# Roman Catholicism v. 1 Timothy 2:5



## black_rose

*1 Timothy 2:5* (ESV)
_For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus..._


I asked my dad yesterday why Catholics pray to Mary. Maybe it wasn't such a smart move on my part to say from the start that it's blasphemous, but dad claims there's nothing wrong with "asking the dead to pray for us." I pointed out that the Bible *specifically* says there is only one intercessor for us, and that is Jesus Christ, but he thinks otherwise. He said something along the lines of:

"Look at it this way. When you know you're in trouble with me about something, who do you go to? Your mom. You ask her to try and get you a 'lighter sentence'."

Again, that's not word-for-word, but I was apt to point out that I wouldn't *pray* to my mom.

He also said that, if it's wrong to pray to Mary, then Baptists and everyone else has it wrong by going to other people and saying, "Hey, can you pray for me?" He said that's the same thing as getting them to intercede on your behalf. To which, again, I told him that group prayer is encouraged in many different places in the Bible.

Is there anything else I missed, maybe, that would have made things more clear to him?


(To Admins: Again, sorry if this is in the wrong thread. Sometimes I come up with things for the forums and I honestly just have no clue what they fall under. I will take no offense if the topic is moved.)


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## Scott1

I trust this will be one of many interesting conversations you have with your parents, _Soli Deo Gloria_.



black_rose said:


> *1 Timothy 2:5* (ESV)
> _For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus..._
> 
> Mr. Calvin did much to reacquaint the church with the biblical theology that Jesus is
> PROPHET, PRIEST AND KING.
> 
> 
> I asked my dad yesterday why Catholics pray to Mary. Maybe it wasn't such a smart move on my part to say from the start that it's blasphemous, but dad claims there's nothing wrong with "asking the dead to pray for us." I pointed out that the Bible *specifically* says there is only one intercessor for us, and that is Jesus Christ, but he thinks otherwise. He said something along the lines of:
> 
> "Look at it this way. When you know you're in trouble with me about something, who do you go to? Your mom. You ask her to try and get you a 'lighter sentence'."
> 
> Yes, but mom is not dead... and could not do anything if she were.
> 
> Again, that's not word-for-word, but I was apt to point out that I wouldn't *pray* to my mom.
> 
> He also said that, if it's wrong to pray to Mary, then Baptists and everyone else has it wrong by going to other people and saying, "Hey, can you pray for me?" He said that's the same thing as getting them to intercede on your behalf. To which, again, I told him that group prayer is encouraged in many different places in the Bible.
> 
> We don't ask someone to pray for us in order to take somehow the place of our Lord as intercessor- we pray individually and in groups because our God has ordained prayer as a "means" to accomplish His Will.
> 
> When we pray to our Lord as intercessor, we pray to Him, i.e. pray to the Father in the Name of Jesus.
> 
> When we ask a friend to pray for us we are not praying to the Father in their name, we're just asking them to pray to the Father in Jesus Name also... because Jesus is uniquely qualified to be the intercessor between God and man.
> 
> Is there anything else I missed, maybe, that would have made things more clear to him?
> 
> 
> (To Admins: Again, sorry if this is in the wrong thread. Sometimes I come up with things for the forums and I honestly just have no clue what they fall under. I will take no offense if the topic is moved.)



Not to speak for the moderators, but "coffee shop" is a members only forum (the general public cannot view it, only members here). 

So, it seems this is a good forum category to get advice, comment on something like this. 

---------- Post added at 02:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:52 PM ----------




> Westminster Confession of Faith
> 
> Chapter VIII
> Of Christ the Mediator
> 
> I. It pleased God, in His eternal purpose, to choose and ordain the Lord Jesus, His only begotten Son, to be the Mediator between God and man,[1] the Prophet,[2] Priest,[3] and King,[4] the Head and Savior of His Church,[5] the Heir of all things,[6] and Judge of the world:[7] unto whom He did from all eternity give a people, to be His seed,[8] and to be by Him in time redeemed, called, justified, sanctified, and glorified.[9]
> 
> II. The Son of God, the second person of the Trinity, being very and eternal God, of one substance and equal with the Father, did, when the fullness of time was come, take upon Him man's nature,[10] with all the essential properties, and common infirmities thereof, yet without sin;[11] being conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost, in the womb of the virgin Mary, of her substance.[12] So that two whole, perfect, and distinct natures, the Godhead and the manhood, were inseparably joined together in one person, without conversion, composition, or confusion.[13] Which person is very God, and very man, yet one Christ, the only Mediator between God and man.[14]
> 
> III. The Lord Jesus, in His human nature thus united to the divine, was sanctified, and anointed with the Holy Spirit, above measure,[15] having in Him all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge;[16] in whom it pleased the Father that all fullness should dwell;[17] to the end that, being holy, harmless, undefiled, and full of grace and truth,[18] He might be thoroughly furnished to execute the office of a Mediator and Surety.[19] Which office He took not unto Himself, but was thereunto called by His Father,[20] who put all power and judgment into His hand, and gave Him commandment to execute the same.[21]
> 
> IV. This office the Lord Jesus did most willingly undertake;[22] which that He might discharge, He was made under the law,[23] and did perfectly fulfil it;[24] endured most grievous torments immediately in His soul,[25] and most painful sufferings in His body;[26] was crucified, and died,[27] was buried, and remained under the power of death, yet saw no corruption.[28] On the third day He arose from the dead,[29] with the same body in which He suffered,[30] with which also he ascended into heaven, and there sits at the right hand of His Father,[31] making intercession,[32] and shall return, to judge men and angels, at the end of the world.[33]
> 
> V. The Lord Jesus, by His perfect obedience, and sacrifice of Himself, which He through the eternal Spirit, once offered up unto God, has fully satisfied the justice of His Father;[34] and purchased, not only reconciliation, but an everlasting inheritance in the kingdom of heaven, for those whom the Father has given unto Him.[35]
> 
> VI. Although the work of redemption was not actually wrought by Christ till after His incarnation, yet the virtue, efficacy, and benefits thereof were communicated unto the elect, in all ages successively from the beginning of the world, in and by those promises, types, and sacrifices, wherein He was revealed, and signified to be the seed of the woman which should bruise the serpent's head; and the Lamb slain from the beginning of the world; being yesterday and today the same, and forever.[36]
> 
> VII. Christ, in the work of mediation, acts according to both natures, by each nature doing that which is proper to itself;[37] yet, by reason of the unity of the person, that which is proper to one nature is sometimes in Scripture attributed to the person denominated by the other nature.[38]
> 
> VIII. To all those for whom Christ has purchased redemption, He does certainly and effectually apply and communicate the same;[39] making intercession for them,[40] and revealing unto them, in and by the word, the mysteries of salvation;[41] effectually persuading them by His Spirit to believe and obey, and governing their hearts by His word and Spirit;[42] overcoming all their enemies by His almighty power and wisdom, in such manner, and ways, as are most consonant to His wonderful and unsearchable dispensation.[43]


.

