# The DUTY of PRAISE!?



## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 26, 2005)

The DUTY of Praise!

Okay, I am going to bite. 

What is the duty of praise in light of the RPW?

Heb 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. 


Is all Psalm singing Praise? 

What is the idea of worship in light of this question?


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 26, 2005)

Then say, "Save us, O God of our salvation, And gather us and deliver us from the nations, To give thanks to Thy holy name, And glory in Thy praise." (1 Chr 16:35)

"He is your praise and He is your God, who has done these great and awesome things for you which your eyes have seen. (Deut 10:21)

"The people whom I formed for Myself, Will declare My praise. (Isa 43:21)

There are several OT verses (and various Hebrew words) that describe praise as giving thanks to the Lord, confessing the name of the Lord, rejoicing in the Lord, exalting or extolling the glory of the Lord, adoring the Lord for His attributes and deeds, etc.

I'm not exactly sure what you're thinking of Matt.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 26, 2005)

And since it was mentioned again I will quote Calvins Commentaries for good reference.

Calvin on Colossians 3:16

Quote: 
Psalms, hymns. He does not restrict the word of Christ to these particular
departments, but rather intimates that all our communications should be
adapted to edification, that even those which tend to hilarity may have no 
empty savor. "œLeave to unbelievers that foolish delight which they take
from ludicrous and frivolous jests and witticisms; F189 and let your
communications, not merely those that are grave, but those also that are
joyful and exhilarating, contain something profitable. In place of their
obscene, or at least barely modest and decent, songs, it becomes you to
make use of hymns and songs that sound forth God´s praise." Farther,
under these three terms he includes all kinds of songs. They are commonly
distinguished in this way "” that a psalm is that, in the singing of which
some musical instrument besides the tongue is made use of: a hymn is
properly a song of praise, whether it be sung simply with the voice or
otherwise; while an ode contains not merely praises, but exhortations and
other matters. He would have the songs of Christians, however, to be
spiritual, not made up of frivolities and worthless trifles. For this has a
connection with his argument.
The clause, in grace, Chrysostom explains in different ways. I, however,
take it simply, as also afterwards, in <510406>Colossians 4:6, where he says,
"œLet your speech be seasoned with salt, in grace," that is, by way of a
dexterity that may be agreeable, and may please the hearers by its
profitableness, so that it may be opposed to buffoonery and similar trifles.
Singing in your hearts. This relates to disposition; for as we ought to stir
up others, so we ought also to sing from the heart, that there may not be
merely an external sound with the mouth. At the same time, we must not
understand it as though he would have every one sing inwardly to himself,
but he would have both conjoined, provided the heart goes before the
tongue. 


Calvin on Ephesians 5:19
Quote: 
19. To psalms, and hymns, and spiritual songs. These are truly pleasant
and delightful fruits. The Spirit means "œjoy in the Holy Ghost,"
(<451417>Romans 14:17 and the exhortation, be ye filled, (Ephesians 5.18,)
alludes to deep drinking, with which it is indirectly contrasted. Speaking to
themselves, is speaking among themselves. Nor does he enjoin them to
sing inwardly or alone; for he immediately adds, singing in your hearts; as
if he had said, "œLet your praises be not merely on the tongue, as
hypocrites do, but from the heart." What may be the exact difference
between psalms and hymns, or between hymns and songs, it is not easy to
determine, though a few remarks on this subject shall be offered on a future
occasion. F58 The appellation spiritual, given to these songs, is strikingly
appropriate; for the songs most frequently used are almost always on
trifling subjects, and very far from being chaste. 


This doesn't sound like accapella EP.

Notice GABE He mentions instruments like the debate.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 26, 2005)

> "Musical Instruments in celebrating the praises of God would be no more suitable than
> the burning of incense, the lighting of lamps, and the restoration of the other shadows of the law. The
> Papists therefore, have foolishly borrowed, this, as well as many other things, from the Jews. Men who
> are fond of outward pomp may delight in that noise; but the simplicity which God recommends to us by
> the apostles is far more pleasing to him."


*(Calvin, Commentary on Psalm 33, see also commentary on 1 Samuel 18:1-9)*


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 26, 2005)

In a more defined statement the word Psalm implies an instrument.


> a psalm is that, in the singing of which some musical instrument besides the tongue is made use of: John Calvin


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 26, 2005)

Does the word psalmos ALWAYS mean this? No.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 26, 2005)

Sorry Matt, We are off topic already.

