# Is John Piper trying to sell us something?



## shackleton (May 3, 2008)

I have been reading JP's book, "Don't Waste Your Life!" It is good on focusing on the gospel and our need for Christ and his atonement but it also pushes the reader to do more and be more. This is what I am wondering about. He is trying to motivate the reader to "do more for God." 
He is pushing this need as if he were selling something. It is like the old camp or tent meetings where everyone is worked up into a tizzy and crying and make rash promises to God that they will dedicate their lives to the mission field or being a pastor or just doing some sort of work for God. Then a few days later reality and the day to day humdrumness of life sets in you wind up feeling guilty and go back to church to try and drum up that same feeling that was stirred at camp and it never comes. Or maybe you do try to be a missionary or a pastor and it does not work out and wind up feeling just as bad because a promise was made to God. 
I am just wondering if this sort of thing is healthy, spiritually. As a Pentecostal I spent several years frustrated because I was always drummed up _to do something great for God_ but in the end was just frustrated most of the time because there was no clear indication what to do and whatever I tried did not work out and it definitely was not like the preacher had told that it would. After I became reformed it was freeing (but disappointing) to realize that life was just not that exciting and doing things for God usually amounted to just living life the way Christ wanted that is to be a good witness. 
The Christian life was not like it is predicted and promised on TBN. Not everyone can do _great things for God_. What would that include anyway? Raising kids, working a job, staying faithful when things do not go as planned. 
Maybe I am reading past bad experiences into what he is writing and drawing from 15 years of trying to do "great things for God" and being mostly frustrated by it all and disappointed by reality and see this sort of mentality as what caused it.


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## Philip A (May 3, 2008)

This fits with the pietistic impression I've gotten of Piper. It seems like most of these modern neo-Calvinists, in trying to straddle the fence between modern Evangelicalism and historic Protestantism, have yet to recover the Protestant doctrine of vocation.


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## Davidius (May 3, 2008)

shackleton said:


> I have been reading JP's book, "Don't Waste Your Life!" It is good on focusing on the gospel and our need for Christ and his atonement but it also pushes the reader to do more and be more. This is what I am wondering about. He is trying to motivate the reader to "do more for God."
> He is pushing this need as if he were selling something. It is like the old camp or tent meetings where everyone is worked up into a tizzy and crying and make rash promises to God that they will dedicate their lives to the mission field or being a pastor or just doing some sort of work for God. Then a few days later reality and the day to day humdrumness of life sets in you wind up feeling guilty and go back to church to try and drum up that same feeling that was stirred at camp and it never comes. Or maybe you do try to be a missionary or a pastor and it does not work out and wind up feeling just as bad because a promise was made to God.
> I am just wondering if this sort of thing is healthy, spiritually. As a Pentecostal I spent several years frustrated because I was always drummed up _to do something great for God_ but in the end was just frustrated most of the time because there was no clear indication what to do and whatever I tried did not work out and it definitely was not like the preacher had told that it would. After I became reformed it was freeing (but disappointing) to realize that life was just not that exciting and doing things for God usually amounted to just living life the way Christ wanted that is to be a good witness.
> The Christian life was not like it is predicted and promised on TBN. Not everyone can do _great things for God_. What would that include anyway? Raising kids, working a job, staying faithful when things do not go as planned.
> Maybe I am reading past bad experiences into what he is writing and drawing from 15 years of trying to do "great things for God" and being mostly frustrated by it all and disappointed by reality and see this sort of mentality as what caused it.





I had the same struggles as a Charismatic. As you and Phillip mentioned, the Reformation's doctrine of vocation is a source of freedom. Having not read the book in question, I can't comment on the question whether you may be reading past experiences into his writing. If he really does sound like those old preachers, however, remember that he has lots of great things to say but that some not-so-great things may need to be ignored.


