize the mentorship program, none of the women were interested. The most common reason was "I can't mentor anyone. I still need to be mentored myself." They weren't reassured by the statements in the materials that, "mentors don't need to be perfect." By the last meeting, they were wanting me to set them up with mentors. That wasn't possible as the age group they wanted to mentor them had health issues and/or was in assisted living.
> 
> The Boomer generation is known for never considering themselves as adults. (Don't call me Mrs. Smith! That's my mother-in-law.) It seems that the Gen. Xers are following in their footsteps with the addition of feminized men.



Yes, I understand the feeling of inadequacy, not everyone can be a professional counselor, but that is not what we are called to be. I think we expect our pastors and/or their wives to the be hands, eyes, nose, mouth, arms and legs of the body of Christ, when we should be seeking to fulfill those roles, as God leads us to acts of service within the church. I am not yet four and twenty, but I know that I have something to offer to women who are younger than I am, who are going through the college experience. I think John Angell James as he quotes Adlophe Monod says it best:

"The greatest influence on earth whether for good or for evil, is possessed by woman! Let us study the history of by-gone ages, the state of barbarism and civilization; of the east and the west; of Paganism and Christianity; of antiquity and the middle ages; of the medieval and modern times; and we shall find that there is nothing which more decidedly separates them than the condition of woman."



Carolyn said:


> Some of the younger women have been extremely difficult to work with. They can be incredibly demanding of the older woman's time and demanding perfect accord in all child rearing and other life issues. To older women, they can seem fixated on sexual issues, willing to discuss problems and practices in such graphic detail that the older women will have difficulty looking at them or their husbands, much less socializing with them. Some of the sexual practices that are considered normal now were unheard of in heterosexual couples a generation ago, and some simply unheard of.



Yes, I do not want to play the "blame game". I know that our culture has all but turned away from "listening to our elders". I have heard about some women's groups being sexually graphic in terms of how to please one's husband. I think this is quite unbecoming. While certain questions about husband/wife relationships and intimacy can be appropriately discussed, graphic details of one's intimate life is beyond the bounds of "mentorship". In that case a mentor should tell such young women to communicate these things with their husbands. 



Carolyn said:


> Nikki, what might work is to approach someone who has a particular skill set you admire and ask her to meet with you a few times to pass on some tips. It would help if you had done some work on your own in those areas so you can ask for specific help or advice. Most women don't know what to do if someone comes up and says, "Will you teach me to sew?" It helps to break it down into less intimidating bites, "Will you come help me choose a skirt pattern and some fabric? I don't want to get in over my head as a beginner."



I was blessed enough to be approached by a woman from a different church I had attended who actually wanted to be involved with my life and train me into a godly woman. She was truly God sent. I did ask her how to sew, I had already gotten a sewing machine, patterns, and all the tools I would need. She offered to go with me to select patterns and she helped me to interpret the pattern instructions. With her help, I completely my first skirt!  I don't know how I could progress in my christian walk without meeting someone like her. She has been an valuable assist in alerting me to preparatory things I could do to become a more mature christian woman, and if God wills, a christian wife and mother. I think we need more people like her in churches.



Carolyn said:


> Prayer, patience, and persistence is what is going to win the day in the end!



Amen, I will be in fervent prayer in regards to what I can do to help reverse this concerning trend. To help bring women back into the fold of biblical womanhood and to encourage men to seek out discipleship from other men is something I desire to see take place on a mass level within our churches once again!

---------- Post added at 02:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:27 PM ----------




calgal said:


> Carolyn:
> 
> I like the idea of project nights. They are a great way to learn skills without feeling like a dummy head (I don't "do" women's retreats: my weekends are for cleaning and my family).
> 
> One thing about my generation, Gen X is that we are for the most part latch key kids. Or children of divorce (there were 4 of my group of HS friends who had both parents married to each other: most of the rest had step parents or "aunts" or "uncles"). Etiquette, manners and too many times, morals came from our dysfunctional parents (who were too many times shedding the "outdated" morals they were taught), after school specials, Davy & Goliath (loved that show!) and our peer group. Many of us have no idea how to be married well (we learn by trial and error) and spiritually we are a mess. To come back to Nikki's original question, the Boomers never taught us, we learned on our own (and not always well) and there is nobody other than some sweet little old ladies in nursing homes who are not in good enough health to handle our baggage.



