# Trying to make a decision on seminary: WTS, CTS, or CTS



## athanatos (Mar 23, 2011)

Hey, I realize this is my first post, so I will introduce myself elsewhere soon.

In my junior year at Central Michigan Uni I felt God was calling me to seminary, for the purpose of teaching (Masters of Theo Studies is one option). I actually went from computer science to family studies (and counseling), and then changed again to a psychology and philosophy double-major. I was involved with campus ministry in part, then I was put into the position of director of college ministry for my church (a local baptist variety), and I've since graduated. Being involved in such a capacity, my heart grew for students all the more. I don't know if I could willingly bow out of the level of activity in a church. The last 8 months I have been involved with college ministry as volunteer staff for Campus Crusade for Christ.

So, I've been saving up for seminary, active in the ministry, seeing a lot of growth. I am looking forward to seminary this Fall. I applied to Calvin Seminary, Covenant Seminary, and Westminster Seminary (PA). I have been accepted to both CTS's for their MTS/MAET, but haven't heard back anything yet from WTS except that they received my app and it'll take a while (they still haven't cashed the check for the app fee).

Now it is getting down to the wire and I still don't know where to go. I've been praying, I've been talking with a lot of people about it (elders, peers, even faculty), and it is getting frustrating not being decisive. Here's my hang-up:
I don't know if I am focusing on minor issues and blowing them out of proportion, I don't know if I am not taking the issues seriously. I want a tight, Reformed (covenant theology) school, with some good academic reputation to allow for for Ph.D work afterward, and a good program for learning the languages and get a good sys theology.

Calvin was my top priority for over a year (I check out their campus in Oct '09) because of overall cost, location (it is 2 hr from home, family, friends, and my girlfriend -- I am not married or engaged), strong reformed stance, and all the fun stuff (beautiful campus, awesome library, reputation, etc.). Why it has dropped down on my list is this: I had been reading up on the CRC (part of the opinions expressed were from posters on this site!) and I'm not liking where they are headed. Ordination of women, Belhar confession, and bringing to the table things that, while important to discuss, are really not things we can fudge on. While you don't have to be CRC to enroll, I am not sure what significance it is if I am led to change to the M.Div and would be ordained in the CRC.

Westminster was on my radar back in '09 too. Being 12hr away and near a large, historical city isn't bad in my book. I really liked it there when I visited in March of '10. Nothing I disliked about the seminary, but it did cost more and was much farther away. (I didn't have a girlfriend at the time either, so now the 12 hr feels less appealing) ... I feel like ruling out WTS _for now_, thinking that it would definitely be an excellent school to go for a Ph.D.

Covenant was on back burner for me originally because their tuition was by far the highest (when in reality, their overall costs put together are just a little more than Calvin, and a bit less than WTS), I never checked out their campus in person, and it was pretty far away in a city I've never visited or really had an interest in. But I had been aware of them because of their free online courses, which I've taken (four?) and found were pretty tight. They are PCA, so similar content as WTS with a theologically conservative stance, but closer by a little bit, a little less costly, and has already accepted me.


Now, there are a lot more factors at play here. But money, distance from anyone I know, theological orientation, recommendation of my pastor/elders, all factor in.

In one sense, I want to see what you all think of these schools (Calvin, Covenant, and Westminster-PA, but also if you might gather that I am putting too much emphasis on minor things and should give weight to other issues. I appreciate any and all feedback.

- Jonathanatos


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## devonturnbaugh (Mar 23, 2011)

Jonathan, welcome to PB. I am also a reformed baptist and went through a similar issue of choosing a school as you have. I live in STL and ended up choosing to go to Covenant based on theology, proximity, and overall appreciation for staff. I looked at both westminster and at calvin as well as the major baptist seminaries before landing up with Covenant. Also if you are a reformed baptist you will find, at least in my dealings with them, that they are very friendly and have a high percentage of them enrolled. Honestly for us(my wife and two children) one of the biggest factors was proximity to church family and friends. Also STL is a beautiful place with lots of fun stuff. Hope this was somewhat helpful.


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## Jack K (Mar 23, 2011)

Calvin Seminary is not only part of the CRC but is on the more liberal edge of the CRC. Some segments of that denomination (like the misions agencies) remain fairly conservative. But the seminary, and for sure the college and publications, are generally considered to be closer to the liberal wing of the denomination. So you are wise to consider this carefully before enrolling at Calvin.

