# Choosing a seminary



## PointingToChrist (Jul 29, 2009)

Hello all,

I am currently attempting to weigh different factors in choosing a seminary, and also want opinions on the seminaries I am considering.

I am a member of the PCA, and would like to become a pastor in the PCA or OPC in the future (though I would consider another denomination - I just don't want to be fighting to get "back into" my denomination). I am married, my wife and I don't have much in savings, and we do have undergraduate student loan debt. We are both unemployed at the moment, and I'm praying to consider if that means the Lord wishes us to go to seminary sooner or push it off till later.

Cost is a factor - I would like to get scholarships, if possible. I would like to go to a seminary that will prepare me as a solid Biblical (and Reformed) pastor. 


Seminaries I am currently considering:

Mid-America Reformed
RTS (Charlotte)
Westminster
Covenant
Greenville
Gordon-Conwell

Mid-America is currently my top choice - though it's mostly because I haven't heard anything negative about it.

Greenville is a top contender, though I am somewhat leery of its unaccreditation (in case I wish to do further degrees at a Reformed university), and its seemingly isolationalist stigma from being the last bastion of Reformed Presbyterianism.

Covenant may yield extensive scholarships if I come under care of my presbytery - but I've heard it has a tendency to yield weak pastors (though I know some of my ability to be a pastor is what God has given me before going into seminary).

Thoughts?

Thank you.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jul 29, 2009)

Depends on what you want. Before you get any commercials from posters who are affiliated with one of the above or another Reformed seminary (nothing meant by that) let me just say that it matters a great deal where you go to seminary (take it from a guy that made a poor seminary decision).

Some questions.

1) Are you married? Do you have kids?

2) Does your Pastor/Presbytery have any place he/they recommend you go?

3) Does location/distance matter much?

There are a ton of other questions, but I'll stop here and let others chime in.


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## JML (Jul 29, 2009)

If cost is a consideration. This would be a seminary that you could consider.

The North American Reformed Seminary

Can't get cheaper than free. Plus a PBer is the president (Larry Bray).

(By the way, I don't go to seminary there but have heard good things).


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## PointingToChrist (Jul 29, 2009)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Depends on what you want. Before you get any commercials from posters who are affiliated with one of the above or another Reformed seminary (nothing meant by that) let me just say that it matters a great deal where you go to seminary (take it from a guy that made a poor seminary decision).
> 
> Some questions.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your reply.

I am married, no children yet, but hopefully in the next five years (which may affect the seminary timeframe). Pastor and presbytery have no preference, so far. 

Distance is not a factor, but location is somewhat. For example, Jackson, MS doesn't appeal to me, but Greenville and Charlotte do because of their proximity to my wife's family. Dyer, IN is also near a friend who is a pastor (not a paramount concern, but helpful). Covenant's location is also attractive.


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## SolaScriptura (Jul 29, 2009)

Mitch -

I want to encourage you - as long as you are healthy - to consider the Army's chaplain candidate program. 

If you want to "only" be a Reserve chaplain, you can get a significant amount of tuition assistance from the government. Plus, in between semesters you can go to the army installation of your choice (!) and get paid as a commissioned officer. I made about $25-30k each year I was in the reserves just working between semesters. Plus, once you commission into the chaplaincy you get a 10k bonus.

I'll tell you that my experience in the chaplaincy has been a God-send. I've gained a lot of experience very quickly. 

The experience is great, the service opportunities abound, the pay is great... 

For someone in your shoes, again, as long as you are able to pass the physical exam, this could be the answer to a lot of your concerns.

BTW - of the schools you listed I'd do either Westminster (specifically, WSC) or RTS- Charlotte.


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## Bookmeister (Jul 29, 2009)

I don't know why you have ruled out Jackson but let me offer a couple of things. 

My wife and I moved here far away from all our family, MN, IA, MO, and MI so I understand your dilemma about family.

1. The cost of living is very cheap here. 
2. You can get a 2 bedroom apt. on campus for about $500 a month, try that anywhere else. 
3. Miles Van Pelt is here!

Just some food for thought. I am just starting my second year here and love it. They have a new Biblical Exegesis emphasis in the MDiv that will prepare you very well for pastoral ministry.


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## lenflack (Jul 29, 2009)

SolaScriptura said:


> Mitch -
> 
> I want to encourage you - as long as you are healthy - to consider the Army's chaplain candidate program.


I'd second Ben's advice. 

