# low cost ATS accredited Seminary around the east cost



## bobtheman (Oct 1, 2015)

Hello,

I'm am looking to attend a four year degree in biblical studies (or the likes, apologetics, pastoral ministries, etc) I am just finishing my two year degree. My main goal is to obtain an Mdiv. I live in/around Charlotte NC. 

My preliminary research has shown that the accreditation (with regards to theological studies) that is honorable and desirable is ATS. 

My immediate selection of the 'best' school in my area is SEBTS and SBTS. Both awesome schools. BUT, they are both expensive, NOT a title four school which means no federal student loans, and they dont work with the state for any state based programs to doge federal over site. I understand that, I also understand that these school are no longer a viable option for me. 

I am wondering, does anyone know of any ATS accredited schools with a four year degree program that has online (distance) options that is close to CLT NC? I found a school called APEX which is very affordable, however they are only accredited by TRACS, a international accrediting agency. My concern is that the degree wouldn't hold up to higher education standards and wouldnt be accepted by a future employer or graduate school.


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## Clark-Tillian (Oct 1, 2015)

If you want to go the online route, why does it need to be close to you geographically? Just curious.
Belhaven University has online options and is respected in the Reformed world. 
http://online.belhaven.edu/?mkwid=s...sity&mp_mt=e&gclid=CIym7YfOosgCFQaPaQoduJ8IXg


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## Clark-Tillian (Oct 1, 2015)

Sorry, when you wrote two year degree I thought you were still at the undergrad level and were planning WAY ahead.


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## Edward (Oct 1, 2015)

My advice would be to avoid the undergraduate Biblical studies degree, and and get a degree you can use if you need to. Then go seminary to get the MDiv. 

There may be times when you are between calls (voluntarily or involuntarily), or you may be called to a tentmaking ministry. Being able to have something to fall back on to support you family can be useful, and the time in a secular school could help expose you to things that would prove useful in your ministry.


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## Clark-Tillian (Oct 1, 2015)

However, RTS Charlotte is right in your backyard. 
http://www.rts.edu/charlotte/


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## arapahoepark (Oct 1, 2015)

Edward said:


> My advice would be to avoid the undergraduate Biblical studies degree, and and get a degree you can use if you need to. Then go seminary to get the MDiv.


I can't recommend this enough. I initially wanted to go the undergrad Bible college route and I am so thankful I didn't. I saved money and got some good life experience and a degree that I can use or at least one that taught me many things that are needed in today's jobs.


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## arapahoepark (Oct 2, 2015)

While it is a few years old this should give you some indication: http://www.ats.edu/uploads/resources/institutional-data/annual-data-tables/2012-2013-annual-data-tables.pdf


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## bobtheman (Oct 2, 2015)

arap said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> > My advice would be to avoid the undergraduate Biblical studies degree, and and get a degree you can use if you need to. Then go seminary to get the MDiv.
> ...



The counter argument is, If I have an undergrad in biblical studies I can enter into an mdiv program and complete that degree at an accelerated pace (or with higher competency classes) because I'm not going in at ground level. I've noticed some schools are offering accelerated mdiv programs for those who have an undergrad in biblical studies or the like.

For me, I,ve spent two years going to school to learn something I really wanted to do when I graduated. But now that I've heard the calling - to do anything else would be a waste of my time, and possibly asking God to be placed on Hold. My heart isn't in my prior studies. 

Also, 
_"Do not enter the ministry if you can help it,” was the deeply sage advice of a divine to one who sought his judgment. If any student in this room could be content to be a newspaper editor, or a grocer, or a farmer, or a doctor, or a lawyer, or a senator, or a king, in the name of heaven and earth let him go his way; he is not the man in whom dwells the Spirit of God in its fulness, for a man so filled with God would utterly weary of any pursuit by that for which his inmost soul pants. (26-27)" Spurgeon. _


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## bobtheman (Oct 2, 2015)

Clark-Tillian said:


> If you want to go the online route, why does it need to be close to you geographically? Just curious.
> Belhaven University has online options and is respected in the Reformed world.
> http://online.belhaven.edu/?mkwid=s...sity&mp_mt=e&gclid=CIym7YfOosgCFQaPaQoduJ8IXg



Belhaven is listed as around 400 USD per credit hour. That would be around 6k per semester before books and other fees. Assuming you did summer classes - that would be close to 20k a year. This just seems way to expensive to me. Maybe I'm just out of touch with the cost of higher education.


