# How has the CT (and baptism) position of PB members changed - and why?



## Steve Curtis (Aug 10, 2017)

Over the past weeks, there has been quite a number of threads dedicated to the differing views of covenant theology, and the related question of the proper recipients of baptism. These discussions have gotten a bit intense at times, as proponents of the different views defended what, I am sure, they (we) believe to be the proper biblical position.

Some of us come to our beliefs simply because we accept the tradition in which we were raised at face value. Others have grappled with the meaning and significance of the relevant texts and either formed - or changed - their positions. Several people on these CT threads (myself included) shared that we moved from a credo- to paedo-baptist conviction. I wonder how widespread this move might be - and whether there is a corresponding move in the other direction. In other words, after seriously considering the matter, have people been inclined to maintain their "family tradition," or have they moved to the other side of the debate?

Please share how you arrived at your position.


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## greenbaggins (Aug 10, 2017)



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## hammondjones (Aug 10, 2017)

I was raised Southern Baptist with no explicit covenant theology as far as I can tell (altar calls, emphasis on "decisions", etc.) Actually, my pastor growing up wrote an anticalvinist book. However, after some wandering and even flirting with Open Theism, I joined a PCA church with my wife after college because it was a good and welcoming church. I wasn't Reformed in any sense of the word, big R or little r.

The next year we went to South America to teach in a Christian School, where we attended a local church, which was, of course, in Spanish, which I did not know. So, I was getting very little from Sunday services. I turned to this new-to-me "podcast" technology, and knowing very little about him, started listen to Dr. Piper. It was through his preaching through John that I was convinced of the truth of the doctrines of grace.

At that point, I would say I was TULIP-only baptist, but I started listning to R.C. Sproul's podcast. Those, plus a growing undertanding of the unity of scripture (provided by especially Genesis, Galatians, a few books by modern-day theologians, and this board also), eventually got me (and in time my wife) over the hump to a more fuller Reformed (Westminster) position.

I think a another significant factor which helped my wife and I embrace household baptism was our both having been MKs in Africa, and being exposed to less individualistic cultures, which helped us become comfortable with the idea of covenantal headship within the family.


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## Dachaser (Aug 10, 2017)

kainos01 said:


> Over the past weeks, there has been quite a number of threads dedicated to the differing views of covenant theology, and the related question of the proper recipients of baptism. These discussions have gotten a bit intense at times, as proponents of the different views defended what, I am sure, they (we) believe to be the proper biblical position.
> 
> Some of us come to our beliefs simply because we accept the tradition in which we were raised at face value. Others have grappled with the meaning and significance of the relevant texts and either formed - or changed - their positions. Several people on these CT threads (myself included) shared that we moved from a credo- to paedo-baptist conviction. I wonder how widespread this move might be - and whether there is a corresponding move in the other direction. In other words, after seriously considering the matter, have people been inclined to maintain their "family tradition," or have they moved to the other side of the debate?
> 
> Please share how you arrived at your position.



I was introduced to Christianity through the witness of 2 Southern Baptist Christians, but from there went on to the Assemblies of God, being trained in their institute, and became a teaching Elder. The Lord revealed to me just how wrong some of their position were regarding the work and person of the Holy Spirit, such as in the sign gifts still operating and the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, so moved to a Free will Baptist church. The Lord them moved me to seeing the scriptures from the perspective of His sovereignty in all things, especially in regards to salvation, so became a Calvinist in the mode of a Dr MacArthur. Now, have accepted the viewpoint of Covenant Theology, but from the perspective of the Reformed Baptist position, as still do see the bible supporting believers baptism and the Church being founded by Jesus Himself. I still see myself as being an ongoing work in progress on theology.


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## jw (Aug 10, 2017)

All good paedobaptists are also credo-baptists.

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## Jake (Aug 10, 2017)

Raised SBC. Understanding Covenant Theology led me to embrace paedo-baptism as well. I may have called myself Reformed Baptist somewhere in the middle, but I never actually adopted a particularly Reformed Baptist view of Covenant Theology. I simply was reformed/reforming and still credo-baptist.


