# The Unsaved Desiring God?



## sevenzedek (Jan 8, 2013)

I have rarely ever been very critical of John Piper's ministry, but he said something in his latest sermon entitled, Sorrowful Yet Always Rejoicing (December 30, 2012). He was saying what he thought Jesus meant in Matthew 5:13 in the context of Matthew 5:11-14. This the Bible passage in the ESV that Piper uses:

11 Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
13 You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people's feet.
14 You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden.

What Piper said can be heard on the recording at approximately minute 34:00 while the transcript on the Desiring God website does not contain his quote that can be seen below. It is common for the transcripts of his messages to be somewhat paraphrased at certain points. What Piper says in the audio version of his sermon is exactly this:

“I think what he means is... the taste... the taste of life that people are aching for is to see a person who is happy in the midst of pain who has got something so deep; so unshakable; so indomitable and invincible that, when all around their soul gives way, their joy doesn't give way. That would be so salty; so bright; so bright it would look like the glory of God on the earth. I think that is what he means. So the picture of Jesus is: Blessed are you when men persecute you and revile you. They did that to the prophets and they're gonna do it to any faithful Christian and... your reward is great in heaven... and so let that truth stream back into the moment and rejoice in hope and you will be the salt of the earth. You will be what the world needs; and even what the tastebuds of their soul are longing for and they don't know it.”

I don't really have a problem with most if what he says except for the very last sentence where he says, “You will be what the world needs; and even what the tastebuds of their soul are longing for and they don't know it.”

That which is salty in Matthew 5:13 is Christ in us. Christ shining forth in us is what makes us salty Christians and Piper seems to be saying that the tastebuds of the unsaved people of this world already desire the beauty of Christ in us and they don't even know it. 

My problem with this quote is that it appears as though Piper is saying that unsaved people already desire and enjoy Christ and they only need to realize it. If this were true, it would circumvent the need for a new heart since fallen man really does desire God and he needs only to realize it to be saved and enjoy God. I think I remember Piper speaking this way in past sermons. Can anyone tell me if they find my conclusion to be faithful to Piper's message and consistent with his other teachings? If my conclusion is consistent with his teachings, can this really be consistent with the word of God?

I am already inclined to believe that everyone enjoys something of the glory of God since the whole earth is full of his glory and the goodness that unsaved people enjoy is really the goodness of God. They just don't give him the glory due to his name. What they need is to be made alive with a new heart in order to enjoy his person and not just his gifts. Could this be what Piper is aiming at?


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## davenporter (Jan 8, 2013)

Jon,

I think you're right that it was said poorly and could be understood as you read it. But from my experience of Piper I also think it is inconsistent with the rest of his ministry and was probably a mistake on his part.

Obviously Christ is what their souls need, but saying that the "tastebuds of their souls" are longing for Him makes it sound as if they do desire Him, which they most certainly do not. Those who are in the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, and cannot please God. Yet the fact that they really do need Christ is undeniable, even if they're unwilling to admit it, and I think that's more what Piper meant to get at -- I think he just said it poorly. The fact that he says they don't even know that their 'souls are longing' for Christ suggests to me that any "longing" that Piper is talking about cannot in any way please God, but he still could have said it better.

Romans 1:20-21 is very clear: everyone knows God; and therefore everyone knows what (who) is best for their soul, but that doesn't mean that they want Him. They suppress the truth -- even of what their own soul needs. (If Piper had used the word "needs" it would have been better than "longs for" -- but I think charity demands that we understand his intention to be orthodox)

That's my take, anyway.


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## AThornquist (Jan 9, 2013)

I think Dr. Piper is exactly right, actually. Which unsaved people don't want peace in their hearts? Which don't want to be loved? Which don't want to last forever in prosperity? Which don't want joy? The unsaved long for and seek after these things that can only be found in Christ, but because of the idolatrous nature of their hearts they reject God's way--the only--to these blessings and so try to gain them by other means. There are true ways that the unregenerate know and _don't_ know God, and I believe it is true to say that if we are salt and light in this world they will want what we have, even if their wanting is purely subconscious. Their soul will long for the great inheritance we have inherited and the benefits therein, and yet they will remain unsatisfied until they repent and believe.


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## CharlieJ (Jan 9, 2013)

Piper's statement, or a similar one, could be the theme of Augustine's _Confessions_.


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## Zach (Jan 9, 2013)

AThornquist said:


> I think Dr. Piper is exactly right, actually. Which unsaved people don't want peace in their hearts? Which don't want to be loved? Which don't want to last forever in prosperity? Which don't want joy? The unsaved long for and seek after these things that can only be found in Christ, but because of the idolatrous nature of their hearts they reject God's way--the only--to these blessings and so try to gain them by other means. There are true ways that the unregenerate know and _don't_ know God, and I believe it is true to say that if we are salt and light in this world they will want what we have, even if their wanting is purely subconscious. Their soul will long for the great inheritance we have inherited and the benefits therein, and yet they will remain unsatisfied until they repent and believe.



