# Thanksgiving - Banned by the RPW?



## Boosterseat_91 (Nov 25, 2010)

Recently, I've been studying the RPW and have learned a lot about the Lord's Day and holidays (or holy days). It seems obvious that the RPW bans holidays such as Christmas, Good Friday, and Easter but I was wondering if Thanksgiving would fall into that category as well. I think I've come to a conclusion on the subject based on the knowledge I've gathered, however, I would like to know others opinions as I can't find as much about Thanksgiving and the RPW as I would like.

So I'd appreciate any insight into the matter


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## au5t1n (Nov 25, 2010)

FYI

Westminster Confession of Faith XXI.V:



> V. The reading of the Scriptures with godly fear; the sound preaching, and conscionable hearing of the Word, in obedience unto God with understanding, faith, and reverence; singing of psalms with grace in the heart; as, also, the due administration and worthy receiving of the sacraments instituted by Christ; are all parts of the ordinary religious worship of God: besides religious oaths, and vows, solemn fastings, and *thanksgivings upon special occasion*; which are, in their several times and seasons, to be used in an holy and religious manner.



Also, in Jonah 3 we have an approved example of the king of Ninevah calling for a day of fasting and repentance among the people under his jurisdiction. A day of thanksgiving doesn't seem much different.


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## TimV (Nov 25, 2010)

Again, I wish the "thanks" button was less general. So I could press a button and Austin would know that I was the one who thanked him.


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## Boosterseat_91 (Nov 25, 2010)

Yes, those were my first thoughts. There's nothing inherently wrong in choosing a special day to give thanks. The problem I think, comes in that it is repeated year after year on a fixed date because I read quotes such as these:



> Q. Is there any warrant for anniversary, or stated holidays, now, under the New Testament?
> A. No: these under the Old, being abrogated by the death and resurrection of Christ, there is neither precept nor example in scripture, for any of the yearly holidays observed by Papists, and others: on the contrary, all such days are condemned in bulk, Gal. 4:10; Col. 2:16,17.





> Q. What is the difference between a fast day and a holy day?--A. The day of a fast is changeable, and esteemed no better in itself than another day; but a holy day is fixed to a certain time of the week, year, or moon, and reckoned better in itself. --John Brown, of Haddington (minister and professor, Associate [Presbyterian] Burgher Synod), An Essay Towards an Easy, Plain, Practical, and Extensive Explication of the Assembly's Shorter Catechism (1758).



Both of these I found in this article by Brian Schwertley: The Regulative Principle of Worship and Christmas


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## dudley (Nov 25, 2010)

austinww said:


> FYI
> 
> Westminster Confession of Faith XXI.V:
> 
> ...



I again agree with Austin. That the Westminster Confession of Faith XXI of Religious Worship V *“and thanksgivings upon special occasion; which are, in their several times and seasons, to be used in an holy and religious manner.” *I will also add that the scriptures say in *1 Tim.2:8 “I will therefore that men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.”*As Protestants we also keep to one of the solas of the reformation that all we do is for the honor and glory of God alone which is the way all Christians do celebrate Thanksgiving day.


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## au5t1n (Nov 25, 2010)

TimV said:


> Again, I wish the "thanks" button was less general. So I could press a button and Austin would know that I was the one who thanked him.


 
How fitting would it be if we got the "Thanks" button back on Thanksgiving?


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## dudley (Nov 25, 2010)

TimV said:


> Again, I wish the "thanks" button was less general. So I could press a button and Austin would know that I was the one who thanked him.



I agree with you Tim and I also say thank you to Austin and wish the Thank button could be like we use to have it; so that one would know who was thanking you as well as others.


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## Boosterseat_91 (Nov 25, 2010)

dudley said:


> I again agree with Austin. That the Westminster Confession of Faith XXI of Religious Worship V *“and thanksgivings upon special occasion; which are, in their several times and seasons, to be used in an holy and religious manner.” *I will also add that the scriptures say in *1 Tim.2:8 “I will therefore that men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.”*As Protestants we also keep to one of the solas of the reformation that all we do is for the honor and glory of God alone which is the way all Christians do celebrate Thanksgiving day.



Yes, and I agree. If there is any issue regarding Thanksgiving it would not revolve around the giving of thanks, only that it is a scheduled event, yearly on the last Thursday in November.

What special occasion calls for that? Perhaps, there is none but we sanctify the day in itself making it a "holy day." Thus, it would have to be banned since, from the death and resurrection of Christ, "there is neither precept nor example in scripture, for any of the yearly holidays observed by Papists, and others: on the contrary, all such days are condemned in bulk, Gal. 4:10; Col. 2:16,17."

