# A Question Regarding Predestination



## apaleífo̱ (Feb 15, 2007)

Well, to start off, a friend of my mother's has been aggravating me about the Puritans by saying that because they were Calvinists, they believed that there were some who were 'the elect' and were thus saved and had no chance of going to hell no matter what they did. 

Will someone please tell me the truth about the Puritans' relationship to Calvinism, how far they went with predestination -- and also a good refutation to her blatant falsehood?


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## Poimen (Feb 15, 2007)

I don't mean to be glib but you could begin with Chapter 10 of the Westminster Confession (a fine Puritan work!):



> I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God, _taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and, by his almighty power, determining them to that which is good,_ and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ: yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace. (italics mine)



You will note here that predestination results in a holy life. (as per the italics) The Puritans believed that God's election was unconditional but that it _always_ resulted in holy living, just as Paul himself teaches in Ephesians 1:4; 2:10. 

No Puritan/Reformed person believes that we have no chance of going to hell no matter what simply because we all children of wrath by nature. (Ephesians 2:3) Everyone is headed for hell but God out of His grace and mercy chooses and rescues some for eternal life but not without also changing their hearts and lives for the glory of His name. 

I hope this helps. And, if you want to dig a little deeper, you are sure to find a more comprehensive answer on Matt's web page:

http://www.apuritansmind.com


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## Blueridge Believer (Feb 15, 2007)

christabella_warren said:


> Well, to start off, a friend of my mother's has been aggravating me about the Puritans by saying that because they were Calvinists, they believed that there were some who were 'the elect' and were thus saved and had no chance of going to hell no matter what they did.
> 
> Will someone please tell me the truth about the Puritans' relationship to Calvinism, how far they went with predestination -- and also a good refutation to her blatant falsehood?



She's right about the Puritans Calvinism. However, she was dead wrong in her assertion that they believed they could live any way they wanted to. That is the standard argument given by people who believe in works savation. Since we believe in the perseverance of the saints, that we are eternally secure in Christ, they assume that we believe we can live any way we want.
I suggest that you review the works of several puritan writers as well as the Westminster confession, and other sound confessions of faith from the 16th and 17th centuries.
Hope this helps,
brother James


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## Chris (Feb 15, 2007)

> were thus saved and had no chance of going to hell no matter what they did



My chances of going to Hell, as a calvinist, are exactly equal to my chances of walking away from God and living the balance of my life in open rebellion to Him. 

You can't separate the two.


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## Theoretical (Feb 15, 2007)

christabella_warren said:


> Well, to start off, a friend of my mother's has been aggravating me about the Puritans by saying that because they were Calvinists, they believed that there were some who were 'the elect' and were thus saved and had no chance of going to hell no matter what they did.
> 
> Will someone please tell me the truth about the Puritans' relationship to Calvinism, how far they went with predestination -- and also a good refutation to her blatant falsehood?


Well, while there are the elect who will not be condemned, the key thing about it that your mom's friend is missing/ignoring is that salvation is from God Himself, and He appoints the means that His people will remain in the fold. This is where perseverance comes into play...it it not merely a question of OSAS (Once-saved, always saved), it is God _preserving_ a remnant of sinful humanity to be His people. 

Without the sustenance of His grace, any of us would revert back to our deep rebellion against Him, so deep and ruinous is our sin nature. Also, I'd suggest some reading on the Third Use of the Law as to Godly living.

From WCF XIX



> VI. Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts, and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin; together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of his obedience. It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin, and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law. The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof; although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works: so as a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one, and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law, and not under grace.
> VII. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the gospel, but do sweetly comply with it: the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requireth to be done.



One of the more vivid descriptions I've also seen is from the Lutheran Book of Concord - in this case, the _Solid Declaration -_ First heard this reference on the White Horse Inn



