# Addictions



## Don Kistler (Mar 12, 2012)

I'm interested in reading your responses to what I am about to post. We hear much in day about addictions (the words "prevailing sins" is almost never used). People are addicted to sex, to alcohol, to drugs, to any of a number of things, and those things are almost always sinful behaviors. 

So, can a person be addicted to sinful behavior and be a true Christian? Jonathan Edwards had a sermon, the doctrine of which was this: Men's addictions to sin are no excuse for their behavior, but rather an aggravation of it.

His thinking was that before a person could be addicted to something, he had to commit that behavior so many times that he could no longer NOT do it. And how can excessive sinning be an excuse for sinning?

Please stick to the norm here rather than bringing in chemical imbalance types of situations, which are likely a whole other discussion, and are extremely difficult to prove.

I look forward to your responses. Thank you!

---------- Post added at 12:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:14 PM ----------

The Scriptural basis for the question is Paul's statement that "they who practice these things shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven." Among the things listed are drunkeness, fornication, and "things like these."


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## O'GodHowGreatThouArt (Mar 12, 2012)

Certainly, but that's not the main issue. The main issue is this: Are they fighting that addiction, or are they allowing that addiction to control their life unchecked?


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## RobertPGH1981 (Mar 12, 2012)

I would say that you would be considered a Christian as long there is a struggle with that "addiction" (Romans 7). 

Drug addicts for instance have a hard time letting go of their old habits. Drug addiction goes further than just physical dependency, for example, there can also be signs of excess negative thinking that can pull the addict back into their old drug habits. Because the new christian (former addict) has lack of experience with dealing with emotional pain they have a tenancy to "relapse" because of their lack of experience, trust and faith in God. 

Doesn't mean they are not saved, but more a war between the flesh and the spirit. An unrepentant person consistently falling into these habits would not be a Christian because there is no repentance and struggle. The world does not struggle with their sinful tenancies, and a person who claims to be christian without struggle should question their own salvation.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Mar 12, 2012)

Something that should also be considered is, can a Christian sear his conscience?


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## RobertPGH1981 (Mar 12, 2012)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> Something that should also be considered is, can a Christian sear his conscience?



I think that you can for a season... I think God will eventually remind/convict you of the sin... However, I can't think of any verses to support this claim as of right now.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Mar 12, 2012)

RobertPGH1981 said:


> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> > Something that should also be considered is, can a Christian sear his conscience?
> ...




A seared conscience seems to be a symptom of something worse according to this passage.



> (1Ti 4:1) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
> 
> (1Ti 4:2) Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;


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## Miss Marple (Mar 12, 2012)

RobertPGH1981 said:


> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> > Something that should also be considered is, can a Christian sear his conscience?
> ...



King David comes to mind.


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## FenderPriest (Mar 12, 2012)

Resource: Addictions: A Banquet in the Grave: Finding Hope in the Power of the Gospel by Edward T. Welch


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## a mere housewife (Mar 12, 2012)

I hope this question is not presumptuous -- if so, please forgive me -- but are not all of us are to some degree 'addicted' to sin in this life? Are we not all to some degree those persons who shall not inherit the kingdom, in the sins of our heart? I remember a beautiful quote Rev. King posted here when he was with us from an early church father so suited to this lifelong and terrible condition -- 'Therefore, I exhort, I entreat, and I beg you never to stop confessing your faults to God. . . Open your conscience before God, show him your wounds, and beg him for medication to heal them. . . ' (from this thread: http://www.puritanboard.com/f18/did-st-john-chrysostom-say-66087/ ) Whatever the sin we have been overtaken in, and no matter how our conscience has failed us, as David's failed him for such a long time - no matter how often we have repented before, or how many times we may need to repent again; now is an acceptable time and a day of salvation, for Christ is merciful today as He was yesterday, and will be forever. I cannot help thinking this knowledge more important than knowing how far a person may fall into sin and still be a believer. The _believer_ can know that however far he has fallen, yet with the Lord there is mercy, and with the Lord there is plenteous redemption: that the Lord can and will redeem Israel from all his iniquity. Our Great Physician's medicine is strong enough for all our sins.

(Please do forgive me if I've misspoken. I have struggled so with despair for most of my life over my own daily failures, and there has never been help in that struggle for me in doubting my state of grace. There is help for me only in not doubting the mercy of my God: 'Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will _abundantly pardon_.')


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## Unoriginalname (Mar 12, 2012)

I think there can be some sort of distinction drawn between repeated unrepentant compulsive sin and a genuine struggle. I feel that if someone had for example substance abuse issues prior to their conversion that it would continue to be the sin that easily besets them for the rest of their life. It should not be surprising that such an individual when they fail would generally fail along those lines. Maybe by modern standards they could be considered to have an addiction but I believe that the true measurement should be the individuals attitude (to the best we can measure that) and even openness to the weakness in their life.


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## InSlaveryToChrist (Mar 12, 2012)

I think that when it comes to confirming whether we're saved or not, we should not only pay attention to _our struggle with sin_ but also to _our production of the fruits of the Spirit_. Both has to be there.


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## Wayne (Mar 12, 2012)

Joshua said:


> Wonderful words, Bat's Wife.



She has time to compose great stuff when Ruben's out driving around : http://www.puritanboard.com/f103/ruben-why-didnt-you-wave-73246/


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## Pergamum (Mar 12, 2012)

I John seems to distinguish between occasional sin (thank God he is faithful and just to forgive) and a continued pattern of sin. 

So, is a person's fight with an addiction marked by a pattern of occasional stumbling, or is the normal gait of the person one of stumbling, with occasional bouts of obedience?


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## RobertPGH1981 (Mar 12, 2012)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> A seared conscience seems to be a symptom of something worse according to this passage.
> 
> (1Ti 4:1) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
> 
> (1Ti 4:2) Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;



This statement is somewhat confusing statement as the following verses say once saved always saved: 

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. 
Joh 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 

The only thing we can conclude from the above verses in Titus is the statements made in 1 John and 2 Peter would be true:

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. 

2Pe 2:22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire." 

It does say depart from the faith, but it may be used in the sense that they were among us, appeared to have faith but turned away.


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## Edward (Mar 12, 2012)

Don Kistler said:


> So, can a person be addicted to sinful behavior and be a true Christian?



If this is followed to its logical conclusion, don't we end up with a 'works based' salvation? Or would it go the other way - if you have enough faith, you won't have this illness?