That would be the issue and I'm wondering if there are any thoughts on this


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## Romans922 (Nov 25, 2010)

Derek Thomas said this about Christmas: "I love it, so long as you don't bring religion into it." He then stated, "(That's the "regulative principle" side of me expressing itself)."*

I would see it the same way for Thanksgiving.

Thanksgiving (american holiday) is not covered under the Westminster Confession quoted above. 

Each individual church decides what days are special occasions to have services of worship focused on thanksgiving. But the american holiday is just that an american holiday, and since then we hold to the RPW, and liberty of conscience, none should be morally forced to worship on a day other than the Lord's Day. God has not decreed that the fourth? Thursday in November be celebrated by the Church as a day of thanksgiving, therefore you should leave the Church and its worship out of this conversation. If you want to celebrate the day with your family or friends, you have the freedom to do so, but don't bring religion into it.
*


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## au5t1n (Nov 25, 2010)

If you want to hold random days of thanksgiving throughout the year, more power to you, but I think the regulative principle generally is meant for the corporate worship service. The papist holy days are days of obligation scheduled to commemorate events in Christ's life on days determined by pagan holidays. Thanksgiving is a day of giving thanks, which occurs yearly on the same day out of prudence and was founded by regulative men.


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## Boosterseat_91 (Nov 26, 2010)

Romans922 said:


> Derek Thomas said this about Christmas: "I love it, so long as you don't bring religion into it." He then stated, "(That's the "regulative principle" side of me expressing itself)."*
> 
> I would see it the same way for Thanksgiving.
> *


*

It seems we do not fully agree on the assumptions within my OP for if Thanksgiving were the same as Christmas, there would be no doubt in my mind that it is unbiblical and altogether dishonoring of the Lord's Day to celebrate. Christmas is a pagan holiday in grafted in the Catholic Church. Since there is no biblical warrant for such a celebration and since Christmas divides the work of redemption (thus dishonoring the Lord's Day since the Lord's Day celebrates the whole work of redemption) and since there is no historical example within the apostolic church of such a celebration and since we do have plentiful historical example of desecrating pagan worship and all things associated with it (gift giving, Christmas trees, holy, decorations, etc...), Christmas should not be celebrated by consistent Christians.

Now as for Thanksgiving, there is scriptural warrant for days of thanks. Some people view Thanksgiving as a commemorative event in remembrance of the pilgrims and Native Americans. Most however, see it as a day of giving thanks to God, or whoever if you're an atheist.




Thanksgiving (american holiday) is not covered under the Westminster Confession quoted above. 

Each individual church decides what days are special occasions to have services of worship focused on thanksgiving. But the american holiday is just that an american holiday, and since then we hold to the RPW, and liberty of conscience, none should be morally forced to worship on a day other than the Lord's Day. God has not decreed that the fourth? Thursday in November be celebrated by the Church as a day of thanksgiving, therefore you should leave the Church and its worship out of this conversation. If you want to celebrate the day with your family or friends, you have the freedom to do so, but don't bring religion into it.

Click to expand...


1) The first thing that got me thinking was that atheists and non-Christians, basically all of North America loves Thanksgiving. Yet, they hate the things of God and His Word (such as the despise the Lord's Day because it is Scriptural).

2) The setting apart of the last Thursday in every November would make Thanksgiving a holiday, or holy day. "A holy day is fixed to a certain time of the week, year, or moon, and reckoned better in itself." There's nothing that really sets off the giving of thanks, we just know it's coming up every last thursday in Nov. However, it is clear in Scripture that the only holy day is the Lord's Day. This was the day that God made holy - if he had wanted more, he could have required more, yet we are not to add or to take away from that. This we observe week after week in accordance with Scripture.


You're right in saying it is an American holiday, as it is probably 1 of the few days a year that pagans thank God. It is not a matter of individual church preference, but whether or not it lines up with the Word of God.

---------- Post added at 11:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:59 PM ----------




austinww said:



If you want to hold random days of thanksgiving throughout the year, more power to you, but I think the regulative principle generally is meant for the corporate worship service.

Click to expand...


Thank you for addressing the issue. 

When you say that "the regulative principle generally is meant for the corporate worship service," I would then ask you if you are against Christmas, Easter, and the like holidays (which you seem to imply that you are, though I could be mistaken)? and if you are why?

Here is an excerpt from the article I linked in response to the this: "There is no question that Christmas has no place in the public worship of God, but isn't it okay to celebrate it privately in the home?":




The problem with this view is that it presupposes that the Regulative Principle only applies to public worship. There is no biblical evidence to support the idea that the Regulative Principle was only meant for public worship. In fact, the biblical evidence supports the opposite view. Cain was condemned for an innovation in private worship (Gen. 4:2-8). Noah, in family worship, offered clean animals to God (Gen. 8:20-21). God was pleased and accepted Noah's offering on behalf of himself and his family. Abraham, Jacob and Job offered sacrifices to God in private or family worship, according to God's Word. God accepted these lawful offerings. The idea that innovations in worship are permitted in family and private worship is unbiblical; it is totally arbitrary because it is not based on divine revelation. If an innovation in public worship displeases God, then how does it please Him in private worship? Would it not be permissible, under such premises, to have little shrines in our homes where we burn incense, wear surplices, miters and such, as long as we keep such things out of public meetings?

