# Noah's Flood



## cih1355

I have been reading through the book of Genesis and I just read about Noah's Covenant where God said that He would not destroy the earth again with a flood. Just out of curiosity, where do some people get the idea that Noah's Flood was limited to a particular geographical location? A local flood cannot destroy the whole earth.


----------



## ericfromcowtown

By some people, are you referring to secular academics? I think that the biblical account is quite clear in that the flood was global in scale.

I have heard secular historians or geologists try to account for the "flood story" by correlating it to geographically wide-spread (but not global) flooding that is said to have occured at the end of the Pleistocene, when dams holding back huge glacial lakes, which were fed by the melting ice sheets, broke. These catastrophic floods, it is claimed, later translated into the flood stories prevalent in various parts of the world.


----------



## tdowns

*Actually,*

Many Christians, believe in a local flood, which took out all human inhabitants, of the Earth, so it does not affect human lineage, etc. Also, why would that negate the promise, the promise obviously was held, in that, another flood didn't take out the "Earth", as they knew it. 

The arguments I've heard, is that Earth, is used, to describe their totality at the time, and although, I don't know the scriptures myself, and don't hold to the view, I've heard it said, that there are many scriptures, where the same language, of the Earth being wiped out is used, when in fact, it just meant major destruction of an area, or people?????? I've even hear it compared to, God so Loved the World...in the sense, of defining, Earth, World...not necessarily meaning everything, or total.

At the time, the human inhabitants of the Earth, would of been located, in a vicinity, that could of been covered in water, to the extent, that someone on a boat, could not see land...in a very real way, to Noah, the Earth was covered.

I'm not defending the view, just a quick summary, of what I've read from threads not too long ago. Do a search. I think it was discussed in detail.

I don't find a local flood that wipes out all people but Noah to be theologically problematic...but I'm open to correction.

I used to be totally against it, but, I was assuming, a local flood meant people other than Noah lived elsewhere on the planet and survived, therefore messing with other areas of scripture.


----------



## MOSES

Side note:

This is slightly off topic but it is something to think about.

If God promised Noah and his descendants (all mankind) that he would never again destroy the whole earth (by flood), then why do so many Christians not believe this promise and teach that God will destroy the earth, but this time by fire?

That does not sound like much of a promise "I promise not to destroy the earth again, by water (fingers crossed)..but I will destory it by fire"

e.g., I punched my neigbor in the nose because he deserved it...then I promise to never punch him again..(because next time I will hit him with a hammer).
That is not much of a promise.

Personally, I take God's promise as secure, that he will never again destroy the earth...(but when he promised that to Noah, it just so happens to fall within the context of the flood)


----------



## reformedman

The flood waters went over quite a number of feet over the highest mountain.


----------



## VirginiaHuguenot

Edward Stillingfleet (_Origines Sacrae_) and Matthew (_Synopsis_ and _Annotations_ at Genesis 7.19) both allow that the deluge need not have been universal over the entire geographic earth, as long as it is reckoned to be universal with respect to covering all areas populated by man and beast.

_Synopsis_:



> It is not necessary to conclude that the flood was universal with respect to the entire earth, but only with respect to the human race: Now, it is in no way probable that the entire earth, in the space of the one thousand, six hundred and fifty-six years before the flood, was inhabited by men, since, in a much longer space from the flood, it has not be occupied. If, therefore, we suppose that the animals were increased in the earth in greater numbers and more diffusedly than men (which seems most probable to me, since the production of animals happens by the same method as the production of fish, by the productive or prolific virtue both of the land and of the water granted by God, Genesis 1:20, 21, 24), it can be said that not all living things were blotted out, but those only which were inhabiting the same parts of the earth as men. Objection: But all animals are said to be destroyed. Response: This is certainly true to the extent the flood was spreading itself: However, it was not at all necessary that the destruction of them should extend beyond the boundaries of that part of the earth which men were inhabiting. For, since the occasion of this flood was the sin of men, who were punished in the animals, which were destroyed only for their sakes, it was unnecessary to extend it further. A further question: But to what end was God directing with such great care all of the animals to be introduced into the ark, unless all things would perish in the flood? Response: Let us posit that the flood overtook all Asia, or even the whole world, formerly known and habitable (but not America): could it not be that this was a sufficient reason why the beasts would be preserved in the ark, namely, for the use of the men then living, to whom the animals, scattered at so great a distance and already made savage, would in no way be serviceable (Stillingfleet’s _Origines Sacræ_ 3:4).



