# Westboro Baptist Church



## Stephen L Smith

How would you describe the Westboro Baptist church?


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## CJW

A sect with cultic overtones.


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## rookie

More cult than anything else...


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## Zach

Stephen L Smith said:


> How would you describe the Westboro Baptist church?



Mean and nasty.


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## Marcus417

A bunch con artists lawyers who realized that they could make a lot of money by angering people enough that they would do physical violence against them so then the WBC could sue and make money off the guy or girl they infuriated.

I am usually against judging the heart of people, but I will say this with utmost conviction, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO WAY THEY ARE ELECT, THEY WILL ROAST IN THE ETERNAL FIRES OF HELL, AND IT COULDN'T HAPPEN TO A NICER GROUP OF PEOPLE.

When I was a freshman in college over my spring break, I went home to OKC, OK and went and witnessed them picket my High School because a few students at the HS had formed a gay-straight alliance. Now I believe that the act of homosexuality is a sin based on scripture, but it was infuriating to see the pain these people caused confused high school kids in the name of my lord and savior Jesus Christ.

However, during the picket I saw a group of evangelical Christians come out to show that these people do represent Christ or HIS Chrurch.

"All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

I still tear up thinking about this.

In Christ Alone,
Marcus


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## earl40

Zach said:


> Stephen L Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> How would you describe the Westboro Baptist church?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mean and nasty.
Click to expand...


And protected in our constatution..Oy vey.


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## JML

I used to live 2 blocks away from Westboro when I lived in Topeka. I would pass their protestors every day on my way to work. They travelled to protest as well but had protestors out every day in Topeka. I have never met any of them but was told that the "pastor" believed in Reformed doctrines. If this is the case, it is mere intellectual assent. I would say the same thing about their belief in the gospel. The true gospel with a regenerated heart doesn't cause that type of behavior. There is much more to them than than what they broadcast (not in a good way).

Cult.


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## Marcus417

John Lanier said:


> I used to live 2 blocks away from Westboro when I lived in Topeka. I would pass their protestors every day on my way to work. They travelled to protest as well but had protestors out every day in Topeka. I have never met any of them but was told that the "pastor" believed in Reformed doctrines. If this is the case, it is mere intellectual assent. I would say the same thing about their belief in the gospel. The true gospel with a regenerated heart doesn't cause that type of behavior. There is much more to them than than what they broadcast (not in a good way).
> 
> Cult.



I have done a lot of research on the "Calvinism of the WBC" and in all their interviews it seems that they believe that the Gospel is not Good News but Bad News for the sinner, they never answer the question how one is saved, and if America truly wants to turn from God they must rid themselves of all homosexuals. It seems that the only way to truly repent is to have mass genocide of the gays. I definitely don't see the doctrines of grace in their theology.


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## AThornquist

Cult. Plus their dance routines to gay-hating remakes of modern pop songs is really weird.


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## kappazei

They're a disgrace. Allies with the devil himself.


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## earl40

Marcus417 said:


> I have done a lot of research on the "Calvinism of the WBC" and in all their interviews it seems that they believe that the Gospel is not Good News but Bad News for the sinner, they never answer the question how one is saved, and if America truly wants to turn from God they must rid themselves of all homosexuals. It seems that the only way to truly repent is to have mass genocide of the gays. I definitely don't see the doctrines of grace in their theology.



The Gospel is not good news to the unelect. The problem is that we do not know who is elect. WBC must have not read the part in the bible on really bad sin about how "as WERE some of you".


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## Phil D.

Marcus417 said:


> THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO WAY THEY ARE ELECT



I think it would be better to say there is no way they are regenerate. Repentance and faith is always possible (at least from our human perspective), even for the chiefest of sinners.

I have heard that in recent years two of the Phelps daughters, who once participated in the vile behavior orchestrated by their father, have confessed the error of their ways and left the Westboro church. Perhaps the Holy Spirit is beginning His regenerating work in their lives. I truly hope and pray that is the case.


