# I believe that Roman Catholicism is a false religion and not a true Christian church



## dudley (Oct 30, 2011)

The following is what I think about Roman Catholics and Roman Catholicism. “Catholics have religion without righteousness, teachings without truth, churchianity without Christianity, and crucifixes without Christ. “

I am a former Roman catholic turned Reformed Protestant. I believe most Catholic people are sincere. They go to Mass and hear the pretty music and church bells. They hear the Scripture quoted and are taught to partake of Christ's death in order to be a part of His resurrection. They are taught about the blood of Jesus and the mystery of the Gospel, and so forth. It all seems so religious. 
However, they are not taught to be born-again as Jesus commanded in John 3:3, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." If you'll notice, every word the priest speaks at prayer time is recited from a piece of paper, and not from his heart as the Lord desires. Matthew 15:7,8, "Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me." Catholics do have religion, and grand it is; but they don't have the Spirit of God. Catholics have the spirit of ancient Babylon, the mystery Queen of Heaven—the Blessed Virgin; but they don't have the truth of the Gospel, which is without works of self-righteousness. Matthew 5:20, "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." 

I believe that Roman Catholicism is a false religion and not a true Christian church. What do you think? Iwould like to know if I am correct or do some Reformed Protestants have a different view . I see the rcc as the Whore of Babylon and a Harlot of Satan.


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## Believer1993 (Oct 31, 2011)

I think it is true that Rome teaches a different gospel. I've heard people (Greg Bahnsen in particular) describe Catholicism as a Christian cult much like Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. However, I think that there may be some regenerate within Roman Catholicism.


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## Weston Stoler (Oct 31, 2011)

Their are probably some regenerate people in the catholic church however I don't know of anyone here that would not consider it apostate.


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## jwithnell (Oct 31, 2011)

As long as the RC uses a traditional liturgy, people will be saying and hearing God's word over and over. Likely very few come to Christ due to the works-righteousness teaching, but the word is still powerful and still reaches a few of Jesus' lambs. The same is true of liberal Lutheranism.


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## Rich Koster (Oct 31, 2011)

Thankfully, I can say HAPPY REFORMATION DAY !!!


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## Zach (Oct 31, 2011)

jwithnell said:


> As long as the RC uses a traditional liturgy, people will be saying and hearing God's word over and over. Likely very few come to Christ due to the works-righteousness teaching, but the word is still powerful and still reaches a few of Jesus' lambs. The same is true of liberal Lutheranism.



I agree. It's been a subject I've wrestled with, I believe the Roman Church preaches a different gospel, but as long as they preach from the Word a few may come to true faith in Christ. Unlikely, but I certainly wouldn't classify the Roman Church with Mormonism or other cults.


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## Peairtach (Oct 31, 2011)

The Roman Catholic Church, like the Eastern Orthodox Church, is a part of the visible Christian Church, but a very corrupt part.



> Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, *so that he takes his seat in the temple of God*, proclaiming himself to be God. (II Thess 2:3-4, ESV)



The Papacy - if this is the Papacy, which it probably is - is said here to sit in the temple of God. The temple of God is the Church.



> and the light of a lamp will shine in you no more, and the voice of bridegroom and bride will be heard in you no more, for your merchants were the great ones of the earth, and all nations were deceived by your sorcery. (Rev 18:23)



The light of a lamp, and the voice of the bride and bridegroom, are said to be in the apostate Church - if this is the apostate Church, which it probably is.


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## Moireach (Oct 31, 2011)

Hmm. I'm right behind you Dudley, it's certainly not a true Church. Infact I, and many before me, believe at its head is the anti-Christ. The Biblical argument for this is well summed up in a sermon by David Silversides on Sermonaudio.com.

But what Richard says is interesting. Must say I hadn't pieced that together before...
It is of course an apostasy, in that it came from Christianity, so bears the appearance of Christianity and claims to be Christian. But it's still a very interesting point Richard because I'd obviously have said it is absolutely no longer the temple of God in any way. I'll have to look into that..


