# Hymn Inclusive Treatments



## Goodcheer68 (Feb 21, 2020)

Over the last 8 years I would consider myself 90% EP. I resonate with the arguments and prefer singing Psalms over everything else. The recent EP debate prompted me to start really studying the arguments on both sides. So right now I’m looking to find the best treatment of non EP arguments presented in books or chapters from a specific book. I have audio resources already but any reading suggestions would be appreciated.

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## timfost (Feb 21, 2020)

I don't know of any comprehensive treatments, but you may find John Eadie's commentary on Eph. 5:19 helpful. (Unfortunately he sometimes quotes Greek writers without translating. If anyone can provide a translation that would be appreciated.)

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/jec/ephesians-5.html


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## timfost (Feb 21, 2020)

Also the OPC majority report and Iain Murray's book.


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## Goodcheer68 (Feb 22, 2020)

timfost said:


> Also the OPC majority report and Iain Murray's book.


Downloaded the OPC Report and just ordered Murray’s book. Thanks

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## Ed Walsh (Feb 22, 2020)

Goodcheer68 said:


> Over the last 8 years I would consider myself 90% EP. I resonate with the arguments and prefer singing Psalms over everything else. The recent EP debate prompted me to start really studying the arguments on both sides.



Good Morning,

I'm guessing you mean the thread that I started about singing Psalms inclusively. Anyway, there's something I didn't mention there that I would like everybody to consider. What about the hymns where the lyrics make up words where God is supposedly speaking? Only recently it has hit me how wrong that seems. In the Psalms, for instance, Psalm 2 and Psalm 91, etc, etc, we have the very word of God speaking to the psalmist, and sometimes to the church, the wicked, and even to individuals. What audacity it takes to write a hymn as though God were speaking directly--to put words into God's mouth He never spoke. Even when the sentiments are accurate, it really seems wrong me and I have stopped singing them. In the Psalms, God does speak to individuals, the Church, the ungodly, to other persons of the Trinity. I have been thinking that hymns that make up words as if God was speaking them are not much different than what some Pentecostals do in getting prophecies where God is speaking directly to the people. Anyway, that's my latest gripe. Okay, maybe I'm exaggerating.

What's wrong with what I am saying? I'd like to be challenged and corrected if I'm wrong. Is it okay to put words into God's mouth?

Psalms to me are like a wonderful Thanksgiving meal compared to a cold White Castle hamburger of hymns of human composition. Although the comparison is greater than that.

Well, that's my rant for this morning.

Good news -- I have easily persuaded our little small group that studies the Book of Luke to begin the sessions with singing a Psalm or two. An elder that I love dearly plays the piano so it isn't acapella, but everybody seems to be liking it. I wouldn't be surprised if it spreads to the whole church. This is my prayer.

Ed

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## deleteduser99 (Feb 22, 2020)

@Goodcheer68 

I found T David Gordon most challenging. You can find him here.

After that, listen to Adam Kuehner's Sabbath school response here.

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## jw (Feb 22, 2020)

Goodcheer68 said:


> Over the last 8 years I would consider myself 90% EP.


Well, pray -do tell- give us the exclusive on the 10% inclusivity!


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## Ed Walsh (Feb 22, 2020)

Joshua said:


> Well, pray -do tell- give us the exclusive on the 10% inclusivity!



I'm partial to the hymn, For all the Saints. My living will paperwork specifies that it be sung at my funeral along with Psalm 90.

I guess I'm still pretty much a 10%'er too.


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## Goodcheer68 (Feb 22, 2020)

Joshua said:


> Well, pray -do tell- give us the exclusive on the 10% inclusivity!



I would be happy just singing the Psalms but put in a situation where they do play a hymn I currently would sing along most of the time.

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## jw (Feb 22, 2020)

Goodcheer68 said:


> I would be happy just singing the Psalms but put in a situation where they do play a hymn I currently would sing along most of the time.


I was just word-playin’, Friend.  I’m always thankful to hear the LORD’s people express their love for the Psalms.

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## VictorBravo (Feb 22, 2020)

I thought I had saved an article on the subject by Dr. Alan Strange, but I can't find it anywhere. Does anyone else remember it?

