# Family/Church/State â€“ Education - What is Normative/Ideal?



## crhoades (Jun 21, 2005)

Family/Church/State "“ Education

Trying to precise the issues involved. I think in principle everyone agrees that the family is delegated the responsibility by God to fulfill the education of their children.

With that being said. _Some/many_ Christians are fine with the act of delegating the teaching of their children to church/Christian schools. However when it comes to the act of delegating the teaching of their children to public/government schools _some/many_ Christians do not approve. 

Why?

Is it the fact that the public/government schools are currently godless? Probably. What about the situation where a country is Christian/coveanted/theonomic/(however you want to say or define it) and the public/government schools are teaching from a Christian worldview?

If a person says NO to the situation of a Christian Government school system then they would be inconsistent if they agreed to a church based or other Christian school because they are willing to delegate to them.

But if the argument is made that the state (especially in a Christian society) has no jurisdiction to educate children because it is operating out of its delegated sphere "“ then that cuts both ways and negates the idea of parochial schools. We are then left with homeschooling only.

Other arguments against state schools is the tax. For the government to provide education it has to pay for it by taking money from other people in the form of a tax. People (myself included but that is irrelevant) disagree with that. Likewise for the church to provide education it will have to pay for it via the tithe as it does not generate revenue by producing widgets/services per se. Is education the proper domain of the church? I thought we all agreed it was the family.

So, what are we left with? Family responsibility #1 ergo homeshooling is always an option. I don´t think I´ve seen anyone argue against homeschooling "“ only against homeschooling as the _only Christian_ option. From there what delegation is possible? I could see a privately run Christian based school that operates by the funding of the parents "“ ie. Profit based. I could see the school, if it wanted to be, put itself under the authority of a session of a church or appoint elders on the board so that it has some tie in yet still a separate sphere. I would also see a group of parents elect representatives to be on the board as well to represent the delegated authority of the parents"¦

So I guess what it comes down to is volunteerism. If the parents volunteerily pay for their kids to be schooled outside of their home (or receive assistance some other way "“ another post altogether) and the educational institution is Christian then would we all agree to that idea? As far as Gov. schools are concerned"¦what if they were voluntary "“ not requiring tax money and operated on a successful profit motive? Would we allow that? Or would we use the regulative principle and say not in their sphere?

Hopefully these meanderings make some sense of the situation if not then I will definitely profit from other´s critiques and additions!

(added for clarity's sake: what I'm wanting to see is the *normative* or ideal situation. I'm not getting into the discussions of individuals, current situations, or processes to evoke change. How can we discuss those if we don't all agree what it is we're working toward?)

[Edited on 6-21-2005 by crhoades]

[Edited on 6-21-2005 by crhoades]


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## Texas Aggie (Jun 21, 2005)

Unfortunately we have brought in more federal government involvement with public education. We have adopted the notion that education is a right of all children and not a privilege. Now your tax dollars are footing the bill for all types of children (illegitimate, illegal, reprobate, recalcitrant, whatever).

There was a time when education of our children was strictly a local matter.... schools were supported by community tax dollars and community ideals were very similar (like-minded people living together). 

Now, multiculturalism and tolerance have forced us to bring in the trash of other cultures as well as their religion... not to mention what the humanists have done. Booting out God is just the beginning. They demand that God is removed from the classroom at your expense and now your children and pocketbook get to reap the benefits.

Public education has gone down the toilet. Just take a look at what high school kids are reading in English (you will be astonished how western literature is being eroded). History classes suffer significantly... it's really flat out disgusting what is being taught (not to mention the severe lack of discipline). School districts will not give kids the boot for fear of lawsuits. Now the bad apples rule the roost and there is nothing you can do about it.

Academic institutions are highly corruptible by man and unholy influence. Throwing out the law of God is just the beginning. Our country is going to tolerate itself to death and Christians will be the first to get the boot or get jailed because of our intolerant attitudes towards deviant behavior.

There is no cure.... we are all going in one direction according to God's predetermined plan. Our country is reaping the last of God's blessings obtained by our forefathers and founders. We are about to see what happens when He gives us up to do those things as we desire.


