# Cessation of new canonical revelation? Yes! --- Cessation of all miracles? Not necessarily.



## biblelighthouse (Jan 19, 2006)

There is a Reformed PCA author, who teaches at Westminster Theological Seminary, and who published a book with P&R Publishing. His name is Vern Poythress, and the book is Symphonic Theology.








The book includes a chapter which has a helpful Reformed view pertaining to the following:

In a previous thread, we went around in circles about cessationism. Certain persons argued that a miracle necessarily brings about new revelation, and thus miracles can no longer occur. I _agreed_ that new revelation cannot occur, but _disagreed_ that miracles necessarily carry fresh revelation. Thus, I am open to the possibility of the miraculous, even though I do not seek for it.


I have been reading Symphonic Theology. It has a chapter on miracles, and I think he makes his case quite well. He makes it clear that *new canonical revelation does not occur*. Nevertheless, he still leaves the door open for *non-canonically-revelatory miracles*.

You can read his entire book online, including his chapter on miracles.

I recommend reading Symphonic Theology before writing off any possibility of modern miracles.





[Edited on 1-19-2006 by biblelighthouse]


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## biblelighthouse (Jan 19, 2006)

I think these are exellent examples of God's Spirit working supernaturally . . . and yet NOT causing any new biblical revelation to come about.

The canon is closed. But providence is open.


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## Scott (Jan 19, 2006)

I did not read the other thread. Many reformers (Rutherford, Luther, Gillespie, and many others) believed that special revelation can still occur. See, for example, A Reformation Discussion of Extraordinary Predictive Prophecy Subsequent to the Closing of the Canon of Scripture. Puritan Richard Baxter, in his famous Christian Directory, has an entry on how to distinguish true prophecy from false. 

Note that these revelations do not become canonical. The canon is closed. Even when the canon was open, not all revelation became scripture.


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## Scott (Jan 19, 2006)

"The canon is closed. But providence is open."

A dream or vision is not providence. It is special revelation.


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## RamistThomist (Jan 19, 2006)

there are also accounts of Scottish Covenanters be able to know--magically or something like that--that English Armies were around the next bend and they avoided it. Of course, it could be legend...


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## biblelighthouse (Jan 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> "The canon is closed. But providence is open."
> 
> A dream or vision is not providence. It is special revelation.




I stand corrected.


My point was that any modern working of God is not going to open the canon back up. Thus, I was specifically talking about special _canonical_ revelation.


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## biblelighthouse (Jan 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> I did not read the other thread. Many reformers (Rutherford, Luther, Gillespie, and many others) believed that special revelation can still occur. See, for example, A Reformation Discussion of Extraordinary Predictive Prophecy Subsequent to the Closing of the Canon of Scripture. Puritan Richard Baxter, in his famous Christian Directory, has an entry on how to distinguish true prophecy from false.
> 
> Note that these revelations do not become canonical. The canon is closed. Even when the canon was open, not all revelation became scripture.


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## VictorBravo (Jan 19, 2006)

I have to agree with Joseph and my personal experience reflects Trevor's. 

I've had too many premonitions to discount them. The most vivid was a dream of an earthquake and me leading my own father out of a wrecked building and standing by him in a courtroom. (He was a lawyer, as am I). The morning after that dream, I received word that my father had committed suicide. There was no warning, he was over a thousand miles away and seemed fine when I last talked to him. Sadly, as far as I knew, he was an unbeliever.

I would never consider that experience to be anything other than a remarkable and particular occurrence allowed or caused by God. In my view, it is not superstition because I do not attempt to run my life on the basis of what my dreams tell me. For the rule of life and faith, I would only look to God's Word, which is fully sufficient and complete.

Such things are not cannonical revelation and I don't think they are contrary to scripture. I would not base my faith upon dreams. Neither do I doubt the dream. It is simply an outworking that I accept.

Vic


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## wsw201 (Jan 19, 2006)

Regarding miracles, I would agree with the WCF section 3:

3. God, in his ordinary providence, maketh use of means, yet is free to work without, above, and against them, at his pleasure.

