# Staying alert during the worship service



## Iconoclast (Oct 24, 2007)

Has anyone looked around from time to time during a sermon,and noticed some people nodding out,or actually sleeping during a sermon? Does this seem strange to you? It is possible that someone might be on medication, or elderly and infirmed that this could happen.However if not for a special physical infirmity is this a cause for some type of intervention? Should it be left to the pastor to mention from the pulpit;ie, proper preparation to hear a sermon. Or how to make preparation the night before to get enough rest in sleep to come in worship alert ,and expecting the blessing of God. 
I mostly am concerned to hear what the sermon has to say to me personally,so I have learned not to focus on these kind of disruptions/distractions. Some times I am not sure if I should approach a member with this concern,but it seems a strange idea to bring up .
I saw an illustration in a book about the puritans, that the men in the church would have long poles that they would use to nudge one of these sleepers. Any thoughts on this? How have you dealt with this in times past, or has it not been an issue where you are?


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 24, 2007)

a little twist on this question-how much of the sleeping has to do with the style, or presentation of the speaker?


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## govols (Oct 24, 2007)

Man, you get me in a room with comfortable chairs, warm temps and a dull teacher / speaker - It is lights out for me no matter how hard I try.

Thankfully my church has none of the above.


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## BobVigneault (Oct 24, 2007)

I agree whole heartedly with John here. After rushing around and getting the kids ready, I settle into the pew, it's warm and comfy and the struggle begins. The last thing I want to do is sleep. My wife nudges me when it happens.

The Bible does give us a solution. We have those prone to nodding off sit in the window on the 3rd story:


> Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight. 8 There were many lamps in the upper room where we were gathered. 9 And a young man named Eutychus, sitting at the window, sank into a deep sleep as Paul talked still longer. And being overcome by sleep, he fell down from the third story and was taken up dead.



That'll cure one's sermon induced narcolepsy.


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## kvanlaan (Oct 24, 2007)

I've heard that in addition to the guys with poles, there was a deacon with a cane up in the gallery where the young bucks sat. There's an idea whose time has come again! (In this age of texting cellphones and the like...)


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## JohnOwen007 (Oct 24, 2007)

houseparent said:


> how much of the sleeping has to do with the style, or presentation of the speaker?



Yes! The preacher must take _some_ responsibility, it can't be entirely upon the listener. One can't be expected to be riveted under incomprehensible or downright boring preaching. The latter is very rude In my humble opinion.

I would suspect it's not a good idea to "prod" people physically and thus make it *public*. If you think someone is staying up to all hours and therefore clonking off during the sermon _*regularly*_, better to do a Matt. 18:25 on him / her and talk to them _in *private*_ (without letting others know) to check you're right.

Looking at other people's sins is easy for us to do, especially if we have a log in our own eye; it also can easily tempt us to feel superior (Gal. 6:1, 3) which completely undermines the gospel.


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## kvanlaan (Oct 24, 2007)

> The last thing I want to do is sleep.



It's OK Bob, it's scriptural! 



> For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.


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## JM (Oct 24, 2007)

I think it was Miles Smith, translator and writer of the preface to the AV, once walked out of a boring sermon and went to the pub.


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## Herald (Oct 24, 2007)

The key is to fold your hands over your chest to make it look like you are deep in prayerful prose.


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## Dr Mike Kear (Oct 24, 2007)

JM said:


> I think it was Miles Smith, translator and writer of the preface to the AV, once walked out of a boring sermon and went to the pub.




Reminds me of Luther: "It is better to think of church in the ale-house than to think of the ale-house in church."


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## sotzo (Oct 24, 2007)

I think a worse problem is mind-wandering. I've been guilty of this...where I begin thinking about a work issue, even perhaps what I'm going to have for lunch afterwards....I find myself repenting during the worship service for these things.

One thing that is helpful, In my humble opinion, is for the worship service to be free of frivilous announcements and begun with a very enthusiastic, strong call to worship that sends a message of "putting the cares of the week aside so that we can hear from God and worship Him - to do what we were created to do above all things." Obviously, if there is a prayer need in the congregation or a serious matter that will distract from worship if it is not brought up prior, then announcing that should probably be done. By frivilous announcements I mean details about potluck suppers, where the youth group is headed next week and the dates of an upcoming men's / women's retreat.