_Annotations_:



> Gen 7:19. Profane wits pretend this to be impossible, because of the vast height of divers mountains. But, 1. This cannot be thought impossible by any man that believeth a God; to whom it was as easy to bring forth a sufficiency of water, for this end, as to speak a word. And if we acknowledge a miracle of the Divine power and providence here, it is no more than even heathens have confessed in other cases. 2. Peradventure this flood might not be simply universal over the whole earth, but only over all the habitable world, where either men or beasts lived; which was as much as either the meritorious cause of the flood, men's sins, or the end of it, the destruction of all men and beasts, required. And the or that whole heaven may be understood of that which was over all the habitable parts of it. And whereas our modern heathens, that miscall themselves Christians, laugh at the history of this flood upon this and the like occasions, as if it were an idle romance; they may please to note, that their predecessors, the ancient and wiser heathens, have divers of them acknowledged the truth of it, though they also mixed it with their fables, which was neither strange nor unusual for them to do. Lactantius appeals to the heathens of his age concerning it. Nay, there is not only mention of the flood in general, but also of the dove sent out of the ark, in Plutarch, and Berosus, and Abydenus. And the memory of this general flood is preserved to this day among the poor ignorant Indians, who asked the Christians who invaded their land, whether they ever heard of such a thing, and whether another flood was to be expected? And the Chinese writers relate, that but one person, whom they call Puoncuus, with his family, were saved in the flood, and all the rest perished.


----------



## tdowns

*Just an FYI*

I'm not defending this site, or info....but interesting....I'm still reading and learning myself....

But on local flood....

The Genesis Flood: Why the Bible Says It Must be Local


----------



## Archlute

It is not in the text, and the Christians who promote it are being influenced by academic pressures. I didn't find it convincing when argued by an OT faculty member at WSC, either.

The biggest problem which must be overcome by anybody with an orthodox view of Scripture's inspiration is what to do with 2 Peter 3:5-7. You cannot convincingly reconcile a local flood with Peter's comparison between the worldwide destruction through water then, and the worldwide destruction through fire in the future. For what it's worth, the OT prof had no answer for that passage when it was brought up.


----------



## greenbaggins

MOSES said:


> Side note:
> 
> This is slightly off topic but it is something to think about.
> 
> If God promised Noah and his descendants (all mankind) that he would never again destroy the whole earth (by flood), then why do so many Christians not believe this promise and teach that God will destroy the earth, but this time by fire?
> 
> That does not sound like much of a promise "I promise not to destroy the earth again, by water (fingers crossed)..but I will destory it by fire"
> 
> e.g., I punched my neigbor in the nose because he deserved it...then I promise to never punch him again..(because next time I will hit him with a hammer).
> That is not much of a promise.
> 
> Personally, I take God's promise as secure, that he will never again destroy the earth...(but when he promised that to Noah, it just so happens to fall within the context of the flood)



The reason many Christians believe this is 2 Peter 3:5-7

"For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly." 

A couple of points here: notice the close parallelism between the two worlds. One destroyed through water, the other through fire (although, from other passages, we learn that it is a purifying fire. Much will be destroyed, and much will be purified. I advocate a position of both continuity and discontinuity between the present world and the purified world). Note also the phrase "for fire." This does indicate a fiery judgment, and the inhabitants are clearly not the only recipients of the judgment, since verse 7 clearly says "the now-existing heavens and earth," a phrase that indicates the entirety of the world.


----------



## Hippo

The book Amazon.com: A Biblical Case for an Old Earth: David Snoke: Books contains a good biblical defence for a local flood scenario.

