# Running late for Church..



## BJClark (Oct 31, 2008)

Why is it, when people are running late for work, they go anyway, when they are running late for an appointment they go anyway, yet, when it comes to running late for church, they decide not to go at all; as opposed to walking in late?

For me, I look at it if I'm running late, I want to go anyway, so what if I miss a few announcements, or miss a song or two...I'm there for the preaching and
teaching of God's word..

So what is it, that causes folks, to opt out of walking in late to church?


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## matt01 (Oct 31, 2008)

You already know the answer...church is not as important as all of those other things.


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## toddpedlar (Oct 31, 2008)

a bigger "embarrassment factor"? Perhaps deep down they know that they have been negligent in preparing for corporate worship, and would rather not face the fact that everyone in church will thereby know it and "see their dirty laundry"? The same kind of social pressure doesn't really exist for other individual appointments, etc.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Oct 31, 2008)

I dunno...even Alfred P. Doolittle thought it was important to get to church on time (at least once).


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## smhbbag (Oct 31, 2008)

> You already know the answer...church is not as important as all of those other things.



Or, even more unfortunately, the purpose of being at church is to be thought of highly. If that is no longer possible because you're late, why go?


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## Herald (Oct 31, 2008)

Bobbi, because the Lord's Day is not a priority for these people. If we treat the worship of God as though it is a recreational activity, it's easy to rationalize coming in late or skipping it altogether.

NOTE: I am not referring to genuine emergencies or acts of providence that make a person late or keep them from worship.


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## Blue Tick (Oct 31, 2008)

BJClark said:


> Why is it, when people are running late for work, they go anyway, when they are running late for an appointment they go anyway, yet, when it comes to running late for church, they decide not to go at all; as opposed to walking in late?
> 
> For me, I look at it if I'm running late, I want to go anyway, so what if I miss a few announcements, or miss a song or two...I'm there for the preaching and
> teaching of God's word..
> ...



It's possible that people are not properly preparing themselves for the sabbath therefore their priorities are misaligned. In my own life I strive to prepare for the sabbath Saturday evening this helps gathering for corporate worship with God's people on Sunday. Just to echo what Bill said, there are emergencies and acts of providence that prevent people from getting to chuch. However, I think your referring more to those who are always late or just don't show up.


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## TimV (Oct 31, 2008)

Some churches won't let people in who are late. The doors close, and Deacons or ushers won't let them in. Or they will be chided from the pulpit by a pastor that doesn't want the sermon to be interrupted. In South Africa it's common to be singled out from the pulpit for coming in late. It happened to me once when I had car trouble, and I didn't like it. Coming back here to a liberal PCA where people pretty much came in whenever they wanted, I think I prefer the South African way. There was one couple from Latin America that literally never came on time, and the college kids with their coffee in hand wandering in only after an Elder pleaded with them.....I found it as disruptive as the young woman who would constantly whisper to her friend through the service.

I guess ideally people would be trained, and if someone came in late it would be obvious to everyone that there was an emergency, and there would be no criticism. A good way of training would be a couple men at the door who would explain things.


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## Semper Fidelis (Oct 31, 2008)

TimV said:


> Some churches won't let people in who are late. The doors close, and Deacons or ushers won't let them in. Or they will be chided from the pulpit by a pastor that doesn't want the sermon to be interrupted. In South Africa it's common to be singled out from the pulpit for coming in late. It happened to me once when I had car trouble, and I didn't like it. Coming back here to a liberal PCA where people pretty much came in whenever they wanted, I think I prefer the South African way. There was one couple from Latin America that literally never came on time, and the college kids with their coffee in hand wandering in only after an Elder pleaded with them.....I found it as disruptive as the young woman who would constantly whisper to her friend through the service.
> 
> I guess ideally people would be trained, and if someone came in late it would be obvious to everyone that there was an emergency, and there would be no criticism. A good way of training would be a couple men at the door who would explain things.


That's interesting about the South African Church. I think it is right and proper for Church to be a place where men/women are concerned about attending and others are concerned when they do not attend or have not prepared themselves properly. As long as people understand where that concern comes from.

It is very frustrating to see such lack of care for worship.

If we are ever late we would much rather suffer the looks that people give us for being late (and apologize for disrupting worship) than miss worship altogether. The problem is that, for most people, they view worship as something that is for them and so they don't think much about taking a week off. I also think it points to the "show" that many put on that wants everyone to see them as all put together instead of in desperate need of grace just like the rest of us sinners.


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## BJClark (Oct 31, 2008)

Blue Tick;



> However, I think your referring more to those who are always late or just don't show up.