Gail, I empathize with you over this whole heartedly. And I pray God raise up faithful women, young and old, to take on the baggage and burdens of fellow sisters in Christ. I love my mother, but she had no clue up until about a few years ago about biblical roles of men and women. She is probably on the same plane in that regard as I am (actually, I may be a bit more knowledgeable on the subject than she is!). Much of it, I had to learn on my own, through articles, books, listening to sermons, etc...But I had always desired to have a mentor walk beside me and counsel me. The Lord has blessed me with two women who have sort of taken on this role. Gail, I think what you have learned and are learning can also be used to help younger sisters who have not gone through the stages of life you have yet. Let those of us who have had to learn the hard way be bold to not make the same mistakes for the generation after us. Nevertheless, I do understand the loss one feels in not having an example lived out before them.


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## christianyouth (Mar 6, 2010)

I'm not sure yet, but this is something I've considered a lot, the lack of transparancey and common relationships. If you just hang out with reuglar Christians who have similar goals, even if you meet them at a gas station or whatever, subjects like this come up. But for some reason, at my church and at other churches I have went to the topics of discussion are on very superficial things. I've been reading a lot of psychology lately and talking with some friends who are doing grad work in it, and I think the answer to a lot of problems like this come from wrong environment in the church.

But, I don't have that thought out enough yet so I can appeal to your experience to see if there is something stultifying in 'church culture'. Do you feel the difference between meeting a fellow Christian outside of attendance in a local assembly vs meeting one in the assembly? I do, and so far everyone I've talked to feels it to. There are some huge social dynamics at work in these assemblies that need to be identified and publicized. If this board wasn't public and I knew that my identity was anonymous I would share some of these sayings, but because my posts are read by older men who know me in real life and would see a 20 year old speaking on these like this to be seriously improper, I won't say anymore. I will just say that I believe the reason why discipleship isn't going on is because the way that we do 'church'--I'm sure there are other contributing factors that have already been spoken about in this thread, but my study of 1 Corinthians 5(seriously read that passage and look at the type of community that Paul is trying to foster--he assumes you will be able to identify 'sins of the heart' in your fellow brothers) and steady observation of church culture and street Christian culture that I've experienced through WOTM evangelism tells me that environment makes all the difference.

Anyways, good to see you posting again, Nikki. I think this is a good topic to examine since, as has been noted in this thread and your OP, a lot of emphasis is placed on discipleship in the NT.

EDIT to add: Basically the response that I've gotten the few times that I've voiced concerns very similar to yours is 'try harder', which really means compensate for any structural/environmental deficiency in your local church by just being that much more godly. People don't want the boat rocked, even low-Church Baptists still have a view that if change is going to happen it's going to come from the clergy.


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## kvanlaan (Mar 6, 2010)

I remember in a thread on homeschooling that someone said "well, parents aren't always the best influence in a child's life." Well, that may be, but it is the responsibility of the parents, regardless of whether or not they are the best influence. My source of authority over my family is the Lord. It is also to Him that I answer when it comes to my responsibilities. I think a lot of men have forgotten that, and take all the authority they can, while skipping out on as much responsibility as they can.



> Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it.
> Proverbs 22:6



Just remember that this promise can also be a curse. As noted in another post, that sin can pass three and four generations on.


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## Simply_Nikki (Mar 6, 2010)

Scott1 said:


> You're right in your observations, Nikki.
> 
> We can't get past the fact that a primary ordinary means God has ordained to disciple is the family. When the effects of sin breaks that, while it can be forgiven, the consequences can last a lifetime, even to three and four generations. That's why it's so important what we do now... our sin can have effects down to three and four generations. In the blindness of sin, we imagine it is only "right now."
> 
> ...


 


kvanlaan said:


> I remember in a thread on homeschooling that someone said "well, parents aren't always the best influence in a child's life." Well, that may be, but it is the responsibility of the parents, regardless of whether or not they are the best influence. My source of authority over my family is the Lord. It is also to Him that I answer when it comes to my responsibilities. I think a lot of men have forgotten that, and take all the authority they can, while skipping out on as much responsibility as they can.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
My Brothers,

Just to be clear, I would not presume to dismiss the role of the family in training a child up the way he/she should go. We cannot rely on the church to train our children for us, while we slack on those responsibilities, I wholeheartedly agree. You are right in saying that the effects of sin can permeate throughout generations. I am a product of such sinful permeation as I cannot recall a single example of a successful godly marriage, or of remaining faithful (abstinent) before marriage, or of a God honoring household in my entire family. However, I think as members of a covenant community we are our brothers' and sisters' keeper, especially if they were not blessed to grow up in a faithful Christian household or be trained biblically by their biological parents. I don't believe individualistic (ie. as long as I'm doing what is right in my own family then that is all I must worry about) thinking is enough to develop a healthy body. Not that this is what you were implying. 

