# David and his census idea



## Pergamum (Oct 13, 2008)

Who gave him that idea? God or Satan? Or David? 

How do these things interact?


Can the devil put thoughts into our heads? How did he tempt David to number the people then? Is God an accomplice to sin?


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## InevitablyReformed (Oct 13, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> Who gave him that idea? God or Satan? Or David?
> 
> How do these things interact?
> 
> ...



Funny, my wife and I were pondering this recently.


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## TimV (Oct 13, 2008)

WCF chapter 5

IV. The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God so far manifest themselves in His providence, that it extends itself even to the first fall, and all other sins of angels and men; and that not by a bare permission, but such as has joined with it a most wise and powerful bounding, and otherwise ordering, and governing of them, in a manifold dispensation, to His own holy ends; yet so, as the sinfulness thereof proceeds only from the creature, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.


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## py3ak (Oct 13, 2008)

God's decree lay back of it all. The devil worked on David's pride to promote the census. God gave him a witness against in the unlikely person of Joab, but David was obstinate.

John Brown raises the question as to what God decreed with regard to the sinfulness of actions (as opposed to the matter and goodness of them). The answer:
"To permit, bound, and over-rule it to his own glory."

So no, God is neither the author of nor the accomplice to sin.


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## Pergamum (Oct 13, 2008)

In what way did the Lord move David and in what way did the Devil move David? 

Any links to commentaries?


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## py3ak (Oct 13, 2008)

I would say that the devil, because of his own iniquity, moved David (who was movable because of his sinfulness). God had decreed that that action would take place. I'll let the Librarian give you the links!


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## Pergamum (Oct 13, 2008)

Oh Mr. Librarian!!!!!


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Oct 13, 2008)

Westminster Confession of Faith:



> Section 5.4.—The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God, so far manifest themselves in his providence, that it extendeth itself even to the first fall, and all other sins of angels and men, [Rom 11:32-34; 2 Sam 24:1; 1 Chron 21:1; 1 Kings 22:22-23; 1 Chron 10:4,13-14; 2 Sam 16:10; Acts 2:23; Acts 4:27-28] and that not by a bare permission, [Acts 14:16] but such as hath joined with it a most wise and powerful bounding, [Ps 76:10; 2 Kings 19:28] and otherwise ordering and governing of them, in a manifold dispensation, to his own holy ends; [Gen 50:20; Isa 10:6-7,12] yet so as the sinfulness thereof proceedeth only from the creature, and not from God; who being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin. [James 1:13-14,17; 1 John 2:16; Ps 50:21]
> 
> Section 5.5.—The most wise, righteous, and gracious God, doth oftentimes leave for a season his own children to manifold temptations, and the corruption of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption, and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled; [2 Chron 32:25-26,31; 2 Sam 24:1] and to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon himself, and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for sundry other just and holy ends. [2 Cor 12:7-9; Ps 73; Ps 77:1,10,12; Mark 14:66-72; John 21:15,17]



Fisher's Catechism:



> Q. 106.5. When may God be said to lead his people into temptation permissively?
> 
> A. When he suffers them to be assaulted by the tempter, and, at the same time, withholds those aids of grace, which would prevent their compliance with the temptation, as in the case of David's numbering the people, 2 Sam 24:1, compared with 1 Chron 21:1.
> 
> ...



Matthew Poole on 2 Sam. 24.1:



> 2 Sam 24:1. Again, to wit, after the former tokens of his anger, such as the three years' famine, 2 Sam 21. He moved David he: who? Either, 1. Satan, as is expressed, 1 Chron 21:1. Or, 2. God; who is said, in like manner, to stir up Saul against David, 1 Sam 26:19, and to turn the hearts of the Egyptians to hate his people, Ps 105:25, and to make men to err from his ways, Isa 63:17, and to send strong delusions, etc., and to harden their hearts. All which expressions are not so to be understood, as if God did work these sinful dispositions; which neither was necessary, because they are naturally in every man's heart, nor possible for the holy God to do; but because he permits them, and withdraws his grace and all restraints and hinderances from them, and giveth occasions and advantages to them; and directs their thoughts to such objects as may indeed be innocently thought of, which yet he knows they will wickedly abuse; and give them up to Satan, who he knows will deceive and entice them to such and such sins; which, being tempted to do by Satan, and being effected by their own wicked hearts, he so orders and overrules, that they shall be punishments for their former sins. Against them, i.e. for Israel's punishment. To say, or, saying. For this may be referred, either, 1. To God, of whom the same expression is used 2 Sam 16:10, The Lord said to Shimei, Curse David; which in both places is not to be understood of any command or impulse of God, but of his secret providence disposing things in manner here above expressed. Or, 2. To David; he moved David to say, to wit, to Joab, as he did, 2 Sam 24:2.



