# Frustrations in the Seminarian Classroom



## PhillipJLee (Oct 2, 2013)

Greetings brothers,

I wanted to briefly share a frustration that has been building up for quite some time while exhorting some to return to a sound, faithful understanding and commitment to the supremacy of the Word and the sufficiency of Christ:

Having spent some time at a broad, evangelical seminary in Colorado as well as a seemingly "Reformed" seminary in Georgia, I have come to realize how difficult it is to truly receive a Biblically Reformed education. In light of the growing number of band-wagon Christians claiming themselves to be "Reformed" and yet entirely confused if not utterly negligent of Covenant Theology, my time at both seminaries were stunningly similar: while the latter seminary advocated for a Reformed view of Scripture in its theological classes, virtually all of its practical and pastoral classes were no different than those found at the prior seminary, encouraging a very moralistic view of Scripture. As a result, many students leave each class filled with moralistic principles (peppered with Reformed jargon) that deter from the sufficiency of Christ and the supremacy of the Word in contexts like leadership, preaching, teaching, and counseling. It is, at times, so incredibly unbearable that I have to stop and ask the Lord to both soften my heart and provide patience for the remainder of the class hour, less I burst out before my peers and professors, begging them to come back to the Word of God.

This all goes to compliment one opinion that follows my seminarian experience and personal convictions: Brothers, please, for the love of and for our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, as ministers called to testify to the Gospel of Grace, remain faithful to the Word of God. It is enough because Christ is enough.

I welcome any thoughts, feedback, questions, etc. as this topic (receiving an authentically Reformed education in preparation for ministry) seems like it isn't as thoroughly discussed as it should be.


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## Covenant Joel (Oct 2, 2013)

There are certainly problems in seminaries these days, the ones you mention only being part of it. I wonder if perhaps you could be more specific though regarding what you are talking about. I.e., while I don't doubt difficulties, you make fairly broad and sweeping claims which are difficult to know how to discuss without knowing more precisely what you mean.

E.g., you say the classes were "filled with moralistic principles." Can you explain what you mean by that?


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## Contra_Mundum (Oct 2, 2013)

Phillip,
Find professor you really like, and share your heart with him. Find a man at your school who is willing to be your mentor, and to shepherd you through the tough classes, giving you a fuller perspective on this trial.

Stop worrying so much about the effects on others. Not that you want to be callous, but see that if this is a genuine problem, it is way more than you have the ability to fix at this time. You are not in a position to change things, nor are you in a position (5th commandment issue) to be lecturing them. Your most powerful effect will be to pray, realizing that this would be happening here and elsewhere, regardless of your presence. You have the ability to see a problem, and report it (to God at least); but not the power to change things. This is a humbling lesson for you. It is teaching you the limits of your energies.

You are being called upon to concentrate those energies where they will be most profitable to you (study, personal development) so that in the future, you may by God's grace and his equipage do some others--a few probably, possibly more--eternal good. Seminary, like college, is where you learn how to learn. It is a facility with a Library, which you may well not see again. Don't like your homiletics professor? That's OK; practice your preaching for the Lord's evaluation, not man. Do a little outside reading for your counseling class. Get your MDiv., and see where the Lord puts you. Put earthly ambition to death.

Where you are now seems terribly like the center of the universe. Imagine if the place you were seemed ideal--you might get the impression that the Reformed world was chugging along on the right track, just fine; while the evangelicals you left behind were slacking. Now you know that no place is perfect, and the Reformed world needs prayer, needs improvement in training, needs grace. So pray, learn, grow, and stop worrying. Be at peace.


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## PhillipJLee (Oct 2, 2013)

Covenant Joel said:


> There are certainly problems in seminaries these days, the ones you mention only being part of it. I wonder if perhaps you could be more specific though regarding what you are talking about. I.e., while I don't doubt difficulties, you make fairly broad and sweeping claims which are difficult to know how to discuss without knowing more precisely what you mean.
> 
> E.g., you say the classes were "filled with moralistic principles." Can you explain what you mean by that?



