# Is mental illness real or a farce?



## shackleton (Aug 24, 2007)

I have recently learned that an aspect of Nouthetic counseling is the belief that mental illness is not real, it does not exist. It is said that psychology was devised by man and therefore cannot be trusted because they do not start from the foundation of man being sinful. They are only dealing with the effects of sin and not sin itself. 
They told me it was like sitting on a tack, and instead of pulling the tack out you just take aspirin for the pain. Psychology treats the pain when what really needs to be done is to remove the tack, (sin). 
I don't have a problem with this, but I know that even when the tack is pulled out it leaves a hole that causes problems and if left untreated could get infected. Pulling out the tack takes care of original sin, but something needs to be done about the hole, the affects of sin. 
In my line of work, (Firefighter and Paramedic for about 12 years), I have seen my fair share of people with mental illness. Most homeless people and a lot of people on welfare are mentally ill. About a quarter of the calls I run are on people with some sort of mental problem. 
If sin can and does affect the body and makes it sick, why can't it affect the mind? 
I know for a fact that mental illness is real, any thoughts?


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## Cheshire Cat (Aug 24, 2007)

It is very real. Much can be fixed with proper medication.


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## etexas (Aug 24, 2007)

It is very real. I had a Schizophrenic cousin who announced once that "Vampires on Moon killed JFK".......he then went back to what he was doing. He did pretty well when mediated properly. So, from personal experience....I would say it is real!


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## jolivetti (Aug 24, 2007)

In my reading among nouthetic folks, I find Ed Welch to strike a really great and gentle balance between the biological and spiritual aspects of mental problems. 

We can neither say there is absolutely no mental illness nor cave into the hyper-medicated approach favored these days. Thus pastors and counselors need great wisdom, sensitivity and thoughtfulness for each person they talk to.


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## Calvibaptist (Aug 24, 2007)

Some of the fringe types probably say this about mental illness (putting it all at the feet of sin), but the mainstream ones tend to have a balanced perspective, recognizing that, while a lot of problems go back to sin in ones life, there are biological imbalances (as a result of the fall) that need to be handled by medication and counseling.


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## etexas (Aug 24, 2007)

jolivetti said:


> In my reading among nouthetic folks, I find Ed Welch to strike a really great and gentle balance between the biological and spiritual aspects of mental problems.
> 
> We can neither say there is absolutely no mental illness nor cave into the hyper-medicated approach favored these days. Thus pastors and counselors need great wisdom, sensitivity and thoughtfulness for each person they talk to.


Please do not forget......with some of the newer neuro-imaging diganostic tools we now KNOW that in a lot of mental illness there are differences in brain structure between the "ill" person and "normal" person.


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## Calvibaptist (Aug 24, 2007)

Fingolfin said:


> jolivetti said:
> 
> 
> > In my reading among nouthetic folks, I find Ed Welch to strike a really great and gentle balance between the biological and spiritual aspects of mental problems.
> ...



I just listened to a sermon on Romans 1:24-27 (dealing with homosexuality) from this very perspective. I highly recommend it because his basic premise is that, even when there are differences in brain structure, etc. the reason is the fall. This might not say anything to whether or not nouthetic counseling is right or not, but it is a good way for dealing with the "nature" excuse for various sins.

I am not calling mental illness a sin. I am just saying that the argumentation is the same.


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## MrMerlin777 (Aug 24, 2007)

There is a balance that has to be struck In my humble opinion.

I was diagnosed with Major Depression Disorder about a year and 1/2 ago now and found that treatment was helpfull. I'm now no longer on meds and have recovered very well.

I know that a great many strifes in our lives lie squarely at the feet of our sin but to say that all psychiatry and psychology is bunk, that's a bit overboard. Our fallen state tends to effect the orgainic as well as the spiritual and mental. At times professional help is required to sift through all the confusion and find what is at the heart of the problem. Of course one's pastor and elders should be involved in a person's mental health as well.


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## etexas (Aug 24, 2007)

Calvibaptist said:


> Fingolfin said:
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> > jolivetti said:
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I am not suggesting using some of these new tools to excuse sin! In point of fact homosexuals have had PROBLEMS finding any structural differences (some claim that, but it is dubious) and even if they did it would damage their "cause"....it would indicate thy have an illness! Not good for them. I digress....my point was really about people with serious problems such as Schizophrenia. That is a different topic in my mind.


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## Puddleglum (Aug 24, 2007)

I think that mental illness is real - and that is it caused by sin (and how much is in a general, we live in a fallen world type of sin, and how much is sin that has been done to that person and how much is the result of sin that a particular person has committed varies from person to person).


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## etexas (Aug 24, 2007)

Puddleglum said:


> I think that mental illness is real - and that is it caused by sin (and how much is in a general, we live in a fallen world type of sin, and how much is sin that has been done to that person and how much is the result of sin that a particular person has committed varies from person to person).


