# What day was hell created?



## earl40 (Sep 19, 2013)

Just thinking out loud for a second. If The Lord looked over _all_ His creation and declared it good how did He look over hell and the fallen angels and call them good? "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day."

I am speculating that God was only declaring part of his creation "very good" and that outside the garden evil lurked.


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## sevenzedek (Sep 19, 2013)

If "good" refers to all he made in six days, then maybe hell was not made in those six days. However, from God's perspective, wouldn't hell be a good thing? When were the angels created? I have always been of the mind that the angels were not created in the six days of creation because the Creation of the angels is not mentioned in Genesis 1. I do not think the Scriptures say when hell was created.


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## sevenzedek (Sep 19, 2013)

If "good" refers to all he made in six days, then maybe hell was not made in those six days. However, from God's perspective, wouldn't hell be a good thing? When were the angels created? I have always been of the mind that the angels were not created in the six days of creation because the Creation of the angels is not mentioned in Genesis 1. I do not think the Scriptures say when hell was created.


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## sevenzedek (Sep 19, 2013)

> Thursday.



From where did you learn that; ORU?


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## OttoNeubauer (Sep 19, 2013)

Day two, because it is the only day where the text does not say “And God saw that it was good.”

Moses is very precise in his literary form otherwise (see the parallelism between days one and four, days two and five, and days three and six, as well as his use in 1:16 of the terms “greater light” and “lesser light” instead of the typical Hebrew words “sun” and “moon”, which were homonyms for foreign gods), so the omission of “And God saw that it was good” on day two must be intentional, to make a theological point that the separation of the waters above from the waters below was not entirely good.

My limited understanding of Hebrew cosmology is that they viewed the ocean as chaotic, disordered and evil. Isaiah, Job and two Psalms describe Leviathan as a serpent in the sea whose head is crushed by “God my King” who is “working salvation in the midst of the earth”. Sounds familiar, right? My understanding is that Leviathan is the serpent of Genesis 3, which dwells in the “waters below” created in Genesis 1:7, which is why that day is not found by God to be good.


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## Bill The Baptist (Sep 19, 2013)

> sevenzedek said:
> 
> 
> > > Thursday.
> ...



In light of Josh's collective wisdom that has been shared over the years, perhaps we could talk ORU into giving him an honorary Doctor of Sacred Letters, then he could be invited to one of those exciting prophecy conferences!


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## Peairtach (Sep 19, 2013)

earl40 said:


> Just thinking out loud for a second. If The Lord looked over _all_ His creation and declared it good how did He look over hell and the fallen angels and call them good? "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day."
> 
> I am speculating that God was only declaring part of his creation "very good" and that outside the garden evil lurked.



I think the Lord is speaking of the natural creation there, not the Heaven of Heavens (God's Heaven), the angels, and Hell. The first verse of the Bible may include the creation of God's Heaven, with the angels, along with the unformed and unfilled Earth, and the unformed and unfilled universe. Then in the Six Days, the focus is exclusively on the natural world.

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## MarieP (Sep 19, 2013)

The day of, or the day after, the Fall? Maybe Hell wasn't actually created as Hell- maybe it becomes Hell as God removes all grace and mercy from the presence of the damned? Just as the final abode of the righteous isn't yet manifest.

Maybe, when the universe is purified by fire, Hell will continue to blaze even after the rest is purified? Just a speculation!


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## BibleCyst (Sep 19, 2013)

OttoNeubauer said:


> Day two, because it is the only day where the text does not say “And God saw that it was good.”
> 
> Moses is very precise in his literary form otherwise (see the parallelism between days one and four, days two and five, and days three and six, as well as his use in 1:16 of the terms “greater light” and “lesser light” instead of the typical Hebrew words “sun” and “moon”, which were homonyms for foreign gods), so the omission of “And God saw that it was good” on day two must be intentional, to make a theological point that the separation of the waters above from the waters below was not entirely good.
> 
> My limited understanding of Hebrew cosmology is that they viewed the ocean as chaotic, disordered and evil. Isaiah, Job and two Psalms describe Leviathan as a serpent in the sea whose head is crushed by “God my King” who is “working salvation in the midst of the earth”. Sounds familiar, right? My understanding is that Leviathan is the serpent of Genesis 3, which dwells in the “waters below” created in Genesis 1:7, which is why that day is not found by God to be good.



This is very interesting. Anybody care to elaborate further? Any disagreements?


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## SinnerSavedByChrist (Sep 19, 2013)

- interesting hypothesis. I've never come across this reading! But it fits in with the Hebrew understanding of the chaotic sea + Revelations makes reference to the sea giving up the dead...