I would classify modern miracles as "extra-ordinary" providence. But the idea that someone can "touch" someone else or cast a shadow, and they are healed is something that ended with the Apostles.


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## nlknorr (Jan 19, 2006)

*The Heavenly Man*

Has anyone read The Heavenly Man? It is the story of Brother Yun, a Christian brother from China. It has caused me to ponder the Lord's work in areas of the world where it stands to reason there is intense spiritual warfare and where the Scriptures are less readily available.

nate


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## Scott (Jan 19, 2006)

Nate: Tell us about it. Unevangelized areas typically report more miracles. This is an interesting feature of church history as well. Tertullian commented on this interesting fact once. Thanks


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Jan 19, 2006)

I would distinguish between "Miracles" and "miracles."

Miracles can be negatively distinguished in five basic areas: 

1) Miracles should be distinguished from the works of God's providence; they should not be portrayed as anything which is sustained within God's grace as normal and operative in this world, (or by a special providence as we have today). 

2) They should be distinguished from the type of answers to prayer that do not constitute signs or demonstrative evidences toward unbelievers. 

3) They should be distinguished between works of magic (compare Exodus 7:11 and Exodus 8:7). 

4) They must also be distinguished from Satanic or demonic "œwonders". Paul foretells of the Man of Sin "in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit signs and wonders", 2 Thessalonians 2:9; cf. Revelation 13:14; 19:20. 

5) And Finally, miracles are to be distinguished between mere "religious" exotic occurrences; existential, unprovable experiences.

Yet, somewhat more restricted, most relate miracles to any type of unexpected event caused by a supreme being or supernatural force.

A Miracle is a divine intervention into, or an interruption of, the regular course of the world that produces a purposeful but unusual event that would not (or could not) have occurred otherwise. The natural world is the world of regular, observable, and predictable events. Hence, a miracle by definition cannot be predicted by natural means.

Miracles are events which dramatically reveal a living, personal God, active in the history of his people, not as mere "œdestiny", but as a Redeemer who saves and guides His people. Do these "special providences" do that?


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## VictorBravo (Jan 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by C. Matthew McMahon_
> 
> A Miracle is a divine intervention into, or an interruption of, the regular course of the world that produces a purposeful but unusual event that would not (or could not) have occurred otherwise. The natural world is the world of regular, observable, and predictable events. Hence, a miracle by definition cannot be predicted by natural means.
> 
> Miracles are events which dramatically reveal a living, personal God, active in the history of his people, not as mere "œdestiny", but as a Redeemer who saves and guides His people. Do these "special providences" do that?



I'm quite happy with that definition. I think I'd even stay clear of "special providences" and consider all things that occur around or to me to be God's providence. I don't try to figure out his will on the basis of their outworking, but I do thank God for them.

Vic


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## mgeoffriau (Jan 19, 2006)

While I agree that many of the reported "miracles" from undeveloped lands and primitive people are most likely chalked up to gullibility (sp?), I have also wondered if perhaps there might be another reason.

Christ often did miracles to demonstrate the authority of His words. Likewise, His apostles were given the ability to do some miracles, in order to advance the Gospel message.

Might not God choose to accompany His Word with some supernatural sign or wonder, in order to demonstrate the authority of the message? So often is seems that these things happen in those areas that were previously unreached by the Gospel.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Jan 19, 2006)

But I think that is the catch. Miracles attested to the unwritten and preached word of the Messiah, and the Apostles.

Since it is now written down, and since we have the shining light of the Holy Spirit on that Word fo glorify the Living Christ, why do we need miracles for that reason today? Its like it is leftover from the work previously done and accomplished.


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## mgeoffriau (Jan 19, 2006)

I see your point, but it could be asked whether Christ's words ever really _needed_ additional testimony through miracles. Did Christ's words not carry authority apart from His physical works? Nevertheless, Christ chose to provide additional validation.

In any case, I am not at all certain of my idea...it just strikes me as a possibility.


