# Culture and the Church



## Peters (Apr 22, 2005)

Does the Scripture allow for any cultural influence on the form of corporate worship?

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but what hasn't 

Thank for any comments


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## Scott Bushey (Apr 22, 2005)

Culture never influences the RPW. However, culture will definately affect our understanding of how the principle _fits_ precisley into the church. In other words, our view is skewed/sinful, no matter how perfect we think it is.


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## Peters (Apr 22, 2005)

Hi Scott

Can you give me an example of how the out working of the Regulative Principle has been affected by a culture?


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## Scott Bushey (Apr 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Peters_
> Hi Scott
> 
> Can you give me an example of how the out working of the Regulative Principle has been affected by a culture?



It happens unintentionally...........


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## The Lamb (Apr 22, 2005)

Culture does impact the way people worship.

For instance, your typical starched WASPY, cold hearted, stiff, by the book reformed style, is much different than a reformed church in africa. 

The more important issue is not to allow culture to dictate the Gospel, more than how culture relates to the RP


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## Peters (Apr 22, 2005)

I appreciate your posts. 

I'm really looking for examples. What would it look like? Does the Scripture deal with the form of corporate worship?


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## Solo Christo (Apr 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> For instance, your typical starched WASPY, cold hearted, stiff, by the book reformed style


Please explain (btw, I've never heard of the term or acronym: WASPY)


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## The Lamb (Apr 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Solo Christo_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by The Lamb_
> ...




The form of worship differs in certain cultures. Not the object. The object ALWAYS has to be Christ.

For instance, the music is different in other countires. The instruments are different. The singing style is different.

GO to 1st reformed church in Holland Michigan. OR any in the midwest, then you will understand my stereotype.

WASP = WHITE, ANGLO, SAXON, PROTTY


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## sastark (Apr 22, 2005)

I think first, we must define "culture", because I would say that culture certainly affects how we worship. 

For example, in America we have worship services in English, but in the Congo, they have worship services in Swahili. Since language is a defining characteristic of culture, we can say that culture affects how we worship.

Another example: When my dad (who is a presbyterian minister) went to the Congo to ordain a congolese minister, the native minister (whose name is Pastor N'Kulu) had a robe made for him by his wife. The robe was made of curtains and it was purple. Poverty, in this instance, affected the way this minister was ordained. 

I could probably come up with a couple other examples, if you are interested, Peters.


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## NaphtaliPress (Apr 22, 2005)

The basic elemental features of worship should remain the same, but the circumstantial will be affected by the culture. Time and place of meeting, the tunes used in their singing, their method of singing, etc.


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## Peters (Apr 22, 2005)

Are we saying that culture affects the form (what it looks like) and not the essence (what it is) of worship? If yes, what does the Regulative Principle say to this? 

Thanks for your points guys.


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## RamistThomist (Apr 22, 2005)

> WASP = WHITE, ANGLO, SAXON, PROTTY [/quote[
> 
> For the record, I am not a WASP. I am Celtic and Italian. This is a good thread, btw.


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## NaphtaliPress (Apr 23, 2005)

FYI For what it's worth I have a large section out of James Bannerman's Church of Christ on elements (rites/ceremonies) and circumstances in public worship at:
http://www.naphtali.com/bannerman1.htm


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## Scott Bushey (Apr 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by NaphtaliPress_
> FYI For what it's worth I have a large section out of James Bannerman's Church of Christ on elements (rites/ceremonies) and circumstances in public worship at:
> http://www.naphtali.com/bannerman1.htm



Bannerman!


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 23, 2005)

The distinction between _elements_ of worship (which only God and not the church may ordain or legislate) and _circumstances_ (which fall under the purview of "the light of nature and Christian prudence") is extremely important. 

Westminster Confession of Faith:



> Chap. I
> VI. The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man´s salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men.[12] Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word:[13] *and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature, and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.[14]*
> 
> Chap. XXI
> ...



There may be different languages spoken or read (noting the principle of known tongues referenced above) just as there are different translations of God's Word (some of which are faithful and some are not), tunes may be a matter of preference or style (suitability for worship must be sought but there is subjectivity in this area), ministers may have their own styles of preaching, etc., etc.

