# Rebellious teenager



## Devoted (Apr 20, 2022)

My husband and I have tried to raise our children faithfully in the Lord. We have tried to find that balance of providing opportunities for each of them to explore their talents while not overburdening the family schedule, to protect without overprotecting, to give time for peer friendships with trusted adults not too far away (Scouts, youth groups, parties at friends’ houses, etc). Family devotions every night, worship on the Lord’s Day, prayer together, catechism, scripture memory, discipline with the rod if necessary, leading kids in repentance for sin to the Lord and to each other. Drawing their attention to the joy and peace we have when we draw near to God and walk in His ways, what wonder there is in His love for us that He sent Jesus to die for us!

One of the freedoms we gave our son was to bike around the local towns for exercise last year, when he was 14. He abused this freedom and deceptively began just going to hang out downtown with a crowd of promiscuous, drug using, gender confused kids (after giving us routes of the 25-mile loops he planned to take). Of course we didn’t give him a smartphone that we could track him with—those screen struggles were a whole other battle. 

Over the course of the last 9 months or so he went from a teen who struggled mightily with some temptations but still wanted to pursue involvement with church and faith (we were also in between churches last year so that was hard on him)… to a hard hearted, identifying with the rainbow alphabet, self-centered, bitter, and seemingly unreachable teen who wants nothing to do with God or family. And he considers us his prison guards because we will not let him go and hang out with those kids anymore, literally pacing around like a caged animal. 

At this age (now 15), when we wanted to start letting go more as he grew into adulthood, we are having to take away freedom after freedom. But this discipline is not affecting his heart and seems to only harden him more. 

We are at a loss. I am crying out to God for my son.

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## Jeri Tanner (Apr 20, 2022)

Devoted said:


> My husband and I have tried to raise our children faithfully in the Lord. We have tried to find that balance of providing opportunities for each of them to explore their talents while not overburdening the family schedule, to protect without overprotecting, to give time for peer friendships with trusted adults not too far away (Scouts, youth groups, parties at friends’ houses, etc). Family devotions every night, worship on the Lord’s Day, prayer together, catechism, scripture memory, discipline with the rod if necessary, leading kids in repentance for sin to the Lord and to each other. Drawing their attention to the joy and peace we have when we draw near to God and walk in His ways, what wonder there is in His love for us that He sent Jesus to die for us!
> 
> One of the freedoms we gave our son was to bike around the local towns for exercise last year, when he was 14. He abused this freedom and deceptively began just going to hang out downtown with a crowd of promiscuous, drug using, gender confused kids (after giving us routes of the 25-mile loops he planned to take). Of course we didn’t give him a smartphone that we could track him with—those screen struggles were a whole other battle.
> 
> ...


I feel your pain, dear sister. I have been in your shoes. For now I’ll just say that you seem to be doing what the Lord would have you do, no matter how heart-breaking this present turn-out is for you. I have seen young men and women turned around! Take heart! Yes, labor in prayer for him and for your whole family. Ask the Lord to search all hearts, and show you and your husband, as well as your children, any hidden fault.

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## Polanus1561 (Apr 20, 2022)

I was once such a rebellious teenager, I thought I would go back to Jesus next time when I am older. I felt that I was obliged to taste the world. Jesus was a barrier to such an obligation. Such foolish thoughts. God saved me in college. Never stop pleading for mercy. God used the prayers of my family to bring me back as the prodigal.

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## retroGRAD3 (Apr 20, 2022)

I know it's not easy to hear, but stay the course and trust God and how he tells us to raise our children.

Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.
Proverbs 23:13‭-‬14 ESV

Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far from him.
Proverbs 22:15 ESV

Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him. 
Proverbs 13:24 ESV

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## Andres (Apr 20, 2022)

Devoted said:


> I am crying out to God for my son.


Keep doing this. I prayed for your son also.


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## GulfCoast Presbyterian (Apr 20, 2022)

Prayers sent.


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## Devoted (Apr 20, 2022)

Thank you for your prayers. Anyone who has BTDT, either as a teen or parent, please share anything by way of advice.


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## Devoted (Apr 20, 2022)

retroGRAD3 said:


> I know it's not easy to hear, but stay the course and trust God and how he tells us to raise our children.
> 
> Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.
> Proverbs 23:13‭-‬14 ESV
> ...


Do you believe physical discipline is appropriate for a teenager..?

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## Devoted (Apr 20, 2022)

John Yap said:


> I was once such a rebellious teenager, I thought I would go back to Jesus next time when I am older. I felt that I was obliged to taste the world. Jesus was a barrier to such an obligation. Such foolish thoughts. God saved me in college. Never stop pleading for mercy. God used the prayers of my family to bring me back as the prodigal.


Looking back, is there anything in particular that you wish your parents had done, or that you are glad your parents had done?


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## Goodcheer68 (Apr 20, 2022)

Devoted said:


> Do you believe physical discipline is appropriate for a teenager..?


In your case it will probably only harden your son’s heart more. I’m in almost the same exact situation. Beyond praying fervently being patient and gracious and picking our battles has been the only thing that has had any affect.


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## Jeri Tanner (Apr 20, 2022)

Devoted said:


> Thank you for your prayers. Anyone who has BTDT, either as a teen or parent, please share anything by way of advice.


Looking back, a very huge hole in our lives was lack of discipling from the church, both for us as parents and for my son. I noticed you're in a holding pattern at a church with which I guess you're not theologically aligned; do you have a minister and elders there who are able and willing to counsel y'all and your son?

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## retroGRAD3 (Apr 20, 2022)

Devoted said:


> Do you believe physical discipline is appropriate for a teenager..?


It might be for a boy. The other way to look at the "rod" is disciple in general. Basically, make sure there is discipline and sometimes it must be severe. Don't try to win his friendship or forget you are the parent (I am not saying you are doing this). 

However, even though I doubt in my sin sometimes, I find in the end, God's way is always the right way. So, if these passages mean physical punishment, then I have no reason to doubt God's wisdom.


