# Nationalism in worship



## ValiantforTruth (Jun 14, 2010)

Our beloved church, where I have become a ruling elder in the last six months, has an (in my opinion) regrettable custom of mixing nationalism into the worship service on Memorial Day, Independence Day and Veterans Day. (Patriotic readings; recognition of veterans; nationalistic music). I object to this rather strongly, and I will be bringing it up at our next session meeting. I would be grateful if anyone else can think of any cogent arguments against this practice in addition to those I list below:

1. I will appeal to the regulative principle and the idolatrous nature of it.
2. I will share that I have met people who visited our church on July 4 and didn't return because they came to worship Christ, not Christ and the American State.
3. I will share that my wife, who is Brazilian, when I asked her how it made her feel, said "That's just how Americans are."
4. I will share that I would not dream of inviting my unbelieving friends to church on a Lord's Day where I knew we would be mixing nationalism with the worship of God.

I hope I don't offend anyone here on PB. I especially have no quarrel with veterans; many in my family have served in the military, including my brother currently. I just don't believe that nationalism has any place in the church.


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## littlepeople (Jun 14, 2010)

I think No. 1 should be sufficient.


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## Andres (Jun 14, 2010)

Man, Brandon beat me to it. What more is there than point #1? If the session isn't interested in the RPW, then no other reasons will matter.


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## Tim (Jun 14, 2010)

I have two short suggestions:

1. Why not encourage something outside of worship, on a Saturday?
2. It is useful to understand the difference between _patriotism_ and _nationalism_.


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## William Price (Jun 14, 2010)

I do agree with the original poster. The assembly of the saints as the church should be to honor God solely and bring glory to His name alone. Nationalism has no place in our worship, whether Presbyterian or Reformed Baptist.


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## jambo (Jun 14, 2010)

Politics and the church just do not mix. I think all 4 are valid however point 1 is the main point.

As an observer however I think it is a deeper rooted thing in the American mind. In recent years I have often heard the president say "God bless America". Whenever I hear it I think to myself "why?" Does not God bless his people (ie the church) and not a nation


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## raekwon (Jun 14, 2010)

Agreed w/ the above posters. The church I grew up in often mixed nationalism (and/or patriotism) in with corporate worship in those days, and it sickened me even then.

Including thanksgiving for our nation in the pastoral prayer (but not making it the whole of the prayer) should suffice for these occasions.


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## ValiantforTruth (Jun 14, 2010)

Tim said:


> I have two short suggestions:
> 
> 1. Why not encourage something outside of worship, on a Saturday?
> 2. It is useful to understand the difference between _patriotism_ and _nationalism_.


 
Thanks, that is a good suggestion. I guess I do not understand a distinction between patriotism and nationalism. I think it's called patriotism if you like it and nationalism if you don't like it; or patriotism if it's Americans and nationalism if it's National Socialists.

Mirriam-Webster has the following:

Patriotism: *1* : love for or devotion to one's country

Nationalism: *1* : loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups

So there it seems like a quantitative rather than a qualitative distinction.


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## Peairtach (Jun 14, 2010)

Maybe you need more services/sermons celebrating the fact that we are all part of the international nation known as the Church of the Living God, the Israel of God and that Jesus Christ is the King of Israel. (I Timothy 3:15; Galatians 6:16; Psalm 72)

These meek ones who acknowledge Christ as Lord and Saviour, will not just inherit the Land of Israel or the USA but the whole Earth (Matthew 5)

Psalm 72 is one of the most nationalistic songs there is (Sing it to the tune 'Effingham'). But it is about the transnational Israel of God that is incorporating all nations, and their glorious King and Saviour, Jesus Christ. (See e.g. Daniel 2:44)


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## toddpedlar (Jun 14, 2010)

Tim said:


> I have two short suggestions:
> 
> 1. Why not encourage something outside of worship, on a Saturday?
> 2. It is useful to understand the difference between _patriotism_ and _nationalism_.



