# Is skipping church grounds for church discipline?



## Andres (May 19, 2010)

Is skipping/missing church for extended periods of time grounds for church discipline? I am talking about members who have taken vows. We all understand that people get sick and need to stay home or go out of town, etc. I am of course not talking about these. Aside from illness or an emergency is there ever any reason to stay out of church repeatedly, such as several months in a row? 

Pastors, how do you deal with a person or a family that just quits coming to church?


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## Mushroom (May 19, 2010)

Not a Pastor, Andrew, but I would say that faithful shepherds are responsible to the flock to ascertain the reasons for a member forsaking fellowship, and if it is not for the exceptions you cite, should admonish, exhort, rebuke, and finally discipline said member out of loving concern for them.


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## Grimmson (May 19, 2010)

If some one is skipping church I think it is important to ask why? Which calls for the need for that person to be visited. If the person is skipping because of work, and the person couldn't find either another job or change schedules then in cases like that their should be lenience. Particularly if the church isnt willing to assist the person. If it the case that the person doesn't want to go then I think a meeting with the pastor is required, because there may be some unknown factor at play for why the person not present. And then discipline if there no sign of repentance. Also it is important throughout the given week for church members to reach out to the person prior to discipline being given.


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## Jack K (May 19, 2010)

Skipping church is often a sign of deeper spiritual struggle. Very often, a person who's skipping feels far from God for some reason, and additionally may feel unwelcome or judged if he were to return to church after so long away. I would start by trying to learn what's really going on and then encouraging the person with the welcome of God revealed in the gospel.

Now we recognize this is the first step in what the church calls "discipline." But I wouldn't call it that aloud. I'd be very careful to avoid anything that might appear to be a scolding attitude, because chances are it's the last thing that person needs to hear.

Down the road, if the person continues to refuse Christian fellowship, he must of course undergo discipline and be removed from the church rolls. But we should start by showing people that, if they're hurting or struggling, church is a safe place to find healing and welcome.


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## BertMulder (May 19, 2010)

Jack K said:


> Skipping church is often a sign of deeper spiritual struggle. Very often, a person who's skipping feels far from God for some reason, and additionally may feel unwelcome or judged if he were to return to church after so long away. I would start by trying to learn what's really going on and then encouraging the person with the welcome of God revealed in the gospel.
> 
> Now we recognize this is the first step in what the church calls "discipline." But I wouldn't call it that aloud. I'd be very careful to avoid anything that might appear to be a scolding attitude, because chances are it's the last thing that person needs to hear.
> 
> Down the road, if the person continues to refuse Christian fellowship, he must of course undergo discipline and be removed from the church rolls. But we should start by showing people that, if they're hurting or struggling, church is a safe place to find healing and welcome.


 
Very much agreed.

One side note...

If one is missing church because of work, and this work is not a work of 'immediate necessity', then this person ought to be spoken to by the elders regarding his use of the sabbath for secular labour, which is prohibited by the 4th commandment, both in the 'continental reformed view' and the 'presbyterian view'.


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## ZackF (May 19, 2010)

Andres said:


> Is skipping/missing church for extended periods of time grounds for church discipline? I am talking about members who have taken vows. We all understand that people get sick and need to stay home or go out of town, etc. I am of course not talking about these. Aside from illness or an emergency is there ever any reason to stay out of church repeatedly, such as several months in a row?
> 
> Pastors, how do you deal with a person or a family that just quits coming to church?


 
If one is missing church for poor reasons then they are being disciplined by default. Not hearing the Word, receiving sacraments or sharing fellowship are all consequences of discipline anyway. I think, as mentioned above, pastoral investigation and care is probably what they need. There is likely sin issue though.


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## JoyFullMom (May 19, 2010)

Wow...while I agree with church discipline and believe it shows *love*...I have to say that if these people have been missing for months and the church is *just now* going to show concern, I think the point is going to be lost.


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## Scott1 (May 19, 2010)

> *Andres*
> Is skipping/missing church for extended periods of time grounds for church discipline?



Biblically, the best answer is it could be.

We live in a generation, not unlike others, where the idea of any commitment beyond one's self is almost a shock.

