# Should Elders use individual giving as metric of faith?



## govols

Should / could the Elders of a church use a family / individual giving (tithe) as a barameter of their faith? This is, of course, over an amount of time?

There are a lot of things that may go into it like someone knowing roughly how much someone makes, the frequency of giving, etc.

Rough times in someone's life is taken into consideration as well.

Basically, if someone has somehow been informed that someone makes $100,00 a year but only gives $2000 in giving for the church, should that be addressed, lovingly, by an Elder?

Or if someone gives X amount and then stops giving or gives substantially less w/o going through any harsdships ...

Is giving indicitave of someone's faith? I say yes since it has been provided by the Father but what sayeth yea?


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## tcalbrecht

Not trying to change the subject, but two related questions:

1) Are there any reformed denominations that are confessionally bound to expect a tithe of their members? 

2) If you found out that a member made a million dollars, but only gave 10% to the Church, should they be counseled on their lack of generosity as a potential sign of a lack of faith?


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## ADKing

Of course, I agree that there are many factors that have to be taken into account. But in general, yes. If an individualover a period of time does not seem to be tithing (and great caution needs to be exercised in making that judgment) then I do believe it should be addressed as a pastoral concern. Of course, just to reveal my presuppositions on this one, I do believe that the tithe is still required.


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## CalvinandHodges

No


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## The Swan

Are you asking if "not tithing" is grounds for fencing from the table?

I think you have to be careful not to confuse Law and Gospel. I think "not tithing" is as relevant as having a short temper, or gossiping, or having a critical spirit, etc...

But none of these should be confused with a credible profession of faith.

Rooting for Tennessee, however, definitely brings into question ...


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## Pergamum

And is a church member required to give 100% of their tithe to their local assembly or can they give it to other causes as well?


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## Pergamum

Also, why would elders be reviewing the giving records of their congregants? And how would they gather info on how much each congregant is actually making?


Should we be asking the wives in our congregations if they are giving "it" enough to their husbands too, since that is a duty? Or do we recognize that the domain of the church stops at a certain point and people need to know where not to stick their noses?


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## BJClark

Pergamum;



> Also, why would elders be reviewing the giving records of their congregants? And how would they gather info on how much each congregant is actually making?



This was going to be my question...how would the elders KNOW if they are tithing enough of their income? 

Are they going to do as the LDS Church does and require it's members to submit their income tax returns so they know exactly how much they make and send them a Bill for their tithes? Or are they going to guess on the income of it's members and send them a bill for their tithes?

I believe as a Pastor teaches on tithing and giving, the Lord will convict the hearts of those He desires to convict to give more..


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## govols

The Swan said:


> Are you asking if "not tithing" is grounds for fencing from the table?
> 
> I think you have to be careful not to confuse Law and Gospel. I think "not tithing" is as relevant as having a short temper, or gossiping, or having a critical spirit, etc...
> 
> But none of these should be confused with a credible profession of faith.
> 
> Rooting for Tennessee, however, definitely brings into question ...



Ouuuccchhh, that hurt right thar.


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## Zenas

I am a deacon and I don't tithe because I make no money. I have no job and no income. 

Am I faithless?


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## Hippo

Zenas said:


> I am a deacon and I don't tithe because I make no money. I have no job and no income.
> 
> Am I faithless?




Surely you are tithing, 10% of zero is zero.


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## ColdSilverMoon

BJClark said:


> Pergamum;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, why would elders be reviewing the giving records of their congregants? And how would they gather info on how much each congregant is actually making?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This was going to be my question...how would the elders KNOW if they are tithing enough of their income?
> 
> Are they going to do as the LDS Church does and require it's members to submit their income tax returns so they know exactly how much they make and send them a Bill for their tithes? Or are they going to guess on the income of it's members and send them a bill for their tithes?
> 
> I believe as a Pastor teaches on tithing and giving, the Lord will convict the hearts of those He desires to convict to give more..
Click to expand...




Addressing an obvious sin (known adultery, illegal business deals, etc) is one thing, but investigating to find sin when there is no reason to suspect it is something else. 

What if a very wealthy man gave anonymously? There would be no record of his giving, but he could be giving appropriately...


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## JBaldwin

Absolutely not. For one thing, it is not the business of the elders to be looking into the financial assets or giving of the congregants. They should have NO clue what people give. Just knowing how much money a person gives sets things up for elders to show favoritism to members who give large amounts. (I've seen this many times in churches over the years.)

Also, who is to say that money is the only thing that can be tithed? What about time? What about material items? Giving money is not a measure of one's faithfulness to the body of Christ. It _can _be ONE measure. 

