# What are your true hopes for a physical healing if you are a cessationist



## earl40 (Jul 3, 2010)

This question comes to my mind because the granddaughter of our former pastor has a GBM, which is a wicked type of brain tumor.

Now of course we all would pray for grace to have the family persevere through this time of distress, but do you pray for The Lord to make the tumor disappear miraculously if you are a cessationist?


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## earl40 (Jul 3, 2010)

Joshua said:


> What has the Lord's supernatural imposition on removing a tumor have to do with cessationism? Nothing. It's the "slaying of the spirit" and "faith healing" nonsense that's a blight on modern day evangelicalism.


 
I do believe we might differ on what constitutes a real miracle. I believe if The Lord removes the tumor by "supernatural imposition" then miracles are for today and they did not end with the closing of the cannon.


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## dudley (Jul 3, 2010)

Pray for healing through faith and also pray to the Lord and His Father that "Thy Will Be Done". Faith healing is possible and the Spirit can heal the body.


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## earl40 (Jul 3, 2010)

dudley said:


> Pray for healing through faith and also pray to the Lord and His Father that "Thy Will Be Done". Faith healing is possible and the Spirit can heal the body.


 
I am stumped. Now having read a few past posts here on cessationism it appears the belief that God can perform and does perform miracles today. Where is my thinking wrong on this confessional issue?


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## Semper Fidelis (Jul 3, 2010)

I don't ever tell God how to heal someone. I would pray for the child's healing.

Just as a side note, the issue of cessationism has to do with the continuance of charismatic gifting associated with the Apostolic office and the closing of the Canon. It never posits that God's Providence stops acting in the world. The gifting of the Holy Spirit during the early Church was never, precisely, so that one only had those with a charismatic gift to deal with an issue.

I mean this in a friendly manner and not to be overly critical but the idea of praying for God's miraculous healing is typically what most people think of whenever they think about how God will work in a given situation (if He does). We always want to talk about the lady who prayed and went back and her tumor disappeared at the puzzlement of her doctors. If, however, the same woman undergoes months of chemo and radiation therapy and is delivered from death by the hands of physicians then we don't spend much time telling stories about how amazing God's provision is in providing gifts to men.

C. Everett Koop (former Surgeon General) contributed this article to Modern Reformation in the July/August 1998 issue:
Modern Reformation - Articles



> I don't know how many operations I performed in my surgical career. I know that I performed 17,000 of one particular type, and 7,000 of another. I practiced surgery for thirty-nine years, so perhaps I performed 50,000 operations. I was successful, and patients were coming to me from all over the world. And one of the things that endeared me to the parents of my patients was the way my incisions healed. No one likes big scars, but they are especially upsetting to mothers when they appear on their children. So I set out early on to make my scars small, as short and as thin as possible. These "invisible" scars became my trademark. But was I a healer?
> 
> The secret of thin scars is to make the incision precise-no feathered edges-and in the closing, to get the edges of the skin in exact apposition. I would do this by sewing the stitches inside the skin, but not through it, and the knots were tied on the bottom. All you have to figure out is how I crawled out after doing that.
> 
> ...


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## Ivan (Jul 3, 2010)

Joshua said:


> earl40 said:
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I have a friend who is a Charismatic. He says when someone is healed, it's the person healed that was given the gift of healing, not that the person praying for healing has the gift.


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## Jon 316 (Jul 3, 2010)

earl40 said:


> dudley said:
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> > Pray for healing through faith and also pray to the Lord and His Father that "Thy Will Be Done". Faith healing is possible and the Spirit can heal the body.
> ...


 
Cessationism is simply the beleif that the 'gifts' of healing and miracle workings are no longer in operation. Therefore a cessationist would not expect this gift to manifest in a believer. 

Cessationism would also reject the faulty view that 'healing is in the atonement' which causes believers to assume that 'healing is the christians birth right'.

However Cessationists do not belive that God does not and cannot perform miracles! They do not believe that believers cannot pray for God to bring about healings or other miracles. They would however submit their prayer to teh will of God. 

If one thought that they A) God could could not heal in response to prayer B) God no longer healed or performed miracles they would not be thinking about the God of the Old Testament, The God of the New Testament, nor the God of the reformers. This God is the living God who does not change. 

No need to be stumped.


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## earl40 (Jul 3, 2010)

Joshua said:


> earl40 said:
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I TOTALLY agree about the charlatans.

I remember the RC church would say to the the reformers "where are your miracles?" The reformers would say "we have miracles recorded in scripture". Now it seems to me that if The Lord did perform miracles among the reformers they would have pointed to them if they had any thus indicating they were a true church. 

