# Are cults (like JW) more "dangerous" than other groups when you dialogue/witness?



## Tim (Apr 17, 2009)

I recently had another encounter with two Jehovah's Witnesses here in Cape Town. As with last time, I was blessed by God to be able to deliver a fairly complete gospel (may the Lord use my humble attempt for His glory). I was also able to take control of the conversation and take it where I thought it had to go (thanks to God for this too). 

But I perceived that I viewed this conversation as being much more "dangerous" than if I were talking to an atheist or Roman Catholic person, for example. 

Can anyone identify with this? It's as if once you know they are JW's (or some other cultic group), you are more on guard and want to make sure you meet everything they say with the proper objection or defense (or offense). With other people, my _feeling_ is that things are "easier", in that I don't have to be as vigilant. 

I know that JW's are generally more learned about their own (false) system than most Roman Catholics, for example. Perhaps this is the reason for my thinking the way I do?

-----Added 4/17/2009 at 07:37:53 EST-----

Or, am I giving them too much credit?


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## Michael Doyle (Apr 17, 2009)

Tim, thanks for the post. I struggle with this similarly. I haven`t had many encounters but am concernes deeply by my biblical accuracy. With that being said...
I believe we are giving them far too much credit. Some things are best left to the assertion of scripture and the conviction of the Holy Spirit. They willfully blind themselves to the truth. I am persuaded by their reach to persuade others of this heresy but also must trust in the power of God`s Word.

Do we need to refute all they say? In many of my outreach`s I have resorted to just the plain speak of the Word. We used to go door to door in the harder parts of Milwaukee and the JW`s were hitting the same doors. I would just give them the law and gospel and tell them of their need of repentance and faith. They all admitted not wanting to go to hell. The testimony of scripture given plainly outweighed the manipulations of the other side.

God will bring His people to Himself and we must just faithfully preach His Word. That is not to say apologetics do not play a vital role, but in response to the OP, once again I believe we give too much credit.


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## Michael Doyle (Apr 17, 2009)

Again, it must be established if those whom we are "reasoning" with are by point of contact, the "old man" or "new man." We cannot expect the illumination of scripture within the eyes of those whom it has not been given. There can be serious doubts as to the regeneration of most, if not all JW`s due to their denial of the Trinity. That being said, God can and will save whom He wills.


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## Rich Koster (Apr 18, 2009)

Tim said:


> I recently had another encounter with two Jehovah's Witnesses here in Cape Town. As with last time, I was blessed by God to be able to deliver a fairly complete gospel (may the Lord use my humble attempt for His glory). I was also able to take control of the conversation and take it where I thought it had to go (thanks to God for this too).
> 
> But I perceived that I viewed this conversation as being much more "dangerous" than if I were talking to an atheist or Roman Catholic person, for example.
> 
> ...



They are trained to manipulate the conversation. I only briefly go roundabout with them and then tell them to leave the premises because they are false prophets.


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## BJClark (Apr 18, 2009)

I had some LDS show up at my house the other day and the first thing out of their mouth was something to the effect "Do you Believe Jesus Christ came and spoke to the Prophet Joesph Smith" 

I couldn't help it..I laughed in their faces and said "No He didn't, Joesph Smith was a liar and false prophet who tried to make his own way to Heaven, thank you for stopping by please go now" and shut the door in their faces...my daughter was looking out the window she said they stood there for a few minutes stunned, and then walked away..

She turned to me and said "Mom, I can't believe you just laughed in their faces"

The sad thing is, I know they walked away thinking they have been persecuted for their faith..all the while headed straight to hell, lest God save their soul.

I've also recently had some JW's come to the door, bringing their little children with them handing out their watchtower magazines--I just wanted to ask them what number of the 144,000 are you? but I just said thank you to the little girl, took her magazine shut the door, then threw it in the garbage with out ever asking..



The Jehovah's Witness Version of the 144,000



> Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that only 144,000 people will go to heaven.




Consider for example Acts Chapter 2: 40-47 NIV



> With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day. They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.



Consider Acts 5: 12-16 NIV



> The apostles performed many miraculous signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon's Colonnade. No one else dared join them, even though they were highly regarded by the people. Nevertheless, more and more men and women believed in the Lord and were added to their number. As a result, people brought the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and mats so that at least Peter's shadow might fall on some of them as he passed by. Crowds gathered also from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing their sick and those tormented by evil spirits, and all of them were healed.





