# Assurance, A Second Work? Only For Some Believers?



## David Shedlock (Sep 10, 2014)

http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj5c.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T090WUROjHM
Faith and Assurance by Joel Beeke | Reformed Theology Articles at Ligonier.org

I sure would like some clarity on the subject of assurance. Joel Beeke seems to be arguing in circles. First, he says in the video that having "full and absolute" assurance is like a sailboat going out in full gale that I am "free from the guilt of sin", have "great joy in my relationship with the Triune God" and a "wonderful liberation within, knowing that I belong to the family of God" He says you can know you have assurance by its fruits: close life of fellowship with God, childlike obedience, trusting and thirsting after God...anticipating revival...longing for the second advent of Christ....Christ-centered life". It is the "cream of faith" "something special". It gives us great peace with God".

A quote by Puritan Thomas Brooks:



> Now though this full assurance is earnestly desired,
> and highly prized, and the want of it much
> lamented, and the enjoyment of it much endeavored
> after by all saints, yet it is only obtained by a few.
> ...


All of this leaves me bewildered and with many questions. If assurance is a separate experience from faith, how is that different than Pentecostalism. the Methodist doctrine of Second Blessing, and Carnal Christian Theory? Even the Jehovah's Witnesses believe that there are two levels of Christians, those that make up the 144.000 are a different level.

1. If assurance is obtained by self-examination, and yet results in a more mature Christian, how is this not arguing in circles?

2. Is it that if "I walk closely with Christ, I live a life of obedience" therefore I can be assured I'm saved and it will make me "walk with closely Christ and I will live a life of obedience"


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## Reformed Covenanter (Sep 10, 2014)

David Shedlock said:


> If assurance is a separate experience from faith, how is that different than Pentecostalism. the Methodist doctrine of Second Blessing, and Carnal Christian Theory?



Much in every way! But before getting into details, perhaps you should ask yourself another question: can someone be a true Christian and yet doubt that they are saved? If you answer in the affirmative then surely you have admitted that assurance is, at least in some sense, distinct from saving faith.


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## David Shedlock (Sep 10, 2014)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> David Shedlock said:
> 
> 
> > If assurance is a separate experience from faith, how is that different than Pentecostalism. the Methodist doctrine of Second Blessing, and Carnal Christian Theory?
> ...



I don't deny that a Christian can have doubts arising from a besetting sin, great trials or suffering. 

But Beeke and Brooks seem to teach that it is a distinct second experience, perhaps only open to some Christians. The circular reasoning as to "this experience" is what I question. If I obtain assurance by seeing certain fruit, and yet assurance causes certain fruit, that defines arguing in circles.


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## VictorBravo (Sep 10, 2014)

Faith is an instrument. By faith alone we are saved. Faith is also a gift.

A homely analogy:

I remember when I was young, an old-timer was watching me use a pick on hard ground. He said, "let the tool do the work."

I thought hard on that and asked him, "how can the tool do the work--it just sits there on its own?"

He said, "let the tool do the work, but you have to work the tool."

Faith justifies, indeed. But we are creatures made to do things to the glory of God. That means we must apply the gifts given to us. When I first started walking, I had no assurance of staying upright. Through practice, assurance in walking became a given. I didn't have to look for it. I simply walk. Practice led to that assurance, but the fact that I was given by God innate abilities to balance and move my feet was required.

So it can be with spiritual assurance. If we proclaim faith, it is time to get to the work God has set before us. We fail at every turn, ask him for forgiveness, praise him for his grace, and keep on going. 

I think, in sum, the more you focus and chase after assurance, the less likely you will experience it. Chase after God instead. Do the simple tasks he sets out before us. Read Scripture. Meditate on his Word. Pray without ceasing. Be diligent and true in your worldly affairs. At some point you may notice that you are assured because you have truly and deeply tasted the things of God in your daily life.


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## David Shedlock (Sep 10, 2014)

I generally agree with you, Mr. Bottomley. That is not how many see it. They tell us we have a duty to seek assurance. I do wonder, though, if what is missing is the fact that assurance is closely tied with faith. Most people, who experience salvation, who have had their sins forgiven, know it. I don't understand, especially the Brooks view, that it is a rare thing. To try and divide the trust (reliance) at conversion from one's experience as a believer causes doubt, not assuages it. 

It even leads to some dishonesty, I fear. Who (on the board, for example), wants to admit that they doubt if they are saved. My inclination to a doubter is to ask them questions about their faith, not their sanctification. True believers, would likely confess their sinfulness, not their righteousness. The hypocrite would be more likely to begin to list his or her improvements. I have been often told that I should use the example of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector as an example. But that reads to me, the exact opposite. The Pharisee examined himself and found all kinds of reasons he was right with God. The tax collector saw only his sin and cried out for mercy.


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## MW (Sep 10, 2014)

Just to clarify, assurance in the reformed system is not a "second work." It grows up out of faith in conjunction with the graces of the Spirit. As with all graces of the Spirit, it must be stirred up, increased, and strengthened. See the Larger Catechism on sanctification, and compare with its teaching on assurance.


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## David Shedlock (Sep 10, 2014)

Is Brooks view consistent with the reformed view, that is a rare mercy, too good for all but God's closest friends?


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## MW (Sep 10, 2014)

David Shedlock said:


> Is Brooks view consistent with the reformed view, that is a rare mercy, too good for all but God's closest friends?



I take him to be speaking of "full" assurance.


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## David Shedlock (Sep 10, 2014)

What's "full" assurance? That is why I think it is a "second work". Do you have it? 

I am confident God has saved me, not because I am looking at me, but because I am looking at Christ.


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## MW (Sep 10, 2014)

David Shedlock said:


> What's "full" assurance? That is why I think it is a "second work". Do you have it?



