# Knox Seminary Fiasco continues



## NaphtaliPress

While it was looking like everyone was going to patch things up in a commendable way, sadly, the Knox Seminary Fiasco continues. I'm speechless. The word shameful comes to mind though.

Stuff That Matters - Faith & Politics: Resigned Knox Board Told Don’t Bother


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## NaphtaliPress

I should have added that Reformed Musings blogs goes over what is contrary to the PCA Book of Church order regarding aspects of this.
A Sad Session Overreach « Reformed Musings


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## Semper Fidelis

{shakes head in disbelief}


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## Blueridge Believer

What exactly was this man teaching that upset them so?


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## Pergamum

What's happening...in a nutshell?


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## NaphtaliPress

The majority of the Knox board members, suspended or fired a professor for what they thought was an extreme view of typology; I don't know if that was the only reason, and this may be an over simplification. The session reversed that decision, and six board members resigned, including R. C. Sproul Sr. Eventually the Stated Clerk ruled that the Book of Church order governed the matter and that the session didn't have the right to overturn the decision (again, this is over simplifying; read the links). The session invited the board members who resigned to unresign, without any stipulations or qualifications. Two weeks later, evidently because the board members who did not resign were suspicions of the motives of the returning members, required a letter to be signed stating the returned members repented and other binding stipulations. Whatever one may think of the issue at root of the suspension/firing; this is just shameful to ask them to come back without stipulations and then, oops, when they took the offer, decide to impose conditions. Again, this is condensed and you should read the two links for the full story and the first link for the documentation from each side.


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## turmeric

I see that one of the requirements was to recant their charge that this fellow's teaching was unconfessional. That's asking too much, in my opinion.


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## greenbaggins

Another important issue in the charge against Gage (and I am making NO judgment on whether the charge was accurate or not: I'm still undecided as to which side is correct. Men I deeply respect are on both sides) was whether or not he taught something equivalent to the fourfold interpretation of the Medieval period, which would be contrary to WCF 1.9.


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## sastark

Ok, I agree that it is wrong to allow the board members back, only to add further stipulations afterwards and I would also like to state that church politics are always shameful and this incident reeks of church politics.

Having said that, I'm curious: Was Knox Seminary originally set up as a "ministry" (for lack of a better word) of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church? Was the Session of CRPC accurate in saying that the Board of Knox Seminary is a Standing Commission of CRPC? If so, how could the stated clerk of the PCA offer an assessment in favor of the board of Knox Seminary? It seems to me that this is a local church issue.

Another question I would want answered before making up my mind on this topic is: Who has the right to discipline professors at KTS? Does that responsibility fall to the board of directors or does the Session of CRPC alone have that authority?

Also, I would encourage everyone to withhold judgment until we hear both sides of the issue.


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## non dignus

If the resignations were not accepted, then they never officially left the board. They are still on the board.


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## DMcFadden

As a Californian, I have NO clue as to the corporate culture of Coral Ridge or Knox. However, my guess is that whenever a larger-than-life leader of the stature of Kennedy disappears from the scene, you should expect some pretty significant missteps by people trying to adjust to the political environment absent the founder. Look at any large church of whatever polity deal with the death or retirement of a founder or long-term pastor. These kinds of foolish actions are sadly all too common. I pray that they don't do anything to besmirch the reputation of a fine school or some very good people. Sheesh!


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## fredtgreco

sastark said:


> Ok, I agree that it is wrong to allow the board members back, only to add further stipulations afterwards and I would also like to state that church politics are always shameful and this incident reeks of church politics.
> 
> Having said that, I'm curious: Was Knox Seminary originally set up as a "ministry" (for lack of a better word) of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church? Was the Session of CRPC accurate in saying that the Board of Knox Seminary is a Standing Commission of CRPC? If so, how could the stated clerk of the PCA offer an assessment in favor of the board of Knox Seminary? It seems to me that this is a local church issue.
> 
> Another question I would want answered before making up my mind on this topic is: Who has the right to discipline professors at KTS? Does that responsibility fall to the board of directors or does the Session of CRPC alone have that authority?
> 
> Also, I would encourage everyone to withhold judgment until we hear both sides of the issue.



The board cannot be a commission (standing or otherwise) of the Session. In order to be on a commission (except as an invited ex officio guest, like the preacher at an ordination), you must be a member of the court. In order to be a member of the Session of CRPC, a man must have been a member of CRPC and have been elected an elder from that congregation. It is manifestly not the case with the Teaching Elders (who are members of their respective Presbyteries), and don't think it is the case with the non-TEs either. Furthermore, as Dr. Taylor states, the Session has no authority over Dr. Gage (himself a member of a Presbytery) either to condemn or exonerate. All of this is standard polity - and does not touch on the substantive issue of Dr. Gage's teaching.


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## NaphtaliPress

How could anyone claim this when a woman was on the board of directors?


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## fredtgreco

NaphtaliPress said:


> How could anyone claim this when a woman was on the board of directors?



I have no idea, Chris.


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## JasonG.

*Women on Seminary Board of Directors?*

Q: Why is/was there a female on the board of directors at Knox?

A: *Accreditation*. The Association of Theological Schools (ATS), the accrediting authority/body for many seminaries and theological schools, to include Knox, mandates the following in its *Standards, paragraph 8.3.1.3*:

_“Members of the governing board shall possess the qualifications appropriate to the task they will undertake. In accordance with the school’s purpose and constituencies, the governing board’s membership should reflect diversity of race, ethnicity, and gender.”_

You can refer to the actual ATS Standards via this link:
Standards


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## JasonG.

Essentially, the ATS mandates that the governing board of a theological school must reflect the diversity of the student body. Knox has both male and female and numerous ethnicities comprising the student body. Therefore, the board of Knox must reflect this reality.


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## JonathanHunt

joshua said:


> Can someone write a brief pargraph of all this in terms where someone who is still a novice to Presbyterian polity can understand it? Who did what and what was wrong and...?



Why worry about it, Josh? Really, this whole matter should be kept within PCA circles. I don't see that it is my business to know about it or make judgements. I am sure that within the PCA the mechanisms exist to sort this matter out properly.


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## Peter

JonathanHunt said:


> joshua said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can someone write a brief pargraph of all this in terms where someone who is still a novice to Presbyterian polity can understand it? Who did what and what was wrong and...?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why worry about it, Josh? Really, this whole matter should be kept within PCA circles. I don't see that it is my business to know about it or make judgements. I am sure that within the PCA the mechanisms exist to sort this matter out properly.
Click to expand...


 I wonder if I'm committing the lust of the eyes in even caring. The desire I have to hear scandals in the church is probably a vain curiosity. Some knowledge may be useful for prayer but how much do I need to know?


