# How would you handle a gay brother-in-law?



## shackleton (Nov 19, 2007)

As a pastor,(or laymen) what would you do if you had an openly gay brother-in-law? I went to a wedding this weekend where my wife's best friend was marrying a Lutheran pastor. My wife's best friend has a brother who is gay, not Elton John gay but he does have a boyfriend who goes with him everywhere. Now as a pastor he will have two gay men coming to all of his family functions so it got me wondering how I would handle this. I figured I would ask how anyone here would handle this?


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## KMK (Nov 19, 2007)

How do you know these men are gay?


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## shackleton (Nov 19, 2007)

KMK said:


> How do you know these men are gay?



They are openly gay and proud of it. Everyone who knows them knows they are gay. They are not militant but they are not ashamed either.


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## LadyFlynt (Nov 19, 2007)

Get to know them, treat them like human beings...


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## DMcFadden (Nov 19, 2007)

Some of my business associates are openly gay. One has been in a "committed" relationship for the past sixteen years and wears a wedding ring. He is also an ex-RC priest.

Having been cursed with never having had an unuttered thought in my life , he and I have had a number of very frank conversations about my stand and the meaning of Romans 1. (It was my blogging afterall that contributed to my judicatory's withdrawal from the national denomination over reasons of biblical authority and specifically the issue of homosexuality.) Nevertheless, in an effort to "love the sinner and hate the sin," whenever we meet, we embrace. When I served as a pastor, it was my sad duty to officiate at a number of gay funerals and to hold a man dying of AIDs in my arms in the hospital, hearing his confession over his sinful lifestyle. He had served on the pastoral staff of my predecessor and only admitted his homosexuality to me when he was dying. 

I am not sure that how we should handle such a case is much different from how we would handle a relative involved in any other manner of sin (e.g., living with a girlfriend, drug use, etc.). Four of our five children are strong believers with consistent lives of discipleship (one is a pastor, one is a Christian school teacher and former missionary, etc.). However, my nearly 23 year old is a bit of a prodigal and has broken his mother and my heart since he left home at 18. He went off to college to study for the ministry, chose the wrong crowd of friends, began drinking irresponsibly (as opposed to you Reformed guys with your brews), dropped out to join a band, moved in with a girlfriend, etc. He finally married this summer and my wife and I are traveling to the midwest to meet his in-laws for the first time this Thursday (we don't even know their names at this point). It never crossed my mind until the last couple of years that my own son may be a reprobate.

So, whether pastoral or personal, love and discipline are twin truths that challenge us throughout our lives. Some of you in your 20s are dealing with it now; I still face it in my mid 50s.


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## KMK (Nov 19, 2007)

joshua said:


> I know lost people who are openly promiscuous. I know those who are openly liars, etc. Ditto to LadyFlynt.





Don't get hung up on which sin it is they are unrepentant. All unrepentant sinners should be pointed to the same place. 

But again, does 'everyone know they are gay' because they make sure they tell 'everyone' they are unrepentant sodomites or is everyone just listening to gossip? Have they told you, specifically, that they are unrepentant sodomites? Perhaps your question is putting the cart before the horse. I would ignore the gossip and relate to these men as you would anyone else whose sins maybe are not so public and if they talk to you about it, then you can start a conversation about the gospel.


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## KMK (Nov 19, 2007)

DMcFadden said:


> Having been cursed with never having had an unuttered thought in my life ,



Your curse is our blessing, brother! Thanks for that post.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Nov 19, 2007)

I would ask the brother to be respectful and to not throw his deviant behavior into everyone's face. Come alone. It is confusing to the little children and a bad example. Most openly deviant behavior is not openly tolerated at family functions. Why should he expect his to be. He is still loved but this part of his life is his and he should keep it to himself and respect those around him if he loves them. My ex mother in law turned to an alternate homosexual lifestyle and it harmed my ex-wife very much. My ex mother-in-laws openess and forcefulness kind of solidified my children in their despisement of that particular sin and even herself. 

I am not a homophobe. I have friends who are gay. And we are good friends. But they also know what God's word says about it.


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## Barnpreacher (Nov 19, 2007)

DMcFadden said:


> I am not sure that how we should handle such a case is much different from how we would handle a relative involved in any other manner of sin (e.g., living with a girlfriend, drug use, etc.). Four of our five children are strong believers with consistent lives of discipleship (one is a pastor, one is a Christian school teacher and former missionary, etc.). However, my nearly 23 year old is a bit of a prodigal and has broken his mother and my heart since he left home at 18. He went off to college to study for the ministry, chose the wrong crowd of friends, began drinking irresponsibly (as opposed to you Reformed guys with your brews), dropped out to join a band, moved in with a girlfriend, etc. He finally married this summer and my wife and I are traveling to the midwest to meet his in-laws for the first time this Thursday (we don't even know their names at this point). It never crossed my mind until the last couple of years that my own son may be a reprobate.
> 
> So, whether pastoral or personal, love and discipline are twin truths that challenge us throughout our lives. Some of you in your 20s are dealing with it now; I still face it in my mid 50s.



 for your son.


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## No Longer A Libertine (Nov 19, 2007)

I don't envy you here, perhaps I'm guilty of some reactionary cowardice but I lived in West Hollywood for three months, the gay capital of America per capita.

Unaware of it when I moved in for the cheaper rent, I was exposed to some of the most shameless and atrocious and remorseless living I've seen in my life and when I finally found a place to move elsewhere in my price range (partly because my gay landlord didn't like my intellectual ponderings of his neighbors lifestyle while in conversation with them) I've been called by gay guys trying to ask me out and hang out with me, I've never answered the phone.

I don't want anything to do with those people they repulse me, I too am a sinner but I can't find any commonality with these Papist sodomites that believe in horoscopes, they repulse me and I lack the compassion to befriend them any further.

You are a better man than i I guess, I'll pray for progress and understanding.


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## ReformedWretch (Nov 19, 2007)

I agree with Randy.


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## bookslover (Nov 19, 2007)

Well, judging by the general tone of this thread, I must be doing the wrong thing. My daughter came out to her mother and me as a lesbian nearly two years ago. She and her "partner" got "married" a few months ago. Naturally, her mother and I declined to attend.

We have told our daughter that we still love her and she is welcome in our home, although she also knows that we are strongly opposed, for biblical reasons, to her homosexuality. (When she visits, we rarely get to see her alone. She and her "partner" are, unfortunately, inseparable.)

I have taken the stance that I am not under any biblical obligation to acknowledge our daughter's "partner." When they come over, I ignore her. I don't say anything mean or snide, etc., I just don't say anything to her at all. I act as if she isn't even there. Basically, I just stay in our bedroom (reading the Puritan Board!) until they go away. Naturally, my daughter hates this and, as a result, her visits have become fewer.

Because I know and believe what the Bible says about homosexuality, I feel that it would be a sin to acknowledge the relationship.

My wife is friendly to this girl, and when she and our daughter come over, my wife and the two of them sit around laughing and having a good time (although my wife agrees with me about the sin). My wife says I should just accept the two of them as persons, and relate to them at that level. I get tagged as the "bad guy" because of my insistence on not acknowledging the relationship.

