# Antichrist Named Time's "Person of the Year"



## Backwoods Presbyterian (Dec 11, 2013)

TIME's Person of the Year 2013 Pope Francis, The People's Pope | TIME.com


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## joejohnston3 (Dec 11, 2013)

Wow, and with Mandela being praised for his life our world is batting 1000%!


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## Cymro (Dec 11, 2013)

Just proves we are not fighting against flesh and blood.
but against principalities and powers!


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Dec 11, 2013)

It is interesting to me how many of the mainline PC(USA) "conservative" Presbyterian ministers that I went to seminary with are falling in love with Pope Francis I. I see his comments and stories about his work posted constantly on my fb page. I expect the liberal PC(USA) folks to post his comments on capitalism et al, but it was fascinating how many of them were reading and quoting his "book" that recently came out.


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## Jack K (Dec 11, 2013)

Keep in mind that Time has as its criteria the person who has most influenced or changed the world... for good or for bad. Both heroes and villians have been selected in years past. Supposedly, the selection is not to be seen as any kind of endorsement or appreciation for a person, just recognition of their influence (from a worldly point of view, of course).

Given some of the surprising things this pope has said and done I could make a case for Time's choice being the right one. A shift in the stance of the Catholic church, on social issues alone, could indeed influence policies and attitudes all over the world.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Dec 11, 2013)

I once was a subscriber to Time (for about 15 years).


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## hammondjones (Dec 11, 2013)

Don't forget the terrible sinner they chose in 2006...


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## Peairtach (Dec 11, 2013)

If it turns out that he's the last Pope, Time will have been correct to identify him as a man of great historical significance.

You never know. The Papacy isn't going to continue until the end of time, anyway.

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## jandrusk (Dec 11, 2013)

What else would you expect from Satan's children?


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## irresistible_grace (Dec 11, 2013)

hammondjones said:


> Don't forget the terrible sinner they chose in 2006...



*"You"* beat me to it...


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## Quatchu (Dec 11, 2013)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> It is interesting to me how many of the mainline PC(USA) "conservative" Presbyterian ministers that I went to seminary with are falling in love with Pope Francis I. I see his comments and stories about his work posted constantly on my fb page. I expect the liberal PC(USA) folks to post his comments on capitalism et al, but it was fascinating how many of them were reading and quoting his "book" that recently came out.



I have said similar things, it concerns me the number of evangelicals and even a few people who consider themselves Reformed who seem to have a giddy school girl infatuation with Francis. From the very beginning I felt the reason the RCC put him in the position was to bring those mainline-ers and evangelical who see Social Justice as the focus of Christianity into Rome. It was brilliant move on there part.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Dec 12, 2013)

Speaking of Mandela (post #2), I was not aware of his life, but this shockingly brought it home: Nelson Mandela: Secular Saint Gone to His Reward! « Don Boys. It this accurate?


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## arapahoepark (Dec 12, 2013)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Speaking of Mandela (post #2), I was not aware of his life, but this shockingly brought it home: Nelson Mandela: Secular Saint Gone to His Reward! « Don Boys. It this accurate?


Yes that is accurate.
He was a communist terrorist who never repudiated his use or any use of violence to accomplish political ends. Amnesty International refused to help because he wasn't a political prisoner and had a fair trial. Many newspapers and nations at the time said "wow! what a lenient sentence! We would have executed him here for that."


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## Peairtach (Dec 12, 2013)

I've never been impressed with Mandela.

He had such power and adulation after he became president that one word from him among the "international community" could have brought his friend Robert Mugabe to heel, but he seems to have done nothing.

I presume the hard-headed Boer politicians, such as de Klerk, must have received some kind of undertakings from him and his main men, that he had turned from violence and wasn't going to unleash mayhem when he was released? 

His release followed hard on the heels of the collapse of Communism's heartland, which made certain things possible which before were unthinkable. So many extreme "right wing" movements like apartheid were motivated and/or fuelled by fear of Communism.


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## Free Christian (Jan 9, 2014)

The Pope just has to burp and they show a segment on the TV news here in Australia about it. Worlds sure getting all Pope'y again isn't it!


