# Dance in Worship....



## PuritanCovenanter (Mar 16, 2009)

> (Psa 149:3) Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.
> 
> (Psa 150:4) Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.



Okay,

I recently attended a worship service where we were singing the song Holy, Holy, Holy. During the song there were three moderately dressed women doing a ballet inside a circle of red ribbon. It was suppose to symbolize the unity of fellowship in the blood of Christ. 

The two passages above were used to justify a prescription in dancing during the worship service. This is not an EP debate so please keep the EP debate out of this. But I am not so sure this is a prescription for a worship service as much as something we are allowed to do outside of it as David did before the return of the Ark of the Covenant to the Temple during his time. He danced before the Lord as the ark was on its return home. It was worship but it wasn't in the Temple either.

How might I respond to this in a right manner?


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## KMK (Mar 16, 2009)

Did they have timbrels?


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## PuritanCovenanter (Mar 16, 2009)

They had a drum set, bass guitar, guitar, horns, stringed instruments. They had an orchestra.


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## matt01 (Mar 16, 2009)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> How might I respond to this in a right manner?



Find the nearest exit, and use it...

We attended a full-gospel years back with my in-laws. There was a good deal of dancing and wierd movements. I still regret not leaving during the middle of the show.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Mar 16, 2009)

This is a Church I was a member at 8 years ago. I was a member there for 12 years when I was married. It is a pretty good church for the most part. Theologically it is pretty good. I am not ready to abandon it so fast.


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## PresbyDane (Mar 16, 2009)

Well all I know is that this does not belong in the church service, so you will have to talk to the pastor, and maybe bring 2-3 people with you that mean the same thing you do.
But if that does not help I see no option but to leave.


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## Scott1 (Mar 16, 2009)

Likely you will get some thorough answers here.

The regulative principle governs in reformed theology so we need to be very careful what we do as an ordinance of corporate worship.

In a sense, almost everything we do can be an act of "worship" but that does not mean it is the means God ordains for public worship. Intending some activity as "worship" does not necessarily make it so either- we are not free to imagine what we would about corporate worship, but must follow His Word, and carefully so.

My understanding now is that dancing is not an ordinance of public (corporate) worship and ought not replace the ordinary elements of worship:

1) reading of Scripture
2) preaching the Word
3) prayer
4) partaking of the sacraments
5) church discipline
6) singing spiritual songs
7) receiving tithes and offerings

And occasionally:

6) fasting
7) oaths and vows
8) thanksgiving

I think our Confessions sum the elements of corporate worship pretty much this way and anything outside of that is not really (corporate) worship as prescribed by our God.


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## Augusta (Mar 16, 2009)

According to the RPW, no, it is not, among other things,  commanded and is therefore forbidden.


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## JBaldwin (Mar 16, 2009)

This is becoming more common in worship services, and not just in the pentecostal churches. I was surprised when I went to a homeschool dinner/talent night this past weekend to see two girls dressed in their church dance clothes dancing to "christian" music. What bothered me the most was the way in which they were dressed. 

I don't see dance as one of the things mentioned in NT as being allowed or even implied in corporate worship. It would be interesting to do a study what was meant by dance in the Psalms. I would be inclined to think that this was something done as an entire group as opposed to someone getting up in front and dancing, though I could be wrong about that.


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## caddy (Mar 16, 2009)

Me & the Misses after our Shepparding Meeting!

Video: Dancin' The Boogie - Silvan Zingg (piano), Will & Maéva ? ? ?


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## Prufrock (Mar 16, 2009)

(This is not a rhetorical question). Does "dancing before the LORD" ever occur in the OT apart from unique circumstances? I can think of, obviously, David when the ark was brought into Jerusalem, the women danced after Pharaoh's army was destroyed; are there any others? These don't seem to be "normal parts of worship," but rather jubilant responses to specific events in salvation history. I wouldn't be surprised if the disciples had a little "beat" in their step when Jesus rose from the dead; but it would seem to be a big jump to say it was ever (under any dispensation) normative for worship.


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## A.J. (Mar 16, 2009)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> > (Psa 149:3) Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.
> >
> > (Psa 150:4) Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
> 
> ...