Church attendance is viewed through the self-centered prism of personal choice, without any reference to duty to God or neighbor, let alone to the covenant community of believers.

So we have a generation of people who think they attend church without having any real commitment while doing so, and in a short while find something they do not like, or some person, and then they "hop" somewhere else or drop out.

In this, there is no consideration to a God who has saved you, commanded you to live by the Lordship of Christ, and according to His Word.

So the person who does not attend does not:

1) hear the Word taught authoritatively
2) take the sacraments
3) serve the covenant community with gifts and talents God has given
4) pray for visible church
5) tithe
6) worship God corporately
7) witness with His life as being in the Body of Christ

These are very, very serious things when one understands them biblically.

Living one's life apart from the visible Body of Christ is a part of denying Christ with your life. It is not "normal" for a believer. It is something for a believer to be ashamed of and to repent of. One that will bring God's chastisement on the life of the disobedient believer.

It's almost like a fish outside of water- it can survive a short while outside, but is very focused upon getting back in because it is natural and the only place it can really survive.

Someone who is able, but does not associate with Christ's Body is living a disorderly life pattern, one that would likely mean they ought refrain from taking the Lord's Supper until they have established themselves again in substantive fellowship.

This understanding all comes from a "high" view of the church- it's not merely a voluntary, conditional association of consenting adults- it is the Body of Christ. Denying that visibly is to deny Christ's Body.

Fellowship with the Body of Christ is not conditioned on one's evaluation of perfection of the Body, or even liking everyone in it, or feeling personally fulfilled at every moment. It's about more than that- it's about your duty to God, to the household of faith whom God has appointed for you, and about that witness before the world with your life.

To live apart from that, as a lifestyle, is a disorderly life pattern for a believer.

A disorderly life pattern requires discipline.

But remember, there are many forms of "discipline"- formal and informal, and of course there are valid reasons for absence- so we understand we are describing willful, disobedient absence- whether by carelessness, ignorance, avoidance or direct disobedience.

It's also somewhat subjective to determine "extended"- but even one Lord's Day of failing this is grounds for self discipline.

Probably one of most difficult biblical truths is that when a person professes to be a believer, but then shows no interest in His Body over an extended time, no interest at all- excuses maybe, guilt maybe, but nothing that provokes visible association-
It undermines the assurance for salvation of that person- and tends, not with absolute certainty, but tends to show they never really were a believer in the first place.

One way I have seen this recognized is with Deacon follow up with any member who misses more than 4 Lord's Day worship services in a row. This is done initially under a genuine pretense of, "Is everything okay? Is there anything we can do to help?" And, of course, allowing for many reasons and circumstances where someone might be absent for extended periods.

But this kind of accountability goes a long way toward binding covenant community together in caring.


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## Andres (May 19, 2010)

Scott, thank you sir for summing that up so beautifully. I agree with you words completely.


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## Don Kistler (May 19, 2010)

Taking vows before God is a serious matter. Violating a vow taken to God is a serious matter. It would be if it was a marriage vow, why not if it was a membership vow?


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## au5t1n (May 20, 2010)

Andres said:


> Scott, thank you sir for summing that up so beautifully. I agree with you words completely.


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## Romans922 (May 20, 2010)

Yes, God's discipline begins at the preaching of His Word (Hebrews 10:25).


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## calgal (May 20, 2010)

Question (thanks Polly for picking up on this): if it takes several months to notice a family missing and to then begin to act upon this knowledge (note this is not for a Coral Ridge sized church), what does that say about the church's attitude towards its membership?  The next question is where have the deacons and elders been, especially if the first time they hear about a crisis is when they show up to chew out the non attending family?


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## Andres (May 20, 2010)

calgal said:


> Question (thanks Polly for picking up on this): if it takes several months to notice a family missing and to then begin to act upon this knowledge (note this is not for a Coral Ridge sized church), what does that say about the church's attitude towards its membership?  The next question is where have the deacons and elders been, especially if the first time they hear about a crisis is when they show up to chew out the non attending family?


