# tattoo



## Batman (Jun 10, 2005)

Is there anything in scripture (taking nothing out of context) that would argue against getting a tattoo?


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## LadyFlynt (Jun 10, 2005)

I believe so, but give me time to find it again...


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## tdowns (Jun 10, 2005)

I've often wondered about that myself.


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## Augusta (Jun 10, 2005)

Leviticus 19:28

28 You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the LORD.


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## Batman (Jun 10, 2005)

What is the context of Lev. 19:28? What is cutting your flesh for the dead?


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## tdowns (Jun 10, 2005)

*Leviticus*

It also talks about cutting your hair a certain way, so that seems to be relevant to that time only.


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## Augusta (Jun 10, 2005)

The title of the passage in NKJV is "moral and ceremonial laws." The same passage talks about not prostituting your daughter, keeping reverence on the sabbath, not regarding mediums or familiar spirits. It is a mixed bag of do's and don'ts for the Jews.


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## tdowns (Jun 10, 2005)

*Leviticus*

"œYou shall not eat any flesh with the blood in it. You shall not interpret omens or tell fortunes. 27 You shall not round off the hair on your temples or mar the edges of your beard. 28 You shall not make any cuts on your body for the dead or tattoo yourselves: I am the Lord.


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## Augusta (Jun 10, 2005)

I have no idea by the way how this effects us today but personally for me I would not get a tattoo just because it is obvious God didn't like them then and He does not change. 

The beard reference is addressing something that was going on at the time. It sounds like some particular marring they were doing. Who knows what it was. We all know what a tattoo is though.

Just my two totally prissy cents.


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## Batman (Jun 10, 2005)

I'm wondering if making cuts on your body for the dead is connected to "tattooing yourselves." Why were the Israelites making cuts on their body for the dead? Were they also tatooing themselves for the dead? Is that what this verse is implying?


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## Augusta (Jun 10, 2005)

If you read ahead to chapter 21 even the Levite priests were not allowed to serve in the temple if they had any kind of marring or defect in their skin. Even a scab or rash. 

16 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 
17 "Speak to Aaron, saying: "No man of your descendants in succeeding generations, who has any defect, may approach to offer the bread of his God. 
18 For any man who has a defect shall not approach: a man blind or lame, who has a marred face or any limb too long, 
19 a man who has a broken foot or broken hand, 
20 or is a hunchback or a dwarf, or a man who has a defect in his eye, or eczema or scab, or is a eunuch. 
21 No man of the descendants of Aaron the priest, who has a defect, shall come near to offer the offerings made by fire to the LORD. He has a defect; he shall not come near to offer the bread of his God. 
22 He may eat the bread of his God, both the most holy and the holy; 
23 only he shall not go near the veil or approach the altar, because he has 
a defect, lest he profane My sanctuaries; for I the LORD sanctify them."'

The Lord will not reject his people if they have a defect but I can't see purposefully giving yourself a defect or marring yourself knowing that it does not please God. Even if we think it looks cool or nice, we want to please God not man right?


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## tdowns (Jun 10, 2005)

*Plastic surgery*

What about Plastic surgery? For cosmetic purposes. It's practically a req. here in California.

What about tatto for eyeliner (I think girls do this)?

What about temporary tattoos for the kids?


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## Batman (Jun 10, 2005)

So...are these verses, (Lev. 19) if taken in context, referring to the priests? Lev. 21: 16-23 refers to physical defects...and it is speaking directly to the priests. As far as a tattoo displeasing God...I'm not completely convinced that getting a tatoo would cause God to be displeased, UNLESS, the reference in Lev. 19 applies to us. That's where I'm stuck...and I still don't understand what making cuts upon your body is all about.


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## Batman (Jun 10, 2005)

Revolver...your bicep implants look phenomenal...you have no argument from me!


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## BobVigneault (Jun 10, 2005)

"But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh."

I believe the argument against tatoos is an intrinsic argument from the many verses condemning the worship of the creature and boastful pride. Getting a tatoo is a way of saying "Hey, look at me, I'm tough, I'm cool." It is an encouragement to glory in the flesh and not in the Lord. 

Furthermore, they have long been associated with the rebellious and decadent. Even tatoo 'artists?" are upset now because tatoos are losing their counter culture stigma.

