# "freewill"



## sola_gratia (Aug 2, 2005)

When people ask me if I believe we have "freewill" am I right in telling them no? 

Sorry if my questions seem simply-minded; I am still fairly new to calvinism.


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## sola_gratia (Aug 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by joshua_
> Levi,
> You are correct in saying "No" if the context is concerning fallen man. Fallen man has a will captive and enslaved to sin. Thus, it is not free. Now, man has free choice, but will ALWAYS choose the wrong, sinfulf, thing until penetrated by the overpowering, changing, grace of God which enables the sinner to see his true condition.



Well, I was reading in the post titled "Does God ordain sin to occur", and I was wondering, if God ordains everything that comes to pass do we really have freewill?


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## Poimen (Aug 3, 2005)

"Man is free to be who he is."

-Dana Scully


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## Romans922 (Aug 3, 2005)

"Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven"
-Charles Spurgeon


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## brymaes (Aug 3, 2005)

> Well, I was reading in the post titled "Does God ordain sin to occur", and I was wondering, if God ordains everything that comes to pass do we really have freewill?



God is the only being that has an absolutly free will. Our free choice is subject the the truly free ordination of God. God's choice is antecedent to ours.


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## sola_gratia (Aug 3, 2005)

Ok, so fallen man does not have freewill, but regenerate man does. How does this come into play with God ordaining everything that comes to pass? If he ordains what we do, including sin...is it freewill as arminians define freewill? ( I don't disagree with the doctrines of grace I am just wondering if freewill is the best term to use when talking about the regenerate.)


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## brymaes (Aug 3, 2005)

I think Boettner used the analogy of a fish being carried about in a fishbowl. From the perspective of the fish, he could swim about wherever he chose. But the fish is ignorant of the owner who is carrying him down the street. The broad and consquential movments were far outside his control, even though he had freedom in his little sphere.


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## andreas (Aug 3, 2005)

The will of God is the only will which is absolutely free. His will is not determined by anyone or anything outside of Himself.


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## andreas (Aug 3, 2005)

"A man´s heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps."
Prov 16:9. 

We ought to humbly praise the Lord whose purposes shape our lives.


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## BrianBowman (Aug 3, 2005)

Levi,

I've been helped much on this topic by R.C. Sproul's books/audio on "Chosen by God", "Willing to Believe", and "Justification by Faith (studied in that order). These works are accessible without a seminary-level education, yet at the same time they are heavily footnoted and packed with solid Biblical content exposited in the context of various arguments and central figures in Church History.

I would start with these works by Sproul and then study "Bondage of the Will" by Luther and "Freedom of the Will" by Jonathan Edwards. The "Reformed Doctrine of Predestination" by Boettner is also excellent.

Of course you can do no better than to study Ezek. 36:26 (and its N.T. fulfillment as explained in Hebrews 8) Eph 1-2, John 3, sections from John 5, 6, 10, & 17, Romans 8-11, etc. These Scriptures, when allowed to stand on their own, demonstrate the overwhelming truth that natural man is "dead in trespasses and sin" and must be "made alive" by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, as expressed through God's sovereign grace *before* authentic repentance & faith can occur.

Another great resouce is the DVD "Amazing Grace - The History and Theology of Calvinism".


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Aug 3, 2005)

If I have this all wrong please tear this post apart ASAP. I am almost certain it is right from what I have read over the last year on the subject.

I just want to lay aside the term 'free will' as it means so many different things. People have _a_ will which is seperate from everyone else (ie. we do not think what everyone else thinks etc... we are individuals). To this extent it is _free_ as in it has a certain liberty or seperation of thought. This, while sometimes called free will, is not how many people today understand it. We do not have the ability with our depraved will to choose God by ourselves. I think Romans922 gave a good quote by Charles Spurgeon - "Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven".

I hope I made some sense as I have only been Reformed for a year now.


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## BobVigneault (Aug 3, 2005)

The important step in any argument over free will is to define your terms (typical soft-clarkian statement). I always begin with this definition.

Freewill is the ability to freely choose that which we desire the most.

Using this definition we do have freewill but as has been pointed out, we will choose freely according to our nature. God cannot choose against His nature and neither can we. Will is never free of our nature but we may have two natures that war within us.
The unbeliever has one fallen nature, the believer has 2. (Romans 7) The unbeliever is free to choose hell. The believer is free to not sin.

Most people define free will as free agency and that quickly leads to confusion. We intuitively know that we choose all the day long. God has made us to be decision makers. We can never decide against that which we desire the most and the unsaved person is a God hater by nature.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Aug 3, 2005)

> _Originally posted by BrianBowman_
> study "Bondage of the Will" by Luther and "Freedom of the Will" by Jonathan Edwards. The "Reformed Doctrine of Predestination" by Boettner is also excellent.
> 
> Of course you can do no better than to study Ezek. 36:26 (and its N.T. fulfillment as explained in Hebrews 8) Eph 1-2, John 3, sections from John 5, 6, 10, & 17, Romans 8-11, etc. These Scriptures, when allowed to stand on their own, demonstrate the overwhelming truth that natural man is "dead in trespasses and sin" and must be "made alive" by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, as expressed through God's sovereign grace *before* authentic repentance & faith can occur.


