# SPIRIT AND TRUTH



## Jeremy (May 12, 2005)

What's the balance between piety and liberty in worship? Maybe a better way of saying that would be, what's the balance between...say... Gregorian chant and an Assembly of God free-for-all?

Anyone have any ideas?


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## WrittenFromUtopia (May 12, 2005)

Where is there any possibility given for "liberty in worship" in Scripture? I assume you're speaking of corporate worship.


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## Jeremy (May 12, 2005)

'Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings thou hast ordained praise'

But that's why I'm asking for the balance. The balance between a robot and a will that has been made free by God's grace.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (May 12, 2005)

The New Testament makes it clear that, in light of Christ's perfect sacrifice and the abolition of the sacrifices and ordinances of the Old Covenant sacrificial/temple system (Heb 7:12), our worship of God through Christ is to be based on the melody of our hearts, not instruments, by singing the psalms (Eph 5:19; Col 3:16), with joy and thanksgiving (Eph 5:20), the fruit of our lips _alone_ (Heb 13:15), with reverence and awe (Heb 12:28), since God has not changed His specific and precise attitude towards worship and how it is done, for God does not change with the passing of time (Heb 12:19, compare to Lev 10:1-3; James 1:17).

Here's a few people throughout Church history attesting to the fact that instruments have no place in New Covenant worship, based on the exact principle I have just mentioned:



> John Chrysostom, 4th Century Bishop - "David formerly sang songs, also today we sing hymns. He had a lyre with lifeless strings, the church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre with a different tone indeed but much more in accordance with piety. Here there is no need for the cithara, or for stretched strings, or for the plectrum, or for art, or for any instrument; but, if you like, you may yourself become a cithara, mortifying the members of the flesh and making a full harmony of mind and body. For when the flesh no longer lusts against the Spirit, but has submitted to its orders and has been led at length into the best and most admirable path, then will you create a spiritual melody."
> (Chrysostom, 347-407, Exposition of Psalms 41, (381-398 A.D.) Source Readings in Music History, ed. O. Strunk, W. W. Norton and Co.: New York, 1950, pg. 70.)
> 
> Thomas Aquinas, Catholic Theologian; 13th century - "Our church does not use musical instruments, as harps and psalteries, to praise God withal, that she may not seem to Judaize."
> ...


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## Jeremy (May 12, 2005)

Don't forget to mention the scripture that says to use psalms, hymns and spiritual songs and all the Psalms that speak of stringed instruments being used in worship.

Stick with scripture my friend and not the words of men, whoever they may be. Don't quench the Spirit.

By the way, how many people go to your church?

Jeremy


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## WrittenFromUtopia (May 12, 2005)

Brian Schwertley on the exclusive use of Psalms in worship, exegeting from Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16:



> Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16
> 
> Two passages which are crucial to the exclusive Psalmody debate are Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16. These passages are important because they are used as proof texts by both exclusive Psalm singers and those who use uninspired hymns in worship. Paul writes, "œAnd do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord" (Eph. 5:18-19). "œLet the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord" (Col. 3:16).
> Before we consider the question of how these passages relate to public worship, we first will consider the question "œwhat does Paul mean by psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs?" This question is very important, for many advocates of uninspired hymnody (who claim to adhere to the regulative principle) point to this passage as proof that uninspired hymns are permitted in public worship by God. When examining passages such as Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16, one should not make the common mistake of importing our modern meaning or usage of a word, such as hymn, into what Paul wrote over nineteen hundred years ago. When a person hears the word "œhymn" today, he immediately thinks of the extra-biblical non-inspired hymns found in the pews of most churches. The only way to really determine what Paul meant by "œpsalms, hymns, and spiritual songs" is to determine how these terms were used by Greek-speaking Christians in the first century.
> ...



We cannot worship in *Spirit* without the joy of salvation TRULY being in our hearts, leading us to desire to put forth pure worship and praise to the Lord God Almighty.

We cannot worship in *Truth* without God's truth, for the wisdom of man is foolishness to God; how much less would the "truth content" in our songs be, compared to the divinely inspired Word of God in the Psalms, written by the Holy Spirit (Heb 3:7)?

