# What is the "sin unto death" - and why shouldn't we pray for it?



## Pergamum

In I John there is a "sin unto death" and we are told not to pray for it?

What is this?

If it is gross unbelief then...well, we pray for unbelievers all the time.


Is it rejection of faith, apostasy? In Hebrews it says that those who were once enlightened, if they fall away...they cannot be restored, right (away from my bible right now)....



Is this sin unto death the same as blaspheming the Holy Spirit, aka, the unpardonable sin?


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## Contra_Mundum

I think Bill's answer is very good.

I only want to add something. If you see someone sinning, then don't hesitate--pray! That sin isn't "unto death," (from what you know, anyway) because the man is still alive. Your prayer of concern could be the God ordained means not only of recovering him, but preventing God's swift destruction. You are being Moses to that man's Israel.

But suppose you see a man sin _unto death._ Is it too late? "Wait, Lord, forgive him..." Ah, but no. John says, in effect, "don't waste your breath. His moment has arrived, and he is either under the blood of Christ (and will not suffer eternally) or else he is beyond any hope."

This verse, along with Heb.9:27, speaks clearly against prayers for the dead, or any action to free people from the alleged realm of purgatory. There is no reason to pray further for this person. What's done is done. It doesn't mean he went to hell; it does mean he is no longer in any place where your prayers can do him additional good.


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## Pergamum

This side of death, is there any reason for which we should not pray for someone? 

If, like in Hebrews, some have fallen away and are unable to be recovered, do we pray for these apostates?


Also, it is clear that I John is not talking about purgatory because he says sin unto death, not after death, so this does not appear to be John's intention.


If a man is comatose in a coma and is nearing a vegatative state then, has his moment arrived and should we pray for his salvation, since he is past the point of physically responding and only seems to await death?


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## Contra_Mundum

Pergamum said:


> This side of death, is there any reason for which we should not pray for someone?


I can't think of any.



Pergamum said:


> If, like in Hebrews, some have fallen away and are unable to be recovered, do we pray for these apostates?


How do you know he's gone too far? You don't. Unless you have to choose between people to pray for, given the available time YOU have, I can't think of why you wouldn't continue to ask God for mercy for a person sliding away.




Pergamum said:


> Also, it is clear that I John is not talking about purgatory because he says sin unto death, not after death, so this does not appear to be John's intention.


Of course, as good Protestants, we know purgatory is a fiction. But there could have been hopeful people who thought there was maybe some way to pray for someone who was dead, but could still be helped--someway, somehow. John is correcting this error.

The term is *πρὸς θάνατον*. I would say Death is the terminal result of the particular sinning John is thinking of, and he's not thinking of any particular sin we can name after which (while the person is still living) which is going to be the death of him--so don't pray for him. Nonsense. And v17 offered by way of clarifying bears this out.

_So, praying for anyone who is yet alive is the proper response._




Pergamum said:


> If a man is comatose in a coma and is nearing a vegatative state then, has his moment arrived and should we pray for his salvation, since he is past the point of physically responding and only seems to await death?


Pray that he may recover enough of his faculties, that he could repent at least, if not rise up again. How do we know if he is gone for good? Until he is 6ft. under.


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## Dawie

Pergamum said:


> In I John there is a "sin unto death" and we are told not to pray for it?
> 
> What is this?
> 
> If it is gross unbelief then...well, we pray for unbelievers all the time.
> 
> 
> Is it rejection of faith, apostasy? In Hebrews it says that those who were once enlightened, if they fall away...they cannot be restored, right (away from my bible right now)....
> 
> 
> 
> Is this sin unto death the same as blaspheming the Holy Spirit, aka, the unpardonable sin?



