# Not Everyone Should Go to College



## bookslover (May 26, 2008)

A very interesting article in the June issue of _The Atlantic Monthly_. It's by an adjunct professor of English:

In the Basement of the Ivory Tower


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## etexas (May 26, 2008)

Makes me feel better, I did 2 years of college and after my Grandfather became ill I came home to help with some Family Business interests, I just started learning as I did it, then started my own investments company, by that point I really could not figure out a reason to get a Degree: I am self-employeyed, like I am going to fire myself for not having a degree. Kidding aside, College Degrees are great In my humble opinion, it just did not fall out for me that way.


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## turmeric (May 26, 2008)

I have a BA. I'm going to a college just like he describes to become a paralegal so I can get out of my dead end clerical job. That article makes me feel like a loser.


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## py3ak (May 26, 2008)

I think this is an unfortunate side-effect of democracy. Since we've conflated "education" with "vocational training" and both with "learning", society winds up imposing asinine burdens. Going to college is necessary in order not to have a dead-end job; it's one more obstacle in the way of the fiscally struggling, it's another form of torture to the Philistine, and it's a dilution of any real benefit of a college to those who are interested in learning.

But the article was well-written.


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## turmeric (May 26, 2008)

Very good points, Ruben. I guess I feel like a loser because, although I enjoyed college and would like even more of it, it didn't fix the problem of how to support myself gainfully, or it hasn't done so yet. I agree with your post. I think college should ba available to anyone, but not required for all jobs. Then people would probably sort themselves out properly.


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## blhowes (May 26, 2008)

etexas said:


> Makes me feel better, I did 2 years of college and after my Grandfather became ill I came home to help with some Family Business interests, I just started learning as I did it, then started my own investments biz, by that point I really could not figure out a reason to get a Degree: I am self-employeyed, like I am going to fire myself for not having a degree. Kidding aside, College Degrees are great In my humble opinion, it just did not fall out for me that way.


I think that's neat, first of all that you stopped college to help the family business, and secondly that you were able to make a go of it without the degree. 

I was fortunate that my parents were able to put me through college. I've often wondered, though, what other alternatives there are for people who can't go to college, for whatever reason. Its neat to hear stories like yours.


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## etexas (May 26, 2008)

blhowes said:


> etexas said:
> 
> 
> > Makes me feel better, I did 2 years of college and after my Grandfather became ill I came home to help with some Family Business interests, I just started learning as I did it, then started my own investments biz, by that point I really could not figure out a reason to get a Degree: I am self-employeyed, like I am going to fire myself for not having a degree. Kidding aside, College Degrees are great In my humble opinion, it just did not fall out for me that way.
> ...


Thank you Brother God did bless me, I may be dumb in some areas but the good Lord gave me a razor sharp business mind. I can take no credit it was the gift the Lord gave me.


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## DMcFadden (May 26, 2008)

I am the most over-educated employee in my organization of 180 (12+ years of college/grad school). But, my most valuable employee is one who never went to college but does business better than most MBAs. College is NOT for everyone and should not be used as a hazing ritual to determine characterological traits such as stick-to-it-iveness.


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## py3ak (May 26, 2008)

Meg, I face a similar problem, so I know where you're coming from. I doubt that any of the courses I've taken would be accepted for credit at, say, a local community college, so I'd be looking at starting from scratch just to get a B.A. or B.S. Obviously that limits my employability; it also limits the avenues I can even pursue to expand my employability.

I think it's interesting that in OT Israel there was provision made for people without ambition. When a servant decided he liked working for his master, he could become a servant for life. Basically, he's going to go through life with his expenses paid and with something to do to keep busy, but not a lot else. But there is no moral stigma attached to someone who took that alternative. But what a gap is there between that and the American Dream? There are people unsuited to the American Dream, and I think it's high time we stopped introducing some sort of societal or even ecclesiastical frowning on that as though it were somehow second best.


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## bookslover (May 26, 2008)

py3ak said:


> I think it's interesting that in OT Israel there was provision made for people without ambition. When a servant decided he liked working for his master, he could become a servant for life. Basically, he's going to go through life with his expenses paid and with something to do to keep busy, but not a lot else. But there is no moral stigma attached to someone who took that alternative. But what a gap is there between that and the American Dream? There are people unsuited to the American Dream, and I think it's high time we stopped introducing some sort of societal or even ecclesiastical frowning on that as though it were somehow second best.



