# Master's Degrees



## J.L. Allen (Mar 21, 2019)

Howdy folks,

My wife is thinking about eventually completing her Master's degree (she took a few classes from The Master's College right after her undergrad) some time in the future. 

She just wants straight up Bible. I would like to point her to more reformed (Presbyterian or Reformed) schools that are solid. However, there are other solid options. She would like for it to be all online but might be open to the occasional intensive on campus. We can't relocate that easy.

What say ye?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## ZackF (Mar 21, 2019)

Johnathan Lee Allen said:


> Howdy folks,
> 
> My wife is thinking about eventually completing her Master's degree (she took a few classes from The Master's College right after her undergrad) some time in the future.
> 
> ...


Why does she want a masters degree?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## J.L. Allen (Mar 21, 2019)

ZackF said:


> Why does she want a masters degree?


She has a biblical counseling undergrad and has thought about expanding her education to bolster her counseling abilities. She also works in Christian publishing and Bible knowledge has helped a lot already. 

I encourage her to continue sitting under solid teaching in an academic setting.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## B.L. (Mar 21, 2019)

Perhaps look into RTS Global or WTS Online.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## iainduguid (Mar 21, 2019)

Westminster now has an online MA in Counseling and a more general online MA in Christian Studies. We've received some designated funding that has enabled us to raise the bar on what most people think of as "online education", which I find very exciting. We continue to roll out electives for these including my Biblical Theology of Worship class, and a new class on Christianity and Culture with Bill Edgar (including interviews with Tim Keller and a tour of an art gallery). I'm very excited about the potentiality that online gives us, though we're committed to keeping our MDiv residential because of the formative nature of relationships in pastoral education.
(Full disclosure: I'm Dean of our Online Learning program).

Feel free to PM me for more information

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Scott Bushey (Mar 21, 2019)

TNARS. Free! All online. Intensive.

Reactions: Like 3 | Informative 1


----------



## Taylor (Mar 21, 2019)

Scott Bushey said:


> TNARS. Free! All online. Intensive.



You are studying with them, right? How has your experience been?


----------



## Scott Bushey (Mar 21, 2019)

Excellent. Work at your own pace. Great material.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## J.L. Allen (Mar 21, 2019)

B.L. McDonald said:


> Perhaps look into RTS Global or WTS Online.


I've looked at those as well as Calvin Theological Seminary in Michigan. Although I don't know anything about that one.

There's also a program through Covenant Seminary in St. Louis.


iainduguid said:


> Westminster now has an online MA in Counseling and a more general online MA in Christian Studies. We've received some designated funding that has enabled us to raise the bar on what most people think of as "online education", which I find very exciting. We continue to roll out electives for these including my Biblical Theology of Worship class, and a new class on Christianity and Culture with Bill Edgar (including interviews with Tim Keller and a tour of an art gallery). I'm very excited about the potentiality that online gives us, though we're committed to keeping our MDiv residential because of the formative nature of relationships in pastoral education.
> (Full disclosure: I'm Dean of our Online Learning program).
> 
> Feel free to PM me for more information


Thank you! I'll send you something here in a bit. My wife apparently remembers you/your work from when she worked at Crossway.



Scott Bushey said:


> TNARS. Free! All online. Intensive.


I'm so curious about this for even beyond this thread. Can you pm me about this?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## TheInquirer (Mar 21, 2019)

CCEF, which I think is partnering with WTS, also has some very affordable and rigorous classes that I dont believe are degree based. They might be a more affordable option for the educational benefit.

https://www.ccef.org/school/courses/

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Edward (Mar 21, 2019)

Johnathan Lee Allen said:


> Covenant Seminary in St. Louis.

Reactions: Like 1 | Amen 1 | Funny 4


----------



## J.L. Allen (Mar 21, 2019)

Edward said:


>


That little face is hilarious. I understand they’ve been less than stellar lately, but is it that pervasive? Is it possible to get a good education there?


----------



## TheInquirer (Mar 21, 2019)

Does she need an actual degree or is the primary purpose educational benefit?


----------



## Edward (Mar 21, 2019)

Johnathan Lee Allen said:


> I understand they’ve been less than stellar lately, but is it that pervasive? Is it possible to get a good education there?



