# Regenerate but not baptised?



## satz (Jan 5, 2005)

I guess this is primarily for baptists and those who don't believe in infant baptism. Is there any difference between an elect, regenerate individual who has been baptised and one who has not? ( Apart from the obvious that the one who has not is in disobidence ). Is the one who has not been baptised in anyway spiritually...different? Does the Holy Spirit work in him any differently at all? 

So how would you baptists view those who were baptised as infants? Are they missing out on something in their christian walk? 

thoughts?


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## Joseph Ringling (Jan 5, 2005)

As someone new to Reformed Theology that has grew up only being taught believers baptism I would ask the opposite. What are my three young children missing out on by not being baptised?


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## ReformedWretch (Jan 6, 2005)

Ok Joe...allow an ignorant new comer to reformed theology to give this a shot. Someone will correct me if I make a mistake here. (Or many)

Simply put (hopefully) infant baptism is the idea that your children are brought under God's covenant they way circumcision used to be used in the OT. Some seem to believe that salvation is promised eventually (to you and your family) and some think it is not a 100% given that salvation will come to your children.

Baptising your children is a sign that you yeild to the covenant as a family.

I was going to continue but lets wait and see how I've done so far (be merciful to me fella's as I am still getting a grasp on this myself).


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## Charismatic Calvinist (Jan 6, 2005)

> _Originally posted by satz_
> Is there any difference between an elect, regenerate individual who has been baptised and one who has not? ( Apart from the obvious that the one who has not is in disobidence ). Is the one who has not been baptised in anyway spiritually...different? Does the Holy Spirit work in him any differently at all?



I think you answered the question rather...just a matter of obedience. I don't see anything in Scripture that would indicate a less than/greater than degree of Holy Spirit activity in the life of the regenerate believer, other than enjoying a clean conscience toward God in that he has been obedient to the commandment.


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## Charismatic Calvinist (Jan 6, 2005)

Whoops! I meant, "rather well."


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## Scott (Jan 7, 2005)

"œI think you answered the question rather...just a matter of obedience."

It is more than obedience. The sacraments are one of the ways by which Christ communicates the benefits of His redemption. 

The Shorter Catechism describes the Reformed view:
Q. 88. What are the outward means whereby Christ communicateth to us the benefits of redemption?
A. The outward and ordinary means whereby Christ communicateth to us the benefits of redemption, are his ordinances, especially the word, sacraments, and prayer; all which are made effectual to the elect for salvation.

Further the sacraments are effectual to salvation.
Q. 91. How do the sacraments become effectual means of salvation?
A. The sacraments become effectual means of salvation, not from any virtue in them, or in him that doth administer them; but only by the blessing of Christ, and the working of his Spirit in them that by faith receive them. 

In terms of scripture, you can see the scripture references about whether baptism is about more than obedience, there are tons are relevant scriptures. See these two for example:
"¢ Mark:16:15-16: He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."
"¢ 1 Peter 3:18-22: "œFor Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him."


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## satz (Jan 7, 2005)

thanks for all the answers...

regarding's Scott's post on Q91 of the shorter Catechism and baptism being effectual to salvation. I think this is what i was getting at.

baptists (correct me if i am wrong!) hold that baptism is only validly administered to a believer of the gospel. By this reasoning, are not those who were baptised as infants effectively not baptised at all?

How then do you view your presbyterian or other brothers who have been infant-baptised?


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## Scott Bushey (Jan 7, 2005)

> _Originally posted by satz_
> thanks for all the answers...
> 
> regarding's Scott's post on Q91 of the shorter Catechism and baptism being effectual to salvation. I think this is what i was getting at.
> ...



Credo baptists do hold to that premise. However, there is no more the guarantee in regards to profession as a non professing infant. Confession does not salvation make a man.

[Edited on 1-8-2005 by Scott Bushey]


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## Puritan Sailor (Jan 7, 2005)

> _Originally posted by satz_
> How then do you view your presbyterian or other brothers who have been infant-baptised?


Most baptists I know require a new baptism by immersion no matter if they were or were not baptized as infants. They do not recognize any baptism as valid except believers baptism by immersion. There are a few exceptions to this but that is the general standard for most baptists both reformed and arminian.


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## Ivan (Jan 7, 2005)

[/quote] Most baptists I know require a new baptism by immersion no matter if they were or were not baptized as infants. They do not recognize any baptism as valid except believers baptism by immersion. There are a few exceptions to this but that is the general standard for most baptists both reformed and arminian. [/quote]

True, but I've seen some cracks in the wall. 

We have a man who attends are church, who was baptized as an infant, no believer's baptism. He participates in every way in our church. However, he has never offically been recognized as a member.


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## Larry Hughes (Jan 11, 2005)

My wife and I were just discussing the Lord's Supper and she out of the blue asked me a question about baptism that I couldn't answer. It was one of those show stopper questions. 

She was baptized/re-baptized three times over her life. None as an infant and all in baptist churches. When she asked me I just started to answer then froze.

She asked me, "Which one of my baptisms was the real one." With mouth wide open I thought and thought, attempted an answer, thought some more and said, "I honestly don't know how to answer that - that is a good question." Because she cannot pinpoint her actual conversion time. I said from the baptistic perspective I honestly cannot answer the question. I honestly tried to stay in my baptistic mode of thinking to see if I could generate an answer. But finally I caved in and said, "However, if I understand reformed theology correctly I'd have to say the first one because the emphasis is on God's faithful sign and not man's faithfulness."

I'm mean this is real life stuff. That question caught me off guard.

Larry


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## turmeric (Jan 12, 2005)

I was also baptised 3 times. I was regenerate the third time, and obviously a credobaptist at that time.


