# Sharpening My Defense



## heartoflesh (Feb 7, 2005)

I've had an interesting weekend. First of all, by way of background, I've recently gone through a time of spiritual dryness and general backsliding. In particular I had been especially perplexed by the subject of Hell and the Reprobate, which can be found here: http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=7712
At any rate, God in His grace has found it good to bring me out of my doldrums, doubt and confusion, and has given me a new awakening. 

This weekend I whipped out one of my Spurgeon's Sermons books and read a couple of sermons. A shame to say, they have been collecting dust on my bookshelf for some time now. The blessing I've experienced in the last 48 hours cannot be overstated. What a vessel in God's hands is this Spurgeon! I'm convinced that God has a special design for this man's writings for our time--sermons that comfort the saints and convict sinners. The whole counsel of God preached. It makes one sad to see what has happened to preaching in our day, doesn't it?

Anyway, I definately had a fire in my belly for the doctrines of grace this morning as I left for church-- my generally non-doctrinal, Arminian-by-default church. On my way out, I happened to run into a fellow, a very old fellow, who has taught adult Sunday school and is generally held in high regard in our church. He is Arminian to the core-- he actually calls himself an Arminian and can clearly articulate what it is to be an Arminian. (I make this point because nobody wants to call themselves Arminians today, and most believe in eternal security, so what do you call them??--that's another thread, I guess) This fellow and myself have had little discussions in the past about Calvinism/Arminianism, and have generally been amiable and irenic toward one another. We've joked around that we are like Whitefield and Wesley, that sort of thing. He often comes up to me when I'm talking with a group of people and will say something like _"I'm trying to get this guy to see the light--he's one of those Calvinists you know"_-- and nobody knows what in the world he's talking about and we just kind of wink at each other.

Well, I had heard that he had been suffering from some severe headaches lately, and I said to him, jokingly, _"I will pray for you that God will heal you of your Arminianism, I mean, your headaches"_, to which he grabbed me affectionately by the arm and said, "you rascal, you don't really believe that stuff about predestination, do you"?

Rick: "Yes, I do, the Bible teaches it"

LD: "So I suppose it doesn't make any difference whether you pray for me to be healed or not. After all, if God is going to heal me, he will heal me, and it doesn't make any difference if you or I pray about it"

Rick: "Well, I believe that God has ordained the end as well as the means. He may will that you be healed, and he may will that you be healed through prayer".

At this point he changed the subject, and started going off about what a monster-god Calvinism proclaims. He was also visibly perturbed at this point, raising his voice, his face a little red. (I tell the honest truth-- I was not provoking him in any way, and I was on the defensive for the rest of our conversation.)

LD: "Your god is the author of sin! He predestined evil and all the rapes and Saddam Hussein, etc., etc, etc." (He went on for a while on this tirade while I stood there looking rather uncomfortable. Meanwhile his elderly wife came over to his side and gave me a look like "what are you doing to my husband"!)

Finally, I said (and very calmly) "Well, wait a minute LD, your Arminianism doesn't have a solution for the accustions you've just made. Didn't God know all along, from before the creation of the world that evil would exist? 

LD: "No!"

Rick: "Don't you believe that God knows all things, has always known all things"?

(drum roll please)

LD: "No, I don't believe that stuff!! God doesn't know the freewill choices of free moral agents!" 

Yes, that's what he said verbatim.

Fast forward now to this evening. I am with some friends from church at somebody else's house, and my wife brought up the subject of my encounter with LD, so I started to describe our conversation. To my astonishment, one guy said "That's what I believe too. It would take all the fun out of things if God knew what I was going to do, wouldn't it? God has a sense of humor too, I believe."



That smiley has never been more appropriate!

I'm back at home now (sorry this is so long) and I feel like a new zeal has been planted in me to accurately, rationally, scripturally and lovingly proclaim true Christian doctrine. What is going on in our church!!?? Could this be what happens when sound doctrine is negelcted for the sake of not wanting to be controversial? Me thinks so!! I'm wondering, how many other people are there at my church who are guided by what they feel, rather than what the Bible says? I'm really seeing clearly now what the result is of a "non-doctrinal focus".

My pastor is a good guy. He leans Arminian (he's one of those "don't label me" guys) but I know for a fact that he renounces Open Theism. He is caught up in not wanting to bring up controversial doctrines, however. This has always been the Christian Missionary Alliance position, (which is faulty to the core in my opinion). Calvinists and Arminians are supposed to hold hands and sing Kumbaya and talk about non-controversial things. The end result is obviously that poeple fall into gross heresy. 

I'm going to have to have a talk with pastor.

[Edited on 7-2-2005 by Rick Larson]

[Edited on 7-2-2005 by Rick Larson]


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## Average Joey (Feb 7, 2005)

OY VEY!

