# Ok, what should be the Christian's perspective on the Middle East conflict.



## Anton Bruckner (Nov 11, 2004)

*Ok, what should be the Christian\'s perspective on the Middle East conflict.*

It's only been a year now, that I have converted to Preterism. Unfortunately, some of the old Predispensationalist political worldview are yet to be washed out.

So guys drop me your opinions on the Middle East.

My opinion is that peace should be negotiated by Justice (the Biblical view of Justice) as opposed to eschatological opinions. But that is as far as I go get.
On one hand I want their to be peace with the Palestinians being comfortable, and on the other hand I like Israel's democracy and free speech which I see can be a launching point for the Gospel to the rest of the Muslim world

Do any of you have a more developed opinion on this matter.

[Edited on 11/12/2004 by fredtgreco]


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## ReformedWretch (Nov 11, 2004)

WOW Keon...I have been thinking what you have stated here for some time. I look forward to the replies. Very much so!


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## Me Died Blue (Nov 11, 2004)




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## VirginiaHuguenot (Nov 11, 2004)

Here are some of my thoughts on this issue. 

Modern Israel is definitely not the same thing is ancient Israel. Although I do believe that Jews have a special place in my postmillennial eschatology (cf. Rom. 11), I do not believe that the nation of Israel today is any more special than any other nation. I am not a Christian Zionist. 

That said, I do think Israel stands out in the Middle East like a light shining in the darkness of Islamic tyranny. Compared to all the nations around them, Israelis stand on the moral high ground because they adhere to principles of liberty and justice. 

Understanding the history is critical to an evaluation of what must be done today. The whole 20th century history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been convoluted and harmed by first the British mandate in which they attempted to appease the Arabs while making promises to the Jews and then later -- after the UN did the one good thing in its history when it voted to partition Palestine in 1947 which paved the way for the establishment of a Jewish state -- the UN which is dominated by countries that hate Israel and hold it to a double standard to this day. When Palestine was divided and the Jews established Israel, large numbers of Arabs fled despite Jewish calls for them to remain and live in peace as neighbors. The surrounding countries, notably, Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon, refused to accept those Arabs as citizens, instead preferring to keep the issue alive by forcing the refugees to live in camps which exist to this day. The injustice of those camps is evident to all, but the Arab countries could have resolved that issue in the late 1940's rather than perpetuating their misery to the present day. As soon as Israel declared its independence, the Arab nations declared war. They have done so repeatedly since and lost every time. Israel is understandably of the opinion that they can count on no one but themselves. America has supported Israel through the years and developed close ties, but America's interests and Israel's do not always converge. America felt guilt over the Holocaust and that event has left a deep impression upon the psyche of Americans and Israelis. Never again. The Israelis have dealt with terror and war for over half a century and persecution for millennia. I do see the hand of God judging the Jews for their unbelief in these things, but I also see the clear evil of those who would destroy the Jews. The Palestinians, meanwhile, have resorted to terrorism to accomplish their aim of an independent state. A Palestinian state would certainly be a desirable thing in the sense that each group of people in the world may reasonably be expected to govern themselves. But given the past history and ongoing state of war, Israel's right to self-defense trumps any Palestinian claim to statehood. Terrorists should not be permitted to come to a negotiating table as if their hands are clean. Political violence should not be rewarded with a seat at the table. 

That's my  Although it is historical fiction, I recommend reading _Exodus_ by Leon Uris, which traces the struggle for a Jewish homeland from the 19th century to the 20th. While the Jews as a people may be criticized rightfully for their unbelief in the Messiah and in other regards, yet they hold the moral high ground in the Palestinian conflict and a just approach to peace in the Middle East must take that into account.


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## fredtgreco (Nov 11, 2004)

The Palestinians were promised and deserve a country.

















It is called Jordan!


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Nov 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> The Palestinians were promised and deserve a country.
> 
> It is called Jordan!



Well put, that's the truth!


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Nov 11, 2004)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> The Palestinians were promised and deserve a country.
> 
> 
> ...



The first thing done should be to replace Jordans minority leadership from the Hijaz region of modern Saudi Arabia with Palestinian leaders. Jordan is just as much 'Flsteen' (Arabic name) as Eretz Israel. The palestinians did know that/still do but when ever they try to overthrow the Jordanian government they get in a lot more trouble (who knows how many 10s of thousands were killed in the 70s and 80s)


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## Anton Bruckner (Nov 12, 2004)

I heard of the bombing of Hama Jordan that killed 25,000. And in Jordan the Palestinians are not given citizenship but refugee status only. Man are they used and abused by their fellow Arabs.


