# Publishing Companies



## BibleCyst (Dec 22, 2010)

Hello, all. First time poster, long time lurker.

I'm working my way through “The King James Only Controversy” by James White, and so far I have benefited tremendously from it. I had some questions and misunderstandings about the various Greek texts we use to translate our Bibles, and this book cleared up almost everything for me. I do, however, have a concern that the book has not addressed yet (looking forward, I'm not sure it will). Publishing companies. Every publishing company has to have their own translation of the Bible. In a way, this is a blessing. Some languages of the world have very few translations, and yet the English-speaking world has been blessed with many translations, most of which are competing to be the most faithful.

This being said, I'm bothered by how these companies profit off of God's word. Zondervan bothers me the most, as it has an explicitly secular parent company (HarperCollins). Below are my specific questions.

1. Is it moral for a publisher to use God's word for profit?
2. Is it moral for us to support secular publishers who use God's word for profit?

Thank you, and may God bless you all.


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## au5t1n (Dec 22, 2010)

These are legitimate concerns. The Church should be responsible for translating Scripture or at least should have oversight over the translation committee. The common practice of organizations publishing their own church-independent translations and basing their translation decisions and philosophy on what is marketable to the masses is not the ideal by any stretch.


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## Skyler (Dec 22, 2010)

Is it moral to do anything for profit?


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## Wayne (Dec 22, 2010)

Minor point: Zondervan did not start out as a subsidiary of HarperCollins. That buyout happened later in the history of the company.
When did they start the work and complete the publication of their edition of the Bible and when did the buyout take place?
All of which doesn't much impact your questions. Just looking to clarify a few points.


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## Whitefield (Dec 22, 2010)

Skyler said:


> Is it moral to do anything for profit?


 
Yes.


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## BibleCyst (Dec 22, 2010)

Wayne said:


> Minor point: Zondervan did not start out as a subsidiary of HarperCollins. That buyout happened later in the history of the company.
> When did they start the work and complete the publication of their edition of the Bible and when did the buyout take place?
> All of which doesn't much impact your questions. Just looking to clarify a few points.


 
Zondervan was founded in 1931. The NIV NT was 1973, and the complete NIV was published in 1978. The buyout happened 10 years later, in 1988. Thank you, Wayne. This was definitely a point that needs clarifying. I grew up reading the NIV, and I still believe (aside from the present-day updates) that the NIV is not a bad translation. They also publish many great books. I'm simply concerned with their profiting off of the scriptures (and especially their secular parent company profiting off of the scriptures).


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## Skyler (Dec 22, 2010)

Whitefield said:


> Skyler said:
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Solely for the sake of profit?


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## Whitefield (Dec 22, 2010)

Skyler said:


> Whitefield said:
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Now you add the word "solely". That could alter the response. A farmer sells a bushel of corn primarily (solely?) for profit, in order to feed his family. A professional sells his services primarily (solely?) for profit, in order to feed his family. Although there may be societal benefits to both, their primary motivation is to receive more in profit than to expend in cost. To say they do it "solely" for profit could mean they just want a bigger pile of money or it could mean their end goal is to make a living and provide for their family.


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## Phil D. (Dec 22, 2010)

Whitefield said:


> it could mean their end goal is to make a living and provide for their family



or stockholders... (which I would argue is also, within reason, a legitimate gain)


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## Skyler (Dec 22, 2010)

Whitefield said:


> Skyler said:
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Excellent, now we're getting somewhere. We can't simply ask "is it moral to [do X] for profit", because there are a range of factors which must be taken into account.

Is it moral for publishers to use God's word for profit in order to keep producing God's word?


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## Whitefield (Dec 22, 2010)

Phil D. said:


> Whitefield said:
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> > it could mean their end goal is to make a living and provide for their family
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True, someone has to risk their money for capital investment.

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Skyler said:


> Whitefield said:
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If there were no profit, I doubt publishers would "keep" producing.


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## au5t1n (Dec 22, 2010)

Skyler said:


> Is it moral for publishers to use God's word for profit in order to keep producing God's word?



How about, Is it moral for publishers to make translation decisions based on profit?

Followed by, Is it possible to translate for profit, outside of church oversight, without doing this?


