# Orthodox Priest Beheaded



## Scott (Oct 17, 2006)

Orthodox priest beheaded in iraq


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## BobVigneault (Oct 17, 2006)

Ugh!
Hey, anyone who would like to hear someone who understands Islam very well and speaks without the politically correct filters turned on needs to listen to two recent episodes of The Whitehorse Inn - Christianity Confronts Islam (Parts 1 & 2)

"On this edition of the White Horse Inn, Dr. Michael Horton talks with former Muslim and professor of Sharia Law, Sam Solomon, about the true nature of Islam and the significant threat it presents, not only to the western world in general, but specifically to all weak and sentimental forms of the Christian faith."

http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/The_White_Horse_Inn/archives.asp

[Edited on 10-17-2006 by BobVigneault]


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## ChristopherPaul (Oct 17, 2006)

This is terrible

Pray for those affected and for the Eastern Orthodox church.


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## Kevin (Oct 17, 2006)

We (the west, but esp USA) need to repent of making this possible, by invading Iraq & overthrowing what used to be the most pro-christian country in the reagon.


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## Augusta (Oct 17, 2006)

Psalm 40
1 I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry. 

2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings. 

3 And he hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD. 

4 Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies. 

5 Many, O LORD my God, are thy wonderful works which thou hast done, and thy thoughts which are to us-ward: they cannot be reckoned up in order unto thee: if I would declare and speak of them, they are more than can be numbered. 

6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. 

7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, 

8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart. 

9 I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest. 

10 I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation. 

11 Withhold not thou thy tender mercies from me, O LORD: let thy lovingkindness and thy truth continually preserve me. 

12 For innumerable evils have compassed me about: mine iniquities have taken hold upon me, so that I am not able to look up; they are more than the hairs of mine head: therefore my heart faileth me. 

13 Be pleased, O LORD, to deliver me: O LORD, make haste to help me. 

14 Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil. 

15 Let them be desolate for a reward of their shame that say unto me, Aha, aha. 

16 Let all those that seek thee rejoice and be glad in thee: let such as love thy salvation say continually, The LORD be magnified. 

17 But I am poor and needy; yet the Lord thinketh upon me: thou art my help and my deliverer; make no tarrying, O my God.


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## Blueridge Believer (Oct 17, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Kevin_
> We (the west, but esp USA) need to repent of making this possible, by invading Iraq & overthrowing what used to be the most pro-christian country in the reagon.


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## Archlute (Oct 17, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Kevin_
> We (the west, but esp USA) need to repent of making this possible, by invading Iraq & overthrowing what used to be the most pro-christian country in the reagon.



1. This statement is ridiculous

2. Check your spelling before you post a critique; it will only help your credibility

3. Why don't you do something constructive, like go to seminary, become a chaplain, and get the Gospel out among our troops and others "in country" instead of hopping on the "America needs to repent" bandwagon that I occasionally find around here?

The situations in those nations are too complex for individuals to make a blanket statement like that.

We should pray not only for the Gospel's spread among the nations in general, but also for the spread of the pure Gospel among groups like the EOC/GOC/RCC etc., who do not have a firm understanding of it.

May God's peace be with his family and church.


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## Contra_Mundum (Oct 17, 2006)

Facts (such like available from Middle East Reformed Fellowship)

1) Saddam (no one says he was likeable) suppressed militant Isalm
2) Christians, including the presbyterians in Iraq, obeyed the Word, and prayed for their leaders, that they might be permitted to live and worship freely
3) Saddam enforced freedom of religion, including soldiers and police curbside on Christian days of worship
4) Saddam's govt printed Bibles in Arabic for Christians (showing his "progressive" side to the west so he could get $$)
5) According to missionaries that I know personally in the M.E., gospel mission to the M.E. has been set back tremendously by US invasions
6) Christians of all stripes (real, nominal, etc.) are mass exodus from Iraq
7) Reformed Church in Iraq continues to struggle along, trying to maintain both presence and witness

Let's not just accuse people of spouting ignorant or ridiculous info...


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## Blueridge Believer (Oct 17, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Archlute_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Kevin_
> ...




SPURGEON ON CHRISTIAN WARFARE:

First of all, note that this crusade, this sacred, holy war of which I speak, is not with men, but with Satan and with error. "We wrestle not with flesh and blood." Christian men are not at war with any man that walks the earth. We are at war with infidelity, but the persons of infidels we love and pray for; we are at warfare with any heresy, but we have no enmity against heretics; we are opposed to, and cry war to the knife with everything that opposes God and his truth: but towards every man we would still endeavour to carry out the holy maxim, "Love your enemies, do good to them that hate you." The Christian soldier hath no gun and no sword, for he fighteth not with men. It is with "spiritual wickedness in high places" that he fights, and with other principalities and powers than with those that sit on thrones and hold sceptres in their hands. I have marked, however, that some Christian men – and it is a feeling to which all of us are prone – are very apt to make Christ’s war a war of flesh and blood, instead of a war with wrong and spiritual wickedness. Have you never noticed in religious controversies how men will fall foul of each other, and make personal remarks and abuse each other? What is that but forgetting what Christ’s war is? We are not fighting against men; we are fighting for men rather than against them. We are fighting for God and his truth against error and against sin; but not against men. Woe, woe, to the Christian who forgets this sacred canon of warfare. Touch not the persons of men, but smite their sin with a stout heart and with strong arm. Slay both the little ones and the great; let nothing be spared that is against God and his truth; but we have no war with the persons of poor mistaken men ("The War of Truth," January 11, 1857, Music Hall, Royal Surrey Gardens).