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## Barnpreacher (Oct 24, 2007)

When you guys talk about boring, are you talking about style or substance? Take a guy like Dr. Beeke for example. His style is very low key, but substance wise you can't beat him. So, if he has sleepers then according to some of you it is partly his fault because his style is low key. I don't agree with that at all. A minister is not up there to entertain. He's up there to preach and teach the word of God. If there are sleepers in the congregation it is likely due to the fact that they are either elderly or they treated Saturday night carelessly and didn't get their proper rest for the Lord's Day the next morning. The latter would be my guess in a lot of instances.

As far as interventions go, I would say that those that sleep during the service would just be put off by an intervention as opposed to helped by it. The reason I say that is because if they are sleeping through the service then more than likely they don't really want to be there anyway (unless they are elderly, medicated). If that's the case an intervention would just make their stay even longer.


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## cih1355 (Oct 24, 2007)

Taking notes when the sermon is given is a good way to stay alert. I sometimes take notes and it helps me to remember what was preached.


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## Amazing Grace (Oct 24, 2007)

My problem is too much coffee in the morning. Everytime the sermon comes around I have to run to get rid of the pot of java.


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 24, 2007)

Barnpreacher said:


> When you guys talk about boring, are you talking about style or substance? Take a guy like Dr. Beeke for example. His style is very low key, but substance wise you can't beat him. So, if he has sleepers then according to some of you it is partly his fault because his style is low key. I don't agree with that at all. A minister is not up there to entertain. He's up there to preach and teach the word of God. If there are sleepers in the congregation it is likely due to the fact that they are either elderly or they treated Saturday night carelessly and didn't get their proper rest for the Lord's Day the next morning. The latter would be my guess in a lot of instances.



I disagree

No, it's not a pastor's job to "entertain" but it is his job to hold my attention. Taking public speaking lessons, how you present is at the top of the list! If you've got something important to tell me, then my goodness man act like it's important, speak as thought I MUST get it, I NEED to get, you WANT me to get it. I don't buy into this "style" thing at all. If you're not passionate about that which you're speaking about sit down and let someone present it who is.

Sorry if that sounds harsh.


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## Puddleglum (Oct 24, 2007)

(1) Someone pointed out the problem of letting one's thoughts wander during the sermon. I think that's a good point . . . it's easy to judge people by the appearance (alert v. not-alert) but it's much harder to judge their heart - someone could appear alert but really be rehashing in their head an argument they just had with someone, or planning the next episode of such, or imagining throwing tomatoes at the preacher, or writing next week's to-do list (don't ask me how I know all that stuff . . . :blush. And someone could appear quite non-alert but really be doing the best that they can to stay awake.

(2) Be careful about approaching people. With my job/hours a lot of time my options are either to go to church really tired or just not go at all. Sometimes I stay home and sleep, sometimes I go and try to stay awake. They may be a student juggling a hard quarter and work and the fact that they had a ton of homework to get done on Friday & Saturday evening on top of a long day of clinical one day and a long day of work the next. (Been there too). So if you felt called to start that conversation, I might open with "hey, you've seemed kind of tired lately - how are you doing?" or something like that.
(And also realize that they may have not been getting sleep because of some crazy icky situation that God called them to deal with that they can't tell you about. Been there too). 

(3) My pastor has been known to pause during a Sunday School lesson or sermon and say "if you don't remember anything else, remember what I'm about to say. and if your neighbour is sleeping, now is the time to poke them awake". (I've been both poked and the poke-ee before). 

My 3-point 2cents . . .


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## Barnpreacher (Oct 24, 2007)

houseparent said:


> Barnpreacher said:
> 
> 
> > When you guys talk about boring, are you talking about style or substance? Take a guy like Dr. Beeke for example. His style is very low key, but substance wise you can't beat him. So, if he has sleepers then according to some of you it is partly his fault because his style is low key. I don't agree with that at all. A minister is not up there to entertain. He's up there to preach and teach the word of God. If there are sleepers in the congregation it is likely due to the fact that they are either elderly or they treated Saturday night carelessly and didn't get their proper rest for the Lord's Day the next morning. The latter would be my guess in a lot of instances.
> ...



No, it isn't his job to hold your attention. It's your job to come into the Lord's house on the Lord's Day with a refreshed and rested mind and body, having gotten proper sleep the night before. Style has nothing to do with passion. The passion of a minister is what he has to say to you. Personally, I am a pretty energetic preacher, but that doesn't make me any better than someone who is low-key. 

