# Ballet dancing and physically intimate



## Mayflower (Mar 13, 2009)

I was wondering what your thoughts are concerning dancing like ballet ?

I have a daughter of 5 years old, and she ask me already if she could join ballet group. 

I personally don't like it (with many dances) that an unmarried boy and girl as dancing partners are so physically intimate with eachother during performance.

Any thoughts ?


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## OPC'n (Mar 13, 2009)

I don't see a problem with it. I think it is an art.


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## he beholds (Mar 13, 2009)

Do they dance with partners? If so, then I think you have your answer as far as what you feel is proper. 

I discovered something while reading _Shepherding a Child's Heart_ by Tripp. The activities we put our kids in should have an end goal in sight. Would ballet help your daughter glorify God and enjoy Him forever? If so, then I would say (barring physical intimacies with boys) that is a good thing. If the end goal is to make her a dancer, for dance's sake, or popular, or pretty, or etc...then maybe she shouldn't. 

If that makes any sense. And sorry, Mr. Tripp, if I've butchered your intended advice.


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## OPC'n (Mar 13, 2009)

I don't see how you could really dance without having a partner. I'm not seeing the sin here.


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## Honor (Mar 13, 2009)

I LOVE the ballet... it's sooo pretty and it will give her something to focus her passion on... think years down the road... she'll be practicing for hours in from of a mirror and a barr and not out looking for trouble. It will give her poise and grace. Stregnth and beauty. I say... with out a shadow of a doubt go for it... and if you look at a Ballet... the interaction between male and female is really very small comparitavly.

BTW if I ever had a girl that would be her nursery theme.


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## SolaScriptura (Mar 13, 2009)

Ralph,

I totally understand what you're saying about dancing with partners and sensuality and all that jazz.

However, I hope to alleviate your fears.

My almost 6 year-old daughter is now in her 2nd year of ballet. There is no partner dancing. At that age they are learning the absolute basics and their recitals (to be honest) are more of a comic routine than a dance. At her age she's learning basic coordination and timing. Not much else. Plus she gets to feel pretty and a part of something girlie - which is important since her 3 siblings are all boys.

So at your daughter's age... I wouldn't worry too much about it.

I hope that helps.


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## Grymir (Mar 13, 2009)

I agree with Sola above. Ballet is more of a strength and coordination thing. And I'm a person who would never dance with anybody else other than my wife. Ever.


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## OPC'n (Mar 13, 2009)

It's ballet not sensual erotic dancing. Are you going to make your children stop ballet when they do get to the point of needing a partner? Does this mean that we cannot go to the ballet? If we cannot participate in ballet dance, then should we abstain from going to the ballet?


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## smhbbag (Mar 13, 2009)

I will only say:



> It's ballet not sensual erotic dancing.



To any heterosexual male above age 12 involved - it is.


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## AThornquist (Mar 13, 2009)

sjonee said:


> It's ballet not sensual erotic dancing.



Sorry but I've always used the two interchangeably. 

-----Added 3/13/2009 at 09:12:38 EST-----



smhbbag said:


> To any heterosexual male above age 12 involved - it is.



Indeed.


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## OPC'n (Mar 13, 2009)

AThornquist said:


> sjonee said:
> 
> 
> > It's ballet not sensual erotic dancing.
> ...



Then we have to ban ballet and no one should let their kids participate in it because it sends the wrong ideas.


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## PresbyDane (Mar 13, 2009)

all ballet dancers must 













Oh wait that was my synical remark, Andrew you need to get out more, if ballet and sensual dancing is the same thing for you


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## Grymir (Mar 13, 2009)

Plus there is a big difference between classical ballet and modern dance that tries to pass itself off as ballet.


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## Theognome (Mar 13, 2009)

Interestingly enough, classical ballet was condemned in many parts of Europe during the early classical period for it's 'sensuality and impropriety'. I guess it grew on folks after awhile.

Theognome


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## AThornquist (Mar 13, 2009)

Re4mdant said:


> Andrew you need to get out more, if ballet and sensual dancing is the same thing for you



I could continue joking about how I little I "get out," but let me be candid: if I was ballet dancing with a beautiful girl my age, I would be sexually tempted. I mean, I would be holding a girl who is in a tight uniform and all that...yikes. However, if I was ballet dancing with a little girl it would be fun and I would certainly have no problem or temptation. Those are different situations completely. BUT if there is some young boy who is all sorts of uncontrolled while in puberty, I _know_ what he will be thinking if he is dancing with a girl of any age. In fact, I have no doubt that later that night in bed he will think about the girls he danced with...except they will be naked. As perverse as it is, it's reality. 
Honestly, I don't think that ballet and erotic dancing are the same at all, especially before the kids are going through puberty, as in the case of the OP, or if the dancers are adults.


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## Honor (Mar 13, 2009)

[video=youtube;dj48sO0jZYk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj48sO0jZYk[/video]

How is this sensual???? the only thought that guy is thinking is "Don't spin her so fast she spews"
It's art in motion.


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## PresbyDane (Mar 13, 2009)

Yeah I was really turned on by that video 

Athornquist you were right after all


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## SolaScriptura (Mar 13, 2009)

You people talking about sensuality and boys and partners and immorality... good grief. I thought this was about a 5 year old dancing, not adults or teens or perverts in the arts. 

If you want to argue about how immoral the dancing scene is, fine... but let me make it clear: they don't do that with 5 year olds. There is no partner dancing. It is a bunch of girls on line taking turns tapping their toes and spinning in circles on que, and they do that to songs like "You've Got A Friend in Me." (from Toy Story) 

And just because you start her in it as a vehicle to learn agility, coordination, discipline, etc., doesn't mean you have to keep her in it for her lifetime.


