# Bible Presbyterian Church



## Josiah (Nov 27, 2007)

For some time now i have been intrigued by American Presbyterian history and how past developments have shaped where we are now. I have read D.G. Hart and John Muethers book _Fighting The Good fight_ and have found myself with more questions than the book has answers concerning the Bible Presbyterian Church. I have searched their website, i have read historical essays in _WRS JOURNAL_ (their denom's seminary) on Presbyterian history, but much of what they have written seems more anecdotal than i was hoping for. I have also searched the threads on Puritan board but have come up empty handed. For that reason i decided to post a new thread in hopes of gaining answers to my questions. My questions are as follows: 1) What Caused the last two major splits within the BPC (BPC/EPC split of 55-56 and the BPC/APC split of79), 2) What is the current state of the Bible Presbyterian Church, 3) What is the current ecclesiastical relationship, if any, with Orthodox Presbyterian Church and or other NAPARC churches, 4) Where do you see the BPC heading in the years to come? 

Thank you for your time


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## Coram Deo (Nov 27, 2007)

I have alittle understanding of the bible presbyterian church since I have an uncle in-law about to be installed at Carl McIntyre church in Collinswood (Long Story)... 

Anyway I can answer number 2 and 4... They do not seem to be in a pretty good state right now... They seem to be dying... The church in Collinswood was made to sit hundreds and only 40 or so people attend mostly over the age of 70. They are fundamentalist and even some are dispensational.. They view alot of external things as sins, all wine, playing cards, movie theaters, etc.... I think for the future they are heading for denominational death, maybe even within the next decade.... I also think they know it but that is another matter I would prefer not to share across the net....




Josiah said:


> For some time now i have been intrigued by American Presbyterian history and how past developments have shaped where we are now. I have read D.G. Hart and John Muethers book _Fighting The Good fight_ and have found myself with more questions than the book has answers concerning the Bible Presbyterian Church. I have searched their website, i have read historical essays in _WRS JOURNAL_ (their denom's seminary) on Presbyterian history, but much of what they have written seems more anecdotal than i was hoping for. I have also searched the threads on Puritan board but have come up empty handed. For that reason i decided to post a new thread in hopes of gaining answers to my questions. My questions are as follows: 1) What Caused the last two major splits within the BPC (BPC/EPC split of 55-56 and the BPC/APC split of79), 2) What is the current state of the Bible Presbyterian Church, 3) What is the current ecclesiastical relationship, if any, with Orthodox Presbyterian Church and or other NAPARC churches, 4) Where do you see the BPC heading in the years to come?
> 
> Thank you for your time


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## Pilgrim (Nov 27, 2007)

I think there have been some recent talks with the OPC, maybe about possibly establishing fraternal relations but I don't think it's gotten to that point yet.

Francis Schaeffer was involved in the BPC/EPC split but I do not know the particulars. The EPC (not the same as today's EPC) merged with another church to become the RPCES and eventually was absorbed into the PCA in 1982. 

According to the APC wiki article the BPC/APC split was over similar issues as the OPC/BPC split, but given the APC's distinctives, evidently this is true only in the general sense that they thought that the BPC was more committed to fundamentalism than to Calvinism.


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## Barnpreacher (Nov 27, 2007)

I had the privilege of speaking at Collingswood BPC last year. They are a fine group of people. Most of them are rather older in age as Michael mentioned. I think this is the state of other BPC's as well. They are rather fundamental, but I don't think anywhere as radical as when McIntire was running the show. They are covenantal, but they are also pre-mill. I think that is where they get the "dispensational" tag. They subscribe to the WCF, but they have amended the section on eschatology.

They do not, as I know, have any ecclesiastical ties with the OPC or any other Presbyterian churches.


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## Coram Deo (Nov 27, 2007)

They have no idea what they are in for...







Barnpreacher said:


> I had the privilege of speaking at Collingswood BPC last year. They are a fine group of people. Most of them are rather older in age as Michael mentioned. I think this is the state of other BPC's as well. They are rather fundamental, but I don't think anywhere as radical as when McIntire was running the show. They are covenantal, but they are also pre-mill. I think that is where they get the "dispensational" tag. They subscribe to the WCF, but they have amended the section on eschatology.
> 
> They do not, as I know, have any ecclesiastical ties with the OPC or any other Presbyterian churches.