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## Parmenas (Aug 10, 2017)

I am not sure if I was converted then, but I began my Christian walk as a four-point Arminian Molinist credobaptist, a disciple of William Lane Craig, in the latter half of 2016. As I began to read A Puritan's Mind and lurk about the Puritan Board, my sympathy for Calvinism grew until the Lord God granted me understanding and I accepted the doctrines of grace. I was a Particular Baptist for a relatively short time until I became a paedobaptist (and Presbyterian) this year, before I joined the Puritan Board.

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## BGF (Aug 10, 2017)

I may be the only "other" vote so far. I don't know where or in what church, but I was baptized as an infant. I was raised primarily in a PCUSA church but was an unbeliever the entire time. In my early twenties I was converted in a Southern Baptist church (imagine your typical evangelical, seeker sensitive congregation) and was baptized again. This second baptism was done more out of ignorance than conviction. At the time of my conversion, even though I was decidedly not in a reformed atmosphere, I came under the influence of reformed thought through the ministry of Dr. R.C. Sproul. I was introduced to him by my father who had some time earlier started down the path of reformed thought. A couple years later we left that church, partly due to schism, partly to theological conviction. We went to my parent's PCA church and have been there for 17 years now. Further study into CT and baptism have thoroughly convinced me of the covenant baptism position. 

So I kind of went paedo to credo and back to paedo.

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## reaganmarsh (Aug 11, 2017)

I was raised in a classical dispensationalist home, and my father was an SBC minister (though recently retired). I came to the doctrines of grace through Piper's preaching, my wife's and father-in-law's patience with my wrestlings, and the help of a godly PCA pastor.

At that point, I transferred from NOBTS to SBTS in Louisville in order to study under Calvinistic men, and there trained in PC/NCT under Dr. Wellum. Upon graduating with my MATS, we moved to take a pastorate in NC, I enrolled in MDiv work online, and I finally had time to process the data dump that is seminary.

I began reading some of the Puritans Dr. Nettles and Dr. Wright were always quoting in class and they were like water to my soul. Catechesis began after our first child was born, and I stumbled across the PB just as PC/NCT was crumbling for me.

The truth and beauty of the COG and confessional Reformed theology began to shine on the pages of Scripture. Several years of baptismal wrestling ensued, but I can say that I am conscientiously a 1689er credobaptist.

I'm thankful for our paedobaptist brethren, though; y'all have taught me a lot!

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## Stephen L Smith (Aug 11, 2017)

Plymouth Brethren to Reformed Baptist


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## Edm (Aug 11, 2017)

I was baptized as an infant in the Episcopal church. Left it in HS and started attending Southern Baptist churches. Struggled with wondering if I should be rebaptized. Never did it because it just never seemed right...left the SBC and started attending and joined a PCA church. Still wasn't studying much at any deep level, but the baptism question wasn't being asked anymore. Moved somewhere wher there was a strong lack of ANY good churches. Found the PB and started reading, looked into a lot of denominations and realized that I was reformed by anyone's standards. Learned a ton on here and in reading all I could and listening to as many good podcasts, sermons etc. I am now committed to Paedobaptism and understand it. Not just a tradition thing.


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## Dachaser (Aug 11, 2017)

Stephen L Smith said:


> Plymouth Brethren to Reformed Baptist


So moved from a pre trib Rapture to historical pre mil, or now A mil?


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## Deleted member 7239 (Aug 11, 2017)

I was raised in the Roman catholic church so when I came to Christ I rejected their whole theology. I became a dispensationalist. I then slowly realized that I may have overreacted in my theology as I read through the whole Bible a few times. Eventually I came to the conclusion that all of the reformers and most puritans couldn't all have this one blind spot in their theology of baptism. 

Trying to figure out what the biblical phrase "In Christ" means helped me toward a covenantal view of scripture. Reading through Galatians 3 one day sent me on a path of understanding the unity of the covenant of grace and the biblical case for infant baptism.


