# Can someone be born again without ever hearing of God, Jesus & the Holy Ghost?



## David FCC (Oct 13, 2008)

....Ever hearing of God, Jesus & the Holy Ghost?

As we read, "No man cometh unto the Father but by me" & "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"

This discussion came up in fellowship and i would just like to know the points that are made here.

Now I know that anything is possible with God but the scriptures point to us having to believe on Jesus.

Discuss please


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## mshingler (Oct 13, 2008)

Interesting. I had a very similar discussion recently. I think Rom. 10:14-17 sums it up, particularly verse 17, "So faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God." Also, 1Pet. 23, "you have been born again, not of perishable seed but imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God."


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## Scott1 (Oct 13, 2008)

As I understand it, Reformed Theology would recognize it is possible.

The "ordinary means" God has chosen to use for salvation is the preaching of God's Word. God ordains both the ends (who He chooses to regenerate), and the means.

When we say "ordinary means" we mean God is not absolutely limited by them.

Consider the summary of the doctrine of Scripture contained in Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter V 3. and the Scripture proofs [emphasis added]:



> III. God, in His ordinary providence, makes use of means,[10] *yet is free to work without*,[11] *above*,[12] *and against them*,[13] *at His pleasure*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This means God is not limited from redeeming, for example in cases of a child in his mother's womb, or by a deaf person, etc.

Since salvation is 100% an act of God and He determines whether to regenerate someone, He is not limited either by method or our [presumed] ability of the person to understand.

Having said that, it clearly is the ordinary means to hear by preaching the Gospel, special revelation of Christ by Scripture and he clearly commands His church to do so.


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## kvanlaan (Oct 13, 2008)

Billy Graham thinks so. So does Joel Osteen (sorta kinda, but he's not real sure about all that 'scripture' stuff.)


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## mshingler (Oct 13, 2008)

Scott1 said:


> This means God is not limited from redeeming, for example in cases of a child in his mother's womb, or by a deaf person, etc.



Just to clarify my previous response, I would agree about the case of an infant, at least in the case of an elect child dying in infancy. I was presupposing a context of adults being saved apart from the word of the gospel.


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## Pergamum (Oct 13, 2008)

Why can't the native in the jungle than be saved? Not even a chance of hearing revealed religion for hundreds of years!


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## Pergamum (Oct 13, 2008)

mshingler said:


> Scott1 said:
> 
> 
> > This means God is not limited from redeeming, for example in cases of a child in his mother's womb, or by a deaf person, etc.
> ...



What is the cut-off age? 4 years? 5 years? 7 years and 244 days?

I do not want to have to rely upon some invented age of accountability.


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## toddpedlar (Oct 13, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> mshingler said:
> 
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> > Scott1 said:
> ...



Nobody knows, of course. So, you have to trust in the Lord and raise children in His training and admonition, and urge upon them the necessity of trusting in Him as well. Nothing more can or need be said. In the case of any child dying in infancy (or early childhood) we can only trust that God is just and right in all he does. In the case of the OP, since God is in control of the message getting to His elect, and in charge of their regeneration (or non-regeneration) through that word, then they surely will hear if they are elect - and if not, they were not.


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## MLCOPE2 (Oct 13, 2008)

This I think would be a perfect example of the need for missions work. Even though God has chosen the redeemed on the basis of his good will he has also chosen that they come through faith in hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ. Just like Paul said:

"How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, 'How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!'"

Therefore God has chosen the preaching of the gospel as the means to bringing the elect to salvation.


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## mshingler (Oct 13, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> Why can't the native in the jungle than be saved? Not even a chance of hearing revealed religion for hundreds of years!



