# Hypothetical question



## tonyhipps (Jan 12, 2009)

I wasn't sure where to post this, but I believe this is the correct place.

Suppose you were looking for an Associate Pastor, and the congregation insisted that the candidate have a M.Div degree, would you consider a candidate if the school he graduated from was accredited by DETC.

If I'm not mistaken ATS (Association of Theological Schools) is considered the best national accrediting body for seminaries. I think the next best is ABHE (Association for Biblical Higher Education), and then TRACS (Transnational Association Of Christian Colleges and Schools).

DETC is an accrediting body recognized by the U.S. Department of Education for online schools, but it is not exclusively religious, or theological.

One school they accredit teaches photography, another gemology, and another intelligence/counter-terrorism and so on. I believe they accredit three Religious Schools.

So if you were searching for an Associate Pastor, and the congregation insisted that the candidate have a M.Div degree, would he be considered if the school he graduated from was accredited by DETC.

I understand that some may want to reply that schooling isn't as important as being a man of God or being a great teacher, or something along those lines, please play along, this is a hypothetical question in which a M.Div is a prerequisite.

Thanks,



Tony


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## Zeno333 (Jan 12, 2009)

Does he thoroughly know Greek and Hebrew?? 
I think any Associate pastor should. As kid I went to a huge Presbyterian church, and that had one senior pastor, and a slew of different Assistant and Associate pastors, and they ALL knew Greek and Hebrew.


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## Wannabee (Jan 12, 2009)

Zeno333 said:


> Does he thoroughly know Greek and Hebrew??



Thoroughly?!?!?!?!?! That wipes out quite a few of us. It doesn't seem to be in the qualifications of 1 Tim 3 or Titus 1. Maybe I missed something... 

Does the man fit the character qualifications for the position of elder? If not, then he's not qualified. If it can't be assessed, at least by a sister church you can trust, then he should at least have a probationary period (I think he should regardless). Can he teach? Does he aspire? Do his doctrinal positions line up with the church? Any other distinctives that might be an issue? What his philosophy of ministry? He can learn the languages while serving, though they are definitely helpful. He can grow in his theological understanding, and should, if he is teachable and humble. 

If his qualifications were contingent upon where he received his degree, then Spurgeon would have never been a preacher. He did have a working knowledge of the languages though. 


my


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## Whitefield (Jan 12, 2009)

tonyhipps said:


> So if you were searching for an Associate Pastor, and the congregation insisted that the candidate have a M.Div degree, would he be considered if the school he graduated from was accredited by DETC.



Yes, if that were acceptable to the congregation who set the requirement of the M.Div.


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## tonyhipps (Jan 12, 2009)

This school teaches basic courses in Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic but nothing exhaustive.

Below is a summary of the Greek and Hebrew classes offered. I cut and pasted below:

Biblical Greek (BRS 8)

Course Summary

The language of the New Testament, with illustrations of its usefulness to a study of the New Testament 

This course includes an introduction to the Greek language, its basic grammar and vocabulary, and issues of translation and exegesis related to working with original biblical texts of the New Testament. The course is organized in 5 modules: (1) "Biblical Greek" and Its Sound and Writing System, (2) Basic Grammar of Koiné Greek, (3) The Sources for Working with Koiné Greek Texts, (4) Working with New Testament Texts, and (5) Issues of Translation and Exegesis. 3 semester hours of undergraduate credit.

The standard for receiving credit for the course shall be the attainment of the following competencies:

1. A basic knowledge of the writing, sound and grammatical system of the koine Greek language and a passive command of basic vocabulary

2. Knowing major sources for working with the texts of biblical Greek

3. Knowing major issues of translation and exegesis related to working with Greek texts of the New Testament


Biblical Hebrew (BRS 9)

Course Summary

An introduction to the language of the Old Testament, with illustrations of its usefulness to a study of the Old Testament

This course offers an introduction to the written language of the Old Testament, that is, biblical Hebrew with some small textual portions of Aramaic (Daniel 2:4 to 7:28, Ezra 4:8 to 6:18, 7:12-26). You will be introduced to the script and sound system of that language, its basic grammar and vocabulary, and its historical and cultural settings. In addition, some issues of translation and exegesis of original biblical texts of the Old Testament will also be considered.