Were is the command to constantly praise as a duty? And how are we commaned to give praise ?


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 26, 2005)

Praise is a sacrifice. (Heb 13:15)


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## BrianBowman (Jul 26, 2005)

Gabe,

May I ask something. If I as a musician and rengenerate child of God, play my instrument to His glory, is this not an act of praise? (thinking in terms of 1 Corinthians 10:31; Romans 11:36). Now I'm not speaking necessarily of using the instrument in corporate worship but simply playing skillfully - as for example David did to refresh Saul from the "evil spirit" in 1 Samuel 16.

[Edited on 7-27-2005 by BrianBowman]


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 26, 2005)

Would it glorify God? Yes. Would it be an act of worship? No. A big problem in our evangelical Christian circles today is the confusion over what it means to "worship." People chalk almost _everything_ up to worship these days. I'm not saying you do this at all, but I'm sure you are aware that it is an issue. It was especially (and still is) a serious problem/issue from my own Church background (Southern Baptist Convention).


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 26, 2005)

I think music is wonderful, by the way, and I have an enourmous musical library. I've played the guitar for 13 years and was in bands and toured for several years before surrendering my life to the pursuit of ministry. I LOVE music, and it affects me a great deal, although admittedly in an existential/emotional manner. This is, in large part, why I think we have to be very careful about how music is used among Christians, if at all (my conscience and Scripture forbids me to see it as appropriate for worship).

I think the situation with Saul being soothed by music just shows how deeply it affects our soul, and why we must be very careful to use it to influence others in any way, especially in the context of worship (which should be directed towards God, not ourselves). We edify, admonish, and teach one another through singing by the words, not the music. All music would do is affect and stir us emotionally/existentially.


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## Augusta (Jul 26, 2005)

Luke 19:
37 And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen; 

38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest. 

39 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples. 

40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 26, 2005)

*What is at the root of praise? What does Matt mean by our duty to praise?*

(Deu 6:4,5) "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.


(Deu 10:12,13) "And now, Israel, what does the LORD your God require of you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to keep the commandments and statutes of the LORD, which I am commanding you today for your good?



Jos 22:5 Only be very careful to observe the commandment and the law that Moses the servant of the LORD commanded you, to love the LORD your God, and to walk in all his ways and to keep his commandments and to cling to him and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul." 


(Mat 22:36-40) "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."


Mar 12:29-31) Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." 



This is a good beginning place. God commands for us to have a passion for him. No I am not a fan of Piper. I don't know enough about him to be a fan. 

Our duty to praise must flow from hearts that seek him whole heartedly. 

I admit Matt that I am not picking up on what you are looking for.

[Edited on 7-27-2005 by puritancovenanter]


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## Peter (Jul 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> Praise is a sacrifice. (Heb 13:15)



There was a thread earlier on corperate v. private worship. It turned out many ppl had the strange idea all of life was worship based on the verse 1 cor 10:31. They were identifying all things which glorify god as worship. Some of us struggled to demonstrate that worship is a deliberate act of offering up something to God. Prayer/praise is called calves of the lips, prayers of saints called insense, etc. I wonder if this is what matt is getting at?

http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=9538#pid139861


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## BrianBowman (Jul 26, 2005)

> Would it glorify God? Yes. Would it be an act of worship? No. A big problem in our evangelical Christian circles today is the confusion over what it means to "worship." People chalk almost everything up to worship these days. I'm not saying you do this at all, but I'm sure you are aware that it is an issue. It was especially (and still is) a serious problem/issue from my own Church background (Southern Baptist Convention).



Gabe,

I appreciate your comments immensely and find them very helpful and congruous with some of my own thinking. I agree with you that most of American Evangelicalism is quite confused about what worship really is. I also (now at the age for 45) much prefer to focus on the richness of Christ, His Word, and opportunities for ministry. Unlike you, I have not come into the conviction of conscience that music in worship is wrong, but I will never substitute it for the primary focus on Christ's Word and the sacrements. Like I'm certian you have, I've seen how instrumentalists in Church can compete, compare, and wound one another. This is not of God and if the ultimate solution for it is simple vocal-only music then I can at least acknowledge such an option, because I see how it once again exalts reverence for Christ over human performance. It is also true that on a practical level, the Sabbath is not nearly as restful when I have to play for two services.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> Does the word psalmos ALWAYS mean this? No.



