# Martial Arts



## FrozenChosen (Dec 21, 2004)

In order to not hijack the other thread...



> _Originally posted by SmokingFlax_
> What do y'all think of aikido?



Because I'm a JKD _concepts_ guy I would say go for it if you're thinking about it. Aikido is good because you must spar (for lack of a better term) to learn the material. I've heard lots of stories about blackbelts in Karate and Tae Kwon Do schools (where sparring wasn't emphasized) getting knocked out in a street fight because they didn't know what it meant to feel real pressure and pain.

In fact, there is an aikido school in Pensacola and if I can ever scrounge enough money up I want to check it out. The reason I would take it is because it's great for learning how to make someone do what you want them to do by manipulating the mechanics of the body. And those principles I imagine can only help any other MA study.


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## RamistThomist (Dec 21, 2004)

When I did both Tae Kwon Do and Karate sparring was emphasized.


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## FrozenChosen (Dec 21, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> When I did both Tae Kwon Do and Karate sparring was emphasized.



Oh, I hope my post wasn't unclear. I didn't mean to sound like I was saying that all Karate and TKD schools avoid sparring. I meant that there are a few that don't and it's dangerous.

Did you ever have the kinds of martial arts philosophies presented in your classes or schools?


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## RamistThomist (Dec 21, 2004)

No,
My instructor was a member of the SWAT team and he went to my church. I am familiar with most of the philosophies.


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## blhowes (Dec 21, 2004)

> _Originally posted by blhowes_
> Also, where does the power come from when somebody focuses their 'chi' (SP?) and does such amazing things? One example comes to mind. Last year, my youngest went to some martial arts classes for most of the year. At the dojo, there's a picture of the head of the dojo standing in front of a line of probably 15 or 20 good sized men. One of the men was my son's sinsay (SP?), who probably weighed somewhere between 400 and 500 lb. Anyway, all these guys in the line were trying unsuccessfully to move the head guy, who I'd estimate was somewhere between 150 and 200 lbs. Where'd all that power come from?



So, does anybody have any idea how some of these guys can do these things?

[Edited on 12-23-2004 by blhowes]


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## RamistThomist (Dec 21, 2004)

Bob you raise excellent points.
I am going to respond more in detail later because for a brief while (in my early high school years) I was drawn into the whole "chi" phenomenon. I am in a hurry at the moment so I can't be detaieled. 

As a presuppositionalist I must answer (tongue in cheek) in the affirmative; of course they will be affected. On the other hand, if your sensei doesn't feel a problem and you are not burning incense to ancestors, there probably wont be a problem. I have several excellent martial arts works that are sympathetic to this perspective. I will quote from them later.


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## tdowns (Dec 21, 2004)

*On a comical note in regards to Martial arts...*

Is it taught early on, that you should constantly be practicing your moves on your friends everytime their around, sometimes (or often times depending on skill of person) accidentally hitting or kicking them.
Just posting for fun, but there is truth to it, seems every one of my friends or aquaintances who take some form of Martial Arts are constanly wanting to do some karate move on you....and these guys are black belts....

Just curious if anyone else has noticed this, I personally don't like the experience and tell them that promptly.

lol,
TD


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## blhowes (Dec 21, 2004)

> _Originally posted by tdowns007_
> Is it taught early on, that you should constantly be practicing your moves on your friends everytime their around, sometimes (or often times depending on skill of person) accidentally hitting or kicking them.
> Just posting for fun, but there is truth to it, seems every one of my friends or aquaintances who take some form of Martial Arts are constanly wanting to do some karate move on you....and these guys are black belts....
> 
> Just curious if anyone else has noticed this, I personally don't like the experience and tell them that promptly.



I never had friends who were like this, but I remember when I was a senior in high school a fellow student, who had a 2nd or 3rd degree black belt provoked me during class, looking for an opportunity to demonstrate his skills. It was during a time not not long before the race riots broke out in our school. I don't know whether it was fear or common sense, but I decided to just ignore him. I like to think it was common sense, but...


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## FrozenChosen (Dec 21, 2004)

It's hard to tell with me, because so many of the guys I know are a bit more on the rough side. College guys. Psh.


