# Struggling to Find Balance



## MamaArcher (May 11, 2010)

I am not sure where to post this so if it needs to be moved please do so. Please forgive my lack of ability to articulate what I am thinking. I am struggling to know how to word my question.

I have been mulling this around in my head for such a long time and have been having a hard time reconciling things. I am hoping to gain some wisdom here.

TO be a Christian one must believe and have faith in Christ alone for their salvation. That regenerate life will be displayed and evident in their life. 

Salvation is of God and God alone, not of anything that we have done. Even our faith and ability to believe is a gift of the Lord, not something we possess within ourselves already.

My struggle is this: I know many who are arminian and several who claim to be few pointers (partial calvinist). Not that you really can be a 3 pointer--it is a whole system of interpretation. anyway

Speaking with those who are not 5 pointers they might say they agree with Salvation being all of Christ and not of ourselves. But then say WE must choose, WE must decide, or even we must pray the prayer, walk the isle, etc.. I struggle in speaking with many because we seem to go round and round and they do not seem to see any type of contradiction in the things they claim to believe and the things they say are required of us to secure our own salvation.

I know that if we believe the basics then we are brothers and sisters in Christ, there are many I know who show evidence of God at work in their lives. BUT how does one reconcile that with the fact that they proclaim what I see as a works salvation.

Am I wrong in seeing arminianism as works salvation? If not, if they proclaim it then isn't it a false gospel? Am I just putting too much emphasis on it? But yet, to me, it seems that these issues are essentials, basics of belief. Am I wrong?

When speaking to others we sometimes (a few phrases) will seem that we believe the same but it seems like we are so far apart on what we truly believe and hold to. Sometimes it makes me wonder.....how can we be serving the same Lord and be so very far apart. 

How can we strive for unity in the body when there seems to be such discrepancy in belief.


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## Kiffin (May 11, 2010)

Well, I would argue that Arminians, if they confess Christ, they are indeed Christian. Fortunately, God elected them before the foundation of the world and in due time, God has regenerated them to enable them to make that profession. Even though they don't believe that, that's what happened.. (Ssshh..don't tell them though)


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## MamaArcher (May 11, 2010)

Kiffin said:


> Well, I would argue that Arminians, if they confess Christ, they are indeed Christian. Fortunately, God elected them before the foundation of the world and in due time, God has regenerated them to enable them to make that profession. Even though they don't believe that, that's what happened.. (Ssshh..don't tell them though)


 
I agree with what you said, I am not saying that they are not Christians. I guess I am just having a hard time because if we love and serve the same Lord, how can we be so very far apart on who we believe he is?


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## Kiffin (May 11, 2010)

MamaArcher said:


> Kiffin said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I would argue that Arminians, if they confess Christ, they are indeed Christian. Fortunately, God elected them before the foundation of the world and in due time, God has regenerated them to enable them to make that profession. Even though they don't believe that, that's what happened.. (Ssshh..don't tell them though)
> ...


 
Well for the "most" part, we don't disagree on who He is but on who we are. We believe we are totally dead unable to reach for Him, they believe we are sick or partially damaged able to reach Him.


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## AThornquist (May 11, 2010)

Hi Kristine:

I believe there are in fact many Christians who are "Arminians," particularly the infants in the faith. Often they are those who by now should be eating meat but because of worldly desires and teachers are consistently drawn away from growth and distracted with issues and endeavors that are irrelevant. Even still, they are saved by their faith in Jesus. They honestly think that they were the ones who had to "accept the gift," partly because of their ignorance of the pervasive depravity of mankind and the convert-seeking methods of their teachers. What shouldn't be denied is the fact that they _were_ saved by their faith and that all people must trust in the Lord Christ in order to be saved; however, what is missing is the sovereignty of God in regeneration and the dragging he performs on a person _so that_ they may have faith.

I believe that Arminianism negatively affects one's view of God's sovereignty, man's depravity, the true means of salvation, evangelism, worship, etc. Nevertheless, salvation is from the Lord whether we know it or not, and it is amazing at what different levels of understanding we are saved in. Don't misunderstand me though: there are all sorts of Arminians who _do_ teach a works righteousness. There are also Calvinists who know all sorts of theology and don't know Christ. We need to be careful with generalizations.


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## MamaArcher (May 11, 2010)

AThornquist said:


> Often they are those who by now should be eating meat but because of worldly desires and teachers are consistently drawn away from growth and distracted with issues and endeavors that are irrelevant.


 
Maybe this growth thing is more of my struggle then. If we are to all be growing up in Christ. I would think we would be growing more in unity on things and not as distant but that doesn't seem to always be the case. I have heard that most believe in Christ as arminians and grow up to be calvinist. ) 



AThornquist said:


> I believe that Arminianism negatively affects one's view of God's sovereignty,


 This is what I was thinking of when I stated differences in who we believe God to be. Is he sovereign or not.



AThornquist said:


> Don't misunderstand me though: there are all sorts of Arminians who do teach a works righteousness.


 Do you believe that arminian teaching is not necessarily works oriented? But only that some take it to that degree?

I was not meaning to make blanket statements either. I know I did generalize but by no means meant to lump ALL into the categories of those I have witnessed and was referring to concerning my questions. )


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## AThornquist (May 11, 2010)

MamaArcher said:


> AThornquist said:
> 
> 
> > Don't misunderstand me though: there are all sorts of Arminians who do teach a works righteousness.
> ...



