# Reformed/Puritan Town Building?



## Coram Deo (Sep 22, 2007)

I thought I would start a thread on this topic...... It started with 



kvanlaan said:


> If only the Amish were a whole lot more Reformed...


----------



## Coram Deo (Sep 22, 2007)

I replied with 



Thunaer said:


> Boy, If only that statement was true....



and 



Thunaer said:


> Hey, How about we start a Reformed Amish Community.......
> 
> We just need to get alot of Reformed people living all around each other... Maybe even start a town Puritan Style......


----------



## Coram Deo (Sep 22, 2007)

Then



Simply_Nikki said:


> I've thought of that, sounds appealing, of course we couldn't completely isolate ourselves with ourselfs, the battle is tiring, but even after we've done all that we can do.. we must continue to stand.


----------



## Coram Deo (Sep 22, 2007)

Then I Said 



Thunaer said:


> Actually, what I was saying could work as long as the Church does not neglect her duty to sent out Missionary Pastors to fulfill the great commission, Go into all the world and baptize, make disciples and teach all I have taught you.... The Puritans did it when they left England for America in order to protect their children from harmful influences...... We would not have to isolate ourselves completely, even the amish live around englishers.. But when you have a mass at a critical level in a given area or town, the mass have more influence and power. The liberals have done demographic wars for years very successfully... We need to reverse this and turn this around. And Reformed people would still witness to those around by how we conduct ourselves and appear to those around and even give the reason for the faith within us. Do not forget our children either....
> 
> The only problem I foresee right now is unlike the Old Puritans that was pretty united on issues except on just a few areas like baptism and polity, almost no two Reformed people are alike.. We need to get our act together first in the church.... Right now we have threats from within from liberals, moderns, postmoderns, etc..... We can not hardly agree on what is modest and what is cultural vs. noncultural... We have disagreements on the Sabbath and even disagreements from those who hold the Sabbath with regards to penology. We have a hard time today defining Morality due to the influx of relativity in the church from the culture. The debates on this board is proof enough for the proof of the disagreements among Reformed believers... I will hold my tongue on the disagreements over the regulative principle and what is and is not permitted in the worship of God. In order for a Reformed community or town to work and be dupicated to other areas we need to get our act together from within before we can even consider such a grand idea that the puritans did over 300 years ago when they came to America, otherwise it would fall apart pretty quickly from bickering and splits from within..... We need a purge from within.....
> 
> ...


----------



## Coram Deo (Sep 22, 2007)

Then



kvanlaan said:


> By the way Michael, I'm all for the Puritan village.


----------



## Coram Deo (Sep 22, 2007)

Finally to now



Thunaer said:


> So where do we begin?


----------



## reformedman (Sep 22, 2007)

very nice dreams. Wish it were true too.


----------



## Kevin (Sep 22, 2007)

Not realistic. I also feel the pull of this dream, however anyone drawn to this would be, by definition, not the type of person suited to the task.

BTW I know of 2 attempts at this and they both failed.

What we have in common is a shared idea, whet the Amish have in common is shared genes.


----------



## Covenant Joel (Sep 22, 2007)

While I sympathize with your desire to get away from the sin and wickedness that surrounds us, I do not see how you can justify such an approach biblically. I hope that I will never come to the point that I form my own society with only people who believe exactly like me. 

I was planning on writing a long post about this, but I think I shall only say a few things. I suppose I'm just as tired of Reformed people sitting on their butts discussing theology and arguing about how we should do things while never doing stuff themselves as I am of those who do a bunch of stuff but never sit down and talk about how and why they should do it. Both are wrong. I accuse you of neither (how could I, I don't even know you?). But all I know is, when I get to the point where I am so frustrated with the sin surrounding me, with the immorality of my boss, with the backstabbing of "friends" and the hurt that broken relationships cause, I say, "Lord Jesus, heal my brokenness with gospel. And make my heart break for the broken around me. Let them see the light. But don't take me out of all of it. Throw me even more in it, keep me pure, and let me apply the gospel to every area of life." I do this terribly. I fail miserably. But I pray that I won't ever exit this sin-infested world in pursuit of a utopian community (even if it's Reformed).


