# Genesis 45:4-5



## heartoflesh (Jan 23, 2008)

[4] "And Joseph said to his brothers, “Please come near to me.” So they came near. Then he said: “I am Joseph your brother, whom you sold into Egypt. [5] But now, do not therefore be grieved or angry with yourselves because you sold me here; for God sent me before you to preserve life."

I read this in my daily reading a couple of days ago and a thought came to mind which I had never considered before. It seems like Joseph is in essence telling his brothers not to be concerned about their actions, as it was providence that made them do what they did. This seems to go against the belief that human agents are still responsible for their actions, regardless of providence. 

Your thoughts?


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## Barnpreacher (Jan 23, 2008)

Rick Larson said:


> [4] "And Joseph said to his brothers, “Please come near to me.” So they came near. Then he said: “I am Joseph your brother, whom you sold into Egypt. [5] But now, do not therefore be grieved or angry with yourselves because you sold me here; for God sent me before you to preserve life."
> 
> I read this in my daily reading a couple of days ago and a thought came to mind which I had never considered before. It seems like Joseph is in essence telling his brothers not to be concerned about their actions, as it was providence that made them do what they did. This seems to go against the belief that human agents are still responsible for their actions, regardless of providence.
> 
> Your thoughts?



*Genesis 50:19-20*, "_And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God? But as for you, ye thought evil against me; *but God meant it unto good*, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive_."

The brothers of Joseph were responsible for their evil actions against Joseph, but Sovereign God ordained it for good.

*Proverbs 19:21*, "_There are many devices in a man's heart; *nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand*_." 

*Daniel 4:35*, "_And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and *he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What does thou*_?"

Sovereign God is always in control and man is still responsible for his actions.


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## Amazing Grace (Jan 23, 2008)

Rick Larson said:


> [4] "And Joseph said to his brothers, “Please come near to me.” So they came near. Then he said: “I am Joseph your brother, whom you sold into Egypt. [5] But now, do not therefore be grieved or angry with yourselves because you sold me here; for God sent me before you to preserve life."
> 
> I read this in my daily reading a couple of days ago and a thought came to mind which I had never considered before. It seems like Joseph is in essence telling his brothers not to be concerned about their actions, as it was providence that made them do what they did. This seems to go against the belief that human agents are still responsible for their actions, regardless of providence.
> 
> Your thoughts?



This is exactly what Joseph was telling them. Joseph had a heart of compassion. He had so much trust and confidence in God that the fact concerning his brothers actions did not bother him in the slightest. He loved them still.. Oh how we can learn from Joseph when we are wronged by another.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 23, 2008)

Joseph is not saying that they were right to do evil because good came from it. He is, however, saying that, while they should be sorry for what they did, they should find comfort in the good that God brought forth from their wicked actions. Joseph could have let them have it, so to speak, as they no doubt deserved, but instead, shows mercy by pointing them to the wise and benevolent overruling providence of God, showing that God works all things to the good of them that love him (Rom. 8).

Fisher's Catechism:



> Q. 7.26. How does the decree of God extend to things naturally and morally good?
> 
> A. Effectively: because God is the author and efficient cause of all good, Phil 2:13.
> 
> ...


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## heartoflesh (Jan 23, 2008)

> Sovereign God is always in control and man is still responsible for his actions.



This is not disputed. What I'm wondering is if we should take this verse as approval to tell those who wrong us "don't be concerned about what you did, because it was part of God's plan".


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## Amazing Grace (Jan 23, 2008)

VirginiaHuguenot said:


> Joseph is not saying that they were right to do evil because good came from it. He is, however, saying that, while they should be sorry for what they did, they should find comfort in the good that God brought forth from their wicked actions. *Joseph could have let them have it, so to speak, as they no doubt deserved, but instead, shows mercy by pointing them to the wise and benevolent overruling providence of God, showing that God works all things to the good of them that love him (Rom. 8).*



Exactly Andrew


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## Contra_Mundum (Jan 23, 2008)

Joseph, like Christ much later, forgave the evil done to him, as part of his typological significance. Christ even asked *God* to forgive those who sinned in ignorance against him (which I think we have evidence of in the words of faith from the centurion: "Surely this man was the Son of God").

So also should we forgive those who sin against us, as we are charged in the Lord's Prayer.

But all men as persons under judgment must say with David to God: "Against THEE, only, have I sinned, and done this evil in THY sight." We may forgive, we should forgive, we must forgive. But we have no power to forgive or remit the sins of men from their divine account. Christ alone has that power on earth: "Son, thy sins be forgiven thee" (Mk. 2:5). The Pharisees understood this, and that's why they were indignant.

Let me add, that Joseph was dealing with fearful, grieving, and penitent men in his brethren. We can assure men of God's gospel favor when they are repentant--on the authority of his own promise, God will remit the sins of repentant sinners.


