# The online Christian community driving me MAD!



## ReformedWretch (Jun 16, 2004)

Ugh!

I post at several Christian sites and let me tell you it has recently been dring me crazy!

I was banned at &quot;Rapture Ready&quot; for telling others that they needed to follow the commandments of Christ if they truely loved Him. That talking about how awesome &quot;Kill Bill&quot; was and saying you would gladly take Jesus with you to see it because He has &quot;seen worse&quot; is not a very good attitude to have.

Now at freshhope I am getting a hard time from many and being told I don't know the bible because I am taking a stand against female pastors and the movie &quot;Saved&quot;.

At The Sanctuary&quot; I am looked at as a Pharisee because I think Christians shouldn't perform Christian rock music on the local bar scene, attend graphic R rated movies, and consider an internet mesage board their Church home!:no:

[b:9c847be3a6]What is going on?![/b:9c847be3a6]

 Is their a great falling away going on now? I seem to be encountering two kinds of people.

1) People who think Christian liberty is a liscense to live any way they please and still claim salvation.

2) People who truely desire a life of holiness and want to focus on Christ, His word, and the body as the pursue just that.

There doesn't seem to be anyone in between these ways of thought. I don't want to be angry at something God intends:flaming:


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## FrozenChosen (Jun 16, 2004)

I think it's in the nature of the modern Reformed (eek did I just say modern Reformed? Yes I did! Keep reading!) man to get frustrated every once in a while about these things.

However, the comfort is that no matter what happens, [i:c98831cde2][b:c98831cde2]God is still in control![/b:c98831cde2][/i:c98831cde2] We'll never fully know exactly what God's up to, but we can be assured that it is good!

I just read the story of Phinehas in Numbers. He was a priest who ran a javelin through an Israelite and the Moabite he had been immoral/idolatrous with, and God counted it as righteousness and blessed his entire bloodline from that point. Why? Because the priest was zealous for the holiness of God.

I'm not saying &quot;grab your spear, we're having Arminian shish-ka-bob!&quot; I'm simply saying that there can be proper action against people in the church. Our spears are our Bibles. Let's run 'em deep.

[Edited on 6-17-2004 by FrozenChosen]


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## king of fools (Jun 16, 2004)

keep strong brother and keep speaking the truth. Remember that Jesus told us there would be false believers. It wasn't an idle comment. It's truth. Moreover, Jesus said you would be persecuted for his sake. Take your licks and bless those who persecute you.


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## ReformedWretch (Jun 16, 2004)

I actually have a guy now trying to convince me how Spurgeon was wrong in an example I gave him of something he said in regard to worldly Christians!:no:


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## Craig (Jun 16, 2004)

I gave up on debating theology or anything for that matter online...I don't think most sites prepare the participants quite like this one. 

Don't get me wrong, I think you can learn some good stuff and learn from other people's mistaken notions....but rarely are they corrected online. It's a free for all where anonymity makes everyone an expert  ....yes, and I see the irony of saying such on this discussion forum


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## RamistThomist (Jun 16, 2004)

[quote:f098be317d][i:f098be317d]Originally posted by houseparent[/i:f098be317d]
Ugh!

I was banned at &quot;Rapture Ready&quot; for telling others that they needed to follow the commandments of Christ if they truely loved Him. That talking about how awesome &quot;Kill Bill&quot; was and saying you would gladly take Jesus with you to see it because He has &quot;seen worse&quot; is not a very good attitude to have.

Now at freshhope I am getting a hard time from many and being told I don't know the bible because I am taking a stand against female pastors and the movie &quot;Saved&quot;.

At The Sanctuary&quot; I am looked at as a Pharisee because I think Christians shouldn't perform Christian rock music on the local bar scene, attend graphic R rated movies, and consider an internet mesage board their Church home!:no:
[/quote:f098be317d]

Banned from &quot;Rapture Ready&quot;? Consider it a badge of honor:thumbup:

I say the same things with other &quot;worldly&quot; Christians but I do not merit the intenstity of responses  that you do.
Well Done


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## ReformedWretch (Jun 16, 2004)

Here's the thing.

These are FAR from very deep theologically speaking. Most seem like simple conversations that should be fairly easy to agree to. I have this same problem in my &quot;real&quot; life too.

Let me give you some examples.

Friend: &quot;Hey Adam, wanna go see The Punisher?&quot; (I am a fan of the comic FYI)

Me: Nah, there is some female nudity in it and I doubt it's something Christ would want me to be going to.

Friend: Come on Adam, unless it causes you to stumble you are free to see it!

Me: I understand your thinking, but I would rather concentrate on pure things as Philippians 4:8 tells us.