I feel that, if I do what my wife does, and just sit around having normal conversations with daughter and partner, then they have "won" the battle against me, that they will have bent me to their will.

I figure I've taken the high ground here (I don't recall the apostle Paul sitting around being pals with gay people). But, as I've said, I'm being made to feel like I'm the bad guy here.

Am I wrong? Am I right?


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## Davidius (Nov 19, 2007)

According to the scriptures the only people we are supposed to shun are those who claim the name "brother" yet live in horrid unrepentant sin. To shun the rest would be, as Paul says, to go out of the world.


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## DMcFadden (Nov 20, 2007)

bookslover said:


> Well, judging by the general tone of this thread, I must be doing the wrong thing. My daughter came out to her mother and me as a lesbian nearly two years ago. She and her "partner" got "married" a few months ago. Naturally, her mother and I declined to attend.
> 
> Am I wrong? Am I right?



Brother, praying for you.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Nov 20, 2007)

bookslover said:


> Well, judging by the general tone of this thread, I must be doing the wrong thing. My daughter came out to her mother and me as a lesbian nearly two years ago. She and her "partner" got "married" a few months ago. Naturally, her mother and I declined to attend.
> 
> We have told our daughter that we still love her and she is welcome in our home, although she also knows that we are strongly opposed, for biblical reasons, to her homosexuality. (When she visits, we rarely get to see her alone. She and her "partner" are, unfortunately, inseparable.)
> 
> ...



I don't know why you think you have done something wrong by the tone of this thread. We all have opinions. And you have to live your convictions. You also have to love your baby. Man you have to be in a constant state of prayer for God to grant repentance everyday. What a burden. I don't mean to sound harsh nor do I think God has forsaken you and yours, but I am so glad I have not had to travel your road. At least not yet. 

Now for more of my rambling.

When I had my mother-in-law over for a dinner with her partner I was cordial and lovingly polite. I really did like the salty lady. But she and her lover left mad because I wouldn't accept her lifestyle. They were forceful about it. It was my house and I had decided to keep gross sin checked at my door step. It is a spiritual problem also and I wanted to keep what ever demonic presence there was at bay. I will have my friends in but not their language or discussion of this horrendous sin. I will discuss this issue politely but it had better not be the reason for me to identify someone. What I mean by that is that most homosexuals want to be identified by their sexually active preferment instead of by the fact that they are human beings. This sin is so over powering that it fully claims the individuals identity. If that happens I have nothing else to say to these people except repent. And that is sad. Homosexuality is on a level that goes beyond fornication. It is demonic surrender. 

I do know of individuals who have successfully repented of this sin. It is not so deep that God will not save to the uttermost. It is not the unforgivable sin. So I would acknowledge these sinners in hope that they will be recipients of God's grace. 



> (2Ti 2:24) *And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
> *
> (2Ti 2:25) *In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
> *
> (2Ti 2:26) *And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.*


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## ReformedWretch (Nov 20, 2007)

> most homosexuals want to be identified by their sexually active preferment instead of by the fact that they are human beings. This sin is so over powering that it fully claims the individuals identity. If that happens I have nothing else to say to these people except repent. And that is sad. Homosexuality is on a level that goes beyond fornication. It is demonic surrender.



I agree once again.


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## mbj0680 (Nov 20, 2007)

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> According to the scriptures the only people we are supposed to shun are those who claim the name "brother" yet live in horrid unrepentant sin. To shun the rest would be, as Paul says, to go out of the world.



This is a very good point. If these people are professed believers then you must pursue Mathew 18:15-17. This is tough love, but a godly way to handle blantent sin. They need to be shown they are in sin and what they are doing is an afront to a holy God. If they are not believers, then we still need to love them. If we don't then how will they hear the gospel and how will they be able to be saved from their sin? 

This is a subject close to home because my uncle is gay. Kind of a funny story because him and his partner have a house in on the beach in Gig Harbor. We had been going there for years for family gatherings. I will never forget when I was 16 putting two and two together when I realized there was only one bedroom. I was like wait a second... Where is the other bedroom? 


-MJ


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## LadyFlynt (Nov 20, 2007)

No one ever stated that we are to acknowledge or validify the relationship. There are many people that are living in sin in one respect or another, but we don't lock ourselves away in our bedroom and snub them. Yes, I believe you are wrong for such actions...how are you showing Christ to your daughter...all you are saying is that "Dad has a problem". Let her know that she is wrong, that you are her dad, that you won't acknowledge the relationship, whether or not she or her "partner" are welcome in your home...but to let them come over and then go hide, what does that accomplish other than inconsistancy?

As far as the answers, they were based on a "brother-in-law" and the fact they would be at "family functions". Family functions means how would you deal with them when having to be in their presence at other members homes. You have no business telling them not to be there because of children or whatever. You may ban them from your home, you may cause a big stink and tell the mutual family member that it's "them or you" and keep your family away from all functions, but you may not go around telling other members whether or not they can invite them. If you choose to attend, then act like a decent Christian, treat everyone respectfully, if you hug the drug addict or the drunk then hug the homosexual as well. If you refuse to be in the same room as the homosexual, then be prepared to be consistent and refuse to be in the same room as the couple that is living together or that is divorced & remarried without proper cause.

I have known plenty of homosexuals, and to be honest, there are many straight people that I would be more concerned about having around my family. We are to show Christ to them just as we would a drunk living on the street or another family member living in sin (or that has been married multiple times). Our inconsistancy is many times what keeps them from seeing Christ or being willing to sit down and converse on the subject...and yes, you would be surprised how many are truly willing to converse and listen.


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## caddy (Nov 20, 2007)

bookslover said:


> Well, judging by the general tone of this thread, I must be doing the wrong thing. My daughter came out to her mother and me as a lesbian nearly two years ago. She and her "partner" got "married" a few months ago. Naturally, her mother and I declined to attend.
> 
> We have told our daughter that we still love her and she is welcome in our home, although she also knows that we are strongly opposed, for biblical reasons, to her homosexuality. (When she visits, we rarely get to see her alone. She and her "partner" are, unfortunately, inseparable.)
> 
> ...


 
In all honesty, I see myself doing exactly what you are doing. I would not be mean, but I could not be "chummy" with my daugther's homosexual friend. I would feel exactly as you've stated, as if I were condoning the behavior. My wife's cousin is homosexual. He has attended Christmas functions. I do not find it hard to be nice to him. I have met his "friend" as well. I am nice, shake his hand, but I do not feel lead to sit down and have a conversation with him. Am I wrong? Maybe. Do I need more wisdom in dealing with this difficult situation? Probably, but I have prayed about this and can't find any clear advise to do anything other than what I am doing.


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## ReformedWretch (Nov 20, 2007)

Did the prodigals father go into the pig pen to dine with him?


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## LadyFlynt (Nov 20, 2007)

houseparent said:


> Did the prodigals father go into the pig pen to dine with him?



No, but a mutual relative's house full of family for whatever reason is not the same as going over to the gay "couple's" house to have dinner and play cards.


