# Patriotic Songs and Christian Worship



## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jun 30, 2012)

As many (if not most) American churches take time out of worshipping God to worship America tomorrow let us remember the illegitimacy of singing so-called "Patriotic Hymns" in Lord's Day Worship.

Separating the State from the Church by Laurence M. Vance


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## PhilA (Jun 30, 2012)

Amen!


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## jwright82 (Jun 30, 2012)

I agree. We rightfully say the pledge of allegiance to be an American citizen but not to be a citizen of God’s kingdom. We ought to say the Nicene Creed to pledge our allegiance to the more important kingdom of Christ. So we should not blur these too.


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## Alan D. Strange (Jun 30, 2012)

Thanks, Ben. How right you are!

I preach in a wide variety of Reformed and Presbyterian churches as a seminary professor. I've had to make a note not to preach in certain ones around Memorial Day or the Fourth of July due to patriotic songs played as offertory, special selections, choir piece, etc (all not picked by me). I once preached somewhere where after I pronounced the benediction the congregation sang the Battle Hymn of the Republic (which, of course, I had not picked). That took the cake! So much for "not with swords loud clashing!" 

Just say "yes" to the spirituality of the church.

Peace,
Alan


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## jogri17 (Jun 30, 2012)

I've been called a traitor by Americans for moving to Canada. Gotta love the midwest!


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## J. Dean (Jun 30, 2012)

Patriotic songs celebrating America are fine.

Just not as worship on Sunday morning.


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## OPC'n (Jun 30, 2012)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> As many (if not most) American churches take time out of worshipping God to worship America tomorrow let us remember the illegitimacy of singing so-called "Patriotic Hymns" in Lord's Day Worship.
> 
> Separating the State from the Church by Laurence M. Vance



Amen! And likewise when it comes to voting let's remember to vote in the person who supports the Constitution the best and not the one who "could have been a pastor he's sooooo Christian". I'm not sure why so many Christians combine these two offices together.


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## Scott1 (Jun 30, 2012)

I understand the regulative principle, and that worship ought not be centered on politics.

Setting aside psalms-only as a discussion, 
as I look at the very biblical lyrics of _The Battle Hymn of the Republic_, I can't see anything violative in it. The lyrics are excellent and burgeoning with truth, centered on God.

The hymn is about GOD making man free.

What could possibly be wrong with that in church?

It seems like hymns like this actually unify and focus on "crown rights" of our Lord.

Somehow, also, I can't find fault with remembering for prayer those who died in battle, and their families left behind, on the sabbath either. Granted, it's not to be the focus of the service, but incidental to it.

Or to thank God for freedoms, beginning with religious freedom, that those who died help secure. 

It doesn't seem that just because the Marines later adopted it as their theme song, that that somehow renders it inappropriate.



> Lyrics
> 
> Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord:
> He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
> ...


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## Steve Curtis (Jun 30, 2012)

Scott1 said:


> Setting aside psalms-only as a discussion,
> as I look at the very biblical lyrics of The Battle Hymn of the Republic, I can't see anything violative in it. The lyrics are excellent and burgeoning with truth, centered on God.
> 
> Somehow, also, I can't find fault with remembering for prayer those who died in battle, and their families left behind, on the sabbath either.
> ...


Some thoughts on the Battle Hymn...
http://theaquilareport.com/why-i-dont-sing-the-battle-hymn-of-the-republic/
[and that is not the Marine Corps Anthem]


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## Jeffriesw (Jun 30, 2012)

kainos01 said:


> Scott1 said:
> 
> 
> > Setting aside psalms-only as a discussion,
> ...





Thank you, I was looking for this article and could not remember where I first read it.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jun 30, 2012)

Thanks Steve. I was going to post the same article.


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## Scott1 (Jun 30, 2012)

Actually, I prefer this analysis of the hymn.



> Biblical references
> 
> The song alludes to several Biblical passages:
> 
> ...


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## Philip (Jun 30, 2012)

The closest to a Patriotic Hymn that I would ever want to hear in Church is "Eternal Father, Strong to Save" (Navy Hymn---but rather Biblical).


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## Scott1 (Jun 30, 2012)

> Separating the State from the Church by Laurence M. Vance
> 
> ....
> Instead of worrying about the First Amendment, Christians should be more concerned about the First Commandment. The Lord demands that no gods be put before him — inside or outside of church. God will not give his glory to another (Isaiah 42:8, 48:11). The state must be separated from the church.
> ....



And while it's not the topic of this thread, this reasoning is not something I'm entirely comfortable with- it sounds more like a total separation of church influence to the state.

We better be concerned about the first amendment, not at the expense of the First Commandment, that is true, but it is not an either/or proposition as this author implies.