I think this is what the author of the article is getting at. The mantra - promoted especially by political liberals after World War II - is that _everyone_ must go to college after high school. That surely was the obsession among guidance counselors when I was in high school (1967-1970). It was simply assumed that virtually everyone would attend college.

Our society has trained itself to look down on people who work with their hands instead of their minds. But, as with the lifetime servant in ancient Israel, some people actually _like_ being janitors, farmers, plumbers, painters, electricians, woodworkers, carpenters, stonemasons, grocery store clerks, etc., etc. American society today seems to have no respect for people who have a talent for hands-on craftsmanship - someone who knows how to make a beautiful cabinet, for example. If you haven't been to college and earned that piece of paper, then gone on to get a job in a cubicle in some bureaucracy somewhere, you're a failure. It's unfathomable to this way of thinking that some people not only _like_ working with their hands, they're actually _good at it_ and can actually _make a living at it_. 

After all, goes the thinking, only the ignorant and those in the "lower classes" work with their hands...

Higher education is a wonderful thing, but it's not for everyone...


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## py3ak (May 26, 2008)

I agree, Richard. Part of the problem, though, is that the emphasis on college has made it harder for those who like working with their hands to make a living at it. It's also made a degree of some kind, however irrelevant, a pre-requisite for certain jobs, when there is no correlation between that sort of education and that job.

When I was 18 I worked at the Indiana State Department of Health in Provider Relations for the Children's Special Health Care Services program. When I resigned my boss said that he had had grave doubts when I started (through a temp agency) because he'd had people who had successfully run their own businesses who hadn't been able to keep up with the demands of the position. But he added that I had done well in it, and although I made some negotiations with VPs at CVS, for instance, I never felt that it was a stressful job.


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## etexas (May 26, 2008)

DMcFadden said:


> I am the most over-educated employee in my organization of 180 (12+ years of college/grad school). But, my most valuable employee is one who never went to college but does business better than most MBAs. College is NOT for everyone and should not be used as a hazing ritual to determine characterological traits such as stick-to-it-iveness.


Indeed! Esp. in the world of Business, the best Business people are born not made they are a bit like baseball players the best are often "naturals" those for whom the work just "clicks".


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## blhowes (May 26, 2008)

bookslover said:


> Our society has trained itself to look down on people who work with their hands instead of their minds. But, as with the lifetime servant in ancient Israel, some people actually _like_ being janitors, farmers, plumbers, painters, electricians, woodworkers, carpenters, stonemasons, grocery store clerks, etc., etc. American society today seems to have no respect for people who have a talent for hands-on craftsmanship - someone who knows how to make a beautiful cabinet, for example. If you haven't been to college and earned that piece of paper, *then gone on to get a job in a cubicle in some bureaucracy somewhere*, you're a failure. It's unfathomable to this way of thinking that some people not only _like_ working with their hands, they're actually _good at it_ and can actually _make a living at it_.


I praise the Lord for my job in the cubicle. I enjoy it (most of the time), but there have been countless times I've seen men working, whether its digging up dirt with a John Deer rig, or plowing snow, when I've thought it must be neat to have such a job. I guess no matter where you are the grass is always greener...


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## DMcFadden (May 26, 2008)

blhowes said:


> I guess no matter where you are the grass is always greener...



As the recently 67 year old bard of rock once said . . . 

_Twenty years of schoolin'
And they put you on the day shift
Look out kid
They keep it all hid_


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## Mushroom (May 26, 2008)

I was expelled in tenth grade from a private international school overseas for using the name of the Lord in vain (good for that school!). I nearly completed the required credits for HS graduation with home study courses from the Univ. of Iowa and adult ed courses, but became impatient and took the GED in the late 70's. The plan was to put my fiance (who was 2 yrs older) through college for her Associates, then she would work fulltime while I went to college for a BS in engineering. She got hers and split.

My parents saved not one nickel for my college education, and after all that I couldn't have cared less. Wasted many years on crab and fishing boats, then in construction and truck driving. Let nobody tell you a college education is not necessary. That's a fool's advice in this day and age.

I have had my own business for the last eleven years, and we've seen decent earnings, but never so much as to save anything, and now in this economy we are out beyond the edge and circling the drain financially.

My nephew just got hired with his AS and a security clearance for 73k at age 23. More than I've ever earned in a year at age 49.

