# Does God or Satan torture in hell?



## dog8food (Nov 26, 2015)

Is hell the total absence of God? Who does the torturing in hell?


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## arapahoepark (Nov 26, 2015)

Hell is God's wrath, not the absence of God. That is some sort of ooey gooey, squishy, lovey dovey, evangelicalism and its recent doctrine.


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## dog8food (Nov 26, 2015)

arap said:


> Hell is God's wrath, not the absence of God. That is some sort of ooey gooey, squishy, lovey dovey, evangelicalism and its recent doctrine.



So how then is anyone cast out of God's presence if he is present in hell?


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## C. M. Sheffield (Nov 26, 2015)

The Bible speaks nothing of "torture" in hell. It rather uses the word "torment." Those consigned to hell are tormented with fire and brimstone (Rev. 14:10).


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## Warren (Nov 26, 2015)

The Devil won't have any power in the lake of fire. Revelation 20 promises the former things will be thrown into the fire and tormented, and they'll pass away, satan among them. The accuser's power is to accuse and deceive, which won't serve him in hell.

People will choose sin over life, but at the end they'll have to bow to Christ Jesus anyway, and in their unconverted hearts they'll confess to Jesus they deserve hell... This pierces pretty deep.


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## dog8food (Nov 26, 2015)

But back to my question:

Is God's presence in hell? Or is his torment separate from his being?

When Jesus was forsaken by God, does that mean he was absent from God at any moment?


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## Warren (Nov 26, 2015)

God's present, because He's present everywhere, but that's different from dwelling, fellowship, or abiding with souls in hell. God dwells with men in the New Jerusalem. Those in hell are tormented by the wrath of God, Where their worm does not die and their fire is not quenched (Mark 9), but His Spirit doesn't strive with them.


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## Peairtach (Nov 26, 2015)

When we use the expression "the presence of God" we are talking about His presence to bless.

God is present everywhere, but when we talk about being forsaken by God, we are talking about the absence of His presence to bless.

God is present in Hell, but not present to bless, so those in Hell are cut off from His comfortable presence.

E.g.


> And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb (Revelation 6:16)





> If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. (Ps 139:8)



*
Juan*


> When Jesus was forsaken by God, does that mean he was absent from God at any moment?



The Spirit upheld Christ as he continued to do the Father's will, but in the midst of that He experienced Godforsakenness on behalf of His people.



> torturing in hell?



The word "torture" may suggest the unjust infliction of pain, or the infliction of pain in order to obtain some unworthy goal or - in extremis - worthy goal. It is not an appropriate word for the experience of God's wrath in Hell.


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## Ed Walsh (Nov 26, 2015)

dog8food said:


> But back to my question:
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> Is God's presence in hell?



One of my favorite questions from Fisher's Catechism is the following (Q. 40):
Note: Question 39 is for context.

Q. 39. How is he [God] present in heaven?
A. By the most bright and immediate displays of his glory; all the
inhabitants of the upper sanctuary seeing him as he is, and enjoying
him without interruption for ever, 1 John 3:2; Psalm 16:11.

Q. 40. How is he present in hell?
A. In a way of tremendous power and justice, upholding the
damned in their being, that they may lie under the strokes of his
vindictive wrath for evermore, Psalm 90:11; Matt. 25:46.


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## PaulMc (Nov 27, 2015)

dog8food said:


> But back to my question:
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> Is God's presence in hell? Or is his torment separate from his being?



God is omnipresent, so there is nowhere where he is not, understood in that general sense.

Rev 14:10 "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb"


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## earl40 (Nov 27, 2015)

dog8food said:


> When Jesus was forsaken by God, does that mean he was absent from God at any moment?



This question is where the light of the Reformed shines upon all in Catholic orthodoxy. Jesus was forsaken in His humanity and not in His divine essence. This _distinction_ is essential though we dare not separate the humanity from His divinity.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 27, 2015)

When we are talking about hell, do we mean before or after the Great Judgment?

In any case, hell isn't a torture chamber. God is "present" but not to bless (as others have said).


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## earl40 (Nov 27, 2015)

ReformedReidian said:


> When we are talking about hell, do we mean before or after the Great Judgment?
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> In any case, hell isn't a torture chamber. God is "present" but not to bless (as others have said).



I would think the place is the same though that place will be populated with the resurrected bodies of the souls who are there now.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 27, 2015)

earl40 said:


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Speaking of "place," is hell currently located within our space-time cosmos?


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## TylerRay (Nov 27, 2015)

ReformedReidian said:


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If souls have localities, then it would have to be a place, no?


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## earl40 (Nov 27, 2015)

ReformedReidian said:


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Only God is outside of time and space.


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## TylerRay (Nov 27, 2015)

The souls in the current intermediate (pre-final judgment) hell are tormented by God. Fire is a picture of this torment (souls can't be burned because they are immaterial).

After the judgment, the damned will be tormented in body and soul by God for all of eternity. I don't think the Scripture requires that fire be involved in that bodily torment, but I wouldn't rule it out.


