# Antidepressant pills



## Barnpreacher (Jan 30, 2008)

I wanted to start a new thread on this topic. I took this quote of JDWiseman's from the thread "Can a Christian be demon possessed?" I think this is a tremendously well thought out post that I agree with completely. But I do have some questions that I would like to bring up.



> In my opinion this is a very intricate topic, and one that needs to be handled carefully. To be frank and blunt, I think there are two extremes that need to be avoided:
> 
> 1) Those who were saved out of a background laden with the occult, or any other regenerate person (regardless of their background) who has had unusual attacks or harassments from demonic entities, can, in my opinion, allow their experiences to puff them up; they can act as if they have the "real insight", a real "gnosis" that others don't have, and that others "simply can't understand".
> 
> ...



What about those that have been helped by pills? Does that mean that they were not being oppressed by Satan? What caused the pills to help them? Certainly pills cannot replace the power of God's word at work, so how do these pills actually help some people?

I also understand that doctors like to hand these pills out like candy today, and I am not encouraging that. But if chemical imbalances are real, then are we being fair to Christians making them feel guilty for trying to let these pills help them? When we get headaches, what do we do? We pop tylenol or aleve. What's the difference?

I've been back and forth on this issue for many years. Sometimes I think one should stay completely away from these pills, but then yet I have seen these pills help some people close to me. Now granted, I would never encourage that person to put their hope and trust in a pill over God. But if we're not careful we could be doing the same thing when we take an aspirin, or high blood pressure medicine, or get a flu shot etc.

Thoughts?


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## Pergamum (Jan 30, 2008)

God be praised for pills!


Many factors involved in depression are very physical, sickness, lack of exercise, an environment that is noisy dark or cramped, too much stress. The best remedy for these are physical causes; get to a quiet place, an uncramped place, emove stress, get some exercise and get well. For some people, their chemicals shift due to life cycles, pregnancy, etc, and a chemical correctivecan help (i.e. a pill).

Much depression is linked to clear physical causes and medication is a blessing for these. No need to feel guilty.


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## Mushroom (Jan 30, 2008)

This whole issue is one of great consternation to me for the following anecdotal reason: Had a very close friend, known for 20 years, who had accompanied me on the search for truth, professed faith, was baptised, came to a reformed view of scripture over time, but endured many struggles. He had lost a leg to cancer at 18, and had been exposed to some pretty powerful chemo, and also had real insanity in his family. The man would come under the blackest clouds of depression for which he had no explanation. The conditions of his life would be relatively good, then he would just end up on the couch hiding from everyone. Finally, about 2 years ago, he came to the conclusion that there must be a chemical component to all this, and with mine and his family's encouragement, saw a psychiatrist who put him on Prozac. It seemed to help him immensely. He was no longer frozen by dark clouds, was able to interact well at work, and became very positive in his outlook. Then he became increasingly confident, even conceited, began to seem to think the world was his oyster so to speak. First real bad event was that he stole a large amount of money from me through deceit and connivery, then revealed that he'd been having an affair at work, pretended to repent of that to convince his estranged wife to take him back, regained her confidence and tricked her into signing on to all kinds of new debt for cars and such, and walked away leaving her and their 4 kids (3 still at home) to fend for themselves. All along he has blamed his behavior on the Prozac.

I don't know what this event says about Prozac, if anything. It may be that Prozac had nothing to do with his sudden complete turning from all that he claimed to care about. Perhaps this was simply what Paul was talking about here:


> 1Ti 5:24 The sins of some men are conspicuous, going before them to judgment, but the sins of others appear later.


But I can tell you that I would never have expected this behavior of him in the past, and the changes in his personality occured after being on Prozac. Perhaps he had always despised God, but had feared the consequences he would face if he were to do the things he really wanted. Maybe the Prozac just numbed the fear. At any rate, it has made me very leery of all these seratonin-affecting drugs.


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## TaylorOtwell (Jan 30, 2008)

I read some helpful things from Richard Baxter a while back on this topic... here are some of the sections I remember finding most helpful:

*Section 8: *Help for those who depressed

*Section 9: *Duties of friends and relatives of those who are depressed

*Section 10: *Medical care for those who are depressed

Below section 10 you will find a editorial comment on Baxter's medical views (his knowledge of how the body works was obviously more primitive than our understanding)

*Entire Article: *Cure of Melancholy and Overmuch Sorrow, by Faith


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## Ravens (Jan 30, 2008)

Rev. Barnhart,

I thought I would attempt to set forth my position on this a bit more carefully, in case this thread takes off. I only touched on medication briefly in that post because the thread itself was on demons, and the havoc that they can wreak in the life of a believer. I am not making a blanket statement that pills are never necessary. However, I think I am comfortable in my opinion that many antidepressants, psychotropics, etc., aim to lop off the heads of a hydra without burning the root and killing the beast. And I wouldn't even restrict the causes of mental illnesses to demonic entities. Human sin, false doctrine, and false beliefs can also play a part in the ultimate destruction and degradation of a human mind.

