# The RPW and Musical Styles



## Calvibaptist (Nov 3, 2007)

Leaving aside the EP debate, how does holding to the RPW affect musical styles? For instance, would A Mighty Fortress Is Our God done with a praise band be against the RPW? I am curious what others see the Bible saying on this issue.


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## AV1611 (Nov 3, 2007)

Calvibaptist said:


> Leaving aside the EP debate, how does holding to the RPW affect musical styles? For instance, would A Mighty Fortress Is Our God done with a praise band be against the RPW? I am curious what others see the Bible saying on this issue.



RPW = no musical instruments


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## Calvibaptist (Nov 3, 2007)

AV1611 said:


> Calvibaptist said:
> 
> 
> > Leaving aside the EP debate, how does holding to the RPW affect musical styles? For instance, would A Mighty Fortress Is Our God done with a praise band be against the RPW? I am curious what others see the Bible saying on this issue.
> ...



OK, leaving aside the no musical instruments and EP debate, for those who think the RPW does NOT disallow the usage of musical instruments, how does holding to the RPW affect musical styles?


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## RamistThomist (Nov 3, 2007)

Good question. Even the organ/piano *is* a musical style, if only a superior one. What makes that superior to the praise band? Don't get me wrong. I hate 95% of praise music.


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## etexas (Nov 3, 2007)

AV1611 said:


> Calvibaptist said:
> 
> 
> > Leaving aside the EP debate, how does holding to the RPW affect musical styles? For instance, would A Mighty Fortress Is Our God done with a praise band be against the RPW? I am curious what others see the Bible saying on this issue.
> ...


I am attending an OPC now that uses the Trinity Hymnal, we have a piano, both pastors affirm both Westminster and RPW, neither of pastors seem to find conflict between the piano to accompany the Trinty Hymns....


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## AV1611 (Nov 3, 2007)

etexas said:


> I am attending an OPC now that uses the Trinity Hymnal, we have a piano, both pastors affirm both Westminster and RPW, neither of pastors seem to find conflict between the piano to accompany the Trinty Hymns....



I do not wish to derail the thread so I will not enter the fray...I will PM you


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## Davidius (Nov 3, 2007)

If one allows the use of musical instruments I don't see how one style could be required. In fact, I find it almost hilarious when I see individuals making supposedly biblical arguments against the use of certain instruments and styles. 

I do know, however, that at least one person on the board (Thunaer), is against the use of certain instruments and styles. He might be able to give you something from the horse's mouth.


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## CalvinandHodges (Nov 3, 2007)

Hey:

I think you can have different musical styles without instruments; Glad, for example:

[video=youtube;aCF1UN4nvYw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCF1UN4nvYw[/video]

Is a lot different in style than the Scottish Psalter:

[video=youtube;yETRxtYIL-E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yETRxtYIL-E[/video]


I think when it comes to "style" that Philippians 4:8 should be the touchstone:



> Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things arelovely, whatsoever things are of good report, and if there be any praise think on these things.



Holding to no musical instruments is not a matter of Exclusive Psalmody. Isaac Watts rejected musical instruments, and he is touted among the greats in hymn writing. John Wesley also once said:

"I do not mind the organ in the church as long as I do not see it, and, especially that I do not hear it!"

I think that the genius of God is found here in that one can sing to just about any "style" of music: Oriental, African, European, South American as long as such "styles" reflect Phil. 4:8. I would question if Rock n Roll fits this category:

[video=youtube;55iADHOMNvs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55iADHOMNvs[/video]

-CH


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## Southern Presbyterian (Nov 3, 2007)

CalvinandHodges said:


> Hey:
> 
> I think you can have different musical styles without instruments; Glad, for example:
> 
> Glad - In The First Light



How can you listen to that and not think that the human voice is an insturment created by God for His praise?!



> I think when it comes to "style" that Philippians 4:8 should be the touchstone:
> 
> 
> 
> > Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things arelovely, whatsoever things are of good report, and if there be any praise think on these things.


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## Southern Presbyterian (Nov 3, 2007)

This seemed appropriate...