1. I'm not sure having a Memorial day ceremony sponsored by the church or organized within the church as a church activity is an appropriate activity. Encouraging people to take part in civil activities put on by the community, as part of their call to be good citizens, is what I'd do, at most. 
2. The distinction you make doesn't bear on the original question. In either case, singing the National Anthem or My Country 'Tis of Thee is abhorrent to a sound understanding of worship. The motive (patriotism or nationalism) for singing those songs is totally irrelevant.


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## Tim (Jun 14, 2010)

Joshua said:


> Neither _patriotism_, nor _nationalism_ belongs in the worship service.


 


toddpedlar said:


> Tim said:
> 
> 
> > I have two short suggestions:
> ...


 
Oh dear, I never meant to suggest that one of those was okay in worship! Sorry about that poor communication. Certainly, neither conform to the RPW. That is unquestionable. 

You are right that it doesn't bear on the original question. I just wanted to insert that in there as something interesting to consider. We can discuss in another thread.


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## au5t1n (Jun 14, 2010)

littlepeople said:


> I think No. 1 should be sufficient.


 


Andres said:


> Man, Brandon beat me to it. What more is there than point #1? If the session isn't interested in the RPW, then no other reasons will matter.



I agree that reason 1 is the main point, but giving other reasons is not a bad thing. Even God did it in the decalogue:



> Ex. 20:2 I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
> 
> Ex. 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.



Verse 2 should be sufficient reason to honor the 5th commandment, yet God provides an additional incentive in v. 12.


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## SemperEruditio (Jun 14, 2010)

WOW! I cannot believe everyone seems to agree that the RPW has an idolatrous nature...... amazing....never thought I'd see this day come to the PB.....


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## SolaScriptura (Jun 14, 2010)

I am not a fan of patriotism in the church. Further, even outside of worship services, I'm not a fan of churches _as organizations_ celebrating or honoring veterans. After all, since when does being a state hero make one a church hero?


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## Curt (Jun 14, 2010)

I am slowly weaning our congregation from such services, including Mothers/Fathers Day, Christmas, etc. We have come a long way since I started here 6 years ago. Always, however, there is more to teach, more to learn.


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## Puritan Sailor (Jun 14, 2010)

ValiantforTruth said:


> Our beloved church, where I have become a ruling elder in the last six months, has an (in my opinion) regrettable custom of mixing nationalism into the worship service on Memorial Day, Independence Day and Veterans Day. (Patriotic readings; recognition of veterans; nationalistic music). I object to this rather strongly, and I will be bringing it up at our next session meeting. I would be grateful if anyone else can think of any cogent arguments against this practice in addition to those I list below:
> 
> 1. I will appeal to the regulative principle and the idolatrous nature of it.
> 2. I will share that I have met people who visited our church on July 4 and didn't return because they came to worship Christ, not Christ and the American State.
> ...


 
I think you have hit the two major reasons to reject the syncretism of nationalism and Christian worship. 
1) It clearly violates the regulative principle
2) It violates the international nature of the Church. 

Could we honestly ask Palestinian or Russion or Iranian Christians to honor America in the public worship of God? Would we prop up American flags and ceremonies if we worshipped in a foreign mission context? If you want to honor the country, do it through avenues the community already provides. Go to parades, thank your veterans, support monuments etc. but do not pollute the worship of God.


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## Andres (Jun 14, 2010)

I'm waiting to see if anyone here is going to defend this church...


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## Tripel (Jun 14, 2010)

Andres said:


> I'm waiting to see if anyone here is going to defend this church...


 
I'm not going to defend the church in question, but I do think it's appropriate to recognize some patriotic holidays to a certain degree. Like a prayer of thanksgiving for our country and those who have served to protect it, as well as a prayer for those currently serving in the military or in public office.


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## Andres (Jun 14, 2010)

Tripel said:


> Andres said:
> 
> 
> > I'm waiting to see if anyone here is going to defend this church...
> ...


 
Praying for our country and it's leaders is not a problem. In fact, I think it should be done if it's not already. The problem is with the things the TS mentioned in the original post.


