# Important covenant concepts abandoned by some Reformed Bapti



## Ianterrell (Jun 2, 2004)

I have found that some Reformed Baptists are against the idea of a Covenant of Works or a Covenant of Grace. They emphasize &quot;covenants&quot; rather than acknowledge an overarching Covenant of Works/Grace distinction. It seems that this would have serious implications to their soteriology! I am aware that there are Baptists who are more inclined towards CT than others, so I am interested in your opinions on this as well. 

First I'm interested to see what others who are more intimately involved in the Reformed Baptist denomination think of these concepts generally and how they are regarded in the RB denomination.

Secondly, in Covenant Theology Christ fulfills the Covenant of Works for believers in two senses. In his death by paying the debt of their sins, and then in his life procuring for them the reward of the Covenant of Works which was eternal life. What are some of the issues that arrive when these covenant concepts are disregarded?

[Edited on 6-3-2004 by Ianterrell]


----------



## Me Died Blue (Jun 2, 2004)

[quote:361357b456][i:361357b456]Originally posted by Ianterrell[/i:361357b456]
Secondly, iun Covenant Theology Christ fulfills the Covenant of Works for believers in two senses. In his death by paying the debt of their sins, and then in his life procuring for them the reward of the Covenant of Works which was eternal life. What are some of the issues that arrive when these covenant concepts are disregarded? [/quote:361357b456]

When the basic purpose of Christ's death being the fulfillment of the COW for us is compromised, it seems to me that the very nature of the Cross and Christ's propitiation on our behalf for God falls apart. The NCT movement is a perfect example of the cluttered mess that can result from losing a grip on that basic covenantal distinction. If some RB's are indeed abandoning the COW/COG distinction as you say, I agree with you that it will soon begin to have major implicatinos for their soteriological thought, if it continues down the road of its logical progression. Eventually it may even lead to the point of some RB's becoming like the Assemblies of God that I've been raised in, in that their response would be, &quot;What does 'covenant of works' mean?&quot;

In Christ,

Chris


----------



## Dan.... (Jun 2, 2004)

It seems to me that one of the problems that has arisen with the term &quot;Reformed Baptist&quot; is that it seems to have developed to encompass too broad a definition. It seems that almost every brand of Calvinistic Baptist is calling themselves &quot;reformed baptist&quot;.

The Association of Reformed Baptist Churches Of America (A.R.B.C.A.) requires that all member churches fully subscribe to the 1689 London Confession. You will not find any church within the Association teaching NCT, as such teachings are clearly contrary to the 1689 Confession.


----------



## Me Died Blue (Jun 2, 2004)

I definitely know what you mean as far as the problem of terms getting too broad, Dan. I've experienced that sometimes in that the very term &quot;Reformed&quot; has taken on such a broad meaning. Dispensationals like MacArthur, Auburns like Wilson, NCT advocates, and people like John Frame all take that same label, and it can get really frustrating sometimes. In light of that, I want to make it clear that my comments above were certainly not meant toward all &quot;RB's&quot;, and I know you didn't take it that way, either.

In Christ,

Chris


----------



## VanVos (Jun 2, 2004)

Although I am a credobaptist I would agree that those who deny the cov of works will lose the law and gospel distinction. But it's not just the reformed baptist who are doing this, presbyterians who are embracing NPism are also distorting the law and gospel hermeneutic. 

VanVos

[Edited on 6-2-2004 by VanVos]


----------



## Ianterrell (Jun 2, 2004)

Good point VanVos.


----------



## Me Died Blue (Jun 2, 2004)

Indeed. In fact, I think just a glance at church history within Reformed Christendom will reveal that that is what will always start to happen sooner or later when confessionalism starts to be compromised on - whether it's the LBCF or the WCF, the root of cluttered, unorthodox perspectives on key issues can almost always be traced to a slip in confessional adherence standards. And I agree that unfortunately, that problem is becoming equally mainstream in both Presbyterian and Reformed Baptist circles.

In Christ,

Chris


----------



## JonathonHunt (Jun 3, 2004)

This is all sadly true. A leading baptist pastor here in the UK remarked that not only do some 'reformed' baptists not understand the CT/paedo position, they have no idea of their own position! Thinking that CT is ALL wrong, they then manage to lose the COW/COG distinction.

