# The State of the ARP



## Hamalas

So I'm wondering if some of you could offer your perspective on the current state of the ARP. I followed some of the back and forth with Erskine a few years back and from the few people I know in the ARP the sense I get is that the denomination had faced some real struggles and setbacks but was now headed in the right direction. I'm a bit fuzzy on the details however and was wondering if any of you could help me to understand 1) what issues the denomination faced, 2) what issues remain, and 3) what your general take is on the relative health and vitality of confessional Presbyterianism within the ARP. Thanks!


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## Michael K

Ben,

As I've just joined an ARP church this weekend, my answer might be a bit too elementary. I will attempt to answer with what I remember from my membership class.



Hamalas said:


> 1) what issues the denomination faced



The ARP used to have exclusive Psalm singing, but have opened up to include hymns.



Hamalas said:


> 2) what issues remain



Perhaps the biggest 'issue' I still have with the ARP is they allow women deacons. Local congregations decide whether or not to allow women deacons. From what I have found online, this seems to be an exception and not the rule. 



Hamalas said:


> 3) what your general take is on the relative health and vitality of confessional Presbyterianism within the ARP.



Since I've already admitted to joining an ARP church, my answer here is biased and short on experience. It took my family many months to find a church near us that believed in expository preaching. We had many options from which to choose... mostly PCA. Unfortunately, the PCA churches around us are heavily influenced by culture and we found none that had expository preaching. Our ARP church did. My hope is that God continues to work and lead the ARP to remain faithful to Scripture. He has helped our family grow in His Word much since we began attending Peachtree Corners Presbyterian Church.

This is probably not the best answer to your questions, but I look forward to seeing what, if anything, others have to say.


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## Logan

Michael K said:


> The ARP used to have exclusive Psalm singing, but have opened up to include hymns.



Just curious, but hasn't it been quite some time since the ARP was EP? As in, since the 1950s at least? I know the RPCNA's publication house (Crown and Covenant) was commissioned recently to produce a new psalter for them within the last couple of years though.


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## Michael K

According to Wikipedia, it was around 1946 when they starting allowing hymns.


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## JML

Maybe we should ask one of the "noted ARP ministers" Pastor Tim Phillips of Wikipedia fame:



> Noted ARP ministers of today and the recent past include Dr. Wilson, Dr. Kuykendall, Dr. Chap Lauderdale, Dr. Francis Young Pressly, Rev. C. Caldwell, Rev. Bob Elliott, *Rev. Tim Phillips*, Rev. Eddie Spencer, Rev. Mark Brown Grier, Rev. Kit Grier, Rev. William Evans, Jay E. Adams, Sinclair Ferguson, Derek Thomas, John R. de Witt, Mark Ross, David Henry Lauten, and Frank Reich.



He even beat out Jay Adams and Derek Thomas on the list!


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## Jake

I've heard some promising things about the denomination as of late, including joint worship sessions with the RPCNA for synod meetings as a recent development. It seems to be a very wide denomination though: the denomination college and to a lesser extent seminary have had some fights with liberalism and there is a wide variety from church to church, much like the PCA. There are more EP congregations in the ARP than the PCA, however.

I'm sure some ARP ministers here that frequent the board including Benjamin Glasser, Tim Phillips, and Ian Duguid can give more information.


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## Scott1

Jake said:


> There are more EP congregations in the ARP than the PCA, however.



Are there any such congregations in either denomination?

Is that allowed since neither has that in their denomination constitution?


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## JML

Scott1 said:


> Are there any such congregations in either denomination?
> 
> Is that allowed since neither has that in their denomination constitution?



According to Tim Lindsay's EP listings here are the number of EP congregations in the U.S.:

PCA - 1 (Brainerd Hills Pres. in Chattanooga)
ARP - 2
OPC - 5

Reactions: Wow 1


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## Scott1

John Lanier said:


> Scott1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are there any such congregations in either denomination?
> 
> Is that allowed since neither has that in their denomination constitution?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to Tim Lindsay's EP listings here are the number of EP congregations in the U.S.:
> 
> PCA - 1 (Brainerd Hills Pres. in Chattanooga)
> ARP - 2
> OPC - 5
Click to expand...


That's interesting. Very few, of course, but 5 for the OPC size is almost significant.
Any idea how that could be maintained as doctrine by a local congregation when it is not for any of those three denominations?


