# When Is Nationalism Just Plain Stupid?



## Blueridge Believer (Nov 13, 2006)

Think of the message you just sent. It blasphemes the God of Heaven. God did not send his Son so men could dwell in peace and happiness, He sent Him to pay the price for sin and save mens souls from the flames of Hell. To compare what Jesus Christ did on the cross of Calvery with what a GI does on a battle field of blasphemy of the highest sort. Jesus didn't come to kill for the state. The state was used by the religious leaders of the day to kill Him.
----- Original Message ----- 
Think of The Message








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A mother asked President Bush, 

"Why did my son have to die in Iraq?"

Another mother asked President Kennedy, 

"Why did my son have to die in Viet Nam?"

Another mother asked President Truman, 

"Why did my son have to die in Korea?

Another mother asked President F.D. Roosevelt, 

"Why did my son have to die at Iwo Jima?"

Another mother asked President W. Wilson, 

"Why did my son have to die on the battlefield of France?"

Yet another mother asked President Lincoln, 

"Why did my son have to die at Gettysburg?"

And yet another mother asked President G. Washington, 

"Why did my son have to die near Valley Forge?"

Then long, long ago, a mother asked...
"Heavenly Father, why did my Son have to die 
on a cross outside of Jerusalem?"

The answers to all these are similar -- 

"So that others may have life and dwell in peace, 
happiness and freedom."

This was emailed to me with no author 
and I thought the magnitude 
and the simplicity were awesome .

Love to All

IF YOU DON'T STAND BEHIND OUR TROOPS,
PLEASE, FEEL FREE...
TO STAND IN FRONT OF THEM !!!!!


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## Blueridge Believer (Nov 13, 2006)

This was an e-mail between my arminian, dispenstionalist, my country drunk or sober flag waving nationalist brother. I get bombarded with this kind of stuff daily from my "religious" family members.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 13, 2006)

When is nationalism wrong? Always. As I define the terms--and I don't think my definition is too arbitrary--patriotism is love for one's land, nationalism is fanatical loyalty to the State.

Rushdoony was perceptive on this. I was listening to his lectures on Medieval and Reformation history. He was talking about the rise of nationalism in Europe. He said thsi is where most Conservatives go way wrong. They automatically think Nationalism is good. But WWII was a fight between Socialistic Nationalism and Socialistic Internationalism (that's oversimplifying, btw but the point stands). Rushdoony said the correct response was "A plague on both your houses!"


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## Blueridge Believer (Nov 13, 2006)

Draught Horse said:


> When is nationalism wrong? Always. As I define the terms--and I don't think my definition is too arbitrary--patriotism is love for one's land, nationalism is fanatical loyalty to the State.
> 
> Rushdoony was perceptive on this. I was listening to his lectures on Medieval and Reformation history. He was talking about the rise of nationalism in Europe. He said thsi is where most Conservatives go way wrong. They automatically think Nationalism is good. But WWII was a fight between Socialistic Nationalism and Socialistic Internationalism (that's oversimplifying, btw but the point stands). Rushdoony said the correct response was "A plague on both your houses!"


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## Pergamum (Nov 13, 2006)

How many of your churches have american flags flying somewhere in the same room as the pulpit?


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## Blueridge Believer (Nov 13, 2006)

trevorjohnson said:


> How many of your churches have american flags flying somewhere in the same room as the pulpit?




Not in our church. However, you're a horrible heretic among some baptists of the fundamental sort if you don't have one beside the pulpit. I've seem them have the pledge of allegience during a service. Some will go as far as to "church" you if you don't vote republican.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 13, 2006)

trevorjohnson said:


> How many of your churches have american flags flying somewhere in the same room as the pulpit?



Not mine. "No King but Jesus!"


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## LadyFlynt (Nov 13, 2006)

I would throw a rip roaring fit (well, a silent steaming one anyhow) if there was one in ours. I do have a CSA flag in our schoolroom.


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## caddy (Nov 13, 2006)

Not to sidetrack the thread, but this brings up some ugly questions which run the party lines.

It is a pandora's box: Right to Life vs. "A Women's Choice."

While specific parties cannot be preached for or against in the Pulpit, issues can. I may offend many by my admisson of being Republican, but it is a simple matter of which party is closer to truth and a culture of life.  




Blueridge reformer said:


> Some will go as far as to "church" you if you don't vote republican.


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## caddy (Nov 13, 2006)

LadyFlynt said:


> I do have a CSA flag in our schoolroom.


