# TGC and Seminaries



## TheBruisedReed (Sep 8, 2020)

The Gospel Coalition is a hot topic these days, and for good reason. I think we all understand it's a huge mixed bag of different contributors, so you're going to get a lot of varying content under one banner. We're talking material ranging from confessional reformed orthodoxy to stuff that's, putting it quite bluntly, junk. This gets really interesting when one checks out the board/council members of TGC. I know it's not reasonable for all of these folks to vet absolutely every single video and article the organization puts out, nor is it fair to say that each and every one of them gives unanimous approval to everything TGC publishes. However, there's some popular names on that board and many of them are involved in reformed seminaries. Is their involvement with TGC cause for concern regarding seminaries?


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## Hamalas (Sep 8, 2020)

I think I understand your desire in asking this question, but I don't think it's particularly helpful as it's framed. We could easily do a lot of damage by trying to paint with a broad brush in reply. In some cases, there may be cause for concern and in many others not. Unless we're going to talk specifics I think this is a question best left to the side.

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## retroGRAD3 (Sep 8, 2020)

Unfortunately the majority of what you see coming out of TGC these days is woke and marxist. What I mean is the people that are actively advertised and pushed to the front. I agree there may be some good articles, but they are not the ones being promoted. To me, it appears they are failing in their mission. Though, this was not always the case.

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## TheBruisedReed (Sep 8, 2020)

retroGRAD3 said:


> Unfortunately the majority of what you see coming out of TGC these days is woke and marxist. What I mean is the people that are actively advertised and pushed to the front. I agree there may be some good articles, but they are not the ones being promoted. To me, it appears they are failing in their mission. Though, this was not always the case.


Agreed. They were strong and could be strong again. My own denomination snapped back into confessionalism after flirting with liberalism. [Praise God!] I wonder why the more conservative/solid folks (alluded to in the OP) don't put a stop to the "wokeness" and CRT. I mean, criticism of TGC over these very issues is literally everywhere. Surely the people with the means to snuff out this "wokeism" must see some of the outcry.


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## retroGRAD3 (Sep 8, 2020)

TheBruisedReed said:


> Agreed. They were strong and could be strong again. My own denomination snapped back into confessionalism after flirting with liberalism. [Praise God!] I wonder why the more conservative/solid folks (alluded to in the OP) don't put a stop to the "wokeness" and CRT. I mean, criticism of TGC over these very issues is literally everywhere. Surely the people with the means to snuff out this "wokeism" must see some of the outcry.


A good question indeed


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## TheBruisedReed (Sep 9, 2020)

retroGRAD3 said:


> A good question indeed


"Following the money" is shedding some light.

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## Jonathco (Sep 9, 2020)

TGC has increasingly concerned me in the last few years; it has become a mixed bag of quasi-reformed writing and then a lot of woke/social justice/Big Eva promotion. I am not saying I would never read anything from TGC if an article was recommended, but I would approach it with caution, given the organization's trending trajectory. 

That said, remember that a mixed bag of fruit with one bad one will soon cause rot in the others, if not removed.

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## TheBruisedReed (Sep 9, 2020)

Joshua said:


> They're *exactly* what churches need: One more unaccountable parachurch organization with SJWs, FVers, women, etc. informing wider church bodies of their duties, even said bodies who have the Bible and are aware of what their duties are, how they should vet, examine, and subsequently commission their men, and how -when appropriate- they should relate to the outside world, since their sessions and presbyteries are not equipped and enlightened enough to discern from the Bible what they need to get along as Christ's Kingdom in this world. By the way, even seminaries are but to be handmaidens to the presbytery, not rubber stamps of approval.



This is some serious food for thought. Accountability is a dying, antiquated concept in many circles.


