# Ghosts and haunted houses



## Pergamum (Dec 18, 2018)

Every culture believes in ghosts and haunted houses. Even some in the NT thought Jesus was a ghost/spirit and also Peter.

Why the universal cultural belief in ghosts and what are they? 

Every culture also believes in haunted or enchanted places or houses or relics. 

What is true?


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## RamistThomist (Dec 18, 2018)

The easy answer is demons, but I think that is problematic on several levels:

1) As the gospels make clear, demons always seek a host. I don't think they would be in houses.

2) Unless the houses function as sort of a "doorway." That could explain areas where sex magick and rituals were performed.


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## Dachaser (Dec 20, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> Every culture believes in ghosts and haunted houses. Even some in the NT thought Jesus was a ghost/spirit and also Peter.
> 
> Why the universal cultural belief in ghosts and what are they?
> 
> ...


Demonic forces being used by Satan to continue to keep the unsaved occupied with bad things, and also to divert the attention of the saved away from Christ and to focus on Ghost shows and Paranormal activities.


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## earl40 (Dec 20, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> Every culture believes in ghosts and haunted houses. Even some in the NT thought Jesus was a ghost/spirit and also Peter.
> 
> Why the universal cultural belief in ghosts and what are they?
> 
> ...



I could say none of stuff is true, no matter what cultures think because superstition is abundant in all cultures.

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## Pergamum (Dec 21, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> The easy answer is demons, but I think that is problematic on several levels:
> 
> 1) As the gospels make clear, demons always seek a host. I don't think they would be in houses.
> 
> 2) Unless the houses function as sort of a "doorway." That could explain areas where sex magick and rituals were performed.



What about Lilith, the Night Hag (or demoness of the night) mentioned in Isaiah 34:14. She doesn't seem to seek a body but dwells in desert wastes.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 21, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> What about Lilith, the Night Hag (or demoness of the night) mentioned in Isaiah 34:14. She doesn't seem to seek a body but dwells in desert wastes.



That is true. I don't think she is what the NT calls "an unclean spirit." That's our problem, we tend to think that anything that isn't a Precious Moments angel is a "demon," which is clearly false.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 21, 2018)

earl40 said:


> I could say none of stuff is true, no matter what cultures think because superstition is abundant in all cultures.



And that's all you do in these situations. You "say." You never mount an argument or offer defeaters for my exegesis. 

Now, I am generally skeptical of what we call "haunted houses," but only because I have a robust angelology and theory of the supernatural.

I think most of the "haunted houses" are bunk. I do think that some areas, though, particularly those associated with satanic ritual abuse, are a different matter.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 21, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> What about Lilith, the Night Hag (or demoness of the night) mentioned in Isaiah 34:14. She doesn't seem to seek a body but dwells in desert wastes.



Here is the problem with Lilith:

1) She is clearly not an unclean spirit like what we see in the Gospels and Acts (but curiously not what we see in Paul's letters).
2) I don't think she is an archon, a thronoi, or anything like that. I could be wrong about the archon, though.
3) I think she is a minor territorial spirit (which Gregory of Nazianzus believed in, interestingly enough). I don't think she is a major one, though, for several reasons:
3.1) She is not a bene elohim.
3.2) That desert isn't all that big.


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## Pergamum (Dec 21, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Here is the problem with Lilith:
> 
> 1) She is clearly not an unclean spirit like what we see in the Gospels and Acts (but curiously not what we see in Paul's letters).
> 2) I don't think she is an archon, a thronoi, or anything like that. I could be wrong about the archon, though.
> ...


Where would she have come from? The spirits of the Nephilim, if you believe that? Satyrs are also mentioned. Some speak of genetic hybrids before the Flood. And all cultures speak of monsters. But what is a monster and where did monsters come from?


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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 21, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> What about Lilith, the Night Hag (or demoness of the night) mentioned in Isaiah 34:14. She doesn't seem to seek a body but dwells in desert wastes.


I think it’s best to translate this as a normal creature of the wild, as at least the KJV does. This creature after all is just looking for, and finds, a place of quiet rest and repose; doesn’t sound like anything a demon/goddess/ hag would find. Read in the context of what’s being said. 

Nothing in Scripture prepares us or teaches us that we must deal with haunted houses or forests. One thing we don’t have to worry about, thankfully.


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## Pergamum (Dec 21, 2018)

About haunted houses and inanimate things/places holding spiritual power:

(1) Every culture believes this,
(2) In the bible we even had a pool of water where an angel stirred it from time to time.
(3) Moses and the priests of Egypt used rods to work magic (or at least the apperance of magic in the case of the Egyptians).
(4) The very bones of Elisha raised the dead.
(5) In the OT the Bible spoke of certain lands becoming "defiled" - so what did this mean? Is Revelation 18 an explanation of this?
_Revelations 18:2, "And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the HABITATION OF DEVILS, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird."_
(6) The Apostle Paul's napkins/handkerchiefs were inanimate objects and yet had spiritual power proceeding from them.
(7) Acts 5 tell us that people even hoped for the mere shadow of Peter to fall upon them and all were healed:
----People brought the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and mats so *that at least Peter’s shadow might fall on some of them as he passed by. *Crowds gathered also from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing their sick and those tormented by impure spirits, and *all of them were healed.
(8)* Mark 5 tells us this: When she heard about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak, because she thought, “If I just touch his clothes, I will be healed.” Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering. At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, “Who touched my clothes?”

So at least in some cases inanimate objects were used to transfer spiritual power. We shy away from these verses because the Church built a doctrine of relics upon these verses...yet these verses are scripture, too.


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## Pergamum (Dec 21, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> I think it’s best to translate this as a normal creature of the wild, as at least the KJV does. This creature after all is just looking for, and finds, a place of quiet rest and repose; doesn’t sound like anything a demon/goddess/ hag would find. Read in the context of what’s being said.
> 
> Nothing in Scripture prepares us or teaches us that we must deal with haunted houses or forests. One thing we don’t have to worry about, thankfully.


The Pulpit Commentary:

The word here used, lilith, occurs only in this place. It may be doubted whether any bird, or other animal, is meant. Lilitwas the name of a female demon, or wicked fairy, in whom the Assyrians believed - a being thought to vex and persecute her victims in their sleep.


Cambridge Bible:
The Hebr. is Lîlîth, a fem. formation from Iáil “night.” Render with Cheyne: the night-hag. Lilith appears to be a creation of the Babylonian demonology. “This Lilith plays a great part in the Talmudic demonology; the cabalistic Rabbis forged a whole legend in which this spirit is said to have taken a feminine form to deceive Adam, and to have united herself to him.” (Lenormant, Chaldæan Magic, Engl. Tr. p. 38.) She is mentioned in the Bible only here.

find for herself a place of rest] On the restlessness of evil spirits, cf. Matthew 12:43, “walketh through dry places, seeking rest.”


Barnes Notes on the Bible:

The word לילית lı̂ylı̂yt (from ליל layil, night) properly denotes a night-spectre - a creature of Jewish superstition. The rabbis describe it in the form of a female elegantly dressed that lay in wait for children at night - either to carry them off, or to murder them. The Greeks had a similar idea respecting the female ἔμπουτα empouta, and this idea corresponds to the Roman fables respecting the Lamice, and Striges, and to the Arabic notions of the Ghules, whom they described as female monsters that dwell in deserts, and tear men to pieces (see Gesenius, Com. in loc; and Bochart, Hieroz. ii. 831). The margin in our version expresses the correct idea. All this is descriptive of utter and perpetual desolation - of a land that should be full of old ruins, and inhabited by the animals that usually make such ruins their abode.


Gill:

By the name "Lilith", it appears to be a night bird, which flies and is heard in the night. The Jews call a she demon by this name, which, they say (s), has a human face, and has wings, and destroys children as soon as born; and therefore the Jews, especially in Germany, write upon the four corners of the bed of a new mother, Adam, Eve, out Lilith (t); the same with the Lamia of the Romans; and so the Vulgate Latin here renders it.





Of course we have animals called Tasmanian Devils, but we don't believe they are actual demons. ...But the meaning of Lilith was alive in the cultural venue when Isaiah penned his words.... seems the meaning is that a place would become desolate and the abode of wild animals and perhaps demons.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 21, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> Where would she have come from? The spirits of the Nephilim, if you believe that? Satyrs are also mentioned. Some speak of genetic hybrids before the Flood. And all cultures speak of monsters. But what is a monster and where did monsters come from?



I don't think she is the spirit of a slain Nephilim. Possible, but unlikely. I guess wherever territorial spirits came from. Possibly a beney elohim.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 21, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> I think it’s best to translate this as a normal creature of the wild, as at least the KJV does. This creature after all is just looking for, and finds, a place of quiet rest and repose; doesn’t sound like anything a demon/goddess/ hag would find. Read in the context of what’s being said.
> 
> Nothing in Scripture prepares us or teaches us that we must deal with haunted houses or forests. One thing we don’t have to worry about, thankfully.



That could work if that were the only verse. But the text also mentions in Leviticus, I think, about the realm of Azazel, and how he is connected with goats and demons


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## Tom Hart (Dec 21, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> But what is a monster and where did monsters come from?



Imagination.

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## Tom Hart (Dec 21, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> What is true?



I generally place little stock in the truth claims of primitive paganism.

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## Dachaser (Dec 21, 2018)

Tom Hart said:


> I generally place little stock in the truth claims of primitive paganism.


They can still be dealing with occultic forces of Satan through some of their beliefs and rituals trying to access darkness.


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## Dachaser (Dec 21, 2018)

earl40 said:


> I could say none of stuff is true, no matter what cultures think because superstition is abundant in all cultures.


The work of Satan and His demonic forces can be quite real though!


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## Pergamum (Dec 21, 2018)

Tom Hart said:


> I generally place little stock in the truth claims of primitive paganism.



Or you may be a functional deist.

The spirit world is still active all around us every day. 

Your views are more from the Enlightenment than from the Bible.


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## Dachaser (Dec 21, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> Or you may be a functional deist.
> 
> The spirit world is still active all around us every day.
> 
> Your views are more from the Enlightenment than from the Bible.


I just think that people are sometimes messing around with stuff that is really an opening into the Occultic/demonic.


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Dec 21, 2018)

Jonathan Edwards believed demons could manipulate physical objects.


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## Pergamum (Dec 21, 2018)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> Jonathan Edwards believed demons could manipulate physical objects.


Can you send us a link?


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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 21, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> The Pulpit Commentary:
> 
> The word here used, lilith, occurs only in this place. It may be doubted whether any bird, or other animal, is meant. Lilitwas the name of a female demon, or wicked fairy, in whom the Assyrians believed - a being thought to vex and persecute her victims in their sleep.
> 
> ...


When Isaiah wrote this I’m sure any association with Jewish or other superstition would have been clear. But we can only speculate right?

As for all the other Scriptures from the Gospels to Acts: my belief is that the kinds of demonic activity described, Christ did something about by his death and resurrection. Perhaps there are still vestiges of it where the light of the gospel is darkened by evil. But something changed with Christ’s victory! Whatever may still go on, it’s the seemingly expert knowledge expressed by some on unseen things, things we can’t really possibly know, that I think is a problem. Anywhere Satan has a foothold, all the seeming expert knowledge involved with identifying principalities and powers (we aren’t Christ or apostles to have such immediate knowledge) and descriptions of them in action, or power confrontations, will not avail one bit. The answer is always the same- the light and preaching of the Gospel and prayer and Christ’s power to free people. To me, the over-concern (to me that’s what it is)about exactly what is happening in the spiritual realm is useless. Or perhaps even harmful, depending on the audience- some are really susceptible to obsession or worry about these things. Jesus put all such causes for speculation to flight. What he told his disciples about the activities of Satan and his hordes, and how to deal with them, is instructive and edifying to us but they’re not our marching orders as they were his apostles’ marching orders. Sorry for the long-windedness, I was just wanting to get out these thoughts on the subject. I don’t think it’s wrong at all to be spend time on those passages that speak of such things, by the way.

I don’t know why all cultures have a belief or stories about haunted houses, etc. People are religious by nature. Some may remember a long discussion on PB about this several years ago (UFO’s and ghosts were in the title). Rev. Matthew Winzer had some helpful things to say (effort needed to discern what he was _not_ saying). Satan is a deceiver and illusionist. I would guess he would want people to over-focus on the sensational dark side of things, and to delude them into beliefs in practical gods and goddesses, to distract from the truth.

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## Dachaser (Dec 21, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> When Isaiah wrote this I’m sure any association with Jewish or other superstition would have been clear. But we can only speculate right?
> 
> As for all the other Scriptures from the Gospels to Acts: my belief is that the kinds of demonic activity described, Christ did something about by his death and resurrection. Perhaps there are still vestiges of it where the light of the gospel is darkened by evil. But something changed with Christ’s victory! Whatever may still go on, it’s the seemingly expert knowledge expressed by some on unseen things, things we can’t really possibly know, that I think is a problem. Anywhere Satan has a foothold, all the seeming expert knowledge involved with identifying principalities and powers (we aren’t Christ or apostles to have such immediate knowledge) and descriptions of them in action, or power confrontations, will not avail one bit. The answer is always the same- the light and preaching of the Gospel and prayer and Christ’s power to free people. To me, the over-concern (to me that’s what it is)about exactly what is happening in the spiritual realm is useless. Or perhaps even harmful, depending on the audience- some are really susceptible to obsession or worry about these things. Jesus put all such causes for speculation to flight. What he told his disciples about the activities of Satan and his hordes, and how to deal with them, is instructive and edifying to us but they’re not our marching orders as they were his apostles’ marching orders. Sorry for the long-windedness, I was just wanting to get out these thoughts on the subject. I don’t think it’s wrong at all to be spend time on those passages that speak of such things, by the way.
> 
> I don’t know why all cultures have a belief or stories about haunted houses, etc. People are religious by nature. Some may remember a long discussion on PB about this several years ago (UFO’s and ghosts were in the title). Rev. Matthew Winzer had some helpful things to say (effort needed to discern what he was _not_ saying). Satan is a deceiver and illusionist. He would guess he would want people to over-focus on the sensational dark side of things, and to delude them into beliefs in practical gods and goddesses, to distract from the truth.


Those who have not been redeemed are being influenced by the "bad" Supernatural at times though, as Satan would want us to either see Him as having no authority or power at all, as in being just a master illusionist, or to focus on him and His forces to such an extent that everything bad comes directly due to him all of the time.
My concern on this is that when children are introduced to witchcraft and Ouija boards and horoscopes and the such, all under the banner of entertainment, and then as they grow older, can get really into Ghost shows and hauntings and really into th occult. Those are things best left to those who have to deal with that stuff when the lord directs and guides them to be dealing with it.


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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 21, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> Those whoa re not been redeemed are being influenced by the "bad" Supernatural at times though, as Satan would want us to either see Him as having no authority or power at all, as in being just a master illusionist, or to focus on him and His forces to such an extent that everything bad comes directly due to him all of the time.
> My concern on this is that when children are introduced to witchcraft and Ouija boards and horoscopes and the such, all under the banner of entertainment, and then as they grow older, can get really into Ghost shows and hauntings and really into th occult. Those are things best left to those who have to deal with that stuff when the lord directs and guides them to be dealing with it.


Oh well.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 21, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> When Isaiah wrote this I’m sure any association with Jewish or other superstition would have been clear. But we can only speculate right?



That statement isn't clear. Are you saying that when Isaiah wrote that, and since he obviously believed in Lilith, he was engaging in Jewish superstition? Or are you saying he was rebutting Jewish superstition?


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Dec 21, 2018)

Sadly, I have his physical works and I remember hopping through them and coming across that section. If I can find it I'll try to send it.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 21, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> Rev. Matthew Winzer had some helpful things to say (effort needed to discern what he was _not_ saying). Satan is a deceiver and illusionist. He would guess he would want people to over-focus on the sensational dark side of things, and to delude them into beliefs in practical gods and goddesses, to distract from the truth.



Which is more or less what Perg and I are saying. Do "gods" exist in the sense like Zeus? Of course not. Do dark entities exist today who have mind and will? Of course. That's Biblical Supernaturalism 101.

Are we wasting our time talking about this? I don't think so. I've evangelized numerous people who were into Voodoo, New Age, etc.


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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 21, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> That statement isn't clear. Are you saying that when Isaiah wrote that, and since he obviously believed in Lilith, he was engaging in Jewish superstition? Or are you saying he was rebutting Jewish superstition?


I’m speculating that perhaps at that time a certain bird was associated with that name and its links to mythology. I don’t know. Why do you say Isaiah believed in Lilith- what do you mean by that?


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## TheInquirer (Dec 21, 2018)

> Are we wasting our time talking about this? I don't think so. I've evangelized numerous people who were into Voodoo, New Age, etc.



I have close friends who have done the same. One friend was doing an evangelistic Bible study through the Gospel of Mark with some Wiccans awhile back. When they got to the place where Jesus was dealing with demon possessed people, my friend was wondering how the Wiccans would react. They said, "Oh yeah, demon possession, we've seen that" like it was no big deal and quite common.

Another friend was witnessing to a gal who was into some sort of occult behavior. She mentioned to him she was afraid of her spirit guide who said he would kill her if she tried to get out of the spiritual practices she was involved in.

As the Christian worldview erodes and interest in non-Christian spirituality rises in the West, I have no doubt we are going to see an upsurge in demonic manifestation as they move from the background to the foreground. Drug use, spiritism, sexual immorality, occult practices - these all seem to occur quite a bit together and are becoming more normative at an alarming rate.

Unfortunately, I think an overreaction to the abuses of the Charismatic movement have lead some Evangelicals to reject a biblical view of the supernatural world. It's scary and not pleasant to think about but it actually exalts the victory of Christ when we began to see the triumph over these powers he won at the cross. Satan is called the "god of this age" (2 Cor. 4:4) and the prince of the power of the air at work in the sons of disobedience (Eph 2:2) for good reason. We are at war with these beings (Eph. 6:12). Not understanding the nature of the war, and how to deal with it, I think is dangerous. The only way out of Satan's enslavement for any unbeliever is bowing before the Lordship of Jesus Christ and coming into the protection of His kingdom and authority.


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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 21, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Which is more or less what Perg and I are saying. Do "gods" exist in the sense like Zeus? Of course not. Do dark entities exist today who have mind and will? Of course. That's Biblical Supernaturalism 101.


The epistles speak clearly of the activities and strategies of Satan, which is where we learn all we need to know in order to resist him. The activities and existence of the dark entities you speak of are what I think can only be speculation on our part.


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## earl40 (Dec 21, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> And that's all you do in these situations. You "say." You never mount an argument or offer defeaters for my exegesis.
> 
> Now, I am generally skeptical of what we call "haunted houses," but only because I have a robust angelology and theory of the supernatural.
> 
> I think most of the "haunted houses" are bunk. I do think that some areas, though, particularly those associated with satanic ritual abuse, are a different matter.



The problem is when I "say" and _discuss_ such you simply disagree and charge me with the "all I do". Your "robust angelology" should go the way of the nephilim.


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## earl40 (Dec 21, 2018)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> Jonathan Edwards believed demons could manipulate physical objects.



Maybe, but I bet he never saw such.

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## Stephen L Smith (Dec 21, 2018)

TheInquirer said:


> As the Christian worldview erodes and interest in non-Christian spirituality rises in the West, I have no doubt we are going to see an upsurge in demonic manifestation as they move from the background to the foreground. Drug use, spiritism, sexual immorality, occult practices - these all seem to occur quite a bit together and are becoming more normative at an alarming rate.


