# American/Christian Flag in Sanctuary?



## thistle93 (Jun 5, 2012)

Hi! What are your thoughts on having an American/Christian Flag in church sanctuary? 

I am completely opposed to them but unfortunately I have a congregation who are completely adamant about it. 

As far as color of paint on walls and carpet color I could care less but I have valid theological reasons why I do not thing think they should be in sanctuary, especially the front.

1) It is distracting: The primary focus in worship is to be God and His Word not our nationality. This is why the Bible has the primary place in the sanctuary. Having an American flag in same place as pulpit takes away from the primacy of the Word. I am proud to be an American and was proud to have served in the military but our focus in worship is to be on the Kingdom of God, which transcends our earthly citizenship. We also need to remember that our mission is to all the nations of the world not just USA.

2) It is confusing: That somehow we put the American flag and the Word of God on equal footing. Or even worse a source of "idolatry". Or that somehow America equals Christianity. And while we are to have allegiance to our country our ultimately allegiance is always primarily to the Word and while the Word of God is never in error our country is from time to time. I don't want it to be a stumbling block, especially on the occasion when we have visitors.

Basically I find myself in place where I have told the church we can put them in the back but not in the front of the sanctuary. Now I have people demanding we take a vote to see majority, which they know would favor putting flags in front. I think congregationalism is most Biblical mode of church government but only when combined with elder led. Ultra-congregationalism is dangerous and detrimental and leads to chaos and confusion. As pastor/elder do I have the authority to take such a stance without the approval of the congregation. Any Biblical basis? Is this a battle worth fighting and more important a hill worth dying on? I am almost sure that if I fight this and block it most likely church will seek to vote me out. Which may be necessary at some point but basically at this point I think it is not an issue worth going to battle given the current weak state of our church but something that I need to teach more on first and then hopefully at some point I can get them removed.

Any thoughts?


For His Glory-
Matthew


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## Edward (Jun 5, 2012)

While you are correct on this issue, I would urge you to use great care in picking your battles and picking the timing of your battles. 

It's your place to teach your congregation, not impose your will on them. 

I'd suggest that you start by finding a mentor - an older pastor who has learned some hard lessons through experience and can give you the benefits of those costly lessons.

And finally, you might be able to stop them from having a vote on the flags, but you aren't going to be able to stop them from having a vote on whether to get a new pastor. And depending on how badly the church has been split by the handling of this issue, that really might be the best thing for all concerned. But you might be able to salvage the situation by apologizing to the congregation for your approach to the issue and asking their forgiveness, putting the flags back for now, and telling them that flags aren't going to be mentioned for at least a year, but it is an issue that needs to be explored further after the issue has cooled. 

By the way, when you say 'elder led', how many elders are there?


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## nicnap (Jun 5, 2012)

Matthew, I agree with you theologically on this issue (minus the congregationalism mumbo jumbo -- but that's another thread : ) ) from what I read. However, I want to ask you, "How long have you been pastor of this congregation?" Some things take time and rapport. .... Just read some of Edward's post. He's on track. Take his advice.


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## rbcbob (Jun 5, 2012)

thistle93 said:


> I think congregationalism is most Biblical mode of church government but only when combined with elder led.



Matthew, as a Reformed Baptist I would take exception to the above statement upon Scriptural grounds.



> Hebrews 13:17 Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you. Heb 13:17



The Lord Jesus Christ has told His people to obey the elders who rule the flock at His command. Congregationalism is more American than Biblical. Be that as it may, you find yourself placed over a congregation that imagines that it is autonomous and may decide for themselves how the church will be ordered. This places you in a precarious position. You will need the wisdom of Solomon's greater Son lest there be an undesirable end to this situation. Be assured of my prayers and of my willingness to discuss this via PM.


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## Somerset (Jun 6, 2012)

I would not like to see the Union Jack in such a position. I can't give you any useful advice - so will pray for you, your congregation and those wiser than me who are advising here.


