# Licensure without ordination (in the PCA)



## raekwon

(I almost titled this "TERMINAL LICENSURE!!" for impact, but anyway...)

So, some of you may know that I've been studying (on and off) toward being licensed to preach by my presbytery. Those plans were necessarily put on hold a few times, but over the past month or so, I've been both internally compelled and externally encouraged to go ahead and get it done. Over the past year and a half, I've had opportunities in both my own church and other churches in the presbytery to preach the Gospel, and would love to be able to do so "regularly" (more than 12 times/year, as our presbytery has defined it), and to do that, I must be licensed (BCO 19-1).

Right now, though, there's a sticking point in my mind -- ordination as a Teaching Elder is not currently on the horizon for me (though, as we well know, God can change what we think is on the horizon quickly). There's a sentiment in at least some parts of the denomination that the sole (or at least primary) purpose of licensure is to test a man's giftings before he moves on toward ordination as a TE. I agree with that, insofar as the "man" isn't already ordained as an elder, but... I'm already ordained as an elder.

Anyway, after reading a position paper on the PCA History site (particularly section "D" there), I'm now wondering if this is something that I should pursue. Or maybe God is indeed drawing me toward pursuing ordination as a Teaching Elder? I don't know. (Of course, if we were truly a two-office denomination, this wouldn't be an issue. )

I'm seeking your advice, friends.

_(It was pointed out to me that, though the position paper says that the "testing period" for potential TEs has developed into licensure, that period is actually now what we call "internship". I don't know whether or not internship was developed after that report was written.)_


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Fascinating question... (As someone who is a Licentiate)...


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## tcalbrecht

Licensure and internship are two different things. Internship is for those pursuing the gospel ministry as part of their preparation. Licensure is available to anyone who is called to preach on a regular basis within the presbytery. This might include, for example, a ruling elder or a minister fron another denomination serving as stated supply (BCO 19-1). 

The license can to be renewed without re-examination within the 4 year window (BCO 19-6).


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## raekwon

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Fascinating question... (As someone who is a Licentiate)...


 
It looks like licensure is more clearly delineated as a pre-ordination probationary period in the ARP (analogous to internship in the PCA, it seems).

---------- Post added at 01:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:09 PM ----------




tcalbrecht said:


> Licensure and internship are two different things. Internship is for those pursuing the gospel ministry as part of their preparation. Licensure is available to anyone who is called to preach on a regular basis within the presbytery. This might include, for example, a ruling elder or a minister fron another denomination serving as stated supply (BCO 19-1).
> 
> The license can to be renewed without re-examination within the 4 year window (BCO 19-6).


 
Right, and that's what I was going on this whole time. The report from that committee is the only thing that was giving me pause.


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## tcalbrecht

Perhaps Wayne Sparkman can give us the history behind that committee report and subsequent actions of the GA, but it appears to be out of date with respect to what is present in the current BCO, e.g., the statement:



> *Recommendation No. 9*:
> That the General Assembly affirm that the purpose of licensure is to test for a definite period of time the gifts and calling of men seeking ordination in the PCA, and that the practice of licensing Ruling Elders not seeking to become Teaching Elders be discontinued. _Adopted _



appears to be counter to BCO 19-1:



> A ruling elder, a candidate for the ministry, a minister from some other denomination, or some other man may be licensed for the purpose of regularly providing the preaching of the Word upon his giving satisfaction to the Presbytery of his gifts and passing the licensure examination.


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## SemperEruditio

Licensure is also to see whether or not the man should continue onto becoming ordained. Too many times we see ordination as a natural extension but the reality is that if more men pursued licensure as a confirmation of their call and not as a next step in the process there would be less men going into the pulpit who do not belong. I, for one, do not equate licensure with the next step toward fulfilling the call but instead as giving me permission to preach at other churches and seeing if I am truly called. For me the licensure is a trial period to see whether a man has or has not been called. The internship process is the same. Neither of these, in my mind, should be a given that they lead to becoming a TE. They are required to become a TE but beginning them does not guarantee it nor should it. Successful completion of ordination exams should not be a determinant that the applicant is ready. 

Raekwon if you would like some great critique about your sermons from men who don't really know you then I would suggest licensure. I have preached at two churches other than my own and it was "great"  to hear what they had to say. I was amazed at what these other men focused on or did not. It helped to confirm the call and also gave me plenty to think about. Sometimes when we preach at our home church they are so encouraged that the critiques are not as critical as they should be.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

raekwon said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fascinating question... (As someone who is a Licentiate)...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It looks like Licensure is more clearly delineated as a pre-ordination probationary period in the ARP (analogous to internship in the PCA, it seems).
Click to expand...


It least appears that way. 

I know for us the "Licensure" period is the period between passing exams and receiving a call.


