# Sport on the Lord's day



## Andrew David Short (Sep 30, 2018)

Is it alright if I ask, how folk feel about watching sports on the Lord's day with the TV on mute while listening to sermonaudio?

or is this a bit half hearted

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## Tom Hart (Sep 30, 2018)

First, what does your conscience say? Your question seems to me to express some hesitation.


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Sep 30, 2018)

I think one thing to consider with this is that by doing so, you are saying you support something that has become an idol in our nation on Sunday, and ultimately pulls people away from the church on the Lord's Day. As well, there are probably many employees involved in the game who would be in church if it weren't for their employers saying they have to work this day, so it's keeping them away from the church as well. For these practical reasons and others, I would say it's best to refrain. Good question though!


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## Reformed Covenanter (Sep 30, 2018)

As providence would have it, I have just posted something from William Twisse, moderator of the Westminster Assembly, which is relevant to this subject: William Twisse and the danger of playing football on the Sabbath.

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## Southern Presbyterian (Sep 30, 2018)

Matthew 6:24

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## deleteduser99 (Sep 30, 2018)

It’s inconsistent. We don’t only worship outwardly, but inwardly, and that means whatever takes us away from worshipping God in the heart with full affection and attention on that day should be put aside, so far as providence allows. What you are proposing is an unnecessary divided priority for the day.


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## OPC'n (Sep 30, 2018)

You can't evaluate two things at one time. You can't evaluate what you're hearing and evaluate what you're seeing at the same exact time. You might be able to go from one subject (football) to another subject (the sermon) quickly which seems that you are evaluating two things at one time but you can't. Let's pretend that you can though. God said not fill your day with the things of your own interest unless that interest is of the things of him. The Sabbath belongs to God and is for his people. Record the football game and watch it Monday.


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## Edward (Sep 30, 2018)

Andrew David Short said:


> watching sports on the Lord's day with the TV on mute



Could you supply a bit more information? Specifically, how do you get the video signal in question? Over the air, cable, internet, something else?

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## A.Joseph (Sep 30, 2018)

I think sports (pro, college) is an idol on any day, with the Lord's Day the most objectionable use of the time spent, but I still struggle with these things and the influence it has on me & my family


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## Reformed Covenanter (Sep 30, 2018)

Andrew David Short said:


> Is it alright if I ask, how folk feel about watching sports on the Lord's day with the TV on mute while listening to sermonaudio?
> 
> or is this a bit half hearted



Outside of the time taken up by your ordinary work/family duties, God has given you six days of the week for such recreations. God only demands that you devote one day entirely to the things that concern him, excepting works of necessity and mercy. I think that we can all agree that God is being perfectly reasonable in his requirements of us. He does not demand that we spend all our time in holy things, but only one day a week.

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## timfost (Sep 30, 2018)

I don't want to make a list of things that are permissible and forbidden on Sunday. Lists can often give the impression that one has kept or not kept the day holy (this is not a blanket statement against lists, BTW). Rather ask yourself, "how is this day different from others?" If you make you and your family sit around and read the Bible all day and listen to sermons, you may be missing out on many of the joys of the Lord's Day. In clearing my work schedule, I am able to spend more time with my children. This can translate to time outside with them, taking a walk, reading the Bible with them, etc. I often use Sunday to go to my widowed neighbor's house and help her with some house work that she is not able to do herself, nor can she afford to pay someone to do. Having a household of eight and a relatively small kitchen, leaving dishes go until the next day is not a feasible option. Since the bulk of this work customarily falls on my wife, I try to pick up some of that work on Sunday so she can rest from her usual work. We often spend time with other believers as well with a shared meal or something similar.

Yes, I spend more time in the Word and prayer as well as reading on Sunday, but the day being set aside from customary work does practically allow for the work of mercy in a different way than other days.


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## VictorBravo (Sep 30, 2018)

Andrew David Short said:


> or is this a bit half hearted



Yes, I'd say so. And double-minded, too.

Funny thing about sin is that even if you cut it in half, or quarters, it doesn't go away.

