# The American Flag: In Our Sanctuaries???



## ARStager (Jan 11, 2005)

I'm curious what you all think about the presence of the American flag...or, for that matter, the Christian flag, in our places of worship. 

Should they be present? Why or why not? 

I'm not sophistocated enough to set up a poll yet, but if someone _is_ that savvy, please go right ahead.


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## ARStager (Jan 11, 2005)

And, additionally...how many of you have flags in your sanctuaries? 

They are both in the church I'm currently attending...at the front corners.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 11, 2005)

I think it is a reflection of America's civil religion (as distinct from the Christian religion) that we find American flags in church buildings near the pulpit. Some also have "Christian flags." I find no warrant for either in Scripture. These are akin in my view to the _English Popish Ceremonies_ and customs that Gillespie wrote about.


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## ARStager (Jan 11, 2005)

Do you have them in YOUR church, Andrew?


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## Puritan Sailor (Jan 11, 2005)

I disagree with the practice. I think they may fall under graven images. There is no such thing as a "christian" flag anyway, at least according to Scripture.


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## ARStager (Jan 11, 2005)

What about YOUR church, Patrick. It'd be interesting to find out the % of folks here who disagree with the practice, but yet find them present in their sanctuaries. It'd also be interesting to note the denominational breakdown of the have's and the have-not's


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## doulosChristou (Jan 11, 2005)

I don't accept the continuance of sanctuaries, altars, holy places, sacred space, and other shadows of things that have already come. That said, I do believe in the RPW. A national or regional flag or other banners have no Scriptural place in our worship of God, in my opinion. If we were to worship with our reformed brethren in an unauthorized church in China, I doubt we'd find a communist flag prominently displayed. When we gather for worship, we gather corporately under the unseen banner of the Lord. If I enter any reformed church, I expect to find no crosses, crucifixes, images of Christ or other icons, but the breaking of bread, prayer, preaching of the word, devotion to the apostle's teaching, and the teaching and admonishing of one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs. Nothing added to Scripture.


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## Puritan Sailor (Jan 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ARStager_
> What about YOUR church, Patrick. It'd be interesting to find out the % of folks here who disagree with the practice, but yet find them present in their sanctuaries. It'd also be interesting to note the denominational breakdown of the have's and the have-not's



My last two reformed churches have not had the flags. I've been in very few reformed churches that do. I did visit one last week that had them. But the church we've been visiting most down here, and will probably stick with, does not have the flags posted.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ARStager_
> Do you have them in YOUR church, Andrew?



Nope.


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## doulosChristou (Jan 11, 2005)

We have no flags in our assembly.


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## JohnV (Jan 11, 2005)

We don't have an American flag in our sanctuary either. But that may be because we're Canadian. 

In my home church, in the OPC, there is both a Canadian flag and a (I take it) Presbyterian flag. There are also four banners, as well as a picture of the Queen. But before you get the wrong idea, let me say that the building is rented from the PCC, and they don't like us moving things around or removing things just for our services. We have to put up with it. We use the building more than they do, but it belongs to them.

In the place where I am presently worshipping, there are no banners, no flags, no anything. Only the number boards and that big gigantic organ box.


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## ARStager (Jan 11, 2005)

Gregory.

I especially like your comments, and that's the way I see it, too---and I'm guessing that Patrick and Andrew are in agreement. 

I might add that I see no essential problem with emblems of state, so long as they're not invoked (explicitly or implicitly) in worship in the Christian church. Aside from the idolatry they may present, there's an essential confusion of the two kingdoms. If you're going to have a city-planning meeting where your church meets for worship, on Wednesday night, and you want to bring in the flags and the city seal, go right ahead. Just don't put them there when the assembly gathers for worship.

I wonder what the rest of ya'll think of Gregory's comments about sacred space. How do we deal with that term--and is there a reformed and faithful sense in which sacred space is still real? Perhaps in their set-apart-ness? Like the bread and wine and water, and ink and paper, and for that matter, the vocal cords, intellects, etc. of the faithful being set apart from a common to an holy usage by virtue of the service?


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## Puritan Sailor (Jan 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by JohnV_
> that big gigantic organ box.



I consider that a graven image too!


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## blhowes (Jan 11, 2005)

I use to attend a church that had the American flag and the Christian flag at the front of the sanctuary. During opening exercises (before Sunday School) we'd pledge to the American flag and then to the Christian flag. It was a non-reformed baptist church. I wonder how common this practice is.


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## doulosChristou (Jan 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ARStager_
> ... the faithful being set apart ...



Bingo. We, corporately, are a royal and holy priesthood and the temple of the Holy Spirit. An interesting study to do for those who take the time is to count the number of holy things (places, objects, days) and holy persons (including the Holy Spirit) in the Old Testament and then do the same in the New Testament. Comparing the results is very telling.


