# His chastening -- the waiting for His deliverance -- His encouragement and warning



## Turtle (Jul 3, 2010)

Can we agree that God, in times past, has made His faithfulness to His people known by explaining beforehand the events He promised to bring to pass and also by His instructions explaining what they must do in faith, in the light of His revelation to them?

For example, consider the Lord's communication of His faithfulness to His people, when they were in Moab, before they went into the promised land -- the words He delivered through Moses. 

Moses explained a chastening that awaited the Lord's people if they turned to other gods (Deut 29). The Lord commanded Moses to stand before the people and testify a covenant to them, words of blessing and cursing. In paraphrase, he said, "If you turn your heart away from the Lord your God and worship idols you will provoke the Lord's wrath, making His anger and jealousy smoke. You will be scattered among the nations and the land will be as brimstone and salt, even like Sodom and Gomorrah that the Lord overthrew in his anger. For generations, many will come from afar and see the desolation and plagues upon you. All the nations will ask, "Why hath the Lord done thus unto this land…?" In answer, "Because they have forsaken the covenant of the Lord, because they went and served other gods. The anger of the Lord was kindled, to bring upon them all the curses that are written in this book." Did He not explain this to His people ahead of time in order that they would know Him and remember His words?

Moses explained that this chastening would be wearisome and would eventually cause them to remember in order that they would hope in His deliverance (Deut 30). To paraphrase, he said, "Being scattered among all the nations that the Lord has driven you to, it will come to pass that you will recall to mind all these sayings that I have told you this day. He will circumcise thine heart and the heart of thy seed and you will turn your hearts again to the Lord to obey His voice, together with your children. With all your heart and with all your soul you will obey His voice according to all that I have commanded. Then the Lord thy God will return and have compassion on thee, and will gather thee from all the nations whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee. If any have been driven out unto the uttermost parts of heaven, even from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will He fetch thee. And He will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it, and be multiplied above thy fathers. And the Lord thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and upon them that hate thee." A wearisome road awaited them but there was hope that the Lord would eventually deliver them, even from His chastening.

In light of God's communication of what events and circumstances would come to pass, Moses provided encouragement and warning to them. "The word is very nigh unto thee, in they mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it" (the righteousness of faith, Deut 30:14, Rom 10:8). He continued, "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live."

It seems to me that the Lord Jesus Christ spoke a very similar communication of God's faithfulness to His people by explaining beforehand events that He promised would come to pass and by giving them encouragement and warning… instructions that they must follow in faith, in light of His revelation to them.

For example, consider the Lord's communication recounted in Matthew chapters 23-25. He began by recalling Moses. He told the multitudes and His disciples to observe and do the words of Moses. "The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say and do not." 

Jesus pronounced the grievous woe coming upon the scribes and Pharisees because they lived contrary to Moses (Matt 23). He said all the righteous blood shed upon the earth would be upon them. He lamented, "Jerusalem, Jerusalem how oft would I have gathered thy children, as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold your house is left unto you desolate." In fulfillment of Jesus' words, not one stone of the temple effectively was left one upon another, during Jerusalem's destruction of 70 AD. 

This pronounced desolation is reminiscent of that spoken by Moses in Deuteronomy 29. When Moses warned of the desolation, it was explained to be a means of chastening and therefore it provided a measure of hope that the Lord's people were not fully cast off (Moses' Song, Deut 32). Was it any different when Jesus spoke of the desolation to Jerusalem? "Behold your house is left unto you desolate." Was this a permanent desolation with no hope of ever being gathered again by the Lord? Well, He told them the duration of their desolation.. It would last until they saw Him again and said, "Blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord" (Matt 23:39, referring to Psalm 118, which summarizes also the joys Moses declared in Deut 30… Joys of deliverance to them when the Lord would return and gather them.) Has God cast away His people? Is there no remnant, according to the election of grace, that understands the chastening against Jerusalem (if it was a chastening for a remnant) and is there no remnant that is waiting/hoping for the merciful deliverance that Jesus referred to in Psalm 118? The desolation was determined. 

Once Jesus eliminates any confusion regarding the imminent desolation of Jerusalem, is it not the case that His first concern for His disciples is that they be not deceived by another that will come falsely in His name, promising a false deliverance (Matt 24)? It seems to me he tells them beforehand of the many struggles and temptations (part and parcel to the interim desolation) that will occur until He returns to save them.. save them as He referenced according to Ps 118. There will be many trials and temptations threatening to overcome them as they wait. Wars will be wearisome. All nations will hate them. Many will betray one another. False Christs will deceive many, but he that endures to the end will be saved. Saved not by the false Christ who is in the desert or hiding in a secret chamber, but by the Christ who comes and gathers His elect from the four winds, even from one end of heaven to the other to perform the hope of Ps 118. They can look forward to being saved but they also are to know that the level of tribulation while they wait will not remain constant, but when it increases there will be signs to know that their redemption is nigh.

