# Men with supernatural powers



## TimV (Dec 9, 2010)

How many of you believe that Yogis, Gurus, Shamans et. al. are widely capable of supernatural powers? I.e. powers that demonstrably defy existing physical theories? Like levitation, fasting for weeks without weight loss, moving objects with their mind, starting fires from a distance and the like.

And what are the methods out there used to judge such things? Would any of you use arguments like "it may have never been proven, but it's possible so I believe it" or "it's widely know so it's obviously true" or "Demons are real, therefore reliance on science is materialistic and lack of believe is tantamount to a lack of faith"?

Thanks


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## smhbbag (Dec 9, 2010)

Demons are real, and those things are possible. 

Science is _a_ valid way of testing such claims, and my bias is against the reality of any individual event when it's reported. 

I can't even name one off the top of my head that I believe. I'm rarely interested enough to look very far into them, and almost all of them allegedly happen in times and places where verification is impossible. Most witnesses simply are not credible.

Yet, I would approach any person involved in those things with extreme caution. Our struggle is against principalities and powers that do not play around. God Himself may be sending them a "powerful delusion" so they will believe their own lies (2 Thess 2:11). 

To approach witch-doctors, shamans, etc. with the same snide attitude as the dismissive atheist is asking for trouble. God's Word is the proving ground for all things, and that takes the allure out of these false prophets.

If one of them did a super-natural act in front of my own eyes that I believed, the only right response is: "So what?" An apparent supernatural event in front of me does not hold the authority of God's Word, and it is certainly no verification of truth. Now, if it were from a man who were in all ways orthodox, then we'd have an interesting conversation there. I won't hold my breath for that.


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## Jack K (Dec 9, 2010)

Much is a sham or trickery. Some is actual demonic power. In some cases, both demonic power and trickery are involved. When you're a servant of the devil, you can't always count on him to come through for you. You need to be able to fall back on your own tricks to keep your customers believing in you.


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## Mushroom (Dec 9, 2010)

Strong delusion, believing the lie. Lie being the operative term.

Please show me any supernatural event other than that which God has wrought by His own arm. You can't because it does not exist except in the minds of those under the influence of strong delusion.


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## SolaScriptura (Dec 9, 2010)

I wish I had supernatural powers. If I could have the abilities of Superman... that would be _so_ cool.


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## Zenas (Dec 9, 2010)

You don't? That changes a lot...


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## Andres (Dec 9, 2010)

Brad said:


> Strong delusion, believing the lie. Lie being the operative term.
> 
> Please show me any supernatural event other than that which God has wrought by His own arm. You can't because it does not exist except in the minds of those under the influence of strong delusion.


 
Pharaoh's magicians?


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## TimV (Dec 9, 2010)

Jack K said:


> Some is actual demonic power.



But how would you prove it? If there's not one single documented example do you say that Gurus have this supernatural power because your theology demands that it be so? What is your reasoning?


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## Phil D. (Dec 9, 2010)

Brad said:


> Strong delusion, believing the lie. Lie being the operative term.
> 
> Please show me any supernatural event other than that which God has wrought by His own arm. You can't because it does not exist except in the minds of those under the influence of strong delusion.


 
So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron cast down his staff before Pharaoh and his servants, and it became a serpent. 11 Then Pharaoh summoned the wise men and the sorcerers, and they, the magicians of Egypt, also did the same by their secret arts. 12 For each man cast down his staff, and they became serpents. (Exodus 7:10-12a ESV)​
Ah, I see you beat me to this, Andrew...


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## TimV (Dec 9, 2010)

One could point to the maniac who broke chains in the NT for an example in the Bible. Just as one could use the example of raising of the dead. But I'm talking nowadays, and something so common place that you can say "it's obvious those chaps (gurus) have supernatural powers. Such that one can sit down and determine that they are going to acquire supernatural powers by doing certain things.


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## Jack K (Dec 9, 2010)

TimV said:


> Jack K said:
> 
> 
> > Some is actual demonic power.
> ...


 
I'm not sure that trying to prove it is the best approach. It really is more of a theological question than a scientific one. The Bible would say to me that spiritual beings exist and at times have been active in our world, and that they have properties, behaviors and abilities different from our own, often undetected by us. So it makes sense to think this is still the case today. However, I think my first instinct upon encountering a shaman would be to look for vagueness, trickery and the planting of suggestive ideas as key tools he uses. I'd be especially suspiscious of claims of the levitation, fire starting and such you mentioned. Also, the shaman himself, as a servant of the devil, is likely to be deluded as well about what all is going on. The devil is "a liar and the father of lies."

If I see a good magic show on stage, I can't prove the tricks are illusions but I believe they are—based on my knowledge of the character of stage magicians. They do illusions. Likewise, if I encounter a shaman I base my beliefs on what I know about the character of the one he serves. So I (1) look first of all for lies, (2) acknowledge that there _are_ spiritual forces that at times may act "supernaturally" in the world and (3) fear none of it, nor get impressed by it, knowing that my Father controls all things natural and spiritual.


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## Leslie (Dec 9, 2010)

What level of evidence does one require in order to believe? Most Christians believe in the resurrection because of historical evidence. Shouldn't one also accept a similar level of historical evidence elsewhere? 

One should also make a distinction between particular suprnatural, unusual events and persons who are supposedly able to do feats at will. These are two entirely different phenomena.


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## Mushroom (Dec 9, 2010)

Leslie said:


> What level of evidence does one require in order to believe? Most Christians believe in the resurrection because of historical evidence. Shouldn't one also accept a similar level of historical evidence elsewhere?


The Word of God is reliable, history written by men is not nearly so.




Phil D. said:


> So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron cast down his staff before Pharaoh and his servants, and it became a serpent. 11 Then Pharaoh summoned the wise men and the sorcerers, and they, the magicians of Egypt, also did the same by their secret arts. 12 For each man cast down his staff, and they became serpents. (Exodus 7:10-12a ESV) Ah, I see you beat me to this, Andrew...




"Secret arts" is the key phrase. This does not necessitate an actual supernatural event instead of mere illusion. I hold it was illusion. Prove me wrong, please.


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## Phil D. (Dec 9, 2010)

Brad said:


> Leslie said:
> 
> 
> > What level of evidence does one require in order to believe? Most Christians believe in the resurrection because of historical evidence. Shouldn't one also accept a similar level of historical evidence elsewhere?
> ...


 
So, Moses' real serpent swallowed the magicians' illusionary ones? 

I believe the biblical account deserves to be taken at face value. The onus of proving and/or supposing that something else is meant falls on the doubter.


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## Pergamum (Dec 9, 2010)

Pharoah's magicians didn't duplicate the other magic (because the bugs and things were too hard to hide in their cloaks maybe).


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## LeeJUk (Dec 9, 2010)

I do believe that indeed some have real power from demons. Not many but some.

I think its just a reflection of our fear of the supernatural as reformed Christians and anything outside of the canon that causes us to reject all these things. Even if you hold to the gifts being ceased due to the canon being closed which I do not, that would mean the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceasing not ALL signs and wonders ceasing including demonic.

In fact does Christ not say in the last days there will be false lying signs and wonders? The signs and wonders and powerful and real at times in my opinion, used to sell a lie but it doesn't mean the power is an illusion merely but the lie it sells is the illusion.

As for documented proof there are many people who have said to experience things, people who later became Christians or even people as Christians who have seen/experiences supernatural and unbiblical things.

I recall one story of a Christian who was a cessationist but feeling rather curious he went to one of these slain in the Spirit meetings and the guy touched him and he really did get a surprise and felt power. He apparently realised this is not something you play around with and got out. (Think Tim Conway mentioned this in one of his videos).

I myself once have experienced something rather scary that certain wasn't delusion or even willing on my part. I watched this video on God-Tube of people who were charismatic - mystical sort of heretical people...i didnt realise...and they done certain spiritual activities on camera involving "impartations" if you like. Next thing I know I felt weak all over and had to turn the video off and was like that for about 5 minutes. Felt horrible and very frightening.


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## Mushroom (Dec 9, 2010)

Phil D. said:


> So, Moses' real serpent swallowed the magicians' illusionary ones? I believe the biblical account deserves to be taken at face value. The onus of proving and/or supposing that something else is meant falls on the doubter.


I am taking it at face value. Secret arts is more likely to mean illusion than supernatural event. That Aaron's rod which had become a serpent then swallowed the illusory serpents of the magicians was supernatural, by the arm of the Lord. There is no example in scripture of a supernatural event that was not instituted by God Himself. I submit that demon possession is not a supernatural event, but a common occurance that only affects the mind of the one possessed. Is there any scriptural evidence to the contrary?

This thread is derived from the Pharmakos/Sorcery thread. One thing that taking hallucinogens taught me that apparently escaped others is that the human mind is capable of contriving all sorts of illusions all on its own when influenced by outside stimuli. But it was all hallucination. I knew people who thought they were in the presence of spiritual beings while under the influence of drugs, but I was in the same room, and there was nothing out of the ordinary. It was in their minds, but they firmly believed it to be real. I have no doubt that similar effects can be brought on by other means than drugs, such as demon possession, suggestion, trance, wishful thinking, or just plain psychosis are a few that come to mind. But it ain't real. It's in the mind. Usually a result of sinful desire or fear or belief in false gods.

