# Disagreeing with Calvin



## RJ Spencer (Dec 3, 2019)

Had a discussion with a person that claimed to be a Calvinist on social media. I told him that when I come across a hard passage of scripture I like to see what smarter men than myself have to say about the text. This man suggested that I was wrong to get Calvin and the reformers take on the Bible, that I should always read and interpret scripture myself. I informed him that all theology, whether we like it or not, comes from men "there is nothing new under the sun". He told me that I could listen to Calvin, he'd listen to Jesus. (seemed to have been suggesting that Calvin and Jesus disagreed.) This was on a Biblical Calvinism page mind you... I ended up having to block him for his smugness.
I didn't realize the "I don't need theology, I just need Jesus" crowd had infiltrated Calvinism to that extent.
Could I have handled it better? What might I have done differently?

Reactions: Like 1


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## RJ Spencer (Dec 3, 2019)

sorry, don't know how it got in "Books review", could an admin move it to the proper place? Sorry, I'll pay better attention next time.


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## ZackF (Dec 3, 2019)

I’d ask him why he used the modifier “Calvinist” if he’s put off using Calvin as a resource?

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## Reformed Covenanter (Dec 3, 2019)

I do not think that you could have done anything differently; the person's attitude reveals that he is unwilling to listen to counsel and is consumed with his own rightness. There is no need for you to lose any sleep about the matter.

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## Steve Curtis (Dec 3, 2019)

From the title of the thread, I thought you were, in the language of my youth, cruisin' for a bruisin' - saying such inflammatory things on the PB. 

Seriously, though, I echo Daniel's counsel above.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## timfost (Dec 3, 2019)

And yes, agreeing with Daniel. 

I like to learn about Jesus from those who know more about Jesus than I do. That's where Calvin fits in nicely. Paul himself asked for books and parchments (2 Tim. 4:13), and he learned directly from Jesus! If studying non-biblical texts was useful for Paul, how much more useful for us?

(And yes, I basically just paraphrased Calvin's commentary on that verse.)

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## Amy Green (Dec 4, 2019)

Perhaps the two of you just spoke passed each other a bit: I think it is really great and helpful to read Calvin and the reformers to help explain scripture. But although I do think many of the commentaries on Scripture are faithful unpackings of Scripture interpreting Scripture, it is still important to still line their interpretations up with Scripture (many commentaries are very helpful, but we have to remember that they are still not the inspired word of God). 
And on a side note, I was often in the past called a 'Calvinist', long before I even knew what it was, just for teaching what Scripture said. - and in a way I would think that just goes to show how close the teachings of Calvin and the reformers are to Scripture.
But I can understand that it is quite annoying when people who claim to be Christian don't deal with one another in the love of Christ.


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## Tom Hart (Dec 4, 2019)

RJ Spencer said:


> This man suggested that I was wrong to get Calvin and the reformers take on the Bible, that I should always read and interpret scripture myself.


"Me and my Bible."


RJ Spencer said:


> He told me that I could listen to Calvin, he'd listen to Jesus.


This is very odd coming from an self-proclaimed Calvinist.


RJ Spencer said:


> This was on a Biblical Calvinism page mind you...


Facebook? Well, there you go.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Ed Walsh (Dec 4, 2019)

RJ Spencer said:


> This man suggested that I was wrong to get Calvin and the reformers take on the Bible, that I should always read and interpret scripture myself. I informed him that all theology, whether we like it or not, comes from men "there is nothing new under the sun". He told me that I could listen to Calvin, he'd listen to Jesus. (seemed to have been suggesting that Calvin and Jesus disagreed.) This was on a Biblical Calvinism page mind you... I ended up having to block him for his smugness.
> I didn't realize the "I don't need theology, I just need Jesus" crowd had infiltrated Calvinism to that extent.
> Could I have handled it better? What might I have done differently?



Maybe he's a new Christian or maybe not, but, to the extent, he holds this Jesus only view, the man is clearly a fool and will be of little use to the Kingdom of God.

Just this morning I was thinking about the story of Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch. I was thinking of how much we need the help of fellow human beings to understand the Scriptures better. As Paul taught, after Jesus ascended he sent gifts of men to the church for their edification, "he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: (Ephesians 4:11‭-‬12)

All mature Saints know that they need help to understand the Scriptures.

Acts 8:30‭-‬31 KJV
And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

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## deleteduser99 (Dec 4, 2019)

I'll bet the same man has an inflated opinion of himself and his own ideas, and marvels that others don't see him as being all-wise in his understanding of Scripture.

It's a noble idea... until people decide on the same grounds not to listen to you.



RJ Spencer said:


> Had a discussion with a person that claimed to be a Calvinist on social media. I told him that when I come across a hard passage of scripture I like to see what smarter men than myself have to say about the text. This man suggested that I was wrong to get Calvin and the reformers take on the Bible, that I should always read and interpret scripture myself. I informed him that all theology, whether we like it or not, comes from men "there is nothing new under the sun". He told me that I could listen to Calvin, he'd listen to Jesus. (seemed to have been suggesting that Calvin and Jesus disagreed.) This was on a Biblical Calvinism page mind you... I ended up having to block him for his smugness.
> I didn't realize the "I don't need theology, I just need Jesus" crowd had infiltrated Calvinism to that extent.
> Could I have handled it better? What might I have done differently?

Reactions: Like 1


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## deleteduser99 (Dec 4, 2019)

1 Corinthians 3:21–23: Therefore let no man glory in men. *For all things are yours*; Whether Paul, or *Apollos*, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; *all are yours*; And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.

Apollos wasn't inspired, yet he was a gift. Calvin et al have their place in the "all are yours."

