# Seventh Day Adventism



## scottmaciver (Jun 5, 2017)

I listened to Rev Ian Goligher who preached a series on Countering the Cults & gave an address on  Seventh Day Adventism - Grace or Guilt. Despite the series title, he seemed to hold off calling them a cult. He seemed to be exercising a bit of restraint and also mentioned that there could be true believers in the SDA Church.

The address focused on the Gospel and where the SDA's go wrong. However, my question is should we consider them as a cult and would you agree that there may be true believers in the SDA's?


----------



## Jake (Jun 5, 2017)

From my experience of talking to members, the SDA is a broad church with differences from congregation to congregation. Some emphasize Mrs. White and her heretical teachings much more, whereas others emphasize the Bible much more and would barely talk about their founding prophetess.


----------



## SolaScriptura (Jun 5, 2017)

Jake said:


> From my experience of talking to members, the SDA is a broad church with differences from congregation to congregation. Some emphasize Mrs. White and her heretical teachings much more, whereas others emphasize the Bible much more and would barely talk about their founding prophetess.



This has been my experience as well. Incidentally, I know military chaplains from both these sides. Talking to the ones who emphasize White... they very much had a mindset, perspective, and "style" of talking that was very much like a cultist. Further, they often openly derided their more "Bible focused" SDA brethren as being unfaithful or sellouts. On the other hand, the SDA folks I've encountered who focus on the Bible and rarely (if ever) mention White... they seemed like somewhat legalistic evangelicals, but certainly not cultists.

Reactions: Informative 2


----------



## Dachaser (Jun 5, 2017)

scottmaciver said:


> I listened to Rev Ian Goligher who preached a series on Countering the Cults & gave an address on  Seventh Day Adventism - Grace or Guilt. Despite the series title, he seemed to hold off calling them a cult. He seemed to be exercising a bit of restraint and also mentioned that there could be true believers in the SDA Church.
> 
> The address focused on the Gospel and where the SDA's go wrong. However, my question is should we consider them as a cult and would you agree that there may be true believers in the SDA's?



The SDA to me would be in the same boat as the Church of Rome, as both would uphold certain aspects of real Christianity, both have saved in their ranks, but both of them hold with and teach another Gospel message.

the SDA hold that one must partake of Saturday Sabbath, as to hold to Sunday is taking mark of the beast, and also elevate their false prophetess Ellen White to be on par with those of the Bible, and that she had revelation to the church. They also see themselves as being the true remnant church of end times. Finally, their Investigative judgment means that we cannot be sure of salvation, for need to have God judged to how closely we observed SDA Sabbath and teachings to merit keeping saved,
the teachings of their church are not at times held by their lay members, just as many Catholics do not agree or are even aware of official Rome doctrines, same way with SDA.


----------



## timfost (Jun 5, 2017)

We have two foster daughters who previously lived with friends of ours who are SDA. They said they were happy the children could live with us because they wanted the children to continue learning about Jesus. I have spoken with this friend about what I believe and challenged him in his beliefs. Even though we disagreed, I think in some ways it made them feel more comfortable with us since they knew we took the Bible seriously. I don't think cultists would share this sentiment.

However, like others have said above, there seem to be different levels of SDA members and some would seem to be closer to "cult" status.

I have hope for many in the SDA church in that they have a fairly Orthodox view of the Trinity, unlike Mormons or JWs.


----------



## Dachaser (Jun 5, 2017)

timfost said:


> We have two foster daughters who previously lived with friends of ours who are SDA. They said they were happy the children could live with us because they wanted the children to continue learning about Jesus. I have spoken with this friend about what I believe and challenged him in his beliefs. Even though we disagreed, I think in some ways it made them feel more comfortable with us since they knew we took the Bible seriously. I don't think cultists would share this sentiment.
> 
> However, like others have said above, there seem to be different levels of SDA members and some would seem to be closer to "cult" status.
> 
> I have hope for many in the SDA church in that they have a fairly Orthodox view of the Trinity, unlike Mormons or JWs.


True, but they really have bad theology on regards to salvation proper...