[video=youtube;3SqQOKr6IAk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SqQOKr6IAk[/video]


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## SRoper (Nov 3, 2007)

I'm not sure that the RPW has much to say about musical style. Rather musical style seems to fall into those "circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature, and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed." There's no need to bring musical instruments into the discussion as there are many ways in which even non-instrumental exclusive psalmody can be done.


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## JohnOwen007 (Nov 3, 2007)

Calvibaptist said:


> Leaving aside the EP debate, how does holding to the RPW affect musical styles? For instance, would A Mighty Fortress Is Our God done with a praise band be against the RPW? I am curious what others see the Bible saying on this issue.



The basic principle for the church gathering is _edification _(1 Cor. 14:26). If it edifies (i.e. builds and strengthens through God's word) it's ok. Musical form is, generally speaking, neutral and changes from culture to culture. All forms of Christianity must have cultural dress (heck, as soon as we use a language we're immediately bound to a cultural form).

Generally speaking, when music is too bad, it's unedifying because it distracts. On the other hand, when music is too good, it's unedifying because it distracts. Wisdom is needed.

God bless brother.


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## thekingsknight (Nov 4, 2007)

I may be wrong here, but I think that what's needed is for someone who "truly" knows music - i.e. its theory, harmony, instruments used for a given piece, etc. AND who is also able to rightly handle the word of God to shed some light. Has anyone done this? Otherwise isn't it just our opinions, preferences, and ugh, prejudices?


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## Herald (Nov 4, 2007)

thekingsknight said:


> I may be wrong here, but I think that what's needed is for someone who "truly" knows music - i.e. its theory, harmony, instruments used for a given piece, etc. AND who is also able to rightly handle the word of God to shed some light. Has anyone done this? Otherwise isn't it just our opinions, preferences, and ugh, prejudices?



Ted - the author of the OP is someone who "truly" knows music. I think that is why he is asking. Our church (I am an Elder at Calvibaptist's church) is embracing _semper reformanda._ I know why Doug asked this question and I applaud him for it.


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## thekingsknight (Nov 4, 2007)

Forgive my ignorance. I would like to read more on this. Too many changes are taking place in RB churches today & it usually starts with the music. A topic that most can't argue, myself included. I can only say that from what I see in the Psalms, certain pieces were to be played on certain instruments. It would be nice for someone with knowledge to enlighten us as to whether these were the "only" instruments to be played for the given piece, and also whether said instrument could've been left out.


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## Herald (Nov 4, 2007)

Ted, nothing to forgive brother. I just wanted to inform you that Calvibaptist is a trained musician and has knowledge in this area.


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## CalvinandHodges (Nov 4, 2007)

Southern Presbyterian said:


> CalvinandHodges said:
> 
> 
> > Hey:
> ...



I agree with you. The human voice is the most beautiful instrument for the Praise of Allmighty God. What I think makes it most precious is that the voice is connected with the heart, "Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." I have heard people who were pitch perfect in their singing, but their heart was not attuned to the Grace of God - certain renditions of the _Messiah_ for example are done by unbelievers who wish to show off their talent rather than praise God. An old friend of mine - his father - is tone deaf. But, when you hear him sing you can hear his heart.

The RPW forbids musical instruments in the formal worship of God. However, it does not forbid musical instruments being used in other areas of life. Thus, I also agree with you that groups like "Glad" and also "Hymns" can be used outside of the Worship of God in other areas of life. However, such things are not appropriate in the Worship of the Living God.

Blessings brother!

-CH


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## Pergamum (Nov 4, 2007)

If no musical instruments are allowed - can we do "beatbox" (i.e. those crazy sounds out of the mouth like that Police Academy guy used to do). Thus, we could then have music but no instruments. If the voice is an instrument, then we cannot sing period.


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## etexas (Nov 4, 2007)

Pergamum said:


> If no musical instruments are allowed - can we do "beatbox" (i.e. those crazy sounds out of the mouth like that Police Academy guy used to do). Thus, we could then have music but no instruments. If the voice is an instrument, then we cannot sing period.


