# Babies a curse??



## QueenEsther (Nov 18, 2008)

Is there ever a time when having a baby is not a blessing?


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## Prufrock (Nov 18, 2008)

When you're in labor?

More seriously: I don't think so. It might not always seem to be one, or be understood to be one; but I think if understood properly, bearing children is always a great blessing. (This is coming from a man, of course...But the Psalms, and the blessings on Israel, and the cursed status of not being able to have children seems to me that it should always be seen as a wonderful blessing to mankind).


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## Mushroom (Nov 18, 2008)

Only possibility I could think of is here:



> Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.


But that does not mean it would be a curse.


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## KMK (Nov 18, 2008)

They might be a curse to you if you do not raise them in the admonition of the Lord. Hence David and Absolom.


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## QueenEsther (Nov 18, 2008)

So, if you were to find out you were pregnant there's no reason why people shouldn't rejoice with you, right?

What if you were unemployed and looking for work when you found out? Does it change anything?


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## KMK (Nov 18, 2008)

QueenEsther said:


> So, if you were to find out you were pregnant there's no reason why people shouldn't rejoice with you, right?
> 
> What if you were unemployed and looking for work when you found out? Does it change anything?



Absolutely not!

It is in the most unlikely circumstances where blessings are the most visible! Trust in the Word of the Lord. It _promises_ that a child is a blessing and an arrow in a mighty quiver. These promises are not contingent upon circumstances.

Mary's circumstances certainly were not ideal according to the world's standards!


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## Grace Alone (Nov 18, 2008)

The world sees things through vastly different eyes than we do. Some would be critical that someone would get pregnant when they are unemployed rather than accept God's providence and rejoice over the gift of a new child. So I would not be dismayed that not all will rejoice. In fact, when we adopted our third child when the first two were 10 and 13, many family members thought we were crazy. I even had people say in my presence, "I'm glad it's not me!!!". You just can't let people get to you because they are not always coming from the same place spiritually.


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## TimV (Nov 18, 2008)

> So, if you were to find out you were pregnant there's no reason why people shouldn't rejoice with you, right?
> 
> What if you were unemployed and looking for work when you found out? Does it change anything?



If it was out of wedlock then (if she doesn't get married before the baby comes) her child will be a bastard, and that is a great shame for the woman, her family and a heavy burden the poor kid.

If she's married, the woman and her friends should automatically think "Children are a heritage of the Lord, the fruit of the womb is His reward". And it should be a cause for great rejoicing. If it isn't, the woman should consider the kind of friends that she has, and perhaps do something about it.


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## Notthemama1984 (Nov 18, 2008)

As a husband of a barren wife, I cannot think of a time when a baby is a curse. There may be times when it is tough to have one, but it is never a curse.


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## Contra_Mundum (Nov 18, 2008)

"Children are an heritage from the Lord..." to those who trust in the Lord.

Not to say that any child born (or conceived) by the reprobate do not have the same imputed value of ALL persons made in the image of God--they DO.

But just that we need to be appropriately specific about to whom and of whom are the promises and declarations of the Bible made.

The child who grows up and kills, maybe abused or neglected, maybe pampered and coddled (e.g. Columbine killers; Menendez brothers., rich brats who killed their parents)--something about that says "not a blessing" to me. I don't know...

I just don't think you can take the whole idea out of the believing, covenant context.


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## he beholds (Nov 18, 2008)

The best line I've heard and hope to use one day is, "Will you deny me this blessing?"
My two children are 17 months apart, to which I heard much scoffing. "What, are you _Catholic_?" being one example. I am sure if/when we have more we'll hear more. 
I would advise anyone to use this same line, because I do not think a person could be cursed with a baby.


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## Semper Fidelis (Nov 18, 2008)

Contra_Mundum said:


> "Children are an heritage from the Lord..." to those who trust in the Lord.
> 
> Not to say that any child born (or conceived) by the reprobate do not have the same imputed value of ALL persons made in the image of God--they DO.
> 
> ...



