# Ted Haggard's Disturbing Update



## AThornquist (Jul 24, 2010)

He has made public statements and is on record about his new direction. Did you realize that he "over-repented?"  Even though Haggard's scandal is quite different than Caner's, this is another shining example of a lack of accountability and our fellow religious name-bearers' loving of a preacher more than the purity of God's supposed messenger. 

Haggard's in a New Pulpit


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## py3ak (Jul 24, 2010)

That is disgusting, disturbing, and disheartening.


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## ChristianTrader (Jul 24, 2010)

The thing that I found most interesting about the article was the claim that people could actually be "real" around him, because they knew that he had actually stumbled and fell, while in his previous time as pastor, no one would try to do such. I think such could probably be said concerning others that an air of perfection causes people to hide what they should not hide.

CT


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## Berean (Jul 24, 2010)

> "If I was arrogant, I would have gotten a job in a farm bureau co-op somewhere in Iowa, changed my name and never been heard from again," he said.



Talk about insulting. At least that would have been honest work.


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## Ivan (Jul 24, 2010)

How does one "over-repent"?


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## Herald (Jul 24, 2010)

Very, very sad.


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## AThornquist (Jul 24, 2010)

ChristianTrader said:


> The thing that I found most interesting about the article was the claim that people could actually be "real" around him, because they knew that he had actually stumbled and fell, while in his previous time as pastor, no one would try to do such. I think such could probably be said concerning others that an air of perfection causes people to hide what they should not hide.
> 
> CT



_Definitely._ That is one reason I love Paul Washer; I have heard many times of his inability, his sinful heart, his feebleness, and so on. It makes me much more able to identify with him in my need to rely upon God. The same is true for my quite unknown pastor.


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## ChristianTrader (Jul 24, 2010)

Ivan said:


> How does one "over-repent"?


 
I think he is implying that he apologized for certain things that were not his fault.

CT


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## Ivan (Jul 24, 2010)

ChristianTrader said:


> Ivan said:
> 
> 
> > How does one "over-repent"?
> ...


 
Like the massage that went awry? Please!


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## kvanlaan (Jul 24, 2010)

> "Tiger Woods needs to golf. Michael Vick needs to be playing football," Mr. Haggard said as his new congregation joined him and Gayle in their backyard for a post-worship picnic. Little kids, shrieking with joy, splashed in the pool. Men grilled burgers. Women set out chicken salad.
> 
> "Ted Haggard," Mr. Haggard said, "needs to be leading a church."



Wow. Preaching is just another sport, apparently. Or any other 'pastime' that you have an interest in... The call of God is just an option on the preaching vehicle that some take out and some don't.


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## Curt (Jul 24, 2010)

But guys, go gently with him. He has matured. After all, he said "hell" in a sermon. That's makes him much better. </sarcasm>


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## Ivan (Jul 24, 2010)

kvanlaan said:


> > The call of God is just an option on the preaching vehicle that some take out and some don't.
> 
> 
> 
> Akin to grilling burgers.


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## Rich Koster (Jul 24, 2010)

The NAR always protects their golden boys and throws the little people under the bus.


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## CNJ (Jul 24, 2010)

I blogged about celebrity apologies on the Millennial Dreams blog at the end of May. 



> In 2007 the senate investigated the "Prosperity Gospel Ministers" such as Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, and Randy and Paula White. I appreciate a former TV evangelist, Jim Bakker, who did admit: "The more I studied the Bible, however, I had to admit that the prosperity message did not line up with the tenor of Scripture. My heart was crushed to think that I led so many people astray." Baker served time for his decisions, but not for the adultery that was reportedly set up by Jimmy Swaggart whose own apology is clearly biblical for his immorality and use of meth: "I have sinned against you, my Lord, and I would ask that your precious blood would wash and cleanse every stain until it is in the seas of God's forgiveness." I am not a fan of Bakker or Swaggart, but do appreciate the wording of their confessions.