It is the fullest assurance a believer can have in this life amidst temptations and sins. A person that grows to a full man does not require a second work of creation.



David Shedlock said:


> I am confident God has saved me, not because I am looking at me, but because I am looking at Christ.



Does "saved" include "sanctified?" Or are you confining this confidence to the forensic aspects of salvation only?


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## JimmyH (Sep 10, 2014)

armourbearer said:


> Just to clarify, assurance in the reformed system is not a "second work." It grows up out of faith in conjunction with the graces of the Spirit. As with all graces of the Spirit, it must be stirred up, increased, and strengthened. See the Larger Catechism on sanctification, and compare with its teaching on assurance.



Reverend Winzer, I thought to 'testify' on my own personal experience but after reading the Larger Catechism, I decided it would be beside the point. I think what I'm seeing is that no matter what the believer's current state, past experience, he can trust in the Word as the exegesis of the Westminster Divines explains it ?


> Q. 75. What is sanctification?
> A. Sanctification is a work of God’s grace, whereby they whom God hath, before the foundation of the world, chosen to be holy, are in time, through the powerful operation of his Spirit314 applying the death and resurrection of Christ unto them,315 renewed in their whole man after the image of God;316 having the seeds of repentance unto life, and all other saving graces, put into their hearts,317 and those graces so stirred up, increased, and strengthened,318 as that they more and more die unto sin, and rise unto newness of life.319
> 
> Q. 76. What is repentance unto life?
> ...


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## Alan D. Strange (Sep 10, 2014)

David:

There are few of us who never struggle with assurance at any point in our Christian lives.

But assurance in some measure or degree ought more and more to characterize us, and as we walk with the Lord and exercise faith, as Brother Vic so beautifully put it, we will grow in such, not so much by directly aiming at it, but by reflecting upon it as we realize that we've made progress that we would never have made without the sanctifying grace of God in our lives. 

I think that in all its part the Confession puts it best, and what I cite here seems especially relevant to your question, David (WCF 18.3):

"This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it: yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto. And therefore it is the duty of everyone to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure, that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance; so far is it from inclining men to looseness."

Bottom line: even infallible assurance is not some extraordinary thing for a few select Christians but something that "true believers" (though perhaps only after some time and after many difficulties) "may...in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto." Let no one who is contending for such fret that he does not have it, but let no one think that it is only for the "super-Christian," as there are not any (though there are those more sanctified than others, but never those who think themselves to be more sanctified than others).

Peace,
Alan


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## David Shedlock (Sep 10, 2014)

armourbearer said:


> David Shedlock said:
> 
> 
> > What's "full" assurance? That is why I think it is a "second work". Do you have it?
> ...



I'll kindly ask again. Do you have it? 

As to your second question, yes, it includes sanctification. I am sanctified, am being sanctified and will be sanctified on the last day. I believe the promises to this fact.


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## David Shedlock (Sep 10, 2014)

I'll also reiterate my earlier question, perhaps making it more understandable. Does assurance cause "childlike obedience" or is it obtained by examining yourself and seeing such "childlike obedience"?


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## VictorBravo (Sep 10, 2014)

Jimmy, thank you for posting that portion of the WLC. It is always a help for those who wrestle with assurance.



David Shedlock said:


> Who (on the board, for example), wants to admit that they doubt if they are saved.



Well, I'll admit it. I have come to personify one aspect of my remaining sin that I'm aware of: I call him Doubtful the Accuser. I know him well--he is my own personal prosecutor. 

Right when things seem to be going well, the waters are stilled and I feel some aspect of comfort, the accuser starts speaking (not literally, but in my thoughts--for those who wonder if I hear voices--I do, but....nevermind) : "Do you really believe that? I didn't think so. Do you really think Christ saved you? Look at yourself and tell me you are righteous." Etc.

It is an exercise of applied faith to recall Hebrews 4:14: "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession."

And then the answer is simple, despite the doubting indwelling voice of my sinful heart: "Yes, I believe what I profess. I hold fast, and by God's grace will always hold fast."

The very fact that I can do that is an act of mercy and of grace on God's part, and I take it as a blessed and amazing fruit, worth more than any sort of wealth or comfort. And from that perspective, I don't see it as counting the good things in my favor, but rather, it is thanking God and even boasting of the remarkable work his Spirit brings about in a sinner who was as spiritually dead as Ezekiel's bones. And nobody else even sees it. 

Nevertheless, I am doing something: I'm holding fast, for dear life, gripping onto that anchor described, in Hebrews 6:19, the work, nature, and office our true High Priest :

"Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil...."


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## VictorBravo (Sep 10, 2014)

David Shedlock said:


> Does assurance cause "childlike obedience" or is it obtained by examining yourself and seeing such "childlike obedience"?



I don't see assurance causing childlike obedience. It would seem more like such obediece is one of "and those graces so stirred up, increased, and strengthened" described in the answer to Q. 75 of the Larger Catechism. Discerning this obedience, by the power of the Spirit, may bear witness of one's status before God--which is part of what I think we call "assurance."


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## David Shedlock (Sep 10, 2014)

> Do you really think Christ saved you? Look at yourself and tell me you are righteous."



I would tell 'ol slew-foot (the accuser of the brethren) that Christ is righteous and that he has paid the penalty for all my sins. I would quote portions of Romans 8 to him:

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?


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## MW (Sep 11, 2014)

David Shedlock said:


> I'll kindly ask again. Do you have it?



I think that is between me and my Lord.



David Shedlock said:


> As to your second question, yes, it includes sanctification. I am sanctified, am being sanctified and will be sanctified on the last day. I believe the promises to this fact.



Sanctification is the work of the Spirit in the believer. Assurance of that must require some reflection on Christian progress in terms of what 2 Peter 1 calls adding to faith.