That was scary!They believe God is helpless when it comes to man!They need scripture NOW!Tell them these verses.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all of thine heart and lean not on thine own understandings.
Proverbs 3:6 Acknowledge Him in all thine ways and He shall direct your paths.

Break down those verses and tell them to try to line it up with their own beliefs of God.How could you trust God with all your heart if you believe his will cannot interfere with man`s?How can He direct your paths?

Just even use simple verses such as above and ask them questions about it and their own views.


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## Tirian (Feb 7, 2005)

> LD: "No, I don't believe that stuff!! God doesn't know the freewill choices of free moral agents!"



Which god is this? Is this really our God who "knows what things we have need of before we ask Him"? I think you answered him well - it can't have been easy given the circumstances. 

Something Ted Donnelly said at the recent RP conference just came to mind - we are not moral people, rather we have received compassionate mercy. The complete passiveness of this on our behalf is testament to our total inability to pay the debt we have incurred by sin. We are not moral agents, we are saved by the Grace of God alone. Christ came not as a debt collector to see what we might offer, but as a debt payer. He has paid the debt that we could never have. Praise God!

I thank God that He used someone like you to reveal to me the doctrines of grace 15 years ago and that He ultimately revealed the depths of my depravity to me and drew me closer to Him. Therefore be encouraged.

Matthew


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## heartoflesh (Feb 7, 2005)

A little more to the point of my thread here-- I have been searching this morning to begin building a succinct defense (as succinct as can be possible) to the common accusation I am always presented with, namely, how God could predestine evil, the fall of Adam, the reprobate, etc. I don't want to begin with things like the nature of _second causes_, the true meaning of and neccesary conditions for _responsibility_, etc. While these are certainly true, and helpful, I don't think they're a good starting point in casual conversation. 

I found the following statement in Robert Reymond's "A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith", which I think is as good a foundation to start with as any:

"The ultimate end which God decreed he regarded as great enough and glorious enough that it justified to himself both the divine plan itself and the ordained incidental evil arising along the foreordained path to his plan's great and glorious end"
(page 377)

It's a little bit wordy, but the words are carefully chosen. I think trying to impress this idea on their minds (if they have open minds) is vitally important. It seems it's also vitally important to highlight that the redemption of mankind is not the ultimate end-- but it is subordinate to the greatest _end_, namely, that Christ would be the firstborn [occupy the place of highest honor] among many brethren (Rom. 8:29)

Of course, having verses ready to back all of this up is of primary importance.

Rick


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## Average Joey (Feb 7, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Rick Larson_
> A little more to the point of my thread here-- I have been searching this morning to begin building a succinct defense (as succinct as can be possible) to the common accusation I am always presented with, namely, how God could predestine evil, the fall of Adam, the reprobate, etc. I don't want to begin with things like the nature of _second causes_, the true meaning of and neccesary conditions for _responsibility_, etc. While these are certainly true, and helpful, I don't think they're a good starting point in casual conversation.
> 
> I found the following statement in Robert Reymond's "A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith", which I think is as good a foundation to start with as any:
> ...



Here is a reply I gave on another board about my defense of God`s love in the Doctrine of Grace.I don`t know if it will help or not.Maybe you can expand on it more:






> I don`t have all the answers because of course His thoughts and ways are not ours,but I can say confidently say that whatever happens is for God`s glory and for good.Also if we ever doubt God`s goodness and love.All we have to do is look to the cross and remember the words of The God-Man Jesus Christ:
> 
> Jhn 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
> 
> God not only created us.He also performed the greatest act of love towards us.



I hope this can help you some.Always start with God`s love through Jesus Christ.


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## heartoflesh (Feb 7, 2005)

> I don`t have all the answers because of course His thoughts and ways are not ours,but I can say confidently say that whatever happens is for God`s glory and for good.



Yes, this is really the bottom line, isn't it? 

"Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knoweldge of God! How unsearchable are His judgements and His ways past finding out!" (Rom. 11:33)

As a Calvinist, I will happily admit that I don't have all the answers, but I will seek to comprehend as much as I can the Mysterious, Terrible, Wrathful, Just, Loving and Merciful *BIG* God, opposed to squeezing a comprehension of God into my own ideas about "what I think is fair", "what I think is loving", etc., and end up with a weak, not-all-knowing, not-all-powerful, *small* god.

Calvinsts are accused all the time of "putting God into a box", but isn't it really the other way around?


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## Anton Bruckner (Feb 7, 2005)

Rick I was encountering a similar problem with my brother's friend. It had to do with God's rule. The guy believe that God does not rule the earth as yet. This he concludes because there is evil in the world. He believes a 7 day Adventism Dispensationalism where God's rule is in the future.

I tackled him with this question. "If everything that comes to pass ensues on the permission of God, isn't He ruling, since it is He whose very permission determines what comes to pass"?

After pondering it for a day, He came back saying that, " Ownership is different from Rulership. I then asked him which was a mere rerun of scripture, what it means in the Pslams when it says, "The Lord reigns, let the earth rejoice"

I got the same response, "Ownership is different from Rulership".

