# Hebrews 8:11



## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 2, 2005)

> 11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
> and each one his brother, saying, "˜Know the Lord,´
> for they shall all know me,
> from the least of them to the greatest.



What is this verse referring to?


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## just_grace (Jul 2, 2005)

*Holy Spirit...*

It's the Christian, the New and Living Way' to be born again by the Grace of God and recieving the Holy Spirit.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jul 2, 2005)

Matthew Henry: 



> (3.) He articles with them that they shall grow more and more acquainted with their God (v. 11): They shall all know me from the least to the greatest, insomuch that there shall not be so much need of one neighbour teaching another the knowledge of God. Here observe, [1.] In the want of better instruction, one neighbour should be teaching another to know the Lord, as they have ability and opportunity for it. [2.] This private instruction shall not be so necessary under the New Testament as it was under the Old. The old dispensation was shadowy, dark, ritual, and less understood; their priests preached but seldom, and but a few at a time, and the Spirit of God was more sparingly given out. But under the new dispensation there shall be such abundance of public qualified preachers of the gospel, and dispensers of ordinances statedly in the solemn assemblies, and so great a flocking to them, as doves to their windows, and such a plentiful effusion of the Spirit of God to make the ministration of the gospel effectual, that there shall be a mighty increase and spreading of Christian knowledge in persons of all sorts, of each sex, and of all ages. O that this promise might be fulfilled in our days, that the hand of God may be with his ministers, that a great number may believe and be turned to the Lord!



The close of the Scriptural canon, and its translation into vulgar tongues (see WCF, Chap. 1), the pouring out of the Holy Spirit (cf. I Tim. 3.15, I John 2.20, 27; John 16.13-14; Acts 2; I Cor. 2.10-12; Isa. 2.2-4; Isa. 59.21) and the priesthood of all believers (1 Peter 2.5), the more full revelation of the New Testament in addition to the Old (Rom. 10.4; Heb. 1.1-2; etc.); and the extension of Christ's kingdom in the earth (with gospel officers and ordinances and confessions) like the growth of the mustard seed (a la postmillennialism) in fulfillment of the Great Commission are all evidences consistent with this prophetic passage.

Westminster Larger Catechism:



> Q35: How is the covenant of grace administered under the New Testament?
> A35: Under the New Testament, when Christ the substance was exhibited, the same covenant of grace was and still is to be administered in the preaching of the word,[1] and the administration of the sacraments of Baptism [2] and the Lord's Supper;[3] *in which grace and salvation are held forth in more fulness, evidence, and efficacy, to all nations.[4]*
> 
> 1. Mark 16:15
> ...



[Edited on 7-3-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]


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## Poimen (Jul 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> 
> 
> > 11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
> ...



We cannot truly understand this new covenant unless we also distinguish between it and the Mosaic covenant. There is and has been much talk in Reformed communities concerning the continuation of covenants and their essential unity. However we should not allow that to undermine the Scriptures teaching concerning the uniqueness of the new covenant since it uses this term. This is supported in our text in several ways. First of all the law will be written on the heart, not just on the tablets of stone as given to Moses by God. This is an internalizing of the law as opposed to being written on the house and gates of the Jews in the old covenant (Deuteronomy 6:9). It is no longer the ceremonial law, a law which is outward in its administration but a law that is worked on by the heart and mind; by the whole person. We no longer need those old elements of outward religion because Christ, in the flesh and devotion and service to him, is our outward religion. Jeremiah is not here referring to regeneration as if the believers in the Mosaic era did not have the old man killed and the new man given to them but rather that the law, as fulfilled in Christ, refers us to His finished work on the cross. Thus there is more security in the new covenant because we can see (through the eyes of the gospel) that Christ has completed the law for us and we cannot be condemned for our sin. Believers in the old covenant could only wait for the promise but did not see its fulfillment. They were burdened under the curse of the law without being able to clearly see the one who took it away. 