I am a civilian (and have health issues that did disqualify me from enlistment), but pastor a local church body that includes many soldiers and airmen, just a few miles from Fort Drum, NY. 

They always need more chaplains, and are willing to do great things financially to assist qualified folks in getting their education. It's a great ministry field; certainly something to prayerfully consider.


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## Emmanuel (Jul 29, 2009)

I have interacted with faculty from both Greenville and RTS-Charlotte and they have impressed me greatly as godly men who are passionate in training others for the ministry of the gospel.

The President of Greenville, Joseph Pipa, has preached at my church on several occasions. He is a gifted preacher and very personable. As you probably know, the emphasis of Greenville seminary is on training preachers. Other seminaries have programs that would better accommodate those seeking to become professors, translators, missionaries, etc.

I have also had the blessing of sitting under the teaching of Douglas Kelly, who is a professor of systematic theology at RTS Charlotte. He is a great preacher too and preaches in a very simple, easy-to-understand, but thoroughly orthodox manner. One of the pastors at my church went to RTS Charlotte and loves Douglas Kelly. He affectionately recounts spending hours in Kelly's office when in seminary.


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## cbryant (Jul 29, 2009)

If distance is not a factor then Redeemer Seminary might be worth your time to investigate. It is formerly WTS Dallas and is located in Dallas, TX and the Southwest Church Planting Network is adjacent to the seminary. You'll be able to get access to Dallas Theological Seminaries (Evangelical) and Perkins School of Theology (Critical) libraries as well as University of Dallas library (strong in Philosophy).

Check out the website, if you have anymore questions just PM me.


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## Edward (Jul 29, 2009)

The Big 3 for aspiring PCA pastors used to be Covenant, RTS, and Westminster. Greenville might hurt you in some of the more liberal presbyteries. Most of the Gordon Conwell folks I have known were conservatives in the PCUSA. 

It looks like one of your criteria is to be near a large city.


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## Calvinist Cowboy (Jul 29, 2009)

If you are looking for an inexpensive education, (and particularly looking to be a pastor), then GPTS is the place to go. If you want to keep your options open in regards to further education (PhD), then it would be best to find a seminary that is accredited on a national level through regional accreditation or the ATS (such as MARS, which is a candidate for ATS accreditation). 

You should apply at multiple places just to see how much the school will offer in terms of financial aid. Westminster West awarded me a large scholarship, which is the only way I could afford to attend.


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## R. Scott Clark (Jul 30, 2009)

Mitch,

I'm happy to talk over options with you. Write me at 

rsclark at wscal dot edu

You should also contact the financial aid dept and admissions dept at WSC (888 480 8474). Mark MacVey is away right now but the financial aid dept can help you do some planning.

Best,

rsc


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## matt01 (Jul 30, 2009)

PointingToChrist said:


> I am married, my wife and I don't have much in savings, and we do have undergraduate student loan debt. We are both unemployed at the moment, and I'm praying to consider if that means the Lord wishes us to go to seminary sooner or push it off till later.Thoughts?
> 
> Thank you.



While it is great that you are prayerfully considering whether the Lord would have you prepare for the ministry, I would encourage caution. You have a wife to support, educational loans to repay, and are unemployed. Now is not the time to consider additional debt. Focus on finding a job that will allow you to take care of your responsibilities, while serving the church.


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## Sven (Jul 30, 2009)

Who can top a personal invitation from Dr. Clark? Go West, young man, Go west.


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## Ivan (Jul 30, 2009)

Sven said:


> Who can top a personal invitation from Dr. Clark? Go West, young man, Go west.



How 'bout I get Dr. Mohler talk to him?


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## CalvinandHodges (Jul 30, 2009)

Hi:

Though I may sound prejudicial I think that my seminary is the best:

RPTS: Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary

They have put together a faculty of pastors/scholars/teachers that is unmatched in any seminary. The professors have all at one time or another been pastors, they are well-knowledgable in their fields, and they are all excellent teachers.

To give you an example: My favorite class this past year was Greek - and I am not that good at languages.

Wherever you choose to go - I wish God's richest blessings upon you.

In Jesus,

Rob


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## Michael Doyle (Jul 30, 2009)

PointingToChrist said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I am currently attempting to weigh different factors in choosing a seminary, and also want opinions on the seminaries I am considering.
> 
> ...



Hello Mitch,

Are you familiar with LAMP seminary? It is through the PCA. Here is a link: LAMP Theological Seminary

I will be attending this fall through my church in Wisconsin. I see that there is a local prescence in CT. Christ Community Presbyterian Church is hosting this. The learning sire coordinator is Al Baker. PM me if you have more questions about this program as it has been a true blessing to me, who is unable to leave my area and current vocation and the price is as reasonable as it gets.


