# Heretics



## Don (Apr 19, 2004)

How much of a heretic (or false doctrine) does someone have to be (believe) in order to not be saved? Is it any amount of heresy?


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## Bryan (Apr 19, 2004)

Funny this should come up, I read this the other day:

&quot;A heresy is 'a denial of or a doubt concerning any defined, established Christian doctrine'. There is a difference between heresy and apostasy. Apostasy means 'a departure from the Christian truth'. It may be a total renunciation or denial of it, or it may be a misrepresentation of it to such an extent that it becomes a denial of the whole truth. But a heresy is more limited in its scope. To be guilty of heresy, and to be a heretic, means that in the main you hold to the doctrines of the Christian faith, but that you tend to go wrong on some particular doctrine or aspect of the faith.&quot;
-Martyn-Lloyd Jones

Bryan
SDG


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## Don (Apr 19, 2004)

So would ya'll say that Roman Catholics are not saved (if indeed you think they are not) based upon their belief that you are justified by works or one of their other doctrines such as their beliefs about Mary, etc?


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## BlackCalvinist (Apr 20, 2004)

The gospel has minimum content and that content must be believed and trusted upon in order to be saved.

One who holds an modalistic or arian view of Christ is not saved. The Deity of Christ [b:5420aad7fe]is[/b:5420aad7fe] a part of the gospel (Romans 10:9-13).

One cannot deny the second coming and be a Christian. Christ Himself taught He would come again - not 'in judgment' in 70 AD, but literally and physically (Matthew 25, Rev. 19:11 onward).

One cannot deny the virgin birth and be a Christian. Christ's sinlessness is based upon the fact that He was born of a virgin - to not believe this is to believe that Christ was born sinful as we are. One does not have to present the virgin birth during the gospel presentation (Paul didn't in Acts 17), but a true believer will NOT deny the virgin birth (1 Cor. 12). 

One cannot deny justification by faith alone and be a Christian. Either you believe that faith alone in Christ alone is sufficient, or you believe that you must [i:5420aad7fe]do[/i:5420aad7fe] in order to remain 'saved'.

One cannot deny the exclusivity of Christ (John 14:6) in salvation and be a Christian. You can't say 'Well, I conciously choose Christ as Lord and Savior but everyone doesn't have to in order to be saved.'

These are just some examples, in my opinion. There are more.

[Edited on 4-20-2004 by OS_X]


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## sundoulos (Apr 21, 2004)

Is the Roman doctrine of salvation orthodox? 

Papistical salvation doesn't save. Under Roman Catholicism, Jesus doesn't save. You save yourself.

&quot;The Passion of the Christ&quot; wipes out original sin and all sin to the point of conversion. After that, confession and penance are required (they are sacraments) and purgatory takes care of those sins you missed.

If that is what you believe, you are (sadly) lost.


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## Bernard_Marx (Apr 21, 2004)

OSX,

I agree that those who deny the Virgin birth, et al, are unsaved. However what about those who are of Barthian persuasion? What am I talking about? Barth wouls say that one could believe in these miraculous events in [i:c2a6300aa4]principle and faith[/i:c2a6300aa4] (my wording) without actually believing in them in fact. In otherwords one can put faith, according to Barth, in things that didn't actually happen but are nontheless [i:c2a6300aa4]real.[/i:c2a6300aa4] This idea is otherwise known as I am aware of the horrible inconsistancy, but how are we to square these people? Save or unsaved?

[Edited on 4-21-2004 by Richard B. Davis]


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## Saiph (Apr 21, 2004)

Did the woman at the well, or the thief on the cross, understand justification by faith, the virgin birth, the Trinity, or sola scriptura ? ? ?

Could someone be saved and be ignorant of those truths ? ? ?

Could someone be saved in spite of a false view of those subjects ? ?


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## rembrandt (Apr 21, 2004)

In regards to Rome, there [i:87c8812aee]are[/i:87c8812aee] saving elements in their doctrine. If there were not, no one in their &quot;church&quot; could be saved (which I would disagree with). It is definitely apostate in relation to the Pope. But it is nevertheless in some sense &quot;a church.&quot; 

A.A. Hodge has a good article stating that Rome, even though apostate, is still &quot;a church.&quot; 

I believe that there are enough saving elements in Rome's theology for one to be a Christian.


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## Scott (Apr 21, 2004)

Wintermute:

Those are good questions and I think answers reveal what people think about the nature of salvation. Your question basically asks if salvation comes through doctrine. Many Protestant have bankrupt ecclesiologies, which leaves them with only doctrine abstracted from the Church.

This is in contrast to the Westminster Confession, which reads in part: &quot;The visible church . . . is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, the house and family of God, [i:528b108ff7]out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation[/i:528b108ff7].&quot; WCF 25.2. Note the absence of salvation outside of the visible (not invisible) church. Calvin's Institutes Book 4 is wonderful on this too. 