But now let us observe that the warfare which the Christian carries on, may be said for his encouragement, to be a most righteous warfare. In every other conflict in which men have engaged, there have been two opinions, some have said the war was right, and some have said it was wrong; but in regard to the sacred war in which all believers have been engaged, there has been only one opinion among right-minded men. When the ancient priest stirred up the Crusaders to the fight, he made them shout Deus vult – God wills it. And we may far more truly say the same. A war against falsehood, a war against sin, is God’s war; it is a war which commends itself to every Christian man, seeing he is quite certain that he has the seal of God’s approval when he goes to wage war against God’s enemies. Beloved, we have no doubt whatever, when we lift up our voices like a trumpet against sin, that our warfare is justified by the eternal laws of justice. Would to God that every war had so just and true an excuse as the war which God wages with Amalek – with sin in the world! ("The War of Truth," January 11, 1857, Music Hall, Royal Surrey Gardens).


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## Bladestunner316 (Oct 17, 2006)

to Rev. Bruce. 

 for the SOC members there.

[Edited on 10-17-2006 by Bladestunner316]


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## Blueridge Believer (Oct 17, 2006)

Somehow it strikes me odd that a nation that has a good number of sex perverts and sodomites in its leadership, and offers millions of babies every year to thier god moloch, and does everything in its power NOT to recognize the only true God and His Son Jesus Christ should expect His blessing in anything they do. I look for nothing but judgment to come in the near future for this nation of blasphemers and sodomites.
This sordid and murderous affair started by this "christian" president has all the markings of ancient Rome on it. I feel sorry for the Christians who've had to suffer in Iraq and other nations because of the backlash it has caused.

Pro 6:16 These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him: 
Pro 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 
Pro 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 
Pro 6:19 A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Oct 17, 2006)




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## Bladestunner316 (Oct 17, 2006)

Praise the Lord for having HIS mercy pour on us few amidst such darkness!!


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## Archlute (Oct 18, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Blueridge reformer_
> Somehow it strikes me odd that a nation that has a good number of sex perverts and sodomites in its leadership, and offers millions of babies every year to thier god moloch, and does everything in its power NOT to recognize the only true God and His Son Jesus Christ should expect His blessing in anything they do. I look for nothing but judgment to come in the near future for this nation of blasphemers and sodomites.
> This sordid and murderous affair started by this "christian" president has all the markings of ancient Rome on it. I feel sorry for the Christians who've had to suffer in Iraq and other nations because of the backlash it has caused.
> 
> ...



I thought that I left this sort of ranting behind when I left dispensational circles. Why not thank God for the good things that you have been blessed with as a citizen of this country, and pray towards the growth of the Gospel in it? Everytime somebody whines on this board about the wickedness of this country they are neither being thankful for where God in His providence has placed them, nor are they doing anything constructive with the situation. 

Second, for all of the handy retorts that issue from Ephesians 6:12, nobody seems to recognize the broader inferences that can be drawn from the 10th chapter of Daniel, where we see that demonic forces are directly involved in the affairs of nations. While not claiming that the U.S. is exempt from these forces, I would hope that nobody would deny that the constitutions of the opposing armies are largely a Christian West against an Islamic East. Those Islamic forces are under the bondage of a false religion, demonic direction, and the slavery of sin. So part of the physical battle with them is also a spiritual battle. Making a simple division between the physical and the spiritual in a situation such as this is not as clean as some would prefer. Men are never neutral when it comes to the kingdom under which they function, and in as much as Christian soldiers are fighting Islamic terrorists there will be an overlap in this area. That is unless you think that the Lord takes no interest in the well being of His sons and daughters in battle. 

And for all of the ill which this conflict may have brought upon Christians in other countries, nobody on these threads seems willing to recognize that there has been tremendous Christian influence brought into those same areas by Christian soldiers, chaplains, and relief orginizations. If you just take a moment to back off of your puritanboard use for 5 min. and utilize the search button on Google, you will see some of what I am talking about. The providence of God is a mysterious thing, and He is surely using the ills which you all have belabored to point out in order that there will be greater fruit born for the Gospel as those lands come into contact with true Christians and the Word. 

Which brings me to my final thought: there are many Christian men and women in our armed forces who are giving up much more than the average poster here in their daily task of waging these wars. Many do it with dignity, integrity, and a desire to serve with excellence unto their Lord. They are the salt and light unto the world where the Lord has placed them. How do you think they would evaluate their "brothers" on this board if they were to read some of the disparaging remarks that have been made here concerning the task to which they have been set? I am sure that not all of them would agree with everything that they are tasked with, nor with every policy that their government sets forth, but I do not think that they would find the tone here anymore glorifying to our Lord (who charges us with cheerful obedience to our governing authorities) than the sin they may see in our government.

Let us stop being so critical of our nation, and spend a little more time in prayer for it, engaging in Gospel work in it, and in being as good a testimony to this nation as our Christian brothers in arms have been. Just because we love and long for the coming of the kingdom of our Lord does not necessitate that we loath as of worthless value the land into which, and the governing authorities under which, God has placed us. 