OK, now, let us say we Christians are given miraculous power to solve this crisis, what would our solution be?


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## fredtgreco (Nov 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Slippery_
> I heard of the bombing of Hama Jordan that killed 25,000. And in Jordan the Palestinians are not given citizenship but refugee status only. Man are they used and abused by their fellow Arabs.
> 
> 
> OK, now, let us say we Christians are given miraculous power to solve this crisis, what would our solution be?



Convert the Jews to worship the Messiah, and the Arabs to stop worshipping the devil, but worship the true God instead.


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## openairboy (Nov 12, 2004)

Fred and others,

What are some recommended readings for this issue? I'm looking more historical, political rather than strictly theological, i.e. dispensationalism vs. covenant. For example, when were the Palestinians promised Jordan, etc.

Thanks,
openairoby


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## fredtgreco (Nov 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by openairboy_
> Fred and others,
> 
> What are some recommended readings for this issue? I'm looking more historical, political rather than strictly theological, i.e. dispensationalism vs. covenant. For example, when were the Palestinians promised Jordan, etc.
> ...



Keith,

I believe that the best written and least obviously biased book to read is Paul Johnson's _Modern Times_. Johnson is a masterful writer, and he does an excellent job at exposing how the radical Muslims like the PLO systematically kill Christian and moderate Arabs to remain the only choice for the populace. his account of the Algeria revolt is priceless.

Remember that Palestine was once a part of a larger territory that included Transjordan. The entire colonial area (some British, some French) was given up and divided among the Jews and Arabs. Jews in Jordan were to leave for Israel and Arabs in Israel were to leave for Jordan. But instead of settling in Jordan, the "Palestinians" (there is no such people - they were made up) settled in camps waiting for the victorius Arab armies to wipe out the Jews. The only problem is, the Israelis obliterated the Arabs at every turn. So we have then the permanent "refugees." At one point, they tried to take over Jordan and were butchered by the Hashemites.


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## SmokingFlax (Nov 12, 2004)

Ah yes...nothing like a few lines of recent history to show off the much vaunted "Arab brotherhood" that holds the Islamic world together. I must say that I don't have much optimism about the establishment of some kind of "democracy" in Iraq (or Palestine) because of the ridiculously long standing tribal hatreds that inform so much of Arab politics. 

These people are still ticked off that David slew Goliath!


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## openairboy (Nov 13, 2004)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> Keith,
> 
> I believe that the best written and least obviously biased book to read is Paul Johnson's _Modern Times_. Johnson is a masterful writer, and he does an excellent job at exposing how the radical Muslims like the PLO systematically kill Christian and moderate Arabs to remain the only choice for the populace. his account of the Algeria revolt is priceless.
> ...



Thank you very much. I am currently reading Johnson's history of America, so I look forward to delving into his Modern Times.

I appreaciate it.

openairboy


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## fredtgreco (Nov 13, 2004)

> _Originally posted by openairboy_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> ...



Keith,

You're welcome. I fell in love with Johnson's Modern Times almost 15 years ago. He has the habit of writing like a literary giant, and is a good historian. His analysis of the Eisenhower era is also excellent.

Have you read anything else by him?


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## fredtgreco (Nov 13, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Paul manata_
> "Have you read anything else by him? "
> 
> Intellectuals



How does it compare?


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## RamistThomist (Nov 13, 2004)

_Intellectuals_ is on my Amazon list. I read his History of the American People and found it to be well-written, if off on a few issues. His analysis of the 20th century is great. Has anybody read his work on the Renaissance?


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## Me Died Blue (Nov 13, 2004)

That sounds like a really good work. I'll have to check it out sometime here.


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## openairboy (Nov 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> 
> Keith,
> 
> ...




Yes, about 6 yrs. ago I read "Intellectuals" for a class by Art Lindsley ("Classical Apologetics" w/ Sproul and Gerstner). I really enjoyed the book at the time. It was my first real exposure as a Christian to the life and times of influential intellectuals, so I remember being a little overwhelmed. To go from Campus Crusade thinking and spirituality to a more reformed and "intellectual" appreciation of thought was new to me, so I would like to reread it. I just started his history on America, but have enjoyed the first 30 pages (I feel like Hermans Hermits: "Don't Know Much About History").

openairboy


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## openairboy (Nov 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by openairboy_
> ...


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## Fernando (Nov 15, 2004)

I would recommend "Intellectuals" highly to anyone. It would be especially useful to those about to go to college.


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