Not necessarily always late, but even on occasion something comes up and they are running late, so they just stay home.

It could be any number of reasons, your forgot to set the alarm, or the kids are being a pill, you and spouse had a spat that morning, and things just aren't going right that morning, and because of it, your running a little late. 

I'm not talking thirty minutes late, I'm talking even five or ten minutes. You know your leaving the house late, and there are a few lights that you'll hit because they seem to stay red a little longer..so you just don't go.


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## Timothy William (Oct 31, 2008)

At my church, people are constantly walking in late. 

Maybe, if they are late for work they are still expected to go, and if they don't they will face greater penalties than if they are late, where as if they don't go to church people will assume they were unable to make it for some legitimate reason.

I wouldn't like to see latecomers singled out from the pulpit (but then, I don't like to see anyone singled out from the pulpit, for any reason) but I don't think it is unreasonable to quietly ask any persistent latecomers to ensure they are on time. 

I should add, I have arrived late on too many occasions myself. It is a very easy habit to get into, especially when services start by singing four songs, three of which you won't like.


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## Ex Nihilo (Oct 31, 2008)

toddpedlar said:


> a bigger "embarrassment factor"? Perhaps deep down they know that they have been negligent in preparing for corporate worship, and would rather not face the fact that everyone in church will thereby know it and "see their dirty laundry"? The same kind of social pressure doesn't really exist for other individual appointments, etc.



As someone who struggles with this problem, I can say that this is dead-on. It has nothing to do with _consciously_ undervaluing corporate worship.

But I dislike showing up late anywhere, though I often do. I'm not sure that I'm more likely to skip church because I'm late than I would be to skip class. I see the distinction as being between one-time appointments that I can't reschedule (like a dentist appointment or interview) and regular events (like class). 

I am glad you started this thread. It is something I have to work on.


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## Blue Tick (Oct 31, 2008)

If people are consistently late I don't see a problem with the elders or the pastor gently admonishing people to be on time. I don't now if it is actually appropriate from the pulpit but after worship in private may help. I remember one time my wife and I were late to a church class and our pastor gently encouraged us that we were supposed to be there at a specific time. We were convicted. Therefore, we do make the effort to be on time.


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## BJClark (Oct 31, 2008)

TimV;

At our church, if they are in the middle of announcements, prayer or a song, or something the ushers have you wait at the door until it's over, then they open the door for you, that way your not interrupting that part of worship.


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## Grace Alone (Oct 31, 2008)

One of my faults is running a few minutes late and it is something I am working on. I hate being late (5 min.) to church because I certainly wouldn't want anyone to think I don't value worship. But ultimately, God knows my heart and it is His opinion that matters. So I'd rather go and be a few mintes late than to neglect worship totally. I fear God more than men.


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## Ex Nihilo (Oct 31, 2008)

Blue Tick said:


> If people are consistently late I don't see a problem with the elders or the pastor gently admonishing people to be on time. I don't now if it is actually appropriate from the pulpit but after worship in private may help. *I remember one time my wife and I were late to a church class and our pastor gently encouraged us that we were supposed to be there at a specific time.* We were convicted. Therefore, we do make the effort to be on time.



This is helpful, and it can be done without accusing people of not caring enough to show up on time -- which may be the problem, but it could also be a more general time management problem. Either way, the carelessness is sinful, but I think it could be discouraging to people to have their motives impugned.


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## TimV (Oct 31, 2008)

> At our church, if they are in the middle of announcements, prayer or a song, or something the ushers have you wait at the door until it's over, then they open the door for you, that way your not interrupting that part of worship.



Yes, that was the way it was in the EV Free church I grew up in, which gave me the idea of something like that being the most balanced way of handling the problem. The doors were closed at the OPC church I've just become a member of, and a few months ago my oldest son was late, saw the doors closed with an usher outside, and turned around and drove home. I thought he would be mad, but that actually helped him decide to start going to that church, as it was a refreshing change from what he saw as chaos and disrespect.


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## Ex Nihilo (Oct 31, 2008)

TimV said:


> > At our church, if they are in the middle of announcements, prayer or a song, or something the ushers have you wait at the door until it's over, then they open the door for you, that way your not interrupting that part of worship.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that was the way it was in the EV Free church I grew up in, which gave me the idea of something like that being the most balanced way of handling the problem. The doors were closed at the OPC church I've just become a member of, and a few months ago my oldest son was late, saw the doors closed *with an usher outside*, and turned around and drove home. I thought he would be mad, but that actually helped him decide to start going to that church, as it was a refreshing change from what he saw as chaos and disrespect.



