# When do we cross the line in being seeker friendly - we are to be friendly



## DonP

Most churches have free coffee for before and or after worship, but some scoff the advertising of free lattes. 

Some programs are good and having activities for kids and adults alike to gather and fellowship or study with Christians is a good thing. 

We might think it odd to say padded pews and air conditioning is being seeker friendly and I certainly would like to have these in my church. 

FLowers up front? 

So what things would be a definite crossing of the line? Is it not in these extras just the preaching content or ??

And why do the Arminians get so many to come to their churches and we don't? Can we use some methods, or not?

And how do we know we are not hypercalvinistic at ease in zion just plain lazy and irresponsible letting God add to the church if He will apart from us as means?


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## Rich Koster

In my humble opinion we cross the line in being "seeker friendly" whenever we compromise truth or don't give the whole story to be non offensive in order to keep people coming back. We also cross the line when we bring "the world" into the Church to make it more palatable to outsiders. Coddling people in their sins to appear "friendly" would also be a sin of omission on our part.


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## DonP

Rich Koster said:


> We also cross the line when we bring "the world" into the Church to make it more palatable to outsiders.



I like the other things you said. Can you expand on this or give examples of what would be the world? Like mine, padded pews, air conditioning, flowers, food, coffee, where do we draw the line?


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## Rangerus




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## SolaScriptura

The way to ensure that everyone knows you're absolutely committed to being truly and completely faithful is to think of everything that would be comfortable or pleasing to the senses in any way and then do the opposite. Pews with pads? Forget it! And microphones? Please! That just encourages people to not strive with all their might to hear what is being said. And color variation? That just distracts. Have plain white walls. That way nothing will stop attendees from looking at the pastor. 

Have serious fun thinking of all the things to take away in order to ensure that we're not pleasing people!


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## Tirian

I agree with Rich. Anytime we try to "sell" the "value proposition" of Church and Christianity as being the comfort of life, happiness, entertainment etc as a means to lure people into the church and retain them we have well and truly crossed the line. 

1Co 1:21-24 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. (22) For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; (23) but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, (24) but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Remain faithful to the Word, declaring God's righteousness, the judgment to come and the way of Life and God will bring the increase.

Matt


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## Rich Koster

PeaceMaker said:


> Rich Koster said:
> 
> 
> 
> We also cross the line when we bring "the world" into the Church to make it more palatable to outsiders.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like the other things you said. Can you expand on this or give examples of what would be the world? Like mine, padded pews, air conditioning, flowers, food, coffee, where do we draw the line?
Click to expand...


I'm not referring to what could be generally classified as "creature comforts" (a/c, coffee, non-torturing seating). What I am referring to is worldly gimmicks to promote things, hype and nonsense to make a circus type environment, baiting crowds with giveaways, catering to felt needs in a community rather than real ones, and the like. I would also add letting popular opinions and trends control what is done rather than a vision statement.


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## PastorSBC

Matthew Glover said:


> I agree with Rich. Anytime we try to "sell" the "value proposition" of Church and Christianity as being the comfort of life, happiness, entertainment etc as a means to lure people into the church and retain them we have well and truly crossed the line.



I think you are right on the mark. This is way more of the line than worrying about coffee and flowers.


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## NaphtaliPress

Never be kind and considerate; always be sarcastic and brutally blunt. That will keep 'em uncomfortable for sure.


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## DonP

Rich Koster said:


> baiting crowds with giveaways,



Sorry if I am trying to get you to draw clear lines where there aren't any, but we give away food or coffee so what kind of give aways would be over the top. 

And how do we determine how much marketing advertising we can do to attract them? 

Can we nail it down at least as extremes you have seen that most Ref Christians would say, that definitely crosses the line?


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## SolaScriptura

NaphtaliPress said:


> Never be kind and considerate; always be sarcastic and brutally blunt. That will keep 'em uncomfortable for sure.



Now THAT'S what I'm talking about! 

-----Added 4/11/2009 at 03:54:12 EST-----

Oh, and don't forget to grill them on their theological beliefs when they walk in the door. And eye them suspiciously as you await their answers... That'll let them know that you take truth seriously!