At different times in our lives, we have been able to give more or less to the church based on our income. Other times we felt led to give money to a particular missionary or work outside of our local congregation. In those times, we have donated large chunks of time to the church doing jobs that would have otherwise required the church to pay someone. Is that not the same as giving money?


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## jfschultz

JBaldwin said:


> Absolutely not. For one thing, it is not the business of the elders to be looking into the financial assets or giving of the congregants. They should have NO clue what people give. Just knowing how much money a person gives sets things up for elders to show favoritism to members who give large amounts. (I've seen this many times in churches over the years.)
> 
> Also, who is to say that money is the only thing that can be tithed? What about time? What about material items? Giving money is not a measure of one's faithfulness to the body of Christ. It _can _be ONE measure.
> 
> At different times in our lives, we have been able to give more or less to the church based on our income. Other times we felt led to give money to a particular missionary or work outside of our local congregation. In those times, we have donated large chunks of time to the church doing jobs that would have otherwise required the church to pay someone. Is that not the same as giving money?





The only people in a church that should know who gives what are the treasurer and bookkeeper and their lips should be sealed. (Of course deacons would probably notice if they are tasked with counting the offering and preparing the deposit.)


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## BertMulder

Actually, John, I believe the treasurer and bookkeeper have no business in that affair, when they are not also office bearers in the church.

I believe only the deacons should see how much the giving is by each member. And the deacons may, and should use that information in the exercise of their office, in various ways.

For one thing, through it they may be able to gauge if someone may need some financial help. Also, if someone is not contributing, or only contributing very little, they should investigate way. But it should never ever be used as a club.

Deacons can only come with education in this matter. If it comes to turning into a disciplinary matter, where someone is not contributing for sinful reasons, the matter should be referred to consistory. Still, no one besides the deacons would ever know how much was being contributed.

The angle I am approaching this from is our church's practice where the membership votes on an annual budget. Thus each member makes a vow, right then and there, to contribute. Realizing that is not a hard and fast amount, but the responsibility is joint and several. So don't go enquiring when someone is generally contributing, but falling a little short.

And contributing, other than the pledged amount, falls entirely in the realm of Christian liberty, and is no one's business, not the elders, not the deacons. It is a matter between the believer and God Himself.


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## Pergamum

Zenas said:


> I am a deacon and I don't tithe because I make no money. I have no job and no income.
> 
> Am I faithless?



What's 10 percent of 0?



DOH!!! Hippo beat me to it.





Bert: How would a deacon bring up the subject to a church member who is lagging behind on giving? That would make for a REALLY ackward conversation... "So.....I noticed that you only slipped a 10 in the plate this week....your kids still have shoes and you appear well fed....what's going on?" The deacon would need to be a REAL good communicator or this could get messy real fast.


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## Herald

No, no, no and no. Oh...no, no, NO, No, nO and finally, no.


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## Pergamum

How do you really feel Bill. Some of the No's were not capitalized, making your statement a bit tentative and weak.


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## Southern Presbyterian

jfschultz said:


> The only people in a church that should know who gives what are the treasurer and bookkeeper and their lips should be sealed.


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## JonathanHunt

Completely agree that Elders/Pastors should have no knowledge of giving, and the people should know that they have no knowledge of it, so that they can freely minister without hindrance, without fear or favour.

If someone isn't tithing, God will sort them out if the ministry is faithful. He sorted me out once and for all when I considered the scriptures surrounding Cain and Abel.


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## Kevin

No.

Only the deacons should know who is giving what. And only the deacon who is acting as treasurer. (in my opinion that is a job for a deacon.) 

I can not honestly think of a situation that would require the deacons to discuss the specific giving levels of the members as a normal part of the job. 

In some cases, if a person was applying for an intrest free loan (yes we did that!) to pay off debt, then we would ask the treasurer if they gave regularly and consistently. He might, if in his judgment it was relevent, tell us the amount, or mention that it was inconsistent. However those loans came with manditory budget meetings with the district deacon, so he would know the circumstances of the persons giving. Since in this case he knew of all giving & spending he could recomend (or not) the loan based on his financial counselling with the people involved.


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## Ivan

Zenas said:


> I am a deacon and I don't tithe because I make no money. I have no job and no income.
> 
> Am I faithless?



No, just poor....financially.


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## Robert Truelove

As a pastor, I address the issue of tithing (every once in while) from the pulpit. I would never make someone's giving an issue of personal pastoral council with one exception...

A candidate, potential candidate or one who already holds office (deacon or elder), would be spoken with if it appeared that over time they were failing to give at least a tithe. Ultimately, I believe a failure to tithe disqualifies a man from holding office in the church though I think great care needs to be taken to make sure a rash/incorrect judgment is not being made.


