# Disregard for the Lord's name in the workplace



## Irenaeus (Jun 18, 2021)

What advice would you all give for dealing with misuse of the Lord's name in the workplace?

Some context: I started a new job a month ago. Prior to that, I worked from home for a year, and for several years prior I worked primarily with other believers. It's not as if I've never heard the Lord's name taken in vain before, but I am now much more sensitive to it and find it particularly troublesome. One co-worker in particular (a long-standing and senior member of the company, For what it's worth) is exceedingly vulgar and uses quite strong language involving the divine name. I can live with the profanity and the sexually crude utterances - it just speaks poorly of him. But I do not wish to hear my Lord's name blasphemed.


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## Taylor (Jun 18, 2021)

Well, the first thing to do would be to ask him kindly not to use such language around you. That is an entirely reasonable request. If he refuses, then there's not much else you can do other than pray for and witness to him (which should be being done, anyway). I believe blasphemy against the Lord should be punishable by law, but our sad nation only cares about blaspheming the state, black people, and sodomites.

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## Contra_Mundum (Jun 18, 2021)

While it might be hopeful, that a simple, humble request for a healthy work-environment (one free of audible toxins to the soul) within the power of a supervisor to grant, should be granted; one must also be prepared not only to not-have that request considered; but further, to bear with reprisals for such daring petition. Pray, and ask, and pray still more for a blessed response; and if God is gracious, remember to thank him for the change.

This is not an age of tolerance--I mean, not an age when Christian opinion is tolerated, given its adherence to an objective moral standard that coheres with moral sentiments across the ages. There have been times (in living memory) when such was the general respect for Christian morality, it was generally regarded even by unbelievers as a high if not the highest expression of objective natural moral order. One might then have appealed even to an unbeliever's sense of gentlemanly decorum.

We do not live now in so generous or reasonable an age (perhaps it will come around again). It seems frankly unreasonable to expect a non-Christian to act (or speak) like a Christian. Is it not far more reasonable to expect a rebel against the Source of moral order in the universe to move or drift in the direction of immoral thoughts, words, and deeds?

Today, in addition to moral disorder we observe becoming increasingly common the unwillingness to conform to the fixity of nature's physical, chemical, and biological constraints. For an age that pays such strong lip-service to "science," as a way of striking out against its supposed contrary: religion or faith, we are seeing with our own eyes repudiation of rudimentary observation as reliable tool for determining the limits of possibility, given determination caused by the abstract laws of nature. Heathen abandonment of every form of external order leads inexorably to re-enslavement of broad swathes of humanity (which manage to survive civilization's collapse) under the cruel dominion of superstition. Secular priests are already catechizing the masses to think they cannot trust their own faculties of judgment, but must submit them to the knowledge of "experts."

If those with and for whom we labor are increasingly at odds with natural order, how much further gone (dead) are their higher-level moral sensibilities? Their conscience seared as with a hot iron, their primary impulse is to blaspheme. There is no God, and they hate him. They are schizophrenic in that way. Moreover, the notoriety of so many prominent Christian pretenders from this decadent era has made pagan blasphemy seem tame by comparison to the church's harlotry. Why should secularists add common Christian moral hypocrisy to their own rap sheet?

I'm simply agreeing that asking for some peace is both reasonable, even possibly a means of convicting the perpetrator's conscience by the mercy of God; and that voicing the same request is also an implicit acceptance of the persecution that could come from it. That possibility is far from unreasonable in today's climate of rage against Christianity's unswerving commitments. Let Christians first establish their moral credentials once again, including their willingness to suffer for doing the right thing, before trying to shame the godless for not caring enough about our godly sense of propriety.

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## hLuke (Jun 18, 2021)

Brother, 

you can meditate on James 2.1-13. This should help.

I was also a part of such a workplace. The blasphemy became so relentless that I quit the job: it was at a Roman Catholic organisation, and just about every staff member blasphemed. 

Rom 8.37-39

God be with you,

Hayden

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## Edward (Jun 18, 2021)

Whatever route you take, the first step is to look for a new job. Since you've only been there a month, your search should still be warm. Because tangling with an established, senior person isn't going to turn out well for you there. Whether you leave a gap on your resume or explain that the culture wasn't a good fit for you when you interview elsewhere - probably 6 of one, half dozen of the other - "the work was great, but the company culture wasn't a good fit for me and I'm looking for an opportunity where workplace distractions won't interfere with me getting the job done." 

If it's a big enough company, you could try the HR route, but you should have your exit strategy well underway when you pull that trigger. Smaller company, keep your head down, and just look for a place to land. Share your witness in your exit interview. I wouldn't expect much sympathy from the Biden EEOC for a white Christian male.

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## Irenaeus (Jun 18, 2021)

Contra_Mundum said:


> While it might be hopeful, that a simple, humble request for a healthy work-environment (one free of audible toxins to the soul) within the power of a supervisor to grant, should be granted; one must also be prepared not only to not-have that request considered; but further, to bear with reprisals for such daring petition. Pray, and ask, and pray still more for a blessed response; and if God is gracious, remember to thank him for the change.
> 
> This is not an age of tolerance--I mean, not an age when Christian opinion is tolerated, given its adherence to an objective moral standard that coheres with moral sentiments across the ages. There have been times (in living memory) when such was the general respect for Christian morality, it was generally regarded even by unbelievers as a high if not the highest expression of objective natural moral order. One might then have appealed even to an unbeliever's sense of gentlemanly decorum.
> 
> ...



I gather from this that you think it's permissible to speak up about it; but also that you think that Christianity has brought discredit upon itself and that the church should set its own house in order before speaking to the world's sins. How do I handle that tension in deciding on a course of action?


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## Irenaeus (Jun 18, 2021)

Edward said:


> Whatever route you take, the first step is to look for a new job. Since you've only been there a month, your search should still be warm. Because tangling with an established, senior person isn't going to turn out well for you there. Whether you leave a gap on your resume or explain that the culture wasn't a good fit for you when you interview elsewhere - probably 6 of one, half dozen of the other - "the work was great, but the company culture wasn't a good fit for me and I'm looking for an opportunity where workplace distractions won't interfere with me getting the job done."
> 
> If it's a big enough company, you could try the HR route, but you should have your exit strategy well underway when you pull that trigger. Smaller company, keep your head down, and just look for a place to land. Share your witness in your exit interview. I wouldn't expect much sympathy from the Biden EEOC for a white Christian male.



