# Rapture and the First Resurrection



## fralo4truth

Been recently studying eschatology more, and I can't believe this question hasn't come to me before.

According to dispensational premil thinking, what is the difference between the rapture and the first resurrection (Rev. 20), or do they refer to the same thing? I'm having a hard time understanding which one they feel is to set the millennium age into motion. A brief step-by-step listing of what they claim will happen would be great.

Thanks for your help.


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## wookie

According to dispensational premillennialism, the rapture and the first resurrection are not the same thing. Dispensationalism teaches that the rapture will take place prior to the start of the seven year tribulation and will involve "Christians who have died since the church began at Pentecost" (Paul N. Benware, _Understanding End Times Prophecy_ (Chicago: Moody Publishers, 2006), p. 198). And as for the first resurrection, it "will take place prior to the start of the millennial kingdom" (p. 96) and will involve "Old Testament saints and the saints who perished in the tribulation" (p. 200).

Here's an overview of the events by Paul Benware (pp. 197-203):


The rapture of the church
The judgment seat of Christ
The seven-year tribulation
The second coming of Christ to the earth
The judgment of the living Gentiles
The judgment of Israel
The resurrection and rewarding of Old Testament saints and the saints who perished in the tribulation
The binding of Satan (Rev. 20:1-3)
The actual establishing of the messianic kingdom

The millennial kingdom of Jesus Christ
The judgments of the end times
Final judgment of Satan and the fallen angels
Unbelievers will be judged at the great white throne judgment
Judgment of the heavens and the earth

The eternal state


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## Manuel

Hmm... interesting! according to dispensationalists the first resurrection is not the first resurrection. Go figure!


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## MLCOPE2

wookie said:


> According to dispensational premillennialism, the rapture and the first resurrection are not the same thing. Dispensationalism teaches that the rapture will take place prior to the start of the seven year tribulation and will involve "Christians who have died since the church began at Pentecost" (Paul N. Benware, _Understanding End Times Prophecy_ (Chicago: Moody Publishers, 2006), p. 198). And as for the first resurrection, it "will take place prior to the start of the millennial kingdom" (p. 96) and will involve "Old Testament saints and the saints who perished in the tribulation" (p. 200).
> 
> Here's an overview of the events by Paul Benware (pp. 197-203):
> 
> 
> The rapture of the church
> The judgment seat of Christ
> The seven-year tribulation
> The second coming of Christ to the earth
> The judgment of the living Gentiles
> The judgment of Israel
> The resurrection and rewarding of Old Testament saints and the saints who perished in the tribulation
> The binding of Satan (Rev. 20:1-3)
> The actual establishing of the messianic kingdom
> 
> The millennial kingdom of Jesus Christ
> The judgments of the end times
> Final judgment of Satan and the fallen angels
> Unbelievers will be judged at the great white throne judgment
> Judgment of the heavens and the earth
> 
> The eternal state



You forgot the marriage supper of the lamb! Most Dispensationalists would put it as point 2.5


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## wookie

MLCOPE2 said:


> You forgot the marriage supper of the lamb! Most Dispensationalists would put it as point 2.5


Hey, you are correct! I forgot this point. Benware writes the following paragraph under the point "The Judgment Seat of Christ": "Following the judgment seat of Christ and before His second coming to the earth, the marriage of the Lamb (Christ) will take place (Rev. 19:9). This event eternally unites the newly rewarded church with the Lord Jesus" (p. 198).


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## tcalbrecht

wookie said:


> *According to dispensational premillennialism, the rapture and the first resurrection are not the same thing.* Dispensationalism teaches that the rapture will take place prior to the start of the seven year tribulation and will involve "Christians who have died since the church began at Pentecost" (Paul N. Benware, _Understanding End Times Prophecy_ (Chicago: Moody Publishers, 2006), p. 198). And as for the first resurrection, it "will take place prior to the start of the millennial kingdom" (p. 96) and will involve "Old Testament saints and the saints who perished in the tribulation" (p. 200).