If someone was well employed and living in the St. Louis area, wanting to keep working while pursuing an education, it should be on their list to consider. If one had a clean slate, it probably should be pretty close to Dubuque on the list.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Polanus1561 (Mar 21, 2019)

PRTS may be transitioning to a full online MAR. Check with them

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


----------



## J.L. Allen (Mar 21, 2019)

TheInquirer said:


> Does she need an actual degree or is the primary purpose educational benefit?


She would like an actual masters but is open to other alternative educational avenues. What did you have in mind?


Edward said:


> If someone was well employed and living in the St. Louis area, wanting to keep working while pursuing an education, it should be on their list to consider. If one had a clean slate, it probably should be pretty close to Dubuque on the list.


We would be staying where we are at here in the Chicagoland for a while. So we wouldn't be in Missouri. What's in Dubuque?


John Yap said:


> PRTS may be transitioning to a full online MAR. Check with them


That would be an ideal choice. She really liked the school when we went for a visit. They are on my list for MDiv. Mid-America Reformed is still my first choice though.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Edward (Mar 21, 2019)

Johnathan Lee Allen said:


> What's in Dubuque?



It used to have the reputation of being the most conservative (or perhaps least liberal) of the PCUSA seminaries.


----------



## J.L. Allen (Mar 21, 2019)

Edward said:


> It used to have the reputation of being the most conservative (or perhaps least liberal) of the PCUSA seminaries.


I don’t think that I, in good conscience, could recommend my wife to a PCUSA school. I don't think she’d even consider it!


----------



## ZackF (Mar 21, 2019)

Johnathan Lee Allen said:


> I don’t think that I, in good conscience, could recommend my wife to a PCUSA school. I don't think she’d even consider it!


She’s a new Presbyterian anyway. What does she know?


----------



## J.L. Allen (Mar 21, 2019)

ZackF said:


> She’s a new Presbyterian anyway. What does she know?


It doesn’t take being a Presbyterian to see a wayward and near apostate denomination.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## De Jager (Mar 21, 2019)

Be aware that Calvin Seminary leans toward the egalitarian side. For example, they will give an MDiv to a lady there. From what I understand it is fairly academic, and you will think critically, but I get the impression that you will also be exposed to some liberalism. This is just what I have heard.

I would lean toward RTS, WTS, or PRTS.

Perhaps you could send a PM to Dr. Duguid, who replied to this thread earlier.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## J.L. Allen (Mar 21, 2019)

De Jager said:


> Be aware that Calvin Seminary leans toward the egalitarian side. For example, they will give an MDiv to a lady there. From what I understand it is fairly academic, and you will think critically, but I get the impression that you will also be exposed to some liberalism. This is just what I have heard.
> 
> I would lean toward RTS, WTS, or PRTS.
> 
> Perhaps you could send a PM to Dr. Duguid, who replied to this thread earlier.


Yes, and I have done so. The RTS program has freedom in schedule. This would be most agreeable to our current juncture in life. Thank you for the heads up on Calvin Seminary.


----------



## Jake (Mar 22, 2019)

De Jager said:


> Be aware that Calvin Seminary leans toward the egalitarian side. For example, they will give an MDiv to a lady there. From what I understand it is fairly academic, and you will think critically, but I get the impression that you will also be exposed to some liberalism. This is just what I have heard.
> 
> I would lean toward RTS, WTS, or PRTS.
> 
> Perhaps you could send a PM to Dr. Duguid, who replied to this thread earlier.



Westminster "will give an MDiv to a lady" too, along with Covenant, Erskine, and others.


----------



## J.L. Allen (Mar 22, 2019)

Jake said:


> Westminster "will give an MDiv to a lady" too, along with Covenant, Erskine, and others.


She and I agree that women should not be admitted into programs intended for ordained ministry. However, does Covenant and WTS have the same issues with theological liberalism that Calvin Seminary appears to have? I haven’t heard anything like that especially about WTS.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## De Jager (Mar 22, 2019)

Jake said:


> Westminster "will give an MDiv to a lady" too, along with Covenant, Erskine, and others.



I guess I suppose that just because they get a degree doesn't mean they will be ordained. But it certainly opens up that possibility.


----------



## SolamVeritatem (Mar 22, 2019)

Johnathan Lee Allen said:


> I don’t think that I, in good conscience, could recommend my wife to a PCUSA school. I don't think she’d even consider it!