Friend: Oh, ummm, ok, whatever. (Walks away mumbling about how weird I am, or worse how I think I am better than other Christians or &quot;super spiritual&quot

I get that allot...and guys I do mean ALOT! When I honestly seek to live in a way that I believe pleases God I get put down. By OTHER CHRISTIANS! I honestly do not run around condemning anyone. I simply state why I am not interested in something and the grumbling starts. It just seems to me that almost every professing Christian I know has little to no desire to grow in the faith. They are too concerned with entertainment. 

Don't get me wrong. I watch some TV. Shows like Smallville, Alias (although the 2 main characters unmarried relationship is pushing the boundaries for me currently), and Law and Order SVU. I love Penn State football. I enjoy the NFL season. But more than anything I wish to grow in the knowledge of God's word and as such in His grace. Everyone I know thinks I am either loony, or &quot;works based&quot;.

When my boss comes to visit me at work, I want to talk about the word! When my friends come and visit I want to get the bible out and talk. When I go to a Christian board I want to discuss ways to walk closer to the Lord!

I am so thankful that I found this place. You all honestly have no idea how refreshing it has been to me. I am just RECENTLY dealing with dispensational beliefs I have held all my life! And you know what has be considering abandoning all of them? You alls ZEAL for the Lord and His word! IT just &quot;seems&quot; to me that Arminianism and dispensational believers have little to no zeal for personal holiness. I am sorry if that is a stereotype of some sort but it SEEMS (to me) to be true.


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## ReformedWretch (Jun 16, 2004)

BTW!

Anyone who visits any other forums that are SOUND, could you U2 me or e-mail the addresses at [email protected]?

I love this place and all but I like to visit a lot of boards! I am about ready to leave the ones I just talked about.


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## RamistThomist (Jun 17, 2004)

Adam,
I sent you a U2U and I signed the guestbook at your website.


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## ReformedWretch (Jun 17, 2004)

THANKS!!!


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## Bladestunner316 (Jun 17, 2004)

I was just banned from time bombers and I dont even know why?

blade


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## a (Jun 17, 2004)

[quote:0977d570cf][i:0977d570cf]Originally posted by houseparent[/i:0977d570cf]
BTW!

Anyone who visits any other forums that are SOUND, could you U2 me or e-mail the addresses at [email protected]?

I love this place and all but I like to visit a lot of boards! I am about ready to leave the ones I just talked about. [/quote:0977d570cf]



I have a hard enough time trying to keep up with this posts on this board... I couldn't imagine trying to throw another one in the works!!

you are truly amazing.... in an earthly, sinful, fallen man sort of way... hehehe


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## ReformedWretch (Jun 17, 2004)

I just need another SOUND board to go to! Now at the &quot;Sanctuary&quot; I am being confronted as if I practice the Colossian heresy because I am speaking of Holy living!


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## a (Jun 17, 2004)

go back and tell them to baptize their babies!


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## ReformedWretch (Jun 17, 2004)

Oh man!


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## turmeric (Jun 17, 2004)

Ask them if they believe you can be a &quot;carnal Christian&quot; and if they say yes, ask them who they got that teaching from and if they mention Watchman Nee or Jessie Penn-Lewis or Lewis Sperry Chafer - you've got 'em dead to rights on the Colossian heresy! I don't think you're talking &quot;higher-life&quot; spirituality, which is a kind of perfectionism - I think you're just choosing what media to watch and wanting to know more of Christ - but a lot of that stuff has gone around and the evangelifish have ingested a good deal of it, hence the myth of the &quot;carnal&quot; Christian vs. the &quot;spiritual&quot; Christian.

I've also found that a lot of recovering evangelifish in the Reformed tradition seem to need to go to bad movies and consume a lot more alcohol and nicotine than is good for anyone just to prove that they have liberty. Hopefully, the worst they'll get from it is a hangover.

[Edited on 6-17-2004 by turmeric]


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## ReformedWretch (Jun 17, 2004)

[quote:8df650ae61]I've also found that a lot of recovering evangelifish in the Reformed tradition seem to need to go to bad movies and consume a lot more alcohol and nicotine than is good for anyone [b:8df650ae61]just to prove that they have liberty.[/b:8df650ae61] Hopefully, the worst they'll get from it is a hangover. [/quote:8df650ae61]

[b:8df650ae61]YES!!![/b:8df650ae61]

THis has been my experience to a tee!


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## ReformedWretch (Jun 17, 2004)

Oh, and if I ask about &quot;carnal&quot; Christians they are going to pull out that passage where Paul calls some &quot;carnal&quot; and use that to defend that idea.