People want to be entertained in the pews today, and that's not what preaching and teaching is all about.


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## Barnpreacher (Oct 24, 2007)

Puddleglum said:


> (And also realize that they may have not been getting sleep because of some crazy icky situation that God called them to deal with that they can't tell you about. Been there too).



While I appreciate your sentiments and understand what you're saying, my question would be if someone couldn't sleep that night because they were dealing with an issue then why would it be so easy to sleep in the Lord's house the next day?


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 24, 2007)

I still say that what I said is not "entertainment". I could sleep 23 hours and if I go to a service with a boring, slow, methodical preacher I am going to doze off or not be able to focus.



> The passion of a minister is what he has to say to you.



and in my opinion, how he says it.


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 24, 2007)

Also, if I may ad this-this idea that the pastor's "style" isn't important and defensiveness in regard to that feeling, is why I could and would never approach a pastor about it. I've been told that I should do that (in love of course) in the past, and I think it's clear why that's next to impossible. "It's my job" to stay with a pastor, alert and sensitive to his preaching no matter how he does it.


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## Puddleglum (Oct 24, 2007)

Barnpreacher said:


> Puddleglum said:
> 
> 
> > (And also realize that they may have not been getting sleep because of some crazy icky situation that God called them to deal with that they can't tell you about. Been there too).
> ...



Maybe because "dealing with it" involved having lengthy conversations with people that cut into what normally would have been one's sleeping hours.

Maybe because they actually feel safe at church (which they don't elsewhere), and so could actually sleep (not the most spiritual reason, but a real one . . .)

etc.


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## VictorBravo (Oct 24, 2007)

Well, I think you can be low key and still be riveting. I understand that Jonathan Edwards "Sinners in the hands of and Angry God" sermon was delivered quietly. Perhaps it was more convicting because of the low-key delivery.

As for sleepiness, it is a temptation and a trial, I think. Our pews are not comfortable, but that doesn't matter. Sometimes on the Lord's day the urge for slumber creeps up hard. It has nothing to do with lack of rest or preparation, I get more sleep on Saturday night than I do during the week. I take it to be something of a spiritual affiliction.

That being said, I also take it to be my responsibility to stay awake. Focus is a self-discipline, but a quiet prayer to God for strength and wakefullness is always appropriate. As mentioned, note taking might help. Sitting up straight helps too, at least for me. 

As for wacking someone else, I'm not in favor of that unless they start snoring.


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## Barnpreacher (Oct 24, 2007)

houseparent said:


> Also, if I may ad this-this idea that the pastor's "style" isn't important and defensiveness in regard to that feeling, is why I could and would never approach a pastor about it. I've been told that I should do that (in love of course) in the past, and I think it's clear why that's next to impossible. "It's my job" to stay with a pastor, alert and sensitive to his preaching no matter how he does it.



Adam,

If I'm being defensive please forgive me. As I've stated above I'm not being defensive about myself because I am a rather energetic preacher. But I am being defensive about my fellow ministers that don't have that same style. I know you have stated that you don't buy the "style" argument and I respect that. But I listen to ministers like Joel Beeke and Greg Price that would have the reputation of low key ministers, and their sermons are some of the best I've ever heard.

And as far as approaching a pastor about his style, what would you be looking to accomplish in doing so? Just curious.


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## Barnpreacher (Oct 24, 2007)

Puddleglum said:


> Barnpreacher said:
> 
> 
> > Puddleglum said:
> ...




Maybe we just look for excuses to justify sleeping on the Lord's Day in His house.


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## VictorBravo (Oct 24, 2007)

Puddleglum said:


> And someone could appear quite non-alert but really be doing the best that they can to stay awake.



Good point. When I was in law school I developed a talent for being able to listen while dozing off. 

I had a Federal Courts professor who was unusually dull. The class had around 10 students, so it was hard to hide. The professor droned on and on, reading from his notes, never looking up at the students, for 2 hours each late Thursday after noon (in a hot classroom). I could barely take it, usually my head would slump into my hands, but once my head collapsed onto my folded arms-but I still listened in some sort of twilight zone state.

So the professor was droning about jurisdiction and apparently wanted to stick it to me for nodding off. I hear the words: "Mr. Bottomly, on what basis would you argue for jurisdiction on these facts?"

My head lifted up slowly and I heard myself say, "that would be section 1331, federal question jurisdiction." The professor looked startled and said, "Exactly!" It was all I could do to keep from putting my head back down.