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## Civbert

govols said:


> Should / could the Elders of a church use a family / individual giving (tithe) as a barameter of their faith? This is, of course, over an amount of time?
> 
> There are a lot of things that may go into it like someone knowing roughly how much someone makes, the frequency of giving, etc.



No. You can not use tithing by itself as a barometer of faith. And I don't think you could use it with "a lot of other things". There are just to many things you'd have to know. 

However, if someone's level of giving drops, that might be grounds for concern. It would not tell you anything about his level of faith, but could indicate there is some kind of problem. The problem may be a lack of faith, or a financial problem, or a lack of commitment to that church, or simply a even a matter of being absent minded. Or it might not be a problem at all. Maybe he gave all he could for the year. 

How would you know? An elder or a brother might know if someone's given has dropped off, but unless he knows a great deal more, it would be unwise to become concerned for that reason alone. Rather, they should already know much more about the person and already be showing him Christ's love. They should already know what's going on with that person and have been pastoring him. And if so, a drop in giving might be no surprise, and any concern would be based on many other factors.

So although a weakening of faith could cause a drop in giving, a drop in giving would not necessarily indicate a weakening of faith.


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## Presbyterian Deacon

No.

Giving is a personal matter between the believer and God. It is no one's business how much one gives.

I think Christ's words are applicable here:



> Matthew 6:1-4
> Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. [2] Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. [3] But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: [4] That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.



Now, I know, this passage is not specifically about tithing to the church, but the principle is that God sees what we give--and He is the one who really matters.

The Pastor of a local church has an obligation to preach on giving when it is in the text of scripture, and the faithful expositor of God's Word will do that.

Elders are given spiritual oversight of the congregation, and it is the duty of elders to inquire into the spiritual condition of their members. But there are some things which are not their concern.

Deacons are given to the financial care of the church. Deacons are charged with "developing the grace of liberality" among the members of the congregation. And that is done by leadership and example.


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## CalvinandHodges

North Jersey Baptist said:


> No, no, no and no. Oh...no, no, NO, No, nO and finally, no.



Hi Bill:

A matter we agree in?  Amazing! 

-CH


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## DMcFadden

Wow! Brethren, America is more part of us than I realized! Where did all of this obsession with privacy come from on the PB???

Since when is sin a "private issue"? Since when is a spiritual need an issue that deserves to be kept strictly private from everyone, including the pastor?

Here was my rule when in the pastorate.

1. I did not/nor did I want to know what ANYone gave. And, I never did during my decades of service.

2. However, God charged me with responsibility of providing spiritual care for people. Part of knowing them was knowing their needs. So . ..

a. If a giver of record quit giving, my finance person would say, "Pastor, I think you might want to see how So-in-So is doing. I've noticed some drastic changes in their giving." Sometimes people quit giving out of anger or hurt feelings, sometimes out of guilt, sometimes due to financial pressures. Often times, this encouragement would be enough for a low-key conversation to surface issues that needed to be dealt with pastorally. Even when my congregation averaged 500 or so on a Sunday, nobody ever reacted badly to having me "touch base" and check in on how they were doing.

b. When we examined nominations for church office, I would always ask if anyone on the committee had a reason for disqualifying a person. They did not need to express what it was. But, this helped a lot. On the finance side, the potential names would be vetted by the finance person. "Are these folks all regular contributors to our ministry?" In my view, nobody should serve on the ruling board of the church who does not have a willingness to contribute. 

Suffering law students get a pass, primarily because we know that they will *all *become ridiculously overpaid big shots or politians.


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## CalvinandHodges

DMcFadden said:


> Wow! Brethren, America is more part of us than I realized! Where did all of this obsession with privacy come from on the PB???
> 
> Since when is sin a "private issue"? Since when is a spiritual need an issue that deserves to be kept strictly private from everyone, including the pastor?
> 
> Here was my rule when in the pastorate.
> 
> 1. I did not/nor did I want to know what ANYone gave. And, I never did during my decades of service.
> 
> 2. However, God charged me with responsibility of providing spiritual care for people. Part of knowing them was knowing their needs. So . ..
> 
> a. If a giver of record quit giving, my finance person would say, "Pastor, I think you might want to see how So-in-So is doing. I've noticed some drastic changes in their giving." Sometimes people quit giving out of anger or hurt feelings, sometimes out of guilt, sometimes due to financial pressures. Often times, this encouragement would be enough for a low-key conversation to surface issues that needed to be dealt with pastorally. Even when my congregation averaged 500 or so on a Sunday, nobody ever reacted badly to having me "touch base" and check in on how they were doing.
> 
> b. When we examined nominations for church office, I would always ask if anyone on the committee had a reason for disqualifying a person. They did not need to express what it was. But, this helped a lot. On the finance side, the potential names would be vetted by the finance person. "Are these folks all regular contributors to our ministry?" In my view, nobody should serve on the ruling board of the church who does not have a willingness to contribute.
> 
> Suffering law students get a pass, primarily because we know that they will *all *become ridiculously overpaid big shots or politians.