----------



## Coram Deo (Sep 23, 2007)

Why by definition would a person drawn to this not be suited to the task?

Also could you elaborate on the two failed attempts?





Kevin said:


> Not realistic. I also feel the pull of this dream, however anyone drawn to this would be, by definition, not the type of person suited to the task.
> 
> BTW I know of 2 attempts at this and they both failed.
> 
> What we have in common is a shared idea, whet the Amish have in common is shared genes.


----------



## Southern Presbyterian (Sep 23, 2007)

Is this what you have in mind?


----------



## kvanlaan (Sep 23, 2007)

This is a topic I'd _love_ to explore, if only running through it academically. "How to base a village on Reformed Biblical values without being isolationistic about it in 400 posts or less."

What I see though, is the possibility (probability) that things would spiral out of control with extra-biblical regulations, not unlike what I've heard of some of the 'ordnung' of the Amish that are not entirely scriptural, but based on tradition as much as anything. I would love to live in a community something like this at times, but would _not_ want to get a visit from the elders because my wife's headcovering was the wrong color.

There's a Christian couple doing something like this in Indiana already. Here's the website:
Simpler Times Village

It is more simple Americana than a religious circling of the wagons, but the same mentality is there.

I'm also curious to hear more about the two failed attempts...


----------



## Herald (Sep 23, 2007)

*sniff* *sniff* Is that theonomy I smell?


----------



## Pergamum (Sep 23, 2007)

Our vision should not be inward looking, but outward looking.

Instead of grouping together and building a town in the US, why don't we migrate to a needy country and act as group missionaries? Costs are cheaper and this would combat the isolative tendency.



SO...HOWABOUTIT!!!!! I need 30 families to leave for Tunisia next month....or maybe Nepal!


----------



## Puritan Sailor (Sep 23, 2007)

Monasticism is not the way to go. History has shown this over and over. Live out your faith where you are.


----------



## NaphtaliPress (Sep 23, 2007)

Just think how nasty a church split would be in this situation!


----------



## kvanlaan (Sep 23, 2007)

If it results in Monasticism, it's not Christianity. If we deny the Great Commission in how we structure our lives, we've lost the plot.

If this is theonomic/monastic/etc. and to be shunned, why are we on the _PURITAN_Board? We are talking about tearing a page from the church history we supposedly embrace, not building a compound in Utah.



> Our vision should not be inward looking, but outward looking.
> 
> Instead of grouping together and building a town in the US, why don't we migrate to a needy country and act as group missionaries? Costs are cheaper and this would combat the isolative tendency.
> 
> SO...HOWABOUTIT!!!!! I need 30 families to leave for Tunisia next month....or maybe Nepal!



Brother, I love you and your family dearly, but to me, the US is _every bit_ as needy as these two fields. 

Why do we do missions? Because somewhere God is not being given the Glory by His creatures. What is the center of humanistic achievement in the world? The US (and when it is not physically done there, it is propogated by American companies). Giving Him the glory for a touchdown or an Oscar does not count in the tally.

So much achievement, so little appropriate assignation of thanks.

Let's start there, we already know the language and everything!


----------



## Coram Deo (Sep 23, 2007)

I agree that we could not be isolationist.....

I was thinking about what you said this morning.. Just Curious? At basic levels how is the ordnung different then Town, State, or Federal Law Codes? My town happens to have some whacky laws that prevent me from doing things to my own house... The town can even decide what color I can paint my house..... If I paint it a color they did not approve, guess what I can be fined......

I think at basic levels it is not much different then law codes.... Even nonfaith nations have some pretty tight laws "Thinking China". It is something that must always be careful of. The problem with the Amish way is that they do not seperate the sphere's of authority, i.e. The Church Sphere, and the Civil Sphere. They also do not have any sort of appeals for outdated codes that is meaningless today that sit in the Ordnung. This thought as given me a whole new insight into the Ordnung and how it compares to civil codes of town, states, nations, etc..