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## Pergamum (Nov 13, 2006)

A TRUE STORY FROM MY DEPUTATION:

I was invited to speak for 5-7 minutes at a Southern Baptist Church in the Deep South on the subject of mission work in SE Asia. This speaking engagement corresponded with the 4th of July. I forgot all about it until I got there. 

I gave a short appeal for interest in the Global Cause of our Global God for every tongue, tribe and nation. 

Then I sat down, they removed the pulpit and put a flag pole up on center stage. The lights dimmed, and then 3 girls who were 16 year olds (in various stages of "Blossoming" into adulthood) took the stage in skin tight leotards to perform an interpretive dance around the flag to the song "American the Beautiful." At the end, the lights dimmed and they fell down with their hands outstretched towards the flag (and their butts to the audience).


The lights came back on and I looked around, aghast. I barely got a facial movement and now, for this, the whole palce erupted in applause and it seemed like everyone was crying.

After several minutes of continued applause and more crying and hugging of these girls, the pastor stood up to speak briefly about how Baptists were the best denomination because they were truly democratic and even consulted many committees. God has blessed the Baptists and has blessed America due to our idealistic stand on the principles of democracy.

Then, I left the church building with barely a handshake or a "Thanks for coming."

Reactions: Wow 1


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## Blueridge Believer (Nov 13, 2006)

caddy said:


> Not to sidetrack the thread, but this brings up some ugly questions which run the party lines.
> 
> It is a padora's box: Right to Life vs. "A Women's Choice."
> 
> While specific parties cannot be preached for or against in the Pulpit, issues can. I may offend many by my admisson of being Republican, but it is a simple matter of which party is closer to truth and a culture of life.



That's a matter of concience for you dear brother. Personally, I feel that all politicians, regardless of thier party should be limited to two terms. The first term in office and the second in jail!


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## Theoretical (Nov 13, 2006)

That's truly sad - no wonder you were utterly disturbed by that kind of a response.


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## caddy (Nov 13, 2006)

All I can say is:  





trevorjohnson said:


> A TRUE STORY FROM MY DEPUTATION:
> 
> I was invited to speak for 5-7 minutes at a Southern Baptist Church in the Deep South on the subject of mission work in SE Asia. This speaking engagement corresponded with the 4th of July. I forgot all about it until I got there.
> 
> ...


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## Blueridge Believer (Nov 13, 2006)

trevorjohnson said:


> A TRUE STORY FROM MY DEPUTATION:
> 
> I was invited to speak for 5-7 minutes at a Southern Baptist Church in the Deep South on the subject of mission work in SE Asia. This speaking engagement corresponded with the 4th of July. I forgot all about it until I got there.
> 
> ...



God help us! If that isn't apostacy I don't know what is.


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## caddy (Nov 13, 2006)

I am with you there brother...



Blueridge reformer said:


> That's a matter of concience for you dear brother. Personally, I feel that all politicians, regardless of thier party should be limited to two terms. The first term in office and the second in jail!


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## LadyFlynt (Nov 13, 2006)

caddy said:


>


It's a schoolroom, not a church....and the flag was a gift from a friend. Basically, it's "because I can"  Looking for a Scottish flag also if anyone has one...


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## Blueridge Believer (Nov 13, 2006)

LadyFlynt said:


> It's a schoolroom, not a church....and the flag was a gift from a friend. Basically, it's "because I can"  Looking for a Scottish flag also if anyone has one...



I have the stars and bars on my wall as well dear lady!


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## KenPierce (Nov 13, 2006)

We've been thus far able to resist that. IT helps that our pulpit area is very cramped! We do, however, have them in the fellowship hall --since it's not used for worship, it's not as big of a deal. I'd rather not have them anywhere!

And, it's not because I am anything other than patriotic!


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## Blueridge Believer (Nov 13, 2006)

Good morning brother Ken! Did you sleep late today? How are you brother?


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## Blue Tick (Nov 13, 2006)

trevorjohnson said:


> How many of your churches have american flags flying somewhere in the same room as the pulpit?



My former Dispensational church had the American, Christian, and Israeli flag.


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## Anton Bruckner (Nov 13, 2006)

Blue Tick said:


> My former Dispensational church had the, American, Christian, and Israeli flag.


typical. Haggee's Church had, "Israel Night"


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## py3ak (Nov 13, 2006)

Trevor, that's about the most disgusting thing I've ever heard. Thanks for sharing.
And everyone can consider my unpatriotic if they like.