This is not universally held within dispensationalism. Most dispensationalists conflate the rapture resurrection and the second coming resurrection as the "first resurrection." E.g., Scofield writes in his Notes on Rev. 20:



> first resurrection
> 
> The "resurrection of the just" is mentioned in Luke 14:13,14 and the resurrection of "life" distinguished from the "resurrection unto damnation" in John 5:29. We here learn for the first time what interval of time separates these two resurrections.
> 
> (See Scofield "1 Corinthians 15:52")



At 1 Cor. 15, he says this:



> (4) Two resurrections are yet future, which are inclusive of "all that are in the graves" John 5:28. These are distinguished as "of life" ; 1 Corinthians 15:22,23; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17; Revelation 20:4 and "of judgment" ; John 5:28,29; Revelation 20:11-13. They are separated by a period of one thousand years Revelation 20:5. *The "first resurrection," that "unto life," will occur at the second coming of Christ 1 Corinthians 15:23 the saints of the O.T. and church ages meeting Him in the air 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 while the martyrs of the tribulation, who also have part in the resurrection Revelation 20:4 are raised at the end of the great tribulation. *



Note that Scofield includes the OT saints in the rapture, further confusing the alleged distinction between Israel and the Church.


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## wookie

tcalbrecht said:


> Most dispensationalists conflate the rapture resurrection and the second coming resurrection as the "first resurrection."


Tom, I think you're right about the conflation. I have misread Benware on the rapture and the first resurrection. When discussing the rapture, Benware notes that the Christians who will be involved in the rapture "will be part of the 'first resurrection' (Rev. 20:5-6)" (p. 198).



tcalbrecht said:


> Note that Scofield includes the OT saints in the rapture, further confusing the alleged distinction between Israel and the Church.


I think you may have perhaps misspoken about the OT saints being in the rapture. As we would now agree, dispensationalism teaches that the first resurrection is made up of both the pretribulational rapture and the second coming resurrection. Nevertheless, dispensationalism teaches a distinction between the pretribulational rapture and the second coming of Christ. If you observe carefully your citation of Scofield's notes, Scofield notes that the OT saints will be resurrected at the second coming of Christ.


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## tcalbrecht

wookie said:


> tcalbrecht said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most dispensationalists conflate the rapture resurrection and the second coming resurrection as the "first resurrection."
> 
> 
> 
> Tom, I think you're right about the conflation. I have misread Benware on the rapture and the first resurrection. When discussing the rapture, Benware notes that the Christians who will be involved in the rapture "will be part of the 'first resurrection' (Rev. 20:5-6)" (p. 198).
> 
> 
> 
> tcalbrecht said:
> 
> 
> 
> Note that Scofield includes the OT saints in the rapture, further confusing the alleged distinction between Israel and the Church.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *I think you may have perhaps misspoken about the OT saints being in the rapture. *As we would now agree, dispensationalism teaches that the first resurrection is made up of both the pretribulational rapture and the second coming resurrection. Nevertheless, dispensationalism teaches a distinction between the pretribulational rapture and the second coming of Christ. If you observe carefully your citation of Scofield's notes, Scofield notes that the OT saints will be resurrected at the second coming of Christ.
Click to expand...



It is Scofield who was confused. He was the one claiming the OT believers will be part of the rapture. I.e.,



> The "first resurrection," that "unto life," will occur at the second coming of Christ 1 Corinthians 15:23 *the saints of the O.T. and church ages meeting Him in the air 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 *while the martyrs of the tribulation, who also have part in the resurrection Revelation 20:4 are raised at the end of the great tribulation. (From Scofield's Notes; See 1 Corinthians - Chapter 15 - Scofield Reference Notes (1917 Edition)).



Note Scofield calls these OT believers "saints" and includes them in the rapture along with church age saints.


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## carlgobelman

This discussion further illustrates why I left Dispensationalism over a year ago. Just trying to follow this discussion is giving me a headache...

Two resurrections, two Second Comings, two judgments, etc. Dispensationalism just gives me eschatological double-vision!