Such a Reformed community should try to strive for biblical laws based on the bible. I know there will be some gray areas that each community will have to decide on by their conviction to the word of God.

Michael



kvanlaan said:


> This is a topic I'd _love_ to explore, if only running through it academically. "How to base a village on Reformed Biblical values without being isolationistic about it in 400 posts or less."
> 
> What I see though, is the possibility (probability) that things would spiral out of control with extra-biblical regulations, not unlike what I've heard of some of the 'ordnung' of the Amish that are not entirely scriptural, but based on tradition as much as anything. I would love to live in a community something like this at times, but would _not_ want to get a visit from the elders because my wife's headcovering was the wrong color.


----------



## Coram Deo (Sep 23, 2007)

Yes it is..... Sooooooooooooooooooo.... 

I Happen to be theonomic Covenantal PreMillennial..... 




BaptistInCrisis said:


> *sniff* *sniff* Is that theonomy I smell?


----------



## Coram Deo (Sep 23, 2007)

and 

I think history has proven it can work e.g. The Puritans...... We are not talking about Monasticism but if it results in it, it is not christianity.......

Like Kvanlaan said, let's not tear a page from the church history that we embrace......

Michael 



kvanlaan said:


> If it results in Monasticism, it's not Christianity. If we deny the Great Commission in how we structure our lives, we've lost the plot.
> 
> If this is theonomic/monastic/etc. and to be shunned, why are we on the _PURITAN_Board? We are talking about tearing a page from the church history we supposedly embrace, not building a compound in Utah.


----------



## Covenant Joel (Sep 23, 2007)

Pergamum said:


> Our vision should not be inward looking, but outward looking.
> 
> Instead of grouping together and building a town in the US, why don't we migrate to a needy country and act as group missionaries? Costs are cheaper and this would combat the isolative tendency.
> 
> ...


----------



## Puritan Sailor (Sep 23, 2007)

thunaer said:


> and
> 
> I think history has proven it can work e.g. The Puritans...... We are not talking about Monasticism but if it results in it, it is not christianity.......



The Puritans (Seperatists actually) in New England were not as successful as we would like to think. They persecuted Baptists. They oppressed the Native Americans. They allowed slavery. They executed people based upon superstition (i.e. spectoral evidence in criminal trials???). Not exactly the Reformed legacy we are looking for. There has never been a golden age of Reformed society. There will always be a need to continue reformation. The golden age you long for will only come at the end of this age when our Lord returns and consumates the kingdom.


----------



## Pergamum (Sep 23, 2007)

Kvanlaan:

hmmmmmm....


the US is just as needy as other parts of the world? 


?????????????????? 


Needy maybe....but JUST as needy?



Recall the missionries from Afghanistan and stick them in Arkansas...from Saudi to South Carolina......


----------



## Simply_Nikki (Sep 23, 2007)

I think the Amish skip over this passage among others of course :

9I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10( not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13God judges those outside. (1 corinthians 5:9-13)


----------



## kvanlaan (Sep 26, 2007)

> Needy maybe....but JUST as needy?



A man without Christ in the US and a man without Christ in Timbuktu are indeed equally needy.

Pergy, my statement was as such because I do fully believe this. Bob started a thread on false prophets and I commented something about trying to grow a dozen more fingers to plug all the holes in the dike - they are, for the most parts, residents of the US (except for Benny Hinn, he's a more cosmopolitan type.) AND, I hate to say it, but the rubes with the big bucks to expend on their 'best lives now' are almost all gathered in the US/Canada. We have faithful there, yes, but we also have the "Six Flags over Jesus" syndrome in spades! 

Those who live without Christ, yes, we must go forth to fulfill our duty and fulfill the Great COmmission, yes, I agree. BUT there are SO SO SO SO many who live with a shadow of Christ and know not the truth! And they live next door in Pleasantville USA. One need not go into the jungle to find them; simply draw a 150-ft circle around your present location at Walmart (ANY Walmart) and you've got work enough for a lifetime. In Middle America it is likely that all of them will profess Christ to an extent but in the 500 people that you gather before you there, you will have Mormons, JWs, Roman Catholics, etc. etc. etc. ALL of those profess the name of Jesus but none have a saving knowledge of HIM! They are lost, lost, lost. And JUST as needy as the cannibal in Papua New Guinea who is licking his fingers from a fine meal of human flesh. Depravity is depravity.

