# Started a discussion on baptism with my pastor



## ReformedWretch (Oct 25, 2007)

Today at 2 p.m. I sat down for 90 minutes with my pastor to hash this out. The materials he gave me are-

What Christian Parents should know about infant Baptism -John P. Sartelle

The meaning and mode of baptism by Jay E. Adams

Infant Baptism by Vic Lockman

Baptism by Francis A. Schaeffer

William the Baptist by James M. Chaney

Transcripts from:

John P. Sartelle: Circumcision and Baptism are alike

Debate on infant Baptism between Sproul and MacArthur

Preston Graham Jr.- Arguments for Infant Baptism

and finally, a DVD by Dr. Richard L. Pratt Jr. "Why do we baptize our children".

However, to his credit my pastor spent time telling me how baptism compares so much to how see salvation. He tried to show me how I've come to accept that salvation is all about God and nothing about us and that I need to see baptism the same way. He also said that if one is going to pick one and hope he's not in error, he would rather error on the side where it's all about God. 

I liked the argument comparing how I see salvation to how I see baptism very much and the statement about which side to err on if we're in err was the side where God gets all the glory. Much to read and consider!


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## etexas (Oct 25, 2007)

houseparent said:


> Today at 2 p.m. I sat down for 90 minutes with my pastor to hash this out. The materials he gave me are-
> 
> What Christian Parents should know about infant Baptism -John P. Sartelle
> 
> ...


Adam, I am glad you got some good material (looks like you have a lot of homework),I am happy you are reading these things. I know from other threads you have seemed to look for a solid stance on the issue. I hope you find peace on this with your pastor and the material. Grace and Peace.


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## elnwood (Oct 25, 2007)

I've heard that argument before. I think it is somewhat short-sighted. What seems to follow is that paedobaptism, when practiced, is all about God, but when credobaptism is practiced, it is not all about God.

Of course, paedobaptists practice both paedobaptism and credobaptism, so does that mean when they administer it to a professing believer, God doesn't get all the glory? I think God gets all the glory in credobaptism as well.

I'm surprised that he didn't include John Murray's _Christian Baptism_.


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## ReformedWretch (Oct 25, 2007)

Well, the idea is that credobaptists (which currently I am one) are baptized as a profession as to what they believe. Yes, the glory goes to God but in a small way it's sort of "hey look, I'm a Christian!" As a credo, I can confirm that this is how it was taught to me. Profess who and what you are by what you are doing. In that way, it relates to how I used to think that I was saved because I chose to believe.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Oct 25, 2007)

I use to see it that away before I was saved Adam, but I see baptism as a response to what God has done in my life. Just like my faith. It comes from God and is a response to regeneration. It is a picture of a reality in my life. That isn't for the non confessing person. BTW, we use to say that phrase also when promoting Calvinism. It has been applied to a few doctrinal beliefs. And I do believe it is also the gateway to church membership so it does kinda reveal to those around us what we are and to whom we belong.


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## turmeric (Oct 25, 2007)

I was surprised, (I was credo at the time) how much I liked Sartelle. You'll find him charming, I think, and while he may not change your mind, he _will_ make you think!


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## Kevin (Oct 25, 2007)

houseparent said:


> Today at 2 p.m. I sat down for 90 minutes with my pastor to hash this out. The materials he gave me are-
> 
> What Christian Parents should know about infant Baptism -John P. Sartelle
> 
> ...




Those books are a good place to start.

I pray that God will make his word clear to you and give you peace.


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## Iconoclast (Oct 25, 2007)

*Identification*



houseparent said:


> Well, the idea is that credobaptists (which currently I am one) are baptized as a profession as to what they believe. Yes, the glory goes to God but in a small way it's sort of "hey look, I'm a Christian!" As a credo, I can confirm that this is how it was taught to me. Profess who and what you are by what you are doing. In that way, it relates to how I used to think that I was saved because I chose to believe.



I think that what is often missed is the idea of Identification with Christ. It should not be at all "hey look at me".
It should be that God has saved me,the Spirit has indwelled me, I have counted the cost and by the mercy of God
I freely and openly confess Christ,not only in my baptism but in my daily walk as well.
In John's baptism,people identified with the message. In christian baptism we identify with the promise of the Father
that He would not leave Christ in the grave,but He as the first fruits would be raised,and then us in Him

23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 

24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 

25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 

26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 

27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 

28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 

29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 

30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 

31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 

32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 

33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 

34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 

35Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 

36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 

37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 

39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. 

The promise of the Father [union with Christ in His death and resurrection applied by The Spirit to as many
as are called to salvation in time]


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## Semper Fidelis (Oct 25, 2007)

Instead of debating the specific aspects of this issue I will simply affirm that he has his finger on the pulse of the issue and leave the rest to you and your Pastor. It's good to hear that you have a Pastor that takes Pastoral care seriously.


