# Total Nonsense - that's all it is....



## C. Matthew McMahon (Feb 18, 2004)

Hip New Churches Pray to a Different Drummer 

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February 18, 2004
Hip New Churches Pray to a Different Drummer
By JOHN LELAND

INNEAPOLIS - It was &quot;alt.worship&quot; night at Bluer on a recent Saturday, and as a crowd of about 50 people, mostly in their 20's and 30's, milled around an open loft space filled with couches and candles, John Musick, the pastor, sat behind a drum set, accompanied by three other members of the musical &quot;ministry team.&quot; Light fixtures dangled from exposed pipes; slides and videos of old stone crosses or statues flashed on two screens.

Mr. Musick, 37, wore a faded T-shirt and blue jeans and had mussed hair and a soul patch beneath his lower lip. Instead of his weekly sermon, he directed the congregants to make their way among three makeshift altars, each with a stack of cards carrying a prayer and a list of topics to think about. 

&quot;You're going to be put in a position where you have to think about your relationship with God,&quot; Mr. Musick said. 

Bluer, which began four years ago as a young adult ministry at a more conventional church, is one of several hundred small evangelical congregations that have formed around the country in recent years to pursue an alternative idea of how to do church.

Called &quot;emerging&quot; or &quot;postmodern&quot; churches, they are diverse in theology and method, linked loosely by Internet sites, Web logs, conferences and a growing stack of hip-looking paperbacks. Some religious historians believe the churches represent the next wave of evangelical worship, after the boom in megachurches in the 1980's and 1990's.

The label &quot;emerging church&quot; refers to the emergence of a generation with little or no formal attachment to church. The congregations vary in denomination, but most are from the evangelical side of Protestantism and some are sponsored by traditional churches. Brian McLaren, 48, pastor at Cedar Ridge Community Church in Spencerville, Md., and one of the architects of the fledgling movement, compared the churches to foreign missions, using the local language and culture, only directed at the vast unchurched population of young America.

The ministries are diverse in their practices. At Ecclesia in Houston and Vintage Faith Church in Santa Cruz, Calif., artists in the congregation paint during services, in part to bring mystical or nonrational elements to worship, said Chris Seay, 32, pastor of the four-year-old Ecclesia, which draws 400 to 500 people on most Sundays. 

At Spirit Garage in Minneapolis, in a small theater, congregants can pick up earplugs at the door in case the Spirit Garage Band is too loud. At Solomon's Porch across town, a crowd of about 300 takes weekly communion &quot;house party&quot;-style, chatting with plastic cups of wine and pieces of pastry before one announces, &quot;Take and eat the body of Christ.&quot;

In Denver, a gathering called Scum of the Earth, started by a Christian rock band and named after a passage in I Corinthians, features pizza and a D.J. 

Many emerging churches, including Bluer, have revived medieval liturgies or practices, including prayer labyrinths and lectio divina, or sacred reading, a process of intense meditation and prayer over a short biblical passage. Some borrow Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox rituals that pre-date the Enlightenment.

&quot;The Orthodox practices represent stability,&quot; Mr. Musick said. &quot;Marriage you can't rely upon. With the dot-com failures, having mad computer skills doesn't guarantee you a good job. That stability isn't there.&quot; 

Since the churches are diverse, their numbers are elusive, but the Web site www.ginkworld.net, lists more than 300 emerging or postmodern churches. 

Like discussion groups on the Internet, the churches are nonhierarchal and open to multiple points of view, which has drawn criticism from some leaders of established churches who say the emerging churches undercut absolute truths for the vagaries of multiple interpretations. Other leaders have embraced emerging churches as a way to reach young people.

Robert E. Webber, a professor of ministry at Northern Baptist Theological Seminary in Lombard, Ill., and author of &quot;The Younger Evangelicals: Facing the Challenges of the New World,&quot; likened the emerging churches to the growth of fundamentalism in the middle of the last century, which took root in small community churches.

