# What school?



## Claudiu (Feb 24, 2009)

I am currently enrolled at a community college and was wondering what suggestions you guys have for me going on to another school. My major is law, but before I get into to law school I want to double major in: Something in Theology, and an English degree. Are there any schools that come to mind that would be good that would have both of these programs? I am located in Northern California and was thinking to stay more on the west coast. Hopefully a reformed school or something more close to that would be great. I was thinking of the Master's College, or Whitworth Uni. If you guys believe a school is exceptionally great and is located anywhere else in the U.S. I am keeping my options open, so let me know.

Any input would be great.


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## Jen (Feb 24, 2009)

You know... after I graduated from university (History, UC Davis), I went to Master's for a year to do their Institute program -- a year of their Bible survey courses, the two theology survey courses (covering the major loci of doctrines), and some electives (I mostly took exposition classes). Since getting to Westminster, I've spent considerable amount of time undoing what they taught me, because dispensationalism just colours absolutely everything. Even in church history, I had to pick apart what my prof at Master's taught as it was totally coloured by his theology.

I also had the misfortune to attend the same term when MacArthur made those highly unfortunate remarks at the Shepherd's Conference on eschatology -- that was an exhausting semester in particular. It's also a bit of a shock to come to the end of this book written by your OT Survey professor (whom you like and find to be a genial person) and discover that he thinks the only Bible-believing Christians are dispensationalists (and that's not at all hyperbole -- I was stunned speechless when I read that).

I liked my theology prof the best -- he was the nicest when it came to eschatology, which is the very last unit (heh) in Christian Theology II. Nonetheless, you're basically taught (as they dub it) Classical Reformed theology in bits and pieces -- and in most places beyond soteriology as a bit of an error.

A friend of mine graduated from their English program and loved it, and from what I know of it, it's quite good, but their theology leaves a lot to be desired...


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## Claudiu (Feb 25, 2009)

Jen said:


> You know... after I graduated from university (History, UC Davis), I went to Master's for a year to do their Institute program -- a year of their Bible survey courses, the two theology survey courses (covering the major loci of doctrines), and some electives (I mostly took exposition classes). Since getting to Westminster, I've spent considerable amount of time undoing what they taught me, because dispensationalism just colours absolutely everything. Even in church history, I had to pick apart what my prof at Master's taught as it was totally coloured by his theology.
> 
> I also had the misfortune to attend the same term when MacArthur made those highly unfortunate remarks at the Shepherd's Conference on eschatology -- that was an exhausting semester in particular. It's also a bit of a shock to come to the end of this book written by your OT Survey professor (whom you like and find to be a genial person) and discover that he thinks the only Bible-believing Christians are dispensationalists (and that's not at all hyperbole -- I was stunned speechless when I read that).
> 
> ...



Thanks for the insight.

So you went to UC Davis. I live in Folsom right now (east side of Sacramento area), and UC Davis is my next option if I can't find a good school to go to. How did you like UC Davis?

I should probably rephrase my question to: what would be a good school, that is reformed in teaching, or at least inclined, that would offer the theology and English degrees I am interested in pursuing. The location doesn't matter, anywhere in the U.S. I guess.


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## he beholds (Feb 25, 2009)

I went to Geneva College. It is the college of the RPCNA. It is in Beaver Falls, PA, which is about 40 minutes north of Pittsburgh. 
I was an English major and I loved it. I wish I would have double majored in Bible, as the professors of Bible are great guys. 
There is a Reformed Presbyterian church basically on campus, plus many other RP and a PCA church and an OPC church all close enough by. 
This is not a nominal Christian school--nor is it nominally Reformed. However, I do wish I had learned more specifics of the Reformation while I was there. Certainly part of this was my fault, for being clueless in the first place, so they may have been throwing terminology around that meant nothing to me, or I just wasn't paying attention! There were required Bible classes and humanity classes and a Poli Sci class that were all taught with the Reformation specifically in mind.