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## earl40 (Sep 19, 2013)

sevenzedek said:


> If "good" refers to all he made in six days, then maybe hell was not made in those six days. However, from God's perspective, wouldn't hell be a good thing? When were the angels created? I have always been of the mind that the angels were not created in the six days of creation because the Creation of the angels is not mentioned in Genesis 1. I do not think the Scriptures say when hell was created.



I have always assumed that angels are "in time" and thus were created in the "space" of God's creation. Also scripture teaches God prepared hell which is a physical place because we all know their is a physical resurrection of the "quick and the dead" and the dead along with satan's minions will occupy this place in space and time forever.

Now what prompted my thoughts is that if one assumes that God created ALL creatures from "the beginning" there was a day He created angels and I have a "feeling" based on the reading of scripture "serpent of old" that the fall of satan happened a long time before Adam.


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## earl40 (Sep 19, 2013)

> Thursday.



One vote for the 5th day.


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## earl40 (Sep 19, 2013)

Peairtach said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> > Just thinking out loud for a second. If The Lord looked over _all_ His creation and declared it good how did He look over hell and the fallen angels and call them good? "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day."
> ...



I wonder if heaven being plural means anything in Gen 1? I strongly suspect it is so to represent all of His creation including angels.


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## Pergamum (Sep 20, 2013)

If God created hell prior to the fall of man, this would seem troublesome?

What gap of time existed between the fall of the angels and the fall of man? 

It would seem less problematic to see the Fall as one Big Fall rather than a first fall (angels) and a second fall (man).


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## BarryR (Sep 20, 2013)

Pergamum said:


> If God created hell prior to the fall of man, this would seem troublesome?


 Why would it be troublesome? 

Did God not decree that there would be a place called hell? 

WCF is helpful as always, "3.1 God from all eternity did by the most and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."


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## Peairtach (Sep 20, 2013)

Pergamum said:


> If God created hell prior to the fall of man, this would seem troublesome?
> 
> What gap of time existed between the fall of the angels and the fall of man?
> 
> It would seem less problematic to see the Fall as one Big Fall rather than a first fall (angels) and a second fall (man).



I don't see it as troublesome. Our Lord says that Hell was originally prepared for the Devil and his angels.

I'm open to the Heavens, Earth and angels being created, and then there being a "gap" before God forms and fills the natural world on the six days. The silence on God creating His Heaven, or angels, or Hell, on the Six Days ties in with this.

Exodus 20 saying that God made the Heaven and Earth and everything in them on Six Days, may be an example of synecdoche.

When we look at the more detailed Genesis 1, there is room for the creation of angels, the Heaven of Heavens, the Universe, the Earth, and then the Fall and Hell, at the very beginning, before the forming and filling of the natural world, and creation of Man, as God's answer to the fall of the angels.

God had a solution prepared to the Satanic rebellion. The Earth as the abode of Man, ultimately the Theanthropos, was ready to be formed and filled, and the natural world as a blank canvas was created at the same time as the Heaven of Heavens and the angels I.e. the very beginning, Genesis 1:1.

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## Jack K (Sep 20, 2013)

I'm with Richard. We have no certainty that hell is a part of the natural world and therefore do not know that it necessarily is something created as part of the six days.




OttoNeubauer said:


> Day two, because it is the only day where the text does not say “And God saw that it was good.”



That's an interesting theory, but I can't quite buy it. What do you do with Genesis 1:31, where God seems to be looking back at all six days ("all that he had made") and declares it all "very good"?


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## Southern Presbyterian (Sep 20, 2013)

Time to trot out my favorite verse:

Deuteronomy 29:29

"The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law."

This is obviously a secret thing.


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## JimmyH (Sep 20, 2013)

Dr H Wayne House on Janet Parshall's 'In the Market' (Moody Radio) discusses this on last nights show. Can be heard here ;

Moody Radio Player


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## Elimelek (Sep 20, 2013)

Dear All

I find this question awkward. If the Bible doesn't give an answer then it is not important, definitely not to your salvation. 

If you want to argue from Hebrew or Canaanite cosmology of cosmogony you might say that it existed before God created the universe which would very much convey the same idea as Prof. Gary Rendsburg has, if he says that the writer of Genesis 1 wanted to show that nothing God had made was evil as opposed to the initial chaos that is described by four elements present with the Spirit/wind of God at the beginning of creation. The endurance of chaos is then the continuation of evil, the creation of order is the beginning of what is good. The chaos waters in Genesis 1 is only separated on the second day, so chaos still persisted everywhere, except in the vault, firmament. Rember prof. Rendsburg writes as a Jewish religious scholar and his view is not necessary correct. It just illustrates how careful we must be in accepting that hell was created on the second day, it is pure speculation.