In times past, God's people brought upon themselves tribulations by joining themselves to idols. Moses warned the people not to commit themselves to the idols of the nations, idols that were merely made of wood, silver, and gold. They departed from their God and eventually they were overcome by the Babylonians. In Jesus' day the Lord's people had committed themselves to a religious system subservient to Rome and together they were overcome by their cruel masters. In both of these case God's people adopted false "idols" of their own choosing and were deceived to claim for themselves a false utopia. Their hopes of enduring peace collapsed upon them as their world degenerated into grievous tribulations upon them. It is the Lord who pronounced desolation and deliverance. It is He alone who chastens and He alone who has mercy. If they tried to escape the chastening of the Lord by casting their hope to idols, could they reasonably expect anything but greater tribulation? What circumstances would precipitate a greatest tribulation?

In the times to come after Jesus spoke to His disciples, He warned them that false Christs would arrive with signs and wonders to lead away even the very elect if possible, leading them to a new utopia, a false deliverance from the desolation the Lord pronounced. In order to be convincing, wouldn't a false Christ have to claim to be the one who establishes the merciful deliverance of Psalm 118, the true paradise Christ referred to? What would happen if the Jews accepted the one who's coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or is worshiped, so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God? What if this false Christ deceived them, and they joined themselves to him, to receive the promised comfort for which Jesus told them to wait for? And what if the Jews not only enthusiastically received such a persuasive false Christ for themselves, but they also persuaded everyone on earth (accept for the very elect) to also worship him as the long awaited Christ? What degree of systemic degeneration, collapse, and tribulation would everyone deserve? As great as that tribulation would be, it would not compare to the consequences for those who don't remain faithful waiting for the true, triumphant Christ, nor would it compare to the glory to be revealed in those who do patiently overcome, waiting for Him until the end.

Is not the the warning and encouragement to endure to the end laid out in Matt 24:36 and on through Ch 25?

It seems to me that in Matt 23-25, the Lord Jesus Christ foretold the two events, the desolation of Jerusalem (a chastening?) and His second coming (the deliverance?), in order to explain once again to them God's faithfulness to His people (in like manner as Moses, a type of Christ, understood and testified) and to give them encouragement and warning to persevere in faith, hope, and love, as they wait for Him, strengthened in the light of His revelations to them. What do you think? 



_Rejoice, O ye gentiles, with His people: for He will avenge the blood of His servants, and will render vengeance to His adversaries, and will be merciful unto His land, and to His people. _ (Deut 32:43, Rom 15:10)


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## Porter (Jul 10, 2010)

> It seems to me that in Matt 23-25, the Lord Jesus Christ foretold the two events, the desolation of Jerusalem (a chastening?) and His second coming (the deliverance?), in order to explain once again to them God's faithfulness to His people (in like manner as Moses, a type of Christ, understood and testified) and to give them encouragement and warning to persevere in faith, hope, and love, as they wait for Him, strengthened in the light of His revelations to them. What do you think?



Hi Turtle. I don't think two events are in view (the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D.70 - yes, but not the second coming). I believe Jesus, in Matthew 23-25 was bringing to bear upon apostate Israel the full weight of divine sanctions for violating the covenant and "filling up the measure of their fathers' guilt" (Matt. 23:32). In other words, they (the jews) were bringing upon themselves the vengeance of God, not fatherly chastening. The desolation of Jerusalem was no chastening (which usually has in view correction unto a refined or restored state), but rather an act of vengeance whereby apostate Israel (the sons of those who murdered the prophets, who were now the generation that murdered the Just One, Jesus Christ) was finally cut-off, the kingdom now being given to a nation bearing the fruits of it (the church, Matthew 21:43). I do not believe the second coming is in view in Matthew 23 to 25, and deliverance was not being promised to those upon whom Christ was pronouncing woes, but rather imprecation - malediction - was being dished out to those to whom Christ was speaking (regarding the audience in Matthew 23, that is. In Matthew 24, and the synoptic parallels, he is speaking to His pre-A.D.70 people, Christians, to flee the city when they see Jerusalem surrounded by armies). Certainly God is faithful to His people - and there is the presence of this in chapter 23 - 25, but more in view is God's wholesome severity and furious judgment (as differentiated from chastisement) against His Old Covenant people who had "filled up the measure of their fathers' guilt", followed by Christ answering His disciples questions regarding the destruction of the temple, then by the fact that Christ will rule and reign as judge (something that, in a peculiar way, began at His resurrection/ascension, but would also include the destruction of the temple). There is deliverance for those who are Christ's (salvifically, to be sure, but more to the thrust of Matthew 24 - the Christian "exodus" from destruction by fleeing Jerusalem), but to those unrepentant malediction recipients (Matthew 23:13-36) there is no fatherly chastisement, and no deliverance.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Jul 11, 2010)