They leave someone outside to keep people from coming in?


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## Webservant (Oct 31, 2008)

I live 1/6th of a mile from our place of worship, so I have no excuse. If I ever am late, we're in big trouble because I run the sound. 

To answer the question directly, I would go anyway.


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## TimV (Oct 31, 2008)

> They leave someone outside to keep people from coming in?



He thought so, from his SA experiences, but it actually like the church Bobbi goes to and the one I grew up in.


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## jawyman (Oct 31, 2008)

I have been in this situation before, and I agree hearing God's word is too important to miss. My family has just walked in quietly and sat down without missing a beat. Being late is better than not attending worship at all. This is also a lesson in how we shepard our time.


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## Josiah (Oct 31, 2008)

Ex Nihilo said:


> TimV said:
> 
> 
> > > At our church, if they are in the middle of announcements, prayer or a song, or something the ushers have you wait at the door until it's over, then they open the door for you, that way your not interrupting that part of worship.
> ...



At my former OP church, we had elders that would stand by the doors in the foyer. They were able to hear the word preached, because of a speaker system that we had wired from the sanctuary to the foyer. I had been late before, knowing that if you don't get in their on time you wont find any seating (at least none where we wanted to be, that would draw the least attention) and had sat in the foyer. It was really shameful and it kinda jolted me into being more punctual.


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## Herald (Oct 31, 2008)

I am currently teaching Sunday School and the Tuesday night bible study. Stragglers come in up to fifteen minutes late on a regular basis. I used to delay the start of my teaching for about five minutes to accommodate the stragglers. No longer. I start promptly. Recently there were just two people in the room when I started teaching. About ten others made their way in over the next fifteen minutes. I just kept going. I think the message is getting across.


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## BJClark (Oct 31, 2008)

Ex Nihilo;



> As someone who struggles with this problem, I can say that this is dead-on. It has nothing to do with _consciously_ undervaluing corporate worship.
> 
> But I dislike showing up late anywhere, though I often do. I'm not sure that I'm more likely to skip church because I'm late than I would be to skip class. I see the distinction as being between one-time appointments that I can't reschedule (like a dentist appointment or interview) and regular events (like class).
> 
> I am glad you started this thread. It is something I have to work on.



I know a few college professors that will shut and lock the door if your late, don't bother going into their class that day and it doesn't matter what the reason is.

for me, I'd rather be late for worship, than not go at all..it's like my entire week if off if I miss it..


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## toddpedlar (Oct 31, 2008)

North Jersey Baptist said:


> I am currently teaching Sunday School and the Tuesday night bible study. Stragglers come in up to fifteen minutes late on a regular basis. I used to delay the start of my teaching for about five minutes to accommodate the stragglers. No longer. I start promptly. Recently there were just two people in the room when I started teaching. About ten others made their way in over the next fifteen minutes. I just kept going. I think the message is getting across.



That's exactly what I have to do when teaching, either Sunday School or my college courses. There is an appointed time, and if the people can't get there on time, there is no reason to penalize the rest who did arrive on time.


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## Ex Nihilo (Oct 31, 2008)

BJClark said:


> Ex Nihilo;
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's telling that I was never late for classes with such professors. I try to be as punctual to church, but somehow my mind, especially when I'm snatching an extra ten minutes of sleep, knows that it will be "okay" if I cut it close on time.


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## Timothy William (Oct 31, 2008)

North Jersey Baptist said:


> I am currently teaching Sunday School and the Tuesday night bible study. Stragglers come in up to fifteen minutes late on a regular basis. I used to delay the start of my teaching for about five minutes to accommodate the stragglers. No longer. I start promptly. Recently there were just two people in the room when I started teaching. About ten others made their way in over the next fifteen minutes. I just kept going. I think the message is getting across.



Our Tuesday night bible study tends to have people come late, but they either come directly from work and can't get away any earlier, or have had to rush home after work, eat dinner in a hurry and then still be late.


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## BJClark (Oct 31, 2008)

Ex Nihilo;



> It's telling that I was never late for classes with such professors. I try to be as punctual to church, but somehow my mind, especially when I'm snatching an extra ten minutes of sleep, knows that it will be "okay" if I cut it close on time.




There was a few times I was, my kids missed their school bus, and I had to take them to school, and thus it made me run a little late, one instructor talked so loud you could hear her outside the class, so I sat outside the class and took notes...LOL

People walking past looked at me strange, but honestly, they didn't know if I was just early for the next class or waiting on someone inside the class to come out, and I didn't make a big deal of it, I just sat there taking my notes..


