# The roman catholic crucifix and and the simple Protestant cross



## dudley

I believe as a Presbyterian Protestant that images of Christ are in violation of the 2nd commandment. As Protestants and Presbyterians we have only the symbol of the empty cross which represents Christ’s redemptive act on Calvary and the Easter message that He is now risen from that earthy crucifixion and has become glorified in a risen body which incorporates his two natures human and divine. Any earthly recreation of what Jesus might have looked like can not be accurate by the Chalcedon Council decree in 451 because in such an image it is not possible to portray the two distinct natures of God and Man in one Person. To me the roman catholic crucifix and the eastern orthodox images of Christ on the cross misinterpret the true message of the Gospel, that He is risen and lives no more to die. The simple Protestant cross does exemplify the message and does not violate the second commandment.

What are your thoughts on this ?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Galatians220

Well, of course, I believe you are right, Dudley. I will leave it to the gentlemen to reply in detail if/as they wish to do so.


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## BobVigneault

I'm not happy with the empty cross either. No where in Scripture are we told to use that instument of execution as a focus point for worship. It too easily becomes a substitute point of contact for worshippers and can become an idol for that reason. I'm happier without the symbol.


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## Tim

I agree with Bob. There is no imperative in scripture for using the cross as a symbol. We speak of the cross, and what it means, as Paul did, but the symbol we are to use is the bread and wine of the Lord's Supper. This is the Biblically commanded and approved visual symbol. The care with which the pastor/elder administers the Lord's Supper (i.e., to not partake unworthily) seeks to prevent the people from cheaply clinging to the symbol and making it an idol.


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## BobVigneault

That's exactly what I would have said Tim if I was more patient, could organize my thoughts better and was smarter. Well said.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

BobVigneault said:


> I'm not happy with the empty cross either. No where in Scripture are we told to use that instument of execution as a focus point for worship. It too easily becomes a substitute point of contact for worshippers and can become an idol for that reason. I'm happier without the symbol.





This is why we do not have one in our sanctuary.


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## jwithnell

Glad to know I'm not just being hyper with my no-cross preference -- even without the figure of Christ, the cross keeps the focus on the sacrifice rather than on the risen and ascended savior. I suspect it's a piece of Romanism that's just never really gone away. However, I do think its a matter of liberty in one's personal life, but that it really doesn't belong in worship.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Had an interesting conversation recently when I had the local liberal United Methodist pastor and his family over at the manse for dinner he was genuinely worried/shocked that I had no crosses (stylized or otherwise) and no pictures of Jesus and/or religious symbols in my home.


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## J Miles

BobVigneault said:


> I'm not happy with the empty cross either. No where in Scripture are we told to use that instument of execution as a focus point for worship. It too easily becomes a substitute point of contact for worshippers and can become an idol for that reason. I'm happier without the symbol.



^This.
People can often focus on the visible cross portrayed, even with an empty cross, and imagine some form of deity is depicted by it. For this reason it could be harmful.
Besides, what does an visible portrayal of the cross teach that scripture cannot teach far better?

I understand the argument based on the fact that as Christ is risen, we do not need to portray him dead on a cross. The use of images, however, often leads to far to much superstition to be considered useful in a earth where carnal objects gain so much licentious affection from being considered divine. For this reason if the cross is to be used at all it should be used with extreme discretion, in order that it remains only a symbol. This discretion would probably prevent it from used in a Church, or even to represent a Church. 

We must remember that God prohibits all representations of him, as his majesty is too great to be depicted in a cross or any other object or image, and that any such depiction is a distraction to worship.


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## BobVigneault

Fascinating Pastor Ben, I thought that all United Methodist pastors were lesbians. Your friend is married with a family, radical.


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## raekwon

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Had an interesting conversation recently when I had the local liberal United Methodist pastor and his family over at the manse for dinner he was genuinely worried/shocked that I had no crosses (stylized or otherwise) and no pictures of Jesus and/or religious symbols in my home.



