# Can one be regenerate and homosexual at the same time?



## ABondSlaveofChristJesus (May 13, 2005)

just throwing this interesting topic out there.


----------



## fredtgreco (May 13, 2005)

Can one be regenerate and a murderer? An adulterer? A liar?


----------



## rmwilliamsjr (May 13, 2005)

can one be a Christian and still sin?
only perfectionists deny this.
how is the sin of homosexual behavior different than lying or gluttony?

if sanctification is incomplete in this lfe.
and there is no sin so great that Christ can not save us from it, nor any sin so small that it does not condemn, then yes there exist Chrisitans struggling with homosexual behavior as i do with my weight and each Christian does with their sins.


----------



## VirginiaHuguenot (May 13, 2005)

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, *nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,* Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. *And such were some of you:* but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. (I Cor. 6.9-11)

IV. As there is no sin so small, but it deserves damnation;[8] so there is no sin so great, that it can bring damnation upon those who truly repent.[9] 

[8] ROM 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom. 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: MATT 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

[9] ISA. 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. ROM 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. ISA. 1:16 Count not thine handmaid for a daughter of Belial: for out of the abundance of my complaint and grief have I spoken hitherto. 18 And she said, Let thine handmaid find grace in thy sight. So the woman went her way, and did eat, and her countenance was no more sad.

(Westminster Confession, Chap. XV)


----------



## Peter (May 13, 2005)

Follow up: can one be unrepentant of their homosexual behavior, deny it is sin, and be regenerate?


----------



## VirginiaHuguenot (May 13, 2005)

Exodus International:



> Can a person be gay and still be a Christian?
> 
> That depends on your definitions. Yes, a man or woman certainly might struggle with homosexual temptations and even behavior, yet truly be a Christian. However, if someone pursues homosexual involvement and refuses to acknowledge this as sin, it's valid to humbly question whether their commitment to Christ is genuine.
> 
> Some professing Christians tout a "pro-gay theology" which alleges that Scripture has been mistranslated and misinterpreted when it comes to the issue of homosexuality. All prohibitions against homosexual behavior are explained away. Sometimes, same-sex friendships between Bible characters (Jonathan and David; Ruth and Naomi) are said to be model homosexual relationships. This deceptive, seductive, self-justifying theology constitutes Scripture twisting (see 2 Corinthians 4:2).


----------



## fredtgreco (May 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Peter_
> Follow up: can one be unrepentant of their homosexual behavior, deny it is sin, and be regenerate?



While we are not able to see the heart, I would say that in this case the answer would be no, the person is not regenerate.

Sin is one thing, unrepentant sin (and denial of sin) another.


----------



## C. Matthew McMahon (May 13, 2005)

> Sin is one thing, unrepentant sin (and denial of sin) another.



1 John 5:18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 

1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. 

1 John 3:6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 



[habitually]


----------



## Puritan Sailor (May 13, 2005)

I think we need to call homosexuality what it really is too. It's not a condition or life style, or disease. Its sin. Plain and simple. Homosexual lusts and acts are acts of sin and rebellion against God, just like adultery and murder and their corresponding heart sins of lust and anger. We must deal with it on that level. To continue their desires, or even to defend those desires as "natural" is just an excuse to justify their sin, much the same way as people trying to justify adultery and murder.

[Edited on 5-14-2005 by puritansailor]


----------



## PuritanCovenanter (May 13, 2005)

The term *REPROBATE* says it all.


----------



## WrittenFromUtopia (May 13, 2005)

Well, reprobate insinuates a finality; that is, they are NOT elect and never will repent and believe.

As others have said, the focus should be on penitence towards having homosexual lust, just as with anyone with heterosexual lust. If I, as a straight male, lust after females and have no penitence about it within my heart, I am no better off - and just as bad as - than a homosexual male lusting after men.

Follow up 2: *Is homosexuality a "choice" or are some people born with this tendency?* I lean towards the latter, as I see it as a result of original sin, that may be more prominent or dominant in some people's sinful struggles.


----------



## Puritan Sailor (May 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> 
> Follow up 2: *Is homosexuality a "choice" or are some people born with this tendency?* I lean towards the latter, as I see it as a result of original sin, that may be more prominent or dominant in some people's sinful struggles.



It is not a natural desire, in the sense of genetics. It would certainly be an expression of the sinful nature for some, just as other sins may be more prominent in others.


----------



## WrittenFromUtopia (May 13, 2005)

Definitely not a genetic issue, Patrick, I agree. To clarify, I see homosexuality being a result of original sin that is more strongly found in some people's lives, perhaps where Satan knows this person would have a weakness, so as to capitalize on it.