Peter Jones ministry "Truth xChange" has a helpful book on this "On Global Wizardry: Techniques of Pagan Spirituality and a Christian Response"


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## RamistThomist (Dec 21, 2018)

earl40 said:


> The problem is when I "say" and _discuss_ such you simply disagree and charge me with the "all I do". Your "robust angelology" should go the way of the nephilim.



Really? I've written dozens of pages on my blog dealing with angels, demons, and nephilim. Some of which I have posted here on the Heiser threads.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 21, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> The epistles speak clearly of the activities and strategies of Satan, which is where we learn all we need to know in order to resist him. The activities and existence of the dark entities you speak of are what I think can only be speculation on our part.



Paul speaks of dominions, arche, thronoi, heights, depths, planos, etc.

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## RamistThomist (Dec 21, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> I’m speculating that perhaps at that time a certain bird was associated with that name and its links to mythology. I don’t know. Why do you say Isaiah believed in Lilith- what do you mean by that?



Didn't you elsewhere charge me with speculation? 

Isaiah believed in Lilith or in whatever that being's name was, since it seems he said as much


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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 21, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Didn't you elsewhere charge me with speculation?
> 
> Isaiah believed in Lilith or in whatever that being's name was, since it seems he said as much


I don't think I charged you with speculation, I said that many things can only be speculation. We all are free to speculate but should call it that.


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## earl40 (Dec 21, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Really? I've written dozens of pages on my blog dealing with angels, demons, and nephilim. Some of which I have posted here on the Heiser threads.



writting about such doe not make it true.


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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 21, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Paul speaks of dominions, arche, thronoi, heights, depths, planos, etc.


Yes, he speaks of them in terms of Christ's having spoiled them, making an open show of them, and triumphing over them at the Cross. Paul also speaks of Satan's very real present activity and our response, a moral warfare only.

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## RamistThomist (Dec 21, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> Yes, he speaks of them in terms of Christ's having spoiled them, making an open show of them, and triumphing over them at the Cross. Paul also speaks of Satan's very real present activity and our response, a moral warfare only.



I'm not sure how that changes anything I said. And I am also not clear on what the category "a moral warfare only" actually means.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 21, 2018)

earl40 said:


> writting about such doe not make it true.



First you say that I should take my angelology all the way to the Nephilim.
I reply I have done that quite extensively.
You then reply, "Writing about it doesn't make it true."

So what, exactly? Disagreeing with me doesn't make me wrong, either.

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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 21, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I'm not sure how that changes anything I said. And I am also not clear on what the category "a moral warfare only" actually means.


All the information given us in the epistles about Satan is in relation to morality- to our resisting sin and temptation. In 2 Timothy, the response to those ensnared by Satan is meekness in instructing them, if God "peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." The bondage of Satan is a moral bondage, and freedom comes not through exorcism but through the hearing of the truth and God granting repentance.

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## RamistThomist (Dec 21, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> The bondage of Satan is a moral bondage, and freedom comes not through exorcism but through the hearing of the truth and God granting repentance.



Except when Paul exorcised demons in Acts. And if you posit an "invisible change" between Acts and the Letters, then that's just begging the question.

Unless by exorcism you mean the dramatic stuff Rome does, then I would certainly shy away from that. But if by exorcism you mean the type of inner healing and work that takes place in the body of Christ, then perhaps we are closer in thought. I'm all for that.


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## Tom Hart (Dec 21, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> Or you may be a functional deist.
> 
> The spirit world is still active all around us every day.
> 
> Your views are more from the Enlightenment than from the Bible.



Watch yourself there.

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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 21, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Except when Paul exorcised demons in Acts. And if you posit an "invisible change" between Acts and the Letters, then that's just begging the question.
> 
> Unless by exorcism you mean the dramatic stuff Rome does, then I would certainly shy away from that. But if by exorcism you mean the type of inner healing and work that takes place in the body of Christ, then perhaps we are closer in thought. I'm all for that.


I do believe that Acts being a narrative of the Acts of the Apostles, its descriptions of what happened aren’t necessarily meant for our emulation. The epistles are the place we go to in order to find what the Church continuing is to expect and do. The narratives of Scripture teach and instruct and edify us, but are not necessarily meant for us to expect to the same things to happen or be accomplished in post-Prophet/post-apostolic times.

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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 21, 2018)

I was once an avid consumer of the Rick Joyner etc. spiritual warfare books, so I know where all that is coming from. I came to disagree heartily with that approach and to rejoice in being delivered from it. The truth is much better.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 21, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> I was once an avid consumer of the Rick Joyner etc. spiritual warfare books, so I know where all that is coming from. I came to disagree heartily with that approach and to rejoice in being delivered from it. The truth is much better.



Genetic fallacy


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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 21, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Genetic fallacy


Well, whatever!  I was just stating that I’m familiar with the position.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 21, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> Well, whatever!  I was just stating that I’m familiar with the position.



Except it's not my position, and you quoted a dangerously heterodox man as representative of it.


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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 21, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Except it's not my position, and you quoted a dangerously heterodox man as representative of it.


I see. You seem to share some of his beliefs, such as in territorial spirits, and some other terms you've used reminded me of that genre of book. I didn't realize he's heterodox- I wouldn't necessarily have recognized that at the time I read that stuff. Forgive any inference that you would hold to any such view. I was speaking only of the matters relating to our discussion here.

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## RamistThomist (Dec 21, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> such as in territorial spirits



So does Gregory of Nazianzus (his book _On God and Man_). Gregory was the most profound theologian of the early church.


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## earl40 (Dec 21, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> So does Gregory of Nazianzus (his book _On God and Man_). Gregory was the most profound theologian of the early church.



Don't forget the nephilim being some kind of hybrid angel and human.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 21, 2018)

earl40 said:


> Don't forget the nephilim being some kind of hybrid angel and human.



Um....okay. Not sure where you are going with it. But yeah, I've read most of the literature on that, both patristic and scholarly ANE sources.


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## Tom Hart (Dec 21, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> So does Gregory of Nazianzus (his book _On God and Man_). Gregory was the most profound theologian of the early church.



Genetic fallacy?

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## RamistThomist (Dec 21, 2018)

Tom Hart said:


> Genetic fallacy?



In a reverse sort of way. But it could also be seen as setting the context. The early fathers had a robust understanding of angels, which understanding was also embedded in their liturgies, so by identifying myself with Gregory of Nazianzus (which I have more or less done over the past decade), I am entering into (participation, methexis) that liturgical outlook.

That's an entirely different claim that simply saying, "Doesn't Rick Joyner teach the same thing?"


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## RamistThomist (Dec 21, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> I do believe that Acts being a narrative of the Acts of the Apostles, its descriptions of what happened aren’t necessarily meant for our emulation. The epistles are the place we go to in order to find what the Church continuing is to expect and do. The narratives of Scripture teach and instruct and edify us, but are not necessarily meant for us to expect to the same things to happen or be accomplished in post-Prophet/post-apostolic times.



I understand the reasoning. It doesn't hold up to scrutiny, though, for several reasons:

1) It's an artificial set up.
2) It's more and more obvious in NT studies that a number of Pauline epistles have narratival substructures.
3) 1 Corinthians 10 says the stories are our examples, which means a) they are teaching us, and b) presumably we should live our lives accordingly. That's more or less what I said about Acts.
4) Jude basically tells stories about fornicators and Sodom and fallen angels, yet this is also "teaching" us.

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## ZackF (Dec 21, 2018)

Serious thread. No one has brought up taking flashlights and heat sensors to a grave yard or old house.

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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 21, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> That's an entirely different claim that simply saying, "Doesn't Rick Joyner teach the same thing?"


Glad I didn’t say that.


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Dec 21, 2018)

ZackF said:


> Serious thread. No one has brought up taking flashlights and heat sensors to a grave yard or old house.


Too funny!


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## earl40 (Dec 21, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Um....okay. Not sure where you are going with it. But yeah, I've read most of the literature on that, both patristic and scholarly ANE sources.



And if I remember you think such a hybrid existed?


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## Pergamum (Dec 22, 2018)

Act 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying...

This episode occurred after the Crucifixion. While Christ dealt with an abnormally large number of demons (who might have gathered at this strategic juncture in Israel to oppose the Messiah), the presence and work of evil spirits, nonetheless, still continued after Christ ascended into heaven.

The early church fathers speak of demons. The Medieval Church speaks of them. 

There is a famous quote from Athanasious (let me find it) that speaks of magic ceasing and demons fleeing as Christianity expands. The demons only has as much power as we give them.

On the Incarnation has some quotes, but here is Athanasius from the life of Anthony:

"And let each one of you consider this, and he will be able to despise the demons...But the demons as they have no power are like actors on the stage changing their shape and frightening children with tumultuous apparition and various forms: from which they ought rather to be despised as showing their weakness. At least the true Angel of the Lord sent against the Assyrian had no need for tumults nor displays from without, nor noises nor rattlings, but in quiet he used his power and immediately destroyed a hundred and eighty-five thousand. But demons like these, who have no power, try to terrify at least by their displays.

30 'So then we ought to fear God only, and despise the demons, and be in no fear of them.

31 And they do come. The demons, however, do this not from any care for the hearers, but to gain their trust, and that then at length, having got them in their power, they may destroy them...

...33 'Thus in days gone by arose the oracles of the Greeks, and thus they were led astray by the demons. But thus also thenceforth their deception was brought to an end by the coming of the Lord , who brought to nought the demons and their devices...So if the demons sometimes do the same by guesswork, let no one wonder at it or heed them."

The desert fathers claimed to have seen demons and often been tempted by them. Even Martin Luther reports being confronted by the devil. 

I am not prepared to call all of them liars. 


In fact, there is no record of any total cessation of dark spiritual activity throughout the history of the Church. At the time of the Protestant Reformation they focused more on the interal and moral aspects of sin and the flesh, and often downplayed the direct role of the devil or demons. Yet, there are records of Puritan possessions and exorcisms, Puritans dealing with witchcract or supposed witchcraft.

The real turning point was the Enlightenment when Christians found out that many of their cases of witchcraft were false accusations and it gave religion a black eye. But some hysteria in Salem does not mean the devil is finished actually working against us.

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## RamistThomist (Dec 22, 2018)

earl40 said:


> And if I remember you think such a hybrid existed?



I wouldn't say "angel-human" hybrid for several reasons:

a) An angel is simply a malak. A messenger. It is a functional term, not an ontological term.
b) The real question is what is the ontology of the beney elohim.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 22, 2018)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> Too funny!



Or even better: why do people investigating a 500 year old haunted house in Germany speak to the ghosts in English?


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## RamistThomist (Dec 22, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> Glad I didn’t say that.





Jeri Tanner said:


> I was once an avid consumer of the Rick Joyner etc. spiritual warfare books, _*so I know where all that is coming from*_.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 22, 2018)

earl40 said:


> And if I remember you think such a hybrid existed?



Exists is present tense. I don't think they currently exist. King David killed the last remnant of the Rephaim and Anakim.

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## earl40 (Dec 22, 2018)

,,,,


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## earl40 (Dec 22, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> b) The real question is what is the ontology of the beney elohim.



The ontology is 100% human beings.

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## Pergamum (Dec 22, 2018)

earl40 said:


> The ontology is 100% human beings.



Sons of God:

Job 1:6 and other places show that Sons of God means the angels. "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them."

"(Old Testament) (bene ha-'elohim, "sons of God" (Genesis 6:2,4; Job 1:6; 2:1); bene 'elohim, "sons of God" (Job 38:7); bene 'elim, "ye mighty," the King James Version; "ye sons of the mighty," King James Version margin, the Revised Version (British and American); "sons of God" or "sons of the gods," the Revised Version margin (Psalms 29:1); "sons of the mighty," the King James Version and the Revised Version (British and American); "sons of God" or "sons of the gods," the Revised Version margin (Psalms 89:6)); Septuagint huioi tou theou, hoi aggeloi tou theou (Genesis 6:2); huioi tou theou (Genesis 6:4); hoi aggeloi tou theou (Job 1:6; 2:1); aggeloi mou (Job 38:7); huioi theou (Psalms 29:1; 89:6; compare Daniel 3:25)."


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## earl40 (Dec 22, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> Sons of God:
> 
> Job 1:6 and other places show that Sons of God means the angels. "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them."
> 
> "(Old Testament) (bene ha-'elohim, "sons of God" (Genesis 6:2,4; Job 1:6; 2:1); bene 'elohim, "sons of God" (Job 38:7); bene 'elim, "ye mighty," the King James Version; "ye sons of the mighty," King James Version margin, the Revised Version (British and American); "sons of God" or "sons of the gods," the Revised Version margin (Psalms 29:1); "sons of the mighty," the King James Version and the Revised Version (British and American); "sons of God" or "sons of the gods," the Revised Version margin (Psalms 89:6)); Septuagint huioi tou theou, hoi aggeloi tou theou (Genesis 6:2); huioi tou theou (Genesis 6:4); hoi aggeloi tou theou (Job 1:6; 2:1); aggeloi mou (Job 38:7); huioi theou (Psalms 29:1; 89:6; compare Daniel 3:25)."



Rev. Winzer sums up the idea of such entertainment....."If one entertains the idea that fallen angels can have sexual relations with human beings and produce a monster offspring he can read anything into the Bible and be open to any kind of experience."

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## RamistThomist (Dec 22, 2018)

earl40 said:


> The ontology is 100% human beings.



In logic this is called an assertion, and it doesn't make sense of any passage.

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## RamistThomist (Dec 22, 2018)

earl40 said:


> Rev. Winzer sums up the idea of such entertainment....."If one entertains the idea that fallen angels can have sexual relations with human beings and produce a monster offspring he can read anything into the Bible and be open to any kind of experience."



This is rich. Perg offered an exegetical argument and you responded by mocking him.

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## earl40 (Dec 22, 2018)

Perg, once one gets rid the notion of a wrong view of demons one can dispel any question on haunted houses and the like. I say this with no malice to a dear brother.


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## earl40 (Dec 22, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> This is rich. Perg offered an exegetical argument and you responded by mocking him.



You ought to read such with more charity.

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## RamistThomist (Dec 22, 2018)

The alternative to the Divine Council reading of Psalm 82 is that the _beney elohim _are not spirit-beings (angels, to use a very inaccurate term), but Jewish elders. If you hold this view, then the following entail:


These Jewish dudes are in heaven (while they are inhabiting earth, I guess?) having a council with Yahweh. But we have no evidence that Jewish guys routinely met in heaven to discuss rule on earth (similar language is used in Psalm 89, but it says “cloud,” which only sharpens the problem).
One of James Jordan’s students says this refers to the meeting Yahweh had with Moses and the 70 elders in Exodus 24. There are several huge problems with this:
a) The text nowhere says this.
b) The ending of the meeting in Exodus 24 is positive (or neutral, at worst). Psalm 82 is a condemnation throughout. These are clearly two different events.
Jewish elders are never promised that they would rule over the nations, so it isn’t clear how they figure into Psalm 82. Modern Talmudists believe they do in fact rule over the nations, but that’s a different point.

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## RamistThomist (Dec 22, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> This is rich. Perg offered an exegetical argument and you responded by mocking him.



Then that should begin with your actually working through Perg's exegetical argument instead of saying, "Winzer said such people will believe anything" (paraphrase)


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## Pergamum (Dec 22, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Then that should begin with your actually working through Perg's exegetical argument instead of saying, "Winzer said such people will believe anything" (paraphrase)


Also, Rev Winzer said a lot of stuff. He is not infallible, especially in matters of the free offer, drinking alcohol, and the perpetual virginity of Mary.

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## Afterthought (Dec 22, 2018)

Confessionally, the "ghosts" are not human spirits.

I. The bodies of men, after death, return to dust, and see corruption;*a* but their souls (which neither die nor sleep), having an immortal subsistence,*b* immediately return to God who gave them. The souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies:*c* and the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day.*d* Besides these two places for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.


People have superstitious and idolatrous worldviews, and some will attribute phenomenon to "ghosts" or lesser deities, but there is only one God.

*Q. *5. Are there more Gods than one?
*A. *There is but one only, the living and true God.



Edit: Matthew Poole on Psalm 82.

"This Psalm contains an admonition, either, 1. To the chief rulers of Israel, whether judges or kings, or their great council called the Sanhedrim. Or rather,

2. To all the rulers of the several nations of the world, to whom this word might come; as may be gathered, partly from the expressions here used, which are general, and not peculiar to the governors of Israel, and therefore not rashly and unnecessarily to be restrained; and partly from the last verse, where he mentions the whole earth and all nations as concerned in the contents of this Psalm.

The psalmist, exhorting and expostulating with the judges, Psa_82:1-4, reproveth their want of judgment and negligence, Psa_82:5-7, and prayeth the Lord to judge, Psa_82:8."


If there are other "elohim" [in the senses that seem to be used in this thread? I'm aware the word can be translated by angels], how is Jesus one substance with the Father? He might be another elohim: the first of elohim among the others but still less than the Father. Indeed, at the very least, most of the proof texts for Christ's divinity will only show him to be greater than the other elohim.

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## jwithnell (Dec 22, 2018)

I'll not deal with demons, but to the OP: the universality could come from our God-given desire to understand his world. If you don't know why something happened the "spirit world" gives an explanation. Christianity and science generally drive superstitions away.


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## Dachaser (Dec 22, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Which is more or less what Perg and I are saying. Do "gods" exist in the sense like Zeus? Of course not. Do dark entities exist today who have mind and will? Of course. That's Biblical Supernaturalism 101.
> 
> Are we wasting our time talking about this? I don't think so. I've evangelized numerous people who were into Voodoo, New Age, etc.


My initial experience in this area was when the Lord converted me while in College, as a good friend of mine was really into TM, and during one of his trances, he thought that he was being attacked by evil dark forces. I witnessed to Him, and prayed that God would protect Him, and urged him to come to Christ and swear off any more TM dabbling.

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## Dachaser (Dec 22, 2018)

TheInquirer said:


> I have close friends who have done the same. One friend was doing an evangelistic Bible study through the Gospel of Mark with some Wiccans awhile back. When they got to the place where Jesus was dealing with demon possessed people, my friend was wondering how the Wiccans would react. They said, "Oh yeah, demon possession, we've seen that" like it was no big deal and quite common.
> 
> Another friend was witnessing to a gal who was into some sort of occult behavior. She mentioned to him she was afraid of her spirit guide who said he would kill her if she tried to get out of the spiritual practices she was involved in.
> 
> ...


I think that your last point about many underestimating the Supernatural due to Charismatic foolishness in this real is spot on, as we need to be aware that Satan and His demons are active at this present time, and are trying to gain footholds into even lives of unsuspecting Christians who might feel drawn to dabble around a bit with Ghosts, Ufos, etc.

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## Dachaser (Dec 22, 2018)

Afterthought said:


> Confessionally, the "ghosts" are not human spirits.
> 
> I. The bodies of men, after death, return to dust, and see corruption;*a* but their souls (which neither die nor sleep), having an immortal subsistence,*b* immediately return to God who gave them. The souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies:*c* and the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day.*d* Besides these two places for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.
> 
> ...


Jesus is far greater then any elohim, as He alone is very God of very God.. Was that last quote from Matthew Poole then?


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## Dachaser (Dec 22, 2018)

jwithnell said:


> I'll not deal with demons, but to the OP: the universality could come from our God-given desire to understand his world. If you don't know why something happened the "spirit world" gives an explanation. Christianity and science generally drive superstitions away.


Sometimes though science can be taken to the extreme of there not even being any Supernatural forces, such as in no God.


