# Question Regarding Circumcision and Genesis 17



## SkillsMasters (Mar 31, 2022)

When reading _A Simple Overview of Covenant Theology _by C. Matthew McMahon, one part reads this:

(This was in response to the question of why God would tell Abraham to circumcised his eight-year-old infant. )


> Professor Jacobs: Very good. Well said. Now I want to dwell a moment on Abraham. When Abraham circumcised Isaac, did Abraham believe God’s promise was upon his chosen seed?





> Thomas: I have no reason to believe otherwise. Now that I look at the text, I have to say “yes.”





> Professor Jacobs: I’m glad. You would be right in saying “yes.” Was Isaac in covenant with God?





> Thomas: Again, I would have to say “yes.” The sign and symbol of the covenant was placed upon him, and Abraham, no doubt whatsoever, believed God’s blessing was upon his son by God’s direct promise to bless him and his seed forever.





> Professor Jacobs: We know that the “seed” is spiritual; it refers to Christ, ultimately. But practically speaking there are lots of children to come down the line of “covenant” before the ultimate blessing of Christ is seen. Seth, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc., to name a few. Circumcision is a spiritual act in response to the promise of God that is given externally. It is given on the basis of the faith of the parent. The parent believes God’s promise and raises their children in the fear and admonition of the Lord based on those promises.



And later:


> Professor Jacobs: Did he [Isaac] circumcise them [Jacob and Esau]?





> Thomas: Of course. He wanted God’s promises to bless them, so he circumcised them both.





> Professor Jacobs: Like Abraham did to Isaac at 8 days old, Isaac also circumcised his children. Did Isaac believe they were in the Abrahamic administration of the covenant with God?





> Thomas: I cannot see how he could not have thought that. He would have trusted God’s promise to be a God to him and his children, so he would have given them the covenant sign.



Is Genesis 17 referring to Abraham's physical offspring? Otherwise, I don't understand the part where it says, "He would have trusted God’s promise to be a God to him and his children, so he would have given them the covenant sign." Wasn't God's promise that He would be a God to Abraham and Abraham's offspring (spiritual offspring)? How can this be applied to physical offspring of believers then? If I am understanding the argument correctly, is it saying that God's promise to Abraham to be a God to him and his offspring therefore we circumcise our children because we trust in God's promise to be a God to our children? That leads me to my question, wasn't that promise towards Abraham specifically and to his *spiritual* offspring (all believers)?

_Note: Not disagreeing, just asking a question_


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## aaronsk (Apr 1, 2022)

I think some of this is actually clarified by the section between your quotes. 
Remember the administration (external aspect of the covenant) is physical and includes both believers and unbelievers. Covenant breakers receive curse. - see p.47. 

Also read p.48 (the section between your selections) again starting at "_Professor Jacobs: Well, then, men are obliged to listen to the Word of God, not necessarily to wonder about the decrees of God._" through pg.49 "_What a tragic fate for Ishmael as a covenant breaker!_". I think this might help - if you have not re-read it already.

Btw we are both non-denom but theologically Presbyterian!

My hardcopy of this work is borrowed out atm so I am using the pdf for pg. number references - not sure if they will directly match up with whatever version you have.


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## SkillsMasters (Apr 1, 2022)

aaronsk said:


> I think some of this is actually clarified by the section between your quotes.
> Remember the administration (external aspect of the covenant) is physical and includes both believers and unbelievers. Covenant breakers receive curse. - see p.47.
> 
> Also read p.48 (the section between your selections) again starting at "_Professor Jacobs: Well, then, men are obliged to listen to the Word of God, not necessarily to wonder about the decrees of God._" through pg.49 "_What a tragic fate for Ishmael as a covenant breaker!_". I think this might help - if you have not re-read it already.
> ...


I'm confused about Genesis 17:7, that seems to be the "promise" referring to in the text when it says:


> He would have trusted God’s promise to be a God to him and his children


Does Genesis 17:7 refer only to the spiritual offspring of Abraham (i.e. all believers) or does it refer to all those who are in the "external aspect" of the covenant (i.e. all believers plus all those in the visible church)


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## aaronsk (Apr 1, 2022)

There are folks far more qualified than myself to answer - I know Dr. McMahon is on the board and maybe he will chime in but I will give it a go.

I believe it would be both (“external aspect”). Those who keep the covenant will realize the blessings (physical and spiritual seed) and those who break the covenant will receive the curse (physical but not spiritual seed). Since the covenant is an administrative of the covenant of redemption it has both spiritual and physical aspects. That being said we are not privy to who outside of a few cases where God makes this known in scripture.

The sign of the covenant in Gen 17 is circumcison and that sign is applied to physical seed even if that seed is not among those who will keep the covenant. We see this with Ishmael, Abraham still circumcised him even though he would turn out to be “wicked”. This evidences the external administration of the covenant. Remember these administrations of the covenant being worked out in time also ultimately point to Christ.

So with the administrations that of the Covenant of Grace there is the internal aspect of the CoR that only includes the elect and the external aspect that would include both groups elect/unelect. And we know ultimately the spiritual seed points to Christ.

Hopefully Im not totally missing the heart of your question.


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## brandonadams (Apr 6, 2022)

Jamie, you will find different answers amongst Presbyterians regarding what the promise is and who it is to. Some will say it is a conditional promise "If you repent and believe you will be saved" and is thus made to all the physical offspring as a gospel offer. Others say it is an unconditional promise of salvation to the elect spiritual seed, which raises the questions you are asking as to how it relates to all physical offspring.

You may find this essay from E. Calvin Beisner helpful http://ecalvinbeisner.com/freearticles/EvangelizingOurChildren.pdf

See also Kline's comments on this question

Reactions: Like 1


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