# Cessation of Tongues Question



## charispistis (May 28, 2012)

Hello Everyone! 

I have been talking with a Pentecostal person and he raised a question regarding 1 Corinthians 13. This post is directed at those who believe that "when the Perfect comes" talks about the completed canon of Scripture.

In a nut shell, many cessationists argue that 1 Cor 13:8 speaks of the cessation of that which is in part, as opposed to that which lasts forever, that is, love. So gifts like tongues would have no purpose after the 1st century, more specifically after AD70. And with the arrival of the "Perfect", "mature" or "complete", being the completed canon of scripture and full revelation of God, those "training wheels" or "diapers" if you will, have no purpose today.

The person I'm talking to raised this issue. 

He says that the "Perfect" cannot be the completed canon because Paul at the end of verse 12 on 1 Cor 13 says:* "...then "I" shall know fully, even as "I" have been fully known.* (1 Corinthians 13:12 ESV). His question is: If the canon was completed after Paul's death, how can he have said *"I shall know fully"*? 

Because of this, he argues that the "Perfect" is Christ.

I personally don't think this argues against this position, but wanted to ask my dear brothers and sisters at PB.

Your thoughts, ideas and suggestions are greatly appreciated!


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## deleteduser99 (May 28, 2012)

I think the purpose of the gifts though were to confirm the apostolic testimony. In a situation where there is not a completed canon it's no surprise that God would work out of the normal to edify His church, and 1 Cor. 13 demonstrates in part how God matures His church through clearer revelation.

Looking at 1 Corinthians 13, one day we won't even need the Bible, though the concept is there of maturing understanding, and as perfection comes the supports we are now leaning on will disappear. That's how I see 1 Cor. 13 relating to tongues and the supernatural gifts; they gave the certain testimony of God, but the completed Word of God is enough to hold a man perfectly accountable to God. The rich man pleaded for Lazarus to go to his brother, but Abraham said that the word of Moses was enough to hold them accountable. But now the sure word of Christ is enough. "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds" (Heb. 1:1-2). Everything that needs to be revealed, has been revealed in Christ. So in Christ we have a fuller understanding (and all the understanding we will receive this side of eternity), yet we are still waiting for the perfect understanding. In the meantime, Christ's testimony leaves all without any excuse.

But don't even the first two verses show that the gifts are subservient to weightier matters in the law such as love? You don't need speaking in tongues to do that, but the Word is sharper than a two-edged sword that divides the soul and spirit, the thoughts and intentions of the heart (Heb. 4:12), and teaches us how to do just those things. I think the thing Paul is saying most immediately that he will immediately know is love. And when perfection comes, we will know perfect love. There isn't anything about the supernatural gifts that will automatically produce greater love in a Christian (evidenced by the loveless and divisive spirit of the Corinthians at the time of the letter), but the Word of God teaches us to do that.


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## CalvinandHodges (May 28, 2012)

Hi Alex:

The Perfect here does refer to God's revelation to man. The Scriptures are the perfect revelation of God's will for us today. There will come a time when we will no longer need the Scriptures for we will see God face to face. But as for now we are not to add to or take away from God's revelation to us in the Bible, Revelation 22:18-21. This passage in Revelation tells us clearly that God has spoken through the Apostles, and that what they have written down is sufficient for us to believe in and follow our Lord Jesus Christ, John 20:31. Another voice we will not hear nor follow, John 10:4,5.

Tongues were given as a sign to the unbelieving Jews that the Messiah had arrived, 1 Cor 14:21. The prophecy from Isaiah 28 that this verse is referring to specifies "this generation" which would be the generation in which the Messiah appeared. Despite the sign given, "yet they will not hear me" says the Lord. The intent of the gift of tongues was to convert the unbelieving Jews not the unbelieving gentiles, Acts 10:44-46; 11:16-18.

Your friend may mention tongues as a prayer language. But, speaking in tongues was never intended to be done privately, but in the presence of others, 1 Corinthians 14:6, 16.

