# 20 Mslm Nations ban us Religious Workers



## Pergamum (Aug 16, 2008)

20 Muslim nations ban U.S. religious workers


Brothers, pray for these nations. Also, what should be our strategy in such cases.

Below are some of the most neediest fields. May the Lord raise up his church and cause Her to prosper in each of these nations and all the multitudes of ethno-linguistic groups that live inside their national boundaries.


Nations not offering religious visas & denying or restricting entry to religious workers:

I. No religious visas, entry denied to foreign religious workers:

Afghanistan
Algeria
Bahrain
Bhutan
Brunei
Egypt
Iran
Iraq
Jordan
Kuwait
Libya
Maldives
Morocco
North Korea
Oman
Palestine
Qatar
Saudi Arabia
Syria
Turkmenistan
United Arab Emirates
Uzbekistan
Yemen

II. No religious visas, entry allowed, but with restrictions:

Armenia
Azerbaijan
Belarus
Burma
Cambodia
China
Georgia
Indonesia
Kazakhstan
Kyrgyzstan
Russia
Serbia
Solomon Islands
Tajikistan
Tuvalu
Vietnam


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## Presbyterian Deacon (Aug 16, 2008)

In the last days perilous times will come...


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## TimV (Aug 16, 2008)

Countries like Russia, Armenia, Georgia and Serbia are more worried by crazy US Pentecostals, JWs, Mormon, Moonies etc... and the social problems that they cause than anything. Those countries certainly have the Gospel available, and have had for centuries. Armenia for instance was the first country on earth to proclaim Christianity as her State religion, and right after that came Georgia, and that was over 16 centuries ago. It's not like they have restrictions on selling Bibles, going to church etc....

At least that's my take on it, although it has to be mentioned that State churches can get more than a bit territorial.


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## Pergamum (Aug 16, 2008)

Many "State" churches are agents of the state or dead or closely watched in many countries.

Most of these countries have a Christian presence somewhere, but not a live and active witness. Underground believers exist in all nations of the earth, however, the term "nation" does not capture the ethno-linguistic variety of peoples within the national boundaries of these places and some tribes and peoples have little or no Gospel witness.


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## TimV (Aug 16, 2008)

> Most of these countries have a Christian presence somewhere, but not a live and active witness. Underground believers exist in all nations of the earth, however, the term "nation" does not capture the ethno-linguistic variety of peoples within the national boundaries of these places and some tribes and peoples have little or no Gospel witness.



True, but I was just singling out some on the list where there are factors other than objections to Christianity that influence passport restrictions. A country like Armenia with a 98% ethnic homogeneous population, or Serbia and Georgia with small Muslim populations and others whom are either orthodox Christian or mixed animist still have had the Gospel preached to them for centuries.

I didn't mean to nit pick, it is just troublesome for me to see countries with very different situations lumped together on lists of that kind. I would naturally wish that Calvinistic Presbyterians were welcomed with open arms (and we are not forbidden to practice our faith in many of the countries on the list, or to advertise our understanding of Christianity) but when you've got all sorts of weird ideas that can spread there's another side to those visa restrictions.


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## Pergamum (Aug 16, 2008)

I would not call Greek Orthodox a healthy branch of Christianity, though it is better than nothing I suppose.

I am curious, however, why you singled out Pentecostals as seemingly part of the problem in your first response but do not seem to take as negative a view against Greek Orthodoxy. Pentecostalism is a lot closer to us than Greek Orthodoxy.


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## TimV (Aug 16, 2008)

> I am curious, however, why you singled out Pentecostals as seemingly part of the problem in your first response but do not seem to take as negative a view against Greek Orthodoxy. Pentecostalism is a lot closer to us than Greek Orthodoxy.



I didn't mention any countries with Greek Orthodox majorities, and wouldn't have called it healthy in any event. I don't agree with your statement that we're closer to Pentecostalism, at least when comparing orthodox Presbyterians and some of the examples of Pentecostalism recently discussed on this board.