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## Barnpreacher (Jan 23, 2008)

Rick Larson said:


> > Sovereign God is always in control and man is still responsible for his actions.
> 
> 
> 
> This is not disputed. What I'm wondering is if we should take this verse as approval to tell those who wrong us "don't be concerned about what you did, because it was part of God's plan".



I see what you're saying. I missed you the first time around. I'm trying to juggle four or five things at once.

I don't believe we should ever excuse sin. If we do that then the salt has lost its savor. We should always reprove, rebuke and exhort.

I think in Genesis the brothers of Joseph were actually repentant for what they did. That's why Joseph handled the situation the way he did. However, very often in our lives the world will wrong us, and we can and should let them know that they are sinning against God even though we know God will work it together for our good. 

The difference between the brothers of Joseph and the world is that the world will never show godly sorrow for what they have done. That is why the Word of God teaches us to learn how to suffer rightly even when we are suffering for things we haven't done. See I Peter for example.


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## Wannabee (Jan 23, 2008)

One slight comment on Fisher's comments: God did not *permit *it. This has the propensity to render our understanding of God as reactive. God *meant *it... Regardless of our comfort zone, God is God and we cannot judge His actions according to the restraints He places upon us. He is proactive in every aspect of His creation. To claim otherwise is to humanize YHWH. Nowhere in Scripture is God ever said to stand by and let events take their own course which He later uses for His purposes.


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## Amazing Grace (Jan 23, 2008)

Barnpreacher said:


> Rick Larson said:
> 
> 
> > > Sovereign God is always in control and man is still responsible for his actions.
> ...





Barney, our first and formost approach should not be to reprove, rebuke and exhort and wait for repentance. To say the brothers were repentant is mere specualtion, hence the Holy Spirit saw fit to leave that out. Repentance is never the cause to give forgivenenss. Now to take a phrase from you, This is how the world forgives. Skin for skin, you hurt me, so you need to feel the pain you casued me, tell you harshly, then if you repent according to my satisfaction, then I will show forgiveness. If my repentance against God is what brings forgiveness, then I am most miserable. True forgiveness, Spirit wrought forgiveness is to do EXACTLY what Joseph did and in fact what Esau did. Remember how nervous Jacob was when he knew he had to meet Esau? Jacob had stolen Esau’s blessing and his birthright. And Esau hated him for it. He hated his brother so much, that he once even said he was going to kill him. After all these years of being apart, Jacob was coming home. And Esau was coming to meet him... with FOUR HUNDRED of his strongest men! 

1Then Jacob lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, (A)Esau was coming, and four hundred men with him. So he divided the children among Leah and Rachel and the two maids.

2He put the maids and their children in front, and Leah and her children next, and Rachel and Joseph last.

3But he himself passed on ahead of them and (B)bowed down to the ground seven times, until he came near to his brother.

* 4Then Esau ran to meet him and embraced him, and (C)fell on his neck and kissed him, and they wept. *


Jacob did not show repetance to Esau prior. But repented afterwards from the grace shown to him. This is the Power of Grace over Law. The other tidbit I want you to notice is who was there who saw this? Look at verse 7:

7Leah likewise came near with her children, and they bowed down; and afterward *Joseph* came near with Rachel, and they bowed down.

His son Joseph. Joseph witness first hand what it means to forgive those who least deserve it. I am sure the brothers knew what their dad did against their uncle. And they knew Esau was ticked off and thought this was their doom. This is another example of providence in Joseph's life and taught him true forgiveness when he was in the same boat. 

Until brother's and sister's in Christ understand this, they will NEvER understand grace,; unmerited favor. 

"For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His love toward us, in that, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life"

Look at what we are, Helpless, sinners, enemies. And what does Christ do? He dies for us without waiting for us to repent. Ah, but when the Spirit brings this home, we are broken and repentant.

Also, we read in I Peter 3:18, "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God."

Joseph knew this revelation. He had the Spirit of Christ. His is written in the book of Life!!!! And the whole irony is that he had forgiveness shown to His dad, from the one whom God did not chose, and that is Esau. How shameful we should feel that a reprobate shows more love than an elect...


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## Barnpreacher (Jan 23, 2008)

Amazing Grace said:


> Barney, our first and formost approach should not be to reprove, rebuke and exhort and wait for repentance. To say the brothers were repentant is mere specualtion, hence the Holy Spirit saw fit to leave that out. Repentance is never the cause to give forgivenenss. Now to take a phrase from you, This is how the world forgives. Skin for skin, you hurt me, so you need to feel the pain you casued me, tell you harshly, then if you repent according to my satisfaction, then I will show forgiveness. If my repentance against God is what brings forgiveness, then I am most miserable. True forgiveness, Spirit wrought forgiveness is to do EXACTLY what Joseph did and in fact what Esau did. Remember how nervous Jacob was when he knew he had to meet Esau? Jacob had stolen Esau’s blessing and his birthright. And Esau hated him for it. He hated his brother so much, that he once even said he was going to kill him. After all these years of being apart, Jacob was coming home. And Esau was coming to meet him... with FOUR HUNDRED of his strongest men!
> 
> 1Then Jacob lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, (A)Esau was coming, and four hundred men with him. So he divided the children among Leah and Rachel and the two maids.
> 
> ...