The only point of this ramble is to agree with Jessica. Sometimes people who look inattentive still know what is going on.


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## Barnpreacher (Oct 24, 2007)

victorbravo said:


> As for sleepiness, it is a temptation and a trial, I think. Our pews are not comfortable, but that doesn't matter. Sometimes on the Lord's day the urge for slumber creeps up hard. It has nothing to do with lack of rest or preparation, I get more sleep on Saturday night than I do during the week. I take it to be something of a spiritual affiliction.
> 
> That being said, I also take it to be my responsibility to stay awake. Focus is a self-discipline, but a quiet prayer to God for strength and wakefullness is always appropriate. As mentioned, note taking might help. Sitting up straight helps too, at least for me.



Well said, Vic. I know I'm coming across strong in this thread, but there is a reason for that. I believe that today's generation of Christians do not take seriosuly enough their responsibility to get proper rest on Saturday night. I think this is especially true for young parents who let their children stay up way too late on Saturday night.

With that said I do believe there are reasons why slumber might tempt someone on Sunday morning. I understand that a lot of people work crazy hours and a lot of people are elderly or taking medications etc. My whole argument here is that it is not the job of the preacher to keep the flock awake, especially those that did not take Saturday night very seriously as far as their preparation for the Lord's day.


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## Davidius (Oct 24, 2007)

I don't think the boy who fell out of the window did so because Paul needed to spice up his delivery.

We certainly have been trained by our culture to need constant dynamic stimulation of our senses. Ours is a television/microwave/video game society in which things that are quick and don't require much active attention are very popular. We like to sit back and be passively bombarded. Therefore I don't think "style" is the real issue. This is why the seeker sensitive movement exists. 

Being able to pay attention during lectures here on campus as well as in church is sometimes difficult for me. But ultimately I think attentiveness has much more to do with the individual's perceived importance of the subject, or the amount of interest the person has in the substance of the material apart from the "style" of presentation. This is not to say that dynamic speaking is a bad thing. I only mean that I can sit through lectures of various style if I am interested in the content. Since we are sinful we are naturally uninterested in the Gospel. This is why some try to prop the it up on presentation. 

I think the real answer is to try to develop qualities such as patience and attentiveness, something I myself must certainly strive for daily both with regard to study of the Word and in my academic pursuits. We should allow ourselves to be driven by an understanding of the importance of a subject. With respect to the preaching of the Word this means repentance and having faith that God can shape our minds.


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## Mushroom (Oct 24, 2007)

Well, as for me, I just feel very comfortable in my Father's house. 

There are some Churches and Preachers who see enduring long monotone dissertations as evidence of peity. I don't agree with that. I nod on occasion, so I sit up straight and pay closer attention. I have told my Pastor that he can be as monotonous and drudging as he wants as long as he stays within the sweet confines of the truth, and he'll always have at least one happy congregant. I've had more than my share of "exciting" heterodoxy in the past.

Just give my a nudge if I start glazing over....


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## Davidius (Oct 24, 2007)

Brad said:


> I have told my Pastor that he can be as monotonous and drudging as he wants as long as he stays within the sweet confines of the truth, and he'll always have at least one happy congregant. I've had more than my share of "exciting" heterodoxy in the past.
> 
> Just give my a nudge if I start glazing over....



Amen, brother. This is what I was trying to get at above.


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## JohnOwen007 (Oct 24, 2007)

Barnpreacher said:


> It's your job to come into the Lord's house on the Lord's Day [...]



Sorry to quibble, but I suspect this may be connected. There is no such thing as the "Lord's house" as a physical place or edifice under the new covenant. That is old covenant stuff. The Lord's house (or temple) in the OT is fulfilled in Christ, who's body is the temple that was raised in 3 days. Hence, when believers are united to Christ by faith they become part of God's temple whether on Sunday or throughout the week. 24-7 they are united to Christ and thus 24-7 they are God's temple. Hence, all of our life is now worship because we are the temple 24-7 (Rom. 12:1).

The ostensible reason why believers gather now is for edification / building through the word (1 Cor. 14:26; Heb. 10:24-25). I can't find worship as the purpose of the New Covenant gathering anywhere in the NT.

This puts a new spin on the preaching issue. If edification / building through the word is the purpose of gathering, then what must go on must be comprehensible to all. Boring preaching makes edification difficult and the preacher has the job not to be boring. The alternative to being boring is not necessarily entertainment.

