# Sacred oaks, charms, witch doctors, and showdowns



## Pergamum (Dec 7, 2007)

If you ministered in a very animistic environment how would you minister to people with sacred oaks, charms, fetishes, and witch doctors?

Some in the past cut down sacred oaks and challenged "local dieties" in a showdown fashion. Some have welcomed being cursed to show the futility of such curses. Fetish and charm burning is also big. 

(a side note: I know some who have mailed these charms home as keepsakes and others who burned them all and claimed that they were evil, even when removed from their context....what do you think? Can there be any power in the thing itself? )

Others do not aggressively attack the local beliefs but just live among the people and let the people themselves slowly begin to ask about the differences between their faith and the Christian faith. These avoid showdowns in the name of not putting one's self in danger.

I have been put under a curse once in the past and responded by laughing at the person and saying that nothing from their spirits could hurt me. I did not have time to think of another response and punching the person out seemed a bit inapropriate. What is the appropriate response if cursed?

Others I know have responded by holding a special time of prayer and fasting.


Do we acknowledge these "local powers", ridicule them, attack them, let them be and not stir them up? 

What is our approach to be when confronting blatant animism and even ritualized "black magic" and local shamanistic practices?


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## BobVigneault (Dec 7, 2007)

Demons use the fear of an individual to manipulate that individual. The object holds no power in and of itself, it is a prop. It is assigned value or significance by the misinformed and superstitious. If you have Christ's Spirit and you acknowledge the sovereignty of God over all things then you have nothing to fear from curses, charms, amulets, pictures, invocations. 

1 John 4:13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. 19 We love because he first loved us.

The love is of course his sovereign and electing love of the Father, through the Son, by the administration of the Spirit. Nothing can separate us from this love for it's not based in anything outside of God. 

Demons have the power to deceive and from a basis of deception they can raise all kinds of havoc. But if the truth of God's sovereignty is firmly established in the believer than the demon has no 'foot hold' to stand in. 

Fear God more than anything else and you will fear nothing.

I pray for you regularly dear one.


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## BJClark (Dec 7, 2007)

Pergamum;

I'm not sure how to approach it, but the first thing that came to mind when reading this was when Elijah challenged the believers in other gods against our God. 


Let me see if I can word this so that it makes sense...

Christ tells us if we have faith the size of a mustard seed we can move mountains...our faith being what binds us to knowing God's power through the Holy Spirit...and with them it is their 'faith' in these objects that binds them in the same way to their god...so it would be a matter of chipping away at their underlying 'faith' in the object showing them the object has no power...


We must also remember: we don't wrestle against the people..because it's a spiritual battle, 

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]. 

So how do we battle? we look to Eph 6:13-20 and it tells us..

Picture them as if they are caught up in a huge vine wrapped around a tree, trapped and struggling and you and yours have the only swords that are sharp enough to cut away the vines. Chopping them away from their arms and legs, would be useless because the vine is growing, and as soon as you chop one section off it grows back just as fast..so you need to cut it from the root with the word of God..using the shield of faith to block the firery darts of the poison from the vines..

Picture putting on your battle armour and how it can be used against these things..your sheild of faith, as others are doing when they show the futility of the curses..the sword of the spirit chopping away at the roots as you speak boldly the things of God..


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## turmeric (Dec 7, 2007)

Bawb, I hate to do this but I must respectfully disagree with one point you made - based on experience which I know isn't the final word, but I can't pretend it didn't happen. Once when I was with a group of Christian young people, I encountered a charmed object. I recognized it because I had been involved with that sort of thing before becoming a Christian.

I couldn't figure out why these kids were suddenly becoming Roman Catholic despite coming from evangelical churches. This night, one of the prime Catholic apologists handed out rosaries from Medjegorje(sic) because she was leaving. When she handed me one, I noticed immediately that it was "charged" as occultists say sometimes, as if someone had attempted to put "psychic energy" into it. I never expected to encounter that at a Christian youth group. I immediately prayed for God to remove the "charge" and then asked Him to remove it from all of them. I realized then what had been behind the invincible Roman Catholic juggernaut taking over the group.