&quot;The same thing is happening now,&quot; Mr. Webber said. &quot;Lots of people are starting neighborhood groups or house churches. The emerging church is being birthed underground. Give it a few years, and it's going to explode.&quot; 

The churches are a reaction to the highly polished services at megachurches, said Dan Kimball, 42, pastor at Vintage Faith Church and author of &quot;Emerging Church: Vintage Christianity for New Generations.&quot; 

Mr. Kimball, a former drummer in a punk rockabilly band, ran a youth group for a megachurch in the 1990's when he noticed that the church's services were out of touch with his charges' popular culture. Like punk rock fans, he said, many young people wanted not an easier involvement with faith but a more interactive, demanding one.

Expanding his ministry, Mr. Kimball brought in candles and crosses from garage sales, and began reading long passages from the Bible, inviting people to talk back to him or discuss what the stories meant to them as a group. In contrast to the bright and cheerful big churches, he said, &quot;younger people want it like a dusty cathedral.&quot;

&quot;They want a sense of mystery and transcendence,&quot; he said. &quot;Anything that sniffs of performance turns them off.&quot;

Though the churches are often small, most break down into even smaller groups throughout the week and set a premium on eating together. Larry Eskridge, associate director of the Institute for Study of American Evangelicals at Wheaton College in Illinois, said this interest in small groups, in which everyone knows each other, marked a generational shift from baby boomers, who found strength in numbers, whether at Woodstock or in megachurches.

On a Tuesday morning in Minneapolis, eight members of Solomon's Porch gathered at a Peruvian cafe for their weekly men's breakfast. They were in their 20's to mid-40's, and most were musicians or artists; only one wore a tie. Though the group did not discuss religious matters, such meetings are just as important to the church as Sunday services, said Doug Pagitt, 37, the pastor, who started the church four years ago.

&quot;It's about us finding our way as a community,&quot; Mr. Pagitt said. 

Laura Bates, 25, a member of the church, said it was the sense of community that drew her to Solomon's Porch.

&quot;I'm not saying the Bible is watered down here,&quot; Ms. Bates said. &quot;It's the opposite. We're figuring it out together.&quot;

Many emerging churches preach the same message as their sponsoring churches, but use different methods. In Basking Ridge, N.J., Peter L. Pendell, 59, preaches a conservative Baptist sermon on Sunday mornings, and Tim Lucas, 32, who is not ordained, leads a looser gathering called Liquid in the evenings.

&quot;We both preached about baptism recently,&quot; Mr. Pendell said. &quot;Tim used a film clip from `Oh Brother, Where Art Thou?' I'll say, `This is what the Bible says about baptism.' He'll talk about people's lives and why they get baptized, then get around to telling what the Bible says about baptism. I'm speaking to people who know what the Bible says, so I don't need to win them into it as much as he does.&quot; 

Mr. Lucas said that the dialogue gave him leeway to discuss topics like homosexuality and p0rnography in ways that might be divisive in a conventional sermon.

&quot;If anything,&quot; he said, &quot;we talk about sin more because we're more forthcoming about our own lapses.&quot; 

At the same time, Mr. Lucas said, unlike some traditional churches, &quot;we don't pretend there's an invisible hierarchy of sins.&quot;

&quot;As we live in community, someone living a homosexual lifestyle doesn't have any more issues before God than I do as a heterosexual man,&quot; he said.

At an Irish bar in downtown Minneapolis on Wednesday, 10 members of Spirit Garage met for the weekly Theology Pub, a mix of biblical discussion and other spirits. The discussion quickly moved through the history of St. Valentine and the personal life of Martin Luther to the question of how to be a Christian in the world. Most said they were put off by political declarations of faith.

&quot;I always feel like I have to qualify it, like, `I'm not that kind of Christian, I go to a cool church,' &quot; said Lindsey Gice, 26, a graphic designer who had given up church after high school.

The church and small groups provided a different kind of community, Ms. Gice said. 

&quot;I'd go to churches that were way too judgmental or too ambiguous,&quot; she said. &quot;At Spirit Garage, there is no question what we're doing. We're talking about Jesus. We're taking communion. We're just doing it together, as a journey.&quot;



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[Edited on 3-8-2004 by webmaster]


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## SolaScriptura (Feb 18, 2004)

*I won't cast the first stone...*

... but I [i:9a9e0713c8]will [/i:9a9e0713c8] fling the second!
:flaming:


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## Gregg (Feb 18, 2004)

Can puke actually be pure?

