# Recommendations on Undergraduate Education?



## Filter (Feb 19, 2019)

Hello!

I was wondering if anyone here had any recommendations for a good Bible College to look into. I am hoping to start school in Spring 2020, and have been for the last six months looked into different institutions. I've narrowed it down a bit to a few schools, but want to take into consideration some colleges which others here may recommend.

Basically, I'm looking for an esteemed school that also is _affordable_. I have been in full time volunteer/support based ministry for the past five years, so I have very little of my own (currently) that I'll be able to contribute right away. From what I've been able to research, Boyce College would be my ideal college, but the financial aspect is difficult for me to swallow. I'm not holding myself to a confessionally reformed institution, although that is a plus. I would like to attend a school that would set me up later for graduate studies, so I do not want to attend a school whose credits won't be recognized by seminaries. 

Any guidance would be appreciated. I also am engaged to be married in June, so hospitality towards married couples is a big plus as well (my fiance would also like to attend). As far as serious contention goes, we have looked quite a bit into Alaska Bible College, a small yet accredited (by the ABHE) school from where my sister-in-law is from. It's price range is in our target (4500 but possibly down to 3500/semester), I have family there, and I am friends with the former president who endorsed it and who is now the academic dean of a Bible College here in Hawaii. However, we are certainly not committed and want to search out institutions more diligently. Any direction, advice, or recommendations would be appreciated. Mahalo.

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## J.L. Allen (Feb 19, 2019)

My only recommendation based on cost and accreditation alone is Moody Bible Institute in Chicago. I currently attend. There are a ton of land mines, but it’s not all bad. Message me if you want more information.


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## Hamalas (Feb 19, 2019)

Reformation Bible College would be worth looking into. They actually have a partnership with Puritan Seminary where you can get a joint B.A./M.Div in 6 years. https://www.reformationbiblecollege.org/

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## J.L. Allen (Feb 19, 2019)

Hamalas said:


> Reformation Bible College would be worth looking into. They actually have a partnership with Puritan Seminary where you can get a joint B.A./M.Div in 6 years. https://www.reformationbiblecollege.org/


Forget what I said. Do this!

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## Bill Duncan (Feb 20, 2019)

Why specifically a "Bible" college?


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## Jake (Feb 20, 2019)

My general recommendation if you intend to go into ministry would be to get a useful undergraduate degree that will also help you provide for your family (accounting, computer science, engineering, etc.), as the vast majority of Reformed churches will want you to go to seminary afterwards.

Another option to do both, to take many Bible/theology classes while getting a more useful degree for employment, is to pursue a degree at a Christian college like Covenant College, Grove City College, Geneva College, etc. I went this route, thinking I might end up going to seminary at some point. I was able to get myself skills (through studying Economics and Computer Science) that allowed me to get a good job to support my family, but I also took many Bible and Theology classes. I am not currently pursuing ordained ministry, but I'm able to use what I've learned in serving my local church (currently as a sunday school teacher).

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## Timotheos (Feb 20, 2019)

Jake said:


> My general recommendation if you intend to go into ministry would be to get a useful undergraduate degree that will also help you provide for your family (accounting, computer science, engineering, etc.), as the vast majority of Reformed churches will want you to go to seminary afterwards.
> 
> Another option to do both, to take many Bible/theology classes while getting a more useful degree for employment, is to pursue a degree at a Christian college like Covenant College, Grove City College, Geneva College, etc. I went this route, thinking I might end up going to seminary at some point. I was able to get me skills (through studying Economics and Computer Science) that allowed me to get a good job to support my family, but I also took many Bible and Theology classes. I am not currently pursuing ordained ministry, but I'm able to use what I've learned in serving my local church (currently as a sunday school teacher).


This!!!! 

If I could go back in time, I would not do Bible college.

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## Edward (Feb 20, 2019)

Filter said:


> I was wondering if anyone here had any recommendations for a good Bible College to look into.



