# Church furniture and RPW



## Coram Deo (Apr 18, 2008)

*Disclaimer: I am only pondering things, please do not think I am leaning this way. Just was read some interesting facts on the Patristic Era in some worship books..*



So, Why do we have seating (Pews), and Pulpits? We know that a Table is required for the Supper and a Font would be required for Baptism But why do we thing that seatings and pulpits are things indifferent?

Are we so sure?

What is interesting is that the scriptures puts a high reverence on the word of God and that everyone stood while reading of the word or singing of the word (Psalms). Kneeling, standing, and bowing were positions of prayer during corporate worship. They stood during the reading and singing of God's Word as a symbol and sign of reverence.

Another interesting factoid is that sitting and seating did not begin in the churches until the fourteenth Century. This is pretty late in the game.

"We should also note that standing throughout worship (which was 3 hours long in the early church) was the traditional practice in the early church period and for centuries afterward. The Western church introduced pews only in the fourteenth century - quite a late development. The Eastern church never introduced pews into Eastern church buildings. People who were tired during early church worship could sit around the edges of the building ("the weak go to the walls")" Worship through the Ages by Nick Needham

Sermons were preached without a pulpit for centuries and people stood during the worship service.

So besides the Lord's Table for the Eucharist and the Font for Baptism are we sure that other church furniture are "Things Indifferent". In the Old Testament people stood for the Reading of the Law and for instruction by the Prophets.

These are all interesting facts

The only Pragmatic reasoning I can think of is "Where do we place the Psalters for the people" without Pews..  

What are your thoughts?


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## VictorBravo (Apr 18, 2008)

Well it seems pretty clear that sitting occurred in early church practice. 

One guy sat in a window, athough he fell out. Act 20:9 

And a church was reproved, not for sitting, but for allowing the rich to have the best seats while requiring the poor to either stand or sit in a lowly place. James 2:3


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## Coram Deo (Apr 18, 2008)

Actually the poor is being told to sit at his footstool.... But this passage is talking about personal favoritism then about sitting. 

And the guy in the windows could have been one of those tired or weak that sat around the walls of the church like I quoted from Needham. 

Neither case talked about chairs/pews and sitting either while Reading of the Word or Singing of the Word or Praying.

And Early Records from Justin of Martyr and others up to the fourteenth century clearly show that churches had no seating.. Even the Eastern Churches still do not have them today...





victorbravo said:


> Well it seems pretty clear that sitting occurred in early church practice.
> 
> One guy sat in a window, athough he fell out. Act 20:9
> 
> And a church was reproved, not for sitting, but for allowing the rich to have the best seats while requiring the poor to either stand or sit in a lowly place. James 2:3


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## toddpedlar (Apr 18, 2008)

Given the fact that there are no commandments about sitting or not sitting, but only incidental narrative passages (that comport with the practice of the time with other itinerant teachers and wise men) I see no reason to go one way or the other. Don't confuse narrative with commandment. 

Frankly, I think a baptismal font is also a circumstance, as is any sort of table for the Lord's supper. We aren't commanded to have either kind of furniture.


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## Coram Deo (Apr 18, 2008)

But the RPW is about only doing and having what is commanded. Where the word is silent (Pews, Seating, etc) we don't introduce them. Narratives play an important role in figuring out what is in worship. Playing the other side here for a minute, we do not have commands to sit and by example people stood in worship so by inference we stand..

Again, I am not saying I am leaning this way but I do believe posture to play an important role. 

Plus I believe I remember that the Scottish Church would not allow sitting (written in their church's documents) for the Reading of the Word for the same reasons I gave.

Circumstance are common to every human. We can not see to read without light so we must have light to see and prudence will determine what kind of light to use.

Otherwise, lets deck out our churches in all kinds of art and artistic designs, to the point we get back to the gothic gargoyles and iron works in the churches...  We no command regarding gargoyles or complex iron working art.




toddpedlar said:


> Given the fact that there are no commandments about sitting or not sitting, but only incidental narrative passages (that comport with the practice of the time with other itinerant teachers and wise men) I see no reason to go one way or the other. Don't confuse narrative with commandment.
> 
> Frankly, I think a baptismal font is also a circumstance, as is any sort of table for the Lord's supper. We aren't commanded to have either kind of furniture.


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## AV1611 (Apr 18, 2008)

The seating is an unregulated circumstance of worship.


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## Coram Deo (Apr 18, 2008)

Ah, But where is your biblical Proof for that assertion and not just the confession.. If Seating was not installed in churches for 1400 years in the West and never in the East there must of been a reason...





AV1611 said:


> The seating is an unregulated circumstance of worship.


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## toddpedlar (Apr 18, 2008)

Coram Deo said:


> Ah, But where is your biblical Proof for that assertion and not just the confession.. If Seating was not installed in churches for 1400 years in the West and never in the East there must of been a reason...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why do you assume there must have been a reason? I gather because you believe that it must be regulated somehow. Where is your proof for that assertion?


