# A Calvinistic experiment I'd like to share with you all



## skala (Feb 12, 2009)

I'd like to share with you guys something I was involved in for the past couple of days. I'm a semi-new Calvinist, I have been one for about 1.5-2 years. That being said, I was curious one day how I would have answered a certain question back when I was very Semi-Pelagian in my soteriology.

I decided to do an experiment and pose this same question to some people I know who are openly and fiercely opposed to the Doctrines of Grace, aka Calvinism.

The question I posed to them is this:

"Are you a believer because it was an effectual work of grace on the part of God to bring you to faith? Was it completely God's gracious doing that you came to faith in Christ?"

In other words, was it completely God's gracious doing that you received Christ as Saviour?

Yes or no?"

Now my friends, that is a VERY simple yes or no question. There is no need to give any other answer but "yes" or "no". There is no need to re-phrase the question and then provide an answer other than yes or no. There is no need to avoid directly answering yes or no. There is no need to sidestep the question, pose another situation, and then answer the newly created question.

I even took the liberty, in front of the people in question, to take the initiative and answer the question myself, and then I asked them to followup and answer the question, too.

To get the conversation started, I answered my own question:
"Yes, my coming to faith was 100% a gracious work of God. It was entirely His doing that I embraced Christ as Saviour. Now, will you answer the question, was your coming to faith in Christ completely God's doing, yes or no?"

Here are how things are turning out so far. I have yet to receive a simple yes or no answer from these people! To be fair, it is a difficult question for a non-Calvinist to answer.

They cannot answer "yes" because it would contradict and force them to rethink their entire theological standpoint.

They cannot answer "no" because they know deep down that salvation is entirely of Lord and must not take credit for it.

Onto the show...watch how they consistently dodge the question.

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*Skala:*
If you're a true believer in Christ, was that ultimately 100% God's doing? Yes or no?

*Person* A:
Clarify your question, please.

*Skala*:
Ok let me be more specific: When a person chooses to embrace Christ as Saviour, did he do so because it was 100% an effectual work of Grace on the part of God?

*Person* A:
Of course. It is God who holds before all man life and death and tells man to choose life that he may live. The sacrifice of Jesus on the cross makes that possible.

*Skala*:
You said "Of Course." but then rephrased the question and in doing so did not answer the original question. I asked: "was it an effectual work of Grace on the part of God that is responsible for the man choosing Christ?

If it was effectual, then the next question is, does God do this *effectual* work for everybody?

Yes or no?

*Person* A:
Nope. Only for those who choose to come to Him.

*Skala*:
This statement reversed the question. Let me ask the question again:
When anyone chooses to come to Him, do they do so because of an effectual work of God that is 100% His doing? In other words, WHY do men choose to come to Him? Is the answer "Because it was completely God's gracious doing?", or not? WHY do men choose to come to Christ?

*Person* A:
By hearing the Word:
Romans 7:7-9What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid! Nay, I would not have known sin, but through the law; for I would not have known lust, except that the law had said, "Thou shalt not covet."But sin, taking occasion through the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence; for without the law sin was dead.For I was alive apart from the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died;

*Skala*:
Your answer was "by hearing the word"

Yet we know that multitudes hear the word, yet do not choose to come to Him. You did not answer my question.

My question is, the ones that DO choose to come to Him, do they do so because it was an effectual, gracious work of God?

Yes or no?

***have not heard back from the person***

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*Skala*:
All believers in Christ, who trust Christ, will be saved.

The question is, when a man believes in Christ, does God get the credit for that happening, or not?

Calvinism says "Yes"

Do you say "yes" also? If so, please explain how.

*Person* B:
Why is that Calvinists can't understand Rom.4:4-5 that faith is not a work and therefore no one gets credit for it? Do you claim credit for RECEVING a free gift. The one GIVING the gift gets the credit, you get the gift. But you have to RECEIVE it.
Faith is not a work therefore no one claims credit for having it.
Is that what Romans 4 says or not? Grace and works are opposed (Rom.11:6) but faith and grace go together (Rom.5:2) and faith is what man is responsible for.

*Skala*:
So basically, to the question "Does God get all the credit for your faith?', your answer is "no"?

*Person* B:
And where did I say that God doesn't get all the credit. Do you get ANY credit for receiving a gift?
The giver of the gift gets the credit, You get the gift. You must have reading problems, but then again, I never dealt with a Calvinist who didn't.