Connected to this is also the reality that the need of God´s people to be instructed is done away with in the new covenant. The law was a tutor; a teacher to lead them to Christ. But because of His incarnation, there is now an innate or internal knowledge of God applied to us by the Holy Spirit. This is as Calvin points out the mystery of the gospel, though declared by the prophets, was kept hidden from past ages and believers but revealed to us now in Jesus Christ. The difference here is immense; it is like the difference between the shadow of a person and the actual person. Imagine seeing the shadow of someone around the corner of a building and carrying on a conversation with it as if the person was right in front of you. Old Testament Israel could only talk to the shadow of God; they not commune with Him by Jesus Christ in that intimate way that we are so privileged to experience. This is the difference between the promise of the Messiah who would come and the Messiah that has come. After all, to know the LORD is to know Christ. As Jesus himself said "œIf you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him." With the coming of Christ no one has to say to another "œKnow the Lord" but because of the blessing of God in the incarnation of Christ "œthey shall all know me." They will not need to be instructed because all things are made plain to the Church after the ascension of Christ. This is reflected in the disciple´s inability and lack of wisdom to perceive the person and work of Christ while He was with Him. But at Pentecost everything that was hidden is made clear; now the Son of Righteousness has arisen and sheds His light on Jew and Gentile. The whole world may now know who God is in a way that Israel never experienced. 

Therefore we must stress that the people of God will united like never before. This is expressed in the LORD´s words to the house of Israel and Judah, a unity which was broken by their respective kings, Jeroboam and Rehoboam, well before Jeremiah´s time. The people who now are scattered abroad the face of the earth will be returned to a blessed unity of land, people and faith. But it is too small a thing for God to only save the Jewish people but to include the Gentiles in His new covenant. Whereas the old covenant was made with the Jews and usually excluded Gentiles, the fullness of salvation, the fullness of Christ´s work is that He redeems people from every tribe, tongue and nation; you and I. The people of God are united then in a faith which transcends all human barriers and boundaries: we are all one in Christ, for He does not discriminate between the nations. Since this is true let us also work towards this unity in our faith, showing to the world our love of God as we worship and obey this God in faith together. May the law be truly written on our hearts as we are called to this mutual love; may it be a doing not just a saying.

This unity is also expressed in the equality of all of God´s people regardless of their social standing, ethnicity, power or riches. "œAll shall know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them." Though Israel had knowledge of God, there were different levels of knowledge and thus different levels of communion. If one was a priest one had the duty of sacrificing in the temple and thus being closer to God´s presence on the ark. If one was a prophet God spoke to them directly revealing His will. Or if one was a king he enjoyed the best teachers, a copy of the law and often a closer relationship to God. Instead, as the new covenant has dawned God has put the law in our hearts, and we all know God as intimately as we know the law because it is not merely external but inside of us. There is no class, amount of knowledge or relationship in the New Testament Church that puts one above another. The apostles, even with their great learning and the special power of the Holy Spirit, confessed that all may have a equal relationship with God in Christ through the Holy Spirit by faith. This does not mean that we do not need to grow in our faith or that we do not need ministers, elders and teachers (for otherwise why would the New Testament implore us to follow them and abide by their teaching) but compared to the old covenant our access to knowing God is much more uniform. For we are all prophets, priests and kings serving Him with the grace we have in Christ. No one may distinguish himself between his fellow Christians; we all share in the anointing of Christ.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 2, 2005)

Good thoughts, guys. I agree with pretty much all you have said. I'm confused on how to explain to my Baptist brethren why their interpretation of this verse as describing a change in the covenant community's makeup (i.e. exclusion of unregenerate) is a result of presuppositions, and not careful exegesis. I've pointed out most of the above, but it still doesn't seem to sink in. Thanks for the help.


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## andreas (Jul 3, 2005)

For all shall know Me, from the least to the greatest." 

God known in the full revelation which He has made of Himself in His Son. 
John 1:18. 

We are told in 1 John 5:20, "And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true". 

This knowledge of God is communicated unto all of His elect. 

"They shall be all taught of God" John 6:45: 

Taught His will and all the mysteries of godliness. Knowledge" of God cannot be imparted by external teaching alone, but is the result of the Spirit´s operations.

andreas.


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## biblelighthouse (Jul 3, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> Good thoughts, guys. I agree with pretty much all you have said. I'm confused on how to explain to my Baptist brethren why their interpretation of this verse as describing a change in the covenant community's makeup (i.e. exclusion of unregenerate) is a result of presuppositions, and not careful exegesis. I've pointed out most of the above, but it still doesn't seem to sink in. Thanks for the help.



Gabe,

Interestingly enough, this specific verse is my favorite one to use to show that Hebrews 8 and Jeremiah 31 are certainly _not_ talking about the exclusion of the regenerate from the covenant people today.

