# Smoking—Grounds for Church Discipline?



## WAWICRUZ (Nov 21, 2009)

Thoughts?

I know many have appealed to Spurgeon and his love for cigars as an argument for the morally neutral nature of the practice, and it is debatable whether he did indeed not develop an addiction for the stogie.


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## TimV (Nov 21, 2009)

No, in confessional Reformed churches you can't discipline people for smoking or eating candy.


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## Herald (Nov 21, 2009)

Warren,

There are many, many variables to be taken into consideration when considering our freedom in Christ. It is not a sin to smoke a cigar, drink alcohol, or to eat fattening foods. The mature believer should evaluate his personal, societal, economic, and church family circumstances before engaging or restricting his liberties. For instance, if you suffer from diabetes you may want to take into consideration the effect alcohol and foods high in carbohydrates may have on your body. If your spouse is a recovering alcoholic you may choose to abstain from drinking so as not to be a stumbling block in this area. If the general consensus is, in your local church, that smoking is looked down on, then you may want to check your freedom in this area so as not to draw undue attention to yourself. You may not have the money to buy cigars or fine wine. That plays a part in it too. Or what of self control or motives? If a person possesses an addictive personality they may want to avoid certain practices so as not to be brought under their control. 

Brother, the point is that there is no one answer that covers all circumstances regarding our liberty. We are allowed to enjoy all things that are not expressly prohibited by scripture. Where those liberties can become a snare to others or ourselves, or where they can bring discredit upon the church, then we should carefully evaluate whether our liberty honors God.


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## WAWICRUZ (Nov 21, 2009)

Thank you so much for your edifying reply, Bill.

Thank you, too, Tim.


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## KaphLamedh (Nov 21, 2009)

I don´t either think that smoking is a sin or any kind of ground for discipline. Smoking isn´t very good habit, though. I know that in some churches (they are pentecostal) where you won´t be baptized if you smoking.

I don´t encourage anyone to keep on smoking, but support to quit smoking, although it´s not easy. I smoked over 10 years. I did quit before Jesus saved me.


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## Scott1 (Nov 21, 2009)

You may find helpful some of the earlier threads on church discipline (use the search or advanced search feature upper right, key phrase "church discipline").

This is a substantial topic but a couple points might be helpful in understanding.

Informal discipline is a process that we might say we are involved in without giving it much thought from day to day. It involves personal, self correcting discipline. These are ordinarily, private confidential things without process or follow-up (or even second thought).

It also might involve another person through informal admonition. It might be as simple as a word from the pulpit, preached or taught. We might call that "informal admonishment" and yet it is an aspect of church discipline (as is church government generally). 

The more formal categories might vary a bit in practice, between denominations and local churches, etc. 

The PCA (Presbyterian Church in America) describes five explicitly, and assumes others implicitly:

1) informal admonition
2) formal admonition
3) suspension from Lord's Supper
4) deposition
5) ex-communication

There might be no process involved at all in #1, but there is a specific process that attaches to #2 -#5. #1 - #3 are ordinarily private, known only to the parties directly involved or a very limited circle.

Generally, a sin has to be open and scandalous, something that God causes to become known to church leadership for it to ever be more than a private matter between two people (and sin is always a personal offense against God).

I can't imagine something like smoking amounting to that level, and that's before we even get to whether it is even if it clearly is sin.

And setting aside something like an informal admonishment from the pulpit (e.g. "the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and therefore you should take care of it and not smoke..."), imagine the burden on elders in attending that. While practicality does not form our biblical basis, it does highlight the distraction this might be in congregations where 20% of the people have this habit regularly and another 20% do so occasionally.


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## Rich Koster (Nov 21, 2009)

Herald said:


> Warren,
> 
> There are many, many variables to be taken into consideration when considering our freedom in Christ. It is not a sin to smoke a cigar, drink alcohol, or to eat fattening foods. The mature believer should evaluate his personal, societal, economic, and church family circumstances before engaging or restricting his liberties. For instance, if you suffer from diabetes you may want to take into consideration the effect alcohol and foods high in carbohydrates may have on your body. If your spouse is a recovering alcoholic you may choose to abstain from drinking so as not to be a stumbling block in this area. If the general consensus is, in your local church, that smoking is looked down on, then you may want to check your freedom in this area so as not to draw undue attention to yourself. You may not have the money to by cigars or fine wine. That plays a part in it too. Or what of self control or motives? If a person possesses an addictive personality they may want to avoid certain practices so as not to be brought under their control.
> 
> Brother, the point is that there is no one answer that covers all circumstances regarding our liberty. We are allowed to enjoy all things that are not expressly prohibited by scripture. Where those liberties can become a snare to others or ourselves, or where they can bring discredit upon the church, then we should carefully evaluate whether our liberty honors God.





