# The Effectual Call of the Gospel and Preaching



## Pergamum (Oct 19, 2007)

fChapter 10 (I have bolded the most relevant parts related to my question):

Of Effectual Calling.
I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by his *Word* and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ: enlightening their minds, spiritually and savingly, to understand the things of God, taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good; and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace. 

II. This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from any thing at all foreseen in man, who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it. 

III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how he pleaseth. So also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word. 

IV. *Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet they never truly come to Christ*, and therefore can not be saved: much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the law of that religion they do profess; and to assert and maintain that they may is without warrant of the Word of God.




TWO QUESTIONS:


FIRST: THis chapter appears to speak of some people "approaching the faith", i.e. being drawn somewhat, but never coming to faith.

This seems to relate to the doctrine of Seeking. People seem to be awakened and God sometimes draws people slowly and one's coming to faith often takes years as they slowly open up to the GOspel. SOme people only take an interest for a time. Though regeneration is a moment in time, one's coming to Christ often appears gradual.

WHat is the mechanics of this? Certainly regeneration is not gradual, but one's coming to faith often seems like a process rather than a sudden event. 

Also, what about the doctrine of seeking? Do you all acknowlege that sinners sometimes begin to "seek" the Lord even before they are regenerated?



SECOND: THis is my main question;


Usually when people trust in Christ and receive Him, it is usually not done under the preaching of the Word in church.

People usually seem to come to faith through the "telling" of the Story, the "Explanation" of Christ's work etc, but we often equte the effectual calling with the public ministry of the Word. 

In fact, preaching seems to be not even the majority of cases in which people seem to consciosuly trust in Christ - the moment that they consider their new birth. 

Again, as shocking as it sounds to many: Most people do not appear to be "saved" through public preaching.



How closely or loosely must we link effectual calling with the WOrd of God, or at least is public preaching? ALso, do you acknolwedge that my statement is true: that public preaching is not how most people come to Christ? and if so, how would this affect our witness and evangelism and mission work?


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## Contra_Mundum (Oct 20, 2007)

I think regeneration can be described as a process, much as birth is a process. Life begins at conception (call that THE act of regeneration if you will). But there is "process" even before that, right? And isn't gestation something of a preparatory or "completing" process as respects that new life in the womb? Conversion may be closer to an "event" (I say) than regeneration. Seems like that event is the "emerging from the womb".

Call the people who experience "common operations" of the Spirit those who are never converted, never "born" spiritually. The "life" they had, such as it was, of it could be called that, was an abortion. But "he who began the good work in you will be faithful to complete it." The elect will finish that process, somehow, someway.


As for the second question/issue:
I don't believe in questing after "decisions" of any kind. I'm not looking to "close any deals." I *believe* that the ministry of the Word does what God says, so I act in accord with it. I preach and teach it. And I don't look for the "conversion" event. I look for the "fruit of righteousness" in disciples. I call for belief, for faith in God and his Word.

Missionaries, especially pioneer missionaries, they need to settle in for the long haul. How long did Adoniram Judson wait for his first convert? Or the beginning of the CIM? How long before there was a real "face" to the Chinese church? A century? God does things differently in different places. John Paton was many years working on his Islands. But God let him see amazing fruit before he died. Yet not every preacher sees the fruit of his planting, or watering.

Believe in the preaching. And don't forget the praying, the wrestling. God will use his "major means." And it will do far more in the long run than all the alternatives.


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## Pergamum (Oct 20, 2007)

Regeneration as a "process" almost sounds shocking. Can you explain? 

The process of salvation is a life long process, but certain events happen at a moment - though we do not know when that moment is.


As far as preaching goes. Most people are not saved by "preaching" - unless you expand that definition of preaching to many other forms of telling about the Gospel.


What are the categories by which the Word of God spreads: preaching, prcolaiming, Gospelling, explaining, heralding....etc. 

It appears that "preaching" is not the main means even though "getting the Word" out is, whether it is done behind a pulpit, sitting around a campfire, telling children the story of the GOspel, passing out tracts, etc.

How do you define preaching? What would you tell missionaries who explain the Gospel informally around campfires at night in discussion format. Is that preaching too? It seems that reformed folks put a high regard on preaching, when public preaching behind a pulpit on the Sabbath - while commanded and God gloryifyng - is often not the way God draws people by His Word.