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## TheBruisedReed (Sep 9, 2020)

Jonathco said:


> TGC has increasingly concerned me in the last few years; it has become a mixed bag of quasi-reformed writing and then a lot of woke/social justice/Big Eva promotion. I am not saying I would never read anything from TGC if an article was recommended, but I would approach it with caution, given the organization's trending trajectory.
> 
> That said, remember that a mixed bag of fruit with one bad one will soon cause rot in the others, if not removed.


Of course. One can still find treasure in that field, but it's getting harder to come by. And your closing line is really the root of my concern. "Wokeness" (and everything else you listed) is likely going to corrupt everything it touches. We all know from the clear testimony of Scripture and our personal experiences (not that those are infallible, but they can help with confirmation) that it is extremely rare for it to trend in the other direction.


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## RamistThomist (Sep 9, 2020)

Since I can't say anything good about The Gospel Corporation, I won't say anything at all.

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## Reformed Covenanter (Sep 9, 2020)

What is good about The Gospel Coalition: Kevin De Young. 

What is bad about The Gospel Coalition: nearly everything else.

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## Stephen L Smith (Sep 9, 2020)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> What is bad about The Gospel Coalition: nearly everything else.


Is Don Carson still involved? Does he influence TGC?


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## TheBruisedReed (Sep 9, 2020)

Stephen L Smith said:


> Is Don Carson still involved? Does he influence TGC?


He's a "Theologian-at-Large" now. But yes, still involved.

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## Wretched Man (Sep 9, 2020)

Hamalas said:


> I think I understand your desire in asking this question, but I don't think it's particularly helpful as it's framed. We could easily do a lot of damage by trying to paint with a broad brush in reply. In some cases, there may be cause for concern and in many others not. Unless we're going to talk specifics I think this is a question best left to the side.


It doesn’t appear Joshua had a problem with the way this question was framed...

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## TheBruisedReed (Sep 9, 2020)

Wretched Man said:


> It doesn’t appear Joshua had a problem with the way this question was framed...


Just came in full throttle. I appreciated it!


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## TheBruisedReed (Sep 10, 2020)

TheBruisedReed said:


> "Following the money" is shedding some light.


It appears that James Riady, a man banned from the United States for influencing American elections with illegal financial contributions (a Soros type of character), is a source of generous funding for TGC and a couple of major reformed seminaries. He is also a Marxist.

I'm really not trying to be uncharitable, but this just doesn't look right...right?

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## retroGRAD3 (Sep 10, 2020)

TheBruisedReed said:


> It appears that James Riady, a man banned from the United States for influencing American elections with illegal financial contributions (a Soros type of character), is a source of generous funding for TGC and a couple of major reformed seminaries. He is also a Marxist.
> 
> I'm really not trying to be uncharitable, but this just doesn't look right...right?


That is really disturbing to hear.


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## Jonathco (Sep 10, 2020)

I know little of Mr. Riady, but a quick web search _does _show a mix of scandals and as well as major donor funding of reformed educational initiatives. With that, the 9th Commandment guides me to not speak ill of a brother whom I have little actual knowledge of.

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## Andrew35 (Sep 10, 2020)

Jonathco said:


> I know little of Mr. Riady, but a quick web search _does _show a mix of scandals and as well as major donor funding of reformed educational initiatives. With that, the 9th Commandment guides me to not speak ill of a brother whom I have little actual knowledge of.


The scandals need to be divided into pre/post-conversion, with the egregious ones landing in the former.

As for the rest, some grace does need to be extended with respect that, in Indonesia, as I understand, business deals can have a... rather different character than in a developed Western nation. I don't think most of you would understand the pervasiveness and extent of corruption that has plagued the nation since the days of their dictator. Nobody who's made it through that era has come out smelling very nice.

As to "Marxist," I'd want to see some documentation from sources _other_ than _Pitchfork &_--er, _Pulpit & Pen_.

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## Peter Bell (Sep 10, 2020)

My school's former Dean of Students and Professor of Practical Theology is now their President. Be careful treading in water you do not have experience in. It may not change immediately and radically, but do know the intention is there. I've spoken to Dr. Julius Kim directly, and he's told me that's the goal.