1 Corinthians 3

1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able;

I KNOW this isn't confirming carnal Christians, but they will inisist it is.:no:


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## cupotea (Jun 17, 2004)

[quote:8f2fa92df9][i:8f2fa92df9]Originally posted by houseparent[/i:8f2fa92df9]
[quote:8f2fa92df9]I've also found that a lot of recovering evangelifish in the Reformed tradition seem to need to go to bad movies and consume a lot more alcohol and nicotine than is good for anyone [b:8f2fa92df9]just to prove that they have liberty.[/b:8f2fa92df9] Hopefully, the worst they'll get from it is a hangover. [/quote:8f2fa92df9]

[b:8f2fa92df9]YES!!![/b:8f2fa92df9]

THis has been my experience to a tee! [/quote:8f2fa92df9]

What is even more disheartening is being branded a legalist from the so-called &quot;Christian liberty&quot; advocates, when I tell them that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit and that we should maintain it spiritually as well as physically, by abstaining from smoking which destroys the lungs and drinking which destroys the liver. 

Let's see how many disagreements from even members on this board will come from that statement.

Christian liberty doesn't give you a license to do whatever you want with your body, because you are not your own any more, you are bought with a price, the precious blood of Jesus Christ. Therefore we are to glorify Him in our mortal bodies.

[Edited on 6-17-2004 by CajunBibleBeliever]


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## ReformedWretch (Jun 17, 2004)

[quote:979347d17d][i:979347d17d]Originally posted by CajunBibleBeliever[/i:979347d17d]
[quote:979347d17d][i:979347d17d]Originally posted by houseparent[/i:979347d17d]
[quote:979347d17d]I've also found that a lot of recovering evangelifish in the Reformed tradition seem to need to go to bad movies and consume a lot more alcohol and nicotine than is good for anyone [b:979347d17d]just to prove that they have liberty.[/b:979347d17d] Hopefully, the worst they'll get from it is a hangover. [/quote:979347d17d]

[b:979347d17d]YES!!![/b:979347d17d]

THis has been my experience to a tee! [/quote:979347d17d]

What is even more disheartening is being branded a legalist from the so-called &quot;Christian liberty&quot; advocates, when I tell them that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit and that we should maintain it spiritually as well as physically, by abstaining from smoking which destroys the lungs and drinking which destroys the liver. 

Let's see how many disagreements from even members on this board will come from that statement.

Christian liberty doesn't give you a license to do whatever you want with your body, because you are not your own any more, you are bought with a price, the precious blood of Jesus Christ. Therefore we are to glorify Him in our mortal bodies.

[Edited on 6-17-2004 by CajunBibleBeliever] [/quote:979347d17d]

[b:979347d17d]AMEN![/b:979347d17d]


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## raderag (Jun 17, 2004)

[quote:a78c836f46][i:a78c836f46]Originally posted by CajunBibleBeliever[/i:a78c836f46]
by abstaining from smoking which destroys the lungs and [b:a78c836f46]drinking which destroys the liver. [/b:a78c836f46]

[Edited on 6-17-2004 by CajunBibleBeliever] [/quote:a78c836f46]

Are you contending that our Savior was less than perfect in drinking wine?


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## ReformedWretch (Jun 17, 2004)

Here we go...


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## cupotea (Jun 17, 2004)

[quote:0ced77bc98][i:0ced77bc98]Originally posted by houseparent[/i:0ced77bc98]
Here we go... [/quote:0ced77bc98]

Adam,

I told you so. 

I am sure Jesus was well acquainted with the Book of Proverbs.

(Prov. 20:1)
"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."

(Prov. 23:31-33)
"[31] Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. [32] At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. [33] Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things."

Anyway the subject of alcohol has been exhaustively discussed a couple of weeks ago on another thread. However the conclusions seems to have been based on human reasoning and not on the authority of scripture.

Alcohol is a mind altering drug, no matter how you put it. That is why it is addictive and very difficult to quit the habit without the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus would not have contaminated his brain with such drugs and it is grevious to claim that he could have.

[Edited on 6-17-2004 by CajunBibleBeliever]


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## ReformedWretch (Jun 17, 2004)

Oh come on Brent!

Surely you could see Jesus coming over to your house for the Super bowl and cracking open a Bud as he kicked back to watch right?


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## Me Died Blue (Jun 17, 2004)

Brent, what shall we then say of Numbers 28:7 and Proverbs 31:6? And don't come to me trying to use all the verses in the OT that instruct specific people not to drink of wine or strong drink, because they are specific to their situations, and are not meant to be taken as universal commands--the same way the command for Israel not to eat pork, or John the Baptist to eat only lucusts and honey.

You say, &quot;Jesus would not have contaminated his brain with such drugs and it is grevious to claim that he could have.&quot; I assume you're of the mindset that the &quot;fruit of the vine&quot; spoken of in the NT was non-alcoholic. That is simply historical ignorance on your part. They didn't even have a way to [i:e1c4c7ca3a]keep[/i:e1c4c7ca3a] grape juice unfermented for any significant amount of time!