*Skala*:
You said, "The giver of the gift gets the credit,"

I agree Ed! But how does an unregenerate man who is "hostile towards God" and "who finds the gospel foolishness" come to be willing to receive the gift?

I am arguing that it's a miraculous work of grace on God's part that any at all become willing to receive the gift - not that man, in his natural state, somehow made himself willing.

*Person* B:
Even Calvin admitted we have to bring the faith.

*Skala*:
Yes he did, but the whole issue hinges on what's going on behind the curtain here. Man brings the faith, but the issue is, WHY does he bring the faith?

Because the man changed his own nature and inclined himself towards God, or because God was graciously working to effectually bring that sinner to faith, a pure work of undeserved grace.

When a sinner is willing to choose Christ for salvation, does he do so because of an effectual work of grace on God's part? Yes or no?

*Person* B:
Faith cometh by HEARING and hearing by the word of God. (Rom.10:17)The Bible teaches that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God, that one is saved by believing the word of God (Rom.10:17, 1Pe.1:23)

*Skala*:
Thank you for those passages, but you did not answer my question. I believe that faith is ultimately God's gift insofar as it's not the product of the unregenerate fallen nature, but the result of God's work of grace in "quickening" spiritually dead sinners who are blind and deaf and hostile to the things of God.

Therefore, to the question "Is faith ultimately the gift of God?", I would answer "yes." Would you?

Do you agree that a Christian's faith is ultimately the gracious work of God, and therefore, a gift of God?

Yes or no?

*Person* B:
Do you claim credit for RECEVING a free gift. The one GIVING the gift gets the credit, you get the gift. But you have to RECEIVE it.'
Now, where does it say that the one receiving the gift gets ANY credit?
Faith is something you have to provide, God provides the Grace. But God gets all the credit since faith is not a work.

Faith is not a work, so man cannot claim credit for having it.(Rom.4:4-5)

*Skala*:
I did not say faith was a work, I said it was man's responsibility to exercise faith, but he does so because it was God's gracious doing to bring that person to faith. Do you agree?

Let me ask you again: Is your coming to faith in Christ ultimately God's doing? You have yet to answer "yes" or "no".

I want an answer. I will even take the initiative here and give my answer:

Yes, my coming to faith in Christ was 100% God's doing, not my doing.

Can you say the same? Please answer.

*Person* B:
Grace is all of God. BELIEVE is what man must do. You must RECEIVE the gift and you do that by FAITH.
Now since faith is NOT a work, it doesn't negate grace, so your objections to man having to DO something (believe) are non-scriptural and HERESY.
You are making decisions every day to obey Christ or not BY FAITH (1Cor.5:7) And when you received Christ as your saviour YOU had to DO something, God didn't give you the faith, the faith came by hearing the word of God
Clear enough?

*Skala*:
Apparently I am not being clear, so I apologize. Let me be more specific. I do not deny that man has to DO something. Man *MUST* repent and believe to be saved. We both agree with that.

My question is, when a person chooses to repent and believe, does he do so because it was an effectual work of grace on the part of God to bring that person to faith and repentance?

If you're a believer, do you attribute the fact that you are such to God's doing? Yes or no?

I agree that man must receive the gift. My question all along is, when a person does choose to receive the gift, do they do so because it was an effectual work of grace on God's part?

In yet other words:

Man brings the faith, and exercises faith, but the question is, WHY does he bring it? Is it God's gracious doing that a man brings the faith? Yes or no?

*Person* B:
Man believes because God shows Him the truth with His words. It is God's grace that provides the WORDS to explain salvation (Ps.119:130, Rom.10:17, 1Pe.1:23, Jn.5:24)

*Skala*:
That's not the question I asked but thank you for those passages, I agree with what you said.

Now, could you answer yes or no to the question:

Are you a believer because it was a work of Grace on God's part to bring you to choose to embrace Christ in faith?

Yes or no?

*Person* B:
I am believer because God gave me the words to understand that I was a sinner on the way to hell and I needed a saviour and Christ was that saviour. Only a Calvinist could make that complicated.

*Skala*:
So, to the question "Is it completely God's doing that you came to faith in Christ?", your answer is "no"?