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## shackleton (Nov 20, 2007)

I have always wondered how to treat people like this. Not just homosexuals but but people living in outward sin of all kind, drug addicts, alcoholics even straight people who are very promiscuous in their sexual habits. Do we love them or do we treat them with the judgment of God? 
If we love them too much are we saying that we are OK with their behavior? If we condemn them are we causing them to grow callous towards God and church people? Are we turning people away from God by exhibiting God's judgment? Should we love them as Christ loved the prostitute and the tax collector and let the Holy Spirit convict the world of sin? As the church, which is the body of Christ on the earth, are we supposed to be acting the way Christ did when he was here? But does that mean acting as God's judge or by loving them?


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## LadyFlynt (Nov 20, 2007)

I don't think we have to invite them to go out to eat or go bowling with them. But we don't have to go out of our way to snub them or be snarky when we are confronted with them at events (weddings, funerals, elderly relatives' birthdays or whatnot). We can still talk to them AND their "partner". I've actually found that where the relative in sin was unwilling to hear anyone out, the other party knew how the family felt (by their behaviour) but was willing to sit down and discuss it with me because I was willing to sit and actually talk with her...starting with mundane things and eventually the other would come up. I could be honest, but gentle...and gained their respect for this. They appreciated the gentle honesty compared to be cold shouldered which just makes them feel like being more rebellious. At no time did any of these people think that I was approving of their actions, in fact they knew I was probably the most disapproving of them out of the family. But the honesty and decency they expected of a Christian made an impact...not self-righteous snubbery.


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## BJClark (Nov 20, 2007)

bookslover;



> I feel that, if I do what my wife does, and just sit around having normal conversations with daughter and partner, *then they have "won" the battle against me*, that they will have bent me to their will.



While I appreciate your stance to stand firm in your beliefs, something you said here, struck me, as something that we (as your brothers and sisters) can be praying for you about.. 

The battle is not against you my dear brother..nor is it for YOU to win or lose.

This is a battle for their souls, and God alone has already determined the outcome...He already knows if one day their hearts will be turned to Him or not..it is only for you to share that Love and Truth with them. How can you do that if you are holed up in your room every time they visit?

Okay, I can see on occassion going and being holed up in the room, when you may need to lean more on God's strength than you are capable of at the time..but you can certainly go out and hug your daughter and let her know you love her..and are praying for them both.


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## BJClark (Nov 20, 2007)

PuritanCovenanter;




> But she and her lover left mad because I wouldn't accept her lifestyle. They were forceful about it. It was my house and I had decided to keep gross sin checked at my door step. It is a spiritual problem also and I wanted to keep what ever demonic presence there was at bay. I will have my friends in but not their language or discussion of this horrendous sin. I will discuss this issue politely but it had better not be the reason for me to identify someone. What I mean by that is that most homosexuals want to be identified by their sexually active preferment instead of by the fact that they are human beings. This sin is so over powering that it fully claims the individuals identity. If that happens I have nothing else to say to these people except repent. And that is sad. Homosexuality is on a level that goes beyond fornication. It is demonic surrender.



My pastor was preaching on Roman's 1 awhile back, and something he said really helped me to see 
this in a different light..I don't remember the exact wording..but the gist of the message was this:


They want a God in their own image and God gives them over to that...with someone who looks, acts, 
and everything *just* like them...and their sexual identity becomes 'their god'. 

Just as Christians, identify ourselves with Christ, and He is Our God, even to the point we call ourselves
Christians...they too identify themselves by the name of their god..which is in essence their sexuality..


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## PuritanCovenanter (Nov 20, 2007)

LadyFlynt said:


> houseparent said:
> 
> 
> > Did the prodigals father go into the pig pen to dine with him?
> ...




This may be true but the prodigal didn't bring the pig pen back to his house either. He didn't bring anyone else with him either. His Father didn't chase him into other countries either, but commended him to God. The father did go out to meet him when he returned. The father yearned and loved his child. 

BTW, I have gone over to a gay couples homes for dinner and had gays over to my house for dinner. But it was also understood that it was because of our friendship and that the homosexual part of their lives where left to them and not something that was open nor entered in between us. If it did the repentance message would be something they would hear again. Mutual respect is something that should be expected. And someones deviant behavior can be put in check for the sake of friendship and family. BTW, most of the homosexuals I know acknowledge that there is sin and they are living in it. Some of them may believe they are born that away. I agree with them that they are born sinners prone to sin. And that I know that their kind of sin is a deep sin problem. But that doesn't negate the command to repent. 

I don't think going to a room to avoid conversation does anything but show contempt. And someone who has grown up in the church and knows what God thinks might need to see God's contempt for their sin. I don't know. Each situation is so different. But the unrepentant also need to see that God will save them from their sin if peradventure he would grant them repentance. Sometimes this is shown by displays of kindness. Romans 2:4b comes to mind here, "...the goodness (kindness) of God leads to repentance."

An open invitation should always be left for those who will repent but a closed door to those who will not. Do you think the Father receives those who are unrepentant and know the truth? This is hard and gut wrenching since love is deep seated. This deep seated love explains the fathers exuberant joy when the repentant prodigal returns from his death.

This is a very complex issue and much prayer is needed. One thing to watch out for here is that a root of bitterness doesn't take root and overcome the grace of holiness and true love. God knows we are but men prone to wonder and sin.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Nov 20, 2007)

BJClark said:


> bookslover;
> 
> Okay, I can see on occassion going and being holed up in the room, when you may need to lean more on God's strength than you are capable of at the time..*but you can certainly go out and hug your daughter and let her know you love her..and are praying for them both.*




Excellent point.


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## LadyFlynt (Nov 20, 2007)

Most homosexuals that attend family events or visit a relative don't flaunt their homosexuality beyond their presence. Most will also respect the decision to discuss anything but their homosexuality...so I'm not certain what your issue is other than you don't want your daughter and her partner in your home unless they've changed...in that case, just state to them that they are unwelcome. Sounds like you want to have it both ways...have your daughter there and expect her to just leave everything else she is involved in behind. You can't expect that until there has been a change in her spiritual condition.


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## caddy (Nov 20, 2007)

From Sibbes: _The Bruised Reed_

He is more taken up with the inward exercises of a broken heart than with formality, and is yet careful to use all sanctified means to convey comfort.

_But how shall we come to this state of mind?_

_Answer: _First, we must conceive of brusing either as a state into which God brings us, or as a duty to be performed by us. Both are here meant. We must join with God in brusing ourselves. When he humbles us, let us humble ourselves, and not stand out against him, for then he will redouble his strokes. Let us justify Christ in all his chastisements, knowing that all his dealings towards us is to cause us to return into our own hearts. His work in brusing tends to our work in bruising ourselves. Let us lament our own perversity, and say: Lord, what a heart have I that needs all this, that none of this could be spared! We must lay siege to the hardness of our own hearts, and aggravate sin all we can. We must look on Christ, who was bruised for us, look on him whom we have pierced with our sins. But all directions will not prevail, unless God by his Spirit convinces us deeply, setting our sins before us, and driving us to a standstill. Then we will cry out for mercy. Conviction will breed contrition, and this leads to humiliation. Therefore desire God that he would bring a clear and a strong light into all the corners of our souls, and accompany it with a spirit of power to lay our hearts low.

I just finished reading that section. I needed to hear it.