Martin, it seems that the context of Psalm 150 is similar to the context of Psalm 149. These Psalms speak of a _time of war_. Those who use these texts to advocate dance in worship should at least read _through_ Psalm 149. The Word says,



> Psalm 149:5-9 (ESV) Let the godly exult in glory; let them sing for joy on their beds. Let the high praises of God be in their throats and *two-edged swords* in their hands, to *execute vengeance* on the nations and *punishments* on the peoples, to *bind* their kings *with chains* and their nobles *with fetters of iron*, to *execute* on them the *judgment* written! This is honor for all his godly ones. Praise the Lord!



Verse 3 (ESV) indicates dancing, and the use of tambourine and lyre in this time of war. Advocates of dancing are happily inconsistent that they do not bring their swords (knives?), chains and fetters of iron inside the church to bring God's judgment upon the wicked.

-----Added 3/16/2009 at 11:07:43 EST-----

P.S. Btw, my two younger sisters are tambourine dancers in their Pentecostal church.


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## KMK (Mar 17, 2009)

I am not aware of any examples of 'choreographed' dance in the OT or NT. Miriam and David danced upon the emotion of the moment. 

Choreographed body movements have no Biblical warrant in worship. However, I don't see how you can regulate 'moving' during worship altogether.


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## jwithnell (Mar 17, 2009)

I think the key here is that "worship" dance is almost always a performance. There is no way for the congregation to participate other than to watch and think, wow they dance well (or terribly but I won't go there).


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## Contra_Mundum (Mar 17, 2009)

Is worship a "spectator sport"?

How is watching a bunch of "moves", even "chaste" moves, supposed to edify me? Does it come with a "program of instruction" that verbally teaches me what all the "moves" mean?

They're doing it _while_ the rest of us are singing? Are we supposed to sing, or watch, or both? How is this supposed to be integrated in congregational response-dialog? I should think the only way the Army of the Lord (the congregation) can do "dance" is if we're all sort of "marching" in unison...

How is this ballet universal? Can an Eskimo do it? Or understand it? Should we have "Eskimo-dance Appreciation Sunday?" Why, or why not?


OK, I can think of a way that we CAN have dance in the worship service. Since worship is dialogical, and there's no way the whole congregation is going to be dancing as one unit, I guess that leaves the *ordained leaders* as the only ones who are allowed to put on the show. Tutus (ephods) for the elders! What? They didn't teach dance in seminary? What were they thinking?


Why not have a dog-and-pony show in church? Or a sheep-and-goat show? They USED to be a part of worship! Integrally. Just because we don't slaughter them anymore, doesn't mean we should exclude them. I think they have a RIGHT to be in church. Now we just have to figure out how to use them in worship without killing them.


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## KMK (Mar 17, 2009)

How about a trapeze ministry?


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## Beoga (Mar 17, 2009)

A.J. said:


> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> > > (Psa 149:3) Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.
> ...



Not that I am advocating this line of reasoning, but what if someone responds to your line of argument by saying something to the effect of: 
"We are in a Spiritual Battle, so while we do not have physical swords, chains, and fetters of iron, we still wage war with the things described in Ephesians 6. Therefore, we are not being inconsistent with advocating dancing."
I don't know how I would respond, so I ask.


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## A.J. (Mar 17, 2009)

Beoga said:


> Not that I am advocating this line of reasoning, but what if someone responds to your line of argument by saying something to the effect of:
> "We are in a Spiritual Battle, so while we do not have physical swords, chains, and fetters of iron, we still wage war with the things described in Ephesians 6. Therefore, we are not being inconsistent with advocating dancing."
> I don't know how I would respond, so I ask.



I would say that it is true that we are in a spiritual battle. We are to put the whole armor of God as we fight the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places (Eph.6:10ff). But I would also ask, what does *physical* dancing have to do with it? The warfare and the weapons described in Psalm 149 are physical. (There are actual swords, chains and fetters of iron.) So is the dancing. If our warfare today and the weapons we use (e.g. the sword of the Spirit which is the word of God, Eph. 6:17) are spiritual since the Lord's kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36), then does it not necessarily follow that the dancing (if it is still to be practiced in the worship of the NT) should be *spiritual* as well? Is there "spiritual" dancing? There is none. Now I'm not trying to be funny here. But I hope you see the point. That's where the logic of the argument goes. 