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## Skyler (Dec 22, 2010)

austinww said:


> Skyler said:
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> > Is it moral for publishers to use God's word for profit in order to keep producing God's word?
> ...



You mean like catering to what the customers want to hear? I don't think so. I think we agree on that, right?



> Followed by, Is it possible to translate for profit, outside of church oversight, without doing this?


 
Why should it be more possible under church oversight than out of it?


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## DMcFadden (Dec 23, 2010)

Unfortunately, the changing economies of Christian publishing have put pressures on all aspects of Christian publishing, including the neighborhood Christian "bookstores," now increasingly absent even from the decent sized cities.

Zondervan, Baker, Revell, Word, and the others were all ministries envisioned as outreaches for the cause of Christ. Piety and earnest sacrifice were combined by those who were willing to invest long hours, loads of sweat equity, and their own earthly treasures in order to use publishing as an avenue of serving the Church of Christ.

Today, many of these same enterprises are no longer financially viable, at least not using the outdated and faulty business models under which many of them operated. Getting taken over by larger companies able to implement cost controls and economies of scale was the only hope of survival.

I am no fan of Newscorp owned Zondervan, particularly its openness to emergent writers and the like. It is interesting that the latest critical Greek text, sponsored by Logos and the SBL, has one of the most generous and non-proprietary set of restrictions ever. I have already downloaded it for FREE on my Logos 3, Logos 4, theWord, e-Sword, WordSearch, and (without the apparatus until it gets released) Kindle. They are committed to disseminating God's Word without profit of any kind.

However, paper costs, and so does printing, transportation, shelf space, salespersons, and the like. I do not know how we expect to print Bibles without cost. Yes, it would be nice if churches and various ministries purchased them for free distribution (or at cost). But, until then . . .


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## VictorBravo (Dec 23, 2010)

I will add, Dennis, that capitalism and marketing have resulted in a superabundance of Bibles. Anybody, literally, can buy one. At the local Dollar Store I'll often see several different versions for a buck, including, of course, the KJV, occasionally the NIV and often the NKJV. 

The main concern I have about all the commercial activity is the hype associated with each version. Nevertheless, our home's bookshelves have many versions on them, and I look them over and compare them all the time. Strange thing, though, is that my old KJV bible is my main bible. I've rebound it myself with bookbinding glue and heavy card stock because I didn't want to spend money on it. I know, pound foolish, but I love that old worn out thing.


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## Jack K (Dec 23, 2010)

It could be worse. For the major, recent translations, translation teams still demand a level of Christian integrity. They're pretty much made up of believers, who operate under statements affirming the authority of God's Word. Different translation philosophies seem at times designed to fill a niche. But I suspect that if churches were doing this work, we'd have the same issues and the same niches getting filled, only with even more wide-ranging difference in philosophy. So all in all, the publisher-driven translation business (though it feels not right) has not served us too badly, and there've been some notable high points.

If you want to know where marketing concerns truly influence the Bible business, it's not so much what happens in translation. It's what the publishers add after the fact. That's where the heavy, no-shame marketing takes place. Publishers add devotional material, lists of tips, and all manner of other, competing content aimed at businessmen, students, single southerners who love dogs... you name it. Everyone gets his own Bible with content just for him. In a way it seems to show respect for the Bible text by not messing with the text itself. But actually it is a very savvy marketing scheme using the basic marketing principle that you should adjust your product to fit your customer. In a world where people like to create their own brand of Christianity in the first place, it's working.


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## jawyman (Dec 23, 2010)

While this may not be deemed as relevant to the thread, as a former employee of Zondervan, all I can say is they are entirely about the profit. Also, please do not mistake a publisher who markets to Christians as necessarily a Christian publisher. My experiences at Zondervan lead me to the conclusion they said they were Christian in order to appeal to the average Christian consumer. Zondervan is not a Christian publisher, but a publisher who publishes Christian literature. Remember they do publish Bell, Warren, et al. If someone were looking for a solid, readable translation of the Scriptures I would recommend the ESV or the NKJV. The new NIV is really nothing more than the TNIV repackaged.


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## Puritan Scot (Dec 24, 2010)

Richard, you mentioned in your opening post that you benefited tremendously from James White's book.