Calvin commentary 1Jn 5:16 :

_There is a sin unto death _

I have already said that the sin to which there is no hope of pardon left, is thus called. But it may be asked, what this is; for it must be very atrocious, when God thus so severely punishes it. It may be gathered from the context, that it is not, as they say, a partial fall, or a transgression of a single commandment, but apostasy, by which men wholly alienate themselves from God. For the Apostle afterwards adds, that the children of God do not sin, that is, that they do not forsake God, and wholly surrender themselves to Satan, to be his slaves. Such a defection, it is no wonder that it is mortal; for God never thus deprives his own people of the grace of the Spirit; but they ever retain some spark of true religion. They must then be reprobate and given up to destruction, who thus fall away so as to have no fear of God. 
Were any one to ask, whether the door of salvation is closed against their repentance; the answer is obvious, that as they are given up to a reprobate mind, and are destitute of the Holy Spirit, they cannot do anything else, than with obstinate minds, become worse and worse, and add sins to sins. Moreover, as the sin and blasphemy against the Spirit ever brings with it a defection of this kind, there is no doubt but that it is here pointed out. 
But it may be asked again, by what evidences can we know that a man’s fall is fatal; for except the knowledge of this was certain, in vain would the Apostle have made this exception, that they were not to pray for a sin of this kind. It is then right to determine sometimes, whether the fallen is without hope, or whether there is still a place for a remedy. This, indeed, is what I allow, and what is evident beyond dispute from this passage; but as this very seldom happens, and as God sets before us the infinite riches of his grace, and bids us to be merciful according to his own example, we ought not rashly to conclude that any one has brought on himself the judgment of eternal death; on the contrary, love should dispose us to hope well. But if the impiety of some appear to us not otherwise than hopeless, as though the Lord pointed it out by the finger, we ought not to contend with the just judgment of God, or seek to be more merciful than he is.


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## Peairtach

This is a very difficult area when e.g. we consider how far Solomon fell, who was undoubtedly a believer, and yet we also do not read of his spiritual restoration before death.

It is our justification that takes us into heaven - _if we're justified_ - not our sanctification or what sin(s) we're engaged in at death, if any, or the remains of sin within us at death.

Without prophetic ability can we be sure that someone has committed the unforgiveable sin? Would we think from e.g. the account of Solomon's life that he had done such?

Obviously there seems to a disagreement between Bruce and John (Calvin) here re what the sin unto death is.


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## Contra_Mundum

I seldom want to disagree with JC, believe me.

But he may feel fine making such a determination; whereas I am not comfortable at all trying to discover a heart.

Unless I have to choose how best to use my time--praying for person A who seems more utterly reprobate, or person B who seems less so--why would we ever determine a man is hopeless--until he actually is beyond all question (dead)?

Let every man be convinced in his own mind, Rom.14:5. And God will use our prayers or such convicted refusal of prayers for his own glory.

1Sa 12:23 Moreover as for me, God forbid that I should sin against the LORD in ceasing to pray for you: but I will teach you the good and the right way:


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## Pergamum

Bruce;

What is the majority Reformed opinion on this text? Are you in the majority or minority?


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## Contra_Mundum

I don't know if it is a "Reformed" issue. Just an interpretive one.

What's a "sin not unto [or productive of] death," what seems to be a cause-effect relation in a simple sense? The simplest explanation _to me_ (maybe not for someone else) is that the connection was observable, or was temporally proximate, therefore making the connection a logical inference.

It seems to me that John is connecting our prayers for fellow sinners with God's staying hand of retribution, so that we should conclude (albeit in a general sense) that when we pray and a sinner is not taken away, we have a right to conclude that our prayers were effectual, in some sense, unto life and forgiveness.

But this general rule can't apply in every situation. It can't apply once a person has died. That is, your prayers have zero effect on the outcome at that point. You might as well just thank God "Thy will be done," and press forward. If he has life eternal, it's fixed and unchangeable. If it's hell, that too is no more uncertain.

All unrighteousness is sin, John says. And the wages of sin (any sin) is death [an unstated premise]. However, not every sin brings on this death in an immediate, cognizable way. So, he closes with encouragement to pray, when sin has not brought death.