I agree. Everyone who has ever lived was created to glorify and enjoy God and I think that the effects of that calling create the longings that Andrew describes even in the midst of their total depravity and hatred of God.


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## sevenzedek (Jan 9, 2013)

So, is it correct to say that the unsaved truly do desire God in many ways but would rather steal his glory for themselves and pervert it to their own ends? In this light, it is seems accurate that the unsaved really do desire Jesus; just not for end for which he exists (i.e. FOR the glory if God).


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## Tim (Jan 9, 2013)

AThornquist said:


> I think Dr. Piper is exactly right, actually. Which unsaved people don't want peace in their hearts? Which don't want to be loved? Which don't want to last forever in prosperity? Which don't want joy?



May we not say, however, that these are desires for the _blessings of God_, rather than _God Himself_?


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## Zach (Jan 9, 2013)

But, Tim, the blessings of God really are the gift of God himself in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ.


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## Tim (Jan 9, 2013)

Zach said:


> But, Tim, the blessings of God really are the gift of God himself in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ.



I know that, but the unsaved do not think that way, which is my point. If you ask an unsaved person, "would you like to spend eternity where there is no pain or sorrow" - of course they will say yes. But in their mind, they are separating the blessings that accompany God from God Himself.

Would you agree?


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## Zach (Jan 9, 2013)

I do agree. But, so long as the unsaved desire eternity where there is pain or sorrow they desire the Lord Jesus.


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## irresistible_grace (Jan 9, 2013)

Tim said:


> AThornquist said:
> 
> 
> > I think Dr. Piper is exactly right, actually. Which unsaved people don't want peace in their hearts? Which don't want to be loved? Which don't want to last forever in prosperity? Which don't want joy?
> ...


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## Tim (Jan 9, 2013)

Zach said:


> I do agree. But, so long as the unsaved desire eternity where there is pain or sorrow they desire the Lord Jesus.



Can you elaborate, please? Try to be as precise and technical as possible.


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## Rich Koster (Jan 9, 2013)

It seems that all idolators are looking for something to fill the void in their life. That is what drives the bigger (SOME DEVICES SMALLER), better, faster and prettier attitude which obsesses a materialist world.


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## Zach (Jan 9, 2013)

I am struggling to articulate what it is that I am trying to say, so I apologize. What I am trying to say is that the benefits that unbelievers desire can only be found in being united to Christ by faith. What their souls are longing for, though they are dead in their sins and an enemy, is ultimately the joy of acceptance with God through the Lord Jesus. Like Augustine said, all of our hearts are, "restless until they find their rest _in Him_."

As Rich pointed out, it is connected to our idolatry. As Dr. Piper asserts in _Desiring God_ the human heart tends to pursue joy and until regenerated will pursue it in all the WRONG areas. Nevertheless, that pursuit of joy is at its base the joy of being loved by God in Christ Jesus. Hope this is helpful in expressing from where I am coming.


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## irresistible_grace (Jan 9, 2013)

The wicked/unbelievers do not even desire the knowledge of God's ways much less the Lord Jesus Christ himself (our Prophet, Priest & King). We as Christians know that there are no lasting benefits apart from Christ. However, the unbeliever desires benefits apart from Christ. Many even create a false Christ in which to worship (Prosperity Gospel etc.). It seems as if Piper is equating "saltiness" to Christian joy. And, that this "joy" even in suffering is a foretaste of Christ. A taste that makes them long for what is providing the "saltiness" even though the unbeliever doesn't realize it is in fact Christ alone who provides that joy/saltiness. So, the unbeliever desires what the true Christian has but apart from the Holy Spirit lacks the understanding necessary to actually desire God himself & believe in Christ. Our world is full of worldly pleasures (materialism) but Christian joy is lacking and if we lose that joy we lose our saltiness.

NOTE: I don't believe that is necessarily what Christ meant but I believe this is what Piper communicated if in fact saltiness = Christian joy


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## sevenzedek (Jan 9, 2013)

So, it seems correct to say that the unsaved truly do desire God in many ways but would rather steal his glory for themselves and pervert it to their own ends. In this light, it is seems accurate that the unsaved really do desire the beauty of God (i.e. rest, peace, joy, satisfaction, etc.); just not for end for which he exists (i.e. FOR the glory if God).


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## A5pointer (Jan 9, 2013)

What would Paul say? Possibly Romans 3


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## sevenzedek (Jan 9, 2013)

A5pointer said:


> What would Paul say? Possibly Romans 3



Could you be more specific?


