# Ergun Caner Gets a New Gig



## Fly Caster (May 18, 2011)

ARLINGTON BAPTIST COLLEGE CALLS ERGUN CANER AS PROVOST AND VICE PRESIDENT OF ACADEMIC AFFAIRS



I'm not familiar with this place. I've heard of (President) D.L. Moody, but I didn't realize that he was still living.


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## Kevin (May 18, 2011)

Thanks for the update. I had heard that LU wouldn't keep him for next year, but didn't know where he would land.


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## Herald (May 18, 2011)

May the Reformed camp avoid such embarrassing and un-Christlike behavior. 

sent from my most excellent Motorola Atrix.


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## AThornquist (May 18, 2011)

Cool! It says that Caner will teach Apologetics there. I hear he has some stellar credentials.


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## eqdj (May 18, 2011)

It's my understanding that ABC is an IFB institution.
I believe his brother teaches at Sotuhwestern in Fort Worth?


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## Kevin (May 18, 2011)

His brother is the pres @ a baptist college in GA. Truett McConnell? possibly?

---------- Post added at 07:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:54 PM ----------

yup. here he is Official Site of Emir Caner


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## Bill The Baptist (May 18, 2011)

Joshua said:


> They, like the run-ers of Liberty, Norm Geisler, and numerous foolish students, apparently don't care about integrity, honesty, and consistency. "If we ignore it, it didn't happen."



Norman Geisler is at Southern Evangelical Seminary. Not a big surprise about Caner though. I'm just don"t understand why they didn't just fire him outright, maybe they feared a lawsuit or something.


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## Bill The Baptist (May 18, 2011)

Joshua said:


> I know he's at Veritas, and not Liberty, but I'm including the folks onthe board at Liberty who were squeamish in their "investigation" and "hush hush" approach to the whole debacle. Shame on them. And Norm Geisler too.



I really believe that in their minds he did nothing wrong. They only let him go because of outside pressure. The core tenet of pragmatism is that the ends justify the means, so if by embellishing his testimony Ergun Caner "brings" more people to Christ, then that is perfectly acceptable.


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## torstar (May 18, 2011)

That's a nice bio for Ergun in the presser.

A lot different from prior bios he allowed up on screens in his pursuit of the intellectual life.


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## BenjaminBurton (May 18, 2011)

eqdj said:


> It's my understanding that ABC is an IFB institution.
> I believe his brother teaches at Sotuhwestern in Fort Worth?


 
His brother is president at Truett McConnell. And had a wonderful tweet recently equating Acts 29 with the p0rnography found in bin Laden's hideout. Ridiculous


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## Notthemama1984 (May 18, 2011)

BenjaminBurton said:


> And had a wonderful tweet recently equating Acts 29 with the p0rnography found in bin Laden's hideout.



Oh how lovely.


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## Fly Caster (May 19, 2011)

BenjaminBurton said:


> eqdj said:
> 
> 
> > It's my understanding that ABC is an IFB institution.
> ...



I was puzzled by "Acts 29" so I Googled it. Found out that it referred to something of which I am not a fan-- but also saw the tweet, which is pathetic.

Apparently integrity doesn't matter too much to the Caner clan.


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## torstar (May 19, 2011)

Herald said:


> May the Reformed camp avoid such embarrassing and un-Christlike behavior.
> 
> sent from my most excellent Motorola Atrix.


 

May it indeed, but we have enough hassles and scandals to deal with, but not of a nature like this one.


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## Bill The Baptist (May 19, 2011)

Fly Caster said:


> I'm not familiar with this place. I've heard of (President) D.L. Moody, but I didn't realize that he was still living.



D.L. Moody the famous evangelist died in 1899. I am assuming the D.L. Moody at Arlington is a descendant of some sort.