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## Jack K (Jun 6, 2012)

There's one in our sanctuary, well off to the side in a corner. I and several people in leadership would like to see it gone if we could have our way, but some in the congregation (mostly older folks) would be horrified. Is the anger that would surely erupt if we removed it worth the principle we'd be standing for? Is the lesson that action would teach worth the division it would cause? I'm not sure it is. Better to let it die out over time. You have to pick your battles.


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## Mushroom (Jun 6, 2012)

Ashteroth poles and flags have no place in Christian worship.

May I ask why a Christian would be 'proud' to be an American? Seems to me to be the equivalent of being 'proud' of having blue eyes, a completely insignificant thing incidental to birth. Even if we hold the delusion that this nation is in some vein superior to others, shouldn't that engender gratitude rather than pride? Did you acheive 'Americanhood' through some effort of your own for which you should be proud?

My citizenship is in heaven.


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## jogri17 (Jun 6, 2012)

It is better than in my church where there is a Québec flag, a Canada flag, an UK flag, the flag of the Monarchy, and the Anglican communion flag. Luckily they are all at the back where they are hard to see. We rent from an Anglican Church.


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## JennyG (Jun 6, 2012)

I never remember seeing Union Jacks as such, and I don't even know what a Christian flag would look like, but it's fairly common in the UK, especially in very old churches, to see ancient moth-eaten regimental standards in odd corners.
The intention was to dedicate the banners and what they stood for to the service of God - not vice versa.
That seems ok.


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## ADKing (Jun 6, 2012)

The whole idea of a "Christian flag" is absurd. Where has Jesus Christ, the King of his Kingdom, authorized any such thing to represent his rule or his people? If a group of Americans got together and designed their own "American flag" it would not be accepted as such merely because they call it that. Why do some Christians think they can design and authorize something to represent Christ's kingdom which he has not ordained? Furthermore, what is even more obnoxious about the "Christian flag" is when evangelicals use it, they fly it underneath the American flag! Of course this is because that is American law. However, if the "Christian flag" were to have any meaningful symbolism at all, why would it not fly over all the flags of all the kingdoms of the earth since "his kingdom ruleth over all" (Psalm 103.19)? Do the people who pretend this flag represents Christianity really understand the dishonor they do to their king by subordinating it the world?


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## J. Dean (Jun 6, 2012)

I can take it or leave it. As far as I'm concerned, so long as people are not iconizing it it doesn't bother me.


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## Jack K (Jun 6, 2012)

ADKing said:


> what is even more obnoxious about the "Christian flag" is when evangelicals use it, they fly it underneath the American flag! Of course this is because that is American law.



Not always. I can only recall seeing the "Christian flag" above the American flag, or side-by-side. And, of course, there is no legal penalty for failure to display the American flag according to code.

Not that I'm a big fan of the Christian flag, but I'm not convinced the typical church that has one displays it as subserviant to the American flag.


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## ADKing (Jun 6, 2012)

Jack K said:


> but I'm not convinced the typical church that has one displays it as subserviant to the American flag.



I suppose I cannot say what the "typical" church does. But the practice is common enough that I have seen it frequently enough (though, admittedly, usually on outside flagpoles, not in the main meeting rooms of churches).


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## moral necessity (Jun 6, 2012)

thistle93 said:


> Is this a battle worth fighting and more important a hill worth dying on? I am almost sure that if I fight this and block it most likely church will seek to vote me out. Which may be necessary at some point but basically at this point I think it is not an issue worth going to battle...



I agree with you here. I think this is something you need to let the Spirit of God convince others of, and not make an issue of it. Bear their burdens and continue your influence with the Gospel, with patience and longsuffering.

Blessings and prayers!


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## Jack K (Jun 6, 2012)

Over the past six years my church has, under the gentle leadership of our pastor and others, made clear strides in putting a "God & Country" mindset behind it. In the service a few weeks ago, on the day before Memorial Day, a petition was made for servicemen during the congregational prayer but no other mention. No stopping the service to pay tribute to the military. No applause for veterans in attendance. None of that.