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## wookie

tcalbrecht said:


> It is Scofield who was confused. He was the one claiming the OT believers will be part of the rapture. I.e.,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The "first resurrection," that "unto life," will occur at the second coming of Christ 1 Corinthians 15:23 *the saints of the O.T. and church ages meeting Him in the air 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 *while the martyrs of the tribulation, who also have part in the resurrection Revelation 20:4 are raised at the end of the great tribulation. (From Scofield's Notes; See 1 Corinthians - Chapter 15 - Scofield Reference Notes (1917 Edition)).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Note Scofield calls these OT believers "saints" and includes them in the rapture along with church age saints.
Click to expand...

I do not have the Scofield Bible, therefore I am depending on your citation to guide my understanding of Scofield's eschatology. From your citation, it appears that the phrase "the second coming of Christ" and the phrase "the saints of the O.T." are parts of the same sentence. Could you clarify whether these phrases are parts of the same sentence? 

Assuming that they are, then it seems to me that Scofield believes that the event of "the saints of the O.T. and church ages meeting Him in the air" is connected to the second coming of Christ.


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## tcalbrecht

The way I parse Scofield's Note is this: The "first resurrection" involves all believers. It is broken into two chronologically distinct parts, 1) the rapture involving both OT and church age "saints", and 2) the tribulation resurrection of post-rapture martyrs. 

There seems to be some disagreement among dispensationalists as to what to do with the OT believers. Do they get resurrected in the rapture or do they resurrected after the “great tribulation”? Based on the overall dispensational theology of Israel they don’t really seem to fit into either group, although, not being part of the “Church,” they seem to fit better in the latter group.


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## puritan lad

Well, if you have 1 Thess. 4:17 as the rapture of the church, then you will have to include 

0.5 the resurrection prior to the rapture (1 Thess. 4:16)

5.5 the resurrection of the wicked after the millennium (Rev. 20:5)

That makes 3 separate resurrection 1,007 years apart. (I usually don't bother to ask if the millennium saints have a resurrection also. How does that compare with John 5:28-29?

Dispensationalism falls to pieces in just examining the resurrection on a consistent basis.


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## wookie

tcalbrecht said:


> There seems to be some disagreement among dispensationalists as to what to do with the OT believers. Do they get resurrected in the rapture or do they resurrected after the “great tribulation”? Based on the overall dispensational theology of Israel they don’t really seem to fit into either group, although, not being part of the “Church,” they seem to fit better in the latter group.


Perhaps, as you said, there may be a debate among dispensationalists about the timing of the resurrection of OT saints. So far, my understanding of dispensationalism is that it places the resurrection of OT saints after the seven-year tribulation. John F. Walvoord, a prominent dispensational scholar, holds to this view. The following comprehensive outline is taken from Walvoord's commentary on Revelation in _The Bible Knowledge Commentary_. As you can see in point I.H.7 below, Walvoord notes that the OT saints are resurrected after the seven-year tribulation.