I'm beginning to think that the name of this board should be changed from the "puritanboard.com" to the "puritanwhine.com" (no, I did not say "puritan.com!"). Why don't you all prove me wrong, and move from incessant critiquing to a predominance of edifying/constructive speech? I mean this not only about national issues, but also regarding discussions of other denominations, debates (or lack thereof), and various other topics.

[Edited on 10-19-2006 by Archlute]


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## Blueridge Believer (Oct 18, 2006)

Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: 
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear. 
Isa 59:3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness. 
Isa 59:4 None calleth for justice, nor [any] pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity. 
Isa 59:5 They hatch cockatrice' eggs, and weave the spider's web: he that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into a viper. 
Isa 59:6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works [are] works of iniquity, and the act of violence [is] in their hands. 
Isa 59:7 Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts [are] thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction [are] in their paths. 
Isa 59:8 The way of peace they know not; and [there is] no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace. 
Isa 59:9 Therefore is judgment far from us, neither doth justice overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, [but] we walk in darkness. 
Isa 59:10 We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if [we had] no eyes: we stumble at noonday as in the night; [we are] in desolate places as dead [men]. 
Isa 59:11 We roar all like bears, and mourn sore like doves: we look for judgment, but [there is] none; for salvation, [but] it is far off from us. 
Isa 59:12 For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions [are] with us; and [as for] our iniquities, we know them; 
Isa 59:13 In transgressing and lying against the LORD, and departing away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood. 
Isa 59:14 And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter. 
Isa 59:15 Yea, truth faileth; and he [that] departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw [it], and it displeased him that [there was] no judgment.


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## Archlute (Oct 18, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Blueridge reformer_
> Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
> Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear.
> Isa 59:3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.
> ...





Um... 

Maybe you'd like to exegete and articulate that point?

To help you along with some thoughts, this chapter in Isaiah is coming as a rebuke to the divided monarchy of Israel for her sins and self reliance, and would be most applicable to preaching against the sins of a fallen and worldly church, one who has turned her back on God's promises. God is speaking to His covenant people here, not the pagan nations whom he rebuked earlier in the book. So if we are to take any application from this passage, it would be in preaching the law against ourselves for taking on the traits of our nation, and then to preach the consolation of the Gospel promises that Christ has taken our sins and waywardness upon Himself, exhorting us on to purity and confidence in Him out of love for Him and His rich grace!

I don't think that's what you were trying to get at however, so feel free to chime in, although I believe that at this point we've sidetracked the thread.


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## Bladestunner316 (Oct 18, 2006)

I guess there is ALOT of whining in the Bible about wicked nations


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## RamistThomist (Oct 18, 2006)

I have been Neo-conned.


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## Bladestunner316 (Oct 18, 2006)

Is that a show like being 'punked'


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## satz (Oct 18, 2006)

Surely it is possible to speak out against the sins of a government while still giving them the respect that is due to their God-ordained authority. It is true that there is much to critisize about modern western governments, but is also true that the bible says even holy angels do not bring railing accusations against human dignitaries or the devil himself.

Just as a man would have to take a different tone when rebuking his parents for sin than he would his children, christians ought to be careful not about the content, but the manner in which they speak about governments.

I also think it is true that despite their faults, modern western governments are amongst the most christian friendly that have ever existed on this planet. We should be thankful to be living where we are.


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## RamistThomist (Oct 18, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Bladestunner316_
> Is that a show like being 'punked'



Same effect. No, its a book written and edited by a number of people (Pat Buchanan et al) who were fed up by neo-conservatives.


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## RamistThomist (Oct 18, 2006)

> _Originally posted by satz_
> Surely it is possible to speak out against the sins of a government while still giving them the respect that is due to their God-ordained authority. It is true that there is much to critisize about modern western governments, but is also true that the bible says even holy angels do not bring railing accusations against human dignitaries or the devil himself.
> 
> Just as a man would have to take a different tone when rebuking his parents for sin than he would his children, christians ought to be careful not about the content, but the manner in which they speak about governments.
> ...



I would agree. I am the best patriot this country can have. I love America, but I hate Big Government and Big Brother.


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## BJClark (Oct 19, 2006)

I love America as well even though it's not my home, I'm only here for a time, and have served in the Military, and proud to have had the opportunity to VOLUNTEER to do so

You see, in many countries it's not a choice, when you turn a certain age YOU are told you will enlist in the military, no questions asked. It is required that every man and woman serve. I'm thankful it's not mandatory here, aren't you?

But more importantly what are you doing to work against the sins going on in this country? Are you in an elected office or running for one (the actual battlefield your complaining about) in order to work to bring about change? Or are you sitting on the side lines complaining?

Do not berate those who are willing to step up to the plate and serve in both the physical and Spiritual battle field God has called them to. And yes, The Military is a calling, just as someone being called to the Pulpit to preach is. It is the Mission Field God has placed them in, whether they are in Iraq, Afganistan, South Korea, Thailand, Japan or somewhere in the United States that is where God has called them to be at this time in their lives. 

As Christians, your right our battle is not with this world, but there are many LOST people around this world, and if a war going on in another country is God's way of getting His Gospel to some of them...well, then okay.

I'm curious though, what war are we fighting? Is not man required to take a stand for one side or the other even if it means defending it to their death? 

We can not say God does not call us to battle against other people, because the Bible itself teaches us He does when necessary! 

