# Oliver Cromwell



## VirginiaHuguenot (Jun 30, 2004)

I would like to know what others think of Oliver Cromwell. Was he a &quot;good&quot; guy or a &quot;bad&quot; guy? (I realize that man's character -- in particular a historical personage -- is complex and that it is for God alone to judge the human heart, but from the historical record, what can we say about the Lord Protector of England?)

Was he correct to include in his army all sorts of Protestants across the spectrum of orthodoxy in the English Civil War?

Was he right to overthrow/execute King Charles I?

Was the period of the Protectorate/Commonwealth a noble period in the history of England?

Was he directly involved in the death of presbyterian Christopher Love?

Was he justified his conflict with the Scots/Presbyterians?

Was he a liberator or a tyrant?

What was his greatest legacy? (Westminster Assembly and documents? Civil war? Overthrow of a king? Military conflicts with Spain and Ireland? ...)

Let me know your thoughts. Thanks!


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## turmeric (Jun 30, 2004)

Oliver, in my opinion, was a mixed bag. His best legacy may be the English civil service which started in his time to care for the poor. Also he allowed the Jews to re-enter London, from which they had been excluded since the thirteenth century, I believe.

What he did in Ireland was wrong, also his approach to politics and war was Machiavellian, also according to Romans 13, the whole civil war was an error, and executing the king was indefensible. From a political standpoint, he had no choice.

At least England got a chance to try republican government for a while. No doubt our forefathers learned a thing or two from the experiment. I don't think Cromwell was a tyrant, he forbade Episcopal worship, but appeared to practice a &quot;don't ask,don't tell&quot; policy about it, letting it exist underground. He also permitted King Charles I to have an Anglican priest while in prison.

I trust he was simul iustus et peccator.

P.S. I don't remember where I read all this stuff, but Christopher Hill featured largely in my reading a while back. Watch out, though, I hear he was a Marxist.

[Edited on 6-30-2004 by turmeric]


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Jun 30, 2004)

Was he correct to include in his army all sorts of Protestants across the spectrum of orthodoxy in the English Civil War? 

[quote:d8271bfa91]Was he right to overthrow/execute King Charles I? [/quote:d8271bfa91]

Yes, most assuredly.

[quote:d8271bfa91]Was the period of the Protectorate/Commonwealth a noble period in the history of England? [/quote:d8271bfa91]

Not because of Cromwell, but because of the Westminster Assembly.

[quote:d8271bfa91]Was he directly involved in the death of presbyterian Christopher Love? [/quote:d8271bfa91]

Unfortuately he was. he uncovered a &quot;plot&quot; that involved William jenkins, Thomas Watson and Love, among others and imprisoned them. Others were released and Love ewas beheaded. Love denied the charges.

[quote:d8271bfa91]Was he justified his conflict with the Scots/Presbyterians? [/quote:d8271bfa91]

Not even a little. This is where he broke the Solemn League and Covenant.

[quote:d8271bfa91]Was he a liberator or a tyrant? [/quote:d8271bfa91]

Both. Depends on which aspect of history you are looking at.

What was his greatest legacy? (Westminster Assembly and documents? Civil war? Overthrow of a king? Military conflicts with Spain and Ireland? ...)

Overthrow of a king, and having the WA meeting at the same time as his protectorship.


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## cupotea (Jul 6, 2004)

It sounds like you might already be reading it, but if you aren't let me recommend Dame Antonia Fraser's biography of Cromwell it is as comprehensive as it is well-written.

Fraser is, herself, something of a Tory but she deals very fairly with the Lord Protector and he comes out looking not like a religious madman but a strong willed military genius very much the product of his time.

My own opinion? Cromwell was a military genius of the 'natural' variety, he single handedly shaped the use of cavalry in warfare for centuries to come and made it an attack force rather than merely a skirmishing force. 

His beef with the Kirk was unfortunate, fault lies on both sides but, perhaps more on his.

He was an able general but a rather narrow minded and 'always right' politician.

He was a loving and tender father and husband.

His activities in Ireland have been blown totally out of proportion by papist propagandists. The so-called 'massacre at Drogheda' was nothing like.


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## Contra_Mundum (Jul 6, 2004)

D'Aubigne wrote a short history of Cromwell. Sprinkle Publisher still sells it, I think. I've looked at it but haven't read it. It may possibly be a bit haggiographic (saintly elevating), but D'Aubigne was a superb historian.


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## turmeric (Jul 6, 2004)

Where do I buy Fraser's biography? I checked it out of the library but couldn't finish it in time. It's excellent from what I can tell.


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## cupotea (Jul 6, 2004)

I believe it is still in print. 

Borders or Barnes and Noble should have it.


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