I'd recommend "None".



Jake said:


> My general recommendation if you intend to go into ministry would be to get a useful undergraduate degree that will also help you provide for your family (accounting, computer science, engineering, etc.), as the vast majority of Reformed churches will want you to go to seminary afterwards.



 

In addition, it would get you out of the echo chamber for a few years.

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## Filter (Feb 20, 2019)

Thank you for your replies, I appreciate your advice. I would like some more specifics on why you wouldn't recommend Bible college, as that would help clarify much for me.

I do have an associates in network design, helping out local ministries and doing some side work in it, but I really don't have a desire to pursue that any further educationally or exploring it more vocationally. To be honest, the concept of pursuing a degree for trade or career opportunity hasn't at any point crossed my mind.

As for why a Bible college, it is simply that everything pales in comparison to my passion for studying the Bible and strengthening my relationship with the Lord. It is truly the only thing that I have desire to invest in at the level that college requires. Far above anything career or ministry oriented, I'm very interested in the personal and spiritual growth that can be attained with much full time devotion to studying God's Word.

I do, Lord willing, want to attend graduate school soon afterward. Pardon my probable ignorance, but if seminaries accept students with secular undergraduate degrees, would there be a strong sense of redundancy at seminary if one already completed a Bachelor's in theology/ministry at a Bible college? Also, if it is applicable, I do not feel a call nor desire to full time pastoral or counselor ministry.

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## ZackF (Feb 20, 2019)

I defer to most anyone else's opinion on this but I think you can find what you're looking for at a solid Christian college and not necessarily a bible college.


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## Bill Duncan (Feb 21, 2019)

Jake,

I am no expert on obtaining an education, but I am an expert on wasting an education. Had someone given me the advice I am about to give you I would have done things differently.

Undergraduate education is, by design, to teach you how to think not what to think. Graduate programs are for teaching what to think. My problem with bible colleges are not specific to their genre. Rather it is whether they are necessary for the believer who wants to pursue education post secondary. One of the finest pastor/theologians I know received his undergraduate degree from a small state supported community college. While he was getting his degree he worked two jobs, and worked at his church. While he was doing this he hammered out what his doctrinal positions were. Then he was able to choose the seminary which best fit his belief system. He stayed home to get the basics, didn't spend much money to do it, remained under the watchful care of his church and his family, and had a support system of friends to get him through. When the foundation was built and made firm, he then uprooted and moved coast to coast to seminary.

I never attended seminary, though believe me, I laid all the groundwork. God had different plans for me. He frustrated mine, which were flawed.

Here is my advice. ( notice all the gray in my beard) 
1) Seek the counsel of your Church leadership. Ask them to very your gifts. Realizing you say you have no "feeling" of a call to the gospel ministry, the call is not only internal but external. Ask them if they see giftings you do not. Ask them to pray with and for you.

2) Ask your fiancée what her expectations are for you and your role as husband. Unrealized expectations in a marriage are great stumbling blocks. Talk about all your options and the pros and cons. Your first ministry is to her.

3)If you have a good sense of your doctrinal positions find out what are the seminaries which are most in line with them and contact a student relations advisor there. Ask about undergraduate recommendations. Tell them your thoughts and ask for their evaluation.

4) Test the spirits. Search the word and use it as your scale to weigh what motivates you. This can be painful and should not be done alone. Find someone, who knows you well and will be brutally honest to see if the preceptive will of God, Rom 12:2, Mark 3:35, will be offended by your decisions. In other words, would your choice of furthering your education be sinful. I know that sounds strange but you have to look at your motives and any side effects(people injured, obligations left unfilled, financial impropriety,etc.).

I hope not to be a wet blanket but rather an advocate.

