# Abortion in the Church



## bwsmith (Jan 30, 2007)

Have we simply have settled for another lie? 

Abortion is a reasonable alternative given the problems an unplanned pregnancy presents, even for Christians. The overall numbers are falling from 1.6 million deaths to 1.3 Million -- but the number of evangelicals who are having abortions is increasing! 

http://www.moodymagazine.com/articles.php?action=view_article&id=549

It surely seems like too many Christians are comfortable with the solution that “terminating” the real problems an unplanned pregnancy presents. 

This AM I read Isaiah 41 – and was convicted how little I trust God in the situations when trouble overwhelms, forgetting that He permits the onslaught to teach me what He promised in Isaiah 40: 27-31 (paraphrased)

Why do you say, “God can’t know the troubles I face with this pregnancy!”

Do you not know? Have you not heard? There is a God who is more real than your problems; more reliable than your solutions – and smarter than your most brilliant insight! He can and will give you what you lack – and He will increase what seems to be diminishing. 

You will not soar through this experience unscathed – no matter which path you follow. You will stumble in grief, whatever course you choose. Yet if you trust the hand of the unseen God, who asks you to give this little one a chance, you will have what it takes, when you need it. 

May His people walk away from the lie that what is a fully legal and accessible solution is right. May we walk in such a way that seekers wonder why.


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## jaybird0827 (Jan 30, 2007)

Does this really surprise you???

Didn't you know - it's only a sin if you get caught?


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## bwsmith (Jan 30, 2007)

jaybird0827 said:


> Does this really surprise you???
> 
> Didn't you know - it's only a sin if you get caught?



Yes, and no . . . It breaks my heart that so many of our young people seek and find unsound counsel. How is it I can help bear another person’s burdens when the problems so many are struggling with wear me out, and frankly scare me.


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## Herald (Jan 30, 2007)

I've never changed my opinion on abortion. It is premeditated murder and should be prosecuted as such.


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## bwsmith (Jan 30, 2007)

BaptistInCrisis said:


> I've never changed my opinion on abortion. It is premeditated murder and should be prosecuted as such.



Agreed on one level -- How can you prosecute as murder what the society permits as expedient?


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## Herald (Jan 30, 2007)

bwsmith said:


> Agreed on one level -- How can you prosecute as murder what the society permits as expedient?



You can't, but it is murder nonetheless. The only hope is for the laws on abortion to change. But make no mistake, God views the taking of an innocent life as murder.


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## MrMerlin777 (Jan 30, 2007)

A troubling trend indeed! Abortion and the "abortion mentality" hurts all involved except the callus money grubbing Abortion industry personell (and it even hurts them in the long run).

The child is murdered. The mother is many times harmed in the process. And, though few people stop to think about this, the father often has "post abortion syndrome" (just as bad if not worse at times) like the mother involved. Such things can and do take years even a lifetime to put behind one. And yet we still push the idea of abortion as if it was an answer not the creator of problems and horrid sin that it ultimately is.


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## puritan lad (Jan 30, 2007)

What's worse, the church treats women who have abortions as "victims" instead of murderers. Sad...


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## BobVigneault (Jan 30, 2007)

puritan lad said:


> What's worse, the church treats women who have abortions as "victims" instead of murderers. Sad...



That's a bit of a narrow and harsh response there Scott. I understand your passion, in fact I share it, but I think your statement needs some moderation.
How should the church threat murderers then? What does the apostle/murderer Paul say about reaching out to sinners? What can we learn from King and murderer David in the Psalms.


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## bwsmith (Jan 30, 2007)

BaptistInCrisis said:


> You can't, but it is murder nonetheless. The only hope is for the laws on abortion to change. But make no mistake, God views the taking of an innocent life as murder.



I know, I wonder, though, how He views the church which too often winks at it.


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## jfschultz (Jan 31, 2007)

BobVigneault said:


> What can we learn from King and murderer David in the Psalms.



Nathan was direct yet tactful in addressing David about his sin. There was no rolling over and just letting it pass. But it did lead to Psalm 51 and repentance.