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## Barnpreacher (May 3, 2008)

From Chapter 8 in _Don't Waste Your Life_, p. 131-32:



> It would be a mistake to infer from the call to wartime living in the previous chapter that Christians should quit their jobs and go to "war" - say, to become missionaries or pastors or full-time relief workers. That would be a fundamental misunderstanding of where the war is being fought. Of course, the battles are raging spiritually (without bombs or bayonets) among unreached peoples of the world where the King of kings has sent his selfless "troops" with the gospel of peace and is gathering a happy people for himself. This is the glorious work of frontier missions. I will argue later that it is a magnificent calling; and I pray that thousands of you who read this book will hear it and go to those front lines.
> 
> But make no mistake, the "war" that I have in mind when I speak of a "wartime mind-set" or a "wartime lifestyle" is not being fought along geographical lines. It is being fought first along the line between good and evil in every human heart, especially the hearts of Christians where Christ has staked his claim, and where he means to be totally triumphant. The "war" is being fought along the line between sin and righteousness in every family. It is being fought along the line between truth and falsehood in every school....between justice and injustice in every legislature....between integrity and corruption in every office....between love and hate in every ethnic group....between pride and humility in every sport...between the beautiful and the ugly in every art...between right doctrine and wrong doctrine in eveyr church...and between sloth and diligence between coffee breaks. It is not a waste to fight the battle for truth and faith and love on any of these fronts.
> 
> The war is not primarily spatial or physical - though its successes and failures have physical effects. Therefore, the secular vocations of Christians are a war zone. There are spiritual adversaries to be defeated (that is, evil spirits and sins, not people); and there is a beautiful moral high ground to be gained for the glory of God. You don't waste your life by _where_ you work, but _how_ and _why_.



I'm guessing you haven't reached this chapter yet with the way your question is worded?

Is Piper trying to sell us something? No, but he is calling us to faithfulness. Faithfulness in our home. Faithfulness in our churches. Faithfulness in our secular jobs. Faithfulness in the ministry for those that are in it.

I don't even begin to understand your comparison to the point Piper is trying to make and TBN. It just doesn't even make sense. He is calling some to lay down their lives for the gospel. Some have to do that, you know. That is part of the means by which God ordained the gospel message to go out to every tribe and tongue and nation. Piper isn't telling you to feel guilty if you aren't one of those individuals, but he is calling you to be faithful to the setting that God has placed you in (be it the mission field or working at McDonald's).

I guess I just don't get how so many of you read right past what Piper is trying to say. It really isn't that difficult to get, unless you just don't want to. Maybe there are too many presuppositions brought to Piper books when some of you read them. If that's the case I would just say, don't bother reading them.


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## shackleton (May 3, 2008)

The implication is that if you are doing anything other than, "A great work for God," then you are "wasting your life." Hence the name of the book.


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## Barnpreacher (May 3, 2008)

shackleton said:


> The implication is that if you are doing anything other than, "A great work for God," then you are "wasting your life." Hence the name of the book.



Did you read the quote above? Are you there in the book yet? He calls one to faithfulness not just on the mission field or in the pulpits, but in everything they do.

He doesn't imply "a great work for God". That's an implication you're reading into the book. 

How far along are you in the book, if you don't mind me asking?


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## cih1355 (May 3, 2008)

God wants us to be obedient to Him, to live a life that glorifies Him, and to remain faithful to Him. Is there something more that God wants us to do?

God doesn't want every Christian to be a pastor of a church or to be a missionary in a foreign country. God has different callings for each of us.


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## shackleton (May 3, 2008)

I think I must have posted at the exact same time you did because your post was not there. 

I am just thinking practically. That call to do more and be more and it comes ultimately with no clear direction and that leads to frustration. I have tried it Piper's way for the past 15 years and it lead no where. Real freedom came when I discovered that the world needs ditch diggers. 

Those sermons and speeches along those lines just leave me with the impression that they are trying to sell me something. It is that same notion of "selling" that reminded me of TBN. 
Don't get me wrong I like Piper very much, it just reminds me of that camp meeting mentality that does not work for the most part in real life.

I am at chapter 4. The book seems like it is written to the people of his generation who are getting ready to retire and fish and play backgammon for the next 20 years since this is how the book started out and that was the focus of the conference message he gave on the same topic.


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## Davidius (May 3, 2008)

Barnpreacher said:


> I guess I just don't get how so many of you read right past what Piper is trying to say. It really isn't that difficult to get, unless you just don't want to. Maybe there are too many presuppositions brought to Piper books when some of you read them. If that's the case I would just say, don't bother reading them.



Hey Ryan,

I noted in my response that I haven't read the book, and that my response was contingent upon the validity of the OP's claims (and that it applies wherever such ides are found, of course). Piper taught me the doctrine of election and I'm not in a hurry to find problems with him.


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## DMcFadden (May 3, 2008)

Davidius said:


> I noted in my response that I haven't read the book, and that my response was contingent upon the validity of the OP's claims (and that it applies wherever such ides are found, of course). Piper taught me the doctrine of election and I'm not in a hurry to find problems with him.