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## Peairtach

I may be inclining towards Bruce's rather than Calvin's view, as John the Apostle puts no qualifier on the word "death" and I suppose therefore he is talking about death in its ordinary sense i.e. physical death. Also the Apostle gives his readers no clues as to how to know that someone is so spiritually dead in this life, that there is no hope for them.

We have references to chastisements leading to physical death in the New Covenant, e.g. Ananias and Sapphira, I Corinthians 11:29-30

For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep

I'll start a new thread on the above verses in the NT epistles exegetical section.


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## Dawie

This strange interpretation makes the whole verse meaningless.

The sin unto death is the unpardonable sin, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. It is A sin, not "sins unto death".

Obviously there must be a good indication that someone has done this - the Bible wouldn't just leave us in the dark, that's why verses like those in Hebrews and elsewhere describe this. It's full and final apostasy by a person.

If someone who used to believe in Jesus now denies that faith and Christ, we don't have to pray for that person - that's the instruction of this verse - for it would be a waste of time. All we have to go by is the external obviously, but that's enough.

The verse also doesn't forbid praying for someone, it just says we're not under any obligation to do so ("...I do not say that he shall pray for it.")

It's also a deterrent from apostasy. Christ doesn't pray for an apostate, and neither do we. There's no sacrifice left for him.

We better start waking up as to the nature of this sin because Scripture says in 2Th that there's going to be a LOT of this happening before the appearance of the antichrist. 

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 

All this sin is, like I said, is full apostasy. That is to commit Deicide in your heart, after the Holy Spirit had there testified of the truth. 

We see this happenning all around today - a people being prepared for the antichrist - murderers killing Christ all over the place.


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## Contra_Mundum

Actually, if it was a _specific _sin, then it would likely have been accompanied by the definite article. But, you are entitled to your opinion in the matter. It should be apparent, however, that you are drawing from other parts of Scripture to "label" John's rather imprecise language.

I'm curious, since you've said that we are going to see a lot of THIS SIN, and according to your interpretation we have no obligation to pray for for such people--Are we to expect much prayer for persecutors, snitches, and hypocrites in the future? 

Getting back to the text, even if there was a definite article, since there is no specific referent, the _definite term _(could still refer somewhat vaguely to a class of sin. Furthermore, "sin" singular refers both to one act, and to rebellion against God generally. Some translations even render vv16-17 in exactly that way.

As it is, there is no article, so it is "a" sin (or simply "sin") leading to death, without specifying *what* (single) or *which* (of a class) sin John has in mind.

And with all due respect, what I've offered isn't a "meaningless" interpretation. You might not agree, and believe you have the better one. But that's not an analysis of my presentation that exposes its "inanity".

If you look at the context, John issues a very potent promise, vv14-15,


> And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask *any thing* according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, *whatsoever we ask*, we *know that we have the petitions* that we desired of him.


John is writing to regular believers, some Christians for a long time, others mere children. I can imagine a young believer, especially, perhaps drawing the wrong conclusion to John's statements here, can't you?"Anything? Whatever I ask? My son died, and he wasn't a Christian _then,_ but he's probalby a lot clearer on the state of his soul right about now..."​John gives us, following v16, a very serious instance for prayer--praying to deliver someone from sin (general term)--which doesn't bring on death. And he says don't pray for someone (it's not any sort of option he gives) who has sinned himself to death.

Which makes perfect sense, given the mistake someone might make based on the earlier blanket statements. "Sure Joe might be dead, but God will certainly hear and seriously bring my prayer to bear on Joe's situation, because God's promise is to give us the GOOD things we ask for."

No, Joe is past the point where prayer will change anything in his regard. We KNOW that, because he's dead.