Without giving too much detail, I should add some context: I was recommended for the job by a fellow church member who did some consulting work for the company, and was accepted without any prior background in the field that this job places me in. We've had some rough circumstances, employment-wise, and are VERY grateful for what we feel was a real God-send. It is a step up from my last job in almost every conceivable way. I would not hesitate to walk out the door and shake the dust from my feet if asked to betray my faith; but it behooves me to exercise some prudence, because if something happens to this job I will be in a very difficult situation with limited prospects and a gaggle of mouths to feed. It's not the first time I've endured the Lord's name being taken in vain in the workplace; but since I'm now working on-site, with regular contact with a fixed set of co-workers, I hear it regularly from the same people, meaning that my conscience can more feasibly raise the issue of whether or not to say something. At my previous job, I winced, but once finished with a client I would likely never speak to them again. (The one person in question is not my supervisor or over me in any way but is of course a more senior member in the company. (It's a small company... ~30 employees max.)


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## dhh712 (Jun 18, 2021)

JP, I have a similar situation at my workplace. Many, if not all, of my co-workers take the Lord's name in vain; generally, it is using his name as a curse word. I have not to my recollection ever heard them mix anything vulgar with His holy name (like saying "JFC"). The way I see it, if they were a Bible-believing Christian I would hopefully get up the courage (because I have an avoidant personality) to take them aside and talk with them about this sin. Yet these are people who do not know the Lord (a couple of the ones I work with are professed atheists). Practically everything about these people jars me, for their lives are not centered on Jesus; being around them is generally somewhat aggravating though of course blatant sins like voicing my Saviour's precious name as a curse word is particularly jarring. That is why when I go to church surrounded by my brothers and sisters in Jesus who love the Lord as I do--I don't ever want to leave and have to go back to being around worldly people. 

I would just strive to be a testimony to Jesus where you work. If there ever arises an opportunity, share with your atheist co-workers about the hope that is within you. It is not easy, for demonic forces attack us relentlessly to tear apart our testimonies and we fall way too easily on our own strength. But that is mainly what I would counter your co-worker's actions with is to strive to be a model Christian to them and show them the power that Jesus has to change hearts and lives.

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## Irenaeus (Jun 18, 2021)

dhh712 said:


> JP, I have a similar situation at my workplace. Many, if not all, of my co-workers take the Lord's name in vain; generally, it is using his name as a curse word. I have not to my recollection ever heard them mix anything vulgar with His holy name (like saying "JFC"). The way I see it, if they were a Bible-believing Christian I would hopefully get up the courage (because I have an avoidant personality) to take them aside and talk with them about this sin. Yet these are people who do not know the Lord (a couple of the ones I work with are professed atheists). Practically everything about these people jars me, for their lives are not centered on Jesus; being around them is generally somewhat aggravating though of course blatant sins like voicing my Saviour's precious name as a curse word is particularly jarring. That is why when I go to church surrounded by my brothers and sisters in Jesus who love the Lord as I do--I don't ever want to leave and have to go back to being around worldly people.
> 
> I would just strive to be a testimony to Jesus where you work. If there ever arises an opportunity, share with your atheist co-workers about the hope that is within you. It is not easy, for demonic forces attack us relentlessly to tear apart our testimonies and we fall way too easily on our own strength. But that is mainly what I would counter your co-worker's actions with is to strive to be a model Christian to them and show them the power that Jesus has to change hearts and lives.


My sister gave somewhat similar advice; she said to choose my battles wisely, and that people would notice the absence of vulgarity and blasphemy in my speech. Lord grant me grace that my speech does indeed continue to be cleansed of all such things!


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Jun 18, 2021)

I know this is not desirable at all, but from my experience this is normal. Apart from working in a church, I would expect this to happen anywhere. Along with the 3rd Commandment being broken regularly, I would be surprised if the other nine aren't being trampled upon too. If I were to leave a job over my coworkers sinning, there would be nowhere else to go because the world is going to behave like the world no matter where I am. At my job, I probably hear blasphemy more than 20 times a day, along with profanity and all sorts of crude joking. That's just par for the course. 

You may find a better situation, but most of the time the grass isn't any greener on the other side. You are in the world but not of the world. You are where you are to be a light and help point people to the better things in life. More can be said of this, but I suppose this will suffice from me for now. Blessings!

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## VictorBravo (Jun 18, 2021)

A lot of good advice has been given. I have a few thoughts based on my experiences.

First of all, I have never "needed" a job so that I would willingly put up with abusive language, particularly taking our God's name in vain. But how to deal with varies depending on position, relative status, etc.

One approach I've used with coworkers is simply asking at the right moment, "what's with the blasphemy?" Followed by, depending on context:

"I thought mocking someone's faith was contrary to the general spirit of the age" (which is extreme irony, of course);
"it is not conducive to motivation";
"not everyone thinks it is helpful...." (I used this phrase in a deposition among other lawyers who didn't know me and who were mocking Christians. They shut up quickly and got back to business).
Etc.

The important thing, I think, is *not* to make yourself the victim or coming across as sensitive. You want to encourage team playing.

But, of course, you should always have plan B because things can go south in a hurry.

I'm in a different sort of position now, though. Until recently, my work was as a self-employed lawyer with a reputation. I am apt to let things slide with a client, but I find that even the most hardened career criminal will apologize for taking God's name in vain. I am known as one not to put up with the God of Israel being mocked among other players in the judicial system.

One young prosecutor was ranting in the clerk's office about people believing in God. I spoke up with a level and steady voice, "A fool said in his heart, 'there is no God', yet you say this openly. It is unbecoming of a minister of justice to blaspheme."

