# PRAYING WITH UNBELIEVERS (or in the midst of them)



## sevenzedek

There was an issue raised in another thread concerning praying with unbelievers. I am starting this thread in order to encourage a discussion with others on the topic. There has already been a discussion on the board about this topic but it has been locked preventing any further interaction.

My understanding is that it is good and right to pray with those who are still outside of Christ; however, I believe that God's boundaries should be drawn around the practice and I am having trouble drawing those boundaries. My biblical warrant is that Jesus prayed during the Passover supper while Judas was present at the table. I would like to know how others on the board handle this issue of praying with unbelievers. One situation where this issue might come up would be family dinner gatherings where unbelievers are present. Another possible situation would be times when a Christian spouse has an opportunity to pray with an unbelieving spouse.

How do you handle praying while unbelievers are present. What do you think the Scriptures have to say about how we are to pray with unbelievers? When is it a sin to pray with an unbeliever? Do you think that your praying with an unbeliever could be misleading to them--that all is well with their soul while it seems to you that all is not well? These are just a few of my unresolved questions.


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## Kevin

I do it all of the time. Probably several times a week. I make a practice of asking non-xns "How can I pray for you? What is going on in your life, or the life of those that you care about that you would like to pray for?"

They tell me then I pray for them right there, out loud with my eyes closed. I do it pubs, restaurants, stores, offices, anywhere. It is a great evangelistic tool, in my opinion.

I have never had someone say "no thanks". But people do now sometimes ask me first if I will pray for them.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian




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## rbcbob

Should we make any sort of distinction between praying *with* an unbeliever on the one hand, and praying *for* or *in the presence of* an unbeliever on the other hand?


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## jogri17

What about Roman Catholics? Is you are invited to go to a catholic discussion and they start with prayer (I'm a theology student at a Romanist faculty), should I Make the sign of the cross and pray with them if they are praying to God and not Mary or a Saint? I would have no problem making the sign of the cross in the context of a worship service with Anglicans or Lutherans, but romanists is another story. I don't think this is off topic, but is a natural follow up?


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## rbcbob

jogri17 said:


> What about Roman Catholics?



How can we make distinctions among unbelievers? Unbelievers, collectively and by definition, do not believe in God and He does not hear their prayers (Jn 9:31; Ps 34:15; Prov 15:29, etc.)
Could we join in prayer with:
Catholics
Jews
Muslims
Wiccans
Satanists
Agnostics
Atheists


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## toddpedlar

sevenzedek said:


> There was an issue raised in another thread concerning praying with unbelievers. I am starting this thread in order to encourage a discussion with others on the topic. There has already been a discussion on the board about this topic but it has been locked preventing any further interaction.
> 
> My understanding is that it is good and right to pray with those who are still outside of Christ; however, I believe that God's boundaries should be drawn around the practice and I am having trouble drawing those boundaries. My biblical warrant is that Jesus prayed during the Passover supper while Judas was present at the table. I would like to know how others on the board handle this issue of praying with unbelievers. One situation where this issue might come up would be family dinner gatherings where unbelievers are present. Another possible situation would be times when a Christian spouse has an opportunity to pray with an unbelieving spouse.
> 
> How do you handle praying while unbelievers are present. What do you think the Scriptures have to say about how we are to pray with unbelievers? When is it a sin to pray with an unbeliever? Do you think that your praying with an unbeliever could be misleading to them--that all is well with their soul while it seems to you that all is not well? These are just a few of my unresolved questions.



As far as I can tell, Jon, the other thread has not been locked. It's still there and open for posting. That said, this is a different topic than the original topic of the other thread, so it's good to split it off. 

Now briefly to resonate with what you've already pointed out and to go a bit further, as you point out Christ did pray in the presence of Judas, who showed his unbelief after years of walking with Christ. Judas was not alone, either - his was only the most egregious case. As Scripture tells us many of those who followed Him as disciples turned away and showed their lost condition - many with whom He had previously prayed. A further example is the feeding of the 5000 (or the 4000) they were fed, and Christ broke the bread with prayer. In short it seems the Biblical narrative gives us many cases of Christ praying in the presence of unbelievers. 

