# Problems in the PCA?



## etexas

I am doing this Thread after seeing some comments in another, I am lucky to be in a rock solid PCA congregation, and I do hope the discourse is done in Christian charity and is reasonable rather than a  Question, does the PCA "truly" have more problems than other conservative, orthodox Presbyterian Bodies, OR, are the problems in my beloved PCA "magnified" for lack of a better word, by the fact that the PCA now numbers around 300,000 members? I might be a little biased but my inclination is the latter. Did the Lord not warn that the Enemy sows Tares among the wheat, and if so in a "large field" we will in point of fact see this perhaps more clearly? What say ye my Brethren?


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## TimV

I'm thinking about posting a detailed account of my PCA Church Trial. I figure if I do it with no names, and no guessing motivation, and only post things that are public anyway is should be allowed by the rules here. That would give an idea of what is currently practiced in the PCA, in terms of WCF standards, BCO standards, etc...

Look for a separate thread, which will start with me complaining about a young man who refused to baptise his two infants and was himself never baptised being ordained as an officer in the PCA, made "Coordinator of Missions" and ended up me being called Demon possessed by the Pastor from the pulpit, and the local leadership of the Northern California Presbytery supporting him.


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## turmeric

Okay, okay.
It's like this, In my humble opinion. All churches will have problems. All congregations will have problems, and the presbyteries and general assemblies too, because we are sinful and the devil is always trying to destroy the witness of the church in the world and to discourage members of the invisible Church. (Believe me, it can get personally _very_ discouraging, I know from experience!) The church will always be like this until the return of Christ, then we'll find out what is was supposed to be like.

I don't think the PCA is any worse-off than any other Reformed denomination. The only one I'd really be worried about is the CREC, because so many who couldn't get their theology past the governing bodies of their denominations have taken refuge there.


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## etexas

turmeric said:


> Okay, okay.
> It's like this, In my humble opinion. All churches will have problems. All congregations will have problems, and the presbyteries and general assemblies too, because we are sinful and the devil is always trying to destroy the witness of the church in the world and to discourage members of the invisible Church. (Believe me, it can get personally _very_ discouraging, I know from experience!) The church will always be like this until the return of Christ, then we'll find out what is was supposed to be like.
> 
> I don't think the PCA is any worse-off than any other Reformed denomination. The only one I'd really be worried about is the CREC, because so many who couldn't get their theology past the governing bodies of their denominations have taken refuge there.


 and Amen!


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## Presbyterian Deacon

turmeric said:


> I don't think the PCA is any worse-off than any other Reformed denomination.


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## etexas

Presbyterian Deacon said:


> turmeric said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think the PCA is any worse-off than any other Reformed denomination.
Click to expand...


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## HaigLaw

In my humble opinion, there are a lot of issues that are treated within liberty of conscience in the PCA, which should be so treated, that would have binding rules one way or the other in, say, the OPC. 

This is anecdotal, but one time in nominating men for office in my former OPC church, I was told by the then-pastor that he would not support candidates who smoked or were in his opinion too fat. 

I'm sorry, but I couldn't find anything on things like that in the Biblical criteria for office.


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## etexas

HaigLaw said:


> In my humble opinion, there are a lot of issues that are treated within liberty of conscience in the PCA, which should be so treated, that would have binding rules one way or the other in, say, the OPC.
> 
> This is anecdotal, but one time in nominating men for office in my former OPC church, I was told by the then-pastor that he would not support candidates who smoked or were in his opinion too fat.
> 
> I'm sorry, but I couldn't find anything on things like that in the Biblical criteria for office.


LOL. I have met some pretty good "chunky" Pastors in my day.


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## turmeric

etexas said:


> HaigLaw said:
> 
> 
> 
> In my humble opinion, there are a lot of issues that are treated within liberty of conscience in the PCA, which should be so treated, that would have binding rules one way or the other in, say, the OPC.
> 
> This is anecdotal, but one time in nominating men for office in my former OPC church, I was told by the then-pastor that he would not support candidates who smoked or were in his opinion too fat.
> 
> I'm sorry, but I couldn't find anything on things like that in the Biblical criteria for office.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL. I have met some pretty good "chunky" Pastors in my day.
Click to expand...

 
Well, I can't be an elder anyway, so I might as well have some cheescake! Or maybe a cigar?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

As far as the problems in the PCA I do believe they emerge from many of the same problems that hit our culture. Thanks to the powerful work of the Existentialists and the Romantics there has been a great emergence of the self and especially the interrogatory autonomy of the self that places self above the group in such a way that the group is no longer the driving force in the relationship. In other words the autonomous self is given power that it never had before in such a manner hat does not allow the individual to be convicted of the power and authority given to the body to make decisions and for lack of a better word control the life of the individual. I for one am a believer in the fact that democracy is dangerous and outright damaging within the context of the body of Christ.


