# Harold Camping



## BC (Apr 24, 2004)

Can this man's one doctrine on 'The End of the Church Age' mean that ALL his other doctrines are false? Or is it possible that there can still be some truth coming out of this man's mouth?

Can one doctrine so taint a man's teaching that no truth can possibly come out of him again? If so, where do we draw the line between a false doctrine that can be tolerated and a false doctrine that cannot be tolerated?


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## Scott Bushey (Apr 24, 2004)

I was reading Camping yesterday actually. I did a google and he came up. He may be off here, but not all of his theology is messed up. 

His Christology and the like are not (from what I've seen) erred.

If you mess up some of the main tenets of the faith, a domino affect typically can occur, i.e. the JW's.


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## BC (Apr 24, 2004)

If you search Camping on google, you're going to come up with a lot of venom thrown at his 'End of Church' doctrine. Apart from his Family Radio website, I haven't seen one site endorsing his views.

The reason I was asking is cos I can't fault him on any other of his teachings. He seems to be very Biblical and grounded in Scripture in his teaching. In fact, more than once, he has inspired me to take up the Bible and read God's word when I was losing my discipline!

You may be right when you talk about the domino effect - after his 1994 prediction, this comes up. I don't know...


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## Scott Bushey (Apr 24, 2004)

What was that Bibin, a prophecy?


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## BC (Apr 24, 2004)

Are you talking about 1994? -

He predicted Christ's return in 1994. 

Really wished he hadn't done that. Until then, he was a perfectly fine teacher. Not only that, since then, he took Family Radio with his theology.

However, he hasn't admitted he's wrong. Now Christ has come in judgment against the local congregations. The Holy Spirit had left all local congregations around 1994! He says he wasn't entirely correct - but he was nearly there!

What comes to my mind is this statement by our Christ:

Matt 24:23 - Then if any one says to you, 'Lo, here is the Christ!' or 'There he is!' do not believe it. 

27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of man.

Doesn't that mean that Christ's coming will be physical and obvious?

Wow, and what a picture of lightning!


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## Scott Bushey (Apr 24, 2004)

Yea,
He's a wacko. I agree Paul. As I previously stated, one item can cause a domino effect. You know what though........with the same scrutiny, one should apply it to (as Gerstner has noted) the Arminian, Dispensational etc.


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## BC (Apr 24, 2004)

[quote:fad274bc3d]
Here is a little project. 

Name the doctrines affected by the view that &quot;the church age is over.&quot;
[/quote:fad274bc3d]

Great that you brought this up Paul - Can we start discussing these? What are the doctrines affected?

Remember that Camping makes a distinction between the corporate 'external' church and the spiritual 'eternal' church. Is there warranty for such a distinction?


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## blhowes (Apr 25, 2004)

If I'm not mistaken, Camping believes that this is the time of God's judgment upon the church, the time of the abomination of desolation, the time when Babylon is fallen, the time of the great apostacy. We are to come out from among them (the physical church). When we see the abomination of desolation (in the church) we who are in Judaea (apostasized church) are to flee to the mountains (refuge in God alone).

The problem is, that he teaches to flee from the physical church, but he doesn't say to try and find another church elsewhere to assemble in. All churches are bad. The Holy Spirit (says he) has been taken away from the churches. Although there may still be some believers who still haven't come out yet, the power of the Holy Spirit has been removed. The Holy Spirit has stopped saving people through the preaching of the word in the churches. 

Think about what that must mean. Pastors and preachers of the word, who are saved by the blood of the lamb and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, somehow lose their teaching authority when they enter the church doors. Apparently the Holy Spirit stays outside the building and, when the word is preached, there is no power in the preaching and nobody gets saved. Since the Holy Spirit is not in the church, believers can't be edified by the preaching of the word.

The scriptures tell us &quot;Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.&quot; His response is that, if they can, they meet in fellowships with &quot;likeminded&quot; believers, or if that's not feasible, they participate on computer forums, or listen to his radio broadcast (I assume). 

Hogwash (In my humble opinion),
Bob


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## Studiob (Apr 25, 2004)

*Family Radio*

RE: Remember that Camping makes a distinction between the corporate 'external' church and the spiritual 'eternal' church. Is there warranty for such a distinction? 

