# Man-centered worship songs



## danmpem

I've been wanting to post this for a while.

Throughout various threads on the PB, there have been references to the fact that lots of contemporary "Christian" songs are man-centered and self-glorifying. As someone who attends a church that sings almost exclusively contemporary music, this thought has been very interesting to me. While I've definitely heard them on the radio quite a bit for years now, I'm wondering if anyone had any particular examples that might be found in churches today.

It wasn't until last week when I heard this song on the radio (see below) that I felt compelled to post this on PB. When I first heard it, I thought it was just a post-modern way of worshipping God...until I realized that the very person being given praise in the song wasn't God - it was man.

[video=youtube;IkUMQHSzPEU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkUMQHSzPEU[/video]

Here are the lyrics:

Crazy Beautiful by Chasen

Everybody’s been there everyone’s the same
but mostly we don’t care isn’t that a shame
We bring us down face after face
the inside is beautiful but the outside we want to change.
We want to change.
Whoa you’re oh so beautiful, you don’t need anyone’s approval
You’ve got to believe in your self you know you are
You’re crazy beautiful
Well every new year you say your gonna change
From the way you live to how much you weigh,
we don’t want to change.
Whoa you’re oh so beautiful, you don’t need anyone’s approval
You’ve got to believe in your self you know you are
You’re crazy beautiful
Take a look it’s all around you
See the world from different views
The way you shine from the inside
I know with out a doubt
It’s more than what you’ll be
In the world’s eyes.
Whoa you’re oh so beautiful, you don’t need anyone’s a approval
You’ve got to believe in your self you know you are


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## Simply_Nikki

An example of a song I would not sing if it were presented as praise/worship in a church of which I was in attendance. 

I have had a few examples of this happening in my family's church (which is arminian) I love them to death.. I do believe they are genuine christians, but I remember one song which had a lyric "Why won't you let HIM give you new life". I was like.. umm... we *let* God give us something? I don't think so... I stood up but did not join in singing the song. 

Another example was of a song with a lyric that said "YOU died to save humanity". I was like.. hmm.. well in a categorical sense Christ died for human beings.. yes.. you could say that. But, I know that was not the intent of this particular song, the lyric was proclaiming the classic "Christ died for every single human in the world", which of course it not true.. Therefore I could not sing that song either.


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## KMK

Not all music that has Christian themes is necessarily 'worship' music. That does not necessarily make it bad music.

U2 has some good songs with arguably Christian themes, but they are not 'worship' per se. No one would sing "Pride (In the Name of Love)" in a church service would they?


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## etexas

YWAM has a lot of songs like that, I remember part of one that went, "He does all things well, just look at OUR lives." Hmmmm...


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## blhowes

Does man-centered music by default mean its not suitable for a worship service? I can't think of an example off hand, but aren't there Psalms that talk about David's blessings received from God. Man-centered, but God glorifying.


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## Gage Browning

*U2 is used more than you think*



KMK said:


> Not all music that has Christian themes is necessarily 'worship' music. That does not necessarily make it bad music.
> 
> U2 has some good songs with arguably Christian themes, but they are not 'worship' per se. No one would sing "Pride (In the Name of Love)" in a church service would they?



KMK- Pride in the name of Love is used and has been used...one very large seeker church in my area has used it..it was justified (by them) by pointing out that the song refers to Christ..."one man come he to justify" "one man betrayed w/ a kiss".. and I've seen Sunday blooday Sunday" used and "Elevation" and "40" a Psalm as well.
Not endorsing...but U2 is used more than you think.


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## blhowes

joshua said:


> blhowes said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does man-centered music by default mean its not suitable for a worship service? I can't think of an example off hand, but aren't there Psalms that talk about David's blessings received from God. Man-centered, but God glorifying.
> 
> 
> 
> But ultimately, wouldn't the centeredness be on God, since He gives blessings to a sinner like David?
Click to expand...

Yes. And that's what I'm wondering about hymns or other songs that follow that pattern in the Psalms. They talk about blessings from God, to some extent seem to be man-centered, but are God-centered in that the blessing are from God.


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## Pergamum

Music out of church can be a lot more "free" than inside the church. I love techno for running, but would never dare to play it in church,.. music is to be used for a purpose and for running techno is awesome ...but music needs to fit its purpose. It is not that much of this music is "bad" - it is just bad for church.


