# Another Gospel?



## no1special18 (Jan 10, 2005)

How far do you guys think that a church can depart from the messages of sovereign grace before they are preaching another gospel then what Paul preached?

2Cr 11:4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear {this} beautifully. 

My school, Grand Canyon University, is making chapel a requirement. The only problem is that the theology is horrible. Should I still go, or should I not go and suffer the consequences?


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## turmeric (Jan 10, 2005)

What are they teaching? Arminianism, Finneyism, Wesleyan, what?
Also, what hill are you willing to die on here? If they're teaching damnable heresy that's one thing, if they're a little mixed up, maybe you should bear with it.
Can you get involved with chapel and contribute a Reformed perspective?


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## Larry Hughes (Jan 11, 2005)

Another Gospel?


That´s a good question to ponder so that we 1) Do stand when we should and 2) Exercise gentle patience when we should. I´m not saying it is easy every time but good to ponder. A Christian friend and I have spent many a day pondering this.

Paul in Galatians curses the false teachers for their false Gospel which is not Gospel at all. Or to put a sharper edge on it for us, he cursed the false teachers for their false Good News which was no Good News at all. BUT on the other hand he exercised patience with Peter´s actions which in essence were doing the same thing, denying the Gospel, yet Paul corrected him for the actions and did not curse Peter.

So, there we see the principle of great care. I know when I first began to study Sovereign Grace and grasp it (by sovereign grace) that I began to struggle with the sin of seeing false teachers whenever I got a whiff of man centered teaching (which today is pretty pervasive). It is not wrong to discern or detect it, but care should be exercised in any action we may take. Sometimes teach and exhort with great patience when opportunities arise is the best action. And I still struggle at times, so it is a sinful weakness of pride within me. But I must not forget that I too was and am being taught with great patience. Man centered religion in all its forms and titles is nothing less than our falleness.

And taking our lead from that: Another humbling fact that I think might help apply this is to remember always that due to our dethroned yet warring resident flesh we ALL (simul Justus et peccator) still possess a bit of Arminian/Pelagian/name your poison man center thought in our selves. Those of us on the sovereign grace side in theory and theology and doctrine tend to think that because we can "œspell it out" rather logically and thoughtfully that we no longer succumb to the man centered way of salvation. Yet, we all, and I hope I´m not being presumptuous here, have those moments when we "˜do a thing´ to in essence attempt to work our way to heaven. Sometimes it may be as subtle as correcting a doctrine that we before believed falsely. We don´t straightforwardly think or say to ourselves, "œI´m doing this to save myself", because as good Calvinist we would immediately intellectually deny this. Yet, and only each individual can discern this within themselves (again I don´t mean to presume upon individuals here, just sharing my own inward battle a bit), we can detect a "˜whiff´ within that we just did "˜a thing´ to earn God´s favor. E.g., Do you ever find yourself repenting of your repenting in prayer because you see that even your repentance is tainted? Luther rightly and very poignantly recognized that sometimes doing nothing was actually an exercise of faith. I know, I know that sounds a bit odd to our American Nike/John Wayne ears.

So, care should be taken. Teachers stand higher in accountability and correction but still must be allowed some graciousness (e.g. Peter). I love Peter because he is a great source of encouragement to me because he too suffered the "˜foot and mouth´ disease.

Now an institution like the RCC church has and still retains its public rejection of the Gospel, actually Rome cursed it numerous times. However, individual Catholics stuck in Rome may certainly affirm the true Gospel.

Other examples: John Wesley though confused greatly about the Gospel from certain angles seemed to understand it strongly at other times (e.g., a number of his hymns). I personally certainly wouldn´t affirm his theology nor recommend it, but he was a great Christian. Perhaps, in my humble opinion, Wesley´s inward struggles were a bit too public.

C.G. Finney on the other hand is a little tougher since he actually called legal imputation a legal fiction. Another way to say that is that he called the Gospel (the true Gospel, the work of Christ) legal fiction. I wouldn´t recommend Finney to anyone other than to examine by stark contrast to see what is NOT true. Finney seemed to preach a false Gospel because unlike Wesley he seemed to never affirm the Good News of Christ´s work.

