# Deaconesses & Presbytery



## doctorcello (Jun 21, 2008)

I'm looking for advice/counsel. There are some churches in my presbytery (PCA) who have woman deaconesses on their diaconates. What should I as a concientious Teaching Elder DO? Do nothing? Ask my Session to Overture the presbytery? If so, what to say in the overture? Then if the presbytery rejects the overture, then what to do? Is this the battlefield to die on? Should I just see that my own congregation toes the line and ignore the other churches? I'm perplexed.


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## toddpedlar (Jun 21, 2008)

I assume these are of the "commissioned, but not ordained" variety? I'm glad I'm not in your shoes... these churches are, I'm sure, convinced of their not being in technical violation of the BCO - and if they're the majority in your presbytery...


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## swilson (Jun 21, 2008)

Tough one.
My personal two cents is this: if they are just given the title, because they serve....I wouldn't make a big deal over this. If it is an office that in some way has dominion over men - take up thy sword, brother.


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## toddpedlar (Jun 21, 2008)

swilson said:


> Tough one.
> My personal two cents is this: if they are just given the title, because they serve....I wouldn't make a big deal over this. If it is an office that in some way has dominion over men - take up thy sword, brother.



ruling over men is not the ONLY reason women should be rejected as deacons. But then we've covered that ground already. In either case, the churches ordaining (or commissioning) the women as deacons, having them serve openly on the "diaconate" (just as they do at Redeemer in NYC), are flatly circumventing the BCO in spirit and/or in letter and should be pressed to explain themselves in the appropriate church court.


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## Barnpreacher (Jun 21, 2008)

I thought this was done at Ryken's church (Tenth Presbyterian) as well???


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## toddpedlar (Jun 21, 2008)

Barnpreacher said:


> I thought this was done at Ryken's church (Tenth Presbyterian) as well???



I wasn't sure they were still ordaining deaconesses, but in any case the practice of doing so at that church (because it came in as an RPCES church at the outset) was allowed - the practice was grandmothered, in other words.


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## jfschultz (Jun 22, 2008)

Yes, this is a tough one. But in a sense it is more than just ordaining women as deacons in that it reflects on one's view of Scriptural authority.

When the Apostles asked for the selection of deacons in Acts 6, they specified men of good repute. Paul sets this forward as the standard in I Timothy. When one takes the examples of what happened as also normative, you have created a contradiction in the Bible!

I was appalled when I heard Dr. DeWitt, a former RTS professor, cite example as why Second Presbyterian in Memphis should change their way and begin to ordain women as deacons when they voted on the issue. I was under the impression that the problem of taking example as setting a norm contrary to teaching was a topic in Theology 101!

Perhaps my posting in the other thread about adultery and murder was a bit extreme, but it is the logical conclusion of taking example as setting a norm against teaching.


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## wsw201 (Jun 23, 2008)

doctorcello said:


> I'm looking for advice/counsel. There are some churches in my presbytery (PCA) who have woman deaconesses on their diaconates. What should I as a concientious Teaching Elder DO? Do nothing? Ask my Session to Overture the presbytery? If so, what to say in the overture? Then if the presbytery rejects the overture, then what to do? Is this the battlefield to die on? Should I just see that my own congregation toes the line and ignore the other churches? I'm perplexed.



I would highly recommend you talk to the Session and submit charges against that church. By simply ignoring it and taking the "turtle" position is no answer. This deaconess stuff is infecting the church of which you are apart of. If you don't stand up and be counted you will find this infection spreading into your congregation.


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## TimV (Jun 23, 2008)

> I would highly recommend you talk to the Session and submit charges against that church.



First find out if they are "unordained" Deacons. The PCA doesn't seem to want to take that one on yet, for fear of loosing that 20% who like Barth, Wright, Creation account metaphorism, feminism etc..

If they are ordaining women, a simple written complaint to the Session will stop that in a couple weeks, and those women already ordained will be required to either step down, be put under counseling or get put into that Tim Keller joke of a class called Unordained Deacons. Do it carefully though, and get opinions from people here on this board. Cultivate a relationship with some experienced men who you can contact privately. Some of those liberal PCA Elders are passionate in the extreme, and when I complained about ordaining Baptists and Arminians I got my way, but also got a sermon preached against me calling me demon possessed.


