# Book-table at church (for selling books): right or wrong?



## Tim

Every once in a while, I attend a church that has a table set up to display books for sale. I am speaking of when this occurs on the Lord's Day. 

I can't help thinking of this verse:


> Mat 21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves...(KJV)



What about selling CD's of sermons (to be fair, usually at cost)? What about having a communal meal and everyone chips in for the price of the food (again just for the cost)?


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## larryjf

Buying and selling on the Lord's Day is sacrilege, desecrating the day that is to be sanctified.
When it's done within the walls of the church it's even more odious.


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## Kevin

Providing religious material to believers on the Lord's Day is not "buying & selling", in my opinion.

What is prohibited is commerce, not donating, or refunding the cost of books, food, or any other expense.

The money changers were engages in a commercial enterprise of selling coins & animals for offerings & sacrifices.

If you entered a church that only accepted a proprietary form of currency as an offering & you could only buy it from them at a userous exchange rate, then you would have a situation that was similar to that condemned by Christ.

Simply accepting the cost of a few devotional, or educational books is not even similar.


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## BobVigneault

Kevin,
the money changers and salesfolks WERE providing 'religious' material to be used in worship.

How can you say, "Simply accepting the cost of a few devotional, or educational books is not even similar " without any argument from scripture or the confessions? 

Back up and try again brother.


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## Scott1

> What about selling CD's of sermons (to be fair, usually at cost)?



Great question on how we can be fully faithful to the Fourth Commandment and not fall into presumptuous sin.

On first thought, it seems okay to leave the worship service and pick up a sermon on cassette or CD on a donation-only basis (that is, take one for free or contribute $2 to defray cost of reproduction). Commerce is not really based on a donation only basis (including "free") and it would seem this is a work of piety, allowed as an exception to keeping the sabbath. Not to extend this too far logically, but it might be the only way someone sick at home, or a "shut in" can hear the worship service sermon.

Maybe the highest possible road, not possibly causing anyone to stumble, is to only give them out free (which is what my church does), understanding that it must come from the church's ministry budget alone. Nothing is really free. But I don't think it would be a per se sabbath violation to distribute not-for-profit biblical materials Lord's Day.


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## Kevin

My point was that it is a difference in kind.

The money changers were engaged in commerce. This how they made their living. It was a job. They sold animals at a profit. They exchanged money for temple coins at a huge profit.

Unless I misunderstood Tim's question this is not a Mega-church/shopping mall operating a for profit bookstore on Sunday.

Since I am not making an argument for commerce on the Lord's Day, I have nothing to back up (In my humble opinion).

In my view people dropping a few coins in a cup next to the coffee pot is no different then, taking turns bringing the sugar & cream on Sunday. However opperating a franchised coffee shop in the lobby (as one local church does) is a huge difference.


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## BobVigneault

Thanks for qualifying what you meant by similar Kevin. Well said.


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## JTDyck

I agree with Kevin. There is a way to do this discreetly without big signs and cash registers.

We don't currently have a book table, but when we did we would place a small envelope into each book with the title and the amount written on it. This amount was our cost or less. Anyone who wanted a book would place the money in the envelope and put it in a box. They were free to do this at their own discretion. It was done entirely on the honour system. If someone wanted to take the book home on the Lord's Day and put the money in the box on Wednesday night or some other time, no problem.

This also gives it more of a ministry aspect. We did not have anyone designated to monitor the table to make sure the books are accounted for. If someone needs the book and is unable to pay, so be it. It is a ministry.


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## Kevin

Notice what is listed just under the Sunday Service info on the page of this church, 

Moncton Wesleyan

Yes they do. A Tim Hortons in the church.


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## Herald

I have to lean in Kevin's direction. Many churches provide some free resources. A person who wants a CD of a sermon is asked to pay for the _cost _of the CD. I see no sacrilege in having them drop off payment for the CD on the Lord's Day. If their conscience is bothered they can make payment during the midweek service or mail it in.


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## ColdSilverMoon

Kevin said:


> My point was that it is a difference in kind.
> 
> The money changers were engaged in commerce. This how they made their living. It was a job. They sold animals at a profit. They exchanged money for temple coins at a huge profit.
> 
> Unless I misunderstood Tim's question this is not a Mega-church/shopping mall operating a for profit bookstore on Sunday.
> 
> Since I am not making an argument for commerce on the Lord's Day, I have nothing to back up (In my humble opinion).
> 
> In my view people dropping a few coins in a cup next to the coffee pot is no different then, taking turns bringing the sugar & cream on Sunday. However opperating a franchised coffee shop in the lobby (as one local church does) is a huge difference.



I agree with Kevin. Engaging in commerce for personal (or even church) profit is wrong, but supplying edifying material with the monetary exchange only covering the cost of the material itself seems perfectly acceptable to me. Our church has a book table, and it is the best Reformed book store in New York, in my opinion, and only operates on Sundays after church. What a loss it would be if they shut it down....


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## Tim

Do you think "profit vs. non-profit" has any bearing here?

One time, I attended John MacArthur preaching at a church in Victoria, BC, Canada, on a Sunday night. After the service, there were "miles" of tables selling every one of his commentaries and topical books. Perhaps this is "non-profit". 

But what if you have the local Christian book distributor, who has a "presence" at the church. Perhaps it is that one of the owner/operators attends that church and is permitted to set up the book table. It seems likely that this is "for profit", because someone makes a living through this business.



-----Added 12/15/2008 at 10:22:33 EST-----



Kevin said:


> Notice what is listed just under the Sundy Service info on the page of this church,
> 
> Moncton Wesleyan
> 
> Yes they do. A Tim Hortons in the church.



Oh, that is _so_ Eastern Canadian.


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## FenderPriest

Just a note on Jesus' cleansing of the temple text that is cited here. I'm not sure I would apply it to book/media tables in church. Jesus cleansed the temple twice (the first time in John 2, and the second time - as quoted - Matt. 21/Mark 11/Luke 19). What seems to be the issue here is people's obedience to Law regarding temple worship and profiting off the worship of God. In these cases (especially John 2), it seems to me that they were doing both of these in that the outer courts of the temple were for non-Jews to worship - not buying and selling, and profiting off God's worship. I'm not sure I would apply these texts to book/audio tables because it would imply a temple worship grid upon the purpose and use of a building. Do we have a physical inner court, second court, and outer court? It's my impression from Hebrews 9 and 10 that these physical things have been done away with. Thus, a book table is no longer in the "courts of the temple" because there is no physical place for such a location in a church building/rented space because it's A) been done away with since Jesus is the true temple now, and B) there is no distinction of rights in accessing God within God's people, thus no need for tiers of worship rights represented in the three courts system. 

