# Happy Guy Fawkes Day!



## davdavis (Nov 5, 2013)

The current glamorization of Fawkes is a mystery. I would particularly be curious to know what English readers think of this.
Everywhere Guy Fawkes, Britain's equivalent of Benedict Arnold or Quisling, Who helped plot a 911 scale act of political murder, is viewed as a hero and symbol of resistant to tyranny. In Recent books and films he receives the most sympathetic treatment.
Speaking as an American, who has a tremendous interests in British History, it has been a mystery to me why current British historians and others are so goo-goo eyed for Guy Fawkes and the recusants. An example was Antonia Frasers "Faith and Treason". Granted Fraser is a Romanist and some prejudice in that direction is inevitable, but not only does she defend the motives of Fawkes and the Jesuits,
but she gives no context whatsoever for the events.
Discrimination against Catholics in Elizabethan and early (James I)
Stuart England can only be seen in the light of the fires of Smithfield , St. Bartholomew's day
and the unending Jesuit conspiracies in England. None of this is mentioned. The fact that the treatment of Protestants in Romanist Europe was far worse is ignored,(as is the fact that in spite of "terrible" persecution Catholics were able to remain in the nobility and hold high positions at court. The two part series Gunpowder Treason and Plot, in 2004, though very well acted, was even worse. The irony is that Fawkes is now portrayed is a symbol of liberty when Counter-reformation Romanism was the most reactionary force imaginable.
As a Presbyterian I am of course conflicted about the event. While I concur with Kipling's assessment that James was "a shifty mothers shiftless son, Learned in all things wise in none" I understand that the success of Fawkes plot would have been a disaster.
I suppose one has to be a liberal to understanding the self loathing, (the late Dr. Rushdoony once
described it as the politics of guilt and pity), that fuels this sort of mentality.

David Davis
PCA
Montgomery, Al.
Dave,s Ravings


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## Peairtach (Nov 5, 2013)

People tend to sympathise to an extent with those "on their own side" even if they take things to immoral extremes, and tend to demonise those on the "other side"; lokk at how Oliver Cromwell was demonised for his activity in Ireland by a strange combination of Royalists and Irish nationalists. Also the passage of time sometimes lends a rosy tint and new spin upon deeds that were perceived as outrageous and wicked.

A comic book called " V for Vendetta" and a movie, in which the protagonist takes on the role of Guido Fawkes against totalitarian forces, together with the mask that he used, and which is now used by assorted anarchists and ne'erdowells around the world, may have further helped portray Fawkes as a freedom fighter rather than a terrorist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_for_Vendetta

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_for_Vendetta_(film)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes_mask




Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2


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## Peairtach (Nov 5, 2013)

An experiment a few years ago showed that if the Gunpowder Plot had gone ahead it would almost certainly have blown the king's head off:

The Gunpowder Plot - Exploding the Legend (1/8) - YouTube

The Gunpowder Plot - Exploding the Legend (6/8) - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFytcsA9mU8&list=PL9C0882150723C206&feature=player_detailpage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skPxy3QC-DE&list=PL9C0882150723C206&feature=player_detailpage


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## Somerset (Nov 5, 2013)

A lot of papists in positions of power and influence over here - especially in the BBC. There is also a lack of knowledge amongst the general public - they think Mr Fawkes wanted to blow up MPs in general, whereas he just wanted to blow up Protestants.

Have a good Guy Fawkes Day


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## Jack K (Nov 5, 2013)

Which of us hasn't, in some not-really-serious-about-it corner of our mind, occasionally harbored a thought about how satisfying it would be to blow the whole annoying seat of government to smithereens?

No wonder the man makes a good folk hero. It's probably more about felt aggravation than serious historical thinking.

(FBI: No need to put me under surveillance. I'd never, ever actually do such a terrible thing, nor would I be glad if it happened.)


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## JasonGoodwin (Nov 5, 2013)

The man who calls himself Francis Turretin on Facebook had some similar albeit brief things to say about that. I can't get past the irony that there are people who sport Guy Fawkes masks as a means of protest. Do they do so out of ignorance, do they think it looks "cool", or do they actually know the meaning behind it and do so with a disobedient and rebellious heart?


