# deacons/laity preaching?



## thistle93 (Feb 8, 2010)

Those of you who are pastors would you allow a deacon and/or one of the laity to ever preach in the pulpit? If not, why? If so, why? Any precautions? Thank you!

For His Glory-
matthew


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## Kevin (Feb 9, 2010)

Almost every presbyterian bco (book of church order) allows for several classes of lay preachers. Students, elders, gifted teachers, or in my favorite phrase (from the ARP FOG) "...some other man".


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## KMK (Feb 9, 2010)

As long as they are 'lawfully ordained', which would include 1) that they actually desired to preach and 2) the church eldership recognized that they had been 'called' to do so.


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## rbcbob (Feb 9, 2010)

thistle93 said:


> Those of you who are pastors would you allow a deacon and/or one of the laity to ever preach in the pulpit? If not, why? If so, why? Any precautions? Thank you!
> 
> For His Glory-
> matthew


 
According to the LBC:



> 26:11. Although it be incumbent on the bishops or pastors of the churches, to be instant in preaching the word, by way of office, *yet the work of preaching the word is not so peculiarly confined to them but that others also gifted and fitted by the Holy Spirit for it, and approved and called by the church, may and ought to perform it.*


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## Kevin (Feb 9, 2010)

I disagree with pastor Ken, (and in doing so I agree with every (?) Presbyterian BCO) ordination is NOT required prior to preaching. Ordination IS rquired prior to administering the sacraments but occasional, or lay preaching is almost universal by presbyterians. 

I know some OPC's like to think that they don't allow it, but they do, every time a candidate under care gets up to preach.


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## Dewi Sant (Feb 12, 2010)

thistle93 said:


> Those of you who are pastors would you allow a deacon and/or one of the laity to ever preach in the pulpit? If not, why? If so, why? Any precautions? Thank you!
> 
> For His Glory-
> matthew



Dear Matthew,
I would say no, except that you said "ever". Otherwise, no. If a man has been called to preach, evidence of that calling will be seen (he is attending or has graduated from seminary, knows Greek & hebrew, etc.). The best approach, in the absence of an ordained Minister, is to have someone who is apt to teach, well spoken, well read and accepted by the congregation, read from scripture. If a Lord's Day sermon is in order, have them read from the pulpit the sermon of an ordained minister. I see you have a clip of Spurgeon in your signature - I don't have to remind you of the wealth of material available just from that one great man.

---------- Post added at 09:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:25 AM ----------




Kevin said:


> Almost every presbyterian bco (book of church order) allows for several classes of lay preachers. Students, elders, gifted teachers, or in my favorite phrase (from the ARP FOG) "...some other man".


 
I am interested in reading where in the PCA BCO it allows "for several classes of lay preachers" and more importantly, under what circumstances? I have looked and cannot find where this is allowed under any but the most dire circumstances - which I did not get the sense of in Matthew's query. I would greatly appreciate your help here.
Of course, the question was asked of Pastors and I am not. I don't mean to sound uppity.
Kris


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## C. M. Sheffield (Feb 12, 2010)

Dewi Sant said:


> Dear Matthew,
> I would say no, except that you said "ever". Otherwise, no. If a man has been called to preach, evidence of that calling will be seen (he is attending or has graduated from seminary, knows Greek & hebrew, etc.). The best approach, in the absence of an ordained Minister, is to have someone who is apt to teach, well spoken, well read and accepted by the congregation, read from scripture. If a Lord's Day sermon is in order, have them read from the pulpit the sermon of an ordained minister. I see you have a clip of Spurgeon in your signature - I don't have to remind you of the wealth of material available just from that one great man.



And I shouldn't have to remind you that Spurgeon would fail to meet your stringent and extra-biblical requirements. Spurgeon never attended seminary and was never ordained.


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## Wanderer (Feb 12, 2010)

It would be good if those quoting the BCO could give scriptural evidence backing up those positions. The PCA BCO is just our constitution and is a contract between the members on how we agree to organized and run our churches. It is not God prescribed will. Personally, I see no requirement from scripture where someone needs to be ordained in order to preach before a congregation. I think I do a lot of preaching myself, though not before a congregation. And I do not feel the requirement to be ordained to do so. Ordination has to do in the PCA with an examination of the man's credential, and the taking of vows. It is simply the Presbytery giving their stamp of approval of the preacher as of being sound in doctrine, and his promises to hold to the confessions and teachings of the church. Which from my experience is meaning less and less each day, since Presbyteries tend not to hold these men accountable to their promises, and lately the SJC has had to step in a number times in the past few years in order to discipline Presbyteries for not holding the pastors under their charge accountable to their vows. One must ask, if the SJC has to step continuously into a situation where wrong doctrine is being taught because a Presbytery refuses to discipline how many more PCA pastors are teaching contrary to what they promised in their vows in those Presbyteries. Look what it took for the Louisiana Presbytery on the issue of Federal Vision being taught amongst their churches under their oversight? 

