# Miserable Failure to Engage the Mormons



## toddpedlar (Jul 14, 2007)

This morning I am feeling rather pathetic about my failure to / unreadiness to engage Mormons on the spot when they stopped by the swingset in which I was pushing my three girls in a park yesterday. I was more than a little annoyed that they swooped in while we were obviously enjoying a family day out, but I suppose with three little blond-headed girls and a wife who is seven months pregnant, we stood out as an easy target.

They went through their usual spiel, asking if we would talk with them about the true church, and so forth, and, mostly because I was quite annoyed by their interrupting our family time, but also because I really didn't want to get into any lengthy discussions with them and felt somewhat unprepared to address everything that might come up, I did my best to send them off with a gracious "no thank you". We were in a park in Rochester, MN, which is about an hour and a half from home - so that didn't make it easy to want to start up a conversation that would have to be shorter than I would want.

I lost an opportunity there - perhaps a big one - to plant some seeds of doubt in their minds concerning their cultic slavery, and to show them a glimpse of the true freedom of knowing the true Christ. They are two enslaved souls - and I am disturbed over my failure to set the afternoon aside and engage them. I am also determined to have ready tools for discussion with them the next time they come knocking at our door at home... though I know a good deal about their history and doctrine, from having taught about Mormonism in Sunday School several years ago, I could be much better prepared to have a long discussion with them. 

Anyway I hope this confession and lament reaches some of you who might be visited by the Mormons... and to exhort you, along with myself, to take some time to prepare yourself for such a visit - it is a prime witnessing opportunity that shouldn't be missed. These people are locked up in a deadly belief-system and need the light shone before them just as much as anyone else you might encounter. Their willingness to address you at your front doorstep makes being specifically prepared for them a good goal to have in mind.


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## Blue Tick (Jul 14, 2007)

Hi Todd,

I understand your desire to be ready to engage Mormons. My wife and I live in Salt Lake City (Mormon Mecca) and at times I find it difficult to talk with Mormons. The main reason is because it seems to so draining at times. They're slippery and very arrogant with spiritual pride. It's hard to talk with them because to your face they will tell you they believe the same things as Christianity. But in reality they don't even know what they believe. Furthermore, they have the same terms as Christians but different definitions.

What I have found with Mormon missionaries is challenge them to define their terms. This is where it's difficult because usually they will start jumping all over the board and not stick with the original question. (This is where it's draining)

Thank you for the challenge! I would like to be more prepared myself!

Blessings and Grace,

John


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## JonathanHunt (Jul 14, 2007)

I find it hard to engage Mormons and JWs and others, mainly because I find it so hard to retain key points and stuff that I need, and that I get JWs and Mormons mixed up re beliefs etc. I have read good books on the subject several times, but the one thing I can really remember every time is David Reed's comment at a conference: "If you just get 5 minutes with a JW, share your testimony and talk about Christ."

Perhaps I should get a couple of crib cards and leave them in my wallet. Because you usually get a warning, you can see them coming a long way off!


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## sotzo (Jul 14, 2007)

Todd:

I share your confession and have repented of this at times myself. I've actually had pride get in the way of discussion and then been absolutely tongue tied when they cite Scriptural support that I am unequipped to address...as if somehow, I thought I would be able to be Bahnsen, et al...rather, I should have simply loved them by listening and saying my reliance is in the Jesus of the closed canon.

JB


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## Coram Deo (Jul 14, 2007)

I have never had a conversation with a mormon or JW... They are not common in my area of Maryland. And up till recently I always thought they were Unitarian but I found they are not Unitarian or Trinitarian but Tri-Theistic.. They deny the One Substance of the Trinity within the Godhead.

I would like to learn more and all ways to defuse this heresy since I and my family will be moving a a large Mormon population area of Wyoming. Not only to guard my own family against this false belief but also to witness to these people since they will be my neighbors...

I hope this is my hijacking, but maybe someone would like to start a thread on Mormons and the Trinity and how to refute their heresy...

Anybody know of the best "Reformed" book on the doctrine of the Trinity? And how to refute all the modern day heresies in it?

Michael




sotzo said:


> Todd:
> 
> I share your confession and have repented of this at times myself. I've actually had pride get in the way of discussion and then been absolutely tongue tied when they cite Scriptural support that I am unequipped to address...as if somehow, I thought I would be able to be Bahnsen, et al...rather, I should have simply loved them by listening and saying my reliance is in the Jesus of the closed canon.
> 
> JB


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## KMK (Jul 14, 2007)

We all must examine our own hearts but I would not be so quick to say that the failure to engage a mormon missionary is a sin. I live in a large Mormon community and my family does witness to the mormons in our daily lives of walking amongst them. I have had them in my home for Bible study, I have talked to them one on one, and preached to them at my church. But...