It is my understanding that a person should be brought under corrective discipline only for_ unrepentant_ sin (as God defines it, not man) after initial formative instruction is ignored. However, this may be too much of a sidebar, don't let it derail this thread.


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## jambo (Nov 21, 2009)

Smoking is a health issue rather than a theological issue. Once you start treating smoking as a matter of church discipline then you embark down a very dangerous path.


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## Honor (Nov 21, 2009)

KaphLamedh said:


> I know that in some churches (they are pentecostal) where you won´t be baptized if you smoking.



yeah put down the stogie before you go under the water... no sense in ruining a perfectly good cigar. sorry I just had a funny mental picture I thought I would share.


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## Reformed Thomist (Nov 21, 2009)

Spurgeon: I'll quit cigars if it becomes excessive.

Parishioner: What's excessive?

Spurgeon: Two cigars at a time.


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## JOwen (Nov 21, 2009)

*Part One: The Law **

THIS Indian weed now wither'd quite,
though' green at noon, cut down at night,
Shows thy decay;
All flesh is hay.
Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

The pipe, so lily-like and weak,
Does thus thy mortal state bespeak
Thou art ev'n such,
Gone with a touch.
Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

And when the smoke ascends on high,
Then thou behold'st the vanity
Of worldy stuff,
Gone with a puff.
Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

And when the pipe grows foul within,
Think on thy soul defil'd with sin;
For then the fire,
It does require.
Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

And seest the ashes cast away;
Then to thyself thou mayest say,
That to the dust
Return thou must.
Thus think, and smoke tobacco.



*Part Two: The Gospel*

WAS this small plant for thee cut down!
So was the Plant of great renown;
Which mercy sends
For nobler ends.
Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

Doth juice medicinal proceed
From such a naughty foreign weed?
Then what's the power
Of Jesse's flower?
Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

The promise, like the pipe, inlays,
And by the mouth of faith conveys
What virtue flows
From Sharon's rose.
Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

In vain th' unlighted pipe you blow;
Your pains in outward means are so,
Till heav'nly fire
The heart inspire.
Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

The smoke, like burning incense, tow'rs;
So should a praying heart of yours,
With ardent cries,
Surmount the skies.
Thus think, and smoke tobacco.

*Ralph Erskine (1685-1752) *


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## Reformed Thomist (Nov 21, 2009)

JOwen said:


> Part One: The Law *
> THIS Indian weed now wither'd quite,
> though' green at noon, cut down at night,
> Shows thy decay;
> ...



That's some fine Puritan tobacco poetry!


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## Pergamum (Nov 21, 2009)

jambo said:


> Smoking is a health issue rather than a theological issue. Once you start treating smoking as a matter of church discipline then you embark down a very dangerous path.



I am not advocating church discipline for smoking, but I do want to say that health issues are theological as well. 

I think this aspect our our daily walk needs to be addressed in our culture since we seem often driven to excesses of food, recreation and addictive behaviors:



> Question 135: What are the duties required in the sixth commandment?
> 
> Answer: The duties required in the sixth commandment are, all careful studies, and lawful endeavors, to preserve the life of ourselves and others by resisting all thoughts and purposes, subduing all passions, and avoiding all occasions, temptations, and practices, which tend to the unjust taking away the life of any; by just defense thereof against violence, patient bearing of the hand of God, quietness of mind, cheerfulness of spirit; *a sober use of meat, drink, physic, sleep, labor, and recreations*; by charitable thoughts, love, compassion, meekness, gentleness, kindness; peaceable, mild and courteous speeches and behavior; forbearance, readiness to be reconciled, patient bearing and forgiving of injuries, and requiting good for evil; comforting and succoring the distressed, and protecting and defending the innocent.
> 
> ...


