# J.I. Packer quote on the laity



## Pergamum (Mar 3, 2008)

_"In response to the question, “What is the biggest challenge for Christian ministers in the 21st century?’ Dr. J. I. Packer answered; “I think every minister must insist that each member of his congregation be involved in ministry. Then the local church can become a body of serving people and united as a team of ministers. We have too many people who say, ‘I support the church with my money, and I’m there on Sunday. What more do you want of me?’ The answer of course is, ‘We want a great deal more of you! Have you awakened to the fact that you are in ministry? Are you trying to take responsibility to help someone else move forward spiritually?’ .... everyone has a spiritual ministry to and responsibility for other people.”"_

By: J. I. Packer
Source: Reformed Theological Seminary newsletter, Spring 1999, pg. 10-11



THOUGHTS?


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## MW (Mar 3, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> THOUGHTS?



I would go back one step further to a more generic problem, which is trying to help people see that being a Christian is full time work, that we serve Christ in our ordinary jobs, that families are seminaries of Christian learning, that we are our brother's keeper, and every believer has faith apportioned him to promote the spiritual growth of the body of Christ in word and deed.


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## Pergamum (Mar 3, 2008)

Good thoughts brother. 

How should this be taught from the pulpits and how do we balance this very real truth in Packer's quote with many evangelicals who promote an "every person should be a missionary" approach. 

There does seem to be a balance and Packers quote appears true, even while reminders that every person is not a minister are valid. 

How do we rightly mobilize the laymen while preserving proper roles?


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## AV1611 (Mar 4, 2008)

I would want to know what Packer means by "ministry".


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## Pergamum (Mar 4, 2008)

I think he means serving other people. In other books he always spoke of the special role of the Minister (big M). So to "minister" probably means to serve others within one's sphere of calling.

Would you not agree that it is the calling of every Christian to serve others in their own spheres and according to their stations in life?


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## ChristopherPaul (Mar 4, 2008)

The job of serving is not just for the appointed Deacons. All Christians are to be deacons; those called to the office are to lead and manage the collected effort of all the saints in ministry.


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## JBaldwin (Mar 4, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> Good thoughts brother.
> 
> How should this be taught from the pulpits and how do we balance this very real truth in Packer's quote with many evangelicals who promote an "every person should be a missionary" approach.
> 
> ...



What Winzer has said seems to be the key. Many people do not feel they have any responsibility to "ministry" apart from what they do on Sunday (which has already been pointed out). Personally, I think it goes back to the indoctrination that many have received through the world's influences, and it manifests itself in these types of thinking: 

1. My life is compartmentalized. I worship on Sunday; I work during the weekdays; I play and do work around the house on Saturdays. The world thinks this way, and most Christians have subconsiously adopted this thinking rather than viewing life as always for Christ. 

2. We pay the missionaries, we pay the preacher, we pay the church staff. They will do the visitation, the ministering to the sick and take the Gospel to the lost. It is not my duty. This is also how the world operates in business. The higher ups pay people to do their work for them while they sit in ivory towers and administrate. (Sadly, I think some pastors have adopted this viewpoint)

As a lay person who feels that my responsibility to God is 24/7, I am frustrated when I encounter these kinds of attitudes. As we are going, we are to minister to those around as, and as God gives us opportunity. This is not "preaching" the gospel. It is simply "being Christ" to those around us, another way of putting it is living as Christ would live in the world, all the time. When my neighbor comes to me with a problem, I seek to minister to that need as I believe the Lord Himself would have done. If that gives me an opportunity to tell that person about Christ, then I will tell them. 

Though this kind of teaching can be brought out from the pulpit and should be, I believe a lot of it goes back to how families live, the examples they give to their children and how much we allow the influences of the world to mold our thinking. We are more "worldly" than we think we are.


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## Yodas_Prodigy (May 7, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> _"In response to the question, “What is the biggest challenge for Christian ministers in the 21st century?’ Dr. J. I. Packer answered; “I think every minister must insist that each member of his congregation be involved in ministry. Then the local church can become a body of serving people and united as a team of ministers. We have too many people who say, ‘I support the church with my money, and I’m there on Sunday. What more do you want of me?’ The answer of course is, ‘We want a great deal more of you! Have you awakened to the fact that you are in ministry? Are you trying to take responsibility to help someone else move forward spiritually?’ .... everyone has a spiritual ministry to and responsibility for other people.”"_
> 
> By: J. I. Packer
> Source: Reformed Theological Seminary newsletter, Spring 1999, pg. 10-11
> ...



