# Celebration of Easter and Christmas?



## Jon 316

I've just listened to Dr McMahon's Wild Boar Radio podcasts on Christmas and Easter. I have a few questions.

What is a Christian response to Christmas and Easter? 

Its interesting, I've always struggled with the idea of the incarnation and ressurection of Christ being embedded in a cultural practice which 1)came from paganism 2) was synchretized with Christianity 3) Has evolved into meaningless commercialism 4) Dominates the preaching schedule of the church in these dates. I have always hated this. Dont know why or how because it was before I read any puritam material. Perhaps it was just scriptural insight or Holy Spirit leading. 

In regards to Christmas, in practice, I have grown to enjoy this sason as a time for enjoying Christ and family during the holidays. Is this wrong?

Easter has not been an issue, other than having to endure ressurection sermons embedded in secular mindset, as I havnt, until now had kids. (Just now he is too young to eat chocolate eggs anyway!).

So, how do you respond to these festivals?


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## Tripel

Jon 316 said:


> In regards to Christmas, in practice, I have grown to enjoy this sason as a time for enjoying Christ and family during the holidays. Is this wrong?



Let's see...enjoying Christ and family....Nope, doesn't sound wrong to me.


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## Albatross

I hope this thread doesn't turn into a list making venture.......these activities are permissible, these activities are not.

Curious, nonetheless, on what will be written.


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## LawrenceU

Is that Amen Corner in your avatar?


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## Albatross

LawrenceU said:


> Is that Amen Corner in your avatar?



It is. Good eye, I couldn't use a larger picture.


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## LawrenceU

I love Augusta. Beautiful course, but it'll eat your lunch. Great picture, btw.


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## Albatross

I am pretty certain I would cry if I ever stepped on the grounds. I should really find the Masters theme song as a ring tone!


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## LawrenceU

I have to admit that I was overwhelmed the one time I played there. It was a very emotional experience. That didn't help my game one bit. I've never been able to go to the Masters, though.


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## DonP

I am not so concerned what people do in their homes. 

I just don't want us worshipping a tree in our church O Tannebaum O Tannenaum or a violation of the 2nd commandment image of baby Jesus as a worship aid. 

And for those who say but we don't worship them, if these things are not there to aid in my worship why are they in the church?

General beauty? Put a Tulip in there then. It is following the world no matter how you justify it. 
If it wasn't in our culture the faithful church would not be doing it. 

Jer 10:2-4

2 Thus says the LORD:

"*Do not learn the way of the Gentiles;*
Do not be dismayed at the signs of heaven,
For the Gentiles are dismayed at them. 
3 For the customs of the peoples are futile;
For one cuts a tree from the forest,
The work of the hands of the workman, with the ax. 
4 They decorate it with silver and gold;
They fasten it with nails and hammers 
So that it will not topple. NKJV

If you think this only pertains to pagan worship, how about this one?
1 John 2:15-17
Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world — the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life — is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever. NKJV

Rom 6:16
16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey,
NKJV


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## ww

I don't see an issue with celebrating either in the home but would not agree with either being celebrated by the Church in the Worship Service based on the RPW. Every Sunday celebrates Christ's Resurrection and their should be no greater emphasis on Law and Gospel for one particular Lord's Day than any other.


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## Jon 316

whitway said:


> I don't see an issue with celebrating either in the home but would not agree with either being celebrated by the Church in the Worship Service based on the RPW. Every Sunday celebrates Christ's Resurrection and their should be no greater emphasis on Law and Gospel than any other Sunday.



Do no reformed churches use Easter as a means of preaching the ressurection? Just curious.


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## matt01

Jon 316 said:


> What is a Christian response to Christmas and Easter?



I don't imagine you would be able to find one clear answer to this. Search the archives; there are threads on this topic, ad nauseam.


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## Tripel

whitway said:


> I don't see an issue with celebrating either in the home but would not agree with either being celebrated by the Church in the Worship Service based on the RPW. Every Sunday celebrates Christ's Resurrection and their should be no greater emphasis on Law and Gospel for one particular Lord's Day than any other.



What do you mean by these holidays being celebrated in the service? I don't see the problem with having an emphasis on something like the resurrection or incarnation...where all of the Scripture, preaching, and hymn-singing is in line with that theme.


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## ww

Jon 316 said:


> whitway said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see an issue with celebrating either in the home but would not agree with either being celebrated by the Church in the Worship Service based on the RPW. Every Sunday celebrates Christ's Resurrection and their should be no greater emphasis on Law and Gospel than any other Sunday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do no reformed churches use Easter as a means of preaching the ressurection? Just curious.
Click to expand...


Oh no there are quite a few that do since in many instances it is an opportunity to evangelize since unchurched folks will show up on that day but why should it be any different that day since every Sunday is a celebration of Christ's Resurrection.


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## Tripel

PeaceMaker said:


> I just don't want us worshipping a tree in our church O Tannebaum O Tannenaum or a violation of the 2nd commandment image of baby Jesus as a worship aid.



Arguing against the celebration of a holiday and arguing against violations of the 2nd commandment are different arguments. I've never seen a "baby Jesus" in our church, and we have never sung a song about a Christmas tree...but you better believe we celebrate Christmas.

-----Added 4/1/2009 at 04:04:44 EST-----



whitway said:


> Oh no there are quite a few that do since in many instances it is an opportunity to evangelize since unchurched folks will show up on that day but why should it be any different that day since every Sunday is a celebration of Christ's Resurrection.



I don't think this is a fair criticism. Do we celebrate Christ's resurrection every week? Yes. Is our sermon about the resurrection each week? No. And neither is yours.

Again, there is nothing wrong with placing special emphasis on an aspect of our faith on a particular Sunday. We have a Sunday (or two) every year where our service emphasizes missions or the Reformation. Same thing.


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## AThornquist

My family and church enjoy both in some fashion.  And I don't care to argue about it; this topic is beat over the head every time one of these holidays (no, _not_ as in holy days ) comes along. Regardless if this is "confessional," I hold to the NPW, so that is why my practice may differ. 

And I would be surprised if my family "follows the ways of the world" in how we celebrate Christmas and Easter. Does the world use the opportunity to have fellowship with family and other believers and to reflect on the work of the savior of the world? Probably not. Our observances are _not_ the same.


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## ww

Tripel said:


> whitway said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see an issue with celebrating either in the home but would not agree with either being celebrated by the Church in the Worship Service based on the RPW. Every Sunday celebrates Christ's Resurrection and their should be no greater emphasis on Law and Gospel for one particular Lord's Day than any other.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean by these holidays being celebrated in the service? I don't see the problem with having an emphasis on something like the resurrection or incarnation...where all of the Scripture, preaching, and hymn-singing is in line with that theme.
Click to expand...


Why that day? Why not do that on any other Sunday? I don't see it as inherently wrong of course because those themes are not only commendable but encouraged however most churches who do so go further with Easter egg hunts, etc.


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## Skyler

Christmas = time to get together w/friends & family, eat ham/turkey... in general, like Thanksgiving.

Easter = time to stock up on candy & chocolates the day after.


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## Tripel

whitway said:


> Why that day? Why not do that on any other Sunday? I don't see it as inherently wrong of course because those themes are not only commendable but encouraged however most churches who do so go further with Easter egg hunts, etc.



Why that day??? Because it makes the most sense. It's Easter. There's no requirement to do something special on that day, but I don't understand why you wouldn't. It's a holiday to place a special emphasis on the resurrection of Christ--I don't see why that is so bothering to people.

As to the egg hunts, I'm afraid I don't have a response. I've never seen anything like that done in my church or any other church. I'm not denying it happens, but it really has nothing to do with me since I'm not involved in it. I know of families in our church that do parties at their homes so that kids can "hunt eggs" but it's not tied to the church itself.


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## DonP

Tripel said:


> whitway said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see an issue with celebrating either in the home but would not agree with either being celebrated by the Church in the Worship Service based on the RPW. Every Sunday celebrates Christ's Resurrection and their should be no greater emphasis on Law and Gospel for one particular Lord's Day than any other.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean by these holidays being celebrated in the service? I don't see the problem with having an emphasis on something like the resurrection or incarnation...where all of the Scripture, preaching, and hymn-singing is in line with that theme.
Click to expand...


Well many see that the origin of a thing or at least if not the absolute origin, but a well established practice of a thing would have a role in deciding if it was acceptable for a Christian. 
ie Halloween. Now there are some people who choose to remain willfully ignorant to the fact there are witches today and they still celebrate Haloween as their holy day. Same with the Roman Catholic Christ's Mass. 
I doubt you would go to a mass. Yet we have brought this in. 

East Star was the pagan God of fertility worshiped widely. 

Some govt's Roman Empire or the Catholic church tried to merge all the pagan holy days and Christianize them so all could have the same holy day. 

Christians should reject this.

If your pastor held tot he Regulative Principle he would simply not do it because it is not prescribed in scripture to do it and we do not do anything in public worship that is not prescribed. 

There is recently a newer interpretation of the RP that some say they hold to, that is, if it is not forbidden then you are free to do it. 

This is no Reg Principle at all because we already don't do what is forbidden. 

So they really do not hold to the RP. 

So for them they must use conscience and for some apparently they have no problem learning the way of the heathen as long as they can find a way to Christianize it. 