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## JOwen (Sep 11, 2014)

David Shedlock said:


> > Do you really think Christ saved you? Look at yourself and tell me you are righteous."
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I would suggest reading Dr. Beeke's lamanized PhD thesis, "The Quest for Full Assurance". In it, you will find that Goodwin and Owen, for instance, have a different methodological approach as to precisely how full assurance is attained. If you really what to know what Beeke teaches on the subject, which is thoroughly Puritan & Reformed, you will want to read this book. It can't be trivialized, especially when you live in circles, as I do (as does Dr. Beeke), where many struggle greatly with it. Assurance can be attained, lost, and then found again through many circumstances throughout the life of the believer. "This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith", ad Dr. Strange points out is key. It is not the essence of faith, that is, it is not the sum and substance of faith, but rather assurance is the ripest fruit of faith. From your comments David, it appears that you have missed some steps along the way in rightly understanding this doctrine. As Jonathan Edwards wrote to Ebeneezer Erskine in a letter, ""Faith is belief, in its general sense, of what God has revealed to us in the gospel. He has revealed to us that all who believe will be saved, and we must believe that on the ground of the gospel assertion: but He has not revealed to us in the gospel that I, Jonathan Edwards, of Northampton, shall be saved, and therefore that does not belong to the essence of faith. The essence of faith consists in receiving what God has revealed." I'll leave you with Anthony Burgess when he said by sin, "we often chase away our assurance; many times the people of God may walk without this comfortable persuasion", that is the evidence of felt assurance.


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## Conner (Sep 11, 2014)

I just finished Thomas Brooks book, "Heaven on Earth" (where this quote comes from). Brooks is completely in accord with both the reformed creeds and the scriptures. I don't think he is speaking of assurance as a second work of grace, but rather seeing that full infallible assurance does not belong to the essence of faith. Check out perseverance of the saints in the canons of Dort, saving faith and assurance in the Westminster Confession of Faith, and Ursinus' commentary on the Heidelberg Catechism "what is faith". How long were the Christians John wrote to in his first epistle saved before they read the words of 1 John 5:13? "I write these things to you who believe, so that you may know that you have eternal life"


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## Conner (Sep 11, 2014)

Assurance grows out of, and is increased by sanctification. In the same way, sanctification is increased by and grows out of assurance. I don't see anything circular about that.


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## VictorBravo (Sep 11, 2014)

JOwen said:


> lamanized



I've never seen this word before and can't find it in any of my dictionaries. Google doesn't seem to yield a definition. What does it mean?


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## JOwen (Sep 11, 2014)

VictorBravo said:


> JOwen said:
> 
> 
> > lamanized
> ...



Sorry, Laymanized, "To make technical subjects understandable for non-technical people". Forgot the 'y'.


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## VictorBravo (Sep 11, 2014)

JOwen said:


> Sorry, Laymanized, "To make technical subjects understandable for non-technical people". Forgot the 'y'.



Thanks!


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## David Shedlock (Sep 13, 2014)

armourbearer said:


> David Shedlock said:
> 
> 
> > I'll kindly ask again. Do you have it?
> ...



I find this quite awkward. When sharing the gospel through preaching or personal witness, am I supposed to say that if they trust in Christ, they will be saved or they might be saved? "Whosoever shall call upon the Lord shall be saved" or "might be saved"? "Whosoever believeth is saved or might be saved"?

"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:" or is it we might be the children of God?
"Being confident of this very thing, that he which has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" or is it might perform it?

2 Timothy 1:12 - For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. Isn't this for everybody, or just for Paul? 

John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 

2 Timothy 4:8 - Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Philippians 1:6 - Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 3:12 - In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Romans 5:1 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Isaiah 12:2 - Behold, God [is] my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH [is] my strength and [my] song; he also is become my salvation.

Hebrews 6:19 - Which [hope] we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

Should we listen to pastors, for example, who cannot even assert that they know God and believe on him?


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## David Shedlock (Sep 13, 2014)

armourbearer said:


> David Shedlock said:
> 
> 
> > I'll kindly ask again. Do you have it?
> ...



Since someone on their deathbeds has no time for reflection on their progress, they cannot have any comfort or confidence of their eternal state? If self-examination of one's own sanctification is the basis of assurance, how is that different than one who is self-righteous?


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## David Shedlock (Sep 13, 2014)

Conner said:


> I just finished Thomas Brooks book, "Heaven on Earth" (where this quote comes from). Brooks is completely in accord with both the reformed creeds and the scriptures. I don't think he is speaking of assurance as a second work of grace, but rather seeing that full infallible assurance does not belong to the essence of faith. Check out perseverance of the saints in the canons of Dort, saving faith and assurance in the Westminster Confession of Faith, and Ursinus' commentary on the Heidelberg Catechism "what is faith". How long were the Christians John wrote to in his first epistle saved before they read the words of 1 John 5:13? "I write these things to you who believe, so that you may know that you have eternal life"



Do you agree that "yet it is only obtained by a few"? I find Brook's comments reprehensible, and arrogant, that he consider himself one of God's "best and dearest friends"


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## Conner (Sep 13, 2014)

David, it doesn't seem that you have been considering any of the responses on this thread recommending resources for why full assurance does not belong to the essence of faith. Check out the Westminster confession of faith chapters on saving faith and assurance. I think someone recommended Joel Beeke's work the quest for full assurance, that is a good place to start. Hey quick meditation on Psalm 77, Psalm 88, Psalm 130, and John 5:13 may also do the trick. One I would also like to read someday is Thomas Goodwin's "a child of light walking in darkness". See the Canons of Dort on perseverance of the saints as well.