> *Outline of End-Time Events Predicted in the Bible**
> 
> 
> Events Before, During, and After the Seven-Year End-Time Period (This seven-year period is the 70th ”seven“ of Daniel, Dan. 9:27.)
> 
> Events immediately before the seven-year period
> Church raptured (John 14:1-3; 1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thes. 4:16-18; Rev. 3:10)
> Restrainer removed (2 Thes. 2:7)
> Judgment seat of Christ (in heaven, 1 Cor. 3:12-15; 2 Cor. 5:10)
> Antichrist rises to power over the Roman confederacy (Dan. 7:20, 24)
> 
> Event at the beginning of the seven-year period
> Antichrist (the coming ”ruler“) makes a covenant with Israel (Dan. 9:26-27)
> 
> Events in the first half of the seven-year period
> Israel living in peace in the land (Ezek. 38:8)
> Temple sacrifices instituted (Rev. 11:1-2)
> World church dominates religion and the Antichrist (Rev. 17)
> 
> Events perhaps just before the middle of the seven-year period
> Gog and his allies invade Palestine from the north (Ezek. 38:2, 5-6, 22)
> Gog and his allies destroyed by God (Ezek. 38:17-23)
> 
> Events at the middle of the seven-year period
> Satan cast down from heaven and energizes the Antichrist (Rev. 12:12-17)
> Antichrist breaks his covenant with Israel, causing her sacrifices to cease (Dan. 9:27)
> The 10 kings under the Antichrist destroy the world church (Rev. 17:16-18)
> The 144,000 Israelites saved and sealed (Rev. 7:1-8)
> 
> Events of the second half of the seven-year period
> _These three-and-one-half years are called ”the Great Tribulation“ (Rev. 7:14; cf. ”great distress, “ Matt. 24:21; ”time of distress, “ Dan. 12:1; and ”a time of trouble for Jacob, “ Jer. 30:7)_
> Rebellion (apostasy) against the truth in the professing church (Matt. 24:12; 2 Thes. 2:3)
> Antichrist becomes a world ruler (1st seal, Rev. 6:1-2) with support of the Western confederacy (Rev. 13:5, 7; 17:12-13)
> Antichrist revealed as ”the man of lawlessness, “ ”the lawless one“ (2 Thes. 2:3, 8-9)
> War, famine, and death (2nd, 3rd, and 4th seals, Rev. 6:3-8)
> Converted multitudes from every nation martyred (5th seal, Rev. 6:9-11; 7:9-14; Matt. 24:9)
> Natural disturbances and worldwide fear of divine wrath (6th Seal, Rev. 6:12-17)
> Antichrist’s image (an ”abomination“) set up for worship (Dan. 9:27; Matt. 24:15; 2 Thes. 2:4; Rev. 13:14-15)
> Two witnesses begin their ministry (Rev. 11:3)
> The false prophet promotes the Antichrist, who is worshiped by nations and unbelieving Israel (Matt. 24:11-12; 2 Thes. 2:11; Rev. 13:4, 11-15)
> Mark of the beast used to promote worship of the Antichrist (Rev. 13:16-18)
> Israel scattered because of the anger of Satan (Rev. 12:6, 13-17) and because of the ”abomination“ (Antichrist’s image) in the temple (Matt. 24:15-26)
> Jerusalem overrun by Gentiles (Luke 21:24; Rev. 11:2)
> Antichrist and false prophets deceive many people (Matt. 24:11; 2 Thes. 2:9-11)
> The gospel of the kingdom proclaimed (Matt. 24:14)
> Israel persecuted by the Antichrist (Jer. 30:5-7; Dan. 12:1; Zech. 13:8; Matt. 24:21-22)
> Trumpet judgments (Rev. 8-9) and bowl judgments (Rev. 16) poured out by God on Antichrist’s empire
> Blasphemy increases as the judgments intensify (Rev. 16:8-11)
> 
> Events concluding the seven-year period
> Two witnesses slain by the Antichrist (Rev. 11:7)
> Two witnesses resurrected (Rev. 11:11-12)
> The king of the South (Egypt) and the king of the North fight against the Antichrist (Dan. 11:40a)
> Antichrist enters Palestine and defeats Egypt, Libya, and Ethiopia (Dan. 11:40a-43)
> Armies from the East and the North move toward Palestine (Dan. 11:44; Rev. 16:12)
> Jerusalem is ravaged (Zech. 14:1-4)
> Commercial Babylon is destroyed (Rev. 16:19; 18:1-3, 21-24)
> Signs appear in the earth and sky (Isa. 13:10; Joel 2:10, 30-31; 3:15; Matt. 24:29)
> Christ returns with the armies of heaven (Matt. 24:27-31; Rev. 19:11-16)
> Jews flee Jerusalem facilitated by topographical changes (Zech. 14:5)
> Armies unite at Armageddon against Christ and the armies of heaven (Joel 3:9-11; Rev. 16:16; 19:17-19)
> Armies are destroyed by Christ (Rev. 19:19, 21)
