# reformed rap?



## thywillnotminebedone

so, what do you think of guys taking reformed theology and rapping about it? the rapper i am talking about is shai linne. i just came across him, to my surprise the lyrics are very biblical. so, is that ok? 

here is a link to my blog where you can hear a song if you like


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## raekwon

I can't find any reason why theologically sound, God-glorifying lyrics set to ANY musical genre -- hip-hop, R&B, "death" metal, screamo, pop, bluegrass, country -- wouldn't be "okay". I honestly have to wonder why this is even a question that we ask.

(Boy, it pained me to put country in that list. )


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## BobVigneault

I've been a fan for years. I especially love the Christcentric guys and Lecrae.


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## raekwon

BobVigneault said:


> I've been a fan for years. I especially love the Christcentric guys and Lecrae.



Lecrae is fantastic.


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## BobVigneault

I cry every time I hear "Praying For You" by Lecrae. A great call to intercessory prayer.

YouTube - Lecrae (Praying For You)


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## christianyouth

Wow, great song.


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## FenderPriest

Curtis Allen (known as "Voice") is one of those reformed rap guys. He just graduated from the Sovereign Grace Pastors College.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Not my cup of tea but good nonetheless. 

Wonder if the RPCNA will be coming out with an " R&B" Psalter?


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## ericfromcowtown

I guess it's a time and place thing. Personally rap makes me cringe, and I think that most on this board would agree that the right "time" isn't during a service. Having said that, I think we need to be careful not to confuse taste or tradition with what is or isn't appropriate. It's nice to see a musician of any style use scripturally solid lyrics.


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## BobVigneault

Rap would definitely not fit into a worship service, however, in the bulletin we may start referring to the responsive reading as 'Da Holla Back'.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

BobVigneault said:


> Rap would definitely not fit into a worship service, however, in the bulletin we may start referring to the responsive reading as 'Da Holla Back'.





Of course Gwen Stefani is no "Hollaback Girl"...


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## FenderPriest

We've had rap in our services...


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## Christusregnat

BobVigneault said:


> I cry every time I hear \"Praying For You\" by Lecrae. A great call to intercessory prayer.
> 
> YouTube - Lecrae (Praying For You)



SSSsssssweet!

I used to listen to SFC, IDOL King and PID when I was a lad. The only one that I've heard recently is KJ-52:

[video=youtube;7CqLk0YWYCs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CqLk0YWYCs[/video]

A touching ballad to Slim Shady.


Not totally reformed, but loves the Lord, and is moving in the right direction.

Cheers,

Adam


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## Pergamum

I like chicken raps..they're mighty tasty.



Yo, I'm Big John C. and I'm hear to say,
Why even pray, it's predestined anyway.


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## Reepicheep

Pergamum said:


> I like chicken raps..they're mighty tasty.
> 
> 
> 
> Yo, I'm Big John C. and I'm hear to see,
> Why even pray, it's predestined anyway.





Stick to your chicken raps, your ryhme isn't fly (mostly because it doesn't ryhme).


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## holyfool33

Even if the person's intentions are good there going to get lost in the culture as a whole because the hip hop community as a whole doesn't care. Simply put spiritual things are understood by the spiritually minded. I know this because I used to associate with a local rap label in MI . Thinking if I had positive lyrics I could positively influence the people I was friends with. I also feel why attach yourself to such a worldly sinful culture in which simply put your casting your pearls before swine. Of course this is a matter of Christian Liberty so it all depends on not being a stumbling block to your brother.


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## thywillnotminebedone

holyfool33 said:


> Even if the person's intentions are good there going to get lost in the culture as a whole because the hip hop community as a whole doesn't care. Simply put spiritual things are understood by the spiritually minded. I know this because I used to associate with a local rap label in MI . Thinking if I had positive lyrics I could positively influence the people I was friends with. I also feel why attach yourself to such a worldly sinful culture in which simply put your casting your pearls before swine. Of course this is a matter of Christian Liberty so it all depends on not being a stumbling block to your brother.



this quote is really what made me ask this question to start with, the first person to reply made a comment that the kind of music does not matter at all, i disagree. i came from a metal background (singing for 8 yearshttp://www.puritanboard.com/images/smilies/sing.gif
) and when i got saved i thought i could very easily just jump over into the very hip and popular Christian metal scene. in fact i cleaned up all my lyrics and even started to talk about salvation. i could not continue for very long. i gave it up and tossed hundreds of metal cd's into the trash. why? here is why, metal at it's very core was born from a movement of defiance, rebellion, hate, anger, violence, and satanism. it stands for and embodys everything thats totally contrary to Jesus Christ and the Gospel. for me it was a matter of this, "what fellowship has light with darkness?" none!! i stand firm that metal is evil, even with out words at all it invokes feelings of hate, anger, and violence. not to mention you can not understand the words half the time and most my old crew could listen to just as much Christian metal as satanic metal and never be the wiser, nor did they care if the band was using the name of Christ or baal. But then i hear this and he is not screaming so you can totally understand the message, it's not angry, or violent, and i could not help but think..... maybe not all other kinds of worldly music is evil. the thing is, i do not know much about rap or where it comes from and what it stands for. i am not sure it even matters. this rap, to me sends the right message. where as metal does not.


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## jogri17

I'm fine with it biblically just please don't make me listen to it.


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## Benjamin

thywillnotminebedone said:


> holyfool33 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even if the person's intentions are good there going to get lost in the culture as a whole because the hip hop community as a whole doesn't care. Simply put spiritual things are understood by the spiritually minded. I know this because I used to associate with a local rap label in MI . Thinking if I had positive lyrics I could positively influence the people I was friends with. I also feel why attach yourself to such a worldly sinful culture in which simply put your casting your pearls before swine. Of course this is a matter of Christian Liberty so it all depends on not being a stumbling block to your brother.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this quote is really what made me ask this question to start with, the first person to reply made a comment that the kind of music does not matter at all, i disagree. i came from a metal background (singing for 8 yearshttp://www.puritanboard.com/images/smilies/sing.gif
> ) and when i got saved i thought i could very easily just jump over into the very hip and popular Christian metal scene. in fact i cleaned up all my lyrics and even started to talk about salvation. i could not continue for very long. i gave it up and tossed hundreds of metal cd's into the trash. why? here is why, metal at it's very core was born from a movement of defiance, rebellion, hate, anger, violence, and satanism. it stands for and embodys everything thats totally contrary to Jesus Christ and the Gospel. for me it was a matter of this, "what fellowship has light with darkness?" none!! i stand firm that metal is evil, even with out words at all it invokes feelings of hate, anger, and violence. not to mention you can not understand the words half the time and most my old crew could listen to just as much Christian metal as satanic metal and never be the wiser, nor did they care if the band was using the name of Christ or baal. But then i hear this and he is not screaming so you can totally understand the message, it's not angry, or violent, and i could not help but think..... maybe not all other kinds of worldly music is evil. the thing is, i do not know much about rap or where it comes from and what it stands for. i am not sure it even matters. this rap, to me sends the right message. where as metal does not.
Click to expand...



However much I would want to argue with you here, I think that your point is valid. I am doing my 3rd year in music and we do alot of studying in just instruental music, for I am doing Western Classical, which to my knowledge is largely instrumental. The music is always inspired by a certain philosophy. Yet I think that music can be reformed for the glory of God? Can't the rebellious side of rock and the anger be used in expressions of rebellion against sin and Satan and anger against the injustice in the world? I also think that not all rock is just angry. Third day is a Christian rock band and some of their music is quite tranquil and beautiful. And other songs of theirs are quite upbeat and get me excited about serving the LORD.

Yet, I do believe that music does affect a person, even without words. This is beyond any doubt....


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## thywillnotminebedone

yes i think music can be reformed for the glory of the Lord. i would agree there. and you bring up a very interesting point about using the anger toward sin. yet i can not help but feel that the darker metal with the intonations it uses will always sound evil, and conjure up violence,hate, and anger against things that are good and not the other way around.


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## Confessor

thywillnotminebedone said:


> yes i think music can be reformed for the glory of the Lord. i would agree there. and you bring up a very interesting point about using the anger toward sin. yet i can not help but feel that the darker metal with the intonations it uses will always sound evil, and conjure up violence,hate, and anger against things that are good and not the other way around.



I understand what you are saying in regards to the affections that metal can cause, but not all metal music inspires pure aggression, and when directed in the right way it can be very helpful. For example, take the band Horde, classified as "unblack metal" because of its sound but anti-satanic lyrics (I say that because its Christian lyrics are very much focused on the defeat of Satan). At the end of the song "Invert the Inverted Cross," there are lyrics which go as follows:

What remains to be said
Invert the inverted cross
The inversion is but a lie
Upright it should stand
No longer an inversion
But a symbol of supreme victory​
The last line, virtually every time I listen to it, gives me an exhilaration and sense of triumph. It doesn't really inspire aggression in me, but rather joy. There are most certainly other extreme metal bands which inspire aggression in me, and I _always_ think of the triumph over evil and sin. Not only do I see this as not hurting me; I also see it as helpful in my battles with personal temptations.