Hence part of the motivation for world missions. The Great Commission mandate is to take the gospel to every people group in the world, as God has an elect people from every tribe, tongue, kindred and nation. As was just mentioned above, "If they are elect they will hear." At the same time, this should not cause us to take a passive stance toward the Great Commission. I think the instance of Paul in Acts 18 is instructive here:
Ac 18:9-10 And the Lord said to Paul in the night by a vision, “Do not be afraid any longer, but go on speaking and do not be silent; for I am with you, and no man will attack you in order to harm you, for I have many people in this city.” (NASB)
God has His elect people in the city of Corinth, and He will save them. Yet, it is an encouragement, as well as a necessity, for Paul to remain and continue to preach the word, for it is through the word that God is going to save His elect people.


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## mshingler (Oct 13, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> What is the cut-off age? 4 years? 5 years? 7 years and 244 days?
> 
> I do not want to have to rely upon some invented age of accountability.



We don't have to rely on any invented age. We need to continually train up our children in the truth of the gospel and leave the rest with God, who alone knows the hearts of men and the hidden counsels of His own purposes.


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## Herald (Oct 13, 2008)

I believe one thing that needs to be dismissed is natural human affections. It is difficult (for some) to imagine the tribal person who has never heard the gospel being either condemned or not given a chance to be saved. We cannot question God's ways. The only source we have to go on is the written word of God. We do know that "for in Adam, all die (1 Cor. 15:22); "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:23); and that "the wages of sin is death" (Rom. 6:23). So then, original sin, the universality of sin and the consequence of sin is well established by scripture. The remedy is equally established. "Unless one is born again He cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3), "I am the way, the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6), "That is you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" (Rom. 10:9), and "For by grace you are saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:9). Lastly, "How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?" (Rom. 10:14).

Mans condition and the remedy are clearly addressed in scripture. How do we reconcile the word of God with the view that a person may not have to actually hear the gospel?


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## satz (Oct 13, 2008)

I think the question of "can a person be born again without..." needs to be distinguished from "can a person be saved without..." as they can be asking different things depending on how one uses words. The bible uses the word 'saved' in many different ways.

I believe a person can indeed be born again without hearing of God, Jesus, the Holy Ghost or the gospel, because being born again is solely the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit without the use of any means whatsoever. In fact, not only 'can' a person be born again without hearing of any of those, but I believe the bible teaches that every single christian is in fact born again without hearing because before being born again a man or woman cannot appreciate or believe any of those things.

It is only after being born again that a person hears and believes the gospel, and learns about God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. These two steps (being 1) born again and 2)believing) are, I believe, seperate steps in salvation. One (being born again) is completely the work of the Holy Spirit all by himself. The other (believing) requires men to preach the gospel so the born again person can believe.


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## Jimmy the Greek (Oct 13, 2008)

> I believe, seperate steps in salvation. One (being born again) is completely the work of the Holy Spirit all by himself. The other (believing) requires men to preach the gospel so the born again person can believe.



True, but I do not believe we can infer Scripturally or from the Confessions that there may be regenerate people running around who are not saved. There is a logical priority associated with regeneration and believing, but not a necessary or implied temporal difference.

Consequently, in God's timing and sovereignty, when one of his elect is confronted with the gospel of Christ (by whatever means), he is enabled to receive it and believe it through instant regeneration.


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## TimV (Oct 13, 2008)

> What is the cut-off age? 4 years? 5 years? 7 years and 244 days?
> 
> I do not want to have to rely upon some invented age of accountability.



As I said to you a few days ago, you either believe the WFC or you don't. The WFC doesn't say anything about an age of accountability, so why should anyone have to?


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## Herald (Oct 13, 2008)

satz said:


> I think the question of "can a person be born again without..." needs to be distinguished from "can a person be saved without..." as they can be asking different things depending on how one uses words. The bible uses the word 'saved' in many different ways.
> 
> I believe a person can indeed be born again without hearing of God, Jesus, the Holy Ghost or the gospel, because being born again is solely the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit without the use of any means whatsoever. In fact, not only 'can' a person be born again without hearing of any of those, but I believe the bible teaches that every single christian is in fact born again without hearing because before being born again a man or woman cannot appreciate or believe any of those things.
> 
> It is only after being born again that a person hears and believes the gospel, and learns about God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. These two steps (being 1) born again and 2)believing) are, I believe, seperate steps in salvation. One (being born again) is completely the work of the Holy Spirit all by himself. The other (believing) requires men to preach the gospel so the born again person can believe.



