# Sabbath Duration



## Bondman (Feb 4, 2007)

Does anyone observe the Lord's Day from Saturday evening until Sunday evening. 

evening = sunset

I'm presuming most observe only Sunday.

My pastor recently expressed a view about the Lord's Day being only Sunday day and not the evening. 

Any thoughts? Articles?


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Feb 4, 2007)

Matt -- Like most issues, there is not a consenus on the Puritan Board about when the Lord's Day begins and ends. However, the majority of Reformed and Puritan Christians have held to a Sabbath duration of midnight-to-midnight as taught by the Bible. Below are links to a couple of threads in which I have provided some resources that might be helpful in studying this issue further. God bless! 

When does the Lord's Day begin?

When does the Sabbath Day Begin/End Revisited


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## PresReformed (Feb 4, 2007)

Matt,

I observe the Sabbath from evening to evening. I believe that is the definition of a biblical day as kept by our Lord and His apostles. Nowhere in Scripture is the day kept or defined as midnight to midnight. John Cotton wrote a treatise defending this position as did Thomas Shepard in his _Theses Sabbaticae_. This was the way the Sabbath was observed in New England for over 100 years. This was the Sabbath that Jonathan Edwards kept.


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## Davidius (Feb 4, 2007)

PresReformed said:


> Matt,
> 
> I observe the Sabbath from evening to evening. I believe that is the definition of a biblical day as kept by our Lord and His apostles. Nowhere in Scripture is the day kept or defined as midnight to midnight. John Cotton wrote a treatise defending this position as did Thomas Shepard in his _Theses Sabbaticae_. This was the way the Sabbath was observed in New England for over 100 years. This was the Sabbath that Jonathan Edwards kept.




So I could've gone to that Superbowl party tonight?!


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## Croghanite (Feb 4, 2007)

I just read through this thread that Andrew posted.
http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php?t=16253
I am also studying the subject and desire to serve our great God in everything according to His Word. After reading that thread I can see I may have a long road ahead. I pray this thread will be a blessing to all. Thanks for the posts Greg and Andrew. 
I am also wondering what conclusions Jeff Bartel has made...


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## jfschultz (Feb 4, 2007)

PresReformed said:


> Matt,
> 
> I observe the Sabbath from evening to evening. I believe that is the definition of a biblical day as kept by our Lord and His apostles. Nowhere in Scripture is the day kept or defined as midnight to midnight. John Cotton wrote a treatise defending this position as did Thomas Shepard in his _Theses Sabbaticae_. This was the way the Sabbath was observed in New England for over 100 years. This was the Sabbath that Jonathan Edwards kept.





CarolinaCalvinist said:


> So I could've gone to that Superbowl party tonight?!



In the annual Super Bowl vs Sabbath thread a couple of years ago this idea came up. This was followed an oops moment when the poster was asked what they do on Saturday evening!


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## Arch2k (Feb 4, 2007)

LAYMAN JOE said:


> I am also wondering what conclusions Jeff Bartel has made...


 
 I wouldn't take to much stock in my opinion! But as a subscriptionist to the westminster confession/catechisms, I understand the day to be 24 hrs., from midnight to midnight.


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## Croghanite (Feb 5, 2007)

Jeff_Bartel said:


> But as a subscriptionist to the westminster confession/catechisms, I understand the day to be 24 hrs., from midnight to midnight.


 
I figured you would say that.


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## jaybird0827 (Feb 5, 2007)

Jeff_Bartel said:


> I wouldn't take to much stock in my opinion! But as a subscriptionist to the westminster confession/catechisms, I understand the day to be 24 hrs., from midnight to midnight.


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## S. Spence (Feb 5, 2007)

Just out of interest, do you guys believe the Sabbath prohibits the watching of TV on a Sunday?


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## Arch2k (Feb 5, 2007)

S. Spence said:


> Just out of interest, do you guys believe the Sabbath prohibits the watching of TV on a Sunday?


 
Yes. The only thing I will ever watch is something like the Amazing Grace DVD (not at all endorsing the images BTW) or a Psalm instruction DVD. Both of these are VERY rare for me on the Sabbath though.


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## BJClark (Feb 5, 2007)

Jeff_Bartel;



> But as a subscriptionist to the westminster confession/catechisms, I understand the day to be 24 hrs., from midnight to midnight.



Why midnight to midnight?

24 hours could be from sundown to sundown...which is what appears to be the case..