So I think Reformed Churches need to be examining their Pastors more so that wrong doctrine is not taught. But if they choose not to do this, then the ordination thing means nothing, and they might just might to think about doing away with the requirement all together. From where I am in Maryland, PCA church's are starting to look more like Non Dom Community Churches. In fact I know one PCA church that says it is a Community Church, which I believe is a bit deceptive, since Community Church's in my area almost always equates to Non Denominational.


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## Kevin (Feb 12, 2010)

Sure, Kris.

BCO 53-6 establishes the right of the session to determine who may preach in their church.

In practice there is wide variety of practice, that takes into account the local circumstances. A region that has no seminary for 1000+ miles around probably wouldn't even consider the possiblity that pulpit supply would be men that knew greek & hebrew as you posited above.

BCO 22-5 sets the limits for the particular status of "Stated Supply". These are to be "students", "Licentiates", or "RE's". 

Stated supply is a formal ongoing status, that is different from the "occasional supply" that the OP was asking about. However, I cite it since it demonstrates that non-ordained, non-seminary educated (the RE's in most cases) may be long-term, on-going "pastors". If this is so, then how much more may these same men be "occasional supply"?

BCO 4-5 establishes that in the absence of a pastor the session should still gather the congregation on Sunday for the "presenting" & "expounding" of the scriptures. And the "Exhorting OR the reading" of a sermon.

NB that the presenting, expounding & exhorting are all a duty enjoined on a session IN THE ABSENCE of a pastor. They may also elect to read a sermon, but this is not the first or even the primary option given.

The fact that lay preaching (that is, preaching by a non-TE) is a universal practice in every presbytry of the PCA (has anyone heard of an exception?), and that it is practiced in every presbyterian denomination, and that it has been practiced since the earliest days of the C of S, should be sufficient to establish it as an acceptable practice in Presbyterian churches. 

Now many churches that come from the Dutch tradition DO NOT allow it. They insist rather on the practice of "reading". I think that this is the source of the confusion.

peace,


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## Dewi Sant (Feb 12, 2010)

"And I shouldn't have to remind you that Spurgeon would fail to meet your stringent and extra-biblical requirements. Spurgeon never attended seminary and was never ordained."

On the contrary Rev. Sheffield, you did - I didn't know that and I thank you for telling me.


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## KMK (Feb 12, 2010)

Wanderer said:


> It would be good if those quoting the BCO could give scriptural evidence backing up those positions. The PCA BCO is just our constitution and is a contract between the members on how we agree to organized and run our churches. It is not God prescribed will.


 
I am not Presbyterian, but I would assume that all who sign off on the BCO agree that the BCO reflects God's prescribed will or they wouldn't sign off on it in the first place.


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## Wanderer (Feb 12, 2010)

Kevin said:


> Sure, Kris.
> 
> BCO 53-6 establishes the right of the session to determine who may preach in their church.
> 
> ...


 
Good post. 

Here's an example of what an untrained preacher can do given the opportunity:

*How C. S. Spurgeon Found Christ*


I thought the sun was blotted out of my sky - that I had so sinned against God that there was no hope for me. I prayed - the Lord knoweth how I prayed—but I never had a glimpse of an answer that I knew of. I searched the Word of God; the promises were more alarming that the threatenings. I read the privileges of the people of God, but with the fullest persuasion that they were not for me. The secret of my distress was this: I did not know the gospel. I was in a Christian land; I had Christian parents; but I did not understand the freeness and simplicity of the Gospel.

I knew it was said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved,” but I did not know what it was to believe in Christ.

I sometimes think I might have been in darkness and despair now had it not been for the goodness of God in sending a snowstorm one Sunday morning, when I was going to a place of worship. When I could go no further I found a little chapel with fifteen people. The minister did not come that morning because of the snow. A poor man, a shoemaker went into the pulpit to preach.

His text was, “Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth.” There was, I thought a glimpse of hope for me in his text. He began thus: “My dear friends, this is a very simple text indeed. It says, ‘Look.’ Now that does not take a deal of effort. It isn’t lifting your foot or your finger; it is just ‘look.’ Well, a man need not go to college to learn to look. Anyone can look; a child can look. But this is what the text says. Then it says, ‘Look unto me.’ Many of you are looking to yourselves. No use looking there. You’ll never find comfort in yourself.

