# Offended by the doctrines of grace



## ReformedWretch (Feb 17, 2005)

What do you make of one who is out right offended by the doctrines of grace? The person claims Christ, but they not only questions the DoG, but say they are offended by them.


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## Barnpreacher (Feb 17, 2005)

Adam,

Hello brother. I'm new to this forum, but if I can offer my thoughts I would say just be patient with that person. I know from experience having studied the opposite of reformed theology all my Christian life some things have been very difficult for me to try and grasp from the reformed view. I still struggle with a lot of things about the reformed theology and expect I will till I get home to glory.

When you're taught to study the Bible a certain way and then you study it that way all your Christian life it is VERY, VERY difficult to look at another view of the Scriptures. So I would just say be patient with this person. He or she sounds like they are being pretty rash by saying they are offended by the doctrines of grace. The Bible says _"Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them."_ 

But we just have to remember that TULIP/Doctrines of Grace/Predestination/Election is a complete 180 from what is being taught in many churches today. If you went into a lot of churches and tried to teach the Sovereignty of God 99% of the people wouldn't know what you were talking about. I speak from experience on that one because I've studied and have taught the opposite of the reformed theology most of my Christian life. Patience is the key.


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## ReformedWretch (Feb 17, 2005)

Welcome Ryan!

I too know of the past experiences that you speak of! But rarely have I encountered someone so hostile to the DoG that they openly say they are offended by them.


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## Barnpreacher (Feb 17, 2005)

Adam,

Thanks for the welcome, brother.

There are guys that I used to be in their "circle" if you will, that would literally call me a heretic and probably doubt my salvation if they knew the way God has opened my eyes to so much of reformed theology. That's sad, but the hostile ones are definitely out there. That hostile, haughty spirit is one of the major things that has turned me away from the independent, fundamental baptists I used to associate myself with. I just had my belly full of that kind of attitude. Now I pretty much try and ignore what they have to say.


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## Puritan Sailor (Feb 18, 2005)

Did you ask them what offended them about the DoG?


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## daveb (Feb 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> What do you make of one who is out right offended by the doctrines of grace? The person claims Christ, but they not only questions the DoG, but say they are offended by them.



In my limited experience this is quite normal when people hear of the DoG for the first time. For many people the 5 points are quite a shock. I've seen some who are very offended at first and then eventually come to embrace it over time - but this is not always the case.

Others I know hate it from the start and have not ceased to hate it. I do believe that God illumines us and I simply ask for Him to illumine them to see His truth. I think my reaction to people is based upon their maturity and level of knowlege, however, I generally try not to be overly harsh since I was once there myself.


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## Me Died Blue (Feb 18, 2005)

Usually when I hear people say something to that effect it's because they feel it propogates a God Who "violates" their so-called "freedom."



> _Originally posted by daveb_
> I've seen some who are very offended at first and then eventually come to embrace it over time - but this is not always the case.



As Dr. Sproul wittily put it, "They say there's nothing more obnoxious than a converted drunk. Try a converted Arminian."


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## JWJ (Feb 18, 2005)

I have encountered these types of people a number of times in my teaching ministry. Most are very obnoxious and hard hearted and therefore I do not hesitate to take them to the gospel of John chapter six. I expound on the fact that besides the hard teaching of “eating the flesh of the Son of Man and drinking his blood” Jesus’ also teaches both doctrines of irresistible grace and election. I then ask them to seriously rethink about their own murmurings (vs.61). Do these hard teachings offend them? (vs.61) Will they too walk back and walk no more with Christ? (vs. 66) .

Jim


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Feb 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Me Died Blue_
> As Dr. Sproul wittily put it, "They say there's nothing more obnoxious than a converted drunk. Try a converted Arminian."


Maybe it is late or something but I really do not understand that quote  It sounds interesting. Can you explain it or will it kill it?


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## Average Joey (Feb 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Abd_Yesua_alMasih_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Me Died Blue_
> ...



I think he means don`t go around boldly proclaiming the Doctrines of Grace without expecting vicious attacks from Arminians.


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## lwadkins (Feb 18, 2005)

Chris 

They fear for their percieved "automnomy," as a soveriegn God is certainly a threat to it.

As if God asked them if they wanted to "be" in the first place! 

[Edited on 2-18-2005 by lwadkins]


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## ReformedWretch (Feb 18, 2005)

By offended I mean say things like this;

"I wouldn't serve a God like that!"

"Then God causes all evil making God Satan, so I gues you serve Satan?"

"I know that I am not God's puppet!"

Some things said are so harsh I wouldn't want to post them!


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## daveb (Feb 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Me Died Blue_
> Usually when I hear people say something to that effect it's because they feel it propogates a God Who "violates" their so-called "freedom."
> 
> 
> ...



