# What is the difference between Hymns and Spiritual Songs?



## crhoades

I beg of you...please don't torch this into another EP thread. i am aware that someone will say that they are not different and in fact neither is there a difference with Psalms as all three terms are used as Psalms. Then would come arguments over Ephesians etc. with a dose of headings from the Septuagint. 

For non-EP'rs out there. You clearly would differentiate between the three. I know what a psalm is. That much OT learning I have.  But what makes a hymn a hymn and a spiritual song a spiritual song and where are the differences? 

Is one composed ahead of time and the other more extamporaneous expression? Should not a hymn be a song that is sang in Spirit and truth? Are hymns un-spritual songs? 

Curious for responses. Exegetical ones welcome. If we could condense Calvin or Henry for brevity and give me a one-liner - I would appreciate it but not demand it. Thanks for playing!


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## Saiph

The word of Christ (ho logos tou Christou) This precise phrase only here, though "œthe word of the Lord" in 1Th_1:8; 1Th_4:15; 2Th_3:1. Elsewhere "œthe word of God." Paul is exalting Christ in this Epistle. Christou can be either the subjective genitive (the word delivered by Christ) or the objective genitive (the word about Christ). See note on 1Jo_2:14. 

Dwell (enoikeitoÌ„). Present active imperative of enoikeoÌ„, to make one´s home, to be at home. 

In you (en humin). Not "œamong you." 

Richly (plousioÌ„s). Old adverb from plousios (rich). See note on 1Ti_6:17. 

The following words explain plousioÌ„s. 

In all wisdom (en paseÌ„i sophiaÌ„i). It is not clear whether this phrase goes with plousioÌ„s (richly) or with the participles following (didaskontes kai nouthetountes, see note on Col_1:28). Either punctuation makes good sense. The older Greek MSS. had no punctuation. There is an anacoluthon here. The participles may be used as imperatives as in Rom_12:11., Rom_12:16. 

With psalms (psalmois, the Psalms in the Old Testament originally with musical accompaniment), hymns (humnois, praises to God composed by the Christians like 1Ti_3:16), spiritual songs (oÌ„idais pneumatikais, general description of all whether with or without instrumental accompaniment). The same song can have all three words applied to it. 

Singing with grace (en chariti aÌ„idontes). In God´s grace (2Co_1:12). The phrase can be taken with the preceding words. The verb aÌ„idoÌ„ is an old one (Eph_5:19) for lyrical emotion in a devout soul. 

In your hearts (en tais kardiais humoÌ„n). Without this there is no real worship "œto God" (toÌ„i theoÌ„i). How can a Jew or Unitarian in the choir lead in the worship of Christ as Saviour? Whether with instrument or with voice or with both it is all for naught if the adoration is not in the heart.

Robertson's Word Pictures



So Psalms (inspired)
Hymns (composed by christians based on scripture)
Spiritual Songs (songs that have spiritual content, but not necessarily directed to God. For instance, a song about marital faithfulness, or any song by U2)


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## Saiph

Condensed Matthew Henry:



> We must admonish one another in psalms and hymns. Observe, Singing of psalms is a gospel ordinance: psalmois kai humnois kai oÌ„dais - the Psalms of David, and spiritual hymns and odes, collected out of the scripture, and suited to special occasions, instead of their lewd and profane songs in their idolatrous worship. Religious poesy seems countenanced by these expressions and is capable of great edification. But, when we sing psalms, we make no melody unless we sing with grace in our hearts, unless we are suitably affected with what we sing and go along in it with true devotion and understanding.


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## crhoades

Now for the fun part - to see if we get a reformed consensus on your definitions.


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## Saiph

Geneva Study Bible



> Col 3:16 - Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in (l) psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
> 
> (l) By "psalms" he means all godly songs which were written upon various occasions, and by "hymns", all such as contain the praise of God, and by "spiritual songs", other more special and artful songs which were also in praise of God, but they were made fuller of music.


