# Do true Christians sin?



## shackleton (Aug 6, 2007)

I hear some people say that a true Christian _will not_ sin, saying that if we go on sinning we are not truly saved, implying also that it is possible to not sin. 
In my own walk I am learning more and more everyday of my own sin and how hard it is to _not _sin, thus creating more of a dependance upon Christ as my mediator between myself and God. Sin creates a need that can only be met by Christ and his mediatoral work. Rather than getting better and better everyday (in the sense that I will not sin at all today) I am infact becoming more aware of the fruitlessness in thinking that I can obtain a sinless life. 
Anyway my question is, as Christians are we supposed to get to where we do not sin?


----------



## raderag (Aug 6, 2007)

shackleton said:


> I hear some people say that a true Christian _will not_ sin, saying that if we go on sinning we are not truly saved, implying also that it is possible to not sin.
> In my own walk I am learning more and more everyday of my own sin and how hard it is to _not _sin, thus creating more of a dependance upon Christ as my mediator between myself and God. Sin creates a need that can only be met by Christ and his mediatoral work. Rather than getting better and better everyday (in the sense that I will not sin at all today) I am infact becoming more aware of the fruitlessness in thinking that I can obtain a sinless life.
> Anyway my question is, as Christians are we supposed to get to where we do not sin?



The heretical idea that we can't sin is called "complete sanctification", AKA perfectionism.

We are given a new heart, but still have a sin nature. Our depravity remains total, in that every part of our being is touched by sin, yet God continues to "condemn sin in the flesh".

The problem here is to low of a view of sin. If we compare God's law, or Christ's righteousness, we always fall short and are thus sinners. If someone had a day without sinning, that would mean they had a day as righteous as a day in Christ's life. That is blasphemy. 

Anyway, what you are saying is exactly the perspective that a Christian should have about their own walk.


----------



## VirginiaHuguenot (Aug 6, 2007)

Donald Cargill, a Scottish Covenanter, once said, "Those who know themselves best fear themselves most." As Christians progress in their sanctification, and die more and more to ourselves and live more and more unto righteousness, we find that our hearts are blacker than we ever realized when we first cried out to God to save us. Though we have a new heart of flesh within us to replace that stony heart, Christians do continue to wrestle with sin (see the words of the Apostle Paul in Romans 7) and we must daily confess our sins seeking forgiveness in the name of our advocate, Christ Jesus (see 1 John 1.8-10), and we will not leave off this body of sin until we enter the presence of the Lord. 

You might enjoy reading Thomas Boston's _Human Nature in its Fourfold State_.


----------



## MrMerlin777 (Aug 6, 2007)

Do true Christians still sin?

Yes, at times we can fall into diverse sin. The Christian, however, will struggle against that sin and seek grace to not sin. Also if a true child of God continues in a season of sin he should expect eventual chastisement.

If we say we have no sin we decieve ourselves and the truth is not in us.


----------



## Blueridge Believer (Aug 6, 2007)

Any person who teaches sinless perfection is a heretic and I do mean a heretic. How many of the saints have fell victim to this nonsense? Spurgeon had some sound words for this:

Said the prince of preachers CH Spurgeon, "There are some professing Christians who can speak of themselves in terms of admiration; but, from my inmost heart, I loathe such speeches more and more every day that I live. Those who talk in such a boastful fashion must be constituted very differently from me. While they are congratulating themselves, I have to lie humbly at the foot of Christ's Cross, and marvel that I am saved at all, for I know that I am saved. I have to wonder that I do not believe Christ more, and equally wonder that I am privileged to believe in Him at all-to wonder that I do not love Him more, and equally to wonder that I love Him at all-to wonder that I am not holier, and equally to wonder that I have any desire to be holy at all considering what a polluted debased, depraved nature I find still within my soul, notwithstanding all that divine grace has done in me. If God were ever to allow the fountains of the great deeps of depravity to break up in the best man that lives, he would make as bad a devil as the devil himself is. I care nothing for what these boasters say concerning their own perfections; I feel sure that they do not know themselves, or they could not talk as they often do. There is tinder enough in the saint who is nearest to heaven to kindle another hell if God should but permit a spark to fall upon it. In the very best of men there is an infernal and well-nigh infinite depth of depravity. Some Christians never seem to find this out. I almost wish that they might not do so, for it is a painful discovery for anyone to make; but it has the beneficial effect of making us cease from trusting in ourselves, and causing us to glory only in the Lord."