We are so used to translations that we do sometimes take it for granted that the context of the words used in translations can only allow for a single meaning.

What is certain is that all mankind (with the obvious exceptions) perished in the flood, the actual physical extent of the flood is perhaps not as far beyond questions as some would believe.


----------



## Archlute

1. The author does not adequately deal with the full passage in 2 Peter, leaving out a key discussion of v.7 and the fact that Peter ties the "whole world" not merely to men, but to the entire planet (and here the heavens also!).

2. He may be ignorant of the fact (if not intentionally deceptive) that good exegetical conclusions are not made by word count. If "kol-erets" shows up some 40 times by his count meaning "all the earth", and another 200 some times meaning "all the people" (and I have no idea of the accuracy of even this piece of his work), that does not therefore mean that the flood narrative is assuredly weighted toward the latter. In fact, it means nothing other than that sometimes the word is used with one meaning, and sometimes another. It is an argument meant to persuade those who do not know any better.

3. Josephus, Rabbinical musings, or Greek mythology are not considered weighty point-provers in evangelical Protestant exegetical method.


----------



## Archlute

Thanks Lane, you got there before me.


----------



## blhowes

Some young-earth scientists use Noah's flood to explain the fossil record found in the various earth's layers. If Noah's flood were just a local flood in the area where Noah and the rest of the inhabitants lived, is there a good explanation for how fossils ended up in the lower layers - and still be in the 10,000 or so year time frame - particularly in regions on the other side of the world from where the flood occurred?


----------



## Ravens

I just have a few minutes, so this won't be very fleshed out. Some thoughts:

1) If Noah's flood was "local", and God promised never to do it again, then there might be some head-scratching going on when we think about Katrina, or the last colossal Asian Tsunami that happened a couple years ago. 

2) To me, there's plenty of scientific evidence that the flood was global; it's just never put together into a Biblical worldview by secular scientists, and all of the evidence is broken up into pretty significant "local floods" throughout the world. That is, once you have a Biblical worldview, you read the news differently, and start noticing that most of the American midwest was once under water, that a colossal flood is thought to have carved the English Channel, that the Black Sea was once the site of a colossal flood, that marine fossils and what not are found on the tops of mountain ranges, and on and on. 

One would almost think that all the world was once under water.



It's just that their worldview gives them fafillions and zazillions of years to work with, so maybe this whole part of the world was sunk 400,000 years ago, and this other part was deluged 2,000,000 years ago, etc. It's the time-scale that we would most disagree with, not necessarily the evidence, at least in my view.

3) If I'm not mistaken, didn't a Christian first mention plate techtonics? Either way, I would agree with the prevailing scientific worldview that the continents were once all together in one mass, and I think that the Bible actually hints at that when it talks about the waters being gathered together into one place. Why the colossal mountain ranges couldn't have been formed when this massive body broke up and the pieces were slamming into one another and ripped apart is beyond me. If so, then the water wouldn't have had to be high enough to cover Mount Everest as we now know it.

4) I think that the parallel between this and 2 Peter is poignant, as others have pointed out, and a local flood doesn't quite do it justice.

5) I think it is indicative that many people (I'm assuming, probably can't say for sure) who hold to an "old earth" also hold to a "local flood". Maybe that's a bit harsh, but some of you probably get my drift.


----------



## a mere housewife

Just a note that the flood in Greek mythology is definitely understood as universal rather than local -- as here, in Ovid where the earth is destroyed for its wickedness -- specifically violence, and Jove plans 'a breed of men of heaven's make... better than the first': 

Then Jove raised thunderbolt against the earth --
And checked the blow. Would heaven break in fire,
And flames pour over earth from pole to pole?
He then remembered that the Fates had scored
A certain distant hour when sea and land,
Earth and the vault of heaven would be consumed
In universal fire. He put aside
The lightning spear Cyclopean hands
Made as his weapon to assert his will:
Another doom for man came to his mind,
A death that stormed beneath the waves, and fell
From air; and then dark rain began to fall.

It ends with all the earth covered by a 'stilled ocean and on a mountain shalf One man, one woman.'

