# current trends in women in ministry



## Scott (Sep 26, 2005)

Can anyone point me to examples of trends on women in ministry? I am looking for persons, events, etc. I am going to be teaching an adult Sunday School on 1 Timothy 2 and want to give examples of what is happening today.


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## wsw201 (Sep 26, 2005)

Have you looked at the "unordained deaconess" issue?


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## Scott (Sep 26, 2005)

No. What is that about?

Here is an issue I am familiar with that is popping up in various places, including our own nearby PCPC. Some churches are letting women teach adult mixed-sex Sunday Schools. To stave off the criticism about letting a woman teach orhave authority over a man, they claim that the woman teacher is exercising her teaching role under the authority of elders who are also in the class.


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## LadyFlynt (Sep 26, 2005)

No, if she is teaching them and they are sitting in her class as part of the class it is the appearance of them being UNDER her. Not a good situation.


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## Arch2k (Sep 26, 2005)




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## Puritanhead (Sep 26, 2005)

**Puritanhead sits idle in amusement**


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## Scott (Sep 26, 2005)

Agreed. I was just highlighting how these issues are pushing the envelope. People are trying to be creative to get around the prohibition, kind of like tax lawyers.


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## AdamM (Sep 26, 2005)

> Agreed. I was just highlighting how these issues are pushing the envelope. People are trying to be creative to get around the prohibition, kind of like tax lawyers.



Scott, I think you put your finger on a real problem. I personally know some conservative men who are convinced that both men and women can serve as deacons, because they view the office as one of service only, no authority, but they do not pursue the "unordained" path, because they recognise the BCO's clear intent is to restrict the office to men only.


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## Scott (Sep 26, 2005)

Ryan: What does this statement in your signature block mean: "member Body of Christ?" I hope it does not mean that you are not part of a local congregation. 

The Bible's teaching, as summarized in the Belgic Confession:




> [align=center]*Article 28: The Obligations of Church Members*
> [/align]
> We believe that since this holy assembly and congregation is the gathering of those who are saved and there is no salvation apart from it, no one ought to withdraw from it, content to be by himself, regardless of his status or condition.
> 
> ...


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## wsw201 (Sep 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> No. What is that about?
> 
> Here is an issue I am familiar with that is popping up in various places, including our own nearby PCPC. Some churches are letting women teach adult mixed-sex Sunday Schools. To stave off the criticism about letting a woman teach orhave authority over a man, they claim that the woman teacher is exercising her teaching role under the authority of elders who are also in the class.



There was a post about it awhile back, I think from Tom Albrecht. The post mentioned that there were women Deacons in Tim Keller's church in NY. From what I remember, the session that was considering having women as deacons checked with Roy Taylor and he gave them the big "OK" for women being Deacons as long as they were not "ordained". I also understand that an OPC church in CA. has "unordained" Deaconesses.


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## LadyFlynt (Sep 26, 2005)

If someone is seeking a loophole to God's Word then there is a serious problem...namely rebellion.


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## puritangirl (Sep 26, 2005)

I've heard the argument that before the fall, the garden was "egalitarian", and that after the fall, God's curse on women was that her desire shall be for "her husband to rule over her." (Of course I believe this is the opposite of the true meaning.) The post-mil position has been known to lead people who accept this position to an egalitarian mindset, because if our goal is to build God's kingdom here on earth, we need to act like our pre-fall parents - which they claim were egalitarian. I wish I knew more details but I have only begun to study this position. I think its just another manuevered "loophole", and yet it seems very accepted in much of the PCUSA and CRC denominations, as far as I know.


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## LadyFlynt (Sep 26, 2005)

I would point out the mere fact that Adam was created first and that Adam got to name the animals. If it was meant to be egalitarian then why didn't God just created them both together. If it was merely to show that one needed the other...yet they want to be egalitarian...then God would have created them at the same time in separate parts of the garden then brought them together. Their concept of "fairness" falls apart when order is mentioned in scripture from the get-go.


