# Do Christians still have a sinful nature?



## heartoflesh

...and it's in the process of being renewed? 

Or is it completely done away with at conversion?


Thanks in advance, I need help getting my head around this one.


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## jjraby

I would say that No, it is not done away with at conversion.

Sanctification which is after conversion (faith and Repentance) in the ordo salutus. Sanctification is WSC #35 Sanctification is the work of God’s free grace, whereby we are renewed in the whole man after the image of God, and are enabled more and more to die unto sin, and live unto righteousness. 

So on that note, during sanctification that starts to happen after conversion, we are continually dieing to sin by the work of the Holy Spirit and ultimately completed in Glorification.


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## rbcbob

This from WCF

WCF 19:6 Although *true believers *be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned;(1) yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly;(2) discovering also *the sinful pollutions of their nature*, hearts, and lives


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## jjraby

*Westminster confession Chapter 13*

WCF Chapter 13


> I. They, who are once effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart, and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection,[1] by His Word and Spirit dwelling in them:[2] the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed,[3] and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified;[4] and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces,[5] to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.[6]
> 
> II. This sanctification is throughout, in the whole man;[7] yet imperfect in this life, there abiding still some remnants of corruption in every part;[8] whence arises a continual and irreconcilable war, the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.[9]
> 
> III. In which war, although the remaining corruption, for a time, may much prevail;[10] yet, through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part does overcome;[11] and so, the saints grow in grace,[12] perfecting holiness in the fear of God.[13]
> 
> Scripture references
> [1] 1CO 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. ACT 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified. PHI 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; ROM 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
> 
> [2] JOH 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. EPH 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word. 2TH 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.
> 
> [3] ROM 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
> 
> [4] GAL 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. ROM 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
> 
> [5] COL 1:11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness. EPH 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
> 
> [6] 2CO 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. HEB 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.
> 
> [7] 1TH 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
> 
> [8] 1JO 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. ROM 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. PHI 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
> 
> [9] GAL 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 1PE 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul.
> 
> [10] ROM 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
> 
> [11] ROM 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 1JO 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. EPH 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
> 
> [12] 2PE 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. 2CO 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
> 
> [13] 2CO 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.


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## heartoflesh

So there is still the old nature contending with the new nature? 

Old man vs. New man?


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## bpkantor

Before you ask if our old nature is gone you must define nature. I think we all probably have at least a slightly different definition of what nature means. For example, if nature is synonymous with the way Ezekiel uses heart, then we only have the new nature...

"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh." (36:26)

On the other hand, if we consider the "flesh" or the "old man" as synonymous for "nature", then there are other scriptures which would make us think there are two...

"So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." (Romans 7:25)

"that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit," (Ephesians 4:22)

So the first question is this: what is nature? how do you define it? how does the bible define it?

I think this is the most helpful place to start.

God bless,
--Ben


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## rbcbob

heartoflesh said:


> So there is still the old nature contending with the new nature?



The Christian has one nature; human. It is being renewed day by day.

2 Corinthians 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.


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## heartoflesh

> So the first question is this: what is nature? how do you define it? how does the bible define it?



I think I'm refering to "the old man", but I'm not entirely sure that's what others mean by it.

Rom. 6:6-7
knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin. 

This question came up in a bible study last night and I wasn't sure which way to go with it. By default I assumed that Christians must obviously still have the sin nature since they battle with sin. I started doing some research this morning and found an article where the fellow seems to think it's Reformed people who are propogating the "no more sin nature" theology... MacArthur, Murray, Hoekema. 

For example, he writes...



> Among Reformed Bible teachers, the view that a Christian does not possess an old nature has rapidly become the majority view. During the last fifty years, Reformed teachers have stepped forward, ardently stressing that believers do not possess an old sinful nature. They teach that the “old self”, or “old nature”, or the “flesh” at regeneration ceases to be present in the body of the believer. The believer does not possess two natures, the old sinful nature and the new divine nature, but rather one nature received at conversion. Reformed Baptist author and preacher John MacArthur, from Panorama City, CA, writes, “I believe it is a serious misunderstanding to think of the believer as having both an old and new nature. Believers do not have dual personalities…there is no such thing as an old nature in the believer.”



One Naturism | plymouthbrethren.org


So I'm confused as to who holds to what.


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## CharlieJ

Just about everyone agrees that believers still sin. Even most "perfectionists" define perfection in ways that most of us would label sin. 

However, it does matter how we view ourselves. Many evangelicals hold to a 2-nature, or a "black-dog, white-dog" theology. That is, they believe that before a man believes, he has one nature, a sin nature. After he believes, he *adds* a new nature, a godly one. These two natures are like 2 dogs fighting each other, and in any given situation, one of them wins. Usually, 2-nature people identify "surrender" as the key to "the victorious Christian life." Notice that there is no real room for progressive sanctification. It's either/or, good or bad, never-changing dualistic conflict.

