# The "reformed" Redemptrix



## fredtgreco (Apr 7, 2005)

*The \"reformed\" Redemptrix*

It was only a matter of time before the folks over at [size=-2]reformed[/size] Catholicism attempted to jump on the Redemptirx bandwagon.

The latest post is on _Redemptoris Mater_ (note that the Latin literally means "mother of redemption" ):

http://www.reformedcatholicism.com/archives/2005/04/redemptoris_mat.html


> April 06, 2005
> Redemptoris Mater
> 
> Someone please show me the heresy in these words:
> ...



In case you were wondering where the original quote came from to start with, wonder no more:

http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya3a.htm


> Church Teaching on Mary's Cooperation in the Redemption of Mankind
> 
> Compiled by Fr. William Most
> 
> ...



[Edited on 4/7/2005 by fredtgreco]


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## Arch2k (Apr 7, 2005)

I didn't even know that there was such a creature as a "reformed Catholic." Sounds almost like a contradiction in terms!


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## kevin.carroll (Apr 7, 2005)

The word "Redmptrix" kind of conjures images of mine of a woman with a halo, sporting skin tight leather and whip. Hehehhe.


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## wsw201 (Apr 7, 2005)

> Through faith the Mother shares in the death of her Son, in his redeeming death; but in contrast with the faith of the disciples who fled, hers was far more enlightened.



I guess Kevin forgot that John was also at the foot of the cross (John 19:26)!


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## kevin.carroll (Apr 7, 2005)

> _Originally posted by wsw201_
> 
> 
> > Through faith the Mother shares in the death of her Son, in his redeeming death; but in contrast with the faith of the disciples who fled, hers was far more enlightened.
> ...



I am not that Kevin. I mention this for clarity's sake.


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## lwadkins (Apr 7, 2005)

> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> 
> 
> I am not that Kevin. I mention this for clarity's sake.



Glad thats cleared up..


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## Afore_Prepared (Apr 9, 2005)

> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> The word "Redmptrix" kind of conjures images of mine of a woman with a halo, sporting skin tight leather and whip. Hehehhe.



 

Glad I'm not the only one with this particular image in my head. Every time some Catholic whack-job starts spewing his verbal feces about the "Co-Redemptrix," this awful image of Eartha Kitt with a halo starts whizzing through my mind. God have mercy on me!

~a


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## Robin (Apr 9, 2005)

Hey Fred....

You've noticed that our culture's gnosticism; postmodernistic (new agey/feminism/goddessism) thinking makes it possible for Romanists to talk like this? Right?

Doesn't this go back to Schlieremacher?

That whole description at the cross was nothing more than presumptious, subjective emoting -- 

Robin


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## LawrenceU (Apr 10, 2005)

Nhilism. It is the fruit of it.


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## A.J.A. (Apr 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by kevin.carroll_
> The word "Redmptrix" kind of conjures images of mine of a woman with a halo, sporting skin tight leather and whip. Hehehhe.



I've never thought of that before... but from now on, every time I hear it, I'll get that image in my mind too.


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## Scott (Jun 14, 2005)

A friend of mine was recently in the Philipines. He had the unfortunate duty of delivering a eulogy. The deceased was Catholic and the event was held in a Catholic church. My friend wanted to make a point about about Christ and direct people to a picture of Christ (sorry in advance to those who oppose pictures of Christ) but could find none. Instead, the church was filled with pictures (icons, etc.) of Mary. It is amazing how she seems to eclipse Christ in so many Catholic cultures. I live near Mexico and it is the same way there, at least on the border. Mary everywhere, Jesus hard to find. 

I should note the exception to pictures of Christ in the Church were pictures of the infant being held by Mary.


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## AdamM (Jun 15, 2005)

I noticed something similar with many of the Mexicans here. Big pictures of Mary, with no sign of Jesus. 