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## AThornquist (Mar 13, 2009)

Shaddap, Martin. Haha! No one said that adults performing this like Sleeping Beauty would be sensual or erotic. What would be sensual and erotic is when a 13 y/o who is desperate to mate has to practice over and over grabbing, holding, and catching a girl who is in tight clothing. Only _the latter_ circumstances have been spoken of questionably in terms of what the OP is asking, at least to my knowledge.

-----Added 3/13/2009 at 09:58:37 EST-----

Yeah, what Ben said.


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## Honor (Mar 13, 2009)

I agree 100%

now I kinda want a little girl.... Ben, can I come to your daughters recitals??? It's so girlie and cute.


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## SolaScriptura (Mar 13, 2009)

Honor said:


> I agree 100%
> 
> now I kinda want a little girl.... Ben, can I come to your daughters recitals??? It's so girlie and cute.



There's one in April, but it is more of a comedy routine than anything else... For example, some of the little girls will forget that they're supposed to turn in a cirlce clock-wise, but they'll instead go counter-clockwise about 3/4 of the way, and then remember the correct thing, so they'll stop and turn back around and do it over. So CUTE!!!!


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## Beth Ellen Nagle (Mar 13, 2009)

My how threads wander.


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## OPC'n (Mar 13, 2009)

SolaScriptura said:


> You people talking about sensuality and boys and partners and immorality... good grief. I thought this was about a 5 year old dancing, not adults or teens or perverts in the arts.
> 
> If you want to argue about how immoral the dancing scene is, fine... but let me make it clear: they don't do that with 5 year olds. There is no partner dancing. It is a bunch of girls on line taking turns tapping their toes and spinning in circles on que, and they do that to songs like "You've Got A Friend in Me." (from Toy Story)
> 
> And just because you start her in it as a vehicle to learn agility, coordination, discipline, etc., doesn't mean you have to keep her in it for her lifetime.



What if she really enjoys ballet and wants to continue as a profession? Will you tell her no after a certain age? Don't you think that will confuse her? It was ok for awhile and now it's not.


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## SolaScriptura (Mar 13, 2009)

sjonee said:


> What if she really enjoys ballet and wants to continue as a profession? Will you tell her no after a certain age? Don't you think that will confuse her? It was ok for awhile and now it's not.



I think it will confuse her only if she turns out to be a simpleton who is incapable of doing critical thinking.

Seriously, I try hard to teach my kids the principle of contextualization. A bit hard for a kid, maybe... but for an adult???

Come on.

But that aside...

From what I've seen of ballet, I don't personally believe that as an artform it has the same degree of "virtually inescapable" immorality as in other artforms. I've seen recitals all the way up through high school, and none of them have been immoral in nature or tone, so I don't think it is necessarily a problem. 

Now, if she chooses to go make a career of it, then she's reponsible as an adult for whatever she chooses to do... but I hope I'll have done a good job of teaching her that she should be home barefoot and pregnant. (Ok, that last part was a joke!) But seriously, I hope I'll have taught her moral reasoning skills.


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## OPC'n (Mar 13, 2009)

SolaScriptura said:


> sjonee said:
> 
> 
> > What if she really enjoys ballet and wants to continue as a profession? Will you tell her no after a certain age? Don't you think that will confuse her? It was ok for awhile and now it's not.
> ...



So you will tell her no if she wants to continue ballet?


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## smhbbag (Mar 13, 2009)

> How is this sensual???? the only thought that guy is thinking is "Don't spin her so fast she spews"
> It's art in motion.



It _can_ be art in motion, just like figure skating. But, respectfully, you are not a guy, and most likely neither is that male dancer.

Both of their outfits are borderline inappropriate, if I'm generous. And this is only a small sample of one part of being in one ballet. In practice and rehearsal - the outfits are worse, and elsewhere in performances, the moves are worse. 

The moves are obviously amazing and artistic. With proper attire, and proper choreography to make the man keep his hands and eyes to himself, it would be beautiful. To the disappointment of many, that restriction would disallow some difficult and beautiful ballet movements. 

I can certainly understand those who simply cannot believe it is sensual. But it is true. I am not paranoid, and I do not want my wife to wear a burka. But I know the male mind and flesh. Creative expression like ballet can glorify God in a way as unique as each piece of music. And I could genuinely watch it every day and not grow tired of it. Unfortunately, I cannot and will not go due to these issues.



> You people talking about sensuality and boys and partners and immorality... good grief. I thought this was about a 5 year old dancing, not adults or teens or perverts in the arts.
> 
> If you want to argue about how immoral the dancing scene is, fine... but let me make it clear: they don't do that with 5 year olds. There is no partner dancing. It is a bunch of girls on line taking turns tapping their toes and spinning in circles on que, and they do that to songs like "You've Got A Friend in Me." (from Toy Story)
> 
> And just because you start her in it as a vehicle to learn agility, coordination, discipline, etc., doesn't mean you have to keep her in it for her lifetime.



I should have added that I appreciated your first post, and I think it would be a great, fun way to let the 5 year-old girl enjoy something only for her. No reservations at all, and it has to be fun for the whole family to see. But I would also have to be aware that certain conversations would be necessary a few years down the road if she liked it.


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## SolaScriptura (Mar 13, 2009)

sjonee said:


> SolaScriptura said:
> 
> 
> > sjonee said:
> ...



Not at this point.

But incidentally... 