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## puritan lad

What about the Ray Boltz Classic "Heaven is counting on you", played in alot of churches during its heyday? Talk about pressure


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## Gage Browning

puritan lad said:


> What about the Ray Boltz Classic "Heaven is counting on you", played in alot of churches during its heyday? Talk about pressure



Ray Boltz is inappropriate in any setting.


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## Simply_Nikki

I'm sorry when you said techno my first response was > 



Pergamum said:


> Music out of church can be a lot more "free" than inside the church. I love techno for running, but would never dare to play it in church,.. music is to be used for a purpose and for running techno is awesome ...but music needs to fit its purpose. It is not that much of this music is "bad" - it is just bad for church.


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## KMK

joshua said:


> I agree, which was why I was asking if that song was actually being implemented into a service of the Church.
> 
> As far as the lyrics here in this song:
> 
> ... you don’t need anyone’s approval
> 
> I like Charlie Daniels' song better (althought I obviously wouldn't agree with some of his sentiments found therein) in _Long Haired Country Boy_.



What about "The Devil Went Down to Georgia"? That has Christian themes, right? And what about "Jesus Is Just Alright" by the Doobie Brothers! Are there churches that are using these gems?


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## Gage Browning

KMK said:


> joshua said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, which was why I was asking if that song was actually being implemented into a service of the Church.
> 
> As far as the lyrics here in this song:
> 
> ... you don’t need anyone’s approval
> 
> I like Charlie Daniels' song better (althought I obviously wouldn't agree with some of his sentiments found therein) in _Long Haired Country Boy_.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What about "The Devil Went Down to Georgia"? That has Christian themes, right? And what about "Jesus Is Just Alright" by the Doobie Brothers! Are there churches that are using these gems?
Click to expand...


No- I don't think the Charlie Daniels Band has been used, although I have seen a "Cool and the Gang" song used - "There's a party going on right here- Celebration" cmon sing it w/ me. No they don't use the Charlie Daniels Band I think because they don't have any constituents who like him. The line that they draw is one of appealing to the constituency. Purely pragmatic.


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## ChristopherPaul

I played in the "worship" band at the seeker church I attended prior to discovering the Reformation. We played a lot of U2, Bob Dylan, Beatles, Five for Fighting, Creed, Jars of Clay, Pearl Jam, The Who, Pink Floyd... just to name a few.

The man worship was not as evident as the centrality of the _very act_ of worship. Many of the choruses focus on "look what I am doing to worship God" type themes. It is very common to hear lyrics such as , "I lift up my hands," "Here I come to worship," "I bow down," "I will sing...," "I will praise," "I will dance," etc, etc.


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## KMK

ChristopherPaul said:


> The man worship was not as evident as the centrality of the _very act_ of worship. Many of the choruses focus on "look what I am doing to worship God" type themes. It is very common to hear lyrics such as , "I lift up my hands," "Here I come to worship," "I bow down," "I will sing...," "I will praise," "I will dance," etc, etc.



But this is true of the Psalms as well:



> Psalm 5 Give ear to my words, O LORD, consider *my* meditation. Hearken unto the voice of *my* cry, my King, and my God: for unto thee *will I *pray. *My* voice shalt thou hear in the morning, O LORD; in the morning *will I* direct [my prayer] unto thee, and will look up. For thou [art] not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man. *But as for me, I wil*l come [into] thy house in the multitude of thy mercy: [and] in thy fear *will I *worship toward thy holy temple. Lead *me*, O LORD, in thy righteousness because of *mine* enemies; make thy way straight before *my* face. For [there is] no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part [is] very wickedness; their throat [is] an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue. Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; for they have rebelled against thee. But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee. For thou, LORD, wilt bless the righteous; with favour wilt thou compass him as [with] a shield.



Singing about how we feel about Christ, or what we will do for Christ, or what we would ask Him to do for us is perfectly acceptable worship.


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## JBaldwin

ChristopherPaul said:


> The man worship was not as evident as the centrality of the _very act_ of worship. Many of the choruses focus on "look what I am doing to worship God" type themes. It is very common to hear lyrics such as , "I lift up my hands," "Here I come to worship," "I bow down," "I will sing...," "I will praise," "I will dance," etc, etc.



While I am not crazy about most of these titles "I will sing," "I will praise". I find those exact words in the Psalms. "I will praise you with my whole heart" is the first one that comes to mind. There is some of that in the Psalms, and a few of the worship songs that have these words are taken directly from the Psalms. 

