# How Much is "Too Much" to Pay a Pastor?



## Marrow Man

A friend of mine posted the following on his blog. Ben Broxton just received a call to Riverside Church in New York City. Get a load of his compensation for accepting the call:



> * $250,000 in salary.
> * $11,500 *monthly* housing allowance ($138K/yr).
> * Private school tuition for their children.
> * A full-time maid.
> * "Entertainment," travel and professional development allowances.
> * Pension and life insurance benefits.
> * An equity allowance for the future purchase of a home.



And here I thought we were in a tough economy...

Wait a minute -- no health insurance?!? How do they expect him to survive?


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## Blueridge Believer

Marrow Man said:


> A friend of mine posted the following on his blog. Ben Broxton just received a call to Riverside Church in New York City. Get a load of his compensation for accepting the call:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * $250,000 in salary.
> * $11,500 *monthly* housing allowance ($138K/yr).
> * Private school tuition for their children.
> * A full-time maid.
> * "Entertainment," travel and professional development allowances.
> * Pension and life insurance benefits.
> * An equity allowance for the future purchase of a home.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here I thought we were in a tough economy...
> 
> Wait a minute -- no health insurance?!? How do they expect him to survive?
Click to expand...



Just look at the upcoming speaker:

Dr. Ann Holmes Redding, Preaching

On Sunday, April 19th, Ann Holmes Redding will be our guest preacher in morning worship. Dr. Redding, an Episcopal priest from Seattle, was recently defrocked by the Episcopal Church after announcing in 2007 that she is both Christian and Muslim. Dr. Redding formerly served as the Director of Faith Formation at St. Mark’s Episcopal Cathedral in Seattle.


_I really don't think we're talking about a real gospel church here_


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## LawrenceU

New York City is a very expensive place to live. My bet is that he won't live very high on the hog on that salary. Probably better than many, but not real high.


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## puritanpilgrim

> * $250,000 in salary.
> * $11,500 monthly housing allowance ($138K/yr).
> * Private school tuition for their children.
> * A full-time maid.
> * "Entertainment," travel and professional development allowances.
> * Pension and life insurance benefits.
> * An equity allowance for the future purchase of a home



what no bonus?

-----Added 4/23/2009 at 12:51:28 EST-----



> New York City is a very expensive place to live. My bet is that he won't live very high on the hog on that salary. Probably better than many, but not real high.



It doesn't cost 11,500 a month rent. Average apartment is around 1,500-2,000.


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## DMcFadden

Ah yes . . . Riverside . . . home of Fosdick and an unholy alliance between the UCC and the ABC (my old denomination).


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## LawrenceU

> It doesn't cost 11,500 a month rent. Average apartment is around 1,500-2,000.





Hmmm... missed that.

I'm a little preoccupied right now. One of my customers, a military contractor is missing a VERY expensive spool of com wire. They think it my have ended up in our landfill. This might be 'fun'.


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## Marrow Man

Blueridge Believer said:


> _I really don't think we're talking about a real gospel church here_





What an awfully judgmental thing to say. I should give a mod ding just for that...

J/K, of course. You are right on target. Why in the world would they advertise that their upcoming "speaker" was defrocked?!? It's like putting out a sign that says "Apostates R Us."

They are getting what they paid for. If they have no discernment with the gospel, why should we expect them to have any discernment with their dollars.


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## Tripel

I think we all agree that the compensation posted in the OP is excessive. 

However I'm curious if you were wanting to discuss the title of the thread in general.


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## Montanablue

> It doesn't cost 11,500 a month rent. Average apartment is around 1,500-2,000.



Really? I planned to move to Boston or New York last year, and studios in New York were at least 1500 - most more than that. Boston seemed a bit less, but still a one room studio ran about 1200. 

250,000/yr for NYC actually doesn't seem excessive to me. The additional housing allowance does seem a bit much though.


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## Scottish Lass

Daniel,
Aren't there too many variables? It's sort of like what the judge famously said--I know it when I see it. For example, what Tim was paid in MS wouldn't begin to cut it here w/out me working full-time.


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## SolaScriptura

I'm a free market capitalist. I don't think his salary is intrinsically any of our concern. I see some in his congregation are outraged over the amount and have even filed suit! Ok, well, since their tithes are paying his salary they DO have a vested interest in the compensation package (not that they should be suing - they should just leave the church - standard liberal fare: rather than bowing out in protest, they'd try to sue to impose their obviously minority position on the majority).

If his church wants to pay him that much, then fine.


But what I do find ironic - as the blogger does - is the amount of this salary in light of this church's reputation for preaching against the rich, etc. It shows the hypocritical nature of those who buy into the class warfare of the Left.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Marrow Man

Tripel said:


> I think we all agree that the compensation posted in the OP is excessive.
> 
> However I'm curious if you were wanting to discuss the title of the thread in general.



The title was more of a rhetorical question, but if you would like to go that route, then fire away. No one can accuse of hijacking a thread if the question was asked in the first place!


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## BJClark

What is sad is the members are taking this to court, if they disagree with the amount of $'s that has been agreed upon, they can merely leave and take their money else where, I'm sure they could find another group of like minded individuals to gather with on Sunday's or who knows, they may actually find themselves in a church where they actually PREACH the Gospel!!



> Many of his parishioners agree that - in light of the former pastor, the eminent preacher Dr. James Forbes - only had around $300K in compensation (and that was after nearly two decades of service). They were so upset that they took their case all the way up to the Manhattan Supreme Court!


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## Scottish Lass

Maybe the members who are upset should find a form of church government that allows members to vote on such issues. I can think of a few...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Marrow Man

Hmmm, I just had a thought. Perhaps the reason there is no health insurance mentioned is because ... he's not going to need it once we all have socialized medicine! Maybe I should just read between the lines here...