I agree.

I think the real question is whether or not children are an unqualified blessing. Asking if Babies are a blessing sort of stops at an age that most children will pass. The issue is whether or not that child is raised in the fear and admonition of the Lord. If not then the Proverbs are replete with antithetical parallelisms that call such children a grief to their mothers and other such maledictions.


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## LadyFlynt (Nov 18, 2008)

As someone who was (1) told that she couldn't have children and (2) found out she was being BLESSED with her first child that SAME day her husband lost his job...no, babies are STILL a BLESSING! You can still find a job. Unfortunately, the world may not agree.


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## Ivan (Nov 18, 2008)

LadyFlynt said:


> As someone who was (1) told that she couldn't have children and (2) found out she was being BLESSED with her first child that SAME day her husband lost his job...no, babies are STILL a BLESSING! You can still find a job. Unfortunately, the world may not agree.



I can relate (and so can my wife). We found out I was losing my job about a week after we found out we were having our second child. After the birth of our third child was born we found out she had cerebral palsy.

Both were, have been and are blessings from God.


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## TimV (Nov 18, 2008)

Something to think about from Pastor B for sure. Still, the way God punished the Philistine King's household for holding another man's wife was to shut up their wombs. One could perhaps argue the point that this and several other OT examples of non-Israelites being either favored (e.g. the woman who had a room built for the Prophet) or punished by opening or closing the womb could be a form of common grace. At any rate it seems a sort of constant in the Bible that children are a blessing. Good thread.


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## QueenEsther (Nov 18, 2008)

Well, unfortunately, the ones who seem to give the most flack are fellow believers, just a few though (I hope).

Besides Psalm 127 what are other verses that express how babies are blessings?


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## Hamalas (Nov 19, 2008)

I come from a family of nine, & I would like to have a "Full Quiver" (7-12 kids would be perfect!) I am only nineteen but I have had this conversation with most of the people I work with. Even though I work at a *Christian* bookstore, I have found that most of my co-workers, (all of whom are women by the way) think that I am insane. They say that they want no more than 2-3. The question that I can't get past is this: If children are a blessing, then why would we seek to limit it? How many of us would go to the trouble of warding off material blessings like health, wealth, and freedom? Yet when it comes to children we go out of our way to prevent them! 

One piece of advice I would offer to those who might be talking to proponents of small families. One of the girls that I work with was recently married and we were talking about family sizes. She made a lot of talk about not wanting a big family, and about how two kids was all that she needed. But when I asked her some questions it turned out that she was really just afraid. She had been raised in a troubled home and was afraid of "messing up" her kids. Often times the reasons that people give for not having kids are different than their actual motivations. I say all of that just to caution us to speak patiently with our brothers and sisters. This is often a touchy subject, but still one that needs to be addressed.


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## kvanlaan (Nov 19, 2008)

> What if you were unemployed and looking for work when you found out? Does it change anything?



NO.

Nor if you find that the acquisition of children will exhaust your bank account. Nor if everyone and their dog tells you that you're crazy. Nor if it seems like the Lord has _really_ bad timing because your wife fell pregnant in (insert horrible situation here). Never.

When we talk to people about having a large family and encouraging them to do so, even when Scripture is brought into play, there's usually a "yes, but..." coming from their side. We have 9. We're not wealthy, but we're all well fed and well clothed. We are blessed.

Ben, don't crack. You'll hear about 'dangers' of large families, children who will 'get a complex' because of XYZ, etc. etc. Large covenant families are wonderful. You know that and if that is the direction in which the Lord is leading you, then by all means, have a bunch. If the plumbing doesn't work but you still feel called to a large family, then adopt. It's great.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Nov 19, 2008)

Matthew Henry on Psalm 127 is, as usual, instructive:



> *Children are a heritage, and a reward, and are so to be accounted, blessings and not burdens; for he that sends mouths will send meat if we trust in him.* Obed-edom had eight sons, for the Lord blessed him because he had entertained the ark, 1 Chron. xxvi. 5. Children are a heritage for the Lord, as well as from him; they are my children (says God) which thou hast borne unto me (Ezek. xvi. 20); and they are most our honour and comfort when they are accounted to him for a generation. 2. That they are a good gift, and a great support and defence to a family: As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man, who knows how to use them for his own safety and advantage, so are children of the youth, that is, children born to their parents when they are young, which are the strongest and most healthful children, and are grown up to serve them by the time they need their service; or, rather, children who are themselves young; they are instruments of much good to their parents and families, which may fortify themselves with them against their enemies. The family that has a large stock of children is like a quiver full of arrows, of different sizes we may suppose, but all of use one time or other; children of different capacities and inclinations may be several ways serviceable to the family. He that has a numerous issue may boldly speak with his enemy in the gate in judgment; in battle he needs not fear, having so many good seconds, so zealous, so faithful, and in the vigour of youth, 1 Sam. ii. 4, 5. Observe here, Children of the youth are arrows in the hand, which, with prudence, may be directed aright to the mark, God's glory and the service of their generation; but afterwards, when they have gone abroad into the world, they are arrows out of the hand; it is too late to bend them then. But these arrows in the hand too often prove arrows in the heart, a constant grief to their godly parents, whose gray hairs they bring with sorrow to the grave.



Increase Mather once said, "Drink is in itself a good creature of God, and to be received with thankfulness, but the abuse of drink is from Satan, the wine is from God, but the drunkard is from the Devil." Likewise, Solomon said, "Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions" (Eccl. 7.29). We believe in the doctrine of original sin. Babies are born corrupt, and vipers is an apt description of those little ones. And an ungodly child is a grief to his parents indeed. But "every thing this side of hell is mercy," says Matthew Mead. Life is a gift, a blessing. It is not to be refused, declined, set aside, despised, or rejected. God is the giver of life, and his works of creation, his gifts, are good. "Yes," as many parents of large families are weary of answering, "we know what causes it." God created the institution of marriage for precisely this purpose. Who knows what will happen with that baby, perhaps born into tragic, sinful or oppressive circumstances? To judge a baby as a punishment (Obama is famously quoted thus) is to despise the good gift of God, the author of life. What about the child born with Down's syndrome, the child born with some other birth defect (like me), the child who dies in the womb or shortly thereafter? Who can say about their eternal state with certainty, but was that child a punishment, and not a blessing? To say that reveals, in my opinion, a heart hardened by sin. 

Babies are a blessing. There is no question about it. That said, every child needs to be born again, and without that, they are a grief and trouble. Life is good and precious, babies are precious. Woe to that one who goes to perdition, however, it would be better for him if he had not been born (Matt. 26.24). But the issues of life are God's to give, and not ours (excepting lawful self-defense, judicial punishment, lawful war and such). Fruitfulness, conception, life, these are blessings. Those with stewardship over God's blessings pray that they will redound to his glory, and that babies will be born again.


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## LadyFlynt (Nov 19, 2008)

QueenEsther said:


> Well, unfortunately, the ones who seem to give the most flack are fellow believers, just a few though (I hope).
> 
> Besides Psalm 127 what are other verses that express how babies are blessings?



To be honest, those people you will not convince other than by your actions and steadfast commitment to ignore them. They will rationalise their reasons to the ends of the earth, because it's personal to them. Your view is taken as criticism of theirs. Ignore them and go on.


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## Honor (Nov 19, 2008)

I would say... what are your circumstances... Children are a blessing but they might be a blessing for someone else. I mean if you have no job, no husband, no place to live I would say adoption is the best way to go. but i say circumstance is the key in the whole thing. But that's just me


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## Hippo (Nov 19, 2008)

To the elect babies will always be a blessing, to those who have no communion with God even the goodness of God is offensive to them.


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## KMK (Nov 19, 2008)

QueenEsther said:


> Well, unfortunately, the ones who seem to give the most flack are fellow believers, just a few though (I hope).
> 
> Besides Psalm 127 what are other verses that express how babies are blessings?