For many evangelicals, salvation is summed up as a personal philosophy. Salvation is determined by whether an individual trusts in and assents to a set of abstract doctrinal propostions. Affirming this set of doctrines gives someone a &quot;personal relationship&quot; with God. It is as if God has millions or billions of covenants (relationships) with individuals, instead of one covenant with a single Bride, the church. Unfortunately, this standard places other individuals in the role personal judge over every other individual's salvation (there is no other authority that can do this). 

Anyway, that is not an answer to your questions. Just observations about their importance.

Scott

[Edited on 4-21-2004 by Scott]


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## mjbee (Apr 21, 2004)

Thank YOU Mark and Paul! I was regenerated when I had no clue about justification by faith alone, or that faith comes from God on the basis of sovereign grace alone. I did hear the gospel from a Reformed person. Did I grasp everything he said? No, not at all. Did God open my heart to heed the things he spoke? Yes, definitely. 

There are Catholics and Lutherans and Methodists who are saved. I hope the Lord makes us sit next to them at dinner when we get to heaven.:smilegrin: Maybe He'll even throw some Mormons and JW's and New Agers and Freemasons into the mix to make it interesting! And maybe a Hindu and a Wiccan....


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## Don (Apr 21, 2004)

Thank ya'll for your answers. 

Mark,

I would think that the woman at the well and thief on the cross believed in Christ alone to save them and didn't rely on themselves in performing whatever sacraments, etc. in order to be saved.


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## Scott Bushey (Apr 21, 2004)

In fact, The thief new much more than you give him credit for:

Luk 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 
Luk 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, [color=Blue:e7d5d2680d]Text Blue[/color:e7d5d2680d], seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 
Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 
Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, [color=Blue:e7d5d2680d]Lord[/color:e7d5d2680d], remember me when [color=Blue:e7d5d2680d]thou comest into thy kingdom[/color:e7d5d2680d]. 
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The woman of Samaria:

Joh 4:7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink. 
Joh 4:8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.) 
Joh 4:9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans. 
Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. 
Joh 4:11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water? 
Joh 4:12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle? 
Joh 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 
Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. 
Joh 4:15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw. 
Joh 4:16 Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither. 
Joh 4:17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband: 
Joh 4:18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly. 
Joh 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 
Joh 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 
Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 
[color=Blue:e7d5d2680d]Joh 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.[/color:e7d5d2680d] 
Joh 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. 
Joh 4:27 And upon this came his disciples, and marvelled that he talked with the woman: yet no man said, What seekest thou? or, Why talkest thou with her? 
Joh 4:28 The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men, 
[color=Blue:e7d5d2680d]Joh 4:29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ? [/color:e7d5d2680d]
Joh 4:30 Then they went out of the city, and came unto him. 
Joh 4:31 In the mean while his disciples prayed him, saying, Master, eat. 
Joh 4:32 But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of. 
Joh 4:33 Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? 
Joh 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. 
Joh 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest. 
Joh 4:36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together. 
Joh 4:37 And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth. 
Joh 4:38 I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours. 
[color=Blue:e7d5d2680d]Joh 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did. [/color:e7d5d2680d]
Joh 4:40 So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days. 
[color=Blue:e7d5d2680d]Text Blue[/color:e7d5d2680d] 


[Edited on 4-22-2004 by Scott Bushey]


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## pastorway (Apr 21, 2004)

[quote:25d55323f4][i:25d55323f4]Originally posted by mjbee[/i:25d55323f4]

There are Catholics and Lutherans and Methodists who are saved. I hope the Lord makes us sit next to them at dinner when we get to heaven.:smilegrin: Maybe He'll even throw some Mormons and JW's and New Agers and Freemasons into the mix to make it interesting! And maybe a Hindu and a Wiccan.... [/quote:25d55323f4]

The point is that we were all sinners when we were saved. NO matter which church, cult, or false religion we were in, we were all idoloters and the children of wrath (Eph 2:1-2).

However, just because God saved us there doesn't mean we should stay there, or recommend people go there in the hopes that they might hear just enough to be saved.....

There will be no orthodox Roman Catholics, Mormons, JWs, New Agers, Free Masons, Hindu's, Wiccans, etc in heaven. There will be FORMER Roman Catholics, Mormons, JWs, New Agers, Free Masons, Hindus, Wiccans - but not people who whole heartedly embrace the teachings of these groups. They do not have the gospel. They don't. They have lies and a false gospel that damns.

