# PC(USA) recent statistics



## Calvinbeza (May 16, 2015)

The PC(USA) published that the its active communicant membership is 1,667, 767, loss by 5,54%, congregations fell well under 10,000. 101 were dismissed to other denominations, 30-40 were dissolved, and closed. 2 Presbyteries were dissolved, or merged.

The statistics are about only active members, how many are PC(USA) total members?

the churches affiliated with mostly ECO, EPC, few churches, dissenting groups joined PCA Some Korean churches joined Korean Presbyterian Ch in America. I saw many went to the Evangelical Covenant Church. Why? Evangelical Covenant Church is not Reformed.

If this trend continues the PC(USA) would case to exist.


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## SolaScriptura (May 16, 2015)

The sooner the better!


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## Captain Picard (May 16, 2015)

It's much more likely to become Espiscopalianism without the funny hats than to cease to exist altogether. There was bound to be a spike in losses with the full embrace of homosexuality, but many people just don't care.


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## Calvinbeza (May 16, 2015)

> I saw many went to the Evangelical Covenant Church. Why? Evangelical Covenant Church is not Reformed.


 Why a Presbyterian Church join the Evangelical Covenant Church


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## yeutter (May 16, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> > I saw many went to the Evangelical Covenant Church. Why? Evangelical Covenant Church is not Reformed.
> 
> 
> Why a Presbyterian Church join the Evangelical Covenant Church


I think the reference to the Evangelical Covenant Church is a typo. The Covenant Order of Evangelical Presbyterians is commonly abbreviated ECO.


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## Calvinbeza (May 16, 2015)

> I think the reference to the Evangelical Covenant Church is a typo. The Covenant Order of Evangelical Presbyterians is commonly abbreviated ECO.



No its the Evangelical Covenant Church

See http://www.layman.org/Files/churches leaving chart-l.pdf

For example
Sumner presbyterian Church changed name to Faith Covenant
Sumner, Wash. 365 Olympia 90 percent of the members present voted to leave their PCUSA and
join the Evangelical Covenant Church. Presbytery voted to dismiss
church 4/25/12 and church will pay presbytery $61,765. On 4/29/12
the congregation will be chartered as Faith Covenant Church and
become part of The Evangelical Covenant Church on the 135th anniversary
of the congregation’s founding.
ECC -Evangelical Covenant Church

There are some churches that joind ECC


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## Calvinbeza (May 16, 2015)

One church joined the American Baptist Churches of the Northwest. And the list ends in June, 2012.


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## DMcFadden (May 16, 2015)

ABCNW???

Why would a Presbyterian church join a Baptist body???

The Executive Minister in charge of ABCNW is one of my oldest friends. He is a solidly broad evangelical fellow with a high view of Scripture and commitment to what Lewis used to call "mere Christianity." He strongly opposes homosexual marriage and ordination. But he is NOT Reformed, paedobaptist, or what you would expect of a Presbyterian. Charles is a typical evangelical egalitarian with an appreciation for Barth.


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## Calvinbeza (May 16, 2015)

Mcfadden
If you believe or not 1 church joined the American Baptist Churches of the Northwest. see link below http://www.layman.org/Files/churches... chart-l.pdf


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## Edward (May 16, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> Evangelical Covenant Church is not Reformed.



Neither is the PCUSA.


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## RamistThomist (May 16, 2015)

I see a number of liberal churches merging together in the next fifteen years. There isn't any real difference between any of the liberal churches. They are all united in rejecting key doctrines and embracing the platform of the DNC. Further, most of them have huge foundation money and by merging, they could become (for a small time) a small but powerful economic entity with its headquarters at the Washington National Cathedral.


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## Jack K (May 16, 2015)

While most of us on this board tend to categorize churches in terms of doctrinal heritage, and think in such categories when considering how a church might change denominations, many other people no longer think that way as their default. A pastor may urge his church to move to a denomination where he has a good friend, or one that has a prominent pastor whose writings he's come to admire, or one that a new and influential elder recently came from, etc. Such decisions may be based on people and connections, not doctrinal heritage, especially in a church where doctrine may already be de-emphasized.