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## DMcFadden (May 19, 2011)

Evidently the Arlington campus is the site of the former Top O' Hill Terrace casino. Prior to Ergun Caner, the place attracted the likes of Joe Louis, Humphrey Bogart, and Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow. Because of such historical notoriety, Texas declared it an historic site in 2004.

With his penchant for describing Calvinism in fair and balanced ways, I suspect that he will be just about as honest as "Bonnie and Clyde" in his approach to teaching theology.

Philippians 1:18 [sigh].


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## Fly Caster (May 19, 2011)

Bill The Baptist said:


> Fly Caster said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not familiar with this place. I've heard of (President) D.L. Moody, but I didn't realize that he was still living.
> ...


 
I know. Some pretty tall tales pop-up around Caner, but I figure that even he can't pull off claiming to work with a famous 184 year old guy.


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## Bill The Baptist (May 19, 2011)

DMcFadden said:


> With his penchant for describing Calvinism in fair and balanced ways, I suspect that he will be just about as honest as "Bonnie and Clyde" in his approach to teaching theology



You mean like this YouTube - ‪Has Ergun Caner even read Romans 9?‬&rlm;


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## Damon Rambo (May 19, 2011)

Bill The Baptist said:


> Joshua said:
> 
> 
> > I know he's at Veritas, and not Liberty, but I'm including the folks onthe board at Liberty who were squeamish in their "investigation" and "hush hush" approach to the whole debacle. Shame on them. And Norm Geisler too.
> ...


 
Actually, a couple things to note:

#1 Ergun had a contract. The ethics clause that I am sure that it contained, almost certainly contained wording about discretionary investigations, in cases of alleged wrong doing. They could not just go "You are fired, you liar!" and kick him out.

#2 Liberty insiders are saying that nearly half of the board wanted to get rid of him immediately, when the news broke last year, but the larger percentage held their ground. However, Ergun's refusal to repent and issue a public apology forced their hand. Ergun was quietly told to find a new place of employment. (edit: I wanted to note that this is the info posted on several blogs, and being put out by certain people with Liberty, but is no way an "official" statement by Liberty. That is all.).

#3 The new place that Ergun is moving, is not SBC. So Ergun is not only leaving Liberty (which is an SBC college), but also the Southern Baptist Convention. This means our cooperative dollars will no longer fund Mr. Fake. Which is a good thing, In my humble opinion.


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## Bill The Baptist (May 19, 2011)

Damon Rambo said:


> Actually, a couple things to note:
> 
> #1 Ergun had a contract. The ethics clause that I am sure that it contained, almost certainly contained wording about discretionary investigations, in cases of alleged wrong doing. They could not just go "You are fired, you liar!" and kick him out.
> 
> ...



I agree that this is probably what happened. It just perplexes me as to why so many on the board at Liberty still supported him even after all the evidence. Honestly I would be the first to forgive Ergun Caner and let all this go if he would simply humble himself and repent, but he will not do it. I also don't think that Liberty is technically an SBC college. Thomas Road Baptist Church is an SBC church, but I am pretty sure the college is tecnically independent.


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## Notthemama1984 (May 19, 2011)

Yes, Liberty is independent. Cooperative dollars fund the big six, and Liberty is not one of them.


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## Damon Rambo (May 19, 2011)

Bill The Baptist said:


> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, a couple things to note:
> ...


 
I agree, brother. But I am not going to pound someone over being too forgiving. I have better things to attack.

As far as Liberty; they receive cooperative money from the Southern Baptist Conservatives of Virginia and are listed as an "SBC College" just like Criswell and Boyce...

Southern Baptist Convention - Colleges and Universities

---------- Post added at 10:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:31 AM ----------




Chaplainintraining said:


> Yes, Liberty is independent. Cooperative dollars fund the big six, and Liberty is not one of them.


 
Liberty is Southern Baptist, and receives cooperative dollars from the Southern Baptist Conservatives of Virginia.


