# Mark Driscoll: Church needs dudes



## buggy (Jun 23, 2010)

What do you think of his comments?

YouTube - Church Needs Dudes


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## CNJ (Jun 23, 2010)

Hey, there were dudes at Ligonier in Orlando last week. During a break the line to the men's room was out the door and we ladies could walk right into our ladies room. LOL Have never seen that before.


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## Montanablue (Jun 23, 2010)

Kathleen's Irrelevant Comment of the Day: I hate it when men call women chicks. Ugh. 

I agree that the church needs more men. And I also think that he's spot on about churches being geared towards women. I think the real solution is simply to preach the gospel - which is relevant to men and women - and forget the cultural trappings. 

Also, I'm not a fan of people who describe the Bible as "masculine" and ascribe "feminine" traits to all of the things they don't like. First of all, their ideas about what is masculine and what is feminine are often extremely weird. (Bravery, for example, is often assumed by these yahoos to be masculine. Poppycock.) Second, God created men and women and thus both "masculine" and "feminine traits" have value. (note: i'm not saying drscoll does this, just that I've seen it recently and its truly nauseating.)

But at the end of the day, if you simply preach the gospel, I think this ceases to become a problem


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## RandPhoenix (Jun 23, 2010)

Montanablue said:


> But at the end of the day, if you simply preach the gospel, I think this ceases to become a problem


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## captivewill (Jun 23, 2010)

I would not walk across the street to consult with Mark Driscoll.


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## Willem van Oranje (Jun 23, 2010)

Montanablue said:


> Kathleen's Irrelevant Comment of the Day: I hate it when men call women chicks. Ugh.
> 
> I agree that the church needs more men. And I also think that he's spot on about churches being geared towards women. I think the real solution is simply to preach the gospel - which is relevant to men and women - and forget the cultural trappings.
> 
> ...


 
Part of the problem is that men are not being taught to be godly leaders in the church and in their homes, and so they feel out of place (in both), since they are not allowed to do what God created them to do. So they are departing both church and home to find other things they can lead and manage.


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## Ivan (Jun 23, 2010)

I prefer the word "men" to "dudes".


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## VictorBravo (Jun 23, 2010)

Housekeeping advice:

When you post a video link, please provide a summary of the video. Many of us do not have time or inclination to watch a 5 minute video while checking posts. If we knew a summary of the topic, we could decide whether it is worth the time to watch the clip.

Housekeeping advice off

Funny how words change as culture changes. I always understood the term "dude" to mean a fancily-dressed, soft, and maybe effeminate, man--especially an Easterner who comes to the West for vacation and who wears expensive cowboy clothes that a real cowboy could never afford to own.

According to my etymological dictionary, that is what the term more or less meant for the past 130 years.

But I work in Seattle and I know what "dude" means here: a straight, driven, focused yet studiously laid back young man who doesn't let on he is impressed by anything but is constantly worried that he won't be impressive.

Leaving aside the cultural issues, I think Driscoll is right on in his discussion of the need to assess a man before encouraging him to enter into ministry (in this case church planting). He is correct in his evaluation of most of the churches in the Seattle region: they are focused on a soft and feminine view of worship and of God which leads most "dudes" to think that church is for women and children. 

But this isn't a revelation--it's been a complaint in evangelical circles for probably two decades.

I think his focus on finding innovators has merit in the sense that you identify driven and focused men for further training in ministry. I don't think "innovation" is a good idea in the sense that a church needs to constantly be coming up with new programs to attract the dudes. 

All in all, I think Driscoll is doing good work in this pagan enclave. He is growing up and he will grow more too. I would cross the street to talk with him, but he's a hard man to locate around here because he is apparently so busy.


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## Emmanuel (Jun 23, 2010)

Ivan said:


> I prefer the word "men" to "dudes".


