# Who are the two witnesses in Revelation?



## shackleton (Jun 11, 2008)

With my new Preterist understanding of scripture I am now filled with questions. One is, who are the two witnesses? The traditional Dispensational understanding is that they are Moses and Enoch because they supposedly did not die.


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## Zenas (Jun 11, 2008)

Maybe I'm showing my ignorance about a subject here, but I thought Moses did die.


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## Kim G (Jun 11, 2008)

shackleton said:


> The traditional Dispensational understanding is that they are Moses and Enoch because they supposedly did not die.



I don't have an answer, but I grew up Dispensational and always heard a refutation of the belief that Enoch and Elijah (not Moses) were the two witnesses. They would say that the two witnesses seem to perform many of the miracles of Elijah (I would say, Elijah's God) but are not the same people. 

*end of interruption*


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## FenderPriest (Jun 11, 2008)

shackleton said:


> With my new Preterist understanding of scripture I am now filled with questions. One is, who are the two witnesses? The traditional Dispensational understanding is that they are Moses and Enoch because they supposedly did not die.



The two witnesses are a symbol for the Church. There is a need for two witnesses for a credible witness against an offending party, and the Church stands, bearing a true witness of Christ against the world. Also, if you'll notice in 11:4, they are said to be the lamp stands, which should key your thoughts back to Rev. 1 where the universal, complete church is symbolized as the 7 lamp stands.

EDIT:

Art Azurdia III's sermons will help you out on this section of The Revelation:
The Vindication Of God's Witnesses - Part 1
The Vindication Of God's Witnesses - Part 2
The Vindication Of God's Witnesses - Part 3
The Vindication Of God's Witnesses - Part 4


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## holyfool33 (Jun 11, 2008)

With Dispensationalists it's debatable as to who the two witnesses are. some hold to the view that the witnesses are Moses and Enoch. Others hold that it is Enoch and Elijah still others that it is two Jews in the Tribulation who are called and set apart by God to convert Jews and Gentiles. Then there is the whole argument as to the timing of when this is all spoused to happen. Some believe that it is during the first half of The Tribulation others the last half of The Tribulation but that's neither here nor there. I hold to the "two Jew" theory that it will be two Jews in the last half of The Tribulation before Christ returns. As far as who the two witnesses in Preterism in can be as far out as saying it is James and Peter others feel it was a group of christians or John The Baptist and Jesus.


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## RamistThomist (Jun 11, 2008)

Hannity and O'Reilly


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## caddy (Jun 11, 2008)

^
chuckling...


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## Hippo (Jun 11, 2008)

Reeve and Muggleton:

From English Dissenters: Muggletonians

"According to the Book of Revelations, Chapter XI, in the latter days God would appoint "two witnesses" who will preach to an ungodly world in preparation for the beginning of the final days. Reeve and Muggleton were celebrated as the "two witnesses" according to their followers."


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## shackleton (Jun 11, 2008)

Ivanhoe said:


> Hannity and O'Reilly



What about his greatness, Maha Rushie? Aseated atop his Attila the Hun chair?


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## Dwimble (Jun 11, 2008)

FenderPriest said:


> The two witnesses are a symbol for the Church. There is a need for two witnesses for a credible witness against an offending party, and the Church stands, bearing a true witness of Christ against the world. Also, if you'll notice in 11:4, they are said to be the lamp stands, which should key your thoughts back to Rev. 1 where the universal, complete church is symbolized as the 7 lamp stands.


That's my take on it. There are MANY things that I don't understand in Revelation, but that's one of the few things that has seemed pretty obvious to me for a long time.

When you take the view that scripture interprets scripture, I see attributing some sort of real-world individual identities to them as pure conjecture at best.


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## sastark (Jun 11, 2008)

The Word and the Sacraments is another view I've heard in addition to the Enoch and Elijah view.


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## jambo (Jun 11, 2008)

I do not believe the two witnesses are people but are in fact symbols of the church. 

Rev 11.3: The church has been given authority to preach (prophesy) and clothed in sacklocth indicates that sorrow and repentance for sin (cf Mt 28.18-20; Mt 5.4)

Rev 11.4: The two witnesses are described as olive trees and lampstands. this I think indicates peace and illumination. The church is a peaceful society and as the light of the world (Mt 5.9, 14-16; Rev 1) is there to provide illumination thought the preaching of the word

Rev 11.5: The church is indestructable and we can see the end of all who would want to destroy the church (Mt 15.16; Song 6.4)

Rev 11.7-10: Satan is the enemy of the church and this manifests itself in human rebellion. Laws and social trends are all adopted by humanity to limit and restrict and even destroy the church. (Although Ps 2 relates a conspiracy against the Lords anointed, there is that same hatred of the true church) It also pictures the mood of the non-Christian when they perceive the church to be "dead" that is ineffective and irrelevent.