My wife and I have a rule that if my kids say that want to learn something or take up some "activity," then they have to stick with it for 2 years in order to give it a fair shake. My kids are fine with that. This is my daughter's second year. She has been regular about reminding us that she would like to stop ballet after the Spring recital and take up ice skating lessons. (She has gone on the ice a few times and thoroughly enjoys it... she says she likes feeling like she's flying.)


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## PresbyDane (Mar 13, 2009)

Hey guys what do you do with the weather channel, with the "hot" weather girl, just close your eyes for those 3 minutes of the program


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## AThornquist (Mar 13, 2009)

Martin, the hot weather girl isn't wearing immodest, tight clothing and doing full mid-air splits in my direction.

-----Added 3/13/2009 at 10:20:37 EST-----

At least not usually.


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## PresbyDane (Mar 13, 2009)

No but from what I can read in your post here your imagination is able to make up for that lack in the program


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## OPC'n (Mar 13, 2009)




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## AThornquist (Mar 13, 2009)

How does physically grabbing, feeling, and being up close and personal with a beautiful girl my age equate to having an imagination that would sexualize some lady on the weather channel?


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## PresbyDane (Mar 13, 2009)

I think what we need to keep in mind here is that it is not the act or art itself that is sinful.
In this case it is more the beholder of the act and what his mind will do with it that makes it sin for him.
So by all means if ballet makes you commit sexual sin in your mind, stay away from it.
But your sinful mind is the problem not the ballet.


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## Honor (Mar 13, 2009)

SolaScriptura said:


> sjonee said:
> 
> 
> > SolaScriptura said:
> ...



Ben... that's a great rule!!!!!! I wish my mom had that rule when I was a kid... her rule (until I was in highschool) was You can't join anything because you won't stick to it and it'll be a waste of money. Then Ironically she made me take 3 years of softball which I hated. WHHHYYY????
all my kid years I wanted to take two things Ballet and Horse Riding Lessons (not to learn how to ride I'm actually quite good, but just to be able to ride a bunch) I honestly think that if I were allowed to take those lessons then I wouldn't have ended up doing some of the things I did with the wrong crowd later on.I'd be to busy practicing.


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## Beth Ellen Nagle (Mar 13, 2009)

I think that what is at issue here is that "some" cannot handle it. It is clearly not absolute that it causes all to stumble or otherwise we would have to say that others lie when they say it doesn't. This falls to a weaker brother issue and so we need to be careful here to not judge nor flaunt one's ability in front of someone's inability. If someone is weak then we must be charitable. Nor should we condemn those who can handle it.


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## smhbbag (Mar 13, 2009)

> I think that what is at issue here is that "some" cannot handle it. It is clearly not absolute that it causes all to stumble or otherwise we would have to say that others lie when they say it doesn't.



I am very close to being willing to say that.

Watch some of the "related videos" from that youtube clip, and you have a veritable smorgasbord of public tutorials on sexual positions, intermixed with some beautiful, chaste dancing.

I do not believe that there is a single heterosexual male ballet dancer capable of resisting his flesh in such situations. And that is the _norm_ for ballet once the dancers have the ability to portray it skillfully.


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## PresbyDane (Mar 13, 2009)

Good thing you are not a ballet dancer then


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## smhbbag (Mar 13, 2009)

> Good thing you are not a ballet dancer then



The problem is not only with me, or in my mind. 

Getting in those positions with someone other than your spouse is sin, plain and simple.


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## LadyFlynt (Mar 13, 2009)

*I don't have the strength to read ALL the posts...so here's my piece before I land myself back on the couch with more meds, a pillow, and the remote*

The media is not in and of itself inherently evil. It's how, when, and why it's used or what it's used to portray. Ballet can be a wonderful teacher of skills and other such in girls. I would have no problem with my daughters participating in such a class with other little girls to learn poise, etc. However, if you have seen many ballets, you will have also have seen where ballet can be used in a very sensual and intimate manner and that is something I would NOT want my daughters to participate in. On one hand where I understand the artistic or practical value for certain careers (ballet, modeling, acting, etc), they would not be careers I could in good conscience encourage my children to pursue (the above three require a certain amount of comfortability with communal dressing and nudity, role playing in ways that we wouldn't want them to, etc). 



btw, my daughters are huge fans of Angelina


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## kvanlaan (Mar 13, 2009)

Sorry, my daughter was in for a season, but we don't anymore. I find girls that wear skin tight pants in public to be less than modest. What's the difference? Yes, I know that it is not "in public" for the most part, but when it is, it is with the idea of people watching them intently as they move about gracefully. When it is done with partners, it is very close and intimate, with a male who is not a husband putting his hands in places only a husband should - wholly inappropriate for any daughter of mine.



> I think that what is at issue here is that "some" cannot handle it. It is clearly not absolute that it causes all to stumble or otherwise we would have to say that others lie when they say it doesn't. *This falls to a weaker brother issue and so we need to be careful here to not judge nor flaunt one's ability in front of someone's inability.* If someone is weak then we must be charitable. Nor should we condemn those who can handle it.



No no no. Would you allow your daughter to walk down the street in a bodysuit with a frill at midriff? I don't think there is anyone who would say that this is appropriate wear for the outdoors. Why then onstage with the audience gazing intently? Sorry, I just don't see any way to justify it. I would be very uncomfortable with a mature woman strolling into my living room and spending time with my family dressed like that and it is not because I 'can't handle it'. 

If a man can honestly say that he is not aroused by women pole dancing and removing their clothes, does this make it OK then too? I think not.


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## AThornquist (Mar 13, 2009)

Re4mdant said:


> I think what we need to keep in mind here is that it is not the act or art itself that is sinful.
> In this case it is more the beholder of the act and what his mind will do with it that makes it sin for him.
> So by all means if ballet makes you commit sexual sin in your mind, stay away from it.
> But your sinful mind is the problem not the ballet.




