# Schizophrenia



## Wannabee

Do you guys think that schizophrenia, manic depression or any of the other psychological diagnosis can be considered a disease? 

Questions to consider:
What is the definition of disease?
What are the symptoms of (put your psych. disorder here, i.e. schizophrenia, et. al.)?
Does this meet the criteria?
Is it treatable?
How?
etc.


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## Scot

Disease is "an impairment of the normal state of the living animal or plant body that affects the performances of the vital functions: sickness"

I believe that we can classify mental disorders as "diseases."

There are a wide variety of symptoms for these disorders (depression, anxiety, suicidal tendencies, nervousness, etc.)and I believe that most cases are treatable.

How?
It would probably depend on each individual case. I believe (looking at this from an alternative or natural perspective) that the majority of cases involve glucose imbalances (low blood sugar) and allergies (usually hidden). 

I'm trying to think of a book that I read about two years ago. I pretty sure it was called "Food & Behaviour." I wish I could remember the author but it escapes me now. It was by a women (I think she is a corrections officer) that works with violent and mentally unstable kids. She was able to successfully treat a large percentage with diet changes (hypoglycemic diet).

Of course, there could be others factors involved. One thing's for sure, these illnesses are not the result of a Prozac
or Zoloft deficiency.


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## Bladestunner316




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## Wannabee

Scot,

I appreciate your response. A couple of observations (that might even be questions  ). 

I think your definition of disease is good, except I would make it more clear that a disease has to have "observable physical" characteristics. Diseases affect the body. They can affect the mind as a symptom, but they always affect the body directly.

Having said that, and in resonse to your observations regarding sugar levels as well as other measurable imbalances in the body, any mental challenge that can be diagnosed as being caused by a physical problem is no longer a psychological disorder. It is a physical disorder that has mental symptoms. It should be treatable by a medical doctor.

This is important because it determines how we will minister to people.

If someone comes to you and says "I'm depressed" what do you do? Put them on meds? Of course not. Generally, if someone is depressed it's because of the way that they're handling their circumstances. That's a generalization. We also have to recognize that God uses depression in our lives to mold us and shape us. I know that many of us go through depressions, and many great godly men have struggled with this particular challenge. If it isn't caused by a phyical ailment of some sort then it isn't a disease though. 

Same goes for any other psychological diagnosis. A great resource to read up on this is "The Christian Conselor's Medical Desk Reference" by Dr. Robert Smith. While in many points his application of Scripture is inaccurate, he does a great job of explaining the difference between medical science and psychology. Generally, a person who claims or exhibits a "psychological disorder" that does not show any physical cause has a sin issue. It's a matter of them needing heeling of their minds, which only God's Word can do. Usually these people are said to have a "chemical imbalance." Problem is, there is no test to prove it, so they take drugs that take away their perception of their struggle, but not the root cause. 

It may be our inability to deal with sin or life's circumstances (which is a failure to trust in God - i.e. sin) or it may be God moving in our lives to shape us and humble us.

Something to think about.


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## Scott Bushey

Joe,
Not all diseases present themselves visibly, i.e hepatitis, Alzheimers. Blood diseases are generally naked to the eye. Chemical imbalances can be verified through lab tests. Depression is not the same thing as a chemical imbalance. Both can be dealt with spiritually, but one of the two needs (typically) medical intervention. For instance, if one of the brethren had a laceration, we would not pray over it for closure. 

As ministers, It is our responsibility to utilize all of Gods gifts. For instance, if a person I am ministering to has signs of chronic depression; that is, even after ministering to this individual on a number of occasions I do not see any efficacy to that which we have talked about, I would then inquire in regards to health deficiencies and refer the person to his practitioner for a evaluation. 

I would not abandon the council and prayer we had embarked upon. I would use the doctor as a tool to eliminate the idea that there was something physically wrong that may be compromising our work. This is not to imply something physical could ever undermine the power of God; it couldn't! It is quite possible that the Lord was chastening this individual or using this season to draw this individual closer to himself.

Joe,
I know that not everyone has a handle on this as not everyone has medical knowledge. It might be difficult for you or some of your colleagues to think along these lines based upon the fact that they are not in the field. This is why I believe it is important and also prevalent in most assemblies where there are medical people whom can be used as consultants in this regard.

Ultimately, everything has a spiritual root system. The fall caused sin and sin causes sickness and disease.....

Hope this helps.



[Edited on 12-4-2004 by Scott Bushey]


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## Scot

The problem that I find myself in at times since I'm in the health field is wanting to minister to spiritual needs as well. I've had a good many people come to me with the problems discussed (anxiety, depression, etc.). I've only given one lady some biblical literature on depression because she professed up front to be a christian. 

What should I do with people? People come to me for nutritional/health advice to help correct underlying problems so they can get off of meds. They're not coming for spiritual advice. I realize these problems are sometimes only spiritual (although a great majority are correctable through nutrition). Should I suggest spiritual counseling if it's evident that the problem isn't health related?

What if the person is Catholic? I'm not going to tell them to go to their priest! Should I use the time that they're paying me for to give them the gospel? Most people (as we all know) will be unreceptive to that.

Any thoughts guys?

Just as an interesting side note, a couple of years ago my doctor (not medical), discovered that a patient's depression was coming from a dairy allergy. When she stopped the dairy her depression left. My doctor always says "Anything can cause anything."


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## hhtuck

*Psychiatry*

Hey guys-
This is really interesting to me since I just got done with my 6-wk Psychiatry rotation (I'm a 3rd year Med Student). I saw a lot of depression, schizophrenia, post-traumatic stress disorder, bipolar disorder, etc. I was on an inpatient unit. Most of the patients had serious impairments which improved dramatically over the course of a few days of medication. There were some others though that definitely had deeper issues to deal with (especially drunkeness).