> The ”beast“ (Antichrist) and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire (Rev. 19:20)
> 
> Events following the seven-year period
> Final regathering of Israel (Isa. 11:11-12; Jer. 30:3; Ezek. 36:24; 37:1-14; Amos 9:14-15; Micah 4:6-7; Matt. 24:31)
> A remnant of Israelites turn to the Lord and are forgiven and cleansed (Hosea 14:1-5; Zech. 12:10; 13:1)
> National deliverance of Israel from the Antichrist (Dan. 12:1b; Zech. 12:10; 13:1; Rom. 11:26-27)
> Judgment of living Israel (Ezek. 20:33-38; Matt. 25:1-30)
> Judgment of living Gentiles (Matt. 25:31-46)
> Satan cast into the abyss (Rev. 20:1-3)
> Old Testament saints resurrected (Isa. 26:19; Dan. 12:1-3)
> Tribulation saints resurrected (Rev. 20:4-6)
> Daniel 9:24 fulfilled
> Marriage supper of the Lamb (Rev. 19:7-9)
> Christ begins His reign on earth (Ps. 72:8; Isa. 9:6-7; Dan. 2:14-35; 44; 7:13-14; Zech. 9:10; Rev. 20:4)
> 
> 
> Characteristics and Events of the Millennium
> Physical characteristics
> Topography and geography of the earth changed (Isa. 2:2; Ezek. 47:1-12; 48:8-20; Zech. 14:4, 8, 10)
> Wild animals tamed (Isa. 11:6-9; 35:9; Ezek. 34:25)
> Crops abundant (Isa. 27:6; 35:1-2, 6-7; Amos 9:13; Zech. 14:8)
> Human longevity increased (Isa. 65:20-23)
> 
> Spiritual and religious characteristics and events
> Satan confined in the abyss (Rev. 20:1-3)
> Millennial temple built (Ezek. 40:5-43:27)
> Animal sacrifices offered as memorials to Christ’s death (Isa. 56:7; 66:20-23; Jer. 33:17-18; Ezek. 43:18-27; 45:13-46:24; Mal. 3:3-4)
> Feasts of the New Year, Passover, and Tabernacles reinstituted (Ezek. 45:18-25; Zech. 14:16-21)
> Nations worship in Jerusalem (Isa. 2:2-4; Micah 4:2; 7:12; Zech. 8:20-23; 14:16-21)
> Worldwide knowledge of God (Isa. 11:9; Jer. 31:34; Micah 4:5; Hab. 2:14)
> Unparalleled filling of and empowerment by the Holy Spirit on Israel (Isa. 32:15; 44:3; Ezek. 36:24-29; 39:29; Joel 2:28-29)
> New Covenant with Israel fulfilled (Jer. 31:31-34; Ezek. 11:19-20; 36:25-32)
> Righteousness and justice prevails (Isa. 9:7; 11:4; 42:1-4; Jer. 23:5)
> 
> Political characteristics and events
> Israel reunited as a nation (Jer. 3:18; Ezek. 37:15-23)
> Israel at peace in the land (Deut. 30:1-10; Isa. 32:18; Hosea 14:5, 7; Amos 9:15; Micah 4:4; 5:4-5a; Zech. 3:10; 14:11)
> Abrahamic Covenant land-grant boundaries established (Gen. 15:18-21; Ezek. 47:13-48:8, 23-27)
> Christ in Jerusalem rules over Israel (Isa. 40:11; Micah 4:7; 5:2b)
> Davidic Covenant fulfilled (Christ on the throne of David, 2 Sam. 7:11-16; Isa. 9:6-7; Jer. 33:17-26; Amos 9:11-12, Luke 1:32-33)
> Christ rules over and judges the nations (Isa. 11:3-5; Micah 4:2-3a; Zech. 14:9; Rev. 19:15)
> Resurrected saints reign with Christ (Matt. 19:28; 2 Tim. 2:12; Rev. 5:10; 20:6)
> Universal peace prevails (Isa. 2:4; 32:17-18; 60:18; Hosea 2:18; Micah 4:2-4; 5:4; Zech. 9:10
> Jerusalem made the world’s capital (Jer. 3:17; Ezek. 48:30-35; Joel 3:16-17; Micah 4:1, 6-8; Zech. 8:2-3)
> Israel exalted above the Gentiles (Isa. 14:1-2; 49:22-23; 60:14-17; 61:5-9)
> The world blessed through Israel (Micah 5:7)
> 
> Events following the Millennium
> Satan released from the abyss (Rev. 20:7)
> Satan deceives the nations (Rev. 20:8)
> Global armies besiege Jerusalem (Rev. 20:9a)
> Global armies destroyed by fire (Rev. 20:9b)
> Satan cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:10)
> Evil angels judged (1 Cor. 6:3)
> The wicked dead resurrected (Dan. 12:2b; John 5:29b)
> The wicked judged at the Great White Throne (Rev. 20:11-14)
> The wicked cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:14-15; 21:8)
> 
> 
> Eternity
> Christ delivers the mediatorial (millennial) kingdom to God the Father (1 Cor. 15:24)
> Present heavens and earth demolished (Rev. 21:1)
> New heavens and new earth created (2 Peter 3:10; Rev. 21:1)
> New Jerusalem descends to the new earth (Rev. 21:2, 10-27)
> Christ rules forever in the eternal kingdom (Isa. 9:6-7; Ezek. 37:24-28; Dan. 7:13-14; Luke 1:32-33; Rev. 11:15)
> 
> * According to John F. Walvoord's commentary on Revelation in _The Bible Knowledge Commentary_