---------- Post added at 02:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:54 PM ----------

Remember, Jesus ascended to the right hand of God the Father almighty, and ever maketh intercession for the saints.

Your mother, your friends have not, and do not. 

The Roman Church also confesses this (in the Apostles Creed).


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## dudley

1 Timothy 2:5 (ESV)
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus...

Although for hundreds of years the Roman Catholic Church has given honor and adoration to Mary that the Scriptures do not, during the past fifty years, one of the most important trends in the Catholic Church has been an even greater emphasis upon the place of Mary. 

It is one of the many reasons I left the Roman catholic church and became a Protestant.

You said Shannon "if it's wrong to pray to Mary, then Baptists and everyone else has it wrong by going to other people and saying, "Hey, can you pray for me?

To pray for me by going to our sole mediator, Jesus Christ is biblically sound. To pray to Mary, and not go directly to Jesus is not biblically sound. The roman catholic tradition of asking Mary to pray for us has transcended the truth of the Gospel and ends up as blasphemy. Catholics create graven images of Mary kneel before her and end up praying to her. It becomes an abomination in itself. 


The following piece was given to me when I was becoming a Protestant. I was given this by a Reformed Pastor who was instructing me on the Westminster Confession of faith. I asked him the same question and his answer helped clarify the question to me. The following explains the Roman catholic heresy on Mary very well. I hope it will help you and others. 

Roman catholic Mariology draws people away from Jesus and towards Mary. It encourages people to pray rosaries, wear scapulars, and consecrate themselves to Mary. It claims that Mary can get people into Heaven.

Sometimes "Mary" appears with "baby Jesus" in her arms. However, Jesus is not a baby. He was a grown man when He was crucified, resurrected from the dead, and ascended into Heaven. Jesus was a grown man in resurrected glory when Stephen was being stoned and he saw the heavens opened and Jesus standing at the right hand of God the Father (Acts 7:55-56). When Jesus returns in glory at the Second Coming, He will not return as a baby. On Judgment Day, mankind will not be judged by a baby.

The Bible warns us that the devil can appear as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14). Therefore, we should not be surprised if the devil and his demons can appear in the form of the Virgin Mary. The Bible warns us that there will be lying signs and wonders whose purpose is to deceive people and draw them away from God (Matthew 24:24; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10).

We said the following prayer together and I was encouraged to say it daily until I was purged in my mind of all Roman catholic idolatry….

PRAYER: Heavenly Father, I renounce every kind of devotion to the Virgin Mary. I renounce the veneration of Mary. I renounce worship of Mary. I renounce every special title which has been given to Mary. I renounce belief in apparitions of "Mary". I renounce everything which I have said or done because of instructions from these apparitions. I repent of everything which I have said or done in order to venerate the Virgin Mary or to show special devotion to her. I repent of any way in which I have consecrated myself to Mary. I repent of praying the Rosary. I repent of wearing medals, jewelry, rosary bracelets or scapulars which honor Mary. I repent of saying prayers to Mary and singing songs in her honor. I repent of asking Mary to intervene on my behalf instead of trusting God to hear my prayers because He loves me. I repent of believing that Mary could help me or my loved ones. I repent of ever saying or implying that the Virgin Mary is my queen or my mother. I declare that Mary was an ordinary woman who was given the privilege of being the mother of Jesus. She made mistakes like the rest of us. She needed a savior like the rest of us. Please forgive me for believing Catholic doctrines which exalt Mary above other people. Please forgive me for making an idol out of her. In the name of Jesus. Amen.

By the titles of Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate, the Roman Catholic Church means that salvation for everyone would be obtained through Mary, and not directly from Jesus Christ. While this is in fact already taught by the Catholic Church, and has been for many years, it is not yet formally defined as binding dogma, though some Catholics feel it has already achieved that status. Here are examples of this teaching, the first two are papal encyclicals:
5. If in all this series of Mysteries, Venerable Brethren, are developed the counsels of God in regard to us -- "counsels of wisdom and of tenderness" (St. Bernard) -- not less apparent is the greatness of the benefits for which we are debtors to the Virgin Mother. No man can meditate upon these without feeling a new awakening in his heart of confidence that he will certainly obtain through Mary the fullness of the mercies of God. And to this end vocal prayer chimes well with the Mysteries. First, as is meet and right, comes the Lord's Prayer, addressed to Our Father in Heaven: and having, with the elect petitions dictated by Our Divine Master, called upon the Father, from the throne of His Majesty we turn our prayerful voices to Mary. Thus is confirmed that law of merciful meditation of which We have spoken, and which St. Bernardine of Siena thus expresses: "Every grace granted to man has three degrees in order; for by God it is communicated to Christ, from Christ it passes to the Virgin, and from the Virgin it descends to us."

This is heretical and blasphemous. Mary was a sinner who was saved by grace in the same manner of any sinner who trusts Jesus Christ for salvation. The Bible says absolutely nothing about her beyond this. She is not the Mother of God or Ever Virgin or the Queen of Heaven or Co-Redemptress with Christ. She cannot hear or answer prayer, which is a prerogative of Almighty God alone. The Apostles taught absolutely nothing about "Marian worship." Men do not need Mary to bring them to Christ. The needy sinner comes directly to the Lord Jesus Christ, the sole Mediator between God and men: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time" (1 Tim. 2:5-6). Christ promised, "COME UNTO ME, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matthew 11:28). The Bible nowhere invites men to come to Mary or to trust Mary or to pray to Mary (David Cloud, 5/7/97, FBIS).

The following random quotes from the book Ten Series of Meditations on the Mystery of the Rosary, by John Ferraro, is intended to give an overview of Roman Catholic dogma concerning the Virgin Mary. Ferraro's book was given the Nihil Obstat and the Imprimatur, which is an official statement by the Roman Catholic Church that the book "is free of doctrinal or moral error." Therefore, we can take these quotes as official Roman Catholic doctrine:
(a) She [Mary] is co-Redemptrix of the human race.

(b) The church and the saints greet her thus: "You, O Mary, together with Jesus Christ, redeemed us."

(c) God has ordained that no grace will be granted to us except through Mary. It is a doctrine preached by all the saints that no grace will come to us from heaven without passing through Mary's hands. No one will be saved nor obtain mercy except through You, O' heavenly lady. Remember this well, no one will enter heaven without passing through Mary as one would pass through a door. O' Mary, our salvation is in your hands.

