# Pastors who pulpit-shop



## Pergamum (Jun 9, 2014)

I was really struck by the article tonight:

Pastors Leaving Their Flocks | Meet The Puritans



> A particularly sensitive subject concerns the issue of* pastors leaving their local ministry for another ministry*. In today’s ecclesiastical climate, including confessionally Reformed churches, we are facing a serious problem because of pastors treating the ministry as if they are professionals. The ministry today has more in common with worldly advancement than it does with some of the principles we find in the Scriptures.
> 
> This topic is something the Puritans were not silent about. John Owen, the so-called “Prince of the Puritans” – and I happen to think he is rightly called the “Prince” – remarks that the reason the early church had great ‘provisions’ against moving from one congregation to another is due to the practice of ‘professionalism’. Owen writes:
> 
> ...



I really want to study this subject deeper. Can anyone cite me other sources, quotes, articles, or letters/sermons where this subject if addressed in greater detail?


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## JonathanHunt (Jun 10, 2014)

What an excellent article. I wholly concur!


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## Jack K (Jun 10, 2014)

Well, I agree that the business of "moving up for professional advancement" is a bad way to approach the ministry. And the commitment and familiarity that comes from a lifetime of pastoring a single congregation can have enormous advantages.

But I also recognize that there can be advantages to having pastors move a bit from church to church. The cross-pollination is sometimes helpful. It keeps both churches and pastors from getting stuck in a rut or only exposed to one set of strengths, methods or favorite messages. So not all movement of pastors is bad. Sometimes it's unhealthy for a church to have the same pastor for several decades.


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## SolaScriptura (Jun 10, 2014)

I agree with Jack.

I certainly think that a longer tenure is better than a shorter tenure. But at the same time I am unwilling to make something like this a standard or an expectation since I believe that would go beyond the dictates of Scripture.


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## Bill The Baptist (Jun 10, 2014)

I would also agree with Jack and Ben. Certainly pastors should not seek to climb a ladder to ever larger churches in search of money or stature, but at the same time I believe that God does sometimes call pastors to go elsewhere. It's all about the motivation. And for the record, I enjoy pulpit shopping. I can never find one big enough.


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## reaganmarsh (Jun 10, 2014)

Just curious -- what factors would you brothers say ought to prompt a pastor to seek another pulpit?


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jun 10, 2014)

Two of the most effective Pastors I have had the privilege of sitting under spent almost their entire ministry with one congregation. That being my Papa in the faith Pastor Joe Gwynn and Dr. Roy Blackwood of 2nd RP. 



SolaScriptura said:


> I believe that would go beyond the dictates of Scripture.



I am not familiar with the dictates of scripture on this Ben. From what I see in scripture the Elders and Pastors of Churches in the Bible spent their time in one location unless they were Apostles or on Missions from Country to Country. I do see throughout Church History men being called to different ministries and callings by necessity and ordination. John Owen, Samuel Rutherford and other great men were ordained to Professorships for the training of the ministry. They struggled to hear such calls as they loved their flocks and the thought of leaving them was painful.


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## ZackF (Jun 10, 2014)

In fairness, I think in many churches the laity or the other leadership are pastor shopping for thoroughly unbiblical reasons like trying to find the next rock star pastor or a young model that is "more in touch" and so forth. I've heard many complaints about various pastors over the years but few using the biblical criteria set out in the Epistles. If a pastor gets this vibe I can see why he would want to move on. Why wait until you are dumped?


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## Semper Fidelis (Jun 10, 2014)

I find tremendous wisdom in the article. It doesn't prescribe that there are no circumstances by which a man might move to another pulpit but does articulate reason why a minister ought not as a general rule.

The persons I have learned most from ministry are from those who have labored long with a single congregation. One might even trace my spiritual maturation process in the 9 years I've participated on this board (not that anyone would care to do so and I still have much to learn and grow).

I've always had deep convictions about the Pastorate but it wasn't until I became an elder and started dealing with the local Church situation that it became more evident to me how much I would learn from ministers and elders who have been at ministry for decades in one place. There are innumerable difficulties in local ministry (and even at the Presbytery level) that one does not fully understand until you're faced with the tough issues of spurring on and exhorting people under your care. It causes Paul's defense of his ministry in 1 and 2 Corinthians to come to living color as you realize what it looks like on the ground. The weight of the mantle is really felt and the necessity for the Lord's strength and the unity of a session is necessary. It's leadership alike in some ways to other things but completely unlike it in another.

