# POLL: How many have you led to Christ this year?



## Stope

Friends! Im curious to see how the folks of the PB are used of God in bring folks to Christ!

I myself havent brought anyone, that Im aware, to the Lord this year (that is, from unbelief to belief), yet I have been blessed to be used to help many have an invigorated faith - and in some cases I think might have actually been born again in that moment.

If you have, please share the testimony that we may be encouraged and God honored!

"The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and whoever captures souls is wise." Prov. 11:30


----------



## jw

Not sure that's discernible.

Reactions: Like 5 | Amen 1


----------



## Stope

Joshua said:


> Not sure that's discernible.


Agreed. Thats how it was for me this year, but I know, for example, there have been many years where I was used to very clearly bring folks from unbelief to belief. I will then deduce from your response then that you fall in the camp of what I am speaking of in the former. I think most responses will be that way unless posters are referencing international work


----------



## KeithW

Joshua said:


> Not sure that's discernible.


Or even that is us who does it.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.​
We are to share the Gospel but it is God who accomplishes what He wills.

Outside of Reformed circles there is a huge emphasis on "soul winning", leading people to the Lord. Often it is more important to grow the numbers in the church than to even teach them to become disciples and grow in the Lord.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Ask Mr. Religion

I would be loathe to hazard a vote in this poll. Any "watering" we may do cannot be definitively pointed to as the root of the "increase" the Lord gives. I personally would consider it a boast (or morbid introspection) to vote. Let your own conscience be your guide.

Reactions: Like 1 | Amen 1


----------



## greenbaggins

I've always felt very uncomfortable with this sort of question. For one thing, Joshua's point is something I've felt for a long time. Secondly, all too often, we want to take credit for "being used by God." Thirdly, this sort of question has led to comparisons between people, comparisons I feel are not appropriate, comparisons that allow certain people to feel superior to others. The apostles had more converts than Jesus Christ. What does that say? Were they more used by God than Jesus Christ was? Fourthly, some of the OT prophets (Jeremiah, in particular) were told that NO ONE would listen to them. Were they still used by God? The attempt to quantify being used by God is not very helpful, therefore, in my opinion. Fifthly, as Keith points out, just as important as soul-winning is the task of discipling people and teaching them so that they grow up into good works, something an emphasis on "soul-winning" has failed at abysmally. The question, therefore, of who is being used by God cannot have "soul-winning" as the prize, or gem, such that those who cannot count converts should be made to feel like they are less useful than those who can. Speaking for myself, I have shared the gospel with hundreds of people through sermons, but I haven't the foggiest clue whether any of them have been converted by any of those messages. We need to make sure that being used by God is not narrowed in its definition such that soul-winning is the only way to determine our usefulness.

Reactions: Like 6 | Informative 1 | Edifying 1


----------



## Stope

KeithW said:


> Outside of Reformed circles there is a huge emphasis on "soul winning", leading people to the Lord. Often it is more important to grow the numbers in the church than to even teach them to become disciples and grow in the Lord.


You are right, may we never fall into that area of wanting notches on the belt! But lets not throw the baby out with the bath water, lets rejoice in who got saved! Lets glorify God and lets encourage one another!



Ask Mr. Religion said:


> I would be loathe to hazard a vote in this poll. Any "watering" we may do cannot be definitively pointed to as the root of the "increase" the Lord gives. I personally would consider it a boast (or morbid introspection) to vote. Let your own conscience be your guide.


I dont understand what your first sentence means, as far as the second, indeed if you would do it in a boastful sense then please dont share as I dont want to read your pride. But, if you want to share what God is doing to His honor and for our encouragement, then by all means share!


----------



## Stope

greenbaggins said:


> I've always felt very uncomfortable with this sort of question. For one thing, Joshua's point is something I've felt for a long time. Secondly, all too often, we want to take credit for "being used by God."


-But God does use us. "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."



greenbaggins said:


> Thirdly, this sort of question has led to comparisons between people, comparisons I feel are not appropriate, comparisons that allow certain people to feel superior to others.


Indeed it does lead to comparisons, but thats the issue of the person who does negative with that. When i see what books you read, or when I see how many hundreds you have preached to, does that not provide fodder for comparison? Indeed it does, but I just get encouraged by those points. Same here 



greenbaggins said:


> The apostles had more converts than Jesus Christ. What does that say? Were they more used by God than Jesus Christ was?