(d) During His passion, Mary suffered in her heart all the pains that Jesus suffered in His body. For this reason, God exalted her so greatly.

(e) Mary is our co-Redemptrix because she gave us Jesus pledge of our salvation. Furthermore, she is co-Redemptrix of the human race, because with Christ she ransomed mankind from the power of Satan.

(f) Jesus redeemed us with the blood of His body, Mary with the agonies of her heart.

(g) We were condemned through the fault of one woman; we are saved through the merits of another woman. Just as Eve was the root of death for everyone, so Mary was the source of life for everyone.

(h) Mary is our co-Redemptrix because she suffered in her heart whatever was lacking in the passion of Christ. Are we obligated to Jesus for His passions? -- so we are indebted to Mary for her participation in His passions. She gave birth to Jesus with joy; she gave birth to us, brothers of Jesus, in anguish and sorrow.

(i) Mary, Queen of the Apostles: She is queen of apostles because she formed them and directed them in their preaching. Mary is Queen of Apostles because by herself she routed all the heresies. Mary is Queen of Apostles because she is mother of grace and channel of mercy. She is Queen of Apostles because in her every hope is life and virtue. She is Queen of Apostles because she is conqueror of the Infernal Dragon. (Emphasis added.)

(j) If we spread devotion to Mary, we will gain heaven -- "Who explains me will have life everlasting."

All of the above are blasphemous and counter the truth of salvation ,that all are saved by faith in Christ alone, one of the 5 sola’s of the Reformation that we as Protestants need to re affirm.

This is absolute blasphemy. Nowhere in the Scriptures is Mary exalted this way. Not one time do we find the Apostles or early Christians praying to her. None of the Apostolic epistles to the churches even mention her. Everything the roman catholic church says about Mary is based on human thinking apart from divine revelation. 

I renounced all this false and heretical teaching about Mary as well as Roman Catholicism and her pope completely when I embraced the Reformed Protestant faith and became a Presbyterian. It is dangerous and upsetting when I hear any protestant becoming soft on the Roman catholic tradition of praying to Mary. It is repugnant and an blasphemy and an abomination in my own mind now as a Protestant. 

1 Timothy 2:5 (ESV)
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus...


----------



## Afterthought

> "Look at it this way. When you know you're in trouble with me about something, who do you go to? Your mom. You ask her to try and get you a 'lighter sentence'."
> 
> Again, that's not word-for-word, but I was apt to point out that I wouldn't *pray* to my mom.
> 
> He also said that, if it's wrong to pray to Mary, then Baptists and everyone else has it wrong by going to other people and saying, "Hey, can you pray for me?" He said that's the same thing as getting them to intercede on your behalf. To which, again, I told him that group prayer is encouraged in many different places in the Bible.


Well, when you ask living people to pray for you, you don't pray to them in order to ask them to pray for you. When you ask dead people to pray for you, well, how do you let them know? It seems like the only way you could get dead people to pray for you is to pray to them in order to ask them to pray for you. If that is accepted, then it is easy to see the distinction: with living people, you don't pray to them to ask them to pray for you.

Further, how would Mary or any dead person hear a living person's prayers? It seems there are assumptions that (1) it is possible to communicate to the dead (and do so in a non-morally wrong manner), (2) that the dead are interested and up-to-date on your affairs, (3) that the dead happen to hear your prayer instead of being distracted at the time you make it or have some way of "getting to it" later. Where in the bible are those assumptions proved? Especially in the case of Mary, I'm sure thousands pray to her at once...How could she possibly sort out all those prayers? She would be quite busy and distracted from worshipping God in heaven, I would think, because of all the prayers she would be making to Him on behalf of those on earth. It seems you would have to attribute some divine attributes to her in order for that to be possible.


Just my , for whatever it's worth (and hopefully it's not a strawman of Romanist beliefs).


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## black_rose

Dudley:

I cannot tell you how much all those statements from the Catholic Church appalled me. I cannot tell you how many times I said the words, "no no no! This is _wrong_!" while reading that.

My dad has some books on what Catholics believe, and I do not know for sure if he has the one you mentioned specifically, but I will have to ask.


Thank you for all your insight into this matter. It's going to help me a lot.

---------- Post added at 02:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:26 PM ----------

I also just came across this link, serching specifically for "Does the Bible say anywhere that Mary was born without sin?"

Mary, full of grace, and Luke 1:28 | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

My dad and sister both argued with me yesterday that it's specifically said in the Bible that Mary was born sinless, but I don't see it anywhere. I'm also not sure that, if I asked them to point me to the verse that is claimed, that they would even bother with it.


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## Rufus

black_rose said:


> Dudley:
> 
> I cannot tell you how much all those statements from the Catholic Church appalled me. I cannot tell you how many times I said the words, "no no no! This is _wrong_!" while reading that.
> 
> My dad has some books on what Catholics believe, and I do not know for sure if he has the one you mentioned specifically, but I will have to ask.
> 
> 
> Thank you for all your insight into this matter. It's going to help me a lot.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 02:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:26 PM ----------
> 
> I also just came across this link, serching specifically for "Does the Bible say anywhere that Mary was born without sin?"
> 
> Mary, full of grace, and Luke 1:28 | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
> 
> My dad and sister both argued with me yesterday that it's specifically said in the Bible that Mary was born sinless, but I don't see it anywhere. I'm also not sure that, if I asked them to point me to the verse that is claimed, that they would even bother with it.



The idea of Mary being sinless puts her on the same level as Jesus (the only sinless one).


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## black_rose

I agree, and that, again, in and of itself is blasphemous. I tried to explain that to them, but they just wouldn't listen.


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## Rufus

By the way, Roman Catholicism in the United States is more like Protestantism than its prescence elsewhere.


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## Afterthought

Calvin's Institutes (I linked to the section on prayer) and commentaries might also be useful in general concerning Romanism (though some things may have changed).

Also, Hebrews 4:15 implies that being "without sin" is something unique to Jesus alone. "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin" 


Edit: Also, you probably have noticed this already, but Mary calls God her Savior in Luke. What would she need a Savior for if she was sinless?


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## black_rose

Do you happen to know if I can find an excerpt of the book online? I was talking to my mom and sister about this a little while ago, and mom would like proof that this hasn't been "made up".