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## VictorBravo (Nov 27, 2007)

Barnpreacher said:


> I had the privilege of speaking at Collingswood BPC last year. They are a fine group of people. Most of them are rather older in age as Michael mentioned. I think this is the state of other BPC's as well. They are rather fundamental, but I don't think anywhere as radical as when McIntire was running the show. They are covenantal, but they are also pre-mill. I think that is where they get the "dispensational" tag. They subscribe to the WCF, but they have amended the section on eschatology.
> 
> They do not, as I know, have any ecclesiastical ties with the OPC or any other Presbyterian churches.



I'll add that you don't have to be premil. I know BP pastors who are amil and postmil. I also know the president of WRS seminary in Tacoma and another professor-even took some classes there. They are faithful and fully reformed. It is a blessing to have such a resource in my mid-sized city. I pray they persevere.


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## Barnpreacher (Nov 27, 2007)

Michael,

My prayer is that the new pastor is a blessing for those folks in Collingswood. They hold a special place in my heart.


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## Coram Deo (Nov 27, 2007)

Let's take this into Private Message.....


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## NaphtaliPress (Nov 27, 2007)

This is a public forum; so consider if some of the comments above might better be edited.


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## Barnpreacher (Nov 27, 2007)

victorbravo said:


> I'll add that you don't have to be premil. I know BP pastors who are amil and postmil. I also know the president of WRS seminary in Tacoma and another professor-even took some classes there. They are faithful and fully reformed. It is a blessing to have such a resource in my mid-sized city. I pray they persevere.



Thanks, Vic. I know that Collingswood had amended the WCF in favor of pre-mill eschatology. I just assumed that was true of all BPC's. I'm with you in praying for their perseverance.


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## VictorBravo (Nov 27, 2007)

Barnpreacher said:


> victorbravo said:
> 
> 
> > I'll add that you don't have to be premil. I know BP pastors who are amil and postmil. I also know the president of WRS seminary in Tacoma and another professor-even took some classes there. They are faithful and fully reformed. It is a blessing to have such a resource in my mid-sized city. I pray they persevere.
> ...



I think it is true of all BPCs, but they allow for exceptions on eschatology.


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## Kevin (Nov 27, 2007)

We have a BP minister here on the board. Perhaps he could fill us in...

Ahem, Pastor Dyck?


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## JTDyck (Nov 28, 2007)

*BPC Info*



Kevin said:


> We have a BP minister here on the board. Perhaps he could fill us in...
> 
> Ahem, Pastor Dyck?



Thanks, Kevin. I've been out of town for the past few days, and I came home to find this thread just now. I will try to make an informed response to at least some of the questions posted. 

I have been pastor of the Edmonton Bible Presbyterian Church for the past 17 years, but I did not grow up in the BPC. I don't know that I can speak to all the things that have happened in our history, but I will make a few statements about where we are and where we're going. There are a lot of people who seem to be more than willing to receive every bad report they hear about BPs and then to believe them without checking the facts. I suggest you read George Marsden's article _Perspective on the Division of 1937_ in Pressing Toward the Mark, _Essays Commemorating Fifty Years of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church_ for a bit more balanced presentation of our past history. Even the OPs have been nice to us sometimes 

We have had corresponding relations with the Orthodox Presbyterian Church for the past two or three years. It is not as close a standing as fraternal relations, but we are talking and exchanging delegates to synods / general assemblies as well as to presbytery meetings. Our northwest presbyteries exchanged delegates this past September.

We are not members of NAPARC. 

Contrary to popular belief, we are not dispensational, as we have passed a resolution in 1996 declaring it to be heresy, which you can read here.

As has been mentioned, we amended the Westminster Standards (WCF and WLC) to reflect a premillennial understanding of eschatology, but we have made official statements a number of times in our history to declare that we extend liberty in the area of eschatology.

Our future is in the hands of the Lord. We are grateful for the mercy He shows even to Bible Presbyterians. We are not growing as rapidly as we would like to, but we trust the Lord will bless us in the warm, experiential preaching of the gospel of His saving grace in Christ Jesus. We desire to be zealous for the truth and warning against error, a combination that is difficult to maintain in balance, but which we struggle to be diligent in.

The current state of the Bible Presbyterian Church is not without its difficulties, but still trusting in the Lord to visit this vine and revive His work in the midst of the years. I might add that our 72nd General Synod will be meeting here in Edmonton next August, the second time it has met outside the USA since 2003 (also in Edmonton).