I think this interesting and an additional argument for universalism as of course the story of the flood would have been handed down from generation to generation and truth mixed with their theological error. It seems that those closer to it understood it as a universal event.


----------



## Davidius

a mere housewife said:


> Just a note that the flood in Greek mythology is definitely understood as universal rather than local -- as here, in Ovid where the earth is destroyed for its wickedness -- specifically violence, and Jove plans 'a breed of men of heaven's make... better than the first':
> 
> Then Jove raised thunderbolt against the earth --
> And checked the blow. Would heaven break in fire,
> And flames pour over earth from pole to pole?
> He then remembered that the Fates had scored
> A certain distant hour when sea and land,
> Earth and the vault of heaven would be consumed
> In universal fire. He put aside
> The lightning spear Cyclopean hands
> Made as his weapon to assert his will:
> Another doom for man came to his mind,
> A death that stormed beneath the waves, and fell
> From air; and then dark rain began to fall.
> 
> It ends with all the earth covered by a 'stilled ocean and on a mountain shalf One man, one woman.'
> 
> I think this interesting and an additional argument for universalism as of course the story of the flood would have been handed down from generation to generation and truth mixed with their theological error. It seems that those closer to it understood it as a universal event.



This does not necessarily prove the point. Universal language is used in the biblical text ("destroy _the earth_"). The detractors' argument is not that the language isn't there, but that it meant something different to the people who wrote it. The literal meaning is superficial. They're saying that the catastrophe was so great in the eyes of the people of the Near East that they used this kind of language to describe it. Thus citing other examples from antiquity which use universal language does not directly answer their charge.


----------



## a mere housewife

I'm not so sure they used their 'literal' symbols so divorced from their literality -- 'earth from pole to pole' etc. I'm not saying Ovid believed what he was writing (I don't know what he believed) but he does seem to represent the story as universal -- not to understand at least the translation that way seems to play games with the symbols used that makes nonsense of language?


----------



## Davidius

a mere housewife said:


> I'm not so sure they used their 'literal' symbols so divorced from their literality -- 'earth from pole to pole' etc. I'm not saying Ovid believed what he was writing (I don't know what he believed) but he does seem to represent the story as universal -- not to understand at least the translation that way seems to play games with the symbols used that makes nonsense of language?



I'm sure the detractors would say the same thing about "the earth." Moses could have easily said "there was water as far as Noah could see," right? 

But since the Ancients had never been to the North and South Poles, I would be interested to see what Ovid actually wrote. I would guess it's language similar to what we see in the scriptural account (something about "the earth" or "the whole earth"). Do you know from where exactly that quote is taken?


----------



## a mere housewife

I would be glad actually if you could find out what the original has in place of 'poles' as well as I was wondering about that -- It's from book one of the Metamorphoses. My edition is translated by Horace Gregory.

I guess my question to the detractors would be when universal language is used and we take it to really mean 'locally', how we are to approach reading books -- what special insight we have independently of our own bias/times to look back at other times and be able to know that people mean something other than what they say? How do I (or someone reading this a hundred years from now) know that in this conversation the detractors don't actually mean that the flood is universal and the - undetractors are arguing, with universal symbols, for a local flood?


----------



## Davidius

a mere housewife said:


> I would be glad actually if you could find out what the original has in place of 'poles' as well as I was wondering about that -- It's from book one of the Metamorphoses. My edition is translated by Horace Gregory.
> 
> I guess my question to the detractors would be when universal language is used and we take it to really mean 'locally', how we are to approach reading books -- what special insight we have independently of our own bias/times to look back at other times and be able to know that people mean something other than what they say? How do I (or someone reading this a hundred years from now) know that in this conversation the detractors don't actually mean that the flood is universal and the - undetractors are arguing, with universal symbols, for a local flood?



That's the question! Whenever we depart from the most natural meaning of the words, we need to provide a good reason for doing so. My guess is that those who interpret these passages as hyperbole are doing so because of "scientific evidence."