Hope this helps,

Rob


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## Fogetaboutit (May 28, 2012)

CalvinandHodges said:


> The Perfect here does refer to God's revelation to man. The Scriptures are the perfect revelation of God's will for us today



I believe this is an important point, if they interpret "that which is perfect" as being Christ then they have to explain what is their interpretation of "knowledge" in verse 8 and how they would reconcile that "knowledge" would vanish away at the second coming of Christ.

If they believe that we will have "all" knowledge at the second coming and therefore we woudn't require additional knowledge, it would mean that we would also know everything there is to know about God which would be impossible since God is not finite like us. Therefore we will never know all things. The only plausible explaination in my opinion is that "knowledge" in verse 8 refers to God's intended revelation to man which is complete in scriptures


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## Scott1 (May 28, 2012)

What has ceased is special revelation (Scripture) now that the faith, built on the foundation of the prophets and apostles (Ephesians 2:20) that was "once delivered" (Jude 1:3). In no ordinary sense does special revelation occur outside of Scripture now that it has been established, until the end of this world.



> Chapter I
> Of the Holy Scripture
> 
> I. Although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men unexcusable;[1] yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God, and of His will, which is necessary unto salvation.[2] Therefore it pleased the Lord, at sundry times, and in divers manners, to reveal Himself, and to declare that His will unto His Church;[3] and afterwards for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the Church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing;[4] which makes the Holy Scripture to be most necessary;[5] those former ways of God's revealing His will unto His people being now ceased.[6]



This is what the Westminster Confession summarizes as the doctrine of Scripture.

It is why what is called "charismatic/pentecostal" communion doctrine/practice is out of accord with Scripture because it teaches or assumes that extrabiblical special revelation is an ordinary means of grace, that it is to be sought and corporate worship centered on it, e.g. speaking in an unknown tongue and interpretation of an unknown tongue.

It is one reason there is such disorder in their communions.


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## charispistis (May 28, 2012)

Scott1 said:


> What has ceased is special revelation (Scripture) now that the faith, built on the foundation of the prophets and apostles (Ephesians 2:20) that was "once delivered" (Jude 1:3). In no ordinary sense does special revelation occur outside of Scripture now that it has been established, until the end of this world.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree 100% with you, but the person I'm talking to argues that Paul said he would "fully know" as he is fully known. And because Paul died before special revelation ended with the closed canon, Paul was wrong by saying he would "know fully"! Thus, according to him, the "Perfect" cannot be the closed canon. That's how he denies the cessation of tongues.


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## rbcbob (May 28, 2012)

> Hello Everyone!
> 
> I have been talking with a Pentecostal person and he raised a question regarding 1 Corinthians 13. This post is directed at those who believe that "when the Perfect comes" talks about the completed canon of Scripture.
> 
> ...



1 Corinthians 13:8-12
The context of this passage is that concerning the ignorance of the Christians in the church at Corinth regarding the relationship between gifts and graces. Paul reminds them that they can have extraordinary, phenomenal gifts and yet be destitute of love and thus be lost in their sins (vss. 1-3).
“He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.” ( 1 John 4:8)

Paul states at the end of the chapter in verse 13 that “love is the greatest”. Why is love the greatest? Because love never fails. Love will accompany you all the way into the eternal state. Not so with all the flashy phenomenal gifts that they were desiring.

1 Corinthians 13: 8 Love never fails εκπιπτει. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail καταργηθησονται; whether there are tongues, they will cease παυσονται; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away καταργηθησονται. 

Verse eight contains a triad __ prophecy, tongues, and knowledge __ which are contrasted with another triad in verse thirteen __ faith, hope, and love. The second triad consists of things that remain, whereas the first triad consists of things that cease, fail, or vanish away.
With what are faith, hope, and love contrasted? They are contrasted with prophecy, tongues, and knowledge. It should be apparent that if we make both of these triads continue throughout this present age until Christ returns then the apostle’s intended contrast is destroyed!
Paul says that love never fails [εκπιπτει ] the word means to fall down from or out of. So the meaning is that Love will never fall from its exalted position.
•	But prophecies (the extraordinary gift) shall be καταργεω “reduced to inactivity”.
•	Tongues shall παυω “stop, cease, leave off”. Compare the use of the word in Heb. 10:2 and in 1Pet 4:1.
•	Knowledge likewise shall be καταργεω “reduced to inactivity”. In this context just what knowledge is Paul talking about? Not spiritual and divine knowledge in general for surely there will be such knowledge hereafter in heaven as well as now on earth, and vastly more … knowledge of God, Christ, and spiritual things shall not vanish away but shall gloriously increase. By the phrase ‘knowledge shall pass away’ is meant a particular miraculous gift (see 1Cor 12:8) that was in operation in the Church of God in those days.
This knowledge was a Revelatory gift, i.e. it involved revealing directly to the possessor of the gift the mind and will of God. This is evidenced by its association with prophecy and tongues.