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## Andres (Jul 30, 2009)

sans nom said:


> While it is great that you are prayerfully considering whether the Lord would have you prepare for the ministry, I would encourage caution. You have a wife to support, educational loans to repay, and are unemployed. Now is not the time to consider additional debt. Focus on finding a job that will allow you to take care of your responsibilities, while serving the church.



I have to echo the sentiments of my brother Matt here. Not to pry, but if you are married and both you and your wife are unemployed, how are you currently supporting yourselves? I completely support your calling to pastor and am a firm believer in seminary, however I think your first calling is to support your family. 

On a personal note, I am recently married (May) and I too sense a calling to pastor. My wife and I applied to seminaries and were accepted to WTS. However, after much prayer and consideration we have decided to defer our enrollment until we are more financially stable. We have quite a bit of student loan debt. I presently have a good job and my wife (recent college grad) is looking for work. We plan on working and maybe doing some online courses before relocating and beginning seminary. I am seriously considering TNARS at this point, mainly because of the value. 

The best advice i can give you is to live frugally, save up some money, pay off as much debt as possible, and wait on seminary for a little while. Also try, try, try to avoid any more studen loan debt! If God has truly called you, then waiting a year or two to begin seminary will not affect that calling. Besides, the stress you will avoid will be way worth it. And, if you feel like you must begin studies now, then either personal study, TNARS, or other affordable online options can be considered. 

Whatever your decision brother, I will certainly be praying for you. I know it is not an easy decision, but our God is faithful!


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## jogri17 (Jul 30, 2009)

Whatever you pick choose based on with whom you want to study and work with. I am doing my undergrad (going to seminary after) in french linguistics and I choose this solely based on the fact of a local church and 1 prof.


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## CharlieJ (Jul 30, 2009)

*Just my thoughts*



PointingToChrist said:


> Mid-America Reformed
> RTS (Charlotte)
> Westminster
> Covenant
> ...



Disclaimer: GPTS student

I don't know enough about Mid-America to comment. RTS (Charlotte) has some fine educators but is quite inclusive. For example, many of my friends from Bob Jones aren't Reformed, but they go there for seminary. At RTS, I get the impression one may be more easily "lost in the crowd." Westminster is truly fantastic in academics, but the cost is definitely a prohibitive factor. I have heard a few older men remark that the attention to "making pastors" was a bit lacking there, but I'd check it out and decide for yourself.

Covenant seems to be hard to nail down. The several people I know affiliated with it are all over the spectrum from "great school" to "run away, run away." A campus visit and some study of the professor's publications would be good so you don't have to rely on second-hand opinions. 

Greenville is more specifically targeted for producing pastor-preachers, and they do a good job. I've personally been amazed at the difference in quality between entering students and exiting students. (At many grad schools people seem to come out pretty much how they went in.) Their program strengths are in pastoral, historical, and systematic theology. The 4 year MDiv allows for much more detail in some areas - 15 credits in historical theology compared to RTS' 6, for example. Also, the intense mentoring/internship requirements (something like 700 hours) really work alongside the curriculum to produce graduates who have a real idea of the ministry. I'm not in that part of the program (MA student), but I think it's great that they're "forcing" students to spend so much time directly under the supervision of experienced pastors. They learn a lot outside the classroom.

I don't know that Greenville is too isolationist. At least, I hear good things spoken about MARS, PRTS, RPTS (you know, other small schools with strong identities). They do have a strong sense of identity and mission, which you may or may not agree with. They're definitely not trying to become the biggest school by any means necessary. Regarding accreditation, I agree that it's a problem. I don't think it would bar you from doing further study at a Reformed school like WTS, but it could make it difficult to move outside of Reformed circles.


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## Marrow Man (Jul 30, 2009)

Apart from recommending a specific seminary, I would strongly encourage you to consider cost in your decision. You already mentioned that you have undergraduate debt. If at all possible, DO NOT go into debt in pursuing your seminary education. Let me repeat: AVOID DEBT if at all possible.

While I would not say that cost alone should be the factor, if you continue to add to educational debt, you may find yourself limiting your opportunities in the future. For example, you may find yourself having to turn down a call simply because the package is not large enough to support your family AND help you pay off your debt.