Hey Cam,

One of the questions asked of Christ – and answered by Him – was “what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world”, so it would not be far-fetched to at least look to see if He spoke of more than the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

In verses 4–8 He is talking in a larger scope than just locally (i.e., just the fate of Jerusalem and Israel), and in verse 9 He talks of His disciples being “hated of all nations for my name’s sake”, while in 10 He talks of many being offended (_skandalizo_, Strong’s #4624), and apostatizing, which 12 indicates is partly because iniquity shall abound and thus the love of many shall wax cold. Verse 13 also seems to be of greater scope than just locally: “he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved” – and the next verse, 14, speaks specifically of the very end of the age,



> And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.



The church shall be in sorry shape come the time of the (very) end, and there will be a great falling away (2 Thess 2:3), greatly due to the rise of false prophets and teachers within the precincts of the spiritual temple, and the persecution that shall arise shall separate the false professors from the people.

In 15, when the Lord speaks of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel, this is the 2nd of multiple fulfillments of this prophecy (more on this phenomena _*here*_), the 1st being when Antiochus Epiphanes desecrated the temple in 168 BC. The Lord was saying there would be a second, which happened in 70 AD, and Scripture shows there shall be a 3rd desecration, which we see in 2 Thess 2:4. From Matt 24 verses 15 to 21 we see what is to come upon Jerusalem, though in 21 there is a transition to include the great troubles of the people of God at the end of the age, which is made clear in 27, with Jesus saying His coming shall be like the lightning shining from the east to the west – and everyone shall see it. In 29 through 31 He talks of His return after the _*final*_ tribulation (the two tribulations are woven together, Jerusalem and the end of the world, the former foreshadowing the latter), and the gathering of the elect, just as He did in the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matt 13 – using the very same imagery.

So there _are_ two events in Matt 24, though I would agree with you that what comes upon Jerusalem is not fatherly chastisement, but righteous vengeance, which has followed my people up through the centuries (for I am one of them – yet He had mercy upon this wretch), seeing as they, in the main, follow their rabbis into the ditch of Gehenna, even to this day. Thankfully He has kept a remnant who have cleaved to Him, and joined the Israel He established at Pentecost, where He cut off the renegades like a butcher gristle from the meat, and ordered His holy nation around Him.

I wondered if that was your real photo, and went to Sermon Audio and saw it was – the real you, and not a mere Rambo-Baptist image. Good to see you here!


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## Porter (Jul 14, 2010)

Hi Steve!



> yet He had mercy upon this wretch



Praise God, brother!



> I wondered if that was your real photo, and went to Sermon Audio and saw it was – the real you, and not a mere Rambo-Baptist image. Good to see you here!



Ha! Thanks for the photo-verification research!



> One of the questions asked of Christ – and answered by Him – was “what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world”, so it would not be far-fetched to at least look to see if He spoke of more than the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.



They actually asked “what shall be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age” (“age” being a better translation, as elsewhere, such as 1 Cor. 10:11, which, by the way, is a good "consent of the parts" qualifier for the timing of Matthew 24). It’s not far-fetched to at least look to see if He spoke of more than the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, unless you define far-fetched as “not properly or naturally deduced from the relative subject matter”. But, whether or not the disciples posed one question, or multiple ones (that is to suppose distinct and separate events represented by their respective questions) is inconsequential to the answer Christ gives, even though the narrative inclusion of the question is most certainly inspired by God, infallible, and inerrant.  If I was forced to choose, I would side with Gill who simply comments that the disciples’ questioning indicated an understanding of the destruction of the temple, the coming of the Lord Jesus (not the 2nd coming), and the end of age (cessation of the Jewish economy) to be a concert of events that took place in AD 70. Christ closes a portion of His response with “_Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place._” The efforts of many notwithstanding who argue, against the clear consistency of Christ’s use of this language everywhere else, that this does not mean “the generation to whom Christ was speaking”, these words of Christ stamp the passage with near fulfillment within the lifetime of His audience.



