# Grad School Help! Reformed Theological Seminary vs. Biola's Talbot School of Theology



## IveGotQuestions (Jun 27, 2020)

Hi y'all!

I am pursuing a *M.A. in Theological Studies* and have been accepted to RTS and Talbot. I am currently serving in the military and will be completing this degree online.

A little background on my ministry goals. I was a Behavioral Science major with a minor in Religion Studies in College. I developed a strong passion for the study of theology and how individuals process and apply it in their lives. My ministry objective is to serve others through psychology. I intend to pursue a Ph.D. in clinical psychology following the completion of my Master’s of Theological Studies. I firmly believe that faith plays a crucial role in the healing process. A sound biblical foundation will allow me not only to minister to an individual’s mental health but also to their spiritual health. I seek to help people work through some of the most challenging times in their lives while offering them spiritual knowledge that influences their understanding and guides their decisions and actions. I am also interested in keeping the door open on teaching at the university level in the future.

I am looking for a school that will provide me a strong biblical foundation and challenges me academically.

I have done some research online about each school and both have shown up on a few lists of top schools. I feel a bit ignorant about how each is perceived in the community and I would appreciate any advice, experience with either school, pros/cons, the major difference I may be overlooking, etc.

Thank you for your help!


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## arapahoepark (Jun 27, 2020)

RTS for a specially Reformed schooling. I know that, at least, their Jackson campus is integrationist with regard to Biblical counseling. Are you sure you can't move there? Its cheap and you could buy a home.
As for Talbot, I haven't a clue.

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## Romans922 (Jun 27, 2020)

Talbot is liberal...


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## Charles Johnson (Jun 28, 2020)

Biola is pentecostal.


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## bookslover (Jun 28, 2020)

I graduated from Talbot in 1994 with the M.Div. It is neither liberal (Andrew!) nor Pentecostal (Charles!). Talbot, as with Biola generally, is broadly evangelical and conservative. It is not hostile to Reformed thought, generally speaking. In fact, my church history professor, Alan Gomes, is Reformed. I think he might be retired now, or getting close. Historically (Talbot was founded in 1952), the school was in the Classic Dispensationalism camp (2nd generation dispensationalist - Ryrie, Walvoord, et al). However, due to the influence of the late Robert L. Saucy (1930-2015), who taught systematic theology there from 1961 until his death, the school can be described, starting in the 1990s, as being in the Progressive Dispensationalism camp.

Biola has an excellent library (which Talbot shares, as the two schools are on the same campus). I've been prowling that library (founded in 1908, as was Biola) for many years, and there is a lot of Reformed stuff there. It has at least two sets of Bavinck's _Reformed Dogmatics_ on its shelves, for example.

During my time there, dispensationalism (of whatever stripe) was _never_ brought up in the classroom - even in the theology classes. So, the school is officially dispensationalist, but they don't make a big deal about it.

I think you would get a good, solid, conservative education there, but you would have to pretty much study Reformed theology on your own. If you want an explicitly Reformed education, go to RTS (or elsewhere).

Also, as to your psychological interests, the Rosemead School of Psychology has been one of Biola's schools for several decades now, although I can't vouch for their education or training programs.

Hope this helps.

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## KMK (Jun 28, 2020)

Charles Johnson said:


> Biola is pentecostal.



Why do you say this?


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## Romans922 (Jun 28, 2020)

Talbot is not a reformed seminary. That which is not reformed is not biblical, hence, liberal. Evangelical, yes. Reformed and Biblical, no. There are many more better seminaries out there.

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## RamistThomist (Jun 28, 2020)

Depends on which RTS it is and on what you want to do in life. Do you want to teach at the post-grad level? Then I would lean towards Talbots. Also, what do you want to study and teach? High octane philosophical theology, then go to Talbots. 

What kind of PhD program do you plan to get into? That also might limit it.

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## Charles Johnson (Jun 28, 2020)

KMK said:


> Why do you say this?


