# Robert E. Lee



## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 19, 2005)

Robert E. Lee was born on January 19, 1807. He died on October 12, 1870. He was a true Christian warrior who served his country and his state in time of war and in peace. 

For more on his religious views, see: http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/Lee_Religious_Views.htm


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## Irishcat922 (Jan 19, 2005)

Great man! Next to Jackson probably the greatest General in U.S. History.


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## Ivan (Jan 19, 2005)

Lee and Jackson. Two men that I highly regard. I've read bios of both and they were great Christian men. 

I like Jackson in particular, but Lee was THE Gentleman.


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## RamistThomist (Jan 19, 2005)

It is hard to find the 4 voulmes of Freeman on Lee for a cheap price, would the abridged version be too much of a cut?


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 19, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> It is hard to find the 4 voulmes of Freeman on Lee for a cheap price, would the abridged version be too much of a cut?



I can't speak from first-hand knowledge, but I found this comment by an Amazon reviewer interesting:



> Good, but read R.E. Lee, Freeman's unedited four-volume set on General Lee for a better insight into Lee family history (which was surely a motivation for the general), Virginia life and of course the full, in-depth story of this American hero's life before and after the war.


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## RamistThomist (Jan 19, 2005)

I actually remember reading that Amazon review.


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## LawrenceU (Jan 20, 2005)

It is worth it.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Oct 8, 2005)

Robert E. Lee died on October 12, 1870. His last words were: "Strike the tent."


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 18, 2006)

Happy Birthday, Robert E. Lee!


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## Puritanhead (Jan 18, 2006)

_Robert E. Lee on Leadership : Executive Lessons in Character, Courage, and Vision _ Prima. 256 pages. $14.95. 

See my book review.

~Robert E. Lee on Leadership: Executive Lessons in Character, Courage and Vision~ is in the words of former Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger, "A splendid and inspiring book." The author H.W. Crocker III sketches an extraordinary little book profiling the extraordinary character and courage of the South's esteemed General Robert E. Lee. This timely piece chronicles the man Robert E. Lee, his spiritual convictions and extraordinary character forged amidst great hardship. The Lee family may have had aristocratic roots, but Lee embraced the esteem of the family name with humbleness instead of pomp and splendor. The great Confederate general is renowned by southroners, Union sympathizers, and Europeans alike. The esteemed Lord Acton sought dialogue with Lee after the war. President Theodore Roosevelt said affectionately that Lee was "the very greatest of all the great captains that the English-speaking peoples have brought forth." British Prime Minister Winston Churchill observed, "His noble presence and gentle, kindly manner were sustained by religious faith and an exalted character." 

Lee was an astute student, and excelled at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point. He served with honor as scout and engineer in the U.S.-Mexican War making a reputation for himself. He developed a little business acumen trying to manage his plantation at Arlington. Lee was great because he was unassuming and was a gentleman of Christian piety. He learned from his mistakes-and yes he made mistakes. Lee was a brilliant strategist and considering the lowly status of his underdog army, he defied the odds. Lee in humility credited providence for his successes. Lee was also great because he surrounded himself by great men, as Crocker highlights in the chapter entitled Lee's Lieutenants. Both Stonewall Jackson and cavalry leader Jeb Stuart were bold, daring, and ultimately gave their life to the cause they fought alongside General Lee for. 

Just as his father General Lighthorse Harry Lee before him, Lee pledged his life and sacred fortune for the cause of his country. As a patriot, Lee simply could not conceptualize a patriotism that didn't put God and Family first. In 1861, as Lee was summoned by the Lincoln administration with a prestigious offer to command a Union Army, his conscience dictated his forthright refusal of such an offer. To trample on home and hearth in the name of an abstraction like the "Union" was beyond Lee's comprehension. He refused to lead an army to invade the southron states. The Union after all was formed for the security of the several States and the people therein, not to wage war on her people. The proposition established in the 1776 Declaration of Independence, which posited "rule by consent of the governed" plainly goes against the idea of tethering the Union back together by force. With the eventual secession of his home state and its accession to the Confederate States, Lee led his sword in defense of his beloved Commonwealth of Virginia. The cost borne by Lee to stand by the courage of his convictions was enormous. Being a northern Virginian he soon lost his much-loved estate straddling the Potomac yet he boldly named his army, the Army of Northern Virginia because that was the ground he defiantly intended to hold. Always daring, Lee would eventually take war to the north in Pennsylvania. 

Commendation is to be given to H.W. Crocker Jr. for profiling the late Robert Edward Lee and garnering lessons on leadership from this extraordinary leader. The great value of the text is it's readibility and Crocker possesses a unique dynamism as a storyteller which adds lustre to it. Lee was neither a politician nor a statesman, but he is an admirable exemplar of what true leadership is. In sum, there are a great deal of life lessons to be learned from the wily Grey Fox. 