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## EricP

*Pastor salary*

To the uninitiated the Riverside offer sounds almost presidential--quarter mill a year, private school, maids; just no Secret Service! If we are approaching an era when churches become fodder for federal "oversight" (stemming no doubt from lawsuits of one type or another), then such salaries are going to cause problems for MANY pastors, I suspect. Perhaps the love, devotion, and care of a dedicated, warm, bible-reading, prayer service attending congregation would substitute? For those of us hoping for calls in the future, where are those congregations, please?


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## chbrooking

That would be excessive for a man of my caliber, but I know a few who would be a bargain at that price. They wouldn't require it of course. But I think the notion of double honor is lost on our culture. If you look at the salary of any profession requiring a minimum of 7 years education, and then double it. Where would you be?


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## ColdSilverMoon

I know this denomination and church appear to have their problems, but for a good Reformed pastor I don't think any salary is too high. I am grateful for all the pastors of my churches over the years. I know many of them live on meager income and give back a substantial portion of that - I would increase their salaries 10-fold if I could. 

And $250,000 is reasonable by NYC standards, but not great. Sure, a crummy, tiny studio in the Village may be $1500 a month, but any decent lodging appropriate for a family will run at least $3500/month in Manhattan.


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## ReformedChapin

This is somewhat derailing the thread but Im just wondering how you can be a member of both UCC and ABC?

BTW Riverside Church is a pile of heresy...what the heck man with



> Dr. Ann Holmes Redding, Preaching
> 
> On Sunday, April 19th, Ann Holmes Redding will be our guest preacher in morning worship. Dr. Redding, an Episcopal priest from Seattle, was recently defrocked by the Episcopal Church after announcing in 2007 that she is both Christian and Muslim. Dr. Redding formerly served as the Director of Faith Formation at St. Mark’s Episcopal Cathedral in Seattle.


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## DMcFadden

ReformedChapin said:


> This is somewhat derailing the thread but Im just wondering how you can be a member of both UCC and ABC?
> 
> BTW Riverside Church is a pile of heresey...what the heck man with
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr. Ann Holmes Redding, Preaching
> 
> On Sunday, April 19th, Ann Holmes Redding will be our guest preacher in morning worship. Dr. Redding, an Episcopal priest from Seattle, was recently defrocked by the Episcopal Church after announcing in 2007 that she is both Christian and Muslim. Dr. Redding formerly served as the Director of Faith Formation at St. Mark’s Episcopal Cathedral in Seattle.
Click to expand...


In some Protestant communions, dual alignment between denominations is quite popular. The ABC, in particular, has a notable number of its 5,500 congregations that are dually aligned with a Black Baptist denomination or with the liberal UCC (a "kissing cousin" to the ABC in many ways).


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

I know several smaller PC(USA) churches that are "dually-aligned" with ELCA, UCC, UMC, and/or other denominations.


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## ReformedChapin

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> I know several smaller PC(USA) churches that are "dually-aligned" with ELCA, UCC, UMC, and/or other denominations.



I've heard of churches such as PCUSA and ECLA having a partnership but not dual denomination membership.


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## FenderPriest

LawrenceU said:


> New York City is a very expensive place to live. My bet is that he won't live very high on the hog on that salary. Probably better than many, but not real high.



These are my initial thoughts. I actually could maybe understand $250k for being in NYC, but the additional aspects seemed a little much...


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## Ex Nihilo

Montanablue said:


> It doesn't cost 11,500 a month rent. Average apartment is around 1,500-2,000.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really? I planned to move to Boston or New York last year, and studios in New York were at least 1500 - most more than that. Boston seemed a bit less, but still a one room studio ran about 1200.
> 
> 250,000/yr for NYC actually doesn't seem excessive to me. The additional housing allowance does seem a bit much though.
Click to expand...


This is what I thought, too. I haven't lived in New York, but many, many people have told me it's much more expensive than Boston/Cambridge. And in Cambridge, a one-bedroom apartment runs from $1100 (studio) to $1400-$1800 (one-bedroom). And these are not large, luxurious places. It would be significantly more expensive for a family, obviously. I was also (not very seriously) looking at NYU Law School at one point, and it would have been more expensive than $1500/month _just for me_ to live in Hoboken or Brooklyn, much less Manhattan.

With all that said, I would be more concerned about the (apparently excessive) perks if this were an otherwise orthodox church. As it is, it confirms what we know about the hypocrisy of the left.


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## Marrow Man

According to the benchmarks of the left, $250K is entry into the "rich" eschalon. This guy will pull down somewhere in the neighborhood of $500-600K once all the perks are factored it.


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## Curt

I'm just a country preacher. Yes, I do have more education than everyone in my congregation. I believe that my compensation should be enough for me to live in this economy and put a little aside for sanity (vacation), education, and old age (not retirement - thats another thread, or two).

That being said, it seems to me that the compensation at Riverside is probably not excessive. That is not to argue that it is an actual church. Nor does it imply that I would ever wish to candidate at such a place.


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## DTK

I never cease to be amazed at how Americans (and even folks in the church) love to discuss other folk's business, and then ask for others to pass judgment on something that doesn't really bear any weight on their own lives.

DTK


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## puritanpilgrim

> And $250,000 is reasonable by NYC standards, but not great. Sure, a crummy, tiny studio in the Village may be $1500 a month, but any decent lodging appropriate for a family will run at least $3500/month in Manhattan.



What does $11,500 a month buy?

