# Should Christians pray for the pope?



## alexandermsmith (Apr 18, 2016)

Hey everyone,

So a friend said the other day that he had read that Christians should _not_ pray for the pope. I was sure I had heard that at some point before as well. He thought he had read it in the Westminster standards, but when he went to check he couldn't find that specific point made. So I had a look in Shaw's commentary, and the closest thing I could see was on the section about not praying for those who had committed the sin unto death, but this didn't refer to the pope. I think it does apply to the pope, however, and that his being the Antichrist is also reason not to pray for him: he who sets himself up against Christ is the avowed enemy of Christ.

But it left us with the questions: is there a Reformed creed or confession which specifically makes this point? Is this a view that was common in the Reformed churches? Are there any writers who talk about this?

If anyone has any suggestions, or thoughts, I'm all ears.


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## AThornquist (Apr 18, 2016)

I don't know if any Reformed creed or confession states not to pray for the pope, but if one does, I would say it is wrong on that point. The pope is a man--a disturbed, sinful, rebellious man. And, like all sinners, he needs to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. I will be fully transparent here: I've never felt compelled to pray for a pope's salvation, but--in my opinion--it's absurd to think it's wrong to pray for _any_ particular person's salvation.


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## timfost (Apr 18, 2016)

For clarification: the original 1646 Westminster says that the pope is the antichrist. The American revision omitted this.


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## alexandermsmith (Apr 18, 2016)

I was hoping we could avoid the argument over the different versions of the confession as the question wasn't really related to that. My church subscribes the confession as originally composed and adopted- as do a number of American denominations. The question was about whether any other creeds or confessions made this point or whether other Reformed writers made the point.

Thanks for all suggestions.


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## StephenG (Apr 18, 2016)

The LCMS adopts the Augsburg Confession which keeps the recognition of the Papacy as Antichrist. 
God bless the Lutherans


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## 2ndViolinist (Apr 18, 2016)

Would it be wrong to pray that the pope abdicate the papacy and publicly denounce the Roman Catholic Church? Perhaps I'm simply ignorant in this matter, but it seems strange to refuse to even pray for someone's salvation.

The pope is AN antichrist but is he THE antichrist? That is also something I am not so sure about.

Does the "sin unto death" speak of unbelief?

Sorry my response had far more questions than answers.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Apr 18, 2016)

alexandermsmith said:


> I think it does apply to the pope, however, and that his being the Antichrist is also reason not to pray for him: he who sets himself up against Christ is the avowed enemy of Christ.
> 
> But it left us with the questions: is there a Reformed creed or confession which specifically makes this point? Is this a view that was common in the Reformed churches? Are there any writers who talk about this?



I have never read of any Reformed confession that explicitly makes this point, though that may just reflect my lack of knowledge. Personally speaking, I agree with you. We are instead to pray that the papacy will be swiftly taken away by the spirit of Christ's mouth.


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## Jake (Apr 18, 2016)

StephenG said:


> The LCMS adopts the Augsburg Confession which keeps the recognition of the Papacy as Antichrist.
> God bless the Lutherans



Along with Presbyterians who keep the original Westminster confession, and Baptists in the LBCF and Philadelphia Confession.


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## ZackF (Apr 18, 2016)

alexandermsmith said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> So a friend said the other day that he had read that Christians should _not_ pray for the pope. I was sure I had heard that at some point before as well. He thought he had read it in the Westminster standards, but when he went to check he couldn't find that specific point made. So I had a look in Shaw's commentary, and the closest thing I could see was on the section about not praying for those who had committed the sin unto death, but this didn't refer to the pope. I think it does apply to the pope, however, and that his being the Antichrist is also reason not to pray for him: he who sets himself up against Christ is the avowed enemy of Christ.
> 
> ...



Seems silly not to. One day he is a Cardinal with his own name and miter. Pray for him. Some non-biblical body of men elect him and he changes his name. Don't pray for him. What about the eras in history with a dispute papacy with pretenders to a pretend office? Pope as THE (definite article) anti-Christ is a back-handed nudge to the false claims of Rome. Pray for the pope!