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## Conner (Sep 13, 2014)

Sorry, I didn't see that last post. If you read the rest of the book you will see (I think) that Brooks maintains that assurance is available for every child of God. The universal testimony of all believers does show, however, that there are many who show strong evidence of being genuine believers, who yet can not seem to be assured of Gods love to them.


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## David Shedlock (Sep 13, 2014)

JOwen said:


> David Shedlock said:
> 
> 
> > > Do you really think Christ saved you? Look at yourself and tell me you are righteous."
> ...



"when you live in circles, as I do (as does Dr. Beeke), where many struggle greatly with it." Perhaps many struggle with it because of this teaching that assurance is only for a few.

If Jonathan Edwards were right, _no one_ could ever know that they are saved, because no one's name is written in the Bible.


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## David Shedlock (Sep 13, 2014)

> there are many who show strong evidence of being genuine believers, who yet can not seem to be assured of Gods love to them.



If you ask them, if they are trusting in Christ, do they not say they do? Then reassure them that it is all that "requires." IF they say they do not, then call upon them to trust Christ alone, not the evidence that you see that makes you_ think_ they are believers. Looking to your own sanctification for assurance seems like a fool's errand to me, since the vain professor can always find things in himself to make him confident.

Are you saying that Brooks didn't mean it, when he said that few, real Christians obtain assurance?


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## Conner (Sep 13, 2014)

The problem with confounding faith and assurance is the following, described by Goodwin in "The Objects And Acts of Justifying Faith". "In practice, many understand faith to be belief and persuasion only, so they make faith a good persuasion and opinion of their present condition. The object in goal of their faith is their own estate, and not Christ and his love, so their faith is not a good opinion of him or founded on the daily thoughts they have of his merit, satisfaction, mercy, grace, righteousness, etc. their faith is a good opinion of themselves, arising out of the self-flattery of their own hearts, so that they honor not Christ in their thoughts so much as themselves; theirs is a judgment of charity to themselves rather than faith in Christ. I call it the charitable opinion that one Christian is bound to have of others, the assumption that they are the children of God, but their eternal state is good, and that they are in Christ. Such a charitable opinion of themselves, whereby, as the apostle says of the Hebrews, they are persuaded of good things concerning themselves, is the only faith of the great many people; but this is not to believe on Christ, but on themselves. The fact that their own estate is indeed the object of their faith is evident by this, that if any man goes about to discover his natural condition while he is without true faith, he soon becomes upset, and says, "You would bring me to unbelief and despair. "This is because an apprehension that his present state is good is that, and all that, which he reckons is faith. But those who seek his good would bring him from a false belief about his state and himself to a good and a true belief in Christ, and on God's free grace, which are the prime objects of faith."


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## Conner (Sep 13, 2014)

If you ask a genuine believer if they are trusting in Christ, then one possible answer at a rough spot could possibly be, "I don't know". It has certainly happened to me before.


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## Semper Fidelis (Sep 13, 2014)

David,

For one who claims to subscribe to Reformed doctrine you have a lot of animus toward it. Before you've even asked the question, you are already convinced the reasoning is circular.

Do you understand the concept of union with Christ? If you do then your concern about circular reasoning would be resolved. From where is your assurance grounded? You say it's not looking within yourself but you're the person stating he has assurance and so you are very sure of your assurance. Upon what basis? Is it simply the strength of your own will to look outside yourself and believe that you are assured?

The Reformed doctrine of assurance is rooted in Christ as Mediator - as Prophet, Priest, and King. I suggest you read the WLC on this topic because it is very rich. We believe at first because of Christ's intercession, the conversion of our hearts by the Prophetic office of preaching, and we are perfected and kept by Christ's rule. If you have not studied union with Christ you need to do so. It's not that Christ's own will potentially bear fruit or probably bear fruit but will bear fruit.

Why is it called fruit? Why do the Apostles call something fruit? Why does Christ condemn the Pharisees for failing to produce fruit? Is fruit something hidden?

You see, if we are in Christ we are saved. If we are in Christ we are abiding in the vine. If we are in the vine then Christ says that all who are in Him bear fruit. It's all part of His work as Prophet, Priest, and King. What is visible to us is FRUIT. That's why Christ calls it that. We don't have contact with eternity or know the hidden will of God. We know what is manifest.

Thus we believe the Word and it says that all those who put their trust in Christ will be saved. We ask ourselves: Am I believing? Yes. I am united to Christ. The fruit has assured us.

The Word says that all who are baptized and believe in Christ can count on the Promise of God. Satan assails us with our sin and we ask ourselves: "Am I despairing of myself and trusting in Christ for my salvation alone? I am. Christ promises in my baptism that I am saved if I put my trust in Him. I know I'm saved."

The Word says that all who abide in Christ will be made holy. Do I see any evidence of fruit? Do I look like one who is abiding in the Vine? Yeah, I see sin in my members but I also see that the Spirit is enabling me to give battle to sin and I find myself more affectionate for the things of God. I can see the work of Christ in my life and I am yet again assured by fruit.

The irony of the one who despises looking at fruit is how self-dependent they are. How strong they are. The Reformed doctrines of fruit is actually an admission of how weak and beggarly we are as creatures. We are limited in time and space and prone to melancholy and set backs. We walk through the valley of the shadow of death and wonder if God might possibly love us. Christ doesn't say: "Suck it up! You either have faith or you don't. Just remember to believe HARD!"

No, our Savior condescends. The Sacraments are beggarly evidences. Preaching reminds us to look again to Christ. We are constantly called to repent and turn to Christ because we're beggarly. We're told to look at the fruit that Christ is producing in us not because we're strong but because we're weak and we need yet another beggarly witness that what we might be telling ourselves is less true than the fruit we see from the loving Hand of our Prophet, Priest, and King.