That's all for now. Please be objective and read what I have to say, and look into this question seriously. The worship of the Lord is a very serious matter. Grace and peace


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## WrittenFromUtopia (May 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Jeremy_
> Don't forget to mention the scripture that says to use psalms, hymns and spiritual songs and all the Psalms that speak of stringed instruments being used in worship.
> 
> Stick with scripture my friend and not the words of men, whoever they may be. Don't quench the Spirit.
> ...



I'm not fond of your attitude towards me, sir. I am basing this on nothing BUT Scripture, as many throughout Church History have done, including those I just quoted. This is not dumb tradition with no warrant, but a Biblically-based mandate carried on from the beginning of the Christian Church.

I just posted a fine example of why, with PURE AND CONTEXTUALLY SOUND exegesis, the passages referring to "hymns" and "spiritual songs" are, in fact, referring to the Book of Psalms. Please give it a read.

The fact that the Psalms speak of using instruments is not a place to be taking your argument friend, as the Psalms also speak of animal sacrifice and burnt offerings to worship the Lord. To Worship God in such a way is to violate the book of Hebrews and make Christ's sacrifice of no effect.

We do not worship according to the Levitical priesthood (to whom the commands for use of instrumentation is given), but according to the priesthood of Jesus Christ. The use of instruments in the Old Covenantal temple worship is clearly linked exclusively to the practice of animal sacrifice and burnt offerings (2 Chronicles 29:20-30), something that has no place in Christian worship, and something that had no place in the early Church for centuries, as they met in synagogues and worshipped _a cappella_, with the reasoning being that they were not sacrificing animals so why use instruments?


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## Jeremy (May 12, 2005)

Don't be legalistic about worship. That's why Jesus said, 'out of the mouth of babes and sucklings you have ordained praise.' We stick to the truths in scripture when we worhip, yes, but the Spirit frees us to praise Him with songs that may not be exact words from scripture. They simply have to be truths from scritpure. 

When you pray, do you have to pray scripture? or can you truly bring your concerns before him? God is looking at the heart. 

Martin Luther penned a few hymns too.

Grace and peace.


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## Puritan Sailor (May 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Jeremy_
> But that's why I'm asking for the balance. The balance between a robot and a will that has been made free by God's grace.



This is a false dilemma. Being made free in Christ does not men we can do whatever we want versus a strict legalism. Freedom is the freedom to obey God from a pure and joyful heart. In application to worship, we joyfully obey and pursue God's appointed means of worship from the heart in gratefulness to His salvation, rather than out of strict duty.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (May 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Jeremy_
> Don't be legalistic about worship. That's why Jesus said, 'out of the mouth of babes and sucklings you have ordained praise.' We stick to the truths in scripture when we worhip, yes, but the Spirit frees us to praise Him with songs that may not be exact words from scripture. They simply have to be truths from scritpure.
> 
> When you pray, do you have to pray scripture? or can you truly bring your concerns before him? God is looking at the heart.
> ...



Don't be legalistic? The Great Commission is legalistic, then, brother. Jesus says we are to obey every single thing he has commanded us, and if we do not, then we don't love him. How's that for legalistic?

Men are fallen creatures, and the best thing that a man could pen would be foolishness compared to the wisdom of God found in Scripture.

With your quick replies it is obvious you have paid no attention to my previous posts, nor have you made any effort to be open minded to what others have to say about this issue, so why did you ask a question at all? You asked about worshipping in Spirit and Truth, and I have given you a Biblical answer.

You have made rash, rebuking accusations towards me, that I am "quenching the Spirit" and so forth. I humbly ask for your apologies, for to accuse me of such a thing when I am following my Scriptural and spiritual convictions I am doing no such thing. Just because you disagree with me does not mean I am living in sin or in grievous error, refusing to submit to the Holy Spirit. You are very much in the wrong to accuse me of such a thing, brother.