-----Added 4/23/2009 at 03:53:33 EST-----



> I'm a free market capitalist. I don't think his salary is intrinsically any of our concern. I see some in his congregation are outraged over the amount and have even filed suit! Ok, well, since their tithes are paying his salary they DO have a vested interest in the compensation package (not that they should be suing - they should just leave the church - standard liberal fare: rather than bowing out in protest, they'd try to sue to impose their obviously minority position on the majority).
> 
> If his church wants to pay him that much, then fine.



I like free market too. Can't we still judge that a church is spending it's money poorly? Or perhaps that they have poor motives. This isn't the CEO of GE. This is a pastor.


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## Montanablue

DTK said:


> I never cease to be amazed at how Americans (and even folks in the church) love to discuss other folk's business, and then ask for others to pass judgment on something that doesn't really bear any weight on their own lives.
> 
> DTK



You've just made a really good point.


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## Archlute

DTK said:


> I never cease to be amazed at how Americans (and even folks in the church) love to discuss other folk's business, and then ask for others to pass judgment on something that doesn't really bear any weight on their own lives.
> 
> DTK



It is right that these things be discussed by any in the church, because it has bearing on the reputation of the kingdom, which affects us all. Ministers' salaries are not private business in as much as every facet of a minister's life should set an example to the flock, and yes, even the flock at large.


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## DTK

Archlute said:


> DTK said:
> 
> 
> 
> I never cease to be amazed at how Americans (and even folks in the church) love to discuss other folk's business, and then ask for others to pass judgment on something that doesn't really bear any weight on their own lives.
> 
> DTK
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is right that these things be discussed by any in the church, because it has bearing on the reputation of the kingdom, which affects us all. Ministers' salaries are not private business in as much as every facet of a minister's life should set an example to the flock, and yes, even the flock at large.
Click to expand...


Well, then, we do disagree, and if that excuse suffices for what is going on here, then every aspect of every Christian's life is subject to your judgment.



> 4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. Rom*14:4



If this text doesn't apply to what's going on here, then I am at a loss to find an application for it today.

DTK


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## Archlute

DTK said:


> Archlute said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DTK said:
> 
> 
> 
> I never cease to be amazed at how Americans (and even folks in the church) love to discuss other folk's business, and then ask for others to pass judgment on something that doesn't really bear any weight on their own lives.
> 
> DTK
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is right that these things be discussed by any in the church, because it has bearing on the reputation of the kingdom, which affects us all. Ministers' salaries are not private business in as much as every facet of a minister's life should set an example to the flock, and yes, even the flock at large.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, then, we do disagree, and if that excuse suffices for what is going on here, then every aspect of every Christian's life is subject to your judgment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. Rom*14:4
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If this text doesn't apply to what's going on here, then I am at a loss to find an application for it today.
> 
> DTK
Click to expand...


David, that verse is found in the context of Paul discussing the relationship of faith, the tender conscience, and liberty from man made laws regarding food and days of observance. If we took it to restrict against the making of any and all judgments as you do here (much in the same that many in evangelical churches will interpret Matt. 7:1) we would be unable even to assert the rights of a presbytery to oversee and evaluate the life of a minister within her bounds.


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## Montanablue

Archlute said:


> DTK said:
> 
> 
> 
> I never cease to be amazed at how Americans (and even folks in the church) love to discuss other folk's business, and then ask for others to pass judgment on something that doesn't really bear any weight on their own lives.
> 
> DTK
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is right that these things be discussed by any in the church, because it has bearing on the reputation of the kingdom, which affects us all. Ministers' salaries are not private business in as much as every facet of a minister's life should set an example to the flock, and yes, even the flock at large.
Click to expand...


I would agree with this statement if it was limited to one's own church. Its absolutely right for me to be concerned with the salary my church pays our minister, or, if I was in a Presbyterian church for instance,with the salary paid to other churches in our presbtery or denomination. However, I'm not sure that discussing a pastor's salary in another church or denomination is right or helpful, especially if I'm being critical. Its at least not right or helpful for me, and with that I think I'll be bowing out of this thread. 

Thanks DTK


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## DonP

I would think a minister should earn in the upper half of the congregations avg. income 

The only limit on too much would be that which would tempt him to sin. 

If he is to care for our eternal soul should he not be paid more than a doctor who only cares for our temporal bodies? 

He is certainly a teacher, + more, and has the education of a lawyer, or should have. He will settle disputes that would confuse most lawyers. 

I think a church who wants a to pay only little for a preacher does not think too highly of the word, of God, of the ministry for sure and of their own souls. 

I do think it would be wise to only pay him $249k with the new tax rule coming at $250k he would get less income. 

But at $250k - 45% tax it would only be $162k 

If it is a church with a lot of wealthy business people who make in excess of this he may be a lower paid person at that. 

No limits on pay for pastors except where it would cause him sin. Look how many are broke, have to leave a denomination and lose pensions when the church goes bad, etc. etc. 
Pay as much as you can so hopefully he will be able to save for his own future and not have to sell out to a corrupt denomination to keep a pension and provide for their family

And if it is a large church and this expense is not a burden on the families then no problem. The pastor has more work to do in a large church. Hopefully they will have an assistant and associate pastors too. 

They are as valuable as a CEO of a worldly business.

And if the church is large and it is not a burden on the families no problem. 
And if there are a lot of families there is more work for the pastor. And hopefully they will also have enough money left to pay for assistants and associate pastors and maybe even full time elders to support and care for the church


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## DTK

Archlute said:


> David, that verse is found in the context of Paul discussing the relationship of faith, the tender conscience, and liberty from man made laws regarding food and days of observance. If we took it to restrict against the making of any and all judgments as you do here (much in the same that many in evangelical churches will interpret Matt. 7:1) we would be unable even to assert the rights of a presbytery to oversee and evaluate the life of a minister within her bounds.