Early observance of the Sabbath

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath



> It is known that Gentile Christians sometimes openly observed the Biblical Sabbath in conjunction with first-day Sunday worship, because the Council of Laodicea [1] around AD 365 attempted to put a stop to the practice. Some conjecture, then, that prior to the Laodicean council Saturday was observed as a Sabbath and Sunday as a day of worship, primarily in Palestine; but after the Laodicean Council, resting on the Sabbath was forbidden. In Early Christianity, the first Christians were Jews and Jewish Proselytes, who on the weight of Biblical evidence (such as Acts 3:1; 5:27-42; 21:18-26; 24:5; 24:14; 28:22), are usually assumed to have kept the Jewish customs, including the observations of the Sabbath *from Friday's sunset to Saturday's sunset*. These Christians are sometimes referred to as Jewish Christians. This practice may have continued at least until Herod's Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed in AD 70 or the city was renamed Aelia Capitolina in AD 135. According to Eusebius' History of the Church Book IV, chapter V, verses 3-4 the first 15 Bishops of Jerusalem were "of the circumcision". There is evidence that even Gentile Christians also observed the Biblical Sabbath, many centuries into the Christian Era, and even up to the present time. At the same time, a widespread Christian tradition, from early on, was to also meet for worship on the first day of the week, Sunday.


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## PresReformed (Feb 5, 2007)

BJClark said:


> Why midnight to midnight?
> 
> 24 hours could be from sundown to sundown...which is what appears to be the case..



Sundown to sundown is 24 hours, and the Confession says nothing about a day running from midnight to midnight.


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## BJClark (Feb 5, 2007)

PresReformed;



> Sundown to sundown is 24 hours, and the Confession says nothing about a day running from midnight to midnight.



yes, my wording was off in saying 'could be'. 

Which is why I was wondering why Jeff holds to the Midnight to Midnight as the Sabbath, per his quote.




> But as a subscriptionist to the westminster confession/catechisms, I understand the day to be 24 hrs., from midnight to midnight.


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## jaybird0827 (Feb 5, 2007)

*The Lord's Day*

The Lord's Day is the 1st day of the week and is from the resurrection of Christ forward.

If it were supposed to be sundown to sundown, why did Christ not rise from the dead on the evening prior to the 1st day of the week. Or for that matter, why didn't the women go hurrying out to the tomb in the dusk? Why did they wait until morning.

Why did Paul continue preaching so late at night on the Lord's Day (Acts 20)? In fact, he even went past midnight and people stayed on. He didn't cut it short when the sun went down so that everybody could get home to begin the 2nd day of the week.


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## fredtgreco (Feb 5, 2007)

Of course, and just thinking here, it might be more important to think about how to cultivate a love for the Lord's Day, and how to spend the day in works of mercy and piety (more than just worship and a nap) than to get twisted around the axle of which form of the day it is. I can't imagine why an pastor would be anything but pleased by anyone who tried to Biblically keep the Lord's Day - whether it was sundown to sundown or midnight to midnight.


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## Arch2k (Feb 5, 2007)

BJClark said:


> Why midnight to midnight?
> 
> 24 hours could be from sundown to sundown...which is what appears to be the case..


 
I believe that the resources cited for the 24 hour view were very persuasive in the thread When does the Sabbath Day Begin/End Revisited. I also think that given Ussher and Gouge's testimony give an insight as to the Westminster's view of the Sabbath.

That being said, while I believe the time of the Sabbath to be an important issue, I agree with Fred's statement that it is more important that one biblically observe the Sabbath, then what time it starts.


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## PresReformed (Feb 5, 2007)

jaybird0827 said:


> The Lord's Day is the 1st day of the week and is from the resurrection of Christ forward.



First of all, the Lord's Day is the first day of the week, but Scripture says nothing about it being from Christ's resurrection forward. In fact for this argument to stand towards giving proof of a midnight to midnight observance you would have to prove that Christ rose at midnight which is nowhere in the bible. The Lord's Day is simply the first day of the week, so you must go to Scripture to find the biblical definition of a day, which is evening to evening.



jaybird0827 said:


> If it were supposed to be sundown to sundown, why did Christ not rise from the dead on the evening prior to the 1st day of the week. Or for that matter, why didn't the women go hurrying out to the tomb in the dusk? Why did they wait until morning.



How do you know that Christ didn't arise in the evening. All we know is that He arose on the first day of the week before the sun rose. This could very easily be Saturday evening after sundown. Remember, the Jews considered the first day of the week to begin at sundown on the seventh day. Obviously the women waited until morning because they would have light at that time.



jaybird0827 said:


> Why did Paul continue preaching so late at night on the Lord's Day (Acts 20)? In fact, he even went past midnight and people stayed on. He didn't cut it short when the sun went down so that everybody could get home to begin the 2nd day of the week.



He didn't cut it short after midnight either, so this adds no weight to a midnight to midnight observance. All this passage says is that he began preaching on the first day of the week and continued to preach after midnight. They stayed up all night and then he left in the morning. You cannot draw any inferences from this passage to prove that a day is defined as midnight to midnight, evening to evening fits this passage just as well.


