# I'm the Worst Sinner I Know



## Jeff Burns (Nov 7, 2012)

Lately I've heard this phrase thrown around more and more, "I'm the worst sinner I know" or, "You're the worst sinner you know."

Most recently I heard someone counseling a girl whose dad had been caught in sins of addiction to pray for him and be merciful towards him, "Because after all, you're the worst sinner in your house." Is this accurate? Is this helpful? Is this how Paul intended us to apply 1 Tim 1.15? How does Matt 7:3ff influence this? Or James 5:16?


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Nov 7, 2012)

Sometimes these sort of statements are couched in a wee bit of self-righteousness. Better to argue we are all unprofitable servants rather than beat our chests about how we are the chief of sinners.


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## Bill The Baptist (Nov 7, 2012)

I think it is important to remember that even one sin would be enough to condemn us if not for the blood of Christ. Our own sin, regardless of anyone else's, was enough to neccesitate the cross, and so in this sense we all are the "chief" of sinners.


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## Theoretical (Nov 7, 2012)

Jeff Burns said:


> Lately I've heard this phrase thrown around more and more, "I'm the worst sinner I know" or, "You're the worst sinner you know."
> 
> Most recently I heard someone counseling a girl whose dad had been caught in sins of addiction to pray for him and be merciful towards him, "Because after all, you're the worst sinner in your house." Is this accurate? Is this helpful? Is this how Paul intended us to apply 1 Tim 1.15? How does Matt 7:3ff influence this? Or James 5:16?



It's a poor thing to apply to another. What troubles me about this counseling example is that it confuses the girl's internal depravity with her dad's external and internal sins. While she should properly see herself as the worst sinner SHE knows when evaluating others' sins, that's because she has done self-examination and sees various ugly crevices in her soul. The purpose of this is to keep her from self-righteous pride that "at least I'm not like that p)*#/drug/booze/whatever addict like my dad." 

But her sins are not notorious, public, or external like her father's and on the external/public sphere* confusion must be avoided*, or else you've greatly hurt her and should have never "helped" in the first place. Defuse self-righteousness if she displays it but do not lead her to simply disregard what has been done.

I also agree it's often stated with self-righteousness many times in a way similar to bragging about fishing or how "moral" people boast about their wild youth.


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## SolaScriptura (Nov 7, 2012)

There's much ink that's been spilt on the importance of not being proud, and of understanding that we are wicked sinners, and that, like GK Chesterton, we should see that the biggest problem in the world is "me." 

But the doctrine of total depravity teaches that there is not a part of me unaffected by sin, and as such, I am spiritually dead. But total depravity expressly does NOT teach that each of us is as bad as we could be, or that each of us has given ourselves to our depravity to the same extent.


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## Zach (Nov 7, 2012)

> I think Dr. Edwards provides the proper way to look upon others' sins:
> Resolved, to act, in all respects, both speaking and doing, as if nobody had been so vile as I, and as if I had committed the same sins, or had the same infirmities or failings as others; and that I will let the knowledge of their failings promote nothing but shame in myself, and prove only an occasion of my confessing my own sins and misery to God.​



You share that quote often, and every time it convicts me of my own sinfulness and need for Christ. Thanks for the great reminder, Brother.


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## Jeff Burns (Nov 7, 2012)

Bill The Baptist said:


> I think it is important to remember that even one sin would be enough to condemn us if not for the blood of Christ. Our own sin, regardless of anyone else's, was enough to neccesitate the cross, and so in this sense we all are the "chief" of sinners.



So do we recognize any degrees of sinfulness then?


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## Jeff Burns (Nov 7, 2012)

> I think Dr. Edwards provides the proper way to look upon others' sins:
> Resolved, to act, in all respects, both speaking and doing, as if nobody had been so vile as I, and as if I had committed the same sins, or had the same infirmities or failings as others; and that I will let the knowledge of their failings promote nothing but shame in myself, and prove only an occasion of my confessing my own sins and misery to God.​



Very helpful to remember indeed. When is the proper time to present this to someone who's life has been negatively affected by another's sin?


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## Jeff Burns (Nov 7, 2012)

Theoretical said:


> It's a poor thing to apply to another. What troubles me about this counseling example is that it confuses the girl's internal depravity with her dad's external and internal sins. While she should properly see herself as the worst sinner SHE knows when evaluating others' sins, that's because she has done self-examination and sees various ugly crevices in her soul. The purpose of this is to keep her from self-righteous pride that "at least I'm not like that p)*#/drug/booze/whatever addict like my dad."
> 
> But her sins are not notorious, public, or external like her father's and on the external/public sphere* confusion must be avoided*, or else you've greatly hurt her and should have never "helped" in the first place. Defuse self-righteousness if she displays it but do not lead her to simply disregard what has been done.