If I were in charge of the countries I gave in the example, I wouldn't let Pentecostals or JWs or Mormons into the country if their intentions were to start up church plants. I would be interested in reading about any of the restrictions placed on any of the historic Reformed churches in the general area, though, like the Hungarian Reformed Church etc..


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## Pergamum (Aug 18, 2008)

You wouldn't let in evangelical Pentecostals? Greek Orthodox is largely dead ritual isn't it? I would rather have a Pentecostal than an incense swinging priest in a funny robe anyday


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## Jerusalem Blade (Aug 18, 2008)

Although I have Pentecostal friends -- dearly loved by me -- as _churches_ and purveyors of doctrine they can cause havoc in the spiritual welfare of the Christian community. I know, there are some responsible and mature believers among them. But the allowing entrance to "sources of revelation" besides the Scripture allows a principle whereby the demonic _always_ gains entrance. Pastorally, the toll is often great in terms of disordered lives and spiritual failure.

Fallen human nature just loves the flesh-activity said principle promotes. And it is hard to counter once it has gotten a foothold.

But, I will admit, better a Pentecostal church in a Muslim nation than nothing!


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## Pergamum (Aug 18, 2008)

_But, I will admit, better a Pentecostal church in a Muslim nation than nothing!_

My point exactly. How about in a Greek Orthodox nation now?


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## TimV (Aug 18, 2008)

There aren't any Greek Orthodox churches on that list. Some are close, some like the Armenians aren't. All have had the Gospel for centuries, and Bibles freely available.


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## Pergamum (Aug 18, 2008)

I guess I mean Russian orthodox and not Greek orthodox.

Russia, Armenia, Georgia and Serbia......all have the Gospel and enough Bibles? China, too, "has" the Gospel, at least in seed form. Every nation-state on earth probably has at least one Christian... But they certainly do not have thriving, active churches that preach the Gospel and reach out to their ethnic kin.


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## TimV (Aug 18, 2008)

> I guess I mean Russian orthodox and not Greek orthodox.
> 
> Russia, Armenia, Georgia and Serbia......all have the Gospel and enough Bibles? China, too, "has" the Gospel, at least in seed form. Every nation-state on each probably has at least one Christian...


All four have different churches, all four churches hold to the Ecumenical Councils, all four would resist Independent Baptist type churches as well as Pentecostals etc...due to the social disruption they can cause.

Some of the best Christian scholarship in the world comes out of those churches, some of the most significant sacrifices in history for the Kingdom have been made by members of those churches, and while they seem strange to many American Baptists, many things about American Baptists seem strange to them.

I've mentioned before on this forum how my old Pastor, RJ Rushdoony had a grandpa who was a Pastor in Armenia, and when the Turks gouged out his eyes due to his religious faith, he had memorised so much of the Bible that he was able to continue his ministry for the rest of his life. I, and other church history buffs could go on for hours; Serbia didn't want to lose Kosovo for more than one reason; they baptised in blood there, and it's very likely that people like you and I from NW European countries wouldn't be riding high if it weren't for them absorbing the shock of Islam. Georgia and Russian have similar stories.

Funny robes? OK, but how do you think they react to unkempt Pentecostals walking in to church in flip flopps with a cup of coffee in their hand, sitting down and blabbering in gibberish while doing the worm between the pews?


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## Pergamum (Aug 18, 2008)

Is it the worm that they are doing?


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## Pergamum (Aug 18, 2008)

So, you think that Russain Orthodoxy is a healthy form of Christianity and no missionaries need to be sent to these 4 countries?


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## LawrenceU (Aug 18, 2008)

Each of these nations has a different situation, although some of them have similarities: the muslim nations for example. 

The fact of the matter is that all of them on the list have very weak or oppressed/persecuted orthodox churches (Not Orthodox).


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## Pergamum (Aug 18, 2008)

ok


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## Leslie (Aug 18, 2008)

Add Eritrea to your list.