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## PointyHaired Calvinist

WBC doesn't believe in evangelism, If I recall correctly. They believe everyone else outside of them is damned already and they are the only elect. Their only purpose to preach is cursing the darkness rather than bringing light to a world that God has turned His back on. Kind of a mix between extreme hyper-Calvinism and apocalyptic dispensationalism on that front.

This is assuming they're not a plant by the left to discredit Christianity and Christian morality. I don't think they are but it wouldn't shock me.


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## Edward

PointyHaired Calvinist said:


> This is assuming they're not a plant by the left



Don't want to drag this into politics, but Fred Phelps had ties to the Al Gore campaign, as I recall.


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## py3ak

Marcus417 said:


> I am usually against judging the heart of people, but I will say this with utmost conviction, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO WAY THEY ARE ELECT, THEY WILL ROAST IN THE ETERNAL FIRES OF HELL, AND IT COULDN'T HAPPEN TO A NICER GROUP OF PEOPLE.



Marcus, serious question. Isn't this exactly how WBC feels about the military, homosexuals, etc.? It is a frequent irony that the lack of charity in others is the thing that causes us to stumble into a lack of charity. At any rate, it is something to be on guard against. The WBC is certainly not doing the cause of Christ any favors, but we can still hope and pray that they will hear the gospel. As Gerson says, _It is emphatically expressed in the Lord's prayer -- Let thy kingdom come, i.e., let it come to us, because we are not able by any inward power of our own to go to it._


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## Caroline

I would say 'cult' and therefore much to be pitied. They do terrible, hateful things, but my educated guess is that they are a mix of truly evil people with ordinary people who are just all mixed up. Cults are all muddled and twisted on the inside, and it is a terrible fact of life that people who are very average, otherwise sweet people can do horrible things when they are faced with certain kinds of pressure--like being told (and convinced from birth, if they were raised in that church) that this is what God requires of them. Cults gather in two kinds of people: (1) evil manipulators who realize they can profit from the situation and (2) really genuine but not very bright people who want to follow God but don't know much about Him. I don't think I would categorically say that all WBC is going to hell. But no doubt all of them are by this time only the zombie-like remains of what once might have been people.

PS. It always seems to me the best prayer for cult members is to pray that God will raise the dead. They are the deadest bunch one is ever likely to meet among those who are still breathing. It is an unfathomable horror.


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## Stephen L Smith

To the best of my knowledge Westboro Baptist Church have an evangelical statement of faith. Their heroes are actually Spurgeon and John Gill and other Puritans? Also they do publicly say that if one repents God will be gracious and save. So broadly speaking you could argue they have the true marks of the church per Calvin's Institutes 4:1:9-13. However, if one is not prepared to go that far, would it be more appropriate to call them a sect than a cult?


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## Curt

I had occasion to write to the Westboro Baptist "Church" a few years back. Among the things I deplored them to consider was that they "Read God’s Word as a tonic, not a toxin." Their _lovely_ response included the following:



Not only did you serve in the ***-infested, God hating military, you BRAG about it. You've propped up the military and the flag as your idol and have far more reverence for them than you do the Lord your God.

Your quarrel isn't with us, it's with God. God does not know you, and you're headed straight for Hell.

By the way, you can take your title "Reverend" and shove it where the sun doesn't shine. Was that supposed to be an insult? All you've done is proven your total ignorance of the scriptures. The word reverend is used one time, in reference to God, not man.

Thanks for writing. You're going to Hell, have a nice day!

The letter was signed in this manner:


Katherine Hockenbarger
An humble Tachmonite, and thankful member of Westboro Baptist Church​


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## py3ak

If the report from the (now sadly atheist) son of Fred Phelps is true, they qualify as a cult because of the abusive dominance that Fred Phelps exerts.