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## Taylor (Dec 4, 2019)

I wonder from whom _he_ learned about Jesus, and if _his_ faith is invalidated on the ground that his own faith is thus derived.

I doubt he would conclude as much, making him a hypocrite.

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## gjensen (Dec 4, 2019)

I am skeptical of teachers that are skeptical of teachers. A teacher should be teachable. By his logic, he should avoid sermons. 

I frequently encounter this view. It is common among the strict independents, and even Calvinists that have have been influenced by them. 

I try to engage them, commending their caution. Then I try to share the positive aspects of listening in on this ongoing conversation. I like to remind them that we have been blessed with gifted Bible teachers, and that we should show humility while remaining good Bereans. 

A challenge is that we have to qualify what we say and acknowledge that there is a lot of material that should be rejected. 

People with this view require patience as we all do. Some of us are not as insightful and have harder heads.

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## TylerRay (Dec 4, 2019)

RJ Spencer said:


> Had a discussion with a person that claimed to be a Calvinist on social media. I told him that when I come across a hard passage of scripture I like to see what smarter men than myself have to say about the text. This man suggested that I was wrong to get Calvin and the reformers take on the Bible, that I should always read and interpret scripture myself. I informed him that all theology, whether we like it or not, comes from men "there is nothing new under the sun". He told me that I could listen to Calvin, he'd listen to Jesus. (seemed to have been suggesting that Calvin and Jesus disagreed.) This was on a Biblical Calvinism page mind you... I ended up having to block him for his smugness.
> I didn't realize the "I don't need theology, I just need Jesus" crowd had infiltrated Calvinism to that extent.
> Could I have handled it better? What might I have done differently?


You should ask him why God gave ministers to the church.

I've been meditating on the statement in the WCF that we "have communion in one another's gifts and graces." I'm so grateful that the Lord has blessed me with the benefits of his work in and through others, and not merely what he works in me directly.

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## Dachaser (Dec 4, 2019)

Amy Green said:


> Perhaps the two of you just spoke passed each other a bit: I think it is really great and helpful to read Calvin and the reformers to help explain scripture. But although I do think many of the commentaries on Scripture are faithful unpackings of Scripture interpreting Scripture, it is still important to still line their interpretations up with Scripture (many commentaries are very helpful, but we have to remember that they are still not the inspired word of God).
> And on a side note, I was often in the past called a 'Calvinist', long before I even knew what it was, just for teaching what Scripture said. - and in a way I would think that just goes to show how close the teachings of Calvin and the reformers are to Scripture.
> But I can understand that it is quite annoying when people who claim to be Christian don't deal with one another in the love of Christ.


We should be willing to use the books given to us by men gifted to teach and instruct us, but also have interacted myself with those who always quote Calvin, Lewis, Spurgeon et all as what seemed to be their other Main source and not the Bible.

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## User20004000 (Dec 5, 2019)

RJ Spencer said:


> Had a discussion with a person that claimed to be a Calvinist on social media. I told him that when I come across a hard passage of scripture I like to see what smarter men than myself have to say about the text. This man suggested that I was wrong to get Calvin and the reformers take on the Bible, that I should always read and interpret scripture myself. I informed him that all theology, whether we like it or not, comes from men "there is nothing new under the sun". He told me that I could listen to Calvin, he'd listen to Jesus. (seemed to have been suggesting that Calvin and Jesus disagreed.) This was on a Biblical Calvinism page mind you... I ended up having to block him for his smugness.
> I didn't realize the "I don't need theology, I just need Jesus" crowd had infiltrated Calvinism to that extent.
> Could I have handled it better? What might I have done differently?



Maybe ask you friend why God gifted the church with teachers. I’d also be curious if he thinks he came up with the doctrine of the Trinity all by himself.

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## jwright82 (Dec 6, 2019)

RJ Spencer said:


> Had a discussion with a person that claimed to be a Calvinist on social media. I told him that when I come across a hard passage of scripture I like to see what smarter men than myself have to say about the text. This man suggested that I was wrong to get Calvin and the reformers take on the Bible, that I should always read and interpret scripture myself. I informed him that all theology, whether we like it or not, comes from men "there is nothing new under the sun". He told me that I could listen to Calvin, he'd listen to Jesus. (seemed to have been suggesting that Calvin and Jesus disagreed.) This was on a Biblical Calvinism page mind you... I ended up having to block him for his smugness.
> I didn't realize the "I don't need theology, I just need Jesus" crowd had infiltrated Calvinism to that extent.
> Could I have handled it better? What might I have done differently?


Ive had problems with people like this. In my experiences they are only Calvinist in so far as they believe in predestination. That's it. They usually stop talking to me and I let them say "you don't need all that theology stuff you just need the bible, and I'll tell you what it means." I respond with "ok I shouldn't listen to those theologians but only the bible"? 
"So I shouldn't listen to them because they're only men?" "Yes, that's right" they say. Than I ask "but I should listen to you?" Yes they say, I will then ask "But aren't you just a man too?" "Doesn't that automatically make you wrong?"

Then they will "see" the problem, sort of, and than respond with "well I just quote and use the bible to get my theology." "And they're not? How do you even know that?" Than they don't like talking to me anymore. That is a streamlined version of things but I've had to deal with it so many times that I was able to distill down how it generally goes.

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## Tom Hart (Dec 6, 2019)

I once encountered a man, a faithful churchgoer and an amiable fellow, who didn't like my suggestion to read theology books. The Bible is all we need, he said. I replied, "Do you listen to your pastor's sermon on Sundays?" He admitted I had a point.

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