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## bwsmith (Jan 31, 2007)

puritan lad said:


> What's worse, the church treats women who have abortions as "victims" instead of murderers. Sad...



The one who repents, though foul his or her crime may be, is welcomed to His side. The church must preach purity with tears in her eyes and open arms, for our society teaches murder is a reasonable solution. 

Abortion, gossip, overeating, internet p0rnography. . . It is sad indeed.


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## BobVigneault (Jan 31, 2007)

jfschultz said:


> Nathan was direct yet tactful in addressing David about his sin. There was no rolling over and just letting it pass. But it did lead to Psalm 51 and repentance.




Nathan did indeed but Nathan was the prophet, the voice who spoke forth the Word of God Most High. I can call on God to send fire from heaven and destroy an entire city but it ain't gonna happen. I'm not a prophet.

The danger I see is that when we use inflammatory phrases like "any woman who gets an abortion is a MURDERER" or "God hates f*gs" we lose sight of the fact that God uses 'winsomeness' as a means of transmitting grace. We are very precise here when it comes to scholastic understanding of doctrine but we must also remember that we need to be practical and pastoral in its application. Jesus didn't say to the woman at the well, "You WHORE!" Technically, scientifically she was one. But the Lord's speech was seasoned with grace when confronting the sinner and filled with wrath when confronting the teacher of false doctrine.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 31, 2007)

I'll honestly say that it does not surprise me that "Evangelicals" are acting like Pagans. Therapy has replaced the Gospel in the pulpits (if there is a pulpit left). Only the Gospel gives the power to overcome sin. Even those Churches that claim to preach the Word and a "hard message" often preach the Law. The Law, devoid of our understanding of Christ's righteousness, does not produce righteousness by the doing.

I don't write this out of glee but sorrow and anger. God save us!


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## BJClark (Jan 31, 2007)

BaptistInCrisis;



> You can't, but it is murder nonetheless. The only hope is for the laws on abortion to change. But make no mistake, God views the taking of an innocent life as murder.



I'm not sure I agree with this statement....though that would solve "part' of the problem. But the real problem lies in the 'not really believing Pre-maritial sex" is a sin.

The only REAL Hope we have is for Parents, Preachers Sunday School teachers, and Youth Pastors to TEACH it's a SIN.

Fathers holding boys accountable for how they treat their daughters, and teaching their daughters how boys SHOULD treat them....that real love is not fully expressed by having sex. 

if you have children who are dating, set boundaries, no hand holding, no hugging, no kissing...and I realize that sounds extreme, but how are they going to learn and grow in the fruit of the spirit "Self control" if they are not encouraged to do so?

I was actually talking to my daughter about this the other day, and was explaining to her, if her and this young boy she likes can not control themselves in these areas, it will be even more difficult to control themselves later, when it is even more vital they do so.

I told her, you seem to think it will be easy to tell a boy NO, to sex, but it's
not, not when you know how good it feels and the feelings it opens up when you begin 'touching' even by holding hands. God created in us a desire to be touched, and there are different emotions that are triggered depending on WHO is doing the touching...and soon the hand holding and hugs aren't going to be enough.

I said, Ultimately, when you are placed in that situation, it will be an internal battle between what you are feeling inside about this person and giving in to your physical desires, and what God wants for you, and dying to self in this area, and it WILL NOT be an easy choice. Following God IS NOT EASY!!

I told her, I know her, and I know how she likes to please people, and how she doesn't like having people not like her, and in areas like this, where she really likes a boy and she really wants to him to like her...it will be even MORE difficult for her to say NO. I said, I know you believe it will be easy, just because you want to wait until your married, but because that is what you want, the battle WILL be that much harder for you, as satan is out to destroy you and your soul. And then I told her, that when that day comes and she finds herself needing to make that choice, that no matter what choice she makes either to follow after her own desire or God's desire for her, I will still love her, and I pray that she will feel confident and loved enough to know she can come talk to me...about those struggles. Because I will be here to support and encourage her to pray with her.

but seriously, more fathers need to step up to the plate and hold the boys and girls accountable, and not let them steal from God, the gift God has given them for their future spouses...the gift of themselves to be shared with nobody else...They need to know how precious a gift it is.