A large organization needs time to redirect. Anyone with large business administration/leadership experience knows this!

Pray for them!

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## TheBruisedReed (Sep 10, 2020)

Andrew35 said:


> The scandals need to be divided into pre/post-conversion, with the egregious ones landing in the former.
> 
> As for the rest, some grace does need to be extended with respect that, in Indonesia, as I understand, business deals can have a... rather different character than in a developed Western nation. I don't think most of you would understand the pervasiveness and extent of corruption that has plagued the nation since the days of their dictator. Nobody who's made it through that era has come out smelling very nice.
> 
> As to "Marxist," I'd want to see some documentation from sources _other_ than _Pitchfork &_--er, _Pulpit & Pen_.


Very good points. That's why I prefaced my post with "appears." I know what sources are reporting on this and I know they are not the most reputable ones. I was just throwing some talking points into the mix. Of course, that's probably a milder way of saying I was stoking the fire. If you'll have it, I repent of said stoking and will seek to be more cautious and loving in my posting. God knows my past is covered in horrific blemishes.

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## TheBruisedReed (Sep 10, 2020)

Jonathco said:


> I know little of Mr. Riady, but a quick web search _does _show a mix of scandals and as well as major donor funding of reformed educational initiatives. With that, the 9th Commandment guides me to not speak ill of a brother whom I have little actual knowledge of.


You're right, brother. I know absolutely nothing about him or the dealings with these institutions short of some sketchy internet articles written by known "pot-stirrers." This thread was a foolish thing to post.

Reactions: Edifying 1


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## TheBruisedReed (Sep 10, 2020)

retroGRAD3 said:


> That is really disturbing to hear.


It's disturbing that I shared it in the first place. My sincere apologies.


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## TheBruisedReed (Sep 10, 2020)

Peter Bell said:


> My school's former Dean of Students and Professor of Practical Theology is now their President. Be careful treading in water you do not have experience in. It may not change immediately and radically, but do know the intention is there. I've spoken to Dr. Julius Kim directly, and he's told me that's the goal.
> 
> A large organization needs time to redirect. Anyone with large business administration/leadership experience knows this!
> 
> Pray for them!


Most encouraging! Thanks for sharing some positive content. I will certainly keep Dr. Kim, and TGC in my prayers.


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## Username3000 (Sep 10, 2020)

Peter Bell said:


> My school's former Dean of Students and Professor of Practical Theology is now their President. Be careful treading in water you do not have experience in. It may not change immediately and radically, but do know the intention is there. I've spoken to Dr. Julius Kim directly, and he's told me that's the goal.
> 
> A large organization needs time to redirect. Anyone with large business administration/leadership experience knows this!
> 
> Pray for them!


Perhaps I speak foolishly; perhaps naively. Please forgive me if this is a worse thing to say than I currently consider it. Please tell me if it is. 

But..

If the apostle Paul was given the position of president of TGC (that's what you meant, correct?), and he accepted it, would he work slowly, or would he loudly and clearly denounce past TGC falsehood, and call those in need to repentance?


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## TomVols (Sep 11, 2020)

Jonathco said:


> I know little of Mr. Riady, but a quick web search _does _show a mix of scandals and as well as major donor funding of reformed educational initiatives. With that, the 9th Commandment guides me to not speak ill of a brother whom I have little actual knowledge of.


 Thank you for this. This is such a missing element nowadays. May your tribe increase


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## TomVols (Sep 11, 2020)

Andrew35 said:


> The scandals need to be divided into pre/post-conversion, with the egregious ones landing in the former.
> 
> As for the rest, some grace does need to be extended with respect that, in Indonesia, as I understand, business deals can have a... rather different character than in a developed Western nation. I don't think most of you would understand the pervasiveness and extent of corruption that has plagued the nation since the days of their dictator. Nobody who's made it through that era has come out smelling very nice.
> 
> As to "Marxist," I'd want to see some documentation from sources _other_ than _Pitchfork &_--er, _Pulpit & Pen_.