----------



## timfost (Jun 5, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> True, but they really have bad theology on regards to salvation proper...



Yes, they have Arminian soteriology. They also believe in soul sleep, annihilation, and other weirdly unique views, like the heavenly sanctuary, not to mention Saturday Sabbath.


----------



## Jack K (Jun 5, 2017)

We had our children in an Adventist school through eighth grade, as it was the only Christian-school option in town. So as you can imagine, we kept a pretty close eye on things. I agree with those who say there's a broad range within the denomination.

The school we were in was your basic evangelical environment. There were a few times when some particularly Adventist views came up, but the school wasn't pushy about them and really tried to be an all-purpose evangelical place. They often had me speak at chapel, no problem. A few of the teachers were more Adventist-minded than others, but all were respectful of the wider church and wanted to be seen as evangelicals. Overall, we did fine there. Our kids were blessed to have that school and those teachers. I'm pretty sure it beat the public school options. I would not call it cult-like, just a bit odd here and there.

But hard-core Adventists came around now and then. A hard-core Adventist family might move to town and enroll their kids in that school, and then make a stink when they found out all the Adventist doctrines were not taught. I learned that there are strong internal battles between the traditional Adventists and more moderate ones. I agree that despite several troubling doctrines, we should exercise restraint in labelling the whole SDA a cult, and should expect that there are true believers within the denomination.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 2


----------



## Dachaser (Jun 5, 2017)

Jack K said:


> We had our children in an Adventist school through eighth grade, as it was the only Christian-school option in town. So as you can imagine, we kept a pretty close eye on things. I agree with those who say there's a broad range within the denomination.
> 
> The school we were in was your basic evangelical environment. There were a few times when some particularly Adventist views came up, but the school wasn't pushy about them and really tried to be an all-purpose evangelical place. They often had me speak at chapel, no problem. A few of the teachers were more Adventist-minded than others, but all were respectful of the wider church and wanted to be seen as evangelicals. Overall, we did fine there. Our kids were blessed to have that school and those teachers. I'm pretty sure it beat the public school options. I would not call it cult-like, just a bit odd here and there.
> 
> ...


----------



## jwithnell (Jun 5, 2017)

This group definitely has evangelical offshoots. Legalistic, yes, but I've known folks who home-schooled specifically to rear their children in Christ.


----------



## MW (Jun 5, 2017)

Anecdotal stories of personal experience will not answer the question within the reformed framework of the doctrine of the church and its marks. We cannot judge a church by individual people. For all we know the people might be the exception rather than the rule, and they might be the exception because they have been influenced by others. What does the "church" teach? Seventh day adventist teaching is characterised by the fundamental marks of a cult.

1. Teaching a different way of salvation.
2. Claiming to be the one true church.
3. Extra-biblical revelation.
4. Devotion to the doctrines of an individual.
5. Secret Gnosis.

Granted, the case with SDAs is unique among the cults in that they have had more evangelical exposure, but at its core it manifests all the traits of a cult.

Reactions: Like 4 | Informative 3


----------



## Wayne (Jun 6, 2017)

Present Truth Magazine [http://www.presenttruthmag.com] is focused on an SDA audience and has been around some 40 years or more. It would be somewhat representative of the more evangelical wing.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Dachaser (Jun 6, 2017)

MW said:


> Anecdotal stories of personal experience will not answer the question within the reformed framework of the doctrine of the church and its marks. We cannot judge a church by individual people. For all we know the people might be the exception rather than the rule, and they might be the exception because they have been influenced by others. What does the "church" teach? Seventh day adventist teaching is characterised by the fundamental marks of a cult.
> 
> 1. Teaching a different way of salvation.
> 2. Claiming to be the one true church.
> ...


They would be right about the trinity, but their other main doctrines held would go against the scriptures, and how they view salvation and the role of Ellen White is about same as the JW/Mormons would see it, so qualifies as a Cult...


----------



## jwithnell (Jun 6, 2017)

This is an odd duck. It appears entire congregations are evangelical. I wonder if their convictions on a Saturday sabbath keep them in the fold?


