# Arminian Non-Readers.



## Bernard_Marx (Jan 22, 2005)

I have no idea where this thread should be.

I live in a house full of Arminian Charismatics. They're nice folks who are hungry for the word but they don't read. Whenever they want to know about Calvinism they want "chapter and verse" and because I don't like arguing with them, I usually just lend them a book for them to read. For example: the other day I was debating with someone who kept on throwing out "universalistic" passages faster than I could possibly deal with. As opposed to wading through this way I simply loaned her a copy of Reymond's systematic theology, and dog-eared the section dealing with many of the passages she had mentioned. That was two months ago. She hasn't read it. She still brings up the passages. 

What do I do????


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## Ivan (Jan 22, 2005)

Always be ready to give a defense of the faith...Thomas, do the work, prepare, and give her the truth. Be a workman that shows himself approved.

You say that they are hungry for the Word, yet they do not read. I'm assuming you mean they don't read anything other than the Bible, right?



[Edited on 1-22-2005 by Ivan]


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## blhowes (Jan 22, 2005)

Its difficult to talk with people who's minds are already made up, who it seems would rather teach than learn. 

If you're familiar with Reymond's systematic theology and what he says about the verses, maybe it'd help your friend if you shared that knowledge directly, since it seems they don't want to (or don't have time to) read and search for themselves. Next time they start spouting off verse after verse, stop them at one of the verses you think would be most instructive and say something like "You're bringing up a lot of good verses on the topic. We probably won't have time to deal with all the verses, but let's talk about this one and see what the scriptures say". Maybe you can give them some things to think about.

If you can convince them about one verse, maybe it'll be easier with other verses and maybe they'll even read the systematic pages you pointed out.


[Edited on 1-22-2005 by blhowes]


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## Ivan (Jan 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by blhowes_
> If you can convince them about one verse, maybe it'll be easier with other verses and maybe they'll even read the systematic pages you pointed out.



Yes! A step at a time. I think sometimes we feel we have to have all the answers NOW and to rescue the lost NOW.

All in God's time and in God's way.


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## BlackCalvinist (Jan 22, 2005)

Attack back in systematic fashion.

Go through verses that talk about the NATURE of the atonement. Once they are shown that the nature of the atonement (substitutionary) actually SAVED people at the cross (and didn't just make them 'savable'), they may start to back off a bit and re-examine. If Christ actually saved PEOPLE at the cross, then how can the atonement be universal ?

Go through verses that talk about the PURPOSE of the atonement. Sheep, sheep, sheep. 

Go through verses (most of the ones they're probably citing) and show that passages like John 3:16, 1 John 2:2, etc... deal with the VALUE of the atonement, not the objects nor intentions of the atonement.

Matter of fact, start from the beginning.

*G*od's Sovereignty in all of history, including salvation
*R*adical Depravity
*A*ccomplishing Grace (John 6:37-40)
*C*omplete Atonement (see above)
*E*nduring Preservation and Perseverance

Walk them through the Doctrines of Grace in this fashion. I'll have a copy of my 'study' for use on my site soon enough (this is the format I use). 

Show them some of the other 'all' and 'world' passages that if interpreted to be universalistic, would be nonsense. Then end off with a line like 'Well, I believe in a God who saves people.... not just theoretically makes them savable.'


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## cih1355 (Jan 22, 2005)

You could ask her, "If Jesus was punished for everyone's sins and some people go to hell, then what are they being punished for if the punishment for their sins has already been taken care of?". She might say that they are in hell because of their unbelief. You can respond by saying, "If Jesus was punished for all of our sins and unbelief is a sin, then Jesus was punished for the sin of unbelief. Your belief concerning Christ's atonement leads to the conclusion that our faith makes Christ's atonement effectual. If our faith makes Christ's atonement effectual, then our faith contributes to our salvation."


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## Charismatic Calvinist (Jan 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Richard B. Davis_
> I live in a house full of Arminian Charismatics. They're nice folks who are hungry for the word but they don't read.



I would have to agree with you on this, Tom. Most recoil in horror at the suggestion or idea of reading a nice phat theologically correct book. They like their small god that needs our help to get His will to pass and they aren't too quick to surrender their glory in the matter. Rather than _know_ what Calvinism really teaches, they prefer the _idea_ of what they think it is. In my experience, most will readily admit that they have never read any of it for themselves...ever. All I can suggest is to pray Eph. 1:17 over them constantly...as _the effective fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much_.


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## ARStager (Jan 22, 2005)

I wonder if "here, take this and read" is the wrong approach altogether? I think that sitting down together over a Hefe Weissen at the Public House and reasoning together is much more fruitful. It'll force you, as some folks have mentioned before, to actually be able to know and articulate truths. A ready defense is not "Horton said so" or whatever. And don't do it over email, either.


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## Charismatic Calvinist (Jan 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ARStager_
> I wonder if "here, take this and read" is the wrong approach altogether? I think that sitting down together over a Hefe Weissen at the Public House and reasoning together is much more fruitful.



There is definitely a time and place for that, but sometimes you just get tired of the same arguments around the same Scriptures over and over again. Yes, sometimes you can "blast 'em with the Word" and it is fruitful, other times individuals just need to search the matter out on their own with God and chew/muse on the Word for a time. 

This contributes nothing, I'm sorry. But I see both points...


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## ARStager (Jan 22, 2005)

> Yes, sometimes you can "blast 'em with the Word" and it is fruitful, other times individuals just need to search the matter out on their own with God and chew/muse on the Word for a time.
> 
> This contributes nothing, I'm sorry. But I see both points...



Reason with them. That's all I'm suggesting. Especially since the original author said that the last thing they want to do is read and investigate. If you sit down with someone over a brewski, discuss things, reason with them from scripture, etc, all the while being kind...and maybe even paying for their tab, it'll haunt them like crazy and they'll probably come back with all sorts of counter arguments. Then you can start the process all over again. It's called discussion, and we need to be good at it, especially when discipling belivers --- which is what this amounts to, after all.


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## Charismatic Calvinist (Jan 23, 2005)

I'm ready to listen to the whining of an Arminian brother if there might be a free pint in it for me...


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## BlackCalvinist (Jan 23, 2005)

why not simply go through the scriptures with them ?

If we truly believe that Arminianism has not a leg to stand on.... what's the harm in answering the 'chapter and verse' questions ? Show them their own bias against what the scriptures actually teach and their own exalting of their tradition. Sometimes, what we've been raised in isn't necessarily correct.


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