That, and the musicianship is outstanding.


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## panta dokimazete

Bob, thanks...


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## Roldan

check it out

reformordinance.com 

thats me and my crew, especially check out my solo joint "Grace Unkown" and "Roldan vs Godzilla" we like to use allegory like CS lewis and Tolkien (however you spell it) we more street driven but most def reformed holla!!!


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## Reformed Baptist

Rap and Hip Hop frightens my children.


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## Roldan

Reformed Baptist said:


> Rap and Hip Hop frightens my children.



acroustic guitars and phantom of the opera type organ hymns fightens mines


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## ascottishsamurai

> But then i hear this and he is not screaming so you can totally understand the message, it's not angry, or violent, and i could not help but think..... maybe not all other kinds of worldly music is evil. the thing is, i do not know much about rap or where it comes from and what it stands for. i am not sure it even matters. this rap, to me sends the right message. where as metal does not.



Okay, you folks are now among my favorite people in the world. A couple of years ago, I discovered Christian rap and got very involved with it. I even had opportunity to attend a free release party for the group Everyday Process over in Chester, PA. During that time I was able to directly approach the artists, get autographs, and ask them how I could be keeping them in prayer. These guys are as solid on the stage as they are off of it. 

Throughout the show, whenever applause was offered, they would immediately stop the crowd and direct their focus upward. After the show, they even opened up the floor and invited anyone that wanted to know more about Christ to meet with them. Now keep in mind, we were in the heart of the ghetto, and there were nearly five hundred people there...many of whom had simply wandered in off the street for the free show. 

Needless to say, God is using the ministry. 

My dad has also been involved largely with ministering to these Christian hip-hop artists on mediums like myspace, and a few of them even recognized him at the release party and came up to hug him or shake his hand. 

But musically, I got inspired to try to further this ministry myself. So I started learning how to deejay and make beats as a sound engineer. I'm just a simple white boy, so I can't rap worth crud...but I wanted to be a part of that movement in some way for the glory of God, so I try to do my best to make beats that people with real talent can use. Though recently, I have been playing around with dance and electronica more, since those styles aren't as repetitive musically as rap tends to be, since the focus is on lyrics that I can't supply. lol. So if you went to my page right now, you wouldn't be able to tell that I enjoy making rap beats. 

But anyway, I have had opportunity to meet several other artists (some at the show, and others in my area) who are really down to earth humble and godly dudes. 

For example, check out my friend Mike Beats at MySpace.com - Mike Beats - Pittsburgh - Hip Hop / Christian Rap / Experimental - www.myspace.com/therealmikebeats. You won't be disappointed. He's an RP emcee with beats that make your sin flee. 

Or for a little taste of the "rapcore" genre, my friend Levi at MySpace.com - The Skeleton At The Feast - - Industrial / Hip Hop / Rock - www.myspace.com/theskeletonatthefeast. Or his more metal side at MySpace.com - We Are Not Rebels - PITTSBURGH, Pennsylvania - Alternative / Screamo / Rock - www.myspace.com/wearenotrebels. He too is RP, and also an awesome awesome dude.

But to get back to why I quoted thywillnotminebedone, the original drive of hip-hop was actually not one of greed and lust. Just look at the song "The Message" (one of the first rap songs of the eighties). The whole drive of that song is that those things are disgusting. 

But then something happened that changed the genre. Musically, the beats became more suggestive and tried to stir feelings of pride within the heart. The lyrics simply changed to match. It became a self-glorifying culture. 

The wonderful thing about Christian rap is that it is trying to take the culture and resubmit it back to Christ. To take the gift of music that He has provided, and reform it. 

But it's really encouraging to see so many fellow supporters of Holy Hip-Hop like this within reformed circles. I've been trying for years to get others hooked on it, and have even succeeded in getting several RP pastors to support it through prayer, even if they aren't wild about the music. And honestly, I thought that I would have to be the one to introduce a thread on the subject, since nobody else would know about it. 

What a pleasant surprise!


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## Ivan

Reepicheep said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> I like chicken raps..they're mighty tasty.
> 
> 
> 
> Yo, I'm Big John C. and I'm hear to see,
> Why even pray, it's predestined anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stick to your chicken raps, your ryhme isn't fly (mostly because it doesn't ryhme).
Click to expand...


I believe he meant "say".


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## Ivan

Well, obvioulsly I'm not RP. I believe each musical genre can be used to the glory of God. At Maranatha Church we use a blended style of worship. 

The above statement is quite a change for me. I must admit that I'd rather have a High Church experience (well, at least as high church a Southern Baptist can get! ). If I had my way, our worship would be more akin to the Anglican way of worship. However, I know that's not going to happen in my church or in the vast majority of Southern Baptist churches. I'm not going to impose my "perfect" worship service on anyone. 

That being said, I must say that it's going to be a long time before we have Rap in our worship service. Perhaps if I'm heavily sedated.


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## panta dokimazete

At one time I would decry anyone that called "rap" music - however, mostly due to this thread, I have come around on the issue


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## CharlieJ

Benjamin said:


> Yet I think that music can be reformed for the glory of God? Can't the rebellious side of rock and the anger be used in expressions of rebellion against sin and Satan and anger against the injustice in the world? I also think that not all rock is just angry. Third day is a Christian rock band and some of their music is quite tranquil and beautiful. And other songs of theirs are quite upbeat and get me excited about serving the LORD.
> 
> Yet, I do believe that music does affect a person, even without words. This is beyond any doubt....



There is some equivocation on the word "rock" here. When Third Day sings "tranquil and beautiful" music, they are not singing rock. Third Day is really a mix of rock, praise, and Appalachian-influenced folk. 

There are some heavy rock songs I like, but I generally can't listen to an entire hard-edged CD. The emotions engendered are disproportionately aggressive, angsty, or frustrated. I would listen to those same songs on a mixed CD where they were balanced out. 

Perhaps that's a lesson for churches. Many churches decide on a certain sound, and that produces a mono-emotional service. Maybe some thoughtful mixing of sounds would result in worship services facilitating a full range of proper emotions.


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## Ivan

panta dokimazete said:


> At one time I would decry anyone that called "rap" music - however, mostly due to this thread, I have come around on the issue



Yeah, me too. Plus my associate, JP, is a fan and he is an outstanding young man. I know he's going to try to sneak some Rap in the worship service. Gotta keep my radar on!


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## Roldan

ascottishsamurai said:


> But then i hear this and he is not screaming so you can totally understand the message, it's not angry, or violent, and i could not help but think..... maybe not all other kinds of worldly music is evil. the thing is, i do not know much about rap or where it comes from and what it stands for. i am not sure it even matters. this rap, to me sends the right message. where as metal does not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, you folks are now among my favorite people in the world. A couple of years ago, I discovered Christian rap and got very involved with it. I even had opportunity to attend a free release party for the group Everyday Process over in Chester, PA. During that time I was able to directly approach the artists, get autographs, and ask them how I could be keeping them in prayer. These guys are as solid on the stage as they are off of it.
> 
> Throughout the show, whenever applause was offered, they would immediately stop the crowd and direct their focus upward. After the show, they even opened up the floor and invited anyone that wanted to know more about Christ to meet with them. Now keep in mind, we were in the heart of the ghetto, and there were nearly five hundred people there...many of whom had simply wandered in off the street for the free show.
> 
> Needless to say, God is using the ministry.
> 
> My dad has also been involved largely with ministering to these Christian hip-hop artists on mediums like myspace, and a few of them even recognized him at the release party and came up to hug him or shake his hand.
> 
> But musically, I got inspired to try to further this ministry myself. So I started learning how to deejay and make beats as a sound engineer. I'm just a simple white boy, so I can't rap worth crud...but I wanted to be a part of that movement in some way for the glory of God, so I try to do my best to make beats that people with real talent can use. Though recently, I have been playing around with dance and electronica more, since those styles aren't as repetitive musically as rap tends to be, since the focus is on lyrics that I can't supply. lol. So if you went to my page right now, you wouldn't be able to tell that I enjoy making rap beats.
> 
> But anyway, I have had opportunity to meet several other artists (some at the show, and others in my area) who are really down to earth humble and godly dudes.
> 
> For example, check out my friend Mike Beats at MySpace.com - Mike Beats - Pittsburgh - Hip Hop / Christian Rap / Experimental - www.myspace.com/therealmikebeats. You won't be disappointed. He's an RP emcee with beats that make your sin flee.
> 
> Or for a little taste of the "rapcore" genre, my friend Levi at MySpace.com - The Skeleton At The Feast - - Industrial / Hip Hop / Rock - www.myspace.com/theskeletonatthefeast. Or his more metal side at MySpace.com - We Are Not Rebels - PITTSBURGH, Pennsylvania - Alternative / Screamo / Rock - www.myspace.com/wearenotrebels. He too is RP, and also an awesome awesome dude.
> 
> But to get back to why I quoted thywillnotminebedone, the original drive of hip-hop was actually not one of greed and lust. Just look at the song "The Message" (one of the first rap songs of the eighties). The whole drive of that song is that those things are disgusting.
> 
> But then something happened that changed the genre. Musically, the beats became more suggestive and tried to stir feelings of pride within the heart. The lyrics simply changed to match. It became a self-glorifying culture.
> 
> The wonderful thing about Christian rap is that it is trying to take the culture and resubmit it back to Christ. To take the gift of music that He has provided, and reform it.
> 
> But it's really encouraging to see so many fellow supporters of Holy Hip-Hop like this within reformed circles. I've been trying for years to get others hooked on it, and have even succeeded in getting several RP pastors to support it through prayer, even if they aren't wild about the music. And honestly, I thought that I would have to be the one to introduce a thread on the subject, since nobody else would know about it.
> 
> What a pleasant surprise!
Click to expand...