[Edited on 10-19-2006 by BJClark]

[Edited on 10-19-2006 by BJClark]


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## Semper Fidelis (Oct 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by BobVigneault_
> Ugh!
> Hey, anyone who would like to hear someone who understands Islam very well and speaks without the politically correct filters turned on needs to listen to two recent episodes of The Whitehorse Inn - Christianity Confronts Islam (Parts 1 & 2)
> 
> ...


 I mentioned that in brief before. Truly a satanic religion.


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## Bladestunner316 (Oct 19, 2006)

Bobbi,
I'm confused. I dont want this taken the wrong way. But how is joining the military and fighting political wars for ungodly leaders agendas advancing the Kingdom? To me that would be like saying I should become a mormon missionary so that I can go and change mormonism? 

How do define complaining and giving a biblical critique of the US Government or any government for that matter? There may not be alot of pro-US government supporters here. But I also see those who agressively want no critique at all of how the US government handles itself in light of scripture. If the US government was kiling chrsitians would it then be ok to critisize the US government? 

I dont want to argue with you at all just want to know what you think.

Blade


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## Bladestunner316 (Oct 19, 2006)

Also a disclaimer,
(I may question military service for this nation-though I do not questio that there are many godly men who do decide to join the military and serve this nation to which Im thankful for)

Blade


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## Archlute (Oct 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Bladestunner316_
> Also a disclaimer,
> (I may question military service for this nation-though I do not questio that there are many godly men who do decide to join the military and serve this nation to which Im thankful for)
> 
> Blade



I appreciate your clarification, Nathan.


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## Blueridge Believer (Oct 19, 2006)

I spent eight years Adam in the Air Force hopping around the world for this empire. I wish I had those years back but God in his own purpose chose a mission field in which to save this wretched sinner. Forgive me if I don't grab a flag and wave it for the police state with you but I've confessed that I'm a pilgrim here and I have no desire to return to my previous city. America is the city of destruction just as every other nation on this planet.
I am only awaiting my final deliverence. I refuse to get involved in this nations wicked political system. 

Hbr 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 
Hbr 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 
Hbr 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that [country] from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 
Hbr 11:16 But now they desire a better [country], that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

BTW Adam, I wish you the best in your studies at school and I pray God that he would bless you with many good years of ministry.

[Edited on 10-19-2006 by Blueridge reformer]


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## Kevin (Oct 19, 2006)

Draught Horse, and Blueridge.

Adam I have spent 10 years working in the political process. Part of that full-time & the rest 'part-time'. I am a 'veteran' of over 80 political campaigns in over 10 states. Most of that time as a consultant to the GOP but I also worked for the old USTP as executive director for a while back in the early 90's. I could introduce you to dozens of godly men (incl some reformed) that were elected in those years. I have stood on the sidewalk outside abortion mills for hundreds of hours to protest the evils of our day. I was part of a group that sut down adult bookstores & closed an abortion clinic in the early 90's. I worked to defeat anti-home schooling legislation in 2 states and 1 province. I have traveled across the US training hundreds (thousands?) of christians in how to be an effective part of the political process. I sit on the board of a province-wide home school group. I have taught the reformed faith to 100+ young people as a lay youth learder in the PCA & the ARP. I have preached scores of times as a lay 'exhorter' in reformed churches without regular supply.

Trust me when I say I think I have done a few "constructive' things over the years. I also have 4 children (18 mos to 12) and yes I have been to seminary. I am glad that you seem to feel a call to serve as a military chaplin. God bless you. Please do not assume that because someone else has a different call then you that yours is superior or 'the only way to go'.


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## Kevin (Oct 19, 2006)

Sorry for the CV I guess I got carried away.


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## Blueridge Believer (Oct 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Kevin_
> Draught Horse, and Blueridge.
> 
> Adam I have spent 10 years working in the political process. Part of that full-time & the rest 'part-time'. I am a 'veteran' of over 80 political campaigns in over 10 states. Most of that time as a consultant to the GOP but I also worked for the old USTP as executive director for a while back in the early 90's. I could introduce you to dozens of godly men (incl some reformed) that were elected in those years. I have stood on the sidewalk outside abortion mills for hundreds of hours to protest the evils of our day. I was part of a group that sut down adult bookstores & closed an abortion clinic in the early 90's. I worked to defeat anti-home schooling legislation in 2 states and 1 province. I have traveled across the US training hundreds (thousands?) of christians in how to be an effective part of the political process. I sit on the board of a province-wide home school group. I have taught the reformed faith to 100+ young people as a lay youth learder in the PCA & the ARP. I have preached scores of times as a lay 'exhorter' in reformed churches without regular supply.
> ...



God bless you my dear brother. I too was once a republican party activist. Has there ever come a time when you felt your wheels were "spinning in the sand"? I attempt to bind no mans concience here. I only state my own as to what I believe the scripture has taught me. I only wish to live in peace with those around me and proclaim the Gospel of Christ. The Gospel is the only thing that will change anyone or any system. To put any hope in a political party in my view is vain.
When I came out of arminian dispensationalism I embraced the doctrines of grace and along with it amillenialism. It forever killed the disease of nationalism in me. I realized I truly am a pilgrim. I just try to live in light of Rom. 13 when dealing with those who are in power but not get involved in there schemes or scams.


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## Kevin (Oct 19, 2006)

Yes, spinning wheels in the sand is a good way to put it.

I have found, in my expirience, that the higher the office the less 'good' that gets done. A single person just can't have enough influence on a gov, or US sen. Congressman possible, but you better be valuable to them. The typical 'ward-heeler' just doesn't bring enough to the table to really influence outcomes.