Nothing happens that is not under the complete, meticulous and sovereign will of God. Those who believe in ungodly supernatural events do so because they refuse to love the truth and be saved, so God sends them strong delusion that they may believe what is FALSE.



> 2Th 2:9-12 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and *false* signs and wonders, (10) and with all wicked *deception* for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. (11) Therefore God sends them a strong *delusion*, so that they may believe what is *false*, (12) in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


False, deception, and delusion are not words that would describe actual and true supernatural events, but.... deceptions.


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## Phil D. (Dec 9, 2010)

First, I need to make a correction to my previous post. It was Aaron who cast down his rod in this case, which then became a serpent.



Brad said:


> I am taking it at face value



I don't believe you are, brother. The text simply says that "each man cast down his staff [Hebrew _mth_], and they became serpents. But Aaron’s staff [_mth_], swallowed up their staffs[_mth_]." There is nothing that says one _mth_ was real and the others imaginary. To assert so is pure eisogesis. To take the account at face value is to understand them as being the same basic entities.



Brad said:


> There is no example in scripture of a supernatural event that was not instituted by God Himself.



That is the classic fallacy of begging the question.



Brad said:


> I submit that demon possession is not a supernatural event, but a common occurance that only affects the mind of the one possessed.



Having read some of your posts in a previous thread, I realize that this is your position. I simply disagree with it. However, I guess I don't see any point in rehashing the topic. So I'm content to simply agree to disagree with you on these particular things. 



Pergamum said:


> Pharoah's magicians didn't duplicate the other magic



This is simply not true. " And the fish in the Nile died, and the Nile stank, so that the Egyptians could not drink water from the Nile. There was blood throughout all the land of Egypt. 22 But the magicians of Egypt did the same by their secret arts. So Pharaoh’s heart remained hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the LORD had said." (Exodis 7:21, 22 ESV)


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## Pergamum (Dec 9, 2010)

There is no record that the magicians duplicated all of the other feats of Moses. Some of them they did, as was already pointed out with the snakes.


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## Phil D. (Dec 9, 2010)

Pergamum said:


> There is no record that the magicians duplicated all of the other feats of Moses. Some of them they did, as was already pointed out with the snakes.



I would certainly agree with this statement, as qualified from the original one.


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## Peairtach (Dec 9, 2010)

The Brahan Seer predicted the decline and fall of the House of Seaforth (MacKenzies of Kintail) with astonishing accuracy, among other uncanny prophecies.

I've never heard of him being associated with the black arts, but would hesitate to say that his ability wasn't of the devil but purely a gift.

Brahan Seer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is unduly sceptical of the accuracy of his prophecies.

The book by Alexander MacKenzie gives a better account of Coinneach Odhar Fiosaiche ( Sombre Kenneth of the Prophecies)
The Prophecies of the Brahan Seer (Coinneach Odhar Fiosaiche), by Alexander Mackenzie et al. | The Online Books Page


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## Mushroom (Dec 9, 2010)

Phil D. said:


> I don't believe you are, brother. The text simply says that "each man cast down his staff [Hebrew mth], and they became serpents. But Aaron’s staff [mth], swallowed up their staffs[mth]." There is nothing that says one mth was real and the others imaginary. To assert so is pure eisogesis. To take the account at face value is to understand them as being the same basic entities.


No-one claimed the magicians' serpents weren't real serpents. The 'magic' was the change from rods to serpents. They accomplished this by 'secret arts', which to one who desires to draw an inference of supernatuality may be eisogeted as such, but the text does not require it in any way. Magicians perform like feats everyday in Las Vegas. Do you similarly assume they do it by supernatural means? If not, why not? You have just as much warrant to do so as you have with Pharaoh's magicians.


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## AThornquist (Dec 9, 2010)

"If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a *sign or a wonder*, and the* sign or wonder* that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, "Let us go after other gods,' which you have not known, 'and let us serve them,' you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him." Deut. 13:1-4


From this, Pharaoh's magicians, etc. I don't think I can deny that real supernatural and demonic things can be and are done. Have I seen them done? Not as far as I know. I don't think I could "prove it" if I had seen such things happen anyway.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Dec 9, 2010)

Brad said:


> to draw an inference of supernatuality may be eisogeted as such,


Aaron's rod ate up something. I am assuming that the text implies there was a material substance eating up another. I guess we can conclude that Moses and Aaron were dispelling just figurative things but I tend to doubt it. Especially since the text seems to be clear. By Faith I believe the scriptures as Hebrews speaks about. You can dispel by your scientific mind if you want. Why do I have to believe in a Virgin Birth? We can debate that also. The supposed Reformed have.


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## Mushroom (Dec 9, 2010)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> Brad said:
> 
> 
> > to draw an inference of supernatuality may be eisogeted as such,
> ...


Randy, I did not say that the magicians did not produce actual serpents. Please read carefully before commenting. Please refrain from nonsensical accusations. I have not professed to possess a 'scientific mind'. Quite the contrary.... my mind is generally jello. I have simply stated that there is no scriptural description of supernaturality other than that exercized by God Himself. To infer some asinine thing about my doubting the virgin birth is offensive and a violation of the ninth commandment.

If ya'll want to believe in hobgoblins, spells and boogeymen, that's your prerogative, but as for me and my house, we will hold the Lord alone sovereign, and alone supernatural. But I will not be idly accused of faithlessness due to that. My God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, reigns unhindered over all things, His Son, my Redeemer, born of a virgin, crucified, buried, and raised on the third day is God and King over all, and will share His glory with no other. The Devil and his demons have no power over the people of God other than that which God allows. The signs and wonders referred to are called LYING signs and wonders, because they are counterfeits - not REAL. A counterfeit is not a counterfeit because it is real but misleads those who follow it, it is counterfeit because it is not *real*.


> Zec 10:1-2 Ask rain from the LORD in the season of the spring rain, from the LORD who makes the storm clouds, and he will give them showers of rain, to everyone the vegetation in the field. (2) For the household gods utter nonsense, and the diviners see lies; they tell false dreams and give empty consolation. Therefore the people wander like sheep; they are afflicted for lack of a shepherd.


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## Damon Rambo (Dec 9, 2010)

Um, its not just Aaron's staff. In Acts 16 we see a woman who could foretell the future because of the demon in her. The scriptures actually call it a spirit of "divination." When the demon was cast out, she lost this ability (verse 19).

Another example is the demon that apparently gave the man superhuman abilities against the sons of Sceva. Likewise the demoniac that Jesus encountered, who had such superhuman strength that he shattered chains!(Mark 5:4).

I think there is no reason to doubt these things other than a post modern antisupernatural bias. Of COURSE they could do some things, assuming they were in the company of demons/ demon possessed.

---------- Post added at 09:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 PM ----------




Brad said:


> The Devil and his demons have no power over the people of God other than that which God allows. The signs and wonders referred to are called LYING signs and wonders, because they are counterfeits - not REAL. A counterfeit is not a counterfeit because it is real but misleads those who follow it, it is counterfeit because it is not *real*.



The construction of 2 Thessalonians 2:9 does not really support this, brother. It says that the devil manifests in power, signs, and false wonders. In other words, both real and fake miracles. Absolutely this is power granted by a sovereign God...but so too is it by the Lord's permission that a psychopath puts his hand on a gun and begins to shoot. 

How would you respond to the super powered demon possessed people we see in the New Testament? How was the demoniac able to shatter chains, and overpower groups of men?


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## Mushroom (Dec 9, 2010)

Damon Rambo said:


> Um, its not just Aaron's staff. In Acts 16 we see a woman who could foretell the future because of the demon in her. The scriptures actually call it a spirit of "divination." When the demon was cast out, she lost this ability (verse 19).


Please see the above quoted portion of scripture out of Zechariah.


Damon Rambo said:


> Another example is the demon that apparently gave the man superhuman abilities against the sons of Sceva. Likewise the demoniac that Jesus encountered, who had such superhuman strength that he shattered chains!(Mark 5:4).


I have a very stubborn dog, who through consistent running to the chain's end with a strong yank, broke every chain I bound her with until I finally bought a welded chain (technology unavailable in 33 BC) that held her. Was she supernaturally doing this? I have seen enraged psychopaths do amazing things. Was it by magic, or were they just nuts?


Damon Rambo said:


> I think there is no reason to doubt these things other than a post modern antisupernatural bias. Of COURSE they could do some things, assuming they were in the company of demons/ demon possessed.


There is a reason to doubt the supernaturality of these events other than post-modern antisupernatural bias. That reason would be scripture, where no event is given supernatural cause but the acts of God, and all other seemingly supernatural events are called *lying* wonders.


Damon Rambo said:


> The construction of 2 Thessalonians 2:9 does not really support this, brother. It says that the devil manifests in power, signs, and false wonders. In other words, both real and fake miracles. Absolutely this is power granted by a sovereign God...but so too is it by the Lord's permission that a psychopath puts his hand on a gun and begins to shoot.