You may need to clarify...what is your point and why are you saying this?  I only spoke out against early teen boys touching girls, not child or adult ballet. (Although some of the adult ballet is indeed tempting if I am not "focusing on the face." The typical tight uniforms are not exactly modest.)


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## BJClark (Mar 13, 2009)

Ballet will teach her poise and grace..it is not sensual in the slightest bit at that age.

One of my nieces took ballet from the time she was 4 until she was in high school, and she wanted to start running track instead and her dance teacher told her one or the other, she couldn't run and take the risk of hurting her ankles for dance..

and it kept her mind off the boys, because she was practicing so much..2 and 3 hours a day or more..and when my daughter asked her about the guys in her ballet class after she'd quit, she was like "YUCK, they are all to feminine for my taste"


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## AThornquist (Mar 13, 2009)

kvanlaan said:


> If a man can honestly say that he is not aroused by women pole dancing and removing their clothes, does this make it OK then too? I think not.




But that's so artistic!


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## reformed trucker (Mar 13, 2009)

SolaScriptura said:


> Plus she gets to feel pretty and a part of something girlie -



I live in a housefull of estrogen... they need their "girlie" things!


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## PresbyDane (Mar 13, 2009)

kvanlaan said:


> Sorry, my daughter was in for a season, but we don't anymore. I find girls that wear skin tight pants in public to be less than modest. What's the difference? Yes, I know that it is not "in public" for the most part, but when it is, it is with the idea of people watching them intently as they move about gracefully. When it is done with partners, it is very close and intimate, with a male who is not a husband putting his hands in places only a husband should - wholly inappropriate for any daughter of mine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Now we are comparing pole dancing and ballet 
thats like PB post writing and writing texts for "nudie picture" magazines.

In other words completly wrong


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## OPC'n (Mar 13, 2009)

You guys are missing out on some beautiful art that's all I can say!


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## AThornquist (Mar 13, 2009)

Wait Martin, but do you agree that as long as a woman is not nude and a man is honestly not tempted by her pole dancing, she can do her routine because of its artistic and physical beauty?

[Edit] -I believe that is the point of Kevin's comparison.


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## PresbyDane (Mar 13, 2009)

AThornquist said:


> Wait Martin, but do you agree that as long as a woman is not nude and a man is honestly not tempted by her pole dancing, she can do her routine because of its artistic and physical beauty?



No because the object of pole dancing is to intize sexual desire, ballet is not, I really honestly do not see that you guys can even make that comparison


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## Beth Ellen Nagle (Mar 13, 2009)

Let's all read the Song of Solomon.


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## smhbbag (Mar 13, 2009)

> Now we are comparing pole dancing and ballet



I am hearing precious few justifications on your side, but plenty of assertions.

Why is it wrong? Do you dispute that such attire would be acceptable elsewhere in public? Are you arguing that crotch-to-spread-eagle-crotch "dancing" is in fact decent? Would you genuinely not have a problem with a man grabbing and holding your wife/mother/sister/daughter that way in your living room?


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## PresbyDane (Mar 13, 2009)

So another word for american football would be Gay-guy-wrestling, trust me touching of crutches is involved and they wear tight pants


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## OPC'n (Mar 13, 2009)

Re4mdant said:


> So another word for american football would be Gay-guy-wrestling, trust me touching of crutches is involved and they wear tight pants



 I knew there was a reason I hated football


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## AThornquist (Mar 13, 2009)

AThornquist said:


> Wait Martin, but do you agree that as long as a woman is not nude and a man is honestly not tempted by her pole dancing, she can do her routine because of its artistic and physical beauty?





> No because the object of pole dancing is to intize sexual desire, ballet is not, I really honestly do not see that you guys can even make that comparison



So, as long as a routine is not meant to tempt someone, modesty is optional?


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## smhbbag (Mar 13, 2009)

> So another word for american football would be Gay-guy-wrestling, trust me touching of crutches is involved and they wear tight pants



Just so I'm clear - your answer is "Yes, tightly-clothed coed crotch-to-spread-eagle-crotch dancing is acceptable"?


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## mgeoffriau (Mar 13, 2009)

Actually, I tend to agree with Andrew. Ballet, for all its history and beauty and benefits, holds great potential for causing sin problems for _both_ boys and girls.

For girls, the competitive and catty nature of many programs can create a myriad of body esteem and jealousy issues. The emphasis put on certain body types and the pressure to conform to a ballet standard is often very unhealthy, and occasionally downright cruel. The very nature of the art requires intense examination of one's own body and comparison of one's own body to one's peers.

For boys, the skintight outfits, the movement, the proximity, and the contact are all temptations to mental sexual sin. The fact that there is true _art_ happening at the same time is not likely to distract the male mind.

Is it possible to conduct a ballet program or performance in a Christian way? Absolutely, but it's very difficult, and I firmly believe you better be careful. My wife danced since she was 3 or 4, and is a beautiful dancer, but she was very careful about what programs she attended. And even then, she still faced many uncomfortable and borderline inappropriate situations.


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## kvanlaan (Mar 13, 2009)

> No because the object of pole dancing is to intize sexual desire, ballet is not, I really honestly do not see that you guys can even make that comparison.



Many women see pole dancing as an art form. My wife and I were subjected to several minutes of listening to a nurse talk about what she was learning in her pole dancing class and went on and on about how interesting and beautiful it was and how _artistic_ it was. 

Greek males used to wrestle nude. OK b/c it is cultural and the norm for their society? And because it was not done to provoke sexual desire, is it then OK for the Christian male? I think not.