Looks like I was mistaken. Their statement of faith is pretty clearly dispensationalist evangelical.


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## IveGotQuestions (Jun 28, 2020)

bookslover said:


> I graduated from Talbot in 1994 with the M.Div. It is neither liberal (Andrew!) nor Pentecostal (Charles!). Talbot, as with Biola generally, is broadly evangelical and conservative. It is not hostile to Reformed thought, generally speaking. In fact, my church history professor, Alan Gomes, is Reformed. I think he might be retired now, or getting close. Historically (Talbot was founded in 1952), the school was in the Classic Dispensationalism camp (2nd generation dispensationalist - Ryrie, Walvoord, et al). However, due to the influence of the late Robert L. Saucy (1930-2015), who taught systematic theology there from 1961 until his death, the school can be described, starting in the 1990s, as being in the Progressive Dispensationalism camp.
> 
> Biola has an excellent library (which Talbot shares, as the two schools are on the same campus). I've been prowling that library (founded in 1908, as was Biola) for many years, and there is a lot of Reformed stuff there. It has at least two sets of Bavinck's _Reformed Dogmatics_ on its shelves, for example.
> 
> ...



Thank you for this insight. It helps a lot!


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## IveGotQuestions (Jun 28, 2020)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Depends on which RTS it is and on what you want to do in life. Do you want to teach at the post-grad level? Then I would lean towards Talbots. Also, what do you want to study and teach? High octane philosophical theology, then go to Talbots.
> 
> What kind of PhD program do you plan to get into? That also might limit it.



It is RTS Global and I would want to teach courses related to religious studies. I have already discussed this and requirements/details with the school I would want to teach at and they have had few people follow a similar path with an online theology degree and then the department-sponsored them later on for Ph.D.

I am looking at just pursuing a Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology. Would attending one of these schools limit my ability?


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## IveGotQuestions (Jun 28, 2020)

arapahoepark said:


> RTS for a specially Reformed schooling. I know that, at least, their Jackson campus is integrationist with regard to Biblical counseling. Are you sure you can't move there? Its cheap and you could buy a home.
> As for Talbot, I haven't a clue.



I definitely won't be able to move but have heard really good things about the RTS Global education and flexibility which is a Pro for me.


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## RamistThomist (Jun 28, 2020)

IveGotQuestions said:


> I am looking at just pursuing a Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology. Would attending one of these schools limit my ability?



That depends on what kind of school you would go to for your PhD. I don't know that a clinical psychology school would want a theology degree.


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## IveGotQuestions (Jun 28, 2020)

BayouHuguenot said:


> That depends on what kind of school you would go to for your PhD. I don't know that a clinical psychology school would want a theology degree.



I understand what you are saying. I don't believe that this degree will hinder me in that way, by any means. In fact, I think, if done well, the completion of a master's degree will help demonstrate my academic ability to succeed in a Ph.D. program. I didn't put my full career goals here but this theology degree aligns itself with the type of services I would like to offer. Thank you for your insight.


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## RamistThomist (Jun 28, 2020)

IveGotQuestions said:


> I understand what you are saying. I don't believe that this degree will hinder me in that way, by any means. In fact, I think, if done well, the completion of a master's degree will help demonstrate my academic ability to succeed in a Ph.D. program. I didn't put my full career goals here but this theology degree aligns itself with the type of services I would like to offer. Thank you for your insight.



So what kind of job do you see yourself working at?


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## RamistThomist (Jun 28, 2020)

I always recommend people work through these articles on grad school.





So You Want to Go to Grad School: Choosing Schools (1) – James K. A. Smith







jameskasmith.com

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## bookslover (Jun 28, 2020)

Charles Johnson said:


> Looks like I was mistaken. Their statement of faith is pretty clearly dispensationalist evangelical.



Yes, historically, Talbot has been hostile to the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement.


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## bookslover (Jun 28, 2020)

Romans922 said:


> Talbot is not a reformed seminary. That which is not reformed is not biblical, hence, liberal. Evangelical, yes. Reformed and Biblical, no. There are many more better seminaries out there.



