# AWANA



## ChristopherPaul

What are your thoughts on AWANA?

In looking at the statement of faith it appears they are Baptist and premillennial.

Would it be safe to send our (that is, us confessional parents) children to be instructed under such programs?


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## jaybird0827

If you have about 20 minutes, I think it might help to listen to this. One of the most important points my pastor makes in this brief address is getting the people in the local church on the same spiritual diet.

I think you would do far better to catechise your children to reinforce what you're being taught within the context of the local church, assuming that your local church is sound. That would prove more productive than risking other sources undermining what you purpose to teach your children and then having to undo the damage.


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## LadyFlynt

They are. The PCA churches in the St L area refused to have them as they could not sign the SOF in good conscience. For that reason we ruled out one of the PCA churches here...they have AWANA....you have to sign the SOF in order to have it at your church. Conflict. In fact, the church we are visiting right now also has a non-reformed "club"...not too happy about this when there is KidsQuest available (catachising).

I agree with above poster...catechism is the best way to go. (btw, my children were in AWANAS when we were Dispensational/baptists and it is a grilling thing. I was relieved to leave it behind)


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## VirginiaHuguenot

> _Originally posted by jaybird0827_
> If you have about 20 minutes, I think it might help to listen to this. One of the most important points my pastor makes in this brief address is getting the people in the local church on the same spiritual diet.
> 
> I think you would do far better to catechise your children to reinforce what you're being taught within the context of the local church, assuming that your local church is sound. That would prove more productive than risking other sources undermining what you purpose to teach your children and then having to undo the damage.


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## Scott Shahan

My son has gone the last 3 years to AWANA and it is a good program. It would be a shame not to have him involved with it. He gets invoved with other childern in the church. And the activities they do Glorify the Lord. Sure there is definetly a place to teach catechism but there is also a place to have fun and fellowship. I suppose I could isolate my son from the other boy's and girl's on Wednesday nights and keep him home so we could go over the catechism. But there are other nights of the week we can do that.


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## Kevin

We stay away from AWANA. 

My wife went as a child (her dad is a baptist pastor) and it is very focused on getting your kids to say the "sinners prayer". in my opinion these programs do a lot of damage to covenant children by promoting easy-believism & a false assurence.

I am suprised that a PCA church would be able to have an AWANA program because my understanding is that they will not set up a paedobaptist church with the program.


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## ChristopherPaul

> _Originally posted by Scott Shahan_
> My son has gone the last 3 years to AWANA and it is a good program. It would be a shame not to have him involved with it. He gets invoved with other childern in the church. And the activities they do Glorify the Lord. Sure there is definetly a place to teach catechism but there is also a place to have fun and fellowship. I suppose I could isolate my son from the other boy's and girl's on Wednesday nights and keep him home so we could go over the catechism. But there are other nights of the week we can do that.



Or perhaps confessional churches need to implement more group learning activities for the children within their congregations. 

The Kids' Quest Catechism Club that JColleen mentioned looks very cool; I never heard of it before. Last night I emailed many of the local PCA churches asking if they offer this program through their churches. 

Fellowship and social interaction is great, but kids ask a lot of questions. I am not so sure I trust the people who will be answering those questions being that I will be leaving my kids in the care of some of these churches that I sharply disagree with. One of the churches in my area that offers AWANA only uses KJV and another church has women officers and practices divine supernatural healing through laying of hands. I don´t want to confuse my kids.

Thanks for the feedback so far everyone!


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## Founded on the Rock

I find this interesting because I find myself in a situation where I HAVE to be a leader in an AWANA program for school. Not to swtich the subject, but I had to watch their instructional video and it was a VERY shallow way of sharing the gospel!

What should I do as someone who is obligated to be apart of the program in order to stay enrolled at my school (Moody Bible Institute)?


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## LadyFlynt

YIKES! I wish I knew what to tell you. Have you tried sitting down with the dean or whomever?

Other than that, your main thing is memorizing scripture...grin and bear it?


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## Founded on the Rock

haha I know.. well I figure that I present the Gospel in a Biblical way when asked to do so.... I won't be at Moody next semester so it is only for a while... I really don't know what to do though... I knew it would be really weird! God has put me here for a reason... what the reason is could be interesting!


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## heartoflesh

I'm an AWANAs leader and have two daughters in the program-- both in Sparks. I like the aspect of involvement with other kids and it's an overall good, positive way to spend the time. As a parent, I enjoy working on the verses with my daughters at home. Yes, I could do that without them being in AWANAs too.

I was a leader last year as well, and I can tell you that premillennialism was never mentioned, nor was I pressured to get anyone to pray the "sinners prayer". 

There's some goofy things, sure, but nowadays everything is a little bit goofy. It depends on what hills you are willing to die on. For me, those hills have decreased in recent years. Time was I would probably wax poetic about the Textus Receptus or some other essential, but alas no more. I was so much older than. I'm younger than that now.