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## NaphtaliPress

These cautions are certainly generally appropriate; however, let's do Josh the favor of letting him judge his own conscience in asking for a summary of what exactly has transpired.


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## NaphtaliPress

A significant recension at Reformedmusings is posted.
An Error and Repentence « Reformed Musings


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## turmeric

NaphtaliPress said:


> A significant recension at Reformedmusings is posted.
> An Error and Repentence « Reformed Musings



Now THAT is an excellent example of repentance - if we get nothing else out of all this.

Jonathan, et al:

I really think when there are people out there blogging about R.C.Sproul and Rick Phillips and Coral Ridge - it's going to raise questions. I think Josh and the others just want whatever facts are out there. There don't appear to be too many facts actually. Poor R.C. Sproul - I wish he could have a peaceful old age, but it doesn't seem meant to be.


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## Bandguy

NaphtaliPress said:


> The majority of the Knox board members, suspended or fired a professor for what they thought was an extreme view of typology; I don't know if that was the only reason, and this may be an over simplification.



It also might have had something to do with this:



> While there were other objections to Dr. Gage’s style of teaching such as the *description of spiritual regeneration as the “spiritual rape” of an individual*, and other ill advised comments, the primary reason for the certain Members resignation was Dr. Gage’s hermeneutical interpretation as being counter confessional.



How disgusting to make such a statement. That sounds like something one would hear from the Caners or some Arminian prof. Isn't this a reformed institution?


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## weinhold

Bandguy said:


> While there were other objections to Dr. Gage’s style of teaching such as the *description of spiritual regeneration as the “spiritual rape” of an individual*, and other ill advised comments, the primary reason for the certain Members resignation was Dr. Gage’s hermeneutical interpretation as being counter confessional.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How disgusting to make such a statement. That sounds like something one would hear from the Caners or some Arminian prof. Isn't this a reformed institution?
Click to expand...


I think John Donne said it best:


> Batter my heart, three person'd God; for, you
> As yet but knocke, breathe, shine, and seeke to mend;
> That I may rise, and stand, o'erthrow mee,'and bend
> Your force, to breake, blowe, burn and make me new.
> I, like an usurpt towne, to'another due,
> Labour to'admit you, but Oh, to no end,
> Reason your viceroy in mee, mee should defend,
> But is captiv'd, and proves weake or untrue.
> Yet dearely'I love you,'and would be loved faine,
> But am betroth'd unto your enemie:
> Divorce mee,'untie, or breake that knot againe;
> Take mee to you, imprison mee, for I
> Except you'enthrall mee, never shall be free,
> *Nor ever chast, except you ravish mee.*


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## DMcFadden

Joshua,

I just Googled "Knox Seminary" AND Gage AND controversy and came up with plenty of sites to fill in the details. I am NOT a presbyterian so my grasp of the polity is a bit fuzzy. As I understand the issues . . .

* A former student filed a complaint against Dr. Gage for some of his ill-chosen framings and particularly for his anti-rationalistic emphasis upon reading the Bible in a more "typological" manner (i.e., implying that meaning was multiple, not singular).
* Someone(s) in the faculty investigated and turned the matter over to the board.
* The board found him outside the confessional boundaries of the WCF; suspended him WITH pay until the end of the semester; and encouraged him to reconsider his positions so as to bring them into compliance with the confessional standards.
* Since the prof was also on the pastoral staff of the church AND since Knox was established as a ministry of the church, the session investigated the matter and overturned the board. They ordered the immediate reinstatment of the prof.
* Having already written a letter imploring the church to respect the judgment of the board, Dr. R.C. Sproul (and five other board members) resigned their positions on the board.
* An offer was made to reinstate the board members, they all accepted.
* After they accepted the offer, they were informed that in order to return to the board, they would need to agree to some conditions. These included admitting that they were wrong and promising not to take action against the prof in the future.
* Those who love the staff pastor/seminary prof have gone out of their way to blame R.C. Sproul in most uncharitable ways, seeing the matter as one of a rush to judgment and a failure of due process; those who side with the board see this as the beginning of the end for the school. They argue that the board was merely attempting to maintain theological purity with integrity.

I agree with Turmeric. Poor R.C.! He has had a powerful impact upon my life and ministry. After a lifetime of faithful service, he certainly does not deserve this kind of trouble. Frankly, it is difficult to believe that this would have gone down this way if Dr. Kennedy were still alive.


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## JonathanHunt

joshua said:


> Jonathan, it appears nobody's gonna break it down for me anyway, so no worries!



Hey, I wasn't getting at you, I said I didn't think it was MY business especially. It certainly interests me, but I wonder, as Peter said, if that interest is wrong. I think you have a breakdown now anyways!


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## Civbert

DMcFadden said:


> ...
> * Those who love the staff pastor/seminary prof have gone out of their way to blame R.C. Sproul in most uncharitable ways, seeing the matter as one of a rush to judgment and a failure of due process; those who side with the board see this as the beginning of the end for the school. They argue that the board was merely attempting to maintain theological purity with integrity.



It seems to me the CRPC Session rushed to judgment. It seemed that the idea of the Board was that the Board would suspend Gage, then the Session was also expected to suspend Gage (on the advice of the Board) from preaching/teaching at CRPC pending an investigation and hearing by the _Presbytery!_ 

Had the CRPC Session not rushed to intervene, and had they followed the Board's suggestions, then the next step would have been and investigation and hearing by the Presbytery. 

At that point, the Presbytery could rightly rule if Gage was within the bounds of orthodoxy. And if they ruled in Gage's favor, _then_ Board could reconsider their actions. 

But that didn't happen and it's a mess. I hope they can straighten out the procedural issues first, so they can then properly consider the more important issues of Gage's orthodoxy at the Presbytery level.


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## turmeric

Wonder if this'll make the GA dockett this summer. Anyway, I should pray about it and talk less.


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## Stephen

This accusation that Warren Gage regards redemption as a form of divine rape is unfounded. Brothers, we must be careful in accussing a man of saying something that he may not have said. This was a quote taken out of context in a class lecture. The Scriptures remind us that we should not bear false witness against our neighbor. This was something that was found on the internet and perhaps taken out of context by those who thought it was their "calling" to let everyone know the juicy gosip of Knox Seminary. Warren Gage was accused of teaching a typology that some think is beyond the WCOF. There are several issues at stake in this matter and too many are confusing the issues.


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## Stephen

John Doane in his Holy Sonnet XIV refers to being ravished by God. Perhaps this was the context of the discussion in which this accusation against Gage was raised. Remember that we are outsiders and there is always more behind an issue then what appears on the surface.


