# Carl Trueman: Reformed Church Culture and Women



## SRoper (May 15, 2007)

I saw a link to this blog post on the Riddleblog.

Reformed Church Culture and Women

I wanted to know what you guys thought. I have to admit it made me kind of depressed. I wonder if my expectations for marriage are too great--I certainly don't want a wife that is "crushed and dispirited."


----------



## toddpedlar (May 15, 2007)

SRoper said:


> I saw a link to this blog post on the Riddleblog.
> 
> Reformed Church Culture and Women
> 
> I wanted to know what you guys thought. I have to admit it made me kind of depressed. I wonder if my expectations for marriage are too great--I certainly don't want a wife that is "crushed and dispirited."



Pardon my being blunt, but on this point, Trueman is being an absolute fool. My wife has written an entry about this on her blog, and the article by Trueman is being much bandied about in cyberspace.


----------



## VictorBravo (May 15, 2007)

SRoper said:


> I saw a link to this blog post on the Riddleblog.
> 
> Reformed Church Culture and Women
> 
> I wanted to know what you guys thought. I have to admit it made me kind of depressed. I wonder if my expectations for marriage are too great--I certainly don't want a wife that is "crushed and dispirited."



Wow. I haven't seen much of that in my circles, but if it is as prevalent as he says, it is alarming.

The husband is failing in these situtations. His first domestic responsibility is for his wife's well being. That means keeping a keen eye on what is going on, observing how your wife is pressured, and, most important, dialoging.

I'm first to admit I'm often clueless about what stresses my wife. That makes it all the more important to affirmatively understand it.

As for the culture, I think it is proper to be iconoclastic regarding a culture that makes unreasonable demands (or perceived demands). There is nothing in Scripture the prohibits a man from washing the dishes or making the bed, doing the laundry, whatever, particularly when his wife is worn out.

My wife is a Proverbs 31 woman. She often thinks she should do more. It's my job to encourage her in her talents, but even more important, to encourage her to pace herself and back her up when she wants to say "no" to excessive demands. 

Don't be depressed. It's a lifetime job, but it can be done well. But only by the grace of God and edification through mutual worship, at home and at church.


----------



## RamistThomist (May 15, 2007)

toddpedlar said:


> Pardon my being blunt, but on this point, Trueman is being an absolute fool. My wife has written an entry about this on her blog, and the article by Trueman is being much bandied about in cyberspace.



Ditto. Only his blog entry on Rushdoony denying the Holocaust is worse than this.


----------



## VirginiaHuguenot (May 15, 2007)

toddpedlar said:


> Pardon my being blunt, but on this point, Trueman is being an absolute fool. My wife has written an entry about this on her blog, and the article by Trueman is being much bandied about in cyberspace.


----------



## Contra_Mundum (May 15, 2007)

If everyone agrees with you all the time, is that a _good_ thing, or a bad thing?

I seriously doubt if CT is much moved by any of the reactions to his challenging the "received truth" of the day, whether its on RJR or on the ladies.

When an outsider brings his perspective on our habits, it might do us well to at least listen respectfully, even if he doesn't really change our minds. Generally, no matter where we're from we tend to sanctify our positions on everything, without considering how much we are influenced by our culture--whether that's a "positive" influence or a "negative" one. And because of America's cultural dominance in the world, we are used to not being challenged, and tend to get defensive if anyone questions us. Our "Christian" positions are just as set in stone as our politics.

Does anyone think that there is ZERO chance that many Reformed-wives/mothers are not overburdened? Did CT assert that *most* of them are silently sufferring? Isn't it true that there are churches where, if you DON'T homeschool, DON'T vote Repbulican, and DON'T xyz, then you are viewed as "out of step" with the Christian community?

Welcome to cookie-cutter, "outsider" Reformed-Christianity--just as PC as cookie-cutter conformity among the cultural "insiders."


----------



## jenney (May 15, 2007)

This sort of "crushed and dispirited" business is so worldly, it sickens me. 

I once received hate mail from "Christian" women on another forum when I suggested that "me time" might not be the providence of God for all women. I even suggested that saying, "I'm a better mom if I get my Starbucks time with the gals" is unbiblical. These women were in an uproar. I was accused of legalism. I was accused of taking food from a starving man. But the closest someone could come to Biblical support for "me time" was Christ going to pray alone. I agree that we need private time with Christ to seek Him in prayer and the Word, but that is a far cry from hanging with the chix at the local scrapbook store. Nothing wrong with starbucks and nothing wrong with scrapbooking. It's when we call them "needs" that I wince. I really can't see the Lord saying, "you know, I'll be a better Savior if the disciples and I get out a few times a week for recreation without all you needy crowds!" This seems to be the same message: women serving others selflessly is mean and oppressive and women are too weak to do it because God isn't faithful to strengthen them with joy.

