# Trying to put some of my eschatology together - what am I (besides confused)?



## Pergamum (Mar 22, 2011)

Hello,


I am optimistic and I believe that the Gospel will go forth through the whole world. It will have victory and the Elect from all peoples will be drawn to faith. There will be world evangelization before the end.

However, I also see that great heresies will abound. And before the end it appears that this might increase. This might and probably will even culminate into a period of intense trials and the presence of a personal Antichrist whom Christ will destroy when he returns.


It appears that there is only one second coming and judgment and this is not to be separated by any long periods of time.

There is also one people of God and One Tree of Israel that all believers are grafted into, whether they be wild or natural branches. There is no Dispensational view of separate destinies for different Jews / Church.

It seems also that the Jews en masse will come to faith and be grafted back into the Tree Israel alongside the wild gentile branches prior to the end - but how much prior is a question. 

After the Jews come to faith is that the end or will that lead to further gentile conversion or the resurrection of all people at the Second Coming ("life from the dead" in Romans 11). (Murray's Puritan Hope book stirred up questions but gave me no solid answers).


I do not believe in a literal 1,000 year millennium and I generally like the categories of "This Age" and "The Age to Come."


What am I and where do I fit. I have usually classified myself as an optimistic amil.


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## Scott1 (Mar 23, 2011)

Great questions, and many are considering them.

A few thoughts.



Pergamum said:


> Hello,
> 
> 
> I am optimistic and I believe that the Gospel will go forth through the whole world. It will have victory and the Elect from all peoples will be drawn to faith. There will be world evangelization before the end.
> ...


 
My understanding is that historic amillenialism generally did include some sort of falling away right before our Lord returns. Not one that completely overcomes the church, but one that is pronounced. Postmillenialism and some views within amillenialism would make that figurative, and basically negate that. That's likely what is meant by "optimistic amillennialism," verses only "amillennialism."

I want to believe the former, but need to study Scripture further to come to a general view on that. 

In the end, I find quite helpful GI Williamson's words in the Westminster Confession of Faith for Study Classes, and sense could be where a thorough study of Scripture will end us up at.

To the effect that, we have reason to hope, but not demand... and have something of what might be called an optimistic amillennial or non-utopian postmillennial view.


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## reformedminister (Mar 23, 2011)

You sound like an optimistic amil to me!


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## Pergamum (Mar 23, 2011)

Scott;



> Unlike most other trees, every branch of the olive tree goes directly down to the root. So Gentiles "being grafted in" go directly down to the root just like Israel.



VERY interesting! Thanks. Do you have more info or pics or sources about this? I never knew this before.


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## torstar (Mar 23, 2011)

reformedminister said:


> You sound like an optimistic amil to me!


 

+1


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## EverReforming (Mar 23, 2011)

Pergamum said:


> Scott;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Agreed! That is something I never knew about the Olive tree. Very cool!


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## Curt (Mar 23, 2011)

Pergamum said:


> What am I and where do I fit. I have usually classified myself as an optimistic amil.



You've asked some great questions. I don't think you're any more confused than most folks on these issues. We tend to see and set some hard and fast boundaries around our eschatological categories, yet as we read Scripture and pray about such maters we all tend to fall outside the nice, tidy boxes.


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## torstar (Mar 23, 2011)

Curt said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > What am I and where do I fit. I have usually classified myself as an optimistic amil.
> ...





And adopting the amil view kind of drops the whole topic down the priority list. 

Part of the whole package.


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## Scott1 (Mar 23, 2011)

Pergamum said:


> Scott;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Google Image Result for http://holylandimports.net/olivewood%20_pictuers_Intro/OliveWoodTrees.gif

Olive trees can live to be several centuries old- it is possible some where there in the time of our Lord.


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## Peairtach (Mar 24, 2011)

*Scott*


> My understanding is that historic amillenialism generally did include some sort of falling away right before our Lord returns. Not one that completely overcomes the church, but one that is pronounced. Postmillenialism and some views within amillenialism would make that figurative, and basically negate that. That's likely what is meant by "optimistic amillennialism," verses only "amillennialism."



I think the short falling away demonstrates finally the incorrigibility of Satan and his angelic minions, and the incorrigibility of Man when grace is removed even after a long period of Gospel triumph in history.


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## Pergamum (Mar 24, 2011)

Yes, also...

I have finally come to a belief in a personal Antichrist that will be present when Christ returns and destroys him. Before I did not believe that there would be one single personage at the end of time who was the Antichrist, but now, even though I still think this word could generally refer to a spirit or a title or office, that this office will be inhabited by a person who succeeds to a large degree in falsely representing the faith. Thus, he cannot be Muslim or some other faith but must be a Christian imposter since he supposes to speak for God. It appears that he may be present, help many to defect from the faith and encourage an apostasy towards the end, and Christ will destroy him at His Second Coming.