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## Saiph

Not a Psalm of David here:



Isa 26:1 * In that day this song will be sung in the land of Judah: *


"We have a strong city; he sets up salvation as walls and bulwarks. 
Isa 26:2 Open the gates, that the righteous nation that keeps faith may enter in. 
Isa 26:3 You keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on you, because he trusts in you. 
Isa 26:4 Trust in the LORD forever, for the LORD GOD is an everlasting rock. 
Isa 26:5 For he has humbled the inhabitants of the height, the lofty city. He lays it low, lays it low to the ground, casts it to the dust. 
Isa 26:6 The foot tramples it, the feet of the poor, the steps of the needy." 
Isa 26:7 The path of the righteous is level; you make level the way of the righteous. 
Isa 26:8 In the path of your judgments, O LORD, we wait for you; your name and remembrance are the desire of our soul. 
Isa 26:9 My soul yearns for you in the night; my spirit within me earnestly seeks you. For when your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness. 
Isa 26:10 If favor is shown to the wicked, he does not learn righteousness; in the land of uprightness he deals corruptly and does not see the majesty of the LORD. 
Isa 26:11 O LORD, your hand is lifted up, but they do not see it. Let them see your zeal for your people, and be ashamed. Let the fire for your adversaries consume them. 
Isa 26:12 O LORD, you will ordain peace for us; you have done for us all our works. 
Isa 26:13 O LORD our God, other lords besides you have ruled over us, but your name alone we bring to remembrance. 
Isa 26:14 They are dead, they will not live; they are shades, they will not arise; to that end you have visited them with destruction and wiped out all remembrance of them. 
Isa 26:15 But you have increased the nation, O LORD, you have increased the nation; you are glorified; you have enlarged all the borders of the land. 
Isa 26:16 O LORD, in distress they sought you; they poured out a whispered prayer when your discipline was upon them. 
Isa 26:17 Like a pregnant woman who writhes and cries out in her pangs when she is near to giving birth, so were we because of you, O LORD; 
Isa 26:18 we were pregnant, we writhed, but we have given birth to wind. We have accomplished no deliverance in the earth, and the inhabitants of the world have not fallen. 
Isa 26:19 Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead. 
Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until the fury has passed by. 
Isa 26:21 For behold, the LORD is coming out from his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, and the earth will disclose the blood shed on it, and will no more cover its slain.

(Not to digress into EP, just an example of a hymn in my opinion)

[Edited on 10-20-2005 by Saiph]


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## Saiph

> The oldest manuscripts read "psalms, hymns, spiritual songs" (see on Eph_5:19). At the AgapÃ¦ or love-feasts, and in their family circles, they were to be so full of the Word of Christ in the heart that the mouth should give it utterance in hymns of instruction, admonition, and praise (compare Deu_6:7). TERTULLIAN [Apology, 39], records that at the love-feasts, after the water had been furnished for the hands and the lights had been literally, according as any had the power, whether by his remembrance of Scripture, or by his powers of composition, he used to be invited to sing praises to God for the common good. Paul contrasts (as in Eph_5:18-19) the songs of Christians at their social meetings, with the bacchanalian and licentious songs of heathen feasts. Singing usually formed part of the entertainment at Greek banquets (compare Jam_5:13).
> 
> JFB Commentary


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## C. Matthew McMahon

I think a helpful study would be to go through the superscriptions and titles of the Psalter.


