# Your choice of your child's education



## blhowes (Jan 31, 2006)

For those who are parents, soon-to-be parents, or someday hope-to-be parents, which path have you chosen for the education of your children? Why?

Secondary questions:
1. If your choice was the public schools, has there been much conflict that you've had to deal with? 

2. If your choice was christian schools or homeschooling, what are your children taught about evolution? Is the focus strictly the teaching of creation, or are they also taught evolution?


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## sastark (Jan 31, 2006)

Our daughter is not of shooling age yet, but when she is, we hope to put her in a good Christian school. Why? Because public education is anti-christian and homeschooling, I believe, is an absolute last resort.

Secondary questions:
1. N/A

2. I would hope that my daughter (and any other future children) is taught the truth about evolution: that it is a lie. I would hope that evolution is not completely ignored, because if it was her education would be incomplete. Evolution is a major philosophy in our day, and if our children are not taught about it and how to refute it, then we are not preparing the next generation to deal with the world.


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## LadyFlynt (Jan 31, 2006)

only ours are schooling...we don't ignore evolution. We explain it...but we are teaching creationism as truth.

[Edited on 1-31-2006 by LadyFlynt]


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## Anton Bruckner (Jan 31, 2006)

these times are difficult. If you guys have the opportunity to Home School or send your children to a good Christian School, I suggest you do it. 

Nothing is more important that building the proper foundation for your children in terms of morals, ethics, spirituality and education.


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## kevin.carroll (Jan 31, 2006)

> _Originally posted by blhowes_
> For those who are parents, soon-to-be parents, or someday hope-to-be parents, which path have you chosen for the education of your children? Why?



Public schools for a variety of reasons. Money is a big one. Another is I have grave misgivings about the justifications for both home and Christian schooling. But as it is a matter of Christian liberty (though the rabid wing of the home schooling movement would disagree), I respect the choices that each family makes.



> Secondary questions:
> 1. If your choice was the public schools, has there been much conflict that you've had to deal with?



Nope. But then I live in rural Mississippi, the public school principal is one of our elders, our pianist works for the county administration, and several of our members are teachers there.


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## Puritanhead1981 (Jan 31, 2006)

Home Schooling I think that this is the mandate from the bible. I think parents have gotten sucked into thinking that only the "pros" can educate children. I think it comes down to among other things fear, brainwashing, and laziness. If parents are responsible to the Lord for our children in any way than one better do as much as one can. passing the buck doesn´t work with the Lord 


Just my 2 cents in love


let's close the DOE as well what a waste of $$$

[Edited on 31-12006 by Puritanhead1981]

[Edited for spelling]

[Edited on 1-31-2006 by Me Died Blue]


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 31, 2006)

Homeschooling. Parents are to raise their children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. It is an abdication of that God-given responsibility to place children in the hands of the godless statists who run public schools. Christian schools are good. But it is a special blessing and a privilege, as well as an awesome responsibility, to teach one's own children.


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## biblelighthouse (Jan 31, 2006)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> Homeschooling. Parents are to raise their children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. It is an abdication of that God-given responsibility to place children in the hands of the godless statists who run public schools.







Amy and I have 4 daughters (so far), and we plan to home-school them.











http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/?item_no=224516





[Edited on 1-31-2006 by biblelighthouse]


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## Scot (Jan 31, 2006)

Homeschooling.

As far as evolution goes, we've told our oldest daughter what people believe concerning it. The first time that I explained it to her, she busted out laughing. It was one of the most ridiculous things she'd ever heard.


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## kevin.carroll (Jan 31, 2006)

Must...not...get...drawn...into...argument...:bigsmile:


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## blhowes (Jan 31, 2006)

> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> Must...not...get...drawn...into...argument...:bigsmile:


But...just...between...you...and...me...


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## Puritan Sailor (Jan 31, 2006)

We will home school our son starting next year officially. But that is because it is what he needs for now. He has difficulties focusing, and a school teacher doesn't have time to work with him when he/she has 20-30 other students to worry about. Otherwise we would probably send him to a Christian school.


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## kevin.carroll (Jan 31, 2006)

> _Originally posted by blhowes_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> ...



I can't man. This thread is full of homeschoolers and my rabies vaccinations are not up to date. 

[Edited on 1-31-2006 by kevin.carroll]

Be nice...moderator's warning...

[Edited on 1-31-2006 by LadyFlynt]


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## crhoades (Jan 31, 2006)

> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by blhowes_
> ...



10...9.5...10
And the winner in the restraint category is....

Kevin Carroll!!!


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## Peter (Jan 31, 2006)

I'm pretty much in agreement that Christians should homeschool but I have several questions about the "theory" behind the movement. (1) one reason advanced is that it is the parents responsibility to educate their kids and they can't delegated that responsibilty. Is this a correct summarization? What exactly is the argument (w/all the premises and proofs)? (2) are you against public (or government) education completely or just infidel governments? what are the reasons?


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## Puritan Sailor (Jan 31, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Peter_
> I'm pretty much in agreement that Christians should homeschool but I have several questions about the "theory" behind the movement. (1) one reason advanced is that it is the parents responsibility to educate their kids and they can't delegated that responsibilty. Is this a correct summarization? What exactly is the argument (w/all the premises and proofs)? (2) are you against public (or government) education completely or just infidel governments? what are the reasons?



I would like to hear the argument too. Personally, I wouldn't have a problem sending my kids to a government school if it were not so anti-christian, narrow minded, and does not push kids to learn at their capacity at all. A classical education would be awesome. But that's only possible now if you homeschool or find a good private school. The arguments that experts can't teach our children is a little weird. I could not learn detailed physics, Greek, Latin, or higher math skills from my parents. Not that their not smart. They just don't know the topics. At some point we have to rely on folks outside the home to teach our children.


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## LadyFlynt (Jan 31, 2006)

1) We believe it is our responsibility to see that our children receive a _sound_ Christian education...this is going to vary between ppl. The best way to solve this is to simply educate them ourselves...however, many of us are not against Christian schools. Unfortunately, many "Christian" schools are nothing more than scrubbed up public schools. Also, many homeschoolers are against the methods of traditional classroom education for children, it is only one method of learning/teaching and only some children are capable of fully learning in this manner. Traditional classroom settings leave much to be desired...home education is flexible to needs and skills.

2) against government education completely...you cannot show me a completely God-driven government...let alone one that all Christians would be in agreement with. Also, what we would consider infidelish, a muslim or jew or pagan would embrace...and that can work any other way you want to mix it...which is why muslims, jewish, pagans, athiests, and christians are all part of the homeschooling movement. I agree with this, as parents we should raise our children in our own manner...not in the manner of a centralized government as socialism promotes.


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## Pilgrim (Feb 1, 2006)

Some "public" schools in more rural areas still have significant Christian influence. I've even heard of some very backwood isolated ones that have prayer over the PA, etc, but certainly this is a rare exception these days. If the ACLU can't find a plaintiff, no one has standing to sue to stop it.


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## Pilgrim (Feb 1, 2006)

I don't have children. But I would say Christian school or homeschool, depending on the situation. Yes children are to be brought up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, but I don't see this necessarily mandating homeschooling.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Feb 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Peter_
> I'm pretty much in agreement that Christians should homeschool but I have several questions about the "theory" behind the movement. (1) one reason advanced is that it is the parents responsibility to educate their kids and they can't delegated that responsibilty. Is this a correct summarization? What exactly is the argument (w/all the premises and proofs)? (2) are you against public (or government) education completely or just infidel governments? what are the reasons?



I certainly can't speak for the homeschooling "movement" but I can offer my 

The modern homeschool movement is partly a reaction to the gross descent into immorality and increasing hostility towards Biblical values found in public education. The movement includes non-Christians as well as Christians though, so its rising popularity is not completely based on this issue. 