Also, one of my roommates is now at Pitt Law school, after graduating from Geneva (with a miscellaneous masters degree from another great Pittsburgh school, Carnegie Mellon, thrown in there.) So a degree from Geneva is certainly a real and respected degree. 

There is something where Alumni can recommend (ok, recruit) h.s. students and get them scholarships. I'm not sure if it would work for people already graduated from h.s., but I would look into it for you if you were interested. 

A note, all of the Bible profs have to be Reformed, but I think the other profs just have to be Christians, though I do think they have to sign off on the WCF, as students did.


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## Claudiu (Feb 25, 2009)

he beholds said:


> I went to Geneva College. It is the college of the RPCNA. It is in Beaver Falls, PA, which is about 40 minutes north of Pittsburgh.
> I was an English major and I loved it. I wish I would have double majored in Bible, as the professors of Bible are great guys.
> There is a Reformed Presbyterian church basically on campus, plus many other RP and a PCA church and an OPC church all close enough by.
> This is not a nominal Christian school--nor is it nominally Reformed. However, I do wish I had learned more specifics of the Reformation while I was there. Certainly part of this was my fault, for being clueless in the first place, so they may have been throwing terminology around that meant nothing to me, or I just wasn't paying attention! There were required Bible classes and humanity classes and a Poli Sci class that were all taught with the Reformation specifically in mind.
> ...



Thanks for the rec. 

This is the kind of school I am interested in. 


However, looking at the tuition, is this fair for a college of this kind?: 

Schedule of Costs for 2008-2009
Tuition: Year Semester
$20,400 $10,200
Room & Board $7,450* $3,725*
Total $27,850 $13,925


Education is getting expensive everywhere nowadays. The average tuition I am finding for most colleges, private or otherwise, is in the range of $10k a semester. I am just wondering if it, in your opinion, is worth the cost to attend a college such as this?...I think it is, given that it is close to average, and the environment at a college like this would be a lot better than lets say your average state university.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Feb 25, 2009)

Check out Grove City College. I think it is right up your alley...

Grove City College, Pennsylvania - Top-ranked affordable Christian College


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## Claudiu (Feb 25, 2009)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Check out Grove City College. I think it is right up your alley...
> 
> Grove City College, Pennsylvania - Top-ranked affordable Christian College



Amazing, This is from the catalog: "The total College charge for one year covering tuition, room and board for new students 
is $18,514."..."Full-time Students, 12 to 17 semester hours . . . . . . . . . . . . . .$ 6,037.00"

So yes, thank you, this is very cheap indeed.


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## Jen (Feb 25, 2009)

cecat90 said:


> So you went to UC Davis. I live in Folsom right now (east side of Sacramento area), and UC Davis is my next option if I can't find a good school to go to. How did you like UC Davis?



I liked it. I lived at home and commuted (and since I'm from Woodland, north of Sacramento, it was a short commute -- it probably takes me about the same amount of time to drive through Escondido to get to Westminster's campus as it took me to drive from Woodland to Davis!), so I wasn't very connected with campus life or anything. The library's amazing. The campus itself is lovely and green -- though in the summer it's got a distinctive smell thanks to the cows we host (and study).

Since I transferred in, I only took all of one English class there, and it was lower-div, so I can't comment on that program. A friend of mine was an English/Poli-Sci double major (I've never met so many double-majors as at UCD), though, and we compared notes on our papers quite frequently -- she always said that she was glad she wasn't History because she hates research, while I always said I was glad that I wasn't English because I hate writing English papers.

I enjoyed my time in the History department, but it's bigger-ish (though not the biggest in the College of Letters & Sciences) and not very closely-knit. More fun was being an adopted Classicist (I minored in Latin) -- small department, small community, good times.

It's a good school, but since you do want to study theology, do make every effort to get to a solid school on that angle. There's just no substitute for being able to discuss the content of your classes with other students -- the best times I've had have been conversations with my fellow students on not only our classes, but our hopes that maybe someone will talk Dr. Van Drunen into writing a book on the basics of Two-Kingdom theory and its practical applications (which is totally a recurring theme in our conversations ).