Furthermore, if alcohol or tobacco in moderation are sinful because they pose health risks to your liver and lungs, then so are fast food and potato chips, since they clog your arteries and pose health risks to your heart. Is gluttony a sin? Yes - the same way drunkenness and addictive use of tobacco (and I would add cigarettes, since they have hundreds of harmful chemicals, and are specifically made to be addictive) are sinful. However, if moderate use of these things are sinful because of the potential health risks they pose, then we best all go back to the OT kosher diet as well.

Also, Brent, I simply posted this here so there would be an answer in the same thread to what you already posted about alcohol being sinful. If you want to keep discussing it beyond here, please either do so in the thread you mentioned, or start a thread of your own for discussing it as you see fit.

In Christ,


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## cupotea (Jun 17, 2004)

[quote:3a8451691f][i:3a8451691f]Originally posted by Me Died Blue[/i:3a8451691f]
You say, &quot;Jesus would not have contaminated his brain with such drugs and it is grevious to claim that he could have.&quot; I assume you're of the mindset that the &quot;fruit of the vine&quot; spoken of in the NT was non-alcoholic. That is simply historical ignorance on your part. They didn't even have a way to [i:3a8451691f]keep[/i:3a8451691f] grape juice unfermented for any significant amount of time!
[/quote:3a8451691f]

How much time are we talking about here, a few hours, days, weeks or what?

Isn't is possible that the fruit of the vine could have been prepared just a few hours before the supper and was still fresh?

Gluttony is a sin, however willfully and knowingly consuming any harmful chemicals into your body that destroys the body God gave you is sin.

Adam, is this the same kind of flak you are getting on these other sites?


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## Me Died Blue (Jun 17, 2004)

[quote:92498f5dcd][i:92498f5dcd]Originally posted by CajunBibleBeliever[/i:92498f5dcd]
How much time are we talking about here, a few hours, days, weeks or what?

Isn't is possible that the fruit of the vine could have been prepared just a few hours before the supper and was still fresh?[/quote:92498f5dcd]

Yes, that would have been [i:92498f5dcd]possible[/i:92498f5dcd], but that is not the point. It is historical that alcoholic wine was used during that era. All I can say is pick up a secular history book about it...

[quote:92498f5dcd][i:92498f5dcd]Originally posted by CajunBibleBeliever[/i:92498f5dcd]
Gluttony is a sin, however willfully and knowingly consuming any harmful chemicals into your body that destroys the body God gave you is sin.[/quote:92498f5dcd]

Then don't ever eat fast food or saturated fat again, since you are clogging your arteries and causing long-term damage to your heart. And you had better stay away from sugar, too, since consumption of it over your life can potentially lead to diabetes in your latter years.

[quote:92498f5dcd][i:92498f5dcd]Originally posted by CajunBibleBeliever[/i:92498f5dcd]
Adam, is this the same kind of flak you are getting on these other sites? [/quote:92498f5dcd]

I'm sorry if you consider any knid of debate &quot;flak.&quot; I simply don't agree with your position here, and since we're here to seek truth, we're going to challenge things we see as falsehood. Disagreement and challenging of views needn't be received as &quot;flak&quot; or as offensive in any way, because that is not what I or anyone else on thsi board mean it as.

This is my last post on the topic of alcohol in this thread. I'd be happy to discuss it with you via U2U, e-mail, or another thread.

[b:92498f5dcd]To get back to the thread topic,[/b:92498f5dcd] one Christian group I joined awhile back (I can't even remember the name anymore) was webmastered by a man named John Henry. He had an article on there that said, &quot;I disagree with Calvinism. Period!&quot; In his attempted refutation of each of the &quot;five points&quot; in that article, he said that he disagrees with the &quot;P&quot; in TULIP, because, and I quote, &quot;The Bible does not teach perseverance, it teaches preservation!&quot; I've never seen as grave and vile a misunderstanding and misrepresentation of Calvinism in my life! And when I posted a thread to discuss it, my thread never even got a single reply after a month! That's when I left.

In Christ,


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## RamistThomist (Jun 17, 2004)

[quote:c1d1f3dc04][i:c1d1f3dc04]Originally posted by CajunBibleBeliever[/i:c1d1f3dc04]
[
Adam, is this the same kind of flak you are getting on these other sites? [/quote:c1d1f3dc04]

It shouldn't be the same kind of flak. No one here is calling the other a legalist or ______ (fill in the blank). Me Died Blue probably shouldn't have accused you of historical ignorance. I probably would have said &quot;factually inaccurate.&quot; Anyway, I think the theological arguements at the Westminster Assembly were more heated than this. And I do not think this in theological hairsplitting. The biblical extent of Christian Liberty is an important subject to discuss.