The Solemn League and Covenant aimed at _uniformity_ of worship, doctrine and church government in the three kingdoms (whose cultures had differences but much in common), and likewise we ought to desire that Christians everywhere would be thus united in those areas, but there is certainly room to allow for practical differences in worship that do not affect the elements but rather have to do with circumstances.


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## NaphtaliPress (Apr 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by NaphtaliPress_
> ...



Yep.  Sorry no time to have done more.


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## Peters (Apr 25, 2005)

Andrew,



> and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature, and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.



If this part of the confession that you marked out is talking about the form of corporate worship, is, therefore, the confession intimating that there _is_ a standard _form_ of corporate worship?

Thanks for your chiming in.

[Edited on 4-25-2005 by Peters]


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Apr 25, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Peters_
> Andrew,
> 
> 
> ...



Well, the men who put together the Confession beforehand published a directory of public worship, which was _not_ a liturgy but a guide making reference to the prescribed elements of worship and giving wise counsel as to their application. 

It's worth studying the Directory itself to consider where the Divines thought there should be liberty and flexibility. For example, they say that the Lord's Supper is to be frequently observed but leave the specifics up to the judgment of individual sessions. Additionally, it discourages weddings on the Lord's Day but does not forbid them. It also gives sample prayers, but they are not meant to be read verbatim but to serve as models. So, the Directory is different from, say, the Anglican Book of Common Prayer, which dictates what prayers are to be read on a date certain, for example. Thus, the Directory is intended to advance uniformity in worship but does not attempt to make all worship services identical but rather encourages adherence to guidelines that incorporate prescribed elements and apply principles of Christian prudence. 

Does this help?


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## Peters (Apr 25, 2005)

Ah yes, "guidelines and principles". Thanks Andrew, this helps get to the heart of it.

Is there a tendency in reformed churches in America to palm off pre 60's, white middle class culture as the biblical standard for corporate worship under the guise of "guidelines and principles", or does that just happen in England? 

Genuinely curious


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## pastorway (Apr 25, 2005)

The church in America is very focused on itself, sad to say, and often misses the rest of the Body around the world. And the reformed church often thinks that our "form" of worship is the Biblical standard - mistaking form for elements. The elements of worship are indeed the same no matter what culture the church is in. But the form will change, obviously, from society to society. 

Mistaking form for elements is really an evidence of fundamentalism, in a bad sense. 

Phillip


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## Peters (Apr 25, 2005)

Thanks Phillip, i appreciate your honesty. In my experience, many of the reformed churches here in England (there are not many actually) have no place for secondary issues. Everything is worthy of "biblical seperation". Consequently, unity is not to be found in the Gospel, but in an absolute adherence to a cultural standard imposed upon Scripture, which is really no biblical standard at all. 

By the way, i noticed that you're part of the FIRE. Do you know pastor Ken Murphy of Southside Bible Church in Colorado and pastor Rick Anderson who is located in LA i think?


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## pastorway (Apr 25, 2005)

Don't know them personally but am glad to be part of FIRE. I also noticed right off that you are a part of FIEC and know several churches in England who are a part and doing some good work.

And I agree with your comments noting that from what I see in America _evangelical_ churches do not separate enough and _reformed_ churches separate too much over too little!

And since our church is a part of the Fellowship of Independent_ REFORMED EVANGELICALS_ - I guess we better be careful!!

Phillip


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## Robin (Apr 25, 2005)

Here's an explanation of the United Reformed approach to worship....

Understanding the Liturgy of the
Oceanside United Reformed Church

Rev. Daniel R. Hyde

Many of us have come to the Reformed Church recently from a myriad of Church backgrounds and styles. The experience goes a little something like this, right? You are confronted with the Biblical teaching that it is God who has sovereignly, eternally elected you without any regard to your works, goodness, or decision. Then comes Christ´s atoning work for those whom the Father has given Him, the effectual power and calling of the Holy Spirit of those elect and died-for-ones, and then comes their preservation and perseverance in grace until they reach glory.