----------



## Peter (May 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Peter_
> ...



How is this different than other theological errors which have practical consequences? For example, Christians that don't believe in the RPW, those who persist in offering God unscriptural worship, they are to an extent idolaters. The bible says idolaters burn in the lake of fire. Rev 21:8. But is there anyone who would exclude any possibility they are regenerate?


----------



## Puritanhead (May 14, 2005)

Christ says unless you repent you shall all likewise perish. The Gospel call is two-pronged, that is "believe" and "repent." In light of 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, I don't see how one can continue to dwell in such a sin, and profess to be a Christian. It's not characteristic of the new man in Christ to practice homosexuality. No amount of Scripture twisting and private interpretation adequately dismisses the clear Biblical denunciations of homosexuality.

Here is some food for thought for the younger PB members: Upon reflection, Ephesians 5 says it's a shame to talk about those things which are done in secret (i.e. sexual immorality, fornication). Too conceive of it, or joke about it, is a sin as well (2 Timothy 2:16; Colossians 4:6). My mother always goaded me and my brother by saying "Takes one to know one" when when were younger and joked about homosexuality like so many juveniles so often do these days. Her pragmatic hope was to quell such foolishness.


----------



## ReformedWretch (May 14, 2005)

So someone who unintentionally worships in the wrong way is on equal ground with a sodomite who refuses to see his error and insists that the Lord made him that way?

If I misunderstood, forgive me.


----------



## ReformedWretch (May 14, 2005)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Peter_
> ...



Proverbs 3:27 As a man thinks in his heart so is he


----------



## ABondSlaveofChristJesus (May 14, 2005)

> _Originally posted by rmwilliamsjr_
> can one be a Christian and still sin?
> only perfectionists deny this.
> how is the sin of homosexual behavior different than lying or gluttony?
> ...



I'm saying homosexal and regenerate at teh same time. Considering themself to be a "gay christian." As they live a homosexual life style and date members of the opposite sex.


----------



## BobVigneault (May 14, 2005)

I'm a bit confused. Romans 1:18ff seems to be saying that homosexuality is the result of the wrath of God on those who suppress the truth. So if a believer can be a homosexual then which came first, the suppression or the wrath? Am I over simplifying Rom. 1:18ff?


----------



## fredtgreco (May 14, 2005)

> _Originally posted by maxdetail_
> I'm a bit confused. Romans 1:18ff seems to be saying that homosexuality is the result of the wrath of God on those who suppress the truth. So if a believer can be a homosexual then which came first, the suppression or the wrath? Am I over simplifying Rom. 1:18ff?



Bob, 

I read Romans 1 to be saying not that homosexuality is a punishment, but rather that God's wrath is that he gives the homnosexual over to his own lust, allowing him to deny the sinfulness of it.

Pretty scary if you ask me.


----------



## BobVigneault (May 14, 2005)

Thanks for throwing sand under my tires there Fred. I'll give that passage another go with your read next time.


----------



## Craig (May 14, 2005)

Can a homosexual show outward Christian fruit? 

We all have sins we fall into...is this something that you can slip into, then simply become desensitized to and actually be regenerate? I think of a cousin of mine. She is very kind and self sacrificing...she reads "Christian" books...many tend toward mysticism...but lives with another woman in a lesbian relationship. She seems so sincere, that my dad, a very conservative man, seems to think she's saved. 

She's not a raving liberal protestant like some...though I'm sure she's quite liberal. But it's difficult to say for certain that "she's not regenerate".


----------



## BobVigneault (May 15, 2005)

I was just reading some more in Thomas Watson's Ten Commandments and he say's that the true Christian is one who delights in the Lord.

Isn't that the Golden Key in this topic? Tim brought up a sin that is very distateful to us all, Fred quickly compared it to other sins to remind us that we are speaking of sinfulness, not the locked state of the reprobate but the horrible residue of a sin nature. Love is the queen of graces because it turns our God-hating heart to a God-delighting heart.

Can we find the sin of homosexual acts in a person who delights in the Lord? Yes, we can but we can also expect that person to change their behavior BECAUSE they delight in the Lord and in His commandments.

From the moment of regeneration we are working out what God has graciously worked in. The rapidity with which we change is a product of God's grace first and foremost and then, our awareness of sin, our hatred for our sin, our confession and repentance and the grace to take a God-ward direction.

There is always a lag time. We can't see the inner struggle in others as the old and new natures battle against each other. We ARE aware of it in ourselves. The new creature WILL display new behavior, but it's a process. We will work out our salvation in fear and trembling because we delight in the Lord.

RWP used to disgust me but now it has changed my worship experience because I find the God has told us how he should be worshipped, that there is a proper way to worship. I was not motivated by a sense of legalism but my delight, my preference, my love for God.