Yes, I am very much aware of the context, and its application is not restricted to the same; the principle enunciated there stands. 

Moreover, it is a non sequitur to introduce the suggestion that I am restricting "the making of any and all judgments as [I did] here." I never said that, and much to the contrary I am conscious that my own words were the result of a judgment. 

But the fact of the matter is, unless you are a member of that presbytery, and unless you can prove sin has been committed, it is my judgment that this man's salary is none of your business. So I do recognize the validity of judgments when it is appropriate.

DTK


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## Archlute

DTK said:


> Archlute said:
> 
> 
> 
> David, that verse is found in the context of Paul discussing the relationship of faith, the tender conscience, and liberty from man made laws regarding food and days of observance. If we took it to restrict against the making of any and all judgments as you do here (much in the same that many in evangelical churches will interpret Matt. 7:1) we would be unable even to assert the rights of a presbytery to oversee and evaluate the life of a minister within her bounds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I am very much aware of the context, and its application is not restricted to the same; the principle enunciated there stands.
> 
> Moreover, it is a non sequitur to introduce the suggestion that I am restricting "the making of any and all judgments as [I did] here." I never said that, and much to the contrary I am conscious that my own words were the result of a judgment.
> 
> But the fact of the matter is, unless you are a member of that presbytery, and unless you can prove sin has been committed, it is my judgment that this man's salary is none of your business. So I do recognize the validity of judgments when it is appropriate.
> 
> DTK
Click to expand...


a) Your application is unconvincing. Exactly how would you defend making that leap in a homiletics class? The principle must be taken in context otherwise all you get is gross proof-texting, which of course is not unknown even in Reformed pulpits.

b) The kingdom of God is larger than a presbytery, or even a denomination for that matter.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih

I think there have been a number of good points made.

A good preacher can hardly be paid too much.

It does look bad though if they preach against wealth and then accumulate a lot of it themselves.

But I hate to say it folks but money is relative.

What is moderate income in a New York church that services bankers, managers and the social elite, is an exuberant income to preacher from a small farming community in Kansas. 

I think, as people have said, there are so many factors involved here. It is one of these issues where in some way we shouldn't talk about it all the time because so often it ends up being used against us, i.e. "that is too much," or "all those people care about is money," when in actual fact the salary is moderate for their area. I think, for example, it is important that the pastor be able to at least socialize and/or minister to his congregation. If this involves the need for a car in New York then think of the cost. If not then he needs a taxi allowance (or an appropriate salary) or the cost of public transport factored in. If he has a large family and it is a middle-upper class congregation perhaps he will also have to dress in a moderate manner, or drink coffee with them when meeting a member during their lunch break, or send his children to the same private school as the other members etc...

There are simply so many reasons.

Although I will add, a guy from my school in New Zealand just graduated and left in February to start a $250,000 job in New York. If a recent graduate from a backwater like New Zealand can earn that, then a minister can also.

-----Added 4/23/2009 at 04:49:21 EST-----



DTK said:


> Archlute said:
> 
> 
> 
> David, that verse is found in the context of Paul discussing the relationship of faith, the tender conscience, and liberty from man made laws regarding food and days of observance. If we took it to restrict against the making of any and all judgments as you do here (much in the same that many in evangelical churches will interpret Matt. 7:1) we would be unable even to assert the rights of a presbytery to oversee and evaluate the life of a minister within her bounds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I am very much aware of the context, and its application is not restricted to the same; the principle enunciated there stands.
> 
> Moreover, it is a non sequitur to introduce the suggestion that I am restricting "the making of any and all judgments as [I did] here." I never said that, and much to the contrary I am conscious that my own words were the result of a judgment.
> 
> But the fact of the matter is, unless you are a member of that presbytery, and unless you can prove sin has been committed, it is my judgment that this man's salary is none of your business. So I do recognize the validity of judgments when it is appropriate.
> 
> DTK
Click to expand...

Can we look at it though as a case study? A story to get the discussion going? I understood the question to be exactly what the title said, "How much is too much for a pastor?"


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## Rich Koster

If a man is actually laboring to preach the truth amidst the people, he is worth his keep. However at this rate of pay, I'd be curious to see how much he lives on, how much is wasted and how much gets put back into the ministry.


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## DTK

> Can we look at it though as a case study? A story to get the discussion going? I understood the question to be exactly what the title said, "How much is too much for a pastor?"


Well, my own statements constitute something of a case study. Why limit it to a pastor? Do you want to post how much you make, and ask for everyone's opinion here whether it's too little or too much? I see that egalitarianism (so denounced on this board) is nonetheless alive and well, and its adherents are among *us*. We have met the terrible enemy of egalitarianism, and he is WE. 

DTK


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## ooguyx

PeaceMaker said:


> The only limit on too much would be that which would tempt him to sin.
> 
> 
> I think a church who wants a to pay only little for a preacher does not think too highly of the word, of God, of the ministry for sure and of their own souls.



I agree that it is up to the congregation to determine the pastor's salary, but it seems that more often than not it doesn't happen that way (at least in mainline evangelical denominations). 

I don't agree that a pastor's salary is tied to the congregations level of commitment to the word of God etc., the bottom line is that money is a resource that we have and we are expected to be good stewards of what we have, both in personal finance and church finance.


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## N. Eshelman

I wonder what a real pastor in Manhattan would make? Does anyone know Tim Keller's salary (anyone with a PCA Minutes of Synod could look it up)? Without knowing the cost of living, etc. in the area I find it hard to say too much about the wage. 