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## ReformedWretch (Nov 20, 2007)

I have much more to say on this but must make a trip to Philadelphia shortly. I reply later tonight. Blessings all.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Nov 20, 2007)

> (Pro 13:14) The law of the wise is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.
> 
> (Pro 13:15) Good understanding giveth favour: *but the way of transgressors is hard.*




Just a place of fact. The way of transgressors is hard. They should expect harder times. And it is hard on them that love them.


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## BJClark (Nov 20, 2007)

shackleton;



> As a pastor,(or laymen) what would you do if you had an openly gay brother-in-law? I went to a wedding this weekend where my wife's best friend was marrying a Lutheran pastor. My wife's best friend has a brother who is gay, not Elton John gay but he does have a boyfriend who goes with him everywhere. Now as a pastor he will have two gay men coming to all of his family functions so it got me wondering how I would handle this. I figured I would ask how anyone here would handle this?



For me, I would hope I would handle it the same way I have with my grandfather who is a drunkard...if I am in their home then I am making the choice to be around his drunkeness...However, if he comes to my home or my siblings home's we ask that he not drink...needless to say we have not visited his home very often, as we prefer not to be around it..

However, in a situation like this it would be a little more difficult, as couples occassionally hold hands or show some signs of affection when at family functions...though if they are at your home you could certainly ask that they not show affection towards each other...and if they choose not to come back to your home then that is their choice..and one you must learn to accept..and if you desire to spend time with them, then you can do so at their home, knowing and accepting that it is their home, and you are freely choosing to spend time with them, knowing you disagree with their open sin..

or you could agree to meet in a public place where out of love and respect for you they might not flaunt their lifestyle by being openly affectionate towards each other, lest you also choose not to spend time with them at all.


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## Josiah (Nov 20, 2007)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> LadyFlynt said:
> 
> 
> > houseparent said:
> ...



 I worked with a lady who was openly lesbian and she had professed to me that she knew that she had sin in her life.


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## caddy (Nov 20, 2007)

Josiah said:


> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> > LadyFlynt said:
> ...


 
What it always boils down to is: we love our sin more than we love God. As Woody Allen stated in his incestious/adulterious affair and subsequent marriage to his adopted child: _The heart wants what the heart wants. _

*God help us!*


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## Amazing Grace (Nov 20, 2007)

shackleton said:


> As a pastor,(or laymen) what would you do if you had an openly gay brother-in-law? I went to a wedding this weekend where my wife's best friend was marrying a Lutheran pastor. My wife's best friend has a brother who is gay, not Elton John gay but he does have a boyfriend who goes with him everywhere. Now as a pastor he will have two gay men coming to all of his family functions so it got me wondering how I would handle this. I figured I would ask how anyone here would handle this?



I am still attempting to figure out what "Elton John gay" means...

I did not know there were levels...


 for you and yours


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## caddy (Nov 20, 2007)

Amazing Grace said:


> shackleton said:
> 
> 
> > As a pastor,(or laymen) what would you do if you had an openly gay brother-in-law? I went to a wedding this weekend where my wife's best friend was marrying a Lutheran pastor. My wife's best friend has a brother who is gay, not Elton John gay but he does have a boyfriend who goes with him everywhere. Now as a pastor he will have two gay men coming to all of his family functions so it got me wondering how I would handle this. I figured I would ask how anyone here would handle this?
> ...


 

Think of with ALL the accessories and a pair of helium loafers...


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## No Longer A Libertine (Nov 20, 2007)

Amazing Grace said:


> shackleton said:
> 
> 
> > As a pastor,(or laymen) what would you do if you had an openly gay brother-in-law? I went to a wedding this weekend where my wife's best friend was marrying a Lutheran pastor. My wife's best friend has a brother who is gay, not Elton John gay but he does have a boyfriend who goes with him everywhere. Now as a pastor he will have two gay men coming to all of his family functions so it got me wondering how I would handle this. I figured I would ask how anyone here would handle this?
> ...


Flamboyant and militant, stereotypical and a sissy drama queen.


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## Amazing Grace (Nov 20, 2007)

No Longer A Libertine said:


> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> > shackleton said:
> ...




Oh, so it has nothing to do with playing the piano?


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## No Longer A Libertine (Nov 20, 2007)

Amazing Grace said:


> No Longer A Libertine said:
> 
> 
> > Amazing Grace said:
> ...


Not unless you're Liberace.


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## bookslover (Nov 21, 2007)

I think I should apologize to Shackleton for hijacking his thread. Sorry, Erick!

As for the advice I'm receiving from all of you, my thanks. I'm still pondering. My daughter met with an elder of our church (I'm surprised that she agreed to it). He asked her if she thought God could change her sexual orientation. She replied that she didn't _want_ Him to do so. I heard this from him, not from her.


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## Theoretical (Nov 21, 2007)

For me, the big question always boils down to whether the person is a professing Christian or not. If the person is professing and living this way, then yes, we are to rebuke them and not associate with them in general. 

But for non-Christians, I will tell them I believe both their beliefs and their practices are wrong, but I won't shun them. I've been able to have numerous seed-planting conversations with non-Christian acquaintances and friends that I wouldn't be able to have if I bashed them over the head with it every time.


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## No Longer A Libertine (Nov 21, 2007)

Theoretical said:


> For me, the big question always boils down to whether the person is a professing Christian or not. If the person is professing and living this way, then yes, we are to rebuke them and not associate with them in general.
> 
> But for non-Christians, I will tell them I believe both their beliefs and their practices are wrong, but I won't shun them. I've been able to have numerous seed-planting conversations with non-Christian acquaintances and friends that I wouldn't be able to have if I bashed them over the head with it every time.


When a group such as homosexuals is so militant in their position you often do not desire to keep their company.


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## calgal (Nov 21, 2007)

No Longer A Libertine said:


> Theoretical said:
> 
> 
> > For me, the big question always boils down to whether the person is a professing Christian or not. If the person is professing and living this way, then yes, we are to rebuke them and not associate with them in general.
> ...



Not all homosexuals are militant.


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## Theoretical (Nov 21, 2007)

calgal said:


> No Longer A Libertine said:
> 
> 
> > Theoretical said:
> ...




One does not have to aggressively assault homosexuality at every corner to be strongly opposed to it. While some will be militant no matter what, their militancy is just as noxious as the obnoxious militantly promiscuous heterosexual or the extravagant college partier. Most of the homosexuals I've interacted with at college, even some who were very militant with other people were people I could sit down and have a long, cordial conversation with over matters of the Christian religion and also why I believed that their particular action was inherently sinful. It is amazing how profoundly treating people as fellow bearers of the image of God who are just as much in need for Christ's salvation as you are, even though your sins may be less notorious, does for talking with them.

Besides, someone living openly in sin may be in a position to be more acutely aware of their need for Christ (even if they refuse to acknowledge it) than numerous cultural "Christians". After going through four years of college at a secular institution, I have more hope for salvation to come to the militant atheists, hard partiers, flamboyant homosexuals, and promiscuous heterosexuals than I do for many of the "Christians".

