# Imperatives and the RPW



## elnwood (Sep 19, 2007)

One of my main hesitations with the regulative principle as applied by many on the board is that there is ambiguity regarding the imperatives of worship.

I am sympathetic to the OT/NT "dispensational" argument because the distinction between temple worship and the rest of life was made very clear in the OT, but the NT seems ambiguous. There is no Book of Order or formulation of what happens in the services in the NT like you have in the OT. I am sympathetic to Frame who believes the regulative principle should apply to all of life, not just public worship.

Many of the worship principles are from narratives, and it is difficult to say whether something in narrative is an imperative or just a statement of what happened. For example, just about everyone here believes that worshipers are to gather on Sunday. There is an imperative to gather, and there is a narrative that says that believers gathered on the first day of the week, but can we legitimately say that there is an imperative to gather on Sunday?

Also, it is not altogether clear in the epistles whether an imperative applies as part of the public worship or just an imperative in general. For example, is greeting one another an element of worship? (How about greeting with a kiss?) Many churches take that imperative and include greeting as a part of the service. Others do not. How do we know whether we should do this? Is there freedom on this point?

Some interpret the regulative principle to say that something either MUST be done or it MUST be disallowed, i.e. if solos are permitted, they must be sung. Is not observing the Lord's Supper in every worship service (morning and evening), then, a violation of the RPW?

What about footwashing? What about anointing the sick with oil? There are many imperatives that I don't see done in the Reformed churches, and I don't see clearly how they distinguish the imperatives of the NT.


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## Coram Deo (Sep 19, 2007)

Just a quick note....

I am not totally against foot washing in the worship as long as it is not considered sacrament... I am also not against considering it a part of the Lord's Supper Sacrament but not a sacrament itself.

I believe in Anointing with Oil in the Reformed Tradition from an article I read from Oceanside United Reformed Church, I forgot which pastor wrote it... James 5:13 is never in the worship service.... Notice that the sick CALL for the elders to anoint and pray over the sick... This is sick who can not make it to the church..... One's who are bedridden..... So this has no respect to the Regulative Principle.

The Kiss, I have not studied yet? So I am unsure where I stand on this.....

As per imperatives, read armourbearers comments to me in a recent thread I started on Element of Song and Imperatives.. I had a question someone asked about and I was unsure of the answer until armourbearer gave a great logical biblical answer to imperatives......




elnwood said:


> One of my main hesitations with the regulative principle as applied by many on the board is that there is ambiguity regarding the imperatives of worship.
> 
> I am sympathetic to the OT/NT "dispensational" argument because the distinction between temple worship and the rest of life was made very clear in the OT, but the NT seems ambiguous. There is no Book of Order or formulation of what happens in the services in the NT like you have in the OT. I am sympathetic to Frame who believes the regulative principle should apply to all of life, not just public worship.
> 
> ...


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## elnwood (Sep 19, 2007)

thunaer said:


> Just a quick note....
> 
> I am not totally against foot washing in the worship as long as it is not considered sacrament... I am also not against considering it a part of the Lord's Supper Sacrament but not a sacrament itself.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure we can assume that the sick are bedridden (is that inherent in the Greek word?), and I don't think the "call" necessitates exclusion from the service. At many churches, the elders ask if anyone needs prayer, and the people can "call" for them to receive prayer.

It seems to me practically that James 5:13 fits best during or around the worship service. The elders are to anoint and pray over. How often do all your elders gather? I suppose you could have anointing and prayer during an elder's meeting ...



thunaer said:


> As per imperatives, read armourbearers comments to me in a recent thread I started on Element of Song and Imperatives.. I had a question someone asked about and I was unsure of the answer until armourbearer gave a great logical biblical answer to imperatives......



I saw that. It was a good answer to the OP, but I want to expand the scope of the question.


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## elnwood (Sep 19, 2007)

elnwood said:


> There is no Book of Order or formulation of what happens in the services in the NT like you have in the OT. I am sympathetic to Frame who believes the regulative principle should apply to all of life, not just public worship.