Whichever way you want to approach creation, hell was not important enough to be "created" or at least mentioned. It is also interesting to me that it will not be present in God's new creation as written in Revelation 20:14. (Except is you think that Hades is another place and that the lake of fire is hell.) 

I think a more pressing problem is to understand what the Bible says about hell.

Kind regards


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## earl40 (Sep 20, 2013)

Southern Presbyterian said:


> Time to trot out my favorite verse:
> 
> Deuteronomy 29:29
> 
> ...



This morning I almost deleted my musings because of what you wrote, till I read on the conversation that followed.

Speculating _from scripture_ if satan is part of the six days of creation in Genesis can shape a view on many issues In my most humble opinion. If he was created on Monday, Tuesday, or Thursday as Josh conveyed may be irevalvant. Though the question of when is important in that it can shape many beliefs on how Genesis is read.


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## earl40 (Sep 20, 2013)

> Porlottaday



?


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## earl40 (Sep 20, 2013)

> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> > > Porlottaday
> ...



Would that be the eighth day? Seriously though I take it you may believe that satan was created in one of the six days, right? If so that "serpent of old" has only been around 6-10,000 years if one holds to YEC. So if you can understand the point that the original post I did has thelogical implications and not the ol "angels on the head of a pin".


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## Southern Presbyterian (Sep 20, 2013)

Well, as for me, once I'm confident that I have all the things that are clearly revealed and those that "by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture" settled (i.e. understood and in perfect compliance in my life) I'll come back around to some of the speculative things.


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## sevenzedek (Sep 20, 2013)

Southern Presbyterian said:


> Time to trot out my favorite verse:
> 
> Deuteronomy 29:29
> 
> ...



That is one of my favorite verses as well, because when the bible does not appear to say something about a particular topic, I can just say, "I don't know."


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## earl40 (Sep 20, 2013)

Southern Presbyterian said:


> Well, as for me, once I'm confident that I have all the things that are clearly revealed and those that "by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture" settled (i.e. understood and in perfect compliance in my life) I'll come back around to some of the speculative things.



I hear you.  Though I will suppose you read Gen. from a paticular view point that informs your view how the age of the earth is, approximatly. I simply am trying to point out that the matter, or stuff, the earth is made of may be as old as satan (that serpent of OLD) and I am not speaking of 6-10,000 years old.


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## earl40 (Sep 20, 2013)

> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> > > earl40 said:
> ...



Though I would assume you believe satan is within time?


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## Fogetaboutit (Sep 20, 2013)

I believe we can confidently say that it was created within the first six days. Hell is a place since it hosts created beings. Everything was created within the six days of creation, this include hell.


> WCF
> 
> Chapter IV
> Of Creation
> ...


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## Alan D. Strange (Sep 20, 2013)

Time and space is a creation of God and only God Himself, as Joshua noted, is supra-temporal and spatial. 

The assumption that you seem to make, Earl, is that everything created (which would include the angels) is accounted for in the six days of creation. But as Richard and others have noted, it simply is not. The Bible records for us the creation of the natural world and does not tell us directly, certainly within the Genesis 1-2 account, about the creation of angels, the rebellion of Lucifer, the casting out of the angels (though we may it infer it in a general way). Other places reference or arguably reference that, but we are nowhere given the intelligence to tell us where it fits within the schema of the six days. It's simply nowhere there. 

Since we can't locate in the six days when the angels were created and Lucifer fell, it's even more far-fetched to ask about the creation of hell. Here's a good rule of thumb: if a Protestant Scholastic like Turretin does not raise the question, perhaps it is purely speculative, as opposed to scripturally speculative. He does not raise the question of "when was hell created" though he does raise the question of when were angels created and answers it thusly: "The silence of Moses [respecting the question "when precisely were the angels created?] arose from his design to weave a history of the church and to trace its origin from the beginning of the world. Thus he considered it sufficient to delineate the origin of the world from which the church took its rise, speaking now and then also of angels (as the nature of his purpose in adorning the history of the church demanded). The same is true in the histories of the kingdoms when mention is not always made of the origin of neighboring kingdoms" (Seventh Topic, Q.I, IX; v. 1, p. 541, P&R). 

