# Millenial, Dispensational, anti-Covenant rubbish



## the Internet (May 25, 2010)

Hi Guys,
Could not find another thread so hope I haven't broken protocol. I would like some help in identifying solid books that explain the other side of the fence. Long story short ...

I have recently embarked on serious study of Covenant doctrines ... horton, waters, robertson, etc etc. These have confirmed and clarified the framework built many years ago ... all good.

Attending a Macarthurite Church now, and clearly they are leaky-dispensationalist. Just For what it's worth, the mainstay upon which their doctrines are built is constructed on the literal, historical, grammatical hermeneutic ... so there is not really any solid ground.

But, I must do justice and want to get my hands on a bunch of books that describe the other side of the fence.

Any advice would be welcome ... I do wish to get a big wall chart with those models if something like that is available as well.


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## Scott1 (May 25, 2010)

A good article about covenant theology:

What is Covenant Theology by Ligon Duncan


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## Covenant Joel (May 25, 2010)

If you're wanting something that directly interacts with dispensationalism, you can check out these:

Dispensationalism: Rightly Dividing the People of God? by Keith Mathison
Understanding Dispensationalists by Vern Poythress

If you are looking for something that simply explains covenant theology more, the more recent classic would be Christ and the Covenants by O. Palmer Robertson. You could also check out Berkhof's Systematic Theology on the question.


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## Joseph Scibbe (May 25, 2010)

I have Ryries "Dispensationalism" here in my apt. if you want it. I will send it to you. I can't really say much about it since I have not gotten very far in but I doubt I will anytime son. PM me your address and I will drop it in the mail.


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## jwithnell (May 25, 2010)

I've been exposed recently to the work of John Nelson Darby (1800s) who keeps the ethnic Jews and the church separate and sees an earthly fulfillment of the Old Testament promises to the Jews. Their salvation rests in the re-establishment of Jerusalem from which God will rule for 1000 years. This seemed different to me from the dispensationalism that I knew from growing up in the deep south where the emphasis always seemed to be that man messed up God's plans, so God had to try all over again to come up with a way that man could behave, believe, etc. to become right with God. The in-gathering of Jews at the end was to be the absolute final sign that the premillennial-return of Christ was eminent (foreshadowed by the re-establishment of the Jewish state in 1948).


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## Andres (May 25, 2010)

An EXCELLENT book is Anthony Hoekema's The Bible and the Future. It will ruin any dispensationalist. It deals more with eschatology though and not really in-depth on CT, however I still consider it a must read to understand a lot where dispensationalists err. If you don't mind reading online, it's free here.


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## DMcFadden (May 25, 2010)

If you want books from "the other side," I would suggest . . . 

Bateman, Herbert W. IV (ed.) (1999). _Three Central Issues in Contemporary Dispensationalism: A Comparison of Traditional & Progressive Views_. Kregel Academic & Professional. ISBN-10: 0825420628.

Blaising, Craig A.; Darrell L. Bock (1993). _Progressive Dispensationalism_. Wheaton, IL: BridgePoint. ISBN 156476138X.

Enns, Paul P. _Moody Handbook of Theology _(1989). Chicago, IL: Moody Press. ISBN-10: 0802434282 (Chapter 36 deals with the hermeneutics of dispensationalism).

Ryrie, Charles _Dispensationalism Today _(1999, the most recent edition that has the critique of Progressive Dispensationalism). ISBN-10: 080242256X 

Thomas, Robert L. (ed.) (2002) _Evangelical Hermeneutics: The New vs. the Old_. Kregal. ISBN-10: 082543839X.

Witherington III, Ben. (2005). _The Problem with Evangelical Theology: Testing the Exegetical Foundations of Calvinism, Dispensationalism, and Wesleyanism_. Baylor University Press ISBN-10: 1932792422. Witherington is an Arminian (Asbury) NT scholar of great renown (probably the closest thing to a D.A. Carson level scholar among the free willers). His book tries to show how "party" labels and popular brands of theology blind people to a simple reading of the Bible. In doing so, he points to the plusses and minuses of dispensationalism.


