# Total Depravity, Predestination, and Irresistible grace are not true because.....



## Rufus (Nov 7, 2011)

Somebody is arguing to me (in a peaceful and respectful manner) that Total Depravity, Predestination, and Irresistible Grace are not true because God hardened people's hearts in the scriptures. 



> Sean, Total depravity is a manufactured doctrine that says we are so totally depraved that we cannot choose to believe in Jesus even after being taught; however, that is not anywhere in the Bible. That belief actually goes against God’s Word. The Word of God says faith comes from HEARING the word, Romans 10:14. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11, Romans 4:21.



Both myself and the other guy mentioned John 6:44 but they said that was just to the Jews (didn't somebody on here meet somebody that said Romans 9 just applied to Jews?)


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## jogri17 (Nov 7, 2011)

interesting argument. I would respond by saying of course that is true, it is God who hardens and God who softens ultimately. God hardens the reprobate and softens the elect in his due time.


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## NB3K (Nov 7, 2011)

According to John Piper in his exposition of Romans 9, 10 , & 11, Piper claims that these three chapters of Romans are to affirm why the Word of God has not failed ie...



> Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,



As for irresistible Grace, we can simply hold to the many passage's of Scripture and stand absolutely sure:



> Isa 55:10 "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,
> Isa 55:11 so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.



&



> Pro 19:21 Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the LORD that will stand.


&



> Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,



&



> 2Ti 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,



Total depravity should be known by the simple testimony of the consicences of our minds that we are wicked people! But I just wanted to give you some Sola Scriputura ammo!


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## Prufrock (Nov 7, 2011)

Sean, what your acquaintance says about faith coming by hearing is, of course, absolutely true; but that has little to do with whether we can make ourselves alive or not. The scriptures not only speak of us as having our consciences seared with a hot iron (how can one's conscience be pricked by the Word if it is seared and past feeling, unless it first be changed? [Eph. 4 and 1 Tim. 4]), but as being dead in our sins (Eph. 2), and unable to accept or receive the things of God without being born of the Spirit (1 Cor. 2:14). A commonly used picture is the calling forth of Lazarus: he came to Jesus because Jesus called and he heard and responded (just as we hear the word and willingly respond by faith or coming to Jesus); but, as a dead man, he never could have done so unless the Spirit worked in him along with Christ's word to make him not only willing, but able to respond.

We are, indeed, taught; we do hear and believe; we choose and are willing; we are convinced; we hold fast, we cling, we persevere; but these things are all done because we have first been renewed. The Spirit works with the Word, and the Word works with the Spirit; they are never separated.


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## Pilgrim Standard (Nov 7, 2011)

Sean,
It seems that the person you are quoting does not understand that Spiritual Corpses do not hear nor can they be persuaded of the truth of the gospel message because they are spiritually speaking "stiffs post rigamortis." Dead in trespasses and sins does not mean somewhat sick of spirit. Obviously the person is having issues with pelagianism/semi-pelagianism. There is an issue with sufficiency of the Sacrifice of Christ as well.


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Nov 7, 2011)

Sean,

One needs to work out the order of salvation, ordo salutis, firstly in these sort of discussions. Something along the lines: foreknowledge, predestination, calling, regeneration, union to Christ, faith, repentance, justification, adoption, sanctification, and glorification. (Yeah, I know, one can debate the precise ordering here, but no one on this board will deny regeneration logically precedes faith.)

So, getting to that "faith" bit requires, as noted by others, a "quickening" from spiritual death to life, a regeneration. Focus on the total inability of the spiritually dead to do anything until quickened, then the rest will hopefully fall into place. 

AMR


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## PuritanCovenanter (Nov 7, 2011)

I would only add that God hardens their hearts by allowing them to go their own way and giving them over to their own sinfulness. Grace keeps one from spiraling down. When God removes his gracious influence men just turn harder against him. 



> (Rom 1:17) For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.(Rom 1:18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
> (Rom 1:19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
> (Rom 1:20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
> (Rom 1:21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
> ...


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