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## Pilgrim (Aug 18, 2008)

TimV said:


> > I guess I mean Russian orthodox and not Greek orthodox.
> >
> > Russia, Armenia, Georgia and Serbia......all have the Gospel and enough Bibles? China, too, "has" the Gospel, at least in seed form. Every nation-state on each probably has at least one Christian...
> 
> ...



Some of the best scholarship in the world comes out of those churches? Really?


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## TimV (Aug 18, 2008)

> Some of the best scholarship in the world comes out of those churches? Really?



Yes


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## TimV (Aug 18, 2008)

> So, you think that Russain Orthodoxy is a healthy form of Christianity and no missionaries need to be sent to these 4 countries?



Pergs, I think this is either the second or third time on this thread where I've said that no, it isn't very healthy, and I would favor large numbers of conservative Presbyterian workers received by them with open arms and ears. But, no, I'd rather that they kept Pentecostals and those others I mentioned out, and I'll add Arminian Independent Baptists as well.


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## Pilgrim (Aug 18, 2008)

TimV said:


> > Some of the best scholarship in the world comes out of those churches? Really?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes



Could you provide us with some examples?


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## TimV (Aug 18, 2008)

> Could you provide us with some examples?


How familiar are you with Eastern vs. Western views of the Filioque? Or what theological issue are you interested in?

edit
I see from you profile


> I have been a member of the OPC since 2006. I have recently moved to Southeast Louisiana and am seeking membership in a baptistic church after recently reevaluating the biblical evidence on this issue.


that our interests probably won't meet on this issue.

Pergs, I honestly mean no disrespect to you, nor was I trying to belittle your vocation and sacrifice. Please believe me on this. It's just that living overseas for 10 years and seeing the damage that well meaning but historically and theologically naive Americans cause trouble that they don't even mean to, there are certain aspects of American Christianity that I just don't want to see exported, and I'm thankful to Contra Mundum for the way he expressed in on another thread today. My big job is to learn how to communicate without coming across so aggressively and arrogantly, and I am trying.


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## Pilgrim (Aug 18, 2008)

TimV said:


> > Could you provide us with some examples?
> 
> 
> How familiar are you with Eastern vs. Western views of the Filioque? Or what theological issue are you interested in?
> ...



What does our interests probably not meeting on this issue have to do with answering what is a very simple question? Can you provide recent examples of this "best Christian scholarship in the world" coming out of Eastern Orthodox churches or not? Yes or no?

Also, what do you mean by "best Christian scholarship?" Is it good scholarship in general or scholarship that is orthodox in the sense of being faithful to the text, etc.


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## Pergamum (Aug 19, 2008)

TimV said:


> > Could you provide us with some examples?
> 
> 
> How familiar are you with Eastern vs. Western views of the Filioque? Or what theological issue are you interested in?
> ...



Hey brother: 

No problem, I actually agree with 99% of what you say - I am just testing where your boundaries are and trying to figure out where some of my own boundaries are. You always have got very good insights. I also agree with most of what Contra-Mundum said today also.

I have a need to cooperate and be a little more "broad" in my fellowship here, and I am trying to figure out how broad I can be and who I can associate with. I have met one pentecostal man that was fairly sound (charismatic-lite, he only believed in healing) but I have never met a Russian or even a Greek orthodox worker that I could work with. They almost seemed to believe in a deification of man as he becomes sanctified. But maybe you have met some solid orthodox folks - I sure haven't. So, I am bouncing these ideas of you and others.


As always, I strive to be a learner. Thanks for sharpening me.


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## bookslover (Aug 20, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> 20 Muslim nations ban U.S. religious workers
> 
> 
> Brothers, pray for these nations. Also, what should be our strategy in such cases.
> ...



Not to worry. They can't throw God out of their countries!


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## Pergamum (Aug 21, 2008)

They can sure throw out God's representatives, however!


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