And no complaints that I've heard of... which would not have been possible six years ago.

Churches can change, sometimes pretty quickly, and often a non-pushy method that simply gets folks used to redirecting their worship toward God alone is the best approach. Coming in like an iconoclast and tearing down all that patriotism idolatry in one fell swoop may be necessary in some situations, but it's better when a church can learn to willingly let go of its idols by having hearts redirected.


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## The Calvinist Cop (Jun 6, 2012)

_What is an Idol
“It is anything more important to you than God, anything that absorbs your heart and imagination more than God, anything you seek to give you what only God can give. A counterfeit god is anything so central and essential to your life that, should you lose it, your life would feel hardly worth living. An idol has such a controlling position in your heart that you can spend most of your passion and energy, your emotional and financial resources, on it without a second thought. It can be family and children, or career and making money, or achievement and critical acclaim, or saving “face” and social standing. It can be a romantic relationship, peer approval, competence and skill, secure and comfortable circumstances, your beauty or your brains, a great political or social cause, your morality and virtue, or even success in the Christian ministry. When your meaning in life is to fix someone else’s life, we may call it “codependency” but it is really idolatry. An idol is whatever you look at and say, in your heart of hearts, “If I have that, then I’ll feel my life has meaning, then I’ll know I have value, then I’ll feel significant and secure.” Tim Keller’s Counterfeit Gods_

Could we add a flag to this?


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## jwright82 (Jun 6, 2012)

I can be a patriot in my culture and home alongside being a christian but in church I should never be anything other than christian alongside nothing else.


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## Scottish Lass (Jun 6, 2012)

We had both flags behind the pulpit until a couple of months ago. They badly need to be cleaned, plus two elders quietly moved them to the fellowship hall. I think only one person has even asked. But we've been here five years, and Tim's talked a lot about what's appropriate and what's not in worship, the sanctuary, etc.


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## N. Eshelman (Jun 6, 2012)

Scottish Lass said:


> We had both flags behind the pulpit until a couple of months ago. They badly need to be cleaned, plus two elders quietly moved them to the fellowship hall. I think only one person has even asked. But we've been here five years, and Tim's talked a lot about what's appropriate and what's not in worship, the sanctuary, etc.



This is how ours were removed as well. I had nothing officially to do with it- it was one of the elders who physically moved it. It was gone almost one year before anyone noticed. The American flag is in the fellowship hall now. 

As for the Christian flag- what a bunch of hokey, eh?? Ever read the history of it? 

Christian Flag - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Andres (Jun 7, 2012)

Brad said:


> Ashteroth poles and flags have no place in Christian worship.
> 
> May I ask why a Christian would be 'proud' to be an American? Seems to me to be the equivalent of being 'proud' of having blue eyes, a completely insignificant thing incidental to birth. Even if we hold the delusion that this nation is in some vein superior to others, shouldn't that engender gratitude rather than pride? Did you acheive 'Americanhood' through some effort of your own for which you should be proud?
> 
> My citizenship is in heaven.


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## SRoper (Jun 8, 2012)

Jack K said:


> ADKing said:
> 
> 
> > what is even more obnoxious about the "Christian flag" is when evangelicals use it, they fly it underneath the American flag! Of course this is because that is American law.
> ...



Whenever I have seen them side by side, the American flag is put on the speaker's right which is the place of prominence.


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## jesusslave (Jun 8, 2012)

we don't have any flags at our church....however, i don't think i would be against it...i guess i never really thought about it.....i can say that people will have issues with everything...issues that have come up in our church, i think are just ridiculous, i mean, we are the redeemed, the beloved of the One True God!! However, whether wheat or tares, whether sinning Christians, legalist attitudes, not walking in love... whatever the case may be?? There is a God given order within His body of redeemed people, it is His Church...and when that authority is usurped?? Then you have sin! It is the Pastor/elders, who must be obeyed in the Lord, not the congregation as a whole who must be obeyed. I love my local church with all of my heart!! I love my brothers and sisters there!! But my heart aches for those who may try and usurp the God given authority there. I know God uses believers to speak to the pastor/elders at my church, but ultimately, it is their final decision, and as an obedient congregation, we are pleasing to the Lord when we trust God, and obey that authority, in the Lord! And since there is no clear scripture on the "flag" issue? It is my opinion that it is your decision as the local shepherd of that church  (but who am i but an object of the Almighty's grace


