# Did they vote in the Hebrew Theocratic Republic?



## RamistThomist (Jul 18, 2015)

Sometimes when one discusses which political organization (monarchy, republic, democracy, mob rule, oligarchy) is best, some will say that the only appropriate model is a theocratic Republic like that from Moses. While it is true that there was representation in Moses' model, was it the type of representation that we use (and here I have in mind the 21st century American system) today? In choosing the "leaders of Israel" or even a Judge, did people vote and were the votes tallied? Or did some elders choose guys to go represent others?


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## Peairtach (Jul 18, 2015)

What's best for one people may not be good for another people. 

Look what happened in Iraq when they tried to fly democracy in.

Therefore Scripture leaves it as an open question.


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## RamistThomist (Jul 18, 2015)

Peairtach said:


> What's best for one people may not be good for another people.
> 
> Look what happened in Iraq when they tried to fly democracy in.
> 
> Therefore Scripture leaves it as an open question.



I agree and I think that was Calvin's position as well. All forms of government have strengths (except maybe modern democracy) and weaknesses. I was merely examining the claim that the ancient Hebrew Theocratic Tribal Republic had a voting system similar to that of modern America.


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## Philip (Jul 18, 2015)

ReformedReidian said:


> All forms of government have strengths (except maybe modern democracy)



Modern democracy is certainly preferable to living in North Korea or China. Say what you like about it, but it does allow one to speak one's mind and to not have to live in a cloud of smog.


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## RamistThomist (Jul 18, 2015)

Philip said:


> ReformedReidian said:
> 
> 
> > All forms of government have strengths (except maybe modern democracy)
> ...



I agree. Perhaps I should not have spoken thus.


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## bookslover (Jul 18, 2015)

Moses was instructed by God to choose leaders from the tribal elders. Voting is a fairly modern political concept.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jul 19, 2015)

Edersheim commenting on Exodus:

The “heads” of those clans and families were their chiefs; those of the tribes, “the princes.”17 These twelve princes were “the rulers of the congregation.”18 By the side of these rulers, who formed a hereditary aristocracy, we find two classes of elective officials,19 as “representatives” of “the congregation.”20 These are designated in Deut. 29:10, as the “elders” and the “officers,” or, rather, “scribes.” Thus the rule of the people was jointly committed to the “princes,” the “elders,” and the “officers.”21 The institution of “elders” and of “scribes” had already existed among the children of Israel in Egypt before the time of Moses. For Moses “gathered the elders of Israel together,” to announce to them his Divine commission,22 and through them he afterwards communicated to the people the ordinance of the Passover.23 The mention of “scribes” as “officers” occurs even earlier than that of elders, and to them, as the lettered class, the Egyptian taskmasters seem to have entrusted the superintendence of the appointed labours of the people.24 From the monuments of Egypt we know what an important part “the scribes” played in that country, and how constantly their mention recurs. Possibly, the order of scribes may have been thus introduced among Israel. As the lettered class, the scribes would naturally be the intermediaries between their brethren and the Egyptians. We may, therefore, regard them also as the representatives of learning, alike Israelitish and Egyptian. That the art of writing was known to the Israelites at the time of Moses is now generally admitted. Indeed, Egyptian learning had penetrated into Canaan itself, and Joshua found its inhabitants mostly in a very advanced state of civilisation, one of the towns bearing even the name of Kirjath-sepher, the city of books, or Kirjath-sannah, which might almost be rendered “university town.”25

Edersheim, A. (1975). Bible History: Old Testament (Vol. 2, pp. 28–29). Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jul 19, 2015)

I would also add that the appointment of "elders in every Church" from Paul's instruction follows the order of the Jewish synagogue. One could say that a presbyterian government functioned along side of a hereditary aristocracy (think "rich young ruler").


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## RamistThomist (Jul 19, 2015)

bookslover said:


> Moses was instructed by God to choose leaders from the tribal elders. Voting is a fairly modern political concept.



So the Hebrews didn't run grassroots campaigns to "get our man elected and take our country back?"


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## Ed Walsh (Jul 19, 2015)

Semper Fidelis said:


> I would also add that the appointment of "elders in every Church" from Paul's instruction follows the order of the Jewish synagogue.