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## Jack K (Jun 14, 2010)

Let me be contrary here. If the question is how best to persuade the church leadership to worship God alone on these days, I think bringing up the regulative priciple is NOT likely to be an effective tactic. If your church has been doing these things, it's safe to say the RPW is not on their minds, and you're likely to be met with blank stares or dismissed as a bit extreme. You may be right, but persuading others will require a different approach.

I had this very discussion in my church last July 4. The question I ended up asking was: "Do we gather to worship God or to worship the USA? Does anyone disagree that God has clearly said to worship him and him only?"

Rather than trying to explain RPW, I made it very simple: "Worship God and him only." We all agree that's right. Now make sure every element of worship even on these "patriotic" days conforms to this command.

Those are very simple terms, but they'd never thought about the July 4 service that way. They were just following tradition, which called for a patriotic service that Sunday. Progress is sometimes slow when it comes to bucking tradition, but it seemed to help significantly in my church. So I'd suggest you start with something simple like that, rather than try to change their entire way of thinking about worship in one fell swoop.


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## Willem van Oranje (Jun 14, 2010)

jambo said:


> Politics and the church just do not mix. I think all 4 are valid however point 1 is the main point.
> 
> As an observer however I think it is a deeper rooted thing in the American mind. In recent years I have often heard the president say "God bless America". Whenever I hear it I think to myself "why?" Does not God bless his people (ie the church) and not a nation


 
Kind of like, "God save the Queen?"

To his people being carried away as slaves to Babylon, God said, 

Jeremiah 29:7 (King James Version)

7And seek the peace of the city whither I have caused you to be carried away captives, and pray unto the LORD for it: for in the peace thereof shall ye have peace.

Applying this to ourselves, Christians in America ought to pray, "God bless America" often with genuine sincerity.

---------- Post added at 07:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:36 PM ----------




SolaScriptura said:


> I am not a fan of patriotism in the church. Further, even outside of worship services, I'm not a fan of churches _as organizations_ celebrating or honoring veterans. After all, since when does being a state hero make one a church hero?



I agree, although we do use a patriotic holiday as an occasion to evangelize the community. We do an outdoor preaching service on our church lawn on every 4th of July as people are lining up on the edge of the street to watch the parade. The sermon generally has a theme which relates and applies to American history in some way.


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## Peairtach (Jun 14, 2010)

I believe there is a place for thanksgiving for past deliverances and wins in war. Also to medidate on what God is saying to us as a nation (e.g. USA or Britain) in these troubles.

It can end up thanking ourselves or our veterans in a way which forgets the Lord's help in past and present conflicts.


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## jambo (Jun 15, 2010)

Willem van Oranje said:


> jambo said:
> 
> 
> > Politics and the church just do not mix. I think all 4 are valid however point 1 is the main point.
> ...


 
The national anthem was hurriedly written as the Scots under the Bonnie Prince had advanced as far south as Derby where they had conquered all in their wake. They were en route to London and the English composed the anthem which included a verse about crushing rebellious Scots. Nowadays only the first verse is sung and on very odd occasions the second. 

Whilst in its original context it was a plea to God for national deliverance and to save the King from his Jacobite enemies (who had legitimate claims to the throne) Today it is currently in use as the national anthem. One is exhorted in scripture to pray for rulers and authorities (and in the NT times that would have included the Roman Emperor) and one should do so. However why should God bless one country over another when its people and government are godless and pass laws which increasingly eat away at Christian values. 

I would ask God to bless a country by pouring out his Spirit upon that country, to pray for revival within it, to pray for the blessing on the proclamation of the word throughout the country, that its rulers might become converted, that the church would increase as the church grows and prospers then society changes.

As we think back to the 18th century revivals, certainly in this country through the preaching of Whitefield, Wesley and many others society changed and laws passed then which reflected a Christian ethos are only now being repealed or "modernised"

I think a difficulty arises where OT verse which relate to a nation (ie Israel or Judah) and apply them to nations today. The Lord's people in the OT was a nation but we see the lord's people today as the church.