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## C. Matthew McMahon

DMcFadden said:


> As a Californian, I have NO clue as to the corporate culture of Coral Ridge or Knox. However, my guess is that whenever a larger-than-life leader of the stature of Kennedy disappears from the scene, you should expect some pretty significant missteps by people trying to adjust to the political environment absent the founder. Look at any large church of whatever polity deal with the death or retirement of a founder or long-term pastor. These kinds of foolish actions are sadly all too common. I pray that they don't do anything to besmirch the reputation of a fine school or some very good people. Sheesh!


 
This is EXACTLY what is going on, and its EXTREMELY disturbing to see men who were once respected, fall into some shady moves.

If Dr. Kennedy was still alive....

When the cat is away the mice play.

*Exodus 32:17-18 *17 And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said to Moses, "_There is _a noise of war in the camp." 18 But he said: "_It is _not the noise of the shout of victory, Nor the noise of the cry of defeat, *But the sound of singing I hear."* 

I know when you hear "exactly" that I might be oversimplifying it. I am. There are quite a few other things that would make you shake your head that are actually happening in the school and in the church as a result of Kennedy's death. People jockying for control, etc.


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## Stephen

Brother, McMahon I think you hit the nail on the head. The entire situation at Knox & Coral Ridge is quite disturbing. I personally know that Dr. Kennedy would have handled things differently. Does it not seem odd that only a few days after the beloved pastor is buried that Dr. Gage is put on suspension by the board?


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## NaphtaliPress

The ex, not ex, then ex again board members are not returning, correct? No charges have been filed against Gage, have they? What now? Is it over?


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## Stephen

No the board members that resigned are not returning. They were allowed to return under certain stipulations but they would not agree to those conditions. I understand the board members who resigned are appealing to the the Presbytery of Southern Florida. Those board members were replaced by some ruling and teaching elders and one man who is a licentate and student at Knox. Gage has been cleared of charges, but I do not know what will happen from here. This could have been a simple thing but it has become so magnified that I am not sure how the seminary will recover.


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## NaphtaliPress

It may not recover. If not, I"m sure there is plenty of blame to spread around. However, if a case has been filed, that may clarify some things.


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## PuritanCovenanter

By recover do you mean that it will suffer doctrinal problems in the future, or ecclesiastical problems, or both?


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## Scott

This is the first I have heard of these events. It is very sad. I know that part of an ordinary member's church covenant in joining a PCA church, he is obligated to study the peace of the church. It sounds to me like the board does not take that approach. It is sorrowful that organizational divorce is such a ready option for so many people today, including leaders. All churches and organizations have problems, including sinful problems. It is ordinarily better to just stay there instead of abandoning the organization. That is part of what it means to study the peace the church, or to have a similar attitude toward an organization. To leave board positions over typology is absurd.


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## turmeric

Scott said:


> This is the first I have heard of these events. It is very sad. I know that part of an ordinary member's church covenant in joining a PCA church, he is obligated to study the peace of the church. It sounds to me like the board does not take that approach... To leave board positions over typology is absurd.



What is a theologian to do when he is responsible for the wellbeing of students' souls and he really feels that something heretical is being taught? I'm not opining about whether it actually _was_ heretical, I would actually like to know that at some point. What I'm asking is; what someone like Sproul or Phillips is supposed to do if he finds that something he is sure is heresy is being taught-and then when he deals with it, what he's done is overturned?


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## DMcFadden

I have already commented on the organizational dynamics which seem to be operative here (i.e., mainly the death of a strong leader/founder and the uncertainty it injects into all relationships of authority and power in the organization). 

Additional to that, and in partial answer to Scott, trustees are the custodians of the mission, vision, and values of an organization. If the trustees, in conformity to their fiduciary and spiritual oversight responsibilities, made a determination regarding a professor, only to be overturned by the church, it must have left them feeling impotent. At that point, it becomes an integrity issue. How can you remain on a board when you feel that you are prevented from exercising your responsibilities?

Now, my comments do NOT take into account whether the board should have acted so quickly or if their jdugment was just. I merely think that if they believed their action to be correct, the church's action left them with little choice. 

As a non-presbyterian, this seems like a VERY strange arrangement. Do you all have other institutions that have this kind of dual authority (local church and independent board)???


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## NaphtaliPress

I think Knox is unique being a ministry of a local Presbyterian church rather than an independent organization or under the oversight of a Presbytery or General Assembly.


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## Stephen

Scott, you have made a brilliant observation. Let us put aside the issue of Warren Gage's typology (which has never been questioned in Reformed Circles until now) and look at how the matter was handled. Board members do not simply resign in the manner that the individuals on the Knox board did. In a normal process of accusing someone of guilt it takes time to decide and look into the matter. If you look at the resignation letters of some of the board member, one in particular, the attitude and language is infamitory and accusatory. That alone, should cause one to question the manner in which it was handled. I will not state who I think is right or wrong, but how some of the board members responded to the session overturning their ruling, raises red flags. Many have felt that this entire matter was poorly handled, and this really is the issue.


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## Stephen

Tumeric, you raise a legimate question. I think the present issue with Knox Seminary centers around the process of how the board should have handled the overturning of their decision. The problem is not an easy one to solve. The board of Knox Seminary and the board of Westminster Accademy, two ministries of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church, have always been regarded (unless it has changed) as a commission of the session. Knox has never been confronted with a situation like this, so it is not that easy to know how to proceed. Knox is not like most seminaries that are independent of a session or congregation, so technically Warren Gage as an assistant minister of CRPC is under the session. I am not sure how it will be settled, but we must remember that Christ is king over His church.


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## NaphtaliPress

As was raised here or somewhere, I cannot see how the Knox board could be a commission of the session if it had a woman (non session member I'm sure; this isn't the PCUSA) on the board. Maybe Fred can elaborate on this point again?


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## calgal

So let me get this straight: CRPC has its own seminary? Where in the BCO do provisions for such an action exist?


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## Stephen

Naphtali, I have raised the same question about having a woman on a commission. Having been at Coral Ridge I know first hand that the Knox board is a commission, but I do agree with Fred that a commission should be made up of ruling or teaching elders from the session. This perhpaps is where this situation gets really messy, because of how the seminary is organized.


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## Stephen

In response to calgal, yes Knox Seminary is a ministry of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church and was established by Dr. Kennedy in 1989. It has a board but is under the authority of the session. There is no provision in the BCO for establishishing an independent seminary like Knox any more than there is for establishing a national seminary, such as Covenant Theological Seminary in St. Louis (the only PCA seminary). The BCO does not legislate everything we do, but is simply a guide to maintain order and harmony in the church. Having graduated from Knox I appreciate the seminary and the vision the Lord gave Dr. Kennedy. There is no ruling against establishing a seminary like Knox. There are a number of seminaries that are similar to Knox. Dr. Kennedy certainly did not forsee this problem coming, but this is an issue that is particulary related to Coral Ridge church itself that most people do not know about. I personally think that the way Knox is set up has its strengths but also it weaknessess. But when you look at issues in national semiaries like what occured at Westminster East with Norman Sheperd, they have their problems as well. Remember no system is infallible. Depraved creatures are certainly prone to error.