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## Afterthought (Dec 22, 2018)

See Calvin's comments on 1 Cor 8 and 10. The earth is the Lord's and all the fulness thereof. Defilement does not come from _things_ because an idol is nothing, and there is only one God, but defilement comes from the intention of the one who worships the idol. The piece of wood or stone is God's creature and is good in and of itself. The believer defiles himself by partaking with wicked persons to worship devils (they participate in the worship of false gods by eating at the idol tables), not by making use of the things that were consecrated to the idols/non-entities. The defilement is thus a moral defilement (perhaps a link here to nothing that goes into the body defiling a person but only what comes out of the wicked heart), rather than a defilement that inheres in objects.

To the pure all things are pure. There is no real defilement in "haunted" houses. It's just a house. If it was connected with devil worship, the only defilement that could take place would be of the person who had an impure intention in making use of the house. To the impure, nothing is pure--not even a normal house, since they receive it not from the hand of God (who truly owns it) and defile it with the idolatries of their heart.

This is the condition under the NT. So far as the OT references go, the argument Paul makes for the NT is from the OT, so this must have (in an absolute sense) been true in the OT also. However, there is clearly a concept of ceremonial defilement in the OT that is abolished in the NT (which is why it appears again in Revelation, which uses OT concepts to explain spiritual truths). It was possible for things and objects to be ceremonially unclean, but this is not true now. Ceremonial purity is used to teach about moral purity, e.g., avoiding the garment stained by the flesh.

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## Edward (Dec 22, 2018)

earl40 said:


> once one gets rid the notion of a wrong view of demons one can dispel any question on haunted houses and the like.



Folks who don't believe in haunted houses never lived in one.

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## Tom Hart (Dec 22, 2018)

Edward said:


> Folks who don't believe in haunted houses never lived in one.



That goes without saying.


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## earl40 (Dec 22, 2018)

Edward said:


> Folks who don't believe in haunted houses never lived in one.



My wife thinks our house is haunted when I am home.


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## ZackF (Dec 22, 2018)

earl40 said:


> My wife thinks our house is haunted when I am home.


Have her read some of Jacobs posts and then ask what she thinks of you.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 22, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> My initial experience in this area was when the Lord converted me while in College, as a good friend of mine was really into TM, and during one of his trances, he thought that he was being attacked by evil dark forces. I witnessed to Him, and prayed that God would protect Him, and urged him to come to Christ and swear off any more TM dabbling.



TM is pretty close to astral projection. Tibetan Buddhism is a very dark form of sorcery.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 22, 2018)

I've been listening to interviews of people who had multiple personalities and dissociative identities from Satanic Ritual Abuse. Astral projection was involved. I am beginning to suspect that what we often call "haunted houses" might be astral projection.


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Dec 22, 2018)

I have personally never undoubtedly experienced anything supernaturally strange in these ways, so the whole topic is practically irrelevant to me. Just like the charismatic movement can take things way too far with hearing from God directly, the tongues, and other things, I think many people over or wrongly spiritualize the topic of ghosts and hauntings. Could some of it be true? I definitely think that it's possible, and I'm okay with not having a systematic theology to justify a position on the topic. I'm pretty open minded when it comes to those things and would lean towards them being real because 1. the Bible seems to have many instances of the spiritual realm interacting with the earthly 2. there are so many stories and instances of these things happening, that I think it would be pretty crazy to dismiss every single testimony as being false.

Some things we just don't have answers for. Remember that show "Beyond Belief"? So many of those stories are really far out, but are said to be true. I don't know what to make of them, but I imagine some of those stories somehow really are true.


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## Dachaser (Dec 24, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> TM is pretty close to astral projection. Tibetan Buddhism is a very dark form of sorcery.


My friend was scared when he came over to see me, as while did not believe in Demons, thought that he had encountered "dark forces"


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## Dachaser (Dec 24, 2018)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> I have personally never undoubtedly experienced anything supernaturally strange in these ways, so the whole topic is practically irrelevant to me. Just like the charismatic movement can take things way too far with hearing from God directly, the tongues, and other things, I think many people over or wrongly spiritualize the topic of ghosts and hauntings. Could some of it be true? I definitely think that it's possible, and I'm okay with not having a systematic theology to justify a position on the topic. I'm pretty open minded when it comes to those things and would lean towards them being real because 1. the Bible seems to have many instances of the spiritual realm interacting with the earthly 2. there are so many stories and instances of these things happening, that I think it would be pretty crazy to dismiss every single testimony as being false.
> 
> Some things we just don't have answers for. Remember that show "Beyond Belief"? So many of those stories are really far out, but are said to be true. I don't know what to make of them, but I imagine some of those stories somehow really are true.


My concern would be when we open ourselves up to satanic influences by getting interested and dabbling around with Ghost shows, Ufo's, Occult stuff etc.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 24, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> My friend was scared when he came over to see me, as while did not believe in Demons, thought that he had encountered "dark forces"



More often than not, I try not to use the term "demon" right away. Even we who are biblically literate tend to import film connotations into the term. Daimonia is a biblical term, but it needs to be fleshed out (no pun intended).

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## JM (Dec 24, 2018)

Just listen to this this morning. A sermon on Deuteronomy 18.


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## VictorBravo (Dec 24, 2018)

I'm starting to wonder if the office next door to me is haunted.

A couple of years ago it was occupied by a lawyer who played in a praise band at a local evangelical church. Then he got into the legalized marijuana gig, gave up his profession of faith and now is an acolyte of the "Force," being an ascending master of the Jedi faith. He also quit practicing law and is now a full-time "bartender" at one of the local pot shops.

So a new lawyer took over the space. After an auspicious start, she found herself facing DUI and drug charges.

The landlord asked me if I wanted to expand into that space. I told him I'm happy with my little drama-free hole in the wall.

As for demons, etc., I purposely do not delve too deeply into the topic, but I have enough first-hand (albeit anecdotal) observations that folks who get into drugs and/or who play with occultic things often find themselves in a real mess--and not just a legal mess.

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## Pergamum (Dec 24, 2018)

VictorBravo said:


> I'm starting to wonder if the office next door to me is haunted.
> 
> A couple of years ago it was occupied by a lawyer who played in a praise band at a local evangelical church. Then he got into the legalized marijuana gig, gave up his profession of faith and now is an acolyte of the "Force," being an ascending master of the Jedi faith. He also quit practicing law and is now a full-time "bartender" at one of the local pot shops.
> 
> ...


Most lawyers ARE demon-possessed, aren't they?

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## VictorBravo (Dec 24, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> Most lawyers ARE demon-possessed, aren't they?



They might be, but most of the ones I know come do quite well on their own. I think the demons have better targets.

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## earl40 (Dec 25, 2018)

VictorBravo said:


> They might be, but most of the ones I know come do quite well on their own. I think the demons have better targets.



Like those who work in the medical profession.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 25, 2018)

I know it's dangerous to spend all the time talking about demons, so I wondered if I did that. There is one sure-fire way to see. I went to my blog and looked at the tags in the right-hand column. I've spent more time talking about epistemology than anything else. That kind of surprised me, since I haven't dealt with epistemology in about a year. Then it was Trinity.
https://tentsofshem.wordpress.com/


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## Pergamum (Dec 25, 2018)

I bet nobody pulled that same line on William Gurnell (warning him about spending all his time talking about demons).

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## Aco (Dec 25, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> And that's all you do in these situations. You "say." You never mount an argument or offer defeaters for my exegesis.
> 
> Now, I am generally skeptical of what we call "haunted houses," but only because I have a robust angelology and theory of the supernatural.
> 
> I think most of the "haunted houses" are bunk. I do think that some areas, though, particularly those associated with satanic ritual abuse, are a different matter.



What reference is good for angelology in your opinion? I know Turretin mentions something in short. I've never went into that issue in-depth.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 25, 2018)

Aco said:


> What reference is good for angelology in your opinion? I know Turretin mentions something in short. I've never went into that issue in-depth.



How technical do you want to get? The following are fairly popular treatments.

The best short treatment is Michael Heiser's _Angels_. I know Heiser is controversial in some circles, but that's only because of his view of Nephilim, which isn't in his _Angels_.

Another great one is Dorn's work.
https://www.amazon.com/Unseen-Realm...&qid=1545747122&sr=8-3&keywords=doug+van+dorn


The Lutheran apologist and theologian JW Montgomery did a great job.
https://tentsofshem.wordpress.com/2018/06/22/review-principalities-and-powers-montgomery/


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## RamistThomist (Dec 25, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> I bet nobody pulled that same line on William Gurnell (warning him about spending all his time talking about demons).



Right. And emphasis-arguments are almost always wrong. A thing is true or false, regardless of how much it is "emphasized." Now, an over-emphasis on something can be quite unhealthy. I've been there, and I can give a few examples:

1) An overemphasis on theonomy can turn you either into a kinist or into an American Vision Cultural Marxist.
2) An overemphasis on Thomism can turn you into a papist.
3) An overemphasis on partial preterism can turn you into a full preterist.


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## Aco (Dec 25, 2018)

Reading through the comments in the thread...I have never experienced anything like that and recall to have rarely heard of people experiencing demons or similar things, only if involved in the occult.
But all that "haunted houses and places" is very much strange to me. It seems to be much more an american thing to me (maybe also british because of their castles etc.).
A great emphasis on exorcisms also seems to be quite romanistic to me, for example in Eastern orthodoxy, where I came from, it's very very rare. I know only that gypsies and Valachs were a lot, now a little bit less, heavily involved in black magic, which led to demonic possessions. I know that from older farmers, where I come from, whose anscestors lived under Ottoman rule and were illiterate and some of the superstitious, that there were widespread beliefs in vampires (the term "vampire" actually originated from that area) and practice of black magic etc. 
But know all that seems to have vanquished in most parts. 
Is it exclusively tied to occult practices?


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## RamistThomist (Dec 25, 2018)

Aco said:


> A great emphasis on exorcisms also seems to be quite romanistic to me, for example in Eastern orthodoxy, where I came from, it's very very rare.



An exorcism is simply driving the demon out by the power of Jesus' name. Rome makes it more a big deal than anything else.

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## JM (Dec 25, 2018)

I'd say go no further in your study than the Bible. The local presbytery should be able to handle this. A friend of mine wrote a paper of Voodoo/Hoodoo and most recently Freemasonry but he was given the task by the presbytery.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 26, 2018)

JM said:


> I'd say go no further in your study than the Bible. The local presbytery should be able to handle this. A friend of mine wrote a paper of Voodoo/Hoodoo and most recently Freemasonry but he was given the task by the presbytery.



Yeah, I normally wouldn't recommend people delve too deeply on their own. Once I learned how the US Govt was using programmed multiples and employing the High Priest of Set, I knew we were getting into dark stuff.

Since most of this stuff on the surface level is recycled New Age, a good worldview primer is sufficient.


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## earl40 (Dec 26, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> An exorcism is simply driving the demon out by the power of Jesus' name. Rome makes it more a big deal than anything else.



It is still a big deal if even one exorcism is attempted today in any church. The number makes no difference if people believe in such via bad teaching, or supposed eye witness testimony.


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## Pergamum (Dec 26, 2018)

Somebody should define exorcism.

If I have prayed and read Scripture with a person seeing a spirit (a spirit telling him to hang himself) and he destroys his amulet said to contain a family spirit as a sign of repentance, and prays, and then the man stops seeing a demon and hearing voices telling him to kill himself...

....then what have I done?

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## RamistThomist (Dec 26, 2018)

earl40 said:


> It is still a big deal if even one exorcism is attempted today in any church. The number makes no difference if people believe in such via bad teaching, or supposed eye witness testimony.



Calling on Jesus' name is a big deal. I do it often.


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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 26, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> Somebody should define exorcism.
> 
> If I have prayed and read Scripture with a person seeing a spirit (a spirit telling him to hang himself) and he destroys his amulet said to contain a family spirit as a sign of repentance, and prays, and then the man stops seeing a demon and hearing voices telling him to kill himself...
> 
> ....then what have I done?


I feel like the posts that push back against some ideas surrounding exorcism don’t get read carefully, and extremes of what is considered “cessationism” get imported into them. At least, there’s very little interaction with or acknowledgement expressed of assertions based on Scripture. All of us, I hope, would say that “what you have done” is pray to a great God, and proclaimed his great truths to a needy person. Then I am sure, like any one of us would have done, you gave thanks to God for a change in that person. But you didn’t see what happened; you can’t know with any certainty what happened. We shouldn’t make pronouncements about what happens in the spiritual realm, and don’t have to. The secret things belong to the Lord. That’s all some of us are trying to say. If the man becomes a believer or is strengthened in his faith, and these troubling events go away, then praise God. He uses our prayers and our words. He is good. 

Again, Rev. Winzer on this board always recommended Satan Cast Out by Frederick Leahy. That book will greatly help anyone trying to sort out how to think about the activity of demons, spirits, etc.

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## RamistThomist (Dec 26, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> But you didn’t see what happened; you can’t know with any certainty what happened.



David Hume said literally the exact same thing to prove that "cause and effect" do not exist.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 26, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> We shouldn’t make pronouncements about what happens in the spiritual realm, and don’t have to.



Is that a pronouncement about what can happen in the spiritual realm?


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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 26, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Is that a pronouncement about what can happen in the spiritual realm?


No.


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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 26, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> David Hume said literally the exact same thing to prove that "cause and effect" do not exist.


I was speaking of the unseen working of the Holy Spirit (John 3:8) in freeing someone ensnared by the devil; nothing to do with anything David Hume said.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 27, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> I was speaking of the unseen working of the Holy Spirit (John 3:8) in freeing someone ensnared by the devil; nothing to do with anything David Hume said.



You used almost his exact same sentence.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 27, 2018)

There are a lot of unseen things that we can still know about. So it doesn' tlogically follow that if something is unseen, we can't know it. I don't even know God's essence, yet I am able to make a number of pronouncements about it: It's simple, for one.


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## Tom Hart (Dec 27, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> You used almost his exact same sentence.



I think context helps here.

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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 27, 2018)

Yes, context is king.  Jacob, our interaction goes too far afield I think.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 27, 2018)

Tom Hart said:


> I think context helps here.



Not really. It's the same metaphysics involved. If I can't see the cause and effect, it don't real.


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## Pergamum (Dec 27, 2018)

"The devil is most active in the world by pretending he doesn't exist," might hold some validity in the Atheistic West, but not in many other parts of the globe.

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## RamistThomist (Dec 27, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> "The devil is most active in the world by pretending he doesn't exist," might hold some validity in the Atheistic West, but not in many other parts of the globe.



Indeed, we can even say such a view is cultural imperialism by taking the unique experience of the secular West and imposing it on the rest of humanity and human history.


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## earl40 (Dec 27, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Calling on Jesus' name is a big deal. I do it often.



You know what I mean.


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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 27, 2018)

I just want to say, again, that everyone who has commented here believes firmly that the devil is active. Some of us want to get our doctrine about that activity, and what the duty of the Church is in relation to it, from Scripture and not from philosophy, conjecture, reports, or even experience.

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## earl40 (Dec 27, 2018)

...


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## earl40 (Dec 27, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> I just want to say, again, that everyone who has commented here believes firmly that the devil is active. Some of us want to get our doctrine about that activity, and what the duty of the Church is in relation to it, from Scripture and not from philosophy, conjecture, reports, or even experience.



Indeed, and one should not take the miraculous deeds of Jesus and The Apostles and make that normative practice today.

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## Dachaser (Dec 27, 2018)

earl40 said:


> writting about such doe not make it true.


The scriptures state that satan ans his fallen angels


earl40 said:


> writting about such doe not make it true.


The scriptures indicate to us that Satan and His demonic forces are real and are powerful though, correct?


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## Dachaser (Dec 27, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> All the information given us in the epistles about Satan is in relation to morality- to our resisting sin and temptation. In 2 Timothy, the response to those ensnared by Satan is meekness in instructing them, if God "peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." The bondage of Satan is a moral bondage, and freedom comes not through exorcism but through the hearing of the truth and God granting repentance.


Satan blinds the eyes of those not saved, and he also is the one behind all false religions and theologies, and while you are indeed true that the Gospel light and power of Christ can deliver from his darkness, does he not still retain supernatural abilities and powers also though even now?


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## Dachaser (Dec 27, 2018)

earl40 said:


> Don't forget the nephilim being some kind of hybrid angel and human.


Are those said to be the result of the sons of God and mortal women in Genesis?


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## Dachaser (Dec 27, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> Act 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying...
> 
> This episode occurred after the Crucifixion. While Christ dealt with an abnormally large number of demons (who might have gathered at this strategic juncture in Israel to oppose the Messiah), the presence and work of evil spirits, nonetheless, still continued after Christ ascended into heaven.
> 
> ...


I really wonder if Satan "plays around" with the unsaved and saved, and updates to fit our present culture and thinking processes. as once they were seen as fairies and incubus and the like, and now in the Space Age have appeared to us as space brothers and aliens from space coming to deliver and save us now.


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## Dachaser (Dec 27, 2018)

earl40 said:


> It is still a big deal if even one exorcism is attempted today in any church. The number makes no difference if people believe in such via bad teaching, or supposed eye witness testimony.


Can unsaved persons become demon possessed today, and if so, would they not need to be delivered by the power of the Holy Spirit?


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## Dachaser (Dec 27, 2018)

earl40 said:


> Indeed, and one should not take the miraculous deeds of Jesus and The Apostles and make that normative practice today.


Indeed not the norm for today, but does not mean that automatically nothing like that can ever happen!


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## RamistThomist (Dec 27, 2018)

earl40 said:


> You know what I mean.



Not necessarily. I was oppressed by dark forces and I called on Jesus' name for deliverance. He answered.

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## RamistThomist (Dec 27, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> Are those said to be the result of the sons of God and mortal women in Genesis?



The crux of the matter is what does "beney ha-elohim" mean? I don't call them angels because angel is a functional term, not an ontological one.

People object, "Angels don't have penises." That has nothing to do with the issue. First of all, I don't believe all spirit beings are lumped under the label "angel." The OT doesn't do that. A rephaim is a spirit-being, but it is certainly not an angel! A shedim is a spirit-being, but not an angel.

But whatever. Do angels have mouths? Most people say no, but the Bible describes angels as "eating."

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## Dachaser (Dec 28, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> The crux of the matter is what does "beney ha-elohim" mean? I don't call them angels because angel is a functional term, not an ontological one.
> 
> People object, "Angels don't have penises." That has nothing to do with the issue. First of all, I don't believe all spirit beings are lumped under the label "angel." The OT doesn't do that. A rephaim is a spirit-being, but it is certainly not an angel! A shedim is a spirit-being, but not an angel.
> 
> But whatever. Do angels have mouths? Most people say no, but the Bible describes angels as "eating."


I look at it as demons possessing the wicked line of Cain, and the byproducts of that sexual union between daughters of men and them were the Giants and others of renown of OT times.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 28, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> I look at it as demons possessing the wicked line of Cain, and the byproducts of that sexual union between daughters of men and them were the Giants and others of renown of OT times.



Could be. I don't see the text saying anything about the line of Cain.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 28, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> gain, Rev. Winzer on this board always recommended Satan Cast Out by Frederick Leahy. That book will greatly help anyone trying to sort out how to think about the activity of demons, spirits, etc



So our church library had a copy and I browsed it. On p. 155 he said that while most magic is nonsense (and I agree), it does open a door to demonic activity. That seems to be what I am saying.


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## Dachaser (Dec 28, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> So our church library had a copy and I browsed it. On p. 155 he said that while most magic is nonsense (and I agree), it does open a door to demonic activity. That seems to be what I am saying.


The vast majority of Magic/Tarot cards/séances etc. are indeed a sham, fakery of the highest order, but there would still be those rare times when real supernatural activities are happening, and Christians should avoid those at all costs.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 28, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> The vast majority of Magic/Tarot cards/séances etc. are indeed a sham, fakery of the highest order, but there would still be those rare times when real supernatural activities are happening, and Christians should avoid those at all costs.