......Good point! Here I was feeling "guilty" about the piano in my OPC! WE Just need a human "beatbox"! Knew something was missing!


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## JBaldwin (Nov 4, 2007)

> The RPW forbids musical instruments in the formal worship of God. However, it does not forbid musical instruments being used in other areas of life. Thus, I also agree with you that groups like "Glad" and also "Hymns" can be used outside of the Worship of God in other areas of life. However, such things are not appropriate in the Worship of the Living God.




Can someone please explain this? I know that you see a difference between formal worship of God and everyday life, but I cannot understand (and I am serious about this) how it can be ok for me to sit down at my piano and sing and play hymns in Sunday school, and not ok for me to sit behind a piano in a worship service and accompany the singing of the people while they worship God. In one church I attended where they used no instruments, there was a piano in the Sunday school room. After the acappella worship, they all marched down to the Sunday school room and sang songs accompanied by a piano. What was the difference? It seems like worship to me. 

Take it a step further. If it is wrong to use instruments in formal worship of God, then is it wrong for believers in a family to sit around their piano or with a guitar and sing accompanied hymns to go along with family worship? Again, I am not trying to be sarcastic, I really want a scriptural answer to what appears to me to be inconsistent.


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## CalvinandHodges (Nov 4, 2007)

JBaldwin said:


> > The RPW forbids musical instruments in the formal worship of God. However, it does not forbid musical instruments being used in other areas of life. Thus, I also agree with you that groups like "Glad" and also "Hymns" can be used outside of the Worship of God in other areas of life. However, such things are not appropriate in the Worship of the Living God.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey:

When we approach God in Formal Worship we do so on His grounds not on our own. Such is the essence of the Regulative Principle of Worship. I will keep it at that since I do not wish to hyjack this thread.

Beatbox is not singing. Thus, it is not warranted.

Grace and Peace,

-CH


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## Davidius (Nov 4, 2007)

JBaldwin said:


> > The RPW forbids musical instruments in the formal worship of God. However, it does not forbid musical instruments being used in other areas of life. Thus, I also agree with you that groups like "Glad" and also "Hymns" can be used outside of the Worship of God in other areas of life. However, such things are not appropriate in the Worship of the Living God.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey Mrs. Baldwin,

This was an issue for me for a while. But if you accept the distinction between public worship and the rest of life the difficulty shouldn't be so great. We do plenty of "religious" things in gatherings with our friends that we wouldn't do in public worship. My fiancee and I got together to pray and read books together. But it would not be appropriate for my pastor to use a passage of a book as his sermon text. Hence it's not so silly to say that a group of friends could not around a piano or guitar and sing while outside of public worship.


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## etexas (Nov 4, 2007)

CalvinandHodges said:


> JBaldwin said:
> 
> 
> > > The RPW forbids musical instruments in the formal worship of God. However, it does not forbid musical instruments being used in other areas of life. Thus, I also agree with you that groups like "Glad" and also "Hymns" can be used outside of the Worship of God in other areas of life. However, such things are not appropriate in the Worship of the Living God.
> ...


The Beatbox thing...was a joke. Take a valium.


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## Davidius (Nov 4, 2007)

etexas said:


> CalvinandHodges said:
> 
> 
> > JBaldwin said:
> ...



Perhaps it was an inappropriate joke, like your own prescription here. And it's not like he responded with anger or sarcasm.


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## etexas (Nov 4, 2007)

CarolinaCalvinist said:


> etexas said:
> 
> 
> > CalvinandHodges said:
> ...


Yawn..so not in the mood.


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## Semper Fidelis (Nov 4, 2007)

If it was a joke then someone misinterpreting it as a serious question and answering should not be responded with sarcasm. I actually thought the question was a serious one as well.

It was also unnecessary to extend the prescription for "meds". Let's return to proper interaction here.


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## etexas (Nov 4, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> If it was a joke then someone misinterpreting it as a serious question and answering should not be responded with sarcasm. I actually thought the question was a serious one as well.
> 
> It was also unnecessary to extend the prescription for "meds". Let's return to proper interaction here.


Sorry Rich.


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