This question has nothing to do with not trusting GOd's Word. It has nothing to do with trying to get results and not wanting to wait 7 years like Judson in BUurma. 


Judson, by the way, changed his means to get results: 

He saw that local Burmese religious teachers took on a special garb and sat in special teaching booths, called zayats. Therefore, he began to dress like these religious teachers and taught in a sitting posiiton by means of a more "buddhist" style. THese booths are called zayats. Judson trusted in the Word of God and he did not Preach publicly and when he did to no affect, he went to another way of explaining the Word of God.




"Adoniram Judson taught from a zayat, taught while seated in the eastern style, not standing in the western fashion. Ann Judson took on typical Burmese dress during her time in Ava working to save her imprisoned husband’s life. It was said of Judson that he understood the Burmese people and culture as well as any person in the world. Additionally, the Judsons did not hesitate to raise up indigenous Christians who understood it was their task to evangelize their people, with some of their converts immediately understanding. He taught the Burmese leaders and took them on jungle preaching tours to give them first hand experience. (343) Finally, his employment and commendation of single women in the ministry was groundbreaking at the time and was utilized later by others as well."


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## Contra_Mundum (Oct 20, 2007)

Regeneration = new life

One is either alive, or not. So, that's an event, not a process.

But to say that there was nothing leading up to that--no work of God, no application of power--why would we ever feel like denying that? Clearly, no one who is "brought to life" ever goes back, he keeps on to perfection. God doesn't abort. I don't believe in the doctrine of "preparationism", that view that states that a person needs to get in some kind of "frame" or attitude or position, so that boom the Spirit can "go off" and shoot through him effectually (which is denied in the Confession anyway). I mean God's work beforehand. The sower sows the word--on a plowed field. Who plowed the field?

No analogy is perfect. So, I think there is some legitimacy in using the "birth analogy" (its even biblical), and when we observe something that "looks like" a spiritual abortion, a lifeless "birth" we acknowledge it for what it is. Like dealing with the reality of apostasy, that person never really had life. But, just the same, the Spirit was present, and his power was acting "in common", and there was a person who felt that power working "in the neighborhood". But there was no true "life" in him. And the Spirit's common operations eventually have no more effect. And the end result is a deadness, perhaps even more profound than before his effects were felt.

Have you ever stood beneath high voltage power lines with a fluorescent light bulb, and had it start to glow, no plug-ins, or anything? The light has no power source, it's not tied into the lines, but with a strong enough electrical field, the bulb will glow in sympathy. But its a dead bulb. But it's glowing anyway. Walk a few yards away and the bulb is as dead-dark as it ever was.


Other stuff. How do you know most aren't saved by preaching? OK, I'll gladly broaden the term, but honestly, Pentecost is the paradigm. Peter, Stephen, Philip, Paul show us how it is done. Ministry of the Word, publicly. And from house to house. And to individuals.

Would you rather speak to one, or to 10, or 100? What we'd rather do may not be what we get to do. If one is the only audience you can get, or is the only place to start, fine. Be ready to do it all. But until there is more than just one worker (you?) maybe one-to-one discipling is necessary to create the nucleus of leadership for a church, where later there can be preaching to hundreds at once.

Preaching is doing 1, 10, 20, or 100s of things at once. The Spirit is Active in preaching to all those elect in his orbit (and the non-elect to another purpose). He is regenerating, converting, and growing different people all at different rates at the same time, through our active participation in his work by the preaching of the gospel. Preaching, in that sense, is extremely efficient, and necessary to our well-being. And, since regeneration and conversion and even sanctification are *secret* (all of which are "salvation" in some sense), I don't know who is being effected or how.

Preaching has to do more with what is being taught, by whom (authority and office), than it does with precise manner. But preaching is still the open, verbal heralding of the message of the Master, in his name, by his appointed agent. Perhaps Judson had to learn a "culturally" acceptable manner of getting people to "see" him for what he was--a teacher sent from God--so that they would come and listen (humanly speaking). But there are places where the Word has to land and land and land and land, and those results are not coming in a single lifetime. And that's just a fact. But preaching isn't mere conversation. And it isn't a video tape or puppet show with a Bible story embedded.