Yeah, like Ouija boards. There is just so much documentary evidence. And it is a literal channeling session.


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## Tom Hart (Dec 28, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Yeah, like Ouija boards. There is just so much documentary evidence. And it is a literal channeling session.



Documentary evidence of what?


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## RamistThomist (Dec 28, 2018)

Tom Hart said:


> Documentary evidence of what?



Since "Demon-possession" somewhat begs the question in terms of what's happening, we will call it "multiple personalities."


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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 28, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> So our church library had a copy and I browsed it. On p. 155 he said that while most magic is nonsense (and I agree), it does open a door to demonic activity. That seems to be what I am saying.





BayouHuguenot said:


> So our church library had a copy and I browsed it. On p. 155 he said that while most magic is nonsense (and I agree), it does open a door to demonic activity. That seems to be what I am saying.


That's no surprise and no one has denied that this can be true. The problems lie with popular views on exorcism, identifying demonic types, etc. Leahy's view is that demons are active (of course), but the particulars of what is going on spiritually in any given apparently demonic situation are unknown to us- that is for God to know. In a situation where one would typically think that a person is demon possessed, or some other demonic activity is afoot, we aren't to perform exorcisms or try to cast out demons, ghosts and such. The solution for every such problem is the same: earnest prayer and God's word. He quotes Luther: "We cannot expel demons with certain ceremonies and words, as Jesus Christ , the prophets, and the apostles did. All we can do is in the name of Jesus to pray the Lord God, of his infinite mercy, to deliver the possessed persons. And if our prayer is offered up in full faith, we are assured by Christ himself (John 16:23) that it will be efficacious and overcome all the devil's resistance. I might mention many instances of this. But we cannot of ourselves expel the evil spirits, nor must we even attempt it."

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## Tom Hart (Dec 28, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Since "Demon-possession" somewhat begs the question in terms of what's happening, we will call it "multiple personalities."



There is documentary evidence of ouija boards leading to mulptiple personality disorder/demonic activity?

Can you provide a link to some of this evidence?


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## RamistThomist (Dec 28, 2018)

Tom Hart said:


> Can you provide a link to some of this evidence?



Why? It's just going to get dismissed a priori (see any one of Earl's posts). Before we can talk about evidence we have to talk about worldview implications of evidence. I have provided l inks on other threads concerning verifying the supernatural. I'll see where i put them.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 28, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> That's no surprise and no one has denied that this can be true.



Earl does.


Jeri Tanner said:


> Leahy's view is that demons are active (of course), but the particulars of what is going on spiritually in any given apparently demonic situation are unknown to us- that is for God to know.



Yes and no. The only thing I would say to that is God has revealed a lot about the unseen world. Our problem is that we limit it to two different entities (angeloi and daimonoia) and ignore everything else he has said (archons, thronoi, etc).


Jeri Tanner said:


> In a situation where one would typically think that a person is demon possessed, or some other demonic activity is afoot, we aren't to perform exorcisms or try to cast out demons, ghosts and such.



That's a morally binding statement for which you don't have any evidence.


Jeri Tanner said:


> The solution for every such problem is the same: earnest prayer and God's word.



Strictly speaking, it would also include fasting.


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## Tom Hart (Dec 28, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Why? It's just going to get dismissed a priori (see any one of Earl's posts).



Best not to claim evidence and then fail to provide it, though.



BayouHuguenot said:


> I have provided l inks on other threads concerning verifying the supernatural. I'll see where i put them.



I'm interested specifically in that ouija board claim.


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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 28, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Yes and no. The only thing I would say to that is God has revealed a lot about the unseen world. Our problem is that we limit it to two different entities (angeloi and daimonoia) and ignore everything else he has said (archons, thronoi, etc).


What did God say about archons and thronoi that causes a problem if we ignore it? And where does he say it, if you don't mind some Scripture references? (Would really like to know.)




BayouHuguenot said:


> That's a morally binding statement for which you don't have any evidence.


There is evidence, the Biblical data I spoke of earlier, with which you never really interact (that I've seen). You take the narratives of Scripture and make the deeds done by Christ and his apostles to be normative for those who aren't Christ, prophets, or his apostles. You have a different view, I guess, where no miracle performed by Christ or his apostles is out of the reach of ordinary laypeople of today to perform. Where does it say in the NT that raising people from the dead can't be done by me or you? And so on.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 28, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> What did God say about archons and thronoi that causes a problem if we ignore it? And where does he say it, if you don't mind some Scripture references? (Would really like to know.)



Ephesians 2:2. All over Ephesians. *archonta tes exousias tou aeros
*
God isn't going to punish us if we ignore it. We just impoverish our theology.


Jeri Tanner said:


> ou take the narratives of Scripture and make the deeds done by Christ and his apostles to be normative for those who aren't Christ, prophets, or his apostles. You have a different view, I guess, where no miracle performed by Christ or his apostles is out of the reach of ordinary laypeople of today to perform.



Correct. I presuppose continuity, not discontinuity.


Jeri Tanner said:


> There is evidence, the Biblical data I spoke of earlier, with which you never really interact (that I've seen).



Could you remind me of those verses?


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## RamistThomist (Dec 28, 2018)

Tom Hart said:


> Best not to claim evidence and then fail to provide it, though.



I am also not going to do other people's homework, either. When I get time, I will get to it. I'm not eager, though, since it will just be dismissed.

I might go there when I am spiritually ready. I just went to some of the sites that expose them and even then I felt spiritually dirty. This isn't like looking for the Ark of the Covenant. This type of material is readily available.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 28, 2018)

Noted occultists Manly P. Hall is founder of the Philosophical Research Society and considered one of the leading authorities on the occult in this century. In Horizon magazine for October-December 1944, pages 76-77, he recalls, “During the last 20-25 years I have had considerable personal experiences with persons who have complicated their lives through dabbling with the Ouija board. Out of every hundred such cases, at least 95 are worse off for the experience…. I know of broken homes, estranged families, and even suicides that can be traced directly to this source” (Encyclopedia of New Age Beliefs).

“Even seasoned occultists and psychic researchers warn against using the Ouija board. Medium Edgar Cayce himself called it ‘dangerous.’ Edmund Gruss [Author of the book The Ouija Board: Doorway to the Occult] refers to medium Donald Page, an ‘exorcist’ of the ‘Christian’ Spiritualis Church, who asserts that ‘the majority of possession cases’ result from involvement with the Ouija board. Page believes it is one of the quickest and easiest ways to become possessed.”

“…Alan Vaughan also points out the following: ‘It is significant, however, that the greatest outcry against the use of Ouijas has come from the Spiritualists not the parapyschologists. In England, Spiritualists groups are petitioning to ban the sale of Ouijas as toys for children- not because of vague dangers of ‘unhealthy effects on naive, suggestible persons’ – but because they fear that the children will become possessed.'”

“…Psychic and spiritist Harold Sherman, president of ESP Research Associates Foundation in Little Rock, Arkansas, agrees: ‘The majority who have become involved with possessive and other entities came by this experience through the ouija board.'”

_National Examiner, 31787 by Robert Stamper)_

I invited a foul horror into my house with a Ouija board. My brother and I got no results when we started to use the psychic device, but suddenly the message indicator mysteriously began to move. The first thing the board told us was that the message was being sent by Seth. Then I made the tragic mistake of telling the board to prove it was real by doing something supernatural. The results were startling and scary. The board told us that the grandfather of one of my best friends would die in a week. The chandelier in the room began to shake violently and the chimes rang like pieces of metal being smashed together. The room became as cold as ice and we were shivering, though the thermometer read 70 degrees. The horrible stench of death filled the room and we couldn't stop gagging and coughing.

Suddenly, the noises stopped and the room was as quiet as a cemetery in the middle of the night. My brother and I looked at each other in terror. We opened the windows to get rid of the stink or rotting flesh and told each other we'd forget the whole thing. But a week later the grandfather of one of my best friends died just as the board has predicted! And from time to time the chandelier would rattle, the room freeze and that awful smell return. I couldn't take it any more. I threw the board away and told my mother about the experience. She told me that once you tamper with a Ouija board, its evil spell will remain forever. And to this day, those terrifying tremors shake the house and the stench of death fills the room.

*Ouija Board Summons Demons*
_(The Sun, 12986)_

A simple Ouija board became a passport to Hell for a family that accidentally summoned a demon into their living room. "I thought it might have been the Devil himself," says John Ravens, father of the tormented family. "When it was over, we were all bleeding and had severe burn marks. Our living room was a disaster area."

"It was supposed to be a joke," says Gloria, the girl's mother. "We were going to make believe we were talking with the spirit world."

Little Lynda, her nine-year-old brother Ronald, and their parents gathered around the board for what they thought was going to be an evening of fun at their home in a Toronto, Canada suburb. "We were just playing around with it when suddenly the planchette that spells out answers began moving by itself," says John. "We were all scared, but then I thought maybe one of the kids was up to tricks. We started asking questions, and this spirit began speaking to us. "Then it asked if it could visit with us. By this time, I was sure someone was playing a joke, and I said yes," he adds.

That's when the nightmare began. "The demon appeared within seconds," says John. "It spun around the room overhead, laughing and cursing at us. "It was surrounded by a ring of fire and the room became so hot, it was like an inferno from Hell." The family describes the demon as red and black with scaly skin and horns. It also had giant bat wings. "Then it suddenly swooped down and attacked us," recalls John, horror flickering over his features. "It started biting each of us on the face and arms. "We tried getting up and running for the door, but every time we did, the creature started clawing us. It was so fast, we couldn't escape from it."

Lynda and brother Ronald were picked up repeatedly and hurled across the room. As they lay helplessly on the floor, the creature pounded on their chests and heads. "It had hooves that dug into my children's faces and skin, marking them badly," says Gloria. The attack lasted for more than an hour before the horrifying demon vanished as quickly as it first appeared. The children were screaming and crying as John pulled them out of the house and drove to a nearby hospital, where they were treated for cuts and burns.

*Demons Use Ouija Board As Gateway To Take Over Soul*
_(The Sun, 22884) by Lewis Clifford._

Terrifying demons freed from other dimensions are preying on helpless human victims. And the gateway used by the grotesque monsters is being kept open by innocent toying with Ouija boards and other tools of the occult, top medical and religious experts caution.

"They are vile creatures of the night," warned Dr. Alberto Gonzalez, of the Pan American Institute of Health. "They exist. They can possess the bodies of their victims and cause normally gentle, nonviolent people to commit outrageous crimes. They can assume other forms some quite ghastly.

"And they are among us in many instances solely because of these sinister toys called Ouija boards." Gonzalez, a psychiatrist and parapsychologist, claims he has found demonic links to several cases of cattle mutilation and human vampirism in Central America.

Says the Rev. Morris Cerullo, president of World Evangelism and author of The Black Side Of Satan, Creation House, Carol Stream, Illinois, 1973. "Many people have related to me weird tales of answers given by the Ouija board. This and other occult games may seem intriguing, but the implications are serious and not to be tampered with. They can lead to dangerous waters indeed.

"Use of a Ouija has even led to violence and even to murder..." Dr. Marta Prohazka of Fairfax, Virginia, is also convinced that spirits can play terrifying destructive games with human behavior. During her practice as psychotherapist and psychoanalyst, she realized that many patients she had considered "hallucinating paranoid schizophrenics" might instead merely be in touch with something invisible to her but visible to them." I came to understand that another plane, or dimension or existence interrelated with our plane or visible manifestation," she said. "By training and expanding consciousness, some individuals gain entrance into that invisible dimension. It seems to some like a window into heaven.

"I also learned that contact with the other dimension can be dangerous, especially if a psychically sensitive person loses his emotional harmony. The window into heaven can then become a window into Hell."

Millions of the plastic oracles are in use in American households, nevertheless. And the eerie messages from beyond they have spelled out have been credited or blamed for marriages, divorces, sickness, misery, mystery or murder. Psychic and medium Anne Rose told the Sun: "Horrible demons have definitely been released by the Ouija board.

"The Ouija board is a vehicle which makes it easy for negative spirits and demonic forces to enter this plane of existence." The Merrillville, Indiana clairvoyant cautioned that evil spirits or demonic forces often gain the trust of people experimenting with Ouija boards by answering several questions truthfully and providing predictions. "Once they have gained the trust of their victims, it is easy for the entity to move in and take over either by strongly influencing that person, or by outright possession," she said. People who are untrained and unsophisticated in the field of the paranormal and supernatural should never play with devices such as the Ouija board, according to the clairvoyant.


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## earl40 (Dec 28, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Noted occultists Manly P. Hall is founder of the Philosophical Research Society and considered one of the leading authorities on the occult in this century. In Horizon magazine for October-December 1944, pages 76-77, he recalls, “During the last 20-25 years I have had considerable personal experiences with persons who have complicated their lives through dabbling with the Ouija board. Out of every hundred such cases, at least 95 are worse off for the experience…. I know of broken homes, estranged families, and even suicides that can be traced directly to this source” (Encyclopedia of New Age Beliefs).
> 
> “Even seasoned occultists and psychic researchers warn against using the Ouija board. Medium Edgar Cayce himself called it ‘dangerous.’ Edmund Gruss [Author of the book The Ouija Board: Doorway to the Occult] refers to medium Donald Page, an ‘exorcist’ of the ‘Christian’ Spiritualis Church, who asserts that ‘the majority of possession cases’ result from involvement with the Ouija board. Page believes it is one of the quickest and easiest ways to become possessed.”
> 
> ...



I dismiss this based on what I believe is superstition. Have you not read the warning on the box?......"This is a game that is fictional and any semblance of reality is purely coincidental."


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## RamistThomist (Dec 28, 2018)

earl40 said:


> I dismiss this based on what I believe is superstition. Have you not read the warning on the box?......"This is a game that is fictional and any semblance of reality is purely coincidental."



You proved my point, which is why I was originally reluctant to bring forth evidence.


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## Tom Hart (Dec 28, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I am also not going to do other people's homework, either. When I get time, I will get to it. I'm not eager, though, since it will just be dismissed.
> 
> I might go there when I am spiritually ready. I just went to some of the sites that expose them and even then I felt spiritually dirty. This isn't like looking for the Ark of the Covenant. This type of material is readily available.



You made the claim. You can attempt to back it up. Otherwise it is merely an assertion. I am sure you would demand the same of others.


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## earl40 (Dec 28, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> You proved my point, which is why I was originally reluctant to bring forth evidence.



Just trying to put a levity into the sad situation this thread went.

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## Tom Hart (Dec 28, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Noted occultists Manly P. Hall is founder of the Philosophical Research Society and considered one of the leading authorities on the occult in this century. In Horizon magazine for October-December 1944, pages 76-77, he recalls, “During the last 20-25 years I have had considerable personal experiences with persons who have complicated their lives through dabbling with the Ouija board. Out of every hundred such cases, at least 95 are worse off for the experience…. I know of broken homes, estranged families, and even suicides that can be traced directly to this source” (Encyclopedia of New Age Beliefs).
> 
> “Even seasoned occultists and psychic researchers warn against using the Ouija board. Medium Edgar Cayce himself called it ‘dangerous.’ Edmund Gruss [Author of the book The Ouija Board: Doorway to the Occult] refers to medium Donald Page, an ‘exorcist’ of the ‘Christian’ Spiritualis Church, who asserts that ‘the majority of possession cases’ result from involvement with the Ouija board. Page believes it is one of the quickest and easiest ways to become possessed.”
> 
> ...



Can I ask why you believe these accounts over those that say the ouija board is not demonic?


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## earl40 (Dec 28, 2018)

Tom Hart said:


> Can I ask why you believe these accounts over those that say the ouija board is not demonic?



They are not demonic but evil, in that one ought to try to usurp the unknown future. It is a lot like the Salem witch hunt stuff. Did they (witches) really have power? No they did not, but if they tried to do what only God can do they were acting evilly.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 28, 2018)

Tom Hart said:


> Can I ask why you believe these accounts over those that say the ouija board is not demonic?



The simple answer is that when people open themselves to dark spirits, we shouldn't be surprised that bad things happen.

The more complicated answer involves epistemology, realism, and nominalism.


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## Taylor (Dec 28, 2018)

earl40 said:


> They are not demonic but evil, in that one ought to try to usurp the unknown future. It is a lot like the Salem witch hunt stuff. Did they (witches) really have power? No they did not, but if they tried to do what only God can do they were acting evilly.



I’m curious about how you view the magicians of Egypt who mimicked Moses or the witch if Endor who summoned Samuel—namely, whether they weilded actual power to perform their wickedness. As with the magicians of Egypt, it did nit appear to be _mere_ mimickery, as they conjured actual serpents (Exodus 7:11-12). Or, when John refers to sorcerers in Revelation 21:8 and 22:15, is he just speaking of those who merely attempt or aspire to such, or is he referring to people who perform actual sorcery?


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## Tom Hart (Dec 28, 2018)

earl40 said:


> They are not demonic but evil, in that one ought to try to usurp the unknown future. It is a lot like the Salem witch hunt stuff. Did they (witches) really have power? No they did not, but if they tried to do what only God can do they were acting evilly.



I would agree with that.


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## Tom Hart (Dec 29, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> The simple answer is that when people open themselves to dark spirits, we shouldn't be surprised that bad things happen.
> 
> The more complicated answer involves epistemology, realism, and nominalism.



Would you say that you might expect these accounts to be true before you read them? (This question can go the other way, too, of course. Do I expect them to be untrue?)

Further, do you believe them in all their details?

And do you believe that people lie about these things, or that they become convinced of something that did not happen? For instance, some of the accounts are from "spiritualist" types, whobsurely would expect some sort of spiritual encounter. Could that not colour their memory?


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## Pergamum (Dec 29, 2018)

At the risk of offending many, I want to assert again this following truth:

-Most 21st Century Reformed Christians are functional deists. They believe that there is a supernatural realm but that supernatural world doesn't interact daily in our lives. That is deism. 

Many of you operate as functional deists. You'll admit that Satan is active, as long as he does not really DO anything that the sinner does not do to himself. 

We fight against (1) Sin, (2) the flesh, and (3) the Devil. While some Charismatics focus too much on the 3rd option, many Reformed downplay the Devil. But the Devil DOES, in fact, fight against us. 

Many Third World believers, on the other hand, are functional animists.


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## Tom Hart (Dec 29, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> -Most 21st Century Reformed Christians are functional deists. They believe that there is a supernatural realm but that supernatural world doesn't interact daily in our lives. That is deism.
> 
> Many of you operate as functional deists.



I would urge you to reconsider this. Not only is it uncharitable -- I think you don't really appreciate the views of the other side -- but there is more to deism than a rejection of certain popular conceptions of supernatural occurrences.

Just as I would not call you a functional animist, I wish you would not call members of Christ's body functional deists.

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## Pergamum (Dec 29, 2018)

Tom Hart said:


> I would urge you to reconsider this. Not only is it uncharitable -- I think you don't really appreciate the views of the other side -- but there is more to deism than a rejection of certain popular conceptions of supernatural occurrences.
> 
> Just as I would not call you a functional animist, I wish you would not call members of Christ's body functional deists.



As evidence, look at Earl's replies above that occultic practices possess no power. I believe this is evidence of a deistic worldview.

We can quote Paul that an idol is nothing in this world and yet Paul and Moses both said, "*They sacrificed to demons, not to God*, To gods they did not know, To new gods, new arrivals That your fathers did not fear," Deuteronomy 32: 16-17.