The point is that God can save people wherever there are when He so chooses. He does so by the application of the Word of God through the power of the Spirit. And He does not save anyone outside of Jesus Christ. Just because a person reads a Bible in an RCC service or mass and gets saved does not mean that the RCC has the gospel, even in part. Part of the gospel is none of the gospel. The gospel is the power of God to salvation - as a whole message about the person and work of Christ. 

A group that teaches contrary to the Scriptures on the fundamentals about the person and work of Jesus Christ is not leading people into heaven - people may be called out from them by God's grace, but if they attribute their salvation to that group, then they need to be gently reproved and corrected. God does not use a false, damning gospel to save anyone.

Phillip


[Edited on 4-22-04 by pastorway]


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## fredtgreco (Apr 21, 2004)

[quote:d40bdee0fd][i:d40bdee0fd]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:d40bdee0fd]
I would agree with Mark, but I would say that it would be pretty much impossible to continue in your faith, and grow in sanctification, and not hold to those things

would you agree with that Mark? [/quote:d40bdee0fd]

Paul,

If it is true that such a one would not grow, how can that be true? Doesn't sanctfication always follow justification?


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## fredtgreco (Apr 22, 2004)

If one can be saved without holding to certain doctrines, but those same doctrines were necessary to growth in sanctification (i.e. no sanctification until they were embraced), how do we avoid the implication that sanctification is bifurcated from justification?

In other words, what would happen if one were justified, but never came to embrace those doctrines necessary to sanctification? Would there be no sanctification in such a person (e.g. the &quot;carnal Christian&quot; ) ? If that were the case, how is that possible given that sanctification inevitably and infallibly follows justification? (Romans 8:28ff)

A sincere question.


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## fredtgreco (Apr 22, 2004)

[quote:a2b4d8fee5][i:a2b4d8fee5]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:a2b4d8fee5]
[quote:a2b4d8fee5][i:a2b4d8fee5]Originally posted by fredtgreco[/i:a2b4d8fee5]
If one can be saved without holding to certain doctrines, but those same doctrines were necessary to growth in sanctification (i.e. no sanctification until they were embraced), how do we avoid the implication that sanctification is bifurcated from justification?

In other words, what would happen if one were justified, but never came to embrace those doctrines necessary to sanctification? Would there be no sanctification in such a person (e.g. the &quot;carnal Christian&quot; ) ? If that were the case, how is that possible given that sanctification inevitably and infallibly follows justification? (Romans 8:28ff)

A sincere question. [/quote:a2b4d8fee5]

I said, &quot;virtually impossible.&quot;

I was saying that I agree that one could be saved without holding to theological doctrines such as the trinity, (e.g., theif on the cross).

I am saying that that wouldn't be the case if they were allowed to live and progress. If they were truely saved when they didn't believe in the trinity (or know how to formulate it/whatever) then they would progress to eventually holding those doctrines. If they didn't then I would say that they were probably never saved in the first place.

clearer?

-Paul [/quote:a2b4d8fee5]

Yes. Thanks. That clears it up for me.


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## Saiph (Apr 22, 2004)

Notice, Scott, from your Scripture quotes, I did not include the diety of Christ in my list.

Trust and reliance on that basic level is necessary.

Sanctification is the twin sister of justification Fred. I agree.
Justification was born first.


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## Scott Bushey (Apr 22, 2004)

Fair enough Mark.........


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## Scott (Apr 22, 2004)

As a practical matter, the PCA does not appear to make adherence to those doctrines as an absolute necessity for justification. The bare minimum (in the PCA's opinon) for justification is stated in the profession of faith that must be taken in order to become a communicant member or be baptized as an adult. Consider the simple profession of faith that must be answered in the affirmative to become a communing member of a PCA church (from the Book of Church Order, Ch. 57-5):


[quote:331ea134f8]1. Do you acknowledge yourselves to be sinners in the sight of God, justly deserving His displeasure, and without hope save in His sovereign mercy?

2. Do you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as the Son of God, and Savior of sinners, and do you receive and rest upon Him alone for salvation as He is offered in the Gospel?

3. Do you now resolve and promise, in humble reliance upon the grace of the Holy Spirit, that you will endeavor to live as becomes the followers of Christ?

4. Do you promise to support the Church in its worship and work to the best of your ability?

5. Do you submit yourselves to the government and discipline of the Church, and promise to study its purity and peace?[/quote:331ea134f8]

There are [b:331ea134f8]not[/b:331ea134f8] these additional questions asked:

6. Do you affirm sola scriptura?
7. Do you understand and believe in the Trinity?
8. Do you believe in the virgin birth?
9. Can you give a more detailed explanation of the Protestant formula of justification?

So, I think that is one Reformed body's view on the matter.

