# The Pope is Dead...



## kevin.carroll (Apr 1, 2005)

Or soon will be...I was just curious what everyone thought. Do you think there are genuine believers within the RCC? Saved in SPITE of the teachings of the church?


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## BobVigneault (Apr 1, 2005)

I for one believe there are true believers in our apostate mother church. God keeps a remnant everywere.


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## heartoflesh (Apr 1, 2005)

Here I thought this was an April Fools prank.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 1, 2005)

I will shed no tears for the death of Antichrist, but yes, I do believe that there are some in the RCC who are saved despite the teachings of the church.


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## kevin.carroll (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by joshua_
> Ditto To Bob.



Yes, that's my thought too. It's shocking, though, how offended some Presbyterians (!) can get at the observation that the RCC is apostate. I have a few like that here.


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## kevin.carroll (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> I will shed no tears for the death of Antichrist, but yes, I do believe that there are some in the RCC who are saved despite the teachings of the church.



I've often wondered if the identification of the Pope with anti-Christ was the result of good exegesis or of 16th century Reformed polemics.

But, like you, I won't be shedding any tears.


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## Ken S. (Apr 1, 2005)

I also believe in the claims that Pope IS the Anti-Christ.

So many things can happen in the next new Pope's work. A religiouse UN seems getting closer and closer. Scared!

VirginiaHuguenot , there are much to learn from you. Nice to meet you here.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Ken S._
> I also believe in the claims that Pope IS the Anti-Christ.
> 
> So many things can happen in the next new Pope's work. A religiouse UN seems getting closer and closer. Scared!
> ...



Very nice to meet you too, sir! 

Yes, I wonder about the next Pope too and what that will mean for the world. 

Praise God that he is Lord over all things and will destroy Antichrist with the brightness of his coming.


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## doulosChristou (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> 
> I've often wondered if the identification of the Pope with anti-Christ was the result of good exegesis or of 16th century Reformed polemics.



Good exegesis. Turretin's exegesis here is particularly precise. However, the identification of the Pope with anti-Christ predates the 16th Century (the Albigenses, Cathars, Waldenses, Arnoldists, Henricians, Patarene, Dante Alghieri, John Wycliff, John Huss, Savonarola), was affirmed in the 16th century to be sure (Luther, Melancthon, Zwingli, Calvin, Beza, Bucer, Knox, Ferrar, Hooper, Latimer, Ridley, Cranmer, Ussher, Firth, Barnes, Philpot, Becon, Turner, Cartwright, Barrow, Jewel, Coverdale, Lord Cobham, Hooker, Ainsworth, Dent, Foxe, Fulke, Bradford, Bullinger, Rogers, Hutchinson, Whitgift, Drake), and continued (& continues) to be affirmed by many godly exegetes long after the 16th century (KJV translators, WCF authors, 1689 LBCF authors, Matthew Henry, John Owen, John Bunyan, Thomas Manton, Thomas Brooks, Augustus Toplady, Richard Sibbs, Thomas Goodwin, William Perkins, Jeremiah Burroughs, Isaac Newton, Jonathan Edwards, Robert Candlish, J.A. Wylie, John Gill, George Whitefield, John Wesley, Charles Spurgeon, Hudson Taylor, J. C. Ryle, Martyn Lloyd-Jones, Ian Paisley, Richard Bennett).


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## The Lamb (Apr 1, 2005)

Does equating the pope with the antichrist address the office or the person or both? 

This would correlate with the great apostacy Paul warned about. Which only took about 1 century after the death of Christ.


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## tdowns (Apr 1, 2005)

*Pope*

I was thinking about this as I prayed for the man last night, I prayed God's grace save even him, could not he see his rightousness as filthy rags in his last days???

TD


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## kevin.carroll (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by doulosChristou_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> ...



That's a lot of names and an impressive list to be sure...but what evidence is cited? I'm not trying to be argumentive. I'm still in the process of recallibrating my eschatology!


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## The Lamb (Apr 1, 2005)

The Pope is not the only Antichrist As John tells us (I Jn. 2:18) there are always many antichrists. The cults and their founders and leaders, many leaders of the charismatic movement, the liberals, and all who deny the truth, are to one degree or another representatives of Antichrist. They show themselves to be "against Christ" when they contradict the doctrines of the Trinity, of the deity of Christ, of blood atonement, and when they claim for themselves power and position in the church that belongs only to Christ. 

We must not, then, be so taken up with the idea that the Pope is Antichrist that we do not notice the evil work and influence of all these other antichrists, who do the same things and have the same destructive influence in the church. Rev. Ronald Hanko


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## The Lamb (Apr 1, 2005)

What definition of Anti Christ are we using here? What sayest the scriptures in regards to what an antichrist exactly is?


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## doulosChristou (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> That's a lot of names and an impressive list to be sure...but what evidence is cited? I'm not trying to be argumentive. I'm still in the process of recallibrating my eschatology!



Yes, it's an impressive enough a list that the doctrine must not be dismissed out of hand without devoting ourselves to as much study of it as these men. I suggest beginning with "Whether It Can Be Proven the Pope of Rome Is the Antichrist" from Francis Turretin's _7th Disputation on the Antichrist_. Be a good Berean and test his exegesis from Scripture. As far as I know, Turretin has never been answered. It is the best work on the subject that I have read. Secondarily, you should also read J. A. Wylie's excellent _The Papacy is the Antichrist_. For a couple modern treatments online, you can read Bennett and Paisley here:

http://www.bereanbeacon.org/articles/antichrist_unveiled.htm

http://www.ianpaisley.org/antichrist.asp


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## BobVigneault (Apr 1, 2005)

And now he's alive again, OH NO! He's Nicholas Carpathia!!!!!!!


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## tcalbrecht (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by maxdetail_
> And now he's alive again, OH NO! He's Nicholas Carpathia!!!!!!!



Didn't the pope get raptured in one of the _Left Behind_ books?


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## Richard King (Apr 1, 2005)

I fond it frustrating this morning to hear the TODAY show report that ...'CHRISTIANS everywhere are anxiously awaiting news regarding the Pope's health.' Is it possible they don't know he doesn't represent (ALL) Christians?


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## BobVigneault (Apr 1, 2005)

Well, technically Richard, does the pope represent ANY Christians at all?


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## Arch2k (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> I will shed no tears for the death of Antichrist, but yes, I do believe that there are some in the RCC who are saved despite the teachings of the church.





I honestly don't know if there are any Martin Luthers around today (believers in the RCC). They would have to be very uncomfortable "worshipping" in a place like that! It's possible, but definately not the norm In my humble opinion.