2 Thess 2:9 calls these things *FALSE* signs and wonders. How do you possibly miss that? I think there is present here a bias towards giving the Devil and his demons far more authority and power than is their due. You make him into some kind of dualistic other god, in the same vein as the loopy pentecostals, then go about battling an invented enemy. We're not battling spiritual forces who have real power to perform signs and wonders, we are battling defeated entities who can only use deceit and delusion to drag human souls away from the truth. Part of that deceit and delusion is the idea that they have these powers, and we surrender the field to them when we chase after imaginary foes rather than the real enemy - the lies that enslave so much of humanity. Lies about what and Who God is, and lies about who and what our spiritual enemies are.


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## Damon Rambo (Dec 9, 2010)

Brad said:


> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> > Another example is the demon that apparently gave the man superhuman abilities against the sons of Sceva. Likewise the demoniac that Jesus encountered, who had such superhuman strength that he shattered chains!(Mark 5:4).
> ...



Brother, those "unwelded" chains bound teams of horses, anchors on huge sailing ships, and were used to hoist multiple ton pieces of stone. The manacles they used were bended 1/8th to 1/4 inch iron. It says he shattered them. That is not some psychopathic fit. That is an unbelievable supernatural amount of power.


Brad said:


> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> > I think there is no reason to doubt these things other than a post modern antisupernatural bias. Of COURSE they could do some things, assuming they were in the company of demons/ demon possessed.
> ...


 
No, it does not say that.

2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 

Notice; he comes with power (real, God given power), signs (real, God permitted signs) and lying (pseudo, fake) wonders or signs. Its both fake signs, and real signs.

Notice what John Calvin says about the demoniacs. 

"*Naturally, he was not able* to break the chains; and hence we infer that Satan is sometimes permitted to make *extraordinary *movements, the effect of which goes beyond our comprehension and *beyond ordinary means*." (Commentaries, Mark 5:3, emphasis added).

So I feel I am in good company. Calvin asserts that it was supernatural.


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## Pergamum (Dec 9, 2010)

This has been a great thread so far! I have been unsettled on these issues for awhile now. Thanks to the OP starter!


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## Pergamum (Dec 9, 2010)

One anecdotal story (for what it counts for): A friend here in SE Asia got "cursed" and within 2 hours had a severe bike wreck on the motorbike. 

Also, in missions among animists sometimes tribal peoples are reported to get cursed and physical ailments then occur afterwards. On hearing these reports I always wonder if these are psychosomatic primarily or if there is also a spiritual element at work, especially among the unbelievers.


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## TimV (Dec 10, 2010)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> Aaron's rod ate up something. I am assuming that the text implies there was a material substance eating up another. I guess we can conclude that Moses and Aaron were dispelling just figurative things but I tend to doubt it. Especially since the text seems to be clear. By Faith I believe the scriptures as Hebrews speaks about. You can dispel by your scientific mind if you want.



Randy one must be careful of the KJVOnly type attitude that says "You either agree with me or call God a liar" Besides, it's pretty basic theology that only God can create life. Those guys didn't, as you will concede after a moment's thought. Perhaps they paralysed the snakes and disguised them a rods, I'm not sure, but about the only think we can definitely rule out is that they didn't create live snakes out of dead wood.


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## JP Wallace (Dec 10, 2010)

"Satan Cast Out" by Frederick S. Leahy is an excellent resource in relation to this subject. Prof. Leahy writes from a Reformed perspective and deals with demonology and its manifestations etc.

Amazon.com: Satan Cast Out: A Study in Biblical Demonology (9780851512341): Frederick S. Leahy: Books


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## Phil D. (Dec 10, 2010)

Brad said:


> Randy, I did not say that the magicians did not produce actual serpents.



Really? You sure seemed to here,



Brad said:


> ...Aaron's rod which had become a serpent then swallowed the illusory serpents of the magicians...





Brad said:


> seemingly supernatural events are called lying wonders



Yes, but lying (or "false"), especially in the broader context here, is not necessarily the same as "fake."


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## TimV (Dec 10, 2010)

Phil surely you don't think those magicians created live snakes from dead wood? Isn't God alone the giver and maker of life?


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## Phil D. (Dec 10, 2010)

TimV said:


> Phil surely you don't think those magicians created live snakes from dead wood? Isn't God alone the giver and maker of life?


 
I believe the text means exactly what it says.


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## TimV (Dec 10, 2010)

I guess someone will have to start another thread dealing with whether or not others besides God can create life!


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## Skyler (Dec 10, 2010)

So, umm. What's the difference between the magicians in Pharaoh's court and stage magicians today, then? Or is there a difference?


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## Damon Rambo (Dec 10, 2010)

Only God can create life from scratch. But from existing material, and the proteins and organic matter already in the wood? Even men can do that! (Anyone seen how the scientists made silicon cells a few years ago, from existing DNA?) It is kind of silly to say that man can do it, using ordinary means, but not Satan/demons, using supernatural means. If Satan can zap him and our Lord to a High mountain (during the temptation), why would he not be able to do such a thing? The staff already contains God created building blocks of life!


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## Phil D. (Dec 10, 2010)

Damon Rambo said:


> Only God can create life from scratch



Or as put in theological terms, "out of nothing" (_ex nihilo_).


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## kodos (Dec 10, 2010)

As Damon states - if Satan can transport himself and Jesus, then it is possible that he could be able to "beam out" the staff and replace it with a snake. *Pure* speculation of course - but then I've watched too much Star Trek 

No need to create life from wood even!


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## Dwimble (Dec 10, 2010)

I think it is too easy to read "trick" into the magician/serpent passage when you are presupposing that nothing supernatural can happen except by God's direct hand. But what does the passage say?



> Aaron cast down his staff before Pharaoh and his servants, and *it became a serpent*. 11Then Pharaoh summoned the wise men and the sorcerers, and they, the magicians of Egypt, also *did the same* by their secret arts. 12For each man cast down his staff, and *they became serpents*. But Aaron’s *staff* swallowed up their *staffs*.



To say that Aaron's action was supernatural but the magicians' wasn't is to latch on to one word in the passage..."secret," and to impose the sole meaning of trick, illusion, etc. onto that word. But I don't see any reason to do that. The passage doesn't say that they "appeared to become serpents," but that the magicians "did the same" as Aaron and that their staffs "became serpents." It is described exactly the same as Aaron's staff. Further, it doesn't simply state that Aaron's "serpent" swallowed up their "serpents," but that his "staff" swallowed up their "staffs." The passage clearly says that both his staff and theirs "became serpents" and that his staff swallowed up theirs. We don't know how it was done, and there are no clues whatsoever about the means they used to do it, but the fact remains that it doesn't say or imply that they just "appeared" to do it.

I'm not one for the supernatural, and believe that pretty much every "psychic" out there is a huckster, but to take every passage that describes a supernatural act done by someone evil in the scriptures (few though they may be) as a hoax but every one done by God or his people as true, is to treat the scriptures irresponsibly. It is no different than what others do regarding God's works as well...always attributing everything God and his people did to deception or something that "must" have a natural explanation. How is it any different? In the one case some say, "nothing supernatural in the scriptures really happened" and in the other "nothing supernatural in the scriptures really happened...except those things that God himself did." I see no scriptural basis for saying that Satan has no power to do anything supernatural.


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## TimV (Dec 10, 2010)

kodos said:


> No need to create life from wood even!



Wood is dead. That's why Aaron's staff which sprouted is miraculous. Christ defined even a seed that would sprout as dead, and Peter said a deciduous fruit tree in winter is dead.

Nice loopholes, folks, but Satan doesn't have the power to create and sustain life. He can't make a Zombie, and after day four when plants were made he couldn't have taken over from God.

So, leaving what I thought would be something all Reformed folks would agree on, may I get more specific and ask exactly what gurus CAN do? Could someone please give me an example of what these folks CAN actually do that's supernatural? And be as specific as possible as to the time and location when giving examples.


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## Damon Rambo (Dec 10, 2010)

TimV said:


> kodos said:
> 
> 
> > No need to create life from wood even!
> ...



The staff contains genetic material. Again, are you saying that man can do something that Satan cannot do? Man can zap people back to life with electricity, but Satan cannot? Man can design a cell and insert dead genetic material in it, and make life, but Satan cannot? That seems remarkably pompous of us...


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## TimV (Dec 10, 2010)

Damon Rambo said:


> The staff contains genetic material. Again, are you saying that man can do something that Satan cannot do? Man can zap people back to life with electricity, but Satan cannot? Man can design a cell and insert dead genetic material in it, and make life, but Satan cannot? That seems remarkably pompous of us...



Damon, I've always, and still do, respect you, but you're gettin' your baptist on at this time. Man can't zap anything back to life. If the police come upon a crime scene with a guy dead three days, even in the movies no one gets dramatic, puts the leads on the corpse and says "clear!"

And unless things have changed radically from my uni days, we still haven't created life where there wasn't any. Were we to look, I'll be we could come up with a hundred verses which state only God can create and sustain life. 

But I trust I'm at least a little bit open minded. I'd like some examples of what these gurus can actually do that is impossible. Just one little example is all I'm asking for. Common knowledge doesn't cut it, 'cuz I lived in Africa and PNG for TOO LONG to believe in the X-files.


