# Modesty and its definition



## Romans922 (Nov 12, 2009)

I'm preaching on sexual immorality from Ephesians 5, but I am also applying it in terms of modesty. I was thinking about a definition of encouragement, would this be a good one.

'*Modesty is a delicate yet formidable power that God has given you.*'?

Obviously the power described is not some supernatural power, just a natural power.

I found this in a book on modesty and it is sort of modern evangelicalish.

What do you the women and men think?


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## Berean (Nov 12, 2009)

> I found this in a book on modesty and it is sort of modern *evangelicalish*.



I really love the new words you create, Andrew. You're very good at it.


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## Romans922 (Nov 12, 2009)

Berean said:


> > I found this in a book on modesty and it is sort of modern *evangelicalish*.
> 
> 
> I really love the new words you create, Andrew. You're very good at it.



Thanks, I do it while I preach to. Someone should write down every new word I come up with and make a dictionary. The New St. Andrew's Dictionary. Something to that affect would be marketable.


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## MarieP (Nov 12, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> I'm preaching on sexual immorality from Ephesians 5, but I am also applying it in terms of modesty. I was thinking about a definition of encouragement, would this be a good one.
> 
> '*Modesty is a delicate yet formidable power that God has given you.*'?
> 
> ...




Thanks for teaching on modesty! It's something that really needs to be addressed today.

I don't understand the gist of that definition you quoted. Modesty is not some abstract thing, although I will grant that one person's view of modesty may be different than another's.

Modesty is living in a way that says my body, speech, and actions are owned by Christ, and He has the right to tell me how to conduct myself in every area of life. It is more than wearing the clothes we wear (though that is certainly important.) It is an attitude of the heart at its foundation, and everything else is built on that. Am I dressing to please the Lord, or am I dressing to catch the attention of men? Do I think about whether what I wear might cause my brethren to struggle with lust or jealousy? Do I conduct myself and speak in a way that says, "I'm so important!" or in a way that says, "I'm here to glorify Christ and serve others?"

Once you get that part down, there are quite a few places you can get practical advice. Again, it's more than how you dress, but that's the most, if I can use the word, visible aspect of modesty.

Validating the Gospel in Modesty- Al Martin

Sovereign Grace Ministries Blog - Modesty

Modesty Heart Check- Carolyn Mahaney

Modeling Modesty- Mary Mohler


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## N. Eshelman (Nov 12, 2009)

Modesty is simply not drawing attention to yourself: that includes short skirts, but also 'uniformity' type dressing.


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## Grillsy (Nov 12, 2009)

Uniformity type dressing?


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## Montanablue (Nov 12, 2009)

I do not understand that definition, especially the use of the word "delicate." (I'm not being snarky or sarcastic - I really don't understand it. And I've pondered it for about 5 minutes.)


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## Edward (Nov 12, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> '*Modesty is a delicate yet formidable power that God has given you.*'?



Translate it into plain English and I'll be happy to comment. It comes across as trying to sound erudite without actually saying anything meaningful.


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## Pergamum (Nov 12, 2009)

"There is power, power, wonder working power, in the smocks.."


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## ewenlin (Nov 12, 2009)

Pergamum said:


> "There is power, power, wonder working power, in the smocks.."



Yup. Sounds about right. This should sum it up..


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## Kevin (Nov 12, 2009)

I am with Edward & Kathleen, I don't know what it means.

It sounds kinda-sorta "churchy" but I can't imagine how anyone would apply it...


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## Romans922 (Nov 12, 2009)

I believe the power being talked about in this definition is not about the clothes one wears but about (in this case) the woman behind the clothes.


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## N. Eshelman (Nov 12, 2009)

Grillsy said:


> Uniformity type dressing?



This is what I mean by uniform type dressing (at least an application thereof)







If modesty means not sticking out and avoiding extremes (this is at the root of the word modest)- then this type of dress is immodest because it draws attention to the wearers.


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## Jack K (Nov 13, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> I'm preaching on sexual immorality from Ephesians 5, but I am also applying it in terms of modesty. I was thinking about a definition of encouragement, would this be a good one.
> 
> '*Modesty is a delicate yet formidable power that God has given you.*'?
> 
> ...