We do live in a fallen world and much illness is caused by sin, both original and personal, my cousin had problems from a VERY early age too early to have really done a great deal of personal sin in accord with knowledge, wisdom, and age. You seem to be stating that severity of illness is based how much the person has sinned. I find that so flawed and so foolish that this is an instance where one has a million thing they could say, and nothing. Please tell me I misunderstood you!


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## PuritanCovenanter (Aug 24, 2007)

Calvibaptist said:


> I just listened to a sermon on Romans 1:24-27 (dealing with homosexuality) from this very perspective. I highly recommend it because his basic premise is that, even when there are differences in brain structure, etc. the reason is the fall. This might not say anything to whether or not nouthetic counseling is right or not, but it is a good way for dealing with the "nature" excuse for various sins.
> 
> I am not calling mental illness a sin. I am just saying that the argumentation is the same.




Steve Camp and I got into it over this issue when Al Mohler made some of his thoughts known on the issue. 
Steve actually won me over on the issue. He retold a recent story of a Pastor who was approached by a woman who said she was born gay. The Pastor turned to her and said that she was not born gay but that she was born a sinner. It caused her to repent.


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## calvinich (Aug 24, 2007)

In my estimation, we must strike a balance on this issue.

Our mind is effected by both "physical/chemical" and spiritual things. There is no denying that simple chemistry, environment, etc. has a great impact on our emotions and feelings.

On the one hand, much of modern psychology denies the noetical aspects and tries to analyze psychology on a merely biological level. And they err in that direction.

On the other hand, some Christians, let their suspicion of modern psychology perhaps take them too far in the other direction, overly downplaying the biological/chemical aspects of the mind and taking a smug pride in how psychologists have erred.

The human mind is a great and complex thing, and I think we need to exercise humility in admitting that we DON'T know everything about it. Many problems humans have, or perhaps most, are due to their sin. We need to face that head on. But we also should also leave some room and perhaps acknowledge some of the good things that modern psychology has taught. The mind is a complicated thing. I don't fully understand how the biological aspects of the mind affect how it operates. I'm suspicious of anyone who tries to broadly paint everything in relation to mental illnesses and other matters with one stroke, whether they are an unbelieving psychologist or a Christian theologian.


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## Puddleglum (Aug 24, 2007)

Fingolfin said:


> Puddleglum said:
> 
> 
> > I think that mental illness is real - and that is it caused by sin (and how much is in a general, we live in a fallen world type of sin, and how much is sin that has been done to that person and how much is the result of sin that a particular person has committed varies from person to person).
> ...



Sorry - no, that's not what I'm trying to say. 

To try to put it another way . . . I think that mental illness is partly due to the effects of the Fall (our bodies aren't what they were originally made to be), partly due to the effects of being sinned against (e.g. a person is raped and as a result has PTSD), and partly due to the effects of one's own sin (e.g. not fighting sinful thought patterns). I think that the balance between these - how much one is a contributing factor versus another - will vary from one individual to another. 

Does that make more sense?


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## Theoretical (Aug 25, 2007)

Puddleglum said:


> Fingolfin said:
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> > Puddleglum said:
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Very well said, Jessica.


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## Contra_Mundum (Aug 25, 2007)

Actually, a fairly straightforward "nouthetic" response (today, anyway) would be: organically caused problems, problems with a physical element should be treated organically/physically.

Spiritual problems are issues for the Christian ministry and counselors (and all Christians are "competent to counsel," some better than or more gifted or trained than others).

And there are a lot of (mainly) spiritual problems that are treated by unbelieving world as mere "mental" issues. And what many biblical counselors warn against are "solutions" that may not address the true core issues at all, and only treat the symptoms, mainly the ones that affect the physical body (we are, after all, body-souls, with sympathetic connections between those two components--something materialist secularists reject from a world-view standpoint).

And there are ample testimonials of people who's mental and even physical "issues" went away after repentance and faith. For some people, since that isn't a "scientific" response, its no better than "alternative medicine" success stories. But that's not a fair comparison (no matter if the AM stories are real). Because our labors in the spiritual realm are not to be based upon a % of success stories, out of all the people we've counseled.


Bottom line view:
1) a nouthetic counselor would rather be working with someone, than that the counselee was not there;
2) it may be preferable to have a person in his right mind, and coherent to talk with him, and meds can be plus or minus respecting a person's mental state;
3) if a counselor does not want risk a lawsuit, he/she isn't going to tell a person: "you need out of that substance-dependency you are on, even if it's prescription," even if he/she thinks that--better to ask the Lord to help that person get out of it (if God knows the counselee would do better without it)

Here are a couple of anecdotes:
1)the man left his Christian wife, he went to counseling, he was under conviction, he went into clinical depression, his psychologist got him on meds, he quit counseling, he got him a new woman; when the pastor saw him again and asked how he was dealing with his sin and guilt, the man replied, "The meds work fine--I don't feel bad about that any more."
2) lithium seems to help the lady, she's functional, not given to the horrible mood swings, etc., lithium has no known organic benefit to the body, it isn't part of our human constitution, but putting it in the body (it is a known toxin) offers some relief, by doing what exactly...? not sure what the difference between this and a witch-doctor's potion. 