In contrast, the Reformed position is that something definite occurred in regeneration. The entrance of the Holy Spirit dispositionally changes a person so that he proceeds down a new path in life. Entrenched patterns of sin and unbelief obscure the way, and they must be rooted out. Yet, he is one person _imperfectly_ living out his one nature. He is no longer a sinner, characterized by wickedness, but a saint. The Reformed view is much more like a dimmer on a light (whereas the 2-nature is like a light switch, off or on). Even in our best moments, we're not totally free from impurity. Even at our worst, we can still see traces of God's grace in our lives. Most importantly, this one nature allows room for real progress. That doesn't mean the fight gets easier, because there are always new battles to face, but it does mean that ground really is won and held. Over a lifetime, others can see this new nature in us, even when we struggle to see it in ourselves.

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## Steve Curtis

Following up on what Charlie has written, this teaching not only does not allow sanctification - it renders it either impossible or moot. The "bad" nature _cannot_ change, while the "good" nature is wholly godly, and therefore does not _need_ to be sanctified. The believer is then left "outside" of himself, so to speak, constantly "choosing" which nature he will "follow." Very confusing stuff, yet very common these days.

---------- Post added at 06:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:58 PM ----------

Seems to be a Dispensational thing, primarily.

Ryrie wrote (my emphasis):
The moment one accepts Jesus Christ as his personal Savior he becomes a new creation. The life of God within him begets a new nature which remains with him along with the old as long as he lives. Understanding the presence, position, and relationship of the old and new within the life of a believer is essential to experiencing a wholesome and balanced spiritual life… Too often when people think of the sin nature and the new nature they picture two distinct people who live inside their bodies. One is a grisly, horrifying, degenerate man while the other is a handsome, young victorious-looking man.
*Representations like this are not necessary to be discarded entirely* though they often lead to the idea that it is not really I who do these things but the “little man” inside me.

Scofield taught that “the regenerate new self is distinguished from the old self, and is a new self as having become a partaker of the divine nature and life, and in no sense the old self made over, or improved. The new self is Christ formed in the Christian.”

Charles Ryrie, Balancing the Christian Life (Chicago: Moody, 1969), p. 34.
Quoted in: John Walvoord, “The Augustinian-Dispensational Perspective,” in Deiter, _Five Views of Sanctification_, p. 208.


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## heartoflesh

> Many evangelicals hold to a 2-nature, or a "black-dog, white-dog" theology



Yes, this is exactly the analogy the brother at the bible study said he disagreed with. So I asked him, "do you believe Christians still have a sinful nature" to which he replied "No.... 2 Cor. 5:17.... new creation"

So I'm trying to boil all this down.

1) We always only have one nature-- human nature.

2) At conversion the "old man" is crucified, meaning the power and slavery to sin no longer exists. The "new man" created in righteousness and holiness of the truth now reigns (or should reign).

3) Even after conversion our human nature is still subject to remaining indwelling sin, but this is not the same as before conversion when the "old man" was alive and in charge, and we were in slavery to sin.

4) In summary-- Christians do not have two competing natures inside of them, but one nature, still subject to the effects of sin but being progressively renewed day by day.

Am I close?


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## Jack K

CharlieJ said:


> The Reformed view is much more like a dimmer on a light (whereas the 2-nature is like a light switch, off or on).



A helpful illustration I hadn't heard before. Did you come up with it?


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## Peairtach

CharlieJ said:


> Just about everyone agrees that believers still sin. Even most "perfectionists" define perfection in ways that most of us would label sin.
> 
> However, it does matter how we view ourselves. Many evangelicals hold to a 2-nature, or a "black-dog, white-dog" theology. That is, they believe that before a man believes, he has one nature, a sin nature. After he believes, he *adds* a new nature, a godly one. These two natures are like 2 dogs fighting each other, and in any given situation, one of them wins. Usually, 2-nature people identify "surrender" as the key to "the victorious Christian life." Notice that there is no real room for progressive sanctification. It's either/or, good or bad, never-changing dualistic conflict.
> 
> In contrast, the Reformed position is that something definite occurred in regeneration. The entrance of the Holy Spirit dispositionally changes a person so that he proceeds down a new path in life. Entrenched patterns of sin and unbelief obscure the way, and they must be rooted out. Yet, he is one person _imperfectly_ living out his one nature. He is no longer a sinner, characterized by wickedness, but a saint. The Reformed view is much more like a dimmer on a light (whereas the 2-nature is like a light switch, off or on). Even in our best moments, we're not totally free from impurity. Even at our worst, we can still see traces of God's grace in our lives. Most importantly, this one nature allows room for real progress. That doesn't mean the fight gets easier, because there are always new battles to face, but it does mean that ground really is won and held. Over a lifetime, others can see this new nature in us, even when we struggle to see it in ourselves.


 
Very good analogies.