Some parents are concerned about the safety of their children in public schools. There is a great deal of violence that is reported in the media. Some schools use metal detectors to keep weapons out, often unsuccessfully. Some parents, Christian and non-Christian, are concerned about how sex is taught to children, or easy access to abortion and birth control without parental involvement, evolution indoctrination, or harmful teacher and peer influences. It is also well known that public school teachers are often overloaded with students and cannot give the necessary time and attention to certain students who need it most. Literacy levels have been declining for decades in America even as more and more money is funneled into public education, and even as the federal government asserts more and more control. These and other such concerns are legitimate and stand out as major reasons why Christian parents, who are charged with the well-being and education of their children, ought to view modern public schools as an unacceptable danger and risk to their children, both spiritually, mentally and physically.

However, on a historical and principial level, many Christians have asked the question, why public school? Why is that the default position on education in our society? Why do compulsory education laws exist? Why does an elite class of education "experts" have the authority to override parental concerns and teach our children how and what they deem important, and why are public schools so hostile to godly religious instruction? And why is American education so poor today compared with the colonial era, for example? 

[See other threads on this board about the history of Puritan education for children, the PCA and Southern Baptists proposals to require parents to abstain from sending their children to public schools, etc.]

Samuel Blumenfeld's _Is Public Education Necessary?_ provides a good historical overview of statist education in America. He traces compulsory education laws back to the fruit of socialist educator Horace Mann in the mid-19th century who used the Prussian totalitarian school system as his model. It is true that Puritan New England had the Old Satan Deluder Act of 1647, which called for towns to provide teachers to ensure that all children could read and write (but did not require compulsory attendance and it specifically asserted that the primary responsibility for educating children rested with parents). Socialism, however, argues that children belong primarily to the state, and it is the state which has the primary duty to ensure that children are educated, not parents. I credit the New England Puritans with good intentions gone awry; I do not credit Horace Mann and his followers with good intentions, and the results should be obvious to observers of the effects of public education today, morally and mentally.

The tenth plank of the Communist Manifesto (not to mention the Humanist Manifesto and the Baha'i Faith, of which I used to adhere) calls for universal public education. This is predicated on the paternalistic philosophy of government which asserts that the sphere of civil government's authority overrules that of parents from the cradle to the grave. 

In contrast, when the Bible speaks of education (Deut. 6.6-9; Prov. 22.6; Eph. 6.4; etc.) its charge is always directed to parents, not to the civil government. Nowhere in Scripture do we see the responsibility of childrens' education given to civil magistrates. The family is the sphere to which a child's education belongs, not the state. 

That being the case, parents have a duty to ensure that their children are given a _Christian_ education. It is not sufficient to say that parents can send their children to public school as long as they are involved in the PTA, or ask questions about their school assignments. It is not sufficient to give statist godless educators control of their childrens' education for 8 hours a day and then try to undo the damage when the children are at home. Public education followed by nightly catechism is not consistent with the charge that parents are to raise their children in the nuture and admonition of the Lord. 

Since the duty to ensure a godly education for children rests with parents, it is most natural for this to be accomplished by the parents themselves. That is why homeschooling was the norm throughout human history until the 19th century. As strange as that sounds to modern ears, the normal pattern of education was that it began in the home and the primary educators were the father and mother of the child, until such time as tutors and professors were needed. Kindergaarten was first instituted in Germany in 1837. Compulsory statist education laws soon followed and homeschooling went the way of the dinosaur for about a century, until parents began to reassert their authority in the sphere of education, and some went to prison rather than send their children to godless public schools. This led to the founding of groups like the Home School Legal Defense Association and the Alliance for the Separation of School and State, and a gradual overhaul of compulsory education laws to allow for religious and other exemptions. 

I myself have never encountered anyone who believes in homeschooling yet says that the parent can never delegate educational responsibilities to others. On the contrary, the homeschooling movement, as I have experienced it, relies heavily on networking, that is, parents look to other parents to provide instruction in special areas for which they themselves are not equipped. Tutoring is usually encouraged, at least in my experience. Private Christian schooling is also viewed as a good thing. The modern homeschooling movement often argues that the setting of a child's education should be left up to the parents' informed choice, not mandated by the state. Thus, homeschooling, tutoring and Christian schooling are all options supported by the homeschooling movement. 

The important thing for homeschool advocates is that civil government does not have a prima facie claim to superior knowledge or authority in the realm of childrens' education. Rather, the default position of responsibility rests with parents, who may certainly delegate as they see fit, but must oversee and ensure a sound education, something that is generally not possible with public schools. 

I have heard the argument that "I went to public skool and it didn't do any harm to me" (humorous spelling intended in a light-hearted way). Can some people make their way through the American public school system and come out with a good education? Certainly. Most people, I would argue, from personal and observed experiences, do not get that result, however. Parents relinquish a huge amount of authority once their children cross through the school doorway. Parents who employ Biblical corporal discipline are especially vulnerable to the reaching grasp of the state. 

I have also heard the argument that finances are the reason why Christian parents have to send their children to public schools. Certainly, it is troublesome that Christian homeschool parents pay taxes which are used for public education _as well as paying for their own homeschool expenses_. I would not sugarcoat the effort and expense that is involved for parents who homeschool. At least one parent must stay home, and our society is certainly geared towards the norm in which both parents work outside the home. But poor or rich, college educated or not, single parent home or not, all things are possible through God, and the means that he has provided, including the church. Colleen has commented before in other threads on her experiences and observations as to the ways that poor and single parents have found to surmount the difficulties and accomplish the God-given responsibility of providing a Christian education in the home or private school for their children. All of the excuses I have heard as to why this can't be done or why it is wrong to not allow for some parents to send their children to public school because of "necessity" simply don't wash. 

The general experience of children in public schools is not consistent with the Biblical duty of parents to give their children a godly education. The best of exceptions to this rule cannot override the principle that education belongs primarily to parents, not primarily to the state. Moreover, public schools are in fact hostile to godly religious instruction because, despite the claims of their advocates to the contrary, they cannot be neutral. There is simply no religious neutrality with respect to education, and education cannot be separated from religion. Thus, parents must do as God has commanded and ensure that their children are trained and instructed according to godly principles, which means parents should not send their children to be educated by the state, but should rather be teachers themselves or provide tutors or private teachers who will educate their children in the Lord.

Again, to clarify, the homeschooling movement seeks to reclaim parental authority over childrens' education from the state. It is not - unlike the statist position - saying that "one size fits all." Rather, it says that children are the stewards of parents not the state, and parents must educate their children in the Lord, which naturally begins in the home, and if it extends outside the home, parents are still the ones with primary oversight and responsibility to ensure a Christian education for their children.


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## blhowes (Feb 1, 2006)

While we're on the subject of homeschooling, I thought I'd ask a practical question about the homeschooling curriculums that you use and how 'parent friendly' they are. Here's what I mean:

I agree that its the parent's responsibility to education their children and to have the final say about what their child should/shouldn't be taught. The authority of the state shouldn't trump the authority of the parent.

I don't think, though, that by virtue of a person being a Christian, that that necessarily means that the parent is more qualified to teach their children than others outside of the family, teachers in the public school for example. I'm thinking primarily about subjects not 'religious' in nature, like mathematics or electronics or some other area of science. (and I'm aware that all areas of education shouldn't be considered 'religious' vs 'secular', but they all fit together seemlessly).

Here's what I'm getting at. Let's say you have a person who basically squeaked by when they were in school, or they had learning problems in some subjects, trigonometry for example. They didn't really understand the subject years ago when they went through the public school, and now they're faced with the 'responsibility' of teaching that subject to their children. The parent is either ill-prepared or not as qualified to teach trigonomety as a teacher whose major was in mathematics and excelled in math.

My impression is that homeschooling curriculums are even more rigorous than what's taught in public schools. What mechanisms do the homeschooling curriculums have to help the parent teach their children trigonometry, or whatever? If the child says, "Mom (or dad), I don't understand this. Can you explain it to me?"... the parent sits there with a blank look on their face, wondering what to say next.

Are the homeschooling curriculums designed so that any parent should be able to teach any subject to their child and be able to answer any question, or would the parent be expected to tap into a homeschooling network outside of their family to answer questions about things they don't understand?

