# Reformed views of exorcisms?



## jwright82

This may not be the right forum fo rthis but here we go. I have two questions regarding the issue of exorcism and demon posession.

1. What was the Reformer's view of this subject? Did they ever hold to this phenomenon? I know that we don't today, or at least I don't.

2. Do you think that the reason the Roman Catholic church has still has posessed people in their congregations is explained by them not being faithful to God but actually being, unkowingly?, involved in simple occultic practices? I mean occultic practices involve the human being doing something to control spiritual realities, or so they think, whether it has a christian slant or not.


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## J. Dean

For starters, do not use the movie THE EXORCIST as a model for exorcism 

Seriously though, John MacArthur has had experience with exorcisms, and mentioned it in one of his books, although offhand I can't remember which one. He did mention happily that when he walked into the room with the demon possessed person, the demon said "Not _him!_ Get him out!" which made John feel pretty good.

It's interesting to note that, although demon possession is quite real as evidenced by Scripture, that the Bible nowhere gives a formula for exorcism. Nor is the topic treated that frequently in the Old or New Testaments apart from accounts of Jesus and the apostles (Paul in particular) handling exorcisms, aside from mentioning exorcism by Jews like the seven sons of Sceva.

I do believe demon possession happens today, although we need to be careful not to have a pentecostal/charismatic-leaning obsession with it. As far as I know, the Reformers never dealt personally with it, but I have a hard time believing that they didn't think it could happen now. 

As for Rome, consider that Rome teaches an unbiblical view of salvation, so the fact that there are people among them who are demon-possessed is not that far-fetched. Plus, remember what Jesus warns about in Matthew 7, that many will come to him claiming they did miracles and cast out demons in His name, yet will still be sent to perdition. Just because one casts out a demon does not mean that one is saved. 

Funny that this subject comes up. I've often wondered how it is that demons are cast out apart from the power of God. I've heard of pagan religions casting out demons, and am curious as to how it happens.


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## Pergamum

Prayer and the Word of God without repetitive chants or rituals or talismans such as beads or holy water.


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## Citadel

J. Dean said:


> I've often wondered how it is that demons are cast out apart from the power of God. I've heard of pagan religions casting out demons, and am curious as to how it happens.



I'd pin it as a show demons put on. Just as "ghosts" and "hauntings" can be explained by demons doing their thing to confuse and deceive people, I wouldn't put it past satanic forces to make mockeries of God's power to wrongly affirm someone and their practices.


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## Constantlyreforming

Supposedly, THE EXORCISM OF EMILY ROSE was directed by a Calvinist....

just sayin'......





for some of us, we may be under the viewpoint that demons and satan are bound currently, and there are no exorcisms to take place, as demon possession is not happening during this time period.


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## Pergamum

One can believe in the general binding of satan during this inter-advental period and yet still believe in the demonization of some people.


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## jwright82

Right. I don't disagree with demon posession. I just disagree with christians being posessed by demons. I am saying that it seems pretty obvious to me that I have never heard of a Reformed, Anglican, Baptist, or Lutheran gbecoming posessed. It is weird that you mentioned that movie Ethan because that was the movie that I watched last night to get me thinking about this. I realized that this was an almost charismatic, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox problem and I got to wondering why? I believe in the occult i just believe that an honestly saved person can become posessed like poor Emily.


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## Pergamum

James, Paul was afflicted by a messenger of Satan and Job was allowed to be tormented by Satan. Jesus told Peter that Satan had asked to sift him like wheat but that later, after this, Peter would strengthen his brothers (seeming to indicate that Jesus granted this request by Satan).


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## Micah Everett

Amazon.com: Satan Cast Out: A Study in Biblical Demonology (9780851512341): Frederick S. Leahy: Books


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## jwright82

Pergamum said:


> James, Paul was afflicted by a messenger of Satan and Job was allowed to be tormented by Satan. Jesus told Peter that Satan had asked to sift him like wheat but that later, after this, Peter would strengthen his brothers (seeming to indicate that Jesus granted this request by Satan).



I think you are confusing being tempted by, tormented by, or afflicted by for being posessed in the way that people are in those movies. I know that those are movies but they have some basis in fact. That sort of posession is what I am refering to and only that narrow type of posession. 