The hill to die on is Justification by faith alone in the finished final and singular work of Christ alone. However one formulates that my sin was accounted to Christ and Christ´s righteousness accounted to me "“ the righteous for the unrighteous "“ that is the hill to die on. Luther was right about what the church stands or falls upon.

On that hill in the heat of battle Presbyterian, Baptist, Lutherans, Methodist and others can and should stand locked arm in arm together. 

And that is a great encouragement today. We can see correctly the poor condition of the church on earth in totality and within the various denominations, yet true biblical faith (label it reformed or confessional Lutheran) is growing. I´m simply amazed at the number of reformed or if your prefer reforming Christians growing out there. I work in a large and for the most part fairly well educated atmosphere, and I know of at least four reformed Christians not counting myself in various positions. It´s very rare in a large population today to run into another Christian that is not just a "˜cultural Christian´, but running into another reformed brother/sister, well that´s as rare as hen´s teeth today.

Blessings,

Larry


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## Ivan (Jan 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by no1special18
> 
> The only problem is that the theology is horrible. _


_

James,

We need more information about this._


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## no1special18 (Jan 11, 2005)

*More Info*

Perhaps I was a little quick to call his theology horrible. Also, maybe I was not very gracious in my speech, and for this I apologize. However, here is a basic outline of the problems I had with his teachings.

Mr. Hughes, thank you so much for your remarks. You did give me a lot to think about. Ivan and turmeric, thank you for the clarifying questions.

*Outline of the problems I had with his teaching. *

1.) In his opening prayer he prayed that someone might push the belief button. (I admit I was biased right off the bat after that prayer).

2.) He reported that a person asked him "how all this great stuff was happening?" His response (from his own mouth) was this "I do not know." Nothing about God being gracious to his ministry (or about God at all)

3.) The only credit that was ever attributed to God for anything was in the form of "God spoke to me."
-which might not be such a bad thing, because he did obey what he thought God was telling him to do, however, there was something there that clashed in me for some reason.

4.) In speaking about eleven gang members coming to know Christ (which is an incredible thing, and I rejoiced when I heard it) He did not attribute this to God, but rather that he prayed harder then he had ever prayed before.
-Which gives credit to God because God is the one who hears prayers, but if you were there it seemed like that the credit was not going to God.

5.) He made a big emphasis on "numbers." 
-How big his church had grown.
-How many people were getting saved.

6.) He did not use scripture to support his "talk." Although, he did keep quoting: 
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding. 
but he never really made the connection, except that God kept telling him to do stuff and he did it.

7.) His emphasis was on living for other people, as opposed to living for God, and as a result, living for others. 

*His Doctrine:*

I really think that he would have been opposed to saying that he held any kind of doctrine, but it seemed a little Pentecostal in nature, and his father is the pastor for one of the bigger "Pentecostal type" churches here in Arizona.


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## Larry Hughes (Jan 11, 2005)

no1special18,

I see what you mean. I eventually had to leave a church like that - that sounded erely familiar. I struggled tremendously & drove my wife crazy.

A number of us reforming types ended up leaving over a period of two years.

RC once said that you & your families souls are most valuable things you possess, so go to were they will be fed.

Of course providentially that may be impossible. Maybe bring a good book with good theology to read during the times he's not preaching the word but rather speech making?

Larry


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## Ex Nihilo (Jan 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Larry Hughes_
> Of course providentially that may be impossible. Maybe bring a good book with good theology to read during the times he's not preaching the word but rather speech making?



That's what I do during chapel at my school. :bigsmile:


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## Larry Hughes (Jan 11, 2005)

> That's what I do during chapel at my school



My wife, and she doesn't mind me sharing this, use to poke me when I do that. I'd just look at her and say, "Weeeell!"


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## jacobiloved (Jan 24, 2005)

> _Originally posted by no1special18_
> How far do you guys think that a church can depart from the messages of sovereign grace before they are preaching another gospel then what Paul preached?
> 
> 2Cr 11:4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear {this} beautifully.
> ...



Good question , and I find myself asking it very often ....


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