# So much for the call to worship, before or after (Owen)



## NaphtaliPress (Dec 27, 2019)

Travis Fentiman posted this to an interesting to say the least discussion on the Covenanters forum on Facebook on whether the RPW applies to all worship or just public (the right answer is "all"). As to those who are fine with practices before the call to worship that they would not be after it is given, here is Owen:
…they who hold communion with Christ… will admit nothing, practice nothing, in the worship of God, private or public, but what they have his warrant for; unless it comes in his name, with ‘Thus saith the Lord Jesus’…” Comes from Communion with God but this is cited in his life: https://books.google.com/books?id=b... who hold communion with Christ" owen&f=false

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## Jake (Dec 27, 2019)

Here are some examples I've seen of things done before the call to worship or after the benediction in conscientiously EP churches: passing the plate to collect money and group recitation of catechism questions. Some argue that these are commanded in worship, but not everyone is agreed, so I would be okay leaving them out for the consciences of those convinced otherwise. Nevertheless, they are things that are good to do when gathered together that can be done decently and in order before worship begins or after it ends.

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## earl40 (Dec 28, 2019)

Jake said:


> Here are some examples I've seen of things done before the call to worship or after the benediction in conscientiously EP churches: passing the plate to collect money and group recitation of catechism questions. Some argue that these are commanded in worship, but not everyone is agreed, so I would be okay leaving them out for the consciences of those convinced otherwise. Nevertheless, they are things that are good to do when gathered together that can be done decently and in order before worship begins or after it ends.



What is interesting is how many outside the church who visit recognize the passing of the plate is not worship. Also what is interesting is that most in the church have been brainwashed (myself included for most of my life) think it is part of worship.


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## Jake (Dec 28, 2019)

earl40 said:


> What is interesting is how many outside the church who visit recognize the passing of the plate is not worship. Also what is interesting is that most in the church have been brainwashed (myself included for most of my life) think it is part of worship.



What about announcements then? That's something else done out of convenience while everyone is gathered together in every church I've been at, usually before the call to worship or after the benediction. I don't think someone would mistake that for being part of worship, but it makes sense to do while all are gathered.


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## earl40 (Dec 28, 2019)

Jake said:


> What about announcements then? That's something else done out of convenience while everyone is gathered together in every church I've been at, usually before the call to worship or after the benediction. I don't think someone would mistake that for being part of worship, but it makes sense to do while all are gathered.



Before or after worship...no problem and proper.


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## JimmyH (Dec 29, 2019)

earl40 said:


> What is interesting is how many outside the church who visit recognize the passing of the plate is not worship. Also what is interesting is that most in the church have been brainwashed (myself included for most of my life) think it is part of worship.


Apparently the Orthodox Presbyterian Church thinks it is a part of worship too. 
The Book of Church Order : 
THE DIRECTORY FOR THE PUBLIC WORSHIP OF GOD ;
page 139 ;
4. The Bringing of Offerings. The bringing of offerings in the public assembly of God’s people on the Lord’s Day is a solemn act of worship to almighty God. The people of God are to set aside to him the firstfruits of their labors; in so doing, they should present themselves with thanksgiving as a living sacrifice to God. All should participate in this act of worship when God gives opportunity for it. Parents are to instruct and encourage their children by precept and example to give of their substance regularly, purposefully, generously, and joyfully to the Lord through his church.


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 30, 2019)

JimmyH said:


> Apparently the Orthodox Presbyterian Church thinks it is a part of worship too.
> The Book of Church Order :
> THE DIRECTORY FOR THE PUBLIC WORSHIP OF GOD ;
> page 139 ;
> 4. The Bringing of Offerings. The bringing of offerings in the public assembly of God’s people on the Lord’s Day is a solemn act of worship to almighty God. The people of God are to set aside to him the firstfruits of their labors; in so doing, they should present themselves with thanksgiving as a living sacrifice to God. All should participate in this act of worship when God gives opportunity for it. Parents are to instruct and encourage their children by precept and example to give of their substance regularly, purposefully, generously, and joyfully to the Lord through his church.


Would I be disciplined in the OPC if I put the offering in the plate before the worship service? Some Scottish churches still use a box at the back of the church I think; most American gave into the revivalism practice long ago. Maybe the passing of the plate was invented to give more work to all the new Presbyterian organists.....


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## JimmyH (Dec 30, 2019)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Would I be disciplined in the OPC if I put the offering in the plate before the worship service? Some Scottish churches still use a box at the back of the church I think; most American gave into the revivalism practice long ago. Maybe the passing of the plate was invented to give more work to all the new Presbyterian organists.....


We do have individuals who place their offering in the plate before the worship service. Also an occasional offering brought into the session room where the total is tabulated after the worship service. The former is preferable since we've already written the totals and have to revise the tabulation.


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 30, 2019)

JimmyH said:


> The former is preferable since we've already written the totals and have to revise the tabulation.


I imagine it causes some consternation. When I forget (and the check is still in my pocket when I get home), I just bring it the next week along with that week's.


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## Tom Hart (Dec 30, 2019)

One thing a lot of Korean churches get right is having the box at the back. I never saw that back home.