Everyone was deadpan except the judge, who smiled and nodded his head. As far as I know, he was not a believer, either.

The prosecutor found a different job a few months later. I pray he is convicted at some point.

One final approach I've used with someone who targeted me on this issue: "at the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow. Either now, or later. That is what will happen, whether you believe it or not." To the glory of God, he refrained from such blasphemies in my presence. He hated me for a while, but later we ended up working well together.

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## Alan D. Strange (Jun 18, 2021)

VictorBravo said:


> The important thing, I think, is *not* to make yourself the victim or coming across as sensitive. You want to encourage team playing.


I think that this is precisely right. We don't wish to communicate that we are the principal injured party, or victim, in blasphemy: they besmirch the Holy One of Israel, the Triune God of the Bible. This isn't about hurting me because I am quite sensitive to foul language. No, the sorts of things Vic encourages one to say are the sorts of things that one should say if it is thought to be wise in the circumstances to say anything.

Peace,
Alan

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## Ed Walsh (Jun 19, 2021)

Alan D. Strange said:


> I think that this is precisely right. We don't wish to communicate that we are the principal injured party, or victim, in blasphemy: they besmirch the Holy One of Israel, the Triune God of the Bible



This is exactly right. Thanks!

Not trying to make anyone jealous, but just maybe something in my experience may be adapted to help you.

I own my own business, and I've had up to eight employees working at a time. I don't make a big deal about my Christianity, but I always let prospective employees know that I am one. I say things like, "I am a Christian, but do not consider this a Christian business. I am a Christian who owns a business. I will never lie to you, and don't you ever lie to me. I won't be preaching to you every day, I promise, but from time to time, I may mention it and invite you to ask me more about it if you ever are so inclined."

It seems to be pretty much all I need to say. The rest is my example and my demeanor as I work with my team. (By the way, only one of my employees is a professing Christian). In the last 20 years, I probably had 20 different people working for me at different times. Still, I am relatively sure that my recollection is accurate when I say that I have never heard anyone take the Lord's name in vain in any sense. They seem to pick up naturally that not even a "God bless you" when somebody sneezes is in order.

And then there's what I call my "uniforms." We have a casual climate, so wearing a t-shirt is acceptable. Among the many I have, one says YHWH in bold letters; another one has the answer to the Westminster Shorter Catechism question One, another one says "I Am That I Am," and there's one that you just can't mistake that says in bold letters, white on black, "Jesus IS LORD." I think my favorite one, because it has been a good conversation starter, has Romans 1:16 in _koine_ Greek, "for I am not ashamed of the Gospel." Once as I entered a Greek diner, one of the owners walked over to me and slowly began to read the text, translating it she goes. Oh, she says, then adding another oh, a little softer, a religious message. She just walked away and we never did discuss it. But it made me smile ear-to-ear.

Everyone seems to get it pretty quick. 

EDIT: if all else fails maybe a poster with the following Passage from Leviticus would be in order.

Leviticus 24:13‭-‬16 ESV​Now an Israelite woman’s son, whose father was an Egyptian, went out among the people of Israel. And the Israelite woman’s son and a man of Israel fought in the camp, and the Israelite woman’s son blasphemed the Name, and cursed. Then they brought him to Moses. His mother’s name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan. And they put him in custody, till the will of the Lord should be clear to them. Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Bring out of the camp the one who cursed, and let all who heard him lay their hands on his head, and let all the congregation stone him. And speak to the people of Israel, saying, Whoever curses his God shall bear his sin. Whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death.​


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## B.L. (Jun 19, 2021)

Irenaeus said:


> What advice would you all give for dealing with misuse of the Lord's name in the workplace?
> 
> Some context: I started a new job a month ago. Prior to that, I worked from home for a year, and for several years prior I worked primarily with other believers. It's not as if I've never heard the Lord's name taken in vain before, but I am now much more sensitive to it and find it particularly troublesome. One co-worker in particular (a long-standing and senior member of the company, For what it's worth) is exceedingly vulgar and uses quite strong language involving the divine name. I can live with the profanity and the sexually crude utterances - it just speaks poorly of him. But I do not wish to hear my Lord's name blasphemed.



Take Anne's advice - specifically the second paragraph - in post #8.

I, like you and others, encounter this behavior in the workplace as well. In addition to blasphemers, I also work alongside adulterers, drunkards, liars, cheats, etc., etc., etc.,...and likely so do you. While hearing the Lord's name taken in vain is certainly bothersome, is it really that surprising when we're living in a culture that is morally and ethically bankrupt? Take a step back and look at the state of things in this country. Look at our schools, look at our corporations, look at the entertainment industry, look at our government officials...just about everywhere you cast your eye you're going to see what the rejection of the law-word of God brings.

A timely example -- just yesterday my supervisor informed me that a colleague of mine was fired for massive timecard fraud. The fraud was brought to light when a divorced woman this married man was having an adulterous affair with got upset that he wouldn't leave his wife and kids for her and so she blew the whistle on his timecard fraud to get even with him. My supervisor laughed it all off while dropping 'f bombs' and talking about this guy like he was his hero. Apparently this married man was a serial adulterer whose exploits were known by many. It seems this guy slept with many women in the office, both single and married, and that he paid for the abortion of one whom he got pregnant. My supervisor, a divorcee cohabiting with a divorced woman himself who regularly takes the Lord's name in vain and celebrates all sorts of sin, told this story to me as if the fired employee was a sucker for getting caught. This happened yesterday...I've been in this office for five years and have heard all sorts of wild stories of sin and debauchery.

I wouldn't look for another job at this point. Focus on being salt and light in the workplace and let your coworkers see your example. When you observe conduct that is offensive to you (and more importantly offensive to God) be sure to pray for these people. You don't need to get on your knees and bury your head in your hands right then and there...offer up a silent prayer or go somewhere quiet when the opportunity permits.

As the cultural downward spiral continues you need to prepare yourself for the sad fact that you'll encounter more and more sinful behavior that both upsets you and breaks your heart for these people.