[Edited on 2-1-2006 by blhowes]


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 1, 2006)

Several answers/options to that...

1) the reason for co-oping...when students come together for one day a week and are taught by someone who has abilities, sometimes even an expert, in that field.

2) some families start opting for video instructing in the upper levels for those particular subjects (ie trig and chem)

3) many parents have found that they are now learning what they weren't able or willing to "back then". Many times it wasn't necessarily their inability as a student, but rather the inability of the teachers they had in school. I had a totally inept algebra teacher in highschool...only those that had parents to assist them at home passed...the rest of us failed. However, I picked up Algebra right off the bat this past autumn while attending college classes. It's never too late to learn...and hey, I'm ahead in timing...my oldest is only 9yrs! BTW, he enjoyed standing over my shoulder and asking questions while I did MY homework! I've kept my book and my solutions manual. The thought processes of many homeschooling families is that learning and education NEVER ceases...we want to instill that and the love for it into our children.


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## Scot (Feb 1, 2006)

I have this video series. I think it's excellent. He answers alot of questions/concerns concerning the topic.

http://tinyurl.com/8eeg7

[Edited on 2-1-2006 by LadyFlynt]


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## ReadBavinck (Feb 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Puritanhead1981_
> I think parents have gotten sucked into thinking that only the "pros" can educate children.



Sometimes only the "pros" can educate children (or anyone). As a professional cellist and professional teacher I think it would be impossible for a parent to teach their kid how to play a string instrument well without the help of a professional. Learning to play instrument is no easy task. Today I have some 4th graders working on "Old MacDonald" These are just some of the things they are thinking about:

1) Interpreting a new and sophisticated system of symbols
2) Applying that interpretation into simultaneously smal and large physical movements
3) Putting their L.H. fingers in exactly (within milimeters) the right spot
4) Holding their bows in a specific way
5) Using only the muscles needed and relaxing the others in all parts of their body
6) Using their ears to detect and correct errors
7) Bowing in a particular stlye and place
8) Holding the instrument a specific way
9) Using a correct LH playing position
10) Doing all of the above in rhythmically and in tempos
11) Doing all of the above with 5-20 others, exactly at the same time

Learning how to teach children (or adults) to perform a such a complicated task is not easy. Many teachers struggle for years even though they may be excellent musicians themselves. A good music teacher must be both an excellent musician and an excellent teacher. Some are only one, some are neither. And both parts of the job are not easy to come by.

As a teacher I use countless numbers of strategies to accomplish the task. Learning and using these strategies effectively has taken thousands of hours. Meanwhile I must draw on my musicianship and work as a cellist which has been developed over 14 years of practice.

Many people recognize this and that is why they pay me a professional level fee to teach their children and sometimes to themselves.


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 1, 2006)

CJ...that is very different as your are speaking of a specialization.

Many kids coming out of highschool can't even do basic algebra...and yet, homeschool kids, regardless of the parents education, are able to this and beyond.

Education at this stage (grammar, dialectic, and rhetoric) is for the purpose of instilling basic knowledge and a capability for, if not love of, futhur learning. I can go in-depth into history in a way that the public and private schools can't. I can also encourage areas of interest, which public and private schools have no time for. If your view is that teachers can teach their students just fine...then if we as their former students learned anything, can't we in turn teach our own children...or does that also require courses in psyc and crowd control (though we don't have crowd control problems in the home)?

As for discussions I am hearing from public school teachers on another board...some schools are dropping social studies and science so they can spend 7hours a week just on test-prep for the state tests. These students aren't being scored individually...these are the NCLB tests that schools either pass or fail and lose money over. So where are the schools priorities??? Even the teachers are frustrated due to not being permitted to TEACH!

On another board the title of a thread was "I'm tired of doing work for the PS"...she is having to fill out lists and logs that the teachers are supposed to be doing. She is spending so much time helping her son do research, homework, and gathering of materials for projects, then the projects themselves....that she might as well be homeschooling as she is the one actively teaching him anyhow. He spends all day in school, then all evening and weekend doing school. I do school with my children during the day...boom, done. Then we have time as a family and other activities.

If nothing else, teachers should be happy we are taking part of the load from them...but no, the mighty dollar rules. Even though I pay my taxes, the schools only get it based on per head in the system. We are talking an average of $5000 per child per year. I homeschool ALL my children for less than that and they receive more personal attention, better curriculum, a love for learning, and a better education than the PS can provide. I guess I could add up my utility and food bills to mimic the bills of PS and still it wouldn't come to that. Oh, yeah...right, I'm not being paid or given insurance. Well, actually if you think about it...I'm being paid in a manner that ppl wouldn't believe. As for insurance, our family relationships are even tighter due to homeschooling. My children will be my social security. This is how I was raised. Not a single grandparent or great grandparent has died in a nursing home yet, except one and that was due to circumstances beyond the family's control (basically the state refused to release her to another state). So, I personally feel I have alot to offer and gain in comparison to ps teachers. Then throw in that, yes, I believe this is what God has called for us to do.


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## Puritanhead1981 (Feb 1, 2006)




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## PuritanCovenanter (Feb 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Scot_
> Homeschooling.
> 
> As far as evolution goes, we've told our oldest daughter what people believe concerning it. The first time that I explained it to her, she busted out laughing. It was one of the most ridiculous things she'd ever heard.



Public School and picky. I moved back to Speedway because the School system where I lived North of Indy was into the Clinton Outcome Based stuff. 
As far as evolution goes, my kids all laugh at evolution and critique it in school openly. Some or our teachers do also. We have a good school system. I love being involved with the public schools because I have had so much access to it and the kids. I was even a teachers aid for about 3 years. And I was not silent. Even about the civil war. This was my first year not working with the school. Every time I go in I am goaded to come back by the teacher I use to help.

[Edited on 2-2-2006 by puritancovenanter]


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## ReadBavinck (Feb 1, 2006)

Don't get me wrong. I hate our public education system. It is a huge waste of time and money. Depsite (and because of) working for public schools I will not send my kids to a public school. I also think the way we teachers are trained is a joke.

I recently completed my teacher education at supposedly one of the best colleges for this in the country. My opinion is that much of what I learned was a joke. Many assignments and readings were shallow. Much of what I learned came from a naturalistic, chaotic worldview which resulted in weak arguements and fallacious theory.

The worst of it is that I NEVER heard of the Classical Education model until I came accross a brouchre for a Classical Christian School at the church I am now attending. That's ridiculous! And it made me really angry.

After discovering the classical model and becoming convinced of the need for it and solid Christian education, not just "scrubbed up public schools" (Lady Flynt), I became a strong advocate for both. I also came to believe, like Machen, that public schools are a necessary evil--and not something I wanted to be a part of. I put a lot of effort into finding employment in one of several Classical Christian schools in the Valley (Phx. Metro). Yet, despite being offered jobs and my frustration with public schools, and our willingness to sacrifice, I had to turn them down and go work in a public school. The reason: these schools are not set up to support a young family with the husband as the sole bread winner. (BTW only one was Reformed).

I wish our Christian education systems (i.e. schools or home-school networks) were supported more.

All that being said, there is a great deal of skill involved in laying out a quality curricullum and in devising strategies to meet the objectives. For these parents would be wise to turn to professionals for help.


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## matt01 (Feb 1, 2006)

Montessori: For the early years...


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## RamistThomist (Feb 1, 2006)

If God blesses me with children, I plan to homeschool. I see Christian schools as a viable alternative, though. 



> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> [(though the *rabid* wing of the home schooling movement would disagree), I respect the choices that each family makes.



Foaming at the mouth, baby!

[Edited on 2--1-06 by Draught Horse]


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## Puritanhead (Feb 1, 2006)

Either Christian schools or homeschooling, or some combination thereof... I cannot be more specific than that.


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## cupotea (Feb 1, 2006)

I live in China, by law Chrisitian school is banned.