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## blood-bought (Apr 18, 2016)

I find the points raised by Charles H. Spurgeon to be helpful in the following words: 

It is the bounden duty of every Christian to pray against Antichrist, and as to what Antichrist is no sane man ought to raise a question. If it be not the popery in the Church of Rome and in the Church of England, there is nothing in the world that can be called by that name. If there were to be issued a hue and cry for Antichrist, we should certainly take up this church on suspicion, and it would certainly not be let loose again, for it so exactly answers the description. Popery anywhere, whether it be Anglican or Romish, is contrary to Christ’s Gospel, and is the Antichrist, and we ought to pray against it. It should be the daily prayer of every believer that Antichrist might be hurled like a millstone into the flood and for Christ, because it wounds Christ, because it robs Christ of His glory, because it puts sacramental efficacy in the place of His atonement, and lifts a piece of bread into the place of the Saviour, and a few drops of water into the place of the Holy Ghost, and puts a mere fallible man like ourselves up as the vicar of Christ on earth; if we pray against it, because it is against Him, we shall love the persons though we hate their errors: we shall love their souls though we loath and detest their dogmas, and so the breath of our prayers will be sweetened, because we turn our faces towards Christ when we pray.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...ought to raise a&pg=PT744#v=onepage&q&f=false


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## OPC'n (Apr 18, 2016)

I think the Catholic Church with all its heresy might be an anti-Christ but then so are the Mormon and Jehovah Witness Churches. But those within those churches are lost souls who need prayer for salvation....that would include the Pope. Just think how marvelous it would be if he were converted and started to make changes within the Catholic Church!


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## Dekybo (Apr 18, 2016)

Maybe Luke 6:27-28 applies. "...pray for those who abuse you" (ESV)


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## MW (Apr 18, 2016)

Hebrews 13:18. The Pope does not have a good conscience in the ministry and has no claim to our prayers.

2 John 11, even the slightest support offered for the Pope makes the individual a partaker of his evil deeds.

Praying for the downfall of Popery is not praying for the Pope, in the regular way the word "for" is used in connection with prayer. When the apostle Paul asked for believers to pray "for" him he was requesting prayer in behalf of the building up of his ministry for the glory of Christ and the edification of souls.


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## Afterthought (Apr 18, 2016)

2ndViolinist said:


> The pope is AN antichrist but is he THE antichrist? That is also something I am not so sure about.


According to the original Westminster Confession, the pope is "that Antichrist, that man of sin and son of perdition." If one views the man of sin as "the" antichrist, than the conclusion follows. If one views the man of sin as "an" antichrist, then it does not necessarily follow the pope is THE antichrist. From what I understand, it seems the language of the Confession simply requires holding that the pope is "that particular Antichrist that Paul spoke of: the man of sin" (?).


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## ZackF (Apr 19, 2016)

I think to clarify one would be called to "love an enemy" and "bless those who persecute" us. It's not about praying for the success of papacy as a "ministry" but for an individual as an enemy. Matt 5:43. Why wouldn't we pray for anyone's conversion who is alive.


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## alexandermsmith (Apr 19, 2016)

Thanks for all the thoughts.

There's also John 17:9;12: "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine...While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and *none of them is lost, but the son of perdition*; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

The same term is used in 2 Thess. 2:3 for the "son of perdition", who is regarded to be the Antichrist. Christ categorically does not pray for the son of perdition, and describes him as lost: beyond salvation. Couple this with John's teaching not to pray for those who have committed the sin unto death, I think there's a very strong Scriptural case that we should not pray for the salvation of he who is pope; but certainly pray for the downfall and eradication of the papacy and the wicked system it rules over.