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## Matthias (Jan 9, 2013)




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## A5pointer (Jan 9, 2013)

sevenzedek said:


> A5pointer said:
> 
> 
> > What would Paul say? Possibly Romans 3
> ...



Something like this, it seems sans the work of the Holy Spirit there are NONE seeking God

9 What then? [g](O)Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both (P)Jews and (Q)Greeks are (R)all under sin; 10 as it is written,

“(S)There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”
13 “(T)Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
“(U)The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “(V)Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
15 “(W)Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17 And the path of peace they have not known.”
18 “(X)There is no fear of God before their eyes.”


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## deleteduser99 (Jan 9, 2013)

I wouldn't doubt at all that an unbeliever wants the benefits of being a Christian. After all, the privileges are fantastic. Sins forgiven, heaven for all eternity, and so much more; but whatever an unbeliever wants, it's a selfish pursuit. His desires are not birthed out of a love for God, but for himself. For a person to truly desire Christ, they must desire Him and want Him in all three offices: Prophet, Priest and King. The unsaved want the saving aspect of His priesthood, they want the sins covered so they don't have to go to hell, but they would never accept His role as Prophet (communicating the will of God), or His role as King (His right to rule). Or as we say today, they want Him as Savior, but not as Lord. But if that's the case, then they do not want Christ.

Whatever he feels, he would rather endure that starvation than give up his sin. There is light in a man's conscience for his need of God, but Romans 1 tells us they are always working to suppress it. It's like a man who becomes a member of a church because he wants money, but when the church wisely concludes that he's preying, he leaves. He wanted the blessings that the church could offer, perhaps very badly, but did not want the church.

I could see a lost man wanting to have some sense of divine acceptance. When I was lost I always felt lonely and like God was a complete stranger to me, and I wanted that void filled. But that was all I wanted, and would have been content to sit in a corner for all of eternity, play guitar and just feel good about myself. "Okay, I'm out of danger and I feel good. Now please leave me alone."

I would have to think too that if an unbeliever got all the benefits of Christianity without being converted, he would multiply his wickedness by them and wouldn't regard God in the least with them. After all, he has no love for God. I heard people say (more or less) that one reason God cut off the tree of life from Adam is because it could have hardened him in his wickedness to go on living forever. The unbeliever would receive the benefit and would twist it so he could worship and serve himself.

But Piper is right in the sense, as Spurgeon himself was told when converted, "Young man, you look very miserable. And you always will be miserable—miserable in life, and miserable in death,—if you don't obey my text; but if you obey now, this moment, you will be saved. Young man, look to Jesus Christ. Look! Look! Look! You have nothin' to do but to look and live."


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## sevenzedek (Jan 9, 2013)

A5pointer said:


> sevenzedek said:
> 
> 
> > A5pointer said:
> ...



Do you think what I said earlier could be true just as your quote above?



sevenzedek said:


> So, it seems correct to say that the unsaved truly do desire God in many ways but would rather steal his glory for themselves and pervert it to their own ends. In this light, it is seems accurate that the unsaved really do desire the beauty of God (i.e. rest, peace, joy, satisfaction, etc.); just not for end for which he exists (i.e. FOR the glory if God).


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## Zach (Jan 9, 2013)

sevenzedek said:


> So, it seems correct to say that the unsaved truly do desire God in many ways but would rather steal his glory for themselves and pervert it to their own ends. In this light, it is seems accurate that the unsaved really do desire the beauty of God (i.e. rest, peace, joy, satisfaction, etc.); just not for end for which he exists (i.e. FOR the glory if God).



This is what I was trying to say. Thanks, Jon, for saying it better.


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## irresistible_grace (Jan 10, 2013)

Brother Jon Dulin,

Some unsaved may desire God's blessings but would rather steal His glory for themselves and pervert it to their own ends. However, I would really appreciate if you would demonstrate from scripture (or at least from the Westminster Standards) why you believe it is correct to keep saying,


> the unsaved truly do desire God



Thank you in advance for clarifying. 
God bless,
Jess


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## Constantlyreforming (Jan 10, 2013)

Our church is currently doing a study on "vertical Church", which is James MacDonald's study on how the church is to react to our culture. Started last night. Interestingly, James had something very similar to say in regards to a verse in Ecclesiastes:
Ecclesiastes 3:11 (New International Version)
11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. *He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end. 

I was concerned and voiced it in our discussion because throughout the DVD, James kept insisting that God has placed a desire for transcendence, something outside of ourselves, outside of our realm, in every human heart. I don't believe that he was communicating what he was intending to communicate very well. I believe that he was trying to explain that mankind is always looking for something amazing...for something that is big and fulfilling. What I voiced concern over was that folks would consider that ANYTHING outside of themselves that is found as fulfilling would be sufficient. Kindof the Rob Bell approach to salvation...as long as mankind is all looking, God is not going to judge them. I know that is not what James was saying, but my concern is that his discussion on the subject could be easily misinterpreted to mean that.