Edit to add:
Never mind. Found it: https://opc.org/nh.html?article_id=923


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## Ben Zartman (Feb 23, 2020)

Ed Walsh said:


> Good Morning,
> 
> I'm guessing you mean the thread that I started about singing Psalms inclusively. Anyway, there's something I didn't mention there that I would like everybody to consider. What about the hymns where the lyrics make up words where God is supposedly speaking? Only recently it has hit me how wrong that seems. In the Psalms, for instance, Psalm 2 and Psalm 91, etc, etc, we have the very word of God speaking to the psalmist, and sometimes to the church, the wicked, and even to individuals. What audacity it takes to write a hymn as though God were speaking directly--to put words into God's mouth He never spoke. Even when the sentiments are accurate, it really seems wrong me and I have stopped singing them. In the Psalms, God does speak to individuals, the Church, the ungodly, to other persons of the Trinity. I have been thinking that hymns that make up words as if God was speaking them are not much different than what some Pentecostals do in getting prophecies where God is speaking directly to the people. Anyway, that's my latest gripe. Okay, maybe I'm exaggerating.
> 
> ...


Hi Ed,
Along this line of reasoning, wouldn't any scripture paraphrase do? The paraphrases are simply putting Scripture to music, with the same amount of editing required to make psalms singable in English.
Consider for instance "T'was on that night when doomed to know" the third stanza quotes Christ:
"My broken body thus I give,
For you, for all, take, eat, and live
And oft the sacred rite renew
That brings my saving love to view"
And later:
"My blood I thus pour forth, He cries
to save the soul in sin that lies
by this the covenant is sealed
and God's redeeming love revealed"

For the record, I'm very narrow in the hymns I'm willing to sing, and definitely appreciate ones where Scripture is clearly recognizable.


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## TylerRay (Feb 23, 2020)

Ben Zartman said:


> Hi Ed,
> Along this line of reasoning, wouldn't any scripture paraphrase do? The paraphrases are simply putting Scripture to music, with the same amount of editing required to make psalms singable in English.
> Consider for instance "T'was on that night when doomed to know" the third stanza quotes Christ:
> "My broken body thus I give,
> ...


Ben, Ed isn't contending that we may sing anything that God has spoken; he's contending that we may not sing anything he hasn't.

If I say, "I don't eat fish," that doesn't mean I'll eat anything that's not a fish.

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## Ed Walsh (Feb 23, 2020)

Ben Zartman said:


> "My broken body thus I give,
> For you, for all, take, eat, and live
> And oft the sacred rite renew
> That brings my saving love to view"
> ...



Ben,

You would have to pick one that is pretty close to Scripture, wouldn't you? 
At least I can recognize the Bible verses these were taken from. I think I made a sweeping generalization in what I said.
But I have head many songs where, for example, Jesus is speaking some personal thing to an individual about how He feels about them. Things like that. Some contemporary Christian music does this in bizarre ways. Maybe a warning is all I should voice. Keep in mind that there was a lot of context in all that Jesus said. He spoke very differently to the Jews, the crowds, and the Samaritans, and the disciples. I think at least great caution is needed.

Mark 4:34 (ESV)
He did not speak to them [the crowds] without a parable,
but privately to his own disciples he explained everything.
​Thanks for your thoughts,

Ed


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## Ed Walsh (Feb 23, 2020)

Ed Walsh said:


> At least I can recognize the Bible verses these were taken from. I think I made a sweeping generalization in what I said.



Here's an example from a very acceptable hymn even among the Reformed that. I understand the sentiments and think they a Biblical. I have cried singing this hymn. But I now think too much liberty is taken. I offer this not as the worst, but as the best example that still goes too far. At least for me.

Verses 2-5 from *How Firm a Foundation*

*VERSE 2*
Fear not, I am with thee; oh be not dismayed
For I am thy God and will still give thee aid
I’ll strengthen thee, help thee, and cause thee to stand
Upheld by My righteous, omnipotent hand

*VERSE 3*
When through the deep waters I call thee to go
The rivers of sorrow shall not overflow
For I will be with thee, thy troubles to bless
And sanctify to thee thy deepest distress

*VERSE 4*
When through fiery trials thy pathways shall lie
My grace all sufficient shall be thy supply
The flame shall not hurt thee; I only design
Thy dross to consume and thy gold to refine

*VERSE 5*
The soul that on Jesus has leaned for repose
I will not, I will not desert to its foes
That soul, though all hell should endeavor to shake
I’ll never, no never, no never forsake​


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## Ben Zartman (Feb 23, 2020)

Ed Walsh said:


> Ben,
> 
> You would have to pick one that is pretty close to Scripture, wouldn't you?
> At least I can recognize the Bible verses these were taken from. I think I made a sweeping generalization in what I said.
> ...


