# Why do I not see Lutherans here



## Henry from Canada (Nov 29, 2005)

I do not mean any offense by this question: Why do I not see Lutherans on this board?

The reason I ask is that there is a Lutheran church that I might be able to attend, depending on finances and health.

I assume that the Lutheran church in Canada would be based on the teachings of Martin Luther. Therefore, I would assume it would be just like the Reformed Church. Therefore, I would expect to see Lutherans on this board.

Am I missing something?


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## Me Died Blue (Nov 29, 2005)

Henry, normally with a personal question like this, I would not _solely_ give you a link to another discussion without at least a brief reiteration in the current thread as well. But in this case, this exact question was asked and briefly discussed so recently (literally yesterday) that you can go about half-way down this page and perhaps continue that discussion if you still have questions.


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## Henry from Canada (Nov 29, 2005)

Boy, is my face red.

I did not read that thread.

I always assumed that a Reformed church would agree with any church that was named after Martin Luther. I always figured that John Calvin and Martin Luther agreed on pretty well all aspects of theology.


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## Me Died Blue (Nov 29, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Henry from Canada_
> Boy, is my face red.
> 
> I did not read that thread.



 No problem, I honestly find myself in the same position many times in the middle of a thread.



> _Originally posted by Henry from Canada_
> I always assumed that a Reformed church would agree with any church that was named after Martin Luther. I always figured that John Calvin and Martin Luther agreed on pretty well all aspects of theology.



While Calvin and Luther themselves differed on some issues (e.g. the elements of worship, the precise relationship between Law and Gospel, the physical presence in the Supper, etc.), they were in much further agreement than truly Reformed and truly Lutheran believers could ever be today. That is because most of the differences did not come until after Luther's death, one top-of-my-head example being Melanchthon's denial of the doctrines of grace.


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## Henry from Canada (Nov 30, 2005)

Hello Chris,

Please don't take offense to this, but I find those differences relatively minor. In fact, many of the differences on this board I find relatively minor.

I do not mean any disrespect towards you or anyone else by saying this.

When I have dealt with professing Christians in the past, I think I have seen much more substantial differences.

Example:
The person who first invited me to church, in 1991, doesn't think man is total depraved (Romans 3) or that God can harden hearts (Pharaoh).

I am sure that in your travels you have also seen many alternative teachings.

I guess what surprises me, as I delve deeper into theology, is that people who agree on the basic nature of salvation, God and man can still have such heated discussions.

Now I realize that theology divides, but I would think that if a person agrees on Romans 3, Romans 9, and John 6, then they basically share the same faith.

That is, these passages, in my humble opinion, state that all men are hopelessly corrupt, but God has a foolproof plan to save, bless and sanctify the Elect. (I know how crude this wording sounds.)

From my experience, very few people can even agree with me on this.
When I told one Pentecostal leader that the Bible says God hardened the Pharaoh's heart, that person just said that those passages don't mean what I think they do. I couldn't even get this person to agree that God hardens hearts, let alone that man is totally depraved. That is a huge difference in theology.

I mean absolutely no offense by this. I guess the issue in my mind is: Does this mean I can't attend a Lutheran church? 

I know very little about Lutheran churches. I always assumed they were just like Reformed churches. I figured that compared to Catholics, Pentecostals, etc., Lutherans and Reformers basically brothers.


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## Bladestunner316 (Nov 30, 2005)

It really depends on where your Lutheran church stands on these issues. I got to a Dispensational-arminian church that is slowly reforming unintentionally. I figure I can deal with this so long as the church does not delve into theological hell. 

I look at the church's Paul was ministering too and see how much worse off they were. If I didnt have this church then I would probably go to the KentOPC sound church, reformed, Ive met the people and they are very welcoming, I've got friends there, the Pastor is scandinavian, etc.....  

Ussually when we think or I think of Lutheran churchs is transubstantiation(sp?) and liberalism. 

But check it out no church is going to be perfect. But see where they stand on issue Key issues. Total depravity is a huge issue, not beleiving it lessens the value of Christ's atonment in my opinion. 