What else does psalmos mean and how is the Hebrew word for Psalm defined?


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 26, 2005)

We are to worship God through singing *HIS* praises, not ours.



> I will bless the Lord at all times; *his praise* shall continually be in my mouth. (Psa 34:1)
> 
> Bless our God, O peoples; let the sound of *his praise* be heard, (Psa 66:8)
> 
> ...


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 26, 2005)

His praise only means praise directed to him Gabe. 
You are reading with rose colored glasses.
Or our maginfying Him in gratefuleness. 
Sorry I stopped short of what I meant.

Thanks be that there is an edit button.

[Edited on 7-27-2005 by puritancovenanter]


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 26, 2005)

It is HIS praise, not our praise. It is God-centered, not our-idea-of-who-God-is-centered.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Jul 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> We are to worship God through singing *HIS* praises, not ours.
> 
> 
> ...



Now you are on to something.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> It is HIS praise, not our praise. It is God-centered, not our-idea-of-who-God-is-centered.



I am not praising you. I would only be grateful to God and magnify him during church. 

If you were used to save my physical life I would sing your praise though. But I would do it under the guise of Providence.


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## toddpedlar (Jul 26, 2005)

Gabriel -

It is indeed God's praise. 

However, I believe you're eisegeting just a little bit here. What those verses are talking about is NOT "his psalms" in every case as you are inferring from them... but "the praise of God"... that is, as Martin said, those verses dictate the OBJECT of praise. They do NOT dictate the MEANS - they're not even TALKING about means...


Todd


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by webmaster_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> ...





> > Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
> > It is HIS praise, not our praise. It is God-centered, not our-idea-of-who-God-is-centered.
> 
> 
> ...





Matt, I also will refer you to the my last post. I think you are misreading or putting the incorrect implication upon His praise.

[Edited on 7-27-2005 by puritancovenanter]


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## toddpedlar (Jul 26, 2005)

it would seem a bit odd to me, by the way, that those psalms would be self referential...

(kind of like the song "This song is just six words long" - name the artist, anyone weird enough to admit knowing it!)


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Jul 26, 2005)

> Matt, I also will refer you to the my last post. I think you are misreading or putting the incorrect implication upon His praise.



I did. As with Todd's comment as well. You have to deal with the hermeneutical shift that occurs with how (anywhere in the bible) prayers, songs, etc., written by men become GOD'S word to us, and how that applies to the duty of praise and the dcotrien of God, as well as the doctrine of good works. (Wow, bigger subject than just EP eh?)




> it would seem a *bit odd to me*, by the way, that those psalms would be self referential...



EXACTLY one of the points to discuss!

Okay, I bow out for now, you guys have at it. Discuss that hermeneutical shift and its relevance and like stuff. 

[Edited on 7-27-2005 by webmaster]


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 26, 2005)

> _Original post by PastorWay_he is looking for the inspired injunction to sing only inspired songs only recorded in the Book of Psalms.........
> 
> Phillip



I think you were correct Phil.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by webmaster_
> 
> 
> > Matt, I also will refer you to the my last post. I think you are misreading or putting the incorrect implication upon His praise.
> ...



Well maybe I am wrong about my last post because the Psalms tend to make me pray and see God in my own station in life. I don't pray the psalms exactly but I pray like them. They help me see God's providence in times of trouble. They help me keep my head when life is good. They make me feed upon His Goodness. But so do other scriptures. I have become a living epistle as Paul would say. A living testimony of Christ saving a wretch like me.*I guess I could say that the Psalms and God's word has made my life a Living Epistle. *
I bet that is not what you are looking for, is it Matt?

[Edited on 7-27-2005 by puritancovenanter]


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 26, 2005)

Matt I know you want to bow out but would the definition of Grace be helpful here.

As Paul said, 1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 


Grace... esp. the divine influence upon the heart and it's reflection in the life. stongs 5485

[Edited on 7-27-2005 by puritancovenanter]


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## Contra_Mundum (Jul 26, 2005)

In a real way, due to inspiration, God is praising himself in the Psalter... and in Moses, and Isaiah, and Revelation, and anyplace else in the Bible... sorry, its not clicking for me yet.


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## Peter (Jul 26, 2005)

OK. God gives us what we give back to him. Sounds like another way to state the RPW. I agree Matt. But what bearing does this have on the EP debate? God has given us the Psalms of the Bible but not the hymns of men? how did this new perspective change your mind?


