# LBC1689 Chapter 21



## Rich Koster (May 18, 2011)

In light of the LBC1689 CH 21 and the WCF Ch 19, how would you deal with a brother who seems to regularly promote that he thinks smoking and drinking is a sin, and if you do so, you are in sin? I have gently referred to the confession in conversation and blog banter in the past. He continues to promote his view on Facebook and his website.


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## PuritanCovenanter (May 18, 2011)

Rich Koster said:


> how would you deal with



Ignore him. Put a picture of Spurgeon smoking a cigar as my avatar.


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## Bill The Baptist (May 18, 2011)

My pastor used to say that he didn't think smoking was a sin, if anything it would get you to heaven quicker. All joking aside though, one could make an argument against smoking and drinking based on the body being a temple, but then it would have to extend to all unhealthy behavior. I don't know if we will ever hear a sermon decrying the evils of fried chicken, at least not in the south.


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## Rich Koster (May 18, 2011)

He is not on PB, so that will not help. I have mentioned CHS's fondness of a good stogie in the past, but


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## O'GodHowGreatThouArt (May 18, 2011)

Even though one can make a strong case of smoking and continuous drinking being harmful to the body, I do not believe that the acts of doing either are in of themselves sin.

For instance, lets take a look at the concept of drinking. In excess it is clearly sin, as stated many times throughout scripture. However, the mere act of drinking is not sin. For those who contest this, ask them this: What better defense is there than our Lord and Savior for that view?



Matthew 11:19 said:


> The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds."


 


Matthew 26:27-29 said:


> And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom."


 
Especially with the last passage shown. The fruit of the wine, in Christ's time, is referring to wine. There was no other use for the "fruit of the vine" as a drink except for wine at that time.

My biggest concern here though is not the fact that he views drinking as sin (in a singularity). There's a greater problem here than calling the drinking of alcohol to be sin. In order for this person's views to continue standing, then he would have to deny either the infallibility of Scripture or the deity of Jesus Christ. Both would result in the leaving of the essential doctrines of Christianity.

I would bring the verses to him and have a discussion about how Christ viewed the drinking of alcohol in Scripture. It's possible that he does not know the history of the Lord's Supper, nor is familiar with the scriptures above. I pray that such is the case.


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## Skyler (May 18, 2011)

Unfriend him.


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## Pergamum (May 18, 2011)

If you are addicted to anything unhealthy, this is a violation of the 6th commandment, thou shalt not kill (and yes, this extends to all unhealthy behavior). 

I know few people that only smoke for the occasional pleasure. They smoke at least a pack of day because they are enslaved to it. I believe labeling a pack-a-day smoker as "sinning" does not show a misunderstanding of Christian liberty but shows a proper understanding of the 6th commandment.


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## Rich Koster (May 19, 2011)

Pergamum said:


> If you are addicted to anything unhealthy, this is a violation of the 6th commandment, thou shalt not kill (and yes, this extends to all unhealthy behavior).
> 
> I know few people that only smoke for the occasional pleasure. They smoke at least a pack of day because they are enslaved to it. I believe labeling a pack-a-day smoker as "sinning" does not show a misunderstanding of Christian liberty but shows a proper understanding of the 6th commandment.


 
How about an occasional cigar or pipe being grouped in with those who you mentioned as enslaved? Shouldn't we make a distinction between someone who enjoys things God has created properly and those who may be considered indulging excessively to their own harm? I'm just rehashing the banter I've been through here looking for some thoughts that I may have overlooked.

My reason for searching this a little deeper is that I want to avoid him, or myself, creating division. Someone's opinion, when repeated continuously when people chat around the coffee pot, can polarize people into two camps. When these unofficial "holiness movements" begin, they sometimes marginalize certain brothers/sisters who don't submit to the opinions that appear to go beyond what is written. I've seen it happen with people who think they are superior for not eating certain foods or sweeteners, not using public schools, not carrying any debt, not consuming alcohol, not smoking, not carrying any weight over their so called ideal weight and so on.


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## Pergamum (May 19, 2011)

I have seen many reformed folks make great efforts to visibly show their freedom and liberty by seemingly bragging about the beer and smokes that they like. 

But I cannot name a single person that I know of who smokes cigerrettes that I wouldn't call "addicted" and thus sinning. It is not occasional with cigerettes but seems to be a "need" for them. One guy I knew swore that he was not addicted, but he almost got into an auto accident, and the very first thing he did afterwards was light up to steady his nerves. Something's wrong with that.

If you know that a substance is highly addictive, then we should be very cautious rather than celebratory about our freedom in Christ. A stogie a week is one thing, a pack a day, or even 5-10 a day is quite another.


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## Bill The Baptist (May 19, 2011)

I think it really goes back to what Paul talks about in Romans. If you think that smoking and drinking is a sin, then it is. But if you don't think it is a sin, than it is not (in moderation). In either case, we should never be a stumbling block to our brothers, and that goes both ways.


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## AThornquist (May 19, 2011)

If not because of addiction or the "cool" factor (as weird as that is), I'm not sure why anyone would smoke cigarettes in the first place. 

