# The Pastor's Wife and What Pastors Should Tell Them



## Backwoods Presbyterian

Excellent advice from Scott Clark

What Pastors Shouldn’t Tell Their Wives | The Heidelblog


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## SolaScriptura

I'm one who ministers in a context where confidence is required and the expectation is absolute. I don't get to share with a session for disciplinary purposes, I don't get to share with the law for legal prosecution, nothing. You talk to me and you're safe to say whatever it is you want to say without any fear of human repercussions. 

That said, the idea that we literally tell our wives "nothing," is sophomoric and really, dangerous for the well-being of the minister and possibly of the marriage as well. It sounds like it comes from someone who does minimal counseling and has only a small taste of the psychological and emotional toll that is paid by someone who spends far more time talking to people than reading books. I do not intend that to sound "anti-intellectual" or whatever. But really, there is something that happens when we are repeatedly exposed to people's "stuff," and that kind of thing comes from experience. First, humans can only bottle up so much before it comes out. We need to have someone with whom we can confer. And NO, the session isn't automatically it. Perhaps someone comes to the pastor and the situation does not warrant discipline, or perhaps an elder is involved... the pastor can't go to the session prematurely. No, my wife is my help-meet. She's the only one on this earth that I have 100% confidence that she is on my side and will be in my corner when things get rough. So she is a safe person for me to talk to. When a minister comes home and he is worn down from a hard day of tough counseling - and some of us have those with more regularity than others - it can make our wives feel out in the cold and pushed away if you say "nothing, don't worry about it" when she asks what's wrong. Fundamentally, is your wife along for the ride - if so, then what you do is of no concern to her, just be quiet and cook dinner, woman. If, however, she is a partner - perhaps she even helps you counsel women or couples - then she is part of your ministry and should be someone in whom you can confide. Fortunately, Jesus Christ is not the Federal Government, and pastors are not deep-cover intelligence operatives. So don't stonewall her by saying "nothing." 

Of course, care should be taken to ensure that peoples privacy is maintained for their good and the good of your wife - if I come home and say, "Guess what! Mr. Wilson is having an affair with his secretary!" Then my wife would have a very difficult time looking at him or seeing him in the church again. So instead, if you are feeling down, I recommend responding to your wife's "what's wrong?" with something along the lines of "it was a tough day, a man came in and disclosed that he's been having an affair - so I'm still just processing how that conversation went."

That's something, and it lets your wife have a better insight into how to minister to you.

But "nothing?" Please.


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## KMK

SolaScriptura said:


> That said, the idea that we literally tell our wives "nothing." Is sophomoric and really, dangerous for the well-being of the minister and possibly of the marriage as well.



I agree. How can she be a 'help-meet' if she is told absolutely nothing. I would caution against going toward either extreme.

"Whenever I'm about to tell my wife something, I think, 'would an idiot tell his wife that?' And if they would, I do not tell my wife that thing." Pastor Schrute


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## Romans922

I don't tell my wife anything about those of my congregation unless they would want my wife to know. Other things I communicate with my Session. There are some things my wife should not know. Of those things I ask her to pray for me and the member(s) of the congregation (generally, no names). She is still my help-meet, but I also am called to protect her and not spread gossip.


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## SolaScriptura

KMK said:


> SolaScriptura said:
> 
> 
> 
> That said, the idea that we literally tell our wives "nothing." Is sophomoric and really, dangerous for the well-being of the minister and possibly of the marriage as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. How can she be a 'help-meet' if she is told absolutely nothing. I would caution against going toward either extreme.
> 
> "Whenever I'm about to tell my wife something, I think, 'would an idiot tell his wife that?' And if they would, I do not tell my wife that thing." Pastor Schrute
Click to expand...


Well played! 

Judgment and discretion are vital.