Johnathan,

Just to clarify, Covenant is not a PCUSA school. It is the official denominational seminary of the PCA, although there is an overture submitted for a vote on the floor of this year’s GA to release the seminary from denimational oversight and accompanying restrictions. 

https://www.pcaac.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Overture-2-NW-GA-CTS.pdf


----------



## Parakaleo (Mar 22, 2019)

Titus 2:1-5
But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: that the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience. The aged women likewise, that _they be_ in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; that they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, _to be_ discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

1 Timothy 5:14 
I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.


----------



## nickipicki123 (Mar 23, 2019)

Does RPTS have an online Masters in Theology?


----------



## nickipicki123 (Mar 23, 2019)

Parakaleo said:


> Titus 2:1-5
> But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: that the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience. The aged women likewise, that _they be_ in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; that they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, _to be_ discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
> 
> 1 Timothy 5:14
> I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.


What do these verses have to do with the OP's question?

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Scott Bushey (Mar 23, 2019)

Nicki,
I believe Blake was making the point that woman are generally called to be homemakers.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## J.L. Allen (Mar 23, 2019)

Parakaleo said:


> Titus 2:1-5
> But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: that the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience. The aged women likewise, that _they be_ in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; that they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, _to be_ discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
> 
> 1 Timothy 5:14
> I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.


My wife is a faithful woman to God’s Word. She joyfully submits to my headship yet never fails to remind me that this is for Christ’s sake. When I lose sight of the cross and wallow in my misery, she is ever ready with Scripture on her lips. My wife works hard and keeps our house in good order. My four children are loved and guided to Christ at every turn. She’s incredibly intelligent and often helps me see what, being clear to her and of no mystery, I struggle to understand. All this to say, I fully support any man, woman, or child receiving an education in the ways of good doctrine. She’s better able to be ready to give an answer and to teach women younger in the faith by being more knowledgeable in theology. My wife will not be a victim to shallow or heretical women’s “ministries” so prevalent in our society. She will not be the person in the pew that, like so much of evangelicalism, is never able to ingest anything more than milk (skim milk at best). I, as her husband, would not allow that to be her example to our daughters. 
@nickipicki123 


Scott Bushey said:


> Nicki,
> I believe Blake was making the point that woman are generally called to be homemakers.

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Parakaleo (Mar 23, 2019)

Dear Scott,
Quite right.

Dear Jonathan,
Your wife sounds like a godly woman and I think I would be very encouraged to spend time with both of you. I am sorry you have received such poor counsel in this thread. Paul says that our wives are to be workers at home, guiding the house and raising children (if the Lord provides). Paul tells women who would desire to learn anything, that they should ask their husbands at home (1 Corinthians 14:35). He also admonishes women to learn in silence and with all subjection (1 Timothy 2:11). I wish these instructions had featured prominently in the counsel you received here.

A wife can listen with great profit to sermons or seminary classes (at no charge) on SermonAudio, iTunes, or on podcasts throughout her day, as she has opportunity. This way, nothing is detracted from the family and she is not entering into a theological classroom/discussion forum that is designed to train men for ministry.

Dear Nicki,
Carefully consider all the instructions Paul gives for young women, for wives, and for mothers. Do these instructions (in general) allow for working wives and women in seminary courses? This is critical for us to think through, since much of American Christianity has abandoned the apostolic teaching here.

With Love in Christ,

Reactions: Sad 1


----------



## nickipicki123 (Mar 23, 2019)

Parakaleo said:


> Dear Scott,
> Quite right.
> 
> Dear Jonathan,
> ...


I think you are assuming that his wife would be neglecting her home making duties if she took seminary classes. What if this is not the case?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## nickipicki123 (Mar 23, 2019)

Scott Bushey said:


> Nicki,
> I believe Blake was making the point that woman are generally called to be homemakers.


I'm just not sure how this post conflicts with that idea. Someone can be a homemaker and pursue a master's degree.

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Edward (Mar 23, 2019)

SolamVeritatem said:


> Just to clarify, Covenant is not a PCUSA school.



Just to clarify, at that point, the discussion between us was about Dubuque, not Covenant.


----------



## Parakaleo (Mar 24, 2019)

nickipicki123 said:


> I think you are assuming that his wife would be neglecting her home making duties if she took seminary classes. What if this is not the case?