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## Scott Shahan

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> They are. The PCA churches in the St L area refused to have them as they could not sign the SOF in good conscience. For that reason we ruled out one of the PCA churches here...they have AWANA....you have to sign the SOF in order to have it at your church. Conflict. In fact, the church we are visiting right now also has a non-reformed "club"...not too happy about this when there is KidsQuest available (catachising).
> 
> I agree with above poster...catechism is the best way to go. (btw, my children were in AWANAS when we were Dispensational/baptists and it is a grilling thing. I was relieved to leave it behind)




Colleen,

What is a SOF? I go to a Evangelical Free Church which teaches the Doctrines of Grace. I would like to know what is the theological problem with the AWANA program. I have looked at their material for a few years now and I am not sure what the problem is. My son has to memorize scripture verses every week, is there somekind of problem with that? and then we are to do different activities together, such as arts and crafts or field trips, ect, I need you to show me in their literature where the theological problem is. 

[Edited on 06-07-2006 by Scott Shahan]


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## BJClark

Founded on the Rock,

Why not mention to those in charge the other program Ladyflynt mentioned?

They might consider implementing that as an alternative or maybe find it to be a better program and do away with the other altogether.


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## LadyFlynt

Scott,

SOF = Statement of Faith. The SOF on the website states believer's baptism and premillinialism.

My issue with the program does go deeper. My children were in it for several years (four or five years). It has a high burn out rate. We had alot of verses to learn (and in my case alot of children with different verses). Some of the leaders were kind and understanding...some were not. To them and then to the kids, it was very stressful and come hell or high water the child better memorize the verses in a short time or get left in the dust. This was frustrating. The goal was on rewards and recognition...not truely an understanding of the Word. At first glance the program looks great...from having lived it, it can be gruelling. A friend's son is dyslexic and the leaders gave him a really bad time, had the mother in tears...she finally grabbed someone she knew and said here is the problem and that she was about to pull him. That one person was kind enough to take over and help her son out and inform the other leaders that he MUST be permitted to go at his own pace. And then there is leader burnout. I have never seen a program that adults tried to hide from recreuitement as much as they did this program.


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## caddy

Being involved in our SBC AWANA program for our 5-6-7 year olds, I fail to see the "HARM" in being grilled with memorizing scripture. I mean, step back and listen to how that sounds!

As a reforming SBC member, I am not privy to all the interesting programs like "Kids' Quest Catechism Club" and others that have a more Reformed flavor, but let's be realistic here. I see first hand the positive effect this program has on kids, if not just time spent in God's word and with loving adults who care about where they might spend their eternity. God is at work in AWANAs just as He works in Kids Quest. No program, however well thought-out is flawless in conception, administration, or methods.






> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> YIKES! I wish I knew what to tell you. Have you tried sitting down with the dean or whomever?
> 
> Other than that, your main thing is memorizing scripture...grin and bear it?


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## LadyFlynt

I'm not against the memorization.

I'm against the fact that memorization in the mind takes primary place over understanding of the heart. That rewards, recognition, speed, and how many kids can win at conference takes place over working together in class and actually TEACHING. I have not seen any true CARE or TEACHING in this program. Ringing a bell and having a child give a memorized answer is not what we are after. Having a child understand what and why is.


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## caddy

I agree!

I have been invloved with our AWANAs program for 3 years now. I have yet to see any hint of a pre-mil "bent" nor have I heard or witnessed anyone pressured to pray a "sinners prayer."

When I see our children come to Christ--as He draws them--I have seen a very concerted effort on the part of our parents, pastor and workers, to help them understand the drawing of the Holy Spirit and the seriousness of where He is leading them. 

Excellent point Rick about waxing poetic. Let's not major on the minor here. 




> _Originally posted by Rick Larson_
> I'm an AWANAs leader and have two daughters in the program-- both in Sparks. I like the aspect of involvement with other kids and it's an overall good, positive way to spend the time. As a parent, I enjoy working on the verses with my daughters at home. Yes, I could do that without them being in AWANAs too.
> 
> I was a leader last year as well, and I can tell you that premillennialism was never mentioned, nor was I pressured to get anyone to pray the "sinners prayer".
> 
> There's some goofy things, sure, but nowadays everything is a little bit goofy. It depends on what hills you are willing to die on. For me, those hills have decreased in recent years. Time was I would probably wax poetic about the Textus Receptus or some other essential, but alas no more. I was so much older than. I'm younger than that now.


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## LadyFlynt

Mayhap, it is how the program is handled from place to place.

There is still the issue of having to sign a SOF that is contrary to what a church believes (ie., a prebyterian church signing something that is contrary to paedobaptism).


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## caddy

True Caring and Teaching is the epitomy of what is taking place with these children in our Awanas program. I can't count the times I have nixed the memorization and replaced it with stories that teach simple truths. Being that my age group is 5-6-7...and that many are just dropped off at our church by their parents, I have also nixed the teaching when I have seen that some of these kids just want a little rough-housing, a hug, or some individual time and attention. God works through us in all the above ways. Kids know when they are loved. I think it is extremely hard to fool a child in matters of the heart, and I also believe they are extremely intuitive. Understanding of the heart is captured in all its profoundness when a child knows he is loved with the love of Christ. That is what we do in Awanas.



> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> I'm not against the memorization.
> 
> I'm against the fact that memorization in the mind takes primary place over understanding of the heart. That rewards, recognition, speed, and how many kids can win at conference takes place over working together in class and actually TEACHING. I have not seen any true CARE or TEACHING in this program. Ringing a bell and having a child give a memorized answer is not what we are after. Having a child understand what and why is.





[Edited on 9-26-2006 by caddy]


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## jaybird0827

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> Mayhap, it is how the program is handled from place to place.
> 
> There is still the issue of having to sign a SOF that is contrary to what a church believes (ie., a prebyterian church signing something that is contrary to paedobaptism).





Faithful Presbyterian elders will be keenly aware of their accountability before God in their decision to sign, or not sign, such a statement.

Note Statement of Faith here.

[Edited on 9-26-2006 by jaybird0827]


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## Arch2k

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by jaybird0827_
> If you have about 20 minutes, I think it might help to listen to this. One of the most important points my pastor makes in this brief address is getting the people in the local church on the same spiritual diet.
> 
> I think you would do far better to catechise your children to reinforce what you're being taught within the context of the local church, assuming that your local church is sound. That would prove more productive than risking other sources undermining what you purpose to teach your children and then having to undo the damage.
Click to expand...


 I have heard some horror stories about Arminian teaching to the core at AWANA.


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## LadyFlynt

The link is gone...help?


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## heartoflesh

> I have heard some horror stories about Arminian teaching to the core at AWANA.




Is this statement verifiable? Or is it just what you've _heard_.

I've heard horror stories about Presbyterians, that' they're all hyper-Calvinistic and don't believe sinners should be told to "believe". Surely it must be true. 


You know, I've been away from here for quite a while, and now I remember why. It's the weasel-like remarks like this.


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## LadyFlynt

Why is that weasel like? Seriously. Heresay, yes...weasel like?


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## heartoflesh

because it's funnier


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## caddy

Where's Rodney King when you need him ?


Don't make me go get Chuck N !


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## Arch2k

> _Originally posted by Rick Larson_
> 
> 
> 
> I have heard some horror stories about Arminian teaching to the core at AWANA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is this statement verifiable? Or is it just what you've _heard_.
> 
> I've heard horror stories about Presbyterians, that' they're all hyper-Calvinistic and don't believe sinners should be told to "believe". Surely it must be true.
> 
> 
> You know, I've been away from here for quite a while, and now I remember why. It's the weasel-like remarks like this.
Click to expand...


It depends on what you mean by verifiable. I'm sure I could get the phone number of the people who attended/helped lead at AWANA if you wanted to "verify" the information that way. If you are asking me if I have seen this first hand, the answer is no. Are they trustworthy witnesses? In my opinion, yes.


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## blhowes

> _Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel_
> I have heard some horror stories about Arminian teaching to the core at AWANA.


I'd agree that the teachings definitely (from my experience, anyway) are much more Arminian than Calvinistic. I use to be an AWANA leader for a number of years and there was always an invitation given to 'accept Christ', with the emphasis being 'its your choice'. The idea that God chooses people for salvation was never taught. This is how it was locally, and that's also how it was when we had the regional grand prix and the regional olympics (a message was always given at the end, with an opportunity to 'accept Christ'.)

[Edited on 9-26-2006 by blhowes]


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## caddy

^^^

I have not seen this, but obviously, being SBC there is a definate Arminian element in our Church Service. So much so I am sure that I probably can't even understand from a Reformed or Presbyterian perspective the dynamic that runs through their services.

J.I. Packer chose to stay in his current Anglican Church and work with all the flaws from within. Do we leave or are we to stay and be salt and light to our current churches and programs, flawed though they are!? I have so far chosen the latter, so would appreciate your kind understanding and prayers....


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## heartoflesh

Let's just face the facts that nothing is going to pass muster with you guys unless it's a 100% Reformed presentation, complete with footnotes from the Westminster or LBC, and even then you'll argue about details and intricacies and someone will no doubt hit the floor as a heretic.


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## caddy

^^^

Agreed

If there is ONE HUGE BONE I have to pick with Reformed Thinking it is this: The "I am Superior to you in every way" type thinking.


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## blhowes

> _Originally posted by Rick Larson_
> Let's just face the facts that nothing is going to pass muster with you guys unless it's a 100% Reformed presentation, complete with footnotes from the Westminster or LBC, and even then you'll argue about details and intricacies and someone will no doubt hit the floor as a heretic.


I'm not sure if this is directed at me, but I didn't mean to sound like I was being judgemental against the AWANA program, just relating my experience and 'stating the facts' as I see them.

[Edited on 9-26-2006 by blhowes]


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## heartoflesh

> I'm not sure if this is directed at me, but I didn't mean to sound like I was being judgemental against the AWANA program, just relating my experience and 'stating the facts' as I see them.



No, not directed at you. Just venting in general. I will stop now.


