# Help me make ORTHODOX cool



## BobVigneault (Apr 9, 2007)

I have a vision. There is a famine for the Word right now, no doubt. The true church has been getting smaller and less noticed. The church growth movement rules the terrain and is creating the Greatest SHOW On Earth.

Yet, I am encouraged. As I watch the youth (17 through 20-somethings) coming to the board with genuine hunger for doctrine my joy soars. I really do believe that God will raise up this generation to strengthen what remains. I believe it with all my heart.

Young people are tired of country club churches and they want the meat of doctrine and knowledge of God's perfections.

My city is just like yours. Tons of churches all trying to be American Idol. Our church is a little OPC church where the pastor still cathechizes the sixth graders. It's wonderful except that our sixth grade class is tiny.

I have such a burden for the youth of our city. I believe they want doctrine and our church is uniquely qualified to teach it.

So my vision is to put some ads and posters out, invitations to all the youth leaders in town to send their youth (and adults) to a weekly class on the essential doctrines of the faith. It wouldn't be so much to grow our church but to send these kids back to their own churches to demand their church be a CHURCH - To take advantage of the spark in these young people and fan it into a flame.

*Please, could somebody direct me to some resources for teaching reformed/systematic/biblical doctrine to lay people.* A nice package that would run 3 months perhaps. (12 lessons, like Sunday School) I've run this by the elders and they are interested to see what I can put together.

I'm looking for something like that Alpha Course only with sound doctrine.


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## larryjf (Apr 9, 2007)

I haven't used this but was thinking about getting it for small group lessons at our church...
What is Reformed Theology?


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## Scott (Apr 9, 2007)

Bob:

Not sure if you are looking for something directed at believers or unbelievers. You mentioned the Alpha Course, which is directed at unbelievers. A good, reformed alternative to that is Christianity Explored. The Banner of Truth wrote this good comparison of the two. 

Scott


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## BobVigneault (Apr 9, 2007)

I'm definitely looking for something directed toward believers. Thank you for your feedback.


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## Poimen (Apr 9, 2007)

How about the "Summary of Christian Doctrine" by Louis Berkhof? Available here for free:

http://www.mbrem.com/shorttakes/berk.htm

I am using it to teach my current catechism class (16 & 18 year olds) and I know a YP group that has used it (16+).


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## BobVigneault (Apr 9, 2007)

Great suggestion Pastor Kok. "Reformed" is not in the title and I'm real familiar with Berkhof. I bet I can buy the booklet cheap. Yeah, that's a good one.


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## tdowns (Apr 9, 2007)

*What is Reformed Theology*

I'm using that DVD series by Sproul, in my Sunday school class, and I love it.....it is sparking good conversations, etc....my plan was to use it with the H.C. to do basically what you want to do Bob, but, time might not allow me to get to H.C. 

Sounds like an awesome plan! Prayers are with you.


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## No Longer A Libertine (Apr 9, 2007)

This will make them see how cool Reformed people are, me and my former boss...and Martin Luther on an RUF shirt.


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## CalvinandHodges (Apr 9, 2007)

Hi:

Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress is full of sound Christian doctrine. I believe that C.H. Spurgeon once remarked about Bunyan, "Why this man is a walking Bible!"

If you want something very strong in theology, then:

Edward Fischer's, Marrow of Modern Divinity is a conversation between Antinomista (an antinomian), Nomista (a legalist), Neophytus (a new Believer), and Evangelista (a Reformed Preacher who sets all these errors straight). I think it is an excellent resource for teaching the Doctrines of the Bible from a Covenantal perspective.

You could also check out Banner of Truth's Puritan paperbacks, Guthrie's The Christian's Great Interest, or, Owen's Holy Spirit, or Brook's Precious Remedies Against Satan's Devices are all very good and updated for the modern reader.

God bless in your endeavour!

-CH


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## Dieter Schneider (Apr 9, 2007)

BobVigneault said:


> I have a vision. There is a famine for the Word right now, no doubt. The true church has been getting smaller and less noticed. The church growth movement rules the terrain and is creating the Greatest SHOW On Earth.
> 
> Yet, I am encouraged. As I watch the youth (17 through 20-somethings) coming to the board with genuine hunger for doctrine my joy soars. I really do believe that God will raise up this generation to strengthen what remains. I believe it with all my heart.
> 
> ...