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## AThornquist (Nov 21, 2009)

I don't think it is sinful to smoke, however I do believe it is sinful to be addicted to smoking. That isn't so much because of the smoking itself though since it would also be sinful to have a computer addiction or Monopoly addiction or any other addiction. If you are dependent on anything other than Christ, it is time to change your lifestyle.


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## jambo (Nov 21, 2009)

There are smokers and there are smokers. For some it is an addiction, for others it a casual pleasure they enjoy from time to time. There are some who smoke out of habit and there are others who smoke when they are stressed out. Although tobacco can be addictive, not every smoker is addicted. Likewise alcohol. Alcohol can be addictive yet many on the PB take alcohol but are by no means addicted to it. 

A person could be addicted to coffee, chocolate, computer games, maybe even the PB! But unless those addictions are causing problems within family relationships or hindering a persons walk with God then I do not believe this is an issue for church discipline

If a person is addicted to anything then they need help and support to overcome the addiction.


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## Archlute (Nov 21, 2009)

I have thought several times in the past that it is somewhat unbefitting sessions to have chain smokers on them. This does not well reflect the attributes of either self-control or respectability that Paul required of elders. I have worked with two sessions, one in the OPC and one in the PCA, who had a chain smoker among them (the kind who has to leave the session meeting, presbytery meeting, or even the worship service several times per hour, and who comes back in smelling like he'd been playing darts at the tavern down the street), and I know that it was a concern for many of the laity and some of the interns, but it was not addressed due to the "smoking is not a sin" card being thrown out there by the other elders. 

I do not believe all smoking to be a sin, but I do believe it always a sin to advance poor pastoral theology on the basis of superficial arguments.


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## Oecolampadius (Nov 21, 2009)

Archlute said:


> I have thought several times in the past that it is somewhat unbefitting sessions to have chain smokers on them. This does not well reflect the attributes of either self-control or respectability that Paul required of elders. I have worked with two sessions, one in the OPC and one in the PCA, who had a chain smoker among them (the kind who has to leave the session meeting, presbytery meeting, or even the worship service several times per hour, and who comes back in smelling like he'd been playing darts at the tavern down the street), and I know that it was a concern for many of the laity and some of the interns, but it was not addressed due to the "smoking is not a sin" card being thrown out there by the other elders.
> 
> I do not believe all smoking to be a sin, but I do believe it always a sin to advance poor pastoral theology on the basis of superficial arguments.



I believe that what you are trying to say is that smoking in itself is not a sin but addiction to smoking, like all kinds of excess, definitely is. If that is what you mean then I wholeheartedly agree with you.

I used to spend lots of time with a fellow believer who is very much overweight. I often accompanied him in his travels and I noticed that it was his frequent habit to buy snacks like shakes, fries and burgers from the drive-through of his favorite fast food. I was concerned for his health and so, I gave him him the advice that perhaps it would be better for him to choose much healthier options and even limit the amount of fast food that he consumed each day. He took offense at this and he told me that I had no right to bind his conscience on what he eats.

As I've tried to explain to him, I wasn't binding his conscience because I was simply giving advice. It wasn't like I was telling him that he was sinning before God. Gluttony definitely is a sin but I know that it isn't up to me to judge whether he was being gluttonous or not. Yet, we also need to be good stewards, not only of the material things that God gives us but also of our bodies.

I am not against smoking _per se_ because I smoke 3 to 6 sticks of cigarette each week. I have even advertised Kretek or Clove cigarettes here on PB. I limit the amount that I indulge in because I am very much aware of the danger of addiction. What I really find distressing is the attitude of some who seem to act as if that good stewardship of our bodies is no longer expected of us since we are at liberty to partake of these things. Liberty is one thing but excess is another. Liberty to smoke tobacco should not be interpreted as liberty to be addicted to tobacco. The same goes with food; liberty to feed upon the bounty which God has blessed us with should not be interpreted as liberty to overindulge and not care for one's health.


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## WAWICRUZ (Nov 21, 2009)

I never knew you smoked, Joel. 

What about smoking as a stress-reliever? Is that somehow a manifestation of depending on another for comfort aside from Christ, hence idolatry? It is true that God uses means to effect His comfort, but may God use tobacco as one of those means?

