# Where to buy a Genevan Robe?



## Romans922

Just for future reference, where would you buy a Genevan robe from? And I heard they have robes made out of cotton now, where do you find those?


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## ReformationArt

I purchased my robe last year from Murphy Robes.


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## etexas

Romans922 said:


> Just for future reference, where would you buy a Genevan robe from? And I heard they have robes made out of cotton now, where do you find those?


Get me some yarn, I,ll knit ya one!


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## Davidius

I wish my teaching elder would get one.


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## Poimen

Andrew: When you and your spouse finally get that co-pastor position you always wanted, here is what your wife will look on Sunday.


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## ReformationArt

Thanks for that Dan! Actually, ironically my current title is co-pastor, since the session opted not to use the "associate" title ;-).


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## dannyhyde

Romans922 said:


> Just for future reference, where would you buy a Genevan robe from? And I heard they have robes made out of cotton now, where do you find those?



Murphy is the best and simplest way to get a "Genevan" robe, which, by the way, is actually the historic Luther robe.


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## Simply_Nikki

Poimen said:


> Andrew: When you and your spouse finally get that co-pastor position you always wanted, here is what your wife will look on Sunday.


 
 ya'll are silly


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## Romans922

Poimen said:


> Andrew: When you and your spouse finally get that co-pastor position you always wanted, here is what your wife will look on Sunday.








Um, NEVEr, my wife will be in the pew just like all the other women, and she will serve the church by her gifts just like all the other women.


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## Guido's Brother

I just ordered mine from Alpha Robe Sales, which distributes for Murphy. I had tried to order directly from Murphy, but being a largish sort of fellow, they wouldn't allow it. Alpha Robe Sales was no problem. I had looked at Harcourt in Toronto, but they were more than twice as expensive as Alpha/Murphy. The only problem with Alpha is that they don't ship to Canada; but I just live minutes from the border and I have family just over the line.


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## Don Kistler

I see these regularly on E-bay under "clergy robes."


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## Calvibaptist

Guido's Brother said:


> I just ordered mine from Alpha Robe Sales, which distributes for Murphy. I had tried to order directly from Murphy, but being a largish sort of fellow, they wouldn't allow it. Alpha Robe Sales was no problem. I had looked at Harcourt in Toronto, but they were more than twice as expensive as Alpha/Murphy. The only problem with Alpha is that they don't ship to Canada; but I just live minutes from the border and I have family just over the line.



Isn't it illegal to transport Genevan Robes across the American-Canadian border?


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## Guido's Brother

Calvibaptist said:


> Isn't it illegal to transport Genevan Robes across the American-Canadian border?



Only if you have one that looks like the fellow on the left (the guy on the right is okay):


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## Calvibaptist

Guido's Brother said:


> Calvibaptist said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't it illegal to transport Genevan Robes across the American-Canadian border?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only if you have one that looks like the fellow on the left (the guy on the right is okay):
Click to expand...


Is the one on the left the special Servetus' Revenge Robe?


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## Reformed Covenanter

Poimen said:


> Andrew: When you and your spouse finally get that co-pastor position you always wanted, here is what your wife will look on Sunday.




 Very funny.


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## Reformed Covenanter

Romans922 said:


> Just for future reference, where would you buy a Genevan robe from? And I heard they have robes made out of cotton now, where do you find those?




Are Geneva Robes consistent with the regulative principle?


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## Bygracealone

I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other, but I believe this would fall under adiaphora. I don't think there is a positive warrant from Scripture with regard to what a minister ought to wear. Culturally, today the "clergy robe" seems to be a nice suit...


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## Reformed Covenanter

bygracealone said:


> I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other, but I believe this would fall under adiaphora. I don't think there is a positive warrant from Scripture with regard to what a minister ought to wear. Culturally, today the "clergy robe" seems to be a nice suit...