Further, as has been noted, good church practice is to have the books/media only "bought" at cost value (or at the church's loss in some cases). Thus, the church is not profiting off of the worship of God, but it may be seen rather to be a service to the people of God in helping them worship God through a growth in understanding and application of the grace of the Gospel provided in the material.

These are my thoughts on the issue. I may be completely wrong in some places - so please feel free to correct me.

Yours,
~Jacob


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## larryjf

Kevin said:


> Since I am not making an argument for commerce on the Lord's Day, I have nothing to back up (In my humble opinion).
> 
> In my view people dropping a few coins in a cup next to the coffee pot is no different then, taking turns bringing the sugar & cream on Sunday. However opperating a franchised coffee shop in the lobby (as one local church does) is a huge difference.



If you define commerce as exchanging goods for money, then i don't see how that wouldn't be commerce.

Bringing cream for coffee is sharing your resources....buying a devotion is commerce.


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## Tim

FenderPriest said:


> What seems to be the issue here is people's obedience to Law regarding temple worship and profiting off the worship of God. In these cases (especially John 2), it seems to me that they were doing both of these in that the outer courts of the temple were for non-Jews to worship - not buying and selling, and profiting off God's worship.



Thanks for bringing into this discussion the other account of this cleansing:



> Joh 2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
> Joh 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
> Joh 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.



Wasn't it that the vendors were making a profit from selling animals to be sacrificed? So, I agree, it doesn't seem to be exactly the same as a book table. 

The other way to come at this would be to decide whether engaging in commerce violates the Fourth Commandment. Because commerce is work.


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## larryjf

I also don't see how paying someone for something on the Lord's Day fits into: necessity, mercy, or worship ... unless you are paying for a needed doctor's visit or something.

Nothing that can be purchased on the back table can be a need, it wouldn't be mercy as devotionals don't really show mercy to anyone, and it wouldn't be worship as we don't need devotionals to worship...although a devotion can help in our worship.
If someone wants to help others in worship by putting out devotionals, they should do so freely....i can't see any other source of helping our worship being paid for. Could you imagine if we were asked to give a contribution for the copyrighted praise songs that we sang during service? What about a voluntary cover-charge to get into the church building?...after all, there's a cost to having the building as well.


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## BJClark

Tim;



> Every once in a while, I attend a church that has a table set up to display books for sale. I am speaking of when this occurs on the Lord's Day.



I'm curious are the tables ONLY set up on the Lords Day or are they there everyday where people could go any time to purchase the books? And does that make a difference?

That is what our church does, the table is there ALL the time..so that people can come in any day and make a purchase, not just the Lords Day.


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## Kevin

For the record,

I have book's & Bibles available every Sunday in 2 churches.

ESV & NKJ paperback complete bibles, Banner of Truth booklets, Seeing & Savoring Jesus Christ (Piper), Spurgeon, SC, French Bibles, and other French litt. etc.

I do not charge for any of them. In fact I make it clear at every opportunity that the is NO COST. This morning I just paid off a $1000+ credit card bill for books & bibles to give away. This year I will end up giving out over 500 Bibles & christian books to people at no cost.

So far, I have recieved gifts from people that exceed the cost of the books that I have given out. In other words, I can not give bibles away fast enough to keep up with the money that God has provided to fund this ministry.

PTL


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## ColdSilverMoon

larryjf said:


> Kevin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since I am not making an argument for commerce on the Lord's Day, I have nothing to back up (In my humble opinion).
> 
> In my view people dropping a few coins in a cup next to the coffee pot is no different then, taking turns bringing the sugar & cream on Sunday. However opperating a franchised coffee shop in the lobby (as one local church does) is a huge difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you define commerce as exchanging goods for money, then i don't see how that wouldn't be commerce.
> 
> Bringing cream for coffee is sharing your resources....buying a devotion is commerce.
Click to expand...


This is getting in to semantics. If you strictly define commerce as exchanging money for goods, then I would argue that a book table is an acceptable form of commerce. But I think any reasonable person can distinguish between providing a service (ie, good Christian books for no profit) and setting up a business enterprise that exploits the Lord's Day and His people.


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## Tim

BJClark said:


> Tim;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Every once in a while, I attend a church that has a table set up to display books for sale. I am speaking of when this occurs on the Lord's Day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm curious are the tables ONLY set up on the Lords Day or are they there everyday where people could go any time to purchase the books? And does that make a difference?
> 
> That is what our church does, the table is there ALL the time..so that people can come in any day and make a purchase, not just the Lords Day.
Click to expand...


I am not really referring to any specific church, as I have seen this many places. I think that usually the book table is there because it is convenient. It's likely that there would be opportunity to purchase books at some other location (i.e., the store, or someone's home-office) in the neighborhood during the week.


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## larryjf

ColdSilverMoon said:


> larryjf said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kevin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since I am not making an argument for commerce on the Lord's Day, I have nothing to back up (In my humble opinion).
> 
> In my view people dropping a few coins in a cup next to the coffee pot is no different then, taking turns bringing the sugar & cream on Sunday. However opperating a franchised coffee shop in the lobby (as one local church does) is a huge difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you define commerce as exchanging goods for money, then i don't see how that wouldn't be commerce.
> 
> Bringing cream for coffee is sharing your resources....buying a devotion is commerce.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is getting in to semantics. If you strictly define commerce as exchanging money for goods, then I would argue that a book table is an acceptable form of commerce. But I think any reasonable person can distinguish between providing a service (ie, good Christian books for no profit) and setting up a business enterprise that exploits the Lord's Day and His people.
Click to expand...


o.k....but let's talk a bit further about exploiting the Lord's Day. If we are to keep the day in worship, need, and mercy...how do we excuse paying for materials (even if it's not for profit).
Would it be o.k. for someone to by a car as long as no profit was being made on the Lord's Day?


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## FenderPriest

Tim said:


> FenderPriest said:
> 
> 
> 
> What seems to be the issue here is people's obedience to Law regarding temple worship and profiting off the worship of God. In these cases (especially John 2), it seems to me that they were doing both of these in that the outer courts of the temple were for non-Jews to worship - not buying and selling, and profiting off God's worship.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for bringing into this discussion the other account of this cleansing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joh 2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
> Joh 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
> Joh 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wasn't it that the vendors were making a profit from selling animals to be sacrificed? So, I agree, it doesn't seem to be exactly the same as a book table.
Click to expand...

D.A. Carson makes the helpful note that the other issue was that since it was in the temple courts, it was excluding the Gentiles from worshipping. Jesus isn't down with excluding worshipers of his Father.