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## Pergamum (Mar 12, 2012)

Edward: I think he is referring to the evidential value of good works. A good tree bears good fruit. If your fruit is mixed, it is harder to know whether you are fooling yourself about your state.


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## christiana (Mar 12, 2012)

We have no righteousness of our own, only His imputed righteousnes. Our default mode is 'sin' and we will do it either thoughtlessly or automatically unless we walk close to Him, examine our heart and keep our mind, eyes and heart fixed on Him! The alternative is one who calls himself 'christian' but lives in a manner lacking fruit of such and showing by his behavior that he is only a professor. All of us are addicted to sin unless and until our Lord intervenes and shows us the beauty of His holiness!


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## Mushroom (Mar 12, 2012)

1____2____3____4____5____6____7____8____9____10

Now that we've got a scale to work with, let's come up with a specific number above which one must attain to be elect. Insert your own criteria.

Actually, I think the scale would be more like yes____no, and the criteria is do you possess Christ alone as your justification. All the rest gets worked out by the Holy Spirit.


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## MarieP (Mar 12, 2012)

Don Kistler said:


> So, can a person be addicted to sinful behavior and be a true Christian?



I would say yes- what is addiction but idolatry? Like others have said, though, it's only for a season

Though I guess you could be somewhat addicted to something without making it an idol- coffee, for instance. We'd have to define the terms.

Welcome to the PB, brother!


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## jwithnell (Mar 13, 2012)

Can't addictions be explained medically with differences in brain scans among those who respond to alcohol, drugs, fill in the blank, with greater activity in portions of their brain than the non-addictive person? But that still doesn't give someone an "out" for sin, the struggle just may be stronger and may require an even greater discipline to avoid the opportunity.



> I have struggled so with despair for most of my life over my own daily failures, and there has never been help in that struggle for me in doubting my state of grace.


 Heidi, have you ever seen JC Ryle's _Assurance_. My pastor gave it to me at one point and I found it extremely helpful.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Mar 13, 2012)

I believe there is a difference between a hardened heart and a seared conscience. But maybe not. 



> (Heb 3:8) Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
> 
> (Heb 3:9) When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
> 
> ...





> (1Co 10:1) Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
> 
> (1Co 10:2) And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
> 
> ...




These passages were written to the Church. They were exhortations to flee sin. There is something very evident and dangerous about this situation. 
King David hardened his heart to the point of breaking all Ten Commandments in a serious way. God didn't impute his sin after the fact but King David was brought back and he didn't sin in the same manner again. Psalm 51 is a very beautiful song. Romans 8 seems to tell us that we are no longer in bondage and are free as does Romans 6. Christ breaks that bondage for us in regeneration. The practice of sin in an unrepentant way that doesn't bother our consciences should lead us to know we are in a dangerous area. I have been there a few times. It is a loss of our first love as Rev. 2:4,5 state. I fear for myself in this. At the same time I wholly lean on and boast in the Cross of Christ. 

(Rev 2:4) Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

(Rev 2:5) Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

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## J. Dean (Mar 13, 2012)

Another question to ponder along these lines: do any of us here have a sin we have repented of, and yet have returned to? 

I have. Not justifying it, not condoning it, and I certainly don't wallow in it. But I've done it.

As has been said earlier, there's a difference between struggling with a prevailing sin and simply continuing in prevailing sin with no remorse or signs of repentance. Even Paul had this problem (Romans 7)


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## a mere housewife (Mar 13, 2012)

jwithnell said:


> Heidi, have you ever seen JC Ryle's Assurance. My pastor gave it to me at one point and I found it extremely helpful.



What a kind suggestion; thank you. I'm ashamed to confess that I generally find works on assurance to be terrifying; and I have some other misgivings about Ryle for a sensitive conscience (one of my dearest friends with OCD suffered a quite serious nervous breakdown reading his _Holiness_: I debate about mentioning it, but it might be good for others to be aware of the potential for problems with some standard works in some states/conditions: yet please know I am not so uncharitable as to ascribe all the issues of a sensitive conscience to the making of a godly author who inadvertently aggravates its struggles). One of the most helpful things I have read was Thomas Goodwin's _Christ Set Forth_, and _The Heart of Christ in Heaven for Sinners on Earth_. I do feel very 'safe' recommending anyone to Goodwin, who seemed to have a very experienced and sensitive pastoral heart for any kind of struggle; and who I think understood that the most simple and direct act of faith in looking at Christ is the greatest comfort and help to sinners.


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## RobertPGH1981 (Mar 13, 2012)

a mere housewife said:


> I have struggled so with despair for most of my life over my own daily failures, and there has never been help in that struggle for me in doubting my state of grace.



I have found Jay Adams manual on Biblical Counseling helpful in areas of depression/despair. I have a tendency to be depressed, but I have found his approach to be effective. 

Here is a link:

Jay Adams: "The Christian Counselors Manual"

Amazon.com: Christian Counselor's Manual, The (9780310511502): Jay E. Adams: Books

I use this to try to council myself, with the help of the holy spirit of course.


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## jwright82 (Mar 13, 2012)

God has so desighned us to be creatures of habit. There is something wise to this because it allows our conscience minds to do other things while our body goes through the motions. But since we are by nature sinful we develop habits that are sinful. The difference between being addicted to drugs and being addicted to a T.V. show that you probably shouldn't watch is a matter of degree. They key psychological difference is functionality. A drug addict is one who's drug use prevents him or her from being able to function in life. I whole heartedly believe that addictions that will manifest spiritual misfunctioning in the life of the beleiver before they manifest misfunctioning in other areas.

On the spiritual side who are we to decide if someone is truly saved or not? The church has to make a best guess on these matters when excersizing discipline but they don't utter an emphatic yes or no either way, they treat you as if you are not saved due to the evidence given by your behaviour. The man that Paul tells the corinthians to excommunicate in 1Cor. 5 for a severe sexual addicted to lust type sin who's spirit "may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus", vs. 5, is presumbably saved. We get confirmation in 2 Cor. 2: 6-7, if it is the same person. What about Soloman? Surely he was saved and a massive addict at the same time? 

