# Gluttons!



## py3ak (Apr 24, 2004)

Here is an idea I am trying out.

Sin is the transgression of the law. Every sin, therefore, is reducible to the transgression of a law. Now, of course, we can reduce it to a lack of love, but I don't want to go that far just yet. 

Take the sample case of gluttony. Of which of the 10 Commandments is it a violation? To put the same thing another way, what is gluttony? I think everyone would agree that if food is your god you are a gluttonous idolater. But is that the only way to commit gluttony? Is gluttony strictly a 1st commandment transgression? Or are we also gluttonous when we habitually eat not from necessity or hunger but simply from desire? And if so, which commandment are we violating?

Awaiting your responses.


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## Puritan Sailor (Apr 24, 2004)

Gluttony shows a lack of self-control (one of the fruits of teh Spirit). It also destroys these temples of the Lord which we call bodues. I think gluttony would probably fall under stealing, taking more than is necessary from God, and also coveting, since we are desiring more than what we need to live. 

But there is a hazy line. We are also told to enjoy those gifts God has given us. But we sinners can take anything good and pervert it. Food is no exception.


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## py3ak (Apr 24, 2004)

PuritanSailor,

I agree, gluttony is a lack of self-control. While obviously many people lack that, it seems that it is also possible that many Christians commit gluttony through not thinking that it is wrong. 

But the point you make about it being against the fruit of the Spirit is an interesting one. It brings up the question of the relationship of the fruit of the Spirit to the law of God. If something is contrary to the fruit of the Spirit, it is wrong; but sin is the transgression of the law. So anything contrary to the fruit of the Spirit is at the same time a transgression of the law. I think that is confirmed by the closing statement of Galatians 5:23. After listing the fruit of the Spirit Paul says &quot;against such there is no law.&quot; These things are in keeping with the law of God.

I like your points about stealing and covetousness --that is true. I think that gluttony also breaks the 3rd commandment --by such self-indulgent behaviour we dishonor God by whose name we are called. If committed on the Sabbath it breaks the 4th commandment as well --we are not turning away from doing our own pleasure on God's holy day.

So the next question (unless someone wants to add another way gluttony is a transgression, or disagree with one of the above) is:

What is the point at which we become gluttonous?
Is it when we eat for pleasure rather than hunger or necessity (I distinguish because sometimes you don't feel hungry but you know you need to eat something)? Or is that OK as long as it is done with self-control?


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## rembrandt (Apr 24, 2004)

[quote:ec571ab7b4]Then I realized that it is good and proper for a man to eat and drink, and to find satisfaction in his toilsome labor under the sun during the few days of life God has given him--for this is his lot. Moreover, when God gives any man wealth and possessions, and enables him to enjoy them, to accept his lot and be happy in his work-- this is a gift of God (Ecc. 5:18-19)[/quote:ec571ab7b4]

and the other verses in Ecc....

I have found the joy in gluttony. Positive hedonistic tendencies of enjoying food as God gives it (Ecc. 2:24-27) can be very enriching to the soul. I sometimes buy the family meal at KFC, then eat it all myself. Then I point to my belly and say &quot;yup, now thats prosperity.&quot; Just kidding.

Lets not forget though that food is meant for pleasure. Anyone who does not take pleasure in eating lots of good food, then God has not favored him with the pleasures of life. 

Wow, I'm starting to see that the prosperity gospel isn't so far off after all.

Rembrandt


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## py3ak (Apr 24, 2004)

*??*

Rembrandt,

Could you elaborate a little? Surely food is for more than pleasure --and surely other considerations than pleasure enter into it? If not, why not? Do you disagree that gluttony is a sin?

[Edited on 4-24-2004 by py3ak]


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## rembrandt (Apr 24, 2004)

All glutty is, is putting food before God. If we put God first, there is no such sin as gluttony.

[quote:8fef22a91a]Ecclesiastes 2
24 A man can do nothing better than to eat and drink and find satisfaction in his work. This too, I see, is from the hand of God, 25 for without him, who can eat or find enjoyment?[/quote:8fef22a91a]

Food is given for the pleasure of living. I think that even if we didn't need food to live, God would still give it to us as our delight. Think about all the feasts that the Bible mentions will be in heaven. Also, all the OT feasts. The only point of that was to delight in God by enjoying the pleasure of food.

The one who eats glorifies God moreso than the one who doesn't. Even though Rom. 14 might seem to disprove that statement, it is quite well demonstrated throughout Scripture (especially in the NT) that the liberty of enjoying food as a gift of God is more desireable than not doing so. 