The Reformed view is more biblical, and also avoids the idea that the Christian is some kind of soli-personality, "schizophrenic" or imbalanced.

There is areal sense also in which - although the Christian sins - his deepest motive is his love to God and His law, and that that will progressively triumph over the remains of sin.

We have one human nature which has been 

(a)Justified by faith alone through grace alone in Christ alone. Thus the punishment and condemnation of sin have been dealt with first. We are ready to meet God, whenever that will happen.

(b) The power of sin has been somewhat broken in regeneration, union with Christ, and definitive sanctification. E.g. Romans 6. A new ground motive ("heart") of love for God and His law has been given to our nature.

(c) There is an ongoing struggle with the presence and remains of sin in our human nature until death. 

There are not two natures in the believer but one nature that has been definitively renewed and is being progressively renewed.


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## CharlieJ

Jack K said:


> CharlieJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Reformed view is much more like a dimmer on a light (whereas the 2-nature is like a light switch, off or on).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A helpful illustration I hadn't heard before. Did you come up with it?
Click to expand...

 
I've been using it a long time, but I think Andrew Naselli uses it in _Let Go and Let God? A Survey and Analysis of Keswick Theology_. Maybe I picked it up somewhere without realizing it.

---------- Post added at 07:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:27 PM ----------




heartoflesh said:


> Many evangelicals hold to a 2-nature, or a "black-dog, white-dog" theology
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, this is exactly the analogy the brother at the bible study said he disagreed with. So I asked him, "do you believe Christians still have a sinful nature" to which he replied "No.... 2 Cor. 5:17.... new creation"
> 
> So I'm trying to boil all this down.
> 
> 1) We always only have one nature-- human nature.
> 
> 2) At conversion the "old man" is crucified, meaning the power and slavery to sin no longer exists. The "new man" created in righteousness and holiness of the truth now reigns (or should reign).
> 
> 3) Even after conversion our human nature is still subject to remaining indwelling sin, but this is not the same as before conversion when the "old man" was alive and in charge, and we were in slavery to sin.
> 
> 4) In summary-- Christians do not have two competing natures inside of them, but one nature, still subject to the effects of sin but being progressively renewed day by day.
> 
> Am I close?
Click to expand...

 
I think you're doing just fine. Most of our problems in theology, I think, are caused by failing to grasp all the elements of a doctrine simultaneously. Some Reformed-ish types, Lordship people mostly, tend to lose sight of doctrines other than regeneration, so that any sin in the life of a believer casts doubt on their salvation. Keswick people tend to focus on "surrender" to the exclusion of the means of grace. Spiritual disciplines people can minimize public worship in favor of "quiet time." And some, looking at indwelling sin and our constant need for the external righteousness, forget that real progress can and must be made. We like reducing theology to single ideas. They're easier to carry that way.


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## Notthemama1984

If Christians do not have a sin nature, then I am not a Christian.


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## heartoflesh

Okay I think I'm getting lost in my own thoughts again. Not too surprising.

We all agree that after conversion there is a war the believer wages with sin. There is a war between the flesh and the Spirit. How is this quantitatively different from the black dog white dog thing? Is it just that they're saying the two dogs are two different natures at war with each, and we're saying it's the same nature with different inclinations/operations at war with each other? 

Or are the black dog white dog people saying something more? Are they saying the dogs are two equal and opposing natures where the decisive victory has not been settled? While we're saying that within our one nature the flesh/old man is utterly defeated, but like Hitler in his bunker he is still giving it one last shot, while the Spirit has decisively won and is continuing to win more and more battles?


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## CharlieJ

heartoflesh said:


> Or are the black dog white dog people saying something more? Are they saying the dogs are two equal and opposing natures where the decisive victory has not been settled? While we're saying that within our one nature the flesh/old man is utterly defeated, but like Hitler in his bunker he is still giving it one last shot, while the Spirit has decisively won and is continuing to win more and more battles?



Yes, the 2-nature people might not say that the 2 sides are evenly matched, but in any case, the concept is too static. As Steve said, the bad nature can't change, and the good nature doesn't need to. 

The two problems are 1) the on-off (think light switch) approach to Christian living and 2) the inability to fit progressive sanctification through the means of grace into "surrender"

#1 - Many people who try to live by 2-nature principles have major swings. They either think they're "in the Spirit" and everything they do is spotless, or they're "in the flesh," and it's all terribly evil. Now, any Christian can have these swings, but the doctrine exacerbates the issue. Reformed doctrine teaches that, even when we're sinning, the Spirit is at work in us; even when we're most sincere, our good works still need to be purified by the blood of Christ.

#2 - Because of the black-dog/white-dog (or on/off) concept, the whole Christian life boils down to being adequately "surrendered" at every given moment to make sure the white dog wins. When surrender is defined as a subjective state in which I feel surrendered, it really loses its objective meaning and detracts from striving with the means of grace against the flesh. Again, this paradigm can't explain why believers progress in sanctification over time.

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