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## Southern Presbyterian (Aug 11, 2017)

Independent, Fundamental, Pre-Trib, Pre-Mill, Believers Full Immersion, Old Scofield KJV, No Tobacco - Alcohol - Dancing - Card Playing - Movie Going - Mixed Swimming, etc, Southern Baptists are going to hell (don't ask me why, they just were), You better be in church every time the doors are open, Casserole Eating Baptist to Presbyterian.

Because it was predestined.

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## Ask Mr. Religion (Aug 11, 2017)

My vote was "always a paedo-baptist". Actually, I came out of Romanism and to Presbyterianism with a short stop in anti-paedo baptism while a So. Baptist.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Aug 11, 2017)

I was born a Calvinist reading the scriptures in a Navy Barracks. I just didn't know that. LOL
I wrote a shorty blog about it here. https://rpcnacovenanter.wordpress.com/2013/02/22/i-was-born-a-calvinist-lol/

My conversion to Reformed Theology after having been a Reformed Baptist happened around 2010 and 2011. 
The Mosaic Covenant Republication discussion turned me and I wrote about that here. https://rpcnacovenanter.wordpress.c...nced-republication-and-mosaic-covenant-study/

And here. https://rpcnacovenanter.wordpress.com/2012/09/14/the-mosaic-covenant-same-in-substance-as-the-new/

I have always tried to understand the scriptures as a whole. I struggled with the congregationalism and Independent spirit of local Churches. The Church of the Bible always seemed to have more Union and Unity than the accountability that was exhibited by Congregationalism and Independency. So I have always thought the Presbyterian form of Government was more scriptural in the New Covenant. Especially since the Judicial law was abrogated in the New Covenant as the Gentiles were grafted into the Church as they came from many Nations. The Church seemed somewhat Hierarchical and Presbyterian in some sense in the Nation of Israel as I saw it.

But the main push for me was when I started to see that the Mosaic Covenant was gracious and not like the Covenant of Works at all. It was so much like the New Covenant. A lot of other Scriptures started to become more clearer to me also after I moved to a Reformed understanding and hermeneutic. Things just seemed more obvious and jelled together in a scripturally self explaining way. As I was always told, the Scriptures are the best interpreter of the Scriptures as the Holy Spirit illumines. The whole Bible for the Whole Church.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Aug 11, 2017)

Just a piece of advice for those who are considering a theological change. Please listen.

I have not had many theological changes in my life. And you should always consider those around you as you seek first His Kingdom. I didn't make my change without seeking advice and listening to it. I really treasure the advice and guidance of my Elders and those in whom have been given authority. After all, God did give us Pastors and Elders to help us and to mature us so that we may all come into the unity that Christ has in mind for His Church. They are given their positions and wisdom to perform a task. And they are gifts to us from God. It takes a lot of humility to listen to them. They may seem incorrect in their conclusions at times but if we listen God does give grace to the humble even if they don't understand things. Because I did listen to my Eldership at College Park Baptist Church I got to raise my 3 boys alone without interference from my departed ex-wife in a State that overly favors women in divorce cases. That was because I did what my Baptist Elders told me to do. God protected us.

When I thought I became convinced of my theological change I conferred with my Elders and the leadership of the Puritanboard. I didn't make an announcement as I was cautioned to not do for a period of time. I had a lot of reading and learning to do. I had a lot of reflecting to do. I had a lot of Reformed Baptist ties and they would be confused if I did it in a rash unthinking manner. The move would also cause some hurt because I had been a defender of the Particular Baptist position and it might have been viewed as a move motivated by wrong motives.

So I did what my Leaders asked me to do. I also was able to reveal my change in a way by inquiring here on the Puritanboard challenging both sides and praying about things as I learned. My RB friends did not get as offended as they could have been. I have maintained my friendships with them. I still have strong ties to the RB Church and I am even supporting work here for RB Churches. I equip them with their theology and support them. Our Reformation Society here has more Reformed Baptist presence than Presbyterian by my estimation. And we have a very good strong African American presence in the group. In fact, now our yearly conference has been put aside and we support a Conference hosted by one of their Churches.