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## LadyFlynt (Jun 21, 2005)

What is interesting is the excuse made for government schools in offering education to those that might not receive it. (ie in a christianized society). When you look back over history, children were more educated before there were "public" schools...some by tutor, some by parents...and even those who were children of illiterate parents FOUND a way to educate themselves and became inventors, etc. Now the supposed majority are "educated" and dumb as rocks.

Anyhow, going to throw in my own PERSONAL reasoning for homeschooling, even IF we were in a Theocracy.

1) I might not agree totally with every aspect of the theocracy and would still be concerned with the teachers instilling their own views into my children. I don't want my children to be taught that they are legalists or weird because the girls wear dresses, don't cut their hair, and cover their heads. Or my sons who don't play video games. This could go on and on and on with issues that we put into daily practice, especially since "christianity" is no longer united on these fronts.

2) Again, there are other issues....are you going to require vacs...oops, well, my kids won't be in your school. 

this list could go on and on....why? because there is no standard of practical christian living in this country anymore.

So basically, it heavily depends on what you determine to be NORMATIVE.

[Edited on 6-21-2005 by LadyFlynt]


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## crhoades (Jun 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Texas Aggie_
> Unfortunately we have brought in more federal government involvement with public education. We have adopted the notion that education is a right of all children and not a privilege. Now your tax dollars are footing the bill for all types of children (illegitimate, illegal, reprobate, recalcitrant, whatever).
> 
> There was a time when education of our children was strictly a local matter.... schools were supported by community tax dollars and community ideals were very similar (like-minded people living together).
> ...



While I appreciate your post and agree with almost all of it, I'm trying to keep this thread in the realm of what should the norm be and why. What types of education *should* be? Who *should* provide it. Numerous cases could be cited of the failure of the public/govenment schools. But likewise I am sure that we could find failures in the christian and homeschools as well. So I'm trying to keep the arguments from various failings but what would be the proper case hopefully in a systematic way.


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## crhoades (Jun 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> What is interesting is the excuse made for government schools in offering education to those that might not receive it. (ie in a christianized society). When you look back over history, children were more educated before there were "public" schools...some by tutor, some by parents...and even those who were children of illiterate parents FOUND a way to educate themselves and became inventors, etc. Now the supposed majority are "educated" and dumb as rocks.
> 
> Anyhow, going to throw in my own PERSONAL reasoning for homeschooling, even IF we were in a Theocracy.
> ...



Let's play make believe. Let's pretend that there was agreement across the board on vaccines, video games, head coverings, etc. and that no one's kids would get picked on regarding anything that might be adiaphora that was practiced differently across the board.

So let's address the IDEAL situation where all of those *personal* reasons might be dismissed. I am trying to distinguish and ascertain the structural and creational norms for education all things being equal. Trying to get to the heart of the education debate.


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## Myshkin (Jun 21, 2005)

I think the dividing line between homeschoolers and non-homeschoolers goes deeper than a pious and simplistic "they are God's children" catchphrase. I think it comes down to Kuyper/presuppositionalism/worldview thinking over and against Augustinian/classical/Two-Kingdoms thinking. (This is a thesis of mine I do not wish to take the time and flesh out here, it is just something I think about from time to time.) But, the point is that I think going to one verse here and there is simplistic and does not advance the discussion anymore than a Dispensational would quote 1 Thess. 1:10 for support of a 7 year earthly tribulation, and then say "see, that settles it!". There are more things involved than just going to scripture. Before being dogmatic and using prooftexts to persuade one another, we should tackle the issue in light of historical practice in the church, what is confessional, and what fits the analogy of faith principle in interpreting scripture.