State house & senate however are an other kettle of fish. An effective activist can influence votes at that level, often with just a call. The problem is most christians only get involved when they have an 'issue'. That is just to late. You rep has to know you well enough to come off the floor to take your call in order for you to be able to sway him.

I agree with you that your theology plays a big part in IF you even get involved. I am post-mil & more or less a theonomist, so 'nuff said about that.

The 'best' politicians & activists in my expirience are reformed & post-mil or latin mass catholics. They both seem to have the kind of long range view needed to stay the course.

Dispensationalists & a-mils get wound up about single issues but seem to lack the sand to stay in. Worse are those (bapt & charismatics) who 'sell out' i.e. they just become part of the game. 

I can certainly understand how people want to avoide the entire mess, but I believe that is a legitimate and needed field. What burns me more than anything is christians (esp reformed xns who aught to 'know' better) who tie themselves to a party & back every thing it does no matter haw evil just because they are are the 'good guys'. If we are unable to "speak the truth to power" or preach Gods whole word in whatever area we are in then we might as well stay home.


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## Blueridge Believer (Oct 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Kevin_
> Yes, spinning wheels in the sand is a good way to put it.
> 
> I have found, in my expirience, that the higher the office the less 'good' that gets done. A single person just can't have enough influence on a gov, or US sen. Congressman possible, but you better be valuable to them. The typical 'ward-heeler' just doesn't bring enough to the table to really influence outcomes.
> ...



Again, God bless you brother and I hope you get some good done and don't lose your mind in the process. I hope you post-mill guys are right, but I just can't see it in the Gospels myself. Be careful my brother, be careful.


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## BJClark (Oct 19, 2006)

Blade,




> I'm confused. I dont want this taken the wrong way. But how is joining the military and fighting political wars for ungodly leaders agendas advancing the Kingdom?



Yes, the leaders of this nation are sinners and some of them are ungodly, but who raises up those leaders? Does not the Bible teach us it is God that raises up who He wants in office, be they ungodly or Godly, For HIS Purpose? 

Does it matter if we think their agenda is ungodly, if God Himself has raised them up, through the political voting system or through a war? What happens with Christians when there are ungodly men in office? Do they pray more? Or do they just ignore whats going on? Does it build a persons faith or destroy it? I have found that when ungodly men are in office, Christians are on their knees praying more, asking God to show mercy on us as a Nation. 

And as far as working within the political system, it's not the Government that is evil, it is the people who work within the government who have evil hearts, who are in need of a Savior. It is about being salt and light in the darkness to them and sharing Christ. The battlefield in Iraq or anywhere else for that matter is a battlefield for God and the souls of men and women who are there.

There are many Christians who are on those battlefields being placed in the path of others they would never meet any other way, who do not know Christ, and God alone knows what it will take to reach the hearts of those He is calling, so who are we to say this is not the way God chose to bring them into His family or to harden their hearts even more against Him? 

Why feel sorry for the Christians who are suffering the backlash? It is building their faith, where they are able to proclaim the love of God even more. We should be praying God will give them strength to endure the battle, to fight the good fight in the worst of circumstances, when their lives are literally on the line for what THEY say they believe. Could we, who live in America do that, be willing to be on the frontlines if it meant our lives were on the line? Or would we run from the battlefield in order to stay alive in this world, that isn't even our home?

Are we not called to praise God even in our suffering?

Does not our suffering or their suffering bring us Closer to God?



> How do define complaining and giving a biblical critique of the US Government or any government for that matter?



The problem is your not really critizing the government system as a whole, your critizing men who are NEED of a Savior, for sins that only Christ can convict them of to bring about a changed heart.

So to me it's not about if people are pro-government or not, we should be praying for Godly men to rise up and go to them, and Share Christ. To be that salt and light in their lives, men who will take a stand and talk to them one on one. Not sit back and critize their sinfulness, because it is only but by the Grace of God we do not struggle with those same sins, but we do still struggle with sin.



> If the US government was kiling chrsitians would it then be ok to critisize the US government?



it's not the government that would be killing Christians, though the men and women in office may approve of it, it would be lost men and women who work within the government who would be killing Christians. 

So if we have a problem, then maybe we should be on our knees praying God will raise Godly men and women into office to be that salt and light in the lives of others who serve.

Those who will take a stand against sin and not back down, those who when they are shown their or someone elses sin will address it before God and are willing to be held accountable themselves, and in the case of the other person, talk to them confront them, hold them accountable, not worrying about if they are pleasing men or their 'political party', because they understand it is God they fear and not what man can do to them.


2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of his calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:


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## BJClark (Oct 19, 2006)

Kevin,


Praise God for your calling. 

May you continue to be the salt and light in the darkness of your mission field. May God give you the strength to endure the pressures of this world and stand strong in Him and bring others to stand along side you to make that light brighter.


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## Kevin (Oct 19, 2006)

I think I disagree Bobbi. The "people working in govt" are our representatives i.e. our covenantal heads, at least in some sense.
So yes we do have a responsibility. Remember that God punished the PEOPLE when King David sinned by numbering the people.

As for you view that suffering is good so lets thank God that the Iraqi christians get to suffer for His name after all the people bombing them may be good christian people too. I think you might do well by reading on just war theory.