Being in LA, I know that the cost of living can be HUGE in some areas. The house we are purchasing here is over $500,000- I bet Manhattan would be MUCH MUCH higher. 

As for the maid, my wife said- 'sign me up'!


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## DonP

ooguyx said:


> PeaceMaker said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only limit on too much would be that which would tempt him to sin.
> 
> 
> I think a church who wants a to pay only little for a preacher does not think too highly of the word, of God, of the ministry for sure and of their own souls.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that it is up to the congregation to determine the pastor's salary, but it seems that more often than not it doesn't happen that way (at least in mainline evangelical denominations).
> 
> I don't agree that a pastor's salary is tied to the congregations level of commitment to the word of God etc., the bottom line is that money is a resource that we have and we are expected to be good stewards of what we have, both in personal finance and church finance.
Click to expand...


If that was referring to my statement:
I didn't say it was tied to the congregation's level of commitment. 

They may not be able to pay more. I said if they do not value it enough to desire to pay more or if they only value it enough to pay a small amount this speaks to their view of God. 

We should value it highly. Then pay as we are able, but sacrificially if necessary. As well as support evangelistic efforts. 

We should be trusting God to provide for tomorrow and giving as much as we can rather than storing up in barns excessively. 

Of course this is a matter of conscience so we cannot judge another in this matter.


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## OPC'n

LawrenceU said:


> New York City is a very expensive place to live. My bet is that he won't live very high on the hog on that salary. Probably better than many, but not real high.


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## P.F.

Archlute said:


> a) Your application is unconvincing. Exactly how would you defend making that leap in a homiletics class? The principle must be taken in context otherwise all you get is gross proof-texting, which of course is not unknown even in Reformed pulpits.
> b) The kingdom of God is larger than a presbytery, or even a denomination for that matter.


 The leap seems to me less than the implicit leap here:


Archlute said:


> It is right that these things be discussed by any in the church, because it has bearing on the reputation of the kingdom, which affects us all. Ministers' salaries are not private business in as much as every facet of a minister's life should set an example to the flock, and yes, even the flock at large.


In the former case, it is simply the application of a general principle of not sticking one's nose into others employment affairs to a second context (which would be well supported by reference to the Proverbs of Solomon). In the latter case it is a shift from Paul's admonition to lead an exemplary life to essentially a duty of all Christians to be minister-inspectors. The former "leap" is simply a valid generalization of a Scriptural principle. The latter leap is a justification for anyone being a busybody, as long as the victim is a minister. The former is warranted, the latter is not. 

And that even leaves aside the idea that unbelievers are more scandalized by apparent avarice (is that the implicit accusation?) on the part of a single minister than by gossip about his salary by a mob of ministers. I should hope that none of that gossip would be motivated by envying at the good of a neighbor (rather instead by a sincere desire to aid this man in correcting his avarice or whatever the alleged sin is), but to the outside world, that's what it very well may look like.


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## ColdSilverMoon

nleshelman said:


> I wonder what a real pastor in Manhattan would make? Does anyone know Tim Keller's salary (anyone with a PCA Minutes of Synod could look it up)? Without knowing the cost of living, etc. in the area I find it hard to say too much about the wage.
> 
> Being in LA, I know that the cost of living can be HUGE in some areas. The house we are purchasing here is over $500,000- I bet Manhattan would be MUCH MUCH higher.
> 
> As for the maid, my wife said- 'sign me up'!



I don't know Tim Keller's salary, but I do know where he lives and it isn't exactly a swanky part of New York (standard middle class) - not even technically in Manhattan. I would be very surprised if he makes less than $100,000 or more than $200,000. Redeemer's operating budget for this year and next should be mailed out in the next few weeks. I'll check it out and see if it details the salaries of the pastoral staff...


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## Zenas

There are people in our church who think my pastor gets paid too much when, at the time they thought this, he was probably below the poverty line for the amount of people who were in his house. 

There is a prevailing stigma that not only should pastor's families be poor, but that by in large they should do without and worse than most of the congregation. I find this sentiment to be disgusting. 

I think that the money that particular pastor is making is probably way too much, but I certainly am against intentionally keeping pastors impoverished, which is the preference of some.


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## SolaScriptura

puritanpilgrim said:


> I'm a free market capitalist. I don't think his salary is intrinsically any of our concern. I see some in his congregation are outraged over the amount and have even filed suit! Ok, well, since their tithes are paying his salary they DO have a vested interest in the compensation package (not that they should be suing - they should just leave the church - standard liberal fare: rather than bowing out in protest, they'd try to sue to impose their obviously minority position on the majority).
> 
> If his church wants to pay him that much, then fine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like free market too. Can't we still judge that a church is spending it's money poorly? Or perhaps that they have poor motives. This isn't the CEO of GE. This is a pastor.
Click to expand...


I don't think you have a legitimate right to pass judgment on a church that is not your own and how it spends it's money... particularly when the money in question is the amount this congregation decided to pay its pastor. You have even less of a right to pass judgment on their motives for paying him as they do. That is _their_ business.


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## DTK

Archlute said:


> a) Your application is unconvincing. Exactly how would you defend making that leap in a homiletics class? The principle must be taken in context otherwise all you get is gross proof-texting, which of course is not unknown even in Reformed pulpits.
> 
> b) The kingdom of God is larger than a presbytery, or even a denomination for that matter.



And neither is your contention against it convincing. And if you think that a text's application is limited to the precise context and situation in which it was given, then I suggest you would have nothing to say for it today by way of application. And I am thankful, mind you, that my homiletics prof didn't share your personal opinion.