A school that is not Reformed is automatically liberal? But, you admit that a school that is not Reformed can still be Evangelical. Evangelical schools tend to be conservative in their theology, not liberal. I don't know too many PCUSA schools, for example, that could be called Evangelical - but they *are* liberal. You're painting with rather a wide brush, Andrew.

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## Pilgrim (Jun 28, 2020)

bookslover said:


> Yes, historically, Talbot has been hostile to the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement.



Probably not to the same extent now as before. The Southern Baptists aren't really so hostile to it anymore either. 

I vaguely remember some insinuation that Talbot was getting a little wobbly on inerrancy in the 80s and Masters being established as a result, with Robert L. Thomas moving from Talbot to Masters. I think Dennis McFadden posted something about that here years ago.


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## Pilgrim (Jun 28, 2020)

IveGotQuestions said:


> Hi y'all!
> 
> I am pursuing a *M.A. in Theological Studies* and have been accepted to RTS and Talbot. I am currently serving in the military and will be completing this degree online.
> 
> ...



Keep in mind that there may be trouble in the future with licensure for those who oppose the normalization of homosexuality and transsexualism. I want to say that there have already been some issues with either that or someone getting approved for their Ph.D. I can't remember whether that was in Canada or the US. But with the rapid pace of change today, I'd be very surprised if Bible-believing Christians will be able to get licensed and stay licensed in the near future. Some will dismiss this as fearmongering, but I can't help but think that it will be a problem.

One reason why you are perhaps not getting as many replies here as you might like is because many here (and in Reformed/Calvinistic evangelicalism in general) reject the whole idea of what you're trying to do and think that only Biblical/Nouthetic counseling is legitimate. A lot of conservative seminaries, such as SBTS, have gotten rid of their licensed counseling and psychology programs after coming to reject as illegitimate the idea of integrating the Bible and psychology. But as noted above, RTS is integrationist.

I don't really have any idea about either program. But in general, I'd say if you're looking for something distinctively Reformed, RTS is the way to go. (I don't know what other Reformed options may exist.) Maybe if Biola's program is considered to be excellent and better than RTS, that may be a good option also.

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## Hamalas (Jun 28, 2020)

Romans922 said:


> Talbot is not a reformed seminary. That which is not reformed is not biblical, hence, liberal. Evangelical, yes. Reformed and Biblical, no. There are many more better seminaries out there.



"That which is not reformed is not biblical, hence, liberal."

That sylogism doesn't even begin to check out. What's your definition of liberal?

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## wcf_linux (Jun 28, 2020)

IveGotQuestions said:


> Hi y'all!
> 
> I am pursuing a *M.A. in Theological Studies* and have been accepted to RTS and Talbot. I am currently serving in the military and will be completing this degree online.
> 
> ...



If getting a theological education that's more expressly rooted in the Reformed tradition is important for you, that's a point in RTS's relative favor. That said, at least with Talbot you know you are getting an eclectic Protestant curriculum, so you know to look for ways to get extra footing in Reformed material. 

Don't underestimate the importance of broader factors. Biola is in southern Los Angeles county, and much of the off-campus housing options are in northern Orange County. Pretty pricey, and all the airports are a fair bit of a jog away. That's less of a factor for online study, of course, but worth keeping in mind. I wasn't careful with cost of living and tuition expenses in my graduate studies, and that's caused me trouble in the years since.



bookslover said:


> I graduated from Talbot in 1994 with the M.Div. It is neither liberal (Andrew!) nor Pentecostal (Charles!). Talbot, as with Biola generally, is broadly evangelical and conservative. It is not hostile to Reformed thought, generally speaking. In fact, my church history professor, Alan Gomes, is Reformed. I think he might be retired now, or getting close. Historically (Talbot was founded in 1952), the school was in the Classic Dispensationalism camp (2nd generation dispensationalist - Ryrie, Walvoord, et al). However, due to the influence of the late Robert L. Saucy (1930-2015), who taught systematic theology there from 1961 until his death, the school can be described, starting in the 1990s, as being in the Progressive Dispensationalism camp.
> 
> Biola has an excellent library (which Talbot shares, as the two schools are on the same campus). I've been prowling that library (founded in 1908, as was Biola) for many years, and there is a lot of Reformed stuff there. It has at least two sets of Bavinck's _Reformed Dogmatics_ on its shelves, for example.
> 
> ...