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## rookie (Jun 19, 2021)

I work at a heavy truck dealership...where I am the evening service advisor. Our industry is riddled with this language. Currently, I have seniority over about 7 guys here. Which in this work climate (Covid, vaccines, and all) I thank God daily for His mercies.

Mechanics, for the most part, have no shame in profanity. They all know I'm a Christian, and I have even indirectly witnessed to my direct supervisor (evening shop foreman).

While I'm not a fan of the language, being nearly 45 yrs old, and have always worked for private companies, there was only 2 jobs I held, where people were professional, and held their tongue. Both of them, we were in sales.

I pray often on this, and I appreciate immensely 2 brokers that often drop off their trucks, whom are also believers (one of them leads a men's breakfast every Friday morning, which I thoroughly enjoy) because their conversations are so different.

With the lack of job availability in my area, and having about 2.5 yrs in my job, and seniority over 7 folks, should something go wrong and lay offs happen, I have a chance at still providing for my family.

I will admit, there are evenings that are easier than others. But since they all know I'm a believer, I do notice they have their profanity turned down a notch when they are around me. When I go for my walk in the shop...and there are a couple talking, their language is much worse. So I appreciate that.

That being said, we have to realize and understand, that the world wants nothing to do with God, nor his ways. So, while very uncomfortable, we are in the world. and unless you are blessed to work in a company that has Christians, the language is unfortunately a part of the culture.

On thing that has helped me as of late, is my more than ever consistent reading in my bible. I'm still not as consistent as I would like, but I am more than I have been in years.


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## Ed Walsh (Jun 19, 2021)

B.L. said:


> As the cultural downward spiral continues you need to prepare yourself for the sad fact that you'll encounter more and more sinful behavior that both upsets you and breaks your heart for these people.


Good post!

1 Corinthians 5:9-13
I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”


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## ZackF (Jun 19, 2021)

This thread has some helpful posts related to the topic. https://puritanboard.com/threads/inclusivity-in-the-workplace.98593/


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## Jerusalem Blade (Jun 19, 2021)

I have a few stories about witnessing amidst profane groups, but for the moment here's this:

Jesus said, "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved" (John 3:17), and also, "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost" (Luke 19:10).

I don't think having a censorious and condemning attitude when among God's enemies —those en route to eternal perdition — is conducive to touching souls with the Gospel of God's grace in Christ. If Jesus were to be walking among them, they might well be intrigued and interested in this godly, no-nonsense but friendly Man who emitted a "fragrance" of the holy Heaven, who walked with the bearing of Heaven's royalty.

When I worked in an institution for the developmentally disabled it was noted that on my breaks I'd be reading from a little NT with Psalms and Proverbs (the Gideon type) I'd have in my pocket, and other staff would comment or otherwise express interest. I was known to be a Christian.

There will be occasions (especially if we pray and ask the Lord for them) when we can give a reason for the hope and quiet gladness that is in us. The Lord has us in places where we may be able to call the elect out of the darkness they walk in.

Once I told a supervisor — a young woman with whom I worked before she got promoted — that it bothered me when she would use Jesus' name as a curse, as I loved Him, and He was my Saviour, and how would she feel if every time I would curse (not that I did) I'd use her boyfriend's name? She graciously obliged me.

When on a work gang of landscapers, and the guys would be regularly using the Lord's name in vain, I said, "The way I hear the Lord's name being spoken so often you'd think I were in a prayer meeting if I didn't know better. How about this: every time I hear a curse, I can bless? (meaning I'd talk about Him). The foreman (a gay man), said, "Rafalsky, you can talk, just don't stop shoveling." Sometimes a sense of humor is a good thing. And I was friendly with the guys — I liked them.

Getting to know the men (or women), and seeking to be a man of kindness, respect, and friendliness, builds up a lot of "social capital" in our relationships. Also, refusing to do immoral or illegal things — or badmouthing people — also contributes to our character in the estimation of others.

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## JimmyH (Jun 19, 2021)

In my 20's, 50 years or so ago, I was an unbeliever and doing structural steel erection ... putting up buildings. Back then we'd often work in two man teams setting iron, bolting it up. I was working with a fellow who was a Pentecostal minister and I frequently used the Lord's name in vain. 

So he said to me "Call someone you know." I said 'What ?' He said if you're calling on the name of Jesus and you don't know Him it is of little use. If you need something call someone you know. So he went on to explain that it was hurtful to him to hear the Lord's name used in a blasphemous manner.

In spite of being a heathen I was sensitive to his discomfort, made an effort to stop using the expletive in his presence, and through that eventually stopped the practice entirely.

Some years later, now as a believer, on another ironwork job, I was working with a guy from Colorado who used the Lord's name as an exclamation. So I said ... "Call someone you know." He said, 'What?' .... I explained myself as my aforementioned Pentecostal friend had to me years before and the fellow got out of the habit, at least in my presence.

I've used that 'call someone you know' on many people, many occasions, and it doesn't always bear fruit, but it opens the door for conversation and explanation.

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## Pergamum (Jun 19, 2021)

People that become the moral policemen of others can be very irritating. Try not to be irritating.

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## rareeves72 (Jun 19, 2021)

Irenaeus said:


> What advice would you all give for dealing with misuse of the Lord's name in the workplace?
> 
> Some context: I started a new job a month ago. Prior to that, I worked from home for a year, and for several years prior I worked primarily with other believers. It's not as if I've never heard the Lord's name taken in vain before, but I am now much more sensitive to it and find it particularly troublesome. One co-worker in particular (a long-standing and senior member of the company, For what it's worth) is exceedingly vulgar and uses quite strong language involving the divine name. I can live with the profanity and the sexually crude utterances - it just speaks poorly of him. But I do not wish to hear my Lord's name blasphemed.





Irenaeus said:


> What advice would you all give for dealing with misuse of the Lord's name in the workplace?
> 
> Some context: I started a new job a month ago. Prior to that, I worked from home for a year, and for several years prior I worked primarily with other believers. It's not as if I've never heard the Lord's name taken in vain before, but I am now much more sensitive to it and find it particularly troublesome. One co-worker in particular (a long-standing and senior member of the company, For what it's worth) is exceedingly vulgar and uses quite strong language involving the divine name. I can live with the profanity and the sexually crude utterances - it just speaks poorly of him. But I do not wish to hear my Lord's name blasphemed.


