# Study for the Ladies and Young Ladies???



## LadyFlynt (Mar 8, 2006)

I'm posting this both here and in the Tea Parlour.

I have read the first several chapters of _Becoming a Woman Who Pleases God_ and have looked over the rest. The first several deal mostly with scripture, worldview, and attitudes...the other chapters start to move into pratical outworkings in the home.

I know we have a good mix of married ladies and young ladies that might one day be married. Even for those that may remain single, this is still a wonderful book. The book is co-authored by two ladies that are professors of home economics at The Master's College...one is single (I believe) and the other married with children.

If you are interested in going through this book with me in the Parlour, please let me know. I know we have discussed doing studies in the past and they didn't stick...but due to the area of the home, preparation for marriages, organization, etc...I thought this might be a good topical study.

This is the Amazon Editorial Review:
_
Book Description
There is an enormous amount of confusion and deception about what it means to be a woman. Even within the church, women are continually struggling to define their femininity. Pat Ennis and Lisa Tatlock tackle the difficult question of "What makes a godly woman?" with warmth, compassion, and directness in Becoming a Woman Who Pleases God. Readers will find themselves challenged to re-think their priorities, re-examine the position of the home, and re-work their definition of what it means to be a woman in whom God is well pleased.

About the Author
Lisa Tatlock is an associate professor of Home Economics at The Master's College in Santa Clarita, California. Lisa and her husband, Mark, live with their two young boys in California.

Pat Ennis is professor and establishing chairperson of the Department of Home Economics at The Master's College in Santa Clarita, California. Dr. Ennis has almost 30 years' experience integrating faith and learning into the home economics discipline. _

This is a portion of the back:

_Wise women live by God's timeless, unchanging standard. They want to know what He thinks. They do what He commands. The y love Him. They infuse their homes, their families, and their churches with care, dignity, and grace. According to educators and authors Pat Ennis and Lisa Tatlock, a wise and godly woman exhibits a number of world-enriching characteristics:

Virtue
Energy
Economy
Trustworthiness
Physical Fitness
Prudence
Unselfishness
Preparedness
Honorability
Lovability

Most importantly, though, they are God-Fearing. They understand God's expectations--as described in the Bible--and they follow them._

I only request that those participating aquire the book as it will require personal reading.

[Edited on 3-9-2006 by LadyFlynt]


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## ~~Susita~~ (Mar 10, 2006)

Sounds like a great book - I am most definitely interested. I'll see if I can pick it up soon.

Thank-you!


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## Puritanhead (Mar 10, 2006)

Vision Forum has a lot of good books to help women brush up on their _being submissive_ and _home-maker_ skills... I'll get em later when I actually need them.
:bigsmile:


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## Puritanhead (Mar 10, 2006)

_The Fruit Of Her Hands: Respect and the Christian Woman_ by Nancy Wilson... A book for a woman by a woman. Perhaps, it is comparable to her husband's books on the Christian family.


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## ~~Susita~~ (Mar 10, 2006)

http://www.graceandtruthbooks.com/listdetails.asp?ID=956&RP=/men/

http://www.graceandtruthbooks.com/listdetails.asp?ID=348&RP=/men/

  

[Edited on 3-10-2006 by ~~Susita~~]


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## Robin (Mar 10, 2006)

Virtue
Energy
Economy
Trustworthiness
Physical Fitness
Prudence
Unselfishness
Preparedness
Honorability
Lovability


With all appropriate respect, honor and charity, to you Colleen and my sisters in Christ....I am compelled to speak a Truth and add:

The list above has very little to do with the PRIMARY virtue of a Christian woman - which is to know, comprehend and defend the "word of Christ" - which is the doctrine of justification (as taught in the book of Romans.)

This understanding is of first importance because it is ONLY the Gospel that gives us the desire and ability to obey God's Law and progress in sanctification (referring to above, said list.)

I hope you gals won't think me harsh. I'm not angry or upset. I'm just pointing this out because I continually meet dear-hearts who either wait for their men to "take initiative" in learning the essentials of the Faith; or focus more upon law-keeping (a Christless yoke) than the Gospel, proper. These create an in-road for Satan into Christian homes via women's neglect and ignorance. (Personally, I am embarrassed and worried about this state of affairs, ladies!)

Yes, I acknowledge the need for women to reacquaint with and uphold hospitality and homemaking. Of course these are honorable.

Again, I say, the study of theology and most emphatically, the study of Justification is the one thing that will energize and assure sanctification.