But if you push accommodation beyond a certain point, the message gets compromised, and whatever the results "look like" (ooooh, fantastic!), in reality most of what springs up has no root, or is choked by the weeds. Preaching is "foolish". We need to embrace the "folly", because God's foolishness is wiser than our own great ideas.


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## 2 Tim 4:2 (Oct 20, 2007)

There is no reason that the definition of preaching the gospel should have ever been reduced to the pulpit. Preaching is the delivery of God's Word as He intended it. Opening up your Bible and sharing the gospel on the street with the lost is preaching whether you are an ordained Pastor or a laymen. 

It is impossible to come to faith without preaching. (Romans 10:17)


As far as a doctrne of seeking it is important to note that man cannot seek God on his own. God is and has always been the initiator since the garden. Men attempt to hide from God in their sin. (John 3:20, Genesis 3:8)


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## Pergamum (Oct 20, 2007)

Is question and answer sessions or conversation around a campfire then also preaching? How about tract and radio ministries? Or the truth being leavened throughout normal everyday covnersations? Where does preaching begin and end?


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## 2 Tim 4:2 (Feb 14, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> Is question and answer sessions or conversation around a campfire then also preaching? How about tract and radio ministries? Or the truth being leavened throughout normal everyday covnersations? Where does preaching begin and end?



With the correct delivery of the Word of God.


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## KMK (Feb 14, 2008)

2 Tim 4:2 said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > Is question and answer sessions or conversation around a campfire then also preaching? How about tract and radio ministries? Or the truth being leavened throughout normal everyday covnersations? Where does preaching begin and end?
> ...



I disagree. Preaching *begins* with commissioning and sending by God.



> Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!


If God did not send him, then he is not a preacher.

Perg: I don't know how you can know for a fact that *most* people are not regenerated due to sermon preaching. You assume that you know when everyone is regenerated. How could you possibly know that? Do you base it on testimony? Well every stony soil and thorny soil person has a testimony. That does not mean that they are regenerated. It seems to me your whole premise is unprovable.

However, I will admit that you have a great deal more experience than I, brother.


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## Pergamum (Feb 15, 2008)

2 Tim 4:2 said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > Is question and answer sessions or conversation around a campfire then also preaching? How about tract and radio ministries? Or the truth being leavened throughout normal everyday covnersations? Where does preaching begin and end?
> ...



Then this would mean that perhaps half of of all "preaching" is done by women.


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## Pergamum (Feb 15, 2008)

KMK said:


> 2 Tim 4:2 said:
> 
> 
> > Pergamum said:
> ...


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## Grymir (Feb 15, 2008)

Pergamum, you are right about most peoples conversions not taking place in the church. But I take it from your equipping local evangelist posts you are not in America. I can only speak for here. 'Preaching' proper was in front of a group or church. It used to be that every Sunday the gospel was preached in church's across the land. Now most church's get self-help sermons, even in my church. That has caused a change from what we used to see (well, I only read about it in history and from good teachers). The Gospel used to be 'preached' more in Church's than the 'street', but now it is reversed. So your observations are probably correct. Just my 2 cents.


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## Pergamum (Feb 15, 2008)

Yes, I am in a different context, but I fear that church is becoming too formalized and institutionalized. I long for good preaching to occur in the church and good witnessing to go on outside the church. Sundays are only 1 day in seven and the rest of the week the congregants ought to be about the Lord's work Gospelling to their neighbors. 

We often stress the role of preaching as the main means of the conversion of the world and then narrowly define it as the activity of a few in the context of a few places. Witnessing is the means of evangelization and preaching is one form of that witness.


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## KMK (Feb 15, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> It seems like very many people are saved OUT of the church.



Salvation is not necessarily an event but a process. 



> LBC 10:1 Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.



Are you saying that all of these things *usually* take place outside His body?



> LBC 14:3. This faith, although it be different in degrees, and may be weak or strong, yet it is in the least degree of it different in the kind or nature of it, as is all other saving grace, from the faith and common grace of temporary believers; and therefore,* though it may be many times assailed and weakened, yet it gets the victory, growing up in many to the attainment of a full assurance through Christ, who is both the author and finisher of our faith.
> *



Can a man's faith be assailed and weakened and yet get the victory all upon one event in the man's life?