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## Me Died Blue (Jun 17, 2004)

[quote:46d0221ab5][i:46d0221ab5]Originally posted by Finn McCool[/i:46d0221ab5]
Me Died Blue probably shouldn't have accused you of historical ignorance. I probably would have said &quot;factually inaccurate.&quot;[/quote:46d0221ab5]

Thanks for pointing that out, Jacob. Brent, I'm sorry if my using the term &quot;historical ignorance&quot; left the impression that I was accusing you of being historically ignorant [i:46d0221ab5]in general[/i:46d0221ab5]. That's not what I meant. I was simply saying that your specific claim about alcoholic wine in this case was one instance of historical ignorance...or factual inaccuracy. I mean the same thing by both terms, so sorry if my use of the former caused any misunderstanding.

In Christ,


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## raderag (Jun 17, 2004)

[quote:d17a292a4c][i:d17a292a4c]Originally posted by CajunBibleBeliever[/i:d17a292a4c]
[quote:d17a292a4c][i:d17a292a4c]Originally posted by houseparent[/i:d17a292a4c]
Here we go... [/quote:d17a292a4c]

Adam,

I told you so. 

I am sure Jesus was well acquainted with the Book of Proverbs.

(Prov. 20:1)
"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."

(Prov. 23:31-33)
"[31] Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. [32] At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. [33] Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things."

Anyway the subject of alcohol has been exhaustively discussed a couple of weeks ago on another thread. However the conclusions seems to have been based on human reasoning and not on the authority of scripture.

Alcohol is a mind altering drug, no matter how you put it. That is why it is addictive and very difficult to quit the habit without the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus would not have contaminated his brain with such drugs and it is grevious to claim that he could have.

[Edited on 6-17-2004 by CajunBibleBeliever] [/quote:d17a292a4c]

No offense, but no reasonable Bible Scholar contends that Jesus did not drink wine. The whole idea didn't even come about until the 18th century or so.

[quote:d17a292a4c]Luke 7:33For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, &quot;He has a demon.' 34The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, &quot;Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' 35But wisdom is justified by all her children.&quot; [/quote:d17a292a4c]

What do you think Jesus was drinking here to be called a drunkard? It wasn't diet coke.


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## cupotea (Jun 17, 2004)

[quote:1eaaa2de17][i:1eaaa2de17]Originally posted by raderag[/i:1eaaa2de17]
[quote:1eaaa2de17][i:1eaaa2de17]Originally posted by CajunBibleBeliever[/i:1eaaa2de17]
[quote:1eaaa2de17][i:1eaaa2de17]Originally posted by houseparent[/i:1eaaa2de17]
Here we go... [/quote:1eaaa2de17]

Adam,

I told you so. 

I am sure Jesus was well acquainted with the Book of Proverbs.

(Prov. 20:1)
"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."

(Prov. 23:31-33)
"[31] Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. [32] At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. [33] Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things."

Anyway the subject of alcohol has been exhaustively discussed a couple of weeks ago on another thread. However the conclusions seems to have been based on human reasoning and not on the authority of scripture.

Alcohol is a mind altering drug, no matter how you put it. That is why it is addictive and very difficult to quit the habit without the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus would not have contaminated his brain with such drugs and it is grevious to claim that he could have.

[Edited on 6-17-2004 by CajunBibleBeliever] [/quote:1eaaa2de17]

No offense, but no reasonable Bible Scholar contends that Jesus did not drink wine. The whole idea didn't even come about until the 18th century or so.

[quote:1eaaa2de17]Luke 7:33For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, &quot;He has a demon.' 34The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, &quot;Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' 35But wisdom is justified by all her children.&quot; [/quote:1eaaa2de17]

What do you think Jesus was drinking here to be called a drunkard? It wasn't diet coke. [/quote:1eaaa2de17]

Notice, who was he talking to and who was referring to him as a glutton and a winebibbler? The Pharisees. They also called him a false teacher. They took every opportunity to mock him and you take the word of the Pharisees that he was a drunkard.


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## staythecourse (Jun 17, 2004)

*And a SELF-PROCLAIMED drinker of alcohol.*

That's one of the most amazing things on the topic- Jesus didn't refute that he drank alcohol with sinners! What kind of miracle-working rabbi was he! Sheesh. Gets me mad just thinking about it.


Seriously, Jesus knew who He was at all times and alcohol didn't diminish His greatness. His &quot;Being&quot; left people unable to stand against him when he was doing right ---- which was all the time. He had to have alcoholic wine and be with sinners and talk with them and show them God's love toward them. I am firm in that.


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## cupotea (Jun 17, 2004)

[quote:7e2ab75677][i:7e2ab75677]Originally posted by staythecourse[/i:7e2ab75677]
That's one of the most amazing things on the topic- Jesus didn't refute that he drank alcohol with sinners! What kind of miracle-working rabbi was he! Sheesh. Gets me mad just thinking about it.


