# Illustrating Worldliness?



## py3ak (Feb 16, 2008)

Some recent threads have made me think that perhaps we are not all on the same page as far as what constitutes worldliness. Hence this little poll. Choose the iconic American location which in your view best illustrates the essence of worldliness.


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## Sonoftheday (Feb 16, 2008)

I choose the Whole Continent because it seems as sort of the All of the above answer.

Las Vegas, Wall Street, and Washington DC bring to mind Greed, and Money is the root of all kinds of Evil.

Las Vegas, and Hollywood bring to mind Sensuality and the rampant adultary of our fallen man.

They all bring to mind Romans 1 and the created that man chooses to worship rather the Creator.

_Golden Corral_ brings to mind the absolute worst food I've tasted right behind _Furs_


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## Seb (Feb 16, 2008)

I chose other.

Pre-Katrina New Orleans (French Quarter specifically) always struck me as the epitome of worldliness.

All manners of sinfulness available 24 / 7. And most, it seemed, with the blessings of the RCC.


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## py3ak (Feb 16, 2008)

Assuming I had been tough and hadn't placed an "other" category in there, would you have chosen Las Vegas?


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## Seb (Feb 16, 2008)

Yes. 

Except...I've never been to Vegas. I have been to NO many times. Mostly before I was converted.


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## jaybird0827 (Feb 16, 2008)

I voted for the 1st 2.


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## JBaldwin (Feb 16, 2008)

I choose Wall Street, but I really think of all of New York City. Wall Street only represents one aspect of worldiness. New York City has it all, the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life all wrapped up in one place.


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## Seb (Feb 16, 2008)

Pre-Katrina New Orleans:

a...Largest, and most decadent, Mardi Gras celebration in the country. 
b...People, partying in the streets year round, celebrating debauchery. 
c...Public (street) nudity accepted and sometimes encouraged.
d...Public drunkenness acceptable and drugs everywhere. 
e...High level of prostitution.
f...High level of violent crime.
g...High level of false religion - Voodoo and the RCC 'owned' the area.
h...Broken infrastructure. Poor public hygiene.
i....Many, many homeless.
j...Aggressive street cons everywhere.
k...Very corrupt police and politicians.

Every time I go there I remember just how bad this world can be.

The only redeeming qualities in the area were the food (especially crawfish) and the New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary.


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## a mere housewife (Feb 16, 2008)

I voted for Golden Corral, and Other. Golden Corral is where most of us are encouraged from the time we are little that there should be no restraint on our appetites for anything not inherently wicked (this also promotes a labeling of things that should be done in moderation as inherently wicked, and a worldly way of judging evil and of enjoying good).

I voted other because I think the worst examples of worldliness are those that have crept into the church, when we use God Himself for our earthly ends -- whether as J Baldwin cited, those are the lust of the eyes, the flesh, or the pride of life.


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## Zenas (Feb 16, 2008)

What is Golden Corral?


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## Presbyterian Deacon (Feb 16, 2008)

It's a toss up between Vegas and Hollywood, but I voted Vegas. 

"Sin City" indeed!


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## Anton Bruckner (Feb 16, 2008)

got to be Las Vegas. Las Vegas is where pure hedonism reigns. The other places such as Wall Street, Hollywood etc is where ego and greed reigns.


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## Sonoftheday (Feb 16, 2008)

> What is Golden Corral?



Only the second most disgusting buffet I ever forced to eat at as a child.


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## Zenas (Feb 16, 2008)

Shoney's Breakfast Buffet is delicious. Am I in sin?


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## Seb (Feb 16, 2008)

Sonoftheday said:


> > What is Golden Corral?
> 
> 
> 
> Only the second most disgusting buffet I ever forced to eat at as a child.



It's even worse as an adult.