This is really one of the advantages that attending a denominational seminary will help with. Because I attended my denomination's seminary (Erskine), and because it is supported by the churches in the denomination, I was able to leave seminary without any debt. My first church was very small and could not offer a large package, but I was able to pastor there because I did not have a huge debt burden hanging over my head. Because you are PCA, I would suspect Covenant would be advantageous in this regard (you already mentioned scholarships available), and Greenville is both inexpensive and gives further breaks to PCA students, If I recall correctly. I think Mid-America is also relatively inexpensive, but even more so to URC students.

As was mentioned above, factor in the cost of living. The closer you are to a large city, the more expensive it will be (most likely). OTOH, Greenville doesn't cost that much to live in, and Jackson even more so. I'm not so sure about some of the other places.

That's just my , but I cannot stress enough the debt situation. I know of two specific incidents where pastors were hampered in their ministerial opportunities because of educational debt. My advice would be not to let that happen to you.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jul 30, 2009)

x 1,000,000,000


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## chaplee (Jul 30, 2009)

The Reformed world has many, many superb teachers in its varied seminaries. However, I'd add these comments:
- An ATS accredited seminary may help you down the road as you discover there are many ways to serve as a "Reverend", i.e., hospital, prison, hospice, law enforcement, business & military chaplaincies. Having a degree from an ATS school can eliminate one possible barrier in seeking such ministry opportunities.
- Seek a school with a strong preaching program. I personally like Covenant due to Dr. Chappell and others...but RTS/Charlotte has a wonderful preacher in Dr.Milton, too (President and Army Reserve Chaplain).
- Remember - if God is calling you to the ministry, He will provide for your family needs along the way. His "call" includes provision for jobs, finances, housing, etc. It may not be easy, but testimonies abound of His Sovereign assistance.


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## SolaScriptura (Jul 30, 2009)

chaplee said:


> The Reformed world has many, many superb teachers in its varied seminaries. However, I'd add these comments:
> - An ATS accredited seminary may help you down the road as you discover there are many ways to serve as a "Reverend", i.e., hospital, prison, hospice, law enforcement, business & military chaplaincies. Having a degree from an ATS school can eliminate one possible barrier in seeking such ministry opportunities.
> - Seek a school with a strong preaching program. I personally like Covenant due to Dr. Chappell and others...but RTS/Charlotte has a wonderful preacher in Dr.Milton, too (President and Army Reserve Chaplain).
> - Remember - if God is calling you to the ministry, He will provide for your family needs along the way. His "call" includes provision for jobs, finances, housing, etc. It may not be easy, but testimonies abound of His Sovereign assistance.




Doug - Wow! Glad to see you on the PB! But now I've got to watch my P's and Q's...


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## DanMcCormack (Jul 30, 2009)

Grrr...

I typed a wonderfully lucid reply, and then the upload timed out.



Anyway....


This thread has plenty of good information and advice.

We visited RTS-Orlando in March (it's dangerous for people living in PA to visit anything in Orlando in March). It struck me that if I became a FT student there I'd be far older than most students (I'm 47).

But I think we're in a point in life where it may be possible. I don't relish learning Hebrew and Greek (my first language was French and I'm still fluent, but that's different), and I really don't look forward to "starting out" in a completely new vocation at 50-something.

The RTS course on iTunes have been a real eye-opener, and I've been impressed with the lectures. I wish WTS would publish courses on iTunes so I could sample those as well.


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## Reepicheep (Jul 31, 2009)

I'm disappointed someone would categorize Covenant as turning out "weak" pastors. I wonder what is meant by _weak_? 

When people say "I've heard..." and have no first hand knowledge, all I hear is "blah blah blah blah blah". Pretty irresponsible in my opinion.

I would caution against receiving such an assessment without actually talking to several grads and visiting the place yourself.

Seminary is just part of what trains us to be pastors. No place you go will be complete in the training sense. I see it as more complex and longer term than that.


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## Edward (Jul 31, 2009)

Reepicheep said:


> I'm disappointed someone would categorize Covenant as turning out "weak" pastors. I wonder what is meant by _weak_?



Charitably speaking, perhaps it would be someone of limited experience. The senior pastor of the church where I'm a member certainly couldn't be called that.


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## Ivan (Jul 31, 2009)

Frankly, if circumstances were a bit different at the time I would have gone to Covenant in '78. I could have commuted to school, stay in St. Louis and received a good education. But it wasn't to be.


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## kvanlaan (Jul 31, 2009)

How about PRTS? 