> The World Christian Encyclopedia estimates that by A. D. 100 there were 1 million Christians in the Roman Empire out of a population of 181 million. Even if their estimates are off by a whopping 80%, which is highly unlikely the number of first century Christians would still exceed 144,000. The logical question that comes to mind is "why would God deny the vast majority of first century Christians heavenly honors and save it for those who joined the Watchtower Society between the years 1879 and 1935?". Stranger still is their belief that for 18 centuries God was supposedly very picky and skipped over hundreds of thousands of Christians for heavenly honors and then in 1879 when the Watchtower came along God suddenly made it first come first served and He choose virtually everyone who joined the Watchtower between the years 1879 and 1935.



So if there were 1 Million Christians during that time...where do they fit in the 144,000, they claim will be the only one's in Heaven???

Or will they be among one of these two groups??



> All faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses not chosen to be among the 144,000 elite that go to heaven (those joining the Watchtower after 1935) will spend eternity on earth. All other people on the earth will be destroyed at war of Armageddon here on earth. This would also include any Jehovah's Witnesses who has been disfellowshipped or is otherwise unfaithful to the Watchtower and has not worked his or her way back into the good graces of the Watchtower by the time of Armageddon.




so those who have opportunity to witness more effectively to them...read up on what they believe and form questions on those beliefs like asking them what number they are of the 144,000 given what Scripture teaches..then ask them to read up on what Scripture says and then ask to meet with them again another time..to discuss it in more depth..(but be sure you spend time in prayer and studying their beliefs along side the scriptures--as I'm sure they will be asking their 'teachers' to explain such things to them, so that they can defend their own beliefs)


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## Glenn Ferrell (Apr 18, 2009)

Two JW’s came to my door yesterday. I asked the front man (the less experienced trainee) if Jesus was the eternal Son of God. He turned to the other, who then took over. Each scripture he offered, I showed the distortion of their version of the Bible and where their understanding was contradicted in the text. He asked my religion, to which I simply said, “Christian,” not mentioning I was a minister. I also offered to sit down with them to discuss these matters at a better time. This, they declined. One suggested I read an article in their magazine. I told him I would if he’d give me his name and a phone number I could call to discuss it. He did. I’ve read it; am prepared to refute it with scripture; and will call him this week. He also said I could come with them as they went door to door. I told them I didn’t think they’d appreciate my standing behind them saying, “Don’t listen to these lies. Here’s the true gospel of salvation.” Perhaps I should have grabbed my coat and gone.

JW's are more dangerous than the LDS and many other false religions, because their view of Jesus is closer to the truth. Their view is essentially the same as Unitarians, Muslims or Jews, except they add a pre incarnation existence.

Don’t get stuck on the 144,000, existence of hell, soul sleep, or whether to celebrate Christmas. Stay on the authority of scripture, the eternal essential deity of Jesus and the gospel of salvation by God’s grace. Be prepared to state the truth in a few concise words backed up by appropriate scripture. Get a phone number to follow up with one or more if possible. Speak so the less experienced one may hear; he is more likely to have his doubts. Pray during (to yourself) and after the encounter. They are not as prepared as you might think. They only learn and practice a few select topics with proof texts. Learn what these are and have biblical answers to counter what they say. This is an opportunity to share the gospel. Ask God to show you how to take advantage of it. And, expect them to come at the most inopportune time. That’s Satan’s way. But, it doesn’t take long to plant a seed of the gospel. Be humble; don’t expect to show how smart you are; leave the results to God.


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## Gloria (Apr 18, 2009)

Tim said:


> I recently had another encounter with two Jehovah's Witnesses here in Cape Town. As with last time, I was blessed by God to be able to deliver a fairly complete gospel (may the Lord use my humble attempt for His glory). I was also able to take control of the conversation and take it where I thought it had to go (thanks to God for this too).
> 
> But I perceived that I viewed this conversation as being much more "dangerous" than if I were talking to an atheist or Roman Catholic person, for example.
> 
> ...



I understand your feeling on this one. I have a friend, full of the love of God blessed with an unwavering zeal for God's word and evangelism. He KNOWS scripture very well. He and some other brothers recently went to a Jehovah Witness event (open to the public) to witness. A few days later my husband mentioned our friend was in spiritual warfare asking himself "What if they are right?" JWs ARE usually more able to defend their view, even though it's false. Additionally, he went to an event where the hosts were no doubt expecting people like him to attend. We warned him to share the gospel and nothing more but he chose to argue particular scripture with them on their ground. 

Either way, I understand what you mean.