My point is that we need to proceed with caution and listen to our Eldership. Hebrews 13:7,17 are very important when considering a major theological shift.

(Heb 13:7) Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

(Heb 13:16) But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.
(Heb 13:17) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
(Heb 13:18) Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly.


Jas_4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

1Pe_5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

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## Dachaser (Aug 11, 2017)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> I was born a Calvinist reading the scriptures in a Navy Barracks. I just didn't know that. LOL
> I wrote a shorty blog about it here. https://rpcnacovenanter.wordpress.com/2013/02/22/i-was-born-a-calvinist-lol/
> 
> My conversion to Reformed Theology after having been a Reformed Baptist happened around 2010 and 2011.
> ...


Don't Reformed Baptists hold to Reformed theology though? Just kidding , as you posted that about moving from reformed baptist to now Reformed theology.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Aug 11, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> Don't Reformed Baptists hold to Reformed theology though? Just kidding , as you posted that about moving from reformed baptist to now Reformed theology.


You are a good natured funny guy. Love ya.


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## Stephen L Smith (Aug 11, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> So moved from a pre trib Rapture to historical pre mil, or now A mil?


Yes, Dispensational, then Historic Premill, now Amill

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## Semper Fidelis (Aug 11, 2017)

I grew up Roman Catholic (paedobaptist) and then joined a non-denominational Church in the Campbellite tradition in 1994 and was immersed. I never really was a very convinced antipaedobaptist but was ambivalent about it. Even when I joined the PCA in 1998 and then attended an OPC Church for a few years, I sort of thought about paedobaptistism in a sort of purely elective way that didn't really correspond to an understanding of Covenant Theology. That said I became more firmly convinced of it from about 2002 onward.


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## Rich Koster (Aug 11, 2017)

I was raised in a Congregational setting that was an offshoot of a Presbyterian congregation founded after a stir/split about Freemasonry. Went through confirmation class, etc. and drifted away. Fourteen years later, I started from a Fundy local congregation, to Arminian SBC, to 5 point Baptist, to 1689er. The journey from Fundy to 1689er took about 10 years, with a shift toward Reformed thinking around the end of 1998.


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## Dachaser (Aug 12, 2017)

Stephen L Smith said:


> Yes, Dispensational, then Historic Premill, now Amill


I have moved now to a historical pre Mil viewpoint in regards to eschatology.


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## jwithnell (Aug 12, 2017)

Went from a liberal presbyterian church to real presbyterian church, so no change, really, in baptism.


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## Dachaser (Aug 12, 2017)

jwithnell said:


> Went from a liberal presbyterian church to real presbyterian church, so no change, really, in baptism.


Were both you and your Husband raised in a liberal church?


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## Gforce9 (Aug 12, 2017)

Roman as a child, non-denom Willow Creek wanna-be from 21ish to 23ish and a variety of other pop-Evangelical from there, all Baptist. When I heard Covenantal Theology explained, minus the caricatures, the switch to a Reformed church was natural, though going from various forms of Antinomianism with regard to regulation, to the OPC was a system shock. That's one system shock I'm very grateful for!
Baptism was not the issue for me but, rather, Covenantal Theology and the fidelity therein. Randy's and Rev. Buchanan's advice is sound: don't be rash in leaving a church and listen to wise counsel......

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## jwithnell (Aug 12, 2017)

"Were both you and your Husband raised in a liberal church?"

Brian was reared Episcopal and came to Christ in Baptist circles as a young teen.


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## Steve Curtis (Aug 13, 2017)

Thanks, all, for the responses so far. I realized that I didn't share my transition!

I was raised in a non-Reformed Southern Baptist family (though they have all moved, by God's grace, to a deeper appreciation of God's sovereignty - and I have never met a man more committed to Christ than my father). In my late 20's, I began to see the evidences of God's sovereignty as I read through the Bible quite intensely - at the rate of four times a year for several years.