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## Damon Rambo (Dec 10, 2010)

TimV said:


> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> > The staff contains genetic material. Again, are you saying that man can do something that Satan cannot do? Man can zap people back to life with electricity, but Satan cannot? Man can design a cell and insert dead genetic material in it, and make life, but Satan cannot? That seems remarkably pompous of us...
> ...



No, but they can sure do it 10 minutes later. And some bugs and plants can be frozen for huge periods of time, with no functioning bodily processes, and be thawed and brought back to life.



> And unless things have changed radically from my uni days, we still haven't created life where there wasn't any.



Don't know when your university days were, but yes we have. At least, we have brought something to life using nothing more than dead genetic material, proteins, etc. Among other things, scientists have created artificial cells out of silicon, and injected them with dead DNA...and whala! Life. Not ex nihilo, of course, but neither was the staff and snake.



> Were we to look, I'll be we could come up with a hundred verses which state only God can create and sustain life.



NOW my Baptist is coming out. Show me in the Book that Satan cannot create life, out of what God has already made. I believe Satan can do whatever God allows him to do.



> But I trust I'm at least a little bit open minded. I'd like some examples of what these gurus can actually do that is impossible. Just one little example is all I'm asking for. Common knowledge doesn't cut it, 'cuz I lived in Africa and PNG for TOO LONG to believe in the X-files.


 
I do not know about this stuff. However, I believe it has happened, because the Bible says it has. A man shattering thick iron bands and overpowering several men, is certainly outside of the "natural" realm. Again, I agree with John Calvin, that Satan does indeed do some things outside of the "normal" realm.


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## Nate (Dec 10, 2010)

Damon Rambo said:


> And some bugs and plants can be frozen for huge periods of time, with no functioning bodily processes, and be thawed and brought back to life.
> 
> Don't know when your university days were, but yes we have. At least, we have brought something to life using nothing more than dead genetic material, proteins, etc. Among other things, scientists have created artificial cells out of silicon, and injected them with dead DNA...and whala! Life. Not ex nihilo, of course, but neither was the staff and snake.


 
, but I think you might want to refine your definition of "life". Not even secular scientist consider everything with DNA to be "alive"... including the frozen bugs that you reference (which aren't really bugs). Also, no scientist has ever injected DNA into a cells made out of silicon with a living cell as a result. That is simply not possible. The information contained within DNA is commonly fed into computers (silicon) and virtual living cells are then created (these are called in silico cells)... but not in real life. Be careful that you don't give too much credit to scientists...


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## VictorBravo (Dec 10, 2010)

NateLanning said:


> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> > And some bugs and plants can be frozen for huge periods of time, with no functioning bodily processes, and be thawed and brought back to life.
> ...


 
Thanks, Nate. I was about to say the same thing. If a scientist actually were to make a tangible life form out of silicon by injecting organic molecules into it, I dare say the entire literate (or perhaps I should say, "wired") world would have heard about it.


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## kodos (Dec 10, 2010)

TimV said:


> kodos said:
> 
> 
> > No need to create life from wood even!
> ...


 
I'm sorry - never meant to imply Satan could create life. I meant that he could transport a snake and switch it with a staff. A much better magic trick than we can do without the ability to teleport - but a trick nonetheless!

As for "gurus" I believe they are scam artists - almost everything they do is Uri Geller'esque.


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## Damon Rambo (Dec 11, 2010)

NateLanning said:


> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> > And some bugs and plants can be frozen for huge periods of time, with no functioning bodily processes, and be thawed and brought back to life.
> ...



Nope. They are "bugs" (i.e. insects). Apparently you have never heard of a Bugsicle

Also, scientists have created artificial DNA, and injected it into a non-functioning cell, and brought it back to life...

Artificial life

And no, I am not talking about "computer" simulations. Scientists almost ten years ago took silicon to create an artificial cell wall, along with other "dead" parts, including DNA, and brought the cells back to life. It was in my Biology II college textbook; I have been unable to find a link. Will keep looking.

I still do not understand your objections, nor has anyone quoted me something from Scripture that says "Satan can't do ____." This is one of those "Left Behind" popular theologies, that have no basis in scripture. Satan can do ANYTHING that God allows him to do. Satan gets his power from God, and the limits of that power are whatever God says they are.


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## VictorBravo (Dec 11, 2010)

Damon, what scientists are doing is imitating a virus. Indeed, synthetic DNA is an impressive technical achievement, but they get the synthetic DNA by convincing yeasts and other microorganisms to produce the required chemicals to make small chains that are hooked together. In other words, they use living creatures to produce what they seek.

Then they transplant the DNA into an already existing cell. This is what viruses have been known to do for a long time.

Note this Wall Street Journal story from May 2010. Scientists Create Synthetic Organism . Even though it purports to trumpet a "new living organism," note the quote of one biomedical engineer:



> "I don't think it represents the creation of an artificial life form," said biomedical engineer James Collins at Boston University. "I view this as an organism with a synthetic genome, not as a synthetic organism. It is tough to draw where the line is."



I think his acknowlegement is the correct one. Certainly scientists are getting increasingly clever at manipulating DNA and cellular function. But that is a far cry from saying they are creating life, even though they like to flatter themselves that this is what they are doing.


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## Damon Rambo (Dec 11, 2010)

VictorBravo said:


> Damon, what scientists are doing is imitating a virus. Indeed, synthetic DNA is an impressive technical achievement, but they get the synthetic DNA by convincing yeasts and other microorganisms to produce the required chemicals to make small chains that are hooked together. In other words, they use living creatures to produce what they seek.
> 
> Then they transplant the DNA into an already existing cell. This is what viruses have been known to do for a long time.
> 
> ...


 
I agree that they are not creating life from scratch. But neither would a staff becoming a snake, require life from scratch, either, The staff already contains the genetic material, which just needs to be rearranged. The scripture does not say that the staff "appeared" to become a snake. It says it "became" a snake.

I simply do not understand the theological problems with this. This does not contradict any scriptures. Why can we not simply accept what the text says, instead of doing eisegetical gymnastics to deny it, and hold on to a presupposition that is not even found in the Word of God?


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## earl40 (Dec 11, 2010)

Does anybody think here that The Lord would "allow" Satan to raise a person from the dead after being in a grave for a couple of days? Or would that be just to much of a lying miracle even for believers to not believe if they saw it with their own eyes. In other words, I agree with the "bee guy" only God, as attested by The Resurrection, can do REAL miracles.

"2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”"


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## Nate (Dec 11, 2010)

Tim,

Here is one story for you regarding specific powers of a guru – obviously this did not happen to me personally, but I had MANY in-depth conversations regarding the supernatural event with the individual to whom it did supposedly happen. I worked for 3 years with a scientifically superb postdoc from Taiwan. She did not come from a family with a religious background (Eastern or Western), they were firmly secular as both her parents were also doctors and scientists. She apparently grew up with a horribly disfiguring and debilitating disease of some sort. She actually refused to tell me what the disease was or how it specifically affected her other than she was unable physically or emotionally attend school or have social interactions with anyone outside her immediate family. No doctors could cure her or alleviate her symptoms. Around the time she was 13 or 14 years old, there was a famous guru that was going to visit Taiwan. Her parents were desperate for a cure, so they used their prominence to get a short visit with the guru while he was in Taiwan. Apparently whatever he did to her in that short visit completely healed whatever malady she had. Full recovery. Now she firmly believes that there was some supernatural power that the guru supplied to heal her, but she realizes that this clashes with her scientific view of life, and therefore theorizes that the supernatural power interacted with her biochemistry at some fundamental level that we currently can’t measure, but someday might. This whole story was a major impediment to her willingness to believe in the gospel that I shared with her over the time that I worked with her. She simply believed that there was supernatural power outside of Jehovah. 

Because there were so many important details that she would never tell me, (type of ailment, what the guru actually did), I personally don’t believe that any supernatural event occurred. Rather, I am more inclined to think that the timing of her “cure” simply coincided with the guru’s visit, and that confirmation bias is clouding her judgment. She keeps a picture of the guru in a locket that she wears on a necklace and looks at it all the time with obvious reverence. Very disturbing. 


Damon,

I was unaware of bugsickles – very cool! Apparently some frogs can do this too. Unfortunately, the source you linked to along with other popular sources I looked at (National Geographic etc) are completely misleading. Both the insects and the frogs have a very low rate of metabolism that continues while they are frozen. These animals clearly can’t be described as “dead”, and yes, they do have functioning bodily processes. You can see for yourself by checking the primary literature on these subjects. And, like Victor said, Craig Venter decidedly did not create synthetic life. Yes, he synthesized the entire genome of a bacterium. But DNA synthesis is done every day – I work with it myself several times a week. He did not revive a dead cell either – he replaced the genome of a living bacterium with his synthetic genome (which he copied from another bacterium). Venter is a brilliant scientist and is smoother than most with the media, but he did not create life.