We have a certain underground Christian school run by a charismatic church, the running of the school is in line with that church's taching?

Shall I send my kid to this school or home school him?

[Edited on 2-2-2006 by duncan001]


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## SolaScriptura (Feb 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by duncan001_
> Shall I send my kid to this school or home school him?



I must say that I am pleasantly surprised that homeschooling is even an option in China!


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## Romans922 (Feb 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> Homeschooling. Parents are to raise their children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. It is an abdication of that God-given responsibility to place children in the hands of the godless statists who run public schools. Christian schools are good. But it is a special blessing and a privilege, as well as an awesome responsibility, to teach one's own children.



I will send my children, when the time comes, through public school. I have seen too many sociological problems with homeschoolers.

Also, I believe the education that one receives from a public school prepares them enough for college. 

This does not mean I won't teach my children. We are called to teach our children the ways of the Lord. I know that many parents have failed at this and I will see to it, by God's grace, to to bring my children up in the ways of the Lord. However, I also see the need for my children to be among, not of, the world. If they have no experience in the world, they will not know how to live in it. Also, it will be a great ministry for them to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I am in full support of Kevin Carroll. 

Question: Doesn't home schooling come directly from theonomists? (This has no bearing on my view of homeschooling or why I will do what I do).

[Edited on 2-2-2006 by Romans922]


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## Pilgrim (Feb 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Romans922_
> 
> 
> I will send my children, when the time comes, through public school. I have seen too many sociological problems with homeschoolers.
> ...



As I indicated in an earlier post, I'm not dogmatic on this issue. But I must say, you must not know much about public schools to not be aware of "sociological problems" there, and that they are far worse on avg. than homeschoolers. If it's not a war zone, then you have secular humanism taught as gospel. Private schools' track records are much better on college prep too. 

Homeschoolers come from all backgrounds, not just theonomy. Some of the early court cases were anabaptist types. Others are libertarians, etc.


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## cupotea (Feb 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by SolaScriptura_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by duncan001_
> ...



Yes, but you must go underground (and many people have done so, and they are not necessiarily Chrisitans!)


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## PuritanCovenanter (Feb 1, 2006)

I have experienced some problems with homeschooled children as well as Christian Schooled children being immature, very niave, and overly Mommyish. When let loose they went loose and came undone. I have also seen others do extremely EXTREMELY well. There is no guarantee either way. God calls and quickens. 

When we do obandon the Public arena who is there to help protect the younger youth. I have had a lot of influence and still do with the kids and parents I have been involved with. It is to bad that many take a holy huddle approach to things and claim their way is the best. I am a father. I am responsible for my kids education. Not anyone else. So I am invloved. It also helped me be invovled with others who would have had no Gospel influence during this part of their lives.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?


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## RamistThomist (Feb 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Romans922_
> Question: Doesn't home schooling come directly from theonomists? (This has no bearing on my view of homeschooling or why I will do what I do).
> 
> [Edited on 2-2-2006 by Romans922]



Not really. 9 out of 10 homeschoolers are baptists and generally not theonomic. The State denies the Lordship of Christ and implicitly will teach our children to do so. Of course, there are godly school systems in the rural south, but only because the ACLU hasn't deemed them "big fish" yet. I am sort of from the area Chris Poe mentioned and he is correct in his analysis.


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## Puritanhead (Feb 1, 2006)

I don't see how a professed Christian in my generation could go say he would want to send his children to those secular secular humanist indoctrination centers. Many Christians say they would get private education, finances permitting... and their heart is averse to public schools, but their gumption is lacking. Though, I could understand finances as a consideration, particularly with a large family.


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## kevin.carroll (Feb 1, 2006)

The flip side is that homeschooling/Christian schooling fosters a modern monasticism. We cannot be salt and light to a world with whom we have no contact. That's my biggest beef with both and all I will say on the subject.

As I said earlier, I respect the choices each family makes, which is far less than most ardent (notice I didn't say rabid?) homeschoolers will do. I had a ruling elder in a church tell me in public that I was in sin because my kids went to public school. The word "moron" kept wandering around in my mind, looking for something to connect to.


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## RamistThomist (Feb 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> The flip side is that homeschooling/Christian schooling fosters a modern monasticism. We cannot be salt and light to a world with whom we have no contact. That's my biggest beef with both and all I will say on the subject.
> 
> As I said earlier, I respect the choices each family makes, which is far less than most ardent (notice I didn't say rabid?) homeschoolers will do. I had a ruling elder in a church tell me in public that I was in sin because my kids went to public school. The word "moron" kept wandering around in my mind, looking for something to connect to.



Kevin and I know each others positions, and those who don't know me personally can probably figure mine out. I like Kevin and enjoy sparring with him in person, so I won't say anything now!


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## Romans922 (Feb 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Pilgrim_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Romans922_
> ...



Accept that I went to public school all my life. Besides it is the father's decision on how to raise his children, whether it be public, private, or homeschool. As long as it is to raise them in the ways of the Lord and to prepare them for when they leave the care of their parents.



[Edited on 2-2-2006 by Romans922]


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 1, 2006)

CJ, please note that I said *some* Christian schools are scrubbed up public schools. There are *some* excellent ones out there as well...but many are pricey and not easily accessable (I know of one in St Louis that would get two thumbs up from me for anyone that could afford it). BTW, we teach classically here at home.

Kevin...my children are not mature enough or ready to be salt and light to the world. My own experience is a testament to that. However, our children ARE being exposed to the world with our guidance and in a more realistic manner than in a classroom of 30 children. And I definately wouldn't want them to have hubby's experience! This is the learning and preparation stage for our children...they don't need the sink or swim mentality until they've first learned to swim. Please note that there is a difference between innocence and ignorance. My children are anything but ignorant about life and people...but they are learning about it at a pace that they can emotionally and mentally handle.


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 1, 2006)

> Also, I believe the education that one receives from a public school prepares them enough for college.



Actually colleges are starting to disagree with you. They have found that homeschooled kids are MORE prepared for college life than public schooled kids. This is due to several factors. Home education mimics college indepence in the academics arena more than public school does. Home schoolers are already exposed socially to a broader band of society and relationships than age segregated public schoolers. Homeschoolers are more apt to buckle down. The list goes on.


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## RamistThomist (Feb 1, 2006)

to Mrs Colleen. The issue of salt and light begs the question as to whether government schools are normative in society. Also, in these discussions one cannot take a few stirling examples of government education and pretend that is representative of all. Quite the opposite is the case. 

I am going to do something I never do: link tag. I refer the interested reader to RC Sproul Jr's basement tapes on homeschooling.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Feb 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> to Mrs Colleen. The issue of salt and light begs the question as to whether government schools are normative in society. Also, in these discussions one cannot take a few stirling examples of government education and pretend that is representative of all. Quite the opposite is the case.
> 
> I am going to do something I never do: link tag. I refer the interested reader to RC Sproul Jr's basement tapes on homeschooling.



Jacob. I agree with Kevin. I have a good school system because of the Parents in the Past. Jumping boat is not the way. Abandoning the System doesn't help those who need help. What are you afraid of, Persecution..... Jesus Promised it if we would live Godly and abide in Him. He is there and He is not silent.
The Parents up at the old school system I lived at eventually won out and Outbased Ed is out. System restored because of those who fought the good fight.
If you are afraid your children won't be taught as well do the homework with them.

[Edited on 2-2-2006 by puritancovenanter]


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by puritancovenanter_
> 
> If you are afraid your children won't be taught as well do the homework with them.
> 
> [Edited on 2-2-2006 by puritancovenanter]



Might as well teach them yourself with the amount that is sent home and the amount of parental involvement usually needed to accomplish tasks and counter the garabage. Thus, what is the point of sending them to school?


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## Romans922 (Feb 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by puritancovenanter_
> ...



Ah, but it is firsthand garbage! They are seeing and interacting with the garbage. They might learn more this way and be better prepared for life after parents, in my opinion.


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## RamistThomist (Feb 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by puritancovenanter_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> ...