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## Ken S. (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by doulosChristou_
> 
> Good exegesis. Turretin's exegesis here is particularly precise. However, the identification of the Pope with anti-Christ predates the 16th Century (the Albigenses, Cathars, Waldenses, Arnoldists, Henricians, Patarene, Dante Alghieri, John Wycliff, John Huss, Savonarola), was affirmed in the 16th century to be sure (Luther, Melancthon, Zwingli, Calvin, Beza, Bucer, Knox, Ferrar, Hooper, Latimer, Ridley, Cranmer, Ussher, Firth, Barnes, Philpot, Becon, Turner, Cartwright, Barrow, Jewel, Coverdale, Lord Cobham, Hooker, Ainsworth, Dent, Foxe, Fulke, Bradford, Bullinger, Rogers, Hutchinson, Whitgift, Drake), and continued (& continues) to be affirmed by many godly exegetes long after the 16th century (KJV translators, WCF authors, 1689 LBCF authors, Matthew Henry, John Owen, John Bunyan, Thomas Manton, Thomas Brooks, Augustus Toplady, Richard Sibbs, Thomas Goodwin, William Perkins, Jeremiah Burroughs, Isaac Newton, Jonathan Edwards, Robert Candlish, J.A. Wylie, John Gill, George Whitefield, John Wesley, Charles Spurgeon, Hudson Taylor, J. C. Ryle, Martyn Lloyd-Jones, Ian Paisley, Richard Bennett).



That's definitely the exact references I've been looking for for months! Thank you very very much doulosChristou!

My VERY first time to identify all old age leaders who declared that the Pope(s) is the Anti-Christ. I could tell you that these refereces will only appear in the fundamentalistic churches in Hong Kong. Only the fundamentals, or the "fundies" as the liberals usually label, still think Catholicism is a heresy. More and more evangelical churches are either accepting the Catholic church, even cooperating with them, or being more and more theologically friendly to Catholicism. There are still a number of evangelical churches know that Catholicism got many problems, but not many. There are absolutely very very few evangelical churches in Hong Kong know of those old age leaders and their declarations. The identification of the Pope with Anti-Christ is basically viewed as a BIG JOKE in most Hong Kong churches. 

Brothers in the west, please pray for Hong Kong churches.

Hey VirginiaHuguenot, don't sir me, coz I'm just a kid, much younger than you. I guess you are nearly 40, correct?


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## BobVigneault (Apr 1, 2005)

Three clerics were asked the following question:

When you are in your casket, and friends and family and are mourning over you, what would you most like to hear them say?

Episcopal Priest: "I would like to hear them say that I was a wonderful husband, a fine spiritual leader, and a great family man."

Catholic Priest: "I would like to hear them say that I was an excellent teacher and a servant of God who made a huge difference in peoples' lives."

Rabbi: "I would like to hear them say, 'Look, he's moving.'"


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## blhowes (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by maxdetail_
> Rabbi: "I would like to hear them say, 'Look, he's moving.'"



Good one!


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## The Lamb (Apr 1, 2005)

Did everyone miss my question? 

What definition of Anti Christ are we using here? What sayest the scriptures in regards to what an antichrist exactly is?


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## RamistThomist (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Ken S._
> I also believe in the claims that Pope IS the Anti-Christ.
> 
> So many things can happen in the next new Pope's work. A religiouse UN seems getting closer and closer. Scared!



I just thought of something I had never realized before. Let us assume that the Pope will try to establish a religious UN. People--mainly hyper-Dispensationalists--often harp on this saying, "One world bank, one world government, one world army, one world religion." Of course, the reference they have in mind is some form of the Tower of Babel. however, they draw precisely the opposite conclusion from what the text says. They think that a singular, antichristiian movement will arise that most Christians will be helpless to stop. However, God made it clear that he will destroy/frustrate any attempt like this. Just some thoughts...


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Ken S._
> Hey VirginiaHuguenot, don't sir me, coz I'm just a kid, much younger than you. I guess you are nearly 40, correct?



 Sorry, I didn't realize you were a young un'! I'm starting to feel old here...

Thank you for the encouragement to pray for our brethren in Hong Kong. Will do!


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> Did everyone miss my question?
> 
> What definition of Anti Christ are we using here? What sayest the scriptures in regards to what an antichrist exactly is?



2 Thess. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The Pope claims to be Head of the Church, and assumes for himself divine attributes. He sits in the house of God (which he has turned into Babylon) but exalts himself against God. Antichrist is not merely an unbeliever who does these things. He is the leader of apostate Christianity. And here I speak not just of one man but of the office of the Papacy. For generations and centuries the Head of Rome has claimed all authority over matters spiritual and temporal on earth and as the Westminster Confession says, he is that man of sin, that man of perdition, spoken of in the Scriptures.

There are other Scriptural passages that speak of Antichrist. Some of them are addressed here:

Ian Paisley defines AntiChrist


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 1, 2005)

For those who may be interested in how the next Pope will be chosen the process is outlined here.


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## The Lamb (Apr 1, 2005)

Thank you Andrew:

I have read Ian and Chick before. 

I am just wondering if there is one antichrist, or many as John exclaims.

The Church has been apostate forever.

It did not take long at all

[Edited on 4-1-2005 by The Lamb]


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## weinhold (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> I will shed no tears for the death of Antichrist, but yes, I do believe that there are some in the RCC who are saved despite the teachings of the church.



Wow.


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## Bladestunner316 (Apr 1, 2005)

I hope his funderal dont last forever like Reagens swear I never thought they would burry the man.

blade


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## RamistThomist (Apr 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Bladestunner316_
> I hope his funderal dont last forever like Reagens swear I never thought they would burry the man.
> 
> blade



It is odd that you mention that. I remember what I was doing that day. I finished Luther's Bondage of the Will. Hmmmmm?


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## Reformingstudent (Apr 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> I will shed no tears for the death of Antichrist, but yes, I do believe that there are some in the RCC who are saved despite the teachings of the church.




Curious to know if those who hold the office or title of the Pope feel more of God's devine wrath in hell when they die more than others do. Funny how so many "Christians" like Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, Jack Van Impe and a bunch of others praise this man of sin as if he truly was Christ Himself.
Luk 6:26 Woe to you when all men shall speak well of you! For so their fathers did to the false prophets. 
Luk 16:15b For that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. 
Let the the world run after it's idols and false god's, we who have been Redeemed and know the truth can rejoice in the knowledge that our God reins.
Psa 2:6 Yea, I have set My king on My holy hill, on Zion. 
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree of Jehovah. He has said to Me, You are My Son; today I have begotten You. 
Psa 2:8 Ask of Me, and I shall give the nations for Your inheritance; and the uttermost parts of the earth for Your possession. 
Psa 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. 
Psa 2:10 And now be wise, O kings; be instructed, O judges of the earth. 
Psa 2:11 Serve Jehovah with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 
Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and you perish from the way, when His wrath is kindled in but a little time. Blessed are all who put their trust in Him.


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## Reformingstudent (Apr 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Bladestunner316_
> I hope his funderal dont last forever like Reagens swear I never thought they would burry the man.
> 
> blade



Big Amen to that.
I'm already tired of seeing on the news how 'Great" a man JPll is/was and how he ended comunisim in eastern europe. Of course Ronald Reagan and Margret Thatcher had little to do with that. Turn on the TV and on almost every news show there's a priest giving his view of how wonderful holy fadder is.


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## Bladestunner316 (Apr 2, 2005)

bleh...............