But where do you go to Church? All you know is Maranatha style music, contemporary style services and fellowships. The idea of "œtraditional," cold services in with a "œliturgy" is not your cup of tea nor was it your intention when you submitted to God´s Word on the above doctrines.

The purpose of this brief pamphlet is to explain to you why we at the Oceanside United Reformed Church worship the way we do, whether you come from a non-Reformed background or whether you are a veteran of Reformed worship. To understand historic Reformed, and we think, Biblical, worship is to understand Himself and our response to His grace to us in Christ. Reformed worship is passionate, led by the Holy Spirit, and glorifying to our Father in heaven.

What is a Liturgy?
"œLiturgy" is almost a four-letter word amongst most Christians today. But, in fact, our English word "œliturgy" comes from an ancient Greek word for "œservice." From this Greek word we get the simple meaning and idea of "œan order of worship."

Every Church, therefore, uses a liturgy. It is not something only a few churches have, such as the Roman Catholics or "œtraditional" Churches, but is used in every worship service in the world. So whether or not a particular Church has a more structured or loose service, or whether a "œliturgy" is printed in the bulletin and followed or not, doesn´t make some Churches liturgical and some not, as all have a liturgy every time there is worship. Anyone who thinks that a particular Church gathers together and is led by the Spirit through the praise band is unfortunately mistaken. 

The question we must ask ourselves, as Christians seeking to worship the Father in "œspirit and truth" is not whether we have a liturgy, but since we have one let us put it in the light of Scripture to see whether it is Biblical or not.

In our particular congregation we follow the cry of the Reformers, "œReformed according to Scripture." Our Protestant forefathers did not "œthrow the baby out with the bath water," but went "œback to the sources" (Latin: ad fontes) of Scripture and looked to the ancient Church´s liturgies as testimonies of the truths laid down in Scripture. The Reformers stripped the Medieval Mass of its idolatry and extra-Scriptural content; they did not re-invent the wheel. Therefore, what you experience as you worship with the Oceanside United Reformed Church is a fully Biblical service in the same vein as the historic liturgies of the ancient Church, which were revived during the 16th century Protestant Reformation by the Reformers. And we hope to communicate these eternal principles of God´s Word, as passed down through the centuries, in a meaningful way to a 21st century world. It is not our desire to simply reproduce old tradition for the sake of being traditional, but we seek to be always Reformed, always Reforming. The old wine of the Word must be placed in new wineskins.

Who Decides What is Placed in the Liturgy?
The particular elements, or things that we do, in the order of worship are clearly commanded to us by God Himself or deduced by solid principles of interpretation from the inspired Word of God, "œby which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear" (Heb 12:28). We call this the "œRegulative Principle;" that is, God through His Word regulates how we are to worship. This is the meaning of the Second Commandment. The one true God who has commanded us to worship Him alone (First Commandment) also tells us the way we are to do this (Second Commandment).

This also brings to mind the principle of the sufficiency of Scripture. God´s Word is sufficient, for it alone is our guide for teaching, theology, and doctrine, and living, practice, and life. Therefore, if His Word is sufficient for our salvation and Christian life then it surely is all we need in order to worship Him as He desires and deserves. And since we seek to please an audience of one, our Triune God, it is only when worshipping according to how He wants to be worshipped that our worship is pleasing to Him. Therefore, God decides what is placed in the corporate service of worship. Jesus Christ alone is the only "œworship leader" of His Church as Psalm 22:22-26 so beautifully states for us.

What is Placed in the Liturgy?
The acceptable elements of the worship of the Triune God are, broadly speaking, elements of the Word, the Sacraments, and Prayer (Acts 2:42).

Under the Word there is the call to worship (ex: Ps 95), the reading of the Law/Scripture and preaching of the Word of God (1 Tim 4:13), the absolution/declaration of pardon after the reading of the Law (1 Jn 1:9; Mt 18:18; Jn 20:23), and God´s greeting (Rev 1:4-5) and benediction (Num 6:24-26; 2 Cor 13:14). Under the Sacraments there is the administration of Baptism and the Lord´s Supper according to Christ´s commands (Lk 22:17-20; 1 Cor 11:23-26). Under the broad element of Prayer is the giving of alms, or the offering (1 Cor 16:2), which is in Biblical terms, the paying of a vow of thanks, as well, there are a plethora of Scriptural types of prayers: the pastoral prayer (1 Tim 2:1), confession (Ps 51), adoration (Ps 8), and congregational singing, especially of the inspired hymn-book of the covenant people, the Psalter (Eph 5:19; Col 3:16).