Still doesn't answer the question: Is government education normative? If so, where in the Constitution do you see it? Where in the Bible do you see it? Why did it not come along until the 1830s? The Government school system denies the Lordship of Christ.


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## RamistThomist (Feb 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Romans922_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> ...



Or they could deny the garbage altogether. Education is meaningless, it has no foundation for meaning, apart from the Lordship of Christ.


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## Pilgrim (Feb 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Romans922_
> ...



The person who told me they have prayer in school is in an area where United Pentecostals (Oneness) are numerous, moreso than Baptists in some places. So humanism might actually be preferable!


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## RamistThomist (Feb 1, 2006)

Sadly, in this case it is a sign of judgment upon God's people. judgment first begins with the house of God.. I had a chance to talk on the Phone with Sproul Jr on this topic.

Jacob: What denomination are homeschoolers?

RC: Baptists. Everybody is baptists these days.


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## Pilgrim (Feb 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> The flip side is that homeschooling/Christian schooling fosters a modern monasticism. We cannot be salt and light to a world with whom we have no contact. That's my biggest beef with both and all I will say on the subject.
> 
> As I said earlier, I respect the choices each family makes, which is far less than most ardent (notice I didn't say rabid?) homeschoolers will do. I had a ruling elder in a church tell me in public that I was in sin because my kids went to public school. The word "moron" kept wandering around in my mind, looking for something to connect to.



I get and agree with your general point about the hidey-hole mentality and with those who say that sending your kids to public school is automatically sinful. 

But are children to be salt and light? A 5th grader for example? I think some older ones who are mature and maturing Christians could be, like some of the ones at Columbine. (BTW where do you think Cassie Bernall got into wicca?)But there are other ways of being salt and light. Doesn't necessarily have to be in school. They will probably spend more time per day in school than they will with their parents. So it's critical that we "redeem the time" in this area as well. Garbage in, garbage out. 

If a homeschool kid has any kind of problems, it is automatically attributed to home schooling. We obviously don't do that with public school kids. The public schools are a far different place than they were 50 years ago.


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## Puritanhead (Feb 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> Sadly, in this case it is a sign of judgment upon God's people. judgment first begins with the house of God.. I had a chance to talk on the Phone with Sproul Jr on this topic.
> 
> Jacob: What denomination are homeschoolers?
> ...



That is basically true! There is an old tongue-in-cheek mantra about Protestants: The Episcopalians control all the money, the Baptists and Methodists control the numbers, and the Presbyterians control the scholarship.

BTW I heard R.C. Jr. speak last year. He signed my book.


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## Puritanhead (Feb 1, 2006)

Even if I were absentee at work in day-- I'm competent to help the woman of the house devise a home school curiculla... I wouldn't worry about it. You want _socialization_ for yours kids-- let them play with the neighbor kids and be active in church groups!

Many home schooled youth have much greater success in college. And life is better not being _institutionalized_ in those regimented zoos known as publik schoolz, that brings everything down to the lowest-common denominator.

I agree with Jacob and R.L. Dabney...


> "Education is meaningless, it has no foundation for meaning, apart from the Lordship of Christ."


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## Pilgrim (Feb 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> Sadly, in this case it is a sign of judgment upon God's people. judgment first begins with the house of God.. I had a chance to talk on the Phone with Sproul Jr on this topic.
> 
> Jacob: What denomination are homeschoolers?
> ...



There is a pretty solid Christian school here run by an EPC church and I think there are probably more students from Baptist homes than any other group. A lot of the people in the pews of that church are Baptist too.


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## Pilgrim (Feb 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> Sadly, in this case it is a sign of judgment upon God's people. judgment first begins with the house of God.. I had a chance to talk on the Phone with Sproul Jr on this topic.
> 
> Jacob: What denomination are homeschoolers?
> ...



Name dropper.


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## RamistThomist (Feb 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Pilgrim_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> ...




He was very gracious to agree to an interview with me.


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## Pilgrim (Feb 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Romans922_
> ...



There are some, perhaps many godly teachers in the rural south (and maybe not so rural). But I would be extremely hesitant to say that any "school system" is Godly. At best some may be sort of culturally conservative and may promote a cultural christianity. The same could be said about many "Christian" schools. The biggest growth in Christian schools in the South was during "white flight". 

I primarily went to a secular private school (where I was indoctrinated in the virtues of America and the evils of communism by a 6th grade teacher named Clinton, ironically) and a Catholic High School. These were somewhat isolated from the more insidious elements of the public schools but there was still more than enough wickedness to go around.

[Edited on 2-2-2006 by Pilgrim]


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## Pilgrim (Feb 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Pilgrim_
> ...



Cool. Was this for a paper of some sort?


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## PuritanCovenanter (Feb 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by puritancovenanter_
> ...


Government Education is normative now. It has been for a whole bunch of generations. My Grandmother, My Mom, Myself, and my son's have all been involved in it. We are all still alive. 
Our Government denies the Lordship of Christ. So did the Roman Empire. So what. I have taught my kids and their friends about the Lordship of Christ.

As far as learning math I would rather my child learn Algebra, Grammar, and Music from someone who knows it best than by someone who is only normative in its understanding. I believe that most schools do a pretty good job of it. And if my kid wants to become a Doctor I would much rather him learn from a Specialist in the field of method and leading edge technology than from a backwoods Christian practitioner who knows Christ is King.

As I stated above. God quickens and saves. 
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 

There is nothing wrong with making sure your kid gets a good education wherever that may be. I am not suggesting that anyone sacrifice their childrens acedemic life for evangelism. That has to be God's will first. What I am saying is that the field is white. It is worth fighting for because so many kids do learn to read, write, and do Algebra in Public Schools. It is the only way they have available to them. At least we aren't a backwoods jungle country that doesn't educate our children. At least our Children in America have the opportunity to learn. I am grateful I had it. Be Careful of what you become ungrateful for. You may just loose what little you have.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Feb 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Puritanhead_
> I agree with Jacob and R.L. Dabney...
> 
> 
> > "Education is meaningless, it has no foundation for meaning, apart from the Lordship of Christ."


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## Puritanhead (Feb 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by puritancovenanter_
> As far as learning math I would rather my child learn Algebra, Grammar, and Music from someone who knows it best than by someone who is only normative in its understanding.



That is why tutors are there to supplement homeschooling-- I want my kids to learn advanced Latin and the classics.

Besides quite a few high school teachers are not competent to teach mathematics and chemistry.

[Edited on 2-2-2006 by Puritanhead]


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## PuritanCovenanter (Feb 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> 
> Or they could deny the garbage altogether. Education is meaningless, it has no foundation for meaning, apart from the Lordship of Christ.



Plus I don't agree with you here either. If one can not read he can not read God's word when it is presented to him. Grammar is important for that also. I also have a problem with this kind of thinking in that God may not effectually call my child and he will still need to be a functioning member of society. Jacob, God hasn't called everyone and we do need to work and live with the unregenerate. I would much rather have and intelligent well mannered and disciplined person as a neighbor than some idiot.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Feb 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Puritanhead_
> 
> Besides quite a few high school teachers are not competent to teach mathematics and chemistry.



That is a very general statement. I could also say that Mostl Christians are hypocrites and you would have to agree with me. I do believe most School teachers are competent.


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## Pilgrim (Feb 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by puritancovenanter_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> ...



Again, I'm sort of on the fence on this issue. 

But If the public schools in your area produce intelligent, well mannered and disciplined people, they are far different than what is found in many areas of the country.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Feb 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Puritanhead_
> ...



Yeah I know....I have read the booklet.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Feb 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Pilgrim_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by puritancovenanter_
> ...



I believe you are painting with a broad brush also. Some Bad Big City Schools are not the major make up of our Country.


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## RamistThomist (Feb 1, 2006)

> _Originally posted by puritancovenanter_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> ...