It is taking a mark upon your body by which you are trying to show our allegiance to something or communicate something about yourselve that you think is important. We must ask, what are we trying to communicate, what are we lacking, are we compensating for something? Tatoos send a variety of messages that may be beyond your ability to control.

In my humble opinion, tatoos are a dirty, filthy practice and I believe a slap in the face to God who has given us his mark, the Holy Spirit and who has given us some of his own INVISIBLE attributes. Futhermore, piercings on men are an acquiescence to the feminization of America. My advice: DON'T DO IT!

Real men don't need tatoos to prove they are tough; they don't need anything pierced to prove they can endure pain. Let God be the one you glory in, let God be the defender of your reputation. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of you mind.


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## New wine skin (Jun 10, 2005)

Please dont get a tattoo, you will regret it.

I got a tattoo of my greek letters when I was 18 and reprobate. Wish i had never done that.... the more I think about it, the more I realize how childish I was for getting a tattoo... I dont mean to antagonize anyone, but a tattoo amounts to a way of building up a persons identity or self esteem about themselves.... to feel like they belong. That s why I did it... I am being honest. Now my identity is in Christ. I sincerely hope people wanting a tattoo will remember to honor their body as a clay vessel that is indwelt with Holy Spirit and not do it.


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## BobVigneault (Jun 10, 2005)

Scott, your tender encouragement reminded me that I may have let emotions get the best of me and I sounded a bit harsh in my rant against tatoos. I apologize to any who have gotten tatoos who I may have offended by suggesting that you are in rebellion.

My convictions are strong against tatoos but they are just my convictions and I'm not trying to bring the weight of scripture against my brothers and sisters who may have gotten a tatoo.


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## Batman (Jun 10, 2005)

"It is taking a mark upon your body by which you are trying to show our allegiance to something or communicate something about yourselve that you think is important. We must ask, what are we trying to communicate, what are we lacking, are we compensating for something? Tatoos send a variety of messages that may be beyond your ability to control."
(I don't know how to put the square around a quote).

Bob...I agree with most of what you said. It's something I've definitely thought through. But, if we follow that line of reasoning, then we should also take off our Dodger caps, Nike's, and Nordstrom ties because these all convey a message that show our allegiance to something earthly. I realize tatoos are permanent, whereas a t-shirt can be taken off, but wearing a Yankee cap communicates our alligiance to something we think is important.


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## Batman (Jun 10, 2005)

I guess my point is...what the difference between getting a tattoo of the Dodger "D" and wearing a Dodger cap around? They're both saying you identify with a team...that's it.


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## turmeric (Jun 10, 2005)

I think these Scriptures referred to practices of the times which related to idol worship, the prophets of baal in the Book of Kings did this to invoke their false god.

I think (though not dogmatically) that the modern application would be not to tattoo or cut your hair in a way consistent with modern practices of witchcraft or homosexuality or promiscuity. I realise this presents us with several of these;


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## BobVigneault (Jun 10, 2005)

You answered your own question Danny. You can take off your cap or sweatshirt. But to commit your God given flesh to the allegiance of another is quite a diferent subject.

I have a young friend, an unbeliever who regularly considers suicide. He has numerous tatoos. His often repeated saying is, "Well, I think it's time to get some ink therapy done".

I believe like his practice goes back to Adam and Eve attempt to atone for there sins. Deep inside we all still feel the need to atone for our sin. Piercing the flesh is one of those means by which the hurting seek self-atonement. That is my conclusion from watching so many put themselves through this.


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## Texas Aggie (Jun 10, 2005)

"And hath made us kings and priests unto God..." Revelation 1:6. This is what God is going to accomplish with us. You are part of a royal priesthood in Christ. Via the elect, He has made kings as well as priests for His glory and dominion.

Please don't relegate His law as only belonging to the Jews... if it is good enough for them, you can bet its good enough for you.

Cutting your flesh is self-mutilation (this is a spiritual concern). The world of the dead is very interested in your defilement. Tattoos are also not in accord with the law of God (whether you are a priest or a king... makes no difference).


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## john_Mark (Jun 10, 2005)

I almost got a tattoo. I saw Derek Webb's Five Sola's tattoo and thought it would cool to have a "Soli Deo Gloria" tattoo on my shoulder. I just couldn't bring myself to do it once I thought about whether getting a tattoo would be the most God honoring thing to do. I do enough things in my life that are not God honoring and I didn't want to potentially add one to the list. Especially, one that would be there on a daily reminder.