Which would you rather be: a feaster or a faster? Bring on the pork and the bar-b-q!! 
:sumo::sumo::sumo::sumo::sumo::sumo::sumo::sumo::sumo:


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## Puritan Sailor (Apr 24, 2004)

Aye, Paul, but what will those feasts be in heaven? We shall be feasting upon our God, nourished and feasting upon his goodness an dlove, enjoying his fellowship for eternity!


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## alwaysreforming (Apr 24, 2004)

*Eating when not hungry*

I don't think we sin when we eat even when we're not hungry. To me, that's just like saying, &quot;Aha! How dare you lay down when you're not exhausted! Surely you could have kept going; you are lazy!&quot;

Some people like to eat and find pleasure in it. Even when we overeat, I don't necessarily equate that to idolatry. I don't see such a strong connection between the two. I am open to being corrected, but I think we're drawing way too tight a line by thinking we can only eat out of necessity. Therefore, I throw my vote in with the Scriptures quoted above.

:wr50:

(I love this little &quot;two cents&quot; icon! It really comes in handy!)


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## py3ak (Apr 24, 2004)

To those who think it is all right to eat &quot;too much&quot; for pleasure: what about the temperance which is one of the fruits of the Spirit? 
Henry Scudder, on page 47 of the Sprinkle edition of his &quot;Christian's Daily Walk&quot; says:

The constitution of man's soul and body is such that they cannot long endure to be employed, and stand bent with earnestness upon any thing, without relaxation and convenient refreshment.(1.) The whole man is refrshed by eating and drinkin: in which you must be, first, holy, secondly, just, thirdly, temperate. (...)
3. Moreover you must not eat and drink for gluttony and drunkenness, Rom xiii.13, Prov. xxiii. 20, 21, to please the palate, and to gorge the appetite; but for health and strength, Eccles. x. 17.

Here are the verses he mentioned quoted in full (NAS):
Romans 13:13 Let us behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy

Proverbs 23:20,21 Do not be with heavy drinkers of wine, {Or} with gluttonous eaters of meat; 
For the heavy drinker and the glutton will come to poverty, And drowsiness will clothe {one} with rags. 

Ecclesiastes 10:17 Blessed are you, O land, whose king is of nobility and whose princes eat at the appropriate time--for strength and not for drunkenness. 

This last reference seems to indicate that the concept of drunkenness can be applied to food as well as to alcohol. I think that saying that if we put God first then there is no such sin is a bit of an imprecise formulation. If God were totally dominant in all our lives, in other words, if we loved Him with all our heart and soul and strength and mind and our neighbour as ourself constantly and without variation, then we would have no sin at all. But aren't the sins categorized just precisely so that we can see that we are falling short? It makes it precise, in other words. Instead of leaning on vague nebulosities we can say &quot;I am (not) transgressing a specific commandment.&quot;


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## rembrandt (Apr 24, 2004)

[quote:152830abb6][i:152830abb6]Originally posted by puritansailor[/i:152830abb6]
Aye, Paul, but what will those feasts be in heaven? We shall be feasting upon our God, nourished and feasting upon his goodness an dlove, enjoying his fellowship for eternity! [/quote:152830abb6]

Will there be no food in heaven?



All darn, I forgot to say that we are feasting on the physical bread when we are taking communion. I think (though maybe there is a reason why this is no longer practiced), that communion should be almost as large as a meal (like it was in the early church). 

But of course this is only representative of feasting on the Lord. But why be satisfied with a wafer, when you can enjoy the body of Jesus Christ with a whole piece of bread? Why be satisfied with a sip of wine, when you can be drunk on the Spirit-- experiencing his effacacious death? In my opinion, sacraments should be used to the fullest. If you eat a whole loaf of bread, man thats alot of grace (I'm not saying the bread is efficacious). I see nothing wrong with spending 40 minuets on the passover meal! 

But let me sober down here. Of course these meals are our feasting on Christ-- but still we can't get away from the aspect that we are actually feasting on the bread that is representing Christ.

Let me sober down some more. Fasting is good too...

Rembrandt


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## rembrandt (Apr 24, 2004)

In response to py3ak:

Let us not forget that everytime we eat or drink we sin. Anytime we do anything we sin. There is no line with food or drink except for the conscience. 

Most of the verses you quoted where OT. Let us not forget that we are no longer under law but under grace. They had food laws, we don't. Jesus came eating and drinking when all the other prophets came fasting.


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## Puritan Sailor (Apr 24, 2004)

[quote:8fde209ba4][i:8fde209ba4]Originally posted by rembrandt[/i:8fde209ba4]
Most of the verses you quoted where OT. Let us not forget that we are no longer under law but under grace. They had food laws, we don't. Jesus came eating and drinking when all the other prophets came fasting. [/quote:8fde209ba4]

Being under grace in no way abolishes the righteous standard of our conduct. Those verses quoted do not even mention the dietary laws. They describe some traits of people who lack grace (and law for that matter). They are not described as ceremonial, therefore they are still binding as part of the moral law.