> In verses 4–8 He is talking in a larger scope than just locally (i.e., just the fate of Jerusalem and Israel),



You have to give evidence as to why you can just, matter-of-fact, state that “He is talking in a larger scope than just locally", especially in light of: (1) the fact of the inseparable context describing Judean architecture and geography; (2) the “joined at the hip” parallel passage (Luke 21) that affirms – by way of reference to an encircling Roman Army - a first century fulfillment; (3) the clear time text (Matt. 24:34), marked by inviolable canonical consistency (Matt. 11:6; 12:41,42,45; 17:17; 23:36; Mark 8:12; 8:38, etc., etc.), that qualifies the answer of Christ as containing only an AD 70 body of signs, and (4) Jesus' use of the second-person plural “you” directed toward His disciples (not the same as the Deuteronomical “you” pertaining to the body of OC Israel). There is no textual demand for larger scope – even if we did not have, already, the time text that qualifies these verses as taking place before that first-century audience passed away, and even if we did not have the further qualifier that Jesus uses the second-person plural.



> and in verse 9 He talks of His disciples being “hated of all nations for my name’s sake”,



This took place prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.



> while in 10 He talks of many being offended (skandalizo, Strong’s #4624), and apostatizing, which 12 indicates is partly because iniquity shall abound and thus the love of many shall wax cold.



This also took place prior to AD 70 – the subsequent NT epistles clearly show this.



> Verse 13 also seems to be of greater scope than just locally: “he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved”



Again, there is no textual demand to view anything beyond the scope of a local judgment (and I mean that, “local”, in a geographic sense which does not steal from the fact of this judgment carrying a grand theological significance). It is not “the end of human history before the eternal state is commenced”, but the end of the period of tribulation leading up to the destruction of the temple and the city.



> and the next verse, 14, speaks specifically of the very end of the age, And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.



Yes, it does speak of the very end of the age – the end of the Jewish economy that Jesus promised would come when those leasing the vineyard from the Landowner “are killed miserably” (Matthew 21:41) and the kingdom is taken from them and “given to a nation bearing the fruits of it” (Matthew 21:43); an end that other authors assign to the first-century (for example, 1 Cor. 10:11). 

The gospel of the kingdom _was_ preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations before the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70: Romans 16:26; Colossians 1:5,6; Acts 2:5. Then the end _did _come (the end of the age, the Jewish age, that which Paul said would happen to his generation, just as Christ is here [1 Cor. 10:11]).

I am certain, to employ wholesome assumption, you would not affirm that when Luke wrote “_it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered_” he did not mean to convey Caesar was decreeing that every single nation on this terrestrial sphere – even those outside his imperial rule – were to be subject to Roman census. 



> The church shall be in sorry shape come the time of the (very) end, and there will be a great falling away (2 Thess 2:3), greatly due to the rise of false prophets and teachers within the precincts of the spiritual temple, and the persecution that shall arise shall separate the false professors from the people.



The church _was_ in sorry shape before the end of that age (read: 2 Peter, 1 & 2 Thess., 1 & 2 Timothy, Galatians, Corinthians, 1 & 2 Corinthians, 1 John, Jude - to name a few out of canonical order), and there was great persecution. Again, the language here does not demand an interpretation beyond AD 70.

As with 2 Thess. 2, that, as well, saw a 1st century fulfillment. That is one of the reasons Paul discloses, by way of a significant amount of text, particular things to the Thessalonians – so that Jesus might “comfort [their] hearts and establish [them] in every good word and work.” He was writing to contemporaries about a contemporary son of perdition so that, contemporaneous with the coming trials, they might have an abundance of comfort in the Triune God of Holy Scripture (2 Thess. 2:13-17).



> In 15, when the Lord speaks of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel…Scripture shows there shall be a 3rd desecration, which we see in 2 Thess 2:4.



I don’t want to get into multiple fulfillments of prophecy (I like Milton Terry on this) right now, but Scripture does not have in view a third desecration in our future – Matthew 24 and 2 Thess. 2, by internal time qualifiers (Matthew 24:34, the direct audience addressed by “you”, the geographic and architectural indicators; 2 Thess. 2:1, by language respecting contemporaneous events and knowledge of persons), are concerned with first-century events and fulfillments. While there will always be tribulation of varying degrees of severity prior to the eschaton, _the_ great tribulation occurred in the events leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. And, again, even devoid of the actual textual time-qualifiers, there is no textual demand for a futuristic interpretation.