Nevertheless, I see a healthy church as one where the stronger members build up the weaker, where we all take the initiative to be intentional in developing meaningful relationships with other members, where we show compassion for those battered by this broken world, where we show them Christ's redeeming love, and help them with their walk as they mature in the faith. While the Lord most certainly works through godly households, He nevertheless continues to draw many people out of ungodly ones. I just believe the necessity of older more mature Christians to help those coming from outside of covenant households, or seriously erred households, is paramount today, as I suppose it was in every age. While our spiritual growth is very much personal (between us and the Lord), it is also interpersonal (between us and the body of believers). We as a body cannot afford to look at the weaker members and say... build yourself up, we need to be willing to come along side and help them do so as well.

In Love,


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## kvanlaan (Mar 6, 2010)

> My Brothers,
> 
> Just to be clear, I would not presume to dismiss the role of the family in training a child up the way he/she should go. We cannot rely on the church to train our children for us, while we slack on those responsibilities, I wholeheartedly agree. You are right in saying that the effects of sin can permeate throughout generations. I am a product of such sinful permeation as I cannot recall a single example of a successful godly marriage, or of remaining faithful (abstinent) before marriage, or of a God honoring household in my entire family. However, I think as members of a covenant community we are our brothers' and sisters' keeper, especially if they were not blessed to grow up in a faithful Christian household or be trained biblically by their biological parents. I don't believe individualistic (ie. as long as I'm doing what is right in my own family then that is all I must worry about) thinking is enough to develop a healthy body. Not that this is what you were implying.
> 
> Nevertheless, I see a healthy church as one where the stronger members build up the weaker, where we all take the initiative to be intentional in developing meaningful relationships with other members, where we show compassion for those battered by this broken world, where we show them Christ's redeeming love, and help them with their walk as they mature in the faith. While the Lord most certainly works through godly households, He nevertheless continues to draw many people out of ungodly ones. I just believe the necessity of older more mature Christians to help those coming from outside of covenant households, or seriously erred households, is paramount today, as I suppose it was in every age. While our spiritual growth is very much personal (between us and the Lord), it is also interpersonal (between us and the body of believers). We as a body cannot afford to look at the weaker members and say... build yourself up, we need to be willing to come along side and help them do so as well.



Amen.

That's why we try to keep an eye out for one another, and its one more reason for elder visitation.


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## Scott1 (Mar 6, 2010)

And all this underscores also why there must be discipline in the church.

The tendency is good doctrine goes first, then any form of discipline. Covenant communities that do not have biblical doctrine as a basis of unity virtually never have discipline either. Those that do have good doctrine, the basis of the church is grounded in doctrinal agreement in reformed theology, often will have some discipline reflective of it. The fruits of that often, not always, but often will be a community unlike anything in this world. And it is very, very good.


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## christianyouth (Mar 6, 2010)

Can anyone testify to what Scott has said? I think a lot of others on here have realized that proper Reformed doctrine + church discipline does not in any way solve the community issue. I don't know, maybe the community issue is more for younger people or people who aren't having their social/fellow needs met by a spouse, but I know that a lot of guys I've talked to who are involved in church, some members on this forum, don't feel that discipline and right doctrine fosters a real community.

I mean, the churches with the best community are urban black churches where they have women teaching, charismatic healings, holy fist fighting, lol, I don't know--whatever they do they have some serious community. I mean, meeting 5 days a week and eating meals together all the time, going to each others homes and having friendships outside of the home.

And when you begin going to one of these churches, just for experimental/observation purposes, they WILL ask where you live and try to get you into an actual social network, not a Sunday School class. You're like a member of a family.

Ehh... I don't know, the myth that was being taught, almost rabidly, by Paul Washer and MacArthur that correct doctrines are the key to a healthy church has been disproved so many times in my experience, and from talking to a lot of people over the past four years, I think it's a fairly universal disappointment that Reformed people go through. It's probably one reason why Reformed people have compulsions to blog, like that being some type of compensatory mechanism for being in stuffy churches that don't have community(no hate).