I smoke as a means of relieving stress, and I do most, if not all, of my smoking in the workplace.


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## Semper Fidelis (Nov 21, 2009)

As I type this, I am smoking a 5 Vegas Miami.


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## Herald (Nov 21, 2009)

As I type this, I am contemplating a good excuse to make a Starbucks run.


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## Andres (Nov 21, 2009)

WAWICRUZ said:


> I never knew you smoked, Joel.
> 
> What about smoking as a stress-reliever? Is that somehow a manifestation of depending on another for comfort aside from Christ, hence idolatry? It is true that God uses means to effect His comfort, but may God use tobacco as one of those means?
> 
> I smoke as a means of relieving stress, and I do most, if not all, of my smoking in the workplace.



 I find it funny that you admit to smoking, yet you are the one who started this thread with the original question of whether smoking was grounds for church discipline. Were you hoping to be disciplined brother?


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## Rich Koster (Nov 21, 2009)

Herald said:


> As I type this, I am contemplating a good excuse to make a Starbucks run.



They do not deliver. Good enough?

-----Added 11/21/2009 at 06:12:39 EST-----



Semper Fidelis said:


> As I type this, I am smoking a 5 Vegas Miami.



I had one of my last pre-SCHIP Romeo & Julietta 1875 Churchills today.


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## WAWICRUZ (Nov 21, 2009)

Andres said:


> WAWICRUZ said:
> 
> 
> > I never knew you smoked, Joel.
> ...



No Christian in a sound state of mind would want to be counted as an unbeliever, brother. 

I'm very much edified by the counsel that I've received from you guys thus far.


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## Pergamum (Nov 22, 2009)

If you smoke to relieve stress, this probably indicates some level of dependancy on this substance.


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## Oecolampadius (Nov 22, 2009)

WAWICRUZ said:


> I never knew you smoked, Joel.
> 
> What about smoking as a stress-reliever? Is that somehow a manifestation of depending on another for comfort aside from Christ, hence idolatry? It is true that God uses means to effect His comfort, but may God use tobacco as one of those means?
> 
> I smoke as a means of relieving stress, and I do most, if not all, of my smoking in the workplace.



I've never really viewed smoking as a stress reliever. It's just something that I enjoy in moderation. I can sometimes feel it acting as a stimulant but I would rather have caffeine if I needed a stimulant.

The Heidelberg Catechism does teach us that our only comfort in life and in death is to be found in Christ but I do not believe that this is to be understood in a way that makes it sinful for one to derive "comfort" from God's providence. When one is suffering physically due to an illness, isn't it "comfort" or relief from pain that one wishes to obtain when one takes pain medication? I think it would be foolish of me to tell a person not to take medication because by doing so, he is no longer taking comfort in Christ.

Stress, when not managed properly, can lead to other things like headaches and insomnia. Research has shown that stress is a contributing factor to heart disease and hypertension. It would be unwise not to find relief for stress. However, I do not think that tobacco is a good stress reliever especially when there is the potential danger for one to acquire heart disease or other conditions.


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## KaphLamedh (Nov 22, 2009)

Honor said:


> KaphLamedh said:
> 
> 
> > I know that in some churches (they are pentecostal) where you won´t be baptized if you smoking.
> ...



Yeah. You can imagine how many young or new Christians has felt that they are 2nd class believers for reason they won´t be baptized if they don´t quit smoking.


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## Herald (Nov 22, 2009)

Let's keep the discussion on topic. If you want to advocate certain liberties, bring it to the Puritan Pub after the Lord's Day is over.

Thanks.


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## Michael Doyle (Nov 22, 2009)

Sorry Bill, I let my liberties interfere with my observance of the Lord`s day. Thank you for your guidance


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## Mushroom (Nov 22, 2009)

Well, I smoke, and habitually to relieve stress, and I hate it. If I had the self-control to not be addicted, it would be another matter, but I know that is not so for me. I've smoked for most of the past 40 years with a few periods of hiatus. As things get more stressful, I smoke more, and things have been pretty stressful for the last few years. When I begin to try to quit, it seems the addiction gets stronger, and I smoke more. It's a hard battle.

So please pray for me, brothers, and if you have any advice as to how to lay this burden down, please share it.


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