If someone were to advocate the line of reasoning in your example, the best response would still be the the RPW. God's covenant people in the OT had circumcstances which were peculiar to their time, and which had passed away when Christ confirmed the New Covenant with his blood. It is because Christ has come that we don't offer physically bloody animal sacrifices anymore as the OT believers did (Heb. 7-10). Dancing is prohibited because it is neither commanded nor exemplified nor can be deduced by good and necessary consequence as part of the worship of the NT church.


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## Knoxienne (Mar 17, 2009)

KMK said:


> How about a trapeze ministry?



I'm sure it's been done.


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## Jimmy the Greek (Mar 17, 2009)

Evangelicalism by-and-large is Non-RPW. The Normative principle can be construed to allow dance. However, John Frame's broadened view of RPW would even allow it within certain bounds.

Therefore the answer is apparently clear to the strict RPWers, but not so to others.


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## Craig (Mar 17, 2009)

I'm not sure how I would respond. I doubt I would make a commotion about it. Part of me says that is something that could be part of a celebration of God's goodness, not necessarily the formal assembly. At the same time, it seems dangerous to respond as Michal did:


> 20 When David returned home to bless his household, Michal daughter of Saul came out to meet him and said, "How the king of Israel has distinguished himself today, disrobing in the sight of the slave girls of his servants as any vulgar fellow would!"
> 
> 21 David said to Michal, "It was before the LORD, who chose me rather than your father or anyone from his house when he appointed me ruler over the LORD's people Israel—I will celebrate before the LORD. 22 I will become even more undignified than this, and I will be humiliated in my own eyes. But by these slave girls you spoke of, I will be held in honor."
> 
> 23 And Michal daughter of Saul had no children to the day of her death.


And David, it should be noted, was not really a Levite...technically shouldn't have been wearing an ephod...also, he looked pretty scandalous doing as much.

***edit***
On second thought, something occurred to me. David was leading the procession. If women are dancing, they are *leading*...which is contrary to God's Word.

If anything, you could make the argument that the men, specifically the leaders, ought to be doing the dancing!

To my mind, this is one of the greatest errors of evangelicalism: the feminization of worship. I wonder if the dancing would be more valiant if done by men? Graceful was probably not a description of David's dance!


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## FenderPriest (Mar 17, 2009)

Personally, I think you should just give in and do a little jig... but that's just me.


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## Herald (Mar 17, 2009)

Once the barn door is opened all sorts of critters get out. That's the easy part. The hard part is trying to get them back in.


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## JBaldwin (Mar 17, 2009)

Knoxienne said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> > How about a trapeze ministry?
> ...



Every time I go visit a friend of mine, she tells me about what they are doing in her church. They've had full blown circus acts in the church "to draw in the lost" (at least that's their excuse). It's the second largest and most well-attended church in the county. Yikes.


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## Scott1 (Mar 17, 2009)

Gomarus said:


> Evangelicalism by-and-large is Non-RPW. The Normative principle can be construed to allow dance. However, John Frame's broadened view of RPW would even allow it within certain bounds.
> 
> Therefore the answer is apparently clear to the strict RPWers, but not so to others.



You're right.

This is a benefit of having a Confession, and being bound together in unity by one.



> Westminster Confession of Faith
> Chapter XXI
> Of Religious Worship, and the Sabbath Day
> 
> ...


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## Jimmy the Greek (Mar 17, 2009)

The real question is, Were their heads covered??


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## Knoxienne (Mar 17, 2009)

JBaldwin said:


> Knoxienne said:
> 
> 
> > KMK said:
> ...



This thread and your circus comment reminds me of a story a preacher told in a RPW sermon about a baby elephant being brought into the sanctuary in one megachurch for the kids to ride. I wonder if it's the church you mentioned? After the show was over, they had to replace the entire carpet.