 
I prefer the word "ἀνδροι" to "men" or "dudes"


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## Christusregnat (Jun 23, 2010)

The late and venerable Otto Scott is reported to have said that the way to have more men in your church is to serve beer when you have times together in one anothers' homes.


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## SolaScriptura (Jun 23, 2010)

1 Corinthians 16:13 says, "Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, _act like men_, be strong." [emphasis mine]

The lexicons say that this refers to be brave or courageous. So it isn't silly to associate bravery with biblical manhood. Indeed, the fact that Paul could say, "act like men," itself implies that there are some fairly objective behaviors that accompany being a man. It is totally fair to say that not all males are men. (Just as not all women are ladies.) And oh, "loving Jesus" doesn't automatically make one a man. 

We don't need "dudes" in the church - because the use of the term in the vernacular inherently implies quasi-adolescent traits which, quite frankly, we can do without. 

We need men. Give me 10 men like Stonewall Jackson who are willing to live or die by principle and you can keep your hundreds of dudes who need to be entertained with golf outings, beer parties, Super Bowl get togethers, etc.

BTW - in general I agree with Driscoll.


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## jwright82 (Jun 23, 2010)

I don't know down here in Jacksonville Florida the word "dude" means simply guy or man. There is no other meaning for it. That may be different elsewhere. You don't ussually here it used when speaking about older gentlemen but it can be. I have heard it used t when complimenting someone or other less than gracious ways of speaking. 

I can definantly see Montanablue's point about not liking girls being called chicks. I mean in general it doesn't seem like women get very good cultural references, like being called a '"boo" whatever that means? I think women definantly get a bad set of nicknames if you will. Down here it is very common to hear someone refer to their wife or someone elses wife as old lady. Now I don't believe that anything derogetory is meant by it but I don't think any girl wants to be called an old lady, regardless of what is meant by it. I think we should find more repsectfull and complimentory ways of refering to women if the word girl just won't do.


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## Mushroom (Jun 23, 2010)

There is nothing inherently evil in masculinity or femininity, both are created by God for good purposes. What is wicked and perverse is when that which should be masculine is feminine, and that which should be feminine is masculine.


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## torstar (Jun 23, 2010)

We need men. Give me 10 men like Stonewall Jackson who are willing to live or die by principle and you can keep your hundreds of dudes who need to be entertained with golf outings, beer parties, Super Bowl get togethers, etc.


I'm just in volume one of the Foote trilogy on the Civil War.

Stonewall is always late for battle (or fails to show at all) and in a world of his own.

I understand he doesn't last much longer so I hope this gets impressive before I conclude he was vastly overrated.


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## Christusregnat (Jun 23, 2010)

torstar said:


> Stonewall is always late for battle (or fails to show at all) and in a world of his own.
> 
> I understand he doesn't last much longer so I hope this gets impressive before I conclude he was vastly overrated.


 
ROFL

You need to read a real history then.


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## Notthemama1984 (Jun 23, 2010)

I have always felt that if you fix the dude problem, the female deacon problem goes away as well.


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## raekwon (Jun 23, 2010)

Heh. Driscoll's church has female deacons. (But then again, it's not considered a "problem" there.)


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jun 23, 2010)

Christusregnat said:


> torstar said:
> 
> 
> > Stonewall is always late for battle (or fails to show at all) and in a world of his own.
> ...


 
An interesting side note to this is Erwin Rommel (the famous "Desert Fox") came to the Shenandoah valley to study Jackson's Valley Campaign and used much of what he learned in North Africa.


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## py3ak (Jun 24, 2010)

raekwon said:


> Heh. Driscoll's church has female deacons. (But then again, it's not considered a "problem" there.)


 
Which could mean nothing more than that he has only a partial fix for the problem.


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## LawrenceU (Jun 24, 2010)

torstar said:


> We need men. Give me 10 men like Stonewall Jackson who are willing to live or die by principle and you can keep your hundreds of dudes who need to be entertained with golf outings, beer parties, Super Bowl get togethers, etc.
> 
> 
> I'm just in volume one of the Foote trilogy on the Civil War.
> ...