1) unbelievers are nearly always quite confused about the state of their souls... not that we should aid and abet them, but they, not having their eyes opened by the Spirit of God, necessarily are confused.

2) If praying in the presence of unbelievers is to be forbidden, then praying while evangelizing must not take place. This is surely not the right path to take.

3) Last, and most jarring perhaps, if praying in the presence of unbelievers is to be forbidden, then churches should not hold worship services in which prayer takes place. There are both known and unknown unbelievers in congregations who are prayed with, preached to, and who participate in the sacraments. 

In the family situations you speak of, I'm not sure confusion about the state of their souls is something that should prevent you from praying on such occasions. First, because prayer is right and properly done then - so just do it. Second, because their confusion is not linked to your act of prayer, but it's already in their hearts. As far as I'm concerned, the case is closed at this point... but there's a kicker: (this is an impersonal but honest challenge to all of us, not only you, Jon) what are you doing for these family members about that confusion? Are you speaking with them about their need for Christ? Insofar as it depends on you, is there no confusion about what is needed for salvation? These are the kinds of questions that I think are far weightier.


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## KMK

How does one know who are believers and who are unbelievers?


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## Chellemonkey

I think this can get out of hand very quickly. Do we need to judge the hearts of every person we pray with? What if you pray in a Bible study at church and one is a nonbeliever, would you be sinning? I don't think you would. Could someone be in the Roman church and still be a true believer even if they are misled in their worship? Don't you think the Lord could change sometimes heart using a prayer? Aren't we told to pray without ceasing?


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## sevenzedek

Joseph, I believe your contribution is on point. My question is not about family members only, but all unbelievers.

Bob, I also believe distinctions need to be made.

While our prayers should not and CANNOT be united to the prayers of pagan worshipers and other unbelievers because they do not call upon God in faith, I do see that it is good to pray for the lost. Distinctions make sense; however, I am sympathetic to the idea of praying with the lost as well. It seems my brother was recently converted and I wonder how he would have responded to me making distinctions every time we came together to eat a meal. 

I would never allow an unbeliever to lead me in prayer for that would communicate my agreement with their faulty understanding of God. On the other hand, it seems the onus is on the unbeliever to have faith toward God if I am the one leading the prayer just like the onus was on Judas when Jesus prayed, doubtless, countless times with all his disciples.


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## Chellemonkey

Evidently I took too long writing my reply and others made the same points before me. I did want to add that we agree (at least in the PCA) when we baptize our children that we will pray with and for them. are we saying by that that every child baptized is a believer at that very moment? Some of our prayer is meant for instruction as well.


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## sevenzedek

Todd,

There was another thread entitled, PRAYING WITH UNBELIEVERS.


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## Chellemonkey

sevenzedek said:


> I would never allow an unbeliever to lead me in prayer for that would communicate my agreement with their faulty understanding of God. On the other hand, it seems the onus is on the unbeliever to have faith toward God if I am the one leading the prayer just like the onus was on Judas when Jesus prayed, doubtless, countless times with all his disciples.


Again I think it is not our place to judge the heart of every man. If I was at an event where the leader was someone I believed was not a true believer and they prayed for the group I would probably bow my head and pray silently that the person not cause harm our confusion to those of the body and for the salvation of the one praying falsely. If it was one on one with someone who was openly not a believer or in a more intimate group I would probably object and try to kindly explain why.


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## toddpedlar

sevenzedek said:


> Todd,
> 
> There was another thread entitled, PRAYING WITH UNBELIEVERS.



ok. Your opening post in this thread made it sound like the 'other' thread you referred to was recent and recently locked.


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## christiana

Was it wrong when I was taught long ago that the only prayer of an unbeliever that God hears is 'God, have mercy on my soul?'