The fact remains though....our sins will find us out...


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## lv1nothr (Jan 31, 2007)

BobVigneault said:


> Nathan did indeed but Nathan was the prophet, the voice who spoke forth the Word of God Most High. I can call on God to send fire from heaven and destroy an entire city but it ain't gonna happen. I'm not a prophet.
> 
> We do have the "Word of God Most High" and IT still quickens the spirit if preached with power from the Most High. But men love their sin more than they love God. Even in the "church" unfortunately unless God replaces the stony heart with a heart of flesh!
> 
> ...


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## lv1nothr (Jan 31, 2007)

BJClark said:


> BaptistInCrisis;
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 
It does start in the home. We grieve the sin of abortion, but that had to be preceded with just what you say, fornication, parents not taking their duties seriously, children breaking the 5th commandment, and so on... It's a heart issue! 
Good for you that you are speaking with your daughter. We did that, my husband is committed to that, so far one daughter has married, praise God she and her husband did adhere to rules for self control, we're confident they were both pure, by God's grace. Don't give in to the dating game and the world's ways. We won't do it perfectly, but it's doable parents, don't give in. By God's grace our children will thank us in the end, the Lord will be glorified!! Pray, and talk to your children, both boys and girls...because if incarceration of the offender in abortion is do be done, both parties need to be in jail. 

The magistrate is not rewarding righteousness and punishing evil doers and so I'm afraid abortion laws will not change any time soon.


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## ChristopherPaul (Jan 31, 2007)

puritan lad said:


> What's worse, the church treats women who have abortions as "victims" instead of murderers. Sad...



and if we are consistent with our views on various methods of birth control then many in the church, including my wife and I, should be prosecuted for using the pill at one time in our lives.

Considering the reasons many in reformed churches are against various forms of birth control, abortion is most definitely rampant in the church, reformed and non-reformed alike.


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## BJClark (Jan 31, 2007)

lv1nothr;

I believe most parents are afraid to hold their kids to this standard, because they themselves failed to hold themselves to the same standard..and who are we to ask them to do what we failed so miserably at??

But I think that is the point, we can teach them from our own mistakes, sharing with them the consequences we suffered from our own sin. Not teaching them we expect more 'from' them, but that we desire more FOR them than we had, we want them to truly have a better life, not necessaarily with things, but with Christ at the center, and there is a huge difference.





> It does start in the home. We grieve the sin of abortion, but that had to be preceded with just what you say, fornication, parents not taking their duties seriously, children breaking the 5th commandment, and so on... It's a heart issue!
> Good for you that you are speaking with your daughter. We did that, my husband is committed to that, so far one daughter has married, praise God she and her husband did adhere to rules for self control, we're confident they were both pure, by God's grace. Don't give in to the dating game and the world's ways. We won't do it perfectly, but it's doable parents, don't give in. By God's grace our children will thank us in the end, the Lord will be glorified!! Pray, and talk to your children, both boys and girls...because if incarceration of the offender in abortion is do be done, both parties need to be in jail.


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## lv1nothr (Jan 31, 2007)

BJClark said:


> lv1nothr;
> 
> I believe most parents are afraid to hold their kids to this standard, because they themselves failed to hold themselves to the same standard..and who are we to ask them to do what we failed so miserably at??
> 
> But I think that is the point, we can teach them from our own mistakes, sharing with them the consequences we suffered from our own sin. Not teaching them we expect more 'from' them, but that we desire more FOR them than we had, we want them to truly have a better life, not necessaarily with things, but with Christ at the center, and there is a huge difference.



 and  
That is exactly what we endevour to do here in the Knox household. I'm sorry if my post came across as from one who'd attained perfection in these areas...believe me, it is only because of our failure and sinfulness before Christ. It is only because of what Christ has done in our lives, (oh if you knew all the He's restored to me and my husband and our family by His grace) that we want to instill His perfect law in our children's hearts and that they know that they are sinners, and need His mercy and grace, and most of all His spirit that they may walk in His ways!  