Psychiatric conditions are really scary. I hope that I ever have one of those diseases I'll have both godly people to minister to me and competent doctors to treat me.


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## Scott Bushey

Exactly Jay!


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## Wannabee

Hi Scott,

Everything you said matches up exactly with what I said. My point was that we have to be careful to separate psychiatry from medicine, and that in light of this psychiatry is not what we need. What is needed is godly counsel. If there are tests that verify a physical ailment then it is no longer a psychological issue. Your post seems to agree with this assessment in the substance of what you say, however you seem to think that we are not in agreement (either you misundestood me, I misunderstood you, or we are not in agreement). If it is found that a certain case of schizophrenia is caused by pituitary trouble then it is not a psychological issue, it is a medical issue. The question is, "How will the doctors treat it?"

Psychiatry deals with what and how someone thinks. It deals with their minds, which is the realm of God, not popsychiatry. Psychiatry has usurped the role of the man (or woman) of God in ministering to peoples' souls. Sure, drugs will mask the symptoms, but they do not deal with the cause. If I'm depressed and take Prozac then I've attacked the depression, not the cause of the depression. If there are no physical problems causing the symptoms then we have a sin issue, not a medical one. The symptoms of these may be dealt with by taking drugs, but they can't be cured by medical science, nor psychiatry for that matter (which is NOT medical science). 

Bottom line - See a medical doctor for your body. See your pastor or other trusted believers for your heart, soul, mind, might, manner of life, and the way to handle sufferings.

[Edited on 6-12-2004 by Wannabee]


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## Scott Bushey

Agreed Joe!


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## larryjf

I believe there is a huge spiritual dimension to mental disorders.

I was a manic-depressive until God healed me of it.
For years i was on heavy doses of lithium.
Then one day while praying, the Lord put on my heart to stop taking my meds because He has taken care of it.
I have not had any medication since (it's been years), and i praise God for His immeasurable mercy!


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## Scott Bushey

> _Originally posted by larryjf_
> I believe there is a huge spiritual dimension to mental disorders.
> 
> I was a manic-depressive until God healed me of it.
> For years i was on heavy doses of lithium.
> Then one day while praying, the Lord put on my heart to stop taking my meds because He has taken care of it.
> I have not had any medication since (it's been years), and i praise God for His immeasurable mercy!



Larry,
Yours is a rare situation. Would you suggest that other schizophrenics move in the same direction? There are droves of Christians that are on medicines. The fall is the cause. Do you believe it is not Gods will that I am on heart medicine? I do not really understand what you mean by, "The Lord put it on my heart to stop tking your meds..."?

[Edited on 1-1-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## larryjf

Scott,

I would not recommend that people go off their medicine just because i did. God works with us all in different ways. I think that it is only because of the grace of God that we have these wonderful medicines that can help people.



> I do not really understand what you mean by, "The Lord put it on my heart to stop tking your meds..."?



When i pray to God i don't only talk, i also listen. When i was praying to God He told me to go off my meds.
He didn't actually "speak" to me, but i don't know of a better word to describe it since "he put it on my heart" was confusing to you.

The bottom lines was that after my prayer, i was assured of God's healing touch in this area of my life.

This is a praise to God. The fact that i am actually healed speaks volumes as to God's healing power.

And, yes it is because of the fall. But that does not mean that there is no spiritual dimension to it.

Whether or not it is spiritual makes no difference in God's ability to heal - with or without medicine. But that's God's call, not ours. We cannot just decide to go off medicine, it must be God's choice.

Look at how Jesus healed lunatics in Mat 4:24 and 17:15


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## Scott Bushey

> _Originally posted by larryjf_
> Scott,
> 
> I would not recommend that people go off their medicine just because i did. God works with us all in different ways. I think that it is only because of the grace of God that we have these wonderful medicines that can help people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do not really understand what you mean by, "The Lord put it on my heart to stop tking your meds..."?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When i pray to God i don't only talk, i also listen. When i was praying to God He told me to go off my meds.
> He didn't actually "speak" to me, but i don't know of a better word to describe it since "he put it on my heart" was confusing to you.
> 
> The bottom lines was that after my prayer, i was assured of God's healing touch in this area of my life.
> 
> This is a praise to God. The fact that i am actually healed speaks volumes as to God's healing power.
> 
> And, yes it is because of the fall. But that does not mean that there is no spiritual dimension to it.
> 
> Whether or not it is spiritual makes no difference in God's ability to heal - with or without medicine. But that's God's call, not ours. We cannot just decide to go off medicine, it must be God's choice.
> 
> Look at how Jesus healed lunatics in Mat 4:24 and 17:15
Click to expand...


Larry,
Thanks for your response. I am curious. Were you not diagnosed by medical professionals? I am in the field and I know that chemical imbalances are verified via lab values. If God did in fact heal you, would He not have confirmed that through the medical professionals whom implemented the medicinal therapy? Please understand me, I am not trying to challenge your faith here, but alot of people read these threads. 

You mention Jesus and how He healed the lunatic. Agreed. God still heals today in like manner. However, in my case, I would only come off the heart medicine I take if a doctor verified God did in fact heal me, i.e. lab tests, ultrasounds, stress tests etc.

[Edited on 1-1-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## larryjf

> Larry,
> Thanks for your response. I am curious. Were you not diagnosed by medical professionals? I am in the field and I know that chemical imbalances are verified via lab values. If God did in fact heal you, would He not have confirmed that through the medical professionals whom implemented the medicinal therapy? Please understand me, I am not trying to challenge your faith here, but alot of people read these threads.