May I suggest the 5 Points of Calvinism? For source materials - see my blog http://calvinismonline.blogspot.com/


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## BobVigneault (Apr 9, 2007)

Pilgrims Progress is a great resource but not systematic enough. 

The 5 points of Calvinism will be included but they will have to be masked quite a bit for obvious reasons.

Berkhof's summary is great but I am finding it's not as cheap and easy to find as I had hoped.

Great ideas everyone, thank you.


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## Redaimie (Apr 9, 2007)

This is probably more simple than what you are looking for but our kids are going through "Understanding the Faith".

http://www.wtsbooks.com/product-exec/product_id/107/nm/Understanding_the_Faith_A_Workbook_for_Communicants_Classes_and_Others


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## BobVigneault (Apr 9, 2007)

That looks pretty good Mary. We are using the similar book by Starr Meade with our kids.

I could just use a synthesis of the Confessions that we use here. That would probably work.


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## crhoades (Apr 9, 2007)

Why not start with Knowing God by Packer? I think the recent edition has questions at the end of the chapters.


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## larryjf (Apr 9, 2007)

crhoades said:


> Why not start with Knowing God by Packer? I think the recent edition has questions at the end of the chapters.



We just went through Knowing God in Sunday School, and it was quite a success.


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## No Longer A Libertine (Apr 10, 2007)

"The Christian Life" By Sinclair Ferguson or "Putting the Amazing Back in Grace" By Michael Horton are two that I like. 

"Instruments in the Hands of the Redeemer" is another excellent title to read and chew on.


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## BJClark (Apr 10, 2007)

Bob,

Something to consider when deciding where to hold these bible studies, is that many parents are not comfortable allowing their kids to go to 'other' churches for Bible studies, they are however, more comfortable allowing them to go to a friends or neighbors house to a bible study. For whatever reason it is makes them feel less threatened about what their kids will be learning.

My kids have friends whose parents will let them come to our home for a Friday Night Bible Study, but will not allow them to go to church with my kids on Sundays or any other day if it's anything to do with a Bible Study. 

So if you really want to reach these teens, open your home for that, if you have teens have them invite their friends from other churches over, if you don't have teens get the teens in your church involved to invite their friends over to your home for the Bible study. You can even order pizza and have some board or card games or something in order to have a fellowship of some sort afterwards...


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## caddy (Apr 10, 2007)

Bob

This will touch on one Segment of Reformed Theology.

Predestination:

http://christianstudy.homestead.com/files/classes/predestination/lesson1.htm

The Supremacy of God over History:

http://christianstudy.homestead.com/files/classes/predestination/lesson2.htm

The Supremacy of God in God's Heart:

http://christianstudy.homestead.com/files/classes/predestination/lesson3.htm

Our Part & God's Part in Conversion:

http://christianstudy.homestead.com/files/classes/predestination/lesson4.htm

Foreknowledge & Double Predestination:

http://christianstudy.homestead.com/files/classes/predestination/lesson5.htm

Trust God for Perseverance:

http://christianstudy.homestead.com/files/classes/predestination/lesson6.htm

Pray, Evangelize & Support Missions: 

http://christianstudy.homestead.com/files/classes/predestination/lesson7.htm

Live by Grace, not by Works

http://christianstudy.homestead.com/files/classes/predestination/lesson8.htm

Throw in a few illustrations and I'm good to go for the next couple of months with my H.S. Kids. Looking forward to some good discussions with them, most of which have not been exposed to the Doctrines of Grace!



















It's really NOT this difficult is it ! ?  









BobVigneault said:


> I'm definitely looking for something directed toward believers. Thank you for your feedback.


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## Theoretical (Apr 10, 2007)

BJClark said:


> Bob,
> 
> Something to consider when deciding where to hold these bible studies, is that many parents are not comfortable allowing their kids to go to 'other' churches for Bible studies, they are however, more comfortable allowing them to go to a friends or neighbors house to a bible study. For whatever reason it is makes them feel less threatened about what their kids will be learning.
> 
> ...


 I know that would have been the reaction of my parents. Opening your home is the much better option, since the parents won't feel as "threatened" in some sense.


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## BobVigneault (Apr 10, 2007)

That's a good point Bobbi and Scott. Thank you.

Thank you Steven for those resources. I'll do some data mining there. Love the cartoons as well.