----------



## Dachaser (Jun 6, 2017)

jwithnell said:


> This is an odd duck. It appears entire congregations are evangelical. I wonder if their convictions on a Saturday sabbath keep them in the fold?


They had a small uprising in their ranks few decades ago, as think their Sda theologian Desmond Ford tried to get them to stop seeing Ellen White as a modern prophetess, and to try to have More Gospel of saved by grace alone, through faith alone, but he then ended up splitting off a smaller group...

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


----------



## MW (Jun 6, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> They would be right about the trinity, but their other main doctrines held would go against the scriptures, and how they view salvation and the role of Ellen White is about same as the JW/Mormons would see it, so qualifies as a Cult...



They are not "quite" right about the Trinity. While modern statements of belief express the doctrine of the Trinity, (1) even these statements are questionably worded; (2) it was not a part of their identity at their founding, and anti-trinitarianism has been a part of their history; (3) it continues to be a divisive issue, and (4) they hold to "no creed but Christ," which means this doctrinal statement does not function as a proper confession of the church's belief in the traditional sense.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


----------



## Dachaser (Jun 7, 2017)

MW said:


> They are not "quite" right about the Trinity. While modern statements of belief express the doctrine of the Trinity, (1) even these statements are questionably worded; (2) it was not a part of their identity at their founding, and anti-trinitarianism has been a part of their history; (3) it continues to be a divisive issue, and (4) they hold to "no creed but Christ," which means this doctrinal statement does not function as a proper confession of the church's belief in the traditional sense.



Know that there were some problems with it appearing that at times they seem to hold to Jesus being Michael...
They would see Him as Michael, but as the One who was Captain of the Army pf the Lord....


----------



## Rich Koster (Jun 7, 2017)

My contact with a co-worker named Eric gave me the impression that they are modern day Judaizers, except they emphasized being overall law keepers (OT dietary & civil, and American laws, such as speed limits etc...) not circumcision. He didn't believe you are saved by this, but since you are saved you must obey their list.


----------



## earl40 (Jun 8, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> Know that there were some problems with it appearing that at times they seem to hold to Jesus being Michael...
> They would see Him as Michael, but as the One who was Captain of the Army pf the Lord....



Even the issue on Michael can be debated among fellow Presbyterians.

The biggest problem with the SDA is a misunderstanding of the person of Jesus. Ask them where, and if Jesus was conscious, between the cross and the Resurrection. You will get various answers because of the belief in soul sleep. In other words, they officially remove the humanity of Jesus during the time of His death and Resurrection.


----------



## Dachaser (Jun 8, 2017)

earl40 said:


> Even the issue on Michael can be debated among fellow Presbyterians.
> 
> The biggest problem with the SDA is a misunderstanding of the person of Jesus. Ask them where, and if Jesus was conscious, between the cross and the Resurrection. You will get various answers because of the belief in soul sleep. In other words, they officially remove the humanity of Jesus during the time of His death and Resurrection.


That begs the question of hos God can have soul sleep.....
I also have not heard among my Baptists questions regarding connecting Jesus and Michael, what are some of those that you are referring to among Presbyterians?


----------



## Dachaser (Jun 8, 2017)

Rich Koster said:


> My contact with a co-worker named Eric gave me the impression that they are modern day Judaizers, except they emphasized being overall law keepers (OT dietary & civil, and American laws, such as speed limits etc...) not circumcision. He didn't believe you are saved by this, but since you are saved you must obey their list.


they would see keeping the Sabbath as a requirement to be really saved...


----------



## yeutter (Jun 9, 2017)

The question of the heterodoxy of Seventh Day Adventists can be resolved by asking them if they agree with the relevant propositional statements concerning the incarnation of our Lord set forth in the Athanasian creed. They usually end up telling you; that you are asking the wrong questions.