How about these from Wendy Shalit (though she's not a Christian) in Christianity Today:

"Modesty prevents us from being vulnerable with the wrong people. It also protects deep, erotic connections between the right people.

"Modesty is not about prudery. Prudery and promiscuity actually have a lot in common: neither the promiscuous person nor the prude can be moved or touched by anything. The modest person can be moved by something and wants to be moved by something in the right circumstances."


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## kvanlaan (Nov 13, 2009)

> Modesty is living in a way that says my body, speech, and actions are owned by Christ, and He has the right to tell me how to conduct myself in every area of life. It is more than wearing the clothes we wear (though that is certainly important.) It is an attitude of the heart at its foundation, and everything else is built on that. Am I dressing to please the Lord, or am I dressing to catch the attention of men? Do I think about whether what I wear might cause my brethren to struggle with lust or jealousy? Do I conduct myself and speak in a way that says, "I'm so important!" or in a way that says, "I'm here to glorify Christ and serve others?"



I like this defintion. I know that the extreme (prairie dresses, etc.) is too much, but when I see a married 40-something year old women in tight tops, short skirts and high-heeled boots at church, I think of what my wife always says: "Just _who_ are they trying to attract in dressing that way?" And who are they trying to glorify?


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## Tripel (Nov 13, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> '*Modesty is a delicate yet formidable power that God has given you.*'?



I agree with those who have expressed confusion over this definition. It's rather vague. 

I really like the definitions Jack provided from_ Christianity Today_. They are specific and get right to the heart of the issue.


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## Andres (Nov 13, 2009)

How about this definition? (its from the dictionary)

Modesty:
1. having or showing a moderate or humble estimate of one's merits, importance, etc.; free from vanity, egotism, boastfulness, or great pretensions. 
2. free from ostentation or showy extravagance: a modest house. 
3. having or showing regard for the decencies of behavior, speech, dress, etc.; decent: a modest neckline on a dress. 
4. limited or moderate in amount, extent, etc.: a modest increase in salary. 

If you are saying modesty comes from God, then can a non-believer ever be modest? Why does it have to be defined in relation to God? I know you are preaching, so your explanation of it is obviously going to relate to God, holy living, etc, but just for definition's sake, why do you need a new definition?


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## Wayne (Nov 13, 2009)

Per the subject index, I don't see that topic covered in _The Morning Exercises at Cripplegate_, aka _Puritan Sermons_. Surprised--usually a go-to standard for something like this.

Have you looked at Baxter's _Christian Directory_?


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## ubermadchen (Nov 13, 2009)

Why is a focus on modesty always on clothes? Immodest clothes or behavior are the result of an immodest heart. True modesty is continually decreasing oneself that Christ may increase.


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## puritanpilgrim (Nov 13, 2009)

> If modesty means not sticking out and avoiding extremes (this is at the root of the word modest)- then this type of dress is immodest because it draws attention to the wearers.



I think you are getting a little post modern with your definition. What christians do will stick out. Try taking your teenage girl out shopping. It's not easy. When my wife and I go out she will say do you like this shirt. I will say sure, if you buy this one too and wear them both at the same time. We don't have to look like Amish, but if that is how a family want to dress, I don't think it would be immodest. Salt will be tasty in bland food and light will be bright when there is darkness. No matter what christians wear, they are likely not to fit in or look like everyone else. Therefore, they are likely to stick out, which does not necessarily make them immodest.


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## Montanablue (Nov 13, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> I believe the power being talked about in this definition is not about the clothes one wears but about (in this case) the woman behind the clothes.



Now I'm even more confused. Are you only preaching to women? Modesty is something commanded to both genders and the passage that you're preaching on doesn't seem directed specifically towards women.


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## Romans922 (Nov 13, 2009)

Montanablue said:


> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> > I believe the power being talked about in this definition is not about the clothes one wears but about (in this case) the woman behind the clothes.
> ...



Sorry, I should've clarified that the book this reference is from is directed towards women. I would not disagree that modesty is for men and women and children!