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## SolaScriptura

John Lanier said:


> Maybe we should ask one of the "noted ARP ministers" Pastor Tim Phillips of Wikipedia fame:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Noted ARP ministers of today and the recent past include Dr. Wilson, Dr. Kuykendall, Dr. Chap Lauderdale, Dr. Francis Young Pressly, Rev. C. Caldwell, Rev. Bob Elliott, *Rev. Tim Phillips*, Rev. Eddie Spencer, Rev. Mark Brown Grier, Rev. Kit Grier, Rev. William Evans, Jay E. Adams, Sinclair Ferguson, Derek Thomas, John R. de Witt, Mark Ross, David Henry Lauten, and Frank Reich.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He even beat out Jay Adams and Derek Thomas on the list!
Click to expand...


Wow! That list is about 50% of the ARP's ministers!


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## JML

SolaScriptura said:


> Wow! That list is about 50% of the ARP's ministers!



Glaser didn't make the cut. 

I demand a recount!


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## JML

Scott1 said:


> Any idea how that could be maintained as doctrine by a local congregation when it is not for any of those three denominations?



The OPC BCO states:



> Congregations do well to sing the metrical versions or other musical settings of the Psalms frequently in public worship. Congregations also do well to sing hymns of praise that respond to the full scope of divine revelation.



The way it reads, "do well to" is a recommendation and not a requirement. So, according to this a congregation that sings no psalms or only psalms could still be in compliance. I am not as familiar with the church order for the PCA or ARP.


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## Reformed Covenanter

John Lanier said:


> SolaScriptura said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow! That list is about 50% of the ARP's ministers!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Glaser didn't make the cut.
> 
> I demand a recount!
Click to expand...


 The fact that he is a Hibs fan means that he is doomed to perpetual obscurity.


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## Marrow Man

Before getting back to "seriousness" on the thread, there are 250+ ARP churches, so that list does not contain about 50% of the ARP's ministers. While not nearly as large as the PCA, the ARP is the second largest NAPARC denomination (although the OPC and the ARP are essentially about the same size). Also, several of the pastors on that list are either retired or not in the ARP any longer.

To answer the questions:

1) what issues [has] the denomination faced

Nailing down inerrancy (the issue which essentially turned the tide in denomination away from a liberal slide in the 1970s), women's ordination (rejected with respect to eldership around 1980), and struggles over the denomination's college and seminary (recent years)

2) what issues remain

A more robust confessionalism. Some of the same issues that plague certain other Reformed bodies (not naming names) have affected the ARP -- in particular, Regulative Principle issues and Sabbatarianism. With the RPW, the problem is not contemporary worship (although you will see that in a few churches), but more liturgical/mainline worship styles in congregations. Part of this is because of ARP heredity: the ARP did not, for instance, allow the celebration of "holy days" until the 1975 Book of Worship (previous versions of the worship standard of the ARP actually forbade this, as late as the directory which came out in 1955); it is almost certain, however, that many churches were already doing this prior to the allowance in 1975. So, a standard of the church was altered to fit with what was almost certainly an existing practice in the churches that was adopted by following worship practices of mainline churches and contrary to the ARP's own adopted standards. Such was the ARP of the 1970s.

3) what your general take is on the relative health and vitality of confessional Presbyterianism within the ARP.

Things are slowly and steadily getting better in the ARP, and have been for some time. The younger ministers who come into the denomination are generally good men. Many have been trained at RTS Charlotte, which seems to be an excellent seminary. A more robust confessionalism would be nice, but there are trends that are encouraging, such as the fact that psalmody is making a noticeable comeback (e.g., the publication of the ARP Psater by Crown and Covenant in 2011).

Just to give a gauge of slow and steady progress: I became pastor of my present congregation in 2007. When I came, we sang ZERO psalms in worship, and the hymnal we were using was neither good nor Reformed. Now, we sing majority psalms during the morning service, and have an afternoon service (which we did not have in 2007) that is all psalms. We now use the ARP Psalter and the Trinity Hymnal for all of our congregational singing.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

To echo what Tim noted (and I also demand a recount on the Wikipedia page, which needs updated in several places) there is a real, growing move towards a more intentional confessionalism. Included in this is a special committee to get rid of the added two chapters of the WCF that were adopted during the ARP's rumspringa. 