> Job 1:1-3 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. And there were born unto him *seven sons and three daughters*. His substance also was *seven thousand sheep*, and *three thousand camels*, and *five hundred yoke of oxen*, and *five hundred she asses*, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east.





> Job 42:12,13 So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had *fourteen thousand sheep*, and *six thousand camels*, and a *thousand yoke of oxen*, and a *thousand she asses*. He had also *seven sons and three daughters*.




God blessed Job more in the end than the beginning by blessing him with double. But, in the end, God didn't have to bless Job with 14 sons and 6 daughters because the children he had who died in the beginning were, and continued to be, a blessing to Job. Therefore, God blessed Job with 7 more sons and 3 more daughters and thus doubled his blessing from the beginning.

I believe children are a blessing from the Lord, even when the parent outlives them. I guess sometimes their sinful actions might not be but that would go for husbands and wives and pastors and they are still considered a blessing.


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## QueenEsther (Nov 22, 2008)

thanks for your responses, they are encouraging


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## he beholds (Nov 23, 2008)

I made a timeline covering the shift in language from procreation to reproduction. It is based on a two-part talk that an MD gave to the women in our church. The basic timeline goes from Creation to present day. At creation, children were a welcome possible result of being intimate. Today, intimacy isn't even necessary to make children. 
At creation, children were a blessing of the Lord. Today, children are often commodities, hence the idea of re*production*. Following the fall, and throughout time, there came a long line of "planning" methods, from abstinence to different types of "birth control" (barrier, hormonal, permanent sterilization, etc.) to abortion. (And on the other end, fertilization treatments _can _ help people have babies without being intimate.

I believe that the change in methods shows a cultural shift where children are not simply seen as blessings or gifts from the Lord. I also believe that Christians have let the culture slide some, and that even we may not truly consider what our own practices are saying. I do not claim to know which practices are best and I also make note of health issues, etc, that could influence our own practices. Before the fall, there would not have been all of the issues that we now have to consider when trying to be responsible, godly subjects of the King.

I have all kinds of disclaimers on the timeline, because I do not think everything is black and white, but I do think that the bottom line is often closer to the idea that in society today, children are hobbies, rather than gifts. Part of this may have to do with the fact that children are literally less useful to families. (For example, in agrarian societies, children had more of a role in helping the families farm, thus the more kids you had, the more field hands.) 

If you PM me your email, I can send you the timeline that shows a little bit more of the specifics. I tried to get it online as a document, but google docs kept undoing my format
Anyway, just PM me your email address if you want the timeline
Shalom, jessi


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## rgreen (Nov 23, 2008)

*Thank you*



kvanlaan said:


> > What if you were unemployed and looking for work when you found out? Does it change anything?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My husband and I have four children aged 5, 3, 2 and 9 months. 
I am having a very difficult time at the moment, because although I know that we cannot responsibly have anymore children, (we are 6 people in a rented 2.5 bedroom house!) now is the time that I am feeling keenly my lack of pregnancy. 

We have received a great deal of criticism for the largeness of our family, and it is nice to hear the reassurance that even in our circumstances, to have four young children is alright!


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## Matthias (Nov 23, 2008)

KMK said:


> QueenEsther said:
> 
> 
> > Well, unfortunately, the ones who seem to give the most flack are fellow believers, just a few though (I hope).
> ...



Interesting observation. Its amazing how you can read something so many times and not pick up on certain things I never noticed before that everything was doubled, yet the number of children was the same as before.


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## Semper Fidelis (Nov 23, 2008)

VirginiaHuguenot said:


> Matthew Henry on Psalm 127 is, as usual, instructive:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good post Andrew.

My point in mentioning children and not merely babies is that we sometimes sentimentalize babies because they're cuddly and cute and even the sins they commit are often times the same. I consider all my children to be an undeserved blessing and would never consider a life from God to be a curse.