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## etexas

They should settle it with a "Steel Cage Match"...that would solve everything.


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## weinhold

weinhold said:


> Bandguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While there were other objections to Dr. Gage’s style of teaching such as the *description of spiritual regeneration as the “spiritual rape” of an individual*, and other ill advised comments, the primary reason for the certain Members resignation was Dr. Gage’s hermeneutical interpretation as being counter confessional.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How disgusting to make such a statement. That sounds like something one would hear from the Caners or some Arminian prof. Isn't this a reformed institution?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think John Donne said it best:
> 
> 
> 
> Batter my heart, three person'd God; for, you
> As yet but knocke, breathe, shine, and seeke to mend;
> That I may rise, and stand, o'erthrow mee,'and bend
> Your force, to breake, blowe, burn and make me new.
> I, like an usurpt towne, to'another due,
> Labour to'admit you, but Oh, to no end,
> Reason your viceroy in mee, mee should defend,
> But is captiv'd, and proves weake or untrue.
> Yet dearely'I love you,'and would be loved faine,
> But am betroth'd unto your enemie:
> Divorce mee,'untie, or breake that knot againe;
> Take mee to you, imprison mee, for I
> Except you'enthrall mee, never shall be free,
> *Nor ever chast, except you ravish mee.*
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Upon further review, I thought I should amend the previous post shown above. I think it was an inadvertent misinterpretation of Donne's sonnet. As a correction, I need merely to point to the second line, where God's method is "knocke, breathe, shine, and seeke to mend." The speaker's desire for ravishment is contrary to fact.


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## Scott

turmeric said:


> Scott said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is the first I have heard of these events. It is very sad. I know that part of an ordinary member's church covenant in joining a PCA church, he is obligated to study the peace of the church. It sounds to me like the board does not take that approach... To leave board positions over typology is absurd.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is a theologian to do when he is responsible for the wellbeing of students' souls and he really feels that something heretical is being taught? I'm not opining about whether it actually _was_ heretical, I would actually like to know that at some point. What I'm asking is; what someone like Sproul or Phillips is supposed to do if he finds that something he is sure is heresy is being taught-and then when he deals with it, what he's done is overturned?
Click to expand...

It is important to remember that we are talking about typology. We are not talking about something addressed in the apostle's creed, sola fide, or something similarly core. Reformed seminaries accept numerous exceptions to the Westminster Confession by students and professors. At Westminster Seminary, one of the most common exceptions is to the nature of God Himself (many object to the statement that he has "no passions"). There are numerous exceptions to infant baptism (many baptists attend reformed seminaries), the Fourth Commandment (typically regarding recreation on the Sabbath), and other things. 

It is very hard to imagine typology being a big deal at all, especially since it does not define doctrine so much as use the Old Testament to reinforce the clear doctrines revealed in the New Testament. I have read a fair amount from Gage and he is very good and orthodox. If someone gives him a text from the OT, he is far better able to describe how it illustrates gospel truths that most anyone I have seen. 

In terms of the broader question about what to do when problems arise, I think just leaving is typically a terrible idea. It is the same impulse that spurs people to divorce when things go badly. It is the same thing that gives people such a lack of commitment to churches and other organizations. Endure the bad and work for the good.


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## fredtgreco

Scott,

Typology not a big deal? Ask Origin.

This issue of the "sense" of Scripture was at the heart of the Reformation. It was this issue that brought about change on the solas. Calvin's _Institutes _are replete with this.


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## Stephen

Scott in response to your last entry, yes men can take exceptions to the WCOF and I agree Dr. Gage's typology is not contrary to the confession, but Gage was not holding an exception to the confession. The original problem that led to the board's decision was not his typology but some statements he made in class, some taken out of context. You would have to fire every seminary professor for mistating a point. Gage did apologize in the beginning for some things that he stated incorrectly, but it was not something contrary to Christian faith or doctrine.


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## wsw201

NaphtaliPress said:


> I think Knox is unique being a ministry of a local Presbyterian church rather than an independent organization or under the oversight of a Presbytery or General Assembly.



Unfortunately, churches over the past 20 years have been getting into the education business and setting up separate school boards is par for the course. Most Sessions are not called to be school administrators but the spiritual leaders of the church. Therefore, they set up a separate board to handle all the day to day issues, any fund raising and hiring and firing teachers. The idea of a church having a separate school board is a recipe for disaster (I speak from experience!). If a Session does not want to get into running a church sponsored school, then they should reconsider starting a school to begin with.

One thing to remember about CRPC and Knox, Dr. Kennedy was not only the Sr Pastor and Session Member but was also the Chancellor of Knox. When he died that left a big hole not only at CRPC but at Knox.


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## Stephen

Fredrick, I agree that Origen had very serious theological problems and held to an allogorical interpretation of Scripture, but read Gage's material, especially his John/Revelation project, which is still on the Knox website and was also taught by the Dean of Students, who initially brought charges to the board. There is nothing in his material contrary to the confession and if you read some of the Scottish Puritans of the 1800's, especially Robert Murray M'Cheyne, you will find them using much typology. The issue in much of this fiasco is that noone teaches typology in Reformed circles today and Gage has tried to bring this back into Reformed circles. I still do not understand how Warren Gage could have been suspended when he has taught his typology from the first day he arrived at Knox.


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## PuritanCovenanter

Stephen said:


> The original problem that led to the board's decision was not his typology but some statements he made in class, some taken out of context.



So Stephen, are you saying that R.C. Sproul, Rick Phillips, Greg Miseyko, Rick Penney & Cortez Cooper misinterpreted or didn't get what they were examining correct? They didn't understand that the student's reports were taken out of context? Are you saying these men acted rashly and irresponsible in their decisions as Elders and board members? Is this what you are saying about these Elders? I just want to make sure you know that that is what I hear you saying. And that seems to be very serious. You are making some serious accuastions against these men of God. And I want you to realize this. Are you willing to stand up under the scrutiny of this?

(1Ti 5:19) Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.


I know you are an Elder and close to the situation but it seems you are levelling some charges here.


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## Scott

fredtgreco said:


> Scott,
> 
> Typology not a big deal? Ask Origin.
> 
> This issue of the "sense" of Scripture was at the heart of the Reformation. It was this issue that brought about change on the solas. Calvin's _Institutes _are replete with this.