Hi:

Pastoral visitations should be the rule of a Reformed Pastor, and not the exception. Yet, I understand the Baptist model to be quite different from the Reformed.

Blessings,

-CH


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## ADKing

As the diversity of answers shows, I believe the real issue to this question is: is tithing a moral duty in the NT? Those who do not believe it is will obviously answer that the pastor should not counsel members on this issue. However, if one does believe it is a moral duty then the minister must be faithful to confront people who in ordinary circumstances can tithe and choose not to do so. 

This need not be a matter of scrupulously pouring over financial records any more than a minister needs to try really hard to find other moral infractions. But if it becomes obvious it should be addressed. A good way of doing this is periodically reminding people of their duty in home visitations.


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## Reformed Covenanter

Pergamum said:


> And is a church member required to give 100% of their tithe to their local assembly or can they give it to other causes as well?



That is a good question; from what I remember, Gary North says it is to be given to the church, R.J. Rushdoony says to Christian causes in general.


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## JBaldwin

I implied this in my last post, but now I am going to make it a formal question since no one has really answered it. 

Does tithing only equal money? Or can tithing include service to the church and material donations? And if that is the case, how can we measure a tithe of that? Though money is the standard currency in our society, I believe that all that we have, including our time, material possessions and money is the Lord's. 

When it comes to NT giving, I have always believed that tithing is the minimum, but I have also leaned in the direction that it means more than just money.


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## nicnap

Hi:

Pastoral visitations should be the rule of a Reformed Pastor, and not the exception. Yet, I understand the Baptist model to be quite different from the Reformed.

Blessings,

-CH 


 sorry, can't exactly work the quote thing.


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## moral necessity

govols said:


> Should / could the Elders of a church use a family / individual giving (tithe) as a barameter of their faith? This is, of course, over an amount of time?
> 
> There are a lot of things that may go into it like someone knowing roughly how much someone makes, the frequency of giving, etc.
> 
> Rough times in someone's life is taken into consideration as well.
> 
> Basically, if someone has somehow been informed that someone makes $100,00 a year but only gives $2000 in giving for the church, should that be addressed, lovingly, by an Elder?
> 
> Or if someone gives X amount and then stops giving or gives substantially less w/o going through any harsdships ...
> 
> Is giving indicitave of someone's faith? I say yes since it has been provided by the Father but what sayeth yea?



Nearly everything for a believer is technically a measure of sanctification; but faith for salvation or justification is measured only upon the dependence that one has upon the work and promise of Christ to account for them on that great day!

Blessings!


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## LadyFlynt

I have nothing to add...just had to jump in with the "Go Clemson!" comment


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## CalvinandHodges

nicnap said:


> Hi:
> 
> Pastoral visitations should be the rule of a Reformed Pastor, and not the exception. Yet, I understand the Baptist model to be quite different from the Reformed.
> 
> Blessings,
> 
> -CH
> 
> 
> sorry, can't exactly work the quote thing.



I don't get the joke - maybe you can fill me in?

Grace and Peace,

-CH


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## bookslover

As has been said, individual giving is a matter of Christian liberty, and is between the individual believer and God. Yes, the members of a congregation do have a biblical responsibility to give, but that's still between him and God. 

The last thing a church needs is for the officers to go snooping around in people's personal finances. Sinners that we all are, that's not a situation that would end well. It could be ripe for all kinds of abuse.


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## KMK

JBaldwin said:


> I implied this in my last post, but now I am going to make it a formal question since no one has really answered it.
> 
> Does tithing only equal money? Or can tithing include service to the church and material donations? And if that is the case, how can we measure a tithe of that? Though money is the standard currency in our society, I believe that all that we have, including our time, material possessions and money is the Lord's.
> 
> When it comes to NT giving, I have always believed that tithing is the minimum, but I have also leaned in the direction that it means more than just money.



By definition a 'tithe' is 10 percent of your 'increase'. If God gave you an increase of 10 chickens, then you could give a chicken and it would be a tithe. However, putting a chicken in the modern day offering basket may be placing more of a burden on the elders than it is worth. That is why most people sell the chicken and give the $$$ to the church or make some awesome chicken salad and give it to the pastor or the widow or the fatherless.