1)Could we start defining what "christian "education actually is?
2) When God commands parents to raise their kids in the fear and admonition of the Lord does this included 2+2=4, or is it referring to spiritual matters (i.e. prayer, theology, bible knowledge, churchmanship, character in all spheres of life, etc.).
3) hypothetically, if public schools did not indoctrinate a philosophy, a psychology, a worldview, etc., but only taught the facts of each discipline (i.e. 2+2=4, 2 hydrogen molecules + 1 oxygen molecule = water, etc.) would public schools still be "of the devil"? Can a heathen still teach facts about God's creation? Can we learn the alphabet from a non-christian, or does the alphabet have christian only undertones to it?
4)Is it right for christians, in reaction to the secularist agenda of separating the disciplines into contradictory spheres, to overreact and tie up all disciplines into a "christian" education? Shouldn't we distinguish without confusing or separating?
5)If public schools are sinful simply because they are state sponsored, then to be consistent shouldn't we abandon all organizations or groups that are related to the state? (military, police, road construction etc.) Public schools might be wrong for other reasons, but the argument that they are wrong because they are state sponsored seems like we would have to tear Romans 13 out of our bibles.
6)even if we all came to a consensus that public school is wrong, does this mean it should be denominationally legislated or confessionaly mandated?
7)is public school inherently wrong or is it just wrong today seeing what it has become?
8)is the problem really the public schools, or is it the parents neglecting their responsibility before and after school? Are we pointing fingers at the world's sin when we should be pointing fingers at christian parents who neglect their kids before and after school, who reinforce the secualrism of the public schools in their daily lives, who let secularism into church theology and form, and who do not help their fellow church members when providence is "frowning" on them? Is the problem the state schools or is it the Church?

I think answering questions like these will help the discussion, because too often the discussion is held to a superficial level of name-calling, proof-texting, and emotional rhetoric for effect. If we are certain of our views we should not be afraid of allowing them scrutiny. Again, I think this issue is bigger than just homeschool vs. public school. It touches on the areas of monasticism, God's sovereignty, academics vs. spiritual education, vocation, providence, church and state, Romans 13, historical practice, confessional precedent, ethics, Kuyperian neo-calvinism vs. classical calvinism. The homeschool side needs to integrate these issues and more into their argument, instead of just using the pious phrase of "it's a parents responsibility" as if the public school side disagreed with that statement. Much more is involved than parental responsibility. No one is disagreeing with the "that it is", the dispute is over the "how it is to be done". Maybe my diagnostic questions for all of us to answer would shed some light on deeper issues and would cause some more charity in the discussion.

[Edited on 6-21-2005 by RAS]

[Edited on 6-21-2005 by RAS]


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## Texas Aggie (Jun 21, 2005)

My post shows the current "norm" and the first part details my position since I used the word "Unfortunately":

Here is what the norm should be (from my perspective):

Get the federal government out of education all together. Let local communities determine the curriculum of their school. For example, predominant Christian communities should dictate how their tax dollars are to be spent. If outsiders move in, they either conform, let their children attend while the parents keep their mouths shut or send their children elsewhere at their expense... not yours.

Parents have the ultimate responsibility to educate their children... home schooling is a wonderful option; however, it still requires additional expense to your current tax rate. Many home school groups gather their resources (i.e. parents of multiple children involved with home schooling teach specialties... you may have a participating physician teach anatomy or biology to a group of children). This is getting back to communal education involving citizens with "like minds." The federal government has no business with the matter (this is also an erosion of our freedoms).

To me, the only proper case is to let the local community decide (with your active participation as a Christian of course). You can supplement your child's education with additional material to conform them to your existing ideals. You can also pack your family up and move to another community which is aligned to your specific taste.

Who teaches your children lies with the ideals of the local school board and the curricula (based from your input and the majority). Hire those whose beliefs conform to the community.


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## Texas Aggie (Jun 21, 2005)

I also suppose you could say that the church as an academic institution has also failed... and failed miserably.


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## kceaster (Jun 21, 2005)

This is just my opinion, but it is somewhat informed. We have had our children in all three types of education environments. They were in public school until a couple of years ago, they were in private school for only a semester, and the rest has been at home.

The reservations we have with public school are the same as everyone else. Worldview is key in that discussion.

But the private Christian school is not necessarily the solution either. I am in favor of a Christian school only if it is a part of the community of faith and if the people running and teaching in the school are accountable to the elders of a local church. 

To us, education begins and ends with God. So, whether it's 2+2 or complex language, it must begin and end with man's chief end. If it doesn't have some practical Christian value, then we question it's relevancy. Now I know that some of you have your rotten tomatoes at the ready, but let me finish. Our society does demand math skills and knowledge of the sciences. But this is not our home. We're not saying we want our children to be complete misfits. They know how to work and understand basic life skills. But that doesn't mean that we educate them like the world just because it's part of the society we live in.

