# Reformed books on angels and demons?



## SolaScriptura

Some ladies in my church decided to read and study the old Frank Peretti book, "This Present Darkness" as a way to study angels and demons. I'm happy they are interested in studying, but I'm not at all happy about the book as it is egregiously bad. I want to suggest some positive alternatives, though I understand that a nonfiction work won't be as captivating and enjoyable a read as a fiction book... I'm not aware of many good books on the topic of angels and demons from a solid biblical perspective, much less a Reformed one. I do know about Sproul's book "Unseen Realities," but are there any others you would recommend?


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## zsmcd

Perhaps something more 'enjoyable' may be a video/audio lecture? Ligonier has this series that can be previewed for free and purchased for relatively cheap. If you have an account with Right Now Media they have most if not all of Ligonier's stuff streaming for free.


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## Jack K

Sproul has a book that goes with those lectures. That's the only book that comes to mind. I haven't read it.


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## Fly Caster

https://banneroftruth.org/us/store/church-ministry/satan-cast-out/


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## RamistThomist

Poythress's stuff (articles and lectures) are really good. While he is not reformed, JP Moreland has good takes on it. I mention him because he is a world-class analytic philosopher and so is not one "easily taken in" by gullible claims.


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## RamistThomist

Clinton Arnold is a plain old evangelical, but he did doctoral work on the issue of angels and demons in Paul's epistles and early Christianity. I've read the first work. It's solid.
https://www.amazon.com/Powers-Darkn...qid=1469213355&sr=8-1&keywords=clinton+arnold

https://www.amazon.com/Power-Magic-...9213406&ref_=la_B001ITTHWE_1_4&s=books&sr=1-4


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## Ryan&Amber2013

I'm interested in good materials as well in regards to this area. 

While we're on this subject, something really weird happened to me the other day: I was at work walking down a hallway and I heard a loud whisper behind me say "Ryan", which is my name. There was no one around and I still don't know what to think about it. Any thoughts? Could this be demonic?


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## RamistThomist

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> I'm interested in good materials as well in regards to this area.
> 
> While we're on this subject, something really weird happened to me the other day: I was at work walking down a hallway and I heard a loud whisper behind me say "Ryan", which is my name. There was no one around and I still don't know what to think about it. Any thoughts? Could this be demonic?



Was the whisper external or internal? It *could* be demonic and while I am no expert, and while I am more inclined to view such happenings than most, I have reservations it was demonic. At least, simply saying your name isn't demonic activity. though, of course, I have no idea what it was.


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## Ryan&Amber2013

It was so strange; it came from behind me. It was loud enough to where I thought I was going to turn around and see someone standing there. It was external and I kept turning around to try to make sure there wasn't actually someone there. The strange thing though, is that there are multiple people who have claimed to have had weird things happen to them at my job. I work at an assisted living facility where many people have died. I always try to be rational and not ascribe random things to the spiritual realm, but this was strange. I don't believe in ghosts, so that's why I am wondering if something demonic was happening.

One nurse saw a fog move through a room into a wall, one nurse's phone randomly took a picture and it had a deceased resident's face in the photo, and one nurse walked into a resident's room who has Alzheimer's, and saw a deceased resident sitting on the bed next to the alive resident, and the resident with Alzheimer's told the nurse to get that lady out of her room. Really weird things, and I don't know how true they are, as I didn't see them for myself.


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## Tom Hart

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> One nurse saw a fog move through a room into a wall, one nurse's phone randomly took a picture and it had a deceased resident's face in the photo, and one nurse walked into a resident's room who has Alzheimer's, and saw a deceased resident sitting on the bed next to the alive resident, and the resident with Alzheimer's told the nurse to get that lady out of her room. Really weird things, and I don't know how true they are, as I didn't see them for myself.



I would have to see it to believe it. People have pretty vivid imaginations, and I reckon that if people are already expecting ghostly or supernatural encounters, then they're more likely to imagine it. If your coworkers already believe that the place is haunted or whatever, it should be no surprise when they experience these mysterious (and apparently unverified) happenings.

Also, memory is notoriously doubtful as it is constantly being revised. People will often remember something definitely, even if it is contradicted by video evidence. (Such things happen in courtrooms all the time.)

As for hearing your name spoken, I've heard that this is apparently a common psychological phenomenon. As I understand it, we are wired to recognize our names as a social necessity, so sometimes our brains will mistakenly recognize other sounds as our names. This happens to me fairly often, usually when I'm alone with other people within earshot. My brain seems to tend to interpret one of their words as my name. In your case, if there was no one else around, it could have been any small noise.

Or it could just be someone in the rafters playing tricks on you. 

In any case, while I cannot definitely know what happened to you or your coworkers, I would be extremely hesitant to label such seemingly small mysteries 'demonic activity'.

(And sorry that this is somewhat off topic.)


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## ZackF

I haven't read the material myself but I've heard some stuff of Spurgeon's recommended by others. Maybe someone else knows....


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## RamistThomist

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> It was so strange; it came from behind me. It was loud enough to where I thought I was going to turn around and see someone standing there. It was external and I kept turning around to try to make sure there wasn't actually someone there. The strange thing though, is that there are multiple people who have claimed to have had weird things happen to them at my job. I work at an assisted living facility where many people have died. I always try to be rational and not ascribe random things to the spiritual realm, but this was strange. I don't believe in ghosts, so that's why I am wondering if something demonic was happening.
> 
> One nurse saw a fog move through a room into a wall, one nurse's phone randomly took a picture and it had a deceased resident's face in the photo, and one nurse walked into a resident's room who has Alzheimer's, and saw a deceased resident sitting on the bed next to the alive resident, and the resident with Alzheimer's told the nurse to get that lady out of her room. Really weird things, and I don't know how true they are, as I didn't see them for myself.



On one hand, I try to avoid the materialistic reduction of "Well it can't really be real because it doesn't match my presuppositions of what is possible," and the other temptation to reduce everything to demons (and most charismatics I know don't actually do that. Once you start fighting demons you begin to develop rigorous standards of evidence). So here is my take:

1) Post-death survival of the soul out of the body, besides being an embarrassing Christian fact, is more and more attested in studies.
2) Gregory of Nyssa suggested (though didn't argue for it) that what we call "ghosts" or spirits can occupy "thin" spaces.
3) We are only beginning to understand the nature of consciousness and even matter. There could be myriads of other "fields" of which we have no clue.


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## earl40

ReformedReidian said:


> Ryan&Amber2013 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It was so strange; it came from behind me. It was loud enough to where I thought I was going to turn around and see someone standing there. It was external and I kept turning around to try to make sure there wasn't actually someone there. The strange thing though, is that there are multiple people who have claimed to have had weird things happen to them at my job. I work at an assisted living facility where many people have died. I always try to be rational and not ascribe random things to the spiritual realm, but this was strange. I don't believe in ghosts, so that's why I am wondering if something demonic was happening.
> 
> One nurse saw a fog move through a room into a wall, one nurse's phone randomly took a picture and it had a deceased resident's face in the photo, and one nurse walked into a resident's room who has Alzheimer's, and saw a deceased resident sitting on the bed next to the alive resident, and the resident with Alzheimer's told the nurse to get that lady out of her room. Really weird things, and I don't know how true they are, as I didn't see them for myself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On one hand, I try to avoid the materialistic reduction of "Well it can't really be real because it doesn't match my presuppositions of what is possible," and the other temptation to reduce everything to demons (and most charismatics I know don't actually do that. Once you start fighting demons you begin to develop rigorous standards of evidence). So here is my take:
> 
> 1) Post-death survival of the soul out of the body, besides being an embarrassing Christian fact, is more and more attested in studies.
> 2) Gregory of Nyssa suggested (though didn't argue for it) that what we call "ghosts" or spirits can occupy "thin" spaces.
> 3) We are only beginning to understand the nature of consciousness and even matter. There could be myriads of other "fields" of which we have no clue.
Click to expand...


So your "take" is that you think people are seeing ghosts?


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## RamistThomist

earl40 said:


> ReformedReidian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan&Amber2013 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It was so strange; it came from behind me. It was loud enough to where I thought I was going to turn around and see someone standing there. It was external and I kept turning around to try to make sure there wasn't actually someone there. The strange thing though, is that there are multiple people who have claimed to have had weird things happen to them at my job. I work at an assisted living facility where many people have died. I always try to be rational and not ascribe random things to the spiritual realm, but this was strange. I don't believe in ghosts, so that's why I am wondering if something demonic was happening.
> 
> One nurse saw a fog move through a room into a wall, one nurse's phone randomly took a picture and it had a deceased resident's face in the photo, and one nurse walked into a resident's room who has Alzheimer's, and saw a deceased resident sitting on the bed next to the alive resident, and the resident with Alzheimer's told the nurse to get that lady out of her room. Really weird things, and I don't know how true they are, as I didn't see them for myself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On one hand, I try to avoid the materialistic reduction of "Well it can't really be real because it doesn't match my presuppositions of what is possible," and the other temptation to reduce everything to demons (and most charismatics I know don't actually do that. Once you start fighting demons you begin to develop rigorous standards of evidence). So here is my take:
> 
> 1) Post-death survival of the soul out of the body, besides being an embarrassing Christian fact, is more and more attested in studies.
> 2) Gregory of Nyssa suggested (though didn't argue for it) that what we call "ghosts" or spirits can occupy "thin" spaces.
> 3) We are only beginning to understand the nature of consciousness and even matter. There could be myriads of other "fields" of which we have no clue.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So your "take" is that you think people are seeing ghosts?
Click to expand...


I don't think so. At least not "ghosts" that we traditionally associate with the term. Sometimes ghost sighting are tricks of light, others are overactive psyches. But I do think there exists a category that doesn't quite fall into either. I don't want to call them "ghosts" in the _Sixth Sense_ sense of the word, since that implies stuff about eschatology.