Absolutely!!!! Do you honestly think Christ is married to the corporate church? Are all church attenders Christians? In No way! Read Ephesians chapter 5! The bride of Christ is ONLY the body of believers.

I happen to believe Mr. Camping is right on tract. Before you throw the baby out with the bath water - let me ask a question?

Have you read any of his books concerning the End of the Church age? Three books total as to date..... 

Those who think Family Radio is the only one declaring the church age is over:

www.ebiblefellowship.com

www.goodmessage.com

www.bmius.org

www.alittlemaid.org

www.thetent.ws

www.daysofvengeance.com

... and several more but can't think of the web addresses

By His Faith,
Mark


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## Gregg (Apr 25, 2004)

I first heard and learned the doctrines of the reformed faith on family radio on the Open Forum program hosted by Harold Camping.

Many others can give a similar testimony.


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## blhowes (Apr 25, 2004)

[b:9b5977b452]Gregg wrote:[/b:9b5977b452]
I first heard and learned the doctrines of the reformed faith on family radio on the Open Forum program hosted by Harold Camping. Many others can give a similar testimony.

Amen, Gregg. Harold Camping's radio show was such a blessing to me over the years. Being a non-dispensationalist in a dispensational environment, his radio shows were like a breath of fresh air to me. 

[b:9b5977b452]Mark wrote:[/b:9b5977b452]
Before you throw the baby out with the bath water - let me ask a question? Have you read any of his books concerning the End of the Church age? Three books total as to date.....

First, welcome to the forum.

No, I haven't read any of his books. The first I heard of any books that he wrote is the one where he predicted the date of Jesus' return. In spite of my respect and admiration for the man before this, after this I lost all interest in reading his materials. His credibility was diminished, in my eyes anyway.

I really hope that I'm wrong about what I've written in this thread. Since you're much more familiar with his current ministry and have read all his books, please tell me that I'm wrong about Harold Camping and what he's teaching now. I'm all ears.

Does he encourage Christians to leave the church and try and find one that hasn't apostacized, or does he just tell them to leave?

If they are to leave and seek out people of like faith to fellowship with, is there any organization to the meetings? Do they use the NT guidelines (elders, deacons, etc) or is there some other way he recommends them to organize themselves?

Does the Holy Spirit work in the hearts of men through the word when the gospel is proclaimed in the churches now?

This forum has a good percentage of people who are either pastors, or church elders, or people attending seminary to become one of these or perhaps a missionary. According to Harold Camping, should the pastors and elders just up and leave their churches and should the seminary students stop attending seminary and choose another occupation?

Bob


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## Studiob (Apr 25, 2004)

*Reply*

Re: Woe to the Campingites! He is a heretic! If one holds to his views on the Church one has departed from both of the requirements of posting on this board.

Please define what you define as a &quot;heretic&quot;? I have seen a lot of name-calling and those holding on to their church creeds and confessions but have seen no scripture. Also, there is a distinction between the church age, and the 'end of the church age.' Also, please tell me what happened to the Synagogues after Christ arose? 

Also, I don't have time to answer everyone's questions but I must state the fact from Scripture that God only saves through His Word. Unfortunately, many reformers hold to the misunderstanding that God saves through their preaching. We read in Romans 10:17 &quot;So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.&quot; God only saves by His WORD - the scriptures.....

If I'm a heretic for holding to the truth that the church age is over then do what you have to do to exempt me from posting on this board.

May God be true and everyman a liar.

Mark 13:14, "But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains."

2Thess 2:
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

http://www.ebiblefellowship.com/isthechurchdead/index.html


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## blhowes (Apr 25, 2004)

[b:50c1a8f6d7]Mark wrote:[/b:50c1a8f6d7]
Also, I don't have time to answer everyone's questions...

Bummer. I wish I would have known that before typing the questions. 

Oh well, I've got one more question for you that I'll just throw out for you to answer or whatever.

