# Next Steps for a Terrible Christian?



## Jonathan95 (Oct 1, 2022)

I understand that it can be difficult for Christians to remain faithful in today's society. 

I was baptized in 2016, and though I have learned a great deal since then, there are still some areas of my life where I doubt.
For example, I still allow myself to be exposed to darkness and depravity through the music, shows, and people I associate with on a daily basis. While part of me feels conflicted about this behavior, it is not enough for me to make any radical changes. Additionally, it can be hard to break away from long-held beliefs
- something that has become increasingly apparent to me as time goes on. I am a terrible Christian because I do not always follow Christ's teachings. I often find myself sinning and not living up to His standards. You might think that I struggle with my faith and doubt God's existence. This is not true. I've never been more sure of the fact that the Bible is true as the Word of God. 

Overall, I am just not a very good follower of Christ. This isn't for lack of trying, but interiorly, something seems to be working against me- scripturally speaking, this would be called "the flesh". In Paul's writing on Romans 7:1-25 .
He speaks about this inner conflict in detail..and it really resonates with me. I have sinned in ways that would call for death biblically. I am currently under church 
censure and facing ex-communication. 
This means that I will likely lose my family and end up in Hell. May the Lord have mercy on me. I don't know how to change my beliefs or my behavior. 
Perhaps all this time I thought that God would be doing that from the inside out with me, but it appears I was wrong. I really do think I'm just not cut out for this lifestyle.

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## Lowlander (Oct 1, 2022)

Cry out to God for repentance, Jonathan. 

Read the Bible like your life depends on you doing it.

Cut off all ungodly influences as one would cut off his own right hand. A complete severing.

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## RamistThomist (Oct 1, 2022)

Jonathan95 said:


> This means that I will likely lose my family and end up in Hell.



Church discipline isn't supposed to send people to hell. It is to restore the brother to fellowship.

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## RaderSDG00 (Oct 1, 2022)

Be killing sin, or it will be killing you, Jonathan. Your post mirrors much of my own experience too sadly. Remember though, if you are a Christian, God has given you all the resources you need to obey Him, through Christ. Like Elijah said, cut of all those things that lead you into sin. As Thomas Brooks would say, dance not upon the brink of the pit, or it will be a just thing if you fall into it. Avoid every appearance of evil. Lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles. See into what misery your sin has brought you and resolve to battle against it with all your might. We are promised nothing less than a struggle against sin to the very end. And praise God that you are not comfortable in your sin. That means that there is yet life! I highly recommend that you read this book: https://www.amazon.com/Overcoming-T...kifQ==&sprefix=john+owen+mort,aps,548&sr=8-18
If you ever want to talk more about it, feel free to PM me

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## De Jager (Oct 1, 2022)

Jonathan95 said:


> I understand that it can be difficult for Christians to remain faithful in today's society.
> 
> I was baptized in 2016, and though I have learned a great deal since then, there are still some areas of my life where I doubt.
> For example, I still allow myself to be exposed to darkness and depravity through the music, shows, and people I associate with on a daily basis. While part of me feels conflicted about this behavior, it is not enough for me to make any radical changes. Additionally, it can be hard to break away from long-held beliefs
> ...


First of all, if you are under church discipline, what is preventing you from repenting? Repent today! Christ's forgiveness is full and free. Your repentance will not be perfect...but it starts with simply this: oh God I have sinned. Have mercy on me! Name me one person he has ever cast out who came to him in humble repentance. Admit your weakness. Tell him that you cannot shake your sin without His help. Plead for aid!


Secondly, I would encourage you to read the Canons of Dort, 5th head of doctrine. I think you will find it helpful.

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## jw (Oct 1, 2022)

My first suggestion is getting direction from the session who has care over your soul. That’s also my second suggestion. Praying for you. Flee to Christ, and that’s going best to be accomplished via the care of the shepherds of your local church that currently has understand of you, yours, and all the circumstances.

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## JimmyH (Oct 1, 2022)

In my own experience the younger you are, and the longer you've lived a sinful lifestyle, the harder it is to 'put off the old man,' and 'put on the new man.'
The fact that you are convicted over continuing in a sinful lifestyle indicates to me that you have the Spirit of Christ in you.

Of course we can grieve the Spirit, and harden our hearts the more we continue in unrepentant sin. You identify with Romans 7, many of us do. You can find the way to victory if you look for it in Romans 8.

WCF
CHAPTER XVIII.​_Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation._​IV. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it; by falling into some special sin, which woundeth the conscience, and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation; by God's withdrawing the light of his countenance and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light: yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may in due time be revived, and by the which, in the meantime, they are supported from utter despair.