I completly agree with you on those and I probably should have made my point clear, I thought everyone would know what I meant and that was my mistake. Can a christian be posessed like that? And if so why do we only see those sorts of posessions in very particuler non-orthodox churches? I would expect to see Presbyterians, Lutherans, and Baptists all being posessed to. But we don't and that is what my question is.


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## Pilgrim

Many (except for anti-supernaturalists) have no problem with the idea that unbelievers can be possessed. However, many would object to the idea that a real Christian can be possessed (as opposed to oppressed) based upon the idea that the Holy Spirit and a demon cannot both reside within the same person at the same time.


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## sdesocio

All good points. Satan Cast Out is very helpful. I taught at this subject during my tenure at City Reformed Presbyterian Church in Pittsburgh, and found that most people had never heard a reformed perspective on the subject.


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## Pilgrim

Micah Everett said:


> Amazon.com: Satan Cast Out: A Study in Biblical Demonology (9780851512341): Frederick S. Leahy: Books



Micah,

Thanks for posting this. I'm pretty sure I've seen this before, but this reminds me that I need to obtain it, if the Lord allows. I see David Powlison's Power Encounters: Reclaiming Spiritual Warfare also listed on Amazon. Is anyone familiar with that book? It is now out of print, but Justin Taylor posted an outline of it here. He also noted that he thinks a second edition may be coming.


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## Pergamum

jwright82 said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> James, Paul was afflicted by a messenger of Satan and Job was allowed to be tormented by Satan. Jesus told Peter that Satan had asked to sift him like wheat but that later, after this, Peter would strengthen his brothers (seeming to indicate that Jesus granted this request by Satan).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you are confusing being tempted by, tormented by, or afflicted by for being posessed in the way that people are in those movies. I know that those are movies but they have some basis in fact. That sort of posession is what I am refering to and only that narrow type of posession.
> 
> I completly agree with you on those and I probably should have made my point clear, I thought everyone would know what I meant and that was my mistake. Can a christian be posessed like that? And if so why do we only see those sorts of posessions in very particuler non-orthodox churches? I would expect to see Presbyterians, Lutherans, and Baptists all being posessed to. But we don't and that is what my question is.
Click to expand...


I don't believe there is any such possession as shown in the movies. Also, I think "possession" is a poor term, since all the unregenerate are the Devil's - I prefer "demonization."

---------- Post added at 06:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:51 PM ----------

Yes, I believe Christians may be demonized (bothered by demonic forces).


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## elnwood

Pilgrim said:


> I see David Powlison's Power Encounters: Reclaiming Spiritual Warfare also listed on Amazon. Is anyone familiar with that book?


 
I read it -- as I recall, he doesn't really address demon possession directly. He gist of the book is that being demonized is an affliction that was healed rather than being controlled and forced to sin. The book was written against those who say that when they are falling into sin, that they need to pray away the demons to go away. Powlison instead says that the usual practices of prayer, repentance and obedience are sufficient and normative.

My personal thought on demon possession: I'm with Perg. To me, the distinction between demon-possession and demon-affliction is splitting hairs, and I'm not sure if there is a categorical difference. Christian or not, demons can afflict a person, but the power of Christ can overcome it.


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## jwright82

Pergamum said:


> I don't believe there is any such possession as shown in the movies. Also, I think "possession" is a poor term, since all the unregenerate are the Devil's - I prefer "demonization."
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:51 PM ----------
> 
> Yes, I believe Christians may be demonized (bothered by demonic forces).



Fair enough.

---------- Post added at 05:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:01 PM ----------




elnwood said:


> My personal thought on demon possession: I'm with Perg. To me, the distinction between demon-possession and demon-affliction is splitting hairs, and I'm not sure if there is a categorical difference. Christian or not, demons can afflict a person, but the power of Christ can overcome it.



Like him do also not believe in the types of posessions in movies like _The Exorcism of Emily Rose_?

