# Family Integrated Worship



## Kevin Lewis

I am curious to get some people's feedback on family integrated worship in churches. If your church is family integrated, what are some things you do to involve your children more. Thanks for any input.


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## jenney

This has been here since before Christmas and I thought someone would get at it, but since no one has, I will at least ask to clarify:

What is "family integrated worship"? Does that mean the whole family is together for the worship service?

What other kind of worship service is there? Would that mean nursery care for toddlers? Or something different, like the teens meet separately? I'm sorry I don't have a clear idea so that I can answer what we do!

You explain what you mean, and I'll try again!


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## LadyFlynt

I apologise...I did not see this. (Thank you, Jenney, for bumping it)

First of all, may I ask why the thumbs down in the title?


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## Herald

Our church debated this heavily about four years ago. At the time we decided against integrating worship. We have a nursery and childrens church. I am now changing my mind in respects to childrens church. Children should be with their parents during worship. Sure, five year olds are going to fidget, draw in coloring books and...well...act like five year olds. But they need to be under the influence of the word of God, not flannel graphs. 

I feel differently about nursery. Infants and some toddlers cannot function well in a worship service. The nursery doesn't necessarily need to be staffed. It could be on an "as needed" basis when crying cannot be controlled or a child is disruptive to the worship service. Instead of providing a staff that misses out on the preaching of God's word, parents can take their child into the nursery for as long as is needed. 

In summary, I would rather children be in the worship service with their family.


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## MrMerlin777

I grew up going to churches that separated the adults fom the youth from the children. The rationale was almost "state school" in scope. All it ended up doing really was dumbing down and stunting the growth of alot of the kids going. And in the case of the youth group (of which I was a part at the time) it became very nearly a "church within a church" senario where what the youth were learning at times didn't nessicarily always square with what the adults were learning. It was a mess.


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## crhoades

BaptistInCrisis said:


> Sure, five year olds are going to fidget, draw in coloring books and...well...act like five year olds.


 
Hopefully this won't derail the thread's purpose - too much - but could someone help me out? I have no kids so I haven't walked a mile in any parent's shoe...That being said, why are kids allowed to color in coloring books during worship? Why can't they just sit still and pay attention (or at least fake it?) Eyes forward, sit on the hands, etc. I haven't been 5 for a while so I admit I don't remember what it was like. 

What are the practical obstacles and are there practical means of helping the little critters out or is this acceptable and expected?


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## MrMerlin777

crhoades said:


> Hopefully this won't derail the thread's purpose - too much - but could someone help me out? I have no kids so I haven't walked a mile in any parent's shoe...That being said, why are kids allowed to color in coloring books during worship? Why can't they just sit still and pay attention (or at least fake it?) Eyes forward, sit on the hands, etc. I haven't been 5 for a while so I admit I don't remember what it was like.
> 
> What are the practical obstacles and are there practical means of helping the little critters out or is this acceptable and expected?



It took a bit of effort on my part because it divided my attention a bit, but when my son was small, if he was drawing I'd help him draw pictures dealing (on a child's level of course) with what was being said and what was going on. My son likes to sing so the singing in worship part wasn't hard. And we have prayer time at home so that wasn't partiularly hard for him to get either. It's mainly sitting and listening to someone talk in big words that he couldn't understand so to the best I could I'd help him draw things in pictures that aided his understanding of what was being said. Now my daughter has a different temperment. She's a bit of a "whiner" so if she get's out of hand I or my wife will remove her from the service and discipline if needed. But all in all she's starting to "get it" as well (as well as a six y/o can anyway).

(This brings somthing to my mind that is off thread but when you all pray pray for my 10y/o son. He has migrane and a few Sundays of late he's had to run to the gent's and throw up because of the pain. It's not a fun thing to have to watch believe me.)


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## ChristopherPaul

crhoades said:


> Hopefully this won't derail the thread's purpose - too much - but could someone help me out? I have no kids so I haven't walked a mile in any parent's shoe...That being said, why are kids allowed to color in coloring books during worship? Why can't they just sit still and pay attention (or at least fake it?) Eyes forward, sit on the hands, etc. I haven't been 5 for a while so I admit I don't remember what it was like.
> 
> What are the practical obstacles and are there practical means of helping the little critters out or is this acceptable and expected?



