# Tim Keller not orthodox in his understanding of hell?



## T.A.G. (Jul 19, 2010)

http://download.redeemer.com/sermons/Hell_Isnt_the_God_of_Christianity.mp3

Has anyone listened to this?

Hell is not God's wrath abiding against them for all eternity but its the absence of God and hell is simply loosing your identity? Is this what he is saying? I do not want to unrighteously judge, so I would like to make sure with my other brother this is what is being said.

Regardless, terrible exegesis of luke 16


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## goodnews (Jul 19, 2010)

I haven't listened to that sermon but I do remember a good bit from a sermon he preached on the Rich Man and Lazarus. The gist of that sermon was that the delusions of sin continue unchecked in hell and we simply continue to disentegrate for all eternity. He points out that (rightly, I think) the Rich Man was still arrogant (despite his obvious surroundings) in hell in demanding that Lazarus do his bidding and tell his family not to come there, while still rejecting God's Word (specifically, the writings of Moses). The result, as I said above, is the continual groping around in the dark, searching for meaning, and continual frustration of not being able to fulfill your delusions. I think that's what he means by losing your identity (or disentegration of the person). I don't remember him saying that God's wrath isn't part of hell. What he did say was that hell was essentially a place where God's grace no longer existed and the fullness of the fall was able to emcompass the individual. 

There was more to it than that, but hopefully that will help some. I look forward to more discussion.


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## Philip (Jul 19, 2010)

> Hell is not God's wrath abiding against them for all eternity but its the absence of God and hell is simply loosing your identity? Is this what he is saying?



Listen again to the section on justice and judgment. I think He has a kind of both/and theology here.



> Regardless, terrible exegesis of luke 16



Actually, pretty good, In my humble opinion.


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## T.A.G. (Jul 19, 2010)

did we listen to the same sermon?


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## Philip (Jul 19, 2010)

T.A.G. said:


> did we listen to the same sermon?


 
What does Romans 1 say about what God's wrath and judgment looks like? It is giving the person over to the misery of their sin.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 20, 2010)

Is Hell about giving them over to sin as Romans 1 speaks of or a sinner's eternal punishment. Those are two different things. You can be given over to being sinful and working out your sin in Romans 1 and that has eternal consequences. But is that the same thing as the consequences of Eternal Punishment?


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## DeborahtheJudge (Jul 20, 2010)

Keller has written something like that in his book, The Reason for God, as well and that gets mentioned in this review.
Ordained Servant Online

sorry... that wasn't the one... (on a side note, why do we have not one, but two reviews of this book? lol)

http://www.opc.org/review.html?review_id=193


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## Jack K (Jul 20, 2010)

Keller has ably defended the doctrine of God's wrath, including his eternal wrath against unbelievers, in many writings and sermons. I think we may miss this because he's also realized it's helpful, with post-modern audiences, to show that the animosity goes both ways, and to show that hell is not really a change from where we begin as objects of wrath but rather a foregone conclusion unless God intervenes. All this is consistent with Romans 1 and with reformed doctrine, even though it's presented a bit differently than we may be used to for the sake of Keller's audience.

I for one am glad that today's most prominent popular apologist is a man who knows and believes reformed theology.


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## goodnews (Jul 20, 2010)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> Is Hell about giving them over to sin as Romans 1 speaks of or a sinner's eternal punishment. Those are two different things. You can be given over to being sinful and working out your sin in Romans 1 and that has eternal consequences. But is that the same thing as the consequences of Eternal Punishment?



PC, I could be wrong, but I've always understood this a little bit differently. Are they two different things or simply two dispensations of the same thing? Romans 1 assumes that the light of nature (e.g. creation, conscience, providence, etc.)is still a reality making all w/o excuse. And God sends the sun and rain on the good and evil alike. So general grace is still a reality. Hell, on the other hand, seems to be a place where all those "buffers" to sin no longer exist and the full ramifications of sin are apparent w/o any hope of change. You might be saying the same thing only in a different way.

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Jack K said:


> Keller has ably defended the doctrine of God's wrath, including his eternal wrath against unbelievers, in many writings and sermons. I think we may miss this because he's also realized it's helpful, with post-modern audiences, to show that the animosity goes both ways, and to show that hell is not really a change from where we begin as objects of wrath but rather a foregone conclusion unless God intervenes. All this is consistent with Romans 1 and with reformed doctrine, even though it's presented a bit differently than we may be used to for the sake of Keller's audience.
> 
> I for one am glad that today's most prominent popular apologist is a man who knows and believes reformed theology.



