# Preaching at a PC(USA) church



## Backwoods Presbyterian (Sep 12, 2008)

I am preaching this Lord's Day at a PC(USA) church in the area and am struggling with how to preach without a) sounding like a snob, b) feeding them meat when I am not sure they can handle it, etc...

This may all sound silly and/or absurd but a little word from a more experienced brother would be appreciated. 

My text is Ex. 14:19-31


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## Pilgrim (Sep 12, 2008)

What, if anything, do you know about the church?


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## rescuedbyLove (Sep 12, 2008)




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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Sep 12, 2008)

Not much other than they have a Female pastor. From looking at the announcements in the bulletin for this Lord's Day they sent has an advertisement 



> Rev. Paul Holland [not the pastor at the church I am preaching] will be leading a study of the Parables of Jesus. He has been teaching the Parables from the perspective of a clinical psychologist, which throws an interesting and unique light on interpretations.



Pretty normal for a PC(USA) church.


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## Wooster (Sep 12, 2008)

Just wanted to say I'll keep you in prayer.



> He has been teaching the Parables from the perspective of a clinical psychologist, which throws an interesting and unique light on interpretations.


Oy vey. _Really_ praying.


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## Rev. Todd Ruddell (Sep 12, 2008)

Preach the Gospl--the hisotry of the reformation being about Justification by faith alone, and press Christ to their hearing. They have probably not heard the Gospel. Tell them what faith in Christ is: believing His Word, trusting in His merits alone, etc.

They have probably not heard a clear Gospel presentation--tell them the "bad news" and then tell them the "good news".


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## Kim G (Sep 12, 2008)

Woo them to Christ. That is how I learned to embrace the doctrines of grace. "Look at Who your God is! Look at Who your Savior is!" Look at His endless wrath. Look at his fathomless mercy.

When the Son of Man is lifted up, He will draw men to Himself.


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## Christusregnat (Sep 12, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> I am preaching this Lord's Day at a PC(USA) church in the area and am struggling with how to preach without a) sounding like a snob, b) feeding them meat when I am not sure they can handle it, etc...
> 
> This may all sound silly and/or absurd but a little word from a more experienced brother would be appreciated.
> 
> My text is Ex. 14:19-31



Benjamin,

What an _*excellent *_opportunity! Pray God it is not wasted on them.

I would encourage a few things:

1. Certainly the message of the goodness and severity of God is present in the passage: be not high minded, but fear.

2. The fact that these Israelites later rebelled (ala 1 Cor 10), and therefore, let us all beware of apostasy and false faith.

3. The fact of miracles, vs. the hollow unbelief of liberals (might be very appropriate; I don't know).

4. Clour and pillar; excellent symbols of divine covenant, providence and goodness.


As alluded to, I would make strong links between this passage and the NT counterparts, in order to illustrate that this isn't just a historic relic, but is the living word of God, able to judge us, not open for us to judge it.

God bless you,


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## Christusregnat (Sep 12, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> He has been teaching the Parables from the perspective of a clinical psychologist, which throws an interesting and unique light on interpretations.





The psychology of reprobation? 



> Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
> 11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, *but to them it has not been given*. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.


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## toddpedlar (Sep 12, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Not much other than they have a Female pastor. From looking at the announcements in the bulletin for this Lord's Day they sent has an advertisement
> 
> 
> 
> > Rev. Paul Holland [not the pastor at the church I am preaching] will be leading a study of the Parables of Jesus. He has been teaching the Parables from the perspective of a clinical psychologist, which throws an interesting and unique light on interpretations.



wow, I'll say - I bet that throws an _interesting_ light on the subject.


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## toddpedlar (Sep 12, 2008)

Christusregnat said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> > He has been teaching the Parables from the perspective of a clinical psychologist, which throws an interesting and unique light on interpretations.
> ...



reprowhat? Remember, this is a PCUSA church with a pastorette...


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## Christusregnat (Sep 12, 2008)

toddpedlar said:


> Christusregnat said:
> 
> 
> > Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> ...



LOL

Yeah, I was saying that the only "clinical psychology" I find in the parables is that of reprobation.... good poing though; reprowhat might get them confused...


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## Herald (Sep 12, 2008)

Rev. Todd Ruddell said:


> Preach the Gospl--the hisotry of the reformation being about Justification by faith alone, and press Christ to their hearing. They have probably not heard the Gospel. Tell them what faith in Christ is: believing His Word, trusting in His merits alone, etc.
> 
> They have probably not heard a clear Gospel presentation--tell them the "bad news" and then tell them the "good news".