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## Scot (Dec 21, 2004)

Not to take away from anyone or their training but I'm just not that impressed with the traditional martial arts. Bruce Lee saw through it years ago (and made everyone angry). The training just isn't practical. And what happens when the "Karate guy" gets taken off his feet? Usually, unless he's cross-trained, he's clueless. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate anyone who trains hard in any martial art but for real life fighting situations, most of them give a false sense of security in my opinion. I do like JKD concepts because they take what's useful from every style and discard the rest.

If anyone's been in a real fight, you know that it usually doesn't go like it does in the classroom or in the movies. It's very seldom that a person connects with a devestating blow to end the fight. It usually ends up on the ground. I love watching the mixed martial arts events where there's no weight classes and everyone has a different style. 98% of the time, the striker throws a punch or a kick, the grappler shoots in and takes him to the ground, applies an arm bar or rear naked choke and the fight is over.

Of course, if you're on the street and you have to fight more than one guy, you want to stay on your feet. I guess what I'm saying is that I think you have to cross train in order to be effective.

O.k., I'm done ranting.

(me practicing my head butts)


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## blhowes (Dec 21, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Scot_
> Of course, if you're on the street and you have to fight more than one guy, you want to stay on your feet. I guess what I'm saying is that I think you have to cross train in order to be effective.


I think the training I received while a junior in high school also has its merits...cross country.

[Edited on 12-21-2004 by blhowes]


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## alwaysreforming (Dec 21, 2004)

*I HATE \"Ultimate Fighting\"*

I've seen a couple of those "mixed-martial arts" contests/cage matches, etc, and I'm appalled at the level of brutality.

On the other hand, I think an arena like that is the only place to truly prove which martial art and/or fighter is truly the best.

I'm obviously very impressed with Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and other types of "grappling" arts, because when it gets down to it, it seems like that's what really goes down when artificial restrictions aren't put on a fight.

I'm wanting to take Jeet Kune Do because I read Bruce Lee's "The Tao of Jeet Kune Do" and I was fascinated at his fighting theory and wisdom. Even though it seems like Braz. J.J. might be most effective, I don't like the idea of training with my body pressed up close to a bunch of sweaty, smelly guys 3 times/week. How could a look forward to doing THAT Mon/Wed/Fri?

My only problem is, I've never been able to find an instructor for it. I'll be in Orlando soon, and last time I checked, there was no one.

I remember we had a "martial arts" thread a while back, and you'll never believe who is such a seasoned martial artist....
the Webmaster!


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## SmokingFlax (Dec 21, 2004)

Trevor,

I got a big laugh off of your post...and from my experience, you didn't need any belt to practice your moves on anyone...just a nice falsetto aaaaiiiiieeeee and a couple of kicks or punches flying past someone's head. 

Ultimate fighting *is* pretty brutal...but I have to admit I found it pretty interesting watching some little 170 lb dude take out the big guys. That Gracie guy was amazing -it seemed like he could beat you from any position. Also, I don't know that it is a whole lot more brutal than boxing.

Quote:

"College guys. Psh."



I don't know what this says about me but...
I swear I've seen more girl fights than guys. It seemed like every other weekend There was a cat fight going on...I thought they were hilarious.


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## Scot (Dec 21, 2004)

> I think the training I received while a junior in high school also has its merits...cross country.






> I've seen a couple of those "mixed-martial arts" contests/cage matches, etc, and I'm appalled at the level of brutality.



I have hundreds of fights on video and dvd. UFC, Pride Fighting, King of the Cage, World Combat Championships, Reality Superfighting, Extreme Fighting, etc. It is actually much safer than boxing. It looks pretty brutal because of the blood but the injurys that are usually sustained are only flesh wounds. I appreciate the fact that most (not all) of the fighters are very professional. They can go after each other kicking, puching, etc. and after the fight shake hands and congratulate one another on the fight. Some of them even train together. I've never seen anyone bite someone's ear off like Tyson did. 



> I'm wanting to take Jeet Kune Do because I read Bruce Lee's "The Tao of Jeet Kune Do" and I was fascinated at his fighting theory and wisdom.



I have that book. It's awesome. 



> Even though it seems like Braz. J.J. might be most effective, I don't like the idea of training with my body pressed up close to a bunch of sweaty, smelly guys 3 times/week. How could a look forward to doing THAT Mon/Wed/Fri?



 It's not that bad, you actually don't even think about it when your grappling. All your thinking about is trying to survive without getting trapped in a submission.