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## Damon Rambo (Dec 11, 2010)

earl40 said:


> Does anybody think here that The Lord would "allow" Satan to raise a person from the dead after being in a grave for a couple of days? Or would that be just to much of a lying miracle even for believers to not believe if they saw it with their own eyes. In other words, I agree with the "bee guy" only God, as attested by The Resurrection, can do REAL miracles.
> 
> "2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”"


 
Um, that is a person speaking. What does Jesus say?

Mat 12:22 Then a demon-oppressed man who was blind and mute was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the man spoke and saw. 
Mat 12:23 And all the people were amazed, and said, "Can this be the Son of David?" 
Mat 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, "It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons." 
Mat 12:25 Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand. 
Mat 12:26 And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 

Notice, when the man was healed, and the charge was made that the muteness and blindness was healed through the power of demons, what our Lord did NOT say. he did NOT say "Demons do not have supernatural power." What He said was, in a nutshell "They would not use their powers like that." In other words, it goes against Satan's nature to help people. But Jesus never denied that Satan, or demons, had the power to do it.

The scriptures say the demons do real miracles. Revelation 16:14, for example. I have also been unable to find a reformed commentator of the 16th and 17th century that says what you are saying (that Satan cannot do real miracles). Can you point some out? As already noted, Calvin believed Satan possessed supernatural powers. Can you support your position from a historical church position?


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## TimV (Dec 11, 2010)

Thanks, Nate. My view of things is similar, that people often confuse cause and effect. An old Black man in Africa told me that a certain species of lizard would give you white hair if it bit you. I laughed and he got mad and say "Well look at me!"


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## seajayrice (Dec 11, 2010)

Julius Erving


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## Mushroom (Dec 11, 2010)

Damon Rambo said:


> The scriptures say the demons do real miracles. Revelation 16:14, for example. I have also been unable to find a *reformed commentator of the 16th and 17th century* that says what you are saying (that Satan cannot do real miracles). Can you point some out? As already noted, Calvin believed Satan possessed supernatural powers. Can you support your position from a historical church position?


John Gill:*
*


> *now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments*; or by their secret wiles and juggles, making things seem to appear to the sight when they did not really, but by dazzling the eyes of men by their wicked and diabolical art, they fancied they saw things which they did not; for the word has the signification of flames of fire, or of a flaming sword, or lance, which being brandished to and fro dazzles the sight.




---------- Post added at 05:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:41 PM ----------




seajayrice said:


> Julius Erving


Dr. J has supernatural powers? Well, I never!

---------- Post added at 05:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:42 PM ----------




Damon Rambo said:


> Notice, when the man was healed, and the charge was made that the muteness and blindness was healed through the power of demons, what our Lord did NOT say. he did NOT say "Demons do not have supernatural power." What He said was, in a nutshell "They would not use their powers like that." In other words, it goes against Satan's nature to help people. But Jesus never denied that Satan, or demons, had the power to do it.




He did *not* say that demons had the power to do it, either. That's stretching far beyond the meaning. He was pointing out the irrationality of the Pharisees' vile charge.


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## Damon Rambo (Dec 11, 2010)

Brad said:


> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> > The scriptures say the demons do real miracles. Revelation 16:14, for example. I have also been unable to find a *reformed commentator of the 16th and 17th century* that says what you are saying (that Satan cannot do real miracles). Can you point some out? As already noted, Calvin believed Satan possessed supernatural powers. Can you support your position from a historical church position?
> ...



John Gill wrote his commentaries when he was 3? Wow!

Is that all you could find? One hyper-Calvinist Baptist of the *18th* century? (John Gill was born 1697).

There is a reason I asked for a 16th through 17th century theologian. The 18th century, when Gill was active, was saturated (thanks to the "Enlightenment") with an anti-supernatural bias. In fact, Gill fought against this anti-supernatural bias in regards to God Himself, so was probably a bit predisposed to cede ground in regard to Satan.




> [/COLOR]
> 
> 
> Damon Rambo said:
> ...


 
No, what is stretching far beyond the meaning, is when the scriptures say explicitly "The staff *became* a snake," and because of modern rationalistic, non scriptural teachings, we turn it into "looked like it became". There is no scripture that says Satan cannot do such a thing; just a bunch of "popular" modern theologians, like Tim Lahaye, who deny not only what the scriptures actually say, but 1700 years of church history, as well.


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## TimV (Dec 11, 2010)

So what kind of things can modern gurus do, Damon? Surely you must have some examples.


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## Mushroom (Dec 11, 2010)

Damon Rambo said:


> No, what is stretching far beyond the meaning, is when the scriptures say explicitly "The staff became a snake," and because of modern rationalistic, non scriptural teachings, we turn it into "looked like it became". There is no scripture that says Satan cannot do such a thing; just a bunch of "popular" modern theologians, like Tim Lahaye, who deny not only what the scriptures actually say, but 1700 years of church history, as well.


 Nice dodge, brother. How's 'bout addressing what you quoted? It has nothing to do with modernity or rationalism; there are no examples of supernatural powers in scripture other than those performed by God Himself. Christianity is not a dualistic faith, notwithstanding the influence of spriritism upon some of its fringe elements, that have evidently made inroads into the Reformed community.

I thought Lahaye would be more in your camp than Gill's, whom you so charitably accuse of heresy.


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## VictorBravo (Dec 11, 2010)

Damon Rambo said:


> VictorBravo said:
> 
> 
> > Damon, what scientists are doing is imitating a virus. Indeed, synthetic DNA is an impressive technical achievement, but they get the synthetic DNA by convincing yeasts and other microorganisms to produce the required chemicals to make small chains that are hooked together. In other words, they use living creatures to produce what they seek.
> ...





I don't believe that the staves "appeared" to become snakes. They became snakes.

I'm just not buying the extra-scriptural pseudo-explanation that Satan was performing biomedical engineering to make it happen.


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## earl40 (Dec 11, 2010)

Damon Rambo said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> > Does anybody think here that The Lord would "allow" Satan to raise a person from the dead after being in a grave for a couple of days? Or would that be just to much of a lying miracle even for believers to not believe if they saw it with their own eyes. In other words, I agree with the "bee guy" only God, as attested by The Resurrection, can do REAL miracles.
> ...


 
Well what if you saw someone raised from the dead? Would you not believe in Him? Once again I asked a specific question to which I am still waiting for an answer. The only ones that can be given is either #1 Yes, God could allow a man to be raised from the dead by satan thus "nullifying" the Resurrection of Jesus and it would show he (satan) is divided against himself and his kingdom would stand? In other words, nullifying The Lords words. #2 No, God would not allow satan to do such because it gives him an attribute only God has.


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## Boosterseat_91 (Dec 11, 2010)

Brad said:


> No-one claimed the magicians' serpents weren't real serpents. The 'magic' was the change from rods to serpents. They accomplished this by 'secret arts', which to one who desires to draw an inference of supernatuality may be eisogeted as such, but the text does not require it in any way. Magicians perform like feats everyday in Las Vegas. Do you similarly assume they do it by supernatural means? If not, why not? You have just as much warrant to do so as you have with Pharaoh's magicians.



Actually, you only have just as much warrant to accuse Moses' "magic" of turning his rod into a snake as you do for Pharaoh's magicians. God was just as much sovereign over Moses' trick as he was the Pharaoh's magicians' trick. We do not have a divine revelation telling us that just as some legit God ordained miracle worker did this miracle so these heathens in Las Vegas did the same...The reason that Pharaoh's magician's trick (which I believe was supernatural) was false was because they associated the power to their gods...only after they could no longer perform the same miracles as Moses did they admit that Moses serves the one true God. They were deluded by a false miracle, not that the miracle was fake, but it was God allowing them to be deluded by their own beliefs. If the only argument you have against the interpretation of the contested verse as being supernatural is that you saw somebody in Las Vegas do the same thing then you are clearly being eisogesis...



> I have a very stubborn dog, who through consistent running to the chain's end with a strong yank, broke every chain I bound her with until I finally bought a welded chain (technology unavailable in 33 BC) that held her. Was she supernaturally doing this? I have seen enraged psychopaths do amazing things. Was it by magic, or were they just nuts?



You missed the point. In Mark 5, it talks about a man whose madness was caused by a demon. The text clearly indicates that this demon possession gave the man supernatural strength. This is not a prescription of what demon possession always is, but it describes this man's demon possession. 



> the Lord alone sovereign, and alone supernatural.



So you would consider demons and angels natural?  No one disagrees that the only source of something supernatural is God because He is sovereign. However, did not God give many men the ability to do true supernatural things as recorded in the Scriptures? God was always the source but he allowed not natural beings to produce them. The difference comes in the purpose. You believe that God does not use his supernatural ability to delude people, he only uses _pseudo_-supernatural things. Whereas I would say, from the many instances in the Bible, that God does indeed use his supernatural ability to delude people. The falsity of the supernatural event is not in its fakeness, but in the fact that they think the power comes from another source and, therefore, are more entrapped in their own beliefs. Was it not only after the magacians could not perform the same miracle as Moses that they admitted that his miracles were done by God (Ex. 8:19)?


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## Damon Rambo (Dec 11, 2010)

earl40 said:


> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> > earl40 said:
> ...


 
Not at all. How would someone else being raised from the dead nullify what our Lord has done? That does not even begin to make sense. 