Now in my doubting nature of The Lord performing real miracles today I guess you can call me a total cessionist.

Joshua have you ever seen a real miracle that was done? I have not, and I work in a hospital for the past 27 years.

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Jon 316 said:


> earl40 said:
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What stumps me is my total lack of any evidence other than stories of miracles in deepest darkest Africa done through missionaries.

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The below two quotes sort of sum up what I have encouted in the past on another reformed board.

1-"My basic reply is that I don't believe any reputable Reformed pastor or theologian would deny either the reality of miraculous healing" 

2-"As I read the Bible, the meaning of that ability was connected to the *unique* role of such healing in testifying to the reality of God's kingdom breaking into history, and the *unique authority* that *Jesus* and the *apostles* possess."

How can one assert both 1 and 2?


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## dudley (Jul 3, 2010)

*Thanks Jon..No need to be stumped*



Jon 316 said:


> earl40 said:
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If you believe any of the miraculous spiritual gifts were operative in the apostolic era only, and that some or all of those gifts gradually ceased before the end of the first century, you are a cessationist.

If you believe all the spiritual gifts described in the New Testament have continued unabated, unchanged, and unaltered since the initial outpouring of tongues at Pentecost, you are a continuationist.

Ephesians 2:18-22 (King James Version)
18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 
19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 
20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 
21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 
22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

It’s pretty hard to find a real continuationist. Absolute non-cessationists exist only at the bizarre fringe of the charismatic movement.

I am saying that God no longer intervenes in the natural world in the following ways:

a) He does not perform obvious (visible) miracles – such as the parting of the Red Sea

b) He does not intervene in ways that could not also have occurred through natural processes. 

Illnesses however do change course as the body has a remarkable ability to heal itself. And I believe God can lift the soul and spirit in a person to initiate the remarkable ability of the body to heal itself. However as I also said the prayer needs to be to Jesus as our only mediator with the Father “Thy Will Be Done”.


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## earl40 (Jul 3, 2010)

dudley said:


> Jon 316 said:
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Thank you, I thought I was alone in my belief as per your a and b above.


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## MarieP (Jul 3, 2010)

dudley said:


> b) He does not intervene in ways that could not also have occurred through natural processes.


 
What is your reasoning behind this, brother? This doesn't seem to be the mainstream cessationist position. I believe God can (still) intervene in ways that could not have occurred through natural processes. And today we would be just as amazed at it happening as people who lived in Bible times. Sure, we no longer need the sign miracles because Jesus has already come. We don't need apostles and prophets because the church has already been established (that would be "pouring concrete in the attic" as one pastor once put it).

Granted, God normally uses natural means, but what prevents us from saying that God can completely cure someone of cancer without a human explanation? (Again, this isn't Benny Hinn waving his hands over somebody while babbling.) A friend from church had some sort of brain aneurysm, and she was in church the following Sunday with no trace that anything went on. It would just as much been God's hand if she'd had surgery, but I'm not going to rule out that God can still intervene in a way that's beyond our explanation.


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## Willem van Oranje (Jul 3, 2010)

earl40 said:


> This question comes to my mind because the granddaughter of our former pastor has a GBM, which is a wicked type of brain tumor.
> 
> Now of course we all would pray for grace to have the family persevere through this time of distress, but do you pray for The Lord to make the tumor disappear miraculously if you are a cessationist?


 
Yes. "God, in his ordinary providence, maketh use of means. Yet remaineth he free to work above, without, and against them at his pleasure." from the WCF

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earl40 said:


> Joshua said:
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> > What has the Lord's supernatural imposition on removing a tumor have to do with cessationism? Nothing. It's the "slaying of the spirit" and "faith healing" nonsense that's a blight on modern day evangelicalism.
> ...


 
Earl, there is a distinction to be made here. Cessation of the specific apostolic gift of healing does not entail the cessation of any and all miraculous healing by God in answer to prayer. That is, while we do not point to anyone today as having the "gift of healing", yet God is not contrained from healing miraculously, and we are authorized, even commanded to pray for it, allthewhile acknowledging that his timing is unknown to us, and that his will ought to be done and not our will.


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## earl40 (Jul 3, 2010)

Semper Fidelis said:


> I
> C. Everett Koop (former Surgeon General)



Koop is the man.


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## Willem van Oranje (Jul 3, 2010)

earl40 said:


> Joshua said:
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If there are no supernatural miracles today, how does anyone ever come to faith in Christ?


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## MarieP (Jul 3, 2010)

Willem van Oranje said:


> If there are no supernatural miracles today, how does anyone ever come to faith in Christ?