If your theology is conservative and you ultimately were ordained in the CRC, again you might find yourself in tension with that denomination, especially in some classes. I know conservative pastors who really struggle there, although some end up hunting out a conservative classis and/or church and remain fairly happy. Just be aware of this going in.

By general reputation within the Reformed community, I think you'd find both Westminster Philly and Covenant to be solid schools, even though each would probably have a handful of detractors on this board for some reason or another.


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## KSon (Mar 23, 2011)

athanatos said:


> Westminster was on my radar back in '09 too. Being 12hr away and near a large, historical city isn't bad in my book. I really liked it there when I visited in March of '10. Nothing I disliked about the seminary, but it did cost more and was much farther away. (I didn't have a girlfriend at the time either, so now the 12 hr feels less appealing) ... I feel like ruling out WTS _for now_, thinking that it would definitely be an excellent school to go for a Ph.D.
> 
> - Jonathanatos


 
Boy, the opportunity to study under Beale and Trueman would be hard to pass up if I were in a different season of life. Didn't get a chance to study under Beale while he was 20 minutes away in Wheaton.


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## N. Eshelman (Mar 23, 2011)

Since you are so close to Grand Rapids, why don't you look at Puritan Reformed Seminary? There are a number of Reformed Baptists that study there and there are a number of visiting professors who are Baptist as well. 

If you have questions about PRTS, let me know.


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## iainduguid (Mar 23, 2011)

You mentioned that you hadn't heard about acceptance yet from Westminster. I wouldn't sweat that too much. If you have a gpa over 2.0 (and often even less) and have the funds, you will usually be accepted by most seminaries (unless one of your references thinks you might be an axe-murderer). 

For what it's worth, my son is at Westminster in Philadelphia and is loving it.

Iain Duguid


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## Bookmeister (Mar 23, 2011)

I spent 30 years in Stl and for what it's worth I moved to Jackson, MS to go to seminary. RTS Jackson is a great school. I also concur with Nathan, if distance is a big issue you can't go wrong with PRTS.

I am now in the URC and spent some time in the CRC. I would cross Calvin off your list. It has a reformed name but in practice is Mainline liberal.


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## fredtgreco (Mar 23, 2011)

Another option that is not too far from where you are is Mid America Seminary in Dyer, IN.

I am also an RTS Jackson grad, and think that is worth checking out.


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## athanatos (Mar 23, 2011)

devonturnbaugh said:


> Jonathan, welcome to PB.


Thanks 


devonturnbaugh said:


> I am also a reformed baptist and went through a similar issue of choosing a school as you have. I live in STL and ended up choosing to go to Covenant based on theology, proximity, and overall appreciation for staff. I looked at both westminster and at calvin as well as the major baptist seminaries before landing up with Covenant. Also if you are a reformed baptist you will find, at least in my dealings with them, that they are very friendly and have a high percentage of them enrolled. Honestly for us(my wife and two children) one of the biggest factors was proximity to church family and friends. Also STL is a beautiful place with lots of fun stuff. Hope this was somewhat helpful.


Thanks. As far as being baptist, I am starting to shy away and head more Presbyterian. I am also vehemently against strong Dispensational schools, like Dallas. Grand Rapids (seminary of Cornerstone) also has a Dispensational tradition, so I want to avoid them too. My hang-up is that I am not sure if I am giving the wrong things weight -- allowing women ordination, dispensationalist theology, proximity to family and friends?

Meanwhile, all three of the seminaries have been extremely friendly, welcoming and encouraging.



Jack K said:


> Calvin Seminary is not only part of the CRC but is on the more liberal edge of the CRC. Some segments of that denomination (like the misions agencies) remain fairly conservative. But the seminary, and for sure the college and publications, are generally considered to be closer to the liberal wing of the denomination. So you are wise to consider this carefully before enrolling at Calvin.
> 
> If your theology is conservative and you ultimately were ordained in the CRC, again you might find yourself in tension with that denomination, especially in some classes. I know conservative pastors who really struggle there, although some end up hunting out a conservative classis and/or church and remain fairly happy. Just be aware of this going in.


I was told by my PCA friend that being ordained CRC would be accepted by PCA were I to enter into pastoral ministry, and that bit of info only reinforces my hunch that I am complaining about Calvin. I also heard that CTS is not necessarily representative of CRC; and vice versa, thus allowing the seminary to float above a lot of these nasty fights and just give some good, straight education.