I wondered the same thing. My kids are not allowed to color/doodle/etc. They sit with hands on lap and participate or else we visit the van were the rod resides. They are also not allowed to sleep. If any of them dose off we make them stand up.

There was only one time since going to our new church back in September were I had to take my three year old out for discipline. Other than that one time they (my three oldest – 5, 4, & 3) all do well for morning and evening service. They enjoy opening the pew Bibles, Psalters, and hymnals (even if they are not on the right page) and participating with the congregation. 

Now my 17 month old is beginning her training. She usually needs taken out because she is too loud and disruptive. The new born just chills – all good.


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## toddpedlar

crhoades said:


> Hopefully this won't derail the thread's purpose - too much - but could someone help me out? I have no kids so I haven't walked a mile in any parent's shoe...That being said, why are kids allowed to color in coloring books during worship? Why can't they just sit still and pay attention (or at least fake it?) Eyes forward, sit on the hands, etc. I haven't been 5 for a while so I admit I don't remember what it was like.
> 
> What are the practical obstacles and are there practical means of helping the little critters out or is this acceptable and expected?



We have three little ones, 6, 4 and 20 months. Our youngest is actually the most difficult - squirmy, etc., in large part due to the fact that she normally naps at around 11, and our service begins at 10:30. All three love the singing, and are quiet during prayer times. During the sermon, the oldest generally either sits quietly, or, more recently, listens for things to write down - she's quite perceptive - the other day, she wrote down "it is finished" and "full atonement". Our middle one draws things - I haven't thought much about whether this is a problem or not. It's not disruptive, but I can understand the argument that it shouldnt' be allowed, since she's not fully attentive to what is being said. We're working on it.

The biggest HELP, though, I can discuss - family worship, family worship, family worship. There must be nothing better than this for training your children to be quiet and attentive on Sundays. We are far from "there", but we do see changes that stem from our worship times as a family. Our youngest has a blanket on which she is expected to sit (it's the "quiet blanket") and she does obey quite reasonably. The other two are squirming less and less as time goes on - but this, I think is the key... if you're not doing family worship in which the children are expected to be quiet and still, and participate... then I can't see how there's much hope for them acting appropriately in the corporate worship of the church.


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## ChristopherPaul

toddpedlar said:


> The biggest HELP, though, I can discuss - family worship, family worship, family worship. There must be nothing better than this for training your children to be quiet and attentive on Sundays. We are far from "there", but we do see changes that stem from our worship times as a family. Our youngest has a blanket on which she is expected to sit (it's the "quiet blanket") and she does obey quite reasonably. The other two are squirming less and less as time goes on - but this, I think is the key... if you're not doing family worship in which the children are expected to be quiet and still, and participate... then I can't see how there's much hope for them acting appropriately in the corporate worship of the church.



 

This is, by leaps and bounds, the best manner of training. I was putting my 17 month old down for bed before family worship, but lately I feel she needs to be with us (it is in fact "Family" worship). It has been difficult to communicate to her that we expect her to be quiet. For the past two weeks though she has been doing quite well.


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## polemic_turtle

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." Rom 13:14

I heard a pastor cite this once in regards to children being given material to quiet them and ensure that they will inevitably ignore God's word being preached.

I'm against the looseness I see in congregations; I think children used to be kept on much shorter leashes. As J. I. Packer said, they used to "~dress them like adults and they really were more mature~". I don't like to see children being foolish in congregational worship; the rod should be removing it far from them, in my opinion.

I am unlearned and inexperienced when it comes to raising children, but I know it's got to be some kind of a chore. I don't know how much harder it would be to raise your children like that today compared to back then, but I really appreciate the sight of anyone who tries to. Thank you.


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## LadyFlynt

Start from infancy (by keeping the child with you), take the child places with you that most might find a sitter for (restaurants), and simply just make it the way it is. Some children are more difficult than others though. I agree that family worship is also key. I don't like "children's church" or nurseries. I can see the use of a crying room though...a place for mothers to go with infants that are having a fit or to nurse the baby more comfortably (though I'm all for nursing an infant right in service as has been done throughout history).