Speaking solely for myself, I am grateful for your post. Aside from some very questionable sources, I've yet to see anything other than misinformation about the vast majority of accusations made about some.

If people *know* of actual instances of Marxism, etc., then trot it out. Otherwise - last time I checked - bearing false witness is a sin. 

Problem is, some people will automatically label me as pro-Marxist or pro-CRT for saying the above. I am neither.


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## TomVols (Sep 11, 2020)

TheBruisedReed said:


> It's disturbing that I shared it in the first place. My sincere apologies.


I don't know that you need to apologize. I don't think you came in swinging and dropping very suspect "sources" or misleading quotes. You shared concerns, and I shared one I have. We both share a same overall concern for orthodoxy and a desire for there to be those willing to stand on truth and call error error.


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## retroGRAD3 (Sep 11, 2020)

TheBruisedReed said:


> It's disturbing that I shared it in the first place. My sincere apologies.


To be more realistic, while I agree that articles on Pulpit and Pen and sources like it need to be investigated a bit, not everything they print is sensationalized. JD Hall for all his flaws, is an educated theologian. I do think he loses his balance at times, but again, he does make valid points at times. The unfortunate thing about many of the articles is the slant on them that get too personal and could be seen as an attack. There are also opinion pieces, but for the most part, these are identified up front. Again, not trying to give an apology for them, but I do want to make sure not everything is an automatic deny. At the same time, it's probably best to verify information from those sites with a couple of other independent sources.

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## Andrew35 (Sep 11, 2020)

retroGRAD3 said:


> To be more realistic, while I agree that articles on Pulpit and Pen and sources like it need to be investigated a bit, not everything they print is sensationalized. JD Hall for all his flaws, is an educated theologian. I do think he loses his balance at times, but again, he does make valid points at times. The unfortunate thing about many of the articles is the slant on them that get too personal and could be seen as an attack. There are also opinion pieces, but for the most part, these are identified up front. Again, not trying to give an apology for them, but I do want to make sure not everything is an automatic deny. At the same time, it's probably best to verify information from those sites with a couple of other independent sources.


We have a good number of educated theologians on this board who are much more deserving a hearing than Hall.

Sorry, I'm sure he has good points from time to time. Most people do. But when you go about publicly slandering people about whom you know next to nothing, you automatically go into my "junk" folder -- along with the pesky political fundraisers and the wholesale-viagra peddlers.

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## retroGRAD3 (Sep 12, 2020)

Andrew35 said:


> We have a good number of educated theologians on this board who are much more deserving a hearing than Hall.
> 
> Sorry, I'm sure he has good points from time to time. Most people do. But when you go about publicly slandering people about whom you know next to nothing, you automatically go into my "junk" folder -- along with the pesky political fundraisers and the wholesale-viagra peddlers.


You don't have to apologize. I agree for the most part. Like I said, I was not trying to advocate for him, just saying not everything he posts is completely false.


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## TomVols (Sep 14, 2020)

retroGRAD3 said:


> You don't have to apologize. I agree for the most part. Like I said, I was not trying to advocate for him, just saying not everything he posts is completely false.


Maybe not everything. But when you deliberately superimpose a swastika armband on Tim Keller, for instance......how seriously do you expect to be taken?


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## retroGRAD3 (Sep 14, 2020)

TomVols said:


> Maybe not everything. But when you deliberately superimpose a swastika armband on Tim Keller, for instance......how seriously do you expect to be taken?


It's not a swastika, it is a hammer and sickle. I agree that is a bit inflammatory. However, again, it is not completely untrue. Keller does admit to having some Marxist leanings. I am not saying he is a full blown communist though, that is a misrepresentation.