Actually I think I am getting through to this young man, because He prefers to study over at our house since it is quiet as opposed to being in the apartment with his roomates.


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## Average Joey (Feb 7, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Rick Larson_
> 
> 
> Calvinsts are accused all the time of "putting God into a box", but isn't it really the other way around?



Man,is it the other way around!They use verse Rev 3:20 and make it seem like Jesus is cold and lonely standing outside knocking.Waiting on man`s free will to choose kick in.

Regarding my own salvation,Jesus kicked my door down!

[Edited on 2-7-2005 by Average Joey]


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## Average Joey (Feb 7, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Slippery_
> Rick I was encountering a similar problem with my brother's friend. It had to do with God's rule. The guy believe that God does not rule the earth as yet. This he concludes because there is evil in the world. He believes a 7 day Adventism Dispensationalism where God's rule is in the future.
> 
> I tackled him with this question. "If everything that comes to pass ensues on the permission of God, isn't He ruling, since it is He whose very permission determines what comes to pass"?
> ...



Keep working on him brother!


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## Joseph Ringling (Feb 7, 2005)

Rick, I had a similar experience yesterday at my church. The church that I attend encourages it's congregation to get involved in a sunday school class that they call adult Bible fellowships. So my wife and I attended this one yesterday for the first time and the guy that was leading the class read through the second half of Romans 1 and he didn't really have set points that he was expounding on, he just read through it and asked a few questions and people started commenting about anything and everything that was on their minds. This one woman in particular seemed to have a problem with verse 24 * Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves.* she started going on and on about free will and that she didn't believe that God gave people up to sin or foreknew that some wouldn't be saved and then another guy chimed in about how he thought that if a believer lived a life of sin and died that he would suffer loss at the judgment seat of Christ but he himself would be spared. I was thinking to myself this is the problem with easy believism. They think just because you say the sinners prayer that you're saved. They don't realize that a person that was truly converted would show fruit. It was really frustrating because a few people out of about 25 just kept talking about stuff that made absolutley no sense and weren't giving any scripture to back their views up. There were so many different crazy things being said about free will and other things that I don't remember word for word that were making the Sovereign God of the Universe out to be a wimp who doesn't meddle in the affairs of man. So I finally just calmly read Romans 9:14-24 and the whole class got quiet and when I was done reading the guy that was leading just stared at me for a second and said, "yes, we all do stand condemned before God" and dismissed the class. Then the guy that was sitting next to me asked me if I ever heard of J.Vernon Mcgee and I said yes. He then pulled out his commentary and said, "here's what he says about that passaged you just read" So I looked at it really quick and said OK and then that same lady that had been so vocal the whole time came up to me and said " I just have one verse for you, God is not willing that any should perish but all should come to repentance" I just said OK. And walked away because I needed to get my kids and I didn't really fell it was appropriate to do start a debate with someone I just met that could have got heated. It was one of the oddest experiences I'd ever had because I could tell that people were visably upset that I read Romans 9. 

I guess this is the danger of not being a reformed church or a church that doesn't teach a docrinal statement. If you're members don't know what you're church believes than you get a mixed bag of beliefs and the membership will clash when they have discussions about the Bible. The good thing that I believe came from this experience is that later in the evening I decided to visit a Refromed Baptist Church in the area and was encouraged buy what I saw. They decided that every Lord's day evening they would go through the Heidelberg Catechism and they were also reading one chapter of the Bible and discussing it openly as a church. This way the church is on the same page with each other on doctrine. I also spoke at length with one of the pastors there and told him my situation and how I'm fairly new to Calvinism and he patienly answered all my questions and told me that he was where I am about 10 years ago and that we could start attending a local friday night Bible study together and he would be happy to help me out with whatever other questions I had. So out of all this I praise God that he brought a mature Christian brother in my path that is willing to sort of mentor me which is an answer to prayer in itself.


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## Joseph Ringling (Feb 7, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Average Joey_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Rick Larson_
> ...


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## RamistThomist (Feb 7, 2005)

Rick,
I was in the computer lab at school and heard a few Evanjellyfish talking about their comparative religions course mad: ). Then they began to speak of their atheist friend and that they really shouldn't try to convert him since he had free will and God wants him to make his own choices.
Say again:
We should not convert him because he has free will.
I felt vindicated at that hour!


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## Average Joey (Feb 7, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> Rick,
> I was in the computer lab at school and heard a few Evanjellyfish talking about their comparative religions course mad: ). Then they began to speak of their atheist friend and that they really shouldn't try to convert him since he had free will and God wants him to make his own choices.
> Say again:
> ...



Okay I have to say it again.OY VEY!

And the Arminian asks us Calvinists all the time "What is the point of evangelizing then?"

[Edited on 2-7-2005 by Average Joey]


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