James' doctrinal statement on his website states:

Salvation

We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, as the substitutionary atonement in our place, and that salvation is found in none other than Jesus Christ. Before Creation, God chose those who would be saved and granted this unearned grace solely based on His sovereign good pleasure. Jesus Christ’s death on the cross was the sole and complete payment for sins, fully satisfying God’s righteous wrath, for each person that turns from sin in repentance and places their faith in Christ alone by grace alone. At salvation each person is made a new creation by the Holy Spirit, declared righteous before God, and secured as an adopted child of God forever. Genuine faith continues in obedience and love for Jesus Christ with a life eager to glorify God and persevere to the end (Romans 8:37-39; 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Corinthians 12:13). 

Kindof a soft-Calvinist stance, but I think sufficient nonetheless. I do not believe that the unsaved are desiring God, based on Romans 3:10-11 "“None is righteous, no, not one;

11 no one understands;

no one seeks for God."*


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## sevenzedek (Jan 10, 2013)

irresistible_grace said:


> Brother Jon Dulin,
> 
> Some unsaved may desire God's blessings but would rather steal His glory for themselves and pervert it to their own ends. However, I would really appreciate if you would demonstrate from scripture (or at least from the Westminster Standards) why you believe it is correct to keep saying,
> 
> ...



Jess,

I realize that what I am saying comes very close to error, but I am not yet convinced that what I say is wrong. The line between truth and error is razor thin and careful distinctions must be made in order to describe the truth according to God's word. One thing that also must be born in mind is that I am, in this thread, still learning to test all things and hold to that which is true. You and everyone else on the board are helpful to that end. All this being said, allow me to now interact with your question.

I have tried to qualify my statement that the unsaved do desire God by saying that they do not desire him for the end for which he exists (i.e. FOR the glory of God). Psalms 19:1-3 says,

1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech,
and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language,
where their voice is not heard.

I take this to mean that there is not one place on earth that does not in some way show forth God's glory. Well, when I think about it, God's glory can be known in rest, peace, satisfaction, relationships with other people, coffee, the warmth of a home, sex, and everything else that God permits with lawful and unlawful use. This is what the unsaved are enjoying. They are unlawfully enjoying and desiring God's glory. They are unlawfully enjoying and desiring the beauty of the Lord. 

Romans 1:19-20 says that God has revealed himself to unregenerate man, 

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 

So, when I look at the scriptures, I see that unregenerate man knows, enjoys, and desires God. The problem with the unregenerate man, then, is that they do not Glorify God as God according to Romans 1:21,

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Unregenerate man enjoys and desires God for the wrong ends. They desire to spend his goodness on their own lusts (so James). Instead of giving glory to God, they exchange it for themselves and the created world. This is idolatry. Romans 1:23 bears witness,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

This is what I meant when I said,

"So, it seems correct to say that the unsaved truly do desire God in many ways but would rather steal his glory for themselves and pervert it to their own ends."

When man robs God of his glory, they wickedly assert that the corruptible things of the world are the fountainheads of the goodness they enjoy. They do not see, enjoy, or desire God as the true fountainhead. Their joy, desire, and satiating acts all tell lies about the true God. They have forsaken God and hewed out cisterns that can hold no water (Jeremiah 2:13).

Allow me be clear that I am not saying that unregenerate people are desiring God with a saving desire. They are desiring him with an evil desire to spend his glory selfishly on themselves for their own evil ends. This is why they are judged. As the saying goes, they are seeking God's hands rather than his face; his gifts rather than his person.

Just because a person is without Christ does not diminish the fact that the rest, peace, joy, and satisfaction they enjoy find their source in God. When a people seek satisfaction by committing adultery, they are telling a lie about God with their behavior. On the one hand, the adulterers give evidence of the truth of God in the fact that two people can come together and know each other intimately; something that finds a basis in the intimate relationship of the Trinity. On the other hand, the adulterers are telling a lie about God and spending his glory on themselves because they are doing it without a covenant. They are saying that God is not an honorable God of covenant and that he lacks reliability in relationships. Not only are they robbing each other of the truth of God in their interaction, they are robbing God of the glory due his name. They are perverting God's glory to their own evil ends. And so it is that while they truly do enjoy and desire God, they are thieves who exchange God's glory for many lies and idols to their own destruction. One day God will remove the satiating cup of water from their hands and finally give them the true cup of blessing they have sought after. They will be forced to fill their own cups and will be found wanting.

Allow me to also be clear that I am not saying that a person only needs to realize that they are already desiring God in order to be saved. They need new hearts to see that God is the fountainhead of all blessing. The unregenerate heart is bent on placing themselves and everything else in this world in the place of God and they cannot stop doing this unless God intervenes and opens their eyes to see him as the true fountainhead of all blessing.