I believe saying something will only add more trouble to you. We cannot expect the lost to fall in line with the Word of God or God for that matter. I believe praying is key here. Why is he in your life now? Why is God subjecting you to such conflict? Why is God allowing this? These are questions are meant not to question God, (let God be true and every man be a liar), but to question you in the sense that this ungodly person is not changing by what you desire him to do, but God can change him. 
Let him see your conduct let him see your witness. Don’t hammer the gospel home to him, but pray that God gives an opportunity to befriend him and opportunity to speak the gospel to him. Hope this helps.


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## Ed Walsh (Jun 19, 2021)

rareeves72 said:


> I believe saying something will only add more trouble to you. We cannot expect the lost to fall in line with the Word of God or God for that matter. I believe praying is key here. Why is he in your life now? Why is God subjecting you to such conflict? Why is God allowing this? These are questions are meant not to question God, (let God be true and every man be a liar), but to question you in the sense that this ungodly person is not changing by what you desire him to do, but God can change him.
> Let him see your conduct let him see your witness. Don’t hammer the gospel home to him, but pray that God gives an opportunity to befriend him and opportunity to speak the gospel to him. Hope this helps.



Do you think I am wrong for not permitting foul language of any type in my workforce?

Consider what you are saying. "We cannot expect the lost to fall in line with the Word of God or God for that matter. I believe praying is key here." I certainly agree with you on the praying part, but to absolutize the first sentence is at odds with Scripture. Jesus taught the exact opposite in the Law He gave to the OT Israelites. The two-standard hypothesis is incorrect. Both in loving and in judging the oft-repeated principle is:

This is true in our love for our neighbor:
Leviticus 19:34​You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.​
Numbers 15:29​You shall have one law for him who does anything unintentionally, for him who is native among the people of Israel _and_ for the stranger who sojourns among them.​
This was equally true for the stranger that did not dwell among the Israelites.

Here's the concept fleshed out in a bit more detail. God had one standard for the Israelites and the nations that surrounded Israel. Does not God command all men to repent? (Acts 17:30)

Leviticus 18:22-28​You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. “Do not make yourselves unclean by any of these things, for by all these the nations I am driving out before you have become unclean, and the land became unclean, so that I punished its iniquity, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. But you shall keep my statutes and my rules and do none of these abominations, either the native or the stranger who sojourns among you (for the people of the land, who were before you, did all of these abominations, so that the land became unclean), lest the land vomit you out when you make it unclean, as it vomited out the nation that was before you. And you shall not lie with any animal and so make yourself unclean with it, neither shall any woman give herself to an animal to lie with it: it is perversion.​

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## rareeves72 (Jun 19, 2021)

rareeves72 said:


> I believe saying something will only add more trouble to you. We cannot expect the lost to fall in line with the Word of God or God for that matter. I believe praying is key here. Why is he in your life now? Why is God subjecting you to such conflict? Why is God allowing this? These are questions are meant not to question God, (let God be true and every man be a liar), but to question you in the sense that this ungodly person is not changing by what you desire him to do, but God can change him.
> Let him see your conduct let him see your witness. Don’t hammer the gospel home to him, but pray that God gives an opportunity to befriend him and opportunity to speak the gospel to him. Hope this helps.


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Jun 19, 2021)

Ed Walsh said:


> Do you think I am wrong for not permitting foul language of any type in my workforce?
> 
> Consider what you are saying. "We cannot expect the lost to fall in line with the Word of God or God for that matter. I believe praying is key here." I certainly agree with you on the praying part, but to absolutize the first sentence is at odds with Scripture. Jesus taught the exact opposite in the Law He gave to the OT Israelites. The two-standard hypothesis is incorrect. Both in loving and in judging the oft-repeated principle is:
> 
> ...


I love the thought, and I agree this is how it should be, but the concept goes way against our typical systematic theology. 

Systematics would teach that we are depraved, that we cannot change until God changes us. That we cannot reform ourselves apart from the Spirit giving us life. We could not expect a bad tree to bear good fruit. 

I personally observe that non Christians are capable of doing plenty of good and loving things so long as they will to, but I know that goes against what I generally hear preached. So I guess it's confusing to me.


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## Taylor (Jun 19, 2021)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> …the concept goes way against our typical systematic theology.
> 
> Systematics would teach that we are depraved, that we cannot change until God changes us. That we cannot reform ourselves apart from the Spirit giving us life. We could not expect a bad tree to bear good fruit.


Using this line of logic, we should simply shrug off _every_ evil in the workplace—cursing, blasphemy, theft, sexual assault—because “we cannot expect a bad tree to bear good fruit.”


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## Taylor (Jun 19, 2021)

Pergamum said:


> People that become the moral policemen of others can be very irritating. Try not to be irritating.


I hope you don’t take this approach with things like rape and murder, because blasphemy is worse than both. If we think asking someone to stop blaspheming is being a “moral policeman,” perhaps we don’t think highly enough of God’s names, nature, attributes, ordinances, Word, and works.

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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Jun 19, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Using this line of logic, we should simply shrug off _every_ evil in the workplace—cursing, blasphemy, theft, sexual assault—because “we cannot expect a bad tree to bear good fruit.”


I agree with what you're saying, and see the inconsistency. So theologically then, people who aren't born again are just as capable of obedience to God's law than those who have the Spirit?


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## Taylor (Jun 19, 2021)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> I agree with what you're saying, and see the inconsistency. So theologically then, people who aren't born again are just as capable of obedience to God's law than those who have the Spirit?


No, because their heart is far from him. Yet there is a such thing as aggravation of sin—things that make sin worse. Blasphemy is bad enough; blasphemy by an unbeliever is worse. Asking them to refrain from blasphemy is not asking them to be believers necessarily, but asking them not to aggravate their sin.

Besides, that an unbeliever cannot obey God does not mean he is not required to.