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## SolaScriptura (Mar 13, 2009)

sjonee said:


> I don't see a problem with it. I think it is an art.



Sarah,

Labeling something as "art" doesn't give it a free pass to do whatever. I'm sure that you're aware that all sorts of perversity takes place under the banner of "artistic expression." 

I'd like to know what criteria you would offer for what types of depictions or actions are or are not acceptable even within the medium of "art."


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## PresbyDane (Mar 13, 2009)

Yeah I can see how people who can appreciata art would be to fare gone to fix, so thank you 

So now because some sinful female nurses/pole dancers abuse the term artistic we are not allowed to use it anymore, is that your point?


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## OPC'n (Mar 13, 2009)

SolaScriptura said:


> sjonee said:
> 
> 
> > I don't see a problem with it. I think it is an art.
> ...



And yet you are training your child to begin this process.


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## smhbbag (Mar 13, 2009)

> So now because some sinful female nurses/pole dancers abuse the term artistic we are not allowed to use it anymore, is that your point?



I loathe vulgarity - but these dances are vulgar and I must describe them.

I will repeat again,and I am done.

Half-clothed (yet skillful) parading around to music, and sticking unmarried people's crotches together in public IS NOT ART.


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## kvanlaan (Mar 13, 2009)

> Yeah I can see how people who can appreciata art would be to fare gone to fix, so thank you
> 
> So now because some sinful female nurses/pole dancers abuse the term artistic we are not allowed to use it anymore, is that your point?



No, that's not it at all. 'Artistic' as a term is fine when applied properly. p0rnography is considered artistic by many but I know that no one on this thread/board would ever try to justify the misuse of that term. It's the pre-certified cultural acceptance of the action that is causing the problem here (not to mention the additional issue that it is viewed as _high-brow_ culture).


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## PresbyDane (Mar 13, 2009)

So when you pay to go see "nudie pictures" by the great masters in the museums like forexample pictures of a half naked John the baptist what do you call that


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## he beholds (Mar 13, 2009)

Re4mdant said:


> So another word for american football would be Gay-guy-wrestling, trust me touching of crutches is involved and they wear tight pants



But for the majority of the men playing or watching, it does not make them stumble. A scantily clad girl dancing with a boy, may make him stumble. Therefore, we are asking, would you want your daughter to be dancing with him?


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## AThornquist (Mar 13, 2009)

Re4mdant said:


> So now because some sinful female nurses/pole dancers abuse the term artistic we are not allowed to use it anymore, is that your point?



Brother, there are people who believe that pole dancing is artistic. Google it if you don't believe me  If a woman is scantily clad and pole dancing as a form of art, similar to how other women perform ballet in immodest clothing in many circumstances, is there really a difference between the two situations?

NOTE: I do not intend to argue against child ballet as described in the OP. I do think child ballet can be innocent, pure, and quite beneficial; the immodesty of adult ballet that is overlooked because of artistic value is what I mean to discuss.


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## kvanlaan (Mar 13, 2009)

> So when you pay to go see "nudie pictures" by the great masters in the museums like forexample pictures of a half naked John the baptist what do you call that



For the most part, I call it hedonism.


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## kvanlaan (Mar 13, 2009)

> NOTE: I do not intend to argue against child ballet as described in the OP. I do think child ballet can be innocent, pure, and quite beneficial; the immodesty of adult ballet that is overlooked because of artistic value is what I mean to discuss.



Agreed. We stopped it in part because of the road that lay ahead, not so much because of the here and now.

-----Added 3/13/2009 at 11:37:07 EST-----



> If I wanted to keep my daughter away from sexually active and sinful people I would have to make her leave this world as Paul told us



She should not leave the world, but why thrust her into such a risque part of it? Why not have her play ball or skip rope in the red light district in Amsterdam? (Again, we're not talking when she's a little girl, but when she matures.)


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## PresbyDane (Mar 13, 2009)

he beholds said:


> Re4mdant said:
> 
> 
> > So another word for american football would be Gay-guy-wrestling, trust me touching of crutches is involved and they wear tight pants
> ...



If we are going to discuss this I need a definition of sinful touch from your side of the camp, because from what I have heard from you guys suddenly almost every interaction can be made sexual, and if that is what we are aiming to avoid we will have to leave this world like Paul told us.
Still granted if you feel specifically tempted by it, do not do it, but you can not make it a general rule


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## reformed trucker (Mar 13, 2009)

Re4mdant said:


> So now because some sinful female nurses



Martin, I hope you're not ripping on Sarah... Don't make me drive over there by you...


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## PresbyDane (Mar 13, 2009)

You are allways welcome over here brother


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## mgeoffriau (Mar 14, 2009)

This is Elizabeth, Mark's wife, posting on his account.

I have been involved in classical ballet for twenty years, and though I will not attempt to respond to all the comments posted here, I would like to clear up a few misconceptions (on both sides) and also to speak directly to the OP.

I'll address the misconceptions first, just to get them out of the way and to get us all on the same page. 

First let me say that there is NO move or lift in classical ballet that involves anything so vulgar (and inelegant) as "crotch-to-crotch" anything. Those who brought this up might have seen something like this in modern dance, which is a competely seperate form of dance without a set of "rules" which unfortunately allows it to sometimes sink into lewdness. Ballet is so clearly defined that you can look up any step in a ballet dictionary - I can guarantee there is no such move listed. If someone was doing something crotch to crotch, it was not classical ballet. Since this discussion is about classical ballet, that move is irrelevant.