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## bobtheman (Oct 2, 2015)

Clark-Tillian said:


> If you want to go the online route, why does it need to be close to you geographically? Just curious.
> Belhaven University has online options and is respected in the Reformed world.
> http://online.belhaven.edu/?mkwid=s...sity&mp_mt=e&gclid=CIym7YfOosgCFQaPaQoduJ8IXg



Also, I guess it doesnt have to be close by, but it sorta does. From what ive read, the accreditation from ATS requires that the degree programs have some seated hours and NOT be fully only. I'm ok with doing small travel (5 hours or so) for a week at a time. What most schools are calling J-Terms. Where you travel out for a week or two to meet that requirement.


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## Bill The Baptist (Oct 2, 2015)

While ATS is certainly the gold standard, just because a school does not have ATS accreditation does not neccessarily mean that graduate schools will not accept it. I would recommend making a list of graduate schools you would like to attend and then inquire as to whether these schools will accept a degree from whatever undergraduate institutions you are considering. This will likely increase your options exponentially.


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## Jake (Oct 2, 2015)

You might not want to focus on just ATS accredited institutions if you are looking at doing an undergraduate degree, as often undergraduate degrees in biblical studies are offered by non ATS accredited institutions (i.e., accredited otherwise). For instance, I attended Covenant College, which is regionally accredited and well ranked and considered in its class of schools, but because it is primarily a liberal arts institution, it does not have ATS accreditation. It does have a Biblical and Theological Studies degree and related majors and concentrations (Biblical Languages, Religion & Philosophy, etc.). Now, Covenant has no on-line program, so it would not be the answer, but my point is that ATS accreditation might not be the right thing to look for with an undergraduate program. 

In fact, if you are going to an accredited seminary for your master's degree, you probably have more leeway in where you get your undergraduate and what you get it in. Many seminaries accept virtually any bachelor's degree as a prerequisite.


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## bobtheman (Oct 2, 2015)

Jake said:


> You might not want to focus on just ATS accredited institutions if you are looking at doing an undergraduate degree, as often undergraduate degrees in biblical studies are offered by non ATS accredited institutions (i.e., accredited otherwise). For instance, I attended Covenant College, which is regionally accredited and well ranked and considered in its class of schools, but because it is primarily a liberal arts institution, it does not have ATS accreditation. It does have a Biblical and Theological Studies degree and related majors and concentrations (Biblical Languages, Religion & Philosophy, etc.). Now, Covenant has no on-line program, so it would not be the answer, but my point is that ATS accreditation might not be the right thing to look for with an undergraduate program.
> 
> In fact, if you are going to an accredited seminary for your master's degree, you probably have more leeway in where you get your undergraduate and what you get it in. Many seminaries accept virtually any bachelor's degree as a prerequisite.



that's a good point. 

I guess my next question would be, have any of you heard of APEX school of theology? Do you have any opinions of this school? 

They are only accredited by TRACS - which makes me leary, verses some place like Lee university which isn't accredited by ATS, but is regionally accredited (unlike APEX), but they (LEE) is much more expensive.


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## Jake (Oct 2, 2015)

bobtheman said:


> Jake said:
> 
> 
> > You might not want to focus on just ATS accredited institutions if you are looking at doing an undergraduate degree, as often undergraduate degrees in biblical studies are offered by non ATS accredited institutions (i.e., accredited otherwise). For instance, I attended Covenant College, which is regionally accredited and well ranked and considered in its class of schools, but because it is primarily a liberal arts institution, it does not have ATS accreditation. It does have a Biblical and Theological Studies degree and related majors and concentrations (Biblical Languages, Religion & Philosophy, etc.). Now, Covenant has no on-line program, so it would not be the answer, but my point is that ATS accreditation might not be the right thing to look for with an undergraduate program.
> ...



Maybe some people with graduate school experience can chime in, but I think more weight will be placed as to where you get your Master of Divinity than just your Bachelor's degree. At least some weight will be. I am not familiar with Apex. Also, I would not recommend studying theology at Lee. They are Pentecostal and I have heard weird stories about what is taught there (assuming you mean the Lee in the Chattanooga area).