Excellent brother! and to add the Hip Hop culture is just that a culture that also needs redemption and reformation. I am of this culture and have been in this type of ministry for the last 13 yrs and have seen a great reformation happening in this culture but especially in the hearts of its members because at one point when I first started I was basically one of a few if any that was an MC and reformed most of the MC's came from heavy charasmatic backgrounds or arminian baptist traditions and let me tell you it was ROUGH for me doing concerts and explaining what in the world Refomed or Calvinist meant. They thought I was in a cult or something haha but In recent years I have seen many calvinist and reformed Mc's springing forth into the scene and I am overwhelmed with joy to see God's Spirit moving in this culture.

I am personal friends with the majority of the rappers and groups mentioned in this thread and can tell you they are on fire for Christ and Grace

Again heres my groups music page, theres alot of songs not on there but if anyone is interested in a more thorough CD you can pm me or request me on the music page.

Reformordinance.com


So scottish you make beats coo ima check them out cause I'm currently working on a solo album

HOLLA!!!


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## dcomin

Would that more preachers preached like shai linne raps!


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## ascottishsamurai

Roldan said:


> So scottish you make beats coo ima check them out cause I'm currently working on a solo album
> 
> HOLLA!!!



That's nuts, cause I've got a beat that needs lyrics. I don't know if it's something that you'd be interested in or not, but it's yours if you wanna play around with it. It's not on my myspace page, but I can email it to you or whatever.

It's real short, and I'm not sure where the inspiration for the car engine was from...but I can add/remove/change stuff if you want it, or I can even track it out and you can completely retool it if you'd rather do that.

And I won't be offended if you don't want it either. Completely up to you.


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## Roldan

[video=youtube;AO_A_sj6b-0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO_A_sj6b-0[/video]


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## DeoOpt

*Rap*

I realy dont listen to a lot of rap, but I just listened to Lecrea I though it was nice. I am a advid singer myself and I tend to win 1st prizes at Karaoke contests. and as the audiance puts it I sound like Frank Sanatra.


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## panta dokimazete

YouTube - shai linne - Slow Down


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## Jie-Huli

thywillnotminebedone said:


> so, what do you think of guys taking reformed theology and rapping about it? the rapper i am talking about is shai linne. i just came across him, to my surprise the lyrics are very biblical. so, is that ok?
> 
> here is a link to my blog where you can hear a song if you like



At the risk of sounding like a curmudgeon (though I am actually much too young to be a curmudgeon), I would have to answer your question with a resounding "No", it is not ok to mix biblical lyrics with rap or other such worldly music. I do not wish to offend any here (especially as I have not posted a great deal and most people do not know me well), and am reluctant to even post at all on this thread, but given the overwhelming preponderance of people who have posted to the opposite conclusion (other than a couple of dissenting voices), I decided to respond to at least help give a little balance to the discussion.

I do not doubt that many people involved in this sort of thing are well-meaning, but the thing itself is inherently wrong and unbiblical and, I believe, a force most destructive to deep godliness and compromising the testimony of vast numbers of professing Christians.

Simply put, the things of God are always to be handled with great reverence, this is a vital Scriptural principle, and it is assuredly not reverent to take lyrics concerning the things of God and set them to music which is intricately tied to a profane, worldly culture built on rebellion, sensuality, immorality and anarchy. While I am sure that people who listen to a great deal of rap and hip hop music can cite examples of "positive" messages here and there in the originators of those music types, there is no question that the values which people generally associate with them are not God-honouring. By and large, the people propelling those musical genres are doing so with a very anti-moral, anti-God agenda, so why in the world would Christians want to be associated with them in any way? We are to come out from the world, for friendship with the world is enmity with God. We are to avoid even the appearance of evil. Why then would we copy the world's music and even try to associate God's name with it? With all gentleness, I must say that this seems like nothing less than taking God's name in vain, for God has never intimated in His Word that His name should be associated with such things.

Quite the contrary, a principle found throughout the whole of Scripture is that the people of God must be set apart, and that the sacred must be set apart from the profane. God has always forbidden his people from borrowing from the immoral aspects of the heathen cultures around them.

While I know that the "regulative principle of worship" applies most directly only to stated times of worship, I believe that its principle applies always in the sense that the things of God should be sung about only according to the standards set out in God's Word, which rap and hip hop styles clearly fail to meet.

Finally, I would just say that music is not neutral. There is a definite moral content to beats and rhythms, both due to the cultures they are identified with and due to the affections and feelings which they excite, and it would seem clear that certain musical styles are simply not appropriate means to convey or discuss the things of God.

And it is certainly not necessary to adopt these styles in order to reach the youth generation. God's sovereignty is great enough to conquer people's hearts through the pure preaching of His Word.

Kind regards,

Jie-Huli


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## dcomin

Another one of my favorites is Timothy Brindle...

[video=youtube;6RZZOiSTQ9Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RZZOiSTQ9Y[/video]


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## Jie-Huli

joshua said:


> _Oy_. Here we go.
> 
> Jie (we've been here on the PB for a while and I _still_ don't know how to pronounce your name, so, _how_ do I?),
> 
> Can you please show from scripture what is _worldly_ music and what is _not_? How is it that an arrangement of musical notes and beats, divorced from lyrics, sinful nostalgia of the one listening, etc. can be _inherently_ evil for all people without exception?





Yes, I do seem to remember a lengthy discussion on this issue one time before. I do not really intend to force another lengthy discussion on it now though . . . I have said my peace, as it were, and will mostly leave it to others to continue with the thread as they like. Is that a dodge on my part? I do not intend it to be, but you have to bear in mind it is five hours later in the UK than it is in the US and it is about time for me to retire for the night. 

I will just say, though, that I do not really agree with the premise that we can look at any musical style in a vacuum . . . if its origin is in an ungodly sub-culture, then it would seem to me at least a good and necessary inference from Scripture that it is not to be adopted for conveying God's Word.

Kind regards,

Jie-Huli
(Gee-eh Hoo-lee)


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## Roldan

joshua said:


> _Oy_. Here we go.
> 
> Jie (we've been here on the PB for a while and I _still_ don't know how to pronounce your name, so, _how_ do I?),
> 
> Can you please show from scripture what is _worldly_ music and what is _not_? How is it that an arrangement of musical notes and beats, divorced from lyrics, sinful nostalgia of the one listening, etc. can be _inherently_ evil for all people without exception?



My same thoughts. There was no scriptural support for it. ANd my question to Jie is, do you even know the history of Hip Hop in the first place? 

I suggest you watch and listen carefully to this video, so you can have a better idea as to why Reformed HipHop. All should watch please. If you like you can even skip through the performances and just play when at the discussion table

[video=google;-1513687288543335897]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1513687288543335897&q=reform+ordinance&ei=SqGPSOe7HImSrwLGn8jYCg[/video]


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## Roldan

Jie-Huli said:


> I will just say, though, that I do not really agree with the premise that we can look at any musical style in a vacuum . . . if its origin is in an ungodly sub-culture, then it would seem to me at least a good and necessary inference from Scripture that it is not to be adopted for conveying God's Word.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Jie-Huli
> (Gee-eh Hoo-lee)



Jie, why not engage the culture and make disciples of it and reform it than just ignoring and shunning it? If thats our mentality then there would be no evangelism period cause ALL cultures are sinful and immoral etc....except for the Christian culture and for some movements I use "christian" very lightly.