There are principalities and powers behind false beliefs. Demons control the pagan nations and regions. There are armies of them, hierarchies, and they are still warring against God today.

The list of condemned practices by Moses is: divination, soothsaying, augury, sorcery, use of charms, mediums, wizardry, and necromancy. All of these practices are to exert power over others or to know things not lawful. If they never worked at all, why do so many people resort to them?

It sort of takes the air out of the balloon in Numbers 23:23, when Balaam pronounces, "There is no enchantment against Jacob, no divination against Israel,"

If Balaam cannot exercise any power over anyone, then it is quite unremarkable that he also cannot curse Israel. The point of the story is that curses work, but not on God's people.

Simon is described in Acts 8:9–11,

"There was a man named Simon who had previously practiced magic in the city and amazed the nation of Samaria, saying that he himself was somebody great. They all gave heed to him from the least to the greatest saying, "This man is that power of God which is called Great." And they gave heed to him because for a long time he had amazed them with his magic."

How did he amaze people if there was absolutely nothing to his arts? The Bible does not say that the magic is unreal, only that the magic was opposed to God and that it amazed people (yet is impotent in comparison to the Lord and his power).

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## RamistThomist (Dec 29, 2018)

Tom Hart said:


> Would you say that you might expect these accounts to be true before you read them? (This question can go the other way, too, of course. Do I expect them to be untrue?)



I generally give them the benefit of the doubt. It fits the supernaturalist worldview, and phenomena like this has been universal throughout human history. No doubt some can be telling stories, but since I am not employed by mythbusters there isn't too much I can do about that.


Tom Hart said:


> Further, do you believe them in all their details?



I believe they are reporting details as they experienced them. In the heat of the moment they might have gotten minor facts wrong.


Tom Hart said:


> For instance, some of the accounts are from "spiritualist" types, whobsurely would expect some sort of spiritual encounter. Could that not colour their memory?



Sure. Take a slightly more mundane example. The US govt employed the techniques of George Estabrook to shatter personalities and create multiples (which the CIA admitted on the floor of Congress). Many things these multiples say are unreliable because they have shattered personalities.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 29, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> We can quote Paul that an idol is nothing in this world and yet Paul and Moses both said, "*They sacrificed to [you]demons[/you], not to God*, To gods they did not know, To new gods, new arrivals That your fathers did not fear," Deuteronomy 32: 16-17.



Perg, I agree with everything you are saying, but I think we can sharpen this verse. In Hebrew it is "shedim" (demons). It is from the Akkadian shadu, which means a territorial spirit of the underworld.

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## RamistThomist (Dec 29, 2018)

Tom Hart said:


> I would urge you to reconsider this. Not only is it uncharitable -- I think you don't really appreciate the views of the other side -- but there is more to deism than a rejection of certain popular conceptions of supernatural occurrences.



While we ought to be charitable, nonetheless people here have used literally word-for-word sentences from David Hume.

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## RamistThomist (Dec 29, 2018)

Some more documentation on Ouija from Steve Hays. Steve is neither cessationist nor continuationist. He sees the problems with both. But he is a rigorous thinker and follows the evidence.
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2012/07/susan-blackmores-obe.html
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2017/04/what-enfield-poltergeist-tells-us-about.html
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2014/01/hare-krishna-commits-hara-kiri.html

And while not a Ouija-related incident, this is more pertinent to the OP, and especially as it involves John and Charles Wesley
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2018/08/the-haunting-of-old-epworth-rectory.html


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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 29, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> While we ought to be charitable, nonetheless people here have used literally word-for-word sentences from David Hume.


I will be charitable and simply say that you made a mistake in quoting me with the belief and implication that I meant anything like what David Hume believed.


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## Tom Hart (Dec 29, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> As evidence, look at Earl's replies above that occultic practices possess no power. I believe this is evidence of a deistic worldview.



Define _deism_.


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## Tom Hart (Dec 29, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> While we ought to be charitable, nonetheless people here have used literally word-for-word sentences from David Hume.



That is at least the third time you've mentioned it.

What's the quotation from David Hume? What's the context? Is it really the case that someone here was making the same argument that Hume was making?


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## RamistThomist (Dec 29, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> I will be charitable and simply say that you made a mistake in quoting me with the belief and implication that I meant anything like what David Hume believed.



I don't think you had Hume in mind, but you denied causality in this situation using the same argument Hume used to deny causality in general.


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## Tom Hart (Dec 29, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I generally give them the benefit of the doubt. It fits the supernaturalist worldview...



Why should you not give opposing sources the benefit of the doubt?



BayouHuguenot said:


> ...phenomena like this has been universal throughout human history.



Er... What? What do you mean? That there are supernatural claims across cultures? Should we give them all "the benefit of the doubt"? If not, how do you determine which ones get the benefit of the doubt?

Some problems here.



BayouHuguenot said:


> No doubt some can be telling stories...



_Some_? Tales of magic and spirits have been around for a while. How much are we to believe? Is the risk of some make-believe stories necessary to a "robust demonology"?



BayouHuguenot said:


> I believe they are reporting details as they experienced them. In the heat of the moment they might have gotten minor facts wrong.



Minor facts? Like an icy room or a hot room or physical damage to their bodies and surroundings? It all sounds very detailed and I wonder how they could have got any of it wrong. How about the fact that the demon they saw sounds like it came out of a medieval manuscript... Is that just what demons look like, then?

And it's not like these stories were published "in the heat of the moment." They had time to consider them, write them, and publish them.


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## Tom Hart (Dec 29, 2018)

For those who've been saying that demons are cast out and pushed back as Christianity expands, I'll say that the history of the evangelization of Korea knows no such thing. I have read works by early missionaries to Korea in which they clearly state a belief in traditional spirits (such as demons that cause housefires or that seize people in the dark, etc.) but the missions record makes no mention of the casting out of demons or anything of the sort.

Just a historical note that some might find interesting.

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## RamistThomist (Dec 29, 2018)

Tom Hart said:


> Why should you not give opposing sources the benefit of the doubt?



Depends on the argument. Most of the counter arguments I have seen on here have been "Nuh-uh; that's impossible." There is really not much to say in response to that.


Tom Hart said:


> Er... What? What do you mean? That there are supernatural claims across cultures? Should we give them all "the benefit of the doubt"? If not, how do you determine which ones get the benefit of the doubt?



I believe they are demonic, and I believe that they are manifestations of them. Now take the case of bi-location. I don't think it is metaphysically possible, so in that case it would be demonic deception.


Tom Hart said:


> _Some_? Tales of magic and spirits have been around for a while. How much are we to believe? Is the risk of some make-believe stories necessary to a "robust demonology"?



I would have to see the case in question. There is simply no way I can give a few sentences answer to thousands of years and hundreds of cultures' understanding of the supernatural.


Tom Hart said:


> Minor facts? Like an icy room or a hot room or physical damage to their bodies and surroundings? It all sounds very detailed and I wonder how they could have go any of it wrong.



If you can give facts in question from specific sources, then we might be able to see. Otherwise, I think you are just saying hypotheticals and there really isn't much to say otherwise.


Tom Hart said:


> How about the fact that the demon they saw sounds like it came out of a medieval manuscript... Is that just what demons look like, then?



That's how the demon probably manifested to them. I doubt that's what demons (whatever that word means) looks like. The entity that British special agent Alistair Crowley summoned looked a lot like what we call a Gray Alien.


Tom Hart said:


> And it's not like these stories were published "in the heat of the moment." They had time to consider them, write them, and publish them.



So....what, exactly?


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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 29, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I don't think you had Hume in mind, but you denied causality in this situation using the same argument Hume used to deny causality in general.


Please tell me how I denied causality.


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## Pergamum (Dec 29, 2018)

Tom Hart said:


> For those who've been saying that demons are cast out and pushed back as Christianity expands, I'll say that the history of the evangelization of Korea knows no such thing. I have read works by early missionaries to Korea in which they clearly state a belief in traditional spirits (such as demons that cause housefires or that seize people in the dark, etc.) but the missions record makes no mention of the casting out of demons or anything of the sort.
> 
> Just a historical note that some might find interesting.



This paper proves differently:

https://nirc.nanzan-you.ac.jp/nfile/839

"He rejected Korean shamanism, just as other Christian missionaries rejected magic and wizardry in different mission fields. In the process of iconoclastic encounters with Korean folk religions, however, Anglo-Saxon missionaries took over the mudang role of casting out devils and “evil spirits.”

...Even though Protestant missionaries attacked shamanism, burned down fetishes and talismans dedicated to household spirits, and inspired people to abandon “superstitious” beliefs and behaviors, many Korean Christians retained their traditional animistic world view. In turn, the biblical literalism and field experiences of Protestant missionaries led them to accept a Christian version of exorcisms, although their rationalism and the constitutions of the churches did not acknowledge miraculous healing in modern times. In this sense, their field experiences overrode their backgrounds in modern science and theology.

...Burning fetishes and destroying devil houses When a Korean decided to believe in the “Jesus doctrine,” she was instructed to burn all fetishes dedicated to household spirits. Sometimes she took them to the edge of the village and threw them as far as they could be thrown. In the eyes of missionaries, new converts needed to cut themselves from the past in a symbolic manner—by destroying the fetishes, which the Christians associated with evil spirits and old beliefs (Moore 1896; Collyer 1901; C. A. Clark 1903; Hounshell 1905; Carroll 1906; Owen 1908). When one particular mudang in 1899 gave up her sorcery and decided to become a Christian, she gave the “spiritual garment and little brass implements” to female Korean evangelists in P’yŏngyang (Fish 1899).

...James s. Gale (1863–1937) arrived in Korea in 1888 as a volunteer missionary of the YMCA of the University of Toronto. He joined the Korea Mission of the PCUSA (Presbyterian Church, USA) in 1891. He married the widowed Mrs. Heron in Seoul in 1892. The couple then moved to Wŏnsan, an open port on the East Sea. In 1895 two Korean families became Christians because they heard that the name of Jesus was sufficient to save every believer from the attacks of evil spirits. Gale said, “The idea of possession and demon influence has a great place here in life. The Tonghaks, who had raised such a commotion in the south last year, professed to have power to cast out devils, and that was one cause of their popularity. We rejoice that the name of Jesus is sufficient” (Gale 1895, 230).

...In 1897 Hulbert began to publicize cases of demon possession and reported cases of exorcism through the prayers of Korean Christians (Hulbert 1897 and 1901a).

...Demon possession and christian exorcism: nevius and demon possession in shandong

John L. Nevius, who worked in China from 1854 to 1892, had experienced cases of demon possession from the beginning of his work in Shandong. He was absorbed by the question of whether demon possession still existed in the 112 | Asian Ethnology 69/1 • 2010 later nineteenth century.

He had carefully investigated these cases and gathered the facts and testimony of missionaries and Chinese Christians on the incidents in which they expelled spirits and set the victims free.

The result was his posthumous book, Demon Possession and Allied Themes. Not only was the “Nevius Method” adopted by the Korean missions, but his theory of demon possession and Christian exorcism also influenced the missionaries in Korea. The people of Shandong Province fully believed in demon possession; the belief was a part of Chinese animism or spirit worship. Physical suffering and violent paroxysms attended the victims’ ordeal. When the narratives of demonic possession given in the New Testament were read, therefore, Chinese Christians recognized the correspondence at once. Nevius and other missionaries proceeded with great caution in this matter. As

...Nevius argued that cases of demon possession actually existed in China. He describes those supposedly cured by Chinese Christians, not by the old methods that exorcists had used such as burning charms, frightening with magic spells and incantations, or pricking the body with needles, but by singing hymns and praying to God. Some missionaries testified that they felt themselves “transported back to the days of the Apostles” and were “compelled to believe that the dominion of Satan is by no means broken yet” (Nevius 1896, 71). Nevius insisted that the phenomenon on demon possession could be explained not by contemporary evolutionary and psychological theories, but only by the Bible. In 1930 Charles A. Clark mentioned Nevius’s book on demon possession: Exorcism of evil spirits by Christian workers caused much discussion and divided opinion among the missionaries and the church workers. It is mentioned in the 1895 Report about Wŏnsan particularly."


It sounds like missionary activity in Korea was full of spiritual warfare.

Here is the book by Nevius: https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Posses..._0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1546095500&sr=1-3-fkmr1

Description: A study of demon possession, written by a veteran missionary to China who was initially skeptical of the phenomenon, until he began to study it himself. He begins with a series of cases in China which he personally investigated, followed by the results of a survey sent out to other missionaries in China, and then gives examples from India, Japan, etc. He finds strong correlations with the New Testament accounts, and with other accounts from the ancient world. This is considered by many the classic treatment of the subject. The author also interacts with the various alternative explanations of the phenomena.


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## Tom Hart (Dec 29, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Depends on the argument. Most of the counter arguments I have seen on here have been "Nuh-uh; that's impossible." There is really not much to say in response to that.



Not so. Please do try to actually appreciate what is being said.



BayouHuguenot said:


> I believe they are demonic, and I believe that they are manifestations of them. Now take the case of bi-location. I don't think it is metaphysically possible, so in that case it would be demonic deception.





BayouHuguenot said:


> would have to see the case in question. There is simply no way I can give a few sentences answer to thousands of years and hundreds of cultures' understanding of the supernatural.



Well, I'm glad you're here, then. If I have any questions about what demonic stories might be true, I know whom to ask.



BayouHuguenot said:


> If you can give facts in question from specific sources, then we might be able to see. Otherwise, I think you are just saying hypotheticals and there really isn't much to say otherwise.



I am referring to the sources you quoted earlier.



BayouHuguenot said:


> So....what, exactly?



You said they might have got minor details wrong "in the heat of the moment." I say, What heat?


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## RamistThomist (Dec 29, 2018)

Tom Hart said:


> Not so. Please do try to actually appreciate what is being said.



See any of Earl's comments over the past few years.


Tom Hart said:


> Well, I'm glad you're here, then. If I have any questions about what demonic stories might be true, I know whom to ask.



Steve Hays, a Reformed apologist, has actually done all the homework on this. Ask him.
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/search/label/Occult


Tom Hart said:


> You said they might have got minor details wrong "in the heat of the moment." I say, What heat?



For example, Cathy O'Brien, a former CIA sex-slave and MK-ULTRA victim,
claimed that La. Senator Bennett Johnson told her he was there on the “Philadelphia Experiment” in 1943. While I certainly believe the Philadelphia Experiment is real, I don’t think Johnson was there. Johnson was born in 1932. This would have made him 11 years old. Unlikely he would be privy to a top-secret project.

Unless he actually went back in time in the experiment, but that raises time-travel paradoxes I don’t want to get into.

So in this case I think O'Brien's shattered personality processed the dates wrong (or Johnson was giving disinfo).


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## RamistThomist (Dec 29, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> Please tell me how I denied causality.



If I recall correctly, you said we don't see how the demon leaves (presuming, therefore, it doesn't exist). In other words, we don't see the cause. If you carry the argument further, the cause doesn't exist, either, since you can't see it.


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## Tom Hart (Dec 29, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> This paper proves differently:
> 
> https://nirc.nanzan-you.ac.jp/nfile/839
> 
> ...




Your correction is appreciated. However, I would point out that at least some of those sources seem to say that the Christians were influenced by pagan notions.

I have read James Scarth Gale and he seems to find the traditional beliefs in demons to be silly. The quotation above, I think, is not saying that the demon possession was real, but that the local religious beliefs were false. I could be wrong, but I have read enough of Gale, I think, to understand his view on this.


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## Tom Hart (Dec 29, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I don't think you had Hume in mind, but you denied causality in this situation using the same argument Hume used to deny causality in general.



Still waiting for that quotation.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 29, 2018)

Tom Hart said:


> Still waiting for that quotation.



It's somewhere in this thread.


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## Pergamum (Dec 29, 2018)

Tom Hart said:


> Your correction is appreciated. However, I would point out that at least some of those sources seem to say that the Christians were influenced by pagan notions.
> 
> I have read James Scarth Gale and he seems to find the traditional beliefs in demons to be silly. The quotation above, I think, is not saying that the demon possession was real, but that the local religious beliefs were false. I could be wrong, but I have read enough of Gale, I think, to understand his view on this.


Let's plan a discussion of Nevius' book on Demon Possession in a week or so, shall we? I am making my way through it now. Nevius is revered as wise by all and, therefore, it would be good to discuss his findings here.


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## Tom Hart (Dec 29, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Dig it up. It's somewhere in this thread.



I don't believe you've quoted it, only mentioned that Hume wrote a similar sentence. I think you also ought to show that the argument was the same.


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## Tom Hart (Dec 29, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> Let's plan a discussion of Nevius' book on Demon Possession in a week or so, shall we? I am making my way through it now. Nevius is revered as wise by all and, therefore, it would be good to discuss his findings here.



I'll be sure to add it to my reading list. Nevius seems like a chap I should read.

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## Pergamum (Dec 29, 2018)

One 


Pergamum said:


> Let's plan a discussion of Nevius' book on Demon Possession in a week or so, shall we? I am making my way through it now. Nevius is revered as wise by all and, therefore, it would be good to discuss his findings here.


One rhetorical argument I often find in the missionary literature is to mock and belittle the demons. 

This is not to deny they exist, but to gloat over our victory over them. 

Sometimes later readers then read this as a dismissal of demons entirely, instead of merely a dismissal of the power of demons and shamans and curses over us. 

I once mocked a shaman in a town ceremony where he said he was safe to eat glass and drive swords into his breast once possessed....as long as there was not a stronger spirit nearby. So I told him that I would pray the Holy Spirit would not entirely kill him that day, but only hurt him a little. 

20 minute later he was off to the hospital after a "mishap."

So...what happened? I don't know.

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## Taylor (Dec 29, 2018)

Tom Hart said:


> Still waiting for that quotation.





BayouHuguenot said:


> It's somewhere in this thread.



In the interest of some sort of mediation, I believe @BayouHuguenot is referring to the statement quoted in this post.

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## RamistThomist (Dec 29, 2018)

Taylor Sexton said:


> In the interest of some sort of mediation, I believe @BayouHuguenot is referring to the statement quoted in this post.



I'll retract one thing. It's not a word-for-word copy of Hume. 18th century writers wrote in a stumbling prose. But if anyone wants to work through the principle and the sources
https://www.iep.utm.edu/hume-cau/


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## Tom Hart (Dec 29, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> Let's plan a discussion of Nevius' book on Demon Possession in a week or so, shall we? I am making my way through it now. Nevius is revered as wise by all and, therefore, it would be good to discuss his findings here.



I found a free download on this website.
http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-e...-inductive-study-of-phenomena-of-ou-938.shtml

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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 29, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> If I recall correctly, you said we don't see how the demon leaves (presuming, therefore, it doesn't exist). In other words, we don't see the cause. If you carry the argument further, the cause doesn't exist, either, since you can't see it.


You don't recall correctly. You may have misunderstood what I was saying. You should not be so quick to misunderstand.


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## Tom Hart (Dec 29, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I'll retract one thing. It's not a word-for-word copy of Hume. 18th century writers wrote in a stumbling prose. But if anyone wants to work through the principle and the sources
> https://www.iep.utm.edu/hume-cau/



I seem to remember reading something like what you're talking about somewhere in Hume's _Enquiry._ But I wish to be clear that I think the arguments are not the same. Hume denies all miraculous or supernatural occurrences, while our sister here does not. I have thought it somewhat disingenuous to suggest she might have.

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## RamistThomist (Dec 29, 2018)

Tom Hart said:


> while our sister here does not. I have thought it somewhat disingenuous to suggest she might have.