I guess that I am a little shocked at some of the responses in this thread. Every person who is a believer should be involved in some form of ministry whether it is evangelism, missionary work, apologetics, children's church, Gideons, Wycliff, small groups, etc etc etc.

Usually, in most churches, it is the 20-80 rule. And that is most unfortunate. 

I do wonder if our pews are just full of unbelievers hoping to get in by going to church and being good people? Or, do we have a bunch of spiritual babes who are fat and sassy?


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## Jimmy the Greek (May 8, 2008)

I agree with Packer's sentiment in the OP quote. A local church should provide an environment (with appropriate teaching) that encourages all congregants in the exercize of spiritual gifts, personal ministry, service, and involvment in church life.

Sitting in the pew waiting to be "ministered to" is a telling symptom in today's church.


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## Contra_Mundum (May 8, 2008)

The logic of "everybody's a minister" is ... that there will be no "Minister."

Of course, we want everyone to have an opportunity for various forms of "involvement" in the communal life of the church. But what about THE Ministry? Is it a reality? If it is, then the "pew sitters" (as they have been termed) actually have a _right_ to expect their Minister to give 100% to his task. And their elders to give 100% to theirs. And the deacons too.

But I don't recall the Word of God listing the job descriptions of anyone else. So, the creation of various "ministries" in the church is ... just man-made positions. Holding people accountable for spiritual negligence, when God hasn't, is a species of Phariseeism.

As was already pointed out, there is a doctrine of callings (or vocations). Some are called to the ministry. Everyone else is called to "work with their own hands," so that they might have something to give to others in need. Putting someone on guilt-trip for not "contributing" at church, instead of praying and waiting for the Spirit of God to move hearts to expand the church's reach, is the wrong tactic. Trying to turn the church into an activity center is foolish.

The people are *supposed* to come to the SERVICE. Whose service are we talking about? GOD'S. Yes, that's right, as a matter of fact, it _IS_ all about coming to church and get get get get get. Receive Receive Receive Receive Receive. That is EXACTLY what salvation is all about. It is the job of THE Ministry to GIVE to the people in the pews, on behalf of God.

That the people respond dialogically (by speaking back to God) is perfectly reasonable. But that is the WORSHIP aspect of the "worship/service." Perhaps we would be better instructed by calling it a Service/worship.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pergamum (May 8, 2008)

Contra_Mundum said:


> The logic of "everybody's a minister" is ... that there will be no "Minister."
> 
> Of course, we want everyone to have an opportunity for various forms of "involvement" in the communal life of the church. But what about THE Ministry? Is it a reality? If it is, then the "pew sitters" (as they have been termed) actually have a _right_ to expect their Minister to give 100% to his task. And their elders to give 100% to theirs. And the deacons too.
> 
> ...



Every Christian has a ministry (small m) within their respective sphere of life - even though God calls only a few into THE Ministry (big M). I would rather stress the positive and emphasize what people CAN do rather than what they don't need to do. We receive, receive, recieve so that, overflowing with gratefulness, we go out and serve, serve, serve.


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## KMK (May 8, 2008)

Paul called 'giving with simplicity' a spiritual gift. Yet some have implied that if you exercise that gift within the body that you are somehow not contributing as much as he who heads up the 'motorcycle ministry' or whatever.

Question: How would a Pastor know whether his sheep are active in ministry? Does he follow them home and to their jobs and on their vacations? The church is supposed to equip sheep to be ministers, but it is not designed to provide all of the _opportunities_ for ministry.


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## Timothy William (May 8, 2008)

Yodas_Prodigy said:


> I guess that I am a little shocked at some of the responses in this thread. Every person who is a believer should be involved in some form of ministry whether it is evangelism, missionary work, apologetics, children's church, Gideons, Wycliff, small groups, etc etc etc.
> 
> Usually, in most churches, it is the 20-80 rule. And that is most unfortunate.



Is there anything in Scripture which suggests that all Christians are to be involved in some formal "ministry"?