If you find yourself able to stand so firm without any of the things that Christ has given to you to assure that you are His own well I would say be careful that you stand lest you fall. It is not a fool's errand to look at the Lord's work in us but surely is folly to despise the number of places where the Lord comforts the weak by saying: "Look at what I'm doing."


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## David Shedlock (Sep 13, 2014)

armourbearer said:


> David Shedlock said:
> 
> 
> > I'll kindly ask again. Do you have it?
> ...



So, if you were my pastor, you couldn't tell me if you are saved or not, if your sins are forgiven are not?


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## JimmyH (Sep 13, 2014)

2 Peter 1:5-15Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11 for so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


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## Conner (Sep 13, 2014)

I believe, help my unbelief...


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## David Shedlock (Sep 13, 2014)

> For one who claims to subscribe to Reformed doctrine you have a lot of animus toward it. Before you've even asked the question, you are already convinced the reasoning is circular.



I suggest that Beeke is arguing in circles, not the confession. I have been told that habitual sin is evidence that I may not be saved. What about the habitual sin of doubting God's promises? 




> From where is your assurance grounded? You say it's not looking within yourself but you're the person stating he has assurance and so you are very sure of your assurance. Upon what basis? Is it simply the strength of your own will to look outside yourself and believe that you are assured?



You seem to make it too complicated. My assurance is based upon the many passages I quoted earlier and many others. I believe them. Being born again into his kingdom and translated from darkness into light, is not something that could go unnoticed by a believer. When you're saved, you know it. (And the Spirit bears witness that I am saved.) One of our elders came away from reading one of the Erskine brothers' biography, when Erskine said, essentially, that he grew up and was even ordained as a Presbyterian minister _before _ he realized that he needed to be born again. Perhaps an overreaction to "altar calls" has led us to think that being born again can happen without our notice: "But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins."

In the parable of the Pharisee and Tax Collector, it is the Pharisee who examined himself and saw evidences of faith. The other, who went home justified, saw only his sin and cried out in repentance.

" Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" This Scripture says that we are to examine our faith, not our obedience, and to take notice of whether Christ is in us.


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## Alan D. Strange (Sep 13, 2014)

My dear brother David:

We may all confess the same thing but do not express all of our convictions about the faith in the same way. Perhaps you don't care for the way some put the matter of assurance. I can appreciate that. I certainly would reject "habitual sin means that one is not saved," but that's not quite the same thing as someone saying that it "may mean" that. Are you saying simply and plainly that everyone who claims to be saved is saved? I hope not, since that would be contra WCF 18.1

Now, I agree that there are those who put too much emphasis on the subjective (our sense of our trust, good works, etc.) and too little on looking to Christ. Bonar is supposed to have said, "For every look at yourself, take ten looks at Christ." Brooks said what he did, though I think that others have done a good job contextualizing it. I think that Dr. Beeke's remarks have been contextualized as well. Perhaps you don't agree with how these brothers slice things. That's all right as long as we believe and confess the same things, though differing in expressions. We have some different ways of putting things, given our particular concerns, but you seem determined, pardon me for putting it so strongly, to go after these brothers. 

Differ with the way that Beeke and Brooks put it--fine--but your tone in this, brother, concerns me (I agree with Rich that you seem to have an animus here), and I would encourage you to think more carefully about the way that you continue to address matters here. 

Peace,
Alan


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## David Shedlock (Sep 13, 2014)

Thank you, Dr. Strange, for your gracious response. 

Your wrote


> "Are you saying simply and plainly that everyone who claims to be saved is saved?"



No, of course not, the Scriptures teach otherwise. Our discussions have been in the context of believers.


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## Alan D. Strange (Sep 13, 2014)

David:

I appreciate your gracious response, brother.

And your specific answer to my question about all who claim to be saved. Your answer is biblical and confessional--not all who make the claim are necessarily partakers of salvation.

I also appreciate it when you end by saying, "our discussions have been in the context of believers." This is just the question, though, isn't it? Am I necessarily a believer because I am on this board, confess what I do, and am even a teacher in Christ's church? No. All of that is but refuse as far as my eternal destiny is concerned, rightly understood. 

I am sinner, through and through, desperately in need every moment of a Savior, and having none at all, and no hope whatseover, but Christ. I am thinking of Paul here in Philippians 3, brother. The reason that I have assurance is not because of anything that I am or have or do, but because of who Christ is and what He has done for me. Now, He who has justified me freely and adopted me graciously also sanctifies me. But if I dare not trust the sweetest frame, I dare trust nothing but Jesus' name. And when I do, I desire to live for Him and Him alone, though I fall so short and fail miserably in this. 

If you are saying that this should all be easy--If I believe on Him, I should have assurance, this misses the reality of the dynamic of a living relationship. It does not work this way in real life relationships nor in my relationship with Christ. There are many ups and downs and my assurance ebbs and flows with that. Yes, I should have assurance perfectly all the time and not have it intermitted by my sin and struggles. I also should not sin. The reality, however, of all of this is beautifully realized in WCF 18, especially the reasons for intermitting of assurance by 18.4: 

"True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it, by falling into some special sin which woundeth the conscience and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation, by God's withdrawing the light of his countenance, and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light: yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be revived; and by the which, in the meantime, they are supported from utter despair."

Assurance is the problem that it is, and not as simple as you want to make it (at least so it seems to me), because we have remaining sin. Yes, we can have infallible assurance, but even that ebbs and flows as does our faith and repentance. One can get frustrated over this, just like one can be frustrated at the incomprehensibility of God and all His ways: How can God be three-in-one, how can Christ have two natures in one person, how can He be sovereign and I responsible, how can I believe and yet sometimes question whether I really believe? Assurance is not an all or nothing proposition, and it's unsurprising that, since we differ in degrees of sanctification, we will differ in degrees of assurance. 

