# Reformed Forum: Union with Christ



## FenderPriest (Nov 1, 2011)

Have any of you guys listened to Reformed Forum's episode last week, Union With Christ? It was very helpful. I'm going to need to listen through again to catch all the steps of discussion and distinctions. They bring up the essential difference between Lutheran and Reformed perspectives on Union with Christ, the priority of Union with Christ in relation to justification, sanctification, and regeneration. They also discuss some of the differences between Westminster East and West (i.e. Horton and Gaffin). Any thoughts on the episode and issues raised? I have to confess my own infancy in understanding this issue, so my thoughts are very, very minimal.


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian (Nov 1, 2011)

Listening to it right now. Dr. Tipton does an excellent job of explaining the issues. A must listen.


----------



## yoyoceramic (Nov 1, 2011)

I listened to the episode last night, and I thought it was very good. I must confess that I have pitted Justification over and above Sanctification, so hearing this discussion is very helpful. I thought Dr. Tipton's analogy was helpful. When asked by Camden how "Justification can be the main hinge upon which religion turns", Dr. Tipton points out that the hinge is not free-floating in air, but is affixed to the door frame which rests upon a sure foundation. So too, our union with Jesus is the foundation upon which we receive the benefit of justification and sanctification (both definite and progressive, which is an important distinction).

Rather than thinking of our justification as the cause of our sanctification, we must look to Jesus Christ and our union with him as the source of our justification and sanctifcation. That said, there are some benefits we receive from justification we do not receive from sanctification. Lane mentioned that in no way could I look to my sanctification for a right standing before God, but rather I may look to my justification to reassure my conscience I am right before God. If I am thinking correctly, both justification and sanctification flow in parallel from our union with Christ rather than Sanctification as an effect of our Justification only - ie one following the other. This is why the phrase "Our sanctification is just getting used to our justification" misses the mark. It is Christ and our identity with his death, burial, and resurrection which truly and really sanctified and continues to sanctifies us.


----------



## FenderPriest (Nov 1, 2011)

I was thinking of a lot of the issues going on about sanctification lately that are outlined in this post at Reformed Forum: Sanctification and Eschatology.


----------



## PuritanCovenanter (Nov 1, 2011)

Two of the best hours I have spent listening to a podcast in awhile. I highly recommend it. HIGHLY RECOMMEND IT.


----------



## Hamalas (Nov 1, 2011)

Yes it was excellent. I would also recommend Dr. Tipton's lectures on this topic (which can be found on the WTS Itunes page I believe.) He walks a lot of the same territory but much more slowly.


----------



## FenderPriest (Nov 1, 2011)

Hamalas said:


> Yes it was excellent. I would also recommend Dr. Tipton's lectures on this topic (which can be found on the WTS Itunes page I believe.) He walks a lot of the same territory but much more slowly.


Do you mean the 'Calvin and Union 1,2, & 3'? Thanks for the pointer to it!


----------



## seajayrice (Nov 2, 2011)

*Thanks for the tip!*

Excellent podcast and a refreshing listen. Thank God for the faithful proclamation of the Word and the marvel of the grace we enjoy by union with the Lord Jesus, the full-orbed Jesus Christ of the scriptures!


----------



## jogri17 (Nov 2, 2011)

It was very enjoyable. Reformed Forum has proven to be the best and most stable Reformed podcast on the web.


----------



## Hamalas (Nov 2, 2011)

FenderPriest said:


> Hamalas said:
> 
> 
> > Yes it was excellent. I would also recommend Dr. Tipton's lectures on this topic (which can be found on the WTS Itunes page I believe.) He walks a lot of the same territory but much more slowly.
> ...



That's the one!


----------



## Jack K (Nov 3, 2011)

I listened to the episode yesterday and am still sorting it out in my mind today, which is evidence that it was a good talk. No doubt it did an excellent job of explaining the issues and celebrating the breadth of all Christ has done for us. I think it may have been not as fair as it might have been, in spots, in how it represented the Westminster West position. But overall, it was a beneficial and informative episode.


----------



## FenderPriest (Nov 3, 2011)

I posted this in the comments on the episode. I found this essay in doing a bit of research on the topic, and thought it was interesting in that it addressed some of the ways Calvin's position is presented by Dr. Tipton: The New Perspective on Calvin: Responding to Recent Calvin Interpretations by Thomas L. Wenger.


----------



## ChristianTrader (Nov 19, 2011)

Here is a link to a response article defending Tipton (and others) concerning their view of Calvin http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/51/51-3/JETS 51-3 543-558 Johnson.pdf

Also here is a link to lectures from a recent Conference on the Union with Christ Alive with Christ: Saving Union with Christ (Monergism MP3)


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian (Nov 19, 2011)

I know what my poor children are going to have to listen to tomorrow on the long drive to Grandpa's house.


----------



## Beoga (Nov 20, 2011)

I listened to it today and thought it was excellent! Thanks for the recommendation!


----------



## seajayrice (Nov 20, 2011)

*This should be the thread of the month*



ChristianTrader said:


> Here is a link to a response article defending Tipton (and others) concerning their view of Calvin http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/51/51-3/JETS 51-3 543-558 Johnson.pdf
> 
> Also here is a link to lectures from a recent Conference on the Union with Christ Alive with Christ: Saving Union with Christ (Monergism MP3)



Great article, thanks Hermonta. And thank you Jacob; this thread contains some of the most interesting and edifying discussion I have encountered since joining the PB.


----------



## PuritanCovenanter (Nov 20, 2011)

Very interesting read by Marcus Johnson. The comments were very illuminating and clarifying in my estimation as to the charges laid at the feet of those who supposedly have some New Perspective on Calvin. It looks like Wegner might have gotten some things out of wack in my estimation.



> The first of Wenger’s arguments stemming from this passage is largely semantic. He proposes that it is significant that Calvin twice described sanctification as “secondary,” suggesting that Calvin thus understood justification as the “primary” of the “double graces.” This argument runs into the following problems: (1) it is not clear that Calvin intended to assign a relative _worth _to sanctification when he described it as “second” in order, as if justification were first in order of soteriological value and sanctification a rung lower in value; (2) Calvin did not describe justification and sanctification here as “double graces,” but as a “double _grace _(_duplex gratia_).” This is important to note because Calvin understood that the _duplex gratia _is received only by “_partaking of him_” in whom the benefits reside. When Christ is “grasped and possessed by us in faith,” we receive the _duplex gratia _of justification and sanctification; it is a two-fold grace, not two graces.
> 
> 
> … Calvin’s
> ...


----------



## Unoriginalname (Nov 20, 2011)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> I know what my poor children are going to have to listen to tomorrow on the long drive to Grandpa's house.



I wish my dad was that cool


----------



## Michael Doyle (Nov 20, 2011)

I listened during a long drive home and then again on the long drive back to work. I thought it was excellent!


----------