> [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*10]* But we must also explain distinctively what the Gospel does, produces, and works towards the new obedience of believers, and what is the office of the Law in this matter, as regards the good works of believers. [/FONT]
> [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*11]* For the Law says indeed that it is God's will and command that we should walk in a new life, but it does not give the power and ability to begin and do it; but the Holy Ghost, who is given and received, not through the Law, but through the preaching of the Gospel, Gal. 3, 14, renews the heart. *12]* Thereafter the Holy Ghost employs the Law so as to teach the regenerate from it, and to point out and show them in the Ten Commandments what is the [good and] acceptable will of God, Rom. 12, 2, in what good works God hath before ordained that they should walk, Eph. 2, 10. He exhorts them thereto, and when they are idle, negligent, and rebellious in this matter because of the flesh, He reproves them on that account through the Law, so that He carries on both offices together: He slays and makes alive; He leads into hell and brings up again. For His office is not only to comfort, but also to reprove, as it is written: When the Holy Ghost is come, He will reprove the world (which includes also the old Adam) of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment. *13]* But sin is everything that is contrary to God's Law. *14]* And St. Paul says: All Scripture given by inspiration of God is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, etc., and to reprove is the peculiar office of the Law. Therefore, as often as believers stumble, they are reproved by the Holy Spirit from the Law, and by the same Spirit are raised up and comforted again with the preaching of the Holy Gospel. [/FONT]
> [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*15]* But in order that, as far as possible, all misunderstanding may be prevented, and the distinction between the works of the Law and those of the Spirit be properly taught and preserved it is to be noted with especial diligence that when we speak of good works which are in accordance with God's Law (for otherwise they are not good works), then the word Law has only one sense, namely, the immutable will of God, according to which men are to conduct themselves in their lives. [/FONT]
> [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*16]* The difference, however, is in the works, because of the difference in the men who strive to live according to this Law and will of God. For as long as man is not regenerate, and [therefore] conducts himself according to the Law and does the works because they are commanded thus, from fear of punishment or desire for reward, he is still under the Law, and his works are called by St. Paul properly works of the Law, for they are extorted by the Law, as those of slaves; and these are saints after the order of Cain [that is, hypocrites]. [/FONT]
> [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*17]* But when man is born anew by the Spirit of God, and liberated from the Law, that is, freed from this driver, and is led by the Spirit of Christ, he lives according to the immutable will of God comprised in the Law, and so far as he is born anew, does everything from a free, cheerful spirit; and these are called not properly works of the Law, but works and fruits of the Spirit, or as St. Paul names it, the law of the mind and the Law of Christ. For such men are no more under the Law, but under grace, as St. Paul says, Rom. 8, 2 [Rom. 7, 23; 1 Cor. 9, 21]. [/FONT]​



"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For as long as man is not regenerate, and [therefore] conducts himself according to the Law and does the works because they are commanded thus, from fear of punishment or desire for reward, he is still under the Law, and his works are called by St. Paul properly works of the Law, for they are extorted by the Law, as those of slaves; and these are saints after the order of Cain [that is, hypocrites]."

"[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]But when man is born anew by the Spirit of God, and liberated from the Law, that is, freed from this driver, and is led by the Spirit of Christ, he lives according to the immutable will of God comprised in the Law, and so far as he is born anew, does everything from a free, cheerful spirit; and these are called not properly works of the Law, but works and fruits of the Spirit, or as St. Paul names it, the law of the mind and the Law of Christ. For such men are no more under the Law, but under grace, as St. Paul says."

There is a profound strength and vigor in this contrast. I hope these resources were helfpul.
[/FONT]


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## Mathetes (Feb 15, 2007)

I'm not sure exactly what the Puritans believed about predestination - that is, how it may differ from contemporary Calvinism; however, while it may be true that God's choice is made regardless of our own actions (Eph 1), the elect are not left to do whatever. God's act of regeneration changes the nature of the believer, and by grace keeps them in sanctification, leading them towards godly behavior.

So on the one hand it's true that someone whom God chooses will never be lost, it's also true that God will carry them through in sancitification. He doesn't just drop us after regeneration, leaving us to our own (antinomian) devices.

edit: oh you guys think you're so fast with the reply button don't you


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## Theoretical (Feb 15, 2007)

christabella_warren said:


> Well, to start off, a friend of my mother's has been aggravating me about the Puritans by saying that because they were Calvinists, they believed that there were some who were 'the elect' and were thus saved and had no chance of going to hell no matter what they did.
> 
> Will someone please tell me the truth about the Puritans' relationship to Calvinism, how far they went with predestination -- and also a good refutation to her blatant falsehood?


Also, nice to see you back on the PB, c.


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## apaleífo̱ (Feb 15, 2007)

Thanks, Mr. Hooker -- I'll try to spend more time on this board from now on (I've just been swamped with college applications and the like)!  

And also, thanks to all of you for clearing all of this up for me. You've really put my mind at rest about this; even though I didn't really believe her, it's just a relief sometimes to hear other people who aren't out to demonise the Puritans and their beliefs (especially since I consider myself a Puritan).

Thanks again, my friends, and God bless you all!


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## Contra_Mundum (Feb 15, 2007)

c,
If you are an historic Anglican, you might also, if you have the time, examine the "39 Articles", which form the Confessional bone and marrow of your church. They are the doctrinal confession of your church, and they are Augustinian on predestination--which means they stand square in the deepest stream of Christian theology since the early church. And Calvinism is nothing but Augustinianism as well.