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## puritangirl (Sep 26, 2005)

I agree with you. I listened to a sermon by a PCUSA pastor in town on this subject and he had some sort of explanation as to why Adam was the one who named the animals, but I don't remember what it was now. Whatever it was, it was weak. It started frustrating me so I turned it off...its frustrating to hear a man as intelligent as this pastor go to such great lengths to pervert a plain and simple truth of Scripture that, from Genesis chapter 1, is stated so clearly.


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## SRoper (Sep 26, 2005)

My congregation, Redeemer in Winston-Salem, has "deaconesses" that I understand to be "unordained." However, no distinction is made between male and female deacons as far as I can tell. Women are also allowed to lead responsive reading of Scripture in corporate worship. The senior pastor's position is that women can do anything an unordained man can do. I obviously don't agree. I see it as primarily an issue of obedience to the BCO.


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## Scott (Sep 27, 2005)

Scott Roper: Your pastor has an additional problem. Lay people (men or women) are not supposed to read in the congregation. 

Larger Catechism Q. 156. Is the Word of God to be read by all?
A. *Although all are not to be permitted to read the Word publicly to the congregation*,[1001] yet all sorts of people are bound to read it apart by themselves,[1002] and with their families:[1003] to which end, the holy scriptures are to be translated out of the original into vulgar languages.[1004] 


1001: [1001] Deuteronomy 31:9, 11-13. And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel.... When all Israel is come to appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing. Gather the people together, men, and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the LORD your God, and observe to do all the words of this law: And that their children, which have not known any thing, may hear, and learn to fear the LORD your God, as long as ye live in the land whither ye go over Jordan to possess it. Nehemiah 8:2-3. And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month. And he read therein before the street that was before the water gate from the morning until midday, before the men and the women, and those that could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive unto the book of the law. Nehemiah 9:3-5. And they stood up in their place, and read in the book of the law of the LORD their God one fourth part of the day; and another fourth part they confessed, and worshipped the LORD their God. Then stood up upon the stairs, of the Levites, Jeshua, and Bani, etc. and cried with a loud voice unto the LORD their God. Then the Levites, Jeshua, and Kadmiel, etc. said, Stand up and bless the LORD your God for ever and ever: and blessed be thy glorious name, which is exalted above all blessing and praise.

[Edited on 9-27-2005 by Scott]


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## SRoper (Oct 2, 2005)

This is sort of an update to my previous post. I go to Sunday school after first service, and today it was taught by a woman. I quietly slipped out.


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## LadyFlynt (Oct 2, 2005)

Quietly? you mean you didn't ask where the teacher was?


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## bond-servant (Oct 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> To stave off the criticism about letting a woman teach orhave authority over a man, they claim that the woman teacher is exercising her teaching role under the authority of elders who are also in the class.



Obviously "explaining away" God's law to do what they want, is "easiest" or is politically correct. ARGH. 

Hmmm.. smacks of "No, Daddy, I *didn't* steal the gum from the drug store, I asked my little toddler brother to HAND it to me...."

<sigh>


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## SRoper (Oct 2, 2005)

"Quietly? you mean you didn't ask where the teacher was?"

No, I think it is more proper to discuss this with the elders. Plus, I just officially became a member of the congregation in the prior service, so I didn't really feel like stirring things up in first thrity minutes. Fortunately, the pastor while praying for the new members mentioned that we bring different perspectives and can offer correction.


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## LadyFlynt (Oct 2, 2005)

I was merely being ornery when I said that. I would expect you to do as you stated and not make a scene.


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## Scott (Oct 3, 2005)

Scott Roper: Right approach. 

Lady Flynt: I appreciate the humor.


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## Anton Bruckner (Oct 3, 2005)

> _Originally posted by puritangirl_
> I agree with you. I listened to a sermon by a PCUSA pastor in town on this subject and he had some sort of explanation as to why Adam was the one who named the animals, but I don't remember what it was now. Whatever it was, it was weak. It started frustrating me so I turned it off...its frustrating to hear a man as intelligent as this pastor go to such great lengths to pervert a plain and simple truth of Scripture that, from Genesis chapter 1, is stated so clearly.


you thought that was weak, you should hear Norman Geiesler trying to refute Predestination, as well as try to say that Calvin didn't mean what he said.

There is a growing trend in Christianity to maintain a status quo in relation to the accepted norms and mores of a society for the church.


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