Then the good man followed up his text in this way: “Look unto Me; I am sweating great drops of blood. Look unto Me; I am hanging on the Cross. Look! I am dead and buried. Look unto Me; I rise again. Look unto Me; I ascend; I am sitting at the Father’s right hand. Oh, look to me! Look to Me!”

Then He turned his attention to me. He said, “Young man, you look very miserable. And you will always be miserable - in life and in death in you do not obey my text. But if you obey, now, this moment, you will be saved.”

Then he shouted, “Young man, look to Jesus Christ; look NOW!” He made me start in my seat; but I did look to Jesus Christ.

There and then the cloud rolled away, and that moment I saw the sun. I could have risen that moment and sung with the most enthusiastic of them of the precious blood of Christ, and the simple faith which looks alone to Him. Oh, that somebody had told me that before - trust Christ, and you shall be saved!


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## Dewi Sant (Feb 12, 2010)

"It would be good if those quoting the BCO could give scriptural evidence backing up those positions. The PCA BCO is just our constitution and is a contract between the members on how we agree to organized and run our churches."

Dear Michael,
I suppose that the same could be said for the WCF except it's already been done and doesn't necessary if we're all talking about the same statement or question within those standards. Likewise, if one is enrolled in a PCA church, then it appears to others that one takes the issue of authority as settled and then we go from there as to the meaning. An example would be the mistake I made regarding Spurgeon (which Rev. Sheffield so graciously corrected me) and his creds: I was speaking from the point of view of a Presbyterian and outside of my own purview - hence, a faux pas. However if I made the same recommendation to you I would have used, say, Rev. Samuel Davies as a minister from whom one could read.
You say you do a lot of preaching and for that you are to be commended - if you mean spreading the Gospel. But if you were to tell me that you rise to the pulpit on Sunday morning and deliver a prepared sermon, I would call that a usurpation within the general sense of the Standards and the particular sense of the PCA BCO. I would, however, admire your gumption
I agree with everything you say about the examination & discipline of ministers - I just maintain a narrower definition of "Preaching".
Thanks for your thoughts - well said.
Kris


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## Kevin (Feb 12, 2010)

Kris said "You say you do a lot of preaching and for that you are to be commended - if you mean spreading the Gospel. But if you were to tell me that you rise to the pulpit on Sunday morning and deliver a prepared sermon, I would call that a usurpation within the general sense of the Standards and the particular sense of the PCA BCO."

And you would be incorrect, as I showed above...


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## C. M. Sheffield (Feb 12, 2010)

Dewi Sant said:


> "And I shouldn't have to remind you that Spurgeon would fail to meet your stringent and extra-biblical requirements. Spurgeon never attended seminary and was never ordained."
> 
> On the contrary Rev. Sheffield, you did - I didn't know that and I thank you for telling me.


 
I didn't mean to sound tongue-in-cheek. Forgive if that's how it came across. I intended it to sound more playful but it was lost in the two dimensional nature of written word.


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## KMK (Feb 12, 2010)

Kevin said:


> I disagree with pastor Ken, (and in doing so I agree with every (?) Presbyterian BCO) ordination is NOT required prior to preaching. Ordination IS rquired prior to administering the sacraments but occasional, or lay preaching is almost universal by presbyterians.
> 
> I know some OPC's like to think that they don't allow it, but they do, every time a candidate under care gets up to preach.


 
I don't think we disagree but you are making it sound as if we do. What is your definition of 'lawfully ordained'?


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## Kevin (Feb 12, 2010)

Good question, Ken.

Examined and approved by a presbytery to the office of TE (pastor) & having the "laying on of hands". Thus being set apart to a distinct office.


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## Dewi Sant (Feb 12, 2010)

Kevin said:


> Sure, Kris.
> 
> BCO 53-6 establishes the right of the session to determine who may preach in their church.
> 
> ...


 
Dear Kevin,
Thank you for the references. And to all my brethren, I am by no means suggesting that the Holy Spirit does not act and do as He Wills when it comes to striking down sinners with the flaming sword of truth. I am suggesting that the ordinary means of saving sinners is through the hearing of the Word from the lips of a minister sent to that purpose (Romans 10:14-15).

BCO 53-6: This sounds like a right of refusal and not necessarily allowing the session to invite "some other man" willy-nilly. 53-1 refers to "The minister"; 53-3, "ministers"; 53-4, "ministers"; 53-5, "the minister". The whole chapter 53 is titled, "The Preaching of the Word." Which, I am merely saying that it does not say, presenting or expounding or exhorting, and doesn't say by anyone but ministers.