If we were not surprised that Bakker returned to a TV ministry, we cannot be surprised that Swaggart returned. But how can you *overapologize*?


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## jwithnell (Jul 24, 2010)

This is an example of why I think it is dangerous for a church, or a pastor within a church, to view itself as independent of oversight. A healthy appreciation of man's depravity and as believers, our common temptations, pushes one to a form of church government that requires a biblical accountability.


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## LawrenceU (Jul 24, 2010)

Sad. Very sad.


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## Iconoclast (Jul 24, 2010)

ChristianTrader said:


> The thing that I found most interesting about the article was the claim that people could actually be "real" around him, because they knew that he had actually stumbled and fell, while in his previous time as pastor, no one would try to do such. I think such could probably be said concerning others that an air of perfection causes people to hide what they should not hide.
> 
> CT


 
Martin Lloyd Jones in his commentary on second Peter 2.. points out that false teachers attract false converts because the share the same lusts and ungodliness, so they are kindred spirits. He said it much better than I just did, but i do not have the volume before me right now.


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## ClayPot (Jul 24, 2010)

It is very sad that Christians(?) would put this man back in the pulpit and follow him. I'm sure he's an engaging speaker, but that does not mean meets the criteria of a pastor set forth in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1. It is also sad that this hasn't been denounced by evangelicals, or if it has, that it hasn't been publicized well.


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## Ivan (Jul 24, 2010)

jpfrench81 said:


> It is very sad that Christians(?) would put this man back in the pulpit and follow him. I'm sure he's an engaging speaker, but that does not mean meets the criteria of a pastor set forth in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1. It is also sad that this hasn't been denounced by evangelicals, or if it has, that it hasn't been publicized well.


 
If you read the article there questions and concerns from another of parties. His former church, among others, says he is not ready to go back into the ministry. I don't think any Christians put him back in the pulpit. Until recently the church was meeting in his barn. I believe he merely said something like this: "I'm starting a church, come on down!"


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## ericfromcowtown (Jul 24, 2010)

It's very sad. The story could have turned out so differently - an arrogant televangelist emptied of himself through an exposed sin to perhaps then be humbly used by God in some way. After all, Moses needed to be emptied of himself after slaying the Egyptian before he was ready to be used by God. We need to pray for Haggard, that he would truly repent of his sins and turn to Christ, as unfortunately nothing in this article suggests that he has.


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## Scott1 (Jul 24, 2010)

Only having minimal information about this situation, and it may be subjective, one observation would be,

There is usually no quick, easy way back for one who was a Christian leader who has fallen in scandalous public sin. While God can do anything, putting someone right back in their public platform as leader in Christ's Church just doesn't happen quickly or easily (sometimes not at all). Sin is expensive.

To whom much is given, much is required- the consequences and aggravation are much greater in God's economy.

It's also odd for someone professing Christ, being a visible leader in Christ's body, to make appeal for restoration to nonbelievers, and to demand restoration from believers. Especially for one presumed qualified to teach and lead God's people.


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## LawrenceU (Jul 24, 2010)

The very fact that he sought to be released from the oversight of the restorative/accountability overseers is telling. Even if what he says is true about his sin not being as deep as he initially said he made an agreement and now has broken it.

'He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not.'


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## py3ak (Jul 25, 2010)

ChristianTrader said:


> The thing that I found most interesting about the article was the claim that people could actually be "real" around him, because they knew that he had actually stumbled and fell, while in his previous time as pastor, no one would try to do such. I think such could probably be said concerning others that an air of perfection causes people to hide what they should not hide.
> 
> CT


