# Rome says Mary can be a bridge between Catholics and Protestants, I say NO!



## dudley (Dec 7, 2014)

I have not been on the Puritan Board for a while because I am busy with several Protestant sites on facebook where I am also an administrator of 4 of them. I placed this post on my own fb page and also Reformation500 and several other Protestant sites on facebook and I wish to share it here also on the Puritan Board. I said......
Monday December 8th Roman Catholics and the Roman Catholic Church celebrate what they call the feast of the Immaculate Conception. Many Catholics as well as many Protestants misunderstand the RC doctrine of The Immaculate Conception. Many think that it is the celebration of the conception of Jesus in the womb of Mary, the earthly Mother of Christ.
That is not at the case. The Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is “The Most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.”
Pope Pius IX, declared this to be a matter of faith and all Roman Catholics are obliged to receive it as a doctrine of their Christian beliefs teaching in his declaration “Ineffabilis Deus -1854” According to the RC doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, Mary was born without the stain of original sin. Both Catholics and Orthodox accept this doctrine, but only the Roman Catholic Church has solemnly defined the teaching, and the title "Immaculate Conception" is generally used only by Roman Catholics. Almost all Protestants reject the idea as having no foundation in Scripture.

As a matter of fact scripture tells us that Mary needed a Savior which again contradicts the RC teaching of the Immaculate Conception. One is only in need of a savior when realizing they are helpless and hopeless; that God in Christ having paid the penalty for the sins of mankind, is the One in Whom we are able to find redemption. [Col.1:12-14]. Mary also said, "My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior" if she admits needing a savior than she was not conceived with an Immaculate Conception as Pius IX proclaimed in 1854.

As a Protestant I reject it on the basis of the above statement and several of many objections I have to Roman Catholicism and its church teachings. Most know I am an ex Roman Catholic and I formally became a Reformed Protestant when I made an affirmation of faith as a Presbyterian and joined the Presbyterian Church in October 2010. I left the Roman Catholic Church because I discovered reading the New Testament scriptures that many teachings of Rome denied the finished and accomplished work of Christ on Calvary.

“When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.” – John 19:30
This is the beginning statement for the Christian. Where other religions begin with “Now get to work!”, the follower of Christ starts off with the finished work of Christ. We are not busy about our Fathers business because we are trying to get God’s approval. We already have God’s approval in Christ, and that reality empowers us toward good works. This is the uniqueness of the Christian faith. God’s finish line is our starting block! That also is the Protestant doctrine of justification by faith alone and not faith and works as Roman Catholicism teaches.

Justification does not make us good; it imparts Christ’s goodness to us.
I now believe that the Protestant doctrine of Justification which is that we are eternally secure in Christ because we have contributed nothing towards our redemption is biblically sound and correct. The beauty and awesomeness of this doctrine is that we are secured and saved by our faith alone. We do good works because we are in Christ but we cannot save ourselves through works as Roman Catholicism teaches.
II Cor. 5: 21
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
God counts the people He has called as righteous by means of their faith and not their works. This does not mean the elect are counted righteous on the basis of their faith. Since faith is itself a gift from God, no one can boast of this as if he has done anything to merit it.
Eph. 2: 8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Christians are counted righteous on the basis of Christ’s righteousness which has been applied to us through the vehicle of faith.
Rom. 3: 21-24 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all] who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

I believe as did the Protestant Reformers of the 16th century who also were at one time Roman Catholic as I was, that it is by the total free gift of grace alone that we receive faith alone in Christ alone who is our salvation and that faith alone and devotion is to no other (Mary included) in our salvation. I know this because as a Protestant I believe it is scripture alone which is our only and final authority and not the pope of Rome; I PROTEST the authority of the pope, the bishop of Rome which is also why I am now a Protestant. As a Protestant I give all glory and honor to almighty God alone for his creation of me and all others and his entire creation and I give that glory and honor to no other including Mary the Mother of Christ.

As a Protestant I give special respect to Mary as the Mother of Christ who is the 2nd person of the Blessed Trinity, the Christian belief which is a mystery of faith that there are Three Persons in One God.

I also reject the teaching of the Roman Catholic church on the Immaculate Conception of Mary because it has no basis in scripture which as I said; I believe is our ONLY and final authority because Scripture alone is the Word of God. I said I do not believe that the pope can declare a belief that is not part of the word of God. The Roman Catholic Church teaches another false doctrine because it has no basis in scripture that the pope can teach infallibly. Papal Infallibility says that the pope when teaching Ex Cathedra from the chair of Peter on matters of faith and morals is as infallible as the word of God and can even add what the scriptures do not teach. I said I do not accept the Roman Catholic teaching of papal infallibility which was not declared doctrine itself until Vatican I in the 1860’s and then further clarified in Vatican II in the 1960’s that the pope when speaking Ex Cathedra from the chair of Peter and in agreement with the bishops of the world that he speaks infallible on matter of faith and morals only. I totally reject this teaching because it too has no basis in Scripture.

Therefore I totally reject the teaching of the Immaculate Conception as well as the Assumption of Mary and other Marian teachings in the Roman Church because they have no basis in scripture.

I also do not accept at all the position by the church of Rome that Mary can be an ecumenical bridge between Protestants and Catholics; because of the basic core of the 5 sola’s of the Protestant Reformation which are based on the scriptures. We cannot accept the teachings of Rome regarding Mary without denying the finished wok of Christ on Calvary, which is as I see it and all Protestants see it the problem with Roman Catholicism; which is why we are PROTESTANT!