Hah. I would've loved to have been a fly on the wall for that.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

raekwon said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> 
> Had an interesting conversation recently when I had the local liberal United Methodist pastor and his family over at the manse for dinner he was genuinely worried/shocked that I had no crosses (stylized or otherwise) and no pictures of Jesus and/or religious symbols in my home.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hah. I would've loved to have been a fly on the wall for that.
Click to expand...


lol...I am a harmless little fuzzball in person.


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## jwithnell

Let me guess; if you don't have crosses in your house or depictions of the deity, you haven't joined the conversation, are not interested in a faith journey, don't have the present reality of Christ in your life, and are not part of the community of faith ....


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## Andres

BobVigneault said:


> Fascinating Pastor Ben, I thought that all United Methodist pastors were lesbians. Your friend is married with a family, radical.


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## Rufus

I don't see any particular problems with crosses because it reminds of what Jesus has done. However, like some pointed out they shouldn't be worshipped somehow (I don't know anyone that does think like that personally). In my churches sanctuary there is a painting of a cross on the back wall behind the pulpit and it's never really been a distraction.


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## dudley

Tim said:


> I agree with Bob. There is no imperative in scripture for using the cross as a symbol. We speak of the cross, and what it means, as Paul did, but the symbol we are to use is the bread and wine of the Lord's Supper. This is the Biblically commanded and approved visual symbol. The care with which the pastor/elder administers the Lord's Supper (i.e., to not partake unworthily) seeks to prevent the people from cheaply clinging to the symbol and making it an idol.



Tim, I agree with you and the others. Since I have left the Roman catholic church and since becoming a Reformed Presbyterian Protestant I have discarded whatever crucifixes I had as well as rosaries and other catholic paraphernalia that detract from the center point of the Gospel. Instead I now want the Word and Spirit, living and active in our hearts and lives, families and congregations, not man made symbols. 

I also agree with you that "The care with which the pastor/elder administers the Lord's Supper (i.e., to not partake unworthily) seeks to prevent the people from cheaply clinging to the symbol and making it an idol." I know all too well having been a roman catholic how the Lords Supper can become also an idol of worship. The rc's make a blasphemy of the Lords Supper by worshipping the piece of bread they incorrectly believe has actually become the real body of Christ inside a Gold Monstrance. I found the practice repulsive and repugnant even while I was still a Roman catholic , now having undergone by the grace of God a ’true Protestant conversion” as John Calvin did I find the practice of worshipping the bread wafer a complete abomination . I therefore also agree with Jacob Miles when he said "I understand the argument based on the fact that as Christ is risen, we do not need to portray him dead on a cross. The use of images, however, often leads to far to much superstition to be considered useful in a earth where carnal objects gain so much licentious affection from being considered divine. For this reason if the cross is to be used at all it should be used with extreme discretion, in order that it remains only a symbol. This discretion would probably prevent it from used in a Church, or even to represent a Church.”


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## earl40

Ok try this.
.
Jesus ON THE CROSS
Jesus ON THE CROSS
Jesus ON THE CROSS
Jesus ON THE CROSS
Jesus ON THE CROSS
Jesus ON THE CROSS
.
.
.
.
.
Now what did you just imagine?


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## dudley

earl40 said:


> Ok try this.
> .
> Jesus ON THE CROSS
> Jesus ON THE CROSS
> Jesus ON THE CROSS
> Jesus ON THE CROSS
> Jesus ON THE CROSS
> Jesus ON THE CROSS
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> Now what did you just imagine?



Good point Earl but leave it to the mind of the individual to encompass what God is to them and what Jesus is to them...let it be a personal relationship based on the Gospel and the scriptures...I could be wrong ....but as a Protestant I do think at this time I want to concentrate on the Word and Spirit, living and active in my heart and life, not man made symbols. I had too many images presented to me growing up as a catholic; as a Protestant I want to be free of those entrapping images which can become idolatrous and lead to many gross superstitions. I want to know the Christ of the Gospel and the bible , not an image as Roman Catholicism seems to prefer. I am a Protestant now not any longer a Roman catholic.


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## Whitefield

BobVigneault said:


> Fascinating Pastor Ben, I thought that all United Methodist pastors were lesbians. Your friend is married with a family, radical.



Truly amazing, and even more amazing is that not all United Methodist pastors are liberal.