*Person* B:
Grace is always God initiating, man has to respond to that with faith. When you walk in faith, is that your choice or not.
Yes or no?

*Skala*:
I answer "yes!" Amen to that!

Now please answer my question, I feel that you have not answered with a simple yes or no, but instead have been rephrasing the question and then answering your own newly-phrased question.

Here is the question:

Was it completely God's gracious doing that you chose to respond to the gospel in faith?

Yes or no?

*Person* B:
Grace brings you to Christ and the Cross, faith is what you choose to do with
grace, accept it or reject it.
God doesn't give you the faith, He gives you the grace to have the faith.

*Skala*:
I agree! A man must accept it or reject it!

My question is, is it completely a gracious doing of God that any at all accept it?

Was it completely God's gracious doing that you chose to respond to the gospel in faith?

Yes or no?

*Person* B:
Grace brings you to Christ and the Cross, faith is what you choose to do with
grace, accept it or reject it.
God doesn't give you the faith, He gives you the grace to have the faith.

*Skala*:
I agree! You must accept it or reject it!

My question is, is it completely a gracious doing of God that any at all accept it? Yes or no?

*Person* B:
I told you that Grace is all of God, but we must respond with faith.
So what part of that don't you understand?

*Skala*:
I understand and agree with all of that! We must respond in faith to be saved!

The question is, was it completely God's gracious doing that any at all respond in faith?

Yes or no?

*Person* B:
Grace is God freely providing salvation, man's must take the free gift by faith. That is man's decision and God provides all men the ability to make that decision for or against the Gospel.

*Skala*:
Amen! I 100% agree. All men have the choice to accept or reject the gospel!

The question you have not answered is this:

Is it completely, 100% God's gracious doing that any at all accept the gospel? Yes or no?

*****have not heard back from this person****

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*Skala:*
you still did not answer my question with a simpe "yes" or "no", so let me ask again:

Is it 100%, completely God's doing, completely the gracious doing of God that any at all choose to come to Him?

Yes or no?

*Person* A:
Genesis 3:5-7for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof and ate, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he ate.And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; ...

Were their eyes truly open or rather blinded?

*Skala:*
Amen to that passage! But you still did not answer the question, so let me ask again:

Was it completely God's gracious doing that you came to faith in Jesus Christ?

Yes or no?

*Person A:*
It is not "yes" or "no". From the days of Adam and Eve, God created man with the ability to choose His Word or die. We both know what man choose then. God has not changed. He tells man to seek Him and then they will find Him. The Word does not say He forces any to seek Him. Rather the revealing of man's sin through the hearing of the Word reveals man's need for that Saviour.


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## ManleyBeasley (Feb 13, 2009)

Wow.


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## reformed trucker (Feb 13, 2009)

So much for a simple Yes or No, eh.

Talk about being to your presuppositions!

And the obligatory ad hominem attacks when cornered.

They need to to the DoG!

They probably think you are a who likes to 

Just my


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## cih1355 (Feb 13, 2009)

Do you know of any Arminians who actually answer a "Yes" without any qualification to the question, "When a sinner is willing to choose Christ for salvation, does he do so because of an effectual work of grace on God's part?".


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## ExGentibus (Feb 13, 2009)

That is my experience as well. Arminians never answered "yes" or "no" to my direct questions, but rephrased everything and then accused the Calvinist (me) of being unable to understand the simple words of Scripture. I've come to the conclusion that they really cannot answer "yes" or "no" because of their different understanding of the words "God's gracious work."

These are my findings:
1) Every time I mention the word "works" in relation to the act of "choosing Christ" (i.e. being born of the will of man) the conversation ends. It rings an alarm bell in their mind and their immediate reaction is of strenuous self-defense against the accusation. Instead, I now speak of "grace vs merit." This allows me to proceed to the next question.

2) When they answer "How can receiving a gift be a work?", I ask them: "Why did you accept that gift while the unbelievers keep rejecting it? Is it because you are smart, good, humble, and they are not? What prevents you from boasting in front of them?"

I cannot report any further findings because at that point for some reason the conversation usually stops abruptly.


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## SemperEruditio (Feb 13, 2009)

We must be talking to the same people. I started with members of my congregation, the ones who led Bible study and were "champions of industry." The same run around you received...heck the same we all receive. At first I would chase rabbits down all the different holes and I would leave frustrated and they vindicated. However once I would just stick to whether or not they answered the question and then rephrasing so that they would answer it I realized that our poor Arminian/Semi-Pelagian brothers/sisters cannot answer the question because it would be like hitting a self-destruct button on their theology.