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## davdavis (Nov 5, 2013)

Its sort of like John Brown in American. Brown was a Psychopath who murdered unarmed men and young boys in Kansas. He attempted to initiate an armed slave rebellion at Harpers Ferry, Va. {ironically the 1st victim was a free-black railroad switchman.} In spite of his being a bloodthirsty murderer and in spite of his insanity he is revered by many because he was an abolitionist.

David Davis
PCA Montgomery
Dave,s Ravings


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## yeutter (Nov 5, 2013)

Benjamin Breckenridge Warfield was born on this date in 1851. I am thinking of making B. B. Warfield masks to be worn as an alternative to Guy Fawkes masks on this date.


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## davdavis (Nov 5, 2013)

Dabney would be Scarier!


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## Philip (Nov 5, 2013)

JasonGoodwin said:


> I can't get past the irony that there are people who sport Guy Fawkes masks as a means of protest. Do they do so out of ignorance, do they think it looks "cool", or do they actually know the meaning behind it and do so with a disobedient and rebellious heart?



The mask has taken on a vaguely anarchist connotation after the comic book and film which Richard mentioned above. Whatever the original meaning of the mask, that's what it means now. The real irony is that Guy Fawkes day is supposed to celebrate the _foiling_ of the plot.


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## JasonGoodwin (Nov 6, 2013)

yeutter said:


> Benjamin Breckenridge Warfield was born on this date in 1851. I am thinking of making B. B. Warfield masks to be worn as an alternative to Guy Fawkes masks on this date.


THIS!!!

Although I can imagine that it might be a bit easier for some of the bearded men on this forum.


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## Hemustincrease (Nov 6, 2013)

When I was a child, people used to make a Guy Fawkes dummy, wheel it around the village to show everybody and maybe get some pennies for your effort and then happily burn it on the top of their bonfire.


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## Jack K (Nov 6, 2013)

Hemustincrease said:


> When I was a child, people used to make a Guy Fawkes dummy, wheel it around the village to show everybody and maybe get some pennies for your effort and then happily burn it on the top of their bonfire.



My understanding is that this is the more traditional approach to the day, right?


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## Peairtach (Nov 6, 2013)

Hemustincrease said:


> When I was a child, people used to make a Guy Fawkes dummy, wheel it around the village to show everybody and maybe get some pennies for your effort and then happily burn it on the top of their bonfire.



Have they stopped?

I suppose most 5th November bonfires these days are run by the local town council. I haven't been down to the Perth one in yonks, or to any such November 5th celebration.

Health and safety ('Elf an' Safety), along with political correctness are killing so many traditions and ruining this country.

We live in sad and godless days.


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## JoannaV (Nov 6, 2013)

Now it gets mixed up with Halloween. Also in school one gets the impression that Guy Fawkes was framed. I am not aware of any of this glamorisation you speak of, but then I am kind of not very aware culturally...


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## iainduguid (Nov 6, 2013)

JoannaV said:


> Now it gets mixed up with Halloween. Also in school one gets the impression that Guy Fawkes was framed. I am not aware of any of this glamorisation you speak of, but then I am kind of not very aware culturally...



Of course, in the 17th century there were state-mandated worship services in England to celebrate November 5th every year. Would those be OK, or would they fall under the same ban as Christmas and Easter?


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## Philip (Nov 6, 2013)

iainduguid said:


> JoannaV said:
> 
> 
> > Now it gets mixed up with Halloween. Also in school one gets the impression that Guy Fawkes was framed. I am not aware of any of this glamorisation you speak of, but then I am kind of not very aware culturally...
> ...



The Puritans were usually fine with occasions of national thanksgiving, as I recall, just not with religious holy days.


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## ZackF (Nov 6, 2013)

I've thought the glamorization of Guy Fawkes over there is similar to the hipster Che Guevara t-shirt wearing thing here. It has a vague reference to rebellion but the celebrators in either case are often bone ignorant about history and the man celebrated.


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## Hemustincrease (Nov 8, 2013)

Peairtach said:


> Have they stopped?
> 
> I suppose most 5th November bonfires these days are run by the local town council. I haven't been down to the Perth one in yonks, or to any such November 5th celebration.
> 
> ...



I’ve only been back in the UK for two years, but I haven’t seen any Guys since returning. It seems to have become more about who can send up the biggest firework. I don’t know about Scotland, but here in England the fireworks seem to go on from Halloween right through to New Years Eve. The Vets must love it. All the poor dogs and cats end up on tranquilizers for months. LOL


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