There are no "chemical" tests for manic depression (at least not when i was diagnosed). But i was diagnosed by 4 professionals. 
The first one to speak to me was a psychologist.
Since he could not prescribe medicine, he sent me to a psychiatrist - who agreed with his diagonsis of bipolar disorder.
Then, he moved out of town, and his replacement took over my case - and he agreed with the diagnosis.
When my insurance plans changed because of a new job, i got a new psychiatrist who also agreed with the diagnosis.
The only reason i do not have the "medical profession" confirming this is because in the last year or 2 of my bipolar disorder i was not seeing a psychiatrist, but receiving meds from my GP (that's another story altogether - my psychiatrist actually told me not to come see him any more, kind of strange, huh?)



> You mention Jesus and how He healed the lunatic. Agreed. God still heals today in like manner. However, in my case, I would only come off the heart medicine I take if a doctor verified God did in fact heal me, i.e. lab tests, ultrasounds, stress tests etc.


I agree whole-heartily. I was a young christian at the time, and would handle things differently at this stage of my christian life. If the same thing were to have happened to me now, I would have consulted my doctor about going off of the meds, and allowed him to monitor me however he wanted to.
Me just "going off" the meds was more a result of my spiritual immaturity.


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## Wannabee

> There are no "chemical" tests for manic depression (at least not when i was diagnosed). But i was diagnosed by 4 professionals.
> The first one to speak to me was a psychologist.
> Since he could not prescribe medicine, he sent me to a psychiatrist - who agreed with his diagonsis of bipolar disorder.
> Then, he moved out of town, and his replacement took over my case - and he agreed with the diagnosis.
> When my insurance plans changed because of a new job, i got a new psychiatrist who also agreed with the diagnosis.


Good observation Larry. If there were verifiable tests to PROVE your condition was a chemical imbalance then it would no longer be in the realm of psychiatry. It would be a medical issue and treatable by a medical doctor. Purely psychological diagnosis are based on theories and hypothesis, not on proven medical facts. This is why any behavioral disorders that cannot be irrufutably tested by the medical profession should be dealt with on a spiritual level. The psychiatric field has usurped the roll of the Word of God as applied by His faithful servants.


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## Scott Bushey

The human brain is complex. It is not surprising that medical science has little knowledge of what goes wrong there outside of the obvious, i.e. tumors etc. I believe it is inaccurate to say that these psychosis are only spiritual. For instance, it is a proven medical fact that by applying a chemical, the _proposed_ lack of chemical, i.e. chemical imbalance, is 9 out of 10 times resolved. The patients are no longer manic, they no longer hear voices and the paranoia which was so prevalent is virtually gone. The medical community at large is on this page. schizophrenia's and depression are linked to a lack of certain chemical compounds in the brain. Even if we as believers want to believe that these disorders are spiritually based, why is it that non spiritually based therapies, i.e. medicines, work so effectively? Who is to say that God does not intend to use these medicines to deal with the spiritual dysfunction. Just because it is something that occurs within the archives of our mind does not make it a non physical disorder. The mind and our physicallities are Inextricably linked.


[Edited on 1-1-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## turmeric

Hold on, hold on...The Bible says that Jesus cured demoniacs -either He did or didn't, either that was the cause of their symptoms or it wasn't. We believe that the original autographs are inerrent, so we don't have much of a choice here. Let's don't throw the baby out w/the bathwater.

Obviously, there are chemical imbalances that should, if we knew more, be treatable by the family doctor or a neurologist, but there's always a spiritual component to anything that happens to us because we are spiritual as well as biological.

I'm sure what Larry experienced was a physical healing of his brain. Why it happened to him and not someone else, I don't know. It's on a long list of things I don't know.


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## fredtgreco

I have to say that while I do believe there are actual medical conditions that result in mental/spiritual issues, and that can be solved by medical means (i.e. surgery or medicine), I have never been impressed with the "chemical imbalance." As far as I know, this is a huge catch all category used by secular science to describe "we have no idea what this is, but it can't be spiritual or the result of sin - since sin doesn't exist."

The medicines prescribed in such instances are mere symptom masking, and often only work for a short while. Ed Welch's book _Blame it on the Brain_ is an excellent nouthetic resource.


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## larryjf

The "seperation" between the physical and spiritual worlds is something of western thought, and i don't think that it was the mindset of or Lord Jesus Christ.

He walked through this world as if the physical and spiritual were inseperablely joined together. We never hear Him saying "is this a spiritual or physical problem?"

The idea that things are either of the spiritual or physical can undermine the fact that Jesus is Lord of *all*.

The real question is, "what is the ultimate reality?" - and i would have to say that the spiritual is the ultimate reality.

In the bible the spirit world is everywhere, and in every day life.

The post-apostolic fathers took the realm of the demonic so seriously that they automatically took new converts from paganism through rites of deliverance from evil supernaturalism.

To me the notion of "that is a physical problem" is really just an excuse - i think the spiritual trumps the physical.

Let us not forget that the warfare we are involved with is that of the spirit.

*2Co 10:4 - For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. *

I think when we try to fight in the flesh (physical world) or focus has been shifted.