Then, a friend recommended, first, Pink's _Sovereignty of God_, which did not so much reveal new truth but rather confirmed what I was seeing in scripture. Thus, I became a "reformed Baptist," though I didn't have opportunity to join a like-minded church before the same friend introduced me to B.B. Warfield, whose works led me to embrace the theology of the WCF and Presbyterianism, which I have held for more than 20 years now.


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## lynnie (Aug 13, 2017)

I have read so many posts here on this subject that I now consider it to be a non essential, and one where Reformed and Covenantal theologians both have good and valid biblical arguments. I see it as a Romans 14 matter of conscience where we need to accept one another. So many great old dead guys on both sides. (Plus Lloyd-Jones who called himself a church of one- he believed in believer baptism by sprinkling, not immersion.) 

The fact is, both camps generally have a two stage process for full participation of children in the life of the church. Paedos baptize infants but forbid them communion until they are older. Baptists often dedicate them, but reserve baptism until they are older. 

Personally I am swinging towards the position that both sacraments should go together, and even a little baptized child can examine their heart to some degree, enough to take communion. And if the Baptist lets the little kid take communion, why are they not baptized? ( I realized the Reformed Baptists at PB probably do not have unbaptized child communion). 

So anyway, I am "other" in your poll. Either position is biblical, but I think sacraments should be consistent. Baptism and communion go together.....babies ate the Passover meal for paedos; children partaking of communion need to be baptized for credos. 

I'm still thinking about it when these threads come up, and my opinion is probably not set in stone, which I guess is a good thing......


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## Bill The Baptist (Aug 13, 2017)

lynnie said:


> And if the Baptist lets the little kid take communion, why are they not baptized? ( I realized the Reformed Baptists at PB probably do not have unbaptized child communion).



While I have no doubt that this happens, the Baptist Faith and Message, which is decidedly not reformed, specifically states that baptism is a prerequisite for partaking of the Lord's Supper, and so this should not be happening in any Baptist church.


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## lynnie (Aug 14, 2017)

Bill-

Two Baptist Churches in our past, both pastors with an MDiv from WestminsterTS, both excellent preachers and solid Calvinists and excellent one on one counselors. 

Unbaptized kids took communion. I didn't even care because I was too busy fretting about the serious Joyce Meyer influences among the women. 

I don't think it happens where we are now, but a lot of kids are up in the balcony so I wouldn't know. Solid leadership thank God. Just found out one nice lady in the church is an avid fan of Joyce Meyer though. I don't know how people can sit under preaching that has occasionally spoken to the error of the word of faith teachers and not "get it".

I pray a lot


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## PuritanCovenanter (Aug 14, 2017)

lynnie said:


> Personally I am swinging towards the position that both sacraments should go together, and even a little baptized child can examine their heart to some degree, enough to take communion. And if the Baptist lets the little kid take communion, why are they not baptized? ( I realized the Reformed Baptists at PB probably do not have unbaptized child communion).
> 
> So anyway, I am "other" in your poll. Either position is biblical, but I think sacraments should be consistent. Baptism and communion go together.....babies ate the Passover meal for paedos; children partaking of communion need to be baptized for credos.
> 
> I'm still thinking about it when these threads come up, and my opinion is probably not set in stone, which I guess is a good thing......


I usually don't reply to these type of discussions Lynnie. But you have missed a lot of the discussion concerning this issue evidently. The Pedagogical has some argumentation in this. The Ceremonial and Judicial were that. Not the Moral Law. Some things have changed between between the Covenants due to fulfillment. But the recipients as far as familial are the same. Acts proves that in that the promises are for us and our children. There are many other things discussed on the PB concerning this and I thought you followed distinctions. Paedocommunion has been heavily discussed here by good men. Do you want to turn this into a paedocommunion thread? If so, I recommend Reverend Lane Keister on the topic.


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## reaganmarsh (Aug 14, 2017)

Bill The Baptist said:


> While I have no doubt that this happens, the Baptist Faith and Message, which is decidedly not reformed, specifically states that baptism is a prerequisite for partaking of the Lord's Supper, and so this should not be happening in any Baptist church.