Bob seems to be abandoning the faith. He has really taken up with evil practice. He has been excommunicated. Bob's Mom is a Christian. Should we be telling her to quit praying for her son? After all, it's pretty obvious, right? he can't come back to Christ. That is a wrong assumption by my interpretation of this text. Bob's not dead yet, so let's keep praying for his redemption.

If this is a meaningless interpretation, I have to say it's pretty encouraging for being nonsense.


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## Dawie

Contra_Mundum said:


> And with all due respect, what I've offered isn't a "meaningless" interpretation.



Interpreting "sin unto death" to merely mean "sin unto physical death", makes 1Jn 5:16 meaningless. 

With that interpretation you absolutely destroy the distinction John makes between “not unto death: pray” and “unto death: don't pray”. 

The result:

*What is is this sin?*



Contra_Mundum said:


> ... he's not thinking of any particular sin we can name...



*Who mustn't we pray for?*



Contra_Mundum said:


> _So, praying for anyone who is yet alive is the proper response._



*Why aren't we to pray for them?*



Contra_Mundum said:


> _So, praying for anyone who is yet alive is the proper response._



Something is wrong. The only option can be that "sin unto death" means "sin unto spiritual death", i.e. this sin:

Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 
Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. 

This way the verse has meaning and we know what the sin is, who these people are, and why not to pray for them (it can't be forgiven).

One doesn't have to "discover the heart" to identify an apostate. If that were so, the verse would also be meaningless. Wasn't Julian called "the Apostate" by the church? There are people like that today, e.g. Richard Dawkins. Do you say we should pray for him? 

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


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## Contra_Mundum

> Interpreting "sin unto death" to merely mean "sin unto physical death", makes 1Jn 5:16 meaningless.


Only if you think I wrote gibberish.


> With that interpretation you absolutely destroy the distinction John makes between “not unto death: pray” and “unto death: don't pray”.


This, only your second sentence, is just an assertion, doesn't interact with any of my presentation, and makes me wonder if you actually read what I wrote, instead of just dismissing my comment without care, merely for disagreeing with your, _*obviously correct*_ (!) position.

So, further interaction seems pointless.

Have a nice day.


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## YXU

Richard Tallach said:


> I may be inclining towards Bruce's rather than Calvin's view, as John the Apostle puts no qualifier on the word "death" and I suppose therefore he is talking about death in its ordinary sense i.e. physical death. Also the Apostle gives his readers no clues as to how to know that someone is so spiritually dead in this life, that there is no hope for them.
> 
> We have references to chastisements leading to physical death in the New Covenant, e.g. Ananias and Sapphira, I Corinthians 11:29-30
> 
> For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep
> 
> I'll start a new thread on the above verses in the NT epistles exegetical section.



This interpretation sounds very reasonable. In China, long time ago, I heard about an interpretation that a sin to death here means a severe crime that is worthy of death punishment like murder.


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## MW

1 John 3:14 seems to me to shed the most light on "sin unto death."


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## Herald

armourbearer said:


> 1 John 3:14 seems to me to shed the most light on "sin unto death."



Matthew, so the sin unto death is unbelief? Not passing from death to life (from darkness to light; unbelief to belief) is the sin unto death? Do you see any tie in with 1 Corinthians 11:30?


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## MW

Bill, no there is no tie with 1 Corithians 11.

John has already stated that sin unto death is a professed brother hating the brethren after the manner of Cain. Taken together with 2:19 and 4:3 we see the moral and theological dimensions of this social sin.


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## Herald

armourbearer said:


> Bill, no there is no tie with 1 Corithians 11.
> 
> John has already stated that sin unto death is a professed brother hating the brethren after the manner of Cain. Taken together with 2:19 and 4:3 we see the moral and theological dimensions of this social sin.