Click to expand...




austinww said:



The papist holy days are days of obligation scheduled to commemorate events in Christ's life on days determined by pagan holidays. Thanksgiving is a day of giving thanks, which occurs yearly on the same day out of prudence and was founded by regulative men.

Click to expand...

 
Are you speaking of Abraham Lincoln here? Cause I don't believe he was regulative...*


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## au5t1n (Nov 26, 2010)

Romans922 said:


> If you want to celebrate the day with your family or friends, you have the freedom to do so, but don't bring religion into it.


 
I agree with this, as long as it is understood that giving thanks before the meal is an acceptable religious activity; but then, it's probably a good practice for Christians to give thanks before all meals.

---------- Post added at 11:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:09 PM ----------




Boosterseat_91 said:


> austinww said:
> 
> 
> > The papist holy days are days of obligation scheduled to commemorate events in Christ's life on days determined by pagan holidays. Thanksgiving is a day of giving thanks, which occurs yearly on the same day out of prudence and was founded by regulative men.
> ...


 
No, Lincoln didn't establish Thanksgiving--my understanding is that we attribute that to the Pilgrims (and hey, this is the _Puritan_board after all).

---------- Post added at 11:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 PM ----------

Does the RPW address privately commemorating national events of God's providence, or does it address the commanded elements of the church's worship? It is more relevant to Christmas because Christmas is a church holy day for celebrating an event in Christ's life. Thanksgiving is just inviting family over, praying and giving thanks, and eating a large meal. There is no uncommanded worship here, which is what the RPW forbids.

---------- Post added at 11:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:18 PM ----------

By the way, if I didn't say it already, thanks for taking the RPW seriously.


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## puritanpilgrim (Nov 26, 2010)

> No, Lincoln didn't establish Thanksgiving--my understanding is that we attribute that to the Pilgrims (and hey, this is the Puritanboard after all).



It was established by George Washington as a time for Americans to celebrate the provision that God had given to the United States.. The story of the pilgrims was fabricated back in the sixties to take God out of the celebration.



> Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor; and
> 
> Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me "to recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness":
> 
> ...


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## dudley (Nov 26, 2010)

austinww said:


> If you want to hold random days of thanksgiving throughout the year, more power to you, but I think the regulative principle generally is meant for the corporate worship service. The papist holy days are days of obligation scheduled to commemorate events in Christ's life on days determined by pagan holidays. Thanksgiving is a day of giving thanks, which occurs yearly on the same day out of prudence and was founded by regulative men.



Again I agree completely with Austin and say ditto! and Amen!

Thanksgiving means giving thanks, showing gratitude to our God for all the blessings we have in our lives. Its not about formal regulative worship. I thank God when I arrive to my destination safely each day because I ask Gods protection when I go on the highway. It is fitting that we give thanks to God on our own time aside form the Lords day. 

Taking things for granted is an occupational hazard of the human condition. It is easy to forget that all things come from God. Whatever we have is a gift from our Father, “Who art in Heaven,” and on earth, and in every heart and mind that permits him entrance. We are in essence giving all honor and glory to Him that granted us so many blessings.

After all, the Pilgrims gave thanks to God, mostly for surviving, but surely for the food they had that helped them to survive and ultimately prosper. There is nothing papist about giving thanks to God and setting a national day aside for all to privately with their family do so. To ban Thanksgiving seems to me to be ultimately anti American and a denial of who we are as a people, a nation founded under God by God fearing Reformed Protestants! If you have ever been to a totalitarian state and lived inside its walls as I have done than perhaps you might feel differently.


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## Boosterseat_91 (Nov 26, 2010)

> Thanksgiving, as it is, is a day instituted by a lawful authority (civil magistrate) and is not a religious "holiday" _per se_ in the sense of setting it aside for religious worship. Rather, at the behest of the civil magistrate it was intended to be a day set aside in remembrance of God's provision and watchcare. "Christmas" and "Easter," on the other hand are days which have been exalted to be on par with the sabbath and that which they allegedly commemorate (Christ's birth and resurrection) are biblically historical events. Since Scripture appoints neither of those days as holidays set apart for religious worship they are (or should be) rejected by the Church. Thanksgiving is a day not *required* to be observed but is a perfectly valid day to give God thanks as encouraged by the magistrate. We would, however, reject it if the civil magistrate commanded that we set it aside as a day of religious worship. So, what I'm saying is I believe the WCF Framers are rightly distinguishing between religious "holy days" and a civil "holiday" set aside by a lawful authority for the purpose of fasting/thanksgiving/prayer.