It is not reasonable to compare Gage to Origen. Origen's emphasis was allegory, not typology, and allegory is what he is mostly criticized for. Gage's writings are allegory and the doctrines he teaches are consistent with the WCF. Also, it is not a substantial issue of the reformation. It was a minor issue in terms of the relative volume of material written on it, the list of grievances against the Roman Church, the prominence in confessional documents and the like. Of course the reformers had a way of saying every issue was monumental (perhaps one reason that one of their legacies is unprecedented division), so you can find inflamatory language on many issues that most of us would consider not central or core, including the issues I mentioned earlier (Sabbath recreation, infant baptism, and the like).


----------



## Scott

Stephen said:


> The issue in much of this fiasco is that noone teaches typology in Reformed circles today and Gage has tried to bring this back into Reformed circles. I still do not understand how Warren Gage could have been suspended when he has taught his typology from the first day he arrived at Knox.


This is so true. So many people like to say that the entire Bible talks about Jesus, but are completely unable to actually draw Jesus from most of the Old Testament. Typology should be that bridge in many cases. It is not accidental that so many stories, ceremonies, and the like follow the pattern of the gospel story and the life of Christ. Most people just miss it (sadly).


----------



## Kevin

PuritanCovenanter said:


> Stephen said:
> 
> 
> 
> The original problem that led to the board's decision was not his typology but some statements he made in class, some taken out of context.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So Stephen, are you saying that R.C. Sproul, Rick Phillips, Greg Miseyko, Rick Penney & Cortez Cooper misinterpreted or didn't get what they were examining correct? They didn't understand that the student's reports were taken out of context? Are you saying these men acted rashly and irresponsible in their decisions as Elders and board members? Is this what you are saying about these Elders? I just want to make sure you know that that is what I hear you saying. And that seems to be very serious. You are making some serious accuastions against these men of God. And I want you to realize this. Are you willing to stand up under the scrutiny of this?
> 
> (1Ti 5:19) Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
> 
> 
> I know you are an Elder and close to the situation but it seems you are levelling some charges here.
Click to expand...


I think we should be open to the possibility that that is exactly the case. 

As much as we all owe these men, we should not close our eyes to the possibility that even they may have been influenced/distracted by something other than the issue here.


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## JoeRe4mer

DMcFadden said:


> As a Californian, I have NO clue as to the corporate culture of Coral Ridge or Knox. However, my guess is that whenever a larger-than-life leader of the stature of Kennedy disappears from the scene, you should expect some pretty significant missteps by people trying to adjust to the political environment absent the founder. Look at any large church of whatever polity deal with the death or retirement of a founder or long-term pastor. These kinds of foolish actions are sadly all too common. I pray that they don't do anything to besmirch the reputation of a fine school or some very good people. Sheesh!



Brother what you have said is the best description of the problem I have herd. It is truly a shame how often it is that when a good leader steps down that sooo many problems seem to ensue.


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## Scott

In terms of the number of meanings of a text, isn't the only part of the Confession that explicitly addresses the issue one parenthetical in par 1(IX)?


> The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture, is the Scripture itself; and therefore, when there is a question about the true and full sense of any scripture *(which is not manifold, but one)*, it may be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly.



Is there anything else in the shorter or longer catechisms that even mention the issue? And the above parenthetical does not eliminate typology, as many reformers agreed with typology.


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## JasonG.

*Let's Get it Right At Least.....*

First, it is fallacy to say that since the old KTS board was trying to correct Dr. Gage on his hermeneutic then therefore they reject all typology (i.e. believe in Marsh's Dictum or something like it). This is patently false. All of the individuals who were on the board believe in typology (does that even need to be stated???). The issue was what guides and constrains typology.

Second, the KTS board took issue with Dr. Gage’s hermeneutic in that Dr. Gage believes that Christ is on every page in every phrase, word, etc. in the OT. It is one thing to say that the entire OT points toward Christ (Dr. Gregory Beale is great in this area), and quite another to say that every word, phrase, paragraph, etc. is actually teaching something about Christ. Dr. Gage himself admits that his hermeneutic is new and that it is not in-line with a traditionally Reformed approached to hermeneutics - yet he still claims that it is in-line with the Westminster Standards. I ask anyone who thinks Dr. Gage's hermeneutic is in-line with the way the Reformers and others approached typology, please produce the Reformer, theologian etc. and the exact reference where they interpret Scripture like Dr. Gage.

When Dr. Gage approaches a passage with the presupposition that Christ is in EVERYTHING in the OT, he forces meaning into a text that is not only not readily evident (i.e. not by good or necessary inference and/or not clarified by a clearer passages elsewhere), but even stretches the bounds of legitimate reasoning. Essentially, Dr. Gage seems to have NO CONSTRAINTS to his typological interpretation(s) of the OT. Two cases in point:

*1. Dr. Gage taught that Absalom is a type of Christ because he was a son of David, got stuck in a tree, and had his side pierced. Is this honestly pointing to Christ in the NT? Or, can it be used for illustrative purposes? There is a huge difference between dogmatically asserting types and building theology from such understandings and simply utilizing the reference as an illustration of a NT reality. However, I think even Dr. Gage’s Absalom understanding is stretch. What honor, beauty, and further clarification does it bring to the work of Christ? WHAT’S THE PURPOSE of such a conjecture?
*
*2. Dr. Gage teaches that when the Levities crossed the Jordan with Joshua, that since the water of the Jordan parted when the priests carrying the Ark, which represents God’s presence, stepped into the Jordan that this is a type of Christ’s crucifixion. Dr. Gage states that the Jordan represented death to the Israelites and so the Ark passing through the Jordan (i.e. death) foreshadowed Christ’s (the God-man’s) death. Thus, when the Gospel’s testify that Christ replied to John the Baptist that He is to be baptized in order to fulfill all righteousness that this was THE fulfillment of the Ark crossing the Jordan. Jesus HAD to be baptized because the Ark crossed the Jordan. That’s just a stretch - Dr. Gage utilizes a hermeneutic based primarily upon and understanding of meta-narratives in ancient books (i.e. Plato’s Republic, Dante’s works, etc.) which are to have a broader meta-narrative on every page and in every element of the work. This approach, which is a huge break from any Reformation hermeneutic and which you can only find when you start to look at Bernard of Clairvaux and his school of though in Roman Catholicism, causes obscure passages of Scripture to become foundations of doctrine and NT understanding that are NOT warranted.*
–> So, the board’s motive in addressing and desiring to correct Dr. Gage was not the implementation of Marsh’s Dictum, but it was to restrain Dr. Gage’s unrestrained hermeneutic.