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## Jerusalem Blade

I think it is a matter of balance, and of wisdom. There have been times of counseling a person who fell into terrible sexual sins, and this on an ongoing basis (I had serious doubts as to this person's salvation). I would not tell my wife any of this, nor even hint as to the nature of the counseling sessions. She could not have handled it. Other times I would keep from her things I learned about others – even those in ministry – so as not to poison her mind toward them.

On the other hand, there are situations where she would not be unduly burdened or mentally poisoned, and where I greatly valued her wisdom. So I often confide in her when I deem it appropriate, and when I would not be violating confidentiality (I am retired now from the ministry, so this is much less an issue presently).

In sum, there is a balance between Scott's and Ben's views, sometimes leaning in one direction, and sometimes in the other. Plus I should also say, Ben's situation is unique in many respects, as he's pretty much alone in ministry, and it seems also that his wife is an unusual person.


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## SolaScriptura

Jerusalem Blade said:


> and it seems also that his wife is an unusual person.



... But only in the best of ways!


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## R. Scott Clark

Hi All,

That "nothing" is not absolute. Those things that a minister should not tell his wife are those things that he wouldn't tell anyone else in the congregation. Of course he can ask for prayer! Of course she can see that he's struggling. She can say, "I don't know what's going on but I love you." That's hugely encouraging. 

The minister just can't, however, tell "session stuff" or confidential things from session to his wife for the reasons I gave in the post. 

Thanks for the feedback.


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## JoannaV

I think the five reasons given were helpful. I don't entirely agree with "nothing he wouldn't tell anyone else in the congregation" though. Perhaps we are including different things in that "nothing". Perhaps he may not tell the details of his counselling session, but sometimes he may well tell his wife his feelings related to the session, that he would not tell anyone else in the congregation.


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## SolaScriptura

R. Scott Clark said:


> Those things that a minister should not tell his wife are those things that he wouldn't tell anyone else in the congregation.



But, see, I disagree even with that statement and the sentiment behind it. I read your post and your declaration that a pastor's wife is "just another" member of the church. But I don't buy that. My wife isn't just "some woman in the church." She's my helper, my partner, my confidant, my friend, my lover, my greatest sounding board, my "other half." Of course there are some things which I keep from her, and when I tell her some other things I obscure the details, and I'd encourage others to do the same. But keeping one's wife at arm's length as a matter of principle is unwise for a number of reasons.


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## Jack K

I think that article sounds like good advice for many pastors in typical church settings, but a lot depends on the situation.

My dad was a missionary pastor. He shared most of his struggles with church matters and even counseling sessions with my mom. He asked her advice and used her to keep himself grounded. There were other (elder-type) leaders in the church, but the cultural differences made them unable to share the burdens—and challenge my dad where necessary—in the same way my mom could. She was a great help to him because they shared nearly everything.


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## R. Scott Clark

SolaScriptura said:


> R. Scott Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> Those things that a minister should not tell his wife are those things that he wouldn't tell anyone else in the congregation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But, see, I disagree even with that statement and the sentiment behind it. I read your post and your declaration that a pastor's wife is "just another" member of the church. But I don't buy that. My wife isn't just "some woman in the church." She's my helper, my partner, my confidant, my friend, my lover, my greatest sounding board, my "other half." Of course there are some things which I keep from her, and when I tell her some other things I obscure the details, and I'd encourage others to do the same. But keeping one's wife at arm's length as a matter of principle is unwise for a number of reasons.
Click to expand...


Ben,

1. I don't keep Mrs Clark at arms length. She has given me two wonderful children. 

2. For the purposes of the official ministry of the church she is just another member. She has no office. The fact that she's married to you does not give her even an unofficial office in the church. 

3. Of course you can tell her that you're frustrated and hurt or whatever but you shouldn't tell her why, if that why entails divulging matters that belong in the session or counseling room. 

4. There's a fine line here. I'm urging discretion, erring on the side of caution for the sake of your wife, your family, and your congregation.

The members of the congregation should not look at her and wonder what she knows about them.