Agreed. It seems like a category confusion.


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## Jeff Burns (Nov 7, 2012)

SolaScriptura said:


> But the doctrine of total depravity teaches that there is not a part of me unaffected by sin, and as such, I am spiritually dead. But total depravity expressly does NOT teach that each of us is as bad as we could be, or that each of us has given ourselves to our depravity to the same extent.



I always wonder if this isn't what's being forgotten. Are we leaving room for degrees of sinfulness when we tell someone "You're the worst sinner in your home"? 

Do we recognize degrees of sinfulness? If so, how do such degrees of sinfulness affect how we counsel those affected by sin?


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## Bill The Baptist (Nov 7, 2012)

Jeff Burns said:


> Bill The Baptist said:
> 
> 
> > I think it is important to remember that even one sin would be enough to condemn us if not for the blood of Christ. Our own sin, regardless of anyone else's, was enough to neccesitate the cross, and so in this sense we all are the "chief" of sinners.
> ...



In a civil sense, of course there are degrees of sin. We execute murderers but not thieves. In the same way, when we face judgment, we will be judged according to our deeds. The point I think that Paul was trying to make was that our sin, however small, is still sufficient to warrant the righteous judgment of God, and therefore we should never underestimate the immense gift that the death of Christ has given us.


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## Peairtach (Nov 7, 2012)

We know our own sins better than others' sins, and they are our sins, so we can always feel worse about our own sins before God than those of others.


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## Jeff Burns (Nov 7, 2012)

Peairtach said:


> We know our own sins better than others' sins, and they are our sins, so we can always feel worse about our own sins before God than those of others.



So would you counsel a man's wife who just caught him in the act of, say adultery for instance, that she should feel worse about her sin of having a hateful thought (murder) when she caught him that day and to forgive her husband and offer him grace?


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## Miss Marple (Nov 7, 2012)

I agree Jeff, that is cold comfort, and I'll venture to say not biblical; Scripture does not blame the victim. That's rather an Islamic notion, is it not? I think of women being stoned for being raped and blamed for being beaten.

God is a God of compassion, not of callousness. He acknowledges the suffering of a victim at the hands of a perpetrator, and prescribes serious sanctions against those who sin against others. These sanctions are detailed and repeated exhaustively. Yet I can't think of any scripture that instructs the victim to quit complaining since they are sinful, too.l To bring up a wife's sinful condition to her when she comes to you for help after being betrayed by her husband would be a sinful thing to do, in my opinion.


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## earl40 (Nov 7, 2012)

Jeff Burns said:


> So do we recognize any degrees of sinfulness then?



Reprobation like election is NOT based on works. The degree of penalty in hell is based on the sin committed in this life. Imputation works BOTH ways.


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## Jeff Burns (Nov 7, 2012)

earl40 said:


> Jeff Burns said:
> 
> 
> > So do we recognize any degrees of sinfulness then?
> ...



My question wasn't regarding punishment in hell, but distinction in this life, specifically as related to this "I'm the worst sinner I know" mentality. Are you a worse sinner than the serial killer or child molester? Do we recognize degrees of sinfulness? If not, why not?


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## JimmyH (Nov 7, 2012)

Jeff Burns said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> > Jeff Burns said:
> ...


I'm certainly no theologian. Not guilty of that sin. But I remember when I first got saved and reading in Romans chapter 2 verse 1,"Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; _for you who judge practice the same things_." I couldn't agree with this because I am not and have never been a child molester. It took me some time to realize that I am not a child molester by the grace of God. If that had been my inclination I would have been guilty of that. I began looking at individual sins to realize my need of a Saviour. The realization that never having loved God with all of my heart, soul, mind and strength is condemnation enough took a bit longer. As MLJ has said, what we should focus on is not individual sins, but a right relationship with God the Father. At the same time we do work to rid ourselves of our individual sins, to be the 'peculiar people, zealous of good works'.


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## MW (Nov 7, 2012)

We must all appreciate the importance of humility and of honesty about our failings, but we should also recognise there is a false humility. The apostle states that a spiritual man is necessary to restore one overtaken in a fault, Galatians 6:1, and that he should do so in the spirit of meekness. One should not be characterised as lacking true spirituality or Christian meekness on the basis that he identifies a fault in another which he personally does not commit.


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## Peairtach (Nov 7, 2012)

Jeff Burns said:


> Peairtach said:
> 
> 
> > We know our own sins better than others' sins, and they are our sins, so we can always feel worse about our own sins before God than those of others.
> ...