----------



## ascottishsamurai

Jie-Huli said:


> By and large, the people propelling those musical genres are doing so with a very anti-moral, anti-God agenda, so why in the world would Christians want to be associated with them in any way? We are to come out from the world, for friendship with the world is enmity with God. We are to avoid even the appearance of evil. Why then would we copy the world's music and even try to associate God's name with it?



Matt 9:10-13
"While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples. When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'? On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

For years missionaries have struggled with the concept of just how far to take association with a culture (Should we dress like them? Eat the same foods? Do the same dances?). What it ultimately boils down to is that in order to reach out to a people group and gain and audience, you must adopt some of the "harmless" aspects of a culture (in the hip-hop setting: clothing, style of music, etc) while shunning the "anti-God agenda" parts (such as the wicked lyrical content or immoral behavior and demeanors). 

NOTE: Certainly I am not setting aside the grace of God, and the fact that He moves the hearts of people regardless of what we do. 

But if we do not show respect to those we reach out to from a certain sense, how then can we expect them to show us any respect at all in return? Particularly when we go in with a "holier than thou" mentality and try to completely stand apart as though _everything_ about them were evil and sinful. Certainly there is nothing sinful about wearing your hat cocked, or you jeans a little baggy...


----------



## Roldan

*"For years missionaries have struggled with the concept of just how far to take association with a culture (Should we dress like them? Eat the same foods? Do the same dances?). What it ultimately boils down to is that in order to reach out to a people group and gain and audience, you must adopt some of the "harmless" aspects of a culture (in the hip-hop setting: clothing, style of music, etc) while shunning the "anti-God agenda" parts (such as the wicked lyrical content or immoral behavior and demeanors). 

NOTE: Certainly I am not setting aside the grace of God, and the fact that He moves the hearts of people regardless of what we do. 

But if we do not show respect to those we reach out to from a certain sense, how then can we expect them to show us any respect at all in return? Particularly when we go in with a "holier than thou" mentality and try to completely stand apart as though everything about them were evil and sinful. Certainly there is nothing sinful about wearing your hat cocked, or you jeans a little baggy..."*



Dude, Can't I quote this in the book that my boy and I are writting? Good stuff


----------



## ascottishsamurai

Roldan said:


> *"For years missionaries have struggled with the concept of just how far to take association with a culture (Should we dress like them? Eat the same foods? Do the same dances?). What it ultimately boils down to is that in order to reach out to a people group and gain and audience, you must adopt some of the "harmless" aspects of a culture (in the hip-hop setting: clothing, style of music, etc) while shunning the "anti-God agenda" parts (such as the wicked lyrical content or immoral behavior and demeanors).
> 
> NOTE: Certainly I am not setting aside the grace of God, and the fact that He moves the hearts of people regardless of what we do.
> 
> But if we do not show respect to those we reach out to from a certain sense, how then can we expect them to show us any respect at all in return? Particularly when we go in with a "holier than thou" mentality and try to completely stand apart as though everything about them were evil and sinful. Certainly there is nothing sinful about wearing your hat cocked, or you jeans a little baggy..."*
> 
> 
> 
> Dude, Can't I quote this in the book that my boy and I are writting? Good stuff



Are you serious?! I'd be incredibly honored, brother.


----------



## dcomin

ascottishsamurai said:


> For years missionaries have struggled with the concept of just how far to take association with a culture (Should we dress like them? Eat the same foods? Do the same dances?). What it ultimately boils down to is that in order to reach out to a people group and gain and audience, you must adopt some of the "harmless" aspects of a culture (in the hip-hop setting: clothing, style of music, etc) while shunning the "anti-God agenda" parts (such as the wicked lyrical content or immoral behavior and demeanors).
> 
> NOTE: Certainly I am not setting aside the grace of God, and the fact that He moves the hearts of people regardless of what we do.
> 
> But if we do not show respect to those we reach out to from a certain sense, how then can we expect them to show us any respect at all in return? Particularly when we go in with a "holier than thou" mentality and try to completely stand apart as though _everything_ about them were evil and sinful. Certainly there is nothing sinful about wearing your hat cocked, or you jeans a little baggy...



Well said, young man! You must have very wise parents. 

Let's not forget this passage either...



> *1 Corinthians 9:19-23* For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; 22 to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 Now this I do for the gospel's sake, that I may be partaker of it with you.


----------



## Roldan

dcomin said:


> Well said, young man! You must have very wise parents.



I'm assuming your his pops? lol your a funny cat


Let's not forget this passage either...



> *1 Corinthians 9:19-23* For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; 22 to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 Now this I do for the gospel's sake, that I may be partaker of it with you.
Click to expand...


Definately


----------



## Roldan

ascottishsamurai said:


> Roldan said:
> 
> 
> 
> *"For years missionaries have struggled with the concept of just how far to take association with a culture (Should we dress like them? Eat the same foods? Do the same dances?). What it ultimately boils down to is that in order to reach out to a people group and gain and audience, you must adopt some of the "harmless" aspects of a culture (in the hip-hop setting: clothing, style of music, etc) while shunning the "anti-God agenda" parts (such as the wicked lyrical content or immoral behavior and demeanors).
> 
> NOTE: Certainly I am not setting aside the grace of God, and the fact that He moves the hearts of people regardless of what we do.
> 
> But if we do not show respect to those we reach out to from a certain sense, how then can we expect them to show us any respect at all in return? Particularly when we go in with a "holier than thou" mentality and try to completely stand apart as though everything about them were evil and sinful. Certainly there is nothing sinful about wearing your hat cocked, or you jeans a little baggy..."*
> 
> 
> 
> Dude, Can't I quote this in the book that my boy and I are writting? Good stuff
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you serious?! I'd be incredibly honored, brother.
Click to expand...


Coo brother, you checked out the video yet?


----------



## ascottishsamurai

Roldan said:


> Coo brother, you checked out the video yet?



Naw, I can't get the Google video to play on the mac that I'm using right now. Is it up on youtube maybe? Or could you email it to me? I'd really like to watch it.


----------



## MrMerlin777

Rap is not high on my list of things I enjoy. Just not my cup of tea, particullarly the gangsta stuff. I'm refering to the sound BTW not the lyrics. Rap like many art forms has several subgenres. I'm probably old but as far as Rap goes (when I listen to it which isn't very often) I prefer old school along the lines of Grand Master Flash and the Furious Five.


----------



## Roldan

MrMerlin777 said:


> Rap is not high on my list of things I enjoy. Just not my cup of tea, particullarly the gangsta stuff. I'm refering to the sound BTW not the lyrics. Rap like many art forms has several subgenres. I'm probably old but as far as Rap goes (when I listen to it which isn't very often) I prefer old school along the lines of Grand Master Flash and the Furious Five.



NAw man, thats the best stuff! Afrikka Bambata, Melly Mel, RunDMC(my favorite)


----------



## Roldan

ascottishsamurai said:


> Roldan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Coo brother, you checked out the video yet?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Naw, I can't get the Google video to play on the mac that I'm using right now. Is it up on youtube maybe? Or could you email it to me? I'd really like to watch it.
Click to expand...


I tried uploading to youtube but they rejected it cuz it was too long, so Idon't know how to spit it up in parts. I can try to email it to you, which email?


----------



## Roldan

How come the video's not working in here anymore?


----------



## ascottishsamurai

Roldan said:


> How come the video's not working in here anymore?



Hmm...maybe it wasn't just me. If you nobody can fix it, hit me at [email protected] if you would. My other account ([email protected]) just got blasted with like one hundred and forty spam messages earlier...so I wanna make sure that everything is okay on it. lol.

As for rap styles, I really like to listen to dirty south and midwest, but underground is where it's at...and the dirty has been so overused too. It's starting to get old.

Another good rapper is Flame. The lyrics to the song "Godhead" are amazing. Check 'em out on my blog at The Realm of my Imagination. It's one of the older posts, so click the little link thing at the bottom of the page to get to them.


----------



## Roldan

ascottishsamurai said:


> Roldan said:
> 
> 
> 
> How come the video's not working in here anymore?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm...maybe it wasn't just me. If you nobody can fix it, hit me at [email protected] if you would. My other account ([email protected]) just got blasted with like one hundred and forty spam messages earlier...so I wanna make sure that everything is okay on it. lol.
> 
> As for rap styles, I really like to listen to dirty south and midwest, but underground is where it's at...and the dirty has been so overused too. It's starting to get old.
> 
> Another good rapper is Flame. The lyrics to the song "Godhead" are amazing. Check 'em out on my blog at The Realm of my Imagination. It's one of the older posts, so click the little link thing at the bottom of the page to get to them.
Click to expand...