Now many Catholics will say their church and Roman Catholics don't really worship the holy mother Mary, but they just honor or highly respect her. So, based on what the official teaching in the Catholic Church do we judge the Catholics worship Mary?

Take the world as an example. If you enjoy wearing branded clothes and shoes, like Prada, Giorgio Amani and Nike, all the time, watch lots of Hollywood movies and play lots of Xbox and Play Station games, you can't deny that you love the world by simply saying "oh, I'm just highly appreciating the world of pop culture.” If the Catholics place Mary's statue at the center of the church, pray to her and praise her, how could they deny worshipping Mary? Seems it's just a game of terminology, isn't it?

Many also, Roman Catholics and Protestants misunderstand the term Mary the Mother of God. Many Protestants say she cannot be the Mother of God because God always was and a human cannot be the mother of the Divine. Roman Catholicism teaches and calls Mary the Mother of God without further clarification to its members; which is also a problem with many Protestants.

Where the Roman Catholic Church errors on this is a commonly misunderstood matter: the Virgin Mary was the Mother of God in the sense that the One she bore was the eternally begotten Second Person of the Blessed, Holy, Undivided Trinity. Christ was God who became a man. Various adoptionists - was Nestorius himself one? if not, he had followers who were; taught at the time that Jesus was a man who became God usually conceived to have happened at His baptism.

The Council of Ephesus and Cyril as its leading figure were concerned to make it clear that the One that Mary bore was deity at His conception and that He did not give up deity by such a conception but added humanity to deity , receiving his humanity, in fact, from Mary His mother. Those who refused to agree with the formulary Theotokos ;arguing for say, Christotokos, "Christbearer," instead of "God-bearer" had an inferior Christology, one that denied that the One the virgin bore was fully God. A bit of historical investigation will make all this clear.

This is not a Roman Catholic doctrine but a truly “catholic doctrine” in the Greek sense of the word catholic meaning universal; like the Trinity. However the problem with Rome is she subsequently promulgated Mariological errors but those errors do not detract from the ancient confession that our Lord was God in the womb of the Virgin Mary, and that He remains forever God and man in one person; which again is why I give special respect to Mary as the woman who gave the 2nd person of the Blessed Trinity his human nature, but he also had His divine nature from His Father in heaven. As a Protestant I believe Jesus is the 2nd person of the Blessed trinity and this He is God, but Mary is not the Mother of the Triune God, she was fully human and was not born without sin and was the Mother of the earthly Jesus who is as I said is God and as such; yes, she is the Mother of Jesus, God in that way but not as the Roman Catholic Church incorrectly teaches.

I also will cite now all the scriptural verses which teach that it is by faith alone we are saved.

If we see that the scriptures exclude works in any form as a means of our salvation, then logically, we are saved by faith alone. Let's take a look at what the Bible says about faith and works. Then, afterwards, we will tackle James' statement about "faith alone".
1. Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
2. Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
3. Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;"
4. Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;"
5. Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
6. Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
7. Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
8. Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
9. Gal. 3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
10. Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
11. Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9Not by works, lest any man should boast."
12. Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

Again, works/Law is contrasted with faith repeatedly; and we are told that we are not justified by works in any way. Therefore, we are made right with God by faith--not by faith and our works, hence, faith alone.

However Roman Catholics are taught and stressed the teaching in the Epistle of James where it says that we are not saved by faith alone. If this is so, then why do the Protestants say we are justified by faith alone and not by works? My answer now to my Roman Catholic family and friends is “Because the Bible teaches that we are justified by faith alone--and not by works. James 2:24, not by faith alone!

The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. However, we cannot stop here without addressing what James says in James 2:24, "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."
There is no contradiction. All you need to do is look at the context. James chapter 2 has 26 verses: Verses 1-7 instruct us not to show favoritism. Verses 8-13 are comments on the Law. Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.

James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith but has no works, "What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14). In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith--a faith that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement, a public confession of the mind, and is not heart-felt. It is empty of life and action. He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is (verses 15-17, words without actions). Then he shows that type of faith isn't any different from the faith of demons (verse 19). Finally, he gives examples of living faith that has words followed by actions. Works follow true faith and demonstrate that faith to our fellow man but not to God. James writes of Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.
In brief, James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, "Faith without works is dead," (James 2:20). But, he is not contradicting the verses above that say salvation/justification is by faith alone.

Also, notice that James actually quotes the same verse that Paul quotes in Rom. 4:3 amongst a host of verses dealing with justification by faith. James 2:23 says, "and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'" If James was trying to teach a contradictory doctrine of faith and works than the other New Testament writers, then he would not have used Abraham as an example. Therefore, we can see that justification is by faith alone, and that James was talking about false faith--not real faith--when he said we are not justified by faith alone.~ Some of My core theology and beliefs as a Christian and why I am now a Presbyterian and a Reformed Protestant and no longer a Roman Catholic. ~ Dudley Davis ~ December 6th 2014 ~ the picture below is the closest to a picture I could find of the earthly Mother of Jesus as seen by Protestants and not the Deified pictures and paintings of Mary as presented in Roman catholic theology and thinking. I see her as a normal human woman, who was also blessed to be the Mother of Jesus which is why I give her special respect as a Protestant but I do not give her any form of adoration or veneration as do Roman Catholics.


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## earl40 (Dec 8, 2014)

Thank you Dudley. I loved how you explained James and I hope that not only our RC friends read this but our fellow protestants who sit next to us and see that our salvation starts with Justification to Our God by faith.


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