---------- Post added at 05:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:03 PM ----------

I believe that demon posession happens all over the world through occult type practices. This is what got me thinking about it, why as far as "christian" go these basically 3 are the only ones reporting any? If I am right than in essence to open yourself up to such ideas is asking for trouble and their rituals are not christain at all but occultic with a twist. That is why we, In my humble opinion, don't have this type of problem, no occultic rituals going on.


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## MW

The subject is complicated by a number of factors. There are true and false views of demons. The false view is itself demonic. Giving credence to the false view therefore promotes the very demonism which one is seeking to expel.

Then there is the true understanding of demons. That is the one in which Jesus is proclaimed Lord of all things. The very confession of His Lordship expels demonism.

Another factor pertains to human behaviour. (1.) Human behaviour is rational-moral, and a man is always accountable for his thoughts and intentions. Even irrationalism is sinful man's rational choice. It is a rational choice to create a covert for sinful thoughts and irrationally explain away human behaviour in terms of demonic activity. (2.) Confrontation with the word of God exposes these thoughts and intentions to the judgment of God. No hiding place is afforded to the so-called demon possessed. The man is laid bare before God and he realises his sin is his own and he must confess it for what it is before God. (3.) All behaviour is learned, including religious behaviour. All bad behaviour can be unlearned, including bad religious behaviour.


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## AThornquist

My understanding is that there is demonic indwelling and likewise an affliction that is outward (in other words, possession and oppression). I do not believe that Christians can be indwelt as unbelievers because we are filled with the spirit of truth, but we may be afflicted. In either case, prayer and the Word of God are the only weapons we have and the only weapons we need.


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## dudley

AThornquist said:


> My understanding is that there is demonic indwelling and likewise an affliction that is outward (in other words, possession and oppression). I do not believe that Christians can be indwelt as unbelievers because we are filled with the spirit of truth, but we may be afflicted. In either case, prayer and the Word of God are the only weapons we have and the only weapons we need.



Amen Andrew! And Amen to my other brothers on this post.....I do believe demon possession happens today only because Rome still practices the perversion of casting out demons of those who Rome believes are possessed. The paradox is Roman Catholicism is all about control and possessing the individual in slavery to the institutional church of Rome which I and many believe is herself a harlot of Satan. Satan possesses , Christ sets us free. 

True Christians can not be indwelt by Satan as unbelievers because we are filled with the spirit of truth, that is why I left Roman Catholicism and became a Reformed Protestant. I knew Rome was wrong and taught a distorted Gospel. We who are Reformed Protestants are truly Christ’s elect and set free from the bondage of our sinful nature by our being set righteous by our affirmation of faith in Christ alone who set us free by his sacrifice for all who are in Him by faith alone which is given by the grace of God. God would not allow those he saves to be taken by Satan through possession. This again is Roman catholic nonsense that we should reject. I have said over and over “I renounce Roman Catholicism and her pope‘ and all her false lies and false teachings and distortions of the true Gospel. The fact that there are Roman Catholics who might be possessed I do not find far fetched. Roman Catholicism is a deceit of the devil himself to begin with.

I also agree with brother J. Dean “As for Rome, consider that Rome teaches an unbiblical view of salvation, so the fact that there are people among them who are demon-possessed is not that far-fetched. Plus, remember what Jesus warns about in Matthew 7, that many will come to him claiming they did miracles and cast out demons in His name, yet will still be sent to perdition. Just because one casts out a demon does not mean that one is saved.” 

I also agree with brother Pergamun “Prayer and the Word of God without repetitive chants or rituals or talismans such as beads or holy water.” The repetition of Hail Mary’s and Holy water and all her rituals is also an abomination. I have discarded my rosary beads and the holy water bottle and her so called holy water......they make Christianity a foul set of superstitions….. All of Roman Catholicism is an abomination and a blasphemy to the truth of Christ message of salvation. We need to renounce it as did the Reformers. I do renounce my former Roman Catholicism and her pope completely. I proclaim I am saved by my affirmation of faith as a Presbyterian and a Reformed Protestant. We are the faith of the apostles and the church that Christ intended and founded! We are Protestants because we protest heresy and proclaim the truth!


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## Leslie

The concept of possession is a creation, so I'm told of Josephus. In the NT there are two terms that are translated as possession: one is to have a demon and the other is to be demonized. They seem to be used interchangably. Christians can be demonized, according to the experience of myself, working in the Third World, and others also. To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing in the scripture to contradict this observation.