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## ColdSilverMoon

larryjf said:


> ColdSilverMoon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> larryjf said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you define commerce as exchanging goods for money, then i don't see how that wouldn't be commerce.
> 
> Bringing cream for coffee is sharing your resources....buying a devotion is commerce.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is getting in to semantics. If you strictly define commerce as exchanging money for goods, then I would argue that a book table is an acceptable form of commerce. But I think any reasonable person can distinguish between providing a service (ie, good Christian books for no profit) and setting up a business enterprise that exploits the Lord's Day and His people.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> o.k....but let's talk a bit further about exploiting the Lord's Day. If we are to keep the day in worship, need, and mercy...how do we excuse paying for materials (even if it's not for profit).
> Would it be o.k. for someone to by a car as long as no profit was being made on the Lord's Day?
Click to expand...


Well, I personally have no problem buying a car in a private transaction (ie, from a friend or relative) on the Lord's Day, but I know others on this board would disagree.

That issue aside, I think the real point of discussion is the intent of the book table. If the intent is to provide edifying material in a convenient fashion, I fail to see a problem with it, and think you could conceivably lump it under the necessity or worship categories. In my case it's a need. The books are all approved by the pastoral staff, and include some excellent Reformed works. The table is only available on Sunday. So the only real opportunity to look at their selections and obtain them is on Sunday after church. Others may disagree, but my conscience has never been the least bit bothered by this...


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## Ex Nihilo

ColdSilverMoon said:


> larryjf said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ColdSilverMoon said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is getting in to semantics. If you strictly define commerce as exchanging money for goods, then I would argue that a book table is an acceptable form of commerce. But I think any reasonable person can distinguish between providing a service (ie, good Christian books for no profit) and setting up a business enterprise that exploits the Lord's Day and His people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> o.k....but let's talk a bit further about exploiting the Lord's Day. If we are to keep the day in worship, need, and mercy...how do we excuse paying for materials (even if it's not for profit).
> Would it be o.k. for someone to by a car as long as no profit was being made on the Lord's Day?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, I personally have no problem buying a car in a private transaction (ie, from a friend or relative) on the Lord's Day, but I know others on this board would disagree.
> 
> That issue aside, I think the real point of discussion is the intent of the book table. If the intent is to provide edifying material in a convenient fashion, I fail to see a problem with it, and think *you could conceivably lump it under the necessity or worship categories.* In my case it's a need. The books are all approved by the pastoral staff, and include some excellent Reformed works. The table is only available on Sunday. So the only real opportunity to look at their selections and obtain them is on Sunday after church. Others may disagree, but my conscience has never been the least bit bothered by this...
Click to expand...


If it were going to be adjudicated by a human being, and there were no right answer, you could. But the Fourth Commandment is not the Bankruptcy Code. . .


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## larryjf

ColdSilverMoon said:


> larryjf said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ColdSilverMoon said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is getting in to semantics. If you strictly define commerce as exchanging money for goods, then I would argue that a book table is an acceptable form of commerce. But I think any reasonable person can distinguish between providing a service (ie, good Christian books for no profit) and setting up a business enterprise that exploits the Lord's Day and His people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> o.k....but let's talk a bit further about exploiting the Lord's Day. If we are to keep the day in worship, need, and mercy...how do we excuse paying for materials (even if it's not for profit).
> Would it be o.k. for someone to by a car as long as no profit was being made on the Lord's Day?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, I personally have no problem buying a car in a private transaction (ie, from a friend or relative) on the Lord's Day, but I know others on this board would disagree.
> 
> That issue aside, I think the real point of discussion is the intent of the book table. If the intent is to provide edifying material in a convenient fashion, I fail to see a problem with it, and think you could conceivably lump it under the necessity or worship categories. In my case it's a need. The books are all approved by the pastoral staff, and include some excellent Reformed works. The table is only available on Sunday. So the only real opportunity to look at their selections and obtain them is on Sunday after church. Others may disagree, but my conscience has never been the least bit bothered by this...
Click to expand...


Now that i know your position on buying a car on the Lord's Day i understand where you are coming from.
We will simply not agree on this issue.

If a devotional were a need then people couldn't survive without it...so i think you define the word "need" very loosely.


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## Scott1

> Our church has a book table, and it is the best Reformed book store in New York, in my opinion, and only operates on Sundays after church. What a loss it would be if they shut it down....
> __________________
> Mason
> Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA)
> New York, NY



I bought a copy of a book about Calvinism versus Arminianism at that book table after an evening service. 

At that time, I remember appreciating having a place to go and fellowship with (busy New York) church members and to buy some key biblical materials at a non-profit price after the service. It was a natural outgrowth of what I had heard at the service and was hearing generally about reformed theology. My recollection is I purchased two items, didn't have change and they gave me the books for what I had (less than the sticker).

Since my understanding is that sabbath ends at sundown (another topic) and the exchange was after sundown, it would not have been a sabbath violation to me anyway.

All this to say, if I had purchased, say _The Purpose Driven Life_ at full retail rather than Williamson at a non-profit discount, it might have violated my conscience. But I'm trying to distinguish in my own mind why.


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## Tim

So, we have the argument from the reverence due the place and event of public worship. And we have the argument from the fourth commandment. Which is stronger? Are both applicable here?


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## Ex Nihilo

Tim said:


> So, we have the argument from the reverence due the place and event of public worship. And we have the argument from the fourth commandment. Which is stronger? Are both applicable here?



Maybe, but the fourth commandment seems much stronger here -- fewer exceptions, and those are pretty clearly spelled out. The requirement of reverence at the place of worship is kind of mushy and subjective.


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## Spinningplates2

From time to time a Sunday night service may have a guest speaker or person who ministers with music, once I bought a CD of hymns and another time I bought a book. Both times I wanted to help their ministry. Did I sin while trying to support their work?


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## Tim

Ex Nihilo said:


> Tim said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, we have the argument from the reverence due the place and event of public worship. And we have the argument from the fourth commandment. Which is stronger? Are both applicable here?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe, but the fourth commandment seems much stronger here -- fewer exceptions, and those are pretty clearly spelled out. The requirement of reverence at the place of worship is kind of mushy and subjective.
Click to expand...


Yes, the concept of reverence _can_ be subjective. I am glad that the issue of the Fourth Commandment has come up. Because it hadn't occurred to me when I began the thread. 

The Fourth Commandment is not a burden, so there must be many ways one can acquire literature without _having_ to do this on the Lord's Day.

-----Added 12/15/2008 at 12:17:06 EST-----



Spinningplates2 said:


> From time to time a Sunday night service may have a guest speaker or person who ministers with music, once I bought a CD of hymns and another time I bought a book. Both times I wanted to help their ministry. Did I sin while trying to support their work?



Allan, I don't think anyone would want to say whether or not you have sinned. We are all in this together, and many of us have purchased material at a church at one time or another. 

But if this thread is able to help us all consider how we can best glorify the Lord in activities and endeavors that occur during or after public worship, then we have all progressed in our sanctification. May we all be able to find ways to honor God through supporting the ministries from which we have received blessings.