> My only problem is, I've never been able to find an instructor for it. I'll be in Orlando soon, and last time I checked, there was no one.



Do what I used to do. I got a video called "Ultimate Groundfighting." It's a instruction video on the basics of groundfighting. I got ahold of some friends and we used it to start training. It's definately not as good as having the instructor right there with you but I learned enough to survive in a fight. In fact, I got to use some of it for real about 3-4 years ago. "The aggressor" went to the hospital for knee and neck injuries.

It is alot of fun and you get a good workout.

SmokingFlax wrote:


> That Gracie guy was amazing -it seemed like he could beat you from any position.



Yeah, he's awesome. Have you seen any of the other Gracie's fight? The whole family fights. I like Renzo Gracie. He seems to be more aggressive and uses more punches and kicks than Royce. Rickson Gracie is supposed to be the best. I've never seen him fight but the last time I heard he was up to four hundred and some wins and zero losses. The Father (Helio) is ninety some years old and still teaches.

I just rented another ultimate fighting DVD to watch tonight.


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## FrozenChosen (Dec 21, 2004)

> _Originally posted by alwaysreforming_
> I'm wanting to take Jeet Kune Do because I read Bruce Lee's "The Tao of Jeet Kune Do" and I was fascinated at his fighting theory and wisdom. Even though it seems like Braz. J.J. might be most effective, I don't like the idea of training with my body pressed up close to a bunch of sweaty, smelly guys 3 times/week. How could a look forward to doing THAT Mon/Wed/Fri?



Well, JKD includes a LOT of BJJ. In fact, since I've joined the JKD group at Auburn that's all we've been doing, and Sifu (the instructor) has encouraged us to check out the BJJ club if we've got time. And after my first JKD class where we looked at BJJ, I was hooked. Rolling (sparring) has got to be one of the easiest ways to get a solid workout.

But there is more to JKD than BJJ or other forms of grappling. We are going to study Western Boxing and a little Muay Thai (Philipino kick-boxing with knees and elbows). Then we'll go into Kali, which is Philipino stick-fighting. All the moves are applicable to any kind of long stiff object you have, like an umbrella or a rolled-up newspaper. The angles also apply to knife-fighting, which is great.



> I remember we had a "martial arts" thread a while back, and you'll never believe who is such a seasoned martial artist....
> the Webmaster!



No way, I want to hear some stories! Why don't we call him "Websensei"?


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## SmokingFlax (Dec 22, 2004)

I only saw Royce Gracie fight a few times -which is about how many times I've seen that Ultimate Fighting Challenge thing...and that was like 10 years ago. In one fight he was on the bottom and I didn't even understand how he got the big dude on top of him to submit till they showed in slo-mo how he somehow used the big guy's own shirt to cut off his air intake.


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## FrozenChosen (Dec 22, 2004)

> _Originally posted by SmokingFlax_
> I only saw Royce Gracie fight a few times -which is about how many times I've seen that Ultimate Fighting Challenge thing...and that was like 10 years ago. In one fight he was on the bottom and I didn't even understand how he got the big dude on top of him to submit till they showed in slo-mo how he somehow used the big guy's own shirt to cut off his air intake.



Haha, that's funny. I was in Barnes and Noble looking at that very technique in a Gracie BJJ book last night. After Christmas gets through and I finish a few more books, Bruce Lee and the Gracies are going to provide some stiff competition for theological authors for book money!


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## twogunfighter (Dec 22, 2004)

To those of you that prefer to fight from the ground:

How do you deal with a multiple attacker scenario?


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## FrozenChosen (Dec 22, 2004)

Because I've only had BJJ for a short while I don't know of many ways to deal with multiple attackers, I guess I would do one of the following:

1) If no one is with me, I would probably run.
2) arm bar, or dislocate a shoulder
3) break his nose (lots of pain in a sensitive area as well as causing the eyes to water, but this really only buys time)
4) if someone is unfortunate enough to show me their back I would punch the spine or back of the head

I think I would always prefer to knock someone out or maniuplate an arm or something to where they couldn't do anything, if it was a worst case scenario you can snap the neck a number of ways or if someone shows you his back there are even more options, like punching the kidneys.

I don't carry any kind of weapon on me, but soon I hope that will change. I wouldn't mind a small fold-out knife or something like that.