Yes, that sounds accurate. The Arminians I believe are saved (as best a man can know, that is), are those who believe that salvation is only by faith in Jesus, not by works. Their understanding of God's sovereignty and man's depravity is certainly skewed, but consider what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:

"Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you-- unless you believed in vain.

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep."

Certainly our doctrinal distinctives are important, but not all are of _first_ importance. Predestination, election, etc. are important but not necessary to salvation.


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## Jack K (May 11, 2010)

Yes, I'd say Arminian doctrine, at the very least, cozies up to the idea that salvation depends on what _we_ do. But in the same breath I want to remind us that Calvinists are capable too of living functionally as those who trust works righteousness. I slip into it every day. I do something good and think to myself that God must be pleased and will now favor me in some way. Or I commit sin and imagine myself now less deserving of God's favor, as if I were in some way deserving in the first place. This desire to prove ourselves by our works is a basic struggle for _all_ believers, including those with their theological ducks in a row.

Perhaps we'd make more traction with our Arminian brothers if we focused on this side of the works righteousness struggle... on the ongoing struggle to fully believe our justification, so that we do good works in freedom and joy and gratitude rather than to prove ourselves. Once this concept works its way into the heart and creates freedom there, the Calvinist view of salvation only makes sense.


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## SemperEruditio (May 12, 2010)

Yes we MUST do all these things because we are saved not in order to be saved. We are debased and vile people who only love ourselves. God creates in us a new heart and with that we now have a new love and passion for God. It is this passion that has us cry out to our Father. We must cry out because now the burden of our sins are apparent because God has given us a new heart, new ears, and new eyes. We now see, hear, and feel the greatness of God on the cross which has us cry out to him. This new awareness is the Gospel. We, for the first time, see our wretchedness because we are able to see Christ on the Cross dying for us.

So yes we have to cry out. We have to also prove to ourselves that what we experienced was not just some emotional breakdown but a true work of the Spirit. So we read and study God's Word. We meet with God's people. We spend time with God and we realize day by day that what we experienced was a work of God and not ourselves. For some this happened in an instant and for others it was a gradual process.

I struggle with my friends because "theology matters." If we are just talking about the "work of ministry" we can sometimes just speak in general terms but inevitably it comes down to a situation where it does very much seem it is all about a works-righteousness. It is denied in theory but found in practice again and again and again.

The one thing I've noticed is that the majority of people whether Christian or not are lazy thinkers. Holding onto antithetical beliefs is okay because they don't think about them. These beliefs "make sense" because they don't make sense of them, they don't think about them. It was only when I read Monergism vs. Synergism by John Hendryx that I began to struggle with mine. Thinking hurts and we as people avoid pain or even the perception of pain as much as possible. This keeps us dumb, fat, and otherwise happy.


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## ACBRown (May 13, 2010)

*mamaarcher*

Hello MamaArcher,

I can relate to your struggle. I've certainly thought that before as well. 

Here's a few things you might find helpful. 

I do think there are plenty of genuine Christians out there who are also Amrinian in their basic outlook. Doctrine is very, very important, so please don't misunderstand me here, but we are saved by grace. My creed isn't perfect. I know I've got some errors. Now of course, one will wonder what is too wrong to hold, and that is a good question. As far as Arminians go, many really do trust in Christ alone for their salvation, even if they articulate a system that undermines that point. 

In this respect, I would ask you think back over the NT Scriptures, especially the epistles. Agan and again the writers wrote to saints who were all over the map. Some were very worldly. Some were struggling. Some were confused. And yet, they are called saints. Granted, these saints are sometimes warned and told to examine themselves to see if they are in the faith, but it is still quite evident that genuine Christians have real problems. 

Think of this. When Paul wrote to the Romans, and when he got around to chapter nine, he expected retorts. "Someone will say..." And it's interesting that in that discussion, Paul speaks very plainly and very pointedly to the Romans, but he doesn't call down anathemas, like he does in Galatians, where there they are undermining justification.

I think this is a good example for us. Paul spoke plainly and presented a reasoned argument for the position, but didn't condemn them. 

Hope that helps,

Austin


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## MamaArcher (May 13, 2010)

ACBRown said:


> I can relate to your struggle. I've certainly thought that before as well.



It is good to know that I am not the only one who has struggled with this.



ACBRown said:


> Paul spoke plainly and presented a reasoned argument for the position, but didn't condemn them.



I was not meaning to be condemning. I do know that many are Christians and was not intending to judge their salvation but just stating how I struggle with the view they hold and how it seems so contradictory. I struggle with the contradictions I see. I know I have many, many faults. I know being a Calvinist is not "what seals a matter and makes one perfect". But, like you said doctrine is important! Sometimes, I guess, I just wish unity in these areas was more easily accomplished and less of a struggle.


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## ACBRown (May 13, 2010)

As do I, MamaArcher. I wish we were more of one mind. Here I am reminded of the apostle's words in Ephesians.

"And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes." Eph 4:11-14

Even Paul battled this problem. So I say, pray for the Church. Pray for the teachers that they would teach with clarity and conviction. May God unite us all.

God bless,

Austin


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