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## CDM (Oct 19, 2006)

_Archlute post is in italics_

_
I thought that I left this sort of ranting behind when I left dispensational circles. Why not thank God for the good things that you have been blessed with as a citizen of this country, and pray towards the growth of the Gospel in it? Everytime somebody whines on this board about the wickedness of this country they are neither being thankful for where God in His providence has placed them, nor are they doing anything constructive with the situation.
_

Well, after this post it appears you haven't left behind (haha-pun) ranting when you left Dispensational circles after all. 

I'm not sure, but you may or may not consider me a whiner after this response. Just in case though let me add:
1) I do thank God for the good things He has blessed me and my family with as a citizen of this country.
2) I pray for the growth of the gospel in it 
3) If I am to call a spade a spade (i.e., America’s sins) this doesn't negate points 1 & 2.

So, I can be thankful, I can pray for my country and I CAN lament the wickedness of this country (what you unfortunately call whining) whether it offends ones military or nationalistic pride or not. Additionally, I consider exposing sin to be constructive.

_
Second, for all of the handy retorts that issue from Ephesians 6:12, nobody seems to recognize the broader inferences that can be drawn from the 10th chapter of Daniel, where we see that demonic forces are directly involved in the affairs of nations. While not claiming that the U.S. is exempt from these forces, I would hope that nobody would deny that the constitutions of the opposing armies are largely a Christian West against an Islamic East. Those Islamic forces are under the bondage of a false religion, demonic direction, and the slavery of sin. So part of the physical battle with them is also a spiritual battle. Making a simple division between the physical and the spiritual in a situation such as this is not as clean as some would prefer. Men are never neutral when it comes to the kingdom under which they function, and in as much as Christian soldiers are fighting Islamic terrorists there will be an overlap in this area. That is unless you think that the Lord takes no interest in the well being of His sons and daughters in battle.
_ 

Good point about Daniel and what should be opposition against a self-evidently demonic religion. I agree, the Lord does take interest in these matters. Now that you mention it I am of the opinion that the Lord never intended for us to send our *daughters* to fight in our wars. I’ll add, for me, it is a derilection of duty on the part of Men, Husbands, and Fathers to do so. A complete shame really.

_
And for all of the ill which this conflict may have brought upon Christians in other countries, nobody on these threads seems willing to recognize that there has been tremendous Christian influence brought into those same areas by Christian soldiers, chaplains, and relief orginizations. If you just take a moment to back off of your puritanboard use for 5 min. and utilize the search button on Google, you will see some of what I am talking about. The providence of God is a mysterious thing, and He is surely using the ills which you all have belabored to point out in order that there will be greater fruit born for the Gospel as those lands come into contact with true Christians and the Word.
_ 

I have most definitely noticed the many benefits that have come from this war, namely the many Christian missionaries that are attempting to infiltrate the region. However, this does not speak to the right or wrong of us being there to begin with. The ends do not justify the means if you will. As a side note, the degree of heat you start to employ here makes me think of the term “rant”. Sure, God can use ills to bring forth fruit – who here has denied this?

_
Which brings me to my final thought: there are many Christian men and women in our armed forces who are giving up much more than the average poster here in their daily task of waging these wars. Many do it with dignity, integrity, and a desire to serve with excellence unto their Lord. They are the salt and light unto the world where the Lord has placed them. How do you think they would evaluate their "brothers" on this board if they were to read some of the disparaging remarks that have been made here concerning the task to which they have been set? I am sure that not all of them would agree with everything that they are tasked with, nor with every policy that their government sets forth, but I do not think that they would find the tone here anymore glorifying to our Lord (who charges us with cheerful obedience to our governing authorities) than the sin they may see in our government.
_

I believe, on average, the American soldier, individually, represents all that is good about this country’s past and somewhat present in regard to self-sacrifice, courage, obedience, and loyalty. It is indeed, an honorable profession. That being said, please, let’s not start glorifying each and every person who serves in our military or who happens to be apart of this country’s recent military campaigns because of the thousands of bonus dollars and scholarships held out to them. I’m sure you’ll agree many if not most are there for their personal gain. Few and far between is the true soldier. For you to attempt to hold up one’s (often times) career choice to shame others that haven’t chosen this path is dishonorable. You said, “Which brings me to my final thought: there are many Christian men and women in our armed forces who are giving up much more than the average poster here in their daily task of waging these wars.” If I decided to “give up” my life in service to save the whales should I expect to use this as leverage against you for your lack of self-sacrifice? Am I now to be thought of as a moral superior to you? You’re assuming that the “average poster” here wants to or even agrees with “waging these wars”! 

_Let us stop being so critical of our nation, and spend a little more time in prayer for it, engaging in Gospel work in it, and in being as good a testimony to this nation as our Christian brothers in arms have been. Just because we love and long for the coming of the kingdom of our Lord does not necessitate that we loath as of worthless value the land into which, and the governing authorities under which, God has placed us.
_ 

Yes, good point, we all should spend more time in prayer for this country. Indeed we should be engaging in Gospel work for it, and right again we should strive to have a good testimony.