Peace,
Alan


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## VictorBravo (Sep 13, 2014)

David Shedlock said:


> So, if you were my pastor, you couldn't tell me if you are saved or not, if your sins are forgiven are not?



I think this personal focus detracts from the preaching.

If a pastor says, "I'm saved because I believe, and I know I'm saved because of the following things I do....", I'd get nervous about the message. The reason is that the focus is all on self, which I think is dangerous ground. The heart is desperately wicked. We are all self-deceived and cannot even judge our own thoughts and actions without God's grace and without looking to God's standards.

It strikes me as a strange question to ask someone who holds to the Doctrines of Grace: "are you saved or not?" The only truthful answer that seems possible is along the lines of "I believe God's word and promise, may God grant that I believe and have mercy on my unbelief."


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## Semper Fidelis (Sep 13, 2014)

David Shedlock said:


> I suggest that Beeke is arguing in circles, not the confession. I have been told that habitual sin is evidence that I may not be saved. What about the habitual sin of doubting God's promises?



Here is the WLC on Assurance:

Q. 80. Can true believers be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace, and that they shall persevere therein unto salvation?
A. Such as truly believe in Christ, and endeavour to walk in all good conscience before him,349 may, without extraordinary revelation, by faith grounded upon the truth of God’s promises, and *by the Spirit enabling them to discern in themselves those graces to which the promises of life are made*,350 and bearing witness with their spirits that they are the children of God,351 be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace, and shall persevere therein unto salvation.352

Q. 81. Are all true believers at all times assured of their present being in the estate of grace, and that they shall be saved?
A. Assurance of grace and salvation not being of the essence of faith,353 true believers may wait long before they obtain it;354 and, after the enjoyment thereof, may have it weakened and intermitted, through manifold distempers, sins, temptations, and desertions;355 yet they are never left without such a presence and support of the Spirit of God as keeps them from sinking into utter despair.356

Footnote 350: 1 Corinthians 2:12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 1 John 3:14, 18-19, 21, 24. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death..... My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him..... Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.... And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. 1 John 4:13, 16. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.... And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. Hebrews 6:11-12. And we desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Now what are the "graces" that you are enabled to see in yourself to which the promises of life are made? Here is the list form the WLC:

1. Faith (Question 32)
2. Justification (Question 73)
3. Good works (Question 73, 75)
4. Repentance unto life (Question 75, 76)
5. Sanctification (Question 75)

If you agree with the Standards then when it states that the Spirit enables us to see in ourselves the graces that attend with being partakers in life and it lists the graces as above (to include not only our faith but also our progress in sanctification) then what is your argument about?


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## David Shedlock (Sep 23, 2014)

Alan D. Strange said:


> David:
> 
> I appreciate your gracious response, brother.
> 
> ...



I was with you all the way until the last sentence. Our assurance, if based upon our own sanctification, will be the fleeting thing you describe. I see two dangers with this approach. 1). That self-examination leads me to believe I am saved, which leads to self-righteousness or 2) I truly see my sin more and more, leading to desperation. However, if my trust is in the work of Christ and His grace alone, my assurance will be study. I have said it before, I understand that it can be at a low ebb in times of trial or temptation. Who used self-examination in the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector?


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## David Shedlock (Sep 23, 2014)

VictorBravo said:


> David Shedlock said:
> 
> 
> > So, if you were my pastor, you couldn't tell me if you are saved or not, if your sins are forgiven are not?
> ...



I would also be worried if he said "I'm saved because I believe, and I know I'm saved because of the following things I do...." That is my point exactly. Self-examination for assurance is a losing argument for me. The New Testament is full of testimonies of saints declaring that their sins are forgiven, they are saved, etc. No wonder in some circles, so few come to the table.


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## David Shedlock (Sep 23, 2014)

> If you agree with the Standards then when it states that the Spirit enables us to see in ourselves the graces that attend with being partakers in life and it lists the graces as above (to include not only our faith but also our progress in sanctification) then what is your argument about?



Questions 73-75 only speak of what God will do in the believer. It says nothing of the Spirit enabling him to see in himself these graces. That seems to be a gloss.


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## AJ Castellitto (Sep 24, 2014)

I agree with David, I am usually led to self-examination due to guilt & sin, as soon as I look in & reflect
I am forced to look back out to Christ..... There is my faith & assurance found.... Assurance is in Christ. And guilt over sin is an aspect of faith as well as repentance & faith exercises that get us away from entertaining sin & pride.. And to greater reverence, humility & personal/group fellowship with God. When someone asks are you saved? A humble response is 'I can't deny Jesus has awakened me & become my dependency' .... Might not be worded perfectly but I think we get the gist


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## AJ Castellitto (Sep 24, 2014)

I do think Beeke over expounds.... Sin & trials shake the faith by making us 'me' focused as does pride, success & ambition can make us too 'me' focused..... But we must not remain there..... We can wrestle with God & spiritually fight & war against affliction (that's where the light may dim) but our feelings & emotions may not undue our faith & dependency.... So even in storms of life we will be forced to humbly praise & persevere (never losing our faith) and view of Christ as the object of our faith & assurance (which I think is rightly experienced as dependency)


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## AJ Castellitto (Sep 24, 2014)

Sorry, I forgot to add the link I was reading... Faith and Assurance by Joel Beeke | Reformed Theology Articles at Ligonier.org maybe it just depends on where we are in our spiritual life that affects our subjective view but I think we get too much intellectual instruction up front & tend to 'follow, seek, search, wait on' as prescribed by the theologian rather than just get to know & experience God through getting in the Word & communicating through prayer... Theology is important but I believe it can sometimes over systemize or force too much unto the word, instead of allowing the word to come to us & personally speak to us


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## MW (Sep 24, 2014)

David Shedlock said:


> Questions 73-75 only speak of what God will do in the believer. It says nothing of the Spirit enabling him to see in himself these graces. That seems to be a gloss.