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## tcalbrecht

Just by way of clarification, in the PCA an internship is a prerequisite for ordination. However, licensure is not. One can be ordained without ever being licensed. Licensure is only required for those who are not members of the presbytery who wish to preach on a regular basis.


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## Covenant Joel

tcalbrecht said:


> Just by way of clarification, in the PCA an internship is a prerequisite for ordination. However, licensure is not. One can be ordained without ever being licensed. Licensure is only required for those who are not members of the presbytery who wish to preach on a regular basis.


 
I'm not sure that you are wrong, but in the conversations I've had, that doesn't seem accurate. Also, if you look at the PCA BCO, Chapter 21, it seems to indicate that one going for ordination must have already passed licensure exams. It says that if there was anything unclear from the licensure exams, he can be tested again, whereas if everything was fine in the licensure exam, then he need only be examined on the remaining subjects (Church History, Languages, and the Sacraments if I'm not mistaken). But I have no experience with how this actually works, so I'm only going off the BCO and what I've heard from others.


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## raekwon

The licensure trials are a subset of the ordination trials, so even if the former is technically not a "requirement" for ordination, one ends up doing both (sort of) anyway.


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## SemperEruditio

tcalbrecht said:


> Just by way of clarification, in the PCA an internship is a prerequisite for ordination. However, licensure is not. One can be ordained without ever being licensed. Licensure is only required for those who are not members of the presbytery who wish to preach on a regular basis.


 
BOCO 21.4.b disagrees.


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## tcalbrecht

SemperEruditio said:


> tcalbrecht said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just by way of clarification, in the PCA an internship is a prerequisite for ordination. However, licensure is not. One can be ordained without ever being licensed. Licensure is only required for those who are not members of the presbytery who wish to preach on a regular basis.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BOCO 21.4.b disagrees.
Click to expand...


???



> b. He shall prepare a thesis on some theological topic assigned by Presbytery.



Then there are other parts:



> An applicant for internship is obliged to be under care and *may be *licensed to preach the Gospel; (18-2)


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## tcalbrecht

Covenant Joel said:


> I'm not sure that you are wrong, but in the conversations I've had, that doesn't seem accurate. Also, if you look at the PCA BCO, Chapter 21, it seems to indicate that one going for ordination must have already passed licensure exams. It says that if there was anything unclear from the licensure exams, he can be tested again, whereas if everything was fine in the licensure exam, then he need only be examined on the remaining subjects (Church History, Languages, and the Sacraments if I'm not mistaken). But I have no experience with how this actually works, so I'm only going off the BCO and what I've heard from others.



The language of BCO 21 does not require one has previously been licensed. E.g., 



> *If *the Presbytery previously approved all parts of the licensure examination, it need not re-examine the intern in those areas at this time. If there were areas of weakness, which the Presbytery noted, …


If there was no licensure exam, then all parts of the ordination exam are in play. But there is no explicit statement in BCO staing licensure MUST precede examination for ordination. There is for internship. (Although I’ll admit that 99% of the cases involving candidates includes licensure since training often involves preaching on a regular basis.)


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## Wayne

Great question, Rae. 

First, I've always _assumed_ that licensure was mandatory for and preliminary to ordination, though I would also admit the possibility of a ruling elder being simply licensed with no intention of pursuing ordination. Now that I think about it, I can recall instances of that having happened.

I've also always understood that when a ruling elder steps into the pulpit, he brings an exhortation; he properly does not "preach".

Lastly, I just found out today that the EPC doesn't utilize "licensure" but just moves right ahead to ordination. Does that mean for them that they don't allow the possibility of ruling elders being regularly permitted to bring exhortations? [The EPC form of government understandably follows, for the most part, that of the UPCUSA circa 1980/81]

If I have any more to add, it'll have to come later when there's more time available. 

Last lastly [], the information posted at Historical Development of the PCA Book of Church Order : Chapter 19, Paragraph 1 [with links at the top of the page to the other paragraphs in that chapter] will provide earlier texts and perhaps give some idea of how things were done in the past, plus F.P. Ramsay's commentary (1898) is posted there as well and should prove useful.


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## raekwon

Wayne said:


> Lastly, I just found out today that the EPC doesn't utilize "licensure" but just moves right ahead to ordination. Does that mean for them that they don't allow the possibility of ruling elders being regularly permitted to bring exhortations? [The EPC form of government understandably follows, for the most part, that of the UPCUSA circa 1980/81 whereas the OPC and BPC were_ initially_ modeled after the PCUSA circa 1936.]


 
Just took a look at the EPC Book of Order. Paragraph 10-6.A says...


> A Ruling Elder should study and learn the Word and become equipped to teach that Word, *even to supplying a regular ministry of the Word where none is available*. The Ruling Elder should become adept at leading worship and at leading in prayer.



