# God's Sovereignty and Adam & the Angels



## Jan Ziska (Feb 8, 2009)

I'm reading through Sproul's _Chosen by God_ again, and I was just struck by a thought.

I've always been comfortable with our (as in fallen man's) lack of agency as a result of our fallen nature. 

But Adam pre-fall and the Angels now are not fallen. They (as I understand it) have the ability to do good and evil. How then is God sovereign over them? If they can choose or not to do as they will, doesn't that mean they could frustrate God's will in the manner the Arminians believe fallen man can?


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## ColdSilverMoon (Feb 8, 2009)

Not to be flippant, but the angels do not sin because it is the will of God that they do not sin. In the same way that Adam's sin was a part of God's will so that His love and justice would be demonstrated through salvation and He would be glorified, so the (unfallen) angels' obedience to Him is His will. It's their choice, but they cannot make a choice that's outside of God's sovereign will.


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## TimV (Feb 8, 2009)

WCF chapter 3

I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;[1] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3]

II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions;[4] yet has He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.[5]

III. *By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels[6] are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death*.[7]

IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.[8]

In a way it seems a cop out to just quote the Confession, but the alternative is 47 pages of "It seems to me". It's a hard one, though, and it took much time and struggle for me to accept this, as it ultimately seemed not fair, and Romans 9 seemed rather harsh and arbitrary, but at the end of the day Christianity is based on faith, and I have to trust that God is both sovereign in this area *as well*, and still merciful and just.


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## moral necessity (Feb 8, 2009)

Jan Ziska said:


> I'm reading through Sproul's _Chosen by God_ again, and I was just struck by a thought.
> 
> I've always been comfortable with our (as in fallen man's) lack of agency as a result of our fallen nature.
> 
> But Adam pre-fall and the Angels now are not fallen. They (as I understand it) have the ability to do good and evil. How then is God sovereign over them? If they can choose or not to do as they will, doesn't that mean they could frustrate God's will in the manner the Arminians believe fallen man can?



I've thought about this for quite a while now. But, it all boils down to this: How many God's are there? If there is one God, then there is only one who is a primary cause in the fall of all of the dominos. All other causes are "secondary causes". Within the individual creations, there is a "freedom of will", so to speak, that is free to act according to the nature of the being itself. But, the sway of the entire being has to be of God himself, or else he is not Sovereign. Responsibility is truly held within the circle of the individual beings, and so angels are responsible for their choices, as was Satan and Adam and us. But, above all, from God's perspective, his Sovereign choice and pleasure must reign and be dominant within every single atom of the entire universe at all times, or else God is not God. For it to be otherwise would imply that he created other individualistic gods, that act outside of his prerogative, which is impossible according to the original definition of God. And so, the fall of Satan was overall ordained by God. And, the fall of Adam was overall ordained by God. Otherwise, God is not the only god of the universe. Either one falls to the side of the entire Sovereignty of God in the issue, or else one believes that God created multiple gods that work and act independent of His Sovereignty. All supposed "middle ground" eventually has to succomb to one or the other, in my opinion. For many of us, this is a tough concept to grapple with, and it will be for much of our lives here. But, much comfort and peace is found within this reality of the true character and nature of God. Although He is one who has existed for billions and billions of years, in fact forever, before creation, before Satan or angels or man, and although He is one who needs nothing and depends on nothing from His created beings, yet He is a great comfort to us, when viewed from His absolute sovereignty over every single atom in the entire universe at all times. What better comfort than to know that not one molecule is out of place in your life, and to know that not one single event, no matter how dismal it may seem, is outside of His plan for your best interest in His glory? And to know, on top of that, that if anything else were happening in your life but what is transpiring right now, that it would be the worst for you, that it would fall short of a higher good that he has in mind, that you would miss out otherwise, and would not become what you are meant to be. Praise God for His Sovereignty over all of creation!

Blessings!


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## Hippo (Feb 8, 2009)

Fallen unregenerate man can only do evil, so when he is following God's will to do evil there is no vioence against his will, he is acting acording to his nature.

Pre fall it is not much different apart from man being able to do good, however as he was also able to do evil God still did not vilate his narure and man acted according to his will in sinning.

The angels are different as it is my understanding that they do not have a will as such, they just do what God wills, and God willed Satan to rebel in order to show his glory.


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