On the other hand, there are some moves that to put the ballerina in a compromised position. The ballerina is lifted one handed over the man's head, his hand is by necessity under her crotch (that's just the physics of it). That is by far the worst, the others are much less intrusive.

As to the other side, where women are saying that there is no temptation unless a guy is perverted, and that because it's art there isn't any real sin issue, I disagree. There is temptation, and certain moves can be inappropriate. I've heard it from the lips of nice Christian male dancers. Don't bash these guys because they're being honest.

I hope that's cleared a few things up. Now I'd just like to address the OP. 

I think that the key in protecting your daughter is not in this case to keep her from ballet. I think instead the key is to train her up in the ability to distinguish right from wrong, and to be chaste and discerning in any situation. As a ballerina I grew up in Vermont, in a VERY secular studio, but because I had my parents teaching, the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit's guidance, I was able to make decent decisions and keep from doing stupid things. I decided early on which partnering moves were inappropriate (it's pretty easy - if it makes you blush, don't do it!). I didn't dance with partners that I didn't trust or those I felt any chemistry with (that's pretty easy too - if he makes you blush, don't dance with him!). Also, though it's no guarantee, unless your daughter is a prima ballerina, she's not going to be doing much partnering. Even the best dancers are usually just in the corps de ballet. I did fairly well in dance, but simply chose roles that didn't involve partnering - for example, I was the lilac fairy instead of sleeping beauty. If I had been in that role I would have made it very clear what moves I would not do. To summarize, being a classical ballerina does not mean that you are forced to partner or do anything you're uncomfortable with. You always have a mind with which to make good choices. Also, there are many Christian ballet companies that your daughter could be involved with when she's older that steer clear of anything indecent, and would respect a dancer's ethical boundaries.

I know I haven't responded to everyone's comments, but especially to those that are honestly stuggling with this, especially the OP, I hope that this has helped. I'd be happy to continue this dialogue with the OP if you have anything else you'd like to ask about this.

Thanks, Elizabeth


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## he beholds (Mar 14, 2009)

Re4mdant said:


> he beholds said:
> 
> 
> > Re4mdant said:
> ...



Sinful touch would have the same definition on our side of the camp as yours. 
Every interaction probably _can_ be made sexual, if the sinner tries hard enough. I think we are just saying that for older girls, when they do start dancing with boys, the sinner may not have to try so hard to make the event sexual. I don't get what you are arguing against. The OP said


> I personally don't like it (with many dances) that an unmarried boy and girl as dancing partners are so physically intimate with eachother during performance.
> 
> Any thoughts ?


Most of us, "on our side of the camp," are understanding his hesitance in sending his daughter to have a boy dancing partner. I am also pretty sure that we are all qualifying the impropriety factor of ballet with if there are, in fact, boy partners at this age. If not, then some would still caution against sending her down this road where that will inevitably be the scene.

As far as I can tell, the argument on this side is something like:
1)If your five year old is dancing with boys, then we understand your hesitance;

However

2)If she would not have male partners, then this is not yet a sexual issue;

However

3)It is almost definite what her future in ballet would look like, so decide *now* if you will be able to stop it before she is 13 and being manhandled by a 13 year old boy, because that, we think, would not be able to remain a pure situation, at least for her partner. 

So

The question remains, despite the most definite artistic nature of ballet; despite its potential for beauty; despite its agility training; would you personally want YOUR *13 year old* daughter wearing leotards and dancing with boys? 

If that does not seem like something you would mind, then I would see no problem starting her at ballet when she is five. 

If you would mind that, then the five year old decision is a little bit trickier. 
But as far as I can tell, no one has tried to make that decision for the OP. 

You might counter with you would mind the manhandling, but don't believe that an adolescent boy dancing with a scantily clad adolescent girl has to mean impure thoughts are abounding. 
Now is this where the argument is? I have never been a 13 year old boy, so I cannot say for sure, but knowing that even one boy might be excited by that, I would not wish for my teenage daughter to be dancing with any boy, while she's wearing a tutu.

Edit: After reading Elizabeth's post, I have learned that very little boy-girl ballet would exist and that a girl is able to choose what moves and what partners she'll use. I did not know this, so my post may be wrong. But I'll leave it, because it is what I think the argument is, and I'm wondering what Martin does not agree with.


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## smhbbag (Mar 14, 2009)

> First let me say that there is NO move or lift in classical ballet that involves anything so vulgar (and inelegant) as "crotch-to-crotch" anything. Those who brought this up might have seen something like this in modern dance, which is a competely seperate form of dance without a set of "rules" which unfortunately allows it to sometimes sink into lewdness. Ballet is so clearly defined that you can look up any step in a ballet dictionary - I can guarantee there is no such move listed. If someone was doing something crotch to crotch, it was not classical ballet. Since this discussion is about classical ballet, that move is irrelevant.



I'm not feeling reassured. This move occurred in the first video I saw on youtube - Sleeping Beauty at the Paris Opera, and multiple others.


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## mgeoffriau (Mar 14, 2009)

Elizabeth says:

Even if there were such a move, see the last paragraph in my previous post. You are not required to perform or practice all partnering moves.

If you can refer me to a video with a move like you described, I'd be happy to look at it.


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## Quickened (Mar 14, 2009)

It seems alot of assumptions are being made concerning those in ballet who are older. From what i have been reading it makes it seem like anyone over the age of 10 will fall to the intense sexual temptation that the ballet brings.

Not everyone is a rabid lust puppet. It is entirely possible to preform with partners with out caving to or generating any sexual desire.

It almost seems to imply to me that the male and female meeting in these situations are almost destined to fall to "temptation" but what is being overlooked is all the variables that create sexual tension or attraction. Its not simpily meeting the opposite sex or interacting with them that would create this.