On a personal note I am a recovering addict from p0rnography and drug use. The whole time that I left the church and went into my darkest hour, by choice, I know now that I was always saved and God was always there with me. At the time the relization that He never left me was frustrating but now I take great comfort in knowing that no matter how dark my life gets He will never leave me nor forsake me, Heb. 13:5. So I keep struggling with my former addictions and pray for spiritual maturaty. I know quite well what Paul means by waring with the flesh thanks to my addictions. Some of us in Celebrate Recovery will say that our addictions were the best thing that ever happened to us.

---------- Post added at 10:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 AM ----------

Oh and I would perfectly well understand if someone doubted whether or not I was saved during that time or not, I didn't want my personal note to insolate my view from criticism or disagreement. I will not be offended if someone takes that view. What matters is that I am a child God now for sure. I just wanted to add that for some perspective from someone who was a former addict.


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## Alan D. Strange (Mar 13, 2012)

Apart from the language and concept of addictions, remaining sin in the believer is an ever-present reality. Romans 7 particularly testifies to this (as noted above). It is the great struggle of our lives. Though it may seem to dominate, and feel like it at times, we who are in Christ (as opposed to in Adam) have been made alive and are always called, in the call to grateful obedience, to be who we are in Him. We are ever called away from the slavery of sin to the joy of walking with Him, of dying to sin and living to righteousness, not so as to gain His favor but because we have it. 

I love to think about and encourage saints with this: if Jesus did not secure God's favor for us, what can we do to secure it? We have the Father's favor in the Lord Jesus. This means that though we continue to struggle to love, to be content, to put off all the works of the flesh and to bring forth the fruit of the Spirit, we are accepted now in the Beloved. 

Truth be told, we are far more sinful than we can ever realize. We have a tiny glimpse of His love; so, too, with our sinfulness. How wonderful to bask in His love, His grace, that is greater than all our sin!

Don, may I ask if what you sought to achieve in your OP has been achieved in this thread? I am not perfectly clear on what you were asking and so I wonder if the responses have been helpful or have addressed what it is that you sought to have addressed here?

Peace,
Alan


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## PuritanCovenanter (Mar 13, 2012)

I do want to say this. Sanctification (becoming holy in action and attitude) is a life long process. The older we get the more sin and struggle we will have to deal with as we become aware of it and as life lays it's hard times upon us. We all will react different to those situations. Some things we repress and they don't surface till later years. We all grow on different levels and at different times as our children do. 

Once we are family and adopted into the family we are blood. Nothing can stop that. God will never forsake us. I know that by faith. I know that by experience. 



> (Rom 5:1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
> 
> 
> (Rom 5:2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
> ...





> Rom_8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
> 
> 
> Rom_8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
> ...



My Grandma taught me one thing. Life is about growing up. You will be growing up till the day you die. You will be learning a new thing in every stage of life. You will be an infant at every stage needing to mature. 

My Grandpa use to say three steps forward and two back sometimes. That was way before Chuck Swindoll came out with the book by that title. Sometimes I have taken six backwards after three forward. 

My Pastor Joe Gwynn taught me if you aren't maturing something is wrong. You shouldn't see a 3 year old who can't talk. Something is abnormal there. If there is abnormaility things must be examined to determine what is wrong. Yes, things can be wrong and it might be by God's providence. Then we must bear the child differently and still love them as God created them. 

There are situations that render the Church to have to discern and act accordingly. 

In Christ one is saved for eternity. No one can take that away. Even if that isn't understood by the individual who doubts, it is still true. Some shouldn't be so presumptuous about this though. Even Jesus said some would call him Lord and not have eternal life. 

But there is great comfort in knowing that Christ came to pay a price and die for sinners of whom I am a Chief of sin. Nothing in my hand I bring, simply to the cross I cling. That is the person and work of Christ.

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## heartoflesh (Mar 13, 2012)

I quit chewing Copenhagen after 35 years on the stuff last December. Just cold turkey, and I'm sure glad I did. Now I'm addicted to Hall's menthol cough drops so I guess I traded one addiction for another. I go through about a dozen a day!


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## JimmyH (Mar 14, 2012)

The world, the flesh and the devil. Perhaps because I'm on volume 7 of the 8 volume Ephesians series by Rev. Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones, I am more focused on the part the devil plays in the equation. I'm sure all are familiar with Ephesians, 6:11, Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 

My personal Christian experience has been supernatural as well as one of intellectual pursuit. The Holy Spirit has, and does witness to my spirit, and I am ever aware of 'grieving the Holy Spirit. In volume five of the Ephesians series Reverend Lloyd-Jones exposition on Ephesians 4:22-24; 22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

In his exposition Dr Lloyd-Jones points out that it is we who have to put off the old man and put on the new man. We are not told in the scriptures to pray that the old man is put off and the new man put on. It is not something that is done for us, according to the Doctor's reading of it, .... we have to do it. Focusing on the grace, love and mercy of our Father in heaven is an essential but I cannot forget that I am told it is a strait gate and a narrow way that leads to life and few there be that find it. 

My addiction is to tobacco smoking pipes and I'm somewhat of a collector of stuff. Books, tobacco pipes, straight razors for shaving and such. I am somewhat convicted in regard to these habits and hope to eventually find the willingness to follow the direction of the Spirit and give them up. I've been unsuccessful up until now but I'm working on it. .

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## J. Dean (Mar 14, 2012)

I will say this: I must tip my hat to Lutherans on this point because of their emphasis on depending on the gospel, even at the risk of sounding like Antinomians. While I don't like their de-emphasis on sanctification, they do have a point in saying that over-concentrating on sanctification is an easy step towards works-righteousness (and since I'm in the company of many Wesleyans, I can't say they're wrong about this).


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## a mere housewife (Mar 14, 2012)

J. Dean said:


> I will say this: I must tip my hat to Lutherans on this point because of their emphasis on depending on the gospel, even at the risk of sounding like Antinomians. While I don't like their de-emphasis on sanctification, they do have a point in saying that over-concentrating on sanctification is an easy step towards works-righteousness (and since I'm in the company of many Wesleyans, I can't say they're wrong about this).