PRTS

Studying under Joel Beeke? Uber-cool.

MARS is where we get most of our preachers from (and we've had a great student pastor from there, Jeph Noble) and so I have seen it produce great things, no complaints there!


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## Ivan (Aug 1, 2009)

kvanlaan said:


> How about PRTS?
> 
> PRTS
> 
> ...



And if I were and young man (and didn't go to Southern Seminary) I'd be headin' to PRTS and Dr. Beeke.


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## Reformed City Rockers (Aug 1, 2009)

Dude, listen to R. Scott Clark!!!

Westminster Seminary California is the best seminary in the world. You need a place that will teach you how to properly distinguish the law from the gospel! Plus SoCal weather rocks. Seriously in these critical times especially in the light of recent attacks on the gospel from Federal Vision, converted Roman Catholics and the Emergent Church you need to have a top notch academic presentation of the gospel and it's defense in this age.

peace

Reactions: Like 1


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## Romans922 (Aug 1, 2009)

I'm an RTS-Jackson grad in the PCA.

If you want to be a Pastor (and only a Pastor, not going on to doctoral work) and you want to go into the PCA/OPC then I would say #1 Greenville. Unaccredidation doesn't matter unless you are going to go on to doctoral work. church's don't care of it is accredited or not, they know the seminary. Like what is said above, you might be not allowed in some presbyteries (in the PCA) because of that. 

If you just want to be a pastor, i would say rule out Gordon-conwell all together. It seems to be liberal there (from my interaction with it) and it is very expensive to go to seminary there. 

RTS jackson, I think is okay if you want to be a Pastor, but you can do the doctoral thing if you want from there. Many do. RTS Charlotte would probably be the same, I wouldn't go to any other RTS campuses. Jackson is cheap vs. Charlotte which is much more expensive.


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## Marrow Man (Aug 1, 2009)

Andrew, are you free to state what presbyteries in the PCA would not be "Greenville-friendly"?


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## Damon Rambo (Aug 1, 2009)

How about Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary?


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## Calvinist Cowboy (Aug 1, 2009)

Marrow Man said:


> Andrew, are you free to state what seminaries in the PCA would not be "Greenville-friendly"?



Do you mean "presbyteries" in the PCA?


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## Marrow Man (Aug 1, 2009)

Calvinist Cowboy said:


> Marrow Man said:
> 
> 
> > Andrew, are you free to state what seminaries in the PCA would not be "Greenville-friendly"?
> ...



 yes, duly noted and corrected!


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## Presbyterian Deacon (Aug 3, 2009)

Ivan said:


> Sven said:
> 
> 
> > Who can top a personal invitation from Dr. Clark? Go West, young man, Go west.
> ...



 Our session wouldn't approve, and he probably wouldn't come "under care" of the Presbytery....


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## GD (Aug 4, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> If you just want to be a pastor, i would say rule out Gordon-conwell all together. It seems to be liberal there (from my interaction with it) and it is very expensive to go to seminary there.




1. Most GCTS grads are headed for the pastorate, and the godly M.Div. grads I know reflect well on their alma mater. Many are involved in ministry at our O.P.C. church in the neighborhood. Those who are confessionally Reformed are no more or less so than confessionally Reformed WTS grads in ministry I have known.

2. The "L" world tars some good people very unfairly. I've had a little interaction with GCTS too (Th.M., '09), and I didn't find it liberal, just denominationally diverse. 

3. Don't anyone assume it's too expensive without contacting the financial aid office. Like most well-established schools they offer scholarships to offset the stated tuition. I think I paid 50% of the stated cost, and lived inexpensively (relative to the area) on campus.

I won't trash the other schools mentioned - some are excellent places, and where God guided me to may not be where He sends you. May God bless you in your search, Pointing to Christ. Regarding acreditation, I would caution readers to remember that we don't infallibly know _now _what our needs will be _later_. 

Cheers!


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## PointingToChrist (Aug 6, 2009)

Thank you all very much for your replies and private messages to my search for a seminary. I only found Puritan Board recently, but I am very encouraged by such a large group of believers who take the word of God seriously.

My responses:

Backwoods Presbyterian: I am married, but no children as of yet. It is our hope to have children in the next few years, which may coincide with seminary if we were to go soon. Pastor and Presbytery have no recommendations as of yet. Location and distance matter somewhat. Charlotte is attractive because it is near my wife’s family. But, a place like Dyer, IN for MARS only has the quality for being near a friend in regards to location (which isn’t as strong of a pull as the seminary itself).