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## SolaScriptura

R. Scott Clark said:


> SolaScriptura said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> R. Scott Clark said:
> 
> 
> 
> Those things that a minister should not tell his wife are those things that he wouldn't tell anyone else in the congregation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But, see, I disagree even with that statement and the sentiment behind it. I read your post and your declaration that a pastor's wife is "just another" member of the church. But I don't buy that. My wife isn't just "some woman in the church." She's my helper, my partner, my confidant, my friend, my lover, my greatest sounding board, my "other half." Of course there are some things which I keep from her, and when I tell her some other things I obscure the details, and I'd encourage others to do the same. But keeping one's wife at arm's length as a matter of principle is unwise for a number of reasons.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ben,
> 
> 1. I don't keep Mrs Clark at arms length. She has given me two wonderful children.
> 
> 2. For the purposes of the official ministry of the church she is just another member. She has no office. The fact that she's married to you does not give her even an unofficial office in the church.
> 
> 3. Of course you can tell her that you're frustrated and hurt or whatever but you shouldn't tell her why, if that why entails divulging matters that belong in the session or counseling room.
> 
> 4. There's a fine line here. I'm urging discretion, erring on the side of caution for the sake of your wife, your family, and your congregation.
> 
> The members of the congregation should not look at her and wonder what she knows about them.
Click to expand...


I didn't mean at arm's length, _physically_... 

So I'm guessing you're also opposed to the practice of many ministers of having their spouses with them when they counsel women or couples?

The bottom line is that for you, she's just some lady in the church and for me, she's my other-half. You have a theology of ministry and church offices - and an apparent theology of marriage - that I believe on this subject is flawed. If your practice works for you, then fine. But trust me - keeping a shroud of secrecy over what transpires at "work" is a dangerous marital policy, which is why I think it is unnatural. But what do I know.

Before I forget: I think your donations box thing on your blog is hilariously awesome.


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## Contra_Mundum

SolaScriptura said:


> Before I forget: I think your donations box thing on your blog is hilariously awesome


Ka-chIIIIIng-iling-iling-iling!


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## Pergamum

Overstated article. 

To say that the "nothing" is not "absolute" was sort of funny to read ("nothing" sounds pretty absolute).

If God has chosen my wife for me and God has called me into ministry, there is a real sense in which a pastor or missionary wife is not merely just another member of a church even though they are not a semi-officer. 

There is no way to neatly dichotomize one's home and work life, unless the pastorate is merely a job and not a calling and part of one's very identity. Being able to talk to one's wife at least generally about problems would be nice. A pastor is not a spy or part of the CIA; most of what he does is not secret. There is a need for occasional confidentiality but most things which happen can be talked about to his wife.


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## littlepeople

I think there are two distinct issues which are being mashed together. One is that of a wearied pastor going to his helpmeet for support and encouragement. The other is that of a pastor going to his wife for consultation/advice/sounding board. One of these requires the pastor to divulge private information about another member of the church to his wife, and the other doesn't. At least I don't see how it would require it.


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## Alan D. Strange

This is something that I've had occasion to address with a number of people in a number of settings, not only in counseling and pastoral ministry, but also having served on my denomination's Committee on Appeals and Complaints for the last two decades.

What I tell my wife is a matter of wisdom, discretion, and the like on my part. Many things I don't tell her and many things she wouldn't want me to. When I do it's because I believe that for some reason she has a need to know and/or I have a need for her input. I don't tell her things that I believe would in any way be detrimental to her and she's never betrayed a confidence in all the years--never. I know that I can trust her to keep confidence and that she has real insight and understanding of many things, seeing certain things much more clearly than I. I consider her my wisest counselor. 

All that having been said, I am always a little amazed at this conversation, because what I tell my wife, and what she tells me, is our business and no one else's (I exclude God from this, of course, as all that I do and say is His business and subject to His judgment). Ben has gotten at this in some of what he's said. In short, my wife is my other self, so united to me that at law our confidences are considered inviolate: civil law has considered confidences between couples sacrosanct and they cannot be forced to testify against each other. This reality ought to mean something in this situation. Yes my wife needs to be able to be a member of the church. No, she is not an officer of the church. But she is my wife, my help, and I need to be able to engage her as is mutually beneficial for us both.