> From Matt 24 verses 15 to 21 we see what is to come upon Jerusalem, though in 21 there is a transition to include the great troubles of the people of God at the end of the age



There is no transition from near events to ones far-off. Jesus continues the flow of thought respecting a coming judgment upon that generation by repeating warnings to his immediate audience. Verse 27 does not add any force to an argument for a future fulfillment.



> So there are two events in Matt 24



Just one, though a grand event comprised of much! 

[Wholesome and genuine post-reply qualification: I am not a full preterist] 

God bless Brother!


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## Jerusalem Blade (Jul 15, 2010)

Jerusalem Blade meets Rambo Baptist


Cam, to equate _aeon_ (age or world) with the time period of “the Jewish economy” – the age of the Jews – is not in accord with its usage in Scripture, and to use the question of the apostles, “...what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age? [end of the world: AV]” (Matt 24) as an example of such usage is begging the question – i.e., asserting what remains to be proven.

I have no objection to using the word _age_ to translate _aeon_, but I certainly would object to your saying it is “a better translation”. Shanghaiing into postmil service 1 Cor 10:11’s “upon whom the ends of the age – or world – are come” is surely _not_ “a good ‘consent of parts’ qualifier for the timing of Matthew 24”! It is common for the NT to speak of the church age, or the period from Christ’s first advent to His last, as “these last days” (Heb 1:2), “the last days” (2 Pet 3:3; 2 Tim 3:1), “it is the last time” (1 John 2:18), “the end of all things is at hand” (1 Pet 4:7), “the end of the world” (Heb 9:26), and such like. 1 Cor 10:11 is in the same league as these.

The Scripture knows of only two ages – _aeons_ – “this age” and “the age to come”, as in Matt 12:32, where Jesus spoke to the Pharisees of “the sin that shall not be forgiven . . . neither in this world [or age], neither in the world [age] to come.” There is not a “Jewish age” that one may wrest into the NT usage of _aeon_, making a _third_ age! Yes, there is a beginning and end of national Israel, but it is not called an age! Yes, there is an old covenant period, and a new covenant period, but these both exist in what Paul calls “this present evil world” (Gal 1:4), or as John puts it, “we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness” (1 John 5:19). (Yes, John uses the Greek _kosmos_ here, but here it has the same sense as _aeon_. John hardly ever uses _aeon_ for world, though in his gospel, at 9:32 he does.)

In the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matt 13:24-30, 36-43), Jesus shows that there is the _aeon_ where the wicked and righteous live side by side; then comes “the end of this world” (or _age_ if you must), and the world to come, where “the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.” The disciples heard their Master using this phrase, referring to the end of this present world, the eschaton, so it is not at all far-fetched if in Matt 24:3 when they use the exact same phrase in their question to Him, “. . . what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

You know, Cam, if we go toe-to-toe on the all the points involved – and there are many – what it will really come down to is just interpreting the Biblical data according to our respective paradigms. The “clear time text” you mention, Matt 24:34, is not at all so clear (I’ll post something from another thread on this below), and while I appreciate your scholarship and zeal, I am simply not convinced that your hermeneutic is sound, and no doubt the feeling is mutual.

Time to hit the sack for now! To be continued.

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From the thread, http://www.puritanboard.com/f46/question-matthew-24-a-57465/#post744765:

While discussing these issues, I’d like to introduce 3 commentators and their views, to show the reasonableness of their approaches, though they differ somewhat. I favor Leon Morris’ view, but I won’t be dogmatic about it.

I think Pastor Bruce in post #19 answered well with regard to “aeon”. Jesus said in Matt 28:20, “I am with you always, even unto the end of the _aeon_” – age, or world. Generally speaking, there are two ages: this present age, and the age to come – the eternal state (cf. Matt 12:32)


Leon Morris

[O]thers have suggested that the _generation_ is the Jewish nation (it means “not just the first generation after Jesus but all the generations of Judaism that reject him,” Schweizer, p. 458; so also Ryle, Hendriksen, and others) and point to its continuation through the centuries...