Now with all that said, I will make the boundaries exist in my home that I don't want to see homosexual couples engaging in romantic behavior any more than I want to some to come to my house drunk, randomly take and knock over paintings on the wall, insult my wife or kids, or engage in lewd heterosexual behavior. But that is a different situation where mutual respect is in order (i.e. that you should expect it when you go to their home)


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## BJClark (Nov 21, 2007)

> Not all homosexuals are militant.



While this is true, it also depends on the area of the country you live in..

In some areas it seems there are more of them that are militant than those who are not..

even here it also depends on what area of town you are in on whether or not you get
the more angry militant folks or not..I know if I go to certain areas of downtown, they 
are very angry people, I won't go so far as to say it's because they are homosexual, but
they are just angry at the world and even being nice to them brings out more of the anger.

Many times I just want to ask, why are you so angry? Who are you angry at?
But most of those who carry all that anger don't let anyone close enough to ask.

Bookslover,

Did the elder ask your daughter why she doesn't want God to change her?
What is she afraid of happening to her life if He does?

Is she afraid God won't really forgive her?

Is she afraid she will still struggle and it will just be to difficult?

Is she afraid to admit she is wrong and that she's spent all these years living in sin, and it's a pride issue?

Or maybe as her dad you could sit and talk with her about these things??


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## caddy (Nov 21, 2007)

BJClark said:


> > Not all homosexuals are militant.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
These are good points and questions above. 


Probe has some good stuff:

Probe Ministries - My Son Came Out As Gay

Probe Ministries - Probe Answers E-Mail


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## shackleton (Nov 21, 2007)

bookslover said:


> I think I should apologize to Shackleton for hijacking his thread. Sorry, Erick!QUOTE]
> 
> No problem. I am finding out what I wanted to know through this dialogue. I am glad you are getting help.
> 
> ...


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## Amazing Grace (Nov 21, 2007)

The homosexuality issue literally "hits home" for many. I have yet to be burdened by this cross, so I do not think I can give any personal advice. One thing that plagues this issue is it is easy to define the one sin of homosexuality and know you have not commited it. This makes certain anti gay people puff up their chest and bash the other. Tolerance does not equal approval of lifestyle. Yet we are commanded to love. I believe chirst died for the sin of homosexuality, unless we equate this with the unforgivable sin. Therefore restoration and repentance is the goal. As far as not associating with them, I disagree. How many "professing believers" do not wear their sins on their heads? Homosexuality has the mark of Cain where all can see.(Those who come out). Where as how many 'professing believers" keep their secret sins in the closet?


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## ReformedWretch (Nov 21, 2007)

Ok here's what I've been holding in and I'm sorry if it offends anyone.

I keep hearing (amongst many Christians) and reading in this thread as well, how "homosexuality" is no more "wrong than any other sin. It's been compared to drunkenness, and other such sins. Ok, I can accept that..generally. 

That said, I'd ask..so what? Too many Christians have been made to feel badly by the radical nut jobs amongst us who use physical violence, sometimes even murder towards those practicing certain sins like homosexuality, abortion, etc. We want to prove that we're "not like them", and that we "love the sinner!" Again, that's great, but I think we go too far in order to "prove" that.

I can't help but continually look at the story of the prodigal. I do this often as my daughter rebelliously lives in sin. It's not homosexuality (so far as I know) but it's many other things..too many and depressing to name.

I keep reading the word "shun" here and it's beginning to annoy me. It's not "shunning" when you refuse to accept someone's sickeningly sinful life style. It's not shunning when you display your beliefs by frequently talking about them, praying before meals (in a fervent way), and speaking to those you love about the gospel and Jesus Christ. I don't think we "turn it down" around those who are offended by us and what we think and believe.

I've visited my daughters living places many times, and I've had her at mine. I did not do either to use them to preach to her, but neither did I act unlike myself in order to not offend her. I prayed when I normally pray, and I spoke of the word of God as I normally do, which is often. When others ask me for my opinion or advice, or tell me of troubling situations they are in, or that a friend is in, when they speak of something "fun" they've done that I actually find wicked, I am going (and always have done so) to share (meekly and gentle) what the Lord has to say about those situations. How can I not? How can you not?

From my experience, once this happens, the lost person rolls their eyes, sighs, or looks like they swallowed raw sewage. Now, I don't "turn it up a notch" at that point. I don't seek to "pound them over the head" with it. As I said, I'm simply not going to act and talk like a non-Christian in the company of pagans. If they are uncomfortable with that..GOOD! Before you "plant a seed" it may take some plowing and fertilizing of the ground. 

All of that said, I don't believe we "shun" people. I also don't believe we change who we are and cater to each and every lost person in a certain manner to best "win them over". that's too much like the goofy "seeker sensitive" Church. Just by my very presence I can annoy my daughter. She's on edge around me knowing that God is going to be in my speech at some point, most likely early and often. Her friends see me as the "Jesus freak" (their words) and it embarrasses her. If she caught in a bad position in life, she cannot bring her self to call me because she knows I'll witness to her and pray. If I did not do those things I would be closer to my daughter. If I did not boldly profess Christ and call her to repentance, we might still hang out together and go for rides in my sport car as we did when she was a teenager. If I tolerated her drunken friends and their whoring relationships I might be seen as the "cool dad" like so many of her friends parents are. If I supported her divorce, made her car payments when her money went to her booze instead of her bills, and kept my mouth shut about casual sexual relationships maybe she would just one day see my good attitude and repent. No, she wouldn't. I tried that garbage in my Arminian days. It doesn't work. One can't accept and turn to that which they've never or seldom heard. When you "show" someone Christ's love, they've got to eventually hear His commands as well. Everyone like the love part, few want anything to do with His commands. 

To finish- in regard to the gay brother-in-law:



> Now as a pastor he will have two gay men coming to all of his family functions so it got me wondering how I would handle this. I figured I would ask how anyone here would handle this?



I'd have a problem with this for many reasons. It's a horrible witness to anyone else, especially children as Randy mentioned. I work with 13 teenage girls and I have them to consider. Even though they know of and maybe even have seen homosexual couples many times, I wouldn't want them to have to keep company with them in my home. We can talk about them not being militant and flaming all day long, but they are a couple and they will do what couples do, sit how couples sit, affectionately display that which couples display. I've already told my daughter that if she were ever gay, I would love her the same as ever but her and her "lover" would never be allowed in my home together. Someone said in this thread that if their drunken relative comes to their home they simply cannot drink. That's GREAT! So you wouldn't allow him to enter your home carrying a six back of Beer right? Well then, that's what the gay person is doing when they tote along their "lover", they are the drunkard bringing along a case of alcohol. Maybe if the drunk hid his beer under his shirt? Or drank it when no one was looking? Maybe he's a "quiet drunk" and no one will know? I mean we don't want to hit him over the head with our beliefs! Are we not to show Christ's love?

Maybe Jesus should have went a little easier on those money changers in the temple? I mean it's likely they never went back to Church!

Sorry to come on so strong, but it's who I am. If I've offended anyone here I guess you can relate to my daughter.  I pray that I have not though. I pray even more for the lost people spoken of in this thread and all involved with them. I stand out on the path way seeking my daughter's return from the pig pen. I pray for it all day, every day, but I will not go rescue her from it, she must stop, turn around, and come home. Then we'll celebrate like never before! This is the example Christ gave me on how to deal with a loved one who has rebelled and went her own way. It's HARD, very hard, but isn't there something in the word of God about the path being narrow?


