# Modesty Pertaining to the Christian Lady



## "William The Baptist" (Apr 19, 2012)

I have a question about a comment someone posted... and wonder what your responses would be, since many of you are pastors or elders, or wise older Christians who the Lord has blessed with much understanding!

I posted this on my FB status earlier today.

"Very serious question that has puzzled me for YEARS: Why is that professing believers, specifically females, seem to have no regard for modesty, and plaster pictures with their shirts/dresses so low, skirts so high (and I'm not talking knee-length, I'm talking SHORT-like mini), and skin tight clothes, and yet want to put in their "about me" that they live for Christ and love him-that He is their all in all? Is there no thought to being blameless and and lights in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation? About not letting your adornment be outward beauty, but inward which is pleasing to God?

I don't think everyone has to dress like me, or have similar tastes in fashion, but whatever you may choose to wear should not show off your body sensually.

Please, feedback and dialog is welcome. Go."

An old college friend posted her two cents on it. 2 years ago (before I was reformed) we had a similar conversation where she waved the "Christian Liberty" flag with incredible vigor. Anything I do or say concerning modesty is immediately touted as "homeschool mom" because of the fact that she KNOWS I was homeschooled for part of my schooling. Funny thing is, it wasn't until I went to Texas A&M I found I loved dresses and skirts for every day attire, not just Sundays (and I have a preference of closer to knee-length skirts, though I do wear some longer ones on occasion.). I have no problem with any lady wearing pants every day if they want to, because that can be more modest than a mini skirt!-in fact I happen to like basketball shorts. She chooses to ignore that. -_-

Here is her comment:

"a few things I would say to this.
A. your definition of "slutty" clothing is purely based on your own opinion. If I show my face in Saudi Arabia I'm a whore. If I go out to eat in a string bikini in California that is socially acceptable. It's arbitrary.
B. I agree with being above reproach and not conforming, but I also agree with keeping in mind the culture of which I live in and their best interests as far as relating to them. knee length skirts? really? an unbeliever in my mind would see that and go "why would I be interested in Christianity if I have to start dressing like a homeschool mom?" no offense, but that's what it looks like. If I were to go to a Middle Eastern country I would dress accordingly as not to offend or IMPRESS MY PERSONAL IDEAS on them.
C. you are never responsible for someone else's sin. The whole modesty argument is generally in regards to "not causing anyone stumble" which is both valid and biblical, but relates to other sins BESIDES modesty, and there is a problem with this extreme modesty mindset. it makes you: 1)exceedingly judgmental 2) it sends guys the message that their lust problem is our fault, and therefore some feel "attacked" by girls wearing what they feel is immodest clothing. That is their issue in reality, not the girls.
D. you come off as ridiculously judgmental and though I'm not personally offended, nor am I self conscious in my own clothing choices, it stresses me out to know that christian girls would read this and feel guilty and non christians would read this and be turned off.
E. the female body is BEAUTIFUL and God designed it that way. of course it is good to dress respectably honor God with your body, but do not subscribe to the thinking that your design is bad or wrong or a stumbling block simply because it exists!
F. I think if you want to lead or inspire girls to dress modestly you should ask them to look carefully at their own hearts and their reason behind dressing the way that they do. NOT so that you can say "if you wear this and this I wonder if you're even saved," but so you can encourage others toward good deeds and to examine their hearts."

Thoughts? I have not written a response to her comment yet because I am about to leave to run errands  Just thought I would drop a line in the PB for some thoughts on the matter.


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## Scott1 (Apr 19, 2012)

This is a much needed discipline and virtue in our generation, modesty.

Biblically, it's a broad quality but there are specific references to attire in Scripture and some addressed particularly to women as well a general principles that apply.

There is much opinion, even cultural context (and that can be even in a job setting, using 'culture' broadly) that makes some part of this preference, not principle.

Like many things in the Christian life, separating principle from preference is, in one sense, impossible, yet we are called to do it by (faith). That means it is possible.

Dressing modestly cannot be looked it in isolation of responsibility to others. It's not just about us or our opinion that reigns in all things related to attire (even mannerisms). It's about loving our neighbor and the body being the temple of the Holy Spirit.

It ought be beyond debate for believers that women ought not dress in a way to provoke men, and that ought be a consideration of "loving one's neighbor." In many contexts, there ought not be an intention to distract with provocative dress, nor to call undue attention to one's self. (We need to qualify this with "ordinarily" because there are special circumstances and occasions).

We live in a culture that would glorify self, exploit and provoke lust for profit, and could care less about the consequences to real human beings. And Christians get caught up in this as well, being deceived by in it.

Modesty is an attractive virtue in itself, especially for believers seeking to walk by God's will.


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## Fly Caster (Apr 19, 2012)

Just let me say that your commitment to modesty is admirable. You have a rare virtue, even with the realm of professing Christianity.

Most troubling in your friend's reply is her point C. Here she is terribly wrong, and here is where I would start to attempt to convince her of her error.


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## Tripel (Apr 19, 2012)

Respond in grace -- thank her for her comments. As much as you may disagree, it's helpful to know what the average female thinks about modesty. 

I could go on and on about each of her points, but I'll just pick a few. First regarding point A, is "socially acceptable" the standard by which we should abide? I do agree that modesty looks different in various settings, but surely there is more to it. It all boils down to this: *Do Christians have a different standard than the rest of the world?* We have to answer that question before we can start drawing lines about what type of clothing is modest and what is not.

Regarding point C, she is wrong. If a woman dresses very scantily and a man lusts after her, did she cause him to sin? No. He sinned of his own choice. But did she (knowingly or unknowingly) tempt him? Yes. That said, it's critical to point out that people can lust and sin regardless of what others are wearing. It's a heart issue. ***

Regarding point F, she is right. If a woman is wearing tight-fitting clothes and displaying ample cleavage, it would be interesting to hear why she chooses to dress this way. It may be along the lines of "because it makes me feel good" or "I want to enjoy my body while I have it". Whatever the case, if she is honest, it will be quite telling about where her heart is.