Amen! Preach the gospel without apology or second guessing. I'd preach in the Mormon temple if they'd allow me. And unlike Mouw, I would not be seeking dialog. "Preach the word. Be ready in season and out of season."

Praying for you.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Sep 12, 2008)

Ben,

I would approach it typologically, and reference 1 Corinthians 10 to illumine the import of it. May the living Savior call His elect out of that congregation to Himself through your preaching. Even if only one sees Him with eyes of faith, and cleaves to Him, there will be rejoicing in Heaven.

I'll pray for that.

Steve


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## jfschultz (Sep 12, 2008)

Consider the "small" things you can include. They probably get something like "listen for the word of god" every week. You make your stand clear with something like "listen *to* the Word of God."


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## Marrow Man (Sep 12, 2008)

Benjamin, just faithfully handle the word and point them to Christ. From our end, we will be praying that the Holy Spirit will open their hearts to receive His word.

Besides, this is simply a powerful verse to end with: "When Israel saw the great power which the LORD had used against the Egyptians, the people feared the LORD, and they believed in the LORD and in His servant Moses." That verse preaches to you in this situation!

Something of interest; it's been a while since I've looked at the passage, but I believe that there is an interesting use of a Hebrew verb here. The word (I believe it's translated "overthrew" in the NASB; it literally means "swallowed") is only used one other time in Exodus, in 6:12 -- "But Aaron's staff _swallowed_ up their staffs" (there's a lot of interesting Hebrew terminology in chapter 6). Anyway, the sign of Aaron's staff/serpent swallow those of Pharaoh's magicians functions as a sort of foreshadowing of what he will do to Egypt in the end (sort of bookends of the 10 plagues). The people can either flee to God's man (Moses functioning as a type of Christ) or be swallowed up in His wrath like the Egyptians.

*Correction:* The Hebrew verb I was thinking of is actually in Exodus 15:12 -- "You stretched out Your right hand, the earth swallowed them." A different verb is used for "overthrown" in chapter 14. My bad.


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## FrielWatcher (Sep 12, 2008)

New church to be at. Go through the ten commandments with direct application - like witnessing from the pulpit. Go to their hearts pressing it hard that the judgment against each person will be standard - the ten commandments? Have you broken them. Have you lied, I have lied. A man who lies is a liar. And so on lust is adultery, anger is murder. Bring the weight of the law upon them then a bit about the Gospel to leave them thinking about REPROBATION on their way home. 

Or just go completely topical with 8 ways Exodus shows us how to grow our business. 

May the LORD guide your writing and thinking and the Holy Spirit give you power when you do preach.


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## Mushroom (Sep 12, 2008)

No advice any better than others have already given, just want you to know I'll be praying for you, that God would use you in His harvest.


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## Grymir (Sep 12, 2008)

Hi Backwoods! You are so lucky! I dream of being able to do such a thing in my church. I would be full tilt hell-fire and brimstone, bring the full severity of the law and the full sweetness of the gospel. Of course, these people know me, and anything less and they would be disappointed with me!  The ideas of Christusregnat that he listed -

1. Certainly the message of the goodness and severity of God is present in the passage: be not high minded, but fear.

2. The fact that these Israelites later rebelled (ala 1 Cor 10), and therefore, let us all beware of apostasy and false faith.

3. The fact of miracles, vs. the hollow unbelief of liberals (might be very appropriate; I don't know).

would be a very good frame work for a sermon. I had the chance at my Old Disciples of Christ church to do a sermon, and I used a passage of Isaiah to contrast what liberals say about the Bible and what God says about people who say such things. 

I oft quip to my pastor to 'give em hell sir' before his sermons, but we've never heard of hell from the pulpit. I'm used to full tilt hell-fire and brimstone sermons, but PCUSA aren't. It won't take much to get the point across.


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## Kevin (Sep 12, 2008)

My advice is, preach the gospel. 

Preach it simply. 

Avoid a "theology lecture".

Pray (alot).


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## DMcFadden (Sep 12, 2008)

1. What is the anticipated size of the audience?
2. Who picked the text? Do PCUSA pastors use a Lectionary? Was it a sermon you have "in the can" or a new one for you?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Sep 12, 2008)

DMcFadden said:


> 1. What is the anticipated size of the audience?
> 2. Who picked the text? Do PCUSA pastors use a Lectionary? Was it a sermon you have "in the can" or a new one for you?



1.) Around 100

2.) I did, it is the OT section of the PC(USA) Lectionary for the week. And if given a choice I always preach on the OT text for a couple of reasons.