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## tcalbrecht

wookie said:


> Perhaps, as you said, there may be a debate among dispensationalists about the timing of the resurrection of OT saints. So far, my understanding of dispensationalism is that it places the resurrection of OT saints after the seven-year tribulation. John F. Walvoord, a prominent dispensational scholar, holds to this view. The following comprehensive outline is taken from Walvoord's commentary on Revelation in _The Bible Knowledge Commentary_. As you can see in point I.H.7 below, Walvoord notes that the OT saints are resurrected after the seven-year tribulation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 7. Old Testament saints resurrected (Isa. 26:19; Dan. 12:1-3)
Click to expand...


Walvoord’s proof texts offer no conclusive evidence either way. In fact, one must discount the suggestion of a general resurrection of all Israel (just and unjust) in Dan. 12:2 to see the timing of this as not coinciding with the general resurrection after the millennium ... a fact that Walvoord seems to overlook since he does not have any resurrection of the just after the millennium (see II.D), even though he speaks of human “longevity” as a characteristic of the millennium (II.A.4).

Based on a broad understanding of their system, a dispensationalist could be consistent putting the OT believers in either resurrection. Since recent dispensationalists claim loudly and often that OT believers are justified by the blood of Christ, they could be resurrected with the NT believers. In fact, I would guess that most progressive dispensationalists would claim that timing. 

But that fact that Walvoord places the OT believer’s resurrection after the tribulation makes it clear that he doesn’t see them as truly being “in Christ”, but in some inferior position. “And *the dead in Christ *will rise first.” (1 Thess. 4:16).

Does Walvoord’s confused view speak for all dispensationalism? Or is it just evidence that the system is largely unworkable, with significant holes that cannot be filled?


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## wookie

tcalbrecht said:


> Walvoord’s proof texts offer no conclusive evidence either way. In fact, one must discount the suggestion of a general resurrection of all Israel (just and unjust) in Dan. 12:2 to see the timing of this as not coinciding with the general resurrection after the millennium ... a fact that Walvoord seems to overlook since he does not have any resurrection of the just after the millennium (see II.D), even though he speaks of human “longevity” as a characteristic of the millennium (II.A.4).
> 
> Based on a broad understanding of their system, a dispensationalist could be consistent putting the OT believers in either resurrection. Since recent dispensationalists claim loudly and often that OT believers are justified by the blood of Christ, they could be resurrected with the NT believers. In fact, I would guess that most progressive dispensationalists would claim that timing.
> 
> But that fact that Walvoord places the OT believer’s resurrection after the tribulation makes it clear that he doesn’t see them as truly being “in Christ”, but in some inferior position. “And *the dead in Christ *will rise first.” (1 Thess. 4:16).
> 
> Does Walvoord’s confused view speak for all dispensationalism? Or is it just evidence that the system is largely unworkable, with significant holes that cannot be filled?


You have made a good observation pertaining to the OT believers being justified by the blood of Christ. Thus, I think you may be right that for the progressive dispensationalists, there is some ambiguity about the timing of the resurrection of OT saints.