 
Umm, are you reading the same Foote trilogy that I have read? Foote does point out some of the generals unusual actions, but he also points out his relentless effectiveness on the field of battle. There is a reason that Jackson is still studied as one of the greatest tactical and strategic generals of history. His troops were able to move so far and so quickly that they were called 'foot cavalry'. Some of the distances that they traveled are astounding. Add to that the fact they they often then went into full battle for hours and prevailed over larger, better equipped forces with much more artillery, and Jackson's genius rises even higher.


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## Willem van Oranje (Jun 24, 2010)

SolaScriptura said:


> 1 Corinthians 16:13 says, "Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, _act like men_, be strong." [emphasis mine]
> 
> The lexicons say that this refers to be brave or courageous. So it isn't silly to associate bravery with biblical manhood. Indeed, the fact that Paul could say, "act like men," itself implies that there are some fairly objective behaviors that accompany being a man. It is totally fair to say that not all males are men. (Just as not all women are ladies.) And oh, "loving Jesus" doesn't automatically make one a man.
> 
> ...


 
Jackson was one of the true Christian warrior-leaders of history. 

As far as "dude", be careful how you use that out west. It is an insult. A perjorative term for a city-slicker. I remember the angry stares I would get by casually referring to other cowboys on the team as "dudes" in my rodeo days out in Colorado.


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## fredtgreco (Jun 24, 2010)

Here is an excellent resource on masculinity in the Church:

Masculine Mandate by Rick Phillips


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## Willem van Oranje (Jun 24, 2010)

Besides the male headship/leadership which is lacking in the teaching and life of many churches, the other aspect of this is that it takes a manly theology, a big, strong God, a powerful Jesus, to bring a manly man to his knees. That's why cotton-candy theology won't bring men in. They won't come to church because it's cool and fun, because to a manly man, it isn't cool and it isn't fun. He needs to recognize his weakness and be squashed by Christ, body-slammed and pinned down by Jesus, before he will humble himself and worship anyone. That's why Reformed Churches seem to normally have a surplus of men whereas other churches are short on "dudes".


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## Sgt Grit (Jun 24, 2010)

When I worked as a Wrangler and Cowboy the word Dude was almost always accompanied with a comment on some less than manly trait in a person, and was always considered an insult, but Mark is a City Fella, so I guess it's manly to be a dude in the city. I prefer man since dude is a little effeminate for me. 

Being a Marine, Wrangler and Construction worker didn't make me a man, what made me a real man was Christ, and I am more of a man now as a Network Engineer than I ever was as a Marine even if I don't get dirty.


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## Montanablue (Jun 24, 2010)

> Being a Marine, Wrangler and Construction worker didn't make me a man, what made me a real man was Christ, and I am more of a man now as a Network Engineer than I ever was as a Marine even if I don't get dirty.



Amen.


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## Andres (Jun 24, 2010)

Sgt Grit said:


> When I worked as a Wrangler and Cowboy the word Dude was almost always accompanied with a comment on some less than manly trait in a person, and was always considered an insult, but Mark is a City Fella, so I guess it's manly to be a dude in the city. I prefer man since dude is a little effeminate for me.
> 
> Being a Marine, Wrangler and Construction worker didn't make me a man, what made me a real man was Christ, and I am more of a man now as a Network Engineer than I ever was as a Marine even if I don't get dirty.


 
Thanks from the guy who sits behind a computer all day!


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## jwright82 (Jun 24, 2010)

> When I worked as a Wrangler and Cowboy the word Dude was almost always accompanied with a comment on some less than manly trait in a person, and was always considered an insult, but Mark is a City Fella, so I guess it's manly to be a dude in the city. I prefer man since dude is a little effeminate for me.
> 
> Being a Marine, Wrangler and Construction worker didn't make me a man, what made me a real man was Christ, and I am more of a man now as a Network Engineer than I ever was as a Marine even if I don't get dirty.