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## Augusta (Nov 13, 2009)

ubermadchen said:


> Why is a focus on modesty always on clothes? Immodest clothes or behavior are the result of an immodest heart. True modesty is continually decreasing oneself that Christ may increase.



Clothing is the most obvious manifestation of the heart on this matter. Just as out of the abudance of the heart the mouth speaks, similarly your clothing is a direct reflection of the attitude of your heart. 

Even secular people believe this, you have heard the expression: the clothing makes the man? Your clothing says A LOT about you. They can be the front lines of your witness to Christ and his work in your heart.


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## Southern Twang (Nov 13, 2009)

So if I wear blue jeans and a white t-shirt, what is my heart telling people? What about a long sleeve t-shirt versus a short sleeve one?

A lot of wicked people dress modestly, what does that say about their heart? 

I have hard time believing the "what you wear is a condition of your heart" argument. Most of the time, it ain't got nothing to do with your heart. Not that it never does, but the modesty discussion always seems to center around clothing. Like what you wear is the leading indicator of what's in your heart. Me thinks not.


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## Augusta (Nov 13, 2009)

Not necessarily the condition of your heart but definitely an expression of yourself. You can tell certain things about people by how they dress. Not always, of course, there are always exceptions. If you think about it I am sure you will see that you yourself notice things about people all the time based on their clothes. I also think women moreso, because they take more pains with clothes as a general rule. It used to be that guys didn't fuss much about what they wear, but that is changing rapidly.


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## Romans922 (Nov 13, 2009)

Southern Twang said:


> So if I wear blue jeans and a white t-shirt, what is my heart telling people? What about a long sleeve t-shirt versus a short sleeve one?
> 
> A lot of wicked people dress modestly, what does that say about their heart?
> 
> I have hard time believing the "what you wear is a condition of your heart" argument. Most of the time, it ain't got nothing to do with your heart. Not that it never does, but the modesty discussion always seems to center around clothing. Like what you wear is the leading indicator of what's in your heart. Me thinks not.



Dewey, 

If walked around in public with a bikini on or a miniskirt, that would say A LOT about yourself and the state of your heart.


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## Tripel (Nov 13, 2009)

Southern Twang said:


> I have hard time believing the "what you wear is a condition of your heart" argument. Most of the time, it ain't got nothing to do with your heart. Not that it never does, but the modesty discussion always seems to center around clothing. Like what you wear is the leading indicator of what's in your heart. Me thinks not.



Certainly, what we wear is not the leading indicator of the heart, but we can still say quite a lot about our hearts through what we wear. Our American culture is obsessed with appearance, and it affects all of us to some degree or another. When we choose clothes to wear, we are choosing how we would like to appear, or how we would like for people to think of us. 
Some people dress so that they blend in. Some dress so that they stand out. Some dress to suggest a certain lifestyle or status. Some dress to garner attention.

While clothing doesn't always reveal the condition of one's heart, they quite often reveal what a person pursues.


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## Southern Twang (Nov 13, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> Southern Twang said:
> 
> 
> > So if I wear blue jeans and a white t-shirt, what is my heart telling people? What about a long sleeve t-shirt versus a short sleeve one?
> ...



Note I didn't say never or it wasn't possible.


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## Montanablue (Nov 13, 2009)

Romans922 said:


> Southern Twang said:
> 
> 
> > So if I wear blue jeans and a white t-shirt, what is my heart telling people? What about a long sleeve t-shirt versus a short sleeve one?
> ...



That is an extreme example. Of course, dressing in an extreme way may something about the state of your heart. I don't think that was the point of the post.


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## ubermadchen (Nov 13, 2009)

Augusta said:


> Not necessarily the condition of your heart but definitely an expression of yourself. You can tell certain things about people by how they dress. Not always, of course, there are always exceptions. If you think about it I am sure you will see that you yourself notice things about people all the time based on their clothes. I also think women moreso, because they take more pains with clothes as a general rule. It used to be that guys didn't fuss much about what they wear, but that is changing rapidly.



