# "Conversion" to Reformed?



## steadfast7 (Jul 14, 2011)

Does one need special grace to move from an Arminian to a Reformed worldview? or, is it merely an intellectual jump that any Christian can make if they simply put in the effort?


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## Scott1 (Jul 14, 2011)

No, just biblical understanding.

The Holy Spirit illuminates our understanding as we read, study, hear the Word. God appoints teachers, elders, ministers, etc. to carefully handle and teach it.

It is incredibly powerful when one gets the picture that salvation is not man-centered (Arminianism), but rather is God-centered (Calvinism). Freeing when one realizes that man is totally, completely, 100% dependent on God for salvation.

The more one knows, the more one is accountable for it.

That's why if someone is in an Arminian influenced communion, they find way to a communion that substantially holds the biblical doctrine. It is not acceptable to confess what is unbiblical.


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## steadfast7 (Jul 14, 2011)

so would you view it as a matter of hermeneutics when learned and godly men simply do not see Scripture the same way as Calvinists?

---------- Post added at 10:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 PM ----------

Amen to your post, btw, Scott..


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## CharlieJ (Jul 14, 2011)

Theology is always a moral matter, not a merely intellectual one. I don't know that I would use the term "special grace," though. I guess it depends on what is meant. The illumination of the Holy Spirit is grace.


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## Scott1 (Jul 14, 2011)

Not really hermeneutics.

The whole of God's Word must be approached in faith that it is, what it is- the revealed will of God.

Implicitly, that means it is not inconsistent, duplicitous but rather is internally consistent, and not a matter of private interpretation. 

That leads to Scripture interpreting Scripture, not by the imagined constructs of men (e.g. dispensationalism, Arminianism).


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## steadfast7 (Jul 14, 2011)

CharlieJ said:


> Theology is always a moral matter, not a merely intellectual one. I don't know that I would use the term "special grace," though. I guess it depends on what is meant. The illumination of the Holy Spirit is grace.


 by "special" I mean in distinction to common sense and reason, but rather a sovereign working of the Spirit. If illumination falls in this category (I'm not sure), then it would seem that a sovereign grace is needed for someone to have right (Reformed) understanding.

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Scott1 said:


> Not really hermeneutics.
> 
> The whole of God's Word must be approached in faith that it is, what it is- the revealed will of God.
> 
> ...


 It's just that the Arminians (the learned ones) would say that they are following these principles of interpretation. If they are wrong and don't see it, then they are blind and require the help of spiritual illumination, it seems.


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## Andres (Jul 14, 2011)

Anything good that we are, we are by the grace of God. I would say this includes being reformed or holding to any sound doctrine. For example, I would never think or say, "Man, I'm so glad I am intellectually superior to those Arminians so that I could become reformed" or "Whew, it's a good thing I have such a proper hermeneutic and solid understanding of the scriptures". No, instead we cry out to God, "thank you God for revealing these truths to me!"

Now if you're asking how we might bring an Arminian brother into the proper (reformed) understanding of scripture, then yes, I think hermeneutics is the place to start. But still, it's only going to be by the grace of God that their eyes are opened, although as others have said, I don't know that I'd label it a "special" grace.


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## Skyler (Jul 14, 2011)

I don't think you can distinguish reason from the work of the Holy Spirit. Rationally, I would argue that Calvinism is the only consistent interpretation of Scripture, yet many brilliant and otherwise reasonable men are irrational on this point. There are other examples as well. Sin inhibits our reason and common sense; in that sense, every correct conclusion that we come to is only by the grace of God.

---------- Post added at 11:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:06 AM ----------

Sorry. I don't think you can "separate" reason, not "distinguish".


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## jwithnell (Jul 14, 2011)

A Christian is a Christian because God has given him a new heart that shows a change in life and an affirmation of what is expressed in the creeds, even though all points may not be fully understood. The non-reformed believer and reformed believers are absolute equals in this regard.