Seriously, Jesus knew who He was at all times and alcohol didn't diminish His greatness. His &quot;Being&quot; left people unable to stand against him when he was doing right ---- which was all the time. He had to have alcoholic wine and be with sinners and talk with them and show them God's love toward them. I am firm in that. [/quote:7e2ab75677]

He also hung met with a prostitute, does that make him a John?

Of course not!


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## staythecourse (Jun 17, 2004)

I am NOT an arguer of logic, Brent and fail quick at it but

A. Jesus drank alcohol with sinners
B. Jesus admitted it
C. The Pharisees used the fact that he did this freely to accuse him falsely that he was more than a drinker but a drunkard.
D. Jesus didn't sin with the sinners.

Frankly - I am very surprised Jesus drank alcohol because I would think that based on Proverbs he as a/THE king would stay away from it. But becuase he did drink alcoholic beverages I have a clearer understanding of the Proverbs verses brought up before. Pain and despair can be remedied with a non-abusive amount of alcohol. That is my understanding of it so far. 

I don't take this lightly either - I am on the road to be a pastor or teacher so I better get my ducks in a row ahead of time.

I will post on the other tread if need be but I'm lazy. Do you want to go to that thread Brent?


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## raderag (Jun 17, 2004)

[quote:44de5d0977][i:44de5d0977]Originally posted by CajunBibleBeliever[/i:44de5d0977]
[quote:44de5d0977][i:44de5d0977]Originally posted by raderag[/i:44de5d0977]
[quote:44de5d0977][i:44de5d0977]Originally posted by CajunBibleBeliever[/i:44de5d0977]
[quote:44de5d0977][i:44de5d0977]Originally posted by houseparent[/i:44de5d0977]
Here we go... [/quote:44de5d0977]

Adam,

I told you so. 

I am sure Jesus was well acquainted with the Book of Proverbs.

(Prov. 20:1)
"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."

(Prov. 23:31-33)
"[31] Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. [32] At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. [33] Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things."

Anyway the subject of alcohol has been exhaustively discussed a couple of weeks ago on another thread. However the conclusions seems to have been based on human reasoning and not on the authority of scripture.

Alcohol is a mind altering drug, no matter how you put it. That is why it is addictive and very difficult to quit the habit without the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus would not have contaminated his brain with such drugs and it is grevious to claim that he could have.

[Edited on 6-17-2004 by CajunBibleBeliever] [/quote:44de5d0977]

No offense, but no reasonable Bible Scholar contends that Jesus did not drink wine. The whole idea didn't even come about until the 18th century or so.

[quote:44de5d0977]Luke 7:33For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, &quot;He has a demon.' 34The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, &quot;Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' 35But wisdom is justified by all her children.&quot; [/quote:44de5d0977]

What do you think Jesus was drinking here to be called a drunkard? It wasn't diet coke. [/quote:44de5d0977]

Notice, who was he talking to and who was referring to him as a glutton and a winebibbler? The Pharisees. They also called him a false teacher. They took every opportunity to mock him and you take the word of the Pharisees that he was a drunkard. [/quote:44de5d0977]

Once again, your argument that Jesus didn't drink alchohol is a very new one(18th century). And your take on this verse is also not historically accepted.

[Edited on 6-17-2004 by raderag]


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## cupotea (Jun 17, 2004)

[quote:cd6aa55b46][i:cd6aa55b46]Originally posted by staythecourse[/i:cd6aa55b46]
I am NOT an arguer of logic, Brent and fail quick at it but

A. Jesus drank alcohol with sinners
B. Jesus admitted it
C. The Pharisees used the fact that he did this freely to accuse him falsely that he was more than a drinker but a drunkard.
D. Jesus didn't sin with the sinners.

Frankly - I am very surprised Jesus drank alcohol because I would think that based on Proverbs he as a/THE king would stay away from it. But becuase he did drink alcoholic beverages I have a clearer understanding of the Proverbs verses brought up before. Pain and despair can be remedied with a non-abusive amount of alcohol. That is my understanding of it so far. 

I don't take this lightly either - I am on the road to be a pastor or teacher so I better get my ducks in a row ahead of time.

I will post on the other tread if need be but I'm lazy. Do you want to go to that thread Brent? [/quote:cd6aa55b46]

I've said my peace on the subject and contend that &quot;Christians&quot; are only trying to justify their lustful habits by reading into these statements that Jesus was a drunkard, inspite of scriptural admonistions against the 'social' use of alcoholic beverages.

Most alcoholics started out as moderate social drinkers.

Also the scripture teaches that the drunkards shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor. 6:10)

The change that takes place in a true Spirit filled Christian's life is a new heart which generates a new desire. It generates repentence to turn from the rudiments of this world that leads to destruction. 