If you do want to an undergraduate degree in Bible, make sure it is from somewhere worth studying from. There are lots of different places you could go, that might fill a box, that would not be the best place to learn. 

Another thing to consider is that if you are a later in life learner, some schools might admit you to a Divinity program with just an Associate's degree. And I would recommend at least giving consideration to RTS Charlotte since you're so nearby.


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## arapahoepark (Oct 2, 2015)

bobtheman said:


> arap said:
> 
> 
> > Edward said:
> ...


 
I have been by more than a few seminary professors that a undergrad degree in theology or whatever, is not the way to go. Rather a degree in liberal arts of some sort.


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## Edward (Oct 2, 2015)

bobtheman said:


> The counter argument is, If I have an undergrad in biblical studies I can enter into an mdiv program and complete that degree at an accelerated pace



If you want to hit the ground running, take some Greek as an elective in your undergrad degree program. 

My more specific advice would be to get the cheapest available BA from an in-state rate public college, in a degree area that would provide future job opportunities as needed, and using elective hours to target your ultimate plan. Avoid debt. 

It is my recollection that at least some of the SBC seminaries give discounts to SBC members, and your church might be able to help out if they recognize your call. Not sure if you've taken that into account in looking at the numbers. As someone else noted, there is a good reformed seminary in Charlotte, although it does lean Presbyterian.


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## Clark-Tillian (Oct 2, 2015)

Hmm. I see I was correct, you're still doing undergrad work. So, here's my input. I've got my undergrad degree in Bible/theology, plus liberal arts work before and after. So, I've got the equivalent of a triple major (Bible/Theology, English, psych). Go the liberal arts route. Anything you learn is good. Go for a double or triple major. Frankly, if I had to do it all over, I'd hit mathematics a lot harder than I did; it helps with critical thinking skills. A degree in Bible/Theology will not necessarily get you the MDiv quicker. 

1. Learn English grammar inside out; get Warriner's old school grammar books from Amazon and master it.
2. Peter Kreeft "Socratic Logic"; essential for thinking and analytical skills. I'd do this before Greek. 
3. Develop a rigorous English bible reading schedule. I'd aim for 1 solid hour per diem to start. Read carefully--make it count. You can read Mark 24x per year by reading one chapter. You can easily move through the Epistles once per month. You can read the Psalter through once per month. 
4. Get a good OT and NT Introduction and get very familiar with the background. 
5. Get Morton Smith's Harmony of the Westminster Standards. You can memorize the SC in two years time with minimal effort. 
6. Machen's Greek grammar is still the best intro In my humble opinion. However if you learn Greek badly the habits will hurt you in seminary. Be careful. You can certainly learn the pronunciations and then master the vocab, this will make the grammar easier in sem. 

If you do this, you'll be ahead of the game when you enter seminary.


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## Edward (Oct 2, 2015)

Clark-Tillian said:


> I'd hit mathematics a lot harder than I did; it helps with critical thinking skills.



Also will put you in higher demand if you ever need to turn to substitute teaching.


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## reaganmarsh (Oct 5, 2015)

I began my undergrad in Religion/Christian Counselling, discovered my college was theologically liberal, and wound up majoring in English. Yes, postmodernity and feminism ruled the day in that course of studies, but I was able to develop good habits of reading and writing, along with critical thinking and communication. That degree has served me well when I was a teacher, when I worked in business, and certainly during seminary and pastoral ministry.


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## yeutter (Oct 5, 2015)

Clark-Tillian said:


> Hmm. I see I was correct, you're still doing undergrad work. So, here's my input. I've got my undergrad degree in Bible/theology, plus liberal arts work before and after. So, I've got the equivalent of a triple major (Bible/Theology, English, psych). Go the liberal arts route. Anything you learn is good. Go for a double or triple major. Frankly, if I had to do it all over, I'd hit mathematics a lot harder than I did; it helps with critical thinking skills. A degree in Bible/Theology will not necessarily get you the MDiv quicker.
> 
> 1. Learn English grammar inside out; get Warriner's old school grammar books from Amazon and master it.
> 2. Peter Kreeft "Socratic Logic"; essential for thinking and analytical skills. I'd do this before Greek.
> ...