> By general reputation within the Reformed community, I think you'd find both Westminster Philly and Covenant to be solid schools, even though each would probably have a handful of detractors on this board for some reason or another.


That was my hunch.



KSon said:


> athanatos said:
> 
> 
> > Westminster was on my radar back in '09 too. Being 12hr away and near a large, historical city isn't bad in my book. I really liked it there when I visited in March of '10. Nothing I disliked about the seminary, but it did cost more and was much farther away. (I didn't have a girlfriend at the time either, so now the 12 hr feels less appealing) ... I feel like ruling out WTS _for now_, thinking that it would definitely be an excellent school to go for a Ph.D.
> ...


That's another point: I am not familiar enough with many of their faculty to know which is best staffed.



nleshelman said:


> Since you are so close to Grand Rapids, why don't you look at Puritan Reformed Seminary? There are a number of Reformed Baptists that study there and there are a number of visiting professors who are Baptist as well.
> 
> If you have questions about PRTS, let me know.


I believe I did take a look at them. They are a bit small and don't have a big reputation. Not that reputation is everything, I _am_ thinking about how MTS is a stepping stone for Ph.D, and I want to get into a good program.



iainduguid said:


> You mentioned that you hadn't heard about acceptance yet from Westminster. I wouldn't sweat that too much. If you have a gpa over 2.0 (and often even less) and have the funds, you will usually be accepted by most seminaries (unless one of your references thinks you might be an axe-murderer).
> 
> For what it's worth, my son is at Westminster in Philadelphia and is loving it.
> 
> Iain Duguid


Yeah, I have yet found nothing wrong with WTS, except I heard a while back they had some issues with faculty or something. In any case, no response, distance, and cost are the only things discouraging me from going there this Fall.



Bookmeister said:


> I spent 30 years in Stl and for what it's worth I moved to Jackson, MS to go to seminary. RTS Jackson is a great school. I also concur with Nathan, if distance is a big issue you can't go wrong with PRTS.
> 
> I am now in the URC and spent some time in the CRC. I would cross Calvin off your list. It has a reformed name but in practice is Mainline liberal.


As far as distance is concerned, I was hoping I could drive home in a single day, even if it didn't mean I would be able to come home (mt. pleasant) on weekends. That doesn't matter that much to me. Meanwhile, my gf really doesn't want me to go away, which is making it hard. I am giving it weight, I just don't want to give it _too much_ weight.



fredtgreco said:


> Another option that is not too far from where you are is Mid America Seminary in Dyer, IN.
> 
> I am also an RTS Jackson grad, and think that is worth checking out.


I checked out MidA sem and RTS, and I opted out of both for the same reason (given above) as skipping out on RPTS.

Anyone have a feeling I am missing some piece here? Like, that I am not giving some weight to some important factor, or that I am caring about things that won't matter when I am studying/after I graduate the program?
----edit-----
I wonder if a better way of wording this would be, for those who would seek seminary, how might you decide/by what criteria would you make your final decision? what factors would you take into account?


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## Covenant Joel (Mar 23, 2011)

athanatos said:


> I checked out MidA sem and RTS, and I opted out of both for the same reason (given above) as skipping out on RPTS.



RTS is not a small seminary with limited reputation. It's the largest Reformed seminary in the States (campuses in Orlando, Jackson, Charlotte, D.C., Atlanta, Virtual). I've known people to go into Ph.D. program at Calvin, Westminster, Wheaton, and another guy at Princeton for a Th.M. after RTS, if that's what you're concerned about.


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## Quatchu (Mar 23, 2011)

I have to agree with Jeol. RTS is far from a small school and reputation wise probable one of the best reformed schools in North America and i would be surprised if it was not one of the best in the world.


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## athanatos (Mar 23, 2011)

Covenant Joel said:


> RTS is not a small seminary with limited reputation. It's the largest Reformed seminary in the States (campuses in Orlando, Jackson, Charlotte, D.C., Atlanta, Virtual). I've known people to go into Ph.D. program at Calvin, Westminster, Wheaton, and another guy at Princeton for a Th.M. after RTS, if that's what you're concerned about.