I do not envy the role of a pastor in trying to determine or evaluate whether a person is suffering from biological imbalance, error in their cognitive structure of beliefs, pangs of conscience and Fatherly chastening, or demonic and Satanic harassment. I'm not in any way trying to suggest that the issues are simple. They are very complex.

I also see the force of your analogy to physical medication for headaches and what not. For my part, the issue with antidepressants, psychotropics, etc., is that the _line_ between the "mind" and the "spirit" is so very thin. I know that we are not Gnostics, and I know that we will be clothed in glorified bodies forever. I know that this body, in some sense, is "me". I am a unified whole. Nevertheless, I think most people on this board would be able to draw a fast and easy distinction between their foot and their soul, or their hand and their soul. Even the word "soul" is itself problematic. I'm sure there are people on here who exegetically take that merely as "life". So at the end of the day, we have this handful of words, "spirit", "soul", "self", "mind", "psyche", "ego", that we deal with it, and its a lot more difficult to draw a line of demarcation between the "brain" and the spirit-soul-self, than it is to draw a line between the ankle and the spirit-soul-self.

If that line could be effectively and Biblically drawn, then I think the solution to this whole question would be easier. So I suppose I'm not denying in principle that medications can and should be used. I guess I just have a large amount of skepticism as to how we can distinguish between the brain and the spirit of a man.

That being said, I also think that there can be "structural" causes of mental illness. That is, if your mind is an infrastructure of many beliefs, each of them forming pillars, rails, scaffolding, etc., if you have ingested many false beliefs, lies, false religion, etc., then your mind will of necessity grate against the objective reality of God's world, and there will be psychic friction. 

For example: What happens to a person when they participate in Satan's Inversion. That's how I think of Satan's work on this planet and in human beings. He seeks to invert everything about God's world and God's order. Men marrying men; women slaughtering their children; the chain of "authority" from serpent -> Eve -> Adam, instead of Adam -> Eve -> animals. We see this in false religions. "Everything is _maya_; everything is illusion." 

That thought seems "trippy" to most adolescent young adults studying Hinduism and the Upanishads, but in reality its a proposition of the Inversion that will destroy their mind. No person ingests that thought and takes it seriously; hence the oft-quoted quip of Buddhists looking both ways before they cross the street. People in America who read Eastern philosophy don't doubt that they have a mother and father to visit; they don't doubt that their friends are really there; they don't doubt that their bodies are real; they "know" that they aren't living in a computer simulation simply because God has hardwired those "properly basic beliefs" into their spirit-mind. 

But they accept that because it gives them a perceived liberty and autonomy. All that to say this: What happens when they really start to believe that one day? What happens when they lose all ability to trust the ground that they walk on, the doors that they see, the people speaking to them? What happens when the demonic philosophy they toy with becomes the backbone of their epistemology? Its a practical solipsism that many people would label schizophrenia. Maybe there are even some biological cursors that would take place under the extreme stress of believing that you and you alone existed, and everything else was the result of your will, and that everything reflected you.

Solipsism is, in a sense, man receiving what he has always wished for, namely, that everything be about him, and yet when he receives it, he is, for all intents and purposes, in Hell.

The same thing is true of the yin-yang. People ingest it and think that there is a core of darkness in all light, and a core of light in all darkness. Really? Think about what that will do to the human mind when it comes to actually believe that, fundamentally, child molestation and summer-time walks, or family dinners, are of the same essence.

Think about the minds of America: The minds of men are steeped in television and video games as they grow up in broken families. They are out of touch with even the grand rhythms of nature. The rising and setting of the sun no longer determines the rising and setting of people. We don't go outside. We are unfamiliar with rain cycles and agricultural cycles. The minds of young men are bathed in a steady dose of free p0rnography from the time they are twelve and thirteen and have a computer. They are taught the truths of evolution, that everything has no meaning, that there is no meaning, that they are an accident, that good and evil is simply an illusion, that men should be with men, and women with women, and children and the elderly should be done away with. Then they take this mindset and start reading Eastern philosophy. "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" Seems so deep and profound, when in reality it is just demonic irrationality aiming to make men as irrational and imbalanced as possible. Maybe then they read Burroughs or Derrida and lose all confidence in language altogether. Augment that with various psychedelic, consciousness-expanding drugs and concourse with spirits, and you have a significant portion of the American populace, if not in yesteryear, at least today.