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## Cato (May 25, 2010)

David, What is a "Leaky" Dispensationalist?


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## the Internet (May 25, 2010)

Steve, LD is a cutdown more moderate view ... MacArthur is the first to use the phrase I think []Error with a little more at John MacArthur and Dispensationalism. He is interesting and provocative on this eg "You show me in that verse, in the Old Testament, which promises a kingdom to Israel, where it says that it really means the Church--show me!"... interestingly he will use the old 'Bible never mentions Trinity but we know its true' line to defend the existence of the doctrine.

I struggle with my Church for the same reasons as another dude in a different post ... they preach and teach a physical Israel, the literal reign, mid tribulation rapture, and complete disdain for the covenants [leads to all sorts of excesses in many other areas]. I am just finishing Horton and find him excellent - reaffirms my framework, but more importantly I think he is right that covenant become the lens through which to view providence from Eden to Revelation. Hence to need to get my head around this whacked up 69 weeks/trib-rapture-ulation/coming/millennium/coming Dispensational fairy tales. Apologies if any proponents in here ... I just find physical Israel all saved with animal sacrifices to be so much unbiblical rot.

Scott, I am looking for stuff on the 'other side' ... useful article though.

Joel Mathison and Poythress added to my list. I have Robertson and Berkhof thx.

Joseph, I will get a copy thanks ... the birds take a long time to come to my place, but thanks 

JWithnell, yes, I guess if I really want to go back to beginnings Darby will have to be in the list.

Andres, Hoekema sounds like a murderer, but I do love a good story ... 

Dennis, thx, will get all.

Anyone know of source of one of those big wall charts that lays out the daniel and rev with timelines and all the fancy stuff?


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## MLCOPE2 (May 25, 2010)

Unashamed 116 said:


> I have Ryries "Dispensationalism" here in my apt. if you want it. I will send it to you. I can't really say much about it since I have not gotten very far in but I doubt I will anytime son. PM me your address and I will drop it in the mail.


 
If your sending free books sign me up!


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## Andres (May 25, 2010)

Dave, if you want visual aids, here are some good ones from David Murray and this is a good chart.


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## Wannabee (May 25, 2010)

There's really a lot to consider in your challenge here. Dennis has offered some excellent sources to help you in your efforts. And, as you can see, I'm one of those graduates from that whacked out seminary.  Maybe I can offer some insight.

The grammatico historico hermeneutic is shaky ground? To say that's a loaded statement is the understatement of the year. It's quite possible that you don't really know what you just condemned. After reading Thomas' book you'll have some idea, but even then he doesn't have the last word in dispensational hermeneutics. Many dispensationalists disagree with his one meaning principle, which is tied with his NT interpretation of OT prophecy principles. But the foundational framework of the hermeneutic he presents will give you a better understanding of dispensational hermeneutics.

Be very careful in how you go about this. One of the greatest mistakes made from a covenantal perspective is painting dispensationalism with a broad brush. For instance, as much as this might come as a shock, I've never used charts in my teaching. I don't like them and find them confusing. And, at TMS I don't recall any of those funny dispensational charts. In fact, during my whole time at Grace Community Church and a few other Dispensational churches over the past... bunch of years, I don't think I've ever been exposed to them at church, though I might have forgotten. I've seen them in a couple of books on end times that I read, but that's about it.

So far my only references to eschatology in my teaching are pretty much in regard to the promise that Christ will return. I'm premil, but have never really taught on the tribulation period because I find it tenuous, though possible. And I'm not alone. I"m sure you would call our church MacCarthurite as well.

Not all dispensationalists see two plans of salvation. Not all see great divisions in the differing dispensations. Not all see the same number of dispensations. And a whole lot of them have a perspective on the dispensations that has more similarities with covenants than most on either side care to consider. I mean, we'd hate to admit we might be more like "those guys" than we have to.

You'll find that dispensationalism is actually sort of hard to nail down. It has more variants, I think, than covenantalism. And the recent shift toward progressive dispensationalism, which MacArthur is more akin to, has really toned down the things about dispensationalism that you are so bothered by. The 3 views book Dennis advised will help you see this more clearly.