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## Scott Shahan

> _Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel_
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by jaybird0827_
> If you have about 20 minutes, I think it might help to listen to this. One of the most important points my pastor makes in this brief address is getting the people in the local church on the same spiritual diet.
> 
> I think you would do far better to catechise your children to reinforce what you're being taught within the context of the local church, assuming that your local church is sound. That would prove more productive than risking other sources undermining what you purpose to teach your children and then having to undo the damage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have heard some horror stories about Arminian teaching to the core at AWANA.
Click to expand...


If AWANA has it's roots in Arminianism They are teaching a false gospel. Where did this AWANA program come from? Who founded it?


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## heartoflesh

> Who founded it?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awana


Honestly, it's really just gametime for the kids and then we recite verses. Then there is a "counsel" time where a leader talks to the kids about some particular subject, but as far as I know they don't use anything official for this time.

[Edited on 9-26-2006 by Rick Larson]


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## Scott Shahan

Rick,

I am leaving my son in the program. He likes it and I do not think that he is being harmed by it. We have gone to this church for years now and I think I have a good understanding of what is going on in this church. This is the first time that I have ever heard something negative about the AWANA program. I have emailed my pastor concerning this. So that he can read this thread for himself. 

Scott


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## AdamM

Does it seem a bit bizarre to anyone else that our Reformed answer to the AWANA BIBLE memorization program is to teach our kids the catechism?


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## rjlynam

what Adam said.


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## rjlynam

> _Originally posted by caddy_
> ^^^
> 
> Agreed
> 
> If there is ONE HUGE BONE I have to pick with Reformed Thinking it is this: The "I am Superior to you in every way" type thinking.



Just for the "what it's worth" value, I consider myself a reformed thinker, but I think it behooves everyone to remember Colossians 4:6 when posting:

Colossians 4:6 - _Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person._

This is not a rebuttal to your comment, Steven, just using it as an example of how people shouldn't end up feeling.




[Edited on 9-27-2006 by rjlynam]


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## Scott Shahan

> _Originally posted by AdamM_
> Does it seem a bit bizarre to anyone else that our Reformed answer to the AWANA BIBLE memorization program is to teach our kids the catechism?





This is great insight, Adam, it is a bit bizarre! Memorizing God's Word trumps man made catechisms. When it comes to push and shove memorizing God's Word is more of a priority to know, then memorizing the Westminister Catechism. sola scripture!

I am not anti catechism, but putting that above memorization of the Holy Scriptures isn't right.

AWANA is about Scripture memorization and that Glorifies the Lord Jesus.

Scott


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## Kevin

I don't know about anyone else but in my family when we "catechise" we memorize scripture.

This is not an either/or situation.

My primary problem with the AWANA type scripture memorization is that it can tend toward "proof-texting". This is not a specific complaint about AWANA all arminianism has this problem In my humble opinion.

If your kids like the club aspect try boy scouts/girl guides and the WSC with scripture.


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## ChristopherPaul

> _Originally posted by caddy_
> True Caring and Teaching is the epitomy of what is taking place with these children in our Awanas program. *I can't count the times I have nixed the memorization and replaced it with stories that teach simple truths.* Being that my age group is 5-6-7...and that many are just dropped off at our church by their parents, I have also nixed the teaching when I have seen that some of these kids just want a little rough-housing, a hug, or some individual time and attention. God works through us in all the above ways. Kids know when they are loved. I think it is extremely hard to fool a child in matters of the heart, and I also believe they are extremely intuitive. Understanding of the heart is captured in all its profoundness when a child knows he is loved with the love of Christ. That is what we do in Awanas.
> [Edited on 9-26-2006 by caddy]



The part I bolded above is what primarily concerns me. I don´t think anyone has problems with memorizing scripture (Reformed theology is all about knowing God´s word inside and out). Formal catechizing helps ensure children are taught scripture correctly. AWANA certainly includes catechizing. The problem is, the answers do not come from approved sources, but individualistic opinions of possible strangers who do not attend a confessional church for one reason or another (ignorance or disagreement). These are the people who will be answering your child´s questions (my children ask a lot of questions).

Sure there are churches that may use AWANA and teach appropriately, but the program is designed by non-confessional churches and primarily supported by non-confessional churches. Kids do not just take home memorized scripture verses when leaving every week. What stays with them is what they see and hear from the members of this non-confessional church. Unless I intimately know the teachers, it would be difficult to entrust my children into the care of such "œteachers" who have all their catechism answers in their heads and see it best to avoid confessional churches (again for whatever reason).

Kids can interact and play at the park or at story time at the library, etc. The right and consistent teaching of all that Jesus commanded is what is vital.

Also do not forget catechizing includes memorizing scripture and its right application.


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## Kevin




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## LadyFlynt

Uh, the Catechizing INCLUDES Scripture Memorization.

Kids' Quest does.
Catechism in the RPCNA did (Goodness the ppl there have the Q&A and the scriptures that went with each all memorized!).

The problem is NOT catechism vs scripture memorization.

The problem is the set up of AWANAS and how it is handled.