It is also worth remembering that, like the RPCNA, we have never been a part of the "mainline" church like the OPC and PCA have. We are also in many ways kind of the "forgotten" grandfather of the confessionally Reformed world. The PCA and OPC get most of the press and attention, but as Tim noted we are bigger than the OPC.


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## Logan

This is very encouraging to hear. Thank you Revs Glaser and Phillips.


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## JML

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> To echo what Tim noted (and I also demand a recount on the Wikipedia page, which needs updated in several places) there is a real, growing move towards a more intentional confessionalism. Included in this is a special committee to get rid of the added two chapters of the WCF that were adopted during the ARP's rumspringa.



This is great to hear. I definitely mean no disrespect to the ARP or its ministers. I just couldn't resist when I saw on the Wikipedia page that there was a celebrity pastor amongst us.


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## Jake

Scott1 said:


> John Lanier said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scott1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are there any such congregations in either denomination?
> 
> Is that allowed since neither has that in their denomination constitution?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to Tim Lindsay's EP listings here are the number of EP congregations in the U.S.:
> 
> PCA - 1 (Brainerd Hills Pres. in Chattanooga)
> ARP - 2
> OPC - 5
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's interesting. Very few, of course, but 5 for the OPC size is almost significant.
> Any idea how that could be maintained as doctrine by a local congregation when it is not for any of those three denominations?
Click to expand...


To respond to both of you:

I've had the pleasure to visit with Brainerd Hills PCA a couple of times. I don't know their exact relationship to the standards of the PCA, but they often use uninspired hymns on the Lord's Day, but not within called worship. They typically have a hymn or psalm from the Trinity Hymnal before the call to worship and then use the psalter (BPS) exclusively after the call to worship. This may satisfy PCA requirements to sing songs outside of the Psalter, but I'm not familiar enough with the DPW and such of the PCA to know if this is the case. 

For some reason, I thought there were more EP congregations in the ARP. I actually count 3 on Tim's map, but still that is a low number and not significantly more than the PCA. I had a perception of greater psalm singing, but maybe more of that is in the past. ARP churches I have visited with have all included at least one psalm from a psalter in worship, though none exclusively.


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## reaganmarsh

John Lanier said:


> SolaScriptura said:
> 
> 
> 
> Glaser didn't make the cut.
> 
> I demand a recount!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Neither did Nick Napier! I second the motion for a recount!
Click to expand...


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## JML

Jake said:


> I actually count 3 on Tim's map



#3 is in Nova Scotia. I had just listed the ones in the U.S.


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## Scott1

This is very encouraging news and informative about the direction of the ARP.

I am glad they are a longtime member of NAPARC.

How are differences, scruples to the Westminster Standards dealt with?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Pretty much the same way they are handled in the PCA.


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## Wayne

Jake said:



> This may satisfy PCA requirements to sing songs outside of the Psalter,



Just to be clear, there is no such requirement.


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## Scott1

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Pretty much the same way they are handled in the PCA.



So, does that mean the ARP Constitution requires candidates state differences in their own words, then the Presbytery evaluate them and classify them as:

1) merely semantic
2) minor
3) major

With review by General Assembly through its committee?


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## Marrow Man

Jake said:


> I had a perception of greater psalm singing, but maybe more of that is in the past. ARP churches I have visited with have all included at least one psalm from a psalter in worship, though none exclusively.



Psalm-singing is making a comeback, just not _exclusive_ psalmody.

Keep in mind that much of Christianity has no idea what psalm-singing even is. I had not even heard of it (and I had been Reformed for over a decade) when my wife and I were looking to join an ARP church in 2001. A gradual move back to psalm-singing -- even if it is only 1 or 2 per worship service -- is far better than things were just a decade or two ago.


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## Edward

Michael K said:


> Unfortunately, the PCA churches around us are heavily influenced by culture and we found none that had expository preaching.



Doesn't really surprise me as to the ones in Metro Atlanta Presbytery, but I would have thought you'd have a better shot with the ones in Foothills Presbytery, and Northwest Georgia isn't too far away.


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## Edward

Jake said:


> This may satisfy PCA requirements to sing songs outside of the Psalter



I hope that statement is made from ignorance.