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## DMcFadden (May 16, 2015)

Jack, I get that. You are, as always, both irenic and insightful. A conservative ABC church might want to become CBA or BGC to avoid the liberalism of the ABC. A PCUSA church might want to join the PCA, EPC, or ECO.

What I don't get is a Presbyterian becoming a Baptist, unless there are some changes in doctrine. We are not speaking about an uninformed lay person selecting the church with the best youth program or special needs resources in town. We are talking about congregations led by elders and seminary graduates practicing infant baptism on one Sunday and believer's baptism the next one.

Again, theological changes are certainly possible in all of these areas. Hey, I started out as a Baptist! But, denominational affiliation swaps without a change in theology sounds fishy to me.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (May 16, 2015)

I think a likely scenario is a United Church of the ABC, ECUSA, ELCA, PCUSA, and UCC ala what you see in the United Church in Canada or the United Reformed Church in England. 

It may take 15 years in the US but a merger of that type would take care of a lot of administrative and overhead and unite resources.


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## Calvinbeza (May 17, 2015)

So why Evangelical Covenant Church?


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## jwithnell (May 17, 2015)

My observations come from growing up in the mainline churches. The average member, in fact the officers, have no idea about the original confessional standards. If they are moving out of the PCUSA, they are moving _away_from gay marriage not toward a particular doctrinal standard. From what I could see, the ECO simply moved the calendar back to 1967 (when the PCUSA abandoned a single confessional standard). Perhaps some churches chose a denomination simply because it sounded vaguely presbyterian. In others, they may have taken a harder look at what members believed. My family was in one PCUS church that spread a wide umbrella. While the pastor toed the denominational line, many members were closer to baptist or methodist. (This is the group that likely led to a number of us girls eventually hearing or reading the gospel.) Had that church, at that time, jumped to another denomination, baptist or a generalized southern denomination would not be terribly surprising.


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## RamistThomist (May 17, 2015)

jwithnell said:


> My observations come from growing up in the mainline churches. The average member, in fact the officers, have no idea about the original confessional standards. If they are moving out of the PCUSA, they are moving _away_from gay marriage not toward a particular doctrinal standard. From what I could see, the ECO simply moved the calendar back to 1967 (when the PCUSA abandoned a single confessional standard). Perhaps some churches chose a denomination simply because it sounded vaguely presbyterian. In others, they may have taken a harder look at what members believed. My family was in one PCUS church that spread a wide umbrella. While the pastor toed the denominational line, many members were closer to baptist or methodist. (This is the group that likely led to a number of us girls eventually hearing or reading the gospel.) Had that church, at that time, jumped to another denomination, baptist or a generalized southern denomination would not be terribly surprising.



Well said. 25 years ago the Eastern Orthodox in America got excited because they were getting a lot of converts from the Episcopal Church. They soon learned that many of these converts didn't really care about tradition or doctrine. They were just nervous about gay marriage and women priests.


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## PointyHaired Calvinist (May 17, 2015)

Why Evangelical Covenant Church? It is a generally broad evangelical denomination, and I would say many of the good PCUSA churches are more broad evangelical than evangelical-Reformed.


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## Calvinbeza (May 17, 2015)

So many PCUSA churches officially use Westminster Confession, but really never read it. My friend in a PC(USA) church sad that they usa the Belhar Confession and never heard this question? Whats mans chief end? The WCF is covered with dust in the church library in the PC(USA).