What would resurrection day be exactly different from the Lord's day which we celebrate weekly now on the 1st day because He rose on the 1st day and we take the Supper as worship and remembrance of the Resurrection

We have no idea what day the incarnation was, so it seems misleading to just pick an arbitrary day to celebrate it. If God wanted us to He would have told us to or the day. Its kind of like why we do not have a Jesus on the cross. It is the resurrected Christ the Lord we worship. 

Now what does the world think of these days even today? 
And do we want them thinking the church approves of what they think? 

There are places we should seek to keep what we have tat is right and good and places to separate from the world. East Star and Christ's Mass and Halloween never belonged to the church and don't need to be kept. 

I wonder if as many professing christians were as concerned about abortion or prayer in school, and in the law of God staying in our judicial system, if we would be in the state we are in today. 
We kept christmas and let them steal the other. Note also the world lets us keep christmas and east star but they are taking the law and prayer out of govt. and politics


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## Herald

I am okay with preaching on the birth of Christ in December and His resurrection in March/April. Yes, I know those months are not historically accurate. Yes, I know there is no positive command in scripture to celebrate these holidays. But I have absolutely no pang of conscience in preaching the biblical account of Christ's birth, death and resurrection in the context of the gospel. 

I will not allow a Christmas tree in the church, Easter egg hunts, or chocolate rabbits. I will not forbid a member family from celebrating either holiday, mainly because there is not unanimous agreement among the elders. Even if there was unanimous agreement, I doubt a church-wide prohibition could be enforced.

Once again - personal conviction and conscience.


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## DonP

If you won't let the king call the day of synod why let the world cal the day you preach on the incarnation or resurrection. 

I have never heard a minister teach on the incarnation in June? 

These holidays are not the church's. They are pagan and worldly.
Had the church invented and adopted them then it might be ok to let hem influence when you preach on a subject.


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## Blueridge Believer

All of brother Matt's Wild Boar programs are great and worth the time to listen to in my opinion.


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## DonP

Herald said:


> I am okay with preaching on the birth of Christ in December and His resurrection in March/April. Yes, I know those months are not historically accurate. Yes, I know there is no positive command in scripture to celebrate these holidays. But I have absolutely no pang of conscience in preaching the biblical account of Christ's birth, death and resurrection in the context of the gospel.
> 
> I will not allow a Christmas tree in the church, Easter egg hunts, or chocolate rabbits. I will not forbid a member family from celebrating either holiday, mainly because there is not unanimous agreement among the elders. Even if there was unanimous agreement, I doubt a church-wide prohibition could be enforced.
> 
> Once again - personal conviction and conscience.



Great personal conviction. But we need the ministers to speak out and teach us how to come to a health conviction 

We need to have them be examples to us and point us away from the world and flesh to the spiritual. 

We need ministers to preach and warn us. Then maybe our convictions would be different. When the minister does nto teach against or warn about it naturally our conviction is that of the world we see around us. 

When the church goes silent against women ministers or homosexuality we accept it in the church too. So esp on things not as clearly forbidden we will follow the world without direction


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## Stomata leontôn

Jon 316 said:


> I've just listened to Dr McMahon's Wild Boar Radio podcasts on Christmas and Easter. I have a few questions.
> 
> What is a Christian response to Christmas and Easter?
> 
> Its interesting, I've always struggled with the idea of the incarnation and ressurection of Christ being embedded in a cultural practice which 1)came from paganism 2) was synchretized with Christianity


This popular belief is not supported in history.

The idea that Christian practices are pagan is not Reformed, but historically comes from secular humanist and radical Anabaptist beliefs that Christian practice should resemble any ordinary secular workday as much as possible -- and not be special nor foster fear and awe of the Lord. 

In secular humanism and radical anabaptism, anything smacking of specialness or awe was automatically dismissed as pagan or Roman. Any Christian practice that differed from ordinary secular life they assumed to be Roman. Since anabaptists believed that the church became wholly corrupt as soon as the ink dried on the New Testament, historiographic evidence from non-biblical but Apostolic and early church sources is ignored as a matter of faith.


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## Tripel

PeaceMaker said:


> So for them they must use conscience and for some apparently they have no problem learning the way of the heathen as long as they can find a way to Christianize it.



Leaning the way of the heathen? That is ridiculous. Singing songs about Christ's death and resurrection, reading passages about Christ's death and resurrection, and having a sermon centered on Christ's death and resurrection. Hmmm...sorry, but you're not convincing me that is anything heathen.



> What would resurrection day be exactly different from the Lord's day which we celebrate weekly now on the 1st day because He rose on the 1st day and we take the Supper as worship and remembrance of the Resurrection.



We do celebrate resurrection day every Sunday--that is why we meet on Sunday. But some of the those Sundays are not focused on the resurrection itself. Sometimes we're working through the Psalms or one of Paul's Epistles. Last week was Psalm 46, and it was glorious. 
But I love that every spring we have a week where everything in our worship is all about the resurrection. It's great.



> We have no idea what day the incarnation was, so it seems misleading to just pick an arbitrary day to celebrate it.



Nobody (that I know of) is claiming we are celebrating on the actual day. That's not the point. The point is to have a week set aside where the whole of the service is pointing to the resurrection. Same with Christmas.



> Now what does the world think of these days even today?
> And do we want them thinking the church approves of what they think?



The world thinks of these as purely secular. Easter bunnies and chocolate. I don't understand how a church service emphasizing the resurrection has anything to do with bunnies and candy.


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## Jon 316

Peter H said:


> Jon 316 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've just listened to Dr McMahon's Wild Boar Radio podcasts on Christmas and Easter. I have a few questions.
> 
> What is a Christian response to Christmas and Easter?
> 
> Its interesting, I've always struggled with the idea of the incarnation and ressurection of Christ being embedded in a cultural practice which 1)came from paganism 2) was synchretized with Christianity
> 
> 
> 
> This popular belief is not supported in history.
> 
> The idea that Christian practices are pagan is not Reformed, but historically comes from secular humanist and radical Anabaptist beliefs that Christian practice should resemble any ordinary secular workday as much as possible -- and not be special nor foster fear and awe of the Lord.
> 
> In secular humanism and radical anabaptism, anything smacking of specialness or awe was automatically dismissed as pagan or Roman. Any Christian practice that differed from ordinary secular life they assumed to be Roman. Since anabaptists believed that the church became wholly corrupt as soon as the ink dried on the New Testament, historiographic evidence from non-biblical but Apostolic and early church sources is ignored as a matter of faith.
Click to expand...


So what exactly are you saying?



> I am okay with preaching on the birth of Christ in December and His resurrection in March/April. Yes, I know those months are not historically accurate. Yes, I know there is no positive command in scripture to celebrate these holidays. But I have absolutely no pang of conscience in preaching the biblical account of Christ's birth, death and resurrection in the context of the gospel.
> 
> I will not allow a Christmas tree in the church, Easter egg hunts, or chocolate rabbits. I will not forbid a member family from celebrating either holiday, mainly because there is not unanimous agreement among the elders. Even if there was unanimous agreement, I doubt a church-wide prohibition could be enforced.
> 
> Once again - personal conviction and conscience.



What about a Christmas tree in the home?


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## Tripel

Jon 316 said:


> What about a Christmas tree in the home?



Are you suggesting there might be a problem with a Christmas tree in one's home???


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## Jon 316

Tripel said:


> Jon 316 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What about a Christmas tree in the home?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you suggesting there might be a problem with a Christmas tree in one's home???
Click to expand...


No. We have one in our home. I'm just asking if the pagan origins would make it questionable.


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## Tripel

I've heard reference to the pagan origins of these holidays before, but I've also heard it is all completely untrue. Can anyone provide some evidence one way or the other?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Skyler said:


> Christmas = time to get together w/friends & family, eat ham/turkey... in general, like Thanksgiving.
> 
> Easter = time to stock up on candy & chocolates the day after.



You can get $1.00 huge chocolate bunnies at Target the day after Ishtar. Great Stuff!!!


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## Herald

> What about a Christmas tree in the home?


Unless we are elevating the observance of these days, and their practices, to the level of church discipline, there is a limit on what we can require of individual members. I may decide not to have a Christmas tree in my home, and I may teach that is a form of idolatry; but what is the scope of my authority with the saints? Do I have pastoral authority to _order _them? This does not preclude teaching against the observance of these days; it limits what a pastor or elder can require of his members.


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## ww

Tripel said:


> whitway said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why that day? Why not do that on any other Sunday? I don't see it as inherently wrong of course because those themes are not only commendable but encouraged however most churches who do so go further with Easter egg hunts, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why that day??? Because it makes the most sense. It's Easter. There's no requirement to do something special on that day, but I don't understand why you wouldn't. It's a holiday to place a special emphasis on the resurrection of Christ--I don't see why that is so bothering to people.
> 
> As to the egg hunts, I'm afraid I don't have a response. I've never seen anything like that done in my church or any other church. I'm not denying it happens, but it really has nothing to do with me since I'm not involved in it. I know of families in our church that do parties at their homes so that kids can "hunt eggs" but it's not tied to the church itself.
Click to expand...


You say "It's Easter" but "Easter" is not commanded in Scripture for the Worship of the Church. I am probably more open to the theme of the Resurrection in Preaching, Hymns, etc, not as many issues there since that is the prerogative of the Pastor and not in violation of the RPW but I just don't see where the Church is to sanction Easter or Christmas for that matter during the Stated services of the Church. Does that mean folks can't get together outside of those times to enjoy the Holiday not at all. As far as Easter Egg Hunts, yes, been there done that, PCA church so maybe I'm jaded. 