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## brendanchatt (Sep 30, 2018)

I think TV requires people to broadcast it or even perform if live, so you’re making people work. I abstain from recreation on the Lord’s day too, which watching a sports program would be to me. That’s two things. Let’s say it’s DVRed or whatever, it would still be the latter. I don’t how DVR works so I’m assuming you’re not causing others to work by watching a recording.

Thank you for your question. It is very honestly worded.


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## bookslover (Sep 30, 2018)

OPC'n said:


> You can't evaluate two things at one time. You can't evaluate what you're hearing and evaluate what you're seeing at the same exact time. You might be able to go from one subject (football) to another subject (the sermon) quickly which seems that you are evaluating two things at one time but you can't. Let's pretend that you can though. God said not fill your day with the things of your own interest unless that interest is of the things of him. The Sabbath belongs to God and is for his people. Record the football game and watch it Monday.



So, the next question would be: can a person, in good conscience, watch a recorded football game on Monday knowing that the game had been played on the Lord's Day? Would that not also be a violation?

In other words: just how deep into the weeds are to go in applying the principles of the Lord's Day?


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## Ben Zartman (Oct 1, 2018)

bookslover said:


> So, the next question would be: can a person, in good conscience, watch a recorded football game on Monday knowing that the game had been played on the Lord's Day? Would that not also be a violation?
> 
> In other words: just how deep into the weeds are to go in applying the principles of the Lord's Day?


The UPS/FedEx/USP package you receive on Monday was probably in transit on the Lord's Day. The apples you buy on Monday at the grocery store were probably stocked by a worker the day before.
Sadly, in our modern world's abandonment of the 4th Commandment, we can touch, taste or handle almost nothing that someone has not broken the Sabbath for (Were they on set on the Lord's Day ten years ago making that movie your children enjoy so much?). If we were to scruple to the extremes of not buying groceries potentially stocked or transported on the Lord's Day, or receiving mail carried that day by someone, we'd have to go and form an isolated self-governing community that didn't depend on the outside world for anything.
I think we do better to not sweat what we can't control, to carefully control what we can (no broadcast TV or radio on Sundays, no shopping, etc.), and to let God sort out the sinners who break His day.

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## De Jager (Oct 1, 2018)

How far do we take things?

My church uses electric lights. This means that people have to be working at the nuclear power plant to make sure things are running smoothly. If we just removed those silly lights, we wouldn't contribute to those people working on the sabbath. Surely we could manage without electric lights...I mean, the Amish people still have church every Sunday without them, why can't we?

In fact, every time I flush the toilet on Sunday, it contributes in a small way to the power load required by the wastewater treatment plant (if I live in a town), which requires staff to monitor it, as well as power (to work at the power plant). So I can't even really go to the bathroom on Sunday without contributing to someone working on the sabbath.


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## Smeagol (Oct 1, 2018)

De Jager said:


> How far do we take things?
> 
> My church uses electric lights. This means that people have to be working at the nuclear power plant to make sure things are running smoothly. If we just removed those silly lights, we wouldn't contribute to those people working on the sabbath. Surely we could manage without electric lights...I mean, the Amish people still have church every Sunday without them, why can't we?
> 
> In fact, every time I flush the toilet on Sunday, it contributes in a small way to the power load required by the wastewater treatment plant (if I live in a town), which requires staff to monitor it, as well as power (to work at the power plant). So I can't even really go to the bathroom on Sunday without contributing to someone working on the sabbath.



In my book we take it as far as the Scriptures (ultimately), Westminster Confession (or LBC) and relevant BCOs take it , which advocate that the WHOLE day be taken up in acts of corporate, family, and private worship as well as acts of mercy a necessity.

*Watching NFL football on the Lord's Day simply does not fit into that definition .....period.*

Why is no one Justifying breaking any the other 9 commandments so long as we are listening to "Sermon Audio" while we do it? Well because that is silly...but as always the 4th commandment gets attacked the most.....Can i commit theft so long as I listen to sermon audio while I do it?......NO WAY.

Ben Zartman has some good thoughts above on taking the 4th commandment too far. I find that those who point out extreme supposed "applications" of the command are in reality " 9 commandmenters" in doctrine anyway.