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## Saiph

> Psalm Superscriptions
> 
> 3 A Psalm of David, when he fled from his son Absalom.
> 4 To the leader: with stringed instruments. A Psalm of David.
> 5 To the leader: for the flutes. A Psalm of David.
> 6 To the leader: with stringed instruments; according to The Sheminith. A Psalm of David.
> 7 A Shiggaion of David, which he sang to the Lord concerning Cush, a Benjaminite.
> 8 To the leader: according to The Gittith. A Psalm of David.
> 9 To the leader: according to Muth-labben. A Psalm of David.
> 11 To the leader. Of David.
> 12 To the leader: according to The Sheminith. A Psalm of David.
> 13 To the leader. A Psalm of David.
> 14 To the leader. Of David.
> 15 A Psalm of David.
> 16 A Miktam of David.
> 17 A Prayer of David.
> 18 To the leader. A Psalm of David the servant of the Lord, who addressed the words of this song to the Lord on the day when the Lord delivered him from the hand of all his enemies, and from the hand of Saul. He said:
> 19 To the leader. A Psalm of David.
> 20 To the leader. A Psalm of David.
> 21 To the leader. A Psalm of David.
> 22 To the leader: according to The Deer of the Dawn. A Psalm of David.
> 23 A Psalm of David.
> 24 Of David. A Psalm.
> 25 Of David.
> 26 Of David.
> 27 Of David.
> 28 Of David.
> 29 A Psalm of David.
> 30 A Psalm. A Song at the dedication of the temple. Of David.
> 31 To the leader. A Psalm of David.
> 32 Of David. A Maskil.
> 34 Of David, when he feigned madness before Abimelech, so that he drove him out, and he went away.
> 35 Of David.
> 36 To the leader. Of David, the servant of the Lord.
> 37 Of David.
> 38 A Psalm of David, for the memorial offering.
> 39 To the leader: to Jeduthun. A Psalm of David.
> 40 To the leader. Of David. A Psalm.
> 41 To the leader. A Psalm of David.
> 42 To the leader. A Maskil of the Korahites.
> 44 To the leader. Of the Korahites. A Maskil.
> 45 To the leader: according to Lilies. Of the Korahites. A Maskil. A love song.
> 46 To the leader. Of the Korahites. According to Alamoth. A Song.
> 47 To the leader. Of the Korahites. A Psalm.
> 48 A Song. A Psalm of the Korahites.
> 49 To the leader. Of the Korahites. A Psalm.
> 50 A Psalm of Asaph.
> 51 To the leader. A Psalm of David, when the prophet Nathan came to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.
> 52 To the leader. A Maskil of David, when Doeg the Edomite came to Saul and said to him, "David has come to the house of Ahimelech."
> 53 To the leader: according to Mahalath. A Maskil of David.
> 54 To the leader: with stringed instruments. A Maskil of David, when the Ziphites went and told Saul, "David is in hiding among us."
> 55 To the leader: with stringed instruments. A Maskil of David.
> 56 To the leader: according to The Dove on Far-off Terebinths. Of David. A Miktam, when the Philistines seized him in Gath.
> 57 To the leader: Do Not Destroy. Of David. A Miktam, when he fled from Saul, in the cave.
> 58 To the leader: Do Not Destroy. Of David. A Miktam.
> 59 To the leader: Do Not Destroy. Of David. A Miktam, when Saul ordered his house to be watched in order to kill him.
> 60 To the leader: according to the Lily of the Covenant. A Miktam of David; for instruction; when he struggled with Aram-naharaim and with Aram-zobah, and when Joab on his return killed twelve thousand Edomites in the Valley of Salt.
> 61 To the leader: with stringed instruments. Of David.
> 62 To the leader: according to Jeduthun. A Psalm of David.
> 63 A Psalm of David, when he was in the Wilderness of Judah.
> 64 To the leader. A Psalm of David.
> 65 To the leader. A Psalm of David. A Song.
> 66 To the leader. A Song. A Psalm.
> 67 To the leader: with stringed instruments. A Psalm. A Song.
> 68 To the leader. Of David. A Psalm. A Song.
> 69 To the leader: according to Lilies. Of David.
> 70 To the leader. Of David, for the memorial offering.
> 72 Of Solomon.
> 73 A Psalm of Asaph.
> 74 A Maskil of Asaph.
> 75 To the leader: Do Not Destroy. A Psalm of Asaph. A Song.
> 76 To the leader: with stringed instruments. A Psalm of Asaph. A Song.
> 77 To the leader: according to Jeduthun. Of Asaph. A Psalm.
> 78 A Maskil of Asaph.
> 79 A Psalm of Asaph.
> 80 To the leader: on Lilies, a Covenant. Of Asaph. A Psalm.
> 81 To the leader: according to The Gittith. Of Asaph.
> 82 A Psalm of Asaph.
> 83 A Song. A Psalm of Asaph.
> 84 To the leader: according to The Gittith. Of the Korahites. A Psalm.
> 85 To the leader. Of the Korahites. A Psalm.
> 86 A Prayer of David.
> 87 Of the Korahites. A Psalm. A Song.
> 88 A Song. A Psalm of the Korahites. To the leader: according to Mahalath Leannoth. A Maskil of Heman the Ezrahite.
> 89 A Maskil of Ethan the Ezrahite.
> 90 A Prayer of Moses, the man of God.
> 92 A Psalm. A Song for the Sabbath Day.
> 98 A Psalm.
> 100 A Psalm of thanksgiving.
> 101 Of David. A Psalm.
> 102 A prayer of one afflicted, when faint and pleading before the Lord.
> 103 Of David.
> 108 A Song. A Psalm of David.
> 109 To the leader. Of David. A Psalm.
> 110 Of David. A Psalm.
> 120 A Song of Ascents.
> 121 A Song of Ascents.
> 122 A Song of Ascents. Of David.
> 123 A Song of Ascents.
> 124 A Song of Ascents. Of David.
> 125 A Song of Ascents.
> 126 A Song of Ascents.
> 127 A Song of Ascents. Of Solomon.
> 128 A Song of Ascents.
> 129 A Song of Ascents.
> 130 A Song of Ascents.
> 131 A Song of Ascents. Of David.
> 132 A Song of Ascents.
> 133 A Song of Ascents.
> 134 A Song of Ascents.
> 138 Of David.
> 139 To the leader. Of David. A Psalm.
> 140 To the leader. A Psalm of David.
> 141 A Psalm of David.
> 142 A Maskil of David. When he was in the cave. A Prayer.
> 143 A Psalm of David.
> 144 Of David.
> 145 raise. Of David.