For the record I celebrate Christmas and when we have children more than likely Easter, grew up celebrating it so I'm only arguing based on the RPW, if you advocate the RPW then where do you see Scripture commanding Easter or Christmas in Worship? Unless you advocate the Lutheran view if it is not forbidden it's ok?


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## NaphtaliPress

Reformed and Presbyterian rejection of holy days is on a number of levels, which one can see in _A Dispute Against the English Popish Ceremonies_ by Scottish Commissioner to the Westminster Assembly, George Gillespie. Pagan origin I don't think is an argument used against Easter; which came into the church by a certain private custom, for which Gillespie cites Socrates. Rather Gillespie focuses on the nature of superstiion, will worship and symbolizing with idolaters as well as what we now call the regulative principle of worship.
For various arguments see extracts from Gillespie about holy days here:
George Gillespie | Naphtali Press
For an overview of how holy days came into Presbyterianism see:
_The Religious Observance of Christmas and ‘Holy Days’ in American Presbyterianism
_Chris Coldwell | Naphtali Press


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## Herald

Blueridge Believer said:


> All of brother Matt's Wild Boar programs are great and worth the time to listen to in my opinion.



James, does your new church have a formal position on Christmas?


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## ww

NaphtaliPress said:


> Reformed and Presbyterian rejection of holy days is on a number of levels, which one can see in _A Dispute Against the English Popish Ceremonies_ by Scottish Commissioner to the Westminster Assembly, George Gillespie. Pagan origin I don't think is an argument used against Easter; which came into the church by a certain private custom, for which Gillespie cites Socrates. Rather Gillespie focuses on the nature of superstiion, will worship and symbolizing with idolaters as well as what we now call the regulative principle of worship.
> For various arguments see extracts from Gillespie about holy days here:
> George Gillespie | Naphtali Press
> For an overview of how holy days came into Presbyterianism see:
> _The Religious Observance of Christmas and ‘Holy Days’ in American Presbyterianism
> _Chris Coldwell | Naphtali Press




Thanks Chris, being lazy here by asking this question before reading but were there any Puritans or Westminster Divines or even Calvin for that matter who believed that it was in violation of the RPW but permissible to celebrate in homes or at other times in the Church outside of the Stated Services of the Church?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Herald said:


> Blueridge Believer said:
> 
> 
> 
> All of brother Matt's Wild Boar programs are great and worth the time to listen to in my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> James, does your new church have a formal position on Christmas?
Click to expand...


The ARP does not have an "official" position on "Holy Days". Though the denominational calendar does "recognize" Easter and Christmas.


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## Tripel

whitway said:


> ...so I'm only arguing based on the RPW, if you advocate the RPW then where do you see Scripture commanding Easter or Christmas in Worship?



I like to think I advocate the RPW, but a lot of people have differing interpretations of that. Scripture does not command us to use a bulletin, a microphone, or an organ, but I think they are all within the guidelines of the RPW. My reasoning for that is that those things are not elements of worship, but just tools for engaging in the worship elements that are commanded.

I guess what I'd like to know from you is how you see Easter being a part of worship that you object to. Like I said, our church celebrates Easter, but "Easter" is not an element of worship in our church. We acknowledge that it is Easter Sunday, and we acknowledge that it is Good Friday at our Good Friday service, but we don't do any "Eastery" things in our service besides focusing on the resurrection.


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## Herald

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Herald said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blueridge Believer said:
> 
> 
> 
> All of brother Matt's Wild Boar programs are great and worth the time to listen to in my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> James, does your new church have a formal position on Christmas?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The ARP does not have an "official" position on "Holy Days". Though the denominational calendar does "recognize" Easter and Christmas.
Click to expand...


Ben, so it comes down to the personal conviction of each member?


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## NaphtaliPress

I'm not sure this comes up in exactly the manner we deal with it today. My paper deals with the bifurcation of religious and non religious observance at least later as it developed in this country in Presbyterianism. 



whitway said:


> NaphtaliPress said:
> 
> 
> 
> Reformed and Presbyterian rejection of holy days is on a number of levels, which one can see in _A Dispute Against the English Popish Ceremonies_ by Scottish Commissioner to the Westminster Assembly, George Gillespie. Pagan origin I don't think is an argument used against Easter; which came into the church by a certain private custom, for which Gillespie cites Socrates. Rather Gillespie focuses on the nature of superstiion, will worship and symbolizing with idolaters as well as what we now call the regulative principle of worship.
> For various arguments see extracts from Gillespie about holy days here:
> George Gillespie | Naphtali Press
> For an overview of how holy days came into Presbyterianism see:
> _The Religious Observance of Christmas and ‘Holy Days’ in American Presbyterianism
> _Chris Coldwell | Naphtali Press
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Chris, being lazy here by asking this question before reading but were there any Puritans or Westminster Divines or even Calvin for that matter who believed that it was in violation of the RPW but permissible to celebrate in homes or at other times in the Church outside of the Stated Services of the Church?
Click to expand...


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Herald said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Herald said:
> 
> 
> 
> James, does your new church have a formal position on Christmas?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The ARP does not have an "official" position on "Holy Days". Though the denominational calendar does "recognize" Easter and Christmas.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ben, so it comes down to the personal conviction of each member?
Click to expand...


...and Congregation. I am unaware of any Presbytery position.


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## Herald

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Herald said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> 
> The ARP does not have an "official" position on "Holy Days". Though the denominational calendar does "recognize" Easter and Christmas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ben, so it comes down to the personal conviction of each member?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ...and Congregation. I am unaware of any Presbytery position.
Click to expand...


Interesting. Do you know of entire congregations that have a position on Easter and Christmas? If they do, are they willing to pursue church discipline against members who balk? I'm not being factious here, I genuinely want to know. How far can a pastor and elders "push" these issues re: formal authority?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

That is a question above my pay-grade. I'll let Marrow Man answer that question.


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## DonP

Tripel said:


> whitway said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...so I'm only arguing based on the RPW, if you advocate the RPW then where do you see Scripture commanding Easter or Christmas in Worship?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like to think I advocate the RPW, but a lot of people have differing interpretations of that. Scripture does not command us to use a bulletin, a microphone, or an organ, but I think they are all within the guidelines of the RPW. My reasoning for that is that those things are not elements of worship, but just tools for engaging in the worship elements that are commanded.
> 
> I guess what I'd like to know from you is how you see Easter being a part of worship that you object to. Like I said, our church celebrates Easter, but "Easter" is not an element of worship in our church. We acknowledge that it is Easter Sunday, and we acknowledge that it is Good Friday at our Good Friday service, but we don't do any "Eastery" things in our service besides focusing on the resurrection.
Click to expand...


*Are you comparing the acknowledgment of a holy day and having it direct the subject or the preaching and worship singing to a microphone or bulletin?? *

I wont get into the organ here as there are many threads and articles all over on instruments in worship


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## Tripel

PeaceMaker said:


> *Are you comparing the acknowledgment of a holy day and having it direct the subject or the preaching and worship singing to a microphone or bulletin?? *



Not exactly. First of all, I don't consider Easter a "holy day", nor does my church. Second, I mentioned bulletin and other things just to say that I want us to be careful when using "commanded by Scripture" because that applies more to worship elements and not to everything that makes an appearance in a worship service (at least, that's my opinion).



PeaceMaker said:


> I wont get into the organ here as there are many threads and articles all over on instruments in worship



I know, I know. I only mentioned that as an example of differing interpretations of not only Scripture, but also the RPW.


----------



## ww

Tripel said:


> whitway said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...so I'm only arguing based on the RPW, if you advocate the RPW then where do you see Scripture commanding Easter or Christmas in Worship?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like to think I advocate the RPW, but a lot of people have differing interpretations of that. Scripture does not command us to use a bulletin, a microphone, or an organ, but I think they are all within the guidelines of the RPW. My reasoning for that is that those things are not elements of worship, but just tools for engaging in the worship elements that are commanded.
> 
> I guess what I'd like to know from you is how you see Easter being a part of worship that you object to. Like I said, our church celebrates Easter, but "Easter" is not an element of worship in our church. We acknowledge that it is Easter Sunday, and we acknowledge that it is Good Friday at our Good Friday service, but we don't do any "Eastery" things in our service besides focusing on the resurrection.
Click to expand...


Daniel,

Those things mentioned are circumstances of Worship I would agree. By your church's acknowledgement of any other day than the Lord's Day based on the definition of the RPW found in *WCF 20:1 *the case could be made it is out of accord with it. However as you stated there are different variations of the RPW these days and as a result it causes confusion among folks even in the same denomination who move or want to worship in another Church of the same denomination. But that's another topic. In any event after reading your bio that would be non-issue for you. 

Even if we were to say that the Celebration of Easter in your church is confessional based on *WCF 20:5* where religious oaths, vows, solemn fastings, and thanksgivings upon special occasions are permissible these were to be spontaneous in response to the spiritual needs of the Church and are not included as *ordinary* elements of worship. 

In conclusion we will more than likely not be persuaded of each other's position based on the how we approach the RPW but I've enjoyed the dialogue.


----------



## Scott1

This is a topic that has been thoroughly debated on Puritan Board as recently as last holiday season.http://www.puritanboard.com/f103/not-celebrating-christmas-41057/

You may find a search of topics (upper right) helpful in evaluating this.