When we pray, we don't have to pray from Scripture, because prayer is SEPARATE ELEMENT of worship, with different regulations. Don't mix things together that are given different commands and stipulations for different purposes.

The burden of proof rests on you where we find ANYWHERE in the Scripture a command to write new songs of praise to God. Go ahead, show me such a command, and I will change my position. It simply isn't there. Why would God ask us fallen creatures, corrupted by sinfuless and biases, to write songs of praise to Him, after He Himself has already provided 150 PERFECT, SPIRIT-INSPIRED hymns and songs for us to sing in the Book of Psalms?

Grace and peace.


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## The Lamb (May 12, 2005)

Patrick, I believe Jeremy has a point. The accusation of legalism may be premature, but the principle is there. These "Rules and Regulations" can and do have a tendancy to quench the Spirit. I am not at all condoning a :toronto Blessing" Experience, But most reformed or Presbyterian preachers that I have head are as dry and dull as the dessert. I wish I could hear a person like T D Jakes speak the Truths in the Doctrines of Grace, more than listening to a dry lecture.

ANd Gabe, to compare the sacrafice of Christ, with musical instruments is wonting for support. The psalm sspeak of cymbals, drums, harps, Lyres, Do all for the Glory of God.


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## Robin (May 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Jeremy_
> What's the balance between piety and liberty in worship? Maybe a better way of saying that would be, what's the balance between...say... Gregorian chant and an Assembly of God free-for-all?
> Anyone have any ideas?



Jeremy - are we free to make-up a style of worship? What does Scripture say? But first, to your query: both Gregorian chant and AoG free-style are counter to Scripture's model (which musically I can prove, being a musicologist/musician.)

Much can be said, so please be patient...get your Bible out -- you'll need to read a lot....

NT worship is based upon OT types - renewed/fulfilled in the NT via the New Covenant Christ inaugurated. 

Read carefully, all of Exodus 26 - Lev. 10 - meanwhile, an excerpt:

Here is what happens when the priests thought they (in loving excitement) worship YHWH in a manner different to what was commanded:

Leviticus 10:1-7
Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it and laid incense on it and offered unauthorized fire before the LORD, which he had not commanded them. And fire came out from before the LORD and consumed them, and they died before the LORD. Then Moses said to Aaron, "This is what the LORD has said, 'Among those who are near me I will be sanctified, and before all the people I will be glorified.'" And Aaron held his peace. 
And Moses called Mishael and Elzaphan, the sons of Uzziel the uncle of Aaron, and said to them, "Come near; carry your brothers away from the front of the sanctuary and out of the camp." So they came near and carried them in their coats out of the camp, as Moses had said. And Moses said to Aaron and to Eleazar and Ithamar his sons, "Do not let the hair of your heads hang loose, and do not tear your clothes, lest you die, and wrath come upon all the congregation; but let your brothers, the whole house of Israel, bewail the burning that the LORD has kindled. And do not go outside the entrance of the tent of meeting, lest you die, for the anointing oil of the LORD is upon you." And they did according to the word of Moses. 

In this event, Nadab and Abihu were simply enthusiastic about worshipping and added an element God formerly warned against. Once they were executed, God warns the congregation NOT to mourn them nor should the new priests (Eleazar & Ithamar) take lightly their annointing. They are priests to the Lord - Who is Holy.

Before going on, recall that the NT states we are a "kingdom of priests unto the Lord" in the New Covenant. Has God changed His attitude about coming before Him? Especially, when we are in a better covenant (inaugurated by Christ?) The book of Hebrews resolves and clarifies how former worship comports with the New Covenant.

More to come...........


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## WrittenFromUtopia (May 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> ANd Gabe, to compare the sacrafice of Christ, with musical instruments is wonting for support. The psalm sspeak of cymbals, drums, harps, Lyres, Do all for the Glory of God.



I already answered this objection above. Read 2 Chronicles 29:20-30 a few times through. The Psalms are giving instructions to the Levitical priesthood for the times of Temple sacrifice and ceremony. The Levitical priesthood is abolished in Christ (Heb 7). Grace and peace.