Amen to the suggestions offered by Pastor Bowen. I would suggest Joel Beeke's *Reformed Confessions Harmonized* instead of Morton Smith's Harmony of the Westminster Standards, but that is a minor quibble.

Any undergraduate degree can take you to seminary but if you get one that helps your critical thinking skills that helps. Math is an excellent choice, so is computer science and English. If you have not already mastered Latin, take it.


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## bobtheman (Oct 5, 2015)

yeutter said:


> Clark-Tillian said:
> 
> 
> > Hmm. I see I was correct, you're still doing undergrad work. So, here's my input. I've got my undergrad degree in Bible/theology, plus liberal arts work before and after. So, I've got the equivalent of a triple major (Bible/Theology, English, psych). Go the liberal arts route. Anything you learn is good. Go for a double or triple major. Frankly, if I had to do it all over, I'd hit mathematics a lot harder than I did; it helps with critical thinking skills. A degree in Bible/Theology will not necessarily get you the MDiv quicker.
> ...




I could continue on my current track with my current degree, but not only am I no longer passionate about that field - I would be studying material that I have no intentions of practicing.


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## Unoriginalname (Oct 6, 2015)

bobtheman said:


> I could continue on my current track with my current degree, but not only am I no longer passionate about that field - I would be studying material that I have no intentions of practicing.



You may have little intentions of practicing but providence may dictate that there will be times in your life where you will have to, if you want to provide for your family. Time between pastoral calls, churches lacking the funds to be able to fully support you; having a degree in those instances can prevent you from needing two or three low paying jobs to provide.


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## Edward (Oct 6, 2015)

bobtheman said:


> I could continue on my current track with my current degree, but not only am I no longer passionate about that field



I've had some jobs that were really great. I was very good at what I was doing, and I really enjoyed the work and the folks I worked with. Then I've had jobs that were pure drudgery. Had to start drinking coffee in the mornings and energy drinks in the afternoon to keep going. To summarize, it's really nice when your wants and needs match up, but if you think you are owed a job you are passionate about, you probably have some growing up to do.


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## Clark-Tillian (Oct 6, 2015)

Edward said:


> bobtheman said:
> 
> 
> > I could continue on my current track with my current degree, but not only am I no longer passionate about that field
> ...



Believe it or not...you'll be forced to take seminary classes that might require 20 shots of espresso; it's not all Warfield, Calvin and Quintillian. Sadly, seminary might not require you to touch ANY of those authors in any depth whatsoever, and two of the three will unlikely be on any test. I had a required class for which I'd mastered the material long ago (due to undergrad work and professional experience), but wasn't permitted to test out of. It met once per week for about 3 hours--in mid afternoon. I sat carefully to the side, participated with respect, and generally paid attention as the prof was very adept. However, I spent most of the time with my Greek, or systematics on a bookstand. I loved that bookstand, and after 19 years it finally had to be tossed this summer. It's demise almost made me weep.


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## Clark-Tillian (Oct 6, 2015)

_I could continue on my current track with my current degree, but not only am I no longer passionate about that field - I would be studying material that I have no intentions of practicing._

May I ask what field you are currently studying? Just curious.


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## yeutter (Oct 6, 2015)

I have visited Churches abroad, that were first established by American tent makers, whose civilian job was a teacher or medical worker. Their ability to fill that job was used,in God's providence, to establish Churches in countries that were essentially closed to missionaries. Being an English teacher, or a Math teacher, or a Nurse, or a Computer Specialist or any number of other fields, may open doors for you that might otherwise be closed. 

These are evil times. In the future men may need to send men out to reestablish Churches. Having a useful vocation may be of more value then we presently know.


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## arapahoepark (Oct 6, 2015)

Remember that there is a reason seminaries are graduate level.


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## Jake (Oct 6, 2015)

arap said:


> Remember that there is a reason seminaries are graduate level.



They weren't always, at least for the Divinity degree. It used to be commonly a Bachelor of Divinity. 

Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF300T using Tapatalk


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## Philip (Oct 6, 2015)

If you have a good support network, I might recommend Gordon-Conwell Charlotte's Partnership Program. I paid for my GCTS education with it, and few schools have anything like it. Plus Charlotte has Donald Fairbairn, who is one of the best Protestant patristics scholars out there right now.