Scott

[Edited on 4-22-2004 by Scott]


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## brymaes (Apr 22, 2004)

[quote:09431f00e0]
&quot;Moreover, brethren, [b:09431f00e0]I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; by which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.[/b:09431f00e0] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that [b:09431f00e0]Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:[/b:09431f00e0] and that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: after that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.&quot;
1 Corinthians 15.1-8
[/quote:09431f00e0]

The message of the Gospel is thus: Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures. This is what is nessesary for salvation. As was stated already, if a person is truly saved, the process of sanctification will bring them to a greater knowledge of doctrine. But we must not bring the standards for salvation higher than God Himself would!


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## Scott (Apr 22, 2004)

I think that a justified person would come to believe the virgin birth. I also think that they would accept the Trinity. 

I think this presents some practical problems, though, as I doubt 95 percent of rank and file evangelicals (and even less outside) could even describe the Trinity in an orthodox way. When asked, a typical evangelical will describe the Trinity to mean that God is &quot;three and one at the same time&quot; and they typically mean three and one in the same way, which they chalk up in their mind to mystery. To say he is one and three in the same way is unorthodox. God is one in substance and three in person. 

Even a brief study of relevant confessions or creeds could give a simple and accurate way to describe the proper formula. but most evangelicals are anti-creedal or at the very least don't bother with them.

Another practical problem is how much of the doctrine of the Trinity needs to be understood? The Westminster Confession has this simple, but controversial, formula:

[quote:6e4d9cf7b5]
In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost: the Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son. 
[/quote:6e4d9cf7b5]

Our confession adopts this Roman Catholic addition to the Nicene creed, which holds that the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from both the father and the son. Eastern Orthodox believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father. 

Anyway, does someone who does not believe that the Spirit proceeds from the Son &quot;accept the Trinity?&quot; I know someone at a presbytery or GA meeting a year or two ago took exception to this clause without any backlash. 

Scott


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## BlackCalvinist (Apr 22, 2004)

[quote:c5cb484bd2]2. Do you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as the Son of God, and Savior of sinners, and do you receive and rest upon Him alone for salvation as He is offered in the Gospel?[/quote:c5cb484bd2]

A Jehovah's Witness could affirm this and probably quote the scriptures back to you.

What do you do with John 8:24 ?

Who are we calling on to be saved in Romans 10:9-13 ?


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## mjbee (Apr 22, 2004)

C'mon, let's don't be so anthropocentric. If the Sprit regenerates you, will He leave you in the RCC? If you're biblically challenged, will He leave you that way? He is the Spirit of Truth who will guide you! What, He saves, but fails to sanctify? I seem to recall Paul rebuking the Galatians about this, in chapter 3. 

In another thread somebody said, &quot;Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out.&quot; No. You love 'em and feed 'em and give 'em a drink of cold water on a hot day, and you tell them about the gospel of Christ. God will sort them out in due time. Killing them is not one of our options.


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## Scott Bushey (Apr 22, 2004)

(Paul, getting the hammer)
:smash:


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## BlackCalvinist (Apr 23, 2004)

[quote:cfad29d2e9][i:cfad29d2e9]Originally posted by mjbee[/i:cfad29d2e9]
C'mon, let's don't be so anthropocentric. If the Sprit regenerates you, will He leave you in the RCC? If you're biblically challenged, will He leave you that way? He is the Spirit of Truth who will guide you! What, He saves, but fails to sanctify? [/quote:cfad29d2e9]

So do you believe that all true believers who are still in Rome will [b:cfad29d2e9]all[/b:cfad29d2e9] get led out of Rome prior to death ?


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## Bradley Arakelian (Apr 23, 2004)

Your question about the treatment of heretics is insightful and thought-provoking, Paul. It is worth considering. That is what I like about you. Should we use an ordinary kitchen oven, or would a commercial one be better?

The disadvantage here is that it could create a martyrdom syndrome. To this day, Jehovah's Witnesses are proud of all of their numbers who died in Hitler's concentration camps.

Yours Faithfully,

Bradley Arakelian


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## Scott Bushey (Apr 23, 2004)

[quote:d9a8543576][i:d9a8543576]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:d9a8543576]
[quote:d9a8543576][i:d9a8543576]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:d9a8543576]
(Paul, getting the hammer)
:smash: .[/quote:d9a8543576]

So you disagree with Calvin on this one Scott?

You should have posted in the &quot;Here's where I disagree with________&quot; thread instead of the heretic thread.

[/quote:d9a8543576]

:book:


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## Bradley Arakelian (Apr 23, 2004)

Remember, Paul, that there is nothing wrong with the ovens as long as [i:d120db565e]we[/i:d120db565e] decide who goes into the ovens.


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## Scott Bushey (Apr 24, 2004)

[img:5ce6a16b6c]http://www.semperreformanda.com/images/offtopid.gif[/img:5ce6a16b6c]
Enough of the ovens................


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