# Membership Dues for the Puritanboard?



## C. Matthew McMahon (Dec 18, 2005)

Membership Dues for the Puritanboard?



We have been thinking about how to keep it fair with everyone on the board, and the cost of the board.

The board costs roughly $600 a year.

We have, right now, $110.05 donated to the board.
We need another $490.

We were tossing around the idea of a $20 yearly membership dues for everyone who joins the board, and for those who have already joined. 

We also thought about taking the "lurking" feature away so that membership for the board is simply a privilege for those who want to be here. Or, we could create a "lurking" membership for those who contact us about the board and simply want to lurk.

What are your thoughts?

The New Year is right around the corner and we need to come up with a fair way of raising funds for the board.


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## LadyFlynt (Dec 18, 2005)

I prefer a free board...but if costs are really an issue...this is the ONE board that I believe is worth it.


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## Swampguy (Dec 18, 2005)

I am willing to give. Where do I send the check or paypal? But I don't want to see it as requried to be on the board. I can't always afford $20 but I will give what I can just let me know where.


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## Me Died Blue (Dec 18, 2005)

I like the idea better of seeing if a number of current members would be willing to commit to something like that, either for a definite or indefinite amount of time. I personally would be willing to, so my reservation about supporting universal membership dues has nothing to do with that, but rather the fear that it would move the board at least somewhat further toward a small, private "club" rather than an open Reformed community that has the potential to influence and bless many people.

That is also why I will say I definitely do _not_ like the idea of taking the "lurking" feature away, since as has been mentioned countless times in discussion on the board's purpose, nature and state at the time, there are many more people quantitatively speaking who are edified and educated by the board in that manner than their are people who post, and I cannot see how taking that away could ultimately be for the better. While we all could not agree more on our supreme commitment for giving and receiving such blessing and education is through the Church, it is the case regardless that the internet is a forum today in which much is seen and many are influenced, and having a publicly-viewable network of discussions from a community committed to sound, biblical, Reformed truth is thus a very good thing to have online.


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## ReformedWretch (Dec 18, 2005)

I am willing to pay $100 a year if I can find a few others who will make that comittment this can be done. I know many of you cannot do that but maybe a few can? If you can U2U me, when we get six I will let Matt know. If I don't get 5 U2U's I'll drop the idea.


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 18, 2005)

I would rather the board was supported by donations. It is not our desire to have to charge for membership; however, the donations are not coming in. Even though the cost is just under a grand a year Matt and I cannot pull the financial load, and the cost will eventually grow as the board stacks up more data and more members join. 

Here's the way I see it. Many people frequent this board daily. It is a valuable resource as well as entertainment. Everyone I know spends at least $20 a month on some sort of less than profitable entertainment; whether it be computer games (purchases or rental), movies (Theater or rentals) or going for a burger and fries. Would it not be more profitable to your spiritual well being to invest a portion of that here?

As well, the oversight from this board comes from our church plant. There are no excess funds.........

[Edited on 12-19-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## Puritan Sailor (Dec 18, 2005)

Perhaps we can try the theological "journal" idea again? Online or print. We can have some articulate folks here on the Board write some articles for monthly or quarterly issues. The subscription fee for the journal could go to the Board.


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## Average Joey (Dec 18, 2005)

Other-Donations

I had really no idea the board needed some money to help run.I knew that the whole Puritan`s Mind website as a whole did, however.How can we help pay Mr. McMahon?


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## fredtgreco (Dec 18, 2005)

I think donations should support the board.

If it cannot be made viable, I would suggest that we archive the current board and start from scratch, which would allow for a much cheaper server (I think).


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## Puritan Sailor (Dec 18, 2005)

Is the budget for A Puritans Mind and Puritan Board the same? Or are they seperate entities?


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 18, 2005)

If the denomination and church that has oversight of PB does not think it is worth underwriting at least some of the cost, then I think it is a tough sell to charge for membership. Get x number of members to give y per year, maybe a donors circle?* But don't charge for membership; at the least don't charge for lurking. To be honest, charging for membership rather than relying on donations smells like the kiss of death.

*Give a free PB coffee cup or something; a new one each year--I have a complimentary cup from The Westminster Project with Westminster Divine Edmund Calamy on it. Offer a cup with a Scottish divine on it and you'll get some money! Maybe..