Here is a very informative radio show done on the Issues Etc. program that deals with Mary and her importance to the Roman Catholic Church today (In the context of an "agreement" with some Anglicans).
Check out the show done during hour three on May 17th.

http://www.kfuo.org/ie_archive_may05.htm


Bottom line, which I think is probably true is that the various doctrines regarding Mary rank above almost every other issue in terms of importance to the RC church today.


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## smallbeans (Jun 15, 2005)

One of the big challenges looking toward the future and hoping, as Christ prayed, for a unified church will be how Protestants will convince Roman Catholics to contextualize Mary in more pastorally wise language. A certain level of honor for Mary is just going to be a part of the Christian tradition, it is inescapable, but this has developed in an unproductive and damaging direction in many ways in Roman Catholic theology. The most unfortunate thing of all is the two ex cathedra Marian doctrines - her immaculate conception and bodily assumption - which are born of speculation and have only the weakest connections to scripture. Having that kind of codified stance will make the Mary issue a real barrier to ecumenism as we go forward.

As for the term "reformed catholic" - we simply have to stick up for and fight for that term. The church is one, holy, catholic, and apostolic. We cannot let the adjective "Roman" be the only way in which the word "catholic" is used. "Reformed Catholic" is a great way to express a belief in the one church without also affirming the Roman version of the church. I, myself, try really hard to always say "Roman Catholic" and never just "Catholic" when I'm talking about the RC church because I don't want to lose ownership of catholicity - that's the whole point of catholicity, it breaks through barriers of geography and time.

One of the saddest things about looking at photos from my own PCA's General Assembly is how overwhelmingly white our denomination is, in the midst of a country where one in seven persons is hispanic, and in the south, where the PCA predominately lives, 55% of the population is African American. And yet when I see photos of gatherings of the Roman Catholic church, it truly is a worldwide communion in its membership and leadership, and that's pretty humbling. I'm frustrated by our narrowness, and I'm frustrated by Rome's theology and practice! My guess is there are a lot of poeple my age who feel the same way, and so "Reformed Catholic" fits us pretty well.


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Jun 15, 2005)

I have been outside Catholic churches where there are large statues of Mary with altars and burning incense. The locals come with offerings of flowers and lay them before the idol and pray to her. Some of these idols have lights aimed at them so that the white stone shines in the darkness and a glass case was around one of them to keep the crowds back.


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## Scott (Jun 16, 2005)

"One of the saddest things about looking at photos from my own PCA's General Assembly is how overwhelmingly white our denomination is, in the midst of a country where one in seven persons is hispanic, and in the south, where the PCA predominately lives, 55% of the population is African American."

I am with you on this. The truly international nature of RC is impressive.


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## tcalbrecht (Jun 16, 2005)

> _Originally posted by smallbeans_
> One of the saddest things about looking at photos from my own PCA's General Assembly is how overwhelmingly white our denomination is, in the midst of a country where one in seven persons is hispanic, *and in the south, where the PCA predominately lives, 55% of the population is African American*. And yet when I see photos of gatherings of the Roman Catholic church, it truly is a worldwide communion in its membership and leadership, and that's pretty humbling. I'm frustrated by our narrowness, and I'm frustrated by Rome's theology and practice! My guess is there are a lot of poeple my age who feel the same way, and so "Reformed Catholic" fits us pretty well.



Not sure were you got this number from, but the 2000 US Census identifies the following Southern states as having the highest percentage of African Americans; Louisiana (32%), Mississippi (36%), Georgia (29%), South Carolina (29%). If you want to include Maryland, they have 28%. All other Southern states have a percentage below 26%, so the number, at least officially, is far below 55%.

[Edited on 6-16-2005 by tcalbrecht]


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jun 16, 2005)

The RCC is like the GOP is some ways. It has a "big tent" mentality (think of the Log Cabin Republicans, neo-Cons and devout Christians all voting for Bush). It would take something really extraordinary for someone to get excommunicated from the RCC (like being an anti-pope). You can be a pro-abortionist politician and partake of the Mass. You can be a feminist, Marxist and sodomite Roman Catholic likewise. There are all sorts of factions. Thus, I would say that Romanism projects a false unity. As a big as the Roman tent is, it still excludes pre-Vatican II adherents, Eastern Orthodox and of course Protestants. But it embraces Muslims, charismatics, Anglicans, pro-lifers and anyone who can make common cause with Rome. Strange bed-fellows, I say.