Having said, that I agree with you when it comes to some of what shows up in church. Our congregation and pastor enjoy contemporary music, and so we are on a constant search to find Psalms and hymns with solid theological texts to sing. They are out there, but sometimes it's like looking for a needle in a haystack.


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## panta dokimazete

I know what you mean - we keep working to raise the bar at our church - I am starting tonight to begin every practice with a reading from the Psalms to set everybody's goal.


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## JBaldwin

panta dokimazete said:


> I know what you mean - we keep working to raise the bar at our church - I am starting tonight to begin every practice with a reading from the Psalms to set everybody's goal.



That's great! We are doing the same thing--trying to sing at least one Psalm every week. Sometimes we manage to sneak in two or three!


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## danmpem

ChristopherPaul said:


> Many of the choruses focus on "look what I am doing to worship God" type themes. It is very common to hear lyrics such as , "I lift up my hands," "Here I come to worship," "I bow down," "I will sing...," "I will praise," "I will dance," etc, etc.



 This is why I ask these kinds of questions.


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## Simply_Nikki

aww.. i want to give that little popcorn eating guy a hug 



danmpem said:


> ChristopherPaul said:
> 
> 
> 
> Many of the choruses focus on "look what I am doing to worship God" type themes. It is very common to hear lyrics such as , "I lift up my hands," "Here I come to worship," "I bow down," "I will sing...," "I will praise," "I will dance," etc, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is why I ask these kinds of questions.
Click to expand...


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## blhowes

panta dokimazete said:


> I know what you mean - we keep working to raise the bar at our church - I am starting tonight to begin every practice with a reading from the Psalms to set everybody's goal.


When I first read this I thought, "Well, I know many reformed folks have no problem with drinking, so a bar at church - why not?". Then, I read the rest...Never mind...


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## Grymir

ChristopherPaul said:


> The man worship was not as evident as the centrality of the _very act_ of worship. Many of the choruses focus on "look what I am doing to worship God" type themes. It is very common to hear lyrics such as , "I lift up my hands," "Here I come to worship," "I bow down," "I will sing...," "I will praise," "I will dance," etc, etc.



I want to preface this post by saying that the music one listens to outside of church is NOT what I am talking about!! I do fall into the category that believes these man centered praise songs should not be used in worship services.

For a great explanation, use Todd Wilkens Sermon Analysis for songs. It should not be limited to just the sermon.

Quote - 

1. How often is Jesus mention? 
2. If Jesus is mentioned, is He the subject of the verbs? 
3. What are those verbs?

First, if Jesus is not mentioned, then you know that this is not a Christ centered sermon and not a Christian sermon. Jesus can be mentioned in his various names and titles. Just because Christ is mentioned, doesn’t make the sermon a Christian sermon, especially if the Gospel is not present nor proclaimed.

Second, when Jesus is mentioned, is he the subject of the verbs? In every sentence, there is a subject and a verb. If Jesus isn’t the subject, then who is? If Jesus isn’t the subject of the verbs, then this cannot be a Christ centered sermon. When someone other than Christ is the subject of the sentence, then Christ cannot be the focus of the sermon. 

Next, look at the verbs associated with Jesus in the sermon. Are the verbs associated with Jesus passive or active? Is Jesus doing the action or is he being acted upon? If Jesus isn’t the active player in the verbs, then who is? If the pastor is placing the individual as the active player, then this sermon is not a Gospel sermon. For example, “Jesus is waiting for you to give your life to him” places Jesus as the passive player and the individual as the active player. If the pastor says “Jesus has saved you and gives you life” he is placing Jesus as the active player and you as the passive player. This is very important since the Gospel is not about what we do for Christ, but what Christ has already done for us. 

At the end of the sermon, ask yourself these to questions: “What is our problem that the pastor has identified in their sermon?” and “What is the solution for our problem?” Is the problem that we are sinful by nature or that we make mistakes? How the pastor defines our problem is critical to how Christ is part of the solution. His definition of the problem also impacts the roll of Christ in the solution. If the problem is anything less than man’s sinful nature and being dead to God, then the problem the pastor defines isn’t the same problem that the bible defines are our problem. 

What is the solution that the pastor provides? If the solution is to “Give your heart to Jesus” or “Change your attitude” places the focus on the individual as the source of the solution. This is not a Christ centered sermon but a human centered sermon. The Biblical solution is always what Christ has done for you on the cross.