Surprisingly, (as I have discovered, myself) once this is grounded, the rest follows.....without (I might add) countless, additional "how to" extra-Biblical materials.

Well-meant from a Titus 2 Woman - in Christ,


Robin 

PS. Read and enjoy this book -- but first, examine yourselves to see if you are up to speed on the doctrine of Justification - then, depend on that, to energize you. (Not to hi-jack Colleen's thread...but if you want to know more, we can begin another thread or you can U2U.)


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## LadyFlynt (Mar 10, 2006)

Robin,

This study was chosen for a reason. Justification is an area where there are men on this board and husbands/fathers that are better suited to study with (and personally I would prefer to study it with my husband, which I already have, than with a group of ladies...Just my humble opinion). I wanted to steer this in an area that is specifically dealing with women and as this has been an area (practical application) of discussion and questions as of late...and even some debate within the past year both here and elsewhere, especially given that the rest of the board is geared towards theological and doctrinal subjects such as justification. Given the fact that we have several YOUNG ladies and soon to be married ones, let alone there are those of us that were not raised with a traditional biblical view in this area causing struggle, I thought this would be a decent topical study.

I also want to note that a woman can have her doctrinal ducks in a row and NOT have everything fall into place. Heavens! Show me that woman, for she must already be perfect and without fault. Many of the areas listed ARE discussed in scripture (which the first half of the study focuses on), but are unfortunately neglected or treated subjectively. I have known women that know various areas of doctrine inside and out (such as justification) and yet have no concept or practice of graciousness or love (1 Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.)


[Edited on 3-11-2006 by LadyFlynt]


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## py3ak (Mar 10, 2006)

Robin, why do you include defending the word of Christ as part of the primary virtue of a woman?

I liked your reply Colleen.


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## Robin (Mar 11, 2006)

> _Originally posted by py3ak_
> Robin, why do you include defending the word of Christ as part of the primary virtue of a woman?



Gosh...maybe we should move this post? Briefly, begin by reading the Apostle's admonition carefully. (Of course, there's more that could be said....)

2 John 1 

Greeting
1The elder to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not only I, but also all who know the truth, 2because of the truth that abides in us and will be with us forever: 

3Grace, mercy, and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ the Father's Son, in truth and love. 

Walking in Truth and Love
4I rejoiced greatly to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as we were commanded by the Father. 5And now I ask you, dear lady--not as though I were writing you a new commandment, but the one we have had from the beginning--that we love one another. 6And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it. 7For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we[a] have worked for, but may win a full reward. 9Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, 11for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works. 

r.


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## Robin (Mar 11, 2006)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> Robin,
> 
> This study was chosen for a reason. Justification is an area where there are men on this board and husbands/fathers that are better suited to study with (and personally I would prefer to study it with my husband, which I already have, than with a group of ladies...Just my humble opinion). I wanted to steer this in an area that is specifically dealing with women and as this has been an area (practical application) of discussion and questions as of late...and even some debate within the past year both here and elsewhere, especially given that the rest of the board is geared towards theological and doctrinal subjects such as justification. Given the fact that we have several YOUNG ladies and soon to be married ones, let alone there are those of us that were not raised with a traditional biblical view in this area causing struggle, I thought this would be a decent topical study.
> ...



Colleen, you have some excellent points! It is indeed unfortunate that some Christians (men; women; Reformed and other) demonstrate a lack of emphathy or compassion in favor of "puffed up" knowledge. Scripture speaks to that, of course.

However, that is NOT what I point to. 

I really didn't mean to get off track with this...all I'm emphasizing is the deplorable anemia in what Scripture deems important. (Hasn't anyone noticed humanity never lacks in being "practical"?)

I'm also NOT glibbly saying Justification takes care of life's issues. However, I do assert that if (for example) a woman struggles with disrespect for her husband, she can only find the remedy and help for that in knowing deeply the knowledge of Christ. No "to do list" taught in extra-curricula, outside the safe counsel of her pastor and elders is to be considered.

I think Scripture (church order) bears this out. ?? I stand here.

I also think it a risk for women to independantly "tour" the book shelves outside the care and counsel of their husbands, pastor and elders.

Yes, there will always be teachers "out there" we refer to. (sigh)

Since Scripture (not our experience) is the authority, it should be noted that "women's studies" for women are not emphasized in it. (A good example is 1 Peter 3's entire chapter being neglected in favor of the "to do's".) Rather, Scripture's emphasis portrays women who are devoted to the teachings of Christ (theology) as they live out godly lives. 