116 of the Psalms have titles or superscriptions at the beginning. 
(The 34 Psalms that do not have titles are sometimes called "orphan" Psalms.) 

The authorship of over 100 Psalms is given in the titles. David's name is listed in the titles of 73 Psalms; this may mean that he is the actual author of all of those 73 Psalms, or in some cases it may mean that the Psalm was dedicated to him. The titles tell us also that the following men wrote Psalms: Moses (one), Solomon (two), Asaph and the Asaphites (twelve), the Sons of Korah (twelve), Heman (one), and Ethan (one).

What should we glean from this Matt ? Help my unbelief.


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## crhoades

> _Originally posted by webmaster_
> I think a helpful study would be to go through the superscriptions and titles of the Psalter.



http://members.aol.com/Puritanone/songs.html


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## Saiph

So the Psalms contain all three categories. Has anyone broken down the Psalms by superscription between Psalm, Hymn, and Ode ?

Are they categorically distinct ?

If not these are generic terms. Are there three Hebrew words ?


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## Saiph

Actually, there are only two New Testament references to Psalms, Hymns, and Spiritual Songs. I just checked my concordance. And, unless I am missing something concerning basic hermeneutics (which I am no expert at), the context of neither Colossians 3, or Ephesians 5, is the corporate worship of the church.


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## crhoades

> _Originally posted by Saiph_
> Actually, there are only two New Testament references to Psalms, Hymns, and Spiritual Songs. I just checked my concordance. And, unless I am missing something concerning basic hermeneutics (which I am no expert at), the context of neither Colossians 3, or Ephesians 5, is the corporate worship of the church.



So if you apply a covenantal hermeneutic to this case in worship (like I know you do theonomically) that you assume continuity unless specific warrant in Scripture sets things aside...What was used in OT and synagogue worship when it came to song?


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## Saiph

Chris, in my RPW (Anglican), what is acceptable in private worship, is also acceptable in public worship. Ergo, I do not have the problem of that distinction that certain advocates on this board imply. So Eph. 5 and Col 3 apply.