I always do my best to "fence the Table," so to speak, in this matter (1 Cor 11.28-30). But before our present call, I'd never served a church where the children weren't basically just allowed to partake whenever, profession of faith or not. 

We desperately need biblical reformation in the SBC.


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## Bill The Baptist (Aug 14, 2017)

reaganmarsh said:


> I always do my best to "fence the Table," so to speak, in this matter (1 Cor 11.28-30). But before our present call, I'd never served a church where the children weren't basically just allowed to partake whenever, profession of faith or not.
> 
> We desperately need biblical reformation in the SBC.



I usually read from 1 Cor. 11 and explain to people that if you are a Christian and you take the Lord's supper, you are partaking in the forgiveness secured by the body and blood of Christ, but if you are an unbeliever who takes the Lord's supper, you are drinking judgment upon yourself and you will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. That usually does the trick.


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## reaganmarsh (Aug 14, 2017)

Indeed, Bill. Amen.


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## zsmcd (Sep 15, 2017)

This is going to be long. 

I was baptized at 14 in a PCA church and honestly never gave much thought to CT or my opinion on baptism for several years. In all honesty, from age 14 to 22 I mainly concerned myself with the doctrines of grace and various other random topics of theology.

I joined the Navy at 19 and drifted through various churches (& chaplains) as I moved _at least_ every year and half, and not always having many options. I found myself at two baptistic Acts 29 churches and then had nondenominational, AoG, PCUSA (one very liberal, one oddly conservative), and SBC chaplains. So, needless to say, I did not have any real steady teaching on the topic of CT for long.

Frankly, I really did not give much thought to these topics until I had met my wife and was ready to propose to her. Its not that I didn't care, it just didn't seem to effect me much. When I realized that I would be married soon, however, I also realized that I would, Lord willing, become a father soon. I then realized that it was important for me (us) to decide whether our children would be baptized, how we would raise them, how we would view them, etc.

I then started talking with my current chaplain/pastor/mentor (SBC), read a fair amount of popular systematic theologies and other works on baptism specifically, and considered that topic more and more. I _almost_ became a fully convinced Baptist but in reality never made up my mind.

We eventually got married and we moved to our first duty station together (I am in the Navy) and had to find a church. This was honestly a difficult time for us because we had a long distance relationship and had never been members of a church together. So we went to a few different PCA and SBC churches. One PCA pastor helpfully pointed me to a book called "Sacred Bond: Covenant Theology Explored" and was gracious enough to have us in his home to discuss the matter. He explained that the real issue was Covenant Theology and he convinced me of that truth. Eventually, however, we settled down at a SBC church plant because of the friendships we had made.

I kept reading on the topic of CT, however, and discussed the topic with various pastors and friends more and more as our daughters birth grew ever closer. I than became a convinced paedobaptist and closed on the WCF view of the covenant. This was especially hard for us because we had less than a year left in our city before we would have to move. So we had to decide whether it would be right to keep our convictions to ourselves (or else be removed from the church for not upholding the church covenant) and wait to have our daughter baptized when we move, or if we were going to change churches with such a short time left in the area.

So we ended up changing churches, and God has been faithful. Ultimately I was convicted of my position through reading how OT prophecies concerning the NC spoke of the NC. It was clear to me that there was much more continuity than my Baptist brothers would concede, especially in the case of our children's covenant standing.

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## Dachaser (Sep 16, 2017)

I think that all of our churches need to reform to some extent, and just curious, does the SBC allow for closed or open communion?


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## Deleted member 7239 (Sep 16, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> I think that all of our churches need to reform to some extent, and just curious, does the SBC allow for closed or open communion?


The SBC varies, but the one I used to go to only allowed baptized believers to partake the Lords Supper.


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## Dachaser (Sep 16, 2017)

Romans5eight said:


> The SBC varies, but the one I used to go to only allowed baptized believers to partake the Lords Supper.


I think that is the traditional Baptist position, but my church allows for one to partake of communion as long as is saved, and is not in a state of rebellion against God, in the sense of having unrepentant sinning going on at the time.


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