I graduated from Biola undergrad in 2005. (I wish now that I had given Westminster OPC a chance when I was there, though who knows how that would have turned out.) The library's just as good as you say. The current building was opened right at the beginning of my time there, and it is excellent. Dispensationalism wasn't a big topic unless you went out of your way to find it. (Which I did, to an extent.) 

I think the softer forms of charismaticism were making some inroads when I was a student there. J.P. Moreland certainly seemed to be making noises in that direction. The Pentecostal students I knew, however, did not call it a Pentecostal-friendly institution.



BayouHuguenot said:


> That depends on what kind of school you would go to for your PhD. I don't know that a clinical psychology school would want a theology degree.



Rosemead, which is part of Biola, will not scorn a theology degree, even if it came from Talbot!

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## Edward (Jun 28, 2020)

Charles Johnson said:


> Biola is pentecostal.



I've never heard it called that before. Got anything to back it up? 

I would have tagged it Dispensational, based on folks I've known that went there.


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## Charles Johnson (Jun 28, 2020)

Edward said:


> I've never heard it called that before. Got anything to back it up?
> 
> I would have tagged it Dispensational, based on folks I've known that went there.


I recanted. I was confusing it with another school.


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## IveGotQuestions (Jun 28, 2020)

Pilgrim said:


> Keep in mind that there may be trouble in the future with licensure for those who oppose the normalization of homosexuality and transsexualism. I want to say that there have already been some issues with either that or someone getting approved for their Ph.D. I can't remember whether that was in Canada or the US. But with the rapid pace of change today, I'd be very surprised if Bible-believing Christians will be able to get licensed and stay licensed in the near future. Some will dismiss this as fearmongering, but I can't help but think that it will be a problem.
> 
> One reason why you are perhaps not getting as many replies here as you might like is because many here (and in Reformed/Calvinistic evangelicalism in general) reject the whole idea of what you're trying to do and think that only Biblical/Nouthetic counseling is legitimate. A lot of conservative seminaries, such as SBTS, have gotten rid of their licensed counseling and psychology programs after coming to reject as illegitimate the idea of integrating the Bible and psychology. But as noted above, RTS is integrationist.
> 
> I don't really have any idea about either program. But in general, I'd say if you're looking for something distinctively Reformed, RTS is the way to go. (I don't know what other Reformed options may exist.) Maybe if Biola's program is considered to be excellent and better than RTS, that may be a good option also.



I appreciate your insight. Definitely something to take into consideration for the future.


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## IveGotQuestions (Jun 28, 2020)

wcf_linux said:


> If getting a theological education that's more expressly rooted in the Reformed tradition is important for you, that's a point in RTS's relative favor. That said, at least with Talbot you know you are getting an eclectic Protestant curriculum, so you know to look for ways to get extra footing in Reformed material.
> 
> Don't underestimate the importance of broader factors. Biola is in southern Los Angeles county, and much of the off-campus housing options are in northern Orange County. Pretty pricey, and all the airports are a fair bit of a jog away. That's less of a factor for online study, of course, but worth keeping in mind. I wasn't careful with cost of living and tuition expenses in my graduate studies, and that's caused me trouble in the years since.
> 
> ...



Thank you for sharing your experience and insight!


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## Mikey (Jun 29, 2020)

RTS has a wonderful app with many of their lecture series online for free. I've benefited from many of the lecture series in the past (I'm currently going through one now!). Be sure to check it out.