*** But I want to go back to the issue of tempting others, particularly men. A major gripe of mine is that modesty talks with young women often center around causing men to stumble. I think that is a poor approach. If you're having to have a modesty talk, it's likely because there are modesty issues. Females already know full well how guys are tempted. Telling an immodest young woman that guys are lusting after her is probably not going to dissuade her, because let's be honest, your average "Christian" teenager or 20-something enjoys the thought that men are physically "turned on" by her. I'd argue it's only a small minority of young Christian women who are sincerely concerned about tempting men's thoughts, and those women are likely already quite modest.
I think a much better approach is to point out to Christian women what it says about themselves when they are immodest. The way people dress is a very powerful form of nonverbal communication. If she is indeed Christian, she will not be encouraged by how her immodesty is interpreted. Guys may not think she is a literal slut, but they will think she is "easy". And most importantly, they will think she is quite taken with herself, and that's a major turn-off. Guys may be physically attracted to her, but they aren't interested in the person. Guys do not want to be with women who are self-absorbed.


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## Scott1 (Apr 19, 2012)

> Westminster Larger Catechism
> 
> Q. 138. What are the duties required in the seventh commandment?
> 
> A. The duties required in the seventh commandment are, chastity in body, mind, affections,[767] words,[768] and behavior;[769] and the preservation of it in ourselves and others;[770] watchfulness over the eyes and all the senses;[771] temperance,[772] keeping of chaste company,[773] modesty in apparel;[774] marriage by those that have not the gift of continency,[775] conjugal love,[776] and cohabitation;[777] diligent labor in our callings;[778] shunning all occasions of uncleanness, and resisting temptations thereunto.[779]


.


> Scripture Proofs
> 
> [767] 1 Thessalonians 4:4. That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour. Job 31:1. I made a covenant with mine eyes; why then should I think upon a maid? 1 Corinthians 7:34. There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
> 
> ...


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## Fly Caster (Apr 19, 2012)

Scott1 said:


> > 1 Timothy 2:9
> > In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
> 
> 
> .



Scott, that should be sufficient for any true child of God regarding this issue. Sadly, the number of Christian women (as well as men) who claim that this use of "modesty" has nothing to do with covering the body saddens and befuddles me. I don't know if this is the majority view in American Christianity today, but it is the more vocal one.


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## py3ak (Apr 19, 2012)

A. It is socially and circumstantially conditioned, but it is not entirely arbitrary. When someone _wants_ to be "sexy" there are certain themes they tend to hit. This is her fundamental mistake on the whole topic - assuming that because standards can vary somewhat from culture to culture and circumstance to circumstance that therefore it's only a question of personal preference.
B. This is rather absurd, because the same thing can be said about any requirement. "You mean I have to __________? No way!" While we don't wish to create unnecessary barriers, people can take any requirement of the law of God that conflicts with their personal preference and decide it's not worth it.
C. She has a good point here - women should not be blamed for the failings of men. It's been done since Adam, and it doesn't fly. But the fact that a woman can't be blamed for a man's fault, doesn't mean she can't be blamed for her own. Adam was wrong to blame Eve, but Eve was still wrong.
D. Your FB status could probably have been worded more tenderly; but certainly the issue of modesty has been a long-standing problem. John Newton wrote about how the fashion in which some dressed made one quite uncertain of where it was safe to direct one's eyes.
E. Yes, but application of this fact still needs to be made with discretion and considering the situation.
F. This is also a good point, and leads to the observation that modesty is about far more than being unprovocative. It is about gracefully occupying the place and station that God has assigned to you, about not being an attention hound, about letting your adornment be primarily in good works.


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## Pilgrim Standard (Apr 19, 2012)

My wife is so consumed in putting on the Righteousness of Christ she does not have time to bother with putting on Immodesty. I think that is so beautiful and attractive, not only does my heart swoon for her, but she melts my soul in making sure to consistantly point me to Christ with her actions.

Some who are immodest in dress seem to be ignorant. Others seem to be attempting to attract the world, men with improper desires. In the case of the latter, I can not see a joyfull and blessed future.

I wonder why your friend desires to defend such things as string bikinies?


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## Romans922 (Apr 19, 2012)

Just remember the heart is the issue. External modesty begins with internal modesty. If there is no heart change (if she is not a child of God) no argument will sway her. And even if it does, it only merely shows an external change. Pray for her heart to change.

As an aside, I believe we should be much more modest ourselves men. I find it hypocritical to say it is okay that a boy (or man) can go swimming without a shirt on. But a woman has to dress modestly. The girl doesn't though, she can wear whatever until she is a certain age. Insulting to our Lord. When we teach our children, when do we start this practice? When we teach our daughters do we wait until they are 12 or when they hit puberty? We can't! We must start at the earliest of ages. Same with young boys, at the earliest of ages, teaching them about a humble and modest heart. And how we ought to dress according to God's Word.


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## J. Dean (Apr 19, 2012)

Yeah.. I hate to say it, but I've seen women at churches who would make prostitutes blush.

What is "socially acceptable" is only to be considered within Scriptural boundaries. A great many items today that are "socially acceptable" are clear violations of Scripture. 

As a man I'm distracted enough outside of the church; I don't need to be distracted at church by inappropriate female dress.


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## FenderPriest (Apr 19, 2012)

This is a really helpful and practical resource for ladies trying to think through what would and wouldn't be modest. Not law, but helpful: Modesty Heart Check - Outline (free) by Carolyn Mahaney.


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## Jack K (Apr 19, 2012)

Well, I too am in favor of modesty. I'd view your facebook status and agree with you. And I'm glad you're being modest.