From the 20th General Assembly of the PCA:

6. That General Assembly answer Overture #8 as amended in the affirmative.
Adopted.

OVERTURE 8 From Central Georgia Presbytery
"Study Committee to Encourage Psalm Singing"

Whereas, metrical Psalm singing has been a vital part of the Reformed tradition from the earliest years of the Reformation, and

Whereas, Psalm singing prevailed in the Presbyterian Churches for over 300 years, but has been nearly supplanted by hymn singing in the last 100 years, and,

Whereas, Psalm singing played a crucial role in the development of the distinctive piety of the Reformed tradition, and

Whereas, Psalm singing will richly enhance the spirituality of contemporary Presbyterianism,

Now Therefore, be it resolved, that the 20th General Assembly hereby appoints a sub-committee of the Christian Education and Publications Committee to formulate practical ways in which Psalm singing can be encouraged in the congregations of the Presbyterian Church in America and other Reformed churches and to make report regarding this at next General Assembly; that this sub-committee have a budget of $3,000, to be raised through donations; and that we recommend this Sub-Committee on Psalm singing include the following:


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## Jake

Wayne said:


> Jake said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This may satisfy PCA requirements to sing songs outside of the Psalter,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just to be clear, there is no such requirement.
Click to expand...




Edward said:


> Jake said:
> 
> 
> 
> This may satisfy PCA requirements to sing songs outside of the Psalter
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope that statement is made from ignorance.
Click to expand...


Glad to hear this might not be the case! In a combination of Scott's concern about EP churches in the PCA and some comments I had heard from a PCA elder, I thought this might be the case. I meant to make it sound more hypothetical when I said it in my post above. I don't know where to verify it (I can't seem to find a DPW for the PCA, for example), so I am glad to hear from Mr. Sparkman that it is not the case.


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## TylerRay

Jake said:


> I've had the pleasure to visit with Brainerd Hills PCA a couple of times. I don't know their exact relationship to the standards of the PCA, but they often use uninspired hymns on the Lord's Day, but not within called worship. They typically have a hymn or psalm from the Trinity Hymnal before the call to worship and then use the psalter (BPS) exclusively after the call to worship. This may satisfy PCA requirements to sing songs outside of the Psalter, but I'm not familiar enough with the DPW and such of the PCA to know if this is the case.



Our elders at BHPC are very mindful of the standards of the PCA, and seek to act in full accordance with them. As Wayne noted, there is no requirement for hymn singing in the PCA. Brainerd Hills has come a long way from singing weak gospel songs with a choir, special music, and the works 25 years ago; and now we sing only Psalms after the call to worship, and usually an uninspired hymn before the call. All of this is usually accompanied by a piano.

To clarify why our practice is what it is, our Teaching Elder is not convinced of Exclusive Psalmody (and neither are the majority of our members), but he loves to sing the Psalms. Our two Ruling Elders, on the other hand, are Exclusive Psalmodists.


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## Edward

Jake said:


> I don't know where to verify it (I can't seem to find a DPW for the PCA, for example)



The PCA directory is located in the back of the Book of Church Order. PDF here, see http://www.pcaac.org/wp-content/upl...LL-with-links-for-Web-site-12-20-2013-asn.pdf

The Directory for the Worship of God starts with Chapter 47 through Chapter 63 in the BCO. Please note that only Chapters 56-58 (Baptism, Admission to Sealing Ordinances, and Lord's Supper) have constitutional authority. The rest is advisory only.


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## Hamalas

Praise God! Thanks gentlemen for this report, it is encouraging. I will continue to pray for this wonderful denomination. It's a blessing to be reminded that denominations don't always have to decline! What God has done in you and the SBC is a real encouragement to those of us struggling with decline in our own denominational contexts.


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## Unoriginalname

While I get that the devil assaults the church in a variety of ways, would those in the ARP say that there is a struggle between two poles: one being those causing controversy at Erskine and the other being the more confessional end which seeks closer association with the RPCNA? Is that a fair assessment, or are the issues more complicated?


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## Marrow Man

Unoriginalname said:


> While I get that the devil assaults the church in a variety of ways, would those in the ARP say that there is a struggle between two poles: one being those causing controversy at Erskine and the other being the more confessional end which seeks closer association with the RPCNA? Is that a fair assessment, or are the issues more complicated?