[b:50c1a8f6d7]Mark wrote:[/b:50c1a8f6d7]
I must state the fact from Scripture that God only saves through His Word. Unfortunately, many reformers hold to the misunderstanding that God saves through their preaching. We read in Romans 10:17 &quot;So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.&quot; God only saves by His WORD - the scriptures.....

I'm not real well read in the reformer's writings, but in the limited amount that I have read I never got this impression. I'd like to avoid those reformers who hold to this position, so can you list the ones you're referring to so I can avoid them?

Thanks,
Bob


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## fredtgreco (Apr 25, 2004)

[quote:5d15616361][i:5d15616361]Originally posted by Studiob[/i:5d15616361]
Re: Woe to the Campingites! He is a heretic! If one holds to his views on the Church one has departed from both of the requirements of posting on this board.

Please define what you define as a &quot;heretic&quot;? I have seen a lot of name-calling and those holding on to their church creeds and confessions but have seen no scripture. Also, there is a distinction between the church age, and the 'end of the church age.' Also, please tell me what happened to the Synagogues after Christ arose? 

Also, I don't have time to answer everyone's questions but I must state the fact from Scripture that God only saves through His Word. Unfortunately, many reformers hold to the misunderstanding that God saves through their preaching. We read in Romans 10:17 &quot;So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.&quot; God only saves by His WORD - the scriptures.....

If I'm a heretic for holding to the truth that the church age is over then do what you have to do to exempt me from posting on this board.

May God be true and everyman a liar.

Mark 13:14, "But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains."

2Thess 2:
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

http://www.ebiblefellowship.com/isthechurchdead/index.html [/quote:5d15616361]

Since you imply that one Scripture is sufficient, here it is:

[quote:5d15616361]&quot;And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.&quot; (Matthew 16:18)[/quote:5d15616361]

Camping makes God a liar so that he can increase his own following. The irony is that while denigrating Christ's body, this minister of Satan spends most of his time on air promoting his own &quot;organization.&quot; Funny how when God decided to chuck the Church, he &quot;just happened&quot; to ordain Family Radio and Mr. Camping to carry out the Kingdom of God on earth.

This is pure unadulterate filth. Mr. Camping needs to repent or he will hear the voice of judgment on that Day. One cannot love Christ and hate His bride.

As for the preaching of the Word, you obviously have not read the Scriptures that say:

Instead of just citing Romans 10:14, you would do much better to quote iot in context, which makes a shambles of your point, by speaking of the Word in the context of preaching:

[quote:5d15616361]
But what does it say? &quot;[b:5d15616361]The word is near you[/b:5d15616361], in your mouth and in your heart&quot; ([b:5d15616361]that is, the word of faith which we preach[/b:5d15616361]): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, &quot;Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.&quot; 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For &quot;whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.&quot; 14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? [b:5d15616361]And how shall they hear without a preacher?[/b:5d15616361] 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: &quot;How beautiful are the feet of those who [b:5d15616361]preach the gospel[/b:5d15616361] of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!&quot; 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, &quot;Lord, who has believed our report?&quot; 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.[/quote:5d15616361]


And notice the normative action of the Church in Acts and elsewhere:

[quote:5d15616361]
Mark 2:2 Immediately many gathered together, so that there was no longer room to receive them, not even near the door. And He [b:5d15616361]preached the word[/b:5d15616361] to them.

Mark 16:20 And they went out and [b:5d15616361]preached[/b:5d15616361] everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the [b:5d15616361]word[/b:5d15616361] through the accompanying signs. Amen.

Acts 8:4 Therefore those who were scattered went everywhere [b:5d15616361]preaching the word[/b:5d15616361].

Acts 8:25 So when they had testified and [b:5d15616361]preached the word[/b:5d15616361] of the Lord, they returned to Jerusalem, preaching the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.

Acts 10:36-37 &quot;The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ -- He is Lord of all -- &quot;that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached:

Acts 11:19 Now those who were scattered after the persecution that arose over Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch, [b:5d15616361]preaching the word[/b:5d15616361] to no one but the Jews only.

Acts 13:5 And when they arrived in Salamis, they [b:5d15616361]preached the word[/b:5d15616361] of God in the synagogues of the Jews. They also had John as their assistant.