There are some people that are machines about this kind of stuff and its all about nailing the perfect performance or not being nervous in front of a crowd.

That fact that were even discussing this when the topic was about a 5 year old blows my mind.


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## Mayflower (Mar 14, 2009)

Quickened said:


> It seems alot of assumptions are being made concerning those in ballet who are older. From what i have been reading it makes it seem like anyone over the age of 10 will fall to the intense sexual temptation that the ballet brings.
> 
> Not everyone is a rabid lust puppet. It is entirely possible to preform with partners with out caving to or generating any sexual desire.
> 
> ...



Iam sorry if i made myself not clear.
With the age of 5 years old is not issue of being tempted, but what about the fact if she wants to keep diong ballet and she comes older that is what i mean. I would feel sorry if i let her do Ballet from age of 5 years old, and shen becomes for example 15 years old that i have to say "well it is not proper to do this dancing because of the physical intimacy with a male partner".


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## Carolyn (Mar 14, 2009)

It was very helpful of Elizabeth to explain what constitutes classical ballet. Some parents have been deceived by dance studios who advertise their program as "ballet" when it is very much modern dance.

Well over ten years ago, I was out on our deck looking down at the neighbor girls performing one of their recital pieces in the yard below. My husband came home from work and joined me on the deck. He looked down and said, "so what bizarre mating ritual is this?" I looked back at the girls and they had their backs to us and were leaning over with their hands on their knees, bouncing up and down and looking over their shoulders at us. I was horrified. Later, I asked the mom next door if she was comfortable with the dances they did. She replied she didn't really watch the dancing. It was all she could do to get the hair and makeup right and afford the costumes. She and her husband were very conservative Christians, and told people that their daughters were in "ballet".

Did the parents make a good decision about this activity for their daughters? I do not think they did. What were the results of this decision? I don't know. The last I heard, all three girls who participated are happily married and all the families attend the parents' church. 

All I know is that: 1. It is a bad idea to fly in the face of God's commands. 2. God does have mercy on sinners. 3. It is a bad idea to "straddle the line" and count on God's mercy. 4. It is a bad idea to make pronouncements about the future because we don't know where God's judgments and mercies will lie, regarding our own lives and in the lives of others.

I understand you parents here are putting a lot of thought and prayer in how to educate and nurture your children. As a member of your Christian family, I will rejoice with you in the successes your children experience and I will cry with you when they sin and disappoint you. I will laugh exuberantly when you exclaim over God's bounteous provision for your lovely child and I will put my arm on your shoulder and sit with you when you sob that you didn't think they would ever be like this.

Whether it is ballet, sports, or education education choices, it makes me glad to read that you are making those decisions thoughtfully, prayerfully, and with the aim of glorifying God.

Bless you all!


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## mgeoffriau (Mar 14, 2009)

I have performed in sleeping beauty myself, as I said in my post, but despite this, just to be doubly sure, I looked at all the pas de deux in sleeping beauty on youtube that smhbbag referenced. To the untrained eye (no offence meant, you understand) it understandably may look like there are crotches touching in one particular movement. They are not. As I thought, this is the original, traditional choreography that goes with Tchaikovski's music, and at no point do crotches touch!  If they were to touch, 1. it would be incorrect form, and 2. If she were leaning into him that much she would fall over or at least get wobbly. But even if, hypothetically, there were such a move, my main point remains - no one can make her do it. This is a free country, after all. Hope that helps. Elizabeth


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## py3ak (Mar 14, 2009)

*Watch the Acrimony*

[Moderator]*I understand that such questions always tend to rouse a lot of emotion on the part of the participants, but everyone needs to keep it calm and pleasant in here. I've cleaned the thread up once, but if it starts going downhill again I will lock it.*[/Moderator]


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## ColdSilverMoon (Mar 14, 2009)

Re4mdant said:


> I think what we need to keep in mind here is that it is not the act or art itself that is sinful.
> In this case it is more the beholder of the act and what his mind will do with it that makes it sin for him.
> So by all means if ballet makes you commit sexual sin in your mind, stay away from it.
> But your sinful mind is the problem not the ballet.



Great post, Martin - I think this is exactly right. If someone is tempted or led to sinful thoughts by watching and/or performing ballet, then they should avoid it. If it's not a stumbling block, then there's no reason to stop. 

Many posts on here convey the idea that certain states of dress or undress or certain types of dance are inherently sinful. Yet there is no biblical support for this. Modesty is an important biblical concept, but the definition varies greatly according to culture and context. Wearing tights that ballet dancers wear may not be appropriate walking down the street, but it is appropriate in the context of ballet rehearsals or performances. The same goes for swimmers wearing Speedos - in the pool it makes sense, walking down the street seems out of place. 

So in the right cultural and contextual setting there is nothing wrong ballet, or most forms of art for that matter. Yet if any of it causes someone in the audience to sin, that person should simply skip the performance and use their time for something else.


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## greenbaggins (Mar 14, 2009)

I agree with Mason. Different consciences will draw the line in different places. This doesn't mean that there is no fixed line beyond which a Christian may not go. But, having watched a fair bit of ballet, I can testify that the line does not exist, or is pretty far out in classical ballet. Elizabeth mentions that there is just about one move that is inappropriate. I watched ballet as a teen. Being a red-blooded American male, you can be sure that if there was any temptation for lust, I would have been very aware of it. There simply was not. I think the main reason for this is the _intention_ behind classical ballet, which certainly is not to arouse, but to dazzle with the physical prowess, and the artistic grace with which the bodies move, and to say something beautiful about art. Mason also has good points about costume. The analogy with bathing suits is well-placed. Even modest bathing suits are immodest if we take them out of their appropriate context.