So, if everything we teach them, in essence, is theological in nature, then it is most appropriately taught at home or in the context of the local church and larger covenant community. If these safeguards are not in place and there is not this accountability, then we have given the authority over our children to those to whom it was not intended. The education of God's covenant children has taken place almost the same way over a few centuries of history. Why should we tamper with something that works and trade it for a higher standard of living or things that will be burnt up like stubble.

The education of our children is under our headship. We should not give that over except to the pastors and teachers God has appointed in the church. We find nothing in the Scriptures that warrants our giving our children to anything outside of that framework.



In Christ,

KC


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## LadyFlynt (Jun 21, 2005)

KC

I have trouble playing make believe on this, due to the diversity of the area I live in....I would have to submit my children to either catholics or baptists (and I was raised baptist)! Not happening! Sorry, but even within denominations there are differences.

Now if we were in a "perfect little community" (I've been in one these)...and here is the issue that it created (they had their own school)...it divided families turning children against their parents. If a parent found ideas went even slightly to the right or the left of the church's...the church had their children's minds, not the parents. Sad, considering I believe a covenanted family should be the base unit.

In a perfect setting, children could run free, wives would stay home, and men could support their families...and we would have fun homeschooling along with other families, nature walks and hikes, group activities, etc.

Wow, how rosey it would be.

REALITY CHECK!

[Edited on 6-21-2005 by LadyFlynt]


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jun 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by RAS_
> I think the dividing line between homeschoolers and non-homeschoolers goes deeper than a pious and simplistic "they are God's children" catchphrase. I think it comes down to Kuyper/presuppositionalism/worldview thinking over and against Augustinian/classical/Two-Kingdoms thinking. (This is a thesis of mine I do not wish to take the time and flesh out here, it is just something I think about from time to time.) But, the point is that I think going to one verse here and there is simplistic and does not advance the discussion anymore than a Dispensational would quote 1 Thess. 1:10 for support of a 7 year earthly tribulation, and then say "see, that settles it!". There are more things involved than just going to scripture. Before being dogmatic and using prooftexts to persuade one another, we should tackle the issue in light of historical practice in the church, what is confessional, and what fits the analogy of faith principle in interpreting scripture.



Allan, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts further on the distinction you have in mind between Kuyperian and Augstinian approaches. 

You (and Chris) are asking good questions here that really do help to get at the heart of the matter.



> 1)Could we start defining what "christian "education actually is?



Christian education is the training of children in the Lord, that is, learning all things in the framework of Biblical principles of truth and application. 



> 2) When God commands parents to raise their kids in the fear and admonition of the Lord does this included 2+2=4, or is it referring to spiritual matters (i.e. prayer, theology, bible knowledge, churchmanship, character in all spheres of life, etc.).



Facts are not neutral. The only reason 2+2=4 is because God created the world in such a way that that proposition is true. A relativist will tell you that 2+2 does not always equal 4. (I have been told this by someone important in my life.) History, the arts, math, science -- all fields of study are under the Lordship of Christ. This is Kuyperian thinking, as I understand it. Government education -- since all education is religious in nature -- is of the religion of secular humanism. There is no middle ground of neutrality in education between false religion and true religion.

It is certainly true that "all truth is God's truth." We can learn true information from all sorts of sources. However, children are much more impressionable and vulnerable than adults. An adult auditing a class at a secular institution to learn about computers and a child in public elementary school are not at the same place in terms of discernment. 



> 3) hypothetically, if public schools did not indoctrinate a philosophy, a psychology, a worldview, etc., but only taught the facts of each discipline (i.e. 2+2=4, 2 hydrogen molecules + 1 oxygen molecule = water, etc.) would public schools still be "of the devil"? Can a heathen still teach facts about God's creation? Can we learn the alphabet from a non-christian, or does the alphabet have christian only undertones to it?



I think an important question to ask is whether government has any God-given role in education? I do not see any warrant in Scripture for that to be the case. 

If this is true, then Christians are render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, but not that which is God's (ie., covenant children). 



