# Are there any OT Covenants within New Covenant?



## Dachaser (Jan 5, 2017)

Is the Covenant with Abraham/David/Moses, et al, still in effect in any way within the New Covenant, or has the New Covenant superceeded all prior ones now?


----------



## Ed Walsh (Jan 5, 2017)

Dachaser said:


> Is the Coven with Abraham/David/Moses et all still ineffect in any way within te New Covenant,



Just a few verses that came to mind which seem to teach that at least the salvific portion of the Abrahamic Covenant is still in force today. At least I don't think that the Abrahamic Covenant is just a type...

Edit: _*jwithnell* post below is much better than mine. _

Luke 19:9
And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

Acts 3:25
Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Galatians 3:9
So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Romans 4:16 (See the whole chapter)
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,


----------



## jwithnell (Jan 5, 2017)

The classic Reformed view is that we were initially given the covenant of works (obedience in Eden) then the covenant of grace which is first seen within the fall when a promise is given: He (Jesus) will bruise the serpent's head.

You can see an expansion of what God has revealed regarding His covenant from this beginning point through Noah, Abraham, et al, to its full fruition in Jesus.

While it is a continuation of the redemptive history given over a series revelations (I'd argue you can't understand Jesus' work apart from deep reflection on Abraham, Moses, etc.) it is new in that Jesus' work was once and for all rather than a continuous stream of sacrifices. The Word, and all God chose to specially reveal to us, was revealed and may be accessed through the scriptures. A promise that was once largely limited to a scruffy, obscure band of exiles is now triumphantly come to all nations.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Dachaser (Jan 5, 2017)

jwithnell said:


> The classic Reformed view is that we were initially given the covenant of works (obedience in Eden) then the covenant of grace which is first seen within the fall when a promise is given: He (Jesus) will bruise the serpent's head.
> 
> You can see an expansion of what God has revealed regarding His covenant from this beginning point through Noah, Abraham, et al, to its full fruition in Jesus.
> 
> While it is a continuation of the redemptive history given over a series revelations (I'd argue you can't understand Jesus' work apart from deep reflection on Abraham, Moses, etc.) it is new in that Jesus' work was once and for all rather than a continuous stream of sacrifices. The Word, and all God chose to specially reveal to us, was revealed and may be accessed through the scriptures. A promise that was once largely limited to a scruffy, obscure band of exiles is now triumphantly come to all nations.


 
So the Mosaic One is now over, and the ones to David/Abraham still continue and found fulfillment in the New Covenant?


----------



## Romans922 (Jan 5, 2017)

Here's the description of the New Covenant in Ezekiel.

Eze 37:24 "My servant David shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall walk in my rules and be careful to obey my statutes.
Eze 37:25 They shall dwell in the land that I gave to my servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children shall dwell there forever, and David my servant shall be their prince forever.
Eze 37:26 I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an *everlasting covenant* with them. And I will set them in their land and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore.
Eze 37:27 My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Eze 37:28 Then the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore."


The New Covenant is spoken of here v.26 as the everlasting covenant, it is the full fruition of the covenant of grace. Notice the language used, “My servant David will be King.” He’s calling us to remember the Davidic covenant that Christ will be our King forever. Same at the end of v.25, “David My servant will be their prince forever.” 

End of v.24 where we see the Mosaic Covenant, “They will walk,” who will walk My people, whom He has redeemed? V23, they will be My people and I will be their God. “They will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them.” 

V.25, “They will live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons’ sons, forever.” End of v.26, “I will place them and multiply them.” That’s the Abrahamic Covenant. 

Thus, all those main covenant administrations are fully realized in the new and everlasting covenant. Some people will say, we aren’t under the Mosaic Covenant. Of course we are, it’s right here. And over time since Adam and the Garden, the covenant of Grace has been progressively revealed to the people of God. And it comes to its fullest expression in the New Covenant as Jesus has come.



Further the Westminster Confession 7 says, 

"I. The distance between God and the creature is so great, that although reasonable creatures do owe obedience unto Him as their Creator, yet they could never have any fruition of Him as their blessedness and reward, but by some voluntary condescension on God's part, which He has been pleased to express by way of covenant.

II. The first covenant made with man was a covenant of works, wherein life was promised to Adam; and in him to his posterity, upon condition of perfect and personal obedience.