Without going into every fine detail tooth-and-comb, one major example of a moralistic principle shared was the view of OT heroes in the context of leadership. Both seminaries taught that leadership models should come from the successes and failures of those who led throughout the OT; however, in the Reformed seminary's OT classes (and in my own mentor-guided study of the OT), I was told to never regard the text as order solutis but historia solutis and, therefore, to avoid making conclusions about leadership from OT figures, much like a business class would with current CEO's and industry leaders. Rather, it seems that a perspective of leadership ought to stem from what Christ permits and equips. As such, if the professor discussed the leadership failures of Moses and followed them with the redemptive work of Christ for the purpose of edifying the church, then the students would walk away knowing (A) they are not Moses, a Covenant Mediator for God's people and (B) Christ is the only solution to sound leadership.

Thoughts?



Contra_Mundum said:


> Stop worrying so much about the effects on others. Not that you want to be callous, but see that if this is a genuine problem, it is way more than you have the ability to fix at this time. You are not in a position to change things, nor are you in a position (5th commandment issue) to be lecturing them. Your most powerful effect will be to pray, realizing that this would be happening here and elsewhere, regardless of your presence. You have the ability to see a problem, and report it (to God at least); but not the power to change things. This is a humbling lesson for you. It is teaching you the limits of your energies.



I thank you for your two cents and I appreciate your wisdom. I do understand what you mean and I absolutely agree, though, I meant to share more of a frustration than a desire to reform -- I do understand the necessity to humbly submit and do my best to learn from those who are older and wiser; I am simply sharing a frustration that has stemmed from years of learning from and under a more Reformed group of teachers and leaders.



Contra_Mundum said:


> Where you are now seems terribly like the center of the universe. Imagine if the place you were seemed ideal--you might get the impression that the Reformed world was chugging along on the right track, just fine; while the evangelicals you left behind were slacking. Now you know that no place is perfect, and the Reformed world needs prayer, needs improvement in training, needs grace. So pray, learn, grow, and stop worrying. Be at peace.



I think this is a matter of opinion -- some of my mentors consider my current seminary to not be Reformed enough while others consider it too Reformed. I wouldn't be able to say to the prior that their views are overly centralized on themselves because the latter holds to the same logic. In the same way, to suggest that one's view is overly centralized on the self is to logically be guilty of the same thing.

The only objective measure of determination, as I mentioned in my OP, in good conscious, is the Word of God. How does the curriculum stand in regard to the Word? Surely no school is perfect but this doesn't mean we ought not seek perfection (thus the difference between what is nominative and regulative). We pursue the perfection of Christ as the author and perfector of our faith through His Word, which makes it just for some to call others more imperfect in their theology than others, does it not?

I welcome your thoughts and input, brothers.


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Oct 2, 2013)

PhillipJLee said:


> some of my mentors consider my current seminary to not be Reformed enough while others consider it too Reformed


What does "too Reformed" mean to these mentors?


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## Dearly Bought (Oct 2, 2013)

PhillipJLee said:


> Without going into every fine detail tooth-and-comb, one major example of a moralistic principle shared was the view of OT heroes in the context of leadership. Both seminaries taught that leadership models should come from the successes and failures of those who led throughout the OT; however, in the Reformed seminary's OT classes (and in my own mentor-guided study of the OT), I was told to never regard the text as order solutis but historia solutis and, therefore, to avoid making conclusions about leadership from OT figures, much like a business class would with current CEO's and industry leaders. Rather, it seems that a perspective of leadership ought to stem from what Christ permits and equips. As such, if the professor discussed the leadership failures of Moses and followed them with the redemptive work of Christ for the purpose of edifying the church, then the students would walk away knowing (A) they are not Moses, a Covenant Mediator for God's people and (B) Christ is the only solution to sound leadership.
> 
> Thoughts?



I find the following advice troublesome: "avoid making conclusions about leadership from OT figures." In my eyes, the Westminster Standards and Puritan works as a whole are full of conclusions about leadership drawn from OT figures. I dare say that the vast majority of teaching on the role and proper duties of civil magistrates in such writings is drawn from the accounts of Old Testament kings and judges. To my ears, this sounds like an over-zealous biblical theology that is not compatible with the Standards of your church. One may learn from biblical examples without falling into the error of "exemplarism."


