# Praying to Saints



## puritanpilgrim (Sep 5, 2008)

Would you consider praying to the dead, or asking dead people to pray for you necromancy? I had a buddy tell me, "Hey, I ask you to pray for me. Why can I ask Paul?" My two thoughts are: It's not Biblical. And it's speaking to the dead. Which I think would be necromancy.



Sorry for all of the posts. I just wanted to get thoughts of everyone else, while I collect my own. I am very rarely original. I like to borrow from the intellect and wisdom of others to make up where I lack.


----------



## FrielWatcher (Sep 5, 2008)

I think that the saints are to be revered, their lives and faith admired and emulated. They had it so much worse than us most of the time and their perseverance was long. 

I don't think that Paul is a proper conduit God for Christ says "to pray to your Father who is in heaven." Jesus came to be that mediator and the Spirit utters those thing which we cannot to the Father for us. Who more do we need? (cf. Matthew 6:6, 6:9, Luke 11:2 and Romans 8:26). As Christ teaches us to pray, "Our Father, who is in heaven..." - commanded to pray to the Father. 

Prayers for the dead is apocryphal. 2 Maccabees 12:43-45 which is where the doctrine of purgatory comes from as well. I see it as the dead are dead and judged - Heb 9:27


----------



## panta dokimazete (Sep 5, 2008)

This is a moot point - I have said this before and I will say it again - why would I want anyone else in Heaven interceding for me when I have Christ Himself and the Holy Spirit?

Romans 8:26-27
Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.

And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Romans 8:34
Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised— who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.


----------



## Presbyterian Deacon (Sep 5, 2008)

panta dokimazete said:


> I have said this before and I will say it again - why would I want anyone else interceding for me when I have Christ Himself and the Holy Spirit?
> 
> Romans 8:26-27
> Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.
> ...


----------



## toddpedlar (Sep 5, 2008)

panta dokimazete said:


> This is a moot point - I have said this before and I will say it again - why would I want anyone else interceding for me when I have Christ Himself and the Holy Spirit?



Because the Holy Spirit works through our prayers for one another. There is nothing wrong with wanting each other's intercessory prayer - it is a necessary part of the church (without it we are WEAK).

The point with prayers to the Saints in heaven is that by doing so we assume they are omniscient (which they are not) and/or they can hear us (which the Bible gives us NO reason to assume).


----------



## panta dokimazete (Sep 5, 2008)

Sorry, I should have been more precise and I'll go refine. Why would I want anyone _*in Heaven*_ interceding for me when I have Christ and the Holy Spirit?


----------



## toddpedlar (Sep 5, 2008)

panta dokimazete said:


> Sorry, I should have been more specific and I'll go refine. Why would I want anyone _*in Heaven*_ interceding for me when I have Christ and the Holy Spirit?



Well, the same reason you'd want people on Earth praying for you.

The problem is not that you want finite humans praying for you... the problem is imagining that those who are passed can hear your requests for them to intercede.

(what should be noted, though is that Catholics that I've known don't just ask St. Timothy to pray for them - they ask him to DO SOMETHING - so it's not just asking for the intercessions of the saints but the INTERVENTIONS of the saints)


----------



## Christusregnat (Sep 5, 2008)

puritanpilgrim said:


> Would you consider praying to the dead, or asking dead people to pray for you necromancy? I had a buddy tell me, "Hey, I ask you to pray for me. Why can I ask Paul?" My two thoughts are: It's not Biblical. And it's speaking to the dead. Which I think would be necromancy.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry for all of the posts. I just wanted to get thoughts of everyone else, while I collect my own. I am very rarely original. I like to borrow from the intellect and wisdom of others to make up where I lack.





Aaron,

You have hit on a fundamental point; asking the living to pray is not "praying" to the living; it is asking the living to pray to our common Father in Heaven, through our common Mediator, Jesus Christ, in the Spirit's power.

If such people want to be the Apostle Paul's buddy, why don't they have him over for dinner? Why not invite him to your church? Why? Cuz he's dead. To compare the lives of dead men with the lives of the living is the highest form of irrationalism, and borders on/is necromancy, as you have pointed out. I will ask Paul to pray for me when he comes over for supper. I don't communicate with dead men.

Also an excellent point is that since Paul is not locally present, and he is not omniscient, why should I expect him to hear me when I cry? I shouldn't; it's irrational. Christ hears everything, cuz He's God. That's why He doesn't need to come over for dinner (in a localized presence) for Him to hear me. Hallelujah!

Cheers,


----------



## VirginiaHuguenot (Sep 5, 2008)

http://www.puritanboard.com/f15/worship-saints-6575/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f16/prayer-saints-8954/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f29/origins-prayer-saints-12895/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f15/prayer-saints-23486/


----------



## panta dokimazete (Sep 5, 2008)

toddpedlar said:


> panta dokimazete said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, I should have been more specific and I'll go refine. Why would I want anyone _*in Heaven*_ interceding for me when I have Christ and the Holy Spirit?
> ...



I understand the point you are trying to make, but my approach (I think) is more fundamental. 

Where in Scripture does it refer in any way to intercession in Heaven by anyone other than Christ and the Holy Spirit?


----------



## toddpedlar (Sep 5, 2008)

panta dokimazete said:


> toddpedlar said:
> 
> 
> > panta dokimazete said:
> ...