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## sevenzedek

Todd,

I appreciate the consummation of your argument because it ends with love. Do those with whom we pray know their need for Christ? Do they know what is required for salvation? I agree that these questions are far weightier to my question here. But my question contributes to the discussion. The whole reason for asking my question is for the purposes of knowing what is sinful and identifying what might stand in a person's way of salvation. At times, while praying with my brother, and even some of my in-laws, I felt as though I were giving tacit approval to their lifestyle of unbelief.

---------- Post added at 03:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:17 PM ----------




toddpedlar said:


> sevenzedek said:
> 
> 
> 
> Todd,
> 
> There was another thread entitled, PRAYING WITH UNBELIEVERS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ok. Your opening post in this thread made it sound like the 'other' thread you referred to was recent and recently locked.
Click to expand...


I had trouble wording the opening. Oops.

---------- Post added at 03:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:18 PM ----------




Chellemonkey said:


> sevenzedek said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would never allow an unbeliever to lead me in prayer for that would communicate my agreement with their faulty understanding of God. On the other hand, it seems the onus is on the unbeliever to have faith toward God if I am the one leading the prayer just like the onus was on Judas when Jesus prayed, doubtless, countless times with all his disciples.
> 
> 
> 
> Again I think it is not our place to judge the heart of every man. If I was at an event where the leader was someone I believed was not a true believer and they prayed for the group I would probably bow my head and pray silently that the person not cause harm our confusion to those of the body and for the salvation of the one praying falsely. If it was one on one with someone who was openly not a believer or in a more intimate group I would probably object and try to kindly explain why.
Click to expand...


I do not mean to imply that I am trying to judge people's hearts. On the other hand, I do believe that the Scriptures teach us to judge people's actions as being in line or out of line with the word of God in order to do the most loving thing for people.

My interest in this topic is not for the purpose of finding some way to be ultra critical about other people. My purpose is to find what is most beneficial for others and most glorifying to God. My goal is to not dishonor God and to not help others cover up the sin that would kill them.

---------- Post added at 03:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:45 PM ----------




Chellemonkey said:


> sevenzedek said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would never allow an unbeliever to lead me in prayer for that would communicate my agreement with their faulty understanding of God. On the other hand, it seems the onus is on the unbeliever to have faith toward God if I am the one leading the prayer just like the onus was on Judas when Jesus prayed, doubtless, countless times with all his disciples.
> 
> 
> 
> Again I think it is not our place to judge the heart of every man. If I was at an event where the leader was someone I believed was not a true believer and they prayed for the group I would probably bow my head and pray silently that the person not cause harm our confusion to those of the body and for the salvation of the one praying falsely. If it was one on one with someone who was openly not a believer or in a more intimate group I would probably object and try to kindly explain why.
Click to expand...


I do not mean to imply that I am trying to judge people's hearts. On the other hand, I do believe that the Scriptures teach us to judge people's actions as being in line or out of line with the word of God in order to do the most loving thing for people.

My interest in this topic is not for the purpose of finding some way to be ultra critical about other people. My purpose is to find what is most beneficial for others and most glorifying to God. My goal is to not dishonor God and to not help others cover up the sin that would kill them.

---------- Post added at 03:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:45 PM ----------




christiana said:


> Was it wrong when I was taught long ago that the only prayer of an unbeliever that God hears is 'God, have mercy on my soul?'



I think there is some truth to that teaching. The prayer could be worded differently still be accepted by God. Of course, qualifications would need to be made because of that statement that Jesus made that we all know so well, No one comes to the Father except through me.


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## KMK

sevenzedek said:


> My interest in this topic is not for the purpose of finding some way to be ultra critical about other people.



Then your question is, "Should we pray with those who profess NOT to be believers?" For otherwise I don't think you have any grounds to judge them one way or the other. You cannot accurately judge a man's heart by his behavior alone.