People on this board can condemn Arminians all they want to, but they cannot refute the power and testimony of a transformed life through the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit of a genuinely born-again Christian.


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## Bladestunner316 (Jun 17, 2004)

Does anybody have an email address to the mods or webmaster of timebombers forum?

blade


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## cupotea (Jun 17, 2004)

[quote:6353a3eb34][i:6353a3eb34]Originally posted by Bladestunner316[/i:6353a3eb34]
Does anybody have an email address to the mods or webmaster of timebombers forum?

blade [/quote:6353a3eb34]

I just did a search and found their forum. I don't think they have moderators. I'll do a host search to see if they have contact in and will PM you.


{edit} Well that didn't work too well.

Administrative Contact:
., . [email protected]
.
., . 00000
US
0000000000

Technical Contact:
., . [email protected]
..
., . 00000
US
0000000000


[Edited on 6-17-2004 by CajunBibleBeliever]


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## RamistThomist (Jun 17, 2004)

[quote:4ecbcd4018][i:4ecbcd4018]Originally posted by CajunBibleBeliever[/i:4ecbcd4018]


I've said my peace on the subject and contend that &quot;Christians&quot; are only trying to justify their lustful habits by reading into these statements that Jesus was a drunkard, inspite of scriptural admonistions against the 'social' use of alcoholic beverages.[/quote:4ecbcd4018]

If that be the case (justifying lustful habits) then it is a sin. No one is saying that He was a drunkard, but that he was drinking wine and from that made the false deduction that he was drunk. 

[quote:4ecbcd4018]

Most alcoholics started out as moderate social drinkers.

Also the scripture teaches that the drunkards shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor. 6:10)

The change that takes place in a true Spirit filled Christian's life is a new heart which generates a new desire. It generates repentence to turn from the rudiments of this world that leads to destruction. [/quote:4ecbcd4018]

That is a good saying, and a true one, but in this context it is not necessarily opposed to alcohol intake.

[quote:4ecbcd4018]People on this board can condemn Arminians all they want to, but they cannot refute the power and testimony of a transformed life through the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit of a genuinely born-again Christian. [/quote:4ecbcd4018]

Nobody would even try to refute that. Unless I missed something somewhere, I don't see the connection between your last paragraph and the point at hand. However, assuming the connection I would say that you have a point with respect for personal abstention from alcohol. If someone has been an alcoholic then they probably do not need to be moderately intaking alcohol, especially if they were to show [i:4ecbcd4018]power and testimony of a transformed life through the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit of a genuinely born-again Christian.[/i:4ecbcd4018]

Compared to other message boards, y'all are acting within the bounds of cordiality. I have yet to see childish name-calling or straw-men thrown around.


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## cupotea (Jun 17, 2004)

Jacob,

The problem I am seeing here is that too many Christians here are trying to claim that Jesus endorses the same lifestyle that has left more people dead along the US highways, busted up more homes, resulted in battered wives and children. 

The scriptural admonitions in Proverbs should be sufficient enough to warrant against its use for social purposes. Plus the fact that those who become so adamant against those who try to promote abstinence from a scriptural foundation also tells me that there is something wrong with this picture.


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## Ianterrell (Jun 17, 2004)

[quote:e9cbf593da][i:e9cbf593da]Originally posted by houseparent[/i:e9cbf593da]
Oh come on Brent!

Surely you could see Jesus coming over to your house for the Super bowl and cracking open a Bud as he kicked back to watch right? [/quote:e9cbf593da]

Yep I sure could.


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## ReformedWretch (Jun 17, 2004)

[quote:aad44ff28d][i:aad44ff28d]Originally posted by Ianterrell[/i:aad44ff28d]
[quote:aad44ff28d][i:aad44ff28d]Originally posted by houseparent[/i:aad44ff28d]
Oh come on Brent!

Surely you could see Jesus coming over to your house for the Super bowl and cracking open a Bud as he kicked back to watch right? [/quote:aad44ff28d]

Yep I sure could. [/quote:aad44ff28d]

Really?:no:


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## raderag (Jun 17, 2004)

[quote:726a071f66][i:726a071f66]Originally posted by CajunBibleBeliever[/i:726a071f66]
Jacob,

The problem I am seeing here is that too many Christians here are trying to claim that Jesus endorses the same lifestyle that has left more people dead along the US highways, busted up more homes, resulted in battered wives and children. 
[/quote:726a071f66]

Come on now, do you think that is the beers fault? You are making a totally unscritpual argument. Just because there are abusers of alchohol, doesn't make it a sin.