Thinking of how far you'd hurt someone is something I've done a bit since I started taking MA, and it's always a tough subject to think about. I would rather incapacitate someone till the police arrive and can make the arrest, but I realize that's not always an option.


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## SmokingFlax (Dec 22, 2004)

When I was in H.S. I had a naive notion that there was somekind of an unspoken code of honor in fighting wherein it was considered pretty cowardly for two or more guys to jump one person -it seemed to be the code amongst the group/neighborhood where I hung out. 

That all changed after getting my face kicked in by a bunch of guys at a field days when I was a junior. I don't know that martial arts would've been any help at all in that situation...a gun maybe.


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## FrozenChosen (Dec 22, 2004)

(This is kind of theoretical, not actual) Guns are great if you can get them out while there is plenty of room between you and your opponent. A pistol whipping is also a good thing. But at close quarters if you're outnumbered I would imagine that a gun would be bad business for you if you pulled one out. It would make your attackers even more angry, and if they got a hold of it they may shoot you.

I'd prefer a knife, which at close range is much more of a dangerous weapon than a gun. If you apply a knife to the first five strikes in the Inosanto Kali method, only God could save your opponent.


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## Scot (Dec 22, 2004)

> To those of you that prefer to fight from the ground:
> 
> How do you deal with a multiple attacker scenario?



Then you definately need stand up skills and the speed of Bruce Lee.


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## twogunfighter (Dec 23, 2004)

Ok FC, 

Seems like then that even in BJJ with multiple attackers you remain standing. Which makes sense. 

On guns, I respectfully suggest that it take less time to develop the muscle memory and situational awareness skills to effectively engage multiple attackers with a pistol than with a knife.


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## tdowns (Dec 23, 2004)

*Master Kick Boxer...*

Check out Napolean Dynamite, now out on DVD for some master cage fighting techniques.

That movie is a crack up. Sorry, love reading about the Martial Arts, but know not much about it, so nothing productive to say, so just throwing in some comedy.

Def. check out Nap. Dynamite though, very funny "Karate Moves"


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## Don (Dec 31, 2004)

I trained for several years in Judo, BJJ, and sambo. I think that BJJ or Judo (which are basically the same) mixed with either boxing or thai kickboxing is the most realistic you can get. My judo instructor also taught aikido, however, i just didn't see that as being too realistic. He won the judo state championship several times (once with a broken arm). He never could compete nationally or on a world level because he always got hurt. Now he's about 55 or 60 and has had just about every bone broken, teeth knocked out, shoulder replaced, both legs broken at the same time, and a tore his sciatic nerve somehow. 

My judo instructor hated the Gracies and everytime I mentioned their names he would let me know it. All the Gracies really did was "repackage" judo and they made millions doing it. I used to think they were different until my judo instructor showed me what he knew grappling. 

The only time I had to use anything in a real situation was back in my college days. I used one of the chokes to break up a fight that involved several people. I did it standing (leaning) in the corner of the room and had to tuck my face so I wouldn't get hit with all the people around. The choke is actually the safest route to win. It was kinda funny because when the guy passed out everyone suddenly stopped, thinking I had killed him. He was okay of course as this happens all the time in Judo competitions. 

As far as multiple attackers, unless you are much more athletic and stronger than the others, you might as well hang it up and run. If you decide to stay, be prepared to take a beating also!  

Unless they have recently changed, I personally think the Gracie's are way overpriced and don't show much of anything on the tapes I have seen. Go with Mario Sperry's and Murillo Bustamante's tapes. In my opinion these are the best. Also, Pedro Carvalho's tapes on tournament BJJ are really good. I could not believe all the "secrets" Mario showed on those tapes.





[Edited on 31-12-2004 by Don]

[Edited on 31-12-2004 by Don]


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## Don (Dec 31, 2004)

Originally posted by SmokingFlax
I only saw Royce Gracie fight a few times -which is about how many times I've seen that Ultimate Fighting Challenge thing...and that was like 10 years ago. In one fight he was on the bottom and I didn't even understand how he got the big dude on top of him to submit till they showed in slo-mo how he somehow used the big guy's own shirt to cut off his air intake. 

If you are speaking of Dan Severn, he used the triangle choke to win that one. Basically, you choke them out with your legs. Doesn't take too much practice to learn and it is very effective. It cuts you off fast.


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