But the lady is helped into a frame where it is easier to glorify God. We do similar things with physical pain... is it wise to do it also with the mind? I don't know the answer. Would William Cowper been helped if he'd had lithium? Would he have written any of his hymns if he had been? *No one knows.* And so we go on. I think drugs for a schizophrenic are probably preferable to him hurting himself or others, as well as preferable to alternatives like electro-shock treatment (which appears to be viewed by the mainstream today as pretty barbaric and inhumane).

I'll close thus: we do not know whether pain relief (physical or mental) is a positive "good" in the end, when God evaluates our life and each discrete episode in it. Health and feelings of well-beling are not _intrinsic_ goods, and the realization ought to be a regular part of the "health-care" calculus--but seldom is.


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## bookslover (Aug 25, 2007)

shackleton said:


> ...an aspect of Nouthetic counseling is the belief that mental illness is not real, it does not exist.



What a crock. Mental illness is most certainly real. As several have already said, we are finding out that many "mental" illnesses are actually physical in nature. Clinical depression, for one; schizophrenia (probably) for another.

My lovely wife suffers from major depression; it is, under God, medication which has enabled her to function normally (well, as "normally" as a person with muscular dystrophy, diabetes, and high blood pressure can function).

Like just about everything else about our personalities, bodies, and lives, mental illness is a product of the fall.


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## etexas (Aug 25, 2007)

Puddleglum said:


> Fingolfin said:
> 
> 
> > Puddleglum said:
> ...


Yes, that does make more sense. My feeling of outrage at the original post had to do with the fact that it sounded like you were making a math equation: A lot of sinfulness=equals severe mental illness. I myself still lean towards medical factors. This does not discount sin, it puts it in perspective as part of living in a fallen world.


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## Puritan Sailor (Aug 25, 2007)

shackleton said:


> I have recently learned that an aspect of Nouthetic counseling is the belief that mental illness is not real, it does not exist.


I'd like to see the quote. From what I have read in Adam's he doesn't deny the reality of mental illness.


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## shackleton (Aug 25, 2007)

Just to reply to a couple of points. First, this was not something I read by Jay Adams, it was something that certified Nouthetic counselors were either teaching in church or have told me personally , it was a point they were trying to drive home. Secondly, these same people deny even such diseases as schizophrenia, bi-polar etc. I personally know that this is not true. This is why I posed the question. Were it not for mental illness my job life would be a lot easier, mix mental illness with drugs and alcohol...lookout!
I guess the problem is not with Nouthetic counseling _per se_, but the way some people interpret it.


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## Contra_Mundum (Aug 25, 2007)

I think the issue comes down to _defining_ "mental illness." The concept is under far more public attack by Secularists than by the tiny community of biblical or nouthetic counselors.

Is "difficulty coping" a mental problem? Is the difference between 

1) person A (death of spouse, loss of legs) who is "fine", and 
2) person B (straight A highschooler who can't do better than B grades in college) who is in "clinical depression" 

a matter of a "correctly" or "incorrectly" functioning brain?
Or even more esoterically, 
a correctly/incorrectly functioning "mind"?
(what is mind? what is mental-function?
(how does a belief in sin--actual and original--affect how one evaluates a person coming for help?)
Is the application of mood altering or behavior/function modification drugs a good or bad thing?
*What if "feeling bad" or "depressed" means that your brain/mind/body is functioning PROPERLY?* Do you want interference that will prevent you from getting the correct help?


I don't want to minimize the real suffering of real people. In the end, where one goes to get help, or the kind of help a counselor gives, is a product of what they believe is at the root of human identity, composition, and conduct.


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## shackleton (Aug 25, 2007)

If I understand this properly, someone who has had a hard life or had something bad happen to them at some point in life and has emotional scars is not "mentally ill" as secular psychologists and counselors would say but could be helped with true biblical counseling. 
Lets say someone is raped, or was in Vietnam or Iraq and has bad memories that plague them and causes them problems. A secular counselor or psychologist would simply put them on Zoloft to help them feel better and call this Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and label them mentally ill. Whereas a _true _Nouthetic counselor would see this as the effects of sin and deal with it by aggressively working to sactifiy that person, after first dealing with original sin through justification by faith in Christ. 
If this is true I can understand this. These people are not truely mentally ill, they just need help and can be helped by the right person. It is however, not correct to make a blanket statement that there is no such thing as mental illness of any kind. The above senario is a lot different than someone who has schizophrenia, can't take care of themselves, and being on meds helps keep them from killing themselves or someone else.


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