----------



## Vonnie Dee

*I've been thinking*

I've been thinking about this myself lately. I must admit that I have not done any research into the matter. However silly it may sound, the thing that got me thinking about it is "kangaroos". I was wondering if it was a "known world" flood because I wonder if Noah had kangaroos on the ark. What about koala bears that only eat eucalyptus? If God "guided" the koala bears to Noah, did He miraculously spring up and sustain the food they would need to survive? Did he make them able to live on what ever vegetation was growing locally until after the flood? After it was over, did they migrate back to the Australia part of the Earth? These things make me go . I know that God can and does do what He wills. I just wonder about the real life logistics of some events in the Bible. I don't doubt if they happened, I just wonder what it "looked like" in real life.


----------



## JBaldwin

Vonnie Dee said:


> I've been thinking about this myself lately. I must admit that I have not done any research into the matter. However silly it may sound, the thing that got me thinking about it is "kangaroos". I was wondering if it was a "known world" flood because I wonder if Noah had kangaroos on the ark. What about koala bears that only eat eucalyptus? If God "guided" the koala bears to Noah, did He miraculously spring up and sustain the food they would need to survive? Did he make them able to live on what ever vegetation was growing locally until after the flood? After it was over, did they migrate back to the Australia part of the Earth? These things make me go . I know that God can and does do what He wills. I just wonder about the real life logistics of some events in the Bible. I don't doubt if they happened, I just wonder what it "looked like" in real life.



If you look in Genesis 10, the geneology of Noah, you find in vs. 25, a man by the name of Peleg. _25 To Eber were born two sons: the name of the one was Peleg, [3] for in his days the earth was divided, and his brother's name was Joktan._ 

I once heard a scientist/theologian discussing this, and he pointed out that this could be an indication that it was in the time of Peleg (his name means division), that God divided up the earth into the continents. This would mean that prior to the flood, all the dry land was on one continent, and Noah would have had access to all the various types of food for the animals. 

Personally, I find it very easy to believe in a worldwide flood. God is omnipotent. If He says that He wiped out the entire world by a flood and saved Noah, his family and each speicies of animal, then I have no problem with that. Replenishing the world after a flood of that nature would be no more difficult for God than creating the world or saving our wretched souls.


----------



## JBaldwin

Incidentally, what put the final lid on the issue for me was when I flew over the Blue Ridge Mountains years ago and noticed how they looked like a giant version of the sand on the seashore when the tide waters recede and deposit the sediment in little "mountains". I could easily imagine a lot of water receding and living the mountains looking like that.


----------



## Anton Bruckner

considering the flood came about 2000 years after Adam. When one includes the average life span of humans in relation to the conducive atmosphere of the newly created earth, the population of the world could have easily topped 2 billion. When one adds the knowledge and the intellect of man with the high population, it is reasonable to estimate that mankind covered the whole face of the earth. From North America, to Australia. Let us remember that the earth that was destroyed looked totally different than it is today.

Population of the PreFlood World


----------



## CalvinandHodges

Must have been some local flood to get the Ark and all of its inhabitants up above the 13,000 foot mark on Mt. Sinai!


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian

Anton Bruckner said:


> considering the flood came about 2000 years after Adam. When one includes the average life span of humans in relation to the conducive atmosphere of the newly created earth, the population of the world could have easily topped 2 billion. When one adds the knowledge and the intellect of man with the high population, it is reasonable to estimate that mankind covered the whole face of the earth. From North America, to Australia. Let us remember that the earth that was destroyed looked totally different than it is today.
> 
> Population of the PreFlood World



Not to get off-topic but is the "earth looked different" argument ever used to explain plate tectonic theory? 

(I am YEC so do not read too much into it).


----------



## CalvinandHodges

If God was planning a local flood, then why did he not instruct Noah to just move out of the way? To China or Egypt until the flood was over?


----------



## Reformed Covenanter

CalvinandHodges said:


> If God was planning a local flood, then why did he not instruct Noah to just move out of the way? To China or Egypt until the flood was over?



