# Christ and Culture Revisited



## py3ak (Jun 22, 2008)

Here is a little snippet from Derek Thomas' interview with D.A. Carson about the latter's book, _Christ and Culture Revisited_. There are some valuable thoughts there.



> Redemption terminology in the NT is so bound up with Christ's work for and in the church that to extend it to whatever good we do in the broader world risks a shift in focus. Not for a moment do I want to deny that we are to serve as salt and light, that exiles may be called to do good in the pagan cities where Providence has appointed them to live (Jer 29), that every square foot of this world is under Christ's universal reign (even though that reign is still being contested), that the nations of the world will bring their "goods" into the Jerusalem that comes down from above. But many of those who speak easily and fluently of redeeming the culture soon focus all their energy shaping fiscal and political policies and the like, and merely assume the gospel. A gospel that is merely assumed, that does no more than perk away in the background while the focus of our attention is on the "redemption" of the culture in which we find ourselves, is lost within a generation or two. At the same time, I worry about Christians who focus their attention so narrowly on getting people "saved" that they care little about doing good to all people, even if especially to the household of God. Getting this right is not easy, and inevitably priorities will shift a little in various parts of the world, under various regimes. Part of the complexity of the discussion, I think, is bound up with what the church as church is responsible for, and what Christians as Christians are responsible for: I have argued that failure to make this distinction tends to lead toward sad conclusions.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Jun 22, 2008)

py3ak said:


> Here is a little snippet from Derek Thomas' interview with D.A. Carson about the latter's book, _Christ and Culture Revisited_. There are some valuable thoughts there.
> 
> 
> 
> > Redemption terminology in the NT is so bound up with Christ's work for and in the church that to extend it to whatever good we do in the broader world risks a shift in focus. Not for a moment do I want to deny that we are to serve as salt and light, that exiles may be called to do good in the pagan cities where Providence has appointed them to live (Jer 29), that every square foot of this world is under Christ's universal reign (even though that reign is still being contested), that the nations of the world will bring their "goods" into the Jerusalem that comes down from above. But many of those who speak easily and fluently of redeeming the culture soon focus all their energy shaping fiscal and political policies and the like, and merely assume the gospel. A gospel that is merely assumed, that does no more than perk away in the background while the focus of our attention is on the "redemption" of the culture in which we find ourselves, is lost within a generation or two. At the same time, I worry about Christians who focus their attention so narrowly on getting people "saved" that they care little about doing good to all people, even if especially to the household of God. Getting this right is not easy, and inevitably priorities will shift a little in various parts of the world, under various regimes. Part of the complexity of the discussion, I think, is bound up with what the church as church is responsible for, and what Christians as Christians are responsible for: I have argued that failure to make this distinction tends to lead toward sad conclusions.



There are some useful exhortations in this quotation; however, do you not think that his view of redemption (or salvation) is too narrow? Certainly, in the OT, salvation had to do with a lot more than the salvation of the individual.


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## py3ak (Jun 22, 2008)

> But many of those who speak easily and fluently of redeeming the culture soon focus all their energy shaping fiscal and political policies and the like, and merely assume the gospel. *A gospel that is merely assumed, that does no more than perk away in the background while the focus of our attention is on the "redemption" of the culture in which we find ourselves, is lost within a generation or two.* At the same time, I worry about Christians who focus their attention so narrowly on getting people "saved" that they care little about doing good to all people, even if especially to the household of God.



Daniel, I actually think he is careful to acknowledge both aspects in this quote: and the bolded part is what I liked best.


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## Pilgrim (Jun 22, 2008)

I want to get this book.


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## Pilgrim (Jun 22, 2008)

py3ak said:


> > But many of those who speak easily and fluently of redeeming the culture soon focus all their energy shaping fiscal and political policies and the like, and merely assume the gospel. *A gospel that is merely assumed, that does no more than perk away in the background while the focus of our attention is on the "redemption" of the culture in which we find ourselves, is lost within a generation or two.* At the same time, I worry about Christians who focus their attention so narrowly on getting people "saved" that they care little about doing good to all people, even if especially to the household of God.
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel, I actually think he is careful to acknowledge both aspects in this quote: and the bolded part is what I liked best.



The bolded part is a charge I've often seen leveled at the Kuyperians as well as other types of culture warriors. This is a concern that some have with the "word and deed" ministries we see today as well, that they will just end up being another variation of the social gospel.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Jun 22, 2008)

py3ak said:


> > But many of those who speak easily and fluently of redeeming the culture soon focus all their energy shaping fiscal and political policies and the like, and merely assume the gospel. *A gospel that is merely assumed, that does no more than perk away in the background while the focus of our attention is on the "redemption" of the culture in which we find ourselves, is lost within a generation or two.* At the same time, I worry about Christians who focus their attention so narrowly on getting people "saved" that they care little about doing good to all people, even if especially to the household of God.
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel, I actually think he is careful to acknowledge both aspects in this quote: and the bolded part is what I liked best.



There can be no salvation of culture, if there is not first the widespread salvation of individuals.


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## caddy (Jun 23, 2008)

Pilgrim said:


> I want to get this book.


 
I do too. I have it on my short list. Carson's book on Spiritual Reformation and Prayer was a wonderful read!


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## Pergamum (Jun 23, 2008)

Are we called to save cultures? And what is the difference between culture and cultures? Isn't the Gospel counter-cultural too? Don't missionaries "destroy" culture - at least some aspects of it? What does it man to "redeem" culture?

I ordered this book and look forward to reading it.


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## caddy (Jun 23, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> Are we called to save cultures? And what is the difference between culture and cultures? Isn't the Gospel counter-cultural too? Don't missionaries "destroy" culture - at least some aspects of it? What does it man to "redeem" culture?
> 
> I ordered this book and look forward to reading it.


 
I think Carson has problems with that designation as well from the Reformation21 interview with D.Thomas. We are called to be "salt" and "Light" to a dying world.


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## travis (Jun 23, 2008)

I had a very difficult time with this book. I think it may just be written beyond my understanding.


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## Pergamum (Jun 23, 2008)

Travis: You may want to read the original book on Christ and Culture first. I think without knowing about the first book, this book might be confusing. This new book is basically a redo of the old book and uses a lot of the same verbiage from what I understand. Your lack of understanding might not be mere ignorance at all but merely an ignorance of the old original book.


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## caddy (Jun 23, 2008)

travis said:


> I had a very difficult time with this book. I think it may just be written beyond my understanding.


 
Let me know IF your interested in selling it then...Travis!


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## bookslover (Jul 9, 2008)

The book that Carson is reacting to is H. Richard Niebuhr's "Christ and Culture" from 1951. Richard (1894-1962) was, of course, the brother of the more famous Reinhold Niebuhr (1892-1971).

Despite the German names, they were born and raised in Missouri, by the way. They were Protestant mainline liberals who were influenced by Karl Barth.

So, one would probably have to read H. Richard Niebuhr's book first in order to get the full benefit of Carson's.

By the way: I was kind of disappointed to see Carson's book. Where's the commentary on 1-3 John that I've been hearing about (for at least 10 years) that he's supposedly working on? Grrr.


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