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## KMK (Feb 16, 2008)

I always think of worldliness as that aspect of the world that is wise in its own eyes. So I would add the US University System.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Feb 16, 2008)

I've visited Las Vegas, Hollywood, Wall Street and most of the 50 United States, parts of Canada and Mexico and the Caribbean, and...dined at...Golden Corral.  And I work five days a week in Washington, DC. 

Hard to choose.  I've long felt that the 911 tragedy was a judgment upon America and the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon (I was near the latter at the time) seem to represent two of America's primary idols (the love of $$ and confidence in ourselves, and our military strength). Las Vegas and Hollywood also symbolize some of the idolatry to which Americans are given over to. 

And I certainly see Katrina-New Orleans in the same light.

America is diverse enough to have many gods, having constitutionally rejected the First and Second Commandments, and the Establishment Principle, enshrining pluralism instead.

As a nation, we have said, we will not have Christ to reign over us, and all the various idols that some locales seem to represent are merely, in my opinion, manifestations of the same sin, rebellion against God, that we turned into a national virtue at Philadelphia in 1787.


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## lwadkins (Feb 16, 2008)

My home; all the treasures I have stored up on earth (materialism). This is not intended as the self-flagellation that many in our society revel in, simply it is reflection on past decisions made poorly and sincere disappointment and repentance of non Christlike behavior. I may not display the level of worldliness that many of the places on the list demonstrate, but I can never lose sight of the fact that it is there!


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## Sonoftheday (Feb 16, 2008)

> I always think of worldliness as that aspect of the world that is wise in its own eyes. So I would add the US University System.



Ohh the sin I was led into by my own pride and self proclaimed wisdom. I consider my dropping out of college to be an action of God's Providence that kept me from the hell I was pridefully heading too.


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## Civbert (Feb 16, 2008)

Zenas said:


> Shoney's Breakfast Buffet is delicious. Am I in sin?



No, but your soul is in grave danger!


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## Dr Mike Kear (Feb 16, 2008)

Seb said:


> Pre-Katrina New Orleans:
> 
> a...Largest, and most decadent, Mardi Gras celebration in the country.
> b...People, partying in the streets year round, celebrating debauchery.
> ...



This is spot on. I've been to Mardi Gras on numerous occassions as a missionary. The stuff you can see on Bourbon Street at 11 p.m. on Fat Tuesday is the worst of the worst. Public displays of homosexual acts performed in the street.  Children paraded through debauchery. Mothers with children and husbands in tow baring their breasts for the crowd. Intense levels of blasphemy, pharmakia, idolatry, etc.

If Mardi Gras had been on the list, I might have chosen it. However, the people who were engrossed in all the degrading acts at Mardi Gras were people from all over the country who showed up there to do things they would never do in their own hometowns. Therefore, I guess my vote for the whole continent is still valid. Mardi Gras is the whole continent in an unrestrained microcosm.

_But I do love the crawfish (and the wonderful coffee and beignet at Cafe du Monde)._


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## kvanlaan (Feb 16, 2008)

I voted Las Vegas. I've never been but have a friend whose parents live there and the stories he's told me were just shocking. Between the advertisements for brothels and hookers everywhere and the temples to greed and entertainment all over the place, I think they've got greed and pleasure locked up like nobody's business.

Is it wrong to have enjoyed Golden Corral? I haven't been in at least 10 years but went in college for cheap, large meals. (I did find Furrs a sin against God and man though, especially the one in OKC. ) And Shoney's rocks.

BTW, I am 6'1" and about 250 lbs. - see any connection?


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## MICWARFIELD (Feb 16, 2008)

I chose Follywood.


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## No Longer A Libertine (Feb 16, 2008)

Sonoftheday said:


> I choose the Whole Continent because it seems as sort of the All of the above answer.
> 
> Las Vegas, Wall Street, and Washington DC bring to mind Greed, and Money is the root of all kinds of Evil.
> 
> ...


Go ahead and classify Hollywood beneath greed as well; sensuality, affectionately known as T and A in this town, is simply a means to an end. Because depraved man is by nature a pervert it is profitable to prostitute out some on screen flesh.


