# What sort of Arminian was I?



## Jon 316 (Mar 27, 2009)

This is perhaps not the best way to phrase the question which I am getting at, but here goes. 

As I look back on my Arminian days I think I always had Calvinistic tendencies. In otherwords I dont think I was a full blown arminian for example

1) I did not believe that someone could choose to believe at any point they desired i.e a man could not just wake up one day and decide to be a Christian. 
2) A person could only repent and believe _in response_ to the conviction and drawing of the Holy Spirit.
3) In a sense I believed that salvation was a response to the Holy Spirit and not a choice as such. 
4) For this reason I did not like the use of 'sinners prayers'.
5) What made me more arminian than Calvinist was the fact that I believed that everyone at one point in their life would be drawn by the Holy Spirit and given a chance to respond or reject the convicting drawing work of God. 

So... was this traditional arminianism?


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## toddpedlar (Mar 27, 2009)

That's pretty standard Arminianism, at least of the Wesleyan variety. To dispute the notion of prevenient grace (the grace you speak of which is in Wesleyan circles universally given, so all are on the same footing) puts you in the Pelagian camp, not the Arminian. (although evangelistic Arminians tend to like sinner's prayers)


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## wturri78 (Mar 27, 2009)

I'd say you were an Arminian who was unconditionally predestined to be irresistably drawn into Calvinism, from which you can never fall away! 

I know that wasn't really helpful...


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## Scott1 (Mar 27, 2009)

In our fallen, self-centered tendencies, we imagine something less than God being 100% the cause of,

election, inner calling, regeneration, justification, adoption and saving faith.

Scripture teaches that we are totally, completely dependent on God to give us mercy in order to save us, and there is absolutely no precondition or qualification of that.

As I understand it, what follows is a cooperative relationship for sanctification, still dependent on God's grace, but man's will is now truly free to obey from a right heart.


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## Quickened (Mar 27, 2009)




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## Jimmy the Greek (Mar 27, 2009)

A Reformed and Calvinist distinctive is that regeneration is the _cause_ of saving faith -- not the reverse. An Arminian distinctive is that God (the Spirit) regenerates in response to one's faith. To me this is a touchstone which determines whether one is Arminian at the core or a Calvinist.


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## Rangerus (Mar 27, 2009)

I was raised on the "Billy Graham" variety of Armenianism as were most Southern Baptists in the 60's. We were taught all the basics of Armenianism with the exception of the doctrine of eternal security. Though understandably, the word Armenianism was never uttered. 

It wasn't until I started reading Charles Spurgeon, Calvinism and the Doctrines of Grace did I start to wonder "what is this?" I remember, and not too terribly long ago either, once in my quiet time the illumination from the proverbial light bulb as I grasped the realization of "total depravity" and the irresistibility of God's sovereign grace. It was like as they say a paradigm shift. Obviously the Doctrines of Grace are at work in spite of others teachings, beliefs, or understanding.


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## Skyler (Mar 27, 2009)

Rangerus said:


> I was raised on the "Billy Graham" variety of Armenianism as were most Southern Baptists in the 60's. We were taught all the basics of Armenianism with the exception of the doctrine of eternal security. Though understandably, the word Armenianism was never uttered.



Armenian = inhabitant of Armenia
Arminian = follower(directly or indirectly) of Arminius


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## Bern (Mar 31, 2009)

lol Skyler, I was thinking that 

So how do you label/classify a person who believes as follows:

1)That man cannot come to repentance unless the Spirirt draws him.
2)That man has free will to choose, but will always choose sin because that is what he desires. It is possible to resist the prompting of the Holy Spirit.
3)A man believes that regeneration happens according to God's foreknowledge... so it is a combination of God already knowing how a man will respond to the Holy Spirit, and at the same time believing that man cannot come to God unless he is given the ability. Because God is outside of time and all knowing, this is not a contradiction.

This is a strange free will, but no free will situation... how can one describe this belief? Arminian?


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## Jimmy the Greek (Mar 31, 2009)

Bern said:


> lol Skyler, I was thinking that
> 
> So how do you label/classify a person who believes as follows:
> 
> ...



Confused.


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## Bern (Apr 1, 2009)

lol That was the answer I expected  But I think there are a lot of people who wrestle with this... they don't entirely agree with the arminian perspective, but they can't seem to accept Calvinism either. I think many people want to believe in election, but they struggle with it because the natural man feels that it is unfair.


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## WaywardNowHome (Apr 1, 2009)

> 3)A man believes that regeneration happens according to God's foreknowledge... so it is a combination of God already knowing how a man will respond to the Holy Spirit, and at the same time believing that man cannot come to God unless he is given the ability. Because God is outside of time and all knowing, this is not a contradiction.