 I like it!


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## lwadkins (Feb 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> By offended I mean say things like this;
> 
> "I wouldn't serve a God like that!"
> ...



Gee, what next, a loving god wouldn't kill so many in the OT.


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## Average Joey (Feb 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by lwadkins_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by houseparent_
> ...



I think their excuse(although a contradiction) would be something like"We are in the New Testament"or somthing.These usually are the same people who say Jesus came to protect us from the Father because he is mean and Jesus loves us.


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## Me Died Blue (Feb 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Abd_Yesua_alMasih_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Me Died Blue_
> ...



By referring to converted drunks as obnoxious, he means that because their lifestyle change at salvation was such a radical shift, they just won't shut up about their love for Jesus and how much he means to them and did for them and how your life can only be the best if you accept Christ right now and...

Then he's basically saying, You think a converted drunk is obnoxiously passionate about his faith? Try a converted Arminian. The quote I gave above is followed by "Converted Arminians tend to become flaming Calvinists, zealots for the cause of predestination."


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## turmeric (Feb 18, 2005)

Has anyone else noticed the Marcion-like tendency in some Dispensationalists to radically separate the law from the Gospel, the Old from the New Testament, as if God changed in the New Testament? Maybe it's my tendency to heresy, but when I was a child, I actually thought God was mean in the Old Testament and became nice in the New!


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## Presbyrino (Feb 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by turmeric_
> Has anyone else noticed the Marcion-like tendency in some Dispensationalists to radically separate the law from the Gospel, the Old from the New Testament, as if God changed in the New Testament? Maybe it's my tendency to heresy, but when I was a child, I actually thought God was mean in the Old Testament and became nice in the New!



Yes, now that you mention, I have seen this tendency. The tendency is to treat the OT/NT distinction in a greek, gnostic sort of way as if God in the OT was the Demiurge and God in the NT was Good.


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## Average Joey (Feb 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by turmeric_
> Has anyone else noticed the Marcion-like tendency in some Dispensationalists to radically separate the law from the Gospel, the Old from the New Testament, as if God changed in the New Testament? Maybe it's my tendency to heresy, but when I was a child, I actually thought God was mean in the Old Testament and became nice in the New!



That`s exactly what I was talking about how people act today!


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## street preacher (Feb 19, 2005)

People always want to feel as if they have at least some control over any circumstance in their life. When they don't they are finished with life. It's the same with salvation. They don't like the doctrines of grace because it would mean that they are not in control of anything. The root of this is pride. This is dangerous in relating to the Lord.


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## Average Joey (Feb 19, 2005)

I must be a rarity on this board.I was born again one night and then immediately was going to a soveriegn grace church because it was what my parents attended.Around a year later I started to question calvinism and started trying to be arminian but nothing taught in arminian lined up with scripture when it speaks of God`s soveriegnty.So after a short stint in free-will land,I had to come back.I have to admit I think this was a very healthy experience spiritually.I think it was right to question what I believed for the simple reason that I believed what I did because it was the first thing I was taught in church of God.I had to go outside and confirm what was the truth and I have found that God is completely soveriegn and I am glad.Praise God!


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## Presbyrino (Feb 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> What do you make of one who is out right offended by the doctrines of grace? The person claims Christ, but they not only questions the DoG, but say they are offended by them.



I am not suprised one bit. The Doctrines of Grace are an affront to man's pride and our modern day sensibilities. The evangelical church today is steeped in modern-day pop-psychology worldview, with the driving premise of the of the church being to make it's members "feel good" or "feel comfortable" about themselves. Christ came to earth because "he has a plan for your your life", or "he want's you to have your best life now". Today's view of biblical love is "God want's me to feel good about myself, because I can't truly love other's unless I love myself first". The DoG are totally anti-thetical to the modern day teachings of the Evangelical Church. So it's no wonder that when you talk to someone about Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, or Limited Atonement they are offended and respond with something like "What! You're saying God doesn't choose me, because I choose him first? I could never serve a God like that!" I remeber the pastor of my old church would say when he gave his alter calls. "Jesus stands at the door of your heart, knocking waiting for you to let him in. He is a perfect gentlemen in that he will not force himself in.".


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## ReformedWretch (Feb 19, 2005)

> "Jesus stands at the door of your heart, knocking waiting for you to let him in. He is a perfect gentlemen in that he will not force himself in."



I've heard that before!


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## Barnpreacher (Feb 19, 2005)

What's amazing to think about is what was being preached during the 17th, 18th, and early 19th century? It was mainly the doctrines of grace, right? And that 17th, 18th and early 19th centuries were the greatest periods of revival that Europe and America has ever seen. There was an open door that no man could shut. Now you have mostly anti-DoG being preached in pulpits everywhere and we find ourselves in a Laodicean, lukewarm age. Coincidence? I don't think so.