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## Mushroom

py3ak said:


> If the report from the (now sadly atheist) son of Fred Phelps is true, they qualify as a cult because of the abusive dominance that Fred Phelps exerts.


From the frying pan into the proverbial fire...


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## Rich Koster

Westboro appears to be hatemongers masquerading as a church. A tree is known by it's fruit, not a piece of paper saying it is a tree.


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## Edward

Rich Koster said:


> Westboro appears to be hatemongers masquerading as a church.



I disagree. It's more along the line of a plaintiff's attorney looking for jackpots.


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## Gforce9

Curt said:


> I had occasion to write to the Westboro Baptist "Church" a few years back. Among the things I deplored them to consider was that they "Read God’s Word as a tonic, not a toxin." Their _lovely_ response included the following:
> 
> 
> 
> Not only did you serve in the ***-infested, God hating military, you BRAG about it. You've propped up the military and the flag as your idol and have far more reverence for them than you do the Lord your God.
> 
> Your quarrel isn't with us, it's with God. God does not know you, and you're headed straight for Hell.
> 
> By the way, you can take your title "Reverend" and shove it where the sun doesn't shine. Was that supposed to be an insult? All you've done is proven your total ignorance of the scriptures. The word reverend is used one time, in reference to God, not man.
> 
> Thanks for writing. You're going to Hell, have a nice day!
> 
> The letter was signed in this manner:
> 
> 
> Katherine Hockenbarger
> An humble Tachmonite, and thankful member of Westboro Baptist Church​




Humility on full display right there. I know that if these folks showed up at a funeral of my loved one(s), someone's probably going to the orthodontist.........


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## SolaScriptura

I don't know. I find it strange that some make pronouncements against Westboro Baptist Church with the same degree of certainty and force as is used by Westboro in their pronouncements against this nation. Even the poll options reflect a degree of certainty with which I m not entirely comfortable. I would have preferred an "I don't know" option.

What makes me uncertain about Westboro are three things. 1) While it is offensive, they nonetheless have a very clear understanding of the relationship of the military to the rest of the American culture. Thus if they want to find something wrong with America, they can "blame" the military for defending that thing with some degree of accuracy. 2) America is a jingoistic culture. Thus directing one's criticism of the culture in general towards the military specifically is a good tactic if one desires to get under the skin of the collective group. But perhaps most significantly 3) I've heard comments from some on this site critical of the US, and the military's role as accomplice, that differ with the sentiments of Westboro Baptist Church only in their choice of rhetoric. So is Westboro evil because of their choice of rhetoric? Or maybe they have a legitimate point but they are unwisely and sinfully articulating it. 

But like I said, I don't know.


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## Stephen L Smith

Curt said:


> I had occasion to write to the Westboro Baptist "Church" a few years back. Among the things I deplored them to consider was that they "Read God’s Word as a tonic, not a toxin." Their lovely response included the following:
> 
> 
> Not only did you serve in the ***-infested, God hating military, you BRAG about it. You've propped up the military and the flag as your idol and have far more reverence for them than you do the Lord your God.
> Your quarrel isn't with us, it's with God. God does not know you, and you're headed straight for Hell.
> By the way, you can take your title "Reverend" and shove it where the sun doesn't shine. Was that supposed to be an insult? All you've done is proven your total ignorance of the scriptures. The word reverend is used one time, in reference to God, not man.
> Thanks for writing. You're going to Hell, have a nice day!
> 
> 
> 
> The letter was signed in this manner:
> 
> 
> Katherine Hockenbarger
> An humble Tachmonite, and thankful member of Westboro Baptist Church



Curt, I believe you posted this on the Reformed Baptist Discussion list a few years ago? It looks similar


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## Rich Koster

Edward said:


> Rich Koster said:
> 
> 
> 
> Westboro appears to be hatemongers masquerading as a church.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree. It's more along the line of a plaintiff's attorney looking for jackpots.
Click to expand...