Particularly, Virginia Huguenot who was Puritan Board librarian references the article you site and interacts with that. You may find helpful carefully reading his thoughts and the board member interactions on the thread referenced above.


----------



## NaphtaliPress

Right; but we cannot if original intent means anything. The thanksgiving days noted in WCF 20 have a very clearly defined scope, for which see the Westminster Directory for Worship; I cover this in the article noted already above.


whitway said:


> Even if we were to say that the Celebration of Easter in your church is confessional based on *WCF 20:5* where religious oaths, vows, solemn fastings, and thanksgivings upon special occasions are permissible these were to be spontaneous in response to the spiritual needs of the Church and are not included as *ordinary* elements of worship.


----------



## DonP

whitway said:


> Daniel,
> 
> Those things mentioned are circumstances of Worship I would agree. By your church's acknowledgement of any other day than the Lord's Day based on the definition of the RPW found in *WCF 20:1 *the case could be made it is out of accord with it. However as you stated there are different variations of the RPW these days and as a result it causes confusion among folks even in the same denomination who move or want to worship in another Church of the same denomination. But that's another topic. In any event after reading your bio that would be non-issue for you.
> 
> Even if we were to say that the Celebration of Easter in your church is confessional based on *WCF 20:5* where religious oaths, vows, solemn fastings, and thanksgivings upon special occasions are permissible these were to be spontaneous in response to the spiritual needs of the Church and are not included as *ordinary* elements of worship.
> 
> .



I disagree with the 1st paragraph. Like the 2nd 

I would say there are not differing views of the RP. The RP is clear there are those who disagree with it and the church has failed to discipline them and tolerates them. This creates confusion


----------



## Gesetveemet

Jon 316 said:


> What is a Christian response to Christmas and Easter?




*THE SECOND HELVETIC CONFESSION
CHAPTER XXIV
Of Holy Days, 
Fasts and the Choice of Foods*​
THE FESTIVALS OF Christ AND THE SAINTS. Moreover, if in Christian liberty the churches religiously celebrate the memory of the Lord's nativity, circumcision, passion, resurrection, and of his ascension into heaven, and the sending of the Holy Spirit upon his disciples, we approve of it highly. but we do not approve of feasts instituted for men and for saints. Holy days have to do with the first Table of the Law and belong to God alone. Finally, holy days which have been instituted for the saints and which we have abolished, have much that is absurd and useless, and are not to be tolerated. In the meantime, we confess that the remembrance of saints, at a suitable time and place, is to be profitably commended to the people in sermons, and the holy examples of the saints set forth to be imitated by all.


----------



## DonP

That's why we like the Heidelberg and Belgic Confessions Better


----------



## Honor

what I don't understand is... why are are you arguing about Christmas and Easter when The Bible is silent about those (which I for the record am all for celebrating) but you don't get all up in arms (tons of threads about)about the Feast of Unleavened Bread which is _COMMANDED_ to be celebrated (in much detail as how to celebrate it properly). 

Ex.12:14 “This day shall be for you a memorial day, and you shall keep it as a feast to the Lord; throughout your generations, *as a statute forever*, you shall keep it as a feast. 15 Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall remove leaven out of your houses, for if anyone eats what is leavened, from the first day until the seventh day, that person shall be cut off from Israel. 16 On the first day you shall hold a holy assembly, and on the seventh day a holy assembly. No work shall be done on those days. But what everyone needs to eat, that alone may be prepared by you. 17 And you shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this very day I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt. Therefore you shall observe this day, throughout your generations, as a statute *forever.*


----------



## DonP

Honor said:


> what I don't understand is... why are are you arguing about Christmas and Easter when The Bible is silent about those (which I for the record am all for celebrating) but you don't get all up in arms (tons of threads about)about the Feast of Unleavened Bread which is _COMMANDED_ to be celebrated (in much detail as how to celebrate it properly).



Good point. I think it is because they recognize that all the OT holy days were tossed out since the reality has come. But they didn't think about the fact had christmas and easter been in the OT they would have been tossed out too. 

So they feel free to celebrate them. And if they can do them at home, then gradually the church which seems to follow the world more than the scriptures, just brought the custom in as members said we want a tree in our church, we want to decorate, we want to get Christ back in christmas, we want, we want. And the ministers gave in. 

And in some Arminian churches the pastors have even let the OT feast days and sabbaths back in. 
Sad. 

You do understand forever meant throughout your generations as the nation of Israel God was working in until He was done with Israel and disbanded it and exiled them?


----------



## Honor

> You do understand forever meant throughout your generations as the nation of Israel God was working in until He was done with Israel and disbanded it and exiled them?



the Hebrew lexicon says: long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world

a) ancient time, long time (of past)

b) (of future)

1) for ever, always

2) continuous existence, perpetual

3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity


so that's what I believe forever to mean


----------



## DonP

Honor said:


> You do understand forever meant throughout your generations as the nation of Israel God was working in until He was done with Israel and disbanded it and exiled them?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the Hebrew lexicon says: long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
> 
> a) ancient time, long time (of past)
> 
> b) (of future)
> 
> 1) for ever, always
> 
> 2) continuous existence, perpetual
> 
> 3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity
> 
> 
> so that's what I believe forever to mean
Click to expand...


So what? 

The dictionary definition is not how we interpret scripture. 

There is context also. Comparing scripture with scripture. etc. 

The dictionary definition is not always how a word is used 

And in this case, I think it meant long duration as the Lex says, and like the other qualifier in the sentence. Throughout their generations.


----------



## Honor

> The dictionary definition is not always how a word is used


so if there is a word that I don't know in Scripture I can't look it up in the hebrew or greek lexicon to see what the word really means??? How then am I to know that *your* definition of the word is to be correct?
I'm sorry but when I read the Bible I believe that EVERY WORD is true


----------



## DonP

Honor said:


> The dictionary definition is not always how a word is used
> 
> 
> 
> so if there is a word that I don't know in Scripture I can't look it up in the hebrew or greek lexicon to see what the word really means??? How then am I to know that *your* definition of the word is to be correct?
> I'm sorry but when I read the Bible I believe that EVERY WORD is true
Click to expand...


Every word is true. It is as the lex said. a. Long time. What is your problem? 

What you mean is you want it to mean what you want it to mean and which one of the definitions you want to pick. 

And no you don't have to believe I am right. This is why we study and search the scriptures and consult with a variety of people and pray to the Spirit to guide us into truth and convict us when we need to change. 

Every word is true but it does not necessarily mean you can read a dictionary and interpret properly. No. Else we would not need ministers of the word who are professionally trained, gifted and ordained to teach us. We could buy a dictionary and be done. 

The preacher is not just to remind us of the words so we can look them up. He is, or should be a gifted, educated, called and ordained minister of the word. To keep us away from mistakes like this


----------



## NaphtaliPress

The OT holy days are dead and buried being part of the ceremonial law; "our" holy days don't even have the aspect of having been once ordained by God! This is what one of the authors of the Westminster Confession of Faith had to say about this (about 22 years old when he wrote it).
Two other reasons the Apostle gives in this place against festival days; one (v. 17), What should we do with the shadow, when we have the body? Another (v. 20), Why should we be subject to human ordinances, since through Christ we are dead to them, and have nothing ado with them? Now, by the same reasons are all holidays to be condemned, as taking away Christian liberty; and so, that which the Apostle says does militate as well against them as against any other holidays. For whereas it might be thought that the Apostle does not condemn all holidays, because both he permits others to observe days (Rom. 14:5), and he himself also did observe one of the Jewish feasts (Acts 18:21), it is easily answered, that our holidays have no warrant from these places, except our opposites will say that they esteem their festival days holier than other days, and that they observe the Jewish festivities, neither of which they do acknowledge; and if they did, yet they must consider, that that which the Apostle either said or did here[about], is to be expounded and understood of bearing with the weak Jews, whom he permitted to esteem one day above another, and for whose cause he did, in his own practice, thus far apply himself to their infirmity at that time when they could not possibly be as yet fully and thoroughly instructed concerning Christian liberty, and the abrogation of the ceremonial law, because the gospel was as yet not fully propagated; and when the Mosaical rites were like a dead man not yet buried, as Augustine’s simile runs. So that all this can make nothing for holidays after the full promulgation of the gospel, and after that the Jewish ceremonies are not only dead, but also buried, and so deadly to be used by us. Hence it is, that the Apostle will not bear with the observation of days in Christian churches who have known God, as he speaks.
Part 2: Holy Days take away our Christian Liberty Proved Out of the Gospel (EPC 1.8, 37-45) | Naphtali Press
​


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian

I really wish the American churches would have adopted the Westminster Directory for Worship.


----------



## NaphtaliPress

Not to rub salt in a wound, but the ARP held to it as late as the early 1970s when they tossed it.


Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> I really wish the American churches would have adopted the Westminster Directory for Worship.


----------



## DonP

NaphtaliPress said:


> Not to rub salt in a wound, but the ARP held to it as late as the early 1970s when they tossed it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> 
> I really wish the American churches would have adopted the Westminster Directory for Worship.
Click to expand...


Amen brother. Maybe we should start a new strict subscription denom that holds to the Sum of Saving Knowledge and the Dir for Pub and Private worship 

Spo why did the ARP drop it do you know NaphtaliPress


----------



## Honor

I respectfully disagree but I will bow out now...


