# Another 'Catholic' Question - Mary as Co-Redemptrix, how does that work?



## kvanlaan (May 31, 2010)

Excuse me for being dense, but what are the mechanics of that belief? If someone could explain it for me in 50 monosyllabic words or less, I would be greatly impressed.


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## Mushroom (Jun 1, 2010)

Ro-man Cat-o-lic her-e-sy is about as monosyllabic as I can do it. The false doctrines of her immaculate conception and perpetual virginity do our sister Mary a great enough disservice, co-redemptrix status is probably some necessary extrapolation from those to further insult her and to cloud the minds of those who would believe the lie.


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## kvanlaan (Jun 1, 2010)

Thanks, Brad! I just fail to understand how their theology makes her a co-redemptrix _with_ Christ. That she's extra-super-special I can understand, especially based on some of what you listed above. How she figures into a salvation scenario, I just don't get.


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## P.F. (Jun 1, 2010)

Here is my try to show their thoughts in the form you asked: "She has pain, like Christ. At the cross - she sees him die. Sword goes in her heart. She earns rights from God this way. Now she prays for us. With Christ, not just her - but she too is our help. Her pain is our gain."

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So eschewing the monosyllabic form, the better answer is that they see her as being involved in every aspect of the redemption from her imagined "yes" (she doesn't say "yes" to the angel) to her suffering with Christ on the cross, they claim that she participated in the Redemption. This is also linked with her alleged mediatorial role by which she pleads her merits, and her imagined parental privilege to Christ on behalf of sinners. The refuse to take Christ completely out of the picture, but they blaspheme Christ by adding another redeemer.


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## MLCOPE2 (Jun 1, 2010)

I've found that the best approach when trying to understand Roman Catholicism is that of Melvin Udall (Jack Nicholson's character in "As Good as it Gets"). When asked how he writes about women so well he replies, "I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability". Just apply this same formula to the RCC.


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## Iconoclast (Jun 1, 2010)

Mary - Coredemptrix Explained


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## JennyG (Jun 1, 2010)

Is this official teaching now? I had the impression they rather hung back (maybe in the interests of ecumenism) from plugging it in so many words, though it's everywhere implied. The official line about Mary is always that she receives only something called _dulia_, or maybe at a pinch _hyperdulia_, which is quite different from _latria_, the worship of God. At the same time books like Liguori's _Glories of Mary_ are still enthusiastically endorsed by the church! there's a bit of double-think going on.

I found this on Reformation Theology:

_Can you picture it? A man is caught bowing down before a Baal in Moses' day in his tent. He is brought before Moses, and when asked for a reason for his idolatry, the man replies,.... "Oh, I wasn't worshipping the idol by bowing down and lighting candles before it, I was giving it dulia instead"_


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## Galatians220 (Jun 1, 2010)

Here's an article from EWTN that explains the actions of a number of current cardinals who are asking the pope to declare Mary as co-redemptrix: Cardinals Hoping for a 5th Marian Dogma

In Catholic school, I was taught that because Jesus said to the apostle John, while He was on the cross, "Son, behold your mother" (John 19:27), He therefore designated Mary as the "mother of all Christians," a "representative of those seeking salvation." _Notes on the verse,_ New American (Roman Catholic) Bible. _Cf._ Answer to Anti-Catholic James G. McCarthy on Co-Redemptrix.

It's one, pernicious "doctrine."

Margaret


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## jandrusk (Jun 1, 2010)

It sounds like you are looking for a rational process as to how this works out, when the doctrine is rooted in mysticism. Although this article may not directly answer your question, it might give you a hint of where they are goind with it. Mary the subject of preaching and worship | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry


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## SueS (Jun 1, 2010)

Franciscan University in Steubenville, Ohio is a center of the push to make Mary co-redemptrix. About a decade ago we received several copies of the newsletter of the local Catholic homeschool group which said such things as that Mary trumps both Jesus and God the Father in authority - both must bow to her will - also, that salvation is through her efforts with her Son. It was unbelievably blasphemous and the memory still is appalling. Both Franciscan University and this particular hs group are throwbacks to a very conservative CATHOLIC past which is shown in a rather strange cultic culture.


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## JennyG (Jun 2, 2010)

I've also read somewhere or other the idea that Mary is the ultimate authority, on the grounds that she is the *Mother of God*, whom not even the Lord himself can refuse to obey. So don't waste your time praying to God - go direct to the one who has the *real* power!
It just shows what a world of untruth lurks in that (apparently, at first sight) fairly harmless and factual title the church of Rome insists on attaching to her


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## dudley (Jun 13, 2010)

*Nowhere in the Scriptures is Mary exalted this way*

Although for hundreds of years the Roman Catholic Church has given honor and adoration to Mary that the Scriptures do not, during the past fifty years, one of the most important trends in the Catholic Church has been an even greater emphasis upon the place of Mary. 

It is one of the many reasons I left the Roman catholic church and became a Protestant.