David,

It has been my observation that Piper is one of those polarizing figures who you either love or hate. He has the same effect in his own denomination. The battles over Greg Boyd's open theism have created quite an "I hate Piper" contingent in the General Conference Baptist ranks.

Frankly, along with Sproul (another one of those people folks like to love or hate), a most provident Heavenly Father saw fit to expose me to both of these fine scholars at an important time in my Christian experience. They, more than the Reformation and Post-Reformation dogmaticists, helped me out of my evangelical slumber to discover the truth of the doctrines of grace.

Should the Lord lead me away from the ministery where I currently serve, my desire would be to find a solid Reformational church (either Reformed Baptist or conservative Presbyterian) where confessionalism was faithfully observed. For now, however, you will not hear me utter a word of criticism of either of these servants of God. I am not blind to their faults, just disinterested in piling on over their (in my mind) minor errors.

And, with equal candor, looking back on the churches I have served (associate and solo pastor for more than a decade in the small and medium, and a decade as sr. pastor in one that was large) and the fairly large organization I currently head where we have been for more than a decade now, I am not worthy to tie the shoes of either Piper or Sproul in terms of their kingdom impact. Praise God for men like these! They dwarf me by their scholarship, productivity, and Godliness. Nit-picking Piper is an errand for someone more capable than I.

Now if you want to pick on Grymir or Pergy, that's another matter. Just show the way . . .


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## Greg (May 3, 2008)

Philip A said:


> This fits with the pietistic impression I've gotten of Piper. It seems like most of these modern neo-Calvinists, in trying to straddle the fence between modern Evangelicalism and historic Protestantism, have yet to recover the Protestant doctrine of vocation.



I think I know what you're referring to, but could you, or someone else, elaborate on the doctrine of vocation? Thanks.


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## BJClark (May 3, 2008)

shackleton;



> Then a few days later reality and the day to day humdrumness of life sets in you wind up feeling guilty and go back to church to try and drum up that same feeling that was stirred at camp and it never comes.



Why should one feel guilty for living the humdrum that is life if they are living in obedience to Christ?



> Or maybe you do try to be a missionary or a pastor and it does not work out and wind up feeling just as bad because a promise was made to God.



One shouldn't try to be a Missionary or a Pastor unless they are called to do so, if they "try" and are not called then they do more disservice for God than service.

For me raising my kids and teaching them the things of God, is how I am serving God..when I was working outside the home in an office I did so to the best of my ability...working the hours I was paid to work, not goofing off, or getting online to chat with friends and soforth..so no matter what you do in your life, be it a garbage man or salesman, or ditch digger work a days labor for a days pay..

Am I doing 'great things for God'? I do what God has called me to do, so in that I am faithful and obedient to the tasks He has called me to do, I am doing "great things" for God, is it great as in sharing the Gospel with millions of people around the world? I doubt it, but is that 'great'? If so by whose standard of greatness are you looking to be measured by? Man's or God's? 

Didn't the widow giving her mite give much greater than the rich man? 

What the world considers greatness isn't the same as what God considers greatness. 

Stop fretting over if you will do something the 'world' considers great for the kingdom of God and live your life as God is wanting you to live your life..in obedience to where you are now..and learn to praise God in what the world considers the mundane things of life..because that is where contentment can be found..if your always worried about what 'great' things you can do, then how can you praise God for where He has you now?


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## Pergamum (May 3, 2008)

Hey now! No picking on the Pergster!




Some thoughts:

--If Piper is a pietist (and if this is a bad thing) then I would rather take Piper over some of the Truly Reformed.

--The Apostle Paul always tries to stir us up towards good works. Nuthin' wrong with that. 

--If a Christian loves others, and if good works glorify God, then Piper is not "selling you something", he is loving you by motivating you to do what you should be doing.

--We SHOULD be enthused and motivated to serve. We should be PSYCHED! 


If you don;t like Piper you can read much of the same spurring on to good action in the Puritans, such as Willaim Secker's Nonsuch Professor, who repeatededly tells us that we should do more because we are more. 



The symbol of Christianity is the Cross, not a cushion, the arena not the armchair.


