# knock down drag out theology fights



## KayJay (Apr 22, 2004)

have yall ever had these sorts of fights with family over doctrinal issues?

my brother comes over every once in a while to pick up his two sons and we tend to end up in arguments. these arguments used to be about election but lately they are about the issue of fruit. he goes to the church i used to attend which is Dispensational. and has major ties to dallas theological seminary. he takes the same stance as zane hodges - whereas I, being reformed, naturally lean towards Johnny Mac's position (John MacArthur) on the issue.

the arguments get so frustrating and ugly - he interrupts, he mocks etc. i've &quot;lost it&quot; twice lately in these discussions where I've said to him - &quot;is this why you come over? to argue like this?&quot; and &quot;what is your problem&quot; etc. b/c he says some really hurtful infuriating things to me. its so easy to just leave the Lord out of these things and just go at it with your flesh...argh...

do any of you deal with this sort of thing? what do you do?


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## Bladestunner316 (Apr 23, 2004)

With my grandmother and my best friend. It snot fun getting into arguments. Its hard for me at times to just be patient and humble because especially when the topic at hand reachs either Gods sovereignty , free will, and all religions worship the same god crap. Those things really set me off:flaming::flaming::flaming::flaming:


Blade


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## SolaScriptura (Apr 23, 2004)

This may be unsanctified, but...

My wife's family routine has these types of arguments... I find it a total hoot.
You've got my father-in-law who is a MacArthurian type of Dispensational... you've got my mother-in-law who raised a conservative Methodist, (she shares many of the same views as her husband, but sometimes her upbringing comes out...), you got my wife's grandfather who is a liberal Lutheran, two of her uncles are very conservative Lutherans, and finally you have her aunt who became an atheist.
They'll all argue about everything... but it is so funny to hear them argue because they're all stubborn old Germans and the grandfather (especially!) will pick fights and change his position in mid argument just to keep it going! The two conservative Lutherans are always game for a good squabble, my mother-in-law hates it but can't resist, my father-in-law condemns them for following man-made traditions, my wife's aunt thinks they're all crazy... it is quite a hoot.
Perhaps the best spectacle that I was able to witness was over that whole Elian Gonzalez affair (remember that?). That was great. I was laughing for hours.


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## turmeric (Apr 23, 2004)

My mom and I used to get into it over Israel. I assumed that after I got saved all would be well, but...she's a David Hocking Dispensational(without the pre-trib rapture) and I'm reformed, so the last one was about animal sacrifices during the millennium. Oy!

I prayed about it, and others prayed also, and God seems to be restraining us from discussing it.


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## alwaysreforming (Apr 23, 2004)

*Here's what's worked for me...*

My best friend is a Unity member who firmly believes he's a &quot;Christian, just taking it to a higher level.&quot; Well, he frustrates the heck out of me and I came to the place where I just can't do it anymore. Now, anytime he tries to bring up any issue, no matter how innocuous it may seem at the beginning, I simply refrain from replying, or say &quot;Its best for us not to discuss theological topics. We are both coming from two different viewpoints and experience has proven that our discussions end up bearing no fruit.&quot;

This line has saved me from about 268 arguments in the past 2 years.


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## Mary (Apr 29, 2004)

KayJay,

I am the only Christian in the family on my mom's side. My dad's family has a few mainline Protestants in it. It is extremely difficult to get through any family get-together (especially with my mom's people) without being &quot;ganged up on&quot; for my &quot;intolerance and right wing Christianity.&quot; I have said repeatedly that I do NOT want to ruin a family holiday with what is really a moot argument (I am not going to change their minds and vice versa) but it just keeps happening. It takes me reminding people (especially dear old mom) that life is short, and we don't want to have a falling out which will be cause for regret later. But it's a losing argument, since (most likely) she will die first, so I'll be the one left with the regret, not the other way around. To make matters worse, she is mentally ill, and has been so my entire life. Altogether a very bad situation. Short of leaving Michigan, I don't know how to remove the problem. I don't want to cut her off from me - that seems to confirm all her worst beliefs about Christianity. I try to be a loving example of Christ's love and sacrifice. I usually fail miserably.

That probably didn't help you at all, did it? At least you know you are not alone.