This course is organized in 5 modules: (1) A First Encounter , (2) A Grammatical Survey of Hebrew, (3) Working with Biblical Hebrew Texts, (4) Resources for Working with Hebrew Texts, and (5) Aspects of Translation and Exegesis. 3 semester hours of undergraduate credit 

The standard for receiving credit for the course shall be the attainment of the following competencies:

1. Knowledge of the historical and cultural settings related to the development of biblical Hebrew and its relation to Aramaic in the Bible

2. Basic knowledge of the writing, sound, and grammatical system of the Hebrew language and a passive command of basic vocabulary

3. Ability to use the major lexicographical and other sources for working with the texts of biblical Hebrew

4. Awareness of major issues of translation and exegesis in working with texts of the OT in biblical Hebrew


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## Guido's Brother (Jan 12, 2009)

tonyhipps said:


> This school teaches basic courses in Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic but nothing exhaustive.



How can I say this nicely? I don't know if there is a way. That's simply pathetic. 2 Timothy 2:15 speaks of "rightly dividing the word of God." I would think that's enough basis to argue for as thorough a knowledge of the original languages as is possible in four years of seminary training. 

By way of comparison, our Canadian Reformed seminary requires students to have had two years of Greek and one year (preferably two) of Hebrew *as an entrance requirement* -- and one year of Latin as well. 

During the four year M.Div. program, Greek and Hebrew is studied intensively every year. By the time I graduated with my M.Div., I'd had six years of Greek and five and a half years of Hebrew (plus a half year of Aramaic). Overkill? Not at all! Every week I'm grateful for this intensive training.


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## tonyhipps (Jan 12, 2009)

I agree this school needs to beef up its language programs, but in MHO I believe someone can pastor a church effectively by diligently studying his English Bible.


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## Zeno333 (Jan 12, 2009)

tonyhipps said:


> I agree this school needs to beef up its language programs, but in MHO I believe someone can pastor a church effectively by diligently studying his English Bible.



I must tactfully disagree with you on that one big time.

Many churches require their pastor to know Greek and Hebrew for what I feel are very good reasons.

A pastor needs to know those languages to effectively "lead" the lay members of the flock.


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## Theognome (Jan 12, 2009)

In the church I attend, many of the congregation (including myself) are studied to some extent in Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic. If the pastor does not have a working knowledge of these, it could hamper his ministry.

That being said, I feel that knowing these languages is secondary to adherence and ability to defend the confessions and creeds of the church. 

Theognome


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## Guido's Brother (Jan 13, 2009)

Theognome said:


> That being said, I feel that knowing these languages is secondary to adherence and ability to defend the confessions and creeds of the church.



Many times being able to defend the confessions of the church requires a knowledge of the original languages of Scripture. Allow me to call to the stand Guido de Bres:

De Bres vs. Simons: A Sixteenth Century Debate That Still Matters


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## larryjf (Jan 13, 2009)

I would say that the school is more important than the accreditor.

The ATS accredits both liberal and conservative...both dispensational and covenantal. So to judge a candidate based on the accreditor would be a mistake in my opinion.

I think there are great Reformed schools that are accredited by the Association of Reformed Theological Seminaries (ARTS), even though they aren't regionally accredited.
I would be more inclined to accept an M.Div. from the ARTS-accredited Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary than from the ATS-accredited Oral Roberts University School of Theology.


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## Wannabee (Jan 13, 2009)

Gentlemen,

Perg, when you plant a church and begin to assign elders, must they learn Greek and Hebrew first? Could you leave a church and consider it a successful plant if biblical leadership had been established and they were equipped and capable of teaching God's Word in their own language week in and week out, though none knew Greek or Hebrew? I'm picking on you only because you are a missionary. But do we really think that a man cannot be a shepherd of God's flock if he does not know Greek or Hebrew?

I agree wholeheartedly that some working knowledge of the languages is invaluable in helping a man fulfill his duties as a shepherd of God's flock. Some have said that he must "know" the languages. Unless you can think in the language, then you do not know it. Such an imposition on God's standard for the elder should be avoided. Did the elders in Ephesus know Hebrew? How about the ones in Rome? Macedonia? Crete? Some may have, but Paul makes it clear that the requirements for an elder/pastor in Christ's church must meet _character qualifications_ first and foremost. Then, they must be able to teach. Languages, perhaps especially in this day and age, are invaluable. They help the man of God protect the flock from heresy and doctrinal deviations that may lead them astray. But to say that they are mandatory for the office of pastor is to impose a qualification that God does not.


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## toddpedlar (Jan 13, 2009)

tonyhipps said:


> I agree this school needs to beef up its language programs, but in MHO I believe someone can pastor a church effectively by diligently studying his English Bible.



Diligent study of the English Bible can lead to all sorts of error if the underlying Hebrew and Greek are not well understood. The primary languages MUST be known, and known well enough to distinguish truth from error, and to ground preaching in. The worry that the demands of original language study is too much for pastoral candidates is unfounded, and a worrisome development in today's church.


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