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## jfschultz (Feb 5, 2007)

S. Spence said:


> Just out of interest, do you guys believe the Sabbath prohibits the watching of TV on a Sunday?





> Ex 20:10 but the seventh day is a sabbath unto Jehovah thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:



This was the thing that brought me around; "Would working on Sunday, pushing buttons on a TV switcher to provide entertainment of others, be a violation of the 4th commandment?" When I answered "Yes," it followed that based on Ex 20:10, it would be wrong to watch TV for entertainment, something I know would require others to violate the 4th commandment (thy stranger that is within thy gates).

It is so easy to look at the 4th commandment as applying to "me" and ignore the aspect of what we do may cause others to be in more explicit violation of the 4th commandment.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Feb 5, 2007)

I think an important inference to be drawn from the Fourth Commandment is that God has set apart a specific time, lasting 24 hours, which is his holy day, ie., the Lord's Day, or Christian Sabbath. I cannot see how it is either a matter of adiaphora or individual preference as to when this day begins, nor can I see how the Sabbath can equally begin at sundown for one person, noon for another and midnight for a third person. Moreover, the determination of when the day begins and ends has clear practical ramifications for Sabbath observance -- ie., is it lawful to go out to eat at a restaurant on Saturday evening or Sunday evening? is it lawful or not to watch the Superbowl on Sunday evening? An holy resting all the day is our duty but if the beginning of the day varies with a person's conscience, then there is no objective standard by which to evaluate Sabbath observance. I know that some Christians have taken the position historically that the Lord's Day begin at sundown on Saturday and some believe the Sabbath continues to begin at sundown on Friday, as well as other variations on this theme. But Biblical observance of the Sabbath is not limited to our activities during a 24-hour period of our own choosing, but rather how we spend our time in the 24-hour period which God has set apart, not man, ie., midnight-to-midnight on the first day of the week. The determination of this time period is certainly important and worthy of seeking clarification from the Scriptures. There is no legalism per se in exegeting from Scripture when the day begins any more than there is in exegeting which day of the week constitutes the Sabbath. The Fourth Commandment is very much concerned with the specific time appointed by God which makes up his holy day and we should we be likewise concerned about this matter. That said, as I have noted before, in many previous Sabbath discussions, the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 



> Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
> 
> I agree that true Sabbath-keeping is not a list of do's and don'ts, but is exemplified in Augustine's famous saying, "Love God as do as thou wilt."
> 
> However, we can summarize the Ten Commandments as "Love God and love your neighbor" and still recognize that it is precisely a list of do's and don'ts. We need to think of God's law on both levels (the practical and the abstract).


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## Augusta (Feb 5, 2007)

In Genesis a day is described as having "a morning and an evening." My understanding of that is closer to the 24 hrs from midnight to midnight than it is to evening to evening. Not to mention, our sabbath is based on the 7th day of creation sabbath rest, not on the Jewish sabbath. There may be some confusion there.


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## fredtgreco (Feb 5, 2007)

VirginiaHuguenot said:


> I think an important inference to be drawn from the Fourth Commandment is that God has set apart a specific time, lasting 24 hours, which is his holy day, ie., the Lord's Day, or Christian Sabbath. I cannot see how it is either a matter of adiaphora or individual preference as to when this day begins, nor can I see how the Sabbath can equally begin at sundown for one person, noon for another and midnight for a third person. Moreover, the determination of when the day begins and ends has clear practical ramifications for Sabbath observance -- ie., is it lawful to go out to eat at a restaurant on Saturday evening or Sunday evening? is it lawful or not to watch the Superbowl on Sunday evening? An holy resting all the day is our duty but if the beginning of the day varies with a person's conscience, then there is no objective standard by which to evaluate Sabbath observance. I know that some Christians have taken the position historically that the Lord's Day begin at sundown on Saturday and some believe the Sabbath continues to begin at sundown on Friday, as well as other variations on this theme. But Biblical observance of the Sabbath is not limited to our activities during a 24-hour period of our own choosing, but rather how we spend our time in the 24-hour period which God has set apart, not man, ie., midnight-to-midnight on the first day of the week. The determination of this time period is certainly important and worthy of seeking clarification from the Scriptures. There is no legalism per se in exegeting from Scripture when the day begins any more than there is in exegeting which day of the week constitutes the Sabbath. The Fourth Commandment is very much concerned with the specific time appointed by God which makes up his holy day and we should we be likewise concerned about this matter. That said, as I have noted before, in many previous Sabbath discussions, the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.