 
You do have a point, but I also think you are reading something into this thread that no one has insinuated. My question was is church discipline appropriate for a family that doesn't attend church anymore. Anytime an issue comes to the point where church discipline must be meted out, it's understood that this is a "last straw" of sorts and that several other steps have been taken to get the member to repent first.


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## Caroline (May 20, 2010)

I'm with the people who say that the first thing should be to discover the reason for missing church. And I should add that, although we live in a lax culture, etc, there should be a great deal of caution about jumping to conclusions regarding motives until the matter has been discussed.

I was rather stung at times when I first started going to a Reformed church by accusations that were based upon cultural norms rather than my own personal struggles. 

For example, I refused to become a member for quite some time, and someone approached me and went on at length about how people today don't feel that someone should have authority over them, want to be able to choose everything for themselves, don't want to be tied to a church, etc, and addressed my refusal from that standpoint. All good counsel in its own way, and the individual meant well. But my real reasons had nothing whatsoever to do with that. I simply felt that I was not good enough for the church--didn't understand a lot of things. I was afraid I would make a mistake without realizing it. I understood that I could not be kicked out of the church if I was not a member, and so I refused to become a member so that they could not make me leave. Then someone informed me that actually, even if I were (God forbid) excommunicated (although they couldn't imagine why I would be excommunicated), I could still attend the church. Armed with that knowledge, I went ahead and became a member.

Sometimes things can be settled with a few questions and a little patience. So I'd say that the leaders should always move cautiously and ask questions in cases like this. There's always time to shoot people later, but if you start off blasting the church discipline gun, then you may only further discourage them.


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## Scott1 (May 20, 2010)

Caroline said:


> I'm with the people who say that the first thing should be to discover the reason for missing church. And I should add that, although we live in a lax culture, etc, there should be a great deal of caution about jumping to conclusions regarding motives until the matter has been discussed.
> 
> I was rather stung at times when I first started going to a Reformed church by accusations that were based upon cultural norms rather than my own personal struggles.
> 
> ...


 
All very understandable- and a very particular situation is being described from one person's perception.

But look at this by way of illustration (not to call attention to this particular situation, but in the spirit of helping others in similar circumstances right now).

How could we glorify God most in this situation?

Look at God's Providence here- a bit of indirect rebuke by a believer was used it seems toward the end of bringing the issue to conclusion (commitment evidenced by membership).

Now if that believer did so with a wrong attitude, or maintained a wrong attitude going forward, that would be another matter- but that is not the case here.

Yes, "personal" reasons delay many things- but they are not the only consideration, and one can see from your post you are understanding that, especially with the benefit of hindsight.

Sometimes in the Christian life, we are called to do things we do not want to do- even though we have reasons for not wanting to do them.


1) Why not let the Pastor and/or Elders know about the "personal" struggle being used as reason for hindrance?

2) How about seeking out a mature believer for the same?

3) Why not be proactive in finding out about the privileges and responsibilities of membership?

We know Scripture teaches believers are connected (covenant community) and accountable (to lawful authority- church and civil).

Now having said that, I very much appreciate the presbyterian process of allowing careful evaluation of membership. There's almost a sense there is no pressure because God will deal with the issue (at least that's one of the things I thought when taking about two years before joining).

But, with hindsight, and more understanding- why would anyone want to be without the benefits, responsibility and accountability of a covenant community somewhere, for anything but the shortest possible season?

The longer that is hindered, the more likely, not absolutely in every case, but the more likely, the reason is self.


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## jwithnell (May 20, 2010)

I'm wondering at the underlying assumption that this is only to be handled by church officers? Where is the love within the body that makes us inquire after one another? I sometimes call people who have missed, not because I'm concerned that they're slipping away, but because I know they sorely missed fellowship while home with sick kids.


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## TexanRose (May 20, 2010)

jwithnell said:


> I'm wondering at the underlying assumption that this is only to be handled by church officers? Where is the love within the body that makes us inquire after one another? I sometimes call people who have missed, not because I'm concerned that they're slipping away, but because I know they sorely missed fellowship while home with sick kids.