Third, one thing that separated the Scottish Reformation from Roman Catholic (not Reformed Dutch) Scholasticism was the mandate that we MUST NOT CONJECTURE about theology or Scripture. With a very few exceptions, the tradition of the WCF has been to take Scripture at face value and then apply logic and proper reason. There are not secondary “spiritual” or “mystic” meanings behind the text. Unfortunately, that is exactly what St. Bernard’s and Dr. Gage’s hermeneutic lead to. Personally, as a student who has had more than 12 semester hours of studying underneath Dr. Gage, my concern has never been so much with Dr. Gage’s theology (hermeneutic yes, theology no), but with the students he is teaching who do not have the brilliant and sharp mind that Dr. Gage does. As such, if they take Dr. Gage’s hermeneutic and run with it, guaranteed they will come up with not only “mystical” meanings, but heresy.


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## PuritanCovenanter

Well, Jason brings a little more light into the situation. I just wonder if it can be substantiated. It seems like charges have been made on both sides. It needs to be sorted out and taken care of. 

Jason, thanks for giving us your insight as one of Dr. Gage's students. BTW, it sounds like Dr. Gage's hermeneutic is being questioned and not anything that would lend itself to a character flaw. If what Jason is saying is the truth, I understand why the original board would be alarmed. And I don't think these men are men who would jump off the boat in protest for an illogical reason. They are solid, faithful, educated, and wise men. And I will bet they are not prone to making rash decisions. 

My question sill stands for TE Stephen. 



PuritanCovenanter said:


> Stephen said:
> 
> 
> 
> The original problem that led to the board's decision was not his typology but some statements he made in class, some taken out of context.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So Stephen, are you saying that R.C. Sproul, Rick Phillips, Greg Miseyko, Rick Penney & Cortez Cooper misinterpreted or didn't get what they were examining correct? They didn't understand that the student's reports were taken out of context? Are you saying these men acted rashly and irresponsible in their decisions as Elders and board members? Is this what you are saying about these Elders? I just want to make sure you know that that is what I hear you saying. And that seems to be very serious. You are making some serious accusations against these men of God. And I want you to realize this. Are you willing to stand up under the scrutiny of this?
> 
> (1Ti 5:19) Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
> 
> 
> I know you are an Elder and close to the situation but it seems you are levelling some charges here.
Click to expand...



It seems we have two or three witnesses in R.C. Sproul, Rick Phillips, Greg Miseyko, Rick Penney & Cortez Cooper, that there is a problem here. 

love the new smiley....


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## Stephen

PuritanCovenanter said:


> Stephen said:
> 
> 
> 
> The original problem that led to the board's decision was not his typology but some statements he made in class, some taken out of context.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So Stephen, are you saying that R.C. Sproul, Rick Phillips, Greg Miseyko, Rick Penney & Cortez Cooper misinterpreted or didn't get what they were examining correct? They didn't understand that the student's reports were taken out of context? Are you saying these men acted rashly and irresponsible in their decisions as Elders and board members? Is this what you are saying about these Elders? I just want to make sure you know that that is what I hear you saying. And that seems to be very serious. You are making some serious accuastions against these men of God. And I want you to realize this. Are you willing to stand up under the scrutiny of this?
> 
> (1Ti 5:19) Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
> 
> 
> I know you are an Elder and close to the situation but it seems you are levelling some charges here.
Click to expand...


Brother, I think you misunderstood what I said. I never said that these board members misrepresented anything and I never brought any accusations against them. I was making the point that initially a student brought a complaint to the dean of faculty regarding some things that Dr. Gage said in class. Those involved went back and listened to recordings of Dr. Gage's lectures and some quotes were taken from the lectures. He did apologize for some things he mistated in class and I said that many seminary professors mistate things at times (it was a general statement that was not directed at any individual). I raised the concern that you have to be careful in taking a quote that someone says out of context. We do have to give people the benefit of the doubt. Myself and others feel that the suspending of Dr. Gage was rather sudden and quite a surprise considering that Dr. Gage has taught this same material since he came to the seminary in early 2000. I did not call into question anyone's motive. As a former student, I have great affection for those on both sides of the issue. I hope this clears up any misunderstanding.


----------



## PuritanCovenanter

Stephen said:


> PuritanCovenanter said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stephen said:
> 
> 
> 
> The original problem that led to the board's decision was not his typology but some statements he made in class, some taken out of context.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So Stephen, are you saying that R.C. Sproul, Rick Phillips, Greg Miseyko, Rick Penney & Cortez Cooper misinterpreted or didn't get what they were examining correct? They didn't understand that the student's reports were taken out of context? Are you saying these men acted rashly and irresponsible in their decisions as Elders and board members? Is this what you are saying about these Elders? I just want to make sure you know that that is what I hear you saying. And that seems to be very serious. You are making some serious accuastions against these men of God. And I want you to realize this. Are you willing to stand up under the scrutiny of this?
> 
> (1Ti 5:19) Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
> 
> 
> I know you are an Elder and close to the situation but it seems you are levelling some charges here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Brother, I think you misunderstood what I said. I never said that these board members misrepresented anything and I never brought any accusations against them. I was making the point that initially a student brought a complaint to the dean of faculty regarding some things that Dr. Gage said in class. Those involved went back and listened to recordings of Dr. Gage's lectures and some quotes were taken from the lectures. He did apologize for some things he mistated in class and I said that many seminary professors mistate things at times (it was a general statement that was not directed at any individual). I raised the concern that you have to be careful in taking a quote that someone says out of context. We do have to give people the benefit of the doubt. Myself and others feel that the suspending of Dr. Gage was rather sudden and quite a surprise considering that Dr. Gage has taught this same material since he came to the seminary in early 2000. I did not call into question anyone's motive. As a former student, I have great affection for those on both sides of the issue. I hope this clears up any misunderstanding.
Click to expand...



But you did say.... the problem that led to the boards decision was some statements made in class, and some of them that were taken out of context. That does imply that their decision was based upon statements taken out of context as well. I agree one needs to be careful when summarizing these things. Communication is a dangerous business.


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## Hamalas

Scott said:


> This is the first I have heard of these events. It is very sad. I know that part of an ordinary member's church covenant in joining a PCA church, he is obligated to study the peace of the church. It sounds to me like the board does not take that approach. It is sorrowful that organizational divorce is such a ready option for so many people today, including leaders. All churches and organizations have problems, including sinful problems. It is ordinarily better to just stay there instead of abandoning the organization. That is part of what it means to study the peace the church, or to have a similar attitude toward an organization. To leave board positions over typology is absurd.



Don't forget that we are required to promote both the peace AND purity of the church. They are two sides of the same coin and both must have proper attention given to them. However we cannot give up purity to maintain the human illusion of "peace."