End quote -

Notice the second paragraph. Who is the subject of the verbs. This is where the praise stuff fails. And why I do call them man-centered worship. They glorify ourselves and not God. The quote from ChristopherPaul lists classic examples of man centered song...Here I am to worship? (I won't even comment on us saying 'I am' about ourselves)....Lord, I lift thy name on high?? It's the man determines the truth of the enlightenment all over again. 

Here's some lines I've written down that our church has sung:

-I know it's true because I found Gold,

-All who dwell in dark and sin, my hand will save,

-I will go, if you lead me till their hearts are satisfied,

-We place you at the highest place above all else, right now where we stand, we place you...

-Kant is a secular-humanist Pelagian (Just checking!!)

In the above, what is being said?? I won't even talk about the ones that say we desire God, we want to turn to God, or even we want to obey God. Knowing the condition of each of our hearts, is this appropriate? When we hear the law of God, we are supposed to be convicted of our sin and turn to Jesus. Not think that we can do it. (Anybody remember the rich young ruler?)

Remember, when you change the liturgy, you change the theology. Songs are a part of the liturgy.

Now a personal note. I don't like these songs at all. I don't like guitars and drums in church services, bringing the world into the church. (I save that for outside of Church. Just listen to some Judas Priest at maximum volume for effect.) But this is my preference. When I joined my church, they were a pipe organ, hymn singing church focused on God. Then the projector screen came down, guitars and drums (could they at least keep a beat together, or even tune their instruments), and we get man centered worship services. I tell the people that want this stuff to go up the road to Calvary Chapel. They do a much better job. Let a church exceed in the style they want. If you want Black Gospel, goto a Black Gospel Church; praise songs, goto Calvary; pipe organ and hymns, goto a Presbyterian (PCUSA) church.

Anyway, I'm sure I'll get it from both ends for this post. I can hear the RPW and the Contemporary's getting together. But feel free to rant and rave against what I have spoken. I have a backbone and have done alot of research into the worship wars. As an ex-pagan, metallica reject kind of dude, I want church to be different than the world, not a part of it.


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## JBaldwin

The phrase "I will" shows up in the Psalms 138 times. At least 3/4 of these have to do with I will praise or I will tell or I will show, etc. 

Here are some of the examples:

I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will praise you: Psalm 22:22

And now my head shall be lifted up above my enemies all around me, and I will offer in his tent sacrifices with shouts of joy; I will sing and make melody to the Lord. Psalm 27:6

I will extol you, O Lord, for you have drawn me up and have not let my foes rejoice over me. Psalm 30:1


I will bless the Lord at all times; his praise shall continually be in my mouth. Psalm 34:1

Then I will go to the altar of God, to God my exceeding joy, and I will praise you with the lyre, O God, my God Psalm 43:4

But I will sing of your strength; I will sing aloud of your steadfast love in the morning. For you have been to me a fortress and a refuge in the day of my distress. Psalm 59:16

I will also praise you with the harp for your faithfulness, O my God; I will sing praises to you with the lyre, O Holy One of Israel Psalm 71:22

I will sing of the steadfast love of the Lord, forever; with my mouth I will make known your faithfulness to all generations Psalm 89:1


I will praise you with an upright heart, when I learn your righteous rules. Psalm 119:7

I will praise the Lord as long as I live; I will sing praises to my God while I have my being Psalm 146:2

Psalm 31:7 
I will rejoice and be glad in your steadfast love, because you have seen my affliction; you have known the distress of my soul,

While I am not an advocate of some of the songs you have mentioned, I am sick and tired of people downing songs just because they have the word "I" or "we" in them. The Psalms are full of this kind of language, and a lot of the "I" and "we" songs are taken word for word out of the Psalms.


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## panta dokimazete

blhowes said:


> panta dokimazete said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know what you mean - we keep working to raise the bar at our church - I am starting tonight to begin every practice with a reading from the Psalms to set everybody's goal.
> 
> 
> 
> When I first read this I thought, "Well, I know many reformed folks have no problem with drinking, so a bar at church - why not?". Then, I read the rest...Never mind...
Click to expand...