Yeah Flame is my boi, he's come along way.


----------



## Roldan

[video=google;1268949524121972302]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1268949524121972302&hl=en[/video]


----------



## ascottishsamurai

"Let me make the music of a nation...I care not who makes the laws." - Socrates

This is my friend Taylor doing a brief defense of Christian rap. Supposedly there will be another video soon that will be a more direct defense of it within Christian circles. 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mdNHX23Udao


----------



## BaptisticFire2007

I love Reformed hip-hop...that said, it is a little awkward to use it in public worship. I can't see my pastor down at the Tabernacle leading a verse from "Joyful Noise" by FLAME


----------



## Jimmy the Greek

So, would it be true to say that there is no beat, tempo, syncopation, music style, or lyric style that is ungodly in and of itself?


----------



## Roldan

BaptisticFire2007 said:


> I love Reformed hip-hop...that said, it is a little awkward to use it in public worship. I can't see my pastor down at the Tabernacle leading a verse from "Joyful Noise" by FLAME



You right brother, as much as I'm a hip hop head I would NEVER use it in worship. Now in the service that I lead and pastor I do remix the contemporary songs and hyms you would sing at your churches but with well balanced original hiphopish RnB intrumental twist to it. But as for rapping or freestylin in a worship service, I wouldn't because I think that would be taking it too far. But thats just me


----------



## Roldan

Gomarus said:


> So, would it be true to say that there is no beat, tempo, syncopation, music style, or lyric style that is ungodly in and of itself?



True. Just because Satan takes God's gift of music and the arts and distorts it and uses it to decieve doesn't logically follow that any type of music is inherently evil or ungodly.


----------



## Sonoftheday

I was not even aware there was such a thing as reformed rap. I do not listen to music very often, but whenever I do I listen to all types of music so long as they are not too lyrically disgusting. I have heard some Christian hip hop artists such as Toby Mac, John Reuben, Grits, and KJ-52. But so far as I can tell from what Ive heard none of them are reformed. I actually used to listen John Reuben quite a bit I enjoyed mellow raps about random things.

Who are some popular Reformed rappers that might come on the local "Christian" radio station?


----------



## Roldan

Sonoftheday said:


> I was not even aware there was such a thing as reformed rap. I do not listen to music very often, but whenever I do I listen to all types of music so long as they are not too lyrically disgusting. I have heard some Christian hip hop artists such as Toby Mac, John Reuben, Grits, and KJ-52. But so far as I can tell from what Ive heard none of them are reformed. I actually used to listen John Reuben quite a bit I enjoyed mellow raps about random things.
> 
> Who are some popular Reformed rappers that might come on the local "Christian" radio station?



Reform Ordinance, ChristCentric, SHai Linne, Flame, Azriel, Timothy Brindle, Believen Stephen, CrossMovent(just calvinist) , Truth(Calvinist), Everyday Process(Calvinist)


----------



## thywillnotminebedone

Jie-Huli said:


> thywillnotminebedone said:
> 
> 
> 
> so, what do you think of guys taking reformed theology and rapping about it? the rapper i am talking about is shai linne. i just came across him, to my surprise the lyrics are very biblical. so, is that ok?
> 
> here is a link to my blog where you can hear a song if you like
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At the risk of sounding like a curmudgeon (though I am actually much too young to be a curmudgeon), I would have to answer your question with a resounding "No", it is not ok to mix biblical lyrics with rap or other such worldly music. I do not wish to offend any here (especially as I have not posted a great deal and most people do not know me well), and am reluctant to even post at all on this thread, but given the overwhelming preponderance of people who have posted to the opposite conclusion (other than a couple of dissenting voices), I decided to respond to at least help give a little balance to the discussion.
> 
> I do not doubt that many people involved in this sort of thing are well-meaning, but the thing itself is inherently wrong and unbiblical and, I believe, a force most destructive to deep godliness and compromising the testimony of vast numbers of professing Christians.
> 
> Simply put, the things of God are always to be handled with great reverence, this is a vital Scriptural principle, and it is assuredly not reverent to take lyrics concerning the things of God and set them to music which is intricately tied to a profane, worldly culture built on rebellion, sensuality, immorality and anarchy. While I am sure that people who listen to a great deal of rap and hip hop music can cite examples of "positive" messages here and there in the originators of those music types, there is no question that the values which people generally associate with them are not God-honouring. By and large, the people propelling those musical genres are doing so with a very anti-moral, anti-God agenda, so why in the world would Christians want to be associated with them in any way? We are to come out from the world, for friendship with the world is enmity with God. We are to avoid even the appearance of evil. Why then would we copy the world's music and even try to associate God's name with it? With all gentleness, I must say that this seems like nothing less than taking God's name in vain, for God has never intimated in His Word that His name should be associated with such things.
> 
> Quite the contrary, a principle found throughout the whole of Scripture is that the people of God must be set apart, and that the sacred must be set apart from the profane. God has always forbidden his people from borrowing from the immoral aspects of the heathen cultures around them.
> 
> While I know that the "regulative principle of worship" applies most directly only to stated times of worship, I believe that its principle applies always in the sense that the things of God should be sung about only according to the standards set out in God's Word, which rap and hip hop styles clearly fail to meet.
> 
> Finally, I would just say that music is not neutral. There is a definite moral content to beats and rhythms, both due to the cultures they are identified with and due to the affections and feelings which they excite, and it would seem clear that certain musical styles are simply not appropriate means to convey or discuss the things of God.
> 
> And it is certainly not necessary to adopt these styles in order to reach the youth generation. God's sovereignty is great enough to conquer people's hearts through the pure preaching of His Word.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Jie-Huli
Click to expand...


I am on board with your statement that music is not neutral. I have talked with people in my church about this and a lot of people disagree, but being a singer for so long I know better. Also, when you said "a principle found throughout the whole of Scripture is that the people of God must be set apart, and that the sacred must be set apart from the profane. God has always forbidden his people from borrowing from the immoral aspects of the heathen cultures around them." how are we to understand what is immoral and what is not if it's something the bible is silent on?(I am not referring to music, I do not think the bible is silent at all when it comes to music)


----------



## Tim

I would just like to chime in here with my thoughts.

I think we need to exercise caution in getting into things like rock and rap. If you go back to the birth of rock and roll music in the 50's, you will find that rebellion is a theme that is always associated with it. In the 60's and 70's, drugs were so associated with this form of music that you would not be able to separate the two. The rock we have today is a descendant of what began decades ago. As such, there is an intrinsic sinful element that is essential to this musical form. There are dangers there that we ought to recognize. 

I know less about the development of rap, but I suspect that themes of gangsterism, drugs, etc. are also tightly woven into the fabric of that music. The other thing is that I wonder if the constant throbbing beat has effects of putting people into a sort of trance.

Admittedly, there will be gray areas on the fringes of these musical forms.

But, as to whether rap is reverent enough for Christianity, I say no. Over the last few years, my interest in such forms of music has almost completely disappeared. I just don't find it is edifying in any way. And I used to _love_ classic rock.

I would be quite hesitant to say that these art forms can be redeemed. I agree with those who believe that musical forms are not inherently neutral. 

Okay, let me have it!


----------



## BobVigneault

Tim, hip hop and rap were originally a means for telling stories. It gave a voice to young urbans to express themselves. In that respect, 'rap' is simply a medium. Like television, movies, radio, and other genres of poetry, the media can be abused. It can be used for good and noble purposes or it can be used to promote the lowest common denominator and ignoble ideas.

Of course we can call for caution but the caution is to beware of the wayward folks in our society who use any kind of media to promote detrimental sub-cultures and anti-family, anti-social behaviors and values.

Hip Hop and Rap as media are no more dangerous than music, movies, cell phones, the internet, etc.


----------



## BobVigneault

Furthermore, I do believe that headway, real progress, is being made in attempting to take back the genre and use it for spreading good stories and the Gospel (Good Speak). The Cross Movement, Christcentric, just to name a couple, are making great strides in using the genre to stimulate discussion and faith.


----------



## Roldan

And the main point in engaging hip hop to reform and redeem it is because ITS A CULTURE *NOT*JUST SOME TYPE OF MUSIC FORM. Did Paul shun the evil cultures of his day? Of course not but he engaged them and presented them the gospel, not to CHANGE the culture but to reform and redeem it. He made clear the SINS of the culture and rebuked it but never the culture as a whole. THis my dear brothers is the essence of the GREAT COMMISSION. MUSIC is of the Lord and we are taking it back!!

HOLLA!!!!!!!! 