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## turmeric

*But Let\'s DO Throw Out the Bathwater!*

There's a lot of this "deliverance" that ends up being deliverance _to_ rather than deliverance _from_. It is impossible for a believer to be demon-possessed as the Holy Spirit is in residence; however a believer can be very "mentally ill" and it may be for spiritual reasons. I think we should always pray for someone in such a trial and assume that God can heal and may see fit to do so, however I don't think "deliverance" , as practiced by some groups, needs to be a formal part of everyone's conversion experience - the Holy Spirit makes the regenerate heart a hostile place for demons! The reason we struggle with temptation is that Satan can find something in us - which unfortunately is part of us- that he can appeal to.


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## Scott Bushey

Fred, 
What you say is true. It is also my belief that the term C.I. is probably used to describe a laundry list of symptoms. Whether they are a result of sin or not is irrelelvent to the fact that there are generally positive results from the medical community and that which they prescribe, i.e. medicines. It would be one thing if in fact, the results were hit or miss, but they are not. It is a fact that generally speaking, schizophrenics respond positively to a family of medicines. These medicines do not just zombify the recipients. The patients have massively lowered symptoms, and very few side effects, i.e. dry mouth, insomnia. 

Having said this, could it be solely spiritual? Is a cancer? An Arthritis? An allergy? My heart condition? Surely it can be possible. But God sometimes uses the mud and spit of physicians to restore his saints.......leaning to one side or the other too much can be error. Those things which can be measured with a measuring stick should be dealt with in said manner. Those things which can't, well thats another story; let us pray. However, in the case of the mind and it's so called conditions, notice how the schizophrenia's are a medical conundrum, yet they respond well to medicinal therapies. To say that just because they have no measuring stick to guage the disorder, then it must be a spiritual condition solely is in my opinion, silly and doesn't reflect any less or more faith than the saint who goes for the medicines to treat the disease than the one that doesn't.

Jesus the apothecarian:

Joh 9:6 Saying these things, He spat on the ground and made clay out of the spittle, and anointed clay on the blind one's eyes. 
Joh 9:7 And He said to him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, which translated is Sent. Then he went and washed, and came seeing. 

Mar 7:32 And they bring unto him one that was deaf, and had an impediment in his speech; and they beseech him to put his hand upon him. 
Mar 7:33 And he took him aside from the multitude, and put his fingers into his ears, and he spit, and touched his tongue; 
Mar 7:34 And looking up to heaven, he sighed, and saith unto him, Ephphatha, that is, Be opened. 
Mar 7:35 And straightway his ears were opened, and the string of his tongue was loosed, and he spake plain. 

Mar 8:22 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 
Mar 8:23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 
Mar 8:24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 


[Edited on 1-1-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## Scott Bushey

Meg,
I have to tell you; I believe what you say above. It seems that when I am at myy worst, that is when the enemy attacks that physical defect in my body. 

~You know the word of faithers swear by this idea. "Don't even mention it, the devil will hear you- claim the healing, by the blood of Jesus". 

*I am no way mocking the w.o.f. movement in many ways. I do claim the blood of Jesus on my infirmiries, and as meg said, I believe we could be a tad selective in that which drive us to unfaithfulness.


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## Wannabee

Scott, I am apposed to much of what you've said simply because the mind is the soul. This is not the realm of shrinks, it is the realm of God's Word, and if properly applied the we have spiritual victory. Psychiatry simply is not medicine, in fact it isn't even science by definition.


> Who is to say that God does not intend to use these medicines to deal with the spiritual dysfunction.


Think about this for a minute. If we are to take this tack then we are denying the sufficiency of Scripture. Simply put, "disfunction" itself is a term without spiritual application. Furthermore, this claim says that those who are without access to these medications are incapable of spiritual victory... or that only those with access to these medications have the types of spiritual conditions that these medications treat. This takes us away from applying God's Word to treat sin. That's what it all comes down to. Psychologists administer drugs to treat sin and build self esteem. This simply doesn't work, and denigrates the Gospel.


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## Scott Bushey

> _Originally posted by Wannabee_
> Scott, I am apposed to much of what you've said simply because the mind is the soul. This is not the realm of shrinks, it is the realm of God's Word, and if properly applied the we have spiritual victory.



Joe,
What do you mean, "properly applied"? Victory everytime? What if God decree's the illness? 



> Psychiatry simply is not medicine, in fact it isn't even science by definition.



Joe, just to clearify; Psychiatry is medicine. These people are medical professionals. Are you confusing psychiatry with psychology? How have you come to this conclusion? Is it because the mind is so mysterious and based upon that, since no one can know the mind, it must all be quackery?

If someone in your family was schizophrenic, where would you send them? To a neurologist??? He'd just refer you out to a psychiatrist. You didn't respond to the fact that these _mysterious_ disorders are generally cured when these non medical professionals apply medicine. Who is to say that God does not intend to use these medicines to deal with the spiritual dysfunction. (There's that 'd' word again)



> Think about this for a minute. If we are to take this tack then we are denying the sufficiency of Scripture. Simply put, "disfunction" itself is a term without spiritual application.



Joe, I disagree. Did not Timothy have a stomach dysfunction?

1Ti 5:23 (No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.) ESV

dysÂ·funcÂ·tion also disÂ·funcÂ·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ds-fngkshn)
n. 
*Abnormal or impaired functioning, especially of a bodily system or social group.*

Why would you think my approach denies the sufficiency of scripture? Please expound?




> Furthermore, this claim says that those who are without access to these medications are incapable of spiritual victory or that only those with access to these medications have the types of spiritual conditions that these medications treat.




Joe,
All diseases and _dysfunctions_ are secondary to the fall. Cancers are. Can anyone have spiritual victory over these things without the medicines; yes, if God wills. Generally, how is cancer treated though? If I was dx w/ cancer, I know John MacArthur would not tell me to just pray about it and wait upon the Lord. How many people do you know who have not had chemo or radiation for their cancers? It would be an injustice for a believer to not get treatment. God has gifted our doctors, as he has our politicians, we should use them to our benefit. I am not saying that people without these avenues are at an disadvantage. I believe God deals with these events seperately.