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## jaybird0827

LadyFlynt said:


> Start from infancy (by keeping the child with you), take the child places with you that most might find a sitter for (restaurants), and simply just make it the way it is. Some children are more difficult than others though. I agree that family worship is also key. I don't like "children's church" or nurseries. I can see the use of a crying room though...a place for mothers to go with infants that are having a fit or to nurse the baby more comfortably (though I'm all for nursing an infant right in service as has been done throughout history).


 

 This is the usual practice in the PRC.


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## LadyFlynt

jaybird0827 said:


> This is the usual practice in the PRC.


One of the reasons it's worth the three hour drive.


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## Kevin Lewis

LadyFlynt said:


> I apologise...I did not see this. (Thank you, Jenney, for bumping it)
> 
> First of all, may I ask why the thumbs down in the title?



Sorry for the missunderstanding....that was not a thumbs down. I thought it was as question mark...like "here is a question for all of you". Poor eyesight in my old age. I will be more careful from now on.

We practice family integrated worship and love it by the way.


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## LadyFlynt

Fixed  

There are ppl that do have a serious problem with it. That is why I asked and just wanted to know what concerns there might have been. Thanks for clarification 

BTW, Welcome to the board, sir!


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## ChristopherPaul

LadyFlynt said:


> Fixed



I still see the red thumbs down.

(it looks so mean, make it go away)


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## crhoades

ChristopherPaul said:


> I still see the red thumbs down.
> 
> (it looks so mean, make it go away)


 
Sore thumb gone bye-bye.


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## Kevin Lewis

crhoades said:


> Sore thumb gone bye-bye.



Sorry everyone...didn't mean to start a red-thumb attack.


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## ChristopherPaul

crhoades said:


> Sore thumb gone bye-bye.


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## Robert Truelove

At Heritage Presbyterian Church we are family integrated. As a matter of fact, family integration is a distinction of my denomination.

Web Sites if interested...

Heritage Presbyterian Church
http://www.hpcministry.org

Article on Family Integration
http://www.hpcministry.org/article.php?ArticleID=21

Covenant Presbyterian Church
http://www.covenant-presbyterian.org


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## SRoper

Yeah thumbs down to family integrated worship! Boo!

Just kidding!

I do volunteer in the nursery, though (we provide childcare for those under four, everyone else is at the service). Does that make me an enabler?


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## Herald

crhoades said:


> Hopefully this won't derail the thread's purpose - too much - but could someone help me out? I have no kids so I haven't walked a mile in any parent's shoe...That being said, why are kids allowed to color in coloring books during worship? Why can't they just sit still and pay attention (or at least fake it?) Eyes forward, sit on the hands, etc. I haven't been 5 for a while so I admit I don't remember what it was like.
> 
> What are the practical obstacles and are there practical means of helping the little critters out or is this acceptable and expected?



Chris - I am going to defer to the parent on this. Some kids can sit quietly. Some kids can't. No too children are alike. Worship service isn't the time to have a drag out battle with a child to behave. If a parent can convice a child to pay attention...great! If they need a coloring book? Point me to the chapter and verse in the WCF or LBC that prohibits it. Not being sarcastic, just pro-parent!


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## polemic_turtle

"_and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof._" ;-)

That's about all we need, I think, but if you need more, just think about in terms of the RPW. Does the Bible authorize the use of art in order to pacify children during worship? I believe the burden of proof has been shifted, so I'd like to disappear now. g'bye!


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## Herald

polemic_turtle said:


> "_and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof._" ;-)
> 
> That's about all we need, I think, but if you need more, just think about in terms of the RPW. Does the Bible authorize the use of art in order to pacify children during worship? I believe the burden of proof has been shifted, so I'd like to disappear now. g'bye!