I think many people experience a real energizing of their faith and a newer closeness to God when they come to understand the reformed worldview. By rightly thinking about God, we get to know and love Him all the more. By seeing His strength and our weakness, we become more aware of our total dependence upon Him and His lavish grace to us.

All is by grace: our conversion, our growth in Godliness, and a clearer understanding of the scripture; all is to His glory.


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## Scott1 (Jul 14, 2011)

> Quote Originally Posted by Scott1 View Post
> Not really hermeneutics.
> 
> The whole of God's Word must be approached in faith that it is, what it is- the revealed will of God.
> ...



What you'll find is that the "learned" ones have trouble with Scripture interpreting Scripture, because Arminianism depends on taking individual Scriptures out of the context of Scripture. This is usually done with respect to their immediate context and always done with respect to the whole of Scripture. 

I can say this,

With Scripture interpreting Scripture, there is no way a man centered view of salvation can stand.

This is what cleared it up for me, it was a process.

The same God who was patient with me, I have faith will be patient with others.

That's why God has provided reading, studying, hearing the Word as an "ordinary means of grace," a basic part of the life of the believer.

With the Spirit's illuminating, a believer will get to understand deeper and deeper truths, including something of the doctrines of grace.

I have faith that will happen because God is not a respecter of persons.

If we don't have that faith, there is no way to really answer the original post.


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## Contra_Mundum (Jul 14, 2011)

1Cor.4:7 "For who sees anything different in you? *What do you have that you did not receive?* If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?"

Folks in Corinth were boasting about their knowledge, who their preferred apostle was, all sorts of things. Paul cuts it all off, rebuking especially the "wisest" of them for taking pride in their achievements. The least little bit of insight (to say nothing of greater perceptions) into the knowledge of God is inaccessible outside of revelation. The only proper stance for those who would understand more is the same humble posture of a recipient.

What do you have that you did not receive? Plainly, nothing.


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## Joseph Scibbe (Jul 14, 2011)

I don't think it is nearly an intellectual ascent but I would hesitate to say that Reformed theology is a step in sanctification as if being Reformed made me a better Christian than nonreformed folk. They already think we think that, lets not give them any ammo to prove it.


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## raekwon (Jul 14, 2011)

Joseph Scibbe said:


> I don't think it is nearly an intellectual ascent but I would hesitate to say that Reformed theology is a step in sanctification as if being Reformed made me a better Christian than nonreformed folk. They already think we think that, lets not give them any ammo to prove it.



I would say that a continual growth in the knowledge and understanding of God's Word is one of those "other saving graces" that we receive in sanctification. Now, that's not to say that coming to a Reformed understanding of things is the only way our knowledge and understanding of God's Word is sanctified, and it's not to say that other traditions don't have a greater understanding of the Word in some areas, but... I think "sanctification" does work here.


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## steadfast7 (Jul 14, 2011)

so what I'm gathering from most of you is that a special work of the Spirit is required, not only to regenerate a heart dead in sins, but to cause growth in doctrine and practice, which fall within the category of sanctification. Therefore, those who persist in Arminianism are faltering in at least one area of Spirit-graced sanctification.

@Skyler, regarding whether reason and the work of the Spirit is distinguishable ... if it's not distinguish then should we attribute science, philosophy, or calculus as a direct product of the Holy Spirit?


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## Skyler (Jul 14, 2011)

That would naturally depend upon the science or philosophy in question.

All truth stems from God; by nature, we twist the truth, "[coming] from the womb speaking lies." I tend to think that any perception of truth that we have is a result of the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit, preventing us from being as bad as we could be.

In this respect it's similar (if not identical) to the Holy Spirit's restraining influence in the area of moral issues.

In fact I question whether right reason is not a moral issue. But I digress.


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## steadfast7 (Jul 14, 2011)

Skyler said:


> In fact I question whether right reason is not a moral issue. But I digress.


 I don't think it's a digression at all  it makes sense, considering that Paul links reprobation with suppression of truth and darkened mind in Rom 1. Interesting question: is wrong theology essentially _sinful_?


