# Church Situations - need help



## buggy (Nov 22, 2009)

Friends, remember when I said I used to be from a fundamentalist church? I've got a problem now...

Although I worship at a RB church now, *technically* I remain a member of my previous fund. church. Sooner or later I will have to seriously consider church membership in my new church. However, the tricky issue will be how to carry out the transfer. My fundamentalist pastor will almost definitely NOT approve of a transfer to a non-indy fundy church. 

I won't divulge any identities because I do not want to publicly criticize anyone or mispresent my previous church's beliefs.

I have decided to leave in a quiet way after telling him in an email (many months ago) why. I explained to some of the members that I left for another church. Even told a deacon I'm at a RB church now.

Now, one of the pastor's close friends - is looking for me. Once every few months he'll contact me online and ask about my situation. I have largely evaded contact because I think he is most probably trying to "talk" me back to rejoin the fundamentalist church. (because he usually doesn't bother me when I was back at the IFB)

What should I do? Whenever I am reminded of my fundamentalist past I kinda of feel very nervous/stressful... your help and prayers, please!


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## LeeJUk (Nov 22, 2009)

It's not like the pastor of the fundy church owns you as his property and you need to ask to be transfered. You can join the RB church and just tell the fundamentalist pastor that your not going to be attending his church anymore and you renounce your membership. Whether he accepts it or gets angry or not is really quite irrelevant.

At the end of the day he should be happy your going on to grow at another bible believing church instead of trying to build his own kingdom. If he's not happy then thats up to him, but it shouldn't stop you joining the RB church.

Hope this helps


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## buggy (Nov 22, 2009)

From what I know my previous church holds on Landmarkism (denial of universal, invisible church)... I do not know whether membership renouncement is that easy. 

Mods, is this thread in the wrong place btw? Feel free to move it if it isn't =P


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## Berean (Nov 22, 2009)

buggy said:


> .. I do not know whether membership renouncement is that easy.



Sounds almost cult-like when you describe it like that.


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## Edward (Nov 22, 2009)

It sounds like a transfer of membership isn't going to happen. I'd write the pastor, thank him for the spiritual growth that you experienced under his teaching, advising him that you are now worshipping with a different congregation, resigning your membership, and promising to pray for him. 

Whether they accept your resignation, treat it as a disciplinary matter, or ignore it is something you can't really control. 

As for his friend, I'd thank him for his interest in your spiritual welfare, and cut off further discussion.


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## Oecolampadius (Nov 22, 2009)

I used to belong to a fundamentalist church as well but this was back in my country, the Philippines. When I came here to the US, I took the opportunity to leave fundamentalism behind without causing controversy. My wife and I decided to join an OPC church here in Utah and the elders asked us whether we could acquire from our previous church a formal letter stating that we're members in good standing.

So, I emailed my pastor and he promised to send me the letter through the mail. A month went by and no letter came. I emailed my pastor again and he never replied. We even contacted his wife and she said they're just busy but they promise that they will send it. I explained the situation to the elders of the OPC church and they allowed us to become members through reaffirmation of faith.

The letter never came and my wife and I believe that they never really sent it. My former pastor (fundamentalist) has never tried to contact me again.


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## Scott1 (Nov 22, 2009)

Remember that reformed theology (reflecting Scripture) has a "high view" of the church.

It sounds like your former church is what we might call a 'true' church where the gospel is at least officially held. That means it is part of the church universal, the body of Christ and that their baptism and Lord's Supper would be recognized by your new church.

You owe it to them biblically, to:

1) respectfully request transfer,
2) appeal,
3) have request for transfer made by your receiving church.

You should explain the reasons in any detail they require... you have had a significant change in doctrinal belief (e.g. "doctrines of grace," covenant theology and a binding confession of faith). (You can longer, in good conscience, profess man-determined salvation, separate means of redemption, or want of doctrinal confession).

Explain also that you understand the church you are requesting transfer from is a true church, and therefore is a part of the universal Church of Christ and that is why you are requesting their permission to transfer.

If they refuse, and you have appealed to them, your receiving church ought still first contact the old church with the same request and explanation, recognizing them as brothers in the Lord, a true church of Jesus Christ. (I also realize this does not fit many denominational polities, but biblically, think it ought to).

If still refused (non-response in reasonable time is refusal), then you and your new church are free to receive you as a new member there.

You have gone through the biblical steps (tell privately, appeal to authority, take another, tell the whole church), and trust God for the results.

In addition, any former members who want to keep in touch should be valued- and you should explain and engage. God has given you access to them. Educate them about the doctrines you have come to understand, maybe along the lines, "you may not understand it this way, but I now understand Scripture to teach..."

This process may not fit the independent notions we have about church membership, or even individual denominational polity... but knowing what I know now about how highly valued the Body of Christ is, this is what ought be done, trusting God to use the process for His Honor and His Glory.


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## rrfranks (Nov 22, 2009)

Scott, I could not have said it better myself.


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## buggy (Nov 23, 2009)

Scott1 said:


> Remember that reformed theology (reflecting Scripture) has a "high view" of the church.
> 
> It sounds like your former church is what we might call a 'true' church where the gospel is at least officially held. That means it is part of the church universal, the body of Christ and that their baptism and Lord's Supper would be recognized by your new church.
> 
> You should explain the reasons in any detail they require... you have had a significant change in doctrinal belief (e.g. "doctrines of grace," covenant theology and a binding confession of faith). (You can longer, in good conscience, profess man-determined salvation, separate means of redemption, or want of doctrinal confession)..



