# Origin of Sin



## TheocraticMonarchist (Sep 21, 2009)

"Where did sin come from?"

This is a discussion question for a Bible study I will be attending tonight. I've never really given it much thought. Where did sin come from? Ultimately sin and rebellion could not exist apart from the will of our sovereign God. Did he invent the concept of sin and rebellion and will it for the reprobate? Where did sin originate?


Thanks,


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## Joseph Scibbe (Sep 21, 2009)

God never causes us to sin. The idea of Gods soverignty can not disclude our responsiblity. Otherwise He would be unjust for punishing us for something He caused us to do.


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## ewenlin (Sep 21, 2009)

TheocraticMonarchist said:


> "Where did sin come from?"
> 
> This is a discussion question for a Bible study I will be attending tonight. I've never really given it much thought. Where did sin come from? Ultimately sin and rebellion could not exist apart from the will of our sovereign God. Did he invent the concept of sin and rebellion and will it for the reprobate? Where did sin originate?
> 
> Thanks,



Westminster Larger Catechism. Q21,
Q. 21. Did man continue in that estate wherein God at first created him?
A. Our first parents being left to the freedom of their own will, through the temptation of Satan, transgressed the commandment of God in eating the forbidden fruit; and thereby fell from the estate of innocency wherein they were created. 

Gen. 3:6-8, 13
Eccl. 7:29
2 Cor. 11:3
Rom. 5:12
1 Tim. 2:14

From Johannes G. Vos commentary on the larger catechism,

*Why was it possible for Adam and Eve to sin against God?* 
God left them to the freedom of their own will, instead of using his almighty power to prevent them from sinning. Since God is almighty, it would certainly have been possible for him to prevent the human race from falling into sin. But God in his wisdom did not choose to prevent the fall. Since God held back his almighty power and left Adam and Eve to their own free will, it was possible for them to choose to commit sin.

*What great mystery is involved in the Bible account of the fall?*
The problem of the origin of evil in the human race. Since Adam and Eve were created in a state of knowledge, righteousness, and holiness, there was no evil in their nature to which temptation could appeal. Since they were created in righteousness, evil had to enter their lives from an outside source. But how could temptation to commit sin make a real appeal to a sinless being? What motive could have more influence in a sinless person than the motive to obey God?

*What should be our attitude toward this mystery?*
We should accept what the Bible teaches about it in simple faith, and recognize that the psychological problem of the origin of evil in the human race is an insoluble mystery. The information which the Bible provides may be summarized as follows: 

a. Our first parents were sinless as they came from the hand of God. 
b. Sin entered the human race from an outside source, namely, from the temptation of Satan.
c. Satan tempted Eve through appealing to desires which are not sinful in themselves, but morally indifferent (Gen. 3:6), but which it is sinful to gratify by disobedience to a direct command o God.
d. The temptation came to Adam not directly from Satan, but through Eve, who had already sinned.
e. Although the psychological problem is insoluble, there is not the slightest doubt as to the fact that mankind, although created holy, was tempted by Satan and thereupon fell into an estate of sin.

Johannes G. Vos. The Westminster Larger Catechism: A Commentary, edited by G. I. Wiliamson. Phillipsburg, New Jersey: P&R Publishing, 2002.


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## TheocraticMonarchist (Sep 21, 2009)

Can sin exist apart from the will of God? God obviously built angels and men with the ability to sin. Doesn't this mean that God had to think up the concept of sin before he created?


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## rbcbob (Sep 21, 2009)

Satan.

Ezekiel 28:15 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you. 

But then you will ask .....


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## TheocraticMonarchist (Sep 21, 2009)

Joshua said:


> _Nothing_ exists apart from the will of God. God didn't get surprised by the entrance of sin into the world. He decreed from eternity that it would come to pass. And yet, despite this, He's not guilty of sin.



So sin/the concept of obedience and disobedience originated from the mind of God. I guess the answer would be that the ability to sin comes from God.


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## Michael Doyle (Sep 21, 2009)

Sin is not something to be owned or possessed. It is not a tangible substance and in light of that, it merely presents itself as the absence of godliness and finds its origin in Adams desire to be as God through the temptation in the garden.



> Everything originates from God. The problem is trying to liken God as being anything like us. There is a great distinction between Creator and creature. Since sin is any transgression or lack of conformity to God's Law, then that means He was the one Who created the standard. I think it's important, when considering things like God's attributes, and things like His decrees, etc. that we heed to advice of the Framers when they wrote:
> Quote:
> The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.
> WCF III.VIII


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## ewenlin (Sep 21, 2009)

Joshua said:


> Everything originates from God. The problem is trying to liken God as being _anything_ like us. There is a great distinction between Creator and creature. Since sin is any transgression or lack of conformity to God's Law, then that means He was the one Who created the standard. I think it's important, when considering things like God's attributes, and things like His decrees, etc. that we heed to advice of the Framers when they wrote:
> 
> 
> > The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God *revealed in His Word*, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.
> ...



Are you saying our attending the will of God should be limited to that which is clearly revealed in His Word and not try to harmonize "apparent contradictions" for God's plan and purposes cannot be explained or discovered by men Rom. 11:33?


