# Baptism of the Holy Spirit



## Paul Nowlan (Aug 1, 2009)

What precisely is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit?

John the Baptist's disciples had to get it even though it is assumed that they already had a water baptism.


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## Hungus (Aug 1, 2009)

Circumcision of the heart/ Regeneration and indwelling of the Holy Spirit?


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## Semper Fidelis (Aug 1, 2009)

A sense of what the Holy Spirit's ministry consists of can be found, in part, in these theological headings (I've omitted some paragraphs to highlight the spiritual realities):


> Chapter XXVI
> Of the Communion of Saints
> 
> I. All saints, that are united to Jesus Christ their Head, by His Spirit, and by faith, have fellowship with Him in His grace, sufferings, death, resurrection, and glory:1 and, being united to one another in love, they have communion in each other's gifts and graces,2 and are obliged to the performance of such duties, public and private, as do conduce to their mutual good, both in the inward and outward man.3
> ...


In short, it is the ministry of the Holy Spirit to unite believers to their Head, Jesus Christ and all the benefits of salvation that flow from Christ. The Church administers visible signs and seals of Christ's work through the Holy Spirit but it is the Sovereign work of the Spirit that seals these benefits to the believer.

In short, you can see above what Baptism represents in terms of its spiritual realities and it is the Holy Spirit who applies and confirms all of those realities to the Saint.


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## dbh (Aug 1, 2009)

There are many views on what it is. I think most Reformed folks today believe it occurs at regeneration. Pentecostals and Charismatics believe it is post conversion and useful for various reasons. A few of the old school also taught it is something to be sought after conversion. Lloyd-Jones and Tozer were the most prominent last century who fit that category. And Spurgeon and others in previous centuries. My insignificant view is that the tongues/gifts groups of the last 100 years have debased a precious and vital doctrine and substituted an unworthy imposter in its place, at the instigation of the sneaky, nefarious one. Spurgeon states my view and prayer: "Brethren and sisters, it is intensely desirable that we should seek more to be consciously filled with the Holy Spirit. We get easily contented with a little spiritual blessedness. Let us grow more covetous of the best gifts. Let us crave to be endued with the Holy Spirit, and to be baptized in the Holy Ghost and in fire. The more we get of him the more assurance we shall have of heaven for our peace, the more foretastes of heaven for our happiness, and the more preparation for heaven in lively hope."


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## Paul Nowlan (Aug 1, 2009)

Thanks for your responses.


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## reformedminister (Aug 2, 2009)

If you read the book of Acts I think it is apparant that the Baptism with the Holy Spirit and regeneration are two separate things. It is an empowerment of the Spirit to be Christ's witnesses (Acts 1:8). In Acts 8, the Samaratans were converted but had not received the baptism with the Holy Spirit. You find the same thing in chapter 19. Many noted preachers of the past have commented on such a "Baptism" such as Spurgeon and D. L. Moody. Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones also made this distinction. I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT SPEAKING IN TONGUES IS THE INITIAL EVIDENCE OF THIS EXPERIENCE AND NEITHER DID THESE GENTLEMEN.


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## dr_parsley (Aug 2, 2009)

Paul Nowlan said:


> What precisely is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit?
> 
> John the Baptist's disciples had to get it even though it is assumed that they already had a water baptism.



It seems those people in e.g. in Acts 19, didn't know about Jesus or they had heard the haziest of rumours. They had been baptised into repentance, but not into the power of the cross, which they did not yet know about or believe in.

On the other hand, there are the people Philip baptised into the name of Jesus in Acts 8: "Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." This I don't know about. Philip was doing plenty of signs before the Peter and John showed up, but somehow he needed help with this one. People were believing, but were not yet transformed. Is it possible that God wanted to reinforce in people's minds the authority of the apostles by transforming people at the prayer of the apostles? This is not an argument for an Apostolic Church, because we also see people getting the Holy Spirit (i.e. supernatural transformation) from Paul without the involvement of the apostles, but it is possible God acted in that way in that instance for our good.

Short answer: The baptism of the Holy Spirit must be present in, and is implied by, real supernatural inward transformation. Those people who say that the sign of this is speaking in tongues have gotten their theory of assurance horribly and dangerously wrong.


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## LeeJUk (Aug 2, 2009)

I believe after hearing charles leiter go through these issues some very very clear things

1) Theres the filling of the Holy Spirit, this is our responsibility to keep up, literally let the Holy Spirit day by day, through repentance, faith, prayer, and letting the word dwell in you richly, control you. So thats kinda a style of life, a constant be Being filled with the Spirit.

2) Then theres the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, a special blessing God gives to a people in revival times or to ministers of the gospel, whereby they have trumendous ability to witness for Jesus and through there ministry bless many. This is one that only God can give sovereignly, though we should all be praying for it. - I think truly this is what pentecostals, charismatics and Lloyd-jones Should have called the great experiences they had after much prayer and they feell ike the heavens opened and felt the presence of God.