----------



## MrMerlin777 (Aug 6, 2007)

Blueridge reformer said:


> Any person who teaches sinless perfection is a heretic and I do mean a heretic. How many of the saints have fell victim to this nonsense? Spurgeon had some sound words for this:
> 
> Said the prince of preachers CH Spurgeon, "There are some professing Christians who can speak of themselves in terms of admiration; but, from my inmost heart, I loathe such speeches more and more every day that I live. Those who talk in such a boastful fashion must be constituted very differently from me. While they are congratulating themselves, I have to lie humbly at the foot of Christ's Cross, and marvel that I am saved at all, for I know that I am saved. I have to wonder that I do not believe Christ more, and equally wonder that I am privileged to believe in Him at all-to wonder that I do not love Him more, and equally to wonder that I love Him at all-to wonder that I am not holier, and equally to wonder that I have any desire to be holy at all considering what a polluted debased, depraved nature I find still within my soul, notwithstanding all that divine grace has done in me. If God were ever to allow the fountains of the great deeps of depravity to break up in the best man that lives, he would make as bad a devil as the devil himself is. I care nothing for what these boasters say concerning their own perfections; I feel sure that they do not know themselves, or they could not talk as they often do. There is tinder enough in the saint who is nearest to heaven to kindle another hell if God should but permit a spark to fall upon it. In the very best of men there is an infernal and well-nigh infinite depth of depravity. Some Christians never seem to find this out. I almost wish that they might not do so, for it is a painful discovery for anyone to make; but it has the beneficial effect of making us cease from trusting in ourselves, and causing us to glory only in the Lord."


----------



## toddpedlar (Aug 6, 2007)

shackleton said:


> I hear some people say that a true Christian _will not_ sin, saying that if we go on sinning we are not truly saved, implying also that it is possible to not sin.
> In my own walk I am learning more and more everyday of my own sin and how hard it is to _not _sin, thus creating more of a dependance upon Christ as my mediator between myself and God. Sin creates a need that can only be met by Christ and his mediatoral work. Rather than getting better and better everyday (in the sense that I will not sin at all today) I am infact becoming more aware of the fruitlessness in thinking that I can obtain a sinless life.
> Anyway my question is, as Christians are we supposed to get to where we do not sin?



People who quote [bible] 1 John 3:6-9 [/bible] in order to prove that it's possible for a Christian to reach a point in his life at which he no longer sins clearly skipped over the earlier text in the same letter [bible] 1 John 1:8-10[/bible]...

John makes no qualification about when our sins need forgiveness, or when we shall still have sin in our lives. We shall always stand in need of Christ's blood covering our sins, past present and future.


----------



## sotzo (Aug 6, 2007)

Yes, true Christians sin...if they say they don't they are liars. (I John 1:8)

It is stupid and arrogrant to play such games when we have a God who is ready and willing to forgive repentent sinners.


----------



## Staphlobob (Aug 6, 2007)

VirginiaHuguenot said:


> As Christians progress in their sanctification, and die more and more to ourselves and live more and more unto righteousness, we find that our hearts are blacker than we ever realized when we first cried out to God to save us.



Very true. 

The man who discipled me once gave me a quote that I've always kept close at hand: "The sign of growing perfection, is growing awareness of imperfection."


----------



## Dieter Schneider (Aug 6, 2007)

We are no longer in sin, but there is still sin in us. The old Adam needs to be drowned, sin needs to be starved - daily! 
Yet there always is more mercy in Christ than there is sin is us. By looking to HIm the Christian avoids both extremes: pride (Legalism) and despair (Antinomianism). I have come across this quote (I paraphrase): "I am not what I was, I am not what I could be, I am not what I should be, and I am not what I will be, but I am what I am - by the grace of God." The blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin - past, present and future.


----------



## MrMerlin777 (Aug 6, 2007)

Dieter Schneider said:


> We are no longer in sin, but there is still sin in us. The old Adam needs to be drowned, sin needs to be starved - daily!
> Yet there always is more mercy in Christ than there is sin is us. By looking to HIm the Christian avoids both extremes: pride (Legalism) and despair (Antinomianism). I have come across this quote (I paraphrase): "I am not what I was, I am not what I could be, I am not what I should be, and I am not what I will be, but I am what I am - by the grace of God." The blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin - past, present and future.



That's a great statement! Who's it from?