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## toddpedlar

sevenzedek said:


> Todd,
> 
> I appreciate the consummation of your argument because it ends with love. Do those with whom we pray know their need for Christ? Do they know what is required for salvation? I agree that these questions are far weightier to my question here. But my question contributes to the discussion. The whole reason for asking my question is for the purposes of knowing what is sinful and identifying what might stand in a person's way of salvation. At times, while praying with my brother, and even some of my in-laws, I felt as though I were giving tacit approval to their lifestyle of unbelief.



The thing that most directly stands in the way of anyone's salvation is their own sin, and not your actions (which you've already acknowledged is not in and of itself sinful in the case of praying over a meal with your unbelieving family. Their reception of your actions has more to do with their own sinful condition than your actions themselves. It may well be that the mere fact that you continue to visit with them for meals is giving them all the acceptance they need to think you approve. Do you think you should shun them? I really do think you're analyzing this a bit much - just love them, and shine the light of Christ on them. Pray for meals as it befitting to do so. Invite them to worship. Tell them you're praying for them. Be a friend as well as a blood-brother to your brother. 

One thing you've not shared with us is why you consider your family to be unbelievers. Are they church-attenders, and therefore you believe them to be deceived to such a high degree as that, or do they reject the church? In the case of those extremes, HOW you love them definitely will differ... but I think none of it has any bearing on whether you should pray at mealtime with them. Consider the impact of having prayed at mealtimes previously, and suddenly stopping. What would they think of that? Could that, too, be a stumbling block? I should think it would be.


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## AThornquist

If one shouldn't pray with unbelievers, having family worship may become difficult if you have children who don't profess Christ.


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## Rich Koster

I believe we can pray in the presence of anyone. The thing we should avoid is praying _with_ someone of unknown or questionable Christian status. If a few people join together to pray for ___________, and one breaks out in "Hail Mary", this would be a mess. You would have to stop them or walk away from it and express why, or you would be condoning their idolatry. Attending "interfaith" prayer groups I would consider an abomination, because you would be joining Christ to idolaters.


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## rbcbob

AThornquist said:


> If one shouldn't pray with unbelievers, having family worship may become difficult if you have children who don't profess Christ.



Andrew I believe there is something of a consensus in this thread regarding what is being deliberated with regard to the proposition *pray with the unconverted*. Certainly our children learn much from us about prayer and the God to whom we pray. As minors in the home we are in no danger of being entangled in joint prayer which brings to the mix competing deities or religions.


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## AThornquist

If unconverted children can learn much from us about prayer and the God to whom we pray, then wouldn't other unbelievers as well?


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## toddpedlar

It's becoming quite evident in this thread that there are several different conceptions going on about what people think Jon is asking about. I have been operating under the assumption that Jon is leading prayer at his house when meals are served, and no more than that. Others seem to be thinking about groups of people getting together for prayer and each participating vocally. These are at the very least horses of different colors. 

Can we clarify before continuing? Jon, what exactly are you talking about when you are looking into the question of praying with unbelieving relatives? There are two things that I think need clarification. 1) What do you mean by unbelieving? Are they openly non-Christian, once-in-a-while attend church "I'm a Christian" type of Christians, or what? 2) What do you mean by prayer with them? 

Thank you. I hope we can wait on proceeding further until Jon has had the chance to clarify.


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## AThornquist

I'm not sure about praying _with_ adult unbelievers, but I've been blessed by praying _for_ them and in the midst of them. One morning, about 2:00, my drunken neighbors in the apartment below me were screaming and threatening to kill each other as usual. I was seriously annoyed because for the first year of living in KY I slept on the floor, so I heard everything they said. I went downstairs, got screamed at, eased my way in and asked them what the real problems were. They told me a list of serious things. I sympathized with them and asked to pray for them. In my prayer, I asked that the Lord would save them. The woman, Sandy, asked me what "saved" meant. I went until about 3:30-4:00 am explaining the Gospel to them and two of Sandy's adult children who came to the house at about 2:30 am. It was glorious, and ever since I have been thrilled to pray for unbelievers. If unbelievers prayed in my midst, I would hopefully find an opportunity to explain the Gospel to them and tie it to the prayer they prayed.