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## retroGRAD3 (Apr 20, 2022)

Goodcheer68 said:


> In your case it will probably only it hardens your son’s heart more. I’m in almost the same exact situation. Beyond praying fervently being patient and gracious and picking our battles has been the only thing that has had any affect.


Where in the Bible do you get this from? I am being serious, perhaps I have missed a verse that would lead someone to the conclusion you have, about picking certain battles and not applying the rod. Otherwise, I say we just obey God and not try to bring in our own "wisdom".


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## Jeri Tanner (Apr 20, 2022)

Devoted said:


> literally pacing around like a caged animal.


Easy to say this, but I wouldn't let him do this. He has too much free time on his hands maybe! Can you find ways to keep him working and participating in lawful and healthy recreations?

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## Goodcheer68 (Apr 20, 2022)

retroGRAD3 said:


> Where in the Bible do you get this from? I am being serious, perhaps I have missed a verse that would lead someone to the conclusion you have, about picking certain battles and not applying the rod. Otherwise, I say we just obey God and not try to bring in our own "wisdom".


The verse about sparing the rod doesn’t always mean physical punishment at all times and every instance there is disobedience. We are reformed and not Biblicists. Sometimes correction can be done in other ways. I also don’t see God dishing out punishment every time his children were disobedient. They never would have even made it to the promise land God is long suffering, and sometimes his kindness is meant to lead to repentance. Jesus also didn’t scold Peter after Peter denied him. He gave Peter time to think about his actions and then in a loving way corrected him. Disciplining a teenager takes patience and wisdom not just physically punishing them every time they disobey. Otherwise you’ll never show them the grace and love that is in Christ Jesus

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## CovenantPatriot87 (Apr 20, 2022)

Devoted said:


> Do you believe physical discipline is appropriate for a teenager..?


Thats what the hebrew word "na'ar" means: A youth. The rod is for his back. Also see Proverbs 10:13; 19:29; 26:3. You might have applied it way too early. Our view (me and my wife) is that there is no such thing as "spanking" in Proverbs if we are to take the text for what it says. It works best for the teenage year and with enough force to cause "blueness of a wound" when applied to the back (Proverbs 20:30).

I dont think though that will solve the problem however. You could take more freedoms away but it might only harden his heart. You could yield some freedoms to him that he will just have to experience the consequences of his actions. I think of the prodigal son where the father gave him what he wanted but it was a sore lesson to him (Luke 15:11-32). Yet he came back later!

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## C4MERON (Apr 20, 2022)

CovenantPatriot87 said:


> Thats what the hebrew word "na'ar" means: A youth. The rod is for his back. Also see Proverbs 10:13; 19:29; 26:3. You might have applied it way too early. Our view (me and my wife) is that there is no such thing as "spanking" in Proverbs if we are to take the text for what it says. It works best for the teenage year and with enough force to cause "blueness of a wound" when applied to the back (Proverbs 20:30).
> 
> I dont think though that will solve the problem however. You could take more freedoms away but it might only harden his heart. You could yield some freedoms to him that he will just have to experience the consequences of his actions. I think of the prodigal son where the father gave him what he wanted but it was a sore lesson to him (Luke 15:11-32). Yet he came back later!



I know sometimes when I experience turbulance with my 12yo son, after removal 
of privelages he gets very embittered and would ‘double down’ to the point I have just said basically have it your way and have your privelages, but do not expect any further discipleship, leading, advice from me. Strangely enough it is only when it has gotten to that point do I see any signs of remorse or repentance. 
Almost like me ‘not caring’ is far worse than me caring enough to engage in heated debate and a verbal sparring. 

I think, however, physically disciplining a teenager could run the risk of him turning on you or in a moment of rage reporting you to the authorities and then social service entanglements/police involvement.


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## iainduguid (Apr 20, 2022)

CovenantPatriot87 said:


> Thats what the hebrew word "na'ar" means: A youth.


Ummm....no.

It _can _mean a youth or even a young man old enough to act as a soldier (2 Sam. 2:14). But it can also mean a newborn baby (1 Sam. 4:21) or an infant (Exod. 2:6). So you would have to establish on other grounds whether the proverb has in view military discipline or training young children, or something in between. Proverbs always require wisdom to apply properly (Prov. 26:9).

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## CovenantPatriot87 (Apr 20, 2022)

iainduguid said:


> Ummm....no.
> 
> It _can _mean a youth or even a young man old enough to act as a soldier (2 Sam. 2:14). But it can also mean a newborn baby (1 Sam. 4:21) or an infant (Exod. 2:6). So you would have to establish on other grounds whether the proverb has in view military discipline or training young children, or something in between. Proverbs always require wisdom to apply properly (Prov. 26:9).


Ummm...yes.

You cant "spank" a three month old Moses or new born Samuel, especially when Eli refuses to discipline his own adult children who are priests of the Lord and also called "na'ar", one of them being married and with child (1 Sam 4:19). You did not account for the other 235 times na'ar is used in the old testament and clearly refers to a youth or young man. The wisdom of proverbs is to use enough force to break the blood vessels beneath the skin, something that makes no sense in a infant or toddler than cannot reason abstractly. Its make perfect sense in a rebellious youth with an adult mind and body. The target audience of Proverbs are speaking to young men (Prov 1:4). Not two year olds and under.

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## retroGRAD3 (Apr 20, 2022)

Goodcheer68 said:


> The verse about sparing the rod doesn’t always mean physical punishment at all times and every instance there is disobedience. We are reformed and not Biblicists. Sometimes correction can be done in other ways. I also don’t see God dishing out punishment every time his children were disobedient. They never would have even made it to the promise land God is long suffering, and sometimes his kindness is meant to lead to repentance. Jesus also didn’t scold Peter after Peter denied him. He gave Peter time to think about his actions and then in a loving way corrected him. Disciplining a teenager takes patience and wisdom not just physically punishing them every time they disobey. Otherwise you’ll never show them the grace and love that is in Christ Jesus


The example of Peter and Jesus is not one that would reflect the context in proverbs as that is parents and child. Also, God did disciple Israel quite severely at times, often times with death. I agree it may not always be physical, but some type of disciple is required. If you allow a child to get away with something they will only get emboldened and commit worse acts in the future.