Your a good guy and I enjoy having you on the board. 

In Christ,
Blade


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## cupotea (Nov 30, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Henry from Canada_
> I do not mean any offense by this question: Why do I not see Lutherans on this board?
> 
> The reason I ask is that there is a Lutheran church that I might be able to attend, depending on finances and health.
> ...



Well, I'm a Lutheran. And a pastor to boot. Though I hold firmly to the 5 points, I also hold just as firmly to the Real Presence (including the human nature of Christ) in the elements of Holy Communion. In fact, I've just posted on John 6 to show how it works.

Don't know if I'm not welcome or not. Don't know if I should be thrown off the list. But here I am.


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## ChristopherPaul (Nov 30, 2005)

This thread was helpful:

http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=10764#pid205192


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## Scott Bushey (Nov 30, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Globachio_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Henry from Canada_
> ...



Kevin,
You are more than welcome here.


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## Saiph (Nov 30, 2005)

> Please don't take offense to this, but I find those differences relatively minor. In fact, many of the differences on this board I find relatively minor.



You are not alone.


Welcome to the board.


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## cupotea (Nov 30, 2005)

> _Originally posted by PAIN IN THE NECK_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Globachio_
> ...



Thanks! I must admit that I'm a rather ... uh, unusual kind of a Lutheran. Though once affiliated with the ELCA (I was a papist prior to being Lutheran), I was converted about 11-12 years ago. Now I'm independent.

But I'm studying the Westminster Standards through the OPC's Ministerial Training Institute. G. I. Williamson is the prof. Thoroughly enjoying it. Now it's just a matter of prayerfully waiting for the Lord's guidance.


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## BobVigneault (Nov 30, 2005)

> Please don't take offense to this, but I find those differences relatively minor. In fact, many of the differences on this board I find relatively minor.



Not to hijack the thread but I believe it's very important and time well spent that we disagree over minor issues. I used to think order of worship was a minor thing. Our differences must be brought to light and tested. Romans 14 does not say, "Lighten up everyone and just argue about important things." Romans 14 says, "Form an opinion, a strong one.

Quoting myself from another thread_

"....if you are fully convinced in your own mind that you shouldn't (insert conviction here) out of honor and devotion to God then for YOU to (insert conviction here) would be a sin. I may even be sinning if I try to encourage you to (insert conviction here). People can and often do hold to exact opposite convictions yet still honor Christ in those convictions. This is our privilege and commandment.

Our first question must always be 'Am I fully convinced in my own mind that I am honoring Christ in this thing?" This is where debate on the board is crucial. We test and prove and separate biblical conviction from opinion and whimsy.

[Edited on 11-30-2005 by maxdetail]


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## Scott (Nov 30, 2005)

Henry: I think the larger issue you need to investigate before going to a Lutheran church is to determine whether they are conservative or liberal. In the US, the largest Lutheran denomination, the ECLA, is dominated by liberal theology. It is death. There are some strong Lutheran denominations, such as the Missouri Synod and the Wisconsin Synod, which are strong, orthodox denominations. Kevin can tell you more and correct anything I said here. But that is my understanding. 

Scott


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## Scott (Nov 30, 2005)

"Don't know if I'm not welcome or not. Don't know if I should be thrown off the list. But here I am."

You are welcome! I wish we had more friendly dialogue between orthodox reformed and Lutheran.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Nov 30, 2005)

> _Originally posted by PAIN IN THE NECK_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Globachio_
> ...


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## SRoper (Nov 30, 2005)

"Now I'm independent."

Ah, I was wondering about that. Am I right in thinking that LCMS does not allow five-pointers to teach?


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## Henry from Canada (Nov 30, 2005)

Well, knowing that there are Lutherans here makes me feel better, however, before I visit this church I want to have a better understanding of what this particular Lutheran church believes in. If we agree on Romans 3, Romans 9 and John 6, then I hope to visit this church in the near future (health permitting.)