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## Robin (May 12, 2005)

The NT connection to Lev. 10....

Hebrews 12: 18-29

A Kingdom That Cannot Be Shaken
For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. For they could not endure the order that was given, "If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned." Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I tremble with fear." But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. 

See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven. At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens." This phrase, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of things that are shaken--that is, things that have been made--in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, for our God *is* a consuming fire. 

Selah....

Robin


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## The Lamb (May 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Jeremy_
> ...



Gabe, relax here!!!!!!!!!!! Have a cold one ond take a deep breathe. According to what you are saying, we should all practice foot washing then. Christ commanded this also. The issue becomes what Glorifies God according to His word. An argument from silence is no way to support your belief, or bash anothers. Where is it commanded to write confessions? Where is it commanded to build mega churches and overpay pastors?

The balance that Jeremy is looking for is a good question. He probably already has his answers, like we all do, but it is still a good question


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## WrittenFromUtopia (May 12, 2005)

Before I leave for work, I must say, if it is legalistic for one to worship God as they are Scripturally-convicted to do, then I gladly accept the insult of being legalistic. I gladly accept this, because every Lord's Day when I worship the Lord with His praises found in the Book of Psalms, the joy in my heart makes much melody as I am moved by the Spirit of the Lord to praise Him with all His Truth. It is not legalistic, dead, dry, non-spiritual worship. There is much joy of the Lord's salvation in my heart as I worship Him with His praise.


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## The Lamb (May 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> ...




I disagree. So this means we can no longer gain anything from the OT? 

Here is an answer that carries as much weight as yours.

Read closely Gabe:

There is a man named Job who lives in Uz.

Get it? Absolutely no connection. Everyone looks for symbolism and allegory, and this is what your connection smacks of.

IF a person is banging a drum worshipping God, so be it.


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## Robin (May 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> ...



Dear Gabriel,

The priesthood is NOT abolished...it is fulfilled as we, who are IN Christ (the everlasting Priest) are priests coming to God with our bodies as living-sacrifices of praise (Romans 12) - each Lord's Day, in the "covenant renewal" ceremony (known as attending church.) Keep reading (Hebrews)....

Our God is still a consuming-fire! Praise to His Name for the mercy afforded to us to come before Him in reverence and awe, on account of the Great High Priest, Jesus!!



R.


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## The Lamb (May 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> Before I leave for work, I must say, if it is legalistic for one to worship God as they are Scripturally-convicted to do, then I gladly accept the insult of being legalistic. I gladly accept this, because every Lord's Day when I worship the Lord with His praises found in the Book of Psalms, the joy in my heart makes much melody as I am moved by the Spirit of the Lord to praise Him with all His Truth. It is not legalistic, dead, dry, non-spiritual worship. There is much joy of the Lord's salvation in my heart as I worship Him with His praise.




I agree Gabe. But it is not hinted that worshipping in another way is wrong.

Worship in Spirit and Truth. Period.

Legalistic becomes when one loads the backs of people with rules and regulations, all done by interpretations that may be faulty. I do not believe for one second God is upset with instruments in worship. But He gets upset when we claim to speak for Him and it is not what He intended


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## Robin (May 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> .... every Lord's Day when I worship the Lord with His praises found in the Book of Psalms, the joy in my heart makes much melody as I am moved by the Spirit of the Lord to praise Him with all His Truth. It is not legalistic, dead, dry, non-spiritual worship. There is much joy of the Lord's salvation in my heart as I worship Him with His praise.



 

How very right you are, here, Gabe!

Robin

[Edited on 5-12-2005 by Robin]


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## Robin (May 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by puritansailor_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Jeremy_
> ...



 my brother, Patrick!!

Robin


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## Colin Kelly (May 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Jeremy_
> Why would God ask us fallen creatures, corrupted by sinfuless and biases, to write songs of praise to Him, after He Himself has already provided 150 PERFECT, SPIRIT-INSPIRED hymns and songs for us to sing in the Book of Psalms?