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## HaigLaw

BP, are you saying that democracy is more at work in the PCA than the OPC; and if not, what was your point, as I fear I may have missed it?


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## jogri17

In my limited experience of being involved the Reformed communities I have noticed several things. There seems to be tension amoung the more strongly confessional groups (Dutch Reformed, OPC, and true Reformed Baptists) and more mondern day calvinists who are confessional but are more open to disagreement (T4G types, PCA, Founder's movement, Sovereign Grace, ect...). Both are apart of the Reformed tradition but there are differences on cultural mentalities. I do think this is especially true in America and is growing in the UK and Australia. In America, in calvinistic evancelicism, there is the new groups and the old fundamentalist groups. There is friendly tension. We see this here on the board. I think the PCA is struggling with direction it want to be in. They don't want to be too much like the Sovereign grace people, they don't want to become the OPC, but they are afraid deathly (and rightly so) of returning to the PCUSA and becoming like them (even though there is no evidence so far of this by God's grace).


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

My point was more the milieu of the American conscience than a specific denominational identity.


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## Cotton Mather

I deleted my first post since it might have veered from the original purpose of the thread. I must have misunderstood. My apologies.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Well glad you found your way to the ARP.


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## etexas

HaigLaw said:


> BP, are you saying that democracy is more at work in the PCA than the OPC; and if not, what was your point, as I fear I may have missed it?


Yes, good question, is it more of a problem in the PCA than other bodies OR is it more amplified given the sheer number of PCA Churches? I would for the sake of my Thread like to avoid the whole "I had a bad experience in a PCA Church." It undermines the broader focus of this, for every "bad" PCA church I could probably find 5 orthodox PCA bodies.


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## TimV

> I would for the sake of my Thread like to avoid the whole "I had a bad experience in a PCA Church." It undermines the broader focus of this, for every "bad" PCA church I could probably find 5 orthodox PCA bodies.



So we'll have to get to concrete examples.


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## etexas

TimV said:


> I would for the sake of my Thread like to avoid the whole "I had a bad experience in a PCA Church." It undermines the broader focus of this, for every "bad" PCA church I could probably find 5 orthodox PCA bodies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So we'll have to get to concrete examples.
Click to expand...

Well, Brother I am not trying to "smother" discourse OR downplay a bad PCA experience, that is outside of the focus of this thread, I am trying to deal with the PCA as a denomination in a broad sense. I hope you understand Brother.


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## fredtgreco

Or maybe we could spend our Lord's Day preparation in a better fashion than trying to find out what is so horrible about various denominations. I could certainly give many examples of what is wrong with the PCA. I could very easily do the same with the OPC. It might not be the _same _things, but there would be things. So the ARP. So also the Presbyterian.... church or whatever.

Max, stop worrying. As you said, thank the Lord for where he has placed you now.


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## etexas

fredtgreco said:


> Or maybe we could spend our Lord's Day preparation in a better fashion than trying to find out what is so horrible about various denominations. I could certainly give many examples of what is wrong with the PCA. I could very easily do the same with the OPC. It might not be the _same _things, but there would be things. So the ARP. So also the Presbyterian.... church or whatever.
> 
> Max, stop worrying. As you said, thank the Lord for where he has placed you now.


Fred, my Brother, I am not trying to find horrid things (you know me better) I think done in a proper way can edify and build understanding, that is actually a hope of this thread, with that in focus I can think of few ways better than preparing for Our Blessed Lord's Day, so long as this is conducted in true Christian Charity. Grace and Peace my Friend.


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## DMcFadden

Pardon the social science observations of a Baptist who is supposedly a specialist in organizational behavior (with a genuine M.A. in the field too!). My intent is NOT to speak to the actual culture of the PCA (pretty presumptuous for a Baptist), merely to make some quick analytical observations about typical organizational behavior as it applies to the question being asked.

It is my understanding that the history of the PCA was constituted through a flight from more liberal denominations over issues such as inerrancy and Christology. Both in the original context of the early 70s and with the additions in the early 80s, the churches were mainly part of more liberal groups and wanted to keep their conservative identity. In this sense the ethos was shaped by a combination of the somewhat latitudinarian praxis in the parent bodies coupled with conservative theological convictions. Since then, the emphasis has been placed on expansion into suburban settings.

Judging by the originally more "relaxed" practice of the parent denominations and by the effort to penetrate the suburban American culture, it is not surprising that PCA congregations would be somewhat more open to "innovations" than some of the smaller and more insular Reformed denominations. Whether with the church growth movement of the 80s or the Willowcreek-ization of the evangelical church since then, "Shine Jesus Shine" approaches have become the currency of the land. 