We should notice that in the Old Testament the term [generation] is sometimes used for a kind of person, as when we read of “the generation of the righteous” (Ps. 14:5) or “the generation of those who seek him” (Ps. 24:6). From passages like this some have taken Jesus to mean that the church will survive to the end (e.g., Green). But the term is also used of the wicked, as when the Psalmist prays, “guard us ever from this generation” (Ps. 12:7); or it may refer to “the generation of his wrath” (Jer. 7:29). If this is its meaning, Jesus is saying that this kind of person, “this generation,” will not cease until the fulfillment of his words. It is perhaps relevant to notice that a little earlier Jesus said of people to whom he was speaking, “you killed” Zechariah (23:35), a statement that implies the solidarity of the race through the years. Mounce draws attention to the phenomenon of multiple fulfilment. He points out that the “abomination of desolation” had one fulfilment in the desecration effected by Antiochus Epiphanes and another in the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman armies. “In a similar way, the events of the immediate period leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem portend a greater and more universal catastrophe when Christ returns in judgment at the end of time.” Right up to the time when _all these things happen_ there will be people of the same stamp as those who rejected Jesus while he lived on earth. (Leon Morris, _The Gospel According to Matthew_, pp. 612, 613)​

D.A. Carson

In my understanding of the Olivet Discourse, the _disciples_ think of Jerusalem’s destruction and the eschatological end as a single complex web of events. This accounts for the form of their questions. Jesus warns them there will be a delay _before_ the End—a delay characterized by persecution and tribulation for all his followers (vv. 4-28), but with one particularly violent display of judgment in the Fall of Jerusalem (vv. 15-21); Mark 13:14-20); Luke 21:20-24). Immediately after the days of that sustained persecution characterizing the interadvent period comes the Second Advent (vv. 29-31; cf. Guthrie, _NT Theology_, pp. 795-96). The warning in vv. 32-35 describes the whole tribulation period, from the Ascension to the Second Advent. The tribulation period will certainly come, and the generation to which Jesus is speaking will experience all its features that point to the Lord’s return...

“This generation” (see on 11:16; 12:41-42; 23:36); cf. 10:23; 16:28) can only with the greatest difficulty be made to mean anything other than the generation living when Jesus spoke. Even if “generation” by itself can have a slightly larger semantic range, to make “_this_ generation” refer to all believers in every age, or the generation of believers alive when eschatological events start to happen, is highly artificial. Yet it does not follow that Jesus mistakenly thought the Parousia would occur within his hearers’ lifetime. If our interpretation of this chapter is right, all that v. 34 demands is that the distress of vv. 2-28, including Jerusalem’s fall, happen within the lifetime of the generation then living. This does _not_ mean that the distress must end within that time but only that “all these things” must happen within it. Therefore v. 34 sets a _terminus a quo_ [A starting point in time] for the Parousia: it cannot happen till the events in vv. 4-28 take place, all within a generation of A.D. 30. But there is no _terminus ad quem_ [A final limiting point in time] to this distress other than the Parousia itself, and “only the Father” knows when it will happen (v. 36). (D.A. Carson, _The Expositor’s Bible Commentary, Vol. 8: Matthew_, pp. 495, 507)​

John Calvin

_This generation shall not pass away_. Though Christ employs a general expression, yet he does not extend the discourses to all the miseries which would befall the Church, but merely informs them, that before a single _generation_ shall have been completed, they will learn by experience the truth of what he has said. For within fifty years the city was destroyed and the temple was razed, the whole country was reduced to a hideous desert, and the obstinacy of the world rose up against God. Nay more, their rage was inflamed to exterminate the doctrine of salvation, false teachers arose to corrupt the pure gospel by their impostures, religion sustained amazing shocks, and the whole company of the godly was miserably distressed. Now though the same evils were perpetrated in uninterrupted succession for many ages afterwards, yet what Christ said was true, that, before the close of a single _generation_, believers would feel in reality, and by undoubted experience, the truth of his prediction; for the apostles endured the same things which we see in the present day. And yet it was not the design of Christ to promise to his followers that their calamities would be terminated within a short time, (for then he would have contradicted himself, having previously warned them that _the end was not yet;_) but, in order to encourage them to perseverance, he expressly foretold that those things related to their own age. The meaning therefore is: “This prophecy does not relate to evils that are distant, and which posterity will see after the lapse of many centuries, but which are now hanging over you, and ready to fall in one mass, so that there is no part of it which the present _generation_ will not experience.” So then, while our Lord heaps upon a single _generation_ every kind of calamities, he does not by any means exempt future ages from the same kind of sufferings, but only enjoins the disciples to be prepared for enduring them all with firmness. (John Calvin, _Commentary on Matthew, Mark, Luke_, Vol. 3 [online edition]).​

With regard to the structure of the Lord’s Olivet discourse, the phenomenon of prophetic foreshortening, also referred to as double or multiple fulfillment of prophecy, helps to make clearer sense of the passage.