> 4)Is it right for christians, in reaction to the secularist agenda of separating the disciplines into contradictory spheres, to overreact and tie up all disciplines into a "christian" education? Shouldn't we distinguish without confusing or separating?



Again, I think the Kuyperian approach to education is to see the Lordship of Christ over all fields and disciplines. 



> 5)If public schools are sinful simply because they are state sponsored, then to be consistent shouldn't we abandon all organizations or groups that are related to the state? (military, police, road construction etc.) Public schools might be wrong for other reasons, but the argument that they are wrong because they are state sponsored seems like we would have to tear Romans 13 out of our bibles.



Military and police are clear functions of Biblical civil government. Education is not. 



> 6)even if we all came to a consensus that public school is wrong, does this mean it should be denominationally legislated or confessionaly mandated?



I do believe that the church has oversight over family responsibilities (for example, if a father won't lead his family in worship, then the session has the right and duty to step in and work with the situation). As to what level of oversight is most Biblical, I think that oversight should begin at the session level. 



> 7)is public school inherently wrong or is it just wrong today seeing what it has become?



Obviously, it has gotten worse and worse over time. In 1962, school prayers were banned and now abortions are facilitated by school nurses. Sex education and violence are the norm today. However, the prayers being said in 1962 were not exactly orthodox and the 1950's-style public education while outwardly more conservative was not necessarily Christian.

Previously, I have noted that the Puritans of New England under the Olde Satan Deluder Acte established public schools with the goal of promoting education for the purpose of Bible literacy. I understand the historical context that lead to this development; however, Horace Mann and John Dewey in the following centuries turned public education into the exact opposite of what the New England Puritans had in mind. 

So, are public schools intrinsically evil or did they just develop that way? Obviously, a reasonable person can distinguish between a Puritan public school and a humanist public school. However, again, I would raise the question of what Scriptural warrant exists for the government to be involved in education at all? If there is none, then government has no authority in this sphere. Clearly, Scripture gives parents authority. I have said previously that parents may delegate that authority to tutors or private Christian schools. Modern public schools are not conducive to parental oversight. The NEA agenda will not allow that, PTA's notwithstanding. I recongnize that there are charter schools, gifted schools, special schools where parents have more involvement than average, but public schools are under the primary authority of 1) the local school board and 2) funding sources, usually federal, state and local. This is why I think that public education is an abdication of parental responsibility.



> 8)is the problem really the public schools, or is it the parents neglecting their responsibility before and after school? Are we pointing fingers at the world's sin when we should be pointing fingers at christian parents who neglect their kids before and after school, who reinforce the secualrism of the public schools in their daily lives, who let secularism into church theology and form, and who do not help their fellow church members when providence is "frowning" on them? Is the problem the state schools or is it the Church?



The failure of our children to be educated Biblically can be laid at many feet. Government should not take tax money to indoctrine our children; parents should not surrender their children to the state; public school teachers are too often beholden to the NEA and other secular agendas; the church ought to diaconally help poor parents who feel they are out of options for educating their children; the list goes on. Government education has filled a vacuum because parents and the church have not seen their responsibility in this area. 



> I think answering questions like these will help the discussion, because too often the discussion is held to a superficial level of name-calling, proof-texting, and emotional rhetoric for effect. If we are certain of our views we should not be afraid of allowing them scrutiny. Again, I think this issue is bigger than just homeschool vs. public school. It touches on the areas of monasticism, God's sovereignty, academics vs. spiritual education, vocation, providence, church and state, Romans 13, historical practice, confessional precedent, ethics, Kuyperian neo-calvinism vs. classical calvinism. The homeschool side needs to integrate these issues and more into their argument, instead of just using the pious phrase of "it's a parents responsibility" as if the public school side disagreed with that statement. Much more is involved than parental responsibility. No one is disagreeing with the "that it is", the dispute is over the "how it is to be done". Maybe my diagnostic questions for all of us to answer would shed some light on deeper issues and would cause some more charity in the discussion.
> 
> [Edited on 6-21-2005 by RAS]
> 
> [Edited on 6-21-2005 by RAS]



You're right. Education touches on many related issues, not the least of which is spheres of authority. It's a complicated situation that we have today in our society, but I think it is helpful to return to the Scriptures which clearly teach parental responsibility, do not provide government with the Biblical basis to intervene in this area, and teach us that there is no neutrality. 