Most of them are lawyers, I'll give you that. It just seems like they rejoice in announcing condemnation on people. To me, that is totally void of any attribute of love.


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## Curt

Stephen L Smith said:


> Curt, I believe you posted this on the Reformed Baptist Discussion list a few years ago? It looks similar



Probably true.


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## arapahoepark

SolaScriptura said:


> I don't know. I find it strange that some make pronouncements against Westboro Baptist Church with the same degree of certainty and force as is used by Westboro in their pronouncements against this nation. Even the poll options reflect a degree of certainty with which I m not entirely comfortable. I would have preferred an "I don't know" option.
> 
> What makes me uncertain about Westboro are three things. 1) While it is offensive, they nonetheless have a very clear understanding of the relationship of the military to the rest of the American culture. Thus if they want to find something wrong with America, they can "blame" the military for defending that thing with some degree of accuracy. 2) America is a jingoistic culture. Thus directing one's criticism of the culture in general towards the military specifically is a good tactic if one desires to get under the skin of the collective group. But perhaps most significantly 3) I've heard comments from some on this site critical of the US, and the military's role as accomplice, that differ with the sentiments of Westboro Baptist Church only in their choice of rhetoric. So is Westboro evil because of their choice of rhetoric? Or maybe they have a legitimate point but they are unwisely and sinfully articulating it.
> 
> But like I said, I don't know.


Wow! way to convict me Ben! "Great, Now I have guilt" (think of the quote from the original toy story).


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## Caroline

Cults are always a mix of truth and error. That is what makes them so confusing. People like things to be black-and-white, absolutely good or absolutely evil, but that is rarely true of anything. In cults, one can readily assess them as evil if viewing them from outside as a whole, but inside, they are a mass of confusion. It is hard to say exactly where the good leaves off and the bad picks up. The fact that Westboro Baptist Church may have some correct ideas does not mean they are not a cult. All cults have some correct ideas. If they were completely and obviously in error about everything, nobody would join. It is truth twisted and distorted into something evil.

The hateful response given by WBC to Curt is, in my opinion, classic example of cultic writing. They've lost perspective on the outside world. Everything has been reduced to the evil out there and the good in here. There's an Armageddon feel to everything. Cults lose the ability for self-assessment, because they believe themselves to be the only good left in the world. They can't evaluate their own actions because 'righteousness' is whatever the cult is doing and 'unrighteousness' is everything else. Protection and promotion of the cult is the highest good, and anything that furthers that agenda is 'right.' Attacks against outsiders are applauded because they are all evil and deserve it. 

The odd fact is that cults can (and do) accomplish a lot, even good things. They are usually really hard-working people with a strong sense of commitment. In the 1970's, Jim Jones and the People's Temple helped a lot of people, including elderly and disabled. They ran a drug treatment center and picketed for some good causes. They also sent hateful letters threatening death to their enemies and rubbed the letters with poison ivy to make the person who received them develop a painful rash. Eventually, they drank poisoned kool-aid. The few survivors still all say what wonderful people many of those cultists were, how sweet and loving and how they really did want to help other people and build a better America. Nothing about assessing cults is easy. Even really provoking ones like Westboro Baptist Church.

I'd be careful about judging ex-cultists, even those like Fred Phelp's son who turn atheist. Almost all ex-cultists go through an atheist phase, including myself. It's hard to know what to believe when you've committed yourself to something so completely and realized you've been deceived. You lose everything and everyone you ever knew. You are broke because the cult took all your money. You are getting death threats, and your mom won't let your brothers and sisters talk to you anymore. You have no education because the cult didn't let you go to college. You haven't a clue which church to join or whether they are all as corrupt as the cult was (which you thought was a church but now turns out to have been a cult). It doesn't make atheism right, but I've never known an ex- cultist that didn't become one for a while.