Why would a preacher want to make it difficult to hear the greatest message in the world? If Paul said he would become all things to all mean, then surely this applies preaching?

Blessings.


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## Barnpreacher (Oct 24, 2007)

JohnOwen007 said:


> Barnpreacher said:
> 
> 
> > It's your job to come into the Lord's house on the Lord's Day [...]
> ...



 - Sorry to laugh. I'm not laughing at you. It's just that I was once a hardcore Dispensational that used to lecture people on this issue and now I'm getting a lecture on it. Pretty ironic. I understand what the Lord's house is in the New Covenant, but I'm not sure I'd quibble with anyone on calling the church house the Lord's house anymore. 

As far a boring message goes, I don't believe there is such a thing if it is truth from the word of God. How can God's LIVING, POWERFUL, and EFFECTUAL word ever be boring?


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## toddpedlar (Oct 24, 2007)

Check out "Remedy for Wandering Thoughts in Worship" by Richard Steele. It's a great, if brief, treatment of the subject. Take this with Burroughs's "Gospel Worship" and you'll find plenty of encouragement to stay awake 

I also find that the doziness one might feel on the Lord's Day is inversely proportional to the amount of preparation for worship that is done the night before. If you're prepared (clothing laid out, Bibles in a handy place, kids bathed, etc.) and well rested and in a thoughtful frame the previous night, the morning goes so much more smoothly - and it is much easier to worship well in singing, praying and hearing.


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## etexas (Oct 24, 2007)

I can tell you how NOT to stay awake.....I was in Sunday Scool one Morning years ago and I had a HORRID headache. I asked the Lady beside me if she had anything....well...she slides a couple of pills into my hand and I thanked her and popped them.....a few minutes later I said "what did I just take?"......she answered"Vicodin 10.".......OK people I was in Stawberry Fields......I had 20 milligrams of hydrocodone floating in my system on an empty tummy. I went to Church after the class...pastor told me something.....I mumbled something....I get to my pew....and realize..I have no idea what my pastor told me! I sat through the servive....all I remember was the music sounded really good that day! Thats about it....I saw this thread and remembered that story and started to chuckle. Just thought I would share with a how not to stay focused!


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## Dr Mike Kear (Oct 24, 2007)




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## etexas (Oct 24, 2007)

Dr Mike Kear said:


>


...All I wanted was some asprin!


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## Barnpreacher (Oct 24, 2007)

etexas said:


> I can tell you how NOT to stay awake.....I was in Sunday Scool one Morning years ago and I had a HORRID headache. I asked the Lady beside me if she had anything....well...she slides a couple of pills into my hand and I thanked her and popped them.....a few minutes later I said "what did I just take?"......she answered"Vicodin 10.".......OK people I was in Stawberry Fields......I had 20 milligrams of hydrocodone floating in my system on an empty tummy. I went to Church after the class...pastor told me something.....I mumbled something....I get to my pew....and realize..I have no idea what my pastor told me! I sat through the servive....all I remember was the music sounded really good that day! Thats about it....I saw this thread and remembered that story and started to chuckle. Just thought I would share with a how not to stay focused!



Funny stuff, Max.


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## Barnpreacher (Oct 24, 2007)

I want to make sure everyone knows where I'm coming from in this thread. I think I've come across the wrong way (as usual when it comes to this board because I struggle to express what I mean sometimes when I'm typing).

My beef is with people that don't get a proper rest on Saturday night because they chose not too. Not because of circumstances that were out of their hands (work, health, kids crying all night etc.). toddpedlar's post is exactly what I am talking about. People don't prepare for the Lord's day on Saturday night. They let their kids stay up till 10 or 11 p.m. and then the kids are worn out for church the next day. And I think many times the adults don't get the proper rest for their own bodies that will prepare them for Lord's day worship. This is a choice they make (as I noted above some things are out of our hands when it comes to this). 

And so when I hear that people are dozing off in church and blaming it on the minister being boring then it does cause me to get a little defensive. As I noted in an earlier post, if the man of God is preaching true doctrine from the word of God then how can it be boring? It's the living word of God! I listen to lectures by Greg Bahnsen that are a solid hour and a half, and he's pretty monotone throughout the whole lecture. I don't fall asleep listening to them. In fact they are tremendous food for the soul. The same goes for Beeke and Price and other low key preachers.