William Hendriksen

By the process of prophetic foreshortening, by means of which before one’s eyes the widely separated mountain peaks of historic events merge and are seen as one, as has been explained in connection with 10:23 and 16:28, two momentous events are here intertwined, namely, a. the judgment upon Jerusalem (its fall in the year A.D. 70), and b. the final judgment at the close of the world’s history. Our Lord predicts the city’s approaching catastrophe as a type of the tribulation at the end of the dispensation. Or, putting it differently, in describing the brief period of great tribulation at the close of history, ending with the final judgment, Jesus is painting in colors borrowed from the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. (William Hendriksen, _New Testament Commentary: Matthew_, pp. 846-7

From what immediately follows [Matt 24:21, 22] it is evident once again that for Jesus the transition from the second to the third application of Daniel’s prediction was as easy as that from the first (the tribulation experienced by God’s people during the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes) to the second (the distress in connection with the fall of Jerusalem . . . [see vv. 21 and 22] . . . As to the “great tribulation” to which Jesus here refers, care should be exercised. Rev. 7:14 also speaks about a “great tribulation.” Are these two the same? The answer is: they are not. As the context in Revelation 7 indicates, the word is used there in a far more general sense. Because of his faith every genuine child of God experiences tribulation during his life on earth. See John 16:33; cf. Rom. 8:18; 2 Cor. 4:17; 2 Tim 3:12. But Jesus is here speaking about a tribulation that will characterize “those days,” a tribulation that has never been and never again shall be, _a very brief period of dire distress that shall occur immediately before his return_ (see verses 29-31). It is the period mentioned also in Rev. 11:7-9; 20:3b, 7-9a. For the sake of God’s chosen ones... in order that not all might have to die a violent death, the days of the final tribulation shall be cut short. Herein, too, the love of God is made manifest. It should hardly be necessary to add that justice is not done to the concept of this tribulation, which immediately precedes “the end” of the world’s history and which surpasses any other distress in its intensity, if it is referred solely to the sorrows experienced during the fall of Jerusalem. (Hendriksen, _ibid_, pp. 859, 860)​


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## Porter (Jul 15, 2010)

Thanks for the reply J-Blade! I like you, and the tenor of your responses. "Talk" to you soon! Also, I like your employment of the word "shanghaiing", and I plan to reciprocate its usage in the future. 

In Christ...


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## Jerusalem Blade (Jul 16, 2010)

Hello Cam,

Your “wholesome assumption” is correct with regard to my understanding the Biblical phrases, “the nations”, “all the world”, and “the whole world” do not always mean the world in its entirety or the nations in their entirety, but may mean just the _known_ world, or the empire of Rome, or only the Jewish people (re this latter, see John 12:19).

Such phrases may, however, also mean exactly the nations in their entirety, as in the Lord’s commission to us to “teach all nations” (Matt 28:19), or the entire world (meaning all the nations besides Israel, though not all individuals in those nations), as when John says Christ is the propitiation, not for our (the Jews) sins only, “but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2). When Jesus says to His disciples that they shall be witnesses to Him not only in Jerusalem, Judæa, and Samaria, but “unto the uttermost part of the earth” (Acts 1:8), this shows He has _all the nations_ on His mind when He sees “this gospel of the kingdom preached in all the world for a witness to all nations” (Matt 24:14). 

To the folks with Him then it was no doubt understood as the known world (they had no clue the North American continent or New Zealand or Australia even existed), but to limit the Lord’s saying – _and meaning!_ – to merely the Roman empire implies He did not speak things knowing that His people centuries into the future would also have need of His counsel and vision, but only the 1st century church. This limiting of the Lord’s commission (and His saying in verse 14 _is_ a commission) only to the nations of the Roman Empire, seems much like the ancient Asian custom of binding women’s feet so they could fit into miniature shoes. In this case the postmil school is binding many of the Lord’s words to fit into their truncated vision.

To limit the witness of 14 to the nations of the Roman Empire, and when the witness gets to them, “then shall the end come”: the end of the Jewish nation – this really squeezes the truth the Lord is communicating into a tiny and unintended meaning. And to have this be the exegetical framework by which the NT is unpacked, is to me a disastrous thing.

Pastorally, the harm this school causes is that it tends to lull the saints with vision of a more peaceful sojourn instead of bracing and preparing them to suffer horrific affliction and persecution – which some of our brethren are suffering even now. The time for the West is coming.

When the amil school preaches well, they give the vision of increasing tribulation as the end draws near, and alerts its people so as “to understand the times, to know what Israel ought to do” (1 Chron 12:32).

Exegetically, the pmils pull the teeth out of Revelation, hide the alluring whore behind a curtain of bad doctrine, and relegate her beasts (the devil’s actually) to ancient history instead of present peril.