But the modesty issue isn't just about clothes. Modesty is an attitude of the heart not an article of clothing. The problem with just focusing on clothes is the notion that men can leave themselves off the hook. Few men dress immodestly but that doesn't mean men are not modest in their behavior or thoughts. I think I dress modestly but that doesn't mean that I still don't struggle with a modest heart. We all, men and women, have an obligation to make less of oneself in order that Christ may be made much of. Focus on the heart issue and a change in clothing is sure to follow soon after.


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## Archlute (Nov 13, 2009)

Montanablue said:


> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> > I believe the power being talked about in this definition is not about the clothes one wears but about (in this case) the woman behind the clothes.
> ...



It is significant that the apostles only explicit admonitions regarding modest dress pinpoint the women of the church. This strikes our egalitarian culture as sexist, but so does restricting women from ministerial office.

This is not to say that men are exempted, but if we believe in the full divine authority and intention of the Holy Spirit speaking in Scripture in training us up for the Christian life, that emphasis should not be seen as odd, accidental, or a modern embarrassment.


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## Andres (Nov 13, 2009)

sorry but I beg to differ on the whole, "what we wear says alot about our heart" argument. I select my clothes on the most comfortable options available. I am 100% serious when I say this: If possible I would wear shorts and a t-shirt everyday, everywhere. Obviously I don't do this becuase I have to wear a uniform for work and because my wife wants me to dress nicer when we go out. Other than that, t-shirt and shorts everyday. when its cold out, sweat pants. Now, unless you guys want to argue that my heart is comfortable, I don't see what these clothes have to do with my heart.


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## ubermadchen (Nov 13, 2009)

Archlute said:


> Montanablue said:
> 
> 
> > Romans922 said:
> ...



Again, yes modesty in dress but the the Bible addresses everyone when discussing modesty in general.


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## Archlute (Nov 13, 2009)

Andres said:


> sorry but I beg to differ on the whole, "what we wear says alot about our heart" argument. I select my clothes on the most comfortable options available. I am 100% serious when I say this: If possible I would wear shorts and a t-shirt everyday, everywhere. Obviously I don't do this becuase I have to wear a uniform for work and because my wife wants me to dress nicer when we go out. Other than that, t-shirt and shorts everyday. when its cold out, sweat pants. Now, unless you guys want to argue that my heart is comfortable, I don't see what these clothes have to do with my heart.



It has a lot to do with our heart, because Christ called us not to serve ourselves by pursuing what is most comfortable to ourselves, but to pursue love for the brethren and Christ's glorification among the gentiles. 

It is arguable that it would show more love toward others to dress our Spirit-indwelt temples (that display both the image of God in general, as well as the image of Christ for believers) in a manner that boosts its dignity, rather than show the world your hairy toes sticking out from your Birkenstocks during the communion service. I know it would be showing _me_ some love if a few folk did that in past churches where I have worshiped!


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## Tripel (Nov 13, 2009)

Andres said:


> I select my clothes on the most comfortable options available....Now, unless you guys want to argue that my heart is comfortable, I don't see what these clothes have to do with my heart.



I think what you have described is admirable, and perhaps it IS actually telling of your heart. You seem to be unconcerned with how other people view you...based solely on appearance. That is good.

Unfortunately, I'm probably on the opposite end of the spectrum.


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## Augusta (Nov 13, 2009)

Andres said:


> sorry but I beg to differ on the whole, "what we wear says alot about our heart" argument. I select my clothes on the most comfortable options available. I am 100% serious when I say this: If possible I would wear shorts and a t-shirt everyday, everywhere. Obviously I don't do this becuase I have to wear a uniform for work and because my wife wants me to dress nicer when we go out. Other than that, t-shirt and shorts everyday. when its cold out, sweat pants. Now, unless you guys want to argue that my heart is comfortable, I don't see what these clothes have to do with my heart.



See, you are a guy so of course you think of comfort etc. Women do not. Do you think high heels are comfortable?  Hairdos where you cannot move your head or you mess it up? It is very different for many women. I have been on both extremes personally because of changes in thinking when I was converted.