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## DonP

That's pretty much what a lot of Ref churches do, I am looking for how far the other way we can go. 

So many take offense at those caricatures and maybe not so caricature of Reformed churches and don't get much chance to sit long under the good preaching.


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## Romans922

I still dont get the 'seeker' thing. I thought "none seeks for God."


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## Rich Koster

PeaceMaker said:


> Rich Koster said:
> 
> 
> 
> baiting crowds with giveaways,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry if I am trying to get you to draw clear lines where there aren't any, but we give away food or coffee so what kind of give aways would be over the top.
> 
> And how do we determine how much marketing advertising we can do to attract them?
> 
> Can we nail it down at least as extremes you have seen that most Ref Christians would say, that definitely crosses the line?
Click to expand...


I'm talking about stuffing the children's Sunday School by promoting an x-box or bicycle give away. I'm talking about luring adults with gas card give-aways. Coffee during class is a small hospitality. A food pantry is fine for people enduring temporary financial shortfalls. Crossing the line would be advertising the best stocked food pantry in town to get people in the door


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## jambo

I know seeker friendly churches are frowned upon but I feel we are throwing out the baby with the bath water. When the unchurched enter our buildings and sit through a service it is like coming into another planet. If, for instance, you were to walk into a bookmakers to place a bet on a horse chances are you would feel uneasy, unsure and unfamiliar with the terminology you would feel attention being drawn to yourself. 

It is like that with unchurched people coming into our churches. They may feel unsure, uneasy and wonder at the strange terms and phrases being used. We should be mindful of this but we should not compromise or introduce gimmicks just to please "the seeker." As Spurgeon once said the church is to feed the sheep rather than entertain the goats.

People have often commented about our own church that they came back because they were warmly recieved, that people spoke to them and made them feel welcome. I feel that is the key. It does not matter whether the church is perceived as seeker friendly or not, if you are warmly received then people will return.


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## Rangerus

I think the answer is somewhere between Ephesus and Laodicea.

[video=youtube;HNjeJXb1Io4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNjeJXb1Io4&feature=player_embedded[/video]


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## Rich Koster

Rangerus said:


> I think the answer is somewhere between Ephesus and Laodicea.
> 
> YouTube - First Seeker-Sensitive Church of Relevance



Satire.........I like it.


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## AThornquist

There is nothing wrong with comfortable seating, air conditioning, flowers, free refreshments before and/or after worship, being friendly, etc. What "seeker friendly" churches do however is abominable. By "seeker friendly" they typically mean practical, non-theological sermons, music that is more for entertainment than for a sacrifice to the Lord, a deformed gospel, and manipulative strategies to get people to "say the salvation prayer." This great Protestant Deformation completely disregards the Lord's sovereignty in salvation and the power of the Holy Spirit to quicken the wretched souls of men. These churches try to do it themselves, which is why those of the Deformed community are millions in number and near biblically illiterate. No true repentance, no obligation, no problem.

There is a tremendous difference between being contemporary and compromising, though. I believe that we should certainly be contemporary. The times change! We aren't living in the 1950s, even if old fundies wish we were. The year is 2009, and we have amazing tools and blessings at our disposal. However, we must _never_ compromise. The gospel transcends style, culture, and technology, thus we must be on our guard to _never_ think that the message, method, and means of salvation has changed. We must preach Christ and Him crucified, raised from the dead, and the One and only sacrifice for sins. We must preach that truth from the pulpits with courage and fear of the Lord. We must do so with the confidence that the Holy Spirit is the one who brings dead souls to life. Therefore, if a church tries to manipulate people in any way to "pray the prayer," it has crossed the line. That doesn't mean we don't plead on behalf of Christ for people to repent and believe on Christ or do our best to persuade the masses that He is the way, the truth, and the life, but those _must be done_ without compromise.


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## PastorSBC

Excellent words AThorn.


