# Lack Of Tithing Grounds For Termination?



## servantofmosthigh

Here's an interesting situation I heard through several friends, to which I'll share with you to solicit your thoughts...

An associate pastor has been serving in a church for less than a year. The finance committee discovered that he wasn't tithing. So they brought it up to the senior pastor. The senior pastor confronted the associate pastor about it, and discovered that the associate pastor does not believe in tithing but is willing to start tithing for the sake of appeasing the church. The elders are convening to discuss terminating their associate pastor.

What are your thoughts? Is a pastor's/elder's lack of tithing grounds for termination? While he is willing to start tithing for the sake of appeasing church expectations, he's not convicted by Scripture about it.


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## JBaldwin

I would think that an issue like tithing should have been discussed at the associate pastor's job interview if it was going to be an issue in keeping his position. Even so, if he is willing to submit to the elders and tithe, and there is no other reason to let the associate pastor go, the elders should drop the matter. I do wonder, why was the finance committee checking into the giving of the associate pastor?


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## Herald




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## JBaldwin

Will, 

Is this by any chance a PCA church?


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## etexas

servantofmosthigh said:


> Here's an interesting situation I heard through several friends, to which I'll share with you to solicit your thoughts...
> 
> An associate pastor has been serving in a church for less than a year. The finance committee discovered that he wasn't tithing. So they brought it up to the senior pastor. The senior pastor confronted the associate pastor about it, and discovered that the associate pastor does not believe in tithing but is willing to start tithing for the sake of appeasing the church. The elders are convening to discuss terminating their associate pastor.
> 
> What are your thoughts? Is a pastor's/elder's lack of tithing grounds for termination? While he is willing to start tithe for the sake of appeasing church expectations, he's not convicted by Scripture about it.


...Did the Associate Pastor present any reasons for his stance? At first blush I would say termination is wrong if he never lied (claimed to tithe and did not) secondly if he is willing now to accommodate the wishes of the Church in this matter and begin tithing, I am not sure why they would still wish to terminate? Just my...


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## servantofmosthigh

JBaldwin said:


> Will,
> 
> Is this by any chance a PCA church?



I don't know. I was at T4G conference and met a new brother-in-Christ there who was telling me about his church situation. I didn't ask with what denomination his church was affiliated.


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## Hippo

There was a thread on an oversight of giving recently and the general consensus was that such an approach was unwarranted and dangerous. 

This thread shows exactly why there was unease. This guy is willing to abide by the church's teaching on what is not exactly a crystal clear teaching but he is still going to get sacked, the love of money may indeed be the root of all kinds of evil and even churches can fall pray to this particular sin.


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## servantofmosthigh

etexas said:


> ...Did the Associate Pastor present any reasons for his stance? At first blush I would say termination is wrong if he never lied (claimed to tithe and did not) secondly if he is willing now to accommodate the wishes of the Church in this matter and begin tithing, I am not sure why they would still wish to terminate? Just my...



I was at T4G conference and met a new brother-in-Christ, a lay elder, who was telling me about his church's situation.

From what he tells me, the associate pastor believes that tithing is an Old Testament concept, and no longer applies to New Testament Christians. But he's not dogmatic about it. It's the senior pastor who is pushing the agenda to terminate him.

I told the brother that it sounded to me that the bigger issue is not the issue of tithing, but that the senior pastor doesn't have good relations with his associate pastor. Otherwise, the senior pastor would drop this issue.


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## JBaldwin

servantofmosthigh said:


> etexas said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...Did the Associate Pastor present any reasons for his stance? At first blush I would say termination is wrong if he never lied (claimed to tithe and did not) secondly if he is willing now to accommodate the wishes of the Church in this matter and begin tithing, I am not sure why they would still wish to terminate? Just my...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was at T4G conference and met a new brother-in-Christ, a lay elder, who was telling me about his church's situation.
> 
> From what he tells me, the associate pastor believes that tithing is an Old Testament concept, and no longer applies to New Testament Christians. But he's not dogmatic about it. It's the senior pastor who is pushing the agenda to terminate him.
> 
> I told the brother that it sounded to me that the bigger issue is not the issue of tithing, but that the senior pastor doesn't have good relations with his associate pastor. Otherwise, the senior pastor would drop this issue.
Click to expand...