But it sounds like you're going to have a hard time preaching modesty to your friends because you don't personally seem to struggle much with it. In their eyes, at least, you're the sort of person who's seldom tempted to be immodest. You already dress differently from them. So when you bring up modesty, it will automatically feel to them like you're (1) judging others on an issue where you're off the hook and (2) urging them to do something you find easy to do but they may find hard to do. So despite your comments being right, there's little chance they'll be received well.

If you want to effectively engage your friends about their immodesty, it will help for you to examine your own life to see where you're committing similar sin—and admit it to them. This does NOT mean you should go out and be immodest so that you have something to confess. But all of us sin in every way to some degree. We all struggle with sexual sin and with wanting-attention sin. You can help your friends by letting them see that you struggle too, you need to repent as much as they do, and you don't see yourself as better than them—and _that's_ why you're so serious about repentance.

If you can manage to do that, it will quiet your friend's arguments far more effectively than anything else.


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## Elizabeth (Apr 19, 2012)

Leah,
I think an attitude of prayer for those whom you deem immodest might be the best road to take, unless you are directly asked for your opinion on a particular outfit by a particular person. Otherwise, you simply come off as judgmental, rightly or wrongly!
Live in peace and quietness as much as possible, be a good example of gentle Christian womanhood, in all its permutations. Pray for your immodest friends, but leave the chastising to their hubby/father/pastor, etc.
As a young woman. I actually did no small amount of injury to other women through my prideful and haughty spirit. Why didn't they see the things I saw, live like I lived? Well, they simply weren't at the point in the walk with Jesus yet. 
Trust God, pray, walk humbly and graciously. God will see to these things. Fear not!


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## Scott1 (Apr 19, 2012)

> Titus 2
> 
> 3The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
> 
> ...


.


> Calvin's Commentary
> ....
> 
> 4. That they may teach young women temperance That they may be more
> ...


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## Romans922 (Apr 19, 2012)

Since we are quoting Scripture, 



> Galatians 6:1-2
> Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.


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## Elizabeth (Apr 19, 2012)

Titus 2

3The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

I take my old(er) woman status most seriously.


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## Rufus (Apr 19, 2012)

As far as the Middle Eastern burqa comment goes; modesty can be relative to a culture, so there is no need to go THAT far, secondly one over dressing is also immodest. Immodesty brings attention to yourself, there is attention being improperly driven if wearing too little, or wearing too much.


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## JoannaV (Apr 19, 2012)

Getting dressed is such a chore. Modern Western clothes are so annoying. And now it's even more complicated because I have to figure out what works for nursing.

OK that was kind of off-topic. Your friend's thinking seems a little confused. You've received some good responses so I won't try to comment right now.


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## Pilgrim Standard (Apr 19, 2012)

Rufus said:


> As far as the Middle Eastern burqa comment goes; modesty can be relative to a culture, so there is no need to go THAT far


I just see the lady allowing culture to set the standard of modesty. Perhaps bringing up the challenge of what should be the rule of modesty, society who has so little to say about it, or the Scripture, which makes no attempt to be quiet on the subject. Then, the challenge to subject oneself to the one that sets the true standard.


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## a mere housewife (Apr 19, 2012)

Joanna, I often look longingly at styles from India etc, with the cute punjabi pants and feminine, high waisted tunics and think how becoming and warm and cool and practical and in all points so like a butterfly it all is. I wonder if it is also better for nursing? I remember reading of how taken Lady Mary Wortley Montagu was with the styles in Turkey, finding them so much more practical and becoming than English styles at the time. She was able to introduce vaccination but sadly not the lovely pants and tunics. Maybe you could have a go . 

Leah, when I first came to know the Lord, I naturally looked to the girls of my own age who seemed to have a meek and contented spirit, and who could be pretty and feminine besides, and tried to imitate them. I am still imitating the ladies in my church who model meekness and quietness; and attractiveness to their husbands. I grew up hearing about modesty and it left me not only terribly confused (a woman is apparently not to let the public know she is a biped, in some circles) but also very unwilling to adopt the policies of what did not seem at all gentle or attractive in presentation. Of course I do not think you would fall into the latter camp in any way, but for myself I now think the best way I can impact the modesty of others (not being wise enough to address these issues, or even yet to have them all sorted out) is to try to develop a meek and quiet spirit and imitate those who do -- I am still so far from such personal goals, as I have almost daily cause to lament. In some cases, I find that means paying more attention to dress than I might have naturally: once when first married I blundered into a semi formal occasion as the only lady in baggy jeans and oversized sweatshirt. I was well covered but mortified, and felt that another dear friend who had dressed with more care, in something somewhat less covering, was much more modestly attired. In some cases I'm afraid that my avoidance of things unaesthetically appealing to me makes me less modest than I should be -- though certainly not my desire, and even where I am wearing a long skirt etc -- when others are wearing more practical garments. I have also come to think that no matter how gracious one tries to be, facebook is not the best medium in which to convince a friend of error. I think we gain the most truly attentive audience in our friendships by a life lived out in front of one another.

Elizabeth's advice is very wise: more things enter into young women giving this sort of advice than the possibility of being mis-perceived about our intent (which Leah, I am sure is of the best in your case). It is easier all around, and less crushing for us ladies to hear this from a loving mother in the faith (this sort of advice is always best from a mother, I think). We knew the most beautiful and charming and sincerely sweet Christian when we first married, and still think of her with so much delight, who was clueless in this area -- not having a Christian mother or father. Perhaps I may have even been able to avoid crushing her if I said something (though I'm not sure) and I thought that for her own protection's sake at length somebody might say something; but I felt it would make things awkward between her and my husband, who was also her friend. Would she think I was jealous (she was so awfully pretty)? Would she worry about what we had said to one another, and if he were noticing/judging/stumbling over such things about her? Such issues are less problematic from a woman whose marriage has already weathered so much more than one's own issues in dress, and whose husband is also looked to as a sort of father in the faith, I think.

Elizabeth, a friend who will tell you an honest opinion about the modesty of a garment is so invaluable.