In my own group, which fairly recently broke away from a mainline denomination over issues of inspiration of the Bible and homosexuality, our experience may prove analogical, or at least instructive. As treasurer of the organization, I can testify to the fact that we work very hard NOT to be our ecclesiastical parent. However, some of the ethos, the practices, and elements of the corporate culture (or corporate DNA if you will) continued with us into the new body. Outside of the issues which led to our separation, we tend to be blind to other negative elements of the mainline group we emerged from.

Since the PCA grew out of disgruntled conservatives from more liberal groups and has been committed to an aggressive program of church expansion, it should not be surprising that so much of the "Shine Jesus Shine" approach has crept into the Presbyterian fold. 

So, what implications can we draw from this mini-history in terms of the original question?

1. Groups involved in ecclesiastical splits (whether local congregations or larger groups) typically carry a bit of the pugilistic flavor of separtistic divisiveness with them. Such a negative ethos continues for a long time. That is why so many congregations that angrily split give rise to other congregations with problems of divisiveness.

2. On the other hand, the smaller Reformed groups tended to keep their identity, often shaped by ethnic factors, into the present. They were often more homogeneous and maintained their confessional identity as central to their corporate ethos. Groups such as this may be expected to objectify the "other" as an outsider to the tradition. Strangers would be suspect as possible threats to the tradition. Insofar as insiders behave like outsiders, they would likely be viewed as traitors or prodigals.

3. What do you expect? They are all Presbyterians, after all! Like Baptists, they are famous for their cantankerous inability to get along. It has something to do with deleterious impact of the fall on our volition and emotions, I think.

4. In addition to #3 above, the PCA might suffer from two negatives: the left over spirit of division they began with AND the unexamined openness to modern innovations "inherited" from their original denominations. Both of these realities can create problems in a congregation. The smaller Reformed bodies, being definitionally more insular, will be bedeviled by the irritating "know it all" spirit of criticism common to both Reformed expressions of Christianity and sociologically smaller bodies. 

So, they both have problems! Welcome to the real world! 

At this point, however, they ALL sound better than where I have come from! Better an intramural debate over details of the RPW or being EP than livng with apostates who ordain homosexuals and believe all roads lead to heaven!


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## etexas

DMcFadden said:


> Pardon the social science observations of a Baptist who is supposedly a specialist in organizational behavior (with a genuine M.A. in the field too!). My intent is NOT to speak to the actual culture of the PCA (pretty presumptuous for a Baptist), merely to make some quick analytical observations about typical organizational behavior as it applies to the question being asked.
> 
> It is my understanding that the history of the PCA was constituted through a flight from more liberal denominations over issues such as inerrancy and Christology. Both in the original context of the early 70s and with the additions in the early 80s, the churches were mainly part of more liberal groups and wanted to keep their conservative identity. In this sense the ethos was shaped by a combination of the somewhat latitudinarian praxis in the parent bodies coupled with conservative theological convictions. Since then, the emphasis has been placed on expansion into suburban settings.
> 
> Judging by the originally more "relaxed" practice of the parent denominations and by the effort to penetrate the suburban American culture, it is not surprising that PCA congregations would be somewhat more open to "innovations" than some of the smaller and more insular Reformed denominations. Whether with the church growth movement of the 80s or the Willowcreek-ization of the evangelical church since then, "Shine Jesus Shine" approaches have become the currency of the land.
> 
> In my own group, which fairly recently broke away from a mainline denomination over issues of inspiration of the Bible and homosexuality, our experience may prove analogical, or at least instructive. As treasurer of the organization, I can testify to the fact that we work very hard NOT to be our ecclesiastical parent. However, some of the ethos, the practices, and elements of the corporate culture (or corporate DNA if you will) continued with us into the new body. Outside of the issues which led to our separation, we tend to be blind to other negative elements of the mainline group we emerged from.
> 
> Since the PCA grew out of disgruntled conservatives from more liberal groups and has been committed to an aggressive program of church expansion, it should not be surprising that so much of the "Shine Jesus Shine" approach has crept into the Presbyterian fold.
> 
> So, what implications can we draw from this mini-history in terms of the original question?
> 
> 1. Groups involved in ecclesiastical splits (whether local congregations or larger groups) typically carry a bit of the pugilistic flavor of separtistic divisiveness with them. Such a negative ethos continues for a long time. That is why so many congregations that angrily split give rise to other congregations with problems of divisiveness.
> 
> 2. On the other hand, the smaller Reformed groups tended to keep their identity, often shaped by ethnic factors, into the present. They were often more homogeneous and maintained their confessional identity as central to their corporate ethos. Groups such as this may be expected to objectify the "other" as an outsider to the tradition. Strangers would be suspect as possible threats to the tradition. Insofar as insiders behave like outsiders, they would likely be viewed as traitors or prodigals.
> 
> 3. What do you expect? They are all Presbyterians, after all! Like Baptists, they are famous for their cantankerous inability to get along. It has something to do with deleterious impact of the fall on our volition and emotions, I think.
> 
> 4. In addition to #3 above, the PCA might suffer from two negatives: the left over spirit of division they began with AND the unexamined openness to modern innovations "inherited" from their original denominations. Both of these realities can create problems in a congregation. The smaller Reformed bodies, being definitionally more insular, will be bedeviled by the irritating "know it all" spirit of criticism common to both Reformed expressions of Christianity and sociologically smaller bodies.
> So, they both have problems! Welcome to the real world!
> 
> At this point, however, they ALL sound better than where I have come from!
> 
> Better an intramural debate over details of the RPW or being EP than livng with apostates who ordain homosexuals and believe all roads lead to heaven!