It stems from lack of leadership in the pulpit and lack of interest in the pew, in my opinion. People are so IGNORANT these days. I know baptists who don't even know that there is more than one eschatological view! And I don't mean young people - I was staggered to discover premil and postmil at about age 14... but some people are in their 40s and have never considered anything at all.

I know that too much learning can be a very bad thing and can obstruct christian living and christian service, but... come on, there has to be a certain hunger after knowledge, even in terms of basic outlines, or am I just an info-freak???


----------



## Ianterrell (Jun 3, 2004)

Jonathan you are no info freak. The church is just stubbornly anti-intellectual, generally speaking. No Christian ever taught me anything about Church History. The only mention made of people outside our train of thought (which was on its way to a wreck) it was a passing comment, nothing more.


----------



## JonathonHunt (Jun 3, 2004)

Ian

It just reminds me how privileged we here on the boards are. We have our disagreements, we ascribe to two differing confessions... but how blessed we are with all that our eyes are open to. Praise the Lord!


----------



## Ianterrell (Jun 3, 2004)

and


----------



## Me Died Blue (Jun 3, 2004)

[quote:3b11292801][i:3b11292801]Originally posted by JonathanHunt[/i:3b11292801]
I know baptists who don't even know that there is more than one eschatological view![/quote:3b11292801]

Actually, one of the pastors at my church told me that, contrary to most of the denomination, his personal eschatological belief was [i:3b11292801]Postmillennial[/i:3b11292801]. I said, &quot;So you believe God is going to 'Christianize' the world before His return?&quot; He responded by saying, &quot;No, just that Christ isn't going to return until [i:3b11292801]after[/i:3b11292801] the tribulation.&quot;

Sometimes you just wonder.

In Christ,

Chris


----------



## Ianterrell (Jun 3, 2004)

[quote:0a06eb93b7][i:0a06eb93b7]Originally posted by Me Died Blue[/i:0a06eb93b7]


[quote:0a06eb93b7][i:0a06eb93b7]Originally posted by JonathanHunt[/i:0a06eb93b7]
I know baptists who don't even know that there is more than one eschatological view![/quote:0a06eb93b7]

Actually, one of the pastors at my church told me that, contrary to most of the denomination, his personal eschatological belief was [i:0a06eb93b7]Postmillennial[/i:0a06eb93b7]. I said, &quot;So you believe God is going to 'Christianize' the world before His return?&quot; He responded by saying, &quot;No, just that Christ isn't going to return until [i:0a06eb93b7]after[/i:0a06eb93b7] the tribulation.&quot;

Sometimes you just wonder.

In Christ,

Chris [/quote:0a06eb93b7]

Oh my!


----------



## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 8, 2004)

Most people here at school are 'pan'millenial.. they think everything will just 'pan itself out' and they have no idea how, nor do they think about it much.


----------



## fredtgreco (Jul 8, 2004)

[quote:c5a835117d][i:c5a835117d]Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia[/i:c5a835117d]
Most people here at school are 'pan'millenial.. they think everything will just 'pan itself out' and they have no idea how, nor do they think about it much.  [/quote:c5a835117d]

Word to the wise for anyone thinking of using this quip in a presbytery or theological exam - it is on thing not to be dogmatic, another to be wilfully and &quot;cutely&quot; ignorant. Saying this in my exams will guarantee you about 20 minutes of grilling on eschatology and related matters.

 

[Edited on 7-8-2004 by fredtgreco]


----------



## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 8, 2004)

Yeah, I'd never use that phrase.. even though Eschatology is probably last on my list of importance in studies, I'm still knowledgable of it, and have a stance on it.


----------



## FrozenChosen (Jul 8, 2004)

I used to be like &quot;well it doesn't really matter&quot; just like a pan-millenialist. Then I was in my sisters room, flipped through &lt;i&gt;Now That's a Good Question!&lt;/i&gt; by R.C. Sproul. As Calvin would say, it was luck that I ended up on the eschatology page. Sproul, by means of his book, scolded me for that opinion.

Yipes!


----------

