# "things which I have seen with [para] My Father" (John 8:38); preexistence?



## Trinity Apologetics (Jan 31, 2015)

Do you guys see John 8:38 as a reference to the Son's preexistence with the Father? Is it possible that He's referencing/implying the creation? Is the word "para" in the dative case in the Greek like John 17:5? Is there a parallel in Greek grammar between John 8:38 and 17:5?

God bless!


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## Nomad (Jan 31, 2015)

Trinity Apologetics said:


> Is the word "para" in the dative case in the Greek like John 17:5? Is there a parallel in Greek grammar between John 8:38 and 17:5?



Prepositions are not inflected, but the meaning of a preposition depends on the case of its object, (the words that follow). In both of your John references the preposition "para" is followed by its object in the dative, meaning "with," "beside" or "in the presence of."


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## Trinity Apologetics (Feb 1, 2015)

What about para in John 14:17? "but you know Him because He abides with [para] you and will be in you."

What case are the objects?


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## Nomad (Feb 1, 2015)

Trinity Apologetics said:


> What about para in John 14:17? "but you know Him because He abides with [para] you and will be in you."
> 
> What case are the objects?



The personal pronoun following "para" is in the dative. If you don't mind me asking, what are you trying to do with this information?


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## Trinity Apologetics (Feb 3, 2015)

Is there a place online where I can see which prepositions are followed by what case? This is related to my studies and defense of the Trinity. John 14:17 is common verse Modalists use to prove Jesus is the Holy Spirit.


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