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## Shane (Apr 2, 2005)

blade [/quote]

I'm already tired of seeing on the news how 'Great" a man JPll is/was and how he ended comunisim in eastern europe. Of course Ronald Reagan and Margret Thatcher had little to do with that. Turn on the TV and on almost every news show there's a priest giving his view of how wonderful holy fadder is.  [/quote]

I cant help wonder how much better of they would be if the just put Christ on the pedestal instead of the Pope, mary, Saints etc.


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## lwadkins (Apr 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Keylife_fan_
> 
> I'm already tired of seeing on the news how 'Great" a man JPll is/was and how he ended comunisim in eastern europe. Of course Ronald Reagan and Margret Thatcher had little to do with that. Turn on the TV and on almost every news show there's a priest giving his view of how wonderful holy fadder is.



Yes and this is the same media who couldn't wait to jump on the Pope and the Catholic church at every opportunity...


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by lwadkins_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Keylife_fan_
> ...



The media are always _pontificating_, but nowawdays it has extra meaning.


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## kevin.carroll (Apr 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> ...



I did not realize this was the Reformed position. I looked up the passage you cited in the WCF. While I do not think the proof texts they chose are compelling, Shaw's exposition on the Standards was very enlightening.

:::sigh::: I envy all of you who were raised Reformed. I feel like every time I have a handle on things I run into another area I have not thought about. I must admit, I wear the moniker "Reformed" *VERY* humbly.


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## kevin.carroll (Apr 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Keylife_fan_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Bladestunner316_
> ...



Well at least it is giving us relief from 24/7 Terry Schiavo and/or Michael Jackson coverage.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> ...



Kevin, I wasn't raised Reformed, I was raised Roman Catholic. But perhaps in God's gracious providence, that opened my eyes to the nature of the Papacy upon my conversion. 

The universal testimony of the Reformers, pre-Reformers, Puritans and many others have always been that the Pope is Antichrist. It's not that he is a convenient scapegoat, or that he is only one who persecuted Protestants, it is that he sits in the temple of God and exalts himself against God taking attributes and titles that belong only to the Lord. 

As has been mentioned, Wylie's and Turretin's treatises on the Papal Antichrist are both excellent sources for futher study. I would also add F.N. Lee's _Antichrist in Scripture_, John Bunyan's _Of Antichrist_, and some of other men cited previously. 

Also, here is a list of historic Reformed Creeds/Confessions that identify the Pope as Antichrist: 

Ian Paisley's List of Reformed Creeds Which Identify the Pope as Antichrist


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## Ken S. (Apr 2, 2005)

Have read all of you's conversations. The references mentioned and scriptural texts quoted for defining anti-Christ are all execellent and so impressive and inspiring. It's only my second time to hear that the identification of the Pope with Anti-Christ is in those historical confessions. I wonder how the liberals and the Reformed in World Council of Churches will react if they see the testimonies made by the confessions !!!! (sometimes I really think those Reformed are crazy). There are much to learn from what you guys have said. Really worth a reading. I wish so much that more Hong Kong protestants or even Catholics will come join this board. Protestants holding views like yours are few in Hong Kong. I just got an idea, why don't you guys go to the Hong Kong network and try to educate them about the true face of the pope? Protestants like me here sometimes get tired to death! People will think you're crazy claiming that the Pope is the Anti-Christ.

Hey VirginiaHuguenot, a bit unbelievable to hear you said you're raised Catholicism. How wonderful it is you've got your eyes opened! You will definitely be a very effective example of flesh to convert the Catholics, like Richard Bennett.

My English still got really much to be improved, hope you all understand what I write.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 2, 2005)

Well, apparently, the Vatican has confirmed the death of Pope John Paul II. 

Here is some guidance from Fisher's Catechism, Q. 98 (35) on how to pray concerning the Roman Antichrist:



> Q. 35. If we are to pray for all sorts of men living, how may we pray about the Roman Antichrist?
> 
> A. Out of the love we should bear to our fellow-creatures, who are under the yoke and dominion of the Roman Antichrist, we ought to pray no otherwise about him, than that the Lord would soon "consume him with the Spirit of his mouth, and destroy him with the brightness of his coming," 2 Thess. 2:8.


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## Authorised (Apr 2, 2005)

The Pope died a few minutes ago.

So now this thread dies too...

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050402/ap_on_re_eu/pope

[Edited on 4-2-2005 by Authorised]


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## Bladestunner316 (Apr 2, 2005)

Yeah but this aint going to die for like another month


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Apr 3, 2005)

I've been called mean and hateful and offensive for saying anything but "poor pope i love him so much" around others. What is our response, biblically speaking, to people who find anti-papist remarks to be "mean" and "unchristian"?


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## pastorway (Apr 3, 2005)

sometimes the truth hurts!

They can read what John Bunyan had to say about the Pope here: Anti-Christ and His Ruin

Talk about mean!!!

Phillip


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## kevin.carroll (Apr 3, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> I've been called mean and hateful and offensive for saying anything but "poor pope i love him so much" around others. What is our response, biblically speaking, to people who find anti-papist remarks to be "mean" and "unchristian"?



That does raise another point, though, and that is how do pastors deal with this issue? I put it this way because pastoral leadership must, biblically, be gentle. We speak the truth in love, not use it as a cudgel to bludgeon our hearers.

I'm up early (OK...it FEELS early) thinking and praying about this. Do I ignore the event? Do I use it as a teaching opportunity?

I'm of in a quandry. Partly, too, the issue here is political. We have a number of converted catholics in our congregation. Unfortunately, this little church has been without a pastor for YEARS. The church has suffered. There has been no teaching, no catechizing...most of the elders have, I suspect, never even read the Confessions! Or if they have, it was when they were kids. I'm working hard...but I almost feel as if this is a missionary plant. We are re-forming a Reformed church!

Ironically, the last pastor got canned over this very issue...of being ant-catholic. He was viewed as mean-spirited. I know this man and the accusations were not without warrant. Nevertheless, the truth must be proclaimed and yet Paul's admonition that the Lord's servant must not be harsh, but a patient teacher rings in my ears...So I'm back to square one. What to do...what to say?


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## SolaScriptura (Apr 3, 2005)

First, I think it displays a ridiculously low amount of common sense and propriety to make comments such as "œthe pope is the anti-Christ!" to RCs who are in the midst of their grief. If you have ever grieved then you know that when you´re in that process "“ especially during the initial stages "“ you are just not in the emotional state to tolerate things that you could (or would) normally handle.

Second, I think it is safe, legitimate, and good to acknowledge his death from the pulpit. He was, after all, a very significant person in our world. (Claiming the allegiance of a full 50% of the people who call themselves Christian!) Surely there are those in the congregation who themselves are wondering how they should respond, or what they should say to their RC coworkers, family and/or friends. This is a great opportunity to equip them to lovingly engage those people.

Third, I believe that it is just basic human decency to offer our genuine sympathy and condolences to others who have suffered a real loss and who are really grieving. It is the same sympathy and respect you would want. To be honest, I just don´t comprehend how a person could have that deep a sense of loss over a person whom they never met, but in the final analysis, my lack of comprehension doesn´t matter: they are grieving, and I should be sympathetic to them.