 
Yes, I thought that was interesting as well. You wonder what he was doing as a pastor before, if it's only now that people have started to talk to him about their struggles. Evidently there was not a lot of pastoral counsel! But there are several ways of looking at this.
One is that within evangelicalism, self-righteousness shows itself in an undue regard for mere appearances. While there is a polemical aspect to that (because when you're prominent and make statements against sin it angers people who go looking for anything they can to show you up as being a hypocrite), it is still unfortunate; not only for the discredit it brings when someone's righteousness is shown up as a vain show, but also because it obscures the Gospel: the good news about God justifying the ungodly.
Another point is that people are reluctant to tell you something if they know they will be swiftly condemned. That point is harder, but at least on a personal level it ought to be possible to convince people that you can disapprove of and love them at the same time. 
So on both those points, it is natural that people would be more willing to talk honestly to him now.
But in addition to those good motivations for greater openness, there is a bad one: that people understand he is no position to condemn, and so take for granted that he will not rebuke, either, no matter what they are doing. Or, if he should, that they can easily ignore it considering the source.

I wonder if the overarching structure of the narrative won't turn out to be, "Mainstream evangelical megachurch pastor reinvents himself as somewhat emergent authenticity guru."


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## Jack K (Jul 25, 2010)

These situations can be tough because we do believe that the qualifications for leadership in the church aren't necessarily just about being a good person, but also about being a repentant and resting-in-Christ person. So moral failure doesn't automatically disqualify one from leadership if, at the end of the day, we can come back and say the repentant leader is now "above reproach" (1 Timothy 3).

In this case, however, the article portrays a would-be leader who seems no longer very interested in repentance given that he's shaken off the spiritual oversight designed to restore him. His church has publicly said he's not fit for leadership at this point. Yet he starts his own church and people come. He claims this is right because it feels right to him: "Tiger Woods needs to golf. Michael Vick needs to be playing football. Ted Haggard needs to be leading a church."

No matter how he may spin it, that's not repentance. 

If anything, I think the lesson we learn here is that the popular notion that anybody may start a church if they feel like it, without any need for affirmation from the larger body of Christ, is seriously flawed.


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## Curt (Jul 25, 2010)

It has not escaped my notice that in a few weeks this false prophet has a larger church than the one in which I minister, in which the Gospel is preached. I don't despair at this realization, just note it. It's the way of the world.


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## Willem van Oranje (Jul 25, 2010)

py3ak said:


> ChristianTrader said:
> 
> 
> > The thing that I found most interesting about the article was the claim that people could actually be "real" around him, because they knew that he had actually stumbled and fell, while in his previous time as pastor, no one would try to do such. I think such could probably be said concerning others that an air of perfection causes people to hide what they should not hide.
> ...


 
As one who had once experienced receiving "pastoral counsel" from Pastor Ted, I can say that his counsel was personable, empathetic, generally wise according to biblical principles, but he never gave me the impression or admitted that he was himself a sinner. It was sorta like, "Stop doing the wrong thing, and do the right thing instead." Or in my specific case, it was, "You're doing great. I can't figure out why your mom is so worried about. Just keep it up." 

The fact that he did not portray himself as a sinner was not just Ted's problem. It is a common symptom of Arminian charismatics, who think that Christians are not supposed to sin, _at least not really bad sins_, because you can lose your salvation that way. Without a healthy understanding of God's sovereign work in sanctification, they are left wearing masks.


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## LeeD (Jul 25, 2010)

St James Church - very, very sad.


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## Willem van Oranje (Jul 25, 2010)

One more sad thing about this situation is that Pastor Ted used to always say to us while preaching that if anything ever happened between Gayle and him, he would step down from all official ministry or authority in the church and just be a prayerful "servant in the temple" for the rest of his days. It appears his sentiments have changed (unless that hypothetical scenario was meant to be strictly about divorce.)


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## sdesocio (Jul 26, 2010)

I need to say Im pretty disturbed by this kind of open attack. All sin is worthy of death, and so T Haggard, and every single person thats every posted on the puritan board are worthy of death. There is no hope outside of the grace that brings peace with God. 

Sure saying hell - doesn't make you cool. Sure this shows that denominations and networks with stronger accountability are incredibly important. But I do not think that it is appropriate to post in this regard.

I'm going to request that this thread be take down.


