# Covenant Children?



## refbaptdude (Aug 10, 2005)

I am not asking this question as a topic of debate "“ informative only.

Will my paedobaptist brothers please describe what they mean by "œcovenant children"?

What kind of expressions do you use to describe covenant children? Do you call them a Christian, God´s possession, etc.?


Thanks,
Steve


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## Contra_Mundum (Aug 10, 2005)

Covenant children are those children, belonging to adult members of the church, who have this promise attached: "I will be God to thee, and to thy seed after thee" (Gen. 17:7; Acts 2:39).


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## refbaptdude (Aug 10, 2005)

I understand the way paedobaptists see the covenant promises, but what do you call the children?

Christians?


Thanks,
Steve


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## Contra_Mundum (Aug 10, 2005)

I tell my children "we" are Christians. I "command" my children to keep the way of the Lord (Gen. 18:19). We discipline them in the fear and admonishon of the Lord. I inform them of Christ the only way of salvation, of the necessity of the Holy Spirit, and of the Father's forgiveness. We pray with and for them, directing their attention to the God of the Scriptures. We tell them they have God's sign of ownership upon them (baptism). This is a great privilege: being counted in the church, but also an awful responsibility.


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## refbaptdude (Aug 10, 2005)

Bruce,

You seem to be skirting the question : )

What do you call them in particular?

Are THEY Christians?

And any other language used would be most helpful.

Thanks,
Steve


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## Scott Bushey (Aug 10, 2005)

Ditto to Bruce's posts above.

Steve, 
They ARE Christians.

Chapter XXVIII
Of Baptism
I. Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ,[1] not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible Church;[2] but also to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace,[3] of his ingrafting into Christ,[4] of regeneration,[5] of remission of sins,[6] and of his giving up unto God, through Jesus Christ, to walk in the newness of life.[7] Which sacrament is, by Christ's own appointment, to be continued in His Church until the end of the world.[8]

Chapter XXV
Of the Church
I. The catholic or universal Church, which is invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ the Head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fulness of Him that fills all in all.[1]

II. The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the Gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), *consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion;[2] and of their children:[3] and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ,[4] the house and family of God,*[5] out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation.[6]


[1] EPH 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him. 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. COL 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

[2] 1CO 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours. 1CO 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. PSA 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. REV 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. ROM 15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. 10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. 11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. 12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

[3] 1CO 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. ACT 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. EZE 16:20 Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter, 21 That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them? ROM 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. GEN 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

[4] MAT 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind. ISA 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

[5] EPH 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God. 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named.

[6] ACT 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

[7] 1CO 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. EPH 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. MAT 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. ISA 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.

[8] ROM 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. REV 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

[9] (REV 2-3 throughout) 1CO 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us.



[Edited on 8-10-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## SolaScriptura (Aug 10, 2005)

Now you're getting it!


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## refbaptdude (Aug 10, 2005)

Scott,

Thanks for the straight forward answer. 

Do you tell your child "œyou are a Christian"?

Besides "œChristian" what other terminology is used?

Saints, chosen in God, beloved of God, in Christ, etc..?

Grace to All,
Steve


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## Scott Bushey (Aug 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by refbaptdude_
> Scott,
> 
> Thanks for the straight forward answer.
> ...



I do tell her she is a Christian. I use the same terminology towards her that Abraham used in regards to his children.............


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## R. Scott Clark (Aug 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by refbaptdude_
> Scott,
> 
> Do you tell your child "œyou are a Christian"?
> ...



What did Abraham call Isaac? A covenant child. 

That's what we call our children. Implicit in the question, I think, is the assumption that we must decide whether our children are regenerate before "naming" them. If that is the assumption, it is one we do not share.

We call our children Christians. We call them saints; we call them everything Scripture calls those who bear the name of Christ. Does that mean that every single person of whom Paul said, "elect" or "saints" etc is actually regenerate? Its pretty clear from the NT that is not the case. 

I told my children (who have made profession of faith), 

"You've been baptized into the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. You belong to Jesus who died to save his his people. It's not magic, however, You need to recognize your sins and trust in the Savior."

We recognize (contra the Federal Visionaries) that there have always been two ways of being in the covenant of grace, externally only and externally and internally. Every baptized person is in the covenant of grace externally, but not every baptized person has personally apprehended what Caspar Olevian called "the substance of the covenant of grace," sola gratia, sola fide, solo Christo. Those who have apprehended the substance are in the covenant of grace internally too. 

Those baptized persons, however, who show themselves by their profession or lives to be unbelieving and impenitently so, show themselves to be hypocrites and wrongly named "Christians." These persons should come under discipline in the hope that, by placing them under the law, they will recognize their sin and put their trust in Christ.

We are confident, nevertheless, that all God's elect shall come to saving faith and we believe that God's promise ("I will be your God and your children's God") belongs to us and to our children. We baptize and name our children as Christians in the hope, prayer, and expectation that God will honor that promise in our families. 

For more see http://public.csusm.edu/guests/rsclark/Infant_Baptism.html

So, what do Baptists call their unbaptized children? 

rsc


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## Scott Bushey (Aug 10, 2005)

Dr. Clark,
Looks like we are on the same page!


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## refbaptdude (Aug 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by R. Scott Clark_
> 
> So, what do Baptists call their unbaptized children?
> 
> rsc




Dr. Clark,

I´m sure you are somewhat familiar with Reformed Baptist terminology in relation to our children with a number of RB´s on the Westminster West Campus : )

We tell our children that they have great and awesome privileges by being raised in a Christian home and in the life of the church, but privileges do not mean possession. We evangelize our children by teaching them God´s Word and the Gospel, we use the Law of God to drive them to Christ and we catechize them (Gal. 3:24). 