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## cupotea (Jan 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> there are also accounts of Scottish Covenanters be able to know--magically or something like that--that English Armies were around the next bend and they avoided it. Of course, it could be legend...



Close friends of mine are Covenanters. And one of the things that I balk against is their notion of "predictive prophecy." I.e., Gillespie's prediction of his persecutor's own death ... which happened, etc.

My objection to it is that if we allow for "revelatory non-canonical miracles," then I can see nothing to stand in the way of the papist's emphasis upon Sacred Tradition - the "living memory" of the church that gives them authority to teach in purgatory, the immaculate conception, etc., blech. In other words, it seems to 

But I admit that I *may* be fallible and it could be there's something to this. I'd welcome any instruction in this area.


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## VictorBravo (Jan 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by trevorjohnson_
> Many Muslims who come to faith in Christ claim to have dreams of Jesus where He tells them to read the Bible or believe in Him, etc. I have talked to some.
> 
> 
> ...



I wouldn't discount the power of the gospel even in the Muslim world. I worked in Iraq years ago and numerous Muslims I knew there had heard of Jesus and the claim that he was the Son of God. They didn't believe, but they thought about it.


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## Peter (Jan 19, 2006)

God does work wonderous things in his providence, and some times does providentially give true premonitions and predictions but there are no new revelations with the close of the canon. The task of giving all that was necessary for salvation and for the government and administration of the church belonged to the apostles. Their teachings remain with us in the scriptures of the NT. The amazing predictions of Hus, Wishart, Peden and others belong to God's providence not special revelation. And remember, most of the miracles subsequent to the apostles have been what they warned would be "lying wonders with all deceivableness of unrighteousness."


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## VictorBravo (Jan 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by trevorjohnson_
> Ah, you were in the Middle East too? They wouldn't even TOUCH a Gospel tract. I remember once that I put one on a table. Two weeks later I came to the same place and there was a pile of dust around the tract (they dusted around it so as not to touch it). Hard nuts to crack (with the emphasis on NUTS).



Yes I was there, but at the time I was an unbeliever. I was more of a cultural Christian. I did have my Bible and, oddly, I found myself defending the very Gospel I rejected. My Muslim friends were not so frightened about the Bible physically, but they violently rejected my attempts to read aloud from it.

I loved the time, and I used my Bible as a tourist guide. I visited Babylon numerous times, and spent a night at Ur. I had a picnic at the confluence of the Tigris and Euphrates while Iranian mortars flew overhead. I even visited Nimrod. It was very romantic. I often pray for those I knew.

Vic


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## Canadian _Shawn (Jan 20, 2006)

Hey all!

I just wanted to add my tidbit of info about God still working through miracles, dreams and visions.

I recently met an Albania man name Sokol (not sure of the spelling) who now lives in Amsterdam, who was a former muslim but converted to Christianity a few years ago after having three dreams where Jesus spoke to him. He's now a born-again Christian and attributes his salvation to God's unmerited grace, because at the time he was not in any way searching for or interested in the Christian God and had absolutely no reason for converting to Christianity. Since his conversion he has only had grief with his family in Albania, and it seems he has suffered much for his new faith. Although I am not a cessasionist in any way, I am still skeptical whenever I hear about such stories, but after speaking with this guy for several hours I was convinced by his testimony and gladly praised God with him.

Cheers,
Shawn


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## Scott (Jan 20, 2006)

In China today one of the most cited reasons for conversion is the presence of miracles, especially those related to healing. The conversion of the Roman Empire was in substantial part (not exclusively) converted because of ongoing miracles, as Ramsay MacMullen documents in his book, Christianizing the Roman Empire (New Haven and London: Yale University Press, 1984). These events are all post-apostolic. 

I am not sure that these people were /are more gullible so much as we are desensitized to the supernatural b/c of the strong naturalistic materialism of our culture.


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## biblelighthouse (Jan 20, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> 
> I am not sure that these people were /are more gullible so much as we are desensitized to the supernatural b/c of the strong naturalistic materialism of our culture.


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