Poole on 1 Chron. 21.1:



> 1 Chron 21:1. Satan stood up, Heb. stood, to wit, before the Lord and his tribunal to accuse David and Israel, and to beg God's permission to tempt David to number the people. Standing is the accuser's posture before men's tribunals; and consequently the Holy Scripture (which useth to speak of God, and of the things of God, after the manner of men, to bring them down to our capacities) elsewhere represents Satan in this posture, as 1 Kings 22:21; Zech 3:1. And so this agrees with 2 Sam 24:1, where the Lord is said to move David, i.e. to give Satan commission or permission to move him; for otherwise God tempteth no man, James 1:13. But of this, and of this whole chapter, and of the variations and seeming contradictions between this narrative and that in Samuel, see my notes on 2 Sam 24.



Matthew Henry on 2 Sam. 24.1:



> 2 Sam 24:1-9
> 
> Here we have,
> 
> ...




Henry on 1 Chron. 21.1:



> 1 Chron 21:1-6
> 
> Numbering the people, one would think, was no bad thing. Why should not the shepherd know the number of his flock? But God sees not as man sees. It is plain it was wrong in David to do it, and a great provocation to God, because he did it in the pride of his heart; and there is no sin that has in it more of contradiction and therefore more of offence to God than pride. The sin was David's; he alone must bear the blame of it. But here we are told,
> 
> I. How active the tempter was in it (1 Chron 21:1): Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to do it. It is said (2 Sam 24:1) that the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David to do it. The righteous judgments of God are to be observed and acknowledged even in the sins and unrighteousness of men. We are sure that God is not the author of sin—he tempts no man; and therefore, when it is said that he moved David to do it, it must be explained by what is intimated here, that, for wise and holy ends, he permitted the devil to do it. Here we trace this foul stream to its foundation. That Satan, the enemy of God and all good, should stand up against Israel, is not strange; it is what he aims at, to weaken the strength, diminish the numbers, and eclipse the glory of God's Israel, to whom he is Satan, a sworn adversary. But that he should influence David, the man of God's own heart to do a wrong thing, may well be wondered at. One would think him one of those whom the wicked one touches not. No, even the best saints, till they come to heaven, must never think themselves out of the reach of Satan's temptations. Now, when Satan meant to do Israel a mischief, what course did he take? He did not move God against them to destroy them (as Job, Job 2:3), but he provoked David, the best friend they had, to number them, and so to offend God, and set him against them. Note, 1. The devil does us more mischief by tempting us to sin against our God than he does by accusing us before our God. He destroys none but by their own hands, 2. The greatest spite he can do to the church of God is to tempt the rulers of the church to pride; for none can conceive the fatal consequences of that sin in all, especially in church-rulers. You shall not be so, Luke 22:26.



Thomas Manton, Exposition of the Lord's Prayer, "And Lead Us not into Temptation," in _Works_, Vol. 1, pp. 206, 225: 



> [3.] He doth it by internal suggestion: 1 Chron 21:1, "And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel;" that is, by internal suggestion. John 13:2, "The devil put it into the heart of Judas to betray him." He haunts and pesters the hearts of men by vain thoughts and carnal imaginations. So "the god of this world" is said to "blind their minds," 2 Cor 4:4.
> ...
> First, We cannot be tempted without the will of God. That God hath a providence in and about temptations, is clear from the scripture: Matt 4:1, "Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness, to be tempted of the devil." The Holy Spirit had a hand in it, as well as the evil spirit. So, 2 Sam 24:1, "God moved David to number Israel and Judah;" but in 1 Chron 21:1, it is said, "And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel." Satan, he cannot tempt without leave from God. As a lion cannot stir out of his cage, until the keeper brings him out, so the devil, this roaring lion, is held by the irresistible chains of God's providence, and cannot stir until God brings him out.



Thomas Manton, Sermon 9 of 18 on 2 Thess 2:11-12, in _Works_, Vol. 3, p. 88:



> (2.) Not only by desertion, but by tradition, delivering them up to the power of Satan: 2 Cor 4:4, "The God of this world hath blinded their eyes." Satan, as the executioner of God's curse, worketh upon the corrupt nature of man, and deceiveth them. It is said, 1 Chron 21:1, "Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel;" but it is said, 2 Sam 24:1, "And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." How shall we reconcile these two places? God gave him over to be tempted by Satan—by God as a judge, by Satan as an executioner. Temptations to sin come immediately from the devil, but they are governed by God for holy and righteous ends. So again, 1 Kings 22:22, the evil spirit had leave and commission to be a lying spirit in Ahab's prophets: "Go forth and do so, and thou shalt prevail with him." There is a permissive intention, not an affective. When they grieve his Spirit, God withdraweth and leaveth them to the evil spirit, who works by their fleshly and worldly lusts, and then they are easily seduced who prefer worldly things before heavenly.



See also Andrew Fuller, _The Harmony of Scripture: Or an Attempt to Reconcile Various Passages, Apparently Contradictory_, 1:669-671, 674-675.


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