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## Jake (Feb 21, 2019)

Filter said:


> Thank you for your replies, I appreciate your advice. I would like some more specifics on why you wouldn't recommend Bible college, as that would help clarify much for me.
> 
> I do have an associates in network design, helping out local ministries and doing some side work in it, but I really don't have a desire to pursue that any further educationally or exploring it more vocationally. To be honest, the concept of pursuing a degree for trade or career opportunity hasn't at any point crossed my mind.
> 
> ...



Increasingly our day, especially in confessional Reformed churches, it can be difficult to get a call that will support your family, especially early on. Many ministers are required to be bi-vocational, or have periods before and between calls. For one, it is useful to have work that you can fall back on to support your family.

Lots of students do not go into seminary with a Bible school degree. If you really want to best prepare yourself for seminary, you might want to consider fields like Philosophy, English, Greek, or Linguistics that I've heard can be helpful for that endeavor.

However, the curriculum is structured in such a way that you do not need a particular undergraduate degree, so it can be useful to have other goals in mind for your undergraduate. I focused on the practical aspect of being able to support your family with something that easily makes money. Other aspects to think about could be helping you learn to think in different ways, getting a deeper understanding of languages, and so on.

The other issue is that they're aren't great pure Bible school options from a Reformed perspective. Most Reformed undergraduate institutions are liberal arts colleges. However, they will have some sort of Bible/theology/ministry degree available. Boyce is fine for a Southern Baptist institution. NAPARC schools include Covenant College, Erskine College, and Geneva College. Conservative PCUSA schools include Montreat College, Belhaven College, and Grove City College. There is also Providence Christian College (a lot of influence from NAPARC churches) and Dordt College (the more conservative CRC school). I don't recommend all of these schools, but they're a starting place. There are some Reformed Bible colleges, but most are small and/or unaccredited. Reformation Bible College come to mind.

I would suggest you complete your Associate's and get an IT/business related Bachelor's degree. It would take less time than an entire new Bachelor's degree, be useful, and then allow you to go to seminary quicker. Even if it is an A.A.S. or A.A.T, you can do a program like a B.A.S. (Bachelor of Applied Science) to get a bachelor's degree in just 2 years or less. My local community college offers these, and they're becoming more common as an affordable option.

If you're really set on doing an undergraduate in Bible/theology, I would look into options that allow you to combine some of your credits between undergraduate and M.Div. An example would be that Reformation Bible College has options to do an accelerated degree with Westminster Theological Seminary. This way, you can apply credits from undergraduate towards your graduate degree. I've heard of similar arrangements with Covenant College and Knox Theological Seminary and Covenant Theological Seminary, though neither of those seminaries would be near the top of my list of seminaries to recommend.

I would also try to figure out what requirements are for the church in which you're looking to be ordained. I'm assuming you're not in an ideal situation if you're in an independent church while holding to the Three Forms of Unity. If you're considering ordination in a 3FU denomination (URC, RCUS, etc.) it would probably be wise to reach out and see what seminaries and educational requirements are suggested. For example, I think RCUS has certain seminaries that they highly recommend their students attend.


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## EcclesiaDiscens. (Feb 21, 2019)

Jake said:


> My general recommendation if you intend to go into ministry would be to get a useful undergraduate degree that will also help you provide for your family (accounting, computer science, engineering, etc.), as the vast majority of Reformed churches will want you to go to seminary afterwards.
> 
> Another option to do both, to take many Bible/theology classes while getting a more useful degree for employment, is to pursue a degree at a Christian college like Covenant College, Grove City College, Geneva College, etc. I went this route, thinking I might end up going to seminary at some point. I was able to get myself skills (through studying Economics and Computer Science) that allowed me to get a good job to support my family, but I also took many Bible and Theology classes. I am not currently pursuing ordained ministry, but I'm able to use what I've learned in serving my local church (currently as a sunday school teacher).




I would second this advice. I went to undergrad for a Bachelor's in Supply Chain and Operations Management while pursuing theological studies in my own time.