Spiritual care is not something that simply emerges but grows out of a sense of shared commitment. A man who has labored for forty years and baptizing the grandchildren of men and women he baptized creates a quality of care that cannot be compared to itinerant ministry. Minister friends of mine are literally heartbroken over the divorce of people in their congregation and take it very personally wondering how they might more carefully watch over and prepare people for ministry. At funerals, they can relate the decades of spiritual struggle and life of a loved one and provide comfort in a manner that one assigned cannot.

I'm not denigrating other kinds of ministry but this article resonates with me. I totally understand the desire at times to move on to seemingly greener fields but one cannot ever expect to truly know a flock at the same level of intimacy as one who has cared for that flock with tears for the entirety of his ministry.


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## DMcFadden (Jun 11, 2014)

A number of modern developments complicate the issue considerably.

* Professionalization of the pastoral ministry has become widespread - cf. Piper's "Brothers we are not professionals." Major denominations with standardized procedures, ministerial "development" programs, pension plans, and the encouragement to younger pastors to "think" of themselves as professionals both exhibit and foster this.
* The evangelical "star system" with media ministries, big box churches, and massive inputs from a wide varieties of pastors leads lay people to become "consumers" of sermons and pastors. In such a situation, there may be considerable pressure to get rid of one's current pastor in favor of a younger, better, more impressive, more "successful" one.
* Evangelical voluntarism, individualism, and emphasis upon immediate (rather than mediated through Word and Sacrament) relationship with God sows seeds of autonomy and undermines a Hebrews 13:17 attitude.
* Post WWII tendencies to "move around" rather than set down roots encourages this tendency. In recent years, however, economics have tended to militate in the opposite direction, depressing too frequent movements.

A somewhat dated book on some of the trends that have contributed to this lamentable condition can be found in the classic, "How to Become a Bishop Without Being Religious" by Charles M. Smith. If you can find a used copy of the 1966 book, it is well-worth the time (especially if you have a taste for ego puncturing sarcasm).


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jun 11, 2014)

Semper Fidelis said:


> A man who has labored for forty years and baptizing the grandchildren of men and women he baptized creates a quality of care that cannot be compared to itinerant ministry.



I have seen this and can testify to the truth of this. This type of relationship truly sets up a deep commitment and familial relationship that goes so deep.


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## JML (Jun 11, 2014)

I think one problem is that the exception has become the norm. Here is the norm as presented in the Scripture:

Titus 1:5


> For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you



The norm is for elders to be raised up from within the church to serve their local church. They therefore have a longstanding connection to the brethren in the congregation and the community. There are obviously exceptions to where this is not possible. However, this is the new norm:

Man feels called to the eldership in X town, is sent to Seminary in Y town, and then seeks an open pulpit and goes to Z town.

If there are not longstanding relationships and connections in the community, leaving is not as big of a deal. The norm is now almost impossible in some denominations where students are required to complete X years at a Seminary. I am not disparaging Seminary at all. I think it is one option but not the only option. There are obviously exceptions where the above takes place and a man stays in a community and congregation many, many years. It is an exception though in my opinion.

One clarification on this is that we are talking about elders here and NOT missionaries which is totally different. Missionaries go into other communities where there are no established congregations and where people have not heard the gospel. If there are established congregations, then the goal should be raise up elders from within the congregation and I believe the Scriptures teach this.


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## Bill The Baptist (Jun 11, 2014)

Another unfortunate reality regards finances. Many churches today simply cannot afford to pay more than a small salary. This may be fine for a pastor when he first gets out of seminary, but as he grows older and has more children, the small salary may not be enough to properly support his family. Of course he can go the bi-vocational route, but in my experience, bi-vocational pastors are bi-vocational only when it comes to their salary. The church still expects a "part-time" pastor to prepare and deliver three sermons a week, counsel members, plan services, oversee administration, conduct visitation, engage in outreach, etc. This often becomes quite a burden, and thus the pastor begins to look elsewhere. I think all of us agree that it is ideal for a pastor to stay at one place for their entire ministry, but sometimes this is simply not realistic.


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## Pergamum (Jun 11, 2014)

The author of the blog cites quotations from the ancient church and from John Owens. I would really LOVE further quotes or sermons where past authors treat this topic.


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## Pergamum (Jun 11, 2014)

Could it be argued that a church (if over 20-30 members) is not duly respecting their pastor enough to keep him if they cannot support him? It seems the bivocational option is often grievous if the pastor is still bivocational and yet has a church membership of 100-150 members. In such a case, shifting to a church that will give the pastor due respect by paying him enough to live seems a legit move...so says the logic

Thoughts?


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## Eoghan (Jun 11, 2014)

I have a book by John Piper which has been on my reading list for some months "We are not Professionals". I also note that it was one of the trends that Eric Alexander (my father in the faith) was most concerned about.