The endgame of this demonic strategy and human sin is to make the mind like a soaking wet paper towel. It might be able to hold a couple of pennies, but eventually its going to tear. And the mind can only ingest and live and breathe in so much foolishness and sin before it eventually tears.

I realize I'm speaking to extreme cases. To get back to the heart of this thread, I think many modern Americans, regardless of the root causes, would look at such a person whose mind had torn and ripped right down the middle, and was just a fractured mess, and trust the DSM-IV that this was just "schizophrenia" or something of the like. 

"Naming" something has power. God created and gave names. Adam and Eve were to give names to the animals. We give a "name" that really just means "split mind" to some horrible remnants of humanity we have encountered, and it gives us a sense of assurance that we have diagnosed and contained that insanity. 

Now, maybe there are chemical markers once a mind has been ripped, or fallen apart. Maybe the serotonin is all out of balance and warped. My only point is, what's the *root cause*? *Why* are the chemicals so messed up? 

Now, maybe some medications can and do rebalance the neural net. But I imagine that in some cases that would be similar to the house "being swept" without a new Guest moving in, and the latter case of that person may well be worse than the first.

Or take demons. Perhaps everything I've said so far has been hogwash. Yet, moving on to demons, I do think that we see a bit of "Reformed Deism" in America today. Perhaps this is an overreaction to Pentecostalism and the charismatic movement; we so closely associate "special revelation" with "miracles", and then so closely associate "miracles" with "demons", since they are both supernatural, that in our rejection of the charismatic movement, we practically reject demons also.

Personally, I don't think the Christian church has ever failed to take these entities very seriously. It would seem as if even the Puritans took them far more seriously than we Christians on the other side of the Industrial Revolution do.

Gurnall speaks of Satan's servants who lie on his breast, just like John rested in the bosom of Christ; I believe William Ames spoke of the devil working wonders to impress some of his servants; I'm sure Cotton Mather had a different opinion of demonic workings than many on this board.

And if you know people in the drug culture, in neo-paganism, in Wicca, in Asatru, there are things that go on, and experiences that happen. There is "traffick" between humans and demonic entities. Leaving aside those involved in that, demons are always shown to be the enemies of the saints. What happened to the man in the Corinthian church when he was "turned over" to Satan? What happened when Satan "sifted Peter" as wheat? What is it to wrestle in hand to hand combat? What is it to battle a roaring lion, without ever taking one's armour off? 

What kind of spiritual force could smite a godly body with sores, bring fire from heaven, and turn staffs into serpents? And I submit that if God did not constantly protect His creation, and His chosen people especially, that the whole fabric of the world could be laid waste. So if people come into the church, and they seem suspiciously like Saul when he was tormented by an evil spirit, or like Nebuchadnezzar when he had lost his mind, or like the Gadarene demoniac, then I submit that the ministry of the Word might well be the best weapon and agent of healing, and not medications that deal with the fruit of the struggle.

And there are other causes. We suppress the truth in unrighteousness. We are all hounded by a smitten and wounded conscience. How much of the mental imbalance is due to guilt?

I'm just typing stream-of-thought. Maybe I should avoid that. I realize there isn't really a structure and flow to this post. My only point is, there are many causes of mental imbalance, and many times it would be wise to seek for the root of the problem.

How many Christian people suffering from extreme depression are watching filthy Hollywood productions on Saturday, going to church Sunday morning, and watching NFL football on the Sabbath? How many are making deep perusals in the word? How many are willing to combat this ennui and darkness with fasting. Christ even said, "This kind cometh not out but by fasting and prayer..." Surely there is a place for such. 