> "...a union that can only be maintained by swords and bayonets and in which strife and civil war are to take the place of brotherly love and kindness has no charm for me. I shall mourn for my country and for the welfare of mankind. If the union is dissolved and the government disrupted, I shall return to my native state and share the miseries of my people, and save in defence, will draw my sword on none."
> --Robert E. Lee


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## Puritanhead (Jan 18, 2006)

Tell your friends and family it's Robert E. Lee's Birthday or tell them about General Jackson's Birthday coming up on the 21st. Have a Dixie Day!

http://dixierising.com/an_index.php


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## Pergamum (Jan 18, 2006)

Ryan:

What's with the mispelling of the word "southern"? You did it several times, therefore, you must have a point to it.


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## Puritanhead (Jan 18, 2006)

> _Originally posted by trevorjohnson_
> Ryan:
> 
> What's with the mispelling of the word "southern"? You did it several times, therefore, you must have a point to it.



Yankee English...
civilization instead civilisation
color instead colour
southerner instead southroner

What's with you misspelling _mispelling_?


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## Pergamum (Jan 18, 2006)

Noah Webster isn't good enough for you; you've got to get all Oxford on us?


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## Ivan (Jan 18, 2006)

Lee was a true Christian, Southern Gentleman!


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## Puritanhead (Jan 18, 2006)

> "With all my devotion to the Union and the feeling of loyalty and duty of an American citizen, I have not been able to make up my mind to raise my hand against my relatives, my children, my home. I have therefore resigned my commission in the Army, and save in defense of my native State, with the sincere hope that my poor services may never be needed, I hope I may never be called on to draw my sword....."
> --Lee in a letter to his sister, April 20, 1861


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## Pilgrim (Jan 18, 2006)

I don't get the "southron" thing either and have no interest in such quixotic pursuits as southern nationalism, etc. Call me a scalawag if you must


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## Mike (Jan 19, 2006)

I don't know all that much about Lee, but I for one find it hard to swallow that we ought properly think of him as, "a true Christian warrior who served his country and his state in time of war and in peace." I don't understand why we as Christians somehow think that we should praise rebellions.


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## Puritanhead (Jan 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Pilgrim_
> I don't get the "southron" thing either and have no interest in such quixotic pursuits as southern nationalism, etc. Call me a scalawag if you must



Heck, I just went to Louisiana this past July to attend seminar on scholarship, and you Louisianans have a language all your on! Particularly southwest of Orleans where I went in the bayou.


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## Puritanhead (Jan 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Mike_
> I don't understand why we as Christians somehow think that we should praise rebellions.



Here we go again...


**sits idle in amusement**


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## Me Died Blue (Jan 19, 2006)




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## Mike (Jan 19, 2006)

I'm the one who opened the can of worms... yeah. Fun.


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## Pergamum (Jan 19, 2006)

At least no one is trying to rename the War Between the States as the "Second War of Independance" or "The War of Northern Aggression" as I have heard even pastors in the pulpit refer to it as...


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## Puritanhead (Jan 19, 2006)

*Robert E. Lee's Religious Views - The Quotable Robert E. Lee*


> "There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil."
> 
> "The doctrines and miracles of our Savior have required nearly two thousand years to convert but a small portion of the human race, and even among Christian nations what gross errors still exist! While we see the course of the final abolition of human slavery is still onward, and give it the aid of our prayers, let us leave the progress as well as the results in the hands of Him who, chooses to work by slow influences, and with whom a thousand years are but as a single day."



Lee freed his slaves before the war. Lee prayed for slavery to end.

Contrast that with General Grant, who freed his slaves only after it was abolished by the 13th Amendment...

*The Quotable U. Grant*


> "If I thought this war was to abolish slavery, I would resign my commission and offer my sword to the other side."
> 
> "I never was an abolitionist, not even what could be called anti-slavery..."


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Mike_
> I don't understand why we as Christians somehow think that we should praise rebellions.



If you wish to debate this issue, please start a new thread in the Politics forum. This thread was placed in church history for the purpose of honoring Robert E. Lee's Christian legacy.


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## Plimoth Thom (Jan 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Puritanhead_
> Contrast that with General Grant, who freed his slaves only after it was abolished by the 13th Amendment...



Grant came from a very Republican family (his father and brothers were very pro Republican) he himself was less enthusiastic about politics. He actually voted for Buchanen in '56 because he believed it would delay a war for at least another 4 years. His wife on the other hand was from a Southern slave owning family, and quite spoiled. She insisted on keeping her slaves through the first couple years of the war, until her last slave was freed in 1863, then she had to hire servants. Grant in contrast freed his male slave he had been given by the in-laws when he entered Missouri (a slave state) before the war, even though he was experiencing financial hardships.