There really is a war going on for the minds of our children. The Communist Manifesto, the Humanist Manifesto and the Baha'i Faith (I used to be a Baha'i) -- for example -- all teach compulsory universal public education as a basic tenet of their worldviews. That tenet is being applied in America today and children are the guinea pigs. Parents must awake to the knowledge of what is going on and what God requires of them as stewards of covenant children. 

Are public schools redeemable? Should parents send their children there as witnesses of the faith? I have no doubt that remarkable Christian children have indeed influenced their teachers and peers for good in public schools. But children are much more likely to be influenced than to influence others. They do not belong to Caesar and should not be rendered unto him.

In this discussion emotions can easily turn into rhetoric that is counterproductive. It is my aim to avoid that and if I fail please pardon me. It is something I am passionate about in part probably because of my own experience and in part because I see too many parents truly abdicating their responsibility to the detriment of future generations. It is equally sad to see the hurt caused by the church or the homeschooling movement when good parents are maligned unfairly and their message is not backed up by deeds and financial help. 

Let all sides remember that charity is how others will know that we are Christians. One of the primary goals of Christian education is to teach our children to speak the _truth_ in _love_. Let parents teach not only by precept but by example.

[Edited on 6-21-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]


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## Arch2k (Jun 21, 2005)

Who does the Bible tell to teach children?

Ephesians 6:4
And you, fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord. 

Genesis 18:19
For I have known him, in order that he may command his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the LORD, to do righteousness and justice, that the LORD may bring to Abraham what He has spoken to him.

Deut. 4:9-10
Only take heed to yourself, and diligently keep yourself, lest you forget the things your eyes have seen, and lest they depart from your heart all the days of your life. And teach them to your children and your grandchildren.

Deut. 6:6-9
And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. 7You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up. 8You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. 9You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates. 

Deut. 11:18-21
Therefore you shall lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul, and bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. 19You shall teach them to your children, speaking of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up. 20And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates, 21that your days and the days of your children may be multiplied in the land of which the LORD swore to your fathers to give them, like the days of the heavens above the earth. 

Ps. 78:1-4
Give ear, O my people, to my law; 
Incline your ears to the words of my mouth. 
2I will open my mouth in a parable; 
I will utter dark sayings of old, 
3Which we have heard and known, 
And our fathers have told us. 
4We will not hide them from their children, 
Telling to the generation to come the praises of the LORD, 
And His strength and His wonderful works that He has done. 

Proverbs 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go, 
And when he is old he will not depart from it. 

In the ideal world, homeschooling would be the only option. In the ideal world the government would not exist as it is a curse (a necessary evil in a sinful world). In the ideal world alot of things would be different! 

More later.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Jun 21, 2005)

Maybe it is because I have grown up in a socialist state that I read these things differently.

I see nothing in scripture telling government to get out of education but instead laws throughout the law aimed at helping the poor etc... (Proverbs 31:8-9 would be an example).

I also have no problem with a strong government which levies high taxes and pays for things with them (Paul when writing about obedience to government was not exactly living under a democracy, republic or any form of "free" society!). In fact I have been in countries where government troops wonder the streets with machine guns and brutally enforce the law. I have little problem with it - it might not feel nice but that doesn´t mean its wrong. Indeed the Romans were like this etc... yet Christ still said to pay taxes.

Now to move on now the background is laid. Parents are told, indeed commanded, to raise their children in the ways of the Lord. It is their responsibility! They do not _have_ to do everything concerning it. They are to protect their children also but that does not mean a parent must also be their doctor, dentist and nurse (well maybe in the US  we have free healthcare here). A father must provide for his family - he is responsible. If he is sick though he will have to delegate - he is still providing. A mother must look after the household - if she is sick she must delegate and the job is still done and her duty is fulfilled.