Wow, I appear to have misunderstood them when I researched them before. I knew they had a lot of different campuses; maybe I was just looking at a particular one which was small. As far as reputation, apparently I did downplay it. I apologize.
---edit---
Now I remember. I did consider them seriously before, but I dropped them when I realized I did not want to be displaced that distance. Reputation did not seem huge to me, though. So maybe that was my own ignorance. Meanwhile, it looks like they have changed their website from a white, silver and grey, to a brown, red and black.


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## mjmacvey (Mar 23, 2011)

Jonathan,

Given your possible goal of doing PhD work, I think WTS is the best option among those that you listed. That is not to say that you can't go on to do post-graduate work with a degree from the others (or RTS as has been mentioned), but you will be best equipped to do so with the Westminster degree. 

I am not sure if you have explored/considered Westminster Seminary California at all, but I would be happy to answer any questions you have. Though we are a bit smaller than our mother seminary (WTS), we have sent a good number of graduates on to do PhD work in Biblical Studies, Systematic Theology and Historical Theology (I can send you a list if you are interested). We are still accepting applications for the Summer/Fall and we still have plenty of financial aid left as well. Contact me if I can help.

---------- Post added at 06:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:46 PM ----------

I forgot to mention that we have a cooperative relationship with the Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies (and quite a few reformed baptist students at WSC). I would encourage you to contact Dr. Jim Renihan if you have questions about this program.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Mar 23, 2011)

If Jackson, Mississippi was too far for him I don't think Escondido is closer.


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## Pilgrim (Mar 23, 2011)

The consideration of what school to take the M.A. from could depend on where you'd anticipate doing your Ph.D. Others will be more familiar with the landscape, but if you anticipate doing Ph.D. studies at a Reformed school as opposed to a secular school, any of the above mentioned seminaries would probably be fine provided they have the program you're looking for. I think some would advise going to a more solid school theologically at the Master's level so that you will have a solid foundation.


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## Damon Rambo (Mar 24, 2011)

Sorry, but I have to do this...

You are Reformed [email protected]!!W The Premier (in my opinion) Seminary in the Country is only 7 hours south of you! Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, man, in Louisville. Al Mohler, Bruce Ware, Don Whitney, Russell Moore, Kevin Smith...not to mention guest lecturers like R.C. Sproul, Ligon Duncan, Mark Dever...

O.K. Rant completed. Carry on.


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## DMcFadden (Mar 25, 2011)

Unless you are unusually discriminating and solid, Calvin would be a mistake in my opinion.

I echo the sentiment that Westminster (either one) would be a solid preparation for PhD work.

If you want to do teaching, seminaries tend to prefer a terminal degree from a university and sometimes look down on a PhD awarded by a seminary. With that in mind, you want a VERY solid theological foundation, not one that leaves you uncertain as you enter the PhD phase.

Some of my classmates went on to do their PhD work in major universities after their "cafeteria" theological education (e.g, lack of a unified theological position by professors, more emphasis upon the questions than the answers, and a general "on the one hand . . . on the other hand" approach to basic questions). The result was not just "leaning" left, it was drowning in it. One of my brightest "evangelical" classmates came back from PhD work claiming that Jesus had no idea that he was God. An intern of mine blurted out in class: "Didn't Peter . . . like 'tip him off' at Caesarea Philippi?"


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## athanatos (Mar 25, 2011)

Pilgrim said:


> The consideration of what school to take the M.A. from could depend on where you'd anticipate doing your Ph.D. Others will be more familiar with the landscape, but if you anticipate doing Ph.D. studies at a Reformed school as opposed to a secular school, any of the above mentioned seminaries would probably be fine provided they have the program you're looking for. I think some would advise going to a more solid school theologically at the Master's level so that you will have a solid foundation.


Above mentioned -> by other posters, me, or both?



DMcFadden said:


> Unless you are unusually discriminating and solid, Calvin would be a mistake in my opinion.


I know a lot of people are saying this, but why would you hold that opinion?



> I echo the sentiment that Westminster (either one) would be a solid preparation for PhD work.
> 
> If you want to do teaching, seminaries tend to prefer a terminal degree from a university and sometimes look down on a PhD awarded by a seminary. With that in mind, you want a VERY solid theological foundation, not one that leaves you uncertain as you enter the PhD phase.
> 
> Some of my classmates went on to do their PhD work in major universities after their "cafeteria" theological education (e.g, lack of a unified theological position by professors, more emphasis upon the questions than the answers, and a general "on the one hand . . . on the other hand" approach to basic questions). The result was not just "leaning" left, it was drowning in it. One of my brightest "evangelical" classmates came back from PhD work claiming that Jesus had no idea that he was God. An intern of mine blurted out in class: "Didn't Peter . . . like 'tip him off' at Caesarea Philippi?"