It is probably more complicated than that. Historically, there has been a group within the ARP that has wanted to follow closely after the Southern Presbyterians (now embodied in the PCA). That explains some of the unfortunate decisions the denomination took (with regard to worship, for instance in the mid-20th century. That tendency is probably shifting, as the ARP is now seeking a closer connection with the RPCNA and (possibly) the OPC. All that is good news.

The struggle over Erskine (particularly Erskine College) was not strictly an ARP one. What I mean is this: because the denomination is small, lots of students attend Erskine who are not connected to the denomination. A lot of alumni/donors who were struggling with the Synod for control of the college were not ARPs. This is not the say that there weren't ARPs in the midst of this; there were (and some being very public about it), but a great number seemed to be outside the denomination.

Having said all that, when an agreement was reached on the issues surrounding Erskine at last year's Synod, there was not a single nay vote. Instead, the Synod responded with a standing ovation at the solution that was reached (primarily with regard to procedures for removal of Board of Trustees members by the Synod). That was a huge thing. There are still problems, but things on that front are moving in the right direction.


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## SRoper

Marrow Man said:


> Also, several of the pastors on that list are either retired or not in the ARP any longer.





Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> (and I also demand a recount on the Wikipedia page, which needs updated in several places)



You can just click the edit link. You're probably more qualified to make changes than the last guy who touched it.

Rev. Glaser, are you from southern Ohio, West Virginia, or western Pennsylvania by any chance?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

I was born and raised in West Virginia, went to college and married a girl from south/southwestern Ohio, and finished college/seminary in Pittsburgh, so yes.


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## Logan

My father-in-law used to be an ARP minister so I've been encouraged to hear the direction the denomination seems to be thinking. Was also encouraged by the commissioning of the new psalter recently (to replace "Bible Songs" wasn't it?).

I was also introduced (somewhat) to the concept of reformed theology by a fellow competitive gamer who later became an ARP minister


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## nicnap

reaganmarsh said:


> Neither did Nick Napier! I second the motion for a recount!



I prefer my relative anonymity. It allows me to see/hear things and then get into fun bouts of mischievousness.


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## reaganmarsh

nicnap said:


> reaganmarsh said:
> 
> 
> 
> Neither did Nick Napier! I second the motion for a recount!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I prefer my relative anonymity. It allows me to see/hear things and then get into fun bouts of mischievousness.
Click to expand...



Ha ha!


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## SRoper

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> I was born and raised in West Virginia, went to college and married a girl from south/southwestern Ohio, and finished college/seminary in Pittsburgh, so yes.



I ask because you do the same thing my wife does which is drop "to be" ("needs updated"). I understand it is a feature of certain Midland dialects as well as the Central Pennsylvania dialect.


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## N. Eshelman

SRoper said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was born and raised in West Virginia, went to college and married a girl from south/southwestern Ohio, and finished college/seminary in Pittsburgh, so yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I ask because you do the same thing my wife does which is drop "to be" ("needs updated"). I understand it is a feature of certain Midland dialects as well as the Central Pennsylvania dialect.
Click to expand...


YES! (I am a Western PA native and it took getting out of the hills to understand what "to be" even meant!)


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## Logan

Does this mean that Hamlet from Central PA too?



> "To be" or not "to be", that is the question.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

SRoper said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was born and raised in West Virginia, went to college and married a girl from south/southwestern Ohio, and finished college/seminary in Pittsburgh, so yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I ask because you do the same thing my wife does which is drop "to be" ("needs updated"). I understand it is a feature of certain Midland dialects as well as the Central Pennsylvania dialect.
Click to expand...


Haha!

One of the cool things about growing up in West Virginia is that you get a mix of southern dialect (like I use the word fixin' to describe what I am getting ready to do) with midwestern things like that.


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## Scottish Lass

Logan said:


> Was also encouraged by the commissioning of the new psalter recently (to replace "Bible Songs" wasn't it?).



Selected Bible Songs are included in the new psalter, too, starting after 150, so no more "Number 26 in the back!" when taking requests.


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## Andres

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> I also demand a recount on the Wikipedia page



Fixed it.


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## Michael K

Could someone explain how women deacons came to be in the ARPC?


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## Scott1

Michael K said:


> Could someone explain how women deacons came to be in the ARPC?