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## Jerusalem Blade

The book referenced by link in post #4, _Satan Cast Out_, by Frederick S. Leahy (BOT), is considered by many a Reformed classic on the topic. David Powlison of CCEF wrote _Power Encounters_ (Baker), as a refutation of the spiritual warfare movement among the Charismatics and others.

I also like Jessie Penn-Lewis' and Evan Roberts' _War on the Saints_, which came out of the excesses of the Welch revival of around 1904-6 (Penn-Lewis was a Calvinistic Methodist, after Martin Lloyd-Jones). Here is an online version of it: http://www.apostasynow.com/wots/Contents.html . Please note that I do not endorse any other material on the Apostasy Now site, but am grateful they published this online, plus give info on where hardcopies may be bought. Also note that it is this unabridged version that is of value.

This is a topic over which there is much disagreement here on PB; personally, I think there is a "Reformed allergy" to knowing about any spiritual activity outside the kingdom of God (like, even our sound doctrine and practice cannot keep satanic deception and influence at bay). In other words, we need to watch and pray, and ask for discernment in these days of increasing occult activity, and psychedelic drug use (as in marijuana, even among Christians).


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## earl40

Jerusalem Blade said:


> This is a topic over which there is much disagreement here on PB; personally, I think there is a "Reformed allergy" to knowing about any spiritual activity outside the kingdom of God (like, even our sound doctrine and practice cannot keep satanic deception and influence at bay). In other words, we need to watch and pray, and ask for discernment in these days of increasing occult activity, and psychedelic drug use (as in marijuana, even among Christians).



Indeed I have such an "allergy" in trying to discern what is going on in the kingdom of God in the spiritual realm.


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## C. Matthew McMahon

The two best works we have published.

William Perkins, Treatise on the Damned Art of Witchcraft, and Nathaniel Holmes on Demonology and Theology. Www.puritanpublications.com I've not found anything better.


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## RamistThomist

Jerusalem Blade said:


> The book referenced by link in post #4, _Satan Cast Out_, by Frederick S. Leahy (BOT), is considered by many a Reformed classic on the topic. David Powlison of CCEF wrote _Power Encounters_ (Baker), as a refutation of the spiritual warfare movement among the Charismatics and others.
> 
> I also like Jessie Penn-Lewis' and Evan Roberts' _War on the Saints_, which came out of the excesses of the Welch revival of around 1904-6 (Penn-Lewis was a Calvinistic Methodist, after Martin Lloyd-Jones). Here is an online version of it: http://www.apostasynow.com/wots/Contents.html . Please note that I do not endorse any other material on the Apostacy Now site, but am grateful they published this online, plus give info on where hardcopies may be bought. Also note that it is this unabridged version that is of value.
> 
> This is a topic over which there is much disagreement here on PB; personally, I think there is a "Reformed allergy" to knowing about any spiritual activity outside the kingdom of God (like, even our sound doctrine and practice cannot keep satanic deception and influence at bay). In other words, we need to watch and pray, and ask for discernment in these days of increasing occult activity, and psychedelic drug use (as in marijuana, even among Christians).



Agreed. I've been physically assaulted by Word-of-Faithers, so I cannot be accused of "carrying water for them." On the other hand, I have dealt with demons firsthand, so to write everything off as "hallucination" or "nuh-uh" doesn't account for any of the evidence.


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## Pilgrim

A more recent work from a Reformed perspective is Brian Borgman and Rob Ventura's _Spiritual Warfare: A Biblical and Balanced Perspective. 

_I'm guessing that Borgman and Ventura is probably a bit more accessible to the lay-person than Powlison is. Regardless, it is really too bad that Powlison's _Power Encounters_ is not in print in any format. But I'm told that Wipf and Stock can do reprints on demand at a lower price than might be expected.


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## Pilgrim

Jessie Penn-Lewis is controversial because of what has been characterized as a negative influence on Evan Roberts as well as her teaching that a real Christian can be possessed by a demon, which is something that most (non-charismatics and maybe non-Catholics anyway) deny even if they acknowledge demonic activity otherwise. I think this is largely due to the idea that a person who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit cannot also be possessed or controlled by demons. (I'm not looking to argue about the validity of the term possession or oppression, which is what many of the authors themselves use.) 

Other books of varying degrees of Reformedness include: 

Donald Gray Barnhouse--_The Invisible War_ (If I recall correctly the gap theory is espoused, fairly common in older works. This is where the fall of Satan is typically situated.)

Erwin Lutzer--_The Serpent of Paradise_ (Foreward by Sproul) 

Conrad Murrell--_Practical Demonology_ (By a Calvinistic Baptist who was an itinerant evangelist who was also engaged in deliverance ministry for many years. He holds to the gap theory, although I don't know if that comes out directly in the book. (I heard him once say that he held to this moreso due to his demonology instead of geology.) He also teaches that Christians can be "possessed" instead of just "oppressed." Because of this, I was surprised to see a mainstream Calvinistic publisher reissue this a few years ago. My recollection is that he teaches that basically everyone has demons and that usually the demons leave upon conversion, but not always.) 

Merrill F. Unger--_Biblical Demonology_
----------------_Demons in the World Today_
----------------_The Haunting of Bishop Pike_
----------------_What Demons Can Do to Saints_ (Also teaches that Christians can be possessed (or in need of exorcism, if we don't like the term possessed.) He followed his teacher L.S. Chafer's teaching on soteriology and so basically taught that if a Christian (defined as a person who believes the right things about Jesus) was "carnal" and especially if he dabbled in the occult, drugs, etc. that he could be demonized. In his first two books, he denied that a Christian could be demonized in this way, but he was later persuaded otherwise. This book has a useful bibliography that includes books up to the early 80s or so.


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## Pergamum

Pilgrim said:


> Jessie Penn-Lewis is controversial because of what has been characterized as a negative influence on Evan Roberts as well as her teaching that a real Christian can be possessed by a demon, which is something that most (non-charismatics and maybe non-Catholics anyway) deny even if they acknowledge demonic activity otherwise. I think this is largely due to the idea that a person who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit cannot also be possessed or controlled by demons. (I'm not looking to argue about the validity of the term possession or oppression, which is what many of the authors themselves use.)
> 
> Other books of varying degrees of Reformedness include:
> 
> Donald Gray Barnhouse--_The Invisible War_ (If I recall correctly the gap theory is espoused, fairly common in older works. This is where the fall of Satan is typically situated.)
> 
> Erwin Lutzer--_The Serpent of Paradise_ (Foreward by Sproul)
> 
> Conrad Murrell--_Practical Demonology_ (By a Calvinistic Baptist who was an itinerant evangelist who was also engaged in deliverance ministry for many years. He holds to the gap theory, although I don't know if that comes out directly in the book. (I heard him once say that he held to this moreso due to his demonology instead of geology.) He also teaches that Christians can be "possessed" instead of just "oppressed." Because of this, I was surprised to see a mainstream Calvinistic publisher reissue this a few years ago. My recollection is that he teaches that basically everyone has demons and that usually the demons leave upon conversion, but not always.)
> 
> Merrill F. Unger--_Biblical Demonology_
> ----------------_Demons in the World Today_
> ----------------_The Haunting of Bishop Pike_
> ----------------_What Demons Can Do to Saints_ (Also teaches that Christians can be possessed (or in need of exorcism, if we don't like the term possessed.) He followed his teacher L.S. Chafer's teaching on soteriology and so basically taught that if a Christian was "carnal" and especially if he dabbled in the occult, drugs, etc. that he could be demonized. In his first two books, he denied that a Christian could be demonized in this way, but he was later persuaded otherwise. This book has a useful bibliography that includes books up to the early 80s or so.



Please...not Conrad Murrell's _Practical Demonology_. I love the man, but this book is very unsound. 

We don't have demons of gossip and demons of lust, etc (demons are not bad character traits, but personal entities)., sports. Yet Murrell lists demons of gossip, masturbation, music, and smoking. One preacher had a demon (yes, even preachers and Christians can have demons) had a demon called "Commentaries." So...take your pick of vice or sin and it may be due to a demon.

He also advocates ridding your church building of demons. 

If you have crying babies in your church services...well, according to Murrell, they might have a demon.
Since he is influential in my circles I have long thought I needed to do a critique of this book, since its effects live on.


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## Pergamum

I suggest the books of Clinton Arnold: https://www.amazon.com/Powers-Darkness-Principalities-Pauls-Letters/dp/0830813365/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1469298783&sr=8-1&keywords=clinton+arnold _Powers of Darkness_.

Or: https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Questions-about-Spiritual-Warfare/dp/0801057841/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1469298783&sr=8-3&keywords=clinton+arnold _3 Crucial Questions about Spiritual Warfare. _


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## Pilgrim

Is anyone familiar with Demonolgia Sacra, or A Treatise of Satan's Temptations by Richard Gilpin or The Christian Warfare against the Devil, World and Flesh by John Downame?


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## RamistThomist

Pergamum said:


> I suggest the books of Clinton Arnold: https://www.amazon.com/Powers-Darkness-Principalities-Pauls-Letters/dp/0830813365/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1469298783&sr=8-1&keywords=clinton+arnold _Powers of Darkness_.
> 
> Or: https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Questions-about-Spiritual-Warfare/dp/0801057841/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1469298783&sr=8-3&keywords=clinton+arnold _3 Crucial Questions about Spiritual Warfare. _



Seconded. Arnold also has some audio talks online which are good.


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## Pergamum

ReformedReidian said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> I suggest the books of Clinton Arnold: https://www.amazon.com/Powers-Darkness-Principalities-Pauls-Letters/dp/0830813365/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1469298783&sr=8-1&keywords=clinton+arnold _Powers of Darkness_.
> 
> Or: https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Questions-about-Spiritual-Warfare/dp/0801057841/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1469298783&sr=8-3&keywords=clinton+arnold _3 Crucial Questions about Spiritual Warfare. _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seconded. Arnold also has some audio talks online which are good.
Click to expand...


Do you have a link?