Mr. Dean (my maiden surname , I too love the emphasis on the gospel. However simply from my own experience, what I understand to be the Lutheran view of the law (which was the only view I had learned for many years) is a disaster for some of us. For as long as the law is still something external to this peace with God in Christ -- it is always only a force of compounding guilt; simply a righteousness to which we are never measuring up, no matter how hard we try. Sanctification becomes more of a burden than sin, almost. Every effort at holiness is simply another piece of our condemnation. I have only understood in the past year that the law is part of my peace with God now. I hope someone will correct me if I am still getting this wrong -- but as I understand, it is something I now receive from the hands of my gracious Christ. I believe Prufrock explained this well somewhere (here: http://www.puritanboard.com/f103/law-gospel-non-polemical-thread-69840/), in a thread dedicated to it -- and Rev. Winzer has also explained this in a way that I could understand. As such, even my weakest and most sin tainted efforts at holiness are 'accepted in the Beloved' and sanctification is like a toddler learning to walk to the stretched out arms of its parent. No matter how many times it falls, it, and its efforts at walking, are received and rejoiced in. The law is now the stretched out arms of my Saviour, helping me learn how to walk. I think the law becomes a problem when it is not part and parcel of this 'looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.'

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## J. Dean (Mar 14, 2012)

a mere housewife said:


> Mr. Dean (my maiden surname , I too love the emphasis on the gospel. However simply from my own experience, what I understand to be the Lutheran view of the law (which was the only view I had learned for many years) is a disaster for some of us. For as long as the law is still something external to this peace with God in Christ -- it is always only a force of compounding guilt; simply a righteousness to which we are never measuring up, no matter how hard we try. Sanctification becomes more of a burden than sin, almost. Every effort at holiness is simply another piece of our condemnation. I have only understood in the past year that the law is part of my peace with God now. I hope someone will correct me if I am still getting this wrong -- but as I understand, it is something I now receive from the hands of my gracious Christ. I believe Prufrock explained this well somewhere (here: http://www.puritanboard.com/f103/law-gospel-non-polemical-thread-69840/), in a thread dedicated to it -- and Rev. Winzer has also explained this in a way that I could understand. As such, even my weakest and most sin tainted efforts at holiness are 'accepted in the Beloved' and sanctification is like a toddler learning to walk to the stretched out arms of its parent. No matter how many times it falls, it, and its efforts at walking, are received and rejoiced in. The law is now the stretched out arms of my Saviour, helping me learn how to walk. I think the law becomes a problem when it is not part and parcel of this 'looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.'


Quite right, Heidi. The law tutors us and guides us, showing us how to conform to the image of Christ which the new birth is already shaping in us via the Holy Spirit.

Strange thing about us Calvinists: Lutherans (at least the ones I've interacted with) accuse us of being too legalistic with regard to the law, and Wesleyans accuse us of being too antinomian. Must mean we're at a happy medium!


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## a mere housewife (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks, Mr. Dean. I wonder if some of what has happened is that the reformed have actually lost their own middle ground, and the vacuum has been filled, at least in the practice of many of us pew persons, with a vague mish mash of Lutheran and Wesleyan views? Hence though I grew up reformed and was never taught antinomianism, I didn't understand that the law itself is now part of my acceptance with God, and His favor to me. Personally I can understand why antinomianism is the only viable option once one divorces the law from the gospel.

And this is why I love what Dr. Strange and Joshua said especially, about how -- with what hope and assurance of favor in Christ -- we are to fight our indwelling sins every day, whatever they may be. Thanks all for your patience with me in this discussion: I am still understanding some of these issues, which are tremendously important to every one of us, I believe.


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## Alan D. Strange (Mar 14, 2012)

Brother Don Kistler:

What do you make of this discussion? How does it track with your thinking? What is your assessment of the comments, at least as to the tenor of the majority of them?

Peace,
Alan


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## Don Kistler (Mar 14, 2012)

Alan, I don't think most of the comments have even addressed my question. Several seem to want to make sure that we don't eliminate grace from the equation, which I understand. But Paul still makes it clear that practicing sins rules out the idea of getting into heaven. Folks have heaped caveats and qualifiers on that without addressing his statement.

It seems to me that a person who repeatedly gives himself over to a sin cannot be said to be struggling with it. Several of the responses seem to eliminate the role and power of the Holy Spirit in obtaining victory over sin, though, granted, that is not fully realized in this life. 

Obviously I don't believe in Wesleyan perfectionism, but at the same time does not the Scripture say that we are no longer slaves to sin, but rather slaves to righteousness?

Ok, I'm read for the onslaught of angry responses...





Alan D. Strange said:


> Brother Don Kistler:
> 
> What do you make of this discussion? How does it track with your thinking? What is your assessment of the comments, at least as to the tenor of the majority of them?
> 
> ...


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## J. Dean (Mar 14, 2012)

I don't think anybody disputes that a person who is saved shows it via a change of life. That's why I made the point that there is a difference between struggling with sin vs. wallowing in it. 

In Gal 5, just before the fruit of the Spirit list, Paul gives the Galatians a works of the flesh list, and at the end states that those who practice such things cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Both Alistair Begg and John MacArthur in their exposition of this passage state that the implication of verse 21 is a persistent, willful, and impenitent sin. It is a person sinning and not caring that they sin at all. This is also applied to Heb. 10:26 and I John 3:9. 

Remember, the same Paul that wrote Galatians 5:21 also wrote Romans chapter 7.


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## Miss Marple (Mar 14, 2012)

"It is a person sinning and not caring that they sin at all. "

How about a person persisting in a sin but denying that it is sinful? Would that apply?

Examples: Yells at children in an ugly fashion routinely, yet says God wants her to; it is part of disciplining her children. Lives on welfare as a permanent lifestyle, although able to work; saying God has provided for him and his family in that way, and does not want him to be a materialist or hung up on money. Short shifts at work, does personal stuff at work, gets by doing as little as possible, as a permanent way of life; but says it is no sin because the employer does not pay him enough and owes it to him.

Even after confronted biblically over any of the issues above, will not acknowledge they are sinning or repent.

Is that person a Christian?


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## J. Dean (Mar 14, 2012)

Miss Marple said:


> "It is a person sinning and not caring that they sin at all. "
> 
> How about a person persisting in a sin but denying that it is sinful? Would that apply?
> 
> ...


At the very least it speaks of a person who is not where they should be (which is possible for a true Christian. See David in II Samuel 11; that whole matter with Bathsheba wasn't just a one day or one week thing; if I'm reading that text right, it spans nine months at least). At worst... yeah, that person should probably question whether or not they've ever possessed saving faith to begin with.

As I mentioned earlier, it's a slippery slope either way if we're not careful. If you go one way, you fall into antinomianism; while the other way paves the way for works-righteousness/legalism (or at the very least an unrealistic Wesleyan perfectionism). We have to walk a scriptural line on this.