 
Well, actually I think the government exalts them all above the Lord's Day (though for Christmas, they might call it Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, or the holidays...). Many work places shut down or minimize labor on a given holiday and yet do no such thing for the Lord's Day, Thanksgiving included (especially since it is always during the work week). It is made a sabbath unto man. Does this holiday, along with all the others, seem to put itself above the Lord's Day then?

---------- Post added at 01:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:31 AM ----------




austinww said:


> Does the RPW address privately commemorating national events of God's providence, or does it address the commanded elements of the church's worship? It is more relevant to Christmas because Christmas is a church holy day for celebrating an event in Christ's life. Thanksgiving is just inviting family over, praying and giving thanks, and eating a large meal. There is no uncommanded worship here, which is what the RPW forbids.



Thanks for the insight. I recently began studying the RPW and it is clearly needed to address the commanded elements in church worship. But it also seems to me that it is needed in private worship. I will just reiterate the question which I quoted previously. 

"Would it not be permissible, under such premises, to have little shrines in our homes where we burn incense, wear surplices, miters and such, as long as we keep such things out of public meetings?" The question which might be simpler which comes to my mind is, Can you eat food while you worship in private? (eh, I think it's a more practical or modern/relevant question.) I'm not sure about all this but at this time it would seem that if it is not acceptable in public worship then it is not acceptable in private worship. 



> By the way, if I didn't say it already, thanks for taking the RPW seriously.



 Thanks be to God! I just want to follow it to the best of my ability.


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## Romans922 (Nov 26, 2010)

Boosterseat_91 said:


> It seems we do not fully agree on the assumptions within my OP for if Thanksgiving were the same as Christmas,




It is the same as Christmas in the sense that MEN implemented it and not God. God never gave us a specific day (fourth Thursday in November) to celebrate a day of thanks. If He had we would not be talking about this. But He doesn't. So can you force someone to worship via a service of thanksgiving on such a day? No. The RPW is specifically about the worship of God. Therefore, you are talking about when and where and what and how do we worship...God answers all of these questions. He also says we should have days of giving thanks. He doesn't say when. Therefore as it has to do with this question concerning the RPW, no man should be forced to celebrate thanksgiving as it is a man-made day. 

NOW, if we are talking outside of the RPW, can I celebrate with my family? Yes, by all means, as long as it isn't contrary to the ways of holiness, and is righteous, then if you want...do it. You have freedom to do so. But once you bring 'religion' into it, you've gone too far.


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## nasa30 (Nov 26, 2010)

puritanpilgrim said:


> The story of the pilgrims was fabricated back in the sixties to take God out of the celebration.


 
That is a pretty broad claim that does not do justice to why the people in Plymouth were here in the first place. Have you ever read the farewell letter from Pastor John Robinson or read William Bradfords writings?


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## Boosterseat_91 (Nov 26, 2010)

Romans922 said:


> It is the same as Christmas in the sense that MEN implemented it and not God. God never gave us a specific day (fourth Thursday in November) to celebrate a day of thanks. If He had we would not be talking about this. But He doesn't. So can you force someone to worship via a service of thanksgiving on such a day? No. The RPW is specifically about the worship of God. Therefore, you are talking about when and where and what and how do we worship...God answers all of these questions. He also says we should have days of giving thanks. He doesn't say when. Therefore as it has to do with this question concerning the RPW, no man should be forced to celebrate thanksgiving as it is a man-made day.



Yes, that makes sense. Thank you for the helpful reply.



> NOW, if we are talking outside of the RPW, can I celebrate with my family? Yes, by all means, as long as it isn't contrary to the ways of holiness, and is righteous, then if you want...do it. You have freedom to do so. But once you bring 'religion' into it, you've gone too far.



In regards of Christmas, my point was that you can't really take Christ's birth (or the religious part) out of Christmas and still have the tree, the presents, the decoration, etc...and still gather together on that day as a family and say you aren't celebrating Christmas. Those were all apart of pagan worship. Would that be celebrating in "righteousness"?


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## toddpedlar (Nov 26, 2010)

puritanpilgrim said:


> The story of the pilgrims was fabricated back in the sixties to take God out of the celebration.


 
You're kidding, right? Where in the world did you get that idea?