But can those who hold to the Williamson interpretation of RPW have the same music in private and public ? Or do they in fact listen to different worship music in private and public worship ? 

And to answer your question, OT and synagogue worship when it came to song? Up to the Maccabean period and after surely included the Psalms, but exclusively ? I do not know for sure.

[Edited on 10-21-2005 by Saiph]


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## just_grace

None...


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## crhoades

> _Originally posted by just_grace_
> None...



Why do you think that? So there is no difference between hymns and songs in that context. What about between hymns/songs and psalms? Does it seem likely that Paul when listing out psalms, hymns, and songs that he meant psalms and {hymns/songs}? I could see him either having all three words mean the same thing or having all of them be separate, distinct things. 

I understand that everyone has assertions on these matters, I'm trying to get into people's reasonings - what hermeneutical principle are we using to determine either the three are one, three are three, or three are 2.


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## fredtgreco

> _Originally posted by crhoades_
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by just_grace_
> None...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you think that? So there is no difference between hymns and songs in that context. What about between hymns/songs and psalms? Does it seem likely that Paul when listing out psalms, hymns, and songs that he meant psalms and {hymns/songs}? I could see him either having all three words mean the same thing or having all of them be separate, distinct things.
> 
> I understand that everyone has assertions on these matters, I'm trying to get into people's reasonings - what hermeneutical principle are we using to determine either the three are one, three are three, or three are 2.
Click to expand...


Chris,

I've argued this in another context (and have NO wish to reenter that), but "hymn" had a very technical and defined meaning in Greek culture. I think that it is most likely that "song" here is the broadest category, inclusive of both psalms and hymns, but including other songs as well. All are "spiritual" - i.e. with reference to content, not inspiration.


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## crhoades

> _Originally posted by fredtgreco_Chris,
> 
> I've argued this in another context (and have NO wish to reenter that), but "hymn" had a very technical and defined meaning in Greek culture.


Time to go digging in the archives!



> I think that it is most likely that "song" here is the broadest category, inclusive of both psalms and hymns, but including other songs as well.
> 
> All are "spiritual" - i.e. with reference to content, not inspiration.



So would you interpret the passage as spiritual as modifying all three words?

What is your take on whether these exhortations were relating to corporate worship vs. just exhorting and building up the brethren?

{Disclaimer: I realize that EP has been beaten silly - just trying to get a handle on a couple of the arguments}


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## fredtgreco

* brief answer *

Joshua,

I've written a great deal on this very question in the many, many, many, many (get the idea) EP threads. Basically, we have absolutely no way of knowing that the "superscriptions" in the Psalter, let alone the Septuagint, even existed in Paul's day. It is complete conjecture. It may be a warrented one, but because they are not inspired, and we have absolutely no evidence that they did (outside of the presuppositional appeal by EPers to the texts of Col 3:16 and Eph 5:19). That is the first thing.

Second, there is an absolute ton of literaure that clearly identifies the word "hymn" ( Ï…Ì”Î¼Î½Î¿Ï‚ ) as a specific type of Greek literature. The average Greek could likely recite large sections of Homer or Hesiod. In fact, it is much more likely that any one living in Colosse or Ephesus from a Gentile background would be more familiar with Homer or Hesiod (or even Pindar) than they would the Septaugint. The culture fact (attested to clearly by Paul) was that the average Greek thought that the Jew was weird, and his "writings" even weirder. They would not have made any effort to read the Septaugint. In fact, they could not read at all. So in order for us to assume that they understood the word hymn in its Septuagint superscription context, we would need to assume that they were in a church for long enough not only to hear the Septuagint psalter read through, but read hrough enough times to "get" the superscription thing. A huge assumption, in my opinion, because they would not have the MASSIVE advantage we have of leafing through our bibles and comparing texts. They would not own a bible, and if they did, they couldn't read it. So it would take an enormous amount of repetition to see the pattern - especially since there are more psalms *without* superscription than with superscription.