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## earl40 (Oct 31, 2011)

dudley said:


> The following is what I think about Roman Catholics and Roman Catholicism. “Catholics have religion without righteousness, teachings without truth, churchianity without Christianity, and crucifixes without Christ. “
> 
> I am a former Roman catholic turned Reformed Protestant. I believe most Catholic people are sincere. They go to Mass and hear the pretty music and church bells. They hear the Scripture quoted and are taught to partake of Christ's death in order to be a part of His resurrection. They are taught about the blood of Jesus and the mystery of the Gospel, and so forth. It all seems so religious.
> However, they are not taught to be born-again as Jesus commanded in John 3:3, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." If you'll notice, every word the priest speaks at prayer time is recited from a piece of paper, and not from his heart as the Lord desires. Matthew 15:7,8, "Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me." Catholics do have religion, and grand it is; but they don't have the Spirit of God. Catholics have the spirit of ancient Babylon, the mystery Queen of Heaven—the Blessed Virgin; but they don't have the truth of the Gospel, which is without works of self-righteousness. Matthew 5:20, "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."
> ...



Dudley did you change your view of Who Jesus was and what He did for you while you were attending a RC church? Or did you come to a fuller understanding of such when you became a protestant? Just currious because I believe many Christians misplace the "hour" of their conversion.


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## caoclan (Oct 31, 2011)

I am a former RC as well. I think it cannot be classified as a cult, per se, but I think it fits perfectly within the definition of an apostate church. The Apostate Church, in my opinion. The harlot from Revelation 17. This is my view of the papacy and it's theology. The members within may fall into many different categories (true believers, deceivers, deceived, etc.).


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## Moireach (Oct 31, 2011)

I believe it's a tragedy that many evangelical churches - as they backslide - are seeing the RC church more and more as Christian brothers, and less as a people ripe for evanglism.
Don't you former RCs agree? I see them as a people we should be making a special effort to evanglise to, in the same way that Muslims and other such religions are specifically targeted. And I think there is much more potential there even than other cultures and religions.


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## dudley (Nov 2, 2011)

Moireach said:


> I believe it's a tragedy that many evangelical churches - as they backslide - are seeing the RC church more and more as Christian brothers, and less as a people ripe for evanglism.
> Don't you former RCs agree? I see them as a people we should be making a special effort to evanglise to, in the same way that Muslims and other such religions are specifically targeted. And I think there is much more potential there even than other cultures and religions.



I AGREE with you David AND I HAVE OFTEN PUSHED FOR EVANGELIZING Roman Catholics here on the PB.…if you can get Catholics to have a conversion experience in a Protestant setting….you will win them over to the true Gospel and the Reformed faith. Most Protestant churches have dynamic youth programs, vibrant Wednesday and Sunday evening services, and friendly small-group bible studies. In addition, they host special crusades, seminars and concerts. At the invitation of a Protestant friend, a Catholic may begin attending one or more of these events while still going to Sunday Mass at his local parish. 

Most Protestant services proclaim a simple gospel: repent from sin and follow Christ in faith. They stress the importance of a personal relationship with Jesus and the reward of eternal life. Most of the Catholics who attend these services are not accustomed to hearing such direct challenges to abandon sin and follow Christ. As a result, many Catholics experience a genuine conversion. 

We have more than a dozen former RC catholic families in our Presbyterian church who are now Protestants as I am. WE now have a few more Catholics attending Sunday services and exploring the Presbyterian church.

Studies show about five out of ten people adopt the beliefs of the denomination where they have their conversion. This percentage is even higher for those who had profound conversions or charismatic experiences that were provided by Protestants. Protestant pastors, evangelists, youth leaders, and lay ministers are acutely aware that conversion experiences in Protestant settings often lead to a Protestant faith and church membership. I know I was one!

Dudley


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## Rufus (Nov 2, 2011)

> We have more than a dozen former RC catholic families in our Presbyterian church who are now Protestants as I am. WE now have a few more Catholics attending Sunday services and exploring the Presbyterian church.



Sola Deo Gloria. Its a good thing to hear.


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## ericfromcowtown (Nov 3, 2011)

I would say false church and that it is "fair game" to evangelize Roman Catholics.

I heard someone once say that "the RC church wasn't a true church, but that you'd probably be surprised at how many Christians were sitting in its pews, and that protestant churches were true churches, but you'd probably be surprised at how many unregenerate people were sitting in its pews." I think that sums up my opinion.