Rev 11.11: A great revival to look forward to. This shows the origin of true revival (cf Ezek 37)

Like most passages in Revelation interpreting it is fraught with problems but this is my basic understanding and based on the principle of scripture interpreting scripture.


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## shackleton (Jun 11, 2008)

I had kind of gotten the impression that it referred to the church but had never heard anyone say that it was it could be.


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## D. Paul (Jun 11, 2008)

jambo said:


> I do not believe the two witnesses are people but are in fact symbols of the church.
> 
> Rev 11.3: The church has been given authority to preach (prophesy) and clothed in sacklocth indicates that sorrow and repentance for sin (cf Mt 28.18-20; Mt 5.4)
> 
> ...



I'm in no way disputing your answer but I must ask why then are there TWO witnesses when the church is only singular?

Ya' know, I've made this observation before but it is worth repeating: Reformed teaching is vastly different (and superior In my humble opinion) in so many regards compared to what is typically preached and swallowed in "preaching" today.


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## Dwimble (Jun 11, 2008)

D. Paul said:


> jambo said:
> 
> 
> > I do not believe the two witnesses are people but are in fact symbols of the church...
> ...



Where else are witnesses referred to in the scriptures? What do those passages say about witnesses? Where else are lampstands referred to? What is said about them there? Where else are olive trees referred to? What is said about them? In those places is the number two ever significant?

As a side note when considering Revelation...why are "Seven Spirits" and "Seven Spirits of God" mentioned multiple times? Do you think that means that there are actually seven spirits of God? Isn't God actually only one spirit?


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## sastark (Jun 11, 2008)

Dwimble said:


> As a side note when considering Revelation...why are "Seven Spirits" and "Seven Spirits of God" mentioned multiple times? Do you think that means that there are actually seven spirits of God? Isn't God actually only one spirit?



Interesting to note Isaiah 11:2...



> The *Spirit of the LORD* shall rest upon Him,
> The Spirit of *wisdom *and *understanding*,
> The Spirit of *counsel **and might*,
> The Spirit of *knowledge *and of *the fear of the LORD*.


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## Dwimble (Jun 11, 2008)

sastark said:


> Dwimble said:
> 
> 
> > As a side note when considering Revelation...why are "Seven Spirits" and "Seven Spirits of God" mentioned multiple times? Do you think that means that there are actually seven spirits of God? Isn't God actually only one spirit?
> ...


Good find. That illustrates my point very well.


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## D. Paul (Jun 11, 2008)

Dwimble said:


> D. Paul said:
> 
> 
> > jambo said:
> ...



Forgive me if I am dense, but what am I missing here? Are you asking these Q's or are you answering mine?


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## MW (Jun 11, 2008)

It is difficult to ignore the allusion to the letters to the churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia in these two witnesses. The revelation of Christ to Smyrna is that He was dead and is alive; the witnesses die and live again. To Philadelphia He is said to shut and no man opens; the witnesses have power to shut heaven that it rain not. Both churches are plagued by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are of the synagogue of Satan; the witnesses prophesy after the temple is measured (the true people of God), and the court is given to be trampled by the Gentiles (Jews who are not). Smyrna must be faithful unto death; the beast of the bottomless pit overcomes the two witnesses and kills them. Philadelphia will have her enemies to come and worship before her feet and be kept from the hour of temptation coming on the world; the witnesses stood on their feet and great fear fell upon them which saw them, and after they were ascended to heaven there was a great earthquake on earth. Such similarities suggest that the two witnesses are in fact an emblem of the faithful church maintaining the testimony of Jesus amidst faithless professors of Christ.


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## Presbyterian Deacon (Jun 11, 2008)

armourbearer said:


> It is difficult to ignore the allusion to the letters to the churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia in these two witnesses. The revelation of Christ to Smyrna is that He was dead and is alive; the witnesses die and live again. To Philadelphia He is said to shut and no man opens; the witnesses have power to shut heaven that it rain not. Both churches are plagued by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are of the synagogue of Satan; the witnesses prophesy after the temple is measured (the true people of God), and the court is gives to be trampled by the Gentiles (Jews who are not). Smyrna must be faithful unto death; the beast of the bottomless pit overcomes the two witnesses and kills them. Philadelphia will have her enemies to come and worship before her feet and be kept from the hour of temptation coming on the world; the witnesses stood on their feet and great fear fell upon them which saw them, and after they were ascended to heaven there was a great earthquake on earth. Such similarities suggest that the two witnesses are in fact an emblem of the faithful church maintaining the testimony of Jesus amidst faithless professors of Christ.




That's very interesting. So then, you're not saying the two witnesses are Smyrna and Philadelphia, but (which is how I first read your comment), but a picture of the characteristics of the faithful church as exemplified by those two assemblies?

Am I understanding this correctly?