Acts 14:25 Now when they had [b:5d15616361]preached the word[/b:5d15616361] in Perga, they went down to Attalia.

Acts 15:35-36 Paul and Barnabas also remained in Antioch, teaching and [b:5d15616361]preaching the word[/b:5d15616361] of the Lord, with many others also. Then after some days Paul said to Barnabas, &quot;Let us now go back and visit our brethren in every city where we have [b:5d15616361]preached the word[/b:5d15616361] of the Lord, and see how they are doing.&quot;

Acts 16:6 Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to [b:5d15616361]preach the word[/b:5d15616361] in Asia.

Acts 17:13 But when the Jews from Thessalonica learned that [b:5d15616361]the word of God was preached[/b:5d15616361] by Paul at Berea, they came there also and stirred up the crowds.

1 Corinthians 15:2 by which also [b:5d15616361]you are saved[/b:5d15616361], if you hold fast that [b:5d15616361]word which I preached[/b:5d15616361] to you -- unless you believed in vain.

2 Timothy 4:2 [b:5d15616361]Preach the word![/b:5d15616361] Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

Titus 1:3 but has in due time [b:5d15616361]manifested His word through preaching[/b:5d15616361], which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior;

Hebrews 4:2 For indeed the [b:5d15616361]gospel was preached[/b:5d15616361] to us as well as to them; but [b:5d15616361]the word[/b:5d15616361] which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.

1 Peter 1:25 But the word of the LORD endures forever.&quot; [b:5d15616361]Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.[/b:5d15616361]
[/quote:5d15616361]

So it is a bit surprising that you can try and say that preaching is not a means God uses to draw His people to Himself. But then, you never wanted to actually look at the Scriptures - you just wanted to throw out your false doctrine.

Your dangerous false doctrine will not be tolerated here.


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## BC (Apr 25, 2004)

Bob, I'll attempt to let you know what Camping teaches:

[quote:ac06d41898]
Does he encourage Christians to leave the church and try and find one that hasn't apostacized, or does he just tell them to leave? 
[/quote:ac06d41898]

Camping just tells them to leave.

[quote:ac06d41898]
If they are to leave and seek out people of like faith to fellowship with, is there any organization to the meetings? Do they use the NT guidelines (elders, deacons, etc) or is there some other way he recommends them to organize themselves? 
[/quote:ac06d41898]

He does not suggest rules on organisation to the meetings. He says that one feature of a church is spiritual oversight by the elders - and that cannot be present in any future organised fellowhip for the 'abomination of desolation' sits in the holy place.

[quote:ac06d41898]
Does the Holy Spirit work in the hearts of men through the word when the gospel is proclaimed in the churches now? 
[/quote:ac06d41898]

He says no but the HS works outside the local congregations.

[quote:ac06d41898]
This forum has a good percentage of people who are either pastors, or church elders, or people attending seminary to become one of these or perhaps a missionary. According to Harold Camping, should the pastors and elders just up and leave their churches and should the seminary students stop attending seminary and choose another occupation? 
[/quote:ac06d41898]

As far as I understand, Camping asks all people in positions of 'spiritual oversight' to step down and fellowship as one. As far as missionaries go, he encourages it as &quot;God is saving outside of the local congregations&quot;.
--

Paul said:

[quote:ac06d41898]

Here is a major refutation : 

Eph 4 says that when the church reaches unity and becomes one then we will &quot;not be carried around by false doctrine.&quot; 

So, the fact that people in the &quot;spiritual church&quot; disagree on doctrine proves that Eph4 has not yet been fulfilled. So, debating whether or not Camping is correct proves that Camping is not correct! 

[/quote:ac06d41898]

Considering the present condition of the churches, do you believe that the corporate churches will ever reach unity in doctrine? 

No matter who claims to be in the 'spiritual church', won't its members always be united in doctrine - Isn't it the church of those saved by God? Isn't its very definition that of perfection? 


[quote:ac06d41898]
Here is another one: Read Revelation 21-22 and see if Camping's view leads to the doctrine that we are in the New heavens and earth and Jesus has returned, and satan is in the lake of fire, and the resurrection has happened, and the judgment......wow! that's alot of doctrines 
[/quote:ac06d41898]

I'm no biblical scholar but aren't these things supposed to take place AFTER the tribulation? How does this contradict Camping's teachings?