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## Pergamum (May 4, 2008)

Selection from Ralph Winter's "Commitment to a Wartime Lifestyle" which Piper uses:


The Queen Mary, lying in repose in the harbor at Long Beach, California, is a fascinating museum of the past. Used both as a luxury liner in peacetime and a troop transport during the Second World War, its present status as a museum the length of three football fields affords a stunning contrast between the lifestyles appropriate in peace and war.

Brad Gill, my son in law, tells me that on one side of a partition you see the dining room reconstructed to depict the peacetime table setting that was appropriate to the wealthy patrons of high culture for whom a dazzling array of knives and forks and spoons held no mysteries. On the other side of the partition the evidences of wartime austerities are in sharp contrast. One metal tray with indentations replaces fifteen plates and saucers. Bunks eight tiers high explain how the peacetime capacity of 3,000 gave way to 15,000 on board in wartime.

How repugnant to the peacetime masters this transformation must have been! To do it took a national emergency, of course. The survival of a nation depended on it. The essence of the Great Commission today is that the survival of many millions of people depends on its fulfillment.

But obedience to the Great Commission has more consistently been poisoned by affluence than by anything else. The antidote for affluence is reconsecration. Consecration is by definition the "setting apart of things for holy use." Affluence did not keep Bordon of Yale from giving his life in Egypt. Affluence didn't stop Francis of Assisi from moving against the tide of his time.

Will wartime priorities work?

The missionary tradition has always stressed a practical measure of austerity and simplicity, as well as a parity of level of consumption within its missionary ranks. But the same lifestyle is often seen as impractical among people back home. Widespread reconsecration to a reformed lifestyle with wartime priorities is not likely to be successful among homefront believers:

- so long as the Great Commission is thought of as impossible to fulfill; 
- so long as we think that the problems of the world are hopeless or that, conversely, they can be solved merely by politics or technology; 
- so long as our home problems loom larger to us than anyone else's; 
- so long as people enamored of western culture do not understand that Chinese and Muslims can become evangelical Christians without abandoning their cultural systems--just as the Greeks did in Paul's day; 
- so long as modern believers, like the ancient Hebrews, think that God's sole concern is the blessing of our nation; 
- so long as well-paid evangelicals, both pastors and people, consider their money a gift from God to spend however they wish on themselves rather than a responsibility from God to help others in spiritual and economic need; 
- so long as we do not understand that he who would seek to save his life shall lose it.


Ours is a save-yourself society if there ever was one. But does it really work? 

Underdeveloped societies suffer from one set of diseases: tuberculosis, malnutrition, pneumonia, parasites, typhoid, cholera, and so on. Affluent North America has virtually invented a whole new set of diseases: obesity, arteriosclerosis, heart disease, strokes, lung cancer, venereal diseases, cirrhosis of the liver, etc. And we're more than ever plagued with the social diseases of drug addiction, alcoholism, divorce, battered children, suicide and murder. Take your choice. Our divorce courts, prisons, psychiatric offices and mental institutions are flooded. In saving ourselves, we have nearly lost ourselves. How hard have we tried to save others?

The 20,000 members of the Friends Missionary Prayer Band of South India support 500 fulltime missionaries in North India. If my denomination (with its unbelievably greater wealth per person) were to do that well, we would not be sending 500 missionaries but 65,000. In spite of their true poverty, these Indian believers are proportionately sending over 130 times more cross-cultural missionaries than we are!


The statistics are always embarrassing: We spend as much on chewing gum annually as we do on missions. Our annual giving to foreign missions is equal to the amount we spend in a 52-day period on pet food. The comparisons aren't fair, of course, since fewer of our society are giving to the fulfillment of the Great Commission than are buying pet food. But the pattern of our society is clear--we're much like Ezekiel's listeners:

"They come as though they are sincere and sit before you listening. But they have no intention of doing what I tell them to; they talk very sweetly about loving the Lord, but with their hearts they are loving money…

"My sheep wandered through the mountains and hills and over the face of the earth, and there was no one to search for them or care about them…

" 'As I live,' says the Lord God, '…you were no real shepherds at all, for you didn't search for them [my flock]. You fed yourselves and let them starve…Therefore,' the Lord God says: 'I will surely judge between these fat shepherds and their scrawny sheep…and I will notice which is plump and which is thin, and why!' "

--Ezekiel 33:31; 34:36; 34:8,20,22b


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## shackleton (May 4, 2008)

BJClark, 
In trying to say that I am missing the point, you are making my point. You are saying what I was trying to say. 