Again, you are failing to provide _scripture_. Without scripture this is all just neat little conjectures on your part. 1700 years of Church theologians have spoken of Satan's ability to do supernatural works.

If Satan had a prophet that was to raise someone from the dead, I would do as commanded by scripture, and "test the Spirits" by the Word of God. We are not told to put our faith in extraordinary miracles, but in God and His Word.

Tell me, how does a fake miracle, that is well done enough to appear real, have any difference in result in your scenario? It does not. Again, trust God's Word, not seemingly miraculous, or even truly miraculous occurrences. For even Satan appears as an angel of light.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Dec 11, 2010)

VictorBravo said:


> Damon Rambo said:
> 
> 
> > VictorBravo said:
> ...



I am probably skipping to many posts to comment. But knew this would be come a Science discussion. 

I do believe there are such things that are counterfeit. Counterfeit Miracles come to mine. I am not willing to just willy nilly say they aren't supernatural. I do believe there are counterfeit gospels. They claim to be gospels but are no gospels at all. That doesn't mean that there is no Doctrine involved. There is such a thing as the Gospel and gospels that are counterfeits. They both come by doctrinal practices. It has to do with origin and truth.

So why can't Lucifer have supernatural powers as might the demonic?


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## Mushroom (Dec 11, 2010)

*BOO!* 
Sorry, couldn't resist. 


Boosterseat_91 said:


> The reason that Pharaoh's magician's trick (which I believe was supernatural) was false was because they associated the power to their gods...only after they could no longer perform the same miracles as Moses did they admit that Moses serves the one true God. They were deluded by a false miracle, not that the miracle was fake, but it was God allowing them to be deluded by their own beliefs.


So let me get this straight. God allowed a *real* supernatural event to be performed by Pharoah's magicians in the name of their *false* gods, so as to fool (delude) the Egyptians into believing these false gods had real power.


Boosterseat_91 said:


> You believe that God does not use his supernatural ability to delude people, he only uses pseudo-supernatural things. Whereas I would say, from the many instances in the Bible, that God does indeed use his supernatural ability to delude people. The falsity of the supernatural event is not in its fakeness, but in the fact that they think the power comes from another source and, therefore, are more entrapped in their own beliefs. Was it not only after the magacians could not perform the same miracle as Moses that they admitted that his miracles were done by God (Ex. 8:19)?


Then He disallows further supernatural events by the same folks to show them... what?... that their false gods have *some* power, just not as much as He does? How does this make any sense?


Boosterseat_91 said:


> You missed the point. In Mark 5, it talks about a man whose madness was caused by a demon. The text clearly indicates that this demon possession gave the man supernatural strength. This is not a prescription of what demon possession always is, but it describes this man's demon possession.


No point missed, sister. My question has not yet been answered, however. Did my dog break her chains by supernatural power? Did the psychos I've seen perform their feats by magic? Or is a person who is out of their minds or possessed by a demon capable of feats of strength and endurance beyond normal human ability because pain and self-preservation are absent from their motivations?

I believe the use of the word supernatural in this thread is in reference to an ability to perform feats that go beyond or violate natural laws of the observable universe. Yes, angels and demons are supernatural beings in that they do no normally exist as observable beings in nature, but the question is are they capable of performing acts that violate natural law. I say only when God institutes such acts, They have no 'freewill' ability to perform such feats.


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## au5t1n (Dec 11, 2010)

Job 1:12:


> And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.



Job 2:3


> And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, *although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.*



God gave Satan permission to destroy Job's family and possessions, and Satan was able to bring this to pass by God's permission. No supernatural events occurred here, but somehow Satan was allowed control over the events that caused Job's despair.


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## Skyler (Dec 12, 2010)

Question again.

What's the difference between the "magic" performed by Pharaoh's magicians and the "magic" performed by stage magicians today?


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## Boosterseat_91 (Dec 12, 2010)

Brad said:


> So let me get this straight. God allowed a *real* supernatural event to be performed by Pharoah's magicians in the name of their *false* gods, so as to fool (delude) the Egyptians into believing these false gods had real power.



The purpose was to delude or harden pharaoh. It obviously wasn't purposed towards all of Egypt as in Ex. 11:2-3, God purposed to prepare the Egyptians to give generously to the Hebrews and even Pharaoh's servants saw Moses as a great man so that the Hebrews "plundered" all of Egypt. 



> Then He disallows further supernatural events by the same folks to show them... what?... that their false gods have *some* power, just not as much as He does? How does this make any sense?



Um, no. The purpose was to show them that their gods had *no* power. Note that in Ex. 7:11-13, Aaron's rod being a serpent swallowed up the other snakes which the magicians had imitated. This should have been cause enough to convince Pharaoh who was in the right but instead it hardened his heart. 

In Ex. 8:7, the magicians imitated the bringing up of frogs but they had no power to remove the ones that God had brought up. Revelation 16:13 may be an allusion to this - "the dragon, like the magicians, intended to deceive, but God intended by them to destroy those that would be deceived" (Matthew Henry's commentary). 

In Ex. 8:18, the magicians are unable to perform the bringing up of gnats. Thus in v. 19 they say, "This is the finger of God." That is to say, they were overpowered that "this check and restraint put upon us must needs be from a divine power." It is as if God said, "Hitherto shall he come but no further." The magicians inability showed whence they had their power in the former instances and they had no power over Moses except that which was given from above. They themselves were not deceived by it, their purpose was to deceive pharoah. However, now even those who had deceived him said enough to undeceive him but pharaoh grew more and more obstinate. This makes sense because those that are not made better by God's word and providence are often made worse.

So the point was their gods had no power. Their snakes were swallowed, they had no power to remove the plagues that God had brought on, and they were not even able to imitate the third plague God brought on when he brought on 7 more. God permitted these delusions to be wrought for wise and holy ends, that those who did not receive the truth might believe a lie, and herein was God righteous. "Note, God suffers the lying spirit to do strange things, that the faith of some may be tried and manifested (Deut 13:3, 1 Cor 11:19), that the infidelity of others may be confirmed, and that he who is filthy may be filthy still, 2 Cor 4:4" (Matthew Henry). Is it too hard for God then to use his supernatural abilities to delude some into believing a lie?



> No point missed, sister. My question has not yet been answered, however. Did my dog break her chains by supernatural power? Did the psychos I've seen perform their feats by magic? Or is a person who is out of their minds or possessed by a demon capable of feats of strength and endurance beyond normal human ability because pain and self-preservation are absent from their motivations?



Yes, you did miss the point. This account in Mark 5 is not a prescription of what demon possession looks like. In other words, it is not saying that if someone or something breaks chains that we see as unbreakable, then they are demon possessed because that gives them the supernatural strength. Therefore, it is an erroneous conclusion to say that your dog breaks chains and therefore imply...what?...that this man was not really demon possessed as the Bible tells us he is??? The point is not that these are the symptoms but that 1) demon possession did happen during Jesus' life 2) The demon possession gave the man superhuman strength and a deluded mind. 

The hard part about this discussion is that there is not a standard given on which to judge if someone has supernatural powers whether by demon possession or what have you...The Bible simply affirms that demon possession was a real occurrence that sometimes resulted in supernatural abilities. Of course, it also teaches that God always had a purpose in allowing that. In this day and age, I am honestly more likely to accuse a man like I saw in a video once who was "preaching" in front of a congregation by speaking in tongues, screaming, and seemingly getting hit by an invisible bat over and over again to be demon possessed than the many claims I hear of demon possession or supernatural feats. 



> I believe the use of the word supernatural in this thread is in reference to an ability to perform feats that go beyond or violate natural laws of the observable universe. Yes, angels and demons are supernatural beings in that they do no normally exist as observable beings in nature, but the question is are they capable of performing acts that violate natural law. I say only when God institutes such acts, They have no 'freewill' ability to perform such feats.


 
You're not making this distinction: There are supernatural _beings_ (God, angels, and demons) that are not a part of the natural world nor under natural laws (like gravity). There are supernatural acts which are acts that go outside of natural boundaries (such as raising from the dead, etc...). This distinction is important since you seem to gloss over the fact that though God is the source of everything that occurs supernaturally, it can be done by non-supernatural beings. It can also be done for one of 2 purposes: to further delude someone who has rejected the truth (as judgment) or to sanctify someone (as a blessing). These are the 2 purposes put forth in the Bible but it is also important to remember that God uses far more natural means to judge or bless someone (especially this day and age) than supernatural means.

So, yes, anyone besides God needs God-given authority to perform a supernatural act not because God is the only one who is supernatural (because angels and demons are) but because He is the only one who is sovereign.

---------- Post added at 09:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:18 AM ----------




Skyler said:


> Question again.
> 
> What's the difference between the "magic" performed by Pharaoh's magicians and the "magic" performed by stage magicians today?



The magic done today has no bearings on this discussion. That's like asking, "What's the difference between Balaam's oracles given in Numbers 23 than the pagan prophecies given today?" The difference is that the first is given in a divine book and the straight forward reading from the context and the general principles from other Scriptures indicate that God granted them supernatural feats for a time to delude pharaoh whereas the latter is not. It's fallacious to use a modern example to interpret what the magicians did as opposed to what the context indicates they did.