Or we might look to our Confessions, which thought it wise, prudent, pastoral and Biblical to specificially describe and exegete which day in seven it was, and the fact that it was one in seven, and then spends the reminder of its time describing what actions are to be taken; and at the same time are completely silent as to the exact time the Lord's Day begins. Thus I would be reluctant to lay down a commandment that the Standards do not, and to focus where they do not. Especially since there is vigorous disagreement as to the beginning time (witness this thread), and it is a question which 99.99999% of our culture and 99.98% of the Church has never even heard of or considered.



> 7. As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in his Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, he hath particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him: which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week; and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week, which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's day, and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.
> 8. This Sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest, all the day, from their own works, words, and thoughts about their worldly employments and recreations, but also are taken up, the whole time, in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.
> 
> Q. 115. _Which is the fourth commandment?_
> ...


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## VictorBravo (Feb 5, 2007)

fredtgreco said:


> Of course, and just thinking here, it might be more important to think about how to cultivate a love for the Lord's Day, and how to spend the day in works of mercy and piety (more than just worship and a nap) than to get twisted around the axle of which form of the day it is. I can't imagine why an pastor would be anything but pleased by anyone who tried to Biblically keep the Lord's Day - whether it was sundown to sundown or midnight to midnight.



That seems the wisest. Why not use Saturday night to prepare for the Lord's Day (with prayer, reading, psalm singing etc.), enjoy and observe the Lord's day until bedtime, and be refreshed for work on Monday?


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Feb 5, 2007)

Fisher's Catechism, Q. 58:



> Q. 1. To what about the Worship of God has this command a reference?
> 
> A. It refers to the special TIME of God's worship.
> 
> ...


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## PresReformed (Feb 5, 2007)

Augusta said:


> In Genesis a day is described as having "a morning and an evening." My understanding of that is closer to the 24 hrs from midnight to midnight than it is to evening to evening. Not to mention, our sabbath is based on the 7th day of creation sabbath rest, not on the Jewish sabbath. There may be some confusion there.



Actually a day is described as an evening and a morning. There was darkness before there was light. Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. *And the evening and the morning were the first day*.


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## fredtgreco (Feb 5, 2007)

Thank you Andrew and Greg for proving my point. Because of course we could go to several Scriptures that make this issue unclear, or we could go the cut and paste route (which is ever popular) in which John Flavel gives us a third option, that of beginning at dawn on the Lord's Day and ending at dawn the next day:



> [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif][SIZE=-2][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=+1][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-0]Q. 6. _When doth the Christian Sabbath begin? _
> A. It appears that this day is not to be reckoned from evening to evening, but from morning to morning; because the Christian Sabbath must begin when the Jewish Sabbath ended, but that ended towards the morning, Matthew 28:1. In the end of the Sabbath, as it began to dawn towards the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalen, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre.[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]


or a combination of these concepts, as advocated by Vincent:



> [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif][SIZE=-2][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-0]Q. 6. When doth this holy day or Sabbath begin, in the evening before, or that morning from midnight?
> A. In the evening before, by virtue of that word, "Remember to keep holy the seventh day," we ought to begin to prepare for the Sabbath; but the Sabbath itself doth not begin until the evening is spent, and midnight thereof over, and the morning after twelve of the clock beginneth.[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]


or we could read Shaw, who does not address the issue.

But so much more pleasant to be diverted on this minutiae, and to declare with all our voice that the Scripture unequivocally backs our position with a "thus saith the Lord."


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Feb 5, 2007)

Fred -- If you will note, Flavel and Vincent (which I cited in the above-referenced thread on this subject) both hold to my position (articulated very well in that same thread by William Gouge, member of the Westminster Assembly), which is that the Sabbath begins in the morning, which commences at midnight (a definite beginning and end which applies to all persons), not the position which you seem to advocate, which is that is up to each individual to decide when the Sabbath begins. 

Greg's position (and that of John Cotton, et al.), which I respectfully disagree with, is much to be preferred to a position that devalues the issue of when the Sabbath begins, making it a matter of liberty and chaos for all.

As I noted before, if everyone has liberty to decide when the Sabbath begins then we have no objective standard by which to evaluate something as practical and relevant to today's society (witness the concurent thread on this subject) as Superbowl parties.



VirginiaHuguenot said:


> William Gouge, _The Sabbath's Sanctification_:
> 
> Question 48. When begins the Lord's Day?
> Ans. In the morning, Acts 20:7.
> ...


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## Augusta (Feb 6, 2007)

PresReformed said:


> Actually a day is described as an evening and a morning. There was darkness before there was light. Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. *And the evening and the morning were the first day*.



Oops.




You are correct. I was going from memory which is obviously lacking.


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## Ezekiel3626 (Feb 6, 2007)

Augusta said:


> Oops.
> 
> 
> 
> You are correct. I was going from memory which is obviously lacking.



and to think, you had the correct formula right there in your signature,


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