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## raekwon (Jul 14, 2011)

steadfast7 said:


> so what I'm gathering from most of you is that a special work of the Spirit is required, not only to regenerate a heart dead in sins, but to cause growth in doctrine and practice, which fall within the category of sanctification. Therefore, those who persist in Arminianism are faltering in at least one area of Spirit-graced sanctification.



I'd be hesitant to use the word "faltering" there. How can one "falter" in not being given something that is essentially a gift?


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## Skyler (Jul 14, 2011)

raekwon said:


> steadfast7 said:
> 
> 
> > so what I'm gathering from most of you is that a special work of the Spirit is required, not only to regenerate a heart dead in sins, but to cause growth in doctrine and practice, which fall within the category of sanctification. Therefore, those who persist in Arminianism are faltering in at least one area of Spirit-graced sanctification.
> ...



Since we are obligated to meet God's standard of perfection and fail to do so, and since the fault is our own and not God's, I think "faltering" is an appropriate term.


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## Scott1 (Jul 14, 2011)

steadfast7 said:


> so what I'm gathering from most of you is that a special work of the Spirit is required, not only to regenerate a heart dead in sins, but to cause growth in doctrine and practice, which fall within the category of sanctification. Therefore, those who persist in Arminianism are faltering in at least one area of Spirit-graced sanctification.
> 
> @Skyler, regarding whether reason and the work of the Spirit is distinguishable ... if it's not distinguish then should we attribute science, philosophy, or calculus as a direct product of the Holy Spirit?



Not sure what is meant by "special work of the Spirit."

God alone initiates redemption, through a process that begins with election (predestination). In a sense that is "special" but something He alone does for ALL the elect.

Redemption is a process that begins with election, and includes an inner call (by the Spirit) at the pre-determined time, regeneration, justification, adoption, sanctification, and glorification (which occurs with our resurrected body when Christ returns as judge).

Growing in God's Word is part of the process of sanctification. That means coming to understand deeper truths in His Word, like the 'doctrines of grace.'

One of the best summaries that contrasts and defines both regeneration (which God alone does) and sanctification (which is where we come to understand things like the 'doctrines of grace') is by Mr. Packer:



> _Concise Theology_
> J.I. Packer
> p. 170
> (scripture references omitted for brevity)
> ...


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## earl40 (Jul 14, 2011)

What i find interesting is that all that passes is God's will which includes all Christians who are Arminian and all Christians who are reformed.Those who are Reformed will lay any crown at the feet of God knowing it was because of grace they were so. The Arminian In my most humble opinion will be grateful they were shown mercy while still holding on to "the dignity of the flesh" while they were alive here on earth. I do believe both groups received the same grace but one resisted and thus shall receive one less crown or reward at the judgment seat of Christ.


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## steadfast7 (Jul 15, 2011)

Scott1 said:


> Not sure what is meant by "special work of the Spirit."


 If we have nothing which we have not received, and all things come from the Father of lights, then correct understanding of Scripture would also come from God through the Spirit.



> God alone initiates redemption, through a process that begins with election (predestination). In a sense that is "special" but something He alone does for ALL the elect.
> 
> Redemption is a process that begins with election, and includes an inner call (by the Spirit) at the pre-determined time, regeneration, justification, adoption, sanctification, and glorification (which occurs with our resurrected body when Christ returns as judge).


 Yes, this is done graciously for all Christians alike.



> Growing in God's Word is part of the process of sanctification. That means coming to understand deeper truths in His Word, like the 'doctrines of grace.'


 Thus, if Arminianism is incorrect doctrine, then God is not dispensing this illumination by His Holy Spirit. 
So, either: 
1) these matters have been left to pure reason to figure out, with some understanding it and some not
2) the Arminians have not been graced with ability to apprehend correct doctrine
3) the Reformed have been specially graced with the ability to apprehend correct doctrine
4) Arminians have resisted the illumination by the Spirit.