[Edited on 9-27-2006 by LadyFlynt]


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## jaybird0827

See also this thread on Catechism resources. There is ample material here, including Scripture.


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## caddy

Chris

Maybe I need to understand exactly what you mean concerning my statement that read, "œI can't count the times I have nixed the memorization and replaced it with stories that teach simple truths." Why does that concern you? Does it concern you that even though I fully believe in all aspects of Reformed Theology yet belong to the SBC and work in AWANAs that I might be teaching them error? I am sure formal catechizing is a wonderful tool and I would no doubt agree that it could and would benefit our children, but those programs and tools are NOT available to us. This is NOT about your children, this is about children who are not privy to such programs, most of who"”as I have already stated"”are dropped off by their parents. Most of these parents are not even concerned with their children´s spiritual welfare, but we are. I think you need perspective on a world that is not as perfect as yours! 

So, does this mean that God is not at work in our church and cannot work through simple stories? Did Christ not teach in parables? What is your point? You have a wonderful picture of your family nicely dressed in white. They are absolutely gorgeous. You belong to a wonderful church no doubt with all the best teaching tools and catechisms. I am sure you are a wonderful father who cares and prays diligently for your family. Do your prayers, your approved sources and your doctrinally correct church insure that a Sovereign God will honor your prayers that each of your children will know Him intimately as you pray and hope? Absolutely not! As your children grow and your parental control lessens, there will be times that you can do nothing else but to entrust them to a merciful heavenly father. Maybe I am reading you wrong, but you write as though you are more in control that than you really are. Story time at the park or at the library? If these children are being dropped off at church, I seriously doubt that their parents are overly concerned with making sure that their kids have interaction time at parks and libraries, have the right and consistent teaching of all that Jesus commanded them at home.





> _Originally posted by ChristopherPaul_
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by caddy_
> True Caring and Teaching is the epitomy of what is taking place with these children in our Awanas program. *I can't count the times I have nixed the memorization and replaced it with stories that teach simple truths.* Being that my age group is 5-6-7...and that many are just dropped off at our church by their parents, I have also nixed the teaching when I have seen that some of these kids just want a little rough-housing, a hug, or some individual time and attention. God works through us in all the above ways. Kids know when they are loved. I think it is extremely hard to fool a child in matters of the heart, and I also believe they are extremely intuitive. Understanding of the heart is captured in all its profoundness when a child knows he is loved with the love of Christ. That is what we do in Awanas.
> [Edited on 9-26-2006 by caddy]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The part I bolded above is what primarily concerns me. I don´t think anyone has problems with memorizing scripture (Reformed theology is all about knowing God´s word inside and out). Formal catechizing helps ensure children are taught scripture correctly. AWANA certainly includes catechizing. The problem is, the answers do not come from approved sources, but individualistic opinions of possible strangers who do not attend a confessional church for one reason or another (ignorance or disagreement). These are the people who will be answering your child´s questions (my children ask a lot of questions).
> 
> Sure there are churches that may use AWANA and teach appropriately, but the program is designed by non-confessional churches and primarily supported by non-confessional churches. Kids do not just take home memorized scripture verses when leaving every week. What stays with them is what they see and hear from the members of this non-confessional church. Unless I intimately know the teachers, it would be difficult to entrust my children into the care of such "œteachers" who have all their catechism answers in their heads and see it best to avoid confessional churches (again for whatever reason).
> 
> Kids can interact and play at the park or at story time at the library, etc. The right and consistent teaching of all that Jesus commanded is what is vital.
> 
> Also do not forget catechizing includes memorizing scripture and its right application.
Click to expand...


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## ChristopherPaul

> _Originally posted by caddy_
> Chris
> 
> Maybe I need to understand exactly what you mean concerning my statement that read, "œI can't count the times I have nixed the memorization and replaced it with stories that teach simple truths." Why does that concern you?



Yes you need to understand exactly what I mean.

Nothing about you personally concerns me. Easy on the sarcasm. Ask for clarification before assuming my motives and attitude. My comment was much more general than the way you think. 

You made the point that you, as an AWANA leader do not rely only on helping the kids memorize scripture, but you also add personal insight and application. Considering who the potential leaders can be (ie: those who are either anti-reformed confessions or ignorant of reformed confessions, either way unqualified to teach my children) and the simple fact that AWANA leaders are adding personal and authoritative insight "“ not directed at you personally, is why there is a concern. There is nothing wrong with teacher or leader application, all learning settings do this, but the question is the source of the authoritative applications and personal insights. To the kids, the leaders are the authority. They are the respected teachers with the answers.

Kids do not simply get dropped off and memorize scripture and go home "“ you proved this. In reality, as is expected, they are exposed to not just the scripture verses but also teacher insight and application (a form of catechism but without the unity, clarity and often orthodoxy). These churches and teachers are not reformed for a reason. I believe mostly due to ignorance which in that case, why would I allow the ignorant to answer my children´s questions? If it is due to intended disagreement, then why would I allow my children to be taught by those who are in staunch defiance against what I believe to be an orthodox hermeneutic? 