These sorts of rallies, (I think the book is based on a conference that was given), are designed to rile people up to go do "great things for God" but I know of a lot of people who wind up feeling guilty because it never worked out for them. The idea that one cannot simply be a mechanic, one has to be a _Christian_ mechanic and leave gospel tracks in the glove box or bother people at work about Jesus. Other people are making my point better than I am, that is about vocation and living the day to day life as a Christian what it really means. Raising kids, working a dull, boring job with non-believers, this is what most people are called to. AND THEY ARE NOT WASTING THEIR LIVES BY DOING SO.


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## Covenant Joel (May 4, 2008)

shackleton said:


> BJClark,
> In trying to say that I am missing the point, you are making my point. You are saying what I was trying to say.
> 
> These sorts of rallies, (I think the book is based on a conference that was given), are designed to rile people up to go do "great things for God" but I know of a lot of people who wind up feeling guilty because it never worked out for them. The idea that one cannot simply be a mechanic, one has to be a _Christian_ mechanic and leave gospel tracks in the glove box or bother people at work about Jesus. Other people are making my point better than I am, that is about vocation and living the day to day life as a Christian what it really means. Raising kids, working a dull, boring job with non-believers, this is what most people are called to. AND THEY ARE NOT WASTING THEIR LIVES BY DOING SO.



I'm afraid you have completely missed Piper's point. Refer to Barnpreacher's comments above (especially the quote from DWYL Ch. 8). Piper is not suggesting you go do "a great thing for God." That's something you are reading into this. He is not saying you have to leave gospel tracts around all the time in order to not waste your life. Read chapter 8. He encourages people to live faithfully as Christians in whatever their vocation may be. 

You really are reading a lot into Piper that, In my humble opinion, is not there. And reserve some judgment till you've finished the book.


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## Blue Tick (May 4, 2008)

> think I know what you're referring to, but could you, or someone else, elaborate on the doctrine of vocation? Thanks.





Reading the excerpt from Piper's book he doesn't imply nor bind anyone's conscience that they need to be "doing something great for God". What he is doing is, which has already been pointed out, is be faithful to fight the good fight. Some have been called to be missionaries, pastors, and elders while others have not. In no way are those who are not called to be fulltime ministers or elders inferior. This is the point that Piper is making from the excerpt above. Fight the good fight, be faithful in your calling, and understand that it's a war to apply these biblical principals; this is what Piper is discussing. 

How does that apply practically? The verses below give us the instruction.

The doctrine of vocation can be summarized in these verses.


1Thessalonians 4:9-11



> 9 Now concerning brotherly love you have no need for anyone to write to you, for you yourselves have been taught by God to love one another, 10 for that indeed is what you are doing to all the brothers throughout Macedonia. But we urge you, brothers, to do this more and more, 11 and to aspire to live quietly, and to mind your own affairs, and to work with your hands, as we instructed you, 12 so that you may walk properly before outsiders and be dependent on no one.




1 Timothy 5:8



> But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.


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## jwithnell (May 4, 2008)

I've heard Mr. Piper preach on this topic (I haven't read the book) and I believe he is trying to call Christians away from the life-as-entertainment mindset that so permeates our society. The world tells us we are to base everything on our selves and our own well-deserved "good life" that culminates in a retirement of leisure and fun. Trying to rear children who honor God, trying to enter the workplace and work for God's glory -- that takes hard work and discipline; and trying to be fruitful even in old age, serving one another in love, advancing the kingdom of Christ -- these are worthwhile goals for our lives.


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## Wannabee (May 4, 2008)

Being great for God results in doing great things for God. But, as has been said, we are not the ones to judge what that greatness truly is. How much impact will we have for the kingdom? Only God knows. A shaky old layman in a poorly attended Methodist church preached a weak sermon in the midst of a snow storm, striving to do all things to the glory of God. Out of that sermon, that many here would probably balk at, C. H. Spurgeon was brought to his knees before the Creator and repented of his rebellion. The Prince of Preachers was born again that night. Measure your greatness by your obedience to and how much you emulate your Savior. That's the message Piper's proclaiming.


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## 2 Tim 4:2 (May 4, 2008)

shackleton said:


> Not everyone can do _great things for God_.




Why not? Availability is as much part of it as the calling. Some folks say they are not called but maybe they should ask themselves "If God were to send me to the worst place possible in my mind would I be willing to go?"