3) Then theres the baptism of the Holy Spirit, where the old self is crucified with Christ and Christ liveth in you. Basically being born again and put into the body of Christ and thus sharing in the freedom from sin, new nature and new life you have in Jesus. I think that baptism denotes your whole man and being, changing dramatically upon conversion, and the whole person of the Holy Spirit indwelling you and from that point on getting involved in your life.


Really I think that God just blessed people with the outpouring of his Spirit wether they called it the baptism with the Holy Spirit and Fire, or the Filling of the Holy Spirit. They meant a new enduement, and God gave em one. 


Charles Leiter is extremely good at speaking on this issue, you should check out his series on Romans over at his site: Lake Road Chapel | Home

It certainly cleared up a lot of theological questions I had about the issue of the Filling with the Holy Spirit etc..


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## Hungus (Aug 2, 2009)

LeeJUk said:


> 3) Then theres the baptism of the Holy Spirit, where the old self is crucified with Christ and Christ liveth in you. Basically being born again and put into the body of Christ and thus sharing in the freedom from sin, new nature and new life you have in Jesus. I think that baptism denotes your whole man and being, changing dramatically upon conversion, and the whole person of the Holy Spirit indwelling you and from that point on getting involved in your life.



This goes inline with my original post.

@reformedminister I think it safe to say here at least there are none who believe the interpretation of "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" in the was the charismatics do. Most of us would be Concentric to Full cessationist


Concentric Cessationists believe that the miraculous gifts have indeed ceased in the mainstream church and evangelized areas, but appear in unreached areas as an aid to spreading the Gospel (Luther and Calvin, though they were somewhat inconsistent in this position).
Classical Cessationists assert that the "sign gifts" such as prophecy, healing and speaking in tongues ceased with the apostles and the finishing of the canon of Scripture. They only served as launching pads for the spreading of the Gospel; as affirmations of God's revelation. However, these cessationists do believe that God still occasionally does miracles today, such as healings or divine guidance, so long as these "miracles" do not accredit new doctrine or add to the New Testament canon. Richard Gaffin, John F. MacArthur and Daniel B. Wallace are perhaps the best-known classical cessationists.
Full Cessationists argue that along with no miraculous gifts, there are also no miracles performed by God today. This argument, of course, turns on one's understanding of the term, "miracle." B. B. Warfield, J. Gresham Machen, F.N. Lee
Consistent Cessationists believe that not only were the miraculous gifts only for the establishment of the first-century church, but the so-called fivefold ministry found in Eph. 4 was also a transitional institution (i.e., There are no more apostles or prophets, but also no more pastors, teachers, or evangelists)


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## Paul Nowlan (Aug 2, 2009)

I guess my question is: When do we receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit:

1) when we believe in Jesus

2) when we are water baptized

3) when another Christian lays hands on us 

4) baptism of Holy Spirit ceased around 100 AD

5) none of the above


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## dr_parsley (Aug 3, 2009)

Paul Nowlan said:


> I guess my question is: When do we receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit:
> 
> 1) when we believe in Jesus
> 
> ...



When God chooses, neither sooner nor later.


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## Hungus (Aug 3, 2009)

Given my own concentric cessationist views I have to go with


> 1Cor. 12:13 12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 *For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body— Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.*


 Which in context is talking about our oneness with each other and Christ at and via regeneration. Thus I an going to stick with my original position that Baptism of the Holy Spirit occurs at regeneration, which logically (not temporally) precedes having faith in Christ.


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## jogri17 (Aug 3, 2009)

I kinda hold to the MLJ view on this (even though I am confessionally Reformed). I would jsut say its a subjective sense of great assurance.


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## OPC'n (Aug 3, 2009)

I think it means regeneration of the person who is baptized by the HS. However, I do believe that when the church was first established the HS gave them special gifts in order to establish their authority for building the foundation of the church... This was a different baptisim of the HS.


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## Semper Fidelis (Aug 3, 2009)

Paul Nowlan said:


> I guess my question is: When do we receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit:
> 
> 1) when we believe in Jesus
> 
> ...



See above:


> VI. The efficacy of Baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered;16 yet, notwithstanding, by the right use of this ordinance, *the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited, and conferred, by the Holy Ghost*, to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongs unto, according to the counsel of God's own will, *in His appointed time.*17


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## dbh (Aug 3, 2009)

jogri17 said:


> I kinda hold to the MLJ view on this (even though I am confessionally Reformed). I would jsut say its a subjective sense of great assurance.