Don't buy any of this swill that a college degree is unnecessary. I have found many college grads to be complete idiots, but paid more than I simply due to the degree for the same work, which is a large factor in why I work for myself. These days I call it self-unemployment, and I'd bet the farm that most of you folks have not the faintest idea what that is really like.


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## py3ak (May 26, 2008)

Brad, I understand where you're coming from (my income last year was a whopping $7,000 in 12 months). And plainly for financial well-being some sort of a degree is usually necessary. But we have the clear counter-factual of Max's experience, so while we can make a generalization we can't make it more than a generalization --and that doesn't warrant excessively 'vigorous' language.


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## Mushroom (May 26, 2008)

No offense intended, Ruben, but I take umbrage with anybody counseling any brother to forgo as much credited education as he can possibly accrue and still be productive. I heard that from my own BA degreed father and his blue-collar brothers as a kid. He was one of the least productive and definitely least godly among 10 kids, but because he had the degree and was a jolly drunk, he excelled them all in income. They were painters and plumbers and electricians and factory workers who in those days experienced an opulent lifestyle by global standards, but those days are gone, their retirements stolen, and trying to make it on social security and part-time Wal-Mart type jobs. Who would wish that on their own brethren?

Maybe I'm just stressing, so I'll apologize for the 'vigorous' language and move on.


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## py3ak (May 26, 2008)

No offense taken, Brad! Sadly the reality does seem to be that one way or another the system has a random stratagem to get you into debt --if it isn't student loans it'll be a mortgage you can't afford because you're a laborer instead of a doctor.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (May 26, 2008)

I think the days are gone when we can afford not to have degrees. Our economies work differently. Here in the west we are in a race against the east. The only advantage we have is our education system, our science and our ability to develop new things. Their advantage is masses of cheap labour. We need to stay one step ahead. We can't compete over labour costs, otherwise we will have to lower our standards to those of India and China. What we can do is put money into research and development, money into more ingenious business and the best of the service industry.

Perhaps then "College" is not for everyone. Maybe the system needs to be reworked. We can't afford to have kids drop out because the system fails them. Yet the answer is not just to put more kids through school. In New Zealand with this idea I notice two things. a) standards are lowered to let idiots in. b) smarter students suffer as a result. Maybe there needs to be more stratification or room for the good and the bad.

Another thing I have noticed in New Zealand is that it is not always College that is the problem, but what people do in College. Teenagers are not always mature, they do not always make rational decisions and they do not always accept and/or get good advice. They enroll into things that sound fun/easy/what their friends are doing. Not what actually will help them in the future or the country. People then should ask do we need all these liberal arts degrees? Or do we need lawyers and accountants? Or will they be increasingly outsourced? Perhaps we need more scientists and mathematicians. Who knows.

I am waffling now. Fraser out.


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## Richard King (May 26, 2008)

I have a degree in education and I mow yards for a living.

All I got out of college was exposure to a couple of incredible profs and I gained some tremendous friends.

I taught for some years but it had so little to do with education that I couldn't last.


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## JoelYrick (May 26, 2008)

Talk of the Nation had a similar topic recently here:
Are College Degrees a Waste of Money? : NPR


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## BJClark (May 26, 2008)

Neither my husband or I have a college degree, though I do have about 30 hours towards my A.A. and all I use it for is to help my kids with homework; granted we don't bring home $50k a year, but we don't need $50k a year to live, we've managed thus far on less, sure we struggle financially at times but then everyone does, pretty much no matter how much money they make..

And as far as 'dead-end' jobs, I'm kind of curious what exactly is that, any job we do we are to work for the glory of God, so how could any job really be a 'dead-end'? 

God has us in that job to be a witness by our lifestyle and how we handle the situations of life for those we come in contact with everyday..

Granted we may not acquire much in this life, but our focus shouldn't be on this life, our focus should be on our treasures in heaven.



> After all, goes the thinking, only the ignorant and those in the "lower classes" work with their hands...



Yes, but let those 'lower classes' go on strike and those sitting in their plush offices start whining...

example: the A/C in an office building or college classroom go out and they not be able to get an A/C repairman there by the end of the day and these folks sitting in their offices/classes complaining they are 'sweating'; let the garbage collectors go on strike, and the city is in an uproar..have toilet over flow in an office building or school and they would be having a fit if they couldn't get someone in there to fix it.

People don't have respect for those who do these things UNTIL they need them...then it's a different story..until they are needed again..