Are there teachers today? Yes. Therefore, the "not yet" part of the New Covenant is not in effect yet. In the eschatological fullness of time, in the new heavens and earth, no remaining in the covenant will be unregenerate, and there will be no teachers.

The mistake of the Baptists is that they assume that ALL aspects of the New Covenant are "already", instead of realizing important parts of the "not yet" aspects.

Every time people sit in a church service, the preacher is teaching them to "know the Lord", whether the listeners are regenerate or unregenerate. On this puritanboard, hopefully we are all regenerate. But even so, none of us has perfect personal holiness yet, and so we all urge each other to "know the Lord" better and better. Once the New Covenant comes to *complete* fulfillment, however, there will be no more teachers. . . . thus Hebrews 8:11.

Gabe, I highly recommend checking out this article regarding Jeremiah 31 (and thus Hebrews 8): http://thirdmill.org/newfiles/ric_pratt/TH.Pratt.New.Covenant.Baptism.pdf

I hope that helps.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 3, 2005)

Wonderful article. It talks about everything I've been seeing so clearly ever since I first "converted" to paedo - ironically enough, through my personal reading of Jeremiah and Hebrews.


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## Steve Owen (Jul 17, 2005)

Joseph Wrote:-


> Every time people sit in a church service, the preacher is teaching them to "know the Lord", whether the listeners are regenerate or unregenerate. On this puritanboard, hopefully we are all regenerate. But even so, none of us has perfect personal holiness yet, and so we all urge each other to "know the Lord" better and better.



I think there is a difference between knowing someone, and knowing _about _ him. For example, I might read a dozen boigraphies of, say, Bill Gates. I might know how he stared up his business, when and whom he married, the names of all his cats and dogs, so on and so forth. I would know all _about_ him. But if I then met him on the street and went up and said, "Hi, Bill! How are you doing?" He would reply, "I'm sorry, I don't think I know you."

But if I had met Mr Gates and talked with him, even if I knew hardly anything about him, the next day I could go up to him and say, "Hi, Bill!" And he would say, "Hi Martin!" Right back to me, because I know him, however slightly, and he knows me. Do you see the difference?

So it is that people can read the Bible through a dozen times, study theology to degree level, write learned books upon the subject, and still not know the Lord. They know _about_ Him, but they don't know Him. But the most ignorant fellow in the world, if he sees himself as a lost sinner, under the righteous condemnation of God, and repents and puts his trust in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation, *knows the Lord*, because the Holy Spirit has introduced him to Him.

So it is that Peter can advise new Christians, *'As newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby- if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious'* (1Peter 2:2-3 ). They know the Lord, but they don't know very much _about_ Him, so they need to learn. But at the same time, John can tell his readers, *'But the anointing you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you.'* The weakest Christian has an anointing from the Lord, he knows Jesus, and he does not need a Jehovah's witness or anybody else to point him to another Jesus.

This is the meaning of Hebrews 8:11. Everyone in the New Covenant knows the Lord. Of course they need to learn more _about_ Him, but if they don't know Him, then however much they may think they know about HIm, they are lost, and not in the New Covenant.

BTW, there is an excellent response to the article by Richard Pratt in the Jan 2005 edition of _Reformed Baptist Theological Review._

Grace & Peace,

Martin


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 17, 2005)

Martin, do you believe the administration of the New Covenant is initiated, consummated, or fulfilled, presently?


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## Steve Owen (Jul 17, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> Martin, do you believe the administration of the New Covenant is initiated, consummated, or fulfilled, presently?



That we shall know the Lord much better when He returns in glory is for certain! But that does not mean that we cannot know Him here and now; and if that is so, we do not need to be taught to know Him. We can learn more _about _Him from preachers and teachers and we certainly should do so, but to know the Lord in that fundamental sense cannot be taught by man (John 6:45 ).

Grace & Peace,

Martin


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## knight4christ8 (Jul 17, 2005)

I read through your posts pretty fast, and did not see a contextual interpretation. It is not referring to the covenantal community, but the earth as a whole. This is a reiteration of the passage Jeremiah 31:34 which speaks about the House of Israel all knowing the Lord. In Rom. we find that the Jews will be brought in after the fullness of the Gentiles is grafted in. I find deep relations between this passage and Isaiah 11:9 and Hab. 2:14. I believe that this is referring to size and depth rather than simply depth.