I agree with Dennis that as a shepherd the Pastor may want to check on those whose giving suddenly drops off. It may be due to a financial crisis or 'controversy' or sin. In any of these cases, the Pastor may be just the person that is able to help.

I understand the appeal of a pastor being ignorant of individual giving, but is it really biblical? The Levites knew who was giving what. In fact, it would appear that the giver would want the Levite to know that he had tithed because the act avouched that he was a part of God's people. Also, Ananias brought his offering 'and laid it at the Apostles feet'.


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## JBaldwin

> I understand the appeal of a pastor being ignorant of individual giving, but is it really biblical? The Levites knew who was giving what. In fact, it would appear that the giver would want the Levite to know that he had tithed because the act avouched that he was a part of God's people. Also, Ananias brought his offering 'and laid it at the Apostles feet'.



I completely understand your point. However, I still question why an officer in the church should have any reason to pry into the finances of an individual church member. For one thing, a simple word from a treasurer that a person's giving has dropped off, someone might want to see if they are having financial troubles, is entirely different from keeping track of what people are giving. 

In the case of Ananias and his wife, Peter made it clear that they were free to do whatever they wished with their property, and that the sin they commited was that of lying about it. They wanted to appear more spiritual in the eyes of the congregation, and that is what Peter rebuked them for.


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## Hippo

We are also in danger here of encouraging people to give just for show and to be well thought of.

1 "Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. 
2 "Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. 
Matt 6:1-4 (ESV)


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## Mushroom

Well, it appears we now have a new avenue of ministry... we can spot a spiritual or financial crisis in a brother's life today by totalling the checks we find he has placed in the offering basket! This is a wonderful thing! Imagine how hard it must have been in the olden days, when cash was the currency of the land, to have the knowledge of a man's level of giving. How could they know when a brother needed some attention? I mean, a profession of faith, attendance (we do keep attendance records, right?), involvement in the fellowship of the Church, visible behaviour, and reputation are never really enough evidence for admittance to the table, are they?


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## JBaldwin

Brad said:


> Well, it appears we now have a new avenue of ministry... we can spot a spiritual or financial crisis in a brother's life today by totalling the checks we find he has placed in the offering basket! This is a wonderful thing! Imagine how hard it must have been in the olden days, when cash was the currency of the land, to have the knowledge of a man's level of giving. How could they know when a brother needed some attention? I mean, a profession of faith, attendance (we do keep attendance records, right?), involvement in the fellowship of the Church, visible behaviour, and reputation are never really enough evidence for admittance to the table, are they?



Good point. We often give cash for that very reason.


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## Grymir

Tithing??

That Malachi verse is sooo misued. Giving of $$ is a poor indicator. How much time is someone willing to give is far better. So many just give $$ and won't speak about Jesus to others outside of church, nor will be willing to help with the church work. Those are far more important that our offerings.


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## LadyFlynt

We also prefer to give in cash only. The other reason would be that I don't want to get a "statement" at the end of the year saying what I gave and presuming I will want to claim them on my taxes (something I am against doing).


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## Zadok

I believe that we should speak of tithes and freewill offerings. 

We are all called to live sacrificial lives, and that should include money, time, energy etc. The best belongs to the Lord.

As to our financial giving being a measure of one's faith, whilst there may be an element of truth in that, we should tread with great care, because as has been indicated in previous posts we cannot determine the motivation of some in their giving. They may give generously, but for all the wrong reasons- and not because they have more faith! (Sapphira and Annanias)

I agree wholeheartedly with those who have said that it is a matter between God and the individual- the only time that office bearers need to be concerned is when there are real indications of some sin - for example someone who is quite obviously covetous etc.


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## bookslover

LadyFlynt said:


> We also prefer to give in cash only. The other reason would be that I don't want to get a "statement" at the end of the year saying what I gave and presuming I will want to claim them on my taxes (something I am against doing).



May I ask why you are against that? If God is gracious and allows such an exemption on your tax forms, I don't think it would be a sin to take advantage of it. I don't think it would be a negative reflection on your giving.


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## Pergamum

If Ceasar lets my money stretch further than that means I can give even more. Only the deacon needs to know at the church. Plus, checks are easier to handle for the poor deacon than cash.