_I'm beginning to think that the name of this board should be changed from the "puritanboard.com" to the "puritanwhine.com" (no, I did not say "puritan.com!"). Why don't you all prove me wrong, and move from incessant critiquing to a predominance of edifying/constructive speech? I mean this not only about national issues, but also regarding discussions of other denominations, debates (or lack thereof), and various other topics._

I’d like to know, has the sense of irony completely escaped you? You criticize and make fun of the PB and many here in the midst of your crying foul for them criticizing the country! Sweet irony indeed! Yes, you are right let us engage in “edifying/constructive speech” not like the speech you’ve employed here. I don’t mean to pile on and I’m only speaking for myself, but, with respect, I have proven you wrong brother. My speech has been and is predominantly edifying and constructive. View my 319 other posts if you must.


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## BJClark (Oct 19, 2006)

Kevin,



> I think I disagree Bobbi. The "people working in govt" are our representatives i.e. our covenantal heads, at least in some sense.



Which is why they need our prayers, and why we can't just sit back on our laurels and expect change, we need to be willing to take that stand ourselves to help bring about change.



> Remember that God punished the PEOPLE when King David sinned by numbering the people.



Yes, which is why we as Christians should be praying. 



> As for you view that suffering is good so lets thank God that the Iraqi christians get to suffer for His name after all the people bombing them may be good christian people too. I think you might do well by reading on just war theory.



I have come to see suffering differently, as I have endured much suffering in my life that God has used for good to bring me closer to Him.

1Pe 2:19 For this [is] thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.

Act 5:41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

Phl 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

1Th 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

2Th 1:5 [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Hbr 13:3 Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; [and] them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body.

1Pe 3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy [are ye]: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

1Pe 3:17 For [it is] better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

1Pe 4:16 Yet if [any man suffer] as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

It is not that I see their suffering as "good" but through their suffering I see their faith made stronger, to where I am encouraged in MY own faith, knowing that no matter what happens God is with them, knowing just as God is with them, giving them strength to endure, He is also with me in my own suffering, even though my suffering is not the same, but if it were, He would be there giving me the same strength to endure.

I find comfort and draw strength from their faith, my faith is encouraged, my resolve to serve God is made stronger, and I desire to have that same faith, even if it means that one day, if I am placed in the same situation, having to make a choice to die for Christ that I too would be found faithful.

Now, don't get me wrong, I am well aware the war in Iraq was not started because of this, however, it has in turn become that in Iraq, maybe not for some, but for the muslim insurgents it is ALL about faith, and that is why they won't give up. 

But do we just sit back and allow Islam to win or do we stand and fight against it? 

Just as with our own leaders, do we sit back and do nothing but complain, or do we either share the truth with them personally or pray God will lead other Christians to them to share His truth? 

I don't believe sitting and doing nothing works, so we must do something be it pray or go ourselves. If not us as Christians, then who?

[Edited on 10-19-2006 by BJClark]


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## Kevin (Oct 19, 2006)

Thanks Bobbi, I think I understand your point better now. Still not sure I agree...


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## Bladestunner316 (Oct 19, 2006)

I dont think that just because God ordained evil men to be in power we should just be idle and and except it and move on as though its nothing. I believe that God has ordained all things. 

Bobbi you said,
Does it matter if we think their agenda is ungodly, if God Himself has raised them up, through the political voting system or through a war? What happens with Christians when there are ungodly men in office? Do they pray more? Or do they just ignore whats going on? Does it build a persons faith or destroy it? I have found that when ungodly men are in office, Christians are on their knees praying more, asking God to show mercy on us as a Nation. 


Paul in Romans says this,
Romans 6
Dead to Sin, Alive to God
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Your conclusion goes agaisnt what Paul states here. Are hope should be in Christ returning and getting rid of all sin. Not that we should be content in letting evil governments abound so that we are persecuted in order to increase our faith. 

Bobbie,
Also the government is EVIL and the men who run are EVIL. The government and the men who run deny the Lordship and Kingship of Christ. Where is written in our government that all men must bow there knees to the King Jesus and kiss His hand? It does not. So how then should we as Christians in good conscience enter into a system that denies the Lordship and Kingship of Jesus Christ? 

Thank your for clarifying your points.

In Christ,
Blade


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## Archlute (Oct 21, 2006)

James and Kevin, 

Thanks for sharing your backgrounds after my last post; quite interesting material and personal insights.


Chris, 

I agree with you on several points, especially that of the moral shame, not to mention the tactical downgrade, of having women in our armed forces (or on the police force, or as security guards, etc.). Nor, having actually served, am I blind to some of the corruption that is found within our forces. That being said, the corruption and evils are certainly less than you will find in many foreign forces. 

Yet, to correct a misperception that you seem to hold, I have never asserted that we “glorify each and every person” who serves. On the contrary, a “real soldier” does not seek to be glorified as an individual, I did not, nor did the men with whom I served. 

Pardon my lack of sanctification at this point, however, if I say that I think that you display a pathetic, insular, and self-delusory attitude in regard to our country's servicemen. Your assertion that "many if not most are there for their personal gain" is an unfounded (and ill-founded, from the men I know) view that falsely questions the motives of many of those men. Your idea that many serve "because of the thousands of bonus dollars and scholarships held out to them" is the really "dishonorable" position to take. I have little patience with self-serving, ease-loving critics, such as yourself, when it comes to this issue, and I say that as a Christian who is by no means blind to the sin in our country. The next time that you’re feeling like a hero for gettin' the bad guys on H.A.L.O. why don't you stop and say a prayer for your fellow countrymen who are facing real danger in the real world.

Seeing that you’re training for the ministry, I would hope that you not pass on your poor attitude regarding this country to those under your care. You may run into more recent veterans within your charge that will not show nearly as much restraint in their evaluation of your views as I. God Bless. 