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## Matthew Tringali

Afterthought said:


> "Look at it this way. When you know you're in trouble with me about something, who do you go to? Your mom. You ask her to try and get you a 'lighter sentence'."
> 
> Again, that's not word-for-word, but I was apt to point out that I wouldn't *pray* to my mom.
> 
> He also said that, if it's wrong to pray to Mary, then Baptists and everyone else has it wrong by going to other people and saying, "Hey, can you pray for me?" He said that's the same thing as getting them to intercede on your behalf. To which, again, I told him that group prayer is encouraged in many different places in the Bible.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, when you ask living people to pray for you, you don't pray to them in order to ask them to pray for you. When you ask dead people to pray for you, well, how do you let them know? It seems like the only way you could get dead people to pray for you is to pray to them in order to ask them to pray for you. If that is accepted, then it is easy to see the distinction: with living people, you don't pray to them to ask them to pray for you.
> 
> Further, how would Mary or any dead person hear a living person's prayers? It seems there are assumptions that (1) it is possible to communicate to the dead (and do so in a non-morally wrong manner), (2) that the dead are interested and up-to-date on your affairs, (3) that the dead happen to hear your prayer instead of being distracted at the time you make it or have some way of "getting to it" later. Where in the bible are those assumptions proved? Especially in the case of Mary, I'm sure thousands pray to her at once...How could she possibly sort out all those prayers? She would be quite busy and distracted from worshipping God in heaven, I would think, because of all the prayers she would be making to Him on behalf of those on earth. It seems you would have to attribute some divine attributes to her in order for that to be possible.
> 
> 
> Just my , for whatever it's worth (and hopefully it's not a strawman of Romanist beliefs).
Click to expand...


Does this mean your definition of prayer is "talking to dead people"? Does Scripture preclude the possibility that deceased individuals can hear us speaking?


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## Scott1

> *Matthew Tringali*
> Does this mean your definition of prayer is "talking to dead people"? Does Scripture preclude the possibility that deceased individuals can hear us speaking?





> Westminster Confession of Faith
> 
> Chapter XXI
> Of Religious Worship, and the Sabbath Day
> 
> ....
> 
> III. Prayer, with thanksgiving, being one special part of religious worship,[6] is by God required of all men:[7] and, that it may be accepted, it is to be made in the name of the Son,[8] by the help of His Spirit,[9] according to His will,[10] with understanding, reverence, humility, fervency, faith, love and perseverance;[11] and, if vocal, in a known tongue.[12]
> 
> IV. Prayer is to be made for things lawful;[13] and for all sorts of men living, or that shall live hereafter:[14] but not for the dead,[15] nor for those of whom it may be known that they have sinned the sin unto death.[16]
> 
> ....


.


> II. Religious worship is to be given to God, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; and to Him alone;[3] not to angels, saints, or any other creature:[4] and, since the fall, not without a Mediator; nor in the mediation of any other but of Christ alone.[5]





> Scripture proofs
> 
> [6] PHI 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
> 
> [7] PSA 65:6 Which by his strength setteth fast the mountains; being girded with power.
> 
> [8] JOH 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. 1PE 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
> 
> [9] ROM 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
> 
> [10] 1JO 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us.
> 
> [11] PSA 47:7 For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding. ECC 5:1 Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil. 2 Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few. HEB 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: GEN 17:27 And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him. JAM 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. JAM 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. MAR 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. MAT 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. COL 4:2 Continue in prayer, and watch in the same with thanksgiving; EPH 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints.
> 
> [12] 1CO 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
> 
> [13] 1JO 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us.
> 
> [14] 1TI 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. JOH 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word. 2SA 7:29 Therefore now let it please thee to bless the house of thy servant, that it may continue for ever before thee: for thou, O Lord God, hast spoken it: and with thy blessing let the house of thy servant be blessed for ever. RUT 4:12 And let thy house be like the house of Pharez, whom Tamar bare unto Judah, of the seed which the Lord shall give thee of this young woman.
> 
> [15] 2SA 12:21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread. 22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live? 23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. LUK 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. REV 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
> 
> [16] 1JO 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.


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## Matthew Tringali

Scott, that speaks of FOR WHOM we should pray. It does not therefore conclude that dead people cannot hear us speak (although that may be true). I just think to be fair to RC doctrine, one should distinguish between praying TO a dead person and asking a dead person to pray FOR YOU. While personally I think both are wrong and unscriptural, I do think it is an important nuance to be fair to RC doctrine (even if most practitioners misunderstand the doctrine).


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## Scott1

Matthew Tringali said:


> Scott, that speaks of FOR WHOM we should pray. It does not therefore conclude that dead people cannot hear us speak (although that may be true). I just think to be fair to RC doctrine, one should distinguish between praying TO a dead person and asking a dead person to pray FOR YOU. While personally I think both are wrong and unscriptural, I do think it is an important nuance to be fair to RC doctrine (even if most practitioners misunderstand the doctrine).



The standards here also speak TO WHOM we are to pray (and it is not to anything dead).


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## Reformation Monk

Dudely's reply was very very good and I can't add to much to that; but I did want to point out a couple of things. 

1. It is very very tempting for our fallen natures to want to do works of the law. We always feel the need to have to earn our justification/salvation. 

2. Catholics are very very adamant that they only pay Mary with high respect. I don't remember the correct term for this? 

But this claim is proven to be totally false compared to what is practiced. Mary is considered by many to be the "Mediator of all Graces." 

If we look at the "wedding feast at Canna" account in John, we see the Catholic interpretation of it as Mary influencing Jesus to turn the water into wine. 

"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed are thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us; now and at the hour of our death. amen."

The "Marian Catholic" is ( whether they want to admit it or not ) praying through Mary. Because they believe that because of their sinfulness, that Christ, because He is so Holy and Righteous, has to be "convinced" by His mother to forgive us our transgressions. 

This isn't Biblical.


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## Marrow Man

Perhaps this section from Thomas Watson's _Body of Divinity_ will prove helpful:



> Why must prayer be made to God only?
> 
> (1) Because he only hears prayer. 'Oh thou that hearest prayer.' Psa 65:2. Hereby God is known to be the true God, in that he hears prayer. 'Hear me, O Lord, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the Lord God.' I Kings 18:37.
> 
> (2) Because God only can help. We may look to second causes, and cry, as the woman did, 'Help, my lord, O king.' And he said, 'If the Lord do not help thee, whence shall I help thee?' 2 Kings 6:26, 27. If we are in outward distress, God must send from heaven and save; if we are in inward agonies, he only can pour in the oil of joy; therefore prayer is to be made to him only.
> 
> We are to pray 'for things agreeable to his will.' When we pray for outward things, for riches or children, perhaps God sees these things not to be good for us; and our prayers should comport with his will. We may pray absolutely for grace; 'For this is the will of God, even your sanctification.' I Thess 4:3. There must be no strange incense offered. Exod 30:9. When we pray for things which are not agreeable to God's will, it is offering strange incense.
> 
> We are to pray 'in the name of Christ.' To pray in the name of Christ, is not only to mention Christ's name in prayer, but to pray in the hope and confidence of his merits. 'Samuel took a sucking lamb and offered it,' &c. I Sam 7:9. We must carry the lamb Christ in the arms of our faith, and so shall we prevail in prayer. When Uzziah would offer incense without a priest, God was angry, and struck him with leprosy. 2 Chron 26:16. When we do not pray in Christ's name, in the hope of his mediation, we offer up incense without a priest; and what can we expect but to meet with rebukes, and to have God answer us by terrible things?