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## Herald (Sep 21, 2009)

Joshua said:


> _Nothing_ exists apart from the will of God. God didn't get surprised by the entrance of sin into the world. He decreed from eternity that it would come to pass. And yet, despite this, He's not guilty of sin.



And it's not a paradox as much as we are not able to understand it perfectly.


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## Peairtach (Sep 21, 2009)

If Adam and Eve were made in such a way that they could not sin, could their love for God have been tested as to its reality?

One aspect of sin is that it is a withdrawl of love for God, but if we can't withdraw our love, do we truly love at at all?

Would they have been inferior creatures if they couldn't sin? Would they be made in God's Image?

Without sin, many wonderful things, particularly the display of God's glory in Christ and His Cross could not have happened.


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## Peairtach (Sep 21, 2009)

Prufrock said:


> Richard, will we have real love after the resurrection, when we are perfected and glorified?



Yes. But we loved Christ, being energised by the Holy Spirit - albeit after he chose us by grace.

Now - if we are truly saved - we are in a better position than Adam and Eve, because it is impossible to fall from grace. The mutual love between us and God is established forever and ever.


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## carlgobelman (Sep 21, 2009)

TheocraticMonarchist said:


> Joshua said:
> 
> 
> > _Nothing_ exists apart from the will of God. God didn't get surprised by the entrance of sin into the world. He decreed from eternity that it would come to pass. And yet, despite this, He's not guilty of sin.
> ...



Another way to consider it is to consider the will in relation to our desires. As I understand it, prior to the fall our desires were neutral in that we could freely choose to obey God or freely choose to disobey God. After the fall, our desires were corrupted to the point where we could only freely choose to disobey God. After redemption, our desires are renewed and we only desire to obey God, but our flesh gets in the way and we live in Romans 7 for the rest of our lives. After glorification, our bodies are renewed and the hindrances we had to obeying God are removed and we are free to obey God.

In short...


1. Pre-fall: Desires neutral
2. Post-fall: Desires corrupted and we suppress the truth
3. Redeemed: Desires are renewed, but hindered by the flesh
4. Glorified: Body is renewed and hindrances removed


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## ewenlin (Sep 21, 2009)

Christopher Love offered the best succinct answer to the question of "Why did God ordain sin?"

His answer was that God ordained sin so that we would know Him in the fullness of His attributes. If God had never ordained sin we would only have known Him as a 
Creator, but because of sin we can know Him as a Redeemer.

Found in the preface of _A Spectacle Unto God: The Life and Death of Christopher Love_ by Don Kistler


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## OPC'n (Sep 21, 2009)

We don't know how sin came into the world we can only speculate. We do know that God allowed it. Here is my : God created all things innocent and righteous but not perfect as He is perfect only perfect in that all things were completed but not perfect in that morally Adam and Eve could have stayed off any temptation as Christ being perfect did. Therefore, Adam and Eve lacking God's attribute of perfection to resist temptation gave in to the temptation and sinned. Of course, we would have to go back further bc sin was around before Adam and Eve......Satan was the first to sin. The same thing could be said of him. It is possible that his temptation was in seeing what he didn't have and bc he wasn't perfect began desiring to have that which was not his own.....my


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## rbcbob (Sep 21, 2009)

OPC'n said:


> We don't know how sin came into the world we can only speculate. We do know that God allowed it. Here is my : God created all things innocent and righteous but not perfect as He is perfect only perfect in that all things were completed but not perfect in that morally Adam and Eve could have stayed off any temptation as Christ being perfect did. Therefore, Adam and Eve lacking God's attribute of perfection to resist temptation gave in to the temptation and sinned. Of course, we would have to go back further bc sin was around before Adam and Eve......Satan was the first to sin. The same thing could be said of him. It is possible that his temptation was in seeing what he didn't have and bc he wasn't perfect began desiring to have that which was not his own.....my




The first sin in the created order was that of Satan. I would argue that his sin was inevitable because he was *not elect* and therefore not kept (preserved) by the power of God.

1 Timothy 5:21 I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the *elect angels* that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality.

Luke 10:18 And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Jude 1:6 And the angels *who did not keep their proper domain*, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;


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## OPC'n (Sep 21, 2009)

rbcbob said:


> OPC'n said:
> 
> 
> > We don't know how sin came into the world we can only speculate. We do know that God allowed it. Here is my : God created all things innocent and righteous but not perfect as He is perfect only perfect in that all things were completed but not perfect in that morally Adam and Eve could have stayed off any temptation as Christ being perfect did. Therefore, Adam and Eve lacking God's attribute of perfection to resist temptation gave in to the temptation and sinned. Of course, we would have to go back further bc sin was around before Adam and Eve......Satan was the first to sin. The same thing could be said of him. It is possible that his temptation was in seeing what he didn't have and bc he wasn't perfect began desiring to have that which was not his own.....my
> ...



Yeah, I did say that Satan was the first to sin when I said, "Satan was the first to sin" and the OP wasn't on who was of the elect. It asked about the origin of sin. Just bc God didn't elect Satan to be a holy angel doesn't mean God made Satan with sin so I don't know how bringing up election = OP.