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## timmopussycat (Mar 14, 2012)

a mere housewife said:


> jwithnell said:
> 
> 
> > Heidi, have you ever seen JC Ryle's Assurance. My pastor gave it to me at one point and I found it extremely helpful.
> ...



Hello Heidi, have you seen this fine resource for those of us who struggle with a sensitive consciences? A Lifting Up for the Downcast (Puritan Paperbacks): Amazon.ca: William Bridge: Books


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## a mere housewife (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks to those who have offered reading suggestions to me. They are very kind. 

Dr. Kistler, I hope the tone of my own posts did not come across as angry (if so, I apologise); though I am sure I must be among those who somewhat sidetracked your thread! I look forward to further responses to your questions.


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## py3ak (Mar 14, 2012)

The original question appears to be focussed pretty narrowly on the question of whether a believer may so fall under the sway of a repeated sinful behavior that he becomes unable to change.

In one sense, certainly. We are all constantly unable to change. It's not a question, in many cases, of forming a new habit: we are already full of sinful habits (in the Aristotelian sense).

The question can be restated: has God promised deliverance from addiction to sinful behaviors? Well, we have no absolute promise of entire freedom from any sin except the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

But can sin ultimately and totally prevail? No. There is the promise "we shall go no more out." The seed of God abides, and it will not be forever dormant - indeed, it is not dormant now even if its workings cannot be easily perceived. We will believe, we will persevere, we will repent and beg forgiveness again, to the end of our lives; being crucified with Christ we will crucify the flesh with its affections and lusts, we will mortify the deeds of the body. But it isn't over until death. Crucifixion is a slow and lingering way to die, for our sins as well for anything: it was a surprise to Pilate that Christ's crucifixion ended things so quickly. And yet crucifixion is the means we have to put our sin to death: it will inevitably take a while. If we take the figures of Romans 13:14, of smothering and starving the flesh, those forms of death are also messy and agonizing.


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## jwright82 (Mar 14, 2012)

I think the OP was, and please correct me Dr. Kistler if I get it wrong, looking for a simple yes or no response followed by an exlpanation. And the overwelming response was "its not that simple".


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## O'GodHowGreatThouArt (Mar 14, 2012)

jwright82 said:


> I think the OP was, and please correct me Dr. Kistler if I get it wrong, looking for a simple yes or no response followed by an exlpanation. And the overwelming response was "its not that simple".



Because it isn't. Prevailing sins from ones life prior to the Holy Spirit ransacking their hearts and spirits oftentimes do not stop when that person is saved. Many a times those sins will carry over into their life as a Christian. This is especially true with major issues such as depression as well as addictions to food, sex, and/or drugs.

We cannot go walking around and say someone is or isn't a Christian based on whether there's an addiction in their life or not. Some people have to fight a war over past sins and past addictions. It is quite possible that a few people will not find peace and relief from that battle until the day they are in the Lord's presence with a glorified body free of sin.

As I said before, the biggest question is not whether the addiction exists. Just because one does doesn't mean they're not a child of God. The question that should be seeking a "Yes/No" answer is whether that person is at war with it or not. That is the question that betrays the state of their faith.


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## jwright82 (Mar 14, 2012)

O'GodHowGreatThouArt said:


> Because it isn't. Prevailing sins from ones life prior to the Holy Spirit ransacking their hearts and spirits oftentimes do not stop when that person is saved. Many a times those sins will carry over into their life as a Christian. This is especially true with major issues such as depression as well as addictions to food, sex, and/or drugs.
> 
> We cannot go walking around and say someone is or isn't a Christian based on whether there's an addiction in their life or not. Some people have to fight a war over past sins and past addictions. It is quite possible that a few people will not find peace and relief from that battle until the day they are in the Lord's presence with a glorified body free of sin.
> 
> As I said before, the biggest question is not whether the addiction exists. Just because one does doesn't mean they're not a child of God. The question that should be seeking a "Yes/No" answer is whether that person is at war with it or not. That is the question that betrays the state of their faith.



I completly agree.


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## Alan D. Strange (Mar 15, 2012)

Don Kistler said:


> Alan, I don't think most of the comments have even addressed my question. Several seem to want to make sure that we don't eliminate grace from the equation, which I understand. But Paul still makes it clear that practicing sins rules out the idea of getting into heaven. Folks have heaped caveats and qualifiers on that without addressing his statement.
> 
> It seems to me that a person who repeatedly gives himself over to a sin cannot be said to be struggling with it. Several of the responses seem to eliminate the role and power of the Holy Spirit in obtaining victory over sin, though, granted, that is not fully realized in this life.
> 
> Obviously I don't believe in Wesleyan perfectionism, but at the same time does not the Scripture say that we are no longer slaves to sin, but rather slaves to righteousness?



Don:

Thanks for the reply.

I am still trying to see exactly what it is that you are seeking from the PB in your original post. You note that folk have offered "caveats and qualifiers" to what Paul said in I Corinthians 6:9 when he wrote "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God." And in offering such, you allege that those same folk have failed to address "his statement," presumably that which was just cited, that the "unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God."

I am not clear why you find the comments that have been made to be unresponsive. First of all, I have read no one on this board denying what the Holy Apostle said: Those who are persistent and impenitent in wickedness have no true faith and will perish. That's what Paul meant. He clearly did not mean that the reality of remaining sin and the struggle against it ruled one out because it would have ruled out all the Corinthians, whom he regarded as saints (in the main; I Cor. 1:2, 6:11). 

Secondly, I think that you want to be more careful pastorally to characterize all these comments as simply unresponsive. These comments reflect dear saints laying their hearts on the line, speaking of their struggles, pursuing repentance and holiness, all the while feeling keenly in themselves how far short they fall. They need to be encouraged, as does Paul here in Corinthians, as does the Hebrew's author when he warns them and then tells them that he believes better things of them. When one brings up the kind of question as you have among godly people, the response is customarily just as we have witnessed: godly folk lamenting their sin and ardently wishing for holiness.

This list in I Corinthians has on it idolaters. As Calvin said, we are idol factories. And we ever need to repent of our idolatry. What of the list in Galatians 5? It includes grosser outward sins along side of "hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions...envy" and so forth. Our churches are full of this, with professed believers walking in these sins unaware who would never commit the more obvious sins like the sexual ones or drunkeness. Many evidently have hatred or envy that has little or no outward manifestation yet it is condemned alongside adultery and fornication. What's my point? Are we to understand those with such sin, perhaps unrecognized (many Christians do not recognize how they lack in love of their neighbor), as unbelievers? Are sessions to regard them as such? Do we make judgments about such things independent of the body of elders? We warn such in our churches, but authoritative application is made by the elders. 

