# RPW and Random Acts of Tradition



## Sonoftheday (Nov 21, 2007)

So it's that time of year again, the time of year known as (booming voice)"THE HOLIDAYS". This is the time of year that those, like me, who believe in the RPW but attend a church which does not, abhor. What are your beliefs about these things.

These are all things done during the LORD's Day congregational worship service at my church and others nearby.

1. Lottie Moon Offering Commercials, played on the drop screen.
2. Veterans Being honored with applause and a poem read about the work they do keeping the freedom of religion.
3. A whole service dedicated to Solo performances by anyone who wishes to sing. (No Sermon at all)
4. A Christmas Program where the Kids sing for your typical Christian Christmas songs. (sermon, but no congregational singing)
5. A service where instead of a sermon everyone who wishes stands and says what thier thankful for.
6. A service with no sermon, but instead a Nativity play.
7. This is not holiday related, but after every single sermon 15 mins of "Invitation" where everyone is asked "close your eyes, noone looking around"

These are a few of the things that have been driving me crazy lately. Would you say these are in violation of RPW or am being too staunch.


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## Coram Deo (Nov 21, 2007)

All of them are violations of the RPW.... Your not being to staunch. If people think you are, then God must be guilty of being to staunch with Nadab and Abihu... For what was their crime to be consumed by fire... Just bringing fire before the Lord that he had not commanded them but he never forbidden it either.... What a little thing to our minds to bring fire in a certain way but God abhor it and consumed the sacrificers. Why? Because worship is serious and we must only bring Spiritual oblations to the Lord that he as commanded... Only then are the oblations sweet aroma to His nostrils. Just remember he is still that consuming fire that consumed Nadab and Abihu.. He is still that consuming fire from Mount Sinai, only the fire from Mount Zion burns even hotter....

One reason why my family travel over an hour and a half to church every Sabbath... I have not been in a church that has had one of those items in your list in the past 6 or 7 years..... Since this is thanksgiving, It is one reason to be thankful for.....

Michael





Sonoftheday said:


> So it's that time of year again, the time of year known as (booming voice)"THE HOLIDAYS". This is the time of year that those, like me, who believe in the RPW but attend a church which does not, abhor. What are your beliefs about these things.
> 
> These are all things done during the LORD's Day congregational worship service at my church and others nearby.
> 
> ...


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## Puritan Sailor (Nov 21, 2007)

Sonoftheday said:


> So it's that time of year again, the time of year known as (booming voice)"THE HOLIDAYS". This is the time of year that those, like me, who believe in the RPW but attend a church which does not, abhor. What are your beliefs about these things.
> 
> These are all things done during the LORD's Day congregational worship service at my church and others nearby.
> 
> ...



Reform takes time. Pray for them. Be patient, especially, if there is no other church close by to which you may go. Use the means of grace God has provided you there, grow in your fellowship, and help others grow too. Let God deal with His church in His own good time.


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## Sonoftheday (Nov 21, 2007)

Thanks for the word of encouragement, I have thought of leaving this church several times, but I feel that God wants me to play a part in reforming this church. This is not only my opinion, but seems to be waranted by the fact that I was able to start teaching 2 bible study classes quite quickly. I try to reform all of those who attend my class, some have taken to it, while others have found other classes to attend. I would feel as if I somehow fail at my task when this happens, but the thing is its the ones who you can tell actually read thier bible and pray that are becoming reformed, those whos bibles only open on sunday are the ones who are very against such teachings as regeneration before faith.


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## Pilgrim (Nov 21, 2007)

Puritan Sailor said:


> Sonoftheday said:
> 
> 
> > So it's that time of year again, the time of year known as (booming voice)"THE HOLIDAYS". This is the time of year that those, like me, who believe in the RPW but attend a church which does not, abhor. What are your beliefs about these things.
> ...



 Strive to "strengthen the things that remain" if there is no other church nearby that hasn't fallen captive to entertainment and manipulation.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Nov 21, 2007)

Pilgrim said:


> Strive to "strengthen the things that remain" if there is no other church nearby that hasn't fallen captive to entertainment and manipulation.




Chris, 
This is very good advice.


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## Puritan Sailor (Nov 21, 2007)

Sonoftheday said:


> Thanks for the word of encouragement, I have thought of leaving this church several times, but I feel that God wants me to play a part in reforming this church. This is not only my opinion, but seems to be waranted by the fact that I was able to start teaching 2 bible study classes quite quickly. I try to reform all of those who attend my class, some have taken to it, while others have found other classes to attend. I would feel as if I somehow fail at my task when this happens, but the thing is its the ones who you can tell actually read thier bible and pray that are becoming reformed, those whos bibles only open on sunday are the ones who are very against such teachings as regeneration before faith.



