# odd commandments



## non dignus (Oct 18, 2005)

I noticed a listing of half of the 10 commandments, odd numbered only:

Revelation 14

* "1. And I saw, and behold, the lamb (1.) standing on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name (3.), and the name of his Father (5.), written on their foreheads.... 
4. ...These are they that were not defiled with women (7.); for they are virgins. These are they that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were purchased from among men, to be the firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb. 
5. And in their mouth was found no lie (9.): they are without blemish."*

Is this a true pattern? Are there other related or unrelated patterns like this in apocalyptic texts? Does anyone care?

By the way, the response to this on RaptureReady was basically nil.......


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## CalsFarmer (Oct 18, 2005)




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## Contra_Mundum (Oct 18, 2005)

If it is a real literary device, 
and that is at least debatable (seeing that at least two of the "references," Lamb and Father, are clearly inferential and not direct allusions),
one would have to ask the question "Why?" before he could even begin to address the question of meaning, 
which answer could speak more to aesthetic than to content.


I don't mean what follows to be a personal attack, on you or other proponents of finding subtle meanings within the text of Scripture. I do intend it as a real caution--checking yourself, like asking others here on the PB, is a good habit. If you find "something," first try to determine "why" such a thing would be there. If you cannot think of anything, that's really no different than there not really being anything "there," really or as far as you are concerned.

Finding and determining deliberate, multi-layered meaning from the text is really a different "hermeneutic" from the single-meaning hermeneutic of most Reformed exegesis. Sometimes it seems very helpful and insightful, but there aren't as many "controls" on where this kind of hermeneutic can take you. Logically, it will take you back to the _quadriga_ or 4-fold hermeneutical method of the Alexandrine-Augustine-Medieval tradition. And really, there is no reason to stop there either, simply tradition. Intepreters within this tradition could (and did) multiply the spiritual meaning(s) of one text _ad nauseum._


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## Saiph (Oct 18, 2005)

> Logically, it will take you back to the quadriga or 4-fold hermeneutical method of the Alexandrine-Augustine-Medieval tradition. And really, there is no reason to stop there either, simply tradition. Intepreters within this tradition could (and did) multiply the spiritual meaning(s) of one text ad nauseum.



I prefer the medieval hermeneutic. And it may lead one to over spiritualize. Just test all things, and read expository commentaries as well. Spurgeon had a very strange hermeneutic most of the time. I always read his work and ask, what is he going to mine from this text ? Because he comes up with some bizarre perspectives, yet, somehow remains orthodox.

Have you seen the relations between Revelation and the gospel of John on the Knox Seminary website ? ? Very interesting stuff.


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## Contra_Mundum (Oct 18, 2005)

Of course, if it's orthodox, the real question is still, "did it actually come out of this text, or is it read-in?" The same method can "prove" purgatory, and then where are we? Is the meeting of Mary and Elizabeth really an second-level allegory on the OT/NT changeover? This view was published in a modern-Reformed-seminary journal dealing with hermeneutics. It is pure Alexandrian exe-oops-_iso_gesis.

I don't think that all the multi-valent meaning is automatically wrong. John wrote both the Gospel and the Apocalypse, so there may well be dramatic interconnections. The thing is, there has to be some way of showing beyond question that something beyond artistry is there in those layers. The *teaching* of a text has got to be found in the unitary meaning of the text, or else it is a gnostic gospel we preach.

I do think there are a handful of occasions where the author deliberately uses, say, a word or phrase capable of carrying a double-meaning, and _means it to convey_ all the freight it legitimately can. But all we are doing in such a case is finding the author's intent, the standard purpose of the grammatic-historic method. In that case it just happens to be a very deep intent. However, these instances are not the norm in Scripture writing. Artistry and rhetoric, on the other hand, is quite common.

[Edited on 10-19-2005 by Contra_Mundum]


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## Saiph (Oct 18, 2005)

Good point. However, Luther took the medieval hermeneutic, and while he retained some crazy ideas, for the most part, was still clean.

I am not arguing against a single hermeneutic brother, just saying it is not necessarily bad to consider an eschatological, allegorical, moral, or historical approach.

Test ALL things, hold fast to that which is good.

David, here is the link I mentioned:
http://www.knoxseminary.org/prospective/faculty/facultyforum/johnrevelationproject/index.html

[Edited on 10-19-2005 by Saiph]


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## non dignus (Oct 19, 2005)

Thanks for the graceful instruction and the Knox forum, the John/Revelation article will be a real feast. 



If this IS a pattern intended by the Author, (aside from a possible confirmation of the Reformed way of numbering the decalogue against Lutheran and RC numbering) my first thought is towards the way redemptive history is divided into two parts: before the cross and after the cross. The 24 elders picture this as 12 patriarchs and 12 disciples. 

I take the 144K as the complete people of God with an emphasis on the pre-cross community. The 'great multitude' would correspond to the people of God with a post-cross emphasis. Since only half of the commandments are listed, this could be a follow-on theme of 'two' as in 'ten divided by two'. 

There is not another even listing of commandments. Perhaps this shows the Law as passing away.

In contrast to the saints, the earth dwellers are characterized by violation of the first three commandments: *"and they have no rest (4.) day and night, they that worship the beast (1.) and his image (2.), and whoso receiveth the mark of his name(3.). "* Rev 14:11 This formula is repeated three to five more times in the book.

There is another partial listing in Rev 9:20-21: 

*" And the rest of mankind, who were not killed with these plagues, repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and the idols of gold, and of silver, and of brass, and of stone, and of wood; which can neither see, nor hear, nor walk: 21. and they repented not of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts." * 

So what does all this serve? (This is certainly not exhaustive) I think these little patterns are useful to remind us that scripture is not only inerrant but supernatural. And when we contemplate His word we enter into relationship with Him.


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## non dignus (Oct 22, 2005)

Mark,

That Knox Seminary article was really good. Can you show me some more?

Dave

non dignus


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