Reactions: Like 1


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## Barnpreacher (Nov 28, 2007)

Thanks for that post, Pastor Dyck. I pray that God will continue to use the BPC to further His kingdom until He returns.

As I mentioned above, my experience with the BPC was in Collingswood. I also keep in contact with a BPC pastor in the Pittsburgh area (I think it's Pittsburgh). He is a fine Christian that I am honored to know, as are all the people I know at Collingswood.

God bless you in your service, brother.


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## Josiah (Nov 28, 2007)

JTDyck said:


> Kevin said:
> 
> 
> > We have a BP minister here on the board. Perhaps he could fill us in...
> ...



I appreciate your response to my questions. I have been a member of the OPC for 2 years now, and am learning more than my share of its history, and the history of other closely related churches. Coming from a very sheltered non-reformed, pentacostal background has many disadvantages.

I havnt known very many people who i run into (in the OPC) who have ever spoken critically of the BPC, most of what i know of her is from what i have read, and from what i have seen on the website. I enjoy reading from the WRS Journal, and from other articles on that i have seen at the WRS site. I would like to say I admire the the zeal of its members, and their high view of the scripture. 

I will deffinately have to check out those essays by Marsden! thank you for bringing it to my attention 

Oh BTW, will there be observers from the BPC at the next OP GA? I live in Wa state and our next GA in 2008 will be in my own backyard, and i am hoping to attend.


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## JTDyck (Nov 28, 2007)

Josiah said:


> Oh BTW, will there be observers from the BPC at the next OP GA? I live in Wa state and our next GA in 2008 will be in my own backyard, and i am hoping to attend.



Hi Josiah,

Lord willing, we will have observers to the OPC GA next year. I would like to be there, too, seeing it is so close (relatively speaking) to home. However, I may be busy with preparations for our own synod up here. You are welcome to join us, if you are willing and able!
I think you will find the article by Marsden very interesting.


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## Kevin (Nov 28, 2007)

Thanks Pastor John, that was helpful.


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## reformedmedia (Feb 4, 2008)

*Follow-up to Josiah's Questions about the BPC*

Hello,
I’m replying to Josiah’s inquiry about the questions of the Bible Presbyterian Church. Sorry to jump in so late, I just became a member of Puritanboard. I work with Pastor Dyck on the website committee and am under care of the South Atlantic Presbytery of the BPC.

In my research on the history of the BPC I’ve discovered in the minutes of 1956 that the cause for the split between the California, New Jersey, and Columbus presbyteries to form the original EPC was over eschatological freedom. Many of the BPers wanted to keep reformed Pre-mill as the main position where the men from the presbyteries above wanted more liberty, so they broke off in accordance to their right under the BPC’s constitution.

In 79, there was a number of men, mainly in the northeast, who wanted Pre-mill to be the only position of the BPC. It seems that since the 56 split, the church has leaned toward allowing a more broader view of eschatology. Although, historically, the BPC has been pre-mill with the majority of us being pre-mill to date. To my understanding, the men who broke to form the APC did it over eschatology. 

I believe Pastor Dyck answered the question about the OPC relationship and the dispensational stance of the BPC.

Recently we have launched a new website redesign in place of the old version. I update the site regularly, adding new message series to the Sermon Connect feature BPC Audio Messages
There are a couple messages there on the history of the Presbyterian Church in the US since the 1700s: American Presbyterianism 

Recently there has been an initiative to form an international body allowing BP churches in other countries to form presbyteries with delegates allowed in the BP Synod. Such places forming them now are in the countries of Bolivia and Myanmar. I believe the vision of our church has always been to reach out to the world and though things have become smaller in recent years and many great and faithful BP ministers are with the Lord, that vision has not died away but is still burning as bright as ever. 

The missionaries from the IBPFM and PMU are still supported greatly by the BPC and many young people (I included) have been part of the yearly short-term mission trips to Bolivia, Brazil, and Thailand.

The northwest, Great Lakes, South Atlantic, and Florida presbyteries have summer and winter camps that the youth attend each year.

The Lord saved me in 1996 at the age of 16 in the BPC of Apollo, PA and has put given me a great desire to work for this faithful ministry. There is much to be done. 

I hope that fills in the blanks a little bit. I am finding out more and more as I go through the minutes from the past. I am working on posting the minutes from each year soon, or at least an overview of what took place during that year’s Synod including messages and such. That will definitely shed more light on the matter. 

God bless!


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