Don't even try to "reform" them. It's possible to encourage people with Reformed theology without using all the lingo. Just stick with Scriptural texts and language for now. Help them to know Jesus and their Bible better and reform will come on it's own. If they show more interest later on you can point them to the more meatier theology texts.


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## ServantOfKing (Nov 21, 2007)

Is your church doing these things during Sunday morning worship, or holding special gatherings for them?


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## Reformed Covenanter (Nov 22, 2007)

Sonoftheday said:


> So it's that time of year again, the time of year known as (booming voice)"THE HOLIDAYS". This is the time of year that those, like me, who believe in the RPW but attend a church which does not, abhor. What are your beliefs about these things.
> 
> These are all things done during the LORD's Day congregational worship service at my church and others nearby.
> 
> ...




Doubtless these things are grievous to you, but if there is no other evangelical church nearby then you have no choice but to bear with your brethern. Sometimes people like me (from a wee small place like Northern Ireland) forget how big America is, and that there are sometimes hundreds of miles between thoroughly Reformed churches. I can reach about 15 psalm-singing churches in less than an hours drive from my house.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Nov 22, 2007)

Besides the Gospel Incarnation of Christ, the greatest post-messianic revival was the Reformation stretching from Wycliffe, those foundational Augustinian Monks who held to Predestiantion, to Huss, to Luther, Calvin, Zwingli and others of known report.

In "reforming" a church, follow thier lead.

http://www.apuritansmind.com/Reform...thewMcMahon.GradualReformationIntolerable.mp3

Or if you would rather read...

Gradual Reformation Intolerable


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## Rev. Todd Ruddell (Nov 22, 2007)

Sonoftheday said:


> Thanks for the word of encouragement, I have thought of leaving this church several times, but I feel that God wants me to play a part in reforming this church. This is not only my opinion, but seems to be waranted by the fact that I was able to start teaching 2 bible study classes quite quickly. I try to reform all of those who attend my class, some have taken to it, while others have found other classes to attend. I would feel as if I somehow fail at my task when this happens, but the thing is its the ones who you can tell actually read thier bible and pray that are becoming reformed, those whos bibles only open on sunday are the ones who are very against such teachings as regeneration before faith.


 
Dear Son of the Day, 

I am not familiar with your town, or of the Churches available for you to attend--so please bear this in mind as you read below. 

However, I cannot agree with your take on the situation where you currently attend. The Reformed and Presbyterian Churches today that hold tothe pure preaching of the Gospel, the Regulative Principle of Worship, Biblical Church government and discipline, the proper administration of the Sacraments, etc. are so few, that it behooves the people of God who *do* hold these Biblical truths and are "sorrowful for the solemn assembly" (Zephaniah 3.18) to join themselves with others of like, precious faith. I believe we have in every age, and especially in this one, a duty to attend the best Church in our area, and barring no good Church in our area to petition a Presbytery or Classis to begin working with us in our area, or, barring that, to move to an area where a sound Church exists. To continue to attend errant Churches, supporting them with God's tithe, and other support, is to rob those Churches who hold to the purity of those things mentioned above, what the Reformers called the "notes" or "marks" of the Church, and to perpetuate them in their errors. 

It is extraordinary, not ordinary, from the efforts of laymen teaching Sunday School classes, that a Church will be reformed. The *ordinary* means of Reform in a particular Church comes from the Pastor and session becoming convinced among themselves of the necessity of reform. My advice to you, dear friend, is to support the best Church in your area with your membership, attendance, prayer, tithes, and encouragement to the pastor and Session to perform their labors according to the pure Word of God. 

Moderators--If I have hijacked this thread, please feel free to move this post to new one.


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## Quickened (Nov 22, 2007)

thunaer said:


> All of them are violations of the RPW.... Your not being to staunch. If people think you are, t*hen God must be guilty of being to staunch with Nadab and Abihu... For what was their crime to be consumed by fire... Just bringing fire before the Lord that he had not commanded them but he never forbidden it either.... *What a little thing to our minds to bring fire in a certain way but God abhor it and consumed the sacrificers. Why? Because worship is serious and we must only bring Spiritual oblations to the Lord that he as commanded... Only then are the oblations sweet aroma to His nostrils. Just remember he is still that consuming fire that consumed Nadab and Abihu.. He is still that consuming fire from Mount Sinai, only the fire from Mount Zion burns even hotter....
> 
> One reason why my family travel over an hour and a half to church every Sabbath... I have not been in a church that has had one of those items in your list in the past 6 or 7 years..... Since this is thanksgiving, It is one reason to be thankful for.....
> 
> Michael



I bolded a part of your post that i wanted to ask a question about. Where can i read this in the bible and where are other similar verses? As in how can i compare these types of verses to how God actually wants us to worship. The thing is i agree that God wants worship a certain way. I just dont have the scriptual knowledge to bring up verses for people. Could you or anyone please dive into that a bit more or perhaps even like a useful article.