I just don't like people (not saying anyone here is doing this) accusing the preacher of putting them to sleep when he's preaching from the powerful word of God. I don't care how low key he is, the problem is not with the preacher. 

Grace and peace,

RB


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## JBaldwin (Oct 24, 2007)

> This puts a new spin on the preaching issue. If edification / building through the word is the purpose of gathering, then what must go on must be comprehensible to all. Boring preaching makes edification difficult and the preacher has the job not to be boring. The alternative to being boring is not necessarily entertainment.
> 
> Why would a preacher want to make it difficult to hear that greatest message in the world? If Paul said he would become all things to all mean, then surely this applies preaching?



I can't help commenting on this in lieu of circumstances in my own family. We have had the experience of being in a church where our elementary aged daughters were totally unable to comprehend the sermons, because they were preached at the college level. We have also been in a church where the pastor took the time to ensure that theology was explained so that the elementary aged children and teens could follow it. (In both cases that I mention, the pastors preached expositorily, and they didn't overlook difficult passages.) 

Though I firmly believe that children and teens (as well as adults) should learn to pay attention in church, I also believe that pastors should remember that not everyone in the congregation is able to comprehend theology at the college level. There are ways of explaining truth so that all believers, at every intellectual level, can understand. 

For a parent, there is nothing more delightful to come home from church on the Lord's day and have their child talk about what spiritual truth they learned that day, because a pastor took the time to make sure they understood. 

I honestly believe that if some pastors took the time to ensure that their preaching was understandable (and I'm not talking about being entertaining), fewer people would doze off during sermons.


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## Amazing Grace (Oct 24, 2007)

Barnpreacher said:


> I want to make sure everyone knows where I'm coming from in this thread. I think I've come across the wrong way (as usual when it comes to this board because I struggle to express what I mean sometimes when I'm typing).
> 
> My beef is with people that don't get a proper rest on Saturday night because they chose not too. Not because of circumstances that were out of their hands (work, health, kids crying all night etc.). toddpedlar's post is exactly what I am talking about. People don't prepare for the Lord's day on Saturday night. They let their kids stay up till 10 or 11 p.m. and then the kids are worn out for church the next day. And I think many times the adults don't get the proper rest for their own bodies that will prepare them for Lord's day worship. This is a choice they make (as I noted above some things are out of our hands when it comes to this).
> 
> ...



RB, this whole discussion is coming from 2 different directions. You will protect the ordained side, and others who are not HAVE to take the other side because of lack of empathy. The responsibilities are with BOTH parties involved. I am to be attentive and the preacher is to be preaching with power. Not dullness of speech as if it is such a tedious unenjoyable work. Granted, this is cultural too. Look, I live in the "Little Geneva" of the USA. Grand Rapids/Holland Michigan. And the Dutch are not known for their energy and captivating speech. Growing up I thought noone had any teeth since noone smiled. One must maintain a "proper" sullen approach when at the service. Even the pastor. This is the rule. And to be honest, it is not Holy Spirit preaching or Holy Spirit listening. So you can accuse me, becasue I want to be clear, I have been put to sleep by a pastor many of times. With no personal excuse. I am not tired. I am well rested, my wife has prepared us saturday night for a smooth morning, yet at times, he was so dull and monotone with no inflection that i either had 2 choices, nod off, or just read the bible and pray the last 3 words of "Let us pary" come quickly. At other times I have not been prepared and sinfully disregard my end of the covenant and dozed off becasue of staying up late watching an extra inning game.

Just as you ask," how can a preacher be putting them to sleep when he's preaching from the powerful word of God?" I ask you the same question, how could one so involved in the word of God, preach it with no energy and excitement about the work of Christ? This is what some only do. It is impossible to me. 

And J Baldwin brings up another good point, I like a plain simple sermon. a pastor might have more degrees than a thermometer, and yet not preach to those who dont. But then again, people do like things they cant understand. throw in alot of hebrew and greek and the laity will have to be in awe becasue you have so much knowledge. But all it is is window dressing. 

Now if I seem harsh, thats becasue I am. Both parties are responsible, but the onous is on you RB. You are the Shepard. We are the dumb sheep. We need to be spoonfed, we need to be carried, we need to be edified, we are the broken, the lame, the blind. I see little if any biblical scriptures giving any responsibility to the sheep. Yet it is filled with the responsibilities of the shepard caring for the sheep. 

And lastly, There is a big difference between style when it comes to preachign and teaching. The worship service is not a lecture. Save that for the classroom. and Bible Study. 