Why is the Reformed Liturgy Structured the Way it Is?
How we worship God is a reflection of what we believe about God and what we believe He has revealed to us. We believe the Bible is clear in teaching that our God is a sovereign, covenant-making God. He first initiated creation, then came to the rescue after man´s fall into sin by beginning the covenant of grace in Genesis 3:15, and guided His people through history to the climax of redemption: Jesus Christ. Because of our sin and depravity, God always initiates worship because we never would apart from His Spirit calling us to do so. Thus Reformed worship reflects the Scriptural teachings of God´s sovereignty and holiness, our horrible blindness in sin, and God´s condescending to us in grace and mercy. Therefore we do not call our worship either "œtraditional" nor "œcontemporary" worship, but "œcovenantal worship." And just as in covenants, one side speaks and the other responds, so too in worship there is this dialog between our great God who speaks to us in grace and our response to Him in gratitude.

Because of this our service is not structured after 19th century revivalism in which there is an extended period of "œworship" then the message, and then the altar call (a substitute for the sacrament of the Lord´s Supper); but our service transcends all cultures, times, and peoples as it is Biblically structured. This is why we have the "œcall-response" structure or style, in which the minister, in the place and name of Christ, calls us to worship, then we respond in praise, God greets us, and we extol His marvelous name. God then speaks His Law and we response in humble confession of our many sins; but God speaks His pardon in Christ and we exclaim with thanksgiving. He then speaks His preached Word and we respond in prayer and offering; finally, God has the final word as He does the first, with His blessing as we depart to serve Him.

What is the Purpose of a Biblically Reformed Liturgy?
By placing an abundance of Scripture before us, a Reformed liturgy focuses our minds and hearts upon the glory of God in Christ, while taking our minds off of ourselves. The Reformation slogan, echoing Romans 11:33-36, of "œTo God alone be the glory" is our driving goal in worship. He gets the praise, He gets the blessing. We do not gather to be blessed but to bless Him (of course a great blessing is experienced by us as a result!). A Biblical liturgy gets our focus off of this world and onto the hope of the next. It calls us to actively participate and not to be an observer. It shows us the unity of God´s redemptive work by tying Old Testament promises and New Testament fulfillment´s together. By using an abundance of Scripture, organized in an orderly way, we are reminded and comforted every week that God´s Law has been satisfied by the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ, that His righteousness has been imputed to us, that God has graciously pardoned all of our sins, and that He has adopted us as His children.

Conclusion
In an age of the microwave mentality, of the sound byte, of the headline news, of the craziness of a consumer society, we at the Oceanside United Reformed Church gather twice on the Lord´s Day to set aside our six days of labor, of worry, and of anxiety in order to participate in something that is larger than us, that has been around longer than us, and that fills our hearts with true fulfillment. The Psalmist describes the worship of the Church best, to conclude, when he says

Praise the LORD!
For it is good to sing praises to our God; 
For it is pleasant, and praise is beautiful. (Ps 147:1)


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## Peters (Apr 26, 2005)

That's great, Robin. Since this is the order of your own church, could you breakdown what this order of worship actually looks like. 

My church is undergoing some great changes and one of them is the order of the Lord's Day worship. 

Pastor Way,

Were you at the last FIRE conference? Will you be at the next one?


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## Robin (Apr 26, 2005)

Marcos,

Here is a link to my church website - a sample of the liturgy:

http://www.christreformed.org/resources/liturgy1.shtml?main

Here are hard-copies of sermons; lectures; liturgies:

http://www.christreformed.org/resources/index.shtml?main

If you have any questions or inquiries, I invite you to E mail the pastors, there.

Robin

[Edited on 4-26-2005 by Robin]


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## Peters (Apr 27, 2005)

Thanks.


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