Again, I defer to your experience, but I just don't understand how you could make such a bold statement. How do you know when someone else is saved? Because they give a testimony? Testimonies are not necessarily a gauge.



> LBC 14:2. By this faith *1)* a Christian believeth to be true whatsoever is revealed in the Word for the authority of God himself, and also *2)* apprehendeth an excellency therein above all other writings and all things in the world, as it bears forth the glory of God in his attributes, the excellency of Christ in his nature and offices, and the power and fullness of the Holy Spirit in his workings and operations: and so *3)* is enabled to cast his soul upon the truth thus believed; and also *4)* acteth differently upon that which each particular passage thereof containeth; *5)* yielding obedience to the commands, *6)* trembling at the threatenings, and *7)* embracing the promises of God for this life and that which is to come; but the principal acts of saving faith have immediate relation to Christ, *8)* accepting, *9)* receiving, and *10)* resting upon him alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace.



Saving faith is demonstrated by the things mentioned above. How could all of these things be revealed in a man's life at one event? To my mind these things would be revealed over a period of time.



Pergamum said:


> We are church centered and pulpit centered and this makes us think that evangelism is a specialty activity of a few specialists who do the evangelizing. It is good to be church-centered, but this sometimes muffles the voice and the activities of the layman.



Wow! Where I live I would say just the opposite! There seems to be no revrance for the pulpit and most resources are pumped into parachurch organizations or 'ministries' in the church that have nothing to do with the pulpit, with prayer, or with mercy.



Pergamum said:


> It appears that much, if not most, evangelization, occurs through personal and private witness and is not done in the church during the preaching hour and not by the pastor.



I don't even know what the word 'evangelization' means any more. But if you are saying that everyone in the church is responsible for planting, watering and harvesting then I would agree. But that's just it, when a man is converted and bears fruit, who gets the credit? What if the seed was planted in a man years ago by a sermon he heard and then later watered by the witnessing of his spouse and then later converted by reading Ps 22? Which one is credited with the conversion? You seem to want to credit one particular person but how can you do that? It is God that gives the increase.

BTW, the above testimony is my own. People ask me when I was saved. I know what they are asking but I do not know how to answer. I was and am being saved by the Spirit and Word. And I pray that I will continue to be saved and that the author of my faith will finish it.


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## Pergamum (Feb 21, 2008)

KMK;

Good thoughts. Yes, you sound correct. 

Regeneration often takes place outside the church walls, but there seems not to be any way for sanctification to occur apart from Christ's corporate body. Therefore, the salvation process is intimately linked with teh church, eventhough regeneration and conversion often occurs with no regard to the corporate body.

Thanks for further light on this.


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## KMK (Feb 22, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> Regeneration often takes place outside the church walls...



We are probably talking past each other at this point, but I still do not understand what you mean by this. How could you possibly know this? How do you, Pergie, know when and where a man has been regenerated? Are you basing this on your experience in the mission field where people have come to the faith in the absense of any organized church?


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## Pergamum (Feb 22, 2008)

KMK: Yes.

Also, I have seen it quite often in the West as well.

Of course, how can I know, or anyone. But a lot of people do seem to experience the complex of regeneration and conversion outside of the church, and then later find a church...


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## KMK (Feb 22, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> KMK: Yes.
> 
> Also, I have seen it quite often in the West as well.
> 
> Of course, how can I know, or anyone. But a lot of people do seem to experience the complex of regeneration and conversion outside of the church, and then later find a church...



I bow to your experience, brother. I don't think that I can agree with you based on your experience, however. The Bible is pretty clear about faith coming by hearing preaching by preachers who are sent by God... Much to ponder. 

If your are saying that people come to faith by hearing preaching in other times than Sunday morning at 10:00 am, then that is one thing. But that does not mean they came to faith 'outside' the church. The church is a body that exists 24/7. Obviously, if we take Rom 10 at face value, if someone has come to faith it was because God sent them a preacher. Maybe it was at 12:30 pm outside the local Hooters, but it was still preaching.


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## Pergamum (Feb 23, 2008)

Yes, exactly. How can they hear is there is no preacher? But many preachers are not restricted to the church or on Sunday.