To pick up on this, it seems that the clearest passage of what was exactly taking place in NT worship and how to order it is 1 Corinthians 14, and yet it is mostly ignored when it comes to ordering the worship service because it is so charismatic. I don't think any other NT passage is so directed towards the actual structure of how the NT service is conducted.

Which brings up an interesting side issue: I'm not a charismatic by any means, but how does RPW practice acknowledge that God commanded prophecy and tongues in worship? Where is the command to forbid those practices in worship? There's even a verse that warns against forbidding tongues.


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## Coram Deo (Sep 19, 2007)

Here is a quote from that article, it might be written by Rev. Danny Hyde (But not sure).

"Second, James speaks of the one who is “sick” (σθενε ), that is, who is “weak,” and “powerless” in the body and not just “spiritually sick.” As Douglas Moo
points out, when this word is referring to some sort of “spiritual weakness,” this is made clear with a qualifying phrase, such as “in conscience” (1 Cor. 8:7) or “in faith” (Rom. 14:1,2). In the Gospels, which seems to have influenced James the most, this word always refers to physical illness (Matt. 10:8, 25:36, 39; Mark 6:56; Luke 4:40; John 4:46, 5:3, 7, 6:2, 11:1, 2, 3, 6). As well, the verbs “save” (v. 15) and “heal” (v. 16) are used in the Gospels (e.g., cf. Matt. 9:21-22; Mark 3:4; Luke 7:50; John 11:12) to speak of physical restoration.

The term for “sick” in verse 14 is related to the word for “the one who is sick” (τ♠ν κ•µνοντα) in verse 15. This second term is only used one other time
in the New Testament, in Hebrews 12:3, where it speaks of the one who is weary and worn out. It seems clear, then, that James speaks of one who is too weak to get out of bed and attend public worship; this is why he/she must “call for the elders of the church” to have them “pray over him.” What this means is that this text prescribes anointing by the elders for all those who are seriously sick. This is in contrast both to Rome’s restriction only to the deathly ill as well as Pentecostalism’s license in having “healing services” for any kind of illness or even just for those who desire to be anointed after a worship service and prayed for. The initiative is on the sick person, not the church to have special times of anointing and healing for anyone with fatigue, stress, or a cold."




elnwood said:


> thunaer said:
> 
> 
> > Just a quick note....
> ...


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## Coram Deo (Sep 19, 2007)

If I am not mistaken there are imperatives for every single worship element that we have in worship, Song, Supper, Baptism, Prayer, Reading the Word, Hearing the Word, and Preaching the Word. Maybe I wll expound alittle more later when I have some time....

As per Tongues and Prophecy, I guess the first place to start is what was tongues? and what is prophecy?

I believe in the verse that speaks "when the perfect has come" those things mentioned Prophecy, tongues, and knowledge, will come to an end.. I believe the perfect IS the holy word, the scriptures.

I still believe there is a abiding aspect to prophecy since Psalms are Prophetic Utterances spoken by Prophets of old and preaching is a form of Prophecy but that Prophecying of future events has ceased at the end of new testament revelations....

What was tongues? Well I believe all examples of tongues was of a known language that can be interprated. This also ended at the end of the age of apostles....

Knowledge I believe refers to the knowledge that the Apostles was given by the Spirit at Pentacost. The Knowledge to write the holy scriptures.....

All three were given at Pentacost, and ended at the end of the apostles age.....





elnwood said:


> Which brings up an interesting side issue: I'm not a charismatic by any means, but how does RPW practice acknowledge that God commanded prophecy and tongues in worship? Where is the command to forbid those practices in worship? There's even a verse that warns against forbidding tongues.


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## JohnV (Sep 19, 2007)

Do I detect two different and separate emphases being suggested here? Are we making a distinction between the RPW as a control over the ritual of worship and the RPW as a corporate and personal guide to worship?


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## elnwood (Sep 20, 2007)

Hmmm, not so sure on the sick argument. If James wanted to say that a non-bedridden but physically ill person should call for the elders, how would he say it? The same way?



thunaer said:


> If I am not mistaken there are imperatives for every single worship element that we have in worship, Song, Supper, Baptism, Prayer, Reading the Word, Hearing the Word, and Preaching the Word. Maybe I wll expound alittle more later when I have some time....