> This takes us away from applying God's Word to treat sin. That's what it all comes down to. Psychologists administer drugs to treat sin and build self esteem. This simply doesn't work, and denigrates the Gospel.



Joe, did not the apostle tell timothy to take some wine for his stomach? Luke was a doctor. Jesus used mud and spit. Was there not such a thing in Israel as "balm"? I suggest you do a search on the term 'balm'; you will see that it is no less spiritual to use medicine as it is if you don't. From what you pose, anyone whom takes medicine has a lack of faith. Don't you think that Believers whom have cancers are persevering with prayer also. How about those Christian doctors whom are praying with their patients for the 'balm' to glorify God. I do not see how you think that by taking medicine it is contra-biblical or less glorifying to God.

Am I misunderstanding you?


[Edited on 1-3-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## turmeric

There's such a thing as common grace! What's this "spiritual victory" stuff?


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## fredtgreco

Scott,

I believe it is completely possible to deal effectively with the symptoms by means of medication in "chemical imbalance" situations. But dealing with the symptoms is not the same as the cause. There are medicines that can make the gravely ill person feel fine until he drops dead.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Scott Bushey

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> Scott,
> 
> I believe it is completely possible to deal effectively with the symptoms by means of medication in "chemical imbalance" situations. But dealing with the symptoms is not the same as the cause.



Fred,
All disease is secondary to the fall-right? Cancers etc? Just because I have not extrapulated the need for prayer initially as well as continually throughout the treatment series does not mean I discount it and it's result. Take for granted (since I am a believer) this is how I think. Now, does this change my thinking in regards to plan of treatment? No. As I have said previously, I believe God ordains and decree's; even the doctors, nurses and treatments. All health issues are dealt with and measured (generally) symptomatically. Medicine is a practice. It is based upon gathering information resulting in an outcome. Sometimes, dealing with the symptom, treating the symptom IS dealing with the cause. Example: Mr. Smith is chronically tired. He goes to Dr. Scott. Dr Scott performs the generall exams, i.e physical, scans, labwork. The labs reveal Mr. Smith has an under active thyroid. Dr. Scott prescribes thyroid replacement therapy. I digress a tad. What is the true cause of Mr. Smiths non functioning thyroid disorder? Well, that lies in the genetic strand and ultimately in the lap of the Lord. Should it be dealt with prayer-yes. Faith-yes. Without medicine? No! Who says that God has not decreed the medicine??? Mr. Smith's fatigue is generally dealt with. Dealing with the symptom has dealt with the cause....



> There are medicines that can make the gravely ill person feel fine until he drops dead.



This is the normal pattern to deal with the _gravely_ ill. Generally, the patient is placed in a palative setting, i.e. hospice care. In laymens terms, what you describe is called "snowing" the patient. It is a merciful and caring treatment option that is left up to the patient and family. Example: Patient 'A' has an incurable cancer. The cancer causes severe pain. Tx: morphine. No more pain, no more cares. In many ways, God uses even this as one of His graces. Why should people be in intractable pain? Fred, I believe you are misunderstanding me possibly. What would your plan of treatment be?



[Edited on 1-4-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## Wannabee

Scott,

You did misunderstand me a little. By definition a desease is physical, not mental. It can affect one mentally, but the cause is physical. In this case their is a medical treatment of some sort. 

In the case of the mind though, there are no tests to prove that there is a chemical imballance. Even psychologists admit that most of what they do is simply trial and error. They cannot prove that someone suffering from a certain "mental dosorder" is the "victim" of chemical imballance. It's all based on hypothesis. Please research this. I'm not just making this up or relying on some back alley information. 
"The Christian Counselor's Medical Desk Reference" would be a good place to start. "A Theology of Christian Counseling" would also be a good read, as well as "Introduction to Biblical Counseling."

If I had a family member who was "diagnosed" with clinical depression or some other illness I would send them to a medical doctor to be tested for any physical causes and treat it as a spiritual condition. If the doctor could find nothing I would NEVER send them to a psychologist (I do understand the difference, but find neither any more palatable ). Psychiatry (or psychology) and the Gospel are simply incompatible.



And as for the "spiritual victory" comment. The only spiritual victory is through the Gospel, not through drugs! That was the point.

[Edited on 4-1-2005 by Wannabee]

[Edited on 4-1-2005 by Wannabee]


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## fredtgreco

Scott,

My reference to symptom masking medicines would not be with respect to those who are incurable and simply made "comfortable." I am referring to those who mask the symptoms because they think there is no cause. Those who believe in psychology and psychiatry do not believe in sin. There is ONLY a medical solution. Therefore they believe all that is to be done is to get rid of the symptom. It may very well be (often is) that God uses that symptom to highlight the fact that there is a real problem.

We have bad things happen to us for a reason. What would you think of a doctor who came up with a medicine that completely did away with the pain of burning? There is a reason that we experience pain when we are burned. It is so we take our hand from the source of the heat, which is damaging us. The pain is not the worst thing - the damage to our skin, nerves, etc is.