Me too. I think when we listen to Keller we need to remember who he's preaching to ("enlightened" post-moderns) and what he's trying to accomplish.


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## Peairtach (Jul 20, 2010)

I haven't read Keller or even all of this thread or listened to the sermon, but I don't see any problem with the fact that in Hell people are given over to their sin and also punished for that with pains of soul and body.

As Shedd argues in his book on _Eternal _(Everlasting?)_ Punishment_ this is one reason why God is justified in punishing sinners eternally; because in Hell they will never come to an end of being sinners and of their sinning, thus justifying further punishment.

Sometimes preachers say "Hell is this...." or "Hell is that...." or "Heaven is this....." or "Heaven is that...." and they are only presenting _one or a few aspect(s)_ of their subject, whether it be Hell or Heaven.


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## Philip (Jul 20, 2010)

> Is Hell about giving them over to sin as Romans 1 speaks of or a sinner's eternal punishment.



Yes.


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## ColdSilverMoon (Jul 20, 2010)

Keller's view on hell is virtually identical to John Calvin's. Are we ready to call Calvin unorthodox?


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## toddpedlar (Jul 21, 2010)

One thing I think we have to remember in this is that much of our common societal view of hell stems from the wildly imaginitive (but almost entirely unfounded) images given by Dante Alighieri rather than the Scriptures. One also should remember that when a pastor preaches on Luke 16, the lake of fire and other such details will not be prominent (if appear at all) if the man is dealing in particular with the text at hand as his primary text.


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## T.A.G. (Jul 21, 2010)

the point of saying he was not orthodox was him making comments that seemed very much he believed hell was God leaving the sinner alone etc. rather than hell is eternity of God's hatred and wrath on sinners..


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## Philip (Jul 21, 2010)

T.A.G. said:


> the point of saying he was not orthodox was him making comments that seemed very much he believed hell was God leaving the sinner alone etc. rather than hell is eternity of God's hatred and wrath on sinners..


 
I'm not sure I could think of a worse manifestation of God's wrath than to be left alone with my sin without the aid of common or saving grace.


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## toddpedlar (Jul 21, 2010)

T.A.G. said:


> the point of saying he was not orthodox was him making comments that seemed very much he believed hell was God leaving the sinner alone etc. rather than hell is eternity of God's hatred and wrath on sinners..


 
Two things: 

1. I don't think he was exhausting his definition of hell, so to presume that in the words he used to discuss hell in this exposition is really unjust.
2. Are you really of the opinion that leaving a sinner fully in possession of his sin for eternity is not one way God can and will cause His wrath to fall on an individual? Do you really understand how grievous and awful such an eternity would be? 

Just because Keller did not speak of eternal hellfire licking at a person's feet forever, and demons tormenting the person with hot pitchforks does not mean he's unorthodox in his view of hell. There are MANY ways in which a sinner is tormented - and one very important one is to be left fully in the grips of his sin forever. THAT is surely an expression of true torment of soul. To argue otherwise is to evidence a lack of realization of how evil sin truly is.


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## goodnews (Jul 21, 2010)

toddpedlar said:


> T.A.G. said:
> 
> 
> > the point of saying he was not orthodox was him making comments that seemed very much he believed hell was God leaving the sinner alone etc. rather than hell is eternity of God's hatred and wrath on sinners..
> ...



Yes. Just as we don't exhaust our doctrine of grace on Ephesians 2:8 (although it is a fantastically succinct witness) we also don't exhaust our doctrine of hell on one verse. And, we would do well to remember that the Bible just doesn't give us any developed "abc's" of what hell is or isn't. We're left with some forboding metaphor, but nothing we can systematize, In my humble opinion. I'm guessing the HS has done this on purpose. That's probably why the WCF doesn't have much to say on the subject.


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## Peairtach (Jul 23, 2010)

*Quote from Tyler*


> Hell is not God's wrath abiding against them for all eternity but its the absence of God



There is often a problem with language here, because when we talk about God being present in ordinary Christian discourse, and even in the Scriptures often (e.g. Matthew 18 on Christ being present with the two or three witnesses in Church discipline) we mean that God is present to bless.

When we talk about God's absence in Hell we mean that he is not present to bless. But God's "absence" in Hell can also mean that He is present to curse. 

The "absence" of the Omnipresent God can mean the absence of His grace, and sometimes also the presence of His curse.

_E.g. And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Revelation 14:9-11, KJV) _


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