Yes, the kingdom of God is much larger than the personal opinions offered by individuals here who really have no vested interest in this particular situation, other than their own assertion that they do. Personally, I think it's deplorable how you attempted to twist my words into something I never said in your earlier post...you don't even acknowledge your attempt to misconstrue my earlier words. Now, to be sure, I'm not offended, but it did expose the problem with your argument. So at this point, I'm willing to accept the fact that you're simply all for this particular brand of egalitarianism. 

Now then, if you really believe that for which you're contending, please post your own salary here, and ask those who share your egalitarian perspective whether you're making too much or too little, or whether your place of employment (if you have such) is paying you too much or too little. Hey, you're a model here, and that makes your personal business just as legitimate as the situation in question. After all, isn't the kingdom of God bigger than just one church and one pastor's salary? 

DTK


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## Marrow Man

Let me apologize for posting this thread; the conversation has begun to turn in a direction I had not intended, and I regret that. However, some good points have been made on the thread:

1) The church seems to be acting "hypocritically" in denouncing "the rich" which designing a package wherein their pastor enters that realm.
2) Cost of living in NYC/Manhattan is much higher than I thought; nevertheless, paying for a maid and essentially _two _housing allowances seems a bit much.
3) While there may be mediocre pastors who are paid too much, there are probably plenty of good, solid men who are not paid nearly enough.
4) What a church chooses to pay it's pastor is mostly its own business. There can be gross consequences to that, in either direction, and it must be willing to live with those. This is the free market at work, so to speak.
5) I realize that I am probably a whole lot nosier than I need to be, and I have come dangerously close on this thread to committing a 10th Commandment violation.

In consideration of this and Pastor King's last post, I will be perfectly willing to post the detail of my own call on this thread. I doubt most people will want to be bored to tears by such a post, but since I'm the one who created this monster, I am perfectly willing to turn him over to the villagers with their torches.


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## Archlute

DTK said:


> Archlute said:
> 
> 
> 
> a) Your application is unconvincing. Exactly how would you defend making that leap in a homiletics class? The principle must be taken in context otherwise all you get is gross proof-texting, which of course is not unknown even in Reformed pulpits.
> 
> b) The kingdom of God is larger than a presbytery, or even a denomination for that matter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And neither is your contention against it convincing. And if you think that a text's application is limited to the precise context and situation in which it was given, then I suggest you would have nothing to say for it today by way of application. And I am thankful, mind you, that my homiletics prof didn't share your personal opinion.
> 
> Yes, the kingdom of God is much larger than the personal opinions offered by individuals here who really have no vested interest in this particular situation, other than their own assertion that they do. Personally, I think it's deplorable how you attempted to twist my words into something I never said in your earlier post...you don't even acknowledge your attempt to misconstrue my earlier words. Now, to be sure, I'm not offended, but it did expose the problem with your argument. So at this point, I'm willing to accept the fact that you're simply all for this particular brand of egalitarianism.
> 
> Now then, if you really believe that for which you're contending, please post your own salary here, and ask those who share your egalitarian perspective whether you're making too much or too little, or whether your place of employment (if you have such) is paying you too much or too little. Hey, you're a model here, and that makes your personal business just as legitimate as the situation in question. After all, isn't the kingdom of God bigger than just one church and one pastor's salary?
> 
> DTK
Click to expand...


David, you're still dodging the issue. Application must must speak to the church today, but it must also be limited and guided by the context of the passage. I don't see that care in your application. I learned my homiletics from the Rev. Dr. Hywel Rees Jones, friend and student of the late Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones. So if you have a beef with it, please take it up with him.

Btw, accusations of "egalitarianism" are convenient when you get yourself boxed into a corner. It is known in debate as throwing out a red-herring.


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## Grace Alone

An interesting comparison of salaries to me would be Harry Reeder and Tim Keller...both huge churches but a vastly different cost of living. I'd think Tim Keller might need double the salary in NYC versus Birmingham, AL.


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## ColdSilverMoon

Grace Alone said:


> An interesting comparison of salaries to me would be Harry Reeder and Tim Keller...both huge churches but a vastly different cost of living. I'd think Tim Keller might need double the salary in NYC versus Birmingham, AL.



Very good point, Janis. My parents are members of Pastor Reeder's church (Briarwood) - their budget is very similar to Reedemer's. The last budget I saw (several years ago) put his salary in the $80,000 range - I wouldn't be surprised if Pastor Keller's is twice that. Interestingly, Pastor Reeder lives in a nice house in the nicest neighborhood in Birmingham - Pastor Keller doesn't live in poverty by any means, but the quality of their homes and neighborhoods is very different. I'm not making a judgment about either one (Pastor Reeder is very sacrificial in his giving), just making the observation that a lot less money will get you a lot more in Birmingham than in NYC. 

All that to say, we should expect a pastor's salary to be a lot higher in a city like New York compared to the pastor of a similar church in a smaller town.


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## DMcFadden

nleshelman said:


> I wonder what a real pastor in Manhattan would make? Does anyone know Tim Keller's salary (anyone with a PCA Minutes of Synod could look it up)? Without knowing the cost of living, etc. in the area I find it hard to say too much about the wage.
> 
> Being in LA, I know that the cost of living can be HUGE in some areas. The house we are purchasing here is over $500,000- I bet Manhattan would be MUCH MUCH higher.
> 
> As for the maid, my wife said- 'sign me up'!



Nathan,

Thanks for weighing in on the subject. Yes, your house cost more than a half million (a couple of years ago it would have been much closer to a million bucks). Cost of living does matter and should not be discounted in these conversations.