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## Philip (Apr 19, 2012)

Heidi, I'd like to thank you for pointing out that modesty has a lot to do with context. I have found myself (as a man) in many a context where what I was wearing stood out too much (though there are certain contexts where standing out isn't a big deal). Social context makes a great deal of difference and often I don't wear what I want or what I wish were the norm so as not to draw attention to myself.


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## christiana (Apr 19, 2012)

Modesty is the topic of our ladies spring brunch at my church and it is such a need for the young especially but for all to desire to dress in a way pleasing to our Lord. So many misinterpret our 'liberty' but it is freedom now to worship and please our God that we didnt have before. If ladies are dressing with an intent to appeal provocative to men I would think that to be sin.


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## Pergamum (Apr 19, 2012)

I love Indian clothing, too. Very feminine even while being modest.

Side note: Burquas are not modest; they are oppressive.


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## Reformed Irish Man (Apr 19, 2012)

I found the modesty that my fiancée displayed was one of the first things that attracted me to her. I'm encouraged to hear of your stand for modesty. No matter what biblical truth we stand for we will always be challenged and even mocked for it.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Apr 19, 2012)

Leah, I'm so glad you brought this up. You see, I live in Babylon (the great City of New York), and it seems it is perfectly natural for Babylonian women to display their physical beauty as much as they can – modesty is not even a consideration. But it vexes my righteous soul, and I daily have to pray preemptively for the Lord to protect me – not only against the beauty of women but against my own eyes and heart – when I go out and about in the city. I desire with all my heart to have a pure heart, true to my God and to my wife, and I have to stay very close to my Savior constantly.

When I was pastoring a church on a mission field I used to address this from the pulpit, timidly at first (fearing to offend close friends) but more forcefully and pointedly as time went on.

We all have different callings. Some are called to speak prophetically – directly to the hearts of others with the word and Spirit of God, while others have a differing approach. I like your approach. I recall my wife telling me, after she was first converted she and a more mature sister in Christ were getting dressed to go to church, and her friend looked at her short skirt and exclaimed, "You're not going to church in *that*, are you!?" They then had a little talk about modesty, and wife was changed from that day on.

Women who see their beauty as residing in their bodies and looks are desiring to attract men who see the same, and unless the Lord intervenes they will get what they desire, to their grief. A godly man will not be attracted to a body-flaunting woman, knowing that down the line this trait may be so deep it will cause _him_ grief in the years to come, as well as seeing that the true womanly beauty is suppressed by the flesh.

Genuine conversion and the clean and healthy fear of the LORD in a soul – male or female – are rare things nowadays, and I daresay will be rarer as time goes on. Many say they are Christian but their hearts and lives say otherwise. I would only caution you in this, be winsome in your seeking to instruct your professing friends – along with your mild reproof and personal example, seek to bring the Person and presence of Jesus into the discussion, He who is possessed of infinite dignity and majesty, and tender care for His own – that their motive to take on modesty would be to please Him who loves a meek and quiet and godly spirit, which in His sight is of great price.

Keep up the good work, young lady!


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## CuriousNdenver (Apr 20, 2012)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Women who see their beauty as residing in their bodies and looks are desiring to attract men who see the same, and unless the Lord intervenes they will get what they desire, to their grief. A godly man will not be attracted to a body-flaunting woman, knowing that down the line this trait may be so deep it will cause him grief in the years to come, as well as seeing that the true womanly beauty is suppressed by the flesh.



Such wise words! Thank you for sharing your heart on this issue.

Leah, I have often wondered the same things you asked in your original post. You have already gotten some wonderful feedback on modesty among those who profess Christ, so I will share some of what my pastor has shared on this issue, as he has addressed it from the pulpit.

Like others have mentioned, he reminds us that whatever we do in response to those who may be dressing immodestly needs to be done prayerfully, in love. He suggests that to lay down the law on them (those dressing immodestly) is not going to bring about a change of heart, but a form of outward obedience, rather than submission to the Holy Spirit. He has also reminded us that not all of the people in the pews at church are believers (we have a large church), and that some may be brand new believers. He has suggested that some of these gals truly may not realize that their dress is provocative, especially if they have just come from the ranks of the unsaved, where as your friend suggested in A - they are simply conforming to our cultural norm. He has reminded us that the spiritual walk and process of sanctification is just that - a process. We are all in different places in our walk with the Lord as we grow in our faith.

His suggestion was that in love, other women in the body gently take the gal aside and prayerfully share with her about modesty, referencing the verses already quoted here in Titus 2 and I Timothy 2 which address modesty and older women teaching the younger women. 

I can say in my own experience that I have come home with some things from the store that seemed just fine in the dressing room, but when I put them on at home, they seemed inappropriate, so it is entirely possible that some of these gals just don't realize that certain clothing is creating unnecessary temptation for men. It seems also to speak to where some of the gals are in their walk with the Lord. If we are in the word and in constant fellowship with Him, it seems that the more we let His word dwell in us richly (Col. 3:16), the more we are in-tune with how to live our daily lives as unto Him. The opposite would also be true: those who are not growing in their faith and feeding on the Word are easy prey and easily led astray.


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## reformedminister (Apr 20, 2012)

I wish more women who profess Christ had a deeper desire to follow Biblical principles in regarding apparel and outward adornment. It takes a real woman to be willing to stand out from the crowd in order to set a godly example and not follow the norm or the standards set by a heathen society. It is in this consecration and discipline that true beauty shines.


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## FCC (Apr 20, 2012)

Keep up your stance Leah. I think you will find (as my wife did) that by merely dressing modestly you will bring about reactions. My wife doesn't even have to say anything, it is merely her choice of modest dress that starts the comments! Make a strong stand for modesty in your own life, your actions and witness for Christ will first convict those around you and then pray, for it is the Lord who must change their hearts. When the topic arises, speak and hold forth the good word of life! Study the topic intensely so you have an answer for those who do want to talk about it. This is very important as well. 