This is a dangerous view for two reasons, it devalues all work done outside of a ministry capacity, and it leads to the view that only those who are "doing something" in the church are really important, and unless you lead a home group or children's church or are on one of the interminable list of rosters you aren't really contributing to the church and, by extension, aren't really contributing as a Christian. The Christian witness to the world - which for most of us who aren't church officers, happens outside any formal church programs - gets sidelined.


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## Davidius (May 8, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> We have too many people who say, ‘I support the church with my money, and I’m there on Sunday. What more do you want of me?’



Yep, that sounds pretty much like what I'd say if asked why I'm not involved in my own "ministry." 

...though I might say it more like this: "I love being there on Sunday, fellowshipping with God's people, attending to the preaching of the Word and hiding it away in my heart, and receiving the Lord's Supper for my edification. I love praying together. I love the study of the WCF that we do once a month in the evening. I carry these things into the world with me during the week so that I can be a strong witness to my colleagues, friends, and family. Why must you so deceitfully describe with a statement such as "I support my chuch with my money, and I'm there on Sunday. What more do you want of me?" making me sound so trivial and impious?



Pergie's quote said:


> The answer of course is, ‘*We want a great deal more of you!* Have you awakened to the fact that you are in ministry? Are you trying to take responsibility to help someone else move forward spiritually?’ .... everyone has a spiritual ministry to and responsibility for other people.”"[/I]



Well, it's unfortunate that, in J.I. Packer's opinion, the Church wants a great deal more of me, because so does my secular calling that God has appointed me to do to the best of ability, and so does my apartment, which didn't come with an automatic upkeep system, and so do my two jobs, and so will my family in about 3 weeks. Work six days; rest one day.



Yodas_Prodigy said:


> I guess that I am a little shocked at some of the responses in this thread. Every person who is a believer should be involved in some form of ministry whether it is evangelism, missionary work, apologetics, children's church, Gideons, Wycliff, small groups, etc etc etc.
> 
> I do wonder if our pews are just full of unbelievers hoping to get in by going to church and being good people? Or, do we have a bunch of spiritual babes who are fat and sassy?



Or perhaps we have a bunch of pharisees who would put unscriptural burdens on other believers in order to enforce some false notion of piety and duty. How about lazy ministers? O, the possibilities!

As you have been wont to demand in other threads, where is your scriptural support for the assertion that "every believer should be involved in some for of ministry"? 



Contra_Mundum said:


> The logic of "everybody's a minister" is ... that there will be no "Minister."
> 
> Of course, we want everyone to have an opportunity for various forms of "involvement" in the communal life of the church. But what about THE Ministry? Is it a reality? If it is, then the "pew sitters" (as they have been termed) actually have a _right_ to expect their Minister to give 100% to his task. And their elders to give 100% to theirs. And the deacons too.
> 
> ...



 There are so many good points here that I'm not even going to attempt to italicize or bold them all. 

I, as a lay-person responsible for his studies, jobs, home, and soon-to-be-family am sick and tired of this kind of talk. I thought I was done with this when I left the charismatic church. During the Reformation we did away with this halfway monasticism and allowed those who aren't called to work in the Church feel like we're still doing something important to God. It is obvious that the laity is to have fellowship with believers, speak words of kindness, pray with and for others, etc., but that is NOT THE SAME THING as having an actual position or "ministry" within the Church. If you want more ministries in your church, elect more elders and deacons who have the time, skills, and desire to minister in such capacities. Stop guilt-tripping the rest of us.

It concerns me that the propagation of unconfessional ideas has been disciplined and stifled so vigorously in other forums on this board, but when believers try to unconfessionally yoke other believers on matters of music, alcohol, literature, and this sort of thing, we have to tolerate it. Why should this discussion even be necessary here among Reformed Christians? Why is Yoda allowed to question the salvation of believers who don't have their own special corner of ministry in the Church? Go read Luther. Go listen to the White Horse Inn.


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## timmopussycat (May 8, 2008)

Davidius said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > We have too many people who say, ‘I support the church with my money, and I’m there on Sunday. What more do you want of me?’
> ...



I've got two points to make here. 1) I think this is a rare Packerian infelicity of expression. Knowing where he is coming from, (Anglican background and Regent College) I am willing to bet that JIP would say that "Christ wants a good deal more of you" more exactly expresses his intent. Keep in mind that the man has taught for over 20 years at Regent College where the teaching program is "every member ministry" in a sense I will define below.