Peace,
Alan


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## JimmyH (Sep 20, 2013)

In the aforementioned radio presentation Dr H Wayne House points out that everything that isn't God was created by Him, and that Satan makes his first appearance in Genesis 2.

I have always surmised that as the Son was with the Father from before the foundation of the world, angels were probably created prior to this universe. Dr Donald Gray Barnhouse said If I recall correctly that he thought the reason the world as we know it wasn't perfect, geologically speaking, was because of the battle that ensued when Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven. Thus the resultant chaos.


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## Fogetaboutit (Sep 20, 2013)

This question is a bit off topic but is there any evidence that Satan rebelled within the creation week? Do we have any reason to believe so? I assumed that it happened after the creation week.




Alan D. Strange said:


> The assumption that you seem to make, Earl, is that everything created (which would include the angels) is accounted for in the six days of creation. But as Richard and others have noted, it simply is not.



Wouldn't this view go against the WCF since it specifically mention all thing visible "and invisible" was created in the creation week. If the Heaven was created on the first day how could anything be created prior to the first day? Where would the angels dwell? they are finite beings.


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## earl40 (Sep 20, 2013)

Alan D. Strange said:


> Time and space is a creation of God and only God Himself, as Joshua noted, is supra-temporal and spatial.
> 
> The assumption that you seem to make, Earl, is that everything created (which would include the angels) is accounted for in the six days of creation. But as Richard and others have noted, it simply is not.



I believe God is indeed the only supra-temporal and supra-spatial being and I assume that the angels were created in time and space even though they are spirits. Now you can correct me if I am wrong, but if angels were indeed created in time and Genesis appears to imply God created time when He created the "heavens and earth" are you saying it Genesis 1 1-2 is not part of the first day? If not I can see where the gap theory may be a possibly correct and the stuff that makes up our universe may be billions of years old.

Of course if the angels can transcend time we now have other beings beside The Lord which are supra temporal. This I reject and can say almost dogmatically that the angels were created between Gen 1:1-31. So in your opinion is Gen 1:1-2 part of the first day?


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## Peairtach (Sep 20, 2013)

JimmyH said:


> In the aforementioned radio presentation Dr H Wayne House points out that everything that isn't God was created by Him, and that Satan makes his first appearance in Genesis 2.
> 
> I have always surmised that as the Son was with the Father from before the foundation of the world, angels were probably created prior to this universe. Dr Donald Gray Barnhouse said If I recall correctly that he thought the reason the world as we know it wasn't perfect, geologically speaking, was because of the battle that ensued when Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven. Thus the resultant chaos.



That's the "traditional" Gap Theory, as per the Schofield Bible and others. I don't see any evidence that a former creation was brought to chaos by the fall of Satan. Why would that be the case?

We're speculating at the edge of revelation, but I've always believed that the angels and God's Heaven were created before the Six Days, and Satan and the angels rebelled and fell before then. Christ was the answer to that, and that involved the Earth.

We're speculating at the edge of revelation, but I tend to think that heavenly and earthly time are co-ordinate, because of the ascension and session of Christ. Prior to AD 33 or possibly AD 30, Christ's human nature was not present there. Since then it has been. Thus to speak of the creation of God's Heaven,the creation of the angels, and the fall of the angels happening prior to the Six Days, rather than somehow being fitted in during them, when they are not even mentioned, makes sense.


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## earl40 (Sep 20, 2013)

Fogetaboutit said:


> Wouldn't this view go against the WCF since it specifically mention all thing visible "and invisible" was created in the creation week. If the Heaven was created on the first day how could anything be created prior to the first day? Where would the angels dwell? they are finite beings.



Good point. I think the WCF included Gen 1:1-2 within the first day.


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## Fogetaboutit (Sep 20, 2013)

Peairtach said:


> I've always believed that the angels and God's Heaven were created before the Six Days, and Satan and the angels rebelled and fell before then.



So you believe there was creation prior to the "beginning" in Genesis 1:1?


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## Peairtach (Sep 20, 2013)

Fogetaboutit said:


> Peairtach said:
> 
> 
> > I've always believed that the angels and God's Heaven were created before the Six Days, and Satan and the angels rebelled and fell before then.
> ...



No. But the beginning was prior to the filling and forming of the Earth and visible cosmos on the Six Days.



> Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding............................When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:4 and 7)



It looks like the angels were already created when God started His work of forming and filling the Earth, and the good angels rejoiced in God's wonderful work, no doubt particularly the pinnacle of His creation, Man.