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## Pilgrim (Nov 14, 2006)

trevorjohnson said:


> How many of your churches have american flags flying somewhere in the same room as the pulpit?



Not in mine.


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## Pilgrim (Nov 14, 2006)

trevorjohnson said:


> A TRUE STORY FROM MY DEPUTATION:
> 
> I was invited to speak for 5-7 minutes at a Southern Baptist Church in the Deep South on the subject of mission work in SE Asia. This speaking engagement corresponded with the 4th of July. I forgot all about it until I got there.
> 
> ...



I think it's pretty clear by their response what their religion is. I think it can be termed The American Religion, or Civil Religion. 

Its particularly ironic coming from a denomination that has always trumpeted separation of church and state. Another questionable occurence was the reported thunderous applause at this year's convention for a live (via satellite, I think) speech from "pro-choice" Secretary of State Rice.


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## Pilgrim (Nov 14, 2006)

To rephrase the thread title a bit, when does nationalism equal idolatry?


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## Herald (Nov 14, 2006)

Pilgrim said:


> To rephrase the thread title a bit, when does nationalism equal idolatry?



Chris, your rephrasing does change the tenor of the discussion.

When love of country supplants love of God, then you have idolatry. _It is_ possible to "love" ones country to the edge of fanaticism. I am reminded of the Bolshevik's who fought on behalf of "Mother Russia." Now, we may have cut them a little slack if they used this mantra as a rallying cry during their armed revolution, but it continued as their mode of governing. In essence it became worship of the state. Idolatry. But even a good cause can be idolatrous. If involvement in civic government robs much needed time from God you are involved in a form of idolatry.


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## Semper Fidelis (Nov 14, 2006)

trevorjohnson said:


> A TRUE STORY FROM MY DEPUTATION:
> 
> I was invited to speak for 5-7 minutes at a Southern Baptist Church in the Deep South on the subject of mission work in SE Asia. This speaking engagement corresponded with the 4th of July. I forgot all about it until I got there.
> 
> ...



I hadn't really checked in on this thread before. You know what is interesting about that "dance" is that you could videotape that and show that to people relatively unfamiliar with American Evangelicals and say "...this pretty much sums it up...."

I was deployed to Korea in August and my wife helped out with the Vacation Bible School at our Church. I'm not a big fan of those things but we try not to be too obnoxious in our objection to a lot of the craziness that surrounds the SBC. Anyhow, they used the Southern Baptist Church curriculum for the VBS predictably.

As you all know, we live in Okinawa, *Japan* and part of the goal of the VBS is an outreach to the local community. Many Japanese children attend the VBS who otherwise do not attend the Church (nor do their families). I think their parents like the fact that they get to interact with American kids and learn a little English (we never have any families join as a result of the VBS but that's another story in itself).

Did I mention that we live in Japan?

Well at the beginning of each day's activiities. The children, according to the curriculum, line up and recite the Pledge of Allegiance to the U.S. flag. The person who put the curriculum together apparently didn't put two and two together before the VBS began nor throughout that she had a ton of Japanese children doing the same thing.

Did I mention that we live in Japan?

Worse, when their parents showed up on the last day of VBS on Friday they got to see their little children go through the motions of what it means to be a little "Christian" child. You guessed it, they lined the kids up and recited the Pledge of Allegiance to the American Flag.

Did I mention that we live in Japan?!

I was pretty ticked off about it when I found it but this is so typical. This is only emblematic of the way Americans export their theology in general. Neo-Pentecostal hand-waving to banal, repetitive rock praise choruses is what people think is normative here because white, middle-class Americans have exported their musical forms here too. It's just so frustrating.


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## Pergamum (Nov 14, 2006)

Rich;

I think your example is even more outragious than mine!


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## Semper Fidelis (Nov 14, 2006)

trevorjohnson said:


> Rich;
> 
> I think your example is even more outragious than mine!



I don't know, I honestly think the women who did it did so without thinking things through when they did it. Dancing in front of the American flag and bowing down to it in a Church: I would have _flipped out_.


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## LadyFlynt (Nov 14, 2006)

SemperFideles said:


> I don't know, I honestly think the women who did it did so without thinking things through when they did it. Dancing in front of the American flag and bowing down to it in a Church: I would have _flipped out_.


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## Kevin (Nov 14, 2006)

trevorjohnson said:


> How many of your churches have american flags flying somewhere in the same room as the pulpit?



Not mine 

I should add we have no flags. Although many churches here have both the Canadian & the Union Jack. 