Yodas_Prodigy said:


> I guess that I am a little shocked at some of the responses in this thread. Every person who is a believer should be involved in some form of ministry whether it is evangelism, missionary work, apologetics, children's church, Gideons, Wycliff, small groups, etc etc etc.
> 
> I do wonder if our pews are just full of unbelievers hoping to get in by going to church and being good people? Or, do we have a bunch of spiritual babes who are fat and sassy?





> Or perhaps we have a bunch of pharisees who would put unscriptural burdens on other believers in order to enforce some false notion of piety and duty. How about lazy ministers? O, the possibilities!



Given the state of the Anglican church in North America, JIP is pointing out what many evangelicals in that church setting have for years identified as a real problem. Although it is mostly in the anglo-catholic and liberal wings, it is not unknown among the evangelicals. 



Davidius said:


> As you have been wont to demand in other threads, where is your scriptural support for the assertion that "every believer should be involved in some for of ministry"?



2) Before the discussion gets too heated, please remember that, for evanglical Anglicans and many evangelicals and everybody in any way involved with Regent College, "ministry" is a word that has two meanings not just one. One meaning is the providing of teaching given in sermons, the other is serving "one another in love" (Gal 5.13) engaging in "works of service" in various ways," both inside and outside the church "so that the body of Christ may be built up" (Eph. 4:12). Regent College began on the premise that laymen could profit by training to be more effective Christians not only inside (e.g. Sunday School teachers, church adminstrators) but especially outside the church, working as Christians in the world. To this day it offers the Diploma of Christian Studies for such people and that Diploma systematically exposes the students to a very well thought out and practiced version of the Reformed doctrine of vocations. Consider whether or not Dr. P is using the word "minister" in this latter sense.



Contra_Mundum said:


> The logic of "everybody's a minister" is ... that there will be no "Minister."
> 
> Of course, we want everyone to have an opportunity for various forms of "involvement" in the communal life of the church. But what about THE Ministry? Is it a reality? If it is, then the "pew sitters" (as they have been termed) actually have a _right_ to expect their Minister to give 100% to his task. And their elders to give 100% to theirs. And the deacons too.
> 
> ...



That Paul seems to restrict the term to the teaching ministry does not mean that the bible as a whole does so. Biblically, we can't restrict the term "ministry" to the authoritative teaching function in the church. It is also used of service functions: we find it used when Martha was overworking (Luke 10:40), of daily food distribution (Acts 6:1) and charitable relief (Acts 11:29). Even though we don't have job descriptions of these ministries, it is clear that the word can be used to mean a non-teaching or non-authoritative action or actions.



Davidius said:


> There are so many good points here that I'm not even going to attempt to italicize or bold them all.
> 
> I, as a lay-person responsible for his studies, jobs, home, and soon-to-be-family am sick and tired of this kind of talk. I thought I was done with this when I left the charismatic church. During the Reformation we did away with this halfway monasticism and allowed those who aren't called to work in the Church feel like we're still doing something important to God. It is obvious that the laity is to have fellowship with believers, speak words of kindness, pray with and for others, etc., but that is NOT THE SAME THING as having an actual position or "ministry" within the Church. If you want more ministries in your church, elect more elders. Stop guilt-tripping the rest of us.
> 
> It concerns me that the propagation of unconfessional ideas has been disciplined and stifled so vigorously in other forums on this board, but when it comes to believers trying to unconfessionally yoke other believers on matters of music, alcohol, literature, and this sort of thing we have to tolerate it. Why should this discussion even be necessary here among Reformed Christians? Go read Luther. Go listen to the White Horse Inn.



Given the background from which he is coming, I don't believe for a second that JIP was trying to do anything of the sort. As noted above Regent is a college that trains both lay Christians as well as pastors in the Reformed doctrine of vocation. And having seen Dr. P operate in that environment, I know he has full sympathy with that doctrine.


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## Davidius (May 8, 2008)

Thank you, Tim, for your charity and for setting the example of believing the best about people and giving them the benefit of the doubt. 