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## LadyFlynt (Nov 21, 2007)

Adam, you and others keep missing the difference between having them in YOUR home and having to simply deal with their presence at family functions (ie., presuming someone else's home, a funeral parlour, a wedding, etc.). I don't believe anyone disagrees that you should pray when you normally pray and be honest with them when certain issues come up. The issue is, you and certain others keep bringing up YOUR home...that is fine to set your own rules, I encourage it! My issue is when people allow such in their home, but go hide in a corner instead of either laying down the rules or acting like an adult should they have to be in the presence of the other. Also for those people that wish to create a family scene in "if you invite so and so, we won't be there". THAT is what I was warning against. Not insisting people be all gushy and feel good with them. But you can at least treat them as a human being and act like an adult.


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## ReformedWretch (Nov 21, 2007)

Well, if I wouldn't have them in my home, why would I go to another family members home if they were going to be there? I wouldn't be mad at you for having them, but I'd ask you not to be mad at me for not bringing my family to a place where they would be. I would hope you could/would understand that. I wouldn't try and black mail you with my attendance or non-attendance based on your decision however. 

Now, keeping it personal, if you invited my daughter to a family function I would of course still come! However, I would be myself at this function and if that insulted her, too bad. I am not saying you feel this way Colleen, but I fear too many Christians feel that "being an adult" means trying not to make the non-Christian feel bad with what they say. I won't "target" someone who rejects Christ as if they were a pariah, but I won't tip-toe around them either.

Finally, homosexuality is different than other sins in so many ways, at least to me. My daughter can be somewhere without anyone knowing her private actions and practices. If this is the case with a homosexual, then I'd be fine at a public function with them. I just don't think it's possible for that to be the case unless they are without their "lover". Even at funerals and such I may hold my wifes hand, or put my arm around her back or shoulder for a few moments. I don't desire to be anywhere that people of the same sex are acting in this manner. It would be the same thing as my daughter binge drinking or dancing provocatively on a table at the same public place-unacceptable.


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## LadyFlynt (Nov 21, 2007)

Sorry, Adam...I have 2 relatives that are practicing homosexuals and a friend whose brother is. I did not avoid her wedding because her brother was there and both he took an active role in the wedding. I did not feel it appropriate to take out my dismay on her and her wedding. I have never had any homosexual public display their affections before others beyond their partner simply being present...no hand holding, no kissing...nothing beyond them being there in the background and occasionally being conversational with those that initiate conversation with them first. This is quite different than I have experience with people that have live in girlfriends climbing all over their lap and trying to neck at family functions or the uncle that brings his 6th wife after the last 3 lasted less than 6mos.

This is why I felt it was hypocritical to say, "I'll attend a family event where someone with this morbid sin, but not a homosexual". I honestly don't see a difference. Either one can behave appropriately (keeping their sin to themselves) or behave inappropriately (putting their sin on public display).


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## ReformedWretch (Nov 21, 2007)

> Either one can behave appropriately (keeping their sin to themselves) or behave inappropriately (putting their sin on public display).



I agree, I suppose I just see the later far, far more.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Nov 21, 2007)

Fornication is bad and I don't condone it either. Homosexuality is attached to reprobation unlike fornication which shows it is worse and a major perversion. There are levels of sin and people should blush more over homosexuality than fornication. A guy kissing a girl erotically is not on the same level as a guy erotically kissing a guy or a woman kissing another woman erotically. (or holding hands if you please)



> (Jer 8:12) Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore shall they fall among them that fall: in the time of their visitation they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.



Let us not become a people who will not blush or be ashamed of gross sin.


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## LadyFlynt (Nov 22, 2007)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> Homosexuality is attached to reprobation unlike fornication which shows it is worse and a major perversion. There are levels of sin and people should blush more over homosexuality than fornication.



Would someone, anyone, please show me this from scripture??? I have only heard of "Levels of Sin" from those that are highly Arminian (not implying that anyone here is Arminian).



> James 2:9-13 "But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.





Bookslover,

I've been informed that I don't understand your whole situation (true, I can only go by what you have chosen to share). Apparently there was misunderstanding in one post I made. My attempt was not to name call. I used the term "like a..." to show how I believe such action would be taken by your daughter, just in having dealt with this in our own family.

(Correction: I was just informed that the mercy part was in permitting your daughter and her partner over to your home. This clarification helps immensely in trying to understand. In our situation the person was permitted, but not their partner. Thus, it helps in understanding why you separated yourself. However, since this came from a third party, there still might be misunderstanding and I would appreciate your explanation on this. I'm only seeing how it _could_ be taken by your daughter, but you know her better in your situation).


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## fredtgreco (Nov 22, 2007)

LadyFlynt said:


> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> > Homosexuality is attached to reprobation unlike fornication which shows it is worse and a major perversion. There are levels of sin and people should blush more over homosexuality than fornication.
> ...



It certainly is evidence of reprobation, although not an unforgiveable sin. Not Paul's argument in Romans 1:

He begins by describing the rejection of God and embrace of idolatry:



> 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because *they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator*, who is blessed forever! Amen.



Then note his connection:



> 26 *For this reason*...



And then see what gives as evidence of those who have rejected Him:



> 26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.



Notice that Paul moves in a direct line from idolatry/rejection of God (a perversion of reality) --> manifestation in homosexual acts (a perversion of God's created order).

Notice also that it does not say that homosexuality itself _per se_ is reprobation or damnable; rather it is evidence of the same, which should move us to even swifter repentance.


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## LadyFlynt (Nov 22, 2007)

fredtgreco said:


> LadyFlynt said:
> 
> 
> > PuritanCovenanter said:
> ...



Thank you, Fred...because my husband was wondering also. I'll discuss it with him. Does this mean we should treat it differently than that of fornicators? And is there a difference if they are hiding their sin, but we know of it vs if others know of it?


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## Matthias (Nov 23, 2007)

bookslover said:


> I feel that, if I do what my wife does, and just sit around having normal conversations with daughter and partner, then they have "won" the battle against me, that they will have bent me to their will.
> 
> I figure I've taken the high ground here (I don't recall the apostle Paul sitting around being pals with gay people). But, as I've said, I'm being made to feel like I'm the bad guy here.
> 
> Am I wrong? Am I right?



I agree with your position and with the way you are handling this situation

Its not easy.... but Biblical


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## Amazing Grace (Nov 23, 2007)

Here is a stupid question.

Is same sex preferance a sin without acting on it?

I know it has been asked probably 1000 times, just wondering what ye all think?

Is a non practicing homosexual showing evidence od a reprobate mind as Fred explained


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## ReformedWretch (Nov 23, 2007)

...good question! I have a thought but want Fred or someone more qualified than I to answer first.


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## Amazing Grace (Nov 23, 2007)

houseparent said:


> ...good question! I have a thought but want Fred or someone more qualified than I to answer first.



Let's hear it. In case fred is busy for a week or so... Unless he is the barometer of homosexual answers.