In reply to Bob: I do not think it is wrong to debate 'minor' points. What I find distressing is how these minor points can flare up into heated arguments. 

Scott: You mentioned liberal or conservative theology. I hear the terms liberal and conservative used in so many contexts, I am not even sure what the terms mean anymore. 

When I hear the term liberal, I think politically correct theology that rejects Romans 3 because it hurts the self esteem of people, etc. Or, as one person said, 'I am a Christian but it is obvious that we descended from apes.' Is this what you mean by liberal?

The church I am considering I have visited once before 5 years ago. The sermon was about how churches don't market themselves properly. That sermon did not impress me too much, however, if possible I would like to visit this church again.

Thanks for not blowing me away on a sticky subject.


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## cupotea (Dec 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by SRoper_
> "Now I'm independent."
> 
> Ah, I was wondering about that. Am I right in thinking that LCMS does not allow five-pointers to teach?



LCMS does not allow five-pointers ... period. Can't preach or teach.

I was once affiliated with the ELCA (which doesn't care if your a five-pointer or an atheist), but I left them in 1997. They probably still have me listed on their roles, but the fact is I'm plain ol' independent.

As for searching for a Lutheran church, I'd be *extremely* careful. If someone is living in the midwest, chances are they'll find a healthier church. The LCMS & WELS are pretty solid there. 

But if they're on the east or west coast, I'd recommend avoiding the LCMS. They look good on paper, but in actual practice they're quite different. Many of these guys actually *envy* the ELCA and are working hard to move the LCMS in that direction.


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## Scott (Dec 1, 2005)

Henry: By liberal, I mean a church that teaches that (1) the Bible is not inerrant, or that it only "contains" the Word of God but the text itself it not inspired, (2) miracles do not happen - i.e. they "demythologize" the Bible, interpreting all miraculous stories as being allegory and having not really happened, (3) they teach that all people everywhere are saved irrespective of whether the believe in Christ, (4) the teach that all religions are equal, (5) they have priestesses or female pastors, (6) they approve of homosexual marriage, etc.


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## AdamM (Dec 1, 2005)

> As for searching for a Lutheran church, I'd be *extremely* careful. If someone is living in the midwest, chances are they'll find a healthier church. The LCMS & WELS are pretty solid there.
> 
> But if they're on the east or west coast, I'd recommend avoiding the LCMS. They look good on paper, but in actual practice they're quite different. Many of these guys actually *envy* the ELCA and are working hard to move the LCMS in that direction.



Thank you for your insight Kevin.

In our area being a center for LCMS Lutheranism, I have picked up on bits and pieces of the struggle in the LCMS that you describe. As an outsider, it looks like the confessionalists and the progressives have about equal strength in the synod, but perhaps I am wrong?

It seems both Lutherans and Presbyterians are afflicted by the same sort of mentality that latches onto a church fad about 10 years after it has run it's course in most other places (sort of like a religious version of the mullet haircut.)


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## crhoades (Dec 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by AdamM_
> It seems both Lutherans and Presbyterians are afflicted by the same sort of mentality that latches onto a church fad about 10 years after it has run it's course in most other places (sort of like a religious version of the mullet haircut.)





This has to be in the top 10 of funniest things that I've read on the PB!


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## cupotea (Dec 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by crhoades_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by AdamM_
> ...



It's definitely a GOOD one!!


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## cupotea (Dec 2, 2005)

Henry, it might be a bit of a haul for you, but I do highly recommend Knox Presbyterian Church in Toronto. It's great!


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## Henry from Canada (Dec 2, 2005)

I believe this church is on Spadina. With my health and no car this would be quite an expensive and tiring haul. This would be tiring even if I was just a passenger in a car.

I'm looking at a church that is a relatively short taxi ride away. This church is located in a mall which is good in one way in that I don't have to worry about ice. I believe this church is Calvinistic. 

There is another church that is only 400 yards away, however, I don't think they are Calvinistic. I also have had a problem with one of its members. Her reactions to me have me very concerned. On the other hand, I want to visit on a Sunday when I have good energy and there is no ice on the pavement.


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