I hope this helps. And if I am in error, may I be corrected by someone wiser than I.

Thanks,

Dulin


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## sevenzedek (Jan 10, 2013)

> Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
> 
> The natural man does not love God. He does not desire God. He only seeks after things which benefit him -and that- in a mercenary spirit. He does not desire Christ. Only _stuff_. He does not desire forgiveness of sins, for he does not even acknowledge the need for forgiveness. He simply wants to avoid inconvenience, negative consequences, and punishment. It is true, as Andrew said, that the natural man wants "peace in [his heart] . . . to be loved . . . to last forever in prosperity . . . [and] joy," but not the kind that the Lord gives. The natural man wants a purely self-centered, self-earned, and self-perpetuating kind. The natural man hates God. He does not desire anything of Him, unless the Lord graciously regenerates him from his natural estate of sinfulness, giving him a heart of flesh, making him willing in the day of God's power. Any _true _longing for Christ comes from a _regenerate_ heart, not the natural man.



Desire is a strong word for some. But the substance of my argument uses the word "desire" in an equivocal way. I interpret the fallen man's desire for God's gifts as a desire for that which only comes from God—his goodness and beauty. It is in this way that I mean to say that the unregenerate desire God. They just don't desire all of him. So, they will take his beauty, reject his authority and person and spend his glory on themselves.

Perhaps it would be less provocative to leave the words "enjoy" and "desire" out of the discussion. The substance of my understanding seems to agree with you.

I must admit that I have no theological training. I have no generally accepted categories and terms in which to place these scriptural observations. But the substance of my assertions, are they really that far off?


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## Zach (Jan 10, 2013)

This is thread is really making me think and I'm appreciative of you who are responding. It is also making me examine myself, which is good, and ask the ultimate question, "Do I desire God?" 

Are all people ultimately seeking joy that can only be found in Christ?


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## Tim (Jan 10, 2013)

Zach said:


> This is thread is really making me think and I'm appreciative of you who are responding. It is also making me examine myself, which is good, and ask the ultimate question, "Do I desire God?"
> 
> Are all people ultimately seeking joy that can only be found in Christ?



I have also been contemplating this with regard to my own heart. The answer is, "not enough".


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## sevenzedek (Jan 10, 2013)

Zach said:


> Are all people ultimately seeking joy that can only be found in Christ?



I don't believe all are. Yet, at the same time they are. I think unregenerate men would like to have many things Christ offers. They would like peace, relationship, pleasures, joy; all of which have their existence from the person of God because he is happy and he is relationship. They just don't want all of him. I think people may be hearing me say that unregenerate people desire ALL OF God when they see me saying that I think unregenerate people desire and enjoy God.

It seems rather urgent that I emphasis this at this point. I am getting the feeling that others on the board are seeing my comments as the enemy of orthodoxy when I still think I am in agreement with it.


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## sevenzedek (Jan 10, 2013)

In an effort to avoid more controversy, I concede to the idea that when I say unbelievers desire God I really mean to say that they desire his blessings. But allow me to once more to explain why I say they desire God.

When we consider the two adulterers coming together to know each other intimately, I say they are enjoying an aspect of God's nature in an unlawful manner. Relationship is something intrinsic to God. God IS relationship. The members of the Trinity have relationship. Although the adulterers are not enjoying all there is to enjoy in their perverted relationship and lack love in their heinous act, there is still an element of their behavior that finds it's origin in God himself. They enjoy a faint glimmer of his beauty. And I say this is why they deserve hell.

So, while I did assert that unbelievers do desire God, I DID NOT AND DO NOT SAY THAT UNBELIEVERS DESIRE GOD AS GOD.

I am sure many of you would have me say that unbelievers desire God's blessings rather than have me say they desire God.

Maybe this is a conversation better suited to one that concerns the glory of God. What is God's glory and how much of his person is in his glory? And if his person is reflected at all in anything that reflects his glory, do unregenerate people enjoy that?


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## Zach (Jan 10, 2013)

Tim said:


> Zach said:
> 
> 
> > This is thread is really making me think and I'm appreciative of you who are responding. It is also making me examine myself, which is good, and ask the ultimate question, "Do I desire God?"
> ...



I am right there with you, brother. 



sevenzedek said:


> Zach said:
> 
> 
> > Are all people ultimately seeking joy that can only be found in Christ?
> ...



This is where it is really hard. I think when the unbeliever is seeking blessing that can only be found in God what they are seeking, though they do not know it and still hate him, is in some sense God himself. Obviously, they do not want God as the Lord of their life and would take just his blessings if they could. Nevertheless, they still want what can only found if they have him as their God.


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## Randy in Tulsa (Jan 10, 2013)

According to the Westminster Confession, Chapter 6:

IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions. 