I suggest watching the Reform Ordinance video


----------



## Tim

Roldan said:


> And the main point in engaging hip hop to reform and redeem it is because ITS A CULTURE *NOT*JUST SOME TYPE OF MUSIC FORM. Did Paul shun the evil cultures of his day? Of course not but he engaged them and presented them the gospel, not to CHANGE the culture but to reform and redeem it. He made clear the SINS of the culture and rebuked it but never the culture as a whole. THis my dear brothers is the essence of the GREAT COMMISSION. MUSIC is of the Lord and we are taking it back!!



Okay, this is a useful post. Thanks, Roldan. I have some serious questions:

1. What do you mean by 'reform' and 'redeem'?
2. What do you mean by 'engage'?
3. Can you 'reform and redeem' a culture without 'changing' it?
4. If rap and hip-hop were perfectly and completely 'redeemed', in what way would they be different? In what way would they be the same?

We need to address these questions before we go further.


----------



## Roldan

thywillnotminebedone said:


> Jie-Huli said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thywillnotminebedone said:
> 
> 
> 
> so, what do you think of guys taking reformed theology and rapping about it? the rapper i am talking about is shai linne. i just came across him, to my surprise the lyrics are very biblical. so, is that ok?
> 
> here is a link to my blog where you can hear a song if you like
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At the risk of sounding like a curmudgeon (though I am actually much too young to be a curmudgeon), I would have to answer your question with a resounding "No", it is not ok to mix biblical lyrics with rap or other such worldly music. I do not wish to offend any here (especially as I have not posted a great deal and most people do not know me well), and am reluctant to even post at all on this thread, but given the overwhelming preponderance of people who have posted to the opposite conclusion (other than a couple of dissenting voices), I decided to respond to at least help give a little balance to the discussion.
> 
> I do not doubt that many people involved in this sort of thing are well-meaning, but the thing itself is inherently wrong and unbiblical and, I believe, a force most destructive to deep godliness and compromising the testimony of vast numbers of professing Christians.
> 
> Simply put, the things of God are always to be handled with great reverence, this is a vital Scriptural principle, and it is assuredly not reverent to take lyrics concerning the things of God and set them to music which is intricately tied to a profane, worldly culture built on rebellion, sensuality, immorality and anarchy. While I am sure that people who listen to a great deal of rap and hip hop music can cite examples of "positive" messages here and there in the originators of those music types, there is no question that the values which people generally associate with them are not God-honouring. By and large, the people propelling those musical genres are doing so with a very anti-moral, anti-God agenda, so why in the world would Christians want to be associated with them in any way? We are to come out from the world, for friendship with the world is enmity with God. We are to avoid even the appearance of evil. Why then would we copy the world's music and even try to associate God's name with it? With all gentleness, I must say that this seems like nothing less than taking God's name in vain, for God has never intimated in His Word that His name should be associated with such things.
> 
> Quite the contrary, a principle found throughout the whole of Scripture is that the people of God must be set apart, and that the sacred must be set apart from the profane. God has always forbidden his people from borrowing from the immoral aspects of the heathen cultures around them.
> 
> While I know that the "regulative principle of worship" applies most directly only to stated times of worship, I believe that its principle applies always in the sense that the things of God should be sung about only according to the standards set out in God's Word, which rap and hip hop styles clearly fail to meet.
> 
> Finally, I would just say that music is not neutral. There is a definite moral content to beats and rhythms, both due to the cultures they are identified with and due to the affections and feelings which they excite, and it would seem clear that certain musical styles are simply not appropriate means to convey or discuss the things of God.
> 
> And it is certainly not necessary to adopt these styles in order to reach the youth generation. God's sovereignty is great enough to conquer people's hearts through the pure preaching of His Word.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Jie-Huli
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Also, when you said "a principle found throughout the whole of Scripture is that the people of God must be set apart, and that the sacred must be set apart from the profane. God has always forbidden his people from borrowing from the immoral aspects of the heathen cultures around them."
Click to expand...



First you must prove that the Origins of HipHop or even rock or whatever were originally immoral and profane. And even if they were it wouldn't matter because what Satan means for evil God can mean it for good.

Did not Paul use quotes of the heathen pagan poets to make known the true and living God when he addressed the pagan greek philosophers when he stood in the midst of Areopagus? (Acts 17:22-32, emphasis on verse 28) those poets were Epimenides, Cleanthes, and Aratus. Also Paul quotes Epimenides again in Titus 1:12.



> Acts 17:22-32
> 
> 22 So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, [2] 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. 26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, *28 for
> 
> “‘In him we live and move and have our being’; [3]
> 
> as even some of your own poets have said,
> 
> “‘For we are indeed his offspring.’ [4]*
> 29 Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. 30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”
> 
> 32 Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked. But others said, “We will hear you again about this.” 33 So Paul went out from their midst. 34 But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them.





> Titus 1:10-13
> 
> 10 For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. 11 They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach. *12 One of the Cretans, [6] a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” [7] 13 This testimony is true. *Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,




And the icing on the cake as already mentioned in this thread..



> 1 Cor. 9:19-23
> 
> 19 For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. *I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings*.



Paul became the culture without conforming to the sins of that culture.


Second, yes we must be set apart BUT NOT DE-PART.






> how are we to understand what is immoral and what is not if it's something the bible is silent on?(I am not referring to music, I do not think the bible is silent at all when it comes to music)



The bible is not silent on immorality. What we must look at is the PRINCIPLES of sin found in the bible and apply them. For example, does the bible clearly state that smoking weed is immoral? No. But we know the SIN of drunkeness is immoral and is applied to getting high, a dry drunkeness.

Hope this helps


----------



## Roldan

Tim said:


> Roldan said:
> 
> 
> 
> And the main point in engaging hip hop to reform and redeem it is because ITS A CULTURE *NOT*JUST SOME TYPE OF MUSIC FORM. Did Paul shun the evil cultures of his day? Of course not but he engaged them and presented them the gospel, not to CHANGE the culture but to reform and redeem it. He made clear the SINS of the culture and rebuked it but never the culture as a whole. THis my dear brothers is the essence of the GREAT COMMISSION. MUSIC is of the Lord and we are taking it back!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, this is a useful post. Thanks, Roldan. I have some serious questions:
> 
> 1. What do you mean by 'reform' and 'redeem'?
Click to expand...


I should have said Redeem and Reform

But what I mean by Redeem is the same meaning Paul meant it....



> 22...I have become all things to all people, *that by all means I might save some.* 23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, *that I may share with them in its blessings.*



By Reform I mean in Theology.




> 2. What do you mean by 'engage'?



The same way Paul meant it....



> *1 Cor. 9:19-23
> 
> 19 For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings. *






> 3. Can you 'reform and redeem' a culture without 'changing' it?



Depends what we are changing. What needs to be changed its the unregenerate sinful hearts and the gross sins that accompany it which of course would include its pagan philosophies but changing the way they dress or their language and their music in unnecessary cause its not sinful UNLESS its because of a pagan ritual which of course is idolatry therefore sin. When you go to Africa and engage their culture, what is our goal? To present the gospel and save and let the renewing of their mind via regeneration naturally change their heathenisms, are we now going to tell these African tribes that they now must adopt western European or American culture and wear suits and ties, jeans etc....and get rid of thier drums and intruments and exchange them for classical music, pipe organs etc...? of course not. This principle goes for any culture.





> 4. If rap and hip-hop were perfectly and completely 'redeemed', in what way would they be different? In what way would they be the same?



Different? the sinful customs as mentioned above.

Same? Language, clothing, music, and customs that are NOT sinful. 

More questions are welcomed brother.


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## VictorBravo

Ivan said:


> Reepicheep said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> 
> I like chicken raps..they're mighty tasty.
> 
> 
> 
> Yo, I'm Big John C. and I'm hear to see,
> Why even pray, it's predestined anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stick to your chicken raps, your ryhme isn't fly (mostly because it doesn't ryhme).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I believe he meant "say".
Click to expand...


Come on guys! Haven't you heard of Internal Rhyme?

I guess Pergy is just a bit too sophisticated of a poet for these parts.


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## Roldan

this is my favorite smiley, who gets their own smiley? only the most awesomest awesome homie in puritan land lol 


bump


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## Tim

Roldan said:


> But what I mean by Redeem is the same meaning Paul meant it....
> ...
> By Reform I mean in Theology.
> ...
> The same way Paul meant it....
> ...
> Depends what we are changing. What needs to be changed its the unregenerate sinful hearts and the gross sins that accompany it which of course would include its pagan philosophies but changing the way they dress or their language and their music in unnecessary cause its not sinful UNLESS its because of a pagan ritual which of course is idolatry therefore sin. When you go to Africa and engage their culture, what is our goal? To present the gospel and save and let the renewing of their mind via regeneration naturally change their heathenisms, are we now going to tell these African tribes that they now must adopt western European or American culture and wear suits and ties, jeans etc....and get rid of thier drums and intruments and exchange them for classical music, pipe organs etc...? of course not. This principle goes for any culture.
> ...
> Different? the sinful customs as mentioned above.
> ...
> Same? Language, clothing, music, and customs that are NOT sinful.



