# Top 10 Ways not to defend the faith



## RamistThomist (Nov 27, 2004)

*Top 10 Ways Not to Defend The Faith*

I got this from the White Horse Inn a while back. I don't agree with some aspects of it, but it is quite funny.

Top Ten Ways not to defend the faith:

10) Tell people the story of the vanishing hitch-hiker. You know, "God sent me from heaven to tell you that he is coming back soon."

9) Wear a t-shirt with a catchy anti-intellectual phrase on it. Like, "God says it, that settles it, I believe it." That reinforces the conviction that Christianity can´t rely on arguments, it has to use force.

8) Present evidence for Joshua´s long day. There is a widely circulated email that NASA has stumbled across computer evidence. In other words, in the whole history of time, NASA was off by 24 hours. John Calvin said, "œMoses was not an astronomer."

7) Crusades, Jihad, Enslavement

6) Explain to people that your favorite celebrity is a Christian, it must have some validity. This reduces Christianity to self-help.

5) Recent evidence for the discovery for Hell in Siberia. Russian scientists were drilling in Siberia and broke to 14 kilometers below the surface. They decided to send a microphone down there and heard the torments of millions of voices. Suddenly, a large bat-like apparition startled the crew. The tabloids went hay-wire. TBN picked it up and ran with it (Here Horton and Co. began to have too much fun with TBN-parody). 

4) show how many bible prophecies came true with the founding of the modern state of Israel. 3) Statistics show that Christians are more successful, happier, and wealthier than everybody else.

2) "œJust preach the gospel" Proclamation of the gospel is not the same as giving an answer to those who ask.

1) "œYou ask me how I know he lives, he lives within my heart."


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## Ianterrell (Nov 27, 2004)

Jake, 

May I ask what you don't agree with?


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## JohnV (Nov 27, 2004)

In today's newpaper there was an article about the design theory making headway in some schools in the US. They are offering what is commonly referred to a the Panda Book. It doesn't go into detail what that book is, but it seems to portray the idea that there must be a design in the evolutionary line or evolution doesn't make sense. For many this seems to be a good compromise, noting that Evolution is only theory, not fact; and that it allows for those so inclined to think of God behind it all. 

On the surface it looks like a very poor compromise. And so it is, because it is still far cry from acknowledging God as the creator. But we will never win the battle if we rely on arguments alone, because we have everything on our side except the utter detestation of the truth on the part of those to whom we present these arguments. They will readily enough swllow such perposterous notions as man descending from apes, but not that God could raise a man from the dead. They are easily convinced that random selection results in a higher species by weeding out the fittest of a former era, and leaving the least fit for a new era, but they find absolutely repugnant the notion that the meek shall inherit the earth. 

I think that once they have swallowed hook line and sinker the necessity of some kind of design and designer, it is easier to establish the requirements of such a designer. In short, they will, without their knowing it, become studyers of God's character. Hopefully this utter detestation of anything that they think resembles "religious talk" can be circumvented, and they can actually be reached by the real gospel. 

I can see that the T-shirt idea would turn some people's stomach. It's more than just a statement of faith; its a challenge. But haters of truth will see it as a retreat into that unassailable fortress of personal "faith." And too often that is just what it is. And that is not what we are called to witness to the world around us. 

This is a hard thing to be telling many Christians in our day, because it is so common that personal beliefs based on Scripture are confused with the tenets of faith that are not ours to begin with, but which should hold a higher place in our hearts. People move too freely from church to church because they like another church or minister better, and too often a pastor makes his own personal views on secondary things the norm for the church he pastors, contrary to any form of doctrinal setting. We can do that because we can hide in our little unassailable castles of personal faith, what is true for us individually. 

Truth is not that way at all. If something is true, it is true for all. No one can dislodge the truth from our hearts with their sophisticated arguments; but on the other hand we know that those arguments cannot be true no matter how sophisticated, because it denies what is plainly known by all men, Christian and non-Christian alike. And that is that God lives, He designed, and He governs. The truth of this does not depend on whether we believe it or not; our sanctification does. 

Number five is utterly ridiculous; that puts us back into a three story universe scenario. 4 is dispensationally trendy, and 3 is inaccurate and misleading; one can prove as much from the poverty of Christians as well. 