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## tdowns (Feb 19, 2005)

*Keep praying Adam.*

Adam, I feel your pain. My personality tends to fire-up with guys like that, and I become the converted drunk often. Over the years I've tried to find that balance between being firm and strong and bold in the faith, and patient, prayerfull and trusting when it comes to evangelism or teaching the many who are confused in the church today. Sometimes prayer is the ticket.

Also, anybody else notice that many who are against the DoGs and differing views on eschetology rarely will do their research? As I learned about reformed theology, and started studying the differences between what is being taught and what the bible teaches, (I'm still learning) I had many discusions with "Evangelical America" in regards to God's Sov. Election, End times, Molinism, Open Theism; everytime, if they had some material to defend their position, if I hadn't read it, I'd at least browse it, sometimes read it, really search for truth, and of course I usually found that their views came up lacking. But as I searched and read, the people who had a problem with Reformed theology, etc, didn't even come to this site to browse, or read an article I sent them from Matt, etc. 
I believe the bible says somewhere,.... that men are willfully ignorant.

TD


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## ReformedWretch (Feb 19, 2005)

> anybody else notice that many who are against the DoGs and differing views on eschetology rarely will do their research?



*ABSOLUTELY*

Many I encounter don't want to even discuss theology let alone consider other opinions as possibly valid.

It's scary.


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## lwadkins (Feb 19, 2005)

How many times do you hear it said that Doctrine divides?
So what would be the point in studying doctrine if you beleived that?


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## lwadkins (Feb 19, 2005)

After all the Holy Spirit will give me the truth, I can feel it, so I dont really need all that intellectual gobbelty gook.


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## ReformedWretch (Feb 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by lwadkins_
> After all the Holy Spirit will give me the truth, I can feel it, so I dont really need all that intellectual gobbelty gook.



Sad but true.


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## tdowns (Feb 19, 2005)

*Willfully Ignorant.*

Where does the bible state that men are "willfully ignorant"? Anybody know?

TD


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## Average Joey (Feb 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Barnpreacher_
> What's amazing to think about is what was being preached during the 17th, 18th, and early 19th century? It was mainly the doctrines of grace, right? And that 17th, 18th and early 19th centuries were the greatest periods of revival that Europe and America has ever seen. There was an open door that no man could shut. Now you have mostly anti-DoG being preached in pulpits everywhere and we find ourselves in a Laodicean, lukewarm age. Coincidence? I don't think so.



AMEN!I have also thought of this many times.I stated in the Dispensational thread about Dispie being the downfall of Christian nation.I think I change my mind after reading this.


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## turmeric (Feb 19, 2005)

Romans 1 comes quickly to mind.


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## Average Joey (Feb 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by tdowns007_
> Where does the bible state that men are "willfully ignorant"? Anybody know?
> 
> TD




2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:


2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,


2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.


2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:


2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:


2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.


2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


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## tdowns (Feb 19, 2005)

*Thanks Joe*

Love it!!!


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## doonziticus (Mar 21, 2005)

I'm in the same place with some of my Arminian friends right now. They are so offended by the Doctrines of Grace that they find it prudent to attack me, saying things like, "Because you believe this, you are putting yourself above the authority of God." All this is just because they can't stand the idea that a free will choice is not the beginning of the salvation process.


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## The Lamb (Mar 21, 2005)

> All this is just because they can't stand the idea that a free will choice is not the beginning of the salvation process.




Tell them also it is not a middle or ending choice either. This is the hammer of grace.


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## Gregor (Mar 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by doonziticus_
> They are so offended by the Doctrines of Grace that they find it prudent to attack me, saying things like, "Because you believe this, you are putting yourself above the authority of God."



Aren't they putting themselves above God saying salvation depends on man's choice rather than God's? Isn't God sovereign over everything? Doe she not have the right to choose who he saves?


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## BlackCalvinist (Mar 24, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Average Joey_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Barnpreacher_
> ...



So what happened to all the reformed churches during this time ? did they simply run into their little christian huddle-groups and say 'well, we've got our doctrine right' and stop making an effort to change the culture ?

I hear so much more talking about folks 'converting' non-Calvinists into Calvinists rather than folks putting the emphasis on 'converting' non-Christians into Christians..... 

Think about it for a second.

And don't forget what one very wise Webmaster has said on this site:


> This is a good point to remember. I find Dispensationalism an unbiblical system, but many, many Dispensationalists are very dear to me. And we as the Reformed must acknowledge that it is mostly through the efforts of solid bible-reading and believing Dispensationalists that the battle for inerrancy was carried on. Our Dispensationalist brothers were in the vanguard of the ranks.



Would you talk about your brother in a negative fashion to his face ?


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