A friend of mine did, however, get several tattoos. A few people on these boards may be familiar with these already. 

Here is a pic of his first: http://redgoatee.net/blog/2005/01/why-i-am-coolest-calvinist-in-galaxy.html
And his second: http://www.redgoatee.net/DSCI0001.JPG


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## New wine skin (Jun 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Batman_
> I guess my point is...what the difference between getting a tattoo of the Dodger "D" and wearing a Dodger cap around? They're both saying you identify with a team...that's it.




I answer with: a hat keeps the sun off my bald head, my tattoo descrates my body which is not my own. I suppose I could wear a hat with no reference to sports teams but the truth is that the ball cap is not permanent and is cheap. To me the Tattoo requires an obessive desire to associate with an image or idea to want to endure the pain and permance of it. I'm not saying you have an obessive desire, just that too me thats what would justify wanting a tattoo. Just one perspective. Let us all pray for uncommon wisom!

Reactions: Like 1


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## tdowns (Jun 10, 2005)

*Good points*

I think you guys are doing a great job of expressing some of the intrinsic issues with the "why" of getting tattoos.

I have one from my younger days, it's small and of comic hero origins, Thor's hammer, at the time it was more just for fun, commradrie with friends, sense of adventure, etc. (Pre fad though, 20 years ago), I have thought of getting another at times, I think it's possible to want one just as a way of personal expression, I've heard of Christian tattoo artists(and thought it would be cool to express faith that way)...

...but you guys make some great legit points. 

One major neg, is, even if you get one for artist reasons, the art fades and loses it's visual appeal over time, so even the "art" becomes not attractive. I've gotten a temporary one with my kids before, kind of fun, expressive, and not permanent.

I still wouldn't mind Captain America's Shield on my right shoulder though.


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## BobVigneault (Jun 10, 2005)

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
"Why I'm the coolest calvinist in the galaxy"? Your honor, I rest my case.

Hey, I do have Soli Deo Gloria imprinted on my checks. Just as a reminder.


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## AdamM (Jun 10, 2005)

I tend to think applying the Leviticus passage to tattoos is a bit of a stretch, but I sometimes think we forget that a practice can be a really bad idea without a specific scriptural condemnation. Tattoos are no doubt cool when you are young, but kids rarely consider what that same tattoo is going to look like when you're 35 years old interviewing for a senior management position or 45 years old with your parts starting to sag a bit.


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## Texas Aggie (Jun 10, 2005)

Why would applying something out of Leviticus be a bit of a stretch? Is this not what God has commanded?

Reactions: Like 1


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## tdowns (Jun 10, 2005)

*Sweet!*

If I'm being honest, and maybe it's of the flesh, but I can't help but dig those tattoos. Maybe I'm rebellious, and I'm open to all that's been said and am heavy leaning against another myself, but I can't help but like those tattoos, and think they are cool. That's just my emotional response.


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## BobVigneault (Jun 10, 2005)

Our family crest is a cluster of grapes. I thought it would be cool to get that on my chest and then when I'm old, it will be a cluster of raisins.

My dad got a tatoo on his arm with his first wife's name on it. After he divorced her and married my mom, he had a mortise design placed over his first wife's name. After he divorced my mother and married his third. he had another mortise put over my mother's and his third wife's added to his wrist. He died before he ran out of arm.

[Edited on 6-10-2005 by maxdetail]


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## tdowns (Jun 10, 2005)

> _Originally posted by maxdetail_
> Our family crest is a cluster of grapes. I thought it would be cool to get that on my chest and then when I'm old, it will be a cluster of raisins.
> 
> My dad got a tatoo on his arm with his first wifes name on it. After he divorced here and married my mom, he had a mortiss design place over his first wife's name. After he divorce my mother and married his third. He had another mortiss put over my mothers and his third wifes added to his wrist. He died before he ran out of arm.






Now that's funny! 

On a side note: I do think we can dishonor our God given bodies by letting them sag too much just as much as getting a tatoo would.


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## AdamM (Jun 10, 2005)

> Why would applying something out of Leviticus be a bit of a stretch? Is this not what God has commanded?



The OPC website addresses this question and gives and an answer that I fully concur with shown below: (For what it's worth, I do think if want to apply Leviticus 19.28 to the practice of tattoos today, to be consistent the men better be letting their beards grow and not cutting their hair over the temples, plus eating kosher meat.) 



