# Where does Job Sin?



## Romans922 (Feb 8, 2008)

Job sins, he is condemned by Elihu and the Lord? Job repents in ch. 42, so where does Job sin?


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## CDM (Feb 8, 2008)

Chapter 32:1-2

1So these three men ceased to answer Job, *because he was righteous in his own eyes*. 

2Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, *because he justified himself rather than God*.


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## Romans922 (Feb 8, 2008)

Right, that is what i was thinking, I didn't know if there was anything before that and/or after.

I'm preaching a sermon on Job 18 where Bildad is accusing him of sinning, which is the supposed reason for his suffering.


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## A5pointer (Feb 8, 2008)

I think it was the whole thing about questioning God and making assumptions about how things ought be.


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## BobVigneault (Feb 8, 2008)

I think Job understood correctly that there was no specific act for which he was being punished. The problem was that he protested his innocence so loudly that he was beginning to sound like he didn't suffer from sin as a condition. As Chris pointed out, he may have begun to make an argument that he was justified by his own righteousness.


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## JBaldwin (Feb 8, 2008)

I agree, Chris.

Job 42:1-6
Then Job answered the Lord and said:
2 “I know that you can do all things,
and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
3 ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
4 ‘Hear, and I will speak;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.’
5 I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear,
but now my eye sees you;
6 therefore I despise myself,
and repent [1] in dust and ashes.”

I love Job's response in chapter 42:1, especially vs. 5, because it reveals that at the heart of Job's pride was the fact that before his suffering he knew God in his head (I heard of you with the hearing of the ear)a puffed up head knowledge, but his experience caused him to really know God personally (now my eyes see you). Isn't that what all suffering should do for us, humble us and make us to truly know, experientially, who God is? In other words, it's all about our relationship with Him.


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## DTK (Feb 8, 2008)

Romans922 said:


> Right, that is what i was thinking, I didn't know if there was anything before that and/or after.
> 
> I'm preaching a sermon on Job 18 where Bildad is accusing him of sinning, which is the supposed reason for his suffering.


Having dealt with and preached through the book of Job, I thought I might offer the following remarks. Considering the complexity of the structure of the Book of Job, God's initial remarks about Job, and the various cycles of interactions between Job and his three "would be" friends, I would be very careful not to regard their arguments against Job always as an accurate assessment of his status before God. His three friends have a certain theological paradigm with which they approach Job. That theological paradigm is that the righteous always prosper and the wicked always suffer (For them, this paradigm is a universal truth, rather than a general truth...Universal truths being those that always hold true, and general truths being those that generally hold to be true. The truth that the righteous prosper and the wicked suffer, as taught in the wisdom literature of Holy Scripture, is a general truth rather than a universal truth). But Job is the exception to their theological paradigm, and in their little universe of understanding Job must be made to fit their theological scheme. So their response to Job's suffering is, "Job you've sinned and committed some great crime against heaven, repent and find in God relief for your suffering." All that serve to accomplish was to vex Job's soul, for he had already searched in vain for any precipitating and offending sin as the cause for his suffering. Job's sin came about during the course of his suffering, in questing the goodness, wisdom and righteousness of God - (see e.g. Job 38:1ff; Job 40:1-2), and not as the precipitating or direct cause for it.

Calvin has offered us what I think is a very important key to understanding the exchanges which transpire between Job and his three friends (Eliphaz, Bildad, & Zophar). Calvin points out...


> *John Calvin:* However, we have also to note that in the whole dispute Job maintains a good case, and his adversary maintains a poor one. Now there is more, that Job maintaining a good case pleads it poorly, and the others bringing a poor case plead it well. See John Calvin, _Sermons from Job_, intro. Harold Dekker (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, reprinted 1979), p. 5. See also Dekker's remarks in his introduction on p. xxxvi.


Of course, this little book has only a few selections of Calvin's sermons on Job, and we must look hopefully to the future that they will all one day be translated and published, if they haven't been already.