If God gave 150 perfect Psalms for singing, did he intend us to sing Psalm 150? Are we supposed to sing about the use of instruments without actually using them? Or Should Psalm 150 not be sung because it was ceremonial?

[Edited on 5-12-2005 by Colin Kelly]


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## Jeremy (May 12, 2005)

Gabe- didn't mean to stomp on your convictions, sorry about that.

It seems though that when we get bogged down in the details, we lose the big picture. That's why Jesus put his commandments into perspective with one word - love. Wouldn't it be awful if he had accused us of not loving Him if we don't obey every single one of his commandments (meaning everything in the OT and NT from Genesis to Revelation). I don't claim to have the ability to do that. That's why I trust in His merit. 

We look into the perfect law of liberty when we follow scripture.

In Him,

Jeremy

p.s. I hadn't read some of your longer responses before writing again because we must have been writing at the same time and posted at the same time - sorry.


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## NaphtaliPress (May 12, 2005)

See Musical Instruments in Psalm 150. http://www.fpcr.org/blue_banner_articles/psalm150.htm
Also a long standard work against musical instruments in public worship,
http://www.fpcr.org/pdf/girardeau.pdf (note this is in PDF). See html at
http://www.fpcr.org/girardeau/Girardeau on Instrumental Music.htm


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## Poimen (May 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Colin Kelly_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Jeremy_
> ...



Psalm 66:15 I will offer You burnt sacrifices of fat animals, With the sweet aroma of rams; I will offer bulls with goats.

Are you supposed to sing about offering sacrifices of bulls and goats without actually doing it? Matthew 5:17


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## Colin Kelly (May 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by NaphtaliPress_
> See Musical Instruments in Psalm 150.


This article is very interesting, he makes some good points.


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## Colin Kelly (May 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by poimen_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Colin Kelly_
> ...



Absolutely not. We are to look to Christ as the fullfilment of the Ceremonial law. We sing these lines knowing that Christ is our sacrifice. My question then is, how do instruments typify Christ? As the Westminster Confession states, " Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament." If instruments were ceremonial they either typified Christ or showed a moral principal. Which do you think it is?
Please don't think I'm trying to defeat a position, I'm really not certain at this point where I stand.


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## NaphtaliPress (May 12, 2005)

Here is another Calvin quote:


> It would be nothing but mimicry if we followed David today in singing with cymbals, flutes, tambourines and psalteries. In fact, the papists were seriously deceived in their desire to worship God with their pompous inclusion of organs, trumpets, oboes and similar instruments. That has only served to amuse the people in their vanity, and to turn them away from the true institution which God has ordained.... In a word, the musical instruments were in the same class as sacrifices, candelabra, lamps and similar things.... Those who take this approach are reverting to a sort of Jewishness, as if they wanted to mingle the Law and the Gospel, and thus bury our Lord Jesus Christ. When we are told that David sang with a musical instrument, let us carefully remember that we are not to make a rule of it. Rather, we are to recognise today that we must sing the praises of God in simplicity, since the shadows of the Law are past, and since in our Lord Jesus Christ we have the truth and embodiment of all these things which were given to the ancient fathers in the time of their ignorance or smallness of faith. "”John Calvin (Reformer, Geneva), Sermons on Second Samuel (1562).


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## Jeremy (May 12, 2005)

*So what was my point? I forgot by now. = )*

Oh yes, my question was 'What's the balance between piety and liberty in worship?' It wasn't, 'Is there a balance?'

Maybe the confusion came from not introducing my point well enough.

I'll try again maybe with a few examples. 

My neighbors are very scriptural, God-fearing people. I don't doubt that. But I have attended prayer meetings/Bible studies they have held in their house. They are so King James Only saturated in their beliefs that they practically think that Jesus Himself spoke in King James English. Anyway, it goes so far as that they even pray in King James English, using all the Olde English idioms and phrases. And it is all done in such a monotone, impersonal voice. When it was my turn to pray, I could feel their judgemental eyes boring a hole in my head when I started addressing God as 'You' instead of 'Thee or Thou'. I was simply being intimate with my Heavenly Father. They also have a 'Psalter only', no instruments allowed worship attitude as well and they look down on anyone who doesn't think that way almost as if they aren't even saved.