Matthew,

Let me think along with you regarding the Johannian motif viz. the sin leading unto death. 1 John 5:16 starts off with John referring to a brother who commits a sin not leading to death. He then contrasts the sin not leading to death with the sin leading to death. We have to assume that there is a change between the brother and then an unregenerate person; for the sin leading to death is not just physical death but spiritual. This fits the motif of 2:19 and 4:3. As if to put the exclamation point on this thought John writes in 5:17 that all unrighteousness is sin. This is connected to the sin leading to death in 5:16. 

If we unpack 5:16 within the context of the entire epistle, we see those who went out (2:19), those that do not confess Christ (4:3), and those who commit the sin leading unto death (5:16) as indicative of rank unbelief. Thus, the sin leading unto death is really unbelief, in its basic form.


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## MW

Herald said:


> Thus, the sin leading unto death is really unbelief, in its basic form.



Unbelief which has a specific historical development in the life of a "brother," and which can be discerned by its manifestation -- yes. But not simply unbelief, because we are to pray for unbelievers, 1 Timothy 2:1.


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## Herald

armourbearer said:


> Herald said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thus, the sin leading unto death is really unbelief, in its basic form.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unbelief which has a specific historical development in the life of a "brother," and which can be discerned by its manifestation -- yes. But not simply unbelief, because we are to pray for unbelievers, 1 Timothy 2:1.
Click to expand...


Matthew, I follow you. The unbelief of a counterfeit brother is different than someone who never claimed to believe. I am reminded of the passage in Hebrews:



> Hebrews 6:4-6 4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.


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## TeachingTulip

armourbearer said:


> Bill, no there is no tie with 1 Corithians 11.
> 
> John has already stated that sin unto death is a professed brother hating the brethren after the manner of Cain. Taken together with 2:19 and 4:3 we see the moral and theological dimensions of this social sin.



We should not pray for anyone who actively and intentionally opposes, denies, or teaches against the Christian proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ; the truths of the Holy Scriptures, or the historical church confessions of faith. 

For such persons consciously defy and blaspheme the very Holy Spirit who provides the belief and knowledge of the gospel witness in the true brethren; the Person of the God Head who inspired the Holy Scriptures, and the Guide who motivates all believers to stand for the excellencies of Christ's body, the church . . . and by so doing these things, they not only bear false witness against the sons of God, but also insult the Holy Spirit of grace as being wicked and wrong, rather than right and good; revealing themselves to possess the spirit of anti-Christ.

Such is the fruit of ungodly reprobates, who are ordained to not receive the forgiveness of God.


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## akennethjr

I believe that the Holy Scriptures speak of physical death to keep someone from "the great transgression" or full and final apostasy.

The scriptures speak of ones dying an early death that had sinned grievously. 

There were those that were "given over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit might be saved in the day of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

The last quote is a paraphrase.


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## Pergamum

TeachingTulip said:


> armourbearer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bill, no there is no tie with 1 Corithians 11.
> 
> John has already stated that sin unto death is a professed brother hating the brethren after the manner of Cain. Taken together with 2:19 and 4:3 we see the moral and theological dimensions of this social sin.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We should not pray for anyone who actively and intentionally opposes, denies, or teaches against the Christian proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ; the truths of the Holy Scriptures, or the historical church confessions of faith.
> 
> For such persons consciously defy and blaspheme the very Holy Spirit who provides the belief and knowledge of the gospel witness in the true brethren; the Person of the God Head who inspired the Holy Scriptures, and the Guide who motivates all believers to stand for the excellencies of Christ's body, the church . . . and by so doing these things, they not only bear false witness against the sons of God, but also insult the Holy Spirit of grace as being wicked and wrong, rather than right and good; revealing themselves to possess the spirit of anti-Christ.
> 
> Such is the fruit of ungodly reprobates, who are ordained to not receive the forgiveness of God.
Click to expand...


So, prayers for the Apostle Paul would have been against Scripture?