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## Herald

There is nothing inherently wrong with free coffee, donuts, bagels, books, DVD's, programs etc. Personally, I would be thrilled if the church was accessible seven days a week for various functions that center on teaching and applying the Word in the lives of the saints. The problem comes when the church accessorizes the gospel. The message preached is to stand alone on Christ's merits, not anything that we attach to it. When the saints gather for worship and fellowship, does the creature comforts of the church interfere with the clear message of the cross? If so, that is when a church has crossed the line.



> I still dont get the 'seeker' thing. I thought "none seeks for God."



None do. But God can use a process in calling His elect to faith. That process can easily resemble "seeking", although the seeker isn't seeking of his own volition.


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## OPC'n

> When do we cross the line in being seeker friendly - we are to be friendly



When you care more about pleasing the person than God.


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## larryjf

I would say it depends on the motive.
If we are motivated by men, whether saved or not, we are in a bad place.
If we are motivated by a love for God and man, then we are in a good place.


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## DonP

larryjf said:


> I would say it depends on the motive.
> If we are motivated by men, whether saved or not, we are in a bad place.
> If we are motivated by a love for God and man, then we are in a good place.



So as long as our motive is good we are free to do whatever?


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## larryjf

PeaceMaker said:


> larryjf said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would say it depends on the motive.
> If we are motivated by men, whether saved or not, we are in a bad place.
> If we are motivated by a love for God and man, then we are in a good place.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So as long as our motive is good we are free to do whatever?
Click to expand...


If our motive is God-ward that would imply that we are NOT free to do "whatever"


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## harvelljr

First and foremost I believe that everyone here realizes that there are no seekers until one comes to faith. Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 

Secondly the reason that the Arminians have more in their churches is because they promote the world. They are idolatrous. Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 

The Arminians have a humanistic man-centered philosophy going on. It is all about what we can obtain. I see it all the time riding down the road and reading the church signs. One read: "Free trip to heaven, details inside." This is nothing but trying to cater to the unconverted heart of a man. It is trying to sell the gospel. 

Men do not like to be reproved therefore they will not come to the light. I was in Pentecostal churches from 1992 until last year and never heard one sermon on the substitutionary death of Christ, the sovereignty of God, the effectual calling of God. It wasn't until I started preaching these things five years ago, that I had ever heard them in a church service. The church world of today enters the sanctuary just like they enter Wal-Mart. Before I was removed from my church, I was the first one there every service. I spent an hour in prayer and study. Even the Senior Pastor would drag in at 5 minutes till and spend time talking to people about yesterdays football game until 15 minutes after time to start. I would sit back waiting, wondering, "Why people do not love the Lord enough to enter his gates with thanksgiving." But then my Pastor would get in the pulpit and preach a message on how to have better self esteem or you have to learn to love yourself before you can learn to love others or he would give a moral sermon on how to live a little better. He would rent a big screen Tv and we would have a dinner and a movie instead of hearing from God's word.

This my friends is not the gospel. It isn't centered on Christ. It isn't centered on God. God's grace is only spoken of as something that we deserve and not something that has been given to us by God's mercy. My friends this is why the Arminian churches are puffed up in numbers and is why the true churches are but few.

The word of God commands us to feed the sheep that are among us. This is found in 1 Peter 5 and is speaking to the ministers. We are to gather together and feed those who are born again. Seeker friendly churches are catering to the world, removing the symbols of Christianity in order not to offend the so-called seekers. This is a farce.

Todays services are all about what can I get out of this. People enter God's sanctuary and never distinguish the differences between the secular and the sacred. Wherever God is present that place becomes holy. This is the principal of transmission. Moses found out about this at the burning bush. "Put thy shoes off of thy feet for the ground wherein you stand is holy ground."

I have searched from Exodus to Deuteronomy and particularly those books wherein God commanded the Israelites concerning how he should be worshiped and no where did I ever find one place that tells me what I should get out of it. The church is not about what I should get out of it, but is about what I am to give God. We gather together to worship God. He is to be exalted and revered in the service and we are to give what is rightfully due to him.

This my friend is why the Arminians have the numbers. It is because they cater to the world. "Come get the blessings of God, Come get the prosperity of God, etc...." Natural men seek the blessings of God, but do not seek God. They are as Esua who sought the blessing carefully with tears, but found no repentance. Why? Because they want the blessing, but do not want God. They have suppressed the truth of God and served and worshiped the creature more than the Creator. This my friends is idolatry.