----------



## Contra_Mundum (Aug 6, 2007)

Perfectionism is just the most insidious and evil system. Of course, no one is perfect in this life (and 1st John is the perfect Scripture to go to with reference to it), even the best of men fail to "love the Lord their God with ALL their heart" in their most holy achievements. So even the BEST we ever do is tainted by original and actual sin.

And then, since sin is inevitable, the Perfectionist finds new language to describe his moral failings--mistakes, errors of form, "whoops! hahaha", "if I'm mad, it MUST BE _righteous indignation_, cuz I don't sin," etc.

Now then, there is another place for folks who deny that Christians sin to end up, and that is denying Perseverance of the Saints. If Christians don't sin, but this fellow sins, then (in this view) either he wasn't a Christian, or he stopped being a Christian, and has to get it back. There are poor people on this yoyo until the string breaks.

YES, Christians sin. Its a terrible thing, since such sinning is so unnecessary, the slavery to the old master having been ended by a greater, divine power. But this is a GOSPEL truth, that we need the conviction of our present sin to keep us LOOKING unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith, the Perfecter of our salvation. The gospel isn't merely for that past Day of salvation, but for Today, the day of salvation, and Tomorrow.

Maranatha.


----------



## shackleton (Aug 6, 2007)

I came out of a strict Arminian church which taught that any little infraction would cause God to be angry, and one to lose their salvation. It has been lately that I have been told by Reformed people that quote 1 John 3:6 to say that if Christians sin maybe they are not saved. On the other hand, there are Reformed people who seem to act like they have a license to do almost anything because of grace. I guess the truth is somewhere in the middle.


----------



## MW (Aug 6, 2007)

shackleton said:


> I came out of a strict Arminian church which taught that any little infraction would cause God to be angry, and one to lose their salvation. It has been lately that I have been told by Reformed people that quote 1 John 3:6 to say that if Christians sin maybe they are not saved. On the other hand, there are Reformed people who seem to act like they have a license to do almost anything because of grace. I guess the truth is somewhere in the middle.



First John 3 is best understood as teaching believers do not sin with the full consent of their will.

Yes, regrettably reformed churches can suffer from this almost schizophrenic view of salvation -- saved by grace, show it by works. In reality we are saved by grace and we show it by grace; but it doesn't always come out sounding like that.


----------



## turmeric (Aug 6, 2007)

armourbearer said:


> First John 3 is best understood as teaching believers do not sin with the full consent of their will.
> 
> Yes, regrettably reformed churches can suffer from this almost schizophrenic view of salvation -- saved by grace, show it by works. In reality we are saved by grace and we show it by grace; but it doesn't always come out sounding like that.



You can say THAT again!


----------



## regener8ed (Aug 6, 2007)

It seems as though a lot of people are afraid that if they truly teach that salvation, as well as sanctification, are all of grace that men will use that grace as a license to sin. This discounts the fact that regeneration breaks the power of sin and that the Holy Spirit will not allow those that He indwells to continue in a lifestyle of sinfulness. The power of sin, which is DEATH, has been broken in God’s children. God’s children have been translated out of the realm of darkness into the realm of light. 

While on earth and in these corruptible bodies we will sin. Everything we do is tainted with it. Christians are no longer condemned for their sin because Jesus Christ fully and completely paid the penalty for it. 

Christians DESPISE their sin. If they were given the option to never sin again they would take it in a heartbeat. Anyone who WANTS to continue in sin is probably not a believer in the first place.


----------



## bookslover (Aug 6, 2007)

armourbearer said:


> In reality we are saved by grace and we show it by grace; but it doesn't always come out sounding like that.


----------



## BobVigneault (Aug 7, 2007)

Here is the commentary from the July 15, 2007 White Horse Inn program. I love the anecdote regarding Duke John's son:


> *
> Grace & Law*
> 
> We are in our year long series "A Time for Truth" and the heart of the truth that we're talking about in this particular section is sola gratia, grace alone. We've talked about sola Scriptura, Scripture alone, solo Christo, by Christ alone, and now we're taking up sola gratia, by grace alone.
> ...


----------



## turmeric (Aug 7, 2007)

Preach it, White Horse!


----------



## Semper Fidelis (Aug 7, 2007)

I always look forward to having Mike Horton put something in just the perfect way.