So, can anyone else still testify that proper doctrine is the key to fixing the community problem? Because my past years in observing Reformed Christianity and heretical black, urban Christianity is making me believe that it's just some thing that people just say without having any real observational basis for the statement, like a way of propping up the 'in group', total IFB style.


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## kvanlaan (Mar 7, 2010)

> I mean, the churches with the best community are urban black churches where they have women teaching, charismatic healings, holy fist fighting, lol, I don't know--whatever they do they have some serious community. I mean, meeting 5 days a week and eating meals together all the time, going to each others homes and having friendships outside of the home.



Proper doctrine is the foundation without which all the community in the world doesn't matter.

Women teaching? Charismania? These are two *huge* reasons for proper doctrine. Huge.

My son gets together with his friends outside of church at least once and more like twice a week. And we're as frozen chosen as they come! (Rural URC, mostly dairy-farming types) And yet we can't get through a week without someone checking up on us (we've got a lot of kids, people are quick to help out) when we haven't been to a service that week. We're tight.



> And when you begin going to one of these churches, just for experimental/observation purposes, they WILL ask where you live and try to get you into an actual social network, not a Sunday School class. You're like a member of a family.



And that's the substitute for real biblical teaching and leadership. Feels good, fills up my social calendar. The Mormons do the same thing, and there's plenty of Jesus-talk there too.



> Can anyone testify to what Scott has said? I think a lot of others on here have realized that proper Reformed doctrine + church discipline does not in any way solve the community issue. I don't know, maybe the community issue is more for younger people or people who aren't having their social/fellow needs met by a spouse, but I know that a lot of guys I've talked to who are involved in church, some members on this forum, don't feel that discipline and right doctrine fosters a real community.



How can you have real community without it? I think a lot of this went off the tracks when people stopped disciplining their children properly at home. I always knew that my parents _really_ cared because they took the time to discipline me and then teach me what I'd done wrong and why I should turn from it. It drew me closer to them when I took it to heart, but did turn me away from closer fellowship with them when I took offense at them impinging upon "my" sovereignty. Do I have backup for this? You bet. Anecdotal, 'in my experience,' backup? Some, but not so much. I have most of the book of Proverbs instead. We try to read through that a couple of times a year at home and it brings out some great discussions - a man who hates his son lets him do what he wants, but I love my son, so I 'chasteneth him betimes.' It brings us closer when done properly (big red flag for fathers there - improper discipline will indeed provoke a child to wrath!)



> I don't know, the myth that was being taught, almost rabidly, by Paul Washer and MacArthur that correct doctrines are the key to a healthy church



No myth. When delivered in love (as they should always be, according to our Lord), they foster unique closeness and community.


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## christianyouth (Mar 7, 2010)

kvanlaan said:


> > I mean, the churches with the best community are urban black churches where they have women teaching, charismatic healings, holy fist fighting, lol, I don't know--whatever they do they have some serious community. I mean, meeting 5 days a week and eating meals together all the time, going to each others homes and having friendships outside of the home.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
That's interesting that you brought up how the Mormons fill up the social calendar. A girl who I was really impressed with moved out to NV a few years ago and became a Mormon recently, she was a devout Independent Baptist here in MI. Maybe a factor in that switch was the community she experienced in Mormonism that she didn't experience in IFB Christianity? I know that they're not biblical, but they understand how important social influence is, how pivotal that is in forming our beliefs. I guess I wish some Christian churches imitated that, I think we could all be more effective--especially single people. Like a lot of Christians I know don't experience what you experience. I'm thinking of my old church here. One time we got together and played basketball and it was an amazing time, but that was about it, other than that it was strict scheduled activities, and it was very In-and-out.


So the practice of the Mormons may be better than the practice of us orthodox Protestants, in regards to how they integrate people into their community. If we had excellent parents that would be a lot less, but when I was saved all I had was TBN and a church that allowed me to come in a couple of times a week, and it was drop in and drop out. That caused me a lot of problems and left me little wisdom so that I dropped out of high school with the intention of being a missionary because I felt 'impressed' by the Spirit to be a missionary and figured that the things I was learning were irrelevant to that end. I figured if I just watched TBN all day I would do better.

I'm not making a point here because I'm tired, but what I'm trying to say is that community is important, something you already admitted? So I'm not sure what point I was making?