We should not cater to the world, but should preach the law and then the gospel, the law and then the gospel. Until a man is deflated and realizes that he is a sinner and in need of a Saviour, he will never cry out for the Lord. This, however, does not occur by the effort of the natural heart, but is brought to pass by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit through the preaching of God's holy unadulterated word.

You must be born again is the cry to Nicodemus. Except a man is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God, Except a man is born again he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Being born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


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## PresbyDane

Well be friendly to a seeker if you can find one, but Paul says you can not.

There is only one true Seeker and he will do the job perfectly, which we are now debating on how to do less imperfect


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## DonP

We are just trying to find out if it is wrong to use some methods to get people to come to hear the word of God preached. 

So lets assume we are clear an in agreement we should not water down or soften the gospel and preaching fo the word to the church in an effort to keep people in the pews. 

Now what would be wrong with using whatever we can to get people to come to hear the gospel so they may be converted? 

Is there a point if we offer to much we waste out time or take the focus off og wanting God to wanting the offer or advertising? 

Jesus offered to feed people and heal as many sick as they brought to Him to get to preach to them?

Would they have come if He was not healing? 
Didn't many come just for the physical healing and then leave? Does this invalidate offering some thing big to get them to come? 

If so what means then does God use through us to get people to the gospel?

I don't see too many ministers today going out into the cities and streets preaching or even on college campuses. They will feed those who comin into the meeting of the saints, but what about those who won't?


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## Rich Koster

PeaceMaker said:


> We are just trying to find out if it is wrong to use some methods to get people to come to hear the word of God preached.
> 
> So lets assume we are clear an in agreement we should not water down or soften the gospel and preaching fo the word to the church in an effort to keep people in the pews.
> 
> Now what would be wrong with using whatever we can to get people to come to hear the gospel so they may be converted?
> 
> Is there a point if we offer to much we waste out time or take the focus off og wanting God to wanting the offer or advertising?
> 
> Jesus offered to feed people and heal as many sick as they brought to Him to get to preach to them?
> 
> Would they have come if He was not healing?
> Didn't many come just for the physical healing and then leave? Does this invalidate offering some thing big to get them to come?
> 
> If so what means then does God use through us to get people to the gospel?
> 
> I don't see too many ministers today going out into the cities and streets preaching or even on college campuses. They will feed those who comin into the meeting of the saints, but what about those who won't?



He also rebuked them and drove away many for following him because they got their fill of bread (John 6).


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## AThornquist

That Jesus sure doesn't sound seeker friendly...


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## Rich Koster

I should add that a lot more was said about wrong ideas and motives, by Jesus, in John 6. Verse 44 clarifies some of the "seeker sensitive" misunderstandings.


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## Knoxienne

in my opinion a church is in danger of being seeker-friendly when it cares more about numbers than it does about preaching the truth and worshipping in Spirit and in truth. God does not use huge numbers. He uses faithful individuals. All it takes are 10 tithing families to support a pastor. It's better to preach to 10-30 people in the assembly who want the truth and who want discipling than have 100+ people there who don't.

A church is in danger of being seeker-friendly when all it cares about are getting new converts and very little about discipling those who are already saved.

A church is in danger of being seeker-friendly when it is too preoccupied with its building - usually building bigger by going into debt.


A church is in danger of being seeker-friendly when it narrows the gospel down to a few verses in the Bible and refuses to expositionally preach the whole counsel of God. 

A church is in danger of being seeker-friendly when it is afraid of offending people by teaching what the Bible has to say on hot button issues. We all know what these are. We may and do differ in their applications, but we all understand the principles of these issues. And we know when they're being avoided or compromised in order to make the masses happy. 

A church is in danger of being seeker-friendly when it cares more about consulting with one of its several committees  in order to get a job done, when all it would take is one to a few willing individuals who know what to do and decide to do it.

A church is in danger of being seeker friendly when it cares more about programs and everybody having " their little ministry" than it does discipleship. 