That said, even the passage that often comes to mind about children is this:
[bible]Psalm 127:3-5[/bible]
The passage, in its full context, speaks of children who are not only a blessing at birth but, especially, those who are standing with us against our enemies and that implies they are grown up and are believers.

I've been one of the loudest advocates of infant baptism and why it is I believe we baptize our children who are born holy. At the same time, there must be a soberness by parents that God gets all due for grace and salvation in this world and we and our children get all credit for apostasy. 

It cannot be denied that what came from God as an infant to us is a blessing and I always get tears in my eyes when I witness the grace of baptism. It cannot be denied, however, that when a child has left the faith after leaving home at age 18 that this is a tremendous grief to parents and God does not get to be called on the carpet for that situation: Churches and parents do. According to the things revealed, God repeatedly warns parents about the apostasy of their children if they are not raised in the fear and admonition of the Lord. 

Yes, I realize He elects and I will never presume upon His election of my children. I also realize that I cannot force His hand. I try to do the things God has charged me with by training them in the fear and admonition of the Lord. I'm yet keenly aware that whatever rebellion occurs, I cannot escape accountability as if they're not my kids and blame it all on God. I understand too much on the Providence of God to know that He superintends all but we cannot escape accountability.

Thus, believers should not call anything from the hand of God a curse. At the same time, we need to recognize that as much as the things that God gives us bless us that we have to receive them with fear and trembling because food, drink, sex, money, work, and kids can all become twisted by our sinful nature and require us to rely upon His grace that they may be received to His glory.


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## kvanlaan (Nov 23, 2008)

> Your view is taken as criticism of theirs. Ignore them and go on.



I would have to agree - it seems as though your very existance as you are is often enough to raise the hackles of those around you who do not agree.



> My husband and I have four children aged 5, 3, 2 and 9 months. I am having a very difficult time at the moment, because although I know that we cannot responsibly have anymore children, (we are 6 people in a rented 2.5 bedroom house!) now is the time that I am feeling keenly my lack of pregnancy.
> 
> We have received a great deal of criticism for the largeness of our family, and it is nice to hear the reassurance that even in our circumstances, to have four young children is alright!



We are 11 people in a rented 3 bedroom house. My wife and I sleep in the back porch and we turned part of the basement into a bedroom. It's cozy, but we don't feel like we're enduring any hardship (now that our container showed up from China and we aren't sleeping on the floor anymore!)

And our children keep lobbying for adopting more - we're not going there right now!


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## Semper Fidelis (Nov 23, 2008)

rgreen said:


> kvanlaan said:
> 
> 
> > > What if you were unemployed and looking for work when you found out? Does it change anything?
> ...



I'm sorry to hear that anyone would criticize for a large family. We had 6 of us crowded into small base quarters in Okinawa. Prior to that we were blessed to have enough space for our kids to each have their own room but our kids prefer to be in one room together. When the love of the Lord is in a home, no amount of space is too little and when it is lacking no amount of space is enough to keep the peace.

My extended family always comments on how happy our children are. I don't take pride in it because God gives the grace. I do, however, feel sorrow at witnessing my extended family's sorrows in spite of all the material blessings they enjoy. It's not really a state secret as to how joy in a home results.


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## wturri78 (Nov 23, 2008)

I'm probably on the very early part of the parenting curve here--one 9-mo. old son. But that little guy has brought more joy into our home and hearts than we ever could have imagined. I used to panic if a dish made it overnight without being washed, and it took me a while to accept that I'd have to let that go  He's our little bundle of entropy. But we definitely want more and cannot think of any reason why a child would be anything other than a blessing. It drives me nuts to hear people talk about how much they enjoy business trips because they get away from their spouses and kids. Get away to what, drinking after a conference and watching crummy TV in a hotel room? 

To the people with 7+ kids...at what point do you start getting all their names confused? 