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## Bill The Baptist (May 19, 2011)

Damon Rambo said:


> I agree, brother. But I am not going to pound someone over being too forgiving. I have better things to attack.
> 
> As far as Liberty; they receive cooperative money from the Southern Baptist Conservatives of Virginia and are listed as an "SBC College" just like Criswell and Boyce...



I agree, we most definitely have better things to attack. As for Liberty getting SBC money, in the words of Johnny Carson, "I did not know that..Mmmmm."


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## Notthemama1984 (May 19, 2011)

Bill The Baptist said:


> #3 The new place that Ergun is moving, is not SBC. So Ergun is not only leaving Liberty (which is an SBC college), but also the Southern Baptist Convention. This means our cooperative dollars will no longer fund Mr. Fake. Which is a good thing, In my humble opinion



This statement is saying that the Caner is out of the SBC and that SBC dollars will no longer fund him. 



> The Southern Baptist Convention lists the following colleges and universities as a service to Southern Baptists and the Baptist state conventions with which it maintains a cooperative relationship. With the exception of the five theological colleges associated with our SBC seminaries, the Southern Baptist Convention has no direct connection with any of these institutions. It provides no funding. It elects no trustees. Each institution is related to one of our partnering Baptist state conventions.
> 
> The Cooperative Program is the unified budget plan adopted by the SBC. Each state convention receives Cooperative Program funds from churches in its state or region. The state convention retains a portion of Cooperative Program contributions from its affiliated churches for missions and ministries in its respective state or region. If a college or university receives funding from a Baptist state convention, this funding comes only from Cooperative Program funds forwarded to the state convention by churches in that respective state. No Cooperative Program funds forwarded by the states to the national convention (the SBC) are allocated to a college or university related to any of our partnering Baptist state conventions.
> 
> ...



This statement seems to say that these colleges and universities are in fact independent of the SBC. The SBC has no oversight and gives no money to them.

---------- Post added at 10:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:37 AM ----------

Also notice here that the SBCV does not give any financial support to Liberty.

Liberty University, SBC of Virginia and Ergun Caner | SBC Voices


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## Grimmson (May 19, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> Bill The Baptist said:
> 
> 
> > #3 The new place that Ergun is moving, is not SBC. So Ergun is not only leaving Liberty (which is an SBC college), but also the Southern Baptist Convention. This means our cooperative dollars will no longer fund Mr. Fake. Which is a good thing, In my humble opinion
> ...


 
Liberty I think is technically independent, but it does receive board oversight by people from the SBC and does receive cooperative funds by the Southern Baptist Conservatives of Virginia. The amount of SBC folks involved and money given challenges its independence in overall practice.


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## Notthemama1984 (May 19, 2011)

Grimmson said:


> does receive cooperative funds by the Southern Baptist Conservatives of Virginia.



The link I posted shows otherwise. The SBCV does have members on the board of Liberty though.


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## Grimmson (May 19, 2011)

Liberty has been classified as a partner of the SBCV, see the following link:
Southern Baptist Conservatives of Virginia: Partners
Also check out the following quote from Associated Baptist Press - After investigation into claims, Liberty University demotes Ergun Caner :
“Liberty is not formally tied with the Southern Baptist Convention, but former SBC presidents Bailey Smith, Jerry Vines, James Merritt, Jack Graham and Johnny Hunt serve on its board of trustees. Other Southern Baptist trustees include Ronnie Floyd, who recently chaired a Great Commission Task Force that studied the denomination's effectiveness, and Doyle Chauncey, founding executive director of the Southern Baptist Conservatives of Virginia, which supports Liberty University as a ministry partner. ”


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## Notthemama1984 (May 19, 2011)

> Trustees of the school begun by Jerry Falwell issued a statement June 25 saying Ergun Caner made "factual statements that are self-contradictory" and that he would step down as dean of Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary when his contract expires June 30. *The statement said Caner was offered and accepted a contract allowing him to remain on the faculty as a professor for the next academic year*.