And I wasn't arguing that she denied the supernatural. I am saying the form of her argument is the same


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## RamistThomist (Dec 29, 2018)

A thought on what angels or demons look like.

vi) In Scripture, angels manifest themselves in roughly three different forms:
a) *Humanoid angels.* These are angels who can pass for humans. They look human. They have solidity. The only thing that gives them away is their supernatural power (e.g. Gen 19:11).
Humanoid angels don't have wings.
b) *Luminous angels.* Sometimes, angels have a humanoid appearance with a nimbic aura. They glow. But they don't have wings.

c) *Cherubim and seraphim.* These have wings. Indeed, they have two or three pair of wings. 
Given the association between wings and fire or lightning, are these wings that look like flames or flames that look like wings? In any case, it's probably no feathers, but something like flickering firelight or electricity. 
Assuming that Isa 6 and Ezk 1 & 10 are representative, the basic distinction seems to be that seraphim are the angelic retinue for the stationary heavenly sanctuary or throne room whereas cherubim are the angelic retinue for the God's mobile throne (cf. Ps 18:10). 
It's not clear if these are different kinds of angels. Since angels are essentially incorporeal, this is merely how they manifest themselves, not how they naturally subsist. 
The cherubim are tetramorphs. They don't have the appearance of a winged-man. Rather, they are hybrids.


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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 29, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> And I wasn't arguing that she denied the supernatural. I am saying the form of her argument is the same


Nope. You'll have to back up a little more. The sentence you're referring to didn't have enough words to have a "form." You just decided to link it to Hume's thought. I explicitly (in a following comment) linked it to John 3:8.https://puritanboard.com/threads/ghosts-and-haunted-houses.96948/page-4#post-1185280


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## RamistThomist (Dec 29, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> Nope. You'll have to back up a little more. The sentence you're referring to didn't have enough words to have a "form." You just decided to link it to Hume's thought. I explicitly (in a following comment) linked it to John 3:8.https://puritanboard.com/threads/ghosts-and-haunted-houses.96948/page-4#post-1185280



Post #112



> But you didn’t see what happened; you can’t know with any certainty what happened.



That's logically fallacious. There are a lot of things I don't see but I can speak with logical certainty about. And the Bible tells us a lot about Rephaim, Shedim, Nephilim, Lilith and the Tree Snake she holds, archons, thronoi, unclean spirits, Watchers, etc. I haven't seen any of them (I've felt an unclean presence, though).


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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 29, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Post #112
> 
> 
> 
> That's logically fallacious. There are a lot of things I don't see but I can speak with logical certainty about. And the Bible tells us a lot about Rephaim, Shedim, Nephilim, Lilith and the Tree Snake she holds, archons, thronoi, unclean spirits, Watchers, etc. I haven't seen any of them (I've felt an unclean presence, though).


I don't know what's so hard about understanding this; likely it's my ineptness at speaking clearly. I'll try one more time.

What I meant by my statement "you didn’t see what happened; you can’t know with any certainty what happened.You and I cannot see into the spiritual realm":

If there is a situation going on where a person seems to be demonized, the weapons of one's warfare would be prayer and God's word, with the hope that God will grant freedom and repentance. It was only given to Christ and his apostles to authoritatively identify a demon, speak to a demon, and cast out a demon through commands to the demon. This is because "we can't see what is happening; we can't know with any certainty what is happening; you and I cannot see into the spiritual realm" (to change the quote a little). By "know with any certainty" I meant know infallibly. I.e., it has not been given to us to know infallibly what is going on in the spiritual realm, or to deal with it as Christ and his apostles did. One can surmise, and be right, but the response to any such situation is God's word and prayer for such a person. These are assertions that you will not agree with since we believe differently.

I think that Christ won such a victory over the evil spiritual realm that we may rejoice that we have been given such powerful weapons of warfare against the enemy. Prayer and God's word! Every lowly believer can engage in effective spiritual warfare against the enemy of our souls (and the enemy of our children's souls, and our neighbors' souls, and so on). The church has been given this authority over Satan, and the weapons are at hand to engage in the battle. So refreshing, so encouraging, thank God we don't have to read volumes of esoteric materials and delve into dark matters. Thank God for the victory he wrought through his Son. "Hear him."

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## earl40 (Dec 29, 2018)

Taylor Sexton said:


> I’m curious about how you view the magicians of Egypt who mimicked Moses or the witch if Endor who summoned Samuel—namely, whether they weilded actual power to perform their wickedness. As with the magicians of Egypt, it did nit appear to be _mere_ mimickery, as they conjured actual serpents (Exodus 7:11-12). Or, when John refers to sorcerers in Revelation 21:8 and 22:15, is he just speaking of those who merely attempt or aspire to such, or is he referring to people who perform actual sorcery?



Tricks pure and simple tricks. Only God can do the things either immediately or through mediums like Moses and The Apostles. Our faith is based on The Resurrection and if satan could raise the dead, or do miracles, our basis for faith would be vain. The theology of Nicodemus was perfect on the point that unless one is from God *no one* could do what Jesus did.


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## Taylor (Dec 29, 2018)

earl40 said:


> Tricks pure and simple tricks.



So when Scripture says that the magicians of Egypt conjured serpents, they weren't actually serpents?

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## RamistThomist (Dec 29, 2018)

Taylor Sexton said:


> So when Scripture says that the magicians of Egypt conjured serpents, they weren't actually serpents?



And Moses' staff ate up their sleight-of-hand tricks, on top of that!


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## RamistThomist (Dec 29, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> What I meant by my statement "you didn’t see what happened; you can’t know with any certainty what happened.You and I cannot see into the spiritual realm"



Of course people can't physically "see" into the spiritual realm. It's by definition invisible. If that's what you are getting at, I agree.


Jeri Tanner said:


> By "know with any certainty" I meant know infallibly. I.e., it has not been given to us to know infallibly what is going on in the spiritual realm



Infallibism is a pretty steep criterion for knowledge.


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## Dachaser (Dec 29, 2018)

earl40 said:


> I dismiss this based on what I believe is superstition. Have you not read the warning on the box?......"This is a game that is fictional and any semblance of reality is purely coincidental."


On what scripture do you take the position then that there can be no demonic/supernatural activities happening in this present time?
My contention would be it will be on the rise the closer to the return of Jesus, and also those who get hooked on various drugs and alcohol who are unsaved can be unwittingly opening the doorway into the world of the occult.

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## Dachaser (Dec 29, 2018)

earl40 said:


> Tricks pure and simple tricks. Only God can do the things either immediately or through mediums like Moses and The Apostles. Our faith is based on The Resurrection and if satan could raise the dead, or do miracles, our basis for faith would be vain. The theology of Nicodemus was perfect on the point that unless one is from God *no one* could do what Jesus did.


Satan and His demons still operate though in the realm of the supernatural, as they still are beings that exist outside of what we know as physical reality!

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## TheInquirer (Dec 29, 2018)

> Tricks pure and simple tricks. Only God can do the things either immediately or through mediums like Moses and The Apostles.



Consider the following though:

1) The supernatural fire from heaven that consumed Job's livestock after God gave Satan permission to go after him (Job 1:16)

2) The second beast of Revelation that performs great signs and makes fire come down from heaven (Rev. 13:13-14)

3) The warning against false prophets who do signs and wonders (Deut. 13:1-3, Mt. 24:24)

All of these are done in order to deceive but the language seems to suggest the signs and wonders are real.

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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Dec 29, 2018)

Quick question: do angels still minister to God's people?

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## Dachaser (Dec 29, 2018)

TheInquirer said:


> Consider the following though:
> 
> 1) The supernatural fire from heaven that consumed Job's livestock after God gave Satan permission to go after him (Job 1:16)
> 
> ...


Jesus stated to us that there will be false messiah who would even be able to do signs and wonders if possible to call away even the elect, so must be some type of real supernatural workings going on!
Matthew 24:24


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## earl40 (Dec 29, 2018)

Taylor Sexton said:


> So when Scripture says that the magicians of Egypt conjured serpents, they weren't actually serpents?



They were serpents, but Penn and Teller would be able to explain how they did it.


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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 29, 2018)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> Quick question: do angels still minister to God's people?


Ryan, could you provide the Scripture references that inspire your question?


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## Taylor (Dec 29, 2018)

earl40 said:


> They were serpents, but Penn and Teller would be able to explain how they did it.



So when Scripture says that the magicians "did the same" as Aaron (Exodus 7:11), it is being deceptive?

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## earl40 (Dec 29, 2018)

Taylor Sexton said:


> So when Scripture says that the magicians "did the same" as Aaron (Exodus 7:11), it is being deceptive?



So were they from God?


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Dec 29, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> Ryan, could you provide the Scripture references that inspire your question?


Sorry, I don't have time, but the references are all over the Bible. I'm wondering how they fit into the theology compared to fallen angels.


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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 29, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> On what scripture do you take the position then that there can be no demonic/supernatural activities happening in this present time?
> My contention would be it will be on the rise the closer to the return of Jesus, and also those who get hooked on various drugs and alcohol who are unsaved can be unwittingly opening the doorway into the world of the occult.


David, Earl has not said there is no satanic/supernatural activity. Careful reading and thinking!


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## Taylor (Dec 29, 2018)

earl40 said:


> So were they from God?



The source of these acts has not been a part of what I've been asking. _My_ question regards whether what occurred was _real_.

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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 29, 2018)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> Sorry, I don't have time, but the references are all over the Bible. I'm wondering how they fit into the theology compared to fallen angels.


Your original question was do angels still minister to God’s people. But a specific example would help. Are you asking if we are to expect that they might appear from time to time as Michael did to Daniel and Gabriel did to Mary? Or are you speaking of something along the line of the Frank Peretti books where they are constantly in action on behalf of Christians but we aren’t aware of it?


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## Dachaser (Dec 29, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> David, Earl has not said there is no satanic/supernatural activity. Careful reading and thinking!


Unless I have really misunderstood him, his take seems to be though that there is not really anything magical or supernatural going on, as Satan and demons have no real powers now. They just are doing a mental trick and illusions to make us think that they are doing something.


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## Dachaser (Dec 29, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> Your original question was do angels still minister to God’s people. But a specific example would help. Are you asking if we are to expect that they might appear from time to time as Michael did to Daniel and Gabriel did to Mary? Or are you speaking of something along the line of the Frank Peretti books where they are constantly in action on behalf of Christians but we aren’t aware of it?


I would tend to see it more along the second position on how they interact with us now.


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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 29, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> Unless I have really misunderstood him, his take seems to be though that there is not really anything magical or supernatural going on, as Satan and demons have no real powers now. They just are doing a mental trick and illusions to make us think that they are doing something.


I think Earl believes that Satan goes about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8). And that he has great cunning and devices against the church and believers (2 Corinthians 2:11); and that he tempts believers (1 Corinthians 7:1).

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## earl40 (Dec 29, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> I think Earl believes that Satan goes about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8). And that he has great cunning and devices against the church and believers (2 Corinthians 2:11); and that he tempts believers (1 Corinthians 7:1).



Indeed this is true. we have is a difference of opinion of satan's actual power.


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## Tom Hart (Dec 29, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> And I wasn't arguing that she denied the supernatural. I am saying the form of her argument is the same



This is what @Jeri Tanner wrote:



Jeri Tanner said:


> But you didn’t see what happened; you can’t know with any certainty what happened. We shouldn’t make pronouncements about what happens in the spiritual realm, and don’t have to. The secret things belong to the Lord. That’s all some of us are trying to say. If the man becomes a believer or is strengthened in his faith, and these troubling events go away, then praise God. He uses our prayers and our words. He is good.



This is what you said:



BayouHuguenot said:


> David Hume said literally the exact same thing to prove that "cause and effect" do not exist.



If you were not attempting to tie her thought in with David Hume's (and the context shows that she hardly holds to a view of the supernatural that is comparable to Hume's) then what was the point of your comment?


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## Tom Hart (Dec 29, 2018)

Taylor Sexton said:


> The source of these acts has not been a part of what I've been asking. _My_ question regards whether what occurred was _real_.



What do you mean by _real_?


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## Tom Hart (Dec 29, 2018)

Again, more charity please.

No one here is a deist. No one denies satanic/demonic activity. The question is the extent of that power and the way in which it is exercised.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 29, 2018)

Tom Hart said:


> then what was the point of your comment?



I understood her to be saying, since we can't see the cause we can't comment on it. Hume said since we can't see the cause, we can't comment on it (that's the weaker thesis of Hume; the stronger thesis is that he denied it altogether). 

But even if that isn't what she meant, and I will grant that, my larger point stands: there is a lot of stuff I can't see (like God's essence) that I can comment on. There is a lot of stuff the Bible doesn't address (like women takin communion) that we reason inferentially from the narrative (assuming, like I do, that narratives contain teaching and imitation).


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## RamistThomist (Dec 29, 2018)

Tom Hart said:


> The question is the extent of that power and the way in which it is exercised.



Fair enough. So that raises the next question, which Taylor alluded to, will Antichrist do signs and wonders, or will it all be Mandela effect type mind tricks?

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## Tom Hart (Dec 29, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I understood her to be saying, since we can't see the cause we can't comment on it. Hume said since we can't see the cause, we can't comment on it (that's the weaker thesis of Hume; the stronger thesis is that he denied it altogether).
> 
> But even if that isn't what she meant, and I will grant that, my larger point stands: there is a lot of stuff I can't see (like God's essence) that I can comment on. There is a lot of stuff the Bible doesn't address (like women takin communion) that we reason inferentially from the narrative (assuming, like I do, that narratives contain teaching and imitation).



Were you or were you not trying to link her views to Hume's? If you were, you were being disingenuous, unfair. If you were not then the mention of Hume was entirely pointless.

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## RamistThomist (Dec 29, 2018)

Tom Hart said:


> Were you or were you not trying to link her views to Hume's? If you were, you were being disingenuous, unfair. If you were not then the mention of Hume was entirely pointless.



I brought up Hume for clarification. that's what happens in a discussion. We find out where some of our earlier understandings were wrong. My initial reaction was that her comment seemed very similar to Hume--I then pressed that point. I admit that parts of my understanding were wrong. I'm not sure how that's disengenous.


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## Taylor (Dec 29, 2018)

Tom Hart said:


> What do you mean by _real_?



Are there multiple meanings?

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## RamistThomist (Dec 29, 2018)

Taylor Sexton said:


> Are there multiple meanings?



This is what I was getting at with my allusions to realism, nominalism, and metaphysics. I have a Patristic metaphysics (see my avatar, Mar Ephrem the Syrian), so I would take the "real" in the following sense. This means I can understand manifestations of phenomena (whether angelic or demonic) without worrying about what real means.

Logoi (per Maximus the Confessor) is the presence of grace in nature. Nature contains energy as form in matter. The Form of the Good is the Form within which all others are synthesized. It is the mind of God, Logos, the Wisdom of the Old Testament.

Nominalism, by contrast, severed earth from heaven. It sees reality as disparate objects. There is no way, then, that the Form could be manifested in space and time.

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## Tom Hart (Dec 29, 2018)

Taylor Sexton said:


> Are there multiple meanings?



You appear to misunderstand my question. I am simply asking for clarification.

Speaking of the works of Pharaoh's magicians, you asked if they were real. Do you mean _real_ as opposed to an illusion? I think the Scripture speaks plainly enough to say that the snakes, for instance, were _real_ in that sense. Or do you mean _real_ as in _really supernatural_? Or merely a _real deception_?


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## Taylor (Dec 29, 2018)

Tom Hart said:


> ...do you mean _real_ as in _really supernatural_? Or merely a _real deception_?



I thought I was being rather clear that I was asking Earl whether the feats were real or deception. In this context, a "real deception" is an oxymoron. I suppose one could say "real deception" to say that something "really is" a deception, but that is obviously not what I am saying.

In other words, I am not sure what needs clarifying here. Did the magicians in actual fact conjure actual snakes with actual "dark arts," or didn't they? Of course, I guess you're going to ask me next to define "actual." In that case, I am not sure what to say. I am not trying to trick anyone here. I am just curious what people make of these happenings in Scripture. That is all.

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## Tom Hart (Dec 30, 2018)

Taylor Sexton said:


> I thought I was being rather clear that I was asking Earl whether the feats were real or deception. In this context, a "real deception" is an oxymoron. I suppose one could say "real deception" to say that something "really is" a deception, but that is obviously not what I am saying.
> 
> In other words, I am not sure what needs clarifying here. Did the magicians in actual fact conjure actual snakes with actual "dark arts," or didn't they? Of course, I guess you're going to ask me next to define "actual." In that case, I am not sure what to say. I am not trying to trick anyone here. I am just curious what people make of these happenings in Scripture. That is all.



Your question was brief, and I did not understand what you meant. I am not asking for a definition of a word so much as requesting that you clarify your question.

What you appeared to be asking Earl earlier was whether the magicians were performing really supernatural feats or mere illusions. Earl said that while the serpents were not produced by supernatural means, they were no illusions. Then you still asked if the feats were real. It's still not obvious to me where your question was going.

_Real deception_ was perhaps unclear. By that I meant a thing that is real (that is, not illusory) but a thing not really that which it is claimed to be. So, _really a deception_.

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## Pergamum (Dec 30, 2018)

*A reminder not to under-estimate the powers of evil:*

In addition to the examples given by Jim:


"1) The supernatural fire from heaven that consumed Job's livestock after God gave Satan permission to go after him (Job 1:16)
2) The second beast of Revelation that performs great signs and makes fire come down from heaven (Rev. 13:13-14)
3) The warning against false prophets who do signs and wonders (Deut. 13:1-3, Mt. 24:24)"

And in addition to the fact that:

---the Egyptian magicians produced snakes (and Scriptures tell us they are snakes),
---and that Scripture says that the magicians "did the same" as Aaron (Exodus 7:11), and so it was not a deception,

....below are some further examples of the great power of the Devil and his demons:



----Satan, if allowed by God, can even influence people’s speech (Matthew 16).
----Satan desired to sift Peter like wheat and this led to his falling. So..Satan did, in fact, do some sifting.
----Demons caused physical pain to folks in the NT.
----Satan has blinded the eyes of unbelievers.
----A lying spirit was sent to punish Achab, King of Israel. God permitted this, of course, but the demon was still given great power.
----The Apostle Paul's thorn in the flesh was a "messenger of satan" meant to hurt him.


Remember Ephesians 6:12:
---"Our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against Principalities and Powers, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places."

It is foolish to state that we are not truly wrestling, or that the wrestling is merely pantomime. The devil is real, and is active, and the demons were fallen angels and so retain the powers of angels (though limited in their permissions to act).

Nobody denies that God is in control. The Devil is God's Devil and can only act upon God's permission. But that is only one side of the coin that the Reformed have often stressed in an unbalanced way. They forget that the Devil and his demons are still dangerous and truly active.

The Ancient and Medieval period stressed one aspect and the post-Reformation/Enlightenment era stressed the other, but neither is balanced without the other.

I would again assert that much of our thinking on these matters is more influenced by the Enlightenment than by the Bible.


Examples of powers I believe the demons have exercised:

---I believe that curses sometimes work.
---I believe people can be demonized or bothered.
---I believe the ancient oracles had some power (Delphi, etc),
---I believe regional deities had some power to entrap the masses,
---I believe the Great God Pan did perhaps appear to the runner Pheidippides as it was reported, and that the new cult of Pan that was founded as a result of the Greek victory at Marathon was instigated by demons. 
---The gods aided their peoples in times of war in exchange for devotion.
---I believe a demon appeared to Muhammad to give him his revelations. Even he suspected as much.
---I believe the apparitions of the Virgin Mary are sometimes real, just as other apparitions, for Scriptures warns us against this very thing, "But even if we or an angel from heaven shoudl preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a divine curse!" If such a thing were an impossibility, why would the Apostle Paul write Galatian 1:8 as if it were possible.
---I believe when Antichrist comes he will yield great and wondrous powers to deceive the masses. Whether this is real or not...I am not sure... but he will even be given power to give breath to the image of the beast (only God can raise the dead and so I assume that this must be illusion, in this case).
Revelation 13:15: He was granted _power_ to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed."