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## Matthew Tringali

Scott1 said:


> Matthew Tringali said:
> 
> 
> 
> Scott, that speaks of FOR WHOM we should pray. It does not therefore conclude that dead people cannot hear us speak (although that may be true). I just think to be fair to RC doctrine, one should distinguish between praying TO a dead person and asking a dead person to pray FOR YOU. While personally I think both are wrong and unscriptural, I do think it is an important nuance to be fair to RC doctrine (even if most practitioners misunderstand the doctrine).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The standards here also speak TO WHOM we are to pray (and it is not to anything dead).
Click to expand...


My point is only that RC's (at least ones that actually understand their own doctrine) would not say they are praying to Mary. Again, I am not saying that asking Mary to pray FOR us is Biblical, but merely trying to point out that we should make sure to get the charge against RC's correct. Charging them with praying TO Mary does not stick.


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## Reformation Monk

Matthew Tringali said:


> Scott1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Matthew Tringali said:
> 
> 
> 
> Scott, that speaks of FOR WHOM we should pray. It does not therefore conclude that dead people cannot hear us speak (although that may be true). I just think to be fair to RC doctrine, one should distinguish between praying TO a dead person and asking a dead person to pray FOR YOU. While personally I think both are wrong and unscriptural, I do think it is an important nuance to be fair to RC doctrine (even if most practitioners misunderstand the doctrine).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The standards here also speak TO WHOM we are to pray (and it is not to anything dead).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My point is only that RC's (at least ones that actually understand their own doctrine) would not say they are praying to Mary. Again, I am not saying that asking Mary to pray FOR us is Biblical, but merely trying to point out that we should make sure to get the charge against RC's correct. *Charging them with praying TO Mary does not stick.*
Click to expand...


I would have to disagree with this. "Marian Catholics" ( _making the distinction of Catholics who actually do have any focus on Mary and those who don't_ ) pray to Mary, even though they claim they don't. 

If you read all of the Marian literature that is in print... such as Louis De Monfort's "True Devotion to Mary"; you look at the concept of Marian shrines, if you have done the Rosary and understand the main purpose... etc... etc... then it is very clear that Marian Catholics are praying to Mary and not just asking her for her intercession. 

You're praying to her as the Mediator of all Graces, with the view that She has to mediate between you ( a sinful person ) and Christ ( The Holy Son of God ) that Mary ( as our loving mother ) will smooth things over with her Son. 

So the more we pray to her; the more we add credit to our account. 

But.... this all leads to the main error anyway. Which is that the Gospel is Justification by Faith Alone. No matter what, whether a Catholic is truly distinguishing between praying for Mary's intercession or praying to her, it's still with the intent of working for their salvation which is not the Gospel.


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## Afterthought

black_rose said:


> Do you happen to know if I can find an excerpt of the book online? I was talking to my mom and sister about this a little while ago, and mom would like proof that this hasn't been "made up".


I'm sorry, but I don't understand your question. Are you referring to the books I linked to in my post? If so, I linked to online versions of them in that post. If you're referring to the passages in Luke and Hebrews, along with other other websites, you can look them up at www.biblegateway.com (the passage in Luke I referred to is Luke 1:46ff). I'm also not sure what you mean by your family wanting proof that something hasn't been "made up."




Matthew Tringali said:


> Does this mean your definition of prayer is "talking to dead people"? Does Scripture preclude the possibility that deceased individuals can hear us speaking?


(1) No. My point in that was that firstly, we need to ask, "How do we communicate with the dead so that we can ask them to pray for us?" Since it doesn't seem like a dead person will necessarily hear you if you merely just talk like normal, it appears the only way for a direct communication from the living to reach the dead--to reach heaven--would be by talking directly to them. But how? It seems that can only be by prayer. Indeed, when we ask living people to pray for us, we don't go, "Oh Bob! I ask thee! Please pray for me!" (that is, we don't use "prayer language" to ask them to pray for us) But we go, "Hey, Bob, can you pray for me about this?" (that is, we talk to them like a normal person) Of course, a more lax or more hardened Romanist may use the latter kind of language when asking the dead to pray for them or might say certain dead people are worthy of being talked to in such a reverent manner.

But even then, what is the difference between that and prayer? Again, it seems like the only way to communicate personally with someone in heaven is by prayer, unless you give the dead divine qualities such as omniscience or the ability to hear you from far away (after all, living people can't hear you unless they're close enough to you) [although prayer being a part of divine worship, shouldn't be offered to the dead anyway, although a hardened Romanist might counter with the latria vs dulia]. Realizing that a more hardened Romanist might still cling to their distinction just like they would cling to their latria and dulia, I added in my post, "If they accept that."

(2) I don't know if you can construct a necessary inference from Scripture that one can't communicate with the dead (perhaps someone else here can) or that the dead can't hear us. It seems like the Scriptural evidence points otherwise (beyond, perhaps, a general knowledge of God's works, like in Revelation), but a hardened Romanist would probably say the parts that speak of the dead "not knowing anything" (Ecclesiastes 9:5) only refers to their bodies, not their souls, or that it proves too much. Perhaps. But they definitely can't prove from Scripture that dead people hear the living when the living address them personally and directly, nor can they prove the other assumptions I noted in my post. That seems to be the crux with these kinds of things: will we not go beyond what Scripture allows (which allows asking living people to pray for you and allows/commands you to pray to God through Jesus as Mediator) or will we make theories and allow them if Scripture doesn't forbid them? (and I once argued with someone about this and noted that Christians are accused of making up their religion all the time, and if we go beyond Scripture's teaching, we are indeed making up our religion. Of course, a Romanist who believes the Pope is not simply going beyond Scripture's teachings would not accept that)


I wrote as though I was arguing with someone personally. If I was arguing the matter personally, I would probably also add the question of why one would ask the dead to pray for them when we can pray in an authorized manner to a Divine Person anyway? Of course, the argument's strength would depend on the person one is arguing with (they might say, "well then, why do we ask living people to pray?").



If you or anyone has a way of refining what was said in this thread or backing it up or strengthening it (perhaps with Scripture references), or if you or anyone has a better way of approaching the topic, I'm all ears (and I'm sure our original poster will be too)!