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 18, 2005)

I think Jerrold Lewis can tell us whether an online journal is something that is worthwhile, from the standpoint at least of raising any support for the board. From my recent experience I can tell you folks able to write top notch material are pretty tapped, so it will not be easy. Managing such a publication brings its own time and management commitments as well.


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## Puritan Sailor (Dec 18, 2005)

You may also have to get legal help here too ( Fred???). If someone pays 20 bucks in dues, and they get banned, then you will be faced with some dilemmas. You may have to refund the money (the easiest solution) or you could get sued for taking someones money then booting them off, just to get their money. Just some more things to think about (courtesy of my smart wife  ).


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## Henry from Canada (Dec 18, 2005)

I really do not know what this board should do.

However, I would like to give a few comments:

1) If you eliminate the lurking option, random surfers might lose the ability to gain valuable information about Calvinism . Some of the posters here show real wisdom. 

2) If you eliminate the lurking option, people Googling may not be to locate PB as easily.

2) If you decide to charge membership fees, you might end up with 'groupthink.' People with worthwhile dissenting viewpoints may feel this board is not worth it. 

3) If you decide to charge memberships fees, you may want to allow a trial membership for free. I suspect many people are unwilling to pay upfront to join a new discussion group. 

4) A question: Would it be less expensive to have a usenet group or some other type of newsgroup?

5) If you want more members, what would happen if you eliminated the membership application process?

Would you just get more random surfers posting anti-Calvinist messages, looking for a fight?
Or, would random surfers be encouraged to jump into the debate right away, get involved, and stay?

6) What really is the precise purpose of this board? 

If it is to promote Christianity, then maybe you should have no upfront fees and minimal membership requirements. The long-term members can pay the bills.

If it is to socialize, then that opens a can of worms.

These are just my comments. I am still undecided about the PB.

The comments on this board, however, have provoked a lot of thought. Therefore, I think this board has been a blessing to me.


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## panta dokimazete (Dec 18, 2005)

I am an IT Director with some background in systems and scalability - what is the breakout of your costs per month or year?



Hosting:

SW:

HW:

This is a good BB software - have seen it utilized extensively across the web.

http://www.vbulletin.com/index.php


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## SolaScriptura (Dec 18, 2005)

I like the idea of simony... sell moderatorships and, for those who really want to pony up the dough, you could even sell an administratorship.

I, for one, would be willing to consider a sizeable donation in exchange for the office of "Supreme Administrator." 

[Edited on 12-19-2005 by SolaScriptura]


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## Pilgrim (Dec 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Me Died Blue_
> I like the idea better of seeing if a number of current members would be willing to commit to something like that, either for a definite or indefinite amount of time. I personally would be willing to, so my reservation about supporting universal membership dues has nothing to do with that, but rather the fear that it would move the board at least somewhat further toward a small, private "club" rather than an open Reformed community that has the potential to influence and bless many people.
> 
> That is also why I will say I definitely do _not_ like the idea of taking the "lurking" feature away, since as has been mentioned countless times in discussion on the board's purpose, nature and state at the time, there are many more people quantitatively speaking who are edified and educated by the board in that manner than their are people who post, and I cannot see how taking that away could ultimately be for the better. While we all could not agree more on our supreme commitment for giving and receiving such blessing and education is through the Church, it is the case regardless that the internet is a forum today in which much is seen and many are influenced, and having a publicly-viewable network of discussions from a community committed to sound, biblical, Reformed truth is thus a very good thing to have online.


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## Pilgrim (Dec 18, 2005)

> _Originally posted by SolaScriptura_
> I like the idea of simony... sell moderatorships and, for those who really want to pony up the dough, you could even sell an administratorship.
> 
> I, for one, would be willing to consider a sizeable donation in exchange for the office of "Supreme Administrator."
> ...


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## ChristianasJourney (Dec 19, 2005)

in my opinion $20 is too high for a message board membership. Somewhere between $5-10 would be more appropriate.

And yes, I believer it very well could be the kiss of death. People don't like paying fore message board memberships and they don't understand the costs involved.

[Edited on 12-19-2005 by ChristianasJourney]


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Dec 19, 2005)

Patrick - that is an exceedingly good point on the whole legal thing.

APM and the Puritanboard are completely separate entities. Monies for APM are used for APM, and materials sent out. PB monies are used just for the PB.