Cheap shot! It doesn't have to be "art" (if that is what you call a coloring book). Maybe the parent lets the kid twiddle his fingers...who knows? If the child is not being disruptive to others I have no problem with the parent excercising his or her authority with their child. It is enough that the child is with the parents and hearing God's word. As they mature they will listen more intently. I am reminded of a group of religious disciples who tried to chase a bunch of kiddies away from the One they were following. They thought the kiddies were bothering Him and not worthy of being seen. The One they were following had a different take. He warmly accepted these children for who they were. Some churches (you notice I am not saying "all churches") have become a place to be endured on Sundays. I know, this leads into a different topic for another thread but I can't help having a view of Jesus smiling on children. Or to be PB correct, smiling on "elect" children.


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## Pergamum

How do we inculcate reverance for worship without making them hate the negative stimuli? 

It sounds like some of you make your kids sit stock still with hands on lap for the whole service to their own fear without being allowed to color, etc. If done wrong, this could certainly make the kids hate going to church.

How do we not drive our kids away from worship?


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## LadyFlynt

Trevor, "it sounds like" is the presumption. I was not permitted to colour, play, eat, or sit with older couples like the other little girls. I still loved church. Yes, my children are expected to sit with their hands in their laps. They are expected to sit in front of their schoolwork throughout the week as well. They are expected to sit, pay attention, and participate in family worship. They will be expected to sit and listen at certain times throughout life. My baby is expected to make babbling sounds right now...or nap. My 3yr old is also expected to sit. Sometimes next to me and sometimes on my lap. She pays very good attention for a 3yr old. Occassionally she looks around at the other children, but not in a manner distracting to others...not talking or fussing or anything. She does occassionally play with my hands, my ring, my fingers (opening and closing them...like a normal three year old). She however, is sitting still and has not been given special items that she will later think is her due to distract her in service.

I will state, that there are some children that are so antsy, that they might NEED the distraction of a pictorial bible story book or other such. Usually this is short term till they outgrow a certain stage. The church can bear with these parents...the child is a child and will behave so until it clicks in what proper behaviour is. Therefore grace is given. Every child is different and some take longer to learn than others. But this doesn't mean we give up and outsource the responsibility to others.


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## jaybird0827

LadyFlynt said:


> Trevor, "it sounds like" is the presumption. I was not permitted to colour, play, eat, or sit with older couples like the other little girls. I still loved church. Yes, my children are expected to sit with their hands in their laps. They are expected to sit in front of their schoolwork throughout the week as well. They are expected to sit, pay attention, and participate in family worship. They will be expected to sit and listen at certain times throughout life. My baby is expected to make babbling sounds right now...or nap. My 3yr old is also expected to sit. Sometimes next to me and sometimes on my lap. She pays very good attention for a 3yr old. Occassionally she looks around at the other children, but not in a manner distracting to others...not talking or fussing or anything. She does occassionally play with my hands, my ring, my fingers (opening and closing them...like a normal three year old). She however, is sitting still and has not been given special items that she will later think is her due to distract her in service.
> 
> I will state, that there are some children that are so antsy, that they might NEED the distraction of a pictorial bible story book or other such. Usually this is short term till they outgrow a certain stage. The church can bear with these parents...the child is a child and will behave so until it clicks in what proper behaviour is. Therefore grace is given. Every child is different and some take longer to learn than others. But this doesn't mean we give up and outsource the responsibility to others.


 
Woo-hoooo! Yes! Our children are capable of much more and better than most of us give them credit for. Throw out the psychologists' counsel already.


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## crhoades

Thanks all for the practical answers and taking the time. I will confess sins of the heart. At restaurants, I will do my best not to sit next to a "quiver full, family integrated worship" family.  I like my steak in peace in quiet. 

(Please take that as a joke and not a slam...woke up snarky this morning)


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## tdowns

*lol Chris*

Chris, that is pretty funny, and also relevant. I have four kids. And due to finances rarely go out to eat as a family, but if we do, it's a family friendly restaurant. But it def. bothers me when on the rare occasion, my wife and I go to some nice restaurant, and someone has their disruptive children there...if you're going to include them, control them. 

I've seen this occasionally in church...if the child is a disruption, they need to leave the service in my opinion. (I'm not talking minor, all little ones will do some fidgeting. But I've seen kids getting up, walking around. And seemingly, the parents feel it's their right to stay in the church, movie, restaurant, etc...the whole time.) 