I echo Joe's comments. If you haven't read Jay Adam's books, you should do so. As I said, Ed Welch (who is a family GP with 40+ years of experience) also has excellent material, including "Blame it on the Brain"


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## turmeric

We all sin but presumably it doesn't cause schizophrenia in all of us. Schizophrenia is a result of the Fall. I think it's being used as an umbrella term for a host of problems with various causes, everything from dietary imbalance to demon-possession. So, some of it probably has a physical cause and should be dealt with by a physician, some of it is possibly spiritual in some cases. We just can't pontificate about everyone, (she pontificates)


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## fredtgreco

> _Originally posted by turmeric_
> We all sin but presumably it doesn't cause schizophrenia in all of us. Schizophrenia is a result of the Fall. I think it's being used as an umbrella term for a host of problems with various causes, everything from dietary imbalance to demon-possession. So, some of it probably has a physical cause and should be dealt with by a physician, some of it is possibly spiritual in some cases. We just can't pontificate about everyone, (she pontificates)



Understood. And that is why I was referring specifically to "chemical imbalance" which I honestly think is a crock (as a purely medical problem). There certainly are mental problems that have physical as opposed to (or in addition to) spiritual causes.


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## turmeric

It's probably a bad guess at a problem like some of the bad medical guesses we used to make before we understood about germs, when we thought there were four humors in the body.


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## Scott Bushey

Meg is understanding exactly what I am proposing. Fred, it seems as if you and Joe are leaning into the idea that just because science cannot measure something with the ruler they have, that it is neccesarilly, by default, spiritual. In that regard, all medical disorders are ultimately spiritual. Should we then deal with all medical issues spiritually? No, some disorders call for medicines. Your idea that chemical imbalances is a crock is purely opinion. The medical community does not believe it is just a crock, and based upon their expertise, it is not just an opinion. 



> Those who believe in psychology and psychiatry do not believe in sin.



This is an unfair generalization. All psychiatrists and all psychologists???

I will add, no one addressed the fact that by and large, most all schizophrenics respond to medicinal treatment. It does not mask; it actually removes the symptoms. No you say, they are not treating the cause, just the symptom. I say, by treating the symptom, the cause is alleviated and ultiamtely cured.




> I am referring to those who mask the symptoms because they think there is no cause.



Fred,
What does this mean? I have never met a doctor who gave medicine without a diagnosis attached. Diagnosis=cause.




> We have bad things happen to us for a reason. What would you think of a doctor who came up with a medicine that completely did away with the pain of burning? There is a reason that we experience pain when we are burned. It is so we take our hand from the source of the heat, which is damaging us. The pain is not the worst thing - the damage to our skin, nerves, etc is.



How shall I apply the above statement? 


[Edited on 1-4-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## Scott Bushey

> _Originally posted by Wannabee_
> Scott,
> 
> You did misunderstand me a little. By definition a desease is physical, not mental.



Who told you that? Why do you think they call it mental disease.

disÂ·ease ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-zz)
n. 
A pathological condition of a part, organ, or system of an organism resulting from various causes, such as infection, genetic defect, or environmental stress, and characterized by an identifiable group of signs or symptoms. 
A condition or tendency, as of society, regarded as abnormal and harmful. 
Obsolete. Lack of ease; trouble. 




> It can affect one mentally, but the cause is physical. In this case their is a medical treatment of some sort.



You say it has a physical cause; that means that something 'physically' is wrong, i.e. my arm hurts. I fell on it; there is a broken bone. The pain affects me 'mentally', physically, the broken bone is the problem.



> In the case of the mind though, there are no tests to prove that there is a chemical imballance.



This is not 100% accurate Joe. In fact, there are studies that have shown that there is genetic defects in many cases of mental disorder and that of the 100 or so chemicals/compounds that are running rampant in our brains, there are certain groups of these chemicals missing from the equation is the schizophrenic. In the same way science treats a common cold, i.e we treat the symptoms, the same method is applied for the mental defficient. Tell me this, why is it that in the majority of manic depressive cases, these cases respond favorably to a simple salt, Lithium? The voices go away, the paranoia disappears......?



> Even psychologists admit that most of what they do is simply trial and error.



Ever wonder why they call it 'practicing' medicine? I hate to break this to you Joe, but this is how medicine is. The doctors are _practicing_ medicine (on you and I). They are practicing and will remain practicing. Treatments are generally hit or miss. Patient arrives with complaints, labs and scans are done, therapies applied. One doesn't work, try therapy number 2, and so on and so forth.



> They cannot prove that someone suffering from a certain "mental dosorder" is the "victim" of chemical imballance. It's all based on hypothesis.



Not 100% true. Do a google on schizophrenia and manic disorders. Read the _medical_ lit and studies, not the opinionated stuff. see above. 

Joe, viruses were only proven by electron microscope in the 1950's; prior to that the common cold was hypothesis.....




> Please research this. I'm not just making this up or relying on some back alley information.




Joe, you're kidding me right? You know I have been a nurse for most of my life. I have worked in almost every sope of medicine. 




> If I had a family member who was "diagnosed" with clinical depression or some other illness I would send them to a medical doctor to be tested for any physical causes and treat it as a spiritual condition.



So you would treat a 'physical' cause as spiritual? Joe, just because science has not conquered the great frontier does not mean it is not physical. 100 years ago, you would have said cancer was spiritual to, based upon your approach. 




> If the doctor could find nothing I would NEVER send them to a psychologist (I do understand the difference, but find neither any more palatable ). Psychiatry (or psychology) and the Gospel are simply incompatible.



I agree with you in regards to psychology. I do not agree with you in regards to the idea that the gospel and psychiatry are incompatable. You don;t feel this way about medical doctors!


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## Wannabee

Scott,

I think the first thing we need to do is separate the mind from the body. You seem to be claiming that they are the same thing. They are not. The body is the physical, including the brain. The mind is the soul, or spirit. We need to keep them separate. Of course they affect each other, but they are different. 