A helpful book, which most Seventh Day Adventists would regard as authoritatively setting forth their faith, is P. Gerard Damsteegt's work, *Foundations of the Seventh-day Adventist Message and Mission* published by Eerdmans in 1977. His carefully nuanced statements sound orthodox, but fall short of the mark


----------



## Dachaser (Jun 9, 2017)

yeutter said:


> The question of the heterodoxy of Seventh Day Adventists can be resolved by asking them if they agree with the relevant propositional statements concerning the incarnation of our Lord set forth in the Athanasian creed. They usually end up telling you; that you are asking the wrong questions.
> 
> A helpful book, which most Seventh Day Adventists would regard as authoritatively setting forth their faith, is P. Gerard Damsteegt's work, *Foundations of the Seventh-day Adventist Message and Mission* published by Eerdmans in 1977. His carefully nuanced statements sound orthodox, but fall short of the mark


They once had a book that gave forth their entire theology, but was from 1957, so doubt still in print. so that book probably replaced it...


----------



## Rich Koster (Jun 9, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> they would see keeping the Sabbath as a requirement to be really saved...


We debated the proper day, but it was fruitless. I don't think he saw it as a requirement to be saved, but a "must" effect of one who was. As already stated, there are quite a few variations within the SDA camp.


----------



## Dachaser (Jun 9, 2017)

Rich Koster said:


> We debated the proper day, but it was fruitless. I don't think he saw it as a requirement to be saved, but a "must" effect of one who was. As already stated, there are quite a few variations within the SDA camp.


The Sda views keeping the Sabbath as showing that one is really saved, so would be the same as certain groups that advocate one must be baptized in one way, or speak in tongues to show being really saved.


----------



## yeutter (Jun 9, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> They once had a book that gave forth their entire theology, but was from 1957, so doubt still in print. so that book probably replaced it...


Dr. P. Gerard Damsteegt has his PhD from Free University Amsterdam. He is one of the SDA's leading theologians. He led the successful fight against women's ordination in that cult. His book does not have official status, but seems to be universally highly regarded.
I have been interested in the SDA since the early 1980s. The Army Reserve Medical unit I served in had many SDA men who had joined to avoid the draft. The reformed mission that I was a member of at the time, rented the East Lansing SDA church building for our worship services. That SDA congregation had many followers of Desmond Ford in their midst. Many of the men there read Present Truth and later Verdict magazine. They were very disappointed when he was defrocked.


----------



## Dachaser (Jun 9, 2017)

The SDA uses biblical terms, but grant new meanings to them, and they really deny saved by grace alone faith alone, as required to keep Sabbath, diets, and especially teachings of Ellen White in order to be saved.


----------



## yeutter (Jun 9, 2017)

I have encountered SDAs on the mission field. They are particularly dangerous in Nepal where the civil day of rest is Saturday. I have encouraged my friends, who are Nepali pastors, to have the following attitude toward Seventh Day Adventism.

The SDA claim to be the one true church. To assert this claim the SDA promulgate a false Church history. The SDA do not wholeheartedly affirm the historic western Church teachings on the doctrine of the Trinity and the Incarnation of our Lord. The SDA historically effectively denied original sin. Thus the SDA teach a different way of salvation. They do all of this based on a Secret Gnosis. This secret gnosis is found in the writings of Mrs. White and have come to constitute a set of Extra Biblical Revelations.

SDA baptism should not be regarded as valid. They are not schismatics on the question of the Lord's Day. They are heretics.


----------



## Dachaser (Jun 9, 2017)

yeutter said:


> I have encountered SDAs on the mission field. They are particularly dangerous in Nepal where the civil day of rest is Saturday. I have encouraged my friends, who are Nepali pastors, to have the following attitude toward Seventh Day Adventism.
> 
> The SDA claim to be the one true church. To assert this claim the SDA promulgate a false Church history. The SDA do not wholeheartedly affirm the historic western Church teachings on the doctrine of the Trinity and the Incarnation of our Lord. The SDA historically effectively denied original sin. Thus the SDA teach a different way of salvation. They do all of this based on a Secret Gnosis. This secret gnosis is found in the writings of Mrs. White and have come to constitute a set of Extra Biblical Revelations.
> 
> SDA baptism should not be regarded as valid. They are not schismatics on the question of the Lord's Day. They are heretics.


Agreed, as their views on the Sabbath and especially Ellen White place them outside orthodoxy....


----------