After years of observation I have noticed something. When those two young missionary men come to you with their neckties and books in hand, they are bringing a different gospel. They are false prophets and although it saddens me that the old men 'pass their children through the fire' in this way, they need to be seen for the dangerous evil that they are. Seeing how they are young false prophets, 2 John might apply and to even bid them 'Godspeed' would be to partake of their evil deeds. In fact, every argument or scripture passage that you bring will be noted and taken back to the bishop for the purpose of creating a better mormon argument for use on some other victim that might not be a strong and knowledgable as yourself.

I believe the best opportunity with a mormon missionary is to take them out of their 'official' capacity of false prophet and here are a some of mothods to try:

1) Make them take their ties off. Believe it or not, most of the time they will not do it. They may loosen them, but they will not take them off. The necktie is some kind of badge or official emblem that they are proud to wear. If they refuse to take it off then you know they are too proud to hear the gospel.

2) Those missionaries travel in pairs. Usually, one is the mentor and the other is a green apprentice. Try to identify which one is the apprentice and ask if you can tallk to him alone. They usually won't agree but the apprentice is usually scared out of his gourd and is in a better frame of mind to hear the gospel.

3) Those missionaries don't get out much but if you encounter them in the community when they are not on official business try striking up a conversation then while their guard is down. Ask them questions about themselves and try to establish a relationship and then see what the Lord does. Remember that it is charity that edifies, not knowledge.

Again, I am not condemning anyone on this thread but simply trying to point out that *maybe* the reason Todd did not engage those false prophets is because the Lord did not want him to. No reason to beat yourself up. Plus, in light of 2 John, think about what you are modeling for your children. Do you want them to receive false prophets and listen to what they have to say?


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## JonathanHunt (Jul 14, 2007)

Very interesting post, Pastor K. I will remember that point about the ties. What about the badge that says 'Elder' so and so? Bet they'd never ever take that off!

JH


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## MrMerlin777 (Jul 14, 2007)

I've found that most of the time even if you confront them with many of the inconsitencies of their possition they just tap dance around it. I still present the entire argument anyway because, as has been mentioned, it might sew some seeds of doubt in the mind of the "apprentice" though the mentor is usually uneffected and will have a "counter argument" that tap dances around my argument instead of addressing it. I usually point this out as well (that the "counter argument" is not addressing my argument but "tap dancing" around it).


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## KMK (Jul 14, 2007)

JonathanHunt said:


> Very interesting post, Pastor K. I will remember that point about the ties. What about the badge that says 'Elder' so and so? Bet they'd never ever take that off!
> 
> JH



I don't know about the badge. Do you guys have mormons in the UK?


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## panta dokimazete (Jul 14, 2007)

KMK said:


> We all must examine our own hearts but I would not be so quick to say that the failure to engage a mormon missionary is a sin. I live in a large Mormon community and my family does witness to the mormons in our daily lives of walking amongst them. I have had them in my home for Bible study, I have talked to them one on one, and preached to them at my church. But...
> 
> After years of observation I have noticed something. When those two young missionary men come to you with their neckties and books in hand, they are bringing a different gospel. They are false prophets and although it saddens me that the old men 'pass their children through the fire' in this way, they need to be seen for the dangerous evil that they are. Seeing how they are young false prophets, 2 John might apply and to even bid them 'Godspeed' would be to partake of their evil deeds. In fact, every argument or scripture passage that you bring will be noted and taken back to the bishop for the purpose of creating a better mormon argument for use on some other victim that might not be a strong and knowledgable as yourself.
> 
> ...



very wise and Scriptural advice, thank you!


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## AV1611 (Jul 14, 2007)

KMK said:


> I don't know about the badge. Do you guys have mormons in the UK?



Indeed. When I was living up in the North East a couple of Mormons came to my flat which I was sharing to talk to my flatmate who had invited them He knew them for a couple of years and it was a long term thing.

It was interesting to listen in to the discussions. I did not take much part not least because they usually came just before I got home from work and so felt pretty drained and just wanted to crash on the sofa and relax.

They were very confused but my flat mate was excellent with them.

If I met one in the street (mormons in general) I would say I was a Christian and when they said "So am I" my response would be to ask if they agreed with the creeds. Needless to say that shut them up.