This is an important, serious point that seems to keep coming up. I do think I need a solid foundation for my MA. I was not sure whether I'd go for a Ph.D _at a seminary_, and I wanted to aim high.



Damon Rambo said:


> Sorry, but I have to do this...
> You are Reformed [email protected]!!W The Premier (in my opinion) Seminary in the Country is only 7 hours south of you! Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, man, in Louisville. Al Mohler, Bruce Ware, Don Whitney, Russell Moore, Kevin Smith...not to mention guest lecturers like R.C. Sproul, Ligon Duncan, Mark Dever...
> 
> O.K. Rant completed. Carry on.


Well, that seminary was the first one I visited, and I planned on applying. Then I recognized a block in my way: they require membership in a local church, and I am not a "member" of my church. I have been attending since I was 10 years old, was baptized there, but disagreed with a couple clauses in their covenant so I didn't take that step. Sure, I could include that on the app and they could make an exception, but at the point I was putting out the apps I just didn't know if I wanted to go there anymore since I felt stronger about Calvin and Westminster.


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## Kiffin (Mar 28, 2011)

athanatos said:


> Then I recognized a block in my way: they require membership in a local church, and I am not a "member" of my church. I have been attending since I was 10 years old, was baptized there, but disagreed with a couple clauses in their covenant so I didn't take that step.



Just curious--what were those clauses? 

I know you were looking for a "tight" reformed school but have you considered TEDS or Wheaton? What field of study were you thinking about pursuing?


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## rpeters (Mar 28, 2011)

athanatos said:


> I was told by my PCA friend that being ordained CRC would be accepted by PCA were I to enter into pastoral ministry, and that bit of info only reinforces my hunch that I am complaining about Calvin. I also heard that CTS is not necessarily representative of CRC; and vice versa, thus allowing the seminary to float above a lot of these nasty fights and just give some good, straight education.



Depends on the presbytery.


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## athanatos (Mar 28, 2011)

Kiffin said:


> athanatos said:
> 
> 
> > Then I recognized a block in my way: they require membership in a local church, and I am not a "member" of my church. I have been attending since I was 10 years old, was baptized there, but disagreed with a couple clauses in their covenant so I didn't take that step.
> ...


Well, the one that jumps out in my mind was about alcohol. Members cannot buy, sell or consume alcohol. To me, that's not only silly, it is unbiblical. Jesus couldn't be a member at our church (admittedly, we live in a different age, where we have a lot cleaner sources of drink). But this also means we can't be gas station attendants, waiters/waitresses, and so on. Meanwhile, I occasionally drink, but never to excess. That's Biblical.

I think the other two had to do with wording more than the content, but I am not sure. I thought it was something about the Bible that seemed to be too elevated (can't remember), and something about Mary. I have a feeling that they were just archaic, but not serious errors. I can check it if you'd like.



> I know you were looking for a "tight" reformed school but have you considered TEDS or Wheaton? What field of study were you thinking about pursuing?


I did check TEDS out. I don't think I checked out Wheaton. At this point, I really am not sure I can/want to apply to any other seminaries. My aim is to teach theology ultimately; but am frustrated that I am not dead-set on that, since philosophy is a passion of mine (however limited market). I want to study for the languages and systematic theology, and from there continue more study so I can narrow my focus.




rpeters said:


> athanatos said:
> 
> 
> > I was told by my PCA friend that being ordained CRC would be accepted by PCA were I to enter into pastoral ministry, and that bit of info only reinforces my hunch that I am complaining about Calvin. I also heard that CTS is not necessarily representative of CRC; and vice versa, thus allowing the seminary to float above a lot of these nasty fights and just give some good, straight education.
> ...


Not surprised. And just because you get a M.Div in PCA doesn't mean you'll be in a congregation too, either, right?


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## puritanpilgrim (Mar 28, 2011)

> Well, that seminary was the first one I visited, and I planned on applying. Then I recognized a block in my way: they require membership in a local church, and I am not a "member" of my church. I have been attending since I was 10 years old, was baptized there, but disagreed with a couple clauses in their covenant so I didn't take that step. Sure, I could include that on the app and they could make an exception, but at the point I was putting out the apps I just didn't know if I wanted to go there anymore since I felt stronger about Calvin and Westminster.