Mary


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## FrozenChosen (Apr 29, 2004)

My roommate, definitely a charismatic, looked at www.godhatesfags.com, found their TULIP page and yelled &quot;Is this what all Calvinists are like??&quot;

&quot;They're probably hyper-Calvinist or something, perhaps Calvinists only in theory but not in teaching.&quot;

&quot;IT SAYS IT RIGHT THERE!&quot;

&quot;Yes, I realize that. But they say you have to believe that to be saved, which makes about as much true Calvinist sense as saying 'you have to choose God' or something like that. Same idea, just with different words.&quot;

&quot;Whatever.&quot;


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## Augusta (May 6, 2004)

My side of the family never had these types of arguments. They never discussed politics or religion ever. When I got married my husbands family are all debaters. I had a crash course in debating right off the bat. I liked it immensely and now because I was forced to think, really think, about what I believed on things and have a defense for them, I am all for debating and discussing issues now. Especially the big ones because they are the most important and we should know what we believe on these things. The key is not to lose your cool. Don't let you be the one that escalates it to insults. I remind myself before these start, because I know they will, to try to come from an angle of instruction. Not a superior &quot;I know everything&quot; type of angle but a &quot;you know I have thought about this and tell me what you think, this is my take&quot; type of angle. If you keep your cool and say it in such a way that they don't think you are indoctrinating you can get these things out and plant a seed. Sometimes you can plant a splinter in their brain that they think about repeatedly later. No one is going to acquiesce in the heat of the argument but you can subtly get them thinking. If you come off as superior and know it all-ish they will discard everything you say under the guise that you are just a pompous you know what. If you are calm and introspective while stating your beliefs they are disarmed. They will think about what you said later. It can be really tough not to lose your cool. You have to stay in character. Try to lead them through a line of reasoning and don't let them redirect until that line of reasoning is done. Be respectful always. This can be really tough and it takes restraint that you have to cultivate within yourself. Its hard to get into the right state of mind on the fly. Especially when it is one of your pet peave issues. Just remind yourself if you let it escalate to insult you have failed and all is lost and its all wasted breath. If you stay on the high ground and they go off it is not your fault and they will go away feeling like the jerk not you.


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## tcalbrecht (May 6, 2004)

[quote:d85ddc21dc][i:d85ddc21dc]Originally posted by KayJay[/i:d85ddc21dc]
do any of you deal with this sort of thing? what do you do? [/quote:d85ddc21dc]

I'd tell him that you are glad to see evidence in his life that he takes his anti-Lordship theology so seriously. :bs2: Then leave it go.


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## staythecourse (May 6, 2004)

*It's a skill*

We get angry when we are threatened about our lack of knowledge.

A proverb that keeps me under control is &quot;Anger resides in the bosom of a fool.&quot; If I am angry I am the fool 99% of the time. So flags go up inside me that I am being a fool and I can talk more rationally.

The discussions bear more fruit and more is resolved becasue we keep our mind's door open longer.


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## KayJay (May 6, 2004)

Thanks for all yalls sharing...so glad I'm not the only one who struggles with handling those types of situations well.

I really would like to be able to debate with my brother without it getting ugly but I think it is better to just avoid the issues altogether since he mocks and interrupts me incessantly. I can take questions that I don't know the answers to - and I feel free to say &quot;ya know, I don't know...I'll have to think about that&quot;. However, the fact that it is my older brother - and I am the &quot;baby&quot; in his mind I just have to face the fact that its never gonna go over well. 

Its definitely a bummer though - he goes to church but really sits under the teaching of no one b/c he's involved in all these various ministries (music, kids etc. - non-teaching). He doesn't ever crack open his Bible - yet he is the most arrogant semi-pelagian...argh...anyway...I think he hates my view of Lordship b/c he fears I'll question his salvation...ugh...

My discussions w/other people are never similar to the ones with him! whew praise the Lord for that!


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## turmeric (May 7, 2004)

Kayjay;

If I may be so Dispie as to say this, he may be under conviction So maybe he IS saved! Try to avoid the discussions as they are not fruitful, give him literature instead if you think he will read it, and pray for him like crazy! The problem with these big churches is that it's easy for members to fall between the cracks when it comes to teaching, because there's so much else to do, and participating in ministry looks sooo &quot;spiritual&quot;. Arrggghh!


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## Reed (Jul 22, 2004)

*right here on the A Puritan's Mind*

Hi Folks,
Wandered into this forum and was interested in this thread. I too have intense theological discussion with family members and while thankfully they aren't knock down drag out'ers, it is unpleasant when two cannot walk together (Can two walk together except they be agreed?)

*then* I found this excellent essay on A Puritan's mind:

How to deal with those who differ from us 
by: Dr. Roger R. Nicole
at:

http://www.apuritansmind.com/ChristianWalk/DealWithThoseWhoDiffer.htm

this is a great essay for any of us who have discussions with others who do not hold our views. And it definately keeps you on the high road.

Warm regards,
Reed in Minneapolis


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## ReformedWretch (Jul 22, 2004)

I have these issues with almost EVERYONE I know.

It's to the point to where people just avoid me completely.


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