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## PaulCLawton (Jun 19, 2021)

Irenaeus said:


> What advice would you all give for dealing with misuse of the Lord's name in the workplace?
> 
> Some context: I started a new job a month ago. Prior to that, I worked from home for a year, and for several years prior I worked primarily with other believers. It's not as if I've never heard the Lord's name taken in vain before, but I am now much more sensitive to it and find it particularly troublesome. One co-worker in particular (a long-standing and senior member of the company, For what it's worth) is exceedingly vulgar and uses quite strong language involving the divine name. I can live with the profanity and the sexually crude utterances - it just speaks poorly of him. But I do not wish to hear my Lord's name blasphemed.


I am often convicted by the words of Heidelberg Catechism A 99, “That we neither blaspheme nor misuse the name of God by cursing, perjury, or unnecessary oaths, *nor share in such horrible sins by being silent bystanders*.” As a side note, it is curious that neither the WSC nor WLC include such a clause.


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## Pergamum (Jun 19, 2021)

Taylor said:


> I hope you don’t take this approach with things like rape and murder, because blasphemy is worse than both. If we think asking someone to stop blaspheming is being a “moral policemen,” perhaps we don’t think highly enough of God’s names, nature, attributes, ordinances, Word, and works.


Perhaps I don't want to be a harping busybody with strangers. The fact that you equate bad words with rape and murder shows me you have no sense of proportionality. 

Go ahead and try to correct everyone in any given day you morally disagree with and see where that gets you.


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## VictorBravo (Jun 19, 2021)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> I love the thought, and I agree this is how it should be, but the concept goes way against our typical systematic theology.


Does your systematic theology not include discussion on being salt and not covering lamps? If not, something profound is missing.


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## Taylor (Jun 19, 2021)

Pergamum said:


> Perhaps I don't want to be a harping busybody with strangers. The fact that you equate bad words with rape and murder shows me you have no sense of proportionality.


I'm talking about blasphemy, not "bad words." This thread is specifically about breaking the third commandment, which is a most heinous sin. Blaspheming the holy God of heaven is worse than anything we could ever do to another man. This fact only shocks us insofar as we are fundamentally humanistic in the worst sense.



Pergamum said:


> Go ahead and try to correct everyone in any given day you morally disagree with and see where that gets you.


This is a straw man. I never said we should try to correct everyone on every given point of error. Again, this thread is about blasphemy against God, not just any old sin. Furthermore, my personal disagreement with anyone is irrelevant. What matters is what the Lord thinks and commands.


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Jun 19, 2021)

VictorBravo said:


> Does your systematic theology not include discussion on being salt and not covering lamps? If not, something profound is missing.


My thought was in reference to the non Christian being able to obey God's law. Is this what you mean?


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## Pergamum (Jun 19, 2021)

Taylor said:


> I'm talking about blasphemy, not "bad words." This thread is specifically about breaking the third commandment, which is a most heinous sin. Blaspheming the holy God of heaven is worse than anything we could ever do to another man. This fact only shocks us insofar as we are fundamentally humanistic in the worst sense.
> 
> 
> Straw man.


Please....I heard a rigid reformed fellow get onto a little kid for saying, "Oh my" and calling it blasphemy. "Oh my" was all the kid said. It made the rebuker look like an insufferable jerk and left the kid confused and the parents ticked off. He rebuked another lady for saying Yikes Louise, because he said Yikes was short for Jesus. 

There is a virtue in shutting your mouth and minding your own business, especially when you are working for somebody else. 

The other employees are not yours to command, so know your place.


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## VictorBravo (Jun 19, 2021)

Pergamum said:


> Go ahead and try to correct everyone in any given day you morally disagree with and see where that gets you.


I agree that "moral policeman" can spoil their witness, but I've found that a little salt and humor at the right moment defuses annoyance. I've even had others come up to me thanking for speaking a word in season to remove the discomfort from chronic blasphemy.

On the other hand, I have no problem hanging out with sailors or cowboys--done it all my life. But one friend fell into using the "F-Bomb" in every sentence. I told him that it had become the "F-dud" because it lost its impact through overuse.

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## Taylor (Jun 19, 2021)

Pergamum said:


> Please....I heard a rigid reformed fellow get onto a little kid for saying, "Oh my" and calling it blasphemy. Oh my was all the kid said. It made the rebuker look like an insufferable jerk and left the kid confused and the parents ticked off.


I have no idea what this weird anecdote has to do with me, or anyone here, or this thread.



Pergamum said:


> The other employees are not yours to command, so know your place.


You are right. They are God's to command. And he has commanded them not to take his name in vain. It is their duty as his creation to obey him. Even so, if you noticed, the advice I gave in my first post was not even as strong as "command them to repent and obey." I merely said he should ask them kindly to stop for his own conscience' sake.


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## Pergamum (Jun 19, 2021)

VictorBravo said:


> I agree that "moral policeman" can spoil their witness, but I've found that a little salt and humor at the right moment defuses annoyance. I've even had others come up to me thanking for speaking a word in season to remove the discomfort from chronic blasphemy.
> 
> On the other hand, I have no problem hanging out with sailors or cowboys--done it all my life. But one friend fell into using the "F-Bomb" in every sentence. I told him that it had become the "F-dud" because it lost its impact through overuse.


Yes, agree.


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## VictorBravo (Jun 19, 2021)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> My thought was in reference to the non Christian being able to obey God's law. Is this what you mean?


Non Christians can be shown what God's law requires. And, through simple observation, we know that people have some degree of self control.

As a judge once said to a chronic girl-friend abuser who said he just lost it:

"But you do have self control. There is only one person you 'just lost it' with. For some reason you don't 'just lose it' with me."

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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Jun 19, 2021)

VictorBravo said:


> Non Christians can be shown what God's law requires. And, through simple observation, we know that people have some degree of self control.
> 
> As a judge once said to a chronic girl-friend abuser who said he just lost it:
> 
> "But you do have self control. There is only one person you 'just lost it' with. For some reason you don't 'just lose it' with me."