Randy, with all due respect you are still assuming what you are trying to prove. Just because "everybody is doing it" and "its always been that way" (at least since 1830) does not make it normative. Normative is doing in accordance to a higher law (or some such variant of a definition). It is to be distinct from descriptive (what is the case, rather than what ought to be the case). You are arguing on the descriptive level. 

Yes, the Roman Empire denied the Lordship of Crhist, and that is precisely why they killed Christians.


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## Pilgrim (Feb 1, 2006)

There are a lot of bad rural schools too.


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## Romans922 (Feb 2, 2006)

I dont get the statement about education being meaningless. If it is meaningless then why are you going to homeschool your children?


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## Puritanhead1981 (Feb 2, 2006)

[/quote]

Randy, with all due respect you are still assuming what you are trying to prove. Just because "everybody is doing it" and "its always been that way" (at least since 1830) does not make it normative. Normative is doing in accordance to a higher law (or some such variant of a definition). It is to be distinct from descriptive (what is the case, rather than what ought to be the case). You are arguing on the descriptive level. 

Yes, the Roman Empire denied the Lordship of Crhist, and that is precisely why they killed Christians. [/quote]



 i could not have said it better so why should I try


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## Romans922 (Feb 2, 2006)

I think also many of you just don't understand the public school system as you think I don't understand it. It quite frankly has much to do with what area you are in. Christian or not, there are many good schools that have over qualified teachers to teach them in the various disciplines and concentrations. That is at least in the northern states. I have heard from many people down here in the south that the school systems aren't that good, especially in some rural and inner city schools (which is to be expected). 

This is a wasted topic and going nowhere, in my opinion. It is up to the father to decide whether or not to homeschool, private or public school their children. If the church wants to involve itself in that decision, then so be it. I don't think it is necessary to do so however.


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## Pilgrim (Feb 2, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Romans922_
> I think also many of you just don't understand the public school system as you think I don't understand it. It quite frankly has much to do with what area you are in. Christian or not, there are many good schools that have over qualified teachers to teach them in the various disciplines and concentrations. That is at least in the northern states. I have heard from many people down here in the south that the school systems aren't that good, especially in some rural and inner city schools (which is to be expected).
> 
> This is a wasted topic and going nowhere, in my opinion. It is up to the father to decide whether or not to homeschool, private or public school their children. If the church wants to involve itself in that decision, then so be it. I don't think it is necessary to do so however.



Yeah, it seems to have run its course.

I think a Christian school is probably the ideal choice followed by homeschooling but wouldn't rule out public school especially perhaps for older more well grounded children. But as noted earlier, good Christian schools (both academically and spiritually/doctrinally speaking) are often few and far between and can be pricey too if they're going to pay the teachers enough to support themselves, a particular problem with secondary schools. 

If the church is really committed to providing Christian education, then schools will need to be supported by our gifts, service, etc. While I understand the sentiment, the calls we have seen recently in the SBC and PCA for immediate withdrawal from the public schools are irresponsible without something viable to move to instead, in my opinion.

[Edited on 2-2-2006 by Pilgrim]


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## Puritanhead (Feb 2, 2006)

> _Originally posted by puritancovenanter_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Puritanhead_
> ...



There is demonstrated deficiency in the quality of instruction in the hard sciences in public schools... most competent to teach it opt for teaching college.

Besides, I don't think it is too much to throw money at education for home schoolers, using third parties as tutors when they get of high school age in order to teach disciplines like chemistry, advanced mathematics and foreign languages. The market provides! Of course, it is entirely possibly to roll past some red tape and let a HS junior/senior that is a home schooler enroll at a local community college to get their biology and chemistry! 

I think home schooling in younger years, and maybe a transition to a Christian private school by HS, would be a good combination.

[Edited on 2-2-2006 by Puritanhead]


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## Puritanhead (Feb 2, 2006)

> _Originally posted by puritancovenanter_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> ...



I think you're being overanalytical Randy. I don't think Jacob is advocating the deprivation of education to _heathen_... He is simply making and general statement and observing that education's highest value is to be found in a Christ-centered focus. Education is very much _worldview_ education, and while mathematics might be objective, the disciplines within social sciences and life sciences are very much battle grounds between Christendom and secular humanism, as far as the instruction goes. 

What did R.L. Dabney say about public education? Anyhow, I'm not so much for putting _prayer_ back in _public_ schools, as taking the _public_ out of schools. What I can do to effectuate that-- in my neck of the woods-- is not enroll my children in publik schoolz!


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## RamistThomist (Feb 2, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Romans922_
> I dont get the statement about education being meaningless. If it is meaningless then why are you going to homeschool your children?



That's not what I said. Education without Christ as the foundation is meaningless. The bible says that all the treasures of knowledge are in Christ. But while I would love to discuss this, it probably belongs in the defending the faith thread.

Randy,
I am not arguing deprivation of education to the heathen. They can do what they want with their own kids. I just don't want government education to ever be mandatory for my own, nor do I want to pay taxes for government education.


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## Puritanhead (Feb 2, 2006)

[align=center]





~Education: Free & Compulsory~ is terse treatise chronicling the ills of compulsory publik educashun, which I can relate to, having been edumocated in publik schoolz myself. Rothbard surmises a history of this insidious institution which has become accepted as if there is no viable alternative. Compulsory state education made its heyday in Europe at the behest of the French Revolutionaries and the autocratic-militarist Prussian state. Many nation-states made use of schooling to crush regional and parochial distinctives, especially in France and Spain to a lesser degree. Many Protestants accepted and advocated compulsory state education in hopes of breaking the back of Catholic parochial schools. Not surprisingly, totalitarian movements in the twentieth-century were staunch advocates of public schooling, so as to indoctrinate and grab the youth. The youth were malleable clay in the hands of totalitarian ideologues. Compulsory public schools in America have become springboards for inculcating the secular humanist worldview into the minds of impressionable children, much to chagrin of Christians and other religionists. As Marquis de Sade surmised, every child is property of the state. Not surprisingly, this is the ethos behind the educating the "whole child" notion espoused by Hillary Clinton, which seeks to supplant the traditional role of family by state participation.

Rothbard's frank commentary illustrates the ill-conceived consequences of the prevailing progressive education doctrines emanating from Dewey and humanist approaches to instruction. Individuality and self-reliance are suppressed. Children are taught to look for truth in the opinion of the majority, rather than in more contemplative and deliberative, self-directed inquiry. Learning the systematic subjects so substantive to understanding those things children are encouraged to have opinions are neglected. In the herd, the prevailing opinion always remains the "lowest common denominator" of the group. I saw first hand the consequences of some of the more asinine progressive education theories (i.e. outcome-based education floating around in the NEA journals) in grade school while growing up. These theories essentially value self-esteem building and interaction over individual achievement. One of my teachers decided to dedicate innumerable grading periods to group assignments where group grades were tagged to each individual. This socialized grading system where four peers collaborated on assignments and group projects often led to a spurious consensus for the finished product. It rewarded the stragglers at the expense of achievers and lead to what economists characterize as the free rider problem. Eventually, a more meritocratic system of individual grades was restored. Thereafter, I managed to get on the honor roll when the teacher stopped utilizing evaluation methods aptly summed up by the Marxist quip, "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs."



> "We don't need no [public] education! We don't need no thought control! ... Teacher leave those kids alone!"
> -Pink Floyd.



<iframe src="http://rcm.amazon.com/e/cm?t=puritan-20&o=1&p=8&l=as1&asins=0945466226&fc1=000000&IS2=1&lt1=_blank&lc1=0000ff&bc1=000000&bg1=ffffff&f=ifr" style="width:120px;height:240px;" scrolling="no" marginwidth="0" marginheight="0" frameborder="0"></iframe>[/align]


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## Puritanhead (Feb 2, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Romans922_
> I dont get the statement about education being meaningless. If it is meaningless then why are you going to homeschool your children?



See if you were home schooled you would have heightened analytical skills and comprehension, and you wouldn't be so overanalytical and misread statements.


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## Puritanhead (Feb 2, 2006)

The Rise and Fall Government Education by Douglas Wilson.


