# Counseling those who believe Christians should never be sick



## stephen2 (Dec 3, 2013)

I have people in my life who seem to have been influenced by word of faith teaching though they don't admit it themselves. Claiming the authority of Scripture they insist that Christians need not ever be sick. They would say (as AB Simpson and many others have since that) we need only have enough faith and we will be healed. They insist that God has only promised us about 70 years (which, they say, explains why everyone - including Christian's - die). 

I'm sure this is all very familiar to most of you, but I am looking for suggestions on how to counsel such people. You could certainly recommend books, but I would especially welcome Scripture references. Have any of you had success counseling those who are of this 'persuasion'? What did you find most helpful?

Thanks,

Stephen


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## JML (Dec 3, 2013)

Why is death in the world for the Christian if sickness is not? Does God just kill the Christian at around 70? Is not all death caused by a sickness of some sort?

Would this not also include sickness? This has not occurred yet.

*Revelation 21:4*


> and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.


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## JML (Dec 3, 2013)

> I would start with, "Well, that's dumb."



I obviously overthought my answer. Josh's answer is better!


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## THE W (Dec 3, 2013)

I would ask where he got that idea from scripture and go from there.


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## a mere housewife (Dec 3, 2013)

It seems unlikely that people who have latched onto such obviously delusional ideas will be convinced by mere reason. Good reasons are not why they hold to those ideas now.

But when they bring them up, you might b able to speak about how we are simply called to trust the wisdom of God in all our trials, including those relating to our health; and point them to Paul's advising Timothy to take wine for his stomach's sake, rather than suggesting that more faith could cure him?

(My grandma has had some ideas like this. I believe she has fewer of them now, but it wasn't through arguing with her. She has brought it up at times and without contradicting her directly I've simply tried to say that we trust God whether He heals us or not. She seems to have fewer of those ideas now.)


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## Jack K (Dec 3, 2013)

Although the theology behind that thinking is seriously misguided, the counsel needed goes far beyond correcting that specific belief. A person with such beliefs is likely to be feeling guilty and/or under constant pressure to please God or to conjure up purer faith lest something bad befall him as a result of his failure. He needs to learn to see God as his loving Father with whom it is safe to be a broken, struggling, sometimes weak-in-faith sinner. I suspect that is what to talk about.

Be open about your own sin and failures in faith and about the joy and security you feel with your Father, in Christ, in spite of it all. The comfort that comes from appreciating our adoption is enticing to those who don't know it and, when one is around people who have it, contagious. So rather than simply (and perhaps coldly)correcting theological error, be sure to warmly demonstrate your joy in your Father—who doesn't go around zapping his children with illness each time they fail to be as faithful as they "should" be.


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## ReformedBaptist (Dec 3, 2013)

In my experience theses people are extremely stubborn, will completely reject scripture if they don't like what it says, will twist any scripture they can get away with and will very rarely consent that you are right. How would you deal with an arminian?


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## stephen2 (Dec 3, 2013)

John and Joshua, I share your aversion for this kind of thinking. The only trouble is I'm dealing with real people who hold this teaching very dearly. Telling them its dumb isn't going to go over very well!



> I would ask where he got that idea from scripture and go from there.


 They would say that when Jesus' ministry was not attended with miracles it was attributed to the unbelief of the people. There's certainly a hermeneutic issue, here, because they also believe we should be able to do _all_ the miracles Jesus did.

Thanks Heidi for your suggestion. I've also pointed to Paul's telling Timothy that he left Trophimus at Miletus sick, but they respond by saying Trophimus was guilty of unbelief. It is hard to reason with them.

I would still recommend any other suggestions!



> Although the theology behind that thinking is seriously misguided, the counsel needed goes far beyond correcting that specific belief. A person with such beliefs is likely to be feeling guilty and/or under constant pressure to please God or to conjure up purer faith lest something bad befall him as a result of his failure. He needs to learn to see God as his loving Father with whom it is safe to be a broken, struggling, sometimes weak-in-faith sinner. I suspect that is what to talk about.


 Thanks! Very valuable point. 



> In my experience theses people are extremely stubborn, will completely reject scripture if they don't like what it says, will twist any scripture they can get away with and will very rarely consent that you are right. How would you deal with an arminian?


 True. Being a former Arminian I have found Arminians (on the whole) a lot easier to reason with, and I've seen many of them repent of their Arminianism. This is a whole different ball game.