9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 

Paul says that we know, literally “we are presently knowing” εκ μερους “out of that which is partial” or “out of a portion of the whole.” Knowledge and prophecy were then coming forth in the period of Partial Revelation as contrasted with Completed Revelation as is seen in the following verses.


10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. 

“But” says Paul by way of contrast “when comes that which is perfect …” . This phrase το τελειον that which is perfect is pivotal to the interpretation of the passage. The two Greek words are Neuter in gender and should be rendered the perfect thing. Whatever Paul had in mind when he wrote το τελειον it was, in its grammatical identity something neuter. If he had in mind Christ he would no doubt have written the masculine ο τελειος He who is perfect . If what he was referring to was Christ’s return he would have written the feminine η τελεια as in the feminine τη παρουσια “the coming of our Lord” (1Thess 5:23). Whatever Paul did have in mind he alludes to it with the neuter το τελειον that perfect thing.
So what is that perfect thing? The meaning of το τελειον is that which is brought to its end; finished; wanting nothing necessary to completeness; perfect.
Again the question comes: what is that perfect, that completed thing that the apostle was pointing to? It must be something apposite and juxtaposed to that which is partial mentioned in the previous verse. It is Revelatory, and since the category of the partial is Revelation then the category of the complete must be Revelation.
That Perfect Thing is the completed, inscripturated Revelation; the finished Word of God in both the Old and New Testaments.


11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 
Paul here, by way of illustration, administers a rebuke to the Corinthians. They have been behaving childishly in regard to the Extraordinary Gifts in general and Speaking in Tongues in particular. He illustrates this by saying that when he was a child he spoke, understood, and thought as a child, i.e. childlishly!
When however, “he became γεγονα [perfect tense] a man ” ανηρ that is, he completely entered manhood, he remained a man and did not return to childhood. He put away childish things. So too he is telling the Corinthians that the Church would one day reach Revelatory maturity and never return to childhood again.
It is a sign of spiritual childishness to want to go back to the time of the Church’s childishness. The time of the church’s childishness was the time of the extraordinary phenomenal gifts!


12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. 

Paul gives explanation here saying “For” or “Because” “we see now, at this present time, by means of a mirror [εσοπτρον _ a piece of highly polished metal ] dimly { αινιγματι literally, in an enigma, indistinctly}…
Paul’s point is that in their day the Corinthians, along with all other believers, had an uncompleted Bible; a partially polished metal shield in which they could dimly behold themselves. James had already taken up the imagery of a mirror in reference to the Word of God saying in chapter One and verse Twenty-three of his epistle “For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror εσοπτρον.
Paul again takes up this same imagery, although he employs a synonym of εσοπτρον in his second epistle to this same Corinthian church saying:
14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror [κατοπτριζω participle from κατοπτρον ] the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