[Edited on 1-19-2006 by Plimoth Thom]


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## LadyFlynt (Jan 19, 2006)

Goodness, even I spell things as colour and neighbour, etc.  (we need a rolleyes smilie)


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## RamistThomist (Jan 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> Goodness, even I spell things as colour and neighbour, etc.  (we need a rolleyes smilie)



If we are going to take this country back from liberals and infidels, we need to start spelling things the old timey way, "u"s and all.


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## Pilgrim (Jan 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Puritanhead_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Pilgrim_
> ...



Yes indeed, especially down da bayou.


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## Pilgrim (Jan 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> ...



Yeah, that'll do the trick


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## Mike (Jan 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> If you wish to debate this issue, please start a new thread in the Politics forum. This thread was placed in church history for the purpose of honoring Robert E. Lee's Christian legacy.


It seems like the senses in which he was a bad Christian in a big way belong in this forum.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Mike_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> ...



If you are going to continue to debate the politics of lawful or unlawful resistance to tyranny, I would appreciate it if you would start a new thread on that subject in the politics forum. Otherwise, this thread will likely get locked down or moved to the politics forum involuntarily, and I for one would not appreciate that.


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## LadyFlynt (Jan 19, 2006)




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## RamistThomist (Jan 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Pilgrim_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> ...



Of course, I was (semi) joking  , but it raises an interesting point. Nietzsche said people will continue to believe in God as long as they believe in grammar, or something like that. Point being something along the lines of grammar implies standards and abstract rules, and from there (I haven't finished this line of argument).


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## Puritanhead (Jan 19, 2006)

Robert E. Lee on Lew Rockwell.com by Gail Jarvis, January 19, 2006.


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## Mike (Jan 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot_
> If you are going to continue to debate the politics of lawful or unlawful resistance to tyranny, I would appreciate it if you would start a new thread on that subject in the politics forum. Otherwise, this thread will likely get locked down or moved to the politics forum involuntarily, and I for one would not appreciate that.


So I am supposed to use your historo-political views in all forums but the politics forum? I must have missed that day.


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## LadyFlynt (Jan 19, 2006)

No...if you wish to debate those views, then you must go to the political forum. Andrew was simply stating a famous personage is having a birthday and explaining their place in Christian history. If you wish to debate his Christianity or his politics, then you may NOT do it in this forum.


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## Puritanhead (Jan 19, 2006)

The Legacy of Robert E. Lee by Randy Odom, 
SermonAudio.com. 
Three Lectures.


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## Mike (Jan 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> No...if you wish to debate those views, then you must go to the political forum.


I am not trying to engage in debate about the political issue in this thread.



> Andrew was simply stating a famous personage is having a birthday and explaining their place in Christian history.


And he made an error in doing so. I presented a contrasting view.



> If you wish to debate his Christianity or his politics, then you may NOT do it in this forum.


So we are only allowed to praise people from church history in this forum? It seems like we might want a more balanced discussion, discussing whatever good and bad might properly apply to a person. Shall we say nothing negative if I start a thread on Mary Tudor?

[Edited on 1-20-2006 by Mike]


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## RamistThomist (Jan 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Mike_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> ...



No one is saying you can't critique him, only do it in the proper thread.


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## Mike (Jan 19, 2006)

So if I started a thread on King Herod, an important person in church history, can we only say positive things about him in this forum?


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## RamistThomist (Jan 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Mike_
> So if I started a thread on King Herod, an important person in church history, can we only say positive things about him in this forum?



If you want to, sure, go ahead.

Technically speaking, you can say negative things about Marse Robert, but since many on this board will defend this most godly of Americans, it will quickly turn into a debate, which is what the politics forum is for.


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## LawrenceU (Jan 19, 2006)

Guys,
I'm not a moderator any longer, but let us please cool it. Andrew made a request and this Southron is about to lose his colour over this. Please respect him as a gentleman would.


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## LadyFlynt (Jan 19, 2006)

Mike,

There is clear evidence of both Lee's Christianity and his integrity. The portion I believe you wished to debate was his politics. Should I question your Christianity if I disagree with your politics? Lee made a difficult choice...and he had his reasons for doing so, whether you believe in error or not. But he did not compromise his Christianity in the process...if you wish to pursue that he did, then let's take it to politics for the simple reason that that is invariably what the debate will include, unless you wish to take it to one of the theological forums (participating on what is believed to be the "wrong side" of a war as evidence of a persons spiritual state). 

Mary Tudor was a Catholic and persecuted the Reformed...she may be heralded on the catholic boards, but obviously she has done nothing for us to make note of her birth (in exchange I lift up Jane Grey, whom was beheaded by Mary Tudor  ). I suggest you note the differences in the two cases (Lee vs Tudor) and stop tossing in the ridiculous. However, you are more than welcome to your view and to state such...but, again as requested, let's do this in another forum.