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## yoyoceramic

How about the Lord's prayer...... "*Our* Father..."


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## Edward

sevenzedek said:


> How do you handle praying while unbelievers are present.



I do it in church every Sunday morning.


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## sevenzedek

There are many opportunities that I take to pray with relatives before meals. Some of these relatives confess Christ but live in blatant and egregious sins. They may be saved, but they are giving very strong evidence that they are not saved because of their unrepentance. Because they are my in-laws, I have refrained from discussing their sin with them because my wife has already done so. They haven't repented, but they continue to talk of God as though he were their friend or side-kick. I feel ashamed for them whenever we pray before meals. It is during these times that my concern for them is most heightened. Also, it grieves me as I know that they pray hypocritically as I pray. What is on my heart during those times is to ask God to save them from their sick behavior as I pray right in front of them, but I don't. I don't pray what is on my heart. I feel the urgency to address the sin that is killing them but I don't want to stir up strife and be an agent of their hardening. So, my wife and I continue to pray before meals with them. We continue to pray in secret for their souls. We continue to wait for opportunities to point to their sin and to Christ who is the cure. It is sad. We continue to tread lightly around them for the good of their souls. I feel like this whole mess that they are in is like a sliver—the more we try to help, the further they are hurt. They defend their sin valiantly and think that God forgives them as they live like the devil.


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## rbcbob

sevenzedek said:


> Also, it grieves me as I know that they pray hypocritically as I pray. What is on my heart during those times is to ask God to save them from their sick behavior as I pray right in front of them, but I don't. I don't pray what is on my heart. I feel the urgency to address the sin that is killing them but I don't want to stir up strife and be an agent of their hardening.



Jon, I appreciate the tension that you feel. It is helpful to remember that *praying* is not the same thing as *preaching*. When you pray, pray. Do not preach when you pray.


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## RobertPGH1981

The bible tells us to pray for those who persecute you, which would also mean praying for unbelievers. I would extend this to say pray for everyone. 

What would be the difference if we pray for and pray with them?


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## sevenzedek

rbcbob said:


> sevenzedek said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, it grieves me as I know that they pray hypocritically as I pray. What is on my heart during those times is to ask God to save them from their sick behavior as I pray right in front of them, but I don't. I don't pray what is on my heart. I feel the urgency to address the sin that is killing them but I don't want to stir up strife and be an agent of their hardening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jon, I appreciate the tension that you feel. It is helpful to remember that *praying* is not the same thing as *preaching*. When you pray, pray. Do not preach when you pray.
Click to expand...


The reason I never prayed for their salvation right in front of them is because, uh, that would just be weird. Also, I realize I am praying to God and not to them. What is ironic is that this is one of those times one should be encouraged to NOT pray all that is on the heart.


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## earl40

RobertPGH1981 said:


> The bible tells us to pray for those who persecute you, which would also mean praying for unbelievers. I would extend this to say pray for everyone.
> 
> What would be the difference if we pray for and pray with them?



The difference is between the word "for" and "with".


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## RobertPGH1981

earl40 said:


> The difference is between the word "for" and "with".



I don't believe that God intends us to be that technical. If we can pray for them, then I doubt it would wrong to pray with them. What would be wrong with asking a non-believer if there is anything you could pray for them about, and then standing with them and praying for them? This would be especially true if they want you to pray that God will open their eyes to the truth. That God would bring them to repentance if that would be their desire. If this happens I would say God is already working in their heart, but in either case we should still pray for non-believers.

If a non-believer asked you to pray with them, you would tell them no?


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## J. Dean

The question boils down to whether or not said unbeliever is given the wrong impression that has has right standing with God vs. say, praying with an unbeliever for healing but recognizing that the unbeliever is still an unbeliever and making him understand that in no uncertain terms.

Does that make sense?