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## AltogetherLovely (Mar 14, 2009)

> I have performed in sleeping beauty myself, as I said in my post, but despite this, just to be doubly sure, I looked at all the pas de deux in sleeping beauty on youtube that smhbbag referenced. To the untrained eye (no offence meant, you understand) it understandably may look like there are crotches touching in one particular movement. They are not. As I thought, this is the original, traditional choreography that goes with Tchaikovski's music, and at no point do crotches touch! If they were to touch, 1. it would be incorrect form, and 2. If she were leaning into him that much she would fall over or at least get wobbly. But even if, hypothetically, there were such a move, my main point remains - no one can make her do it. This is a free country, after all. Hope that helps.



My eye is untrained, but I knew their crotches weren't touching, and I know they are not supposed to. It does not matter one bit - there is no meaningful difference between having a foot of space and no space.

In my mind, it also does not matter that no dancer is forced to do the move. You are forced to be there and watch it, whether as an audience or fellow cast member. And I maintain my skepticism of any claim (especially by a male) that someone can continually see those "dances" and remain unaffected.


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## jwithnell (Mar 14, 2009)

It seems like only a tiny fraction get to the point of being in some lead role with the rest being in the dance version of "the chorus." This discussion is somewhat like worrying about your 5-year-old musician and whether or not she could handle the fame when she's a world-class performer.

I took a ballet class in college. It took an amazing amount of concentration, discipline and control. If you can do all that and think about the opposite sex, more power to you. The final was choreographing and performing a two-minute dance. That was an eternity and took more work than most of my 5-hour academic credits.


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## jonmo (Mar 16, 2009)

kvanlaan said:


> Would you allow your daughter to walk down the street in a bodysuit with a frill at midriff? I don't think there is anyone who would say that this is appropriate wear for the outdoors.



Would you apply the same logic to swimsuits or tennis outfits that you apply to ballet outfits?


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## Augusta (Mar 16, 2009)

I think he would Jon, based on a swimsuit thread a while ago.


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## acsmith (Mar 16, 2009)

greenbaggins said:


> I agree with Mason. Different consciences will draw the line in different places. This doesn't mean that there is no fixed line beyond which a Christian may not go. But, having watched a fair bit of ballet, I can testify that the line does not exist, or is pretty far out in classical ballet. Elizabeth mentions that there is just about one move that is inappropriate. I watched ballet as a teen. Being a red-blooded American male, you can be sure that if there was any temptation for lust, I would have been very aware of it. There simply was not. I think the main reason for this is the _intention_ behind classical ballet, which certainly is not to arouse, but to dazzle with the physical prowess, and the artistic grace with which the bodies move, and to say something beautiful about art. Mason also has good points about costume. The analogy with bathing suits is well-placed. Even modest bathing suits are immodest if we take them out of their appropriate context.




The idea of individual consciences deciding holds merit. 

As the oldest of 3 children, the younger two both being girls, I grew up going to ballet recitals. I even danced a waltz with my youngest sister in Beauty and the Beast her senior year. That said, I don't remember a time throughout the raging hormone years, that I was moved to sin watching ballet. I think many of the sexual questions about ballet have more to do with the individuals mind than ballet it self. For example, if you have a perverted choreographer, obviously the dance will have sexual connotations. The dancers who dance and choreograph dances to honor the Lord, do so.

My sister has since joined a Christian ballet company. They dance Classical ballet, not the interpretive movement stuff. The dances they do are quite worshipful, always to God glorifying lyrics. While I don't think I agree with it being in a worship service, going to one of their shows defiantly points to the glory of God and accentuating the lyrics they are dancing to.

I see _classical_ ballet in the same light as fine art. The dedication and skill it takes to make it happen adds to the appreciation. 

For the OP, I watched it develop some serious discipline in my youngest sister. Much like a sport would.


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## DonP (Mar 24, 2009)

Why would you want to put impressionable young kids into something that you say well now it is OK because you are little but later would say it is wrong??

And certainly anything more than folk dancing where there is not much touching or body contact is a temptation of the flesh. 

Why not have them get in an exercise class or tap dance or gymnastics or something that is not a partner intimate contact activity. 

Remember 1 Tim 4:8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.KJV

Now I recognize we are a sedentary society unlike our ancestors so some exercise may be worthwhile, but not co-ed dancing. So why start one out on it an confuse them. 

Physical touch is such a dangerous thing. Many people are so sensual and needy for touch they can become addicted easily. Why don['t we give kids alcohol? Why do we protect kids from many things? Just as some people take one hit of a drug and are addicted why put a child in a situation where they can. 
So though it seems innocent and safe enough for the preteens, how do you later tell them they must stop because it isn't good for teens or co-ed? I'd rather have them do Yoga or martial arts and tell them not to get into the philosophy just stretch. 

And this verse doesn't say except at the beach and on stage; how far we have fallen from purity. 1 Tim 2:9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, NKJV


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## SolaScriptura (Mar 25, 2009)

I thought this thread had gone the way of the dinosaurs. I guess I was wrong.


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## LadyFlynt (Mar 25, 2009)

PeaceMaker said:


> Why would you want to put impressionable young kids into something that you say well now it is OK because you are little but later would say it is wrong??
> 
> And certainly anything more than folk dancing where there is not much touching or body contact is a temptation of the flesh.
> 
> ...



Because in the younger children's classes, there isn't the body contact.


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## OPC'n (Mar 25, 2009)

SolaScriptura said:


> I thought this thread had gone the way of the dinosaurs. I guess I was wrong.



Amen!


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