If you are a confessional brother in a confessional church teaching AWANA in a confessional manner, then you are an exception to the norm and God bless you.

Now you may want to re-read my original response in order to understand my point.


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## caddy

Replied to in U2U



> _Originally posted by ChristopherPaul_
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by caddy_
> Chris
> 
> Maybe I need to understand exactly what you mean concerning my statement that read, "œI can't count the times I have nixed the memorization and replaced it with stories that teach simple truths." Why does that concern you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes you need to understand exactly what I mean.
> 
> Nothing about you personally concerns me. Easy on the sarcasm. Ask for clarification before assuming my motives and attitude. My comment was much more general than the way you think.
> 
> You made the point that you, as an AWANA leader do not rely only on helping the kids memorize scripture, but you also add personal insight and application. Considering who the potential leaders can be (ie: those who are either anti-reformed confessions or ignorant of reformed confessions, either way unqualified to teach my children) and the simple fact that AWANA leaders are adding personal and authoritative insight "“ not directed at you personally, is why there is a concern. There is nothing wrong with teacher or leader application, all learning settings do this, but the question is the source of the authoritative applications and personal insights. To the kids, the leaders are the authority. They are the respected teachers with the answers.
> 
> Kids do not simply get dropped off and memorize scripture and go home "“ you proved this. In reality, as is expected, they are exposed to not just the scripture verses but also teacher insight and application (a form of catechism but without the unity, clarity and often orthodoxy). These churches and teachers are not reformed for a reason. I believe mostly due to ignorance which in that case, why would I allow the ignorant to answer my children´s questions? If it is due to intended disagreement, then why would I allow my children to be taught by those who are in staunch defiance against what I believe to be an orthodox hermeneutic?
> 
> If you are a confessional brother in a confessional church teaching AWANA in a confessional manner, then you are an exception to the norm and God bless you.
> 
> Now you may want to re-read my original response in order to understand my point.
Click to expand...


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## rjlynam

Be encouraged, Chris. You certainly seem like a father who truly understands that you are responsible and accountable to God for the upbringing of your children. We in the reformed faith, especially those who homeschool, are often accused of "sheltering our children from the real world". We know that this "IS" the real world, as God desires for our children to experience. And don't think for a minute that your parental control will or should lessen when your children get older. Rather, when they're 12-13 and trained as an adult, look at your child and say "Now, until you are old enough to be on your own (18-19), take my hand, and let me show you the practical applications of everything you've learned heretofore."

We have the great promise from God in Proverbs 22:6 

"Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it. "

[Edited on 9-27-2006 by rjlynam]


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## turmeric

AWANA may be the closest thing to catechesis that kids in a non-confessional church get, and it is the *only* catechesis some kids get. They teach that we are sinners, that we cannot do anything good to make God be alright with our sin, that only Christ's atonement can save us and the instrument is faith...yeah, they give it the Evanjellyfish spin, but it's not too bad, really. Should a Presbyterian or Reformed Baptist send his/her kids to AWANA if there's something better? Obviously not. But God can make a straight line with a crooked stick, and I've seen sticks a lot crooked-er than AWANA.


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## rjlynam

> _Originally posted by turmeric_
> Should a Presbyterian or Reformed Baptist send his/her kids to AWANA if there's something better? Obviously not. But God can make a straight line with a crooked stick, and I've seen sticks a lot crooked-er than AWANA.



I would agree with you if you just replace the word something with nothing.


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## rjlynam

The word nothing, that is.


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## Larry Hughes

It is thoroughly southern baptistic, produced by Lifeway. If you are baptist of reformed kind, like we were, you have to gut the program to the point that its pointless to use other than as a launching platform or skeleton for something much better.

"VERY shallow way of sharing the gospel" is being quite kind. It never actually GIVES the Gospel it gets the work of "praying the sinners prayer" and "doing" into action. It never actually gives the Gospel, that's a misnomer but rather obscures its light by "doing" something, just like alter calls. 

It does make wonderful training for training up children to attend to the manmade sacraments of the s. baptist church; aisle walking, rededication, rebaptism, promise keeper meetings, ad nausem.

A reformed baptist friend/brother of mine found himself in the situation of having to do it. He took the opportunity to teach the Solas and the Gospel, which the kids where getting, the devil didn't care for that and he caught trouble for it from the Awanna cult within his church at the time (which was SB).

My friend was constantly re-teaching his own 8 year old son to correct against it.

I'd stick to the confessions, kids understand a lot more than most give them credit. Patience, a rare fruit of the Spirit in the giddy spirited church today is helpful.

L


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## Ivan

> _Originally posted by Larry Hughes_
> It is thoroughly southern baptistic, produced by Lifeway.



Uh, Larry...produced by Lifeway? That would be a "no".


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## Larry Hughes

My mistake Ivan, I stand corrected. It began back in the 50s I think as a youth program. It's a Lifeway resource not produced by them. Sorry about that confusion, thanks for the clarification.

One other clarification ALL that I wrote was the opinion of reformed baptist directly whom I know and not other reformed folks. They actually have much more beef with it, though I don't disagree with them.