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## Moireach (Nov 3, 2011)

ericfromcowtown said:


> I would say false church and that it is "fair game" to evangelize Roman Catholics.
> 
> I heard someone once say that "the RC church wasn't a true church, but that you'd probably be surprised at how many Christians were sitting in its pews, and that protestant churches were true churches, but you'd probably be surprised at how many unregenerate people were sitting in its pews." I think that sums up my opinion.



It's more than fair game. The RC church do a lot more harm to the cause of Christ than other false religions. I find it hard to believe that a regenerate Christian would be happy to remain in the Roman church. If a Roman Catholic was converted they would naturally move away from it's teachings.


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## ericfromcowtown (Nov 3, 2011)

Moireach said:


> ericfromcowtown said:
> 
> 
> > I would say false church and that it is "fair game" to evangelize Roman Catholics.
> ...



In my very limited experience interacting with Roman Catholics, I've found that many of the folks in the pews have very little understanding of the issues that we'd take exception with. For example, I've run into RCs who have no idea that their church teaches transubstantiation, and when asked if they believed in salvation through grace or salvation through grace + works would either emphatically say salvation through grace alone, or be confused by these terms. Are some of these people regenerate - I'd like to think so. I'd also expect that anyone in the Roman Catholic church who became mature in their faith / educated in Roman Catholic doctrine, and was also regenerate, would "naturally move away from it's teachings." In other words, while I'd expect that there are true Christians sitting in the pews of many Roman Catholic churches, I don't think the same thing could be said of Roman Catholic priests or others educated in the doctrines of their church. Does this make more sense?


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## Zach (Nov 3, 2011)

ericfromcowtown said:


> Moireach said:
> 
> 
> > ericfromcowtown said:
> ...



I agree with this. There is a professing Catholic attending my college Bible Study and he is adamant that Catholics believe one is saved by grace through faith alone. He even gave me a Cathloic Catechism to "prove it". I'm in the process of digging through it to find the parts where it talks about grace plus works, grace being administered through the sacraments, etc. Any of you former Roman Catholics have any advice on where to turn to gently show him if he believes what he believes he is not really a Catholic but a Protestant?


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## Moireach (Nov 3, 2011)

ericfromcowtown said:


> Moireach said:
> 
> 
> > ericfromcowtown said:
> ...



Yes. But personally I'm not convinced there are many. They're not taught to turn from sin and die to themselves daily. Unfortunately I think it would be isolated cases here and there.

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Zach said:


> I agree with this. There is a professing Catholic attending my college Bible Study and he is adamant that Catholics believe one is saved by grace through faith alone. He even gave me a Cathloic Catechism to "prove it". I'm in the process of digging through it to find the parts where it talks about grace plus works, grace being administered through the sacraments, etc. Any of you former Roman Catholics have any advice on where to turn to gently show him if he believes what he believes he is not really a Catholic but a Protestant?



This sermon would definitely be worth a listen Zach. At one point in the sermon he goes through some official Roman Catholic teaching, referring to the Catechism and so on. He deals really well with it. Very easy to listen to. There's no doubt they do *not* teach salvation by grace alone through faith alone.

The Papacy And Ecumenism In The 20th Century - SermonAudio.com


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## dudley (Nov 4, 2011)

Zach said:


> ericfromcowtown said:
> 
> 
> > Moireach said:
> ...



Zach....If you can get him to say that I am saved on faith by grace and justification and our righteousness is not something I merited but a gift of God and by making an affirmation of faith and accepting Christ alone as my savior, I am saved he is in essence a protestant ..he just 
does not yet see it….

Try to assist him to have a conversion experience in a Protestant setting. Most Protestant churches have dynamic youth programs, vibrant Wednesday and Sunday evening services, and friendly small-group bible studies. In addition, they host special crusades, seminars and concerts. At your invitation he may begin attending one or more of these events while still going to Sunday Mass at his local parish. 

Most Protestant services proclaim a simple gospel: repent from sin and follow Christ in faith. They stress the importance of a personal relationship with Jesus and the reward of eternal life. Most of the Catholics who attend these services are not accustomed to hearing such direct challenges to abandon sin and follow Christ. As a result, many Catholics experience a genuine conversion. 


Studies show about five out of ten people adopt the beliefs of the denomination where they have their conversion. This percentage is even higher for those who had profound conversions or charismatic experiences that were provided by Protestants. I believe that a conversion experience in Protestant setting often lead to a Protestant faith and church membership. I know I was one!