You make a good point, that many, "Kids have a right to be here." people, whether it's church or restaurants, don't have their kids under control...It really bugs me when parents let their kids walk around, disrupt, and make others uncomfortable because of their right to have their kids with them. Not that any here do that, sounds like all here have controlled kids. But it's worth a thought, that not all parents who take their kids everywhere have trained their children up properly.

In our culture where anything goes with kids and few are well trained, kids can def. be disruptive.

I'm a teacher, and more and more I'm bothered by the lack of discipline modern kids are exhibiting, and it's all due to the psycho-babble, never say no mentality....as these people (hopefully) enter into Integrated Family Worship settings, the leadership should have a plan to deal with it.

I could see having a short summary of the Church expectations of proper behavior of children in worship, so the new family understands, and feels comfortable, if their child is being disruptive, to get up and go to a separate cry-room.

Our church has the sermon broadcast in the cry-room.


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## toddpedlar

LadyFlynt said:


> Trevor, "it sounds like" is the presumption. I was not permitted to colour, play, eat, or sit with older couples like the other little girls. I still loved church. Yes, my children are expected to sit with their hands in their laps. They are expected to sit in front of their schoolwork throughout the week as well. They are expected to sit, pay attention, and participate in family worship. They will be expected to sit and listen at certain times throughout life. My baby is expected to make babbling sounds right now...or nap. My 3yr old is also expected to sit. Sometimes next to me and sometimes on my lap. She pays very good attention for a 3yr old. Occassionally she looks around at the other children, but not in a manner distracting to others...not talking or fussing or anything. She does occassionally play with my hands, my ring, my fingers (opening and closing them...like a normal three year old). She however, is sitting still and has not been given special items that she will later think is her due to distract her in service.
> 
> I will state, that there are some children that are so antsy, that they might NEED the distraction of a pictorial bible story book or other such. Usually this is short term till they outgrow a certain stage. The church can bear with these parents...the child is a child and will behave so until it clicks in what proper behaviour is. Therefore grace is given. Every child is different and some take longer to learn than others. But this doesn't mean we give up and outsource the responsibility to others.




These are good thoughts. We have to recognize that children are all at different stages, just as their parents are. Children aren't going to be perfect worshippers while very young, and neither are we - take a look at Richard Steele's "A Remedy for Wandering Thoughts in Worship" if you think that your ability to pay attention in worship is "good". If you're anything like me, you'll find that there is probably as much to work on for you as there is (with obvious differences based on age difference and maturity in the faith) for the children. The difficulty is often that with the kids, evidence of their distraction is MUCH more overt.

We have to be careful to have age-appropriate expectations for our children - not to say that our expectations should match those of the world, may it never be! My four year old is quite simply not going to be held to the same standards as she will be when she becomes a young woman of 15 years. For some children this means they will need to occupy their hands with a pencil and paper or in some other quiet activity. We should also take note (as Jay noted) that our children gain a great deal from observing us in worship, and by participating as much through their quiet presence with us as anything else, and simply by hearing the word preached, even if they aren't following every nuance and argument.


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## LadyFlynt

Chris, I'm sorry you choose not to sit next to these ppl...you might be surprised. When we walk into a restaurant...say an Olive Garden (my kids love the OG)...I can read ppl's faces. The "oh, no...they have a passel of kids, there goes our nice meal" It hurts. We sit down, we eat, my children behave. As those that were there walked in get up to leave, I usually end up with 1-3 elderly ladies stop at our table on the way out the door to tell me that they were pleased with how well behaved my children were or that they hardly knew they were there. Many times, the child screaming is a family in the corner with one child that most ppl never even thought there would be a problem with. 

1 child, 2 child, 6 children...doesn't matter. The training and the individual child does. The issue is PARENTS willing and doing the training, others being patient during the training (for some of these families, based on the child, according to Trevor Downs would NEVER be in service...that does not do any service to the parents or the training of their children. Yes, a parents may have to remove a child, but to bann the child or the parents altogether is wrong. A child will learn in time. Now I agree, if a family is letting a child roam from pew to pew, there is a problem. I have seen that also...in that case, someone needs to speak to the parents.