Finally, none of what I have written above implies or necessitates that we eulogize the pope or the Roman Church! I'd just say that _NOW_ isn't the prudent time to point out the errors of Roman Catholicism...


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## tfelice (Apr 3, 2005)

> _Originally posted by SolaScriptura_
> I'd just say that _NOW_ isn't the prudent time to point out the errors of Roman Catholicism...



You made some good points in your post, however I would have to disagree with this last statement. The papacy is the enemy of the church, in fact its greatest earthly enemy. I do not think that there is ever a time when we should speak softly against Rome. 

This week has been a media windfall for Rome. First the Terri Schiavo situation put many Romanist priests on TV as well as other Roman apologists. Then we went right into the death of the Pope coverage.

Has the Protestant position been heard? NO! Why should we sit back quietly as our mortal enemy is lauded with praise and adulation. This is a golden opportunity for us to speak out.

I am formerly a Roman Catholic and nothing sickens me more today then to see the Church of Rome exalted in this manner. Especially, when you see so called "evangelicals" speak on how wonderful this last Pope was for the world.

[Edited on 4-3-2005 by tfelice]


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 3, 2005)

We are called to pray for the destruction of Antichrist (ie., the Papacy). We are also called to speak the truth in love. There is no conflict between these commands. We must all exercise prudence and good judgment with whom we are speaking. This thread is a conversation between members of the Puritan Board on the occasion of the Pope's death and how we are to understand it. It is not directed towards Catholics although many former Catholics such as myself have opinions to express. As has been pointed out, the Roman Catholic Church has received an enormous amount of publicity in the past few weeks. This thread serves as a very tiny counter point to that message. It is a message of truth. There may be believers in the RCC, but they are there despite the church's teaching, not because of it. We must pray for the deliverance of the world from the errors of Popery. This event in history highlights the need and the spiritual darkness that exists. It is precisely when the Papacy hopes to capitalize upon the mourning of the world for the death of Antichrist that the truth should be voiced by believers. 

"If I profess with the loudest voice and clearest exposition every portion of the truth of God except precisely that little point which the world and the devil are at that moment attacking, I am not confessing Christ, however boldly I may be professing Christ.

"Wherever the battle rages, there the loyalty of the soldier is proved and to be steady on all the battlefield besides is mere flight and disgrace if he flinches at that one point."

- Martin Luther

[Edited on 4-3-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]


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## blhowes (Apr 3, 2005)

Have they said when they're going to bury the pope? 

I understand that the pope's death is a big news event for a large sector of the population, but I'm looking forward to not seeing and hearing about it/him every time I turn on the TV or log onto the internet.


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## BobVigneault (Apr 3, 2005)

JP 2 did play a significant role in world politics and should be remembered for that but his death has turned into one long commercial for an apostate church and a deeper burying of the gospel.

I am angry and jealous for how this will continue to blur the truth of justification by faith. Rembering the person is one thing but this is turning into pope worship and idolatry and the promotion of anti-christian dogma. 

I like this quote from Reymond's Systematic:
"Rome's exegesis of Matthew 16 and its historically developed dogmatic claim to authoritative primacy in the Christian world simply cannot be demonstrated and sustained from Scripture itself. This claim is surely one of the great hoaxes foisted upon professing Christendom, upon which false base rests the whole papal sacerdotal system."


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## Ken S. (Apr 3, 2005)

> _Originally posted by SolaScriptura_
> First, I think it displays a ridiculously low amount of common sense and propriety to make comments such as "œthe pope is the anti-Christ!" to RCs who are in the midst of their grief. If you have ever grieved then you know that when you´re in that process "“ especially during the initial stages "“ you are just not in the emotional state to tolerate things that you could (or would) normally handle.
> 
> Second, I think it is safe, legitimate, and good to acknowledge his death from the pulpit. He was, after all, a very significant person in our world. (Claiming the allegiance of a full 50% of the people who call themselves Christian!) Surely there are those in the congregation who themselves are wondering how they should respond, or what they should say to their RC coworkers, family and/or friends. This is a great opportunity to equip them to lovingly engage those people.
> ...




Good point though. But I would even more appreciate those pastors who dare to announce that the Pope is Anti-Christ and thus offends the millions of Catholics and, undoubtfully, a number of protestants during this sensitive moment. The fact is, there are hardly any pastors who got the ball to announce so even in their own protestant churh. I have just made the annoucement on my fellowship's message board right this evening and I'm sure I'll be disliked even more by my fellow so called "brothers and sisters". 

I think the problem now isen't that the Pope is being hated or criticized to much but praised and loved to much by even the protestants. Before his death, there had been a pastor here in Hong Kong who kept writing booklets and books reminding protestants that RCC is heresy while at the same time the liberals labeled him the "fundies"(fundamentalist) and the evangelicals said he's a very subjective Christian writor. I wonder if it's humane and just that this pastor has received no sympathy from his OWN brothers. I myself have seen just too many unjust things happening all around the world. I will not shed even one drop of tear for neither the pope nor the Catholics who have just lost their pope, because I've alreayd shed too much tears for such pastors as that "fundy".


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## pastorway (Apr 3, 2005)

To mark the day the Pope died my wife nad I rented and watched for the first time the movie _Luther_.


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## kevin.carroll (Apr 3, 2005)

> _Originally posted by SolaScriptura_
> First, I think it displays a ridiculously low amount of common sense and propriety to make comments such as "œthe pope is the anti-Christ!" to RCs who are in the midst of their grief. If you have ever grieved then you know that when you´re in that process "“ especially during the initial stages "“ you are just not in the emotional state to tolerate things that you could (or would) normally handle.
> 
> Second, I think it is safe, legitimate, and good to acknowledge his death from the pulpit. He was, after all, a very significant person in our world. (Claiming the allegiance of a full 50% of the people who call themselves Christian!) Surely there are those in the congregation who themselves are wondering how they should respond, or what they should say to their RC coworkers, family and/or friends. This is a great opportunity to equip them to lovingly engage those people.
> ...



Thanks, Ben. I appreciate your remarks and your personal concern. In the end I chose to just pull a few aside and talk to them privately. It was received pretty well.


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## kevin.carroll (Apr 3, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> We are called to pray for the destruction of Antichrist (ie., the Papacy). We are also called to speak the truth in love. There is no conflict between these commands. We must all exercise prudence and good judgment with whom we are speaking. This thread is a conversation between members of the Puritan Board on the occasion of the Pope's death and how we are to understand it. It is not directed towards Catholics although many former Catholics such as myself have opinions to express. As has been pointed out, the Roman Catholic Church has received an enormous amount of publicity in the past few weeks. This thread serves as a very tiny counter point to that message. It is a message of truth. There may be believers in the RCC, but they are there despite the church's teaching, not because of it. We must pray for the deliverance of the world from the errors of Popery. This event in history highlights the need and the spiritual darkness that exists. It is precisely when the Papacy hopes to capitalize upon the mourning of the world for the death of Antichrist that the truth should be voiced by believers.
> 
> "If I profess with the loudest voice and clearest exposition every portion of the truth of God except precisely that little point which the world and the devil are at that moment attacking, I am not confessing Christ, however boldly I may be professing Christ.
> ...