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## caddy (Apr 10, 2007)

of course you could always appeal to the BibleDudes!

http://bibledudes.com/


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## Scott Shahan (Apr 10, 2007)

crhoades said:


> Why not start with Knowing God by Packer? I think the recent edition has questions at the end of the chapters.





 This is what we do!


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## Poimen (Apr 10, 2007)

caddy said:


> of course you could always appeal to the BibleDudes!
> 
> http://bibledudes.com/



I scored 11 out of 10 on the http://bibledudes.com/quiz/

Dude, I must be a scholar!


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## Jimmy the Greek (Apr 11, 2007)

I agree with the idea of using Packer's classic, Knowing God. His approach in this (as I'm sure you know) is disarming and effective in laying a Reformed groundwork.


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## caddy (Apr 11, 2007)

Dude ! 

Kinda of reminds me of all those pro athlethes that give 110% !






Doing my part in Making Orthodoxy Cooooool !!!!!!!!



Poimen said:


> I scored 11 out of 10 on the http://bibledudes.com/quiz/
> 
> Dude, I must be a scholar!


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## BobVigneault (Apr 11, 2007)

Knowing God would be a great study. I do however want to begin with a few lessons in Worldview. I could include worldview under epistemology or under apologetics. I would begin with epistemology or "How do we know what we know" (I wouldn't actually use the frightening word 'epistemology'.)

I'm not sure but I think that 'Knowing God' might have the distinction of being the ONLY Christian book that lacks a foreword written by J.I. Packer.


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## BobVigneault (Apr 11, 2007)

Steven, I won't deny that you have very nice maracas, but you might want to lay off sugar for a while. Your dance is making me tired, slow down son.


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## Scott Shahan (Apr 11, 2007)

BobVigneault said:


> Steven, I won't deny that you have very nice maracas, but you might want to lay off sugar for a while. Your dance is making me tired, slow down son.



You know who makes orthodox cool is Mark Driscoll, I love this guy and what he is doing. http://www.marshillchurch.org/.


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## BobVigneault (Apr 11, 2007)

I liked him when I heard him on The Whitehorse Inn but after I saw the evidence of his loose tongue (posted on the PB) I lost interest really fast.


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## Scott Shahan (Apr 11, 2007)

BobVigneault said:


> I liked him when I heard him on The Whitehorse Inn but after I saw the evidence of his loose tongue (posted on the PB) I lost interest really fast.




The youth are more apt to listen to him then say a J.I. Packer. Driscoll speaks to their generation. Driscoll is culturally sensitive while still biblically sound. There are plenty of "pastors" with shortcommings.


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## Scott Shahan (Apr 11, 2007)

Why do you think a Church like Mars Hill is prospering the way it has and continues to do? The story of Mars Hill is an amazing story, hard to say God isn't behind that Church and what is going on in the Northwest. It is apparent that Mars Hill is "doing" something that other churches should take note of. The church I go to is rather "stuffy"; sorry, a guy in his 60's ain't going to be able to hang out with a 20 something person. Time to wake up and smell the coffee. And I am not sure if anyone even knows what an ipod is...... let alone what a podcast is, ect......... I mentioned to the elders about having a "board" like this one, but just for the congregation, so that some would be able to start communicating with one another, I am not sure if their are many there that even know anything about a computer.....ect.... Driscoll has shown that you can preach the Doctrines of Grace and still be hip and cool, and his aproach makes doctrine relevent to this Western Culture. Driscoll has a vision and a passion that is contagious. Driscoll is in his 30's and Piper is in his 60's now. Does age mean something? I think that it might mean something......... there are differences that have to be acknowledged.


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## BJClark (Apr 11, 2007)

Scott Shahan;



> The church I go to is rather "stuffy"; sorry, a guy in his 60's ain't going to be able to hang out with a 20 something person. Time to wake up and smell the coffee. And I am not sure if anyone even knows what an ipod is...... let alone what a podcast is, ect......... I mentioned to the elders about having a "board" like this one, but just for the congregation, so that some would be able to start communicating with one another, I am not sure if their are many there that even know anything about a computer.....ect.... Driscoll has shown that you can preach the Doctrines of Grace and still be hip and cool, and his aproach makes doctrine relevent to this Western Culture. Driscoll has a vision and a passion that is contagious. Driscoll is in his 30's and Piper is in his 60's now. Does age mean something? I think that it might mean something......... there are differences that have to be acknowledged.



the church I go to is not stuffy, My husband and I are the youngest in our Small Group (we are mid 40's) everyone else is 50, 60, 70 years old, most of them are retired and volunteer at the church or go on the missions trips, they are VERY Active Senior Saints. All of them have computers and use e-mail quite frequently, all of them have grandchildren and some have great grandchildren, so don't think that just because they are in their 60's they are behind the times and don't know how to use a computer.