That's point #1: very "scriptural", but very unspiritual. 

On the other hand, in high school I attended a Pentacostal youth rally with a friend in Hershey PA where they were practically demon-possessed. They were dumping bottles of water on people's heads with a 'double dosing of the Holy Spirit' and they were rolling around on the stage screaming. They started mumbling nonsense, out of control at the top of their lungs (speaking in tongues). Needless to say, I was out of there before it ended.

That's point #2: very "spiritual", but very unscriptural.

So we need spirit and truth.

Amen?


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## Arch2k (May 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Colin Kelly_
> If instruments were ceremonial they either typified Christ or showed a moral principal. Which do you think it is?



I am also very curious to the answer of this question.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (May 12, 2005)

Thanks for the support, RPW guys.

As for the Levitical priesthood, it WAS changed, according to Hebrews (Heb 7). With the change of a priest, there is a change in the (ceremonial) law. The priesthood now is through the tribe of Judah (Heb 8), as Christ is decended from, humanly speaking. Christ is our High Priest now, and we worship according to His priesthood, which, according to Hebrews, is definitely according to regulated principles before an almighty and most Holy Lord (Heb 12:28-29).

We can sing Psalm 150 because the instruments, just like any other part of the ceremonial law, point to Christ. As believers under the NC, the instruments show us how our brothers and sisters in Christ, prior to His advent, were led to worship the Lord. Instruments were an aid to the ancient Hebrews in worshipping the Lord, and assisting in the ceremonial sacrifices and burning of offerings, but under the New Covenant, with God's perfect law written on our hearts and the Holy Spirit living within us, we need ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to point us to Christ. Nothing at all! Everything is in place, our salvation is complete. We are to worship God, in the NC, with purity and simplicity, praising the Lord with His own praises in the Book of Psalms, making melody with the joy of our COMPLETE salvation that rests within our hearts.

This is worshipping in Spirit and Truth.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (May 12, 2005)

If you worship in all Spirit, you have chaos and are in error.

If you worship in all Truth, you have lifeless, dead, dry worship.

If you worship in Spirit and in Truth, you have the joy of your salvation making melody to the Lord, as you sing His praises, given to us by His Spirit in all wisdom.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (May 12, 2005)

> I disagree. So this means we can no longer gain anything from the OT?



I have no idea where you get this conclusion from. Complete logical fallacy.

You don't see any connection? Here it is, plain and simple, in case you missed it, brother:

*25 And he stationed the Levites in the house of the Lord with cymbals, harps, and lyres, according to the commandment of David and of Gad the king's seer and of Nathan the prophet, for the commandment was from the Lord through his prophets. 26 The Levites stood with the instruments of David, and the priests with the trumpets. 27 Then Hezekiah commanded that the burnt offering be offered on the altar. And when the burnt offering began, the song to the Lord began also, and the trumpets, accompanied by the instruments of David king of Israel. 28 The whole assembly worshiped, and the singers sang and the trumpeters sounded. All this continued until the burnt offering was finished. 29 When the offering was finished, the king and all who were present with him bowed themselves and worshiped.*





> Here is an answer that carries as much weight as yours.
> 
> Read closely Gabe:
> 
> ...



We don't define worship. God does. To think so highly of one's ability to worship the Lord in any way He pleases shows one has a very low view of God, in my humble opinion, and I really think that is the bottom line. Why approach worship with such flippancy and apathy? This is almighty God we are talking about here. We are not out to impress Him (for we cannot) and we should definitely not ignore His own opinions on worship, as set forth in His word.



[Edited on 5-13-2005 by WrittenFromUtopia]


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## Contra_Mundum (May 13, 2005)

*Edited. If the shoe fits...*

Jeremy expressed some concern that the thrust of his question has been lost. I confess to having gotten quite misoriented myself in trying to follow this thread.