What do you say bouncy?

uzzled:

[Edited on 2-19-2004 by Gregg]


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## turmeric (Feb 18, 2004)

We have one of these unfortunate things in our town.


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## dswatts (Feb 19, 2004)

We have one in Madison too that recently started by the local Southern Baptists....it is called 'Spirit Winds' sounds more native american or pagan to me than Christian!

Lord help us!
Dwayne


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## luvroftheWord (Feb 22, 2004)

I was required to read Brian McLaren's book [u:bd41a065d4]A New Kind of Christian[/u:bd41a065d4] for my Church and the World course at RTS. The purpose was to get a feel for how postmoderm has and can potentially impact the church. The class' vote was unanimous. The book is garbage.

But you are interested in learning more about what these churches are about and some of the ideas that are driving them, I suggest that you read this book. Much of it sounds good to the naive or untrained reader, and it is sure to lead many astray. We definitely need to be prepared to combat this wave of liberalism in the church.


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## BrianLanier (Feb 23, 2004)

Most Distressing


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## Me Died Blue (Feb 23, 2004)

We have one of these churches here in Cincinnati as well, called Crossroads Community Church. It's in a former HQ building, and our youth group once took a trip there when we were learning about &quot;other denominations.&quot; (We took trips to that, as well as a Lutheran church, and were originally planning to visit a Messianic Synagogue as well--but no Reformed churches, of course.) Its sanctuary is like movie theater, with the same kind of chairs with cup-holders attached to each. The &quot;stage&quot; contains a tall, 3-way fence just for visual effects.

Just a few days ago, my family and I were watching the news and heard about how many Christians in the city are discovering &quot;a new way of worship,&quot; which turned out to be referring to none other than (you guessed it!) new programs at Crossroads.

When I see the rampant foolishness in things such as this, and how they so successfully abound in today's culture, I cannot see how people who call themselves at least somewhat &quot;Reformed&quot; can say that they see the whole of evangelical Christendom as getting better rather than worse--such as Alister McGrath. Let us continue to pray and push for a recovered passion for biblical standards in teaching and practice!

Chris

[Edited on 2-23-2004 by Me Died Blue]


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## AnonymousRex (Mar 7, 2004)

*Wolves in Sheep's Clothing*

This may sound humorous and cute at first, but when I think about it more I find myself enraged and disgusted. 

When I was first introduced to &quot;evangelicalism&quot; at the age of seventeen, I thought I had found something wonderful but instead had discovered a nefarious spectre that eventually destroyed my life. It was thoroughly Arminian (at least in practice), &quot;contemporary&quot;, and &quot;relaxed.&quot; They taught that beyond the walls of the sanctuary was a hurting world in desperate need of God but unaware of it, and even though God so desperately wanted to save them, they were constantly thwarting Him through their &quot;all-powerful&quot; will. This idea led me to believe that it was never right to stand up to anyone and tell them to &quot;shut up&quot; or &quot;go to hell&quot; because they were really &quot;hurting&quot; inside and &quot;in need of God&quot;. When I was eighteen, God - in his infinite wisdom - introduced me to the worst human being I had ever met, and I became the target of his vicious manipulation. But since I couldn't tell him, in good but poorly informed conscience, to &quot;go play in traffic&quot;, he would always come out winning. I wound up becoming a pliable doormat and blowing the next four years of my life on a useless &quot;Bible College&quot; education, because my church thought it was &quot;all the rage&quot; and I bought in to their concept of &quot;ministry&quot; hook, line and sinker. 

After learning of the Reformed faith, I began to realize the truth of God's word, and the world, as averse as I was to it, became far less intimidating. People like the guy I knew in high school became much smaller because it was no longer He thwarting the will of God, but God thwarting Him of everlasting life by withholding his sovereign grace. Let me tell you something: I am not offended by the statement &quot;God hates fags&quot; and neither should you be. 