BCO22-5: I see what you mean here - it is formal. It is also limited (22-6) to one year and is not, as you say, for occasional (dare I say informal?) instances but for the relief of a temporary absence of a formally trained & ordained minister. The whole ch.22 is about "The Pastoral Relations." This does not mean when the minister is elk hunting, but rather when there is no minister.
The argument from the stronger to the weaker doesn't apply here because the BCO is regulative, In my humble opinion, and because there is nothing in it about "occasional supply."

BCO 4-5: An excellent choice, but actually begins, "Churches without teaching elders ought not to forsake the assembling of themselves..." and you are right, the reading of a sermon is mentioned last, but can you see that preaching is not mentioned at all?
And here is my scruple: Most churches are not w/o teaching elders. The TE may be at presbytery or on vacation. There is usually plenty of time to supply the pulpit with a minister of the Word & Sacraments or an acceptable substitute. RE's are not, by ordinary circumstance, called to Preach - they are called to govern. The Original Post asked, "Any precautions?" and I would have to say, of course!

Chapter 53, again, begins thus: (53-1) The preaching of the Word is an ordinance of God for the salvation of men. Serious attention should be paid to the manner in which it is done. The minister should apply himself to it with diligence and prove himself a "worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth' (2 Timothy 2:15). And later, goes on to say: (53-3) Preaching requires much study, meditation, and prayer, and ministers should prepare their sermons with care...

I would say amen and amen. And every man to his calling.

---------- Post added at 12:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:48 PM ----------

Dear Rev. Sheffield,
Please don't apologize, I took it the way you meant it and replied in kind. You're sure right about this 2-D millieu, but w/o the written word where would we be, neh? And w/o the written Word, we'd be lost! Thank God for sending us preachers...
Kris


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## KMK (Feb 12, 2010)

Kevin said:


> Kris said "You say you do a lot of preaching and for that you are to be commended - if you mean spreading the Gospel. But if you were to tell me that you rise to the pulpit on Sunday morning and deliver a prepared sermon, I would call that a usurpation within the general sense of the Standards and the particular sense of the PCA BCO."
> 
> And you would be incorrect, as I showed above...


 


Kevin said:


> Good question, Ken.
> 
> Examined and approved by a presbytery to the office of TE (pastor) & having the "laying on of hands". Thus being set apart to a distinct office.


 
Would you agree that my 12 year old daughter (who has not been examined or approved by any elder, nor publicly set apart for the distinct office of preaching) would be 'usurping the general sense of the standards' if she took the pulpit in a corporate worship service?


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## Dewi Sant (Feb 12, 2010)

Kevin said:


> Kris said "You say you do a lot of preaching and for that you are to be commended - if you mean spreading the Gospel. But if you were to tell me that you rise to the pulpit on Sunday morning and deliver a prepared sermon, I would call that a usurpation within the general sense of the Standards and the particular sense of the PCA BCO."
> 
> And you would be incorrect, as I showed above...



Dear Kevin,
I may be incorrect, but probably not as you have shown above...

I fear we are talking right past each other in this regard. You argued elsewhere from the strong to the weak. I'm not a big fan of that mode (it is often fallacious) but there I was using it w/o thinking (always disastrous). Here's what I meant: in the PCA BCO (FOG 7-3) IT STATES, "No one who holds office in the Church ought to usurp authority therin..."
If someone who holds office ought not to usurp authority, then a layman, more so, should not usurp authority. That's all I was saying. We could all use more laymen witnessing & tracting in this fallen world. But, you seem to be arguing not from the Form of Government in the BCO, but from universally accepted practice. I would argue that men will always fall into the universally accepted practice of men as long as they find (and sinful man will always find) it more convenient or more polite - that's why it becomes universally accepted. 

I ask you: Why would you not want the Standard to be high? Why would you want untrained men in the pulpit? I have heard the insipid & uninspired sermons of well meaning laymen, deacons and yes, even RE's. In my humble opinion, they are empty of content. The reason I believe that is The Bible first, then the Westminster Standards, and finally the Book of Church Order tell me so.
I have never said that there are not instances where it is necessary to provide a Pastor to God's people. What I am saying is that this is very serious stuff and that it should only be done under dire circumstances and strict oversight. 

I see that you are a licentiate - you aspire to the Ministry of God's Word. God bless you and may he send many more like you. We certainly need more ministers and if we had them it would be equally certain that we'd see less "occasional" use of those "other men".