 
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why are we to suppose that God doesn't do in the physical realm what He does in the spiritual (as if they are entirely separate from one another)?

BTW- the term "miracle": I thought that "miracles" were specifically those signs that God performed through the apostles and prophets to validate their ministries and make certain statements regarding redemptive history? As opposed to God's extra-ordinary works of providence...


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## earl40 (Jul 3, 2010)

MarieP said:


> dudley said:
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> > b) He does not intervene in ways that could not also have occurred through natural processes.
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Now if your friend had an angiogram before and after I might be persuaded. Once again I have worked in a hospital for 27 years and the total absence of any verified miracles has left me skeptical as has the former Surgeon General.

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MarieP said:


> Willem van Oranje said:
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> > If there are no supernatural miracles today, how does anyone ever come to faith in Christ?
> ...



They are separate but not the same. The verification of being born again is all over the place with believers but physical miraculous healings are rare if not absent.


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## Peairtach (Jul 3, 2010)

I think that it's the _gift_ of healing that cessationists believe has ended.

God can respond to the prayers of his people by using natural or supernatural means.

Obviously miracles must remain rare otherwise they wouldn't be miracles. And God is free to say "Yes", "No" or "Later".

Cessationism is more realistic because it is in line with Scripture. "Faith-healing", Pentecostalism and people saying they have the gift of healing brings dishonour on the name of Christ and damages Christ's cause and kingdom.


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## Ivan (Jul 3, 2010)

Joshua said:


> Ivan said:
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I know. I was trying to make the same point. Those who think they have the gift of healing, don't. Although it may be rare, there are times, I believe, when God heals a person, but it is *GOD* who does it, no person.


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## earl40 (Jul 3, 2010)

Richard Tallach said:


> Obviously miracles must remain rare otherwise they wouldn't be miracles. .



A miracle is not defined by its being rare as evidenced by the blaze or numerous miracles performed by Our Lord in His ministry. 

Just saying.


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## MarieP (Jul 3, 2010)

earl40 said:


> Richard Tallach said:
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That's was only a 3-year-period of time, though, in one geographic region. It was the most concentrated time of miracles, since it was the fulfillment of thousands of years of God's promises. Miracles were not as common as we tend to think. We forget that the Bible took place over several thousand years.


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## Jared (Jul 3, 2010)

Many times when I pray for healing, I pray for God's kingdom to come in that particular circumstance. I believe that when we pray for God's kingdom to come, we are praying for God's perfect will to be done in that circumstance.

There is no sickness in the kingdom of God. That doesn't negate the fact that God ordains everything that happens including sickness. God is at work in our fallen world bringing His kingdom. But even in places where His kingdom has not yet come, He is still at work and He is still sovereign. 

God's kingdom is the perfect will of God. The way that I see it, everything else is in His hidden will. God's will is never thwarted. As Martin Luther says, even though all things happen as they are predestined to happen, we shouldn't concern ourselves too much with what is predestined because we don't know what God has predestined.

Hope that helps.


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## Galatians220 (Jul 3, 2010)

Praying for the little girl mentioned in the OP. *May the Lord be pleased to heal her, and may He receive all the glory.* (If this is a glioblastoma multiforme, which kids I've known have had, then I'm stepping up the prayers.)

The Lord knows the end from the beginning, and we can always take comfort in that.

I pray that this little girl *will* be healed for the Lord's glory, and to spare her family the sorrow of losing her!



Margaret


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## earl40 (Jul 3, 2010)

Galatians220 said:


> Praying for the little girl mentioned in the OP. *May the Lord be pleased to heal her, and may He receive all the glory.* (If this is a glioblastoma multiforme, which kids I've known have had, then I'm stepping up the prayers.)
> 
> The Lord knows the end from the beginning, and we can always take comfort in that.
> 
> ...


 
I will pray The Lord heals her through "ordinary" means of her visiting her doctors and the loving tender care her friends and family will no doubt give her. If The Lord chooses to take her into His presences so be it, for The Lord gives and He takes away. 

Not to sound like a prig but I have found that when I pray in this way my prayers are always answered within His will and even when I don't "like" the answer I am comforted knowing He is control. This is where an eternal perspective is vital to continue on in this veil of tears. As a side note I can honestly say even when my children were diagnosed with CF I "sort of knew" it would be wrong to pray for the defective gene in their chromosomes to be fixed. Not to say I didn't ask but I knew He would not "work a miracle". Now in His providence He provided me with a wife that is UNBELIEVABLE in how she watches over them. I hope she does not hurt her neck when that crown is placed upon her head in glory.