Thus, there will be, amidst general optimism, some sort of great tribulation, falling away, or apostasy (though not necessarily 7 years or involving all those Disy teachings) and an emergence of antichrist at the end of time.


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## Peairtach (Mar 25, 2011)

The Papacy fits the bill very well for the Antichrist, although there are other antichrists too e.g. Christian Gnosticism, Liberal Christianity. An idol is set up in place of Christ in the Christian Church thus being a particularly subtle deception of Satan.

The Papacy is very personal, there's usually only one pope at a time, they ape Christ in all His offices, and the line of popes apes Christ's post-resurrection longevity. The centuries-old Papacy has done more damage to souls, than a shortlived tyrant could do at the end of history to bodies and souls.

This is not to deny that certain individuals will be involved in leading the final short apostasy, "Gog and Magog", but whether they should be classed as antichrists or the Antichrist is another matter.

At some point in Christian history the Papacy will be eliminated, as will lesser antichrists:



> but with righteousness he shall judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth; and he shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall kill the wicked. (Isaiah 11:4, ESV)





> And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. (II Thess 2:8)





> And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. (Revelation 19:20)



In Revelation 20 when the Devil is thrown into the Lake of Fire after his final rebellion in leading "Gog and Magog" he finds that his friends the beast and the false prophet are already there.


> and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)



This is an indication that the amil commentators that conflate the Battle of Armageddon with the rebellion of Gog and Magog are in the wrong.


*Pergy*


> Trying to put some of my eschatology together - what am I (besides confused)?



Clearly general eschatology between now and the end of the world, when the Lord returns, is amil or postmil or a combination of the two. 

Kicking historic premil and Dispensational premil out of the theological playing field that is one's mind early in the game - as I believe it is correct to do - certainly simplifies things.


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## Pergamum (Mar 25, 2011)

The Pope and the Catholic Church appears to be waning much in power. Could it be that evangelicalism, as it apostasizes, might be lumped in with "false Christianity" as the domain of Antichrist and the Pope counted as their head even though they may stay organizationally evangelical?


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## Peairtach (Mar 26, 2011)

> The Pope and the Catholic Church appears to be waning much in power. Could it be that evangelicalism, as it apostasizes, might be lumped in with "false Christianity" as the domain of Antichrist and the Pope counted as their head even though they may stay organizationally evangelical?



The Book of Revelation being a very symbolical book, I think it was wise of e.g. Patrick Fairbairn, not to limit Babylon the Whore - the apostate New Testament Church - to the Roman Catholic Church. He also extended it to Eastern Orthodoxy and I can't remember what else. It would also include Liberal Churches and once Protestant Churches that have effectively denied the faith.

To distinguish Antichrist and antichrists from these churches themselves: Antichrist and antichrists are the false teachers and the false teachings that replace Christ with a false Christ rather than the Church or churches themselves. 

It has to be very serious error to effectively overthrow Christ in His own visible Church and establish an idol that maybe "looks like Him" in His place. In using the word antichrist we're talking about error(s) that are so serious that they effectively deny Christ and His way of salvation, while at the same time trying not to overtly deny Him or Christianity or the Christian Church.

In all of this we are not saying that there are no true believers in these Churches; just that it will be good for their souls and for the Gospel if they get out:



> Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues; (Rev 18:4)



On the other hand there was a time when the Gospel was in these denominations - including big denominations like the RCC - and congregations, and there may be a faint echo of it in them still:



> and the light of a lamp will shine in you no more, and the voice of bridegroom and bride will be heard in you no more, (Rev 18:23)


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## Pergamum (Mar 26, 2011)

Thanks Richard, that was helpful.


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## Fogetaboutit (Mar 28, 2011)

> > The Pope and the Catholic Church appears to be waning much in power. Could it be that evangelicalism, as it apostasizes, might be lumped in with "false Christianity" as the domain of Antichrist and the Pope counted as their head even though they may stay organizationally evangelical?
> 
> 
> The Book of Revelation being a very symbolical book, I think it was wise of e.g. Patrick Fairbairn, not to limit Babylon the Whore - the apostate New Testament Church - to the Roman Catholic Church. He also extended it to Eastern Orthodoxy and I can't remember what else. It would also include Liberal Churches and once Protestant Churches that have effectively denied the faith.



I do agree that the Roman Catholic Church might not be the only apostate church but I do believe she the principle one and does represent the "Mother of Harlots" and the other apostate chrurch are her daughters.



> Revelation 17:5 (King James Version)
> 
> 5And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.



my 2 cents


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