Of course, by this time it was too late. After four years of a mediocre scholastic endeavor I am now working in a factory, while all of my friends have moved out of their parents' homes and made something of themselves. It is too late for me. 

This whole &quot;contemporary&quot; phenomenon needs to be taken far more seriously. By all means, let it be the butt of your jokes and continue ridiculing it, for I will laugh with you, but take it seriously enough to realize that these churches are destroying lives, and that those superintending these churches should be publicly damned.

If you are in one of these &quot;evangelical&quot; churches, get out while there's still time. These &quot;churches&quot; are nothing but cults clothed in &quot;orthodox&quot; garb. They'll reduce you to a passive simpleton and destroy your life. GET OUT WHILE YOU STILL HAVE THE CHANCE TO MAKE SOMETHING OF YOURSELF.

AnonRex


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## turmeric (Mar 7, 2004)

In God's Providence your life isn't over yet. Hang in there, you haven't got to the last page!


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## turmeric (Mar 8, 2004)

The &quot;Puke&quot; title had a Luther-esque tone to it!:biggrin:


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## AnonymousRex (Mar 8, 2004)

Joshua,

I will admit that when I was typing this post I was a bit upset, but that still doesn't detract from the truth of what I said. Modern evangelicalism turns well-meaning Christians into pliable, passive, anti-intellectual sociopaths who are unable to socially thrive outside of their church environment. And believe me, I've met these people, as I am sure you have down there in the Bible belt.

[quote:9db51b0232]Does God hate even his elect until they are converted? For example, if someone's involved with homosexuality, but, as elect, they are regenerated and brought unto salvation, did God hate them until they were &quot;saved&quot;? A sincere question... [/quote:9db51b0232]

Nothing you have said here is false. However, nothing Phelps says is necessarily false either, if you merely look at the facts outside of the context in which they are delivered.

First of all, the statement &quot;God hates fags&quot; is biblical because the Bible is clear that God hates those He has not drawn to himself.

As for Fred Phelps, he has said many other things that are sobering: for example, he has said that one cannot understand God's love unless he first understands God's hate. I believe this is true. God's hatred of the reprobate and his judgment upon them ought to remind us of how fortunate we are to be His beloved children.

Nevertheless, I do not remain uncritical of Phelps' ministry. I still think he needs to get his act together, but not for the same reasons as everyone else. I don't attack him for &quot;spewing hatred&quot;, otherwise I would be guilty of it as well every time I &quot;lovingly&quot; warned a homosexual of his impending doom; rather, I attack him for never presenting the full gospel while he is &quot;evangelizing&quot;. He focuses on only one side of the coin - God's wrath. Not once have I heard him say &quot;salvation is by grace through faith&quot;, except in a debate with an Arminian. So yes, he's got some repenting to do.

Hope this helps,
AnonRex


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## AnonymousRex (Mar 9, 2004)

Josh,

[quote:3370ed268c]Exactly. 

What I fail to understand is how Phelps' picketting of homosexual funerals, his constant railing of Matthew Shephard's place in eternity, and the way in which he proclaims, furthers the cause of the gospel.[/quote:3370ed268c] 

Again, I would be careful about attacking Phelps for this reason, because depending upon whom you ask, you or I could be guilty of the same thing. In fact, I would argue that we [i:3370ed268c]have[/i:3370ed268c] said the same thing, only in different words. This is how we would phrase it:

&quot;According to Leviticus 18:22, homosexuality is a sinful abomination to God. Psalm 5:5 states that God 'hates all workers of iniquity'. Since homosexuality is a sin, and God hates sinners, God therefore hates homosexuals.&quot; 

Here we have a simple modus ponens construct that eloquently states, &quot;God hates fags&quot; in more amenable language. To deny it is tantamount to disagreeing with the Bible, which is something a good Calvinist would never do. A homosexual, listening to this, would no doubt accuse us of hatemongering and may even respect Phelps more for his honesty and candidness about the subject.