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Oct 31, 2008)

Stonewall Jackson was only late to a prayer meeting once, according to his wife, and then declined to enter because he did not wish to disturb the others. Normally, punctuality was his middle name. His family devotions, which included his servants, started at 7 am daily and were not delayed even if his wife was late. The Sunday school class he held for black slaves every Lord's Day afternoon started at 3 pm precisely, upon which time the doors were closed, further admittance barred, and prayers commenced.


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## E Nomine (Oct 31, 2008)

For the past couple of years, my family has often been late for Sunday service (we struggle with getting our toddler out of the house timely). Our regular church service starts with a half hour of worship music, and many members meander in throughout this period. It helps that it's a huge congregation with a special back section for famlies with babies.

I subscribe to the old cliche "better late than never, but better never late."


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## Herald (Oct 31, 2008)

E Nomine said:


> For the past couple of years, my family has often been late for Sunday service (we struggle with getting our toddler out of the house timely). Our regular church service starts with a half hour of worship music, and many members meander in throughout this period. It helps that it's a huge congregation with a special back section for famlies with babies.
> 
> I subscribe to the old cliche "better late than never, but better never late."



Do I understand your situation? Yes. Can you take the necessary steps to be in church on time? Yes, you can.


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## E Nomine (Oct 31, 2008)

Obviously, barring emergencies, it's possible to get to any appointment on time. I'm just expressing my agreement with the initial poster...

on time > late > not going at all


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## Herald (Oct 31, 2008)

E Nomine said:


> Obviously, barring emergencies, it's possible to get to any appointment on time. I'm just expressing my agreement with the initial poster...
> 
> on time > late > not going at all



I understand. My daughter is nearly grown, but she was a toddler too. I credit my wife for getting up early and having Bethany ready for church. We seldom were late because she was diligent in this area. Did I need a shot of coffee in the morning to pry open the eye lids? You betcha!


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## Pergamum (Oct 31, 2008)

toddpedlar said:


> a bigger "embarrassment factor"? Perhaps deep down they know that they have been negligent in preparing for corporate worship, and would rather not face the fact that everyone in church will thereby know it and "see their dirty laundry"? The same kind of social pressure doesn't really exist for other individual appointments, etc.



If there is a bigger embarrassment factor then, in an odd logic, people could miss church when they are late because they value it more. Sort of like the people think, "Ah no...I've done ruined it...."


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## Pergamum (Oct 31, 2008)

E Nomine said:


> Obviously, barring emergencies, it's possible to get to any appointment on time. I'm just expressing my agreement with the initial poster...
> 
> on time > late > not going at all



I am often late to many appointments here. Here it is more culturally acceptable to be late than to brush off last minute guests or people you meet on the road. That is why some churches here have long periods of singing perhaps. 


Westerners value time more, and some cultures value relationship more, and so if you meet a friend on the road (or another sick person comes to your door 15minutes till the time you need to leave) than one is socially bound to have a good excuse not to pay them attention.


About TimV's South African church experience, was this due to African cultural expectations or was this a heavily Boer-influenced church?


I also do not like the pastor chiding people from the pulpit and I have also heard this before (in America) and I think that may give your answer to the reason why people don't want to come in late for chuch, the lack of good people skills on the part of the pastor who forgets his purpose is to serve but thinks he is to dominate a congregation. 





A related thought: We often put punctuality up there as a moral value and then blow off relationships so that we are not late. How important is punctuality for family affairs (and isn't church a family, or do we clock in like we do at a job?)


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## TimV (Oct 31, 2008)

> About TimV's South African church experience, was this due to African cultural expectations or was this a heavily Boer-influenced church?



Boers and Black Africans almost never mix in churches. I've never seen it once in a Reformed church, and that's one of the reasons, time value as you put it. Although it has very little to do with kindness to people you meet walking along the road, and lots to due with the sort of responsibility it takes to have a prosperous culture.

I've posted here before about some of the Bantu I got to know, and how that if they'd been born here in the US they would be wealthy professional people. But their culture holds them back. Even in places like Zimbabwe with the farm take overs, there still aren't any native Bantu running commercial farms. It's not from lack of intelligence, it's that their culture holds them back in all sorts of ways. 

Nepotism if you spin it could also be made to seem more humanitarian than Western ideals, but it really isn't compasionate if you look at the big picture. Punctuality is the same. On the farms and in factories, you can punish people for not showing up on time, and you do to break them of that particular cultural habit. With churches it's a bit more difficult, like with the Latin American couple who never came on time that I spoke of above. My Hispanic workers show up on time, otherwise I leave them without work for the day, and they know that. It only takes a time or two, and then they show up. Meeting a friend on the way to work doesn't cut it, and in my mind it should be the same for a church function. Chaos is seductive, and it needs to be constantly fought against.