Pastor Jeff Pollard has some excellent sermons on sermon audio concerning modesty and it's impact. 

We believe that dress is not a matter for private intrepretation, but that Scripture does speak to it. It is a direct representation of our being clothed with the righteousness of Christ! Oh that I would be clothed more and more with His glorious righteousness! 

May the Lord bless your faithful stand Leah!


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## Romans922 (Apr 20, 2012)

ASIDE: any good books outside of Scripture on modesty (heart and dress)?


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## John Bunyan (Apr 20, 2012)

There's a big difference between a barely clothed amerindian and a american woman in a string bikini. In the first case, nakedness (or almost) is the common way to dress, and people expose their bodies naturally, with no intention (some indigenous groups do cover their genitals, by the way) towards others. In the case of the american, however, string-bikinis are not the pattern (which usually includes covering a lot more), but rather an exceptional way of clothing with a specific objective: to attract others. She may say that's not the objective, but only brief examinations of string-bikini ads show that's what they're for. I mean really, why would anyone in a cold place (and, for me, every place in the US is cold; no need to talk about some countries in Europe) dress with such small non-clothes? It is an obviously sensual vestment. If a woman was seem in her underwear she would be uncomfortable, and underwears normally cover way more than bikinis (string-bikinis barely cover anything). Isn't it obvious, then, that string bikinis are not commonplace, irrelevant, customary and neutral clothes?


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## jogri17 (Apr 20, 2012)

As a 24 year old guy I make it simply a matter of practice to not hang out with girls, even christian friends, if they dress ''inmodestly'' in my judgment. I respect them too much as neighbours in humanity or sister in Christ to take the chance of lusting after them. Yes, there is a subjective element to this, but so what? The Bible teaches we are to love others just as much as we love our selves. We are called to serve. Their is nuance here of course. A girl going to a dance is permitted to show a little more skin than usual, the situation calls for it. And certainly Christian men should never say that women should not try to hand their God given natural bodies. Au Contraire, Scripture wants women to dress like women and men to dress like men so that God is glorified both in manhood and womanhood. The point is if that young lady was in Saudia Arabia they would expect her to dress modestly within their cultural standards, just as in the USA or Canada we expect woman to dress modestly for our standards. We do not permit nudity all over the place, in fact it is regulated by government agencies (local). So all we are talking about is degrees within secular cultures (because Saudia Arabia does not hold the same standard as Iran or Afghanistan or Morocco, etc.). This is where Christian liberty comes into play here. We are to not dress in any way that could cause our brother or sister to stumble. 

And let's be honest here. Muscular guys (I'm not one gladly! Proud pasty white and skinny in a geeky sorta way) with developed abbs walking around shirtless in churches or at church outdoor events is a major struggle for young ladies (even married ones whose husbands are less hunky). Young guys need a good kick in the butt on this one. 

my two cents.


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## Romans922 (Apr 20, 2012)

jogri17 said:


> Young guys need a good kick in the butt on this one.



I disagree, all children, men, and women need to heed Scripture. It doesn't matter if one is a particular age or has a 'better quality' of body than another. All must dress modest based out of a humble and modest heart.


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## Miss Marple (Apr 20, 2012)

I appreciate FCC's point that the older women, who are to teach the younger women, can set standards wordlessly. A gracious and dignified older woman will indeed be imitated by younger women. That is how we women work. We are frequently, consciously or unconsciously, noticing what the other women around us wear, and doing a lot of imitating.

Of course if you are in a position of direct influence (a mother, a grandmother, an older sister), you can directly say to an immodestly dressed child or grandchild or sister - "that is not appropriate dress." Or as I might say to a daughter, "You are not going out wearing that thing!"


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## Philip (Apr 20, 2012)

The other thing I (as a young man and Christian brother) would encourage young ladies to do is this: dress well according to the occasion. There are ways to dress modestly without being frumpy or prudish. I watch old films a good deal and the stuff you see women wearing in those is a) generally modest b) generally pretty. Dress classic (by the way, this goes for men too).


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## Andres (Apr 20, 2012)

jogri17 said:


> Muscular guys with developed abbs walking around shirtless in churches...



What churches are you attending?!


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## Peairtach (Apr 20, 2012)

*Joseph*


> And let's be honest here. Muscular guys (I'm not one gladly! Proud pasty white and skinny in a geeky sorta way) with developed abbs walking around shirtless in churches or at church outdoor events is a major struggle for young ladies (even married ones whose husbands are less hunky). Young guys need a good kick in the butt on this one.





I hope they start working on their "spiritual abbs" in this church or "church" of yours.


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## kappazei (Apr 20, 2012)

John Bunyan said:


> There's a big difference between a barely clothed amerindian and a american woman in a string bikini. In the first case, nakedness (or almost) is the common way to dress, and people expose their bodies naturally, with no intention (some indigenous groups do cover their genitals, by the way) towards others. In the case of the american, however, string-bikinis are not the pattern (which usually includes covering a lot more), but rather an exceptional way of clothing with a specific objective: to attract others. She may say that's not the objective, but only brief examinations of string-bikini ads show that's what they're for. I mean really, why would anyone in a cold place (and, for me, every place in the US is cold; no need to talk about some countries in Europe) dress with such small non-clothes? It is an obviously sensual vestment. If a woman was seem in her underwear she would be uncomfortable, and underwears normally cover way more than bikinis (string-bikinis barely cover anything). Isn't it obvious, then, that string bikinis are not commonplace, irrelevant, customary and neutral clothes?



Hahaha! Because this is a Reformed site, I misread American/Amreindian for Arminian! I was thinking, 'What difference does it make if a Christian woman is a Calvinist or Arminian in this discussion?'