----------



## DonP

Honor said:


> I respectfully disagree but I will bow out now...



Does your church and pastor still celebrate the OT feasts? 

Keep studying we are all still learning and growing, that's why its good to be here and ask questions


----------



## ww

PeaceMaker said:


> whitway said:
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel,
> 
> Those things mentioned are circumstances of Worship I would agree. By your church's acknowledgement of any other day than the Lord's Day based on the definition of the RPW found in *WCF 20:1 *the case could be made it is out of accord with it. However as you stated there are different variations of the RPW these days and as a result it causes confusion among folks even in the same denomination who move or want to worship in another Church of the same denomination. But that's another topic. In any event after reading your bio that would be non-issue for you.
> 
> Even if we were to say that the Celebration of Easter in your church is confessional based on *WCF 20:5* where religious oaths, vows, solemn fastings, and thanksgivings upon special occasions are permissible these were to be spontaneous in response to the spiritual needs of the Church and are not included as *ordinary* elements of worship.
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree with the 1st paragraph. Like the 2nd
> 
> I would say there are not differing views of the RP. The RP is clear there are those who disagree with it and the church has failed to discipline them and tolerates them. This creates confusion
Click to expand...


I knew you would and expected it.


----------



## DonP

whitway said:


> PeaceMaker said:
> 
> 
> 
> I knew you would and expected it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does that mean we are like-minded?
Click to expand...


----------



## ww

PeaceMaker said:


> whitway said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PeaceMaker said:
> 
> 
> 
> I knew you would and expected it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does that mean we are like-minded?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But of course!
Click to expand...


----------



## Marrow Man

NaphtaliPress said:


> Not to rub salt in a wound, but the ARP held to it as late as the early 1970s when they tossed it.
> 
> 
> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> 
> I really wish the American churches would have adopted the Westminster Directory for Worship.
Click to expand...


Chris, I didn't think the ARP ever adopted the Directory.


----------



## Marrow Man

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> That is a question above my pay-grade. I'll let Marrow Man answer that question.



I'm not sure I exactly understand the question Bill is posing. Bill, are you asking if entire churches celebrate Easter/Christmas and do they discipline members who refuse to take part? If that is the question, then the answer is no.

There are churches that make a big deal out of Christmas and Easter. I suspect that is true for most denominations. And the main ARP office doesn't help matters by publishing that stupid calendar, which not only has "Easter" and "Christmas", but is set up for liturgical colors and seasons.

The old ARP book of worship had allowances for certain seasons of the year. The new one says nothing about the matter. It is also much more forward in recognizing the RPW. I'm not sure some folks (who still celebrate liturgical seasons) have connected the dots of this. We had an interesting discussion in our Session meeting a couple of weeks ago on this matter. My elders were confused by the fact that the RPW says one thing and the denominational calendar promotes something else. And who can blame them for being confused when the office behaves unconfessionally.

If the Lord so wills it, before my time is done, I aim to make sure that liturgical calendar goes the way that Mr. Gillespie describes of the OT holy days in Chris' posts above -- that is, they will be dead and buried.


----------



## NaphtaliPress

That may be; had to reread my own article.

The Associate Reformed Presbyterian constitution contained the wording of the Westminster Directory appendix against “Festival days, commonly called holy-days” until 1975.95​_95. Constitution of the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church _(1799, 1908; 1955). Compare with _The Book of Worship of the ARP Church, as Approved by the General Synod in 1975_. [↩]​


Marrow Man said:


> NaphtaliPress said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not to rub salt in a wound, but the ARP held to it as late as the early 1970s when they tossed it.
> 
> 
> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> 
> I really wish the American churches would have adopted the Westminster Directory for Worship.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Chris, I didn't think the ARP ever adopted the Directory.
Click to expand...


----------



## Marrow Man

NaphtaliPress said:


> That may be; had to reread my own article.
> 
> The Associate Reformed Presbyterian constitution contained the wording of the Westminster Directory appendix against “Festival days, commonly called holy-days” until 1975.95​_95. Constitution of the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church _(1799, 1908; 1955). Compare with _The Book of Worship of the ARP Church, as Approved by the General Synod in 1975_. [↩]​




Let me see if I can figure out what happened...

Somebody looks at the Book of Worship and figures out that it says something contrary to the way half the churches have been worshipping the past couple of decades. So, instead of actually reforming on the matter, they decide to edit it out of the BoW to conform it to the way things are currently being done. Because, you see, instead of looking to the Scriptures and our own standards, we've been looking at the mainline churches up and down the street and conducting our worship services based upon what the cesspools look like instead of the way we should be doing things. 

Of course, I'm just speculating, but every once in a while I like a good excuse to go on a rant. ​


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian




----------



## Marrow Man

In all fairness, I should point also point out that the ARP was headed down a very slippery slope of liberalism in the mid-1970s, which could have accounted for a lot. Thankfully, that ship was righted in the later part of that decade and the rest is history. And we do have a new Directory of Worship now (better than the old one).

Well, Benjamin, we may not have the Westminster Directory officially in our standards, but guess what I often consult when I need to plan some particular aspect of worship... 

I'm sure some folks think in our denomination think it odd when I say, "According to the holy institution, command, and example of our Lord Jesus Christ, I take this bread/cup and I give it unto you" during the distribution of the elements of the Lord's Supper. But no one's bothered to ask me where I get that language. I'd be happy to tell them!


----------



## NaphtaliPress

BTW, I plug this every so often but I note there is a slew of ARP Standards at abebooks.com including some good deals on the first edition of 1799, perhaps the most handsome edition of Presbyterian standards done in the US. Sure; they age; but big print, big thick volume. By T&J Swords (see my article series on the Swords in The Confessional Presbyterian, v2-3). Skip the 1908 jobby; that's just a fog or something. But the 1799s, 1827s, 1832s, 1850s, some good deals. $85 or $95 for the 1799 is very good.


----------



## PastorTim

Jon 316 said:


> I've just listened to Dr McMahon's Wild Boar Radio podcasts on Christmas and Easter. I have a few questions.
> 
> What is a Christian response to Christmas and Easter?
> 
> Its interesting, I've always struggled with the idea of the incarnation and ressurection of Christ being embedded in a cultural practice which 1)came from paganism 2) was synchretized with Christianity 3) Has evolved into meaningless commercialism 4) Dominates the preaching schedule of the church in these dates. I have always hated this. Dont know why or how because it was before I read any puritam material. Perhaps it was just scriptural insight or Holy Spirit leading.
> 
> In regards to Christmas, in practice, I have grown to enjoy this sason as a time for enjoying Christ and family during the holidays. Is this wrong?
> 
> Easter has not been an issue, other than having to endure ressurection sermons embedded in secular mindset, as I havnt, until now had kids. (Just now he is too young to eat chocolate eggs anyway!).
> 
> So, how do you respond to these festivals?



I encourage you to read "A Christmas Discourse" here


----------



## Herald

Marrow Man said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is a question above my pay-grade. I'll let Marrow Man answer that question.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure I exactly understand the question Bill is posing. Bill, are you asking if entire churches celebrate Easter/Christmas and do they discipline members who refuse to take part? If that is the question, then the answer is no.
> 
> There are churches that make a big deal out of Christmas and Easter. I suspect that is true for most denominations. And the main ARP office doesn't help matters by publishing that stupid calendar, which not only has "Easter" and "Christmas", but is set up for liturgical colors and seasons.
> 
> The old ARP book of worship had allowances for certain seasons of the year. The new one says nothing about the matter. It is also much more forward in recognizing the RPW. I'm not sure some folks (who still celebrate liturgical seasons) have connected the dots of this. We had an interesting discussion in our Session meeting a couple of weeks ago on this matter. My elders were confused by the fact that the RPW says one thing and the denominational calendar promotes something else. And who can blame them for being confused when the office behaves unconfessionally.
> 
> If the Lord so wills it, before my time is done, I aim to make sure that liturgical calendar goes the way that Mr. Gillespie describes of the OT holy days in Chris' posts above -- that is, they will be dead and buried.
Click to expand...


Tim,

My question was just the opposite. Are there churches who _do not recognize _Christmas and Easter, who discipline those members who do recognize those days? 

It is my contention that the observance of those holidays is a personal conviction rather than an ecclesiastical one. But for the sake of argument, let's say one of your sessions considers the observance of Easter to be sinful. Is it a sin worthy of church discipline, or is it left up to the individual to decide?


----------



## lshepler412

I don't believe it matters what the pagan origins are. We are not celebrating it that way.

-----Added 4/2/2009 at 09:53:08 EST-----

I agree, skip the saints!


----------



## Knoxienne

I'll be honest and say that it irks me at church when we're going through a book of the Bible and we have to interrupt it to go through some text the pastor wants to use for Advent or Lent. The incarnation and the resurrection are to be celebrated _every_ Sunday and meditated on constantly - not just during a certain time of year because of the Church Calendar. 

That being said, I've heard church leaders who do not believe in the celebration of Christmas and Easter imply (if not state outright) that people should not have Christmas trees/decorations in their homes or participate in parties, gift exchanges, egg hunts, etc with family, friends and neighbors. That's leaving the realm of the Church's authority and interfering with families. That's going too far.