Rowland Ward's Modern English version (in pertinent part) gets at the question in the OP a bit more clearly: "The original corruption makes us completely disinclined, incapacitated and opposed to all spiritual good, and wholly inclined to all evil."


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## sevenzedek (Jan 11, 2013)

I apologize to everyone for muddying the theological waters with my untrained theological thoughts. I do realize that much confusion can be avoided by not saying that unbelievers desire God and to instead say that they just want his blessings.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Jan 11, 2013)

The only way Piper's saying could _seem_ to be acceptable is if he were talking of the elect yet uncalled, and even then I don't know if it is acceptable. For even the elect are dead in trespasses and sins, enemies of God, until they are regenerated; consider Saul of Tarsus. And yet in *John 18:37*, in His testimony to Pilate Jesus said, "To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice." Does this mean that the elect – those that are "of the truth" – do long for, _desire_, the Shepherd's voice? You'll note in the verses below Jesus said "he that doeth truth cometh to the light". I remember when I was saved, I hated the words of the Gospel that were being preached to me – "Jesus died on the cross for your sins" – but when the Spirit of Christ shone into my heart bearing witness that He did indeed, and was God, and loved me, I then loved Him and cleaved to Him, or perhaps it is better said, He cleaved to me. I was turned from an enemy to a beloved child in an instant.

But of the reprobate, it is written there is a hatred that the light doesn't melt and remove, but rather antagonizes and causes it to erupt into implacable, violent opposition.*
John 3:18* He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 
*19* And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 
*20* For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 
*21* But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.​
These things are nuanced, and if presented carefully, are clear.


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## Zach (Jan 11, 2013)

The Scripture presented by Steve and Joshua has convinced me that I was wrong on my earlier take on this discussion. While the unregenerate man does desire many things found only in God I think Scripture is clear that this is not a desire for God himself in Christ as I said it was earlier. Until regeneration, I do not see any Scripture that unregenerate men are capable of anything but hatred of God.


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## sevenzedek (Jan 11, 2013)

Zach said:


> The Scripture presented by Steve and Joshua has convinced me that I was wrong on my earlier take on this discussion. While the unregenerate man does desire many things found only in God I think Scripture is clear that this is not a desire for God himself in Christ as I said it was earlier. Until regeneration, I do not see any Scripture that unregenerate men are capable of anything but hatred of God.



From the beginning of this thread I have believed that unregenerate men are not capable of anything but hatred of God. This begs the question: what have I been saying all this time?

I am okay letting the discussion resolve on the preferred notes. However, maybe someone could tell me what is the orthodox way of speaking about how unregenerate people enjoy God's blessings. If they are not enjoying something of God in his blessings, then what are they enjoying in his blessings?

GOD'S ENJOYED BLESSINGS = evidences of the person of God enjoyed by the unregenerate; evidences held and in unrighteousness; evidences of that which may be known of God because God hath shewed it unto them; evidences exchanged for a lie; evidences enjoyed; and, of course, evidences hated because they hate God

What does the bible say about this?


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## JOwen (Jan 12, 2013)

AThornquist said:


> I think Dr. Piper is exactly right, actually. Which unsaved people don't want peace in their hearts? Which don't want to be loved? Which don't want to last forever in prosperity? Which don't want joy? The unsaved long for and seek after these things that can only be found in Christ, but because of the idolatrous nature of their hearts they reject God's way--the only--to these blessings and so try to gain them by other means. There are true ways that the unregenerate know and _don't_ know God, and I believe it is true to say that if we are salt and light in this world they will want what we have, even if their wanting is purely subconscious. Their soul will long for the great inheritance we have inherited and the benefits therein, and yet they will remain unsatisfied until they repent and believe.



What is being describes in the passages quoted are the marks of the regenerate and none other. These longings can only be experienced by the soul born from above. The natural mind does not want "peace" as the Lord gives it, "love" as the Lord gives it, "prosperity" as the Lord gives it, "joy" as the Lord gives it etc. Why? Because at heart, the "_carnal mind is enmity against God_", and "_The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned_". The unregenerate share_ absolutely nothing_ with the child of God when it comes to the beatitudes (Read Pink, Lloyd-Jones). The unregenerate's longings are real, yes, but carnal and selfish, born out of myopic need. There is absolutely no correlative or "subconscious" desiring of what strictly belongs to the believer by the sovereign work of the Spirit. "_For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit_." (Romans 8:5) In other words, if they desire these things, they are already born from above.

Kind regards,


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## Zach (Jan 12, 2013)

sevenzedek said:


> Zach said:
> 
> 
> > The Scripture presented by Steve and Joshua has convinced me that I was wrong on my earlier take on this discussion. While the unregenerate man does desire many things found only in God I think Scripture is clear that this is not a desire for God himself in Christ as I said it was earlier. Until regeneration, I do not see any Scripture that unregenerate men are capable of anything but hatred of God.
> ...