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## Pilgrim Standard (Jun 8, 2012)

What of the Covenanters Banners? Those are often hung in Churches. I have seen photos of some in the sanctuary, but of those I have seen in this location, the kirk looks small enough to not have any other public location to keep the old standards. I don't ever recall them being in the “front” though.

I am unsure if I hold an inconsistent position, because I certainly have distaste for the display of any Flag in the sanctuary save these old reminders of earlier Christians of the local, who fought and died to preserve the freedom of the church to worship biblically (Covenanter Banners). However, I would not like them displayed in the direction of the preaching, or administration of the sacraments.


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## Tim (Jun 8, 2012)

Pilgrim Standard said:


> What of the Covenanters Banners? Those are often hung in Churches.



Hmmm. Interesting. That hadn't previously come to my mind. But those say, "For Christ's Crown & Covenant", so it really is a "Christian flag". 

So, my question for the group is whether there is a difference between the "Christian Flag" and the "Blue Banner"?


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## Pilgrim Standard (Jun 8, 2012)

Tim said:


> So, my question for the group is whether there is a difference between the "Christian Flag" and the "Blue Banner"?


I was really referring to the actual, original preserved Covenanter Banners. Many that are still in existance are in archival cases which are hung or mounted in the churches that flew them on the battle fields.

Here is an example View attachment 2899
Here is one in the Casing. View attachment 2900

I had not thought of the blue banner (An interpretive recreation.) Do any RPCNA congregations fly, or hang these?


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## Tim (Jun 8, 2012)

We have one engraved on our pulpit.


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## TexanRose (Jun 11, 2012)

Pilgrim Standard said:


> ...I had not thought of the blue banner (An interpretive recreation.) Do any RPCNA congregations fly, or hang these?



Yes, there was one on the wall in the last RPCNA congregation I attended. It was hanging on the wall at the front, behind the minister. I always thought of it more as a denominational logo than a declaration of loyalty.


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## J. Dean (Jun 11, 2012)

Isn't it less about the object and more about the attitude toward the object? If we're not careful about RPW we could slip into a Pharisaical nitpicking about every little thing in the sanctuary and miss the main point about worship. 

To be frank, I would think we would be so engaged with worship and focus on God that a flag would go unnoticed by us. I certainly don't look for a flag when I go into a sanctuary, for better or for worse, and if I see one and am distracted by it, doesn't that say a little more about me than it does the flag?


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## toddpedlar (Jun 11, 2012)

J. Dean said:


> Isn't it less about the object and more about the attitude toward the object? If we're not careful about RPW we could slip into a Pharisaical nitpicking about every little thing in the sanctuary and miss the main point about worship.
> 
> To be frank, I would think we would be so engaged with worship and focus on God that a flag would go unnoticed by us. I certainly don't look for a flag when I go into a sanctuary, for better or for worse, and if I see one and am distracted by it, doesn't that say a little more about me than it does the flag?



The presence of an American flag in the sanctuary (or flying outside on a pole) says something about the allegiances of the building, whether intentionally or unintentionally. If it is not the intent of the occupants of that building to promote their allegiance to that flag as part of worship (inside) or as part of the church's existence (outside), then they should be swiftly removed by the leadership of the church (with explanation of course, but I don't see the merits of the argument of lengthy teaching on the subject before removing the flags).


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## Marrow Man (Jun 11, 2012)

I would say the the RPCNA banner is exactly the opposite of what American (or other nationality) flags are supposed to represent. Christ is indeed our King, and our Covenanter brothers make sure we remember that, to their great credit. My ARP brothers are also once again beginning to remember what the second part of our name means as well.