Interesting! A lot to chew on, and thank you Dennis, as a Baptist, your observations bring a perspective that we as Presbyterians might overlook, not seeing the forest for the trees as it were!


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## DMcFadden

I should have given an example in my last post.

The ABCUSA holds an almost doctrinal adherance to the idea that eschatology is a matter of individual opinion, takes a laissez faire approach to charismatic things (although the vast majority of ABC folks firmly disagree with all things charismatic), and believes in the ordination of women, probably more than in the deity of Christ. 

When we separated from the ABC, we were pretty clear on the authority of the Bible, the wrongness of gay ordination, and united against universalism -- against the ethos of the ABC which commonly accepts all three (whether actively or passively). However, our successor organization retains numerous elements of ABC culture. For instance, when we met with another Baptist body to explore the possibility of organizational union, guess what? The "deal breakers" were not in the areas of an orthodox understanding of Biblical authority, ordination of practicing gays, or universalism. We were one on all three points. However, coming out of the ABC, we retained other facets of the culture, specifically a tendency for a strong percentage (if not an actual majority) or our pastors to refuse to foreclose eschatological options, to want to leave open the door on charismatic matters, and to be generally in favor of the ordination of women.

My observation is that the very different histories of the PCA and some of the other smaller Reformed bodies helps explain the distinctly different cultures.


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## HaigLaw

turmeric said:


> etexas said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HaigLaw said:
> 
> 
> 
> In my humble opinion, there are a lot of issues that are treated within liberty of conscience in the PCA, which should be so treated, that would have binding rules one way or the other in, say, the OPC.
> 
> This is anecdotal, but one time in nominating men for office in my former OPC church, I was told by the then-pastor that he would not support candidates who smoked or were in his opinion too fat.
> 
> I'm sorry, but I couldn't find anything on things like that in the Biblical criteria for office.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL. I have met some pretty good "chunky" Pastors in my day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, I can't be an elder anyway, so I might as well have some cheescake! Or maybe a cigar?
Click to expand...


Really! Well, there were a lot of issues in which "things mean exactly what I say they mean, no more, no less," with this guy. Like, Alice in Wonderland. I'm not painting the whole OPC with that brush; I'm just relating my experience.


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## calgal

turmeric said:


> etexas said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HaigLaw said:
> 
> 
> 
> In my humble opinion, there are a lot of issues that are treated within liberty of conscience in the PCA, which should be so treated, that would have binding rules one way or the other in, say, the OPC.
> 
> This is anecdotal, but one time in nominating men for office in my former OPC church, I was told by the then-pastor that he would not support candidates who smoked or were in his opinion too fat.
> 
> I'm sorry, but I couldn't find anything on things like that in the Biblical criteria for office.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL. I have met some pretty good "chunky" Pastors in my day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, I can't be an elder anyway, so I might as well have some cheescake! Or maybe a cigar?
Click to expand...


Save me a piece too? mmmmm cheesecake......


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## TimV

> This is anecdotal, but one time in nominating men for office in my former OPC church, I was told by the then-pastor that he would not support candidates who smoked or were in his opinion too fat.



That's the same in the PCA as well. A Session can decide not to accept the candidacy of anyone they don't like for any reason, but there is a recourse in that the congregation can over rule their decision by a special vote.

There seems to be a generational difference in the PCA, with older people who've been through the battles over neo-Orthodoxy in particular and younger men who are fond of Barth-lite NPP teachings as well as Emergent leanings. In our congregation even the only ruling Elder wouldn't baptise his child until I started writing letters, and they rejected the candidacy of everyone people nominated or were considering nominating. One guy reads Rushdoony books, so he was out, another was asked to withdraw his candidacy for no given reason, etc...which is all allowable.