When I was asking myself the same question, Jon, I couldn't really couldn't reconcile what I was trying to argue with the reality of our complete deadness in our sins, which we both obviously affirm. I'm looking forward to the replies to your question about what exactly God's enjoyed blessings by the unregenerate are and I think you are off to a good start with your list.


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## py3ak (Jan 12, 2013)

Haggai 2:7.


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## iainduguid (Jan 12, 2013)

Haggai 2:7 is probably not where you want to go with this. The KJV, following the Vulgate, indeed translates "The desire of all nations shall come" but this is grammatically impossible since the verb ("come") is plural. Most modern versions (apart from the NIV, funnily enough) therefore translate as something like "The treasures of all nations shall come", which fits contextually with the claim the Lord has just made that the silver and gold that the nations own belongs to him and he will bring it back to his temple to fill the void that was there in Haggai's own day.

That doesn't directly address the main question of this thread. OT passages certainly look forward to a day when all nations will delight in the Lord and stream to his house, but that seems to me to have more to do with the category of "elect but presently unsaved" than a less nuanced "unsaved people who have a desire for God."


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## py3ak (Jan 12, 2013)

> He afterwards adds, The desire of all nations. This admits of two explanations. The first is, that nations shall come and bring with them everything that is precious, in order to consecrate it to the service of God; for the Hebrews call whatever is valuable a desire; so that under this term they include all riches, honors, pleasures, and everything of this kind. Hence some render the passage thus, I will shake all nations, and come shall the desire of all nations. As there is a change of number; others will have beth, or mem, to be understood, They shall come with what they desire; that is, the nations shall not come empty, but shall gather all their treasures to be a holy oblation to God. But we may understand what he says of Christ, Come shall the desire of all nations, and I will fill this house with glory. We indeed know that Christ was the expectation of the whole world, according to what is said by Isaiah. And it may be properly said, that when the desire of all nations shall come, that is, when Christ shall be manifested, in whom the wishes of all ought to center, the glory of the second Temple shall then be illustrious; but as it immediately follows, Mine is the silver, and mine is the gold, the more simple meaning is that which I first stated — that the nations would come, bringing with them all their riches, that they might offer themselves and all their possessions as a sacrifice to God.


 - Calvin, _in loco_


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## iainduguid (Jan 12, 2013)

Calvin is aware of the difficulty caused by the change in number of the verb (singular to plural) for the traditional translation (which for him was the Vulgate, of course, not the KJV), which is why he prefers the modern translation as "the more simple meaning". So I understand Calvin to be explaining why the Vulgate translated it as it did (taking this shaking to be a parallel reference to the other passages in the OT that anticipate the nations coming to Christ). I agree that that is almost certainly the thought in the translator's mind. However, I still don't see how it is actually possible for a direct reference to the coming of Christ to go with a plural verb. Functionally, what the Vulgate and the KJV have done here is conjecturally emend the Hebrew text. It seems more plausible to supply a beth or a mem and have the nations bringing their desirable things, as some in Calvin's day suggested and he concurred, and as the NASV translates. But it is simpler still to read the desirable things as the subject of the verb, and see this as a reference to the ultimate plundering of the nations by God, another common theme in the prophets. Of course, that does raise questions about the Scriptural basis of lines in some Christmas carols, but that's a whole other post.


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## py3ak (Jan 12, 2013)

Thank you for expanding on the proper rendition of the verse, Professor Duguid. My goal in citing Calvin was to point out that within our Christian tradition, including Calvin and the AV, there is a basis for a use of language along the lines of what Dr. Piper and our brother Jon have done. This is important to bear in mind for any thorough discussion of the question. It is not enough, in arguing a position, to make a positive case for a particular point of view, as has been done on this thread from Romans 8:7 and other passages. As Augustine, Aquinas, Davenant, and Turretin all exemplify in their various ways, objections and exceptions must also be addressed.


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## sevenzedek (Jan 12, 2013)

py3ak said:


> It is not enough, in arguing a position, to make a positive case for a particular point of view, as has been done on this thread from Romans 8:7 and other passages. …objections and exceptions must also be addressed.



I vigorously agree with much zeal and charitable fervor near unto impatience; not only with your statement, but with the admirable stances made for orthodoxy thus far. And that ain't no joke, brother.

Now, when do get to this?



sevenzedek said:


> …maybe someone could tell me what is the orthodox way of speaking about how unregenerate people enjoy God's blessings. If they are not enjoying something of God in his blessings, then what are they enjoying in his blessings?
> 
> GOD'S ENJOYED BLESSINGS = evidences of the person of God enjoyed by the unregenerate; evidences held in unrighteousness; evidences of that which may be known of God because God hath shewed it unto them; evidences exchanged for a lie; evidences enjoyed; and, of course, evidences hated because they hate God
> 
> What does the bible say about this?