The correct reference is answer 80, which includes in its description of assurance, "and by the Spirit enabling them to discern in themselves those graces to which the promises of life are made." This is what makes assurance real, as opposed to being an existential leap of faith.


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## Semper Fidelis (Sep 25, 2014)

David Shedlock said:


> > If you agree with the Standards then when it states that the Spirit enables us to see in ourselves the graces that attend with being partakers in life and it lists the graces as above (to include not only our faith but also our progress in sanctification) then what is your argument about?
> 
> 
> 
> Questions 73-75 only speak of what God will do in the believer. It says nothing of the Spirit enabling him to see in himself these graces. That seems to be a gloss.





Semper Fidelis said:


> David Shedlock said:
> 
> 
> > I suggest that Beeke is arguing in circles, not the confession. I have been told that habitual sin is evidence that I may not be saved. What about the habitual sin of doubting God's promises?
> ...





armourbearer said:


> David Shedlock said:
> 
> 
> > Questions 73-75 only speak of what God will do in the believer. It says nothing of the Spirit enabling him to see in himself these graces. That seems to be a gloss.
> ...



David,

I believe the one who is glossing over what I quoted is you. Question 80 and 81 (which I quoted) speak of Assurance and how the Spirit works assurance within the believer. I specifically noted that the Spirit enables a believer to discern _in themselves_ those graces to which the promises of life are made.

Now, one has to ask oneself: What did they mean by "the graces"? This is answered all over the Standards and so I quoted some of the examples (73-75) of where the standards list the graces that come from union with Christ. Among those graces are the things I listed.

And so I ask you again, if you agree with the Standards then what is your problem?

You noted that WLC 73-75 are the things that God produces in us.

Precisely!

Whoever said otherwise? It is the Spirit's work in us that produces life. As we abide in the Vine we _will_ produce fruit. Consequently, what the Standards teach is that we can discern the fruit that is being produced within us _as one example_ of progress in sanctification. What, precisely, do you think the metaphor of "fruit" is used for by Christ and the Apostles so frequently? Are the "fruits of the Spirit" something we are to expect in our lives or not? If we do have fruit then will it be at all evident?

William Perkins' _Golden Chain_ makes the point that our salvation is from eternity but we are in history. We cannot see the decree of God but our salvation is linked to eternity past, present, and future. God elected us, called us, justified us, adopted us, is sanctifiying us, and will glorify us.

Grab the chain at any point and you're able to see yourself in salvation history.

- Grab it at baptism and you can be assured of salvation because of the Promise made in your baptism and the faith you have in your Savior.
- Grab it in times of severe trial and temptation on a simple trust in Christ where you can scarcely believe that you believe the Gospel and you can still be assured.
- Grab it (as Israel did near the end of his life) by looking back over the years in your more quiet and reflective moments and think about how the Lord has made you more patient and kind that you used to be. These moments may not be constant but they exist where you can see that your numbers have been few and evil but that the Angel of the Lord has been faithful for all these years. You can see that the Lord has produced fruit in you because His Hand kept you in Him. This is not, as some keep insisting, some trust in one's on righteousness but a humble acknowledgement that the Lord has been good to you and preserved you from many dangers, toils, and snares and given you successes over some temptations but preserved you during the failures. 

All of these (and others) are examples of how we can "grab" hold of the chain and be assured of our salvation. While it may seem "humble" to say that one does not look to himself, even the publican in the parable had to acknowledge himself a sinner and reach out to Christ. It is impossible to not be self-aware as to whether one believes the Gospel or not. When the Scriptures say: "If Today you hear His voice, harden not your hearts" we have to be able to acknowledge ourselves yet sinful and in need of a Savior. There is no escaping self-examination.


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## jwithnell (Sep 25, 2014)

If scripture tells us to "examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith," (2 Cor 13:5) it follows that the question is open for either a yes or no response. Such verses are a safe guard for the terrifying scene of appearing before Christ to be told: "depart from me, I never knew you" (Matt 7:23). This is consistent with the WCF's teaching on the assurance of faith.

This isn't a "second work" as much as an ongoing part of sanctification. And while going through times where assurance has waned very low (yup, people on this board would admit to going through such times, count me among them) such times can also lead to periods of great devotion and closeness to Jesus as we discover anew our total and complete dependence on Him.

Objectivity has been mentioned, but it needs to be address directly. Though I'm not familiar with the Beeke work you mention, other great authors on the subject including J.C. Ryle are careful to turn the reader's eye from inward feelings to an outward examination of the work that Jesus has done and to the promises scripture has made. Others, including Jonathan Edwards and Richard Sibbes comment on concerns for those who never ask questions of assurance.


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## AJ Castellitto (Sep 27, 2014)

I think those last 2 posts bring more clarity....

I think I have the dependency part down, I still feel like a 'little faith' when it comes to the fruit.... But I have so many bad habits from a fairly godless upbringing & poor choices early on, that I feel I spend more time picking myself off the floor than making any spiritual progress


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## AJ Castellitto (Sep 27, 2014)

I have a related question though, in Reformed circles issues related to salvation are thoroughly dissected - earlier in this thread it was mentioned 'can you have true saving faith & lack assurance?'.... And we have many Reformed ministers who blush & hesitate when asked 'are you saved?'

But I think we are losing that childlike dependency in all of this - like the poor huckster testifies....

Let's break it down this way... Can you deny Jesus? Well, Peter denied Jesus, so I guess we can too.... But if you did would you weep bitterly? If the answer is yes, there is your assurance AND your faith!


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## AJ Castellitto (Sep 27, 2014)

David Shedlock said:


> VictorBravo said:
> 
> 
> > David Shedlock said:
> ...