Lord bless


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## puritan lad (Jan 31, 2007)

BobVigneault said:


> That's a bit of a narrow and harsh response there Scott. I understand your passion, in fact I share it, but I think your statement needs some moderation.
> How should the church threat murderers then? What does the apostle/murderer Paul say about reaching out to sinners? What can we learn from King and murderer David in the Psalms.


I'm not saying that the church should condemn them to eternal Hell. We should treat them like any sinner in need of repentance.

Unfortunately, many "ministries" that I know of don't minister at all in regards to abortion. When they speak of the tragedies of abortion, they speak mostly of the women who have them, not the babies who were slaughtered. It may seem harsh, but the only "victim" of abortion is the baby, not the mother.

Hopefully, that clears things up.


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## BJClark (Jan 31, 2007)

lv1nothr;




> That is exactly what we endevour to do here in the Knox household. I'm sorry if my post came across as from one who'd attained perfection in these areas...believe me, it is only because of our failure and sinfulness before Christ. It is only because of what Christ has done in our lives, (oh if you knew all the He's restored to me and my husband and our family by His grace) that we want to instill His perfect law in our children's hearts and that they know that they are sinners, and need His mercy and grace, and most of all His spirit that they may walk in His ways!



Oh No, you weren't coming across as if you think you have attained perfection in this area, just as I hope I don't come across that way either...

I was just sharing because sometimes, we are so afraid to admit our own failures even to our children, that it comes across to them, that we have never known these struggles or that following after Christ is some how easy.

I know so many people whose parents were/are afraid to share with them the things they have been through, and the kids have this false image of their parents, and when they start to struggle in their own life and marriages, they feel like failures----because they don't have a 'perfect' marriage like their parents had. As far as they know their parents NEVER disagreed on anything, 
and it gives them a false impression about marriage and relationships.

And it's hard for these kids when they begin to realize, their parents weren't and aren't perfect, and I certainly don't want my kids or anyone else to make me into a 'god' thinking I'm some how perfect and never struggle, so I talk to them, and let them know...I know how hard it is, I've had to struggle through some of those same choices...so I know, it's not easy....and many times I failed, because I was so afraid of what other people would think about me, and it wasn't until I was an adult and growing in Christ, that I realized, it really doesn't matter what other people think, it only matters what God thinks, and as long as I am worried or concerned about pleasing other people, then I am in essence making them god over my life, because their opinion of me, becomes more important than God's.


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## BobVigneault (Jan 31, 2007)

puritan lad said:


> I'm not saying that the church should condemn them to eternal Hell. We should treat them like any sinner in need of repentance.
> 
> Unfortunately, many "ministries" that I know of don't minister at all in regards to abortion. When they speak of the tragedies of abortion, they speak mostly of the women who have them, not the babies who were slaughtered. It may seem harsh, but the only "victim" of abortion is the baby, not the mother.
> 
> Hopefully, that clears things up.




That clears it up a little however I disagree that the baby is the only victim. Usually these girls have been indoctrinated with such misinformation and they are coerced by parents and boyfriends. They are told it's not a life, it's just tissue, you can't take care of the baby it would be cruel to bring it into the world. These girls listened to a series of lies and didn't realize the consequences until they were pregnant.


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## lv1nothr (Jan 31, 2007)

BobVigneault said:


> These girls listened to a series of lies and didn't realize the consequences until they were pregnant.



Or until after the abortion has taken place.


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## puritan lad (Jan 31, 2007)

BobVigneault said:


> That clears it up a little however I disagree that the baby is the only victim. Usually these girls have been indoctrinated with such misinformation and they are coerced by parents and boyfriends. They are told it's not a life, it's just tissue, you can't take care of the baby it would be cruel to bring it into the world. These girls listened to a series of lies and didn't realize the consequences until they were pregnant.