Is it ever proper to say that unregenerate God haters enjoy any aspects of God? Would there be anything for them to enjoy if there were no God of glory and blessings in the very first place? They enjoy God, but hate him. Such are the desires of a hypocrite in need of a new heart that they may come all the way to Christ. Many will not call upon his name while he is near. They confess his glory in their enjoyment of a glass of water, but deny him the glory due his name and say, "Look what my hands have wrought for myself."


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## Loopie (Jan 13, 2013)

sevenzedek said:


> Is it ever proper to say that unregenerate God haters enjoy any aspects of God? Would there be anything for them to enjoy if there were no God of glory and blessings in the very first place? They enjoy God, but hate him. Such are the desires of a hypocrite in need of a new heart that they may come all the way to Christ. Many will not call upon his name while he is near. They confess his glory in their enjoyment of a glass of water, but deny him the glory due his name and say, "Look what my hands have wrought for myself."



Jon, if I may I would like to step in here and offer just a few thoughts. I honestly believe that it is improper to say that the unregenerate enjoy God as God. They enjoy the results of his actions, and they enjoy the work of his hands, but they do not enjoy HIM. I mean, it would seem that to enjoy someone implies some sort of close relationship to them. I can say that I enjoy my close friends because I enjoy fellowship with them. 

By making that careful distinction I think we can be more accurate. I think it would be wrong to equate the results or works of someone with the person themselves. God has granted blessings to both the wicked and the righteous. The sun shines on them both, and rain falls on them both. No doubt the Canaanites and Amorites enjoyed the life that God gave them. God demonstrated his common grace by waiting until their iniquity was complete before bringing his judgment upon them. In that scenario those unregenerate people were enjoying the results of God's actions, and the works of his hands. The fact that they were eating and drinking is enough to say that they enjoyed the works of his hands (which is all of creation). Yet they were not enjoying God himself. God is not to be equated with creation. God is the Creator, and the author and creator of all things, but we must be careful to distinguish between God himself and the things that come from God. 

In the end I would say that the unregenerate enjoy what God has provided, but they do not enjoy him. They reject him, and suppress the knowledge that those things come from him. 

As for your question about what if there were no God, I would say that if God did not exist, then all of creation would not exist. I cannot fully conceive of a world where all of creation, including humans, exist, but God does not. God is necessary for anything else to exist. If God did not exist, nothing else would. 

Anyways, I hope that I was able to add some clarity to the conversation. What are your thoughts?


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## py3ak (Jan 13, 2013)

sevenzedek said:


> Is it ever proper to say that unregenerate God haters enjoy any aspects of God? Would there be anything for them to enjoy if there were no God of glory and blessings in the very first place? They enjoy God, but hate him. Such are the desires of a hypocrite in need of a new heart that they may come all the way to Christ. Many will not call upon his name while he is near. They confess his glory in their enjoyment of a glass of water, but deny him the glory due his name and say, "Look what my hands have wrought for myself."



Evil presupposes good; the perversion of what has been created to evil ends presupposed its creation as good by a good creator whose goodness is communicated thereby. Obviously without God there is nothing to enjoy; without God there is nothing at all, including no one to enjoy anything anyway.

Unregenerate men may have a sort of delight in and love for the philosophical notion of God, and enjoy contemplation in that way (think of Mr. Propter in _After Many a Summer Dies the Swan_). I think it is similar to the sort of imaginatively sympathetic love people can have for Christ, taken as a character in a story - as one might love Robin Hood or Alfred the Great (James Durham sets this out pretty clearly in his sermons on Isaiah 53). Of course neither philosophical delight nor historical enthusiasm are the same as a spiritual and personal relationship of trust and love. In those partial senses one could speak of enjoyment or delight that was not solely of a blessing.


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## sevenzedek (Jan 13, 2013)

I do believe there is a _partial_ sense in which it can be said that unbelievers do enjoy God, even though they lack a vital relationship with him. The way I see this does not in any way preclude the need for a new heart that would then enable one to enjoy God as God. I believe unbelievers not only distort the truth of God; but misappropriate the very truth and declarative glory of God (which is why they cannot know it with their carnal minds). I wish I could do better to explain myself and maybe convince others. However, there is too much confusion in talking this way about unbelievers enjoying God's blessings and nobody seems to be benefited by such distinctions as I have made. It is for this reason that I think I should stop pushing against the tide of godly men who have spoke to this issue in this thread. I do understand that unbelievers do not desire and enjoy God. Thanks to everyone for thinking hard about this issue with me. It is the glory a man to search out matter.


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