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## Dekybo (Apr 19, 2016)

alexandermsmith said:


> Thanks for all the thoughts.
> 
> There's also John 17:9;12: "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine...While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and *none of them is lost, but the son of perdition*; that the scripture might be fulfilled."
> 
> The same term is used in 2 Thess. 2:3 for the "son of perdition", who is regarded to be the Antichrist. Christ categorically does not pray for the son of perdition, and describes him as lost: beyond salvation. Couple this with John's teaching not to pray for those who have committed the sin unto death, I think there's a very strong Scriptural case that we should not pray for the salvation of he who is pope; but certainly pray for the downfall and eradication of the papacy and the wicked system it rules over.



I think that is a good argument. The difficulty is biblically linking the pope (or is it all popes) to this son of perdition/destruction. If we are not absolutely sure that it is him/them, then we have condemned one who is able to still receive forgiveness. Just my thoughts.


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## Edward (Apr 19, 2016)

MW said:


> The Pope does not have a good conscience in the ministry and has no claim to our prayers.



The WCF teaches us that "Prayer is to be made ... for all sorts of men living, or that shall live hereafter" except those who have committed "the sin unto death"

At what point does the pope then commit that sin unto death? When he takes up the office of the pope? When he discharges the duties of the office?


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## alexandermsmith (Apr 19, 2016)

I would say when he assumes the office. It's the office of the papacy which is the Antichrist. So when the man assumes that office, he has set himself up as Christ on Earth and thus in direct opposition to Christ.


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## Dekybo (Apr 19, 2016)

Edward said:


> MW said:
> 
> 
> > The Pope does not have a good conscience in the ministry and has no claim to our prayers.
> ...



That's my question too. It makes little sense.


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## brendanchatt (Apr 19, 2016)

I don't know if this was mentioned, but it may be applicable. The Westminster standards say we are not to pray for anyone about whom it may be known that they have sinned the sin unto death, referring to 1 John 5:16.


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## Dekybo (Apr 19, 2016)

brendanchatt said:


> I don't know if this was mentioned, but it may be applicable. The Westminster standards say we are not to pray for anyone about whom it may be known that they have sinned the sin unto death, referring to 1 John 5:16.



Great point. Thanks


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## MW (Apr 19, 2016)

Edward said:


> At what point does the pope then commit that sin unto death? When he takes up the office of the pope? When he discharges the duties of the office?



To use the term "the pope" is to recognise someone occupies an office, and that office is either legitimate or illegitimate. If legitimate it falls under "all sorts of men." If illegitimate it not does not fall under the category of which the Confession is speaking.


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## Dearly Bought (Apr 19, 2016)

I am guessing that perhaps your friend had Fisher's Catechism in view,


> Q. 34. For what are we to pray in behalf of our, enemies?
> 
> A. That their hearts may be changed, their tempers softened, that however they have treated us, they may be made Christ's friends, and partakers of eternal salvation through him, Matt. 5:44, compared with Luke 23:34.
> 
> ...


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## alexandermsmith (Apr 20, 2016)

Bryan,

I knew I had read it somewhere! Fisher's Catechism, what a wonderful document. Thanks for reminding me!


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## 2ndViolinist (Apr 20, 2016)

Edward said:


> MW said:
> 
> 
> > The Pope does not have a good conscience in the ministry and has no claim to our prayers.
> ...



Exactly what I was thinking of. How can we be so certain that the pope has committed the sin unto death? Is it impossible that he should ever repent?


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## Dearly Bought (Apr 20, 2016)

2ndViolinist said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> > MW said:
> ...



The WCF seems to assume that it is possible in some manner to identify one who has "sinned unto death." If anyone is certain to have sinned unto death, it is the one who has grieved the Holy Spirit by assuming his titles and office, set himself up in the place of Christ himself, and claimed for himself the position of "Holy Father."


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## MW (Apr 20, 2016)

2ndViolinist said:


> Is it impossible that he should ever repent?



If he believes not, he shall die in his sins. True repentance is impossible to an unbelieving state. While the pope usurps the headship of Christ over His church he is to be regarded as antichrist who denies Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. Should he ever repent he would have to relinquish his position as "pope," which means this discussion would not be relevant to him.