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## ValiantforTruth (Jun 16, 2010)

*Thanks!*

Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful responses to my post. They helped me to better organize and formulate what I wanted to say. It went over like a lead zeppelin. Truly nationalism and the Christian faith are two rival religions.


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## Willem van Oranje (Jun 16, 2010)

jambo said:


> Willem van Oranje said:
> 
> 
> > jambo said:
> ...


 
Yet certainly, God has his people within America. If the Jews being taken captive to babylon, were supposed to pray for Babylon, I infer a lesson from that that Christians in America are supposed to pray for the peace of America, that God would bless her. Yes, through all those things you mentioned, and also through the blessings of peace and prosperity, which we certainly do not deserve as a nation. 

You asked, "However why should God bless one country over another when its people and government are godless and pass laws which increasingly eat away at Christian values." 

I know why God should bless one country. Because of the prayers of his people, that's why! May He continue to bless, according to his will. God bless America.


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## JennyG (Jun 16, 2010)

Willem van Oranje said:


> ... certainly, God has his people within America. If the Jews being taken captive to babylon, were supposed to pray for Babylon, I infer a lesson from that that Christians in America are supposed to pray for the peace of America, that God would bless her. Yes, through all those things you mentioned, and also through the blessings of peace and prosperity, which we certainly do not deserve as a nation.
> 
> You asked, "However why should God bless one country over another when its people and government are godless and pass laws which increasingly eat away at Christian values."
> 
> I know why God should bless one country. Because of the prayers of his people, that's why! May He continue to bless, according to his will. God bless America.


I'm out of thanks, so I have to do it the long way.
I think it's important to distinguish both theoretically and practically between patriotism in a bad sense and simply praying for your country, -even if it is in a service of worship. When I pray for Scotland, which I do constantly, I'm definitely not idolising it....I just ask for God's mercy and forgiveness and that he will turn back the nation that once loved his Word of truth.
I wondered if anyone thought the Church of England's old practice was wrong, of bringing the Monarch and the royal family before God in public prayer?
They were commended to God morning and evening always, until the Book of Common Prayer began to be disused in the 60's and 70's. -and many people in England at least have remarked that soon after, all their marital troubles and other problems set in

---------- Post added at 01:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:40 PM ----------

....I pray for America too - whatever your president seems to feel about it, I believe we belong together!


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## ValiantforTruth (Jun 16, 2010)

*Prayer for leaders*

I agree 100% that we ought to publicly pray for our leaders and our country in the worship service. I highly doubt that anyone would dispute that.


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## JennyG (Jun 16, 2010)

ValiantforTruth said:


> I agree 100% that we ought to publicly pray for our leaders and our country in the worship service. I highly doubt that anyone would dispute that.


still out of thanks... but thanks
I wonder, ought I to be wary about the kind of Remembrance services we have here on the nearest Sunday to November 11th, Armistice day? Truly, when I think about it, I don't believe the English are in much danger of worshipping their country - rather the opposite. The religion of PC has taken away even a proper and godly love for it. The Scots might, but their love often takes the form of passionate anti-Englishness.


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## ValiantforTruth (Jun 16, 2010)

*Rememberance*

I guess on the basis of the regulative principle, I do not see any warrant for commemorating wars in the worship of Christ's church. Perhaps it is no problem in other contexts, but no where in Scripture are we commanded to do anything other than pray for our country.


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## Scott1 (Jun 16, 2010)

ValiantforTruth said:


> Our beloved church, where I have become a ruling elder in the last six months, has an (in my opinion) regrettable custom of mixing nationalism into the worship service on Memorial Day, Independence Day and Veterans Day. (Patriotic readings; recognition of veterans; nationalistic music). I object to this rather strongly, and I will be bringing it up at our next session meeting. I would be grateful if anyone else can think of any cogent arguments against this practice in addition to those I list below:
> 
> 1. I will appeal to the regulative principle and the idolatrous nature of it.
> 2. I will share that I have met people who visited our church on July 4 and didn't return because they came to worship Christ, not Christ and the American State.
> ...