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## Eyedoc84 (Apr 20, 2022)

CovenantPatriot87 said:


> Ummm...yes.
> 
> You cant "spank" a three month old Moses or new born Samuel, especially when Eli refuses to discipline his own adult children who are priests of the Lord and also called "na'ar", one of them being married and with child (1 Sam 4:19). You did not account for the other 235 times na'ar is used in the old testament and clearly refers to a youth or young man. The wisdom of proverbs is to use enough force to break the blood vessels beneath the skin, something that makes no sense in a infant or toddler than cannot reason abstractly. Its make perfect sense in a rebellious youth with an adult mind and body. The target audience of Proverbs are speaking to young men (Prov 1:4). Not two year olds and under.


So at what age did you start using corporal punishment?


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## CovenantPatriot87 (Apr 20, 2022)

Eyedoc84 said:


> So at what age did you start using corporal punishment?


I dont. Its just not nesessary.

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## Eyedoc84 (Apr 20, 2022)

CovenantPatriot87 said:


> I dont. Its just not nesessary.


So what do you do when your child disobeys?

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## Goodcheer68 (Apr 20, 2022)

retroGRAD3 said:


> The example of Peter and Jesus is not one that would reflect the context in proverbs as that is parents and child. Also, God did disciple Israel quite severely at times, often times with death. I agree it may not always be physical, but some type of disciple is required. If you allow a child to get away with something they will only get emboldened and commit worse acts in the future.


The Peter/Jesus example does come into play because it’s an example on how we ought to act/ respond at times that can certainly be applied to raising children and other contexts. Not all Proverbs are absolutes unless your willing to say that every child raised in a Christian home will not depart from the faith. They are principles that should be used with wisdom. Yes God did deal with Israel with some grave consequences but not each and every time. He showed much mercy and Grace many many times. It takes wisdom and understanding your child to know when to give them grace or resist their proud behavior.

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## JennyGeddes (Apr 20, 2022)

Praying the Lord will soften the heart of your son, Kristin.

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## retroGRAD3 (Apr 20, 2022)

Goodcheer68 said:


> The Peter/Jesus example does come into play because it’s an example on how we ought to act/ respond at times that can certainly be applied to raising children and other contexts. Not all Proverbs are absolutes unless your willing to say that every child raised in a Christian home will not depart from the faith. They are principles that should be used with wisdom. Yes God did deal with Israel with some grave consequences but not each and every time. He showed much mercy and Grace many many times. It takes wisdom and understanding your child to know when to give them grace or resist their proud behavior.


Never saying it's always absolutes, but the commands are there for a reason and to be obeyed. Also, it seems to me these days, parents are far too charitable when it comes to disciple. Many Christian parents don't disciple much at all.

I would ask as well since you said you are in a similar situation, how is your approach currently working?


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## WalthervonderVogelweide (Apr 20, 2022)

Devoted said:


> My husband and I have tried to raise our children faithfully in the Lord. We have tried to find that balance of providing opportunities for each of them to explore their talents while not overburdening the family schedule, to protect without overprotecting, to give time for peer friendships with trusted adults not too far away (Scouts, youth groups, parties at friends’ houses, etc). Family devotions every night, worship on the Lord’s Day, prayer together, catechism, scripture memory, discipline with the rod if necessary, leading kids in repentance for sin to the Lord and to each other. Drawing their attention to the joy and peace we have when we draw near to God and walk in His ways, what wonder there is in His love for us that He sent Jesus to die for us!
> 
> One of the freedoms we gave our son was to bike around the local towns for exercise last year, when he was 14. He abused this freedom and deceptively began just going to hang out downtown with a crowd of promiscuous, drug using, gender confused kids (after giving us routes of the 25-mile loops he planned to take). Of course we didn’t give him a smartphone that we could track him with—those screen struggles were a whole other battle.
> 
> ...


While I have little wisdom to share from a parent's perspective, I hope I can share something encouraging. When I was around 14, I went down a very similar path. It began with feeling like I didn't fit in at our church and, being unregenerate, I began seeking a different worldview altogether, one that was antithetical to Christianity. That's a fancy way to say that I became a rebel. By the time I was 16, I had found ways to avoid my parents almost all the time. I got a job, made friends who did drugs, and spent most of my money on drugs. By the time I was 17, I was a fully indoctrinated liberal, pothead, and general lawbreaker.

I still don't know what was going on in my parents' heads through all of this, except that I made them witness things that I can never fully apologize for (I do hope you never have to pick your son up after being arrested for a DUI). But when I was 17, they told me that I could either come to church every Lord's Day or leave the house. So I did. For a while, I showed up and firmly refused to talk to anyone. I remember sitting in the fellowship hall during the service, reading Wittgenstein and thinking about how deranged everyone there was. I think this went on for about six months until I started to at least talk to people.

I have to skip over details of the immense patience and love that God's people showed me during the next year or so, before and after I was called. But there was a particular day when I sat in on a sermon and got that feeling of being spoken to directly. I was indignant, because I literally thought I was being spoken about in the pulpit. That anger soon passed into sorrow, and then into curiosity of how I could feel so sorrowful over sin, which I denied the reality of. I still didn't consider becoming a Christian, but soon after, I started developing a relationship with the pastor and his wife, even spending days and nights over their house. One day, the pastor's wife said something like, "If you're going to criticize Christianity, you should at least read the Bible." It wasn't far into reading the Gospel of Mark that I was overwhelmed with sorrow and adoration for Christ, and I began to pray. I became a communicant member of the church a few months after my 18th birthday.