Thanks, too, Andrew. "Know your audience" is a good axiom!


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## kevin.carroll (Apr 3, 2005)

> _Originally posted by pastorway_
> To mark the day the Pope died my wife nad I rented and watched for the first time the movie _Luther_.



It's in our Netflix queue!


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 3, 2005)

Here is an insightful (but favorable) bio on the Pope which notes his extreme devotion to Mary. This Pope has elevated Mariolatry to a remarkable degree, especially since the attempted assassination in 1981. He attributes his survival specifically to Mary. Even prior to that event, his motto, according to the article was "Totus tuus (Latin for "All yours," meaning Mary)." Incidentally, the recently uncovered Stasi (East German secret police) files have implicated the KGB and Bulgarian secret police in that assassination attempt, something that has long been suspected and was illustrated in Tom Clancy's novel _Red Rabbit_.

Bob, I think they are still working out the details of the funeral. There has been some speculation that he might be buried in Poland, but I suspect it will be at the Vatican. President Bush has said he will attend. This article has more on the tradition and church law that bears on the funeral of a Pope.


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## doulosChristou (Apr 3, 2005)

> _Originally posted by pastorway_
> To mark the day the Pope died my wife nad I rented and watched for the first time the movie _Luther_.



That's exactly what my wife and I did too!



Despite some regretful ommisions, it was a very fine movie. It presented the gospel.


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## doulosChristou (Apr 3, 2005)

I saw on the news that the Pope will be extravagantly burried inside three coffins. I was wondering if anyone knew the significance of this? I know that the triple-crown worn by the Pope symbolizes his claim of being the sovereign of heaven, earth, and the underworld. I was curious if the triple coffin was similar.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 3, 2005)

> _Originally posted by doulosChristou_
> I saw on the news that the Pope will be extravagantly burried inside three coffins. I was wondering if anyone knew the significance of this? I know that the triple-crown worn by the Pope symbolizes his claim of being the sovereign of heaven, earth, and the underworld. I was curious if the triple coffin was similar.



There is some symbolic significance, according to this article:



> Even to this day, three coffins are used. The first, made of cypress, like Paul VI's, is to signify that even the popes are human and are buried like common men. The second, of lead, bears the name of the pontiff, the dates of his pontificate, and copies of the documents of profound importance issued under his seal. The broken seal of office is placed within the lead coffin by the Camerlengo prior to final closure. Finally, the third coffin, made of elm, the most precious of local woods available in Rome, is used to signify the great dignity of the man being laid to his rest. Thanks to this ancient custom, many early documents of the Church have been conserved.
> 
> Source: http://www.catholic-pages.com/pope/papal-funeral.asp



When Pope John XXIII was exhumed after 37 years, his triple coffin was a major factor in his 'remarkable' preservation. See this article for further details.


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## lwadkins (Apr 3, 2005)

Wow the intricacy of all this ritual and ceremony. If only they were so precise in their theology!


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## turmeric (Apr 3, 2005)

They are-that's the problem!


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 3, 2005)

This article is worth reading. It addresses the Pope's phony 1997 'apology' for the Roman Catholic St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre of French Huguenots on August 24, 1572, which killed an estimated 100,000 French Protestants.


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## lwadkins (Apr 3, 2005)

Interesting article Andrew. Notable omission that he (PJP II) didnt mention the role of the Pope in the slaughter.

[Edited on 4-3-2005 by lwadkins]

[Edited on 4-3-2005 by lwadkins]


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## Ken S. (Apr 4, 2005)

it seemed that I was ignored in my last few threads, was it because my English is too bad to understand?


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## Ken S. (Apr 4, 2005)

thanks Andrew, valuable references!


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 4, 2005)

You're welcome, Ken.

More info for those who may be interested:

Among students of Papal history, it is well known that there have been not only Popes, but anti-Popes. The Pope/Anti-Pope controversy, however, is not confined to the Middle Ages. 

It is noteworthy that today there is a Sedevacantist or traditionalist Catholic movement (ie., adheres to pre-Vatican II dogma) called "True Catholic" which claims the "Holy See" was vacant for 40 years before Pope Pius XIII was elected by a conclave on October 24, 1998. In other words, this group or movement did not recognize the authority of any post-Vatican II Roman pontiff (actually starting with the election of Pope John XXIII in 1958, who was not recognized because he was a Freemason). Thus, Pope Pius XIII has been the head of the Catholic Church since 1998, according to his supporters.

Mel Gibson belongs to the traditionalist pre-Vatican II movement but I don't know his thoughts on the Pope/Anti-Pope controversy.

More on the Anti-Popes


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## jfschultz (Apr 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by pastorway_
> To mark the day the Pope died my wife nad I rented and watched for the first time the movie _Luther_.



I took a break from watching it and learned that he had died.

For a bit of perspective, before bashing the RCC without mercy, remember the RCC was faithful for several centuries. The PCUSA was faithful for decades and perhaps even a few decades more than a century. From what Fred and others have posted, the PCA is heading off to left field after only 3 decades!


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## Ken S. (Apr 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by jfschultz_
> 
> I took a break from watching it and learned that he had died.
> 
> For a bit of perspective, before bashing the RCC without mercy, remember the RCC was faithful for several centuries. The PCUSA was faithful for decades and perhaps even a few decades more than a century. From what Fred and others have posted, the PCA is heading off to left field after only 3 decades!





the RCC was faithful for several centuries?
I think you are referring to the church before at least the 10th century, right?


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## The Lamb (Apr 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by jfschultz_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by pastorway_
> ...




John, they have been apostate from their onset. I believe some within the church are not, but the church as a whole has been. It did not take long for this to happen. Read some of ignatious and you shall see. The propagation of the primacy of Peter, and the bishop of rome was a turning away from Christ. Even Augustine held to error as we all do. God has and always will keep a remant according to electing grace. And all the Glory goes to him.


Joseph


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## turmeric (Apr 4, 2005)

> John, they have been *apostate from their onset*... Even Augustine held to error *as we all do*



Huh? :scratchhead:

[Edited on 4-5-2005 by turmeric]


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## Me Died Blue (Apr 5, 2005)

Joseph, up until the Reformation, Rome was _the_ only established church other than the Orthodox churches. So if they were apostate from near the start as you say, even if there were remnants of individuals, then God's covenant community of a collective, external Church as a whole would have ceased to exist from long before the Reformation, none of the Reformers would have been lawfully ordained, and we would cease to have any true churches today. The historic Reformed position, and the one that does not inevitably lead to such a problem, is that Rome officially denied the Gospel and thus became apostate at the Council of Trent.