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## TheInquirer (Oct 1, 2022)

If you are a Christian, you have power by the Holy Spirit to use your will in service to God rather than in service to sin. You sin because you choose to do so. You have the power to choose not to if you are born again.

Being a follower of Christ is not simply a "lifestyle" - it is a complete change of nature from the inside out. If you are not born again, you cannot live the Christian life because you do not have the power to do so. If you are born again, you have the power and are choosing not to live accordingly.

Your discipline by the church is an act of mercy by God to get your attention and give you a chance to repent and come back to Him. If you choose not to, you will be essentially given over to the power of Satan and the consequences may be horrific for you. He is a cruel and terrible master who will ruin you utterly. I have seen two people under church discipline commit suicide. This is no game. 

If you truly feared hell, you would see that your sinful lifestyle is not worth it in any shape or form. 

May God open your eyes to believe and repent and be restored to fellowship with Him and His people.

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## Stephen L Smith (Oct 1, 2022)

Jonathan, you have been given much helpful advice and I trust you find this a blessing. As others have said, fly to Christ. A you do so remember the comforting words of Isaiah 42:3 quoted in Matt 12:20
" A bruised reed He will not break,
And smoking flax He will not quench;"

The Puritan Richard Sibbes, expounding this passage says:

"What should we learn from this, but to `come boldly to the throne of grace' (Heb. 4:16) in all our grievances? Shall our sins discourage us, when he appears there only for sinners? Are you bruised? Be of good comfort, he calls you. Conceal not your wounds, open all before him and take not Satan's counsel. Go to Christ, although trembling, as the poor woman who said, `If I may but touch his garment' (Matt. 9:21). We shall be healed and have a gracious answer. Go boldly to God in our flesh; he is flesh of our flesh, and bone of our bone for this reason, that we might go boldly to him. Never fear to go to God, since we have such a Mediator with him, who is not only our friend but our brother and husband. Well might the angel proclaim from heaven, `Behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy' (Luke 2:10). Well might the apostle stir us up to `rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice' (Phil. 4:4). Paul was well advised upon what grounds he did it. Peace and joy are two main fruits of Christ's kingdom. Let the world be as it will, if we cannot rejoice in the world, yet we may rejoice in the Lord. His presence makes any condition comfortable. `Be not afraid,' says he to his disciples, when they were afraid, as if they had seen a ghost, `It is I' (Matt. 14:27), as if there were no cause of fear where he was present.

Let this support us when we feel ourselves bruised. Christ's way is first to wound, then to heal. No sound, whole soul shall ever enter into heaven. Think when in temptation, Christ was tempted for me; according to my trials will be my graces and comforts. If Christ be so merciful as not to break me, I will not break myself by despair, nor yield myself over to the roaring lion, Satan, to break me in pieces." 

May you be greatly comforted by Christ, Jonathan.

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## Before (Oct 1, 2022)

Being confident of this very thing, that* he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:*
(Php 1:6)

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence,* work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.*
(Php 2:12-13)

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## Taylor (Oct 2, 2022)

Jonathan,

It pains me greatly to read this. I read it right after you posted it last night, and I didn't know what to say. I will repeat what Josh noted above. You need to go to your elders. It may seem like they are aloof punishers, but, as Jacob said, church discipline is meant for your good. Please, go to them. Tell them you need help. I am confident they will help you. In the end, we on PB can pray for you and give you general gospel encouragements, but it is challenging to provide any actual help on such a weighty matter to someone none of us know. Your session knows you and, by God's appointment, cares for you. Go to them.

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## SolaScriptura (Oct 2, 2022)

"I really don't think I'm cut out for this lifestyle."

That's the crux of it - you think this is a "lifestyle" and that one has to be "cut out" for it. As long as the yoke of Christ is seen by you as heavy, hard, and hurtful... you will not turn from the darkness you love.

To everyone else - his words are illustrative of something I've said for years in regards to Perseverance of the Saints - and that is this - "how do I know if I'm a believer" - there's really no substitute for perseverance, since the Bible makes plain that it is possible to deceive oneself (and others) into thinking you are in right relationship with God. But perseverance is key in helping us get to the truth of it because one can only will oneself to conform to the external behavioral norms and expectations of a group for so long. Eventually, if we're deceived and we've been doing this "in the flesh" and "of ourselves" the entire time, the appeal of this so-called "lifestyle" wears off and for the one acting like a Christian, the desires of the eyes and heart prove too strong... and this kind of thing happens. Remember the words of the Apostle in 1 John 2:19, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

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## Ed Walsh (Oct 2, 2022)

Jonathan95 said:


> I understand that it can be difficult for Christians to remain faithful in today's society.
> 
> I was baptized in 2016, and though I have learned a great deal since then, there are still some areas of my life where I doubt.
> For example, I still allow myself to be exposed to darkness and depravity through the music, shows, and people I associate with on a daily basis. While part of me feels conflicted about this behavior, it is not enough for me to make any radical changes. Additionally, it can be hard to break away from long-held beliefs
> ...