Hopefully, the progress is frying pan to the fire to a better and healthier place. But truthfully, the success rate of ex-cultists on the outside is abysmal. Many of them return to the cult eventually. Suicide rates are astronomically high among ex-cultists also.


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## Stephen L Smith

Thank you Caroline. I found this post insightful and helpfully balanced.

i gather from your post that you were in a cult for some time?


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## housta

Listen to this interview with Shirley Phelps-Roper, daughter of the founder, Fred Phelps. This really helps understand the mindset they have.

Fighting for the Faith: Interview with Shirley Phelps-Roper of Westboro Baptist Church


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## Caroline

Stephen L Smith said:


> Thank you Caroline. I found this post insightful and helpfully balanced.
> 
> i gather from your post that you were in a cult for some time?



Yes. Although 'a cult' is simplistic. My extended family is a sort of cult unto itself, but also became involved in two other cults when I was a child--the United Pentecostal Church International, and Hallelujah Prayer Center. I spent more time in the UPCI, but Hallelujah Prayer Center was the most disturbing. The UPCI was anti-Trinitarian, very harsh on women, and tended to be run by thugs (but even that is simplistic--there were some good people). Hallelujah Prayer Center was the stuff nightmares are made of. Way worse than WBC, unless they are into stuff I don't know about, which is entirely possible.


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## kappazei

FYI; Here's a link to a statement issued by Phelps' grand-daughters who left Westboro. https://medium.com/turning-points/83d2ef8ba4f5

cheers


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## Stephen L Smith

housta said:


> Listen to this interview with Shirley Phelps-Roper, daughter of the founder, Fred Phelps. This really helps understand the mindset they have.
> 
> Fighting for the Faith: Interview with Shirley Phelps-Roper of Westboro Baptist Church



I listened to this with interest. The fighting for faith man (Chris) did seek to establish common ground based on scripture (Reformed theology). Much of this went well. Chris then tried to establish the principle that Shirley sinned every day (as all do). Shirley clearly did not understand the precise point Chris was making and went on the attack (as the Westboro folks are inclined to do!). it was a pity Chris did not explain where he was going with this (Consistent with Reformed principles) as this may have guided the discussion better. other relevant points were: [1] challenge Shirley when she judged him (Chris) the scriptural basis otherwise she is making an unscriptural judgment. [2] Challenge the scriptural basis for the hate signs. Paul did not do this Acts 17 etc. Also their theological heroes (Spurgeon, Jonathan Edwards etc) did not do this. Shirley in the past claimed that they were in the Calvinistic mainstream of churches. If so where have mainstream Calvinistic churches used hate signs (they preached the whole counsel of God but were 'wise as doves and cunning as serpents'.

In fairness to Chris the cell phone cut out before he could continue the discussion.


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## Pilgrim

WBC is neither Baptist nor a church


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## Caroline

I would say that designation of something as a cult or not a cult (in the sense in which I understand the word--as a manipulative organization brainwashing its members) has less to do with their claimed beliefs and more to do with their governmental structure and perspective of the outside world. It is entirely possible for an organization to have a benign statement of faith and yet end up drinking poisoned kool-aid. There are several considerations:

1. Does the group actively keep a "normal" statement of faith to mask their real beliefs? I have known many cults that do this. They often tell insiders that outsiders will not "understand" (because they have not been enlightened), and so it is unwise to present the entirety of their beliefs to outsiders.

2. How does the group interpret ordinary Christian phrases? Cults are notorious for giving entirely new meanings to ordinary Christian words. In the UPCI, there is much talk about "modesty." And the true Christian church would support this, right? Who can be against modesty? But then, the UPCI interprets "modesty" in a highly particular manner. A woman is "immodest" if she wears pants. She must wear skirts to be modest. She is immodest if she cuts her hair or even touches scissors to her hair. She is immodest if she wears make-up or jewelry. And then there are aberrant ideas attached to it. It is believed that angels reside in a woman's hair (totally not making this up) and that cutting her hair causes her hair to lose its angelic power. Uncut hair of a "modest woman" is believed to have healing properties and can function as the protection from disease and accidents for her husband and children. (Notice the implication here that if a woman leaves the UPCI and cuts her hair, she is a promiscuous woman who cares nothing about the safety of her family).