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## ARStager (Jan 11, 2005)

Wow, the pledge during Sunday school!? 

I remember thinking it was odd enough to pledge at this Christian school I substitute taught at. But then that's a murky subject too.


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## ARStager (Jan 11, 2005)

So what does one do to try and reform this ugly practice? My church was established before Napoleon took power, so something tells me that traditions die especially hard there.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 11, 2005)

The pledge is an aspect of that civil religion that I was referring to. It confounds national pride with Biblical religion.


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## JohnV (Jan 11, 2005)

Bob:

My general impression of Americans (Little House on the Prairie style Americanism, I suppose) is that being "one nation under God" they had no difficulty with a national flag in the place of worship. As a separation of powers, yes they had a thing about church and state; but as a people they were Christians and they were Americans under God. The church/state thing is now entirely different, after the "melting pot" times.


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## ARStager (Jan 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> The pledge is an aspect of that civil religion that I was referring to. It confounds national pride with Biblical religion.



I agree. It has to go from our church assemblies. Not necessarily, I don't think, from our civic citizenship. Daniel said "O King, Live forever!", after all.


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## ARStager (Jan 11, 2005)

But I guess there IS a fine line between a pledge to a flag and worshipping the sign or the thing it signifies.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 11, 2005)

I have problems pledging allegiance to any flag under any circumstances. I also have problems with the wording and origin of the US pledge in particular. In any case, the church is not the place for such a ceremony.


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## Peter (Jan 11, 2005)

Leslie's Banner is in the church I go to, right above the pulpit. I wonder about that. 

I will not pledge my allegiance (and conscientously submit) to an Godless, unrighteous republic.


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## JohnV (Jan 11, 2005)

BTW, does anyone have a website I can go to to see this so-called "Christian flag"?


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## JohnV (Jan 11, 2005)

Never mind, I found it.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Peter_
> Leslie's Banner is in the church I go to, right above the pulpit. I wonder about that.
> 
> I will not pledge my allegiance (and conscientously submit) to an Godless, unrighteous republic.



Man, you sound like a Covenanter!


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## Peter (Jan 11, 2005)

What do you think of having the banner right in the church? As a former RP, you must have encountered this. The banner presents the same problem as a flag, no?


[Edited on 11-1-2005 by Peter]


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## JohnV (Jan 11, 2005)

I'm agin' it.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Peter_
> What do you think of having the banner right in the church? As a former RP, you must have encountered this. The banner presents the same problem as a flag, no?
> 
> 
> [Edited on 11-1-2005 by Peter]



Good question. I love the banner. I love the Covenanter slogan. I don't have the same problem with the banner as with the national (or "Christian" flag). That may be an inconsistency that I haven't fully worked out yet, but there it is.


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## yeutter (Jan 11, 2005)

I have no problem with soldiers taking an oath and fighting under a flag. But should the pledge be required of the civilain population? 
Don't all banners become an icon if they are inserted in the place where the Kirk worships?


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## Robin (Jan 11, 2005)

The URCNA - self consciously - has no flags displayed in the sanctuary. Our building particularly, is a 7th Day Adventist church (the landlords) - and the flags are removed each Lord's Day for our services.

While previously mentioned reasons (graven images/American religious idolatry) are right - and URCNA would heartily agree....there's something more to think about on this subject....

There are two kingdoms: the Kingdom of God; the kingdom of Man. (Augustine's "The City of God; the City of Man")  Christians have "dual" citizenship - that should never be confused. We are first: citizens of God's Kingdom (which is NOT of this world); secondarily, citizen's of the "world" in the sense of our nationality.

Uncomfortable as it might be to learn, God will NOT be made a mascot of any nation on earth - His agendas are never to be presumed to be preferring any nation over another. Joshua learned this firsthand (Joshua 5:13-15). This is not because any one nation has more true Believers or not - or having more or less evils. Rather it is because God is redeeming His people from the peoples of the earth in a different way we think He is. 

A thorough study of God's political agenda in Scripture reveals this. The theme of the entire Bible is about God's Kingdom - language about Kingdom can be explicit and/or implied. Understanding the Covenants is the key in this.

Pause and reflect: Jesus was arrested because the Pharisees confused the two kingdoms! The church at Rome installs the Papacy as a world-governmental power. Church History is full of this grievous error - confusing God's Kingdom with man's nationality always brings disaster.

Much more can be said....which is important....HOW does this affect the Christian life? Practically speaking. But, before we get to that -- we must do the hard work of thinking Biblically on the matter. The idolatry issue barely touches the tip of the iceberg.

Is anybody interested in going further? It's probably another topic thread.



Robin


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## blhowes (Jan 11, 2005)

I've never thought much about it, but when we pledge allegiance to a flag, what exactly are we pledging or promising? What is it that makes it wrong (if it is)?