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## Boosterseat_91 (Nov 26, 2010)

> Respectfully, I don't think you see the distinction I made. Insofar as I understand it, Thanksgiving is government instituted day to be set aside for giving thanks, etc. "Christmas" and "Easter" are not days set aside by the magistrate, regardless of whether her institutions recognize them are not. I've never implied that those days aren't exalted above the sabbath, and a cursory glance of my posts regarding said subject would easily show that. As far as I know, the magistrate's decree pertaining to Thanksgiving requires no place of business to shutdown, etc. That has been at the behest of whichever business and is certainly a right of said business owner to do so if he so pleases. I cannot read the intent of his heart, nor anyone else's who participates in the observance of Thanksgiving. _If_ they're exalting it above the sabbath, then shame on them. If not, then there's no problem for them observing it, so long as they're not seeing fit to bind the consciences of anyone else. There is but one holy day, the sabbath, and it is to be set aside once each week. This, however, does not mean the civil magistrate may not appoint a day for thanksgiving, prayer, or fasting pertaining to good providences which have been given toward a nation, a people, etc.



I understood your point and I think it was very well explained. Christmas, Easter, and Good Friday (along with many other Catholic holidays) were all instituted by the church and Thanksgiving is a civil holiday. The question I posed was simply for clarification on whether or not Thanksgiving could be on par with the sabbath. 

Thank you for your helpful posts, I'm glad I still ate my turkey yesterday


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## Edward (Nov 26, 2010)

puritanpilgrim said:


> The story of the pilgrims was fabricated back in the sixties to take God out of the celebration.



That's not a factually accurate to state that the story of the Pilgrim celebration of Thanksgiving was a creation of the 60s. Please see the* 1905 *Encyclopaedia Britannica, Vol 29 discussion of Thanksgiving:

"The earliest harvest thanksgiving in America was kept by the Pilgrim Fathers at Plymouth in 1621 and was repeated often during that and the ensuing century It became customary in fact for the governors of the colonies to appoint a fast day in the spring and a day of thanksgiving in the autumn."


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## Scott1 (Nov 26, 2010)

As there are some questions about the history of Thanksgiving, here is some historical information:

There is substantial evidence to suggest the Pilgrims did celebrate a kind of Thanksgiving, though not every year nor on the same day or fixed time of year. It is impossible to read William Bradford's diaries and not conclude the Pilgrims were celebrating some sort of Thanksgiving early on.
William Bradford Web Site

Thereafter, days of Thanksgiving were proclaimed by the Continental Congress, President Washington, President Lincoln, and later by Congress and President Roosevelt. Remember as a federation of states, these United States each mostly designated their own Thanksgiving Day, which often were at different times of the year from each other.

A well-written summary and reflection on this history is at the Presbyterian Layman:
The Layman Online

Virtually all the official proclamations source national dependence on and gratitude toward God as basis for the holiday.


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## dudley (Nov 26, 2010)

Scott1 said:


> As there are some questions about the history of Thanksgiving, here is some historical information:
> 
> There is substantial evidence to suggest the Pilgrims did celebrate a kind of Thanksgiving, though not every year nor on the same day or fixed time of year. It is impossible to read William Bradford's diaries and not conclude the Pilgrims were celebrating some sort of Thanksgiving early on.
> William Bradford Web Site
> ...



Scot, Thank you for your post and also Edward and some of the others who have made and stated historical accuracy about our very valued American Holiday, Thanksgiving, not Holyday. As an Historian myself ; your explanation, Scot, is completely accurate. I was becoming extremely frustrated reading some of the comments on this thread. 

I also thank Austin and Joshua who with some others have made it clear that the day of Giving thanks to God for our blessings is not a papist holyday of obligation where one is required to attend and participate in services at church. It is a day proclaimed to be a day where we give thanks to God with our families for all our blessings and celebrate together as a nation the four freedoms we cherish; freedom of speech, freedom to worship, freedom from want, and finally freedom from fear.

Also my understanding of the RPW(Regulative Principal of Worship) is not itself a doctrine, but is a formula stemming out of the Second Commandment. The command to see to God's commands, and to neither add to nor subtract from them. 

I am only a Reformed Protestant since 2007 so perhaps I may need some further clarification here, although my understanding is that we do not mandate a service of worship on Thanksgiving on Thanksgiving day to be like the Lords Day. So I do not see the RPW banning thanksgiving day. As an American and a patriot I believe we “render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars’ and to God the things that are Gods alone“. 

On January 6, 1941 Franklin D. Roosevelt gave an address to Congress. What he said then is as true now in 2010. Maybe more Americans need and perhaps some here on the PB need to understand American history a little better. 

Please read what Roosevelt said in 1941, Norman Rockwell, the great American artist and illustrator also painted four beautiful pieces commemorating these valued American principals based on our Protestant Christian heritage and principals we wish for the whole world even the papists and any modern day dictatorial form of government to move towards. 

Roosevelt said on January 6th 1941:

*“In the future days, which we seek to make secure, we look forward to a world founded upon four essential human freedoms. 

The first is freedom of speech and expression -- everywhere in the world. 