MLJ was for praying for the "baptism" and used Thomas Goodwin as an example of a Puritan who taught the same. Goodwin used the term "sue Him (God) for it", as in pleading a promise. I've read some sermons by Richard Sibbes that teach the same. Spurgeon was quite clear along the same line: "Oh! if I can have in this Church a body of strong men and women, who know what they have received and hold it fast, and grow in grace, who shall have their eyes lit up with enthusiasm because their hearts are burning with a divine fervor, why, there is nothing impossible to you! You shall make the Church tell upon its age; you shall move London, which is the heart of the world, until it shall send out deep heart-throbs that shall reach throughout the universe. What, with such multitudes as God adds to us continually might not be done if we had but the baptism of fire? But we must be ready for the fire; we must tarry at Jerusalem, and then, when the Holy Ghost comes down we may speak each in his own tongue as the Spirit shall give us utterance, and who can tell how mightily we may serve the Master?" I sometimes wonder if this might be one thing missing in Reformed circles today and in my own life. We seem to be pretty correct on our doctrine but lack the depth of experience and life of our forefathers. I at least notice this in my own case and am praying for something along the lines of what we are discussing.


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## the particular baptist (Aug 4, 2009)

dbh said:


> jogri17 said:
> 
> 
> > I kinda hold to the MLJ view on this (even though I am confessionally Reformed). I would jsut say its a subjective sense of great assurance.
> ...



Which Spurgeon sermon is this ?


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## ewenlin (Aug 4, 2009)

dbh said:


> Don't mean to belabor this theme, but I was just reading Jonathan Edwards book on Revival and his description of what most assume is a description of his wife's experiences, and wonder if it might not be that experience which is the subject of this thread. Sorry if this is not interesting to anyone, it is immensely so to me and thought just maybe it would be to someone here. I apologize for the length of the quote, but couldn't see cutting it apart. "I have been particularly acquainted with many persons who have been the subjects of the high and extraordinary transports of the present day. But in the highest transports I have been acquainted with, and where the affections of admiration, love, and joy, so far as another could judge, have been raised to the highest pitch, the following things have been united, viz. A very frequent dwelling for some considerable time together, in views of the glory of the divine perfections and Christ’s excellencies; so that the soul has been as it were perfectly overwhelmed, and swallowed up with light and love, a sweet solace, and a rest and joy of soul altogether unspeakable. The person has more than once continued for five or six hours together, without interruption, in a clear and lively view or sense of the infinite beauty and amiableness of Christ’s person, and the heavenly sweetness of his transcendent love. So that (to use the person’s own expressions) the soul remained in a kind of heavenly Elysium, and did as it were swim in the rays of Christ’s love, like a little mote swimming in the beams of the sun that come in at a window. The heart was swallowed up in a kind of glow of Christ’s love coming down as a constant stream of sweet light, at the same time the soul all flowing out in love to him; so that there seemed to be a constant flowing and reflowing from heart to heart. The soul dwelt on high, was lost in God, and seemed almost to leave the body.
> The mind dwelt in a pure delight that fed and satisfied it, enjoying pleasure without the least sting, or any interruption. And, (so far as the judgment and word of a person of discretion may be taken, speaking upon the most deliberate consideration,) what was enjoyed in a single minute of the whole space, which was many hours, was worth more than all the outward comfort and pleasure of the whole life put together; and this without being in any trance, or at all deprived of the exercise of the bodily senses. And this heavenly delight has been enjoyed for years together, though not frequently so long together to such a height. Extraordinary views of divine things, and the religious affections, were frequently attended with very great effects on the body. Nature often sunk under the weight of divine discoveries, and the strength of the body was taken away. The person was deprived of all ability to stand or speak. Sometimes the hands were clinched, and the flesh cold, but the senses remaining. Animal nature was often in a great emotion and agitation, and the soul so overcome with admiration, and a kind of omnipotent joy, as to cause a person, unavoidably, to leap with all the might, with joy and mighty exultation. The soul at the same time was so strongly drawn towards God and Christ in heaven, that it seemed to the person as though soul and body would, as it were of themselves, of necessity mount up, leave the earth, and ascend thither.
> These effects on the body were not owing to the influence of example, but began about seven years ago, when there was no such enthusiastical season as many account this, but it was a very dead time through the land. They arose from no distemper catched from Mr. Whitefield, or Mr. Tennant, because they began before either of them came into the country. — Near three years ago, they greatly increased, upon an extraordinary self dedication, renunciation of the world, and resignation of all to God; which were made, in a great view of God’s excellency, in high exercise of love to him, and rest and joy in him. Since that time they have been very frequent; and began in a yet higher degree, and greater frequency, about a year and a half ago, upon another new resignation of all to God, with a yet greater fervency and delight of soul; the body often fainting with the love of Christ. — These effects appeared in a higher degree still, the last winter, upon another resignation to and acceptance of God, as the only portion and happiness of the soul, wherein the whole world, with the dearest enjoyments in it, were renounced as dirt and dung. All that is pleasant and glorious, and all that is terrible in this world, seemed perfectly to vanish into nothing, and nothing to be left but God, in whom the soul was perfectly swallowed up, as in an infinite ocean of blessedness. — Since this time there have often been great agitations of body, and an unavoidable leaping for joy; and the soul as it were dwelling, almost without interruption, in a kind of paradise; and very often, in high transports, disposed to speak to others concerning the great and glorious things of God, and Christ, and the eternal world, in a most earnest manner, and with a loud voice, so that it is next to impossible to avoid it. These effects on the body did not arise from any bodily distemper or weakness, because the greatest of all have been in a good state of health.
> This great rejoicing has been with trembling, i.e. attended with a deep and lively sense of the greatness and majesty of God, and the person’s own exceeding littleness and vileness. Spiritual joys in this person never were attended with the least appearance of laughter, or lightness, either of countenance or manner of speaking, but with a peculiar abhorrence of such appearances in spiritual rejoicings. These high transports, when past, have had abiding effects in the increase of sweetness, rest, and humility which they have left upon the soul; and a new engagedness of heart to live to God’s honour, and watch and fight against sin. And these things took place not in the giddy age of youth, nor in a new convert, or unexperienced Christian, but in one that was converted above twenty-seven years ago; and neither converted not educated in that enthusiastic town of Northampton, (as some may be ready to call it,) but in a town and family which none, that I know of, suspected of enthusiasm. And these effects were found in a Christian that has been long, in an uncommon manner, growing in grace, and rising, by very sensible degrees, to higher love to God, weanedness from the world, mastery over sin and temptation, through great trials and conflicts, long-continued strugglings and fighting with sin, earnest and constant prayer and labour in religion, and engagedness of mind in the use of all means, attended with a great exactness of life. — Which growth has been attended, not only with a great increase of religious affections, but with a wonderful alteration of outward behaviour, in many things, visible to those who are most intimately acquainted, so as lately to have become as it were a new person; and particularly in living so much more above the world, and in a greater degree of steadfastness and strength in the way of duty and self-denial, maintaining the Christian conflict against temptations, and conquering from time to time under great trials; persisting in an unmoved, untouched calm and rest, under the changes and accidents of time. The person had formerly, in lower degrees of grace, been subject to unsteadiness, and many ups and downs, in the frame of mind, being under great disadvantages, through a vaporous habit of body, and often subject to melancholy, and at times almost over-borne with it, it having been so even from early youth; but strength of grace and divine light has of a long time wholly conquered these disadvantages, and carried the mind, in a constant manner, quite above all such effects. — Since that resignation spoken of before, made near three years ago, every thing of that nature seems to be overcome and crushed by the power of faith and trust in God, and resignation to him; the person has remained in a constant uninterrupted rest, humble joy in God, and assurance of his favour, without one hour’s melancholy or darkness, from that day to this; vapours have had great effects on the body, such as they used to have before, but the soul has been always out of their reach. And this steadfastness and constancy has remained through great outward changes and trials, such as times of the most extreme pain, and apparent hazard of immediate death.
> ...



