# Will Itunes signal the end of brick and mortar?



## RamistThomist (Jun 5, 2007)

I realize this horse is repeatedly resurrected. I am not debating the "rightness" or wrongness of either distance ed or brick and mortar. But since you are getting the same quality lectures online for free, psychologically speaking, would future students be tempted to bypass the tens of thousands of dollars where they can now get the same lectures online for free? Secondly, these types of students are theology wonks and read dozens of books.

Now, I realize they don't have a theological library and are unable to read __________ (insert some dutch guy with a difficult to pronounce last name) in the original. But still, they are getting something.

This also lets them be trained by a pastor in a pastoral setting. 

Now, I am not making a normative argument. You can see other threads for that, I guess. I am asking a psyschologically-oriented economics question that future leaders of seminaries will have to answer.


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## crhoades (Jun 5, 2007)

To also add a layer to your argument, Covenant Seminary has a ton of their material online for free, PRTS/Beeke for nominal, GPTS for nominal, WTS PA available, ITS, etc. In other words,, You can get the best of the best in audio from a distance. And one must not discount interlibrary loan. 

Oh yeah...Dooyeweerd is hard enough to read in English...why would I kill myself in Dutch?

(for those that will argue about languages...I have 8 boxes of works in Dutch for when I learn to read it. Tons of Kuyper, Bavinck, Ridderbos, etc.)


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## VictorBravo (Jun 5, 2007)

Draught Horse said:


> I realize this horse is repeatedly resurrected. I am not debating the "rightness" or wrongness of either distance ed or brick and mortar. But since you are getting the same quality lectures online for free, psychologically speaking, would future students be tempted to bypass the tens of thousands of dollars where they can now get the same lectures online for free? Secondly, these types of students are theology wonks and read dozens of books.
> 
> Now, I realize they don't have a theological library and are unable to read __________ (insert some dutch guy with a difficult to pronounce last name) in the original. But still, they are getting something.
> 
> ...



I can't answer for the seminaries, but I can still see the value of interaction. BUT, speaking as one interested in lifelong learning, these lectures are invaluable. Add to that good oversight at a local church, and I think many can be well equipped to be good and capable pastors without having to go into debt. 

I think the benefit is really bigger than replacing brick and mortar seminaries. For one thing, if they all disappeared who would pay these guys to give lectures? Really, the benefit is for people like me who don't have time for seminary, are probably never going to seminary, but want to learn as much as possible about theology in order to engage the world in our chosen profession. 

An important element missing from the free lectures is the demand to be accountable for what you have learned (as in writing papers and taking exams). But, if you have enough self-discipline to test your own learning and are willing to be challenged by good elders, these don't really matter.


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## NaphtaliPress (Jun 5, 2007)

FYI. There will be, if we can get it to the printer, an article by Dr. Pipa on "Seminary Education" in the forthcoming third issue of _The Confessional Presbyterian._ He basically argues that there is still a place for bricks and mortar seminaries.


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## crhoades (Jun 5, 2007)

victorbravo said:


> For one thing, if they all disappeared who would pay these guys to give lectures?


 
Couldn't they:
1. Sit in front of a computer and record themselves?
2. Tape themselves while teaching Sunday School?
3. Announce a group of lectures in the Presbytery and have different churches attend?
4. Reinstitute the office of Doctor in the presbytery and have TE's rotate off to spend a sabbatical researching and presenting their findings?
5. Sell lectures for $.50 a piece. A 30 hour course could be had for 15bucks. I'm all for a workman being paid a wage. If 100 people downloaded it, it would fetch the lecturer $1,500. There are no transaction fees, the more courses that was produced the more revenue would be able to come in. You could play with this model easily to find what works best.
6. etc.

Not saying that aren't strengths and weaknesses to the B&M model or the distance model. Just doing some brainstorming to answer this question. More ideas could be had.


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## jfschultz (Jun 5, 2007)

You might look at this as auditing the class for free. But to take the course for credit one will need to enroll and pay the tuition.


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## crhoades (Jun 5, 2007)

NaphtaliPress said:


> FYI. There will be, if we can get it to the printer, an article by Dr. Pipa on "Seminary Education" in the forthcoming third issue of _The Confessional Presbyterian._ He basically argues that there is still a place for bricks and mortar seminaries.


 If you can't get it to the printer, I would be happy to take a peek at it.


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## VictorBravo (Jun 5, 2007)

crhoades said:


> Couldn't they:
> 1. Sit in front of a computer and record themselves?
> 2. Tape themselves while teaching Sunday School?
> 3. Announce a group of lectures in the Presbytery and have different churches attend?
> ...



Those are all plausible. I already take some of my mandatory Continuing Legal Education credits on-line. It is just as interactive as a class, maybe even more so, because we can email questions. And the speaker does his work from his office or home.


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## matt01 (Jun 5, 2007)

Draught Horse said:


> ...But since you are getting the same quality lectures online for free, psychologically speaking, would future students be tempted to bypass the tens of thousands of dollars where they can now get the same lectures online for free?



Some will, most will continue to go the traditional route. I see image playing a large role in the decision. Studying through a mail-order program will never be seen as completely legitimate


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## Puritanhead (Jun 5, 2007)

iTunes involves computers I don't trust computers for the same reasons Dale Gribble is suspicious of them.

"You just be careful. Computers have already beaten the Communists at chess. Next thing you know, they'll be beating humans."
—Dale Gribble


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## crhoades (Jun 5, 2007)

Puritanhead said:


> iTunes involves computers I don't trust computers for the same reasons Dale Gribble is suspicious of them.
> 
> "You just be careful. Computers have already beaten the Communists at chess. Next thing you know, they'll be beating humans."
> —Dale Gribble


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## NaphtaliPress (Jun 5, 2007)

crhoades said:


> If you can't get it to the printer, I would be happy to take a peek at it.