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## DMcFadden

JBaldwin said:


> Brad said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, it appears we now have a new avenue of ministry... we can spot a spiritual or financial crisis in a brother's life today by totalling the checks we find he has placed in the offering basket! This is a wonderful thing! Imagine how hard it must have been in the olden days, when cash was the currency of the land, to have the knowledge of a man's level of giving. How could they know when a brother needed some attention? I mean, a profession of faith, attendance (we do keep attendance records, right?), involvement in the fellowship of the Church, visible behaviour, and reputation are never really enough evidence for admittance to the table, are they?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good point. We often give cash for that very reason.
Click to expand...


Brad, the sarcasm is unnecessary. As a matter of fact, some people on this forum are willing to separate and form a new denomination for reasons of fairly minor differences in belief or practice. Are you seriously telling me that not contributing financially to one's church is such a matter of privacy and indifference that it does not matter when selecting an elder or deacon? 

I never framed the issue in terms of fencing the table, but did suggest that finance is as reliable a barometer of obedience as many other things. And, yes, unresolved issues of anger at someone in the church, a gambling problem, and many other sin issues do often manifest themselves in a discontinuation of giving.

Again, remember, my comment was that I would be informed (as a pastor) IFF a person quit giving or was not giving, NOT how much they gave. And, yes, I have known people who attended regularly, taught Sunday school and boasted of "freedom in the Lord" to give nothing to the church so that they could pour it into their home improvement projects.


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## KMK

JBaldwin said:


> I understand the appeal of a pastor being ignorant of individual giving, but is it really biblical? The Levites knew who was giving what. In fact, it would appear that the giver would want the Levite to know that he had tithed because the act avouched that he was a part of God's people. Also, Ananias brought his offering 'and laid it at the Apostles feet'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I completely understand your point. However, I still question why an officer in the church should have any reason to pry into the finances of an individual church member. For one thing, a simple word from a treasurer that a person's giving has dropped off, someone might want to see if they are having financial troubles, is entirely different from keeping track of what people are giving.
> 
> In the case of Ananias and his wife, Peter made it clear that they were free to do whatever they wished with their property, and that the sin they commited was that of lying about it. They wanted to appear more spiritual in the eyes of the congregation, and that is what Peter rebuked them for.
Click to expand...


I understand Ananias' sin, what I am refering to is the fact that it was brought to the Apostle's feet and there is no indication that the _place_ where he brought it was inappropriate. The amount was inappropriate. The point I am trying to make is the idea of bringing tithes and offerings straight to the Levite or the Apostle has precedent in the Bible. 

I am not necessarily advocating such a practice, just looking for Biblical prohibitions for doing so.


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## govols

So, if you have a treasurer, of sorts, and people give using checks; the treasurer has to write / put that amount in something to send back to individual at the end of January for taxes.

Okay, let's say it is Excel that they put the information in. One page has all the information (Family Name, Amount, Dates) while another page does not contain the names but just the Amount and Dates.

Would it be okay twice a year for the Elders to review the second page (no names) to at least know if anything might be wrong (not correct word) with a Family?

If you have a family giving $10,000 a year for 2 years and then over a period of 3 months the giving drops to $100 a year, can the Elders see that second page with no names and ask if they should go to care for that family.

I am a firm believer that giving is indicative of someone's spiritual health. The Lord has provided for us, it is essentially His money, and should we not give back to our Church what is already His?

If someone stops giving or drastically slows down their giving, is that not an indication that something might be wrong spiritually for them? Just a question.

I know the Elders or anyone else for that matter should not go around asking people how much money they make and then put that into the Excel spreadsheet as Money / 10. :-> Not saying that. But trends are an indicator of something are they not? Just being able to ask them if they need help. Pride can get in the way for someone to ask for help.?


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## LadyFlynt

bookslover said:


> LadyFlynt said:
> 
> 
> 
> We also prefer to give in cash only. The other reason would be that I don't want to get a "statement" at the end of the year saying what I gave and presuming I will want to claim them on my taxes (something I am against doing).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> May I ask why you are against that? If God is gracious and allows such an exemption on your tax forms, I don't think it would be a sin to take advantage of it. I don't think it would be a negative reflection on your giving.
Click to expand...


Something about it simply bothers me.


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## Presbyterian Deacon

LadyFlynt said:


> bookslover said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LadyFlynt said:
> 
> 
> 
> We also prefer to give in cash only. The other reason would be that I don't want to get a "statement" at the end of the year saying what I gave and presuming I will want to claim them on my taxes (something I am against doing).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> May I ask why you are against that? If God is gracious and allows such an exemption on your tax forms, I don't think it would be a sin to take advantage of it. I don't think it would be a negative reflection on your giving.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Something about it simply bothers me.
Click to expand...


Render to Ceaser the things that are Ceaser's, and render to God the things that are God's. 