My opinion of ministerial robes is that since they are not prescribed in Scripture as divinely ordained clothing for worship or to distinguish certain ecclesiastical officers, then they violate the RPW.


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## dannyhyde

Daniel Ritchie said:


> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just for future reference, where would you buy a Genevan robe from? And I heard they have robes made out of cotton now, where do you find those?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are Geneva Robes consistent with the regulative principle?
Click to expand...


Hi Daniel,

I've been asked this question personally several times, but i have to admit, I've never understood the point the person was trying to make.

Since the RPW is about the elements of worship - Word, sacraments, and prayer - I don't see how a minister's dress plays into that as long as his dress does not violate the clear teaching of Scripture; hence, sacerdotal vestments are out because Christ has abolished the Aaronic priesthood.

That being said, what a minister wears is a matter of wisdom. Is it wise to dress as a businessman, or is it wisest to dress in a way that sets the minister apart for his ministry to the people since the ministerial office is one in which the man is set apart from the people for the benefit of the people?

This is how I've always addresses the issue, or else you end up looking in vain for a proof text for the people's clothing, whether a pulpit is biblical (after all, the priests stood on top of wooden structures), should we use song books (the people had the songs memorized, at best, each synagogue had a copy of the Word), etc.


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## Reformed Covenanter

dannyhyde said:


> Daniel Ritchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just for future reference, where would you buy a Genevan robe from? And I heard they have robes made out of cotton now, where do you find those?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are Geneva Robes consistent with the regulative principle?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hi Daniel,
> 
> I've been asked this question personally several times, but i have to admit, I've never understood the point the person was trying to make.
> 
> Since the RPW is about the elements of worship - Word, sacraments, and prayer - I don't see how a minister's dress plays into that as long as his dress does not violate the clear teaching of Scripture; hence, sacerdotal vestments are out because Christ has abolished the Aaronic priesthood.
> 
> That being said, what a minister wears is a matter of wisdom. Is it wise to dress as a businessman, or is it wisest to dress in a way that sets the minister apart for his ministry to the people since the ministerial office is one in which the man is set apart from the people for the benefit of the people?
> 
> This is how I've always addresses the issue, or else you end up looking in vain for a proof text for the people's clothing, whether a pulpit is biblical (after all, the priests stood on top of wooden structures), should we use song books (the people had the songs memorized, at best, each synagogue had a copy of the Word), etc.
Click to expand...


Thanks for your response Danny.

First of all, although I am against a distinct ministerial dress, I concede that it is only a very minor point. I suppose the crux of the matter is whether or not clerical garments fall under the category of circumstances.

One denomination in Scotland - the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland - actually forces ministers to wear clerical collars _every_ time they are seen out in public. So, if you wanted to go out for a jog, you would have to wear a collar!!


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## ReformationArt

In addition I believe it helps to minimize distractions. Since the minister wears the same black robe each Lord's day, there aren't comments regarding his suit, shirt, etc. This is a minor point, but in my experience a valid one.

Ministerial garb is neither prescribed nor prohibited in Scripture. However, in this part of the country, the prevailing model is that of the pastor as the CEO, with a business suit on. I am not a business man in my office. I think in my context, the robe helps to make that distinction.


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## Bygracealone

Indeed, most laypeople today expect their pastors to step into the pulpit wearing a suit. It would be a really big deal if a minister were to come dressed in anything else. So, in effect, most churches hold to some form of ministerial attire, explicitly stated or not... We have no positive warrant from Scripture to wear a suit or to wear something more casual like you might see in some of the Calvary Chapels on the West Coast (shorts, T-shirt, and flip flops...). 

I personally don't see anything wrong with a minister wearing a robe for the purpose of removing any distractions regarding his attire and perhaps to distinguish his office while he is ministering to the sheep. After all, during the worship service, he is set apart as Christ's mouthpiece (so to speak); he's speaking God's message to His people; he has a particular role distinct from everyone else in the service. So, in my humble opinion, there's nothing wrong with distinguishing the office by using the robe during the worship service (the robe to be taken off right after the benediction, since this is the last word of the service that the Minister speaks from God to the people). I don't see any point, however, in having to wear clerical collars in everyday life. 