No. Principles of biblical church discipline and if necessary sanctions should be applied if they're within the Church.

The woman - whether a Christian or not - should also be made aware that she doesn't have to ultimately forgive her husband in such a way that she cannot,if she wishes, according to the Bible seek divorce and possible re-marriage to someone else.

Ideally there would be a strong remedy for the victim (s) of adultery in civil law, to help deter adultery, whereby they could take the adulterer "to the cleaners" if they so wished i.e. they could sue them for everything they have. Maybe a few years hard labour for adultery wouldn't go amiss, but we're not living in that world, at present.

We must - to some extent - distinguish the need for forgiveness and not harbouring bitter and disconteded thoughts against God's difficult priovidences and against iindividuals that have wronged us, and the need for the right things to be done, and remedies to be available, in the interests of godly order and equity.


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## Pergamum (Nov 7, 2012)

I once heard a pastor speaking about a married couple considering divorce. It seemed that the pastor did not believe there was any biblical reason for a divorce. Even though the man had committed adultery, this pastor stated "there is no such thing as an innocent party in the case of divorce." I think this was a real injustice to the wife. She was an "innocent" party - at least as far as the reasons for the divorce went.

Also, I know some Christians that go on and on about how sinful they are, what a worm they are, or how deserving of God's wrath they are. They often seem robbed of joy. I tire of all this "wormy" talk....




> Lately I've heard this phrase thrown around more and more, "I'm the worst sinner I know" or, "You're the worst sinner you know."
> 
> Most recently I heard someone counseling a girl whose dad had been caught in sins of addiction to pray for him and be merciful towards him, "Because after all, you're the worst sinner in your house." Is this accurate? Is this helpful? Is this how Paul intended us to apply 1 Tim 1.15? How does Matt 7:3ff influence this? Or James 5:16?



I think this advice might alienate this teenager and cause her to be leary of asking for any more advice from a pastor such as this.


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## Jeff Burns (Nov 7, 2012)

Pergamum said:


> Also, I know some Christians that go on and on about how sinful they are, what a worm they are, or how deserving of God's wrath they are. They often seem robbed of joy. I tire of all this "wormy" talk....



Have you ever read the Diary of David Brainerd? I'm giving it my 3rd or 4th go right now, trying to get through it to see why it's been such a classic for 250 years. I am learning some reasons why for sure, but am having a very hard time (as I did in attempts 1, 2, and 3) of reading so many entries about how vile he is and how unworthy he is to even approach God and how there's no one on the planet more wretched, miserable, wicked, and sinful than he is. It seem tremendously unhealthy to say the least.



Pergamum said:


> I think this advice might alienate this teenager and cause her to be leary of asking for any more advice from a pastor such as this.



Yes, I think so too. And probably rightfully so.


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## MW (Nov 7, 2012)

Jeff Burns said:


> It seem tremendously unhealthy to say the least.



The point to be made there is that the godly missionary was expressing his personal feelings of unworthiness before God and thereby assuring himself of the only way to enter the presence of the most high and holy God, which is through the merits of Christ. That is spiritual health at its best. This is altogether different from letting one's feelings of unworthiness be known before men as an excuse for not judging sin as sin. Such an action is degenerating and degrading.


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## Jeff Burns (Nov 7, 2012)

armourbearer said:


> The point to be made there is that the godly missionary was expressing his personal feelings of unworthiness before God and thereby assuring himself of the only way to enter the presence of the most high and holy God, which is through the merits of Christ.



Very true. I try to remind myself of that as I read (like I said, I am learning much as I read, just struggling to make it all fit together). However, there are numerous examples of times when he seems almost wholly unable to function because of his overwhelming feelings of self-deprecation. One day he is soaring in the heights of his position in Christ and the next he seems to have almost entirely lost sight of that same status/position and is wallowing in near despair over his wretchedness, vileness, etc. etc. Is this a model of spiritual health?


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## MW (Nov 7, 2012)

Jeff Burns said:


> armourbearer said:
> 
> 
> > The point to be made there is that the godly missionary was expressing his personal feelings of unworthiness before God and thereby assuring himself of the only way to enter the presence of the most high and holy God, which is through the merits of Christ.
> ...



I think it is sincere and honest, which ministers to spiritual health and growth. "In whose spirit there is no guile" is a quality of that blessed man whose transgression is forgiven. Our age is one of charitable activism, which means the priority is on getting things done, even at the expense of ensuring they are done with the right motive. This is quite unhealthy from a Christian standpoint which regards the end of the commandment to be charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned, 1 Timothy 1:5.