The amils pull no punches, delineating the dangers in the wings (in some places already on stage), and show the saints how to cultivate that intimate walk with the risen King so they may partake of His strength, as the Scripture says,

*Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; giving thanks unto the Father...* (Col 1:11, 12)​
Cam, you deny there is a 3rd desecration. And you posit a “contemporary son of perdition” – contemporaneous with the Thessalonian church Paul is writing to. Am I right in assuming you’re referring to a Caesar? To Nero? Can you make all the things attributed to the “man of sin [or lawlessness]” in 2 Thess 2:4-10 stick to your candidate?

Please don’t ask me to accept your “internal time qualifier” – Matt 24:34 – as I disqualify the exegesis you offer as being unsound. You say 24:27 doesn’t point to the second coming – “as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be” – discounting, perhaps, the imagery as being an actual visual image of the Lord’s return perceived by all, and suggesting instead it is just figurative of a well-known event. Do you also deny verses 29-31 as showing the eschaton? For if you don’t deny them, they would disqualify 24:34 for your “internal time qualifier” as “till all these things be fulfilled” would include the commencement of the eschaton. And if you do deny 29-31 as showing *the* end (the eschaton), you lose much credibility with many, for the verses are clear enough:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​
I suppose one could attempt to fit these verses into the interpretation that what is pictured is but momentous political events using figurative language and images; however, verse 31 precludes that by giving a clear vision of the end of the world, using the same imagery Jesus uses in Matt 13:37-43, where in the eschaton – “the end of the world” – the elect are separated from the wicked by the angels; a parallel passage is 1 Thess 4:16, 17, as is 1 Cor 15:52.

I am saddened that there is such disparity of understanding in the church; though I am glad, Cam, that we can amicably discuss these things as fellow saints and friends, in the presence of our Savior.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Jul 18, 2010)

To return to the OP for a moment. Bryan, as I said above, I agree with Cam that what befell Jerusalem in AD 70 and after was vengeance upon a murderous and apostate people and not fatherly chastening. Yes, when the Jews who were scattered among the nations – as you spoke of in your paraphrase of Deut 30 – returned to the Lord their God, He would then have compassion on them and turn their captivity. This has been the case with me and some of my family. My grandfather, a Jew in Vienna, turned to Christ, as did his daughter my mother; and I, after a pagan-like early life in America, at the age of 26 also turned to the Lord with all my heart and soul. But many of my family have perished in the continuing apostasy of the Jewish people, having been led by blind rabbis into the ditch of Gehenna. I pray to win those left of my family to their Messiah.

What the status of the State of Israel is I’m not sure. They are _not_ the Israel of God, the recipients of the promises, and woe is upon them, having built their towns with blood, and established their cities by iniquity (Habakkuk 2:12). Yet their existence as a state could only be by the allowance of the Almighty; what His designs are I cannot discern; it could be a threshing floor of judgment, with a remnant to arise out of the furnace of affliction. There are many messianic Jews (and messianic Arabs / Palestinians) laboring in their midst. I also seek to speak to them via my writings.

Fatherly chastening is given only to the elect who stray, or have unseen sin, or need to grow in grace, not to hardened apostates. Why the Lord called me – a most unlikely candidate – I have no clue; maybe an ancient believing relative (my grandfather, or before him?) prayed for his progeny, or the Lord fulfilled His covenant promise given in Ex 20:6 (cf Deut 7:9). At any rate, the people of God today, those gathered around Jesus, are – by virtue of being united to the King of Israel – these _are_ Israel, comprised of Jew and Gentile, one holy nation, world without end.

Upon these fatherly chastening is shown. In these days of the 21st century, in the realignment of nations and types, the Babylonian empire of antichristian worldly temptation – the allure of her pleasures and riches – has enmeshed many even of the elect, and has made the command to spiritually come out of her global embrace difficult. Upon these the Lord will bring chastening to return to Him with the whole heart.

You know somewhat my views on this from the other thread. Babylon is not merely an ancient city and empire (empires plural, actually), but has resurfaced as a mighty power in our own day. The saints too often sleep in her embrace, deceived by the sense of well-being she gives. Her wares will turn bitter and her wealth will depart from her, and this will wake many up from the dreams of her wine. The Lord will enable His people to endure to the end in faith and holiness.

I do wonder about the beast – the antichristian persecuting governments – and how they will be aligned in the days to come. The beauty of the amil position is that we are not stuck in the past – or in the future – and have the interpretive tools to understand, if but dimly for the moment, the times.


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