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## Ianterrell (Jan 12, 2005)

Baptized twice (or thrice if you count my "baptism in the holy spirit" as a Pentecostal) 

Shabba shurkie buboo dabliek (speaking in tongues)


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## turmeric (Jan 12, 2005)

Wow, that was edifying!
Can you interpret?


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## Joseph Ringling (Jan 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by turmeric_
> Wow, that was edifying!
> Can you interpret?



I actually have the gift of interpreting tounges. He said he wants you to send me a thousand dollar love offering and says you'll be blessed one hundred fold.::bigsmile:




> Baptized twice (or thrice if you count my "baptism in the holy spirit" as a Pentecostal)
> 
> Shabba shurkie buboo dabliek (speaking in tongues)



I remember when I was around 13 or 14 a group of "elders" at the Pentecostal church we used to attend laid hands on me and prayed in tounges that I would receive the gift of the "Holy Spirit." They kept saying, it's right there just speak it, just receive it. As I think back on that time in my life I wonder, why didn't I run as fast as I could away from those people?


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## Ianterrell (Jan 12, 2005)

Right its pretty scary stuff. The modern tongues movement and the free will dilemna are closely linked in my opinion. Notice the self-deterministic strain the charismatic goes through to obtain the gift of glossalia?


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## Joseph Ringling (Jan 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Ianterrell_
> Right its pretty scary stuff. The modern tongues movement and the free will dilemna are closely linked in my opinion. Notice the self-deterministic strain the charismatic goes through to obtain the gift of glossalia?



 Scary indeed!


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## Puritan Sailor (Jan 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by skinsfanjoe_
> I remember when I was around 13 or 14 a group of "elders" at the Pentecostal church we used to attend laid hands on me and prayed in tounges that I would receive the gift of the "Holy Spirit." They kept saying, it's right there just speak it, just receive it.



Wow. I had almost the exact same scenario several times. They kept saying "just speak and it will come." and I would speak, and it would be english. Guess that was my gifted tongue


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## Joseph Ringling (Jan 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Paul manata_
> hibidy hibidy hibidy



I heard that sermon many a time!


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## Larry Hughes (Jan 12, 2005)

My wife had an experience with this before we met, she came from a pretty charismatic baptist background. I asked her about it because I'd never been exposed to it. My former background is more from the opposite end of the spectrum (skeptic). She said two charismatic guys and her boy friend at the time were there. They told them to pray for the gift of tongues and they would receive it.

Highly interested I asked, "What happened?" She said, "Well my boyfriend thought we were all nuts" I affirmed as she continued, "And I started to make this sound." I asked, "Now really and be honest either way, was it you or something external to you." She said, "Well it was really me but they kept pressing and as I garbled stuff out they coaxed and encouraged it and it kept coming...but I believed it as true as true in my mind back then."

When we married I ran into a similar issue at her hometown and I honestly gave it a try. And it was an honest effort coming from an ex-atheistic/agnostic/skeptic educated in the field of science, no joking. I was fresh and new to the faith and I thought, "These people have been Christians much longer than me and say some pretty fantastic things, maybe my faith is weak considering my background, I'll try." I was struggling as deeply a believer at this point, plus I loved my wife to be, so I gave it an honest try. 

In this scenario it was this thing called theophostic counciling in which the pastor does this retro-grade type of pschology to find out what is spiritually binding you. Flee if you ever run into it! The freedom comes when you visualize a past bad event, look around to see if you see Jesus in the scene and see if/what he says to you. People end up having images of sitting on God the Father's lap, yea it is that bad! But, I really really gave it a try, I wanted to be a strong freed Christian.

So, I sat there and we get to this past 3rd grade event and the pastor asks me the BIG question, "Do you see anybody around." I'm thinking images in my head. "No." "Look harder, do you see Jesus?" "Yea, maybe, I think so" (I didn't only my conjured image at the time flickering in and out of the true memory of the event.) "Is he saying anything to you?" "No." This went on for a bit. Then at that point my skeptic kicked in along with my desire to be freed and I thought to myself, "How do I know I'm not just making this up in my head." And rather sticking with that I thought further and paniced, "Maybe God doesn't want to talk to me, what is wrong with me!" (1/2 skepticism + 1/2 fanaticism = deadly internal mixture) So, I never was "freed". The devastating part back then was that the pastor said at the end, "He's not getting it." AT that time, that devasted me more because I wondered even more why God wasn't helping me the way he did all these others. 

That piled onto my doubts and struggles and assurance and for about three more years I struggled. Ironically, those same years the reformed faith was really beginning to come to me. It was an all out internal war in my mind. Every day literally every minute I was consumed by it, I could hardly work it consumed me so much. The only peace I got was sleeping at night when I could shut my brain off.

Larry


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## turmeric (Jan 13, 2005)

Been there this year, hopefully getting to the end of it! Turns out God is in charge, not us, not the method or seminar or experience, or whatever.

All we need is Christ, His work, His presence, His intercession.

(What, no bells 'n' whistles? Shucks!)


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## twogunfighter (Jan 13, 2005)

This is a true story....

I got slain in the spirit by Benny Hinn.  It was at Jesus '79 in a tent. I was 9 and was amazed by all the people that he was "healing" but I was skeptical. So I went forward to see if he could rid me of my wart on my hand. I stood in a line and they prayed etc. then he whacked me on the head and I fell over. I did not really "feel" anything and thought that I probably fell because he was a full grown man pushing over a 9 year old (I would like him to try it again at my current size though:bigsmile. My wart got bigger and had to be burned off about 2 years later. The charismatics would say that I did not have enough faith but I consider it Providential to have the scar on my hand to remind me of the TOTAL LUNACY of these nabobs.


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