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 26, 2005)

I have no problem with God praising God. He is the ultimate Holy One. Who else could be praised. He alone is good and He loves perfect goodness. He desires for us to love Perfect goodness and Holiness also. Those are things we do not naturally love.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 26, 2005)

How about this as the root of praise.

(Heb 2:10) For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering.

(Heb 2:11) For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one origin. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers,

(Heb 2:12) saying, "I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise."

Sounds like God the Son Praising God the Father.

[Edited on 7-27-2005 by puritancovenanter]


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## kceaster (Jul 26, 2005)

God has not given us the hymns of men? Who inspired men to write? (lowercase i) Anyplace that the truth of God is, God is there. If God is in the prayer of a child, God is certainly in uninspired hymns. The question is, why does the Spirit speak the truth through our words in prayer, and in preaching, but not in lyrical poems set to music? We should all affirm that the Spirit always speaks the truth. All truth (ultimate truth), then, is that in which the Spirit of God speaks or witnesses to. Since God always praises Himself, and since He really is the only one who can properly praise Himself, then our praise must come through the Holy Spirit and the Word of God, in order to be of praise to God. Anything less is not of praise to God.

So, why would God not be pleased with His own Word? Why then must not the whole counsel of God be of praise to God? Why then if we utter His Words, is He not praised? Why then when we paraphrase His Words is He not praised? Why then if we sing these Words to each other is He not praised?

If I praise God in anything I do, it didn't come from me. It came from the Spirit who indwells me. I can certainly through my own will try to praise God in my own way, but as the RPW rightly states, we are not to praise God as we will, but as He wills. Therefore, whatever we do to praise God is only praise if it originates with Him and is in keeping with the rule of faith that He has established.

Now if He is in the praise of the singing of psalms, and He is, why would He not be in the praise of the singing of other parts of Scripture? In other words,, how is the Spirit NOT in the singing of other parts of Scripture if it is the Truth of God? How is God not pleased with His truth in song?

In Christ,

KC


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## fredtgreco (Jul 26, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Peter_
> OK. God gives us what we give back to him. Sounds like another way to state the RPW. I agree Matt. But what bearing does this have on the EP debate? God has given us the Psalms of the Bible but not the hymns of men? how did this new perspective change your mind?



I'm with Peter here. This is a tangent, not substantive.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 26, 2005)

The book of Psalms is literally the Book of Praises. It is a collection of God's Praises to be sung. They are all authored for the purpose and intent of being sung. Not all of Scripture is arranged in such a way (poetic, etc.). It seems pretty clear that they are set apart for a specific purpose, and Paul's commands and the apostle's examples of singing them make it most clear (not to mention the overwhelming evidence of the first 6-7 centuries of the church, including several Church councils making the singing of anything else anathema...).


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## fredtgreco (Jul 27, 2005)

Calvin on Col. 3:16



> Farther, under these three terms he includes all kinds of songs. They are commonly distinguished in this way -- that a psalm is that, in the singing of which some musical instrument besides the tongue is made use of: a hymn is properly a song of praise, whether it be sung simply with the voice or otherwise; while an ode contains not merely praises, but exhortations and other matters. He would have the songs of Christians, however, to be spiritual, not made up of frivolities and worthless trifles. For this has a connection with his argument.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 27, 2005)

We already had this discussion but it stopped. It moved on to other things.



> _Originally posted by puritancovenanter_
> In a more defined statement the word Psalm implies an instrument.
> 
> 
> > a psalm is that, in the singing of which some musical instrument besides the tongue is made use of: John Calvin






> _Originally posted by puritancovenanter_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> ...



I didn't get a response to the last statement.

Gabe also quoted this.(Calvin, Commentary on Psalm 33, see also commentary on 1 Samuel 18:1-9) 



> "Musical Instruments in celebrating the praises of God would be no more suitable than
> the burning of incense, the lighting of lamps, and the restoration of the other shadows of the law. The
> Papists therefore, have foolishly borrowed, this, as well as many other things, from the Jews. Men who
> are fond of outward pomp may delight in that noise; but the simplicity which God recommends to us by
> the apostles is far more pleasing to him."




I personally wonder about the inconsistencies in Calvin. 