-----Added 4/18/2009 at 06:24:53 EST-----



Glenn Ferrell said:


> Two JW’s came to my door yesterday. I asked the front man (the less experienced trainee) if Jesus was the eternal Son of God. He turned to the other, who then took over. Each scripture he offered, I showed the distortion of their version of the Bible and where their understanding was contradicted in the text. He asked my religion, to which I simply said, “Christian,” not mentioning I was a minister. I also offered to sit down with them to discuss these matters at a better time. This, they declined. One suggested I read an article in their magazine. I told him I would if he’d give me his name and a phone number I could call to discuss it. He did. I’ve read it; am prepared to refute it with scripture; and will call him this week. He also said I could come with them as they went door to door. I told them I didn’t think they’d appreciate my standing behind them saying, “Don’t listen to these lies. Here’s the true gospel of salvation.” Perhaps I should have grabbed my coat and gone.
> 
> JW's are more dangerous than the LDS and many other false religions, because their view of Jesus is closer to the truth.  Their view is essentially the same as Unitarians, Muslims or Jews, except they add a pre incarnation existence.
> 
> Don’t get stuck on the 144,000, existence of hell, soul sleep, or whether to celebrate Christmas. Stay on the authority of scripture, the eternal essential deity of Jesus and the gospel of salvation by God’s grace. Be prepared to state the truth in a few concise words backed up by appropriate scripture. Get a phone number to follow up with one or more if possible. Speak so the less experienced one may hear; he is more likely to have his doubts. Pray during (to yourself) and after the encounter. They are not as prepared as you might think. They only learn and practice a few select topics with proof texts. Learn what these are and have biblical answers to counter what they say. This is an opportunity to share the gospel. Ask God to show you how to take advantage of it. And, expect them to come at the most inopportune time. That’s Satan’s way. But, it doesn’t take long to plant a seed of the gospel. Be humble; don’t expect to show how smart you are; leave the results to God.



Great points.


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## Idelette (Apr 19, 2009)

Thank you Pastor Ferrell, for that very useful post, I couldn't agree with you more! I do think groups such as JW's and Mormons are incredibly dangerous....they are well taught in their doctrines and they are taught how to witness specifically to Christians. They know exactly which points we will challenge them on, and how to "refute" us.

On top of that, South Africa is quite a unique country.....it is a melting pot of religion...almost 100% of people subscribe to one form of religion or another. There are tons of false missionaries there. Tim, I highly suggest this book, if you don't already own it! It has been incredibly useful to me in evangelizing to several groups..... JW's, Mormons, RC's, Unitarians/Universalists, Muslims.... etc. Honestly, if I were still in South Africa I would carry around my Bible and this book at all times! 

Amazon.com: The Kingdom of the Cults: Walter Martin: Books


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## DonP (Apr 19, 2009)

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. NKJV

No sense arguing their heresy with them. 
Just preach the same old Gospel foolishness to them that all men need. If they are Christ's they will come in His time

1 Cor 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. NKJV

Of course you have the freedom to taylor it some in presentation to gain a hearing as Paul on Mars Hill

But when I don't argue trinity or common themes with them that they are prepared for I go to law, sin, the sovereignty of the true God, election, No free will, Rom9 and a real propitiative atonement;
they are dumbfounded with no prepared answer and always say they will have to get back to me. 
They never do as their overseers tell them to avoid my house. 
With the JWs I will sometimes have them read the verses from the Diaglot or their Bible version so they can't say, well that is your Bible says. Another 2nd best is the KJV since they used to use it. 

Then let them know the reason they seldom run across someone like you is because there are few with the heavenly calling and they just met one and most don't know the truth like you do. 

And I toss in the false prophet of 2nd coming predictions. Tell them they will not get to live on the new earth if they listen to a false prophet.
and mechanistic conformity does not prove spirituality, the pharisees had that. They will go to Gehenna and so what if it is not hell and it is just a trash yard where the fire never goes out and the worms continue to eat it up, weeping and gnashing of teeth, do they really want to risk living there forever?

Mormons the same except I mention that most of JS apostles all said if you believed us when we said Jesus and the angel appeared to him believe us now when we tell you it was a hoax. And if you have their Doct and Cov and works to show you can show Brigham taught blood sacrifice and the moon was made of green cheese and green men on it, and blacks were bad, so did god change His mind, or is this a bunch of man made myth. 
Nice moral religion but myth. 

So how can you trust these men?

Jesus said I am the way, no one comes to the Father except through Me so we don't need anyone else to get us there

Always: Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

This completes the Sov of God in salvation, then command them to repent and believe Christ as Lord and to read His word not just man's.


