# Predestination Arguement



## Scot (Sep 1, 2005)

I recently had a discussion with a pastor that gave me this view of predestination:

Ephesians 1:4 &amp; 5 - According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: *Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children* by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

Compare with:

Romans 8:23 - And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves, *waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.*

Adoption = Resurrection

Therefore, God is saying that when we believe we are predestinated to receive resurrected bodies. Predestination in the Bible is not talking about salvation. It's our choice and if we choose Christ, we are predestinated unto the adoption (resurrection).

Anyone heard this arguement before? It's a first for me (not that I'm buying into it).


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## JKLeoPCA (Sep 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scot_
> I recently had a discussion with a pastor that gave me this view of predestination:
> 
> Ephesians 1:4 & 5 - According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: *Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children* by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will
> ...




Yeah I have heard of it before. It basically is the Dispensational way of dealing with words they can't avoid, such as elect and predestined. They enjoin to these words that Christians are always portrayed as being "in Christ." The Act of predestination and election is only realized as Christ was elected to die for our sins, and He was predestined to do all He did, and that as He rose again, the salvation He makes possible is only found "in Him." So how do you get to be "in Christ?" You have to excersize your free will and choose to be. Then once you are "in Christ" you are now said to be elect, and predestined, as Christ was predestined and elect of the Father. 


This argument is greatly expounded in;

Shank, Robert, _Elect in the Son_, Minneapolis: Bethany House Publishers 1989

P.S. I don't buy it either :bigsmile:


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## Robin (Sep 2, 2005)

Who said we can yank verses out of context to mean what we want? The context refutes the claim...actually, the reference to "adoption" is a legal one tied-to justification (a legal forensic declaration) which IS tied to salvation (or it means nothing.) In Romans, chapter 8 is a logical argument stemming from what Paul has already posed in chapters 1-7. At the least, don't seperate chapters 5, 6, 7 and 8 to understand Paul's reasoning.

Ephesians 1:3-14

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 


In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. 


Romans 8:1--30
Life in the Spirit
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. 

Heirs with Christ
So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons[e] of God. 15For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. 

Future Glory
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience. 

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. 

Prove it from Scripture.

Robin

(sigh..."demons of stupidity, indeed")

[Edited on 9-2-2005 by Robin]


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## JKLeoPCA (Sep 2, 2005)

But,... any good Dispensational will not be versed in studying that way. They are conditioned to search topically. As a Dispensational, back in the day, if you had a topic you wanted to research for a lesson, you broke out your _Strong's exhaustive Concordance of the Bible_, and just used the verses that you find per word or like words. Dispensationalists have problems with these words (elect, predestination,...) being in the Bible. so topically they can diffuse them all in one shot if they dump them all in one bucket. Kind of like how they will say that, "All means all," throughout the Bible. They don't ever seem to refer to context (which would drive Robin to buy a gun and climb a tower, hahahaha), but only to specific verses that support the doctrine or idea they are presenting at the time. Ever hear of Baptist airconditioning? I recall being in churches on Sunday morning where we skipped back and forth through the Bible as the pastor mentioned verses from here, there, and everywhere, just because they had a word or two that related to his topic.In this same way the passages of Jabez can be separated from the whole of the Bible and a whole series of self-help books are born.


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## Robin (Sep 2, 2005)

Well, then...teach them to study that way! (when opportunity arises)

Teach them. All we need to do is read well. Is there anything else in life we yank sentences/verses out? How about an insurance policy; a sports article; chocolate-chip cookie recipe? What?

How dare we do violence to God's Word?
r.

[Edited on 9-2-2005 by Robin]


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## BrianBowman (Sep 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scot_
> I recently had a discussion with a pastor that gave me this view of predestination:
> 
> Ephesians 1:4 & 5 - According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: *Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children* by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will
> ...



This a seriously flawed attempt at practicing any form of sound Scriptural exposition. Taking these statements at face value, they appear to be a *very* shallow attempt at dismissing God's sovereign elective decree. The comparison of _adoption_ and _resurrection_ form no basis for equivalence.

Consider Romans 8:15

For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "œAbba! Father!" 

Here the Greek for "recieved" is elabete, an aorist active indicative. In my (simple) understanding of the Greek grammar here, "the Spirit of adoption" (same Gk. word for Adoption as 8:23) has already been be received as a fact, at the point in time reader encounters this verse.

Even ignoring his failure to factor simple Greek exegesis into his theology, this pastor seems to have a very limited understanding of how God reveals Himself in the whole of Scripture. He needs a serious encounter with both the whole counsel of Scripture AND historical Theology. 

Are you comfortable with saying what organization this man (I'm assuming this person is male) is ordained with?


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## Herald (Sep 2, 2005)

Ephesians 1:3-6 _ 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. _

The key phrase in this passage is "just as" (GRK: Kathos). In paraphrase, "In the same way that God the Father has blessed us with every spiritual blessing, He has chosen us before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him." What does Paul mean by "just as"? Well, first look at verse 3. How did we receive, "every spiritual blessing"? We receive every spiritual blessing "in Christ." In other words, we receive every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places 
_because_ of Christ. This was the in the grand design (sovereignty) of God the Father. The support for this is in the word "who" (h'mas). This is used as pronoun to refer to God the Father. 

Now, just as (Kathos) God the Father blessed us with every spiritual blessing through (in) Christ; He "chose us in Him before the foundation of the world." This explains 'what' and 'how' He chose us. The reason? "That we should be holy and blameless before Him. " Nowhere does this passage refer to our glorified bodies or the resurrection. It deals with the sovereign choice of God and the intent of God towards those whom He calls. To pull anything else out of this passage is an attempt to use an eisegetical approach to support the Armenian view.

As always...In my humble opinion.

[Edited on 9-3-2005 by BaptistInCrisis]


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## Scot (Sep 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by BrianBowman_
> Are you comfortable with saying what organization this man (I'm assuming this person is male) is ordained with?



He's the Pastor of an Independent Baptist church. He's recently changed his views on eschatology and has come out of the premil/Dispensational camp. He really tries to avoid labels. I think he's still studying through his eschatology but he says he's definately not a dispensationalist. He also says that he's not arminian or a calvinist (I'm sure we've all heard that before).

I really enjoy talking with him. He's one of the few people that I can discuss doctrines in which we disagree without it getting ugly. 

I've heard the arguement before that it is Christ who was elected and we must choose to be "in him" but haven't heard anyone say that adoption = resurrection.


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