Additionally, 10-6.E deals with REs being temporarily authorized by the Presbytery as "Commissioned Pastors", with the power to preach regularly, administer sacraments, solemnize marriages, etc etc etc.

So anyway... should I go ahead and get licensed?


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## SemperEruditio

tcalbrecht said:


> SemperEruditio said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tcalbrecht said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just by way of clarification, in the PCA an internship is a prerequisite for ordination. However, licensure is not. One can be ordained without ever being licensed. Licensure is only required for those who are not members of the presbytery who wish to preach on a regular basis.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BOCO 21.4.b disagrees.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> b. He shall prepare a thesis on some theological topic assigned by Presbytery.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then there are other parts:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An applicant for internship is obliged to be under care and *may be *licensed to preach the Gospel; (18-2)
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


My fault. I will have to stick to the PDF version because my Word version seems to have added extra outline numbering. Good to know that now!


Rereading and checking with my committee mentor you are 100% correct....well sorta. At our presbytery you are free not to take licensure exams however your ordination exams will be a combination of the licensure + ordination exams. So the candidate isn't getting out of anything by not taking licensure exams. The other thing is it raises questions with the Presbytery why he chose not to take the licensure exams. Questions aren't bad but when you're an applicant who is already coming in with a non-standard resume it's best not to rock the boat.


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## Wayne

Rae:

I would counsel you to go ahead and get licensed, so long as your presbytery is in agreement with that, and I assume they would be.
Who knows, perhaps it will lead to larger ministry.


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## fredtgreco

Let me speak a bit to this issue. I have been a Chairman of a Candidates Committee (Great Lakes Presbytery), been licensed in another (Mississippi Valley), attended several others and am now Moderator of Houston Metro Presbytery.

At least in the PCA, Licensure is not necessarily tied to Ordination to the Gospel Ministry. The PCA BCO explicitly makes this clear, in stating that the objects of licensure can be "_A ruling elder, a candidate for the ministry, a minister from some other denomination, or some other man._" The purpose of licensure is not a stepping stone for ordination, but rather "To preserve the purity of the preaching of the Gospel" (19-1).

The examination for ordination must cover (per BCO 21-4c)
(a) his acquaintance with experiential religion,
(b) his knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew languages,
(c) Bible content,
(d) theology,
(e) the Sacraments,
(f) Church history,
(g) the history of the Presbyterian Church in America, and
(h) the principles and rules of the government and discipline of the church.

Just because some of these overlap with licensure, does not mean a man must be licensed before he is ordained. In fact, many men are not. I was not. I was licensed in two Presbyteries, but ordained in a third. I still had to take all the ordination exams, even though I had taken and passed the Bible, Theology and BCO exams. There are times when I advised someone to take the licensure exams to "break up" the sheer amount of exams to be taken.

I am not sure how the ARP works, but I can pretty definitely say that the PCA does NOT require licensure before ordination; and someone can be licensed who is not even under care (I was, and I know of an OPC minister who was licensed to preach regularly in a PCA church).


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## Glenn Ferrell

I wish the OPC BOCO allowed for the licensure of Ruling Elders. Currently, it makes no provision for such.


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## Willem van Oranje

Glenn Ferrell said:


> I wish the OPC BOCO allowed for the licensure of Ruling Elders. Currently, it makes no provision for such.


 
That's because the OPC follows the 3-office view.


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## raekwon

Glenn Ferrell said:


> I wish the OPC BOCO allowed for the licensure of Ruling Elders. Currently, it makes no provision for such.


 
Glenn,

It appears (just from a cursory glance) that the OPC doesn't put a numeric/time limit on "exhortations" (that's what you guys call preaching by REs, right? ;-)) by Ruling Elders. If that's the case, why would an RE even need to be licensed?


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## Willem van Oranje

raekwon said:


> Glenn Ferrell said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wish the OPC BOCO allowed for the licensure of Ruling Elders. Currently, it makes no provision for such.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Glenn,
> 
> It appears (just from a cursory glance) that the OPC doesn't put a numeric/time limit on "exhortations" (that's what you guys call preaching by REs, right? ;-)) by Ruling Elders. If that's the case, why would an RE even need to be licensed?
Click to expand...

 
Why would you need a "license to preach", if in fact you are only exhorting a congregation on some topic? I understand the practice of exhorting in the OPC, (having done so myself), but licensure is to preach, not to exhort. I found exhorting by ruling elders in the OPC to be very common in the Presbytery of the Dakotas, but less so here in the Northeast. There is a diversity of views on how prevelant, or common this should be, or even whether it is permissable. Although constitutionally, it is permitted in the OPC. Some would prefer to have Ruling Elders merely read sermons aloud if no Teaching Elder is available to lead worship. 