Blessings,

L


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## Ivan

> _Originally posted by Larry Hughes_
> My mistake Ivan, I stand corrected. It began back in the 50s I think as a youth program. It's a Lifeway resource not produced by them. Sorry about that confusion, thanks for the clarification.
> 
> One other clarification ALL that I wrote was the opinion of reformed baptist directly whom I know and not other reformed folks. They actually have much more beef with it, though I don't disagree with them.



Two more clarifications:

1) If you go to the Lifeway website, you will find no material on AWANA. BTW, I do not use Lifeway for any purpose. I know I may be in the minority among Southern Baptists on that count.

2) I am not speaking for or against AWANA. I have no experience with the program and I don't know any Southern Baptist churches that uses it. I'm not saying Southern Baptist churches don't use it. I'm saying the Southern Baptist churches that I have personal experience with do not use the program.

[Edited on by Ivan]


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## Larry Hughes

Ivan,

You are correct. I was always told they were Lifeway and assumed the information correct. I stand corrected again, thanks!

Numerous SB churches I know down here use it without any changes. In fact all that I know do.

At my former Calvinistic SB church they basically took the format that drew children in, which was great. Then applied some of Piper's stuff and the LBCF as the content. So was it really Awana? Yes and no.

That's how we applied it there.

Blessings,

Larry


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## caddy

Well said

I agree 100 %



> _Originally posted by turmeric_
> AWANA may be the closest thing to catechesis that kids in a non-confessional church get, and it is the *only* catechesis some kids get. They teach that we are sinners, that we cannot do anything good to make God be alright with our sin, that only Christ's atonement can save us and the instrument is faith...yeah, they give it the Evanjellyfish spin, but it's not too bad, really. Should a Presbyterian or Reformed Baptist send his/her kids to AWANA if there's something better? Obviously not. But God can make a straight line with a crooked stick, and I've seen sticks a lot crooked-er than AWANA.


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## caddy

This would be a "NO" as well Larry. 

Solas  I do it and catch no flack from leaders or my pastor. To call the Awana's a Cult: 






> _ He took the opportunity to teach the Solas and the Gospel, which the kids where getting, the devil didn't care for that and he caught trouble for it from the Awanna cult within his church at the time (which was SB)._


_




[Edited on 9-27-2006 by caddy]_


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## Larry Hughes

Steven,

A no? It's a fact of history for my friend/pastor you have no personally knowledge of that I do. It cannot be a "no". That's ridiculous. 

The sola's my friend was teaching all but got him thrown out of his church driven by directly, not indirectly, but directly by the Awana's within his church! It really happened.

The biggest beef he had with it was it set up the SB false means of grace train of rededications, rebaptism, etc... his direct assessment.

In fact at length when the head pastor of that church sought to supplant Awana's with Piper's material, they openly rejected it which eventually in no small part led to his leaving due to the friction.

If you want to use, use it. I'm certainly not holding you back.


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## Augusta

I don't understand why anyone would pass their children's theological education off to anyone. We don't depend even on our own church to do it. in my opinion it is the direct responsibility of the parents to train up their children and to teach them in the way they should go. We were actually told as much by elders in our church. 

Maybe we take it very seriously because we grew up in the evanjellyfish model and it was horrible. The difference between what we knew then and what we know now is like night and day. I would never choose that for my children. It is rife with error and sometimes downright heresy. That is why I have in my signature "After darkness, light."


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## rjlynam

> _Originally posted by Augusta_
> I don't understand why anyone would pass their children's theological education off to anyone. We don't depend even on our own church to do it. in my opinion it is the direct responsibility of the parents to train up their children and to teach them in the way they should go. We were actually told as much by elders in our church.
> 
> Maybe we take it very seriously because we grew up in the evanjellyfish model and it was horrible. The difference between what we knew then and what we know now is like night and day. I would never choose that for my children. It is rife with error and sometimes downright heresy. That is why I have in my signature "After darkness, light."



Traci, I agree with alot of what you say. However, would you not allow your kids to attend a gathering, such as Kid's Quest? I mean, how far would you take that "anyone"?

How about the covenant family of believers? Surely they may have some instructional value for parents. Alot of us here at Pilgrim Pres have large families with working dads and homeschooling moms. Having a program such as Kid's Quest would allow mom/dad some time to breathe, possibly be edified in a midweek Bible Study that is going on at the same time.

I personally think a program like Kid's Quest may be of significant value, to augment, not replace, the catechising of of our children. It may not be the same for others, but there are alot of mom's and possibly dad's out there, carrying out the Biblical mandate to "be fruitful, multiply, and exercise dominion" over the creation, who don't get any social interaction on an adult level. I think we, as a covenant family, need to be about pursuing "all the means of grace" to support our fellow saints.

I don't agree that it's the sole responsibility of the parents. I would argue that it's the primary responsibility of the parents, but, as believers, we, as family units, are not "islands".