Jonathan Jonathan,

I can only tell you this. That if you are a true Son of God. For you do not have to be all that obedient and still be a true Son of God. However, you'll never have the peace and joy promised you. And although you're pretty sure of the truth of the Gospel, you will never enjoy that truth because you can never have full assurance of faith.

[By the way, I only have about 2 minutes to finish this because I have to get ready for church. So don't worry about typos and spelling, please. I'm just dictating this into my tablet.]

Let me continue for a minute or two.

One, to the extent you continue to sin, to that extent, God will show you his love. He will show it to you by chasing you. His chastening, or whipping, if you will. It will always be a lot less than you, and I deserve. I had a great beginning as a Christian. Or so I've been told. And I loved the praise of men. I thought I was pretty hot stuff. I taught the Bible in Sunday School classes and was an elder in my church. My church even wanted to send me to seminary. But I was proud. So, after about 20 years of prideful "service" to God, God took my life apart, piece by piece. I lost almost everything. I haven't seen my eldest son in 22 years. I lost my reputation in the church. I nearly lost my wife. But, eventually, things began to change. Now I do praise the God of Heaven, for He is able to humble the pride of man. I now have full Assurance of faith and then often visited by the beautiful, wonderful, and often terrified at the same time, presence of God. I even have a prayer answered once in a while. But not that often. Well, now back to you.

About ex-communication.
Excommunication is kind of an act of tough love. Paul once called it a delivering one unto Satan. That sounds pretty terrible. But it was done with the hope that it would lead to his salvation. Possibly his last hope. Look up a post I made that was not a big hit. As I recall, I got no response at all. Look it up. Look up Matthew 18 by member Ed Walsh. If you can't find it, ask me. Matthew 18 is the chapter many people call the chapter on church discipline. I contend that that is 100%, scratch that, 90% wrong. It is a chapter on love, Grace, forgiveness, patience hoping for the best as taught by the Lord Jesus himself. It's closer to 1st Corinthians 13 and then it is to a chapter on church discipline.

I do have to run, so think about some of the things I've tried to say. If you want to talk to me at some point just start a conversation and ask what you will and I'll see if there's any way I can warn and help to encourage you.

If you're a Christian God loves you way too much to let you get away with in life as you described above. Oh to be sure you have a dark heart. But I can almost guarantee you it is not 1/10 as dark as mine. Or if it is I almost hope you'll never find out how bad you really are. All of us, certainly including Christians, have enough remaining darkness in us, even after our salvation to make as bad a devil as the Devil himself.

I hope any typos or words didn't get so messed up as to change the meaning. But I hope you'll get the gist. Got to go.

Your brother, (in more ways than you can imagine)

Ed Walsh

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## TylerRay (Oct 2, 2022)

Jonathan95 said:


> While part of me feels conflicted about this behavior, it is not enough for me to make any radical changes.
> 
> I am a terrible Christian because I do not always follow Christ's teachings.
> 
> ...


Jonathan,
The statements that I have excerpted from your post are all indicative of one fundamental and fatal misunderstanding of the doctrine of the Christian life. You have not understood the difference between legal obedience and evangelical obedience.

*I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. - John 15:5*

You can do *nothing*. You have no strength to overcome your sins or to obey God. It's not in you. No amount of confronting yourself with the law of God or the duty of a Christian can make you holy. *The law cannot make you holy*. It can show you your sin, and condemn your sin, but it has no power to help you overcome sin. Note that I am talking about Christians in particular here. *The law cannot make a Christian holy*.

How, then, is a Christian sanctified? Only by trusting in Christ. Sanctification is an aspect of how Christ saves us from our sins. Your sanctification is part of what Christ purchased for you on the cross. Do you believe that Christ died for you? If so, believe that he has purchased sanctification for you, and ask him to save you from your actual sins, in time and expereince.

To abide in Christ is to trust in him. When God saves a Christian, he ingrafts him into Christ, and implants a principle of faith (sometimes called _habitual faith_) in the Christian. In this sense, the Christian always is in Christ, and always has faith. However, as the quote from John 15 indicates, there is another sense in which a Christian can fail to *abide in Christ*. Just as we are ingrafted into Christ by the implanting of _habitual faith_, we experientially abide in Christ through the active exercise of _actual faith._ *Abiding in Christ by faith is the secret to sanctification--to bearing fruit*.