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## Mushroom (Dec 12, 2010)

Boosterseat_91 said:


> Um, no. The purpose was to show them that their gods had no power.


So the magicians had power to perform supernatural acts, but their gods had none? Either the acts of the magicians were supernatural or by the use of sleight-of-hand. The debate here centers around that. Are you claiming that God, who cannot lie, actually performed these supernatural acts, for the purpose of deception? Because there seems to be three possibilities: 1) Sleight-of-hand 2) The magicians themselves performed supernatural acts, or 3) God performed them to deceive. Since God cannot lie (deceive), #3 appears to me untenable. That these magicians or their gods would possess real power to perform supernatural acts, which you yourself reject, as does the whole of scripture, disqualifies #2. There seems to be only one option left. Do you disagree?


Boosterseat_91 said:


> Yes, you did miss the point. This account in Mark 5 is not a prescription of what demon possession looks like. In other words, it is not saying that if someone or something breaks chains that we see as unbreakable, then they are demon possessed because that gives them the supernatural strength. Therefore, it is an erroneous conclusion to say that your dog breaks chains and therefore imply...what?...that this man was not really demon possessed as the Bible tells us he is??? The point is not that these are the symptoms but that 1) demon possession did happen during Jesus' life 2) The demon possession gave the man superhuman strength and a deluded mind.


Leah, the scriptures say the man was possessed by demons and he broke chains.


> Mar 5:3-4 He lived among the tombs. And no one could bind him anymore, not even with a chain, (4) for he had often been bound with shackles and chains, but he wrenched the chains apart, and he broke the shackles in pieces. No one had the strength to subdue him.






> Luk 8:29 For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. (For many a time it had seized him. He was kept under guard and bound with chains and shackles, but he would break the bonds and be driven by the demon into the desert.)


It does not say that he broke the chains by the power of the demons, that is something you are inferring without definite necessity. If the only way chains are broken is by demonic supernatural activity, which your inference would imply, then it would be an equally necessary conclusion that my dog did so by the same means. Or is it that due to his demonically-induced disregard for pain and injury, he was able to break chains, in the same way that the stupidity-induced disregard for pain and injury enabled my dog to do so?


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## Boosterseat_91 (Dec 12, 2010)

Brad said:


> So the magicians had power to perform supernatural acts, but their gods had none? Either the acts of the magicians were supernatural or by the use of sleight-of-hand. The debate here centers around that. Are you claiming that God, who cannot lie, actually performed these supernatural acts, for the purpose of deception? Because there seems to be three possibilities: 1) Sleight-of-hand 2) The magicians themselves performed supernatural acts, or 3) God performed them to deceive. Since God cannot lie (deceive), #3 appears to me untenable. That these magicians or their gods would possess real power to perform supernatural acts, which you yourself reject, as does the whole of scripture, disqualifies #2. There seems to be only one option left. Do you disagree?



Yes, I disagree with you. It is not #1, #2, or #3. God will send delusions to further deceive people and He is totally righteous in doing so. God will use Satan as an instrument of judgment and I am saying that is the case here. I've already referenced some verses, 1 Thessalonians 2:11 is another. Thus it was a supernatural act allowed by God to accomplish his purpose (as I've already stated) as judgment. I already answered this question in my previous reply. 



> It does not say that he broke the chains by the power of the demons, that is something you are inferring without definite necessity. If the only way chains are broken is by demonic supernatural activity, which your inference would imply, then it would be an equally necessary conclusion that my dog did so by the same means. Or is it that due to his demonically-induced disregard for pain and injury, he was able to break chains, in the same way that the stupidity-induced disregard for pain and injury enabled my dog to do so?



You are correct in saying that the text does not explicitly state something like, "and the unclean spirit gave the man supernatural strength." However, I am in no way implying that because he broke chains therefore he was demon possessed..that is totally wrong. Let me give this example (it will be a stretch so don't think I'm assuming any of it would or could happen). If I were given a genuine divine revelation that your dog was demon possessed, then I would say that he broke the chain by the power of demons. I would also say whatever he did was under the control of demons, or under control of whom he was possessed with. Likewise, with this instance, since we are told he is demon possessed, we can accurately infer that he was naked, had superhuman strength, and recognized Jesus as the Messiah because he was demon possessed. We are not told that any of these are specifically the result of the possession but, to follow the natural reading of the text, this is a logical inference. 

So, I'll say it once again. This was not _prescriptive_ of what demon possession _always_ looks like but a _description_ of this man's demon possession (along with the knowledge of the messiah and the nakedness and madness).

Please read my posts more carefully as I've already addressed many of these issues.


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## seajayrice (Dec 12, 2010)

austinww said:


> Job 1:12:
> 
> 
> > And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
> ...


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## au5t1n (Dec 12, 2010)

seajayrice said:


> austinww said:
> 
> 
> > Job 1:12:
> ...


 
Oops! Thanks for catching that. In that case, these verses illustrate the point even better. God gave Satan permission to strike Job's possessions and family, even with a miraculous event. God's statement in the second verse makes it clear that he is the one with control over events, but nevertheless he told Satan "all that he hath is in thy power."

What makes my mistake sad is that I read the beginning of Job a few days ago.


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## seajayrice (Dec 12, 2010)

austinww said:


> seajayrice said:
> 
> 
> > austinww said:
> ...


 
Rom 12:16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits. 

Thank you, Bravo Brother! Now lose the Harry Potter glasses!


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## TimV (Dec 12, 2010)

Boosterseat_91 said:


> You're not making this distinction: There are supernatural beings (God, angels, and demons) that are not a part of the natural world nor under natural laws (like gravity).



Hi Leah. I think most of us agree with you!! But speaking of modern gurus who train specifically to obtain supernatural powers, what miraculous things have you reason to believe that they actually do? I keep asking for specifics, and so far it's pretty much some European guy who foretold a family future to an uncanny extent and another second hand story. What do YOU think those guys can do?


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## au5t1n (Dec 12, 2010)

seajayrice said:


> Thank you, Bravo Brother! Now lose the Harry Potter glasses!


 
I do have different frames now, but in any case Harry Potter's glasses are circular and I have never had circular glasses.


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## seajayrice (Dec 12, 2010)

austinww said:


> seajayrice said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you, Bravo Brother! Now lose the Harry Potter glasses!
> ...


 
Obviously, I know little about Harry Potter, however I am a fan of Austin W. Go with God, Brother.


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## au5t1n (Dec 12, 2010)

seajayrice said:


> austinww said:
> 
> 
> > seajayrice said:
> ...


 
Why thank you. You too!


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## VictorBravo (Dec 12, 2010)

TimV said:


> Hi Leah. I think most of us agree with you!! But speaking of modern gurus who train specifically to obtain supernatural powers, what miraculous things have you reason to believe that they actually do? I keep asking for specifics, and so far it's pretty much some European guy who foretold a family future to an uncanny extent and another second hand story. What do YOU think those guys can do?



OK, Tim, I've been refraining from examples, but I fold. I know a guy who can eat a whole fistful of fresh habeneros without flinching. Maybe not miraculous, but spooky-scary if you ask me, especially after I tried just one.


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## Mushroom (Dec 12, 2010)

Boosterseat_91 said:


> God will send delusions to further deceive people and He is totally righteous in doing so.


So there are men who could truthfully say to God that believed a lie because He deceived them into doing so? Is that the correct interpretation of this?:



> 2Th 2:11-12 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, (12) in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.



Mathew Henry:_
_


> *God shall send them strong delusions, to believe a lie.* Thus he will punish men for their unbelief, and for their dislike of the truth and love to sin and wickedness; not that God is the author of sin, but in righteousness he sometimes withdraws his grace from such sinners as are here mentioned; he gives them over to Satan, or leaves them to be deluded by *his* instruments; he gives them up to their own hearts' lusts, and leaves them to themselves, and then sin will follow of course, yea, the worst of wickedness, that shall end at last in eternal damnation.


MH doesn't seem to hold that God does the deceiving, but gives men up to the delusions natural to them in their unregenerate state, and over to Satan to be deluded by his instruments. If these instruments are supernatural acts, then Satan would have supernatural powers. But you say that the false gods had no power. Scripture describes false gods as demons. So I'm confused. Two questions:

1) Does God deceive?

2) Does Satan or the demons have the power to perform supernatural feats that defy the observable rules of physical nature?

---------- Post added at 09:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:02 PM ----------




VictorBravo said:


> TimV said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Leah. I think most of us agree with you!! But speaking of modern gurus who train specifically to obtain supernatural powers, what miraculous things have you reason to believe that they actually do? I keep asking for specifics, and so far it's pretty much some European guy who foretold a family future to an uncanny extent and another second hand story. What do YOU think those guys can do?
> ...


Now I must confess, Vic, *THAT* sent shivers down my spine.

*Bwa-ha-ha!
*


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## TimV (Dec 12, 2010)

Vic that reminds me of the Simpson's episode where Homer ate chili made with peppers grown by inmates of a Guatemalan insane asylum  He ended up in the Spirit world.