And for undergraduate, yes, get a liberal arts degree. Something that will at the very least round out your education and critical thinking. Philosophy, for instance, is much more practical than it sounds.


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## arapahoepark (Oct 7, 2015)

Jake said:


> arap said:
> 
> 
> > Remember that there is a reason seminaries are graduate level.
> ...



It was a BD degree because of its fundamental nature, being a professional degree as opposed to one being a thesis. Nevertheless, many of the older professors who have a BD tend to always had a BA previously.
Today the BD is awarded to those who don't have undergrad degrees and are at least over 35. I.E. life experience.


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## Contra_Mundum (Oct 7, 2015)

Since we're recommending, and all... http://www.gpts.edu (not ATS accred.)


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## bobtheman (Oct 8, 2015)

Jake said:


> arap said:
> 
> 
> > Remember that there is a reason seminaries are graduate level.
> ...



Ive noticed a few schools still offering BDIV degrees.


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## bobtheman (Oct 8, 2015)

Clark-Tillian said:


> _I could continue on my current track with my current degree, but not only am I no longer passionate about that field - I would be studying material that I have no intentions of practicing._
> 
> May I ask what field you are currently studying? Just curious.



Information security - computer science degree - sometimes called information assurance. I am particularly focused on physical security (B&E), network intrusion detection, and malware analysis.


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## bobtheman (Oct 8, 2015)

Contra_Mundum said:


> Since we're recommending, and all... http://www.gpts.edu (not ATS accred.)



GPTS is one of those schools who market their dislike towards accreditation as a whole as a way to prevent government over site of their educational practices. I'm not saying its a bad school, I'm saying they are unwilling to submit towards accreditation which vouches for the quality of their services and any degree I would receive from there. 

Looking towards the future, I'm fairly certain secular employers would turn me away for having a non accredited degree from a religious organization.


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## arapahoepark (Oct 8, 2015)

bobtheman said:


> Contra_Mundum said:
> 
> 
> > Since we're recommending, and all... http://www.gpts.edu (not ATS accred.)
> ...



GPTS quality is far above many other ATS schools and widely regarded as one the best reformed seminaries. There is no lack of quality education.


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## Jake (Oct 8, 2015)

bobtheman said:


> Contra_Mundum said:
> 
> 
> > Since we're recommending, and all... http://www.gpts.edu (not ATS accred.)
> ...



It depends on the purpose of the M.Div. For ordained ministry, you should have different priorities than if you want to go on to later PhD programs. Depending on what church you might seek ordination in, there are plenty who would value a degree from somewhere like GPTS over many (or even most) accredited programs. There's other good non-accredited programs that are highly valued depending the church, including Whitefield Seminary and Reformed Baptist Seminary. Many denominations also have a recommended place of study for chiefly their own students that is the main route students go, including my denomination (FCC), the FPCNA, and the PRCA. 

If you want to get a doctorate degree, a M.Div is not strictly necessary; you might can get an M.A. from a seminary. Also, there is the Th.M degree, which is often pursued for further more graduate level studies after the M.Div which can make it easier to get into a good doctorate program.

Disclaimer: I'll reiterate again I'm not in this trajectory and have only a BA in an unrelated field. So others may have better insight than me. 

Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF300T using Tapatalk


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## TylerRay (Oct 8, 2015)

bobtheman said:


> Looking towards the future, I'm fairly certain secular employers would turn me away for having a non accredited degree from a religious organization.



If you are planning on engaging in secular work, you are right to take this into consideration. I know of a man with multiple degrees (including a PhD) from an unaccredited seminary with very high academic standards. He was let go from his teaching job because his degrees were not from an accredited institution. He now works as an electrician.


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## TylerRay (Oct 8, 2015)

It might help if you were to lay out your general plan for your education. If you play your cards right, you can get an unaccredited bachelor's degree, and use it as the basis for an accredited Master's degree. Or you can use and unaccredited M.Div. and use it as the basis for an accredited Th.M.

A couple of possible routs for picking up accreditation along the way would be:
B.A., Reformation Bible College (unaccredited) -> M.Div., RTS Charlotte (accredited)
B.A., Reformation Bible College (unaccredited) -> M.Div.,Greenville Seminary (unaccredited) -> Th.M., Puritan Seminary (accredited)


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