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## moselle (Jul 3, 2010)

I've told a WoF friend that all true Believers are promised healing - either through God's miraculous intervention, through the use of medicine or surgery, or through death and glorification. Since we don't know God's perfect plan, it is right to pray for healing and have faith to know that it WILL come, although perhaps not always in the way we'd prefer. I also mentioned that regardless of the current sickness we are aware of, our bodies are always sick and in decay. We can praise God for his glorious promise to us that someday we will know what a truly healed body is.


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## Jared (Jul 3, 2010)

moselle said:


> I've told a WoF friend that all true Believers are promised healing - either through God's miraculous intervention, through the use of medicine or surgery, or through death and glorification. Since we don't know God's perfect plan, it is right to pray for healing and have faith to know that it WILL come, although perhaps not always in the way we'd prefer. I also mentioned that regardless of the current sickness we are aware of, our bodies are always sick and in decay. We can praise God for his glorious promise to us that someday we will know what a truly healed body is.



I've said the same thing to WoF people. They usually don't like that very much.


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## Ivan (Jul 3, 2010)

moselle said:


> I've told a WoF friend that all true Believers are promised healing - either through God's miraculous intervention, through the use of medicine or surgery, or through death and glorification. Since we don't know God's perfect plan, it is right to pray for healing and have faith to know that it WILL come, although perhaps not always in the way we'd prefer. I also mentioned that regardless of the current sickness we are aware of, our bodies are always sick and in decay. We can praise God for his glorious promise to us that someday we will know what a truly healed body is.


 
Biblical and logical.


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## Ivan (Jul 3, 2010)

Joshua said:


> Ivan said:
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Not a problem.


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## LawrenceU (Jul 4, 2010)

I've been reading this thread. I am a cessationist regarding revelation and apostolic gifts. However, I cannot deny that God still goes outside of our understanding of natural law and processes and performs 'miracles'. Not only is there no Scriptural basis to deny that he can and will do that as it fits his decrees; I have witnessed it first hand. No, I'm not talking about someone being healed of a headache either. I don't know if I shall witness it again. But, I give thanks to God for what I have seen him do against all natural law and explanation. That does not mean that I think that God is bound to do that at all times. It means that I have come to believe that we cannot expect to fully comprehend how and why God will work in every occasion.


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## Iconoclast (Jul 4, 2010)

Earl,
Pray for healing for this girl according to God's will. God could have prevented this tumor in the first place.
He has allowed it to happen for His own purpose. It involves the girl ,her family, and friends, church members , medical staff,
God has a reason and purpose in allowing trials in our lives. as others have spoken about in His providence to us ,in the fallen and sin cursed world
Remember Paul wrote: Trophimus I left in Miletus...sick


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## earl40 (Jul 4, 2010)

LawrenceU said:


> I have witnessed it first hand. No, I'm not talking about someone being healed of a headache either.



May we ask?

I used to love to play golf and I never had the pleasure of seeing a hole in one first hand either though I do believe they happen.


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## LawrenceU (Jul 4, 2010)

earl40 said:


> LawrenceU said:
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Yes, you may ask Somewhere on the PB is a more detailed account of this incident, the most graphic that I have seen.

I served as a pastor in a small town in Kansas. Near that town was a ministry ranch that worked with delinquent boys from inner city areas. One afternoon several of these boys were returning from town and the truck that they were driving was t-boned by a semi. I rushed to the scene and arrived as the ambulance arrived. One of the boys had been thrown hard. He was lying unconscious with a compound to his femur, several lacerations, and other damage congruent with such an impact. I was one of the first people to him. I cut off his shirt looking for the source of a bleeder. When I did so there was already a large hematoma on his abdomen. He was in bad shape. A helo was called in to transport him to the hospital. Because of the shortage of ambulances I was asked to transport the least banged up boy. (I've had a fair bit of emergency medical training and experience.) On the way we prayed for all of the boys concerned.

When I arrived at the hospital I dropped my boy off and went to the trauma area. (They were used to me roaming around. I served as a chaplain there.) I saw some of the flight crew. I asked them where the boy was. They said, 'Oh, the one we wasted the trip on. . .' My heart sank. I knew Ben's body was badly damaged. I'd seen people with less damage not make it. Those thoughts flashed in an instant. '. . . he's in there.' He pointed to the ready room. I was confused to say the least.' I went into the room and sitting there was Ben reading a magazine. I was floored. He was perfectly fine, as if the wreck had never occurred. He said that he woke up in the helo as they were unlocking him and asked what was going on. The only thing he remembered was seeing the truck running at them and then waking up. Needless to say there was a lot of joy in that ready room. The flight crew and I were stunned and joyful.