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## Verkehrsteilnehmer (May 18, 2015)

Yes, good riddance PCUSA. When I was growing up, the Presbyterian Layman would come in the mail, reporting on how the UP was supporting the Marxist revolution in South Africa, supporting the USSR throughout the world, preaching liberalism, there were still some congregations with Christians, but that is no longer the case. Back then Ronald Reagan was the "threat" to world peace and the Gospel was something the UP establishment strongly opposed. The PCUSA will go the way of the USSR, and its members, unless they repent and leave the godless PCUSA are on the road to hell.
Dave
OPC
PHX


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## DCAF (May 18, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> If this trend continues the PC(USA) would case to exist.



I think there's enough of a market for liberal "Christianity" and enough money in the liberal denominations that they won't completely cease to exist. Sure, they will continue to decline and perhaps merge with each other in the coming decades, but in 50 or 100 years, there will still be a few liberal churches in the downtowns and upper middle class suburbs preaching pablum.


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## Gforce9 (May 18, 2015)

DCAF said:


> Calvinbeza said:
> 
> 
> > If this trend continues the PC(USA) would case to exist.
> ...



I'll see your bet and raise you  If the direction of society is any indicator, the move from orthodoxy to liberalism will only grow. A large factor that will skew those numbers is the move from going to "church" at all to skepticism/atheism.


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## Edward (May 18, 2015)

I had a chance to glance at the summary table for the PCUSA. 

I was a little surprised when I did some simple math, and discovered that there are only 696,190 active male members reported. 58%/42% women to men. Of course, looking back, the split was about the same in 2011. Of course, women make up over 2/3 of the 'diaconate' of the PCUSA.

Other interesting tidbits:

41 presbyteries are no larger than one large church that left the PCUSA last year.


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## Calvinbeza (May 19, 2015)

> 41 presbyteries are no larger than one large church that left the PCUSA last year.



Yes I noted too that the largest congregations left PC(USA), mostly for ECO.


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## Calvinbeza (May 19, 2015)

The growth of the EPC slowed down, down,


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## Edward (May 19, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> The growth of the EPC slowed down, down,



That's because EPC are too conservative for most of the folks left in the PCUSA. Churches leaving now are pretty much single issue. They'll put up with just about anything else. 

EPC had a shorter window of rapid growth than did the PCA. They are now going to have to grow organically. Maybe we can send them a few PCA congregations to help.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (May 19, 2015)

Edward said:


> Calvinbeza said:
> 
> 
> > The growth of the EPC slowed down, down,
> ...



I know I say this each time this is brought up, but I do not think most confessional Reformed people understand how theologically liberal (and ignorant) the conservatives in the PC(USA) are.


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## DMcFadden (May 19, 2015)

Ben, you can rewrite the initials for just about every one of the 7 mainline denominations and the story will be the same. They all have conservative congregations and orthodox people. But, whether from ignorance, denial, wishful thinking, or willful blindness to reality, they stick with their denominational "family" in all of its dysfunctional splendor. For some of the older pastors, I speculate that retirement pension plans enter into the calculus. But, in most cases there is an unwillingness to face up to how bad it really is.

Ten years ago the judicatory (aka district) that my congregation belonged to withdrew from a mainline denomination. This amounted to about 150-200 congregations, some of them with 5k to 8k on a weekend in attendance. We thought that some of the other 34 judicatories might follow suit. They did not. During that same decade, the chair of our educational ministries department (the strucutre had three boards: international missions, national ministries, and educational ministries) on the national board was an openly gay associate pastor in one of the congregations. He was also a member of the planning committee for several of the national conventions, on the executive committee of the denom, on the search committee that selected the paid head of the denomination, etc. His story was documented in the secular press where he volunteered quotes. So this was not a case of "outing" a closeted gay man. The president of the ministers council in one of the state associations for the denomination was an open lesbian who got married to her same sex partner while serving in her post. More than one of the judicatory execs assuaged their disgruntled pastors and laity by assuring them that the claims of gay ministers in the hierarchy were untrue and assured them that nothing of the kind was happening. So who do you blame, blind sheep or blind leaders?

