# At what point is someone not a Christian before the church?



## chuckd (Oct 29, 2014)

I found this thread helpful in understanding what a Christian is "before the church." (then I realized I participated in it )



MW said:


> Some qualifications need to be made, but basically, yes, baptism functions as a mark of profession before the church. Reformed theology considers that there is an outward sign and an inward grace. Ideally the outward and inward should never be divorced. They only come to be separated because of the sad reality of false profession. This reality practically forces us to separate the two and to speak of baptism as only marking the external profession before the church. *Where there is no reason for supposing there is a false profession* there is no basis for separating the external and internal, and so the outward sign of baptism may be spoken of as if it marked the internal possession of the grace signified. There is no doubt that the New Testament regularly speaks in this way through the "judgment of charity." At the same time it issues warnings to impress on individuals that they must come to a "judgment of certainty" in relation to their own personal possession of grace in Christ, and directs the believer to trust in Christ rather than their outward privileges. It also uses the outward privilege as a basis to exhort "believers" to walk worthy of their calling.



If an outward profession of faith, baptism, church membership make an individual a Christian _before the church_, what are the "reasons for supposing there is a false profession?"


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## Contra_Mundum (Oct 29, 2014)

4-major issues:Gross and unrepentant sin.
Neglect of the means of grace.
Maintaining/spreading heretical doctrine.
Refusing correction.​Any of these, or all of them; perhaps other things, but almost surely related to these.


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## Peairtach (Oct 29, 2014)

> If an outward profession of faith, baptism, church membership make an individual a Christian before the church, what are the "reasons for supposing there is a false profession?"



If they show signs of a false profession they are to be admonished, and if they are communicant members they are to be debarred from the Lord's Table.

E.g. 


> Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done...... But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. (Acts 8:13, 8:20-23)



But there is a sense in which someone who is baptised has a lifelong link with the Covenant of Grace and the Visible Church, evinced by the fact that if he/she shows signs of true faith and repentance, he won't be baptised again.

That doesn't end until there is final impenitence at death.


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## whirlingmerc (Oct 30, 2014)

If you openly denied the faith


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## C. M. Sheffield (Oct 30, 2014)

The Baptist Confession (26.2) states: 

_“All persons throughout the world, professing the faith of the Gospel, and obedience unto God by Christ, according unto it; not destroying their own profession by any Errors everting the foundation, or unholyness of conversation, are and may be called visible Saints; and of such ought all particular Congregations to be constituted.”_​
To break this statement down, a *Visible Saint* (i.e. someone who is a Christian in the eyes of the church) is someone who positively professes:

Faith in the Gospel, and 
Obedience to God by Christ (i.e. repentance from sin)

And who also does not undermine that profession negatively by: 

Errors everting the foundation (i.e. serious error and heresy) or
Unholiness of conversation (i.e. a sinful life)

Therefore, when a member of the Church (i.e. a visible saint) persists in any sin or error to the point that it requires the Church to take the awful action of excommunicating them from its membership, at that point, they have forfeited any claim to being a Christian and are to be esteemed by the Church as "an heathen man and a publican" (Matt. 18:17). In other words, they are viewed as unbelievers.


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## chuckd (Oct 31, 2014)

Thanks for the responses. How do Reformed denominations view non-Reformed: Methodist, Arminian, Orthodox, Roman Catholic? Excommunicated or Christian? I would assume "errors everting the foundation" or "maintaining/spreading heretical doctrine" would be something along the lines as against the Apostle's or Nicene creed which these people believe.


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