I will say that my parents were overly lenient on me as I was descending into that madness. They were busy with the family business and had a hard enough time communicating with each other, I think. I'm not sure if there was a moment of realization for them about how hardened I had become, but if there was, it was at least a couple years after I had started down that path. Either way, it would have been extremely difficult for them to discipline me once I was 15 or 16. Like you mention, whenever they tried to discipline me, it only hardened me further. edit: I'm not saying you should let him run wild. It's probably best to keep him away from those people despite his attitude about it.

I know they prayed for me fervently and constantly, and so did the church. So your son will be in my prayers, and I will share this with my parents so they can pray as well. If you'd like to talk to my mother or father, I'd be happy to put you in contact with them. I know they learned a lot from dealing with me as a teenager.

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## py3ak (Apr 20, 2022)

[Moderating]
This is a discussion board, but this is also a thread about a tough situation. If you find an invincible need to argue about other people's problems, start a new thread.
[/Moderating]

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## ZackF (Apr 20, 2022)

Devoted said:


> My husband and I have tried to raise our children faithfully in the Lord. We have tried to find that balance of providing opportunities for each of them to explore their talents while not overburdening the family schedule, to protect without overprotecting, to give time for peer friendships with trusted adults not too far away (Scouts, youth groups, parties at friends’ houses, etc). Family devotions every night, worship on the Lord’s Day, prayer together, catechism, scripture memory, discipline with the rod if necessary, leading kids in repentance for sin to the Lord and to each other. Drawing their attention to the joy and peace we have when we draw near to God and walk in His ways, what wonder there is in His love for us that He sent Jesus to die for us!
> 
> One of the freedoms we gave our son was to bike around the local towns for exercise last year, when he was 14. He abused this freedom and deceptively began just going to hang out downtown with a crowd of promiscuous, drug using, gender confused kids (after giving us routes of the 25-mile loops he planned to take). Of course we didn’t give him a smartphone that we could track him with—those screen struggles were a whole other battle.
> 
> ...


Our oldest is almost 11. She's exhibited some strong willed, rebellious behavior. My wife and I have had numerous conversations about her and with her. We've engaged outside counsel as well. One thing we try to never forget is there is not usually one thing.  There isn't a silver bullet-that is one thing to say, to do, to take away or any other magic approach. Sometimes the only option is to press on. The Lord provides many means of grace in our lives. He sustains us by Word and Sacrament of course. He also sustains us by the prayers and encouragement of others.


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## Goodcheer68 (Apr 20, 2022)

retroGRAD3 said:


> Never saying it's always absolutes, but the commands are there for a reason and to be obeyed. Also, it seems to me these days, parents are far too charitable when it comes to disciple. Many Christian parents don't disciple much at all.
> 
> I would ask as well since you said you are in a similar situation, how is your approach currently working?


I’ve never said we don’t discipline him but you can’t micro manage a teen - that only creates an embittered person. As far as the situation It’s in one sense better - Less outburst and more real conversations. But he isn’t a believer. His Salvation is in the Lords hands so he will see fit or not to open his eyes and turn him to God.

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## Jerusalem Blade (Apr 20, 2022)

Will pray, Kristin! 

Physical discipline on a 15-year-old such as yours is sure to backfire and could lead to a violent response. Don't give even a hint of that! Also, you might assume he's getting high with his friends – that's the rage nowadays, a whole other ball of wax.

Asking the Lord for discernment into his heart, and prayer, are your best moves. Locating a sound church in your general area would also be a great help to you all.

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## JennyGeddes (Apr 20, 2022)

I cannot help but think of Ephesians 6:4 
Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.

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## Devoted (Apr 21, 2022)

Jeri Tanner said:


> Easy to say this, but I wouldn't let him do this. He has too much free time on his hands maybe! Can you find ways to keep him working and participating in lawful and healthy recreations?


See, this is where I wonder if I'm picking battles wisely. Generally we ignore this pacing since he clearly does it only when/where he is visible to us as an expression of his dissatisfaction with life. I agree he has too much free time, but filling it hasn't been easy. We have several other kids, so the household chores are spread around. He is blowing off his schoolwork (especially the assignments I give him rather than those of his other teachers of online classes) rather than putting effort in. My strong belief is that teens should be physically working hard with their dads or other men most days, but our current culture of ease and technology inhibits this.

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## Devoted (Apr 21, 2022)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Will pray, Kristin!
> 
> Physical discipline on a 15-year-old such as yours is sure to backfire and could lead to a violent response. Don't give even a hint of that! Also, you might assume he's getting high with his friends – that's the rage nowadays, a whole other ball of wax.
> 
> Asking the Lord for discernment into his heart, and prayer, are your best moves. Locating a sound church in your general area would also be a great help to you all.


I agree, I do not think physical discipline is in any way appropriate. I was very surprised by the other response.
The church we are currently attending is wonderful. We just disagree about baptism and therefore can't become members. It has been so hard to know what to do. But I am submitting to my husband's decisions on where we worship.


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## Devoted (Apr 21, 2022)

JennyGeddes said:


> I cannot help but think of Ephesians 6:4
> Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.


Yes. We are trying.


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## Devoted (Apr 21, 2022)

WalthervonderVogelweide said:


> While I have little wisdom to share from a parent's perspective, I hope I can share something encouraging. When I was around 14, I went down a very similar path. It began with feeling like I didn't fit in at our church and, being unregenerate, I began seeking a different worldview altogether, one that was antithetical to Christianity. That's a fancy way to say that I became a rebel. By the time I was 16, I had found ways to avoid my parents almost all the time. I got a job, made friends who did drugs, and spent most of my money on drugs. By the time I was 17, I was a fully indoctrinated liberal, pothead, and general lawbreaker.
> 
> I still don't know what was going on in my parents' heads through all of this, except that I made them witness things that I can never fully apologize for (I do hope you never have to pick your son up after being arrested for a DUI). But when I was 17, they told me that I could either come to church every Lord's Day or leave the house. So I did. For a while, I showed up and firmly refused to talk to anyone. I remember sitting in the fellowship hall during the service, reading Wittgenstein and thinking about how deranged everyone there was. I think this went on for about six months until I started to at least talk to people.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much. This is encouraging.
What we struggle so much about is the fact that he is our eldest child, and they are all pretty close in age (less than 2 years apart). We don't want to have different standards for him than we do our other kids.