I believe my previous pastor set me up and had me teach predestination and election at the Bible study. The look of confusion on the face of the people because when they would answer that _"yes, it is 100% God's work"_ that would lead to _"oh wait! 'No' We have to do something!....wait a second...then it was us and not God....I'm confused...this doesn't make sense..."_ A few individuals claimed that it was because I am Cuban and they are African-American that I would be open to giving someone else full authority?!?!?! A small group did have their eyes opened. After the Bible study we talked about it and they were golden. I was so encouraged that God had ripped the blinders...until they told the pastor that everything now in the Bible makes so much more sense. He dismantled their new appreciation for the DoG with poor philosophy and poorer logic but it worked. That Sunday I had asked them about getting together for Bible study or just some fellowship to continue the conversation. I was summarily shown the door. It was actually their backs. After months of being shunned I was told that they were very hurt that I would manipulate them in such a way.  Yeah it hurt.

One of the ones hurt later was my partner driving down to seminary. We got into it and that resulted in a shouting match. His words were something to the effect, _"I don't care that my philosophy and theology contradict each other! It's what I believe and no one is going to tell me that God sends people to hell!!_ We were not talking about predestination.


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## TimV (Feb 13, 2009)

> "Are you a believer because it was an effectual work of grace on the part of God to bring you to faith? Was it completely God's gracious doing that you came to faith in Christ?"



In a recent similar conversation it became clear that the Arminian view is very similar to the Roman Catholic view of Mary being a co-redeemer with Christ. And especially in Arminian Baptist circles that's there big proof that Roman Catholics can't be Christians. I asked how their view really differed from the RC view, since RC literature is clear that Mary is a co-redeemer in the same way that a Protestant person taking personal action to choose Christ is a co-redeemer.


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## ReformedChapin (Feb 13, 2009)

Welcome to my world. I usually get the response "I don't know" all I know is that I have to preach "Christ crucified." Or my favorite, we cannot understand the mysteries of God, this question is too devisive.


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## Rangerus (Feb 13, 2009)

Also proves most folks don't know what they believe nor why they believe it.


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## Galatians220 (Feb 13, 2009)

TimV said:


> > "Are you a believer because it was an effectual work of grace on the part of God to bring you to faith? Was it completely God's gracious doing that you came to faith in Christ?"
> 
> 
> 
> In a recent similar conversation it became clear that the Arminian view is very similar to the Roman Catholic view of Mary being a co-redeemer with Christ. And especially in Arminian Baptist circles that's there big proof that Roman Catholics can't be Christians. I asked how their view really differed from the RC view, since RC literature is clear that Mary is a co-redeemer in the same way that a Protestant person taking personal action to choose Christ is a co-redeemer.


 
That's very profound, Tim. The consequences of that are staggering.

It explains the explosion in megachurches, in CCM, in the need for revisions of the Bible every couple of years and so much more.

If we cannot put ourselves in the role of coredeemer, what do we have to sell to others? How can we make money and *get numbers* with "this Christian thing?" Where's it going to go for making celebrities?

What's one of the least popular verses in the Bible? John 3:30, "He must increase, but I must decrease."

Explains why our little church plant has 10 people sitting there at a service, but the Arminian deal we rent space in draws a couple thousand. Fortunately, and contrary to the world, the Lord does not measure success by numbers.

Margaret


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## Jimmy the Greek (Feb 13, 2009)

The issue boils down to one question. Why does one man believe and another not? 

Their answer has to be, it is something in the individual man that is the determining factor. Why? Because in their view, whatever God does, he does for all alike.

Scripture seems to indicate there is no difference in men. 1 Cor. 4:7 "For who maketh thee to differ from another?" Therefore it must be all of God. It is by _His doing _that anyone is in Christ Jesus (1 Corinthians 1:30).


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## ReformedChapin (Feb 13, 2009)

Gomarus said:


> The issue boils down to one question. Why does one man believe and another not?
> 
> Their answer has to be, it is something in the individual man that is the determining factor. Why? Because in their view, whatever God does, he does for all alike.
> 
> Scripture seems to indicate there is no difference in men. 1 Cor. 4:7 "For who maketh thee to differ from another?" Therefore it must be all of God. It is by _His doing _that anyone is in Christ Jesus (1 Corinthians 1:30).