But remember, the structure of Job is something like that of a courtroom, and his three friends are the prosecuting attorneys. But as the common proverb goes, anyone representing themselves has a fool for an attorney. For as Calvin noted, Job has a good case but pleads it poorly; his three friends have a bad case but they plead it well. 

I would look for the identification of Job's sin not in his three friends, but in the pronouncements of God when He addresses Job directly. Again, see e.g. Job 38:1ff; Job 40:1-2.

DTK


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## NaphtaliPress (Feb 8, 2008)

*Durham on Job 32*

Here is James Durham's comments are Job 32. Lectures on Job is available at Naphtali Press » Welcome


> 32​
> 
> You heard long debated through many chapters this controversy between Job and his friends. Now from this chapter to the last, the controversy draws to a decision. First by Elihu’s stepping in (chapter 32-38). And secondly, by the Lord’s taking it off his hand in the rest (chapter 39-42).
> 
> ...

Reactions: Informative 1


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## py3ak (Feb 8, 2008)

Another point to consider is that in 1:22 and 2:10 we are specifically told that Job did not sin. What he said, on the contrary, glorified God. But then in chapter 3 when the cycle of debate begins, and throughout the following chapters, that statement is not reiterated. Is it possible that something Job said in chapter 3 was sinful?


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## biblicalthought (Feb 8, 2008)

> I would be very careful not to regard their arguments against Job always as an accurate assessment of his status before God.



DTK hit it on the head. in 38:2 YHWH refers to all their shannanigans as "darkened counsel!" The word literally refers to the pitch-black darkness that is at the very end of a mine. Bildad is viewed by many commentators as a Rationalist, the form of humanism that begins with man's reason as the origin of truth, justice, morals, meaning, and beauty.


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## Pilgrim (Feb 9, 2008)

Thanks for this thread. We are going through Job in our devotions now.


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## Sydnorphyn (Feb 9, 2008)

*e does not*



Romans922 said:


> Job sins, he is condemned by Elihu and the Lord? Job repents in ch. 42, so where does Job sin?



Job is said to _not_ sin in chapters 1-2; his "repentance" is from his ignorance - see 42,7-17.

Peace


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## Contra_Mundum (Feb 9, 2008)

Another resource you may find helpful:
W.H. Green, _Conflict and Triumph: The Argument of the Book of Job Unfolded_

Banner of Truth title Banner of Truth Book Detail


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## Presbyterian Deacon (Feb 9, 2008)

We know that Job's affliction was not because he sinned. But Job's affliction brought forth the corruption and depravity of his heart. Pain revealed his true character. 

In one sense his affliction proved his integrity, in that he did not serve God solely for personal gain, as Satan had suggested (in chapters 1 and 2), nor did he curse God. 

But, on the other hand, his complaints in the midst of suffering showed his inner-corruption. 

He did not curse God, yet he cursed his birth, he cursed his day, he cursed his three counsellors, he cursed his festering sores, he even cursed the ash-heap he was sitting upon.

He says God is pursuing him him like a mad hunter bent on destroying him, yet he has no idea why? He blattantly challenges God to come down and explain what's going on, and then complains when God doesn't show-up.

It is only after God does reveal Himself in chapters 38-41 (God's Science Quiz: Where were You when I made the earth? What are its measurements? and etc...), that Job repents.

I'm persuaded that the sin of which Job repents is his demanding that God answer Him, as though God were some how accountable to him. The sin of the clay demanding of the potter, "Why have you made me this way?" (Romans 9:20). 

This is a sin, which common experience shows us that we all share. We dare question God's providential dealings when things don't go to our liking. In essence God's rebuke of Job in chapters 38-41 is well summarized by Paul's answer to the questioning lump of clay in Romans 9. "But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?"

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## DTK (Feb 10, 2008)

Contra_Mundum said:


> Another resource you may find helpful:
> W.H. Green, _Conflict and Triumph: The Argument of the Book of Job Unfolded_
> 
> Banner of Truth title Banner of Truth Book Detail


I agree with Bruce. This is an excellent commentary/book on Job - Green understands the argument of Job better than anyone I've read on the subject.

DTK


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