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## RamistThomist

Pergamum said:


> ReformedReidian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> I suggest the books of Clinton Arnold: https://www.amazon.com/Powers-Darkness-Principalities-Pauls-Letters/dp/0830813365/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1469298783&sr=8-1&keywords=clinton+arnold _Powers of Darkness_.
> 
> Or: https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Questions-about-Spiritual-Warfare/dp/0801057841/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1469298783&sr=8-3&keywords=clinton+arnold _3 Crucial Questions about Spiritual Warfare. _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seconded. Arnold also has some audio talks online which are good.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do you have a link?
Click to expand...


http://www.cslewisinstitute.org/A_Collision_of_Worlds_page6

http://www.tumi-la.org/resources/spiritualwarfareseminar.html


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## Clark-Tillian

I do not post often, and I'm leery of posting on this topic for personal and ministerial reasons. However, a few points. I think we all agree that demonic entities exist; these entities can oppress/harass Christians--they MAY not possess us; these entities have been crushed by Christ's resurrection and ascension (Ephesians/Colossians). This is not an area for casual study, and a curious peek through the window can open very dangerous doors. Sadly, many clergymen aren't too well equipped to handle this topic. I would seriously recommend the ladies mentioned by the OP forsake this and, instead, study Christ's victory over these entities under the guidance of the TE--whose posts always strike me as balanced and astute.. _Precious Remedies Against Satan's Devices by Thomas Brooks is an excellent place to start. Gurnall's The Christian in Complete Armor is also a wise choice. The LC on the Law, while not directly an answer to the question, is always profitable and sane and reasonable._


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## Verkehrsteilnehmer

Biblical teaching on the devil – 1968
by William Still

Dave
PHX OPC


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## johnny

An anthropologist friend of mine had a scientific explanation for ghostly phenomenon and at the risk of being laughed off here I will put it forward. The reason why apparitions wear old style clothes and are often only visible from the waist up (appear to be floating or missing legs) is because they are hallucinations caused by electrical charges in the area which trigger ancestral memories in the collective memory of your great grandparents that you inherited in your dna when you were born, this is why you only see half the person because when you look at someone, you only see them from the chest up,
So in other words you are looking at your great grand mothers best friend.

Because our brains are wired like electrical signals, this often happens in areas where there is electrical charges (fault lines where rocks are hard pressed together ect)

Just a theory but I think it explains some things.


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## Jerusalem Blade

Hi Chris,

In your post #20 you mention a possible negative influence of Penn-Lewis over Even Roberts. The fizzling out of the Welch Revival after a year or two seems to be due mainly to the lack of Biblical preaching and grounding in the Scriptures under Roberts' leadership. Highly influenced by the Keswick movement's theology, he was greatly enthused yet naive and immature. Penn-Lewis and her husband took him in to recuperate after he suffered a breakdown of some sort.

The criticism of Jessie Penn-Lewis came (comes) primarily from the Charismatic / Pentecostal sector, as she rightly warned of both their excesses and unbiblical teaching and practice. Evidently she also did not agree with Lloyd-Jones' acceptance of the continuing gifts, and a subsequent baptism of the Holy Spirit following conversion.

Her view with regard to the demonization of a genuine believer does cause some to look askance at her. However, when a child of God goes into sin—and I am thinking of occult activity, such as the psychedelic drugs of the 60s and 70s (and today!), or naive participation in New Age or occult spirituality—they are not automatically protected from that they have willingly entered into and opened themselves to. 

Yes, a soul who belongs to God can _*never*_ be possessed by demonic forces, for no one can snatch them out of Jesus' or the Father's hand (John 10:27,28,29,30). They are the property of God. But they can be "infiltrated"—for they have opened depths of their souls—and oppressed. There is a naivete which denies this, but Christian workers in some populations (missionaries, etc) see this. Penn-Lewis' work was a help to those coming out of the occult depths of the false but potent paths the countercultures of Woodstock opened up, and the New Age perpetuated.

This is interesting and important stuff, for the times we are in are rife with occult activity.

Pastor Kevin (post 27), I agree with your great caution, though the "dangerous doors" have already been flung wide—and that for half a century!—and discernment along with the word of God are what is needed in such times. "When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him" (Isa 59:19). This is partly why I have written the book, _A Great and Terrible Love: A Visionary Journey from Woodstock's Sorceries to God's Paradise_. That, and as a testimony to this generation—both of the dangers we face, and of the Lord's goodness, love, and saving power.

A better take on Roberts and Penn-Lewis (despite being written by a DTS grad): http://www.restorationgj.com/id139.htm


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## Jeri Tanner

It has seemed to me that in the NT Epistles, there's no instruction on engaging with or dealing with demons or demonic activity, except to live so as to "not give place to the devil" through anger (Ephesians 4:26-27), unforgiveness (?) (2 Corinthians 2:7-11), sexual defrauding (1 Corinthians 7:5)-- those are the instances I can think of. I can't think of instances where we are to deal with any sinful thoughts as (maybe)being directly, demonically inspired. So how would we know/discern whether anything we are dealing with, whether in our own thoughts or in anyone else's behavior, etc.- is demonic in origin? Is there anything required of us in dealing with Satan beyond the normal means of the kind of prayer taught us (whether for ourselves or others) and the word of God, the gospel? How would anyone "discern" that a situation calls for direct confrontation with a demonic entity unless one is claiming to have one of the spiritual gifts of divine "knowledge" that is considered to have expired after the times of the apostles? Really interested in answers to these questions. It does have to do with the OP, in that I really think what books one reads matters.


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## RamistThomist

Ironically, some of the most sane and level-headed advice I've gotten on this subject comes from some charismatics. When you start to deal with demonic manifestations (e.g., people who have know prior knowledge of you but are able to tell your deepest secrets) you begin to develop standards of evidence. For all of his faults, John Wimber warned against seeing demons under every tree.

And tagging on to Jerri's post, a lot of demons are just like rats that feed on the garbage in your soul. In many cases for a Christian, just get rid of the garbage (e.g, stop watching p0rn, stop doing drugs or binging on alcohol, etc).

I am going to go ahead and mention this book because it always comes up: Malachi Martin's _Hostage to the Devil_. While Martin has an amazing back story and is a fantastic writer, I do not recommend this book. Aside from the Romish baggage, it paints a picture of exorcism that is about as opposite as the NT as you can get. I don't dispute the actual cases in the book. I just think it is a bad way of "doing it."


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## lynnie

I had a PCA pastor once who recommended Neil Anderson's The Bondage Breaker, with a few disclaimers. PCA missionaries had found it helpful on a foreign mission field steeped in dark forces. I read it myself with a view to talking to somebody who was getting into binding demons and breaking curses.

N.A. uses strictly a truth approach- replacing lies with truth. Apparently he has helped hundreds if not thousands of people severely tormented by demonic forces. Backgrounds like childhood ritual satanic sex abuse, or such abuse that they had true split personalities. He refuses to speak to demons or bind demons or even cast them out when they manifest in his counseling sessions(not saying exorcism is wrong, just relating the author's position). His entire ministry is replacing lies with scripture's truths. 

Satan is a liar and the father of lies, and we need renewed minds, and there are all kinds of lies underneath demonic oppression. You might want to read it just to understand the "truth approach" and make sure your truths are accurate (some people try to do this with a self esteem boost method included, better to talk about total depravity first and then the love of Christ on the cross.) 

I found it helpful when our girl started cutting at age 15 (long story, birth mother in Romania had contacted the agency and wanted to contact our girl, and dear daughter had cried herself to sleep for years about her Mom abandoning her). I would look at those forearms gashed with bloody slashes and tell her every time that deep in her heart she knew that without the shedding of blood there was no forgiveness of sin, and she was trying to be her own Jesus, shed her own blood and be her own atonement. Demons talked back to me, I kid you not. Deep gutteral voice, face snarling up like not human, it was creepy, really dark and creepy. But, I knew from the book not to be tempted to try and cast it out or bind it- it was lies about her childhood she had to put off herself and replace with truth....and with her, it would have been a mistake anyway to focus on demons and not God's perfect good sovereignty. Maybe with some people you can do exorcisms, but we never thought it right for our daughter. (she is 20 and doing great now with the Lord and us btw, God used many means of grace to reach her and deliver her from those demonic forces).

Thanks for all the other recommendations, the way this country is going I expect the subject may get much more necessary.


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## Pergamum

CRI - The Christian Research Institute, has done a series of articles examining Neil Anderson's book, the Bondage Breaker,that is worthy to examine here: http://www.equip.org/article/the-bondage-maker-examining-the-message-and-method-of-neil-t-anderson-part-one/

And here are two more critical articles on the Bondage Breaker book:

http://www.christiandiscernment.com/Christian%20Discernment/CD%20PDF/Book%20pdf/28%20NeilAnderson.pdf

http://www.logosapologia.org/book-review-the-bondage-breaker-by-neil-anderson/

I would not NOT recommend the book. Anderson represents evangelical thought on the topic. There is a value in seeing what many evangelical churches are teaching on this topic. But I would read it critically. It has some major flaws. I believe Frederick Leahy's Satan Cast Down to be much more sound.


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## MW

Thomas Vincent, Morning Exercises, 6:339-340:



> Mr. Mede interpreteth the διδασκαλια δαιμονιων, to be doctrines, not of devils, which they are the authors of, but _of_ demons, as the word signifieth, or _concerning_ demons, as the inferior deified powers were called by the Gentiles, whom they thought a middle sort of divine powers between the sovereign and heavenly gods and mortal men; whose office was to be agents and mediators between the heavenly gods and men, whose original was the deified souls of worthy men after death, and some of a higher degree that never were imprisoned in bodies, unto whom they consecrated images, pillars, and temples, adoring them there and their relics: and he telleth us, that "the doctrine of demons" comprehends, in most express manner, the whole idolatry of the mystery of iniquity, the deifying and invocating of saints and angels, (those middle powers between God and mortal men,) the bowing to images, the worshipping of crosses as new idol-columns, the adoring and templing of relics, the worshipping of any other visible thing upon supposal of any divinity therein. "What copy," saith he, "was ever so like the example, as all this to the doctrine of demons? And is not this now fulfilled which was foretold in Rev. 11:2, — that the second and outmost court of the temple, (which is the second state of the Christian church,) together with the holy city, should be trodden down, and over-trampled by the Gentiles (that is, overwhelmed with the Gentiles' idolatry) forty and two months?" The parallel may be read at large in that ingenious piece of Mr. Mede's, called, "The Apostasy of the latter Times," upon this text in Timothy; and I am very prone to think, that he hath more fully expressed and explained the mind of the Holy Ghost in this place, than any that went before him.