P.S. I say this as someone who knew nothing about the Knox controversy prior to reading this thread.


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## Stephen

Hamalas said:


> Scott said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is the first I have heard of these events. It is very sad. I know that part of an ordinary member's church covenant in joining a PCA church, he is obligated to study the peace of the church. It sounds to me like the board does not take that approach. It is sorrowful that organizational divorce is such a ready option for so many people today, including leaders. All churches and organizations have problems, including sinful problems. It is ordinarily better to just stay there instead of abandoning the organization. That is part of what it means to study the peace the church, or to have a similar attitude toward an organization. To leave board positions over typology is absurd.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't forget that we are required to promote both the peace AND purity of the church. They are two sides of the same coin and both must have proper attention given to them. However we cannot give up purity to maintain the human illusion of "peace."
> 
> P.S. I say this as someone who knew nothing about the Knox controversy prior to reading this thread.
Click to expand...


Thank you, brother for the reminder. There is always the tendancy to point suspicion at someone theologically and disreard our responsibility to promote peace and brotherly kindness.


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## py3ak

Breuss Wane had an interesting take on the _hermeneutical_ side of this situation.


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## Pilgrim

py3ak said:


> Breuss Wane had an interesting take on the _hermeneutical_ side of this situation.



Dr. Calvin Beisner responds in the comment section as well.


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## Pilgrim

I see Dr. Beisner is no longer at Knox Seminary. Did he leave over this controversy? Have any of the other faculty also left?


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## biblicalthought

Let's keep the whole situation in prayer. 



> If Dr. Kennedy was still alive....
> 
> When the cat is away the mice play.



This is true. One problem here is that Dr. Kennedy did not set up a successor. Thus, once the Lord took him home, all sorts of problems arose. Dr. Kennedy and Dr. Morey were close, dear friends over the years. Dr. Morey has been invited to Coral Ridge to speak there because of the turmoil that they are in. Of course, if anyone can whip them into shape, it's him. But we don't expect any miracles unless it pleases God to grant any. I think Morey will also hit up Knox as well.


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## Civbert

Pilgrim said:


> py3ak said:
> 
> 
> 
> Breuss Wane had an interesting take on the _hermeneutical_ side of this situation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr. Calvin Beisner responds in the comment section as well.
Click to expand...


And what a comment!


----------



## Stephen

Pilgrim said:


> I see Dr. Beisner is no longer at Knox Seminary. Did he leave over this controversy? Has any of the other faculty also left?



Dr. Beisner and Dr. Reymond are no longer at Knox, but Reymond was in semi-retirement and fully retired from the seminary. Dr. White is still on the faculty but is no longer the Dean of Faculty.


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## Stephen

biblicalthought said:


> Let's keep the whole situation in prayer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If Dr. Kennedy was still alive....
> 
> When the cat is away the mice play.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is true. One problem here is that Dr. Kennedy did not set up a successor. Thus, once the Lord took him home, all sorts of problems arose. Dr. Kennedy and Dr. Morey were close, dear friends over the years. Dr. Morey has been invited to Coral Ridge to speak there because of the turmoil that they are in. Of course, if anyone can whip them into shape, it's him. But we don't expect any miracles unless it pleases God to grant any. I think Morey will also hit up Knox as well.
Click to expand...


Yes, I think you have a more accurate picture of what happened at Knox. When Dr. Kennedy died it left a huge hole in the leadership and I always predicted that this would happen. Remember, though in Presbyterianism we do not appoint successors as in an Episcopal system of government, but they certainly did not set things in order for the event of his death. When he was advancing in age and his health started failing, which it had been for years, the board and the session should have started looking more seriously at their situation. This is a classic case of crisis mode. You never lead from a crisis mode. I am curious, who is Dr. Morey?


----------



## Stephen

Knox has now joined partnership with RTS, so there may be better days ahead. Dr. Michael Milton, is one of the original Knox board members, and is the new President of RTS/Charlotte, so this gives me some hope for its future. He is a godly man and a graduate of Knox, so he has the interest of the seminary at heart.


----------



## Stephen

biblicalthought said:


> Let's keep the whole situation in prayer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If Dr. Kennedy was still alive....
> 
> When the cat is away the mice play.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is true. One problem here is that Dr. Kennedy did not set up a successor. Thus, once the Lord took him home, all sorts of problems arose. Dr. Kennedy and Dr. Morey were close, dear friends over the years. Dr. Morey has been invited to Coral Ridge to speak there because of the turmoil that they are in. Of course, if anyone can whip them into shape, it's him. But we don't expect any miracles unless it pleases God to grant any. I think Morey will also hit up Knox as well.
Click to expand...


I am sorry brother, but I don't think I have officially welcomed you to Puritan Board. Welcome aboard. It is great to have you with us. Sit back, have a drink, and enjoy the journey.


----------



## biblicalthought

> Remember, though in Presbyterianism we do not appoint successors as in an Episcopal system of government,



Yes, I suppose I used a poor choice of words. 



> I am sorry brother, but I don't think I have officially welcomed you to Puritan Board. Welcome aboard. It is great to have you with us. Sit back, have a drink, and enjoy the journey.



Thank you! I have enjoyed interacting here thus far.




> I am curious, who is Dr. Morey?



Dr. Robert Morey. He graduated from Westminster with Bahnsen, Poythress, and that bunch. He also studied under, and received personal training from Francis Schaeffer, Van Til, Gordon Clark, Martin Lloyd Jones, Carl F. Henry, Walter Martin, Murray, and more. Author of over 40 books, over 1,300 lectures. He is the one who inspired John Frame's Ordo Salutis specialty (pedagogical order). He is president of the apologetics ministry Faith Defenders and operates the Research and Education Foundation. He is my pastor and mentor.


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## Civbert

biblicalthought said:


> Dr. Robert Morey. He graduated from Westminster with Bahnsen, Poythress, and that bunch. He also studied under, and received personal training from Francis Schaeffer, Van Til, Gordon Clark, Martin Lloyd Jones, Carl F. Henry, Walter Martin, Murray, and more. Author of over 40 books, over 1,300 lectures. He is the one who inspired John Frame's Ordo Salutis specialty (pedagogical order). He is president of the apologetics ministry Faith Defenders and operates the Research and Education Foundation. He is my pastor and mentor.



Wow! I Googled Dr. Morey and he sure has taken some heat. I'm a little suspicious at this point because I've never heard of him and he is said to recieved "_personal training from Francis Schaeffer, Van Til, Gordon Clark, Martin Lloyd Jones, Carl F. Henry, Walter Martin, Murray, and more_". That's quite a pedegree from someone I've never heard of. 

So I'm asking if anyone else here can vouch for Dr. Morey. My research so far has not left me with a good feeling - but I'm withholding judgment until I know more. 

