# Signs of Grace (Especially for the Paedobaptist brethren)



## Ianterrell (Jun 10, 2004)

Hypothetical situation: A child has grown up a son of the church, been taught good doctrine and developed basically moral habits. He was baptized as a child, and as such is considered in the covenant. Now this child is basically &quot;moral&quot;, and orthodox in his understanding, but as he matures it becomes apparent that this is all that he has. He has no particular inward devotional life to God. He has no true saving faith to speak of as far as his family and friends can tell. How should the local elders and congregation handle such an individual?


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## Saiph (Jun 10, 2004)

[quote:b63f73301f]
He has no particular inward devotional life to God. He has no true saving faith to speak of as far as his family and friends can tell.
[/quote:b63f73301f]

Please list the criteria those around him are using to judge or discern this.

What does someone who has a deep inward devotional life look like ? ?

What do they do differently, and can't that be mimicked also ??


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## Puritan Sailor (Jun 10, 2004)

[quote:9ba519b095][i:9ba519b095]Originally posted by Ianterrell[/i:9ba519b095]
Hypothetical situation: A child has grown up a son of the church, been taught good doctrine and developed basically moral habits. He was baptized as a child, and as such is considered in the covenant. Now this child is basically &quot;moral&quot;, and orthodox in his understanding, but as he matures it becomes apparent that this is all that he has. He has no particular inward devotional life to God. He has no true saving faith to speak of as far as his family and friends can tell. How should the local elders and congregation handle such an individual? [/quote:9ba519b095]
It is trhe responsibility of the elders (and his parents) to see that this man grow up to maturity in the faith. Therefore the elders must interview him to the best of their ability to see if that faith has in fact grown, or even is present before allowing him into communion. Hopefully the elders would ask this man about his devotional life and how he views Christ. If he gives all the right answers, and lives an outwardly moral life, then we don't have any grounds to reject him. He professes faith and lives it. If it is found later that he is a Pharisee, then that can be dealt with as it comes.


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## Irishcat922 (Jun 10, 2004)

Ian,
I agree with Patrick, I think it is up to the Elders of the church to interveiw the individual members and discern whether they have genuine faith. Having said that they are not infallible, by any means, to judge the condition of a man's heart, but have been given a commission by the Lord to use proper judgment in these matters. 

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Matt. 7:16-17.

The Lord Jesus, as king and head of His Church, has therein appointed a government, in the hand of Church officers, distinct from the civil magistrate. WCF Ch.30:1

Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour,1 especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. 1Tim. 5:17

WCF 30:2. To these officers the keys of the kingdom of heaven are committed; by virtue whereof, they have power, respectively, to retain, and remit sins; to shut that kingdom against the impenitent, both by the Word, and censures; and to open it unto penitent sinners, by the ministry of the Gospel; and by absolution from censures, as occasion shall require.

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matt 16:9


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## Ianterrell (Jun 10, 2004)

[quote:d8143bd488][i:d8143bd488]Originally posted by Wintermute[/i:d8143bd488]
[quote:d8143bd488]
He has no particular inward devotional life to God. He has no true saving faith to speak of as far as his family and friends can tell.
[/quote:d8143bd488]

Please list the criteria those around him are using to judge or discern this.

What does someone who has a deep inward devotional life look like ? ?

What do they do differently, and can't that be mimicked also ?? [/quote:d8143bd488]

Mark,

Your point is taken. What criteria do you use to tell if someone is or isn't truly abiding in Christ, I think Patrick and Sean hit it on the head. This question was posed to me though perhaps more clearly stated by my Baptist elder. We had a debate this past Wednsday. I basically replied along the lines of what Pat and Sean expressed. He seemed under the impression that Presbyterians didn't think this way. That I was going to be a lone ranger.

[b:d8143bd488]Can I pose another question?[/b:d8143bd488]

If a child of say 10 expressed unrepentantly he did not believe in God though he had been catechized born of Christian parents, should that child be considered apostate?


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## Saiph (Jun 10, 2004)

[quote:8f061aed19]
If a child of say 10 expressed unrepentantly he did not believe in God though he had been catechized born of Christian parents, should that child be considered apostate? 
[/quote:8f061aed19]

At least in danger of apostasy.


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## Ianterrell (Jun 10, 2004)

Mark I would agree. So I guess I'm not crazy after all...


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## Craig (Jun 10, 2004)

[quote:2d6367ec6a]
Mark I would agree. So I guess I'm not crazy after all...
[/quote:2d6367ec6a]
Unless......you're both crazy!!!

But, don't fear, I agree too. This proves neither of you are crazy.


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## Ianterrell (Jun 10, 2004)

[quote:c561e3af43][i:c561e3af43]Originally posted by Craig[/i:c561e3af43]
[quote:c561e3af43]
Mark I would agree. So I guess I'm not crazy after all...
[/quote:c561e3af43]
Unless......you're both crazy!!!

But, don't fear, I agree too. This proves neither of you are crazy. [/quote:c561e3af43]

Unless...


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