# -



## jw (Jun 27, 2011)

-


----------



## Bill The Baptist (Jun 27, 2011)

blah lah blabety blah ra henona blabety blah lah blah blah blah. Oh wait, I'm sorry but I forgot we don't have an interpreter present and you haven't been baptized the Holy Spirit, what I meant to say was that I agree with you.


----------



## Rich Koster (Jun 27, 2011)




----------



## Notthemama1984 (Jun 27, 2011)

This is interesting and I appreciate the links. I would have assumed that Hebrew was not a common language even among Jews. This is the reason for the Septuagint. Thus I would never have thought of I Cor. 14 referring to Hebrew.

I look forward to listening and hearing what the good Rev says.


----------



## au5t1n (Jun 27, 2011)

Hey, we haven't listened to all of these in New Braunfels yet. Don't give away the ending!!!


----------



## KMK (Jun 27, 2011)

Now if we can just get Piper, Grudem and Storms to read Isaiah 28 in context!


----------



## Notthemama1984 (Jun 27, 2011)

Piper allows for tongues? I did not realize that.


----------



## Bill The Baptist (Jun 27, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> Piper allows for tongues? I did not realize that.



With all the various stories and questions about John Piper lately, I think it is important to note that he is neither Presbyterian nor Southern Baptist and so his less than orthodox (according to us) stance on some things really shouldn't surprise us all that much.


----------



## Notthemama1984 (Jun 27, 2011)

Orthodoxy can exist outside of Presbyterian denoms and the SBC.


----------



## Bill The Baptist (Jun 27, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> Orthodoxy can exist outside of Presbyterian denoms and the SBC.



Yes, but it gets harder and harder to find.


----------



## Notthemama1984 (Jun 27, 2011)

Not really. There is a huge movement to the Bible Church. Come to DTS and you will find hundreds of people who could easily fit in the SBC, but are ministering in independent community churches. 

Johnny Mac is an example of this.


----------



## timmopussycat (Jun 27, 2011)

Of all the languages in the world, the one language that the tongues in 1 Cor. 14 *cannot possibly *be, is Hebrew. 
Why?
Because as Paul notes in that very chapter (v.31), citing Is. 28 "In the law it is written, 'By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people and even then they will not listen to me says the Lord." Even thouggh Hebrew was no longer the daily language of the Jews, it was not a strange tongue to them and those who spoke it were not usually foreigners. For Edersheim tells us that synogogue instruction was carried out in both Aramaic and Hebrew and it is certain that Jesus and his disciples knew enough Hebrew to conduct disputes with the Pharisees who apparently exclusively disputed in that language.

The majority of charismatics and all charismaniacs forget that the primary purpose of New Testament tongues is to witness of judgment against unbelievers within national Israel, a result we see (hypothetically) illustrated in v. 32,33.


----------



## timmopussycat (Jun 27, 2011)

It is also worth noting that Hebrew is not one of the "strange tongues" mentioned in Acts 2:8-11.


----------



## matthew11v25 (Jun 28, 2011)

Thanks for sharing. I have enjoyed the first two so far. 

Whether or not one initially agrees with the claim of how the hebrew language relates to the passage, I would recommend listening in to get the full argument.


----------



## lynnie (Jun 28, 2011)

_For if I pray in a tongue, *my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful*. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. 16If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understande say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? 17You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified. 

18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue._ 

You are claiming that Paul is referring to Hebrew? His mind did not understand it when he prayed? How about the reference to tongues of angels? Angels speak Hebrew?

Classic cessationism makes so much more sense, I mean, just admit it was exactly the miracle that it obviously was, and then decide it ceased. (I am no cessationist, but I at least appreciate that they call a miracle a miracle.) Don't try to deny the miraculous.


----------



## Bill The Baptist (Jun 28, 2011)

> Did you listen to the sermons? I am talking specifically about 1 Corinthians 14. I never said his mind doesn't understand it. You said that. There is no reference to "tongues of angels" in 1 Corinthians 14, the passage under consideration. I also never said that speaking in tongues, the biblical version of it, was not miraculous. That would be silly. I just don't think it's "ecstatic utterances" of gibberish. I believe that the instance we see in Acts 2, for example, is a miraculous occurrence, with the men preaching speaking in the various languages of the assembled people. I also believe they _miraculously_ understood what it was that they were preaching. I just think that, before that moment, they didn't know those languages and were furnished with the understanding of them. If you're not inclined to listen to the sermons, that's fine, but please do so before making assumptions that I believe are adequately addressed in the sermons.



I agree with you completely. I do not understand how people can say that the ability to suddenly be able to speak and understand a language to which you have never been exposed is not a miracle. Why do we feel the need to "enhance" the miracle by making these toungues into some kind of mystical angel language.


----------



## Manuel (Jun 30, 2011)

lynnie said:


> _For if I pray in a tongue, *my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful*. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. 16If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understande say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? 17You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.
> 
> 18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue._
> 
> ...


When Paul says: "my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful" he is not saying that the person speaking in tongues did not understand what he/she was saying, unfruitful means that it doesn't edify others; others don't understand and therefore they can't say "Amen" and they are not edified. Verse 17 illustrates this very well: 

_*17You may be giving thanks well enough,*_ (my spirit prays) _*but the other man is not edified*._(my understanding is unfruitful)


----------