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## earl40 (Sep 20, 2013)

Peairtach said:


> Fogetaboutit said:
> 
> 
> > Peairtach said:
> ...



Great references Richard. Do we need to change our profile now with an exception?

WCF

Chapter IV
Of Creation

I. It pleased God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost,[1] for the manifestation of the glory of His eternal power, wisdom, and goodness,[2] in the beginning, to create, or make of nothing, the world, and all things therein whether visible or invisible, in the space of six days; and all very good.[3]


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## Peairtach (Sep 20, 2013)

Fogetaboutit said:


> This question is a bit off topic but is there any evidence that Satan rebelled within the creation week? Do we have any reason to believe so? I assumed that it happened after the creation week.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The divines may have been referring to all things visible and invisible in the natural world, and all such things covered by the creation week (?) The section says nothing to the question of whether or not e.g. God's Heaven was created on any of the Six Days.


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## earl40 (Sep 20, 2013)

Peairtach said:


> Fogetaboutit said:
> 
> 
> > This question is a bit off topic but is there any evidence that Satan rebelled within the creation week? Do we have any reason to believe so? I assumed that it happened after the creation week.
> ...



Maybe, maybe not.


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## Alan D. Strange (Sep 20, 2013)

Brothers:

By "accounted for," I mean simply we are not told when the angels were created so we can have no way of knowing. I, of course, do not subscribe to any sort of Scofieldian gap theory, obviously. 

As for specific questions: I would understand Genesis 1:1-2 to be describing that primordial creation, the organization of which the following verses describe. I do see that as part of the first day. But we have no clue as to to when the angelic beings were made. None. It is apparently not the interest of Moses in the divinely-inspired narrative. As for the angels needing "a place," I agree that they are finite but I do not agree that they are in any sense extended in space: they are incorporeal, spirits who do not have a body, and thus take up no space.

Peace,
Alan


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## Fogetaboutit (Sep 20, 2013)

Thanks for the clarification, maybe I just don't understand but how can angels not be limited by "space" without being omniscient? I understand that they are not physical but how can they exist outside of space? Wouldn't that mean that they are part of God?


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## Fogetaboutit (Sep 20, 2013)

Peairtach said:


> Fogetaboutit said:
> 
> 
> > This question is a bit off topic but is there any evidence that Satan rebelled within the creation week? Do we have any reason to believe so? I assumed that it happened after the creation week.
> ...



What is God's heaven? Does God need a place to dwell in? How can any Heaven contain an infinite God? From my understanding all Heaven(s) were created in the creation week, I never heard of anything being eternal other than God.


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## Alan D. Strange (Sep 20, 2013)

Etienne:

Perhaps you mean "omnipresent."

Something that is not physical, that is to say, spiritual, is not extended in space. To be extended in space requires physicality. This is not to say that angels are by any means omnipresent. Only God is. 

Some have said that angels have locations, as finite entities, but no extension, as spiritual entities. Thus the answer to the supposed scholastic question, "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" might be supposed to be "an infinite number." This is the kind of water that we're treading in here. 

Peace,
Alan


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## earl40 (Sep 20, 2013)

Alan D. Strange said:


> As for the angels needing "a place," I agree that they are finite but I do not agree that they are in any sense extended in space: they are incorporeal, spirits who do not have a body, and thus take up no space.
> 
> Peace,
> Alan



If I read of angels and demons in scripture it sure does "appear" the are in particular locations time and time again. I do not think, I may be wrong, but I see no warrant to think the Holy Spirit is using a type of anthropomorphism when describing angels or spirits in scripture.


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## Fogetaboutit (Sep 20, 2013)

Alan D. Strange said:


> Etienne:
> 
> Perhaps you mean "omnipresent."
> 
> ...



Yes I meant omnipresent thanks,

Hmm, I'm not sure I fully understand but I kind of see what you mean. So to come back to the original question would you also say that this principle also applies to hell? (assuming that the lake of fire and hell are not the same thing since physical bodies will exist in the lake of fire)


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## earl40 (Sep 20, 2013)

Fogetaboutit said:


> So to come back to the original question would you also say that this principle also applies to hell? (assuming that the lake of fire and hell are not the same thing since physical bodies will exist in the lake of fire)



Now this may be a good point in that resurrected physical people will be in the same place as satan and his minions one day.


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## Alan D. Strange (Sep 20, 2013)

Do we know the precise nature of the place of the damned now? No, any more than we know the precise nature of the place of the blessed, other than to say that they are "with Christ."

That's quite different from the new heavens and new earth. And the lake of fire, into which the devil, his angels and all in league with them are finally cast. 