Right, but when was baptism ever part of a worship service in the NT? How do we know that's an element of the worship service? And yet most Reformed churches won't ever do a baptism outside the worship service. The imperatives for prayer, Scripture reading, singing, etc. apply outside of worship too, so how do we know that they are for the worship service specifically? I know this sounds silly, but there are lots of imperatives in the NT. You're right that every element in a Reformed worship service has an imperative, but not every imperative (greeting, kissing, washing feet, anointing the sick, admonishing, etc.) is in the worship service. So how do we know?

This is my frustration -- the NT doesn't make clear which imperatives are part of the worship service or not, and the RPW depends on a clear distinction between the two.



> As per Tongues and Prophecy, I guess the first place to start is what was tongues? and what is prophecy?
> 
> I believe in the verse that speaks "when the perfect has come" those things mentioned Prophecy, tongues, and knowledge, will come to an end.. I believe the perfect IS the holy word, the scriptures.
> 
> I still believe there is a abiding aspect to prophecy since Psalms are Prophetic Utterances spoken by Prophets of old and preaching is a form of Prophecy but that Prophecying of future events has ceased at the end of new testament revelations....



I don't want to get into a debate on the nature of tongues and prophecy. My point is more that what is practiced in 1 Corinthians 14, prophesying in turn, and one "prophet" sitting down when someone has a tongue or a word, doesn't look anything like a Reformed worship service. If the pastor is "prophesying," if someone else wants to say something, the pastor stop and sit down (1 Cor. 14:30).


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## elnwood (Sep 22, 2007)

JohnV said:


> Do I detect two different and separate emphases being suggested here? Are we making a distinction between the RPW as a control over the ritual of worship and the RPW as a corporate and personal guide to worship?



John, could you elaborate on this? I was under the impression that the RPW is to be understood as the former, and not the latter.


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## JohnV (Sep 22, 2007)

elnwood said:


> JohnV said:
> 
> 
> > Do I detect two different and separate emphases being suggested here? Are we making a distinction between the RPW as a control over the ritual of worship and the RPW as a corporate and personal guide to worship?
> ...



Be glad to, Don. 

There are some presuppositions beneath the surface which I seem to detect in this thread. I've also seen it in other threads referencing the RPW as well. These preconceived ideas seem to suggest that God is pleased with one sort of ritual while not pleased with another. For example, you wrote above,


> Which brings up an interesting side issue: I'm not a charismatic by any means, but how does RPW practice acknowledge that God commanded prophecy and tongues in worship? Where is the command to forbid those practices in worship? There's even a verse that warns against forbidding tongues.


It seems to suggest that speaking in tongues is itself something which is in obedience to Scripture, while forbidding it could be against God's Word. But that misses the context of 1 Cor. altogether. God would forbid it as easily as He would command it, for speaking in tongues could itself be a good or an evil, depending upon the purpose for which it is used. 

We see that in the OT, where at one time the Psalmist says that God is pleased with sacrifices and burnt offerings, and another time that God is not pleased with sacrifices and burnt offerings. Both are indubitably true. God is not interested in ritual worship; He is interested in thanksgiving worship. A broken spirit and a contrite heart is God's pleasure. A heart that comes to Him through Christ and the Spirit, recognizing Christ's justification and the Spirit's sanctification: these are the main issues of true worship. 

The RPW means nothing if it does not direct the heart to God through Christ. If we perfect our ritual worship to the letter of God's Word, thinking that this pleases God, but neglect the fact that God sanctifies the worshiper, not the ritual, then the RPW could actually be something that the Word of God forbids instead of commands. Just as we understand the law of God under the theme of love and mercy instead of justice alone, so we must understand the commands of worship under the theme of thankfulness and gratitude instead of ritual.


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## elnwood (Sep 24, 2007)

Does anyone have something to add about how to know when a NT imperative applies to the worship service and when it doesn't? It seems so basic to the application of the Regulative Principle of Worship, and yet I don't the Scripture is clear enough that you can even distinguish whether baptism should be an element of the worship service.

In many Baptist churches, it's not an element of worship but takes place separately.


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