If I am living a habitually sinful lifestyle then there will probably be physical ramifications. We can treat these symptoms, but the cause will still be present. That is because the cause is spiritual. It is because of sin, not because of some disease. A psychologist will look at the person as a victim of circumstances, not as a fallen creature who must repent. He will prescribe a drug that will hide the symptom of the ramification of the sin, but the sin will still be there and will cause further problems. Of course these drugs help the person cope, but they do not cure the person.

If we have cancer it we might have spiritual symptoms as well. This is usually because we don't handle the disease in a biblical way. We must see all our circumstances under the sovereignty of God. Any and all aspects of our life are directly controlled by God. All challenges must be met with God and His glory as the main objective. A psychologist will see the person as a victim and try to help them cope. We don't want to cope, we strive to be overcomers, not merely attain the status quo. When the world sees us go through trials they should stand in amazement because we don't "fit the mold."

This is not a "let go and let God" mentality. It is an aggressive Christ centered view that sees every challenge in life as an opportunity to grow in our relationship with Jesus, in our Christlikeness, in our ability to comfort others and to bring more glory to God. 

I will say though, that I will not tell someone to get off a prescribed drug. I am not a doctor. I will simply advise them to see a trusted medical doctor and let him determine the appropriate medication (or lack of).



> The goal of all counseling, whether biblical or secular, is to change people. However, all unbiblical systems, even when they speak of doing "depth" counseling, change people only at the surface level. (Jer. 6:14; Mk. 7:14-23)
> 
> 
> 
> The only person who can really operate at a level of depth is a person who knows how to go to the heart of a man's problem. And the only way to go to the heart of aman's problem is through the Gospel of Jesus Christ ministered in the power of the Holy Spirit, who transforms the heart of man and thus transforms his life petterns - Jay Adams
> 
> 
> 
> From Stuart Scott
Click to expand...

and


> The Westminster Confession of Faith - ch 16, sect. 7
> Works done by unregenerate men, although for the matter of them they may be things which God commands: and of good use both to themselves and others: yet, because they proceed not from an heart purified by faith; nore are done in a right manner, according to the Word; nor to a right end, the glory of God, they are therefore sinful, and cannot please God, or make a man meet to receive grace form God: and yet, their neghlect of them is more sinful and displeasing unto God


Check out this from "Time Magazine."


> On every front, psychiatry seems to be on the defensive.... Many psychiatrists want to abondon treatment of ordinary, everyday neurotics ("the worried well") to psychologists and the amateur Pop therapists. After all, does it take a hard-won M.D. degree... to chat sympathetically and tell apatient you're-much-too-hard-on-yourself? And if psychiatry is a medical teratment, why can its practitioners not provide measurable scientific results like those obtained by other doctors?
> Psychiatrists themselves acknowledge that their profession often smacks of modern alchemy full of jargon, obfuscation and mystification, but precious little real knowledge...
> As always, psychiatrists are their own severest critic. Thomas Azasz, long the most outspoken gadfly of his profession, insists that there is really no such thing as mental illness, only normal problems of living. E. Fuller Torrey, another antipsychiatry psychiatrist, is willing to concede that there are a few brain diseases, like schizophrenia, but says they can be treated with only a handful of drugs that could be administered by general practitioners or internists... By contrast, the Scottish psychiatrist and poet R. D. Laing is sure that schizophrenia is real and that it is good for you. [] Explains Laing: it is a kind of psychedelic epiphany, far superior to normal experience.
> Even mainline practitioners are unceratin that psychiatry can tell the insane from the sane
> "Psychiatry on the Couch" Time - 2 April 1979.


This from a secular magazine.

This simple fact is that we are not victims. We are all guilty and there is only one "cure" for our condition. Psychotherapy addresses the attitude about sin, claiming that the "victim" is okay. The medicine takes away the reality of the fallen condition, aiding the fallen man in believing that he is okay. His self esteem is puffed up, removing any sense of guilt. When man is puffed up, God is denigrated. Man's sinful state must be shown for what it is, not candy coated or blame shifted to the environment, parents, catastrophy or any other outside source. The Bible focuses on the guilt, the cause and the cure. 

Some more good resources:
a) John Blanchard, Ultimate Questions (Evangelical Press)
b) Philip Tait, The Real Thing (Grace Publications Trust)
c) John MacArthur, The Gospel According to Jesus (Zondervan)
d) John MacArthur, Saved Without a Doubt (Victor)
e) John MacArthur, "Examine Yourself" 
f) Walter Chantry, Today's Gospel (Banner of Truth)
g) C. John Miller, Repentance and the 20th Century Man (Christian Literature Crusade)
h) Joseph Alleine, A Sure Guide to Heaven (The Banner of Truth Trust)
i) Ernest C. Reisinger, What Should We Think of the Carnal Christian (The Banner of Truth Trust)
j) Sinclair B. Ferguson, Healthy Christian Growth (The Banner of Truth Trust)
k) Wayne A. Mack, "œSpiritual Convictions" (Evaluation Worksheet) "“ See Appendix 9
l) John MacArthur, Faith Works (Word)
m) John B. Leuzarder, The Gospel for Children 
n) "œThe Character of Genuine Saving Faith," from The MacArthur Study Bible
o) David Martyn Lloyd-Jones, Out of the Depths: Restoring Fellowship with God (Good News )
p) Jim Elliff, Seeking After God


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## Wannabee

I didn't mean to offend.


> Joe, you're kidding me right? You know I have been a nurse for most of my life. I have worked in almost every sope of medicine.