Thanks for verifying Scott's observation though. I think the experience of community is different based on where you live. Discipline might be essential for unity, hmmmm...

I have a lot to think on so off to bed.


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## kvanlaan (Mar 7, 2010)

> Maybe a factor in that switch was the community she experienced in Mormonism that she didn't experience in IFB Christianity? I know that they're not biblical, but they understand how important social influence is, how pivotal that is in forming our beliefs. I guess I wish some Christian churches imitated that, I think we could all be more effective--especially single people.



Then she was never of us (or she may yet come to the truth, wiser for what she's seen). Let the Holy Spirit be pivotal, let the Spirit be effective.

Methods are nothing if the Holy Spirit is at work in the church. And if it is not, methods can't do anything anyway.


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## py3ak (Mar 7, 2010)

christianyouth said:


> Can anyone testify to what Scott has said? I think a lot of others on here have realized that proper Reformed doctrine + church discipline does not in any way solve the community issue. I don't know, maybe the community issue is more for younger people or people who aren't having their social/fellow needs met by a spouse, but I know that a lot of guys I've talked to who are involved in church, some members on this forum, don't feel that discipline and right doctrine fosters a real community.
> 
> I mean, the churches with the best community are urban black churches where they have women teaching, charismatic healings, holy fist fighting, lol, I don't know--whatever they do they have some serious community. I mean, meeting 5 days a week and eating meals together all the time, going to each others homes and having friendships outside of the home.
> 
> ...


 
Andrew, let me recommend James M. Ault's _Spirit and Flesh: Life in a Fundamentalist Baptist Church_. I think it could be helpful to you in understanding why there are those kinds of differences in churches, and perhaps help with some of the frustration you've felt about a lack of community. But a place can be your social support network without thereby being godly, as the unsound groups you reference demonstrate.


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## calgal (Mar 8, 2010)

kvanlaan said:


> > Maybe a factor in that switch was the community she experienced in Mormonism that she didn't experience in IFB Christianity? I know that they're not biblical, but they understand how important social influence is, how pivotal that is in forming our beliefs. I guess I wish some Christian churches imitated that, I think we could all be more effective--especially single people.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Stay in prayer for her continually. Kevin is right that the Holy Spirit is the most important factor and Andrew is as well: a cold unfriendly church does turn people's hearts cold (and yes I do know ham buns, stoic Hollanders and all that jazz: married into a family who is pretty traditional). There is a manifest difference between a cold church and the frozen chosen: the latter defrost pretty quickly.


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## Scott1 (Mar 8, 2010)

One of the foundational principles of reformed theology is:

The unity of the church must be grounded on doctrinal agreement.

This is what it means to be "confessional," and part of what "covenant community" means, especially the "covenant" part.

This is not true outside the church, and often not true in broadly evangelical churches. We might say the latter tends to a loose association of consenting adults, each evaluating their beliefs individually, nothing much further considered.

The problem is, biblically, it is Christ who makes us members of His church by adoption. God has specially revealed truth through His Word and it is not an option for His people. Not by ignorance or disobedience- it is a mark of His people, obedience and unity over what God has revealed for His creatures. That includes the discipline to enforce that. That's why Mr. Calvin said that a "true church" must have:

1) right teaching of the Word
2) right administration of the Sacraments

and implied a third,

3) church discipline

Now from that basis, good fellowship will flow. By "good" I mean rich, full and deep- there will be encouragement, pain, difficulty, correction, joy, support, abandonment, hypocrisy, help, concern. The whole realm of community in a fallen world. Yet, the community is marked by redemption. In a sense, things really are getting better, and part of the reason is discipline, sound doctrine, and all of the reason is Christ.

It means, by God's grace, learning to appreciate people you may not have anything in common with, externally, or even may not like. It's being committed to loving people, created in the image of God who have become spiritually related, not because they were good or attractive, but because God chose them to be so, as He chose you.

We live in a generation that imagines that the best commitments are those with no accountability, no discipline, everyone does their own thing, participating and loving conditionally. Our flesh says self sacrifice, suffering and denial are things to be avoided at all cost, and that applies to loving people. Yet Scripture, and Christ's example calls us to the exact opposite. (If you want an example of Christianity being "counter-culture," this is it).

That's not the way God operates with us. That's why the church is so different.