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## danmpem

Grymir said:


> ChristopherPaul said:
> 
> 
> 
> The man worship was not as evident as the centrality of the _very act_ of worship. Many of the choruses focus on "look what I am doing to worship God" type themes. It is very common to hear lyrics such as , "I lift up my hands," "Here I come to worship," "I bow down," "I will sing...," "I will praise," "I will dance," etc, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I want to preface this post by saying that the music one listens to outside of church is NOT what I am talking about!! I do fall into the category that believes these man centered praise songs should not be used in worship services.
> 
> For a great explanation, use Todd Wilkens Sermon Analysis for songs. It should not be limited to just the sermon.
> 
> Quote -
> 
> 1. How often is Jesus mention?
> 2. If Jesus is mentioned, is He the subject of the verbs?
> 3. What are those verbs?
> 
> First, if Jesus is not mentioned, then you know that this is not a Christ centered sermon and not a Christian sermon. Jesus can be mentioned in his various names and titles. Just because Christ is mentioned, doesn’t make the sermon a Christian sermon, especially if the Gospel is not present nor proclaimed.
> 
> Second, when Jesus is mentioned, is he the subject of the verbs? In every sentence, there is a subject and a verb. If Jesus isn’t the subject, then who is? If Jesus isn’t the subject of the verbs, then this cannot be a Christ centered sermon. When someone other than Christ is the subject of the sentence, then Christ cannot be the focus of the sermon.
> 
> Next, look at the verbs associated with Jesus in the sermon. Are the verbs associated with Jesus passive or active? Is Jesus doing the action or is he being acted upon? If Jesus isn’t the active player in the verbs, then who is? If the pastor is placing the individual as the active player, then this sermon is not a Gospel sermon. For example, “Jesus is waiting for you to give your life to him” places Jesus as the passive player and the individual as the active player. If the pastor says “Jesus has saved you and gives you life” he is placing Jesus as the active player and you as the passive player. This is very important since the Gospel is not about what we do for Christ, but what Christ has already done for us.
> 
> At the end of the sermon, ask yourself these to questions: “What is our problem that the pastor has identified in their sermon?” and “What is the solution for our problem?” Is the problem that we are sinful by nature or that we make mistakes? How the pastor defines our problem is critical to how Christ is part of the solution. His definition of the problem also impacts the roll of Christ in the solution. If the problem is anything less than man’s sinful nature and being dead to God, then the problem the pastor defines isn’t the same problem that the bible defines are our problem.
> 
> What is the solution that the pastor provides? If the solution is to “Give your heart to Jesus” or “Change your attitude” places the focus on the individual as the source of the solution. This is not a Christ centered sermon but a human centered sermon. The Biblical solution is always what Christ has done for you on the cross.
> 
> End quote -
> 
> Notice the second paragraph. Who is the subject of the verbs. This is where the praise stuff fails. And why I do call them man-centered worship. They glorify ourselves and not God. The quote from ChristopherPaul lists classic examples of man centered song...Here I am to worship? (I won't even comment on us saying 'I am' about ourselves)....Lord, I lift thy name on high?? It's the man determines the truth of the enlightenment all over again.
> 
> Here's some lines I've written down that our church has sung:
> 
> -I know it's true because I found Gold,
> 
> -All who dwell in dark and sin, my hand will save,
> 
> -I will go, if you lead me till their hearts are satisfied,
> 
> -We place you at the highest place above all else, right now where we stand, we place you...
> 
> -Kant is a secular-humanist Pelagian (Just checking!!)
> 
> In the above, what is being said?? I won't even talk about the ones that say we desire God, we want to turn to God, or even we want to obey God. Knowing the condition of each of our hearts, is this appropriate? When we hear the law of God, we are supposed to be convicted of our sin and turn to Jesus. Not think that we can do it. (Anybody remember the rich young ruler?)
> 
> Remember, when you change the liturgy, you change the theology. Songs are a part of the liturgy.
> 
> Now a personal note. I don't like these songs at all. I don't like guitars and drums in church services, bringing the world into the church. (I save that for outside of Church. Just listen to some Judas Priest at maximum volume for effect.) But this is my preference. When I joined my church, they were a pipe organ, hymn singing church focused on God. Then the projector screen came down, guitars and drums (could they at least keep a beat together, or even tune their instruments), and we get man centered worship services. I tell the people that want this stuff to go up the road to Calvary Chapel. They do a much better job. Let a church exceed in the style they want. If you want Black Gospel, goto a Black Gospel Church; praise songs, goto Calvary; pipe organ and hymns, goto a Presbyterian (PCUSA) church.
> 
> Anyway, I'm sure I'll get it from both ends for this post. I can hear the RPW and the Contemporary's getting together. But feel free to rant and rave against what I have spoken. I have a backbone and have done alot of research into the worship wars. As an ex-pagan, metallica reject kind of dude, I want church to be different than the world, not a part of it.
Click to expand...