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## jwright82

armourbearer said:


> The subject is complicated by a number of factors. There are true and false views of demons. The false view is itself demonic. Giving credence to the false view therefore promotes the very demonism which one is seeking to expel.
> 
> Then there is the true understanding of demons. That is the one in which Jesus is proclaimed Lord of all things. The very confession of His Lordship expels demonism.
> 
> Another factor pertains to human behaviour. (1.) Human behaviour is rational-moral, and a man is always accountable for his thoughts and intentions. Even irrationalism is sinful man's rational choice. It is a rational choice to create a covert for sinful thoughts and irrationally explain away human behaviour in terms of demonic activity. (2.) Confrontation with the word of God exposes these thoughts and intentions to the judgment of God. No hiding place is afforded to the so-called demon possessed. The man is laid bare before God and he realises his sin is his own and he must confess it for what it is before God. (3.) All behaviour is learned, including religious behaviour. All bad behaviour can be unlearned, including bad religious behaviour.



Wow I like your take on this subject.


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## steadfast7

Sam Storms offers the most contemporary Reformed perspective but from a Calvinist Charismatic background. All my experiences with demonized people was with long time Christians. So Im convinced that Christians can be oppressed by them. Question though, if the charismatics do exorcisms according to a biblical pattern, on what basis would we condemn their practice?


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## BobVigneault

Here is one of the best treatments of Spiritual Warfare and demonic interference that I've heard and would recommend listening to Dr. Breshear's course.


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## jwright82

steadfast7 said:


> Sam Storms offers the most contemporary Reformed perspective but from a Calvinist Charismatic background. All my experiences with demonized people was with long time Christians. So Im convinced that Christians can be oppressed by them. Question though, if the charismatics do exorcisms according to a biblical pattern, on what basis would we condemn their practice?



I don't know what the pattern is that they use. What is this pattern? And why don't we have the need for excorcisms in other denominations?


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## MW

jwright82 said:


> And why don't we have the need for excorcisms in other denominations?



Because the people aren't taught to need them. They are taught to be transformed by the renewing of the mind.


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## steadfast7

jwright82 said:


> steadfast7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sam Storms offers the most contemporary Reformed perspective but from a Calvinist Charismatic background. All my experiences with demonized people was with long time Christians. So Im convinced that Christians can be oppressed by them. Question though, if the charismatics do exorcisms according to a biblical pattern, on what basis would we condemn their practice?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what the pattern is that they use. What is this pattern? And why don't we have the need for excorcisms in other denominations?
Click to expand...

 My aunt who manifested a demonic spirit a few years ago during a home prayer meeting was born and raised in a Presbyterian home, so it's an unfounded generalization that they don't happen in other denominations other than the charismatic. My take is that perhaps many people are demonized in all cultures and religious backgrounds, but perhaps the culture will influence how that plays out. In the enlightenment-influenced west, demons may "manifest" through addictions or psychological issues; in Indonesia it's much more dramatic. That's just my opinion. In my experience with charismatic demonic "deliverance" sessions, I find that their practice is much like what we see in the Gospels and Acts - ie. the use of firm voice, speaking to the spirit, taking authority, casting it out in Jesus' name, etc.


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## jwright82

steadfast7 said:


> My aunt who manifested a demonic spirit a few years ago during a home prayer meeting was born and raised in a Presbyterian home, so it's an unfounded generalization that they don't happen in other denominations other than the charismatic. My take is that perhaps many people are demonized in all cultures and religious backgrounds, but perhaps the culture will influence how that plays out. In the enlightenment-influenced west, demons may "manifest" through addictions or psychological issues; in Indonesia it's much more dramatic. That's just my opinion. In my experience with charismatic demonic "deliverance" sessions, I find that their practice is much like what we see in the Gospels and Acts - ie. the use of firm voice, speaking to the spirit, taking authority, casting it out in Jesus' name, etc.



That makes sense but it still doesn't seem right. I mean it is still a sociological fact that happens much more in only certian areas or in certian faiths. Since it doesn't happen on the same level in the same faiths tells me something about the whole thing, at least raises questions in my mind to it all.