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## Edward (Nov 7, 2012)

Jeff Burns said:


> "Because after all, you're the worst sinner in your house."



The proper response to that one would be 'Then why don't you drop by and then I won't be any more'. 

Seriously, the 'counselor' quoted needs to brush up on the 10 Commandments. And be given tasks within his or her level of competence. Because there is a word for folks who cut slack to addicts - it's called 'enabler'. 

Although the more I think on it, I wonder if it is a question of competence or merely evil. Why would the 'counselor' be trying to make the daughter feel guilty. Perhaps there is something in his or her life that needs to be examined.


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## Miss Marple (Nov 7, 2012)

Edward, I wish I could "find your post helpful" twice. How terrible it is to accuse a child who comes to you for help.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Nov 7, 2012)

Perhaps the counselor in the OP is trying to get the daughter to realize that she as well as her father has "remaining corruption" and that she ought look to her own heart before condemning his (we did not get any background info on this situation; nor do we know what the "sins of addiction" are). I can see where someone could say this to a person if that person (here, the daughter) was being harshly and self-righteously judgmental of her dad. Quotes out of context can be misunderstood.

I think the gospel truth is made clear in the saying, "We are more wicked than we ever dared think, and – simultaneously – more loved than we ever dared hope." A godly soul will own that his or her knowledge of remaining corruption within makes them flee to the Saviour for mercy and grace, and that the knowledge of God's love for them as they abide in the Beloved transforms their wretchedness into joyous grateful children.

When we know our own wretchedness – the depths of it – it is not hard to say with Paul, "Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves" (Phil 2:3). In other words, "They certainly can't be as bad as I am – apart from God's daily saving grace!"


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## Pergamum (Nov 7, 2012)

Jeff Burns said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > Also, I know some Christians that go on and on about how sinful they are, what a worm they are, or how deserving of God's wrath they are. They often seem robbed of joy. I tire of all this "wormy" talk....
> ...



Regarding David Brainerd: I think his journal is helpful in many respects. 

BUT...as a model for would-be missionaries or would-be ministers I don't think Brainerd is always the best choice of reading material.

My fear is that much in the book that is descriptive will become a prescriptive model for how missionaries "should" feel once they arrive on the field. 

I know one Christian who was reading Brainerd's journals and, instead, of merely being encouraged to exercise a sober seriousness about spiritual things, his demeanor sort of became "depressive" for awhile, as if "more forlorn" meant "more holy" or something. After reading Brainerd I, myself, wondered, "Should I be this happy most of the time? Am I living too light? Do I lack the seriousness of Brainerd?"

I believe his depression and his sober seriousness proves to us that we should persevere despite trials. God is pleased to use us despite our weaknesses. Souls are so precious that we should be willing to wear out our bodies and ride hours through winter storms in wilderness to reach the lost and to persevere despite a weakening frame. These things are very commendable. But let us not read of the weaknesses of his depression and mistake these moods as a desired state.

But...thank God for his great depth of emotion (even though these deep emotions cut both ways):





> As I was walking in a dark thick grave, "unspeakable glory" seemed to open to the view and apprehension of my soul ... It was a new inward apprehension or view that I had of God; such as I never had before, nor anything that I had the least remembrance of it. So that I stood still and wondered and admired ... I had now no particular apprehension of any one person of the Trinity, either the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit, but it appeared to be divine glory and splendor that I then beheld. And my soul "rejoiced wit joy unspeakable" to see such a God, such a glorious divine being, and I was inwardly pleased and satisfied that he should be God over all forever and ever. My soul was so captivated and delighted with the excellency, the loveliness and the greatness and other perfections of God that I was even swallowed up in him, at least to that degree that I had no thought, as I remember at first, about my own salvation or scarce that there was such a creature as I.
> 
> Thus the Lord, I trust, brought me to a hearty desire to exalt him, to set him on the throne and to "seek first his Kingdom," i.e. principally and ultimately to aim at his honor and glory as the King and sovereign of the universe, which is the foundation of the religion of Jesus ... I felt myself in a new world (pp. 138-140)."


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## Edward (Nov 7, 2012)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Perhaps the counselor in the OP is trying to get the daughter to realize that she as well as her father has "remaining corruption" and that she ought look to her own heart before condemning his



That kind of thinking in the church has been used to cover up a lot of evil over the years. 

Don't try to shift the focus from the evildoer. Don't blame the victim. Don't cover up. Fairly simple rules. Simply fair rules.


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## kappazei (Nov 8, 2012)

All kinds of wierd things happen when we tiry to live our lives by soundbytes.