I guess the problem I have is this. If the blood of Christ covers all sin, homosexuality must be covered. We sin until the day we die. So is homosexuality an exception to the rule? For instance, I sin daily, this is no false humility statement, Everything we do is tainted with sin, yet Christ bot's them out of the Father's site. We repent in hope daily, at least I do. And I am assured of my salvation even in this wretched body I have. So how is homosexuality any different if the struggle is done with repentance? I struggle with a lustful eye. I commit adultery a lot by looking at an attractive female with lust. I murder according to Christ becasue I have aught against brethren at times. I repent..etc etc etc. At times my life is like the book of judges. But even when I cant even see my faith, I am assured God sees the blood, therefore am forgiven for His sake and realy not mine at all. Just as Israel put the blood on the outside of the door and could not see it, God said "WHEN I SEE IT"...


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## ReformedWretch (Nov 23, 2007)

Well, my humble opinion is that homosexuality (based on Fred's points found in scripture) is a "sign" that you may be pretty far gone. In the case of homosexual temptation but non action, I would still see it as a serious "sign" or "warning" of where you are spiritually. 



> Notice that Paul moves in a direct line from idolatry/rejection of God (a perversion of reality) --> manifestation in homosexual acts (a perversion of God's created order).
> 
> Notice also that it does not say that homosexuality itself per se is reprobation or damnable; rather it is evidence of the same, which should move us to even swifter repentance.



The same thought applies to a lesser degree. If one is tempted to lie with a man as he would lie with a woman, where is God in that man's life? Why would he be tempted by something the word tells us is, once practiced, a sign of reprobation?


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## LadyFlynt (Nov 23, 2007)

Is homosexuality the only sign of reprobation?


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## ReformedWretch (Nov 23, 2007)

I don't think so...just one glaring one in the Romans passage that we can clearly see and point out.


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## Amazing Grace (Nov 23, 2007)

LadyFlynt said:


> Is homosexuality the only sign of reprobation?



I am confused by this line of thinking Adam. I know LF asked this question, but it pertained to the thought I was having.

I do not think any behavior mentioned in 1 Cor 6 can be a sign of reproabtion. Since all of those sins mentioned are covered by the blood of Christ. 

Again, all manner of sin is forgiven, and yet we sin daily. I just do not understand how this plays out. I would hate to end up with a roman catholic thought that the best time to die is to drop dead right sfter going to confession.


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## ReformedWretch (Nov 23, 2007)

Of course not, but we can certainly learn that some sins are indeed worse that others and bigger signs of reprobation than others.


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## turmeric (Nov 23, 2007)

It seems like Romans 1 gives us a progression, from various levels of idolatry to various egregious sins. I know of people who have repented of homosexuality and are still tempted - i don't think these folks are reprobate, they've been converted and they resist the temptation, but it shows where they came from. Just my humble opinion.


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## fredtgreco (Nov 23, 2007)

Paul is dealing with _unrepentant_ and high-handed sin in Romans 1. Notice:

"men committing *shameless* acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error" and "Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them."

I think that the one given to homosexual temptation who grieves for it, and struggles against it is in a Romans 7 type of situation: "21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin." (*And no*, I don't want to argue against the correct and historical interpretation that Paul is here recounting his personal, regenerate experience.)

So I don't think we can place the same kind of "evidence" against the struggling believe that we can the unrepentant pagan. But if someone was caught in continual homosexuality, it would be a sign to examine one's repentance and faith. A change from regeneration includes a change of action, life and behavior. Peter makes that clear in 1 Peter 1:14 and 2:12 (for two examples). Notice how many times Peter refers to "way of life" or "conduct" (_anastrophe_).

And Paul himself is emphatic in 1 Cor. 6, after having described such sins, he says:

"11 And such *were* some of you. But you *were washed*, you *were sanctified*, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God"

strongly implying that as a pattern of life, they are no longer bound to those sins.


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## bookslover (Nov 23, 2007)

LadyFlynt said:


> Bookslover,
> 
> I've been informed that I don't understand your whole situation (true, I can only go by what you have chosen to share). Apparently there was misunderstanding in one post I made. My attempt was not to name call. I used the term "like a..." to show how I believe such action would be taken by your daughter, just in having dealt with this in our own family.
> 
> (Correction: I was just informed that the mercy part was in permitting your daughter and her partner over to your home. This clarification helps immensely in trying to understand. In our situation the person was permitted, but not their partner. Thus, it helps in understanding why you separated yourself. However, since this came from a third party, there still might be misunderstanding and I would appreciate your explanation on this. I'm only seeing how it _could_ be taken by your daughter, but you know her better in your situation).



I told my daughter that she is still welcome in our home. I didn't extend the invitation to her partner. Regardless, the partner almost always shows up, too. They are, unfortunately, inseparable. My daughter, to put it frankly, doesn't give a damn what I think, and feels that she is perfectly free to do whatever she feels like. (She's 21, by the way.) So, when they come over, I retreat to the other side of the house with our cat (who, of course, loves me unconditionally!). They sit chatting with my wife as if it's the most normal thing in the world.

It's interesting: in reading the responses, it seems that, generally speaking, the men are for standing with the doctrine, while the women - again, generally speaking - have the attitude "doctrine, smocktrine - it's _relationships_ that count!" Which sort of illustrates the differences on this subject between me and my wife. My wife is a fine, solid Christian, but keeping relationships intact seems to trump (perhaps unconsciously on her part) what the Bible says at times, especially when (in this case) her own children are involved.

I'm happy to continue to be the bad guy here. Doesn't bother me at all because I know I'm upholding the Bible's position. In the long run, it's always better to be on God's side. If my daughter wants to hate me, there's not much I can do about that. Besides, I still have the cat!


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## BJClark (Nov 24, 2007)

bookslover;



> I told my daughter that she is still welcome in our home. I didn't extend the invitation to her partner. Regardless, the partner almost always shows up, too. They are, unfortunately, inseparable. My daughter, to put it frankly, doesn't give a damn what I think, and feels that she is perfectly free to do whatever she feels like. (She's 21, by the way.) So, when they come over, I retreat to the other side of the house with our cat (who, of course, loves me unconditionally!). They sit chatting with my wife as if it's the most normal thing in the world.
> 
> It's interesting: in reading the responses, it seems that, generally speaking, the men are for standing with the doctrine, while the women - again, generally speaking - have the attitude "doctrine, smocktrine - it's _relationships_ that count!" Which sort of illustrates the differences on this subject between me and my wife. My wife is a fine, solid Christian, but keeping relationships intact seems to trump (perhaps unconsciously on her part) what the Bible says at times, especially when (in this case) her own children are involved.
> 
> I'm happy to continue to be the bad guy here. Doesn't bother me at all because I know I'm upholding the Bible's position. In the long run, it's always better to be on God's side. If my daughter wants to hate me, there's not much I can do about that. Besides, I still have the cat!


 
Please don't misunderstand what I have said...I'm not for relationships at any cost...

If you invite your daughter over, by all means invite your daughter over...it's your home, and you are free to invite who YOU desire into your home...if you do not want the 'friend' in your home, that is your decision and one your wife should respect...yes, it is her home too, however, as the spiritual head of the home, she should respect and submit in this area...if she desires to spend time with them together...she could certainly meet with them at their home or else where..