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## Jerusalem Blade

Hello Jeri,

There actually are some directions in the NT for dealing with satanic activity: "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you" (James 4:7). There is the classic passage in Eph 6:10-19, indicating engagement with and standing fast against such activity. In 2 Cor 2:11, dealing with a pastoral matter and forgiveness, Paul indicated such compassion was warranted "Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices." Though some of us really are ignorant!

It is not openly and systematically presented in Scripture, for it is a dangerous territory to enter for the curious, and those not walking in real holiness. There are those who do deal with such, as in this thread from last year:

http://www.puritanboard.com/showthr...formed-and-others-quotes-on-spiritual-warfare

The Puritans (and many others) believed that as a tempter, deceiver, oppressor, and accuser Satan and his hosts were active, and to be resisted. The best defense against such was to be living in accord with the word of God, and to be under godly and wise overseers. The most powerful weapon against the forces of darkness was the preaching of the gospel. Regarding individuals, the Puritans believed the devils were able to tempt them with thoughts and images; sometimes, in a soul uninstructed in resisting such, streams of such thoughts could be presented to them to the end of them thinking it was their own thoughts, blasphemous and foul. We can see such phenomena in some persons thought to have OCD.

There is an ignorance of these things in some Reformed communities, we thinking ourselves safe if we keep correct doctrine and live clean; but deceivers are crafty in exploiting our ignorance. This is why I like Penn-Lewis' work. In these days the New Age spirituality (eastern paths, Hindu and Buddhist occult visions of the spirit world, etc) have become so incorporated into our institutions and lives that they are no longer remarkable or even visible. 

This book by Dave Hunt exposes some of it: _America: The Sorcerer’s Apprentice__; _yes, Hunt is dispensational and a strong opponent of Reformed Theology, but he has a spiritual awareness and discernment many of we Reformed, alas, do not have. At any rate his info is basically investigative reporting by a Christian on the New Age spiritual paths permeating our culture; and this book is old, but certainly not dated—only to say that things are worse now. The days we are in require more awareness than most of us have. With the advent of potent marijuana on the verge of becoming legalized nationally—and no clear teaching against it coming from the churches—we are in danger of a powerful demonic influence entering the temple of God.

But there is a great resistance to such thinking and warnings. Which bodes ill for us in the days ahead.


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## MW

John Collinges in Matthew Poole's Commentary:



> But others think that by doctrines of devils here are not to be understood doctrines so published, but doctrines concerning devils; and that the meaning is, that in the last times the pagan doctrine concerning demons should be restored. The pagan demons were an inferior sort of gods, a kind of middle beings between their highest gods and men, whose office was to be advocates and mediators between men and the highest gods, because they judged it was not lawful for men to come to the highest gods immediately; these they worshipped by images, even as the papists at this day make use of and worship angels and saints. See more fully what Mr. Mede saith upon this argument in his own book, and in Mr. Pool’s Latin Synopsis upon this text; and what he saith seems very probably the sense of this text, especially considering the two doctrines mentioned ver. 3.


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## MW

Friends, please take seriously and consider carefully the quotations from Messrs Vincent and Collinges on 1 Timothy 4, which have been posted. Without being aware of what you are doing your comments on the present activity of "demons" may be re-introducing the pagan doctrine of demons. Such a possibility must be very alarming to a saint of God.


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## lynnie

Pergamum....

Yikes. But its been a while since I read it. I came from a charismatic background originally where everything seemed to be demons including a whole lot of sinful flesh. And I knew that was wrong, but I was familiar with some people where I knew the opposite was wrong too (saying Christians can never be oppressed by demons....Jesus cast out demons from Covenant people and called it the children's bread, not for "dogs"). I was in that broad sweeping Jesus people revival and every manner of drug and occult background was getting saved, and with some the torment was more than just the sin nature operating. (I know people here may not agree with this possibility for Christians; if I am not confessional please alert me and I won't mention it further. I know occasionally the Anglicans did do exorcisms, and I think Puritans as well so I assume it is acceptable to say this.).

Anyway, I found Armstrong to be so incredibly helpful after a background of watching pastors binding and commanding spirits to come out- lots of pastors did that sort of thing all the time. It was all about tongues, prophecy, words of knowledge, discerning of evil spirits, and Hal Lindsey rapture any day now. Some truth and much error.

What I've seen since is the enormous help of just learning truth about God, and knowing he ordains everything and is sovereign over everything- even terrible painful backgrounds- and works it all for good and loves us. I know this approach of not talking to demons, focusing on them, binding them, etc, but making the person think through what lies are going on in the head and what the truth is, has helped multitudes of people get free of satanic oppression. It makes sense- why sweep the house clean and leave it empty and have seven worse come in, you have to fill the house. Bible study and theology fills the mind.

I don't know all the answers because this approach rejects exorcisms entirely which may be wrong too. But anyway, that is why I liked that book. Lots of good links posted, I'll have to read more.


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## lynnie

Rev Winzer, I don't understand. Of course thinking a demon is some sort of inferior God to higher Gods is pagan and terrible. But we see them as entirely evil spirit beings who are created, and God is creator. We don't see them as mediators between man and God, and I don't think people on this board hold to the mentality of your quote. We know that Satan does nothing except as God permits and ordains for His purpose. Jesus triumphed over all powers of darkness on the cross, yet we do not see them fully subject to him yet, even though it was all made subject to Him ..Heb 2:8

We are not even Arminians, where God gets one vote and the devil gets another vote and we get the deciding vote.

Aren't you the one who posted a while back that you don't believe in demons at all, and when Jesus cast out demons you didn't believe that meant actual evil spirit beings? I forget your position exactly, but I don't think we are talking about your quote.


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## Jeri Tanner

MW said:


> Friends, please take seriously and consider carefully the quotations from Messrs Vincent and Collinges on 1 Timothy 4, which have been posted. Without being aware of what you are doing your comments on the present activity of "demons" may be re-introducing the pagan doctrine of demons. Such a possibility must be very alarming to a saint of God.



I would like to hear more about this, for it rings true to me. It's what I was trying to convey in my comment above, though I think that may not have been clear. I don't see the Scripture as teaching us to delve into these things. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ryan&Amber2013

What do you think of this man's attitude? “On one occasion Wigglesworth awoke during the night aware of a satanic presence. Looking across the room, he saw the Devil himself standing there. Wigglesworth said to Satan, ‘Oh, it’s only you.’ Then he turned over and went back to sleep,”


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## MW

lynnie said:


> Aren't you the one who posted a while back that you don't believe in demons at all, and when Jesus cast out demons you didn't believe that meant actual evil spirit beings? I forget your position exactly, but I don't think we are talking about your quote.



http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php/84279-Ghosts-spirits-demons?p=1055102#post1055102

It is difficult to discuss the matter where the majority know not what they affirm. My only concern is to clarify what is meant by terms so that we can be sure we are speaking by the Spirit and saying "Jesus is Lord."


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## Jeri Tanner

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Hello Jeri,
> 
> There actually are some directions in the NT for dealing with satanic activity: "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you" (James 4:7). There is the classic passage in Eph 6:10-19, indicating engagement with and standing fast against such activity. In 2 Cor 2:11, dealing with a pastoral matter and forgiveness, Paul indicated such compassion was warranted "Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices." Though some of us really are ignorant!
> 
> It is not openly and systematically presented in Scripture, for it is a dangerous territory to enter for the curious, and those not walking in real holiness. There are those who do deal with such, as in this thread from last year:
> 
> http://www.puritanboard.com/showthr...formed-and-others-quotes-on-spiritual-warfare
> 
> The Puritans (and many others) believed that as a tempter, deceiver, oppressor, and accuser Satan and his hosts were active, and to be resisted. The best defense against such was to be living in accord with the word of God, and to be under godly and wise overseers. The most powerful weapon against the forces of darkness was the preaching of the gospel. Regarding individuals, the Puritans believed the devils were able to tempt them with thoughts and images; sometimes, in a soul uninstructed in resisting such, streams of such thoughts could be presented to them to the end of them thinking it was their own thoughts, blasphemous and foul. We can see such phenomena in some persons thought to have OCD.
> 
> There is an ignorance of these things in some Reformed communities, we thinking ourselves safe if we keep correct doctrine and live clean; but deceivers are crafty in exploiting our ignorance. This is why I like Penn-Lewis' work. In these days the New Age spirituality (eastern paths, Hindu and Buddhist occult visions of the spirit world, etc) have become so incorporated into our institutions and lives that they are no longer remarkable or even visible.
> 
> This book by Dave Hunt exposes some of it: _America: The Sorcerer’s Apprentice__; _yes, Hunt is dispensational and a strong opponent of Reformed Theology, but he has a spiritual awareness and discernment many of we Reformed, alas, do not have. At any rate his info is basically investigative reporting by a Christian on the New Age spiritual paths permeating our culture; and this book is old, but certainly not dated—only to say that things are worse now. The days we are in require more awareness than most of us have. With the advent of potent marijuana on the verge of becoming legalized nationally—and no clear teaching against it coming from the churches—we are in danger of a powerful demonic influence entering the temple of God.
> 
> But there is a great resistance to such thinking and warnings. Which bodes ill for us in the days ahead.



Thanks, Steve. What I'm maintaining—unless someone can show me differently from Scripture— is that Scripture doesn't teach us to deal with demons at all. I've commented before on another thread a while back concerning Brooks' Precious Remedies, that I can't see Scriptural warrant for believing that Satan can put thoughts or images into our minds. I know many have godly people have believed and still do believe so, but where in Scripture can that case be made? I believe all the texts in the epistles concerning Satan. I just don't see that any of them call the Christian to deal with Satan, as has been proposed here.