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## Scott (Aug 3, 2005)

Levi: Whatever you do, do not come to think that Calvinism teaches that man has no free will. His will is free from some things and not free form others. I think it is important to clarify kinds of freedom. In other words, whenever someone says "free" we should ask "free from what." Here are the kinds of freedom that tend to get mixed into discussions about free will and people often equivocate.

[1] *Freedom to make genuinely good or evil decisions. * 

In his estate of innocence Adam had this kind of freedom. His moral character was such that it could produce good or evil works. After the fall, the natural (unredeemed) man's moral character was such that it could produce only evil. The natural man is like a poison tree - all of his fruits are poison. He is a slave to sin, obeying his master. I have heard a helpful phrase to understand this: "Man is free to do what he wants, but not what he ought." 

After coming to faith in Christ, he is in a position similar to the original Adam (although not quite - a redeemed man still must war against a remnant of a body of sin that Adam did not have in his original state), in that he can do good or evil. After death and glorification, man will lose the freedom to do evil and will have a character that produces only good. 

[2] *Natural liberty, or freedom from natural determinism.*

Some people argue that we are just cause-and-effect in the course of nature. We make choices because chemical reactions compel us to do things. We are like cogs in a machine. This is error. The WCF affirms that we, like God, have a sort of freedom that is not absolutely determine by nature. WCF 9.1: "God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to good, or evil."

You should be able to agree with non-Calvinists on this point.

[3] *Freedom from God's providence and eternal decree.*

Some people argue that God does not predestine people in any way. he simply looks down the corriders of time, which he does not plan out or control and see what people are going to do. This is error. God plans out and superintends over ever aspect of reality, including the actions of men.

Now, it should be pointed out that this does not offend the natural liberty of man. He makes real choices. In its typical precision, WCF 3.1 summarizes like this: "God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."

Note that whatever mysterious mechanism God uses does not "offer violence to the will of the creatures." 

Arminians and others typically try and maintain people are free from God's eternal decrees, and the Arminians are wrong here. In discussing with others, it is helpful to clearly state that you believe that it is performed by a mechanism that does not violate the wills of the creatures. The creatures make their own true choices. They are not robots. As I heard Bahnsen describe it, "God foreordains man's free choices" or something like that. 

Anyway, those three types of freedom are the ones I see most commonly. Allot of Calvinists ignore the strong affirmations of freedom in the WCF and other Reformed doctrines. Man makes true choices. Emphasis on these affirmations can help bridge gaps with and persuade Arminians. 

Scott


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Aug 3, 2005)

Overview of Human Nature in its Fourfold State by Thomas Boston


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## Scott (Aug 3, 2005)

Levi: If you want precise definitions of Refomed teaching, go to the Westminster Confession, especially chapters III ("Eternal Decree"), V ("Providence"), and IX ("Free Will"). Chapter III address how our freedom relates to God's eternal decrees. Chapter V discusses how our freedom relates to God's providence (his governing us in time). Chapter IX addresses the freedom of the will to make volitional decisions as well as man's freedom to make genuinely moral decisions. 

One must separate out these distinct types of freedom. Until one can do this, it will always be a fog.


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## Texas Aggie (Aug 3, 2005)

You have a will but it is by no means free. As an unregenerate, you do the will of your father who is the devil. Once regenerated, your will is aligned with God's (a provision of the New Covenant... heart transplant). 

Once you have been made a partaker of the New Covenant, your will is still not free... you are to do nothing but obey the laws of His kingdom via the power and guidance of the His Spirit.

There is no "free will" on either side of the fence. You either do the will of the devil, or you do God's. Man has a choice, just as Adam, to disobey or obey the law of God. The only choice you have in this world is whether or not you obey the law.


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## sola_gratia (Aug 3, 2005)

Ah, thank you everyone, your help is much appreciated. I will look into getting a hold of those books. I think I understand it now. We do make real decisions, but they cannot violate God's decretive will. God through some mechanism ordains everything that comes to pass without violating the will of his creatures.


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## Scott (Aug 3, 2005)

Levi: Well said.

In terms of moral freedom, I have found this expression helpful (I got it from Back to Basics): "Man is free to do what he wants but not what he ought." 

I highly recommend a close and slow review of the relevant confessional portions I identified above as well as the attached proof texts (which you can get online at the link I gave). Nothing has contributed to my understanding of the scriptures more than these very precise guidelines.


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## Puritanhead (Aug 6, 2005)

I wouldn't say man's problem is the lack of a _free will_ per say, but rather that he is in bondage to his will, and that will is to sin. Something about being "dead in sins and trespasses" seems to nullify the salvific powers that Arminians ascribe to "free will!" 

That's why I sing "Amazing Grace" and not "Amazing Free Will!"


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