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## Steve Owen (Jul 18, 2005)

Gabriel,
If my last answer does not satisfy, perhaps you would rephrase your question so that I can understand it better. However, plase not that I am away on holiday for two weeks so our correspondence will be interrupted.

Gregory,

Jer 31:31ff is not quoted only in Heb 8:8ff but also in 10:15-18. Here the context is very definitely the here and now since we are bidden to enter into the NC by 'a new and living way' (v20 ) which is already open for us.

Grace & Peace,

Martin


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 18, 2005)

Has the New Covenant (1) *JUST BEGUN*, is it (2) *IN PROCESS*, or is it (3) *COMPLETELY FULFILLED*?



[Edited on 7-20-05 by pastorway]


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## Steve Owen (Jul 18, 2005)

Hello Gabriel,
First you asked me:-


> Martin, do you believe the administration of the New Covenant is initiated, consummated, or fulfilled, presently?


Then you asked, by way of elucidation:-


> Has the New Covenant (1) JUST BEGUN, is it (2) IN PROCESS, or is it (3) COMPLETELY FULFILLED?



On the second option, do you mean 'consummated' or 'in process'? They don't mean the same thing. Not in England, anyway. The reason I asked you to clarify was because 'consummated' and 'fulfilled' seemed to be somewhat similar.

However, in answer; The New Covenant was transacted in eternity past, as I told Scott on another thread, so it is hardly 'just begun'. It is fulfilled in the sense that there is no more work for Christ to do; He is sat down at the right hand of the Father. However, it is still in process in the sense that unless the Lord has come by the time you read this, there are still more of the elect to be saved.

Now that I have answered you, perhaps you would care to interract with the post I made yesterday instead of posing trick questions. It is a bit rich you complaining of me avoiding issues. That was the first post I made on this thread. I hope you will practise what you preach in future.

Grace & Peace,

Martin


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## Steve Owen (Jul 19, 2005)

Just a few more points showing that the New Covenant is firmly established in the present time, along with the promises that it contains.
Heb 8:6:-


> But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was [or 'has been'] established on better promises.



The Greek word for 'was established is 'nenomothetetai', the perfect passive of 'vomotheteomai', which means "to establish or enact on the basis of legal sanction." The New Covenant is not something that will someday be established, but it has already been established by a completed action- founded, established and enacted, along with its 'better promises'. There is nothing in the text that might lead us to believe that the full establishment of the covenant is still in the future; indeed, that would destroy the purpose of the author, whose object is to show that the prophecy of Jer 31 is now (circa AD 65 ) fulfilled in Christ.

Furthermore, there are several texts which show that the promises of Jer 31:31-34 were fulfilled in and by The Lord Jesus Christ. For example John 6:45:-


> "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me."



Note the reference to the "prophets", plural. The quotation appears to be of both Isaiah 54:13 and Jer 31:34. Plainly, the Lord Jesus regards these prophecies as already being fulfilled during His ministry. To be sure, there is a final consummation of the prophecies in the age to come, but they are also current in the here and now.

There is also 1Cor 2:6-16, where Paul clearly shows that Christians, under the New Covenant know (here and now) the things of God. 2Cor 3 also shows the great contrast between the Old and New Covenants. The OT law was written on tablets of stone; except for a small number (Isaiah 1:9 ) of OT Saints, the OC gave no power to keep it, so that Paul can describe it as a 'ministry of death'. The New Covenant is written on the renewed hearts of those who are in it, so that 'all shall know Me from the least of them to the greatest of them.'.

Finally, the Apostle John wrote:-


> But you [every one of his Christian readers] have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it........But the anointing you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.
> 1John 2:20-21, 27



Even Presbyterian commentators such as Candlish and Kistemaker, as well as Baptists like Haldane, make the connection between these verses and Heb 8:10. Obviously, John is not saying that his readers did not need any teaching at all- otherwise he would not have written his letter. What he is saying is that everyone in the New Covenant has the Holy Spirit within them, and knows the Lord (Heb 8:10-11 ).

The more I look into it, the more I am convinced that Heb 8 is the elephant in the bathroom of paedo-baptism.

Grace & Peace,

Martin


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## PuritanCovenanter (Jul 20, 2005)

Where is Gabes Knox avatar? It reminded me of how forward he is. He cracks me up. I use to be young once. I like Martin's Posts.


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