So here in (13:12) Paul is showing them that in this era of partially completed revelation they see things dimly; they know things out of a part of an as yet uncompleted whole. But he points this out in order to bring out the contrast. This partiality and dimness have continued up to their present time, but….
Contrast relative to Time
“but then …” τοτε When? When that perfect thing i.e. the completed Scriptures have come. The Corinthians were seeing in their Hebrew bibles dimly, but then τοτε face to face προσωπον προς προσωπον 
Contrast relative to Quality
“face to face” How? Clearly as contrasted with dimly.
This phrase “face to face” has been popularly interpreted to mean the beholding God by the saints in glory. But the phrase as used in Scripture never refers to that glorious event. Rather the biblical usage consistently refers to the clear propositional revelation of the Word of God as contrasted with the less clear revelation of visions and dreams.
Numbers 12:6 Then He said, "Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, make Myself known to him in a vision; I speak to him in a dream. 7 Not so with My servant Moses; He is faithful in all My house. 8 I speak with him face to face, Even plainly, and not in dark sayings; And he sees the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant Moses?"
See also __ Exodus 33:9-11, 18-23; Deuteronomy 5:1-4
Thus Paul tells the Corinthians that then, when that perfect, completed thing has come their knowing shall no longer be dim but shall possess the precision that comes from the clear propositional revelation of God’s Word inscripturated and preserved to the Church to the end of the age.


13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Even though the phenomenal gifts of prophecy (direct revelation from God), tongues (languages known without being learned), and knowledge (intelligence never acquired by study) would not continue to abide in the Church throughout this age, and at the end of the age faith becomes sight (2Cor 5:6-7) and hope becomes fulfillment (Rom 8:22-25), nevertheless Love continues throughout eternity.


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## Peairtach (May 28, 2012)

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. (I Cor 13:11-12)

This is speaking of the relatively better knowledge of himself that one has with the complete Scriptures.



> For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face:



Whose face do we see in the mirror but our own. Elsewhere Scripture is compared to a mirror or glass. The mirror of Scripture/revelation is only complete and unobscured when the last book is added. 



> now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


This may - at least partly - refer to the previous analogy of the child, who is only properly self-aware once she moves into puberty and adulthood. The Church also, only started to become properly self-aware and self-conscious once she received the Bible, and that process has been going on ever since as the Holy Spirit illuminates the Scriptures. 

Before the First Century the Church was a relative child. She still hasn't grown into the full bloom of her Womanhood.



> When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.



Tongues/revelation by foreign languages (I spake as a child); prophecy (I understood as a child); knowledge/supernatural knowledge (I thought as a child) - these are all relatively childish compared to having the complete Scriptures. 

To be taken up with these things or to attempt to revive counterfeits is to go back to an earlier chilhood phase of the Church.


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## Scott1 (May 28, 2012)

charispistis said:


> Scott1 said:
> 
> 
> > What has ceased is special revelation (Scripture) now that the faith, built on the foundation of the prophets and apostles (Ephesians 2:20) that was "once delivered" (Jude 1:3). In no ordinary sense does special revelation occur outside of Scripture now that it has been established, until the end of this world.
> ...



We must let Scripture interpret Scripture. The construct for sola scriptura is much more than I Corinthians 13:12- if your friend is hinging his whole doctrine of the Word on one verse, he is not interpreting basic principles correctly.



> I Corinthians 13
> 
> 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
> 
> ...



I don't think the Apostle is speaking of the moment that the last canon of Scripture was closed- he is speaking of abiding attributes of growing in faith and of a future state, in glory.

Mr. Calvin's commentary on the immediate context:



> Calvin's Commentary I Corinthians 13:9-12
> 
> 9. We know in part This passage is misinterpreted by most persons, as if it meant that our knowledge, and in like manner our prophecy, is not yet perfect, but that we are daily making progress in them. Paul’s meaning, however, is — that it is owing to our imperfection that we at present have knowledge and prophecy. Hence the phrase in part means — “Because we are not yet perfect.” Knowledge and prophecy, therefore, have place among us so long as that imperfection cleaves to us, to which they are helps. It is true, indeed, that we ought to make progress during our whole life, and that everything that we have is merely begun. Let us observe, however, what Paul designs to prove — that the gifts in question are but temporary. Now he proves this from the circumstance, that the advantage of them is only for a time — so long as we aim at the mark by making progress every day.
> 
> ...


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## Scott1 (May 28, 2012)

The question is what has ceased?

As Scripture completed has established the special revelation of God until the end of the world, tongues, interpretation or prophecy would not now be used, in any ordinary sense, to supplement special revelation (which has already been delivered). Nor is there any Scriptural basis to believe there is any competition with it.

In fact, we are told the opposite.



> John 1
> 
> 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
> 
> ...


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