Not kidding. Not assuming you don't know either. Simply an appeal. 100 years in a profession doesn't mean that one knows everything. I don't study medicine much Scott, but I also don't consider the mind to be medicine, as I shared above.



> So you would treat a 'physical' cause as spiritual? Joe, just because science has not conquered the great frontier does not mean it is not physical. 100 years ago, you would have said cancer was spiritual to, based upon your approach.


Not what I said. I said I'd refer to a medical doctor, but not psychologist etc. and deal with the mind/spiritual problem biblically. By the way, physical medicine has been around and is supported by Scripture (Paul advising wine and numerous other examples that you're probably aware of). Psychotherapy is not. Biblical counseling is.



> If the doctor could find nothing I would NEVER send them to a psychologist (I do understand the difference, but find neither any more palatable ). Psychiatry (or psychology) and the Gospel are simply incompatible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you in regards to psychology. I do not agree with you in regards to the idea that the gospel and psychiatry are incompatable. You don't feel this way about medical doctors!
Click to expand...

No, not about medical doctors.

I looked up schizophrenia on a Google search and found the same thing I've been saying. All they can point to are symptoms, no causes. Of course there will be symptoms. You refered to viruses. A person suffering from a virus has obvious physical symptoms. These conditions of the mind do not (yes I saw the scans). They are perceptions of symptoms, or the person's reactions, not physical symptoms. If I say I hear voices what does it mean? If I'm scared, what does it mean. If I can't cope, what does it mean? You can't slap a label on these "symptoms" and declare that I have a chemical imbalance. The scans do reveal symptoms, but are inconclusive. If I'm under a great deal of stress these same scans will change, and if I don't deal with it they will continue to change. 

Do we believe that Scripture is sufficient for all our faith and practice? Of course, and this is lived out when we apply it to the mind/soul.


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## Scott Bushey

Wannabee writes:


> If we have cancer it we might have spiritual symptoms as well. This is usually because we don't handle the disease in a biblical way.



How might you suggest you handle lung cancer Joe?



So, just for the record, 100 years ago when people were dying of brain cancers or organic syndromes like syphillis, since they were not measurable, they were then spiritual, but today since they are measurable, they are not? In the same way, if in 100 years schizophrenia and manic depression are measurable,you will change your position from spiritual to physical conditions?



[Edited on 1-4-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## fredtgreco

Scott,

Is homosexuality no longer a sin now that science has found a "cause" (i.e. genes) for it? How is that different?


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## Scott Bushey

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> Scott,
> 
> Is homosexuality no longer a sin now that science has found a "cause" (i.e. genes) for it? How is that different?



Fred, Science has not found conclusively that homosexuals have a different strand. That would be monumental if it were true. There are studies that hold no water. You and I both know as believers that that will never happen as God is the knitter of the strand, and we all know that God is against homosexuality. 

let me say again (I thought I had cleared this up earlier on a number of posts). All disease is secondary to the fall. Though you and I are sickened by homosexuality, it is not a disease (it will not kill you-however, HIV may, but thats secondary to the lifestyle). Gene pools are not signs of sickness, they are blueprints of individual life. Genetic flaws however can be challenged in this regard: If I took LSD when I was a wild child and altered my DNA, and this causes me to end up with brain cancer one day, I hve aquired a disease secondary to drug abuse. Just like the 'downe syndrome' child, DS is not necessarilly a disease, it is a genetic defect. It is measurable from sign and symptiom. There is no treatment to change that. It is not sin. Now if the DS child needs medicine because the defect causes the child to require say diabetes medicine (DS children do have special medical needs), is this not secondary to the genetic defect? It is measurable. Chromosome studies can prove this. In regards to the homosexual. Nothing in the genetic strand will make them outwardly ill, _physically_. based upon that, this is a red herring.


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## Wannabee

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> Wannabee writes:
> 
> 
> 
> If we have cancer it we might have spiritual symptoms as well. This is usually because we don't handle the disease in a biblical way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How might you suggest you handle lung cancer Joe?
> 
> 
> 
> So, just for the record, 100 years ago when people were dying of brain cancers or organic syndromes like syphillis, since they were not measurable, they were then spiritual, but today since they are measurable, they are not? In the same way, if in 100 years schizophrenia and manic depression are measurable,you will change your position from spiritual to physical conditions?
> 
> 
> 
> [Edited on 1-4-2005 by Scott Bushey]
Click to expand...

Organic is the key word Scott. They had obvious physical symptoms. I think I was pretty clear on this.

I'll bow out now. I think we understand each other and neither is convincing the other. Those who read can come to their own conclusions.

A few last comments.

Do we address felt/perceived needs, or genuine needs? 

Do you know if there are any documented cases of Christians who became schizophrenic? Depression gets us all, and is not always improper, but some of these conditions are much more serious. It would be interesting to know if true believers experience these symptoms.



As for your cancer question.

When Pam had cancer I held my own the first time, but caved the second time. I tried, but was not equipped to handle it. She did well the first time, but caved as well the second. The third and worst time 'round we both relied on God and saw it as an oppotunity to live out our faith. We heard testimony later of the affect we had on others because our view was God centered rather than self centered. The spiritual ramifications were depression oriented the first two times, we were defeated in a sense. The last time around we experienced tremendous spiritual growth, and marital growth as well. It was because of the Gospel Scott, plain and simple.

Again I appeal. Separate the mind from the body. The soul is no place for the secular to be meddling (reread the Westminster quote above).


Thanks for the challenging interaction Scott. It's been fun and a great chance to work through this again. Blessings to you and yours this new year.

[Edited on 4-1-2005 by Wannabee]


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