Precisely. To be truthful, this idea of a local flood just sounds like another compromise with humanism. Is the Bible infallible, or is human reason/scientific findings our infallible guide? Personally, I am tired of this sort of compromise.


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian

Amen Daniel.


----------



## Hippo

Daniel Ritchie said:


> CalvinandHodges said:
> 
> 
> 
> If God was planning a local flood, then why did he not instruct Noah to just move out of the way? To China or Egypt until the flood was over?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Precisely. To be truthful, this idea of a local flood just sounds like another compromise with humanism. Is the Bible infallible, or is human reason/scientific findings our infallible guide? Personally, I am tired of this sort of compromise.
Click to expand...


No one would argue that compromise is wrong, however understanding history in the light of evidence that does not contradict the bible cannot be anything other than using our God given reason.


----------



## DMcFadden

> Not to get off-topic but is the "earth looked different" argument ever used to explain plate tectonic theory?



Not off topic at all. YEC folks used to fight plate tectonics rabidly. Now that Dr. Baumgardner’s work has shown that rapid subduction could account for the phenomena of plate tectonics in a catastrophic model (e.g., world wide flood), AiG and other creationist organizations have adopted it as plausible.


----------



## ReformedSinner

Local flood is not a give-in to humanism at all. Many good solid conservative Reformed Christians believed in local flood and their exegesis is solid, maybe not a put-down argument but definitely worthy of consideration as alternative answer to the question at hand. The point that why doesn't God just tell Noah to move to China is irrelevant, the point is that God WANTS Noah to WITNESS His act of judgment on the sinfulness of humankind around him.

As for 2 Peter's use of parallelism with Noah's flood. Very good point, but also not the only answer. NT has always taken the liberty of expanding OT imagery or event to a fuller, more complete fulfillment in light of Christ. Peter could of very well have known it's a local flood, but the incident itself significes God's future complete destruction of sinful earth as a whole in light of Christ.

The truth is I don't really have an answer for I evaluate both sides and realized both sides have equally significant exegetical "proofs" to back up their theory. And no the local flood gang didn't just use extra-biblical humanism as their only answer.


----------



## CalvinandHodges

Rev. Chen:

I have not seen any decent exegesis from those who hold to the local flood theory. Maybe you can point me to a website or two?

Certainly, if it was a local flood Noah would not have to carry birds in the Ark? Gen. 6:20.

When God created a local destruction - such as Sodom and Gomorrah - he simply told Lot to leave.

Thanks in advance,

-CH


----------



## Grymir

Daniel Ritchie said:


> CalvinandHodges said:
> 
> 
> 
> If God was planning a local flood, then why did he not instruct Noah to just move out of the way? To China or Egypt until the flood was over?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Precisely. To be truthful, this idea of a local flood just sounds like another compromise with humanism. Is the Bible infallible, or is human reason/scientific findings our infallible guide? Personally, I am tired of this sort of compromise.
Click to expand...



YES!!!! and Mega Ditto's Daniel!!!! The local flood theory is just another weak attempt to discredit the Bible in the eyes of the world. If a lie is repeated long enough, people start to believe it. The fossils and plate tectonics have been a part of YEC. (The foundations of the deep opened up in Gen.) Yes, Kangaroos were once in the middle east.

There were no poodles on the Ark with Noah either!


----------



## bookslover

VirginiaHuguenot said:


> Edward Stillingfleet (_Origines Sacrae_) and Matthew (_Synopsis_ and _Annotations_ at Genesis 7.19) both allow that the deluge need not have been universal over the entire geographic earth, as long as it is reckoned to be universal with respect to covering all areas populated by man and beast.
> 
> _Synopsis_:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is not necessary to conclude that the flood was universal with respect to the entire earth, but only with respect to the human race: Now, it is in no way probable that the entire earth, in the space of the one thousand, six hundred and fifty-six years before the flood, was inhabited by men, since, in a much longer space from the flood, it has not be occupied. If, therefore, we suppose that the animals were increased in the earth in greater numbers and more diffusedly than men (which seems most probable to me, since the production of animals happens by the same method as the production of fish, by the productive or prolific virtue both of the land and of the water granted by God, Genesis 1:20, 21, 24), it can be said that not all living things were blotted out, but those only which were inhabiting the same parts of the earth as men. Objection: But all animals are said to be destroyed. Response: This is certainly true to the extent the flood was spreading itself: However, it was not at all necessary that the destruction of them should extend beyond the boundaries of that part of the earth which men were inhabiting. For, since the occasion of this flood was the sin of men, who were punished in the animals, which were destroyed only for their sakes, it was unnecessary to extend it further. A further question: But to what end was God directing with such great care all of the animals to be introduced into the ark, unless all things would perish in the flood? Response: Let us posit that the flood overtook all Asia, or even the whole world, formerly known and habitable (but not America): could it not be that this was a sufficient reason why the beasts would be preserved in the ark, namely, for the use of the men then living, to whom the animals, scattered at so great a distance and already made savage, would in no way be serviceable (Stillingfleet’s _Origines Sacræ_ 3:4).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Annotations_:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gen 7:19. Profane wits pretend this to be impossible, because of the vast height of divers mountains. But, 1. This cannot be thought impossible by any man that believeth a God; to whom it was as easy to bring forth a sufficiency of water, for this end, as to speak a word. And if we acknowledge a miracle of the Divine power and providence here, it is no more than even heathens have confessed in other cases. 2. Peradventure this flood might not be simply universal over the whole earth, but only over all the habitable world, where either men or beasts lived; which was as much as either the meritorious cause of the flood, men's sins, or the end of it, the destruction of all men and beasts, required. And the or that whole heaven may be understood of that which was over all the habitable parts of it. And whereas our modern heathens, that miscall themselves Christians, laugh at the history of this flood upon this and the like occasions, as if it were an idle romance; they may please to note, that their predecessors, the ancient and wiser heathens, have divers of them acknowledged the truth of it, though they also mixed it with their fables, which was neither strange nor unusual for them to do. Lactantius appeals to the heathens of his age concerning it. Nay, there is not only mention of the flood in general, but also of the dove sent out of the ark, in Plutarch, and Berosus, and Abydenus. And the memory of this general flood is preserved to this day among the poor ignorant Indians, who asked the Christians who invaded their land, whether they ever heard of such a thing, and whether another flood was to be expected? And the Chinese writers relate, that but one person, whom they call Puoncuus, with his family, were saved in the flood, and all the rest perished.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


So, the water only went where it knew the people and animals were, leaving those places empty of people and animals alone? Hmmmmmm.


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian

CalvinandHodges said:


> Rev. Chen:
> 
> I have not seen any decent exegesis from those who hold to the local flood theory. Maybe you can point me to a website or two?
> 
> Certainly, if it was a local flood Noah would not have to carry birds in the Ark? Gen. 6:20.
> 
> When God created a local destruction - such as Sodom and Gomorrah - he simply told Lot to leave.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> -CH



Excellent Points.


----------



## JBaldwin

How long have biblical scholars been questioning the world wide flood? I've always been under the impression that the "local flood" theories were generated from liberal scholars around the same time that other parts of the Scriptures (such as God parting the Red Sea) were being questioned, i.e. is during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Didn't the church traditionally hold to the worldwide flood view until that time? 

Does anyone know what Calvin, Luther and others believed?


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian

From Calvin's Commentary on Genesis:



> 17. And the flood was forty days , etc. Moses copiously insists upon this fact, in order to show that the whole world was immersed in the waters. Moreover, it is to be regarded as the special design of this narrations that we should not ascribe to fortune, the flood by which the world perished; how ever customary it may be for men to cast some veil over the works of God, which may obscure either his goodness or his judgments manifested in them. But seeing it is plainly declared, that whatever was flourishing on the earth was destroyed, we hence infer, that it was an indisputable and signal judgment of God; especially since Noah alone remained secure, because he had embraced, by faith, the word in which salvation was contained. He then recalls to memory what we before have said; namely how desperate had been the impiety, and how enormous the crimes of men, by which God was induced to destroy the whole world; whereas, on account of his great clemency, he would have spared his own workmanship, had he seen that any milder remedy could have been effectually applied. These two things, directly opposed to each other, he connects together; that the whole human race was destroyed, but that Noah and his family safely escaped. Hence we learn how profitable it was for Noah, disregarding the world, to obey God alone: which Moses states not so much for the sake of praising the man, as for that of inviting us to imitate his example. Moreover, lest the multitude of sinners should draw us away from God; we must patiently bear that the ungodly should hold us up to ridicule, and should triumph over us, until the Lord shall show by the final issue, that our obedience has been approved by him. In this sense, Peter teaches that Noah’s deliverance from the universal deluge was a figure of baptism, (1 Peter 3:21 as if he had said, the method of the salvation, which we receive through baptism, degrees with this deliverance of Noah. Since at this time also the world is full of unbelievers as it was then; therefore it is necessary for us to separate ourselves from the greater multitude, that the Lord may snatch us from destruction. In the same manner, the Church is fitly, and justly, compared to the ark. But we must keep in mind the similitude by which they mutually correspond with each other; for that is derived from the word of God alone; because as Noah believing the promise of God, gathered himself his wife and his children together, in order that under a certain appearance of death, he might emerge out of death; so it is fitting that we should renounce the world and die, in order that the Lord may quicken us by his word. For nowhere else is there any security of salvation. The Papists, however, act ridiculously who fabricate for us an ark without the word.


----------



## Jerusalem Blade

Genesis 6:7:

And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air...

6:17:

And behold [saith the LORD], I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

7:19:

And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

7:20:

Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

7:21:

And all flesh that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

7:22:

All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

-------

Does it not sound as if the LORD were making irrefutably clear what He did?


----------



## TimV

Yes, it's clear. And rainbows are everywhere, not just in the Mideast.


----------



## Jerusalem Blade

Hello Shawn, I want to respond to your remarks (post #4) because they bring up a good question.



MOSES said:


> Side note:
> 
> This is slightly off topic but it is something to think about.
> 
> If God promised Noah and his descendants (all mankind) that he would never again destroy the whole earth (by flood), then why do so many Christians not believe this promise and teach that God will destroy the earth, but this time by fire?
> 
> That does not sound like much of a promise "I promise not to destroy the earth again, by water (fingers crossed)..but I will destory it by fire"
> 
> e.g., I punched my neigbor in the nose because he deserved it...then I promise to never punch him again..(because next time I will hit him with a hammer).
> That is not much of a promise.
> 
> Personally, I take God's promise as secure, that he will never again destroy the earth...(but when he promised that to Noah, it just so happens to fall within the context of the flood)



This is what the LORD actually promised,

"...neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done...(Gen 8:21)

I establish My covenant with you, and with your seed after you...neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth....the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh." (Gen 9:9, 11, 15)​
I preached on the flood (and the final judgment) to a tribe of primitive Africans that had never seen a boat, although they had a pond near them. I told them to envision a house that floated on the water. They understood that the flood was not simply "destruction" but a cleansing of the earth from the evil that had overrun it. And in the final judgment, seeing as God's people were now too many to put on a boat, God sent His Son and all who were "in Him" (I often illustrated this with a bottle of water with a leaf in it) these would not perish when the final flood of fire came, because everyone who had the Spirit of the Son in him or her would be fireproof, and would not burn, but the fire would be a joy to them.

He will not smite every living thing again because now there is a vast multitude of people who belong to Him — the holy nation which shall be the new humanity dwelling on the cleansed and renewed earth — so the fire Peter speaks of in 2 Peter 2, and Malachi in his 4th chapter, is a ridding of all that causes death and sin and defilement (Rev 21:27), that God may keep His promise to His Son's Bride that when He makes all things new, and wipes all tears from her eyes, 

*"...there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Rev 21:4)*​
It is the fire of purification, the prelude to joy.

This is why we call on people to seek refuge in Him in whose heart is the fountain of eternal youth, that they perish not with those who love death.


----------