Agreed, and this indoctrination is very sad, especially in the case of parents. However, abortion itself only has one "victim".


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## Calvibaptist (Jan 31, 2007)

How much of this stems from an unregenerate church membership?

Please don't attack me because I am a Baptist! I am just suggesting that if we didn't assume that all these people who darken our doors are believers, then we wouldn't be so surprised when they act like the unbelievers they really are.

It happens in both Baptist and Presbyterian churches. On the one hand, the Presbyterians have children who are most likely unregenerate who are considered functioning members of the church. On the other hand, the Baptists have adults who are most likely unregenerate who are allowed to be functioning members of the church.


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## BlackCalvinist (Jan 31, 2007)

puritan lad said:


> Agreed, and this indoctrination is very sad, especially in the case of parents. However, abortion itself only has one "victim".



I'll disagree on that. In many cases, there's usually at _least_ two victims - both mother and child. One a victim of murder, the other a victim of deception via folks who've lied to her about the nature of the 'blob of tissue' growing inside of her.

I dated a girl once who had no idea what was being done to her (she got pregnant @ 13). She had no idea about the emotional toll that it would have on her years later (nightmares), nor was she aware of the physiological toll it would have on her (she only came on once or twice a year for over a decade).


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## ChristianTrader (Jan 31, 2007)

BobVigneault said:


> That clears it up a little however I disagree that the baby is the only victim. Usually these girls have been indoctrinated with such misinformation and they are coerced by parents and boyfriends. They are told it's not a life, it's just tissue, you can't take care of the baby it would be cruel to bring it into the world. These girls listened to a series of lies and didn't realize the consequences until they were pregnant.



But if you wish to use that line of reasoning, then all murderers (or criminals in general) are victims at some level. No one comes out the womb saying, "I will kill/rape/maim/steal from Mr. or Ms. X when I grow up."

Now to be fair, I do not have a problem saying that all those who do various crimes are victims of some sort, the issue is that when it is time to lay down punishments, we must realize that the buck will stop somewhere. And in this case, the mother is a murderer and should receive the treatment of a murderer.

CT


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## ChristianTrader (Jan 31, 2007)

BlackCalvinist said:


> I'll disagree on that. In many cases, there's usually at _least_ two victims - both mother and child. One a victim of murder, the other a victim of deception via folks who've lied to her about the nature of the 'blob of tissue' growing inside of her.



On this line of reasoning, every criminal is a victim of deception at some level. They think said crime is the solution when it really is not. I would like to see how one can claim that the mother is a victim (of deception etc) unlike every other criminal. 

CT


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## Bandguy (Jan 31, 2007)

BobVigneault said:


> That's a bit of a narrow and harsh response there Scott. I understand your passion, in fact I share it, but I think your statement needs some moderation.
> How should the church threat murderers then? What does the apostle/murderer Paul say about reaching out to sinners? What can we learn from King and murderer David in the Psalms.



I don't believe the Church treated Saul as a victim. I could be wrong. Perhaps you could show me where they did? They did show grace to Saul, however.


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## BlackCalvinist (Feb 2, 2007)

ChristianTrader said:


> On this line of reasoning, every criminal is a victim of deception at some level. They think said crime is the solution when it really is not. I would like to see how one can claim that the mother is a victim (of deception etc) unlike every other criminal.
> 
> CT



Not really. There's a difference between unknowingly participating in a wrong act and willfully participating in a wrong act with full knowledge.


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## smhbbag (Feb 2, 2007)

> I'm still waiting to see when Congress passed such a law that says Abortion is legal?



Congress officially declared abortion legal for the first time during this administration, and "seconded" by the president.

The Partial Birth Abortion Ban was the first law to officially approve all the forms of abortion that _weren't_ banned. Essentially, "The other forms are not to be messed with, but we will cut off the Partial Birth types."

Until that point, only Supreme Court precedent was in abortion's favor. Now, there is direct, explicit consent from Congress on it.

Before and after this ban, the president signed budgetary measures directly funding abortion with taxpayer money.


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