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## MarieP (Jul 15, 2011)

CharlieJ said:


> Theology is always a moral matter, not a merely intellectual one. I don't know that I would use the term "special grace," though. I guess it depends on what is meant. The illumination of the Holy Spirit is grace.



 If we remembered this, the world be a better place...


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## Scott1 (Jul 15, 2011)

steadfast7 said:


> Scott1 said:
> 
> 
> > Not sure what is meant by "special work of the Spirit."
> ...



Your logic is flawed because it is based on a premise that does not take into account the cooperative nature of sanctification, and underestimates the remnant of the fall in the creatures, and the faith that God will come to the aid of His people, who are genuinely seeking Him. 


> Hebrews 11:6
> But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.



This leads you to present an incomplete set of logical choices.


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## Skyler (Jul 15, 2011)

steadfast7 said:


> Thus, if Arminianism is incorrect doctrine, then God is not dispensing this illumination by His Holy Spirit.
> So, either:
> 1) these matters have been left to pure reason to figure out, with some understanding it and some not
> 2) the Arminians have not been graced with ability to apprehend correct doctrine
> ...



It's worth pointing out that we, the Reformed, do not necessarily have a monopoly on correct doctrine. The Spirit illuminates different areas to different people. We have been graced with the understanding of correct doctrine in a particular area; they may have the same grace in a different area that we do not. Be very, very careful about assuming some kind of superiority, either inherent or gifted, over another group of Christians.


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## steadfast7 (Jul 15, 2011)

Good points. I hear many Reformed label Arminianism as heresy, incorrect, and abominable. Of course, most of us do think that we (Reformed) are right and that the Church would be far better off if they saw things our way. It's good to see that there are those who think that we might be very wrong on certain areas, but does anyone dare to be specific on the things where we might be wrong?


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## Peairtach (Jul 15, 2011)

Arminianism is intellectual sin, as J.I.Packer says in his intro to Owen's "Death of Death in the Death of Christ" (Banner of Truth edition).



> Good points. I hear many Reformed label Arminianism as heresy, incorrect, and abominable. Of course, most of us do think that we (Reformed) are right and that the Church would be far better off if they saw things our way. It's good to see that there are those who think that we might be very wrong on certain areas, but does anyone dare to be specific on the things where we might be wrong?



You'd be better starting another thread. 

We can be wrong - most obviously - by, ironically, being proud of being Calvinist. It's of God's grace that we see certain things more clearly. Therefore we shouldn't be proud.

Of course it can be exasperating that other Christians hold out on something so plain in Scripture, but which they reject because of a deep(er) human pride of their own than any Calvinist pride, which might mean that some Calvinists in turn look down on such people.


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## Scott1 (Jul 15, 2011)

steadfast7 said:


> Good points. I hear many Reformed label Arminianism as heresy, incorrect, and abominable. Of course, most of us do think that we (Reformed) are right and that the Church would be far better off if they saw things our way. It's good to see that there are those who think that we might be very wrong on certain areas, but does anyone dare to be specific on the things where we might be wrong?



On a confessional board, and in a confessional church, we confess that the Confessions (e.g. London Baptist, Westminster) are faithful summaries of the doctrine of Scripture on those points to which they speak.

It's not a matter of trying to assess where "we" (individually) might be wrong on Arminianism. "Broad evangelicalism" approaches biblical truth as the individual's assessment of theology at a given point in time. Hence, there is no clear basis for unity, since that must be based on doctrinal agreement.

Reformed theology is confessional.

It holds that the unity of the church must be grounded in doctrinal agreement. That such agreement is necessary for the peace, purity and unity of the church.

Arminian influence means a man-centered view of salvation- it reflects in theology that imagines itself to be anywhere from one to five points "Calvinist" and the rest that of the remonstrants.

When one studies the "five points" (of Calvinism) thoroughly, one finds that each point is necessarily biblically and logically dependent on the others. That understanding doesn't always come overnight, but, by faith, it will come.