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## SolaScriptura (Jun 11, 2014)

There is a difference between "pulpit-shopping" - a mercenary practice of having no real loyalty to a body and always keeping one's eye looking out for the sweetest gig possible - and a pastor who really is a _genuine_ pastor but who, for whatever reason, believes it is time to move on from a present congregation.

We should be careful about throwing out the label "pulpit-shopper" when it is fairly easy to demonstrate that many (most?) pastors leave one church for another for reasons that are other than mercenary.


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## Caroline (Jun 11, 2014)

I sort of wonder who the author of the article is talking to. I don't doubt that somewhere there is a pastor who views his calling that way, but if so, I have never met this pastor in the OPC. I admit that is limited experience. But most pastors that I see at Presbytery are the same ones that I see the next time. Some have left, but generally for unavoidable reasons, like the dissolution of their church. It seems to me that there are not many high paying positions open for pastors in Reformed churches, so anyone with an overly professional attitude would do best to seek employment as an insurance salesman or an accountant. If they are still pastoring after twelve years, it is because they are pretty well attached to the job and the people, not because of the awesome benefits and applause, of which there is very little.


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## Pergamum (Jun 13, 2014)

So when should a pastor go and when should he stay? 

And in the case of lack of financial support for a man not called to bivocational ministry, should a pastor move to a congregation willing to support him?


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## JML (Jun 13, 2014)

Pergamum said:


> And in the case of lack of financial support for a man not called to bivocational ministry, should a pastor move to a congregation willing to support him?



I have been full-time, bi-vocational, and volunteer before.

Pastors are not called to vocational, bi-vocational, or volunteer ministry. Pastors are called to minister to congregations, people, and communities.


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## Pergamum (Jun 13, 2014)

If you are called to minister to a local body, yet are too tired to minister due to secular labors (despite the church having enough resources to support you full-time) doesn't this communicate a disrespect for the role of the minister? And is the minister then justified in finding a flock that will support him?


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## Edward (Jun 13, 2014)

Pergamum said:


> If you are called to minister to a local body, yet are too tired to minister due to secular labors (despite the church having enough resources to support you full-time) doesn't this communicate a disrespect for the role of the minister? And is the minister then justified in finding a flock that will support him?



Wouldn't that be the pastor's fault for not having properly taught his congregation? Or if the pastor is new to the congregation, wouldn't that be the pastor's fault for not having clearly communicated with the church before accepting the call? 

The issues you raise on this thread should largely be Baptist issues, showing the practical benefits of the Presbyterian form of church government.


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## reaganmarsh (Jun 13, 2014)

Eoghan said:


> I have a book by John Piper which has been on my reading list for some months "We are not Professionals".



An excellent and helpful volume. I revisit it regularly.


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## JML (Jun 13, 2014)

Pergamum said:


> If you are called to minister to a local body, yet are too tired to minister due to secular labors (despite the church having enough resources to support you full-time) doesn't this communicate a disrespect for the role of the minister? And is the minister then justified in finding a flock that will support him?



Sure it communicates disrespect. Congregations are full of sinners just as pastors are sinners. My point is, who calls a man to ministry? God or man. If God calls a man to minister in a particular place, can he leave to go somewhere where he is better taken care of?


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## Edward (Jun 13, 2014)

John Lanier said:


> Sure it communicates disrespect. Congregations are full of sinners just as pastors are sinners. My point is, who calls a man to ministry? God or man. If God calls a man to minister in a particular place, can he leave to go somewhere where he is better taken care of?



"And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. "


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## ReverendJim (Jun 13, 2014)

Interesting discussion. The "professional" mentality for the ministry is sad, in my opinion. I've been at my place for nearly two years and have no plans to move on (or up, whatever that means for ministers). Still, ministers ought to live with their bags packed, so to speak, because The Lord may have other ideas for you.


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## MW (Jun 13, 2014)

There is a professional side to the pastoral office. There is also a personal side to it. It should not be considered merely professional or merely personal. The man has a job to do and the job needs to be done by a certain kind of man. He has a public responsibility and he also responds in private. These things should not be mutually exclusive.

The traditional Presbyterian view of the call should preclude the idea of "pulpit-shopping." That being said, the traditional Presbyterian view did not preclude men in the dark days of Moderatism from seeking out the "best" posts for themselves. You could blame it on the unPresbyterian system of Patronage. The reality is, with the abolition of patronage, certain in-groups assume the roles which were vacated by individual patrons. So now ministers can court favour with certain "in-groups" which dominate the ecclesiastical social system.

At the end of the day ministers will not answer to the people. They will answer to God. What is needed is more godly fear. "For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward."


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