# Presuppositional Apologetics in Action!



## Apologist4Him (Aug 19, 2005)

The following is a copy of my response to an agnostic which has gone unanswered. 

An agnostic started by claiming "We're All in the Same Boat".

*Me:* My first question for you is this: How do you KNOW "we're all in the same boat"?

Agnostic: My starting point is simply this, I

*Me:* Your starting point can be described as: autonomy, subjectivism, human reasoning.

Agnostic: look around at the reality before me

*Me:* My second question for you is this: How can you KNOW when you subjectively "look around", that what you're looking at is "reality"? 

Agnostic: and I see no evidence of a supernatural being called God by any of the religions that claim a god or gods exist.

*Me:* My third quesiton for you is this: Where is the evidence for evidentialism, where is the evidence which demonstrates that you are approaching the issue with the correct method?

You assume before you're even presented "evidence" that a God has not revealed Himself. You assume naturalism is true, and thus the negation of supernaturalism before you're even presented with any "evidence". You also assume the law of causation, the reliability of sense perception, and the basic laws of logic, without being able to accout for an objective basis.

Agnostic: The natural world operates as it does without regard for human beings. We are products of the natural world and subject to it.

*Me:* You assume the world operates soley in a natural fashion, without acknowledging the problem of induction. You assume that you can know the world outside of your own existence objectively. Your worldview will not allow you to interpret the evidence in any other way than what you assume from the start. 

Agnostic: I do not observe that one god based religion seems somehow divinely favored over another. For example, I've never observed "Man, it seems everything goes right for those Christians when they pray for something".

*Me:* LOL, so you reject the truth of Christianity on pragmatic terms? Whatever "works" is true eh?

Agnostic: Any "evidence" put forth for examples of miracles can be explained without resorting to supernatural explanation.

*Me:* Here again your bias crops it's ugly face from the cracks of your will.

Agnostic: Some god based religions claim that God loves human beings and the Earth (as his creation) very much, more than we can imagine, yet we are subject to all sorts of suffering, calamity and diseases. I see no evidence that a god steps in an alleviates any of this. Let's face it, the least a god could do, assuming he loves humans as much as people claim, is reduce the amount of suffering and other horrible things, if he doesn't see fit to eliminate it completely.

*Me:*You are assuming objective evil on the basis of what? What makes you an authority on morality, versus a Pantheist who denies the existence of suffering and evil? 

Agnostic: Reality, the day to day world around me, is enough to strongly convince me there is no supernatural influence in this world. We're all in the same boat. Either a god or gods exist and they do not care to intervene in our world or no god or gods exist at all.

*Me:* So you reject Christianity on the basis of pragmatism, not whether it's true or not. How sad.

So how did I do? Ok, alright, fair?


----------



## Robin (Aug 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Apologist4Him_
> Agnostic: Some god based religions claim that God loves human beings and the Earth (as his creation) very much, more than we can imagine, yet we are subject to all sorts of suffering, calamity and diseases. I see no evidence that a god steps in an alleviates any of this. Let's face it, the least a god could do, assuming he loves humans as much as people claim, is reduce the amount of suffering and other horrible things, if he doesn't see fit to eliminate it completely.
> 
> *Me:*You are assuming objective evil on the basis of what? What makes you an authority on morality, versus a Pantheist who denies the existence of suffering and evil?
> ...



A, you're doing well....but, I'd hook him on this point....death IS a sign that there is a God! Death is the curse God placed on man in judgment for his treason. 

From there, argue the Covenant/Fall. Don't be shy about frank admission to God's dangerousness. Romans 1 "God shows His wrath every day..."

With respect, avoid all the fee-fee philosophical blather and GO (Do Not Collect $200) straight from the Law to the Gospel.

Be reeeeeaaallly nice when you tell 'em the bad news, but crystal clear. That way, guess what....the Law will "drive" them to the Gospel. (Don't skimp on the Gospel, btw. Use 1 Cor. 15:3, 4.)

Take no prisoners!

Robin


----------



## Apologist4Him (Aug 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by joshua_
> {MODERATOR}
> 
> Andrew, has the person you've quoted above given you permission to quote him elsewhere? Please find out, and if not, refrain from quoting him in the forums. See this thread. Thanks.



Maybe this thread should be deleted? I've quoted one of my public posts from another forum. I'm not sure what their policy is on quoting posts from their forums. My apologies if I've done something wrong, I was hoping something good might come out of my OP. Sorry.

[Edited on 8-20-2005 by joshua]


----------



## Apologist4Him (Aug 20, 2005)

Do I need his permission if it's a public messageboard where the posts are owned by the owners of the messageboard? In other words,, whether I post, or he posts, neither of us own the rights to the post, the owners of the messageboard own the rights to the text we've typed. I don't know if it makes any difference, but it wasn't a private chat, it was public. 

If I need his permission, I doubt he would grant it (can you imgine the response "sure, I don't mind being embarassed a second time in front of a new audience"). I did make sure not to use his handle (hence the generic "agnostic" name). But if I need his permission, do what you've gotta do. I understand it's nothing personal.


----------



## Apologist4Him (Aug 20, 2005)

I sent a message to a moderator of the forum I posted in asking for permission. Sorry about it being "after the fact". I'll try to remember to get permission first next time. Btw, I guess that means I should mention that I received permission somewhere in the post?


----------



## lycaphim (Aug 20, 2005)

Nice dialogue! I'm still starting out in presupp apologetics...

BTW, are you the same guy at Tweb? I've been chased away from that board no thanks to all the LFWs there. And J.P. Holding.


----------



## Apologist4Him (Aug 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by lycaphim_
> Nice dialogue! I'm still starting out in presupp apologetics...



Thanks, I know it helps sometimes to learn by example, it may not be the best example, but it's one of my most recent posts. 



> _Originally posted by lycaphim_BTW, are you the same guy at Tweb? I've been chased away from that board no thanks to all the LFWs there. And J.P. Holding.



Yep, I am the same guy posting at Tweb, although I have since changed my handle to "Calvinist4Him". I havn't been chased away, but I'm not sure non-Calvinist members give me the attention they used to. I'm kinda burned out on responding to Arminians, Molinists, OVTists, and everyone inbetween. More than anything, I'm burned out on the type of responses I typically get. This board is a refreshing change. It's nice to be here where so many mature and intelligent people post and we have mostly agreement, and can learn from one another, and build one another up.


----------



## john_Mark (Aug 20, 2005)

Hey, Andrew, I don't know how you handle it over there on those boards. I also remember when you and I used to go back and forth a bit prior to you being a Calvinist. Interesting how times change, brother.


----------



## Apologist4Him (Aug 20, 2005)

Hi Mark! 



> _Originally posted by john_Mark_
> Hey, Andrew, I don't know how you handle it over there on those boards.



I guess it helps that I was once one of them. It's both a blessing and curse, on one hand I can understand where many of them are coming from, on the other hand, I see people on all sides misrepresenting on another. We Calvinist are quite often misrepresented and offered strawmen, at the same time, we Calvinists are sometimes guilty of doing the same. I've nearly stopped posting at Tweb on more than one occassion. I don't know what keeps me coming back, addiction or conviction...or both! 



> _Originally posted by john_Mark_I also remember when you and I used to go back and forth a bit prior to you being a Calvinist.



Yeah, but spaz really got on my nerves sometimes. His method drove me crazy!  I miss Danflurry and Redgotee...



> _Originally posted by john_Mark_Interesting how times change, brother.



I give all the credit to God for getting through my thick head...all things considered...I think it's miraculous. That is to say, I can look back and see the LORD at work in various ways through various people through various circumstances at different times.


----------