At the end of the day, if it was between giving up on life, and taking medication, then I would completely and totally recommend medication. But before I did that, I would make sure that they were:

a) Getting a good dose of God's creation. There is something in the human soul that feeds on Beauty. Psalm 19 and Romans 1:20 come to mind. We need exposure to the heavens, we need the songs of birds, we need stiff breezes, we need exercise, we need to walk.

b) Dealing faithfully with sin, and seeking to be rid of it. If they were consistent Sabbath breakers, or continually gave in to p0rnography, or had some other area in which God might be dealing with them, then I would at least suggest that this might be a Fatherly chastening to goad them on to be vigilant in their war with sin.

c) Willing to at least put up a spiritual fight. I would want to at least spend some time in prayer, memorizing the word, singing Psalms in the morning to Elohim; would this person spend some extra time in prayer? Would they perhaps fast? Would the church fast or pray with them?

And if those means were diligently and faithfully applied, and their life was falling apart, then I wouldn't be opposed to medications. I just think that medications often mask the root cause of things, be in the noetic effects of sin, the effects of false doctrine, or demonic opposition.

And it is particularly keen to me, because there were times in my life when I probably could have been locked up, but God has been gracious in granting me a functioning psyche, and I realize that drugs, demonic lies, and the fierce assault of demons, who can send sensations and chills into your spirit and body, and who can plunge a mind into a world of lunacy... well, I know they are real. And I know that human pills wouldn't have done a thing for me. When you realize that you are a dark, miserable worm that is surrounded by malevolent beings of incredible power (which is the plight of natural man, c.f. Ephesians 2:1-3), then mental stress is the only natural result. 

And I just have a passion for people to know that Christ is the Light of the World, that He is the Word that gave structure and form to the Kosmos at the beginning, that in Him all things hold together, that He is Wisdom, and that He can actually enter into your personal life, your own segment of reality, and "make true" the promises of the Scripture, and reproduce the Life-bringing, Spirit-pouring restorations of human beings that we see in Scripture.

The Son of God was manifested to destroy the works of the devil.

That being said, I now realize, Rev. Barnhart, that this was a complete tangent. So as I've said before, I'm not necessarily against "drugs for the mind"* in principle*, though I still have reservations. I also hope that I do *not* have an inordinate passion for demons, and the existence thereof. 

I have just seen a strong strain of practical disbelief in the reality and working of demonic entities in the real world. And I might very well be wrong, but I see that position as woefully and tragically incorrect.

Anyhow. I'm sure I did more to muddy the waters, when I had set out to clarify them.

Apparently that's how I roll.



Blessings!


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## Barnpreacher (Jan 30, 2008)

Dear Brother,

God has blessed you with a major gift of spiritual wisdom if you could sit down and put that post together in one sitting.

I apologize for putting you on the spot by opening this thread with your post. I wasn't calling you into question, but rather I wanted to further expound on some things. That's why I opened up a new thread.

I want you to know that not only did I agree with your first post completely, but your last post may have been one of the top posts ever on the PB. Keep using that wisdom for him, brother.


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## Ravens (Jan 30, 2008)

You're much too kind, brother. I didn't mean to give the impression that you had put me on the spot with this thread. I just wanted to clarify a few things. But I think I did the exact opposite. 



It is a difficult issue, and I don't imagine that I have it all figured out. It touches on the constitution of the human being, dichotomy-trichotomy, how the spiritual faculty interacts with the brain, the relationship that demons have to unbelievers, the relationship that demons have to believers, the precise meaning of possession, the noetic effects of sin, the noetic effects of a fallen conscience, and the noetic effects of suppressing the truth in unrighteousness; to reach a solution one would have to carefully sift through all of those, and it would help if one were conversant in neuroscience also; then, to beat it all, you have the multitude of personal experiences that _everyone_ has, whether they came from a demonic/occult laden environment, or whether they never had any such past, but now use antidepressants to cope with daily life; then you have people whose lives have been broken by suicide in extended family, and the weightiness of how human and tragic and close-to-home all of this is makes it tremendously difficult. I couldn't imagine adding on the responsibility of being a spiritual overseer and shepherd in all of this, adding responsibility on top of responsibility.

So I want to tread carefully because there are so many people who are touched by these issues, and that on many levels. 

I just type what I type because I have a heart for people coming out of Mark 5 environments, and want them to know that there is a Lord of Light, Christ Jesus, who is more than able to deliver them from not one demon, and not seven demons, but a legion of demons, and even able to bind the strong man himself, crush his head, and cast him into Gehenna one day.

Blessings brother!