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## a mere housewife (Dec 3, 2013)

Is it a situation where you could go through the book of Job with them? 

I think Jack is right that there can be deep insecurities behind that -- but (I'm trying to figure out the best way to say this) look at Job's friends. When the Lord comes down, he doesn't seem to interact with them on the basis of those insecurities (though they do receive mercy in a sacrifice) -- those insecurities, in their case, were not the most conscious features of belief: they were feeling pretty good about themselves, and it was Job they were condemning. The biggest issue of all was that they wanted to make sense of God's dealings, and they thought they could: they had no real idea of either their own moral or ontological inadequacy.

I hope that doesn't sound overly harsh: I certainly don't think such things about my own dear grandma. I have though, encountered the belief in that form: a simplistic over security rather than insecurity.


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## earl40 (Dec 3, 2013)

I would hold the hair out of they face when they are throwing up in the toilet when they do get sick and cry with them when a loved one dies of some horrible disease.


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## stephen2 (Dec 3, 2013)

> I was attempting (and failing) to be humorous. I do not advocate truly employing that method of "debate." I apologize for the useless and unedifying remark.


 No problem. I think I understood what you meant and I too find the whole system foolish and even oppressive. 

Some very good points again Heidi. Thanks.


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## Free Christian (Dec 3, 2013)

2 Corinthians 12 v 7. Titus 5 v 23. ?


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## Tirian (Dec 4, 2013)

James 5:13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms. 14 Is anyone among you *sick*? Let him call for the *elders* of the church, and *let them pray* over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 *And the prayer of faith will save the sick*, and the Lord will raise him up.

This passage is often thrown about negligently. Even through the mangled lens it is so often presented, what gets overlooked is that it is the faith of the elders, not the faith of the sick person that is effective here. The problem though, is as long as a piece of string.


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## THE W (Dec 4, 2013)

The word of faith people simply need to read their bible..all of it.

Those who hold to such doctrines have their hearts hardened and their consciences seared. It is our job to lead them to the truth of God's Word but ultimately it is not our job make them change their mind(you can lead a horse to water...). That is the Holy Spirit's job. Continue to Go to the Word of God, show them their error, and pray for them. 

Outside of the illumination of the Holy Spirit we can only do what our nature allows us to which is to suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness.


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## MarieP (Dec 5, 2013)

I would start by asking them why their hair dies and why they get dead skin.


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## lynnie (Dec 6, 2013)

Start by meeting them head on with what Christ truly accomplished. Did Jesus on the cross purchase our redemption? Was Satan cast out of heaven? Did Jesus bind the strong man? Did he defeat all demons? Did he win the victory over this world? By his stripes are we healed? Are we set free from sin? Did he take the curse-every single curse in the OT- upon himself? Did he defeat death? Do we already have eternal life? Are we seated in heavenly places with Him? Did he defeat our sinful fleshly nature? Was it buried with Him in baptism? 

You can do this. This is all scripture. Meet them with the totality of what Jesus did with no flinching or backing away from it. It is GLORIOUS. You can outdo the best of TBN. 

Then, you start to break it down. One by one. Does the devil still attack us? Do we still die? Do they have any flesh or sin (worry, lust, etc)? Do they ever give into the pull of the world? Are they also here on earth-at all, in any way- as well as seated in heaven? Do they still sleep? Why do they still need to sleep? Then you pull in sickness.....is there any difference with sickness and all the other victories Jesus won. Will we fight sin until we die? Will we be sinless on this earth? What is the difference between sin and sickness? 

You may get somewhere. This is the "already- not yet" theology. 

The hard core ones will not admit to having sin either ( bad confession). The really hard core ones will claim by faith that they will never die but be taken up like Enoch ( had one say that to me). With those you really need to drop the discussion, they are darkened and in another gospel where your confession saves you.

I was told I had an intellectual demon by one of them. On the other hand, I had people say this whole approach really helped them sort it out in their mind.

You also go back to I Cor 13...faith, hope, love, the greatest is love. Is God's greatest goal their faith or their love? (not that it is real faith, but try and get them thinking about the goal). If a person has lack of faith and therefor is sick, but grows in love and tenderness, is that a good thing? 

I know quite a lot of them who sooner or later fell and broke a major bone, had a kid die, got an abcessed tooth, etc. Life has a way of humbling us.


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