From what I understand, Walvoord is not a progressive dispensationalist, but he belongs to the camp of traditional dispensationalism. I believe _The Bible Knowledge Commentary_ series falls under traditional dispensationalism as well. In his point I.A.1, Walvoord uses the proof text of 1 Thess. 4:16-18 to support his view of the rapture of the church. Now why didn't he include OT believers in that point? I think Thomas L. Constable's commentary on 1 Thess. 4:16 in _The Bible Knowledge Commentary_ could perhaps shed some light on Walvoord's view: 



> Then the dead in Christ will be resurrected, that is, believers of this dispensation will be raised. Old Testament saints will evidently be raised at the end of the Great Tribulation (Dan. 12:2), for the phrase “in Christ” refers exclusively to Church-Age saints. The bodies of the dead in Christ will rise before the living Christians are caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thes. 4:17).


From the above citation, it appears that Constable (and perhaps, Walvoord) believes that the phrase "in Christ" in 1 Thess. 4:16 emphasizes a particular dispensation, rather seeing the phrase in a salvific sense (i.e. "justified by the blood of Christ"). In light of this, I am rather hesitant to portray Walvoord as believing that the OT saints belong to some "inferior position." For Walvoord, the OT saints simply belong to a different dispensation, a dispensation that is not the dispensation of the Church (and of Christ).


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## tcalbrecht

wookie said:


> From the above citation, it appears that Constable (and perhaps, Walvoord) believes that the phrase "in Christ" in 1 Thess. 4:16 emphasizes a particular dispensation, rather seeing the phrase in a salvific sense (i.e. "justified by the blood of Christ"). In light of this, I am rather hesitant to portray Walvoord as believing that the OT saints belong to some "inferior position." For Walvoord, the OT saints simply belong to a different dispensation, a dispensation that is not the dispensation of the Church (and of Christ).



Why should OT believers be deprived of the joy and blessing of meeting their Lord in the air? Do John the Baptist, his father, Zacharias, the prophet Simeon, etc. get put in with Abraham or with the apostle Paul? What do “tribulation martyrs” have in common with Abraham and Moses? Practically nothing. 

Clearly, the problem with dispensationalism is that with these multiple comings, resurrections, judgments, etc. it’s virtually impossible for the proponents to come to any consensus on who gets placed where. It is a failed system for just that reason.

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." (John 8:56)


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## Historic Premillennialist

Adding to what has been said, 
what they would argue is that Abraham, Jacob and all OT saints are part of the old dispensation (normally, defined by them as a time of testing of man on which he is responsible to obey they 'new revealed will' of God for that time), and that they are the 'Israel of God' -not us-, so, they have earthly promises and blessings, while the church ("God's people in the NT", they would say) has heavenly promises and blessings. So, according to their understanding of those 2 peoples of God, which are (argued by some) eternally parallel, so they can't 'touch' each other. That is the main reason because, dispensationalism is exclusively 'attached' with a pre-tribulational rapture, on which, "distinction between Israel (even believing Irael) and church is respected troughout God's program". 

Another thing they would say, in order to maintain that distinction, is that Israel is often called in the OT as the "unfaithful wife", and that the church in the NT is seen as the True and Faithful wife. That is why, they would apply Rev 19:7 'Let us rejoice and exult and give Him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready' to the NT church and not Israel of the Old Testament. What is curious about that, is that in Isaiah 54:1-14, God calles Himself the 'Husband' of the community of the true sons of God (v.13)...plus, would dispensationalists say that Abraham, Jacob, David,etc, are part of the "unfaithful wife"???? Doesn't make much sense to me!


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## wookie

tcalbrecht said:


> Why should OT believers be deprived of the joy and blessing of meeting their Lord in the air? Do John the Baptist, his father, Zacharias, the prophet Simeon, etc. get put in with Abraham or with the apostle Paul? What do “tribulation martyrs” have in common with Abraham and Moses? Practically nothing.
> 
> Clearly, the problem with dispensationalism is that with these multiple comings, resurrections, judgments, etc. it’s virtually impossible for the proponents to come to any consensus on who gets placed where. It is a failed system for just that reason.
> 
> "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." (John 8:56)


I couldn't agree with you more that dispensationalism has real problems. However, I'm not sure if dispensationalists would be persuaded by some of the questions you posed. Perhaps some will. Or perhaps they might simply say that there are certain mysteries that they do not have the answers. 