I think that people now a days have a view that God is too incomprehensible hence don't even bother to try to understand the theological issues that arise such as this one. Very few focus on the importance of theology or to have a proper understanding of God. Many I know are just trying to avoid conflict which naturally arises from rigid (precise) theology although I will be the first one to admit that responses as "I am not an arminian" after the description of what an arminian is come largely from ignorance.


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## LadyFlynt (Feb 13, 2009)

*don't have time to read all of it at the moment, but:

When you hit the point where they pull the "Faith comes by hearing"...

"Faith comes by hearing the Word of God"

"So everyone that hears the Word of God receives faith?"

"No, only some"

"Then God failed?"

"No, it's man who brings the faith"

"But, I thought it came from the hearing of the Word?"

(generally at this point they will insist that man conjures it up out of themselves, because heaven forbid it should be some work of God....OR....they will admit the God prepared their hearts...let's continue with B )

"Well God prepared their heart first"

"So God had to inpart some form of Grace, the change of heart (or preparation if you insist), in order for them to have faith from the hearing of the Word?"

"Yes"

"So does God do this for everyone?"

"Yes"

"Then either EVERYONE has received that change/preparation, gets that faith, and is thus saved, OR God failed...because we know that not EVERYONE is going to be saved..."

continue on with this.


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## Tripel (Feb 13, 2009)

skala,
While I completely side with you on the topic you are debating with these people, I am also sympathetic to their responses. I love a good debate, but I do not like having to answer simple "yes or no" type questions. Some questions only need a "yes" or "no", but not all. 
When I hear someone say "Only answer with a 'yes' or 'no'--nothing else" I tend to question the person's motives. It sounds more like a trap than an attempt at gaining clarity. 

Let me rephrase it--If someone is truly interested in what I believe, he will accept more than a simple answer.


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## skala (Feb 13, 2009)

Hey thanks for the replies all! Very interesting observation about the whole co-redeemer thing. 

Tripel:



Tripel said:


> skala,
> While I completely side with you on the topic you are debating with these people, I am also sympathetic to their responses. I love a good debate, but I do not like having to answer simple "yes or no" type questions. Some questions only need a "yes" or "no", but not all.
> When I hear someone say "Only answer with a 'yes' or 'no'--nothing else" I tend to question the person's motives. It sounds more like a trap than an attempt at gaining clarity.
> 
> Let me rephrase it--If someone is truly interested in what I believe, he will accept more than a simple answer.




I perfectly understand what you're saying, hence the reason it was an "experiment"  I knew from the outset that it would be difficult to answer, that's precisely why I asked the question. In hopes that they would realize that they can't, with ease, give God 100% of the credit for salvation, so that they might take a step back and reevaluate what they believe.

It would have seriously made me personally think about my theology, back when I was not a Calvinist. Instead, I had to learn the hard way: by being smacked around by Spurgeon!


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## A5pointer (Feb 13, 2009)

You are relatively new in embracing the doctrines of grace. Over time you will probably find yourself having less of these frustrating conversations. You will likely start to surround yourself with people of like mind on this. You will also realize most evangelicals will not have an interest or engage you with responsible biblical examination. It will seem pointless to you to interact like this. But do keep your eyes open for the rare person who will truly be searching and is interested in this doctrinal discussion. Right or wrong, I think this has been the experience of many of us. There is an old saying that says new Calvinists should be locked up for a year.


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## cih1355 (Feb 13, 2009)

> The issue boils down to one question. Why does one man believe and another not?



If an Arminian does not want to admit that man is the determining factor of who receives salvation, then he will answer that question by saying, "I don't know."



> When they answer "How can receiving a gift be a work?", I ask them: "Why did you accept that gift while the unbelievers keep rejecting it? Is it because you are smart, good, humble, and they are not? What prevents you from boasting in front of them?"



The Arminian who thinks that he has nothing to contribute to his justification will answer, "I don't know", when he is asked, "Why did you accept that gift while the unbelievers keep rejecting it?". He doesn't want to admit that he is smarter or better than those who reject Christ so he will just say, "I don't know why I believe the gospel and others reject it.".


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