When women are in need of encouragement, where are these "omnicompetent" Christian women? Shouldn't they be teaching the younger (or needier) women to press on and not grow weary of well-doing? I have met so many women who are tired and overwhelmed because they need help, and when we work together on their lives as a whole a lot of things come to light: maybe lack of prayer and trust in Providence, maybe trying to do too much, maybe disorganization, laziness or lack of diligence, maybe false ideas of homeschooling being all sweetness and light. But we can often find root causes of the frustration and exhaustion and I've never known the cause to be " too high expectations" in the church.

Don't be discouraged, SRoper. Lots of women have found God to be faithful to give them the grace they need to meet the demands He has given them. When you look for a wife, look at the single ladies you see serving others without the sad countenance (see Matt 6:16). These are the women who don't expect a medal of honor (in this life) for doing their duty to their Lord.

(and there _are_ ways a husband can help. I don't mean housework, either! I mean appreciating her. Expecting the children to respect her, love her, do their chores, thank her, etc. Making sure she has time daily for seeking the Lord on her knees and especially on the Lord's Day. Praying for her daily. Praying _with_ her. that sort of thing.)


----------



## Archlute (May 15, 2007)

My wife has actually been more burdened by the lack of support for homeschooling within the Reformed churches that we have attended than by the actual task itself. Attitudes like Trueman's sicken her, to be frank, and do absolutely nothing to resolve any perceived problem. If people like Trueman were so concerned about the situation as they see it, they would be spending their time assisting those families within their church instead of playing Internet pastor. 

While I like reading his thoughts regarding the current theological silliness that is out there in Reformed land (you have to admit that he has an admirable wit and occasional insight), I really disapprove of his attempts to use his blog as a pulpit in pastoral matters, and I find that his seriousness and maturity in addressing these issues is not often up to the task. It is much easier (and less helpful) to be satirical on the Internet, than it is to be truly pastoral, and CT too often fails in this area.

I admire his scholarship, but he should stick to that calling, and leave the pastoral counsel up to the ministers of the churches.


----------



## RamistThomist (May 15, 2007)

Archlute said:


> My wife has actually been more burdened by the lack of support for homeschooling within the Reformed churches that we have attended than by the actual task itself. Attitudes like Trueman's sicken her, to be frank, and do absolutely nothing to resolve any perceived problem. If people like Trueman were so concerned about the situation as they see it, they would be spending their time assisting those families within their church instead of playing Internet pastor.
> 
> While I like reading his thoughts regarding the current theological silliness that is out there in Reformed land (you have to admit that he has an admirable wit and occasional insight), I really disapprove of his attempts to use his blog as a pulpit in pastoral matters, and I find that his seriousness and maturity in addressing these issues is not often up to the task. It is much easier (and less helpful) to be satirical on the Internet, than it is to be truly pastoral, and CT too often fails in this area.
> 
> I admire his scholarship, but he should stick to that calling, and leave the pastoral counsel up to the ministers of the churches.



Ditto, he is good on John Owen (I even have a book by him) and historical theology, but stuff like this and his hatchet job on Rushdoony is hitting waaaay below the belt. Sure he could be excused by saying "not everyone is right all the time" (not that anybody applies that consistently) but stuff like this makes him lose credibility.

His piece on Rushdoony, of which Trueman was thoroughly rebutted, was along the lines of "I heard he denies the holocaust and is probably a racist" (he used sterner words) and then he found the "alleged" quotations later when pressed for it.


----------



## jolivetti (May 16, 2007)

For what it's worth, I read Trueman's post last week and thought it was right on. I'm not sure I understand the frustration - he's not slinging tomatoes at every homeschooling mom, especially those who have a great vision for it. If you're interested, there's been a good discussion around Trueman's post and this issue at my blog recently.


----------



## R. Scott Clark (May 16, 2007)

We home-schooled our children (though they took some French at the local community college) and we haven't seen much of the phenomenon that Carl describes connected to home-schooling --perhaps because we're typically isolated home-schoolers or because we're too close to see the forest?-- I believe it exists because I saw it before home-schooling became a major movement and I've seen it in connection with other aspects of conservative religious life.

Based upon my experience I would say that template for femininity tends to reside in fundamentalist neighborhoods. In my experience it often has less to do with Scripture and our confession than it does with male insecurity. Men find their self-image in having the "perfect" wife. Did anyone see the account of Mormon womanhood in the recent PBS documentary? Yikes! Can you say "Stepford Wives"? I think I believe in de-programming. 