Now that is really telling. He was not under contract for the next year, they offered him a new one.


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## Bill The Baptist (May 19, 2011)

If it doesn't work out at Arlington, he can always get a gig playing Mr. Clean


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## Damon Rambo (May 19, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> Bill The Baptist said:
> 
> 
> > #3 The new place that Ergun is moving, is not SBC. So Ergun is not only leaving Liberty (which is an SBC college), but also the Southern Baptist Convention. This means our cooperative dollars will no longer fund Mr. Fake. Which is a good thing, In my humble opinion
> ...



My apologies. I should be precise. Our church gives to the SB of Texas convention. But we are also "SBC" because the SB of Texas, gives to the SBC. So I tend to lump them altogether. As far as the rest, see below.



> > The Southern Baptist Convention lists the following colleges and universities as a service to Southern Baptists and the Baptist state conventions with which it maintains a cooperative relationship. With the exception of the five theological colleges associated with our SBC seminaries, the Southern Baptist Convention has no direct connection with any of these institutions. It provides no funding. It elects no trustees. Each institution is related to one of our partnering Baptist state conventions.
> >
> > The Cooperative Program is the unified budget plan adopted by the SBC. Each state convention receives Cooperative Program funds from churches in its state or region. The state convention retains a portion of Cooperative Program contributions from its affiliated churches for missions and ministries in its respective state or region. If a college or university receives funding from a Baptist state convention, this funding comes only from Cooperative Program funds forwarded to the state convention by churches in that respective state. No Cooperative Program funds forwarded by the states to the national convention (the SBC) are allocated to a college or university related to any of our partnering Baptist state conventions.
> >
> ...


 
This was a rather disingenuous article. While SB Conservatives of Virginia might not literally hand over cash to Libertty, they provide scholarships specifically for Liberty students, that do indeed come out of the cooperative program in Virginia.

Financial Aid | Scholarships | Liberty University 

So, yes, cooperative money does indeed go to Liberty, whether it is "officially" to a student or directly to Liberty.

Also, Liberty itself claims affiliation with the SBC. They also adhere to the 2000 BFM. No, there is no "oversight" in terms of having control over the Seminary, but then, there is no such oversight with Criswell, Boyce, or any host of other SBC colleges that voluntarily affiliate with the SBC. My point is that Ergun is leaving a self proclaimed SBC college. And yes, there are cooperative dollars which are no longer helping to pay for him.


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## Notthemama1984 (May 19, 2011)

He may want to lay off the waffles and start working out to get that gig.


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## Grimmson (May 19, 2011)

I agree with the financial slight of hand by the SBCV through grants and scholarship Damon. But techically speaking isnt Tomas Road suppose to have oversight on the college/seminary?


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## Notthemama1984 (May 19, 2011)

Damon Rambo said:


> While SB Conservatives of Virginia might not literally hand over cash to Libertty, they provide scholarships specifically for Liberty students, that do indeed come out of the cooperative program in Virginia.



I see what you are saying. I was not thinking about scholarships.


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## torstar (May 19, 2011)

It's a tragedy that the DrErgunCaner page videos were taken down from youtube.

Best spoof of all time, even had him on the grounds of Liberty for a few of them.


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## Damon Rambo (May 19, 2011)

Grimmson said:


> I agree with the financial slight of hand by the SBCV through grants and scholarship Damon. But techically speaking isnt Tomas Road suppose to have oversight on the college/seminary?


 
That's true. So I guess in a round about way, there is oversight. I just meant that the SBC does not have oversight, the way they have over, say, Southern Baptist Seminary in Kentucky.


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## Grimmson (May 19, 2011)

Damon Rambo said:


> Grimmson said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with the financial slight of hand by the SBCV through grants and scholarship Damon. But techically speaking isnt Tomas Road suppose to have oversight on the college/seminary?
> ...


 
Yes, but Thomas Road is an SBC church.