[Edited on 7-27-2005 by puritancovenanter]


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## Robin (Jul 27, 2005)

Hebrews 13:9---15

Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited those devoted to them. We have an altar from which those who serve the tent have no right to eat. For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy places by the high priest as a sacrifice for sin are burned outside the camp. So Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the people through his own blood. Therefore let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach he endured. For here we have no lasting city, but we seek the city that is to come. Through him *then* let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that *is* the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name 


Context of the Text is so important...

May I humbly point-out, also, that the Gospel empowers us to actually already BE pleasing in God's sight no matter how inept, sinful or silly our methods of praise are...as long as they are not "WORKS" to gain some sort of merit.

Benediction v. 20--21
Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant, equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in us that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

 Reading the whole chapter of Hebrews 13 in context......

Robin


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## BrianBowman (Jul 27, 2005)

> The book of Psalms is literally the Book of Praises. It is a collection of God's Praises to be sung. They are all authored for the purpose and intent of being sung. Not all of Scripture is arranged in such a way (poetic, etc.). It seems pretty clear that they are set apart for a specific purpose, and Paul's commands and the apostle's examples of singing them make it most clear *(not to mention the overwhelming evidence of the first 6-7 centuries of the church, including several Church councils making the singing of anything else anathema...).*



Gabe, I would be careful about making selective appeals to the authority of the Church in her early centuries to support your position. Do you always agree with the Chruch Fathers and early councils on every matter of doctrine? Can it be clearly demonstrated that they possessed some kind of superior or more accurate knowledge of what God intended in the Scriptures?

Also, without minimizing the importance of what it means to give God *His praise, His way* we really need to ask this question: Is this issue more important than confronting our culture with the saving Gospel of Jesus Christ? Can we truly say we are giving God praise if the clear madate of Jesus Christ and the extraordinarily clear mission of the Apostles is not our mandate and mission?

[Edited on 7-27-2005 by BrianBowman]


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 27, 2005)

> Is this issue more important than confronting our culture with the saving Gospel of Jesus Christ? Can we truly say we are giving God praise if the clear madate of Jesus Christ and the extraordinarily clear mission of the Apostles is not our mandate and mission?



I'm sorry but that's a red herring. We are discussing worship here, not missions and evangelism. Just because I have passionate views about worship doesn't mean I'm not passionate about other things as well, such as missions. Every Biblical issue is important.

I'm not saying that the Early Church Fathers are infallible, I'm just saying that the early church didn't seem to have ANY trouble understanding the place and format of worship in light of Christ's death and resurrection ... they sang the psalms _a cappella_ for centuries, while the heretics wrote hymns to spread their false doctrines (Cf. Augustine's writings on this topic; He discusses this very thing) and corrupt Popery introduced intruments to worship (along with other shadows of the law, as Calvin and others will rightly point out). To become a bishop in the early church, you had to memorize the entire Psalter in order to be ordained. We go along with Athanasius about the Trinity, but why not his view on the Psalms? I'm just saying, there is a lot of data from this point in church history pointing to a unanimous view among the orthodox on the nature of worship (content and format) that we could study and learn from.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Jul 27, 2005)

This may be of help to further some ideas along on the topic here:

http://www.apuritansmind.com/PuritanWorship/CatechismOnPraise.htm
Catechism on Praise, by Rev. A Blaikie

[Edited on 7-28-2005 by webmaster]


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jul 27, 2005)

> _Originally posted by webmaster_
> This may be of help to further some ideas along on the topic here:
> 
> http://www.apuritansmind.com/PuritanWorship/CatechismOnPraise.htm
> ...


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## toddpedlar (Jul 27, 2005)

I think we got the point, Andrew  3 x 5 is 15 thumbs up!


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jul 27, 2005)

> _Originally posted by toddpedlar_
> I think we got the point, Andrew  3 x 5 is 15 thumbs up!



Ooops, sorry! <sheepish grin> Having trouble with dial-up tonight...


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 29, 2005)

When we worship God, we are transported to the heavenlies, and worship alongside the angels before the very throne of God Almighty. To give God worship that is anything less that what is befitting of His glory and majesty is not pure worship. What do we have that is good, pure, and righteous, that God has not already given to us? Nothing, of course. God has given us His Word, and along with that Word, He has given us a Book of Praise. We are to sing to the Lord His praises when we worship Him, for the focus should be on God and His glory and majesty in worship, not our attempts at describing, inadequately, who exactly God is. The wisdom of man is foolishness to God. Our best attempts at righteousness are filthy menstrual rags to God. The only way to give God proper praise and honor due to His name is to praise Him with His praises, authored by His Spirit, contained in His Book of Praise, the 150 Psalms of the Old Testament - a portion of Scripture divinely written and divinely gathered and set apart as a book of songs to be sung by God's people.