I can certainly agree that much caution is needed, and that it is not always used. And I can't abide any CCM, even outside of a church context. But I do enjoy singing the old paraphrases--it's like quoting scripture, with music. Another favorite:
"Behold, the mountain of the Lord
In latter days shall rise
On mountain tops, above the hills,
and draw the wondering eyes."

Reactions: Amen 1


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## Goodcheer68 (Feb 23, 2020)

Any other suggestions on hymn inclusive arguments that are well though out. I have read the papers by Gordon, Strange, and the OPC majority report. I have also ordered Ian Hamilton’s booklet on the matter.

Gordon had some fair points. The strongest point in my opinion was that the elements; prayer, preaching, and singing should be governed the same in worship. If both prayer and preaching can be extemporaneous then why not singing? It’s not convincing (neither is the EP argument I heard from Ruddell on this point either) but something I’m trying to think through.


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## Smeagol (Feb 23, 2020)

Goodcheer68 said:


> Gordon had some fair points. The strongest point in my opinion was that the elements; prayer, preaching, and singing should be governed the same in worship. If both prayer and preaching can be extemporaneous then why not singing? It’s not convincing (neither is the EP argument I heard from Ruddell on this point either) but something I’m trying to think through


When I went through both those resources I felt the same way. I was still left with questions on prayer after hearing Ruddell. I really did enjoy the Songs of Zion book.


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## Jeri Tanner (Feb 23, 2020)

Goodcheer68 said:


> If both prayer and preaching can be extemporaneous then why not singing?


I know you’re looking for recommendations on inclusive hymnody, but just wanted to ask if in your research you heard the explanation that the corporate song is a common confession “put into the mouths of the people” (Deuteronomy 31:19); unlike the minister’s preaching and extemporaneous prayer, which in contrast is listened to and can be evaluated; and assent withheld if necessary.

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## Smeagol (Feb 23, 2020)

Jeri Tanner said:


> I know you’re looking for recommendations on inclusive hymnody, but just wanted to ask if in your research you heard the explanation that the corporate song is a common confession “put into the mouths of the people” (Deuteronomy 31:19); unlike the minister’s preaching and extemporaneous prayer, which in contrast is listened to and can be evaluated; and assent withheld if necessary.


Thanks Jeri, but when we hear our Pastor pray, are we not supposed to be in a sense praying with him as we listen?


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## Jeri Tanner (Feb 23, 2020)

G said:


> Thanks Jeri, but when we hear our Pastor pray, are we not supposed to be in a sense praying with him as we listen?


Yes definitely so, as far as we can; but suppose he makes a request or a statement that is not biblical. We’re glad then that our consciences aren’t bound to assent to every request and every prayer. But we are giving assent to every word and every idea expressed we sing in corporate worship.


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## Goodcheer68 (Feb 23, 2020)

Jeri Tanner said:


> I know you’re looking for recommendations on inclusive hymnody, but just wanted to ask if in your research you heard the explanation that the corporate song is a common confession “put into the mouths of the people” (Deuteronomy 31:19); unlike the minister’s preaching and extemporaneous prayer, which in contrast is listened to and can be evaluated; and assent withheld if necessary.



I have. That’s the point Rev Ruddell was making in his teaching. It’s something I need to think about and to hear other EP’s take on it as well.

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## Smeagol (Feb 23, 2020)

@Goodcheer68 

Some good thoughts here:

https://www.puritanboard.com/thread...and-extemporaneous-prayer-not-debating.74419/

https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/singing-vs-prayer-as-an-ordinance.74252/#post-948504

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## ADKing (Feb 24, 2020)

Goodcheer68 said:


> If both prayer and preaching can be extemporaneous then why not singing?


 Because each element of worship is regulated by the Word of God distinctly. The EPer would contend that we get into trouble when we attempt to generalize across all the elements of worship and must examine what the Word teaches about each independently. The biblical rationale that leads to the conclusion that we must form our prayers and sermons according to the Word of God is not (in the EP's understanding) applicable to singing (or for that matter the _reading_ of Scripture). Whether the EP position is right or wrong in its assessment about what the Bible teaches about the nature of singing is of course the crux of the disagreement.

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## Goodcheer68 (Feb 24, 2020)

ADKing said:


> Because each element of worship is regulated by the Word of God distinctly.


The question


Goodcheer68 said:


> If both prayer and preaching can be extemporaneous then why not singing?


was what Gordon was asking and then trying to answer. I feel right now he fell short.

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