I've always found it slightly amusing and amazing that some sessions have sought to enforce "you may not tell your wife" rules. You certainly may not if she cannot keep absolute confidence with you. But no one has a right to tell me that if my wife and I can maintain such; no one may rightly say, "You may not tell your wife such." It's not my business what you tell your wife or what she tells you. Because I share a confidence doesn't mean that I am gossiping to my wife. I may be, given a whole host of considerations. And I may not be doing that.

Often, as Steve said, we don't tell. Frankly, if I am in a situation where I need wisdom and counsel as how to proceed, I can call a trusted confidant and seek his advice. I omit names and many details. I may do the same with my wife. To think, however, that not telling my wife, or seeking wise advice from her or another, is paramount, is to mistake what's truly paramount: to get the needed counsel to help the troubled soul. Again, all of this has to be taken on a case-by-case basis and some things are so delicate as demanding the greatest of care, prudence, and confidence. One ought not simply to lay down a principle that could be more costly to follow than not. 

Peace,
Alan


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## SolaScriptura

Thank you, Alan. I realize my ministry context is a bit different than that of a "normal" pastor. But it is good to know that I am not alone in my conviction or practice.


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## kodos

There are many pastor's wives that should indeed be told nothing. I know of one. And it wasn't even anything scandalous but rather a difference of theology we were struggling with and disagreed with the session that made her cold (all of a sudden) towards us even though her husband was very kind (at least, outwardly). 

Seen it happen to others.

I guess the perspective can differ if you are a lay-person or someone seeking counseling.


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## Alan D. Strange

Thanks, Ron, for your note of concern as it applies to a particular case. That you knew of a case, as I'm sure many of us do, that serves as a cautionary tale with respect to the divulgence of matters does not, of course, mean that ministers are thereby forbidden from speaking to their wives as they see fit. I am not suggesting that you are mandating anything, only giving us a difficult case. And, again as we all know, hard cases make bad laws. We don't want to deduce from any instances in which we've seen a problem with a minister's wife handling confidential information that there should thus be a policy of silence enforced. 

A minister must know his wife in this as a husband is, in everything, to live with his wife with understanding (I Peter 3:7). I have to be wise about what my wife should know, when she should know it, how much she should know, etc. If this will be a detriment to her, then I'll not tell her. But I never have a right to be somewhere, with someone, or to be doing something--anything--of which my wife is unaware. This does not mean that she needs details but it means that I must do more than simply say, "trust me," as to what I am involved with and in. 

Our lawyers on the PB could help us with this, but I looked in a law journal or two about the reason for marital confidentiality and the reasons given are fascinating, centered largely on "confidence and trust is so key to marriage that the imagined legal good of any disclosure that spouses may make about each other is outweighed by the good that such confidentiality and trust engenders in the marriage." Because some ministers' wives may struggle here--as in anything else--does not mean that no ministers' wives should be brought into some confidences, according to the situation. 

Peace,
Alan


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## R. Scott Clark

> I didn't mean at arm's length, _physically_...
> 
> So I'm guessing you're also opposed to the practice of many ministers of having their spouses with them when they counsel women or couples?
> 
> The bottom line is that for you, she's just some lady in the church and for me, she's my other-half. You have a theology of ministry and church offices - and an apparent theology of marriage - that I believe on this subject is flawed. If your practice works for you, then fine. But trust me - keeping a shroud of secrecy over what transpires at "work" is a dangerous marital policy, which is why I think it is unnatural. But what do I know.
> 
> Before I forget: I think your donations box thing on your blog is hilariously awesome.



Ben,

We've been discussing this in the combox on the HB. I'm a bear of very little brain and can't juggle the PB and the HB. Check it out.

Apparently the coffer wasn't amusing enough to move to you make a donation.  What do I need to add? dancing Monkeys?