Gabe, you took offense early on, and called for apologies. I'm convinced you didn't understand what Jeremy asked initially, and his responses to your posts were partly the result of his trying to correlate what he thought he was asking, and the responses he was getting. If the RPW is an unheard of, alien concept, how will applications be helpful (do it this way) before explaining why it must be done? Hence the uncomprehending questions.

"Thanks for the support, RPW guys." Am I reading that right? is that sarcasm? *Edit. Based on your response (below), I must have been reading that wrong. I apologize.*

How about backing up to square one, 
praying, 
looking at your brother in love, 
and then using your considerable intellect to _patiently_ and _painstakingly_ lead someone through an exposition of the second commandment, and the history of Nadab and Abihu, and culminating with John 4:23? Just present the truth. You may plant or water, but not see the increase. That may belong to someone else, if at all.

Growth in grace is just as much a pure work of the Spirit as the new birth; see 1 Cor. 4:7 and the whole context from the beginning of the letter. If your position on worship is the most spiritual one there is, you didn't get there because your intellect was so much better, you are more logical and sensible, or you have naturally superior spiritual vision. You have been spiritually graced that you embrace the RPW. So be patient with others--some of whom don't even know what Word-governed-worship is all about.

*Edit. Delete paragraph.*For my formerly intemperate language, please forgive me. Let Scripture suffice: 1 Pet. 5:2; Jer. 3:15.

[Edited on 5-14-2005 by Contra_Mundum]


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## pastorway (May 13, 2005)

Answering this question, which is a good one, should not have launched us into another unsolvable debate about what to sing and with what instruments if any! We will reach a consensus on the exclusive psalmnody discussion as soon as we all agree on baptism! 

Worship in spirit and truth is not about _form_, it is about attititude. *If our attitude is wrong then no form in the world is right!* Matthew 15:8"These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. 9And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."'

So can a certain form be wrong? Yes it can, if it violates what God has showed us in the Word. He is _seeking_ for those who worship in spirit and truth. So what can we glean from Scripture as to HOW to worship in spoirit and truth?

Here are a few things to consider:



> _taken from the article "Seven Marks of a Sound Church" by Pastor Way_
> 
> How do we worship in spirit with a right heart condition and attitude? Let's expand our study of the Scriptures on this point. Open your Bibles and read these verses and then read how I have summarized worshipping God in spirit into the following seven points:
> 
> ...



And here is an outline from my sermon last Sunday - the fourth in a series on Worship in Spirit and Truth!! We examined worship that displeases God.



> IV. Worship that Displeases God "“ *Ex 20:1-11*
> 
> A. Worship of Anyone or Anything Other Than or Together with God "“ Ex. 20:3; Ps 86:10; Rom 1:18-25
> 
> ...



Hope that helps EDIFY and further the discussion.

Phillip


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## WrittenFromUtopia (May 13, 2005)

Bruce, I think you need to re-read the thread and see how my simple explanation of my position turned into me getting accused of "quenching the Spirit" and being "legalistic", when all I was trying to do was answer the question as I saw it. You also misunderstood me on a few different points, clearly, and that is understandable, seeing as how this is the internet and not real life. Tone of voice, concern, and other things cannot be discerned on the internet, so to accuse me of all the things you have is unwarranted, I think.

Maybe I'm wrong, but all I see in this thread is me answering a question thoroughly and getting attacked for it with some very unappreciated remarks. I simply defended myself from that point forward, trying to, all the while, show why I believe what I believe. I'm sorry you see it differently, and feel the need to say what you did. I disagree with your assessment, and if you actually knew me apart from the internet and read this thread without bias from beginning to end (if you have, then forgive me), you wouldn't be reacting this way. It is not a light hearted thing to rebuke another brother in Christ, especially based on accusations of things such as "me shoving things down a person's throat", which is something that cannot be discerned in text form.

As I re-read what I have posted, I see no such hostility, just someone giving their conviction, being unjustly attacked and rebuked for it because it is not a majority position, and then that person defending themselves as they continue to present their case, so that such attacks are seen to have no warrant.