John Lanier: I have considered TNARS in the past, and it is still a possibility. However, I am somewhat skeptical of the viability of an unaccredited, completely-online seminary education. I don’t dispute the quality of its teaching, merely the framework.

SolaScriptura: My wife is very amenable to the idea of being a chaplain. Military is not at the top of my list, but it is not something I am ignoring, either. I’d like to chat with you more later on about your experiences.

Bookmeister: I have not ruled out Jackson, MS completely, but the location doesn’t appeal to my wife and me at this time. Perhaps that may change if the Lord opens doors pointing toward there.

cbryant: In regards to Redeemer (formerly WTS Dallas), I could be very wrong about this, but didn’t that seminary take in Peter Enns after his resignation from WTS Philly? If so, I’m somewhat leery of a seminary that would take in a person like that after the controversy, but if I am wrong, please forgive my error.

Edward: I wouldn’t say being near a large city is an absolute, just if it has relations to family or friends we know live near.

Calvinist Cowboy: Could you or anyone else explain accreditation for me? I saw the Department of Education’s website, but is it they who do the accrediting, or other bodies? And is there accreditation that would be deemed by another educational institution to be “not good enough?”

Dr. Clark – I will email you soon!

sans_nom: This is something we are praying and considering. On the one hand, I don’t want to presume the Lord will bless this if I jump into it, but nor do I want to delay a calling to be a pastor if that is the Lord’s will. I think scholarships may enter heavily into it. At the same time, I don’t think my Bachelors lends toward a promising career in Connecticut. Ministry aside, my “career” is going nowhere. Though it may be the Lord wants me in this situation, from a practical financial standpoint, waiting around may not build up funds.

Michael Doyle: I just heard of LAMP recently. I’m not sure if it is right for me, but I know Al Baker and will talk to him about it. I will also talk to you more about it.

Andres: The Lord has blessed us with friends, family (and the government) who have given us food, money, and other things to sustain us during our unemployment. It’s been such a blessing. I have (and still am) considering many of your suggestions.

Chaplee: A friend of mine who viewed the thread told me who you are! I’d like to speak with you soon.

Reepicheep: I understand your aversion to second-hand knowledge, but I don’t have the time or resources to visit every seminary, nor start taking classes with every one. I have friends who have seriously considered going or have first-hand interaction with Covenant grads. I have not made a final judgment on Covenant, but I respect those opinions of my friends who have close knowledge. I will be speaking to people from Covenant, however. 

Lenflack, Emmanuel, Sven, Ivan, CalvinandHodges, jogri17, CharlieJ, Marrow_Man, chaplee, DanMcCormack, kvanlaan, Reformed_City_Rockers, Romans922, DavidG: thank you for your comments.

Please continue to post as you feel led. I am still considering many things.


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## CDM (Aug 6, 2009)

G P T S

Sincerely,
a GPTS student


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## cbryant (Aug 6, 2009)

Mitch,

Redeemer did not take in Peter Enns. If you look at the web site, Peter Enns is not on the faculty at Redeemer. Also, to my knowledge there is no plan to bring him on the faculty.


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## Calvinist Cowboy (Aug 6, 2009)

> Calvinist Cowboy: Could you or anyone else explain accreditation for me? I saw the Department of Education’s website, but is it they who do the accrediting, or other bodies? And is there accreditation that would be deemed by another educational institution to be “not good enough?”



There are a few different types of accreditation. The first type, which covers most four-year public and private universities and colleges (as well as at least one seminary - WSC), is regional accreditation. There are six regional agencies that accredit post-secondary schools. These agencies are approved and regulated by the Department of Education. The names of them can be found at CHEA  Directory of Regional Accrediting Organizations. Schools that are regionally accredited are held to high standards in the quality of their education. 

A level of accreditation specific to seminaries is accreditation by the Association of Theological Schools (ATS). The ATS is a DOE-recognized agency which holds seminaries to high standards. Just about every major seminary is accredited by ATS. However, the ATS is thoroughly liberal, so just because a seminary is ATS-accredited does not mean that what is being taught there is biblical (PTS-lol). However, you know you'll get a rigorous education from such a seminary.

Another level of accreditation is that of groups of individual seminaries. For example, the Association of Reformed Theological Schools (ARTS) accredits GPTS, MARS, PRTS, and several other seminaries. These seminaries have banded together to provide and maintain a certain level in the quality (and the confessional nature) of their education. Such groups (like ARTS) are generally not recognized by the Department of Education. However, the schools accredited by ARTS are excellent schools with high quality educational standards. The down-side is that graduates from such seminaries may have difficulty in pursuing further education when applying to doctoral programs at other schools.