Specifically to both of your examples (i know you don't actually believe they break the sabbath) are going beyond the intent of the commandment. Power is being supplied to your house by the power plants regardless if you flip a light switch or not. Going to the bathroom is a necessity (and it is merciful to others...haha). Keep it simple and stick with the basic definition of trying to use the whole day for worshipping our Lord (with occasional bathroom breaks). That rule has helped me through so many of my Lord's Day decisions for my own Family. I hope that helps.


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## NaphtaliPress (Oct 1, 2018)

_*Moderating. *_Let's not let this thread bog down in 'I guess we can't have a modern society' argument. This has been broached and answered in, I suspect, numerous prior threads. Stick to the OP. On the other, do a search or, _if absolutely must_, start a new thread.

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## Romans922 (Oct 1, 2018)

Andrew David Short said:


> Is it alright if I ask, how folk feel about watching sports on the Lord's day with the TV on mute while listening to sermonaudio?



If you do all you are privileged to do in all that God commands us to do on the Sabbath, then you would find that you have absolutely no time to do anything else. 

God commands us in public worship, family worship, private worship, acts of physical mercy, spiritual mercy, fellowship with the saints, etc.

In other words, the OP is starting with the wrong question. You are attempting to determine practice based on yourself instead of based on doctrine. You must study what God commands to do on the Sabbath first.

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## Dachaser (Oct 1, 2018)

De Jager said:


> How far do we take things?
> 
> My church uses electric lights. This means that people have to be working at the nuclear power plant to make sure things are running smoothly. If we just removed those silly lights, we wouldn't contribute to those people working on the sabbath. Surely we could manage without electric lights...I mean, the Amish people still have church every Sunday without them, why can't we?
> 
> In fact, every time I flush the toilet on Sunday, it contributes in a small way to the power load required by the wastewater treatment plant (if I live in a town), which requires staff to monitor it, as well as power (to work at the power plant). So I can't even really go to the bathroom on Sunday without contributing to someone working on the sabbath.


I want to say up front that I do see upholding the Lord's day as being Sunday, and do see it as the time to fellowship with God and His people on that day. But when does observing the Day unto Him move from the spirit of the law to the letter of the law? As we know of many sincere Christians who do play football and baseball as professionals on Sunday.


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## De Jager (Oct 1, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> I want to say up front that I do see upholding the Lord's day as being Sunday, and do see it as the time to fellowship with God and His people on that day. But when does observing the Day unto Him move from the spirit of the law to the letter of the law? As we know of many sincere Christians who do play football and baseball as professionals on Sunday.



The command pretty specifically says that we should rest from our normal labours on the sabbath day. Therefore, I think we should conclude that those Christians are misguided.

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## VictorBravo (Oct 1, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> But when does observing the Day unto Him move from the spirit of the law to the letter of the law?



David, here the "spirit" is clearly expressed by the "letter."

As Izzak pointed out, one might have a sincere thought and yet be sincerely wrong. 

Sometimes Christians are caught in a bind as to working on the Sabbath. It is regrettable but sometimes necessary, but that doesn't mean they should come up with a revision of a plainly worded commandment.

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## NaphtaliPress (Oct 1, 2018)

Contrary to popular belief (and misbelief in the abiding nature of the fourth commandment), the confessional view (Puritan Sabbatarianism) is not legalistic. I'm sure there were probably legalists who adhered to the teaching and mere outward conformity but the teaching itself is not. 

“14. Lastly, though no man can perfectly keep this commandment, either in thought, word or deed, no more than he can any other; yet this is that perfection that we must aim at; and wherein, if we fail, we must repent us, and crave pardon for Christ’s sake. For as the whole law is our schoolmaster to lead us to Christ (Gal 3:24); so is every particular commandment, and namely this of the Sabbath. And therefore we are not to measure the length and breadth of it by the over-scant rule of our own inability, but by the perfect reed of the Temple (Ezk 40:3); that is, by the absolute righteousness of God himself, which only can give us the full measure of it.”​
_Sabbathum Veteris Et Novi Testamenti: or The True Doctrine of the Sabbath _by Nicholas Bownd. A Critical Edition with Introduction and Analysis (Naphtali Press and Reformation Heritage Books), p. 9.