But I can't find anywhere that says, Get a note from God, or the church about how much you rendered, so that Ceaser will give credit for it at the end of the year.

But I do find scripture that says to give in secret.


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## Mushroom

DMcFadden said:


> JBaldwin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brad said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, it appears we now have a new avenue of ministry... we can spot a spiritual or financial crisis in a brother's life today by totalling the checks we find he has placed in the offering basket! This is a wonderful thing! Imagine how hard it must have been in the olden days, when cash was the currency of the land, to have the knowledge of a man's level of giving. How could they know when a brother needed some attention? I mean, a profession of faith, attendance (we do keep attendance records, right?), involvement in the fellowship of the Church, visible behaviour, and reputation are never really enough evidence for admittance to the table, are they?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good point. We often give cash for that very reason.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Brad, the sarcasm is unnecessary. As a matter of fact, some people on this forum are willing to separate and form a new denomination for reasons of fairly minor differences in belief or practice. Are you seriously telling me that not contributing financially to one's church is such a matter of privacy and indifference that it does not matter when selecting an elder or deacon?
> 
> I never framed the issue in terms of fencing the table, but did suggest that finance is as reliable a barometer of obedience as many other things. And, yes, unresolved issues of anger at someone in the church, a gambling problem, and many other sin issues do often manifest themselves in a discontinuation of giving.
> 
> Again, remember, my comment was that I would be informed (as a pastor) IFF a person quit giving or was not giving, NOT how much they gave. And, yes, I have known people who attended regularly, taught Sunday school and boasted of "freedom in the Lord" to give nothing to the church so that they could pour it into their home improvement projects.
Click to expand...


Dennis, I meant no offense, just pointing out that a record of how much a man gives was not as easy in the olden days, and yet they were able to determine the qualifications of officers or the need for ministry to individuals without it. Perhaps they simply asked the man about his giving. We would assume that a man nominated for office would at least have the quality of character to answer honestly, would we not?

I don't believe that it is necessary to 'preach' giving to the Church. Preach the Gospel, and giving will manifest itself among those who believe. 



> 2Co 9:6 But this I say, He that soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he that soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
> 2Co 9:7 Let each man do according as he hath purposed in his heart: not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.


There is, it seems to me, an intimation of privacy in this passage, in that each man is to purpose in his own heart in such a way as to give ungrudgingly and not out of a burdensome sense of duty, but cheerfully. What comprises cheerful giving will certainly be different from one man to the next.

I've been in Churches where tithing was preached as a duty with regularity, and the effect seemed the opposite of that desired; folks were offended and gave less. I've been in Churches where a duty to tithe was never mentioned, and yet the level of giving was high, because the Gospel was preached and believed, and the members took responsibility for the work the body was involved in.

I've also known of Churches where some officers had the idea they needed to see members' tax returns to determine their level of giving. That's nuts. What the scriptures say is for each to give cheerfully. What Ananias did was lie about the amount. It had nothing to do with the amount itself, it was his to do with what he wanted. That event was not recorded to imply that Church officers should be monitoring income and giving levels of members. I personally would be offended if an Elder came to me concerned about my spiritual condition based on information he had gleaned from the Church treasury records. It would be a sad statement that he had to find out about problems through a bean-counter's book rather than by knowing me well enough to notice trouble, and having the courage to ask me directly, and the trust to believe my answer.


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## Presbyterian Deacon

*Duty of Elders*



Brad said:


> 2Co 9:6 But this I say, He that soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he that soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
> 2Co 9:7 Let each man do according as he hath purposed in his heart: not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
> 
> 
> 
> There is, it seems to me, an intimation of privacy in this passage, in that each man is to purpose in his own heart in such a way as to give ungrudgingly and not out of a burdensome sense of duty, but cheerfully. What comprises cheerful giving will certainly be different from one man to the next.
> 
> I've been in Churches where tithing was preached as a duty with regularity, and the effect seemed the opposite of that desired; folks were offended and gave less. I've been in Churches where a duty to tithe was never mentioned, and yet the level of giving was high, because the Gospel was preached and believed, and the members took responsibility for the work the body was involved in.
> 
> I've also known of Churches where some officers had the idea they needed to see members' tax returns to determine their level of giving. That's nuts. What the scriptures say is for each to give cheerfully. What Ananias did was lie about the amount. It had nothing to do with the amount itself, it was his to do with what he wanted. That event was not recorded to imply that Church officers should be monitoring income and giving levels of members. I personally would be offended if an Elder came to me concerned about my spiritual condition based on information he had gleaned from the Church treasury records. It would be a sad statement that he had to find out about problems through a bean-counter's book rather than by knowing me well enough to notice trouble, and having the courage to ask me directly, and the trust to believe my answer.
Click to expand...