That incident took place about 13 years ago. The last I heard Ben was a godly father in Fresno.


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## Meginomai (Jul 4, 2010)

I have a contribution to the nature of miracles:

"Miracles do not, in fact, break the laws of nature." - C.S. Lewis

More on the above is developed by Bahnsen and more recently, John Frame, such as here (you have to open each of his responses to Martin and see the sections of "Science"):

Reformed Apologetics


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## LawrenceU (Jul 4, 2010)

Meginomai said:


> I have a contribution to the nature of miracles:
> 
> "Miracles do not, in fact, break the laws of nature." - C.S. Lewis
> 
> ...


 

I agree. That is why I wrote, 'our understanding of natural law.'


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## Mushroom (Jul 4, 2010)

I've seen lots of miracles by God's hand. Dead people of every type brought to life. Even myself. That He would save even one vile sinner who in his dead state was a mocking enemy of the one true God is an amazing miracle, and He has performed that miracle multitudes of times over. Praise His glorious name!


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## earl40 (Jul 4, 2010)

Meginomai said:


> I have a contribution to the nature of miracles:
> 
> "Miracles do not, in fact, break the laws of nature." - C.S. Lewis
> 
> ...


 
I am having a hard time finding what you are referencing. Real quick....are you speaking about the nature of God or His natural creation?


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## Peairtach (Jul 4, 2010)

earl40 said:


> Richard Tallach said:
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> > Obviously miracles must remain rare otherwise they wouldn't be miracles. .
> ...



Yes, but if miracles did become too common, they would lose some of their power to astound.

Of course if you think about any aspect of the natural world for long enough you can see a miraculous quality in it, but this is not what we're talking about.

Miracles are by definition not common events which means that the naturalist who denies miracles because they seem so unlikely doesn't have a leg to stand on. Of course miracles are unlikely/rare events. 

If they happened on a frequent enough basis they would lose some of their power as miracles, and if they happened regularly enouigh they could be classed as laws of nature.

Miracles weren't occurring regularly among God's people throughout the Biblical period, but tend to be "clumped around"/related to, revelatory periods.


To have too many miracles happening throughout the period from Christ's First Advent to the Eschaton, would distract from the miracles of God's Word and Christ's Resurrection (see the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus), the spiritual miracle of the New Birth - as Brad points out - and Sanctification, would also be an easy way out for God's people from their health troubles when God uses these to sanctify them, and would not encourage the development of medical science as part of the ongoing Cultural Mandate in relieving the Curse.


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## MarieP (Jul 4, 2010)

earl40 said:


> Meginomai said:
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> > I have a contribution to the nature of miracles:
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I believe he means the nature of God's creation. The nature of God's creation is that it is upheld by the word of His power. Nature obeys the will of God.

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LawrenceU said:


> Not only is there no Scriptural basis to deny that he can and will do that as it fits his decrees; I have witnessed it first hand.


 
Brother, thanks for sharing that account! Praise God...may what happened that day be used to bring much glory and honor to Christ!

I too have an account of experiencing this first-hand. My first year of college, I was living in the freshman dorms, and I had come down with a bad cold. I decided to take some medicine for it, so I took a vitamin and an antihistimine (which I now suspect I am allergic to). I went to bed after deciding not to put away the laundry I had just done that evening. I woke up around midnight and got up and walked across the hallway to the bathroom. As I left the bathroom, I suddenly became very dizzy. Last thing I remember is falling face first toward a drain in the uncarpeted, concrete hallway floor.

Next thing I know, I am lying face down in my laundry basket full of clothes in my dorm room. I got up, expecting to be in all kinds of pain, but to my amazement I was not. I did not have a bump on my head, not a bruise on my body. And I'm among those who get bruises fairly easily. You'd think that face-first toward a drain in an uncarpeted floor would cause some damage! I asked my roommate and my neighbors if they'd found me and brought me into my room, and they said no they hadn't. To this day, I don't know exactly how God got me there, but He did, and unscathed too! Praise God for the full laundry basket as well!


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## Semper Fidelis (Jul 5, 2010)

Just to add something to this discussion, I think we need to carefully distinguish what we mean by the word "miracle". Two people can use the same word but they're pouring completely different meanings into the word.

Some call a miracle anything that we cannot fully explain. The amazing process by which a human baby develops in the womb of a mother completely rearranging her organs, smashing them up and making it hard to sing hymns, is amazing. Watching that same child come out of the womb and the joy of a father and mother seeing their child for the first time is amazing. Some would call this whole thing a "miracle". 