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## Herald (Feb 16, 2008)

Worldliness is not a place but an attitude that proceeds forth from the heart of man.
*
1 John 2:15-16 * 15 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.


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## a mere housewife (Feb 16, 2008)

I'm separating from all you Shoney lovers.

Since the questions was about worldliness, not wickedness, I do think that Golden Corral is as 'worldly' as any other locale-- you'd think people's palates would save them, but it is as susceptible to the charge of being the scene of people making a god of their belly as any other. It is worldly to have a mentality of mere appetite or gluttony in enjoying things; and most people are unconscious of worldliness on this level-- it seems equally dangerous as the kind even sinners would recognize. There's a scene about this in Perelandra, unfortunately I can't remember it, about the fruits. I didn't mean any Shoney lovers any offense -- I don't think it's sin to go there any more than to go to D. C. it made me laugh and I thought it deserved to be voted for at least once (esp as I have no acquaintance with the other places).

[edit: Beyond this there is the worldliness of being ruled in even eating and drinking by idols, whether those be our appetites or what have you: "Whether ye eat, therefore or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God." "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die." This seems fundamental to worldliness.
Also I submit whether the food at Golden Corral can objectively be eaten to the glory of God. (smiley)]


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## py3ak (Feb 16, 2008)

Yes, worldliness is not a place. The point is to get a feel for what people think of as being worldly. So Las Vegas would stand for chambering and wantonness, Hollywood for entertainment and recreation, Wall Street for avarice, Washington for ambition, Golden Corral for gluttony (try going to Golden Corral or Luby's or Shoney's in McAllen, TX). This is not a poll for "worldliest place in the U.S." As I said, what I want to do is understand what people on this board think of as worldliness.


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## Sonoftheday (Feb 16, 2008)

> I chose Follywood.



My Pastor calls it Hellywood.


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## kvanlaan (Feb 16, 2008)

> My Pastor calls it Hellywood.



So does Stephen Hamilton, in the Allentown, PA Free Pres. Church. I always find it gives the term more emphasis when it is done with a N Ireland accent...


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## No Longer A Libertine (Feb 16, 2008)

Sonoftheday said:


> > I chose Follywood.
> 
> 
> 
> My Pastor calls it Hellywood.


Come on now, believers are here too.


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## kvanlaan (Feb 17, 2008)

Paul wrote Romans to the church there, so there were believers there too. But who can deny that Rome was wicked enough to be the "Hellywood" of its day?


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## No Longer A Libertine (Feb 17, 2008)

kvanlaan said:


> Paul wrote Romans to the church there, so there were believers there too. But who can deny that Rome was wicked enough to be the "Hellywood" of its day?


Hollywood is a reflection of the culture not the culture itself, it would be powerless if the depraved aspects of its lure were no consumed and embraced. It is a symptom of the the great disease of the fall and not the source itself.


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## Sonoftheday (Feb 17, 2008)

No Longer A Libertine said:


> kvanlaan said:
> 
> 
> > Paul wrote Romans to the church there, so there were believers there too. But who can deny that Rome was wicked enough to be the "Hellywood" of its day?
> ...



That backs up my answer of the whole continent.


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## No Longer A Libertine (Feb 17, 2008)

Sonoftheday said:


> No Longer A Libertine said:
> 
> 
> > kvanlaan said:
> ...


Try the whole world, the American film industry was once the fifth largest economic money pool on the planet, it remains in the top 10 at present.

The world eats up American movies and come here to seek fame and fortune or artistic expression.
It is a reflection of the American pop-culture the world devours.


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## kvanlaan (Feb 17, 2008)

> Hollywood is a reflection of the culture not the culture itself, it would be powerless if the depraved aspects of its lure were no consumed and embraced. It is a symptom of the the great disease of the fall and not the source itself.



Yes, yes, true enough. But the question was what best _illustrates_ worldliness and well, this place actually produces _moving_ illustrations. SO I'd say it qualifies. 