If you have a bible class at your church invite him…..be prepared to look at the following from scripture….John 3:3, and Matthew 15:7,8, 


Catholics hear the Scripture quoted and are taught to partake of Christ's death in order to be a part of His resurrection. They are taught about the blood of Jesus and the mystery of the Gospel, and so forth. It all seems so religious. 
However, they are not taught to be born-again as Jesus commanded in John 3:3, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." If you'll notice, every word the priest speaks at prayer time is recited from a piece of paper, and not from his heart as the Lord desires. Matthew 15:7,8, "Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me." 

Roman Catholic doctrines are not right. They directly contradict the scriptures. If he says he believes he is saved by faith alone …like I said he is a protestant but not aware of it yet. You can talk with him about all the efforts Roman Catholicism makes to have one think they are not saved by faith in Jesus Christ and His one and only needed sacrifice on Calvary for all who place their faith in Him alone. Roman Catholicism is all about control ,….remember Satan controls and it is Satan that is the true leader of Roman Catholicism…Roman Catholicism deceives…you can not say that to him…he needs to discover it himself…when he does he will renounce the Roman catholic religion as I did.....and as did the reformers. The Roman Catholic religion teaches multitudes to pray to "Mary" instead of in the name of Jesus. It calls its Mary "the Queen of Heaven". In Jeremiah chapters 7 and 44, point out to him that the Queen of Heaven is revealed to be a devil. 

The Roman Catholic institution says that our precious Lord Jesus is turned into a little cracker (the Eucharist) when the priest speaks certain words at the "mass". This is a very great blasphemy. Point out to him that celebrating the Lords Supper is a memorial of his one time only sacrifice on Calvary for all who place their faith in him alone for salvation. 
Help him see the blasphemy of the roman catholic mass and their eucharist by citing the following:

Point out to him that if he believes as he says that I can do nothing myself to save myself it is only by His suffering and Gods Grace which gave me faith in Him alone to say I confess in Christ alone to have salvation; than he will see the falacy of the mass and its eucharist. Help him see that if I give Glory to God alone and I follow the scriptures alone to know what is correct I am a Protestant and as such I always remember that the elements are still bread and wine only and Christ is not in the elements but comes to me in communion through faith alone. The following from scriptures is important to read read with him to help him see the truth.

Hebrews 7:27
27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 
Hebrews 10:11-12
11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 
Hebrews 10:14
14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. 
Hebrews 10:18
18 And where these have been forgiven, “sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.” 

Many Catholics possess and pray to little statue idols that they call "saints" when the Bible says do not make unto thyself any graven image (Exodus 20:4). They light candles for the dead, bow before relics (e.g., a dead man's finger) and believe in a fictional purgatory that they try to pay their way out of--more money for the coffers of the "church". Their leaders have deceived them and are making merchandise of them. The love of money is the root of all evil. There are many heresies that Catholics are taught to believe but if they will only decide that the word of God is true, they can come out of these deceptions in an instant. If you are a former Roman Catholic, you are familiar with the Romish rituals. You must never return to those unclean things. Get rid of all traces of Romanism in your life-- including the rosary which is used for what our Lord Jesus Christ called, "vain repetition" (Matthew 6:7). 

It is why I encourage former roman Catholics to renounce entirely every thing that is Roman catholic and divorce themselves of the apostate church and the harlot of Satan who is the whore of Babylon. I think your friend will soon also renounce the Roman catholic church. He is already protestant ...but does not know it yet, you need to gently guide him and God will take over and give him the grace of the true faith the Reformed Protestant faith !


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## Bill The Baptist (Nov 5, 2011)

“the Church of Rome, formerly the most holy of all Churches, has become the most lawless den of thieves, the most shameless of all brothels, the very kingdom of sin, death, and hell; so that not even antichrist, if he were to come, could devise any addition to its wickedness.” 
-Martin Luther


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## Stargazer65 (Nov 5, 2011)

Seventeen years in Roman Catholicism and never did I learn to repent from sin and turn to faith in Christ for my salvation. Never did I learn that I needed to be born again. And I was diligent, I even wanted to be a priest during my youth.

A few months with evangelical protestants and I grasped these truths. When I was born again I frequently still went to RCC for about a year, I thought I had just missed the essential truth when they taught it. But I never heard the true gospel being preached during that year, so I left. 