-No it doesnt, nobody ever said it did. 



greenbaggins said:


> Fourthly, some of the OT prophets (Jeremiah, in particular) were told that NO ONE would listen to them. Were they still used by God? The attempt to quantify being used by God is not very helpful, therefore, in my opinion


But we are used by God (see above). You yourself mentioned that you preached to hundreds, you know thats a means of grace and as such your used by God.



greenbaggins said:


> Fifthly, as Keith points out, just as important as soul-winning is the task of discipling people and teaching them so that they grow up into good works, something an emphasis on "soul-winning" has failed at abysmally.


In fact we are called to make disciples! I couldnt agree more. I was just asking how many of those you are making disciples with have become born again



greenbaggins said:


> The question, therefore, of who is being used by God cannot have "soul-winning" as the prize, or gem, such that those who cannot count converts should be made to feel like they are less useful than those who can.


Agreed. Nobody said or even implied that it did



greenbaggins said:


> Speaking for myself, I have shared the gospel with hundreds of people through sermons


I dont take this as a boast from you, nor do I look down on myself for not preaching that much, instead I am grateful to God for how He has used you, for that you have been a blessing to others, and that God is honored!



greenbaggins said:


> We need to make sure that being used by God is not narrowed in its definition such that soul-winning is the only way to determine our usefulness.


That is the assumption I, and i assume almost every other person on this board, operates under


----------



## greenbaggins

Jason, I was not suggesting, in turn, that God does not use us, contrary to what you seem to be saying. I am suggesting that it is more profitable to consider the myriad different ways God uses us, rather than seeking to quantify this one way.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Stope

greenbaggins said:


> Jason, I was not suggesting, in turn, that God does not use us, contrary to what you seem to be saying. I am suggesting that it is more profitable to consider the myriad different ways God uses us, rather than seeking to quantify this one way.


Im sure it could be more beneficial to consider one of the other myriad of ways that God uses us, but for this specific thread, Im considering this one


----------



## BG

I voted 11+. I have led many to the Lord I'm not sure that Christ saved any of them but that is where I led them.

Reactions: Like 13


----------



## Ryan&Amber2013

I have not seen anyone this year go from death to life because of the way I was used. I feel shame sometimes as well for not being more bold. I have passed out tracts which hopefully have helped, and hopefully my words and life have led others closer to God.


----------



## SolaScriptura

I hope I don't get in trouble for this, but when I hear many of these answers I hear, "No one, but I can easily theologize myself out of feeling guilty about it."

By lead someone to the Lord, I mean what I believe most people mean. Namely, that through my ministry to that person, they went from unbelief to professing faith in Christ for their salvation. By that fairly standard definition, I can say: 2. But the year's only half done.

Reactions: Like 4


----------



## Parmenas

In my knowledge I have not been used of the Lord to lead any to Christ.

I pray that the Lord God shall use me as a witness to the Gospel and all biblical truth, as embodied in the 1647 Westminster Standards, in the Roman school I attend.


----------



## Alan D. Strange

I agree with the sentiment of many other brothers and sisters here, Jason, that we reject the premise of the question.

I realize that there are those who speak of "leading to Christ" and by such mean securing "decisions for Jesus" that are taken to mean that one has gone from unbelief to belief in a way that you can count. I question not only the accuracy of such an endeavor but its validity.

A number of us on this board preach regularly. I do, not only in my own congregation, but in many others, some of considerable size. I endeavor every time I preach to point every one present to Christ, to preach Him and Him alone, to urge all auditors to believe and repent, to come to faith whether for the first time or again. The experience of the normal Christian under gospel preaching is to move once again from some degree of unbelief to faith ("I believe, help my unbelief"). I seek to preach with clarity (about the judgment to come for all outside of Christ), urgency, and passion.

I also have many personal conversations with people in which I point them to Christ. So do the others on this board.

We are not failing to understand your question. There are aspects of the question, however, that in its assumptions are simply not Reformed. I do not know how many, both publicly and privately that I've spoken to, have embraced Christ. Some appear clearly to have done so. Later it looks otherwise. Some appear not to have but later seem to have. I think that's why Jesus spoke of two sons, one who appeared to obey and one who didn't, but only the latter really did. That shows right there that this method of "counting how many I've lead to Christ" is a misguided and ill-informed enterprise.

I both appreciate you and what you're seeking to get at here, dear brother, but this is not the way that we Reformed folk conceive of the matter of which you speak. Please understand what we are saying.

Peace,
Alan

Reactions: Like 11


----------



## earl40

Ryan&Amber2013 said:


> I have not seen anyone this year go from death to life because of the way I was used. I feel shame sometimes as well for not being more bold. I have passed out tracts which hopefully have helped, and hopefully my words and life have led others closer to God.