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## One Little Nail (Jan 9, 2014)

Unfortunately uphere in Sydney,Australia we have the same bias in our news & tv as well,maybe the Jesuits have taken control of all the media for his hellishness, our politics is controlled up here as we'll, dang we never should have brought in all those Irish Catholic Convicts


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## davdavis (Jan 9, 2014)

Not really surprising, the late C. Gregg Singer said that a Church which abandons it's creed will always substitute it with a hierarchy.


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## Stephen L Smith (Jan 9, 2014)

One Little Nail said:


> dang we never should have brought in all those Irish Catholic Convicts



Would you like a kiwi perspective? In Australia it is almost impossible to distinguish convicts from non-convicts isn't it?


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## Matthew1344 (Jan 9, 2014)

Do you all really think it is going to be the last Pope?


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## One Little Nail (Jan 11, 2014)

Stephen L Smith said:


> One Little Nail said:
> 
> 
> > dang we never should have brought in all those Irish Catholic Convicts
> ...



particularly now when we have a lot of kiwis here who sponge off our welfare & medicare, on a brighter note have you ever noticed how the pirate accent sounds a lot like an Irishman with a sore throat ahhhhh !

Stephen I'm gonna have to send you a friends request just so I can keep your disparaging remarks about Australia & Australians under observation, keep up the good work


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## earl40 (Jan 11, 2014)

Matthew1344 said:


> Do you all really think it is going to be the last Pope?



I personally do not think Francis is the last pope (he is pretty old). I also think a pope will be in office when Jesus comes again with His saints. I am not sure what Richard meant by saying "The Papacy isn't going to continue until the end of time, anyway". Richard?


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## Peairtach (Jan 11, 2014)

earl40 said:


> Matthew1344 said:
> 
> 
> > Do you all really think it is going to be the last Pope?
> ...



Oh, it's just my postmil fantasies coming out 

You could do worse than read Patrick Fairbairn's "Interpretation of Prophecy" and David Brown's "Christ's Second Coming Will it be Premillennial?" on this topic.

I don't know if this is the last pope, but if he engages in serious reform, he always might precipitate the unravelling of the system. Remember Gorbachev.

If you're saying that the Roman Church will be here until the end of time, you're agreeing with its doctrine that the Roman Church is "indefectible".

See Q.191 of the Larger Catechism on this subject. We don't pray for things with no possible prospect of success, as these would be outwith God's will.

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## earl40 (Jan 11, 2014)

Peairtach said:


> If you're saying that the Roman Church will be here until the end of time, you're agreeing with its doctrine that the Roman Church is "indefectible".
> 
> See Q.191 of the Larger Catechism on this subject. We don't pray for things with no possible prospect of success, as these would be outwith God's will.



Of course I will pray for evil to cease and I know that when Jesus comes it will be vanquished along with the evil empire of Rome.  That is my amil realization coming through.


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## Peairtach (Jan 11, 2014)

earl40 said:


> Peairtach said:
> 
> 
> > If you're saying that the Roman Church will be here until the end of time, you're agreeing with its doctrine that the Roman Church is "indefectible".
> ...



If you're amil you have to agree with the Pope that the Roman Church is indefectible? That's a new one on me  They should emphasise it more in books on amil eschatology, and they could receive the imprimatur of Pope Francis  I suppose it ties in with the amil view that eschatology is so realised that nothing of any great significance or improvement is going to happen between now and the end of time. 

I believe in realised eschatology too, but not static eschatology. The true Church has made great progress under Christ since eschatology was realised in the first century.

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## earl40 (Jan 11, 2014)

Peairtach said:


> If you're amil you have to agree with the Pope that the Roman Church is indefectible? That's a new one on me  They should emphasise it more in books on amil eschatology, and they could receive the imprimatur of Pope Francis  I suppose it ties in with the amil view that eschatology is so realised that nothing of any great significance or improvement is going to happen between now and the end of time.
> 
> I believe in realised eschatology too, but not static eschatology. The true Church has made great progress under Christ since eschatology was realised in the first century.
> 
> Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2



For starters I do not recognize the RC church as a real or true church. So if they are around (I think they will be) the real church will be here, like the ones we attend, and their claims hold nothing over me so far as being around at the end of time since they are not a real church. I currently am a pessimistic amil that believes it will only get worse till Jesus comes.