Paul says in Col 2:6, "As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, _so_ walk ye in him." But how do we walk in him? He tells you in the next verse: "Rooted and built up in him [abiding in him], and stablished in the *faith*, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving."

The new man is strengthened by abiding in Christ. Trust in the promises of Christ for your sanctification, and in the efficacy of his death to purchase your sanctification, and you will grow. Apart from him, you can do nothing. 

Striving to obey apart from trusting in Christ to save you from your sins is a form of legalism--it's known as legal obedience, or legal striving--and there's no gospel in it. It is possible to trust in Christ for your justification without trusting in him for your sanctification. To do so is to live after the flesh.

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." - Rom 8:13.

I don't need to tell you about the importance of repentance or of obedience. You've testified to that in your post. My aim is to tell you the gospel way of effectual repentance through faith, resulting in true obedience, rooted and grounded in Christ.

I leave you with a quote from John Owen.
"Set faith at work on Christ for the killing of thy sin. His blood is the great sovereign remedy for sin-sick souls. Live in this, and thou wilt die a conqueror; yea, thou wilt, through the good providence of God, live to see thy lust dead at thy feet."


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## PuritanCovenanter (Oct 2, 2022)

Jonathan, As a Layman and a person who has suffered a lot from my own sinfulness and hopelessness just remember...

Pro 24:16 For a righteous man falleth seven times, and riseth up again; But the wicked are overthrown by calamity. 

The next two verses are mainstays for me. They have taught me to trust God even when I didn't want to hear my Elders. 
(Hebrews 13:7) Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

(Hebrews 13:17) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

I would encourage you to trust God. Sometimes you need to break away from sin and sometimes that includes people. 

1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. KJV

1Co 15:33 Do not be deceived: “Bad company ruins good morals.” 
1Co 15:34 Wake up from your drunken stupor, as is right, and do not go on sinning. For some have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame. ESV

There is a level of maturity that is needed in particular crowds. I had to cut out friendships with people I knew for many years because temptation emotionally was too hard for me to overcome. When I was with them I was emotionally tied to these people by the things we did together. That is a tough cookie to handle. I had to cut out sin. Christ has kept me even when I wasn't seeing him work for over 40 years now. I am still working on resting in Him. I am able to be in those crowds now. I have deep friendships with the people I described as the ones I had to cut off now. But it took years of maturing in Christ before I was able to have those friendships again. But believe me living in sin is harder. Sin is a fun taskmaster but it has a price of destruction. 

Be Encouraged

Listen to your Elders 
God gives grace to feed life and not death.


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## Zach (Oct 2, 2022)

Jonathan,

Like Taylor, I read your post last night and didn't and still don't really know what to say to you. The only thought that keeps coming back to me is that there is no such thing as a terrible Christian, there are only Christians, whose sins are all forgiven, who are righteous in Christ, and who are dearly loved children of God even when they struggle badly with their flesh and fall into serious sin, and there are non-Christians, whether they are moral or immoral in their lifestyle. I don't know which of those two you are, but your Elders are trying to get your attention to their concern that you are not a terrible Christian but may not be a Christian at all. Please listen to them and hear the voice of the Good Shepherd in their shepherding of your soul. Please go to them ask for their help to walk with them as they walk with him and as they try to help you walk with him. Jesus loves sinners. Jesus loves you. Jesus died for sinners, really bad sinners whose sins call for death. He died so that you don't have to. You might lose everything else, but he will never lose you.

Love,
Zach Siggins

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## Jonathan95 (Oct 2, 2022)

I must be honest with myself, and with God. Lately, I have been feeling very uncertain about my faith. I don't know if I can continue to believe in something that seems so abstract and impersonal. 

Christianity has always felt like a set of rules to follow. And lately, even following the rules has become difficult and burdensome. I find myself increasingly resentful of being told what to do, and yearning for the freedom to live how I feel like i need to in order to survive my day to day life. The thought of spending more years of my life under someone else's rule, without understanding why, is maddening.

The worst part is that I know all of this is wrong. As a Christian man, I am called to submit myself humbly to God's will and trust in His plan for my life - even when it isn't easy or convenient. But lately it feels like that submission is becoming harder and harder, as doubt slowly begins creeping into my heart.

Please pray for my soul during these days. I know not what lies ahead.

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## Polanus1561 (Oct 2, 2022)

How is your marriage?


