# Does baptism constitute church membership regardless...



## DTK (Jan 25, 2005)

of all other considerations?

Though there is a theology afoot today that advances this position, and often adduces support from Augustine in its arguments, Augustine answered this question in the negative...

*Augustine (354-430):* We recognize in heretics that baptism, which belongs not to the heretics but to Christ, in such sort as in fornicators, in unclean persons or effeminate, in idolaters, in poisoners, in those who retain enmity, in those who are fond of contention, in the credulous, in the proud, given to seditions, in the envious, in drunkards, in revelers; and in men like these we hold valid the baptism which is not theirs but Christ´s. For of men like these, and among them are included heretics also, none, as the apostle says, shall inherit the kingdom of heaven. *Nor are they to be considered as being in the body of Christ, which is the Church, simply because they are materially partakers of the sacraments.* For the sacraments indeed are holy, even in such men as these, and shall be of force in them to greater condemnation, because they handle and partake of them unworthily. But the men themselves are not within the constitution of the Church, which increases in the increase of God in its members through connection and contact with Christ. _NPNF1: Vol. IV, In Answer to the Letters of Petilian_, Book II, Chapter 109, Â§247.

DTK


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## Scott Bushey (Jan 25, 2005)

David,
In light of the post above, I would believe Augustine was referring to membership in the invisible church of God, otherwise from what he writes, we would be knowingly baptising 'heretics' and letting them partake of the sacraments. Only God knows the unregenerates in the visible........and yes, agreeing w/ Augustine, they have never had any part of the sacraments in this regard.

[Edited on 1-25-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## DTK (Jan 25, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> David,
> In light of the post above, I would believe Augustine was referring to membership in the invisible church of God, otherwise from what he writes, we would be knowingly baptising 'heretics' and letting them partake of the sacraments. Only God knows the unregenerates in the visible........and yes, agreeing w/ Augustine, they have never had any part of the sacraments in this regard.
> 
> [Edited on 1-25-2005 by Scott Bushey]


Scott,

No doubt that is true; Augustine owned the visible/invisible church distinction. But it is the certain penchant of a theology afoot today that downplays that distinction, and one's baptism is no objective guarantee that all is well with one's soul, or that they're entitled to that claim while living in open rebellion against God.

*Thomas Manton stated:* Papists will be counted as Christians, who may be rejected by Christ at his coming; they have so corrupted his worship, discipline, and doctrine. ...some will be found true believers, others common professors; even among members of a reformed church, that will make profession of the purity of the gospel, all will not be found such as may abide the day of Christ´s appearing in judgment. In Abraham´s family there was an Ishmael as well as an Isaac; in Christ´s, a Judas; and in the apostles´ time, some were enemies to the cross of Christ that yet took the profession of Christ upon them, Phil. iii. 18. _Sermon on Matthew xxv. 1-2, The Complete Works of Thomas Mantion_ (Worthington: Maranatha Publications, reprinted), Vol. 9, p. 323.

It was because of this tragic possibility that the Puritans and Scottish Covenanters emphasized the need for experimental Christianity, often referenced in their writings as the need for one to "œclose with Christ." As William Guthrie put it in The Christian´s Great Interest; "œQ. 10. What way can a man make sure of an interest in Christ, who never had a saving interest in him before? A. He must take his sins to heart, and his great danger because of them, and he must also take to heart God's offer of pardon and peace through Christ Jesus, and close with God's offer with all his heart by taking himself to Christ, the blessed refuge. 11. What if my sins be particularly wicked, and extraordinarily great? A. Whatever your sins may be, if you will close with Christ Jesus by faith, you shalt never enter into condemnation. Q. 17. What is the consequence of such closing with God in Christ by heart and mouth? A. Union and communion with God, all good here and his blessed fellowship in heaven for ever afterwards."

I think this is why Augustine stated, "But the men themselves are not within the constitution of the Church, which increases in the increase of God in its members through connection and contact with Christ." I like the way Augustine put it elsewhere....

*Augustine (354-430):* Now, although I may not be able myself to refute the arguments of these men, I yet see how necessary it is to adhere closely to the clearest statements of the Scriptures, in order that the obscure passages may be explained by help of these, or, if the mind be as yet unequal to either perceiving them when explained, or investigating them whilst abstruse, let them be believed without misgiving. But what can be plainer than the many weighty testimonies of the divine declarations, which afford to us the dearest proof possible *that without union with Christ there is no man who can attain to eternal life and salvation; and that no man can unjustly be damned,"”that is, separated from that life and salvation,"”by the judgment of God?* _NPNF1: Vol. V, On the Merits and Forgiveness of Sins, and on the Baptism of Infants_, Book III, Chapter 7. 

Blessings,
DTK


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jan 25, 2005)

When I was baptized by my Reformed Baptist Pastor in the Brackwaters of Virginia I still didn't become an active member of his congregation. I was a member in the body of Christ though. Because paper passes under the printers press doesn't make it a dollar bill. Even if it is designed to imitate it, it is not a dollar bill.


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## Scott Bushey (Jan 25, 2005)

Randy,
Do you believe you can be an active member in the b.o.C and never submit to membership?


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jan 25, 2005)

Scott,
No. I do believe if you don't have time to, as the thief on the cross, it doesn't matter. I was involved with a parachurch ministry called the Navigators when I was baptized. I was just acting on what I saw in the scriptures. I had no idea about Church membership or ecclesiaology. I was a part of the body of Christ though. You know, it was a growing up thing that had to happen.

Everyone needs to become submissive to a local congregation. 

Heb 13:17 Obey them that haue the ouersight of you, and submit your selues: for they watche for your soules, as they that must giue accountes, that they may doe it with ioy, and not with griefe: for that is vnprofitable for you Geneva Bible. 

Impressed?


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## Scott Bushey (Jan 25, 2005)

> _Originally posted by puritancovenanter_
> Scott,
> No. I do believe if you don't have time to, as the thief on the cross, it doesn't matter. I was involved with a parachurch ministry called the Navigators when I was baptized. I was just acting on what I saw in the scriptures. I had no idea about Church membership or ecclesiaology. I was a part of the body of Christ though. You know, it was a growing up thing that had to happen.
> 
> ...



The thief on the cross is an exception to the rule; but I hear you. I can relate to your situation as I was weaned in the Calvary Chapel movement; there was, and is, no membership for this group. I also grew into the doctrine by Gods grace. 

You agree that they are in grave error? How does one excommunicate one whom is not communicated?


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jan 25, 2005)

Absolutely. How is an Elder/Pastor to know who he is responsible for if he has no members. Local membership makes an accountability/resposability issue solid. An Elder/Pastor can be benevolent but is not responsible for those outside of his flock. A Pastor/Elder is accountable to the Church for his church. Lines must be drawn for distinction and responsability.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jan 25, 2005)

Let me also add that membership is important for the church member. There are responsibilities a member has to those in the flock of a congregation also. Lines of distinction are necessary. I am not responsible for my neighbors children. I will be benevolent to them but my God given responsibility is to my children first and foremost. If I take away from my family what God has given me to feed and nourish them with, and give to other children, I am neglecting what God has told me to do. 

If my Parents grow sick and needy, and I give what they need to someone else, I am in sin. I am also accountable to make sure my Pastor/Elder, and or Parents, receive their due wages and needs. Let me add that God says they are worthy of double honor.

[Edited on 1-26-2005 by puritancovenanter]


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## Scott Bushey (Jan 25, 2005)




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