I think there is some begging of the question here. You are claiming that what you are suggesting is just like what the apostle Paul meant. But I don't see that you have adequately made the connection. That is why I asked what does it mean to 'redeem' (in this day and age). As well, you mention that changing music is unnecessary because it is not sinful unless it is of pagan origin. But that is precisely the (unresolved) question at hand.

This issue, as I understand how it has been defined earlier, is whether it is suitable to use rap music as a vehicle for spiritual good or to communicate spiritual truth. It is not adequate simply to state that music is neutral, therefore it is okay. Additionally, whether God Himself in His sovereign ordering of things can use it for good is not the question either (God uses sin for good, but we are not to sin).

Let me quote something posted earlier by Ben (ascottishsamurai) that I think is important here:



> But then something happened that changed the genre. Musically, the beats became more suggestive and tried to stir feelings of pride within the heart. The lyrics simply changed to match. It became a self-glorifying culture.



I understand that he stated that originally the music was not like this (perhaps that is true), but this quote captures what I have felt about rock and rap after my conversion. These musical forms always made me feel like I didn't need God; that I was strong enough on my own and could do anything. That is why I stay away from it - it is spiritually destructive. I don't see how you can change the music to make this not be the case.

The other thing that has not yet mentioned is melody. Consider this well-known verse:

Eph 5:19 addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart...

The word translated 'melody' (according to Strong's) is to use a stringed instrument/sing/melody. Rap does not have melody, by the very nature of the form. It is not singing. There seems to be divine warrant to deliver truth to one another using song, but rap does not satisfy this. There is also divine warrant to read and preach, but rap does not seem to satisfy this either.

My conclusion is that rap is not compatible with reformed doctrine. I don't see how it can be a reverent vehicle to communicate Biblical truth.


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## Tim

Jie-Huli said:


> I will just say, though, that I do not really agree with the premise that we can look at any musical style in a vacuum . . . if its origin is in an ungodly sub-culture, then it would seem to me at least a good and necessary inference from Scripture that it is not to be adopted for conveying God's Word.



 Well said.


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## Roldan

Tim said:


> I think there is some begging of the question here. You are claiming that what you are suggesting is just like what the apostle Paul meant. But I don't see that you have adequately made the connection. That is why I asked what does it mean to 'redeem' (in this day and age).



With all due respect sir as a brother in Christ and all, but you can't just state you disagree with my interpretation and then offer no alternative. I am very confident that I am in good company in Paul's meaning of the passages I presented, if need be I can provide more extensive exegesis on the passages by our Historical and modern Reform scholarly bretheren.

Also to "redeem" is the same in ANY day and age because the root of humanities evils come from the same depraved heart therefore the remedy is the same simply the Gospel of Jesus Christ hence the need to redeem culture in Paul's day and age is the same need in our day and age.




> As well, you mention that changing music is unnecessary because it is not sinful unless it is of pagan origin. But that is precisely the (unresolved) question at hand.
> 
> This issue, as I understand how it has been defined earlier, is whether it is suitable to use rap music as a vehicle for spiritual good or to communicate spiritual truth. It is not adequate simply to state that music is neutral, therefore it is okay. Additionally, whether God Himself in His sovereign ordering of things can use it for good is not the question either (God uses sin for good, but we are not to sin).
> 
> Let me quote something posted earlier by Ben (ascottishsamurai) that I think is important here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But then something happened that changed the genre. Musically, the beats became more suggestive and tried to stir feelings of pride within the heart. The lyrics simply changed to match. It became a self-glorifying culture.
Click to expand...


ANd? What does this prove? I think this even gives further burden of proof to my position. If it BECAME a self-glorifying culutre then why not present Christ and disciple this culture/nation to a God-glorifying culture?



> I understand that he stated that originally the music was not like this (perhaps that is true), but this quote captures what I have felt about rock and rap after my conversion. These musical forms always made me feel like I didn't need God; that I was strong enough on my own and could do anything. That is why I stay away from it - it is spiritually destructive. I don't see how you can change the music to make this not be the case.



This is an argument based on your personal experience but doesn't prove anything I said to be in error. Thats like telling me its wrong to drink wine or beer because you usto be an alcholic but now stay away from it and therefore wrong for everyone. Again this is just your personal preference and I respect that but it does not logically follow that its ALL bad.

Through my music what I have seen is drug dealers and thugs coming to Christ and then I further disciple them to sound doctrine, thats if we are going to use the personal experience argument. But nevertheless it has been an instrument in bring a culture to the Holiness of God and teaching them what the first question of the shorter catechism means..



> 1. What is the Chief end of man?
> 
> A. To Glorify God and to enjoy Him forever.





> The other thing that has not yet mentioned is melody. Consider this well-known verse:
> 
> Eph 5:19 addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart...
> 
> The word translated 'melody' (according to Strong's) is to use a stringed instrument/sing/melody. Rap does not have melody, by the very nature of the form. It is not singing. There seems to be divine warrant to deliver truth to one another using song, but rap does not satisfy this. There is also divine warrant to read and preach, but rap does not seem to satisfy this either.



This begs a plethora of questions. I think though that you should do some research on the origins of Hip Hop before you can make such erroneous claims. Rap does not have melody? This is far from the truth, the very essence of rap is melody. It began as a form of singing and also uses stringed instruments but actually thats neither here nor there because Christian rap or Holy Hip Hop or Reformed Hip Hop whatever a person wants to call it, is spiritual and is included under "spiritual songs". There are African tribes that have been redeemed and do not used "stringed" instruments are you asserting that their worship is not acceptable to God? I hope not.



> My conclusion is that rap is not compatible with reformed doctrine. I don't see how it can be a reverent vehicle to communicate Biblical truth.



But you see sir that the problem is that you haven't proven your conclusion exegetically or have offered any alternative exegesis to my, according to you, wrong meaning of Paul and have only based your whole argument on personal preference. 

All culture must be redeemed not entirely changed into western European culture.


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## Roldan

Tim said:


> Jie-Huli said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will just say, though, that I do not really agree with the premise that we can look at any musical style in a vacuum . . . if its origin is in an ungodly sub-culture, then it would seem to me at least a good and necessary inference from Scripture that it is not to be adopted for conveying God's Word.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well said.
Click to expand...


Whats interesting is that neither you nor Jie have proven any of these mere assertions and have based an argument on an erroneous premise therefore tearing down a strawman. BUT even if this premise was true, it still wouldn't nullify the fact that Paul used ungodly poets of a culture to convey God's Word, and this point that I made hasn't even been touched but actually ignored.


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## Tim

I have waited a few days to post my reply because I wanted to think carefully about this. Let me say that I have no doubt of the sincerity of those who think it appropriate to use rap music as some sort of ministry. It is also hard for me to post my comments because there are evidently people on the Puritan Board who are already engaged in these things that I would disagree with. However, the question has willingly been posed in the original post and I will continue to contribute to this discussion as best I can.

Once again, I believe the issue is whether rap music is an appropriate and reverent vehicle to communicate spiritual truth.

I will primarily be addressing recent comments made by Roldan, since he has taken the time to give his perspective on my arguments. I surely do appreciate your contribution to this discussion, brother! 

1. I really think that the important issue regarding rap is that today it is associated with immorality and profanity, even if not all artists participate in this. The association is strong; no one should deny this. If you use rap to communicate spiritual truth, you will simply be using a vehicle that most people associate with immorality and profanity, even if some artists don’t participate in that immorality. As such, it would appear to be a strange mix of worldly and spiritual matter; darkness and light, so to speak. 

2.	That the apostle Paul quoted Greek literature is neither here nor there, since it does not represent adopting an entire artistic genre to use in communication of truth. He quoted. That’s all. He didn’t link up with those philosophers and write poetry in their style to communicate his message.

3.	The most important issue is what it means when the apostle Paul says


> I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.


 None of us would disagree that this is a principle by which to live. Where we do disagree, however, is what it means to 'become all things to all people'. Some might say that it is appropriate to become a rapper to save rappers. But if we substitute to get, “become a prostitute to save prostitutes”, it can now easily be seen that there is a limit to the application of this verse. That is, there _clearly_ are some things that one should not participate in even though they desire to do good for those who do them. Now, if you say, “but prostitution is not appropriate; rap is appropriate”, you are _begging the question_ because the appropriateness of rap is precisely the issue being discussed. My argument for this question is given in point number 1. 