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## elnwood

Just to add to the conversation, exorcism was practiced as far back as the early church fathers.

"For we call Him Helper and Redeemer, the power of whose name even the demons do fear; and at this day, when they are exorcised in the name of Jesus Christ, crucified under Pontius Pilate, governor of Judæa, they are overcome. And thus it is manifest to all, that His Father has given Him so great power, by virtue of which demons are subdued to His name, and to the dispensation of His suffering."
Justin Martyr, _Dialogue with Trypho_, Chapter 30


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## steadfast7

I resonate with your skepticism, James. Charismatic circles in Indonesia is where I've seen the most pronounced and dramatic forms of demonic possession and there's less of it the more west you go. One thing I believe is fairly certain to me: there are very few good reasons why someone would want to pretend that they are possessed when they are not. Some "deliverance sessions" are grueling and long, and often very uncomfortable for both the person possessed and the people praying. I also saw my aunt speaking English while demon oppressed, which I hadn't seen before or thought she could. These are the indications to me that it's a real spiritual manifestation and not a cry for attention.


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## sdesocio

Id encourage the reading of Jack Miller's heart of a servant leader. He has a letter specifically speaking about a focus on Demonism. I'd also warn folks that many on this thread seem to be speaking with a lot of certainty. It's important to know the limits of our enemy but not underestimate his limits.


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## Pilgrim

armourbearer said:


> jwright82 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And why don't we have the need for excorcisms in other denominations?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because the people aren't taught to need them. They are taught to be transformed by the renewing of the mind.
Click to expand...


It's been a while since I've looked into this issue, so I can make no definitive statement about it. (Actually, interest in this topic that was piqued by listening to some Malachi Martin interviews eventually led to my conversion a year or two later once I came under evangelical influence.) 

That being said, what Rev. Winzer notes here does make a big difference. I can attest to it from personal experience. It seems that one's belief and emphasis on this issue will to at least some extent impact one's view of the Christian life in general. In many if not most cases it has a significant impact. 

For a number of years I was under the teaching of an independent "Calvinistic" or "sovereign grace" (not SGM) man who had previously been engaged in itinerant preaching/evangelism for several decades and who had extensive experience with deliverance ministry. (He was not the usual kind of 20th Century Southern evangelist and was influenced by Tozer, Ravenhill, as well as older sovereign grace men.) During that time he had considerable influence within his circles and gained some notice among Calvinistic Baptists generally. My connection with this ministry was early on in my Christian walk, when I was convinced of TULIP but knew of no other baptistic ministry in the area that affirmed it. (There were issues which at the time kept me from considering local Presbyterian. churches, one of which is actually openly charismatic.) This brother published a book on demonology in which he argues that a Christian can be posessed or indwelt (I can't remember the exact terminology) by a demon(s) as well as the Holy Spirit at the same time. I don't know of any exorcisms or deliverance ministry that he engaged in at that later stage of his ministry. But that's not the kind of thing that was made public knowledge regardless, at least not by this ministry. 

While much of what was taught there was helpful and true, after a few years I picked up on an attitude toward sanctification or growth in grace that basically amounted to "Let go and let God." If somebody had some kind of persistent sin problem, then demons must be the cause. The approach apparently was that you had to come to them with such a problem, they weren't going to force it. While they aren't perfectionists, the idea that we sin daily in thought, word and deed was openly disdained and dismissed as being a defeatist view. There was an antipathy toward blaming anything on the flesh. It was very reminiscent of how psychotropic drugs are often sold. "If there's a pill available that can help you, why blame it on sin?" Why blame the flesh when it's demonic, etc. 

Once I realized this deficiency, as well discovering that the prevailing view of scripture among at least some of the leadership was arguably neo-orthodox and mystical and statements were made that undermined the verbal plenary inspiration of Scripture, I left. In retrospect, the latter fits well with a book on deliverance that is based on personal experiences that cannot be proved from Scripture, if at best many of the experiences recounted therein do not outright contradict Scripture.