III. Man, by his fall, having made himself incapable of life by that covenant, the Lord was pleased to make a second, commonly called the covenant of grace; wherein He freely offers unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ; requiring of them faith in Him, that they may be saved, and promising to give unto all those that are ordained unto eternal life His Holy Spirit, to make them willing, and able to believe.

IV. This covenant of grace is frequently set forth in scripture by the name of a testament, in reference to the death of Jesus Christ the Testator, and to the everlasting inheritance, with all things belonging to it, therein bequeathed.

V. This covenant _[The Covenant of Grace] _was differently administered in the time of the law, and in the time of the Gospel: under the law it was administered by promises, prophecies, *sacrifices, circumcision, the paschal lamb, and other types and ordinances delivered to the people of the Jews,* all foresignifying Christ to come; which were, for that time, sufficient and efficacious, through the operation of the Spirit, to instruct and build up the elect in faith in the promised Messiah, by whom they had full remission of sins, and eternal salvation; and is called the Old Testament." [*Bold *showing those that fell under the Mosaic administration. _Italics _for my addition for clarity.].

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## jwithnell (Jan 5, 2017)

The easiest way to visualize this would be to draw a cone shape with the narrow end at the fall, then getting wider through Noah, Abraham, Moses, until it reaches its widest fruition at Jesus. As you read through the OT narative, note the coninuous use of covenant language: I will be your God, you will be my people. Promises of blessings and discipline. A mission of being fruitful and multiplying.


----------



## timfost (Jan 5, 2017)

The Noahic Covenant for sure...


----------



## Contra_Mundum (Jan 5, 2017)

"All the promises of God are "Yes" _in him," _that is in Christ, 2Cor.1:20.

Think of Jesus as the last Israelite, there are none others. He is Israel reduced to a single individual. God cut off lots of people out of his chosen nation, generation after generation, like a vine-dresser pruning. In the end, he cut them off to the last man... and left the Vine, the Branch.

There aren't any "leftover" promises from back-when. Jesus has inherited, or fulfilled, every last thing that was promised. Everlasting promises to Abraham, or Israel? Jesus has got them. All others who might have "shared" in the inheritance were, like so many, disinherited.

Understand: what God declares through Peter on Pentecost to Israel, Act.2:36, is so unutterably terrifying to the hearers because they believe they are surely about to be swept away, "What shall we do?" Later in ch.3 he tells them, "You killed the Prince of Life, and asked for a murderer to be spared--but God raised the one you denied from the dead." These are utterly chilling condemnations, promising deserved damnation

(If, along with conviction there had not followed an incredible offer of mercy, many would have probably despaired of life.)

The way to participation in the blessings of all the covenants, to which Christ is the sole Heir, is to be grafted into him, Jn.15. "He who establishes us _*in Christ*_ is God," 2Cor.1:21; we are his forever people to the glory of God, v20.

When we see the New Covenant is simply the final administration of the Covenant of Grace, previously administered under the whole raft of older forms, it clears away much confusion about how the OT--and all its covenants and signs--relates to the NT.

"Superseding," if we use a strict dictionary definition: "2. To cause to be set aside, esp. to displace as inferior or antiquated," (American Heritage College Dictionary, 1997); and compare with Heb.8:13, "In that he says, 'A new covenant," he has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away," then yes; in particular form and in certain old respects (like old wineskins) the older covenant expressions are of no effect any more.

But in other respects, the old covenant hopes are _effectual _in Christ. They aren't (and never were) tied to things and geography for the sake of such things and places; but only and always to persons of faith, and ultimate meaning (Heb.11).

Reactions: Like 5


----------



## Dachaser (Jan 6, 2017)

Contra_Mundum said:


> "All the promises of God are "Yes" _in him," _that is in Christ, 2Cor.1:20.
> 
> Think of Jesus as the last Israelite, there are none others. He is Israel reduced to a single individual. God cut off lots of people out of his chosen nation, generation after generation, like a vine-dresser pruning. In the end, he cut them off to the last man... and left the Vine, the Branch.
> 
> ...


 
So theNew Covenant is bringing to completion and fulfillment of all the prior Covenants made between God and man, so now we are under the new, better New One?


----------



## Contra_Mundum (Jan 6, 2017)

Christians in this age (since Christ's earthly mission) are all in/under the New Covenant administration of the Covenant of Grace. Not in/under any covenant-specific item or regulation or aspect of a previous administration.

