# Dispute between Ames and Maccovius?



## RamistThomist (Nov 24, 2016)

I keep seeing a dispute between the two men referenced but nothing specific turns up. What was the controversy between Ames and Maccovius?


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## py3ak (Nov 24, 2016)

The Synod of Dort had a committee that reconciled Maccovious to Lubbertus, and Maccovius was advised to be more cautious, but other than that few details are readily available. After that, according to the New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia, there was conflict with Ames because Maccovius had some odd notions about faith - as that some things that must be believed are not necessarily true. However, there was also a moral element to it: when Ames and others brought charges against Maccovius to get him fired, it was about lifestyle.

If you can get the book, _Revisiting the Synod of Dordt_, Willem van Asselt has a chapter "On the Maccovius Affair." Also Jan Van Vliet's _The Rise of Reformed System_ has some discussion of Maccovius.


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## Dachaser (Nov 25, 2016)

what was bothering them so much on his lifestyle?


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## py3ak (Nov 25, 2016)

I don't know exactly. Van Vliet suggests that it was the difference between the Puritan/Nadere Reformatie strain represented in Ames vs. the not-as-strict line of the broader Reformed world. Maccovius was from Poland and a member of the nobility, so he might well have been used to a style of life that would seem self-indulgent to others.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 25, 2016)

Richard Muller mentioned in a lecture that part of the problem was a difference in viewing alcoholic beverages


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## Dachaser (Nov 25, 2016)

That "problem" still is affecting Christians even today, as there is a variety of opinions on that issue.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 25, 2016)

Dachaser said:


> That "problem" still is affecting Christians even today, as there is a variety of opinions on that issue.



There are a lot of "opinions," but Christian praxis throughout the ages has been consistent on this point.


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## Dachaser (Nov 25, 2016)

Know that there are some who say no drinking allowed period, while sayin moderation, both sides would agree no drunkness allowed.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 25, 2016)

Dachaser said:


> Know that there are some who say no drinking allowed period, while sayin moderation, both sides would agree no drunkness allowed.



The no drinking at all crowd owes a lot to the semi-Pelagian revivals in American history. Mind you, I am bothered by the excesses one sees at places like "Reformed Pub" on Facebook.


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## Dachaser (Nov 25, 2016)

I have had discussions with those very firm against the use of it, and they have yet to provide a scripture that states none is what God decided on this issue, as Jesus turned it into wine, not grape Juice. like my fellow Baptists would believe!


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## MW (Nov 25, 2016)

In Kuyper's Thesis on Maccovius, "The Controversy between Maccovius and Amesius" is found on pp. 315-396, and gives a good overview of the points in dispute.

Introduction, 315-317.
What every one is bound to believe, 317-339.
Preparatory grace before regeneration, 339-352.
The Word of God before regeneration, 352-356.
The primacy of the intellect in regeneration, 357-365.
Whether Christ should be worshiped as Mediator, 366-396.

According to Kuyper some of the controversy grew out of the Aristotelian views of Maccovius coming into conflict with the Ramist views of Ames. Others see dissension arising mostly because of issues with practical theology, but that could also be the result of the Aristotelian-Ramist differences. Ramism was useful to the Puritans because it allowed a type of dialectic which could distinguish faith and obedience without making a sharp separation between them.

See also, Keith L. Sprunger, The Learned Doctor William Ames, chapter on the University of Franeker.

[It is important to distinguish the earlier Maccovius-Lubbertus debate at the time of the Synod of Dort, in which Ames sought Maccovius' acceptance, and the latter debate between Maccovius and Ames over the issues mentioned by Kuyper.]


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## Dachaser (Nov 26, 2016)

What would be Aristotelian and Ramist views, never read those terms before?


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## MW (Nov 27, 2016)

Dachaser said:


> What would be Aristotelian and Ramist views, never read those terms before?



The following might be a little wordy but gives a general outline of the main points: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ramus/


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## Dachaser (Nov 28, 2016)

That was indeed heavy reading material, so there basic disagreements concerned the very nature of how do we know and live out truth?


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