To be frank, I think Christian women frequently fall prey to the sin of Eve (enticed by continual "new & better" ways of doing XYZ) and not resting IN Christ - the Author and Finisher of our faith. Doesn't resting mean rest? --- utterly on Christ. What does that look like? 

As an older woman, walking with Christ 30 years, these are some of my musings. My heart longs to see and hear more women who love the teachings of Christ who can encourage us with their faithfulness to His Word. (Btw... NO I'm not suggesting any woman teach men in the church, Etc.)

Thanks for allowing me to speak my mind.

In Christ,

r.

[Edited on 3-11-2006 by Robin]


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## Robin (Mar 11, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Puritanhead_
> _The Fruit Of Her Hands: Respect and the Christian Woman_ by Nancy Wilson... A book for a woman by a woman. Perhaps, it is comparable to her husband's books on the Christian family.



Not that good knowledge on raising a family can't be had here....but, the Wilson's confession is that "faith must be faithful." (FV) This basically means we should all become functional Roman Catholics.

I know Nancy's teachings well. (a very nice lady, btw) Heavy on Law, Law, Law... The Law is powerful, indeed. Without the Gospel attached to it, it drives the Christian to despair.

Beware.....

r.


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## py3ak (Mar 11, 2006)

Robin, defend is not the word I would have chosen to characterize John's instructions in 2 John. She is to be on guard against false teaching; she is not to receive them (both not to encourage them and not to put herself in the way of being misled). But defend seems to connote more than that: arguing with them, refuting them, etc. If situations come up and a woman is capable of doing that, I don't have an issue. But I don't believe that it is a charge that can be laid upon all women regardless of gifts.


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## Robin (Mar 11, 2006)

> _Originally posted by py3ak_
> Robin, defend is not the word I would have chosen to characterize John's instructions in 2 John. She is to be on guard against false teaching; she is not to receive them (both not to encourage them and not to put herself in the way of being misled). But defend seems to connote more than that: arguing with them, refuting them, etc. If situations come up and a woman is capable of doing that, I don't have an issue. But I don't believe that it is a charge that can be laid upon all women regardless of gifts.



Not to over-react, Ruben...and consider "defend" to mean ANY situation where the knowledge of God is defamed. The entire Bible calls all Christians to be equipped to make "every thought captive"as 2 Corinthians 10:5: 

We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ...

Of course there's no requirement for women to pursue vocations as apologists (though they are free to the calling) but I do say the Scripture teaches that both men and women are equal in their responsibilities to know God's Word. Just because men are pastors doesn't mean women are excused from articulating doctrine. Biblical references abound where women are not only skilled but integral in the teaching the Gospel: Timothy's grandmother and Priscilla, to name a few.

I am also reminded of Martha (who's theology was far more accurate than the apostle's) when she articulated her eschatology and views on salvation to our Lord (John 11.) While on that note, isn't there a story in there about the two sisters, one which preferred the teachings of Jesus to cleaning the house? Hmmmm....

Fascinating and something to think about.




r.

[Edited on 3-11-2006 by Robin]


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## Robin (Mar 11, 2006)

I almost forgot....Dr. Scott Clark once taught a class at our church about the roles and attributes of the Christian woman. (!)

What a treasure that class was! A relief; an encouragement and assurance to faith. (sigh)

The content had nary a word about the "to do" list frequently cited in all the ladies studies. It was about theology, actually.

Miller is right - there IS a present crisis in culture on the understanding of women's (and FTM,men's) roles. The point I'm trying to make is THAT is a theological issue, primarily. 

 O, Dr. Clark.... what would you say? ???

R.


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## py3ak (Mar 11, 2006)

Robin, I have no problem with women learning doctrine and having the ability to defend it. I instructed my wife to stop reading a "how-to" book and read something like Calvin's Institutes. However, it is clear that what Paul commanded the older women to teach the younger women was very practical; to love their husbands, their children, to be keepers at home, etc. Obviously, then, they are to be equipped (and presumably equipped in a way that men can't be) to instruct in these areas. While they may and should instruct in other areas, this is the area where they have a command to do so.


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## R. Scott Clark (Mar 11, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Robin_
> I almost forgot....Dr. Scott Clark once taught a class at our church about the roles and attributes of the Christian woman. (!)
> 
> What a treasure that class was! A relief; an encouragement and assurance to faith. (sigh)
> ...



I don't usually hang out in this forum so I missed this.