As you all have said, these things are not sinful in themselves, but they are sinful if they are idols in your life, such as with the person who is addicted to cigarettes. With that said, we have a _lot_ of people in our church that drink and smoke in moderation, but it isn't flaunted in front of those who are former addicts. Some of the former addicts really aren't sure about the validity of having these liberties, but there is a spirit of understanding and care for them, and seeking to help them understand that for some it _is_ sin; if a former drunk is going to stumble by drinking a beer, he shouldn't do it! However, that doesn't mean that it isn't acceptable for others who do not have those proclivities. In this gentle guidance, especially by the pastors, many former addicts have come to understand and agree with this. 

If, for whatever reason, some were rabidly against it even still and made a point to express their frustration, they would probably need to find a new church; it is unbiblical to bind the consciences of others, and there is liberty to enjoy these things among company who will not fall into sin by the enjoyment. With that noted, one must be careful about who is invited to enjoy such things. Even though a stumbling block does not merely mean "an offense," we still don't want to be an offense unnecessarily.

What is strange to me is how the church at large doesn't seem to care about obesity. At least in my limited experience, there is a great inconsistency in the church if the concern about health and self-control is truly the reason smoking and drinking are so often criticized. Why are those potential idols warned against with such candor while there are many bending pews because of the excessive weight of certain congregants? I realize that there _are_ people who are actively critical of obesity and the idolatry that is so often a reason for it (though not always), but in general there is a great inconsistency within evangelicalism. True, smoking and drinking are not necessities for living, but neither is that dessert you're going to eat.


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## steadfast7 (May 19, 2011)

Doesn't the issue go beyond merely what's unhealthy or what's addicting? Drinking and smoking tend to be taboos in most cultures and should inform us on whether we should engage in it regardless of whether it's a technical sin, no?


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## kceaster (May 19, 2011)

<lurking cloak=off>

While it is true that not all sins are equally heinous, the so-called sin of smoking or drinking and the sin of self-righteously judging another's freedom are probably on par with one another, as both would receive judgment from God. We know that the Pharisees were guilty of the latter, and we know that drunkards are guilty of the former. Our main admonition in this is not to cause our brother to stumble by our freedom (Rom 14:13). If he is convinced it is sin to smoke and drink, then he should abstain, by all means. And we should abstain when we are around him. But he is not justified in his being offended when the scriptures are unclear on the matter. If it is not a sin, he cannot bind another man's conscience unduly, because that would mean he would be sinning as well. We can't overcome what we think is evil by doing evil ourselves. Of course, he may argue that he is doing good by pointing out another man's "sin". In the end, neither brother is justified by judging, abstaining, or partaking. "Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make hims stand."

Really, we have enough to do in our own battle daily against the world, the flesh, and the devil to be taking up arms against each other over disputable things.

In Christ,

KC

<lurking cloak=on>


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## Bill The Baptist (May 19, 2011)

AThornquist said:


> True, smoking and drinking are not necessities for living, but neither is that dessert you're going to eat



Perhaps one day we will be as wise as Solomon and realize that virtually everything we do in this life is "vanity"


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## AThornquist (May 19, 2011)

steadfast7 said:


> Doesn't the issue go beyond merely what's unhealthy or what's addicting? Drinking and smoking tend to be taboos in most cultures and should inform us on whether we should engage in it regardless of whether it's a technical sin, no?


 
Most cultures? I would be interested in any documentation you have about them being taboo is most cultures (or maybe you just have personal experience, which is a valid insight here too I suppose). I was under the impression that there is a slight taboo in the USA because of fundamentalism, though I definitely believe there is reason to think being a drunk or an addict in "most cultures" is rightly maligned.


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## steadfast7 (May 19, 2011)

AThornquist said:


> steadfast7 said:
> 
> 
> > Doesn't the issue go beyond merely what's unhealthy or what's addicting? Drinking and smoking tend to be taboos in most cultures and should inform us on whether we should engage in it regardless of whether it's a technical sin, no?
> ...


 
I think the "slight taboo" in the US goes back further than the fundies - I would say the Puritans perhaps? The places I've been to in asia seem to look down on smoking and drinking. Very few cultures celebrate and promote it.


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## AThornquist (May 19, 2011)

The Puritans drank alcohol and smoked tobacco. In fact, there are some great poems written by Puritans that celebrate tobacco as a gift of God. Kind of reminds me of Spurgeon's devotional on cigars...


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## Pergamum (May 19, 2011)

steadfast7 said:


> Doesn't the issue go beyond merely what's unhealthy or what's addicting? Drinking and smoking tend to be taboos in most cultures and should inform us on whether we should engage in it regardless of whether it's a technical sin, no?


 
DENNIS: Eating pork in Muslim cultures and maybe cow in Hindu cultures are also cultural prohibitions. I believe that there is some wisdom in sometimes refraining from certain foods or drinks in order to give the Gospel a better hearing. 

That is why in Acts the believers were told to refrain from things strangled and blood. This was not a universal prohibition but a move of wisdom as the Gospel expanded into the Gentile world and was given to help relations between Jewish and Gentile believers in the same company. (Ironically some reformed will delight in flaunting their freedom in smoking and drinking but think eating things strangled or blood is sin).