Also, I think a minister ought to be very careful in how he handles this subject. He ought to work through it with the session and check the pulse of the congregation as a whole. If this is something that will cause trouble in the congregation, it's better to forget it altogether. This is hardly something worth stirring up the flock over...

Clothed in the righteous robe of Christ Jesus,


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## Reformed Covenanter

So should the elders and deacons have special clothes as well?


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## raekwon

This has turned into a pretty interesting discussion. I'm honestly something of an outsider and an alien when it comes to the whole culture that seems to surround many presbyterian and reformed churches, so bear with my comments.

So . . . I understand that one purpose of a clerical robe is to take away what could be the "distraction" of whatever the preacher could otherwise be wearing. I also understand that another purpose is to visibly set him apart from the congregation by virtue of his office, calling, and function. (The same could be said in some churches about why their pastors wear suits.)

All well and good. I just don't know that those ends are necessarily accomplished by the means of a robe any longer (for the most part). For instance, the whole "setting apart" aspect . . . I believe that this is accomplished by the mere fact that the pastor is before the people, offering prayers for the people, and preaching the Word to them authoritatively. Now, there are certainly some contexts where a robs would still be helpful (for instance, in a church like Coral Ridge, where most folks are retirees or at least "older" and used to such things). In some other contexts, though, a clerical robe does very little (or nothing at all) to help. The same could easily be said of the goal of removing distractions due to the what the preacher could otherwise be wearing. (Some could find a suit or a robe - even one as simple as the Geneva - a distraction in itself.)

It would seem to me that context and wisdom should help to determine what a minister is to wear during corporate worship. In some churches, context and wisdom say "wear a robe". In some, they say "wear a suit". In others, they say "wear khakis and a polo". In still others, they say "wear jeans and an untucked button-down shirt". In any of those cases, when the Word is brought with humility and with power, God's spirit will work without heed of what his mouthpiece happens to be wearing.


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## ReformationArt

Greetings Raekwon,

Yes, this is true. I agree that context is important in making these decisions, which will vary based on culture, congregation, etc. Wisdom is needed with this and all other circumstances of worship, decided on by the elders.

Bygracealone, you said, "We have no positive warrant from Scripture to wear a suit or to wear something more casual like you might see in some of the Calvary Chapels on the West Coast (shorts, T-shirt, and flip flops...)."

I do believe there is biblical warrant against coming before the Lord in a manner lacking reverence and awe. When we come together to worship, we come into the presence of the king, not to a party on the beach. I'm not prepared to begin making lists regarding dress codes for worship, however, the guidelines include things like reverence, awe, respect, humility, honor, etc.

Grace and Peace,


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## No Longer A Libertine

Do you want one in maroon or black? I have graduation gown from high school and college that looks the part.


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## raekwon

Just read a great statement in Chapell's _Christ-Centered Preaching_ . . .


> The goal is not to dress for success or to wear camel-hair tunics but _to have our clothes and personal appearance be non-issues in our ministries._ We have more important matters for people to consider. Congregations will better focus on the more vital issues when we care enough about the people and the gospel to dress so that Christ, not our clothing, preoccupies their thought.


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## DMcFadden

bygracealone said:


> Indeed, most laypeople today expect their pastors to step into the pulpit wearing a suit. It would be a really big deal if a minister were to come dressed in anything else. So, in effect, most churches hold to some form of ministerial attire, explicitly stated or not... We have no positive warrant from Scripture to wear a suit or to wear something more casual like you might see in some of the Calvary Chapels on the West Coast (shorts, T-shirt, and flip flops...).



What do you mean "Calvary Chapels"??? Rick "McSaddleback" Warren wears (or used to???) an untucked Hawaiian shirt as he leads his flock towards the purpose driven life.