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## dhh712 (Oct 2, 2022)

I'm so sorry for your pain my dear brother. Our struggle with sin sure is a relentless one and the devil will seek out all means of attacking us. Dear one, you know there is no hope in this world, that the only hope there is is in Jesus. The passing pleasures of worldly things will end so swiftly with our lives; then eternity awaits. Like others have said, turn to Jesus in repentance. We all fall short of the standards which God demands, but because the debt has been paid by his beloved Son's sacrifice he always welcomes us back to him with open arms and joyfully receives us when we confess our transgressions. 

If I may ask you, what means of grace are you utilizing and are you in daily practice of them? It would seem to me that the best way to mortify the flesh is to seek to know our Lord Jesus better--by doing such things as praying and reading God's word. For me it also helps immensely to read books that elucidate the character of our Triune God. "Gentle and Lowly" and "A Shepherd Looks at the Lord's Prayer" provided me with immeasurable help in getting a better understanding of the persons of Jesus, Our Heavenly Father and the Holy Spirit. 

I pray you will find rest in Jesus and hope so much that you will come back here and tell us about how much he has comforted you.

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## De Jager (Oct 2, 2022)

Jonathan95 said:


> I must be honest with myself, and with God. Lately, I have been feeling very uncertain about my faith. I don't know if I can continue to believe in something that seems so abstract and impersonal.
> 
> Christianity has always felt like a set of rules to follow. And lately, even following the rules has become difficult and burdensome. I find myself increasingly resentful of being told what to do, and yearning for the freedom to live how I feel like i need to in order to survive my day to day life. The thought of spending more years of my life under someone else's rule, without understanding why, is maddening.
> 
> ...



Jonathan,

A couple of things. Firstly, everyone who is a Christian has at time felt that God is abstract and impersonal. This struggle is not unique to you. There are a number of Psalms that echo this exact sentiment. It is oftentimes the case that someone feels far from God because of sin that has not been properly dealt with. Your opening post leads me to believe that this is exactly the case with you. Please don't play games by saying "I don't think I can believe in something that seems so abstract and impersonal" while at the same time confessing that you are living in unrepentant sin and under church discipline. This is not honest, this is making excuses. This is not a game, this is deadly serious business. There are countless people throughout history who apostatize and say that they no longer believe the Bible, can't believe in God, etc. when in reality they simply want to live a life of debauchery and they have to get rid of God in order to accomplish that.

If Christianity feels to you like a bunch of rules to follow in order to be in God's good books, you have very much veered off course. 

_"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Galatians 3:1-3)_

Jonathan, how does one become a Christian? Is it by doing good works? You know the answer is no. So how does one continue in the life of faith? Is it by a rigid asceticism, a beating oneself into submission and trying to do the law of God in the power of the flesh? NO! The Christian life is lived in the POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, and in that way ONLY. You CANNOT follow God on your own strength. You CANNOT do his will on your own strength. Every good thing we do is only done through the Holy Spirit, in Christ. So if you are trying in your own strength to live the Christian life, it is totally appropriate and inevitable that you will feel worn out, discouraged, and considering quitting.

Now, with regards to quitting, i.e. apostasy: Jonathan, you are a baptized person. The mark of God's covenant is on you and you can never take it off. That covenant contains blessings and curses of which you will partake in, either the blessings or the curses. There are millions of baptized people in hell, as we speak, with God's covenant mark still upon them. Their punishment is that much worse than the pagan who never so much as heard of Jesus Christ. It is much worse to walk away from God's covenant than to never be in it in the first place. 

_"And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:24-31)_

I urge you to meditate on these words from Hebrews. Did you go to church today? That is the first step to avoiding apostasy. From your original post you talk about being under church discipline. Did you go there today? Did you talk to your elders? I truly hope that you have written and corresponded much more with the elders who are in charge of your soul than you have here. I truly hope this is the case. What you are dealing with cannot be fully solved on the internet. If this post has come across as harsh, it is not intended in that way. I will confess however, I think someone needs to talk some sense into you. If you lived close to me, I would invite you into my home, share a meal with you, read scripture together and pray. So please don't think I am being insensitive. But I truly believe you are living in a precarious, dangerous moment, and I really don't think you understand what you're dealing with. Others have said it and I'll say it again: you must talk to your elders about this. MUST.

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## Jonathan95 (Oct 2, 2022)

@De Jager 

You have given me much to work with, I thank you. I would like to hone in on something you have stated: 

"There are countless people throughout history who apostatize and say that they no longer believe the Bible, can't believe in God, etc. when in reality they simply want to live a life of debauchery and they have to get rid of God in order to accomplish that." 

