# "For I know the plans I have for you..." Is this for me, or just Israel?



## alwaysreforming (Jul 21, 2005)

So many of my contemporary evang. friends quote Old Testament passages that were specifically intended for Israel and apply them to themselves and their current situations.

Because we are the Church, is there a certain sense in which the "good news" that was intended for Israel can be made to fit our current circumstances?

I'm sure that there is a limited sense of application to most of these in our present lives, because they say something of God's faithfulness, or mercy, or power, etc... but when is it going too far?

Everytime people "go around the room" and tell what their favorite passage is, so often its something that doesn't seem to pass the hermenuetical test in the way they are thinking its in reference to themselves. Its seems to be a confusion of whether or not the "meaning is in the text" or "the meaning is in the intention of the writer."


Any input, examples, etc?


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## Scott Bushey (Jul 21, 2005)

Practically, I believe it is a promise to Israel. The mentioning of bringing you back from where I have driven you brings to mind the Diaspora. However, the believer can find personal comfort in it as well.


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## JKLeoPCA (Jul 21, 2005)

I find the same thing within the evangelical circles I associate with.

I think it's a confusion over reading one's self into the OT, Verses; reading in context (as Robin would say ;o) ) and finding the eternal truths that are to be found and applied.

My Evangelical friends seem to look into the OT to only find examples, types, and steps to follow (the seven steps of so-and-so to achieve this and that). I would say that I read the OT trying to find those eternal truths and principles, within the story of Christ and the Church, that when taken to heart (believed in to the point it changes what you do) becomes more applicable to the Christian life and more practical for everyday life. 

To me the search for steps and methods to follow to "make thing better." are more mystical then Christian. I feel that some of my friends (although I try to sway them) seek to only find ways to put the right sequence of buttons with God to get from Him what they want out of life. But I guess that's another discussion.


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## alwaysreforming (Jul 21, 2005)

So what if someone were to say to you, "Look, cheer up! You need to stand on God's promises in His Word! Right here it says, 'I know the plans I have for you, sayeth the Lord. Plans to prosper you, to give you hope and a future.' See, God has something wonderful for your life planned out! He has BIG plans for you, and you'll be prosperous and have a great life ahead of you!"

Or you could take Zephaniah 3:17 "He will rejoice over you with singing."
"God is so happy and excited about you that He is right now rejoicing over you with singing!"

Certainly, NUMEROUS other examples could be given. Isn't this just taking a verse out of context and making it say whatever you want it to say? It seems inappropriate at best.


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## JKLeoPCA (Jul 22, 2005)

In most cases I try to address that I understand their intent, but offer to look with them at the verse in question in context. Then, in a graceful way give them my point of view as how to approach whatever that life situation is.

in your example:



> So what if someone were to say to you, "Look, cheer up! You need to stand on God's promises in His Word! Right here it says, 'I know the plans I have for you, sayeth the Lord. Plans to prosper you, to give you hope and a future.' See, God has ssomething wonderful for your life planned out! He has BIG plans for you, and you'll be prosperous and have a great life ahead of you!"




I'd probably go into the context of the whole of Jeremiah Chapter 29, being a letter from Jeremiah to the elders and priests and people who were in captivity. (and by the quotes figure out what version of Scripture that's from)

I'd probably state something to the effect that although I'm not in captivity in a foreign land, the verse does remind me of being set free from the captivity of sin and death, as better found in Ephesians 2:1-10. 

I'd probably go on to state something about expecting to suffer for Christ's sake, and that although the Bible does not assure me of health, wealth, and happiness in this life, it does assure us that God, has secured for us a divine eternity that is not yet. 

Also being me, I'm sure i'd load the person up with questions to make them think about their statement. Ask something like, "How am I to live if I can't know God's "Big" plan for my life?" Or, "What do you make of humble and pious Christians who are not materially "prosperous"?" 



[Edited on 7-22-2005 by JKLeoPCA]


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Jul 22, 2005)

This was ALWAYS being quoted at some of my old churches. I had to do more research into it just to defend myself against its venom. JKLeoPCA already touched on this. Is Jeremiah 29:11 addressed to Israel or the Church? or neither? I believe it is a bit more select than either of those. Who then is it addressing? "This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says to all those I carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon" (Jeremiah 29:4). It is written not to Israel, nor to the church but is written _to the exiles carried from Jerusalem to Babylon_.


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## andreas (Jul 22, 2005)

Quote: 

***Because we are the Church, is there a certain sense in which the "good news" that was intended for Israel can be made to fit our current circumstances?***

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2 Timothy 3:16

andreas.


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## Scott Bushey (Jul 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Abd_Yesua_alMasih_
> This was ALWAYS being quoted at some of my old churches. I had to do more research into it just to defend myself against its venom. JKLeoPCA already touched on this. Is Jeremiah 29:11 addressed to Israel or the Church? or neither? I believe it is a bit more select than either of those. Who then is it addressing? "This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says to all those I carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon" (Jeremiah 29:4). It is written not to Israel, nor to the church but is written _to the exiles carried from Jerusalem to Babylon_.



Abd_Yesua_alMasih,
Do you think that those subject to the diaspora were any less Israeli or the church?


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Jul 22, 2005)

I am not sure I understand your question.


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## Scott Bushey (Jul 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Abd_Yesua_alMasih_
> I am not sure I understand your question.



You previously said:



> It is written not to Israel, nor to the church but is written to the exiles carried from Jerusalem to Babylon



I asked:



> Do you think that those subject to the diaspora (those exiled) were any less Israeli or the church?


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## heartoflesh (Jul 22, 2005)

Yes, the immediate context was the exiles carried from Jerusalem to Babylon, however there is nothing preventing God's children in all dispensations from applying the general truth of the verse to their lives.

Does God know the plans he has for you? Does he promise you hope and future? 

Who can possibly deny this?

On the other hand, there are undoubtedly passages of Scripture that people misapply for lack of context. A great example is 1 Cor. 3:15... "he himself will be saved, but only as through fire". I've heard this verse used to defend the "carnal christian" teaching. This comes from interpreting Paul as describing every individual Christian. A look at the context, however, shows that he is talking specifically about ministers...possibly even Apostles?


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## bond-servant (Jul 22, 2005)

OT passages are wonderful at showing us the character of God. Though, the *covenant* has changed and because of this His actions toward us may be different, but His character stays the same.


Mal 3:6 "For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed. 

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Jul 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> Abd_Yesua_alMasih,
> Do you think that those subject to the diaspora were any less Israeli or the church?


Thanks, now I understand your question. They were Israelite and I suppose you could argue the Church but it would be a mistake to say that the promise of prosperity was aimed at all the chosen people. It is a hard question to say whether they were any less Israelite/Chosen People/"Christian". My first thoughts were that they are. They were certainly _erring_ brethren who God was punishing for _their_ good.

It does display God's faithfulness yet again though.


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