Preemptory notice of apology: I hesitate to post the above, due to constraints of biblical wisdom, but certain fallacious comments really raised my ire, and I felt it necessary in respond with a rebuke.


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## BJClark (Oct 21, 2006)

Bladestunner316




> I dont think that just because God ordained evil men to be in power we should just be idle and and except it and move on as though its nothing. I believe that God has ordained all things.



Please show me where I said we should? 



> I'm curious though, what war are we fighting? Is not man required to take a stand for one side or the other even if it means defending it to their death?





> But do we just sit back and allow Islam to win or do we stand and fight against it?
> 
> Just as with our own leaders, do we sit back and do nothing but complain, or do we either share the truth with them personally or pray God will lead other Christians to them to share His truth?
> 
> I don't believe sitting and doing nothing works, so we must do something be it pray or go ourselves. If not us as Christians, then who?






> Your conclusion goes agaisnt what Paul states here. Are hope should be in Christ returning and getting rid of all sin. Not that we should be content in letting evil governments abound so that we are persecuted in order to increase our faith.



With all due respect, you came to the wrong conclusion of what I said, re-read my quotes above. 

And again, show me where I said that. And with all due respect, even though our hope is in Christ's return doesn't mean we sit around and do nothing, we must continue to do God's work here on this earth.




> Also the government is EVIL and the men who run are EVIL. The government and the men who run deny the Lordship and Kingship of Christ. Where is written in our government that all men must bow there knees to the King Jesus and kiss His hand? It does not. So how then should we as Christians in good conscience enter into a system that denies the Lordship and Kingship of Jesus Christ?



Again, the government in and of itself is not Evil, though there are many evil men and women who work in the government. If it means we run for office, then we run for office and be the light in THAT darkness, we certainly shouldn't run from the challenge of the fight. 

We enter into it the same way we enter into ANY career that has Un-saved and Ungoldy people within it's bounds, our Battlefield for Christ is where ever Christ puts us in ths world, our neighborhoods, our jobs, the local grocery store, the local hair salon or barber shop--where ever there are LOST people, is God's Battle ground and we are called to fight the battle.

As Christians we can not stay holed up within the confines of Church buildings, Church functions, and Christian Schools, if we do that, we are only preaching and teaching to the proverbial Choir.

Christ has called us to be HIS Witnesses, His Soilders, His Arms, His Legs, His Mouth, His ears, His hands (ect), we will not win these battles sitting in church pews singing hymns, we must get out into the battlefield and help fight the fight Christ has called us to, to share the Gospel with a lost and dying world. Can you tell me who is called by and who isn't? If you do not know who God is calling and who He is not calling, then shouldn't we be out telling EVERYONE, not waiting on someone else to tell them? It could be God only desires you to plant the seed, and someone else reap the gain of seeing them come to Christ, but we still need to be about God's business while here on earth not just sitting around complaining about how bad things are, while waiting on His return.

Read Ephesians 6:10-20--God has given us our battle garmets, and we are to use them in the world, the Church is to teach us how to use these weapons, so that when we go out into the world, and prepared for the battle before us, so that we do not run away in fear and trembling. 

It doesn't matter if the people in Government tell us to bow our knee to Christ, what matters is that WE have bowed our knee to Christ as individuals and have sworn allegence to Him. He is OUR KING, He is the one who gives us our marching orders in this world, and He tells us to GO!

Sure there are times we sit and wait on our next assignment, but we should still be busy in prayer, and making sure our battle garmets are in place and ready for the next battle, and even training the next generation for the battles God will be calling them to on His behalf. 

There will also be times we are injured in battle, and suffer losses, and during those times, we are to encourage one another, lifting each other up. But all the while, others are still in battle that need our prayers, support and encouraging words. 

Do you not understand, the battle though it is spiritual, is also being fought in the physical? The entire Bible is all about that, the spiritual battles that have been fought by God through men in the physical world and continue to be fought by God through men in the physical world. The battle has always been two fold, being fought in two realms, that co-exist together.


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## Bladestunner316 (Oct 21, 2006)

Bladestunner316



Quote:
I dont think that just because God ordained evil men to be in power we should just be idle and and except it and move on as though its nothing. I believe that God has ordained all things. 

Please show me where I said we should? 

Bobbi said,
Yes, the leaders of this nation are sinners and some of them are ungodly, but who raises up those leaders? Does not the Bible teach us it is God that raises up who He wants in office, be they ungodly or Godly, For HIS Purpose? 

Does it matter if we think their agenda is ungodly, if God Himself has raised them up, through the political voting system or through a war?

Blade says,
You sure sound like it in your post. That if God raises them up why should we care whether there ungodly or not. You might want to clarify your post.

After reading the verses you posted I correct myslef on what I said earlier about suffering. 

But I dont want to argue with you which this is leading to. I dont support this ungodly government. I believe this government and most of the men who run are evil. Not all fo the men are evil. There are plenty of Christians in the military and possibly in the poitical system too. But the government is anti-christian. It allows abortions, immorality, unjust wars, and promotes polytheism,universalism, and atheism. 

The End,
Blade


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## Contra_Mundum (Oct 21, 2006)

Hey friends,
I think this thread has gone so far off topic that we're better off just closing it down. If you want to pick this sort of thing up again, another topic in the appropriate forum, please.

Thanks for coming.
thread locked


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