Here is a short biography of Keller's Marxist origins




The whole discussion is pretty good, but the biography starts at about the 37 minute mark.





Conversations That Matter







www.worldviewconversation.com




Here is the print version, with all of the sources of the information listed.


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## Semper Fidelis (Sep 14, 2020)

retroGRAD3 said:


> The whole discussion is pretty good, but the biography starts at about the 37 minute mark.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a really good article.

I've spent a couple of years now reading about Missional theology and left-leaning neo-Kuyperianism.

This helps explain why so many progressives in the PCA cite Conn as an important voice.

I don't know if Carl Ellis has settled down a bit. Some of his stuff is quite useful in terms of describing why certain aspects of society stay impoverished.

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## TomVols (Sep 16, 2020)

retroGRAD3 said:


> It's not a swastika, it is a hammer and sickle. I agree that is a bit inflammatory. However, again, it is not completely untrue. Keller does admit to having some Marxist leanings. I am not saying he is a full blown communist though, that is a misrepresentation.
> 
> Here is a short biography of Keller's Marxist origins
> 
> ...


My mistake on calling it a swastika.

It's more than a bit inflammatory. And that's the problem....well, one of many.

When I can, I'll read this/watch and post. If it's like everything else I've seen, it's slander, pure and simple, and a violation of the prohibition against bearing false witness. But I'm open to anything credible. Peace.

Edited: I have read/watched this before. Someone somewhere discredited this, but I'm not on my primary device. Thanks!


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## retroGRAD3 (Sep 16, 2020)

TomVols said:


> My mistake on calling it a swastika.
> 
> It's more than a bit inflammatory. And that's the problem....well, one of many.
> 
> ...


What I posted in this response is not from Pulpit and Pen. I believe you will find it is credible.

Also, "someone somewhere" discredited? Did they refute all of the sources posted? Otherwise, it seems more like an opinion.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Sep 16, 2020)

I actually thought Tim Keller's _Generous Justice_ book was pretty balanced on the whole subject of helping the poor. He rightly noted that a paternalistic view of government does mean that the state should help the poor, but not in such a manner as keeps them in a state of slavish dependency. While you all know that I have no time for woke evangelicalism, there has been too much of a libertarian or small government fundamentalist influence on conservative evangelicals (I am not saying that libertarianism is a wholly bad thing). Hence, there was a tendency to cry "Marxism" every time someone proposed that the government should do something. For that reason, some people automatically think you are being hysterical whenever you warn of Marxism (cultural or orthodox) or of a totalitarian police state. The same thing seems to apply to criticisms of Tim Keller. I recall seeing him being accused of Communism for his views on poor relief and that put me off listening to those who said that he does still have some Marxist-leanings. While I agree that he does have some Marxist leanings, we need to be careful that we are criticising him for the right reasons.

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## TomVols (Sep 16, 2020)

retroGRAD3 said:


> What I posted in this response is not from Pulpit and Pen. I believe you will find it is credible.



We are all grateful it's not  I'll have to look at my primary device, but I recognize the face, etc. Thanks!


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## retroGRAD3 (Sep 16, 2020)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> I actually thought Tim Keller's _Generous Justice_ book was pretty balanced on the whole subject of helping the poor. He rightly noted that a paternalistic view of government does mean that the state should help the poor, but not in such a manner as keeps them in a state of slavish dependency. While you all know that I have no time for woke evangelicalism, there has been too much of a libertarian or small government fundamentalist influence on conservative evangelicals (I am not saying that libertarianism is a wholly bad thing). Hence, there was a tendency to cry "Marxism" every time someone proposed that the government should do something. For that reason, some people automatically think you are being hysterical whenever you warn of Marxism (cultural or orthodox) or of a totalitarian police state. The same thing seems to apply to criticisms of Tim Keller. I recall seeing him being accused of Communism for his views on poor relief and that put me off listening to those who said that he does still have some Marxist-leanings. While I agree that he does have some Marxist leanings, we need to be careful that we are criticising him for the right reasons.