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## Hawaiian Puritan (Apr 20, 2009)

For some reason neither JW's nor Mormons come to our door any more.


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## Tripel (Apr 20, 2009)

After reading through this thread, I'm afraid I still don't understand the use of the word "dangerous". What exactly is dangerous about the JW's? All I'm hearing is "because they know their stuff". Is that the gist of it?


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## DonP (Apr 20, 2009)

They may convince a weaker person to question and have doubts.


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## Glenn Ferrell (Apr 20, 2009)

PeaceMaker said:


> 1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. NKJV
> 
> No sense arguing their heresy with them.
> Just preach the same old Gospel foolishness to them that all men need. If they are Christ's they will come in His time



Certainly don’t argue with them for the sake of debate. Don’t let them divert you into non-essential issues. Don’t exhibit pride or anger.

Show them love, concern, and tell them the truth about essential issues, gently but firmly pointing out flaws in their understanding of scripture, biblical Christianity, Christ and the way of salvation. It is legitimate to discuss with them the authority of scripture, the person of Christ, and salvation by God’s sovereign grace. Such discussions provide the opportunity to share the gospel.

JW’s are dangerous because Satan controls their minds and hearts. Unless I’m in prayer and depending on God rather than my own understanding, I get mentally rattled with I encounter JW’s or Mormons. Though I know they are not going to convince me of anything contrary to biblical truth, there is a spiritual battle going on when they come to the door. It is not a battle for my soul, but for theirs. I try to plant a seed of the gospel, which the Holy Spirit might use to bring doubt, conviction and a seeking after truth.


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## Gloria (Apr 20, 2009)

Glenn Ferrell said:


> PeaceMaker said:
> 
> 
> > 1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. NKJV
> ...



Precisely.


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## Idelette (Apr 20, 2009)

Glenn Ferrell said:


> PeaceMaker said:
> 
> 
> > 1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. NKJV
> ...



Don and Pastor Ferrell, I agree with both of you! There is no sense in debating with anyone, it is not about winning an argument or refuting someone's theology......but it is about sharing the gospel in love and being ready to give an answer for the hope that is within us! It is the work of the Holy Spirit that works in the hearts and minds of God's people. 

As far as being "dangerous", I think every time we talk about spiritual matters to unbelievers it is occasion for Satan! The enemy does not take pleasure in the going forth of God's Word, and he will do anything to stifle it! I think its foolish to assume that this is not a spiritual battle! I think as believers we need to recognize that there is a spiritual war going on and we are in the midst of it! I've seen many Christians get temporarily sucked into Mormonism or JW or Eastern Orthodoxy simply because they were not grounded in Scripture as they should have been! (Of course by God's grace, He brought His people back to the truth, and He had His reasons for allowing it) but it was due to the fact that they were unprepared and did not recognize the spiritual war going on. I think as believers we need to be in continual prayer, and we need to rely on the strength of God rather than our own, as Pastor Ferrell mentioned above. And we need to recognize that this is not a war against flesh and blood but against the spiritual forces of wickedness, and therefore we need to be prepared! However, this should not cause us to despair....for Christ has already defeated the enemy and has already won the battle! 

"Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. Stand firm therefore, HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, and having shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE; in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints..." -Ephesians 6: 10-18


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## LawrenceU (Apr 20, 2009)

One of the most difficult things for me emotionally in witnessing is dialogue with JW's and Mormons. It breaks my heart to see the spiritual blindness and amount of brainwashing that they suffer. When we lived in Arizona (Utah South) I would be despondent for days at times. I worked with large numbers of Mormons. I loved the men. They were / are bound for hell and hopeless and wonderful men from an earthly perspective. I always tried to avoid debate. It does nothing. 

Since living in Mobile I rarely see Mormons. JW's . . . is a different story. They target our neighborhood on a monthly basis. They now avoid my house after one of their young men was shaken deeply by my sharing the gospel. I've talked with him a couple of times since. I pray that his eyes are opened.


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## PresbyDane (Apr 20, 2009)

JW are not dangerous, they always come when I am not home, and one day my wife gave them my cell phone number and they phoned and we made an apointment for them to come to our house so we could talk, they never shoved, so apperently I am the one who is dangerous.


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## OPC'n (Apr 20, 2009)

It really depends on the atheist or Roman Catholic etc. Some of them are very educated in their field and can give you a run for your money. Especially atheists. I think knowing your own faith very well will help you as you talk to anyone. You won't have the answers to everything they throw at you, but being well prepared is a good start. Sounds like you did well.