A church is in danger of being seeker friendly when it segregates people according to age in order to meet the "needs" of different age groups with programs like "youth groups", "nursery" (Yes, I consider church nurseries programs)  Children belong in the congregation - not in a little room with tonka trucks, legos and Sit n Spins.  I realize that during worship various needs of babies and toddlers must be attended to, but these things can be done and are done in assemblies without play rooms. 

A church is in danger of being seeker-friendly when it looks more like a business or a corporation with employees than a group of Christians serving Christ.


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## BG

Knoxienne.

Normally, I am against women preaching, but in this case preach on sister preach on. Amen and Amen.


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## DMcFadden

Seeker sensitive typically denotes a watering down of the message, re-packaging it in ways that appeal to an unregenerate heart (is that really possible???), and having a mindset that determines what the church will be and do by means of polling of the unchurched.

I fail to see how a friendly atmosphere, AC, coffee, or the like is relevant to the issue. We ought to be welcoming to all, compromising to none.


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## BJClark

Rich Koster;



> I'm talking about stuffing the children's Sunday School by promoting an x-box or bicycle give away. I'm talking about luring adults with gas card give-aways.



Churches DO THIS???? I've never heard of any churches in our area doing such things...maybe I should start listening to more advertising..


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## Kevin

I dunno, I provide a free meal to who ever shows up on Sunday night & give a way a lot of bibles.

Is that being seeker friendly?


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## AThornquist

If you teach a solid gospel, that's being a great witness for Christ, Kevin.


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## Edward

BJClark said:


> Rich Koster;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm talking about stuffing the children's Sunday School by promoting an x-box or bicycle give away. I'm talking about luring adults with gas card give-aways.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Churches DO THIS???? I've never heard of any churches in our area doing such things...maybe I should start listening to more advertising..
Click to expand...


Just a video game? Sounds like a bunch of pikers, don't they. 

Lucky teen will take home a car from Lufkin First Assembly Church
Lucky teen will take home a car from Lufkin First Assembly Church

Grand prize, Kia Sportage, 

" "This outreach is a fresh and new creative way to reach the youth of Deep East Texas."

"To win the car, or any of the other prizes, students will have to show up at 7 p.m. April 15th and enter their name into a drawing. At the end of the service five names will be drawn to come on stage."

The X-Box is one of the consolation prizes.


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## DonP

Wow I wanna go to that church. E Texas you say? 

To win a car I would think you would have to bring the most guests to church for a month or something.

But is this unbiblical??


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## AThornquist

Don, I don't know if it is unbiblical or not. Perhaps the possibility of winning a car is what they use to draw a huge crowd, but then they preach a *solid* gospel in order for the Spirit to work in His ways. I don't know if that would be considered a poor stewardship of God's provisions, either.


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## DonP

It seems most of the posters here have only commented on watering down the word preached. 

What we are willing to do to get them to hear it, or how much we spend may not be as important. As long as the thing in itself is indifferent. 

But is an evangelistic outreach a stated worship service and would the RP need to be applied to any of the context? 

Could we use a country or rock band to draw people to a stadium to preach the gospel?


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## Rich Koster

BJClark said:


> Rich Koster;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm talking about stuffing the children's Sunday School by promoting an x-box or bicycle give away. I'm talking about luring adults with gas card give-aways.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Churches DO THIS???? I've never heard of any churches in our area doing such things...maybe I should start listening to more advertising..
Click to expand...


A former congregation I was part of actually did this in the children's ministry and advertised it on a sign out front......that is one of the reasons it is a _former_ congregation I was part of.


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## Der Pilger

PeaceMaker said:


> Now what would be wrong with using whatever we can to get people to come to hear the gospel so they may be converted?



I wonder: If they aren't attracted by the gospel itself, would another attraction really do a better job?



> Jesus offered to feed people and heal as many sick as they brought to Him to get to preach to them?