Yours in Christ,
Kris

---------- Post added at 02:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:50 PM ----------




KMK said:


> Kevin said:
> 
> 
> > Kris said "You say you do a lot of preaching and for that you are to be commended - if you mean spreading the Gospel. But if you were to tell me that you rise to the pulpit on Sunday morning and deliver a prepared sermon, I would call that a usurpation within the general sense of the Standards and the particular sense of the PCA BCO."
> ...



Dear Pastor Ken,

Today my most helpful insights and irenic responses have been from the Baptist Pastors. I'm sorry to have drug out the pots and pans and utensils on this one - particularly since it was Pastor Matthew that originally posted the thread. 

Thanks for putting up with this amateur attempt at sharpening my steel. It's my first real discussion on the Puritan Board and I hope I don't get the boot for being less than irenic myself.

Yours in Christ,
Kris


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## Kevin (Feb 12, 2010)

KMK said:


> Kevin said:
> 
> 
> > Kris said "You say you do a lot of preaching and for that you are to be commended - if you mean spreading the Gospel. But if you were to tell me that you rise to the pulpit on Sunday morning and deliver a prepared sermon, I would call that a usurpation within the general sense of the Standards and the particular sense of the PCA BCO."
> ...


 
Yes!


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## raekwon (Feb 12, 2010)

On the question on "usurping authority": if a man has been asked by the elder(s) if his church to preach, has not that authority been lawfully delegated to him?


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## Dewi Sant (Feb 12, 2010)

raekwon said:


> On the question on "usurping authority": if a man has been asked by the elder(s) if his church to preach, has not that authority been lawfully delegated to him?



Dear Elder Rae,

So many things depend (I have found) on established church polity. For instance, in the case of the Baptists subscribing to the LBCF, elder Bob (post#4) pointed to this:

According to the LBC:
26:11. Although it be incumbent on the bishops or pastors of the churches, to be instant in preaching the word, by way of office, yet the work of preaching the word is not so peculiarly confined to them but that others also gifted and fitted by the Holy Spirit for it, and approved and called by the church, may and ought to perform it. 

Whereas the PCA Book of Church Order spends a lot of time on the office and a little time on the exceptions. It appears to me that Presbyterians tend to want to construct a fence around the handling of the Word with a few small gates to protect God's people from a paucity of ministers. That is not to say, and I have argued against, that we should all crowd around these exceptional gates and call them permission gates - as if anything goes occasionally because something has gone exceptionally.

The question is how are God's people best served (minister = servant) and what are the reasons for asking an untrained man to preach? I would also argue, as an aside because I don't think usurpation of authority is the salient point, that since the examination/specification of ministers is the prerogative of the presbytery the elders of a particular church might be overreaching their authority by assigning men to preach who are not examined by presbytery. In other words, are they themselves usurping the authority of presbytery and guilty of it - and not the man asked to preach? 

I see you are an Elder at Grace Central. [Awful young looking if you ask me (Hah! Just kidding, I recognized your face from the thread on how young is an elder. If I joined your church you would be my Elder - and happily so - even though I am the elder of us two)]. Anyway the question we must ask ourselves as presbyterians is why do we want to raise an untrained man to the pulpit? If we can't answer that, and answer it well, I don't believe we should do it. The LBCF didn't view this as a great problem and in fact wrote it otherwise. As Rev. Sheffield pointed out [post#7] the Baptists benefited greatly by allowing Spurgeon to preach (or maybe being swept aside by God's Holy Spirit) but The Westminster Divines saw it differently and wrote it so. I once saw a parallel confession with the LBCF & WCF side by side and they are strikingly similar - even word for word in much of it. 

I highly recommend Rev. Dr. Thomas Smyth's Ecclesiastical Catechism of the Presbyterian Church for discovering the roots of our church polity. Smyth's knowledge of the history and background of the Westminster Divines lends profound insight into what & why they were thinking when they composed the Westminster Standards. One question germaine to this discussion is Q#133: Whom do ruling elders represent in the church? A: As the pastor represents the ministry, so ruling elders represent the members of the church. Another is Q#129: Do ruling elders posses authority equally with the bishops, as rulers of the church? A: Yes, as rulers, though not as teachers.

God bless you Rae, and the leadership & people of Grace Central - it is filled I am sure, with the Holy Spirit. Lead well, brother.

Yours in Christ,
Kris

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raekwon said:


> On the question on "usurping authority": if a man has been asked by the elder(s) if his church to preach, has not that authority been lawfully delegated to him?



Another question before I sleep: If the session believes a man capable & called to the ministry, why not put him under the care of presbytery and help him pay for seminary - that should be crucible enough to prove the man. If he returns to you a Master of Divinity all the better and set him to preaching or plant another church. If not, he can never lose his place in the pew or in your hearts.


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