# Nicene creed and the filoque...



## jjraby (Nov 24, 2010)

Someone recently asked me about the wording of the nicene creed and why we say it. He asked me that if we say the holy spirit proceeds from the son, then he is not equal to the son. I did not have a good answer for him. I am not familiar with this controversy. So what would you say to this question.


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## MLCOPE2 (Nov 24, 2010)

jjraby said:


> Someone recently asked me about the wording of the nicene creed and why we say it. He asked me that if we say the holy spirit proceeds from the son, then he is not equal to the son. I did not have a good answer for him. I am not familiar with this controversy. So what would you say to this question.


 
Was his position also that if the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father then He is not equal to the Father?


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## Romans922 (Nov 24, 2010)

That's a good question...

Why do you 'say it' in worship?

Does God command that we recite man made creeds in holy worship?


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## MLCOPE2 (Nov 24, 2010)

Romans922 said:


> That's a good question...
> 
> Why do you 'say it' in worship?
> 
> Does God command that we recite man made creeds in holy worship?


 
I'm not sure about J.R.'s church but we recite it during our evening service (which is our Sunday school hour).


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## jjraby (Nov 24, 2010)

i have recited it before, I have no problem with it. I just don't have a good answer to this guy. So the question is. If the Holy spirit proceeds from the Son, How, therefore, Is the Holy spirit equal to the other parts of the trinity?


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## Romans922 (Nov 24, 2010)

Westminster Confession of Faith Chapter 2


I. There is but one only,[1] living, and true God,[2] who is infinite in being and perfection,[3] a most pure spirit,[4] invisible,[5] without body, parts,[6] or passions;[7] immutable,[8] immense,[9] eternal,[10] incomprehensible,[11] almighty,[12] most wise,[13] most holy,[14] most free,[15] most absolute;[16] working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will,[17] for His own glory;[18] most loving,[19] gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin;[20] the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him;[21] and withal, most just, and terrible in His judgments,[22] hating all sin,[23] and who will by no means clear the guilty.[24]


II. God has all life,[25] glory,[26] goodness,[27] blessedness,[28] in and of Himself; and is alone in and unto Himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creatures which He has made,[29] nor deriving any glory from them,[30] but only manifesting His own glory in, by, unto, and upon them. He is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things;[31] and has most sovereign dominion over them, to do by them, for them, or upon them whatsoever Himself pleases.[32] In His sight all things are open and manifest,[33] His knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature,[34] so as nothing is to Him contingent, or uncertain.[35] He is most holy in all His counsels, in all His works, and in all His commands.[36] To Him is due from angels and men, and every other creature, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience He is pleased to require of them.[37]


III. In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.[38] The Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; [39] the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son. [40]


[38] (Traditionally, I John 5:7 is placed here, but we have, for obvious reasons, omitted it in our online edition) MATT 3:16-17 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, _This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased._ MATT 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. II COR 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

[39] JOHN 1:14,18 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


[40] JOHN 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, He shall testify of me. GAL 4:6 And Because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.​


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## Edward (Nov 24, 2010)

Romans922 said:


> Does God command that we recite man made creeds in holy worship?



Are the non-constitutional portions of the PCA Directory of Worship contrary to scripture? 

55-1. It is proper for the congregation of God’s people publicly to confess their faith, using creeds or confessions that are true to the Word, such as, the Apostle’s Creed, the Nicene Creed, or the Westminster Standards.

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jjraby said:


> If the Holy spirit proceeds from the Son, How, therefore, Is the Holy spirit equal to the other parts of the trinity?



Is your questioner influenced by Eastern Orthodox theology?


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## Peairtach (Nov 24, 2010)

There are some theologians that think that the ideas of eternal generation (of the Son from the Father) and eternal procession (of the Spirit from the Father and the Son) involve subordination at an ontological level, and not just the economic subordination that the Triunity has to one another (the Son subordinate to the Father, and the Spirit subordinate to the Father and the Son) in relation to God's acts of Creation, Sustenance of the Creation, Providence and Redemption. 

I.e. that generation and procession imply an _inherent_ subordination within the Trinity, which would imply that the power and glory of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit aren't equal. 

But this doesn't logically follow, anyway.


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## puritan628 (Nov 24, 2010)

During the Sunday morning service, we say the Apostles' Creed because, as our elder who leads it says, "Let's confess with our mouths that which we believe in our hearts." The leadership encourages visitors or newcomers to ask questions about any point they may not understand (eg. the holy catholic [little "c"] church).

I really don't understand how people CAN separate the three any more than I can understand how people could expect a human being to live without a brain, a soul, or a spirit. We HAVE a will (the discussion of free will is a whole 'nother topic); we HAVE a soul; and we HAVE a spirit. We are made in the image of God. God the Father is the person of the Godhead who exercises power by His will; God the Son is the person of the Godhead who represents the soul; and God the Holy spirit is the person of the Godhead who represents the spirit. How could God be God without any one of these three essential elements? How could we be made in God's image and lack any one of these three essential elements? How could we live and move and have our being if we lacked any one of these three essential elements?

This is my humble understanding of the Trinity.


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## Dearly Bought (Nov 25, 2010)

puritan628 said:


> I really don't understand how people CAN separate the three any more than I can understand how people could expect a human being to live without a brain, a soul, or a spirit. We HAVE a will (the discussion of free will is a whole 'nother topic); we HAVE a soul; and we HAVE a spirit. We are made in the image of God. God the Father is the person of the Godhead who exercises power by His will; God the Son is the person of the Godhead who represents the soul; and God the Holy spirit is the person of the Godhead who represents the spirit. How could God be God without any one of these three essential elements? How could we be made in God's image and lack any one of these three essential elements? How could we live and move and have our being if we lacked any one of these three essential elements?
> 
> This is my humble understanding of the Trinity.