Do I want to recall anyone from anywhere? No! But we are so concerned about the unsaved abroad that the teeming masses in the US, so famous for its prevelant 'Christianity' are more often than not forgotten. Millions. Upon Millions. Upon Millions. Many of whom will say "did we not cast out demons in your name????" and will get a solemn "_I never knew you_."

Brother, please understand that I am not trying to denigrate those who go abroad to serve. But a lost man is a lost man - one is as needy as the other.


----------



## Reformed Baptist (Sep 26, 2007)

Puritan Sailor said:


> thunaer said:
> 
> 
> > and
> ...



 A big to the separation of church and state. I would recommend to any reader the work "Church, State, and Calvinism" by Isaac Backus. A great Baptist (and Calvinist) who lived at the time of the persecution from state chuches (protestant) and his reasoning and contention for a separation of church and state.


----------



## Pergamum (Sep 26, 2007)

Kvanlaan:

Of course, brother, a lost man is lost. And where there are lost people there are needs.

But access and availability of the Gospel are major factors in trying to decide where to go and how to serve.

Are you then saying that there are no priorities to evangelization? That we should not target certain peoples because we see their needs as greater. For instance, if 10 willing people desired to serve overseas, you would just as likely desire that they go to Australia as Afghanistan?

Starving people can be of two types: (1) truly starving, (2) anorexic.

The American unbeleiver is a spiritual anorexic. He starves despite mountains fo food around him. Never in the history of the world has there been a country in the world with easier access to the Bible.

I believe that we are to focus on the truly starving over against these spiritual anorexics. 

In actuality, there are many, many reformed baptists and reformed of various stripes....enough to saturate the States 4 fold with the true Gospel. Too, there are Bible churches and other sects that have the basic Gospel correct even though the err on more minor points. 

Yes, the US has a Gospel witness in every region. 

The existing churches have more than enough locals to reach their own Jerusalem and Judea, even while prioritizing the uttermost parts.


----------



## kvanlaan (Sep 26, 2007)

> The Puritans (Seperatists actually) in New England were not as successful as we would like to think. They persecuted Baptists. They oppressed the Native Americans. They allowed slavery. They executed people based upon superstition (i.e. spectoral evidence in criminal trials???).



Let's take this line by line - there are two camps on the first part. Persecution of Baptists? Yep. Under the same laws that the Puritans themselves lived by - don't like them, go elsewhere. 

Same as the PB - you believe in Christ but cannot subscribe to the WCF or the 3FU? Play in someone else's sandbox. 

The persecution was indeed horrible, but fell on the Pilgrims as much as on the Baptists. And there was latitude and quarter given other faiths - what of the Quakers who paraded naked through the church services? Not burned alive as we'd like to think they were, just banned. 

The Puritans were the ones that came up with right to a jury trial, due process, etc. in their Document of Liberties. They played no racial superiority card over the natives, but did see themselves as culturally superior (they had the wheel, writing, etc. which the natives did not have.)

And monastic? What of John Elliot (1604-1690); he developed a written language for the Algonquins after learning how to speak it then translated the Bible into that language. I daresay he was about as evangelistic as they come. And Harvard policy towards natives was to welcomed Indian students after only 20 years of operation.

Oppressed Native Americans? To a degree - they were both used by the NA and used the NA BUT there are recorded instances of executions of Englishmen who murdered Native Americans. They were courted by tribes for their firepower; they were not the forward and bloodthirsty angry/greedy white men that secular history loves to portray. They stole no land, they bought it. The colonial gov't punished those who took land, it was rule by law.