3.) New Sermon


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## DMcFadden (Sep 12, 2008)

Ryken and Hughes open their exposition this way:



> All good stories have a climax, but the book of Exodus is such a great adventure that it has not one, but three. The first climax is Israel crossing the Red Sea in chapter 14; the second is God giving his Law at Mount Sinai in chapters 19 and following; and the third is the glory of the Lord filling the tabernacle at the end of chapter 40.
> 
> The first of these climactic moments may be the most famous event in the Old Testament. Anyone who knows anything about the Bible knows that the children of Israel passed through the sea. This miracle has been acclaimed by composers like George Frideric Handel, actors like Charlton Heston, preachers like Martin Luther King, Jr., writers like Leon Uris, cartoonists like Charles Schulz, animators like Walt Disney, and even singers like Bob Marley: “Send us another brother Moses! From across the Red Sea … come to break down ’pression, rule inequality, wipe away transgression, set the captives free.”
> 
> Given all this attention, it is not surprising that over the centuries a certain amount of misinformation has crept in about what exactly happened when Moses led God’s people through the sea. This makes it all the more important to get the story straight. One way to do this is to approach Exodus 14 like a journalist, asking who, when, where, how, and especially why.



And, here is how they end (after some talk about the who, when, where, and how . . . 



> FOR HIS OWN GLORY
> How did the Israelites make their great escape? By the hand of God, who saved them from the hands of their enemies (vv. 30, 31). The exodus had to come by God’s hand in order for it to fulfill its divine intention. This brings us to the question of purpose: Why did God part the waters of the Red Sea? The answer is very simple—an answer that explains the whole exodus. Indeed, it is the answer that explains why God does everything that he has ever done, is doing right now, or will ever do. The answer is the glory of God. He did it all for his own glory.
> 
> God announced his intention to glorify himself before the Israelites even reached the sea. He said to Moses, “I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army” (v. 4). God accomplished this glorious purpose in two ways. One was by judging the Egyptians for their sins. He said, “I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them. And I will gain glory through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen. The Egyptians will know that I am the Lord when I gain glory through Pharaoh, his chariots and his horsemen” (vv. 17, 18).
> ...



Ryken, P. G., & Hughes, R. K. (2005). Exodus : Saved for God's glory. Includes bibliographical references (p. [1165]-1202) and indexes. (396-389). Wheaton, Ill.: Crossway Books.

Now, that is easy enough to 'splain to even a mainline congregation! 100 people will be a perfect size for this sermon. Go for it along the lines of God getting the glory and a typological connection to the "greater escape" through Jesus Christ.


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## Grymir (Sep 12, 2008)

You could always compair Barth's theology to being in the red sea somewhere between Mosses and the Pharoh. Will you make it out or not! 

The Barth analogy would not be lost on a normal PCUSA audience.

Mega-Ditto's to DMc's post above.


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## DMcFadden (Sep 12, 2008)

Actually, Timothy, this is what Barth says about the Red Sea . . .



> Who and what is God in the Old Testament? He is definitely the One who leads Israel out of Egypt, and saves it at the Red Sea from the power of Pharaoh, and leads it forward into the wilderness to Sinai and through the wilderness to the land of Canaan. This history and the recollection of this history as the primal history of the covenant between God and man are for all time the revelation of the God of the Old Testament, and therefore the revelation of His being as power. But His being as power is the being of His personal knowing, planning and willing. It is a unique action in which He knows Israel for the sake of its elected fathers, and therefore calls Moses and sets him face to face with Pharaoh, strikes Egypt with all the plagues, lets the waves of the sea pile up so that the people may pass through, lets them close again over Pharaoh and his host, and finally confirms and seals His election and will by publicly concluding His covenant: I am thy God, and thou art my people. “The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them.
> 
> Thou didst blow with thy wind, the sea covered them: they sank as lead in the mighty waters. Who is like unto thee, O Lord, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders? Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them. Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation. The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestina. Then the dukes of Edom shall be amazed; the mighty men of Moab, trembling shall take hold upon them; all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away. Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm they shall be as still as a stone; till thy people pass over, O Lord, till the people pass over, which thou hast purchased. Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O Lord, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O Lord, which thy hands have established. The Lord shall reign for ever and ever (Ex. 15:9–18).
> 
> Here we have the two together. A sovereign power is put forth which everything obeys and nothing can withstand. But it is in the hand of the One and exercised in accordance with His purpose. It all leads, then, to the goal which He has appointed, His self-revelation as God, King and Lord of those for whose benefit it all takes place. That is why the song begins:” The Lord is my strength and song, and He is become my salvation; he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation: my father’s God, and I will exalt him. The Lord is a man of war; the Lord is his name” (vv. 2–3). What begins with this event in which there is such a mighty display of power (cf. Ps. 78, 105, 106) is not, then, a natural history but the history of a strictly personal relationship and action on the part of this mighty God. What is revealed is not a divine power but this mighty God and His person as the possessor of all power. It is He who is recognised and praised. It is He who continues to deal with this people. The knowledge that Yahweh knows and wills does not merely derive from this event, and it is certainly not an interpretation of this event. But the event itself is the revelation of this knowledge. As Yahweh’s self-revelation it is the revelation of His knowing and willing, and only as such is it the revelation of His being as power.