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## LawrenceU (Mar 17, 2009)

I'm concerned over the fact that there were 'three moderately dressed' women dancing.


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## KMK (Mar 17, 2009)

Gomarus said:


> The real question is, Were their heads covered??



And, whether they were dancing to metered Psalms or not!


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## Sven (Mar 17, 2009)

There are some things I think we need to consider here: 1) dance as a cultural activity, 2) dance as an act of worship, and 3) dance as art.

1. In our culture, we have grown accustomed to thinking of dance as a "worldly" thing to do. This idea probably came from the Puritans and the Anabaptists (we should probably consider the Anabaptist influence more when talking about broader evangelicalism). Dance as a pastime was looked down upon by these two groups. However, if we look beyond our British/European roots, dancing is not considered one of the three deadly sins (along with smoking and drinking). The Jews are probably our most prime example of those who do not consider dancing evil. True, like all things, dancing can be used for evil purposes, but evil purposes do not make a thing bad in itself. We have many examples of dancing in the Old and New Testaments. It was a common practice in the Jewish culture. It is not considered a bad thing. It is, in fact, commended by Scripture. 

2. In Scripture, dance was done for different reasons. It was done when God subdued Israel's enemies, it was done at feasts and different celebrations, it was done for kings, it was done for joy because of God's redemptive acts, and it was done even in front of idols. Scripture shows the good and the bad uses of dancing. Most of the times, however, dancing was done it was in response to God's redemptive acts. Hence we see the Israelites dancing before the drowned Egyptian Army, David dancing before the Ark, the psalms speaking of dancing because of God's great works, and even we see John the Baptist dancing for joy in the womb of his mother when he heard the voice of Mary. The word we usually see translated as "lept" is a reference to dance. The word "euangelion" as Tyndale points out, means "good news that makes one dance and leap for joy." Dance is a spontaneous act of worship. Notice I said spontaneous. I think we need to consider this in worship. Many want to put dance into worship as an art, but dance is a spontaneous act not a planned event. 


3. Many want dance in worship because they want art in worship. But God has specifically designed his worship to be a means of grace to us. In the OT the worship was more visual because the revelation of Christ did was still dim, but now in the NT we have a fuller revelation of Christ; therefore, the many types have been done away with and the worship is centered around Word and Spirit. Art is good thing created by God, but we must keep it out of the worship because art, being from the realm of general revelation, cannot serve as a means of grace. Does that mean no dance? Well, dance, as a visual art, should not be done in worship because God has ordained specific ordinances to be used in worship for our benefit as means of grace. Dance as art is therefore forbidden according to the RPW. Dance, however, as a spontaneous reponse to God's goodness to his people, I am not so willing to say is forbidden because of the many examples we have in Scripture. Obviously prudence needs to be exercised, but we should keep in mind that the Bible does not promote a cerebral Christianity, but a whole man Christianity. Expressing out love and joy to God by the use of our bodies is commended in Scripture not discouraged.

Those are my thoughts on this matter, feel free to slay them at your disposal.


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## Scott1 (Mar 17, 2009)

> *Sven*
> 
> 1. In our culture, we have grown accustomed to thinking of dance as a "worldly" thing to do. This idea probably came from the Puritans and the Anabaptists (we should probably consider the Anabaptist influence more when talking about broader evangelicalism). Dance as a pastime was looked down upon by these two groups. However, if we look beyond our British/European roots, dancing is not considered one of the three deadly sins (along with smoking and drinking). The Jews are probably our most prime example of those who do not consider dancing evil. True, like all things, dancing can be used for evil purposes, but evil purposes do not make a thing bad in itself. We have many examples of dancing in the Old and New Testaments. It was a common practice in the Jewish culture. It is not considered a bad thing. It is, in fact, commended by Scripture.



I agree with your overall assessment that dancing can be done and used for many purposes. In and of itself, it is not proscribed by God speaking through Scripture. While there are instances of it being used to evil ends such as Herodias' daughter dancing for the king and resulting in an impulsive response leading to the death of John the Baptist, one cannot say it is biblically automatically evil.