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## TylerRay (Dec 30, 2019)

RWD said:


> Some evangelical churches don’t pass the plate during worship but not due to a regulative principle of worship. Are there any Reformed denominations that refrain from the practice?


In the FC(C), we have a collection box by the door for people to give at their leisure. We don't consider the giving to be part of worship.

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## kodos (Dec 30, 2019)

A few RP churches, including our own, and the one that I visit when I’m in Pittsburgh, use a box as well. 

It seems to be making a comeback, thankfully.

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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 30, 2019)

kodos said:


> A few RP churches, including our own, and the one that I visit when I’m in Pittsburgh, use a box as well.
> 
> It seems to be making a comeback, thankfully.


Same in Birmingham.

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## Jake (Dec 30, 2019)

kodos said:


> A few RP churches, including our own, and the one that I visit when I’m in Pittsburgh, use a box as well.
> 
> It seems to be making a comeback, thankfully.



Is that contrary to the RP Directory for Public Worship which includes "the presentation of tithes and offerings" as a "scriptural element of ordinary public worship"?


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 30, 2019)

Interesting question: when and what led to this change in Presbyterian practice of a collection box to moving offerings to an element in the worship service? @Wayne ? I'm pretty sure it was introduced by the traveling revivalists. Was it a practice in the RCC before the Reformation?


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## kodos (Dec 30, 2019)

Jake said:


> Is that contrary to the RP Directory for Public Worship which includes "the presentation of tithes and offerings" as a "scriptural element of ordinary public worship"?



Synod has ruled that it is not required, this was before my time in the denomination if I recall correctly.

Also, the language in the Directory is that it is “warranted”. It is not required.


“The presentation of tithes and offerings is *warranted* as part of worship”.

RPCNA DPW F-8.

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## Romans922 (Dec 30, 2019)

Get that changed Rom! 



kodos said:


> Synod has ruled that it is not required, this was before my time in the denomination if I recall correctly.
> 
> Also, the language in the Directory is that it is “warranted”. It is not required.
> 
> ...

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## iainduguid (Dec 30, 2019)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Interesting question: when and what led to this change in Presbyterian practice of a collection box to moving offerings to an element in the worship service? @Wayne ? I'm pretty sure it was introduced by the traveling revivalists. Was it a practice in the RCC before the Reformation?


Up until at least the eighteenth century, Church of England parishes paid their minister a set "living" derived from Church holdings of land and other assets (and local taxes - "tithes" of agricultural produce and obligations to maintain the church). Different parishes had access to different resources and so some were considerably better paid than others. Some ministers had to hold several livings to make ends meet, while others took the money and paid a curate a pittance to do the work. Generally, there was also a vicarage in which he would live. Something similar presumably operated in Scotland. In the 1920's, when my grandfather was minister of Mortlach Church in the North East of Scotland, there was a "glebe" attached to the post that he would have normally been expected to farm - he caused some scandal locally by renting it out to someone else because, as he said, he had come there for "soul culture" not "soil culture". The only public offerings that would have been received were for the poor (whether in worship or, more commonly, in a box or some other receptacle).

I suspect (though I don't know the history) that offerings must have become immediately necessary in Scotland on the disruption in 1843: the Free Church would no longer have had access to the assets of the Church of Scotland and so must have needed to raise finance not only for ministers but for a raft of new church buildings as well. I'm not sure about the history in America, but it seems likely that in most places voluntary offerings would have been required to replace state funding from the earliest days. So I'm not sure revivalists were to blame for the practice of receiving gifts, though they may, of course, have changed the methods adopted to encourage people to be more generous.

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## Kinghezy (Dec 30, 2019)

But if we don't pass the plate, where can we sneak in announcements into the middle of service?


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 30, 2019)

Interesting point about the need facing the FC. My main thought was that the practice of taking up an offering during the revivalist meetings in the US colonies and later may have paved the way toward the offering moving from a collection box to an act and element of public worship.


iainduguid said:


> So I'm not sure revivalists were to blame for the practice of receiving gifts, though they may, of course, have changed the methods adopted to encourage people to be more generous.


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 30, 2019)

Kinghezy said:


> But if we don't pass the plate, where can we sneak in announcements into the middle of service?


Nothing so impious, surely; besides, the pianists would revolt at no offertory.

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## yeutter (Dec 30, 2019)

JimmyH said:


> Apparently the Orthodox Presbyterian Church thinks it is a part of worship too.
> The Book of Church Order :
> THE DIRECTORY FOR THE PUBLIC WORSHIP OF GOD ;
> page 139 ;
> 4. The Bringing of Offerings. The bringing of offerings in the public assembly of God’s people on the Lord’s Day is a solemn act of worship to almighty God. The people of God are to set aside to him the firstfruits of their labors; in so doing, they should present themselves with thanksgiving as a living sacrifice to God. All should participate in this act of worship when God gives opportunity for it. Parents are to instruct and encourage their children by precept and example to give of their substance regularly, purposefully, generously, and joyfully to the Lord through his church.