 
The distinction between soul and spirit in man is does not hold up to Biblical scrutiny. Kim Riddlebarger, a minister in the United Reformed Churches, has written an excellent short essay dealing with this error, "Trichotomy: Beachhead for Gnostic Influences." The ancient creeds and Reformed confessions are united in speaking of two components of human nature: body and soul (cf. the Definition of Chalcedon and the first question of the Heidelberg Catechism) Applied to Trinitarian relations, this distinction becomes even more problematic. Distinguishing the persons by reference to "will," "soul," and "spirit" appears to commit the error of dividing the substance of God prohibited by the Athanasian Creed. In other words, Scripture does not teach that each divine person is a different _part_ or _aspect_ of God. To quote the Athanasian Creed again: the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty; and yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.


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## R. Scott Clark (Nov 25, 2010)

The procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father AND the Son (hence _filioque_) does not damage the deity of the Spirit any more than the eternal begotteness of the Son damages his Deity. These are both terms to denote the personal properties that belong to the Spirit and to the Son as distinct from the Father, who is unbegotten.

The members of the Holy Trinity have always been. There never was when they were not. They have always been co-equal in their essence/being/substance. The Athanasian Creed makes this quite clear. Indeed, the Council of Nicea was convoked in order to address the heresy that the Son was like the Father in essence but not identical to the Father in essence. In other words, the point of the Nicene Creed is to assert and confess the consubstantiality of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

After Nicea the same sort of rationalism that brought into question the deity of the Son also began to question to deity and consubstantiality of the Spirit. Thus, at Constantinople (381) the creed was elaborated to assert the deity and consubstantiality (with the Father and the Son) of Spirit.

The filioque ("and the Son") was added at the Third Council of Toledo (589). This was a controversial move relative to the E. Church that rejected the "double procession" of the Spirit (from the Father and the Son). The Reformed churches all confess, however, the filioque, on biblical grounds (that the Spirit was was given to us through the Son is a signal of the personal relations within the Trinity) and on theological and pedagogical grounds. Just as the Son is eternally begotten, so the Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son. 

The catholic church (all Christians in all times and places) confesses that the Son is eternally begotten as a way of indicating that the Son has always been the Son. He didn't become the Son at any point before time or in time. The Son has always been the Son. He has never been anything other than the Son. He is always being the Son but he isn't becoming the Son. So too the Spirit has always been the Spirit. He didn't become the Spirit at any point before time or in time. He has always proceeded from the Father and the Son. The persons of the Trinity have always had the same personal relationship to each other that they have now and shall always have. To express this great mystery theologians have spoken of the _perichoresis_ that exists within the Trinity, i.e., the mutual inter-relations between the co-eternal, consubstantial, yet personally distinct members of the Trinity. 

Here is the Athanasian Creed:



> Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic [i.e., universal, Christian] faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Spirit uncreate. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three Eternals, but one Eternal. As there are not three Uncreated nor three Incomprehensibles, but one Uncreated and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords.
> 
> The Father is made of none: neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son: neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits. And in this Trinity none is before or after other; none is greater or less than another; But the whole three Persons are coeternal together, and coequal: so that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped. He, therefore, that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
> 
> ...



As to confessing the creeds (or even the Reformed catechisms and confessions) in public worship, I have reconciled myself to it on the grounds that there are two elements in worship, Word and prayer. The Word comes to us in the reading of Scripture, in the sermon, sacraments, and in confession as we summarized the Word with ecclesiastically sanctioned documents. Insofar as the creeds/confessions are just summaries of God's Word they have a place in worship. When I recite them I am affirming God's Word with his people and following the biblical pattern in doing so. This, I think, was Calvin's rationale for doing so. Others have disagreed, however, and I respect their liberty not to recite creeds/confessions in public worship.

Some resources on related questions:

Westminster Seminary California faculty

Westminster Seminary California faculty


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## CharlieJ (Nov 25, 2010)

Calvin really cleared up this idea. He says that all the persons of the trinity are autotheos (god himself) and have their essence a se ipso (from he himself). That is, the second person of the Trinity is God by virtue of his own life; he does not receive that life from the Father. He only receives his Son-ness from the Father. Same with the Spirit. The Spirit is God a se ipso, but He is the Spirit from the Father and the Son. So, the three are all three God, and that on their own. The generation and procession have to do with the personal relations. There is a kind of order, but it is economic, not ontological. That's why we confess them the same in power and glory.


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## puritan628 (Nov 25, 2010)

Mr. Peters, I am unable to quote you from my iPad, but I wanted to thank you for your response to my post and for providing the link to the article. Looking forward to reading it!


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## R. Scott Clark (Nov 26, 2010)

WCF 2:



> 3. In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost the Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father;p the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.



WCF 8.2



> The Son of God, the second person in the Trinity, being very and eternal God, of one substance and equal with the Father, did, when the fullness of time was come, take upon him man's nature,k with all the essential properties, and common infirmities thereof, yet without sin; being conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost, in the womb of the virgin Mary, of her substance. So that two whole, perfect, and distinct natures, the Godhead and the manhood, were inseparably joined together in one person, without conversion, composition, or confusion.n Which person is very God, and very man, yet one Christ, the only Mediator between God and man.



Belgic Confession 8



> In keeping with this truth and Word of God we believe in one God, who is one single essence, in whom there are three persons, really, truly, and eternally distinct according to their incommunicable properties-- namely, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Father is the cause, origin, and source of all things, visible as well as invisible.
> 
> The Son is the Word, the Wisdom, and the image of the Father.
> 
> ...


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