Dear Nicki,
If I am, I think it's a pretty safe assumption. I have been thinking about this a lot. You have a good pastor, right? His work in feeding and caring for the sheep is copious, I'm sure (like a wife and mother's work is copious). Would you fault him for getting a part-time job, on top of his pastoral responsibilities? If it was absolutely necessary in order for him to support his family, I would hope not! However, what if it _wasn't _absolutely necessary? What if he took on a part-time job in order to fund a hobby of his? Or, what if he took on a part-time job because it was a job he always wished he could have done, and it's personally fulfilling for him to do the work? I think you would be justified in your skepticism of the wisdom of such a decision. In other words, it would be a pretty safe assumption that the addition of this non-essential work would detract from his calling as a minister. Mothers, on the other hand, are rarely ever subjected to this kind of scrutiny when they choose to pursue degrees or careers that are outside their calling. In fact, I could say more about how mothers who choose to work or to pursue degrees are usually thought of as _more virtuous _and _contributing more_ to their families than mothers who keep the home only!

Also, I would point out that even if a wife and mother _could_ manage her home perfectly while also doing seminary coursework online, there are still issues with 1 Corinthians 14:35 and 1 Timothy 2:11. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their husbands _at home_. In public, let them learn in _silence_. I'm still waiting for someone to point out how these biblical requirements could be met by a woman taking seminary courses (even online, where interaction is usually part of the grade)? If I am the one misinterpreting these Scriptures and making them say something they are not, I would be very much in the debt of anyone who could show me a more perfect way.

With Love in Christ,

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## RamistThomist (Mar 24, 2019)

nickipicki123 said:


> I'm just not sure how this post conflicts with that idea. Someone can be a homemaker and pursue a master's degree.



I don't want to read too much into it, but if you take the Mary/Martha situation in the gospels, Mary was seeking education at Jesus' feet while Martha was "homemaking."

Reactions: Like 6


----------



## Reformed Covenanter (Mar 24, 2019)

Moore Theological College in Sydney, Australia has correspondence courses that might be worth checking out, but I do not know if they are at Master's level. Some women I know from church did them and found them useful.


----------



## J.L. Allen (Mar 24, 2019)

@Parakaleo I see your concern and your use of Scripture to validate your concern. My wife is under my headship with glad submission. Our home life is not one in which my salary could sustain my family. I'm pursuing vocational ministry as I've discerned an internal call with external affirmation. My wife would still have to work in order for our needs to be met. This is not to my family's shame but to the shame of the society we live in. She works from home and takes care of our four children. Earning further degrees will only help her in her duties of homemaker. She isn't a passive person of theological interest. She is also better educated in most ways of Scripture than I. (she has a degree and I'm working on one). I'm not intimidated by this. She sits under good teaching during worship and we often have great discussions where she learns and solidifies what has been taught. She learns from me many things as I'm well versed in ways of theological thought. 

About her desire to advance her knowledge: I take no issue with her learning when she is fulfilling her wifely duties. She isn't shaming me, our children, nor Christ by doing this. I, as her husband, encourage her to do this. If I am not taking the proper account of Scripture on the topic, then I pray that the Lord convict me of it. He has yet to. So I move forward until otherwise.

Reactions: Like 5


----------



## SolamVeritatem (Mar 24, 2019)

Edward said:


> Just to clarify, at that point, the discussion between us was about Dubuque, not Covenant.


Got it. Thanks.


----------



## RamistThomist (Mar 24, 2019)

Johnathan Lee Allen said:


> My wife would still have to work in order for our needs to be met. This is not to my family's shame but to the shame of the society we live in.



That's what a lot of people don't get. Some say, "Woman no work but stay home. No education needed." What happens when the husband dies and the wife has to take care of 8 kids with no real education? Some say, "The church will take care of her." Here's the problem with that:

a) Most of those churches are very small and can barely take care of themselves.
b) if we were LARPing in a compound in the woods this might work.

Reactions: Like 5 | Amen 1


----------



## Reformed Covenanter (Mar 24, 2019)

The virtuous woman in Proverbs 31 had some work outside the home without it undermining her work as a homemaker. Also, I feel that the raising of this subject, in this particular context, is, even if the conclusion being set forth were correct, "speaking the truth unseemly." Surely another thread could have been started to address the issue without derailing from the question raised in the OP?

Reactions: Like 7 | Amen 1


----------



## Edward (Mar 24, 2019)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Most of those churches are very small and can barely take care of themselves.



I'd take that one more step. I expect that one would find that the smaller the church, the more likely one would be to find that sort of thinking.


----------