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## fredtgreco (Feb 25, 2009)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Check out Grove City College. I think it is right up your alley...
> 
> Grove City College, Pennsylvania - Top-ranked affordable Christian College



Grove City is an excellent school.


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## Archlute (Feb 25, 2009)

fredtgreco said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> > Check out Grove City College. I think it is right up your alley...
> ...



An excellent school with an excellent OT prof who also has an ARP church plant in the area Christ Presbyterian Church.


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## Zenas (Feb 25, 2009)

he beholds said:


> I went to Geneva College. It is the college of the RPCNA. It is in Beaver Falls, PA, which is about 40 minutes north of Pittsburgh.
> I was an English major and I loved it. I wish I would have double majored in Bible, as the professors of Bible are great guys.
> There is a Reformed Presbyterian church basically on campus, plus many other RP and a PCA church and an OPC church all close enough by.
> This is not a nominal Christian school--nor is it nominally Reformed. However, I do wish I had learned more specifics of the Reformation while I was there. Certainly part of this was my fault, for being clueless in the first place, so they may have been throwing terminology around that meant nothing to me, or I just wasn't paying attention! There were required Bible classes and humanity classes and a Poli Sci class that were all taught with the Reformation specifically in mind.
> ...



Well if I ever get rich, move to PA, and go for a Masters, I know where I'm going.


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## matt01 (Feb 25, 2009)

I graduated from The Master’s College, and profited from my time there, though there are much better options available—many of the more cost efficient. Master’s is better than a public university, but not by much.


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## Craig (Feb 26, 2009)

Make sure you know what you're doing if you get a degree in English...have a plan for your career (after all, sometimes people change their minds about what they will do after their B.A.).

I got my degree in English...I loved it. I had planned on going to seminary...that did not happen, and I haven't been able to pursue careers associated with my educational background since. If you do get a degree in English, pursue education beyond that immediately as that is the *only way* you will capitalize on it (unless you focus on prepping for a career in teaching ESL courses).


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## DonP (Feb 26, 2009)

Or you could save a lot of time and money, skip college altogether, buy a bunch of puritan books or on CD now, many online, I would say you could get equivalent to a Thd for free if you read everything on Mongergism.com and a Puritans mind and memorized the Confession and a BOCO. 
The go get your own business going so you have free time with your family and unlimited income potential to serve the Lord with, as much as He brings to you. Why help some other person build his business with your college degree. 
Now if you are just dead set on being a lawyer and that is your calling, ... well Grove city is probably the best for what you are looking for.


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## he beholds (Feb 26, 2009)

Yes, Grove City is a great school! And more affordable, though I don't think they allow gov't financial aid, which is a great thing for them to not be beholden to the Fed, but maybe not great for every perspective student...I don't really know how that all plays out. But since it is much more affordable, I think it works out. 

They have some Reformed profs and they are just a little bit further from Pittsburgh, so they still have some of the other benefits of being near a big city: the two great schools for graduate/law degrees and even RPTS (Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary) which is from the same denomination as Geneva (should law school be replaced with seminary). 

I agree with the English major comment. I also had an education degree, but my husband graduated with English and history, and a masters degree was pretty much non-negotiable, if he wanted to work in his field. 

I loved Geneva and there were so many Reformed people, students and profs, that it was a great place and I would love for my own children to go there, but the money is a serious factor. My degree was used for two years, and then I had our first child. My dad spent a lot of money to help me meet my husband! And now my husband is spending a lot to keep me (my loans). I hope that my husband will teach at Geneva by the time our kids go to college! 

There are a lot of Reformed churches near either of those colleges. And really, Grove City is a great school. It has stricter acceptance standards and has a more prestigious reputation than Geneva, though I don't know if it is actually better academically. If you were strictly concerned with getting the best Bible degree, I'd say Geneva has got to be better, being Reformed, but I don't know that as an absolute fact! And I don't know if it's worth an extra 10K a year. 

