# Faith: Gift of God or Inherent conduit?



## Herald (Jan 27, 2008)

An interesting discussion took place this afternoon in our small group. We are watching the DVD "Amazing Grace" from the apologetics group. It is on the history of Calvinism. One gentleman brought up the subject of faith and its indispensable part of the _ordo salutus_. He suggested that faith is inherent in all men and is activated during regeneration. He views faith as a conduit for God's grace but nothing more. I believe faith is as much a gift from God as is grace. Trying to weed though Ephesians 2:8,9 in the Greek was a bit confusing. The antecedent for "it" seemed to me to be the entire scope of salvation including grace and faith. All of these are the "gift of God." But even if the exegesis of that passage does not support faith being as much a gift of God as grace, is that assertion biblical, or is faith inherent to all men regardless of their spiritual condition?


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## Poimen (Jan 27, 2008)

Check out this link: An Examination of the Five Points of Calvinism - Part IV: Irrestible Grace by Brian Schwertley

I have never heard anyone argue that faith is inherent in men. What scriptures did he use?


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## KMK (Jan 27, 2008)

I think the assertion is Biblical:



> Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
> 
> Jhn 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.


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## Herald (Jan 27, 2008)

Daniel,

This gentleman used passages such as John 3 and Hebrews 12 to support his contention that all men have faith. He concedes that only the elect will exercise _saving_ faith but believe that all men have faith. He turns faith into a delivery system of sorts. It's benign in of itself. He describes himself as a Calvinist but I can tell he is struggling with understanding exactly what that means. He also balked at regeneration as part of the _ordo salutus_ but I have less problem with that at this point. Many baptists view the _ordo salutus_ as instantaneous.


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## SIXDAYZ (Jan 27, 2008)

Trying desperately to hold onto the "last string" of human ability... There's only one problem with that historically - the Bible.


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## Contra_Mundum (Jan 27, 2008)

It might help to discuss saving faith in its various aspects, traditionally: knowledge, assent, and trust.

Every man has the faculty of believing (the verbal idea related to belief/faith), the problem for him is in the *object*, that is he cannot apprehend Christ, not in any true or saving way. I don't think this is what the individual in the discipleship-group meant, however; he sounds like he's talking about some capacity which is _present_, just _missing_ some vital component; these kinds of views lend themselves to "preparationism", the idea that one can come "so far" but can't take the last step without a little help.

As I said, the problem with men isn't that they don't "believe" in things, but that they believe in the WRONG things. They cannot "see" the kingdom of God" (Jn. 3:3). In that text, spiritual sight is analogous to physical sight, as contrasted in 2 Cor 5:7, or Heb. 11:1, 13. Natural man is liable to put his "eyes" out rather than accept a look at the cross as vital. Compare with Moses raising the brazen serpent, Nu 21:9, "Look and live!" yet many would not.

Some look at Christ on the cross and mock, Mt 27:40-42, they cannot see who or what is there, though they perceive some earthly reality that is present. All this to say, men who are not regenerated aren't seeking Christ in any fashion. What they do "see" they reject, Rom 1:18. We can even say this about an intimate of Jesus, Judas Iscariot. Talk about someone who couldn't see what was right in front of his nose!

The converse is also true--those who are given "eyes to see" and "ears to hear" in fact do see and hear. We must be solicitous, however, to be sure not to "run in vain" (Gal. 2:2, Phil. 2:16). Keep "looking unto Jesus" (Heb. 12:2).


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## moral necessity (Jan 27, 2008)

oops


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## Amazing Grace (Jan 27, 2008)

moral necessity said:


> "Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed...But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian..." - Gal. 3:23,25.
> 
> I would ask him, "Why would faith have to come to us if we already had it?"



I would not use this verse mn, faith in the context speaks of Christ/Gospel, at times they are synonymous. Think of it as doctrine. 

That being said, I know Calvin speaks of some spark of light that all, head for head are given, could this be what the gentleman is referring to? Does anyone know of the place where calvin speaks of this? Or somethign along the lines? I know it is in the Institutes somehwere, or something relating to some spark of something..


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## moral necessity (Jan 27, 2008)

Thanks, Nicholas. I overlooked that, and I very well agree with you.

Blessings!


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## moral necessity (Jan 27, 2008)

How about this one:

"...let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith..." - Heb. 12:2.


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## py3ak (Jan 28, 2008)

Mr. Brown, there is some debate as to the antecedent of "it" in Ephesians 2:8,9, based on the difference in genders. The best explanation I have heard is that "it" refers to everything in salvation, grace, faith, the whole nine yards. However, Philippians 1:29 should settle the point that faith is, in fact a gift of God, because if it is not only faith but also suffering that is given, it is ineluctably clear that faith is something given.

Philippians 1:29 (ESV): For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 28, 2008)

In addition to what has been said, I think your friend has misapprehended what faith really is. The idea that God has turned an switch to the "On" position then makes our faith an intrinsic quality of our person. It really doesn't reckon with the idea of faith as something that comes outside of us, first of all, and then, when given to us, can best be understood as a trust or a laying hold of Christ and His righteousness. This notion that faith is intrinsic to man once activated would make it our faith itself which is substantively pointed to for our salvation where the faith that is given is the ability to look outside of ourselves.

I suppose there are ways of using words that would not make the idea completely unorthodox but the language itself opens up so many cans of worms as to how we could understand what this latent, unactivated thing called "faith" is until God flips the switch on. It just doesn't do justice to the idea that grace and faith come to us as a gift - they are given to us. The only thing that man is said to understand innately is the Law - the Gospel itself is foreign and needs a herald.


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## Jimmy the Greek (Jan 28, 2008)

I think Rev. Buchanan's points are right on. Human beings have the "capacity" to believe. In that sense the question in the OP may tend to equate "conduit" with "capacity". But biblical faith is intrinsically linked to its object. Therefore saving faith in Christ remains a work of God in us (through regeneration) and in that sense may properly be viewed as a gift.


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## Amazing Grace (Jan 28, 2008)

BUMP^

Anyone know what I am talking about here? lol

*That being said, I know Calvin speaks of some spark of light that all, head for head are given, could this be what the gentleman is referring to? Does anyone know of the place where calvin speaks of this? Or somethign along the lines? I know it is in the Institutes somehwere, or something relating to some spark of something..*


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## Civbert (Jan 28, 2008)

Could your friend be referring to the fact the all men believe in God? You mentioned faith vs. saving faith. The difference to me might be the belief in God (Rom 1:20-21) that is common in all, and belief in the Gospel (Jesus Christ as Savior and Son of God, etc.) that only the regenerate have.


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