Correct, I agree with this. I believe the conversations that matter response is balanced in it's response. He does not advocate full blown communism at all. He even gives appreciation to Tim Keller in several areas.


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## Taylor (Sep 16, 2020)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> I actually thought Tim Keller's _Generous Justice_ book was pretty balanced on the whole subject of helping the poor. He rightly noted that a paternalistic view of government does mean that the state should help the poor, but not in such a manner as keeps them in a state of slavish dependency. While you all know that I have no time for woke evangelicalism, there has been too much of a libertarian or small government fundamentalist influence on conservative evangelicals (I am not saying that libertarianism is a wholly bad thing). Hence, there was a tendency to cry "Marxism" every time someone proposed that the government should do something. For that reason, some people automatically think you are being hysterical whenever you warn of Marxism (cultural or orthodox) or of a totalitarian police state. The same thing seems to apply to criticisms of Tim Keller. I recall seeing him being accused of Communism for his views on poor relief and that put me off listening to those who said that he does still have some Marxist-leanings. While I agree that he does have some Marxist leanings, we need to be careful that we are criticising him for the right reasons.



Is it within the state’s purview, according to Scripture, to do charity work? To me, this is where Keller is wrong. Actually, he errs on two fronts:

He conflates generosity and justice (even in the very title of his book on the subject). But the two have little if anything to do with each other. A lack of generosity is not a matter of justice, but sin. The state cannot punish me for refusing to give charitably. But that’s precisely what state-enforced welfare is and does. It makes lack of generosity a crime. But this isn’t biblical. To say that generosity is a matter of justice is to say that the poor have a legal claim on my possessions. But that’s just not true. We cannot confuse duty before God with duty before the state. But that’s what I believe Keller does.
He believes the state has the duty to perform charity work. The problem is that this requires, essentially, stealing from the rich to give to the poor. Rather, charity to the poor is a duty of all Christians individually and the Church collectively. Where Keller goes wrong is in suggesting that the solution to the failure of the Church in this task is simply to give a function of the Church to the state. That, to me, is textbook statism, and part of the reason we are in the mess we are in in this nation.

The problem is that the Wokist will hear what I just said and say, “Well, you just hate the poor, are greedy, and have no interest in generosity.” But that’s just not true. I care deeply about those things. I just believe it’s the responsibility of the Church and the individual believer to exercise these duties, and that failure to do so is a spiritual matter, not a legal one. The state, in my view, has no business in charity. They are to wield the sword to reward the innocent and punish the guilty.

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## Reformed Covenanter (Sep 16, 2020)

Taylor Sexton said:


> Is it within the state’s purview, according to Scripture, to do charity work? To me, this is where Keller is wrong.



I disagree with the suppositions underlying your argument, which flow from the Kuyperian notions of sphere-sovereignty and the idea of a regulative principle of civil government that undergirds modern theonomy. The Reformed traditionally believed that the civil magistrate, as the father of the commonwealth, was to have paternalistic care for the poor. Paying taxes to this end is not stealing as defined by nature and scripture. On this issue, Tim Keller is basically correct from a Reformed point of view. However, these points are too big to discuss at length here, as it would effectively derail the thread.

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## Reformed Covenanter (Sep 16, 2020)

Taylor Sexton said:


> The problem is that the Wokist will hear what I just said and say, “Well, you just hate the poor, are greedy, and have no interest in generosity.”



Also, I am not a Wokist. Nor are many other people who do not agree with what you are arguing. You would be hard pressed to find a conservative Christian outside of the USA who disagrees with me on this issue. Nor do I believe that those who oppose state welfare necessarily hate the poor. I think they are wrong-headed in their approach to poor-relief, but it does not mean that they hate the poor. It is precisely this sort of rhetoric that we need to avoid.