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## Boosterseat_91 (Dec 12, 2010)

Brad said:


> Boosterseat_91 said:
> 
> 
> > God will send delusions to further deceive people and He is totally righteous in doing so.
> ...



No and no one is even remotely suggesting that. I'll say it again: God will send delusions to _further_ deceive people and He is totally righteous in doing so. This is the same purpose as God's Word - it will either convict a sinner and lead them to repentance or further condemn them.



Brad said:


> Mathew Henry:_
> _
> 
> 
> ...




Of course MH doesn't hold that God does the deceiving, I don't know of anyone that does. What you are talking about is clearly indicated in Romans 1 - that God's judgment on someone may simply be his handing them over to their sinful desires. I'll answer #2 first:

2) Satan only ever has the power to do that which he is commanded by God or is according to God's will. This is obvious from the doctrine of God's sovereignty. The Bible clearly indicates that God has allowed Satan opportunity to do supernatural feats.

1) No. It's the same thing with sin. We sin when God removes his restraining grace, yet we do the sinning and are fully responsible for it. We are deceived and are held fully responsible for that deceit. Many are deceived into believing their good works will save them but that does not make them guiltless.

If you want to appeal to MH, know that he believes that satan has done supernatural feats which I've previously referenced.

---------- Post added at 09:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:50 PM ----------




TimV said:


> Boosterseat_91 said:
> 
> 
> > You're not making this distinction: There are supernatural beings (God, angels, and demons) that are not a part of the natural world nor under natural laws (like gravity).
> ...



Hi Tim,

I'm not sure really. I think the work of satan now a days is used in much more natural days, especially in like the United States and more modern countries. We are much easier deluded by some feel good sermon than some type of mystical power, perhaps because we are much more intellectually enlightened, haha. I have a friend from the Phillipines who always said really weird stuff went on there with satan worshipers and such but since the Bible gives no hard and fast standard for what is a real supernatural caused by satan or an odd occurrence of nature, its a hard line to draw. I don't think the Bible forbids the thought that something was supernatural so I pretty much leave it at that.


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## Mushroom (Dec 12, 2010)

So granting supernatural abilities to magicians is not deceit, just delusions to further deceive? God doesn't initiate the scam, but helps it along by granting supernatural powers to give it credence? That's not deceit? Or at least being an accessory to deceit?


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## Jude1-4 (Dec 13, 2010)

Supernatural powers could be very dangerous, more so on a bad "hairday". I sure am glad I am not in control, but I know Who is. I heard a good statement at church services "watch out for the wolves inside the church" many seem to do the same out in this world. They seek their own glory, rather then giving God all the glory! James Taylor Jr laymen of Soli Deo Church, Southern Maryland


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## PuritanCovenanter (Dec 13, 2010)

Haven't been following this thread so this might be out of place a bit....




> (2Th 2:7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
> 
> (2Th 2:8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
> 
> ...



I believe it.


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## earl40 (Dec 13, 2010)

PuritanCovenanter said:


> I am probably skipping to many posts to comment. But knew this would be come a Science discussion.
> 
> I do believe there are such things that are counterfeit. Counterfeit Miracles come to mine. I am not willing to just willy nilly say they aren't supernatural. I do believe there are counterfeit gospels. They claim to be gospels but are no gospels at all. That doesn't mean that there is no Doctrine involved. There is such a thing as the Gospel and gospels that are counterfeits. They both come by doctrinal practices. It has to do with origin and truth.
> 
> So why can't Lucifer have supernatural powers as might the demonic?



Counterfeit gospels are not the real or the true Gospel as counterfeit miracles are not real miracles. Lucifer could not raise people from the dead....if he could in your opinion do you think The Lord would allow him to do so? If one answers yes, and He allows such, then the fact of God doing so in the past is nullified because the Resurrection is a fact that points us to Who Jesus is.

---------- Post added at 04:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:37 AM ----------




PuritanCovenanter said:


> Haven't been following this thread so this might be out of place a bit....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
So do I. It is interesting how this can be read either way from the subject at hand. I wonder if Aquinas wrote on this subject. I will look into it when I get the chance.

---------- Post added at 04:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:42 AM ----------




Damon Rambo said:


> The scriptures say the demons do real miracles. Revelation 16:14, for example. I have also been unable to find a reformed commentator of the 16th and 17th century that says what you are saying (that Satan cannot do real miracles). Can you point some out? As already noted, Calvin believed Satan possessed supernatural powers. Can you support your position from a historical church position?



Though I am not sure if this sums up Matthew's view on the subject the below appears to side that satan cannot do real miracles.

Matthew Henry....
Signs and wonders, visions and miracles, *are pretended*; but they are false signs to support false doctrines; and lying wonders, *or only pretended miracles*, to cheat the people; and the diabolical deceits with which the antichristian state has been supported, are notorious.


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## py3ak (Dec 13, 2010)

The difficulty with testimony on the subject, is that people often don't interpret their experiences accurately.

For instance, I have been told, by Christians:
Of a man being turned into a pig;
Of parents hiring a witch doctor to destroy their son's marriage: the marriage is now destroyed;
Of dwarves who used an outdoor shower;
Of a lady whose hair fell out after being cursed by a witch.

Now I never bother arguing that someone was not appeared to in a pink-elephant way; but that I accept what they experienced, doesn't commit me to accepting their interpretation of their experience.

So for instance, Lee wrote above about how a video affected him. No doubt, then, that is how he felt. But that doesn't mean it was demonic. I still have trouble thinking that making us briefly weak and cold is a priority for the demons, or a necessary sign of their activity. Thinking about Dr. Frankenstein this morning, and imagining myself in his place, had a dramatic impact on how I felt. Was that demonic, or was it a normal function of imagination?

As far as supernaturalism goes, it seems best to distinguish. God can work above, without, and against means. I'm hesitant to ascribe that to any created being. But that doesn't mean that demons, or angels, can't employ means largely inaccesible to us. That wouldn't, strictly speaking, be supernatural, since it is in accord with their created nature: but it could produce results startling to us.


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## Jack K (Dec 13, 2010)

py3ak said:


> As far as supernaturalism goes, it seems best to distinguish. God can work above, without, and against means. I'm hesitant to ascribe that to any created being. But that doesn't mean that demons, or angels, can't employ means largely inaccesible to us. That wouldn't, strictly speaking, be supernatural, since it is in accord with their created nature: but it could produce results startling to us.



Very well put.


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## Skyler (Dec 13, 2010)

Brad said:


> So granting supernatural abilities to magicians is not deceit, just delusions to further deceive? God doesn't initiate the scam, but helps it along by granting supernatural powers to give it credence? That's not deceit? Or at least being an accessory to deceit?


 
You mean like sending a lying spirit to the prophets of the King of Israel?


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## earl40 (Dec 13, 2010)

py3ak said:


> As far as supernaturalism goes, it seems best to distinguish. God can work above, without, and against means. I'm hesitant to ascribe that to any created being. But that doesn't mean that demons, or angels, can't employ means largely inaccesible to us. That wouldn't, strictly speaking, be supernatural, since it is in accord with their created nature: but it could produce results startling to us.



I guess great minds think alike. 


Summa Theologica

Article. 4 - Whether angels can work miracles?
Although the angels can do something which is outside the order of corporeal nature, yet they cannot do anything outside the whole created order, *which is essential* to a miracle.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Dec 13, 2010)

I guess we need to define supernatural. I do not believe that the Devil is omnipotent nor omniscient as our Lord. I do believe he can do things we can't and things that are outside of our natural bounds. I do believe he can be given permission to do things above and outside of their natural order. Just like the snake and stick thing. 

Evidently an angel use to come and stir a pool and people would be healed. 



> (Joh 5:4) For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.



Another situation that is supernatural is when Peter Walked on the Water. A mere man walking on Water is out of natural bounds. I believe that other men are granted that power and can be given the abilities to do certain things that defy nature. They don't even have to know God. And they will be judged for their wickedness based upon the talents they have. I believe that the demons and devils work in a realm that is above nature and they abuse those gifts and talents.


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## Boosterseat_91 (Dec 15, 2010)

Well, let's review. I'm saying that the plain reading of the text signifies that what they did was supernatural. They only argument I've noticed against this is that magicians in Las Vegas do some of the same things which is clearly reading into the text. This obviously did not give the magicians any credence (as I've pointed out). They weren't even deceived, they were deluded at first but later admitted that what Moses did was by the hand of God. Pharaoh doesn't seem to have been deceived either but he used the magicians as an excuse for pride and disobedience. I won't pretend to have it figured out, but if, as the Bible teaches, that God does send delusions as judgment, then I see no problem with this interpretation.


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## py3ak (Dec 16, 2010)

earl40 said:


> py3ak said:
> 
> 
> > As far as supernaturalism goes, it seems best to distinguish. God can work above, without, and against means. I'm hesitant to ascribe that to any created being. But that doesn't mean that demons, or angels, can't employ means largely inaccesible to us. That wouldn't, strictly speaking, be supernatural, since it is in accord with their created nature: but it could produce results startling to us.
> ...


 
More likely small minds dimly remember something they read, without remembering that they read it!


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