There is a section of this paper on that aspect:
The Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America (Covenanter), 1888
A Historical and Biblical Examination of Women Deacons


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## Craig.Scott

Reformed Covenanter said:


> John Lanier said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SolaScriptura said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow! That list is about 50% of the ARP's ministers!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Glaser didn't make the cut.
> 
> I demand a recount!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The fact that he is a Hibs fan means that he is doomed to perpetual obscurity.
Click to expand...



I believe the official rules of Wikipedia state that all Hibees will be permitted to be referenced when they win their next Scottish Cup...


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Scott1 said:


> Michael K said:
> 
> 
> 
> Could someone explain how women deacons came to be in the ARPC?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is a section of this paper on that aspect:
> The Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America (Covenanter), 1888
> A Historical and Biblical Examination of Women Deacons
Click to expand...


The ARP didn't adopt women deacons until the 1960's/1970's and it primarily was used as a pressure release valve to calm the agitators pushing for women elders, which was decisively defeated by 1980. Women deacons are on their way out in the ARP by natural means.


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## Reformed Covenanter

Craig.Scott said:


> I believe the official rules of Wikipedia state that all Hibees will be permitted to be referenced when they win their next Scottish Cup...



Oh well, there is always the next 112 years!


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Well at least Hibs will be in the Premier League next year.


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## Reformed Covenanter

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Well at least Hibs will be in the Premier League next year.



It will be so hard for them without the Hearts' under-16 team to play against.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian




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## N. Eshelman

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Scott1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Michael K said:
> 
> 
> 
> Could someone explain how women deacons came to be in the ARPC?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is a section of this paper on that aspect:
> The Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America (Covenanter), 1888
> A Historical and Biblical Examination of Women Deacons
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The ARP didn't adopt women deacons until the 1960's/1970's and it primarily was used as a pressure release valve to calm the agitators pushing for women elders, which was decisively defeated by 1980. Women deacons are on their way out in the ARP by natural means.
Click to expand...


Do you know how many women deacons are serving in the ARP? (I don't know the answer for the RPCNA.)


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

N. Eshelman said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scott1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Michael K said:
> 
> 
> 
> Could someone explain how women deacons came to be in the ARPC?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is a section of this paper on that aspect:
> The Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America (Covenanter), 1888
> A Historical and Biblical Examination of Women Deacons
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The ARP didn't adopt women deacons until the 1960's/1970's and it primarily was used as a pressure release valve to calm the agitators pushing for women elders, which was decisively defeated by 1980. Women deacons are on their way out in the ARP by natural means.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do you know how many women deacons are serving in the ARP? (I don't know the answer for the RPCNA.)
Click to expand...


I have no idea how many are serving, but it is a small minority.


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## Marrow Man

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> I have no idea how many are serving, but it is a small minority.



The number I have seen from others (and this might be totally off) is that roughly 25% of ARP churches have female deacons.

In our presbytery (25 churches), only 1 or 2 have female deacons, at most. The one church which I know for certain did only had one such lady. She has since passed away, and now the church is closed.


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## Scott1

According to this approved Position Paper by the ARP:
http://www.arpsynod.org/downloads/Women In the Church.pdf

the capitulation of ordaining women to the office of Deacon occurred in 1969, and in the context of declining to ordain women to the office of Elder or Minister.


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## Marrow Man

Scott1 said:


> According to this approved Position Paper by the ARP:
> http://www.arpsynod.org/downloads/Women In the Church.pdf
> 
> the capitulation of ordaining women to the office of Deacon occurred in 1969, and in the context of declining to ordain women to the office of Elder or Minister.



That is correct. A committee studying the matter made the recommendation for women to be ordained to both offices. There was considerable debate with regard to women being ordained as elders. The recommendation was revised to only the office of deacon, and that passed w/o much resistance.


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## whirlingmerc

I think Kevin DeYoung who is a pastor of an ARP church made some mention of ARP in this talk a couple weeks ago in Louisville 
Denominations: Your Grandfather


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## Romans922

Kevin DeYoung is in the RCA, working to come into the PCA...


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## Hamalas

Romans922 said:


> Kevin DeYoung is in the RCA, working to come into the PCA...



I knew about the RCA part but I hadn't heard they were coming into the PCA! What's the details on this?


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## Michael K

The church I just joined has 3 women deacons. As far as I can determine, they are over women ministries. Thanks for all the replies.


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