Folks need to realize the history of Riverside Church. This is the house Rockerfeller built and it has a long history of being the center of limosine liberal Christianity in Protestantism. Located within a stone's throw from the National Council of Churches headquarters (490 Riverside Dr. vs. 475 Riverside Dr.), pastors like Fosdick, William Sloane Coffin, James Forbes, etc. have set the bar pretty high for "progressive" ministry with a hard left political agenda.

My former denom, ABC, LOVES to crow about Riverside as an element of pride, a sentiment reciprocated by the Riverside folks as is evident from their web page: 



> *Denominational Affiliations
> 
> American Baptist Churches USA*
> American Baptists are a Christ-centered, biblically grounded, ethnically diverse people called to radical personal discipleship in Christ Jesus. Our commitment to Jesus propels us to nurture authentic relationships with one another; build healthy churches; transform our communities, our nations, and our world; engage every member in hands-on ministry; and speak the prophetic word in love. *The Riverside Church is a member church of ABC/USA.*
> 
> *The United Church of Christ*
> The United Church of Christ is a community of faith that seeks to respond to the Gospel of Jesus Christ in word and deed. The UCC was founded in 1957 as the union of several different Christian traditions: from the beginning of our history, we were a church that affirmed the ideal that Christians did not always have to agree to live together in communion. Our motto-"that they may all be one"-is Jesus' prayer for the unity of the church. The UCC is one of the most diverse Christian churches in the United States. *The Riverside Church is a member church of the U.C.C*.



BTW, Nathan, if you are not using your personal driver, maid, and concierge next Friday, could we borrow them at Atherton Baptist Homes? We are just a poor Baptist ministry and don't have some of those things you folks do over at Los Angeles Reformed Presbyterian Church.


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## DonP

I do think it may become, if made known, as people often do rather than discussing the matter with their elders, a matter for a presbytery to comment on if it was so out of the ordinary and unnecessary that it would become a matter of temptation for other ministers or congregants. 

And I do think the maid may be pushing it, but could this not possibly be a nanny/maid if he has children? And do we know if his wife works, or is supposed to be busy co-pastoring or leading women's groups etc. 

In this case it could be seen as a day care expense. 

Not that I agree with any of this for a man I don't know ... 

One other factor is some men have taxes taken out of their pay as employees and others do not. They take all the money and file as a contractor not an employee. This also effects how much he actually gets paid. 

So yes we should use care, 
But I agree with the OP that it is often challenging to see the wicked prosper, and the good with so little. But such it is in this life as we are taught. 

And I do think it is good for all of us to consider seeking to pay our ministers a much larger salary than many get.


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## Webservant

The pastors of some of the urban churches here in Baltimore make upwards of $100,000 a year. There was one in particular in the paper whose congregation bought him a Bentley for either his birthday or his anniversary. Their building was auctioned off shortly thereafter for failure to pay the mortgage. 

I certainly don't think pastors should live as paupers, especially since many of them (and their families) put in a lot of time and gave up a lot to earn their degrees - but $100,000 a year just in salary (not even including housing allowance and benefits)? I'd have to work a whole lot of hours to make that kind of money!


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## DTK

Archlute said:


> ...you're still dodging the issue. Application must must speak to the church today, but it must also be limited and guided by the context of the passage. I don't see that care in your application. I learned my homiletics from the Rev. Dr. Hywel Rees Jones, friend and student of the late Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones. So if you have a beef with it, please take it up with him.
> 
> Btw, accusations of "egalitarianism" are convenient when you get yourself boxed into a corner. It is known in debate as throwing out a red-herring.


I am very content to grant you the last word, because I think my points have been made, and I think this, your last post, speaks for itself.

DTK


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## Wannabee

Archlute said:


> DTK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Archlute said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is right that these things be discussed by any in the church, because it has bearing on the reputation of the kingdom, which affects us all. Ministers' salaries are not private business in as much as every facet of a minister's life should set an example to the flock, and yes, even the flock at large.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, then, we do disagree, and if that excuse suffices for what is going on here, then every aspect of every Christian's life is subject to your judgment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. Rom*14:4
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If this text doesn't apply to what's going on here, then I am at a loss to find an application for it today.
> 
> DTK
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> David, that verse is found in the context of Paul discussing the relationship of faith, the tender conscience, and liberty from man made laws regarding food and days of observance. If we took it to restrict against the making of any and all judgments as you do here (much in the same that many in evangelical churches will interpret Matt. 7:1) we would be unable even to assert the rights of a presbytery to oversee and evaluate the life of a minister within her bounds.
Click to expand...


It's interesting that the first paragraph, in a sense, is guilty of it's own accusation. I agree with the statement, but it's somewhat ironic. 

The problem here is that the church is to judge the church. Paul makes this clear in 1 Cor 5. But we are not to pass judgment in regard to condemnation, that is for God alone. As Christians, we look to see if this situation has any biblical implications. Does this person's salary reflect poorly on Christ? But before assessing that we must first know if this person/church is truly of Christ. If it is, then we are to follow Scripture in practicing discernment and judging whether or not there is a sin issue here. If they are not, then we "put it out" as not of Christ and leave judgment to God. There really is a clear balance here.

1 Corinthians 5:12-13
12For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”​
-----Added 4/23/2009 at 11:46:47 EST-----

In response to the OP:

Too much is much dependent upon the individual. Many ministers (people in general) cannot handle much money. It's been said that for every man that can handle wealth well there are many thousands who can't. This is largely proven true in America. The same holds true for a pastor. If he's a good steward and uses his resources for the furtherance of the kingdom then give him more. As long as he keeps his head and his focus on Christ and His glory, there is no such thing as "too much," unless it puts undue stress on the church body. The leadership of the church should assess the pastors ability to handle finances and give him enough to live within reasonable standards, but not so much as to engender his love of money.