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## R. Scott Clark

Perg,

So, "world" and "all" in John must be taken absolutely?


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## Pergamum

Nope....just "nothing."


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## mvdm

Alan is correct that legal marital privilege is grounded in recognition of the unique marital relationship of husband and wife. In Indiana, the marital privilege is codified at Indiana Code section 34-46-3-1 (1999) , which provides in relevant part, “Except as otherwise provided by statute, the following persons shall not be required to testify regarding the following communications: ... Husband and wife, as to communications made to each other." This marital communications privilege is restricted to confidential communications and information gained by reason of the marital relationship, and not every communication between spouses is protected by virtue of the marital relationship. Dixson v. State, 865 N.E.2d 704, 713 (Ind.Ct.App.2007) , trans. denied. Indeed, only those communications passing from one spouse to the other because of the confidence resulting from their intimate marriage relationship receive such protection. Id. 

Thus, if Alan is correct that the communications between pastors and wives regarding church matters are "resulting from their intimate marriage relationship" (which would be hard to disprove), then such communications would fall within the marital privilege.


As to the wisdom issue, there actually are situations that mandate the opposite of Clark's dichotomized approach. Based on my experience, I have in mind situations where the issue involves a close friend or family member of the wife, and failure to disclose the matter could place her in a spiritually precarious or dangerous situation. Let's dispense with the idea that disclosure equates with inapproriate conferral of "office" or "consistorial authority" upon the wife. Rather it can reflect a loving protection of the wife, a mutual sharing of burden, and the exercise of common sense-- which can easily go out the window when we apply wooden rules that put life into unnatural, sealed- off compartments.


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## SolaScriptura

R. Scott Clark said:


> Apparently the coffer wasn't amusing enough to move to you make a donation.  What do I need to add? dancing Monkeys?



That's because I've been seared by all the money-raising pitches by missionaries over the years. If you want me to be moved, I need to see starving babies, crying old women, you holding a young child with an impassioned look on your face... you know... MOVE ME.


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## Caroline

Mr. Strange, your advice is excellent. Marriages have very different dynamics, depending on the people involved. If a pastor's wife tends to blurt out confidential information in public, he is probably wise to limit what he tells her. If she prefers not to be burdened with church troubles, then he may respect that. But other people are not that way. If my husband started keeping secrets from me, his involvement in whatever office he was involved in would end abruptly as I threw the most magnificent fit in the history of our marriage. The author's assumption that the woman "doesn't want to know" and would prefer to be kept blissfully unaware definitely does not apply to everyone.

Good rule of thumb: If you don't want the wife to know, don't tell the husband. If you don't want the husband to know, don't tell the wife. Assuming that married couples don't talk to each other is a bad bet. When I talk to my pastor, I proceed on the assumption that he tells it all to his wife. As long as she can keep confidential information confidential, that's fine with me. Pastors need someone to talk to, just like I do. And I am more comfortable knowing that there are four people in the conversation: me, my pastor, my husband, and my pastor's wife. Just as long as it doesn't go further than that.


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## nicnap

Caroline said:


> his involvement in whatever office he was involved in would end abruptly as I threw the most magnificent fit in the history of our marriage


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## KMK

Pergamum said:


> Nope....just "nothing."



Should I take 'nope' to be in an absolute sense?


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## Romans922

Caroline said:


> If my husband started keeping secrets from me, his involvement in whatever office he was involved in would end abruptly as I threw the most magnificent fit in the history of our marriage. The author's assumption that the woman "doesn't want to know" and would prefer to be kept blissfully unaware definitely does not apply to everyone.



Not accusing you of this, but it may be a sinful desire to want to know things that an office bearing husband does know. I feel that way at times as an office bearer. If only I knew the information, I know I am not supposed to know the juicy gossip, but let me only know and it won't go past me. 