Don't feel shame, but know you are not called to do the work of the ordained, contra what the vast majority of our denomination thinks.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## ZackF

Not a question I would ever care to answer.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Jack K

I think the question is easiest to answer if a man is pastoring a church or otherwise engaged in the work of evangelism. In that setting, you might realize you've had a leading role in preaching the gospel to a person and urging them to believe, and you know when that person began professing faith. Granted, you can't be certain of their conversion and you realize the Spirit's work is behind it all, but it's still appropriate to be encouraged by their profession and by the role you got to play.

This has happened to me through my Sunday school teaching or Bible camp work, but not in the past year, that I recall. In most of these cases, though, I can think of other believers who were also part of the mix — parents, camp counsellors, friends, the grandparent who gave the kid a Bible years before and prayed for him daily, etc. — so that I'm uncomfortable with counts that emphasize God's use of one particular person. Besides, too much emphasis on keeping count can lead to manipulative methods, or to either self-pride or discouragement.

The question also supposes a fairly distinct experience of going from open disbelief to professing faith. Many times, coming to faith isn't like that. It happens over the long haul with the new believer having heard the gospel in several places, from several people, or for a long time, and often with some uncertainly about exactly when it took hold.

So I would gladly report, with praise to God, professions of faith that seemed to take place on my watch. But I feel even better reporting that I was privileged to point many people to Jesus in the past year. I don't really know how many of these were already believers, how many have believed since then, or how many will believe at some time yet to come. But God has let me fill my role in my time and place.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Alan D. Strange

And, Jason, Proverbs 11:30 does not mean what modern evangelicalism has taken it to mean, infected as it has been by Arminianism and worse in the past centuries.

The KJV, of course, says "he that winneth souls is wise," and a host of folk have been misled into thinking that this involves the employment of a method to secure "decisions for Christ" and the like. It simply means, in context, that fools who trouble their own inherit the wind (and are the servant of the wise) and that the wise (or righteous) brings forth good fruit (a tree of life) and rather than alienating his household proves attractive and winsome to it. It really has nothing to do, as such, with, in any way, addressing a "method of personal evangelism."

Peace,
Alan

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Alan D. Strange

I thought about answering like Jack did with respect to professions of faith. I've been involved in many, but that's really not the question that you asked, putting it as you did in the parlance of modern evangelicalism. 

I think that it is important on this board, if anywhere, to be clear that, while a popular question in broader evangelicalism, it is not how we conceive of things in the Reformed sphere and thus is not the question that we should concern ourselves with. 

It is proper that we endeavor always with our lips and lives to point others to Christ. Earl is right that it is chiefly ministers who engage in evangelism in a formal way, though all are to be ready to give an answer to the hope within. 

I appreciate your outreaching heart! Keep it up, but this is an opportunity to refine both your thinking and your expression. 

Peace,
Alan

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## greenbaggins

SolaScriptura said:


> I hope I don't get in trouble for this, but when I hear many of these answers I hear, "No one, but I can easily theologize myself out of feeling guilty about it."
> 
> By lead someone to the Lord, I mean what I believe most people mean. Namely, that through my ministry to that person, they went from unbelief to professing faith in Christ for their salvation. By that fairly standard definition, I can say: 2. But the year's only half done.



Ben, is this the counsel you would give to Jeremiah and Ezekiel upon witnessing the utter rejection of their message by the entire people of Israel? There is no evidence that anyone ever believed their message during their lifetimes. What about the hundreds of missionaries who went to Africa packing their belongings in a coffin, because the life-expectancy was 6 weeks? What about the pastor of a small church who is forced to close the church because no conversions were forthcoming, despite his best efforts? Why should I ever feel guilty about not having the same results as someone else? Shouldn't I feel a lot more guilty if I wasn't faithful to proclaim the truth? If I am not responsible for conversion itself, then why am I supposed to feel guilt for not having something that I am incapable of producing in the first place? Trouble? No. Disagreement? Yes. 

The fact is, brothers and sisters, that we are responsible for being faithful to our calling. We are IN NO WAY responsible for the results of how God chooses to use our efforts. The problem I have with the question, and now how several people have responded to the poll, is that guilt is being associated with something for which we are simply not responsible. The absence of visible results in any case is IN NO WAY a proof of lack of faithfulness, as Jeremiah and Ezekiel prove beyond a shadow of a doubt. 

Furthermore, the winning of souls seems to be prioritized over the much less glamorous (but just as important) job of slowly, calmly, building up people's faith in the years-long processes of instruction and growth.

Reactions: Like 9


----------



## OPC'n

I have never lead anyone to Christ, but I think that will be the most glorious day of my life if it happens. I will be humbled and my heart will burst with joy knowing that God chose me to give someone the Gospel to a predestined saint and he saved them. 