This is currently on cheap at RHB for $14 plus s/h. I would encourage David and any others who have misgivings about the WCF's and 1689 LBCF's teaching on this to get this work. It's pastoral and while heavy with citations is not really a hard read, surprising given the age and that this was initially a late Elizabethan work. See RHB here. https://www.heritagebooks.org/produ...bbathum-veteris-et-novi-testamenti-bownd.html

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## Smeagol (Oct 1, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> But when does observing the Day unto Him move from the spirit of the law to the letter of the law? As we know of many sincere Christians who do play football and baseball as professionals on Sunday.


David,

Evidence that sincere Christians routinely break the Law of God does not abrogate what God has clearly commanded. How does playing paid sports on the Lord's Day fare with your own confession (LBC)?

Being a "sincere" Christian is not a valid justification for breaking the 4th commandment. It is disheartening to know that many in the pro-sports world miss the blessings God has intended in observing the Lord's Day for a mere sport.


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## Dachaser (Oct 1, 2018)

Grant Jones said:


> David,
> 
> Evidence that sincere Christians routinely break the Law of God does not abrogate what God has clearly commanded. How does playing paid sports on the Lord's Day fare with your own confession (LBC)?
> 
> Being a "sincere" Christian is not a valid justification for breaking the 4th commandment. It is disheartening to know that many in the pro-sports world miss the blessings God has intended in observing the Lord's Day for a mere sport.


I agree with the 1689 Confession on this, but would not they be able to bring glory to God by doing their profession so as onto the Lord Himself? 1 Corinthians 10:31


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## Smeagol (Oct 1, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> I agree with the 1689 Confession on this, but would not they be able to bring glory to God by doing their profession so as onto the Lord Himself? 1 Corinthians 10:31


My current thinking (I could be wrong), is to say "No".That is basically saying "Break the 4th Commandment by unnecessarily working on the Lord's Day" to the Glory of God. That does not really make sense.

So no, I think that would be a misuse of that verse.

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## Ben Zartman (Oct 1, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> I agree with the 1689 Confession on this, but would not they be able to bring glory to God by doing their profession so as onto the Lord Himself? 1 Corinthians 10:31


You cannot sin "Unto the glory of God." Can a hooker do her job for God's glory? Clearly not. Can a sculptor of idols make his images for God's glory? That would be ridiculous. So also a worker of unnecessary entertainments cannot break the Sabbath for God's glory.

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## Andrew David Short (Oct 1, 2018)

A very big thank you to everybody who answered me and gave me food for thought and recognised my honesty

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## De Jager (Oct 1, 2018)

I am feeling rather convicted about how I can best spend the Lord's day.

My girlfriend lives about 2 hours away and often times we see each other on weekends. I drive there on Friday or vice versa...and whoever is visiting leaves for home Sunday evening, preferably after the worship service.

Is there a scripture/proof that would give me guidance on whether that is an OK use of the Lord's day? It's important for us to be introduced to people in our churches so we can get to know each other better.

Can I sanctify my hours driving? I.e. spending time listening to sermons, or in prayer (which I often do anyways).

I have to be perfectly honest, the idea of being cooped up in my empty house (I am single) alone all day does not particularly excite me. I like reading my Bible and praying and know that these should take up more of my time on the Lord's day but is there not room for going for a walk? Visiting family? Or am I missing the mark here?

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## Smeagol (Oct 1, 2018)

De Jager said:


> I am feeling rather convicted about how I can best spend the Lord's day.
> 
> My girlfriend lives about 2 hours away and often times we see each other on weekends. I drive there on Friday or vice versa...and whoever is visiting leaves for home Sunday evening, preferably after the worship service.
> 
> ...


Dear Brother,

Those ideas sound like much better options than watching sports. I think you are on the right track. Keep studying and keep striving to sanctify the Day. None of us have it figured out perfectly.


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## A.Joseph (Oct 1, 2018)

Perfect timing...
https://reformedforum.org/ctc561/


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## Romans922 (Oct 1, 2018)

De Jager said:


> I am feeling rather convicted about how I can best spend the Lord's day.
> 
> My girlfriend lives about 2 hours away and often times we see each other on weekends. I drive there on Friday or vice versa...and whoever is visiting leaves for home Sunday evening, preferably after the worship service.
> 
> ...