Also, I am trying to explore the limits of this word preaching, because quite a few are saved by the witness of women....what are we to make of that? Is there then a difference between evangelism, preaching, proclaiming and lay witness?


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## Pilgrim (Feb 24, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> Yes, I am in a different context, but I fear that church is becoming too formalized and institutionalized. I long for good preaching to occur in the church and good witnessing to go on outside the church. Sundays are only 1 day in seven and the rest of the week the congregants ought to be about the Lord's work Gospelling to their neighbors.
> 
> We often stress the role of preaching as the main means of the conversion of the world and then narrowly define it as the activity of a few in the context of a few places. Witnessing is the means of evangelization and preaching is one form of that witness.



I really can't see how someone could think that the church is becoming too formalized and institutionalized compared to even 15-20 years ago unless your only base of reference is the PB. Informality is the rule today.


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## Pergamum (Feb 24, 2008)

Pilgrim said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, I am in a different context, but I fear that church is becoming too formalized and institutionalized. I long for good preaching to occur in the church and good witnessing to go on outside the church. Sundays are only 1 day in seven and the rest of the week the congregants ought to be about the Lord's work Gospelling to their neighbors.
> ...




Ah, yes..but it is programmed informality! People gets degrees that focus on relating to people than them intentionally make an appearance of informality....all the while this approach is "programmed" by "professionals" and even the evangelism is down on a few hours on a tuesday night, etc, and not the spontanous overflow from a Christian's life in all their circumstances...


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## Pilgrim (Feb 25, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> Pilgrim said:
> 
> 
> > Pergamum said:
> ...



Good point.


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## KMK (Feb 25, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> Yes, exactly. How can they hear is there is no preacher? But many preachers are not restricted to the church or on Sunday.
> 
> Also, I am trying to explore the limits of this word preaching,* because quite a few are saved by the witness of women.*...what are we to make of that? Is there then a difference between evangelism, preaching, proclaiming and lay witness?



Someone else is going to have to answer your question, brother, because I do not necessarily agree with your premise. I still don't understand how you or anyone else can know for a fact that "quite a few are saved by the witness of women."


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## Pergamum (Feb 25, 2008)

Quite a few trace their conversion back to hearing the Gospel from friends, family and wives...


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## KMK (Feb 26, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> Quite a few trace their conversion back to hearing the Gospel from friends, family and wives...



The Bible says that many think they are converted and are not. The Bible also teaches that many enjoy some kind of conversion but eventually fall away. Bottom line is you can't trust the confessions of all men.

I don't think we should use the testimonies of men to overturn the clear teaching of Scripture. Perhaps there is another explanation. 

For example, a man may have the gospel planted in his soul by a preacher sent by God. But many years later the testimony of friend waters that gospel seed and, finally, after many years, brings forth fruit worthy of repentance. Then the man gets himself into a church that 'harvests' the man's soul.

Now, it is very possible that this man would give glory to the testimony of the friend as being responsible for his conversion 'experience'. In fact, he may look with _disdain _upon the preaching of the gospel that he had heard many years before because it did not bear any immediate fruit. But ultimately what the man thinks his experience is, is irrelevant. The Bible teaches that although many may 'water' the seed along the way, ordinarily men are converted by the preaching of men sent by God.


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## Pergamum (Feb 26, 2008)

KMK: Hmm..okay, I got nothing against what you just said. 

I still see no problem with a man being converted by private encounter with the Word or by the casual conversation with a friend. The NT examples are not exhaustive about "how" someone converts. But your emphasis on preaching cannot be faulted.


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## KMK (Feb 26, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> KMK: Hmm..okay, I got nothing against what you just said.
> 
> *I still see no problem with a man being converted by private encounter with the Word or by the casual conversation with a friend*. The NT examples are not exhaustive about "how" someone converts. But your emphasis on preaching cannot be faulted.



And I have no argument against what you say about the _possibility_ of "a man being converted by a private encounter with the Word or by the casual conversation with a friend." After all, even Balaam experienced some form of repentance when rebuked by a donkey! 

What I cannot agree with is your assertion in the OP that _most_ people are converted without the preaching of a man sent by God. Especially when your assertion is based on human testimony.


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