----------



## Glenn Ferrell

I have no problem with individuals and families privately celebrating a cultural and seasonal festival. That’s no different than having a March Madness Party. I’d only say, don’t do these things on the Lord’s Day.

The Puritan and Westminster Regulative Principle of Worship is clearly defined in the post Westminster literature. Circumstances and elements are clearly defined. Pleading some personal interpretation of the RPW does not conform to confessional subscription.

Recognizing so called “holy” days in public worship cannot be a circumstance of worship as this does not contribute to or assist any warranted element of worship.

Certainly, it is the minister’s prerogative to pick the text of his sermon based upon particular pastoral needs. The Incarnation and Resurrection are commendable themes; both provide the background for all gospel preaching. 

Motive matters here. Preaching on the Incarnation near the winter solstice, because the world celebrates a papist “holy” day, and acknowledging such “festival” in the public worship itself, is incorporating an additional unwarranted element into the public worship of God. The same for preaching on the Resurrection on the first Sunday, on or after the first full moon following the spring equinox. 

As I preach through a gospel, or a series on the life of Christ, if the nativity narrative fell on or near the winter solstice, I wouldn’t refrain from preaching on it because of what the world is doing. Likewise for the Resurrection accounts if they fell soon after the spring equinox. However, if either of these fell in July or September or February, that’s when I’d preach on them.

If one is not following the Puritan Regulative Principle of Worship, don’t claim to subscribe to it. Find a different label for your principle and justify it from scripture.


----------



## ww

Glenn Ferrell said:


> I have no problem with individuals and families privately celebrating a cultural and seasonal festival. That’s no different than having a March Madness Party. I’d only say, don’t do these things on the Lord’s Day.
> 
> The Puritan and Westminster Regulative Principle of Worship is clearly defined in the post Westminster literature. Circumstances and elements are clearly defined. Pleading some personal interpretation of the RPW does not conform to confessional subscription.
> 
> Recognizing so called “holy” days in public worship cannot be a circumstance of worship as this does not contribute to or assist any warranted element of worship.
> 
> Certainly, it is the minister’s prerogative to pick the text of his sermon based upon particular pastoral needs. The Incarnation and Resurrection are commendable themes; both provide the background for all gospel preaching.
> 
> Motive matters here. Preaching on the Incarnation near the winter solstice, because the world celebrates a papist “holy” day, and acknowledging such “festival” in the public worship itself, is incorporating an additional unwarranted element into the public worship of God. The same for preaching on the Resurrection on the first Sunday, on or after the first full moon following the spring equinox.
> 
> As I preach through a gospel, or a series on the life of Christ, if the nativity narrative fell on or near the winter solstice, I wouldn’t refrain from preaching on it because of what the world is doing. Likewise for the Resurrection accounts if they fell soon after the spring equinox. However, if either of these fell in July or September or February, that’s when I’d preach on them.
> 
> If one is not following the Puritan Regulative Principle of Worship, don’t claim to subscribe to it. Find a different label for your principle and justify it from scripture.



Yeah what he said.


----------



## Marrow Man

Herald said:


> Tim,
> 
> My question was just the opposite. Are there churches who _do not recognize _Christmas and Easter, who discipline those members who do recognize those days?
> 
> It is my contention that the observance of those holidays is a personal conviction rather than an ecclesiastical one. But for the sake of argument, let's say one of your sessions considers the observance of Easter to be sinful. Is it a sin worthy of church discipline, or is it left up to the individual to decide?



In the ARP, I have never known this to happen. It might or might not happen in other Presbyterian denominations. My guess is it would vary according to the "strictness" (for lack of a better term) of the Sessions in the various churches.

As far as the extent to which a Session might discipline a member, I would tend to agree with Glenn's comments above. In my mindset, a Christmas celebration is a cultural gathering that differs very little from, say, celebrating the Fourth of July. Either of those days, however, can be dragged into the church and "Christianized" and then it becomes a huge issue. And that's when Sessions need to step in and be faithful to Scripture and the Confession.

The other layer on this is that, as someone once commented on the PB, the ARP (because of past problems) tends to be more "broadly evangelical" in some of these matters than strictly Reformed. Many of our members are grossly ignorant of doctrines like the RPW. This was a shock to me at first because the church of which I was a member (prior to ordination) was an organized church plant of which the minister (a member of the PB!) held to the RPW and was very faithful to the WCF. That does not happen everywhere. The tide is turning in many places in the ARP, but those things do not happen overnight. I am reminded of the things mentioned in Chris' posts above, where the Apostle Paul observed things like Passover not because these were to be perpetuated, but because the old administration was passing away and these things were about to be dead and buried. Hopefully, the older "broader evangelical" ways are passing away, but these take time and patience.

I have tried the big stick approach and that does not always work well. A gentleman in our congregation used an interesting illustration with me last week. He buys tropical fish, and he mentioned that they are used to warmer water than is usually found in most aquariums. You can get them adjusted to the cooler temp, but you must do so gradually, or they will not survive. But soon they will become adjusted with a little time and patience.


----------



## Blueridge Believer

Herald said:


> Blueridge Believer said:
> 
> 
> 
> All of brother Matt's Wild Boar programs are great and worth the time to listen to in my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> James, does your new church have a formal position on Christmas?
Click to expand...


Little is said about it. I believe it's left to conscience.


----------



## Herald

Tim, thank you.

Christmas has established some familial bonds in my family that go back centuries, mostly on my mother's side. As my own personal reformation has deepened, I am more and more distancing myself from the spiritual attachment to Christmas. The vestige of popery dies hard it seems. I preached on the incarnation last Christmas Eve. I will not do so again. I want to publicly thank a few brothers here who the Lord has used to change my mind; notably Josh, James Farley and Matthew Winzer. Thank you, brothers.

As far as the cultural aspect of the holiday; I'm not going to fall on my sword about presents, carols, a twinkling tree, egg nog and the Salvation Army bell ringers. If it brings the family together and creates goodwill, so be it. If I'm compelled into a moment of spiritual introspection, may it of the whole ministry of our Lord.


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## Albatross

Glenn Ferrell said:


> Recognizing so called “holy” days in public worship cannot be a circumstance of worship as this does not contribute to or assist any warranted element of worship.
> 
> 
> 
> Preaching on the Incarnation near the winter solstice, because the world celebrates a papist “holy” day, and acknowledging such “festival” in the public worship itself, is incorporating an additional unwarranted element into the public worship of God.



Would you mind defining "recognizing" and "acknowledging" and how those might be evidenced in the order of worship? While my church celebrates both Easter and Christmas around the predominant date there isn't an entry in the order of worship that delineates now is the time to practice Easter or Christmas.


----------



## Glenn Ferrell

Albatross said:


> Would you mind defining "recognizing" and "acknowledging" and how those might be evidenced in the order of worship? While my church celebrates both Easter and Christmas around the predominant date there isn't an entry in the order of worship that delineates now is the time to practice Easter or Christmas.



What do you mean by celebrate? I doubt churches had printed bulletins or order’s of worship at the time of the writing of the appendix to the Westminster Directory for the Public Worship of God.

Singing seasonal hymns (we won’t get into the issue of Psalmody vs. uninspired hymns here), scripture readings, and sermons following a seasonal theme dictated by a man-made religious calendar is giving public recognition to something not mandated by God in his word.

Add to that seasonal decorations, trees, manger scenes, wreathes, Easter lilies, advent candles, any type of candle not for purpose of lighting, and we have a host of unwarranted trappings in the worship of God.


----------



## Tripel

Glenn Ferrell said:


> Singing seasonal hymns (we won’t get into the issue of Psalmody vs. uninspired hymns here), scripture readings, and sermons following a seasonal theme dictated by a man-made religious calendar is giving public recognition to something not mandated by God in his word.



I'm not trying to get off track here, but just looking for some clarification. I assume that you are against having a worship service emphasizing missions once a year or a reformation themed service at the end of each october, correct?


----------



## Albatross

Glenn Ferrell said:


> Albatross said:
> 
> 
> 
> Would you mind defining "recognizing" and "acknowledging" and how those might be evidenced in the order of worship? While my church celebrates both Easter and Christmas around the predominant date there isn't an entry in the order of worship that delineates now is the time to practice Easter or Christmas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean by celebrate? I doubt churches had printed bulletins or order’s of worship at the time of the writing of the appendix to the Westminster Directory for the Public Worship of God.
> 
> Singing seasonal hymns (we won’t get into the issue of Psalmody vs. uninspired hymns here), scripture readings, and sermons following a seasonal theme dictated by a man-made religious calendar is giving public recognition to something not mandated by God in his word.
> 
> Add to that seasonal decorations, trees, manger scenes, wreathes, Easter lilies, advent candles, any type of candle not for purpose of lighting, and we have a host of unwarranted trappings in the worship of God.
Click to expand...


Take celebrate to mean emphasize. 

What do you mean by trappings? Is it that seasonal hymns, scripture readings and sermons used on a Sunday remotely close to the 25th of December or a Sunday in April can detract from the worship of God?

Another genuine question. With both the incarnation and resurrection happening on a specific day, unknown to all, is there a day that is allowed to emphasize either?


----------



## Rich Koster

I just can't get into Ishtar and the Christ-_mass_ any more. Knowledge of the origins and how polluted most celebrations are turns me off.


----------



## DonP

Tripel said:


> I'm not trying to get off track here, but just looking for some clarification. I assume that you are against having a worship service emphasizing missions once a year or a reformation themed service at the end of each october, correct?



