# List of Calvinist Trouble Verses



## panicbird (Aug 7, 2004)

What are all the verses/passages that Arminians throw up against Calvinism? I would like to get a good, comprehensive list going for us here.

We do not need here to get into any exposition of these verses. I just want the verses.

John 3:16
Ezekiel 18:23
Ezekiel 33:11
2 Peter 3:9
Hebrews 6:4-6
Hebrews 10:29
2 Peter 2:1
Matthew 23:37
1 John 2:2

I am certain that there are more. Bring 'em on!

Lon


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## Ranger (Aug 7, 2004)

The parable of the weeds (Matthew 13)
Galatians 5:4


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## Puritan Sailor (Aug 7, 2004)

What trouble verses? uzzled:


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## panicbird (Aug 7, 2004)

[quote:61b334a266]What trouble verses?[/quote:61b334a266]

[quote:61b334a266]all the verses/passages that Arminians throw up against Calvinism?[/quote:61b334a266]

Trouble verses in the sense that these are the verses that Arminians often "use against us" and which may cause those new to reformed theology to pause. These are the verses that Packer calls "disputed texts." I know that there are answers to these (and perhaps someone should start a thread with the answers), but I just want to compile something of a "master list" of these trouble verses/disputed texts. Maybe the phrase "trouble verse" is problematic (if overly so, I will change it), but I figured everyone would know what I meant.

Here are a few more (from Packer's introduction to Owen's [i:61b334a266]Death of Death[/i:61b334a266]):
John 6:51
2 Corinthians 5:19
John 1:9, 29
John 4:42
1 John 4:14
1 Timothy 2:4-6
Hebrews 2:9
2 Corinthians 5:14-15
1 Corinthians 15:22
Romans 5:18
Romans 14:15
1 Corinthians 8:11

Lon


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## SteelYankee (Aug 7, 2004)

*James White's response*

The website for White's church, Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church, has White's messages on just this topic. The link is:

http://www.prbc.org/Sermons2.htm


Common Attacks Against Reformed Theology 
Part I ... Introduction | SAVE 
Part II ... John 3:16-17 | SAVE 
Part III ... Matt 23:37, 2 Pet 3:9 | SAVE 
Part IV ... 1 Tim 2:4-6 | SAVE 
Part V ... 1 John 2:2 | SAVE 
Part VI ... John 6:35-45 | SAVE 
Part VII ... Rom 8:28-30 | SAVE 
Part VIII ... Rom 8:29-9:13 | SAVE 
Part IX ... Rom 9:14-16 | SAVE 
Part X ... Rom 9:16-21 | SAVE 
Part XI ... Rom 9:18-23 | SAVE 
Part XII ... Rom 9:23-24, Evangelism | SAVE


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## RamistThomist (Sep 19, 2004)

[quote:3de344395f="joshua"]How 'bout some difficult passages for Arminians?

[/quote:3de344395f]

Biblical Revelation; I concur


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## johnny_redeemed (Sep 22, 2004)

[quote:027f27d9f9="joshua"]How 'bout some difficult passages for Arminians?

Genesis-Revelation.[/quote:027f27d9f9]

     

that is really funny.


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## Me Died Blue (Sep 22, 2004)

[quote:996fb2ceca="Ranger"]The parable of the weeds (Matthew 13)[/quote:996fb2ceca]

Actually, I would say that that's much more of a "trouble passage" per se for Reformed Baptists than for Presbyterians. It's along the same lines as the olive tree. But let's not transform this thread into a big discussion on that...it was just my thought regarding that passage as a trouble-passage for Calvinists.


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## Covenant Joel (Sep 22, 2004)

Acts 10:1-8+11:14


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## blhowes (Sep 23, 2004)

Another one is Isaiah 53:6.

Isa 53:6 [b:e867d06e29]All[/b:e867d06e29] we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us [b:e867d06e29]all[/b:e867d06e29]. 

Its hard to explain how we can justify changing the meaning of the word 'all' in this verse from 'all of mankind' the first time to 'all of the elect' the second time. Any thoughts?


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## no1special18 (Nov 8, 2004)

(let me prephis this with: I have not taken any interpretation classes yet, so please correct me on anything that I mess up here).

Right off the bat what is one thing that is seen in this passage?
1.) Christ took the iniquity of people; he did not simply pay for the debt of sin so that any might come. After all its people who have gone astray like sheep. It is "We" who have turned to our own ways.

With that in mind the question can be asked: have all of the elect at one time gone astray? ... of course they have. So far, we have not seen why we justify the 'all' usage the way we do, but we have seen that Jesus died for people not just the penalty of sin. If Jesus died for people as the "we" and the "us" indicates, then it is rediculouse to say that Christ died for every single person, because then every single person would have eternall life. Those whose iniquities, have been laid on Christ, cannot go to hell, or God is unjust. That is one of the biggest problems armenians have, they want to say that Jesus died for everyone, but they are left with a sort of divine "Double Jepordy." So it seems to me that we have to interpret the all as all of the "elect" otherwise everyone is going to heaven. The question for the Armenian is: Does the "all" and "us" mean people, or does it mean simply the debt for sin.

It was actually verses like these that helped convince me of limited atonement. I hope that helped at least a little, and I really hope that someone more intelligent then me can help you more. 

 (I just really dug this face)


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## blhowes (Nov 9, 2004)

James,
Thanks for your response. Just so I don't put words in your mouth, are you saying that both instances of the word 'all' refer to the elect?

If so, it makes sense. I've always just accepted the idea that the first 'all' referred to all of mankind and it was just another way of saying Romans 3:23. Now, I don't think so.

After thinking about what you said, Jesus' teaching comes to mind where he talks about the lost sheep:

Luk 15:4-6 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

Jesus continues by saying:

Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. 

Is Jesus saying here that only the one sinner needed to repent and there was no need of repentance for the others? Obviously not. They just didn't see and admit their need for repentance, like the pharisees and lawyers:

Luk 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

It makes sense to me that Isaiah is speaking as a representative of just the elect in the entire verse, similarly to how a pastor would pray during a worship service and confess the sin of the people in the congregation.


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