By the titles of Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate, the Roman Catholic Church means that salvation for everyone would be obtained through Mary, and not directly from Jesus Christ. While this is in fact already taught by the Catholic Church, and has been for many years, it is not yet formally defined as binding dogma, though some Catholics feel it has already achieved that status. Here are examples of this teaching, the first two are papal encyclicals:
5. If in all this series of Mysteries, Venerable Brethren, are developed the counsels of God in regard to us -- "counsels of wisdom and of tenderness" (St. Bernard) -- not less apparent is the greatness of the benefits for which we are debtors to the Virgin Mother. No man can meditate upon these without feeling a new awakening in his heart of confidence that he will certainly obtain through Mary the fullness of the mercies of God. And to this end vocal prayer chimes well with the Mysteries. First, as is meet and right, comes the Lord's Prayer, addressed to Our Father in Heaven: and having, with the elect petitions dictated by Our Divine Master, called upon the Father, from the throne of His Majesty we turn our prayerful voices to Mary. Thus is confirmed that law of merciful meditation of which We have spoken, and which St. Bernardine of Siena thus expresses: "Every grace granted to man has three degrees in order; for by God it is communicated to Christ, from Christ it passes to the Virgin, and from the Virgin it descends to us."

This is heretical and blasphemous. Mary was a sinner who was saved by grace in the same manner of any sinner who trusts Jesus Christ for salvation. The Bible says absolutely nothing about her beyond this. She is not the Mother of God or Ever Virgin or the Queen of Heaven or Co-Redemptress with Christ. She cannot hear or answer prayer, which is a prerogative of Almighty God alone. The Apostles taught absolutely nothing about "Marian worship." Men do not need Mary to bring them to Christ. The needy sinner comes directly to the Lord Jesus Christ, the sole Mediator between God and men: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time" (1 Tim. 2:5-6). Christ promised, "COME UNTO ME, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matthew 11:28). The Bible nowhere invites men to come to Mary or to trust Mary or to pray to Mary (David Cloud, 5/7/97, FBIS).

The following random quotes from the book Ten Series of Meditations on the Mystery of the Rosary, by John Ferraro, is intended to give an overview of Roman Catholic dogma concerning the Virgin Mary. Ferraro's book was given the Nihil Obstat and the Imprimatur, which is an official statement by the Roman Catholic Church that the book "is free of doctrinal or moral error." Therefore, we can take these quotes as official Roman Catholic doctrine:
(a) She [Mary] is co-Redemptrix of the human race.

(b) The church and the saints greet her thus: "You, O Mary, together with Jesus Christ, redeemed us."

(c) God has ordained that no grace will be granted to us except through Mary. It is a doctrine preached by all the saints that no grace will come to us from heaven without passing through Mary's hands. No one will be saved nor obtain mercy except through You, O' heavenly lady. Remember this well, no one will enter heaven without passing through Mary as one would pass through a door. O' Mary, our salvation is in your hands.

(d) During His passion, Mary suffered in her heart all the pains that Jesus suffered in His body. For this reason, God exalted her so greatly.

(e) Mary is our co-Redemptrix because she gave us Jesus pledge of our salvation. Furthermore, she is co-Redemptrix of the human race, because with Christ she ransomed mankind from the power of Satan.

(f) Jesus redeemed us with the blood of His body, Mary with the agonies of her heart.

(g) We were condemned through the fault of one woman; we are saved through the merits of another woman. Just as Eve was the root of death for everyone, so Mary was the source of life for everyone.

(h) Mary is our co-Redemptrix because she suffered in her heart whatever was lacking in the passion of Christ. Are we obligated to Jesus for His passions? -- so we are indebted to Mary for her participation in His passions. She gave birth to Jesus with joy; she gave birth to us, brothers of Jesus, in anguish and sorrow.

(i) Mary, Queen of the Apostles: She is queen of apostles because she formed them and directed them in their preaching. Mary is Queen of Apostles because by herself she routed all the heresies. Mary is Queen of Apostles because she is mother of grace and channel of mercy. She is Queen of Apostles because in her every hope is life and virtue. She is Queen of Apostles because she is conqueror of the Infernal Dragon. (Emphasis added.)

(j) If we spread devotion to Mary, we will gain heaven -- "Who explains me will have life everlasting."

All of the above are blasphemous and counter the truth of salvation ,that all are saved by faith in Christ alone, one of the 5 sola’s of the Reformation that we as Protestants need to re affirm.

This is absolute blasphemy. Nowhere in the Scriptures is Mary exalted this way. Not one time do we find the Apostles or early Christians praying to her. None of the Apostolic epistles to the churches even mention her. Everything the roman catholic church says about Mary is based on human thinking apart from divine revelation.


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## TimV (Jun 13, 2010)

Mary is the Baptist preacher analog. "If anyone can save the Algerians, it's Pastor Jones". YOU make the decision. YOU decide if you want to become part of the covenant. With the Catholics, Mary helps with your salvation. With the arminian, a charismatic preacher or you yourself are the deciding factor, or Co-Redeemer. In neither case is it left to He who made every atom in the universe.


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## Galatians220 (Jun 13, 2010)

Dudley, for you and me (and many others here, too), there's a little plastic statue of Mary that we can see in our rearview mirrors, if we look hard enough. It's starting to get covered with a thick layer of dust. (Not Mary herself, of course, to whom Reformed Protestant doctrine gives proper due.) Praise the Lord that He has freed us from the blasphemy and heresies of and slavery to Roman Catholicism, when He leaves so many in it. It grieves me to read the death notices of so many around here, including people I knew, whose funeral rite consists of a requiem mass. Through no merit of mine but all of His grace, my own will, Lord willing, consist of a strident proclamation of the real Gospel.

All we can do is live the rest of our lives looking to the Lord Jesus Christ, our Savior and the author and finisher of our faith!

In fond fellowship,

Margaret


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