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## Edward (Feb 21, 2019)

Filter said:


> but I really don't have a desire to pursue that any further educationally or exploring it more vocationally. To be honest, the concept of pursuing a degree for trade or career opportunity hasn't at any point crossed my mind.





Filter said:


> Also, if it is applicable, I do not feel a call nor desire to full time pastoral or counselor ministry.



There are three possible conclusions one could draw from that:

1) You are independently wealthy and have no need to work for money and can afford to indulge your interests.

2) You anticipate ending your academic studies with a professorship that will enable you to support your family. 

3) You are counting on Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Green New Deal. 

Have I missed something?

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## Andrew35 (Feb 22, 2019)

Edward said:


> There are three possible conclusions one could draw from that:
> 
> 1) You are independently wealthy and have no need to work for money and can afford to indulge your interests.
> 
> ...



Adding to that, if...

1) I'm insanely jealous

2) Don't! Please, just don't

3) Some Puerto Ricans are crazier than others.


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## Filter (Feb 26, 2019)

Thank you for your responses and for the clarifications, I appreciate you taking time to respond. I'll certainly be careful to be prayerful and receive wisdom from others when making decisions.

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## greenbaggins (Feb 26, 2019)

I will continue to echo the advice of T. David Gordon in his book _Why Johnny Can't Preach_. If you are as set on seminary education as you seem to be, get a degree in English, not Bible, for your undergraduate studies. Why? Because a good education in English will help you in the following ESSENTIAL areas: 1. analyzing a text (most guys enter seminary and they don't know what to do with a text at all); 2. grammar (this makes Hebrew and Greek MUCH more manageable); 3. rhetoric (you'll be set for sermon prep). Alongside this advice, make sure you have something else you can do that will provide for your family.

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## Romans922 (Feb 26, 2019)

I went to bible college. I'm 15 yrs removed from it and still paying money on the loan (it's on deferment right now thankfully). I have come now being reformed to believe that loans for education to be sinful. What did I learn in bible college, I learned more about bible and became reformed from studying from my friends rather than I did at Bible college, and I majored in Bible. A positive was that I learned Greek in the time I was there, but it was a complete waste of money. And my family still suffers because of it.

If I were in your shoes, I'd go to a community college for 2 yrs local to where you are now, get an Associates degree. Then transfer to a 4 yr university. In that time, you would not have to live in student housing, you could pick who your roommates were (if married, then pick someplace cheap, maybe rundown and SMALL - rent it, probably). But pick a college that is in your state (cheaper), and one where there's a solid reformed church near it. Attend there, make your friends there. Being a college town, there will be at the church most likely other people your age. Do bible studies led from elders at that church. I promise if that's what you do, you will grow in your understanding of the Bible way more than if you made it your school work. Pick a degree, since you want to go on to graduate school, that will help you with graduate school.


If you are in Hawaii, and you don't like the few public universities there, then move now to the states where there's a decent public school near where there's a good church. Go to a local community college, and do what I said above. I'm pretty sure this will generally echo what others have said above, but I didn't read. If you know what denomination you are wanting to go into for ministry, then find a church that fits that preference with all the other things above. This way that church, and that denomination gets to know you for many years. That will also serve you better in the long run.

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## jenderson (Feb 26, 2019)

Or consider Classics (you'll learn Greek and Latin) or Philosophy (helps with systematics if you go to seminary). 



greenbaggins said:


> I will continue to echo the advice of T. David Gordon in his book _Why Johnny Can't Preach_. If you are as set on seminary education as you seem to be, get a degree in English, not Bible, for your undergraduate studies. Why? Because a good education in English will help you in the following ESSENTIAL areas: 1. analyzing a text (most guys enter seminary and they don't know what to do with a text at all); 2. grammar (this makes Hebrew and Greek MUCH more manageable); 3. rhetoric (you'll be set for sermon prep). Alongside this advice, make sure you have something else you can do that will provide for your family.

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