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## Idelette (Nov 13, 2009)

MarieP said:


> Modesty is living in a way that says my body, speech, and actions are owned by Christ, and He has the right to tell me how to conduct myself in every area of life. It is more than wearing the clothes we wear (though that is certainly important.) It is an attitude of the heart at its foundation, and everything else is built on that. Am I dressing to please the Lord, or am I dressing to catch the attention of men? Do I think about whether what I wear might cause my brethren to struggle with lust or jealousy? Do I conduct myself and speak in a way that says, "I'm so important!" or in a way that says, "I'm here to glorify Christ and serve others?"



Thanks for sharing this Marie! I couldn't agree more...ultimately I think the way we act, dress, talk...everything about us (both male and female) rests on _WHOM _we are trying to glorify! Ultimately it is either Self or Christ! If we are truly trying to be modest...we would strive to honor God in our speech, in our actions, including the very clothing we select to wear as these things all represent who we are!


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## Augusta (Nov 13, 2009)

ubermadchen said:


> Augusta said:
> 
> 
> > Not necessarily the condition of your heart but definitely an expression of yourself. You can tell certain things about people by how they dress. Not always, of course, there are always exceptions. If you think about it I am sure you will see that you yourself notice things about people all the time based on their clothes. I also think women moreso, because they take more pains with clothes as a general rule. It used to be that guys didn't fuss much about what they wear, but that is changing rapidly.
> ...



I definitely agree that it is also a heart issue. I have to deal with myself on this even wearing skirts. I wear skirts that go to the calf mostly. Even those though I have to check my heart sometimes because there are some gored skirts that still show off the midsection. I have had to weigh how much of my womanly figure that God gave me is alright to accentuate even with skirts. My rule is am I trying to show off my figure with this skirt etc. As a woman it is sometimes hard because sometimes I just really like the skirt but other times it is a fleshly reason. I also don't want to look like Little House on the Prairie.


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## Archlute (Nov 13, 2009)

ubermadchen said:


> Archlute said:
> 
> 
> > Montanablue said:
> ...



You just missed what I said. It may address everyone in some way, but the apostles addressed women in particular over men on the subject of modesty. If you believe that there is a real reason why the Holy Spirit wrote the Scriptures the way that He wrote them, that there is meaning behind the emphases and intention that we should learn from that, then you need to accept that there is a reason for women being addressed on at least four occasions regarding modesty in dress in the epistle to the church at Corinth, the Pastoral epistles, and finally in the first epistle of Peter. 

Of course this makes people throw out charges of misogyny, but there are admonitions given to men that are for men in particular, and nobody usually gripes about those. Women are not being mistreated nor oppressed just because they are singled out on certain issues in the Scriptures. 

The hermeneutical method endoresed by several posters on this board would have us eliminate sex-specific instruction, and is the kind of discomfort with sex oriented commands that leads to translations such as the TNIV, which would substitute "parents" for "fathers" in various passages that are clearly addressing the male, covenant head of the home in the context of discipline. I realize that our culture has had a breakdown of the family, but that is no reason to rewrite Scripture to cover up our discomfort with these passages.


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## Augusta (Nov 13, 2009)

Archlute said:


> Andres said:
> 
> 
> > sorry but I beg to differ on the whole, "what we wear says alot about our heart" argument. I select my clothes on the most comfortable options available. I am 100% serious when I say this: If possible I would wear shorts and a t-shirt everyday, everywhere. Obviously I don't do this becuase I have to wear a uniform for work and because my wife wants me to dress nicer when we go out. Other than that, t-shirt and shorts everyday. when its cold out, sweat pants. Now, unless you guys want to argue that my heart is comfortable, I don't see what these clothes have to do with my heart.
> ...



The dangers of living in Oregon.


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## Archlute (Nov 13, 2009)

Augusta said:


> Archlute said:
> 
> 
> > Andres said:
> ...



Haha, tell me about it.


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## a mere housewife (Nov 13, 2009)

Doesn't the Scriptural injunction to women relate modesty with 'shamefacedness and sobriety' and good works, which seem to have equally to do with our speech and actions?