The second is freedom of every person to worship God in his own way -- everywhere in the world.

The third is freedom from want -- which, translated into world terms, means economic understandings which will secure to every nation a healthy peacetime life for its inhabitants -- everywhere in the world. 

The fourth is freedom from fear -- which, translated into world terms, means a world-wide reduction of armaments to such a point and in such a thorough fashion that no nation will be in a position to commit an act of physical aggression against any neighbor-- anywhere in the world.

That is no vision of a distant millennium. It is a definite basis for a kind of world attainable in our own time and generation. That kind of world is the very antithesis of the so-called new order of tyranny which the dictators seek to create with the crash of a bomb.

To that new order we oppose the greater conception -- the moral order. A good society is able to face schemes of world domination and foreign revolutions alike without fear. 
Since the beginning of our American history, we have been engaged in change -- in a perpetual peaceful revolution -- a revolution which goes on steadily, quietly adjusting itself to changing conditions -- without the concentration camp or the quick-lime in the ditch. The world order which we seek is the cooperation of free countries, working together in a friendly, civilized society. 

This nation has placed its destiny in the hands and heads and hearts of its millions of free men and women; and its faith in freedom under the guidance of God. Freedom means the supremacy of human rights everywhere. Our support goes to those who struggle to gain those rights or keep them. Our strength is our unity of purpose. 
To that high concept there can be no end save victory.” *From Congressional Record, 1941, Vol. 87, Pt. I. 

To further clarify the issue and questions raised on this thread I will paste here some additional factual history. 

On Thanksgiving Day, November 23, 1939, Franklin Roosevelt carved the turkey at the annual Thanksgiving Dinner at Warm Springs, Georgia, and wished all Americans across the country a Happy Thanksgiving. Unfortunately, his greeting went unanswered in some states; many Americans were not observing Thanksgiving on the same day as the President. Instead, they were waiting to carve their turkeys on the following Thursday because November 30th in many states was the official Thanksgiving Day. Two Thanksgivings? Why were Americans celebrating a national holiday on two different days? 

At the beginning of Franklin Roosevelt's presidency, Thanksgiving was not a fixed holiday; it was up to the President to issue a Thanksgiving Proclamation to announce what date the holiday would fall on. However, Thanksgiving was always the last Thursday in November because that was the day President Abraham Lincoln observed the holiday when he declared Thanksgiving a national holiday in 1863. Franklin Roosevelt continued that tradition, but he soon found that tradition was difficult to keep in extreme circumstances such as the Great Depression. His first Thanksgiving in office, 1933, fell on November 30th, the last day of the month, because November had five Thursdays that year. Since statistics showed that most people did not do their Christmas shopping until after Thanksgiving, business leaders feared they would lose money, especially during the Depression, because there were only 24 shopping days between Thanksgiving and Christmas. They asked Franklin Roosevelt to make Thanksgiving one week earlier. President Roosevelt ignored those concerns in 1933, but when Thanksgiving once again threatened to fall on the last day of November in 1939, FDR reconsidered the request and moved the date of Thanksgiving up one week. Thanksgiving 1939 would be held, President Roosevelt proclaimed, on November 23rd and not November 30th. 

Changing the date of Thanksgiving seemed harmless enough, but in actuality proved quite controversial. It was so upsetting that thousands of letters poured into the White House once President Roosevelt announced the date change. Some retailers were pleased because they hoped the extra week of Christmas shopping would increase profits, but smaller businesses complained they would lose business to larger stores. Other companies that depended on Thanksgiving as the last Thursday of November lost money; calendar makers were the worst hit because they printed calendars years in advance and FDR made their calendars out of date for the next two years. Schools were also disrupted by Roosevelt's decision; most schools had already scheduled vacations and annual Thanksgiving Day football games by the time they learned of Thanksgiving's new date and had to decide whether or not to reschedule everything. Moreover, many Americans were angry that Roosevelt tried to alter such a long-standing tradition and American values just to help businesses make more money.

As opposition grew, some states took matters into their own hands and defied the Presidential Proclamation. Some governors declared November 30th as Thanksgiving. And so, depending upon where one lived, Thanksgiving was celebrated on the 23rd and the 30th. (Also depending on the initial calendar year even under our current system Thanksgiving can fall as early as November 22nd and as late as November 29th.) 

This was worse than changing the date in the first place because families that lived in states such as New York did not have the same day off as family members in states such as Connecticut! Family and friends were unable to celebrate the holiday together. 

1939 to 1941
Abraham Lincoln's successors as president followed his example of annually declaring the final Thursday in November to be Thanksgiving. But in 1939, President Franklin D. Roosevelt broke with this tradition. November had five Thursdays that year (instead of the usual four), and Roosevelt declared the fourth Thursday as Thanksgiving rather than the fifth one. Although many popular histories state otherwise, he made clear that his plan was to establish the holiday on the next-to-last Thursday in the month instead of the last one. 