 
CPJ 3 looks to break the 300 page barrier, if you recall CPJ 2 was a mere 256, and CPJ 1 184. And we didn't raise the price!


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## crhoades (Jun 5, 2007)

NaphtaliPress said:


> CPJ 3 looks to break the 300 page barrier, if you recall CPJ 2 was a mere 256, and CPJ 1 184. And we didn't raise the price!


I must repent and confess that I haven't ever purchased CPJ2. I need to do that sooner than later...Guess I should wait for one of your super-duper discount offers.


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## RamistThomist (Jun 5, 2007)

crhoades said:


> Couldn't they:
> 1. Sit in front of a computer and record themselves?



I had a brilliant college prof do that.


> 2. Tape themselves while teaching Sunday School?



Al Mohler does that.




> 4. Reinstitute the office of Doctor in the presbytery and have TE's rotate off to spend a sabbatical researching and presenting their findings?



JP Moreland suggested that.


> 5. Sell lectures for $.50 a piece. A 30 hour course could be had for 15bucks. I'm all for a workman being paid a wage. If 100 people downloaded it, it would fetch the lecturer $1,500. There are no transaction fees, the more courses that was produced the more revenue would be able to come in. You could play with this model easily to find what works best.



Capitalism triumphs again!

Matthew wrote:



> Some will, most will continue to go the traditional route. I see image playing a large role in the decision. Studying through a mail-order program will never be seen as completely legitimate



Depends on the church, probably. I see your point but the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ of seminary also will play a role.


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## NaphtaliPress (Jun 5, 2007)

crhoades said:


> I must repent and confess that I haven't ever purchased CPJ2. I need to do that sooner than later...Guess I should wait for one of your super-duper discount offers.


Ah so, that would be wise. One such offer will be going out soon; as soon as I can put a final period to the last straggling author, without strangling him.


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## Cheshire Cat (Jun 5, 2007)

Draught Horse said:


> But since you are getting the same quality lectures online for free, psychologically speaking, would future students be tempted to bypass the tens of thousands of dollars where they can now get the same lectures online for free?


I think it is good to note that only a small sample of courses are given online for free. This is great marketing, and at the same time, it gives quality education to laymen like myself. Now if a seminary offered all of their courses for free through the internet, it would be an entirely different story. But that simply isn't, and arguably won't be the case.


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## crhoades (Jun 5, 2007)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Ah so, that would be wise. One such offer will be going out soon; as soon as I can put a final period to the last straggling author, without strangling him.


Looking forward to it. Hey, I have to strangle people at work to get things done sometimes...the trick is to strangle them in Christian love.


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## crhoades (Jun 5, 2007)

One thing I would _love_ to see come from this is an opportunity and a push for ruling elders everywhere to take advantage of this.


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## KMK (Jun 5, 2007)

I earned a CA clear teaching credential online. It is the only way to go!!!! I am a big fan of online learning. (But then, I homeschool)


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## RamistThomist (Jun 5, 2007)

KMK said:


> I earned a CA clear teaching credential online. It is the only way to go!!!! I am a big fan of online learning. (But then, I homeschool)



I am taking apolgoetics and ethics online and it is just as rigorous and I am learning FAR MORE.


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## KMK (Jun 5, 2007)

I had a Masters level course from Cal State on Education Law which was entirely online and agree with you. It was one of the most rigorous courses in the Masters program. Nothing is worse than being a captive audience and listening to some liberal, pompous professor spout off for hours on end.


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## NaphtaliPress (Jun 5, 2007)

crhoades said:


> Looking forward to it. Hey, I have to strangle people at work to get things done sometimes...the trick is to strangle them in Christian love.


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## polemic_turtle (Jun 5, 2007)

I'm all for innovation and improvement in education. The Internet is a powerful thing, if harnessed. Bless RTS for their contributions to the online community of learners.


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## cih1355 (Jun 6, 2007)

I do not think that Itunes will replace brick and mortar. Seminary students have to take homiletics which requires them to preach in front of others. In other fields of study such as the sciences and engineering, students have to spend a considerable amount of time in a lab and not everything that is done in an on-campus lab can be duplicated at home. If a course does not require one to give speeches in front of people or go to an on-campus lab, then it would be feasible to turn that course into a distance learning course.


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## Ambrose (Jun 6, 2007)

cih1355 said:


> I do not think that Itunes will replace brick and mortar. Seminary students have to take homiletics which requires them to preach in front of others. In other fields of study such as the sciences and engineering, students have to spend a considerable amount of time in a lab and not everything that is done in an on-campus lab can be duplicated at home. If a course does not require one to give speeches in front of people or go to an on-campus lab, then it would be feasible to turn that course into a distance learning course.



But when done as distance learning, speeches and sermons could be delivered to one's own congregants, who know the learner and can hold him accountable for his daily life (unless it is a commuter church) as well as his words. Also, this would hopefully change the demographics of the seminary candidate pool, allowing more men that have actually demonstrated their qualifications by ruling their own house well to become ordained, whereas now the pool seems skewed in favor of young men who have never ruled over anything more than a dorm room, and that not very well.


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## polemic_turtle (Jun 6, 2007)

that's what I was thinking: why not actually practice edifying the people who plan to ordain you? They may be encouraged thereby or you may be made aware of a need to work on it. "Learn by doing" indeed.


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