I don't know that I have a lot to say except that I see females actively serving Christ in a variety of ways in the NT in unofficial but significant ways. I did a talk at Christ Reformed Church (URC) in Anaheim a few years ago. I don't know if they recorded it. 

I look at the women in Rom 16 and the women Paul mentions in Philippians and the husband and wife team in Acts who perhaps influenced the author (I think) of Hebrews. All these females had significant work in and for the church. Paul calls some of them "co-workers." I'm convinced by Bob Strimple's work in a report done some years ago for the OPC that Phoebe actually held an office of deaconess (though I understand this is a minority view). I think there is support for this view in the pastoral epistles as well.

I'm quite opposed to the "sit down and shut" view held by some -- none here I'm sure! I have served in communions were women were not to vote in congregations etc. That all seems somewhat reactionary to me. The NT is not very elaborate on congregational voting and to reason as they do that it is an exercise of "authority" forbidden to females is not well supported by the text of Scripture.

Paul is explicit in restricting the offices of minister and elder to males. This he grounds not in sexism but in the creational ordering. 

The diaconate is a different sort of office. It isn't, in my view, a ruling office. 

If we observe those distinctions (ruling v serving and the creational ordering) we don't have much to fear from the slippery slope.

Even if someone dissents from my argument about deaconesses (which I understand) there are still the other models of females actively assisting Paul's ministry and even then Phoebe is an important functionary of some sort so that the churches are to help her as she helps Paul. Do we have those sorts of non-ordained roles in our churches?

My theory is that if females fulfilled (or were allowed to fulfill) their vocation in family and church (contra the secular pressure to leave the home at all costs and the reactionary pressure to sit down and shut up) then we might not have the "feminism" crisis in our churches to the degree we have had. 

The diaconate and other forms of service would be a sort of pressure release. 

That notion of the diaconate (as a helping office) seems to fit well with Acts and with the pastorals and with our view of creation. 

Yes, the culture will continue to press to eliminate differences between the sexes. So we appeal to creation. Yes, the culture will continue to press to overturn and even reverse the creational order, but we stand on natural and special revelation and find fulfillment in living according to that order as nature is renewed by grace.

Cheers,

rsc


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## RamistThomist (Mar 11, 2006)

Raising Maidens of Virtue

So Much More


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## RamistThomist (Mar 11, 2006)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> Robin,
> 
> This study was chosen for a reason. Justification is an area where there are men on this board and husbands/fathers that are better suited to study with (and personally I would prefer to study it with my husband, which I already have, than with a group of ladies...Just my humble opinion). I wanted to steer this in an area that is specifically dealing with women and as this has been an area (practical application) of discussion and questions as of late...and even some debate within the past year both here and elsewhere, especially given that the rest of the board is geared towards theological and doctrinal subjects such as justification. Given the fact that we have several YOUNG ladies and soon to be married ones, let alone there are those of us that were not raised with a traditional biblical view in this area causing struggle, I thought this would be a decent topical study.
> ...



Excellent post, Colleen


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## Robin (Mar 11, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> Raising Maidens of Virtue
> 
> So Much More



 Materials on the subject like these (IF they're in line with theology) are sorely needed! 

(...haven't heard about these guys yet...and I plan to check-out Colleen's recommendation, thoroughly.)

r.


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## a mere housewife (Mar 11, 2006)

Colleen, I don't know if I have the password to the Tea Parlour anymore, but I would like to keep up with the discussion as I can. Perhaps you could send me the password in a U2U or email?


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## LadyFlynt (Mar 11, 2006)

Robin,

The scriptures actually DO speak to women teaching women in this manner.

Titus 2:3-5 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; *That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.*

Being a keeper at home, etc does NOT come naturally and there ARE specifics that are to be taught by the experience of other women (as stated in the scripture above). You do not tell a person to be warm and send them away with barely a stitch on. Same way you cannot just feed a woman doctrinally and expect her to assume to know the "how-tos"...granted, the how tos may come easier. (My husband states that the "how-tos" are the practical of the doctrine...preachers use this same principle in the pulpit) This is HOW an older woman "œcomes alongside" a younger woman.

On THIS particular board, which is DEVOTED mainly to doctrine and theology, I have been given a function in specific areas. This is because I am a woman and there are MEN here already to discuss the intricacies of basic doctrine. I would fall short in comparison to them in this area. The areas I CAN (scripturally) lead deal with the forums I have been given to moderate (family and women). I totally agree that a woman MUST understand Christ and Justification (and personally other doctrinal issues as well) and that there IS a time and place for teaching doctrine to other women. However, on this board, there is already a place for those discussions and they can be carried on there. The Tea Parlour was a place for women's discussions and a place where women can discuss amoungst themselves these certain issues. The ONLY reason that I placed a copy suggestion in the Family Forum is for the exact reason that you have mentioned...that the husbands, fiancÃ©s, and fathers may know.