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## kvanlaan (Apr 21, 2012)

Do you not also find that being attired in modest dress reveals a more genteel side of men? We go to a homeschool conference every April (anyone going to the OCHEC conference here?) and there are a number of long-skirted, head-covered Mennonite women who sell 'Rod and Staff' curriculum. It is interesting to watch how men treat them: men are much more concerned, in general, with their manners because what is before them is obviously a lady and not a tightly-clad nymphette. Also, they demand, by their dress and general demeanor, a certain treatment that is so lacking today. My wife (who loves long skirts and generally modest clothes, though is no Pharisee about it) once walked into a Tim Hortons with a baggy-panted miscreant and then stood slightly to the side of the main door and looked at him. He looked back. She raised her eyebrows in question. He said 'what?' She merely commented: 'I'm a lady, you're supposed to open the door for me.' He flushed red and jumped to it. My point is this: When women, not only through dress, but general behaviour, demeanor, etc. show a desire to be interchangeable with men (not equal, mind you, that is a given) then they become so. The Mennonite women at OCHEC are humble and modest in attire and are treated as such, and receive a level of treatment from most men that disappeared along with top hats and smocked frocks. Demanding to be treated like a man may gain you certain privileges (or 'rights'), but it also removes a good deal of femininity, and one should not be shocked when treated like 'one of the guys' if that is the attitude you exude.


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## Pilgrim (Apr 21, 2012)

Romans922 said:


> ASIDE: any good books outside of Scripture on modesty (heart and dress)?



There is Jeff Pollard's book but I haven't read it and thus can't give an informed opinion of it. I seem to recall one or more books on the subject by a woman author as well but I can't remember a title or author at the moment. Nancy Leigh DeMoss may have some material on this issue.


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## Manuel (Apr 21, 2012)

Leah, I encourage you to continue serving the Lord and cultivating this rare virtue of modesty. I suggest that you listen to one of Nancy Leigh DeMoss' series on modesty, they are very good and very informative.

Modesty

My wife just listened to a series that she preached in April 2010 (they are in the link above, you have to look for them in chronological order), and it changed her heart completely on this matter. Praise the Lord.


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## a mere housewife (Apr 22, 2012)

I think it is interesting that when Leah (whose spirit in asking is exemplary, and I am so grateful for it) asked for advice about this, the 'big sisters' and the mothers in Christ here (to whom Scripture advises us to look specifically in this matter) have generally advised that it would be better to go about this sort of battle another way, even where we must address it 'out loud' and directly; while those encouraging this as a good approach that ought to be furthered have come from men. Could it be that women understand something vital to *feminine* modesty, not just about what we are upposed to put off and on outwardly, but what we are to put off and on inwardly -- and the true impact of that inward aspect on other women -- that has something to do with this difference?

A wonderful and wise friend from this board posted this on modesty some time ago on her blog. I think it sums up the rational behind the feminine responses to this question nicely -- Ruby posted that in part I think for my sake, for I had been asking some questions about it in my own confusion. I appreciated her summary immensely at the time, and still do: Mumma's Place: The Heart of the Matter

Leah I want to clarify in case it should be at all unclear that I think your desire to be modest and help others to think more about being modest is entirely admirable, as is your question about how to go about approaching such discussions. Please know my words are meant only as a sincere reply to a sincere question, and that out of my own still growing and imperfect understanding of these things, and not at all as a criticism of a lovely sister and friend in the Lord. I have similar questions and am still trying to understand so many aspects of this issue. It certainly says something about your own modest spirit and love in the OP that this thread has developed in a much more helpful and less vituperative vein than many of these discussions can be! I hope if you see this today that you have a very blessed Lord's Day.


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## lynnie (Apr 22, 2012)

Two good links: Pyromaniacs: Sister... show mercy! (Repost #4) 

a snip: _Parting thought. Darlene Johnson pointed me to a statement by Arthur Pink, which makes everything I've just said look awfully mild. But there's no denying that Pink has a point. I'll close with it:

Again, if lustful looking be so grievous a sin, then those who dress and expose themselves with desires to be looked at and lusted after-as Jezebel, who painted her face, tired her head, and looked out of the window (2 Kings 9:30)-are not less, but even more guilty. In this matter it is only too often the case that men sin, but women tempt them so to do. How great, then, must be the guilt of the great majority of the modern misses who deliberately seek to arouse the sexual passions of our young men? And how much greater still is the guilt of most of their mothers for allowing them to become lascivious temptresses?
Now, note, Pink and I speak to different audiences. I speak to those whom I charitably assume are inadvertently dressing in an unhelpful manner. Pink speaks to those whose intent is to allure. Between the two of us, I can pray we've provided food for thought, prayer, reconsideration, and needed change.

One last thought: it is a mistake to think I exclusively have church-attire in mind. That is lifted as a particularly egregious example of what-are-you-thinking? In what I say, I have in mind any place where both sexes are present._

Modesty


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## greenbaggins (Apr 22, 2012)

It is often amazing to me how easily offended people are about what they wear. Our culture now identifies people by their clothes. A person is known by their clothes. Therefore, if you attack their clothes, then you have attacked them. Fashion is certainly one of the undersung idolatries in our age. We need to teach our people not to create an idol out of fashion. In this thread, I have resonated with Kevin's and Heidi's points the most: even though we should not create an idol out of fashion, we are still saying SOMETHING about ourselves (and how we view ourselves) by what we wear. We are telling people how we want to be treated. Anyone knows that going into a high-end jewelry store, for instance, dressed in punk clothes is not likely to procure excellent service, while a person dressed smartly will be treated very differently. Heidi's point is also important: dressing in a way that calls attention to yourself (whether over- or under-dressing) is immodest. I have noticed that modelling (pardon the word!) modesty has a huge effect on other women. My wife's modesty in public, and the way she dresses our children (especially in church) has a definite effect over time. She doesn't generally bring it up herself unless someone asks her about it. Let the pastor do it in sermons on the relevant texts, and then model modesty yourself.


