# And what is it that you do, dear?"



## BJClark

I got this in my e-mail and thought I'd share..

From Marks Musings

Christian author and speaker Tony Campolo tells a story from the days when his wife, Peggy, was at home full-time with their children.

When someone would ask, "And what is it that you do, dear?" Peggy would reply, "I am socializing two homo sapiens into the dominant values of the Judeo-Christian tradition in order that they might be instruments for the transformation of the social order into the kind of eschatological utopia that God willed from the beginning of creation."

Then Peggy would ask the other person, "And what do you do?"


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## asc

the end goal of godly child-rearing is to create "instruments for the transformation of the social order"?


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## PuritanCovenanter

asc said:


> the end goal of godly child-rearing is to create "instruments for the transformation of the social order"?



I think it would be better served if you finished the quote... The implication is that, we the body of Christ, end up with God in Heaven. 

She used the word eschatological. I bet that would blow some minds. LOL

Campolo isn't the most astute theologian but I understand that his wife was proving that motherhood was a high calling. One that has eternal significance over many other things.


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## satz

Is that a true story? If so its seems a rather snide and sarcastric response. Unless the person asking the question was already doing so in a mocking way, I can't see how that was an appropriate response.


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## DMcFadden

BJClark said:


> I got this in my e-mail and thought I'd share..
> 
> From Marks Musings
> 
> Christian author and speaker Tony Campolo tells a story from the days when his wife, Peggy, was at home full-time with their children.
> 
> When someone would ask, "And what is it that you do, dear?" Peggy would reply, "I am socializing two homo sapiens into the dominant values of the Judeo-Christian tradition in order that they might be instruments for the transformation of the social order into the kind of eschatological utopia that God willed from the beginning of creation."
> 
> Then Peggy would ask the other person, "And what do you do?"



First a quibble with the "hero" of your story, then a more substantive agreement with it.

Considering that Peggy is one of the BIGGEST (and most vocal) boosters of gay ordination and gay marriage in the ABCUSA and that Bart is one of her homo sapiens that she socialized to become "instruments for the transformation of the social order," I would say that she did a VERY thorough job of replicating herself in her son by means of her role as mom.  Bart has become so controversial on any number of social and doctrinal issues, that more than a couple of Christian colleges have banned him from chapel (a few months ago, while visiting in my office, one college president told me that he would not allow Bart back in their chapel either, due to his extreme views on salvation). The fellow has certainly inherited his dad's iconoclasm and his mother's quixotic passion for social "justice" as they define it. A few years ago when I attended Peggy's home church (she walked out the door chatting amiably with the wife of the then head of the ABCUSA at the end of the service), the sermon that day was preached by a lesbian seminary prof who advocated acceptance of homosexuality, the children's sermon promoted "tolerant diversity" in matters of sexuality, the book table in the foyer had a couple of dozen pro-gay books, the congregational prayer time was replete with references to "us vs. them" on the homosexual issue in the ABC, and several same sex couples sat with their arms around each other . . . hmmmmmmm.

On the larger issue, I am so happy that three of my four grandchildren are being reared in a home where my daughter-in-law devotes herself to "socializing" her three boys on a full time basis! Indeed, there is hardly a more important role to aspire to fulfill! I wish that my other grandson had the benefit of a stay at home mom. Thanks, Bobbi, for reminding us of this sometimes unpopular calling.


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## OPC'n

Good one, but stay away from Tony Campolo and his wife's teachings....bad news!


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## asc

PuritanCovenanter said:


> asc said:
> 
> 
> 
> the end goal of godly child-rearing is to create "instruments for the transformation of the social order"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it would be better served if you finished the quote... The implication is that, we the body of Christ, end up with God in Heaven.
> 
> She used the word eschatological. I bet that would blow some minds. LOL
Click to expand...


"transformation of the social order into the kind of eschatological utopia that God willed from the beginning of creation."

Perhaps I misunderstand, but how does your child rearing for social transformation create a new heaven? And are you sure this is our goal in child-rearing? It seems more liberal church / post-mill thinking to me and not talking about Christ's return.

Aside from my questions on its theology, i think it's a comment of someone who's insecure about what about her calling is.


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## DMcFadden

Actually, it was kindof cute and in-your-face to the typical condescending attitudes expressed towards stay at home moms.

My beef was with the fact that Tony, Peggy, and at least one of their kids are amazingly talented and extremely controversial for things I personally do not agree with very much.


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## LadyFlynt

satz said:


> Is that a true story? If so its seems a rather snide and sarcastric response. Unless the person asking the question was already doing so in a mocking way, I can't see how that was an appropriate response.