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## christianyouth (May 26, 2008)

I think the English professor who wrote the article underestimates what discipline can do. The lady didn't have language skills, she didn't know how to use the computer. She didn't have the equipment necessary for being successful in college. But instead of saying, "This lady isn't college material", shouldn't the lady start regular _reading_ of books? Maybe pick of E.B. White's _The Elements of Style_ or one of the numerous books that the library has on how to take notes, study, etc? I guess I just feel enriched through my own studies, and would hate anyone to be robbed of that and told that they aren't 'college material' simply because they lack some of the basic skills to succeed in college. 

Thanks for the article.


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## christianyouth (May 26, 2008)

You're right. Sorry for skimming the article and then commenting on it. I reread it, and he did try to help her.

Bad habit.


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## Zenas (May 26, 2008)

I tend to think that college is just one big, overpriced baby-sitting endeavor. The majority of those whom I knew in college were there to "put off" "real life". It was an excuse not to go find a real job, rather than a means by which one could be secured. 

The Institution seemed to propagate this type of mentality as well with worthless degrees and worthless classes designed to fulfill worthless requirements that were supposed to make one a more "well rounded student". There was less of a sense of "stick-to-it-tiveness" and more of a sense of "I'm going to draw this out for a long as possible so it looks like I'm actually doing something while I do very little and get drunk a lot."

I suppose this was perfect training, however, as most of those who rode that train will likely find themself in a cubicle situation where, for eight hours a day, they will do their best to dodge work while making it look like they are actually working. The Institution truly has trained them for their target job-field. 

My fiancee' has repeatedly said she wouldn't have gone to college if she had to pay for it. Her college was free through a scholarship program. If it hadn't of been, she just would have worked while waiting for her husband. Being that she is going to be a housewife, there really was no point in her obtaining a degree. 

A recent visitor to our church was of the same mindset. She is in the U.S. Navy and her father is a member of an OPC church in North Carolina. Her father called my pastor so that she could get hooked up with our congregation in order to have a aplce to worship. Both her and her parents decided that it was pointless for her to go to college, so she joined the Navy and now sings with one of the Navy bands right out of high school. I'd say that's vastly more nifty than going to college and getting an absolutely pointless degree in Political Science, Criminal Justice, or English. 

I myself earned a degree in Criminal Justice; an absolutely worthless endeavor. It's sole purpose was to serve as a prerequisite for getting into law school or getting a job in a totally unrelated field. I was actually shopping around FedEx last summer for a job in case I didn't get into law school. My father is in a fairly high level management position there and told me that if I was patient, I could probably get a job in some vague position with a vague job description making 50-60k a year on the mere merit of me having a college degree. It didn't matter what the degree was in.

He himself attests to the current power and the paradigm shift that has occured with regard to higher education. 

He began his career as a telephone man, climbing telephone poles. He eventually moved to work with another telephone company in a management position, and then was hired on with FedEx and has moved up from there. He has no college education. He doesn't even have a high school degree. He got his G.E.D. after he enlisted in the Navy at 17 and makes a ton of money as a manager. It doesn't take a college education to do his job, however, if one were wanting to move into his job with the standards applied to hiring practices today, they would need at LEAST a Master's degree, if not a couple. He and his peers all look for college degrees when they are hiring, they have to. No one hires in those types of positions without a college degree.The degree could be worthless and, in fact, it practically is, but it's just a stamp you have to have in order to get hired. 

If my dad approached my dad for his job, technically, my dad wouldn't be able to hire himself. Rediculous.


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## BJClark (May 27, 2008)

Brad;



> I was expelled in tenth grade from a private international school overseas for using the name of the Lord in vain (good for that school!). I nearly completed the required credits for HS graduation with home study courses from the Univ. of Iowa and adult ed courses, but became impatient and took the GED in the late 70's. The plan was to put my fiance (who was 2 yrs older) through college for her Associates, then she would work fulltime while I went to college for a BS in engineering. She got hers and split.



With all due respect, you made some bad choices, which has nothing to do with what you can or can not do with or without a college degree.



> My parents saved not one nickel for my college education, and after all that I couldn't have cared less. Wasted many years on crab and fishing boats, then in construction and truck driving. Let nobody tell you a college education is not necessary. That's a fool's advice in this day and age.