Trevor, I did like what you had to say about psychobabble...ITA! That is much of our problems in child training today.


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## LadyFlynt

Todd, excellent. My children actually help me keep my mind on the sermon more. I have an active mind that can go 10 different directions at once...even in my sleep. Knowing that I will have to speak with my hubby and children about the service later helps. Expecting my children to attempt to pay attention also helps hold me to the same standard.


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## ChristopherPaul

Ditto to Todd and Colleen.

We simply train them in the way they should go.

We must be careful not to cater to our children as if they are so delicate we will destroy their future by requiring them to learn to participate (mentally and physically) in church. As Todd said, sure they will not be perfect worshipers nor will we, but we still insist on obedience and respect for the church and our attention on our Lord.

We require them to be still and pay attention in other settings and likewise and especially will so for the Assembly of God’s people.

The world likes to insist on giving the children as many choices as possible and keeping them comfortable and building up self-esteem, etc. This is the mentality we have to be mindful of. God’s way is perfect; we should be careful not too think too hard about what might happen if we insist on demanding that our children fear the Lord and obey all that He commanded.


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## crhoades

LadyFlynt said:


> Chris, I'm sorry you choose not to sit next to these ppl...you might be surprised. When we walk into a restaurant...say an Olive Garden (my kids love the OG)...I can read ppl's faces. The "oh, no...they have a passel of kids, there goes our nice meal" It hurts. We sit down, we eat, my children behave. As those that were there walked in get up to leave, I usually end up with 1-3 elderly ladies stop at our table on the way out the door to tell me that they were pleased with how well behaved my children were or that they hardly knew they were there. Many times, the child screaming is a family in the corner with one child that most ppl never even thought there would be a problem with.
> 
> 1 child, 2 child, 6 children...doesn't matter. The training and the individual child does. The issue is PARENTS willing and doing the training, others being patient during the training (for some of these families, based on the child, according to Trevor Downs would NEVER be in service...that does not do any service to the parents or the training of their children. Yes, a parents may have to remove a child, but to bann the child or the parents altogether is wrong. A child will learn in time. Now I agree, if a family is letting a child roam from pew to pew, there is a problem. I have seen that also...in that case, someone needs to speak to the parents.
> 
> Trevor, I did like what you had to say about psychobabble...ITA! That is much of our problems in child training today.


 
Like I said, it was joking. Our church is full of wonderful families who have trained their children well. It truly has given us hope. As far as restaurants go, I'd rather sit next to a large family than smokers, and the unbehaved of all ages. Yes it isn't the number or the age but the godliness exhibited. 

Probably shouldn't have joked about this. I know this is something you've had to defend on more than one occasion and it is a very serious matter. Please forgive me if I've given offense. Thank you for a great example to the watching world.


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## LadyFlynt

Chris, I'm sorry, I misunderstood. I didn't take it as a slam, but I thought you were serious about avoiding large families in a restaurant. 

Really, the worse are waitresses. We've had some avoid us and refuse to do their job when we've been at their table, due to the assumption that there will be alot of work and little tip for them. For the most part I try to keep the table as neat as possible and stack things for the waitresses...and those waitresses that give us the attention, treat the children like equally special guests in the restaurant, and are conversational...I tip very well. (I've been a waitress)


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## Pergamum

My experience with family-integrated churches is this:

Many of the families are very orderly. But many spent a lot (I mean a lot) of time during service doing family stuff and it is hard to pay attention in worship. These churches wouldn't even have a cry room, because the babies must eventually learn.

I am all for the general idea, but it often gets way overboard. At one church I went to even minor differences in how to raise kids became moral issues and parents were confronted. Another time a baby screamed for 15 minutes straight and the parents wouldn't budge but sat through the service and it was hard to concentrate. They were meeting in a church that already had a cry room with speakers in it - so they would not have missed the service at all, but only stayed in the service due to principle or peer pressure.