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## CNJ (Mar 8, 2010)

Nikki,

What a great thread ! Often in Reformed circles we are theologically trained, but don't have those personal connections of mentoring. Events in life come and we need Christians to pray for us, listen, help us cope and at times offer counsel. 

At the age of 65 I have had the privilege of being there for younger (often single) women. Now with the publication of my book I am by God's grace reaching more ladies (and even some men with the niceness problem). One lady last week said she read the book twice in two days and has passed it on to others.

I think us older women just need to be real with yourger women. We have often been in similar situations. But we always need to point them to biblical answers so God's Word is held up as the instruction for life. 

At my stage of life I also long for a mentor. My husband has been diagnosed with dementia and proactively I have sought out a widow in her 80s, radiant Christian, who now lives about 75 miles from me. She dealt with her husband's dementia for years.


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## jwithnell (Mar 8, 2010)

> Can anyone testify to what Scott has said? I think a lot of others on here have realized that proper Reformed doctrine + church discipline does not in any way solve the community issue.


The importance to the community comes from having a common play book -- on the most vital issues, you can expect a common viewpoint, or at least an overall framework that supports that view. (I.e., not every member is fully confessional, but you should be able to speak the truth with confidence knowing that it is the teaching of the church community.) I even see this in play in the micro community of the family. We can pull out a Bible and gently remind the other person, that this is what God says.

This underscores the necessity of bringing new folks along in the faith. The best ways can be socially -- either within formal church activities or by hospitality or by finding common interests that allow you to do something together and converse as you go. At this level, people can hear you and see how you go about your life in the light of what you say is true.


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## christianyouth (Mar 10, 2010)

Ahh! I think I derailed this thread, sorry Nikki and to the others who were posting on the regular topic. I just wanted to say that I think that what Nikki pointed out is a great reminder. It's easy to look at church as an 'event' and I think that's what A LOT of churches resemble. But remember, Nikki is talking about Calvinist churches that are biblical in their doctrines. That is why I don't agree with the myth that correct doctrine insures that the church will run efficiently: you can have a bunch of Westminster grads who are running around with inferiority complexes and passive aggressive behavioral patterns and creating a church 'tone'. You could have people who don't sleep well and have all kinds of chemical things going on making them unpleasant to be around, Gospel believing and all--better yet, you could have a lot of people who are authentic Christians but have had bad experiences with others and so don't have good social habits, so they go play chess or blog instead of being renewed by fellowship. 

They're Christians and they can all be avid endorsers of church-discipline. How will this bring about natural fellowship? How is the solution to the rampant problem of anti-social Christians church discipline, or some new commitment to a systematic expression of doctrine?

What if there is a practical, cultural reason? I'm almost positive there is a practical, non-doctrinal answer to this question because when I meet Christians out of church it's much different than meeting someone at a church on a Sunday-- there's a totally different energy, and it's not just an excitement at meeting a Christian, because it _persists_ throughout the relationship and each time you see this person. And many many people I've talked to testify to this similar phenomenon, a stultifying church atmosphere. If you're IFB, it's like a family reunion atmosphere and it's almost impossible to break.

There's a lot to consider with this and I think we should probe deeper than just there being no confession in the church. That gets extremely old and after you get out and experience Christendom in it's distinct flavors, seems implausible. It's like Lew Rockwell or whatever, whatever the phenomena he's observing, I know what he's going to say! It doesn't matter if it's diet, cosmology, theology, badminton, he's going to have the 'root cause' of it. That's pretty much what I pick up in the Reformed community a lot, that EVERY problem stems from not being Reformed enough. Well that works good until you find a bunch of awesome Reformed people who like to compulsively play chess instead of visiting with other Christians or until one time something bad happens in a non-interventionist market.

Posit some other potential answers and/or interact with my observations. I think this has the potential to be very enlightening for us. It will definitely help me think clearer on these issues and maybe have some new insights into this(anti-social Christianity), which I believe is the reason why discipleship isn't happening.

So to the question, 'where have all the trainers gone?' : they are watching Lost with their biological families. 

Thanks
- Andy

P.S. I'm going to be responding to this thread, but I'm not sure how regularly. Thanks to the people who responded to my observation and frustration. I would give out 'thanks' to you but my thanks received to thanked given ratio is way too lopsided, it's looking very suspicious, lol. Hey I'm a thankful guy, Calgal, Kevin, Scott1, Jwith, py3ak(I'll read that book) good responses.


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