I have no doubt that my paedo brothers on this board are paedo because they delight in the Lord and his commandments. I may get there for the same reason.

So even the Arminian is a true believer if he delights in the Lord. But we will watch expectantly to see his eyes open to the sovereignty of God in salvation. We will be there to catch him when his knees buckle under the weight of God's holiness.

Delight in God seems to me the golden key, without this delight in Him we all quickly become pharisees.


----------



## default (May 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by maxdetail_
> ...



Fred, that's the way I see it also. Giving them over to a reprobate mind .. I'm reminded of Pharoah having a hardened heart against God's people, and finally God hardened Pharoah's heart. Let's take a further look at major disasters in the scripture shall we? Granted some were caused by other acts, but the majors, Sodom, Gommorhea and the cities of the plain were due to homosexuality. And the Flood was due to sexual sin. It seems to me that sexual sin is punished greatly and despised in the sight of God. The other one that's punished to great extents is worshipping false gods. Following the gods of their own desires. (Rom 1). 

If we are abiding in Christ, obeying His commandments sin will make themselves manifest. I recently was thinking of starting a thread about "be sure your sins will find you out." When I used to read that I thought it meant other people. And yes, it will be evident to other people when we are not abiding in the secret place. Who says what is sin? I mean, Paul wrote what is sin for one man may not be considered sin to another, he was speaking of, at the time, eating meat sacrificed to false gods. But we can take that into account ourselves. One person here may be able to browse the internet without feeling guilty. Because they are disciplined in their walk and don't spend hour upon hour online, while yet another, it seems to be their entire life, taking him/her out of fellowship with God, and thus sin. But thinking on the subject more, it seems to me that "be sure your sins will find you out" is speaking more of being held accountable, not only to the Body of Christ, the Church, but also, and more importantly, to GOD Himself! God is not mocked! 

So back to the original thread, if we are in Christ, and God designed man AND woman, and commanded the two shall be one, who are we to go against God and call it "righteous" or even "born with it."?


----------



## Texas Aggie (May 15, 2005)

If you are under the New Covenant, why do you choose to continue to sin? You have the law written in your heart and you have the Spirit indwelling inside (the equipment to obey His law).

There is absolutely no such thing as a Christian homosexual.... get real. Anyone who leads a life of sin is simply under the law... you have no outward indication of salvation whatsoever. Obviously God has not given you a heart transplant to know Him... in addition, you do not have His law written in your heart and in you mind. His Spirit is not dwelling within; you have something else taking up residence there.

Sin is sin, the degree of homosexuality however ranks amongst the most severe judgment.. it is one of the worst abominations to God.

The is no such regeneration in any man living a life of willful sin.


----------



## Tirian (May 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Texas Aggie_
> There is absolutely no such thing as a Christian homosexual....



Amen.


----------



## biblelighthouse (May 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Texas Aggie_
> The is no such regeneration in any man living a life of willful sin.



So I guess King David was an unregenerate pagan for the year that he was involved in adultery and murder, huh?


----------



## Texas Aggie (May 16, 2005)

King David is always a wonderful example. He was the apple of God´s eye and was in fact living in willful sin (he also recognized this and repented). Again, I do not know why we choose to live in sin after we have received the means to resist (other than an exercise of our will). David was not under the New Covenant and thus had not the equipment to obey the law of God (this is not an excuse for his sin, it is just something we now have from God that they didn't). We have those gifts from God given under the terms of the New Covenant because of the satisfaction of Christ.

I am also not the judge. If God chooses to reveal Himself on one's deathbed, great. I can however, discern what is good and evil by the law of God. As a man, I can only look at the outward manifestation of what someone has inside. Homosexuals engaging in all there activities, public and private, partake in nothing that is of the law of God. As a result, I can discern that they are without His law, His Spirit and His resurrected life. 

An unregenerate, active & practicing homosexual may also be the apple of God´s eye (they may be one of the elect). A regenerated man however, obeys the law of God. An active homosexual has no law and no means to obey the law; therefore, he is unholy & unregenerate. The is no such thing as a Christian homosexual, they simply do not exist.


----------



## biblelighthouse (May 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Texas Aggie_
> David was not under the New Covenant and thus had not the equipment to obey the law of God (this is not an excuse for his sin, it is just something we now have from God that they didn't). We have those gifts from God given under the terms of the New Covenant because of the satisfaction of Christ.



What exactly do we have that David did not have?




> _Originally posted by Texas Aggie_
> A regenerated man however, obeys the law of God. An active homosexual has no law and no means to obey the law; therefore, he is unholy & unregenerate. The is no such thing as a Christian homosexual, they simply do not exist.