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## No Longer A Libertine

DMcFadden said:


> bygracealone said:
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, most laypeople today expect their pastors to step into the pulpit wearing a suit. It would be a really big deal if a minister were to come dressed in anything else. So, in effect, most churches hold to some form of ministerial attire, explicitly stated or not... We have no positive warrant from Scripture to wear a suit or to wear something more casual like you might see in some of the Calvary Chapels on the West Coast (shorts, T-shirt, and flip flops...).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean "Calvary Chapels"??? Rick "McSaddleback" Warren wears (or used to???) an untucked Hawaiian shirt as he leads his flock towards the purpose driven life.
Click to expand...

How dare you mock the purpose driven garb of the Emergent Pope!


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## raekwon

Rick Warren is one of the furthest things from "Emergent" than I can think of.


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## Romans922

What about the subject of cotton robes, I thought most of these robes are of some type of heavy material. One of my professors was talking to me about how he just received a cotton robe and was talking about how it is soooo much better than the older type because it wasn't as hot.


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## No Longer A Libertine

raekwon said:


> Rick Warren is one of the furthest things from "Emergent" than I can think of.


I disagree, his circus tent has a side show just for them when you pick your own flavor he has it at the buffet table.


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## DMcFadden

No Longer A Libertine said:


> raekwon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rick Warren is one of the furthest things from "Emergent" than I can think of.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree, his circus tent has a side show just for them when you pick your own flavor he has it at the buffet table.
Click to expand...


Huh? I got lost in the metaphors (i.e., is it a circus tent or a buffet table?). Since I graduated from seminary 30 years ago yesterday, my up-to-date knowledge of these new fangled trends is a little shaky. But, aren't the "emergent" folk kindof the counter-cultural opposite of the mega-church crowd? I thought that McLaren and gang spend their time sitting around on stools and sofas, denying the law of non-contradiction, making jokes about the mega churches while smoking cigarettes and uttering paradoxical/dialetical/ridiculous pontifications, and kicking their pet dog, W.


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## No Longer A Libertine

DMcFadden said:


> No Longer A Libertine said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> raekwon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rick Warren is one of the furthest things from "Emergent" than I can think of.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree, his circus tent has a side show just for them when you pick your own flavor he has it at the buffet table.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Huh? I got lost in the metaphors (i.e., is it a circus tent or a buffet table?). Since I graduated from seminary 30 years ago yesterday, my up-to-date knowledge of these new fangled trends is a little shaky. But, aren't the "emergent" folk kindof the counter-cultural opposite of the mega-church crowd? I thought that McLaren and gang spend their time sitting around on stools and sofas, denying the law of non-contradiction, making jokes about the mega churches while smoking cigarettes and uttering paradoxical/dialetical/ridiculous pontifications, and kicking their pet dog, W.
Click to expand...

Yet half of Emergent churches are mega church big and Warren includes an emergent styled worship service under his big top circus tent that includes worship of every shape and flavor.


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## Bygracealone

ReformationArt said:


> Greetings Raekwon,
> 
> Yes, this is true. I agree that context is important in making these decisions, which will vary based on culture, congregation, etc. Wisdom is needed with this and all other circumstances of worship, decided on by the elders.
> 
> Bygracealone, you said, "We have no positive warrant from Scripture to wear a suit or to wear something more casual like you might see in some of the Calvary Chapels on the West Coast (shorts, T-shirt, and flip flops...)."
> 
> I do believe there is biblical warrant against coming before the Lord in a manner lacking reverence and awe. When we come together to worship, we come into the presence of the king, not to a party on the beach. I'm not prepared to begin making lists regarding dress codes for worship, however, the guidelines include things like reverence, awe, respect, humility, honor, etc.
> 
> Grace and Peace,



Andrew, I definitely agree with you with regard to us being duty bound to come into the presence of our King and the host of heaven with reverence and awe (how's that for a title for a book ). That said, there will likely be some disagreement as to exactly what proper attire should be; there's a subjective aspect to it. Some would say a full suit is necessary; others might say a nice dress shirt and slacks. At the end of the day, we can't turn to a passage of Scripture that will give us a clear answer as to what attire is most Biblical. 