I do feel that this is something I need to work through. I have heard numerous times that people who leave the faith do so because they want to sin and not be held accountable. I have always harbored some resentment towards that statement because it seems like an easy way to sweep things under the rug instead of working through them. 

But in all honesty, I think there is truth to what you're saying. In my case, I know that part of the reason why Christianity has begun to feel more like a set of rules than a life-giving relationship is that there are areas of my life where I am not living according to God's will. And instead of repenting and turning from those things, I find myself wanting to justify them and hold on to them tighter. 

Take my drug use as one of many examples I could give; I have been using drugs for about 2 months now. It has been helpful with shame and anxiety and helpful with overlooking things and dealing with hard circumstances. And as my drug use has increased, so has the shame and guilt I feel whenever I step foot in a church. It seems like everywhere I turn there are whispers of judgment and condemnation. Not from people, necessarily, but from God himself. It feels like he is constantly saying "you must repent, you are not measuring up". This only leads me to believe that maybe Christianity isn't for me. 
Maybe it's not something I'm supposed to be a part of anymore because clearly I'm not doing it right if all it does is make me feel bad about myself all the time. Instead of repenting, I find myself wanting to run away from it all. But at the same time, there is a part of me that wants to hold on. That wants to keep fighting my different urges. Maybe there is something more to this life than what I'm currently experiencing. 

So thank you for your input, Izaak. It has given me much to chew on.


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## Barney (Oct 3, 2022)

Jonathan95 said:


> @De Jager
> 
> You have given me much to work with, I thank you. I would like to hone in on something you have stated:
> 
> ...


Hi Jonathan,
I'm sorry to hear about your difficulties. I don't know how you feel but I have an idea.
Much has been written on this thread so forgive me for asking something that you've already stated.
Were you born in 95'?
Someone stated that he thought some sins can be harder to put away when someone is younger. I think that can be true but it's still possible to overcome sin and we shouldn't use that as an excuse not to stay in the battle. 
With Calvinism's TULIP the P is for perseverance of the Saints. In the Reformed faith God calls believers, a believer doesn't decide he's going to be a Christian. 
And so if you truly believe, I don't believe you can walk away from Christianity completely. 
Regarding drugs, I had a broken home life and my sinful nature was influenced by my environment and culture of where I lived. I was messed up and took different drugs for many years. By God's grace I was born again at 30 years old. It wasn't easy getting completely off all drugs.
My dad has some good qualities and he always said don't go boozing, it's a mugs game. I believe the same is true of drugs and all mind altering substances. It's been said you don't mature emotionally while on drink and drugs and there's certainly some truth there. 
Also the world the flesh and the devil can say it's a disease and we're never going to be completely free. But the Bible says it's sin and we can completely conquer it. I am completely free of any desire for drugs by God's grace.
There's been some really really good things written on this thread and I'll come back and mull over it. 
Thank you so much for your honesty. I'm sure it will help others, even those who have sin in other areas.

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## Ed Walsh (Oct 3, 2022)

Jonathan95 said:


> It seems like everywhere I turn there are whispers of judgment and condemnation. Not from people, necessarily, but from God himself. It feels like he is constantly saying "you must repent, you are not measuring up". This only leads me to believe that maybe Christianity isn't for me.



Jonathan Jonathan,

I can assure you that these voices you attribute to God are your conscience and not God. God creates the conscience, but it knows only one thing, "you broke the law; lawbreakers must change or die." That's all they know how to do. Nobody's ever saved by listening to their conscience. How well you listen to your conscience or perhaps hardness so that it hardly even works anymore does impact how you will spend eternity. But the eternity, whether the stripes be many or few, will always be hell. (Romans 2:12-16)

Even when somebody becomes a true Christian, their dutiful conscience can give him some trouble for at least a time.

[An Aside -- Many find fault with Pilgrim's Progress because Christian, after he became one, carried his burden (the guilt of sin) on his back for so long. They say that's not what the gospel is like. But I've been reading - Bunyan's autobiographical work, Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners, written before Pilgrim's Progress. Bunyan tells a harrowing tale of how long it was before he could "put down his burden." Now I understand both John Bunyan, and his main character, Christian, in Pilgrim's Progress. If you have never read Pilgrim's Progress from beginning to end, I encourage you to do so.]

Okay, back to the conscience.
The conscience has been the ruler and arbiter of right and wrong in you for so long that it refuses to give up its post without being ordered to by its Commander in Chief, God himself and His Spirit working in you to enable you to believe something contrary to every fiber of your being and every experience you've had all your life. You'd think salvation was impossible when you know yourself. But, as Jesus reassured his apostles, "the things that are impossible with man are possible with God."