Indeed, there are some artistically gifted Christians who use this ability deliberately for the glory of God, and particularly among the arts community.

Dancing can be done for entertainment, or to provoke lust and the many sins thereof, or for recreation and exercise or even to tell a story with a biblical theme, or even a combination of these purposes.

While it may provide ways to glorify God through right use of talents and abilities for God's people, and provide wholesome recreation, exercise, and entertainment to others, our confessions, summarizing the doctrine of Scripture tell us it is not an ordinance of corporate worship.


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## Rich Koster (Mar 17, 2009)

I consider dance in a worship setting "eyewash" at best, something to put on a show, something to dazzle "the crowd" and keep 'em coming back. The choreographed stuff with flags or banners  . To boil it down, pleasing to some people's flesh, but not likely to God. However, if something great just happened to an individual or group that gave them a God given blessing, they might dance. An example would be someone crippled up with arthritis for years healed during prayer and they jump up and hop around a bit while giving glory to God.


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## BG (Mar 17, 2009)

Scott1 said:


> Gomarus said:
> 
> 
> > Evangelicalism by-and-large is Non-RPW. The Normative principle can be construed to allow dance. However, John Frame's broadened view of RPW would even allow it within certain bounds.
> ...



Scott do you know any groups like that?


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## Scott1 (Mar 17, 2009)

> know any groups like that?



Not sure if you are asking what groups adhere to the regulative principle of worship.

It is one of the doctrines of reformed theology, from application of the second commandment. The ten commandments being a "rule for life" for the Christian. Presbyterian and reformed denominations would generally hold to this.


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## Johan (Mar 19, 2009)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> > (Psa 149:3) Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.
> >
> > (Psa 150:4) Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
> 
> ...



Interestingly enough, I am at the moment working on it to try to find out what is meant by worship in Scripture. It seems that there is quite some confusion about it. Here are some of my thoughts and quotes from Calvyn. 

Someone in this thread mentioned the use of having a confession. The Heidelberg Cathecism, Q/A 96 reads as follows: 

*Question 96.* What does God require in the second commandment?

*Answer:* That we in no wise represent God by images, (a) nor worship him in any other way than he has commanded in his word. (b)

It says thus that we are not to worship him in any other way than he has commanded in his word. The HC gives 1 Sam 15:22,23 as one of the Scriptural bases for this answer and this in effect says that _ to obey is better than sacrifice_. Verse 23 states very clearly that stubbornness is idolatry! 

The question then is what is the way in which he commanded us to worship him? It seems as if this is where opinions go apart. I prefer to follow Calvin's position on this. 1 Sam 15:22,23 is such a serious warning that we have to make an effort to find from Scripture what is pleasing to God so that we worship him the way he wants it. In Jesus' conversation with the Samaritan women he said to her: _God is Spirit and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth_. God's worship is therefore spiritual. Our worship has to be in accordance with God's nature. On this Calvin writes as follows:

_The worship of God is said to consist in the spirit, because it is nothing else than that inward faith of the heart which produces prayer, and, next, purity of conscience and self-denial, that we may be dedicated to obedience to God as holy sacrifices._

Calvyn also writes

_Let us now see what is meant by the due worship of God. Its chief foundation is to acknowledge him to be, as he is, the only source of all virtue, justice, holiness, wisdom, truth, power, goodness, mercy, life, and salvation; in accordance with this, to ascribe and render to him the glory of all that is good, to seek all things in him alone, and in every want have recourse to him alone. Hence arises prayer, hence praise and thanksgiving, these being attestations to the glory which we attribute to him. This is that genuine sanctification of his name which he requires of us above all things. To this is united adoration, by which we manifest for him the reverence due to his greatness and excellency; and to this ceremonies are subservient, as helps or instruments, in order that, in the performance of divine worship, the body may be exercised at the same time with the soul. Next after these comes self-abasement, when, renouncing the world and the flesh, we are transformed in the renewing of our mind and living no longer to ourselves, submit to be ruled and actuated by him. By this self-abasement we are trained to obedience and devotedness to his will, so that his fear reigns in our hearts, and regulates all the actions of our lives.