Also, Covenant College in Chattanooga, TN (maybe it's technically in Georgia?) is the college of the PCA and it is a beautiful little campus, with a million Reformed churches nearby. I would allow my children to go there, as well. 

If you do end up at a State school, especially if your parents are Christians, I would try to live at home. No one should set themselves up to be bombarded with temptation 24 hours a day.


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## Joseph Scibbe (Feb 26, 2009)

I would say check out Cedarville University.

cedarville.edu


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## Claudiu (Feb 27, 2009)

Craig said:


> Make sure you know what you're doing if you get a degree in English...have a plan for your career (after all, sometimes people change their minds about what they will do after their B.A.).
> I've thought about that...and my parents remind me all the time
> 
> 
> I got my degree in English...I loved it. I had planned on going to seminary...that did not happen, and I haven't been able to pursue careers associated with my educational background since. If you do get a degree in English, pursue education beyond that immediately as that is the *only way* you will capitalize on it (unless you focus on prepping for a career in teaching ESL courses).



I am not wasting anytime after I finish my degree to go beyond that 

-----Added 2/27/2009 at 03:06:38 EST-----



PeaceMaker said:


> Or you could save a lot of time and money, skip college altogether, buy a bunch of puritan books or on CD now, many online, I would say you could get equivalent to a Thd for free if you read everything on Mongergism.com and a Puritans mind and memorized the Confession and a BOCO.
> The go get your own business going so you have free time with your family and unlimited income potential to serve the Lord with, as much as He brings to you. Why help some other person build his business with your college degree.
> Now if you are just dead set on being a lawyer and that is your calling, ... well Grove city is probably the best for what you are looking for.



 I think this every once in while when I look at society and get disgusted with it...I feel like just crawling up in a cave and read the rest of my life 

On the other hand, I can make in difference in the community by standing up for people. The Law field needs more honest people.

-----Added 2/27/2009 at 03:09:21 EST-----



he beholds said:


> If you do end up at a State school, especially if your parents are Christians, I would try to live at home. No one should set themselves up to be bombarded with temptation 24 hours a day.



Worst case scenario, thats what I am going to do (live at home).


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## Hamalas (Feb 27, 2009)

> I don't think they allow gov't financial aid



Praise God!!!


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## Claudiu (Feb 27, 2009)

Hamalas said:


> > I don't think they allow gov't financial aid
> 
> 
> 
> Praise God!!!



Why


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## Prufrock (Feb 27, 2009)

cecat90 said:


> Hamalas said:
> 
> 
> > > I don't think they allow gov't financial aid
> ...



It's not so much that they don't _allow_ it; it's rather that they're not _allowed_ it. Grove City and Hillsdale are the two colleges in the country that refuse all federal aid so that they can be free from any government restrictions and policies; a supreme court case later ruled that students receiving federal aid or loans also constituted an indirect form of federal aid to the school itself, thus opening the schools back up to federal regulation. By not allowing students to receive government aid, they are thus able to continue doing what they want. I can't speak for Grove City, but Hillsdale, shall we say, _quite generous_ in funding its students with what they miss out on by government aid.


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## he beholds (Feb 27, 2009)

Prufrock said:


> cecat90 said:
> 
> 
> > Hamalas said:
> ...



That is what I meant. I wasn't saying that they are big meanies, but rather they made the choice to not accept financial aid in exchange for freedom. 
Kind of like what some churches may have to end up doing someday with tax breaks.


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## mjmacvey (Mar 3, 2009)

For what it is worth, over the past 5 years some of the best students (in terms of preparation for graduate level theological studies) at WSC have come from these schools (in no particular order):

1) Grove City College
2) Geneva College
3) Covenant College 

All of these were mentioned above. They each have strong faculties in general, and in the Bible/Theology departments in particular, with individuals who are interested in upholding the reformed tradition. 

If you are looking to stay in California you might consider Providence Christian College Providence Christian College: A Reformed, Christian, Liberal Arts College in Ontario, CA. Providence is a young institution (4 years old) and is still very small, but they have started building a strong faculty and should be accredited within the next 2-3 years.