What I *really* don't want to see happen is that we archive this board to start all over again. That, I think, would be psychologically painful. I don't like the idea of having to begin again after two years of posts, and the actual usage of people going back and researching archived data. I'm not sure that would work.

The PB runs $56 a month. We pay it monthly.

I'd have no problem taking this board, integrating it or uploading it into a better board (upgrade), and continuing from there if there is a cheaper solution. But we have lots of posters who exponentially increase the size of the board daily (by 200 posts on average). I don't want to run into all the "size" issues we ran in up to this point. 

More thoughts? Those of you who are computer gurus - what can we do overall? Is there something out there that will be "virtually" free and yet, accommodate our continued growth and size?


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Dec 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by NaphtaliPress_
> If the denomination and church that has oversight of PB does not think it is worth underwriting at least some of the cost, then I think it is a tough sell to charge for membership.



If the RPCGA does not have the funds to first accommodate a salary for a minister in a chruch plant, the PB is going to be a FAR second to that first responsibility. But nice thought!


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Dec 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> I think donations should support the board.
> 
> If it cannot be made viable, I would suggest that we archive the current board and start from scratch, which would allow for a much cheaper server (I think).



Ultimately, though, I think we would wind up back where we started. The size of the board will always come into play.


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## Contra_Mundum (Dec 19, 2005)

I'll be sending you something, Matt.


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## mgeoffriau (Dec 19, 2005)

I think donations are the best solution.

For those that cannot afford to give money, here's an idea that I've seen work exceptionally well on another forum (that is MUCH bigger, and is supported entirely on donations).

It's called a "Good Cause Auction." Let's say I have a book that I can do without - I've already read it, or I have two copies, or whatever. 

I open a thread here called "GCA - Reformed Book X by author Y". In the thread I specify an amount of time...say 72 hours. Other people then bid on the book by posting bid amounts. The first bidder starts it at say $10. The next person posts a bid of $15, and so on, until the 72 hours is over, and somebody wins.

Here's the fun part. Instead of paying me, the winner sends the payment to Rev. McMahon (or whoever would be collecting donations). When I receive word from Rev. McMahon that payment was received, then I send off the book to the winner.

This accomplishes two goals:
(1) Those who cannot afford to donate money have another way to contribute.
(2) Those who can donate but would choose not to ordinarily now have an incentive - they are getting something in return.

[Edited on 12-19-2005 by mgeoffriau]


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 19, 2005)

How much space does the PB currently take up on a hard drive? 

I understand archiving may not be a popular route, but if you were to archive, you could sell the old posts on CD/DVD to those members who want it, as another means of revenue. I assume archiving is done by thread and not by individual post date?

Also could publish a POD book and let all profits after cost coverage go to support the board.


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## crhoades (Dec 19, 2005)

Matt,

I have thoroughly enjoyed your Westminster Standards on MP3. CD duplication is very inexpensive. For every donor they receive the CD (they agree to pay s&h or you could build it in.) This way it is almost pure profit for you. They receive something that is very edifying (not to mention continued posting).


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## alwaysreforming (Dec 19, 2005)

I have a question:

Since size matters, does "quoting" other people's posts unnecessarily add to the storage size, and thus costs? If so, perhaps we could all do a better job keeping things slim and trim, and even moderators can "trim" peoples posts by removing quoted material when it does not add to the post. Sometimes we will quote the entire previous post only to add a ditto or thumbs up.... that seems like unnecessary space is taken up.

Also, I agree with the general concensus that only donations should be needed. We with the most posts should take the most responsibility, but it seems like if most people were to donate only $5, we'd gather most of the money needed.


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## Average Joey (Dec 19, 2005)

I think you(Matthew) should Benny Hinn the board up with promises of wealth to those who donate.



Just kidding of course.


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 19, 2005)

Prayer cloths for sale..........


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 19, 2005)

Locks of George Gillespie's hair (of which he seems to have had quite a bit)...


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## bond-servant (Dec 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> Prayer cloths for sale..........



ROFL 

[Edited on 12-19-2005 by bond-servant]


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## ChristopherPaul (Dec 19, 2005)

I suggest no required subscription fee.

The reason being the community will inevitably grow smaller in my opinion.

I joined a $22 lifetime membership at a board and even at that _one time _fee, the community was bland. Basically 5 people make up the majority of the posts.