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## CalvinandHodges

Hi:

I do not believe that a Christian can be possessed by a Deamon: "Greater is He that is in you, then he that is in the world." 

As far as Leahy's book is concerned - it is good as far as it goes - but I was kind of surprised by his denial that Satan has a kingdom.

If a person is possessed, then the person needs to become a Christian. Preaching the gospel to such a person will give the Holy Spirit the opportunity to save the soul. The Deamon will try to distract you and/or the person he is possessing. However, we are not to address ourselves to the Deamon in this situation, but to the person who needs to be saved.

Here is a very good book on the Calvinist understanding of presenting the Gospel:

Amazon.com: What Is the Gospel? (9Marks) eBook: Greg Gilbert, D. A. Carson: Kindle Store

Blessings,

Rob


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## steadfast7

I don't know if it's explicitly scriptural or necessarily inferred that a Christian cannot be demonized. It also presumptively places a label of saved or unsaved on a person, which is not conventional for presbyterians, right?


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## MW

elnwood said:


> Just to add to the conversation, exorcism was practiced as far back as the early church fathers.
> 
> "For we call Him Helper and Redeemer, the power of whose name even the demons do fear; and at this day, when they are exorcised in the name of Jesus Christ, crucified under Pontius Pilate, governor of Judæa, they are overcome. And thus it is manifest to all, that His Father has given Him so great power, by virtue of which demons are subdued to His name, and to the dispensation of His suffering."
> Justin Martyr, _Dialogue with Trypho_, Chapter 30


 
Of course, "demon" is here being used in its classical signification as an inferior deity which was propitiated as part of the patron-client system; not a controlling spirit which, some allege, has the power to possess and take over the faculties of an individual.


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## jwright82

steadfast7 said:


> I resonate with your skepticism, James. Charismatic circles in Indonesia is where I've seen the most pronounced and dramatic forms of demonic possession and there's less of it the more west you go. One thing I believe is fairly certain to me: there are very few good reasons why someone would want to pretend that they are possessed when they are not. Some "deliverance sessions" are grueling and long, and often very uncomfortable for both the person possessed and the people praying. I also saw my aunt speaking English while demon oppressed, which I hadn't seen before or thought she could. These are the indications to me that it's a real spiritual manifestation and not a cry for attention.



Good points. I am less skeptical than curious. I don't want to fall into the trap of naturalism and say that it is just psychological. So if we don't go that route and we say that something demonic is going on, how then do explain this sociological phenomenon? Thats what I can't figure out.




steadfast7 said:


> I don't know if it's explicitly scriptural or necessarily inferred that a Christian cannot be demonized. It also presumptively places a label of saved or unsaved on a person, which is not conventional for presbyterians, right?





I didn't think of it that way.




Pilgrim said:


> That being said, what Rev. Winzer notes here does make a big difference. I can attest to it from personal experience. It seems that one's belief and emphasis on this issue will to at least some extent impact one's view of the Christian life in general. In many if not most cases it has a significant impact.



That may be an explanation.

---------- Post added at 07:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:42 AM ----------




armourbearer said:


> Because the people aren't taught to need them. They are taught to be transformed by the renewing of the mind.



So in these other denominations and/or churches their being taught to need them opens them up to it?


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## J. Dean

It can be overdone, too. Don Matzat, a Lutheran Pastor and former host of the Lutheran radio show Issues, etc., talked about going through a charissmatic phase a la Derek Prince. He talked about people-Christians mind you-possessed by the spirit of anger or alcoholism or whatever else. Finally, one day, he was performing an "exorcism" with an angry man claiming to be demon-possessed, when Don stopped, looked at the kid, and said "You're faking it. Knock it off!!" 

He was right: the man was just putting on a show.

It needs to be remembered, again, that the Bible doesn't spend a lot of time on this topic, nor is there a specific formula for exorcism, or a command that we are supposed to be "demon hunting" per se, so we need to treat it with care as to how much attention we give it. Frank Peretti has already done some damage in this area with his fiction. We don't need any more.