Why would any seminary let you attend if you weren't a member of a church?


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## fredtgreco (Mar 28, 2011)

athanatos said:


> rpeters said:
> 
> 
> > athanatos said:
> ...


 
It does depend, but I would need to tell you, brother, that a degree from Calvin will be viewed as a big minus in the PCA. The fact of it is that many pulpit committees will simply toss a Calvin application without further review. Others will view it very skeptically. You will be grilled (heavily) over fundamental issues, because Calvin has gone so far to pot. If you are looking to pastor in the PCA, I would not attend Calvin. in my opinion, looking at it from a PhD level is a big mistake. Do you realize how many positions in the whole country require a PhD? Do you have any idea how unlikely it is to get one of those positions?


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## athanatos (Mar 28, 2011)

puritanpilgrim said:


> > Well, that seminary was the first one I visited, and I planned on applying. Then I recognized a block in my way: they require membership in a local church, and I am not a "member" of my church. I have been attending since I was 10 years old, was baptized there, but disagreed with a couple clauses in their covenant so I didn't take that step. Sure, I could include that on the app and they could make an exception, but at the point I was putting out the apps I just didn't know if I wanted to go there anymore since I felt stronger about Calvin and Westminster.
> 
> 
> Why would any seminary let you attend if you weren't a member of a church?


In many (most?) cases, I would say it should raise a red flag. But why would do you think it should bar you entirely?

I know I need not defend a seminary's decision to accept me, but I think exceptions _can_ be reasonable (even if not ideal) if various conditions are met, such as accountability, activity, maturity, etc. in a similar fashion as a member. In my case, I have been under authority at this church for 14+ yr, and have been commissioned to be over others in my church for 5+ years. Regarding doctrine, I did not consider it significant enough to leave the church, because I grew up there. My family is there. My friends are there. I get fed. I am _not_ proud of being a non-member who is active and has some authority. I am eager to get into a new community when I move, that I may take that step.



fredtgreco said:


> athanatos said:
> 
> 
> > Not surprised. And just because you get a M.Div in PCA doesn't mean you'll be in a congregation too, either, right?
> ...


I think I am going to decide that Calvin is not for me. Both my pastor, some hunches I had, and near-concensus from you guys kinda tells me I should not go there.



> Do you realize how many positions in the whole country require a PhD? Do you have any idea how unlikely it is to get one of those positions?


No, I really don't know how unlikely.


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## athanatos (Mar 29, 2011)

Just got accepted by Westminster!

---edit---
Just paid tuition deposit at Covenant.


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## jjraby (Mar 29, 2011)

Even though its not on your perspective lists. NOT RTS Jackson..


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## athanatos (Mar 29, 2011)

I like your avatar. Mind saying why not RTS Jackson? I'm not really considering that place, in any case.


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## jjraby (Mar 29, 2011)

athanatos said:


> I like your avatar. Mind saying why not RTS Jackson? I'm not really considering that place, in any case.



I attend here now. This place is on life support. Nothing against RTS in general, Its just that this campus needs a revival, and it probably won't happen. Its in a bad part of town, In, arguably, the most conservative PCA presbytery (people call it Military Valley), and it is located in a blighted city. And certainly the gospel needs to be proclaimed here. But the only outreach arm of this seminary that i have seen has been the counseling center. The rest of the seminary sits behind it's gates and guard tower (They are needed). The Seminary, aside from the counseling program, is dying. it's bleeding professors (We just lost Derek Thomas) and Mdiv enrollment has been trending down. Over emphasis on the languages causes people like me, who aren't interested in becoming Greek or Hebrew scholars loathe the original languages because they way they are pushed. A lack of a practical theology department is a major problem as well.

Need i say more?


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## Zenas (Mar 29, 2011)

That's very odd. In all honesty, the pastors I hold in the highest regard either graduated from or taught at RTS Jackson.


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## jjraby (Mar 29, 2011)

Zenas said:


> That's very odd. In all honesty, the pastors I hold in the highest regard either graduated from or taught at RTS Jackson.



They were probably here when RTS Jackson was either the only RTS. Alot has changed here. By the way Andrew, Derek Thomas is going to an ARP church.