However, I do think the poll thing is over the top ( I did vote, however). I don't think it's "how many ppl did you lead to Christ this year" that is the important question, but "how many times do you share the Gospel with ppl in a day". I think the latter question is more important because a person can be faithful their entire lives spreading the Gospel and never see one person saved. But they still have done the work God has commanded we do. 

So I have two sides about this post. I can feel your love and excitement about bringing ppl to Christ and that's a godly feeling, but I can see the risk of feeling like a failure at doing the work God has commanded us to do if you have to vote zero.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Stope

SolaScriptura said:


> I hope I don't get in trouble for this, but when I hear many of these answers I hear, "No one, but I can easily theologize myself out of feeling guilty about it."
> Brother. I knew before I posted this that the majority of folks would do as such, yet I didnt want it to be.
> 
> By lead someone to the Lord, I mean what I believe most people mean. Namely, that through my ministry to that person, they went from unbelief to professing faith in Christ for their salvation. By that fairly standard definition, I can say: 2. But the year's only half done.


Amen! Stoked that this has happened (NOTE: Im NOT jealous, Im not worshipping you now, Im not in competition with you now, etc. Im only pleased! I glorify God!)



Wighardus said:


> In my knowledge I have not been used of the Lord to lead any to Christ.
> 
> I pray that the Lord God shall use me as a witness to the Gospel and all biblical truth, as embodied in the 1647 Westminster Standards, in the Roman school I attend.


The thing I have come to learn these last few months is that we just be intentional! Truly be the salt of the earth, let our lights shine, and live in such a way that people would ask for the hope we have within. Press on brother



Alan D. Strange said:


> I realize that there are those who speak of "leading to Christ" and by such mean securing "decisions for Jesus" that are taken to mean that one has gone from unbelief to belief in a way that you can count. I question not only the accuracy of such an endeavor but its validity.


The lack of "accuracy" is assumed, we just do the best we can



Alan D. Strange said:


> We are not failing to understand your question. There are aspects of the question, however, that in its assumptions are simply not Reformed.


There are aspects of your response that seem just not Biblical. I mean that, and not in a sassy way. You say this and sound very ivory tower, but at the end of the day I find what you are saying going beyond what is written. Can you tell me specifically what I have said where it doesnt align with what scripture teaches?



earl40 said:


> Don't feel shame, but know you are not called to do the work of the ordained, contra what the vast majority of our denomination thinks.


Please please please tell me you arent encouraging this brother to "leave it to the pros" when it comes to sharing the Gospel?



Jack K said:


> I think the question is easiest to answer if a man is pastoring a church or otherwise engaged in the work of evangelism.


Are not we all called to be involved in "evangelism", that is, to share the Gospel and be a light on a hill and salt of the earth?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Semper Fidelis

Let me answer this (in a manner similar to others) by noting that I'm not sure how many because it's part of what I do on a regular basis.
On many Sundays I lead the assurance of pardoning grace to Christians. I remind them during our Confession of Sin that Today is the day of salvation. We never come to the Lord assuming that we once came to the Lord and there is no longer a coming to Him, a hearing of Him, a heeding of His commands. Today, I urge men, women, and children to turn from their sin and turn to Christ. A person who professed Christ for years may yet have never really been vitally united to Christ by faith but Today is a day that they may finally turn and be healed even as Christ urged the Pharisees who thought they had sight.
I call my children to faith in Christ every day we do family devotions. I lead them to Christ and point them to the only Savior. My two oldest have professed faith before the Church.
I regularly meet with a group of young officers who are Christians and have mostly been brought up in Evangelical traditions where they are impoverished by an understanding of Christ that is primarily one of ethics and duties. I placard before them the risen Christ and how faith vitally unites them to Him to fully pardon all their sins and provides unto them the resurrected life, knowledge, and wisdom for battle in this world.
I preach on a regular basis for I have been privileged by my Presbytery so to do. My preaching is nothing extraordinary in the eyes of the world but I've known many people that have first heard the Gospel by it.
I don't worry about how many have truly come to faith in Christ but believe I'm privileged to share and proclaim Christ to many. I urge them Come and let the Spirit do its work. God alone knows Who are His.

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Stope

greenbaggins said:


> Ben, is this the counsel you would give to Jeremiah and Ezekiel upon witnessing the utter rejection of their message by the entire people of Israel?


No brother that's not what would offer as council (surely you know that he knows that). He simply means that he hopes He would have the boldness to share the Gospel more often (as do I)



OPC'n said:


> I don't think it's "how many ppl did you lead to Christ this year" that is the important question, but "how many times do you share the Gospel with ppl in a day".