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## ColdSilverMoon

larryjf said:


> ColdSilverMoon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> larryjf said:
> 
> 
> 
> o.k....but let's talk a bit further about exploiting the Lord's Day. If we are to keep the day in worship, need, and mercy...how do we excuse paying for materials (even if it's not for profit).
> Would it be o.k. for someone to by a car as long as no profit was being made on the Lord's Day?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I personally have no problem buying a car in a private transaction (ie, from a friend or relative) on the Lord's Day, but I know others on this board would disagree.
> 
> That issue aside, I think the real point of discussion is the intent of the book table. If the intent is to provide edifying material in a convenient fashion, I fail to see a problem with it, and think you could conceivably lump it under the necessity or worship categories. In my case it's a need. The books are all approved by the pastoral staff, and include some excellent Reformed works. The table is only available on Sunday. So the only real opportunity to look at their selections and obtain them is on Sunday after church. Others may disagree, but my conscience has never been the least bit bothered by this...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Now that i know your position on buying a car on the Lord's Day i understand where you are coming from.
> We will simply not agree on this issue.
> 
> If a devotional were a need then people couldn't survive without it...so i think you define the word "need" very loosely.
Click to expand...


Then how you define "need?" If you define it as something necessary to survival, then really your standard is higher than Christ's. So you're right, we won't agree on this issue...


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## larryjf

ColdSilverMoon said:


> Then how you define "need?" If you define it as something necessary to survival, then really your standard is higher than Christ's. So you're right, we won't agree on this issue...



How's that?


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## Ex Nihilo

Tim said:


> Ex Nihilo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tim said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, we have the argument from the reverence due the place and event of public worship. And we have the argument from the fourth commandment. Which is stronger? Are both applicable here?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe, but the fourth commandment seems much stronger here -- fewer exceptions, and those are pretty clearly spelled out. The requirement of reverence at the place of worship is kind of mushy and subjective.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, the concept of reverence _can_ be subjective. I am glad that the issue of the Fourth Commandment has come up. Because it hadn't occurred to me when I began the thread.
> 
> The Fourth Commandment is not a burden, so there must be many ways one can acquire literature without _having_ to do this on the Lord's Day.
Click to expand...


I'm not positive what I think about this, so I am glad to be able to read everyone's responses in this thread. But yes, two points:

(1) As already stated, I am not positive the Fourth Amendment prohibits buying and selling on the Lord's Day, but if it does, I can't agree with trying to argue that this is an exception. With man-made laws, we argue plausible but unlikely exceptions all the time. But I can't agree with treating God's law the same way.

(2) Yes, there must be many ways one could acquire literature without a Sunday book table. I don't get the argument that the book table couldn't be held on another day of the week. It would not likely be a tremendous burden to ask church members to come at some other time (perhaps on Wednesday) to buy books.

(3) Whether it's "okay" to sell books (even on a nonprofit basis) on Sunday or not, it seems that it would be a better policy not to charge. If the church charges for the books, the at-cost price does not help the less affluent all that much. If the point is really edification, the church would give the books away for free, perhaps with a gentle reminder to tithe. What a wonderful ministry if those who are able to pay can help cover the cost of books for others! Are we really afraid that theological book-lovers are going to break the budget through their mooching? I strongly suspect that the church would actually get _more_ money by giving the books away for free and encouraging those who are able to give their regular offerings. Maybe some do not see a real difference if "payment" is still being encouraged; I do.


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## ColdSilverMoon

larryjf said:


> ColdSilverMoon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then how you define "need?" If you define it as something necessary to survival, then really your standard is higher than Christ's. So you're right, we won't agree on this issue...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How's that?
Click to expand...


Luke 6:1-11. Here's verse 9 (NKJV):



> Then Jesus said to them: Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy?



Healing on the Sabbath is an unnecessary good work - unnecessary in the sense that it could be done on the following day. Making available good, edifying books on the Lord's Day is also an unnecessary good work. Seems perfectly permissible, to me.


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## larryjf

ColdSilverMoon said:


> larryjf said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ColdSilverMoon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then how you define "need?" If you define it as something necessary to survival, then really your standard is higher than Christ's. So you're right, we won't agree on this issue...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How's that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Luke 6:1-11. Here's verse 9 (NKJV):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then Jesus said to them: Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Healing on the Sabbath is an unnecessary good work - unnecessary in the sense that it could be done on the following day. Making available good, edifying books on the Lord's Day is also an unnecessary good work. Seems perfectly permissible, to me.
Click to expand...


Of course it's lawful to save life...i would never disagree to that. Whether that salvation comes through healing the body (which is why i said that a doctor's visit would be permissible), or healing the soul.

To equate a the miraculous healings of Jesus to devotionals on a back table is obscene.

Did Jesus charge on this Sabbath? Did He accept money enough to cover His expenses (not-for-profit)?


----------



## ColdSilverMoon

larryjf said:


> ColdSilverMoon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> larryjf said:
> 
> 
> 
> How's that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Luke 6:1-11. Here's verse 9 (NKJV):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then Jesus said to them: Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Healing on the Sabbath is an unnecessary good work - unnecessary in the sense that it could be done on the following day. Making available good, edifying books on the Lord's Day is also an unnecessary good work. Seems perfectly permissible, to me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course it's lawful to save life...i would never disagree to that. Whether that salvation comes through healing the body (which is why i said that a doctor's visit would be permissible), or healing the soul.
> 
> To equate a the miraculous healings of Jesus to devotionals on a back table is obscene.
> 
> Did Jesus charge on this Sabbath? Did He accept money enough to cover His expenses (not-for-profit)?
Click to expand...


The point is that Jesus performed good acts on the Sabbath and I would consider providing edifying books a good act as well. Wouldn't you consider an edifying book an agent for healing the soul?

And while Jesus didn't "charge" for healing of course, He did accept general donations to sustain His ministry.


----------



## MMasztal

Me thinks ye strain at gnats.


----------



## Herald

I'm content to allow this to be a matter of Christian liberty. If a church decides that no money will exchange hands for anything, even a coffee fund, so be it. If a church provides resources at or below cost, so be it. I haven't been convinced by the arguments against, so to me it's a matter of liberty.


----------



## Jon Peters

larryjf said:


> Kevin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since I am not making an argument for commerce on the Lord's Day, I have nothing to back up (In my humble opinion).
> 
> In my view people dropping a few coins in a cup next to the coffee pot is no different then, taking turns bringing the sugar & cream on Sunday. However opperating a franchised coffee shop in the lobby (as one local church does) is a huge difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you define commerce as exchanging goods for money, then i don't see how that wouldn't be commerce.
> 
> Bringing cream for coffee is sharing your resources....buying a devotion is commerce.
Click to expand...