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## KMK (Jul 14, 2007)

AV1611 said:


> If I met one in the street (mormons in general) I would say I was a Christian and when they said "So am I" my response would be to ask if they agreed with the creeds. Needless to say that shut them up.



Very good. And another hint: They do not know what to do with Eph 1:4 and the doctrine of election. I once started talking with mormons about God being the husbandman and Jesus being the vine and we being the branches and they were all giddy and excited. Then I mentioned how just like a vine in the garden, the branches do not get to choose whether or not they are a part of the vine. I told them how I rejoice at the fact that my being a part of that vine was not up to me. They got real quiet and I never saw them again. I guess that would work on just about anybody.


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## Ivan (Jul 14, 2007)

jdlongmire said:


> very wise and Scriptural advice, thank you!


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## Iconoclast (Jul 14, 2007)

*mormon resources*

James White of AOMIN has done extensive research and written much about the modern LDS church. He goes to salt lake city very often to speak to them. Most of the ones I have spoken with try to get you to feel the "burning in the bosom" if you read the false book of mormon.
If you are well informed about bible truth they are less interested in speaking with you. 
Many who live in utah, idaho, arizona, are sort of like nominal catholics.They were raised in the false church and are not even sure what they are supposed to believe about their own cult teaching, much less the christian gospel.
When you caution them that going outside the bible is dangerous to the soul, they offer up Amos 3:7.
They do not like to hear the doctrines of grace.


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## VictorBravo (Jul 14, 2007)

Todd, I agree with Pastor Klein. No need to beat yourself up.

Consider that you have only so many hours in a day, and in your life. The time you were spending with your children and wife was dedicated to that. When I have set aside time, I would not allow some false prophets to try to take me from that.

No, I'd politely tell them that I do not want to hear a false gospel at this moment, hand them my card, and ask them to contact me during business hours if they'd like to discuss further.


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## Herald (Jul 14, 2007)

The JW's came to the door late this morning. There was a whole crew of them. I didn't get into it with them this time. I have spoken with them numerous times before but they keep coming back. I felt a pang of guilt for not debating with them but that quickly subsided when I realized how often I have gone toe-to-toe with them in the past.


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## KMK (Jul 14, 2007)

victorbravo said:


> No, I'd politely tell them that I do not want to hear a false gospel at this moment, hand them my card, and ask them to contact me during business hours if they'd like to discuss further.



 I like that one. Be careful though, they might actually contact you!


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## RamistThomist (Jul 14, 2007)

Here is from an old blog post of mine from last summer:



> I hear ma and pa came in with pizza. So I am about to dig in. My dad told me I need to go answer the door in a few minutes. I ask why. He said mormons are coming. I gather my thoughts and walk outside. They walk up in a few seconds. Polite introductions. Here is the gist of the argument:
> 
> Me: Do y'all believe in Christ.
> 
> ...


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## VictorBravo (Jul 14, 2007)

KMK said:


> I like that one. Be careful though, they might actually contact you!



Actually, I always hope they do. It's never happened.


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## VictorBravo (Jul 14, 2007)

> Them: You have to pray and believe in your heart that the book of mormon is right.
> 
> Me: That's begging the question. Anyway, I did. God told me you are wrong.



 That's classic. 

I used something similar to a new ager who said we create our own reality through visualization: "That's cool! Right now I'm visualizing your nonexistence!"


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## turmeric (Jul 15, 2007)

When I get a burning in the bosom I take a teaspoon of baking soda in warm water. Hope that wasn't too much information!

With JW's I get personal. I ask them how they get atonememt or what they do with their guilt. (borrowed from RC Sproul Sr.). Haven't tried it with Mormons yet, but maybe next time...


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## MrMerlin777 (Jul 15, 2007)

turmeric said:


> When I get a burning in the bosom I take a teaspoon of baking soda in warm water.
> 
> ...



I've been taking Aciphex for years for "burning in the bosom" also known as GERD.


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## javajedi (Jul 15, 2007)

I agree that you should not beat yourself up.
Remember, it is the Holy Spirits' job, not yours, to convert souls. Yes, we can be the means but we don't change hearts.

In dealing with Mormons you *really* have to have the terminology down. They redefine common Christian terms and often turn them on their heads. You can talk forever and never communicate. So, understand, or clarify, what they mean by the terminology they use.

Stick with key, fundamental issues. Like the nature of God, how is one saved and who Jesus is. These will be most productive. Trying show that Joseph Smith is a false prophet will run to too many rabbit trails and in the end they still have not been confronted with the Gospel.