I am more concerned with Pergie's use of the quote than the quote itself, because I believe I know, based on many previous discussions, what mindset Pergie is advancing by using the quote. Even more than this am I concerned with Yoda's questioning the salvation of those who aren't formally involved in apologetics, missionary work, children's church (which doesn't even need to exist, but that's for another thread), or, here's the best part, Wycliffe or the Gideons. Packer may be guilty of a mere "infelicity of expression" (to use your terminology), but Yoda's assertion is quite clear. I'll quote it here again so it will be clear to what I am referring:



Yoda said:


> Every person who is a believer should be involved in some form of ministry whether it is evangelism, missionary work, apologetics, children's church, Gideons, Wycliff, small groups, etc etc etc.
> 
> I do wonder if our pews are just full of unbelievers hoping to get in by going to church and being good people? Or, do we have a bunch of spiritual babes who are fat and sassy?



Note how he moves from adding to God's commandments to questioning the salvation or spiritual growth of our congregants. Your evaluation of the state of the Anglican communion in North America is irrelevant to this nonsense. Yoda's words have nothing to do with Anglicanism or Regent college. 



> That Paul seems to restrict the term to the teaching ministry does not mean that the bible as a whole does so. Biblically, we can't restrict the term "ministry" to the authoritative teaching function in the church. It is also used of service functions: we find it used when Martha was overworking (Luke 10:40), of daily food distribution (Acts 6:1) and charitable relief (Acts 11:29). Even though we don't have job descriptions of these ministries, it is clear that the word can be used to mean a non-teaching or non-authoritative action or actions.



I totally agree with you here. This is the point I intended to make in the last paragraph of my first response. Doing good deeds for believers and unbelievers outside the church, on our own time, in accordance with our means as opportunities present themselves, is the duty of every Christian. This is not, however, the same as saying that every believer has to be involved with some Church program with consistent quotas of time and energy such as are required of the ministers.


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## VictorBravo (May 8, 2008)

Davidius said:


> Or perhaps we have a bunch of pharisees who would put unscriptural burdens on other believers in order to enforce some false notion of piety and duty. How about lazy ministers? O, the possibilities!
> 
> As you have been wont to demand in other threads, where is your scriptural support for the assertion that "every believer should be involved in some for of ministry"?





> It concerns me that the propagation of unconfessional ideas has been disciplined and stifled so vigorously in other forums on this board, but when believers try to unconfessionally yoke other believers on matters of music, alcohol, literature, and this sort of thing, we have to tolerate it.



Steady, Davidius. For one thing, the phrase "as you have been wont to demand in other threads" is misleading. Yoda has posted 11 times at this point. Most of those have not been theological. Twice he asked questions. 

Secondly, you are imputing motives that Pergy specifically addressed in his second post.

Third, remember, this is a discussion board. People bring up legitimate questions and they get addressed. The moderators do watch that things are not "propagated", but we don't shut down discussion over every statement brought up in apparent good faith, even if it seems to be unconfessional. Otherwise, there would be very little discussion.


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## Yodas_Prodigy (May 8, 2008)

victorbravo said:


> Third, remember, this is a discussion board. People bring up legitimate questions and they get addressed. The moderators do watch that things are not "propagated", but we don't shut down discussion over every statement brought up in apparent good faith, even if it seems to be unconfessional. Otherwise, there would be very little discussion.



My apologies if my statements seem Unconfessional. I certainly am teachable.


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## Yodas_Prodigy (May 8, 2008)

Davidius said:


> As you have been wont to demand in other threads, where is your scriptural support for the assertion that "every believer should be involved in some for of ministry"?



I'll supply your requested answer some time this evening. 

Blessings,

YP


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## Yodas_Prodigy (May 8, 2008)

*Scriptural Support*



Davidius said:


> Or perhaps we have a bunch of pharisees who would put unscriptural burdens on other believers in order to enforce some false notion of piety and duty. How about lazy ministers? O, the possibilities!
> 
> As you have been wont to demand in other threads, where is your scriptural support for the assertion that "every believer should be involved in some for of ministry"?



The NT demonstrates two areas of ministry within the local church. All believers are a part of informal ministering roles. Some believers hold formal and official offices of ministry. 

The official ministers are obviously overseers and deacons (Phil. 1:1). The term Bishop and elders is also used (Titus 1:5, 7). We all have a good grasp of these leaders responsibilities.

These officers of the church should also facilitate the informal ministries (Ephesians 4:11-13). 