Another interesting thing that's been observed before, is that the typical secularized lifestyles in western culture (even the "conservative" variety) goes hand-in-glove with small families, sometimes with no children at all. So if Reformed people keep cranking out the babies, we'll have the numbers in a few more generations


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## rgreen (Nov 23, 2008)

kvanlaan said:


> > Your view is taken as criticism of theirs. Ignore them and go on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Something about the image that you project is just very beautiful, but unfortunately, it doesn't really relate to suburban Adelaide! 

What kind of vehicle do you own? How do you give that many children enough attention? How do you get the homework done? Isn't there always an incredible amount of noise?

Our eldest, (the 5 -year-old,) is incredibly loud and boisterous. His poor younger brother is constantly harrassed, bossed, and ordered around. All day I am asking him to please do this, and please not do that- constantly-and usually being ignored! He comes home from school with new and unacceptable words, and brings with him all the "killing" games that they play all day, to inflict on his siblings.

A bit of peace would be nice! 

You are amazing.


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## LawrenceU (Nov 23, 2008)

I just came across this thread. Children are never a curse. Never. Reading about your larger families makes me choke up. We have been blessed with a wonderful daughter, when the medical professionals said that it would be impossible for us to carry a child to term. She is now thirteen and becoming a splendidly wonderful young lady. My wife and I would love to have a house full of children. But, that has not been God's desire, so far. We have tried adoption, fostering, all sorts of avenues, but every time the door closes. 

Those of you with a house full of children, enjoy it. Set an example for the world to see.


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## Galatians220 (Nov 23, 2008)

rgreen said:


> kvanlaan said:
> 
> 
> > > What if you were unemployed and looking for work when you found out? Does it change anything?
> ...


 
Hmmm... "Feeling keenly... lack of pregnancy." Never heard that more eloquently put. I'd hate to say for how long I felt that!  You are so blessed with each one of your children!!!!

We only have one child.  A year before I got pregnant with him, I was diagnosed with aplastic anemia and, well, there wasn't much hope. I was told, "You would have been better off with leukemia (a differential diagnosis for awhile) because at least we can treat that." I had a platelet count of 18K (nl = 140K-400K) when the pregnancy was discovered and was told I wouldn't carry it for more than a couple of weeks. Well, I carried for 41.6 weeks.  My mom was *furious* at me and refused to buy any baby stuff before the birth because, she said, "You're probably both going to die." So also said the doctors, _but we didn't._ I had a platelet count of zero going into my C-section; all the platelets used for that were the result of "the generosity of strangers." 

*But the Lord is good and kind and merciful and LOVING.* He delights in having the last word, and also in performing miracles. How did salvation come into this house? This "baby" of ours got saved at age 18 and slowly and lovingly witnessed Jesus Christ to both of us - and the Lord saved us a few years later. The pregnancy that was supposed to have killed me was a means by which the Lord let my husband and me hear the real Gospel. I praise Him every day for His mercy and love in choosing such a magnificent way in which to impart the Good News to such a wretched sinner as I.

Oh, how we would have liked to have had more children! But the doctors always said no; I had "one miracle; do you want two?" _Uh, yes._  And we couldn't adopt, either, because you can't have a "terminal" diagnosis hanging over your head and be approved to adopt.

We've looked into the "foster grandparent" program, but I don't meet the age minimum and we don't meet the, shall we say, income requirements. Also, we can't commit to 40 hours a week because I work about 10 at my "real job." We are sorely suffering from the lack of children in our lives.

I'm glad, though, to hear how the Lord has blessed so many of you! He is faithful to His people and provides them with children as a great blessing! It's so great to see these countless incidents of irrefutable evidence of His love and *the fulfillment of His promises to His own!*

May He bless all of you with grace in boundless measure, and daily, ever-increasing happiness in your families, however large they are!



Margaret


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## kvanlaan (Nov 23, 2008)

> Your view is taken as criticism of theirs. Ignore them and go on.
> 
> I would have to agree - it seems as though your very existance as you are is often enough to raise the hackles of those around you who do not agree.
> 
> ...