Again, with all due respect, my parents didn't save for any of us to go to college either, yet all of my siblings went on to college with scholarships and financial aide. I am the only one, of six, who does not have a college degree, I don't live in a big fancy house or take European vacations like they do, but I've learned to be content with what God has provided, even through the struggles. And I have found just listening to them at family functions, they are always wanting more..they aren't content..they all think I'm odd for being content and not desiring (coveting) to live as they do..but they can never answer when I ask them "how much will be enough?" They don't know, because they've never had it..or at least they don't think they have..



> I have had my own business for the last eleven years, and we've seen decent earnings, but never so much as to save anything, and now in this economy we are out beyond the edge and circling the drain financially.



I've been there as well, at one point I was on the verge of losing my home, but God provided..I've had my car repo'ed and was able to get it back and now it's now paid off, it took awhile, but I was able to do it..



> Don't buy any of this swill that a college degree is unnecessary. I have found many college grads to be complete idiots, but paid more than I simply due to the degree for the same work, which is a large factor in why I work for myself. These days I call it self-unemployment, and I'd bet the farm that most of you folks have not the faintest idea what that is really like.



I think you might be surprised at what many of the folks here have been through in their lives..so don't bet that farm just yet..

and at 49 your not to old to go back to college IF that is what you'd like to do..you could apply for financial aide, you could apply for scholarships, just like anyone else..take night classes, take online classes, there are many ways you could improve your situation IF you want to..

I know many folks our age going to college, some for the first time, others going back to finish their degree's they started before they got married and had kids. 

The hardest thing to do sometimes is to really accept responsibility for our choices, and from what you've shared, when you were younger, you made some childish choices, we all did..but now that your older, you can learn from those choices and can still make some new ones..one's that could make your life a little better..


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## turmeric (May 27, 2008)

B.J.
To me a "dead-end job" is one which doesn't match one's talents and which one can't drop because one can't get anything else. I don't care what career one pursues, if it matches one's abilities and provides enough to live on, it's fine.


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## BJClark (May 27, 2008)

Zenas;



> A recent visitor to our church was of the same mindset. She is in the U.S. Navy and her father is a member of an OPC church in North Carolina. Her father called my pastor so that she could get hooked up with our congregation in order to have a aplce to worship. Both her and her parents decided that it was pointless for her to go to college, so she joined the Navy and now sings with one of the Navy bands right out of high school.



She could find out if any of her Military experience could be transfered to college credits..

https://www.navycollege.navy.mil/transcript.html


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## CharlieJ (May 27, 2008)

Zenas said:


> I tend to think that college is just one big, overpriced baby-sitting endeavor. The majority of those whom I knew in college were there to "put off" "real life". It was an excuse not to go find a real job, rather than a means by which one could be secured.
> 
> The Institution seemed to propagate this type of mentality as well with worthless degrees and worthless classes designed to fulfill worthless requirements that were supposed to make one a more "well rounded student". There was less of a sense of "stick-to-it-tiveness" and more of a sense of "I'm going to draw this out for a long as possible so it looks like I'm actually doing something while I do very little and get drunk a lot."



Hmm, I guess a lot of one's attitude toward college is shaped by one's personal experience. I went to a Christian university where people were expelled for drinking. Many of them had clear goals in life and took a lot of steps to achieve them. Many of the most godly, hard-working, mature people I know are actually my peers. 

Also, I wonder what you mean by worthless classes and worthless degrees? For example, I'm studying now for work in theology and possibly ministry. My ideal undergraduate background would have consisted of... literature, history, philosophy, Bible content, speech, logic, etc. Basically humanities. I didn't get all I could wish I did, but I got a lot, and it's been very valuable. 

Maybe college is what you make of it.


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## py3ak (May 27, 2008)

Another definition for a dead-end job is one where there is no possibility of advancement within the company, and the level of raises, etc., will not keep pace with inflation, so that after a few years you'll find yourself making less, relative to the cost of living. If the job is also such that anyone seeing it on your resume would not be interested in hiring you in a different field, it's a one-way cul-de-sac job.


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## Mushroom (May 27, 2008)

> With all due respect, you made some bad choices, which has nothing to do with what you can or can not do with or without a college degree.


Neighbor, I've made far more than just 'some' bad choices in my life, and by God's amazing grace have suffered far less in consequence than I deserve, and for that I am overwhelmingly grateful. The background was given to explain from where I derived an attitude that a college education was unnecessary; one of my dumber 'bad choices'.