When I started this thread, I knew it was only a matter of time before you posted something like that - and that is not criticism but a compliment. That was part of the reason: to get input from ones who are very critical of contemporary worship songs.


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## Kaalvenist

I'll just say what I'm sure certain others are thinking...

If you resolve to sing only from the Psalter, you don't have to trouble yourself about such questions. Any song not given by inspiration from God Himself is not God-centered enough.

And that concludes my plug for EP today...


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## BobVigneault

Actually, what I was thinking was that if you resolve to read only from the Bible, you don't have to trouble yourself about such questions. Any knowledge not given by inspiration from God Himself is not God-centered enough.

No, that EP *OBSERVATION* doesn't work for me.





Kaalvenist said:


> I'll just say what I'm sure certain others are thinking...
> 
> If you resolve to sing only from the Psalter, you don't have to trouble yourself about such questions. Any song not given by inspiration from God Himself is not God-centered enough.
> 
> And that concludes my plug for EP today...


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## Kaalvenist

BobVigneault said:


> Actually, what I was thinking was that if you resolve to read only from the Bible, you don't have to trouble yourself about such questions. Any knowledge not given by inspiration from God Himself is not God-centered enough.
> 
> No, that EP argument doesn't work for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kaalvenist said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll just say what I'm sure certain others are thinking...
> 
> If you resolve to sing only from the Psalter, you don't have to trouble yourself about such questions. Any song not given by inspiration from God Himself is not God-centered enough.
> 
> And that concludes my plug for EP today...
Click to expand...

It's not an argument, Bob; just an observation that, if (what EP-ers regard to be) Scriptural order and practice is followed, such questions are irrelevant.


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## JBaldwin

BobVigneault said:


> Actually, what I was thinking was that if you resolve to read only from the Bible, you don't have to trouble yourself about such questions. Any knowledge not given by inspiration from God Himself is not God-centered enough.
> 
> No, that EP argument doesn't work for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kaalvenist said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll just say what I'm sure certain others are thinking...
> 
> If you resolve to sing only from the Psalter, you don't have to trouble yourself about such questions. Any song not given by inspiration from God Himself is not God-centered enough.
> 
> And that concludes my plug for EP today...
Click to expand...


It doesn't work for me either, Bob. As I have tried to point out. Some of the CCM songs are nothing more than Psalms set to contemporary music. In the lyrics, they are more accurate than metered Psalms, because they are word for word. Too bad they're not in the Psalter.


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## BobVigneault

Sorry Sean, I edited my post.


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## Kaalvenist

JBaldwin said:


> BobVigneault said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, what I was thinking was that if you resolve to read only from the Bible, you don't have to trouble yourself about such questions. Any knowledge not given by inspiration from God Himself is not God-centered enough.
> 
> No, that EP argument doesn't work for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kaalvenist said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll just say what I'm sure certain others are thinking...
> 
> If you resolve to sing only from the Psalter, you don't have to trouble yourself about such questions. Any song not given by inspiration from God Himself is not God-centered enough.
> 
> And that concludes my plug for EP today...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It doesn't work for me either, Bob. As I have tried to point out. Some of the CCM songs are nothing more than Psalms set to contemporary music. In the lyrics, they are more accurate than metered Psalms, because they are word for word. Too bad they're not in the Psalter.
Click to expand...

Again, it's not an argument meant to "work" on anybody. And if a "CCM Psalm" is given out in a worship service, _a cappella,_ I will happily join my voice with yours in singing praise to our God. But the examples that were being given in this thread were not CCM Psalms.


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## BobVigneault

The thing that shocks me and amazes me about the Psalms is that they cover the scope and depth of human emotion much more thoroughly and unapologetically than most Christian writers today would ever dare.

I had a friend who lost a young son to a rare disease and he wrote a book about it. The first Christian publisher he took the text to rejected it because it wasn't victorious enough. 