----------



## Scott1

Matthew Tringali said:


> Scott1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Matthew Tringali said:
> 
> 
> 
> Scott, that speaks of FOR WHOM we should pray. It does not therefore conclude that dead people cannot hear us speak (although that may be true). I just think to be fair to RC doctrine, one should distinguish between praying TO a dead person and asking a dead person to pray FOR YOU. While personally I think both are wrong and unscriptural, I do think it is an important nuance to be fair to RC doctrine (even if most practitioners misunderstand the doctrine).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The standards here also speak TO WHOM we are to pray (and it is not to anything dead).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My point is only that RC's (at least ones that actually understand their own doctrine) would not say they are praying to Mary. Again, I am not saying that asking Mary to pray FOR us is Biblical, but merely trying to point out that we should make sure to get the charge against RC's correct. Charging them with praying TO Mary does not stick.
Click to expand...


If you agree we do not pray to the "dead," that "dead" have no supernatural ability to "hear," and Christ is the intercessor between God and man (the Apostles Creed acknowledges this), what is the point you are making?


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## louis_jp

Matthew Tringali said:


> Scott1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Matthew Tringali said:
> 
> 
> 
> Scott, that speaks of FOR WHOM we should pray. It does not therefore conclude that dead people cannot hear us speak (although that may be true). I just think to be fair to RC doctrine, one should distinguish between praying TO a dead person and asking a dead person to pray FOR YOU. While personally I think both are wrong and unscriptural, I do think it is an important nuance to be fair to RC doctrine (even if most practitioners misunderstand the doctrine).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The standards here also speak TO WHOM we are to pray (and it is not to anything dead).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My point is only that RC's (at least ones that actually understand their own doctrine) would not say they are praying to Mary. Again, I am not saying that asking Mary to pray FOR us is Biblical, but merely trying to point out that we should make sure to get the charge against RC's correct. Charging them with praying TO Mary does not stick.
Click to expand...


They pray TO Mary. Here is the Catechism of the Catholic Church (emphasis added):

"Beginning with Mary's unique cooperation with the working of the Holy Spirit, the Churches developed their prayer *to* the holy Mother of God, centering it on the person of Christ manifested in his mysteries. In countless hymns and antiphons expressing this prayer, two movements usually alternate with one another: the first "magnifies" the Lord for the "great things" he did for his lowly servant and through her for all human beings29 *the second entrusts the supplications and praises of the children of God TO the Mother of Jesus*, because she now knows the humanity which, in her, the Son of God espoused." (2675).

You might also want to peruse the following RC sites:

Prayers to Mary, the Blessed Mother - Mary, Mother Of God - Catholic Online
THE PSALTER OF THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY
Catholic Prayers to Virgin Mary
Marian (Mary) - Prayers - Catholic Online
http://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/prayers/index.htm
http://www.bostoncatholic.org/Being-Catholic/Content.aspx?id=11456


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## JennyG

I think this practice might be covered by the prohibition against using divination or consulting with familiar spirits (Deut. 18 v 10-12) Saul sinned when he got the witch of Endor to call up the dead Samuel, and attempting to contact Mary or the "Saints", who are only dead human beings, is not a million miles from that.


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## Matthew Tringali

Scott: My point is only that we get the charge right. RC's would say they are speaking to Mary and asking her to pray on their behalf. So, when we go about discussing how RC's pray TO Mary we are not progressing the discourse with RC's since they will ignore us as misunderstanding them. Just like if someone accused a Calvinist of believing God is the author of evil.

Louis: That is a helpful nuance, thanks for that. It really gets at the heart of my initial question in this thread of what is considered prayer. At the end of the day the RC is still going to nuance that description such that what they are doing with Mary is making prayer requests to her to present to the Lord. And, as others have said in this thread, they will claim it is not very different from asking your Pastor or friend to pray for you. Having said that, it still does not deal with the issue of "talking" to dead people.

Jenny: Yes, I agree with that. And, personally, I find that to be the more helpful approach to take with RC's when discussing this than the approach of "praying" to Mary as a divine.


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## Scott1

> *Matthew Tringali*
> RC's would say they are speaking to Mary and asking her to pray on their behalf.



Yes, that is the role of a mediator. And there is no mediator between God and man, other than Christ Jesus. I Timothy 2:5.

Further, dead people can't mediate anything, because they are not given that role even if they were omniscient somehow to be able to do that between living and dead.

You seem to have agreed with this, so I really don't understand your point, maybe it has been lost in the back and forth of the posts.


----------



## louis_jp

Matthew Tringali said:


> Scott: My point is only that we get the charge right. RC's would say they are speaking to Mary and asking her to pray on their behalf. So, when we go about discussing how RC's pray TO Mary we are not progressing the discourse with RC's since they will ignore us as misunderstanding them. Just like if someone accused a Calvinist of believing God is the author of evil.
> 
> Louis: That is a helpful nuance, thanks for that. It really gets at the heart of my initial question in this thread of what is considered prayer. At the end of the day the RC is still going to nuance that description such that what they are doing with Mary is making prayer requests to her to present to the Lord. And, as others have said in this thread, they will claim it is not very different from asking your Pastor or friend to pray for you. Having said that, it still does not deal with the issue of "talking" to dead people.
> 
> Jenny: Yes, I agree with that. And, personally, I find that to be the more helpful approach to take with RC's when discussing this than the approach of "praying" to Mary as a divine.



Matthew, RC's will always "nuance" things to justify their practice. The thing to do is not to indulge them in their double-speak, but to call them on it. If someone says, "it is no different from asking your pastor to pray for you," then ask them whether they could ever subsitute their pastor's name in the following prayer:

"O Mother of Perpetual Help, grant that I may ever invoke thy most powerful name, which is the safeguard of the living and the salvation of the dying. O Purest Mary, O Sweetest Mary, let thy name henceforth be ever on my lips. Delay not, O Blessed Lady, to help me whenever I call on thee, for, in all my needs, in all my temptations I shall never cease to call on thee, ever repeating thy sacred name, Mary, Mary.

O what consolation, what sweetness, what confidence, what emotion fill my soul when I pronounce thy sacred name, or even only think of thee. I thank God for having given thee, for my good, so sweet, so powerful, so lovely a name. But I will not be content with merely pronouncing thy name: let my love for thee prompt me ever to hail thee, Mother of Perpetual Help." 

The question answers itself. And that's just one example.


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## Matthew Tringali

Scott, my point is only to focus on the "dead people" aspect above the "mediator" aspect... As the latter I think falls on deaf ears.

Louis, great point, I can't argue with that!