> Again, with all due respect, my parents didn't save for any of us to go to college either, yet all of my siblings went on to college with scholarships and financial aide. I am the only one, of six, who does not have a college degree, I don't live in a big fancy house or take European vacations like they do, but I've learned to be content with what God has provided, even through the struggles. And I have found just listening to them at family functions, they are always wanting more..they aren't content..they all think I'm odd for being content and not desiring (coveting) to live as they do..but they can never answer when I ask them "how much will be enough?" They don't know, because they've never had it..or at least they don't think they have..


I have more than I have ever needed, so contentment is not really a problem, except that maybe I find it difficult to say that I am content with having to rush to city hall to pay my water bill so it doesn't get cut off for the 3rd time in the past few months because I finally got paid for a job where I'm charging half what I did last year just to have the work, and the lawyer I'm doing the work for decides not to bother with paying me until it's convenient for them. Or dealing with electricity cut-off notices, or not being able to pay both my mortgage and service my company debt, or wondering how I'm gonna pay for my kids' homeschool curriculum, or any of their music lessons (that they pursue in hopes of college scholarships), or just being able to buy enough groceries. If what you mean to imply is that I am suffering these things due to my own foolishness, I completely concur. That does not one thing to alleviate the suffering that my beloved and precious children must endure (more bad choices?) because of the sinfulness and stupidity of their father. That's one part of this that I am entirely sick of. They didn't make the dumb decisions that precipitated this mess, yet they suffer the most for it.


> I've been there as well, at one point I was on the verge of losing my home, but God provided..I've had my car repo'ed and was able to get it back and now it's now paid off, it took awhile, but I was able to do it..


Glad things worked out for you. Might have been the wiser decisions you made?


> I think you might be surprised at what many of the folks here have been through in their lives..so don't bet that farm just yet..
> 
> and at 49 your not to old to go back to college IF that is what you'd like to do..you could apply for financial aide, you could apply for scholarships, just like anyone else..take night classes, take online classes, there are many ways you could improve your situation IF you want to..
> 
> I know many folks our age going to college, some for the first time, others going back to finish their degree's they started before they got married and had kids.


Yeah. And if a frog had wings....

I've got 4 kids and a wife to support in this economy. The time and expense necessary to pursue an education are not available right now, but thanks for the thought.


> The hardest thing to do sometimes is to really accept responsibility for our choices, and from what you've shared, when you were younger, you made some childish choices, we all did..but now that your older, you can learn from those choices and can still make some new ones..one's that could make your life a little better..


So where did I imply that I don't accept responsibility for my bad choices in life? My post was meant to reject the notion that anybody should intentionally forgo any educational opportunities available to them with the idea that "not everybody needs college". My choice was stupid, and I'm paying for it now, and I'd hate for anyone else to have to.

Things are not well for us right now, and I just got my Soc Sec account report and found that my wife and kids would receive some 5k a month if I were dead, which is far more than what I've been bringing in lately, so I'm a tad down. I guess a lecture on personal responsibility is just what I needed.

Anyway, any young lurkers want an example of how "you don't need a college degree" works out in real life, there are always exceptions to the rule, but the overwhelming majority of those who don't pay an excruciating price for it. DON"T BELIEVE IT!

I gotta go change the front bearings in my truck....


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## TimV (May 27, 2008)

It's such a complicated deal!!

Most of the homeschoolers around here don't want to go to college as they see how much people are making with family businesses; young and middle age men who didn't go to college but who are making great money. And then they see men who went to college and aren't doing well.

There seem to be so many factors that include location that it's hard to make general statements. I'm a college grad, I was (and am) working for myself, employing 4 of my sons and several full to part time young Christian men and putting ten thousand dollars per year in savings after taxes plus expanding the business, buying all the kids their first car, helping others etc... Then my wife leaves us last month after 23 years and I still have no idea of how much the courts will decide she gets every month, whether I can buy her out of her share of the house, etc...and I'm 48 with no retirement or benefits of any kind.

And then I see my close relative who didn't go to college, got a job that didn't pay near as much as mine, and now is 5 years away from a good retirement with a nice house and great family.

I just don't see how a person can make a generalization on this issue, at least here in CA, although I know it can be different in other areas.