I agree with Paul in I Corinthians 6:9 as does everyone I have read here. Folk have gone on to say a good bit more, a good bit more that is precious and heartfelt, a good bit more that should make us careful to encourage one another. 

A certain kind of "if you're not triumphing over sin you're going to hell" approach shuts down honesty. We all have a ton of sin, truth be told: much of it seen by others more keenly than ourselves. Perhaps we don't love as we ought. Who does? Perhaps we lack patience with those about us. Who doesn't? None of us are anything to write home about.

Perhaps, Don, your purpose was to have us acknowledge that some folk claim to be Christian and yet live and walk in sin, and that's an inconsistency that means they have no hope of heaven. Who here has ever denied that? That's not what the commenters on this thread have done. They've wistfully reflected on the challenge of living the Christian life and lamented how far short we often fall of walking in the light of who we are in Christ. Perhaps I am missing you here, but if all you want is affirmation of what Paul said, you've got that. What you've got in addition is the reality and complexity that is the Christian life, which Paul also reflects in other places (like Romans 7). If the question is, do we make excuses for our sin? Yes, we do, especially the "respectable sins" that we don't even recognize that we have, like not esteeming each other as we should. May the Lord have mercy on us all and guide us ever by His Holy Spirit in the path of rigtheousness for His name's sake.

Peace,
Alan


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## Edward (Mar 15, 2012)

Don Kistler said:


> Alan, I don't think most of the comments have even addressed my question.



I'll go back to your original post, then 




Don Kistler said:


> Jonathan Edwards had a sermon, the doctrine of which was this: Men's addictions to sin are no excuse for their behavior, but rather an aggravation of it.
> 
> His thinking was that before a person could be addicted to something, he had to commit that behavior so many times that he could no longer NOT do it



And point out that Mr. Edwards didn't have access to the benefits of modern medical understanding. Look at what passed for medical care in his day. If you are seeking an understanidng of addiction, there are probably better places to start.


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## Alan D. Strange (Mar 15, 2012)

Don:

I don't intend to pile on here but I am trying to get my head around what you're saying. Are you saying something like "there are many religious professors these days whose sinful lives indicate that they aren't really Christians?" 

Were you wanting the comments to affirm this with stories of putative false professors? And were you wanting, on the other hand, folk to testify to the power of the Holy Spirit in their lives so that whereas they were slaves to sin, they've now been liberated by power of the Spirit? To say, "I was addicted, but, as a believer, I no longer am?"

I guess I continue to want to hear further from you--since you made the OP I think it's reasonable for me to ask these questions--as to what you've wanted to see or hear that you haven't. If you judge most comments unresponsive, what would be a sample comment truly responsive to your OP? 

Peace,
Alan


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## Mark Walter (Mar 15, 2012)

I've been following the conversation here with interest; the only one thing apparent is that the answer to the question of addiction or _besetting sin_ in professed Christians is not easily answered. Seemingly, the presence of a besetting sin is not compatible with the visible fruits of the Spirit; the continual practice of sin is not going to further our spiritual growth. The initial question posed is about as easy to answer as the question of "how much sin is one sin too many?". As someone who treats addiction, I don't think that the biological aspects should be ignored as a condition of attempting to answer the question. I don't think the fact of a particular sinful behavior being a focus of an addiction in any way excuses that sin; however, it should allow some parcel of understanding for individuals who struggle with addiction. Not everyone who comes to the cross comes with the same burdens; it's presumptuous for anyone to think -- including those who treat addiction -- that they have a full understanding of the struggle of addiction if they've never experienced that firsthand. I believe in the imperative of sanctification; however, more than that, I believe in the utter fallibility of humankind and the need for a Saviour who gets it right. There are some who struggle with addiction until the time of their death, and I'm not the least bit prepared or willing to comment on their soul's condition and destination. I don't know the extent of God's grace, but if we can easily exhaust it, we are all doomed. What greatly troubles me, more than if someone struggles with a known sin, are those who attempt to re-define or nullify the biblical definition of sin. I would welcome the fellowship of a professed Christian who makes known their struggles with, say, sexual sin (identifying that behavior as "sin"); I would reject the counsel of even an ordained minister, if they saw no conflict between, say, their homosexual lifetyle and biblical teaching.


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## Mark Walter (Mar 15, 2012)

I forgot to add, since others listed extra-biblical works on sin and assurance, I have found Octavius Winslow's Personal Declension and Revival of Religion in the Soul to be helpful and worth several re-reads.


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## jwright82 (Mar 15, 2012)

Mark Walter said:


> There are some who struggle with addiction until the time of their death, and I'm not the least bit prepared or willing to comment on their soul's condition and destination. I don't know the extent of God's grace, but if we can easily exhaust it, we are all doomed.



I know that I always be an addict that is why I avoid the things that will tempt me to sin. I would rather sacrifice my christian liberty than sin. There is no law against going down magazine racks at Walmart but for me that was a temptation, so because I hate my sin I refrain. I have old friends who hate me now because I ended my friendships with them because they are involved in drugs. The greatest mistake a recovering addict can make is thinking they are cured.


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## Andres (Mar 16, 2012)

Mark Walter said:


> I don't know the extent of God's grace, but if we can easily exhaust it, we are all doomed.



 What a wonderful quote!


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## a mere housewife (Mar 16, 2012)

Dr. Walter, if I could venture one more observation based on what you said: I read an article recently about special needs children, and the beautiful thought was put forward that they are here to teach us all the most precious lessons about the nature of love. I have enough experience with special needs children to understand the aptness of that point. Not to make any excuses for sin, to call it other than it is, or to mitigate our longing to free of it, and our daily struggle to be -- I have thought that perhaps those who come to the family of Christ with 'disabilities' from their past or their physical/chemical make up, who struggle more to walk or speak or act in their growth in grace in ways that seem to come more easily to others, are teaching us all some of the most precious and vital lessons about the nature of grace.



Alan D. Strange said:


> None of us are anything to write home about.





Mark Walter said:


> I don't know the extent of God's grace, but if we can easily exhaust it, we are all doomed.