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## RamistThomist (Feb 2, 2006)

Interesting historical note, which will show you how benevolent the government was in the sixties and seventies. RJ Rushdoony wrote _The Messianic Character of American Education_ showing the statist presuppositions of the system. This book was the catalyst in the homeschool/christian school movement. THere was a government backlash. Agents began appearing at Christians homes, confiscating the chirldren and taking the parents to trial. Greg Bahnse and Rushdoony, champions of the faith and of liberty, began testifying in court for the right of parents to determine their children's education. In short, they massacred the opposition in debate. Actual transcript below:

(Bahnsen has finished making his case in court)
ACLU Lawyer: Judge, I honestly don't know how to answer this guy.


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## Puritanhead (Feb 2, 2006)

When I think about it... apart from some rudimentary reading and arithmetic in my formative years, I never gained much from education in schools. Sometimes, a year of public school will actually make you stupider. Some things I had to unlearn because they were WRONG! I'm largely SELF-EDUCATED!!! That is where I learned history, politics, jurisprudence, geography.

I got the highest grade of my entire Junior class on my U.S. History test... I studied every bit of fifteen minutes, and was already well read in the subject matter... What I didn't know, I used induction to eliminate the improbable multiple choice questions.

Learning is it's own reward. I hope to impart that in my kids. And I want to give them something I never got-- a structured, interdisciplinary Christian classical education and have them learn Latin in their youth.

:bigsmile:


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## kevin.carroll (Feb 2, 2006)

WWCD? (What would Calvind do?) Would he run away from secular education, or seek to reform it from within?

For those who asked about kids being salt and light, did Jesus put an age limit on it?


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## Puritanhead (Feb 2, 2006)

> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> For those who asked about kids being salt and light, did Jesus put an age limit on it?



You're fallaciously begging the question (petitio principii), and making an implicit spurious dichotomy where it is only possible to be a 'salt and light' by socializing in public schools.



And I suspect Calvin would be ran out of Geneva today, or most goverments in the United States... not much room for being a reformer when you're not in position to effectuate change, is there? Better to separate.

[Edited on 2-2-2006 by Puritanhead]


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## Romans922 (Feb 2, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Romans922_
> ...



Ah, sorry.

I have no problem with that statement. That will be the same if I send my kids to public school, christian school, or homeschool. I will teach my children the ways of the Lord (e.g. Christ) and that He is the foundation of all things. We are talking about sin --> Christ, we are talking about science --> Christ.


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## Anton Bruckner (Feb 2, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Puritanhead_
> When I think about it... apart from some rudimentary reading and arithmetic in my formative years, I never gained much from education in schools. Sometimes, a year of public school will actually make you stupider. Some things I had to unlearn because they were WRONG! I'm largely SELF-EDUCATED!!! That is where I learned history, politics, jurisprudence, geography.
> 
> I got the highest grade of my entire Junior class on my U.S. History test... I studied every bit of fifteen minutes, and was already well read in the subject matter... What I didn't know, I used induction to eliminate the improbable multiple choice questions.
> ...



Not to disgrace public education, I also really, really began to be educated after consuming reformed materials.

From Listening to R.C Sproul, I got introduced to Plato, Augustine, Luther and Calvin. And as Jacob would say, "My thought pattern became synthesized". Only after my thought pattern became synthesized that I could properly process what I learnt in my formative years.

Because of this, I already have a list of books that I want my son to read before he goes to college, instead of having to wait until he becomes 24 to restart the process all over again.

What is interesting about reading Plato, Augustine, Luther and Calvin on your own, is that you actually read the whole work as opposed to reading snipets in a philosophy class.


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## Ivan (Feb 2, 2006)

I concur with the two previous posts. I don't think I really started learning until I went to college and that was a secular college at that! However, I was taught there to think for myself, which lead to a lot of interesting discussions in the classroom (I think the professors liked me because they didn't have to teach as much!). Yet, overall, I believe the most I've ever learned was from my own study and experiences.

[Edited on 2-2-2006 by Ivan]


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## kevin.carroll (Feb 2, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Puritanhead_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> ...



No, I'm responding the comments of those who imply that only adults can be salt and light. Scroll up.


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## Puritanhead (Feb 2, 2006)

"I am afraid that the schools will prove the very gates of hell, unless they diligently labor in explaining the Holy Scriptures and engraving them in the heart of the youth."
-Martin Luther




This poll really isn't even accurate... 

The poll should read as follows:


> *Poll: Your choice of your child's education:*
> The Gates of Hell
> Christian Schools
> Home Schooling
> Other



All I care for is for some combination of private education, and an exclusion of public education-- so if that is under 'Other' than that is my vote.


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## Puritanhead (Feb 2, 2006)

> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> No, I'm responding the comments of those who imply that only adults can be salt and light. Scroll up.



Sorry -- My Apologies -- No disrespect intended.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Feb 2, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Puritanhead_
> "I am afraid that the schools will prove the very gates of hell, unless they diligently labor in explaining the Holy Scriptures and engraving them in the heart of the youth."
> -Martin Luther


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 2, 2006)

No one stated that children can't be salt and light. But seeing as they are children, they should do so under guidance and exposure at levels they are capable of handling. My children are salt and light. They just are not in the public schools. I do not believe God would have me place them under the tutelage of secular teaching. They have had friends that go to public school...our FAMILY, not just children, have been salt and light to them.


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 2, 2006)

Basically what I am seeing here is an "all or nothing" view of homeschoolers. As pser's, you state that you can have the best of both. Yet, you reject that homeschoolers can have all the pros of homeschooling and still be socialized (though we've proven homeschoolers are many times just as or more social) or be "salt and light" (which they can be and are everyday). I can't tell you how many homeschoolers are involved in voluntary services (as they are not bogged down by homework and generally have a flexible schedule), political aspirations (how many pser's are able to actively be involved at their state congress?), and other such forms of extending themselves. The YMCA generally loves us as we sign up for day classes, lessening their class load in the evening...the stories could go on that I have heard from business owners and others in society. I have rarely gotten the attitudes against homeschooling from ppl in normal society than I have heard on this board. And yet you claim that we aren't being salt and light??? I beg to differ...just in a much different and, personally, more appropriate manner (given they are CHILDREN and part of a family unit).

[Edited on 2-2-2006 by LadyFlynt]


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## Gregg (Feb 2, 2006)

What catagory would vocational/technical schools fall under for somebody who may wish to persue a trade?


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## RamistThomist (Feb 2, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Gregg_
> What catagory would vocational/technical schools fall under for somebody who may wish to persue a trade?



I heartily recommend the idea. I put it under the same category as college--at this level its your choice, not the government's.


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## Gregg (Feb 2, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Gregg_
> ...



But some vo/tech schools start at the high school level also.


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## Puritanhead (Feb 2, 2006)

Some people on the board didn't learn what makes straw man arguments fallacious, while pursuing their mediocre public educations.
:bigsmile:







_ad hominem_


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## Anton Bruckner (Feb 2, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Puritanhead_
> Some people on the board didn't learn what makes straw man arguments fallacious, while pursuing their mediocre public educations.
> :bigsmile:
> 
> ...


you're in a good mood today.


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## kevin.carroll (Feb 2, 2006)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> Basically what I am seeing here is an "all or nothing" view of homeschoolers. As pser's, you state that you can have the best of both. Yet, you reject that homeschoolers can have all the pros of homeschooling and still be socialized (though we've proven homeschoolers are many times just as or more social) or be "salt and light" (which they can be and are everyday). I can't tell you how many homeschoolers are involved in voluntary services (as they are not bogged down by homework and generally have a flexible schedule), political aspirations (how many pser's are able to actively be involved at their state congress?), and other such forms of extending themselves. The YMCA generally loves us as we sign up for day classes, lessening their class load in the evening...the stories could go on that I have heard from business owners and others in society. I have rarely gotten the attitudes against homeschooling from ppl in normal society than I have heard on this board. And yet you claim that we aren't being salt and light??? I beg to differ...just in a much different and, personally, more appropriate manner (given they are CHILDREN and part of a family unit).
> 
> [Edited on 2-2-2006 by LadyFlynt]



I'm not sure who you are addressing here, though I am part of it. Frankly, I think if you re-evaluate the posts I have made and compare them to the home schoolers' you will find that it is they who have the all or nothing attitude and not myself. I have repeatedly said, I respect a family that chooses to home school, even if I think that many of the premises that underly both home and Christian schooling are flawed to the point of bordering on having an unbliblical view of the Church's role in the world.