If you get an opportunity I would recommend that you read Edward F. Hills book *The King James Version Defended*. This is a very scholarly and balanced book on this topic.

It is referred to very briefly in a current thread.


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## EverReforming (Dec 24, 2010)

Whitefield said:


> Skyler said:
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Earning a profit is not necessarily a zero-sum transaction where by making a profit, the other person is losing out. If you have two people conducting a transaction of their own free will, neither party will take part in the transaction if they don't feel they are gaining from it. The buyer will not buy if they don't feel that what they are getting is worth as much or more than the cost they are paying. The seller won't sell if they feel the selling price is less than their cost. So, generally, in any transaction between willing participants in a free-market economy, both parties involved will profit.

I see nothing wrong with earning a profit, rather what is of concern is the way in which one goes about earning a profit.

Scripture speaks positively of earning a profit as well:



> 11As they heard these things, he proceeded to tell a parable, because he was near to Jerusalem, and because(L) they supposed that the kingdom of God was to appear immediately. 12He said therefore, (M) "A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return. 13Calling(N) ten of his servants,[a] he gave them ten minas,* and said to them, 'Engage in business(O) until I come.' 14But(P) his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, 'We do not want this man to reign over us.' 15When he returned, having received the kingdom, he ordered these servants to whom he had given the money to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained by doing business. 16The first came before him, saying, 'Lord, your mina has made ten minas more.' 17And he said to him, 'Well done, good servant![c] Because you have been(Q) faithful in a very little,(R) you shall have authority over ten cities.' 18And the second came, saying, 'Lord, your mina has made five minas.' 19And he said to him, 'And you are to be over five cities.' 20Then another came, saying, 'Lord, here is your mina, which I kept laid away in(S) a handkerchief; 21for I was afraid of you, because you are(T) a severe man. You take(U) what you did not deposit, and reap what you did not sow.' 22He said to him,(V) 'I will condemn you with your own words,(W) you wicked servant! You knew that I was(X) a severe man, taking what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow? 23Why then did you not put my money in the bank, and at my coming I might have collected it with interest?' 24And he said to those who stood by, 'Take the mina from him, and give it to the one who has the ten minas.' 25And they said to him, 'Lord, he has ten minas!' 26'I tell you that(Y) to everyone who has, more will be given, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 27But(Z) as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and(AA) slaughter them before me.'" Luke 19:11-27*


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## au5t1n (Dec 24, 2010)

The issue here is not whether a company needs money to produce the paper and ink, but whether the Church should rely on external organizations to translate the Bible in order to market their particular translation philosophy and then sell it to the average churchgoer, all without the leadership of the Church.


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## EverReforming (Dec 24, 2010)

austinww said:


> The issue here is not whether a company needs money to produce the paper and ink, but whether the Church should rely on external organizations to translate the Bible in order to market their particular translation philosophy and then sell it to the average churchgoer, all without the leadership of the Church.


 
Of that, I'm of the opinion that the Church needs to be in charge of the translation, with the publisher merely a resource for physically printing and distributing the Bibles. I have no problems with the use of a publishing company, as they have an expertise in the printing and distribution process. However, I think the Church should be the ones "driving the bus" so to speak, with the publisher being a passenger.


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## Phil D. (Dec 24, 2010)

EverReforming said:


> I see nothing wrong with earning a profit, rather what is of concern is the way in which one goes about earning a profit.



As they say, the problem with capitalism is that man ends up taking advantage of his fellow man, while with socialism its the other way around...


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## au5t1n (Dec 24, 2010)

EverReforming said:


> austinww said:
> 
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> > The issue here is not whether a company needs money to produce the paper and ink, but whether the Church should rely on external organizations to translate the Bible in order to market their particular translation philosophy and then sell it to the average churchgoer, all without the leadership of the Church.
> ...


 
That sounds reasonable to me.


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## Jack K (Dec 24, 2010)

EverReforming said:


> austinww said:
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> > The issue here is not whether a company needs money to produce the paper and ink, but whether the Church should rely on external organizations to translate the Bible in order to market their particular translation philosophy and then sell it to the average churchgoer, all without the leadership of the Church.
> ...


 
This sounds very good and reasonable. I like this. It's the way it should be.