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## smallbeans (Jun 16, 2005)

I was using US Census Bureau statistics from 2002 but I misunderstood the chart:

http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/race/black.html

Here is what their summary chart says:

Northeast: 18.1% black / 20.5 % white (non-hispanic)
Midwest: 18.1 % black / 27.0 % white
South: 55.3% black / 33.3 % white
West: 8.6% black / 19.2 % white

But the meaning is that, taking the South, 55.3% of all blacks live in the south, while 33.3% of all whites live in the south. I was taking the stats in terms of "percent of the population" of the region. Sorry for that.

I guess I could revise the statement: the PCA is a largely Southern denomination, and the South is where most African Americans live, therefore it would seem like you'd have some better representation of African Americans in the PCA.


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## smallbeans (Jun 16, 2005)

Well, I wouldn't say that Roman Catholicism "embraces" Muslims or pro-choicers. Its soteriology makes room for people to be saved in Christ who do not follow Christ consciously, and for pro-choicers, it simply has no church discipline at the local parish level.

Roman Catholicism just never cleans out its closets and so you have some places in the world where Christianity is combined with traditional religions in a syncretistic fashion. And as I said, there is no church discipline. It is really sad.

[Edited on 6-17-2005 by smallbeans]


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## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Jun 17, 2005)

My pastor was talking about Catholics in France where many of them are Arian. Is this true?


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jun 17, 2005)

PPJII kissing the Koran:


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## turmeric (Jun 17, 2005)

I wonder if I'm still RC! Never asked. I assume that when you join another church you're not one anymore.

BTW, the syncretism was deliberate in Europe of the Middle Ages. The idea was to spread a political kingdom as far and wide as possible. True Christian conversion cannot be accomplished by the sword.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jun 17, 2005)

Syncretism is part of the strategy of Rome and has been since the days of Constantine up to the present day. Hence, Christmas and Easter and other pagan practices and pantheons of deities were adopted by Rome to make Christiantity more palatable. Since Vatican II, the strategy has broadened to co-opt the ecumenical movement (ha! ecumenical under the authority of the Roman Pontiff). That's part of why Rome has strange bed-fellows.

I don't know if I got crossed off the Vatican membership rolls when I was born again, but I suspect not. Having been baptized into the RCC, depending on which type of Romanist one speaks to, I could be considered an apostate or an erring brother saved despite my rejection of the "Church" due to the efficacy of my infant baptism. Rome used to baptize the children of Protestants and pagans against the will or without the knowledge of the parents; now they supposedly reject that, but believe such baptisms to be regenerating nevertheless. Once baptized, always Roman, they say. But thank God for leading me away from Rome and to the true church of Jesus Christ.


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## Puritan Sailor (Jun 17, 2005)

Syncretism is also part of Rome's strategy here in America too. Notice, only in America do Catholics and Protestants get along. That's because America is predominantly protestant. The Roman Catholics often try to portray themselves as evangelical, even talk like them sometimes, to try to assimilate more protestants. Even the Pope spoke of being "born again" while visiting, something he never says anywhere else in the world. And most protestants today buy it, hook, line, and sinker.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jun 17, 2005)

(I can just imagine Pope Benedict Arnold cackling in a Jeremy Irons-Die Hard III voice, "...hook, line and sinker!"  )


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## smallbeans (Jun 17, 2005)

Yes, it is disappointing to see the Pope kiss the Koran. Very foolish.


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## smallbeans (Jun 17, 2005)

Fred Wrote:



> The latest post is on Redemptoris Mater (note that the Latin literally means "mother of redemption" ):



In fairness to the guys who wrote that, "redemptoris" does not mean "of redemption" it means "of the redeemer". Mary is the Mother of the redeemer.


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