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## MW

Jeri Tanner said:


> I just don't see that any of them call the Christian to deal with Satan, as has been proposed here.



Well observed. The Son of God was manifested to destroy the "works" of the devil; it is the devil's "wiles" that we must stand against, and to do that we must be clothed in the whole armour of God.


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## Pergamum

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> What do you think of this man's attitude? “On one occasion Wigglesworth awoke during the night aware of a satanic presence. Looking across the room, he saw the Devil himself standing there. Wigglesworth said to Satan, ‘Oh, it’s only you.’ Then he turned over and went back to sleep,”



Mr. Wigglesworth sounds full of baloney.


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## johnny

Pergamum said:


> Ryan&Amber2013 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What do you think of this man's attitude? “On one occasion Wigglesworth awoke during the night aware of a satanic presence. Looking across the room, he saw the Devil himself standing there. Wigglesworth said to Satan, ‘Oh, it’s only you.’ Then he turned over and went back to sleep,”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Wigglesworth sounds full of baloney.
Click to expand...


I heard that was Luther and that the devil was sitting on the end of his bed.


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## RamistThomist

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> What do you think of this man's attitude? “On one occasion Wigglesworth awoke during the night aware of a satanic presence. Looking across the room, he saw the Devil himself standing there. Wigglesworth said to Satan, ‘Oh, it’s only you.’ Then he turned over and went back to sleep,”



Wigglesworth was a highly...problematic...individual in all areas of doctrine.


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## RamistThomist

Jeri Tanner said:


> is that Scripture doesn't teach us to deal with demons at all



It says we war against principalities in the heavenly places. 

And it depends on what you mean by "dealing with Satan." I doubt that Satan "possesses" very many people, simply because most aren't important.


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## RamistThomist

> This book by Dave Hunt exposes some of it: America: The Sorcerer’s Apprentice; yes, Hunt is dispensational and a strong opponent of Reformed Theology, but he has a spiritual awareness and discernment many of we Reformed, alas, do not have.



It's good in that he lays out the empirical evidence very well. Hunt is a weak analyst but he did his homework. I actually don't debate this issue very much. The ancient church called demons bodiless intelligences who could...to varying levels of intensity...entrap individuals. Even allowing for pious forgery, the amount of evidence is simply overwhelming. And it meshes with Scripture, too, for what it's worth.


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## Contra_Mundum

Preaching yesterday on a text including Luke 22:3, I quote from Calvin:


> With good reason, therefore, does Luke expressly say that _Satan entered_ into him; not that the Spirit of God formerly directed him, for he would not have been addicted to theft and robbery, if he had not been the slave of Satan. But Luke means, that he was at that time wholly given up to Satan, so that, like a desperate man, he violently sought his destruction.
> 
> For though Satan drives us every day to crimes, and reigns in us, when he hurries us into a course of extraordinary wickedness; yet he is said to enter into the reprobate, when he takes possession of all their senses, overthrows the fear of God, extinguishes the light of reason, and destroys every feeling of shame. This extremity of vengeance God does not execute on any but those who are already devoted to destruction. Let us therefore learn to repent early, lest our long-continued harshness should confirm the reign of Satan within us; for as soon as we have been abandoned to this tyranny, his rage will have no bounds.
> 
> It is particularly worthy of notice, that the cause and source of so great blindness in Judas was avarice, which makes it evident that it is justly denominated by Paul the root of all evils, (1 Timothy 6:10.) *To inquire here whether or not Satan entered into Judas bodily is an idle speculation.* We ought rather to consider how fearfully monstrous it is, that men formed after the image of God, and appointed to be temples for the Holy Spirit, should not only be turned into filthy stables or sinks, but should become the wretched abodes of Satan.


http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom33.ii.xxv.html?highlight=satan,entered#highlight


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## RamistThomist

Contra_Mundum said:


> Preaching yesterday on a text including Luke 22:3, I quote from Calvin:
> 
> 
> 
> With good reason, therefore, does Luke expressly say that _Satan entered_ into him; not that the Spirit of God formerly directed him, for he would not have been addicted to theft and robbery, if he had not been the slave of Satan. But Luke means, that he was at that time wholly given up to Satan, so that, like a desperate man, he violently sought his destruction.
> 
> For though Satan drives us every day to crimes, and reigns in us, when he hurries us into a course of extraordinary wickedness; yet he is said to enter into the reprobate, when he takes possession of all their senses, overthrows the fear of God, extinguishes the light of reason, and destroys every feeling of shame. This extremity of vengeance God does not execute on any but those who are already devoted to destruction. Let us therefore learn to repent early, lest our long-continued harshness should confirm the reign of Satan within us; for as soon as we have been abandoned to this tyranny, his rage will have no bounds.
> 
> It is particularly worthy of notice, that the cause and source of so great blindness in Judas was avarice, which makes it evident that it is justly denominated by Paul the root of all evils, (1 Timothy 6:10.) *To inquire here whether or not Satan entered into Judas bodily is an idle speculation.* We ought rather to consider how fearfully monstrous it is, that men formed after the image of God, and appointed to be temples for the Holy Spirit, should not only be turned into filthy stables or sinks, but should become the wretched abodes of Satan.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom33.ii.xxv.html?highlight=satan,entered#highlight
Click to expand...


Agreed. I think Satan does enter people, but since Satan is not omnipresent, I don't think he enters most "bad guys."


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## Jeri Tanner

ReformedReidian said:


> Jeri Tanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> is that Scripture doesn't teach us to deal with demons at all
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It says we war against principalities in the heavenly places.
> 
> And it depends on what you mean by "dealing with Satan." I doubt that Satan "possesses" very many people, simply because most aren't important.
Click to expand...


The warring ('wrestling,' Eph 6:12) we're called to = "standing against the wiles of the devil", done by putting on the whole armor of God, which = the right knowledge of God and his ways, the right love for God and man, submitting ourselves to God, prayer at all times, etc. The whole book of Ephesians and how it calls us to live is being summed up when Paul begins his "Finally, my brethren..." Spiritual warfare is being waged every time we pray the Lord's prayer, and every time, for the Lord's sake and by the Spirit we put to death the deeds of the flesh and by the Spirit walk in holiness. Stuff like that. It is not about direct confrontation with Satan or demons. The truth is much, much better than all that stuff. We're to be faithful to pray, to use the means of grace, to grow in love and service. God deals with the unseen forces arrayed against us as individuals and his church. This is what I believe the Scriptures teach (poorly stated though it is).


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## Jerusalem Blade

Hello Jeri,

While such experience may not be known to you, the Biblical accounts do speak of personal and "intimate" encounters with the devil and his subordinate devils, as the verbs "resist", "wrestle", and "withstand" all speak of. Eph 6:10-19 is a passage indicating warfare with the forces of evil that are not "flesh and blood". The testimony Scripture shows should give you to consider its reality nonetheless.

Rev 12:10,11 says, "...the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death." Does this not speak of spirits of accusation that we overcome by the power of God in the testimony of the cross, the cleansing blood, and the resurrection?

Yes, there will be some who deny the reality of the warfare Eph 6 &etc speak of, but this does not negate the obligation of those who know it to be true to follow in the footsteps of our Champion—although He won the victory by crushing the serpent, while we only do occasional mop-up until all the enemies are put under His feet.

Still, it does sound like you have a healthy approach to godliness, and steering clear of dark stuff.


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## RamistThomist

Jeri Tanner said:


> It is not about direct confrontation with Satan or demons.



I don't see how one precludes the other, especially since we see early Christians doing precisely what you said we can't do.


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## RamistThomist

By all means steer clear of dark stuff. I was researching Alastair Crowley and his connections to British intelligence and things were getting ugly--I had to just stop. The only time I can remember coming across a demonic entity was when I was reading a neo-Marxist book.


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## py3ak

Jeri Tanner said:


> This is what I believe the Scriptures teach (poorly stated though it is).



I found it very well stated, and very cogent indeed.


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## johnny

ReformedReidian said:


> By all means steer clear of dark stuff. I was researching Alastair Crowley and his connections to British intelligence and things were getting ugly--I had to just stop. The only time I can remember coming across a demonic entity was when I was reading a neo-Marxist book.



This is interesting to me that you have stated this.

I was reading the Crowley Biography "The Beast Demystified" that I had borrowed from the local library, and that night my wife and I both woke up in fright after having the same nightmare about a dwarf running around our bed. She turned to me and said "get that book out of the house" which I did the very next day.

We still laugh about it,,


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## RamistThomist

johnny said:


> ReformedReidian said:
> 
> 
> 
> By all means steer clear of dark stuff. I was researching Alastair Crowley and his connections to British intelligence and things were getting ugly--I had to just stop. The only time I can remember coming across a demonic entity was when I was reading a neo-Marxist book.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is interesting to me that you have stated this.
> 
> I was reading the Crowley Biography "The Beast Demystified" that I had borrowed from the local library, and that night my wife and I both woke up in fright after having the same nightmare about a dwarf running around our bed. She turned to me and said "get that book out of the house" which I did the very next day.
> 
> We still laugh about it,,
Click to expand...


Yeah, I've never read any more of Slavoj Zizek since. I'm also wary of HP Lovecraft stuff. I am working through his fiction, but I am aware that a lot of Satanists and Typhonians are into him.


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## Jeri Tanner

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Hello Jeri,
> 
> While such experience may not be known to you, the Biblical accounts do speak of personal and "intimate" encounters with the devil and his subordinate devils, as the verbs "resist", "wrestle", and "withstand" all speak of. Eph 6:10-19 is a passage indicating warfare with the forces of evil that are not "flesh and blood". The testimony Scripture shows should give you to consider its reality nonetheless.
> 
> Rev 12:10,11 says, "...the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death." Does this not speak of spirits of accusation that we overcome by the power of God in the testimony of the cross, the cleansing blood, and the resurrection?
> 
> Yes, there will be some who deny the reality of the warfare Eph 6 &etc speak of, but this does not negate the obligation of those who know it to be true to follow in the footsteps of our Champion—although He won the victory by crushing the serpent, while we only do occasional mop-up until all the enemies are put under His feet.
> 
> Still, it does sound like you have a healthy approach to godliness, and steering clear of dark stuff.