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## bookslover (Jun 29, 2020)

Pilgrim said:


> Probably not to the same extent now as before. The Southern Baptists aren't really so hostile to it anymore either.
> 
> I vaguely remember some insinuation that Talbot was getting a little wobbly on inerrancy in the 80s and Masters being established as a result, with Robert L. Thomas moving from Talbot to Masters. I think Dennis McFadden posted something about that here years ago.



The cynic in me thinks that MacArthur was itching to start his own school and "decided" that Talbot was "getting wobbly" on inerrancy as the reason to do so. I could be wrong. When I was there in the early 1990s, the school was solid on the subject. Still is, as far as I know.


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## bookslover (Jun 29, 2020)

wcf_linux said:


> I think the softer forms of charismaticism were making some inroads when I was a student there. J.P. Moreland certainly seemed to be making noises in that direction. The Pentecostal students I knew, however, did not call it a Pentecostal-friendly institution.



Yes, I remember being quite amazed upon hearing that Moreland - that hard-headed, no-nonsense philosopher - was playing footsie with some form of the charismatic movement. He was in a serious car accident some years ago. Maybe that got him to thinking about it, having survived that.


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## RamistThomist (Jun 29, 2020)

bookslover said:


> He was in a serious car accident some years ago. Maybe that got him to thinking about it, having survived that.



I'm a big fan of Moreland and I've never heard that. I know he's had several forms of cancer.


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## bookslover (Jun 29, 2020)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I'm a big fan of Moreland and I've never heard that. I know he's had several forms of cancer.



That, too. But, at 72 (this year), he just keeps chugging away. Still teaching, last I heard.


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## usernamecrtamil (Jun 29, 2020)

I'm an RTS Hybrid student, so I take a fare amount of RTS Global courses in addition to my residential courses. I can certainly attest to both the rigor and Reformed/Biblical Fidelity. How much of the theological curriculum would mesh with your vocation would be for you to determine (which I see from a previous post on this forum you've already addressed). As far as the quality of education however, top notch to be sure.

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## IveGotQuestions (Jun 29, 2020)

jnslance said:


> I'm an RTS Hybrid student, so I take a fare amount of RTS Global courses in addition to my residential courses. I can certainly attest to both the rigor and Reformed/Biblical Fidelity. How much of the theological curriculum would mesh with your vocation would be for you to determine (which I see form a previous post on this forum you've already addressed). As far as the quality of education however, top notch to be sure.



Thank you for sharing!

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## Pilgrim (Jun 30, 2020)

bookslover said:


> The cynic in me thinks that MacArthur was itching to start his own school and "decided" that Talbot was "getting wobbly" on inerrancy as the reason to do so. I could be wrong. When I was there in the early 1990s, the school was solid on the subject. Still is, as far as I know.



Dennis McF posted something about it here years ago. I think maybe there was supposed to be an extension site or something like that at Grace and it ended up turning into a new seminary.


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## bookslover (Jun 30, 2020)

Pilgrim said:


> Dennis McF posted something about it here years ago. I think maybe there was supposed to be an extension site or something like that at Grace and it ended up turning into a new seminary.



I have a vague memory of that, too. A long time ago now.


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## arapahoepark (Jun 30, 2020)

Pilgrim said:


> Dennis McF posted something about it here years ago. I think maybe there was supposed to be an extension site or something like that at Grace and it ended up turning into a new seminary.








A Dispensational Plug for Calvin


"The Good Book Blog" is a blog sponsored by Talbot School of Theology (part of Biola University in La Mirada, California). Now, Talbot (founded in 1952 and originally called Talbot Theological Seminary) is, officially, a classic-dispensationalist school. However, if you go to the blog (The...




puritanboard.com









Seminary Choice: TMS, Southern or Westminster?


I graduated from TMS. It's a good school and teaches exegesis and exposition very well. Systematics are not emphasized a great deal. Covenantalism is frowned upon. But I never was pressed in regard to the dispensational eschatalogical aspects of theology either. The comments here against TMS...




puritanboard.com


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