What we call "Arminianism" comes in various degrees. Many who hold it do not know and have not yet heard that it is even "Arminianism," because they have not been taught. It often boils down to the serious doctrinal error of the creature imagining that he may initiate his own salvation- and from his sin nature does so. Yet the Bible teaches he has a sin nature and yet God requires perfect holiness. (cf Romans 3:23).

Those who systematically repudiate God's sovereignty, and and do so knowing the alternative, do something worse. 

Those who would presume to teach God's people are held to a higher standard.


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## InSlaveryToChrist (Jul 15, 2011)

Just because the unregenerate (man-centered) Christian confesses to be Reformed (God-centered) does not mean he truly is. It is highly probable that it is simply a matter of pride why some Christians become or remain Calvinists.


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## dudley (Jul 15, 2011)

Scott1 said:


> No, just biblical understanding.
> 
> The Holy Spirit illuminates our understanding as we read, study, hear the Word. God appoints teachers, elders, ministers, etc. to carefully handle and teach it.
> 
> ...


 
As Scott said "The Holy Spirit illuminates our understanding as we read, study, hear the Word. God appoints teachers, elders, ministers, etc. to carefully handle and teach it.

Conversion from any other tradition to the Reformed faith is not man centered it is God centered. I can witness that it was God that inspired my move from the Roman catholic church to Protestantism and finally the Reformed faith , I am a Presbyterian because Calvinism is God centered.

It is as Scott said :“incredibly powerful when one gets the picture that salvation is not man-centered (Arminianism), but rather is God-centered (Calvinism)” It is also very Freeing when one realizes that man is totally, completely, 100% dependent on God for salvation.

I studied all the Protestant traditions and denominations and I believe Calvinism is totally God centered. Roman Catholicism was not even near God centered, The other Protestant denominations had some degree of God Centeredness but I found Calvinism totally 100% God centered. It is why I became a Presbyterian.


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## steadfast7 (Jul 15, 2011)

I think Dudley's conversion is certainly a good example of coming out darkness into light through the Spirit's regenerating work. But for a sincere Arminian, we are assuming (judgment of charity) that he is in Christ but needs further instruction. If we say that the Holy Spirit's work is necessary for him to see the truth of the Reformed faith, then it is not simply a matter of doing exegesis with him and demonstrating the truth intellectually, but praying for God to open his eyes, just as we would in evangelism. At the same time, they may perceive areas in our faith that are weak, and for which we need prayer to see our folly.

If all of this is true, and intellectual matters are inextricably moral issues which require the Spirit's sovereign activity, then it multiplies and complicates (in my mind) God's election, because not only does God need to choose those he wants to save, but those he wants to reveal certain truths (and there are many truths to be revealed). It seems simpler to say that the truths are graspable if one's cognitive faculties are functioning properly, but I fear that is beginning to sound Arminian.


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## Scott1 (Jul 16, 2011)

steadfast7 said:


> I think Dudley's conversion is certainly a good example of coming out darkness into light through the Spirit's regenerating work. But for a sincere Arminian, we are assuming (judgment of charity) that he is in Christ but needs further instruction.
> We might say he needs more of God's Word rightly taught. Developing that discipline is part of sanctification.
> 
> 
> ...



Here's an on-line study to go through this:
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/what_is_reformed_theology/total-depravity-part-1/

(start at Dr. Sproul lesson 7 and go through lesson 12 on the "five points).


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## KevinInReno (Jul 19, 2011)

As touched on by many, I see it as a combination of the Lord blessing a reformed believer abundantly and sanctification at work. But nothing which warrants actual conversion. 

I'm reminded of: _38“Teacher,” said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”

39“Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40for whoever is not against us is for us. 41I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward._

Just because other churches don't have as full of an understanding - doesn't mean they members outside the body and need to be converted from them.


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## Dennis1963 (Aug 9, 2011)

steadfast7 said:


> Does one need special grace to move from an Arminian to a Reformed worldview? or, is it merely an intellectual jump that any Christian can make if they simply put in the effort?