That's what I am afraid of and I need to learn a lot. I'm still learning about Reformed theology. I am afraid that some one from my old church leader will attempt to "convert" me back to Fundamentalism and shoot Bible verse after verse. I have to learn... 



> Explain also that you understand the church you are requesting transfer from is a true church, and therefore is a part of the universal Church of Christ and that is why you are requesting their permission to transfer.



They don't believe in the existence of an universal, invisible Church.



> If they refuse, and you have appealed to them, your receiving church ought still first contact the old church with the same request and explanation, recognizing them as brothers in the Lord, a true church of Jesus Christ. (I also realize this does not fit many denominational polities, but biblically, think it ought to).



Strangely my RB pastor knows the people in my old church on an informal basis. But while informal friendship is one thing, transferral is another. 



> If still refused (non-response in reasonable time is refusal), then you and your new church are free to receive you as a new member there.
> 
> You have gone through the biblical steps (tell privately, appeal to authority, take another, tell the whole church), and trust God for the results.



I may have to expect that... but I thank you all for your help...
I will update you all once the situation changes.


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## Scott1 (Nov 23, 2009)

buggy said:


> Scott1 said:
> 
> 
> > Remember that reformed theology (reflecting Scripture) has a "high view" of the church.
> ...



Praying for you right now.


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## A.J. (Nov 23, 2009)

LTL, my experience is not that different. 

I have asked similar questions and raised similar concerns in this thread several months ago: 

http://www.puritanboard.com/f103/how-do-i-explain-reformed-faith-48195/

You might want to read through it too.

ing for you.


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## buggy (Dec 20, 2009)

I revived this thread after hearing PB's recent discussion on Landmark Baptists. 

Looks as though my previous church really believes in the "Trail of Blood" stuff. I guess I'm in deep trouble now... I have heard the previous account of how my friend tried to leave (she was denied resignation from membership, reason I do not know), and got into deep controversy. In the end she was kicked out after failing to resolve her disputes with some church members there, and posting bad stuff about the church leadership online (which I believe is not proper).

Look, I don't want the same thing to happen to me. What if I get excommunicated/kicked out for joining a "not of like-minded faith" church? It is very sorrowful to be shunned by others and be called unregenerate.

Especially when I do not regard them as enemies - although I dis-agree with their doctrinal beliefs, I still want to keep in touch with them, but ONLY when whatever disputes are resolved.


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## Ivan (Dec 20, 2009)

buggy said:


> I revived this thread after hearing PB's recent discussion on Landmark Baptists.
> 
> Looks as though my previous church really believes in the "Trail of Blood" stuff. I guess I'm in deep trouble now... I have heard the previous account of how my friend tried to leave (she was denied resignation from membership, reason I do not know), and got into deep controversy. In the end she was kicked out after failing to resolve her disputes with some church members there, and posting bad stuff about the church leadership online (which I believe is not proper).
> 
> ...



I suppose I'm of a different nature, but I would state my reasons for leaving and if the church didn't recognize my leaving I'd not worry about it. 

You follow Christ not men.


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## Wayne (Dec 20, 2009)

In a situation like this, it is important to work through the pastor and elders of the RB church where you are now attending. In effect, you are seeking shelter under their authority. 

The whole reason for the system of letters of transfer is to confirm that the transferring member is/was in good standing and that there were no disciplinary matters in process at the old church.

By staying in close communication with the pastor and elders in your new church, working through them to secure the letter of transfer from the old church, you will put yourself in the best possible standing should the old church refuse or fail to provide that letter. You might even have your new pastor write to the old pastor, if all else fails.


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## JBaldwin (Dec 20, 2009)

Wayne said:


> In a situation like this, it is important to work through the pastor and elders of the RB church where you are now attending. In effect, you are seeking shelter under their authority.
> 
> The whole reason for the system of letters of transfer is to confirm that the transferring member is/was in good standing and that there were no disciplinary matters in process at the old church.
> 
> By staying in close communication with the pastor and elders in your new church, working through them to secure the letter of transfer from the old church, you will put yourself in the best possible standing should the old church refuse or fail to provide that letter. You might even have your new pastor write to the old pastor, if all else fails.



This has happened to me twice. The first time, I left the church because of doctrinal differences. I made the mistake of not appealing to the leadership of the new church or talking to the leadership of the church I left. I just left. The leadership of the first church chased me down, and accused me of being out God's will. They hounded my family (I was an adult at this point.) and made life difficult for me. 

In the second case, the leadership was in clear violation of the Scriptures and church order on a number of issues. We appealed to them and got no where. Other members who had appealed to the elders had been denied transfers within the denomination. I was fairly certain that if I went for a letter of transfer, I was going to be denied. My husband and I left the church quietly after that. When we began attending a different church, we appealed to the pastor and elders and told them everything. We then left ourselves at their mercy. We let them watch our lives for quite some time before seeking membership. When it was finally time to seek membership, we let the elders and pastor deal with the former church. The pastor told us that if they could not obtain a letter of transfer of membership, they would simply take us on as new members by our testimony. In the end, that worked best for us.


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## Scott1 (Dec 20, 2009)

I think biblically, consistent with the biblical "high view" of the church, you need to:

1) notify your legacy church of your desire to leave for another denomination because of your changed sincerely held doctrinal beliefs
2) cooperate with them as much as within your power to withdraw peacefully, under their system, including an mechanism for appeal, giving any reasons (e.g. doctrine) that they may require, seeking their permission and blessing
3) advise your new church fully of the circumstances
4) submit to the new church's process of receiving new members

It's more than "just leaving because you don't agree" (not saying that is the case here, only illustrating the point). God gives authority to the visible church, but it is not infallible.


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