I'm curious about the commerce issue. Does your definition of commerce include the purchase of an item on credit? For instance, what if I take the book on Sunday and tell the person I will pay them tomorrow and they agree? Commerce? If you would consider that commerce then how is it not commerce to use electricity on the Lord's day? Are you not accruing expenses (in exchange for services rendered) to be paid at a later date? I wouldn't think that in the typical household (no electrical medical devices) electricity is a necessity in that people existed for thousands of years without it.


----------



## Confessor

Jon Peters said:


> I'm curious about the commerce issue. Does your definition of commerce include the purchase of an item on credit? For instance, what if I take the book on Sunday and tell the person I will pay them tomorrow and they agree? Commerce?



This is an interesting point. I would have to say that making such a deal would in fact be commerce, and consequently it would be forbidden on the Sabbath.

Of course, I'm digging the whole "optional non-profit payment to cover the expenses" side...



> If you would consider that commerce then how is it not commerce to use electricity on the Lord's day? Are you not accruing expenses (in exchange for services rendered) to be paid at a later date? I wouldn't think that in the typical household (no electrical medical devices) electricity is a necessity in that people existed for thousands of years without it.



I disagree here. To say that electricity was not needed in a non-electronic age is not to say that electricity is unnecessary in all ages.


----------



## Scott Shahan

ColdSilverMoon said:


> larryjf said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kevin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since I am not making an argument for commerce on the Lord's Day, I have nothing to back up (In my humble opinion).
> 
> In my view people dropping a few coins in a cup next to the coffee pot is no different then, taking turns bringing the sugar & cream on Sunday. However opperating a franchised coffee shop in the lobby (as one local church does) is a huge difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you define commerce as exchanging goods for money, then i don't see how that wouldn't be commerce.
> 
> Bringing cream for coffee is sharing your resources....buying a devotion is commerce.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is getting in to semantics. If you strictly define commerce as exchanging money for goods, then I would argue that a book table is an acceptable form of commerce. But I think any reasonable person can distinguish between providing a service (ie, good Christian books for no profit) and setting up a business enterprise that exploits the Lord's Day and His people.
Click to expand...


I used to go bethlehem baptist church in minneapolis and Piper has Desiring God bookstore open for business in the church on sundays.


----------



## PuritanCovenanter

I have known Books to spiritually heal people. Especially when they exegete the Word of God. I am not against buying a good book for someone on Sunday as I am not against buying a Drs. Prescription on Sunday.


----------



## Kevin

Could we not even go so far as to say that some books that are picked up on a Sunday book table "preach the Gospel"?

If the book in question met this criteria, could anyone still object?


----------



## larryjf

ColdSilverMoon said:


> The point is that Jesus performed good acts on the Sabbath and I would consider providing edifying books a good act as well. Wouldn't you consider an edifying book an agent for healing the soul?
> 
> And while Jesus didn't "charge" for healing of course, He did accept general donations to sustain His ministry.



The point of the passage is that if we neglect doing good works on the Sabbath we are, in fact, sinning.

Taking money in return for something is not what the Lord is teaching here.

-----Added 12/15/2008 at 08:56:15 EST-----



Jon Peters said:


> I'm curious about the commerce issue. Does your definition of commerce include the purchase of an item on credit? For instance, what if I take the book on Sunday and tell the person I will pay them tomorrow and they agree? Commerce? If you would consider that commerce then how is it not commerce to use electricity on the Lord's day? Are you not accruing expenses (in exchange for services rendered) to be paid at a later date? I wouldn't think that in the typical household (no electrical medical devices) electricity is a necessity in that people existed for thousands of years without it.



A book will not keep you alive, electricity will...it's a need, which is allowable on the Lord's Day.
You can't say that it's not a need because in the past people didn't have it. People ate different kinds of food to, but that doesn't mean that our food isn't a need.
We can't just make a fire in the middle of our living room to keep warm or to cook. Our society has evolved to the point where electricity is a necessity for most.


----------



## Quickened

In my opinion these books are to edify and educate the believer on their journey with God. Nothing wrong with that. My church is the only physical place that i can drive to and buy solid reformed material.

I am also very grateful that i have this oppurtunity to do so. Some believers arent so lucky and have to rely on internet only transactions. Its nice to meet with believers and discuss the works in front of us as we wait for service to start. Makes for good fellowship and conversation.


----------



## larryjf

Kevin said:


> Could we not even go so far as to say that some books that are picked up on a Sunday book table "preach the Gospel"?
> 
> If the book in question met this criteria, could anyone still object?



Hopefully the Gospel was preached while they were in the church service. I pray that we haven't gotten to the point where we must charge people on Sunday's to have the Gospel preached to them.


----------



## Tim

I am not sure I buy this whole "_it's okay to engage in commerce on the Lord's Day because you are buying and selling that which is spiritually beneficial_" argument. If you agree that commerce in general violates the Fourth Commandment, then you would have to find a reason why a book table would be permissible in this case. (I am just addressing the Fourth Commandment here; not the _reverence of the house of worship_ issue).

Let us remember that the Westminster Confession recognizes two activities that are always permissible on the Sabbath: necessity and mercy (Matt. 12:1-13). One who favors a book table will have to show that either:

1) a book table is necessary; or
2) a book table is merciful. 

I will assume that _necessity_ will not be argued here. 

If the purpose of the book table is to provide something merciful, how is this consistent with charging money (even at cost)? This would be akin to me charging you money when I help you pull your sheep out of a pit (as in Matt. 12: 11-13). This is _not_ mercy. Mercy cannot be paid for. 

Is this passage relevant here?



> Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
> Act 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
> Act 8:20 But Peter said unto him, *Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. *


----------



## JonathanHunt

We have a free book table, period. If folks want particular books or ask for help on a topic, I quote them a price and procure them the books 'seperately'. Sometimes folks feel 'guilty' taking literature as 'the church' has paid for it. When they approach me about it I just tell them to drop a few extra pounds in the offering box if that is how they feel.

It is certainly not something that I will get bent out of shape about, but I feel it is best to avoid giving offence over such a trivial matter, so we do not 'sell' any items on the Lord's Day.


----------



## Scott1

> Westminster Larger Catechism
> Q. 117. How is the sabbath or the Lord’s day to be sanctified?
> 
> A. The sabbath or Lord’s day is to be sanctified by an *holy resting *all the day,[624] not only from such works as are at all times sinful, but even from such *worldly employments and recreations *as are on other days lawful;[625] and *making it our delight to spend the whole time* (except so much of it as is to be taken up in works of necessity and mercy[626]) in the public and private exercises of God’s worship:[627] and, to that end, we are to prepare our hearts, and with such foresight, diligence, and moderation, to dispose and seasonably dispatch our worldly business, that we may be the more free and fit for the duties of that day.[628]



Our Standards may cut us some slack here.