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## Damon Rambo (May 21, 2011)

HEY! Someone just pointed this out to me...

Ergun Caner is famous for being violently anti-Calvinist. He is majorly synergistic...yet check out Arlington's statement of faith, which is decidedly NOT synergistic...

Enriching the Mind, Inspiring the Heart



> "We believe that in order to be saved, sinners must be born again; that the new birth is a new creation in Christ Jesus; that it is instantaneous and not a process; *that in the new birth the dead in trespasses and in sins is made a partaker of the divine nature and receives eternal life, the free gift of God*; that the new creation is brought about in a manner above our comprehension, *not by culture, not by character, nor by the will of man, but wholly and solely by the power of the Holy Spirit* in connection with divine truth, so as to secure our voluntary obedience to the gospel; *that its proper evidence appears in the holy fruits of repentance and faith and newness of life."*



How is THAT supposed to mesh with Caner, who called Calvinists (who he describes as people denying man's free will in choosing salvation), "worse than Muslims"?


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## Herald (May 21, 2011)

Damon.

I'm not sure that quote supports a monergistic view of salvation. It mentions the power of God (which synergists would agree with) but the language of divine election. To it's credit it does seen to come down on the side of Lordship Salvation. 

sent from my most excellent Motorola Atrix.


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## Notthemama1984 (May 21, 2011)

Damon Rambo said:


> "We believe that in order to be saved, sinners must be born again; that the new birth is a new creation in Christ Jesus; that it is instantaneous and not a process; that in the new birth the dead in trespasses and in sins is made a partaker of the divine nature and receives eternal life, the free gift of God; that the new creation is brought about in a manner above our comprehension, not by culture, not by character, nor by the will of man, but wholly and solely by the power of the Holy Spirit in connection with divine truth, so as to secure our voluntary obedience to the gospel; that its proper evidence appears in the holy fruits of repentance and faith and newness of life."



I know of Arminians who could affirm this in good conscience.


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## Damon Rambo (May 21, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> > "We believe that in order to be saved, sinners must be born again; that the new birth is a new creation in Christ Jesus; that it is instantaneous and not a process; that in the new birth the dead in trespasses and in sins is made a partaker of the divine nature and receives eternal life, the free gift of God; that the new creation is brought about in a manner above our comprehension, not by culture, not by character, nor by the will of man, but wholly and solely by the power of the Holy Spirit in connection with divine truth, so as to secure our voluntary obedience to the gospel; that its proper evidence appears in the holy fruits of repentance and faith and newness of life."
> ...


 
Really? Even with the "nor by the will of man" statement, and the "fruits" of faith and repentance? I have to study Arminianism more, I guess. I always thought that Arminians believed faith is a choice, not a result of the work of God in a person. I know that is what Caner believes, having heard him say it...

How can a Synergist deny the will of man's part in salvation? What is the second part, if not man's will?


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## Notthemama1984 (May 21, 2011)

The Arminian will say that the will of man cannot cause or create the new creation. It is completely an act of God. The will of man merely asks God to bring about that new creation.

For Arminian theology, I highly recommend Olson's _Arminian Theology_. It has cleared up many misconceptions I had about Arminianism


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## Damon Rambo (May 21, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> The Arminian will say that the will of man cannot cause or create the new creation. It is completely an act of God. The will of man merely asks God to bring about that new creation.



But is that not specifically denied by the statement that the rebirth itself "secures" our voluntary obedience to the gospel? They have the rebirth preceding acquiescence to the gospel, and faith; it would seem a Synergist would be hard pressed to fit free will into that statement. 



> For Arminian theology, I highly recommend Olson's _Arminian Theology_. It has cleared up many misconceptions I had about Arminianism



Thanks. I will have to get that...as painful as it will be to read.


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## torstar (May 21, 2011)

The less one is anchored to a church that requires knowledge and adherence to confession and creed, the more you will be set adrift dealing with people who change their theology to suit the immediate environment (and they are not always trying to be deceitful.)