HA HA! I would never venture to compare myself with an apostle, except to say that when Paul counted himself least among the Saints, I hadn't been born yet. 

Remember, we all have our callings. Pergy goes striking off into the jungle and says that's everyday life - I would never have the stomach for it. Rich is a witness to the Marines (who live and breathe a religion all their own). Me? No way. There are numerous pastors here who gladly give of themselves 24/7 (while if I had a nickel for every time I was grudgingly obedient, I would be a _wealthy_ man.)

Our children all get out of hand at times; spirited, surging horses require a tight rein, that's all - it makes them more productive and more effetively channels their energy. I think a lot of people do think we're too strict, but I expect my child to say "yes sir" or at least "yes dad" when I speak to him or her. It sets a standard and an expectation that helps keep the crowd in line.

One other thing we think helps is that we home school. There are no new words/habits/premarital practices that are brought home from school. We may send the children to highschool in some cases, but it's not in the cards right now.

Oh, and we drive a big Ford van that seats 12 - it's pretty much a necessity. One more child and we move into bus territory. 

Life is louder, but it is more full too - in a good way. My wife, when confronted with the shock and disbelief of the general populace, usually launches into what a blessing the children are. Most unbelievers have never thought of them in that way, save for the few we meet who are unable to have them - _they_ understand. But on the whole, it is believers who will tell us to please understand that we are blessed and to be sure to take things seriously.

For those who are interested in international adoption, please talk to me, I would be happy to direct you to those who can help get that going.


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## kvanlaan (Nov 23, 2008)

Also, Margaret, we are, according to Google, only 238 miles away from you. We've got lots of kids to lend, because grandparents are in short supply. We'll _gladly_ adopt _you_!


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## Galatians220 (Nov 23, 2008)

kvanlaan said:


> Also, Margaret, we are, according to Google, only 238 miles away from you. We've got lots of kids to lend, because grandparents are in short supply. We'll _gladly_ adopt _you_!


 
_What? What?_ *Are you in Chicago???* Or, what else is 238 miles from me? Erie, PA? Dayton, OH? 



Hey, I'd be happy to be adopted as a grandparent from 10,000 miles away!    Adopt me away! How about as a "prayer grandparent?" We can do that from anywhere!!!! Thanks!!!

Love in Christ, to you and all,

Margaret


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## Honor (Nov 23, 2008)

LawrenceU said:


> I
> Those of you with a house full of children, enjoy it. Set an example for the world to see.


What is a house full?


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## kvanlaan (Nov 23, 2008)

> What? What? Are you in Chicago??? Or, what else is 238 miles from me? Erie, PA? Dayton, OH?



We're now in Hamilton, Ontario; across the border (I must update my signature, I know.) Thing is, we can't cross the border until we get my wife and the boys applications registered for Canadian Permanent Residency. So prayer will have to do for now!


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## christiana (Nov 23, 2008)

Whats with all the criticism and whom are we seeking most to please in having our families?
We had what we called the 'big three' and the 'little three' because there was five years between. When my first one was 11 months old I brought home twins and five years later I had three more that were two years apart. It was a blessing and I felt no need to answer to the criticism of others, only to God and my husband! We were thrilled and though we went through some really challenging times and events I still would do the same!


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## Mindaboo (Nov 23, 2008)

> Whats with all the criticism and whom are we seeking most to please in having our families?



I agree with you, that we do indeed need to live our lives to please and honor the Lord. But, in all honesty, those of us who don't have thick skin get hurt by these comments. I for one heard all about each pregnancy that I had, it was hard. My mom, my sisters, my in-laws all had something to say. My last two aren't quite 13 months apart, and I never thought I would hear the end of it from my mom. These family members are not Christian and they just didn't get it. I finally had to tell my mom that if she wanted to be a part of my life and her grandchildren's lives she needed to keep her opinion to herself. With my mother-in-law I took a different approach, they were overseas so I didn't bother to tell her until she was heading back to the US. I was seven months pregnant. I think she got the hint, that I just didn't care anymore what she thought about it. I never had a brother or sister in the Lord say anything. We were a small family in our church, most had between 5-9 kids. I was thankful for that support, but everywhere we went, the grocery store, book stores, you name it, people I had never met before would ask, " Do you know what causes that?". I even had two little old ladies speaking very loudly about me one day. I look very young. I still get carded for buying wine, so I understand on some level. I was struggling with two babies, and two young children, it was hard enough. I wouldn't trade any of my babies for anything, but negative comments wear you down emotionally.