There's that verse in Proverbs "Do you see a man skilled in his work? He will stand before Kings, not before unknown men". There's a principle at work that I've seen even in Africa with a 40 percent unemployment rate. Good workers are scarce, and they command a premium. That's not to say that if you're in, say, construction and the housing bubble bursts that you won't struggle for a season, but it still is a general principle and doesn't seem to have much to do with education.

And whatever you do, don't get smug, no matter what your educational background is, or you run the risk of loosing everything, believe me. It's another Biblical principle.

Theoretically we Calvinists of all people should be the most immune of all people from worrying about our financial future, but when that feeling of uncertainty settles down in the pit of your stomach it's hard to think in terms of faith, or even to think rationally.


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## Pergamum (May 27, 2008)

I find it odd that many on this thread poo-poo college and yet on the PB many urge a WHOLE LOTTA schooling for the ministry. 


My take is that in today's world one needs all the advantages one can get and a degree is one such advantage.

But I too on flummoxed by the fact that about 1/3rd or 1/4th of the lives of most adults are spent not producing anything but sitting and learning. What's all that learning for anyhow and just how important is the capital of Luxembourg if I never go there? Until a boy or girl is 24 or so, they sit and sit and sit and sit and learn....and then get a job that doesn't use 99% of all that stuff.


Don't get me wrong, I like to learn and excelled at academics only because of that... but I live in a society where education is not valued and I see the children with so much freedom and it is easy to see schooling as institutionalized slavery. I know kids in US schools that have 8 hours of school per day and another 3-4 hours of homework every night! 


P.S. .. We will homeschool and are thinking of using the unschooling method. Any thoughts?


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## BJClark (May 27, 2008)

Brad;



> I have more than I have ever needed, so contentment is not really a problem, except that maybe I find it difficult to say that I am content with having to rush to city hall to pay my water bill so it doesn't get cut off for the 3rd time in the past few months because I finally got paid for a job where I'm charging half what I did last year just to have the work, and the lawyer I'm doing the work for decides not to bother with paying me until it's convenient for them. Or dealing with electricity cut-off notices, or not being able to pay both my mortgage and service my company debt, or wondering how I'm gonna pay for my kids' homeschool curriculum, or any of their music lessons (that they pursue in hopes of college scholarships), or just being able to buy enough groceries. If what you mean to imply is that I am suffering these things due to my own foolishness, I completely concur. That does not one thing to alleviate the suffering that my beloved and precious children must endure (more bad choices?) because of the sinfulness and stupidity of their father. That's one part of this that I am entirely sick of. They didn't make the dumb decisions that precipitated this mess, yet they suffer the most for it.
> Glad things worked out for you. Might have been the wiser decisions you made?



Yes, but it can certainly build your children's faith to trust God as their provider..

My children do not take music lesson's, why? Certainly not because they don't want to, but because I can not afford it on our income, and because I can not afford it..I have to tell them "they can't take them". 

I'm not sure how old your kids are, but could they barter for their music lessons? If they take them from an individual could they offer to clean their house or mow their lawn in lieu of cash payments? 

I'm not sure what business your in, but it sounds like some type of construction, so a question, do you give notice to owners when your doing business for them?

And again, I have been where you are with getting cut off notices from the electric and water companies, I have even had both cut off at one time or another, where my kids have suffered as well..I have even had my phone and cable cut off because I couldn't make the payments...and I have found that through those times, we, my children included have grown to trust Christ more..I was a single parent for a number of years when their father left, and I was the sole support of our household, so I do understand much of what your speaking of..and I have also been there where I haven't been able to buy school supplies and groceries, needing to determine which was more important at the time, and I found when I shared that burden with others..God provided, not necessarily through them, but through someone..

Have you talked to your church family about these needs? Giving them an opportunity to be blessed by God to provide for those needs, by helping a brother?




> Things are not well for us right now, and I just got my Soc Sec account report and found that my wife and kids would receive some 5k a month if I were dead, which is far more than what I've been bringing in lately, so I'm a tad down. I guess a lecture on personal responsibility is just what I needed.



The same is true for us as well, and for many others, and again, have you talked to your church family about these needs?


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## JBaldwin (May 27, 2008)

Wow, this is an interesting thread! I am one of those folks who thinks that college can be valuable, or it can be a waste of time. I have a Bible degree, a degree in french and an additional 99 hours of college credit. Some of it was worth my time, some of it was a waste of time. 