There are surely other Christians in the RCC. But they heard the gospel through other means. Not through the RCC.


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## irresistible_grace (Nov 5, 2011)

Brother Dudley,

Much of what you say (your *opinion* concerning The Roman Catholic Church) could be said of the majority of "American" so-called Christianity. Looking over the website []Presbyterian Church - Manasquan: Weekly Worship of the church in which you are a member terrifies me personally. However, I would not take it upon myself to say it was a cult or false religion (scary yes - a cult no). I agree with the quote by Martin Luther that was posted above, “the Church of Rome, formerly the most holy of all Churches, has become the most lawless den of thieves, the most shameless of all brothels, the very kingdom of sin, death, and hell; so that not even antichrist, if he were to come, could devise any addition to its wickedness.” And, I also find myself agreeing to some degree with the statement that "the RC church wasn't a true church, but that you'd probably be surprised at how many Christians were sitting in its pews, and that protestant churches were true churches, but you'd probably be surprised at how many unregenerate people were sitting in its pews." This does in any way imply for a moment that I don't see a need to bring the true "evangel" to Roman Catholics ... I was baptized RC as an infant and my father's entire side of the family is Roman Catholic so I see the need first hand. However, I also believe that there is much room for improvement even within the "Refomed" Christian community. Many churches that profess to be "Reformed" are not ... (I'll just pause there for a while)! 

In Christian Love,
Jess


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## dudley (Nov 5, 2011)

Stargazer65 said:


> Seventeen years in Roman Catholicism and never did I learn to repent from sin and turn to faith in Christ for my salvation. Never did I learn that I needed to be born again. And I was diligent, I even wanted to be a priest during my youth.
> 
> A few months with evangelical protestants and I grasped these truths. When I was born again I frequently still went to RCC for about a year, I thought I had just missed the essential truth when they taught it. But I never heard the true gospel being preached during that year, so I left.
> 
> There are surely other Christians in the RCC. But they heard the gospel through other means. Not through the RCC.



I agree with you when you say " There are surely other Christians in the RCC. But they heard the gospel through other means. Not through the RCC." that is why I encouraged Zach to gently guide his friend who appears to be already in the process of being born again and is really now a Protestant but is not fully aware of that fact yet.


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## Galatians220 (Nov 5, 2011)

For assistance in witnessing to Catholics and if you are a former Catholic who occasionally needs questions answered, please, please go to Richard Bennett's Berean Beacon website. Mr. Bennett has personally answered my e-mails and is a scholarly, thoughtful, kind, _natural_ _pastor._ He was a Catholic priest who saw the heresy of the church and came out; his autobiography is a wonderful read. Although he lives at quite a distance from me, he is the closest thing I've had to a real pastor in all the time that it's been since I left the RCC.

I'm surrounded by Catholics. In a sea of 'em. I live within about 3 miles of 3 different Catholic parishes, each of which has about 8,000 members. The municipality in which I live has 90,000 people, more than two-thirds of whom are Catholic. My entire family (outside of nuclear) and all of my friends are Catholics. The one thing I would not do, after more than 20 years of being in Reformed Protestant churches and over 16 years of being (knowingly) saved, is witness to a happy Catholic. I will pray for them, that the Lord softens them so that they may be open to the real Gospel, but I wouldn't repeat the experience I had about 10 years ago of going to my Catholic high school reunion-planning gathering and using it as a one-on-one, very gentle witnessing opportunity. That failed miserably. If someone is happy attending mass - and they _do_ know what's going on at the mass's "consecration" - I don't mess with them.

Carry on...


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## dudley (Nov 6, 2011)

Moireach said:


> Hmm. I'm right behind you Dudley, it's certainly not a true Church. Infact I, and many before me, believe at its head is the anti-Christ. The Biblical argument for this is well summed up in a sermon by David Silversides on Sermonaudio.com.
> 
> But what Richard says is interesting. Must say I hadn't pieced that together before...
> It is of course an apostasy, in that it came from Christianity, so bears the appearance of Christianity and claims to be Christian. But it's still a very interesting point Richard because I'd obviously have said it is absolutely no longer the temple of God in any way. I'll have to look into that..