Other times I have went to the post-service meals and the topics were very narrow...almost like a cult of homeschooling. Minor differences in schooling or discipline did not stay minor differences. Letting your kids color became almost a sin issue.


I agree largely with every post here, but I just don't others views of permissible and bad parenting be forced on me. It seems that there a broad range of parenting styles and kid perosnalities and many of the family integrated folks try to make things overly black and white.


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## LadyFlynt

It's true that there are some groups that go overboard and are controlling rather than graceful and encouraging. However, you can't toss out the entirety, the concept, or others that practice such because of the few rotten apples. Or else you need to toss out every church and family pre-Finneyism.


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## Robert Truelove

While our church is family integrated, we are not like what you are describing (and I understand you are not lumping all of us together). 

I agree with your thoughts and concerns in every respect. Churches that make all of the little details a manner of gaining the 'inner circle' are definitely NOT want I want Heritage Presbyterian Church to be about.



trevorjohnson said:


> My experience with family-integrated churches is this:
> 
> Many of the families are very orderly. But many spent a lot (I mean a lot) of time during service doing family stuff and it is hard to pay attention in worship. These churches wouldn't even have a cry room, because the babies must eventually learn.
> 
> I am all for the general idea, but it often gets way overboard. At one church I went to even minor differences in how to raise kids became moral issues and parents were confronted. Another time a baby screamed for 15 minutes straight and the parents wouldn't budge but sat through the service and it was hard to concentrate. They were meeting in a church that already had a cry room with speakers in it - so they would not have missed the service at all, but only stayed in the service due to principle or peer pressure.
> 
> Other times I have went to the post-service meals and the topics were very narrow...almost like a cult of homeschooling. Minor differences in schooling or discipline did not stay minor differences. Letting your kids color became almost a sin issue.
> 
> 
> I agree largely with every post here, but I just don't others views of permissible and bad parenting be forced on me. It seems that there a broad range of parenting styles and kid perosnalities and many of the family integrated folks try to make things overly black and white.


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## Kevin Lewis

*Thanks*

Thanks for all of the replies everyone. I appreciate the input. Keep them coming.


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## jenney

We don't expect ours under about two to be able to sit through the service and we don't start training them to sit there until then. We take them with us to worship. When they fuss as newborns, they are usually hungry or wanting to be rocked, so i'll take them out and feed them or walk them around until they settle. When they fuss as older babies, I take them out and sit with them in the nursery. Some of mine have started to want the nursery (because of the fun toys) around 18 months and so I stop sitting with them there and keep them on my lap or in my arms someplace where they aren't being rewarded with toys for being disruptive in the service, but where no one in the service can hear them. Not all my children are smart enough to make the connection, but we've made the choice to remove the nursery option at about 18 months. From then until about two, we just take them out if they are too squirmy. Around two we start seriously training them to *sit*. 

They are expected to sit still in family devotions and in church. Not all at once, but our goal has been to have them able to sit, awake, through the entire service (about two hours) by the time they are three years old. So far we've managed that with the first five.

Unlike some of the other parents here, I do let the littler ones color. Here's my rationale: the children who are old enough to write take notes on the sermon and we discuss it later in the day. The younger ones want to do like the big girls do and take notes, but they can't read and write yet. So I give them a notebook and tell them to take their own notes and they color in the notebook. They want to participate in the family discussion of the sermon later, so they are encouraged, when they can write, to take their own notes. Once they are _able_ to take notes, we disallow coloring.

And. When I say coloring, I mean drawing and pretend-writing. Sometimes I'll write the main text in big letters and they'll copy it. But mostly I leave them to themselves. They aren't allowed to draw during hymns or prayers or the Lord's Table or testimonies or baptism or anything but the sermon because it is "practice" for note-taking during the sermon. They don't get markers, crayons, coloring books, scissors, etc. Just a notebook and a pen.

that's what we do.


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## Kevin Lewis

*Good idea*

Jenny,

I appreciate your thoughtful reply. Those are good ideas and I think they draw a balance between teaching them at the appropriate time and giving some grace when they are 18 months and younger. I think we do need to consider many factors around us in the training of our children. Thanks


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## Kevin Lewis

*Bump*

Bump


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