I also joined the Shepherd Fellowship (Grace Church and John MacArthur) which is $18 per month ($212 per year!). That community is extremely baron. I agreed to a year commitment and regret it very much. J-Mac's assistant Nathan Busenitz (a contributing author in _Fools Gold_) posts, but few others. Just to give you an idea, my last post there was November 11 regarding the accusation against Rick warren that he is a self appointed Protestant Pope. I responded that some are saying the same thing about Chuck Smith (Calvary Chapel), CJ Mahaney (Sovereign Grace Ministries), and yes even John MacArthur. It has still yet to be responded to even though it was posted amongst many John MacArthur supporters (FTR, I was not trying to start a fight, I was attempting to extinguish a Warren bash with honest accusations of against "our own").

So all that to say, subscriptions, in my experience, lead to inactive message boards no matter how reasonable they are.

I suggest requesting donations and making the regular posters feel guilty for not helping out monetarily.


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## tcalbrecht (Dec 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> Prayer cloths for sale..........



Like this:


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## panta dokimazete (Dec 19, 2005)

Where do we send money? is it a paypal thing? Can you do a monthly withdrawal?


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## Arch2k (Dec 19, 2005)

I have been very blessed by the PB and think that it should remain as-is. I would like to contribute, and I think by having a couple of threads that were geared to "money-drives" we would be able to pull in most if not all of the money needed.

As soon as you guys make a decision, let me know so I can send my $$.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Dec 19, 2005)

OK - sounds like the board thinks it can raise it on its own. I'm fine with that. We'll also look at option for new severs for the new year.

For now, those who want to contribute can go here:

http://www.puritanboard.com/Support.htm


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## Dan.... (Dec 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> Prayer cloths for sale..........



You can always sell indulgences.

10 years out of purgatory for $20...


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## historyb (Dec 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Dan...._
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> ...



or selling non-Bannings for $20


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## Tirian (Dec 20, 2005)

I resell web hosting as I am sure others on this board do also and _may_ be able to assist with cheaper hosting. Out of interest, how much space does the PB currently occupy, and how much traffic is generated on a monthly basis?

Matt


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## Scott Bushey (Dec 20, 2005)

Matt,
we've already been there, done that.


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## satz (Dec 20, 2005)

Are paypal and credit card the only options to donate?

I am a little lazy to read though the stuff myself, so does anyone know off the top of their heads what are the ways to add credit to a paypal account?


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Dec 20, 2005)

You can send a check if you want:

Make it out to: C. Matthew McMahon / Puritanboard
4101 Coral Tree Circle #214
Coconut Creek FL, 33073

We have taken in $220.00 thus far. $380 to go.


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## Puritan Sailor (Dec 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by C. Matthew McMahon_
> Patrick - that is an exceedingly good point on the whole legal thing.
> 
> APM and the Puritanboard are completely separate entities. Monies for APM are used for APM, and materials sent out. PB monies are used just for the PB.



That clears up some things. I once purchased one of your CD's because I thought the money would go to the Puritan Board. I guess it went to A Puritan's Mind instead. But that's fine. Perhaps though you could make it optional as to where the buyer wishes the proceeds to go. For instance, if someone buys another CD, the buyer could select either APM or PB (or split it between both) as to where they wish the proceeds to go. That may be one easy way of generating some specific revenue for the Board without much work on your part. All you would have to do is somehow enable the buyer to specify where he wants the donation to go. 


[Edited on 12-21-2005 by puritansailor]


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## cupotea (Dec 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by historyb_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Dan...._
> ...



How about John Calvin Bobbleheads?


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## raderag (Dec 21, 2005)

Maybe have the option to sign up for a donation reminder. You could divide the cost of the board by the number of pledgers, and then have a little extra for those that don't follow through. I would sign up, but I would hate cost to be a barrier for new members.

In other words,, if you think the costs is going to be $1000, and there are 100 members that sign up, ask each pledger to pay like $15. You will have extra for next year, and will eventually have a more accurate # to ask for.

[Edited on 12-21-2005 by raderag]

[Edited on 12-21-2005 by raderag]


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Dec 21, 2005)

More donations came in - $345 to go!


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## Civbert (Dec 22, 2005)

Put together a mass e-mailing list of the members... and pass the hat! 

The members will support the board financially. You just need to let us know your needs. Put it up front: "the board has this much money, it needs this much more to keep going". 

 We won't let it close down!

And keep it open to lurkers. 

Get a pay-pal account or some other way for us to donate. Give us a mailing address and tell us who to make the checks to.