But the "Greek" context of hymn would be completely familiar. It is as if I say to you, "do you know that Battle Hymn of __________ ?" You think "Republic" without a second thought. How about the "Star Spangled _________" You think "Banner" without a second thought. Why? Because you have been exposed to that since childhood, and it is an integral part of your culture. My children know the answer, evne before they could read. That is what "hymn" was like for the Greeks.


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## just_grace

You lot get hung up becaues you lack the Spirit, I do not say that you do not have it, but you lack it in it's fulness. Pull me on fulness, let me change that, to that, you seem to be unempowered.

Law Law Law.... I do not mean to be rude. For me a lot of the questions asked here are proof that you lack, just like me the Spirit of God. Always doubting, always asking and never receiving. Is God dead? Answer is a big emphatic NO.

Sorry, I am tired and am very frustrated with a lot of things at the moment.

David

David


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## Kaalvenist

The word hymn (_humnos_) is used in the Septuagint, frequently in the titles for the Psalms. John Murray, in the Minority Report on Song in Worship submitted to the OPC GA, said, "Of the 17 Old Testament instances [of the word hymn, _humnos_] 13 occur in the Book of Psalms and 6 of these are in the titles."

Paul quoted the OT five times in his Epistle to the Ephesians (Eph. 4:8, cf. Ps. 68:18; Eph. 4:25, cf. Zech. 8:16; Eph. 4:26, cf. Ps. 4:4; Eph. 5:31, cf. Gen. 2:24; Eph. 6:2-3, cf. Deut. 5:16). Out of these five quotes, four are demonstrably from the Septuagint. This is because the Septuagint in those places differs slightly from the Masoretic, and Paul follows the Septuagint rendering. The only exception (Eph. 4:25, cf. Zech. 8:16) is a passage where the Masoretic, Septuagint, and New Testament all agree. Given the other four occasions, it seems most natural that Paul was, in all of these instances, quoting from the Septuagint (which happened to agree with the Masoretic in Zech. 8:16).

I cannot see that Paul would bother to quote from a text with which his readers were not familiar. This tends to argue for the fact that the Ephesian Christians, Gentile though they were, were familiar with the Old Testament text, and specifically with the Septuagint translation of the OT. The fact that he quotes twice from the Psalms (in the Septuagint) argues that they had familiarity with the Psalms in that translation.

To those that would argue that the Ephesians understood these terms (psalms, hymns, songs) with their pagan connotations because of their Gentile background, I would reply that the above facts point toward understanding the Ephesians as already a part of the "Christian culture." They were familiar with phrases, terms, concepts, and passages of Scripture common to Christians, and uncommon to pagans (or, if they were common terms, they were given special Christian meaning). We should therefore turn to Scripture (OT Septuagint) to see how these special terms would have been used by Paul to convey meaning to the Ephesian Christians.


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## Saiph

Chris, are you an advocate of EP ? Or considering it ?
As a fellow Bahnsen reader, have you read his paper on it ?


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## crhoades

> _Originally posted by Saiph_
> Chris, are you an advocate of EP ? Or considering it ?
> As a fellow Bahnsen reader, have you read his paper on it ?



Currently not an advocate of EP. I do use them solely for family worship and the church I attend sings psalms in every service (other songs as well). Considering it? Not undertaking a huge study at this point but have some questions that I've been trying to work out in my head. The 2 that I've brought up are trying to get a tight definition on what people define hymn and song as and why and if as you brought up those verses are not involving corporate worship then do we stick to the psalter as in OT worship? I do have pains that there is no uniformity in worship in Presbyterian/Reformed denominations as a whole. Except for the denoms that are EP, you really don't know what you will walk into on any Sunday morning if you travel around. One of the goals of the Westminster Assembly was to establish and purify worship in a uniform way. The PCA did not adopt the Directory for Public Worship though...Oh well...There is a part of me that wonders, "What if all OPC and PCA churches _were_ EP? Would that not unify us more? Would we lose anything?" Not setting forth arguments here - just musings...