4.	I am glad that drug dealers and thugs have been coming to Christ under your ministry, Roldan. I don’t deny that we should praise God for this fact and thank Him for your ministry. South Florida does indeed need you. It’s difficult for me to present my views in this thread because I know that there are people like you who are already doing these things, so it sounds like I am criticizing your ministry. Let me stress that I want my comments to be general in nature rather than directed toward you. We just don’t want to be pragmatic on this (I am not accusing anyone of pragmatism, I am just making the statement). 

5.	As to the comment that 


> the essence of rap is melody


 I am obviously missing something if this is the case. I thought I knew what rap was.

6.	As to African tribes not using stringed instruments in worship, I didn’t think we were discussing worship. If we were, I would simply say that I believe in exclusive psalmody and a capella singing (but that is a separate discussion).

I really don't know what else to say, except that I believe that the important verse here is 1 Cor. 9:19-23. One's actions will depend on how they _apply_ that verse. That is why I asked what it means to redeem and reform rap music in the year 2008. May God grant us all wisdom on this matter - that we would do things that are pleasing to Him and be powerful witnesses for the Lord Jesus Christ.


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## charliejunfan

Reformed Rap is fine as long as it causes you think of things that are edifying, I for one am a big fan of Shai Linne, he is so precise in his lyrics, when i listen to him it keeps me meditating on the realities of the Atonement. I have both of his albums, the Sola Christus Project and The Atonement(there is a very good song on particular atonement) his albums can be purchased at lampmode.com Christian Liberty! if it causes pure meditation then its good if not then one should stay away


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## ManleyBeasley

I didnt even listen to rap until these reformed christian guys. I love LeCrae. Reformed Rap is probably my favorite christian music thats out there right now. I'm actually a guitarist and usually listen to Indie, Blues, and Classic Rock.


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## Roldan

Tim said:


> It is also hard for me to post my comments because there are evidently people on the Puritan Board who are already engaged in these things that I would disagree with. However, the question has willingly been posed in the original post and I will continue to contribute to this discussion as best I can.



LOL trust me I understand but remember the majority doesn't make a view right or wrong even though it does lead one to contemplate more on the issue.




> I will primarily be addressing recent comments made by Roldan, since he has taken the time to give his perspective on my arguments. I surely do appreciate your contribution to this discussion, brother!



Thank you sir, same here.




> 1. I really think that the important issue regarding rap is that today it is associated with immorality and profanity, even if not all artists participate in this. The association is strong; no one should deny this.



Your absolutely correct, I agree 100%. But thats Hip Hop TODAY it did not start out that way my brother, thats an important point. Unfortunately rap is associated with these evils because of the bad rap thats promoted without any clue of the positive rap that is underground that actually dominates the genre. Association with something doesn't logically follow that it is the same thing it is associated with. For example Jesus associated Himself with the sinners of His day by eating and drinking and fellowshipping with them, did that make Jesus a sinner? The Scribes thought so and condemned Him for it, but we know better.



> If you use rap to communicate spiritual truth, you will simply be using a vehicle that most people associate with immorality and profanity, even if some artists don’t participate in that immorality. As such, it would appear to be a strange mix of worldly and spiritual matter; darkness and light, so to speak.



Well, that would be your opinion and I respect that. But it doesn't logically follow that because there is immorality and profanity in Hip Hop that this is ALL Hip Hop is all about. So your reasoning here appears to me to be begging the question as to whether Christian Hip Hop is strangely mixing wordly/spiritual or darkness/light according to your contrast. But if I grant you that this is the case, then there is NO music genre that should be mixing their style of music with the spiritual since most associate all music that is secular as ungodly and immoral therefore any christian is to only listen to accapella lyrics and not listen to music at all.



> 2. That the apostle Paul quoted Greek literature is neither here nor there, since it does not represent adopting an entire artistic genre to use in communication of truth. He quoted. That’s all. He didn’t link up with those philosophers and write poetry in their style to communicate his message.



I would have to totally disagree with you here. He DID link up with those philosophers and used their written poetry and style to communicate the GOSPEL message, this is not to be overlooked. Not only did Paul quote Greek literature, he quoted from their philosophers who were referencing their idolatrous false gods such as Zeus and USED THAT to his own advantage for the sake of the Gospel, and this principle is what your missing here. I don't even quote non-christian anything, am I better than Paul in this respect? by no means but the emphasis of this point is extremely strong. I'm not saying Paul did it exactley the same as us but its the *PRINCIPLE* that we are to learn from.



> 3. The most important issue is what it means when the apostle Paul says
> 
> 
> 
> I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.
> 
> 
> 
> None of us would disagree that this is a principle by which to live.
Click to expand...


Remember what you just said, "this is a principle by which to live". Now you explain this principle for us please.




> Where we do disagree, however, is what it means to 'become all things to all people'. Some might say that it is appropriate to become a rapper to save rappers.



No sir, we are not saving rappers per se. We want to save the individuals in this culture. If rappers are saved, great but our philosophy has never been "become a rapper to save a rapper". This is not our argument.




> But if we substitute to get, “become a prostitute to save prostitutes”, it can now easily be seen that there is a limit to the application of this verse. That is, there _clearly_ are some things that one should not participate in even though they desire to do good for those who do them.



I can only respond to this by what I already have asserted concerning this...




> Paul became the culture without conforming to the sins of that culture.
> 
> 
> Second, yes we must be set apart BUT NOT DE-PART.



And....




> Depends what we are changing. What needs to be changed its the unregenerate sinful hearts and the gross sins that accompany it which of course would include its pagan philosophies but changing the way they dress or their language and their music in unnecessary cause its not sinful UNLESS its because of a pagan ritual which of course is idolatry therefore sin.





> Different? the sinful customs as mentioned above.
> 
> Same? Language, clothing, music, and customs that are NOT sinful.



Your argument was a strawman anyways but I think I answered in full.




> Now, if you say, “but prostitution is not appropriate; rap is appropriate”, you are _begging the question_ because the appropriateness of rap is precisely the issue being discussed. My argument for this question is given in point number 1.



Ok then we need to stick to this issue because you as of yet have proven your premise that Rap originally or is in essence immoral therefore evil. And your right I will say but prostitution is not only not appropriate but is A SIN, Hip Hop is not 





> 4. I am glad that drug dealers and thugs have been coming to Christ under your ministry, Roldan. I don’t deny that we should praise God for this fact and thank Him for your ministry. South Florida does indeed need you. It’s difficult for me to present my views in this thread because I know that there are people like you who are already doing these things, so it sounds like I am criticizing your ministry. Let me stress that I want my comments to be general in nature rather than directed toward you. We just don’t want to be pragmatic on this (I am not accusing anyone of pragmatism, I am just making the statement).



Coo brother much appreciated.



> 5. As to the comment that
> 
> 
> 
> the essence of rap is melody
> 
> 
> 
> I am obviously missing something if this is the case. I thought I knew what rap was.
Click to expand...


Rude awakening huh? LOL do some research on it thats if your interested anyways 



> 6. As to African tribes not using stringed instruments in worship, I didn’t think we were discussing worship. If we were, I would simply say that I believe in exclusive psalmody and a capella singing (but that is a separate discussion).



Well I didn't mean to just isolate the discussion to worship but to their musical culture in general, sorry bout that.



> I really don't know what else to say, except that I believe that the important verse here is 1 Cor. 9:19-23. One's actions will depend on how they _apply_ that verse. That is why I asked what it means to redeem and reform rap music in the year 2008.



It doesn't matter what time period we are in, fallen human creatures will be just that in all ages and in all cultures and that is what I have been trying to convey. Not that you don't know that but sometimes we need reminders.



> May God grant us all wisdom on this matter - that we would do things that are pleasing to Him and be powerful witnesses for the Lord Jesus Christ.



AMEN!!


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## ReformedWretch

Great site for reformed rap:

Lamp Mode Recordings

I like all of these guys recently really getting into Stephen the Levite. Listen to this song!

http://www.freshoutmedia.com/~lampmode/tracks/11 The Choir.mp3


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## Archlute

I still do not consider rap/hip-hop worthy of the label "music", and I probably never will. 

That must be due to my bigoted, imperialistic, Western view as to the very definition of music. It also probably has something to do with the fact that I graduated magna cum laude from a Bachelor of Music theory and performance program at a bigoted, imperialistic, Western-minded university. Cursed be all historical meta-narratives with their agendas of oppression, and the subjection of other people's stories to their arrogant and intolerant cultural snobbery!

Oh well


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## ReformedWretch

Adam, you should at least hear these lyrics! I am not a big rap fan at all but this stuff is great in my opinion!


----------