My husband sent me this by Henry Smith -- 'God's longsuffering has only a short-lived earth in which to display itself.' 

I read these, by Christina Rossetti, this morning; and they seemed to speak somewhat to this discussion, as it has developed (again please forgive my sidetracking mind, if they are related only in my own apprehension of these things: perhaps they will be an even more oddly fitting last contribution on my part, if so.  I have much appreciated and will remember and return to things said here.) 



> O Lord, when Thou didst call me, didst Thou know
> My heart disheartened thro' and thro',
> Still hankering after Egypt full in view
> Where cucumbers and melons grow?
> ...


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## Mark Walter (Mar 17, 2012)

Heidi,

The connection that you made is very close to my heart, as we have a child with special needs. Whether or not one fully subscribes to the medical definition of addiction, most will agree with the observation that those who we view has having an "addiction" continue to engage in the use of a substance (or the practice of a behavior), beyond the point where it has created major life consequences for them -- beyond the point where a reasonable person would have stopped and changed course. There is this _irrational_ quality -- a disordering of priorities -- in addiction, such that the previously law-abiding will engage in criminal behavior, the previously successful will find themselves unemployed and unemployable, the previously healthy will destroy their own health, and previously loving parents will degenerate into a lifestyle that causes them to lose custody of their children -- all to satisfy their inordinate drives. When someone is in that state, talking about good decision making and what is best for them is of no real effect: they will agree that what you are saying is true, fully aware that they will not be able to bring their lives in accord with that common-sense judgment. Everyone is familiar with the addict's usual defenses of _denial_ and _minimization_ ; however, those don't apply in late addiction. There comes a point where the losses are stacked too high, that even the addicted brain knows that those arguments won't be bought. I've never met an addict, in that reduced state, who had positive things to say about their drug or who didn't voice a passing lamentation about opportunities lost and family from who they were estranged -- even though they may not have been able to feel the immensity of those losses. They are often in emotional despondency and will typically reject any offered course of remedy, because they have failed earlier treatments and because they appreciate, more than anyone else can tell them, that they have been made the slave to the object of their addiction.

Now, how does someone like that approach the Gospel? I'll maintain that it is within God's sovereignty and power to heal and redeem them, and sometimes that happens. But what of those who continue to struggle after making aims at the Christian faith? Though we wish it, do any of us set a timeline for our sanctification? Of course, we'd all choose instant sanctification if that were an option. Here the road gets tough, because addicts might find themselves in an instance of sin or they might find themselves in a repetition of sin. Sanctification nonetheless remains an imperative, "For this is the will of God, _even_ your sanctification..." (_1 Thess. 4:3_), and no one should consider re-defining the biblical definition of sin. Add to that the very strong warnings applied in the New Testament to certain categories of sin, including sexual sin (_1 Cor 6:9_). Between actual sin and, more commonly, the sins of the heart, the Christian addict my frequently self-apply those warnings, sense themselves offending the indwelling Spirit, acknowledge themselves as failing the New Testament tests of the Christian profession, and mourn that they are unable to walk in the Spirit and display the fruits of the Spirit. If their application of the warnings (and possible misapplication of the exhortations) outstrips in the least their willingness and ability to access grace, the other side of the coin, it would seem more likely that they would become discouraged to the point of falling away. I'm Calvinist, but not so calvinistic that I would want to say that sad outcome was foreordained.

What follows here is my reasoning. Addicts, especially those new to the faith, don't need edited Bibles which make exceptions for their particular sins. What they do need are brothers and sisters in Christ who are able to support them in their spiritual growth and to help hold them to personal and corporate accountability. Perhaps some of us have had the experience of seeing someone with no observable preexisting vices come to the Faith; we might think, vainly, that their improvement must be easy relative to our case, and that there must be only a small step between their regeneration and their sanctification. How much more might the addict, already very familiar with their own inadequacies and failures, draw unreasonable contrasts between himself and other believers? I believe that our duty to that person consists of suspending prejudice, constant fellowship and constant exhortation; all that, provided that the addict's attitude about sin is correct. Then, to make too much distinction between this person and ourselves as the more _sanctified_ branch of the church brings to mind the prayer of the Pharisee concerning the publican.

You're right, Heidi. If not gross, visible sins, then sins of neglect, sins of the heart, self-boasting, pastoral pride, inadequate regard for fellow church members -- all lusts of the eyes, lusts of the heart and the pride of life. We are all God's "special needs" children. 

That poem is beautiful.


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## Mark Walter (Mar 18, 2012)

A few people mentioned J.C. Ryle's _Assurance_ in this thread, and I had not previously read this work. I finished reading it today, and I believe it to be of the same quality on the subject as Octavius Winslow's _Personal Declension_. It took me a while to find _Assurance_, since I didn't initially realize that it was an excerpt from a larger work, Startling Questions. While reading _Assurance_, I OCR'd the work, edited it, made a few creative ornamentations, and compiled it to ebook format. This came from the 1853 publication of Startling Questions, so the work is in the public domain. Please contact me if you spot typos or misspellings. Here are the links...

J.C. Ryle - Have You Assurance (mobi)

J.C. Ryle - Have You Assurance (epub)

I've actually been converting a few of my favorite books -- the ones I often re-read -- to ebook format. I'm hoping one of the forum admins will provide me with a stickied thread in the appropriate sub-forum, so I can put all the book links in one place (and add new ones).


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## py3ak (Mar 18, 2012)

Mark Walter said:


> I'm Calvinist, but not so calvinistic that I would want to say that sad outcome was foreordained.



I understand this may be purely rhetorical, but how could anyone not wish to say the outcome was foreordained? For the Calvinist there is no comfort apart from the will of God. Of course we acknowledge that reprobation, like election, is executed through indispensable means: and Paul had to content himself in some cases with being a savor of death unto death. I think only a resting in the will of God as the supreme rule of righteousness and the chief reason of all reasons can lead to that. 

But of course the other side of that is that we can have such entire and absolute confidence - because the Father who has given us to Christ is greater than all and no one can pluck us out of his hand.


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## Mark Walter (Mar 18, 2012)

py3ak said:


> Mark Walter said:
> 
> 
> > I'm Calvinist, but not so calvinistic that I would want to say that sad outcome was foreordained.
> ...