And Earl, I clarified what I said about angels, as spirits, not being extended in space: that does not mean that they have no location, as finite, (I would say that they do have location) but since not extended in space, one might posit that an infinite number might occupy the same location. If this is all seems abstruse and worthlessly speculative, I did not raise the questions. I'm only trying to shed a little light on dealing with these sort of questions, which the text of Genesis (or anything else in the Bible) does not even purport to answer.

Peace,
Alan


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## Peairtach (Sep 20, 2013)

*Alan*


> Some have said that angels have locations, as finite entities, but no extension, as spiritual entities. Thus the answer to the supposed scholastic question, "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" might be supposed to be "an infinite number." This is the kind of water that we're treading in here.



This tale occured to me this morning as I was thinking about this thread.

*Etienne*


> What is God's heaven? Does God need a place to dwell in? How can any Heaven contain an infinite God? From my understanding all Heaven(s) were created in the creation week, I never heard of anything being eternal other than God.



It is the "third heaven" spoken of by the Apostle in II Corinthians 12, the place which does not contain God but where God's glory is particularly revealed, and where Christ is and the departed saints.

The word "heaven" is also used of the sky and outer space, hence "third heaven".

Also see the Book of Revelation, etc.


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## OttoNeubauer (Sep 20, 2013)

> That's an interesting theory, but I can't quite buy it. What do you do with Genesis 1:31, where God seems to be looking back at all six days ("all that he had made") and declares it all "very good"?



I would understand that to be a statement that the creation of everything, including Satan, was "very good" in the sense that the resulting history of the world maximizes God's glory through Christ.

Desiring God explains it better than I can: "God governs the course of history so that, in the long run, His glory will be more fully displayed and His people more fully satisfied than would have been the case in any other world. If we look only at the way things are now in the present era of this fallen world, this is not the best-of-all-possible worlds. But if we look at the whole course of history, from creation to redemption to eternity and beyond, and see the entirety of God's plan, it is the best-of-all-possible plans and leads to the best-of-all-possible eternities. And therefore this universe (and the events that happen in it from creation into eternity, taken as a whole) is the best-of-all-possible-worlds." (link)

With that said, I understand Genesis 1 to be a set of theological truths expressed in figurative language, based on the fact that it describes evening and morning before the sun is created. It makes more sense to me to interpret the whole chapter as figurative, rather than see it as bouncing back and forth between literal and figurative. So when I suggest hell was created on the second day, I'm not making any assertion about a chronological sequence.


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## Peairtach (Sep 20, 2013)

OttoNeubauer said:


> > That's an interesting theory, but I can't quite buy it. What do you do with Genesis 1:31, where God seems to be looking back at all six days ("all that he had made") and declares it all "very good"?
> 
> 
> 
> I would understand that to be a statement that the creation of everything, including Satan, was "very good" in the sense that the resulting history of the world maximizes God's glory through Christ.



The creation of Satan was very good, because he was created without sin just like Man.



> Desiring God explains it better than I can: "God governs the course of history so that, in the long run, His glory will be more fully displayed and His people more fully satisfied than would have been the case in any other world. If we look only at the way things are now in the present era of this fallen world, this is not the best-of-all-possible worlds. But if we look at the whole course of history, from creation to redemption to eternity and beyond, and see the entirety of God's plan, it is the best-of-all-possible plans and leads to the best-of-all-possible eternities. And therefore this universe (and the events that happen in it from creation into eternity, taken as a whole) is the best-of-all-possible-worlds." (link)



Profound thought; thanks for that.



> ith that said, I understand Genesis 1 to be a set of theological truths expressed in figurative language, based on the fact that it describes evening and morning before the sun is created. It makes more sense to me to interpret the whole chapter as figurative, rather than see it as bouncing back and forth between literal and figurative. So when I suggest hell was created on the second day, I'm not making any assertion about a chronological sequence.



Since God creates night and day on Day One, I don't know how the days can be metaphors unless God is creating metaphors.



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## earl40 (Sep 20, 2013)

Alan D. Strange said:


> And Earl, I clarified what I said about angels, as spirits, not being extended in space: that does not mean that they have no location, as finite, (I would say that they do have location) but since not extended in space, one might posit that an infinite number might occupy the same location. If this is all seems abstruse and worthlessly speculative, I did not raise the questions. I'm only trying to shed a little light on dealing with these sort of questions, which the text of Genesis (or anything else in the Bible) does not even purport to answer.
> 
> Peace,
> Alan



I guess I simply can not understand how a spirit can be in a location without being extended in space. I guess is am simply to "dense".