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## Pilgrim (Jan 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> It is hard to find the 4 voulmes of Freeman on Lee for a cheap price, would the abridged version be too much of a cut?



My father has this set. I'm going to have to check them out sometime. He's had the set for probably over 30 years , I think bought them from some Dr. in a garage sale!

[Edited on 1-20-2006 by Pilgrim]


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## Pilgrim (Jan 19, 2006)

Jacob, you may want to check abebooks or ebay to see if you can get them at a bargain price, unless you want a new set.


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## Pilgrim (Jan 19, 2006)

Imagine the average university president saying this today: 

Robert E. Lee had a Heart for the Non-believers in his University

One morning, while the venerable Dr. White was passing General Lee's house, on his way to chapel, the general joined him, and they entered into conversation upon religious subjects. General Lee said little, but, just as they reached the college, stopped and remarked with great earnestness, his eyes filling with tears as he spoke: "I shall be disappointed, sir, I shall fail in the leading object that brought me here, unless the young men all become real Christians; and I wish you and others of your sacred profession to do all you can to accomplish this result." from Part 8, Chapter 19 of "A LIFE OF GEN. ROBERT E. LEE." BY JOHN ESTEN COOKE

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/Lee_Religious_Views.htm

[Edited on 1-20-2006 by Pilgrim]


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## Mike (Jan 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by LadyFlynt_
> There is clear evidence of both Lee's Christianity and his integrity. The portion I believe you wished to debate was his politics. Should I question your Christianity if I disagree with your politics?


1. I don't believe I ever stated that Lee was not a Christian. However, he is quite notable in history for wrong actions, which we should address.

2. Politics is not somehow disjoint from the rest of Christianity. I would tend to think that the moral issues involved in politics can be quite compelling when we consider political figures in history.



> Lee made a difficult choice...and he had his reasons for doing so, whether you believe in error or not.


I readily concede this.



> But he did not compromise his Christianity in the process...if you wish to pursue that he did, then let's take it to politics for the simple reason that that is invariably what the debate will include


So I cannot express a dissenting view I hold here because it will invariably be a debate here? I would think that it would be the person who engaged my view would be the one who should be silenced, not me. I don't see why I have any less place to express my view here than those who do not believe Lee was in error on this point.



> unless you wish to take it to one of the theological forums (participating on what is believed to be the "wrong side" of a war as evidence of a persons spiritual state).


I don't think I ever addressed Gen. Lee's spiritual state.



> Mary Tudor was a Catholic and persecuted the Reformed...she may be heralded on the catholic boards, but obviously she has done nothing for us to make note of her birth (in exchange I lift up Jane Grey, whom was beheaded by Mary Tudor  ).


She most certainly should be noted by us; how is the martyrdom of the saints not an issue we should care about?



> I suggest you note the differences in the two cases (Lee vs Tudor) and stop tossing in the ridiculous.


I do not mean to say that they are the same. I was conducting a reductio ad absurdum argument to show that indeed we should be able to be critical of figures in church history.



> However, you are more than welcome to your view and to state such...but, again as requested, let's do this in another forum.


But my view is applicable here. The debate on the criteria I use to reach that view ought not be debated here, but I am not participating in such a debate.

[Edited on 1-20-2006 by Mike]


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## satz (Jan 19, 2006)

Mike, i think all these guys are saying is that this particular thread was created for the purpose of allowing supporters of Robert E. Lee to remember his birth and discuss his merits. They are simply requesting that if there is a need to discuss his flaws another thread be used.

Not being american i don't know too much about REL, but i doubt his flaws are so great as to make their request unreasonable.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Oct 11, 2006)




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## Semper Fidelis (Oct 11, 2006)

I should place "Resurrector of Old Threads" under your user name. 

No Lee smileys. Maybe a Jackson smiley because he was a Presbyterian.


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## LadyFlynt (Oct 11, 2006)

Okay...how about some Reformed Women?! You know Jane Grey Dudley, Katerina Luther?


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## Semper Fidelis (Oct 11, 2006)

We need to start a new Smiley thread.


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## Blueridge Believer (Oct 11, 2006)

it's a shame that here in Virginia, the home of Lee and Jackson that thier memories are not more highly regarded but sold out to the carpet baggers in the interest of political correctness. 
God bless his memory and service to the CSA and his fight to stand agianst those who destroyed the constitution and forever dissolved individual freedom and the soveriegnty of the states. Pity, we are now nothing more than serfs who serve at the whim of our ruling elite familes.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jan 17, 2007)

This year marks the 200th birthday of Robert E. Lee (January 19).


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