And now there seems to be an attempt to reel in Presbyteries that are doing things like making women, baptists and Arminians officers or this new "unordained officers" deal. Things that the founders of the PCA never addressed. Now we'll have to see if it's gone too far to change without loosing more congregations to other denominations like the CRC.

One wonders how many hundreds of thousands of dollars the PCA has already lost by churches we've planted who have left on their own for these reasons. If for no other reason than that some things will have to be addressed.


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## shackleton

I don't know if it is a _problem_ but all but one of the PCA churches in KC tend to be _kind_ of emerging. Not the McLaren type but the Driscoll type, they are trying to be relevant in our culture. Again, I don't know if this is good or bad this seems to be the wave of the future. 

Most members of these churches do not even know they are going to a Presbyterian church. They were attracted to the contemporary style worship and relaxed atmosphere. 

Eating and drinking during the service, getting up during the preaching to refresh your cappuccino or get another bagel. But again this seems to be the way most churches are going.


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## raekwon

shackleton said:


> I don't know if it is a _problem_ but all but one of the PCA churches in KC tend to be _kind_ of emerging. Not the McLaren type but the Driscoll type, they are trying to be relevant in our culture. Again, I don't know if this is good or bad this seems to be the wave of the future.
> 
> Most members of these churches do not even know they are going to a Presbyterian church. They were attracted to the contemporary style worship and relaxed atmosphere.
> 
> Eating and drinking during the service, getting up during the preaching to refresh your cappuccino or get another bagel. But again this seems to be the way most churches are going.



That sounds more like Hybels/Warren-style "seeker sensitivity" than anything I'd associate with "emerging" churches.


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## etexas

shackleton said:


> I don't know if it is a _problem_ but all but one of the PCA churches in KC tend to be _kind_ of emerging. Not the McLaren type but the Driscoll type, they are trying to be relevant in our culture. Again, I don't know if this is good or bad this seems to be the wave of the future.
> 
> Most members of these churches do not even know they are going to a Presbyterian church. They were attracted to the contemporary style worship and relaxed atmosphere.
> 
> Eating and drinking during the service, getting up during the preaching to refresh your cappuccino or get another bagel. But again this seems to be the way most churches are going.


Yes, in fairness I visited an OPC, congregation, where people had coffee cups under the chairs, during a service, so sadly I must say this is not just some PCA thing, but a (sad) reflection of how even good churches are following cultural trends. Grace and Peace.


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## TimV

> Yes, in fairness I visited an OPC, congregation, where people had coffee cups under the chairs, during a service,



That was probably the most difficult thing for the kids after having grown up in South African reformed churches. The total disrespect for the house of God that you so often see. The getting up just after the service starts with false smiles to shake hands with the guy next to you and wandering around until you're called back; "passing the peace" I guess you call it, the wandering in late with coffee in your hand, women whispering to each other etc..was so dramatically different from what they were used to that the older boys hated going. I'd hear them talk about "liberals" and so forth.

In SA you just don't come late, otherwise the pastor will stop the sermon and correct you. Nobody thought of eating or drinking, people wore shoes (how radical!!) women ran the nursery instead of an Elder and when God's word is read you stand up because you are hearing the edict of a great King.


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## Pergamum

HaigLaw said:


> In my humble opinion, there are a lot of issues that are treated within liberty of conscience in the PCA, which should be so treated, that would have binding rules one way or the other in, say, the OPC.
> 
> This is anecdotal, but one time in nominating men for office in my former OPC church, I was told by the then-pastor that he would not support candidates who smoked or were in his opinion too fat.
> 
> I'm sorry, but I couldn't find anything on things like that in the Biblical criteria for office.



Being temperate or self-controlled might be evidenced or proven as lacking by these traits.


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## beej6

I have to say, eating and drinking during the service would be way down on my list of things to check out, though I rarely do it myself, and none of the churches I've attended have ever had this 'problem'... so maybe I haven't seen the other side.

I recently attended a concert at a large church sanctuary, and remember being struck by seeing a coffee bar in the very large outer lobby area - which was very convenient for us on a Saturday but you just knew it would be open the next day! And irony of ironies, there was a small bookstore next door... that was only open on Sunday (!).


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## Pergamum

interesting point about the bookstore in the church only open on Sunday....can we start a new thread about it? I am intrigued.


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## BJClark

I don't know, I have been to various churches, I've not gone to one where they ate or drank during the service (unless it's communion) if they have coffee or food it's during the Sunday School time frame, and then you don't carry your cup or food to the sanctuary..