Brother, you are starting in the wrong place...you are asking the wrong questions. 

You have to start with doctrine first. Upon searching the whole of the Scriptures on this subject you will find that all your questions are answered. However, asking us if it is good or not is wrongheaded. 

Go and listen to these sermons on the subject, and all your questions will be answered (I suspect): 


The Rest Of The Sabbath
What The Sabbath Does
Sabbath: A Day for Mercy
Sabbath Ways, Works, And Words 
Sabbath: From the Beginning
How Jesus Kept The Sabbath
The First Day Sabbath
How The Church Keeps Sabbath


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## De Jager (Oct 1, 2018)

Romans922 said:


> Brother, you are starting in the wrong place...you are asking the wrong questions.
> 
> You have to start with doctrine first. Upon searching the whole of the Scriptures on this subject you will find that all your questions are answered. However, asking us if it is good or not is wrongheaded.
> 
> ...



Thank you sir, I appreciate your advice.

Turns out this "knowing your doctrine" thing is actually a lot of work.

Tough when you have a sinful tendency towards sloth.

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## NaphtaliPress (Oct 1, 2018)

The program was not helpful to the question of this thread because the book author interviewed does not believe in a list of do's and don'ts and doesn't really lay out all his answers apparently given in his book. So A+ on trying to sell a book I guess; but I suspect if you hold a puritan view the warning signs are clear enough this book doesn't go that direction. Some modern extreme 2 kingdoms stuff briefly in rejecting blue laws. I did not hear the author repudiate or explain his "it's not a sin to watch the super bowl" answer he gave in his license exam decades ago that he used as an example and they never got to the question of that and of recreations covered at the end of the book. No hardball questions; maybe that is not what RF is about; I've heard maybe 4 podcasts of theirs. The question of work was addressed briefly and sounded practical (if you are in a work not of necessity, maybe you should plan an exit to another job that doesn't keep you from public worship). @Alan D. Strange 's name was dropped on adopting intent by the OPC, but the program did not really ever talk about what that was about. There were several intimations that there was a lot of disagreement in the OPC on the doctrine of the Sabbath. So maybe that is used to justify the differences with the original intent or what that is about? 


A.Joseph said:


> Perfect timing...
> https://reformedforum.org/ctc561/


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## A.Joseph (Oct 1, 2018)

NaphtaliPress said:


> The program was not helpful to the question of this thread because the book author interviewed does not believe in a list of do's and don'ts and doesn't really lay out all his answers apparently given in his book. So A+ on trying to sell a book I guess; but I suspect if you hold a puritan view the warning signs are clear enough this book doesn't go that direction. Some modern extreme 2 kingdoms stuff briefly in rejecting blue laws. I did not hear the author repudiate or explain his "it's not a sin to watch the super bowl" answer he gave in his license exam decades ago that he used as an example and they never got to the question of that and of recreations covered at the end of the book. No hardball questions; maybe that is not what RF is about; I've heard maybe 4 podcasts of theirs. The question of work was addressed briefly and sounded practical (if you are in a work not of necessity, maybe you should plan an exit to another job that doesn't keep you from public worship). @Alan D. Strange 's name was dropped on adopting intent by the OPC, but the program did not really ever talk about what that was about. There were several intimations that there was a lot of disagreement in the OPC on the doctrine of the Sabbath and maybe that is used to justify the differences with the original intent.


Thanks, I only listened to the first ten minutes thus far. I would probably agree with your concerns...


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## NaphtaliPress (Oct 1, 2018)

A.Joseph said:


> Thanks, I only listened to the first ten minutes thus far. I would probably agree with your concerns...


It is a very slow moving interview and seemed like a very long hour.

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## A.Joseph (Oct 2, 2018)

I'm not as strict a Sabbatarian as I used to be but I believe I am a more faithful one. I believe I use to place duty over desire. I now see it as less my duty (and formerly in more than a few instances drudgery) and more my delight...The problem is not everyone in my household views the day as such (a duty or a desire), which conflicts me

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## Reformed Covenanter (Oct 14, 2018)

Here is another post by William Twisse on the benefit of abstaining from recreation on the Sabbath, which is very relevant to the OP.

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