---

*CONCLUSION:*

We ARE truly wrestling against the powers of evil....

And our opponent is still very strong, even though he has already been stricken with a mortal wound.


*"The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God"*

That is pretty powerful!

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## Tom Hart (Dec 30, 2018)

@Pergamum

Your post is so long that it would take more time than I have to deal with it. Here are just a few thoughts and questions.



Pergamum said:


> I believe the ancient oracles had some power (Delphi, etc)



I'm just curious why you think this. Are there historical examples of events that you are referencing?



Pergamum said:


> I believe the Great God Pan appeared to the runner Pheidippides as reported and the new cult of Pan as a result fo their victory at Marathon was instigated by demons. The gods aided their peoples in times of war.



Is this the case in all wars where divine support is claimed? Wouldn't this pit demon against demon? Is any warfare still today directed by demons? I'm not trying to corner you, just trying to figure out your position.



Pergamum said:


> "But even if we or an angel from heaven shoudl preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a divine curse!" If such a thing were an impossibility, why would the Apostle Paul write Galatian 1:8.



Paul is speaking hypothetically. Compare 1 Cor. 13:1.


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## Pergamum (Dec 30, 2018)

Tom Hart said:


> @Pergamum
> 
> Your post is so long that it would take more time than I have to deal with it. Here are just a few thoughts and questions.
> 
> ...



First, *ABOUT ORACLES: * I believe I can dig up examples of pagan prophets who have correctly predicted things. Or have had prophetic dreams. Or have had myths of the future.

Some examples would be the many myths held by tribal peoples about the appearance of white men coming to bring the "words of life" or begin a new age. This has happened a lot here in Papua.

Even wikipedia acknowledges this strange phenomenon under the heading "White Gods" and these cultures almost always have a prediction of a return of these white gods: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_gods. This has aided missionary work in many lands (and also aided the Conquistadors as well when they thought Cortez was the return of Quetzelcoatl and the Inca treated Pizarro and his men like the Viracochas).

Bernal, the priest who traveled with Cortez, noted that the Mexicali’s predicted that Quezacoatl would return on the very day that Cortez and his man landed. They predicted he would be white and have a beard. The locals did not grow beards and were not white.

*ABOUT THE GOD PAN:* Yes, I believe the regional gods vie for territory and are jealous of one another. Do we expect demons to play well on a team? They are full of hate, greed, envy, and deceit. Do we expect them not to use this on each other?

As far as they are united and put into a hierarchy, this is out of fear. They are fearful servants, serving out of fear.

A house divided against itself cannot stand. And their house will not stand.

Those in hell will hate and blame one another. The gnashing of teeth will be upon one another physically as well, for we see this in the lowest degradation of mankind in cannibalism. Cannibalism is a forestaste of the sinner in hell.

The regional demons controls their nations and peoples and try to position them for power.



*Are the miracles of demons real miracles?* I am not positive, but they are close enough for us not to under-estimate their power. Both Aquinas and Augustine thought so. I agree with Aquinas by answering both YES and NO to this question.

In 83 Quaestiones Augustine says, “It often happens that miracles worked by means of the magical arts are similar to the miracles worked through the servants of God.”

And this is quoted by Aquinas's Summa in Part 1, Question 144, article 4: The Attacks of the Bad Angels, where he says,

"I respond: As is clear from what was said above (q. 110, a. 4), if ‘miracle’ is taken in the proper sense, then neither demons nor any other creature can work miracles—only God can, since a miracle, properly speaking, is something done outside the entire order of created nature, and every power belonging to a creature is contained within that order.

However, ‘miracle’ is sometimes used in a broad sense for something that exceeds human power and understanding. And given this sense, demons can perform ‘miracles’, i.e., works that astonish men insofar as they exceed their power and understanding. For even a man, to the extent that he does something that lies beyond the power and understanding of another man, inspires in that other man admiration at what he does, so that it seems that in some sense a miracle has been performed.

Notice, however, that even though demonic works of this sort, which seem like miracles to us, do not satisfy the true notion of a miracle, they are nonetheless real entities in certain cases.

For instance, through the power of demons the Pharaoh’s magicians made genuine snakes and frogs (Exodus 7:12 and 8:7).

And as Augustine says in De Civitate Dei 20, “When the fire fell from heaven and consumed Job’s household at one blow along with his herds of cattle, and when because of a storm the house collapsed and killed his children, all of which were works of Satan, these things were not imaginary.”

Linked here: https://www3.nd.edu/~afreddos/summa-translation/Part 1/st1-ques114.pdf



Finally, *was the Apostle Paul speaking hypothetically?*

NO, I don't think the Apostle Paul was speaking hypothetically. I believe the devil and demons HAVE appeared as angels of light throughout history to deceive mankind.


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## Pergamum (Dec 30, 2018)

*Getting back to the OP on haunted places:*

"Biblical examples of the types of demonic attachment are reportedly seen in people (through demonization), animals (e.g., the pigs in Mark 5:11-13), and idols (1 Cor. 10:20). 

There are several passages which appear to relate demons to territories. In the OT, the concept of gods of the nations exercising power in specific geographic localities, such as the gods of thehigh places (some 63 times in the NIV, including Num. 26:30; Deut. 33:29; 1 Kings 3:2; 2 Kings 21:3; 2 Chron. 11:15; Ps. 78:58; Isa. 15:2; Jer. 7:31; Ezek. 6:6; Hos. 10:8; Amos 7:9); the ‘gods’ of the hills vs ‘gods’ of the plains (1 Kings 20:23); the idea that gods could be established in new locations (2 Kings 17:29-31), and the linking in Deut 32:17 of all false gods to demons. The most commonly cited example is Daniel 10-11:1, in which the princes of Persia and Greece appear to be demons in charge of the respective geopolitical units. (9) 

We see other possible examples in the LXX of Deut. 32:8, which states that the nations set according to the number of angels of God. Finally, we note that another example given is the demons begging Jesus not to send them out of an area (Mark 5:10)." https://www.lausanne.org/content/territorial-spirits


It appears that demons often focus on particular spots or places. Thus, sacred places may be said to be the particular dwelling place of a particular demon (i.e. haunted).


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## RamistThomist (Dec 30, 2018)

In Book 8 of City of God Augustine says Hermes Trismegistus correctly prophecies his country's destruction. Now, the only quibble I have with that is dating and authorship, as exactly who Trismegistus was is a problem in modern scholarship


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## Taylor (Dec 30, 2018)

Tom Hart said:


> Your question was brief, and I did not understand what you meant. I am not asking for a definition of a word so much as requesting that you clarify your question.
> 
> What you appeared to be asking Earl earlier was whether the magicians were performing really supernatural feats or mere illusions. Earl said that while the serpents were not produced by supernatural means, they were no illusions. Then you still asked if the feats were real. It's still not obvious to me where your question was going.
> 
> _Real deception_ was perhaps unclear. By that I meant a thing that is real (that is, not illusory) but a thing not really that which it is claimed to be. So, _really a deception_.



Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification, brother. My apologies for not understanding what was being asked.

But, like I said earlier, at the moment I don't really have a dog in this fight, as I consider myself in general a cessationist, although the happenings surrounding the magicians, the witch of Endor, etc., do interest me in regards to their import for today. I will study more about it in the meantime.


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## Tom Hart (Dec 30, 2018)

Taylor Sexton said:


> Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification, brother. My apologies for not understanding what was being asked.



No problem. My question was unclear as well.



Taylor Sexton said:


> Endor



I don't know why you are bringing Ewoks into this all of a sudden, but you'll get no complaints from this quarter.

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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 30, 2018)

It’s the Lord’s day and I know we need to be circumspect in all things debatey on this day.  I’d like to just toss in this one question for thought and perhaps discussion tomorrow: what was accomplished according to Colossians 2:15, “_And_ having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” This is something that happened in time and place.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 30, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> “_And_ having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” This is something that happened in time and place.



Yes. But he also tells us we are still warring against them. And at least one principality is going to be fully operative when Revelation 13 gets here.


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## Pergamum (Dec 30, 2018)

Already/Not yet.

D-Day has happened. But we are still mopping up.


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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 30, 2018)

I believe Ephesians 6:12! So I agree that Satan is still the active and powerful foe of the church. That said, what are the weapons of our warfare against him?


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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 30, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> Already/Not yet.
> 
> D-Day has happened. But we are still mopping up.


What specificallly happened on D-day? What was the extent of Christ’s making an open show of principalities, triumphing over them, spoiling them? Did it make any difference between Satan’s activity in the OT and during Christ’s earthly ministry, and Satan’s activity after the cross?


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## Pergamum (Dec 30, 2018)

Christ won the victory, but then ascended and gave the Great Commission to His disciples and told us to take over the rest of the world. 

Unless all demons were rounded up during Christ's earthly ministry, I don't see why we need to believe that demon possesssion ended at that time.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 30, 2018)

Was Satan bound with a bungee cord?


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## RamistThomist (Dec 30, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> Unless all demons were rounded up during Christ's earthly ministry, I don't see why we need to believe that demon possesssion ended at that time



Even then, going from by conversations Christ had with some demons, most of those demons weren't finally eradicated. They begged Christ not to send them to the Abyss. Most of them leave a human, look for another host, and then try to come back to the human. That's why evangelism is so important

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## Pergamum (Dec 30, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Even then, going from by conversations Christ had with some demons, most of those demons weren't finally eradicated. They begged Christ not to send them to the Abyss. Most of them leave a human, look for another host, and then try to come back to the human. That's why evangelism is so important



It is still unclear to me how that works. The word Tartarus is used by Peter for the place of prison for some fallen angels and it appears there is no coming back for them. Is the Abyss the same place? Do we slowly put away the spirits in prison as the gospel spreads? And if so, how can you hold to a premil view and not a postmil view? Unless those spirits can pop out at the end for a final rebellion?

But yes, I agree that the demons were still active after the earthly ministry of Christ and the Apostles. After all, the Apostles did not go to ALL the ethne of the world.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 30, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> The word Tartarus is used by Peter for the place of prison for some fallen angels and it appears there is no coming back for them. Is the Abyss the same place?



I don't know. Tartarus seems to imply they are never getting out. Yet in Revelation the Abyss is opened and Apollo leads the demons out.


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Dec 30, 2018)

I am actually pretty convinced our house is haunted. Sometimes I feel like I'm being watched, we've been attacked, we hear strange sounds at night, and there just seems to be a presence of evil lurking around.

Thankfully we identified the demon, but he is here to stay. He goes by the name of Milo. He's about four years old, has four legs, and is a tan and white color. He likes to eat cat food and chase lizards. Oh yeah, and he sleeps all the time, so we're not too worried.

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## Pergamum (Dec 30, 2018)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> I am actually pretty convinced our house is haunted. Sometimes I feel like I'm being watched, we've been attacked, we hear strange sounds at night, and there just seems to be a presence of evil lurking around.
> 
> Thankfully we identified the demon, but he is here to stay. He goes by the name of Milo. He's about four years old, has four legs, and is a tan and white color. He likes to eat cat food and chase lizards. Oh yeah, and he sleeps all the time, so we're not too worried.


You're mistaking Gremlins and spooks. Don't feed him after midnight.


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## Stephen L Smith (Dec 31, 2018)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Was Satan bound with a bungee cord?


No, probably Plasma Rope


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## RamistThomist (Dec 31, 2018)

Stephen L Smith said:


> No, probably Plasma Rope



Adamantium chain


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## Dachaser (Dec 31, 2018)

Jeri Tanner said:


> I think Earl believes that Satan goes about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8). And that he has great cunning and devices against the church and believers (2 Corinthians 2:11); and that he tempts believers (1 Corinthians 7:1).


But that he has no real supernatural powers, nor do any of the demonic is my understanding of his position.


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## Dachaser (Dec 31, 2018)

earl40 said:


> Indeed this is true. we have is a difference of opinion of satan's actual power.


You do not see him as having any real inherit powers now, correct?


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## Dachaser (Dec 31, 2018)

Taylor Sexton said:


> I thought I was being rather clear that I was asking Earl whether the feats were real or deception. In this context, a "real deception" is an oxymoron. I suppose one could say "real deception" to say that something "really is" a deception, but that is obviously not what I am saying.
> 
> In other words, I am not sure what needs clarifying here. Did the magicians in actual fact conjure actual snakes with actual "dark arts," or didn't they? Of course, I guess you're going to ask me next to define "actual." In that case, I am not sure what to say. I am not trying to trick anyone here. I am just curious what people make of these happenings in Scripture. That is all.


The Magicians in Egypt changed wooden sticks into snakes, correct?

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## Dachaser (Dec 31, 2018)

Pergamum said:


> Already/Not yet.
> 
> D-Day has happened. But we are still mopping up.


The Kingdom is here in part, but at His Second coming, will be then in Full here.


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## Dachaser (Dec 31, 2018)

Taylor Sexton said:


> Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification, brother. My apologies for not understanding what was being asked.
> 
> But, like I said earlier, at the moment I don't really have a dog in this fight, as I consider myself in general a cessationist, although the happenings surrounding the magicians, the witch of Endor, etc., do interest me in regards to their import for today. I will study more about it in the meantime.


Jesus did Himself warn us about false Messiahs in the end days who were doing signs and wonders, if possible, would deceive even the elect themselves!

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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Dec 31, 2018)

So Satan prowls like a lion to devour, but can't devour anyone? Also, what are his darts that we are to extinguish? As well, per Revelation it was Satan who had believers put in prison. Just my quick thoughts.


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## Dachaser (Dec 31, 2018)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> So Satan prowls like a lion to devour, but can't devour anyone? Also, what are his darts that we are to extinguish? As well, per Revelation it was Satan who had believers put in prison. Just my quick thoughts.


We are limited to 3, maybe 4 dimensions, but what if Satan and His ilk operate and exist in many more dimensions?


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## RamistThomist (Dec 31, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> We are limited to 3, maybe 4 dimensions, but what if Satan and His ilk operate and exist in many more dimensions?



Modern physics has like at least 9 or 10 dimensions. Granted, we know next to nothing about them


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## earl40 (Jan 1, 2019)

Dachaser said:


> You do not see him as having any real inherit powers now, correct?



Of course I see the devil as having real power. Every time you or I sin we see the result of that power.


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## RamistThomist (Jan 1, 2019)

also, what we mean by power isn't necessarily what someone in the ancient or NT world meant by it. Just something to think about.
https://tentsofshem.wordpress.com/2017/03/12/the-power-of-god-review/


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## Jeri Tanner (Jan 1, 2019)

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> So Satan prowls like a lion to devour, but can't devour anyone? Also, what are his darts that we are to extinguish? As well, per Revelation it was Satan who had believers put in prison. Just my quick thoughts.


Hey Ryan, I don’t think you’ll have seen anyone on the thread deny any of those things, or anything else that the Scriptures teach and equip the church with regarding Satan’s activity. I have seen a staunch belief confirmed of everything taught therein.


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Jan 1, 2019)

Jeri Tanner said:


> Hey Ryan, I don’t think you’ll have seen anyone on the thread deny any of those things, or anything else that the Scriotures teach and equip the church with regarding Satan’s activity. I have seen a staunch belief confirmed of everything taught therein.


Gotcha. Thanks!


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## JTB.SDG (Jan 2, 2019)

Don't have time to read all of this but skimmed a bit. So, not so much on ghosts but on demon possession...Another has pointed out I think well that the demoniac at Geresenes shows us something interesting: he was possessed by demons, but all the other villagers, who didn't believe in Jesus, were not. So it seems one extreme (we in our circles don't really fall into) is saying every unbeliever is possessed by demons; but the other (we tend to very much fall into) is saying no unbelievers are possessed by demons. Sorry in advance if that's totally irrelevant to the discussion.

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## Dachaser (Jan 2, 2019)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Modern physics has like at least 9 or 10 dimensions. Granted, we know next to nothing about them


I heard one Christian theorized that as many as 26 dimensions of reality exists.


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## RamistThomist (Jan 2, 2019)

Dachaser said:


> I heard one Christian theorized that as many as 26 dimensions of reality exists.


And that's possible. The problem is that it is almost impossible to *scientifically* prove via the so-called scientific method. 

http://www.peeranormal.com/podcast/peeranormal-15-quantum-physics-and-metaphysics-part-1/


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## Dachaser (Jan 2, 2019)

JTB.SDG said:


> Don't have time to read all of this but skimmed a bit. So, not so much on ghosts but on demon possession...Another has pointed out I think well that the demoniac at Geresenes shows us something interesting: he was possessed by demons, but all the other villagers, who didn't believe in Jesus, were not. So it seems one extreme (we in our circles don't really fall into) is saying every unbeliever is possessed by demons; but the other (we tend to very much fall into) is saying no unbelievers are possessed by demons. Sorry in advance if that's totally irrelevant to the discussion.


I do not see any evidence by the scriptures that those who are really saved can be demon possessed!


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## Dachaser (Jan 2, 2019)

earl40 said:


> Of course I see the devil as having real power. Every time you or I sin we see the result of that power.


Does he have power to do supernatural activities, such as hauntings, fake ghosts, etc though?


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## JM (Jan 2, 2019)

I've read a lot of Manly P. Hall's works including The Secret Teaching of All Ages, Lost Keys of Freemasonry and Lectures. He never uses footnotes, never cites sources, and rarely if ever include a bib. In the text itself he will mention or allude to a source but they are difficult to find. 

Point is he can't really be trusted. I know he gets a lot of cred from the occult and esoteric crowd but his work is weak and unsupported. 

Yours in the Lord, 

jm


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## JM (Jan 2, 2019)

earl40 said:


> I dismiss this based on what I believe is superstition. Have you not read the warning on the box?......"This is a game that is fictional and any semblance of reality is purely coincidental."



It's like dowsing which is a type of divination. I would avoid it. 

Yours in the Lord, 

jm


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## RamistThomist (Jan 2, 2019)

Dachaser said:


> I do not see any evidence by the scriptures that those who are really saved can be demon possessed!



I don't think anyone is claiming that. Paul does warn, however, not to give Satan a foothold, which I think is a bit stronger than having negative thoughts.


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## JTB.SDG (Jan 2, 2019)

Dachaser said:


> I do not see any evidence by the scriptures that those who are really saved can be demon possessed!



David, re-read my post; that's not what I said.


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## Tom Hart (Jan 2, 2019)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Paul does warn... not to give Satan a foothold, which I think is a bit stronger than having negative thoughts.



Forgive me if I've missed something. Has anyone been saying that Satan's influence only extends as far as negative thoughts?


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## Pergamum (Jan 3, 2019)

Tom Hart said:


> Forgive me if I've missed something. Has anyone been saying that Satan's influence only extends as far as negative thoughts?


I think some are coming very close to it.


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## earl40 (Jan 3, 2019)

Dachaser said:


> Does he have power to do supernatural activities, such as hauntings, fake ghosts, etc though?



The only two people in scripture who literally saw satan were Jesus and Eve. Also the way Eve saw satan was through the medium of a snake. Our Lord in my opinion saw satan in his essence. Now do I think that satan manifest himself in a form we can see today? My answer would be yes. Every time you see something or someone that causes you to sin you have seen edit....(the work) of the devil, though not the devil such as Eve or Jesus saw. Now do I believe people really see fake ghosts? My answer is that the mind can conjure up many images that are not really there.