“In fact I, and many before me, believe at its head is the anti-Christ.” David I agree completely. I left the RCC in 2006 because I was completely turned off to the current pope and I no longer believed he was the vicar of Christ. I concurred with my Protestant friends that he was an antichrist. I started to attend their protestant church after that and eventually came to the Reformed faith and became a Presbyterian. I believe the papacy is an anti Christ institution and I do believe the pope and definitely the current pope “Rat” zinger is an antichrist. I have come to completely renounce all that is Roman Catholicism and I hold to the original Westminster Confession of Faith that he is the man of sin , and perdition . CHAPTER XXV.
Of the Church.
VI. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ: nor can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the Church against Christ, and all that is called God.


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## Zach (Nov 6, 2011)

Moireach said:


> ericfromcowtown said:
> 
> 
> > Moireach said:
> ...



Thanks for sharing this sermon. I will hopefully get a chance to listen to it soon. I'm specifically looking for information about the Catechism because he gave me one to "check out" so this will be most helpful. Unfortunately it will probably take some time before I get to listen to it.


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## dudley (Nov 6, 2011)

Moireach said:


> ericfromcowtown said:
> 
> 
> > I would say false church and that it is "fair game" to evangelize Roman Catholics.
> ...


“If a Roman Catholic was converted they would naturally move away from it's teachings.” David I agree with you here also and it is exactly why I left ..at first as a rejection of the papacy….then I learned more and by the grace of God had “a true Protestant conversion” very much like John Calvin described of himself. The Romanists have a man made religion designed by the papacy for over 1500 years. It is a false Christian sect which distorts the true Gospel.

Charles Spurgeon: "It is the bounden duty of every Christian to pray against Antichrist, and as to what Antichrist is no sane man ought to raise a question. If it be not the popery in the Church of Rome there is nothing in the world that can be called by that name. If there were to be issued a hue and cry for Antichrist, we should certainly take up this church on suspicion, and it would certainly not be let loose again, for it so exactly answers the description." "Popery is contrary to Christ´s Gospel, and is the Antichrist, and we ought to pray against it. It should be the daily prayer of every believer that Antichrist might be hurled like a millstone into the flood and for Christ, because it wounds Christ, because it robs Christ of His glory, because it puts sacramental efficacy in the place of His atonement, and lifts a piece of bread into the place of the Saviour, and a few drops of water into the place of the Holy Ghost, and puts a mere fallible man like ourselves up as the vicar of Christ on earth; if we pray against it, because it is against Him, we shall love the persons though we hate their errors: we shall love their souls though we loath and detest their dogmas, and so the breath of our prayers will be sweetened, because we turn our faces towards Christ when we pray."

John Wesley: Speaking of the Papacy he said, "He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers... He it is...that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped...claiming the highest power, and highest honour...claiming the prerogatives which belong to God alone." Taken from Antichrist and His Ten Kingdoms by John Wesley, pg. 110.


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## Peairtach (Nov 6, 2011)

Moireach said:


> Hmm. I'm right behind you Dudley, it's certainly not a true Church. Infact I, and many before me, believe at its head is the anti-Christ. The Biblical argument for this is well summed up in a sermon by David Silversides on Sermonaudio.com.
> 
> But what Richard says is interesting. Must say I hadn't pieced that together before...
> It is of course an apostasy, in that it came from Christianity, so bears the appearance of Christianity and claims to be Christian. But it's still a very interesting point Richard because I'd obviously have said it is absolutely no longer the temple of God in any way. I'll have to look into that..



There are lots of Protestant churches that are apostate, too, but are still part of the visible Church. We accept the baptism of the RCs, Greek Catholics and Liberal Protestant churches, not just the baptism of churches that subsribe to the WCF. 

That doesn't mean that we don't believe that they need to be evangelised, anymore than the apostate in Israel didn't need to be "evangelised" by the true prophets. Indeed at one stage the whole of the Northern Kingdom went astray under Jeroboam, and continued in that state until the Assyrians took them away.

This was the Old Testament visible Church


> And Jeroboam said in his heart, "Now the kingdom will turn back to the house of David. If this people go up to offer sacrifices in the temple of the LORD at Jerusalem, then the heart of this people will turn again to their lord, to Rehoboam king of Judah, and they will kill me and return to Rehoboam king of Judah." So the king took counsel and made two calves of gold. And he said to the people, "You have gone up to Jerusalem long enough. Behold your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt." (I Kings 12:26-28, ESV)



There are plenty more examples from the OT, and NT.


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