# Witnessing to an orthodox Jew?



## blhowes (Apr 19, 2007)

In another thread, I had asked prayer for somebody I'm working with while I'm on a business trip, somebody who considers himself an orthodox Jew. I'd like to ask continued prayer for him. 

I'd like to ask for ideas about how to witness to him, about how to challenge him to think differently about Jesus. We've developed a pretty good working relationship, perhaps a professional friendship, and we've continued to have some pretty open discussions about things of the scriptures.

The man I'm working with invests to some extent in gold because it doesn't tend to go down in value. He said "I don't know what your thoughts are about the Messiah's coming", but he told me that he, and a rabbi that he likes to listen to, think that the price of gold will go up soon before the Messiah's coming. I asked him why the rabbi didn't think Jesus was the Messiah that God had promised to send. His response was much more adament than anything he'd said thus far. He basically said that it was obvious - just look around you. When the Messiah comes, he will bring peace. Look at all the wars, there's no peace yet. I started to respond about the peace within that God gives and the peace with God, etc., but I had the feeling that I'd start having an argumentative tone, so I didn't go far down that road.

Anyway, I've never had the opportunity to witness to an orthodox Jew before, and I'm not sure how (if the opportunity arises) to continue so that I can challenge him to think differently about Jesus. Thoughts?

Thanks,

Bob


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 19, 2007)

Bob -- My pastor recently preached on the doctrine of the Trinity and mentioned that John Gill makes a striking point concerning the teaching of Jewish doctors before the time of Christ that the Messiah was co-eternal with the Father. You can read Gill's comments in his Exposition of the Whole Bible on John 1.1. That may be of some assistance at least on that one point of doctrine which might arise in your conversations.


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## blhowes (Apr 19, 2007)

VirginiaHuguenot said:


> Bob -- My pastor recently preached on the doctrine of the Trinity and mentioned that John Gill makes a striking point concerning the teaching of Jewish doctors before the time of Christ that the Messiah was co-eternal with the Father. You can read Gill's comments in his Exposition of the Whole Bible on John 1.1. That may be of some assistance at least on that one point of doctrine which might arise in your conversations.


Thank-you, Andrew. Just starting verse 3. Very interesting reading. I appreciate your help.
Bob


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## Jane (Apr 21, 2007)

*witnessing to Orthodox Jew*

http://www.veritas.org/3.0_media/talks/214

Veritas Forum has a series of lectures available online. Above is a link to the lecture "Is Jesus the Old Testament Messiah." 

The speaker, Dr. Richard Pratt, said that the mistake Christians make is to claim that Jesus fulfilled every prophecy in the Bible. He said that we, as Christians, claim the probably of anyone else fulfilling these prophecies is some outrageous number like 1 in 10 to the 13th power (or some meaningless number to the average person).

What Dr. Pratt said to emphasize was that Jesus opened the eyes of the blind, healed the lame, and preached the Gospel to the poor. The Jews do not see the coming of the Messiah as a two-step process therefore they expect a conquerer who will bring world peace. That is why they reject Jesus. The speaker's point was that Jesus fulfilled enough prophecies to prove that He was the Messiah and that we can trust Him to do the rest when He comes back.


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## turmeric (Apr 21, 2007)

They stumble over the Cross - as they did in the 1st Century. What does he make of Isaiah 53? Just curious.


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## blhowes (Apr 22, 2007)

Jane said:


> http://www.veritas.org/3.0_media/talks/214
> 
> Veritas Forum has a series of lectures available online. Above is a link to the lecture "Is Jesus the Old Testament Messiah."


Jane,
Thank-you for the link. I've downloaded it and will listen to it tomorrow on the train ride back to work. I've enjoyed listening to other messages by Dr. Pratt, I'm sure this one will be  as well.



Jane said:


> The speaker, Dr. Richard Pratt, said that the mistake Christians make is to claim that Jesus fulfilled every prophecy in the Bible. He said that we, as Christians, claim the probably of anyone else fulfilling these prophecies is some outrageous number like 1 in 10 to the 13th power (or some meaningless number to the average person).
> 
> What Dr. Pratt said to emphasize was that Jesus opened the eyes of the blind, healed the lame, and preached the Gospel to the poor. The Jews do not see the coming of the Messiah as a two-step process therefore they expect a conquerer who will bring world peace. That is why they reject Jesus. The speaker's point was that Jesus fulfilled enough prophecies to prove that He was the Messiah and that we can trust Him to do the rest when He comes back.


I appeciate the advice. The person I've been talking with sent me links to three websites on Friday that talk about the reasons why Jews don't think Jesus was the Messiah. I pdf'ed one of the sites so I could read it on the train ride home. After reading it, I was pondering how to continue my conversations. Your recommendation may be the best approach.

Luk 7:20 When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another? 
Luk 7:22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached. 
Luk 7:23 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.


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## blhowes (Apr 22, 2007)

turmeric said:


> They stumble over the Cross - as they did in the 1st Century. What does he make of Isaiah 53? Just curious.


I haven't spoken with him specifically about that passage, but here's what it says in the website my coworker referred me to.

_Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant."

In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. The Torah is filled with examples of the Jewish nation referred to with a singular pronoun.

Ironically, Isaiah's prophecies of persecution refer in part to the 11th century when Jews were tortured and killed by Crusaders who acted in the name of Jesus._

I assume my coworker would agree with that since he sent me the link, but he hasn't told me so directly.


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## Jane (Apr 22, 2007)

*Response to Orthodox Jew*

I post on Plentyoffish dating site in their Religion Forum. One of the unbelievers is of Jewish descent even though he is a practicing pagan/witch. 