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## nicnap

I take a slightly different approach than some -- though, it does not originate with me. I believe that people (lost people) can now only be (for the most part) voluntarily 'possessed' (there may be some lost men possessed without willful assent, but it is far less than in the days of the incarnation). I believe that most demon possession occurred at the time of the incarnation, it was Satan's attempt to mimic the incarnation. Think of it this way; were there demonic possessions in the OT? When is the last seen possession in the NT? It was clearly lessening after the resurrection and ascension, and there is not much mention of it after a few chapters into acts. Just my  .


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## cajunhillbilly53

I have never seen an exorcism but do remember a long time ago meeting someone who I really believe was under demonic influence. I was trying to witness to him about the marvelous grace of our Savior and he said he could not hear me because "they" were too loud. There was no one near by. I believe that demons were trying to keep him from the truth. I prayed then and there for God to graciously let this man hear the truth and he said "they" were quiet now. I then shared the Gospel with him and he said he would think about it. I hope "they" did not come back, but he was not ready to make the step of faith yet. I believe that God quieted these demons. Demons are real and they do influence people.


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## steadfast7

J. Dean said:


> It needs to be remembered, again, that the Bible doesn't spend a lot of time on this topic, nor is there a specific formula for exorcism, or a command that we are supposed to be "demon hunting" per se, so we need to treat it with care as to how much attention we give it. Frank Peretti has already done some damage in this area with his fiction. We don't need any more.


 What do you reckon is the damage that Peretti has done? Regardless of whether we want to believe it, there is something of a phenomenon at work in certain circles which looks a lot like demon possession and many have been afflicted, and also helped, by those who care to engage this realm.


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## Constantlyreforming

does anyone else believe that demons and satan are completely bound and unable to intervene and deceive, like I believe?


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## BobVigneault

The scriptures say that a demon may enter, indwell, be cast out, they may exert control in varying degrees but none of these require us to concede that a demon may possess (take ownership) of an individual. I am not sure if a demon may exert control over a believer but I do know that a demon may use a loved one to hurt a believer. A demon may oppress and influence a believer but I don't think they may enter and indwell a believer. 

I have started referring to the problem as demonic interference. I have found that believers and non-believers can both be interfered with - if the person is a believer then we must get rid of the deception they are under by applying the truth of scripture. A believer can also believe a lie and that lie is a foothold. We must give the believer a foothold from which he or she can resist. In the case of a non-believer we respond with evangelism, a proclamation of the Gospel.

A demon may do nothing except through the permission of God.

There is no scripture that says demon possession ever existed. The KJV and a few English versions prior did translate 'daimonizomai' as 'possessed' but that is just not a good translation and the context quickly alerts us that ownership should not be understood as a factor in a person being interfered with.

As I said before, a person can be entered and indwelt and therefore a demon may be cast out, a demon may influence and even control physiological response. None of this requires a person to be 'possessed' and the idea of possession goes against the sovereignty of God and authority of Jesus Christ.

The sovereignty, the goodness and the authority of the Godhead is THE target of Satan and his demons. The last thing we want to do is play into that scheme. When I encounter demonic activity I give it the 'my brother-in-law' test. I may have witnessed something terrifying and destructive but I have to ask, apart from an amazing presentation (illusion is all about 'the presentation') have I seen anything that my brother-in-law couldn't have done?

Demons can act invisibly and they know an awful lot, even more than David Copperfield, about how to appear powerful. They are not as powerful as folks think and the movies of the '70s did us a great disservice and boosted the demons leverage exponentially.

For thousands of years demons have been considered great pests to the church and enemies to the church but still merely agents of wrath or as Luther called Satan - "God's ape". They are used to discipline and even punish rebelliousness.

The demons power will seem great in an environment where superstition is high and the potential for fear is great. This is why demons seem to be more active in animistic cultures. They are not more powerful there but they have much more ignorance and superstition to leverage.

In the case of Satan's Kingdom, it's not a kingdom but dominion is certainly an appropriate word. Those who practice habitual sin, those who reject the person and work of Christ, those who give in to fits of anger, live in the realm of Satan's influence, they have given the devil a foothold. He doesn't need to own them, they are playing into his scheme.