Bahnsen? I could do a search and show where I posted that very article on an older EP thread. Much to read and learn. At this point, there are no EP churches within a driving distance. I'm not heading off to seminary for a season. I need to make sure I have other ecclesiological issues hammered out as well as good systematic foundations before I die on the EP hill.


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## fredtgreco

> _Originally posted by Kaalvenist_
> The word hymn (_humnos_) is used in the Septuagint, frequently in the titles for the Psalms. John Murray, in the Minority Report on Song in Worship submitted to the OPC GA, said, "Of the 17 Old Testament instances [of the word hymn, _humnos_] 13 occur in the Book of Psalms and 6 of these are in the titles."
> 
> Paul quoted the OT five times in his Epistle to the Ephesians (Eph. 4:8, cf. Ps. 68:18; Eph. 4:25, cf. Zech. 8:16; Eph. 4:26, cf. Ps. 4:4; Eph. 5:31, cf. Gen. 2:24; Eph. 6:2-3, cf. Deut. 5:16). Out of these five quotes, four are demonstrably from the Septuagint. This is because the Septuagint in those places differs slightly from the Masoretic, and Paul follows the Septuagint rendering. The only exception (Eph. 4:25, cf. Zech. 8:16) is a passage where the Masoretic, Septuagint, and New Testament all agree. Given the other four occasions, it seems most natural that Paul was, in all of these instances, quoting from the Septuagint (which happened to agree with the Masoretic in Zech. 8:16).
> 
> I cannot see that Paul would bother to quote from a text with which his readers were not familiar. This tends to argue for the fact that the Ephesian Christians, Gentile though they were, were familiar with the Old Testament text, and specifically with the Septuagint translation of the OT. The fact that he quotes twice from the Psalms (in the Septuagint) argues that they had familiarity with the Psalms in that translation.
> 
> To those that would argue that the Ephesians understood these terms (psalms, hymns, songs) with their pagan connotations because of their Gentile background, I would reply that the above facts point toward understanding the Ephesians as already a part of the "Christian culture." They were familiar with phrases, terms, concepts, and passages of Scripture common to Christians, and uncommon to pagans (or, if they were common terms, they were given special Christian meaning). We should therefore turn to Scripture (OT Septuagint) to see how these special terms would have been used by Paul to convey meaning to the Ephesian Christians.



Thanks for the same tired argument. I can certainly see how six instances of a word would outdo millennia of cultural understanding.


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## Saiph

> and why and if as you brought up those verses are not involving corporate worship then do we stick to the psalter as in OT worship?



Another issue I just thought of a minute ago is, why, in the N.T when Jesus says Law And Prophets, do we not see more words to describe what those two things actually are ? Yet, Psalter in the O.T. needs qualification by three words . . . Psalms, Hymns, And Spiritual Songs ?

Wouldn't it have been easier, if Paul would have simply said Psalms ?


[Edited on 10-21-2005 by Saiph]


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## Saiph

> Isa 38:20 The LORD will save me, and we will play *my music* (the hymn preceding this verse) on stringed instruments all the days of our lives, *at the house of the LORD*.



I guess God forgot to include Hezekiah's hymns in the Psalter.


[Edited on 10-21-2005 by Saiph]


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## crhoades

> _Originally posted by Saiph_
> 
> 
> 
> Isa 38:20 The LORD will save me, and we will play *my music* (the hymn preceding this verse) on stringed instruments all the days of our lives, *at the house of the LORD*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess God forgot to include Hezekiah's hymns in the Psalter.
> 
> 
> [Edited on 10-21-2005 by Saiph]
Click to expand...


at the house of the Lord, not in it The hymn was like the guy outside the concert playing for change in the open guitar case while the band is inside rocking out. 

(hopefully by this point, I don't have to explain my levels of sarcasm!)


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## VirginiaHuguenot

crhoades said:


> http://members.aol.com/Puritanone/songs.html



This thread may be of interest.


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