I agree with Bruce when he says that we have a duty to try to transcend our culture and not to become captive to it. That's very difficult to do (how does an American stop being an American? I had no idea of the number of purely cultural assumptions I made about until we lived overseas. Like sanctity, we will never achieve perfection (transcending our culture) in this life.

American fundamentalists and evangelicals tend to be more closely connected to the culture than confessionalist types. The latter have a lever against the culture because we are tied to a theology, piety, and practice that is not rooted in the USA or in modernity but belongs to another time and place.

American religion (revivalism, fundamentalism, or liberalism) is largely non-confessional and either is accommodating the culture or formed by a reaction to it. In any case it is determined largely by it's setting.

One of the benefits of the two-kingdoms view is that our theology, piety, and practice can be distinguished from the culture because cult (worship, church) _isn't_ culture. In pietist forms of transformationalism (left wing tranformationalism) everything is re-described in terms of cult. In RWT (e.g., theonomy and reconstructionism) everything is re-described in terms of culture. In either case cultural acts (hair, dress, cultural expectations) become cultic either by being baptized (lwt) or by becoming sublimated to the goal of cultural transformation (rwt).


----------



## SRoper (May 17, 2007)

It's interesting to see the wide range of responses to this post. I wonder if part of it is how charitably we read Trueman's words. When I first read it, I thought he was claiming that homeschooling was a burden on mothers. I've often wondered about this. It seems that mothers had enough to do before the homeschooling movement, and now we've given them an additional task. However, I now understand him to mean that some women aren't well suited to homeschooling, and husbands should be sensitive to that. Some here might still be upset and find this equivalent to saying that some parents aren't well suited to disciplining their children, but I think that is a different category.

Thanks for the responses and the encouragement.


----------



## Puritan Sailor (May 17, 2007)

I think Truman is correct. I've seen the pressure personally.


----------



## Theoretical (May 17, 2007)

SRoper said:


> It's interesting to see the wide range of responses to this post. I wonder if part of it is how charitably we read Trueman's words. When I first read it, I thought he was claiming that homeschooling was a burden on mothers. I've often wondered about this. It seems that mothers had enough to do before the homeschooling movement, and now we've given them an additional task. However, I now understand him to mean that some women aren't well suited to homeschooling, and husbands should be sensitive to that. Some here might still be upset and find this equivalent to saying that some parents aren't well suited to disciplining their children, but I think that is a different category.
> 
> Thanks for the responses and the encouragement.


If my future wife isn't well-suited to homeschooling our kids, I'll evaluate our options, with perhaps a correspondence school like the 1/2 week Coram Deo classical academy/parental education approach being something I might undertake.

I am even willing to homeschool my kids 100% if it is ultimately necessary. There's certainly plenty of things I'm not well-suited to doing, and if my wife's not suited to those things, then so be it. Ditto if there's some part to taking care of the home in particular. I'm called to love and serve my wife before my own interests, and I don't see having to do some of these things as reducing or harming my manliness as a husband.

I know how to cook, clean, do laundry, and all of that jazz, and providence had it that I had to take on some or all of those roles at a time when my wife was in distress, then so be it. My prayer would be that I'd have the strength to do them well and help my wife through the tough times and through the lighter ones.


----------



## RamistThomist (May 17, 2007)

There is a good book out there written by a home school father on how fathers can help home school moms. I forgot what its called.

I would probably have read Trueman more charitably if he hadn't done the hatchet job on Rushdoony.


----------



## RamistThomist (May 17, 2007)

Help I am Married to a Homeschooling Mom


----------



## MW (May 17, 2007)

Well suited? Becoming a parent means relinquishing personal desire for the sake of protecting and nurturing another. Parents who are not willing to lay down their life for their children are not "well suited" to parenthood. I am afraid modern Christian leaders have drunk too deeply at the well of "the good life" philosophy. The Christian life is one of service and a servant does not get to choose what he can and can't do.


----------



## VictorBravo (May 17, 2007)

armourbearer said:


> Well suited? Becoming a parent means relinquishing personal desire for the sake of protecting and nurturing another. Parents who are not willing to lay down their life for their children are not "well suited" to parenthood. I am afraid modern Christian leaders have drunk too deeply at the well of "the good life" philosophy. The Christian life is one of service and a servant does not get to choose what he can and can't do.



I agree completely, but that does not detract from the notion of looking out for your wife. I'm not saying that is your point, but I'd like to clarify my position that the husband's responsibility is to make sure his wife is not pressed too hard. Sometimes infirmity overtakes and, despite the best desires, overwhelms. We are commanded to watch out for that.