Just some thoughts.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 27, 2004)

#5 is my favorite. 
What I don't agree with is that some of these are dependent on the circumstances (don't get me wrong, I don't mean relativism). Some people are (Ex Nihilo knows who I am talking about) vicious covenant-breakers. Some people need to hear, "Bow down, and accept the mystery." Others take time to work with. I have led a few people to Calvinism by sheer patience and "reasoning." Bear in mind that this is a bad transcript from a White Horse Inn program, hearing it out loud puts much of it in contex.


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## AnonymousRex (Feb 3, 2005)

I have no problem with #2. In the real world, apologetics is not particularly useful. One can do only so much.

AnonRex


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## RamistThomist (Feb 3, 2005)

> _Originally posted by AnonymousRex_
> I have no problem with #2. In the real world, apologetics is not particularly useful. One can do only so much.
> 
> AnonRex



In fact, that is part and parcel proof for presuppositionalism: People know something to be true, yet believe the opposite. I think this is called the paradox of self-deception.


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## sastark (Feb 3, 2005)

I don't agree with #2 either - Just preaching the Gospel is very effective. Of course, I would consider apologetics part of "Just preachng the Gospel".


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## RamistThomist (Feb 3, 2005)

Paul can correct me if I am wrong, but this is one of the advantages of presuppositionalism: apologetics, evangelism, and theology while having their distinct qualities, can never be separated.


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## Joseph Ringling (Feb 4, 2005)

Paul or Jacob would Van Til's "Christian Apologetics" be a good place to begin to understand and learn presuppositional apologetics or would you recomend starting with something else?


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## AnonymousRex (Feb 4, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Paul manata_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by AnonymousRex_
> ...



If you use the word "fake" to describe a world where unbelievers are truly convinced of apologetic argumentation, then yes.

AnonRex


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## AnonymousRex (Feb 7, 2005)

> So if there ever was an unbeliever who was convinced by an apologetical argument (remember, God uses means) then he would be in a fake world, not a real one?



If I may use my own language, I will respond by reiterating that those to whom God has not revealed himself will not be convinced by any "argument" that "proves" His existence. Until (or unless) He does, they will understand reality on a purely empirical, naturalistic level and based on that presupposition, ultimately determine all Christian apologetics to be fundamentally illogical. 



> So, if unbelievers can be convinced by the gospel then why not apologetical argumentation, which is just the gospel in different langauge?



Apologetics and the gospel are not the same. The gospel is a message: man is a fallen creature and must be reconciled to God or go to hell. How is man reconciled? Through Christ and His work. The Spirit of God works through the proclamation of this message and unlocks the minds of those whom He has effectually called. Apologetics is a response to objections raised by unbelievers, and that is the extent to which it is useful. It shows how it is that objections to Christianity fail to stand up to any serious logical scrutiny. Whether unbelievers are convinced by our responses or not is another thing altogether, and since their minds are disabled by the noetic effects of sin, it's not possible for them to be convinced. Even if it were, their "faith" would amount to nothing more than mental assent, which we all know is not "salvific".

AnonRex


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## JohnV (Feb 7, 2005)

N.A. (I don't know if I may use your name since you don't give it; I respect your wishes):

Apologetics, I think, goes somewhat further, in that it is also helpful to those who believe, who are faced with these objections from without. They may be unable to answer, or they may even begin to doubt. Most often this latter effect is the desire of the objections, much more so than a try to call Christians to sound sense. 

As well, it is useful in sharpening theology itself, as it comes across seeming contradictions in doctrine, or when the actual working out of a tenet runs at cross purposes with its supposed aim. In other words, when we add wisdom to doctrine it requires a self-examining practice of humble learning. That, more than proving God's existence philosophically, is what apologetics is about. 

It seems to me that what you are objecting to is the cold factual proof of God's existence, without a warm introduction into His presence. And I agree with you on the notion that the practice of apologetics is more for the encouragement of truth than to win arguments. But the witness of the presentation of truth to the unwilling mind is also a testimony against him. And that testimony, rather than the apologetic argument itself, though it is the vehicle by which it is given, may just be what God uses to break the barrier. After all, God wants us to humbly confess before Him, not come in pride. 

Even if its a waste of time, it is still part of the role of the believer to stand firm in faith and in the truth.


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