Thanks! My experience is that non Christians are just as capable of outwardly obeying God's commands as Christians are. This is seen in people practicing other religions primarily.

But this seems to contradict a lot of preaching I've heard on the matter. A pastor will say something like "apart from the Gospel we have no power over sin." I get it in theory, but not practically. For example, there are a lot of AA success stories of people overcoming alcohol addiction.


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## Smeagol (Jun 19, 2021)

@Irenaeus

Be tactful, wise, and discerning in your work environment. Your role in the work provided is not that of a Superior (your not the boss) and it seems like it is a secular job. So reflect Christ in your own work and words and do the specific task assigned to you as unto the Lord. BUT also be very watchful for opportunities to have private conversations with others and as Victor has noted, with some thought you can find very clever and loving ways to stand up for misusing the Lord’s name (and other sinful comments/ideologies) while also avoiding screaming/spitting fire and brimstone every time someone says the name of our Lord in vein at work. You will miss incredible opportunities to love God and neighbor by always being silent, but you can also lose those same opportunities by failing to exercise restraint and holding the tongue in certain scenarios. When you find yourself getting angry at loose words, make sure to balance this by looking past the words and into the non-Christian’s heart. They need the gospel, they need reconciliation, and they do need to hear the truth in love. I think their you will be given the tools to be humble and wise in how you decide to speak or not speak in a given circumstance.

P.S. I have found people are more likely to listen if you don’t always address immediately, but invite them to lunch or a cup of coffee to discuss the matter humbly. Victor’s job might be the exception as ones likely has to be more lethal when dealing with Judges & slime.....oops ummm uhhh...I mean respectable attorneys


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## Taylor (Jun 19, 2021)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> Thanks! My experience is that non Christians are just as capable of outwardly obeying God's commands as Christians are. This is seen in people practicing other religions primarily.
> 
> But this seems to contradict a lot of preaching I've heard on the matter. A pastor will say something like "apart from the Gospel we have no power over sin." I get it in theory, but not practically. For example, there are a lot of AA success stories of people overcoming alcohol addiction.


This is confusing categories and language. The WCF speaks more clearly:

Works done by unregenerate men, although for the matter of them they may be things which God commands, and of good use both to themselves and others; yet because they proceed not from a heart purified by faith, nor are done in a right manner, according to the Word, nor to a right end, the glory of God; they are therefore sinful, and cannot please God, or make a man meet to receive grace from God. And yet their neglect of them is more sinful and displeasing unto God (WCF 16.7).​

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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Jun 19, 2021)

Taylor said:


> This is confusing categories and language. The WCF speaks more clearly:
> 
> Works done by unregenerate men, although for the matter of them they may be things which God commands, and of good use both to themselves and others; yet because they proceed not from a heart purified by faith, nor are done in a right manner, according to the Word, nor to a right end, the glory of God; they are therefore sinful, and cannot please God, or make a man meet to receive grace from God. And yet their neglect of them is more sinful and displeasing unto God (WCF 16.7).​


Yeah for sure. That's what I've observed: non Christians can overcome sin and be very obedient and good people outwardly, but if it is not done with love for God then it is not acceptable to Him. So I think people can very much be held accountable to moral rules, because they have the ability to obey them regardless of what belief system they have.


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## Smeagol (Jun 19, 2021)

@Taylor

I think we also need to have some balance regarding the historical context of the 3rd commandment. I was recently reminded of this by Douma’s work on the 10 Commandments. Misuse of the Lord’s name is certainly very present today and extremely vile. However, I think in OT times this was more pointy directed at those who would literally curse the name, works, and or words of God in a direct manner. Today’s flippant use, in various reactive comments, of the Lord’s name tend to be less a direct intentional cursing of God and more of a sinfully lazy and disrespectful use (both still 3CVs).

I hope that makes some sense. I say none of this to disagree with you, but rather to express that sin has degrees so I think the office worker that text “OM...” is still guilty of sin, but NOT to the degree the Pharisees were when they cursed Christ. So it’s could be argued that a thoughtless irreverent misuse of God’s name (compared to a more direct intentional blasphemy) is in fact NOT as egregious as a literal Rape or Abortion. Why? Well any command broken in the 2nd table can be traced back to a direct violation of the 1st table (And really vice versa). When we sin against our neighbor, especially those bearing the name of Christ......the 3rd Commandment of blasphemy is still a valid charge.

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## Taylor (Jun 19, 2021)

Grant said:


> @Taylor
> 
> I think we also need to have some balance regarding the historical context of the 3rd commandment. I was recently reminded of this by Douma’s work on the 10 Commandments. Misuse of the Lord’s name is certainly very present today and extremely vile. However, I think in OT times this was more pointy directed at those who would literally curse the name, works, and or words of God in a direct manner. Today’s flippant use, in various reactive comments, of the Lord’s name tend to be less a direct intentional cursing of God and more of a sinfully lazy and disrespectful use (both still 3CVs). I hope that makes some since. I say none of this to disagree with you, but rather to express that sin has degrees so I think the office worker that text “OM...” is still guilty of sin, but NOT to the degree the Pharisees were when they cursed Christ. So it’s could be argued that a thoughtless irreverent misuse of God’s name (compared to a more direct intentional blasphemy) is in fact NOT as egregious as a literal Rape or Abortion. Why? Well any command broken in the 2nd table can be traced back to a direct violation of the 1st table (And really vice versa). When we sin against our neighbor, especially those bearing the name of Christ......the 3rd Commandment of blasphemy is still valid charge.


Thanks. I was explicitly talking about _blasphemy_, not just careless speech patterns. Obviously there is an aspect of our culture's parlance that has flippant and thoughtless profanity laced through it. At the same time, your balance, while appreciated, doesn't hold entirely. If it did, then when _thoughtful_ blasphemy becomes a habit and thus crosses over into _thoughtless_ blasphemy, then it has by this standard become less heinous. But this cannot at all be the case. So, while I again appreciate your thoughts here, and they are certainly well-taken, blasphemy is still blasphemy, regardless of whether or not it is intentional or even realized. But I would like to stress again the context of my own words in this thread. We are talking about blasphemy which in the OP is described not as thoughtless, but as "_exceedingly _vulgar" and "quite strong language involving the divine name."