I found out later that God, for His own good reasons, had left the "charge" on at least one of the rosaries - when I told a friend who had been there about it, she said she'd been having nightmares since bringing it into her house. I convinced her to throw it out. We had a good talk about images of Christ, prayers to saints, and we touched on the passage in the Book of Samuel where Saul consults a medium. So it all worked out. Sorry about the digression!


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## Pergamum (Dec 8, 2007)

Meg: So you would say that spirits can inhabit inanimate obejcts? 

If so, how about places too? 

And if places, should we claim places in the name of Christ or "pray them out" before inhabiting them.


If spiritual power can inhabit inanimate objects, what about food? Like food offered to idols. And would this be okay then to eat, if we are actually imbibing bad spiritual power.


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## Puritan Sailor (Dec 8, 2007)

Pergamum said:


> Meg: So you would say that spirits can inhabit inanimate obejcts?
> 
> If so, how about places too?
> 
> ...



If I could plug in a comment; it's not that the object is "charged" but that the demon has chosen to accompany it, knowing that the recipient of the object will be open for deception. These demons are intelligent and experienced at this art of bondage. And it wouldn't surprised me if other Christians who had experienced it before would be able to identify the presence of the enemy.


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## turmeric (Dec 8, 2007)

Thanks, I've always hoped someone could explain it to me. I know it was providentially allowed by God for my growth and possibly another's.


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## BobVigneault (Dec 8, 2007)

Thank you for sharing that experience Meg. Someday soon I want to start collecting these experiences and stack them up against the scriptures and come up with some form of play book based on these experiences with a reformed response. 

I agree fully with what Patrick said, the 'charm' is a prop, the spirit power, energy, tinglings is supplied by the demon. Demons are not capable of manipulating possibility but they can manipulate probabilities. Their 'miracles' are pretty limited but given the right 'set up' and expectations they can be quite dramatic and even frightening. Demons are not stupid but they sure know that we are.


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## Eoghan (Dec 24, 2007)

I would instinctively side with the argument that any charms/occult artefacts are of themselves nothing. I say that perhaps more as a scientist than a christian. As a Christian however, I am put in mind of the New Testament use of "charged" items. Yes it sounds unlikely, about as unlikely as Jesus' advice to the Apostles to sell their cloaks and purchase swords for themselves (Luke 22:36, just in case you dismiss me too quickly).

"God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that even, handkerchiefs and aprons that touched him were taken to cure the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them" Acts 19

In fairness this was recorded about Paul rather than by him. I can't help feel that his own record would have included more by way of explanation. However what we have must be enough in the providence of God. 

Looking more closely we can see that the items used were used in Paul's absence to cure and exorcise. There was no direct physical contact required. However Paul is acknowledged as the source (after God) of the healing. This testifies to his authority as an Apostle. So it might reasonably be assumed that there was a "verbal" account of the origin of the items as being Paul. This would be required if the purpose of the miracles was to authenticate the Apostle.

Another relevant passage is found in 1 Corinthians 8 – the meat sacrificed to idols. This is more definite teaching on items with an occult link. Paul is quite clear that the meat is itself part of God’s creation and can be received with thanksgiving. As far as Paul is concerned there is no continuing link with the occult (apparently the meat was sold on the open market once dedicated/sacrificed?) and this despite the fact that it is consumed and enters the body. That is good enough for me.

As regards believers the Bible teaches that Satan is behind temptations and “fiery darts”. The fiery darts are probably persecution. Temptations are self explanatory. 

God acted to prevent Balaam cursing God’s people. Proverbs 26:2 also says no undeserved curse will alight. Job teaches us Satan has power, at God’s discretion, and limitation. 

A good book is Powers of Evil by Sydney H. T. Page. Remember however for every look at Satan take ten (or some multiple) at Christ!


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