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## Sonoftheday (Nov 22, 2007)

Ok, a lot of input is coming my way and like MickeyD's "Im Lovin' it". I have to say this first off I am fairly new to the idea of RPW. I came to know the doctrines of Grace about 1 1/2 yrs ago, and since coming to these I have been growing by leaps and bounds spiritually and Theologically. I used to see all these events as normal sunday morning activities until about 3-4 months ago whenever i started understanding that the Lord's Day service is not "the same as worshipping on your own but only bigger" as I had been taught. The Lord's Day service is *holy* and commanded by the Lord. There are two chruches within 45 mins of mine that hold to the reformed faith. One of which is the Founders SBC in Owasso, ok. I have been praying and thinking much about whether to leave my home church for one of these 2 churches.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Nov 22, 2007)

Quickened said:


> thunaer said:
> 
> 
> > All of them are violations of the RPW.... Your not being to staunch. If people think you are, t*hen God must be guilty of being to staunch with Nadab and Abihu... For what was their crime to be consumed by fire... Just bringing fire before the Lord that he had not commanded them but he never forbidden it either.... *What a little thing to our minds to bring fire in a certain way but God abhor it and consumed the sacrificers. Why? Because worship is serious and we must only bring Spiritual oblations to the Lord that he as commanded... Only then are the oblations sweet aroma to His nostrils. Just remember he is still that consuming fire that consumed Nadab and Abihu.. He is still that consuming fire from Mount Sinai, only the fire from Mount Zion burns even hotter....
> ...



Jeremiah Burroughs, _Gospel Worship_, is particularly helpful in expounding the sense of the Nadab and Abihu passage as it relates to Biblical worship.


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## Sonoftheday (Nov 24, 2007)

I think I will be changing churches soon. It is something I have thought about often every since I came to embrace the doctrines of Grace. I didnt want to be one of those calvinists who become hyper calvanists as a reaction to thier arminian upbringing so this is one reason I stayed to help me remember that while thier theology is wrong non-calvinists are often christians too. Several months ago i started studying covenant theology, I quickly embraced it as the truth, my church is rather dispensational. I then embraced Amilleniallism and to some degree preterism (partial or idealism), my church is of course premill pretrib Left Behind might as well be the bible. Then i started studying ecclesiology and while not set with an exact system I do believe in Multiple elders. So my sotierology, Eschatology, Ecclesiology, Epistomology are all reformed and in opposition to the church I currently attend. While all of these reasons seemed like a good indication that i should go to another church they are theological matters that are often being debated and while they directly affect the way you live and worship it didnt seem to matter so much to me until studying the Lord's Day, and RPW. 

While I am unsure if I am sabatarian in the since that I believe the New Covenant Lord's Day is the same as the Old Covenant Sabath, I am sure that the Lord's Day is a day that should be Holy, set apart for the Lord. My church sees the Lord's day as just another day, I actually confuse people at times when I use the term Lord's Day, to them its sunday a day just like every other only we choose to go church on it because Jesus died on a sunday. From the understanding I then had of the Lord's day I started studying RPW and this is where major problems with the way my current church worships became noticeable. With the exception of #6 my church has done or has planned all the rest of the things i mentioned. (#6 is the other baptist church up the road). 

Basically the difference in a church that believes the Lord's Day is Holy, and practices RPW, and my church which does not is totally different. Also the matter of Christ Centered Preaching is one that has being bothering me greatly. Oh and preaching should be authoritative per biblical command not discussive. 

My reason for posting this long and boring biographical post that none you probably all quit reading by now is to say this. Thank you for helping me realize that these things which bothered me are in fact in violation of how God wishes to be worshipped. While i could perhaps work hard for 10-20 yrs changing peoples beliefs and helping them reform that would be yrs in which my daughter would have to recieve biblical teaching at home and postmodern teaching at church, furthermore that would be yrs in which I am tempting God to punish me as he did those in Corinth, Saul, and Aarons sons for worshipping him in ways which he does not want. God Bless you all for your input.


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