But even if there are a few who don't, maybe you could offer a computer class, and get them started...you could even make your own forum for them and teach them how to use it...


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## Pilgrim (Apr 11, 2007)

BobVigneault said:


> Knowing God would be a great study. I do however want to begin with a few lessons in Worldview. I could include worldview under epistemology or under apologetics. I would begin with epistemology or "How do we know what we know" (I wouldn't actually use the frightening word 'epistemology'.)
> 
> I'm not sure but I think that 'Knowing God' might have the distinction of being the ONLY Christian book that lacks a foreword written by J.I. Packer.



LOL! But I think my copy has 2 prefaces by J.I. Packer. Let's say it is the only book that doesn't have an endorsement by Packer. At one point I think that practically every reformed-leaning book had his endorsement on the cover somewhere. And unfortunately some weren't anywhere close to Reformed (like Kreeft's Ecumenical Jihad).


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## kvanlaan (Apr 19, 2007)

Bob, maybe you'd be able to use something here:

http://start.urclearning.org/

And let's remember, you don't need help making orthodox cool. 

Orthodoxy *IS* cool. 

_Way_ cool. 

It's just that some people don't know it yet.


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## kvanlaan (Apr 19, 2007)

> The youth are more apt to listen to him then say a J.I. Packer.



Why is that? Have we so lost our way that our youth can't handle serious theology? My aunt was telling me of a CRC back home that is looking at doing away with its evening service altogether because it only gets a 30% turnout vs. the morning service. It's the evening service that gets deeply theological (Heidelberg Catechism Lord's Day sermons), and the youth of the church just don't have the biblical knowledge to grasp what's going on. 

BUT the solution is not to dumb it down or try to become _relevant_ (I have a _strong_ revulsion toward that word), the solution is to build stronger families that are better instructed in the Word and less so in the World.



> Driscoll speaks to their generation. Driscoll is _culturally sensitive_ while still biblically sound. There are plenty of "pastors" with shortcommings.



Their generation is steeped in 'me', it _demands_ to be spoken to specifically out of selfishness, ought we to feed the immature beast? And when the world does not hate your Gospel/Christ because it/He has been made 'culturally sensitive', what does that say about the quality of your Gospel message? One of the Wild Boar podcasts on apuritansmind.com deals with this. Rick Warren quotes on a Starbucks cup. Gospel lite. Unoffensive to the world's sensibilities. 

It is not the stew of the Gospel, it is gospel gruel, some tepid water with a bit of turnip floating in it.

That would be my concern with this exercise, with making orthodox 'cool'. There is a fine line between evangelism and entertainment these days. I am well aware that we can't simply stand on a streetcorner and wait for the Spirit to move people to approach us and ask about the Gospel. But we should likewise steer clear of Finney's 'excitements' and the like. We scoff at Saddleback's slick presentations ('He Reigns' among them) but how far is that off of Mars Hill? It is but a short choreographed hop, in my opinion. 

Driscoll has a tough guy image and some other issues (from the interviews I've seen and from the quotes from his book) that just don't jibe well with what a pastor is supposed to be (yep, _my_ idea of a pastor - I know it's narrowminded).

They don't go for CCM at Mars Hill, but they 'rearrange' hymns in a way that "make sense in Seattle." What happens these things no longer "makes sense in Seattle". That's quite a filter for your worship music.

Anyway, I don't mean to hijack. :grumpy prematurely old man rant off: 

I know from the OP that entertainment was not what Bob was after.

Check out the URC guys. I've found some neat stuff there.


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## panta dokimazete (Apr 19, 2007)

Bob - reading through this thread - think you have an EXCELLENT idea.

Bottom line - connecting with younger minds that have a preprogrammed hyper-attenuated attention span trained for 2 second rapid fire information _injection_ is not easy.

I thought the cartoon about "going deep" was cool - and relevant - I think you have to develop a "deep-shallow-deep-shallow" rhythm for modern youth (and heck - modern adults!) to engage and I don't know that any current resources really "exploit" or explain that methodology well.

You may have to "start from scratch".


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