Seriously Daniel. Try to line break between paragraphs. Trying to make us  huh!


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## dbh (Aug 4, 2009)

PactumServa72 said:


> dbh said:
> 
> 
> > jogri17 said:
> ...



Sermon title is "Strong Meat", No. 506, preached April 19,1863, text is Hebrews 5.14

He preached on Acts 2 May 24th same year, title is "Pentecost", if you are interested.


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## dbh (Aug 4, 2009)

Ewenlin,
Do we reject a gift because it is not as prettily wrapped as we would like?


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## steven-nemes (Aug 4, 2009)

I think the post-conversion experience that the Pentecostals/Charismatics believe in is not an entirely satisfactory concept for a few reasons; I suppose I believe it is just regeneration.



> 1 Cor 12
> 12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.



Paul seems to be talking about the church; so being baptized into the spirit is something that happens to everyone who is a part of the church.


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## the particular baptist (Aug 4, 2009)

dbh said:


> PactumServa72 said:
> 
> 
> > dbh said:
> ...



Thanks, ill look them up.


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## ewenlin (Aug 4, 2009)

dbh said:


> Ewenlin,
> Do we reject a gift because it is not as prettily wrapped as we would like?



Hey Daniel, please don't take offense at what I said. I did not reject what you said in any way, rather that a simple formatting will make it easier for people to read your posts. I apologize if I came across as rude.


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## dbh (Aug 5, 2009)

ewenlin said:


> dbh said:
> 
> 
> > Ewenlin,
> ...



No problem Ewenlin. The paragraphs were indented before I pasted the quote. Suppose I should doctor it up next time after pasting.


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