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## earl40

RobertPGH1981 said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The difference is between the word "for" and "with".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe that God intends us to be that technical. If we can pray for them, then I doubt it would wrong to pray with them. What would be wrong with asking a non-believer if there is anything you could pray for them about, and then standing with them and praying for them? This would be especially true if they want you to pray that God will open their eyes to the truth. That God would bring them to repentance if that would be their desire. If this happens I would say God is already working in their heart, but in either case we should still pray for non-believers.
> 
> If a non-believer asked you to pray with them, you would tell them no?
Click to expand...


Of course I would. Take for instance if I "know" or suspect a person is an unbeliever (yes I judge the state of many people current soul) I would use pronouns like "me" and "I" and pray FOR them. Now if I "know" or suspect they dio believe in Jesus I will use the pronouns "us" and "our". In mixed company I rather not pray at all for I believe prayer is a true form of worship and I suspect we would agree that God does not want us to mix any worship with those He has not justified. Of course I understand the pastor does indeed do such, BUT I have noticed many that times the pastor will call the congregation to worship knowing he is calling all believers to come and worship God in spirit and truth.


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## toddpedlar

earl40 said:


> In mixed company I rather not pray at all for I believe prayer is a true form of worship and I suspect we would agree that God does not want us to mix any worship with those He has not justified. Of course I understand the pastor does indeed do such, BUT I have noticed many that times the pastor will call the congregation to worship knowing he is calling all believers to come and worship God in spirit and truth.



So God does not want us to mix any worship with those He has not justified?

Then He does not want the church to meet corporately.


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## earl40

toddpedlar said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> 
> In mixed company I rather not pray at all for I believe prayer is a true form of worship and I suspect we would agree that God does not want us to mix any worship with those He has not justified. Of course I understand the pastor does indeed do such, BUT I have noticed many that times the pastor will call the congregation to worship knowing he is calling all believers to come and worship God in spirit and truth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So God does not want us to mix any worship with those He has not justified?
> 
> Then He does not want the church to meet corporately.
Click to expand...


I hear you and understand where you are coming from. Now would your church invite the Mormons down the street to worship at your church? If not why not?


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## Edward

earl40 said:


> Now would your church invite the Mormons down the street to worship at your church?



I'd love to have some Mormons visit our church. And Catholics, and Muslims (but I'd sit where I could keep an eye on them) and perhaps even Dispensationalists. Wouldn't you?


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## earl40

sevenzedek said:


> My biblical warrant is that Jesus prayed during the Passover supper while Judas was present at the table.



I just went through the gospels and when I did I see only one reference to Jesus giving praise and it appears to be after Judas left the table. In one gospel Jesus tells him to do what he is going to do "quickly" (I assume Judas left then) and in Matthews gospel it says Jesus gave thanks after He spoke of one who will betray Him. I am open to correction.

---------- Post added at 07:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:14 PM ----------




Edward said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now would your church invite the Mormons down the street to worship at your church?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd love to have some Mormons visit our church. And Catholics, and Muslims (but I'd sit where I could keep an eye on them) and perhaps even Dispensationalists. Wouldn't you?
Click to expand...


Of course I would. Though I would be interested to hear if you would invite an entire JW ward to visit to worship WITH your church?


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## toddpedlar

earl40 said:


> toddpedlar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> 
> In mixed company I rather not pray at all for I believe prayer is a true form of worship and I suspect we would agree that God does not want us to mix any worship with those He has not justified. Of course I understand the pastor does indeed do such, BUT I have noticed many that times the pastor will call the congregation to worship knowing he is calling all believers to come and worship God in spirit and truth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So God does not want us to mix any worship with those He has not justified?
> 
> Then He does not want the church to meet corporately.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I hear you and understand where you are coming from. Now would your church invite the Mormons down the street to worship at your church? If not why not?
Click to expand...


Yes, and any other unbelievers. And Christ and Him crucified would as always be preached.

My point is there may be and likely are unbelieving people in most true churches, and their existence does not, and indeed must not stop or cause us to feel subconscious about exercising in true prayer, preaching or the sacraments rightly administered. Their presence at least some of the time is assured, but the church cannot and must not cease being the church.