With the country still in the midst of The Great Depression, Roosevelt thought an earlier Thanksgiving would give merchants a longer period to sell goods before Christmas. Increasing profits and spending during this period, Roosevelt hoped, would help bring the country out of the Depression. At the time, advertising goods for Christmas before Thanksgiving was considered inappropriate. Fred Lazarus, Jr., founder of the Federated Department Stores (later Macy's), is credited with convincing Roosevelt to push Thanksgiving back a week to expand the shopping season.

Republicans decried the change, calling it an affront to the memory of Lincoln. People began referring to Nov. 30 as the "Republican Thanksgiving" and Nov. 23 as the "Democratic Thanksgiving" or "Franksgiving". Regardless of the politics, many localities had made a tradition of celebrating on the last Thursday, and many football teams had a tradition of playing their final games of the season on Thanksgiving; with their schedules set well in advance, they could not change. Since a presidential declaration of Thanksgiving Day was not legally binding, Roosevelt's change was widely disregarded. Twenty-three states went along with Roosevelt's recommendation, 22 did not, and some, like Texas, could not decide and took both days as government holidays.

In 1940 and 1941, years in which November had four Thursdays, Roosevelt declared the third one as Thanksgiving. As in 1939, some states went along with the change while others retained the traditional last-Thursday date.

1942 to present
On October 6, 1941, both houses of the U.S. Congress passed a joint resolution fixing the traditional last-Thursday date for the holiday beginning in 1942. However, in December of that year the Senate passed an amendment to the resolution that split the difference by requiring that Thanksgiving be observed annually on the fourth Thursday of November, which was sometimes the last Thursday and sometimes (less frequently) the next to last. 
On December 26, 1941 President Roosevelt signed this bill, for the first time making the date of Thanksgiving a matter of federal law.

Franklin Roosevelt observed Thanksgiving on the second to last Thursday of November for two more years, but the amount of public outrage prompted Congress to pass a law on December 26, 1941, ensuring that all Americans would celebrate a unified Thanksgiving on the fourth Thursday of November every year. 

Also note that many Americans at the time believed that the Pilgrims chose the last Thursday in November to be Thanksgiving, but that is not the case. Although Americans had celebrated days of thanksgiving before, it was not until 1863 when President Lincoln began the observance of Thanksgiving in November.


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## Jack K (Nov 27, 2010)

Edward said:


> puritanpilgrim said:
> 
> 
> > The story of the pilgrims was fabricated back in the sixties to take God out of the celebration.
> ...



Yes, clearly the Pilgrims celebrated thanksgiving feasts. So I wouldn't say the story told to schoolchildren these days is fabricated. But it has been adapted somewhat to fit today's sensibilities. The original Pilgrim Thanksgiving was an occasion of giving thanks _to God_. The story as it's told today often makes it a celebration of diversity and peace, giving thanks _to the Indians_ for their friendship. I even saw one Thankgiving pageant where it was a made into a celebration of religious diversity; the Pilgrims thanked their God, then the Indians thanked their great spirits. Both groups found the entire event very uplifting.


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## Peairtach (Nov 27, 2010)

The problem with Christmas and Easter, is that if we were asked for this kind worship by God, we would expect Him to say something about it in His Word.

Having said that, I do participate in a cultural sort of way, for the sake of friends and relatives, although I was brought up not keeping Christmas and don't feel any obligation to it.

In a similar sense, I don't feel any obligation from God's Word, to sing man made hymns, or to praise God on any particular musical instrument, although you may find me doing so from time to time, for other reasons.


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## Edward (Nov 27, 2010)

Jack K said:


> The story as it's told today often makes it a celebration of diversity and peace,



But that would date to the last 20 years or so, not the 1960s. The move from 'melting pot' to 'mosaic' was a late 80s - early 90s construct.


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## Scott1 (Nov 27, 2010)

Jack K said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> > puritanpilgrim said:
> ...


 
There is more to the "story of the first Thanksgiving":
John A. Murray: Strangers, Saints and Indians - WSJ.com

"Squanto" the Indian who greeted the Pilgrims, already spoke English, already was a Christian- another amazing part of the Providence of God. Remember, the Pilgrims had aimed for Virginia but were blown off course by a storm, and only then landed at Plymouth Rock in what is now Massachusetts.

God's Providence in all this, and sending a believer to greet them, teach them to grow food and survive in the New World,
more reasons for thanksgiving.


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## au5t1n (Nov 27, 2010)

And on that note, anyone who has not read _Of Plymouth Plantation_ by William Bradford really ought to consider doing so. I think I got my copy for less than $2.