Barth, K., Bromiley, G. W., & Torrance, T. F. (2004). Church dogmatics, Volume II The doctrine of God, Part 1. Translation of Die kirchliche Dogmatik.; Each pt. also has special t.p.; Includes indexes. (600). Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark.


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## Grymir (Sep 13, 2008)

Backwoods, don't use the Barth quote above. Your audience will be as confused as I am!


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## moral necessity (Sep 13, 2008)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> I am preaching this Lord's Day at a PC(USA) church in the area and am struggling with how to preach without a) sounding like a snob, b) feeding them meat when I am not sure they can handle it, etc...
> 
> This may all sound silly and/or absurd but a little word from a more experienced brother would be appreciated.
> 
> My text is Ex. 14:19-31



Well, not that I am an experienced brother....but, in my opinion, for point #1, don't be snobbish...

for point #2, feed them with appropriate meat, as you deem necessary according to their need at the moment. I'm sure you will not be precise in your measurement of this, but try to be as precise as you can be, according to your knowledge of the congregation.

As for your text, in my opinion, edification is clearly illustrated here for nearly any level of believer. I would personally tend to emphasize the necessity of the influence of God, in that he personally intervenes and causes all things to work out according to what is most in line for the best interest of his children, and therefore for his own personal glory. He emphasizes that he is a God who truly loves those who he chooses to love. He will do what is best for them. He will go between Israel and the Egyptians. And, I would mainly emphasize that he desires that Isreal place their faith and trust in Him, both as for their savior and for their refuge. This story and history show that God is the one who delivers Israel from their enemies. And, therefore I would relate this idea to what it foreshadowed, namely, that of Christ delivering us from our enemy, namely, that of our sin before God. Christ delivers us from the just penalty of our sins, by delivering us from the Law. And, he also injects within us a power of holiness to drive us in sanctification, and so frees us from the slavery and bondage of desiring sin alone. And so, he will deliver us from our enemies. And, in glorification, we will see it fully accomplished.

The OT has so many great stories of history that perfectly mirror the walk of a believer, and I would strive to relate some of that walk, whatever it may be, to the illustration that the text is describing.

Blessings and prayers!


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## DMcFadden (Sep 13, 2008)

Grymir said:


> Backwoods, don't use the Barth quote above. Your audience will be as confused as I am!



Hey, that wasn't for him, it was for you, the Barthophile! I already provided a great piece of homiletical material for him out of Ryken and Hughes. Then, *you* brought up Barth.


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## N. Eshelman (Sep 13, 2008)

Ben, 

Preach as a dying man to dying men! You, me, and all who preach the Word are no better than they: We all must stand corum deo on the last day. Help them to be prepared. 

The thought of the Lord asking you to give account for how you preached on this day will not make you proud, but humble before him and before men. 

I will pray for you Ben.


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## dcomin (Sep 13, 2008)

FrielWatcher said:


> Or just go completely topical with 8 ways Exodus shows us how to grow our business.





You could probably even "borrow" an outline from Joel Osteen! 

Seriously, Ben... You've been given some great advice by the brothers here, and we'll all be praying for you. Bathe your sermon in prayer and then preach as if the souls of your hearers depended on it... because they do. 

Go forth in His grace and trust in the power of His Word. It will not return to Him void.


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## dcomin (Sep 15, 2008)

So... how did it go Ben?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Sep 15, 2008)

dcomin said:


> So... how did it go Ben?



See this thread. 

But in general everything went fine. No awkward moments in the service (i.e.- Neither I nor the lay reader missed parts of the service, was unaware of particular quirks of the service, etc...) is always a big plus when preaching somewhere for the first time.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Sep 15, 2008)

Ben,

We can not tell what the seeds we have planted will do; there is One who quickens them to give life, and to increase.

You are doing what is right and good; may the Lord quicken His elect — if any be there — through your sowing.

Your being there is a God-send. Don't judge by appearances.


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