For the record, as of last evening, exactly two people have complained/asked about the removal of the flags (but it was clear the lady who asked last evening was speaking on behalf of others). The older folks remember WWII, perhaps either fought in war or know someone who did, etc. It's an emotional issue. But we have two elders who are ex-military and a third whose father was military. Two of our elders are not American. I think all of that goes a long way in communicating the absurdity of using an American symbol in worship.

Comparing the flag to an Asherah pole is not exactly fair. It can have an idolatrous connotation with some folks, but let's not paint everyone with the same brush. Some folks just haven't thought these things through (yet). Yes, absolutely, they should be removed, but a little pastoral gentleness in the matter goes a long way. Many of our churches are following practices copied from mainline churches, and it takes time to undo all of that. You don't get obese in just one day, so don't expect to lose that excess weight in 24 hours either.

The Christian flag is more of a problem in worship, in my opinion. In the article Nathan links, there is obviously unbiblical symbolism connected to the flag. If we are RPW folks, we have no warrant to say "This color represents this, this color represents that" and then put the instrument in a prominent location in the place where we are gathered for worship.


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## Marrow Man (Jun 11, 2012)

OTOH, the Missus just reminded me of the time D. James Kennedy, the week after 9/11, had a 50' tall flag unfurled in the pulpit area of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church and led the congregation in singing "God Bless America." That is one of the worst displays of this sort of nationalistic nonsense that I have ever seen in a supposedly Reformed church. I never watched his TV show after that.


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## OPC'n (Jun 11, 2012)

some places don't own their own church they rent a place the city owns (we use to) and they have flags.....it's no big deal since no one is worshipping the flag. A flag is the least of my problems most of the time. I busy thinking about how well so and so sings or how loud the kid behind me is or "i wonder how old that guy is he can barely walk". A flag just sits there not really distracting to me. of course that's me i have an attention span of a gnat.....


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## Beau Michel (Jun 11, 2012)

The Gospel is supranational.Too often the mindset of God and Country associates the gospel with a particular nation.Jerome was of the opinion that with the collapse of the Roman Empire it would bode ill for the church.Augustine thinking in more biblical terms realized that the City of God did not need the City of man for its survival.A flag in the sanctuary,or in front of the building conveys the idea that the church is a national organization,an arm of the state,which is foreign to the New Testament ideal.


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## RyledPiper (Jun 11, 2012)

Have you ever seen the huge shrines on the walls to Drs. Koop and Barnhouse at Tenth Pres. in Philadelphia? I agree with J. Dean - I could take it or leave it. If I had to design something from scratch, I would leave it out, but it's not the end of the world.


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## NB3K (Jun 11, 2012)

I would just take the American flag down. I am willing to bet that no one would notice.


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## Mushroom (Jun 11, 2012)

I'm just a stranger in a strange land looking for a home in that city whose builder and maker is God, so I'll hold to this:


> Exo 17:15 And Moses built an altar and called the name of it, The LORD Is My Banner,


And this:


> Song 2:4 He brought me to the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love.


Anybody who is of a different mind may freely fly their bloody and earthly war standards whenever and however they wish, it is of no consequence to me... except in the place where the Ancient of Days and King of all Kings is worshipped. All these nations and kingdoms that are the inventions of men shall fall as dust before the throne of our Mighty God, and their morbid banners trodden under the foot of His people as filthy rags. _Except_ those contrivances bow to His majesty and power they shall all likewise perish, and I have yet to see one upon the face of the earth doing so, therefore my hope of such for this one is so minimal as to be non-existent. I just don't see that in the eshaton, 'patriotic' narratives of _exceptionalism_ notwithstanding.

Yep - I stand contrary to the line of earthly nation as idol - always will. Paul had no love for Rome as a nation, his love was reserved for that spiritual nation called Israel. I will follow that example. And, like the Philistines in the presence of David who shadowed our Beloved, there is a day coming when all these nations will know of a surety that there is a God in Israel. The lines of that beautiful country are not found upon this fallen earth, nor in any of its banners.


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