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## The Lamb (Apr 5, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Me Died Blue_
> Joseph, up until the Reformation, Rome was _the_ only established church other than the Orthodox churches. So if they were apostate from near the start as you say, even if there were remnants of individuals, then God's covenant community of a collective, external Church as a whole would have ceased to exist from long before the Reformation, none of the Reformers would have been lawfully ordained, and we would cease to have any true churches today. The historic Reformed position, and the one that does not inevitably lead to such a problem, is that Rome officially denied the Gospel and thus became apostate at the Council of Trent.




Chris: This really does not equate them being Apostolic in doctrine. Just as Israel is not all of Israel, The RCC remained until God saw fit and was pleased to raise up men to reform it. Perhaps you weight the "Lawful ordination" of ministers as more important than I. God will preserve His own in Christ you know that. TO say we are dependant upon Rome to have a "True Church" based soley on "lawful ordinations" is not entirely correct either. We do not need trent to determine when Rome denied the Gospel. I believe they are part of the apostacy Paul spoke about.

Article 29 sums it up for me in the BC:

The true church can be recognized if it has the following marks: The church engages in the pure preaching of the gospel; it makes use of the pure administration of the sacraments as Christ instituted them; it practices church discipline for correcting faults. In short, it governs itself according to the pure Word of God, rejecting all things contrary to it and holding Jesus Christ as the only Head. By these marks one can be assured of recognizing the true church-- and no one ought to be separated from it.

As for the false church, it assigns more authority to itself and its ordinances than to the Word of God; it does not want to subject itself to the yoke of Christ; it does not administer the sacraments as Christ commanded in his Word; it rather adds to them or subtracts from them as it pleases; it bases itself on men, more than on Jesus Christ; it persecutes those who live holy lives according to the Word of God and who rebuke it for its faults, greed, and idolatry.


In His Grace


Joseph

[Edited on 4-5-2005 by The Lamb]


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## The Lamb (Apr 5, 2005)

> _Originally posted by turmeric_
> 
> 
> > John, they have been *apostate from their onset*... Even Augustine held to error *as we all do*
> ...




WHy do you sound confused? 

Augustine with his platonic influence did hold to some error. Why else would he write his recantations?


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## kevin.carroll (Apr 5, 2005)

Hmmm, this may get posted twice. My browser crashed. If so, I apologize. I said:

I've never been militantly anto-Catholic. This is probably due more to my general ignorance of RCC doctrine and my evangelical uprbrining than anything. Let's face it, evangelicals are fairly conciliatory towards Rome.

But what I have seen this week on TV has REVOLTED me. To actually see people bowing down to a corpse! Hello??? First Commandment? Second Commandment??? This isn't even Christian, it is positively pagan.


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## BobVigneault (Apr 5, 2005)

Bowing down to a corpse is just the beginning. You are going to start hearing about miracles all over the world because someone prayed to JP 2 for healing. This is part of his beatification process. It's already happening. I've heard media folks compare him to Jesus. Keep in mind that anti-Christ does not mean against Christ, it means the replacement or representative-instead-of or substitute. 

The Prayer of Jabez showed us how superstitious Christendom is. The Purpose Driven Life demonstrated our shallowness. The death of JP 2 the Great is going to usher in a massive new paradigm for post modern religious fervor. The church will now finish creating God in our image and form a global religion just as JP 2 is being described as 'the global pope'.

I hope I'm wrong.


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## Ken S. (Apr 5, 2005)

> _Originally posted by maxdetail_
> Bowing down to a corpse is just the beginning. You are going to start hearing about miracles all over the world because someone prayed to JP 2 for healing. This is part of his beatification process. It's already happening. I've heard media folks compare him to Jesus. Keep in mind that anti-Christ does not mean against Christ, it means the replacement or representative-instead-of or substitute.
> 
> The Prayer of Jabez showed us how superstitious Christendom is. The Purpose Driven Life demonstrated our shallowness. The death of JP 2 the Great is going to usher in a massive new paradigm for post modern religious fervor. The church will now finish creating God in our image and form a global religion just as JP 2 is being described as 'the global pope'.
> ...




Inspiring indeed!!!!
I would love to hear you elaberate the idea with more words. Let's say, 7oo to 1000 words? Really look forward to reading more of your sharings on the matter


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## Ken S. (Apr 5, 2005)

> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> Hmmm, this may get posted twice. My browser crashed. If so, I apologize. I said:
> 
> I've never been militantly anto-Catholic. This is probably due more to my general ignorance of RCC doctrine and my evangelical uprbrining than anything. Let's face it, evangelicals are fairly conciliatory towards Rome.
> ...




bowing down to a corpse? Is there any links where I can see protestants bowing down to his corpse?


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## kevin.carroll (Apr 5, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Ken S._
> bowing down to a corpse? Is there any links where I can see protestants bowing down to his corpse?



I don't know if Protestants are doing though I find it highly unlikely. Just turn on Fox News. The have been the All Pope All the Time Network since last week.


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## Scott (Apr 5, 2005)

> Chris: This really does not equate them being Apostolic in doctrine. Just as Israel is not all of Israel, The RCC remained until God saw fit and was pleased to raise up men to reform it. Perhaps you weight the "Lawful ordination" of ministers as more important than I. God will preserve His own in Christ you know that. TO say we are dependant upon Rome to have a "True Church" based soley on "lawful ordinations" is not entirely correct either. We do not need trent to determine when Rome denied the Gospel.



I don't think that Chris is saying that having lawfully ordained ministers is a mark of a true church, just a precondition for licit ministerial activity. A church can be a true church and not have lawfully called or ordained ministers. With the exception of extraordinary calls to office, such as those reveived by the apostles directly from Christ Himself, ministers today ordinarily receive lawful calls through the visible established Church in procedures outlined in the Bible. With certain exceptions, a call's lawfulness depends in part on working through the established Church. At the time of the first reformers this was Rome. 

A body can be a true church without having lawfully called ministers (think of a lawful presbyterian church with a vacancy in the pulpit, for example). It is just that they have a vacancy in the minsterial office or the ministers are illicitly installed or ordained (think independency). The issue of whether a body is a true church is related but separate.

The first reformers defended the lawfulness of their calls typically on one of two grounds, (1) prior ordination in Rome or (2) unavoidable emergency. They did not see reordination as required, at least not until Trent. See this defense by the great Francis Turretin for an example:

http://www.apuritansmind.com/FrancisTurretin/francisturretincallingreformers.htm

The webmaster, Matt, is doing his dissertation on this topic and it sounds very promising.

Scott


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## The Lamb (Apr 5, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> 
> 
> > Chris: This really does not equate them being Apostolic in doctrine. Just as Israel is not all of Israel, The RCC remained until God saw fit and was pleased to raise up men to reform it. Perhaps you weight the "Lawful ordination" of ministers as more important than I. God will preserve His own in Christ you know that. TO say we are dependant upon Rome to have a "True Church" based soley on "lawful ordinations" is not entirely correct either. We do not need trent to determine when Rome denied the Gospel.
> ...




Scott: i do not intend to digress this thread. The original comment I made was that Rome was apostate way prior to trent. And this cannot be denied.