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## arapahoepark (Oct 2, 2013)

PhillipJLee said:


> Greetings brothers,
> 
> I wanted to briefly share a frustration that has been building up for quite some time while exhorting some to return to a sound, faithful understanding and commitment to the supremacy of the Word and the sufficiency of Christ:
> 
> ...


Was it Denver Seminary?


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## PhillipJLee (Oct 7, 2013)

Ask Mr. Religion said:


> What does "too Reformed" mean to these mentors?



Indeed, I'm not precisely sure (nor do I think they are either). They hail from a more practical position and have a strong "businistry" mentality, encouraging a more practical look at the role of a pastor versus a more theological look at his role. They are faithful, loving, and disciplined men, just not as emphatic in their theology.



Ask Mr. Religion said:


> I find the following advice troublesome: "avoid making conclusions about leadership from OT figures." In my eyes, the Westminster Standards and Puritan works as a whole are full of conclusions about leadership drawn from OT figures. I dare say that the vast majority of teaching on the role and proper duties of civil magistrates in such writings is drawn from the accounts of Old Testament kings and judges. To my ears, this sounds like an over-zealous biblical theology that is not compatible with the Standards of your church. One may learn from biblical examples without falling into the error of "exemplarism."



Hm, I do see where you are coming from. My concern has been, "What is the line between extracting models of leadership from OT 'Heroes of Faith' and moralizing the OT all-together, arguing that a 'good' leader should do A, B, and C because so-and-so from the OT either did or did not do such things"? While there may indeed be a plethora of lessons we can gain from properly engaging OT figures in such a light, I fear the loss of a Christocentric perspective on the matter entire. Granted, as you've mentioned, my mentors were hard advocates for what may have been an extreme form of Biblical Theology. What do you think?



arap said:


> Was it Denver Seminary?



I see that you hail from Colorado as well! Though I currently live in Georgia, I am a Colorado native. And indeed, it was -- are you considering pursuing an education at the school? If so, I do highly recommend it to virtually anyone and everyone as it has world-renowned faculty members and a pristine campus with an amazing library; though, personally, I had my share of disagreements that I could not, in good conscious, disregard.


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## Covenant Joel (Oct 7, 2013)

PhillipJLee said:


> Without going into every fine detail tooth-and-comb, one major example of a moralistic principle shared was the view of OT heroes in the context of leadership. Both seminaries taught that leadership models should come from the successes and failures of those who led throughout the OT; however, in the Reformed seminary's OT classes (and in my own mentor-guided study of the OT), I was told to never regard the text as order solutis but historia solutis and, therefore, to avoid making conclusions about leadership from OT figures, much like a business class would with current CEO's and industry leaders. Rather, it seems that a perspective of leadership ought to stem from what Christ permits and equips. As such, if the professor discussed the leadership failures of Moses and followed them with the redemptive work of Christ for the purpose of edifying the church, then the students would walk away knowing (A) they are not Moses, a Covenant Mediator for God's people and (B) Christ is the only solution to sound leadership.
> 
> Thoughts?



I do of course believe that there is a danger in making OT stories purely about leadership/xyz principles. Moralism is a danger. All of Scripture is about Christ, and we ought to make that clear in our preaching.

But to go to the other extreme and say we can learn no relational, leadership, et al lessons from OT stories is to swing the pendulum too far. We ought to learn lessons from the life of David that are drawn from the text. We ought also to see that we need that great King, the descendant of David, because we fall into the same sins that David did.


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## arapahoepark (Oct 11, 2013)

PhillipJLee said:


> I see that you hail from Colorado as well! Though I currently live in Georgia, I am a Colorado native. And indeed, it was -- are you considering pursuing an education at the school? If so, I do highly recommend it to virtually anyone and everyone as it has world-renowned faculty members and a pristine campus with an amazing library; though, personally, I had my share of disagreements that I could not, in good conscious, disregard.


I am not interested in pursuing a seminary education at Denver Seminary, I have heard many things from many people and this is just another story that confirms my suspicions. The Carey Library is very good and same with the campus. I used to go there and check out books while attending the community college across the street.


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