----------



## RamistThomist (May 17, 2007)

victorbravo said:


> I agree completely, but that does not detract from the notion of looking out for your wife. I'm not saying that is your point, but I'd like to clarify my position that the husband's responsibility is to make sure his wife is not pressed too hard. Sometimes infirmity overtakes and, despite the best desires, overwhelms. We are commanded to watch out for that.



True. That's why I linked the book above. It is a pro-homeschool book that is quite realistic about the difficulties. It uses harsh words for those who do not help their wives and offers practical guidelines to do so.


----------



## MW (May 17, 2007)

victorbravo said:


> I agree completely, but that does not detract from the notion of looking out for your wife. I'm not saying that is your point, but I'd like to clarify my position that the husband's responsibility is to make sure his wife is not pressed too hard. Sometimes infirmity overtakes and, despite the best desires, overwhelms. We are commanded to watch out for that.



Very true. Most of the problems are not the result of homeschooling per se, but are due to the pressure to keep up to speed with modern curricula expectations.


----------



## Theoretical (May 17, 2007)

armourbearer said:


> Well suited? Becoming a parent means relinquishing personal desire for the sake of protecting and nurturing another. Parents who are not willing to lay down their life for their children are not "well suited" to parenthood. I am afraid modern Christian leaders have drunk too deeply at the well of "the good life" philosophy. The Christian life is one of service and a servant does not get to choose what he can and can't do.


For reference - well-suited was probably a pretty bad word choice.

For homeschooling - Well-suitedness issues might mean severe dyslexia or something of that sort where any work with written materials is out - if that were to be the case, it's my role as head of the household to insure my children's education so I would make sure that's taken care of, and I'd be saying that if providence were to leave my wife where she couldn't handle the homeschooling, I'd make proper arrangements to remedy it.

For the other household duties, it'd be much as Vic mentioned.



> I'm not saying that is your point, but I'd like to clarify my position that the husband's responsibility is to make sure his wife is not pressed too hard. Sometimes infirmity overtakes and, despite the best desires, overwhelms. We are commanded to watch out for that.



It's strictly a look out for and care for my wife attitude - again, "well-suited" is probably the wrong term for it.


----------



## 5solasmom (May 23, 2007)

I'm late seeing this thread and haven't read all the replies, but regarding the blog itself....

I actually agree with much of his assessment. HOWEVER, the culprit he names (the reformed churches) I can't concur with. Where I have seen this mindset is in many homeschool circles (not specific to any denom) and the various books published for christian, homeschooling women that do identify "biblical manhood with something akin to John Wayne and its assumption that all Christian women should make Mary Poppins look domestically incompetent"). For YEARS I thought I was supposed to look a certain way, act a certain way (have a personality that is more sing song sweet than just plain old me), shun certain activities (such as not sending my children to Sunday School or not go to Starbucks on occassion with a friend because it would mean I wasn't doing something at home I should have been during that 2 hours etc), and basically be Stepford Wife like. These things defined me as a christian homeschooling mother, and it was *depressing*.

I am thankful for the Lords continual correction to my heart and mind and for my dh's wisdom in helping me discern where I have often gone wonky in my thinking. I still have to fight it often. I still easily want to glom onto something I read or hear someone say that sounds so "holy". Currently it's crafts...I _should_ be teaching my daughters how to knit, sew, scrapbook, lapbook, journal, sketch and make beauutiful cakes...then I would REALLY be a godly mother.  The problem isn't with the sewing and knitting...it's with mistaking those things with "godliness". It's believing the lie that God is "more" pleased with me if I do it. It's mistaking *holiness* with things that are good.

So yes, I can definately identify with this man's thoughts. If I start with His Word and a love for Christ as my motive, I'm better equipped to discern the good advice and pressure from the bad advice and pressure. I'm more equipped to be the christian wife and mom He calls _*me*_ to be. The difficulty lies in so many things, but I do believe that being the weaker sex, we christian ladies are so easily influenced by what "looks" nice and good and mistake it for what is true and essential. This is just one reason why we need the church and our husbands to help us stay on course. Motherhood is HARD...I see my heart failings so consistently that it's enough sometimes to want to find a rock to crawl under and hide in for days on end. We NEED encouragement from the Word, the church and our husbands in order to be able to walk this homeschooling road successfully (not perfectly).


----------



## Augusta (May 23, 2007)

I think that much of the issue would fade into nothing if women would pay more attention to what God's expectations of them are and ignore other women and the culture, be it reformed culture or popular culture. 

If my struggle is with myself and my obeying God in all things pertaining to godliness in my vocation as a follower of Christ, wife, and mother, (in that order) and not with how I measure up to my neighbor or the ideals created in the culture, then instead of being beaten down I would be sanctified.


----------