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## Peairtach

*Quote from Ronda*
_the Person of the God Head_

That should be "Godhead" which means "Godhood" which means "Godness" or "Divine Nature". In a similar way _maidenhead _means _maidenhood._


*Quote from akennethjr*
_There were those that were "given over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit might be saved in the day of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ._

The destruction of _the flesh _there must mean the destruction of _the sinful nature_ that was behind the person's sin, rather than the destruction of the body in death. In this case (I Cor.5) a man who was living in incest with his father's wife. This is in fact what happened, i.e. the destruction of the sinful nature which led to this sin, and we read of his restoration in II Corinthians.

People who are disciplined by being suspended from communicant membership, and partially shunned as a brother, and thus put into Satan's realm, don't automatically die physically, and indeed such actions properly done may well lead to their repentance and restoration to fellowship because if properly done they have the power of Heaven behind them (e.g. Matthew 18:18).


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## akennethjr

I do not take the position that the sin nature is destroyed in this life.


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## Peairtach

No. Neither do I. There will always be the remains of the flesh (sinful nature) in believers.

But we know from I and II Corinthians that the incestuous person wasn't destroyed physically (killed, died) by being put into Satan's kingdom for a while by removal from the Lord's Table and partial shunning, and that he was restored to fellowship.

The effect of being given over to Satan must then have been to lead to repentance from his incestuous behaviour _and the mortifying (putting to death) of this particular evil in his heart and life. _


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## Jerusalem Blade

Perg,

About one who is comatose: A Christian doctor I know related a story of his witnessing to a patient near death with cancer, and comatose. Nonetheless, he talked to the nonresponsive man as though he could hear, and told him about the Lord Jesus, how He saves, and how to approach Him by faith. He then left. A couple of days later the sick man's wife, a nurse, was sitting by his bed when he became alert, and told his wife that he'd heard everything Dr. Woodley had said, and he gave his heart to Christ as a result. A couple of days later he died.

Ever since hearing this story it has changed my views about apparent comas. My mother-in-law here in Cyprus is in the final stage of Alzheimer's, and often completely unresponsive (though her two daughters - twins, one my wife - say she is definitely alert underneath her silent exterior). When her fervently Greek Orthodox husband (with no love for Protestants) is away, I will sing hymns to her, read from the Scripture, and pray with her, assuming she can hear, and the Spirit of the Lord will touch and refresh her heart. She may not be able to think well, but she can be aware of His presence, and somehow know the words that sing His praises.

A couple of years ago, when the disease hadn't progressed so far, her mind was child-like and uncritical, and when my wife would regularly tell her about Jesus, and read the Scripture and pray with her, she was often deeply moved. My wife, no sentimentalist, believes the Lord savingly moved upon her heart and made her His. I believe with her. There was a blessing from God in this devastating illness.


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## akennethjr

Are you saying that when in 1 Cor 11 that when it states that people took of the Lord's supper unworthily that some had poor health and some slept? I believe that sleeping in this context does not mean a cleansing of the sin nature but an early death. So how do you justify your position that it is a cleansing of the sin nature? Of course it was in the article of death that he was fully cleansed of the sin nature.


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## Peairtach

akennethjr said:


> Are you saying that when in 1 Cor 11 that when it states that people took of the Lord's supper unworthily that some had poor health and some slept? I believe that sleeping in this context does not mean a cleansing of the sin nature but an early death. So how do you justify your position that it is a cleansing of the sin nature? Of course it was in the article of death that he was fully cleansed of the sin nature.



There is no full "cleansing of the sin nature" in this life. As regards those who became unwell and died after abusing the Lord's Supper, I do not know if those who survived learned not to abuse the Lord's Supper, or those who died repented of that particular sin before they died.

The incestuous person in I and II Corinthians is a different case to those who were struck down by illness and/or died because of their sin of abusing the Lord's Table. God used church sanctions, putting him into Satan's realm by temporary excommunication, to bring him to repentance for the sin he was committing.

See I Corinthians 5 and II Corinthians 2:1-11.


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## Contra_Mundum

I would like to say, I preached 1Jn.5:14-17 on Sunday.