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## Pergamum (Oct 31, 2008)

Good thoughts...


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## Theoretical (Oct 31, 2008)

Ex Nihilo said:


> toddpedlar said:
> 
> 
> > a bigger "embarrassment factor"? Perhaps deep down they know that they have been negligent in preparing for corporate worship, and would rather not face the fact that everyone in church will thereby know it and "see their dirty laundry"? The same kind of social pressure doesn't really exist for other individual appointments, etc.
> ...


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## KMK (Oct 31, 2008)

This was not an issue for Frank


[video=youtube;D9ieLSWu8_E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9ieLSWu8_E[/video]


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## kvanlaan (Oct 31, 2008)

> Do I understand your situation? Yes. Can you take the necessary steps to be in church on time? Yes, you can.



Try doing it with nine children. When you're late, the embarassment factor is _huge_. So we leave at 8:45 on the nose. Children with no shoes on their feet can be shod on the way, but eleven people walking in late is too much an incident to be overlooked. Not going is not an option, so being on time is the only option (from a social point of view). I also would hate to have it on my conscience that I was making more of an effort to make it to work on time than I was to making it to church on time.


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## TimV (Oct 31, 2008)

With 7 kids it simply was never an issue. No trouble at all to show up on time to everything. I guess it just goes to show you, some of the huge problems I have to deal with like anger are probably no sweat to many "type B's" who struggle with punctuality.


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## Herald (Oct 31, 2008)

kvanlaan said:


> > Do I understand your situation? Yes. Can you take the necessary steps to be in church on time? Yes, you can.
> 
> 
> Try doing it with nine children. When you're late, the embarassment factor is _huge_. So we leave at 8:45 on the nose. Children with no shoes on their feet can be shod on the way, but eleven people walking in late is too much an incident to be overlooked. Not going is not an option, so being on time is the only option (from a social point of view). I also would hate to have it on my conscience that I was making more of an effort to make it to work on time than I was to making it to church on time.



Wow. I yield the floor to the man with the nine children!


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## kvanlaan (Nov 1, 2008)

> Wow. I yield the floor to the man with the nine children!





I just figure that if I can do it, _anybody_ can. I am _not_ an organized person (though my wife is). It is perhaps just the idea of being late to just about anything with such a crowd that keeps us on time (for the most part) for everything.


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## Herald (Nov 1, 2008)

Kevin, a former boss of mine had eleven children (he now has twelve). He purchased a commuter van that is used to transport commercial passengers. That's what he transported his family in to wherever it was they were going.


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## kvanlaan (Nov 2, 2008)

Bill, we're in a 12 passenger van with 11 people and, Lord willing, Gabriel Teije van der Laan will arrive on the 12th of December and fill that last space. From there, the next jump is me getting a bus license and us buying a commercial commuter van. (!!)


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## Herald (Nov 2, 2008)

For what it's worth I started my Sunday school lesson promptly at 9:15 am this morning. True to form, half the class came in about ten minutes into it. You can see them all making their way awkwardly to their sits, grabbing the outlines I prepared and fumbling their way to where I was in lesson. Some are getting the message, some aren't.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Nov 3, 2008)

If you don't turn up to work for a day you loose your job.

If you arrive late to work you can apologize and say "car trouble" or "I will work on my day off" or something similar and everything is fine.

If you miss an appointment you generally have to pay for it (ie. at the doctor's) or you disappoint a friend. 

If you are late for an appointment you still get something out of it - the doctor still sees you but for less time or your coffee with a friend needs to be shortened.

If you are late for church you are embarrassed, looked down on others for being unorganized, socially set aside, told off by the elders... etc...

If you just don't go to church that day you miss 1.92% of Sunday services for that year and the loss can be written off as an unforeseen difficulty.

So you see, at the end of the day, people have a heavy incentive to make work or appointments if they are running late, but are encouraged to not go to church at all if they are in the same position rather than arrive late.


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## Timothy William (Nov 3, 2008)

TimV said:


> With 7 kids it simply was never an issue. No trouble at all to show up on time to everything. I guess it just goes to show you, some of the huge problems I have to deal with like anger are probably no sweat to many "type B's" who struggle with punctuality.



I am hopelessly unpunctual, with everything, except when I have had a job for which I absolutely cannot be late. But I've never struggled with anger at all, and I don't think I've shouted at anyone in my life (or not since I was a small child).


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## JonathanHunt (Nov 3, 2008)

Hey Kevin, isn't it time to update the sig a little?


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