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## Stephen L Smith (Jan 11, 2014)

One Little Nail said:


> particularly now when we have a lot of kiwis here who sponge off our welfare & medicare


I understand the Australian Government has put a stop to that



One Little Nail said:


> Stephen I'm gonna have to send you a friends request just so I can keep your disparaging remarks about Australia & Australians under observation


I apologise. I am of IRISH stock as well as from NZ's leading Irish region, so a little strange 

On a positive note I am reading the Australian theologian Graeme Goldsworthy. Excellent stuff. He has switched from the NIV to the ESV so it is proof he is a great Australian


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## One Little Nail (Jan 11, 2014)

Stephen L Smith said:


> I apologise. I am of IRISH stock as well as from NZ's leading Irish region, so a little strange



no need to apologise, are you orange or green  , what do you sound like with a sore throat ?


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## Peairtach (Jan 11, 2014)

earl40 said:


> Peairtach said:
> 
> 
> > If you're amil you have to agree with the Pope that the Roman Church is indefectible? That's a new one on me  They should emphasise it more in books on amil eschatology, and they could receive the imprimatur of Pope Francis  I suppose it ties in with the amil view that eschatology is so realised that nothing of any great significance or improvement is going to happen between now and the end of time.
> ...



I'm interested to know why you think the Roman Church will last until the end of the world? Is that just a hunch because it has lasted so long, or because of something in Scripture?

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## One Little Nail (Jan 11, 2014)

earl40 said:


> Peairtach said:
> 
> 
> > If you're amil you have to agree with the Pope that the Roman Church is indefectible? That's a new one on me  They should emphasise it more in books on amil eschatology, and they could receive the imprimatur of Pope Francis  I suppose it ties in with the amil view that eschatology is so realised that nothing of any great significance or improvement is going to happen between now and the end of time.
> ...



This conversation you 2 have had is quite interesting, as I was previously a Historicist Post-Mill myself who has moved to an
Amill position so I can see where your both coming from.

I don't believe that the RC "church" is a church any longer having thought on that matter pre Trent it was the Catholic Church Apostate & post Trent having denied The Gospel & condemned it, it became the Catholic Church Reprobate, this would have implication with accepting their "baptism" pre Trent yes,post Trent not, just to veer off subject!

the problem I found was that in Rev 20 the word thousand is mentioned 6 times which tends to make you want lean to a
Post-Mill Interpretation & take it more literally though Revelation is a Symbolic Prophetic book so if you hold to it being 
a symbolic thousand, despite the 6 references you will take the A-Mill position.

I believe the crux of the matter lies with the interpretation of 2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

does the Coming of The Lord here refer to a general Old Testament like coming in judgment, like Matt 24 which was fulfilled in the Destruction of Jerusalem AD 70 or does it refer to the actual Second Coming of Our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ,our blessed Hope, if it is the former you will tend to a Post-Mill Interpretation if the latter you will be decisively A-Mill.


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## Romans922 (Jan 12, 2014)

Why would anyone be surprised by this, take a look at the list since the beginning: Time Person of the Year - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I mean Hilter is in there, Stalin and others


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## earl40 (Jan 12, 2014)

Peairtach said:


> I'm interested to know why you think the Roman Church will last until the end of the world? Is that just a hunch because it has lasted so long, or because of something in Scripture?
> 
> Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2



Well if one believes the RC "church" is the antichrist here is the depiction if the end of the line ......."7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the [c]seashore. 9 And they came up on the [d]broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the [e]saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and [f]brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."


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## earl40 (Jan 12, 2014)

One Little Nail said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> > Peairtach said:
> ...



13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep [k]in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [l]and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a [m]shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.


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## earl40 (Jan 12, 2014)

One Little Nail said:


> I don't believe that the RC "church" is a church any longer having thought on that matter pre Trent it was the Catholic Church Apostate & post Trent having denied The Gospel & condemned it, it became the Catholic Church Reprobate, this would have implication with accepting their "baptism" pre Trent yes,post Trent not, just to veer off subject!