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## rbcbob (Sep 21, 2009)

OPC'n said:


> Yeah, I did say that Satan was the first to sin when I said, "Satan was the first to sin" and the OP wasn't on who was of the elect. It asked about the origin of sin. Just bc God didn't elect Satan to be a holy angel doesn't mean God made Satan with sin so I don't know how bringing up election = OP.




The OP raised the question of the origin of sin. I believe that I addressed that.


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## Calvin'scuz (Sep 22, 2009)

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) reads, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Other versions (NIV; NAS) use the word "disaster" or "calamity" in place of "evil," so many claim that the KJV translation is poor. While "evil" may not be the preferred translation of "Ra" throughout the OT (more often translated as "disaster," and "calamity"), "Ra" is translated in over 50 OT passages as "wickedness." 
So, what is it? Does God create disasters and calamity, but never evil or wickedness? It's not a far stretch at all to equate the word "wickedness" with "sin."


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## Solus Christus (Sep 22, 2009)

Calvin'scuz said:


> Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) reads, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Other versions (NIV; NAS) use the word "disaster" or "calamity" in place of "evil," so many claim that the KJV translation is poor. While "evil" may not be the preferred translation of "Ra" throughout the OT (more often translated as "disaster," and "calamity"), "Ra" is translated in over 50 OT passages as "wickedness."
> So, what is it? Does God create disasters and calamity, but never evil or wickedness? It's not a far stretch at all to equate the word "wickedness" with "sin."



Still you need to be careful since it seems you're implying that in effect God "creates wickedness or sin". And while it may be true "Ra" is translated in over 50 OT passages as wickedness Calvin makes a good distinction on his commentary of Isaiah 45:7



> Fanatics torture this word evil, as if God were the author of evil, that is, of sin; but it is very obvious how ridiculously they abuse this passage of the Prophet. This is sufficiently explained by the contrast, the parts of which must agree with each other; for he contrasts “peace” with “evil,” that is, with afflictions, wars, and other adverse occurrences. If he contrasted “righteousness” with “evil,” there would be some plausibility in their reasonings, but this is a manifest contrast of things that are opposite to each other.


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## Confessor (Sep 22, 2009)

Since God is not obliged to uphold the goodness of men's moral characters, He may let them "drop" as He pleases and leave them to a state in which they guide themselves unto ruin. I would say this is what occurred with Adam. God did create the privation in Adam (by withholding grace from him), but in doing so He cannot be declared the author of sin.


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## Jake Terpstra (Sep 22, 2009)

Dr Calvin Troup illustrated to me a definition of sin that seems to clarify the issue. 
Sin does not exist in the sense that it is not part of the created order. God created all things. Everything God created was good/very good. God did not create sin. Therefore sin is No-Thing. By this definition, the "existence" of sin is inspired simply by the absence of God's gracious hand.


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## rbcbob (Sep 23, 2009)

Jake Terpstra said:


> Dr Calvin Troup illustrated to me a definition of sin that seems to clarify the issue.
> Sin does not exist in the sense that it is not part of the created order. God created all things. Everything God created was good/very good. God did not create sin. Therefore sin is No-Thing. By this definition, the "existence" of sin is inspired simply by the absence of God's gracious hand.



Sin is a positive thing; a thought, word, or deed committed against the will of God.

Judges 6:29 So they said to one another, "Who has done this thing?" And when they had inquired and asked, they said, "*Gideon the son of Joash has done this thing."*


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## Confessor (Sep 23, 2009)

Well, the fact that sin is not nothing (not a no-thing) does not imply that it cannot be a _privation_, in case anyone might think that that follows.


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## rbcbob (Sep 23, 2009)

Prufrock said:


> Bob, there is a difference between _sin_ and _a sin_, or between _evil_ and _an evil_. One is a privation; the other a contrary.



I agree. See my post #20.


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## rbcbob (Sep 23, 2009)

Prufrock said:


> I'm sorry, Bob, I must be too dense: I'm not sure how that relates to our posts #27 and 29.




The first sin in the created order was that of Satan. I would argue that his sin was inevitable because he was not elect and therefore not kept (preserved) by the power of God.

1 Timothy 5:21 I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the *elect angels* that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality.

Luke 10:18 And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;

I.	In space and time *sin* (evil) was non-existent until Satan fell.
II.	When Satan fell, by committing a *sin* (transgression) then (and continuing through this age) *sin* (evil) has existed.
III.	It is due only to the *eternal* decree of God that Satan did not fall sooner than he did which involves the Sovereign Grace and Providential Preservation of God *in space and in time*
IV.	*Sin* (evil) cannot ever have occurred unless and until God withdrew His hand from upholding i.e. preserving angels and men from committing *sins*. That is, as Edwards argues in Freedom of the Will, God need only step back and leave His creature to self, and sin will ensue. Otherwise we must posit that the creature, wholly apart from the Creator, could maintain their holiness. Are not even the elect angels dependent upon the Almighty for their continuance in their first estate?


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