We do not tell our children that they are Christians or baptize them until they express faith/repentance toward Christ and give evidence that they are born again (John 1:12-13, 3:3-8; Matthew 7:20; 12:33; Acts 2:38-41). 

Until they profess Christ we tell them that they are "œin Adam", "œchildren of the devil", "œdead in their sins", "œseparate from Christ, excluded from covenant people of God, have no hope and without God in the world" and "œon their way to hell" (Eph. 2:1-12).

See Jonathan Edwards Evangelist by John H. Gerstner chapter 4 "œPreaching to Young Vipers."

Grace and Peace,
Steve 


Heb 2:13
13	And again, "I will put My trust in Him." And again, "Behold, I and the children whom God has given Me."
(NAS)


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## Scott Bushey (Aug 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by refbaptdude_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by R. Scott Clark_
> ...



Steve,
Does 'confession' equal conversion?


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## Contra_Mundum (Aug 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by refbaptdude_
> Bruce,
> 
> You seem to be skirting the question : )
> ...


Steve,
I certainly didn't mean to skirt it, but to answer fully. I'm sorry it came off like an evasion.

When I say "we" are Christians to my family, I mean that they (who are mine) are Christians, yes.

I say so on exactly the same basis (ultimately) that I call you a Christian--because you are a baptized member, in good standing, of a Bible-believing, gospel-preaching church. I have precisely the same hope for my children as I have for you.

I take your word for it.
I take my observations for it.
I take your church's word for it.
I take the people who know you--their word for it.
I take the child's spoken/unspoken word for it.
I take the parent's word for it (who knows better in this world?).
I take God's Word for it (his revealed Word, not his secret counsels).

Every one of these can either be wrong, misinterpreted, or misapplied. But we don't see the heart of any man--old or young, so we cannot judge the heart.

We act in faith.
We act in obedience.
We act in charity, hoping all things and believing all things.


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## blhowes (Aug 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by R. Scott Clark_
> For more see http://public.csusm.edu/guests/rsclark/Infant_Baptism.html



<trying not to stray too far off topic>

Interesting reading. I'm trying to go through it slowly and understand each point before moving along.

Towards the beginning, Dr. Clark says:


> The Passover feast was restricted to those who are able to understand God's redeeming acts because it was a sign designed to nurture and lead to growth.


I was wondering if somebody could help me find a verse/passage that supports that. Verses in Exodus 12 say that an Israelite or a stranger has to be circumcised before they could partake of the passover, but I haven't found anything yet that talks about them having some level of understanding before partaking.

[Edited on 8-10-2005 by blhowes]


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## Scott Bushey (Aug 10, 2005)

Exo 12:23 For the LORD will pass through to strike the Egyptians, and when he sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the LORD will pass over the door and will not allow the destroyer to enter your houses to strike you. 
Exo 12:24 You shall observe this rite as a statute for you and for your sons forever. 
Exo 12:25 And when you come to the land that the LORD will give you, as he has promised, you shall keep this service. 
Exo 12:26 And when your children say to you, 'What do you mean by this service?' 
Exo 12:27 you shall say, 'It is the sacrifice of the LORD's Passover, for he passed over the houses of the people of Israel in Egypt, when he struck the Egyptians but spared our houses.'" And the people bowed their heads and worshiped.


http://www.fpcr.org/blue_banner_articles/meanye1.htm


[Edited on 8-10-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## blhowes (Aug 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> Exo 12:23 For the LORD will pass through to strike the Egyptians, and when he sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the LORD will pass over the door and will not allow the destroyer to enter your houses to strike you.
> Exo 12:24 You shall observe this rite as a statute for you and for your sons forever.
> Exo 12:25 And when you come to the land that the LORD will give you, as he has promised, you shall keep this service.
> ...


Thanks for your response.

Do those verses imply that they couldn't partake of the passover? How would this differ from a child, baptized as an infant, who later asks about the meaning of their baptism (or in the OT somebody who asks the meaning of their circumcision)?

Edit:
Thanks also for the link. I didn't see it when I responded to your scriptures - it looks like the article may answer my question.

[Edited on 8-10-2005 by blhowes]


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## refbaptdude (Aug 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> Steve,
> Does 'confession' equal conversion?



Scott,

Could you explain more of what you are asking?

Thanks,
Steve


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## Contra_Mundum (Aug 10, 2005)

In the case of circumcision, the appropriate question would be, "Why am I circumcised?" As for the Passover, the contents of the meal itself preclude the youngest from eating it anyway. So at some point the youth are included. When? Does he ask "What are *you* doing in this ritual (service)?" with his "mouth full," so to speak? The language doesn't absolutely forbid that interpretation. But it is more resonant with the language to suppose an _observation_ of this different sort of meal/ritual, followed by an inquiry, "What do *you* mean by this service?"

When he comprehends (i.e. discerns) it, then he is included. There is good argument for thinking that the Bar/Bat-Mitzvah ceremony (compare Jesus' examination before the elders at age 12) was the standard date of inclusion, after which upon every Passover season all males were expected to attend Jerusalem for the keeping of the feast.


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## Scott Bushey (Aug 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by refbaptdude_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> ...



In other words, does _confession_ prove one's position in Christ?


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## refbaptdude (Aug 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> 
> In other words, does _confession_ prove one's position in Christ?



If it is just confession by itself the answer would be no

I do not know any Christian group who believes it does.


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