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## Romans922 (Jun 23, 2008)

doctorcello said:


> I'm looking for advice/counsel. There are some churches in my presbytery (PCA) who have woman deaconesses on their diaconates. What should I as a concientious Teaching Elder DO? Do nothing? Ask my Session to Overture the presbytery? If so, what to say in the overture? Then if the presbytery rejects the overture, then what to do? Is this the battlefield to die on? Should I just see that my own congregation toes the line and ignore the other churches? I'm perplexed.



You should overture the Presbytery because that is the sessions role. Research a little first, then write up an overture.

Talk to Fred Greco on how to overture or what the overture should say (He is on the Puritanboard). 


The BCO is clear and churches in your presbytery are Clearly breaking it. Which is contrary to their vows to uphold it.


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## ahavah7 (Jun 23, 2008)

I too am a conflicted on what to do about it. It seems we have three options:

1) Ignore it.
2) Craft amendment(s) to the BCO to make it more explicit.
3) Make a complaint (BCO 43) to the respective Session and then to Presbytery if the Session disagrees with the complaint.

I think 1) is no good. 

Number 2 above has some merit. It will at least initiate a discussion in your Presbytery about the merits of women as deacons and could be passed and sent to GA. The downside is that the BCO is already clear, so it's kind of difficult to decide where to amend the BCO to make it say what it already says.

I would keep these rules in mind when crafting ammendments. 
First, the simpler thae actual ammendment the better. The whereas statements can be as complicated as you like, but verbose and confusing ammendments will alone cause some to vote against it.
Second, If you want to make a change to more than one part of the BCO, then I would make those seperate overtures. If you lump them together, then you may get folks who vote against it because they find one part of the ammendment objectionable. The more seperate ammendments you have in single overture, the more negative votes might accumulate in this way.
Third, I would be careful which part of the BCO you ammend. For example, if you wanted to make a change to the BCO's definition of deacon, then put that in Chapter 9 or 7 which are purely definitional Chapters. If you wanted to make a change to the process of appointing deacons, then Chapter 24 is probably best. Some folks will vote against an ammendment if violates the current organization of the BCO.

Initailly, I thought option 3) might be the more contentious route to take and therefore less adviseable. However, Chapter 43 deals only with overturning the decision of one of the lower courts of the church. Chapter 43 in no way leads to charges or a case of process, so it's really not that contentious. The more I think about it, the more I see this option as being the best option. With this option, the problem could be fixed at Presbytery (or even at the Session level). If the Presbytery could not come to a general consensus, then they could reference (BCO 41) to GA. Whatsmore, if your Presbytery did not rule in your favor, you could still craft an overture for the next meeting of Presbytery.


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## Stephen (Jun 23, 2008)

toddpedlar said:


> Barnpreacher said:
> 
> 
> > I thought this was done at Ryken's church (Tenth Presbyterian) as well???
> ...



10th does not ordain deaconesses but commissions them.


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## AV1611 (Jun 23, 2008)

jfschultz said:


> When the Apostles asked for the selection of deacons in Acts 6, they specified men of good repute.



See this.


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## Stephen (Jun 28, 2008)

Romans922 said:


> doctorcello said:
> 
> 
> > I'm looking for advice/counsel. There are some churches in my presbytery (PCA) who have woman deaconesses on their diaconates. What should I as a concientious Teaching Elder DO? Do nothing? Ask my Session to Overture the presbytery? If so, what to say in the overture? Then if the presbytery rejects the overture, then what to do? Is this the battlefield to die on? Should I just see that my own congregation toes the line and ignore the other churches? I'm perplexed.
> ...



What about congregations in an entire presbytery that no longer ordain men to the diaconate? Are they violating the standards also?


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## doctorcello (Jun 28, 2008)

*Funny false alarm*

Well, after contacting one church's pastor personally, I found out that their female deacons really aren't. Just a couple of crazy typos on their website. Mary is actually a gentleman: "Marty," and Vanna is actually a Vietnamese man Van Na. I'm glad I took my time and investigated a bit.


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## swilson (Jul 12, 2008)

So this whole thread was a false alarm?


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## doctorcello (Jul 13, 2008)

*For one church it was a false alarm*

For another church, still wondering what to do, and still gathering information. Whatever happens, I want to be kind, loving, correct; but careful and not stupid!


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