This means that if you want to go on after seminary to PhD studies at Oxford or Princeton, you will probably have a lot of hurdles coming from a school like GPTS. If you are looking for a place to train you as a pastor, then somewhere like GPTS is probably your best option. I came to Westminster Seminary California because it is academically stringent and has a reputation for producing godly shepherds of the Church. The best of both worlds.


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## Edward (Aug 6, 2009)

PointingToChrist said:


> cbryant: In regards to Redeemer (formerly WTS Dallas), I could be very wrong about this, but didn’t that seminary take in Peter Enns after his resignation from WTS Philly? If so, I’m somewhat leery of a seminary that would take in a person like that after the controversy, but if I am wrong, please forgive my error.



I have not heard any rumors to that effect, and he certainly doesn't show up on the faculty page. Redeemer Seminary Faculty

If you have ANY evidence of that, I'll be happy to follow up with one or more members of the board (I know about half the board members of the seminary, some better than others). There is also at least one student there who posts on PB; perhaps he can shed some light.


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## AThornquist (Aug 6, 2009)

Dude, Ben, that WSC dress code is...cool. Why am I reminded of a wood elf?


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## mvdm (Aug 7, 2009)

For clarification on the issue of accreditation, this is from Mid-America's website:

_Mid-America Reformed Seminary is a member of the Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools (TRACS) [P.O. Box 328, Forest, VA 24511; telephone 434-525-9539; email: [email protected]] having been awarded Accredited status as a Category III (Masters degree-granting) institution by TRACS Accreditation Commission on April 6, 2005; this status is effective for a period of five years. TRACS is recognized by the United States Department of Education and the Council for Higher Education Accreditation as a national accrediting body for Christian institutions, colleges, universities, and seminaries. TRACS is also a member of the International Network for Quality Assurance Agencies in Higher Education._


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## The Author of my Faith (Aug 7, 2009)

*Debt*



Marrow Man said:


> Apart from recommending a specific seminary, I would strongly encourage you to consider cost in your decision. You already mentioned that you have undergraduate debt. If at all possible, DO NOT go into debt in pursuing your seminary education. Let me repeat: AVOID DEBT if at all possible.
> 
> While I would not say that cost alone should be the factor, if you continue to add to educational debt, you may find yourself limiting your opportunities in the future. For example, you may find yourself having to turn down a call simply because the package is not large enough to support your family AND help you pay off your debt.
> 
> ...




I agree that getting into debt is not the best option. BUT if you really believe God is leading you to do this and you do not have the ability to pay for it yourself or are not able to obtain enough scholarship money to pay. Don't forget that God is ABLE to provide all your needs. (not wants, or foolish rash descisions, but geniune needs). If He is calling you to do this and you have sought Godly counsel from strong believers who also believe this seems to be the way to go then you might simply have to step out in faith and trust God. But again, in the multitude of counsel their is safety. That is my


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## Athanasius (Aug 7, 2009)

My alma mater never gets play, but she is small and weird - so I understand. OP, I'll throw in a plug for the Free Church of Scotland's Theological College - Free Church College Home Page - it's not practical, it's not sexy...but I will tell you that the men I see coming out of the American seminaries coming before my Presbytery don't have the kind of historical/systematic grounding that you'd get at the FC.

You'll get a classic Scottish Reformed Presbyterian education. It'll serve you well if you couple it with a missional drive. I don't know you, but I think the FC can be good for many.

In the USA I second the recommendation for Redeemer Seminary in TX. I'd probably go there if I had all my options laid out before me today.

An added bonus of the FC is that it is cheap (around 2500 pounds a year), the UK gives you free and good healthcare (we had our first daughter over there - wonderful care), and if you score one of the denomination's flats you can live pretty high on the hog on the cheap. You can get US student aid and your degree goes through the University of Glasgow. You also have full access to the New College library, which is extensive.

Please note that in the UK your Divinity/Theology degree is an undergraduate degree (second bachelors), as it was in this country until a few decades ago. No one in the UK offers an M.Div., they offer BD and BTh. degrees.

Cheers.