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## Ravens (Jan 30, 2008)

This really is somewhat unrelated to the o.p. on this thread, but I've always found this chapter of Chesterton's _Orthodoxy_ to be thought-provoking and insightful. It doesn't necessarily touch on the medical issue, but it does give poignant insights into the mind of madness. Here's the link:

The Maniac

Obviously I'm not giving a blanket endorsement to Chesterton, what with his Catholicism and anti-Calvinism. But that chapter is worth reading. His last paragraph is more insightful as to the utter fear and dread of a solipsistic prison, and I've never seen anything written that equals it:



> Of course it is not only of the materialist that all this is true. The same would apply to the other extreme of speculative logic. There is a sceptic far more terrible than he who believes that everything began in matter. It is possible to meet the sceptic who believes that everything began in himself. He doubts not the existence of angels or devils, but the existence of men and cows. For him his own friends are a mythology made up by himself. He created his own father and his own mother. This horrible fancy has in it something decidedly attractive to the somewhat mystical egoism of our day. That publisher who thought that men would get on if they believed in themselves, those seekers after the Superman who are always looking for him in the looking-glass, those writers who talk about impressing their personalities instead of creating life for the world, all these people have really only an inch between them and this awful emptiness. Then when this kindly world all round the man has been blackened out like a lie; when friends fade into ghosts, and the foundations of the world fail; then when the man, believing in nothing and in no man, is alone in his own nightmare, then the great individualistic motto shall be written over him in avenging irony. The stars will be only dots in the blackness of his own brain; his mother’s face will be only a sketch from his own insane pencil on the walls of his cell. But over his cell shall be written, with dreadful truth, “He believes in himself.”



That's the mindset I was in at one point in life, and I believe that is the "end-game" that Nietzsche and Eastern philosophy, along with other things, can eventually evoke.


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## JBaldwin (Jan 30, 2008)

Joshua, 

I believe you have hit upon an issue that has been seriously overlooked, and you have said what I have been thinking on the subject for a long time. To be specific you said: 



> Now, maybe there are chemical markers once a mind has been ripped, or fallen apart. Maybe the serotonin is all out of balance and warped. My only point is, what's the root cause? Why are the chemicals so messed up?
> 
> Now, maybe some medications can and do rebalance the neural net. But I imagine that in some cases that would be similar to the house "being swept" without a new Guest moving in, and the latter case of that person may well be worse than the first.



There is truth to what you say, and I speak from personal experience. So many of my own problems with depression over the years have been solved (praise God!) not with drugs, but with a hefty dose of God's working in my life through His Word and personal repentance. I thank God for a friend who advised me many years ago to never take a pill that would dull my senses and make me less able to listen to God's Spirit. Whether she was right or not, I don't, know. But what I do know is that I listened to her advice and stayed away from medication, and it forced me to take my problems with depression to the Lord.


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## VictorBravo (Jan 30, 2008)

JDWiseman said:


> That's the mindset I was in at one point in life, and I believe that is the "end-game" that Nietzsche and Eastern philosophy, along with other things, can eventually evoke.



Powerful stuff, Mr. Wiseman. I once was at that point too. God is indeed gracious and sovereign.

Reading your longer post above reminded me of Owen's Volume 6 on indwelling sin.


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## Pilgrim (Jan 30, 2008)

I am convinced that long draughts from something like Watson's _A Divine Cordial_ aka _All Things For Good_ will suffice for most Christians.


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## Quickened (Jan 30, 2008)

Barnpreacher said:


> Dear Brother,
> 
> God has blessed you with a major gift of spiritual wisdom if you could sit down and put that post together in one sitting.
> 
> ...



I really agree with Barnpreacher here. That post was of the highest standards and i want to personally say thanks for taking the time to write that out. I find it insightful and will probably be rereading that and pondering that myself.

Again thanks!


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## beej6 (Feb 1, 2008)

I may be the only Reformed psychiatrist on the planet <smile>.

I'm basically in agreement with Joshua. The most insidious side effect of any of the psychotropic meds is the dulling of the senses (as mentioned above) or more specifically the dulling of the emotions. This needs to be monitored carefully, preferably with the help of someone close to whomever is on the medications. (We of all folk should know the possibility that we may be ourselves wrong about how we are "really doing"!)

On the other hand, let's not give too much credit to such medicines neither. It's a pretty high bar to ascribe to a medicine a complete personality change or absolution of responsibility. It can happen of course but it should be rare.


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## Gesetveemet (Feb 1, 2008)

I was on a anti-depressant during a forty-eight week interferon treatment.
The *interferon was quite grueling* that causes some people to cry over nothing,
have fits of rage and anger. Many people are unable to endure.
Praise God for medicine and I still undetectable still today (hep C).

I don't know who to attach this reply to.


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