After preaching through the book (almost all the way now) I say that my position changed.

I think that John is _emphasizing_ that we SHOULD pray for our brothers, when we see them sinning. In the context, there can be a natural question regarding those who have left the faith; they were brothers, but now no more, and probably under discipline.

But more (we don't just give up praying for those under even the most extreme discipline), these have taken up the cause of anti-Christ (another/alternate-Christ), and seek to draw other members after them in their apostasy. They have gone _*back*_ to, or are nearly confirmed in, "death" (1Jn.3:14).

This, is now seems to me, is the most natural understanding of this passage. Although, as I argued above, it is a truth that natural death is a point beyond which prayers for anyone's improvement is either superfluous or worthless.

So, this is indeed a "warning verse," but in a way secondary to the main point--which (like the rest of the book) is primarily a positive encouragement to professing Christians.


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## Houston E.

Contra_Mundum said:


> I would like to say, I preached 1Jn.5:14-17 on Sunday.
> 
> After preaching through the book (almost all the way now) I say that my position changed.
> 
> I think that John is _emphasizing_ that we SHOULD pray for our brothers, when we see them sinning. In the context, there can be a natural question regarding those who have left the faith; they were brothers, but now no more, and probably under discipline.
> 
> But more (we don't just give up praying for those under even the most extreme discipline), these have taken up the cause of anti-Christ (another/alternate-Christ), and seek to draw other members after them in their apostasy. They have gone _*back*_ to, or are nearly confirmed in, "death" (1Jn.3:14).
> 
> This, is now seems to me, is the most natural understanding of this passage. Although, as I argued above, it is a truth that natural death is a point beyond which prayers for anyone's improvement is either superfluous or worthless.
> 
> So, this is indeed a "warning verse," but in a way secondary to the main point--which (like the rest of the book) is primarily a positive encouragement to professing Christians.



Hi Bruce,

Some friends and I were discussing this passage a few weeks ago. Their view really concerned me as they stated that there have been times when the Spirit had led them not to pray for someone. I questioned this thinking as in my mind it seems they are determining who is elect and who is not. I then read your initial post at that time and was in agreement. Am I reading you correctly in saying that you now see it as a warning passage, but not to the extent of where we have no need to pray for someone unless they have died?


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## Contra_Mundum

Trey,
A part of me really does like the simplicity of the "natural-death" argument. I mentioned it in my sermon, as one alternative with a plausible defense.

However, given the "life-death" contrast present not only in the immediate context but through the whole letter, I had to forgo it because the "spiritual death" would indeed be a _more_ plausible question raised, in my opinion. Dying-in-fact (bodily) just doesn't seem to come up, other than by extension. So, by extension I think that the natural-death point is proved, but it is not John's patent purpose to speak to it.

In regard to those persons who think HolyGhost "led them" not to pray for someone: I have a problem with people bypassing their own God-given minds and reasoning in order to sanctify a decision the came to. Their decision is either informed by Scripture-trained thinking, and therefore in conformity to the mind of Christ and his Spirit, or it isn't. And they will have to wait until judgment Day for confirmation of that.

Personally, I wouldn't want to have to justify to Christ my (previous) ascription of my sinful idea to a "prompting" from the Spirit.

In fact, THAT (!) comes awfully close to the sin of blaspheming the Spirit. Talk about irony.




So, much better to 1) pray for as many brothers (sinners) as come to mind; 2) pray for as many brothers who have even sinned so far as being under discipline; and 3) pray for those who were once brothers and are slipping now into a false religion. We were just recently informed on this board about a former brother (and wife) who were on the PB, who have joined the RCs. I think they need our unfailing prayers because they are now members in a works-righteousness organization.

Just read Gal.1 for how dangerous Paul thinks that situation is.

Clearly, Paul prays for those who are "abandoning" the gospel. And he just as clearly has a curse for those who are taking them there.