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## JennyG

A Catholic newspaper used to infest our house sometimes. Once it carried a long article solemnly explaining that despite what the protestants may say, RCs NEVER "worship" Mary (then all the stuff about dulia and latria). Next week there was a letter from an old lady nearly apoplectic with indignation, who said she worshipped Mary every day and had done for the last 60 years, and no-one, no nun or priest or bishop had ever told her not to. I thought at first it was quite honest of the editor to print it, but I think now he was just running with the hare and hunting with the hounds, or as Louis says, "nuancing" things to please as much of his readership as possible.


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## cih1355

According to Deuteronomy 18:9, we are not supposed to communicate with the dead. Hence, we should not pray to dead people or ask dead people to pray for us. Asking a living person to pray for you is not the same as asking a dead person to pray for you. We are not supposed to communicate with the dead.


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## dudley

louis_jp said:


> Matthew Tringali said:
> 
> 
> 
> Scott: My point is only that we get the charge right. RC's would say they are speaking to Mary and asking her to pray on their behalf. So, when we go about discussing how RC's pray TO Mary we are not progressing the discourse with RC's since they will ignore us as misunderstanding them. Just like if someone accused a Calvinist of believing God is the author of evil.
> 
> Louis: That is a helpful nuance, thanks for that. It really gets at the heart of my initial question in this thread of what is considered prayer. At the end of the day the RC is still going to nuance that description such that what they are doing with Mary is making prayer requests to her to present to the Lord. And, as others have said in this thread, they will claim it is not very different from asking your Pastor or friend to pray for you. Having said that, it still does not deal with the issue of "talking" to dead people.
> 
> Jenny: Yes, I agree with that. And, personally, I find that to be the more helpful approach to take with RC's when discussing this than the approach of "praying" to Mary as a divine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Matthew, RC's will always "nuance" things to justify their practice. The thing to do is not to indulge them in their double-speak, but to call them on it. If someone says, "it is no different from asking your pastor to pray for you," then ask them whether they could ever subsitute their pastor's name in the following prayer:
> 
> "O Mother of Perpetual Help, grant that I may ever invoke thy most powerful name, which is the safeguard of the living and the salvation of the dying. O Purest Mary, O Sweetest Mary, let thy name henceforth be ever on my lips. Delay not, O Blessed Lady, to help me whenever I call on thee, for, in all my needs, in all my temptations I shall never cease to call on thee, ever repeating thy sacred name, Mary, Mary.
> 
> O what consolation, what sweetness, what confidence, what emotion fill my soul when I pronounce thy sacred name, or even only think of thee. I thank God for having given thee, for my good, so sweet, so powerful, so lovely a name. But I will not be content with merely pronouncing thy name: let my love for thee prompt me ever to hail thee, Mother of Perpetual Help."
> 
> The question answers itself. And that's just one example.
Click to expand...


Exactly , they have prayers to Mary and Stautues of her they bow down and pray to. We must remember that Roman Catholicism is a false and apostate religion. Roman Catholics love images. Please remember I am an ex Roman Catholic turned Reformed Presbyterian Protestant in recent years. I have seen Roman Catholics bow down in front of statues and pray. They love to adore the host which is a piece of bread. They light candles and pray to the dead like it does some good. They also adore relics like a dead monk's head or a dead saint's finger. We also know that they gaze upon other "sacred" objects and images like pictures of a Madonna and naked baby Jesus ;salvation was accomplished by THE MAN Christ Jesus. Finally we know that they think that there is some benefit of having "a Jesus" hanging on the cross in their homes so they can visualize the object of their worship. Perhaps they think the crucifix is a good luck charm. They will vehemently tell you that they don't worship the images--we've seen a picture of the pope bowing down to Mary, of course when confronted by our accusations as Protestants, they will say they venerate, they do not adore the image of Mary or the saints.

As Protestants we know the Bible says don't even make images. 

Well, what does the Bible say about worshipping images? It says much. but I looking specifically at the Ten Commandments found in Exodus chapter 20. We who are Protestants know that the Ten Commandments prohibit even making images. This poses a problem for the Roman Catholic religion. How does it get around this? The Roman Catholic religion changes The Ten Commandments! How ? They delete the second commandment and divide the last commandment into two.

How can they delete a commandment and still have ten? Some man might ask me, "If the Roman Catholic religion deletes a commandment how do they still come up with ten commandments? 

compare the Roman Catholic ten commandments to the real ten commandments from the King James Bible, that pillar of doctrinal truth; God loves the truth, you know. The following list on the Roman Catholic side is taken from a textbook used in a Catholic school. It is titled, "Growing in Christian Morality" by Julia Ahlers, Barbara Allaire, and Carl Koch, page 40. It has both nihil obstat and imprimatur which are official declarations that a book or pamphlet is free of Roman Catholic doctrinal error. ...These are the Ten Commandments, from Exodus, chapter 20, in the traditional way they are enumerated by Catholics They did NOT use what THEIR NRSV said, they "enumerated" them the traditional way enumerated by Roman Catholics.

The King James Bible
First Commandment 
I am the LORD thy God...Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 
Second Commandment 
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them. 
Third Commandment 
Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain. 
Fourth Commandment 
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 
Fifth Commandment 
Honor thy father and thy mother. 
Sixth Commandment 
Thou shalt not kill. 
Seventh Commandment 
Thou shalt not commit adultery. 
Eighth Commandment 
Thou shalt not steal. 
Ninth Commandment 
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 
Tenth Commandment 
Thou shalt not covet. 

The Catholic Deception*
First Commandment 
I, the LORD, am your God...You shall not have other gods besides me.
Second Commandment 
You shall not take the name of the LORD, your God, in vain.
Third Commandment 
Remember to keep holy the sabbath day. 
Fourth Commandment 
Honor your father and your mother. 
Fifth Commandment 
You shall not kill. 
Sixth Commandment 
You shall not commit adultery. 
Seventh Commandment 
You shall not steal. 
Eighth Commandment 
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. 
Ninth Commandment 
You shall not covet your neighbor's wife. 
Tenth Commandment 
You shall not covet your neighbor's house. 

The Roman Catholic religion deletes the second commandment and makes the 10th commandment into two. If you follow them all the way down from the second commandment you'll see the Roman Catholic religion is always one ahead of the King James. Finally at the tenth commandment they break it into two and make it the 9th and 10th commandments. What a deception! What deceit! It is one of the many reasons I renounced Roman Catholicism and her pope and papist false teachings when I became a Protestant. I tell no lies here--just get out the Bible and compare. They even corrupt their own Bible by deleting the 2nd commandment! 

As a reformed Protestant I believe and hold as a base on my argument above that the prohibition of the 2nd Commandment does stand against the image of the triquetra or any man made image that tries to exemplify the God head and the nature of God because man can not bow down to any such graven image.

EXODUS 20:4-6 

KING JAMES VERSION 
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 

NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION 
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. 