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## Peairtach (Jan 12, 2014)

earl40 said:


> Peairtach said:
> 
> 
> > I'm interested to know why you think the Roman Church will last until the end of the world? Is that just a hunch because it has lasted so long, or because of something in Scripture?
> ...



Revelation 20 is a somewhat difficult passage to be too dogmatic on, without going into detail on many other passages. Nevertheless, even just taking this without referring to other books of the Bible, I would tentatively hold that the "Beast from the Earth" (False Prophet) represents antichrists - false Christian teachers and false Christian teaching, including the Papacy as the Antichrist.

Notice then that the Beast (from the Sea) and the False Prophet have long before been already judged, when the Devil joins them after leading the world in general rebellion during the "little season". 

So this passage would be no bar to the teaching, and indeed could be held to teach, the end of the Papacy long before the end of the age.

I'll get back on II Thessalonians 2:8 later, DV.

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## Stephen L Smith (Jan 12, 2014)

One Little Nail said:


> are you orange or green



My favourite colour is blue. The majority of my blood and my surname come from Scotland. St Andrews flag is blue so I will stick with that colour 
I go to a Dutch Reformed church and love to tell my Dutch friends that Scotland, not the Netherlands is the land of the covenant


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## Stephen L Smith (Jan 12, 2014)

Here is an African Reformed Baptist pastors take on Mandela:
A Letter from Kabwata: Nelson “Madiba” Mandela

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Free Christian (Jan 12, 2014)

Hi Stephen. My mother told me a while ago that her uncle many years ago was a Presbyterian minister in NZ. My family both sides were early Aussie settlers, both parents and grandparents born here. My fathers side came from Scotland and my mothers from the Isle of White.
Interesting letter/article that one. I suppose what matters ultimately in the end is if one is saved or not.


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## Peairtach (Jan 13, 2014)

*Robert*


> I believe the crux of the matter lies with the interpretation of 2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
> 
> does the Coming of The Lord here refer to a general Old Testament like coming in judgment, like Matt 24 which was fulfilled in the Destruction of Jerusalem AD 70 or does it refer to the actual Second Coming of Our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ,our blessed Hope, if it is the former you will tend to a Post-Mill Interpretation if the latter you will be decisively A-Mill.



David Brown of Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Critical and Explanatory Commentary fame, deals with II Thessalonians 2:8, in his book, "Christ's Second Coming: Will it be Premillennial?" 

https://archive.org/details/christssecondco01browgoog

He deals with it in Part Three of his book, as the first in a series of objections to his postmillennial scheme, and this one he considers to be the most cogent. He devotes nine pages to the text, and those who are interested can read what he has to say.

His basic conclusion is that although the verse taken in isolation _could_ refer to Christ's personal appearance at the end of time (or at the beginning of the pre-Millennium of Brown's particular concern), there is nothing which requires it to be so understood, and looking at in connection with other passages of Scripture points to a figurative reading of the verse.

"I do not say it _cannot_ be [referring to Christ's Second Advent at the end of the age]. All I say is, I see nothing which imperatively _requires_ us so to understand it."


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## Stephen L Smith (Jan 14, 2014)

Free Christian said:


> My mother told me a while ago that her uncle many years ago was a Presbyterian minister in NZ.



Hi. Do you know what church?


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## One Little Nail (Jan 14, 2014)

Peairtach said:


> *Robert*
> 
> 
> > I believe the crux of the matter lies with the interpretation of 2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
> ...



Richard it is a verse that can be taken at least 2 ways if you take, the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth as meaning the preaching of the Gospel, then shall destroy with the brightness of his coming could mean the Literal 2nd Coming of The Lord Jesus, which would mean it would be an A-Mill interpretation or his coming could be a distinct judgment event, like an Old Testament coming or a Matt 24 coming which occurred in AD70 if that is the correct interpretation then it favours a Post-Mill Advent, both are accepted Reformed views the latter more a Second Reformation position,
like I said I used to be Post but went A-Mill, doctrinally I leaned Post but say that The Holy Spirit Led me to a A-Mill position


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