Now, to all the objectors who will cry "So then we can't say anything but God's Word in preaching, right?" I reply, "Absolutely not! For in preaching, the end is to, through a God-ordained teacher, bring God's Word to His people and explain it in a way that they will be edified by it. The preacher does not preach to God. In singing, we have a two-fold end in mind; that is, both the edification of the people of God from God's Word being sung, and also the proper and pure worship before the throne of the Lord God Almighty. They are similar, but still different enough so that we must distinguish between the two in practice."


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## pastorway (Jul 29, 2005)

Preaching and Singing are both elements of worship. Both are done to exalt God and edify men at the same time. They are not as different as you make them out to be.

In fact, we are told that we are to sing to one another in order to admonish one another. 

So if both are directed to God and each other, then why the double standard?

Phillip


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 29, 2005)

> _Originally posted by pastorway_
> Preaching and Singing are both elements of worship. Both are done to exalt God and edify men at the same time. They are not as different as you make them out to be.
> 
> In fact, we are told that we are to sing to one another in order to admonish one another.
> ...



There is no double standard, Phillip.

When men preach, they are acting as God's servants, thus glorifying Him in their faithful obedience. They are also, at the same time, instructing and edifying God's people.

When we worship, we are transported to the throne of God and communing with Him, exalting His works, wonders, and majesty, singing His praises. We are also edifying one another, as we instruct each other through the Word of Christ.

When we worship, we are worshipping God as His people.

When a minister of the gospel preaches, he is preaching to God's people.

He is not teaching God anything. The interaction between a preacher and God in the act of preaching is defined as the preacher acting out of loving obedience and glorifying Him through that obedience, not presuming to teach God anything about Himself.

To sing God's praises with our own words is to presume to know God outside of His revealed Word, and it is to presume that we can please Him with our attempts at self-created worship. It is to presume to tell God something about Himself, but from an uninspired, fallen viewpoint and perspective.

[Edited on 7-29-2005 by WrittenFromUtopia]


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## pastorway (Jul 29, 2005)

Simply put, you do not understand preaching as an element of worship - to preach the Word involves proclaiming the glory of God, and is in and of itself worship.

Both preaching and singing are done to God and for men. 

If anything is an element of worship there will be an emphasis on God and an application for the Body.

Phillip


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 29, 2005)

I disagree with you, in your evaluation of what I said.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 29, 2005)

"What St. Augustine said is true, that *one can sing nothing worthy of God save what one has received from Him*. Wherefore though we look far and wide we will find no better songs nor songs more suitable to that purpose than the Psalms of David, which the Holy Spirit made and imparted to him. Thus, singing them we may be sure that our words come from God just as if He were to sing in us for His own exaltation."
- John Calvin in the preface to the Geneva Psalter

This is my whole point (the bold text), summed up.

When we preach, we aren't preaching TO God, we're preaching on God's behalf, as He has chosen us and gifted us to do. We are, in fact, glorifying God, exalting His name, and preaching His Word to His people, but we are not presuming to teach God anything or tell Him how He should've written His Word.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jul 29, 2005)

There is a helpful chapter entitled _The Idea of Worship_ by the Rev. W.H. McMillan in the book _The Psalms in Worship_ by John McNaughter which speaks to the concept and underlying principles involved in Christian worship. I encourage anyone studying the issue of worship at large or psalmody in particular to read and benefit from this chapter. The very first sentence of the chapter, a definition of worship, is, to me, very succinct and profound therefore I will quote it for consideration here:

"Worship is right conceptions of the character and works of God suitably expressed."

[Edited on 7-30-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 29, 2005)




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## fredtgreco (Jul 29, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> 
> When we preach, we aren't preaching TO God, we're preaching on God's behalf, as He has chosen us and gifted us to do. We are, in fact, glorifying God, exalting His name, and preaching His Word to His people, but we are not presuming to teach God anything or tell Him how He should've written His Word.



Then I guess when you pray, you pray to yourself.