In most of the mainline denominations, the situation is worse than the critics claim. Yet, biblical admonitions of unity are regularly invoked to quiet the critics, dismiss the evidence, and temporize the circumstances.

The solution for survival in this particular denomination involved mortgaging the corporate headquarters (a valuable piece of real estate) to the pension board and the international ministries board of the denomination coupled with a restructure plan that allowed for the balkanization of the denomination. Individual regions became more independent, the central office became less powerful, and regional execs were able to distance themselves from the more controversial aspects of the denomination.

To date, the denomination continues, weakened, but still functioning after a fashion. Conservatives hem and haw when asked why they stay. The blessing of unity, the opportunity to bear witness, the hope of "making a difference," fear of becoming a fundamentalist schismatic, and sheer inertia all drive the impulse to remain. Ben, you are so right.


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## Edward (May 20, 2015)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> how theologically liberal (and ignorant) the conservatives in the PC(USA) are.



That may turn on what is meant by 'conservative'. If conservative is used to mean those who don't like change and disruption, then most remaining PCUSA pew sitters are conservative. They won't move across the sanctuary, much less across town, no matter what comes out of the pulpit. 

If we are talking about theologial conservatives, I'm not sure that I'd concede that there are many, if any, left.


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## Nicholas Perella (May 20, 2015)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> I know I say this each time this is brought up, but I do not think most confessional Reformed people understand how theologically liberal (and ignorant) the conservatives in the PC(USA) are.



I have contact with a PC(USA) member from time to time, and my wife was in one for about 33 years. They are conservative, in their eyes, because they love others. They do all kinds of things for other people. They do not turn anybody away. [They do..., notice Christ is missing from this word-picture]. They trivialize sin to be overcome by positive psychology [just think positive and share the love of Christ with them (again notice Christ's love comes from them - not Christ)]. There is no understanding of repentance because that is not of their loving God that is of the God that judges (notions of Marionism).

The Belhar Confession is on the table in the PCUSA currently. It did not pass this last time, but it is egalitarianism with an emphasis on imposed unity. It is a more centralized confession from what little I understand in which a more imposed unity is demanded. The next wave of churches to leave may revolve around the issue of independency which actually lines up with much of what has happened in some churches already from the look of Dennis' post.


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## kodos (May 20, 2015)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> > Calvinbeza said:
> ...



The way I see it is this - if "gay marriage" was the straw that broke the camel's back for your church to leave the PCUSA, then your local church is either ignorant theologically, or hasn't been paying attention. Either way it is unlikely to be attracted to Confessional Presbyterianism.


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## Nicholas Perella (May 20, 2015)

kodos said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> > Edward said:
> ...



From the circles in which my wife and I walked, they are in the dark. They really do not know what is happening or what is out there. A lot of times they do not even know what denomination they belong to. They just have this vague notion that there are other churches because they see their buildings on the side of the road. The leaders that I came across try to pep talk, get people's spirits up (get them to smile), make them feel proud and entertained, talk about color coding for the walls in the sanctuary to attract people and make them feel good, etc.... Yes that last one was a whole sermon by somebody I call the 'false pastor'. His sermon was all about how colors make you feel a certain way and they need to think about what kind of colors they have inside the building because this would be a way to attract people. If I remember correctly, he went on and on about how he learned this in college, and said restaurants use this tactic, etc.... [There was a time after we had left this false church that I would listen to their sermon's from the web-audio just to hear what they were preaching currently]. If you hear any semblance of the gospel it might take a few weeks and it usually is just 'Christ died for our sins' and after saying that once or twice then back to the regularly scheduled program about what they need to do and how they need to love others, what kind of decorations they could put up, or I remember a sermon that was about the most important thing you will ever need in your life. It will make your life better and is important than anything else... I was at the edge of my seat in the suspense - preparation. Yes - preparation. Then the sermon went on about good preparation and how students prepare for SAT's, etc....

edit: Sometimes I think when churches do leave the PCUSA it may be not so much the voice in the church that is the loudest. It is the public square that might have the loudest voice. In other words, when it is politicized then some people are woken up to an issue and pick a side. The PCUSA is very political. Has been for over a century. There is a good article in the Confessional Presbyterian about the politics of the PCUSA. Currently their general assembly has lobbying groups and such that via for power to legislate their agenda. They look more like the floor of Congress than a church assembly. So watch for the next hot topic in the U.S. nation that might seem related to religion and that might indicate why the next stats fall the way they do.