Executions based on superstition? Yes, and a shameful departure from Scripture. As was the case in Geneva - 35 killed for witchcraft of a rather vague nature. An old crone whistling a strange tune as she walked through your field, the next day your prize Hereford dies - a witch! Burn her, dunk her, whatever. The Court of Oyer and Terminer was emotional reactionism largely without scriptural basis. Errors of a grievous nature, to be sure. Enough to write off Geneva and the Massechusetts colony? I think not. 

What destroyed the Puritans was theological liberalism. It is the same story that we see today. God's people prosper. The harvest is great. Many join, but new ideas come too. This leads to a decomposition of doctrine. The people falter in their faith as the world has bright and shiny new things to offer. They begin to fall away. The church is a victim of its own success, to a degree. This is perhaps an oversimplification, but the principal is the same.



> Not exactly the Reformed legacy we are looking for. There has never been a golden age of Reformed society. There will always be a need to continue reformation. The golden age you long for will only come at the end of this age when our Lord returns and consumates the kingdom.



Amen to the last part. But let us work to prepare our hearts for His coming, that's all this idea is in aid of.


----------



## kvanlaan (Sep 26, 2007)

> The American unbeleiver is a spiritual anorexic. He starves despite mountains fo food around him. Never in the history of the world has there been a country in the world with easier access to the Bible.



Agreed - which is more pathetic? I see serious depravity in the anorexic... In the end, we are casting our nets because we are commanded to, and because all glory belongs to Him alone. 



> Are you then saying that there are no priorities to evangelization? That we should not target certain peoples because we see their needs as greater. For instance, if 10 willing people desired to serve overseas, you would just as likely desire that they go to Australia as Afghanistan?



I cannot coerce the Holy Spirit. He will lead as He does. But at the end of the day, a soul is a soul, that's all. How can we say that the need is not greater in Australia in His eyes? The outermost reaches are not always the priority. His glory is the priority. Full stop.



> The existing churches have more than enough locals to reach their own Jerusalem and Judea, even while prioritizing the uttermost parts.



True enough. My point is not to stop the flow outward but to remember that the largest English-speaking mission field lies an arm's length away.


----------



## Pergamum (Sep 26, 2007)

Kvanlaan:

Great! Agreed.... let's all start ploughing where the Lord has placed us!


----------



## kvanlaan (Sep 26, 2007)




----------



## LadyFlynt (Sep 26, 2007)

Did not read the whole thread...but I can say this....too many assumptions about the Amish.

They don't live in a separate world. They go to walmart, lowe's, etc. They work with rednecks and puerto ricans on work crews, "own" cell phones, and have a great sense of humour. Can I tell you about the rap playing buggies with glowing runner lights at 3am on Sunday night? 

They are not isolated...just a sub-culture. Something we can be as well. Be honest, hardworking, live your faith, share your faith. Avoid garbage. BTW, I enjoy the Anabaptist stores as well...they enjoy a cheap deal as well as quality...and no "gotta turn that one around" magazines at the checkout counters.


----------



## kvanlaan (Sep 26, 2007)

> They don't live in a separate world. They go to walmart, lowe's, etc. They work with rednecks and puerto ricans on work crews, "own" cell phones, and have a great sense of humour. Can I tell you about the rap playing buggies with glowing runner lights at 3am on Sunday night?



Well, thanks a lot. You just shattered one of my favorite long-held stereotypes. 

I'd love to get the rap playing buggies on video, though!


----------



## kvanlaan (Sep 26, 2007)

Hey, that was #1000!

Time to go to bed...


----------



## Coram Deo (Sep 26, 2007)

Preach it Sista!



LadyFlynt said:


> Did not read the whole thread...but I can say this....too many assumptions about the Amish.
> 
> They don't live in a separate world. They go to walmart, lowe's, etc. They work with rednecks and puerto ricans on work crews, "own" cell phones, and have a great sense of humour. Can I tell you about the rap playing buggies with glowing runner lights at 3am on Sunday night?
> 
> They are not isolated...just a sub-culture. Something we can be as well. Be honest, hardworking, live your faith, share your faith. Avoid garbage. BTW, I enjoy the Anabaptist stores as well...they enjoy a cheap deal as well as quality...and no "gotta turn that one around" magazines at the checkout counters.


----------