Do have a battle flag on my desk though.


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## MrMerlin777 (Nov 14, 2006)

trevorjohnson said:


> A TRUE STORY FROM MY DEPUTATION:
> 
> I was invited to speak for 5-7 minutes at a Southern Baptist Church in the Deep South on the subject of mission work in SE Asia. This speaking engagement corresponded with the 4th of July. I forgot all about it until I got there.
> 
> ...






Whew! Trevor, what an experience! That is definitely nationalism bordering on just plain Idolatry. I don't know how I'd have reacted to that. I'd quite probably been moved to, quite frankly, WRETCH.


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## Pilgrim (Nov 15, 2006)

SemperFideles said:


> I hadn't really checked in on this thread before. You know what is interesting about that "dance" is that you could videotape that and show that to people relatively unfamiliar with American Evangelicals and say "...this pretty much sums it up...."
> 
> I was deployed to Korea in August and my wife helped out with the Vacation Bible School at our Church. I'm not a big fan of those things but we try not to be too obnoxious in our objection to a lot of the craziness that surrounds the SBC. Anyhow, they used the Southern Baptist Church curriculum for the VBS predictably.
> 
> ...




And thus the myth is perpetuated that Christianity is somehow a western, American or even white religion.


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## Pilgrim (Nov 15, 2006)

Blueridge reformer said:


> Think of the message you just sent. It blasphemes the God of Heaven. God did not send his Son so men could dwell in peace and happiness, He sent Him to pay the price for sin and save mens souls from the flames of Hell. To compare what Jesus Christ did on the cross of Calvery with what a GI does on a battle field of blasphemy of the highest sort. Jesus didn't come to kill for the state. The state was used by the religious leaders of the day to kill Him.
> ----- Original Message -----
> Think of The Message
> 
> ...



Several times recently I've gotten a message that is about as bad as this one. It's the one that states something like "only two people have volunteered to die for you, Jesus and a soldier". "One died for your soul and the other for your freedom" etc.


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## MrMerlin777 (Nov 15, 2006)

Being millitary and from a millitary family I get this kind of statist dung in my email all the time (yes I called it dung sorry for the bluntness but this stuff gets my dander up). Frankly being millitary I'll say this,I'm for supporting the troops in so far as we have a hard job to perform. But when does "support for the troops" become merely blind devotion to the state? I don't believe that, as Christians, we should have a "blind" devotion to anything. We don't have a blind devotion to Christ even, as He has opened our eyes to our helplessness and our need of Him.


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## MrMerlin777 (Nov 15, 2006)

Thanks for letting me rant. I'll get off of my soap box now.


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## Bladestunner316 (Nov 15, 2006)

Does anyone know if other christians in other nations are as nationalistic for their country/state as americans are?


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## Semper Fidelis (Nov 15, 2006)

Well I can tell you for a fact that the Japanese are NOT. It costs them a lot to become a Christian as you have to turn your back on a culture that worships its ancestors.


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## Timothy William (Nov 15, 2006)

Bladestunner316 said:


> Does anyone know if other christians in other nations are as nationalistic for their country/state as americans are?



In Australia, perhaps occasionally but not often. A considerably smaller proportion of the Oz population are regular church attenders, and we are, in general, far less openly patriotic than the US. Most Australian patriotism takes the form of "Oz is a wonderful place to live, I'm glad I was born here" rather than the "we are a great country, perhaps better than all the others" attitude which sometimes seems to come from America. We have far more the Brittish "stern and silent pride" than the American gung ho patriotism. Some Christians think that Australia is really a Christian country (unfortunately I can't agree) and many would think that our Christian heritage helped make us a fair, prosperous country, but few would mix religion and nationalism overtly. Also, in urban areas at least, immigrants from Asia and Africa are probably more likely to be Christians than the native population and the church has a more multi-ethnic, international outlook than society as a whole.


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## MrMerlin777 (Nov 15, 2006)

SemperFideles said:


> Well I can tell you for a fact that the Japanese are NOT. It costs them a lot to become a Christian as you have to turn your back on a culture that worships its ancestors.




I too have spent 6 years of my life in Japan and I know what you're saying. Shintoism is the state religion which "worships" a miriad of "gods" so called. One of which is their emperor. 

As you said the Japanese sacrifice alot to acknowledge Christ. Many are disowned by their families. It really is sad.

I still have friends on the mainland there some of which are still in bondage to their "state-religion". Some of which have had major bust ups with their families because of their faith in Christ. Again, it really is sad.


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