Are you sure? Even after I was regenerate, I struggled with various sins, including lust. I didn't act upon it. But Jesus said that a man is guilty of adultery if he even so much as looks upon a woman improperly. When I was going through that struggle, I was not obeying that law of God. Was I therefore unregenerate? Or are you suggesting that homosexuality is somehow more evil than heterosexual lust?


----------



## turmeric (May 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Texas Aggie_
> Again, I do not know why we choose to live in sin after we have received the means to resist (other than an exercise of our will).




BECAUSE WE ARE SINNERS!!


----------



## Puritanhead (May 16, 2005)

I'm just curious--- where do those questions come from?


----------



## Texas Aggie (May 16, 2005)

Why you choose to sin, is between you and God... especially considering the New Covenant. I know that unregenerate men are "sinners" and they have no means to obey the law of God. You, on the other hand have been made partakers of the New Covenant and have the means to obey the law.

This is what we have today under the New Covenant:

1. God has circirumcised our heart and has given us a heart to know Him.
2. He has put His law into our hearts and in our minds.
3. He has placed His fear into our hearts.
4. He has placed a new Spirit (the Holy Spirit) within us.

These are the specific provisions that God has provided the elect under the terms of the New Covenant. He has specifically given us His Spirit and the heart transplant so that we may walk is His statutes, to keep His law.

You can exercise your will to disobey God. The New Covenant has provided you with the law and the means to obey the law. Again, like I said before, I do not know why you now choose to disobey after haven been given all the provisions established in the New Covenant. You make a choice now, just as Adam had a choice before the fall to either obey or disobey God's law. You make a conscious choice to disobey the law through willful disobedience to God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit dwelling inside the temple of God which is you.

Spiritual application of the law is even a higher standard than what was given to Moses. As you mentioned, lust in your heart without action is also sin (but you chose to lust). You also probably repented and asked your High Priest, Jesus Christ to forgive your iniquity. Only He can recognize true repentance and save you from your sins.

If you want to continue and justify your sin by saying "we are all sinners" go ahead. Again, I am not the Judge. There is a strive for holiness and perfection we should all take heed and your will is intimately involved with the New Covenant. I believe this is the process of sanctification... the Holy Spirit has been given to help us in this matter. 

I will also suggest that homosexuality is one of the worst abominations to God. We know this from the judgments. Heterosexual impurity did not carry the same penalty unless adultery was involved. Sin is sin, but we know there are different judgments (hence a degree of severity towards certain acts of breaking the law).


----------



## biblelighthouse (May 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Texas Aggie_
> 
> This is what we have today under the New Covenant:
> 
> ...




Agreed. But are you suggesting that King David in the Old Testament did not have the same things?

David's heart was circumcised.
God's law was written in David's heart.
David feared God.
The Holy Spirit was in David.

What is different between an Old Testament believer and a New Testament believer?


(By the way, I do not struggle with lust like I did years ago. I was just using that as an example, and not as any excuse for current sin.)


----------



## Tirian (May 17, 2005)

Joseph,

The difference is the King David committed these acts and was then mortified by the sin and repented. When convicted of them, he didn't continue in adultery, nor did he continue to murder other men because of his adulterous heart.

You mentioned struggling with certain types of sins and I can identify with you. The point is though we struggle and through Christ's strength alone we overcome. The practising homosexual is not struggling to stop the abomination - it's a good indicator (though of course God is the judge) that they are not saved. Noone who loves God can continue happily in an habitual sinful act.

Matthew


----------



## turmeric (May 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Texas Aggie_
> Why you choose to sin, is between you and God... especially considering the New Covenant. I know that unregenerate men are "sinners" and they have no means to obey the law of God. You, on the other hand have been made partakers of the New Covenant and have the means to obey the law.



Two questions for you;
1. Do you sin?
2. Why?


----------



## biblelighthouse (May 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Matthew Glover_
> Joseph,
> 
> The difference is the King David committed these acts and was then mortified by the sin and repented. When convicted of them, he didn't continue in adultery, nor did he continue to murder other men because of his adulterous heart.
> ...



Matthew,

I agree with the heart of what you're saying, but I think you are making it too cut-and-dried.

Remember, David did NOT repent immediately after committing adultery and murder. It was nearly a year later before he did that.

Are you saying that it wouldn't be possible for a homosexual person to get saved, walk with Christ for years, and then fall back into the gay lifestyle for a few months? Suppose that 9 months into it, he repents and turns back to the Lord. Would you really tell him that he was never "really" saved until just then? Or would you just recognize that he had sinned like King David, but had taken several months to repent?

Or are you just saying that we might *think* a person unsaved if they fell back into that lifestyle for months, but that we wouldn't know for sure? In that case, I would probably agree with you.