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## beej6 (Jul 26, 2010)

With respect to Mr. DeSocio, I think Mr. Haggard's ministry is fair game for criticism. From an ecclesiological point of view, sadly, his case seems typical - rather than remaining under submission to his previous eldership, he was released from their care so then "free" to do what he wished.

It also seems disingenuous to me that, upon further research, that Mr. Haggard stated had no intention of starting a church as recently as mid-May when he "incorporated" St. James for the accounting purposes, when he had previously held prayer meetings at his home in November... though he did say he wanted to do some type of ministry.
Ted Haggard to Pastor New Church in Colorado | Christianpost.com

We should be careful however not to judge the man from a distance and, as so true of us who are both sinners and justified, pray that he has truly repented from his sins, and will not lead his current congregation astray.


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## py3ak (Jul 26, 2010)

Carl Trueman has commented on the matter.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jul 26, 2010)

sdesocio said:


> I need to say Im pretty disturbed by this kind of open attack. All sin is worthy of death, and so T Haggard, and every single person thats every posted on the puritan board are worthy of death. There is no hope outside of the grace that brings peace with God.
> 
> Sure saying hell - doesn't make you cool. Sure this shows that denominations and networks with stronger accountability are incredibly important. But I do not think that it is appropriate to post in this regard.
> 
> I'm going to request that this thread be take down.


 
Mr. DeSocio,

If you report a specific post, we will consider deleting a post as inappropriate.

Nobody has denied their own condemnation under sin apart from Christ in this thread and your sweeping generalization and judgment of motive is unwarranted.

The topic of this thread is not the issue of whether or not Ted Haggard can repent or is any better or worse than any of us, if he has repented. The issue concerns his statement that he over-repented. There is nothing inappropriate about discussing the propriety of that statement.


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## RandPhoenix (Jul 26, 2010)

While I find this thing to be repugnant, and while I find his website to be more a monument to himself and a chance to whine about his "unfair treatment" over his sin, is this really any different from Todd Bentley's return to "ministry" after his adultery, divorce, and remarriage?


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## SemperEruditio (Jul 26, 2010)

St. James website said:


> I may not be qualified to be a pastor, but I know I am qualified to serve others in need. Ted Haggard



He knows it and yet he moves forward?


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## Jack K (Jul 26, 2010)

sdesocio said:


> I need to say Im pretty disturbed by this kind of open attack. All sin is worthy of death, and so T Haggard, and every single person thats every posted on the puritan board are worthy of death. There is no hope outside of the grace that brings peace with God.
> 
> Sure saying hell - doesn't make you cool. Sure this shows that denominations and networks with stronger accountability are incredibly important. But I do not think that it is appropriate to post in this regard.
> 
> I'm going to request that this thread be take down.



I for one want to thank you for being concerned that we avoid attacks, and for reminding us to consider our own sinfulness as we discuss the behavior of others.

In this case, though, I think the already-public nature of the situation and Mr. Haggard's prominent reputation make his actions important for the larger church to discuss and even critique. We need to do so as charitably as possible, but as forcefully as necessary for the good of the church.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 26, 2010)

Just an old blog I posted that might apply. 



> Just a quote from J. I. Packer that will be relevant for generations.
> 
> 
> Leadership
> ...


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## Ivan (Jul 27, 2010)

Good word, Randy.


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## alhembd (Jul 27, 2010)

Scott1 said:


> Only having minimal information about this situation, and it may be subjective, one observation would be,
> 
> There is usually no quick, easy way back for one who was a Christian leader who has fallen in scandalous public sin. While God can do anything, putting someone right back in their public platform as leader in Christ's Church just doesn't happen quickly or easily (sometimes not at all). Sin is expensive.
> 
> ...



Of course, an additional problem is that this was one merely a fall into one scandalous sin. To the contrary, the man had been engaging in this wicked activity for years, from what I read. He was involved with the male prostitute over a period of at least a year, as I recall, but also admitted other vile liaisons prior to that. So this wasn't a mere one-time fall; this was a long-term pattern of reprobate behaviour.


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