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## FCC (Apr 23, 2012)

kvanlaan said:


> Do you not also find that being attired in modest dress reveals a more genteel side of men? We go to a homeschool conference every April (anyone going to the OCHEC conference here?) and there are a number of long-skirted, head-covered Mennonite women who sell 'Rod and Staff' curriculum. It is interesting to watch how men treat them: men are much more concerned, in general, with their manners because what is before them is obviously a lady and not a tightly-clad nymphette. Also, they demand, by their dress and general demeanor, a certain treatment that is so lacking today.



My wife has indeed experienced this exact sort of behavior when out in public. It seems that the dress she wears affects others in ways that one would never suspect. They change their language, they suddenly develop manly manners (such as holding a door open, saying "Please" and "thank you") it is amazing to me to watch! It is a great way to witness for the truth without having to speak a word.


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## jwright82 (Apr 23, 2012)

I was reading an article in Christianity Today (yeah I know but I like to see how far they have fallen over the years) about a poll done concerning sexual promiscuity among Christians at colleges. If I remember correctly, it was a couple of years ago; they saw in their poll that Christians at Christian colleges were just as promiscuous as secular colleges. 
When asked why the “Christian” women reported that they did it because they felt that they either couldn’t compete for the males’ attention or they thought that they couldn’t keep their current boyfriend. 

I am not condoning it or commenting on their spiritual status. I am only saying that this whole issue of modesty is a complex issue dealing with the massive cultural struggles of our time fighting for our attention. Like the article I mentioned this issue of modesty in dress may be driven more by a deeper psychological/cultural level. There is no doubt that some women like “turning” guys on but some (or most?) are more driven on a more primal level. We are made in the image of God but we are biological as well. This is no excuse for immodest dress, only trying to point out that the answer to this problem might be deeper than just admonishing people. Our culture is also fighting to form our opinions about what is appropriate dress (Cosmo, Victoria Secret, etc.). Women are under incredible stress in our culture to be different from what they were created to be. 

In a book I read a few years back from a marriage counselor he listed the top 10 reasons why men and women will commit adultery. Not surprisingly the number one reason that a man will commit adultery is lack of sex (or none at all) from his wife. But the number one reason why women will commit adultery is lack of affection. He is only affectionate when he wants sex. Women are primed differently than men are. But our culture says that women are just as sexual as men, so go out and be “sexy” in your dressing habits behaviors. Dresses aren’t pretty anymore they are sexy. 

But this isn’t the case and women are pressured into dressing certain ways that causes them to be less than they are created to be. My answer to all this is simple, boys need to man up. Headship starts in courtship, us men should create an environment in which it is at least indirectly understood that the women in this relationship will not be pressured to be “sexual” in any way or immodest. And that being modest is more attractive in the long run. This takes thoughtful and pray full action on both parts but psychology will take over. This is the only time that you will probably see me plug Darwin but he is right here, survival of the fittest. If dressing modestly gets the boys, than that is what most women will do.


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## Scott1 (Apr 23, 2012)

> Romans 12:2
> 
> 2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.


.


> 1 John 2:15-16
> Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
> 
> For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.


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## kvanlaan (Apr 23, 2012)

Scott, that's just it - we are often so conformed to this world that we do not even see it anymore. We are so many iterations from where we should be that even a slight nudge back to the right path is seen as radical and over the top.


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## Robert Truelove (Apr 26, 2012)

Brian Dempsey (Associate Pastor at Christ Reformed Church, Lawrenceville GA) preached a great message on this entitled Adorning the Gospel with Biblical Modesty. It's on sermonaudio.com...

Adorning the Gospel with Biblical Modesty - SermonAudio.com


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## Scottish Lass (Apr 26, 2012)

I second Lynnie's recommendation of Dan Phillips' post: Pyromaniacs: Sister... show mercy! (Repost #4)


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## FCC (Apr 26, 2012)

Romans 12 is a powerful address on the change a Christian should undergo when he or she is brought into the family of God! What a blessing that our wonderful Father effects such a massive work upon us unworthy Christians. To be "transformed" or metabmorphasized into a brand new creature, with new thoughts, new affections, a whole new outlook on life! That is what we should be striving to attain and praying that God would continue to work upon us that we would "put on the Lord Jesus Christ" and be clothed with His nature!


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## Jackie Kaulitz (Apr 26, 2012)

Great subject and one God has been convicting a number of women in our church about lately, including myself. I first became aware of how I dressed when going swimming when my college bible study group of young men and women. When two girls came out in bikinis, my eyes few open in shock. I felt so bad for my Christian guy friends. If I as a girl couldn't help but notice them, what were the guys thinking? And when the guys then took off their shirts, I admit I struggled with this. I wish guys would NOT take off their shirts. Society has programmed them that this is acceptable but it is not helping us girls any. Sadly, guys take this for granted.

Still, I noticed the heavier I got, the less modest I dressed. Partly because it is near impossible to find a sleeveless shirt that fit right without making you look like grandma, and partly because I felt bad about myself and wanted to feel "pretty". Yes, I know.  Well, let me share with you the amazing way God spoke to our church one day? Last month, a group of 5 reformed Christian girls from Maui, Hawaii showed up at our church. They were extremely naturally beautiful and guess what? All covered up in oversized sweaters! And no one made them dress like this. I couldn't help but notice how attractive and wholesome and "Christian" they looked and automatically became more conscious about my clothing. I thought "If I were a wholesome Christian guy, I would be looking at these girls before many of the less modest girls in the church". Within a week of their visit, two other women in my church mentioned the same thing - we all went back to our wardrobes to make some changes. Now there is still one woman who completely hangs out of her dresses everytime. I pray for her and how that by our examples of dressing modestly, she will catch on. If not, one of us will talk to her with love because we shared in our own stuggle with modesty. Honestly, half of the issue is that we women don't realize the affect we have on others. That or we like the attention. And if the later, we should listen to CJ Mahaney's sermon on Modesty. Ignore his yelling at the end.  It showed that more than tempting guys, modesty is disrespectful to God and is stealing glory and attention from God. I was really convicted on this one. Making men stumble is very bad but stealing glory for God is just unliveable!