There is no way to be sure of what God has called us to do unless we are willing to do anything and go anywhere at any expense. What are we willing to sacrifice in order to follow Christ. The average Christian says 'I will go this far". The ones who accomplish great things always say "I will go anywhere and do anything for you Lord."

The Rich Ruler only wanted to go so far. And he walked away sorrowful. 


Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: *but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.*


The servant who did nothing dishonest with his talent but merely held on to it was found unacceptable by the Lord. And his talent was taken from him and given to those who did somethig with it and gave the Lord a return. Does simply living day to day in obedience bring a return? Does being a "good witness" fulfill the approrpiate return on God's gifts? 

Those who know God will be driven to service for God in strength, courage, and energy. An energetic person is never satisfied to do just a little bit.


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## shackleton (May 4, 2008)

Maybe Piper should have given the book a different title, I agree it is mostly about toughing it out through life's storms and tells the reader to stand faithful despite how hard circumstances get. The problem is that he every so often throws in the phrase, "Don't waste your life". So how much does one have to do to_ not_ waste his or her life? 

The book is based on a conference of the same title. He first berates the American idea to retire early and collect seashells for the next 20 years of your life and says that this _is_ wasting your life, and I agree it is. The book also seems like it is a sermon designed to motivate young and possibly old to dedicate their lives to God by possible serving in the mission field. He then gives examples of people in the bible who stuck it out even when life got tough and implies that we should do the same. Then it has the underlying message that is very Piperesq (sp) of God is most glorified in us when we are most glorified in him. 

I am not saying I do not like the book or JP, I like both very much and pray that I could have half the passion for God that he has but I think the book has a purpose and that is to motivate people, probably those just out of high school or those who are able to retire early to not waste their lives and think of possibly becoming a missionary. 

The book I have came with a CD of his sermon by the same title from the conference of the same title. 

[video=youtube;DKNFbZa9cH4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKNFbZa9cH4[/video]

p.s. I am up to chapter 6


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## turmeric (May 4, 2008)

I watched the clip - it doesn't sound to me like he's arguing against secular vocation as much as against retirement, I agree, a twenty-year retirement spent in completely self-absorbed leisure sounds like a waste. I must make clear, I'm not talking about taking a trip or engaging in some leisure activities, but every stage of life offers opportunities to serve God in one's church and one's community. He's arguing, I think, for a kingdom-focused life.


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## christianyouth (May 4, 2008)

_"Fifth, the Puritans have taught me to see and feel the transitoriness of this life, to think of it, with all its richness, as essentially the gymnasium and dressing-room where we are prepared for heaven, *and to regard readiness to die as the first step in learning to live.*_ - J.I. Packer in a Quest for Godliness.

Isn't this what Piper is trying to show us? I need all the reminders I get that life is short to stop me from wasting it. 


Packer goes on to call this "an historic Christian emphasis-- Partristic, Medieval, Reformational, Puritan, Evangelical-- *with which the Protestantism that I know has largely lost touch.*"

Maybe it seems radical because, like Packer said, most of Protestantism is so out of touch with this.


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## Wannabee (May 4, 2008)

shackleton said:


> The book also seems like it is a sermon designed to motivate young and possibly old to dedicate their lives to God by possible serving in the mission field. He then gives examples of people in the bible who stuck it out even when life got tough and implies that we should do the same. Then it has the underlying message that is very Piperesq (sp) of God is most glorified in us when we are most glorified in him.
> 
> I am not saying I do not like the book or JP, I like both very much and pray that I could have half the passion for God that he has but I think the book has a purpose and that is to motivate people, probably those just out of high school or those who are able to retire early to not waste their lives and think of possibly becoming a missionary.



I suppose the question is, "Is there anything wrong with that?" Or maybe, "Is this a valid biblical message?" 

As far as I'm concerned more preachers need to be calling fathers off their couches and kids off their video games and exhorting them to get real about life. Our culture is full of a bunch of spoiled brats who have subscribed to the whole entitlement socialism that's come to dominate our society. Let's face it, "You deserve a break today," "Do it for you," "Go ahead, you deserve it" ... blah, blah, blah. It's all about self-esteem anyway, isn't it?

We are called to die to self. Is that radical? Yes! What part of our lives are we attempting to hold on to? Then that is an idol, and must be torn down. As Christians we are promised that we will suffer, be hated by the world and our families, will be persecuted, will be reviled, etc. 

