# More Patristics in Rutherford--Now Latin help as well



## NaphtaliPress (Jul 14, 2008)

As I noted on the last thread which seems to be a bust, I have one or two other Rutherford references in one of his sermons I would like to track down.
This one may be easier as I think I know what haystacks to look in but I haven't been able to find them in either the Church Fathers or Migne (and appears the Migne vol. 40 of Augustine is not on Google yet).

The use of this shall answer two questions. 1. Why does God suffer sin to be, and so much sin in England and Ireland? 2. Why does he suffer his people in covenant with him, to be a land of blood?
1. The former question is a general [one]. A wicked Marcion asks, why the Lord, who foresaw the event, did suffer Eve and the devil to confer; and if he was able, why did he not hinder sin to be, except he had been either envious, and would not, or weak, and could not hinder the enter[ance] of sin in[to] the world? Tertullian answers, because the Lord is free in his gifts. Augustine answers, Epistle. 59, _ad Paulinum, Quia voluit,_ because it was his will. Prosper and Hilarius both with Augustine, say, _the cause may be unknown; it cannot be unjust. _​I am assuming the Tertullian is probably a reference to Book II, maybe chapter sixish? (would be nice to get precise), of _The Five Books Against Marcion_. (ANCF, vol 3), and the Augustine, _De cura pro mortuis gerenda, ad Paulinum Nolanum, _but have a little doubt still as I cannot access volume 40 of Migne's Latina Patrologiae on Google Books. Another cite has some excerts but I don't think it is the full thing as it only guess to paragraph 21 or something (Epistle 21? not sure of the referencing here either). I don't think it is a reference to a letter (Epistles) but it may be. I don't have a start yet on Prosper or Hilarius. Again, any help or leads are greatly appreciated.


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## DTK (Jul 14, 2008)

Chris, 

I think the reference to Tertullian may be _ANF: Vol. III, The Five Books Against Marcion_, Book II, Chapter 25, where Tertullian states...


> If you make merry at God’s “going down,” as if He could not except by the descent have accomplished His judgment, take care that you do not strike your own God with as hard a blow. *For He also came down to accomplish what He wished.*



I don't understand your suggestion for the source of Augustine. Epistle 59 of Augustine is not in Vol. 40 of Migne, but _De cura pro mortuis gerenda_ ("On the Care to be had for the Dead") is. As you indicated, this work is found in Migne, PL 40:591-609. _De cura pro mortuis gerenda_ is 18 chapters in length, all of which are short. This work *is translated* and can be found in _NPNF, First Series_, Vol. III. 

BTW, I have all 221 volumes of Migne's Latin fathers. 

DTK



NaphtaliPress said:


> As I noted on the last thread which seems to be a bust, I have one or two other Rutherford references in one of his sermons I would like to track down.
> This one may be easier as I think I know what haystacks to look in but I haven't been able to find them in either the Church Fathers or Migne (and appears the Migne vol. 40 of Augustine is not on Google yet).
> 
> The use of this shall answer two questions. 1. Why does God suffer sin to be, and so much sin in England and Ireland? 2. Why does he suffer his people in covenant with him, to be a land of blood?
> 1. The former question is a general [one]. A wicked Marcion asks, why the Lord, who foresaw the event, did suffer Eve and the devil to confer; and if he was able, why did he not hinder sin to be, except he had been either envious, and would not, or weak, and could not hinder the enter[ance] of sin in[to] the world? Tertullian answers, because the Lord is free in his gifts. Augustine answers, Epistle. 59, _ad Paulinum, Quia voluit,_ because it was his will. Prosper and Hilarius both with Augustine, say, _the cause may be unknown; it cannot be unjust. _​I am assuming the Tertullian is probably a reference to Book II, maybe chapter sixish? (would be nice to get precise), of _The Five Books Against Marcion_. (ANCF, vol 3), and the Augustine, _De cura pro mortuis gerenda, ad Paulinum Nolanum, _but have a little doubt still as I cannot access volume 40 of Migne's Latina Patrologiae on Google Books. Another cite has some excerts but I don't think it is the full thing as it only guess to paragraph 21 or something (Epistle 21? not sure of the referencing here either). I don't think it is a reference to a letter (Epistles) but it may be. I don't have a start yet on Prosper or Hilarius. Again, any help or leads are greatly appreciated.