----------



## SemperWife (Aug 7, 2007)

Blueridge reformer said:


> Any person who teaches sinless perfection is a heretic and I do mean a heretic. How many of the saints have fell victim to this nonsense? Spurgeon had some sound words for this:
> 
> Said the prince of preachers CH Spurgeon, "There are some professing Christians who can speak of themselves in terms of admiration; but, from my inmost heart, I loathe such speeches more and more every day that I live. Those who talk in such a boastful fashion must be constituted very differently from me. While they are congratulating themselves, I have to lie humbly at the foot of Christ's Cross, and marvel that I am saved at all, for I know that I am saved. I have to wonder that I do not believe Christ more, and equally wonder that I am privileged to believe in Him at all-to wonder that I do not love Him more, and equally to wonder that I love Him at all-to wonder that I am not holier, and equally to wonder that I have any desire to be holy at all considering what a polluted debased, depraved nature I find still within my soul, notwithstanding all that divine grace has done in me. If God were ever to allow the fountains of the great deeps of depravity to break up in the best man that lives, he would make as bad a devil as the devil himself is. I care nothing for what these boasters say concerning their own perfections; I feel sure that they do not know themselves, or they could not talk as they often do. There is tinder enough in the saint who is nearest to heaven to kindle another hell if God should but permit a spark to fall upon it. In the very best of men there is an infernal and well-nigh infinite depth of depravity. Some Christians never seem to find this out. I almost wish that they might not do so, for it is a painful discovery for anyone to make; but it has the beneficial effect of making us cease from trusting in ourselves, and causing us to glory only in the Lord."



 Great quote!


----------



## SemperWife (Aug 7, 2007)

BobVigneault said:


> Here is the commentary from the July 15, 2007 White Horse Inn program. I love the anecdote regarding Duke John's son:



Another great quote.


----------



## Dieter Schneider (Aug 11, 2007)

MrMerlin777 said:


> Dieter Schneider said:
> 
> 
> > We are no longer in sin, but there is still sin in us. The old Adam needs to be drowned, sin needs to be starved - daily!
> ...



I am not entirely sure about the original source, but check here


----------



## Jerusalem Blade (Aug 12, 2007)

James, where's that Spurgeon quote from?


----------



## bfrank (Aug 17, 2007)

I joyfully concur...in the inner man...with the above postings regarding this issue.

So, short answer...of course we do...

Praise be to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ!


----------



## JM (Aug 18, 2007)

Wesley wrote: 



> I will endeavour to show what perfection is.
> 
> 1. And First, I do not conceive the perfection here spoken of, to be the perfection of angels. As those glorious beings never "left their first estate," never declined from their original perfection, all their native faculties are unimpaired: Their understanding, in particular, is still a lamp of light, their apprehension of all things clear and distinct, and their judgment always true. Hence, though their knowledge is limited, (for they are creatures) though they are ignorant of innumerable things, yet they are not liable to mistake: Their knowledge is perfect in its kind. And as their affections are all constantly guided by their unerring understanding, so all their actions are suitable thereto; so they do, every moment, not their own will, but the good and acceptable will of God. Therefore it is not possible for man, whose understanding is darkened, to whom mistake is as natural as ignorance; who cannot think at all, but by the mediation of organs which are weakened and depraved, like the other parts of his corruptible body; it is not possible, I say, for men always to think right, to apprehend things distinctly, and to judge truly of them. In consequence hereof, his affections, depending on his understanding, are variously disordered. And his words and actions are influenced, more or less, by the disorder both of his understanding and affections. It follows that no man, while in the body, can possibly attain to angelic perfection.
> 
> ...



Is there any critics on Wesley's brand of perfectionism?

Thanks.

j


----------



## Wannabee (Aug 18, 2007)

If anyone tells you he's perfect just whack him upside the head. When he reacts, tell him that you always wondered what the perfect reaction to that was. What you'll most likely get is a display of imperfection.


----------



## JM (Aug 18, 2007)

Is that what Wesley wrote?


----------



## Contra_Mundum (Aug 18, 2007)

Warfield wrote extensively critiquing perfectionism.


----------



## JM (Aug 18, 2007)

Thank you for the direction, I'll search out the works.


----------



## Contra_Mundum (Aug 18, 2007)

I would avoid dealing with the "Works" and first get hold of _*Perfectionism*_, by Benjamin Breckinridge Warfield, ed. by Samuel G. Craig, Presbyterian & Reformed, 1958, 1974 or any later printings. Contains 9 articles, which reduces the 1000 pages written by Warfield to a more manageable, and in the editor's view, the most enduringly important quantity of Warfield's contributions on the subject.


----------



## JM (Aug 18, 2007)

Sorry, I meant his I would look up his extensive works critiquing perfectionism.


----------