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## jwright82

BobVigneault said:


> The scriptures say that a demon may enter, indwell, be cast out, they may exert control in varying degrees but none of these require us to concede that a demon may possess (take ownership) of an individual. I am not sure if a demon may exert control over a believer but I do know that a demon may use a loved one to hurt a believer. A demon may oppress and influence a believer but I don't think they may enter and indwell a believer.
> 
> I have started referring to the problem as demonic interference. I have found that believers and non-believers can both be interfered with - if the person is a believer then we must get rid of the deception they are under by applying the truth of scripture. A believer can also believe a lie and that lie is a foothold. We must give the believer a foothold from which he or she can resist. In the case of a non-believer we respond with evangelism, a proclamation of the Gospel.
> 
> A demon may do nothing except through the permission of God.
> 
> There is no scripture that says demon possession ever existed. The KJV and a few English versions prior did translate 'daimonizomai' as 'possessed' but that is just not a good translation and the context quickly alerts us that ownership should not be understood as a factor in a person being interfered with.
> 
> As I said before, a person can be entered and indwelt and therefore a demon may be cast out, a demon may influence and even control physiological response. None of this requires a person to be 'possessed' and the idea of possession goes against the sovereignty of God and authority of Jesus Christ.
> 
> The sovereignty, the goodness and the authority of the Godhead is THE target of Satan and his demons. The last thing we want to do is play into that scheme. When I encounter demonic activity I give it the 'my brother-in-law' test. I may have witnessed something terrifying and destructive but I have to ask, apart from an amazing presentation (illusion is all about 'the presentation') have I seen anything that my brother-in-law couldn't have done?
> 
> Demons can act invisibly and they know an awful lot, even more than David Copperfield, about how to appear powerful. They are not as powerful as folks think and the movies of the '70s did us a great disservice and boosted the demons leverage exponentially.
> 
> For thousands of years demons have been considered great pests to the church and enemies to the church but still merely agents of wrath or as Luther called Satan - "God's ape". They are used to discipline and even punish rebelliousness.
> 
> The demons power will seem great in an environment where superstition is high and the potential for fear is great. This is why demons seem to be more active in animistic cultures. They are not more powerful there but they have much more ignorance and superstition to leverage.
> 
> In the case of Satan's Kingdom, it's not a kingdom but dominion is certainly an appropriate word. Those who practice habitual sin, those who reject the person and work of Christ, those who give in to fits of anger, live in the realm of Satan's influence, they have given the devil a foothold. He doesn't need to own them, they are playing into his scheme.



Those are excellent points!


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## MW

jwright82 said:


> So in these other denominations and/or churches their being taught to need them opens them up to it?



Yes; I won't descend into anecdotal evidence; it is a well known fact that communities create the mindset with which to speak and act in the community.


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## jwright82

armourbearer said:


> Yes; I won't descend into anecdotal evidence; it is a well known fact that communities create the mindset with which to speak and act in the community.



Not to get philosophical here, just thinking off the top of my head, but it is kind of like speach-act theory. Wow that would be a thesis for graduate work _Demon Posession and Speach-Act Theory_. I think in the end you are right, but I still hold that the explination could also involve a willfull opening up of oneself and community to occult like practices. But I guess this would require much more research.


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## MW

jwright82 said:


> Not to get philosophical here, just thinking off the top of my head, but it is kind of like speach-act theory. Wow that would be a thesis for graduate work _Demon Posession and Speach-Act Theory_. I think in the end you are right, but I still hold that the explination could also involve a willfull opening up of oneself and community to occult like practices. But I guess this would require much more research.


 
Something worth looking into there. If by "occult" is simply meant "secret things" and "deep things of Satan," they are only "as they speak." It is what they call them. We who believe in Jesus know that it is mere deception.


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## jwright82

armourbearer said:


> jwright82 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not to get philosophical here, just thinking off the top of my head, but it is kind of like speach-act theory. Wow that would be a thesis for graduate work _Demon Posession and Speach-Act Theory_. I think in the end you are right, but I still hold that the explination could also involve a willfull opening up of oneself and community to occult like practices. But I guess this would require much more research.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Something worth looking into there. If by "occult" is simply meant "secret things" and "deep things of Satan," they are only "as they speak." It is what they call them. We who believe in Jesus know that it is mere deception.
Click to expand...


Agreed!


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