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## toddpedlar

earl40 said:


> sevenzedek said:
> 
> 
> 
> My biblical warrant is that Jesus prayed during the Passover supper while Judas was present at the table.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just went through the gospels and when I did I see only one reference to Jesus giving praise and it appears to be after Judas left the table. In one gospel Jesus tells him to do what he is going to do "quickly" (I assume Judas left then) and in Matthews gospel it says Jesus gave thanks after He spoke of one who will betray Him. I am open to correction.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 07:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:14 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edward said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now would your church invite the Mormons down the street to worship at your church?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'd love to have some Mormons visit our church. And Catholics, and Muslims (but I'd sit where I could keep an eye on them) and perhaps even Dispensationalists. Wouldn't you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course I would. Though I would be interested to hear if you would invite an entire JW ward to visit to worship WITH your church?
Click to expand...


Why not? now you realize nobody is going to do this inviting while referring to the JW's as Christians, or let them "run the show", but rather they would be welcomed in as a collection of unbelievers, indeed as would anyone off the street be invited.


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## toddpedlar

Really though it's time to stop assembling the strawmen, Earl.


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## Loopie

This is a very interesting discussion, though it seems that some participants do not differentiate between praying 'for' someone and praying 'with' someone. I myself probably would make a distinction between those terms. Allow me to explain.

I have several atheist friends that I have been friends with for almost ten years. One of them is a self proclaimed 'agnostic', although I can tell that he has a lot of anger towards God. My other friend is simply too prideful (and hateful) to even acknowledge that God exists (he is the kind of person who would never bow the knee to anyone, let alone Christ).

Now if one of them were to come up to me and ask me to pray 'with' them, I would at first be surprised, but would gladly do so. I mean, how many atheists would actually ask you to pray 'with' them unless perhaps God has changed them (or is preparing their hearts in some way)? 

At the same time, I often tell them that I am praying 'for' them, although I always include in my prayers that they might repent of their sin and recognize Christ as Lord. So far they don't seem to mind me praying 'for' them, although sometimes they give a sarcastic remark when I say that I am going to do that.

On the other hand, there are also times where I asked them if they want me to pray 'for' them. In general the answer is: "I don't care", or "If you want to". So usually I just do it anyways. Again, those who are hostile to God are not often going to be concerned if you are praying for them or not.

Lastly, there is never a time where I have asked them to pray 'with' me. Even so, when I have them over for dinner I still pray over the meal, and sometimes my 'less hostile' friend actually says 'thank you for the prayer'. I have no doubt though that the 'more hostile' one is either very uncomfortable or simply tunes me out. Either way, they both know what to expect when they come over to my house, but in that situation I am not praying 'with' them, but simply am praying in front of them.

With that said, I think that there is no reason not to pray 'for' someone, regardless of their beliefs. As for praying 'in front of' someone, I also think there is no reason not to do this (we should not be afraid to pray around strangers or unbelievers). In the example of praying over the meal, I do not expect my atheist friends to actually pray 'with' me, and I certainly am not forcing them to pray 'with' me. I still pray in front of them regardless of what they think, and I do not let their unbelief make me uncomfortable about praying. 

Now when it comes to praying 'with' someone, I think it can be divided into two different scenarios:

1) If anyone asks me to pray 'with' them, I will never say no. Even if I have known them to be an atheist for decades, I do not know what God has done to their hearts recently, and so this becomes an easy 'yes'. 

2) I am not going to ask someone to pray 'with' me unless I believe them to be a Christian. Obviously I do not infallibly know their heart, but if they profess Christ as Lord, then I would have no problem praying 'with' them, whether they ask me to or I ask them to. This is very different than me praying 'for' a complete stranger that I meet on the street, because when you are praying 'with' someone it implies that both of you are in an attitude of prayer and worship to God. In all other situations, when you are praying 'for' someone, it implies that only you are in an attitude of prayer and worship to God, regardless of who you are praying for and who is around you when you are praying.