Without the first amendment, you're not freely going to even be able to have open discussion like this, let alone be unhindered in corporate worship, including the songs we sing there.


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## Scott1 (Jun 30, 2012)

I'm not comfortable with the title of this author's last work, either


> Recently by Laurence M. Vance: Mr. Obama, Tear Down This Empire



I haven't read it, only going by the provocative title and the notion it conveys, as he apparently asserts it under the color of religious authority.

Suffice it to say, there is reason to doubt this man's authority to teach us on spiritual authority about the regulative principle, the nature of Christ's Kingdoms, etc.


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## Edward (Jun 30, 2012)

Scott1 said:


> The hymn is about GOD making man free.



No, it's about conflating the Yankee army with Christ, and the Southern troops with Satan. It's a violation of the Third Commandment.


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## JoannaV (Jun 30, 2012)

I suppose it depends on whether you evaluate hymns strictly by the actual words you sing and your interpretation, or by the author's intent etc. We've had such discussions before. Perhaps at least when one is aware of a conflict one could avoid singing a hymn on an occasion which is more likely to remind one of the worldly meanings.


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## jwithnell (Jul 1, 2012)

The Trinity Hymnal has a few that honor God and rightly ascribes to Him the blessings out nation has received. I wouldn't want to go beyond that, though.


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## Alan D. Strange (Jul 1, 2012)

Scott:

The BHR was written by Julia Ward Howe as precisely that: words to John Brown's body (already a marching song sung by Union soldiers) that could be used by the Army of the Potomac as a battle hymn as they went forth as the righteous servants of the Lord, as the Army of the Lord, to slay the Southern devils. Need I go line by line and explicate what she meant?

I agree with you that the spirituality of the church, certainly as meant by our forefathers in nineteenth century Old School Presbyterianism, did not mean a sundering of God and state, a celebration of a secularized state. None of them stood for that. The spirituality of the church does mean the proper separation of the political--the carrying out of particular political programs--from the institutional life of the church, from the church in her gospel proclamation. They all believed that church and state were properly under God, with neither institution over the other.

That having been said, the BHR is a baptizing of the Northern Army and a prayer for and celebration of her success in smashing her enemies. This is not another nation. These are fellow countrymen in rebellion. Once such a war is over is it appropriate that such a song be brought into churches and sung? I think not.

Not to mention, bad theology: Ms. Howe's supposition, as that of many of her age, was that the mere fact of the Incarnation is transformative of us all--Christ's birth does not transfigure (whatever that exactly means in this context) anyone and then empower us to make all men free as He has made all men holy. This universalism/egalitarianism was common then, part of the "transformation" of the gospel happening in the US in the explicit rejection of Calvinism. And the "die to make men free" line is an exhortation for the Army (and all who should join it) to give themselves to that great cause then in progress--sacrifice one's life so that others may enjoy political freedom as the hymn writer understood it. The whole of the hymn is nothing but apocalyptic rhetoric applied to one part of the nation making war on another part (don't say it was a separate nation because that destroys Lincoln's argument and the basis for the War). That's just a little bit of analysis of something that, however we may wish to sing it out of church, has no business in church.

Peace,
Alan


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## Southern Presbyterian (Jul 1, 2012)

**Moderation**

The point of the OP is well made. 

We are not going to argue the merits of individual hymns/songs.

Have a Blessed Lord's Day!

Thread Closed.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jul 1, 2012)

Well, I'll use my massive board powers just to post one interesting thought I had today after worship.

We're probably the most USMC congregation in the PCA. At one time, 3 members of our Session were Active Duty Marines and a fourth was a retired Marine. Now three of us are retired from the USMC.

Anyhow, we are near the Quantico Marine Base and have a lot of students that come through for a year or two at a time. One of the beloved members of our congregation is a husband and wife couple from Australia. He is attending school here at Quantico and his wife and kids are here with him for two years. They are both members of the Australian military.

Providentially, today my Australian friend was leading singing for the congregation and his wife was playing piano.

God has blessed us with an international congregation (beside Australians we have Ethiopians and others visit). Imagine how strange it would have been for them if we had recited the Pledge of Allegiance or had a colors ceremony as I once witnessed in sadness at a PCA congregation in North Carolina. Imagine how strange it would have been for my Australian friend to have led us in the singing of songs extolling the USA as the land of the free.

I'm happy to have served my nation for 21 years but when I attend worship on Sunday I want our Church to represent the Kingdom of God that calls men and women, boys and girls from every tribe and nation to worship the Triune God. This we have the pleasure of doing because nations from around the world send their Officers to this region to be educated and we're blessed as a Church to have a foretaste of heavenly worship.


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