If otherwise, it would be like alleging that you, David, are in/under something pertaining to the administration of the Articles of Confederation, because that administration predated the present Constitution of these United States. That idea is far-fetched, false, preposterous.

But you don't get the USConstitution we have now, without the historic precedent of the administration before it. They are related. Certain aspects of the second constitution are present as legacy of the former. And certain aspects are deliberately changed--hopefully for the better, but not infallibly.

As to the Faith, the New Covenant is infallibly better _particularly _because it is the covenant administration where the promises of the past are all met in our Savior.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## KeithW (Jan 6, 2017)

Contra_Mundum said:


> "Superseding," if we use a strict dictionary definition: "2. To cause to be set aside, esp. to displace as inferior or antiquated," (American Heritage College Dictionary, 1997); and compare with Heb.8:13, "In that he says, 'A new covenant," he has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away," then yes; in particular form and in certain old respects (like old wineskins) the older covenant expressions are of no effect any more.


Along these lines, here are some more New Testament verses about the distinction between the old/first/Mosaic covenant and the new/second/better covenant.

*First Covenant
*
The book of Hebrews calls the covenant given to Moses the _first covenant_.


Heb 8:7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. (KJV)

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away. (KJV)

Heb 9:1 Then verily the first [covenant] had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. (KJV)

Heb 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance–now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. (NIV)
*Old Covenant
*
Paul calls it the _old covenant_.


2 Cor 3:14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. (NIV)
*Names of the Second Covenant

New Covenant*


Matt 26:28 This is my blood of the [new] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. (NIV)

Mark 14:24 “This is my blood of the [new] covenant, which is poured out for many,” he said to them. (NIV)

Luke 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. (NIV)

1 Cor 11:25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." (NIV)

2 Cor 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant — not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. (NIV)

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: (KJV)

Heb 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. (NIV)

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel. (KJV)
*Second Covenant*


Heb 8:7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. (KJV)

Heb 10:8,9 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and [offering] for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure [therein]; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. (KJV)
*Better Covenant*


Heb 7:22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. (NIV)

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. (KJV)


----------



## MW (Jan 6, 2017)

KeithW said:


> The book of Hebrews calls the covenant given to Moses the _first covenant_.
> 
> 
> Heb 8:7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. (KJV)
> ...


What follows are the original notes which were printed with the 1611 AV:

Romans 9:4 covenants: Or, testaments
Galatians 3:15 covenant: Or, testament
Galatians 4:24 Covenants: Or, testaments
Hebrews 8:6 Covenant: Or, Testament
Hebrews 12:24 Covenant: Or, Testament
Hebrews 13:20 Covenant: Or, Testament

The AV translators well understood that the original Greek word can mean "covenant" (agreement) and/or "testament" (arrangement).


----------



## Dachaser (Jan 7, 2017)

Contra_Mundum said:


> Christians in this age (since Christ's earthly mission) are all in/under the New Covenant administration of the Covenant of Grace. Not in/under any covenant-specific item or regulation or aspect of a previous administration.
> 
> If otherwise, it would be like alleging that you, David, are in/under something pertaining to the administration of the Articles of Confederation, because that administration predated the present Constitution of these United States. That idea is far-fetched, false, preposterous.
> 
> ...


 
So we now have te netter spiritual blessings in Christ, such as indwelling of th eHoly Spirit, direct access now to God, Jesus as High Priest, Atonement for sin, that were not available to those under Old Covenants?


----------



## Matthew1344 (Jan 7, 2017)

Contra_Mundum said:


> "All the promises of God are "Yes" _in him," _that is in Christ, 2Cor.1:20.
> 
> Think of Jesus as the last Israelite, there are none others. He is Israel reduced to a single individual. God cut off lots of people out of his chosen nation, generation after generation, like a vine-dresser pruning. In the end, he cut them off to the last man... and left the Vine, the Branch.
> 
> ...



Can i post this on FB and tag you?


----------



## KeithW (Jan 7, 2017)

MW said:


> The AV translators well understood that the original Greek word can mean "covenant" (agreement) and/or "testament" (arrangement).


Thank you for your notes. My choice of translations was not an attempt to force a position. I had hoped that in following the Old Testament terminology used in the original post by using the NIV 1984 in a few places (the same terminology is used by the NASB and ESV) that it would be clearer that the verses I posted also talked about the same thing as what you said about the verse you posted.


----------