I have read and re-read this with your former post and I am not sure what you mean. For slow people like me, What is "the order of the Jewish synagogue." I must have missed it... Thanks


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## Contra_Mundum (Jul 19, 2015)

Can't promise concerning the quality, but you might investigate Shearer's opinions: https://books.google.com/books?id=9...ved=0CCsQ6AEwAGoVChMIktStgdTnxgIVCn6ICh3W-Atg


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## Semper Fidelis (Jul 19, 2015)

Ed Walsh said:


> Semper Fidelis said:
> 
> 
> > I would also add that the appointment of "elders in every Church" from Paul's instruction follows the order of the Jewish synagogue.
> ...



What I mean is that the idea of "elder rule" in Churches (assemblies) was not de novo. The pattern of elders was already established and picked up by the Christian Church.


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## Peairtach (Jul 20, 2015)

It would be interesting study to know how much rule by elected elders, and the doctrine of salvation by grace alone, had on the development of liberal democracy, and no doubt some book or books could be recommended on that subject.


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## VictorBravo (Jul 20, 2015)

They may not have had a vote, but there is precedent for Israel to override the king's judgment by popular referendum:

1Sa 14:45 And the people said unto Saul, Shall Jonathan die, who hath wrought this great salvation in Israel? God forbid: as the LORD liveth, there shall not one hair of his head fall to the ground; for he hath wrought with God this day. So the people rescued Jonathan, that he died not.


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## Ed Walsh (Jul 20, 2015)

Semper Fidelis said:


> the idea of "elder rule" in Churches (assemblies) was not de novo. The pattern of elders was already established and picked up by the Christian Church.



Thanks for the clarification. I'm a little slow these days. 

I was thinking of Calvin's teaching (on Titus 1:5) that the appointment of elders was to be "declared by a show of hands;" by the vote of the whole congregation—not by the decree of Titus.

Institutes Book 4, Ch 3, Sect 15


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## Pilgrim (Jul 20, 2015)

ReformedReidian said:


> Peairtach said:
> 
> 
> > What's best for one people may not be good for another people.
> ...



Who claims that there was an American style voting system? Certain "theonomists" on Facebook?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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## RamistThomist (Jul 20, 2015)

Pilgrim said:


> ReformedReidian said:
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> > Peairtach said:
> ...



Yes.


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## Ken (Jul 22, 2015)

ReformedReidian said:


> In choosing the "leaders of Israel" or even a Judge, did people vote and were the votes tallied? Or did some elders choose guys to go represent others?



It is not obvious the US rule of government is the same today as that of the founding fathers, let alone anything like the ancient Israelite's. The US is becoming a democracy with the electoral and the constitution standing in the way of completely removing the representative republic. It is sad that someday the US will be a democracy; fore, all democracies fail, the idea that 9 wolves can vote against a single lamb on what is for dinner is unsettling if you are the lamb.

Concerning the rule of Israel, it depends on the history: Moses gave the law, then came the Judges chosen by God, then the monarchy(s) of Judah and Israel, not seeing a democracy here anywhere? It looks like the rule of government today is more like the book of Judges where they did what was right in the sight of their own eyes; of course, we are civilized about it and vote on what is right and wrong because there are no absolutes anymore.

God bless you and keep you,
Ken


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## Semper Fidelis (Jul 22, 2015)

It's interesting to me that I've read so many continue to claim that there was no form of a "vote" in ancient Israel. As Edersheim notes, the elders and scribes *preceded* Moses. There were also hereditary rulers of tribes at the time. This is part of recorded Jewish history. I agree that it is a stretch to look at our representative democracy and claim that this is what Ancient Israel had but it is also simply not the case to claim that the people were not represented. The elders were, in fact, the people's representatives. These (along with the scribes and rulers of tribes) seem to have been in an official capacity throughout Israel's history.


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## RamistThomist (Jul 22, 2015)

Part of what prompted my question is I've had my Christianity questioned by some because I didn't hold to the "Hebrew Theocratic Republic" model, which just seemed to me to be a front for Ron Paul political evangelism. So I started wondering if there was a 1:1 correlation between modern Ron Paul grassroots movements and Moses.


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## Andrew P.C. (Jul 22, 2015)

ReformedReidian said:


> Pilgrim said:
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> 
> > ReformedReidian said:
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You must have been dealing with some off the wall theonomists since every one I've read so far (North, Bahnsen, Demar, Mcdurmon..to name a few) would not say that there was an _American_ style voting system.


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