Do not bother with Scoffield or Darby. First, they're not related in how they go about their perspective. Second, while there are many Dispensational churches out there that still stand on the teaching of these men, especially Scoffield if I read things correctly, what is taught in churches like the one you attend is really a different animal than what these men proposed. Even the difference between Ryrie and MacArthur is quite vast. Also, before you read Ryrie's book I would recommend you read his appeal toward the back (p. 209 in my copy). It will help you see the heart of the man before you read what he says, which may give you a more charitable attitude towards your disagreements as you read through it. I would recommend you read it though, understanding that he does not have the last word for every dispensationalist, leaky or not. The Scoffied proponents won't agree with him on many details, and neither will the MacArthurites.

Having said all that, it seems that in my interaction here that we can't seem to label me. Perhaps I'm an almost dispensationalist with covenantal leanings. I seem to be somewhere that defies definition, even though, from where I sit at least, my theology appears systematic, consistent and synchronous. We all generally think ours does though.

One more book I would strongly recommend is _CONTEXT! Evangelical Views on the Millennium Examined_ by Gary D. Long. He does a very fine job of presenting the facts on the main views prevalent today. It's not a short read, but would be well worth your time and effort. May the Lord reward your efforts with greater understanding; but more importantly, with greater godliness.

Blessings,


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## the Internet (May 26, 2010)

@ Joe ... nice read and thank you. I guess the Internet [pun intended] doesn't convey the desired level of tongue in cheek. Please believe me that the latter was intended ... I have known many godly men throughout my life that leave me in sack-cloth and ashes when it comes to godliness ... and they hold passionately to various forms of Dispensational theology ... some in the Church I now attend ... so my intent wasn't an attack, but rather a bit of unnecessary sarcasm to highlight the stark differences.

I confess ignorance of the Dispensational model, and hence this post is all about learning and picking up on those deficiencies. Though I have held to mildly-educated covenantal doctrines for most of my Christian life, these are grounded in 'adopting' Berkhof and Calvin because those doctrines are present. I am finally 'getting edicated' on the matter 

That said i appreciate the advice ... hmmm ... <delete>Darby</delete>

Andres thanks for charts


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## Wannabee (May 26, 2010)

One of the many frustrations in our interaction here is that tone does not convey. This can, and often does, lead to a host of misunderstandings.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.


From one of two kinds of people,


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## Bern (May 26, 2010)

I would say many churches don't know what category they fall into. There seems to be a great number (in the UK anyway) who are influenced by dispensational thought, but do not believe in a lot of the things that the reformed have such an aversion to. For example, most churches in the UK do not teach the construction of the third literal temple and animal sacrifices, a separate way of salvation for Jews or a secret rapture. 

However the majority of churches in the uK do seem to be Arminian and in my opinion don't really know what they believe regarding eschatology. Its common to have wide variation within a congregation regarding beliefs about the end times.


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## CharlieJ (May 27, 2010)

Dave, there are a lot of resources. I've read a lot of them, and I think by focusing on a few leading lights you will gain a lot more insight than reading a bunch of lesser books. Two books should take priority:

1. Dispensationalism by Charles Ryrie; as fractured as Dispensationalism is, this is the closest thing to a classic that is still relevant. Every student of theology should be familiar with this book.

2. Progressive Dispensationalism by Craig Blaising and Darrell Bock; many Dispensationalists are fast embracing PD, so you need to know it. 

Those are the two major works. Once you've read those, you can read more focused works depending on your interest. If you're interested primarily in hermeneutics, read the Robert Thomas book mentioned above. If you want more comparisons of classical and progressive, get the Three Central Issues volume mentioned above. If you want specific defenses of Dispensational Pre-millennialism, get John Walvoord's _The Rapture Question_ or _The Millennial Kingdom_, or for a really dense read, Dwight Pentecost's _Things To Come_ (a bit dated at points, though).


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## the Internet (May 27, 2010)

CharlieJ said:


> or for a really dense read, Dwight Pentecost's _Things To Come_ (a bit dated at points, though).



Had me laughing all the way to the dinner table


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