---

2 Qs need to be asked -

1) Does Scripture clearly point to an end of the corporate external representation of God's kingdom? If not now, does it speak of an end to come? The passages of 'falling away' come to mind (e.g. 2 Thess 2:3)

2) When it comes to the crunch, if Scriptures point to something your church doesn't, who will be your authority?

Also tell me one more thing, isn't the 'fleeing to Judea' passage that Camping uses speaking of Jerusalem's destruction in 70 A.D.? Is it justifiable to use it again for our time? Can historical events in the Bible be used to explain events in our time? When is it wrong &amp; when is it right to do so?

[Edited on 4-25-2004 by Bibin]


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## blhowes (Apr 25, 2004)

Bibin,
Thanks for your answers to my questions. I had hoped that I was misinformed about his teachings.
Bob


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## Gregg (Apr 25, 2004)

[quote:d6948db3a8][i:d6948db3a8]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:d6948db3a8]


Debating amongst beleivers presupposes that we have not reached the unity of the faith and that we still need pastors and teachers and the church is not done...i.e., &quot;ALL have not been unified.&quot; So, by debating he has lost the debate!

-Paul [/quote:d6948db3a8]

Reply...

Hi Paul. Not taking any sides here, but some people don't come to discussion boards to win debates, but some come to be edified, for prayer/to pray for others, to learn, encourage others/be encouraged by others, fellowship, and many other reasons also.

Gregg



[Edited on 4-26-2004 by Gregg]


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## Bradley Arakelian (Apr 26, 2004)

Thank you to all of you who have contributed to the discussion concerning Harold Camping. On a more personal level, I wish only to point out that at one of our Presbyterian church plants in Tijuana, Baja California, one of the most qualified and promising candidates for ruling elder was lost to us because he converted to Campingism. The theological anthrax preached by this evil man is poisoning the Christian world, and our reformed community is not immune.


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## Scott Bushey (Apr 26, 2004)

StudioB, :readit:
Sorry, but you have broken the board rules and policies and in fact need to repent for lying. Your doctrinal system is in direct conflict w/ the WCF or LBC.

Based upon the obvious, you have lost your rights to exchange.

The Management


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## Len (Apr 26, 2004)

For those interested:

http://www.opc.org/cce/QandA/28.html#2


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## sastark (Apr 26, 2004)

*More Camping Resources from the OPC*

A couple of links dealing with Camping and his heresy:

[b:4b97422dd3]Harold Camping and the Church Today[/b:4b97422dd3]

[b:4b97422dd3]Harold Camping's Kingdom Hall[/b:4b97422dd3]

[b:4b97422dd3]1994: The Year of Christ's Return?[/b:4b97422dd3]


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## BC (Apr 26, 2004)

Camping is on my radio (this is Bahrain we're talking about!).

Even though Camping has departed from orthodox Christianity, I would be lying if I said that God didn't use Family Radio to lift my eyes to the things above rather than the things of this world. It has also been instrumental in teaching me about the supreme authority of the Bible. As I said in an earlier post, Camping has encouraged me to run to my Bible and hold it with so much greater respect when I was getting indisciplined - which reminds me of an earlier Q: Does Scripture point to the destruction of the 'corporate' church by satan just as physical Israel was condemned? Doesn't a 'falling away' have to occur? What sort of 'falling away' is this?


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## sundoulos (Apr 28, 2004)

Mathew 16:18 seems to me to be the final word on the state of the church throughout history. While many may apostasize, the church will always be true to her Savior. Individual congregations (the Bible doesn't speak of &quot;corporate&quot; churches) may fall away (as did all the seven churches of the Apocalyse) and have their candlestick removed, that does not affect in the least the state of the church overall.

Camping's doctrine in this matter denigrates the person of Jesus Christ who is the head of the Church.

Btw, I am now listening to Family Radio and do frequently. As soon as Camping's voice comes on off it goes. And I wouldn't give a farthing to his ministry anymore.


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