You could ask her to meet you for lunch, just the two of you...giving you an opportunity to talk alone, without the friend being there, and if she doesn't respect that, that is between her and God..because ultimately, that is who she answers to...all you can do is extend the invitation.


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## LadyFlynt (Nov 24, 2007)

bookslover said:


> I told my daughter that she is still welcome in our home. I didn't extend the invitation to her partner. Regardless, the partner almost always shows up, too.



As BJ stated, it's your house, your rules apply. If you aren't enforcing the rules, but rather retreating (your words, not an accusation), then would that not bring more contempt from your daughter?

:shrug:

In our case, one of the relatives we dealt with was permitted over, when alone with the parents there would be occasional discussion to share the gospel with her, but her partner was banned from showing up. If she showed up with her partner, they were turned away. Granted, we saw less of her during this time, but it worked on her. Just as she was "unseparable" from her partner...she was emotionally "unseparable" from her mother. Forcing her to choose to separate occasionally if she wanted to see her mother caused loss of the "support system" she had in thumbing her nose at everyone during those visits. She eventually repented, left that life, started attending church, and eventually married. She is not the first relative we've had that has left that lifestyle and gone on to marry and have a normal life.

This is not trying to hold relationship over doctrine. This is simply laying ground rules and sticking to them. I believe doctrine would support both rejecting their behaviour and reaching out to them through appropriate means.



Again, I apologise that my comparison of an action was taken as an accusation that was never intended. Since the offense was to Richard, you have my apology for being rash and not considering how my words would be taken.

I will admit, I was taken aback by what appeared to be an attitude (of no one person in particular) that some sinners were worth reaching out to and others were worth only tossing to the wind based on the kind of sin. I would personally make that judgment based on their continued attitude, not the kind of sin. Homosexuality is acted upon for more reasons than just because a person is reprobate and wants to thumb their nose at God and idolise themselves as the militant types do. I've seen it acted upon because of early emotional and physical distress as well. Daughters that have had mothers with multiple marriages, been abused by men or seen too much abuse by men, and are still wanting a partnered relationship within the group that they are comfortable with, other women. Sons that have had absent fathers and again crave a relationship with the kind they were denied earlier in life. Daughters and Sons that were both molested. None of this excuses the behaviour...but if the root of the cause can be found to be something other than just pure rebellion, that person stands a possibility of being reached. Many times, it is these that will be the first to admit that it is a grievous sin and you can work from there. The other kind I have run into also...open rebellion, because bisexuality is popular and they want to have their "fun". These kind I've had to say, "I'm here if you need to seriously talk, but you are not welcome around my family nor will I participate in casual conversation with you while you are continuing in this sin" and then walk away.


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## turmeric (Nov 24, 2007)

Thank God for cats! I think your wife needs to get on board with this, it is your house. Your daughter can come by herself, or not at all. It sounds like she's trying to make a point by constantly bringing the "girlfriend" over. I think your wife may not be getting this.


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## BJClark (Nov 24, 2007)

LadyFlynt;



> If you aren't enforcing the rules, but rather retreating (your words, not an accusation), then would that not bring more contempt from your daughter?



This is what I am having a difficult time understanding as well...and maybe even where his confusion is coming in regards to "relationships". It is not just your wife who is allowing her into your home, you are too, by not standing firm in enforcing your own rules...and instead making the choice to go hole up in the other room.

You have stated you do not want this 'friend' in your home...yet, your wife and your daughter both snub this and invite her in, all the while you say nothing...and go hide out sticking your head in the sand while she is there. 

I would say it is not just your wife who wants a relationship at any cost, but you seem to want that as well, by not standing your ground in this..however, the relationship your wanting at any cost is not with your daughter in this case, but with your wife.

Speaking from a woman's persepctive, I want to see my husband stand firm for things HE says he wants and doesn't want..as do our kids...last year August, my daughter had invited a young man over one morning before they left for school, as they were going to walk to the bus stop together..My husband told the young man to WAIT out side..I got up and after my husband left for work, *I* invited the young man back in the house to wait..my husband got to work, turned around and came back home (he works 5 minutes from the house)..the young man was in the house, he got upset and told the young man.."I SAID WAIT OUTSIDE" at first I was both hurt and offended, that my husband would do this, because after all it's my home too, I'm an adult fully capable of making sure this young man doesn't try anything, and it's not like they were being left alone. 

The girls started grumbling to me about it..even though I didn't agree with him, I just told the girls don't worry about it but just go along with his decision for now, and I would talk to him about it later. I was angry inside, I was fuming  but as I was pouring myself a cup of coffee after the kids left for school, the Holy Spirit started working in ME, and I could hear that little voice speaking...

Why are you upset? he is the head of the home, you are to submit to him, not him to you. If he gives in to you, it tears away at who He is as a man, it makes him weaker not stronger, and in the long run not only will you lose respect for him, but your daughters will never respect him, and your son will not learn how a man should act. 

When my husband came home for lunch I thanked him for standing firm, and went to my children later and let them know *I* was wrong to allow this boy in the house after he told him to wait outside..and shared with them, pretty much what I said above. And through that, a greater respect for him has grown in our home, and in that He is my kids step-dad that is a HUGE thing.

Something else that came out of that, is my daughter started noticing this young man would ask if he could come over, and when she would say, "sure, but my step-dad will be home", his response was always the same "never mind, maybe another day" so she started saying that all the time, until he finally stopped asking..and he started dating girls whose fathers weren't around.

My oldest daughter, who is 19, won't date a guy who will not agree to go on a date with him as their chaperone (not that he has ever gone as a chaperone) but to her, they have to at least be willing to agree that He can go in that capacity...for her to go out with them..

So when your daughter brings this friend over...don't be afraid to ask her to stay outside...even if it makes everyone else upset or mad, and then allow the Holy Spirit to work in them...granted it may take longer than it took for me, but God will work, even if in your wife's heart to stand behind your decision in this.


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## shackleton (Nov 24, 2007)

God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness Romans 1:18-32
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. (ESV)

It seems to be a progressive state that does not end or begin with men and women having sex with each other. 
Verse 18 starts out with the wrath of God being revealed against man for _all _ungodliness and wickedness of men, _who suppress the truth_. What can be known about God is plain to them because God has shown it to them (general revelation) (19-21). 
Even with what was plain, they chose not to honor him as God or give thanks to him, instead they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. they thought they were wise but instead were fools and as a result began to worship the creation rather than the creator and developed idols to look like things in creation. (21-23) 
Because they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, God gave them up to the lusts in their hearts, he let them do what they wanted. (24-25)
When God gave them up to their own passions this is when men lied with men and women with women. They received the penalty in their bodies (venereal diseases?) 
If God commanded man to be fruitful, multiply and fill the earth, and God saves through families and grows the covenant community through having children, then men with men and women with women violates this command and this plan. 
When God gave them up to a debased mind and improper conduct. After this they were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice etc, etc (29-30)
It says they know God's decree, that those who practice such things deserve to die. They know the truth but in their debased, fallen mind that is enslaved to sin cannot stop themselves. I guess part of the defense of a debased mind is to convince one's self that what they are doing is natural, or they are born that way and cannot control themselves. Notice that it ends by equating a debased mind with approving those who practice such things.


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