Good statement. 
I agree, an Elder should determine his church members' spiritual conditions based upon his familiarity with the members themselves, not his knowledge of their giving. But alas, shepherding and pastoral visits are often the exception rather than the rule in these days. 

Not so in days gone by:

"It is the duty of Ruling Elders to visit the members of the church and their families--to converse with them to instruct the ignorant; to confirm the wavering; to caution the unwary; to reclaim the wandering; to encourage the timid; and to excite and animate all classes to a faithful and exemplary discharge of duty..." Samuel Miller, "The Ruling Elder" (1832).

The elder who thus fulfills his duty does not need to read your checkbook to determine your walk with the Lord.


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## DMcFadden

Brad said:


> Dennis, I meant no offense, just pointing out that a record of how much a man gives was not as easy in the olden days, and yet they were able to determine the qualifications of officers or the need for ministry to individuals without it. Perhaps they simply asked the man about his giving. We would assume that a man nominated for office would at least have the quality of character to answer honestly, would we not?


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## KMK

Brad said:


> DMcFadden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JBaldwin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good point. We often give cash for that very reason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brad, the sarcasm is unnecessary. As a matter of fact, some people on this forum are willing to separate and form a new denomination for reasons of fairly minor differences in belief or practice. Are you seriously telling me that not contributing financially to one's church is such a matter of privacy and indifference that it does not matter when selecting an elder or deacon?
> 
> I never framed the issue in terms of fencing the table, but did suggest that finance is as reliable a barometer of obedience as many other things. And, yes, unresolved issues of anger at someone in the church, a gambling problem, and many other sin issues do often manifest themselves in a discontinuation of giving.
> 
> Again, remember, my comment was that I would be informed (as a pastor) IFF a person quit giving or was not giving, NOT how much they gave. And, yes, I have known people who attended regularly, taught Sunday school and boasted of "freedom in the Lord" to give nothing to the church so that they could pour it into their home improvement projects.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Dennis, I meant no offense, just pointing out that a record of how much a man gives was not as easy in the olden days, and yet they were able to determine the qualifications of officers or the need for ministry to individuals without it. Perhaps they simply asked the man about his giving. We would assume that a man nominated for office would at least have the quality of character to answer honestly, would we not?
> 
> I don't believe that it is necessary to 'preach' giving to the Church. Preach the Gospel, and giving will manifest itself among those who believe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2Co 9:6 But this I say, He that soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he that soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
> 2Co 9:7 Let each man do according as he hath purposed in his heart: not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is, it seems to me, an intimation of privacy in this passage, in that each man is to purpose in his own heart in such a way as to give ungrudgingly and not out of a burdensome sense of duty, but cheerfully. What comprises cheerful giving will certainly be different from one man to the next.
> 
> I've been in Churches where tithing was preached as a duty with regularity, and the effect seemed the opposite of that desired; folks were offended and gave less. I've been in Churches where a duty to tithe was never mentioned, and yet the level of giving was high, because the Gospel was preached and believed, and the members took responsibility for the work the body was involved in.
> 
> I've also known of Churches where some officers had the idea they needed to see members' tax returns to determine their level of giving. That's nuts. What the scriptures say is for each to give cheerfully. What Ananias did was lie about the amount. It had nothing to do with the amount itself, it was his to do with what he wanted. That event was not recorded to imply that Church officers should be monitoring income and giving levels of members. I personally would be offended if an Elder came to me concerned about my spiritual condition based on information he had gleaned from the Church treasury records. It would be a sad statement that he had to find out about problems through a bean-counter's book rather than by knowing me well enough to notice trouble, and having the courage to ask me directly, and the trust to believe my answer.
Click to expand...


Thank you for these thoughts, Brad.

I agree that a preacher should not harp on tithing and giving. As a preacher I dread giving those messages. But at the same time, if I am going to preach God's Word in entirety, I am going to have to speak about it at some point. Honestly, I wish someone had taught me about tithing earlier in my life. 

Here's a question for everyone. Should a pastor approach a sheep who has stopped attending church? Should a pastor approach a sheep who has stopped partaking of the bread and the cup? Why shouldn't the pastor approach a sheep whose giving has suddenly dropped off?

A pastor is a servant, not a lord. He can only serve you as much as you allow him. If you do not allow the pastor to hold you accountable with your giving then he can't. Just like if you do not allow him to hold you accountable for your attendance he can't. But he can be a valuable asset to anyone who wants to be held accountable for their spiritual duties.


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