But it's still a matter of Christian liberty, and I can live with that. What I cannot live with is the kind of attitude I got from the RE that I referenced earlier.


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 2, 2006)

RE???

Backing up to the basic points...

1) We called to make certain our children receive a Christian education

2) WE are the ones called by God to educate our children...not that it is exclusive, but should not be majorily doled out.

3) there are flaws on BOTH sides of the issue DEPENDING upon who you are on either side.

4) children are not mandated to be an extension ministry of the church...they are to be trained

[Edited on 2-2-2006 by LadyFlynt]


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## Puritanhead (Feb 2, 2006)

OKAY-- This thread is too controversial, too tense, and like public schools, it needs to be shut down, and in the interim it should have metal detectors to screen all who enter.


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## Arch2k (Feb 2, 2006)

I will be getting married June 3rd, and plan to have children to raise, Lord willing. I have been hard-core home schooling only until somewhat recently, when I have been persueded that Classical Schooling can be beneficial as well. This in no way alleviates the responability of the parents to raise their children in the Lord, yet utilizes the gifts of others to teach Latin, Logic etc. etc. 

I have substitute taught at the Classical School of Wichita which is not an extension of the state or church, but does make the following statement:



> At Classical School of Wichita our supreme desire is to glorify God by affirming God´s place at the center of all we think, say, and do, and thus, we affirm the God-centered nature of all creation.
> 
> *We further desire to possess and teach a Christian worldview in which the Lordship of Christ over all of life is professed and practiced.*
> 
> We aim to graduate young men and women who think clearly and listen carefully with discernment and understanding; who reason persuasively and speak precisely; who are capable of evaluating all human knowledge and experience in the light of the Scriptures; and who do so with eagerness in joyful submission to God.



In their "Benefits" link, they give the reasons for Classical Schooling:



> Benefits of a CSW Education:
> God is honored
> 
> At CSW our supreme desire is to glorify God by affirming his place at the center of all we think, say, do, and thus, we affirm the God-centered nature of all creation. We further desire to possess and teach a Christian worldview in which the Lordship of Christ over all life is professed and practiced. Education from a distinctively Christian perspective has a long history in the West, and we are seeking to learn from and build on this rich heritage that God might be glorified in our own day and days to come.
> ...



I would still like to be the primary teacher of my children, that is in the most important area of life, the Scriptures. I desire that my children be Godly men and women, and the best way I can think is teach them Christ is Lord. With Classical Schooling, they will be hearing the Kingship of Christ at Home, in Church and in a private schooling system which emphasizes grammar, logic and rhetoric in all areas of education.


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## Romans922 (Feb 2, 2006)

> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> ...


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## kevin.carroll (Feb 2, 2006)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> RE???
> 
> Backing up to the basic points...
> ...



Ruling Elder.

As I said before, and confirmed by your last post, HS's (especially) misuse Deut. 6 to justify homeschooling. It is simply interpreted incorrectly. Deut. 6 is addressed to the Covenant Community (not the family) and is referring to religious instruction (not the three R's).

But there's no discussing it, because the average homeschooler's emotions are too tightly bound up with their decision to homeschool. I applaud your desire to see your children get a Christian education, even if I disagree with your methodology. Further discussion on this would be 

[Edited on 2-2-2006 by kevin.carroll]


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## blhowes (Feb 2, 2006)

18.18% public schools
18.18% Christian schools
48.48% Homeschooling
15.15% Other

That's mainly what I was curious about. Thanks.


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## Puritanhead (Feb 2, 2006)

6 (17.65%) _The Very Gates of Hell_ 
6 (17.65%) Christian Schools 
17 (50%) Home Schooling 
5 (14.71%) Other


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## Semper Fidelis (Feb 2, 2006)

If anyone has never read Edersheim I commend his works to you. From _Sketches of Jewish Social Life_:


> There can be no question that, according to the law of Moses, the early education of a child devolved upon the father; of course, always bearing in mind that his first training would be the mother´s (Deu 11:19, and many other passages). If the father were not capable of elementary teaching, a stranger would be employed. Passing over the Old Testament period, we may take it that, in the days of Christ, home-teaching ordinarily began when the child was about three years old. There is reason for believing that, even before this, that careful training of the memory commenced, which has ever since been one of the mental characteristics of the Jewish nation. Verses of Scripture, benedictions, wise sayings, etc., were impressed on the child, and mnemonic rules devised to facilitate the retention of what was so acquired. We can understand the reason of this from the religious importance attaching to the exact preservation of the very words of tradition. The Talmud describes the beau ideal of a student when it compares him to a well-plastered cistern, which would not let even a single drop escape. Indeed, according to the Mishnah, he who from negligence "œforgets any one thing in his study of the Mishnah, Scripture imputes it to him as if he had forfeited his life"; the reference here being to Deuteronomy 4:9 (Ab. iii. 10). And so we may attach some credit even to Josephus´ boast about his "œwonderful memory" (Life, ii, 8).





> Supposing, then, a child to be so far educated at home; suppose him, also, to be there continually taught the commandments and observances, and, as the Talmud expressly states, to be encouraged to repeat the prayers aloud, so as to accustom him to it. At six years of age he would be sent to school; not to an academy, or "œbeth hammedrash," which he would only attend if he proved apt and promising; far less to the class-room of a great Rabbi, or the discussions of the Sanhedrim, which marked a very advanced stage of study. *We are here speaking only of primary or elementary schools, such as even in the time of our Lord were attached to every synagogue in the land.*


If it's good enough for Jesus to be educated outside the home... 

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/edersheim/sketches.pdf

Chapter 8 deals with Education.


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## Romans922 (Feb 2, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Puritanhead_
> 6 (17.65%) _The Very Gates of Hell_
> 6 (17.65%) Christian Schools
> 17 (50%) Home Schooling
> 5 (14.71%) Other



How old are you?


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 2, 2006)

> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> 
> As I said before, and confirmed by your last post, HS's (especially) misuse Deut. 6 to justify homeschooling. It is simply interpreted incorrectly. Deut. 6 is addressed to the Covenant Community (not the family) and is referring to religious instruction (not the three R's).



On point #1 I disagree with you...I believe it was to the families within the Covenant Community...not the community as family.

On point #2 true...but then again it depends on what you view as education. My children's education extends WAY beyond the three R's as does the teaching in the PS. Thus I present history, the sciences, etc all through a Christian worldview and God's Sovereignty and consistency in them as well as giving my children a comparative understanding to the world and worldviews around them.

I also disagree that it comes down to Christian Liberty as Christian psers say. As hsers and even many private schoolers we would state that it comes down to Christian Responsibility. Which would explain the difference in methodology since we each toss the issue into a different category.



> But there's no discussing it, because the average homeschooler's emotions are too tightly bound up with their decision to homeschool. I applaud your desire to see your children get a Christian education, even if I disagree with your methodology. Further discussion on this would be
> [Edited on 2-2-2006 by kevin.carroll]



So are many pser's emotions...to simply put it towards homeschoolers is unjust...and truthfully is perhaps an inaccurate way to put it...we are tightly bound up in our *beliefs*, just as many psers are.

I also disagree with your view on children and certain aspects of training and agree that this discussion has come down to the usual dead horse (honestly, what did any of us expect  ). 

Guess we can put this one to rest on an agree to disagree note and know that the debate will probably always exist in life.

[Edited on 2-3-2006 by LadyFlynt]

[Edited on 2-3-2006 by LadyFlynt]


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