The psalms never leave our eyes centered on man YET, not only are large portions man-centered, they are centered on man's emotional states - high, low and capricious. We see human emotion that causes the psalmist to dance, to start drumming on tamborines, to shout, to scream, to weep, to curse other men, to wish their infants would be killed, to disembowel humans, to laugh, to lose sleep, to feel that his bones are melting. 

There is always a 'BUT GOD' in the Psalms for we are being taught to ascribe to God His supreme worth for He alone is supremely worthy, but let's not get hung up on how the Lord uses our frailty to glorify himself.

As far as rejecting an uninspired hymn I don't see where that would be different than rejecting our confessions. The best argument that I have seen the EPer give is that it's better to be safe than sorry. I just can't believe that I will have to stand before the Throne and repent of singing 'Rock of Ages' in public worship. That would make as much sense as having to repent for reciting the Nicene creed in public worship.

I'm not arguing I'm just summarizing my thoughts after watching these endless arguments. I'm going to borrow the words of Eric Liddel and make them mine for a moment: When I sing 'Rock of Ages' in worship and I can't hold back the tears of my shame mixed with the joy of my Redeemer, I feel His pleasure.

Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee;
Let the water and the blood,
From Thy wounded side which flowed,
Be of sin the double cure;
Save from wrath and make me pure.

Not the labor of my hands
Can fulfill Thy law’s demands;
Could my zeal no respite know,
Could my tears forever flow,
All for sin could not atone;
Thou must save, and Thou alone.

Nothing in my hand I bring,
Simply to the cross I cling;
Naked, come to Thee for dress;
Helpless look to Thee for grace;
Foul, I to the fountain fly;
Wash me, Savior, or I die.

While I draw this fleeting breath,
When mine eyes shall close in death,
When I soar to worlds unknown,
See Thee on Thy judgment throne,
Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee.


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## JBaldwin

BobVigneault said:


> The thing that shocks me and amazes me about the Psalms is that they cover the scope and depth of human emotion much more thoroughly and unapologetically than most Christian writers today would ever dare.
> 
> I had a friend who lost a young son to a rare disease and he wrote a book about it. The first Christian publisher he took the text to rejected it because it wasn't victorious enough.
> 
> The psalms never leave our eyes centered on man YET, not only are large portions man-centered, they are centered on man's emotional states - high, low and capricious. We see human emotion that causes the psalmist to dance, to start drumming on tamborines, to shout, to scream, to weep, to curse other men, to wish their infants would be killed, to disembowel humans, to laugh, to lose sleep, to feel that his bones are melting.
> 
> There is always a 'BUT GOD' in the Psalms for we are being taught to ascribe to God His supreme worth for He alone is supremely worthy, but let's not get hung up on how the Lord uses our frailty to glorify himself.
> 
> As far as rejecting an uninspired hymn I don't see where that would be different than rejecting our confessions. The best argument that I have seen the EPer give is that it's better to be safe than sorry. I just can't believe that I will have to stand before the Throne and repent of singing 'Rock of Ages' in public worship. That would make as much sense as having to repent for reciting the Nicene creed in public worship.
> 
> I'm not arguing I'm just summarizing my thoughts after watching these endless arguments. I'm going to borrow the words of Eric Liddel and make them mine for a moment: When I sing 'Rock of Ages' in worship and I can't hold back the tears of my shame mixed with the joy of my Redeemer, I feel His pleasure.
> 
> Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
> Let me hide myself in Thee;
> Let the water and the blood,
> From Thy wounded side which flowed,
> Be of sin the double cure;
> Save from wrath and make me pure.
> 
> Not the labor of my hands
> Can fulfill Thy law’s demands;
> Could my zeal no respite know,
> Could my tears forever flow,
> All for sin could not atone;
> Thou must save, and Thou alone.
> 
> Nothing in my hand I bring,
> Simply to the cross I cling;
> Naked, come to Thee for dress;
> Helpless look to Thee for grace;
> Foul, I to the fountain fly;
> Wash me, Savior, or I die.
> 
> While I draw this fleeting breath,
> When mine eyes shall close in death,
> When I soar to worlds unknown,
> See Thee on Thy judgment throne,
> Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
> Let me hide myself in Thee.



Amen! Brother Bob, again you bring a sensible balance to these discussions.