For me, I will approach dispensationalism from a different angle by examining the key proof-texts that they often use to support their arguments. The failure of dispensationalism lies in their exegesis of the biblical texts. For instance, the key proof-text for their doctrine of pretribulational rapture, in my view, is Rev. 3:10: "Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth."

Walvoord, in his commentary on Revelation in _The Bible Knowledge Commentary_, writes the following about Rev. 3:10:



> The church in Philadelphia received no rebuke from Christ. Instead they were commended and given a promise because they had been willing to endure patiently. The promise was, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. This is an explicit promise that the Philadelphia church will not endure the hour of trial which is unfolded, beginning in Revelation 6. Christ was saying that the Philadelphia church would not enter the future time of trouble; He could not have stated it more explicitly. If Christ had meant to say that they would be preserved through a time of trouble, or would be taken out from within the Tribulation, a different verb and a different preposition would have been required.
> 
> Though scholars have attempted to avoid this conclusion in order to affirm posttribulationism, the combination of the verb “keep” (tērein) with the preposition “from” (ek) is in sharp contrast to the meaning of keeping the church “through” (dia), a preposition which is not used here. The expression “the hour of trial” (a time period) makes it clear that they would be kept out of that period. It is difficult to see how Christ could have made this promise to this local church if it were God’s intention for the entire church to go through the Tribulation that will come on the entire world. Even though the church at Philadelphia would go to glory via death long before the time of trouble would come, if the church here is taken to be typical of the body of Christ standing true to the faith, the promise seems to go beyond the Philadelphia church to all those who are believers in Christ.


Some of the issues I have with Walvoord's exegesis of Rev. 3:10 are as follows:

While dispensationalists profess to adopt a "literal" hermeneutic, it is unclear on what basis is Walvoord attempting to "spiritualize" Christ's message to the Philadelphia church in John's time and applying it to worldwide believers in the distant future (i.e., "... the promise seems to go beyond the Philadelphia church to all those who are believers in Christ. ").
What is the "hour of trial" (ὥρας τοῦ πειρασμοῦ)? Unfortunately, Walvoord's exegesis does not go far enough and he fails to consider the various possibilities. Is it imminent? Rev. 2:10, 22 seems to suggest so. Is it referring to: 
the final period of escalated tribulation in Rev. 11:7 and 20:8, to which universal persecution is unleashed against the church? 
the final downfall and judgment of the ungodly world (see Rev. 11:13; 14:7, 15; 18:10, 17, 19)? 
an imminent trial that will come on all in Asia Minor or on the limited known world of John's time?

What is the "whole world" (οἰκουμένης ὅλης)? Is it referring to:
all of Asia Minor?
the limited known world of John's time?
all of the earth?


Walvoord seems to think that the verb τηρέω ("keep") and the preposition ἐκ ("out") in the phrase σε *τηρήσω ἐκ* τῆς ὥρας τοῦ πειρασμοῦ ("*I will keep* you *from* the hour of trial") means that the believers will not be physically on earth during the "hour of trial." This is, however, quite improbable, because of the parallels between Rev. 3:10 and Jn. 17:15. In Jn.17:15, the verb τηρέω and the preposition ἐκ are also used. Jesus said: "I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that *you keep* (τηρήσῃς) them *from* (ἐκ) the evil one." Thus, Jesus denies a _physical_ removal from tribulation and affirms a _spiritual_ protection from the "evil one".

It is unlikely that Rev. 3:10 is referring to a physical protection of believers, since the preceding letters to the churches focus on spiritual perseverance, even at the cost of one's physical life (e.g., 2:8-11; 2:13). This also flies in the face of the rest of the NT's view of suffering (e.g., Rom. 8:35-39; 2 Cor. 4:16-5:10; 6:4-10; Phil. 3:10-11; Col. 1:24). Throughout redemptive history, the ultimate threat to the people of God is not physical harm, but spiritual harm. If Rev. 3:10 is referring to a promise of physical protection, then it is the only place in the entire book of Revelation to do so.
By the way, the above points are dealt with more fully in G. K. Beale's commentary on Revelation from the _NIGTC_ series. No matter what eschatological position you hold, I highly recommend Beale's commentary.


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