Now we cant pick and choose, and i will never leave a congregation becasue the pastor is dull. One reason is becasue our dependance is on God, not man. But if I had my choice, I honestly would like one with the style of TD Jakes, and solid biblical theology of Calvin. And dont run to the extreme and think I need to be entertained, that is not it at all. I am just giving you a personal preferance.


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## Barnpreacher (Oct 24, 2007)

I think some of you are still misunderstanding what I'm trying to say. I don't want to go any farther in the discussion because it seems to be past the point of edification at this time.

Blessings!


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## Barnpreacher (Oct 24, 2007)

Edited last post because I didn't think I was very edifying in what I said. 

Blessings!


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## Puddleglum (Oct 24, 2007)

Barnpreacher said:


> Puddleglum said:
> 
> 
> > Barnpreacher said:
> ...



I don't think I've explained myself very well. I'll give it one more shot and then bow out. 

I'm NOT saying that sleeping in church is a good thing. I think it's a good thing to try to "set yourself up for success" - take notes, drink coffee, try to go to bed at a reasonable hour, etc. 
But - I am saying that sometimes God sovereignly puts people in situations which makes it difficult for them to stay awake in church, even if they want to. And I'm asking you not to jump to conclusions about a persons situation - maybe they really are going to the 2230 showing of the newest movie every Saturday evening and then going out for coffee afterwards just because they want to and thus are having trouble staying awake in church. But you don't know that unless a person tells you that. But - it could be that that person just got off work, and the church service is in the normal sleeping hours. But they desire to worship God with His people on His day so they try to come and stay awake even though it's a battle. Or it could be a whole host of things. And I'd like to encourage you to, instead of just saying "you're wrong" (and maybe I'm mis-interpreting you and that's not what you're trying to say - in that case, I'm sorry), to come alongside your brothers and sisters and encourage them - yes, rebuke when necessary, but maybe what they need is not a change in attitude, but prayer for a change in circumstances. 
Ok, that's enough for me on this one.


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## Puddleglum (Oct 24, 2007)

Barnpreacher - sorry, I hadn't finished reading the thread before I wrote all that. I think I understand what you're saying better now. :shakehands:


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## Barnpreacher (Oct 24, 2007)

Puddleglum said:


> Barnpreacher - sorry, I hadn't finished reading the thread before I wrote all that. I think I understand what you're saying better now. :shakehands:



No problem, Jessica. Thanks for reading all my posts to get a better idea of what I was trying to say. My main concern is those that want to sleep in church and then blame it on a "boring preacher." I fully understand circumstances that cause sleepiness in church (work hours, sickness, baby keeping one up all night etc.). I deal with those all the time in the ministry and I try to have tremendous compassion towards those dear saints of God that are battling in this area. It's those that just want to blame a preacher for putting them to sleep that bother me, especially when they may have had the choice to make better Lord's day preparation on Saturday and chose not to.



Great quote by Cowper in your signature.


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## Barnpreacher (Oct 24, 2007)

Puddleglum said:


> I don't think I've explained myself very well.



Don't feel too badly about that, I never seem to explain myself very well when it comes to conversing on this board. I think I may be one of the top five misunderstood posters on this board because of my inability to express what I want to say through a forum. Thank God we don't have forum churches or I'd be out of the ministry.


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## Rev. Todd Ruddell (Oct 25, 2007)

It seems to me that there are various reasons for people struggling with dozing during the Worship Service, and not all of them have to do with a lack of preparation for the Lord's day. Some simply have trouble sitting, listening, for that long without some dozing-off episodes--for some, it would not matter if they were watching the television, a sporting contest, etc. 

I encourage our congregation, if they're having trouble staying awake, to stand near the back of the sanctuary, where it will be easier to stay alert--and I am careful to say that this is not a shameful thing--to sit and doze is worse than to stand alert. We have particulary lengthy services--sometimes 2.5 hours or longer. The worship service is a place where there's great work to be done, and it's worth the effort. 

So, I encourage our congregation to prepare, get good rest, have a little protein in the morning, not sugar, a little coffee if they're so inclined. Do what one can to stay alert, and for my part, I try to put the best construction on the state and preparation of those who are "fighting it". It's the ones who have "given up" that need the instruction the most. However, most do continue their efforts at being alert--and if you offer them the option of standing in the rear of the sanctuary, many have found that to be very helpful.


