# Romans 5! Please help me out! Who are the "all" or "many"



## Matthew1344 (Jan 7, 2014)

I am a Calvinist. And I believe God is sovereign over all things all the time in total control.

i am right now reading "The Death of Death in the Death of Christ: John Owen". Because of this I have really been trying to unpack more the doctrine of definite atonement. My desire it to exegetically have a defense for passages in scripture that Arminians try to use to prove that Christ's died for all individual men and paid the penalty for ever individual sinners sin.

Does "many" in v.15 mean "every individual" or is it "all types of people" "or does it mean "elect", as in the elect used to be dead because of adams fall?

Does "all" in v.18 mean "all kinds of men" or "elect"?

Does "many" in v.19 mean "all kinds of men" or elect"?

Please tell me what you think about the way I am interpreting these verses.

Romans 5:15-19

But the free gift is not like the trespass.
Ok. So there is something different about the trespass of Adam and the free gift from Christ. It is much more powerful, that is the difference.

For if many died 
Is the "many" here supposed to be "every individual on the earth" or "many kinds of men"? I am going to say "Many kinds of men" 

through one man's trespass, 
Adams sin

much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
Much more power is in the grace of God than there is death found in Adam's trespass. 

abounded for many.
exists for the "many nations, types of people"

And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. 
Same as before. Adam's trespass brought death, but Christ's righteousness brought much more life.

For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation,
Adam' trespass brought death.

but the free gift
Free gift is salvation

following many trespasses 
Our sins.

brought justification.
God's salvation through the work of the cross, purchased justification before God.

For if, because of one man's trespass,
Adams trespass.

death reigned through that one man, 
Sin spread and made man dead to the things of God.

much more 
Christ's work is much more powerful than the death Adam brought. So, if Adam's death brought -10 Christ's act brought +20.

will those who receive
Elect.

the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
Everything Christ purchased and secured on the cross for his elect will reign in our lives through faith in Christ, which even our faith was purchased and given to us by God.

Therefore, 
Because of Christ's work being more powerful than the trespass of Adam.

as one trespass led to condemnation 
Adam's trespass led to death 

for all men,
all kinds of men?

so one act of righteousness
Christ's life, death, resurrection or is it more specifically the great exchange at the cross? 

leads to justification and life
Salvation

for all men.
All kinds of men?

For as by the one man's disobedience
Adam's trespass

the many were made sinners,
All kinds of men

so by the one man's obedience
Christ's work

the many
All kinds of people

will be made righteous.
Forgiven and Justified before God.

I know that this is a lot, but I have been wrestling what was the meaning of this particular text for about 1 1/2 weeks now, and I still am not positive.

Please help, it would be GREATLY appreciated.


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## Scott1 (Jan 7, 2014)

Calvin's Commentaries, Vol. 38: Romans: Chapter 5

Mr. Calvin's commentary will answer your questions.


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## KMK (Jan 7, 2014)

Matthew1344 said:


> much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
> Much more power is in the grace of God than there is death found in Adam's trespass.



I am not sure 'power' is the right word. What is in view is the 'effect' of the free gift, not the 'power' of the free gift. The blessed effect of the free gift is greater than the cursed effect of Adam's sin. As Haldane says, "the good that comes by Christ does more than repair the evil that came by Adam."




Matthew1344 said:


> For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation,
> Adam' trespass brought death.
> 
> but the free gift
> ...



I don't see anything wrong with the wording here, but more might be said to reflect Paul's emphasis. All mankind was made guilty with the one sin of Adam (eating of the forbidden fruit), but the justified are made righteous by the perfect and perpetual righteousness of Christ (even death on the cross). The emphasis is on the difference between being charged with one sin and being forgiven of many sins.

Over all, I think you are on the right track.


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## Matthew1344 (Jan 7, 2014)

Thank you very much you two! I am looking at the Calvin Com right now.

What you your opinions on the many used in 15,18,19? 
Is it elect, individuals, or many kinds?


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## KMK (Jan 7, 2014)

(15) Adam (one man) did not receive grace. (At least not before it was too late for mankind) But, the justified (many) do receive grace.

(18) The offense of one man was imputed to 'all men' who are under that one man's headship. The righteousness of one man is imputed to 'all men' who are under that one man's headship.

(19) One man's disobedience was charged to the 'many' who are under that one man's headship and they are therefore made sinners. One man's perfect obedience was credited to the 'many' who are under that one man's headship and they are therefore made righteous.


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## Matthew1344 (Jan 7, 2014)

Thank you very much! This is great.


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## JSauer (Jan 7, 2014)

You should check out Sinclair Ferguson's series on Romans. It's free on itunes. You could start with ch. 5


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## clark thompson (Jan 8, 2014)

The scripture were meant for the elect not those who are hell bound.


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## GloriousBoaz (Jan 9, 2014)

Matthew1344 said:


> And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin.
> Same as before. Adam's trespass brought death, but Christ's righteousness brought much more life.


 One man (adam's) ONE trangression brought about much sin and death. Whereas one man (Christ's) sacrifice brings atonement to MANY transgressions. I don't know if that is as insightful as i'm thinking but there yeah go lol.

I might have missed your meaning but remember, not many are chosen, narrow is the path that leads to life, so Christ's atonement isn't better quantitatively (your use of "powerful" 10/+20) over Adam's but qualitatively (Mr. Klein has spoken well here, there's an old adage something to the effect of it is easier to hate than forgive, i'm not saying God's justice is wrong, but His forgiveness is in a sense more awesome because He never needed to give us grace at all). I don't think you were really saying that I just thought I'd throw it in for thoroughness. I've got into an argument that inevitably lead to limited atonement with my aunt because I asked her if Christ was more concerned with quantity or quality and she said both, and of course it got heated. lol Sorry it's late wish I could be more help, I know i've struggled with this, especially to make "All" not include "every single human on earth" I'm still wrestling that out with it comes to John 3:16 and and "Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" and especially lately looking at 1 John 2:2, "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." I'm still really unsure on this one. I think Romans 5 is a lot simpler than this, maybe if you can tackle all of these sort of texts it will all come together, but it seems like you basically have the gist of it.

Another thought is that Paul uses parallels to make a point thats why he doesn't say: "All" and then use the word "many" in the same sentence but pairs "all" with "all" and then switches to "many" and "many" in verses 18 and 19. but in 18 all cannot mean all are saved so I'm pretty sure this is a Hebrew parallelism that Paul is using to be poetic and be able to form a rhythm and in order to do that he has to use 2 "all"'s then 2 "many"'s but he uses them in different senses. "All" is being used with two different meanings.


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## KMK (Jan 9, 2014)

GloriousBoaz said:


> I'm still really unsure on this one. I think Romans 5 is a lot simpler than this,



LBC Chapter 1, Paragraph 9. The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself; and therefore when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which are not many, but one), *it must be searched by other places that speak more clearly*.

Rom 5 should be used to help us understand 1 John 2:2, not the other way around.


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## Sovereign Grace (Jan 22, 2014)

When Adam died, everyone was still in his loins, and they died, too. God chose from those fallen in Adam...elect...that He gave them to His Son to redeem from amongst the accursed. Of those Christ stated, "All those Thou gavest me, I should lose NOTHING". "All" and "many" refer to them...the elect of God...the lost sheep the Shepherd will leave the fold and find, place upon His shoulders and bring and place in the fold(Luke 15). There is one sheepfold and One Shepherd.


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