But... and not to defend the current situation... the idea that the church should be in charge of translating still leaves us with some nasty questions. Which church? Should each denomination make its own translation? Would putting "the church" in charge actually give us better translations? Or might we end up with many more really, really bad ones than we have now? Or if we're looking for a single "church" translation, would "the church" actually be able to work together on this without getting hopelessly mired in sectarianism?

It does seem to me that some trans-denominational entity, highly respected by all the churches and above the fray, would have to take charge. The publishing houses currently serve as that entity. This doesn't really feel right. But we need to offer workable solutions at the same time we knock the status quo.


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## au5t1n (Dec 24, 2010)

I was thinking the whole church could just join together and form one big confessional Presbyterian denomination, and then once there's only one church, let the translating commence! 

In the meantime, denominations have commissioned translations before. The SBC did something similar with the HCSB.


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## BibleCyst (Dec 26, 2010)

Thank you to everybody who chimed in!

I have a more specific question now. Is it right for a secular authority to benefit financially from the Word of God? A specific example is Crossway paying the World Council of Churches for access to the RSV text. As many of you know, the WCC does many things which explicitly spit in the face of Christianity. Another specific example is Tom Daschle's involvement with Thomas Nelson. My last question in light of these things - is it right for us, as Christians, to support these people financially?


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## Galatians220 (Dec 26, 2010)

Not to derail Richard's question above, but is it moral to "tweak" God's word so as to make it sufficiently different from any other "version" of the same that has been published to date with the end of that being to gain a copyright on the "new work" and thus make tons of money on it? (_Cf._ Proverbs 30:6.) We had a great and magnificent Bible that admittedly has been slightly revised a few times but not so as to lose its meaning. That's the King James, built on the Geneva, built on Matthews, on Tyndale's version, on the Vulgate, on older manuscripts. Along came Westcott and Hort (two very credentialed believers - ) - and _voila!_ We had the Revised Version in 1881 and the ASV in 1901. It is upon those versions that the Amplified, the NASB, the NIV, the NKJV and the ESV - and other new versions - have been built. Please compare just a couple of verses in the KJV and the Geneva with the newer, more popular versions: Genesis 15:1 and 2 Corinthians 2:17... I've compared more than 1,700 verses over the past 13 years... 

In my observation, there are no versions of which it can be more faithfully said that "Scripture interprets Scripture" than the KJV and the Geneva. 

When I was being educated in pre-Vatican II Catholicism, I was forbidden to read the King James Bible by the nuns, priests and my mother. I could, however, read the ASV, as it was considered not far from the Douay version. Indeed it wasn't, and neither are the newer and more popular versions far from the (Catholic) New American Bible and other Catholic versions in their renderings of certain verses, except for the obvious absence of the Apocrypha. As an ex-Catholic reading the ESV, for example, online, my heart breaks over the capitulation to the forces of profit and the "spirit of ecumenism" that Protestants have undergone, even stepping up the pace over the past dozen or so years. Very sad.

Please carry on... (I'm *not* a scholar and make no pretenses about that, so...)

Margaret


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## Marrow Man (Dec 26, 2010)

DMcFadden said:


> It is interesting that the latest critical Greek text, sponsored by Logos and the SBL, has one of the most generous and non-proprietary set of restrictions ever. I have already downloaded it for FREE on my Logos 3, Logos 4, theWord, e-Sword, WordSearch, and (without the apparatus until it gets released) Kindle. They are committed to disseminating God's Word without profit of any kind.



Dennis, what is the name of the free Greek text you mention? Is it available it Kindle format for i-Devices?


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## DMcFadden (Dec 26, 2010)

The newly unveiled SBL critical text.

It compares WH, Tregeles, NIV (as a practical equivalent to UBS), and RP (for the Byzantine).

It is available with apparatus for free in Logos 4, Logos 3, theWord, e-Sword, Sword, PDF, and txt.
It is available, sans apparatus, for Kindle in an unofficial version. The scholar behind it wrote me that the Kindle version is "forthcoming."

SBL Greek New Testament - Download official site.
The Greek New Testament: SBL Edition - Logos Bible Software - Logos site
SBL Greek New Testament | Michael W. Holmes - Michael Homes (Bethel guy who did it)
SBLGNT for Kindle | kata Drew - SBL GNT for Kindle


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