I believe if people hear a good convincing argument they may come over to the Reformed faith, however, in this case, that's why some leave and can say they once were a Calvinist, etc...etc...

But the real thing? I believe God is the only true cause. Jesus writes these truths to our hearts. So I believe it is by special grace. It's only then that we don't choke on the meat. We may find it a bit hard to swallow at first, but we know in the inner man it is truth.



---------- Post added at 11:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:40 PM ----------




steadfast7 said:


> so would you view it as a matter of hermeneutics when learned and godly men simply do not see Scripture the same way as Calvinists?


I've often thought about this. 
The only reason anyone see and believes those doctrines of grace is by God grace. He owes us nothing, and all is done according to His timing and will. 

I think along these lines, that is exactly where the person is meant to be in their understanding. In the mystery of divine providence there is a purpose, all things are working together perfectly according to plan. One day, I believe, the matter of hermeneutics wont matter, we will all know. 

Even us by God's grace who understand things as Calvinists will be humbled by our weaknesses.

---------- Post added at 11:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:50 PM ----------




Andres said:


> Anything good that we are, we are by the grace of God. I would say this includes being reformed or holding to any sound doctrine. For example, I would never think or say, "Man, I'm so glad I am intellectually superior to those Arminians so that I could become reformed" or "Whew, it's a good thing I have such a proper hermeneutic and solid understanding of the scriptures". No, instead we cry out to God, "thank you God for revealing these truths to me!"
> 
> Now if you're asking how we might bring an Arminian brother into the proper (reformed) understanding of scripture, then yes, I think hermeneutics is the place to start. But still, it's only going to be by the grace of God that their eyes are opened, although as others have said, I don't know that I'd label it a "special" grace.


And just imagine if we didn't see through a glass dimly.


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## JoannaV (Aug 10, 2011)

When we witness to a non-believer, we do not know if it will find good soil. When we witness to a believer, we know that they have the Spirit who testifies to the truth of what we say.


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## Scott1 (Aug 10, 2011)

While it is in one sense "special" to begin to understand profound truths, such as the doctrines of grace, it is not really right to say a "special" work of the Holy Spirit.

The Spirit, as our Lord said, would lead us into all truth.

This is true broadly, and thank God for it.


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## Dennis1963 (Aug 10, 2011)

JoannaV said:


> When we witness to a non-believer, we do not know if it will find good soil. When we witness to a believer, we know that they have the Spirit who testifies to the truth of what we say.


But wouldn't that mean Arminians are not believers?


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## JoannaV (Aug 11, 2011)

Dennis1963 said:


> JoannaV said:
> 
> 
> > When we witness to a non-believer, we do not know if it will find good soil. When we witness to a believer, we know that they have the Spirit who testifies to the truth of what we say.
> ...



No.


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## Dennis1963 (Aug 11, 2011)

JoannaV said:


> Dennis1963 said:
> 
> 
> > JoannaV said:
> ...


Would you say then, that it is a gradual process, in God's timing? I can agree with this, since I believe there are many Arminians who are believers.


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## Scott1 (Aug 11, 2011)

Let me also add how powerful it is to come to understand covenant theology. The doctrines of grace (five points) came first for me, and seemingly for many. I can say also how powerful the truths of covenant are becoming- they are beautiful and elevate family, covenant community, and apportion both responsibility and build faith.

These understanding comes through the ordinary means of grace, including those chosen to carefully teach God's Word.


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## JoannaV (Aug 11, 2011)

Dennis1963 said:


> JoannaV said:
> 
> 
> > Dennis1963 said:
> ...



Yes.
I suppose my original comment was in reference to how we feel when we witness to others. We always know that it is God who works and His Will will always be done. When talking with an unbeliever we do not know if they are one of the elect or not, whereas when talking to a believer we do know that the Holy Spirit is working in them. So I guess that's special grace vs ordinary :-/


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