We stand for the reading of God's word, and most people don't get up, even to go to the restroom, afraid they are going to miss something.


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## raekwon

If the biggest problem people have with the PCA is that some folks in some churches sip their coffee or soda during church, I'll take it.


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## Mushroom

raekwon said:


> If the biggest problem people have with the PCA is that some folks in some churches sip their coffee or soda during church, I'll take it.



Yah, if only....


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## etexas

Pergamum said:


> HaigLaw said:
> 
> 
> 
> In my humble opinion, there are a lot of issues that are treated within liberty of conscience in the PCA, which should be so treated, that would have binding rules one way or the other in, say, the OPC.
> 
> This is anecdotal, but one time in nominating men for office in my former OPC church, I was told by the then-pastor that he would not support candidates who smoked or were in his opinion too fat.
> 
> I'm sorry, but I couldn't find anything on things like that in the Biblical criteria for office.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Being temperate or self-controlled might be evidenced or proven as lacking by these traits.
Click to expand...

Perg, it could depend on other factors of course, I know an Anglican Priest who has some heart and blood pressure problems, the meds he takes made him, in his own words "Swell up." Plus he is a "big boned" fellow to start with, it makes him look a lot bigger than he really is, it would be a shame if someone at first blush looked at him an thought "what a glutton" without knowing all the factors.


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## Pergamum

Etexas: Yes, it is one factor among many.


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## Zenas

Everyone has something screwy going on with their congregation that they don't think is right. 

Welcome to the Church.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

That is why Calvin said there are only 3 things you need for a true Church.


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## ColdSilverMoon

One problem I have heard is that at the current growth rate in the PCA, the demand for pastors outstrips the supply. Thus, new "first-time" pastors are thrust into the top leadership role in a new congregation, which seems to me a recipe for disaster. Also, I know of a few prominent PCA churches that have had a terrible time finding pastors with an iota of qualification for the job. It would be interesting to hear from Pastor Greco and others on the problem of fidning good pastors to shepherd the many new PCA congregations.

Overall, I'm a pretty loyal PCA man. I won't deny it has flaws, but by and large you can travel anywhere in the country and be pretty confident in attending a solid PCA church there. Few other congregations can make this claim...


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## Pergamum

And the part about "the sacraments being rightly administered..." even is not totally needed because both Baptists and Presbyterians recognize the other as being a church despite one of them not administering the sacraments properly.


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## etexas

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> That is why Calvin said there are only 3 things you need for a true Church.


Those 3 being?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

1) Gospel is Properly Preached
2) Sacraments properly administered
3) Discipline is active and loving


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## etexas

ColdSilverMoon said:


> One problem I have heard is that at the current growth rate in the PCA, the demand for pastors outstrips the supply. Thus, new "first-time" pastors are thrust into the top leadership role in a new congregation, which seems to me a recipe for disaster. Also, I know of a few prominent PCA churches that have had a terrible time finding pastors with an iota of qualification for the job. It would be interesting to hear from Pastor Greco and others on the problem of fidning good pastors to shepherd the many new PCA congregations.
> 
> Overall, I'm a pretty loyal PCA man. I won't deny it has flaws, but by and large you can travel anywhere in the country and be pretty confident in attending a solid PCA church there. Few other congregations can make this claim...


BIG ditto! I was trying to find a PCA for my sister, one was a little "happy-clappy" BUT about 12 minutes from that one I found a PCA that was VERY traditional and orthodox. Sometimes you just have to look. True in ANY church.


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## etexas

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> 1) Gospel is Properly Preached
> 2) Sacraments properly administered
> 3) Discipline is active and loving


Nice I like that! Thank you, you see, I feel that the most orthodox Presbyterian bodies embody that, including most PCA churches.


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## raekwon

Ok, so on a serious note . . . one thing I've seen and heard from friends and colleagues in lots of PCA churches around the country (particularly in the South) is a tendency -- among both individuals and whole churches -- to treat the local church as if it's some "Reformed Bomb Shelter", where we can huddle up and hide (if only for an hour and a half on Sunday) from the evils of the world, the Pope, liberalism, Arminianism, and broad evangelicalism.

We need to see our churches as outposts of the Kingdom of God, loudly proclaiming freedom to the captives, even at great risk to ourselves and our comfort.


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## etexas

raekwon said:


> Ok, so on a serious note . . . one thing I've seen and heard from friends and colleagues in lots of PCA churches around the country (particularly in the South) is a tendency -- among both individuals and whole churches -- to treat the local church as if it's some "Reformed Bomb Shelter", where we can huddle up and hide (if only for an hour and a half on Sunday) from the evils of the world, the Pope, liberalism, Arminianism, and broad evangelicalism.
> 
> We need to see our churches as outposts of the Kingdom of God, loudly proclaiming freedom to the captives, even at great risk to ourselves and our comfort.