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## Randy in Tulsa (Nov 8, 2012)

Having been in the position of the Dad in the OP scenario, I can testify that it is very difficult for some family members and church family members to ever believe that someone who has been exposed for living in a particular sin can repent and truly change. When I confessed my sins to my wife, all of my children, the spouses of my married children, my elders, etc., I knew that God's power had healed and changed me. However, it was clear from things that I heard months later that others didn't believe. And it was not just a matter of more time passing. In a conversation with an elder's wife nearly a year after my "being exposed," I was reminded that another man in church, who had sinned greatly decades earlier, "was a fool then and is still a fool," despite the fact he had repented long ago and had faithfully stayed in the church all those years. There is a great need in the lives of Christians who must deal with the sins of other Christians, including the daughter in the OP and the elder's wife I just mentioned. Jesus not only forgives the “recently unregenerated” sinners; he forgives the “long regenerated” sinners as well. Moreover, Jesus can and does heal and fill penitent sinners with his power to walk in new obedience. The duty of the sinner is to continue in repentance unto life, faith towards Christ, and diligently pursue the means of grace. The duty of the ones "sinned against" or standing on the periphery of the exposed sinner's experience is to do exactly the same things - repent, exercise faith and diligently pursue the means of grace in their own lives. If I were counseling the daughter, I would remind her that true Christians can fall into sin, even a pattern of sin, for a season (see the WCF, 17.3) ; that Christ will always pursue his own; that Christ has the power to forgive and heal and change and enable the sinner to truly repent and walk in a manner worthy of the calling of Christ (WCF 13.3); that we all have sinned (the one point stressed by the counselor); that we all must repent of our sins, continue to express faith in Christ and diligently pursue the means of grace. When we not only acknowledge our sins, but confess and repent them, act in faith towards Christ and pursue the means of grace in our own lives, we will find it easier – no, natural – to truly forgive and love others as Christ intended.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Nov 8, 2012)

Edward, it is true what you say, that much evil has been done by a counsel which blames the victim – no denying that at all. But it also may be true that we do not have enough information on what was given in the OP to make the judgments of the counsellor which I have seen here rendered.


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## Pergamum (Nov 8, 2012)

Randy in Tulsa said:


> Having been in the position of the Dad in the OP scenario, I can testify that it is very difficult for some family members and church family members to ever believe that someone who has been exposed for living in a particular sin can repent and truly change. When I confessed my sins to my wife, all of my children, the spouses of my married children, my elders, etc., I knew that God's power had healed and changed me. However, it was clear from things that I heard months later that others didn't believe. And it was not just a matter of more time passing. In a conversation with an elder's wife nearly a year after my "being exposed," I was reminded that another man in church, who had sinned greatly decades earlier, "was a fool then and is still a fool," despite the fact he had repented long ago and had faithfully stayed in the church all those years. There is a great need in the lives of Christians who must deal with the sins of other Christians, including the daughter in the OP and the elder's wife I just mentioned. Jesus not only forgives the “recently unregenerated” sinners; he forgives the “long regenerated” sinners as well. Moreover, Jesus can and does heal and fill penitent sinners with his power to walk in new obedience. The duty of the sinner is to continue in repentance unto life, faith towards Christ, and diligently pursue the means of grace. The duty of the ones "sinned against" or standing on the periphery of the exposed sinner's experience is to do exactly the same things - repent, exercise faith and diligently pursue the means of grace in their own lives. If I were counseling the daughter, I would remind her that true Christians can fall into sin, even a pattern of sin, for a season (see the WCF, 17.3) ; that Christ will always pursue his own; that Christ has the power to forgive and heal and change and enable the sinner to truly repent and walk in a manner worthy of the calling of Christ (WCF 13.3); that we all have sinned (the one point stressed by the counselor); that we all must repent of our sins, continue to express faith in Christ and diligently pursue the means of grace. When we not only acknowledge our sins, but confess and repent them, act in faith towards Christ and pursue the means of grace in our own lives, we will find it easier – no, natural – to truly forgive and love others as Christ intended.



Very encouraging, thanks.


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## Edward (Nov 8, 2012)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Edward, it is true what you say, that much evil has been done by a counsel which blames the victim – no denying that at all. But it also may be true that we do not have enough information on what was given in the OP to make the judgments of the counsellor which I have seen here rendered.



Unless she was an axe murderer, standing over a room full of bodies with blood dripping off the blade, the comment was inappropriate. So to the extent that we treat the absence of a recitation of those facts as a possibility that that might be the case, I'll concede your point that we don't have enough information.


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