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## rgreen (Nov 24, 2008)

kvanlaan said:


> > One other thing we think helps is that we home school.
> 
> 
> How do you do it? Is one of you a qualified teacher? How do you keep up? It is possible to concentrate on it if you also have babies or toddlers?


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## KMK (Nov 24, 2008)

wturri78 said:


> To the people with 7+ kids...at what point do you start getting all their names confused?



As of now we only have 5 children, but, honestly, I began to confuse their names once we had our second. Early onset Alzheimer's I guess.


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## Mushroom (Nov 24, 2008)

> Is one of you a qualified teacher?


With the quality of public school teachers we have in this country, I'm thinking my dachsund may be as 'qualified'.


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## Notthemama1984 (Nov 24, 2008)

Brad said:


> > Is one of you a qualified teacher?
> 
> 
> With the quality of public school teachers we have in this country, I'm thinking my dachsund may be as 'qualified'.






My mom homsechooled all four of us kids. The way she did it was through Accelerated Christian Education. It is designed to be self taught with a parent or teacher only there for help when one does not understand.


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## LadyFlynt (Nov 24, 2008)

My mother and stepfather only had three children, the first two of us were spread out by 5.5yrs and my youngest half brother is 14.5yrs younger. I was the only girl. They STILL mixed up our names. My dad had 4 of us. My twin sisters, well, he just took to calling them "Fred". Didn't matter which one he was calling, they were both "Fred".

HSing: You are not required to be a certified teacher to home educate your children. Many without ANY degree do better than many "teachers" within the government schools. And we learn to manage with babies and toddlers.


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## wturri78 (Nov 24, 2008)

Honor said:


> LawrenceU said:
> 
> 
> > I
> ...



I think a 12-bedroom mansion with a single child might still count as a house full. Kids are kind of like gasses, in that they seem to expand to fill whatever volume is available. You never know where the Cheerios will turn up!

I've heard people debate what constitutes a "full quiver." Personally, I think we should modernize the term and start referring to them as our "ammo clips."

Lock 'n load!


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## he beholds (Nov 24, 2008)

kvanlaan said:


> > For those who are interested in international adoption, please talk to me, I would be happy to direct you to those who can help get that going.
> 
> 
> 
> Is there any truly affordable (aka free or close to it) adoption of infants program that you know of? I'm married to one of those Dachshund-like public school teachers


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## LadyFlynt (Nov 24, 2008)

> Lock and Load


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## KMK (Nov 24, 2008)

Brad said:


> > Is one of you a qualified teacher?
> 
> 
> With the quality of public school teachers we have in this country, I'm thinking my dachsund may be as 'qualified'.



A Bachelor's is not required to substitute teach in CA.


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## Prufrock (Nov 24, 2008)

Nor in Michigan. 90 hours at an accredited, non-community college are required.


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## KMK (Nov 24, 2008)

> he beholds said:
> 
> 
> > kvanlaan said:
> ...


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## Law Grace Radio (Nov 24, 2008)

God says "All things work together for the good of those who him (God)"

Even if at the time a person doesn't rejoice, or circumstances overcome them, it the absolute right thing. It may be teaching patience and hurt a lot on the way- but God knows best.

I wouldn't be rebuking the unrejoicing mother and kicking her out the church for lack of joy though. Sometimes we need to ride the storms with people and invest in them. It is a lot easier to judge from the outside. Yes sometimes we are wrong, yet often don't see it ourselves!

Oh how wretched we are! That shows Grace for what it is right?


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