I heard a man say just Saturday that if we doubt that God performs miracles then we should stop and watch a bird.

By this definition, everything is a miracle. Beloved, we don't fully comprehend *anything* in this world. We might deceive ourselves that we can scientifically describe predictable phenomena but we never fully know anything as God knows nor how it all works together. We all are held to the ground by gravity but don't understand it.

If, however, everything we cannot explain is a miracle, then is this really a useful word or does it simply betray that we want to use a word in special circumstances because we can't explain it and deceive ourselves that we chalk other things up to the "laws of nature"?

I really think everyone should read Calvin on Providence from his Institutes and you'll start to get a sense for how often we ought to be thanking the Lord for everything that He superintends and governs. What we're really after in all of this is an acknowledgement that, if anything comes to pass, it's from the hand of God.

Enter the word "miracle" as it is used in the Scriptures. Again, the Scriptures acknowledge, everywhere, God's superintendence of whatsoever comes to pass. At times in redemptive history, however, God performs _signs_ and _wonders_ through His prophets. He has, in history, gifted men for purposes related to bearing witness at a moment in redemptive history.

The word miracle is a translation for when the Scriptures use the terms signs and wonders. When we encounter miracles in the Scriptures they are not merely to draw attention to the fact that God can or does do things in the world. That's manifest throughout the Scriptures. The question concerning these signs and wonders (miracles) is what are they signifiying? What are they pointing to? 

Christ often condemned the crowds for coming to seek Him as a show pony or sugar daddy. In John 6, He reminds everyone that His signs of feeding thousands weren't to simply make everyone marvel that He has power but to point to Him as the bread of life.

The pagan approach to signs and wonders is to worship the power of God and manipulate it to one's ends (entertainment, healing on demand, etc) but it does not worship God as He is.

Consequently, I would gently suggest that it is perfectly appropriate to praise God for the "mundane" unexplainable things that He accomplishes through normal Providence (healing of wounds, birth of babies, birds at windows, the power of a thunderstorm) and to give praise to God for the "extraordinary" unexplainable things that He accomplishes through Providence (cancers that disappear, men that get in horrible accidents and leave without a scratch). It's not "sexy" but Providence simply means that God controls all things.

If we're talking about "miracles", however, then this is Biblically reserved (signs and wonders) for things that point to a moment in redemptive history where God is teaching us something.

I don't die on any hill for a word and usually know what someone is referring to when they use the term miracle in a way that I wouldn't use it but I simply desire that more give thought to how amazing God's Providence is and we wouldn't have to use terms that pretend that God's superintendence is not worthy of worship except in extraordinary circumstances. As far as I'm concerned, everything outside of Hell is grace and is extraordinary.


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## torstar (Jul 5, 2010)

earl40 said:


> dudley said:
> 
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> > Pray for healing through faith and also pray to the Lord and His Father that "Thy Will Be Done". Faith healing is possible and the Spirit can heal the body.
> ...


 


nothing wrong with believing in the power of direct prayer for healing. 

i have seen a few individuals incredibly healed after some serious prayer circles formed by the ordained. and many more not.

this is not the same as declaring one has the gift of healing on demand.


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## AThornquist (Jul 5, 2010)

I only believe that healing is genuine if a tattooed maniac screaming "BOOMBA!" roundhouse kicks a little old lady in the face with his steel-toed boots.


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## earl40 (Jul 5, 2010)

Semper Fidelis said:


> Consequently, I would gently suggest that it is perfectly appropriate to praise God for the "mundane" unexplainable things that He accomplishes through normal Providence (healing of wounds, birth of babies, birds at windows, the power of a thunderstorm) and to give praise to God for the "extraordinary" unexplainable things that He accomplishes through Providence (cancers that disappear, men that get in horrible accidents and leave without a scratch). It's not "sexy" but Providence simply means that God controls all things.
> 
> If we're talking about "miracles", however, then this is Biblically reserved (signs and wonders) for things that point to a moment in redemptive history where God is teaching us something.



Thank you I enjoyed and used to agree....now I am not so certain after reading about the experience that Lawrence had with the you boy in the car wreck. That was nothing short of a miracle in the proper sense.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jul 5, 2010)

earl40 said:


> Semper Fidelis said:
> 
> 
> > Consequently, I would gently suggest that it is perfectly appropriate to praise God for the "mundane" unexplainable things that He accomplishes through normal Providence (healing of wounds, birth of babies, birds at windows, the power of a thunderstorm) and to give praise to God for the "extraordinary" unexplainable things that He accomplishes through Providence (cancers that disappear, men that get in horrible accidents and leave without a scratch). It's not "sexy" but Providence simply means that God controls all things.
> ...