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## rembrandt (Apr 24, 2004)

[quote:15166d5c89][i:15166d5c89]Originally posted by puritansailor[/i:15166d5c89]
[quote:15166d5c89][i:15166d5c89]Originally posted by rembrandt[/i:15166d5c89]
Most of the verses you quoted where OT. Let us not forget that we are no longer under law but under grace. They had food laws, we don't. Jesus came eating and drinking when all the other prophets came fasting. [/quote:15166d5c89]

Being under grace in no way abolishes the righteous standard of our conduct. Those verses quoted do not even mention the dietary laws. They describe some traits of people who lack grace (and law for that matter). They are not described as ceremonial, therefore they are still binding as part of the moral law. [/quote:15166d5c89]

As long as we understand that we do not have food laws in the NT in ANY way. Any reference to withholding from food that applies to us, is not a law in itself, but is bound up with idolatry etc. (as was said above).


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## py3ak (Apr 24, 2004)

Rembrandt,

True all we do is steeped in sin: yet Paul could say that he had served God in good conscience. We are to strive to be free of known sin --for the unknown we just pray &quot;cleanse thou me from secret faults&quot;.

I would not see temperance (self-restraint, moderation) as being specifically a food law. It is, though, one of the principles of righteous conduct. 

What I do not understand from your posts is how we can be putting God first if we are not manifesting a certain fruit of the Spirit --if we are, in fact, not bridling our desire for food. I do not believe conscience functions in a vacuum --our consciences are to be informed by the word of God. This is the purpose of my posts here, to try to discern what God is displeased with in the area of eating.

By the way, I am not approaching this as one who does not enjoy food and would like to prevent other people from enjoying it. Cheese is one of my favourite pursuits.


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## rembrandt (Apr 25, 2004)

[quote:2620e13325]not bridling our desire for food.[/quote:2620e13325]

I don't think we are to try to bridle our desire for food. That is like saying one should not desire s*xual relations with one's spouse. Or one should not desire studying the earth. Or one should not desire music. It is good to desire these things because they are good. God created food and said it was good.

We are not to strive to not desire these things. What I was saying is that we are to desire God, and him only. Once we desire him, only then can the real hedonists come out to play. Only then can the scientists and mathematicians have fun. Only then can the husband enjoy his wife. Only then can the cheese lover enjoy cheese.

Certainly the unregenerate can desire these things too. But, being that they do not desire and enjoy God, they cannot enjoy these things as we can. To take the fullest delight in creation, one must take the fullest delight in the Creator. I'm not talking about misusing creation and worshipping it. I'm only saying that those unregenerate who twist the Psalm into &quot;The earth IS the Lord and everything in it&quot;, instead of &quot;The earth is the Lord's and everything in it&quot;, cannot delight in creation as much as we can, because there is an end to their mere earthly pleasures. But to the Christian, all pleasures are spiritual pleasures. When we enjoy food, we are essentially enjoying God, because we are enjoying the work of the Creator; and this from everlasting to everlasting.

Oh, and the unregenerate do not have the joy of the Spirit which causes me to be more joyful over cheese than the other person!

[quote:2620e13325]Cheese is one of my favourite pursuits[/quote:2620e13325]

Made a special trip to the grocery store for my cheese tonight... am going to enjoy it in a bit.

Rembrandt


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## rembrandt (Apr 25, 2004)

:goodpost:


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## py3ak (Apr 25, 2004)

Rembrandt,

I agree with you that we are to enjoy things, and that we do enjoy them more than the unregenerate. When I speak of bridling I don't mean turning away from, but simply controlling them. That is, we refuse to be brought under the power of even legitimate things.
And of course, the other side of the enjoyment coin is that we can enjoy the lack of self-indulgence. There used to be days when I would not eat anything all day long --and I felt great, I enjoyed it, I was upset if I had to eat.

The fundamental issue is selfishness (see Ezekiel 16:49). If we are selfish in the pursuit of pleasure, that is wrong. But here the vital point comes in: how do we know if we are being selfish? Well, in the area of gluttony, if we are not restraining ourselves from eating too much. What is &quot;too much&quot; varies from person to person. Some people need more than others. But I can enjoy the amount of food I need, and enjoy being filled, and go on to enjoy not eating past the point of sufficiency. As I see it, conscience comes into play in the person's given situation, because we all have different metabolisms, etc. But the principles are the same: stewardship, moderation, self-control, gratitude.


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