Finally, I was not looking to convert anyone to my position from the get-go, just simply present the case for what I believe. From that point I was attacked and rebuked unjustly, so of course I am going to defend myself against such accusations.

Have a lovely day, Bruce.

[Edited on 5-13-2005 by WrittenFromUtopia]


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## Contra_Mundum (May 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> Have a lovely day, Bruce.


Cordially reciprocated, Gabe.


edit add: [please note my edits above in response to your post]

[Edited on 5-14-2005 by Contra_Mundum]


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## NaphtaliPress (May 13, 2005)

A good explanation of the Regulative Principle of Worship (RPW) by a non EP (exclusive psalmodist) is:
http://www.fpcr.org/blue_banner_articles/bogue.htm
A presentation of the RPW and aspects of the principle also is given here in an article that applies the rule to worship song by someone who is EP:
http://www.fpcr.org/blue_banner_articles/worsong.htm
For more articles relating to the topic of worship, go to the following link and page down to the topic "Reformed Worship": http://www.fpcr.org/blue_banner_articles/articles.htm


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## BobVigneault (May 13, 2005)

Hey Pastor Way, when do you think your sermons are going to be posted on your church site and will they be text and audio (mp3 I hope) or just text?


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## NaphtaliPress (May 13, 2005)

Here is a sum of the subject of worship as it relates to the second commandment given by James Durham:
In sum, this commandment holds forth these three things:



> (1) That God will not only be served inwardly in the heart, by good thoughts and intentions (which is prescribed in the first commandment), but also outwardly, in the confessing him before men, in external service and worship, in suitable words and gestures. For the forbidding this sort of external gestures, worshipping and bowing before idols, includes the contrary affirmative in all its kinds (according to the first rule before-mentioned for the right understanding of all the commandments). Thus it takes in all ordinances of word, prayer, sacraments, ceremonies, etc. and failing in these, breaks this commandment, when even they are not rightly gone about.
> 
> (2) It holds forth this, that, in that external service and worship, God will not have men following their own humor, but will have them to walk by the rule given, or to be given by him to them; and otherwise it is in vain whatever worship men perform to him (Matt. 15:9). Hence it is said here, Thou shalt not make to thyself "” that is, at thy own pleasure, without my command, otherwise what is by God´s command is made to him; and this is to be extended to all ordinances, yea, both to the worship itself, and also to the manner of that worship, all is to be done according to God´s command only.
> 
> (3) It holds forth a spiritual service due to God, or that we should be spiritual in all external service. There should not be in us any carnal apprehensions of God, as if he were like anything that we could imagine (Acts 17:29), as is fully clear from Deut. 4:15, etc. Also all rashness and carnality in external performances is here discharged under bowing to images.



from
http://www.fpcr.org/blue_banner_articles/Durham-2nd-Commandment-1.htm


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## Arch2k (May 13, 2005)

Chris,

I would just like to say that the articles you have posted (and your website in general) have been most helpful. Thanks for making them available at just the right time.


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## NaphtaliPress (May 13, 2005)

Thanks Jeff! happy to help.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (May 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel_
> Chris,
> 
> I would just like to say that the articles you have posted (and your website in general) have been most helpful. Thanks for making them available at just the right time.


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## Jeremy (May 13, 2005)

*Unity*

Wow. I'm humbled. You guys sure do know your scripture!! Praise God! I can't hold a theological candle to any one of you. 

I guess you could say that once I start thinking I know something, that's when I find out I know nothing.

I have to give Gabe two thumbs up for his concern that we worship God as He prescribes in scripture out of an obedient heart to God. 

I never really thought too deeply about 'obedient worship' I'll call it. When I worship the Lord every day, I do make sure that all of my sin is confessed, repented of and forsaken. I use worship in order to have more of Christ and to pursue a holy, sanctified heart. But I never really considered, how does God say that I am to worship in His word?

This has become a very interesting study for me. 

Your responses have been truthful and loving (for the most part) =).

Thanks,

Jeremy


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## WrittenFromUtopia (May 13, 2005)

May the Holy Spirit alone teach you in your further studies on worship, Jeremy.


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