 
How so (granting the definition of "signs" and "wonders")? In other words, we can all agree and heartily thank God for an amazing act of Divine intervention but in what sense was the boy's life saved to point to some moment in Redemptive History? What did the "sign" or "wonder" signify?

Again, if someone wants to call the saving of the boy's life a "miracle" then I'm not going to die on that hill. Nevertheless, they are using the term differently than the translated Biblical term where "sign" and "wonder" are used.


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## earl40 (Jul 5, 2010)

Semper Fidelis said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> > Semper Fidelis said:
> ...


 
I agree of course that IF we assign the word miracle to only be a sign to point to some moment in Redemptive History. I simply was referring to the parameters listed in General Koop's article. To tell you the truth this is as close to a real breaking in of God working outside of natural processes in working the healing of someone. Of course maybe He has done so to others I have come in contact with, but the point I made earlier about the RC Church against the reformers, who seemed to have no miracles to show, may be an interesting topic of discussion.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jul 5, 2010)

It doesn't appear we are communicating well. There is no such thing as a "natural process" that occurs apart from God and requires that He "break into it". 

Also, my point about the use of the word is in reference to how Scripture refers to signs and wonders. This is especially relevant given the context of this discussion.


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## torstar (Jul 5, 2010)

Semper Fidelis said:


> It doesn't appear we are communicating well. There is no such thing as a "natural process" that occurs apart from God and requires that He "break into it".
> 
> Also, my point about the use of the word is in reference to how Scripture refers to signs and wonders. This is especially relevant given the context of this discussion.


 


true, but Hezekiah pleaded for and got another 15 years (during which he fathered the worst king of them all, until he repented)


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## Semper Fidelis (Jul 6, 2010)

torstar said:


> Semper Fidelis said:
> 
> 
> > It doesn't appear we are communicating well. There is no such thing as a "natural process" that occurs apart from God and requires that He "break into it".
> ...


 
I'm confused as to the relevance of your "but" here. Moses parted the Red Sea, water came out of rocks, clothes did not wear out, manna came from heaven, etc. All this and the people hardened their hearts so God swore, in His wrath, they shall not enter my rest. This really has nothing to do with whether any of these are "signs" or "wonders". The response of a hard heart to the things of God does not change the nature of the things of God.


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## LawrenceU (Jul 6, 2010)

Rich, I think the point you made above is very important. For some reason most Christians long to see miracles / signs and wonders. I am not sure why. The people who saw the most miracles / signs and wonders in all of history consistently rejected the one giving them the signs and wonders. This is something that must be remembered. It is not the view of a miracle that brings faith. It is only the working of the Holy Spirit upon the heart of man.

I love the fact that our God is not bound by our understanding of natural law. I love the fact that he can and does heal, supply, and otherwise meet the needs of people outside of the 'normal' chain of events at times. (There are times I wish it were more often.) But, none of those can bring new birth.


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## torstar (Jul 6, 2010)

Semper Fidelis said:


> torstar said:
> 
> 
> > Semper Fidelis said:
> ...


 

so you like to analyze things after the fact and say that is what God meant in the long run.

when people are living in real time and have incredible burdens and have to make immediate decisions it's a different ball game.

and although it is God's sovereign will that horrendous things happen on this earth, I take less than perfect comfort as they are going on. 

when the techs and surgeon huddled during my MRI and talked quietly for 20 minutes, my view on healing by prayer changed dramatically. 

then it went back to the prior state after all was okay.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jul 6, 2010)

torstar said:


> Semper Fidelis said:
> 
> 
> > torstar said:
> ...


 
I have no idea how you drew your conclusions above from anything I wrote so I really don't know how to reply to this.


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## earl40 (Jul 6, 2010)

Semper Fidelis said:


> It doesn't appear we are communicating well. There is no such thing as a "natural process" that occurs apart from God and requires that He "break into it".
> 
> Also, my point about the use of the word is in reference to how Scripture refers to signs and wonders. This is especially relevant given the context of this discussion.


 
Did you read the article by Koop here? I thought he did a fine job of communicating what I mean by what a miracle is.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jul 6, 2010)

earl40 said:


> Semper Fidelis said:
> 
> 
> > It doesn't appear we are communicating well. There is no such thing as a "natural process" that occurs apart from God and requires that He "break into it".
> ...