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## Notthemama1984 (May 21, 2011)

Damon Rambo said:


> But is that not specifically denied by the statement that the rebirth itself "secures" our voluntary obedience to the gospel? They have the rebirth preceding acquiescence to the gospel, and faith; it would seem a Synergist would be hard pressed to fit free will into that statement.



The Arminian will say that prevenient grace must preceed faith and regeneration. Without this gracious act of God, man could never ask God to bring about this new creation.

Now don't get me wrong. I think the Arminian has serious flaws, but in the end they could affirm the quote you provided.


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## Damon Rambo (May 21, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> > But is that not specifically denied by the statement that the rebirth itself "secures" our voluntary obedience to the gospel? They have the rebirth preceding acquiescence to the gospel, and faith; it would seem a Synergist would be hard pressed to fit free will into that statement.
> ...


 
I understand that, brother. But it doesn't say it "grants a possibility" of accepting the gospel, which would be true of 'prevenient grace.' It says it "secures" obedience to the gospel. Also, we cannot confuse prevenient grace with being born again. The statement above clearly states that one must be born again in order to have faith, and submit to the gospel. Would not Arminians say that one must have prevenient grace, in order to believe, and that _then_ one would have faith and be born again?

Not trying to argue; just trying to better understand.

Also: after doing some research, apparently Arlington Baptist College has actually been criticized for "Calvinist" views (even "hyper" Calvinism). This was one of the driving forces in starting the "International Baptist Fellowship International" ; a split off of the WBF


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## Notthemama1984 (May 21, 2011)

Damon Rambo said:


> understand that, brother. But it doesn't say it "grants a possibility" of accepting the gospel, which would be true of 'prevenient grace.' It says it "secures" obedience to the gospel. Also, we cannot confuse prevenient grace with being born again. The statement above clearly states that one must be born again in order to have faith, and submit to the gospel. Would not Arminians say that one must have prevenient grace, in order to believe, and that then one would have faith and be born again?



Arminian will have:

Prevenient grace brings us to a point of faith (solely a work of God)
Man exercises faith (a work of man)
The Spirit responds to this faith regenerates us and secures our obedience (solely a work of God). 

I am sure that some Arminian could nit pick the quote, but a vast majority would accept it and drive on.


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## Damon Rambo (May 21, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> > understand that, brother. But it doesn't say it "grants a possibility" of accepting the gospel, which would be true of 'prevenient grace.' It says it "secures" obedience to the gospel. Also, we cannot confuse prevenient grace with being born again. The statement above clearly states that one must be born again in order to have faith, and submit to the gospel. Would not Arminians say that one must have prevenient grace, in order to believe, and that then one would have faith and be born again?
> ...


 
I am not saying that some Arminians would not simply "accept it and drive on" from a spirit of ecumenism and theological laziness. Yet the quote nevertheless is clearly at odds with Arminianism, placing the new birth before faith and repentance. It is also clearly at odds with what Caner himself has taught and preached.


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## Notthemama1984 (May 21, 2011)

Damon Rambo said:


> I am not saying that some Arminians would not simply "accept it and drive on" from a spirit of ecumenism and theological laziness.



I don't think it is out of ecumenism and theological laziness. It is out of a clear conscience. I think you are reading your Calvinism into the quote. I believe the quote leans monergistic, but is vague enough that a synergist could agree in good faith.


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## Bill The Baptist (May 21, 2011)

Just as a side note, a friend of mine at seminary follows Ergun Caner's twitter feed and apparently Dr. Caner tweeted this morning that everyone should get a trumpet and blow it at 6pm just to upset the atheists. What? So we should somehow lend credence to a crackpot just to annoy atheists? And isn't Dr. Caner a good dispensationalist? If so, then wouldn't he believe in a silent rapture? Just wondering if he even knows what he believes.


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