That in these things consists the true and sincere worship which alone God approves, and in which alone he delights, is both taught by the Holy Spirit throughout the scriptures, and is also, antecedent to discussion, the obvious dictate of piety. Nor from the beginning was there any other method of worshipping God, the only difference being, that this spiritual truth, which with us is naked and simple, was under the former dispensation wrapped up in figures. And this is the meaning of our Saviour's words, "The hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth" (John 4:23). For by these words he meant not to declare that God was not worshipped by the fathers in this spiritual manner, but only to point out a distinction in the external form: that is, that while they had the Spirit shadowed forth by many figures, we have it in simplicity. But it has always been an acknowledged point, that God, who is a Spirit, must be worshipped in spirit and in truth.

Moreover, the rule which distinguishes between pure and vitiated worship is of universal application, in order that we may not adopt any device which seems fit to ourselves, but look to the injunctions of him who alone is entitled to prescribe. Therefore, if we would have him to approve our worship, this rule, which he everywhere enforces with the utmost strictness, must be carefully observed. For there is a twofold reason why the Lord, in condemning and prohibiting all fictitious worship, requires us to give obedience only to his own voice. First, it tends greatly to establish his authority that we do not follow our own pleasure, but depend entirely on his sovereignty; and, secondly, such is our folly, that when we are left at liberty, all we are able to do is to go astray. And then when once we have turned aside from the right path, there is no end to our wanderings, until we get buried under a multitude of superstitions. Justly, therefore, does the Lord, in order to assert his full right of dominion, strictly enjoin what he wishes us to do, and at once reject all human devices which are at variance with his command. Justly, too, does he, in express terms, define our limits, that we may not, by fabricating perverse modes of worship, provoke his anger against us.

I know how difficult it is to persuade the world that God disapproves of all modes of worship not expressly sanctioned by his word. The opposite persuasion which cleaves to them, being seated, as it were, in their very bones and marrow, is, that whatever they do has in itself a sufficient sanction, provided it exhibits some kind of zeal for the honor of God. But since God not only regards as fruitless, but also plainly abominates, whatever we undertake from zeal to his worship, if at variance with his command, what do we gain by a contrary course? The words of God are clear and distinct, "Obedience is better than sacrifice." "In vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men," (1 Sam. 15:22; Matt. 15:9). Every addition to his word, especially in this matter, is a lie. Mere "will worship" (ethelothreeskeia) is vanity. This is the decision, and when once the judge has decided, it is no longer time to debate. 
_

Finally, I would like to point out that in Revelation we have many examples of heavenly worship. For example: Rev. 4:10, 11; 5:12, 13; 7:11,12; 11:16-18. What is consistent in all these cases is that worship consist of *saying* intelligible words. Repeatedly we read "..[they] *worshiped God, saying* ..." My impression is that modern trends, such as using dance, for example, want to side step this clear example of heavenly worship. If this is the heavenly example, why should we do it different. ?

Comments?


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## BlackCalvinist (Mar 19, 2009)

Contra_Mundum said:


> Is worship a "spectator sport"?



No.



> How is watching a bunch of "moves", even "chaste" moves, supposed to edify me? Does it come with a "program of instruction" that verbally teaches me what all the "moves" mean?



Actually, there are a few tribes over in Africa where this very thing is built-in as a part of the church culture. My now former pastor told me about a few of them and how the ENTIRE CONGREGATION was involved, not just sitting there watching.

So it's possible....and very workable.


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## Hippo (Mar 19, 2009)

I am sure that we all at times have trouble concentrating on worship, it is hard for us but what we should do is to mortify our sin, not find ways to replace worship with temporal pleasure.


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## Puritan Sailor (Mar 19, 2009)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> > (Psa 149:3) Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.
> >
> > (Psa 150:4) Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
> 
> ...



For what it's worth, the translation of the word "dance" there is debated because it's not used much. Some think it refers to some sort of pipe. So I would not ground anything in worship practice upon something so speculative. Unfortunately, all my references are packed up for now. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful.


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