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## Peter (Jul 29, 2005)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> There is a helpful chapter entitled _The Idea of Worship_ by the Rev. W.H. McMillan in the book _The Psalms in Christian Worship_ by John McNaughter which speaks to the concept and underlying principles involved in Christian worship. I encourage anyone studying the issue of worship at large or psalmody in particular to read and benefit from this chapter. The very first sentence of the chapter, a definition of worship, is, to me, very succinct and profound therefore I will quote it for consideration here:
> 
> "Worship is right conceptions of the character and works of God suitably expressed."



Those sound like grrrrrrrrrreat books! How might one aquire such great books andrew?


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Jul 29, 2005)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> ...



I'm not sure I fully understand what you mean.

"Prayer is nothing but the promise reversed, of God's Word formed into an argument, and retorted by faith upon God again." Willaim Gurnall

"Prayer is putting the promises to suit." John Trapp

"The promises are the gound of faith, and faith, when stregnthened, will make thee fervent, and such fervency ever speeds and returns with victory out of the field of prayer. The mightier any is in the Word, the more mighty he will be in prayer." William Gurnall

"One way to get comfort is to plead the promise of God in prayer, show Him His handwriting; God is tender of His Word." Thomas Manton

We pray God's Word back to Him in the form of an argument. I offer up nothing new to God except His Word in "filtered" form, or rather, it applied to various circumstances in mty own life. Does He listen to "my" prayers or "His" word _in my prayers_? Or in other words, do "I" move Him, or is He bound to His Word and promises in my prayers that I apply to various situations and "argue" with Him?

"Not my will but thine be done."

That is why the WLC and WSC speak about the promises:

Q180: What is it to pray in the name of Christ? 
A180: To pray in the name of Christ is, in obedience to his command, and *in confidence on his promises*, to ask mercy for his sake; not by bare mentioning of his name, but by drawing our encouragement to pray, and our boldness, strength, and hope of acceptance in prayer, from Christ and his mediation.[

Q98: What is prayer?
A98: Prayer is an offering up of our desires unto God *for things agreeable to his will,* in the name of Christ, with confession of our sins, and thankful acknowledgement of his mercies.

I think that prayer, then, is not to ourselves, but to remind ourselves in humble submission what God's will is based upon His word for us.

I do not think that prayer works in the same way as preaching, though it rests ont he same Word and promises. 

WLC #158, "The word of God is to be preached only by such as are sufficiently gifted, and also duly approved and called to that office." WLC #159, "applying themselves to the necessities and capacities of the _hearers_."

Preaching is done before God, but not to God. Prayer is done before God, to God, by the Word of God.

I think prayer in and of itself would be a great topic to cover. And it woudl be exceedingly edifying overall and for all of us.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jul 29, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Peter_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> ...



Peter, 

I misspoke as to the title. There is a book called _The Psalms in Christian Worship_ by Rowland Ward which is, in my opinion, excellent, and which can be obtained here. The book referenced above is called _The Psalms in Worship_. This book is an invaluable reference to any student of this subject. It can be acquired from Still Water Revival Books. The book itself was the result of a psalmody conference sponsored by the General Assembly of the United Presbyterian Church of North America held in Pittsburgh, PA in 1905. The book compiles essays by participants on numerous aspects of psalmody and was published in 1907. It was republished in 1992 by SWRB, which borrowed a copy from my then-PCA pastor, Bill Marshall, who was kind enough not only to loan the book for republication but also to write the introduction. 

I would also like to encourage anyone who is studying this issue to be sure to read Mike Bushell's _The Songs of Zion_, which is, I think, the definitive modern study of exclusive psalmody. Some other resources on this subject can be found here and here. Also recommended for those studying the issue are G.I. Williamson's _The Singing of Psalms in the Worship of God_ and Brian Schwertley's _A Brief Examination of Exclusive Psalmody_.

[Edited on 7-30-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 29, 2005)

No, Fred, I don't pray to myself. When, by God's grace, I engage in prayer, I pray that His will be done in my life. I don't presume to teach God in either prayer OR praise.


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## fredtgreco (Jul 30, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> No, Fred, I don't pray to myself. When, by God's grace, I engage in prayer, I pray that His will be done in my life. I don't presume to teach God in either prayer OR praise.



Then it would make sense by your logic that you only pray Scripture verbatim, or perhaps only the psalms that are prayers verbatim.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 30, 2005)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> ...



Good thing we aren't Anglican or we would be turning the discussion to the Book of Common Prayer.


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