It is also puzzling to me that the direct emphasis on 'modest clothing' in Scripture does not actually seem to be on hemline, neckline -- on the _sexual _aspect of modesty (though I don't mean to deny that a modest person will have care in this regard) -- but on not 'dressing up' for worship, as if worship were about what _we_ were wearing and how we did our hair. Puzzling because often those who put the most emphasis on hemline and neckline modesty also put the most emphasis on dressing up for church? (& I wonder if Scripture puts the emphasis on these other aspects of modesty because those are the ones out of which the sexual aspect necessarily flows, rather than _vice versa_ -- we have to hammer the sexual aspect so much because we have lost the really biblical emphasis, in hammering the sexual aspect so much?)

Andrew I think modesty does have primarily to do with understanding that we are not our own (and so not dressing or acting to glorify, please, or call attention to ourselves), and I agree with Jack K that the idea of modesty as a protection of dignity, value, and proper feeling in all our relations is important. I also think it is as difficult to learn as any other aspect of dying to self -- a lifelong process.

Also a question re: Andres' dictionary question: don't all true virtues have primarily to do with pleasing God, and the man-ward element flows from there? If so, then the dictionary definition for modesty isn't enough for God's people? It isn't enough before God, to have a sort 'autonomous' modesty that is concerned with our fellow man, but not for His sake and His glory?


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## Andres (Nov 13, 2009)

Augusta said:


> Andres said:
> 
> 
> > sorry but I beg to differ on the whole, "what we wear says alot about our heart" argument. I select my clothes on the most comfortable options available. I am 100% serious when I say this: If possible I would wear shorts and a t-shirt everyday, everywhere. Obviously I don't do this becuase I have to wear a uniform for work and because my wife wants me to dress nicer when we go out. Other than that, t-shirt and shorts everyday. when its cold out, sweat pants. Now, unless you guys want to argue that my heart is comfortable, I don't see what these clothes have to do with my heart.
> ...



okay then if the highheels and crazy hairdo's are so uncomfortable then why wear them? Seriously, answer this for me why an adult woman, given the choice, would wear something she really doesn't want to wear?


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## Augusta (Nov 13, 2009)

Andres said:


> Augusta said:
> 
> 
> > Andres said:
> ...



You come to the heart of the issue. She wears them because she wants attention, adoration, second looks. Wants to be considered stylish etc. It is all self.

I really like what Heidi has said here because it is an aspect that is important and lost in our times because the sensual is so prevelant in our society. If we did have this sobriety and shamefaceness it would change us fundamentally such that our dress would follow in that change.

You cannot though also throw out the rule. We don't throw out the whole law as unnecessary because sanctification will take care of it. We uphold the law. So we still have to talk about hemlines etc.


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## a mere housewife (Nov 13, 2009)

I just want to go on record as saying that I'm not against high heels or pretty hairdos. But they should certainly not be our focus in coming to worship the Lord. I don't plan to argue that position  My dear grandma, who is now in heaven after many years of selfless service to the church, wore high heels and jewelry every Sunday out of consideration to the society she was born and raised in. I agree that we need to set guidelines for ourselves and help others to consider theirs, but not necessarily use our personal convictions to judge everyone else in the absence of clear Scriptural support.


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## kvanlaan (Nov 13, 2009)

I think the reason that this comes up as a 'women thing' is because that aspect is so very public. No man is going to dress in 5 inch heels and a skin-tight suit. But the same cannot be said for many women in a congregation and this manifestation of a lack of modesty must be addressed. And, in whichever way it manifests itself for men should likewise be taken up by the elders.

Do remember that the reason for the focus on women and the gnat-straining, Draconian rules bandied about 'for women' is because that is the most visible problem. I know of an FRC church in a nearby town where the consistory had to actually codify the length of hemline, etc. on brides' wedding dresses *because* no-one was making an attempt at modesty, they were running as fast as they could in the other direction. 

But these modesty rules are a reaction to the problem in almost every case, instead of doing the required 'preventative maintenance', and most often it is a case of women keeping up with the fashion of the day. They're no more sinful in this respect than the men, but the manifestation of this particular issue is just much more visible due to their sex.


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