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## Peairtach (Nov 28, 2015)

earl40 said:


> dog8food said:
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He experienced in His human nature what it was to be forsaken by God i.e. experience God's wrath and the absence of His comfortable presence, but even in the midst of this awful experience on behalf of all His sinful people, His human nature, because He was without sin and God delighted in Him, was mysteriously upheld for the task - just as with all that Christ did - by the Holy Spirit.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2


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## RamistThomist (Nov 28, 2015)

earl40 said:


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So "hell" is in our universe?


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## earl40 (Nov 28, 2015)

ReformedReidian said:


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Where else could it be? It is only logical that anything that was made exists within the universe God made.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 28, 2015)

earl40 said:


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So, it is logically possible that if I dig deep enough I will find hell? 

I am not being snarky. I am just fleshing out a position.


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## Peairtach (Nov 28, 2015)

Are Heaven and Hell in our universe, or in a different dimension - whatever that would mean?

E.g.Propositional language is used of Heaven


> After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. (Revelation 4:1)



Whether or not, Heaven is clearly a good place to be and Hell a bad place to be.

Maybe a new thread should be started on where Heaven and Hell are, as it goes beyond the OP.


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## earl40 (Nov 28, 2015)

ReformedReidian said:


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I think hell would be any place God put it...maybe behind the moon? Also even if you found the place I do not think you would see the souls there because they are In my most humble opinion invisible to the eye.


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## arapahoepark (Nov 28, 2015)

earl40 said:


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So was that the mission of Apollo 13? Did they succeed?


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## RamistThomist (Nov 28, 2015)

My point was that if you say hell is in our space-time universe, then you are committed to saying it is "logically" possible (albeit physically implausible) that we could discover it.


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## earl40 (Nov 28, 2015)

ReformedReidian said:


> My point was that if you say hell is in our space-time universe, then you are committed to saying it is "logically" possible (albeit physically implausible) that we could discover it.



I just edited my post above that addresses this...."Also even if you found the place I do not think you would see the souls there because they are In my most humble opinion invisible to the eye."


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## Contra_Mundum (Nov 28, 2015)

2Ths.1:9, "...punished with everlasting destruction [away] from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."

Scripture's various descriptions of the _estate_ of the damned are not intended to supply men with a "brochure version" of the "place of [their] torment," Lk.16:28. By many fear-and-disgust inducing depictions, the godly (and those who would be) are warned from the brink and the broad way of destruction.

Does Is.66:24 teach that hell is close enough to heaven men may see it from a certain "balcony" off the side of heaven's Temple?

Descriptions of the afterlife--both heaven and hell--are accommodated to our present frame of understanding. The same was true regarding Israel's hope in the coming Messianic age: it was couched in terms of the old order, but with hints that the old wineskins would burst if forced to contain the new reality.

My sense of 2Ths.1:9 is that of an almighty, everlasting SHOVE. "Get away from Me!" Think of a place that is as far away from God as possible; and then think of that place receding still further, forever receding into the distance. At the same time, the wrath of God (his presence) is pushing that "place" and the people there away, away, away, away, dead, deader, deadest, still more dead, gone, and ever goner....

This is not the only way to think of hell. I favor Jonathan Edwards' description of hell as a place of "perfect malice and contention." There will be no parties, no fun, no friendships in the cold alienation, misery, and dissolution there.


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## earl40 (Nov 28, 2015)

Contra_Mundum said:


> Scripture's various descriptions of the _estate_ of the damned are not intended to supply men with a "brochure version" of the "place of [their] torment,"



Scripture teaches the reprobate get a body in the Resurrection, and though we have no map or brochure other than the logical and necessary inference of such we can deduce it is a place.


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## Contra_Mundum (Nov 28, 2015)

earl40 said:


> Scripture teaches the reprobate get a body in the Resurrection, and though we have no map or brochure other than the logical and necessary inference of such we can deduce it is a place.


True.

But what sort of "place" is it? Let's consider my picturesque description of 2Ths.1:9. Imagine an inflated beach ball; let's make it represent "reality." At the center is heaven, and God in his blessed presence. _Get away from Me!_ saith the Lord, and the wicked go hence, to the periphery--an ever expanding, ever departing limit.

So, the "place" for the wicked is the skin of that beach-ball analogy. And it's a lake of fire. And it's a rotting pile of garbage. And it's close enough that spoken conversation can be had by souls far separated by an unbridgeable chasm. And it's a perfectly silent chamber.


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## earl40 (Nov 28, 2015)

Contra_Mundum said:


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Of course I agree Rev. Buchanan and only wished to convey that hell is a physical place somewhere just as much as heaven is somewhere where Our Lord Jesus resides in a physical body today.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 28, 2015)

earl40 said:


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Just to the eye or with regard to all sense? Interesting point of fact: numerous Christian testimonies that deal with the demonic bring up the "smell" of it.


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## earl40 (Nov 28, 2015)

ReformedReidian said:


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Like I do not believe you can see those in hell I seriously doubt one can smell them because they do not have a physical body which contains all the physical properties we can experience. Also all those testimonies we all hear about trips to heaven or hell ought to be discarded off hand and we have no warrant to believe them in my opinion.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 28, 2015)

earl40 said:


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You can't see them since the soul, being immaterial, probably isn't normally see-able.

As to the stories, I never said they went to hell. I should have been clear. Demons appeared to them.


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