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## DonP (Apr 20, 2009)

I spent weeks going back and forth with the Greek scholar for the Watch tower, who is a Greek man, in letters. ( back n the olden days) 

He was very challenging and I had to go to God as I searched the word and languages, because at times it was unsettling. (This was 25 years ago.) 
I feel I won eventually but he was not convinced, I hope he was shaken too, but I was solidly convinced by the end of that debate. 
And I became so solid and as a result have a 12 page list of references that have proven helpful to others over the years and I give it to all my Sunday school kids to have as a reference. 

The trinity when being opposed by a person like this can shake you. 
I heard that a man actually left a reformed church I used to go to because he became convinced the trinity was wrong. 

Some things we take on faith and are not smart enough to have them proved, in a scientific sense, if we could be from scripture and evidence. 

The Trinity can fall into this category for some, esp if they do not know a lot of scripture on it. They can be shaken by people trained to hit on one doctrine.


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## EricP (Apr 21, 2009)

*JW and danger*

I certainly do not claim to be an expert in witnessing to cult members, but here in the SE US I've had the opportunity, both in religious and medical settings, to talk with and witness to JW folks. Likely Satanic in nature, many tend to be VERY angry and suspicious--those not in the field distributing tracts seem far less confident in their beliefs, and get hostile when even asked. When met with disappointment (sadly often in my present line of work) they have little to rely on (which can be a God-given foot in the door), and can act out in very aggressive ways. I've also had several JW's as co-workers, and the walls, barriers, and blinders always seem to be on, making relational evangelism difficult too. Some of the "danger" mentioned can be the risk of disappointment, frustration, and anger on our Christian parts in trying to knock and keep knocking on the locked doors....


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## Stomata leontôn (Jul 10, 2009)

Tim said:


> Can anyone identify with this?
> 
> I know that JW's are generally more learned about their own (false) system than most Roman Catholics, for example. Perhaps this is the reason for my thinking the way I do?



I think you are right. Cults such as the JWs and the more dangerous Local Church of Witness Lee (Living Stream Ministry) are organized entirely around control and deception. They market evil under the guise of a church; in other words, they are specifically blaspheming the name of Christ.

Their whole structure is designed to deceive the public and their followers and to cause great psychological harm to their own. You seldom find such militant mindsets among atheists or groups which are fallen-away Christian churches. I think what you encountered is the manifestation of demonic activity, and if it is too much for you, take a Christian brother along, or tell the cult followers emphatically to be gone in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, who is God and Lord of the universe.

You are dealing with evil by intent rather than evil by default.

On the other hand, demons like to wave their arms up and down and appear more fierce than they are. We represent the sovereign God and their is nothing to fear in them.


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## buggy (Jul 17, 2009)

I think it's quite dangerous to witness to cultists when they are going door-to-door. It is very unlikely they will hear what you say and will "mark" you down as a potential convert because that's what their job is after all. 

The Mormons are quite active in my country...


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## DonP (Jul 22, 2009)

One danger of the Watchtower is if you get into a discussion with them of Trinity or read one of the books they use against trinity it could shake your faith. 
When you seriously study the issue from the opponents side it is very challenging to support the trinity. 

One must be well educated as to the reasons behind the interpretations not just quoting a few passages. Some Greek and Hebrew also helps. 
If you really get into it with the knowledgeable they have good arguments for most trinitarian verses. 

But some they don't have decent answers for if any are:
Jer 23:6 Two words not one, YHVH Tsidkenu, unlike Jeremiah or Zechariah or other names which mean Jehovah is my righteousness etc. This is Jehovah as one word. 
Jesus' name is Jehovah, not a title, or called etc. 
I also like to point out they are not monotheists at all. As much as they say there is onl one god use this show their inconsistency. Jesus is the Mighty God. So though there be those called gods there is only one God to us. Well unlike kings or satan etc. Jesus is a God to us. Therefore they believe in two gods. So they are the polytheists not us.

Also they say Jesus is only the Mighty God and Jehovah is the Almighty. 
Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." NKJV
* Jesus is called The Almighty G3841 παντοκράτωρ pantokratōr From G3956 and G2904; the all ruling, that is, God (as absolute and universal sovereign): - Almighty, Omnipotent.

And they will say each person has their own spirit. Yet we see in scripture that Jesus and the Father only have one Spirit. They share a spirit. 2 separate people can't share a spirit they each have their own. But the spirit of Christ spoke through prophets. Some here will say this is like saying the spirit of prophecy about Christ. But there are so many more places Jesus' Spirit is the same and the Holy Spirit.


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