There was a time when college was all about mastering a profession, and high school was all about getting the "liberal arts" education. I'm sure most of you have seen the exam given to 8th graders in the 1800s. Most of us with college educations would have a difficult time passing it. My point being most of the foundational education needed for every day life was completed by 8th grade at which point some went on to high school and college to become professionals.

When I hear people talking about college being a waste of time, I think of the nurse's training that my mother received vs. the nurses training available now. In the 1950s, my mother lived, went to school and worked at a hospital/teaching school for 3 years. She was either attending class or working at the hospital for 50 to 60 hours a week. When her 3 years was complete, she had already logged thousands of hours of on the job training in addition to her class work. When she went back to college for a BS in nursing 30 years later, she did not have to take one nursing course. It was all history, english, speech and religion. Gives one pause doesn't it?

I believe that the reason why many find college to be a waste of time is that much of it is a waste of time. If high school rounded out our liberal arts basis, then college could truly be a place for learning a profession, and it could be done in two or three years rather than in 4-7 years. 

When I studied french, I went to a school in France. We did not study anything but the french language for 10 grueling months. In 10 months, I completed the equivalent of a master's degree, but without all the liberal arts frills. According to the French, "I should have learned math, science, history, etc. before I ever went to college."


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## Mushroom (May 27, 2008)

BJ, I appreciate your concern, and I apologize that for some reason I had not connected that you are a sister, so I apologize for my strident tone.

I have learned through many years filled with many trials to rest with confidence on the provision of my God. He has never failed me. My relating of my own experiences was to point out that taking an attitude that a college education was not a priority was a bad choice that resulted in bad consequences. Perhaps I should not have been so specific.

Your concern is appreciated and welcome, but we may be hijacking this thread. I asked for prayer here over this many months ago, as I have of others both within and without my church family. The Lord will cause all these things to redound to His glory and my best interest, its just another trial aimed at working patience in me. Sometimes the details can be difficult to endure, but endure we will by the abounding grace of God.

I just still believe it is a disservice to anyone to give them counsel to the effect that a college education need not be a major priority.


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## Zenas (May 27, 2008)

CharlieJ said:


> Zenas said:
> 
> 
> > I tend to think that college is just one big, overpriced baby-sitting endeavor. The majority of those whom I knew in college were there to "put off" "real life". It was an excuse not to go find a real job, rather than a means by which one could be secured.
> ...



I apologize I was somewhat obtuse and non-specific as to what I was trying to get across. I tend to think everybody has to have gone through the same thing as me. 

I don't doubt that the atmosphere can change from institution to institution, but I tend to consider the one I attended fairly representative of the typical American university. It is very liberal with a strong focus in liberal arts and science degrees like sociology, psychology, poly sci., criminal justice, etc. While these degrees can be of use when put into the correct context, they typically are a means to get a piece of paper. 

In your case, the ideal degree would have been an undergraduate background in philosophy and literature and, considering the use it would serve later to further a legitimate goal, the degree and learning wouldn't be worthless. That's within that context though. Many I knew went after poly sci. or history degrees with no goal in mind for doing anything with them. They were easy degrees that didn't require a lot of math or science that they could take over a 5-8 year period without losing any pertinent information that would be needed in later courses. They could goof-off with impunity without facing any discipline or consequences for doing so.

Contrast this with nursing school or law school where, if you take 2 years off between Evidence and Trial Advocacy, or Biology 1 and Biology 2, you have forgotten vital facts and, the school is unlikely to readmit you without forcing you to start over. 

English degrees and the like are not worthless within their intended contexts, however, the institution has created an enviornment in which they can be obtained as a means to a worthless end, i.e. students with Philosophy degrees waiting tables for 30+ years. Instead of doing something useful, they did something easier and wasted a lot of time, money, and resources for something they weren't going to use in order to goof off and "party dood". 

Again, I know this is not representative of every institution, it only strikes me as the status quo.


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## Zenas (May 27, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> I find it odd that many on this thread poo-poo college and yet on the PB many urge a WHOLE LOTTA schooling for the ministry.



Context my friend. Obtaining a History degree in order to graduate and do... nothing... is a worthless waste of time that could have been spent doing something useful.

Obtaining a B.A. in Philosophy and an M.A. in Divinity in order to become a Teaching Elder in God's Church is an endeavor worthy of a sizeable amount of schooling for it is a weighty call.

I tend to think the majority use college as means to put off doing something useful. Those that seek to do something useful that requires higher education, I recommend college and then some.


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