Hi Steve, yes, the Biblical accounts "do speak of personal and "intimate" encounters with the devil and his subordinate devils... "; but in my understanding, those are in the gospels and Acts and are narrative and descriptive. If they're to be prescriptive for us, then so must be the accounts of other mighty wonders done, including healings, raising people from the dead, etc. Again, I have to disagree that "the verbs "resist", "wrestle", and "withstand" in the Epistles are speaking of things we are called to do in any way other than by use of the normal means (which are powerful and effective) God has given all Christians and the church to use (which we surely don't use as we ought).






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RamistThomist

Jeri Tanner said:


> If they're to be prescriptive for us, then so must be the accounts of other mighty wonders done, including healings, raising people from the dead, etc.



On one hand, they aren't prescriptive in the sense of "ye must do this to be saved, yea." But Jesus did say "Greater things than these."


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## MW

ReformedReidian said:


> On one hand, they aren't prescriptive in the sense of "ye must do this to be saved, yea." But Jesus did say "Greater things than these."



George Hutcheson: "As for those believers who are to do these and greater works, whatever may be said, in a sound sense, of every believer's doing great things, and overcoming the world through faith in him, yet the parallel holds clearer to restrict it to the apostles and others in the primitive times, who were endued with extraordinary power, and sent abroad to preach the gospel."


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## Jeri Tanner

ReformedReidian said:


> Jeri Tanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> If they're to be prescriptive for us, then so must be the accounts of other mighty wonders done, including healings, raising people from the dead, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On one hand, they aren't prescriptive in the sense of "ye must do this to be saved, yea." But Jesus did say "Greater things than these."
Click to expand...


They aren't prescriptive at all (I.e. they're not meant to prescribe for us how to deal with demons). Those narrative texts are teaching something, yes, but what they are teaching is something true and wonderful about the Son and what he came to do (and that he did it!)


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## RamistThomist

Jeri Tanner said:


> ReformedReidian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jeri Tanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> If they're to be prescriptive for us, then so must be the accounts of other mighty wonders done, including healings, raising people from the dead, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On one hand, they aren't prescriptive in the sense of "ye must do this to be saved, yea." But Jesus did say "Greater things than these."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They aren't prescriptive at all (I.e. they're not meant to prescribe for us how to deal with demons). Those narrative texts are teaching something, yes, but what they are teaching is something true and wonderful about the Son and what he came to do (and that he did it!)
Click to expand...


I didn't say they were prescriptive.


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## earl40

ReformedReidian said:


> Jeri Tanner said:
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> ReformedReidian said:
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> Jeri Tanner said:
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> 
> If they're to be prescriptive for us, then so must be the accounts of other mighty wonders done, including healings, raising people from the dead, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On one hand, they aren't prescriptive in the sense of "ye must do this to be saved, yea." But Jesus did say "Greater things than these."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They aren't prescriptive at all (I.e. they're not meant to prescribe for us how to deal with demons). Those narrative texts are teaching something, yes, but what they are teaching is something true and wonderful about the Son and what he came to do (and that he did it!)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I didn't say they were prescriptive.
Click to expand...


The problem is many assume that a fallen angel somehow is controlling a person like a ventriloquist controls a dummy, and that for any person to fight against that fallen angel one must somehow cast out that fallen angel out of a person.

I say this in that I do realize the VAST majority of Christians believe that a "demon" or fallen angel can indeed do what I described above. I have been thinking about this for a while, and if we _in our time_ can replace the word "lunatic" or a "crazy" person in the narratives about people being possessed by a demon a lot of confusion would be averted on this subject.


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## RamistThomist

earl40 said:


> ReformedReidian said:
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> Jeri Tanner said:
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> ReformedReidian said:
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> 
> 
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> Jeri Tanner said:
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> 
> 
> If they're to be prescriptive for us, then so must be the accounts of other mighty wonders done, including healings, raising people from the dead, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On one hand, they aren't prescriptive in the sense of "ye must do this to be saved, yea." But Jesus did say "Greater things than these."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They aren't prescriptive at all (I.e. they're not meant to prescribe for us how to deal with demons). Those narrative texts are teaching something, yes, but what they are teaching is something true and wonderful about the Son and what he came to do (and that he did it!)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I didn't say they were prescriptive.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The problem is many assume that a fallen angel somehow is controlling a person like a ventriloquist controls a dummy, and that for any person to fight against that fallen angel one must somehow cast out that fallen angel out of a person.
Click to expand...


Yeah, that's wrong in most cases. This is where movies and Hollywood have influenced a lot of Christians. Most deliverance ministries actually reject the automoton view.

Of course, sometimes that is true (like in deeper occult cases, remote viewing, MK-Ultra, and other CIA projects).


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## Jeri Tanner

earl40 said:


> I have been thinking about this for a while, and if we _in our time_ can replace the word "lunatic" or a "crazy" person in the narratives about people being possessed by a demon a lot of confusion would be averted on this subject.



But wait, how does this view fit with the fact that the demons spoke, with knowledge of who Christ, and Paul, were; and that the Lord cast them out of the demoniac and sent them into a herd of pigs, which then rushed to their deaths?


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## lynnie

It really bothers me to see the clear and obvious meaning of a NT text labeled as some sort of accommodating language for the less informed people of that day. If a canonical inerrant passage called it a demon, we have no right to call it epilepsy....or call other references to demons an emotional problem or chemical problem or mental illness. You just can't redefine the word demon like that. 

It is one thing to say it can't happen to Christians today, or Jesus and the apostles put an end to it, or we are not called to deal with it the way they did. At least you are not denying the clear meaning of those passages. It is another to claim that demons- as they were clearly understood to be in scripture (evil beings either inside or tormenting humans...or pigs for that matter)are not really that, it was just less informed less scientific thought back then. 

This is the type of approach that rejects creation and biblical morality. We are so much more advanced now, that we know gay is OK and mankind evolved from primates. I think there is a dangerous mentality in some posts on this thread.


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## Pergamum

Study Papers of the Reformed Presbyterian Church, Evangelical Synod (1965 to 1982): 153rd General Synod MINUTES, MAY 30, 1975, pp. 197-214. "STUDY COMMITTEE ON "DEMONIC ACTIVITY"

http://pcahistory.org/findingaids/rpces/docsynod/165.html



> Though there are few explicit references to occult activity in the New Testament, where it is mentioned, particularly the references to sorcery, false prophets, and lying wonders, it supports what has already been deduced from the Old Testament. In Matthew 24:25 (cf. Mark 13:22), Christ stated that in the future false christs and prophets will appear who will even threaten to deceive the elect of God with their great signs (sameia, cf. John 20:31) and wonders. In Revelation 19:20, we note that these false prophets through their "sameia" deceived those men who followed the Anti-Christ. In Revelation 16:14, it is implied that the source of these false prophets' power is the "spirit of demons." In Paul's reference to the Anti-Christ in II Thessalonians 2:7-10, he made it very clear that there will be occult activities accompanying him, and that such activities have their source in Satan and deceive unrighteous men because they do not receive the love of the truth which leads to salvation.






> Thus, the only passage which gives an indication that the ability to cast out demons is a continuing ministry in the church is Mark 16:17, plus evidence which can be drawn implicitly from passages such as Matthew 28:18-20 and John 14:12.
> 
> Christ promised his powerful presence with His people in the world, and therefore, as He dwells in us by His Spirit He will do great works through us. Historically, there is much evidence to confirm that Christians still have this ability and can exercise it. However, it should only be used when a situation has been very clearly confirmed as "demonization" in consultation with spiritually competent medical and psychological authorities, if possible. When it is used, the Scriptures teach that there is a need for much prayer, and a demon is only expelled when it is commanded in the name and power of Jesus Christ to leave the individual.





> Kittel makes this clear:
> 
> It should be notes that in the New Testament not all sicknesses are attributed to demons. . . . Nevertheless, it may be said that the existence of sickness in the world belongs to the character of the age of which Satan is prince. . . . Thus while not all sicknesses are the work of demons, they may all be seen as the work of Satan. [12] (Luke 13:10-16)


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## Pergamum

Athanasius, in his _On the Incarnation_, seemed to think that demonic activity was vanquished and it receded as the gospel was spread.



> Who, then, is this Christ and how great is He, Who by His Name and presence overshadows and confounds all things on every side, Who alone is strong against all and has filled the whole world with His teaching? Let the Greeks tell us, who mock at Him without stint or shame. If He is a man, how is it that one man has proved stronger than all those whom they themselves regard as gods, and by His own power has shown them to be nothing? If they call Him a magician, how is it that by a magician all magic is destroyed, instead of being rendered strong? Had He conquered certain magicians or proved Himself superior to one of them only, they might reasonably think that He excelled the rest only by His greater skill. But the fact is that His cross has vanquished all magic entirely and has conquered the very name of it.


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## RamistThomist

Pergamum said:


> Athanasius, in his _On the Incarnation_, seemed to think that demonic activity was vanquished and it receded as the gospel was spread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who, then, is this Christ and how great is He, Who by His Name and presence overshadows and confounds all things on every side, Who alone is strong against all and has filled the whole world with His teaching? Let the Greeks tell us, who mock at Him without stint or shame. If He is a man, how is it that one man has proved stronger than all those whom they themselves regard as gods, and by His own power has shown them to be nothing? If they call Him a magician, how is it that by a magician all magic is destroyed, instead of being rendered strong? Had He conquered certain magicians or proved Himself superior to one of them only, they might reasonably think that He excelled the rest only by His greater skill. But the fact is that His cross has vanquished all magic entirely and has conquered the very name of it.
Click to expand...