O wow, thats a good one! That would have been even better. Well said


----------



## Stope

Semper Fidelis said:


> I regularly meet with a group of young officers who are Christians and have mostly been brought up in Evangelical traditions where they are impoverished by an understanding of Christ that is primarily one of ethics and duties. I placard before them the risen Christ and how faith vitally unites them to Him to fully pardon all their sins and provides unto them the resurrected life, knowledge, and wisdom for battle in this world.


Thats awesome! Some of us on thos board are not "professional" ministers and as such dont have the honor to share the Gospel to people who come to us (as Im sure you also do). I however am not a pastor, so I do the best i can to share the Gospel. Of these young officers, Im pleased to hear that you preach the Gospel to them


----------



## Deleted member 7239

Stope said:


> Thats awesome! Some of us on thos board are not "professional" ministers and as such dont have the honor to share the Gospel to people who come to us (as Im sure you also do). I however am not a pastor, so I do the best i can to share the Gospel. Of these young officers, Im pleased to hear that you preach the Gospel to them



I think there is probably disagreement among the Reformed and non-reformed as how we are to witness or share the gospel.

I heard that the Navigators founder Dawson Trotman (rabid Arminian) made a decision to share the gospel with a new person everyday. He literally took this to the point of getting out of bed in the middle of the night because he forgot to do it that day. He hailed a cab and the cab driver came to Christ that night.

This should make most of us feel lazy, especially when we realize God uses the gospel to save sinners and we have to ability to tell anyone we meet, but don't.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## KeithW

SolaScriptura said:


> I hope I don't get in trouble for this, but when I hear many of these answers I hear, "No one, but I can easily theologize myself out of feeling guilty about it."


That goes to the wrong extreme, because that is not what everyone who is discussing the presuppositions of the question are saying.

Eph. 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;​
Are you taking into account God does not make all men evangelists? Ignoring this is very thing that the "evangelical" movement outside of Reformed theology is doing. There is a lot of relatively recent church history demonstrating the problems this creates. These folks also teach that if you are not doing the work of evangelism you should be ashamed. These are the things being discussed and explained. 

There are all kinds of workers in the Lord. No one should ever be ashamed if they are not following roles God makes distinguishment between. While 1 Cor. 12 speaks of diversity of spiritual gifts, it also talks about a diversity of roles within the body. Each and every one of us is to be faithfully following God and doing whatever work God has placed before us in whatever situation God has placed us in. This is not,



SolaScriptura said:


> ...I can easily theologize myself out of feeling guilty about it."

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## earl40

Stope said:


> Please please please tell me you arent encouraging this brother to "leave it to the pros" when it comes to sharing the Gospel?



I am simply encouraging my brother to look into who is "sent" to "preach". 

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"


----------



## Alan D. Strange

Stope said:


> There are aspects of your response that seem just not Biblical. I mean that, and not in a sassy way. You say this and sound very ivory tower, but at the end of the day I find what you are saying going beyond what is written. Can you tell me specifically what I have said where it doesnt align with what scripture teaches?



Jason:

As I said at a couple of points, I appreciate your zeal and your desire to share Christ.

What "aspects of my response...seem just not Biblical" to you? I don't see anything "ivory towerish" at all about what I said.

You need to do more than say "seems just not Biblical" and that I am "going beyond what is written." How and where?

As to the last question (about where what you've said doesn't along with scriptures), I think that I did answer it. Recall that you didn't ask the question "How many have you lead to Christ this year?" by developing a scriptural rationale for such a question, except by citing Proverbs 11:30. I did point out that Proverbs 11:30, though invoked by some evangelicals as establishing a mandate for "soul-winning" (that is developed out of a distinctly non-Reformed soteriology), does not mean what they claim it means.

Jason, the method of "soul winning" that you ask about in your original post is simply not the way that the Reformed go about gospel witness. Several here, and most recently Lane and Rich, have set forth clearly how we do go about the task of gospel proclamation, witness and so forth in which we proclaim repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

I maintain that your original question, though stemming from right desires to see the gospel proclaimed to the saving of souls, is misguided. It is not an appropriate question given the convictions and commitments of this Board. It does not reflect a confessional approach to the question of Christian witness.

Peace,
Alan

Reactions: Like 10 | Amen 1


----------



## Deleted member 7239

I do think it's unclear what we should or shouldn't "leave to the pros".

I've struggled with this question a lot. 

As far as carrying out the great commission goes I think we would agree that baptizing and teaching aren't for all Christians. Going into all nations isn't for all Christians either. So where would be the command in the New Testament for all believers to teach and preach the gospel to everyone they meet?