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## R. Scott Clark (Aug 7, 2009)

WSC is accredited by two agencies recognized by the Dept of Education:

1. WASC (Western States) which accredits colleges and graduate schools.

2. ATS (Association of Theological Schools)

We just just had a joint-team visit (ATS/WASC) and received a clean bill of health. The visiting team was very encouraging. Their main job is to make sure that we are fulfilling our promises to our students and that we're meeting certain basic academic and administrative standards (e.g. sufficient faculty, library, staff, and other resources).

Accreditation affects the ability of students to receive student loans, enter the military chaplaincy, and to attend graduate school among other things.

Some schools do not have an accreditation recognized by the D of E because of some scruple but some are not so accredited because they couldn't meet the basic standards required by the accrediting agencies. This second case is sometimes covered by rhetoric. Students considering an unaccredited school should think carefully about whether there is a legitimate reason for not being accredited or whether a school lacks a real accreditation (i.e. one recognized by the D of E) because it is simply a poor school and thus, likely, a waste of money. There are more than a few home made seminaries that are unable to provide the necessary education, that lack a qualified faculty, that lack the necessary library (and other) resources that are all too ready to take your money and give you a degree. 

I know that some folk don't like this analogy but I still think the med school analogy works. Why do we accept lower standards in our seminaries than we would for medical schools? Would you attend an unaccredited medical school with a sub-standard faculty and a sub-standard facility? Would you trust your health to a physician trained at such a school? Why should we entrust the care of our congregations to pastors trained at home-made seminary?


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## Athanasius (Aug 7, 2009)

R. Scott Clark said:


> I know that some folk don't like this analogy but I still think the med school analogy works. Why do we accept lower standards in our seminaries than we would for medical schools? Would you attend an unaccredited medical school with a sub-standard faculty and a sub-standard facility? Would you trust your health to a physician trained at such a school? Why should we entrust the care of our congregations to pastors trained at home-made seminary?



I have to agree with RSC - I think we get more than just our theology from our Scottish roots, we're also cheap! I don't know about you guys but I have on several occasions bought something for a "good price" that didn't actually end up working well and I spent more fixing it or replacing it with something, more expensive, that actually worked.

I don't mind cost being a factor - it was for me - but if you can't afford a real degree, save your money until you can. God is powerful enough to do his work while you get your finances in order so you can get trained properly.

If I were choosing a seminary today - I'd probably go down the list this way:
1.) Redeemer Seminary (their accreditation is in process - but they are being birthed out by WTS and I am not concerned on that one)
2.) Oak Hill Theological College
3.) Covenant Theological Seminary
4.) Free Church College
5.) RTS (Orlando or Jackson)

I would also consider WSC, RPTS, Gordon-Conwell, WTS, maybe even Erskine!

... Greenville, New Geneva and a number of others wouldn't be on my list. But then again, I probably wouldn't be on theirs either.


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## Marrow Man (Aug 7, 2009)

The Author of my Faith said:


> I agree that getting into debt is not the best option. BUT if you really believe God is leading you to do this and you do not have the ability to pay for it yourself or are not able to obtain enough scholarship money to pay. Don't forget that God is ABLE to provide all your needs. (not wants, or foolish rash descisions, but geniune needs). If He is calling you to do this and you have sought Godly counsel from strong believers who also believe this seems to be the way to go then you might simply have to step out in faith and trust God. But again, in the multitude of counsel their is safety. That is my



My  is that his is not healthy advice. The Bible does not condemn debt outright, but it strongly discourages it. One's feelings should not take precedent over God's wisdom (this sounds too similar to a congregant who once told me that he was discouraged over his daughters unbiblical divorce; when he told her that marriage was supposed to be for life, her response was "Oh, Dad, I don't think God would want me to be unhappy"). The Lord Himself condemned the idea of "stepping out in faith" by saying we are not to put the Lord our God to the test (Matthew 4; Luke 4). Certainly God is able to supply all our needs, but that does not mean we make rash decisions that affect us (and our families) under a terrible burden for many years to come.

There are other options. Perhaps working for a while to save money before seminary is an option. Working your way through school might be the way to go. Many have done this. Money did literally fall into my lap (so to speak) when I went away to seminary; it was the Lord's blessing, but He did so through earthly means, and all of this was well prepared before I even took my first class. If the Lord does indeed wish you to go, the funds will be there. But they might not be immediate, you might have to wait and/or work, etc. There is no need to saddle yourself with an additional burden if there are ways to avoid it.


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## Calvinist Cowboy (Aug 8, 2009)

AThornquist said:


> Dude, Ben, that WSC dress code is...cool. Why am I reminded of a wood elf?



It's not wood elfish...it's Shakespearean!


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