My comment was _not_ that God doesn't foreordain, but rather that I do not wish to be the arbiter or determiner of what God has foreordained. In other words, it is my belief that the Church body should continue to do all possible to build up and sustain those failing and flailing members who are caught up in besetting sin.


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## py3ak (Mar 18, 2012)

Thank you for the clarification: of course I would agree that prayer, and all other legitimate means, should continuously be applied to everyone of whom it is not certainly known that they have committed the sin unto death. It was the "not so calvinistic" comment that misled me, as of course it's no part of Calvinism to pretend to know God's mind in what is not revealed, or to make his inscrutable decree the rule of our action.


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## jwright82 (Mar 19, 2012)

Mark Walter said:


> Now, how does someone like that approach the Gospel? I'll maintain that it is within God's sovereignty and power to heal and redeem them, and sometimes that happens. But what of those who continue to struggle after making aims at the Christian faith? Though we wish it, do any of us set a timeline for our sanctification? Of course, we'd all choose instant sanctification if that were an option. Here the road gets tough, because addicts might find themselves in an instance of sin or they might find themselves in a repetition of sin. Sanctification nonetheless remains an imperative, "For this is the will of God, even your sanctification..." (1 Thess. 4:3), and no one should consider re-defining the biblical definition of sin. Add to that the very strong warnings applied in the New Testament to certain categories of sin, including sexual sin (1 Cor 6:9). Between actual sin and, more commonly, the sins of the heart, the Christian addict my frequently self-apply those warnings, sense themselves offending the indwelling Spirit, acknowledge themselves as failing the New Testament tests of the Christian profession, and mourn that they are unable to walk in the Spirit and display the fruits of the Spirit. If their application of the warnings (and possible misapplication of the exhortations) outstrips in the least their willingness and ability to access grace, the other side of the coin, it would seem more likely that they would become discouraged to the point of falling away. I'm Calvinist, but not so calvinistic that I would want to say that sad outcome was foreordained.



In my Celebrate Recovery group we have pointed out that somepeople, rare people, in our experience are immediatly healed of their addiction upon either conversion or being called back into the faith. The vast majority of people struggle daily with their former addictions. Being honest is admiting you are an addict for life and living accordingly. I mean you would be surprised by how indepth the addicts life has to be to avoid sin. To go a few days without be severely tempted by something is a victory above all victories. I hate my sin above all else but I love the cross above everything else.

For me my greatest joy has been in seeing the healing that the Holy Spirit has accomplished from my own addictions. For one I am healed of my past wrongs, I did very very horrible things. Shameful things. But I know this I can't out sin God's grace, it can't happen. Not that I should try. But whenever I feel like I have reached that limit my Lord says "nope, I paid for that one to". It gives you hope to go on to obey His commandments as best as we can. But it is that thorn in your side that gives you perspective on yourself. I mean what I did to my exwife was truly horrible, I never raped her or physically hurt her but emotionally I very much wronged her, but now with my repentence and seeking to gain her forgivness she has gained healing. We agreed that we could never work it out but I am happy to say that she has married a very good and godly man. 

I say all this not to draw too much attention to my self, which makes me uncomfortable, but we are encourged in CR to talk about our addictions to minister to others whenever possible. I feel that my perspective as a recovering addict can shed light on this thread from an addicts perspective. We may fall at times but we are never out of His hand and he uses our trials to shape us and mold us.


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## Mark Walter (Mar 19, 2012)

jwright82 said:


> Mark Walter said:
> 
> 
> > Now, how does someone like that approach the Gospel? I'll maintain that it is within God's sovereignty and power to heal and redeem them, and sometimes that happens. But what of those who continue to struggle after making aims at the Christian faith? Though we wish it, do any of us set a timeline for our sanctification? Of course, we'd all choose instant sanctification if that were an option. Here the road gets tough, because addicts might find themselves in an instance of sin or they might find themselves in a repetition of sin. Sanctification nonetheless remains an imperative, "For this is the will of God, even your sanctification..." (1 Thess. 4:3), and no one should consider re-defining the biblical definition of sin. Add to that the very strong warnings applied in the New Testament to certain categories of sin, including sexual sin (1 Cor 6:9). Between actual sin and, more commonly, the sins of the heart, the Christian addict my frequently self-apply those warnings, sense themselves offending the indwelling Spirit, acknowledge themselves as failing the New Testament tests of the Christian profession, and mourn that they are unable to walk in the Spirit and display the fruits of the Spirit. If their application of the warnings (and possible misapplication of the exhortations) outstrips in the least their willingness and ability to access grace, the other side of the coin, it would seem more likely that they would become discouraged to the point of falling away. I'm Calvinist, but not so calvinistic that I would want to say that sad outcome was foreordained.
> ...



I can't thank you enough for your willingness to talk about your daily struggle, and I believe it underscores the previous discussions about one's attitude toward sin. You've also provided a case-in-point example of someone who doesn't use the term _addiction_ as a justification for lawless behavior, and I think that it's good for some others to hear that. When I read your response, I couldn't help but think of Paul addressing the Church at Corinth, "And such were some of you..." For me to hear that testimony from someone who struggles against their particular sin -- and who, by avoiding all semblance of sin and by the grace of our Lord, is successful today -- brings more personal conviction than I'd like to admit. I ask myself if I made the same the same degree of commitment against sin today. And if I didn't want to admit my conviction, I sure don't want to admit my answer. Thank you!


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## jwright82 (Mar 19, 2012)

Mark Walter said:


> I can't thank you enough for your willingness to talk about your daily struggle, and I believe it underscores the previous discussions about one's attitude toward sin. You've also provided a case-in-point example of someone who doesn't use the term addiction as a justification for lawless behavior, and I think that it's good for some others to hear that. When I read your response, I couldn't help but think of Paul addressing the Church at Corinth, "And such were some of you..." For me to hear that testimony from someone who struggles against their particular sin -- and who, by avoiding all semblance of sin and by the grace of our Lord, is successful today -- brings more personal conviction than I'd like to admit. I ask myself if I made the same the same degree of commitment against sin today. And if I didn't want to admit my conviction, I sure don't want to admit my answer. Thank you!



I appreciate it. I give God all the glory. I am just at a place in my life where I am aware of my spiritual maturing proccess. I am more aware of how sinful I am everyday. I am more aware of how far the Spirit has brought me and how far I have to go. I am aware of the fruits of the Spirit being grown by the Holy Spirit. I am glad that my testemony can be a blessing to others.


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