Thoughts?


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## earl40

toddpedlar said:


> Really though it's time to stop assembling the strawmen, Earl.



Yes you are correct. I apologize for doing so. 

Now let me give a real example. At my work, a SDA hospital, they start every meeting with a word of prayer and encourage everyone to start every meeting with a word of prayer. Now we that at the meetings are "trapped" in being there while they pray. Now I use "we" as those that are believers being there while a prayer is lead by an unbeliever, or "we" are trapped being there while the prayer is lead by an unbeliever. I feel bad for those that are unbelievers having to be there against their will. I also feel VERY BAD about being there when the prayer is lead by an unbeliever, which BTW I put up with and get over a little too quickly than I probably should.

Todd what about your thoughts on Judas being present while Jesus "gave thanks" at the last supper, and what I wrote about earlier in that it appears he (Judas) left before He gave thanks?

---------- Post added at 11:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 AM ----------




Loopie said:


> This is a very interesting discussion, though it seems that some participants do not differentiate between praying 'for' someone and praying 'with' someone. I myself probably would make a distinction between those terms. Allow me to explain.
> 
> I have several atheist friends that I have been friends with for almost ten years. One of them is a self proclaimed 'agnostic', although I can tell that he has a lot of anger towards God. My other friend is simply too prideful (and hateful) to even acknowledge that God exists (he is the kind of person who would never bow the knee to anyone, let alone Christ).
> 
> Now if one of them were to come up to me and ask me to pray 'with' them, I would at first be surprised, but would gladly do so. I mean, how many atheists would actually ask you to pray 'with' them unless perhaps God has changed them (or is preparing their hearts in some way)?
> 
> At the same time, I often tell them that I am praying 'for' them, although I always include in my prayers that they might repent of their sin and recognize Christ as Lord. So far they don't seem to mind me praying 'for' them, although sometimes they give a sarcastic remark when I say that I am going to do that.
> 
> On the other hand, there are also times where I asked them if they want me to pray 'for' them. In general the answer is: "I don't care", or "If you want to". So usually I just do it anyways. Again, those who are hostile to God are not often going to be concerned if you are praying for them or not.
> 
> Lastly, there is never a time where I have asked them to pray 'with' me. Even so, when I have them over for dinner I still pray over the meal, and sometimes my 'less hostile' friend actually says 'thank you for the prayer'. I have no doubt though that the 'more hostile' one is either very uncomfortable or simply tunes me out. Either way, they both know what to expect when they come over to my house, but in that situation I am not praying 'with' them, but simply am praying in front of them.
> 
> With that said, I think that there is no reason not to pray 'for' someone, regardless of their beliefs. As for praying 'in front of' someone, I also think there is no reason not to do this (we should not be afraid to pray around strangers or unbelievers). In the example of praying over the meal, I do not expect my atheist friends to actually pray 'with' me, and I certainly am not forcing them to pray 'with' me. I still pray in front of them regardless of what they think, and I do not let their unbelief make me uncomfortable about praying.
> 
> Now when it comes to praying 'with' someone, I think it can be divided into two different scenarios:
> 
> 1) If anyone asks me to pray 'with' them, I will never say no. Even if I have known them to be an atheist for decades, I do not know what God has done to their hearts recently, and so this becomes an easy 'yes'.
> 
> 2) I am not going to ask someone to pray 'with' me unless I believe them to be a Christian. Obviously I do not infallibly know their heart, but if they profess Christ as Lord, then I would have no problem praying 'with' them, whether they ask me to or I ask them to. This is very different than me praying 'for' a complete stranger that I meet on the street, because when you are praying 'with' someone it implies that both of you are in an attitude of prayer and worship to God. In all other situations, when you are praying 'for' someone, it implies that only you are in an attitude of prayer and worship to God, regardless of who you are praying for and who is around you when you are praying.
> 
> Thoughts?



I thought this was great. I believe you have conveyed my thoughts better than I have in that there is a difference between "for" and "with".


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