# Beyond Hope?



## LarryCook (Aug 30, 2005)

excerpted from:

FINDING MY RELIGION 
Eleanor Wasson, author of "28,000 Martinis and Counting: A Century of Learning, Living and Loving" shares her life
David Ian Miller, Special to SF Gate

Monday, August 29, 2005

Click Here for article

the set up....


> Most people don't live as long as Eleanor Wasson. Even fewer of them live as well or accomplish as much.
> 
> At the age of 97, Wasson has devoted her life to social and political causes of various kinds, like setting up volunteer organizations in the United States and abroad, organizing a museum exhibit on reincarnation at the California Museum of Science and Industry in Los Angeles and fighting against the spread of nuclear weapons. She is a connector, someone who has brought together business leaders, academics, actors and activists in countless efforts over the years.
> 
> ...



and her beliefs...



> *How would you characterize your views on spirituality these days? *
> 
> I believe in reincarnation. And I believe that we keep coming back here to live and learn. We choose our own parents and the situations in which we want to learn. And we are here to learn obedience, charity and compassion and all the golden rules -- the greatest of which is love. And we keep doing this until we've learned enough. It may be a million years. After which time we don't have to come back here anymore.
> 
> ...



Wow, sounds like she's got it all together....I can't find any holes here. I mean, how could I? She bases her beliefs on instruction that she received from an unnamed "spiritual teacher". 

My question: Have any of you personally experienced the conversion of a person of advanced age who has spent their entire life in unbelief? If so, I would appreciate hearing their story from your perspective. I am beginning to think that when a person gets to this point God has long since turned them over to themselves and they are beyond the hope of conversion. Am I wrong?

thanks,
LC


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## RamistThomist (Aug 30, 2005)

> It's based on what I learned from a spiritual teacher many years ago.



In other words, my infallibility standard is "I believe what I believe because someone just as fallible (unmentioned premise) told me so."

[Edited on 8--30-05 by Draught Horse]

[Edited on 8--30-05 by Draught Horse]


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## RamistThomist (Aug 30, 2005)

Sorry, I didn't answer the question.


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## LarryCook (Aug 30, 2005)

Funny, I didn't see this until I just went back and it jumped out at me.


> How would you characterize your views on spirituality these days?
> 
> I believe in.....
> And I believe that........
> ...



Psalm 14:15 The simple believes everything,
but the prudent gives thought to his steps. 

2 Timothy 1:12-13 ...which is why I suffer as I do. But I am not ashamed, *for I know whom I have believed*, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me. *Follow the pattern of the sound words *that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.


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## RamistThomist (Aug 30, 2005)

I noticed all that. Just let them keep talking and they will eventually hang themselves. If you give the unbeliever enough rope, they will eventually wrap it around their neck.


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## LarryCook (Aug 30, 2005)

Jacob, 

Funny thing is, you can come back at them from a carnal position, claim anything you want based on whatever you want and they'll validate it for you! Just so long as it isn't from the one, true, living God. 

I learned from Whitefield today that our hearts aren't _at_ enmity with God, they _are_ enmity with God. Don't have to look very far to find it these days!

Larry


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## Anton Bruckner (Aug 30, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> 
> 
> > It's based on what I learned from a spiritual teacher many years ago.
> ...


 : talk about having faith.


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## Robin (Aug 30, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LarryCook_
> Jacob,
> 
> Funny thing is, you can come back at them from a carnal position, claim anything you want based on whatever you want and they'll validate it for you! Just so long as it isn't from the one, true, living God.
> ...



 Larry! However, I'd never lose hope for this person. We are expressly instructed to "make disciples". That would mean a fair bit of teaching and social discomfort. I would (and have done) ask someone like this HOW do they know xyz? I would not take-on responsibility to refute them...the burden of proof is on them. So, in as nice a way as possible, I'd ask "how do you know xxxx". 