For sure, Jesus said often, and in this order, "repent and believe the Gospel." This two-word-ordered combination became a summary of the whole gospel. Don't get me wrong; repentance is absolutely necessary for one to be a Christian. But I think Jesus, like many great preachers after him, knew full well that they, through the Word and the work of the Spirit, must destroy your hope in self-Salvation. But to say you are "not measuring up," it's not the voice of God.

God's way is more like, you are dead in your trespasses and sins, and I'm here to tell you that you will be condemned unless you find Me, the Fountain of Life, as your way out--as the only way for hope and salvation. And if your heart is worked on by the spirit and you become aware of your helplessness and hopelessness before a holy God. Then and only then are you ready to hear the rest of God's message. It often goes something like this:

Matthew 11:28-30​Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavily laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. (Here's the ESV - Matthew 11:28-30 ESV)​
Jonathan, (and pay attention)

I have no idea how sinful your life has become or how serious the drugs are, etc. But you used some pretty strong words against yourself. Sometimes a true Christian with a sensitive conscience will exaggerate in his own mind just how sinful he is acting. I hope this is true in your case. But taking you at face value for what you say, I need to ask you, given what you profess to be true in your case, on what basis do you have any hope that you are a true Christian?

Jesus talked a lot about the opposites of darkness and light. Do you know who else was famous for that? The Apostle John. So here's an assignment. With as much honesty as you can muster, and that includes asking, no, begging God to help to be serious and honest, I want you to read through the book of First John. The whole book. At least once before you offer any answer to yourself about whether you are, or are not yet, a true Son of God.

I'm not saying I have any idea or made a judgment in your case, but I am saying that you cannot know you are a Christian while living as you say you are. Period.

I'm not sure why anybody would want to talk to me, but the offer is still open for you to write to me privately. Or we can set up a time to talk on the phone together.

Ed

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## pgwolv (Oct 3, 2022)

Jonathan95 said:


> I was baptized in 2016


Think about why you were baptized. You need a Saviour, and He saves all those who repent and believe. From what do you need to repent? Is your need for drugs or other things greater than your need for a Saviour?


Jonathan95 said:


> I am a terrible Christian because I do not always follow Christ's teachings.


Think about why you want to follow "Christ's teachings." Is it because you see it as good advice, or because you want to listen to what He tells you as your Prophet, receive what He gives you as your Priest, do what He says as your King? The time for salvation is NOW. Realise that the things you are busy with are darkness; they only bring death and destruction. Rom 13: "11 Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. 12 The night is far gone; the day is at hand. So then let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light."


Jonathan95 said:


> Overall, I am just not a very good follower of Christ. This isn't for lack of trying, but interiorly, something seems to be working against me- scripturally speaking, this would be called "the flesh". In Paul's writing on Romans 7:1-25.


But what does Paul say? Rom 7: "24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!" Christ is the one who can save you from your body of death. He is even now interceding for every one of His children. Follow Paul's advice in Php 2: "12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." God is sovereign even over your will; ask Him to bring it into submission to His will.

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## De Jager (Oct 3, 2022)

Jonathan95 said:


> @De Jager
> 
> You have given me much to work with, I thank you. I would like to hone in on something you have stated:
> 
> ...



This voice you are hearing isn't God. God would say something like this:

_"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." (Romans 6:1-4)

"This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief." (1 Timothy 1:15)_

We don't repent in order to measure up! We repent because we don't want to offend someone who has given so much to us. It's an entirely different motivation. Imagine you saw a little kid playing on the railroad tracks with a train coming. You ran and pulled the kid off the tracks. Then the next day he goes back the railroad tracks...except this time to the tracks right in front of your house, where you can see him from your front window. Would you not be offended at this? Even so, when you take drugs, think of the fact that Jesus Christ hung on the cross for this kind of thing and it was not pretty. Does this not motivate you to put that sin to death? If it does not, pray to the Holy Spirit for help that it would.

And again, I will ask the question: did you go to church yesterday? Did you talk to your elders?


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## Andres (Oct 3, 2022)

Speak to your session, the God-ordained spiritual authority over you.

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## Jonathan95 (Oct 3, 2022)

@De Jager 

Yes, I did go to church that day. And yes, I did talk to my elders. They are dedicated to helping me through this process of repentance for better or worse. So thank you for your prayers and please continue to pray for me as I am going through this difficult time.