----------



## alwaysreforming (May 17, 2005)

I agree with Joseph's assessment. Not only do Christians "struggle" with sin, sometimes they may even willfully "go along with it" for a period of time. Someone above mentioned "lusting". Well, not only have I lusted, a few times my body followed the path of my mind and I sinned; and yes, after becoming a Christian. God forbid that should happen again though! 

Homosexuals go through the same thing. Certainly, their lusts are perverted, and they may have a moment, or several, of failure during the course of their Christian walks. (Hopefully not many!) But if becoming a Christian means getting so completely cleaned up that we are now subjectively righteous and holy, then I'm afraid I may have missed the mark on that one. And in that fear I will cling extra closely to Jesus Christ, because I haven't got a prayer in this world of pulling it off.

Christ came to save sinners. Sure they get better. Sure they begin to hate their sin. Sure they experience real and dramatic growth in sanctification. But we must always remember to leave room for the failures, and for the people with extra difficult struggles (such as homosexuality can often be). As an aside, I saw a "girl" on TV the other day that had "female body parts" but actually had MALE genetics/chromosomes/DNA/whatever-you-call-em. 
Who knows what's sometimes going on in these people that "SHOULD" conform to one sex, but due to some messed up chemistry are forced to live lives of constant confusion, frustration, and alienation. We better not be too-quick to judge; our Savior just may have come to save them, too!


----------



## Texas Aggie (May 17, 2005)

Hello fellas, sorry I could not reply... had to go on a brief trip.

Joseph, you pose an excellent question about David that I simply can not answer right now. I will look at the topic of OT means of grace as it relates to the gifts we have been given under the New Covenant.... I do believe there is a difference, but I need to be able to support it with scripture. Hang-on.

Meg, as for your question:

Yes, I sin. The reason I sin under the New Covenant is because I have a will to choose sin over the obedience to the will of God. It is my choice, even though the Spirit provides a means to resist or escape. The elect still have a will and this is the only reason we (those placed in Christ) sin. I will say, that my love for sin has changed considerably over the years... this is the process of sanctification. I hate sin. My strive for perfection and holiness through the power of the Spirit is not an overnight ordeal... I'm not there yet. God is still working on me.

As for practicing/active/engaging homosexuals who may profess to be Christians, they are still not demonstrating an outward manifestation of God's Spirit within (there are other spirits there). Homosexuals are addicted to their sins... they have a profound love for it and they will not let it go.

A regenerated man, who has the law, the Spirit and resurrected life loves God, loves Christ & loves God's law. Through the Spirit, a regenerated man is taught the means of sanctification (which is simply obedience to the will of the Father). As a Christian matures in holiness, sin makes its way out of his life and now you are able to draw near to God, closer and closer everyday. 

To say, we all sin because we are sinners would be like saying Adam sinned because he was also a sinner. Adam was perfect & blameless before God. He did not have a sinful nature until he willfully disobeyed the law of God. A regenerated man has been restored to the condition of Adam before the fall, but like Adam... we still have a will. It is better to say, that the elect sin because they choose to sin... not because we are sinners. The unregenerate are sinners. We were once sinners.


----------



## biblelighthouse (May 17, 2005)

Thank you for your reply. I am enjoying this discussion. 

I do have a question about one thing you said:



> _Originally posted by Texas Aggie_
> 
> A regenerated man has been restored to the condition of Adam before the fall



I don't agree with that particular point. Would you please elaborate, and point out specific Scripture to support that idea?


----------



## turmeric (May 17, 2005)

Phew, I thought we had a Wesleyan! Wasn't sure what to do about it, either.

Yes, I agree, continued flagrant sin would be clear evidence that someone isn't regenerate. I think a person might have a lifelong struggle with a particular sin, but the operative word here is struggle.


----------



## Irishcat922 (May 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by turmeric_
> Yes, I agree, continued flagrant sin would be clear evidence that someone isn't regenerate. I think a person might have a lifelong struggle with a particular sin, but the operative word here is struggle.


----------



## biblelighthouse (May 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Irishcat922_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by turmeric_
> > Yes, I agree, continued flagrant sin would be clear evidence that someone isn't regenerate. I think a person might have a lifelong struggle with a particular sin, but the operative word here is struggle.


----------



## VirginiaHuguenot (May 18, 2005)

Chapter XVIII of the Westminster Confession is a good place to go for discerning the difference between a hypocritical profession of faith and credible profession from a struggling believer.


----------



## biblelighthouse (May 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> Chapter XVIII of the Westminster Confession is a good place to go for discerning the difference between a hypocritical profession of faith and credible profession from a struggling believer.