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## cajunhillbilly53 (Mar 29, 2011)

All I can say is that my 3 years at WTS Philly were a real blessing to me and I would definitely recommend that school. Plus there is now a WTS branch in Dallas called Redeemer Seminary. Wow a Reformed seminary in the heart of Dispensational country.


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## Romans922 (Mar 29, 2011)

Note: seminary is not responsible for evangelizing the community it is in, however you would think its professors, staff, and students would be doing that voluntarily. JR have you been evangelizing to your neighbors?

A seminary is to prepare a man for Pastoral Ministry. Though some practical theology can be taught at a seminary, the best practical theology is going to be taught in the Church you are a member of and serving at. Seminary is to train your mind. To be a good Pastor, one needs to be able to preach from the Word of God. To best do this, you need to learn the Original languages. JR, by the time you graduate seminary, if you have never had languages before seminary, and if you don't continue studying them, you will essentially be at a 3rd grade level in Hebrew and Greek (that is a rough estimate). Seminary gives you the beginning tools...a guide which should be being shaped by the Church...and which should be shaped more by personal study for the rest of your life. I think your outlook on seminary is faulty and a dangerous. 

Now as to whether RTS Jackson is a good seminary or not, it all depends on what you do with what you are given. 

Also, on a side note, I wonder what your problem with the PT department is having gone to RTS Jackson myself.


FINALLY: Jonathan, go to WTS.


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## CalvinandHodges (Mar 29, 2011)

Hi:

You might want to consider RPTS - they have an excellent Greek and Hebrew program, and they have a good Professor of Homiletics - Dr. Prutow. You might want to check out his book on preaching:

So Pastor, What's Your Point?

RPTS:

RPTS: Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary

Blessings wherever you go!

-Rob


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## fredtgreco (Mar 29, 2011)

Romans922 said:


> Also, on a side note, I wonder what your problem with the PT department is having gone to RTS Jackson myself.



Probably that the PT department is basically gone (Jussley, Thomas)


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## Romans922 (Mar 29, 2011)

fredtgreco said:


> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> > Also, on a side note, I wonder what your problem with the PT department is having gone to RTS Jackson myself.
> ...


 
I considered that  but thought I might seek if there was another problem...


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## Micah Everett (Mar 29, 2011)

With the exception of J.R., who has made his opinion quite clear, would you gentlemen that have been to RTS Jackson no longer recommend that one go there? 

I have been praying for some time about whether the Lord would have me enter the ministry, and RTS is at the top of my list, mainly for family and financial reasons--my parents and my wife's parents live within an hour's drive of RTS, and my parents own my late great aunt and uncle's home in Brandon (those of you that know the area know where that is), where we could live rent-free while in school. I have to admit, though, that all of the recent departures are troubling. Are they not making any efforts to replace these men, or is finding men willing to move to Jackson and work in the area where RTS is the problem? (As has been noted here frequently, it is in a scary part of town.)

As a side note, FPC Columbia is in for a treat. My wife and I normally visit FPC Jackson when visiting family in the area, and have been especially blessed by Dr. Thomas's preaching. It will be disappointing to not be able to study with him, if the Lord wills that we go to seminary at all.


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## fredtgreco (Mar 29, 2011)

Micah Everett said:


> With the exception of J.R., who has made his opinion quite clear, would you gentlemen that have been to RTS Jackson no longer recommend that one go there?
> 
> I have been praying for some time about whether the Lord would have me enter the ministry, and RTS is at the top of my list, mainly for family and financial reasons--my parents and my wife's parents live within an hour's drive of RTS, and my parents own my late great aunt and uncle's home in Brandon (those of you that know the area know where that is), where we could live rent-free while in school. I have to admit, though, that all of the recent departures are troubling. Are they not making any efforts to replace these men, or is finding men willing to move to Jackson and work in the area where RTS is the problem? (As has been noted here frequently, it is in a scary part of town.)
> 
> As a side note, FPC Columbia is in for a treat. My wife and I normally visit FPC Jackson when visiting family in the area, and have been especially blessed by Dr. Thomas's preaching. It will be disappointing to not be able to study with him, if the Lord wills that we go to seminary at all.


 
I am very concerned about RTS Jackson because of so many departures. I don't think that the departures were a result of professors _fleeing _RTS, but rather many men seeking a different _*pastoral *_call that took them from Jackson. I have great respect for Miles Van Pelt's ability with the languages, and I think Dennis Ireland is one of the most under-rated and under-appreciated scholars at Reformed seminaries.