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## NaphtaliPress (Jul 14, 2008)

Thanks for the Tertullian David. Yes, I was confused because of the ad Paulinum in each reference. So is the reference to Augustine's Epistles then, and is 59 the correct number?



DTK said:


> Chris,
> 
> I think the reference to Tertullian may be _ANF: Vol. III, The Five Books Against Marcion_, Book II, Chapter 25, where Tertullian states...
> 
> ...


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## DTK (Jul 14, 2008)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Thanks for the Tertullian David. Yes, I was confused because of the ad Paulinum in each reference. So is the reference to Augustine's Epistles then, and is 59 the correct number?



Chris,

I am only suggesting that the reference I provided for Tertullian is correct. I could be mistaken.

As for Augustine, I am uncertain. Epistle 59 was not written to Paulinus. Epistle 59 was written to Victorinus. In Migne, Vol. 40, _De cura pro mortuis gerenda_ was written to Paulinus. The full Latin title of this work is _De cura pro mortuis gerenda ad Paulinum liber unus_ ("On the care to be had for the dead to Paulinus, one book").

The difficulty of determining what resource in Augustine to which Rutherford is referring is that he provides no specific quote either in English or Latin. If I had the specific Latin quote (or English) I believe I could find it.

As an aside (If it helps you), all of Augustine's letters/epistles are to be found in vol. 33 of Migne, i.e., except for his extended epistles that are so long that they have been classified as specific treatises.

DTK


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## NaphtaliPress (Jul 14, 2008)

I know; all Rutherford cites is _Quia voluit._ I'll take a another look at Migne 33. Any ideas on Prosper and Hilarius?


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## DTK (Jul 14, 2008)

NaphtaliPress said:


> I know; all Rutherford cites is _Quia voluit._ I'll take a another look at Migne 33. Any ideas on Prosper and Hilarius?



Chris, the phrase _Quia voluit_ occurs betimes in Augustine, and never once in _De cura pro mortuis gerenda ad Paulinum liber unus_.

Now, I also have the Migne volumes in which all the works of Prosper and Hilary are contained, but the references to these two fathers are so vague that I fear we will have to wait for glory to consult Rutherford.

If you can provide anything more specific, I am happy to serve you in any way I can.

DTK


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## NaphtaliPress (Jul 15, 2008)

David,
I found a reference in a book on the book of common prayer that gives the following reference on a different subject but does it give any more clue where to look?Possibly the use of the Lord's Prayer at the end of the Anaphora is not primitive: its position is variable, but there is testimony to its almost universal use in this position in S. Augustine's time. _Epistle_, 59 (149), 16, ad Paulinum. It was said by all present according to Oriental and Gallican Use, but by the celebrant only in the Roman Use. See below, p. 496.​I'm not certain what the 59, the 149 or the 16 refer to; pages or chapters or what?

Found at http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/Procter&Frere/ch12.htm


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## NaphtaliPress (Jul 15, 2008)

I have I think narrowed down the reference using one I found in the sermon by Lancelot Andrews.
This narrowed it down to letter 121 in Migne v. 33. Here is a screen shot. The words quia and voluit appear in paragraph 5 but not close together at all. This is either going to prove to be the letter or prove I think that the reference is just wrong in the Rutherford Sermon. Need Latin reading eyes on this.


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## NaphtaliPress (Jul 15, 2008)

Sorry, the image is not good. I'm reworking it.


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## NaphtaliPress (Jul 15, 2008)

See if this works.
http://img373.imageshack.us/img373/5034/augustine1gc2.jpg


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## NaphtaliPress (Jul 15, 2008)

Hold the phone. Apparently there is a typo and the Andrews reference is to 149. CXLIX. Sigh. But I did find a paragraph in it where the phrase "quia voluit" occurs.


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## NaphtaliPress (Jul 15, 2008)

Ok. Here is the shot of chapter 1 paragraph 6 that is as good a candidate as I have for this Augustine reference. At least the phrase quia voluit occurs. The comment is needing to say in effect so and so happened because it is God's will. See above.
http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/6360/augustine2sd7.jpg


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