As a summary of the doctrine of Scripture, we are to rest from our employment and entertaining self, which includes our thoughts, words and deeds about them. Conversely, we ought not require others to do the same except that, generously, God has given us exceptions for necessity and mercy, and implicitly piety (cf GI Williamson defines this as things necessary for the public worship of God- we sometimes take this for granted without acknowledging it).

So, the focus is on employment and recreation which makes church book distribution a little more possible- not every method, and because it is "lawfull" doesn't mean it is "expedient" or that it will not cause others to stumble, which brings other biblical precepts into consideration.


----------



## Quickened

Tim said:


> I am not sure I buy this whole "_it's okay to engage in commerce on the Lord's Day because you are buying and selling that which is spiritually beneficial_" argument. If you agree that commerce in general violates the Fourth Commandment, then you would have to find a reason why a book table would be permissible in this case. (I am just addressing the Fourth Commandment here; not the _reverence of the house of worship_ issue).
> 
> Let us remember that the Westminster Confession recognizes two activities that are always permissible on the Sabbath: necessity and mercy (Matt. 12:1-13). One who favors a book table will have to show that either:
> 
> 1) a book table is necessary; or
> 2) a book table is merciful.
> 
> I will assume that _necessity_ will not be argued here.
> 
> 
> If the purpose of the book table is to provide something merciful, how is this consistent with charging money (even at cost)? This would be akin to me charging you money when I help you pull your sheep out of a pit (as in Matt. 12: 11-13). This is _not_ mercy. Mercy cannot be paid for.
> 
> Is this passage relevant here?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
> Act 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
> Act 8:20 But Peter said unto him, *Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. *
Click to expand...


I dont know. I dont consider this a typical type of commerce. If someone was to go out on the sabbath and buy a video game I would see that as unnecessary. That could be done on any other day of the week.

In some instances buying materials at church is only an activity that can occur on a sunday. 

On the Lord's day do you read only the bible? If i read books other than the bible I have a hard time seeing how dropping some bills in the box for said materials is a sabbath violation. 

Secondly we cant expect church materials (like books) to be free. Especially for smaller congregations. With the cost of materials and shipping it wouldnt be beneficial to the church. Assuming that church is actively going through materials it would be a loss every month.

If they provide this service then i see no problem paying for it. As a bonus i am saving money on shipping.

The passage in acts really doesnt apply here (in my opinion). What was simon after here? The power. His intentions were off from the beginning. Who knows what he would have done had he actually had this ability but if we remember he was already wowing the people with his magic to the point where they said "this man is the power of God which is called great".

He was rebuked for trying to obtain this gift with money. I dont think books fall into this category.


----------



## Tim

Quickened said:


> The passage in acts really doesnt apply here (in my opinion). What was simon after here? The power. His intentions were off from the beginning. Who knows what he would have done had he actually had this ability but if we remember he was already wowing the people with his magic to the point where they said "this man is the power of God which is called great".
> 
> He was rebuked for trying to obtain this gift with money. I dont think books fall into this category.



Yeah, you're probably right - it's too much out of context. I was trying to make the point that if books are considered a sort of edifying ministry, and someone is paying for this ministry...



> I dont know. I dont consider this a typical type of commerce. If someone was to go out on the sabbath and buy a video game I would see that as unnecessary. That could be done on any other day of the week.



So, let's try to get at what is the difference. In one, you are paying money for spiritually edifying material. In the other, you are paying money for recreation material. 

If we are to pursue this argument that you and others have suggested (and I think it is useful to do so here), then we have to decide _why_ it is okay to engage in commerce of Christian material and not other types of material, on the Lord's Day.



> In some instances buying materials at church is only an activity that can occur on a sunday.



Debatable.


----------



## Reformed Baptist

We have literature on our welcome table. It's just for free.


----------



## Kevin

Is it "commerce" for a paid minister to preach on Sunday?


----------



## Scott1

It might be helpful to define works of "piety," an "exception" to the fourth commandment prohibition against doing any work.

GI Williamson, _The Westminster Confession of Faith for Study Classes_ p.222


> Similarly, Christ proved from Scripture that certain speific types of work _are_ legitimate on the Sabbath. These works are works of _piety_ (that is work that must be done in order that God be worshipped, such as the work of a pastor in preaching the gospel on the Lord's Day), works of _necessity_ (that is, work that cannot be delayed without harm to life or property, such as rescuing an ox that falls in the ditch, or helping put out a fire), and works of _mercy_ (such as an act of kindness to a person who is sick or in distress)...
> 
> Jesus did not eliminate the Sabbath, but placed it where it belonged, that is, subordinate to his own lordship.


----------



## Tim

Scott1 said:


> It might be helpful to define works of "piety," an "exception" to the fourth commandment prohibition against doing any work.
> 
> GI Williamson, _The Westminster Confession of Faith for Study Classes_ p.222
> 
> 
> 
> Similarly, Christ proved from Scripture that certain speific types of work _are_ legitimate on the Sabbath. These works are works of _piety_ (that is work that must be done in order that God be worshipped, such as the work of a pastor in preaching the gospel on the Lord's Day), works of _necessity_ (that is, work that cannot be delayed without hard to life or property, such as rescuing an ox that falls in the ditch, or helping put out a fire), and works of _mercy_ (such as an act of kindness to a person who is sick or in distress)...
> 
> Jesus did not eliminate the Sabbath, but placed it where it belonged, that is, subordinate to his own lordship.
Click to expand...


Thanks for this, Scott. Now we have three categories that might potentially allow the selling of books at church on the Lord's Day. I don't think we have yet defined _works of piety_ on this thread as well as Williamson has done in the quote. So, it is a good addition to the discussion.

However, I am having trouble seeing how selling books is considered "work that must be done in order that God be worshipped". Book-buying certainly seems to me to be in a different category from preaching, reading of scripture, etc.

I'm not sure where to go from here. I think the next thing that we would have to figure out is what exactly about selling a Christian book makes it different. And would it be okay to sell a book on Christian homeschooling or a biography?


----------



## Nate

I've been firmly in the "no selling books on the Lord's Day - even not for profit" camp while reading this thread. Then I realized that my denomination has a practice of giving money to the "General Fund" at/during church. The General Fund covers building/pastor/evangelism costs - I guess we are in effect paying the bills on Sunday. Maybe a little


----------



## larryjf

NateLanning said:


> I've been firmly in the "no selling books on the Lord's Day - even not for profit" camp while reading this thread. Then I realized that my denomination has a practice of giving money to the "General Fund" at/during church. The General Fund covers building/pastor/evangelism costs - I guess we are in effect paying the bills on Sunday. Maybe a little



If the money is given by means of the tithe then it shouldn't be an issue. Tithing is supposed to be done on the Lord's Day.