I do think that replacing men is difficult, both in trying to find Confessional and pastoral men, and in finding men willing to relocate to Jackson. I think you need to do some research, but in my mind financial considerations are important as well. I would not advise a man to go to a different seminary, even if it was objectively somewhat better, if that meant having $40,000 in debt (and I have heard many such stories). That kind of debt is in my opinion, crippling to ministry.


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## Micah Everett (Mar 29, 2011)

fredtgreco said:


> I think you need to do some research, but in my mind financial considerations are important as well. I would not advise a man to go to a different seminary, even if it was objectively somewhat better, if that meant having $40,000 in debt (and I have heard many such stories). That kind of debt is in my opinion, crippling to ministry.



Thanks for your response; this is my thinking as well. All things being equal, I would probably go to PRTS. (Referring back to the OP, Jonathan, I wouldn't write them off just yet!) I did one of their 18-credit certificates via distance-learning and absolutely loved everything about it (except that it was distance learning--Scott Clark is correct regarding DL's disadvantages, and when I started that program I really wasn't thinking too much about full-time ministry). Joel Beeke matches warm piety and thorough scholarship better than just about anyone I have ever seen. But, all things are not equal, and with the free rent and other family support available in the Jackson area (such as free babysitting), that situation will be hard to beat. Additionally, I have a feeling that a degree from RTS will be better received in the PCA than one from PRTS, though I might be mistaken about that.

In any case, the current situation at RTS gives me much to think about, and makes the case for choosing Jackson, in spite of all of the advantages I would enjoy there, not quite so "open and shut" as it might otherwise be. I still am not sure whether or not the Lord would have me go to seminary at all, at least not right now, due to some minor health concerns, so I am content to take my time watching and praying over this.

My apologies for hijacking the thread. Carry on.


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## athanatos (Mar 31, 2011)

fredtgreco said:


> I think you need to do some research, but in my mind financial considerations are important as well. I would not advise a man to go to a different seminary, even if it was objectively somewhat better, if that meant having $40,000 in debt (and I have heard many such stories). That kind of debt is in my opinion, crippling to ministry.


I have been trying to keep this in mind too. WTS sounds awesome, but cost of living is ~$4000 more than CovTS, per year. I have About $11k saved up, and will probably accumulate another 2k by the time I quit/move. This is actually about 3-4k less than I thought I would have saved up by now. But while I plan to work part time and take small student loans, I am hoping that after a 2 year program I will not have more than $5,000 in debt. (Maybe) this is unreasonable, but I really want to avoid loans as much as possible. I have never taken a loan out in college. Meanwhile, I don't know if I'll have any financial aid given me outside of loans.



Romans922 said:


> FINALLY: Jonathan, go to WTS.


Thanks for your input.



Micah Everett said:


> My apologies for hijacking the thread. Carry on.


No worries 


And finally, does anyone have a beef against Covenant? I thought they were pretty good. Heck, ESV has many people from Covenant who contributed. But I _have_ heard a couple voices dissenting. I just wonder. They a good school after all?


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## Romans922 (Mar 31, 2011)

I have beef with CTS but I will leave it for now for other guys. Mine is all based on what I have heard, and some/many of the men (not all) who come out of there and Pastor churches. If cost is a concern, I would recommend trying to do the distance courses through GPTS and you could transfer to WTS and finish or finish at GPTS directly. Just a thought.


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## devonturnbaugh (Mar 31, 2011)

Jonathan, I have heard some negative things about Cov. but none of it is verifiable with the content that is taught here. I have sat in on many lectures including those by Mike Williams(who some have called into question) and found nothing he said to be outside of the bounds of classic reformed position. I am starting cov. in the spring of 2012 and have multiple friends who go here and have zero issues with what is taught here. I would say that picking Cov. is a great choice for you to make. It is a great place to live and there are many good churches to choose from. If you decide to move here and make STL your home I would love to connect with you and show you around. Grace and Peace


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## athanatos (Apr 8, 2011)

Thanks for all of your input. I am going to Westminster. Off to Philly!


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## Andres (Apr 8, 2011)

athanatos said:


> Thanks for all of your input. I am going to Westminster. Off to Philly!



Congrats! It's a great school!


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