Good point, Andrew. Here's the text of it:

CHAPTER XVIII
Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation
I. Although hypocrites and other unregenerate men may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favor of God, and estate of salvation[349] (which hope of theirs shall perish):[350] yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavoring to walk in all good conscience before him, may, in this life, be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace,[351] and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed.[352] 

II. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope;[353] but an infallible assurance of faith founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation,[354] the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made,[355] the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God,[356] which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.[357] 

III. This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it:[358] yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto.[359] And therefore it is the duty of everyone to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure,[360] that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience,[361] the proper fruits of this assurance; so far is it from inclining men to looseness.[362] 

IV. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it, by falling into some special sin which woundeth the conscience and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation, by God´s withdrawing the light of his countenance, and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light:[363] yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be revived;[364] and by the which, in the meantime, they are supported from utter despair.[365] 

And the proofs are available right here: http://www.opc.org/documents/WCF_frames.html


----------



## Texas Aggie (May 18, 2005)

To have given us the order of an archangel, or a seraphim/cherub would have been still greater; but I believe God does so much more than that for us anyway. But, let me give you my perspective on Adam and our restoration to the likeness of God.

1 Corinthians 15:21-22 states "œFor since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

Ephesians 1:4 states "œAccording as he hath chosen us (the elect) in him (Jesus Christ) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love..."

All of us are "œin" Adam. The human race can be physically traced back to the loins of Adam. You were once "œin" your father, your father was once "œin" your grandfather and so on all the way back to Adam. Fortunately we (the elect) were placed "œin" Christ from before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame. This indicates that although we are born of Adam´s fallen state, we are also born of Christ´s provision for being made alive (since we were fallen & dead). The reversal of being fallen and dead brings us to Adam´s original condition. In Adam we are all dead, In Christ we are made alive.

Adam was made in the likeness and image of God before he made a bad choice. He was a man made of righteousness & true holiness (and that was his nature and desire). His bad choice subsequently resulted in the loss of his righteousness and true holiness... as well as gained a few curses for himself and all of us. Under the New Covenant, we (the elect) have a new life in Christ... "œmade a new creature in the likeness and image of righteousness and true holiness" (Ephesians 4:23-24). Adam simply made the wrong choice.... and now we can also.

As for our discussion on homosexuals....they show no outward indication of righteousness and true holiness. Homosexuality is a perversion of God´s natural means of procreation. A regenerated "œsinner" who once was held under such an addiction, may in fact have a "œstruggle" with same sex lust and desire. Images of unnatural sex may filter into a believers mind through unholy spiritual influence; however, a choice is still involved. They have a choice to allow such garbage into the temple of God (an aspect that shows a responsibility we have that Adam did not). Overtime, the process of sanctification by the Spirit may provide the power for an individual to overcome any possible desire for such sin. The addiction is gone, the unholy influence is gone. But I will still attest that you have a will to choose over the leadership of the Spirit. You may never draw near to God because you choose to live a life of willful sin over and over again after you have received the knowledge of the truth.

I believe that sanctification is an act of God, Christ and the Holy Spirit that entails the cleansing of the elect. God causes the elect to be holy in Jesus Christ as well as in the believer himself; because the body is the temple (made possible through the workings of the Spirit as well as the individual). The believer´s will is also involved with this process (current sanctification). I think our sanctification can be broken down into three aspects: we have already been sanctified (from before the foundation of the world), we are currently being sanctified (Spirit leading us to absolute holiness & drawing us near to God), and finally, we will be completely sanctified sometime in the future (probably at our death and standing before the throne of God).

P.S. I am not the judge and all the above mentioned commentary is just my perspective on the issue. I am also not a theological expert, I have no credentials, nor do I affirm to fully understand the workings of God and His provision of salvation. I could be way out in left field.


----------



## biblelighthouse (May 18, 2005)

So, Matt, you are not saying that Christians are *currently* perfect and pure as Adam was before the fall? 

If not, then we agree. Everybody on this board agrees that we will be perfectly pure and holy once we are entirely sanctified and glorified after death.

I just thought you were saying that we *currently* are returned to Adam's pre-fall state. And that would certainly not be true.


----------



## Texas Aggie (May 19, 2005)

No, I do not see Christians as perfect and pure as Adam was. We know sin, Adam did not. There is a perfecting that continually takes place within the believer (sanctification). I don't believe we are there yet.

What I am trying to convey is that we have been restored back to the state Adam was in before the fall in terms of one's "position/relation" to God. This is part of our restoration... and we have so much more than Adam ever had... least of which is the knowledge of sin (pre-fall Adam). We also have the means to combat the temptation.