I'm not so sure. Jesus' primary purpose in ministry, as far as I can tell, was to preach. Consider: 

_ 35 And rising very early in the morning, while it was still dark, he departed and went out to a desolate place, and there he prayed. 36And Simon and those who were with him searched for him, 37and they found him and said to him, "Everyone is looking for you." 38And he said to them, "Let us go on to the next towns, that I may preach there also, *for that is why I came out*." 39 And he went throughout all Galilee, preaching in their synagogues and casting out demons._ (Mark 1:35-39, ESV; emphasis added)

The healings and miracles came about because he, being God incarnate, showed mercy to those around him who had need. That does not mean, however, that he used those acts as tools to draw the crowds to himself. I could be wrong on this, but throughout the NT the preaching of the word of God seemed to be always the primary objective.



> Would they have come if He was not healing?



Jesus said, _"Do not grumble among yourselves. 44No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—"_ (John 6:43b-45, ESV) 

If they've "heard and learned from the Father," they will come to Christ--without being asked.



> If so what means then does God use through us to get people to the gospel?



The gospel.


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## DonP

Der Pilger said:


> PeaceMaker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now what would be wrong with using whatever we can to get people to come to hear the gospel so they may be converted?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder: If they aren't attracted by the gospel itself, would another attraction really do a better job?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jesus offered to feed people and heal as many sick as they brought to Him to get to preach to them?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not so sure. Jesus' primary purpose in ministry, as far as I can tell, was to preach. Consider:
> The healings and miracles came about because he, being God incarnate, showed mercy to those around him who had need. That does not mean, however, that he used those acts as tools to draw the crowds to himself. I could be wrong on this, but throughout the NT the preaching of the word of God seemed to be always the primary objective.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would they have come if He was not healing?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


We are dealing with what our human responsibility is in this thread. Not on predestination. 
It is vital to keep these separate when seeking to understand the meaning of a thing. Which are we dealing with must be answered else we mix and make a mess. 

John 2:23-24

Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did. 24 But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men,
NKJV

John 6:2
2 Then a great multitude followed Him, because they saw His signs which He performed on those who were diseased.
NKJV

I believe there is a passage that speaks to Jesus saying the people only followed Him because He fed them

The question is, is that a legitimate means to gather a crowd. 

The fact it may not have been Christ's intent is not what I am asking. It is the fact it was the result.


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## Der Pilger

Der Pilger said:


> PeaceMaker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now what would be wrong with using whatever we can to get people to come to hear the gospel so they may be converted?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder: If they aren't attracted by the gospel itself, would another attraction really do a better job?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not so sure. Jesus' primary purpose in ministry, as far as I can tell, was to preach. Consider:
> The healings and miracles came about because he, being God incarnate, showed mercy to those around him who had need. That does not mean, however, that he used those acts as tools to draw the crowds to himself. I could be wrong on this, but throughout the NT the preaching of the word of God seemed to be always the primary objective.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would they have come if He was not healing?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...




> We are dealing with what our human responsibility is in this thread. Not on predestination.
> It is vital to keep these separate when seeking to understand the meaning of a thing. Which are we dealing with must be answered else we mix and make a mess.



First, theology drives practice; the two are inseparable. The correct understanding of how salvation takes place will strongly influence the methods we use. Second, you asked, "Would they have come if He was not healing?" I answered your question by pointing out that, yes, they would have come even without healing because all those who hear and learn from God come to Jesus.



> I believe there is a passage that speaks to Jesus saying the people only followed Him because He fed them



It's in John 6. And it actually works against your point. 



> The question is, is that a legitimate means to gather a crowd.
> The fact it may not have been Christ's intent is not what I am asking. It is the fact it was the result.



I'm not sure how you can disregard Christ's intent. For that matter, you seem to be overlooking the author's intention. What was the author's purpose in recording these accounts--to tell us that we should offer free food to draw a crowd to hear the gospel? Was it to teach us how to do outreach? Or was it his intention to portray Christ's character and to provide an accurate account of the events of his ministry? Without answering these questions, all you are doing is saying, "Hey, a lot of people were drawn to Jesus because he performed signs. Therefore, we should try to attract people, too." But that reasoning just doesn't cut it. The mere drawing of a crowd does not in and of itself indicate that it should be attempted.