Here's the pledge that we use to say. What does it mean to pledge allegiance to the Christian flag?


> I pledge allegiance to the Christian flag and to the saviour for whose kingdom it stands. One saviour, crucified, risen, and coming again, with life and liberty to all who believe.


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## blhowes (Jan 11, 2005)

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. After we pledged to the US flag and the Christian flag, we then grabbed our Bibles and made the following pledge:

I pledge allegiance to the Bible, God's Holy Word. I will make it a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path, and will hide its words in my heart that I might not sin against God.

Thoughts?


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## Peter (Jan 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by yeutter_
> I have no problem with soldiers taking an oath and fighting under a flag. But should the pledge be required of the civilain population?
> Don't all banners become an icon if they are inserted in the place where the Kirk worships?



Respectfully, I do have a problem with the enlistment oath of the Armed Forces. I know there are many here who would probably disagree. I am greatful for the sacrifice and service of our soldiers but I must denounce the oath as sin.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Peter_
> ...



What's your take on this Peter?


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Peter_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by yeutter_
> ...


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by blhowes_
> Oh yeah, I almost forgot. After we pledged to the US flag and the Christian flag, we then grabbed our Bibles and made the following pledge:
> 
> I pledge allegiance to the Bible, God's Holy Word. I will make it a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path, and will hide its words in my heart that I might not sin against God.
> ...



In my humble opinion, a pledge of allegiance to the Bible or the Christian flag seems like a corny attempt to copy the US pledge of allegiance. First of all, I don't acknowledge that there is a Christian flag -- at least not one with Biblical warrant. Second, we have church membership vows and other appropriate examples of professing our faith. Why pledge allegiance? I would again hearken back to the Confession's statement on oaths and vows.


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## Peter (Jan 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> ...



I don't know. The sanctuary of my church is completely whitewashed otherwise, I wish they would just move it to the back room. It seems like such an insignificant little matter, I would be embarrassed to bring it up. Definiately if there is something wrong with the Christian Flag in the church then there is also something wrong with Leslie's Banner.


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## Peter (Jan 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by blhowes_
> ...



 I can't see any thing immediately wrong with it. It just sounds really goofy.


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## blhowes (Jan 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> Second, we have church membership vows and other appropriate examples of professing our faith. Why pledge allegiance?


I was trying to think what practice in the reformed churches would be the closest to pledging to the Christian flag. Reciting the Apostle's Creed came to mind, but that's still completely different. Church membership vows might be the closest.


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## ARStager (Jan 11, 2005)

I'm clueless about all this covenanter kirkish stuff, except that I had a Scotsman in my wedding who was all about his kilt and the Scottish games ("people getting sloshed and throwing heavy things"), but who was far from a presbyterian. 

I've got some history reading to do.

But provisionally, I'd say that it's silly to have anything hanging anywhere in the sanctuary. If we don't like having Christ hanging on the cross, we sure shouldn't substitute that with anything representing anything else. 

Word, Sacrament, Benediction. Then go live in the profane until the next assembly.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 11, 2005)

Here's a short history of the origins of the Pledge of Allegiance: http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm


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## ARStager (Jan 11, 2005)

Robin:

You're such a product of your pastors! And good for you! I think this IS the forum and thread for the additional two-kingdom assertions you made. This is huge, and you put it quite well.


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## blhowes (Jan 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Peter_
> I can't see any thing immediately wrong with it. It just sounds really goofy.


I guess it depends on your perspective. If you're in a church that doesn't recognize the creeds and confessions, this type of thing tends to build unity around common doctrine. If, on the other hand, you're use to reciting the creeds and the WCF or the 1689 confession, this type of thing would seem goofy.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by joshua_
> Andrew (VirginiaHuguenot), I'm going to nick name you "resource". That's what you should change your username to!



 heh heh


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## Peter (Jan 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ARStager_
> I'm clueless about all this covenanter kirkish stuff, except that I had a Scotsman in my wedding who was all about his kilt and the Scottish games ("people getting sloshed and throwing heavy things"), but who was far from a presbyterian.
> 
> I've got some history reading to do.
> ...



Well, *you're* 1/2 covenanter according to your signature:


> Andrew R. Stager
> First Presbyterian Church, ARP (Columbia, SC)
> University of South Carolina, MA candidate in History, Columbia, SC



The Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (ARP) was created from a merger of the Reformed Presbyterian Church (RP) and the Seceder (Associate) Church. The covenanters are the RP so that makes you half covenanter. Of course there is bad blood between us (the RPC and the ARP) b/c you stole all our ministers and our Presbytery in the US had to dissolve (for a while anyway).


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 11, 2005)

> U.S. Code as of: 01/06/03
> Section 502. Enlistment oath: who may administer
> 
> Each person enlisting in an armed force shall take the following oath:
> ...