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## JBaldwin

Kaalvenist said:


> JBaldwin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BobVigneault said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, what I was thinking was that if you resolve to read only from the Bible, you don't have to trouble yourself about such questions. Any knowledge not given by inspiration from God Himself is not God-centered enough.
> 
> No, that EP argument doesn't work for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't work for me either, Bob. As I have tried to point out. Some of the CCM songs are nothing more than Psalms set to contemporary music. In the lyrics, they are more accurate than metered Psalms, because they are word for word. Too bad they're not in the Psalter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Again, it's not an argument meant to "work" on anybody. And if a "CCM Psalm" is given out in a worship service, _a cappella,_ I will happily join my voice with yours in singing praise to our God. But the examples that were being given in this thread were not CCM Psalms.
Click to expand...


You make a good point, and in that, you are right. I will refer you to Bob's response below, because he said very clearly what I have been thinking.


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## Kaalvenist

BobVigneault said:


> The thing that shocks me and amazes me about the Psalms is that they cover the scope and depth of human emotion much more thoroughly and unapologetically than most Christian writers today would ever dare.
> 
> I had a friend who lost a young son to a rare disease and he wrote a book about it. The first Christian publisher he took the text to rejected it because it wasn't victorious enough.
> 
> The psalms never leave our eyes centered on man YET, not only are large portions man-centered, they are centered on man's emotional states - high, low and capricious. We see human emotion that causes the psalmist to dance, to start drumming on tamborines, to shout, to scream, to weep, to curse other men, to wish their infants would be killed, to disembowel humans, to laugh, to lose sleep, to feel that his bones are melting.
> 
> There is always a 'BUT GOD' in the Psalms for we are being taught to ascribe to God His supreme worth for He alone is supremely worthy, but let's not get hung up on how the Lord uses our frailty to glorify himself.
> 
> As far as rejecting an uninspired hymn I don't see where that would be different than rejecting our confessions. The best argument that I have seen the EPer give is that it's better to be safe than sorry. I just can't believe that I will have to stand before the Throne and repent of singing 'Rock of Ages' in public worship. That would make as much sense as having to repent for reciting the Nicene creed in public worship.
> 
> I'm not arguing I'm just summarizing my thoughts after watching these endless arguments. I'm going to borrow the words of Eric Liddel and make them mine for a moment: When I sing 'Rock of Ages' in worship and I can't hold back the tears of my shame mixed with the joy of my Redeemer, I feel His pleasure.
> 
> Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
> Let me hide myself in Thee;
> Let the water and the blood,
> From Thy wounded side which flowed,
> Be of sin the double cure;
> Save from wrath and make me pure.
> 
> Not the labor of my hands
> Can fulfill Thy law’s demands;
> Could my zeal no respite know,
> Could my tears forever flow,
> All for sin could not atone;
> Thou must save, and Thou alone.
> 
> Nothing in my hand I bring,
> Simply to the cross I cling;
> Naked, come to Thee for dress;
> Helpless look to Thee for grace;
> Foul, I to the fountain fly;
> Wash me, Savior, or I die.
> 
> While I draw this fleeting breath,
> When mine eyes shall close in death,
> When I soar to worlds unknown,
> See Thee on Thy judgment throne,
> Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
> Let me hide myself in Thee.


I've often made the same observation about the Psalms, Bob... the only difference is, that they were originally given and organized by men inspired by the Holy Ghost (small difference, I know  ). And while I adhere unswervingly to the creeds, I do not believe that the recitation of creeds is an ordinance of public worship. -- The argument that "it's better to be safe than sorry," as I recall, was not given by anyone adhering to the principle of exclusive psalmody; and it's not a particularly good argument, either. I've opposed such an argument from the beginning, and continue still opposing it. And I love that hymn as much as anyone here (Toplady's _Works_ was one of the first larger books I purchased when I went Reformed); I simply believe that Psalm-singing is God's ordinance, and hymn-singing is not God's ordinance.

But my original observation was not meant to begin an argument on this topic; so I will respectfully bow out, by your leave.


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## Jared

etexas said:


> YWAM has a lot of songs like that, I remember part of one that went, "He does all things well, just look at OUR lives." Hmmmm...



You guys will have to be patient with me since I come from a Charismatic background and I have only visited a couple of reformed churches. There are no conservative reformed churches in my town, so I'm sorta stuck with whatever I can find or not going at all. 

But couldn't you look at the line in the song that you quoted as referring to evidences of grace? This is how I took it. I have this song on my iPod and I listen to it once in a while. It's by Kevin Prosch.

BTW: The song is called "His Banner Over Me" and it is taken from the Song of Songs.


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