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## Claudiu (Mar 31, 2009)

Does anybody know of any reformed school at this level? (Thomas Aquinas College)

The Curriculum: (Thomas Aquinas College: The Curriculum)

It looks intense, it would be awesome if there is a reformed or non-Cath. liberal arts school like this that does the Great Books.


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## matt01 (Mar 31, 2009)

cecat90 said:


> It looks intense, it would be awesome if there is a reformed or non-Cath. liberal arts school like this that does the Great Books.



St. Johns' College is similar, though not Roman Catholic…

They have two campuses, the original in Annapolis and the second in Santa Fe. I applied to the graduate program in _another life_.

St. John's College


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## Hamalas (Mar 31, 2009)

You should come here to Patrick Henry. We are a classical school that uses the Great Books curriculum. 







Maybe take some time to check out our website: Patrick Henry College

Let me know if you have any questions!


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## Ex Nihilo (Mar 31, 2009)

Hamalas said:


> You should come here to Patrick Henry. We are a classical school that uses the Great Books curriculum.



I can't add anything about Patrick Henry specifically, but I wanted to add that my mentee went to Patrick Henry, and she is awesome. She is now in her first year at Harvard Law, so it definitely would not hurt you in pursuing a legal career.


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## jwithnell (Mar 31, 2009)

You might want to consider making sure you choose a school where you may attend a good church (where you could get excellent support in reading theology) and choose a curriculum that would allow you to get a thorough grounding in the English and US basis for legal philosophy. I am not an attorney, but it seems that so much of what goes on in government and the legal world is appallingly ignorant of its history.


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## Ex Nihilo (Mar 31, 2009)

jwithnell said:


> You might want to consider making sure you choose *a school where you may attend a good church* (where you could get excellent support in reading theology) and choose a curriculum that would allow you to get a thorough grounding in the English and US basis for legal philosophy. I am not an attorney, but it seems that so much of what goes on in government and the legal world is appallingly ignorant of its history.



Honestly, unless you go to one of a handful of elite undergraduate schools, it won't matter to law schools where you got your bachelor's degree. You are free to look for the location with the best church. 

I underestimated how useful economics is to a law student. I think English and theology are great prelaw majors -- I majored in English and history -- but a couple of courses in economics would probably help. I think the philosophical foundations of law would be useful, too; I definitely wish I knew more. Scott H. (Theoretical), another of our PB law students, knows much more about this than I do, and perhaps he can chime in with some advice.


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## Hamalas (Apr 1, 2009)

Ex Nihilo said:


> Hamalas said:
> 
> 
> > You should come here to Patrick Henry. We are a classical school that uses the Great Books curriculum.
> ...



May I ask what her name was?


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## Claudiu (Apr 2, 2009)

Hamalas said:


> You should come here to Patrick Henry. We are a classical school that uses the Great Books curriculum.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'll look into that...thanks


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## Jon Peters (Apr 2, 2009)

cecat90 said:


> Craig said:
> 
> 
> > Make sure you know what you're doing if you get a degree in English...have a plan for your career (after all, sometimes people change their minds about what they will do after their B.A.).
> ...



I know you want to study theology at school, in which case a state school is not a good option, but I wanted to defend the state schools just a bit. I went to UC Berkeley and love the school. My professors were top notch and it is a fantastic place to live. I also became a Christian while a junior, so it's not all bad! There is a fantastic little OPC just a few blocks from the campus.


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## Claudiu (Apr 2, 2009)

Jon Peters said:


> cecat90 said:
> 
> 
> > Craig said:
> ...



Thanks for the insight...I just passed through Berkeley on my way to San Francisco. Honestly, I really like the bay area. Many people complain about all the liberals down there, but I dont mind. When I was in SF there were actually a lot of street witnessing chances because of the abundance of lost people. UC Berkeley is a great school, and I heard they have an excellent English department. Either way, I am weighing out all my options.


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