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## Peter (Jan 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> 
> 
> > U.S. Code as of: 01/06/03
> ...


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## RamistThomist (Jan 11, 2005)

My church does not have a flag in it. My problems with the pledge of allegiance stem from the phrase, "indivisble," you WILL be united!


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## ARStager (Jan 11, 2005)

> The Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (ARP) was created from a merger of the Reformed Presbyterian Church (RP) and the Seceder (Associate) Church. The covenanters are the RP so that makes you half covenanter. Of course there is bad blood between us (the RPC and the ARP) b/c you stole all our ministers and our Presbytery in the US had to dissolve (for a while anyway).



Thanks for explaining all of this to me. My wife and I joined a PCA church upon being accused of being "reformed" by our Grace Brethren pastor (when we didn't even know what he meant by it), and all that went down a year ago. We just plopped down in First Pres, ARP, upon moving here (it's 5 blocks away), just a few months ago. 

Sorry for stealing your clergy. You should have done this:  to them, I'm afraid. Instead, they walked away, with new signing bonuses, and succeeded to do something on the order of this: 

I don't know what just got into me there. I'll have to read up on the covenanters, because I haven't a clue what I am 1/2 of. 

All I know is I can't stand those freaking flags in our sanctuary.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> My church does not have a flag in it. My problems with the pledge of allegiance stem from the phrase, "indivisble," you WILL be united!



I think the phrase "indivisible" is directly related to post-1865 anti-secessionist thinking. The victors write the history books and the pledges.


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## ARStager (Jan 11, 2005)

> My church does not have a flag in it. My problems with the pledge of allegiance stem from the phrase, "indivisble," you WILL be united!



Yeah, that phrase is pretty much blatantly giving Americans the heritage of Nebuchadnezzar. 

Jesus: "I'll show you indivisible..."


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ARStager_
> I don't know what just got into me there. I'll have to read up on the covenanters, because I haven't a clue what I am 1/2 of.



I have listed some good resources for those who are interested in learning about the Scottish Covenanters previously on this thread: http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=7135


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## sastark (Jan 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> 
> 
> > U.S. Code as of: 01/06/03
> ...



And, so, why do you have a problem with this? Because it does not have a "in the Lord" clause?


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## ARStager (Jan 11, 2005)

Thank you, Andrew, I mean..."Refrerence"

You rock.


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## Peter (Jan 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ARStager_
> 
> 
> > The Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (ARP) was created from a merger of the Reformed Presbyterian Church (RP) and the Seceder (Associate) Church. The covenanters are the RP so that makes you half covenanter. Of course there is bad blood between us (the RPC and the ARP) b/c you stole all our ministers and our Presbytery in the US had to dissolve (for a while anyway).
> ...



Ah, no sweat, after all it was over 200 years ago. Let bygones be bygones.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by sastark_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> ...



Speaking for myself, the Constitution contains within it many specific clauses that I find unBiblical. I can list them if you like. The point is, I can't in good conscience swear an oath before God to support that document. It does not honor the Lord Jesus Christ as it should; in fact, it is in rebellion against Him. All nations are duty-bound to confess Jesus Christ as Lord and the Constitution does not. An "in the Lord" provision would be better but still less than ideal.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ARStager_
> Thank you, Andrew, I mean..."Refrerence"
> 
> You rock.



You're welcome!


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## Peter (Jan 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by sastark_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> ...



http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=5863

And yes, there is no mention of the Lord, in whose name we must make all our oaths.

[Edited on 11-1-2005 by Peter]


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## Puritan Sailor (Jan 11, 2005)

Lets keep it on topic guys or we will move from Worship to Politics. I think it's a legitimate question though most people probablly don't even know why those flags are in the sanctuaury. It's just something they've always done. I bet the practice probably goes back to WW2 as a show of support. But that's just a guess.


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## pastorway (Jan 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by puritansailor_
> most people probablly don't even know why those flags are in the sanctuaury. It's just something they've always done. I bet the practice probably goes back to WW2



Funny but true story. In a rural SBC church I pastored out in West Texas, the congregation decided it was time to get a new flag for the "sanctuary." We were not sure how old the old one really was, but it was dusty and faded so a new flag was purchased. (I was a pastor but not an elder so I did not have a say in it - our church will not have flags or other adornments in it). When they went to set up the new flag and asked what to do with the old one, a deacon spoke up and said he remembered when that flag was put in the church and he wanted it to take home and hang on his wall if he could. It was revealed upon close examination as the flag was removed that it had only 48 stars!!! The deacon wanted it because it represented for him "what these United States should still be." He said it was the flag before the last 2 useless states were admitted!


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## sastark (Jan 11, 2005)

> He said it was the flag before the last 2 useless states were admitted!



LOL! 

Yeah, Utah and Oregon are totally useless!


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