I always thought that taking up your responsibilities as a man or women is what makes a person truly a man or women. I don't think it has anything to do with what kind of job you have. Great post brother! I try to emulate what I think a man should be to my daughter, who is 7, so that when she gets older, much older as old as I can help it, and gets married she will find a man not so much like me but like the image of manhood that I hopefully portray. That is one reason why even though I am divoriced from her mother I treat my ex-wife with the utmost respect because I feel that part of being a true man is treating all women with the respect they deserve, and I want my daughter to think that way too.


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## DeborahtheJudge (Jun 24, 2010)

Just speaking from experience... I see more men in conservative Reformed churches than in parachurch venues or nondenom. churches. So maybe confessional theology is what Driscoll and the church needs.


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## jwright82 (Jun 24, 2010)

DeborahtheJudge said:


> Just speaking from experience... I see more men in conservative Reformed churches than in parachurch venues or nondenom. churches. So maybe confessional theology is what Driscoll and the church needs.


 
Amen sister!


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## Staphlobob (Jun 26, 2010)

captivewill said:


> I would not walk across the street to consult with Mark Driscoll.


 
I don't know much about Mark Driscoll. I heard a talk by him at one of John Piper's conferences and was impressed ... until the very end. That's when Mark Driscoll began to talk about the need for "rap" and "hip hop" in the church. 

Is he emergent?


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## LawrenceU (Jun 26, 2010)

He is not emergent. He broke strongly with that movement years ago. Plus, he actually believes in rational truth, so he really cannot be emergent.

As to dudes: It was a very derogatory term where I grew up. It still is to a large degree. I have witnessed and been in more that one 'scuffle' that ensued from that being hurled at someone.


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## yoyoceramic (Jun 28, 2010)

Recently several college-aged young men left our church because there weren't enough girls. Go figure that out.


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## AThornquist (Jun 28, 2010)

From living in Northern California all my life, "dude" doesn't seem offensive but is more slang and informal for a male. Thus, to a friend of mine I could say, "What's up, dude?" Or for a heretic I could say, "He's a dangerous dude." I could even speak about somebody on the PB and say, "He seems like a cool dude." Really, I wasn't even aware that "dude" was commonly offensive in other parts of the country, though perhaps I should have expected that to be the case since what is often normal here is disturbing to outsiders.


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## Montanablue (Jun 28, 2010)

AThornquist said:


> From living in Northern California all my life, "dude" doesn't seem offensive but is more slang and informal for a male. Thus, to a friend of mine I could say, "What's up, dude?" Or for a heretic I could say, "He's a dangerous dude." I could even speak about somebody on the PB and say, "He seems like a cool dude." Really, I wasn't even aware that "dude" was commonly offensive in other parts of the country, though perhaps I should have expected that to be the case since what is often normal here is disturbing to outsiders.


 
Andrew, I've never heard it used as an offensive term either - its used very casually by most people I know and girls are often called "dudes" too. I think this may be a generational thing.


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## Scott Shahan (Jun 29, 2010)

Emmanuel said:


> Ivan said:
> 
> 
> > I prefer the word "men" to "dudes".
> ...



Nice...!


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## Mushroom (Jun 29, 2010)

Montanablue said:


> AThornquist said:
> 
> 
> > From living in Northern California all my life, "dude" doesn't seem offensive but is more slang and informal for a male. Thus, to a friend of mine I could say, "What's up, dude?" Or for a heretic I could say, "He's a dangerous dude." I could even speak about somebody on the PB and say, "He seems like a cool dude." Really, I wasn't even aware that "dude" was commonly offensive in other parts of the country, though perhaps I should have expected that to be the case since what is often normal here is disturbing to outsiders.
> ...


I thought girls were called 'dudettes'. I sometimes exclaim '_Dude_ronomy!' when something good happens, but I'm just weird - at least that's what my kids tell me when I do it.


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