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## ThyWord IsTruth (Sep 20, 2013)

Interesting topic. Some thoughts:

Is not God's wrath and justice glorified with the eternal damnation of those whose abode will be in the lake of fire? It is not only God's objects of grace and love that glorify God. 

I think wether you are Supralapsarian or Infralapsarian will have a lot to do with how you may view the timeframe of the creation of hell or the lake of fire. 

As far as the heavens go, there are three spoken of in scripture. When Paul says he knew a man who was caught up to the third heaven he is referring to the Heaven of heavens, the highest heaven where Christ is seated on the throne. The first heaven being our immediate atmosphere, the second our galaxy and the third the presence of Christ (to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord).


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## Alan D. Strange (Sep 21, 2013)

Earl:

Sure you can understand it. How can an immaterial being, which is what a spirit is--a being not possessing the property of matter--be extended in space? Something extended in space has matter and an immaterial being is not composed of matter and thus is not extended in space.

Now angels are finite spiritual beings, so they may be spoken of as having a location, but in that location, not being extended in space. God is an infinite spiritual being: He, too, is not extended in space (as a spiritual being), but is everywhere present.That is incomprehensible with respect to God (as He is in all His essence). We can grasp these concepts but they are a challenge because we tend to think of beings, and we know other beings, in terms of materiality and physicality.

So we can be tempted to attribute that which pertains to material beings to immaterial beings, but we may not, certainly we may not with respect to God. Nor may we attribute such properties of physicality (extension in space) to angels. If you can get "not being extended in space" with respect to God, (and we certainly teach that since He does not have a body), you can certainly get it with respect to lesser beings. Don't sell yourself short, Earl! 

Peace,
Alan


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## ThyWord IsTruth (Sep 21, 2013)

Alan D. Strange said:


> Earl:
> 
> Sure you can understand it. How can an immaterial being, which is what a spirit is--a being not possessing the property of matter--be extended in space? Something extended in space has matter and an immaterial being is not composed of matter and thus is not extended in space.
> 
> ...



Good explanation Alan. One more point to add. All the elect that have died and are with Christ are absent from their bodies thus lacking matter. Souls are immaterial.


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## Alan D. Strange (Sep 21, 2013)

Jason:

Quite right: both the blessed dead and the cursed dead in the intermediate state, where they presently are, have their existence in a immaterial mode, being souls without bodies. 

In the final state, as I noted above, the elect will have bodily existence once again in a new heavens and new earth; the reprobate will exist bodily in the lake of fire. And as you noted from Romans 9, the former will magnify the love and grace of God and the latter the wrath and justice of God. 

Ultimately, in all things, God will be perfectly glorified. That is a thought of the highest comfort and sweetness.

Peace,
Alan


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## ThyWord IsTruth (Sep 21, 2013)

Alan D. Strange said:


> Ultimately, in all things, God will be perfectly glorified. That is a thought of the highest comfort and sweetness.
> 
> Peace,
> Alan



Amen brother. Very sweet and of the highest comfort indeed! Maran-atha and Marana-tha!


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## earl40 (Sep 21, 2013)

Alan D. Strange said:


> Earl:
> 
> Sure you can understand it. How can an immaterial being, which is what a spirit is--a being not possessing the property of matter--be extended in space? Something extended in space has matter and an immaterial being is not composed of matter and thus is not extended in space.
> 
> ...



Good explanation though I am not sure we can say just because an angel is non material we can be dogmatic in stating they have no extension in space. Take the other half of the equation on what makes up the entire universe. Of course I am speaking of energy. Does sunlight take up space?

All I am trying to covey is that In my most humble opinion God created everything which includes what we "can see" (material) and "not see" (angels) per the WCF, which I believe the divines had in mind when they wrote such. 

Here is a question that may be related. Is there such thing as pure space that contains nothing? I tend to lie on the side that there is no such thing as a space that contains no thing, In other words, a vacuum that is totally devoid of everything. General relativity states that matter/energy is equivalent to space/time. Take away all matter/energy and you have no space/time. So in summation I believe angels are in space and time as God is the only being outside such. Angels are spirits of pure energy and man is both matter (body) and energy (spirit or soul). This all assumes IF the angels were created "in the beginning" which I think the WCF had in mind.


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## THE W (Sep 21, 2013)

To answer the original question, the bible doesn't say, so we don't know.

To answer the question within the question, all of what the LORD created was good because it was in accordance with His will.