Why are we to pray "for all men?" "That we may lead a quiet and peaceable life." 1 Timothy 2:2. This entails an acceptance that the men for which prayer is made are in legitimate offices of authority and stations of life. The "pope" occupies an office which claims authority. We consider it illegitimate. He does not fall under the category of "all sorts of men" for whom prayer is to be made that we may live in quietness. He occupies an illegitimate position of authority, which means we are bound to seek his removal, not live quietly under his dominion.


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## Edward (Apr 20, 2016)

MW said:


> Should he ever repent he would have to relinquish his position as "pope,"



That raises some interesting questions as to Benedict.


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## 2ndViolinist (Apr 21, 2016)

MW said:


> If he believes not, he shall die in his sins. True repentance is impossible to an unbelieving state. While the pope usurps the headship of Christ over His church he is to be regarded as antichrist who denies Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. Should he ever repent he would have to relinquish his position as "pope," which means this discussion would not be relevant to him.
> 
> Why are we to pray "for all men?" "That we may lead a quiet and peaceable life." 1 Timothy 2:2. This entails an acceptance that the men for which prayer is made are in legitimate offices of authority and stations of life. The "pope" occupies an office which claims authority. We consider it illegitimate. He does not fall under the category of "all sorts of men" for whom prayer is to be made that we may live in quietness. He occupies an illegitimate position of authority, which means we are bound to seek his removal, not live quietly under his dominion.



This is the most helpful explanation. Thank you, Reverend Winzer!


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## OPC'n (Apr 21, 2016)

MW said:


> 2ndViolinist said:
> 
> 
> > Is it impossible that he should ever repent?
> ...



I think I misunderstood the OP. I thought the OP was asking if we should pray for the Pope's salvation, but since you answered this way I'm guessing the OP was asking if we should pray for the Pope in a general manner. But now I'm even more confused. Don't we pray for those in authority to be converted so that we may live in peace....peace meaning free from ungodly rule? The Pope certainly rules in an ungodly manner and robs God's children of peace. Shouldn't we pray for his conversion?


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## MW (Apr 21, 2016)

OPC'n said:


> Don't we pray for those in authority to be converted so that we may live in peace....peace meaning free from ungodly rule? The Pope certainly rules in an ungodly manner and robs God's children of peace. Shouldn't we pray for his conversion?



Kings and those in authority are there by God's ordination. They are legitimate rulers. God has not ordained a bishop of bishops, a holy father, a vicar of Christ on earth, etc. They are self-exalted claims. These claims cause disruption in and of themselves. There can be no quietness while he holds to these.

The man already claims to be converted. Like Hymenaeus and Alexander he must learn not to blaspheme. Any hope for his salvation requires that he be brought down from his self-exalted state.


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## alexandermsmith (Apr 22, 2016)

The original question was whether we should pray for his salvation. I say no, and that seems to be what Fisher's Catechism is saying: the only thing we should pray concerning the pope is that the system will be destroyed. He who assumes the office sins the sin unto death. Even "relinquishing" it, like Benedict, doesn't change that. I don't even know what that means.

I've heard that there is no record of a pope or cardinal ever being converted: as the overseers of the Antichrist system, they have usurped Christ and stood against the testimony of the Holy Spirit, thus sinning the sin unto death.


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## TylerRay (Apr 22, 2016)

Edward said:


> That raises some interesting questions as to Benedict.





alexandermsmith said:


> He who assumes the office sins the sin unto death. Even "relinquishing" it, like Benedict, doesn't change that.



I agree with Alexander--just because one stops committing a particular sin in regard to his actions doesn't mean he has repented.


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## Dekybo (Apr 22, 2016)

Just for my clarity, are we saying that there are and have been many that have committed the sin unto death, many who have claimed the place of Christ even apart from the papacy, and we should not pray for any one of them? Or have we singled out the one who is pope because of his prominence? Is this a condemnation of blasphemous authoritative offices in general?


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