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## BobVigneault

And I thank God that there are missionaries like you Pastor Lance, who will stay and preach to a wayward denomination. Blessings to you. 

My best friend from my teen years became a pastor in the UMC and we have never discussed where his theology and worldview lie since we have grown up. I think I'm afraid to ask. I pray he's like you. I should give him the benefit of the doubt, shouldn't I?


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## JoannaV

J Miles said:


> For this reason if the cross is to be used at all it should be used with extreme discretion, in order that it remains only a symbol.



Agreed.

I don't think our churches _should_ just have white walls. But too much of mainstream evangelical Christianity seems to be heading in the opposite direction. Even the PCA church we attended for a year projected a giant picture of Jesus onto the wall


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## kvanlaan

How do you wear a bread and wine pendant?


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## dudley

kvanlaan said:


> How do you wear a bread and wine pendant?



Amen brother Kevin! I have no problem if some one wanted to wear a cross. I personally refrain from the practice because Of my disdain and dislike for so many Roman catholic superstitions. As a Protestant I reject the practice of wearing religious medals.


Catholics actually believe that Anyone who comes to death while wearing the roman catholic scapular or miraculous medal will have the surety that he has faithfully praised, trusted and loved Mary, can be also sure that he will not be eternally lost. Such is the doctrine of the Church. 

You see the rcc even here turns one away from the true message of salvation in the Gospel. That we are saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ. Every thing about Roman Catholicism turns one away from the true message of salvation. 

That is again another reason why I renounce Roman Catholicism and her superstitious practices. I am today a Protestant and I do not need these foolish practices for my salvation .I need the Gospel and My faith alone In Christ alone will save me, nothing else that I may do or merit can save me.

Romanism is the greatest system of Idolatry in existence today. Her poor spiritually blind dupes worship the Saints, angels, images, relics, even the wafer at the Mass. Never again will I bow to such vile superstition, never again will I worship anything other than the one true and living God, and for that reason I am proud to be Protestant.


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## earl40

dudley said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok try this.
> .
> Jesus ON THE CROSS
> Jesus ON THE CROSS
> Jesus ON THE CROSS
> Jesus ON THE CROSS
> Jesus ON THE CROSS
> Jesus ON THE CROSS
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> Now what did you just imagine?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good point Earl but leave it to the mind of the individual to encompass what God is to them and what Jesus is to them...let it be a personal relationship based on the Gospel and the scriptures...I could be wrong ....but as a Protestant I do think at this time I want to concentrate on the Word and Spirit, living and active in my heart and life, not man made symbols. I had too many images presented to me growing up as a catholic; as a Protestant I want to be free of those entrapping images which can become idolatrous and lead to many gross superstitions. I want to know the Christ of the Gospel and the bible , not an image as Roman Catholicism seems to prefer. I am a Protestant now not any longer a Roman catholic.
Click to expand...


As a former RC turned "rabid" protestant I see why you feel this way. Though I do not have a problem with a "generic" Jesus symbol hanging on a cross being displayed. When I drive by any church and see a cross displayed I can not help but think of what He did for us and personally I am humble almost every time I see such.

Blessings.


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## Rufus

earl40 said:


> As a former RC turned "rabid" protestant I see why you feel this way. Though I do not have a problem with a "generic" Jesus symbol hanging on a cross being displayed. When I drive by any church and see a cross displayed I can not help but think of what He did for us and personally I am humble almost every time I see such.



Ya I feel the same way when I see a cross.


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## J Miles

dudley said:


> kvanlaan said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do you wear a bread and wine pendant?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amen brother Kevin! I have no problem if some one wanted to wear a cross. I personally refrain from the practice because Of my disdain and dislike for so many Roman catholic superstitions. As a Protestant I reject the practice of wearing religious medals.
> 
> 
> Catholics actually believe that Anyone who comes to death while wearing the roman catholic scapular or miraculous medal will have the surety that he has faithfully praised, trusted and loved Mary, can be also sure that he will not be eternally lost. Such is the doctrine of the Church.
> 
> You see the rcc even here turns one away from the true message of salvation in the Gospel. That we are saved by faith alone in Jesus Christ. Every thing about Roman Catholicism turns one away from the true message of salvation.
> 
> That is again another reason why I renounce Roman Catholicism and her superstitious practices. I am today a Protestant and I do not need these foolish practices for my salvation .I need the Gospel and My faith alone In Christ alone will save me, nothing else that I may do or merit can save me.
> 
> Romanism is the greatest system of Idolatry in existence today. Her poor spiritually blind dupes worship the Saints, angels, images, relics, even the wafer at the Mass. Never again will I bow to such vile superstition, never again will I worship anything other than the one true and living God, and for that reason I am proud to be Protestant.
Click to expand...