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## Devoted (Apr 21, 2022)

C4MERON said:


> I know sometimes when I experience turbulance with my 12yo son, after removal
> of privelages he gets very embittered and would ‘double down’ to the point I have just said basically have it your way and have your privelages, but do not expect any further discipleship, leading, advice from me. Strangely enough it is only when it has gotten to that point do I see any signs of remorse or repentance.
> Almost like me ‘not caring’ is far worse than me caring enough to engage in heated debate and a verbal sparring.
> 
> I think, however, physically disciplining a teenager could run the risk of him turning on you or in a moment of rage reporting you to the authorities and then social service entanglements/police involvement.


I can see in some situations this being a wise course of action. However, we can't just let our son have homoerotic writing in our home or decorate his room with rainbows. Like I had to explain to him last night, in our house we must hold to God's standards. When he is no longer under our care, provision, and protection, he will be free to make all those kinds of decisions about how he spends his time.

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## C4MERON (Apr 21, 2022)

Yes agreed; wisdom is necessary. Your house, your rules, end of. I explain the same to my son in certain circumstances.

I have always considered that later in teen life there may come a point where, if said older teen/20-something, begins to bring in ‘harmful’ things into the home (drugs etc - and of course Im not saying your son is - merely describing a hypothetical) that one has a duty of care to the rest of the family - physically, mentally and spiritually - and may be necessary to remove such a person for the safety and well-being of the rest of the family (ie wife and siblings).

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## Jeri Tanner (Apr 21, 2022)

Devoted said:


> My strong belief is that teens should be physically working hard with their dads or other men most days, but our current culture of ease and technology inhibits this.


Yes, this softness makes things so much more difficult. And I do understand about picking your battles, and sometimes only you and your husband will know which ones to pick.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Apr 21, 2022)

Kristin, you said, "The church we are currently attending is wonderful. We just disagree about baptism and therefore can't become members." If that's the worst of your difficulty with your current church – and you were previously able to baptize your other children – you're not in bad shape church-wise, assuming you have the benefit of pastoral care, discipline, and guidance. I have had to make that choice myself at a certain point in our lives, to my wife's and my great benefit – _and_ the church's – as we were able to serve the church with our gifts as well as receive. Of paramount importance is being knit into a sound local body of Christ's people. Your husband's choice is wise.

You also said, "Like I had to explain to him last night, in our house we must hold to God's standards. When he is no longer under our care, provision, and protection, he will be free to make all those kinds of decisions about how he spends his time." This kind of firm but loving setting of limits is needful and excellent. May your "prodigal" be granted grace to understand his terrible danger, and the work of the evil one in his heart, and turn to the Savior for mercy and new life! Will remember to pray for you all.

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## nickipicki123 (Apr 22, 2022)

CovenantPatriot87 said:


> I dont. Its just not nesessary.


oy, that's a relief that you don't bruise your children


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## SavedSinner (Apr 22, 2022)

Devoted said:


> My husband and I have tried to raise our children faithfully in the Lord. We have tried to find that balance of providing opportunities for each of them to explore their talents while not overburdening the family schedule, to protect without overprotecting, to give time for peer friendships with trusted adults not too far away (Scouts, youth groups, parties at friends’ houses, etc). Family devotions every night, worship on the Lord’s Day, prayer together, catechism, scripture memory, discipline with the rod if necessary, leading kids in repentance for sin to the Lord and to each other. Drawing their attention to the joy and peace we have when we draw near to God and walk in His ways, what wonder there is in His love for us that He sent Jesus to die for us!
> 
> One of the freedoms we gave our son was to bike around the local towns for exercise last year, when he was 14. He abused this freedom and deceptively began just going to hang out downtown with a crowd of promiscuous, drug using, gender confused kids (after giving us routes of the 25-mile loops he planned to take). Of course we didn’t give him a smartphone that we could track him with—those screen struggles were a whole other battle.
> 
> ...


Cycling is good for almost everyone. What about letting him ride a few hours around sunrise, before school or work? And you can give him a phone with the Strava app on it, which is free, and records the entire ride, mph, miles, time, etc. Getting out before the crack of dawn as his friends sleep-in would be good for him in many ways. The governments around the world restricted people so much during the virus scam and with society requiring kids to sit at desks in school all day in those windowless buildings that look like prisons--- kids need to be out on the bicycle, so maybe give-back the phone and the bicycle and let him get out early every morning.


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## Devoted (Apr 22, 2022)

SavedSinner said:


> Cycling is good for almost everyone. What about letting him ride a few hours around sunrise, before school or work? And you can give him a phone with the Strava app on it, which is free, and records the entire ride, mph, miles, time, etc. Getting out before the crack of dawn as his friends sleep-in would be good for him in many ways. The governments around the world restricted people so much during the virus scam and with society requiring kids to sit at desks in school all day in those windowless buildings that look like prisons--- kids need to be out on the bicycle, so maybe give-back the phone and the bicycle and let him get out early every morning.


Thank you. Yes, we have encouraged him to go out on his bike at other times of day, just not after-public-school hours when kids gather unsupervised downtown. And we just ordered a phone that has no internet capability for all the kids to be able to use as needed. But of course that isn't what he wants, so he is all the more hard-hearted.


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## Stephen L Smith (Apr 22, 2022)

Kirstin, one thing that has helped me when I am in a difficult situation is understanding how to pray fervently. Luke 11:1-13 is very helpful in this regard. Look at the expressions 'ask', 'seek', 'knock'. Also in the goodness of God, He promises the Holy Spirit to those who ask. Do ask the Holy Spirit to work mightily in your sons life


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## jwithnell (Apr 22, 2022)

Yours is a terribly difficult situation. It sounds like you've done all you can to bring the means of grace into the lives of all your children. Pray that the Holy Spirit will bring fruit from your effort. If it's an encouragement, consider how the daughter who gave us the most trouble is now being incredibly faithful in rearing her own children in Christ.