I see our position "in Christ" as a state even higher than Adam (bearing much more responsibility). Our position is the same as Christ Himself because of His satisfaction/atonement of the law. We are glorified together, sufferers together, heirs together (Romans 8:17), crucified together (Romans 6:6), quickened together (Eph. 2:5), buried together (Col 2:12), and risen together (Col 3:1-3).

Our life here involves application of what the scriptures declare, chiefly obedience to the law. We are to act in accordance with our "position." A fish acts like a fish, a dog acts like a dog, sinner acts like a sinner. We are a child of God (as Adam), restored to His favor and given great gifts under the terms of the New Covenant which equip us with the means to draw near to Him.

Knowing this is amazing to me. Why we choose to live in sin, having this knowledge, is beyond me. Now, we simply sin because we make a choice to do so.

No such child of God exists who lives life as a practicing homosexual. He loves not God, nor the Sprit, nor the provisions of Christ and he especially hates the law.


----------



## biblelighthouse (May 19, 2005)

I liked most of what you had to say, up to this point:



> _Originally posted by Texas Aggie_
> 
> No such child of God exists who lives life as a practicing homosexual. He loves not God, nor the Sprit, nor the provisions of Christ and he especially hates the law.



I am uncomfortable with such a categorical, universal statement. Are you suggesting that a person who slips back into practicing sexual sin for a while is *definitely* unsaved? Is it not possible for "real Christians" to slip into adultery for a time? If so, then why not homosexuality? Both are certainly wicked and disgusting. But I am not ready to say that sexual sin is *absolute* proof that a person is unregenerate. I think the Bible teaches otherwise.

Once again, I go back to King David. He was a practicing adulterer and a practicing murderer. Was he therefore not a child of God? Did he not love God? Did he not have the spirit? Did he not have the provisions of Christ? Did he hate the law?


----------



## Texas Aggie (May 19, 2005)

I do not know what condition a person is in if they slip back into sin, continue to sin, or live a life full of sin. I am not the judge. One's sin is strictly between the two parties of the covenant (God & His individual elect). Naturally, some sin can spill over and affect family, friends, whoever. All I can see is the outside of the cup (which displays willful disobedience to the law). I may discern the individual is either:

1. An unregenerate sinner.
2. A saint who has made a bad choice.

Hopefully #2 will repent and ask for forgiveness (continual sprinkling by our High Priest... we have this provision through Christ). Sanctification will draw one closer and closer to God if the individual allows leadership of the Spirit within. If sin persists and this is truly a child of God, chastening may play a factor (even if it kills them). God has an infinite number of ways to draw you near to Him.... or you may never draw near to Him. You may be content standing just inside the gates of heaven.

Now, other than chastening, I am not exactly sure what God does with those who have been made partakers of the New Covenant and have received the knowledge of the truth who continue to sin willfully over and over again. This may be what Hebrews 10:26-29 is speaking of. I don't know.

As for David, I believe he was a child of God. Did he sin?.. yes. Every indication we have about David through the scripture indicates he loved the Lord, the law and the provision of salvation.

I will say that I am not too concerned with the life of David or his example. I take heed to myself and my family first through the provision of justification & sanctification given to us by God. David's redemption and ability to draw near to God is between God & David, yet his story is shared with us. With this in mind, hindsight is in fact 20/20... we have the story of David and his life but we also have the entire New Testament. We have the revealed knowledge of God contained in both the Old & the New Covenants. In this age, I think we may have no excuse.

As I mentioned before, all I can see is an outward manifestation of what spirit is working within a man. We all like to ask: Well, are they saved? I think it is better to ask: Have they repented? Nobody knows who is saved... but repentance and obedience to the law are very good indications. 

If one lives a life of willful disobedience to the law of God, they have no visible appearance of salvation; therefore I may discern that they are not a child of God. I do not pose the question concerning one's salvation.... I can only see if they have repented (and the results of such repentance).


----------



## kevin.carroll (May 19, 2005)

Yep


----------



## kevin.carroll (May 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> ...



I think you mean Prov. 23:7. The use of it here is a travesty of hermeneutics, btw. You might as well quote Eph. 4:28 (KJV), "Let him that stole, steal."


----------



## kevin.carroll (May 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Matthew Glover_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Texas Aggie_
> ...



Or Christian adulterers...
Or Christian murderers...
Or Christian liars...
Or Christian coveters...
Or Christian thieves...

Oh, wait a minute, yes there are...Let's not confuse our revulsion over a particular sin with salvation. I think we would all agree that Christians sometimes fall into heterosexual adultery, would we not? How is homosexual adultery any different (other than the unthinkable mechanics of it)?