No creation of man can ever be thought to posses supernatural or spiritial power, and because of the work the Christ had done it is even more absurd to say that we can be saved by what is made by the hands of men. Our faith is in Christ, not in trinckets of medal or wood.

The use of a cross as a symbol is differnt, so long as we remeber that it does not house a special power.



earl40 said:


> As a former RC turned "rabid" protestant I see why you feel this way. Though I do not have a problem with a "generic" Jesus symbol hanging on a cross being displayed. When I drive by any church and see a cross displayed I can not help but think of what He did for us and personally I am humble almost every time I see such.



If feel the same as well. 



JoannaV said:


> I don't think our churches should just have white walls. But too much of mainstream evangelical Christianity seems to be heading in the opposite direction. Even the PCA church we attended for a year projected a giant picture of Jesus onto the wall



Agreed. My church has a very large cross that reaches to the roof. Rufus' has a small painting behind pulpit. Thats a big differnce.


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## "William The Baptist"

BobVigneault said:


> I'm not happy with the empty cross either. No where in Scripture are we told to use that instument of execution as a focus point for worship. It too easily becomes a substitute point of contact for worshippers and can become an idol for that reason. I'm happier without the symbol.


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## Pilgrim

BobVigneault said:


> Fascinating Pastor Ben, I thought that all United Methodist pastors were lesbians. Your friend is married with a family, radical.



Well, it is rural South Mississippi after all. Even the United Methodists there might not go for that even if the gospel it its most rudimentary form may not have been preached in a particular congregation for generations. May there be more of Rev. Marshall's tribe among them.

---------- Post added at 07:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:02 PM ----------




Tim said:


> I agree with Bob. There is no imperative in scripture for using the cross as a symbol. We speak of the cross, and what it means, as Paul did, but the symbol we are to use is the bread and wine of the Lord's Supper. This is the Biblically commanded and approved visual symbol. The care with which the pastor/elder administers the Lord's Supper (i.e., to not partake unworthily) seeks to prevent the people from cheaply clinging to the symbol and making it an idol.



I agree. And this is a very interesting quote. I wonder if it could be said that a cross or crucifix is to the Lord's Supper what the "altar call" or "invitation" is to baptism (or a public profession of faith from the Presbyterian/Reformed viewpoint.)


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## Sviata Nich

I like the cross as a symbol. No where in scripture is it prohibited. Augustine didn't have a problem with it. I don't think Calvin had a problem with using the cross as symbol (look at the Cathedral he preached in). The Huguenots even made their own design of the cross, so as far as I'm concerned its a part of reformed heritage. 

The fact that the cross can be made into an idol or distraction should not deter us from using it, rather, it just another example of how depraved and how much of an idol factory the human heart is. If we are out to rid ourselves of all distractions in worship, then away with pianos and organs, away with suits and fancy dresses, away with carpets and electric lights, I bet our hearts could even make idol out of a pew or chair, so away them also.


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## dudley

Keith, thank you have made a very good point. I have no problem with the simple wooden cross. However it is all the other paraphernalia of the Romanists that I have a problem with.


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## dudley

*We must throw away the images of the devil!*



Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Had an interesting conversation recently when I had the local liberal United Methodist pastor and his family over at the manse for dinner he was genuinely worried/shocked that I had no crosses (stylized or otherwise) and no pictures of Jesus and/or religious symbols in my home.


 
I told Keith in an earlier message that I think he made a very good point. And said I have no problem with the simple wooden cross. However it is all the other paraphernalia of the Romanists that I have a problem with.

