# WSC and Postmillenialism



## KMK (Sep 5, 2007)

Would the answer to Q 102 of the Westminster Shorter imply postmillenial leanings among the divines?



> Q. 102. What do we pray for in the second petition?
> A. In the second petition, which is, Thy kingdom come, we pray that *Satan’s kingdom may be destroyed; and that the kingdom of grace may be advanced*, ourselves and others brought into it, and kept in it; and that the kingdom of glory may be hastened.



Does it smack of the 'golden age' of postmil?


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## Calvibaptist (Sep 5, 2007)

Since John MacArthur interprets it the same way, I would doubt that it is limited to a post-millenial view. Although, he does add to that thought the bodily return of Christ as complete fulfillment of the request.


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## wsw201 (Sep 5, 2007)

KMK said:


> Would the answer to Q 102 of the Westminster Shorter imply postmillenial leanings among the divines?
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I think it wold be a bit of a stretch to say it shows some sort of postie leanings on the part of the Divines. 

But it does seem to show that they had a two Kingdom view, ie; Kingdom of Satan (the world), the Kingdom of Grace (the Church militant) and the Kingdom of Glory (the church triumphant).


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## AV1611 (Sep 5, 2007)

KMK said:


> Would the answer to Q 102 of the Westminster Shorter imply postmillenial leanings among the divines?
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I do not think so. There is nothing postmillennial about it.


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## tcalbrecht (Sep 5, 2007)

wsw201 said:


> KMK said:
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> > Would the answer to Q 102 of the Westminster Shorter imply postmillenial leanings among the divines?
> ...



Isn't that a three kingdom view??

The postmil flavor comes through a bit better in the WLC Q 191.



> Q. 191. What do we pray for in the second petition?
> 
> A. In the second petition (which is, Thy kingdom come), acknowledging ourselves and all mankind to be by nature under the dominion of sin and Satan, we pray, *that the kingdom of sin and Satan may be destroyed, the gospel propagated throughout the world,* the Jews called, the fullness of the Gentiles brought in; *the church furnished with all gospel officers and ordinances, purged from corruption, countenanced and maintained by the civil magistrate*; that the ordinances of Christ may be purely dispensed, and made effectual to the converting of those that are yet in their sins, and the confirming, comforting, and building up of those that are already converted: that Christ would rule in our hearts here, and hasten the time of his second coming, and our reigning with him forever: *and that he would be pleased so to exercise the kingdom of his power in all the world*, as may best conduce to these ends.



How can the world be equivalent to the kingdom of Satan if we are enjoined to pray that Christ would "exercise the kingdom of his power in all the world"?


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## RamistThomist (Sep 5, 2007)

The passages makes it hard for some pessimistic amillennialists. It does not prove postmillennialism, per se, but places an unbearable stress on certain amillennial formulations. It denies a static view of history. If you believe "the world is getting worse" you have to take exception to this point.


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## AV1611 (Sep 5, 2007)

Spear Dane said:


> If you believe "the world is getting worse" you have to take exception to this point.



I beg to differ.


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## RamistThomist (Sep 5, 2007)

If I were a postmill, I would force the debate on this question. Modern day amillennialism, with it's staticised history, and uncertainty of Christ's victory in history--indeed, if the only way Christ can be victorious in history is by getting rid of history at the second coming--simply cannot square with the divines.


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## RamistThomist (Sep 5, 2007)

AV1611 said:


> Spear Dane said:
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> > If you believe "the world is getting worse" you have to take exception to this point.
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Yes you do. That is a clear contradiction with the confessions.


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## AV1611 (Sep 5, 2007)

Spear Dane said:


> Yes you do. That is a clear contradiction with the confessions.



Is Satan's kingdom earthly? Is Christ's kingdom earthly? You are reading into it an optimistic eschatology.

The Heidelberg Catechism:

*Question 123. What is the second petition?
A. *_Thy kingdom come._ That is: So rule us by Thy Word and Spirit that more and more we submit to Thee.*[1]* Preserve and increase Thy church.*[2]* Destroy the works of the devil, every power that raises itself against Thee, and every conspiracy against Thy holy Word.*[3]* Do all this until the fulness of Thy kingdom comes, wherein Thou shalt be all in all.*[4]

[1]* Psa_119:5; Psa_119:105; Psa_143:10; Mat_6:33. 
*[2]* Psa_51:18; Psa_122:6-9; Mat_16:18; Act_2:42-47. 
*[3]* Rom_16:20; 1Jo_3:8. 
*[4]* Rom_8:22-23; 1Co_15:28; Rev_22:17; Rev_22:20.


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## wsw201 (Sep 5, 2007)

Spear Dane said:


> AV1611 said:
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Lets not forget that this is the second petition of a prayer. Amils have no problem praying for the advancement of the church.

Tom,

I mentioned it as a two kingdom view based on Fishers catechism. I initially considered it a 3 kingdom view as well, but Fisher lumps the Kingom of Glory with the Kingdom of Grace as basically one since they both reference the church, which makes sense.


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## KMK (Sep 5, 2007)

Spear Dane said:


> The passages makes it hard for some pessimistic amillennialists.



Which passages? The Shorter and Longer catechisms? 

Are you saying that these catechism questions make it hard for somoene to be amil and still hold to the Westmister Standards?


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## RamistThomist (Sep 5, 2007)

AV1611 said:


> Spear Dane said:
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> > Yes you do. That is a clear contradiction with the confessions.
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I am premillennial. I am definitely NOT reading an optimistic eschatology into it. 



> The Heidelberg Catechism:
> 
> *Question 123. What is the second petition?
> A. *_Thy kingdom come._ That is: So rule us by Thy Word and Spirit that more and more we submit to Thee.*[1]* Preserve and increase Thy church.*[2]* Destroy the works of the devil, every power that raises itself against Thee, and every conspiracy against Thy holy Word.*[3]* Do all this until the fulness of Thy kingdom comes, wherein Thou shalt be all in all.*[4]
> ...



[/QUOTE]

Going back to the Shorter Catechism (the purpose of the thread), the Standards also see the magistrate ruling in such a way to allow for the propogatin of the gospel. So while Christ's kingdom is not earthly (actually, it might be. Modern discussions have so slandered the term "earthly" that it is not helpful), it takes place on earth and in time and history and affects earthly jurisidctions. 

Ken:
If by amillennialism you mean that the church age is the millennium, yes, they can affirm the standards. Modern amillennialism, which posits a "world is necessarily getting worse/the church is nothing but a mere remnant" is out of accord with the spirit of the Divines (Peter Toon, Iain Murray, Millennialism and Colonial Expections, to name a few works).


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## RamistThomist (Sep 5, 2007)

> every power that raises itself against Thee



Every power includes opposition from political powers (universal category A affirmative)
The destruction of opposing political states entails the rise of Christian republics (Calvinism's judicial ethics)


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## wsw201 (Sep 5, 2007)

Spear Dane said:


> > every power that raises itself against Thee
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Now you're really stretching!


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## RamistThomist (Sep 5, 2007)

wsw201 said:


> Spear Dane said:
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> > > every power that raises itself against Thee
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The first proposition still needs to be dealt with.
The second one was tongue-in-cheek


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## Archlute (Sep 5, 2007)

Ha, ha. When I read the thread title I was thinking "Westminster Seminary California and postmillenialism", and my answer to that (assuming that it was a question) was going to be "Not much!"


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