When SAHMs are oft times treated as "less than" for staying at home and raising their children, the "I've abc and xyz...and what do you do?" is condescending.

If you're a SAHM with a degree, you are treated like you've abandoned some great deed for society. If you're a SAHM without a degree, then you are just an ignorant soul that must not understand the importance of education and birth control. SAHMs can't win.


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## Ex Nihilo

LadyFlynt said:


> satz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is that a true story? If so its seems a rather snide and sarcastric response. Unless the person asking the question was already doing so in a mocking way, I can't see how that was an appropriate response.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When SAHMs are oft times treated as "less than" for staying at home and raising their children, the "I've abc and xyz...and what do you do?" is condescending.
Click to expand...


I can see how it could be, but I've asked this question before, in the course of small talk, without knowing that the woman was a stay-at-home mom. Do you pick up on the condescension more in the response to your saying you are an SAHM? I certainly would never want to appear at all condescending.


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## jwithnell

I had kind of the opposite reaction last year -- I'm a stay-at-home Mom but get called out west to work on wildfires in the summer. Last year, while my working group made introductions, I noticed people claiming to work on such-and-such commission, and this and that success story. Well I have a lot of fire quals, but when they got to me, I just said, "I'm a Mommy." Nuff said ...


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## LadyFlynt

Ex Nihilo said:


> LadyFlynt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> satz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is that a true story? If so its seems a rather snide and sarcastric response. Unless the person asking the question was already doing so in a mocking way, I can't see how that was an appropriate response.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When SAHMs are oft times treated as "less than" for staying at home and raising their children, the "I've abc and xyz...and what do you do?" is condescending.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can see how it could be, but I've asked this question before, in the course of small talk, without knowing that the woman was a stay-at-home mom. Do you pick up on the condescension more in the response to your saying you are an SAHM? I certainly would never want to appear at all condescending.
Click to expand...


It depends on the situation. The question itself though is presumptuous. It presumes the woman "work" in the sense that she is not home. Unfortunately, there is something called the "mommy wars". SAHM vs WOHM, nursing vs formula, homeschooling vs public school, etc, etc. If a bunch of women are together, they all start talking about their careers, things can become abrasive (even if nothing is said, just attitudes) when the one lone SAHM is asked, "and what do you do, dear?" (and vise versa)

Instead, if you know she is married and/or has children, it would be kinder to ask if she has a career outside the home or if she stays home with her children.


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## AThornquist

I'm not sure how I feel about Peggy's statement. I guess it all depends on the wider context, you know? If it was in response to condescension, I think it made a point. I do know that the incredible impact of SAHMs is so overlooked and, in fact, disparaged (as mentioned already). Some women have an opposite reaction than Peggy's, though. I was making small talk with a woman at church and asked what she did for a living and she said that she is "just a mom." JUST a mom?! That is one of the most giving and self-sacrificing jobs a woman can have! THANK YOU, stay-at-home-moms! 
Unfortunately my mother wasn't (and isn't) a SAHM, but Lord willing, my wife will be one. I _will not_ neglect thanking her for it in my expressions of love.


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## DonP

I think it is great for Sahms to say I am a missionary raising children for the King. 

But really I know so many women even non-Christians who wish they could be SAHMs and they feel like you are real lucky if you get to be one and have your husband support you so you don't have to work. 

I think it is a glorious honor and provision of the Lord and women should never feel judged over it rather come back with confident excitement. 
Oh currently the Lord has blessed my husband so much I get to stay home and work there for now. And no need ot think it prideful to add if warranted, I did get a degree in .... but I am so glad not to have to be working outside the home now.


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## BJClark

as a sahm, I've had both responses, for many years it mostly to the negative, but I soon came to realize that the negative responses were more out of envy..many of the women wished they could stay home with their kids, but didn't..not that they couldn't, they just didn't because their priorities were different..the worldly things they 'wanted' didn't afford them to stay home--and that's what I would comment on..

How important is it have all your kids in five different activities all year long? how important is it that your kids have all the latest electronic games and cell phones? How important is having that brand new vehicle (with payment), as opposed to your previous one that was paid off and still in great condition? Did they really need to move into that 'bigger' house, with a much higher payment? 

I let them know if they just made a few changes they really could afford to stay home; if that's what they wanted, some of them responded they would "be bored" if they stayed home, and what would they do if their kids weren't in ALL those activities, and I knew for them...it just wasn't important, and I learned to take their comments about my staying home with a grain of salt..