If you still contend that it is permissible for us to use whatever we can to draw people to hear the gospel, you need to do so on the basis of another biblical text. Does the Bible actually admonish us to concoct means to draw people to the gospel? If so, please cite the text.


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## ReformedChapin

I'll be honest I loved the contemporary worship of my old arminian church and it's a reason why I am still unconfortable in reformed churches. I simply feel more comfortable in a contemporary setting. Yes the preaching is a million times better and biblical in reformed churches but the worship sometimes feels outdated. Not to mention most reformed churches feel tiny, I come from a mega church of 7000.

The current reformed church I am visting Christ Reformed part of the URC is probably the biggest I have enountered which I think it has over 200 people still small from my old church. Guess I'm still in the detox process.


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## DonP

Der Pilger said:


> Der Pilger said:
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> PeaceMaker said:
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> Now what would be wrong with using whatever we can to get people to come to hear the gospel so they may be converted?
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> I wonder: If they aren't attracted by the gospel itself, would another attraction really do a better job?
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> Click to expand...
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> First, theology drives practice; the two are inseparable.
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> *No they are not inseparable. You just separated them One drives the OTHER.
> Now they should be considered in conjunction, not as though one did not exist. But they are not the same.
> *
> 
> The correct understanding of how salvation takes place will strongly influence the methods we use. Second, you asked, "Would they have come if He was not healing?" I answered your question by pointing out that, yes, they would have come even without healing because all those who hear and learn from God come to Jesus.
> *
> If that was the answer then the whole thread is meaningless and we do not have to do anything we just preach in church and wait for them to be drawn to come to the church. No human responsibility at all ?
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> So no, though we do believe in Predestination, we still have human responsibility and we can decide what methods are legitimate rather than being hyperclvinistic and doing nothing. *
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> I believe there is a passage that speaks to Jesus saying the people only followed Him because He fed them
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> Click to expand...
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> It's in John 6. And it actually works against your point.
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> The question is, is that a legitimate means to gather a crowd.
> The fact it may not have been Christ's intent is not what I am asking. It is the fact it was the result.
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> Click to expand...
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> I'm not sure how you can disregard Christ's intent.
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> And I am not sure you absolutely know all of Christ's intent.
> And switching for a moment back to predestination then God did know it would draw a crowd and be a reason they came.
> *
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> The mere drawing of a crowd does not in and of itself indicate that it should be attempted.
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> But of course yes I agree with you that because it happened does not justify it as a means.
> Thus the question of this thread, since this does no prove it is.
> What are the legitimate human means used to get people to come hear the preaching. What are not legitimate? *
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> If you still contend that it is permissible for us to use whatever we can to draw people to hear the gospel, you need to do so on the basis of another biblical text. Does the Bible actually admonish us to concoct means to draw people to the gospel? If so, please cite the text.
Click to expand...


I never said that. Thus the thread, what is permissible?

So are you saying we are not to use any means, not even to invite our neighbor to come??

So what are permissible means.


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## Der Pilger

PeaceMaker said:


> So are you saying we are not to use any means, not even to invite our neighbor to come??



We are to be faithful ambassadors of Christ by announcing the good news that Christ died for sinners and admonishing men to repent and believe the gospel.



> So what are permissible means.



Bringing the gospel to the lost proactively, as Jesus and the apostles did. God does the rest.


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## DonP

ReformedChapin said:


> I'll be honest I loved the contemporary worship of my old arminian church and it's a reason why I am still unconfortable in reformed churches. I simply feel more comfortable in a contemporary setting. Yes the preaching is a million times better and biblical in reformed churches but the worship sometimes feels outdated. Not to mention most reformed churches feel tiny, I come from a mega church of 7000.
> 
> The current reformed church I am visting Christ Reformed part of the URC is probably the biggest I have enountered which I think it has over 200 people still small from my old church. Guess I'm still in the detox process.



Praise God. You may be on the Narrow path now. 

Rom 12:1-2

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. 
NKJV

If proper worship of God came natural to us we would not have to be told how to do it. 

And be glad you are in a church of 200 that is bigger than most I have been in. 
They were more like Paul's churches. A few people sitting around in a house.

Compared to the bigger synagogues or mega Venus Temples


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