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## Calvinbeza (May 20, 2015)

> They all have conservative congregations and orthodox people. But, whether from ignorance, denial, wishful thinking, or willful blindness to reality, they stick with their denominational "family" in all of its dysfunctional splendor.



A conservative congregation in the PC(USA) are liberal in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church or the PCA. Only it can be fit in ECO or EPC. Or it would have a conservative pastor who le the congregation back to their forefathers.


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## DMcFadden (May 20, 2015)

Most denominations have a "range" of attitudes that can be plotted on a continuum. In my former group, the head of the denomination believed it to be 10% hard left, 10% hard right, and everyone else in the middle. In my current synod, it is claimed to be 20% missional, 20% confessional, and the rest in the middle. Regardless of the continuum (theological, sociological, or political), bureaucrats tend to think in terms of those to the left (on whatever issue) and those on the right as the ones who will make noise objecting to denominational stands, policies, and priorities.

In 1995 I conducted a social science study as part of a dissertation project in organizational management. It confirmed what other studies have shown: denominational bureaucrats in most mainline groups are more liberal than pastors; pastors are more liberal than lay persons. (An old SBC study once demonstrated that education correlated with theological drift left, the more graduate study a person had, the more likely to take non-conservative theological views). 

Denominations are "run" by bureaucrats with extra advanced degrees and elected posts tend to be over represented with more liberal clergy from smaller congregations (church politics is their most "significant" service in their minds). In such a world, it is not uncommon for the politics and pronouncements of the headquarters (including their publications) to be left of center while significant numbers of congregations (and certainly lay persons) hold to the views formerly associated with the denomination.

I would not be surprised if there were quite a few folks in the PCUSA that could be considered conservative, despite their liberal head office. That is certainly true of groups like the UMC and the ABC. Both groups have a solidly "progressive" rep which is richly deserved by their actions on such issues as homosexuality, feminism, abortion, etc. Yet each of those groups has significant numbers of conservatives who are as conservative as any broad evangelical might be. THE UMC, for example, has a very strong evangelical renewal group opposed to the liberalism in that denomination. And, I know of dispensational, KJVO, and nearly landmarkist congregations in some of the ABC regions.


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## Calvinbeza (May 20, 2015)

Yes you are right. Even in the United Church of Christ, about 20% of their churches considered itself "conservative"


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## Calvinbeza (May 20, 2015)

The UCC is the most liberal denomination in the United States, theologically similar than the PC(USA). 

In 2020 Episcopal Church USA + PC(USA) + UCC = Protestant Church USA (a joint eumenical denomination in 2020)


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## DCAF (May 21, 2015)

kodos said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> > Edward said:
> ...



I know of a United Church of Canada congregation that accepted a minister who denied the resurrection, but still refuses to call a homosexual. I mean guys, how do you see the latter as a problem but not the former?


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## Calvinbeza (May 21, 2015)

Which congregation is this?
I don't know much about the United Church in Canada.


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## DCAF (May 21, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> I don't know much about the United Church in Canada.



The United Church in Canada is ultra-left. e.g. Their moderator denied the resurrections over 20 years ago, and they were ordaining homosexuals earlier than that.

Despite that they still have a few conservatives kicking around in their pews.


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## Calvinbeza (May 21, 2015)

I saw the United Church in Canada is a result of a merger of the Congregational Church, the Methodist Church and the 2/3 of the Presbyterian Church. The remaining Presbyterian Church of Canada is ordaining homosexuals too? Similar to the PCUSA?