Of course there IS no such reference. But since when do the false doctrines of the Romanist church come from Scripture?


----------



## panta dokimazete (Sep 5, 2008)

hmm - true, true...I guess my presuppositions are showing!


----------



## ManleyBeasley (Sep 6, 2008)

The bible clearly states that communication with the dead is sin and forbidden. Deut 18:11-12 forbids it. Its Romanist blasphemy.


----------



## ModernPuritan? (Sep 6, 2008)

but isnt necromancy and attempt to find out or predict the future?

the papist assert that the saints are more alive than they were on earth- as they are in Heven. The papist assert that they are not asking to know the future but that they are sending their prayer requests not only to the girl in the next pew, but to those in heaven also so that both the girl next pew over, and the saint in heaven are both beeseching God on your behalf


----------



## ModernPuritan? (Sep 6, 2008)

toddpedlar said:


> panta dokimazete said:
> 
> 
> > toddpedlar said:
> ...



there is still the question how the early church fathers all seemed to be catholic- and many of them had the scriptures or good parts of it??......


----------



## ModernPuritan? (Sep 6, 2008)

panta dokimazete said:


> This is a moot point - I have said this before and I will say it again - why would I want anyone else in Heaven interceding for me when I have Christ Himself and the Holy Spirit?
> 
> Romans 8:26-27
> Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.
> ...



along those lines- why share prayer requests with anyone at all- when Christ is interceding- why do we have "Pray for me, i need a job, or my cow died threads" when we have Christ? Not to diminish Christ- but isnt abolishing prayer requests consistent with your question?


----------



## jambo (Sep 6, 2008)

Praying to the saints is idolatory. Prayer assumes the hearer is omniscient as our words are often not vocalised. Prayer assumes the hearers omnipresence as I may be praying to a saint the same time someone else is at the oppostie end of the world. Prayer assumes the person it is directed to can actually do something. It is also idolatrous because the assumption is made because our trust in God to answer is transferred to another.

Praying to the saints is Gnosticism whereby we because a person feels they cannot go direct to God they go through various intermediaries. Anyone who has lived in a RC country would see this practice alive and well today. There is but one mediator-Christ Jesus

Praying for the dead is sentimental superstition and again apparent in RC culture. As we read the scriptures anyone who has died is beyond the scope of prayer
Asking living saints to pray for you is entirely different as we pray and intercede for one another.


----------



## Solus Christus (Sep 6, 2008)

ModernPuritan? said:


> along those lines- why share prayer requests with anyone at all- when Christ is interceding- why do we have "Pray for me, i need a job, or my cow died threads" when we have Christ? Not to diminish Christ- but isnt abolishing prayer requests consistent with your question?



The clear answer is we know by example this is what we should do. Reading Paul's epistles we see both praying for other believers and Paul asking for other churches to pray for him (2Co 9:14, 2Co 13:9, Col 1:3, Col 1:9, Col 4:3, 1Th 5:25, 2Th 1:11, 2Th 3:1, Phm 1:6). But why do we bother? Well we are also told to share in the pain of others. To express compassion to our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. To make their concerns our concerns. Prayer sanctifies us and changes our hearts and our minds to long for Godly things. And in those times when God graciously answers our prayers for others, do we not then confess with our lips how glorious He is?

In short there are many reasons why we should ask for prayers requests and to also ask others to pray for us.


----------



## toddpedlar (Sep 6, 2008)

ModernPuritan? said:


> toddpedlar said:
> 
> 
> > panta dokimazete said:
> ...



I'm not sure how to say this gently, so I won't try.

What the early church fathers believed, if it cannot be supported in Scripture, is IRRELEVANT!


----------



## panta dokimazete (Sep 6, 2008)

ModernPuritan? said:


> panta dokimazete said:
> 
> 
> > This is a moot point - I have said this before and I will say it again - why would I want anyone else in Heaven interceding for me when I have Christ Himself and the Holy Spirit?
> ...



nope - we would be disobedient to God's Word if we did that.


----------



## ManleyBeasley (Sep 6, 2008)

1. Who cares about the motive of speaking with the dead? The bible forbids it.
2. Which church fathers pray to the dead? Saying they are catholic can be interpreted many different ways and as our wise brother a few posts back indicated; who cares?
3. I must say this being an issue really puzzles me.


----------



## FrielWatcher (Sep 6, 2008)

Again what about Hebrews and its explicit voicing - a man dies once, then judgment. How can we get around this and say that prayer for that dead, judged person will be of avail? Is not God's holy judgment enough and we should revere that judgment - not matter the case. 
I agree with Mr. Beasley's point #3!


----------



## Quickened (Sep 6, 2008)

I get the idea that sometimes people think if they ask saints to pray for them somehow their prayers are going to have more merit before God (ie. work better) or get through to God better. People can be superstitious sometimes.

I think alot of times people need to remember a few things

1. One verse that comes to mind is



> 1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;



There are no intercessors aside from Christ in the bible. No Co-Mediatrix. Nada.

2. Sometimes things dont happen right away. In a society where everything is instant from emails to coffee i think people lack patience which is an important part of prayer. God's time is not our time.

3. Some times the answer to prayer is "no".

This is the impression i have got over the years while discussing and thinking about this very issue. We should look to God for all our needs, wants, desires, prayers etc and no where and no one else.


----------