Sadly, this kind of thing is all too common in the church.


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## fredtgreco

servantofmosthigh said:


> etexas said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...Did the Associate Pastor present any reasons for his stance? At first blush I would say termination is wrong if he never lied (claimed to tithe and did not) secondly if he is willing now to accommodate the wishes of the Church in this matter and begin tithing, I am not sure why they would still wish to terminate? Just my...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was at T4G conference and met a new brother-in-Christ, a lay elder, who was telling me about his church's situation.
> 
> From what he tells me, the associate pastor believes that tithing is an Old Testament concept, and no longer applies to New Testament Christians. But he's not dogmatic about it. It's the senior pastor who is pushing the agenda to terminate him.
> 
> I told the brother that it sounded to me that the bigger issue is not the issue of tithing, but that the senior pastor doesn't have good relations with his associate pastor. Otherwise, the senior pastor would drop this issue.
Click to expand...


The good news for the Associate: tithing may very well be an OT standard

The bad news: the NT standard is to be more generous, and give more than the tithe.


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## blhowes

Hippo said:


> This guy is willing to abide by the church's teaching on what is not exactly a crystal clear teaching but he is still going to get sacked, the love of money may indeed be the root of all kinds of evil and even churches can fall pray to this particular sin.


Its hard to see why they'd consider sacking him. He submitted, the church got the money, so, are there more details to the story as to why they still wanted to sack him? Is he also expected to preach on tithing as well, or something?


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## DMcFadden

There were too many missing details to speak knowledgeably. We really need to be careful about pontificating on cases where we don't know the whole situation. 

Generally speaking, however, during my pastorates, I had numerous full time associates. Nobody from our finance committee ever told me about their giving patterns. We did not do that in my congregations. This makes me think that he may not have been giving at all. And, that may be the reason why the issue got flagged. And, yes, I would feel that it was a pretty hypocritical thing to be a pastor of a church and not contribute to its support.

If he is willing to submit, however, then I agree with Will that it smells as if something else is going on besides the money. If he was only "willing" to go along but did so with a bad attitude, that would still be an issue. Otherwise, the senior pastor sounds way out of line. Sad.

There are enough reasons why congregation members roll their eyes over the expectations of their pastors. To preach the need for Christian stewardship and have a staff pastor not participate would undermine the ministry and credibility of the senior pastor. That is generally not a good way to assure longevity for associate pastors, at least in baptist circles.


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## py3ak

The church pays his salary, right? They could just dock 10% of that if they feel so strongly about the matter....


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## fredtgreco

Here's a curious question: if you are a Presbyterian minister, should you tithe to the church or the Presbytery?


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## JBaldwin

fredtgreco said:


> Here's a curious question: if you are a Presbyterian minister, should you tithe to the church or the Presbytery?



I wondered the same thing which is why I asked about the denomination. Do associate pastors in the PCA belong to the church or the presbytery?


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## fredtgreco

All ministers do: senior, solo, associate and assistant.


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## brymaes

> All ministers do: senior, solo, associate and assistant.


Belong to the presbytery, you mean?


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## fredtgreco

theologae said:


> All ministers do: senior, solo, associate and assistant.
> 
> 
> 
> Belong to the presbytery, you mean?
Click to expand...


Yes.


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## Brian Bosse

Hello Everyone,

I think there is a much bigger issue here. First off, I do not believe tithing is a New Testament command. Rather, our lives our not our own - and all of what we have belongs to God. Anyone who is not a giver needs to consider whether or not they are even saved. The bottom line ends up being the condition of our heart! 

My biggest concern regarding the assistant Pastor is precisely the condition of his heart. His response that he would begin tithing to "appease the church" sounds rotten and wrong to me. It shows a hirling mentality and a lack of understanding. The 'why' in our giving is much more important that the 'how much.' 

I think I need to repent for my own hard heart. 