It seems it's a matter of gifting as well as position that allows personal witnessing to flourish. People who are gifted in evangelism don't understand why everyone isn't.


----------



## Alan D. Strange

Jesse:

The Great Commission is given to the church as a whole--represented in Matthew 28 by the Apostles--and is to be carried out through those who are recognized by the church as possessing certain gifts. It is certain office-bearers who are called to serve, govern, and teach in the church: deacons, ruling elders, and ministers (or teaching elders). 

It is not given to all to baptize and preach (as you note), but only those called and ordained to the teaching office. This does not mean that the whole church is not to testify to Christ in the ordinary course of life and it does not mean that all should not stand ready to give an answer of the hope within. All must properly in their own sphere and place live for and testify to Christ. There is, however, no biblical mandate for all Christians "to teach and preach the gospel to everyone they meet." It's simply not there.

They should be Christlike in all their deportment and ready to testify to and of Him, but not to teach and preach the gospel. We must show forth Christ always, but only those called to preach are mandated and equipped to do so. This is simple, plain vanilla Reformed and Presbyterian ecclesiology and polity. 

Peace,
Alan

Reactions: Like 9


----------



## Deleted member 7239

Alan D. Strange said:


> Jesse:
> 
> The Great Commission is given to the church as a whole--represented in Matthew 28 by the Apostles--and is to be carried out through those who are recognized by the church as possessing certain gifts. It is certain office-bearers who are called to serve, govern, and teach in the church: deacons, ruling elders, and ministers (or teaching elders).
> 
> It is not given to all to baptize and preach (as you note), but only those called and ordained to the teaching office. This does not mean that the whole church is not to testify to Christ in the ordinary course of life and it does not mean that all should not stand ready to give an answer of the hope within. All must properly in their own sphere and place live for and testify to Christ. There is, however, no biblical mandate for all Christians "to teach and preach the gospel to everyone they meet." It's simply not there.
> 
> They should be Christlike in all their deportment and ready to testify to and of Him, but not to teach and preach the gospel. We must show forth Christ always, but only those called to preach are mandated and equipped to do so. This is simple, plain vanilla Reformed and Presbyterian ecclesiology and polity.
> 
> Peace,
> Alan



Yes--completely agree.

So "leading people to Christ" or soul-winning is actually an activity of the church as a whole. Not an individual pursuit. This is where it gets unclear for those of us unordained men who want to share the gospel as what Christ has done for us, yet don't want to work outside what scripture allows or compete with ordained officers/elders.

The problem with simply waiting to give an answer is that we might be waiting a while for anyone to ask us about the gospel. When should we take the initiative?


----------



## Jack K

Jason, I hope you are not too discouraged by the reactions against your question. Please understand that the way you phrased it, and the suggestion that we should count converts, sounds like it stems from some of the most misguided and harmful practices of America's revivalist tradition. Preachers who boast of their soul-saving numbers have done great harm, and many still do. I have had all too many cases where I've been asked to speak to kids at some church or Bible camp, and I've had to explain that I don't do altar calls. I'm happy to speak about Jesus and urge kids to practice faith in him, but if the camp is hoping to use me to boost the number of "saved kids" they can claim on their yearly report, they're asking the wrong guy to speak. Many camps and such get downright angry when I say this, and they suggest I must be opposed to conversions. They're wrong. I'm very hopeful God will work both first-time and continued faith, but I won't try to count conversions and I'm wary of manufacturing false ones.

Still, I think your interest in celebrating the evangelistic progress of the church is a good impulse. Generally speaking, when we can, we count what we care about. So a church that keeps track of new professions of faith, both those from within the church family and those from unbelievers brought in, is counting and celebrating a good thing. Publishing a list may get dicey due to the temptation to make comparisons, but many Reformed denominations keep and publish such statistics, and a pastor ought to be able to guard his heart enough that he can handle it.

Furthermore, a pastor who continually reports no outsiders brought into the church might do well to examine his ministry. Part of his duty _is_ to call the lost to Christ. Now, there are many reasons why a pastor reporting few new professions might still be doing God's work faithfully, and used by God for valuable work in Christ's kingdom. He should know this; he should not feel ashamed or discouraged. But in some cases it may be that, having examined his ministry, he finds he does not have the heart for the lost that he should have. It this is the case, he needs to know that too.

Reactions: Like 5


----------



## lynnie

I have had many conversations for years, with younger people ( teens, 20s) who do not get saved. These are people that appear to love and respect my husband and I- relatives mainly, but also friends of my kids.