Now I have said there are things I will not tell my wife. My wife sinfully desires to know the things at times (over time she has become more sanctified in this regard), but more and more my wife appreciates not being told because she knows I am protecting her from gossip (as well as myself and the sin of the 9th commandment). She knows I am protecting her from bitterness, bad thoughts that could come out of her knowing towards another, and the list goes on. Am I able to tell her that I am struggling with something or in need of wisdom for a situation in the Church? Yes, but she also knows she can't know all the details or who is involved. 

But the thing is, not everyone is called to be the wife of an office-bearer. Indeed Pastors do need to be able to talk to someone about the private things that are communicated by members of the congregation. God has given us a large amount of people to communicate with: 1) Within the congregation - elders and/or deacons (depending on the issue); 2) Within the Presbytery - elders; and 3) Those elder-friends outside of your own Presbytery and/or denomination (we even have an elders only section on the PB for such conversations). From the different groups, I have many men that I can confide in and ask for prayer concerning. I am able to seek wisdom, etc. But I can tell you very clearly that my wife is not called to be a Pastor/elder. She is not called to deal with the issues, pressures, decisions, etc that are involved. Yet, God has provided each elder with other elders help them and be a listening ear. 

Now again, does this dismiss the need of communication with my wife? Absolutely not. I must communicate with my wife about most everything. And even if that is, in these cases, very general (e.g. There is a woman of the congregation who is struggling with a sin, please be in prayer for her and the Session as we seek to help her.). Let's even pray right now.


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## Contra_Mundum

Maybe I'm the one who's misreading RSC here, but I tend to see what he's saying as a (slight) hyperbole. Why not ask (and listen) to where he's willing to "take it back" a notch, in response to specific questions.

I believe I'm in agreement with the basic thrust of what he intends to say. We aren't talking about the same sort of situation, in which a corporate leader's wife gets a little pillow-talk about a big board meeting, or is useful as a sounding board for a big decision about the company's new product line. The boss' wife doesn't (necessarily) live in the same neighborhood as the rest of the employees, send her kids to the same schools, or spend considerable time with them and their families in the most significant social-context. But in the church, many or all of these things are true--the elder's wife is also a common parishioner.

If the church members aren't comfortable with her, because they are not sure what "privileged info" she's been apprised of, that is a negative dynamic. And the smaller the church, the more damaging it must be, because there is no place (no trusted inner circle of friends) for her to retreat. I think this is the sort of thing that RSC is cognizant of, and concerned about.

I would not give my wife (much) more information than is public, based on a look at the Session minutes. Her relations to the membership should be as free and uncumbered as any other person is like to have with some brother or sister or another. And they should see her as a person with views of them uncolored by private revelations, that her husband may know about.

I realize that not every situation is the same. And there may be situations where this reluctance I have is not as appropriate. I'm not going to put my conviction as uncompromisingly as RSC, even as I'm in basic agreement with him. I appreciate what he said, and what I believe is the spirit in which he said it. The kind of woman you married will determine some of what you may/should say to her. But she is not "the sixth man." And your use of her should be with a care for her freedom.


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## Caroline

Well, again... it depends on the couple. As far as my husband and I are concerned, however, we work together on these things. People may like that or not like that, but it is our relationship. My husband and I don't build our marriage around the opinions of other people. If they don't like it, they can choose someone else for these church leadership offices. If they are too uncomfortable around me, then I will find other friends. 

I don't think it is a gossipy desire to know (I purposely avoid asking my pastor things that might compromise confidentiality about other people if he answered them), but it is just the way my marriage is. That doesn't mean everyone's marriage has to be that way, but some definitely are. 

I do think that it is often wise for officers to talk to spouses about some things (how much depends on the particular people involved and the nature of the relationship). Pastors are expected to offer counsel to women and to manage the education of children in Sunday school. Sometimes it can be really helpful to have a female perspective on these things. Even in matters of budgets and so on, it is good to have the input of the women. Otherwise, men's programs tend to get the bulk of the money and women get very little, because the men have no idea what the women would like to do. 

However it happens, there needs to be some communication.


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