I've had a few friends recently comment on how they wish they could stay home, and when I started making suggestions on things they could cut back on, and they started thinking about their own childhoods and how they didn't 'have' all the things their kids have and how they weren't in all the activities their kids were in, and remember how happy they were..and remembering how they always had time to do other fun things, that they really enjoyed. And they realized that if they didn't work they could go on vacation any time, and not have to worry about both them and their husbands trying to get time off from work at the same time..basically they wouldn't have so many restrictions on their time..so now they are in the process of working towards that goal of staying home..


edit to add:

And as far as Tony Campolo, I don't even know who he or his wife are.. I got the comment in my e-mail--and thought I'd share it..


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## satz

LadyFlynt said:


> satz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is that a true story? If so its seems a rather snide and sarcastric response. Unless the person asking the question was already doing so in a mocking way, I can't see how that was an appropriate response.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When SAHMs are oft times treated as "less than" for staying at home and raising their children, the "I've abc and xyz...and what do you do?" is condescending.
> 
> If you're a SAHM with a degree, you are treated like you've abandoned some great deed for society. If you're a SAHM without a degree, then you are just an ignorant soul that must not understand the importance of education and birth control. SAHMs can't win.
Click to expand...


I agree with your assessment of society, but simply because someone asks what you do does not make that condescending, whether they first mention their own job or not.

The way SAHMs are looked down on in society today is wrong, but that does not give christian people the right to go around with massive chips on their shoulders, being hypersensitive and rewarding a simple question with sarcasm and rudeness. 

Even if many other people are condescending, there is absolutely no reason why a christian should just assume this new questioner is doing the same - unless we are supposed to infer that just from the word "dear". 

If a woman feels she is being challenged, why not respond like Bobbi described in her last post? Graciousness is also part of what makes a great woman. There is no need to be obnoxious unless the questioner has _clearly_ shown herself to be a scorner.


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## Theognome

Being a smart-alek, I often answer in the following manner-

Q. "What do you do?"
A. "I breathe for a living. Really, I do. It's an important task- I have to do my job 24/7 without a break and no vacation time."


Theognome


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## ChariotsofFire

satz said:


> LadyFlynt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> satz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is that a true story? If so its seems a rather snide and sarcastric response. Unless the person asking the question was already doing so in a mocking way, I can't see how that was an appropriate response.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When SAHMs are oft times treated as "less than" for staying at home and raising their children, the "I've abc and xyz...and what do you do?" is condescending.
> 
> If you're a SAHM with a degree, you are treated like you've abandoned some great deed for society. If you're a SAHM without a degree, then you are just an ignorant soul that must not understand the importance of education and birth control. SAHMs can't win.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree with your assessment of society, but simply because someone asks what you do does not make that condescending, whether they first mention their own job or not.
> 
> The way SAHMs are looked down on in society today is wrong, but that does not give christian people the right to go around with massive chips on their shoulders, being hypersensitive and rewarding a simple question with sarcasm and rudeness.
> 
> Even if many other people are condescending, there is absolutely no reason why a christian should just assume this new questioner is doing the same - unless we are supposed to infer that just from the word "dear".
> 
> If a woman feels she is being challenged, why not respond like Bobbi described in her last post? Graciousness is also part of what makes a great woman. There is no need to be obnoxious unless the questioner has _clearly_ shown herself to be a scorner.
Click to expand...


I whole-heartedly agree that a gracious response is far better. Even if the person has clearly shown herself to be a scorner, it would be Christ-like to "heap burning coals on her head". 


Romans 12:19-21
19Beloved,(A) never avenge yourselves, but leave it[a] to the wrath of God, for it is written,(B) "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20To the contrary,(C) "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head." *21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good*.

1 Thessalonians 5:14-16 (English Standard Version)
14And we urge you, brothers, admonish(A) the idle,[a](B) encourage the fainthearted,(C) help the weak,(D) be patient with them all. *15See that(E) no one repays anyone evil for evil*, but always(F) seek to do good to one another and to everyone. 16(G) Rejoice always,


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## a mere housewife

Bobbi, that's an enjoyable way to react! 

I do think it's important to be pleasant, happy, and graceful when responding to that sort of question: I've come to recognize that if I don't feel intimidated or demeaned by other womens' work and qualifications, they won't be demeaning -- certainly not openly -- of 'what I do'. More importantly I think my happiness doing it, and my lack of feeling a need to compete with them is best thing I could convey: so many women are swallowing the lie that what we do in the sphere of men determines our worth -- there's no rest in believing that; and one can't help them fight it by being intimidated or easily demeaned or trying to look better than them on their own terms etc.

I think it's harder for moms though, as Colleen points out: I think the dynamic re: people being pleasant if you are may be different if one has children. Some of the rudest things I've ever heard have been said to perfectly pleasant mothers in passing at grocery stores, etc. For some reason some career women assume neglect and all sorts of ironic things if they see a mom who has more than two children and stays at home with her kids.