When "the offering" first became part of the worship service proper in the liturgies of both the Eastern and Western Church it did not mean the collection of the tithes and alms. "The offering" was originally the bringing forward of the bread and wine for use in the celebration of the Lord's Supper. I do not know when "the offering" was changed to mean the collection of tithes, alms, and offerings.


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## JimmyH (Dec 30, 2019)

Just as a point of interest, a friend, and fellow Deacon in my congregation was raised in South Africa. He was brought up in a Reformed Church and they had an offering box in the rear of the hall. They also drank from a communal cup to observe the Lord's Supper.


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## B.L. (Dec 30, 2019)

NaphtaliPress said:


> Some Scottish churches still use a box at the back of the church I think





Tom Hart said:


> One thing a lot of Korean churches get right is having the box at the back.





kodos said:


> A few RP churches, including our own, and the one that I visit when I’m in Pittsburgh, use a box as well.





TylerRay said:


> In the FC(C), we have a collection box by the door for people to give at their leisure.





JimmyH said:


> He was brought up in a Reformed Church and they had an offering box in the rear of the hall.



Oh, how I would love it if more churches eliminated the offering and went with boxes in the back. I've come to dread this time of the service. It's typically when the "special music" is played about twice as long as necessary -- several minutes after the last offering plate was collected -- and as if that wasn't bad enough the ruckus of loud congregational clapping that follows makes me flinch and cringe without fail. BRING BACK THE BOX!

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## earl40 (Dec 30, 2019)

JimmyH said:


> Apparently the Orthodox Presbyterian Church thinks it is a part of worship too.
> The Book of Church Order :
> THE DIRECTORY FOR THE PUBLIC WORSHIP OF GOD ;
> page 139 ;
> 4. The Bringing of Offerings. The bringing of offerings in the public assembly of God’s people on the Lord’s Day is a solemn act of worship to almighty God. The people of God are to set aside to him the firstfruits of their labors; in so doing, they should present themselves with thanksgiving as a living sacrifice to God. All should participate in this act of worship when God gives opportunity for it. Parents are to instruct and encourage their children by precept and example to give of their substance regularly, purposefully, generously, and joyfully to the Lord through his church.



I wonder where in scripture warrented this?


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## Jake (Dec 30, 2019)

kodos said:


> Synod has ruled that it is not required, this was before my time in the denomination if I recall correctly.
> 
> Also, the language in the Directory is that it is “warranted”. It is not required.
> 
> ...



Gotcha. I didn't understand what "warranted" meant.


earl40 said:


> I wonder where in scripture warrented this?



The ARP Church has Scripture proofs throughout the Directory for Public Worship, unlike some churches. You can see the section and Scripture proofs for tithes and offerings in worship here: http://arpstandards.com/article/the-directory-of-public-worship/#_ftnref131

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## W.C. Dean (Dec 30, 2019)

I have nothing to say about tithes, but I do wish to ask a question that I've been thinking through for a while that pertains to the original post. I agree the RPW applies to all worship and hence since first adhering to a capella Exclusive Psalmody I've ceased singing Psalms with the piano, and also have ceased singing or listening to hymns (Perhaps ceasing listening is a stretch but I do believe singing a song intended for the worship of God is drifting into worshipping him). I would like to know some other EP brothers' and sisters' positions on instruments outside of worship and listening to hymns. So pertaining to the OP being outside of worship, EP brethren:

Is listening to uninspired hymns and songs acceptable?

Is playing an instrument at any time acceptable?


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## JimmyH (Dec 30, 2019)

W.C. Dean said:


> I have nothing to say about tithes, but I do wish to ask a question that I've been thinking through for a while that pertains to the original post. I agree the RPW applies to all worship and hence since first adhering to a capella Exclusive Psalmody I've ceased singing Psalms with the piano, and also have ceased singing or listening to hymns (Perhaps ceasing listening is a stretch but I do believe singing a song intended for the worship of God is drifting into worshipping him). I would like to know some other EP brothers' and sisters' positions on instruments outside of worship and listening to hymns. So pertaining to the OP being outside of worship, EP brethren:
> 
> Is listening to uninspired hymns and songs acceptable?
> 
> Is playing an instrument at any time acceptable?


Sounds like a topic for a stand alone thread I think. Far afield of the OP ... NO ?

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## Jeri Tanner (Dec 30, 2019)

Agreed, yes. Feel free to start another thread, W.C. There is an EP forum in which to post it. But also know that these things have been gone over many times on the PB, so a search through that forum will provide many answers.


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## W.C. Dean (Dec 30, 2019)

Jeri Tanner said:


> Agreed, yes. Feel free to start another thread, W.C. There is an EP forum in which to post it. But also know that these things have been gone over many times on the PB, so a search through that forum will provide many answers.



I have searched for threads on instruments outside of worship and have consistently been unable to locate a thread dedicated to the subject alone. I posted it here because the topic was the RPW and being outside and inside a time of worship


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## NaphtaliPress (Dec 30, 2019)

W.C. Dean said:


> Is listening to uninspired hymns and songs acceptable?
> 
> Is playing an instrument at any time acceptable?


Neither is an act of worship; but yes, start a new thread please.


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