So you can see it took a hard left turn somewhere. But in the statement of faith, it will merely say, "We believe that women should be modest."

3. Even if a group has moderately orthodox beliefs (but most cults do eventually develop heretical ideas), I think one could still call it a cult if it was heavily abusive and manipulative and viewed everyone outside the church as evil or at least unenlightened. Even if a church claims to subscribe to the Westminster Confession, I'd still call them a cult if they declared everyone outside their particular church was insufficient in their understanding of the Confession and cut their members off from ordinary communication and fellowship with other Christians.

Isolation is a key factor in cults. They need to keep their people separated from others. They either do that physically (by building compounds in the jungle or something like that), or by declaring communication with others as dangerous and/or worldly. Generally, they will not let their members read anything or watch anything unapproved by the group, and they strongly discourage taking jobs that require a high level of interaction with the public or attending schools that are not affiliated with the group. But the best weapon at isolating their members is actually their manner of communication. You'll notice when you talk to cultists that they constantly struggle to communicate. They often refuse to use certain words. They repeat slogans over and over. They seem to be unable to understand what people say to them. Sometimes, when they are confronted with errors in their beliefs, they break off entirely and begin chanting or speaking in tongues (which they are taught to do to "block attacks of Satan on their minds.")

I think that ordinary Christians make a mistake by focusing exclusively on doctrinal errors of cults. You can't really argue these people out of their ideas. The strongest appeal, in my experience, is actually the way they treat other people. Most cultists are actually very uncomfortable with that on some level, even if they don't admit it. They may do things because they believe that it is what God requires, but it causes tremendous emotional and psychological strain. That is the weak point. And that is why most ex-cultists become ex-cultists. At some point, they said, "I can't keep hurting people like this anymore."

PS By the way, this is slightly off-topic I dearly wish that Reformed churches had more resources for ex-cultists. People are so very, very confused and disoriented when they leave cults, and they have no support network because their support network was the cult. There are treatment centers, but very expensive, which most ex-cultists can't remotely afford (having given all their money to cults). I ended up Reformed because of an email loop that helped me and suggested that I find an Orthodox Presbyterian Church. The email loop no longer exists, and most Reformed ministers, in my experience, have NO experience or training in dealing with ex-cultists. Sure, we can condemn WBC. But when those people do leave that group, where do they go?


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## Jerusalem Blade

I listened to the interview with Shirley Phelps-Roper, and got a glimpse of their mindset, if she is representative of WBC. If the interviewer had simply asked, "Do those who repent receive forgiveness?" she likely would have answered in the affirmative. It seems she is preaching pure law and no gospel; or, in other words, she is not presenting Christ and His sayings, which would include such things as "Come unto me all ye who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matt 11:28), or "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6:37), _*as well as*_ commands to repent and believe and follow Him.

What I seem to be hearing in her is an adamant sort of "hyper-Calvinism" that says the elect, upon hearing the proclamations of coming wrath and judgment on sins, will be "cut to the heart" and repent. She will not preach the "love of God" for sinners as that love is only for the elect. She says there is no offer (as in "well-meant offer" I think) of salvation to all, or invitation to come and be saved, despite, "And let him that is athirst, come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" (Rev 22:17). This last is nuanced, as the preaching will, in the elect, _cause_ a thirst for Christ's saving grace, and of those whosoever will are invited to come, fearing no rejection.

She (and the rest of WBC) seem to have taken upon themselves a prophetic mantle, and see themselves as the only true preachers of God's word. Just on the basis of what I have seen in the media and that interview (and the granddaughter's brief statement), I do not have enough information to render a clear assessment of their status.


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