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## Smeagol (Jun 19, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Thanks. I was explicitly talking about _blasphemy_, not just careless speech patterns. Obviously there is an aspect of our culture's parlance that has flippant and thoughtless profanity laced through it. At the same time, your balance, while appreciated, doesn't hold entirely. If it did, then when _thoughtful_ blasphemy becomes a habit and thus crosses over into _thoughtless_ blasphemy, then it has by this standard become less heinous. But this cannot at all be the case. So, while I again appreciate your thoughts here, and they are certainly well-taken, blasphemy is still blasphemy, regardless of whether or not it is intentional or even realized. But I would like to stress again the context of my own words in this thread. We are talking about blasphemy which in the OPC is described not as thoughtless, but as "_exceedingly _vulgar" and "quite strong language involving the divine name."


So I will need some more assistance here to make sure I understand you rightly. So do you accept or reject the idea that intentional sin is more heinous than unintentional?

P.S. What do you mean by “in the OPC”? I think you and I hold to the same confession regardless of our denomination. Or this is this just a BCO reference? Just to be cautious, I hope you read my tone as nothing more than friendly curiosity and seeking better understanding.


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## Taylor (Jun 19, 2021)

Grant said:


> So I will need some more assistance here to make sure I understand you rightly. So do you accept or reject the idea that intentional sin is more heinous than unintentional?


It depends. I agree that unintentional blasphemy is most of the time less heinous than a high-handed cursing of God. At the same time, I am trying to protect against the unbiblical but logically necessary result of taking a hard stance on this position. Our speech often becomes full of patterns due to the constant use of some words or phrases, and with that comes a kind of thoughtlessness. What was once quite intentional and thoughtful becomes mere habit. If that is the case, it would stand to reason that blasphemy, once it becomes a habitual and thoughtless pattern, would become _less_ heinous of a sin. But this would be nonsense, biblically speaking. Just because we get used to our sin, and therefore more thoughtless in the committing of it, does not make it less heinous.



Grant said:


> P.S. What do you mean by “in the OPC”? I think you and I hold to the same confession regardless of our denomination. Or this is this just a BCO reference?


Typo. It has been corrected.

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## Smeagol (Jun 19, 2021)

Taylor said:


> Typo. It has been corrected.


This is what I figured and hoped, knowing you on this board. Thanks for the interaction. May your Lord’s Day be a blessing to you and the wife.

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## Ed Walsh (Jun 20, 2021)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> I love the thought, and I agree this is how it should be, but the concept goes way against our typical systematic theology.
> 
> Systematics would teach that we are depraved, that we cannot change until God changes us. That we cannot reform ourselves apart from the Spirit giving us life. We could not expect a bad tree to bear good fruit.
> 
> I personally observe that non Christians are capable of doing plenty of good and loving things so long as they will to, but I know that goes against what I generally hear preached. So I guess it's confusing to me.



I am not at all thinking or even hoping that the unbeliever will become a better person. I am talking about _corrosion_. Whatever station in life you find yourself in, you are responsible for seeing that the people under your influence _act_ in a more godly way. Not that they _become_ more godly. That's what law is all about--corrosion. In some situations, all you can do is ask (and hope) that people behave better. But a father, an elder, or a civil ruler has varying degrees of influence that should be used to promote proper outward behavior. Only God can change the heart.

From Fisher's Catechism. quoting the Westminster Confession of Faith Chapter 23 Section 3

Q. 23. What is the duty of the magistrate with reference to the church of Christ?
A. Although he “may not assume to himself the administration of word and
sacraments, or the power of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, yet he hath authority,
and it is his duty to take order, that unity and peace be preserved in the church, —
that the truth of God be kept pure and entire, — that all blasphemies and heresies be
suppressed, — all corruptions and abuses in worship and discipline prevented and
reformed, — and all the ordinances of God duly settled, administered, and
observed.”

To allow your neighbor to continue in sin and say nothing is to hate him.

Leviticus 19:17-18​Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thy heart:​thou shalt surely rebuke thy neighbor, and not bear sin because of him.​Thou shalt not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people;​but thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I am Jehovah.​

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## B.L. (Jun 20, 2021)

Ed Walsh said:


> From Fisher's Catechism. quoting the Westminster Confession of Faith Chapter 23 Section 3



Way off topic, but I noticed last week while perusing Amazon's "buy 2 get 3" deal that the Fisher's Catechism volume you edited was included among a bunch of other gems. 

(While some may wish to not support Amazon, which is understandable, the "buy 2 get 3" deals are pretty amazing. I blew through the rest of the year's book allowance this past week. Lol.)


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## Miss Marple (Jun 20, 2021)

Pergamum said:


> People that become the moral policemen of others can be very irritating. Try not to be irritating.


A good philosophy of life in general!


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## Miss Marple (Jun 20, 2021)

VictorBravo said:


> Non Christians can be shown what God's law requires. And, through simple observation, we know that people have some degree of self control.
> 
> As a judge once said to a chronic girl-friend abuser who said he just lost it:
> 
> "But you do have self control. There is only one person you 'just lost it' with. For some reason you don't 'just lose it' with me."


I love this insight and Dr. Laura of all people first laid it out for me. She mentioned the guy who is screaming at his wife in the car and gets pulled over. Immediately it's, "Yes, Officer?" Perfect self control and politeness. Virtually all of us can control ourselves. We just choose not to.


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## Irenaeus (Jun 20, 2021)

Thank you to all who have shared out of your wisdom and insights. I appreciate the responses and will prayerfully ponder them. It's now somewhat clear to me that, regardless of if or when I speak up, I need to be exercising prayer, humility, and discernment. I also need to attend to relationships with my co-workers and keep vigilant guard over my own mouth and actions so that my testimony, whether silent or verbal, is a credible one. It is very helpful to be reminded of these things. Please pray that I will keep all this in mind so that anything that comes out of my mouth will be a word spoken in due season.

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