----------



## Tim

NateLanning said:


> I've been firmly in the "no selling books on the Lord's Day - even not for profit" camp while reading this thread. Then I realized that my denomination has a practice of giving money to the "General Fund" at/during church. The General Fund covers building/pastor/evangelism costs - I guess we are in effect paying the bills on Sunday. Maybe a little



 That's totally fine.


----------



## fredtgreco

larryjf said:


> NateLanning said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've been firmly in the "no selling books on the Lord's Day - even not for profit" camp while reading this thread. Then I realized that my denomination has a practice of giving money to the "General Fund" at/during church. The General Fund covers building/pastor/evangelism costs - I guess we are in effect paying the bills on Sunday. Maybe a little
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the money is given by means of the tithe then it shouldn't be an issue. Tithing is supposed to be done on the Lord's Day.
Click to expand...


Actually, unless you admit an offering as an element of worship, I don't see any evidence that is the case.


----------



## Tim

fredtgreco said:


> larryjf said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NateLanning said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've been firmly in the "no selling books on the Lord's Day - even not for profit" camp while reading this thread. Then I realized that my denomination has a practice of giving money to the "General Fund" at/during church. The General Fund covers building/pastor/evangelism costs - I guess we are in effect paying the bills on Sunday. Maybe a little
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the money is given by means of the tithe then it shouldn't be an issue. Tithing is supposed to be done on the Lord's Day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, unless you admit an offering as an element of worship, I don't see any evidence that is the case.
Click to expand...


Yes, I forgot that this was a debated issue. Is this passage relevant here?



> 1Co 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
> 1Co 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.


----------



## larryjf

fredtgreco said:


> larryjf said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NateLanning said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've been firmly in the "no selling books on the Lord's Day - even not for profit" camp while reading this thread. Then I realized that my denomination has a practice of giving money to the "General Fund" at/during church. The General Fund covers building/pastor/evangelism costs - I guess we are in effect paying the bills on Sunday. Maybe a little
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the money is given by means of the tithe then it shouldn't be an issue. Tithing is supposed to be done on the Lord's Day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, unless you admit an offering as an element of worship, I don't see any evidence that is the case.
Click to expand...


As per the book of church order of my denomination, offerings are an element of worship.

PCA BCO...



> 47-9. The Bible teaches that the following are proper elements of worship
> service: reading of Holy Scripture, singing of psalms and hymns, the
> offering of prayer, the preaching of the Word, *the presentation of offerings*, confessing the faith and observing the Sacraments; and on special occasions taking oaths.


----------



## fredtgreco

larryjf said:


> fredtgreco said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> larryjf said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the money is given by means of the tithe then it shouldn't be an issue. Tithing is supposed to be done on the Lord's Day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, unless you admit an offering as an element of worship, I don't see any evidence that is the case.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As per the book of church order of my denomination, offerings are an element of worship.
> 
> PCA BCO...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 47-9. The Bible teaches that the following are proper elements of worship
> service: reading of Holy Scripture, singing of psalms and hymns, the
> offering of prayer, the preaching of the Word, *the presentation of offerings*, confessing the faith and observing the Sacraments; and on special occasions taking oaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Yes, but you do realize that the BCO is not bind on this point, not to mention that there would be many here who would not take it as authoritative.


----------



## ColdSilverMoon

fredtgreco said:


> larryjf said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fredtgreco said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, unless you admit an offering as an element of worship, I don't see any evidence that is the case.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As per the book of church order of my denomination, offerings are an element of worship.
> 
> PCA BCO...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 47-9. The Bible teaches that the following are proper elements of worship
> service: reading of Holy Scripture, singing of psalms and hymns, the
> offering of prayer, the preaching of the Word, *the presentation of offerings*, confessing the faith and observing the Sacraments; and on special occasions taking oaths.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, but you do realize that the BCO is not bind on this point, not to mention that there would be many here who would not take it as authoritative.
Click to expand...


Pastor Greco, maybe I missed it, but what is your view on this as a PCA pastor? Both PCA churches I have been a part of have sold books on Sunday, and it never really was an issue. Just curious what your view is...


----------



## jogri17

Kevin said:


> For the record,
> 
> I have book's & Bibles available every Sunday in 2 churches.
> 
> ESV & NKJ paperback complete bibles, Banner of Truth booklets, Seeing & Savoring Jesus Christ (Piper), Spurgeon, SC, French Bibles, and other French litt. etc.
> 
> I do not charge for any of them. In fact I make it clear at every opportunity that the is NO COST. This morning I just paid off a $1000+ credit card bill for books & bibles to give away. This year I will end up giving out over 500 Bibles & christian books to people at no cost.
> 
> So far, I have recieved gifts from people that exceed the cost of the books that I have given out. In other words, I can not give bibles away fast enough to keep up with the money that God has provided to fund this ministry.
> 
> PTL



Hey brother, I live in Québec Canada. Do you have a bilingual Bible I could buy? Any french or english translation works. I would like it to contain both testaments.


----------



## Grymir

I don't think selling books and such is a problem...I just wish the people would read them!

Also, books are different than trinkets. Trinkets would be a problem. This issue also differs at different church's. Some sell the whole Christian paraphernalia gauntlet on Sunday. That would be a problem. When Answers in Genesis comes to town, they sell their 'stuff' afterwords, and I think that's o.k. It supports the ministry and puts stuff in peoples hands to teach them. It's supporting a good ministry. And AIG doesn't sell trinkets. Now, when Benny Hinn comes to town, whoa! Look out, it's all for a buck, or at least that how it comes across. Same thing, different circumstances, differing results. I have yet to see the Answers in Genesis Lear Jet!


----------



## Kevin

brother. Joseph, I am trying to get french/english & korean/english Bibles right now with the help of the Canadian Bible Society.

But so far no, I do not have them.


----------



## fredtgreco

ColdSilverMoon said:


> fredtgreco said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> larryjf said:
> 
> 
> 
> As per the book of church order of my denomination, offerings are an element of worship.
> 
> PCA BCO...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but you do realize that the BCO is not bind on this point, not to mention that there would be many here who would not take it as authoritative.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Pastor Greco, maybe I missed it, but what is your view on this as a PCA pastor? Both PCA churches I have been a part of have sold books on Sunday, and it never really was an issue. Just curious what your view is...
Click to expand...


Mason,

I have no problem with a book table so long as it fits within general parameters. I view the book table as a ministry. Not just a ministry to members, but I think one of the best ways to "hold your church out to visitors" is a book table. Five minutes spent in front of a book table can tell you an awful lot about a church.

In my mind, the intent is not commerce, any more than if our WIC committee collects $10 from some ladies on Sunday to reserve a room/restaurant/etc. for a later weekday event.


----------



## Jon Lake

I agree with Fred, I have seen cases where Pastors have done SELF-PUBLISHED books, they usually do this as "ministry", they are not in it to make 20 Million bucks! The worker is worthy of his hire! I am with Pastor Greco, I would not view it as commerce in this case, I would view it as a collection for the effort!!!