 
I agree! And there's no reason not to check in with a missing family right away. If a family is missing from one of our services, they will usually get at least one if not several phone calls within a few hours from various people checking in to make sure everything is okay. The assumption is that if they're missing, it's due to illness or car trouble or something, and they might be in need of assistance. 

Granted, we are a small church and many of us are related to one another, so we feel a little more free to call each other. But in my last church, where I wasn't related to anyone and didn't know anyone at first, I would still get a call on Monday from at least one friend wanting to know if I was all right (if I missed, it was due to illness). It was nice to know that I was missed, and I certainly had incentive not to skip church unless I had a really good reason.


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## calgal (May 20, 2010)

Andres said:


> calgal said:
> 
> 
> > Question (thanks Polly for picking up on this): if it takes several months to notice a family missing and to then begin to act upon this knowledge (note this is not for a Coral Ridge sized church), what does that say about the church's attitude towards its membership?  The next question is where have the deacons and elders been, especially if the first time they hear about a crisis is when they show up to chew out the non attending family?
> ...


 
I actually am thinking there are some missing steps prior to the elder visit which is a step towards discipline (whether or not it is applied is another question). But if an elder visit is the first step in church discipline then where have the interim steps been would be a logical question.  And I agree the elders/deacons are not the only ones who would be making these initial contacts. Hope that helps!


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## Herald (May 21, 2010)

KS_Presby said:


> Andres said:
> 
> 
> > Is skipping/missing church for extended periods of time grounds for church discipline? I am talking about members who have taken vows. We all understand that people get sick and need to stay home or go out of town, etc. I am of course not talking about these. Aside from illness or an emergency is there ever any reason to stay out of church repeatedly, such as several months in a row?
> ...



Technically speaking you are describing consequence, not discipline. Discipline may be as gentle as an inquiry as to why they haven't been attending. This type of involvement in a members life is not reserved solely for pastors and elders. Each one of us are our brothers keeper. If we notice a brother is missing we don't need permission from the elders to call or visit. However, more advanced church discipline exists to prevent lack of attendance at worship from leading to more serious matters.


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## Grimmson (May 21, 2010)

Herald said:


> KS_Presby said:
> 
> 
> > Andres said:
> ...


 
I would not classify a gentile inquiry as a form of discipline, but instead a means of clarification for the absence of the individual within the church. Examples of discipline would include warnings of one absence, refused acceptance from the table, loss of ministratial and leadership opportunities in the church, loss of church office, and excommunication, including dropped from the roles of the church. 

I would deal with the issue by trying to address why the person has not been attending, because their could be other factors at playing including other people within the church creating conflict with the individual. If such conflict is the case then I would talk to the one that the offense is with, especially if it is with someone who is in the office of the church and it is truly an issue of concern. 

If the issue is in regards to a personal sin then some level of pastoral counseling and encouragement is needed, particularly if their new in the faith. 

Ultimately it requires some level of wisdom on the part of the pastor on how to address the various circumstances of the believer. 

I would be more concerned, then the individual, over the condition of the church if a member drops off the face of the church for a period of several months. Someone has dropped the ball, and we all know that is way to common today within our individual thinking of our relationship with the church. I feel a sermon coming on this issue so I will refrain and leave my peace at that.


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## Willem van Oranje (May 21, 2010)

calgal said:


> Andres said:
> 
> 
> > calgal said:
> ...


 
Elders should be visiting the members regularly, anyway. It need not be understood as a form of reproof or correction. And these types of negative reinforcement are just one side of discipline, the other side being the regular discipline of the preaching of the word, the fencing of the table, members encouraging and counselling one another, etc. There are all parts of the hedge that God set around his flock which we call "church discipline."


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## Wannabee (May 21, 2010)

There is a proactive and reactive side of discipline. Godly discipline is part of discipleship and can involve anything from teaching to encouragement to correction. I think Scott's point fits discipline well if we understand it this way. The faithful attendance to the preaching of God's Word is discipline. Too often we look at it as only corrective.

Hopefully nobody in our church could miss even one Sunday without someone asking them if everything is okay. We have disciplined one woman for non-attendance though. We have the final step in process.


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