The government (just as the kings of old) must look after the poor and needy (indeed everyone seems to have been given this task). In this day and age when education is 'available' to be provided and paper is cheap etc... and good government will provide education. Parents can biblically delegate the teaching of their children to this government. A parent MUST still raise a child in the ways of the Lord but this can be done whether at a 'secular' school, a 'Christian' school or a 'home' school. It does not kill a child to hear worldly ideas (indeed it is best they hear them while children than be sheltered all their life and enter into the world and fall apart like so many do). A parent must show the child from a young age that these ideas are wrong.

Every society has a culture to one extent or another and there is no escaping it. Perhaps it is good for people to learn and understand other cultures as without this how shall the church produce people able to interact and evangelize.

I believe education in the broadest sense is a responsibility of central government which can regulate it and keep it uniform. It is the parents job to raise the child in the ways of the Lord and teach them why 'the world' is wrong. Indeed if I had not had such experiences in High School I would probably not be a Christian now let alone Reformed (putting predestination practically aside for that illustration). I faced the arguments of the world while I was young and my parents were there to teach me and guide me through it all.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Jun 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel_In the ideal world, homeschooling would be the only option. In the ideal world the government would not exist as it is a curse (a necessary evil in a sinful world). In the ideal world alot of things would be different!


What do you mean by the ideal world? If you mean before Adams sin then I would agree but if talking about in a 100% Christian society I would disagree. Christians still sin and order must be kept with final decisions being made by some power concerning discipline and things like road rules etc...


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## Arch2k (Jun 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Abd_Yesua_alMasih_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel_In the ideal world, homeschooling would be the only option. In the ideal world the government would not exist as it is a curse (a necessary evil in a sinful world). In the ideal world alot of things would be different!
> ...



Reading the origin of kingship gives us a picture of what governments are capable of:

1Sa 8:11 And he said, This is the privilege of the king who shall reign over you. He shall take your sons and shall appoint them for himself among his chariots, and among his horsemen. And they shall run before his chariots. 
1Sa 8:12 And he will appoint for himself heads of thousands, and heads of fifties; and to plow his plowing, and to reap his reaping; and to make weapons for war for him, and weapons for his charioteer. 
1Sa 8:13 And he will take your daughters for perfumers, and for cooks, and for bakers. 
1Sa 8:14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your olive-yards, the best, and give them to his servants. 
1Sa 8:15 And he will tithe your seed and your vineyards, and will give them to his eunuchs and to his servants. 
1Sa 8:16 And he will take your male slaves and your slave-girls, and the best of your young men, and your asses, and will use them for his own work. 
1Sa 8:17 He will tithe your flock, and you will be servants to him. 
1Sa 8:18 And you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves. And Jehovah will not answer you in that day. 
1Sa 8:19 And the people refused to listen to the voice of Samuel, and said, No, but a king shall be over us. 
1Sa 8:20 And we shall be, even we, like all the nations. And our king shall judge us and shall go out before us and fight our battles. 
1Sa 8:21 And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and spoke them in the ears of Jehovah. 
1Sa 8:22 And Jehovah said to Samuel, Listen to their voice, and you shall cause a king to reign over them. And Samuel said to the men of Israel, Each of you go to his city. 

For this reason, governments should be as limited and small as possible. Their purpose is to protect life, liberty and possessions. Anymore, and the curses listed above will be the result.

[Edited on 6-22-2005 by Jeff_Bartel]


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## Texas Aggie (Jun 23, 2005)

Jeff hit the nail on the head.

Not to get entirely off education, but.... remember, America is a capitalist nation. We are capitalist "pigs." In addition, our country was established on the grounds of "absolute minimal" government involvement in every aspect of our lives. This is what makes the government of the United States superior to all others. 

More government involvement = erosion of your personal freedoms. Education is no exception. The medical system is next (socialized medicine is on the rise and it's amazing to me how people think this is so wonderful). Why should I pay for your misfortune?

Government involvement in education is precisely the same. Why should I subsidize a "standardized" secular curricula when my community sees things much differently? This is absolutely ludicrous.

This is not the American way. Capitalists are 180 out from socialists. Unfortunately, socialism is creeping into our nation little by little and governmental perpetrators should be charged with treason and hanged.


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## Arch2k (Jun 23, 2005)




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