# Is God's wrath eternal?



## Mathetes (Apr 30, 2013)

Preamble:

I once took a course on Islam (from a Christian perspective, mind you) and the teacher said that one of the flaws of Islam is that before Adam, Allah had no one to love. He could only love himself, which is probably narcissistic and likely unfulfilling. By contrast, within the Trinity it can be said that the Father has eternally loved the Son and the Spirit, the Spirit has eternally loved the Father and the Son, and so on.

The Question Proper:

Whether or not that's a good argument against Islam, I'll leave for another day; however, it did set me to wondering - if God's love is eternal, then what about His wrath? There was no one to be wrathful against before the fall. But yet, does it make sense that one of His attributes (love) could be eternal, while another (wrath) would not be? Of course, I guess this would entirely depend on how one frames divine timelessness. Still, any thoughts?


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## Loopie (Apr 30, 2013)

Just my two cents, but I would say that God's love is eternal because it existed eternally within the godhead. Prior to creation there was no violation of God's holiness/law, and so there would be no object of God's wrath. So I would say that God's wrath (being a 'response' to sin) was not 'eternal', at least in its manifestation. In other words, God has eternally hated sin, but prior to creation there had not yet existed any sinner. (of course, I suppose one could say that God already 'knew' his creation, including fallen angels and reprobate men, before he created them; and therefore his wrath still existed, although it would not yet be manifest until his creation actually sinned).

To summarize, the biggest distinction I see regarding the nature of love and wrath is that wrath is ultimately God's response to a violation of his holiness/law. So in some sense of the term, God's wrath did not 'exist' until someone actually sinned against him. Before creation there was no object of God's wrath, because only God himself existed. But there WAS an object of God's love eternally within the Godhead. 

I have tried to word everything as clearly as I could, but if I have misspoken in some way I ask that you please correct me. Thoughts?


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## Peairtach (Apr 30, 2013)

God's wrath is eternal on those who's guilt is eternal; that is those who do not avail themselves, by God's grace, of Christ, whether they've heard the Gospel or not.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (John 3:17-18, ESY)

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. (John 3:36)

A book like, e.g., Shedd's "The Doctrine of Eternal Punishment" (Banner of Truth), is very good in explaining why God's wrath is forever on those that do not trust in Christ to have their guilt removed.


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## Mathetes (Apr 30, 2013)

Peairtach said:


> God's wrath is eternal on those who's guilt is eternal; that is those who do not avail themselves, by God's grace, of Christ, whether they've heard the Gospel or not.
> 
> For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (John 3:17-18, ESY)
> 
> ...



True, but this is "eternal" in the sense that it has a beginning but no end, or what I believe is referred to as "sempeternal." However, God's love could be said to have no beginning and no end.

I think I agree at least somewhat with Eric (if I understand him rightly), that perhaps God's wrath (and justice) could exist at least in concept eternally, even if there were no one to express it to/against until a particular point in time.


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## Don Kistler (Apr 30, 2013)

By definition something that is eternal can have no beginning or end. So His wrath cannot be eternal. But it can be everlasting. And for the impenitent that is just as bad. Even worse, His wrath is infinite. It has no bounds.


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## A5pointer (Apr 30, 2013)

Mathetes said:


> Preamble:
> 
> I once took a course on Islam (from a Christian perspective, mind you) and the teacher said that one of the flaws of Islam is that before Adam, Allah had no one to love. He could only love himself, which is probably narcissistic and likely unfulfilling. By contrast, within the Trinity it can be said that the Father has eternally loved the Son and the Spirit, the Spirit has eternally loved the Father and the Son, and so on.
> 
> ...



I think you may be confusing categories here. We can say attributes are eternal. We should see love as an attribute. However wrath does not belong in the category of attributes. It is as suggested above a necessary action flowing from the attribute of justice which would be considered eternal.


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## a mere housewife (May 1, 2013)

The law is the law of love, it expresses, according to our created nature, the revelation of God -- 'God is love'. Wrath is an external dealing with the creature who has fallen out of fellowship with God, out of the image of this love. And yet this love is so incredible that the most exact image or revelation we have of God is in the second person of the Trinity becoming man to reconcile the fallen creature to Himself -- out of love for the Father. So I understand it. Wrath is a 'secondary'? attribute, not internal to the Trinity, forming the backdrop for an even greater outpouring and more vivid expression of the Love that God essentially is.

(Added: A concept I encountered in literature influenced by Islam is that hell is ultimately no different than heaven, for it is merely isolation from a God who is essentially isolated -- hell is then, the most pure form of heaven in that it is the true sharing of the 'loneliness of the Only One'.)


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## A5pointer (May 1, 2013)

I heard a good old fashioned alter call sermon on television the other day. Warning sinners that people in hell are not nice. There will dwell with you murderers, robbers and rapists oh no. ... I have an old admiration for these guys sticking to their message week after week. Albeit wrong. I was saved 1000 plus times as a baptist youth.


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## KMK (May 1, 2013)

God's love is an expression of His attribute of goodness. God's wrath is an expression of His attribute of justice. Both His goodness and His justice are eternal.



> WSC Q 4: What is God?
> A: God is a Spirit,1 infinite, eternal, and unchangeable, in his being,2 wisdom,3 power,4 holiness,5 justice,6 goodness,7 and truth.8



God 'expresses' His attributes at different times and in different ways. Before the foundation of the world there was no expression of either love or wrath, but that does not change the fact that He possessed both goodness and justice.


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## Loopie (May 1, 2013)

KMK said:


> God 'expresses' His attributes at different times and in different ways. Before the foundation of the world there was no expression of either love or wrath, but that does not change the fact that He possessed both goodness and justice.



But wouldn't you say that there was eternal love between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? So in that sense, love (as an expression of God's goodness) existed and was expressed within the Godhead. Wrath (as an expression of God's justice) did not need to be expressed until someone transgressed God's law.


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## KMK (May 1, 2013)

I've never heard of the word 'love' used to describe the relationship between the persons of the Godhead. 

The point I am trying to make is that there is an absolute and relative sense to all of God's attributes. God's goodness is eternal in its absolute sense. Love is an expression of His relative goodness in time. The same is true for His justice. He is just in an absolute sense and just in a relative sense. His wrath is an expression of His relative justice. Therefore, God is eternally just in an absolute sense, but His wrath is an expression of His relative justice in time.


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## py3ak (May 1, 2013)

Ken, I agree with your point, and I think the distinction between absolute and relative is critical for a proper understanding of the question. I have to point out, though, that there is quite a long tradition of referring to the relationships between the persons of the Trinity under the heading of love: a Biblically warranted tradition, judging from John 17:24. For a recent treatment that does so see Michael Reeves' _Delighting in the Trinity_. But he is not the only one: Augustine and Aquinas certainly used that terminology. Peter Lombard goes so far as to say that the Holy Spirit is the love with which the Father and Son love one another (and indeed, also the love with which we humans love God, but that ties him in knots).


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## KMK (May 2, 2013)

py3ak said:


> Ken, I agree with your point, and I think the distinction between absolute and relative is critical for a proper understanding of the question. I have to point out, though, that there is quite a long tradition of referring to the relationships between the persons of the Trinity under the heading of love: a Biblically warranted tradition, judging from John 17:24. For a recent treatment that does so see Michael Reeves' _Delighting in the Trinity_. But he is not the only one: Augustine and Aquinas certainly used that terminology. Peter Lombard goes so far as to say that the Holy Spirit is the love with which the Father and Son love one another (and indeed, also the love with which we humans love God, but that ties him in knots).



Thanks, Ruben. I will keep an eye out for it.


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