But yes, I'd have to agree with your sentiments.


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## Poimen (Feb 17, 2008)

I voted other thinking of (as above) New Orleans.

But I also thought of Vancouver which is said to have the least amount of Christian influence (read: churches) in NA. 

For that matter, one might mention other international locations: Amsterdam, Mecca etc.


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## BJClark (Feb 17, 2008)

I would have to say other, but then I think they all apply (except for maybe Golden Corral, as that is about the only one that doesn't expand worldwide) all the others pretty much have arms extending all the various sins throughout the entire world and into almost every household, through television, radio, newspaper, and even internet advertisements.


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## Civbert (Feb 17, 2008)

kvanlaan said:


> > Hollywood is a reflection of the culture not the culture itself, it would be powerless if the depraved aspects of its lure were no consumed and embraced. It is a symptom of the the great disease of the fall and not the source itself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When I think of Hollywood, I think of the actors, producers, and directors in the film industry. That's the culture I'm thinking of. The parties and debauchery that Hollywood is legendary for; going all the way back to the beginning of the film industry, Hollywood has been notorious for homosexuality, audultery, all kinds of devient behavoirs and hedonism.


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## BJClark (Feb 17, 2008)

No Longer A Libertine;



> Hollywood is a reflection of the culture not the culture itself, it would be powerless if the depraved aspects of its lure were no consumed and embraced. It is a symptom of the the great disease of the fall and not the source itself.



While I agree with this in part, it is not necessarily the reflection of the over all culture. It does however, promote many aspects of sin in the culture, making sin appear more appealing and acceptable to the masses.

As a whole, it shows how sinful men compare themselves more to other sinful men, than to Christ. Well, so and so in Holywood does this, so it must not be WRONG for me to do. 

This movie star had plastic surgery and yet she is physically attractive already, thereby legitmizing the it's okay not to be content with how God created you mentality, that permeates throughout the world.

If this movie promotes adultery as fun and having no consequences, then something must be wrong with the person who demands there be consequences when their spouse commits adultery.

The sad truth is, even though man may believe the lies, it doesn't change the truth that there are consequences, not just in this world, in most cases, but for eternity.


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## puritan lad (Feb 17, 2008)

Is Golden Corral meant to be a joke here? I would hope so.

I love Golden Corral, and will let no man judge me in food or drink (sounds like good advice that I heard from somewhere). Why is Coor's brewery absent from this list because they make beer that leads to drunkeness?

If someone has a problem with gluttony, don't blame the restaurant? It like blaming trees for p0rnography because they make the paper that it's printed on.


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## py3ak (Feb 17, 2008)

Scott, I think that I should have made the poll question clearer. The question is *not*, "What is the worldliest place in the U.S?" A lot of the responses so far seem to indicate that this is what people were thinking.

Rather the question is, "Which place best illustrates the true nature of worldliness?" And so I tried to pick places which stand for something (though they don't stand for things so obviously as I would have thought). We've had several threads lately that have sort of hinged on how people define worldliness, and I was hoping to get a feel for what kind of PB consensus there might be on the _nature_ of worldliness. However, I begin to think that my poll was not a sufficiently clear way to do this.