Chris denies this because of "lawful ordinations?" Well That is where I beg to differ. This has nothing to do with Romes Apostacy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Licit, illicit, lawful, unlawful, these terms have not a thing to do with Romes false Gospel propagated all the way back.. Tertullian Montanism, Justinian free will, Ignatious and primacy of Peter? 

Rome did not become apostate at trent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why did Luther want to reform? I will never credit the RCC having anything to do with preserving the Gospel of Christ. And "ordination" should NEVER be elevated close to the Sovereign Grace Gospel of truth. Not even close



Joseph


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## BobVigneault (Apr 6, 2005)

"Friday's eclipse will last from a few minutes to over an hour, depending on one's location. In much of the continental United States, people will see what looks like the moon taking a bite out of the sun, with the bite bigger over the South."

So the sky will darken Friday for the pope's funeral. Now that is just TOO weird! Please, Hal Lindsay, help us through this!


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## Arch2k (Apr 6, 2005)

> _Originally posted by maxdetail_
> "Friday's eclipse will last from a few minutes to over an hour, depending on one's location. In much of the continental United States, people will see what looks like the moon taking a bite out of the sun, with the bite bigger over the South."
> 
> So the sky will darken Friday for the pope's funeral. Now that is just TOO weird! Please, Hal Lindsay, help us through this!


Now don't be gettin' all dispensational on us!!


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## Scott (Apr 6, 2005)

"The original comment I made was that Rome was apostate way prior to trent. And this cannot be denied."

The way the Reformers viewed it is that error was endemic but not complete or official. There were good people in the church. Indeed, Luther's own teaching on justification is consistent with some other teachings at his time. With Trent the Roman Church, as a church, officially and formally embraced heretical error. So, Rome was a true Church until Trent. That, at least, is how many reformers saw it.

BTW, if you want to see how far a church can go astray and remain a true church, read through 1 Corthinthians. We see that many had denied the resurrection, a man openly took his father's wife and others praised him for it, etc. Calvin and others used this epistle to show how debased a church could be and still remain a true church.

[Edited on 4-6-2005 by Scott]


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## Ken S. (Apr 6, 2005)

Dr. C. Matthew McMahon, thank you for your brave move in article "The Pope is in Hell", I've just shared it with my other Chinese brothers. With these messages, it helps to prevent the protestants in China's network from being brain washed.


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## Scott (Apr 6, 2005)

Ken: What are Proetstant / Catholic relations like in China?


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## lwadkins (Apr 6, 2005)

Photo of three U.S. presidents with the pope's remains.


http://www.drudgereport.com/


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## turmeric (Apr 6, 2005)

The Catholic Church was not apostate from its beginning as Augustine, Anselm, Bishop Bradwardine & Gottschalk illustrate. If you say they were subject to error as we all are, that sounds a lot less serious than apostate - at least I hope so, since we're all subject to it. The Catholic Church did become apostate early on, I agree. Even in Augustine's time, and earlie, there was much that was unscriptural in its practice & doctrine.


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## The Lamb (Apr 6, 2005)

> _Originally posted by turmeric_
> The Catholic Church was not apostate from its beginning as Augustine, Anselm, Bishop Bradwardine & Gottschalk illustrate. If you say they were subject to error as we all are, that sounds a lot less serious than apostate - at least I hope so, since we're all subject to it. The Catholic Church did become apostate early on, I agree. Even in Augustine's time, and earlie, there was much that was unscriptural in its practice & doctrine.




Meg:

So which is it? Early on or not early on?

Just as Israel forsoke the Lord, so did the Catholic Church. I am not saying truth of any kind was not present, but as a whole, it is apostate from the final revelation given to Paul.

I love ole Auggie. But I have recently been unhappiliy surprised when I see his platonic influence in his writings. 

The phrase "Subject to error" is actually a man made phrase to cover heresey. It is obvious all men are subject to error.


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## The Lamb (Apr 6, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> "The original comment I made was that Rome was apostate way prior to trent. And this cannot be denied."
> 
> The way the Reformers viewed it is that error was endemic but not complete or official. There were good people in the church. Indeed, Luther's own teaching on justification is consistent with some other teachings at his time. With Trent the Roman Church, as a church, officially and formally embraced heretical error. So, Rome was a true Church until Trent. That, at least, is how many reformers saw it.
> ...




Scott. What you are saying is exactly what VAT 1 decalred.

WHen these "beliefs" were ratified at VAT 1, the RCC said, "We are just decalring what has always been believed and confessed"

Which is a crock!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Again, it does not take a formal declaration to know if a church is false. The reformers knew this, and anyone who can read or hear will know it. 

I personally do not need trent or VAT 1 to determine the precise point they were apostate.

God kept His remenat, and it pleased Him to do this for 1500 years. The practices very early on were not apostolic at all. Did some do well with what they had to work with? Of course there are some faithful there. Just like God kept the men from bowing to Baal, He kept a few confessors of the pure unadulterated Gospel of Grace.


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## pastorway (Apr 6, 2005)

so is the Pope still dead or did we just get WAY off track in this thread?


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## kevin.carroll (Apr 6, 2005)

> _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> I love ole Auggie. But I have recently been unhappiliy surprised when I see his platonic influence in his writings.
> 
> The phrase "Subject to error" is actually a man made phrase to cover heresey. It is obvious all men are subject to error.



Let's not be too hard on him. Augustine was a product of his times, as are we. If you really want to have your noodle cooked, study how much Greek philosophy is alluded to in the NT. The concept of Logos is a direct adaptation of Greek philosophy used by NT authors (and later fathers) to try to explain Christ.


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## kevin.carroll (Apr 6, 2005)

> _Originally posted by pastorway_
> so is the Pope still dead or did we just get WAY off track in this thread?



It's funny you should mention that. I was envisioning the following:

FOX NEWS ALERT: Pope still dead.

FOX NEWS ALERT: Pope still to be buried on Friday.


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## The Lamb (Apr 6, 2005)

> _Originally posted by pastorway_
> so is the Pope still dead or did we just get WAY off track in this thread?




I dont know, he died 17 times in the past 25 years....


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## The Lamb (Apr 7, 2005)

> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> ...



I do not agree that the NT Authors were influenced by Greek Philosophy at all Kevin. I agree the fathers were, which I why I believe we have been duped for centuries into thinking they were exalted men on the fringe of Spirit inspiration. Paul most certainly did not use any philosophy in regards to his full Gosepl. Auggie was definately influenced though.



Wow, phillip is right, this has digressed terribly. Let us bury the pope and start a new thread if we must!!!!!!!!!

[Edited on 4-7-2005 by The Lamb]


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## andreas (Apr 7, 2005)

Here is a picture of the Pope kissing the Koran.

http://focusonjerusalem.com/popekissingtorah.jpg

andreas.


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## Scott (Apr 7, 2005)

Joseph: I am just telling you what was a common opinion among reformers. I certainly don't think Rome became a false church early on. To say that it was false from early on would wreck havoc with the Bible's ecclesiology. Of course, the Reformers recognized the serious and often fatal error held by many Roman theologians and congregations. That is different from saying that as a whole it was false. 

Do follow a "trail of blood" theory of church history?