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## CovenantPatriot87 (Apr 23, 2022)

Eyedoc84 said:


> So what do you do when your child disobeys?


Correct them without punishment. Usually a "lets try that again" remedys the disobedience.


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## CovenantPatriot87 (Apr 23, 2022)

nickipicki123 said:


> oy, that's a relief that you don't bruise your children


The Lord disciplined the first generation, and not the second, in the wilderness. By current "reformed" practice, the second generation should have been cut off, because we expect the second generation to act like adults when they have no knowledge between good and evil (Deut 1:39).

I digress though .


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## CovenantPatriot87 (Apr 23, 2022)

retroGRAD3 said:


> Never saying it's always absolutes, but the commands are there for a reason and to be obeyed. Also, it seems to me these days, parents are far too charitable when it comes to disciple. Many Christian parents don't disciple much at all.
> 
> I would ask as well since you said you are in a similar situation, how is your approach currently working?


Was the Lord himself too charitable?

I hear this waaay too often:

"ThEy nEeD tO oBeY tHe FiRsT tImE!!"

It boggles my mind why we set a higher standard for our kids than us grown up:

Num 14:22 Because all those *MEN* which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these *TEN TIMES*, and have not hearkened to my voice;

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## CovenantPatriot87 (Apr 23, 2022)

Devoted said:


> My husband and I have tried to raise our children faithfully in the Lord. We have tried to find that balance of providing opportunities for each of them to explore their talents while not overburdening the family schedule, to protect without overprotecting, to give time for peer friendships with trusted adults not too far away (Scouts, youth groups, parties at friends’ houses, etc). Family devotions every night, worship on the Lord’s Day, prayer together, catechism, scripture memory, discipline with the rod if necessary, leading kids in repentance for sin to the Lord and to each other. Drawing their attention to the joy and peace we have when we draw near to God and walk in His ways, what wonder there is in His love for us that He sent Jesus to die for us!
> 
> One of the freedoms we gave our son was to bike around the local towns for exercise last year, when he was 14. He abused this freedom and deceptively began just going to hang out downtown with a crowd of promiscuous, drug using, gender confused kids (after giving us routes of the 25-mile loops he planned to take). Of course we didn’t give him a smartphone that we could track him with—those screen struggles were a whole other battle.
> 
> ...


I guess I want to ask, what is his explaination for his behavior and choices? It might not seem rational, but his choices might be consistent with his thinking.


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## retroGRAD3 (Apr 23, 2022)

CovenantPatriot87 said:


> Was the Lord himself too charitable?
> 
> I hear this waaay too often:
> 
> ...


I never said they need to obey the first time. If I did please point it out. The point of my comment and my other comments is it seems that physical punishment is almost never used in Christian communities these days. Yet it is commanded in scripture. So to never use it, would be sin in my eyes and is to set ourselves up as knowing better than God. In our house, my daughter is given complete explanations of what is expected of her (as God has done for us in his commandments). If she disobeys, she is warned, often several times. If she persists, she will receive a spank on the behind. She is 10 at the moment. If the next day she continues with the same behavior, there will be far less warnings as she already knows the rule. We even ask her, should you be doing this and she will answer no. 

Anyway my point is this, use wisdom for a given situation, but don't ignore God's command to use physical punishment when the situation warrants it.


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## Eyedoc84 (Apr 23, 2022)

God’s mercy is in not sending us to hell upon every disobedience, not overlooking sin until it “gets bad enough” that something must be done. We still receive temporal discipline, often through the consequences of our sinful choices. Every disobedience deserves punishment, that is what we are teaching our children. Mercy comes in the immediate restoration of the relationship.


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## Mr. Great-Heart (Apr 23, 2022)

Devoted said:


> I agree, I do not think physical discipline is in any way appropriate. I was very surprised by the other response.


You did mention it in the first post, though I don't think anyone here has the detailed knowledge of your family needed to either recommend or discourage it at the present time. As was already mentioned, seek pastoral counsel.

What you have described sounds like a very difficult and painful situation. May God give you and your husband wisdom and strength to persevere, and may your son be turned back from the path he is currently on.


CovenantPatriot87 said:


> Was the Lord himself too charitable?
> 
> I hear this waaay too often:
> 
> ...


That is a dangerous question to ask, brother. What are you even trying to prove with this post? Continue reading the chapter and find out what happened to those men. Read verse 35. The Lord disciplined the generation that sinned. Your children are sinners, right?

You are correct in one sense though, that this is a matter of life and death. Much more could be said, but I don't want to further derail the thread.


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## Morgan (Apr 24, 2022)

I understand your pain and concern, I read these threads to see what others do since I have no solution but to pray. This is a heartbreaking situation and I weep with you over it seeking God's intervention.


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## Miss Marple (Apr 24, 2022)

It is brutal when we realize, we cannot save them. It seems we would do anything if it would be effective; but, there is nothing. Nothing.

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## OPC'n (Apr 24, 2022)

This is hard and tears your heart. All I can say is don’t loosen the boundaries and convictions of your household. A parent I know did and I’m not sure she’ll ever get her daughter back off drugs. Sometimes children will test you hard to see if you love them enough to keep tight on the reins. Also, ignore those posts about using a rod hard enough to cause bruising. Not only is that illegal and you’ll lose him and your other children and possibly go to prison, but it’s not biblical to abuse children.

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## Devoted (Apr 25, 2022)

Mr. Great-Heart said:


> You did mention it in the first post, though I don't think anyone here has the detailed knowledge of your family needed to either recommend or discourage it at the present time. As was already mentioned, seek pastoral counsel.
> 
> What you have described sounds like a very difficult and painful situation. May God give you and your husband wisdom and strength to persevere, and may your son be turned back from the path he is currently on.


Thank you. Yes, I mentioned the rod because we spanked our little kids with wooden spoons when necessary. I have never heard of anyone advocating beating their teen black and blue and insist that's God's way.