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## Taylor (Sep 16, 2020)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> Also, I am not a Wokist. Nor are many other people who do not agree with what you are arguing. You would be hard pressed to find a conservative Christian outside of the USA who disagrees with me on this issue. Nor do I believe that those who oppose state welfare necessarily hate the poor. I think they are wrong-headed in their approach to poor-relief, but it does not mean that they hate the poor. It is precisely this sort of rhetoric that we need to avoid.



Thanks for your thoughts, brother.

I do want to clarify that when I referenced "the Wokist" here, I in no way intended that to be directed toward anyone here, certainly not you, brother. I sincerely apologize for that confusion. I was basically critiquing the arguments of people I hear everyday, and remarking that this kind of cynical and shallow thinking among the Woke is why these conversations are so difficult to have.

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## Reformed Covenanter (Sep 16, 2020)

Taylor Sexton said:


> Thanks for your thoughts, brother.
> 
> I do want to clarify that when I referenced "the Wokist" here, I in no way intended that to be directed toward anyone here, certainly not you, brother. I sincerely apologize for that confusion. I was basically critiquing the arguments of people I hear everyday, and remarking that this kind of cynical and shallow thinking among the Woke is why these conversations are so difficult to have.



Thanks, I knew that you were not getting at me but I thought that I would add that clarification. I do agree that many of the Woke people use silly, emotive, and even manipulative arguments to get their way - even on issues where I might (in the odd instance) agree with them.

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## Taylor (Sep 16, 2020)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> Thanks, I knew that you were not getting at me but I thought that I would add that clarification. I do agree that many of the Woke people use silly, emotive, and even manipulative arguments to get their way - even on issues where I might (in the odd instance) agree with them.



Regarding what you said above in your first reply to me, can you recall anywhere in the Puritans or continental Reformed where they discuss these matters? I need to read on this more.

Thanks, brother!


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## Reformed Covenanter (Sep 16, 2020)

Taylor Sexton said:


> Regarding what you said above in your first reply to me, can you recall anywhere in the Puritans or continental Reformed where they discuss these matters? I need to read on this more.
> 
> Thanks, brother!



The best places to start are John Calvin's commentary on Isaiah 49:23 and Martin Bucer's _De Regno Christi_.

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## retroGRAD3 (Sep 16, 2020)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> I disagree with the suppositions underlying your argument, which flow from the Kuyperian notions of sphere-sovereignty and the idea of a regulative principle of civil government that undergirds modern theonomy. The Reformed traditionally believed that the civil magistrate, as the father of the commonwealth, was to have paternalistic care for the poor. Paying taxes to this end is not stealing as defined by nature and scripture. On this issue, Tim Keller is basically correct from a Reformed point of view. However, these points are too big to discuss at length here, as it would effectively derail the thread.


I follow what you are saying. I wonder though, how some of those folks would react today with all of the welfare and social programs that are completely taken advantage of. I am speaking of the United States here at the moment. We have many who never have worked a day in their life because they get checks from the state that incentivize them to continue to have children out of wedlock. Why work when you can make way more money with no effort from the state? We saw this in the US as well when the state gave out unemployment during Covid. There was a point when aid was given to the businesses to rehire people, but the people did not want to come back because they made more money on unemployment. 

I think the main issue is there are categoies here of truly poor and those that are able bodied but opt to be "poor". I think that is why the traditionally reformed position at this point actually fails because the government is no longer good stewarts of the people's money. At this point, people giving charity voluntarily would seem the better course because it would ensure that those who actually need the money, get it. I think other arguments could be made about how the church and the state used to be almost the same thing at certain points as well. 

Also, to mention, I am not accusing you of being woke either. Just trying to analyze the position a bit.