 
I posted it. Koop does not define "miracle" any differently than I have. For example:



> Soon after the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus himself began to perform miracles. And those miracles, no doubt, authenticated Christ's claims and his mission. Thereafter, he invested his twelve apostles with these same healing capabilities in order to authenticate this "new" religion, which we call Christianity. But after serving their purpose, these gifts ceased. With the completion of the canon of Scripture, the total revelation of God has been given (that is, not all that can be known about God, but all that God has decided to let us in on).





> Miracles, then, were the credentials of Christ and the apostles, to whom he gave the gift of healing. And one can assume, I think, that the cessation of these gifts came at the end of the apostolic age.



In the words of Inigo Montoya: "This word you keep using. I don't think it means what you think it means."


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## earl40 (Jul 6, 2010)

Semper Fidelis said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> > Semper Fidelis said:
> ...



I do understand....believe it or not. Koop wrote....."But after serving their purpose, these gifts *ceased*." and here "I think, that the *cessation* of these gifts came at the end of the apostolic age." in the article Koop appears to hedge a tad by using the word regularly inferring that God every now and then does indeed work outside of "Ordinary Providence" as evidenced by this "but he *does not regularly* do so in a miraculous way."

Now I do understand the sign gifts were performed to credential that Jesus and the Apostles were of God. Now in stating this I had hoped the original question that started this post would have been understood that maybe God works outside of *ordinary* providential means to paraphrase Dr. Koop. I teeter on this issue because of credible examples (LawrenceU) in that The Lord does indeed do "miracles" that verify that the healing is from Him and Him alone.....because I do believe that the devil and his minions cannot heal a broken femur in the time of a short helicopter flight. For if LawrenceU is correct, and I see no reason to believe his story is not true, then in my mind God did indeed perform a healing outside of ordinary providential means.


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## SolaScriptura (Jul 6, 2010)

AThornquist said:


> I only believe that healing is genuine if a tattooed maniac screaming "BOOMBA!" roundhouse kicks a little old lady in the face with his steel-toed boots.


 
Now THAT'S what I'm talking about!!!


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## Semper Fidelis (Jul 6, 2010)

earl40 said:


> For if LawrenceU is correct, and I see no reason to believe his story is not true, then in my mind God did indeed perform a healing outside of ordinary providential means.


Of course I believe Lawrence and believe that God performed an extraordinary healing. My only point (and it may seem pointless at this point) is that I'm fine with someone calling it a miracle but, strictly speaking, it wouldn't serve the same purpose that God used signs and wonders in the Scriptures. I imagine people have been praying for God's extraordinary provision or healing as long as men have been calling on the name of the Lord. I also believe, because God is good to His people, that He has often answered those prayers.

My daughter almost died at birth and we found the next day she had suffered 3 strokes just prior to birth. I can tell you of Providences that saved her life and my thankfulness for it. I can also testify to the excitement of our Pediatric Neurologist when the lesions on her brain were undetectable at 7 months. I'm fine with someone calling it a miracle. The word itself doesn't diminish or add to the gratefulness I have to God for preserving her life and healing her by a means that it is too fearful and wonderful for me to explain.


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## earl40 (Jul 6, 2010)

Semper Fidelis said:


> earl40 said:
> 
> 
> > For if LawrenceU is correct, and I see no reason to believe his story is not true, then in my mind God did indeed perform a healing outside of ordinary providential means.
> ...



Below sums up it pretty good for me...I see a hedging of the terms by saying if a miracle is normative or not. For in my mind the frequency or time does not limit if God does something outside of ordinary means. To "change" the definition for sake of discussion I would like to replace the word miracle with "God doing something outside of ordinary means" like changing water into wine or replacing the eyes that have shriveled up in their sockets. To say God did indeed work outside of ordinary means *even if it is rare* must say what.....that the person doing such is from God or at least the healing was from The Lord Himself. In other words, if God did "do something outside of ordinary means" outside the closure of the cannon then the miracle only attest it was from Him and nothing else.

From John MacArthur....Charismatic Chaos - By John MacArthur


*I too now believe that dead people are literally being raised in the world today.* As soon as I say that, some ask if I believe if it is normative? I doubt if it would be normative in any local situation but it probably is normative in terms of the universal Body of Christ. Even though it is an extremely uncommon event I would not be surprised if it were happening several times a year. 

*If you are going to say that God is doing miracles today, and be Biblically consistent*, you are going to have to say that, "God is also. . . " What? Giving what? Revelation. And if God is giving revelation, it will be coming through the people who are what? Doing the miracles. And I will say this for the Charismatics, they are at least logically consistent in that sense. They have got the whole package--God is giving revelation. He is still giving it. The people who are getting it have miracle power in their view. And what is the next logical step? To call them . . . what? Apostles. And that is what they are doing.


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