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## RamistThomist (Jan 3, 2019)

Tom Hart said:


> Forgive me if I've missed something. Has anyone been saying that Satan's influence only extends as far as negative thoughts?



That's the issue. "Power," Satan's in this case, has been left undefined. A few years ago some posters implied that demonic activity, even in Jesus' day, was just mental illness and not really real. 

Does Satan's power affect the physical space-time realm? That's the crux of the issue.


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## RamistThomist (Jan 3, 2019)

We can get a certain idea of Satan's original structure. He was a cherub. And the term nachash connoted, among other things, a shining appearance. It also connoted serpentine qualities, since Nachash can function as a substantival adjective.

So basically we have a shining, standing serpentine figure


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Jan 3, 2019)

Ssoo... Which side won?


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## RamistThomist (Jan 3, 2019)

In case any is interested. This is from the world's authority on Syriac Christianity. He is speaking of how angels--and by extension, the demonic--are interpreted in the Syriac tradition. What makes this interesting is that it is filtering the Hebrew/Aramaic tradition while bypassing many of the ambiguities in Greek thought. Unfortunately, you can only watch the video (and he is kind of funny to look at). You can't download it. If you can download it, please let me know.
https://sms.cam.ac.uk/media/1534993
https://sms.cam.ac.uk/media/1535000

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## Dachaser (Jan 5, 2019)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I don't think anyone is claiming that. Paul does warn, however, not to give Satan a foothold, which I think is a bit stronger than having negative thoughts.


I agree that even Christians can be affected by the Enemy if we permit him to get into our lives, but that to me is still far different from actually being possessed. Some ministries claim to be in a delivering Christians from being demon possessed now, and that is what I just do not agree as being found in the Bible.


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## Dachaser (Jan 5, 2019)

JTB.SDG said:


> David, re-read my post; that's not what I said.


Thanks for bringing that to my attention, and sorry for the misunderstanding.


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## Dachaser (Jan 5, 2019)

earl40 said:


> The only two people in scripture who literally saw satan were Jesus and Eve. Also the way Eve saw satan was through the medium of a snake. Our Lord in my opinion saw satan in his essence. Now do I think that satan manifest himself in a form we can see today? My answer would be yes. Every time you see something or someone that causes you to sin you have seen edit....(the work) of the devil, though not the devil such as Eve or Jesus saw. Now do I believe people really see fake ghosts? My answer is that the mind can conjure up many images that are not really there.


Do you think that demons can be some of the time behind so call hauntings, ghosts, poltergeist activities etc?


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## RamistThomist (Jan 5, 2019)

Dachaser said:


> Some ministries claim to be in a delivering Christians from being demon possessed now, and that is what I just do not agree as being found in the Bible.



A better word is "demonized," rather than "possessed." Possessed is a slippery term. It seems to be akin to auto-writing or something.


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## Alan D. Strange (Jan 5, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> Every culture believes in ghosts and haunted houses. Even some in the NT thought Jesus was a ghost/spirit and also Peter.
> 
> Why the universal cultural belief in ghosts and what are they?
> 
> ...



This discussion seems to have gone--immediately, really--far afield from this question, although since the original poster participated so heartily in the discussion, perhaps not. 

I think that the question, as put, should be answered along these lines: There is a universal belief in the unseen and spiritual because we are created in the image of God. Part of the broader image, as many theologians have argued (along with things like personality, rationality, morality, authority, and creativity), is spirituality. Man is a spiritual being, having eternity in his heart, and he knows that there is something more in the world than what one simply sees. He knows that there is an unseen reality. Though he may be a naturalist, in his heart of hearts, being marked at the core of his being with spirituality (God is a Spirit), he is not truly anti-supernaturalistic, whatever he professes to be. 

However, man in his unregenerate state, suppressing the truth as he does, perverts the supernatural. He ends us adoring Satan and his minions, either directly (in rarer cases) or indirectly (in most cases, including the false religions and Christian cults). As a part of his perverted supernatural beliefs, he turn to all sorts of things instead of God. 

Some of these things may involve really existing evil spirits and some fictional ones. It doesn't matter whether the particular evil characters are real or not because it is the Creator, who alone is to be worshiped and adored, and not the creation (malevolent spirits real or imagined). 

There is a universal belief in the supernatural and it manifests itself either in truth (with one worshipping the true and living God) or in falsehood (one worshipping the creation, under whatever rubrics, rather than the Creator). 

Peace,
Alan

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## RamistThomist (Jan 5, 2019)

Revelation 18:2 (CSB) He cried in a mighty voice: It has fallen, Babylon the Great has fallen! She has become a *dwelling for demons, a haunt* for every unclean spirit, a haunt for every unclean bird, and a haunt for every unclean and despicable beast.

Seems to be a rather open and shut case.

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## Alan D. Strange (Jan 5, 2019)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Seems to be a rather open and shut case.



Jacob, 

I am sorry, but I am unclear as to whom or what this post has reference. To something I said? Someone else? 

Your citation of Rev. 18:2 is an open and shut case for what? The existence of said entities? Agreed, though what precise manifestation that takes is another matter, given the incorporeal nature of spirits. 

I find the way this whole discussion has been carried on to be quite odd and I'm not entirely sure why it has been conducted as it has.

Peace,
Alan


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## RamistThomist (Jan 5, 2019)

Alan D. Strange said:


> Jacob,
> 
> I am sorry, but I am unclear as to whom or what this post has reference. To something I said? Someone else?
> 
> ...



The OP, if I am not mistaken, was whether haunted dwellings exist. Revelation says they do. My post wasn't directed to you, but to the OP (admittedly from ten pages ago)


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## Dachaser (Jan 5, 2019)

BayouHuguenot said:


> A better word is "demonized," rather than "possessed." Possessed is a slippery term. It seems to be akin to auto-writing or something.


My term would be oppressed, but same general idea as you are expressing.


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## Dachaser (Jan 5, 2019)

BayouHuguenot said:


> The OP, if I am not mistaken, was whether haunted dwellings exist. Revelation says they do. My post wasn't directed to you, but to the OP (admittedly from ten pages ago)


It also seem to involve determining if Satan and His demons are able to operate with supernatural powers still today or not?


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## Pergamum (Jan 6, 2019)

Jacob has done well to answer my original OP. Are there haunted places? It appears that there are. Some supposed haunts are fake, yes, but it seems Scripture affirms real haunts.

There are many other related questions as well to this one. I have been pleased with the interaction. I haven't minded that the subject has stayed a bit.

Related questions (that have mostly been covered) involve how Satan operates, what are the extent of his powers, can he work miracles, do the demons operate the same today as in the past, can demons inhabit inanimate objects? These are all good and related questions.

Thanks all.

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## a mere housewife (Jan 6, 2019)

(Just sticking my head in the door of this discussion to remark that I'm just not sure that 'Babylon' throughout Revelation is supposed to be interpreted as a literal haunted dwelling place ... not remarking to the OP at all, or any of the discussion. Babylon just seems more complicated than that.)

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## Tom Hart (Jan 6, 2019)

a mere housewife said:


> (Just sticking my head in the door of this discussion to remark that I'm just not sure that 'Babylon' throughout Revelation is supposed to be interpreted as a literal haunted dwelling place ... not remarking to the OP at all, or any of the discussion. Babylon just seems more complicated than that.)



Right. To draw from Rev. 18:2 that demons are behind hauntings and then to say it is "an open and shut case" is to foist upon the text a foreign meaning. It would seem to necessitate, further, that this "Babylon" is also literally a cage of unclean and hateful birds.


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## RamistThomist (Jan 6, 2019)

It could be a spiritual allegory, I grant. Proving it is another case. And even then it would be something like "Babylon is an allegory of spiritual evil and demons dwell there." That might be true but it really doesn't communicate anything.


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## Tom Hart (Jan 6, 2019)

BayouHuguenot said:


> It could be a spiritual allegory, I grant. Proving it is another case. And even then it would be something like "Babylon is an allegory of spiritual evil and demons dwell there." That might be true but it really doesn't communicate anything.



You might try reading the verse in its context.


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## RamistThomist (Jan 6, 2019)

Tom Hart said:


> You might try reading the verse in its context.



I've read through Revelation in Greek. Saying "read it in context" is a truism.


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## Tom Hart (Jan 6, 2019)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I've read through Revelation in Greek. Saying "read it in context" is a truism.



I mean to point out that it quite obviously has nothing to do with haunted houses. That's a difficult case to make even taking the verse in isolation.


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## RamistThomist (Jan 6, 2019)

Tom Hart said:


> I mean to point out that it quite obviously has nothing to do with haunted houses. That's a difficult case to make even taking the verse in isolation.



I didn't say haunted houses. The larger point is that unclean spirits can inhabit dwellings, be they cities or temples or whatever. Reasoning by extension, that could include houses.


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## Pergamum (Jan 6, 2019)

Tom Hart said:


> I mean to point out that it quite obviously has nothing to do with haunted houses. That's a difficult case to make even taking the verse in isolation.


It has to do with whether demons or ghosts have particular dwelling places. And seems to affirm it.

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## Tom Hart (Jan 6, 2019)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I didn't say haunted houses. The larger point is that unclean spirits can inhabit dwellings, be they cities or temples or whatever. Reasoning by extension, that could include houses.





Pergamum said:


> It has to do with whether demons or ghosts have particular dwelling places. And seems to affirm it.


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## Pergamum (Jan 6, 2019)

Tom Hart said:


>


So you deny that some demons appears to have particular jobs and duties and places in which they dwell?

Not sure why all the head-banging.

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## Tom Hart (Jan 6, 2019)

In Revelation 17 and 18, the woman Babylon is called a "great city." This Babylon is represented as a whore with whom the nations have committed fornication. She is drunk on the blood of the saints.

Context matters. For all your reading of Greek, you appear to be missing something rather obvious:

In Revelation, Babylon is not a literal place.


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## RamistThomist (Jan 6, 2019)

Tom Hart said:


> In Revelation 17 and 18, the woman Babylon is called a "great city." This Babylon is represented as a whore with whom the nations have committed fornication. She is drunk on the blood of the saints.
> 
> Context matters. For all your reading of Greek, you appear to be missing something rather obvious:
> 
> In Revelation, Babylon is not a literal place.



I don't see the problem. The Woman = Babylon. Let it be represented by _x_. Is it a person or a place? I lean towards place, since if it were a person difficulties would arise (one person fornicating with all the nations?).


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## Tom Hart (Jan 6, 2019)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I don't see the problem. The Woman = Babylon. Let it be represented by _x_. Is it a person or a place? I lean towards place, since if it were a person difficulties would arise (one person fornicating with all the nations?).



To my knowledge, places don't fornicate either.


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## Tom Hart (Jan 6, 2019)

The title of this thread is "Ghosts and Haunted Houses."

In recent posts it has been asserted that Rev. 18:2 refers to a physical place, and that it supports a "haunted house" theology. This is entirely groundless. It forces a completely and plainly foreign idea onto the text.

Babylon is here a symbol, not a literal place. I think you will find broad consensus on that point from many commentators, past and present.

What is it a symbol of? Well, that can be another discussion. As far as this discussion goes (as long as we're still talking about "Ghosts and Haunted Houses") it is enough for me to say that Babylon in Revelation is quite irrelevant.


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## Southern Presbyterian (Jan 6, 2019)

This discussion has ranged far and wide from the OP. Let us take a break, at least for this Lord's Day, and go worship Him in spirit and truth.

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## Pergamum (Jan 12, 2019)

Woohooo......thread is open for business, again! Thanks Mods!

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## Dachaser (Jan 12, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> Woohooo......thread is open for business, again! Thanks Mods!


I just wonder if sometimes there is demonic activity present in lives and in places, but we have just either refused to accept any of that valid for today, or just label it all under fraud, deception, or ghosts.


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## Pergamum (Jan 12, 2019)

Dachaser said:


> I just wonder if sometimes there is demonic activity present in lives and in places, but we have just either refused to accept any of that valid for today, or just label it all under fraud, deception, or ghosts.


That is what I believe often happens.


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## Dachaser (Jan 12, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> That is what I believe often happens.


I also have wondered if some, maybe not even a majority of the time, but due to abusing alcohol/drugs, if some mental illness and other things actually might be the unsaved experiencing demonic assaults?


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## RamistThomist (Jan 12, 2019)

I know "demon" is sort of a catch-all word for anything bad, but it bears asking: the activity could be that of shedim, rephaim, kosmokratoras tous skotous, exousias, archas, or pneumatka tes pornias.

Given that daimonia usually like to inhabit flesh, it doesn't seem like they would attach themselves to houses.

On the other hand, something like archons or kosmokratoras could very well be what the CIA accidentally brought over in Project Montauk in 1983.


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## Pergamum (Jan 13, 2019)

Here is a map of all the Marian apparitions:

https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/world-map-marian-apparitions

Can they ALL be made up?

Or is there something real behind these sightings? These places seem to be places of power and spiritual importance. If we assume these sighting are perhaps demonic deceits, then why would the demon return to the same place over and over again? Do they gain some sort of comfort or satisfaction in a job well done? Just like humans, do they feel a sense of comfort in a familiar place?

It appears that demons make their homes in specific places and in specific people and when cast out wander and look for another host. and during their wanderings they seem to be in greater discomfort than if they find a place to inhabit. 

And some places are more attractive to them to inhabit, especially the religious.

Matthew 12:
_"43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation."
_
One practical implication would seem to be that demons prefer well-swept homes and so "clean" religious sinners are more enticing than dirty unkempt sinners as a target for demonic harassment. A Catholic Priest thus makes a better home than a skid-row bum for a demon to inhabit as a host.

Thoughts?


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## Pergamum (Jan 13, 2019)

https://frame-poythress.org/territorial-spirits-some-biblical-perspectives/

_The Bible contains various examples of idolatry with geographical boundaries. Particular peoples and territories often have “patron” gods. The Moabites devote themselves to the worship of Chemosh (1 Kings 11:7). The Ammonites worship Molech and Chemosh (1 Kings 11:7; Judges 11:24). The Philistines of Ashdod worship Dagon (1 Sam 5:2-7). The Sidonians worship Baal (1 Kings 16:31). A plurality of Baal gods seem to be associated with distinct sites: “Each locality had its own Baal or divine lord who frequently took his name from the city or place to which he belonged. Hence there were Baal-meon (`Baal of Meon,’ Nu. 32:38), Baal-hermon (`Baal of Hermon,’ Jgs. 3:3), Baal-hazor (`Baal of Hazor,’ 2 S. 13:23), Baal-peor (`Baal of Peor,’ Nu. 25:3).”8 One may find many other extrabiblical examples of localized gods from the nations around Israel. People commonly thought that gods attached themselves to particular regions. For example, the Arameans reasoned that Yahweh was “a god of the hills.” The Israelites could be defeated by doing battle in the plains (1 Kings 20:23-25). The immigrants brought into Palestine after the exile of the northern kingdom made inquiry about the gods attached to their new land (2 Kings 17:26-28). But the people also continued to devote themselves to the gods of their own social group: “each national group made its own gods in the several towns where they settled …” (2 Kings 17:29). We thus see an combination of geographical and cultural factors. The people reckon geographically with “the god of the land” (verse 27) and culturally with the god of the cultural group, “each national group,” גּוֹי גּוֹי (Hebrew, goy goy).
_


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## RamistThomist (Jan 13, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> Thoughts?



Most (or all) of those apparitions are fallen archons trying to deceive.

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## TheInquirer (Jan 14, 2019)

I have a close relative who has been under the deception of some of the Marian apparitions for decades and I can attest that, whether real sightings happened or it is human deceit, the messages attached to them are antichrist to the core and spiritually enslaving. 

1 Timothy 4:1–2 — Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared

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## Dachaser (Jan 16, 2019)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Most (or all) of those apparitions are fallen archons trying to deceive.


What are Archons?


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## Dachaser (Jan 16, 2019)

TheInquirer said:


> I have a close relative who has been under the deception of some of the Marian apparitions for decades and I can attest that, whether real sightings happened or it is human deceit, the messages attached to them are antichrist to the core and spiritually enslaving.
> 
> 1 Timothy 4:1–2 — Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared


Yes, as the so called Fatima visions were deception by Satan to gullible minds.


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## RamistThomist (Jan 16, 2019)

Dachaser said:


> What are Archons?



This is an oversimplification, but they are cosmic spirits that have some form of rank and hierarchy. Ephesians 6:20ff mentions them along with archai.


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## Dachaser (Jan 16, 2019)

BayouHuguenot said:


> This is an oversimplification, but they are cosmic spirits that have some form of rank and hierarchy. Ephesians 6:20ff mentions them along with archai.


So they would not be either angels or demons?


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## Pergamum (Jan 16, 2019)

Dachaser said:


> What are Archons?


Literally an archon is a ruler or chief. Regarding demons it means a lead demon. A demonic chief. Jacob is pointing out that there is a hierarchy of demons. Some are higher or lower and some are tasked with different duties.


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## Dachaser (Jan 16, 2019)

Pergamum said:


> Literally an archon is a ruler or chief. Regarding demons it means a lead demon. A demonic chief. Jacob is pointing out that there is a hierarchy of demons. Some are higher or lower and some are tasked with different duties.


Liked the one that blocked the angel from getting to Daniel, and had to have Michael show up to move it forward?


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## RamistThomist (Jan 16, 2019)

Dachaser said:


> So they would not be either angels or demons?



Correct. An angel is a messenger. That's all. A demon is a disembodied spirit actively seeking a body to inhabit. (I think demons are spirits of the slain Nephilim, but that's another story). Archons do not seek bodies.


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## RamistThomist (Jan 16, 2019)

Dachaser said:


> Liked the one that blocked the angel from getting to Daniel, and had to have Michael show up to move it forward?



Kind of. There is a Hebrew word that describes those territorial spirits. They are probably _Shedim_, fallen rulers of the nations (Deut. 32:17-18). They are the beney ha-elohim to whom God allotted the nations after Babel (Deut. 4).


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## Dachaser (Jan 16, 2019)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Kind of. There is a Hebrew word that describes those territorial spirits. They are probably _Shedim_, fallen rulers of the nations (Deut. 32:17-18). They are the beney ha-elohim to whom God allotted the nations after Babel (Deut. 4).


Does any of these still apply though after the New Covenant era started?


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## RamistThomist (Jan 16, 2019)

Dachaser said:


> Does any of these still apply though after the New Covenant era started?



Like, are they still ruling over the nations. They've been dealt a decisive blow. And the preaching of the gospel can overtake their kingdoms. That being said, they aren't merely twiddling their thumbs. If someone thinks otherwise, go visit Iran or even worse, Saudi Arabia and tell me that the Prince of Persia (aka, the Moon God) isn't in control.


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## Pergamum (Jan 16, 2019)

Dachaser said:


> Does any of these still apply though after the New Covenant era started?


Yes. A Kingdom that is being destroyed is still a kingdom. The SS took a beating the first months of 1945 during the end of WWII, but their ranks and units still were significant for the most part (at least until they were totally obliterated).

We are still mopping up and have territories to conquer.

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## Regi Addictissimus (Jan 16, 2019)

Dachaser said:


> Does any of these still apply though after the New Covenant era started?


The Cross was like a spiritual E.M.P. bomb that gravely crippled the enemy forces. The elect are the foot soldiers that are storming their bunkers and strongholds picking them off one by one.
.

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## ZackF (Jan 16, 2019)

Dachaser said:


> What are Archons?



Read all about them.

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## Southern Presbyterian (Jan 17, 2019)

**Moderation**

Shutting this one down for good now. in my opinion, this has ranged way too far and way too wide, well outside the bounds of Scripture - Deut. 29:29.

**End Moderation**

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