Anything that complies with the LORD's will is good and anything that violates the LORD's will is evil and since everything that was created was created by the LORD according to His will, ALL of it was good.


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## earl40 (Sep 21, 2013)

THE W said:


> To answer the original question, the bible doesn't say, so we don't know.
> 
> To answer the question within the question, all of what the LORD created was good because it was in accordance with His will.
> 
> Anything that complies with the LORD's will is good and anything that violates the LORD's will is evil and since everything that was created was created by the LORD according to His will, ALL of it was good.



I will say the bible may say when angels were created. If the WCF is saying "things not seen" were created in the first 6 days then they saw when at least satan was created. I will agree that satan was created good and fell. If this is correct the "serpent of old" fell sometime before Adam which I believe all would also agree with. Now the point I am trying to make is that IF satan was created in the 1st six days (I am) he is not really that "old" if the earth is only 6-10,000 years old. In other words, the matter and energy of the universe may be billions of years old (albeit subjective opinion) and the days in Genesis may not be a literal 24 hour day.


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## Peairtach (Sep 21, 2013)

*Earl*


> Good explanation though I am not sure we can say just because an angel is non material we can be dogmatic in stating they have no extension in space. Take the other half of the equation on what makes up the entire universe. Of course I am speaking of energy. Does sunlight take up space?



Our souls are not extended in space, yet are located in our bodies.

Clearly, from the Scriptures, angels are capable of making themselves visible and interacting with the material world. These things are beyond our understanding.



> If the WCF is saying "things not seen" were created in the first 6 days then they saw when at least satan was created. I will agree that satan was created good and fell. If this is correct the "serpent of old" fell sometime before Adam which I believe all would also agree with. Now the point I am trying to make is that IF satan was created in the 1st six days (I am) he is not really that "old" if the earth is only 6-10,000 years old. In other words, the matter and energy of the universe may be billions of years old (albeit subjective opinion) and the days in Genesis may not be a literal 24 hour day.



If it's not clearly revealed in Scripture when all the angels (including the angel that would become Satan, and those that would become his minions) and the Heaven of Heavens were created, would the divines presume to say that they were created on the Six Days of Creation?


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## earl40 (Sep 21, 2013)

Peairtach said:


> Our souls are not extended in space, yet are located in our bodies.



Well, if our souls or spirits are purely energy they would be extended within the borders of our body while we are alive. Of course I would not be dogmatic in stating that our souls are purely energy, though of course if it be so it is an energy that has the "breath of life" from The Lord. 



Peairtach said:


> Clearly, from the Scriptures, angels are capable of making themselves visible and interacting with the material world. These things are beyond our understanding.



I do not believe angels can or are capable of creating physical instruments or bodies out of nothing as God is able to do, though as you pointed out they are able to manifest themselves and maybe they can somehow change their essence (energy?) to matter. In my mind this would not be out of the possibility of explaining what a angel is made of. Though I strongly suspect it is The Lord who provides a physical body when an angelophany was spoken in scripture because a spirit or angel does not have flesh and bone as part of his natural makeup.




Peairtach said:


> If it's not clearly revealed in Scripture when all the angels (including the angel that would become Satan, and those that would become his minions) and the Heaven of Heavens were created, would the divines presume to say that they were created on the Six Days of Creation?



I do believe the divines did say such as discussed previously, though I can see your point that it not necessarily such. This would be an interesting topic to look into.  So far as scripture speaking of the creation of God I would hold that the angels were part of the creation that happened "In the beginning" which In my most humble opinion was when time began and I know we all agree with Aquinas "that, God alone, Father, Son and Holy Ghost, is from eternity. Catholic Faith holds this without doubt; and everything to the contrary must be rejected as heretical." Thus angels were created in time.


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## Peairtach (Sep 21, 2013)

I don't believe angels or the Heaven of Heavens were from eternity. That is true only of the Triune God.

I believe that the creation of the Heaven of Heavens and angels, and the fall of some of the angels may have been prior to the Six Days.

It's been interesting discussing it with you, Earl.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2


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## THE W (Sep 21, 2013)

earl40 said:


> THE W said:
> 
> 
> > To answer the original question, the bible doesn't say, so we don't know.
> ...



genesis 1 is describing the origin of the natural universe. 

The heavenly realm of the LORD and his angels isn't a part of that universe and no one would agree that the natural universe existed before the LORD created it.

You think someone who is 6,000 years old would be considered a young person?


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## Southern Presbyterian (Sep 22, 2013)

*Moderation*

We're done here. Thread closed.


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