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## caddy

re-reading back over this thread, I found that I missed this one. I could not agree more. Obviously I have taken some of these comments quite personally, as Chris has mentioned to me already. I appreciate the spirit and scripture rjlynam! It is hard NOT to get a sense of being singled out, with all the negative comments concerning the program. Maybe some are true, but from my own personal perspective, I have nothing but praise for the program. I am involved with it and can only address what is happening in our own program, from our church's perspective and my own perspective which is reformed. I find great satisfication in giving my time to teach, instruct, bond with these children. 




> _Originally posted by rjlynam_
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by caddy_
> ^^^
> 
> Agreed
> 
> If there is ONE HUGE BONE I have to pick with Reformed Thinking it is this: The "I am Superior to you in every way" type thinking.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just for the "what it's worth" value, I consider myself a reformed thinker, but I think it behooves everyone to remember Colossians 4:6 when posting:
> 
> Colossians 4:6 - _Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person._
> 
> This is not a rebuttal to your comment, Steven, just using it as an example of how people shouldn't end up feeling.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Edited on 9-27-2006 by rjlynam]
Click to expand...


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## caddy

Then that is sad indeed. Again, I should clarify that from my own perspective, these things are not happening.



> _Originally posted by Larry Hughes_
> Steven,
> 
> A no? It's a fact of history for my friend/pastor you have no personally knowledge of that I do. It cannot be a "no". That's ridiculous.
> 
> The sola's my friend was teaching all but got him thrown out of his church driven by directly, not indirectly, but directly by the Awana's within his church! It really happened.
> 
> The biggest beef he had with it was it set up the SB false means of grace train of rededications, rebaptism, etc... his direct assessment.
> 
> In fact at length when the head pastor of that church sought to supplant Awana's with Piper's material, they openly rejected it which eventually in no small part led to his leaving due to the friction.
> 
> If you want to use, use it. I'm certainly not holding you back.


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## heartoflesh

Maybe you guys are right after all. The devastating effects of Arminian teachings are beginning to show I think. 









Notice the "mark on the forehead", a tell-tale sign for sure!

[Edited on 9-28-2006 by Rick Larson]


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## LadyFlynt

See I told you it was evil! It's run by aliens to demonize our children!!!!


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## caddy

^^^^

Beautiful !

Thanks Rick


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## Augusta

> _Originally posted by rjlynam_
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by Augusta_
> I don't understand why anyone would pass their children's theological education off to anyone. We don't depend even on our own church to do it. in my opinion it is the direct responsibility of the parents to train up their children and to teach them in the way they should go. We were actually told as much by elders in our church.
> 
> Maybe we take it very seriously because we grew up in the evanjellyfish model and it was horrible. The difference between what we knew then and what we know now is like night and day. I would never choose that for my children. It is rife with error and sometimes downright heresy. That is why I have in my signature "After darkness, light."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Traci, I agree with alot of what you say. However, would you not allow your kids to attend a gathering, such as Kid's Quest? I mean, how far would you take that "anyone"?
> 
> How about the covenant family of believers? Surely they may have some instructional value for parents. Alot of us here at Pilgrim Pres have large families with working dads and homeschooling moms. Having a program such as Kid's Quest would allow mom/dad some time to breathe, possibly be edified in a midweek Bible Study that is going on at the same time.
> 
> I personally think a program like Kid's Quest may be of significant value, to augment, not replace, the catechising of of our children. It may not be the same for others, but there are alot of mom's and possibly dad's out there, carrying out the Biblical mandate to "be fruitful, multiply, and exercise dominion" over the creation, who don't get any social interaction on an adult level. I think we, as a covenant family, need to be about pursuing "all the means of grace" to support our fellow saints.
> 
> I don't agree that it's the sole responsibility of the parents. I would argue that it's the primary responsibility of the parents, but, as believers, we, as family units, are not "islands".
Click to expand...


I don't know anything about Kids Quest. I would probably do some research on them and my husband would be the final word on it. He takes the kids theological training very seriously. Kids are impressionable. We are very picky about even recreational activities.

Our preference is for those activities to be in our church body or at home.


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## jaybird0827

> _Originally posted by Augusta_
> 
> I don't know anything about Kids Quest. I would probably do some research on them and my husband would be the final word on it. He takes the kids theological training very seriously. Kids are impressionable. We are very picky about even recreational activities.
> 
> Our preference is for those activities to be in our church body or at home.



Exactly! That's the way we did it when our son was growing up. And I think we need to be even more careful at this point in church history, with all the evanjellyfish nonsense that's being proliferated out there.






Hmmm ... did I finally kill this one?

[Edited on 9-28-2006 by jaybird0827]


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## blhowes

> _Originally posted by jaybird0827_
> Hmmm ... did I finally kill this one?


To bump, or not to bump, that is the question


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## jaybird0827

Now Bob, why did you do that?


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## blhowes

> _Originally posted by jaybird0827_
> 
> 
> 
> Now Bob, why did you do that?


I wasn't sure whether you'd be glad or sad about having killed the thread, so I thought it was worth a potential bump, just in case.

Awana give you the option to decide if this thread continues or ceases, so Awana stop posting in this thread.


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