[quote:3370ed268c]There's nothing warm about Phelps...everything's cold, icey, and abrasive. Could this be true of Christ? Paul? Spurgeon? Edwards?[/quote:3370ed268c]

I will admit that Phelps is the kind of guy you'd have to have known for twenty years before you understood him, but if he is abrasive then so were the minor prophets when they were railing against apostatized Israelites. Even Christ himself was &quot;abrasive&quot; when he denounced the Pharisees of his day (note Matthew 23). In fact, if one were to examine the dialogue between Christ and the group of nescient Sadducee intellectuals, he would notice that Christ is angry at them for asking a stupid question and therefore indirectly calls them idiots. Not very heartwarming, to say the least.

As for the Puritans, one need only consult their literature about Arminianism and Catholicism. You'll see plenty of firebrand polemics there.

In saying all of this, my point is that it is not wrong to say &quot;God hates...&quot;, for Scripture states it clearly. Nor is it necessarily wrong to be vitriolic, depending on the circumstance. In my opinion, where Phelps really screws up is by never mentioning grace or calling people to repentance. If you've taken the time to study his placards, not one of them contains any such thing. They merely proclaim such vapid statements as &quot;Al Gore Family Values&quot;, &quot;Dyke Heche&quot; and &quot;Judas Billy&quot; (in reference to Billy Graham). Such a man preaches only to draw attention to himself and not to Christ. For this I am extremely critical of his ministry.

AnonRex


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## JonathonHunt (Mar 9, 2004)

Phil Johnson, on his bookmarks website, says the following about Fred Phelps and his 'church':

Here's a Topeka, Kansas, &quot;Baptist&quot; church that has managed to mangle the gospel so completely that hate, rather than love, is at the heart of the message they proclaim. They picket funerals of AIDS victims, carrying signs saying &quot;No Tears for Queers.&quot; This &quot;church&quot; is actually a small cult comprised mostly of &quot;Pastor&quot; Fred Phelps's own offspring and their children. An eye-opening expose of the Phelps clan (&quot;Addicted to Hate,&quot; by investigative reporter Jon Michael Bell) is on line, Exhibit A in some court documents in a lawsuit involving a Topeka newspaper.
As a Calvinistic Baptist, I'm embarrassed by the Web presence of this &quot;church.&quot; What you'll find here is a radically different gospel from the good news proclaimed in Scripture, so this is an apt candidate for the &quot;really, really bad&quot; category.

*****************

The link to the expose is

http://blank.org/addict/

In case anyone wants to know more.


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## Irishcat922 (Mar 13, 2004)

*nonsense*

We actually visited a Church like you are talking about. We were attracted to it at first because of the worship and they had a really strong men's group. But before long we quickly started to see through the facade. While attending a discovery group which is a class to discover what the church believes and where they are going. We made some very interesting discoveries. The church had gone completely charismatic. I mean anything goes charismatic. We were amazed at some of the things we were seeing and hearing. The last two straws for us was when they had an &quot;apostle&quot; and a guy named Kim Clement come through who was a so called prophet. It had become mayhem in my mind. I sat down and spoke to one of the elders about my Scriptural concerns about the direction the church was going and you would have thought I was talking to him about astro-physics. He refered me to one of the members who liked to read and study and could discuss these issues with me. One of the other Elders while while teaching referred to Smith Wigglesworth as one of the greatest Theologians who ever lived. We finally decided that enough was enough and walked away.


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## robot (Mar 16, 2004)

It sounds like a sort of neo-Romanticism, or a mixture between Romanticism and postmodernism. I've been around things similar to this, and it waters down the Gospel. Often times these groups conform Christ into their own image, instead of conforming themselves into Christ's... they say stuff like &quot;Jesus was a punk/rebel/intellectual/artist/etc.&quot;, so they can mix their own worldly lifestyle with Christianity. Its a dangerous synthesis.


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## Ivan (Jan 14, 2005)

> _Originally posted by dswatts_
> We have one in Madison too that recently started by the local Southern Baptists....it is called 'Spirit Winds' sounds more native american or pagan to me than Christian!
> 
> Lord help us!
> Dwayne



Just found this. I don't know if Dwayne is around...

I'm a Southern Baptists in Wisconsin and I've never heard of Spirit Winds. Not that the local churches and state convention ask my advice!! 

Spirit Winds...sounds strange. I kinda doubt they're Calvinist.


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