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## Civbert (Dec 22, 2005)

OK. I found the donation link in this thread. But you need to make it more obvious. I did not know the board needed money before I started surfing around and found this by accident. Is there a "Donate" button on the main page? I go to straight to the board via this page: http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/index.php

P.S. I see the "Support " link on the main page. Now you just need a way to alert us when you need support. I think a mass e-mail will do the trick. Put it as an option to get the e-mail on the membership pages. Then you can let us know the state of the budget and we can respond accordingly.

[Edited on 12-22-2005 by Civbert]


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Jan 8, 2006)

We have $235 to go. If we can collect that this month, that will set us for the whole year.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Jan 9, 2006)

$135 to go.


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## JohnV (Jan 13, 2006)

Has anyone suggested a band-width taxation? That is, that there is a minimum amount of use of the Board ( filling up band-width space through number and length of posts ) that is free; but a use above a considered average could be taxed, levied upon those members who use the Board a lot in a given amount of time. This has to be worked out on an average use per time period, not over all use. That is, those who have been members a long time will naturally have a greater number of posts, but may have a relatively short band-width use per week or month, while others may come on board and fill the threads with a great many posts, quotes, cited articles, etc. This tax level should reflect an overuse; maybe such as according to the average amount of space needed before sections get archived, divided by the number of members.

I just thought of this because I just posted a news article by pasting it onto the thread instead of giving the link. I did this because giving the link alone to a news website will make the original article for that thread unavailable in a day or so, and so those who look in later will not be able to access that news story through that link. I thought afterwards that, though it was necessary to post the entire article, yet it was more than what I would enter on the Puritan Board in one day, on average.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 13, 2006)

If there is a band-width taxation I will be forced to stop quoting the Puritans at length and starting posting icons only.


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## crhoades (Jan 13, 2006)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> If there is a band-width taxation I will be forced to stop quoting the Puritans at length and starting posting icons only.



There could always be a   tax. For every  you insert you must pay  

 are free...


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## Anton Bruckner (Jan 13, 2006)

> _Originally posted by crhoades_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> ...


you tax and spend democrat you


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## crhoades (Jan 13, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Slippery_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by crhoades_
> ...


That hurts man... What have I ever done to you? You could at least called me a tax and spend republican...at least that's a little better... (not really)


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## JohnV (Jan 13, 2006)

Hmmm. Didn't think of you, Andrew. I don't want to discourage your postings at all. 

I got it!!! Tax the Democrats. They'll pay for anything, as long as it looks good and sells votes. I mean, they don't even have to be members, but that doesn't mean we can't tax them, right? I mean, turn around is fair play, after all: they tax us for things that we don't support. ( Yes, we have them here in Canada too, but just with a different name. )


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## kevin.carroll (Jan 14, 2006)

Maybe we could have an online store and see Rapture Robes to our dispensational brethren.


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## Civbert (Jan 14, 2006)

Did someone mention t-shirts and mugs - those kinds of things. I'd go for that. I'm sure theres some dealer that only requires a few images or a logo and you'd be set. I'd pay $8 for a mug, or $20 for a decent t-shirt.


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## Scott Bushey (Jan 14, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Civbert_
> Did someone mention t-shirts and mugs - those kinds of things. I'd go for that. I'm sure theres some dealer that only requires a few images or a logo and you'd be set. I'd pay $8 for a mug, or $20 for a decent t-shirt.



Anthony,
Matts site hyyp://wwwapuritansmind.com has t-shirts for sale. I believe there are a few PuritanBoard shirts available. Whether the proceeds from the PB shirts goes for this endeavor would have to come from Matt himself as I have no idea.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Jan 15, 2006)

$101 to go. Almost there!!


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Jan 21, 2006)

We are $91 from the goal. 

One more person for $100 would do it. Or two for $50, or four for $25, or eight for $12.50, or sixteen for $6.25, or.... you get the idea!

Come on, let's get this over with!


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Jan 22, 2006)

$86 to go!


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## Puritanhead (Jan 22, 2006)

If I was employed and not broke than I might help out. I feel bad for lack of financial resources.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Jan 22, 2006)

Its Ok. Don't feel pressured.


$79 to go!


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Jan 23, 2006)

Goal Reached!

Thanks to everyone who gave. 

YOU are supporting these discussions and make it possible to keep the board open!

Blessings.


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