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## toddpedlar (Apr 18, 2008)

Coram Deo said:


> But the RPW is about only doing and having what is commanded. Where the word is silent (Pews, Seating, etc) we don't introduce them. Narratives play an important role in figuring out what is in worship. Playing the other side here for a minute, we do not have commands to sit and by example people stood in worship so by inference we stand..



But baptismal fonts are not commanded. Why did we introduce them? A table for the Lord's Supper is not commanded. Why did we introduce *them*? A pulpit is not commanded. Why did we introduce *them*? Carpeting in the church is not commanded. Why did we introduce that?

Don't you think you're grasping at the wind, Michael? This seems to be another relatively frivolous mental exercise.


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## AV1611 (Apr 18, 2008)

Coram Deo said:


> Ah, But where is your biblical Proof for that assertion and not just the confession..



Show me from Scripture where seating was an element of worship


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## VictorBravo (Apr 18, 2008)

AV1611 said:


> Coram Deo said:
> 
> 
> > Ah, But where is your biblical Proof for that assertion and not just the confession..
> ...



Here you go brother:

Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.


Obviously, from scripture, we need at least 24 chairs, not pews. Oh, and we need 24 elders too. The rest of the congregation hides under the chairs. 

Enough already.


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## fredtgreco (Apr 18, 2008)

toddpedlar said:


> Coram Deo said:
> 
> 
> > But the RPW is about only doing and having what is commanded. Where the word is silent (Pews, Seating, etc) we don't introduce them. Narratives play an important role in figuring out what is in worship. Playing the other side here for a minute, we do not have commands to sit and by example people stood in worship so by inference we stand..
> ...



Michael,

This thread is typical of your activities on the PB, especially the threads you start. It is frivolous, a near complete waste of time and strains at gnats. It is bad enough that you waste your own time on such nonsense, trying to show how "well-read" or "precise" you are, but you continually draw others astray, and (specifically in other threads) seek to bind the conscience of believers that you should not.

You should cease from this kind of unproductive, grant straining, useless mental exercise behavior. Instead, you should spend more time in prayer, memorizing Scripture, and supporting your family.

I would be ashamed of my ministry if it was marked by an emphasis on the kinds of questions and issues that you continually raise and ask.

I hope that a moderator closes this useless thread quickly, and that the issue is not revisited.


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## Coram Deo (Apr 18, 2008)

Nothing is grasping at straws.. We are called to be the Bereans and Test EVERYTHING........

If not.. Then there is really no point in having a Puritanboard for Iron Sharpen Iron and Discussion...

There is no such thing has a Frivolous Discussion when it comes to the Word of God and Heavenly things...

You might think that some of my threads are frivolous but I find them very educational.

And Personally, I said I was not leaning this way.. But questioning, testing and pondering.. Apparently the early church thought something to it. I do not believe it is grasping at wind to question and consider things outside of the box.

I do believe that posture is a part of element to worship and believe it to be important. So I will consider to ponder posture for prayer, for worship, etc...

Oh yeah, and we really do not need carpeting in churches.. 




toddpedlar said:


> Don't you think you're grasping at the wind, Michael? This seems to be another relatively frivolous mental exercise.


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## Coram Deo (Apr 18, 2008)

Maybe then I should just leave the puritanboard if that is the way it is felt....


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## Archlute (Apr 18, 2008)

Coram Deo said:


> Actually the poor is being told to sit at his footstool.... But this passage is talking about personal favoritism then about sitting.
> 
> And the guy in the windows could have been one of those tired or weak that sat around the walls of the church like I quoted from Needham.
> 
> ...



The rich man is still instructed to sit in the best place just preceding that, and you need not attempt to rule out that observation on the grounds that the passage is being used to teach impartiality. 

Frankly, I think that your literalism in reading both the Scriptures and the history of the Church is unhelpful, and that if you continued to follow the strained logic of your approach you would end up having to get rid of wall to wall carpeting, air conditioners, etc. none of which are mentioned in Scripture, and all of which are modern items that have been introduced into the life of the church. 

Stick to that which is important in the Christian's life and worship, and you will save yourself much regret in future years over time wasted in silly pursuits. I realize that you stated that you were only pondering, but it seem that your pondering is definitely leaning.

Also, just because the East didn't do something for "x" number of years really shouldn't persuade one of anything, since their understanding of Christian theology hasn't developed much either. That particular knowledge of the message of the Scriptures is much more important in the life of the church than circumstantial aspects of worship, and remember - they also still use icons...


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## Pilgrim (Apr 18, 2008)

Archlute said:


> Frankly, I think that your literalism in reading both the Scriptures and the history of the Church is unhelpful, and that if you continued to follow the strained logic of your approach you would end up having to get rid of wall to wall carpeting, air conditioners, etc. none of which are mentioned in Scripture, and all of which are modern items that have been introduced into the life of the church.
> 
> Stick to that which is important in the Christian's life and worship, and you will save yourself much regret in future years over time wasted in silly pursuits. I realize that you stated that you were only pondering, but it seem that your pondering is definitely leaning.


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