# Frame's Apologetics



## Bryan (Jun 2, 2005)

I know Frame isn't the most popular guy on here but I haven't seen any discussion on his take on presuppositionalism (if I missed it point me to it). I'm currently 100 or so pages into his book Apologetics To The Glory of God and would like to know what others think of his "semi-Van til" approach.

So far I find it interesting.

Bryan
SDG


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## RamistThomist (Jun 2, 2005)

Frame can be real good when he wants to be. I think Michael Butler's essay shows that Frame is stretching it on the cosmological argument's connection with TAG. Nevertheless, it is a great book that repays several readings. I recommend it highly (and critically). He does in one footnote refuting the arminian understanding of foreknowledge.


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## Authorised (Jun 2, 2005)

The associate pastor at my church has a habit of skipping bad chapters in a book (usually the first 4-5) and reading the rest, only to come back to the others later. He loaned the book to me and told me to read the last chapter. 


For me, the book is a systematic for things I already have gathered from listening to debates and using in actual conversations.

[Edited on 6-2-2005 by Authorised]


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## RamistThomist (Jun 2, 2005)

Frame does a decent job laying out the CVT TAG; he just says it isn't a silver bullet for apologetics. Frame's three of four pages on biblical criticism is worth the price of the book.


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## crhoades (Jun 2, 2005)

http://www.cmfnow.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=62

For a series of lectures by Bahnsen to Frame's class with an actual dialog between the 2 men about the book in question - buy the above tapes. I think it is pretty critical to understand the differences both real and semantical between the 2 men. I just re-listened to them the other day and also gave them to my pastor for him to listen as well. Hate to say it buy I gotta go with Van Til and Bahnsen on this one. 

In having a chance to sit and talk with John Frame in his office once, I asked him what are some areas in apologetics that still need some fleshing out. He referred to the differences between himself and Bahnsen on these issues as one he would like to see other people do some study on. Food for thought.


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## RamistThomist (Jun 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by crhoades_
> http://www.cmfnow.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=62
> 
> For a series of lectures by Bahnsen to Frame's class with an actual dialog between the 2 men about the book in question - buy the above tapes. I think it is pretty critical to understand the differences both real and semantical between the 2 men. I just re-listened to them the other day and also gave them to my pastor for him to listen as well. Hate to say it buy I gotta go with Van Til and Bahnsen on this one.
> ...



How is the quality on those tapes?


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## crhoades (Jun 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
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> 
> > _Originally posted by crhoades_
> ...



not the greatest...but listenable. They do provide a typed transcript which is very helpful. It's good just to read it for the concepts. But listening to it is a treat. It is one of the most respectful, irenic disagreements that I've ever heard. If more Christians dealt with each other in this way, the church would be a better place.


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## RamistThomist (Jun 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by crhoades_
> 
> 
> not the greatest...but listenable. They do provide a typed transcript which is very helpful. It's good just to read it for the concepts. But listening to it is a treat. It is one of the most respectful, irenic disagreements that I've ever heard. If more Christians dealt with each other in this way, the church would be a better place.



That's true. Frame did speak at Bahnsen's funeral. I eventually want to get the tapes for that! I'd probably cry, though.

[Edited on 6--2-05 by Draught Horse]


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## crhoades (Jun 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by crhoades_
> ...



Stop what you're doing and get them! They are superb. Tear jerking...but superb. You can rent them from Mt. Olive Tape Library, I think. Also get his Sermons for the Heart as well as his tapes on Shepherding the flock. Only get them if you want to hear Bahnsen tenderly weep over his congregation while preaching. You'll appreciate him all the more once you see him in this light. The memorial service?...Again...get em!


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## Bryan (Jun 14, 2005)

Finished the book today, I thought it was really well done. The pages on biblical critism were good but I think Frame's biggest strength was with his presentation of the moral argument. It seemed like he truely understood what he was talking about and becasue of that was willing to use it as his main thrust again and again. It's always nice when you see someone knowing their strengths and sticking to them.

Bryan
SDG


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