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## Calvinbeza (May 21, 2015)

The Presbyterian Church of Canada had 900,000 members in 1925, when the majority formed United Church of Canada, in 2014 it had 200,000 members. Just like the PC(USA)


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## Captain Picard (May 22, 2015)

DCAF said:


> Calvinbeza said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know much about the United Church in Canada.
> ...



I simply do not understand the motivations there. For those not aware, in most places, Roman Catholicism is now three religions more or less. 1) a tiny faction of people who believe all or most of Vatican II was a mistake at best. Latin masses, no one who is not explicitly catholic could ever go to heaven, Trent is the word of god, etc. 2) Neoconservatives, probably a majority of the organization today. These guys will simply affirm whatever the last thing the current pope said, either directly or by turning some liberal mush into something RC orthodox-sounding by mental gymnastics. These are people who believe much of what RC used to teach historically, but would rather have a worldview of self-contradictory nonsense then believe the Vatican could ever be defective in any sense. 3) 'Liberal catholics', in other words secular humanist agnostics with a fetish for old hippies in funny hats.

The absolutely maddening thing to me when I was RC was the ubiquitous presence of high volumes of the neocons in parishes run by Lib-Cath 'priests'. Usually the "masses" would consist of 80's camp-style cultural entertainment fests run by a mincing and obvious aging homosexual giving a brief "sermon" on "the gospel of diversity" and then pantomiming transubstantiation among an espiscopalian-style "celebration" featuring much hand holding and songs written in the sixties to "celebrate oneness" (usually with half the verses in spanish for the twenty-plus illegal immigrants the parish was deliberately harboring). 

I avoided such places like the plague, but at least once a week I found my self asking a neocon in utter anguish "what do you GET out of that?" 

Praise God for the wealth of the Spirit in the Gospel and in the Reformed tradition of worship.


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## Calvinbeza (May 22, 2015)

Nainline Protestantism is dying


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## DCAF (May 22, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> I saw the United Church in Canada is a result of a merger of the Congregational Church, the Methodist Church and the 2/3 of the Presbyterian Church. The remaining Presbyterian Church of Canada is ordaining homosexuals too? Similar to the PCUSA?



I believe the PCC ordains celibate homosexuals, but not practicing ones.


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## Calvinbeza (May 22, 2015)

Even some churches in the "Great White North" need asbestos suits.


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## Calvinbeza (May 23, 2015)

Has the PCA church planting efforts in Canada?


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## DMcFadden (May 23, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> Nainline Protestantism is dying



One of my favorite lines = "the mainline is now the sideline en route to becoming the flatline."


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## DCAF (May 23, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> Has the PCA church planting efforts in Canada?



Yes. By my count there are about 15 established congregations and half a dozen church plants in Canada. Of course, this is not enough. There are still entire provinces without any Reformed presence whatsoever.


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## Edward (May 23, 2015)

Calvinbeza said:


> Has the PCA church planting efforts in Canada?



Yes, but with limited success. I remember efforts in Quebec some years ago. Nothing there now.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (May 23, 2015)

Both the ARP and the RPCNA have presbyteries and a presence in Ontario, Alberta, Nova Scotia, Quebec, and New Brunswick.

There are a number of Free Church congregations in Canada as well.


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## Calvinbeza (May 23, 2015)

I saw on the PCA Church directory that these churches concentrated in Ontario, Alberta, British Columbia, Nova Scotia, ans New Brunswick. 

Saskatchewan is listen but no congregation there, Quebec is not listed. 

There was plants there but failed, or no not. Saskatchewan is listed, but no PCA church Why?


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## Calvinbeza (May 24, 2015)

> Yes, but with limited success. I remember efforts in Quebec some years ago. Nothing there now.



I heard that PCA churches in Quebec become part of the Reformed Church in Quebec when it was created.


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