I won't speak for Pastor Ferrell but I see nothing wrong with discussing the gospel ministry and evangelism. And if you want to host missionaries and have them speak after the worship service or have one of them preach the service fine. 
But to substitute for a worship service a bunch of slide shows, I would say there is a better time for it. After worship, mid week day of mission awareness etc. 
I am on the missions team at our church and we do it during the Sunday school class. Other than praying for them in worship unless we have one come preach. 
The elders did have an indian chief who we believed had been converted through our missionary speak before the worship service that the missionary preached at. He was expressing thanks for our service to them and how much the mission was helping. 
The excuse is the people won't all stay after church for it or come some other time etc. A poor reason in my mind.


----------



## Jon Peters

Glenn Ferrell said:


> I have no problem with individuals and families privately celebrating a cultural and seasonal festival. That’s no different than having a March Madness Party. I’d only say, don’t do these things on the Lord’s Day.
> 
> The Puritan and Westminster Regulative Principle of Worship is clearly defined in the post Westminster literature. Circumstances and elements are clearly defined. Pleading some personal interpretation of the RPW does not conform to confessional subscription.
> 
> Recognizing so called “holy” days in public worship cannot be a circumstance of worship as this does not contribute to or assist any warranted element of worship.
> 
> Certainly, it is the minister’s prerogative to pick the text of his sermon based upon particular pastoral needs. The Incarnation and Resurrection are commendable themes; both provide the background for all gospel preaching.
> 
> Motive matters here. Preaching on the Incarnation near the winter solstice, because the world celebrates a papist “holy” day, and acknowledging such “festival” in the public worship itself, is incorporating an additional unwarranted element into the public worship of God. The same for preaching on the Resurrection on the first Sunday, on or after the first full moon following the spring equinox.
> 
> As I preach through a gospel, or a series on the life of Christ, if the nativity narrative fell on or near the winter solstice, I wouldn’t refrain from preaching on it because of what the world is doing. Likewise for the Resurrection accounts if they fell soon after the spring equinox. However, if either of these fell in July or September or February, that’s when I’d preach on them.
> 
> If one is not following the Puritan Regulative Principle of Worship, don’t claim to subscribe to it. Find a different label for your principle and justify it from scripture.



So the secular world could effectively ban the preaching of the resurrection and/or the incarnation by proclaiming the celebration of Christmas and Easter to be year round?

It seems to me that by eliminating from the calendar certain days when particular subjects can be preached is allowing the world to dictate the terms of our worship, at least to some degree. Is this consistent with the RPW?


----------



## DonP

Jon Peters said:


> So the secular world could effectively ban the preaching of the resurrection and/or the incarnation by proclaiming the celebration of Christmas and Easter to be year round?
> 
> It seems to me that by eliminating from the calendar certain days when particular subjects can be preached is allowing the world to dictate the terms of our worship, at least to some degree. Is this consistent with the RPW?



Not at all. 
He can preach on the incarnation any time during the year, or on the resurrection any month. 
The point is the secular world should have no impact on the preaching at all, other than should a pastor decide it was in the best interest of the members to address some current event in the world to warn the flock about. 

Like I think it might be good in Dec to preach against getting involved in the world and sucked into the Dec holiday to over spend and give each other gifts and help them think of ways how this might instead be avoided by giving to missionaries who are helping to tell people about Jesus, etc.. 

It always bugged me those who want to put Christ back in Christ-mass why they would give each other gifts instead of Him. 
How self centered? Do you think that tradition of giving ourselves gifts instead of Christ was a Christian idea?
Who else's b-day do we celebrate that way??

Is this even sensible??


----------



## Grace Alone

PeaceMaker said:


> Jon Peters said:
> 
> 
> 
> So the secular world could effectively ban the preaching of the resurrection and/or the incarnation by proclaiming the celebration of Christmas and Easter to be year round?
> 
> It seems to me that by eliminating from the calendar certain days when particular subjects can be preached is allowing the world to dictate the terms of our worship, at least to some degree. Is this consistent with the RPW?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not at all.
> He can preach on the incarnation any time during the year, or on the resurrection any month.
> The point is the secular world should have no impact on the preaching at all, other than should a pastor decide it was in the best interest of the members to address some current event in the world to warn the flock about.
> 
> Like I think it might be good in Dec to preach against getting involved in the world and sucked into the Dec holiday to over spend and give each other gifts and help them think of ways how this might instead be avoided by giving to missionaries who are helping to tell people about Jesus, etc..
> 
> It always bugged me those who want to put Christ back in Christ-mass why they would give each other gifts instead of Him.
> How self centered? Do you think that tradition of giving ourselves gifts instead of Christ was a Christian idea?Who else's b-day do we celebrate that way??
> 
> Is this even sensible??
Click to expand...


Amen! I've been saying this for a long, long time, but it is not a popular sentiment.


----------



## DonP

Grace Alone said:


> Amen! I've been saying this for a long, long time, but it is not a popular sentiment.



Praise God sister. We can be unpopular together!! 

I think we have to be careful and extra gentle and patient with people in these very emotionally charged areas though. 

It took God a while to straighten me out on a lot of things and I am sureI am not straight on others still!! 

Praise God for His mercy on us all


----------



## Jon Peters

PeaceMaker said:


> Jon Peters said:
> 
> 
> 
> So the secular world could effectively ban the preaching of the resurrection and/or the incarnation by proclaiming the celebration of Christmas and Easter to be year round?
> 
> It seems to me that by eliminating from the calendar certain days when particular subjects can be preached is allowing the world to dictate the terms of our worship, at least to some degree. Is this consistent with the RPW?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not at all.
> He can preach on the incarnation any time during the year, or on the resurrection any month.
> The point is the secular world should have no impact on the preaching at all, other than should a pastor decide it was in the best interest of the members to address some current event in the world to warn the flock about.
> 
> Like I think it might be good in Dec to preach against getting involved in the world and sucked into the Dec holiday to over spend and give each other gifts and help them think of ways how this might instead be avoided by giving to missionaries who are helping to tell people about Jesus, etc..
> 
> It always bugged me those who want to put Christ back in Christ-mass why they would give each other gifts instead of Him.
> How self centered? Do you think that tradition of giving ourselves gifts instead of Christ was a Christian idea?
> Who else's b-day do we celebrate that way??
> 
> Is this even sensible??
Click to expand...


You keep referring to it as Christ-Mass, as if those Reformed believers that acknowledge and participate in Christmas actually celebrate the mass. Using language like that, especially on a forum like this, is unnecessary and frankly, kind of a cheap shot. And save the bandwidth, we all know where the word comes from.

Are secular ideas always bad ideas?

-----Added 4/3/2009 at 11:42:10 EST-----



PeaceMaker said:


> Grace Alone said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amen! I've been saying this for a long, long time, but it is not a popular sentiment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Praise God sister. We can be unpopular together!!
> 
> I think we have to be careful and extra gentle and patient with people in these very emotionally charged areas though.
> 
> It took God a while to straighten me out on a lot of things and I am sureI am not straight on others still!!
> 
> Praise God for His mercy on us all
Click to expand...


Those of us who disagree with your position will try and be extra gentle and patient with you as well.


----------



## Romans922

Secular ways are the ways of the world are they not? So wouldn't they be 'bad'? 



Jon Peters said:


> PeaceMaker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jon Peters said:
> 
> 
> 
> So the secular world could effectively ban the preaching of the resurrection and/or the incarnation by proclaiming the celebration of Christmas and Easter to be year round?
> 
> It seems to me that by eliminating from the calendar certain days when particular subjects can be preached is allowing the world to dictate the terms of our worship, at least to some degree. Is this consistent with the RPW?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not at all.
> He can preach on the incarnation any time during the year, or on the resurrection any month.
> The point is the secular world should have no impact on the preaching at all, other than should a pastor decide it was in the best interest of the members to address some current event in the world to warn the flock about.
> 
> Like I think it might be good in Dec to preach against getting involved in the world and sucked into the Dec holiday to over spend and give each other gifts and help them think of ways how this might instead be avoided by giving to missionaries who are helping to tell people about Jesus, etc..
> 
> It always bugged me those who want to put Christ back in Christ-mass why they would give each other gifts instead of Him.
> How self centered? Do you think that tradition of giving ourselves gifts instead of Christ was a Christian idea?
> Who else's b-day do we celebrate that way??
> 
> Is this even sensible??
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You keep referring to it as Christ-Mass, as if those Reformed believers that acknowledge and participate in Christmas actually celebrate the mass. Using language like that, especially on a forum like this, is unnecessary and frankly, kind of a cheap shot. And save the bandwidth, we all know where the word comes from.
> 
> *Are secular ideas always bad ideas?*
> 
> -----Added 4/3/2009 at 11:42:10 EST-----
> 
> 
> 
> PeaceMaker said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Grace Alone said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amen! I've been saying this for a long, long time, but it is not a popular sentiment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Praise God sister. We can be unpopular together!!
> 
> I think we have to be careful and extra gentle and patient with people in these very emotionally charged areas though.
> 
> It took God a while to straighten me out on a lot of things and I am sureI am not straight on others still!!
> 
> Praise God for His mercy on us all
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Those of us who disagree with your position will try and be extra gentle and patient with you as well.
Click to expand...


----------



## DonP

Jon Peters said:


> You keep referring to it as Christ-Mass,
> 
> Those of us who disagree with your position will try and be extra gentle and patient with you as well.