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## Reformed Covenanter (Sep 16, 2020)

retroGRAD3 said:


> I follow what you are saying. I wonder though, how some of those folks would react today with all of the welfare and social programs that are completely taken advantage of. I am speaking of the United States here at the moment. We have many who never have worked a day in their life because they get checks from the state that incentivize them to continue to have children out of wedlock. Why work when you can make way more money with no effort from the state? We saw this in the US as well when the state gave out unemployment during Covid. There was a point when aid was given to the businesses to rehire people, but the people did not want to come back because they made more money on unemployment.
> 
> I think the main issue is there are categoies here of truly poor and those that are able bodied but opt to be "poor". I think that is why the traditionally reformed position at this point actually fails because the government is no longer good stewarts of the people's money. At this point, people giving charity voluntarily would seem the better course because it would ensure that those who actually need the money, get it. I think other arguments could be made about how the church and the state used to be almost the same thing at certain points as well.
> 
> Also, to mention, I am not accusing you of being woke either. Just trying to analyze the position a bit.



I agree with much of the substance of what you are saying. The UK government was (and still is) paying people 80% of their wages (up to something like £2,000 per month) for six months to sit at home and do nothing when there is nothing wrong with them. It is the economics of a madhouse. Peter Martyr Vermigli: no welfare for idlers provides quite a useful summary of much of what is wrong with some modern welfare systems.

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## arapahoepark (Sep 16, 2020)

Semper Fidelis said:


> That's a really good article.
> 
> I've spent a couple of years now reading about Missional theology and left-leaning neo-Kuyperianism.
> 
> ...


An eye opening read. I knew little about Harvie Conn. It explains why many of the former left leaning faculty *cough* Longman*cough* were nostalgic about the 'middle era' of the seminary recently.


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## retroGRAD3 (Sep 16, 2020)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> I agree with much of the substance of what you are saying. The UK government was (and still is) paying people 80% of their wages (up to something like £2,000 per month) for six months to sit at home and do nothing when there is nothing wrong with them. It is the economics of a madhouse. Peter Martyr Vermigli: no welfare for idlers provides quite a useful summary of much of what is wrong with some modern welfare systems.


The traditionally reformed position would likely still work as intended if the government still enforced the following command:

2 Thessalonians 3:10
For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.

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## arapahoepark (Sep 16, 2020)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> The best places to start are John Calvin's commentary on Isaiah 49:23 and Martin Bucer's _De Regno Christi_.


What chapter of Bucer?


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## Reformed Covenanter (Sep 16, 2020)

arapahoepark said:


> What chapter of Bucer?



I read the book in 2011 and it is not immediately to hand. The edition I have did not translate the book in full, which is a pity. It is in the volume along with Philip Melancthon's _Loci Communes_.


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## arapahoepark (Sep 16, 2020)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> I read the book in 2011 and it is not immediately to hand. The edition I have did not translate the book in full, which is a pity. It is in the volume along with Philip Melancthon's _Loci Communes_.


I have the same book!


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## retroGRAD3 (Sep 16, 2020)

How to Navigate the Generational Divide in Politics


The dynamic of being disappointed—even incensed—by your parents’ (or your children’s) politics is not new.




www.thegospelcoalition.org





More "gold" from TGC. The second paragraph is especially ridiculous.

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## Reformed Covenanter (Sep 16, 2020)

retroGRAD3 said:


> How to Navigate the Generational Divide in Politics
> 
> 
> The dynamic of being disappointed—even incensed—by your parents’ (or your children’s) politics is not new.
> ...





> I’m hearing more and more young, conservative-leaning evangelicals express disappointment at the political behavior of their conservative parents—a growing concern that they’re being radicalized into* the conspiracy-spreading far-right* by a steady diet of *Fox News*, Rush Limbaugh, and *Ben Shapiro*.



It is hard to take anyone seriously when they think that the likes of Fox News and Ben Shapiro are leading people into the Far Right. 



> Given the extreme pro-abortion policies, Maoist enforcement of speech codes, and guillotine optics of the other side, we can understand why Christian voters might find Trump the lesser of two evils.



The concession is one that various TGC writers would be reluctant to make.

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