Rae, do you not think this can sometimes be the case with other Traditional Presbyterian Bodies? I do not not deny that this may be true in some PCA churches, but IS IT ONLY A PCA ISSUE? Million Dollar Question my friend.


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## Reepicheep

shackleton said:


> I don't know if it is a _problem_ but all but one of the PCA churches in KC tend to be _kind_ of emerging. Not the McLaren type but the Driscoll type, they are trying to be relevant in our culture. Again, I don't know if this is good or bad this seems to be the wave of the future.
> 
> Most members of these churches do not even know they are going to a Presbyterian church. They were attracted to the contemporary style worship and relaxed atmosphere.
> 
> Eating and drinking during the service, getting up during the preaching to refresh your cappuccino or get another bagel. But again this seems to be the way most churches are going.



To be fair, and being a pastor of one of the PCA churches in KC, it would be more accurate to describe the churches this way- there are currently 6 churches in the KC metro area. None are "emerging", but two practice contemporary worship (worship band, casual atmosphere for worship- as you describe), however, they both basically stick to expository preaching. I know the brothers who are pastors there, we have different convictions about worship style and format, but they're not really "emerging". Three of the churches are more traditional in worship style and very definitely actively practice the RPW. That manifests itself in a Covenant Renewal/Liturgical form in our church and the church we helped to plant, in the other church it's a simple order of worship that is followed. The one church left practices a blended style of worship, but probably tips toward traditional.

All this to say, "emerging" is probably not a good designation for any of these churches. All the pastors are committed either exclusive expository preaching, or the majority of their preaching is expository (possibly one exception to this in this group). 

We have good fellowship with each others as pastors, because we are part of the same church. We love and respect each other, even with some pretty hearty debate and discussion about worship issues. I think the full breadth of the reformed tradition in the U.S. can be seen in our little group of PCA churches in KC.


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## raekwon

etexas said:


> raekwon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, so on a serious note . . . one thing I've seen and heard from friends and colleagues in lots of PCA churches around the country (particularly in the South) is a tendency -- among both individuals and whole churches -- to treat the local church as if it's some "Reformed Bomb Shelter", where we can huddle up and hide (if only for an hour and a half on Sunday) from the evils of the world, the Pope, liberalism, Arminianism, and broad evangelicalism.
> 
> We need to see our churches as outposts of the Kingdom of God, loudly proclaiming freedom to the captives, even at great risk to ourselves and our comfort.
> 
> 
> 
> Rae, do you not think this can sometimes be the case with other Traditional Presbyterian Bodies? I do not not deny that this may be true in some PCA churches, but IS IT ONLY A PCA ISSUE? Million Dollar Question my friend.
Click to expand...


Oh, I don't think for a second that this is only a problem with the PCA, only a problem in confessional Presbyterianism, or even only a problem in broader evangelicalism. By no means.


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## etexas

raekwon said:


> etexas said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> raekwon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, so on a serious note . . . one thing I've seen and heard from friends and colleagues in lots of PCA churches around the country (particularly in the South) is a tendency -- among both individuals and whole churches -- to treat the local church as if it's some "Reformed Bomb Shelter", where we can huddle up and hide (if only for an hour and a half on Sunday) from the evils of the world, the Pope, liberalism, Arminianism, and broad evangelicalism.
> 
> We need to see our churches as outposts of the Kingdom of God, loudly proclaiming freedom to the captives, even at great risk to ourselves and our comfort.
> 
> 
> 
> Rae, do you not think this can sometimes be the case with other Traditional Presbyterian Bodies? I do not not deny that this may be true in some PCA churches, but IS IT ONLY A PCA ISSUE? Million Dollar Question my friend.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh, I don't think for a second that this is only a problem with the PCA, only a problem in confessional Presbyterianism, or even only a problem in broader evangelicalism. By no means.
Click to expand...

Good answer and I agree with you this is a problem that is not just limited to the reformed but spills overs into the "broadly Evangelical" church as well!


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## fredtgreco

ColdSilverMoon said:


> One problem I have heard is that at the current growth rate in the PCA, the demand for pastors outstrips the supply. Thus, new "first-time" pastors are thrust into the top leadership role in a new congregation, which seems to me a recipe for disaster. Also, I know of a few prominent PCA churches that have had a terrible time finding pastors with an iota of qualification for the job. It would be interesting to hear from Pastor Greco and others on the problem of fidning good pastors to shepherd the many new PCA congregations.