Sort of. Athanasius's quote doesn't mean demonic activity has ceased. Remember, he wrote a biography of his mentor, St Anthony, where Anthony fought demons every day.


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## Pergamum

ReformedReidian said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Athanasius, in his _On the Incarnation_, seemed to think that demonic activity was vanquished and it receded as the gospel was spread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who, then, is this Christ and how great is He, Who by His Name and presence overshadows and confounds all things on every side, Who alone is strong against all and has filled the whole world with His teaching? Let the Greeks tell us, who mock at Him without stint or shame. If He is a man, how is it that one man has proved stronger than all those whom they themselves regard as gods, and by His own power has shown them to be nothing? If they call Him a magician, how is it that by a magician all magic is destroyed, instead of being rendered strong? Had He conquered certain magicians or proved Himself superior to one of them only, they might reasonably think that He excelled the rest only by His greater skill. But the fact is that His cross has vanquished all magic entirely and has conquered the very name of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sort of. Athanasius's quote doesn't mean demonic activity has ceased. Remember, he wrote a biography of his mentor, St Anthony, where Anthony fought demons every day.
Click to expand...


He means that activity ceases or retreats where the light spreads. As Christians are successful in that warfare, the devil retreats. And everywhere the Gospel is preached, we see the devil being vanquished and fleeing.

Did I read him right on that?


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## earl40

Jeri Tanner said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have been thinking about this for a while, and if we _in our time_ can replace the word "lunatic" or a "crazy" person in the narratives about people being possessed by a demon a lot of confusion would be averted on this subject.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But wait, how does this view fit with the fact that the demons spoke, with knowledge of who Christ, and Paul, were; and that the Lord cast them out of the demoniac and sent them into a herd of pigs, which then rushed to their deaths?
Click to expand...


The "demons" speaking were the "human lunatics" for starters, and I would have no problem with Jesus accommodating to the wishes of the "crazy" person to have the pigs jump off a cliff as an object lesson of how horrible mental and physical disease's are.


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## RamistThomist

earl40 said:


> Jeri Tanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have been thinking about this for a while, and if we _in our time_ can replace the word "lunatic" or a "crazy" person in the narratives about people being possessed by a demon a lot of confusion would be averted on this subject.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But wait, how does this view fit with the fact that the demons spoke, with knowledge of who Christ, and Paul, were; and that the Lord cast them out of the demoniac and sent them into a herd of pigs, which then rushed to their deaths?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The "demons" speaking were the "human lunatics" for starters, and I would have no problem with Jesus accommodating to the wishes of the "crazy" person to have the pigs jump off a cliff as an object lesson of how horrible mental and physical disease's are.
Click to expand...


How do lunatics like the girl in Acts 16 give accurate knowledge of cases she can't possibly know? The examples throughout church history are too numerous.


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## RamistThomist

Pergamum said:


> ReformedReidian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Athanasius, in his _On the Incarnation_, seemed to think that demonic activity was vanquished and it receded as the gospel was spread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who, then, is this Christ and how great is He, Who by His Name and presence overshadows and confounds all things on every side, Who alone is strong against all and has filled the whole world with His teaching? Let the Greeks tell us, who mock at Him without stint or shame. If He is a man, how is it that one man has proved stronger than all those whom they themselves regard as gods, and by His own power has shown them to be nothing? If they call Him a magician, how is it that by a magician all magic is destroyed, instead of being rendered strong? Had He conquered certain magicians or proved Himself superior to one of them only, they might reasonably think that He excelled the rest only by His greater skill. But the fact is that His cross has vanquished all magic entirely and has conquered the very name of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sort of. Athanasius's quote doesn't mean demonic activity has ceased. Remember, he wrote a biography of his mentor, St Anthony, where Anthony fought demons every day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> He means that activity ceases or retreats where the light spreads. As Christians are successful in that warfare, the devil retreats. And everywhere the Gospel is preached, we see the devil being vanquished and fleeing.
> 
> Did I read him right on that?
Click to expand...


"retreats" and "ceases" are two very different words. And the flip side holds as well. As countries embrace paganism (like erecting statues of Baphomet in the City square) then darkness will advance.


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## earl40

ReformedReidian said:


> earl40 said:
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> 
> Jeri Tanner said:
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> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have been thinking about this for a while, and if we _in our time_ can replace the word "lunatic" or a "crazy" person in the narratives about people being possessed by a demon a lot of confusion would be averted on this subject.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But wait, how does this view fit with the fact that the demons spoke, with knowledge of who Christ, and Paul, were; and that the Lord cast them out of the demoniac and sent them into a herd of pigs, which then rushed to their deaths?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The "demons" speaking were the "human lunatics" for starters, and I would have no problem with Jesus accommodating to the wishes of the "crazy" person to have the pigs jump off a cliff as an object lesson of how horrible mental and physical disease's are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How do lunatics like the girl in Acts 16 give accurate knowledge of cases she can't possibly know? The examples throughout church history are too numerous.
Click to expand...


You are assuming the girl in Acts 16 is not like the modern Jean Dixon who made a LOT of money. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeane_Dixon


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## RamistThomist

earl40 said:


> ReformedReidian said:
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> earl40 said:
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> Jeri Tanner said:
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> earl40 said:
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> 
> 
> I have been thinking about this for a while, and if we _in our time_ can replace the word "lunatic" or a "crazy" person in the narratives about people being possessed by a demon a lot of confusion would be averted on this subject.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But wait, how does this view fit with the fact that the demons spoke, with knowledge of who Christ, and Paul, were; and that the Lord cast them out of the demoniac and sent them into a herd of pigs, which then rushed to their deaths?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The "demons" speaking were the "human lunatics" for starters, and I would have no problem with Jesus accommodating to the wishes of the "crazy" person to have the pigs jump off a cliff as an object lesson of how horrible mental and physical disease's are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How do lunatics like the girl in Acts 16 give accurate knowledge of cases she can't possibly know? The examples throughout church history are too numerous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are assuming the girl in Acts 16 is not like the modern Jean Dixon who made a LOT of money.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeane_Dixon
Click to expand...


I'm simply reporting what the Bible said. Paul assumed this girl had knowledge she couldn't have had and it was caused by a demon.


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## Jeri Tanner

I went back to the 2014 thread linked to earlier by Rev. Winzer- http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php/84279-Ghosts-spirits-demons

Reading carefully, trying to think it through, taking the advice of the moderator in that thread to be courteous, to ask questions, to listen to each other, I begin to understand some of the issues brought up by Rev. Winzer and Earl. Their views certainly do include the view that Satan was and is active and very much going about his work of deceiving. 

I've had the experience before of being compelled to review some of my own deep-seated assumptions concerning what Scripture teaches, and being heartily unwilling to do so, even angry about it. But when the challenge comes from a respected source, it has always been profitable to do so. I would encourage going back and reading that thread and taking some time to chew through and consider some of the points made there. They are worth doing so. 

I'm not sure what I think about some of the aspects of the use of accommodation in the "exorcism" texts in the Gospels and Acts. For instance, some of us don't want to use accommodation in the account of the sun standing still in Joshua. 






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jeri Tanner

ReformedReidian said:


> earl40 said:
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> ReformedReidian said:
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> earl40 said:
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> Jeri Tanner said:
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> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have been thinking about this for a while, and if we _in our time_ can replace the word "lunatic" or a "crazy" person in the narratives about people being possessed by a demon a lot of confusion would be averted on this subject.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But wait, how does this view fit with the fact that the demons spoke, with knowledge of who Christ, and Paul, were; and that the Lord cast them out of the demoniac and sent them into a herd of pigs, which then rushed to their deaths?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The "demons" speaking were the "human lunatics" for starters, and I would have no problem with Jesus accommodating to the wishes of the "crazy" person to have the pigs jump off a cliff as an object lesson of how horrible mental and physical disease's are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How do lunatics like the girl in Acts 16 give accurate knowledge of cases she can't possibly know? The examples throughout church history are too numerous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are assuming the girl in Acts 16 is not like the modern Jean Dixon who made a LOT of money.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeane_Dixon
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm simply reporting what the Bible said. Paul assumed this girl had knowledge she couldn't have had and it was caused by a demon.
Click to expand...


Jacob, I don't see from the actual text where Paul assumes that she has knowledge she couldn't have otherwise had; the text only says that after several days of her following them around he was "grieved" (KJV; NASB "annoyed") and dealt with it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RamistThomist

Jeri Tanner said:


> ReformedReidian said:
> 
> 
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> earl40 said:
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> ReformedReidian said:
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> earl40 said:
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> Jeri Tanner said:
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> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have been thinking about this for a while, and if we _in our time_ can replace the word "lunatic" or a "crazy" person in the narratives about people being possessed by a demon a lot of confusion would be averted on this subject.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But wait, how does this view fit with the fact that the demons spoke, with knowledge of who Christ, and Paul, were; and that the Lord cast them out of the demoniac and sent them into a herd of pigs, which then rushed to their deaths?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The "demons" speaking were the "human lunatics" for starters, and I would have no problem with Jesus accommodating to the wishes of the "crazy" person to have the pigs jump off a cliff as an object lesson of how horrible mental and physical disease's are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How do lunatics like the girl in Acts 16 give accurate knowledge of cases she can't possibly know? The examples throughout church history are too numerous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are assuming the girl in Acts 16 is not like the modern Jean Dixon who made a LOT of money.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeane_Dixon
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm simply reporting what the Bible said. Paul assumed this girl had knowledge she couldn't have had and it was caused by a demon.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Jacob, I don't see from the actual text where Paul assumes that she has knowledge she couldn't have otherwise had; the text only says that after several days of her following them around he was "grieved" (KJV; NASB "annoyed") and dealt with it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


Fair enough. I might have been reading modern, documented experiences into Paul's narrative. Though of course, the demoniacs in the gospel knew Jesus was the Holy One of God.


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## RamistThomist

Once you begin saying "Something is cultural accommodation," then it becomes an acid-drip. Why stop? Why not say our understanding of male-to-male sexuality has improved since Paul's day?