----------



## kevin.carroll (May 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Texas Aggie_
> King David is always a wonderful example. He was the apple of God´s eye and was in fact living in willful sin (he also recognized this and repented). Again, I do not know why we choose to live in sin after we have received the means to resist (other than an exercise of our will). David was not under the New Covenant and thus had not the equipment to obey the law of God (this is not an excuse for his sin, it is just something we now have from God that they didn't). We have those gifts from God given under the terms of the New Covenant because of the satisfaction of Christ.
> 
> I am also not the judge. If God chooses to reveal Himself on one's deathbed, great. I can however, discern what is good and evil by the law of God. As a man, I can only look at the outward manifestation of what someone has inside. Homosexuals engaging in all there activities, public and private, partake in nothing that is of the law of God. As a result, I can discern that they are without His law, His Spirit and His resurrected life.
> ...



Have you ever lied since your conversion? :bigsmile:


----------



## kevin.carroll (May 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Texas Aggie_
> Why you choose to sin, is between you and God... especially considering the New Covenant. I know that unregenerate men are "sinners" and they have no means to obey the law of God. You, on the other hand have been made partakers of the New Covenant and have the means to obey the law.
> 
> This is what we have today under the New Covenant:
> ...



I as again, have you ever lied? Did you realize that lying is also an abomination (Prov. 6:16-17)?

There are two things going on it this thread that are troubling to me: 1). We seem to be importing our natural revulsion for a very contemporary issue and using it to unduly shape our hermeneutics. Lying is also called an abomination in the Bible (repeatedly) yet where is the outrage over that sin? 2). Those who are aregue that a homosexual cannot be regenerate are coming very close to arguing for Christian perfectionism, which is, of course, Arminian male bovine excrement. :bigsmile:


----------



## kevin.carroll (May 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Matthew Glover_Noone who loves God can continue happily in an habitual sinful act.



Agreed, but "happily" is a key word. Let's not take Romans 7 out of our Christian lives. We struggle with sin because we are sinners. We continue to be sinners after regeneration. By your own admission, you continue to struggle with sin. I'm willing to bet a donut that your struggles involve failure (e.g. sin). So, when does sin become habitual and, therefore, and indication of not being regnerated? After two occurrences? 3? 5? 10? The Bible doesn't say. I think therein is part of the admonition for us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. We really only have confidence in our salvation as we see it evidenced in our lives. Growth in sanctification is one HUGE evidence...but it doesn't mean that we will ever reach a place this side of glory that we don't sin.


----------



## Texas Aggie (May 19, 2005)

Kevin,

This is apples and oranges. We are talking about living a life of willful sin (whether one is addicted to homosexuality, cigarettes, narcotics, women other than one's wife, lying, cheating, killing or whatever fancies one's personal taste).

As for me, yes I have lied after conversion... but I did it because I chose to do it (even when I was provided an out). Have I repented... yes. Do I make a conscience effort with the power of the Holy Spirit to say "I WILL NOT DO THIS"... yes. Do I have an addiction to lying... no. Do I hate lying... yes. There is a huge difference Kevin. 

You are correct to say that heterosexual sex via adultery is just as much an abomination... I would agree with you completely. I would also say there is no such thing as a Christian adulterer either (it does not exist). I am not talking about isolated sins in the life of the believer. I am talking about willful disobedience to the law of God occurring over and over again with no repentance. Please read all of the posts concerning this topic.

I never said a homosexual could never be a regenerated man. They are sinners just as we were. They may also be the elect of God, created new creatures in Christ. Once regenerated, he may strugle for a time, but sanctification will eventually cause him to reject such sin (if he allows the Spirit to work). The Holy Spirit can not work contrary to the law of God; therefore, there is no such thing as a Christian homosexual.

As I mentioned before, all I can see is an outward manifestation of what spirit is working within a man. We all like to ask: Well, are they saved? I think it is better to ask: Have they repented? Nobody knows who is saved... but repentance and obedience to the law are very good indications. 

If one lives a life of willful disobedience to the law of God, they have no visible appearance of salvation; therefore I may discern that they are not a child of God. I do not pose the question concerning one's salvation.... I can only see if they have repented (and the results of such repentance).


----------



## biblelighthouse (May 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> . . . Arminian male bovine excrement. :bigsmile:






Man, that's priceless. I have to start using that one myself. . . .


----------



## kevin.carroll (May 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Texas Aggie_
> Kevin,
> 
> This is apples and oranges. We are talking about living a life of willful sin (whether one is addicted to homosexuality, cigarettes, narcotics, women other than one's wife, lying, cheating, killing or whatever fancies one's personal taste).
> ...



No, I don't think we are talking apples and oranges. In fact, I think we are in complete agreement. I just thought I detected a hint to perfectionism in your posts and I was trying to ferret that out.


----------