Very true!


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## AJ Castellitto (Sep 27, 2014)

David Shedlock said:


> Alan D. Strange said:
> 
> 
> > David:
> ...



I agree with your insights somewhat here ..... Yet Beeke understands, I'm sure, that sanctification produces great knowledge of sin & desire for obedience, if we become a greater sinner with greater knowledge of sin the self-examination probably defeats assurance but with the sanctification comes the greater dependency & obedient spirit.... When the examination is placed on those transformative aspects our assured faith is revealed (or reaffirmed), as confirmed by other posters here as relates to the Confession


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## JimmyH (Sep 27, 2014)

I don't have great knowledge of theology, but I've got great knowledge of sin, and of repentance of same. I'm 65, got saved when I was 36, went to church for a year or so, then stopped and didn't go back for 25 years. During that time I used to say that if we weren't "saved by grace, through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God." I was in a heap of trouble. No joke.

Say that to say, I don't know that my works won't be hay and stubble on 'that day', but I know that Jesus Christ took my sins upon Himself and washed me in His own blood. I have that much assurance. In my unschooled opinion the very fact that assurance concerns you says the Holy Spirit is working within you. Before I was regenerate I couldn't have cared less. Philippians 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:


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## AJ Castellitto (Sep 28, 2014)

JimmyH said:


> 2 Peter 1:5-15Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
> 
> 5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11 for so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.



Can't argue that


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## MW (Sep 28, 2014)

AJ Castellitto said:


> And we have many Reformed ministers who blush & hesitate when asked 'are you saved?'



They very likely enjoy assurance, but do not want to set themselves up as superior to others. It is not that they blush and hesitate. They are moderate and pastorally sensitive. 2 Corinthians 4:5. It would be well if others followed their lead.


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## AJ Castellitto (Sep 28, 2014)

armourbearer said:


> AJ Castellitto said:
> 
> 
> > And we have many Reformed ministers who blush & hesitate when asked 'are you saved?'
> ...



Interesting, I think members in reformed churches are not concerned that a pastor is superior, they are concerned that the pastor is just as insecure as themselves.... That is the point of this thread.... A concern about much preaching & teaching and little actual faith & believing or real acknowledgement of it


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## AJ Castellitto (Sep 28, 2014)

I (as was Beeke) am ex-NRC .... Just to provide some context for my concern.... I'm very frustrated with what I bought into there.... But I'm still a believer of properly applied Reformed doctrine


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## Semper Fidelis (Sep 29, 2014)

AJ Castellitto said:


> I think those last 2 posts bring more clarity....
> 
> I think I have the dependency part down, I still feel like a 'little faith' when it comes to the fruit.... But I have so many bad habits from a fairly godless upbringing & poor choices early on, that I feel I spend more time picking myself off the floor than making any spiritual progress


I think you missed the point because you keep talking, experientially, as if it is _your_ work that progresses you spiritually. Christ testified in John 15:
"I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing."

Paul testifies in Galatians 5:
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit.

Christ doesn't say: "Some of you who abide in me, will bear fruit" but declares that whoever abides in him will bear much fruit.

Paul doesn't testify that some who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh but describes the fruit of the Spirit, which the Spirit produces because it is by the Spirit that we abide in Christ. Paul tells the Galatians this after he points out the "bad habits" that some of them had become accustomed to because they looked to themselves for progress in holiness. Rather, he testifies that when we abide in the Spirit the fruits of the Spirit flower by the strength He supplies.


AJ Castellitto said:


> I have a related question though, in Reformed circles issues related to salvation are thoroughly dissected - earlier in this thread it was mentioned 'can you have true saving faith & lack assurance?'.... And we have many Reformed ministers who blush & hesitate when asked 'are you saved?'
> 
> But I think we are losing that childlike dependency in all of this - like the poor huckster testifies....
> 
> Let's break it down this way... Can you deny Jesus? Well, Peter denied Jesus, so I guess we can too.... But if you did would you weep bitterly? If the answer is yes, there is your assurance AND your faith!



I haven't met a Reformed minister who "blushes" at the question. Who are these "many" Reformed ministers who hesitate when asked if they are saved?

You also seem to despise those who actually spend time wrestling with these things. Just because something is "homespun" does not make it child-like in the sense of faith. It may be childish in terms of understanding but it is not childlike. Shooting from the hip is not the same thing as being renewed in one's thinking by the Scriptures. Paul, in Romans 12:1-2, doesn't say: "Forget all that stuff I just wrote to you because I don't want to get you bogged down in all the details. All you need to do is have a child-like faith and forget all that heavy stuff I just spent several pages describing to give you confidence in your salvation."

So, all we need is to know that Peter wept bitterly and if we weep bitterly then we can know we're saved? Is that what your saying? Esau wept bitterly as well. Ought I to read what the Scriptures say about that or is that too complicated?


AJ Castellitto said:


> Interesting, I think members in reformed churches are not concerned that a pastor is superior, they are concerned that the pastor is just as insecure as themselves.... That is the point of this thread.... A concern about much preaching & teaching and little actual faith & believing or real acknowledgement of it


The disdain you have for others drips from your language here. Is hypocrisy a threat? Yes. Does that mean that all that study of the Word and teaching about it can produce is hypocrisy? No.

Why would a member in a Church need to know that a minister is as insecure as they are? If a man comes to a minister who doubts that the Gospel is true for him, is the minister's only reply that is suitable is to tell him that he shares the same insecurity?


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## jwithnell (Oct 1, 2014)

> But I have so many bad habits from a fairly godless upbringing & poor choices early on, that I feel I spend more time picking myself off the floor than making any spiritual progress


 That's OK! The Bible holds out all kinds of hope to you. Read it, trust in its objective truth, dust yourself off and keep on going.


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