# Not I but sin



## Eoghan (May 5, 2015)

[BIBLE]Romans 7:17[/BIBLE]
[BIBLE]Romans 7:20[/BIBLE]
I was listening to a lecture/talk by Ed Walsh from sermon audio and he described a couple who cannot take any women into their home. The problem is that Dad lives with them and as his dementia (?) has progressed his self-control seems to have slipped. I was intrigued by this and it occurred to me that this is in some ways what Romans seems to be hinting at. No matter how tightly we control ourselves we are sitting on a powder-keg and only our resurrection body will be fully compliant. This does not of course overlook the way we allow sin in through the eyes, ears and thoughts but it does explain an underlying predisposition to sin and rebellion.

To what extent is this correct and how would you qualify such an understanding to distinguish this Biblical view (?) from the Greek idea of the spirit being pure and the body flawed?


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## Eoghan (May 6, 2015)

I was was expecting some lively discussion or to be told in no uncertain terms that I was wrong. Perhaps I have outdone myself in giving a clear and concise explanation? Yet as I ponder other texts Paul does seem to encourage a vigilance and monitoring of the flesh. There is a saying re: computers, "rubbish in, rubbish out". To some extent I can see this operative in our lives, we are in a sense at war with our underlying sinful dispositions. This is probably behind Paul's "...wretched man that I am..." in Romans 7. 

If this is a correct understanding of our condition it does to some extent explain why alcohol can release those underlying dispositions. Yet, for most of us there would be an element of volition in inebriation would there not. I am reminded of the distinction between the decretive and permissive wills of God. The distinction is useful in enabling understanding or insight but it must be conceded that God really has one will when all is said and done (beyond our comprehension for the most part). 

Are we now more accountable for the extent to which we yield to sin, those small incremental concessions which give rise to full blown sin? Is it possible to discuss the two as separate? Given the body's craving for drink, is intellectual assent to drinking not severely compromised? 

While I can through discipline exercise some control over myself it will require the consummation of my salvation (resurrection body) to truly set me free.


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## earl40 (May 6, 2015)

Eoghan said:


> Are we now more accountable for the extent to which we yield to sin, those small incremental concessions which give rise to full blown sin? Is it possible to discuss the two as separate? Given the body's craving for drink, is intellectual assent to drinking not severely compromised?



May I ask what you mean by "incremental concessions" as if they are not sin? This is an area that is usually concerned with concupiscience, which is a strong desire, which may be or not sinful. The body may indeed crave drinking alcohol and how it makes the heart grow fonder which is allowed via scripture, BUT to crave alcohol to become stumbling drunk is sinful. Take Our Lord Jesus for example. He turned water into wine to celebrate the wedding feast and I shall assume He partook to the point of "making His heart grow fonder" but He did not desire to to the point of stumbling drunkenness because He did not posses the nature we have so far as an internal desire to sin.


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## Eoghan (May 7, 2015)

There is a saying that Satan created nothing but only perverts. God created wine, Satan twisted that to become alcoholism...

As for the distinction between the underlying predisposition and the yielding to that predisposition... ...I think that is what I was chewing over about and perhaps speculating vainly. The observation does however explain why the minister with declining mental faculties would act "out of character". David and Bathsheeba would be a good example of some dalliance with the notion of adultery before the act itself. 

As regards concupiscence it is intriguing that Paul finds himself convicted by the commandment that forbids coveting. To modern man who seeks to aspire to a better job, a better standard of living, coveting is almost second nature (No, these are not wrong in and of themselves). This being election time in the UK I ponder how much of our political manifestos are appeals to avarice and personal advantage.


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## clark thompson (May 7, 2015)

Sadly we as Christians still have sin and will continue to have the fight with our sin until we are no longer in our fleshly bodies.


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## earl40 (May 7, 2015)

Eoghan said:


> As regards concupiscence it is intriguing that Paul finds himself convicted by the commandment that forbids coveting. To modern man who seeks to aspire to a better job, a better standard of living, coveting is almost second nature (No, these are not wrong in and of themselves). This being election time in the UK I ponder how much of our political manifestos are appeals to avarice and personal advantage.



Coveting or having any desire toward anything other than ones wife (or God in the ultimate sense) is wrong "in of themselves" and we all posses that nature which only those that trust in The Lord can make any headway toward perfection. Of course that sinful nature is covered by Jesus and this is why I like to say in responce to the saying we are clothed with the rightneousness of Jesus. "Yes indeed we are clothed with such and when God looks at us He sees His Son BUT God knows what is under what He sees (sinful man)".


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## Andrew P.C. (May 7, 2015)

Eoghan said:


> from the Greek idea of the spirit being pure and the body flawed?[/COLOR]




I would like to make a distinction. The Greeks in and of themselves did not believe that the body was bad, per se. This would tend to be more of the gnostic notion that the body is bad (material world in general) and the spiritual things are good.

One thing to keep in mind is that sin is not theoretical, it's practical. We physically demonstrate the condition of the heart everyday. Even as we are converted unto Christ, we still sin. Yet, we are being sanctified everyday. This includes, not only the mind and heart, but the body as well.


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