AG,

I certainly agree with what you are saying about grace. I don't think we're seeing this differently, but rather I didn't express myself well enough. Certainly I don't believe that we should harshly tell someone to repent according to our satisfaction before we forgive them. We are to reprove, rebuke and exhort with all LONGSUFFERING. I don't want people to feel pain if they wronged me. That's why I put I Peter in there as an example. My point is that the lost will not see that they wronged you, but that doesn't mean that you don't forgive them. Certainly you show them the grace of our Lord Jesus.

But I took Rick's question as being one of whether we should just ignore sin and "in the name of the providence of God" not call it what it is. The law of God is a schoolmaster to point us to Christ and the grace that is found in him. The world will never know what sin is if we don't point it out according to God's standard. 

Blessings to you, brother. And thanks for taking me back to my grade school days by calling me Barney.  Those were good times.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 23, 2008)

Wannabee said:


> One slight comment on Fisher's comments: God did not *permit *it. This has the propensity to render our understanding of God as reactive. God *meant *it... Regardless of our comfort zone, God is God and we cannot judge His actions according to the restraints He places upon us. He is proactive in every aspect of His creation. To claim otherwise is to humanize YHWH. Nowhere in Scripture is God ever said to stand by and let events take their own course which He later uses for His purposes.



I think that is abundantly clear if you read the Fisher's catechism in context; prior to this (and after) Fisher and Erskine speak of how God decrees all things that come to pass and even gives the example of Joseph's advancement in Egypt as evidence of such a marvellous thing that something that looks "accidental" to us is in fact an outworking of God's positive decree (7.22).


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## Amazing Grace (Jan 23, 2008)

Barnpreacher said:


> Amazing Grace said:
> 
> 
> > Barney, our first and formost approach should not be to reprove, rebuke and exhort and wait for repentance. To say the brothers were repentant is mere specualtion, hence the Holy Spirit saw fit to leave that out. Repentance is never the cause to give forgivenenss. Now to take a phrase from you, This is how the world forgives. Skin for skin, you hurt me, so you need to feel the pain you casued me, tell you harshly, then if you repent according to my satisfaction, then I will show forgiveness. If my repentance against God is what brings forgiveness, then I am most miserable. True forgiveness, Spirit wrought forgiveness is to do EXACTLY what Joseph did and in fact what Esau did. Remember how nervous Jacob was when he knew he had to meet Esau? Jacob had stolen Esau’s blessing and his birthright. And Esau hated him for it. He hated his brother so much, that he once even said he was going to kill him. After all these years of being apart, Jacob was coming home. And Esau was coming to meet him... with FOUR HUNDRED of his strongest men!
> ...





We are definatley closer than appeared prior... I always looked at Jospeh's brothers as knowing what they did was wrong. And I do agree that it would have been wrong for Joseph to speak kindly of their actions. "Thank you for throwing me in the well, and selling me" would be a most dreadful reaction!!! Call sin a sin, yet forgive with no strings.


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## Iconoclast (Jan 23, 2008)

Rick,
Your post has drawn out many good and instructive responses. This is a very rich portion of scripture. It brought several passages of scripture to mind which the other posts quickly pointed out.
Another verse that comes to mind is 1Pet4:8



> 8And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.


 As image-bearer's of God we are to forgive brethren who sin against us as an expression and manifestation of God's love working through us.Mt18:15-35
Lack of forgiveness, could be an indication of a lack of grace.
Joseph as a Godly man an a great type of Christ was looking past the fact of their past sin, in light of God's plan being further manifested through His Godly life and perserverance, even in light of being falsely imprisoned.

Likewise the 1Pet,4:8 comes in the context of Christians pursuing holiness in the midst of opposition and sin by the ungodly,as well as brethren who might sin against us. That is why in verse 7 he urges them to 'watch unto prayer".
We need grace and strength that is Spirit wrought in the heart to be able to obey the conduct that Peter points to, or that was evidenced in Joseph's life


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## Wannabee (Jan 25, 2008)

VirginiaHuguenot said:


> Wannabee said:
> 
> 
> > One slight comment on Fisher's comments: God did not *permit *it. This has the propensity to render our understanding of God as reactive. God *meant *it... Regardless of our comfort zone, God is God and we cannot judge His actions according to the restraints He places upon us. He is proactive in every aspect of His creation. To claim otherwise is to humanize YHWH. Nowhere in Scripture is God ever said to stand by and let events take their own course which He later uses for His purposes.
> ...



Thanks for the clarity.


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