I intellectually agree with the Reformed position here, but emotionally I feel awful thinking about these people going to hell, and feeling like my witnessing is so inadequate and without power or else they would see the light. I pray and pray and pray for the Lord to draw them...and outward fruit is just not there. It is a very hard subject for me, and one where I grieve. Maybe I am on some emotional level a functional Arminian, I don't really know.......


----------



## jw

Stope said:


> Are not we all called to be involved in "evangelism", that is, to share the Gospel and be a light on a hill and salt of the earth?


You are setting up a false dilemma (i.e. you cannot be salt and light without being an evangelist) by equating things that ought not be equated.
_
Evangelism_, biblically defined, is the proclamation of the Gospel by those whom God has called, have been trained, examined, and vetted, and then commissioned thereunto. In Romans 10, Paul (thus the Holy Ghost) very clearly points out that the preaching/sharing/evangelizing of the Good News is carried out by - preachers. And that _this _is the work of ministers. In 2 Corinthians 5, Paul is saying _we _signifying ministers, testingfy to _ye_ (that is the church members), and says to them, 'God hath given to _*us *_(that is, _we _ministers) the ministry of reconciliation . . . . [W]e (that is, we ministers) are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech _you_ (that is, you church members) by us (that is, ministers): we (that is, we ministers) pray _you_ (that is, Church members) in Christ’s stead, be ye (that is, Church members) reconciled to God." So Paul (therefore, the Holy Ghost) is unequivocal in designating to whom the ministry of reconciliation is given to be executed by (the ministers), and to whom are the recipients of said ministry (the church, or those coming into the church, etc.).

That ministry, the proclamation of the good news, _evangelism_, is _not_ the same thing as "be[ing] light on a hill." Is every man in the church without exception's being salt and light such that men would "hear our good words and glorify our Father which is in heaven"? No. It's that they may see our "good works and glorify our Father which is in heaven." We ought not confound the two, and take away the very churchly ordinance of gospel preaching.

As Professor Strange has intimated, as well as others, we should be ready to give an answer for the hope we have, and a defense of the faith, and a good word in season to those who need it, but these are not the teaching/preaching of the gospel. The "each one reach one" method is not biblical, and serves to put a burden on those who should not be carrying such a burden, nor _may_ they. By all means, let every Christian be excellent in his calling, knowledgeable and practitioners of the scriptures, much in prayer for the ministry of the church, supporting financially and other lawful ways, inviting others to church to hear the gospel preached, and caring one for another as is our duty; but let us cast out the egalitarian diminishment of the Ministry of Reconciliation, which tends toward a decisionalistic, revivalistic, threshold Christianity not rooted in the picture that the Scripture gives us of our union and communion with the Lord Jesus Christ.

As for my original answer, someone's regeneration, conversion, and placing of saving faith in Christ is not something to which I am privy. There could be some who make a credible profession, for a long long time, give many outward evidences of having been a genuine pious earnest Christian but, alas, apostatize never to return. It would simply be indiscernible to put a number as to how many have been "led to Christ."

None of this is meant to be a discouragement for the desire of seeing the church being built up soul-by-soul, but rather a desire to steer one's thinking in the more biblical direction of the how the King has ordered and continues to order His Kingdom.

P.S. - I think Ben should be in trouble.

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## OPC'n

I'm super glad this post was started. I've learned a lot from what everyone has said. I don't have to feel guilty about not going around to everyone at work and sharing the Gospel with them. I only have to be prepared to tell them the Gospel if the situation comes up, and live a godly life for them to see God's work within me. That's a huge burden lifted off my shoulders. I do hope someone does ask me about Christ so that I can share the Gospel with them. I also hope I'm prepared to answer hard questions.


----------



## greenbaggins

OPC'n said:


> I'm super glad this post was started. I've learned a lot from what everyone has said. I don't have to feel guilty about not going around to everyone at work and sharing the Gospel with them. I only have to be prepared to tell them the Gospel if the situation comes up, and live a godly life for them to see God's work within me. That's a huge burden lifted off my shoulders. I do hope someone does ask me about Christ so that I can share the Gospel with them. I also hope I'm prepared to answer hard questions.



One thing I always encourage in my flock whenever I can is to target people for prayer. Pray for specific people, and pray for an opportunity, and pray that the Lord will show you when the opportunity is there. I don't think we have to be passive in sharing the gospel in the sense that we would always have to wait for someone else to ask us. But I do also believe that building relationships is a good thing to do. I think evangelism is more effective when built on relationships. Sharing the gospel with a stranger can sometimes be effective. However, people need to know that we love them, in general, for the light to be evident to them.