Now, I usually steer very clear from turning to the "culture" concerning Biblical matters. However, I think it may play a role in this area. In the past, I've told my congregation to consider how they might dress if they were going to be in the company of somebody important; like the president or royalty or something like this. Most would have some sense as to what to wear in that situation. If we show such respect for mere men, how much more ought we to show respect for our Creator and Redeemer--the King of kings and Lord of lords? Again, that's going to be a bit different from culture to culture... Sadly, many people don't give much thought to this aspect of worship.


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## KMK

It is in threads like these that I miss our missionary brother in Indonesia. He would have some great comments!

Does anyone have any info about him they could PM me?


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## ReformationArt

Steve, I agree completely. For instance in the jungles of South America, the culture wouldn't dictate the same style of dress for coming before royalty as it would in America. It is all context driven, which is difficulty since our own American context is a moving target as we are faced with numerous cultures and subcultures. The outward dress is only a symptom of the heart, but not a hard and fast barometer. So, you can have those who are worshipping with true reverence and awe, and yet dressed in what we might deem a "less than appropriate" manner, while the brother in the suit is only going through the motions, and is not offering true worship.

I am very happy to not have to buy suits anymore, now that I wear a Genevan gown/robe. Frankly, I don't have the money to purchase expensive suits. The ones I have I was fortunate to buy at an estate sale while in seminary. A good friend Chris G. (now a URC minister) and I would also hit the Goodwill and Amvets in Escondido on a regular basis ;-). I've always been one for a bargain, even though I have no Dutch blood in my veins (although I did graduate from Dordt College and lived in Amsterdam for 6 months).


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## Guido's Brother

I spent the first five years of my ministry as a missionary to a small group of Native Americans. My wife and I were talking about how my ministry among them might have been affected by my wearing a Geneva Gown. We discussed it and agreed that, given their Roman Catholic background, it probably would have enhanced my ministry. With the thought that one should always wear his best to church, I continued to wear "business attire" (not usually a suit, but at least a shirt and tie) in my missionary preaching. But this was not without its problems, especially because the people had been shafted so many times by white guys in suits. I think a Geneva Gown would have been very appropriate in this missionary situation.


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## Stephen

Has anyone seen the white outfit that Benny Hinn wears at his healing crusades? It is quite impressive. Perhaps we could require that as the standard uniform for Presbyterian and Reformed ministers.


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## Stephen

Romans922 said:


> Just for future reference, where would you buy a Genevan robe from? And I heard they have robes made out of cotton now, where do you find those?



Brother, I think we got off track by our pontificating, but I would like to address your question. Cokesbury Bookstore is the largest outlet for pulpit robes. They have a store at 1060 East County Line Road in Jackson, Mississippi. I have a black geneva gown and recently purchased a nice medium blue wool robe from Cokesbury. They are a United Methodist bookstore but have the best selection and great customer service. Robes can be expensive but you can ask if they have any robes that they are discontinuing that they might discount. I purchased mine at 50% off the retail price. You will not find anything under $125. I am not aware of too many cotton robes on the market but you can ask them. They can order for you or help you with your selection. The robes that are cotton are usually the white albs that are typically worn by Roman priests or Lutheran ministers. The Geneva or John Wesley gown is probably what you want. I personally try to stay away from the polyester because I do not like the material. It feels like you are wearing plastic. The wool or wool blends wear the best and feel nice in all kinds of climate. As Jean Calvin and John Knox would say, good luck.


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## Stephen

raekwon said:


> Rick Warren is one of the furthest things from "Emergent" than I can think of.



He is also the furthest thing from evangelicalism I can think of.


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