Mark, you're dissecting the _ordo salutis_, where regeneration proceeds saving faith. But even if the gap between both is lengthy, the entire process need be accomplished.

The 1689 LBC states:



> Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.



_They come most freely, being made willing by his grace._ What are they coming to, if not Christ? How can they come to Him in whom they have not heard? I see no evidence in scripture that God would regenerate a person and leave them to languish without saving faith, solely because there was no avenue for them to hear the gospel. 



> I believe a person can indeed be born again without hearing of God, Jesus, the Holy Ghost or the gospel, because being born again is solely the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit without the use of any means whatsoever.



You have a high view of the Holy Spirit which is commendable. But there is a means. The means is Christ. The Holy Spirit would be unable to seal a person if it were not for what Christ accomplished on the cross. Again the confession states:



> The Lord Jesus, by his perfect obedience and sacrifice of himself, which he through the eternal Spirit once offered up unto God, hath fully satisfied the justice of God, procured reconciliation, and purchased an everlasting inheritance in the kingdom of heaven, for all those whom the Father hath given unto Him.



At the risk of being verbose, read Paul's words in Romans 10:



> *Romans 10:1-21* Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART "-- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. 18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD." 19 But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says, "I WILL MAKE YOU JEALOUS BY THAT WHICH IS NOT A NATION, BY A NATION WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WILL I ANGER YOU." 20 And Isaiah is very bold and says, "I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME, I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME." 21 But as for Israel He says, "ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE."



There is a coming to God, by faith, for all who have been born again.


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## TimV (Oct 13, 2008)

> Mans condition and the remedy are clearly addressed in scripture. How do we reconcile the word of God with the view that a person may not have to actually hear the gospel?



You don't have to reconcile people who are already friends. 

None of the verses you quote contradict the WCF statement on the subject. Bruce Buchanan pointed out clearly just a few days ago in a detailed post how John jumped for joy before he could hear or understand anything anything close to what you can. The Gospel is a royal proclamation, and if a qualification were understanding it at the same level God understands it, none of us would be saved. To some, He gives grace, and a sufficient understanding of the Gospel to have faith, and there's no bottom limit of human intelligence necessary to receive this faith.


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## Herald (Oct 13, 2008)

TimV said:


> > Mans condition and the remedy are clearly addressed in scripture. How do we reconcile the word of God with the view that a person may not have to actually hear the gospel?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tim, you misunderstood my question. My point is that there is no reconciliation and to attempt to reconcile would be futile. If I didn't make that clear, I apologize.


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## TimV (Oct 13, 2008)

Thanks


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## Me Died Blue (Oct 13, 2008)

satz said:


> I think the question of "can a person be born again without..." needs to be distinguished from "can a person be saved without..." as they can be asking different things depending on how one uses words. The bible uses the word 'saved' in many different ways.
> 
> I believe a person can indeed be born again without hearing of God, Jesus, the Holy Ghost or the gospel, because being born again is solely the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit without the use of any means whatsoever. In fact, not only 'can' a person be born again without hearing of any of those, but I believe the bible teaches that every single christian is in fact born again without hearing because before being born again a man or woman cannot appreciate or believe any of those things.
> 
> It is only after being born again that a person hears and believes the gospel, and learns about God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. These two steps (being 1) born again and 2)believing) are, I believe, seperate steps in salvation. One (being born again) is completely the work of the Holy Spirit all by himself. The other (believing) requires men to preach the gospel so the born again person can believe.



Actually, the "valley of dry bones" in Ezekiel 37 makes it quite clear that _regeneration_ is just as ordinarily by the Word of God as is conversion. It shows "the Word of the LORD" as the means that is used to give spiritual breath, life and flesh.


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