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## Philip A (Apr 7, 2005)

> _Originally posted by pastorway_
> so is the Pope still dead ...?



If not I am going to change eschatological camps....


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## The Lamb (Apr 7, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> Joseph: I am just telling you what was a common opinion among reformers. I certainly don't think Rome became a false church early on. To say that it was false from early on would wreck havoc with the Bible's ecclesiology. Of course, the Reformers recognized the serious and often fatal error held by many Roman theologians and congregations. That is different from saying that as a whole it was false.
> 
> Do follow a "trail of blood" theory of church history?



The eccleisiolgy is one area that departed fast from ythe primitive church.

Again Scott, this is where I think we are.

I say: As a whole if was false, with a few good men.

You say: As a whole it was good with a few bad men.

I do nto follow a teail of blood theory. Read a little about it.

I have always been taught that apostolic in Doctrine was a seperate issue from apostolic in ordination. Perhaps I have been taught wrong, or some reformers elevated the latter.

Either way. Rome propogated a false Gospel very early on.


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## lwadkins (Apr 7, 2005)

*4 KINGS, 5 QUEENS, 70 PRESIDENTS*

A Polish pilgrim weeps as she waits among thousands of faithful to enter Saint Peter's Basilica, to pay last respects to the late Pope John Paul II at the Vatican, April 7, 2005. The funeral of the Pope on Friday will draw the biggest gathering of the powerful and the humble in modern times. Four kings, five queens, at least 70 presidents and prime ministers and more than 14 leaders of other religions will attend alongside what the Vatican expects will be two million faithful; the largest number of pilgrims to converge on St. Peter's Square in its history. REUTERS/Yves Herman


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## weinhold (Apr 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by andreas_
> Here is a picture of the Pope kissing the Koran.
> 
> http://focusonjerusalem.com/popekissingtorah.jpg
> ...



Is he kissing the Koran or the Torah?


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## andreas (Apr 8, 2005)

I do not think the Arab standing on the right would be the owner of the Torah,but either book is not worth kissing anyway.
andreas.


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## Average Joey (Apr 8, 2005)

For all the praise he is getting on the Pope(Fox) News Network,I would have thought they were thinking that he would have been ressurrected by now.

One of my favorite conservative websites Newsmax.com has an opening page right now saying something about goodbye holy father or some mess.


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## kevin.carroll (Apr 8, 2005)

I slept through the funeral...did I miss anything?


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## doulosChristou (Apr 8, 2005)

Walking downtown during lunch today, I passed by a large group of children and priests standing outside the main cathedral, St Mary's. They were letting go helium-filled balloons into the atmosphere. I later found out that these were "prayer" balloons being sent up "to heaven." Each balloon contained prayers hand-written by the children asking that the dead Pope be allowed into heaven. Where do you even begin? The futility of prayers for the dead? The unregenerate state of the pope? The fact that balloons do not float up to God?


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## Ken S. (Apr 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Average Joey_
> For all the praise he is getting on the Pope(Fox) News Network,I would have thought they were thinking that he would have been ressurrected by now.
> 
> One of my favorite conservative websites Newsmax.com has an opening page right now saying something about goodbye holy father or some mess.




During this end time, we've nothing to rely on but God Himself alone. Be brave and stong my brother! Being protestant in an international Chinese city where Pope is also being widely respected within the church, I've realized that I've nothing but the Truth and God's commands. 

No claps from inside the church when you testify for the Truth.
No praises when you try not to comprimise.
No appreciations when you try to be brave.

No more brothers recognize you! Then..... the next thing you know is that you've to be a good boy before God, rely on nothing and nobody else but Him alone.

This is my own feeling: You will be brave when you become desperate and lonely.


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## Ken S. (Apr 8, 2005)

not "stong", it should be "strong"


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## Ken S. (Apr 8, 2005)

This is my own feeling: You will be brave when you become desperate and lonely....coz you won't care how others look at you anymore.


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## kevin.carroll (Apr 12, 2005)

Well here we go. I read yesterday on Yahoo News that reports are coming in of "miracles" attributed to JP2. It looks like he is on the fast track to sainthood.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 12, 2005)

Yep, sainthood is basically a popularity contest in the RCC. There is also talk about bypassing the usual five-year wait before sainthood consideration begins and instead reviving the old method of canonization by acclamation.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 12, 2005)

From the Lycos website: 



> Search activity surrounding the death, funeral and legacy of Pope John Paul II (#1) continues to dominate web interest for the second straight week. Over the past week, searches for the Pope have doubled, with web users particularly interested in the Vatican, Secret Cardinal and Silver Hammer, used to destroy the Pope's ring. The Pope's death, and the lingering question over who will succeed him, has also caused a surge in searches for Nostradamus (#42), who re-enters this week's list for the first time since the Sept. 11 attacks on America. In Sept. 2001, people scoured the Internet in search of any pre-warning of the terrorist attacks from Nostradamus. This time, web users are searching for Nostradaumus' predictions of who will become the next Pope and prophesies regarding Pope John Paul II's successor.


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## blhowes (Apr 12, 2005)

I've been trying my best to avoid news reports about the pope (it gets old pretty quickly), so this may be old news. I just read that Cardinal Law was to be one of the seven chosen to do the pope's mass. Did he actually end up doing it? I would think that, within the catholic community, it'd be considered quite an honor to do the pope's mass. I'm a little amazed that he would have been chosen, especially considering his recent controversy. Does anybody know why he was selected for this 'honor'?

[Edited on 4-12-2005 by blhowes]


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 12, 2005)

Yes, he was given the 'honor' of presiding over mass yesterday. 

According to the Washington Post: 



> Vatican officials have said Law was chosen automatically for the Mass because he is head priest of a major church in Rome, the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore.
> 
> But documents obtained Monday by The Washington Post from the church's archives show that Law's predecessor as archpriest of Santa Maria Maggiore was not given the same role after the death of the previous pope, John Paul I, in 1978.



The fact is, PJPII dealt rather leniently with Law, and this issue is still a thorn in the side of the RCC, as well it should be.


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## blhowes (Apr 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> Yes, he was given the 'honor' of presiding over mass yesterday...The fact is, PJPII dealt rather leniently with Law, and this issue is still a thorn in the side of the RCC, as well it should be.


Its none of my business what the RCC does, but this really blows my mind. I was amazed that he didn't have to serve any jail time, and that he was basically transferred away from the problem, but then to hear this? Wow!


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## blhowes (Apr 12, 2005)

...then, on the way home, I read an article that described Law sitting on the white throne with his fancy red attire...while outside, victims of the child molestation by the priests protest and are carted away by the Italian police...


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## weinhold (Apr 14, 2005)

> _Originally posted by andreas_
> I do not think the Arab standing on the right would be the owner of the Torah,but either book is not worth kissing anyway.
> andreas.



1) Dude, isn't the Torah like, the Old Testament?
2) The reason I asked is because the filename of the picture you provided ends with popekissingtorah.jpg


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## pastorway (Apr 14, 2005)

yes, the Pope is dead.......moving on.......


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