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## kvanlaan (Jul 15, 2007)

You've just been eating too many Reformed jelly donuts, Officer Pedlar. While you could have caught a Pentecostal mugger with ease, the Mormon one got away. We just don't put that much time into investigating them.

I say this because we had the exact same issue. We lived in a Mormon enclave and spend a lot of time with them (their church is just down the street from our complex) and I was completely overwhelmed by their theology at first (it's a _lot_ to take in). That set me to learning as much as I could about them - ex-Mormons have a lot of info and there's a ton of stuff online. A friend brought over literally 20 lbs of books and binders full of articles for me to read and it helped immensely. 

I always thought it was interesting how the simple stuff really got them. Early confessions. Basic foundations of faith; for instance, the Sovereignty of God. (They hate that one.) The unchanging nature of God, being age to age the same. (Deep hatred of that one too - their 'new revelations' don't fit well in that scenario.) 

And while they tout the Book of Mormon as a guide for Ivy-league university archaeology departments, the universities they mention have published strong objections to these claims (I believe facsimilies can be found online). Ask them about the complete and utter lack of artifacts from the huge battle that supposedly took place at Hill Cumorah (I had a peek online a minute ago and some people are now saying that, well, this may not be the right hill - shocking!) Their own physical religious foundations are very brittle and usually shatter quite easily if you know where to prod.

Sorry, starting to ramble here. 

Basically, it happened to all of us the first time too. How many of us take serious time in studying a religious cult of a few million people? Yes, I know, it's one of the fastest growing religions on the planet. But if Bob V, Ryan S, Jacob and I start the "Church of Bob" and Bill Brown joins, we just grew by 25%!!! We're still just five guys and a case of beer, but we're officialy the 'fastest-growing religion' on the _entire planet_! Woohoo!


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## Ivan (Jul 15, 2007)

kvanlaan said:


> But if Bob V, Ryan S, Jacob and I start the "Church of Bob" and Bill Brown joins, we just grew by 25%!!! We're still just five guys and a case of beer, but we're officialy the 'fastest-growing religion' on the _entire planet_! Woohoo!



What creed does the "Church of Bob" hold?


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## toddpedlar (Jul 15, 2007)

Ivan said:


> What creed does the "Church of Bob" hold?



Robert's Rules?


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## BobVigneault (Jul 15, 2007)

Ivan, there is no official creed yet. So far we are holding to a rough understanding of the RPW. We don't all agree on how the RPW should look in our church, but we are all diligently working through the implications of what scripture intended in warning us that, Nadab and Abihu offered 'strange brew' before the Lord.


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## turmeric (Jul 15, 2007)

I thought that was Eric Clapton that offered Strange Brew! Learn something new every day around here!


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## JollySpectre9 (Jul 15, 2007)

*Strange Brew*



BobVigneault said:


> Ivan, there is no official creed yet. So far we are holding to a rough understanding of the RPW. We don't all agree on how the RPW should look in our church, but we are all diligently working through the implications of what scripture intended in warning us that, Nadab and Abihu offered 'strange brew' before the Lord.




I have found the image with which to create our golden calf!!!


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## BobVigneault (Jul 15, 2007)

That's them, that's Nadab and Abihu McKenzie.

Hey let's really wreck this thread. (Opening up a large jar of moths and shaking them free).


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## calgal (Jul 15, 2007)

To the OP: The Kevins and John had some good advice. I am exmo and can only offer this: New Horizons Article Think Hyper Arminian American Gnostic for a description of the mormon faith. That may help.

As for the Church of Bob, is it ruled by MAN LAW?


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## RamistThomist (Jul 17, 2007)

For the ultimate reductio, try this:

Christian: Is God corporeal? 

Mormon: (he has to answer yes, btw) Yes.

Christian: So that means God has a body?

Mormon: Ultimately, yes.

Christian: So then, necessarily would God have a p3nis?


Its blunt and I wouldn't always use it in that way, but if you get angry enough.


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## JDKetterman (Jul 18, 2007)

I usually always in contact with Mormons since my Wife's family is Mormon. My wife is a ex-mormon and so is my sister in law.

There was a time when it was very tough for me. After I started really looking at their points of tension, it became a lot easier for me to dialog. My advice is to look for the points of tensions, which means listen and ask questions.


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## kvanlaan (Jul 18, 2007)

Jacob, I don't think they'd blink at that - remember, according to them, it was a physical act of love between God the Father and Mary that begat Christ.


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