My cynicism of the use of any image goes beyond my former Roman catholic upbringing. When I became a Protestant and a Presbyterian I renounced and rejected the teachings of Roman Catholicism which are contrary to scripture. I renounced the illogical use of papist sanctioned images that can lead unknowingly in the heart of the person to what can become idolatry.


----------



## Scott1

Christ indeed, is uniquely qualified to intercede on our behalf.



> Westminster Larger Catechism
> 
> Q. 55. How doeth Christ make intercession?
> 
> A. Christ maketh intercession, by his appearing in our nature continually before the Father in heaven,[234] in the merit of his obedience and sacrifice on earth,[235] declaring his will to have it applied to all believers;[236] answering all accusations against them,[237] and procuring for them quiet of conscience, notwithstanding daily failings,[238] access with boldness to the throne of grace,[239] and acceptance of their persons[240] and services.[241]





> Scripture proofs
> 
> [234] Hebrews 9:12, 24. Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.... For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.
> 
> [235] Hebrews 1:3. Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.
> 
> [236] John 3:16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 17:9, 20, 24. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.... Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word.... Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
> 
> [237] Romans 8:33-34. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
> 
> [238] Romans 5:1-2. Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 1 John 2:1-2. My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
> 
> [239] Hebrews 4:16. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
> 
> [240] Ephesians 1:6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
> 
> [241] 1 Peter 2:5. Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.


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## [email protected]

I think you did very well! I assume that you have given the gospel to him also. Jesus is not only the one and only mediator, He has offered ONE SACRIFICE FOR SINS FOR ALL TIME etc. Wish you the best in Christ. Dennis Fetherbay, Christian Heritage Reformed Presbyterian Church, Endicott, N.Y.


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## PuritanCovenanter

My question is why would anyone want to go to Mary or any other dead saint when Jesus is ever before the Throne of God interceding on our behalf. After all He said that No man cometh unto the Father by Him! 





> (Joh 14:6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.





> (Rom 5:10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.





> (Heb 2:17) Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.(Heb 2:18) For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.





> (Heb 7:25) Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.





> (Mat 6:7) But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
> 
> (Mat 6:8) Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
> 
> 
> (Mat 6:9) After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
> 
> 
> (Mat 6:10) Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
> 
> 
> (Mat 6:11) Give us this day our daily bread.
> 
> 
> (Mat 6:12) And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
> 
> 
> (Mat 6:13) And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.





> (Joh 14:13) And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.





> (Joh 15:16) Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.





> (Joh 16:22) And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.
> 
> 
> (Joh 16:23) And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
> 
> 
> (Joh 16:24) Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
> 
> 
> (Joh 16:25) These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
> 
> 
> (Joh 16:26) At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
> 
> 
> (Joh 16:27) For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
> 
> 
> (Joh 16:28) I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.



Seems like we have a lot of prescription to go directly to God by a specific way. To go any other way is neglecting that and thwarting what Jesus said. It is slapping him in the face by not believing him and what He said about How God cares for us personally.


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## rookie

The big big issue with Roman Catholicism, that I remember when I was a part of it, was that for the most of them, they don't read their bible. So when they go to church, they are tough (loosely) about the lies. 

So when someone doesn't read the scripture, they are easily deceived. It's a pity, but it's the reality. And around here, the ones that do read, have the bible of Jerusalem.

They even have an "epistle to the Catholics"


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## Dennis1963

black_rose said:


> *1 Timothy 2:5* (ESV)
> _For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus..._
> 
> 
> I asked my dad yesterday why Catholics pray to Mary. Maybe it wasn't such a smart move on my part to say from the start that it's blasphemous, but dad claims there's nothing wrong with "asking the dead to pray for us." I pointed out that the Bible *specifically* says there is only one intercessor for us, and that is Jesus Christ, but he thinks otherwise. He said something along the lines of:
> 
> "Look at it this way. When you know you're in trouble with me about something, who do you go to? Your mom. You ask her to try and get you a 'lighter sentence'."
> 
> Again, that's not word-for-word, but I was apt to point out that I wouldn't *pray* to my mom.
> 
> He also said that, if it's wrong to pray to Mary, then Baptists and everyone else has it wrong by going to other people and saying, "Hey, can you pray for me?" He said that's the same thing as getting them to intercede on your behalf. To which, again, I told him that group prayer is encouraged in many different places in the Bible.
> 
> Is there anything else I missed, maybe, that would have made things more clear to him?
> 
> 
> (To Admins: Again, sorry if this is in the wrong thread. Sometimes I come up with things for the forums and I honestly just have no clue what they fall under. I will take no offense if the topic is moved.)


Roman Catholics are not "sola scriptura," they believe "sacred traditions" is unwritten scripture. And this is where they get these false gospel and practices from. This is why they have so many un-scriptural practices and make them into a doctrine. Since they teach the Pope is Peters successor, and salvation is only in the RCC who are responsible to give the world the gospel, they continue to develop new doctrines and evil practices. 

When a RC prays to Mary, know that they believe her to be the only other person besides Jesus who was born sinless, and never sinned, and finally, co-Mediator with Christ. 

Asking others to pray for us or with us is scriptural. But it is not scriptural to pray to or ask Mary to pray for us. Protestants also do not build shrines in honor of their neighborhood friend. We also do not call our friends patron saints. 

Catholicism is so far from God's word it is crazy. The only reason the pope himself does not recognize it is because he is there for a purpose. Good grief, if he did see the antichrist system he heads for what it is, I think he would come undone.

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PuritanCovenanter said:


> My question is why would anyone want to go to Mary or any other dead saint when Jesus is ever before the Throne of God interceding on our behalf. After all He said that No man cometh unto the Father by Him!



Well Jesus picked Peter as the first pope for a reason. He wanted to make sure we were not left on our own without a successor, a Vicar. The Church of Rome is the holder of all truth, if you don't believe it, just ask them.

What else would you expect from the antichrist system?


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## Don Kistler

Shannon, Mike Gendron of Proclaiming the Gospel Ministries in Dallas, TX has some great helps on his website. I'm publishing his book on Romanism right now. He was a devout Romanist for 34 years before the Lord changed his heart and opened his eyes to gospel truth.

Look them up and see if they can be of any help.


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## Marrow Man

JennyG said:


> I think now he was just running with the hare and hunting with the hounds



What a delightful Scottish expression! That sounds much better than the American "he wants to have his cake and eat it to."


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## JennyG

Marrow Man said:


> Originally Posted by JennyG
> I think now he was just running with the hare and hunting with the hounds
> What a delightful Scottish expression! That sounds much better than the American "he wants to have his cake and eat it to."


why, thank you, Tim!
though we do use the cake version too


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