However, I have changed from my former position of total abstention merely for the sake of another sinful culture. Sometimes it is advantagous to show the freedom and liberty that is yours in Christ. Many former Mslms who now believe like their pork, and I think that is great.


ANDREW: Amen about the obesity issue in America. I am a big guy and I feel guilty for this here in this country where many folks I know often eat very poorly. One misssionary I know was among an indian group whose greatest insult was to call another a "meat-glutton" (one who ate too much and didn't share). This missionary told of how this tribe had concluded (perhaps rightly) that, if one was a meat-glutton, they also could not be trusted to control their other drives and urges as well, but was a slave to them. Thus, eating too much was indicative of generally being a bad character.



ALL: I have seen a trend among the Reformed to delight in smoking and drinking. For some, it is almost as if they are making a show of their freedom or deliberately reacting against the Fundamentalist abstentionists (they often comment about how much they like a good smoke or a good drink, but rarely comment about how much they like a good Twinkie). I have seen some who I believe may have been doing such things to be provocateurs.


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## Rich Koster (May 19, 2011)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> Rich Koster said:
> 
> 
> > how would you deal with
> ...



The picture is posted  However, I decided not to ignore. I'll just choose my words very carefully.


"I have seen some who I believe may have been doing such things to be provocateurs."

Yes, Pergamum. This is something I try to avoid. It is just as counterproductive as hammering people repeatedly.



EVERYONE: Thanks for the feedback and keep the discussion going. It has been though provoking and helpful.


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## steadfast7 (May 19, 2011)

AThornquist said:


> The Puritans drank alcohol and smoked tobacco. In fact, there are some great poems written by Puritans that celebrate tobacco as a gift of God. Kind of reminds me of Spurgeon's devotional on cigars...


 
I'm surprised! I stand corrected.


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## Rich Koster (May 24, 2011)

AThornquist said:


> steadfast7 said:
> 
> 
> > Doesn't the issue go beyond merely what's unhealthy or what's addicting? Drinking and smoking tend to be taboos in most cultures and should inform us on whether we should engage in it regardless of whether it's a technical sin, no?
> ...


 
I was under the impression that the Methodist Holiness & Salvation Army movements started this, but these groups may be seen as a subset of what you mentioned.


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## greenbaggins (May 24, 2011)

Why not ask him for his reasoning? Also, is his position a self-righteous one, or is it based on the sixth commandment? Mutual understanding could lead to less frustration on both your parts. He might come to see then that you may actually have biblical reasons for thinking the way you do, and you might find out that he is not motivated by self-righteousness. Lots of people confuse commandment-obeying with self-righteousness. I've been accused of being a legalist before simply because of my Puritan view of the Sabbath, or because of my views of images. It is pretty important, I think, to know why someone believes the position they hold, and how extensive that position is. Does this person believe that any imbibing at all is sinful? And what does he hope to accomplish by advancing his position?


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## PuritanCovenanter (May 24, 2011)

Just for fun....



> Puritans To Prohibition
> 
> The Puritans loaded more beer than water onto the Mayflower before they cast off for the New World. 1
> 
> ...






> Smoking Spiritualized by Ralph Erskine
> 
> 
> PART I
> ...


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## Rich Koster (May 24, 2011)

Joshua said:


> I like beer and tobacco. Me talking about what I like is not bragging about it. Me berating others who _don't_ partake thereof is me bragging about it. If others can talk about their sports, movies, projects, etc. then I can talk about my beer, smokes, yada yada yada. Perceiving to know the intentions and motivation of another's heart when he/she is talking about the drink, smoke, or other good thing of the earth that the Lord has given is _not_ good practice.


 
I agree that talking about it is not bragging about it. However, if I made a habit of intentionally asking a brother if he tried the latest IPA at the local distributor in front of someone who is known to have issues with drinking, this is using my liberty in a hurtful manner. I think this properly illustrates the provocateurs fore-mentioned.

---------- Post added at 12:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:36 PM ----------




greenbaggins said:


> Why not ask him for his reasoning? Also, is his position a self-righteous one, or is it based on the sixth commandment? Mutual understanding could lead to less frustration on both your parts. He might come to see then that you may actually have biblical reasons for thinking the way you do, and you might find out that he is not motivated by self-righteousness. Lots of people confuse commandment-obeying with self-righteousness. I've been accused of being a legalist before simply because of my Puritan view of the Sabbath, or because of my views of images. It is pretty important, I think, to know why someone believes the position they hold, and how extensive that position is. Does this person believe that any imbibing at all is sinful? And what does he hope to accomplish by advancing his position?


 
The summary of what I remember boils down to a _perceived_ appearance of evil being done by a Christian to they eyes of the onlooking world. The objection is tied to a person who has just preached to gospel being seen drinking or smoking by someone. He thinks it marginalizes the Christian witness to the world. This is what I remember from a discussion from several months ago. I, on the other hand, think hammering someone for drinking or smoking ( or singling out any one targeted sin) as part of (or an impromptu comment made) what is being preached hinders a clear proclamation of the Gospel.


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