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## Grimmson (Nov 27, 2010)

I personally do not see the RPW as having a direct relationship in banning a national holiday. We have Jesus for example celebrating a national holiday (see John 10:22-3), Feast of Dedication (now called Hanukkah), that was not set forth from scripture. Therefore the celebration of such a holiday as it points to the glory of God should be allowed for our people. Now the question falls to whether or not such a holiday should be celebrated by the church? If such a day is to be devoted to giving thanks to God then I see no reason why a group of Christians privately or corporately should not give thanks to God for being who God is and for his bestowing life and salvation to his people. My question would be why anyone would not want to do that privately or corporately? It should be an optional day of worship, but if such a holiday season allows for us the time to gather together to give thanks to God in worship and fellowship together in a church or our homes I think we should take advantage of it. 

Why do non-Christians love Thanksgiving? Because it is a time to gather together to enjoy football, food, and family; not always in that order. Yet we have something more glorious to celebrate, not working of God in his providence and the sacrifice of Christ for our sins. Thanksgiving to us would have different significance compared to the non-Christian. The same would be true for the celebration of Easter, whereby Christians and non-Christians associate different meanings.

I do not think celebrating Thanksgiving is to place honor above the Lord’s Day, but instead allows us not just one day of worshipping together, but two. Now this is not to be misused to force someone’s conscience to force them to celebrate on another day in the week. But instead should allow them the liberty to gather together to worship God. To deny such an honor in my option shows a lack of desire to want to worship God together through out the week, when such an opportunity presents itself. I do not see how a Christian would not want to be with the brethren on more then one day a week. Such a desire could show the lack of unity we have to worship our God as a body to the world. 

Thanksgiving is a sabbath, but not a Christian Sabbath. There is nothing wrong with celebrating a non-Christian sabbath, we do not see in scripture not banning of civil holidays. It fact it seems allowable for the conscience of the believer. Therefore it is not to be seen as equal with the Lord’s Day, but instead should be seen as a day of rest and relaxation which we can then use to celebrate our Lord together in our homes and churches. It is not a day that is to be binding on the conscience of believers. 

I short, it is another day we can celebrate and give thanks to God for all that he has done for us. We live in a world where even church folks hide in their homes, with little or no interaction with the world and to each other. The world sees this reality of a lack of desire to spend time with those of like minded people in the faith, along with the desire not to use such opportunities to give service to those that need within and outside of the church. It should be in our nature to devote such days not to the feeding of our own gluttonous natures, and instead use this time for fellowship, worship to God, and Christian service to one another. It is not a day set aside for preaching or for celebrating the sacraments, but if such a church wanted to do so then I do not see why that should not be allowed since scripture does not assign specific day for preaching and using of the sacraments. It should be based on the conscience of the church, and the individual who is being taught the scripture and under care of the church. It is an issue of conscience to celebrate Thanksgiving, and not an issue of the RPW as it extends to Sunday Worship. In an age where family worship and devotions are lacking in our churches, I can see this day as being helpful to one another to praising God together as a church and a family. So instead of looking into our own pleasures like sports and food, we should look to the one that has giving us such pleasure and thank him for it. Thus turning our attention to God, who deserves such praise, and not on the feeding of our own carnal desires. Such attention is not banned by the RPW.


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## NaphtaliPress (Nov 27, 2010)

Historically, the regulative principle has not been used against purely civil holidays. In the defenses of holy days the days of Purim were and are often brought in to justify them. George Gillespie in his _English Popish Ceremonies _amongst other things says the following (text from my revision of the 1993 Naphtali Press edition, forthcoming ????):2. It appears, that the days of Purim were only appointed to be days of civil mirth and gladness, such as are in use with us, when we set out bonfires, and other tokens of civil joy, for some memorable benefit which the kingdom or commonwealth has received. For they are not called the holidays of Purim, but simply the days of Purim, “days of feasting and joy, and of sending portions one to another” (Esth. 9:19, 22). No word of any worship of God in those days. And whereas it seems to Bishop Lindsey, that those days were holy, because of that rest which was observed upon them; he must know that the text interprets itself, and it is evident from vs. 16 and 22, that this rest was not a rest from labor, for waiting upon the worshipping of God, but only a rest from their enemies.[FONT=&quot][1][/FONT]​[FONT=&quot][1][/FONT]_ Proc. in Perth Assembly,_ part. 3, p. 30. [Lindsay, _Proceedings_, third pagination (1625 ed.), 30.]​David Calderwood makes the same distinction in his refutation of the holy days. Also, during the time of the Westminster Assembly, while they were concerned to outlaw "holy days" they were concerned in their banning days like xmas, to perserve days off work for servants, etc. So, all that to say, the framers of the RPW of the second reformation understood the distinction between a holy day and a civil holiday.


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