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## Devoted (Apr 25, 2022)

OPC'n said:


> This is hard and tears your heart. All I can say is don’t loosen the boundaries and convictions of your household. A parent I know did and I’m not sure she’ll ever get her daughter back off drugs. Sometimes children will test you hard to see if you love them enough to keep tight on the reins. Also, ignore those posts about using a rod hard enough to cause bruising. Not only is that illegal and you’ll lose him and your other children and possibly go to prison, but it’s not biblical to abuse children.


Thank you. It's so hard to know what to do.


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## Devoted (Apr 25, 2022)

Thank you to all those who have prayed to the Lord on our behalf.

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## Jeri Tanner (Apr 25, 2022)

On providing physical labor for older kids and teenagers: I had a conversation with a young friend yesterday in which she mentioned how hard she and her siblings had to work at chores on their farm (and how good it was for them, in retrospect). I thought of this situation, and mentioned that most kids are missing out on that, and her response was yes, but there can still be constant hands-on projects planned, with kiddos’ help required— build a little fence, paint a room, build a shed, buy an old car to work on, and so forth. I thought this was wise. Of course, in most cases where this is a son being put to work, it would likely take the dad’s commitment to implement and back up.

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## arapahoepark (Apr 28, 2022)

Jeri Tanner said:


> On providing physical labor for older kids and teenagers: I had a conversation with a young friend yesterday in which she mentioned how hard she and her siblings had to work at chores on their farm (and how good it was for them, in retrospect). I thought of this situation, and mentioned that most kids are missing out on that, and her response was yes, but there can still be constant hands-on projects planned, with kiddos’ help required— build a little fence, paint a room, build a shed, buy an old car to work on, and so forth. I thought this was wise. Of course, in most cases where this is a son being put to work, it would likely take the dad’s commitment to implement and back up.


A mentor at my school has said she believes boys, in particular, could do manual labor for their middle school years and then go onto high school with little delay. So it seems evident all around that blue collar labor like that will help a lot.

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## LilyG (Apr 30, 2022)

Schoolman said:


> Teens are meant to be rebellious. Their “rebellion” informs them to find jobs, leave their parents, start families, make their parents happy, and come back with their wives and toddlers to church. Where would we all be without teens asking frightening questions and genuinely coming to faith?
> 
> I learned a lot from rebellious teens who asked embarrassing questions and eventually won answers. Some of the most rebellious I know are most reliable, faithful Christians today in middle age.



They are not meant to be rebellious. Growing more independent, processing what they have been taught and confess, working through hang-ups, doubts and questions, sure. 

Not rebellious. "Honor your father and your mother..."

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## CovenantPatriot87 (Apr 30, 2022)

Devoted said:


> I agree, I do not think physical discipline is in any way appropriate. I was very surprised by the other response.
> The church we are currently attending is wonderful. We just disagree about baptism and therefore can't become members. It has been so hard to know what to do. But I am submitting to my husband's decisions on where we worship.


I think you should be deciding that together as you are both following Christ. Your his wife, not his child. Ya'll should be studying both sides of the issue together and then eventually, you should come to an agreement together.


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## CovenantPatriot87 (Apr 30, 2022)

Devoted said:


> Thank you. Yes, I mentioned the rod because we spanked our little kids with wooden spoons when necessary. I have never heard of anyone advocating beating their teen black and blue and insist that's God's way.


I mean...thats what it says...


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## iainduguid (May 1, 2022)

CovenantPatriot87 said:


> I mean...thats what it says...


First, this isn't how wisdom literature works. It takes wisdom to apply proverbs because you have to know where the proverb fits. Is this an "Answer the fool according to his folly" situation or a "Don't answer a fool according to his folly"? It depends; some proverbs have universal applicability, others don't. It's not clear to me why you have applied this proverb just to teenagers rather than wives, servants, infants, or the state discipline of offenders: the proverb doesn't say "Beat a teenager until he is bruised." So your conclusion doesn't rest simply on "that's what it says"

Second, what Proverbs 20:30 says, literally, is "Blows that wound rub away evil". The word for "blows" here (_chabburot_) is never used of child discipline. It is generally used of wounds suffered by adults, inflicted by by man or God (Exod. 21:25; Ps 38:6; Isa. 1:6; 53:5). Ditto the parallel term, "stripes" (_makkeh; _Lev. 26:21; Deut. 25:3; Isa. 1:6, etc.). In other words, the proverb is explaining how we (believers) should receive hard providences (which may or may not involve physical bruises) as God's gracious discipline to spare us from something worse.

Hence John Gill says: "Some men must be beaten black and blue, or must have very sore correction, before they can be reclaimed and reformed from their evil ways; so some interpret it of the evil man: sanctified afflictions to God's people are the means of purging away their iniquities, their dross, and their sin; but there is nothing so effectually cleanses from sin as the blood of Jesus, or heals or cures of it as his blue wounds and stripes."

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## Taylor (May 1, 2022)

CovenantPatriot87 said:


> I mean...thats what it says...


Serious question: Do you leave bruises on your children when you discipline them?


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## Mr. Great-Heart (May 1, 2022)

Taylor said:


> Serious question: Do you leave bruises on your children when you discipline them?


Your question is answered by post #22 of this thread, back on page 1.


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## Devoted (May 1, 2022)

CovenantPatriot87 said:


> I think you should be deciding that together as you are both following Christ. Your his wife, not his child. Ya'll should be studying both sides of the issue together and then eventually, you should come to an agreement together.


Well sure. But in the case of disagreement, is not the wife supposed to defer to her husband's judgment as long as he is not asking her to sin? And anyway, that's not the point of this post.