No I refer to it distinctly as 

Christ-mass. 

Just as I use the term baptist and presbyterian when speaking of a style of belief or govt as opposed to a denominational name like Presbyterian Church of America. 
Or christian, for ones who call themselves such yet have no outward profession consistent with being a Christian. 

I think as professing Christian you would allow me the freedom to do this. Do I not have that freedom? As you do to refer to it as you wish. 

I do not insult you for referring to it differently. Or take it as an insult or dig, that will be for God to judge.
Does the world or majority rule in this, as though you are right and I am wrong and making a dig? 

And no, many have never heard that is was a special mass or anything of its roots, some even deny it. And yes even on this board. 

But I do not do it to point that out, as much as to not acknowledge it by the other name to give it any credibility. I choose not to acknowledge it just as I usually refer to Hallows Eve by that terms. And East Star by that term. 

I hold to the Confessional view of the RP which forbids such things in the church worship. I care less what people do in their homes. 
Thanks,


----------



## CNJ

In my husband's family someone has Thanksgiving, another family has Christmas and we have Easter. 

We have a cross in our front yard with a purple cloth until just before the Easter noon meal when the granddaughter exchanges the purple cloth for the white cloth to symbolize the grave clothes. Usually a pastor at the table reads Luke 24:30,31 _When He was at the table with them, He took bread and blessed and broke it, and gave it to them. And their eyes were opened and they recognized Him._ and then the pastor prays before the meal.


Now the Granddaughter enjoys Easter eggs and so we have an Easter egg hunt for her in the backyard to accommodate her parents. Her mother said she likes chocolate and so I stuffed plastic eggs with chocolate this year. They are waiting in the freezer and her parents hide them in our backyard just before she goes outside. At age seven she no long believes in the Easter bunny and her own pet bunny certainly doesn't lay eggs anyway.

But the cross tradition I started is a visual reminded for a visual/spacial granddaughter and the eggs are just fun. She says that Christmas and Easter are her favorite holidays.


----------



## Albatross

Romans922 said:


> Secular ways are the ways of the world are they not? So wouldn't they be 'bad'?
> 
> 
> 
> Jon Peters said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PeaceMaker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not at all.
> He can preach on the incarnation any time during the year, or on the resurrection any month.
> The point is the secular world should have no impact on the preaching at all, other than should a pastor decide it was in the best interest of the members to address some current event in the world to warn the flock about.
> 
> Like I think it might be good in Dec to preach against getting involved in the world and sucked into the Dec holiday to over spend and give each other gifts and help them think of ways how this might instead be avoided by giving to missionaries who are helping to tell people about Jesus, etc..
> 
> It always bugged me those who want to put Christ back in Christ-mass why they would give each other gifts instead of Him.
> How self centered? Do you think that tradition of giving ourselves gifts instead of Christ was a Christian idea?
> Who else's b-day do we celebrate that way??
> 
> Is this even sensible??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You keep referring to it as Christ-Mass, as if those Reformed believers that acknowledge and participate in Christmas actually celebrate the mass. Using language like that, especially on a forum like this, is unnecessary and frankly, kind of a cheap shot. And save the bandwidth, we all know where the word comes from.
> 
> *Are secular ideas always bad ideas?*
> 
> -----Added 4/3/2009 at 11:42:10 EST-----
> 
> 
> 
> PeaceMaker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Praise God sister. We can be unpopular together!!
> 
> I think we have to be careful and extra gentle and patient with people in these very emotionally charged areas though.
> 
> It took God a while to straighten me out on a lot of things and I am sureI am not straight on others still!!
> 
> Praise God for His mercy on us all
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Those of us who disagree with your position will try and be extra gentle and patient with you as well.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


The term ideas, not ways, was used.


----------



## Romans922

Don't secular ideas come from secular people, who are totally depraved? Apart from God nothing they do/think/say is good...


----------



## DonP

Albatross said:


> The term ideas, not ways, was used.



I don't understand  

If it was about my part in the post, I meant a minister can preach on anything in scripture any day. 

He should not be conditioned by the ways or ideas of the world as to what he should preach on. But may choose to address a current event in the world as scripture speaks to the issue.


----------



## OPC'n

I celebrate x-mass as a family get together where we give gifts, good food, and beautiful decorations. I love x-mass! I don't even know when Easter is except that it's in April...right?


----------



## MrMerlin777




----------



## ww

MrMerlin777 said:


>



 yeah


----------



## Whitefield

whitway said:


> MrMerlin777 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yeah
Click to expand...


Time for the glue factory.


----------



## Glenn Ferrell

Tripel said:


> Glenn Ferrell said:
> 
> 
> 
> Singing seasonal hymns (we won’t get into the issue of Psalmody vs. uninspired hymns here), scripture readings, and sermons following a seasonal theme dictated by a man-made religious calendar is giving public recognition to something not mandated by God in his word.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not trying to get off track here, but just looking for some clarification. I assume that you are against having a worship service emphasizing missions once a year or a reformation themed service at the end of each october, correct?
Click to expand...


I have no problem with regular preaching on particular themes such as missions or Reformation gospel truths based upon pastoral concerns and providential circumstances.

Eulogizing the Reformers as if they were canonized saints, and mission reports, perhaps given by women missionaries, have no place in the public worship. Lectures and mission talks are better outside of public worship, though this does not preclude a visiting male missionary or lecturer from expositing the word, perhaps on a mission or soteriological theme, in the public worship.

A pastor should not be tied to a prescribed day in his choice of text or sermon. Such takes from him his pastoral prerogative.


----------



## Glenn Ferrell

Albatross said:


> Take celebrate to mean emphasize.
> 
> What do you mean by trappings?



Something not a warranted element of worship, not qualifying as a circumstance of worship, made a preeminent and determining factor in public worship.



> Is it that seasonal hymns, scripture readings and sermons used on a Sunday remotely close to the 25th of December or a Sunday in April can detract from the worship of God?



If the systematic and continuous exposition of scripture should providentially have one preaching on the Incarnation in late December, or the Resurrection soon after the spring equinox, such is not determined by external and unwarranted factors. The pastor has the prerogative to preach on any part of scripture or scriptural theme as he may be led by providential circumstances and pastoral wisdom, though he should take care not to reinforce superstition, giving more importance to man made “holy” days, or peoples tendency to think they are more religious or meritorious because they observe such.

I’ve heard, when G. I. Williamson was serving a Reformed church in New Zealand, he was requested by the elders to preach a Christmas or Easter (I don’t remember which) sermon. It would have been within his powers of office to refuse to do so. However, with pastoral insight, he made use of the providential circumstances to teach basic biblical principles. He submitted to their request and preached on why they should not celebrate “holy” days.

When December 25th fell on the Lord’s Day, I have been known to preach an anti-Christ-mass sermon, explaining why we did not celebrate man made “holy” days.



> Another genuine question. With both the incarnation and resurrection happening on a specific day, unknown to all, is there a day that is allowed to emphasize either?



As both are basic to the gospel, they may be preached on any Lord’s Day, and emphasized when pastorally and providentially indicated as helpful, and not increasing superstition in regards to man invented religion.

All worship and preaching is to be God pleasing and glorifying, not people pleasing and man glorifying.

-----Added 4/3/2009 at 02:22:47 EST-----



MrMerlin777 said:


>


Why? When there are questions I've not yet answered.

If you've learned all you need to know on the subject, there is no requirement to keep reading the thread.

-----Added 4/3/2009 at 02:40:03 EST-----



Jon Peters said:


> Glenn Ferrell said:
> 
> 
> 
> Motive matters here. Preaching on the Incarnation near the winter solstice, because the world celebrates a papist “holy” day, and acknowledging such “festival” in the public worship itself, is incorporating an additional unwarranted element into the public worship of God. The same for preaching on the Resurrection on the first Sunday, on or after the first full moon following the spring equinox.
> 
> As I preach through a gospel, or a series on the life of Christ, if the nativity narrative fell on or near the winter solstice, I wouldn’t refrain from preaching on it because of what the world is doing. Likewise for the Resurrection accounts if they fell soon after the spring equinox. However, if either of these fell in July or September or February, that’s when I’d preach on them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So the secular world could effectively ban the preaching of the resurrection and/or the incarnation by proclaiming the celebration of Christmas and Easter to be year round?
Click to expand...


The secular world would be in accord with scriptural warrant, not making any day a “holy” day, but recognizing the Incarnation and Resurrection appropriate and underlying truths in all Christian worship and preaching.

Of course, a pastor should resist anyone prescribing what he should preach on; though pastoral concern would dictate his taking the special requests of congregation and elders into consideration, as long as it did not involve compromise of scriptural truth, or encouragement of superstition.



> It seems to me that by eliminating from the calendar certain days when particular subjects can be preached is allowing the world to dictate the terms of our worship, at least to some degree. Is this consistent with the RPW?



Nothing I’ve said in this thread would prohibit preaching on any part of scripture on any Lord’s Day; it merely maintains the liberty of pastors to preach as scripture, the Spirt’s leading, pastoral concern, providential circumstances, and wise consideration of how superstitious and man made traditions make void the word of God, may direct.

___________________________


Now, I’ve answered all outstanding questions directed to me. I have no need to beat a dead mule; but to respond to all genuine requests for clarification of what I’ve previously said.


----------