Also, Ruling Elders in the OPC (and anyone who is not an ordained Teaching Elder) are not permitted to give an apostolic greeting or benediction (according to the revised BCO.)


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## raekwon

What is the practical difference between a sermon delivered by a minister and an exhortation delivered by a Ruling Elder?


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## Covenant Joel

raekwon said:


> What is the practical difference between a sermon delivered by a minister and an exhortation delivered by a Ruling Elder?


 
As a kid growing up in the OPC...I couldn't tell the difference. And I remember even when I was really young asking my dad once, "They're really trying to distinguish between these two things. It sure seems like the same thing to me." That's not to say they're wrong, but in my experience, the people in the congregation will have little realization that there is any difference between the two.


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## Willem van Oranje

raekwon said:


> What is the practical difference between a sermon delivered by a minister and an exhortation delivered by a Ruling Elder?



That of course would depend on the ruling elder. If the ruling elder happens to also be an aspiring minister (for example, a man under care of the presbytery) or likes to spend most of his time reading theology, there might not be much practical difference (except that he is usually not as well-trained or experienced as the minister, so the quality is sometimes lower.) Some ruling elders I have heard have given true "exhortations" i. e. practical advice on life in the church and in Christian families, drawn from the Scriptures, but not necessarily exegeted from one passage.

The fact that there is sometimes not a practical difference does not undermine the difference in principle.


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## SRoper

Wayne said:


> I've also always understood that when a ruling elder steps into the pulpit, he brings an exhortation; he properly does not "preach".



I thought this distinction does not exist in the PCA.


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## raekwon

SRoper said:


> Wayne said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've also always understood that when a ruling elder steps into the pulpit, he brings an exhortation; he properly does not "preach".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I thought this distinction does not exist in the PCA.
Click to expand...

 
It may have at one point -- I'm not sure, as I've only been PCA for 5 years -- but the current language of the BCO calls it all "preaching."


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## Grillsy

Willem van Oranje said:


> raekwon said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is the practical difference between a sermon delivered by a minister and an exhortation delivered by a Ruling Elder?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That of course would depend on the ruling elder. If the ruling elder happens to also be an aspiring minister (for example, a man under care of the presbytery) or likes to spend most of his time reading theology, there might not be much practical difference (except that he is usually not as well-trained or experienced as the minister, so the quality is sometimes lower.) Some ruling elders I have heard have given true "exhortations" i. e. practical advice on life in the church and in Christian families, drawn from the Scriptures, but not necessarily exegeted from one passage.
> 
> The fact that there is sometimes not a practical difference does not undermine the difference in principle.
Click to expand...

 
You've hit the nail on the head. I would also add that the one exhorting cannot give the Call to Worship or Benediction.


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## raekwon

Willem van Oranje said:


> raekwon said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is the practical difference between a sermon delivered by a minister and an exhortation delivered by a Ruling Elder?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That of course would depend on the ruling elder. If the ruling elder happens to also be an aspiring minister (for example, a man under care of the presbytery) or likes to spend most of his time reading theology, there might not be much practical difference (except that he is usually not as well-trained or experienced as the minister, so the quality is sometimes lower.) Some ruling elders I have heard have given true "exhortations" i. e. practical advice on life in the church and in Christian families, drawn from the Scriptures, but not necessarily exegeted from one passage.
> 
> The fact that there is sometimes not a practical difference does not undermine the difference in principle.
Click to expand...

 
True. So what's the difference in principle?

---------- Post added at 02:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:22 PM ----------




Grillsy said:


> You've hit the nail on the head. I would also add that the one exhorting cannot give the Call to Worship or Benediction.



I've heard the thing about the Benediction, but the Call to Worship as well? Wow.


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## Grillsy

raekwon said:


> Willem van Oranje said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> raekwon said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is the practical difference between a sermon delivered by a minister and an exhortation delivered by a Ruling Elder?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That of course would depend on the ruling elder. If the ruling elder happens to also be an aspiring minister (for example, a man under care of the presbytery) or likes to spend most of his time reading theology, there might not be much practical difference (except that he is usually not as well-trained or experienced as the minister, so the quality is sometimes lower.) Some ruling elders I have heard have given true "exhortations" i. e. practical advice on life in the church and in Christian families, drawn from the Scriptures, but not necessarily exegeted from one passage.
> 
> The fact that there is sometimes not a practical difference does not undermine the difference in principle.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> True. So what's the difference in principle?
> 
> ---------- Post added at 02:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:22 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Grillsy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You've hit the nail on the head. I would also add that the one exhorting cannot give the Call to Worship or Benediction.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I've heard the thing about the Benediction, but the Call to Worship as well? Wow.
Click to expand...

 
Yeah, things are pretty strict. I know that in the early days of my congregation, since we have no elders as of yet,it was common practice for a man to simply read a printed a sermon aloud for the Sunday service.


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