Once again, the Westminster Standards provide a concise summary of the doctrine of Scripture regarding what biblical worship is.

I've come to understand this much better, thanks to the Puritan Board.



> Chapter XXI
> Of Religious Worship, and the Sabbath Day
> 
> ....
> ...



We simply are not free to "make up" what we would, and leaders are particularly charged with making sure God is worshiped in ways He has prescribed.

As I read the summary and your comments, though I might find a little "wiggle room." Maybe we are not exactly imaging the same things, or maybe I am wrong even in this, but here are a few thoughts, carefully with what you list. I fully admit to loving my country and aspiring to be a patriot. But not equal to, above, or in any way in place of our Triune God or His Word.

Memorial Day, Fourth of July, and Veterans Day would not ordinarily be on a Lord's Day- the first is a Monday holiday bill, and the other two would mostly fall on another day of the week.

Patriotic Readings-
I think of President Washington's Prayer at Valley Forge.

Or Abraham Lincoln's in proclaiming a National Day of Thanksgiving (to God).



> By the President of the United States of America.
> 
> A Proclamation.
> 
> ...



or declaring a National Day of Prayer



> President Abraham Lincoln's Proclamation:
> 
> A Day Of National Humiliation, Fasting, and Prayer
> in the The United States Of America on April 30, 1863
> ...



Recognition of Veterans-
Could we ask Veterans to stand for a time for the covenant community to pray for them?

Or during the community prayer time lead by the Pastor to pray for them generally, or specifically?

Nationalistic Music-
I'm thinking of the Battle Hymn of the Republic.
What a biblical theme there, though it is the theme song for our Marines.



> Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
> He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
> He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
> His truth is marching on.
> ...



And on days other than the sabbath, I especially find useful this kind of prayer for, and thanksgiving for these kinds of things...
including the Veterans who have and will give their lives to give us freedom to debate unhindered things like the regulative principle.


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## Willem van Oranje (Jun 16, 2010)

We need a balance here. Patriotism simply means loyalty to ones country, and thankfulness for it. This is a Christian virtue. The church ought express patriotism toward the country in which she resides because it is a Christian virtue, like being a friendly neighbor or serving others. It is just a way to show lawful subjection to authority, as Romans 13 teaches. This must not be allowed to become idolatry, country-worshipping, or overlooking her faults without repenting for them, as sadly goes on in many churches.


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## JennyG (Jun 17, 2010)

ValiantforTruth said:


> I guess on the basis of the regulative principle, I do not see any warrant for commemorating wars in the worship of Christ's church. Perhaps it is no problem in other contexts, but no where in Scripture are we commanded to do anything other than pray for our country.


I take your point, but I don't think there could be a problem with also giving thanks for national deliverance - which was always the main purpose of the Armistice day services, rather than commemorating the war as such (not even too clear exactly what that would mean).

--edited by Admin to remove detracting material. Consider how a Nation Whose God is the Lord should be thankful for the Lord's Protection--

In remembrance of it we sing Psalm 124 

Now Israel may say, and that truly,
If that the Lord had not our cause maintained;
If that the Lord had not our right sustained,
When cruel men against us furiously
Rose up in wrath to make of us their prey;

Then certainly they had devoured us all,
...Such was their rage,as we might well esteem....
..So had they brought our soul to death quite down..

...But blest be God, who doth us safely keep!


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## William Price (Jun 18, 2010)

I am thankful that the Lord ordained me to be born in the USA. However, that is the extent of that. I am a believer of Christ and focus is on God and God alone. Anything we put with God is an idol, and is blasphemous. This includes mixing nationalism in our worship. Sorry, that's not about right... that is right!


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## jambo (Jun 18, 2010)

William Price said:


> I am thankful that the Lord ordained me to be born in the USA.



I tend to think: British by birth; Scottish by the grace of God


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## William Price (Jun 19, 2010)

jambo said:


> William Price said:
> 
> 
> > I am thankful that the Lord ordained me to be born in the USA.
> ...


 
Well... no one's perfect...


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