Brian


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## JBaldwin

Brian Bosse said:


> Hello Everyone,
> 
> I think there is a much bigger issue here. First off, I do not believe tithing is a New Testament command. Rather, our lives our not our own - and all of what we have belongs to God. Anyone who is not a giver needs to consider whether or not they are even saved. The bottom line ends up being the condition of our heart!
> 
> My biggest concern regarding the assistant Pastor is precisely the condition of his heart. His response that he would begin tithing to "appease the church" sounds rotten and wrong to me. It shows a hirling mentality and a lack of understanding. The 'why' in our giving is much more important that the 'how much.'
> 
> I think I need to repent for my own hard heart.
> 
> Brian




I noticed that comment, too, but brushed it off, as I wondered if that was just how the incident was repeated. My thought was that if the associate pastor was willing to let go of it that easily, he probably was giving money somewhere else for some other reason.


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## brymaes

fredtgreco said:


> theologae said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All ministers do: senior, solo, associate and assistant.
> 
> 
> 
> Belong to the presbytery, you mean?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes.
Click to expand...

Isn't it the case in the OPC that 'assistant' ministers are generally on the session but not members of Presbytery, while 'associate' ministers are members of presbytery?


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## Contra_Mundum

Brian,
1) you are thinking about the PCA, not the OPC. The OPC does not really carve up the ministry into rankings. Even associate pastors aren't called _as such_ in the OPC.

2 ) PCA assistant pastors ARE called by the session, and not the congregation, and so serve at their call, but they are examined by presbytery same as all other true pastors and their call acknowledged, and they are full members of Presbytery. I was such an assistant pastor. And I was a member of Presbytery, following my ordination.

3) however some churches do take "staff" which are NOT presbytery members, and call them "pastors" they really aren't, and shouldn't take the designation. They have not been ordained.


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## etexas

I served on Vestry while an Anglican, I knew (in general) what was the families were giving on average, however, it was never snooping, it was just a way to set budgets: I find it odd that they were poking around to figure out what % the guy was giving. We did not do this to our Priests or Laymen. Strange. I think there must be more to it, so like Dennis said I cannot pass judgment here. Odd situation.


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## Contra_Mundum

On the subject of the thread... WHY does the church dig into these things???

Either tell a hire You are expected to return a 10th of your paycheck, because that's how we do the budget. We factor out 90% of what we pay you when we estimate our other expenditures and expected income. We are counting on that $$$ to pay the Neeblefesters (our missionaries in Timbuktu) in December​or pay him and forget it.

Frankly, no one needs to know anything about individual giving (just stats, please, if necessary) except the Treasurer. I'm disgusted at church leadership's penchant for abuse of power regarding money. Who has the "love of money" problem here? The rest of the leadership, that's who.

That man's "giving" issue is between him and God. What if they are paying a man below the "average" living wage for the area? How much is he supposed to "give" then? If he works 65 hours a week, for no extra money, is that enough "giving back"?

BTW, I'm NOT saying this because I have personal issues with money, with salary, or my giving--no problems or issues. I have a BIG problem with people using giving as a weapon.


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## etexas

Contra_Mundum said:


> On the subject of the thread... WHY does the church dig into these things???
> 
> Either tell a hire You are expected to return a 10th of your paycheck, because that's how we do the budget. We factor out 90% of what we pay you when we estimate our other expenditures and expected income. We are counting on that $$$ to pay the Neeblefesters (our missionaries in Timbuktu) in December​or pay him and forget it.
> 
> Frankly, no one needs to know anything about individual giving (just stats, please, if necessary) except the Treasurer. I'm disgusted at church leadership's penchant for abuse of power regarding money. Who has the "love of money" problem here? The rest of the leadership, that's who.
> 
> That man's "giving" issue is between him and God. What if they are paying a man below the "average" living wage for the area? How much is he supposed to "give" then? If he works 65 hours a week, for no extra money, is that enough "giving back"?