Anyone??


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## Pilgrim

Dr. Morey has been around a long time. He has done some good work on cults and similar issues. I hope I'm wrong, but judging from his style I have a hard time seeing him in the role of peacemaker.


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## RamistThomist

He's a bulldog. I think he misunderstood Dooyeweerd (not that anyone really cares). He is supposed to be real good on Islam.


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## Stephen

Pilgrim said:


> Dr. Morey has been around a long time. He has done some good work on cults and similar issues. I hope I'm wrong, but judging from his style I have a hard time seeing him in the role of peacemaker.



Yes, I am familiar with some of his books, but that is all I know. He did some things with James Kennedy years ago in the area of Coral Ridge Media. I don't know anything, but I would suspect he preached at Coral Ridge recently or is scheduled to preach. I do not think he is in any consultation with Coral Ridge, other than the tv. and radio ministry, which is struggling. He is Southern Baptist, so I do not think he would be qualified to do much with Coral Ridge.


----------



## Civbert

Pilgrim said:


> Dr. Morey has been around a long time. He has done some good work on cults and similar issues. I hope I'm wrong, but judging from his style I have a hard time seeing him in the role of peacemaker.



I found some pretty nasty stuff written about Dr. Morey, but this was from the liberal press and pro-Islam types. Anyone who speaks publicly and truthfully about Islam is bound to get hit hard. Some of the accusations boarder on slander. Dr. Morey's wikipedia page is very negative, and seems to be based primarily on the negative article in an Orange Co. newspaper. Someone familiar with Dr. Morey's work should edit the article on wikipedia - especially to respond to claims reported such as he claims to be a consultant for the FBI on Islamic terrorist's in the US, and his claim that terrorist have three nuclear weapons in the US. Are there true claims made by Dr. Morey?

Dr. Morey's credentials sound too good to be true - especially his _personally_ working with/under Van Til, Clark, Schaeffer, etc.. Could someone flesh that out? When, where, what was the outcome? 

I'd also like to know what denomination his church belongs to.


----------



## Pilgrim

Civbert said:


> Pilgrim said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dr. Morey has been around a long time. He has done some good work on cults and similar issues. I hope I'm wrong, but judging from his style I have a hard time seeing him in the role of peacemaker.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I found some pretty nasty stuff written about Dr. Morey, but this was from the liberal press and pro-Islam types. Anyone who speaks publicly and truthfully about Islam is bound to get hit hard. Some of the accusations boarder on slander. Dr. Morey's wikipedia page is very negative, and seems to be based primarily on the negative article in an Orange Co. newspaper. Someone familiar with Dr. Morey's work should edit the article on wikipedia - especially to respond to claims reported such as he claims to be a consultant for the FBI on Islamic terrorist's in the US, and his claim that terrorist have three nuclear weapons in the US. Are there true claims made by Dr. Morey?
> 
> Dr. Morey's credentials sound too good to be true - especially his _personally_ working with/under Van Til, Clark, Schaeffer, etc.. Could someone flesh that out? When, where, what was the outcome?
> 
> I'd also like to know what denomination his church belongs to.
Click to expand...


He is a Baptist. Some in this thread say Southern Baptist. He went to WTS, so studied under CVT there. Going to L'Abri would qualify as "studied under Schaeffer." Not sure where he would have studied under Clark.


----------



## biblicalthought

> Someone familiar with Dr. Morey's work should edit the article on wikipedia



I have tried to do this several times, but it gets edited back. Too frustrating to keep up with, the Muslims are monitoring it quite closely. 

The SBC ties are with the church plant he started in Irvine, CA. But he is Baptist-ic. 



> Not sure where he would have studied under Clark.



I think this took place in Dr. Clark's living room, from what I remember.

His book "Studies in the Atonement" is, to me, the most valuable contribution to contemporary theology in at least the last half-century. Dr. John Frame loves it so much that it inspired much of his work on the Ordo. Dr. Roger Nicole called it a "soundly Reformed perspective" and also commended Morey's groundbreaking chapter on the Ordo Salutis. In fact, when Frame was at WTS, he used to have Morey stand in for him. But since he self-publishes and has zero marketing, he is confined within a very small circle.

He also has a B.A. in philosophy from Covenant College besides the MDiv and DMin from WTS. A funny story, D.A. Carson said he and Morey are two of probably five exegetical theologians left - in the world! What a statement. Anyhow, I hope I addressed the curiosity.


----------



## Stephen

Civbert said:


> Pilgrim said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dr. Morey has been around a long time. He has done some good work on cults and similar issues. I hope I'm wrong, but judging from his style I have a hard time seeing him in the role of peacemaker.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I found some pretty nasty stuff written about Dr. Morey, but this was from the liberal press and pro-Islam types. Anyone who speaks publicly and truthfully about Islam is bound to get hit hard. Some of the accusations boarder on slander. Dr. Morey's wikipedia page is very negative, and seems to be based primarily on the negative article in an Orange Co. newspaper. Someone familiar with Dr. Morey's work should edit the article on wikipedia - especially to respond to claims reported such as he claims to be a consultant for the FBI on Islamic terrorist's in the US, and his claim that terrorist have three nuclear weapons in the US. Are there true claims made by Dr. Morey?
> 
> Dr. Morey's credentials sound too good to be true - especially his _personally_ working with/under Van Til, Clark, Schaeffer, etc.. Could someone flesh that out? When, where, what was the outcome?
> 
> I'd also like to know what denomination his church belongs to.
Click to expand...


Southern Baptist


----------



## SolaGratia

Dr. Robert Morey ministry info. can be found at Welcome to Faith Defenders

His book on the Trinity is also very good.


----------



## R Harris

*The Paradox of Knox Seminary*

This may be a little off subject, but not by much.

Obviously, Knox Seminary is named after John Knox, the great Scottish Presbyterian and reformer - the one whom Mary Queen of Scots said that she feared his prayers more than an army of 10,000 men.

I wonder how many faculty, staff, or students of Knox really knew what John Knox believed - and if they believe what he believed. My guess is no. I seriously doubt they they would even adher to half of what Knox believed. I always wondered if Dr. Kennedy really knew what Knox believed - especially regarding psalms in worship or the use of instruments - things Knox did *not* consider minor, quibble points.

I think if Knox were to have walked into Coral Ridge and seen the massive pipe organ, he would have immediately turned and fled. But that is just my reading of Knox, which is by no means exhaustive.

So, bottom line, it is sad to see this problem at Knox - but when you discard sections of the WCF and you start down the slippery slope, then sometimes reaching bottom is not far off.


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## lwadkins

I would think that Knox, although they may have issues, is a long way from the bottom yet.


----------