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## Ivan (Oct 25, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> Instead of debating the specific aspects of this issue I will simply affirm that he has his finger on the pulse of the issue and leave the rest to you and your Pastor. It's good to hear that you have a Pastor that takes Pastoral care seriously.



Amen!

Adam, may the Holy Spirit will be your Guide.


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## etexas (Oct 25, 2007)

Ivan said:


> SemperFideles said:
> 
> 
> > Instead of debating the specific aspects of this issue I will simply affirm that he has his finger on the pulse of the issue and leave the rest to you and your Pastor. It's good to hear that you have a Pastor that takes Pastoral care seriously.
> ...


Amen.


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## KMK (Oct 26, 2007)

> 2 Cor 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace: and the God of love and peace shall be with you.





> Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they warch for your souls, as they that must give account; that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.



You are a good example to all of us Adam!


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## Davidius (Oct 26, 2007)

elnwood said:


> I've heard that argument before. I think it is somewhat short-sighted. What seems to follow is that paedobaptism, when practiced, is all about God, but when credobaptism is practiced, it is not all about God.
> 
> Of course, paedobaptists practice both paedobaptism and credobaptism, so does that mean when they administer it to a professing believer, God doesn't get all the glory? I think God gets all the glory in credobaptism as well.
> 
> I'm surprised that he didn't include John Murray's _Christian Baptism_.



The point is, most Baptists believe that the baptism is something that the recipient is saying to the world/the Church/God, not something that God is saying to the recipient/the Church/the world.


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## KMK (Oct 26, 2007)

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> elnwood said:
> 
> 
> > I've heard that argument before. I think it is somewhat short-sighted. What seems to follow is that paedobaptism, when practiced, is all about God, but when credobaptism is practiced, it is not all about God.
> ...



Unfortunately, 'most' baptists have no idea what baptism means except maybe church membership.


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## Calvibaptist (Oct 26, 2007)

KMK said:


> CarolinaCalvinist said:
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> 
> > elnwood said:
> ...



I would say that is probably true of 'most' presbyterians as well (except for those on this board).


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## KMK (Oct 26, 2007)

Calvibaptist said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> > CarolinaCalvinist said:
> ...



 That's why the 'most' arguments don't really apply.


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## elnwood (Oct 26, 2007)

Calvibaptist said:


> KMK said:
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> 
> > CarolinaCalvinist said:
> ...





I can't tell you how many times I've heard the difference explained by paedobaptists that credobaptism is based on the faith of the believer, and paedobaptism is based on the faith of the parents. I hear it all the time, and to an extent it is true.

Does that make paedobaptism about us and not all about God? Of course not. The critique, then, should not be levelled against credobaptism either.


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## Southern Presbyterian (Oct 26, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> Instead of debating the specific aspects of this issue I will simply affirm that he has his finger on the pulse of the issue and leave the rest to you and your Pastor. It's good to hear that you have a Pastor that takes Pastoral care seriously.



Amen!



Ivan said:


> Adam, may the Holy Spirit will be your Guide.



And, Amen!


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## Archlute (Oct 26, 2007)

KMK said:


> CarolinaCalvinist said:
> 
> 
> > elnwood said:
> ...



Having been in both settings, one thing that I have noticed is that Presbyterian churches tend to do a much better job during the baptismal service in explaining the significance of baptism to the congregation. Of course, Presbyterians have many more sermons and passages in Scripture by which they can explain these things to their churches - they use both Testaments


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## PuritanCovenanter (Oct 27, 2007)

Archlute said:


> Having been in both settings, one thing that I have noticed is that Presbyterian churches tend to do a much better job during the baptismal service in explaining the significance of baptism to the congregation. Of course, Presbyterians have many more sermons and passages in Scripture by which they can explain these things to their churches - they use both Testaments



Having been in both settings these past 26 years, I can say something also. But this is about Adam and his seeking God. It is about continuity and discontinuity which all on this board adhere to at some level. Be Encouraged Adam at seeking God's face and His word concerning what He says. 

We will all pray for you. Either way He will be glorified. I am sure of it.


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## Archlute (Oct 27, 2007)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> Archlute said:
> 
> 
> > Having been in both settings, one thing that I have noticed is that Presbyterian churches tend to do a much better job during the baptismal service in explaining the significance of baptism to the congregation. Of course, Presbyterians have many more sermons and passages in Scripture by which they can explain these things to their churches - they use both Testaments
> ...



Having the same name here really tweaks things at times. I was thinking, "What's up with Randy praying for me all of a sudden? Does he think that I've lost my way because I'm a convinced paedobaptist?"

For sure, Adam L. We will be praying for you, as it is a challenging doctrine, and a struggle with which many a thinking Christian has had to wrestle at one time or another.


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