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## calgal

Heidi to be fair some moms are cruel to mothers with less than "x" children (and nevermind the "oh you DON'T HAVE KIDS? You will find it hard to make friends here!" comment from a woman at church: gee now why do I distrust women at church again? Oh yeah! that's it!) and will exclude them while making assumptions about their status as working mothers or worse "selfish childless couples".  It is a shame women cannot simply BE sisters in Christ and accept each other (I am guilty of this too) and not have to be so competitive and cutesy.


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## PuritanCovenanter

asc said:


> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> asc said:
> 
> 
> 
> the end goal of godly child-rearing is to create "instruments for the transformation of the social order"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it would be better served if you finished the quote... The implication is that, we the body of Christ, end up with God in Heaven.
> 
> She used the word eschatological. I bet that would blow some minds. LOL
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "transformation of the social order into the kind of eschatological utopia that God willed from the beginning of creation."
> 
> Perhaps I misunderstand, but how does your child rearing for social transformation create a new heaven? And are you sure this is our goal in child-rearing? It seems more liberal church / post-mill thinking to me and not talking about Christ's return.
> 
> Aside from my questions on its theology, i think it's a comment of someone who's insecure about what about her calling is.
Click to expand...


I recant after reading some of the posts.....


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## BJClark

calgal;



> Heidi to be fair some moms are cruel to mothers with less than "x" children (and nevermind the "oh you DON'T HAVE KIDS? You will find it hard to make friends here!" comment from a woman at church: gee now why do I distrust women at church again? Oh yeah! that's it!) and will exclude them while making assumptions about their status as working mothers or worse "selfish childless couples".  It is a shame women cannot simply BE sisters in Christ and accept each other (I am guilty of this too) and not have to be so competitive and cutesy.



I agree, some mom's can be just as mean spirited against women who do not have children. And for those who by God's plan has not opened their womb it can be even more heart wrenching to hear such comments.

May God give us all wisdom before we open our mouths..


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## Montanablue

I completely support stay at home moms, and I regularly ask people (both men and women) "Oh, and what do you do?" when I first meet them. I remember people asking my own mother this quite often, and her response was a simple "I stay at home with my kids," and then later "I homeschool my kids." If anyone responded to me with such a snarky response, I think I would be a little hurt. I think the "What do you do?" question is often (usually?) asked out of curiosity or a impulse to get to know someone better. (At least, that's why I ask).

Also, on the flip side, I'm an unmarried working girl, and I've definitely had people in churches make snide remarks about my single status and my love of my job. No matter which way it goes, I really think snide sarcasm is unbiblical. Even if you have a legitimate problem with someone's actions or with their manner towards you, I don't think sarcasm is an appropriate or gracious response.


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## a mere housewife

calgal said:


> Heidi to be fair some moms are cruel to mothers with less than "x" children (and nevermind the "oh you DON'T HAVE KIDS? You will find it hard to make friends here!" comment from a woman at church: gee now why do I distrust women at church again? Oh yeah! that's it!) and will exclude them while making assumptions about their status as working mothers or worse "selfish childless couples".  It is a shame women cannot simply BE sisters in Christ and accept each other (I am guilty of this too) and not have to be so competitive and cutesy.



Absolutely, Gail. Measuring ourselves against each other is always a mistake; and can only hurt us and others. It's very sad to see that in the church where God's love and acceptance of us in Christ, and a trust in His providences in each of our lives to bring us to an expected end, should make 'one-upping' unnecessary.

Though I have been blessed to know many beautiful moms who would never mean to say anything unkind, I don't have children either; and I understand. I'm sorry, sincerely, for how that must have hurt.

PS. Just to note that I intentionally said 'some' career moms think such things to avoid any implication that all working ladies think in that way of others! I know sometimes ladies who work to be a help to their husbands and families get classed in with all the feminists in some circles and I don't believe that approach is valid: my own mother worked for years, and it was part of her daily sacrificial love for us. And of course, even among many who are feminists, there is more common grace than to think such things of other women!


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## Pergamum

PuritanCovenanter said:


> asc said:
> 
> 
> 
> the end goal of godly child-rearing is to create "instruments for the transformation of the social order"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it would be better served if you finished the quote... The implication is that, we the body of Christ, end up with God in Heaven.
> 
> She used the word eschatological. I bet that would blow some minds. LOL
> 
> Campolo isn't the most astute theologian but I understand that his wife was proving that motherhood was a high calling. One that has eternal significance over many other things.
Click to expand...


Ha, yes, most people know words that are scatological but few know words that are eschatological!


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