When both of these groups of ministers are working properly together, the body of Christ grows to maturity in faith and love (Ephesians 4:16). And, they accomplish their specific form of service as granted by God’s grace (Ephesians 4:7, 12).

No Christian is without some gift of ministry (1 Corinthians 12:7; Ephesians 4:7). It is therefore every believer’s responsibility to find, develop. And fully use whatever capacities for service God has given.

*The Reformation Study Bible by R.C. Sproul and Keith Mathison on Page 1711 was my source.*

1 Cor 12:7-8
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 
NKJV

Eph 4:7-16

7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8 Therefore He says:
"When He ascended on high,He led captivity captive,And gave gifts to men." 
9(Now this, "He ascended" — what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) 
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head — Christ — 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. 
NKJV


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## Yodas_Prodigy (May 8, 2008)

Timothy William said:


> Yodas_Prodigy said:
> 
> 
> > I guess that I am a little shocked at some of the responses in this thread. Every person who is a believer should be involved in some form of ministry whether it is evangelism, missionary work, apologetics, children's church, Gideons, Wycliff, small groups, etc etc etc.
> ...



Hi Timothy,

I understand your concern. Perhaps I am viewing this from a different angle. See the link below where I used Sproul and Mathison as a source: 

J.I. Packer quote on the laity - The PuritanBoard


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## Contra_Mundum (May 8, 2008)

Don't like to disagree with erudite masters, but I think the older translators and commentators had Eph 4:12 correct, and it's been corrupted since, losing that useful comma:

"For the perfecting of the saints,{pause} for the work of the ministry,{pause} for the edifying of the body of Christ:"


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## Pergamum (May 9, 2008)

timmopussycat said:


> Davidius said:
> 
> 
> > Pergamum said:
> ...




Ha, you wrote the phrase, "rare Packerian infelicity of expression.." 

That is a pretty funny, neat, or strange way to put it.


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## Pergamum (May 9, 2008)

Davidius said:


> Thank you, Tim, for your charity and for setting the example of believing the best about people and giving them the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> I am more concerned with Pergie's use of the quote than the quote itself, because I believe I know, based on many previous discussions, what mindset Pergie is advancing by using the quote. Even more than this am I concerned with Yoda's questioning the salvation of those who aren't formally involved in apologetics, missionary work, children's church (which doesn't even need to exist, but that's for another thread), or, here's the best part, Wycliffe or the Gideons. Packer may be guilty of a mere "infelicity of expression" (to use your terminology), but Yoda's assertion is quite clear. I'll quote it here again so it will be clear to what I am referring:
> 
> ...




Davidius:

WoW! You mentioned Tim's post as "thinking the best of other people" and then constrasted that with a reference to me and my "mindset".... 

Is that thinking the best of me?




Your quote, _"Doing good deeds for believers and unbelievers outside the church, on our own time, in accordance with our means as opportunities present themselves, is the duty of every Christian. This is not, however, the same as saying that every believer has to be involved with some Church program with consistent quotas of time and energy such as are required of the ministers."_ Is EXACTLY what I believe. It seems as if we agree.



There should be no "pew potatoes" but churches are not to "give busywork" to their people either or "guilt" peopel into imagined services to God. Loving your God given web of relations is the *ministry* to which most people are called. And this minisrering to others is...well, ministry (though not THE Ministry, to which only a few are called). So, we are to support and encourage an "Every member ministry" even though all members are not Ministers, and emphasize that we minister in our God-given contexts and are intentional in our relationships.


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## Pergamum (May 9, 2008)

P.S. why the strong reaction anyhow?


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## Yodas_Prodigy (May 9, 2008)

*1 Peter 4:10-11*



Contra_Mundum said:


> Don't like to disagree with erudite masters, but I think the older translators and commentators had Eph 4:12 correct, and it's been corrupted since, losing that useful comma:
> 
> "For the perfecting of the saints,{pause} for the work of the ministry,{pause} for the edifying of the body of Christ:"



I'm not sure if this is in response to my post. I think it is. So I will respond with this:

1 Peter 4:10-11

10 As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11 If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God. If anyone ministers, let him do it as with the ability which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. 
NKJV


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## Contra_Mundum (May 9, 2008)

I was disagreeing on this point, not with you so much, Jedi master (that only just now occurred to me), as with the RCSprouls and JIPackers, "masters in Israel".