I have given this some further thought and wish to share those thoughts with you and others here on the PB. Ben I also have no stylized crosses and definitely no crucifix and no pictures of Jesus and/or religious symbols in my home. I discarded all those paraphernalia of the Romanists since I became a Protestant. 

I do however display the Bibles I have openly on my Bookshelf in my living room. Next to the Bibles I do have a simple little Protestant cross. 

Having been a Roman catholic and now a convert to the Reformed faith and Protestantism I am very leery of any images that would take away or destroy the simple message of salvation which Christ gave to all who place their faith in Him alone.

As a catholic I was presented with many images. the crucified and dead Christ on the cross was and is still the center of attention in every Roman catholic church. Also in many of these churches are statues of the Blessed Mother and other saints. Vatican II made an emphasis to remove much of these superfluous and false images of the church. However in recent years and especially since the election of Joseph Ratzinger as their pope the reforms of Vatican II are slowly being put aside and these images are being returned to the churches along now with the Latin mass. 

As a person who was once a Roman catholic and has experienced a conversion to the truth of the Gospel and is now a Protestant I am fearful of such images and what I believe is the inspiration of the devil himself to distort and destroy Christ’s simple message of salvation which is " Christ died once for us". The simple wooden Protestant cross I think demonstrates that message; the crucifix of the Romanists and the papist church emphasizes the dead and suffering Christ where the sacrifice continues and the victory of Christ over death for all is misconstrued and distorted to bring doubt and loss of faith and hope of salvation to so many. 

It is the subliminal and unconscious message that is conveyed by Satan to destroy the true message of salvation. Satan would like to have two images of Christ before us constantly. The infant babe, being looked after by His mother and the dead Christ on the cross, as this shows Satan’s temporary victory. However, Christ is neither of these. Christ was raised victoriously from the dead. He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He is very much alive and by His death on the cross He destroyed Satan.

The simple wooden Protestant cross does to me demonstrate the true message of salvation. 

However the other images of the Romanists must be avoided or we too will fall into the same trap the Romanists live in.

1 Corinthians 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils:
ye cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table, and of the table of devils.

We must throw away the images of the devil which are so many of the false images presented to all in the Roman catholic church.

We are Protestants and we must convey to the world and proclaim the truth of the Gospel, we must never join with the false message of the Romanists which is given by wearing or showing the images that destroy the true message of salvation. 

I will never forget I am now a Protestant and as a Protestant I will protest against any message or image that will attempt to destroy the message of salvation and as a Protestant I will stand firm for the truth.


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## christiana

A friend once gave me a rather large beautiful wrought iron cross and I put it on my wall. Before so long others followed that by giving me crosses as gifts, all kind, all colors until my wall is covered with beautiful crosses. I have had many discussions about them as I have so strongly objected to drawings of Christ as being a breach of the second commandment. At times I think I should remove all the crosses from my wall. I do not worship them and they are reminders of His sacrifice for me. In truth I would prefer the old rugged cross instead of the beautifully crafted crosses on my wall.


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## dudley

christiana said:


> A friend once gave me a rather large beautiful wrought iron cross and I put it on my wall. Before so long others followed that by giving me crosses as gifts, all kind, all colors until my wall is covered with beautiful crosses. I have had many discussions about them as I have so strongly objected to drawings of Christ as being a breach of the second commandment. At times I think I should remove all the crosses from my wall. I do not worship them and they are reminders of His sacrifice for me. In truth I would prefer the old rugged cross instead of the beautifully crafted crosses on my wall.



Cristiana, you need not nor do I believe should you remove the crosses form your wall. As you say "I do not worship them and they are reminders of His sacrifice for me". There is no problem with that and having a collection of crosses that you cherish because of the friendship they represent with different people who gave you the crosses. They should remain part of who you are as a person and I think part of your home. 

As long as they are reminders of Christ’s redemption for you and all they are fine…I have no problem with the simple cross of salvation.

Heb. 9: 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.


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## BobVigneault

Oh, and speaking of United Methodists, Pastor Lance, I can't forget William Willimon. I love THAT guy! And HE'S not a lesbian.


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