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## Iconoclast (Oct 25, 2007)

Barnpreacher said:


> Puddleglum said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think I've explained myself very well.
> ...



Thank you for taking the time to respond to this post,as well as all the other's who have interacted with it. I think most everyone in here[PB] takes the instruction to "take heed how you hear" very seriously. Sometimes the area of sanctification has many deep veins that are presented in the scriptures for us.
Certainly it points out our need of prayer in our daily walk,and even especially when we are to come together to worship. I see our worship as blending in with the worship described in Revelation 4-5, even if we only know in part and sometimes what we offer is not as pure as our heart would like it to be.
I read where some of the puritans considered people who would sleep during the sermon as a sign of reprobation. Maybe Don Kistler would know more about that. 
Perhaps as one suggested bringing up this area in a private way, or just having open an honest discussions about what is the proper attitude to bring in worship,if we would see the blessing of God in our assemblies is a way to address this issue.
Each one of us has certain expectations of what we desire in preaching. Unless the Spirit is blessing it ,[whether it is quiet and methodical, or very animated] it will not profit.
I have heard of some ,even on sermon audio who kind of scream,and gasp for breath thinking that it is preaching ,or "the annointing" [ there is a father and son on sermonaudio]. I doubt that anyone sleeps there, but I am pretty sure that no one understands those emotional kind of out -bursts, because you cannot even understand the words spoken.
The seeker sensitive churches just add to the confusion. Spurgeon once mentioned in a sermon the verse in 1Pet where angels "desire to look into the things of salvation". He spoke of them perhaps observing us as we prepare to assemble with the local body. I might have to look this sermon up tonight and re-read it.


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## py3ak (Oct 26, 2007)

I suspect there are people who could sleep or be distracted through the best of preachers: and I suspect that there are preachers who could put a hyperactive person to sleep in the middle of their mountain dew. Just as every preacher who thinks that the message of Scripture is worth announcing will make an effort to be audible and intelligible, so he will make an effort as well to be engaging and interesting. And every congregant who believes that God has given pastors and teachers to the church will make an effort to listen and stay awake, unless past experience has discouraged him with some particular preacher. Of course, all of these efforts all around may be abysmal failures.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Oct 27, 2007)

toddpedlar said:


> Check out "Remedy for Wandering Thoughts in Worship" by Richard Steele. It's a great, if brief, treatment of the subject. Take this with Burroughs's "Gospel Worship" and you'll find plenty of encouragement to stay awake



Here's a portion from Steele (pp. 72-73) on this subject which is good Saturday reading: 



> SECT. III.
> 
> _Unpreparedness._
> 
> ...


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## clstamper (Oct 27, 2007)

Bring a PDA. Sit in the back row. Play sudoku.


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## cwjudyjr (Oct 27, 2007)

*Maybe it's me...*



Iconoclast said:


> Has anyone looked around from time to time during a sermon,and noticed some people nodding out,or actually sleeping during a sermon? Does this seem strange to you? It is possible that someone might be on medication, or elderly and infirmed that this could happen.However if not for a special physical infirmity is this a cause for some type of intervention? Should it be left to the pastor to mention from the pulpit;ie, proper preparation to hear a sermon. Or how to make preparation the night before to get enough rest in sleep to come in worship alert ,and expecting the blessing of God.
> I mostly am concerned to hear what the sermon has to say to me personally,so I have learned not to focus on these kind of disruptions/distractions. Some times I am not sure if I should approach a member with this concern,but it seems a strange idea to bring up .
> I saw an illustration in a book about the puritans, that the men in the church would have long poles that they would use to nudge one of these sleepers. Any thoughts on this? How have you dealt with this in times past, or has it not been an issue where you are?




I have to say that if I am looking and pondering others nodding off or doing whatever during worship, then I am not focused on the sermon and worship myself. Then the log is in my eye even though I am awake.

There may be many reasons someone has trouble focusing. I agree with the earlier post (JohnOwen007) that using Matt 18 as our standard for appoaching another, or for being approached myself when needed, is the way to handle any situation such as this. Then we are not looking at others and wondering, diverted ourselves, but finding the cause and helping them as needed. 

Conrad


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## calgal (Oct 27, 2007)

clstamper said:


> Bring a PDA. Sit in the back row. Play sudoku.


  Unless a person knows every single life story AND medical history of every member of their church, making assumptions about a person's Sunday slumber would fall under gossip.


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