Certainly agree that we should all be exercising the general office of believer, and serving/ministering to one another. I just don't think Eph 4:12 is speaking of the labors of pastors and teachers as equipping the saints for doing the pastor's job (the ministry). The verse, as it read (in my opinion properly) for over 350 years, said that Christ gave to the church pastors and teachers to DO the "work of the Ministry."

Whatever 1Pet4:10f says--and I see that text as making progression from the general office (v10), to the special office (v11, which speaks _explicitly_ then of those who preach, thus referencing THE ministry in the second verse)--whatever it says, doesn't change Eph. 4:12, whatever it says.

Peace.


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## Yodas_Prodigy (May 9, 2008)

Contra_Mundum said:


> Whatever 1Pet4:10f says--and I see that text as making progression from the general office (v10), to the special office (v11, which speaks _explicitly_ then of those who preach, thus referencing THE ministry in the second verse)--whatever it says, doesn't change Eph. 4:12, whatever it says.
> 
> Peace.



I understand. After posting, I realized that I wasn't viewing your statement in proper context. Thanks for your input.


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## timmopussycat (May 9, 2008)

Contra_Mundum said:


> I was disagreeing on this point, not with you so much, Jedi master (that only just now occurred to me), as with the RCSprouls and JIPackers, "masters in Israel".
> 
> Certainly agree that we should all be exercising the general office of believer, and serving/ministering to one another. I just don't think Eph 4:12 is speaking of the labors of pastors and teachers as equipping the saints for doing the pastor's job (the ministry).



You seem to imply here that JIP and RCS would read Eph. 4:12 "as equipping the saints for doing the pastor's job (the ministry)." I don't know RCS's take on the matter but I know JIP does not so teach. Nor have I ever heard or read anyone in the "every member ministry" camp so exegete the verse as to teach that the saints are to do the pastor's job.

Rather, what the EMM camp is saying is that the teaching ministries are given "for the equipping of the saints for works of service, to the building up of the body of Christ." The idea being that *both* pastoral teaching and the saints' works of service are needed blessings which, when supplied, *will result* in the building up of the body. Paul makes the point explicit in v.16 where Christ causes the growth of the whole body through "that which every joint supplies according to the proper working of each individual part". Therefore, to paraphrase Paul to the Corinthians, the mouth cannot say to the hand, 'I have no need of you' when it comes to building up the body.

May I suggest, sir, that you may be fighting a straw man?


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## Amazing Grace (May 9, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> Ha, you wrote the phrase, "rare Packerian infelicity of expression.."
> 
> That is a pretty funny, neat, or strange way to put it.



I do not even know what it means..


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## timmopussycat (May 9, 2008)

Amazing Grace said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > Ha, you wrote the phrase, "rare Packerian infelicity of expression.."
> ...



Infelicity means "unfortunate". I suggested that JIP chose an unfortunate way of expressing himself.


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## Contra_Mundum (May 9, 2008)

timmopussycat said:


> May I suggest, sir, that you may be fighting a straw man?


Well, it wouldn't be the first time I was guilty. I have several useful books by Packer, and a couple other introductions in books written by others. He has many fine points, probably more than I know.

Blessings.


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## Yodas_Prodigy (May 9, 2008)

Bump for Davidius


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## CarlosOliveira (May 13, 2008)

armourbearer said:


> I would go back one step further to a more generic problem, which is trying to help people see that being a Christian is full time work, that we serve Christ in our ordinary jobs, that families are seminaries of Christian learning, that we are our brother's keeper, and every believer has faith apportioned him to promote the spiritual growth of the body of Christ in word and deed.



Taking Rev. Winzer's post as a starting point, I want really ask to every PBer try to help me with this issue of of the doctrine of the callings and that being a Christian is full time work. I'm asking it because my best friend is with her mind so confused about this things, that she wants to marry ONLY to a pastor or missionary for in this way she will be glorifying God most, she'll evangelyzing most that in her actual job (infant teacher) she is wasting her time, that the world is desperately in need to hear the gospel! I think that everyone of us can agree with most of her concerns but not that this situation demands that we get out of our jobs! So, help me to try to help her! I'm really in need of biblical/Scriptures foundations/expositions about these matters!

Thanks everyone in advance!


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