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## jwright82 (May 2, 2012)

I was thinking about this from a climate point of view. I live in Florida and in the summertime with 100% humidity most women dress in more revealing clothing and it has nothing to do with trying turn anyone on. I don’t think there is anything wrong per se with dressing this way but it an interesting perspective to consider this from. How much discomfort should women endure not to be a stumbling block? I mean at some point she has be given a break due to weather or some other factor.


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## TexanRose (May 2, 2012)

jwright82 said:


> I was thinking about this from a climate point of view. I live in Florida and in the summertime with 100% humidity most women dress in more revealing clothing and it has nothing to do with trying turn anyone on. I don’t think there is anything wrong per se with dressing this way but it an interesting perspective to consider this from. How much discomfort should women endure not to be a stumbling block? I mean at some point she has be given a break due to weather or some other factor.



I think it's only in the US and other "Westernized" countries that we think skimpy clothing is cooler. In other cultures, both men and women wear clothing that covers more skin, to protect themselves from the sun's rays. Think of women in the Sahara, the Middle East, India, etc. If the clothing is lightweight and loose to allow for airflow, it will be quite comfortable in hot weather.


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## Scott1 (May 2, 2012)

jwright82 said:


> I was thinking about this from a climate point of view. I live in Florida and in the summertime with 100% humidity most women dress in more revealing clothing and it has nothing to do with trying turn anyone on. I don’t think there is anything wrong per se with dressing this way but it an interesting perspective to consider this from. How much discomfort should women endure not to be a stumbling block? I mean at some point she has be given a break due to weather or some other factor.


This identifies a key issue, the duty to one's neighbor. There is also the duty to God.

It's not enough to view this from the standpoint of self only. Not in the Kingdom of God.

It's not merely enough to assume innocent intentions by the one provoking or even rationalizing their own comfort or convenience. Remember, provocation can come by carelessness as well as specific intent to provoke.

We could say for example that someone did not have specific intent to harm someone when they are driving while legally intoxicated. And we can either subjectively or objectively define the limit of intoxication, etc.

It's about doing what is right toward God, and towards one neighbor.

And there are Scriptural principles that speak to that.

And, specifically, to the way women dress.

This cannot be usefully and biblically discerned in isolation from these many considerations.

Not by the Christian woman.

Not by anyone.


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## jwright82 (May 2, 2012)

Scott1 said:


> jwright82 said:
> 
> 
> > I was thinking about this from a climate point of view. I live in Florida and in the summertime with 100% humidity most women dress in more revealing clothing and it has nothing to do with trying turn anyone on. I don’t think there is anything wrong per se with dressing this way but it an interesting perspective to consider this from. How much discomfort should women endure not to be a stumbling block? I mean at some point she has be given a break due to weather or some other factor.
> ...



I get that. I didn’t endorse dressing inappropriately for some “good” reason. I only pointed out that climate may play a part in this question. Should Christian women wear clothes that are non western just to avoid being a stumbling block? That would draw unnecessary attention and look “funny”. Should they wear winter clothes to avoid being a stumbling block? That is just a health hazard in Florida during the summer. That is the question I am raising can it be done in more modest way? I don’t see why not. 

I mean if the only consideration is to not to be a stumbling block to anyone than women just shouldn’t leave the house because someone somewhere will be tempted, it is unavoidable. I may not be the most attractive guy around but I’m sure in the course of the day some girl was tempted over me, is staying in the house all day the only answer to that? Or can we say that women need to do their best considering many factors, weather being one of them. But acknowledge that they cannot perfectly avoid being a stumbling block and say it is not their fault?


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## JoannaV (May 3, 2012)

It's hot and humid and I'm currently wearing THREE layers. I think I may invest in a new wardrobe sometime in the next few years.

I read the book someone recommended earlier. _Christian Modesty and the Public Undressing of America_. In it he says something like we should apply a stricter standard to ourselves and a looser one to others. I think _most of the time_ our thinking/talking on this issue should be as it relates to us, not to other people.
We should concern ourselves with making sure we ourselves conform to Biblical standards. Men, guard your eyes and teach your wife/daughters/sisters about modesty.


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## Scott1 (May 3, 2012)

jwright82 said:


> I mean if the only consideration is to not to be a stumbling block



You are correct to say it's not the ONLY consideration,
but it is a consideration- the good of one's neighbor.

The unregenerate are not naturally inclined to think that way.

Believers, by God's grace, and for His Honor and His Glory,
are.


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## a mere housewife (May 3, 2012)

JoannaV said:


> I read the book someone recommended earlier. Christian Modesty and the Public Undressing of America. In it he says something like we should apply a stricter standard to ourselves and a looser one to others. I think most of the time our thinking/talking on this issue should be as it relates to us, not to other people.
> We should concern ourselves with making sure we ourselves conform to Biblical standards. Men, guard your eyes and teach your wife/daughters/sisters about modesty.



Much fluishness here, but amidst it all, I have spirits to say 'Yea, verily, yea' -- and that one of the things I love about Ruben is that I do not hear him criticising other women all the time for the way they dress. He will tell me if something I wear is over the line (though more often I fear my clothing choices are a source of amusement, even angst -- I have this little jacket with bells on the sleeves . . . ) It does several things for me: I am not insecure in his love; I am not involved in focusing in a critical way on other women, instead of on my own heart; and I know that he takes responsibility for himself before the Lord, regardless of what others may be wearing. All of which are pretty wonderful in a man who hangs around the house every day, asking for endless supplies of cooked food and clean laundry. I know all of us are different and function differently in relationships, but I wonder if that is another thing men might be able to do for their wives and daughters (and sons) in this area.


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