# The Goodness of God



## pgwolv (Feb 9, 2022)

Hi all

In what way would one convey the goodness of God to an unbeliever?

Specifically, the charge was made that, to determine someone's goodness, one would not ask that person. Hence, they refuse to take God at His Word when He says He is good. They also point to the cruelty in the world (the problem of evil) and the doctrine of election/reprobation (making vessels specifically for destruction) to indicate that God cannot be good. 

This is difficult for me to wrap my head around, as it concerns the essence of God.

I know He is good to His Sheep, but how do I convey His innate and perfect Goodness to an unbeliever? Or is it futile to attempt such until that person is regenerated through the inward working of the Holy Spirit?


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## Jeri Tanner (Feb 9, 2022)

No expert in this. But one thing that seems right to me is to point to the orderliness and dependability of the sun rising and setting, the rain for food and water, the wonder of the stars and planets. The pushback will be, but we also have tornadoes, draught, floods, pestilence, poverty, death. And the reply to that will point to the fall of man and with him of all creation, but the promise of coming redemption. 

Always in the unregenerate heart there’ll be resentment over the fallenness of our world, but the goodness of the general orderliness and bounty of creation is obvious, nevertheless. God must work to open eyes to comprehend it.

Reactions: Like 5


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## Taylor (Feb 9, 2022)

Asking questions is almost always helpful. It takes the pressure off you and makes them do the thinking, while making you seem nonthreatening. Some good questions to ask:

What is goodness?
How do you determine something is good? What criteria do you use?
Where do you get these criteria?
What makes your criteria authoritative or reliable? How do you know?
What if someone else has a different idea of what is good? How do you determine which is right?
If you press these questions, you and your interlocutor will soon discover that, without the triune God of Scripture, the very idea of "good" is arbitrary and nonsensical.

Reactions: Like 9


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## pgwolv (Feb 9, 2022)

Jeri Tanner said:


> No expert in this. But one thing that seems right to me is to point to the orderliness and dependability of the sun rising and setting, the rain for food and water, the wonder of the stars and planets. The pushback will be, but we also have tornadoes, draught, floods, pestilence, poverty, death. And the reply to that will point to the fall of man and with him of all creation, but the promise of coming redemption.
> 
> Always in the unregenerate heart there’ll be resentment over the fallenness of our world, but the goodness of the general orderliness and bounty of creation is obvious, nevertheless. God must work to open eyes to comprehend it.


Thank you; this fits nicely into our framework and worldview of Creation, Fall, Redemption.

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## Claudiu (Feb 9, 2022)

Taylor said:


> Asking questions is almost always helpful. It takes the pressure off you and makes them do the thinking, while making you seem nonthreatening. Some good questions to ask:
> 
> What is goodness?
> How do you determine something is good? What criteria do you use?
> ...


This. I think people assume we all mean the same thing by “goodness” when that’s simply not the case. It’s sort of like talking to a Mormon and assuming we mean the same thing when we say “Jesus.”

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## TheInquirer (Feb 9, 2022)

Taylor has some great questions - very presuppositional.

I might be more obnoxious and say something like - 'Well you breath his air, eat his food, you slander and charge him with evil he hasn't committed and yet he hasn't thrown you in hell yet for your wickedness. I would call that merciful which flows from his goodness."

The problem with unbelievers is that they are often self-righteous and think they can judge God. Sometimes I like to "flip the script" and say something shocking to upend their thinking and put them on defense and get them off their self-righteous and wicked judgementalism toward God.

And yes, I have said stuff like that before (usually with people I know well who are trying to be provocative and get under my skin). It definitely changes the direction of the conversation. Most unbelievers expect Christians to stay on the defensive and be timid. I'd rather take the approach from the perspective that God allows Himself to be judged by no one so how dare you. 

I should add I only take this approach with people who are attacking Christianity out of pride. Someone who is more sensitive and seems to honestly be struggling with the problem of evil I think would do better with Taylor's approach or walking someone through Scripture and showing them aspects of God's goodness.

If you want a great resource on God's goodness, I absolutely loved Van Mastricht's chapter in his second volume of Theoretical-Practical Theology. Probably the best I have read on the topic (but not everyone likes Van Mastricht's style as much as I do). Augustine has some great stuff on God as the Greatest Good (summum bonum) which would be an excellent approach for some. I could dig out the references if someone wanted.

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## Taylor (Feb 9, 2022)

TheInquirer said:


> Taylor has some great questions - very presuppositional.
> 
> I might be more obnoxious and say something like - 'Well you breath his air, eat his food, you slander and charge him with evil he hasn't committed and yet he hasn't thrown you in hell yet for your wickedness. I would call that merciful which flows from his goodness."
> 
> ...


Good points. And you are right, each person needs to be addressed according to their demeanor and their motives. Wisdom is required.


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## pgwolv (Feb 9, 2022)

TheInquirer said:


> I could dig out the references if someone wanted.


Yes, please! And thank you for the sound advice.


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## Faythe (Feb 9, 2022)

The absolute best thing I can do in similar conversations is to pray quickly and ask for my words to be guided by the Holy Spirit.


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