I do not carelessly browse and choose books. In fact, I typically will even avoid "Christian" bookstores as they are full of junk and psychobabble. I usually cannot stand the "latest" running trends. Also, I have not stepped out from under my husband...he is plenty aware of every piece of reading material in this home and in fact, I am going through the WCF and Calvin's Institutes with him. I understand this CAN be an issue with certain women of today. Granted I will review certain types of books as I need to know the content and am asked, both here and other places, for an opinion on them. I also have the impression that you have not read THIS book, as you have made several presumptions about it that are not wholly accurate.

I will admit that this book DOES offer suggestions (your "œto-do")"¦but that is merely the second part of the book. The first part deals, again, with scriptural teachings on "œwhat a wise woman is" and our attitudes and relations towards others in this area. I chose this book because it deals BOTH with the spiritual aspect as well as the practical. This way whatever area one is needing more from, it will not be missed. Too many of us had plenty of theological study when we were younger, but sorely wished we had had an older woman to teach us from their own experience how to manage a home BEFORE having our homes get out of control.

As I have made clear in my previous posts...this is an OPTIONAL study. If you feel you have no need or desire of a study in this area, then you do not need to participate. There is the rest of the forum for discussing the other issues and they are open to you. Secondly, I was checking the INTEREST of other members in this area based upon previous discussions.


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## Gregg (Mar 11, 2006)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> Robin,
> 
> The scriptures actually DO speak to women teaching women in this manner.
> ...


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## Robin (Mar 12, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Gregg_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> ...



 This is self-evident! 

And I add (not to be contentious) this context is bound to the local church, under the care of pastor/elders. Yes, it is also applicable to all Christian women overall....within their local church or denoms.

Most importantly, it is carried out in real, personal (accountable) relationships. The Bible does not promote "women's ministries" packaged as seminar products or "women's retreats" (which are products, too.) Why fuss over this? Dissemination of either misleading or dangerous teachings pass under the radar of God ordained protection.

(Being a teacher) I've found the best-right way to teach is one-on-one or in such a way that there is mutual interaction, accountability. Most important is the teacher being under the authority of the local church. Example: Nancy Wilson will not teach anything contrary to her denom. Neither will Roman Catholics. 

Exegeting Titus 2 means I can learn from Nancy Wilson or Joyce Myers teachings is OK? If so, how?

How many times have we "back-peddaled" after finding-out the teachings of XYZ were faulty, unorthodox -- even dangerous? The "ministry" of Joyce Myers (who tours all mainstream denoms) comes to mind.



Hoping to bring caution and discernment to the discussion. (I'm done now. Thank you  )

r.


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## LadyFlynt (Mar 13, 2006)

1) Joyce Meyers is NOT a "women's ministry"...she extends beyond that and the example falls way out of bounds.

2) I agree the the *best* ideal is person to person. However that is not always possible. And for one to insist that such mentoring can ONLY take place within the context of a local church body is not only adding ones own thoughtst to scripture, but then must also be applied to other areas. Thus Matt should close down the PB and not put out any articles and ministers need to stop publishing books. If I were to have gone along ONLY with my mentoring woman in a previous church...in one church I would be completely immodest and my house would still be out of control...in another church, I would become a Gothardite, been legalistically concerned about my diet, ignored those around me, etc (look up Bill Gothard and you will see the problems there). There is another forum online that two of us PB mommas belong to that has given much support in areas of biblical womanhood. Do we have a slight variation of views...no more than in the local congregation. In fact, it's sad...but right now, I know very FEW ladies and ANY congregation I have been in that any serious young woman could turn to, let alone that have time, and receive sound rather than subjective advice.

3) I believe *caution* is to be used when choosing ANY books...including books on theological and doctrinal issues.

4) I don't believe in "women's retreats", etc...most of them are "self focused" and thus is self-defeating in teaching what they are supposed to be teaching, if they teach the Scriptures in context at all.

[Edited on 3-13-2006 by LadyFlynt]


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## LadyFlynt (Mar 13, 2006)

Steak's done...


Any other's interested in the study can u2u me or post in the Ladies Forum. (btw, posting for the study is permissable there...debating such as happened here will not be...I would like to simply know who is interested)


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