Instead we have churches chewing up pastors and spitting them out dejected and broken. We have pastors walking into churches and ripping them apart with the precision of a buldozer, rather than shepherds loving and nurturing the sheep. We have an average 2 years or less that pastors stay in one church. Churches split over carpet colors, ties for choir members, pews or chairs and whether or not to have a coffee kiosk in the foyer. 

Our insatiable desire for the sweet things of life has more and more of us insulin dependent each year. Our children, the ones not hooked on ritalin or other drugs that dumb down their ability to handle the pressures of life, focus on graduating from college and getting a great paying job with benefits. Not that those things are wrong, but where is God in the thought process? For most of them He's waiting at the sideline for them to get the job so they can be good tithers. That's there part in it all.

As Piper has said, we readily sell the glories of a heritage of dying to self and living for Christ for a bowl of oatmeal. Where are the men who are convinced that the greatest blessing God can bestow on man is to use him for God's greatest glory, regardless of the ramifications? Where are David's bodyguards? Where are Gideon's soldiers? Where are the mighty men of valor? Where are the men who truly believe that to live is Christ, to die is gain?

I assume we can be pretty sure that's at the heart of Piper's message; and I salute him for calling us all to answer the challenge.


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## christianyouth (May 4, 2008)

Amen Joe. And for the Christian I realize that there is much more joy in a kingdom centered life then in a life entirely absorbed by entertainment. 

But I sympathize with you, Eric, because I've seen that type of preaching and it's *really* bad. It had me convinced that God wanted me to be a missionary, though I had no desire to be a missionary. It had me convinced that He wanted me to be a missionary in India! So even to this day when someone says, "You have so much potential", I know immediately what they are saying, "you have so much potential for full time ministry."Then every time I have to explain to them that I have no desire to go into full time ministry. I pick up the vibe that they consider me lazy and callous.

Because of that, I fear those sermons that are designed to get people to enter into full time ministry. Thankfully, I don't think this is what Piper had in mind.

I love the Reformed concept of Vocation. Make websites to the glory of God, dodge punches to the glory of God, lecture on philosophy to the glory of God, deliver mail to the glory of God.. So freeing


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## shackleton (May 6, 2008)

*I finished reading the book*

I really enjoyed chapter 8. That is the point I was trying to get at it just took someone smarter than me to say it. 

The rest of the book reminded me of a missionary conference, one like the many I have attended in my life. I have spent a good portion of my Christian life with the desire to be an Adoniram Judson with all the motivation that went along with it but life just not working in that direction. I was the one who was motivated but not called and have finally had to just come to grips with that fact. The book irritated me because it was trying to motivate the reader to do what I had finally come to grips with what I was not called to do. 

I guess I am meant to be a firefighter who drives a firetruck and a paramedic and not someone working in some sort of ministry. (The sad thing is I know so many people who do not particularly want to be in ministry who are and they just kind of fell into it). My life reminds me of a struggle between me and God, where I am saying, "Why can't I? And him just saying NO!" I have to learn to be content with what I have and be thankful. I am doing exactly what I was called to do.


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## Wannabee (May 6, 2008)

Dear Erick,

Perhaps part of the struggle is that you may not recognize that you ARE "working in some sort of ministry." Ministry isn't relegated to those with white collars and seminary degrees. One doesn't have to proclaim Christ from the pulpit to minister the Word of God. 

Consider the great commission - "go" is a participle. The point is, "make disciples." Or, "In your going (wherever you are) make disciples..." One of the greatest ministers I know is one of our elders. He's an electrician by trade and works in a local paper mill. But he's constantly challenging others to face the fact that they need to repent or will spend an eternity in hell. He constantly shares with me how inadequate he is, and how he gets frustrated. He needs to grow in this. But HE IS DOING IT. Most of us aren't. I know that, other than preaching, I don't share the Gospel as much as he does. I'd pay dearly to have an army of men like him. 

Embrace your calling _as_ your ministry brother. Praise God for the realm He's graciously given you. You have a unique opportunity to strive for the kingdom and bring glory to God right where you are. There are enough people dying and going to hell all around us to not feel guilty about not going to unreached peoples in other lands. There are enough people in our churches who don't undertand the wonders of dying to self and being living sacrifices to keep one busy for a thousand thousand lifetimes. The tragedy isn't when we won't go, but when we won't minister in our going, wherever that may be.


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