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## Craig (Jun 17, 2004)

[quote:c2eaef2cd7]
Most alcoholics started out as moderate social drinkers
[/quote:c2eaef2cd7]
And most rapists start out by enjoying monogomous, heterosexual sex. Hey, same with those who frequent strip joints and hookers. Married men frequent those most often, so i think marriage and heterosexual sex is clearly sin. Remember, Paul said it's better to be unmarried. I have established this doctrine biblically!
[quote:c2eaef2cd7]
33For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.' [b:c2eaef2cd7]34The Son of Man came eating and drinking,[/b:c2eaef2cd7][/quote:c2eaef2cd7]
Cajun....you do realize that Jesus says this, right? It's the pharisees who say this:
[quote:c2eaef2cd7]
'Here is a glutton and a drunkard
[/quote:c2eaef2cd7]

I will be the one to say taking the approach of abstinence in regards to alcohol is fine....however, the arena you take it to is legalism. You are not distinguishing between what is lawful and in fact GOOD from a sinful indulgence in alcohol. I wasn't trying to be crude with my first comment on this post. It may be that you don't want to drink alcohol...fine. But please don't contort the scriptures to fit your [i:c2eaef2cd7]higher[/i:c2eaef2cd7] lifestyle approach.

Remember...there was a fall and sin entered the world. You may want to defend your legalism with the &quot;your body is a temple&quot; shpeal, but it just doesn't work. Because of the Fall NOTHING is perfectly good for you. You can have too much of one mineral or vitamin and it will kill you. Things that are normally good for you can be bad if taken too much of. There are benefits to drinking alcohol...maybe not too much health-wise, but there are some. But i don't even need to justify it that way. Jesus said He came eating AND DRINKING and the [b:c2eaef2cd7]Pharisees drew their own conclusions[/b:c2eaef2cd7].

[quote:c2eaef2cd7]
The problem I am seeing here is that too many Christians here are trying to claim that Jesus endorses the same lifestyle that has left more people dead along the US highways, busted up more homes, resulted in battered wives and children.
[/quote:c2eaef2cd7]
You do realize its the prohibitionist spirit that helps create a culture that views alcohol as &quot;naughty pleasure&quot;, right? I imagine that causes more abuse than those who enjoy alcohol as our Lord did. The culture that you hate so much is a product of the abolition. It's shaped how people view alcohol and how it's to be used.

[Edited on 6-17-2004 by Craig]


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## ReformedWretch (Jun 17, 2004)

I don't see the point in debating this again and again. I personally do not know if Jesus drank alcohol or not. But I believe firmly that he would not if He were to come today.


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## Craig (Jun 17, 2004)

Adam,
that is speculation. 

Abstaining from alcohol is fine. 

Drinking alcohol is fine.

Getting drunk is not.


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## cupotea (Jun 17, 2004)

[quote:4253a41519][i:4253a41519]Originally posted by houseparent[/i:4253a41519]
I don't see the point in debating this again and again. I personally do not know if Jesus drank alcohol or not. But I believe firmly that he would not if He were to come today. [/quote:4253a41519]

 and 

Just goes to show that if you throw out a controversial subject on any forum, especially one that steps on their toes, you are bound to get feathers ruffled.


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## ServantoftheLamb (Jun 17, 2004)

People will always strive as hard as they possibly can to justify the old nature and their dabbling in it. It reminds me of the quote by John Calvin:

&quot;So indulgent is man towards himself, that, while doing evil, he always endeavours as much as he can to suppress the idea of sin.&quot;

Rather than supressing the source of the problem, man wishes to reconcile his Christian experience with the culture of unbelievers. As this happens, the vast majority of the church is subject to worldly shifts. The PCUSA is now allowing female preachers. This is in direct line of a movement started one-hundred-years ago by violent feminists who managed to infiltrate almost all of Western culture with the help of Liberalism. They have no scriptural support for such actions. Will we be surprised if, in 10 years, the Christian church is indifferent to the &quot;reproductive rights&quot; that this same group has successfully pushed some years ago?

Is it [i:572bbc0e99]the[/i:572bbc0e99] falling away? No one can say, but it is certainly [i:572bbc0e99]a[/i:572bbc0e99] falling away. As disciples of Christ we can simply say, in a spirit of humility, &quot;Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.&quot; There is no reason or room for us to reconcile our lives with those of the world.

[Edited on 6-18-2004 by ServantoftheLamb]


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## Puritan Sailor (Jun 17, 2004)

[quote:48db68b49b][i:48db68b49b]Originally posted by Ianterrell[/i:48db68b49b]
[quote:48db68b49b][i:48db68b49b]Originally posted by houseparent[/i:48db68b49b]
Oh come on Brent!

Surely you could see Jesus coming over to your house for the Super bowl and cracking open a Bud as he kicked back to watch right? [/quote:48db68b49b]

Yep I sure could. [/quote:48db68b49b]
A beer? Maybe. 
Watching the Superbowl? Not after last year


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## Scott Bushey (Jun 17, 2004)

I'm closing this thread..........it's done. It's getting goofy.


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