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Semper Fidelis

Stope said:


> Thats awesome! Some of us on thos board are not "professional" ministers and as such dont have the honor to share the Gospel to people who come to us (as Im sure you also do). I however am not a pastor, so I do the best i can to share the Gospel. Of these young officers, Im pleased to hear that you preach the Gospel to them


I'm not a professional minister. I'm a ruling elder and a father. I go to the people and share the Gospel. They do not all come to me. I'm licensed to preach but I'm not a teaching elder. I get to preach but it's not my full-time profession. My point is that "leading people to Christ" takes many forms in the Christian life but it is rarely an apologetic exercise where the person makes a decision to follow Christ there on the spot (although that's happened). It occurs in very ordinary life on life work in the Church even for those who have long professed faith in Christ.


----------



## VictorBravo

Similar to Rich, I am not full time preacher, but I preach when circumstances and my church call upon me. In my day job, I deal with sin up close and personal. I won't go into the horrendous stories and circumstances that God puts before me every week, but I can say that he places people of real need in my path. People possessed by drugs, possessed by pride, possessed by stupidity, what have you. Many of them face the most serious consequences of our criminal justice system.

I do not preach to these people. I'm their appointed lawyer tasked by the Court with providing them a legal defense. But that does not stop me from getting to know them, spending time with them, exploring their condition, and broaching the topic of sin, its reality and consequences. Although I want to evangelize, as it were, that isn't the goal and I will not disrupt my appointed task with what may be perceived by many as a superficial canned spiel. Virtually everyone in American jails has "heard the gospel." Many think it's a good notion, some will mock and change the subject. The last thing they want is a lawyer who will spout all the pious things they've been told before instead of giving a hard look at their case.

So the goal is to know these people so I can do my job. But in doing that, often the door to repentance cracks open, if only a little bit. I will teach what I can when that happens, and pray with and for them. 

Realistically, in the thousands of cases I've had over just a few years, I can count on one hand people who appear to have made a real profession of faith and who currently attend a church. God knows if the countless others were influenced through my dealings with them. I do know, personally, that I was just like most of them spiritually, and I recall how a simple sermon in a liberal church was instrumental in my conversion some 20 years later.

We are all instruments in God's hands. Let us be mindful and careful in how we apply ourselves to his glory. That often means simply to work hard and well at what God has appointed us to do while being sensitive to the plight of others. We should always be ready to provide truth in season. Sometimes that means simply clearing up the many misconceptions that people have about Christianity and cutting through the banal easy-believing presentation that almost everyone has heard.

Reactions: Like 5


----------



## Alan D. Strange

I know this...if I were in trouble with the law and got Vic Bottomly as my court-appointed attorney, it would likely be the best thing that ever happened to me and the best spiritual opportunity of my life! 

Peace,
Alan

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## JTB.SDG

None that I know of. But God knows things I don't.


----------



## VictorBravo

Alan D. Strange said:


> I know this...if I were in trouble with the law and got Vic Bottomly as my court-appointed attorney, it would likely be the best thing that ever happened to me and the best spiritual opportunity of my life!
> 
> Peace,
> Alan



That's extremely kind, Alan. Often I think my nature and inclination are more like that of the unjust judge in Luke 18. May God keep us when we don't want to be kept.


----------



## Edward

VictorBravo said:


> Realistically, in the thousands of cases I've had over just a few years, I can count on one hand people who appear to have made a real profession of faith and who currently attend a church.



I don't know how it is up there, but when I was in a similar line of work in my youth, it was not rare for a defendant to show up for sentencing with a preacher in tow ready to testify how he'd led the former miscreant to Christ, how the criminal was a changed man (due to the preacher's influence), and how he should be given a second chance to contribute to society. I was never sure if it spoke more to the preacher's healthy ego or lack of discernment.


----------



## C. M. Sheffield

The OP asked: How many have you led to Christ this year? 

It would depend on what one means by leading someone to Christ. If one defines it as pointing sinners toward Christ as the only sufficient Saviour, then I might say hundreds. If one defines it as someone being converted to Christ as a result of one's efforts, then I would be reluctant to give any number except perhaps the two young ladies I've baptized this year. But I would be uncomfortable saying "I led them to Christ" in a way that would suggest I was primarily responsible for their conversion. I believe, by God's grace, I played a part. But they were raised by godly parents in a godly congregation of faithful men and women who diligently prayed for their conversion and pointed them to Christ by their words and actions. And they have sat under other godly minister who have dealt faithfully with their souls in the preaching of God's word. There really are too many factors for one to feel they could or should take credit for the conversion of sinners. Let us be content to labour faithfully in our Mater's service and give him all the glory for the increase we are blessed to see.

Reactions: Like 1


----------