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## Elizabeth (Oct 4, 2022)

Jonathan, I was listening to this excellent sermon this morning, and the Lord brought you to my mind. It might be worth a listen in your situation: https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=51318234434


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## DanSSwing (Oct 4, 2022)

RaderSDG00 said:


> Be killing sin, or it will be killing you, Jonathan. Your post mirrors much of my own experience too sadly. Remember though, if you are a Christian, God has given you all the resources you need to obey Him, through Christ. Like Elijah said, cut of all those things that lead you into sin. As Thomas Brooks would say, dance not upon the brink of the pit, or it will be a just thing if you fall into it. Avoid every appearance of evil. Lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles. See into what misery your sin has brought you and resolve to battle against it with all your might. We are promised nothing less than a struggle against sin to the very end. And praise God that you are not comfortable in your sin. That means that there is yet life! I highly recommend that you read this book: https://www.amazon.com/Overcoming-Temptation-Redesign-John-Owen/dp/1433550083/ref=sr_1_18?crid=2MQK8OD0CYKUI&keywords=john+owen+mortification+of+sin&qid=1664669716&qu=eyJxc2MiOiIzLjQwIiwicXNhIjoiMy4wOCIsInFzcCI6IjMuMDkifQ==&sprefix=john+owen+mort,aps,548&sr=8-18
> If you ever want to talk more about it, feel free to PM me


I just wanted to echo the recommendation for John Owen's "The Mortification of Sin." This book is a game-changer.

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## CovenantPatriot87 (Oct 6, 2022)

To me it sounds like you have a "putting on" issue. You have put off the old but not "put on" the new. What people do you associate with everyday as you have said? Are they from Work? School? Neighbors? Somewhere else? Are there any church brethren you can suround yourself with? A lot of the battle is finding pious good people to be around.


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## pgwolv (Oct 6, 2022)

CovenantPatriot87 said:


> To me it sounds like you have a "putting on" issue. You have put off the old but not "put on" the new. What people do you associate with everyday as you have said? Are they from Work? School? Neighbors? Somewhere else? Are there any church brethren you can suround yourself with? A lot of the battle is finding pious good people to be around.


Exactly; that's where Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous get it right, even though they're not Christian organisations. Christians need encouragement, good examples, and accountability. We're Sinners Identified


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## C4MERON (Oct 6, 2022)

CovenantPatriot87 said:


> To me it sounds like you have a "putting on" issue. You have put off the old but not "put on" the new. What people do you associate with everyday as you have said? Are they from Work? School? Neighbors? Somewhere else? Are there any church brethren you can suround yourself with? A lot of the battle is finding pious good people to be around.



“And instead of repenting and turning from those things, I find myself wanting to justify them and hold on to them tighter. 
Take my drug use as one of many examples I could give; I have been using drugs for about 2 months now. It has been helpful with shame and anxiety and helpful with overlooking things”

*This doesn’t sound like an awful lot of ‘putting off’. *

Jonathan,
There has been a lot of good advice given from many posts above. It’s clear there is deep concern for you. This is deadly serious and must be said frankly, with love and grace. You need to be resolved in your mind that to continue in sin is to put your eternal soul in peril. You either forsake your sin and turn to Christ or perish. See, essentially what is happening is that you are buying into the lie that your sin (drug-taking and/or whatever else you know to be of a sinful pattern in your life) is more satisfying than that Pearl of Great Price, Jesus Christ. I think you need to re-acquaint yourself with the holiness of God and the sinfulness of sin and re-acquaint yourself with the loveliness of Christ (to mention 3 books!). 
As has been often mentioned above, it is imperative that you liase with your kirk session and submit to the spiritual authority they have over you. This is life and death.

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## Stephen L Smith (Oct 6, 2022)

C4MERON said:


> kirk


For the benefit of people outside the UK, kirk is the Scottish name for church

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## pgwolv (Oct 7, 2022)

Stephen L Smith said:


> For the benefit of people outside the UK, kirk is the Scottish name for church


It's easy for Afrikaners as well, it's "kerk" in Afrikaans


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## Stephen L Smith (Oct 7, 2022)

pgwolv said:


> It's easy for Afrikaners as well, it's "kerk" in Afrikaans


Yes when I was travelling around South Africa a few years ago I drove past a few Kerk's  

The Evangelical Reformed Church of the Westminster Confession of Austria and Switzerland, on their website in German, uses Kirche.


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## DanSSwing (Oct 8, 2022)

I thought a kirk session was:

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## LadyCalvinist (Oct 9, 2022)

Jonathan, Jonathan, much Godly advice has been given to you, please listen to it. You need to read the Bible carefully and prayerfully. Above all else, hold onto Christ, because Christ is everything.


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