----------



## Scott1

> *Exodus 20
> 
> 8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
> 9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
> 10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
> 11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. *



When I look at the fourth commandment, restated again in Deuteronomy 5, the focus is not on "commerce" objectively. It seems the focus is on you, as one of God's people to rest from work, and the ordinary self-preoccupations of the rest of the week, and give yourself, in priority, to worship Him all the day. This is thought, word, and deed.

The corollary of this, necessarily related to it is you ought not by your actions prevent others from doing the same.

Christ explicitly explains in the application of this glorious commandment, allowance for for works of necessity and mercy and Scripture implicitly allows the church to operate and do its "job" (sometimes called piety).

So, if a church's job is teaching and preaching the Word of God, we might assume literature distribution is part of that, from the church's standpoint. This is not the kind of "work" the commandment is prohibiting. Not things that are necessarily and incidentally related to the church during her "work" on the Lord's Day.

Even commerce is not absolutely prohibited in that commerce that involves mercy or necessity is (generously) allowed. An example of this would be if you were sick, you could buy medicine, even though you pay money for it and are causing somebody to work to provide it. God has graciously chosen not to place undue burden on us. Rather, He exhorts us to call the sabbath a delight. 

It would seem to me to be a more difficult case to invite in an outsider to the church to sell his own materials at the church, but that's not quite the same case as the church doing its ordinary sabbath "job."

The more I think about this, the commandment would allow the church to disseminate Christian literature, even charge for it. There are time, manner and place restrictions to prevent undue distraction or causing unbelievers or weak believers not to stumble. They must be considered. 

Churches may wisely choose just not to deal with the other considerations and not collect money for any materials, but now, after considering all these good posts and the Scripture, I don't think the fourth commandment or any other biblical precept strictly prohibits it.

(I'm suprised to come to this conclusion)


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## staythecourse

Kevin said:


> Providing religious material to believers on the Lord's Day is not "buying & selling", in my opinion.
> 
> What is prohibited is commerce, not donating, or refunding the cost of books, food, or any other expense.
> 
> The money changers were engages in a commercial enterprise of selling coins & animals for offerings & sacrifices.
> 
> If you entered a church that only accepted a proprietary form of currency as an offering & you could only buy it from them at a userous exchange rate, then you would have a situation that was similar to that condemned by Christ.
> 
> Simply accepting the cost of a few devotional, or educational books is not even similar.



If the sacrificial animals which were required for worship were driven out of the temple, why would books, not required, be allowed at church. It makes no sense.

I spoke with my elders about our book table and he said he takes and pays later (and he's a trustworthy man). My answer was put it in the budget and give away what they want. We also have a library and I said "Let them check them out gratis"

He's still thinking about it and something may or may not happen. Who knows.


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## Confessor

staythecourse said:


> [If the sacrificial animals which were required for worship were driven out of the temple, why would books, not required, be allowed at church. It makes no sense.



The significant difference here is that the selling of animals for sacrifice was done for business purposes. Giving out wholesome literature with the added, "These are not free for us to produce; please give what you can," and maybe a specific price to help give the person a number to donate is entirely different from the example of animal sacrifices.



> I spoke with my elders about our book table and he said he takes and pays later (and he's a trustworthy man). My answer was put it in the budget and give away what they want. We also have a library and I said "Let them check them out gratis"



Buying things on credit is still commerce.


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## staythecourse

> The significant difference here is that the selling of animals for sacrifice was done for business purposes.



This would still qualify as business. Money is being offered for a product.



> Giving out wholesome literature with the added, "These are not free for us to produce; please give what you can," and maybe a specific price to help give the person a number to donate is entirely different from the example of animal sacrifices.



Still business on the Lord's Day and all that has changed is who decides on the price of the product.



> I spoke with my elders about our book table and he said he takes and pays later (and he's a trustworthy man). My answer was put it in the budget and give away what they want. We also have a library and I said "Let them check them out gratis"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Buying things on credit is still commerce.
Click to expand...


And I think it's wrong if we are trying to stay consistent with a confession.

So, free or not at all if we are trying to keep the day different from the rest. We have Wednesdays we get together so our book table should be accessible then.


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## Honor

Ok,,,, I didn't read all the thread (my bad it was long and it's late) 
But we left a church for (among other things) they set up a coffee shop outside the sanctuary doors and a HUGE bookstore off of the foyer. they got a huge profit. it was not asked of the congregation what they thought about it... it was just done.. we bought frapps from the coffee place a few times before we felt really convicted of it... then when the bookstore opened up I felt sick inside every time we walked by it. 
But I have been to churches with a little folding table and some books... I'm cool with that because I think the difference is this... Jesus got made because they were charging exhorbent amounts of money on something the people HAD TO HAVE. they were stealing money from the people. the merchandise in and of itself was cool... it was the heart of the people selling the stuff. they weren't there to make a living they were there to get rich of of the poor.... they were scummy. Jesus looked at the heart. and that I think makes all the different... rules are rules... there are a ton of rules... we are going to brake rules... but it;s our hearts that the concern of God.


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## Confessor

staythecourse said:


> This would still qualify as business. Money is being offered for a product.



That seems to be a narrow view of business, which does not take into account intent or other factors. By your definition of business, how is the tithe not a business action? You are exchanging money for the services of the church, which is a product.


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## Augusta

A tithe is a gift. A gift is not commerce.


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## Confessor

Augusta said:


> A tithe is a gift. A gift is not commerce.



Exactly. Just as tithing, a gift, goes towards a church's expenses or a pastor's salary, etc., so also a monetary gift can go towards the church's book fund.


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## Augusta

Yes the person who is giving away books on a book table I think is fine. Even if he has a donation cup. You don't have to donate thus if you do it is a gift. Or even if you don't take a book but want to help for free literature for others you can give a gift. I could be wrong but I don't think that is commerce.


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## puritanpilgrim

Is it possible to covet theology books?


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## Honor

I don't know but I know that my husband coveted the ESV study Bible... ok maybe Covet is a strong work.. how about wanted really really really really bad?


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## Rangerus

In trying to sort this question out about the book table, I went back and re-read the fourth commandment. The word "Holy" seems to be the key word in the commandment. To decide on this topic, I first have to define what constitutes "Holy" in terms of the book table. To me it seems that the purpose of the book table must in all definitions be consistent with the definition of "Holy".

I keep thinking of Galatians 5:23 (Against such there is no law)

Exploiting for profit is absolutely wrong. However, providing a church related, Christian based, Confession approved service and asking for money to cover costs, well it depends. 

In all cases, I have to ask myself is this "Holy" activity? And would Jesus approve? If the answer is yes, then who am I to question it.


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