MacArthur once asked his elders why they paid him so much after a substantial raise. The response was that they wanted to see what he would do with it. That's a valid response, in my opinion. 

For the record, it's not an issue here at our church.


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## Pergamum

Two key questions:

-(1) What is the average income of his congregation? IS there a "match" so that the pastor and the people are approximately on the same level?

--(2) What is required for his ministry expenses?

We need to allow pastors to have a separate ministry account for hospitality, etc. 

They do this for missionaries, pastors have similar needs. 

Example: This year my W2 read 29,450 USD per year - but I have used twice this amount for ministry causes, paying medical needs, initatiating evangelism, etc. Therefore, this pay is adequate (if I can just manage to guard my own chunk and not also spend it, too, on ministry). 

I would think pastors would need such a "ministry account" as well, that is adequately full as to not impair his initiative or boldness in taking some evangelistic risks. 


....More bullets for front line soldiers is never a bad thing (if they are actually shooting at the enemy).


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## jogri17

In my opinion a pastor should be paid about the median sallary for his geographic area. Enough to be comfortable and enough to have extra to use to help others, but not enough to live without a budget. Ideally I think the church should pay for his books and health insurance. If possible having a home just for the Pastor and his family would be a great idea! That's what the odd school presbyterians used to do (even some PCUSA churches did that up to the beginning of the 20th century) and I like that idea.


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## Pergamum

Didn't the Apostle Paul say that _the lack of money is the root of all evil?_


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## WarrenInSC

Pergamum said:


> Didn't the Apostle Paul say that _the lack of money is the root of all evil?_


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## Pergamum

Sorry, I was reading my Osteen Study Bible (the OSB)


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## Brian Withnell

Marrow Man said:


> A friend of mine posted the following on his blog. Ben Broxton just received a call to Riverside Church in New York City. Get a load of his compensation for accepting the call:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * $250,000 in salary.
> * $11,500 *monthly* housing allowance ($138K/yr).
> * Private school tuition for their children.
> * A full-time maid.
> * "Entertainment," travel and professional development allowances.
> * Pension and life insurance benefits.
> * An equity allowance for the future purchase of a home.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here I thought we were in a tough economy...
> 
> Wait a minute -- no health insurance?!? How do they expect him to survive?
Click to expand...


Hmmm. Is that the median salary/benefits of those that attend that church? If so, then I would have no problem with it.

A pastor that lives in relative poverty to the congregation is underpaid. A pastor that lives in relative luxury to the congregation is overpaid. A pastor that is within one standard deviation of the median income (hopefully toward the high side) is appropriately paid (given his credentials are "professional" ... he has at least a master's degree).


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## KMK

Brian Withnell said:


> Hmmm. Is that the median salary/benefits of those that attend that church? If so, then I would have no problem with it.
> 
> A pastor that lives in relative poverty to the congregation is underpaid. A pastor that lives in relative luxury to the congregation is overpaid. A pastor that is within one standard deviation of the median income (hopefully toward the high side) is appropriately paid (given his credentials are "professional" ... he has at least a master's degree).



I tend to agree since that is the example of Levitical Law.

Generally, the tribe of Levi was one out of twelve. Therefore, there was one Levite family for every 11 nonlevite family. If all the Levite families tithed faithfully, the Levite family would earn 110% of the _average_ of all 11 families.


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## Rangerus

that's a lot!


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## Reformed Thomist

Those are some high-sounding figures. 

Maybe it's my background in the Roman Catholic Church, where pastors are not 'salaried' but only take a percentage from their parish's collection plate. (I've heard of many RCC priest-pastors making only 12 grand or so annually. Granted, they don't have wives or kids, and they live _at_ the parish.)


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## Calvin'scuz

I work with church's all over the U.S. (denominational as well as non-denominational). As a rule, African-American churches (which Riverside appears to be) hold their pastors in VERY high esteem. This pastor's compensation package is very typical for a church of this size and ethnic makeup. Like it or not, it's the rule rather than the exception.


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## Ivan

Calvin'scuz said:


> I work with church's all over the U.S. (denominational as well as non-denominational). As a rule, African-American churches (which Riverside appears to be) hold their pastors in VERY high esteem. This pastor's compensation package is very typical for a church of this size and ethnic makeup. Like it or not, it's the rule rather than the exception.



I don't think Riverside would qualify as a African-American church. I don't know what the predominant ethnic group is but I know they are a multi-racial, multi-cultural church. It was started by John D. Rockefeller in the 30's, who chose personally Harry Emerson Fosdick as its pastor. I believe most of the wealth of the church comes from being vested by the Rockefeller family and probable investments made throughout the years.


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## AltogetherLovely

> I tend to agree since that is the example of Levitical Law.
> 
> Generally, the tribe of Levi was one out of twelve. Therefore, there was one Levite family for every 11 nonlevite family. If all the Levite families tithed faithfully, the Levite family would earn 110% of the average of all 11 families.






> that's a lot!





> Those are some high-sounding figures.



Just to make sure it's clear, "110% of the average of all 11 families" is just another way to say "10% more than the average living of the 11 families." I would hope that doesn't sound high. It is only a hair above what most around them would make, which I would say is entirely reasonable, and should be seen as a floor, not a maximum.

I don't mean to imply that you all didn't understand, but I know a lot of people struggle with percentages. Forgive me if y'all knew that


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## Reepicheep

For as opinionated as I am about most things, I've never really known how to answer such a question as this post asks.

For me, I have come to trust the wisdom of my Session to oversee what I am paid. In my 13 years here, I have generally thought them to be sensitive and caring about this touchey issue. I certainly have more than my daily bread, for which I am very grateful


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