This happened last week with a senior person (step-mom-in-law.) She prides herself in knowing everything - and stated "they don't know who wrote the Bible" and related skeptisms. All I did was: first, listen very patiently and considerately (hard to do!); then after she was all done, I posed the question. At that point, game was a foot - the upshot, she was NOT happy that I dared oppose her - and more unhappy to hear of the load of evidences to contradict her. But all this can be a very good sign - because the human heart hates God. When the Truth hits, most times it won't be a pretty-sight. I pray that her vexation leads to repentence.

Let us never doubt the Gospel's power in the face of a hard-heart.



Robin


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## LarryCook (Aug 30, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Robin_
> 
> Let us never doubt the Gospel's power in the face of a hard-heart.
> 
> ...



I absolutely concur with you....If it is God's will that the heart in question would be renewed. As we know, we're not looking for people with E-L-E-C-T stenciled across their forehead. So we just keep laying out the truth, at least to the extent that the circumstances allow, in love and and out of obedience. It sounds like that is what you're doing with your s-m-i-l (maybe conversion will add the "e"!).

We'll pray for her conversion.

LC


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## rgrove (Sep 8, 2005)

> _Originally posted by LarryCook_My question: Have any of you personally experienced the conversion of a person of advanced age who has spent their entire life in unbelief? If so, I would appreciate hearing their story from your perspective. I am beginning to think that when a person gets to this point God has long since turned them over to themselves and they are beyond the hope of conversion. Am I wrong?


The closest I can speak to is my grandfather. He was a lifelong RC, but had no outward evidence of true conversion. Rituals were really important to him. We could never speak about spiritual things because I wasn't RC and that ended the conversation right there. But as he was dying his defenses started coming down little by little. The last time I spoke to him I was able to go through the gospel with him. He even repeated the verses after me. Towards the end he was quiet looking straight ahead and I asked him what he was thinking of. He said "Heaven". I said that was a good thing to be thinking about and asked him what he felt about it. He said that he felt like he was on the outside looking in. Possibly the worst words I've ever heard in my life. I went through the gospel again and urged him to trust in Christ alone for the forgiveness of his sins, but he never made the step while I was there. That was on Sunday evening. He died later that week. I had hoped to see him again, but I won't know his end until mine comes as well. Was he beyond hope? Don't know, but I know I'm still responsible to stand in front of people and make them climb over me before they jump off the cliff into everlasting darkness and that's what I'll continue to faithfully do when the opportunity arises Lord willing.

Yours in Christ,
Ron


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## VictorBravo (Sep 8, 2005)

Larry, 

This sounds very much like my mother and sister. It grieves me.

My mother was raised a Lutheran; her father was a pastor. She taught me to pray rote prayers and held a sort of magical faith. Now, in her 70s, she is a full blown new-ager. She doesn't believe in sin and believes that God is in everything. She plays with crystals and has had life readings (reincarnation reviews) done for all of her children. 

She is such a sweet person, but hard in her heart. At the end of a dinner one night, when asked why she believed what she did, she said "I know it in my heart."

The next question was blunt: "How do you know that what is in your heart is not evil?"

The gathering ended abruptly. My sister said, "That ruins a nice dinner." We now hardly speak at all, except for things like the garden and the weather. 

But they know I pray for them every day.

Vic


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## rgrove (Sep 8, 2005)

It's a dreadful thing to have to try and share the gospel in the family. Especially with a parent. My father and brother are completely lost and have no hope of salvation if they died right now. Conversation with them hasn't helped yet. I was able to get my brother to come to church when we had a visiting preacher who was doing a gospel presentation (thief on the cross) and it was to no effect. Slept through most of it... Conversation afterward he told me he was good with God and had no worries. He's a recovering heroin addict and alcaholic and has had too much of the "spiritual" kind of treatment centers. He was most impressed with American Indians in a prayer meeting with them than anything else to date. Even had a prayer to "The Great Spirit" or somesuch above his bed for a while. Mom is a nominal RC. Conversation is always pretty tense when these things come up. But I won't consider them "beyond hope" until they draw their last breaths denying Christ all the way to the end.


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