To me Las Vegas represents gambling, drunkenness, lasciviousness, dissipation. If any of you have read Petronius' _Satyricon_ you will know what I mean. It is not that you have to go to Las Vegas to obtain these things: most of them go on in most locations on most Friday nights.
Hollywood represents the entertainment industry --with the sloth, indolence, self-indulgence, concern about trivial things, and appetite for gossip that accompany an immoderate use of such recreations. A Puritan might have referred to stage plays in this connection.
Wall Street was meant to stand for those who are married to the pursuit of property, whose money is their life, whether they are honest or crooked in their attempt to get it: a vote for Wall Street would to me sound like a vote for avarice as the soul of worldliness.
Washington, D.C., of course, stands for politicking, for grasping at power, for greed in a non-financial sense and ambition. If the poll had drawn from Shakespearian phrases instead of geographical locations I would have had the line, "No man's pie is free from his ambitious finger".
Golden Corral (I have been there countless times) stands for the "abundance of bread", for gluttony, and by extension for the more "respectable" forms of self-indulgence. Within the Christian church there is reproof for those who live in chambering and wantonness; those who will not work are (very properly) preached against. But many a thunderer from the pulpit against other men's sins has very obviously not learned self-control in the matter of eating. It is not that going to Golden Corral necessarily implies that this describes you: it is that it was the "all-you-can-eat buffet" that seemed to me to be most widely extended throughout the U.S. Naturally, this might show nothing more than how little I have traveled. 

At this point it's probably too late and the poll results are skewed beyond repair, because I didn't make the point of the original question clear enough. But it has served at least this far, that it is quite obvious that there are different views of what constitutes worldliness. I think coming to a fuller understanding of worldliness would not only help us in some of the practical discussions that we have on here, but would also help in our Christian walk. I think one of the subtle tricks that are played on us by our three great enemies is that we all have a tendency to define sin in terms of what other people are doing. And so in fundamentalism, they preach against what Hollywood and Las Vegas represent: but they seem oblivious to the worldliness in their midst. But if the Fundamentalists do it, I would be very surprised if the Reformed don't do it to some extent as well, if you and I don't engage in that very practice, at least unconsciously and sporadically.


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## bob (Feb 17, 2008)

I'd guess I would have to vote for the whole continent. In thinking about worldliness, I have always thought that Wesley's definition of the world as "anything that cools one's affection for Christ" was quite good. Thus while we certainly acknowledge that certain places appear to owe their existence to meet the needs of sin, we can also probably acknowledge that the nice little home wrapped inside a white picket fence owned by our lost neighbor might be as apt an expression of the world as a brothel or casino.

The fact that we exist in the world means that temptation lurks around every corner. I have driven through Las Vegas and was impressed by some it architecture, although I had no desire at all to gamble away what the Lord has been pleased to give to me. On the other hand, put me inside a sporting shop or woodworking store and I might have to really work not to covet the contents.

In regard to the all your can eat buffet, I think that the Christian can enjoy a bountiful table whether in his dining room or at the buffet and rejoice in God's provision. The Scriptures share in a few places the bountiful fare of God's blessing through great feasts and laden tables. I am not sure that the concept of diverse fare and the ability to eat what you desire are fundamentally worldly. Gluttony and drunkeness are sins because they exhibit not the characteristic of self control. The buffet can indeed be a temptation to the glutton, but I am not sure that would equate the concept of a buffet as an expression of worldliness.


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## DMcFadden (Feb 17, 2008)

Either the whole continent or an X-ray of my heart.


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## py3ak (Feb 17, 2008)

Mr. Leverton, perhaps the attempt to pick iconic and representative places was misguided, but it seemed like a good idea at the time. I appreciated your post very much, as I do think that much which simply seems _standard_ in our society is in fact rampant worldliness. That was one reason for this thread: I wanted to challenge myself and others to see worldliness not just as something "out there" in dens of iniquity, but very much closer to home. With regard to the all-you-can-eat buffet I was hoping that my post #41 had made clear that I am not against food or restaurants or abundance, but simply using a place where gluttony obviously does occur to stand in for the sin itself.


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## Blue Tick (Feb 18, 2008)

I chose other. 

The reason why is because I live in Salt Lake City which I see as no different than Vegas, Hollywood, or the French Quarter. Salt Lake has it's share of homosexuals, crime, etc, and not to mention the idolatrous Mormons who mock God with their blasphemous lies. In my humble opinion, Salt Lake deserves God's judgment just as much as Vegas or Hollywood.


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## jawyman (Feb 18, 2008)

I believe that because the US has lost its moral compass the rest of the continent loses direction as well.


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