> Question:
> 
> Does the OPC have a stated position regarding body-art (tattoos)? If there is no official position, what are your views on the subject? Leviticus 19:28 seems to forbid it, but some have reasoned that this only forbids tattoos done for "religious" reasons or "for the dead." Does the subject matter of the tattoo art determine whether it is right or wrong, or is the practice of getting tattoos in itself sinful? Is there a difference between getting tattoos in the Old Covenant vs. the New Covenant? My own family is split over this issue (and biased because some have tattoos) and I would appreciate a thoughtful answer.
> 
> ...


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jun 10, 2005)

How "official" are the Q and A's on the OPC website?


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## Texas Aggie (Jun 10, 2005)

Either way you wish to look at it is fine with me. A commandment to the Jew seems relevant to me. As far as kosher... Don't you think God may know a little more about our digestive system than we do?

I see the necessity for a change in the law as indicated in Hebrews.... two specifics aspects of the ceremonial law in fact. Not sure when we decided to throw out the rest of God's commandments.


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## LadyFlynt (Jun 10, 2005)

(surprised that Paul manata hasn't thrown a fit in here yet)


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## Puritanhead (Jun 11, 2005)

Anything not of faith is a sin? Does your faith compel you to get a tattoo?


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## satz (Jun 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Puritanhead_
> Anything not of faith is a sin? Does your faith compel you to get a tattoo?



i haven't really thought about this much, simply because i have no desire at all to get a tattoo... 

however, i don't think we can say that anything you aren't COMPELLED by your faith to do is sin...

don't think that what those verses mean...


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## Puritanhead (Jun 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by satz_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Puritanhead_
> ...



the Bible says anything not of faith is a sin... Romans 14:23

sin can also be what we neglect to do...

http://www.desiringgod.org/library/sermons/80/082480.html


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## fredtgreco (Jun 11, 2005)

'de plane! 'de plane!











couldn't resist!


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## Scot (Jun 11, 2005)

I have a tattoo on each arm and one on my chest. I did get them in my reprobate days. I have no desire to get any more but I don't think that I'd 'cause too much of a fuss if a christian brother decided to get one (depending on what it was).




> On a side note: I do think we can dishonor our God given bodies by letting them sag too much just as much as getting a tattoo would



That's just it. I always remember my Dad saying that every christian that told him to quit smoking cigarettes was 100 pounds overweight. I see alot of christians who get upset about things like tattoos, tobacco, etc. and use the "our body is a temple" arguement, yet they're eating garbage food, taking a ton of prescription drugs, etc.

My grandparents are a perfect example of this. It's a sin to get a tattoo, drink or smoke, etc., yet they eat junk which has caused them to have heart disease and diabetes. Now instead of watching or changing what they stuff into their mouths, they take a bunch of drugs. My tattoos haven't defiled my body nearly as much as their lifestyle has defiled theirs.

Why do we pick things like tattoos and say they defile our bodies but eating candy bars is o.k.?


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## RamistThomist (Jun 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Augusta_
> Leviticus 19:28
> 
> 28 You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the LORD.



But that's for OT Israel and they are a theocracy and those laws are done away with because we are under grace and not law!

Sorry, I could't help it. That wasn't directed at anybody in particular.


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## Augusta (Jun 11, 2005)

The passage is titled "ceremonial and *moral * law."


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## RamistThomist (Jun 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Augusta_
> The passage is titled "ceremonial and *moral * law."



Does the Scripture itself title it that or does the publisher?


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## Augusta (Jun 11, 2005)

The NKJV does it. Probably based on the fact that there are moral and ceremonial laws in the passage.


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## RamistThomist (Jun 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Augusta_
> The NKJV does it. Probably based on the fact that there are moral and ceremonial laws in the passage.


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## Augusta (Jun 11, 2005)




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## Puddleglum (Jun 12, 2005)

Andrew,
To answer your question about how "official" the OPC Q&As are: According to the website (http://www.opc.org/cce/QandA/), " The answers come from individual ministers in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church expressing their own convictions and do not necessarily represent the "official" position of the Church, especially in areas where the Standards of the Church (the Scriptures and the Westminster Confession of Faith and Catechisms) are silent."


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jun 12, 2005)

Thanks, Jessica!


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