# Knowledge of total depravity



## Michael (Jun 15, 2011)

When did man first have definitive/conclusive knowledge of his total depravity before God?


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## Rufus (Jun 15, 2011)

After the fall I would presume.


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## Michael (Jun 15, 2011)

Rufus said:


> After the fall I would presume.


Well that does narrow it down I suppose.


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## Rufus (Jun 15, 2011)

Michael said:


> Rufus said:
> 
> 
> > After the fall I would presume.
> ...



It only takes one sin to make us depraved, a person could commit one sin in their entire life (although this isn't possible) and they would still need a Redeemer.


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## Michael (Jun 15, 2011)

Yes, of course. However I'm afraid that does not address or answer the question.


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## Edward (Jun 15, 2011)

I'd start by looking at Gen 3:7-8


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## Michael (Jun 15, 2011)

Edward said:


> I'd start by looking at Gen 3:7-8


Gen 3:7-8 most definitely expresses Adam and Eve's acknowledgement of their sin before God. But does that constitute an understanding of the ramifications of total depravity? Or did they simply fear 1) that God would be angry? 2) that they would die?


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jun 18, 2011)

Michael said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> > I'd start by looking at Gen 3:7-8
> ...



I would venture to say that they new more about their situation in the fact they their nakedness was realized in a manner that they became unclothed from something they had prior to the fall. This might seem like speculation but Adam and Eve probably did cease to exist in the manner they were in before. They did die (cease to exist in life as they were) that day. They might not have had clothing on prior to the fall but I speculate that they were clothed with a glory that they lost because of their sin. A glory similar to that as even Moses exhibited when he came down out of the Mount after beholding God. That glory was probably a clothing to them. I imagine they sensed a great loss of many things. Even the glory, honour, and dominion that they possessed both inwardly and outwardly. 



> (Heb 2:7) Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
> 
> 
> (Heb 2:8) Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. *But now we see not yet all things put under him.*


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## Peairtach (Jun 18, 2011)

Michael said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> > I'd start by looking at Gen 3:7-8
> ...



Are you looking for the first text in Scripture that shows a knowledge of total depravity? Man, being a sinner, we learn from e.g. the early chapters of Romans that there is knowledge and "knowledge" of God and self. Man would have known that he was totally depraved before there is an express text saying so. 

All men have some knowledge of it in their pangs of conscience which are suppressed. 

Even the very wicked are aware that sin expresses enmity and hatred towards God and deserves eternal death:

E.g.


> Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. (Rom 1:32, ESV)


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## Edward (Jun 18, 2011)

Michael said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> > I'd start by looking at Gen 3:7-8
> ...



Since they had the benefit of knowing both the 'before' and 'after' of the fall, I believe that they would have a greater knowledge of the ramifications of total depravity than those who came later.


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## Douglas P. (Jun 18, 2011)

Michael said:


> When did man first have definitive/conclusive knowledge of his total depravity before God?



When by faith he believed in the gospel of Christ.


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## Michael (Jun 22, 2011)

Allow me to clarify a little.

The early chapters of Genesis make it very clear that Adam and Eve knew their guit and knew it well. But did they understand the scope of Total Depravity--not just in their own hearts but in their posterity? Did they understand that no one would ever be able to please God in the slightest or do anything good without first being justified in the sight of God specifically by faith in the promised Redeemer? Or was this something that had to be learned over time? 

The first Scripture passage that we have expressing the depth of Total Depravity across all of mankind seems to be Gen 6:5.



> The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.



Yet this is God's revelation to Moses who recorded it much later.

Scripture makes clear that our earliest ancestors peered into a dim mirror of knowledge whereas we now have the benefit of a more complete revelation and the finished work of Christ. This can apply to so many things. 

On the other side of the coin, Douglas makes a great point. In Hebrews 4 we learn that the same gospel was preached to our spiritual ancestors. So at the very least every single sinner who has come to faith has first tasted his own depravity. They may not have understood the theological ramifications and nuances across the board of mankind but on a most personal level it has to be felt.


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