Actually, Mason, the problem is the exact opposite. There are far more men looking for calls than churches looking for a pastor. I had heard that for every open pulpit/position in the PCA, there were something like 75 men without call. Now not all of these men are looking for a call, so even if we assume that half of them are not, that is still an astounding number.

It makes for a great deal of arrogance in churches/pulpit committees. Most 100 member PCA churches expect to get an energetic 40 year old man with 15 years experience, who is a great preacher, teaches like R.C Sproul, and counsels like a master. Oh, and his kids are perfect, his wife does tons of ministry, and they are happy to live on $40,000 a year (including housing and both halfs of social security). This type of situation makes for men who go along with all sorts of things simply to get a call.


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## Reepicheep

fredtgreco said:


> ColdSilverMoon said:
> 
> 
> 
> One problem I have heard is that at the current growth rate in the PCA, the demand for pastors outstrips the supply. Thus, new "first-time" pastors are thrust into the top leadership role in a new congregation, which seems to me a recipe for disaster. Also, I know of a few prominent PCA churches that have had a terrible time finding pastors with an iota of qualification for the job. It would be interesting to hear from Pastor Greco and others on the problem of fidning good pastors to shepherd the many new PCA congregations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, Mason, the problem is the exact opposite. There are far more men looking for calls than churches looking for a pastor. I had heard that for every open pulpit/position in the PCA, there were something like 75 men without call. Now not all of these men are looking for a call, so even if we assume that half of them are not, that is still an astounding number.
> 
> It makes for a great deal of arrogance in churches/pulpit committees. Most 100 member PCA churches expect to get an energetic 40 year old man with 15 years experience, who is a great preacher, teaches like R.C Sproul, and counsels like a master. Oh, and his kids are perfect, his wife does tons of ministry, and they are happy to live on $40,000 a year (including housing and both halfs of social security). This type of situation makes for men who go along with all sorts of things simply to get a call.
Click to expand...


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## Archlute

I've also been surprised to see how many of these smaller congregations state that their minister should have a PhD. I think that their thoughts of what a ministry should consist (especially in a small and/or rural body) are not very realistic.

Another problem which I have seen coming from congregations which are supposedly governed by confessional Reformed standards is that of requiring the holding of extra-confessional theological positions before they will consider receiving a man as their pastor - he _must be_ post-mil, or non-theonomic, or a classical apologist, or a presup apologist, etc. These bodies really need to begin developing a healthy understanding that this man is a minister of Christ; a minister of the Word and sacraments, and not their "preacher boy" who will run like a pet when called to fulfill their every ministry ambition.


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## DMcFadden

Fred, 

I'm sorry to hear about the situation in the PCA _vis a vis _placement. Having lived through the failure of the broad evangelical movement, I have high hopes for my Presbyterian brethren, sometimes too high! Rae nailed it with his line about a Reformed Bomb Shelter!  I will confess to investing you all with more hope than would be reasonable at times and viewing your congregations as "Reformed Bomb Shelters" from the collateral damage of broad evangelicalism's explosion (or, rather, mixing my metaphors, implosion).

Still, Presbyterians and confessional Baptists should look at the spectacular failure of contemporary evangelicalism and learn the lessons before it is too late. Fundamentalism in the early 20th century thought that opposing liberalism was a strong enough identity and _raison d'etre_. In their assiduous efforts to guard against liberalism, they ended up embracing, willy nilly, a legalism so toxic that it was certifiably Galatian. And, their solution to the corrosive acid of modernist critical methodologies was to find safety in an even more modern and novel hermeneutic, dispensationalism.

Carl F.H. Henry envisioned his idea of a broad evangelical movement to redress these errors. He thought that one could simply hold to orthodox beliefs and "engage" the liberal world "critically." Fuller Seminary was the ideal laboratory for Henry's model. Not only was he a founding professor, but his vision was the intellectual container in which broad evangelicalism emerged. 

Within little more than two decades (i.e., shortly before my own matriculation there), the evidence that the experiment had gone wildly wrong was manifest. The more orthodox professors fled the place as others came who completed the transformation. I'm not sure whether Fuller was a prime example, leading indicator, or causative factor in the disintegration of evangelicalism. 

However, having lived through an evangelical Christian college (where my own pastor's daughter later "lost faith" at the hands of the man who officiated at my wedding 34 years ago yesterday!), Fuller (where just about any sub-species of nutty heterodoxy is countenanced as fair game today), and a separation from a mainline denomination (where gays are married, ordained, and active and the Bible is twisted like a wax nose to justify this and so much more), this stuff is more than a little existential for me.

Confessional subscription is not a panacea any more than Presbyterianism _qua_ Presbyterianism can be. However, my prayer for you PCA guys is that you will not spend so much time aping the evangelical movement that you hitch a ride on their handbasket to hell.


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