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## RamistThomist

https://www.closertotruth.com/series/do-angels-and-demons-exist

Click on the talk by Moreland


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## Jeri Tanner

I think I know what Moreland will have to say. Probably all points of view have been exhausted in this thread! That because "principalities... powers... rulers of the darkness of this world...spiritual wickedness in high places..." all exist, it doesn't follow that we are called by Scripture to deal with them in the ways that are widely believed. Sure, we encounter much darkness in this world that is of the evil one and many are obviously held captive by the devil to do his will. But beyond that, whatever is happening in the unseen, spiritual world is God's business, not ours, except as Paul lifts the curtain a little in a few texts to help us in realizing that much is at stake and to keep at the means of grace, including our fervent prayers, often for specific situations and people. We keep on doing all that Christ has commanded us to do, and having done all, to stand. This is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith.


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## RamistThomist

Jeri Tanner said:


> I think I know what Moreland will have to say. Probably all points of view have been exhausted in this thread! That because "principalities... powers... rulers of the darkness of this world...spiritual wickedness in high places..." all exist, it doesn't follow that we are called by Scripture to deal with them in the ways that are widely believed. Sure, we encounter much darkness in this world that is of the evil one and many are obviously held captive by the devil to do his will. But beyond that, whatever is happening in the unseen, spiritual world is God's business, not ours, except as Paul lifts the curtain a little in a few texts to help us in realizing that much is at stake and to keep at the means of grace, including our fervent prayers, often for specific situations and people. We keep on doing all that Christ has commanded us to do, and having done all, to stand. This is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith.



And no one will disagree with most of that. And anyway, that's not what Moreland's argument was about. But saying it is "God's business" is simply dodging the issue. Everything in the universe is "God's business," so therefore we shouldn't do anything about anything. But that's not how life works. Moreland, as well as the entirety of the Christian tradition, notes that the Gospels and Acts see Jesus and the disciples engaged in deliverance ministries. 
Second premise: This appears to work. 
3rd Premise: People are delivered and receive rest and release.
Fourth premise: In the course of such ministries, Moreland et al have come across dark intelligences and personalities logically distinct from the entity at hand (thus ruling out any kind of psychobabble).
----------------
Conclusion 1 (C1) This activity happens today.


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## MW

There is no cultural accommodation in the Gospels concerning "demons." In the Gospels we see the kingdom of heaven penetrating the present order and manifesting the power of God over all that was considered to be "divine." In that revelation we see "demons" showing their subjection to the word of Christ, the anointed King. These "demons" are the hero-gods whom the nations served in their blindness as a part of the just judgment of God. These "gods" were understood to be wicked by the Jews. Any activity or power which these so-called "gods" demonstrated was attributed to an "unclean spirit," i.e., a wicked disembodied soul. At no point do we find our Lord or the Gospel penmen accommodating themselves to this belief. They attribute the working entirely to Satan. Our Lord specifically stated that He cast out "Satan," Matt. 12:25-30, the strong man being bound in order that his house might be spoilt. The apostle Peter explicitly stated, as a part of his summary account of the gospel, that Christ, as anointed Lord, "went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil [diabolos]; for God was with him," Acts 10:38. There was no accommodation to a false belief. They spoke plainly so as to identify the real agent behind this activity.


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## Jeri Tanner

MW said:


> There is no cultural accommodation in the Gospels concerning "demons." In the Gospels we see the kingdom of heaven penetrating the present order and manifesting the power of God over all that was considered to be "divine." In that revelation we see "demons" showing their subjection to the word of Christ, the anointed King. These "demons" are the hero-gods whom the nations served in their blindness as a part of the just judgment of God. These "gods" were understood to be wicked by the Jews. Any activity or power which these so-called "gods" demonstrated was attributed to an "unclean spirit," i.e., a wicked disembodied soul. At no point do we find our Lord or the Gospel penmen accommodating themselves to this belief. They attribute the working entirely to Satan. Our Lord specifically stated that He cast out "Satan," Matt. 12:25-30, the strong man being bound in order that his house might be spoilt. The apostle Peter explicitly stated, as a part of his summary account of the gospel, that Christ, as anointed Lord, "went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil [diabolos]; for God was with him," Acts 10:38. There was no accommodation to a false belief. They spoke plainly so as to identify the real agent behind this activity.



This is the accommodation mentioned in the 2014 thread: "When it is accepted that "demons" are associated with fallen angels (devils), the ideas of "demon possession" and "casting out demons" are understood to be an accommodation to the way the people thought about these things. The Gospels must be understood to be speaking by way of accommodation. Otherwise one will be led to adopt all kinds of crude and ridiculous notions." Are you saying that the Lord and the disciples accommodated to the beliefs of the people the narratives tell us about, but that in the writings there is no accommodation to their beliefs?


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## MW

Jeri Tanner said:


> This is the accommodation mentioned in the 2014 thread: "When it is accepted that "demons" are associated with fallen angels (devils), the ideas of "demon possession" and "casting out demons" are understood to be an accommodation to the way the people thought about these things. The Gospels must be understood to be speaking by way of accommodation. Otherwise one will be led to adopt all kinds of crude and ridiculous notions." Are you saying that the Lord and the disciples accommodated to the beliefs of the people in the narratives, but that in the writings there is no accommodation to their beliefs?



These demons are not demons in the realistic sense of that term. Christ and the apostles have given clearer revelation. We are reading the narratives in light of the clearer revelation, though we also recognise a different view was also present. In that sense there is an accommodation, but it is not cultural; it is counter-cultural. In no sense did Christ and His apostles simply function according to the cultural construct of the times. They corrected the view of the times, and we are obliged to interpret the phenomenon according to the correct view.


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## Jeri Tanner

MW said:


> Jeri Tanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is the accommodation mentioned in the 2014 thread: "When it is accepted that "demons" are associated with fallen angels (devils), the ideas of "demon possession" and "casting out demons" are understood to be an accommodation to the way the people thought about these things. The Gospels must be understood to be speaking by way of accommodation. Otherwise one will be led to adopt all kinds of crude and ridiculous notions." Are you saying that the Lord and the disciples accommodated to the beliefs of the people in the narratives, but that in the writings there is no accommodation to their beliefs?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These demons are not demons in the realistic sense of that term. Christ and the apostles have given clearer revelation. We are reading the narratives in light of the clearer revelation, though we also recognise a different view was also present. In that sense there is an accommodation, but it is not cultural; it is counter-cultural. In no sense did Christ and His apostles simply function according to the cultural construct of the times. They corrected the view of the times, and we are obliged to interpret the phenomenon according to the correct view.
Click to expand...


Thanks, Reverend Winzer. I'll be reading the Gospels and Acts with this in mind and will give it thought. Can you recommend any resources for learning more about this?


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## PuritanCovenanter

ReformedReidian said:


> Jeri Tanner said:
> 
> 
> 
> If they're to be prescriptive for us, then so must be the accounts of other mighty wonders done, including healings, raising people from the dead, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On one hand, they aren't prescriptive in the sense of "ye must do this to be saved, yea." But Jesus did say "Greater things than these."
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I always understood the Greater Things to be leading others to be reconciled to God which is greater than earthly miracles. One is everlasting and the physical healing only temporal.


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## MW

Jeri Tanner said:


> Can you recommend any resources for learning more about this?



The work by Leahy has already been mentioned. The greatest assistance I found came in the way of dictionary and encyclopedia entries under "demons," especially the Imperial, Hastings, and ISBE. These bring an historic awareness to the subject which moderns tend to neglect. I also found it helpful to go through the Gospels where "demons" are mentioned, and to note the connections and characteristics. It is important to observe that the "demon" is connected with physical and emotional evil, and that the idea of moral evil is not present. Whereas the moral connection seems to be the most pronounced in continuationist views. But Matthew 12 is the key passage, along with 1 Cor. 8-10. Here the phenomenon is tied to the worship of false gods, and a distinct monotheistic interpretation comes into prominence, which opens the door for understanding the demonic activity in terms of the opponent of monotheism, Satan.


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## Jeri Tanner

Thanks, much to think about!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PuritanCovenanter

Reverend Winzer, 
Do you see any identifying traits and prescriptions in Jude chapter 1? A lot of people make identifications and applications based upon that text. And from what I note from that passage the ordinary means of Grace are what we are to focus on. 

I also have a question about the word spirits. What is implied by the word as they were preached to and they are to be recognized in false prophets?


> 1Pe_3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
> 
> 1Jn_4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.


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## MW

PuritanCovenanter said:


> Do you see any identifying traits and prescriptions in Jude chapter 1? A lot of people make identifications and applications based upon that text. And from what I note from that passage the ordinary means of Grace are what we are to focus on.



Randy, do you have a specific verse in mind? Verse 6 perhaps? "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." This teaches that fallen angles are judicially bound by God. It means at the least that fallen angels are not floating around doing whatever pleases them. What this means in terms of their involvement in human affairs is difficult to say, but I recognise that God providentially employs them as instruments of justice in the same way that He uses the sins of men in the judgment of sinners.

Scripture teaches that Christ has spoiled principalities and powers, Col. 2, and gives this as a reason against "voluntary humility and worshipping of angels." This satisfies me that I should reject any teaching which requires me to intrude into those things which I have not seen, including the idea that we are to confront "demons." But my understanding is that even "demons" are nothing in the sense that pagans hold to them, as hero-gods. The dead have been judged and have gone to their own place; and they do not influence human life apart from the false teaching which is spread concerning them.



PuritanCovenanter said:


> I also have a question about the word spirits. What is implied by the word as they were preached to and they are to be recognized in false prophets?
> 
> 
> 
> 1Pe_3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
> 
> 1Jn_4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Click to expand...


I interpret the spirits in 1 Peter 3:9 to be the human beings that lived at the time of Noah; and I consider the preaching to have been done through the instrumentality of Noah at that time.

1 John 4:1 is debated. I incline to the view that says a "spirit" is a doctrine purported to be given by inspiration of the Spirit.


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