Bruce, when I was on Vestry we never probed about what people gave in that sense we knew in general what the average family gave (as well as special gifts) simply so we could tweek our budget. I did not mean to sound as if we were being nosy or legalistic, if someone gave nothing they would remain members. Sorry I was not clear. (blush)


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## brymaes

Contra_Mundum said:


> Brian,
> 1) you are thinking about the PCA, not the OPC. The OPC does not really carve up the ministry into rankings. Even associate pastors aren't called _as such_ in the OPC.
> 
> 2 ) PCA assistant pastors ARE called by the session, and not the congregation, and so serve at their call, but they are examined by presbytery same as all other true pastors and their call acknowledged, and they are full members of Presbytery. I was such an assistant pastor. And I was a member of Presbytery, following my ordination.
> 
> 3) however some churches do take "staff" which are NOT presbytery members, and call them "pastors" they really aren't, and shouldn't take the designation. They have not been ordained.


Thanks Bruce. Sorry to detract from the thread.


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## staythecourse

*Giving in the NT*

I agree with Brian regarding the amount to be given. There is no law anymore regarding a tithe but examples we see are 1) a widow giving 100% even though she was broke. This act was worth more to God than the 10% of those with plenty and 2) a church giving "more than they were able" (which to me means they went into debt) for the sake of the gospel. Apparently, the most blessed believers give the most (across the board not just in money matters)

I can't think of other specific amounts mentioned nor attitudes of givers except those two in the NT

I can't fault the associate pastor for not wanting to put a stumbling block before others and give 10%. The apostle who explained freedom most thoroughly, Paul, shaved his head when Jews were nervous believing he was negating the law.

The Associate Pastor needs to to some fast humbling of self as a witness to others to keep unity in the church. His knowledge might cause weaker brothers (even if it's the Sr Pastor and others) to make a mistake. This is assuming all are operating in a good conscious.


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## bookslover

Hmmm. If a person tithes, but is not convinced that tithing is commanded in Scripture this side of the Cross, is he sinning?


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## Nse007

In a slightly related question, is it ok for the session to ask the congregation to consider giving 11%? This has happened to me before. The reason they asked was because we were under budget.


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## hollandmin

I give cash as a tithe, is this to say that because there is no record of the amount that I give that I should not be employed by the church? Of course not! What an individual gives as a tithe is no ones business but between you and God. I don't want to know what those in my congregation give nor do I want to have access to that information. If we start becoming tithing police I would expect people to leave the congregation they are in for that very reason. We have NEVER had money issues in our church, I believe that part of the reason is because the issue of Tithes and offerings are left to the individual and God. IT IS A HEART ISSUE NOT A CHURCH GOVERNMENT ISSUE! If you base the amount of money that an individual gives on their devotion to God, I believe that some remedial day one ministry education is in order.

Blessings


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## TimV

I've been trying to figure out the legal implications for this scenario, which I more than suspect doesn't even remotely reflect the reality, especially if it's in the PCA, which I also doubt, especially since the Session seems to be large rather than one of those uncommon but not rare Sessions in the PCA where one or two young guys think they have dictatorial powers.

If the associate Pastor is an Elder, and member of the Session, I guess he could get "fired" in the sense that for one reason or another the Session could come up with an acceptable reason to terminate his pay. 

But I think that it would have to be a reason of finances or some such thing rather than a moral issue, as if it were a moral issue there would have to be, for a case of discipline, a rule that was violated and that there was no repentance of. And there is no such rule in the BCO as to the amount you have to tithe. And under the presented circumstances any sort of trial would result not in the guy's removal, but the Session getting thumped upside the head by the Presbytery. The guy would have so many reasons to file a formal complaint with the Session that even if one Elder had ever seen an episode of Law and Order on TV the Session wouldn't have taken any disciplinary action on the case, at least as it's presented, for fear of the Session's hide being publically nailed to the door.

But I realise this whole situation is largely hypothetical.



> In a slightly related question, is it ok for the session to ask the congregation to consider giving 11%? This has happened to me before. The reason they asked was because we were under budget.



Sure, as long as they don't say it's required by the church or the Bible. They can certainly ask for extra giving. But I doubt that members any congregation of any size in the PCA give 10% in any case. Even ten percent shouldn't be taught as anything more than a basic guideline as the giving laws in the OT are so complicated.


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