I would say that point #3 is not really a contradiction but a logical fallacy because there is circular dependency. I don't buy using "Because God is outside of time and all knowing..." as a way to explain this logical inconsistency away. There are times when we cannot fully comprehend something about God (the nature of the Trinity, for example), but when the Bible is so clear about soteriology, this kind of conclusion-explanation is inadequate, at least for me.


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## TsonMariytho (Apr 1, 2009)

Jon 316 said:


> 5) What made me more arminian than Calvinist was the fact that I believed that everyone at one point in their life would be drawn by the Holy Spirit and given a chance to respond or reject the convicting drawing work of God.



Maybe somebody else can speak authoritatively on this point, but I don't think the above is classical Arminianism. It's more of one of those things that the humanistic modern mind just finds inconceivable not to have -- in the same way modern theologians reject Hell in favor of annihilationism or something, basically for emotional/philosophical reasons.

I think that classical Arminians, to their credit, recognize the exclusivity of the gospel, driving the need for missions and preaching of the Word.

-----Added 4/1/2009 at 11:41:36 EST-----



TsonMariytho said:


> humanistic modern mind



Hmmm, I'd better clarify I didn't mean this personally about you, John. I do have a not-so-classical Arminian older brother in the Lord who believes the above and definitely isn't a humanist philosopher, so my generalization doesn't always hold. :^)


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## Knoxienne (Apr 1, 2009)

I believed in salvation through faith, but believed faith came before regeneration and was so tortured as I wondered how much faith was enough for me to get saved? And how did I know when it was enough? Was it a feeling - throat, stomach, itchy foot through my shoe, etc.? (exaggerating but you get the point) And once I sinned, did I have to wait for this "faith thing" to come back? What if I died before it did? 

I was a dispie and wished so badly I could be Jewish so I could be one of the "Chosen People" instead of a second class citizen of the Kingdom. 

I got scared several times when I came home from school as a kid and no one was home - thought the rapture had come and I'd been left behind because I was such a rotten pre-teen. 

Thank the Lord for his salvation. That's all I can say.


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## Jimmy the Greek (Apr 1, 2009)

In the context of soteriology and the 5 points, I tend to view Calvinism and Arminianism as each internally consistent. Anything in between is an inconsistent and unstable position. When pushed for consistency one will end up in one place or the other. 

Of course there are plenty who are apparently content to remain inconsistent and chalk any difficulties up to the mystery of God. They shrug their shoulders and essentially say, "that's just what I believe, my mind is made up," which I see as simply theological laziness.


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## DonP (Apr 1, 2009)

I was an extremely contradictory Arminian. I was raised on John MAc Authur, before he held to the DoG but it was pretty solid for Arminian evang

So I always believed in Preservation but didn't know perseverance

I soon began to disliked the idea of the CCC blue book as a 2nd blessing and felt that the 4 laws did nothing, so I began to start with the blue Holy Spirit book, ie Lordship Salvation versus Dallas Theological Seminary's Carnal Christian a la Ryrie Balancing the Christian Life and just asking Christ into your life but He is not Lord. 

I thot for sure we all got to make a choice to be saved or not and that was it. 

I was a classical apologist and kept trying to get better and haranguing people to make a logical decision to believe the facts of Christ and there act of believing would get them born again. 

I would say the Spirit opens our eyes but I never thought of this as having to happen first as a result of God deciding to do it. Can't recall how exactly I reconciled that.
Also God must have prevenient grace for all to be able to believe
And Christ certainly died for all people and saved no one. again made it possible all you have to do is accept it. But that is 100% up to you. 

So when I prayed to God I would ask Him to help the want to believe. 
Kinda stupid now when I look back on it.

How could God make them want to if He could just make them believe?? If that would interfere with free will ??? Always had trouble praying to God for the conversion of others I knew He couldn't do it. His hands were tied and He was sad they wouldn't believe. 

The fall made me a sinner with sin nature but I could still do the good of repenting and believing. So partial depravity. 
Repenting was asking for forgiveness not really turning from sin to obedience. Thank you Thomas Watson for The Doctrine of Repentance. And John Colquhoun

When I first read a book to help my friends who thought they could lose their salvation, it was Edwards, Bonar, Spurgeon and Jay Green on Man's Will God's Will and Free Will, I had a Luther Tower like experience and cried as I realized I could be going to hell if god didn't save me. 
It was not in my power or control to decide and I never would have, 
Then amazement at why He would have chosen a selfish unlikeable person like me. 
Then I tried to get J Mac Arthur to understand Election and Irresistible grace but no way! I thot everyone was like me, just never heard it and as soon as they did they would gladly receive it as I did, by His grace. OOPS hard lessons on that to come. 

Wow, !! I am not sure if I was converted before that. But maybe when I understood Lordship Salvation. Certainly not, as far as man can tell, when I asked Jesus to forgive my sins as a child. I lived in sin after that for years till at 19 He convicted me so much with guilt I had to seek Him until He confirmed to me He was real and I needed to give up the world and sin and seeking my pleasure and to be liked. I left and never looked back


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