He frequently brings up Isaiah 53, the suffering servant passage. The Jews simply deny that it could be Jesus. He also constantly brings up the fact that Christians don't understand the Tanak--the Hebrew scriptures--because it has been passed down and "interpretted" orally for thousands of years. The interpretation is in the Talmud.

A good example of Jewish "interpretation" is the Noachide law whereby a Gentile living among the Jews is not subject to all of God's law. There are seven provision the Gentile must keep to be accepted. 

I got into a debate with this man on Plentyoffish and pointed out that God absolutely forbids the imposition of two laws for people--one of the stranger and one for the native born. It is the essence of discrimination. I had this guy on the ropes! He was reduced to talking about French cooking and using original recipes. His only point was that it's better to get the information from the people who originally had it. In other words, Christians cannot understand what the Hebrew scriptures mean because they are "mistranslated." Later this same man posted from a Jewish website that used the KJV as their English translation. So much for mistranslation!

After that encounter I had such an appreciation of Jesus' words about the Jews teaching for doctrine the commandments of men because the Jews teach that the Talmud--their oral law--is the equivalent of Holy Scripture. The Talmud, in my opinion, would be the equivalent of our Court decisions--it is man-made law.


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## blhowes (Apr 22, 2007)

Jane said:


> A good example of Jewish "interpretation" is the Noachide law whereby a Gentile living among the Jews is not subject to all of God's law. There are seven provision the Gentile must keep to be accepted.


 Yeah, I came across this in the website I was referred to, objections from extra-biblical sources. 

In our discussions, my coworker and myself seemed to reach some common ground, in principle anyway. We were comparing Judaism with Christianity, where there's quite a spectrum of beliefs about the authority of the scriptures. Societal influences that have affected (infected) Christianity have affected Judaism in the same way. In both camps, there are those who view the scriptures as authoritative and seek to hold fast to the scriptures and there are others on the other side of the spectrum who deny the authority of the scriptures, and try to explain away the miracles, etc. He was glad to hear my position on the scriptures. Perhaps, in light of references in the website to extra-biblical sources, I might ask him to clarify just how authoritative he thinks these sources are, as compared to the authority of the scriptures. I wonder if the orthodox Jewish view would be comparable to the RC view of tradition and the scriptures.

It was interesting. Some of the biblical arguments the site used to explain why they don't believe Jesus is the Messiah are the same arguments dispensationalists might use to argue for a future kingdom. OT prophecies have not been fulfilled literally yet (rebuilding of the temple, cessation of wars), so the Messiah couldn't have come yet.

One stumbling block for Jews that I can see would be tough to work through is reconciling the OT passage that says God is one God with the teaching of the trinity (for which I appreciate Andrew's "heads up" about the topic). My coworker has already asked me if I believe in the trinity, the way the catholic church believes. I assume they believe the same way, but wasn't sure, so I just said "Yes, I believe that God the Father is God. I believe that Jesus is God. I believe that the Holy Spirit is God". He just raised his eyebrows and the conversation didn't continue. I'm kind of glad, because for me the trinity isn't an easy thing to explain/defend (let alone understand). Hopefully, as I study and think about it, I can at least say something that'll help him reconcile the OT passage with the trinity.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Apr 22, 2007)

Bob,

Below is a link to Dr. Michael L. Brown's _Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus_, now in four volumes. 1 General and Historical Objections; 2 Theological Objections; 3 Messianic Prophecy Objections; 4 New Testament Objections.

Brown is a Jew, studied extensively with Rabbis and Jewish scholars, both Biblical and Talmudic. So far I have all but the 4th volume, and they are the best I've seen.

Brown's theology, although Christian, is off (charismatic, Pensacola, etc; lover of Finney), but his Jewish apologetic materials are outstanding, in my view (I am a Jew, and witness to Jews).

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Answering-Jewish-Objections-Jesus-vol/dp/080106063X/ref=pd_sim_b_3/002-1902698-7716844?ie=UTF8&qid=1177266610&sr=1-1"]Amazon.com: Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus, vol. 1: General and Historical Objections (Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus): Books: Michael L. Brown[/ame] 

Down that web page you will see links to the other volumes.

Steve


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## blhowes (Apr 22, 2007)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Bob,
> 
> Below is a link to Dr. Michael L. Brown's _Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus_, now in four volumes. 1 General and Historical Objections; 2 Theological Objections; 3 Messianic Prophecy Objections; 4 New Testament Objections.
> 
> ...


Steve,
Thanks for your help.

You know, I'd really like to help my coworker see Jesus in a new light, but the more I study and think about how to respond, the more I'm reminded of verses like:

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, *they were pricked in their heart*, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath *God* also to the Gentiles *granted repentance unto life*.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 25, 2007)

Another resource that may be of interest is Peter Alllix (French Huguenot / Anglican scholar), _The judgment of the Ancient Jewish Church Against the Unitarians in the Controversy Upon the Holy Trinity and the Divinity of our Blessed Saviour_ (originally published in 1689). It argues that the ancient Jews believed in the divinity of the expected Messiah.

John 5.39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 

John 5.45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 

John 5.46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 

John 5.47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? 

Luke 24.44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Luke 24.45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Luke 24.46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

Luke 24.47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.


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## MMasztal (Apr 25, 2007)

A couple books I've found edifying are: "Why the Jews Rejected Jesus" by David Klinghoffer (an Orthodox Jew) and "Our Father Abraham" by Marvin Wilson (a Christian Theology prof at Gordon-Conwell)

Most of the arguements Klinghoffer makes would be considered weak to us as Reformed Christians as they place Talmus, Mishnah as an equal authority to Scripture. I thought of the RC church as I was reading his book.

A better book is Wilson's which I believe every Christian should read as it gives an excellent history of the early Church vis-a-vis Christians/Jews in the 1st century temple together and when/how the real parting of the ways occurred.


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