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## MW (Jun 11, 2008)

Presbyterian Deacon said:


> So then, you're not saying the two witnesses are Smyrna and Philadelphia, but (which is how I first read your comment), but a picture of the characteristics of the faithful church as exemplified by those two assemblies?



That's correct; the seven churches themselves are used as a symbol of the universal church in 1:19-20. Regrettably commentators generally stop referring to the letters after chapter 4, but the reality is that these letters are a key to understanding the symbols used throughout the book.


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## Presbyterian Deacon (Jun 11, 2008)

Interesting approach. I've been trying to understand Revelation for quite some time. There was a time--when I was a dispensationalist, that I had it "all figured out," but in recent years, have come to know just how little I actually understand.

Would you please give me some other examples of how these seven letters relate to the latter portion of Revelation?

Thank you.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jun 11, 2008)

Ivanhoe said:


> Hannity and O'Reilly


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jun 11, 2008)

shackleton said:


> Ivanhoe said:
> 
> 
> > Hannity and O'Reilly
> ...



What say you Grymir?


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## staythecourse (Jun 11, 2008)

Since I am not amill but historic premill (Israel was the church and no unique dispensations) I still am convinced that the only two men who did not die yet and with it being appointed once for man to die...I still have Elijah and Enoch as the witnesses, and these two witnesses die.


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## D. Paul (Jun 11, 2008)

D. Paul said:


> Dwimble said:
> 
> 
> > D. Paul said:
> ...



Thanks to Rev Winzer, I think I see...


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## MW (Jun 11, 2008)

Presbyterian Deacon said:


> Would you please give me some other examples of how these seven letters relate to the latter portion of Revelation?



A few examples off the top of my head are the angels (messengers) of the churches, and reference later in the book to them being fellow-servants, and the instrumental importance placed on their actions towards the dispossession of the wicked in the seals, trumpets and vials. The obstacles facing the churches are often depicted in symbol later in the book: e.g., lying apostles correlate to the beast with two horns like a lamb; the woman Jezebel and the great whore; Sardis' undefiled garments and the importance of white robes; Laodicea's wealth and the fall of Babylon in mercantile terms; and most obvious of all, the promises to the overcomer and their consummation in various passages.


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## Presbyterian Deacon (Jun 11, 2008)

Rev Winzer, are there any commentaries on Revelation in print that you would recommend along this line of interpretation?


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## Grymir (Jun 12, 2008)

It will be Maha Rushie seated in his Attila the Hun chair with the Golden Microphone, pronouncing the Lord's Judgment on the Earth, with Dennis Miller taking the place of Snerdly!!

My exegesis leads me to think that it will be two people alive on the earth at that time whom He annoints. There is also a reference in Zach.

Enjoy - Grymir


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## Blue Tick (Jun 12, 2008)

> One is, who are the two witnesses?



Dave Hunt and Tim Lahaye...


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## MW (Jun 12, 2008)

Presbyterian Deacon said:


> are there any commentaries on Revelation in print that you would recommend along this line of interpretation?



Regrettably most technical commentators are fixated either on geographical, apocalyptic, or Greco-Roman backgrounds. Commentaries with a theological emphasis tend to be more helpful for this purpose. Hendriksen's More than Conquerors is generally considered a first reader towards understanding the structure of Revelation. William Milligan's Expositor's Commentary provides a few hints towards an ecclesial interpretation without giving a systematic presentation of the theme. Hoeksema's Behold He Cometh has a number of helpful "expositions;" and Rushdoonys Thy Kingdom Come is surprisingly helpful in this direction, especially his emphasis on the inheritance theme, although he grinds his usual axe against Statism.


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## Grymir (Jun 12, 2008)

Blue Tick said:


> > One is, who are the two witnesses?
> 
> 
> 
> Dave Hunt and Tim Lahaye...



Oh man, we're doomed! 

More than Conquerers is a great book!


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## Jerusalem Blade (Jun 12, 2008)

I agree on Wm. Hendriksen's _More Than Conquerors_, and also on Hoeksema's _Behold He Cometh_ -- these both excellent amil works, which do justice to the complexity of the symbolism in their expositions.

It took a long time for me to be corrected -- even while Reformed! -- from the dispensationalist-type literal interpretation, especially concerning the two witnesses. Hendriksen is a clear and potent antidote to this error.

Hardback: More Than Conquerors: William Hendriksen: Books


Paperback: More Than Conquerors: An Interpretation of the Book of Revelation, Commemorative Edition - By: William Hendriksen - Christianbook.com


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## holyfool33 (Jun 14, 2008)

Blue Tick said:


> > One is, who are the two witnesses?
> 
> 
> 
> Dave Hunt and Tim Lahaye...



If that's true take me now


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## D. Paul (Jun 16, 2008)

FenderPriest said:


> shackleton said:
> 
> 
> > Art Azurdia III's sermons will help you out on this section of The Revelation:
> ...


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