I think we are encouraged to pray generally for all the lost, that God would be gracious to them, and give them a knowledge of the truth. He still saves false teachers too, snatching them out of eternal fire like brands from the burning. But, I get the sense from both Paul and John, Peter and Jude, etc. that in our discernment *when we know a person who is seeking to draw-off our other brethren from the gospel themselves once professed, and now despise, we actually need to pray that God will intervene to save the ones who are not yet engulfed.*

So we leave the results to God--whether to reach deeper into the flames to pull out the one-pulling-in others; or if he will simply bring down the axe on the tentacles that are dragging our still-brothers after the damned. *Our focus-for-well-being is on those who are brothers, now, and in danger; not those who have (more than likely) sinned unto death.* So, the answer to when or how we pray regarding those who are plucking the "stragglers" (as did the Amalekites) is, John says: "focus on the brothers being plucked." Perhaps, this is one of the few times to pray the Imprecatory Psalms? We still like to see such persons saved, but...

See, the point of these verses is to encourage us that praying for the brother-in-sin is one of those prayers that is designed to BE an encouragement to prayer, because it is VERY likely to be answered in grace. In ch3, we are encouraged to pray BECAUSE we are assured by God of his love. in ch5, we are encouraged to pray (vv14-15) as a means of assurance (in order TO BE assured). And that general call to prayer-as-assurance is followed then by a specific prayer that we have so much expectation will be a means of assurance, as God answers in grace (with due respect for God's sovereignty). The more we pray this prayer for our brothers, the more we will see that prayer answered. It is BOUND to be an assuring factor.

So, the passage does "warn" us further that there is a serious danger of apostasy (which is spelled out earlier and clearer in ch2): danger of us falling in, danger of staying in and becoming a recruiter, danger to the rest from the apostates. But, the last thing he says v17 is back to "but there is a sin NOT to death," don't forget that!


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## Houston E.

Bruce,
Ok, I'm with you to an extent, but my difficulty is that John is being specific- "ask" for this, "don't ask" for that.This is all preceded by are confidence to ask because we are in Christ. I get what you are saying about focus, but focus is one thing, pronouncing someone is reprobate is another.

"when we know a person who is seeking to draw-off our other brethren from the gospel themselves once professed, and now despise, we actually need to pray that God will intervene to save the ones who are not yet engulfed"

Again, intervene is different than "not pray".The mention of sin is obvious, but I'm not sure we can conclude that he is specifically referring to someone reprobate.

I'm more inclined to see it as John saying because you are in Christ, ask and you will be heard. If you see a brother sinning, pray for him. But if one has sinned and result was death, no need to pray. 
I will keep pondering though...


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## Contra_Mundum

Trey,
I don't think John is (or would have us) pronounce anyone reprobate. I think the issue is simply this:

There will be times when praying for one person (the brother) means not-praying for another person (the person who is trying to drag him off to hell). I think John is saying little more than that we owe our "brother" the prayer. And we don't "owe" the apostate the same courtesy. We want God to save our brother, even if it means that God destroys the corrupter. "I don't say he should pray about that," meaning that because we believe God is promising to hear the prayer for our brother in grace, we don't pray for the same result for the other person (who I think is clearly beyond the definition of "brother" now). The context is pointing to a certain prayer that we should be _*expecting*_ God to answer in grace. Whatever he does to the other person, we are not praying with the same expectation.

Anyway, I recommend preaching the whole letter sometime. You may still have a different conclusion from me at the end, but the study changed my mind on how certain thoughts in the final verses were formed.

Blessings,


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## Houston E.

Thanks Bruce, will do. And btw, my "thanks" comes with a hint of sarcasm as now I am forced to dive into this further to settle my mind. I realize it's not a major issue, but here I was in my happy little world, overjoyed that the "CONTRA MUNDUM" and I agreed on something, only to be turned upside down! DRATS!!


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