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## CovenantPatriot87 (May 1, 2022)

iainduguid said:


> First, this isn't how wisdom literature works. It takes wisdom to apply proverbs because you have to know where the proverb fits. Is this an "Answer the fool according to his folly" situation or a "Don't answer a fool according to his folly"? It depends; some proverbs have universal applicability, others don't. It's not clear to me why you have applied this proverb just to teenagers rather than wives, servants, infants, or the state discipline of offenders: the proverb doesn't say "Beat a teenager until he is bruised." So your conclusion doesn't rest simply on "that's what it says"
> 
> Second, what Proverbs 20:30 says, literally, is "Blows that wound rub away evil". The word for "blows" here (_chabburot_) is never used of child discipline. It is generally used of wounds suffered by adults, inflicted by by man or God (Exod. 21:25; Ps 38:6; Isa. 1:6; 53:5). Ditto the parallel term, "stripes" (_makkeh; _Lev. 26:21; Deut. 25:3; Isa. 1:6, etc.). In other words, the proverb is explaining how we (believers) should receive hard providences (which may or may not involve physical bruises) as God's gracious discipline to spare us from something worse.
> 
> Hence John Gill says: "Some men must be beaten black and blue, or must have very sore correction, before they can be reclaimed and reformed from their evil ways; so some interpret it of the evil man: sanctified afflictions to God's people are the means of purging away their iniquities, their dross, and their sin; but there is nothing so effectually cleanses from sin as the blood of Jesus, or heals or cures of it as his blue wounds and stripes."


Would this not be the same idea for the rod passages as well? Why then must we appeal to "wisdom" outside the text of the rod passages in proverbs to come up with a doctrine of "spanking"?


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## CovenantPatriot87 (May 1, 2022)

Devoted said:


> Well sure. But in the case of disagreement, is not the wife supposed to defer to her husband's judgment as long as he is not asking her to sin? And anyway, that's not the point of this post.


Are you paedo or credo? I guess thats my next question. I actually forbid my wife (ironically) to defer to my judgment even if (I think) it ends up me being right. The devil is a lot more subtle that just "asking" or "suggesting" something black and white. There is a reason Eve was decieved since it required ignorance of something the devil could latch onto. I always want her to own things for herself and not because im the man. You could say we are a board of directors


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## iainduguid (May 1, 2022)

CovenantPatriot87 said:


> Would this not be the same idea for the rod passages as well? Why then must we appeal to "wisdom" outside the text of the rod passages in proverbs to come up with a doctrine of "spanking"?


The "rod" passages do explicitly connect discipline with youth (Prov. 22:15; 23:13; 29:15). But yes, basic interpretation of any Biblical proverb involves wisdom. Do I have to spank for every offense? What range of ages does _na'ar _cover? Do I have to use a rod or will my hand serve adequately? Since the Hebrew word _shebet _can mean "cudgel" as well as "rod," should I discipline my child with a cudgel? Any single proverb will not give you a complete philosophy of child discipline, and if we use the wrong proverb for the particular situation, then we can do severe damage (Prov. 26:7, 9).

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## CovenantPatriot87 (May 2, 2022)

Taylor said:


> Serious question: Do you leave bruises on your children when you discipline them?


Of course not! Not at five, two and seven months. These are not na'arim's. I dont hit them at all, lol.

Its interesting that no one is able to "obey" these texts because its been turned into a catch-22 promise. You if you took these text literally it would deemed "child abuse" but if you make them into something else you are now disobeying what it actually says.


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## Tom Hart (May 2, 2022)

@CovenantPatriot87,

Respectfully, I do not think your contributions here are helpful to the conversation; they have taken it rather off course from the OP. I would urge you to take your considerations to another thread.

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## iainduguid (May 2, 2022)

CovenantPatriot87 said:


> Of course not! Not at five, two and seven months. These are not na'arim's. I dont hit them at all, lol.
> 
> Its interesting that no one is able to "obey" these texts because its been turned into a catch-22 promise. You if you took these text literally it would deemed "child abuse" but if you make them into something else you are now disobeying what it actually says.


Actually, in Biblical terms they are _ne'arim _(if they are boys), as I demonstrated in my earlier post (see 1 Sam. 4:21; Exod. 2:6). _na'ar _is a term with very broad semantic range. But that doesn't mean you should beat them black and blue (there is actually nothing color related in the Hebrew of Prov. 20:30: these are "Blows that wound"). Again, Proverbs don't become meaningless just because we don't interpret them as literal commands: nobody interprets Proverbs 25:24 as an instruction to live on the corner of your roof because you happen to have a quarrelsome wife. We interpret proverbs as proverbs, and let them guide our behavior appropriately. I cited John Gill to give one example of how Reformed interpretation of this proverb has not in the past seen it as instruction for child discipline. Can you give examples of well-respected Reformed scholars who agree with your position?

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## Elizabeth (May 3, 2022)

Oh, Kristin, I am so sorry for your pain.
I know the seemingly unbearable sorrow of these things.
Please know that *the Lord* keeps your heart, not your son. We tend to idolize our children.
Your home is your (as parents) domain, you make the rules. 
Set your face like flint over this. 
Try to remove the motherly emotion and concern _as much as possible_ when dealing with your son. 
Be straightforward and unbending when warranted. Don't let him work you.
Be prepared to let him go emotionally. This may be the best thing for him. Get stern. I wish I had.
I let my girls have their own way because I felt they were so very special.
Nope...they are just sinners like the rest of us. Remember this.
Face like flint. Protect your other children. 
Do not beat this young man as has been suggested.
There is a whole society just waiting for you to do that.
Again: be firm, don't be manipulated. Set that face like flint. 
Pray, but don't give your life over to this chaos. 
You have other responsibilities: to your Lord, your husband and your other children.

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## LilyG (May 4, 2022)

Dear sister, I empathize as I think about my oldest brother, the black sheep of the family, who gave my parents much grief (now a believer - praise the Lord!). I have young children of my own, and sometimes agonize over this possibility. This post from the Heidelblog was helpful, and I remembered you.









Grace for Parents Of Prodigals


I will will be a God to you and to your children… The promise is for you and for your children… As a dad of a prodigal adult child, I would like to remind myself and anyone who cares to read of a f…




heidelblog.net


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