Simply put, the Augustinian view is a solid defense of the Scriptural doctrine, replete with hard-core biblical defense. And all the deviations from the truth of the Bible are the minds of *sinful* men recoiling from the divine declaration. People saying, "I don't _like_ that view, therefore God must not have said it." Not an especially strong rebuttle.

So, not surprisingly, they also put a prejudicial "spin" on what they claim Puritans, Calvinists, Augustinian predestinarians believe. They make a straw man, and burn it. My dear young lady, for your sake please make a commitment _first_ that you will believe whatever God has revealed in his Word. And then, study the relevant Articles of your church's doctrine. And though you may struggle, when at last you accept God's Word on the matter, you will find Election is the most comforting and hopeful doctrine in the whole Bible.


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## apaleífo̱ (Feb 15, 2007)

Contra_Mundum said:


> c,
> My dear young lady, for your sake please make a commitment _first_ that you will believe whatever God has revealed in his Word. And then, study the relevant Articles of your church's doctrine. And though you may struggle, when at last you accept God's Word on the matter, you will find Election is the most comforting and hopeful doctrine in the whole Bible.



Really, sir, I _have_ made such a commitment and I believe I am well on my way to accepting John Calvin's teachings. However, I just needed this misconception cleared up first. 

You made a very good point when you said that people tend to believe what they _want_ to believe, rather than what God wants them to believe.


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## Mathetes (Feb 15, 2007)

Aye, Calvinists usually have to spend more time dealing with strawmen than getting to the real issues.


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## Theoretical (Feb 15, 2007)

Mathetes said:


> Aye, Calvinists usually have to spend more time dealing with strawmen than getting to the real issues.


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## Civbert (Feb 15, 2007)

christabella_warren said:


> Well, to start off, a friend of my mother's has been aggravating me about the Puritans by saying that because they were Calvinists, they believed that there were some who were 'the elect' and were thus saved and had no chance of going to hell no matter what they did.
> 
> Will someone please tell me the truth about the Puritans' relationship to Calvinism, how far they went with predestination -- and also a good refutation to her blatant falsehood?



Well technically this is correct. The elect have no chance of going to hell, no matter what they do. Technically, an elect person could do any sort of evil. But since they are elect, their salvation is guaranteed. Buuuuuut, no one know who exactly are the elect. 

Your friend may be confusing election with regeneration. Election is a permanent state of being, determined by God before you are born. You are born elect. Regeneration ("being saved") is the historic event in ones life when they receive the Holy Spirit and saving faith. This will happen to all elect people. And it too is permanent. "Once saved, always saved." This is also know as the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. 

So do Calvinist get saved and then go out and steal and murder knowing they have been saved. Nope. Calvinist do not assume that just because someone has had some sort of "conversion experience" and prayed the "sinners prayer" that they are saved. For if someone has truly been "saved", then there should be evidence - a change of life, a desire to please God. These are the evidence of "being saved". Yes, the regenerate person was always elect. And the regenerate person can not become unregenerate. But if someone goes off and lives a life of debauchery, then it we can say that they never were regenerate. 

Jesus can forgive any sin - murder, rape, theft. So it is possible for some criminal who has wasted his life in sin, to receive saving faith by the grace of God (i.e., to be regenerated and receive the Holy Spirit), and thus have all his sins forgiven. And said criminal would have always been one of the elect. Any sinner is potentially one of the elect no matter how sinful. But no one can count on being elect. And we can only look for the fruits of regeneration. We examine our hearts for evidence of being "saved". If we continue in sin, we have good reason to be worried. No right minded Calvinist believes they are personally elect and therefore has a license to sin. 

So technically, your friend is correct. If someone is elect, there is no chance they will go to hell no matter what they do. But we can only hope that someone is elect. We can not really know who the elect are. God has not given us the book where he has written all the names of the elect. And if we don't see the fruits of faith, we have no reason to believe we are regenerate, much less elect.


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## AV1611 (Feb 16, 2007)

christabella_warren said:


> ...they believed that there were some who were 'the elect' and were thus saved and had no chance of going to hell no matter what they did.



In one sense this is correct and yet in another it is wrong. The simple verses would be Romans 6 and Ephesians 2:10.

Thomas Shepard was an American Puritan who severely crticised the Antinomians (_nomos_ = law; _anti_ = against). Two of his greatest practical writings are here:
1. The Sincere Convert (1640) or pdf
2. The Sound Believer (1645) or pdf


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## apaleífo̱ (Feb 16, 2007)

Thanks for referring them to me, sir, I'll check them out.


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## AV1611 (Feb 16, 2007)

christabella_warren said:


> sir



First time I have been called that


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