# D.Min in Puritan Studies



## Ivan (Dec 29, 2009)

I don't know if Larry Bray, the President of the North American Reformed Seminary and a contributor here on the Puritan Board, has announced this, but I found this on the seminary's website this evening (hopefully this PDF file will work):

http://www.tnars.net/PuritanDMin.pdf

Don't get the impression that this is an easy degree. I've looked into it on the website and it's tough, but I believe it might be rewarding. I'd like to know what others think of this degree program.


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## au5t1n (Dec 29, 2009)




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## Zenas (Dec 29, 2009)

Light* reading. 



*I didn't know they made that many long books.


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## Michael (Dec 29, 2009)

How bout the *light* _writing_!


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## Ivan (Dec 29, 2009)

It is a tough program.


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## Zenas (Dec 29, 2009)

I count 34 papers. 

1,360 pages total. :vomit:


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## Herald (Dec 29, 2009)

Wimps.


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## Ivan (Dec 29, 2009)

Herald said:


> Wimps.



No kidding.

-----Added 12/29/2009 at 09:41:28 EST-----

Actually, I think it has to be more page than that, but I never counted them.


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## SolaScriptura (Dec 29, 2009)

Please help me understand.
What is the appeal, or even the value, of just sitting at home doing a lot of reading and then writing a big paper "about" that volume? What about that process is really academic or demonstrating ability to do original research or even demonstrating mastery over a specific subject? You're just writing book reports.

Heck, if you want I can throw together a slug fest of a program, let you beat yourself up checking all the blocks, and then when you finish I can mail you a picture of me wearing a 70s gold chain, smoking a stogie and giving you a thumbs up... if you want. And I'd only charge you $50 plus shipping. Sounds like a steal of a deal to me! And just imagine the value of all the work you'd have done! Come on! Sign up!


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Dec 29, 2009)

Can I get the picture without the work?


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## Ivan (Dec 29, 2009)

SolaScriptura said:


> Please help me understand.
> What is the appeal, or even the value, of just sitting at home doing a lot of reading and then writing a big paper "about" that volume? What about that process is really academic or demonstrating ability to do original research or even demonstrating mastery over a specific subject? You're just writing book reports.
> 
> Heck, if you want I can throw together a slug fest of a program, let you beat yourself up checking all the blocks, and then when you finish I can mail you a picture of me wearing a 70s gold chain, smoking a stogie and giving you a thumbs up... if you want. And I'd only charge you $50 plus shipping. Sounds like a steal of a deal to me! And just imagine the value of all the work you'd have done! Come on! Sign up!



There is a thesis to write at the end of the program. Also, during the program, you have a mentor with whom you interact.


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## SolaScriptura (Dec 29, 2009)

Ivan said:


> SolaScriptura said:
> 
> 
> > Please help me understand.
> ...



"Interact." What does that mean, practically?

-----Added 12/29/2009 at 10:01:38 EST-----



Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Can I get the picture without the work?



No way! That would lessen the value of the prize for those who would sign up for my unaccredited "degree" program.


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## Ivan (Dec 29, 2009)

There is a thesis to write at the end of the program. Also, during the program, you have a mentor with whom you interact.[/quote]

"Interact." What does that mean, practically?
[/QUOTE]

Ask Larry, I'm sure he'd be happy to answer your questions.


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## SolaScriptura (Dec 29, 2009)

Guys - I apologize for being negative. Please be excited about this program if you so desire.

While I don't think that just drowning someone in book report work means that they've been educated or demonstrated academic excellence or the ability to do original research, nonetheless I _can_ be glad that someone who subjects themself to this course of study would be well aquianted with several of the key works of the Puritan tradition.


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## cih1355 (Dec 29, 2009)

Just out of curiosity, why doesn't the program require the taking of exams and the writing of research papers other than the thesis?


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## DMcFadden (Dec 29, 2009)

Ivan,

I am not so keen on the idea of distance learning for a primary ministerial degree (UNLESS it was coupled with heavy apprenticeship). However, at your stage of life, another "degree" is not a ticket to an academic berth. Nor is it likely to be an ego trip. You will do long and substantive work and will receive recognition for that work. Some may be so self motivated that such structure would be of little value for them. I, for one, have concluded that adult learning can be of great value, having done graduate work in both brick and mortar and adult learning formats. For the record, my M.A.O.M. for working adults was much more rigorous than my M.Div. Both were accredited: the b&m was "prestige" although less work than the organizational managment program with a 576 pg. thesis, classes in statistics, economics, project managmenent, etc.

The quality of adult learning programs vary greatly, as greatly as they do in format. Some are cohort based with weekly face-to-face encounters (e.g., many MBA, MAOM programs). Others are mentor based. Some are online. One of the oldest formats is correspondence.

Ivan, it looks to me as if you will read a lot, write a lot, and actually do independent research for the thesis. For the life of me it is difficult to understand why anyone would bad rap a DMin. anyway. Most academics look down their noses at the degree as a necessary evil "cash cow" for keeping the seminary funded. It is supposed to be a degree for working clergy in order to help them become more effective, NOT a major contribution to the field of knowledge as we think for PhDs. So, so what if you make a "major breakthrough" in the meaning of meaning?


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## Ivan (Dec 29, 2009)

Hmmm...I never said I was interested in the degree, just that it was available.


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## Kevin (Dec 30, 2009)

SolaScriptura said:


> Please help me understand.
> What is the appeal, or even the value, of just sitting at home doing a lot of reading and then writing a big paper "about" that volume? What about that process is really academic or demonstrating ability to do original research or even demonstrating mastery over a specific subject? You're just writing book reports.
> 
> Heck, if you want I can throw together a slug fest of a program, let you beat yourself up checking all the blocks, and then when you finish I can mail you a picture of me wearing a 70s gold chain, smoking a stogie and giving you a thumbs up... if you want. And I'd only charge you $50 plus shipping. Sounds like a steal of a deal to me! And just imagine the value of all the work you'd have done! Come on! Sign up!




I SO want that picture!


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## GD (Dec 30, 2009)

A significant factor in learning is who you study under, because it is they who will guide your study and question your assumptions, causing you to reflect and think carefully. Since the President and both VP’s of TNARS received their highest degrees from . . . TNARS, which looks to be about two years old, who did they study under? How are they then qualified to supervise the doctoral research of others?


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Dec 30, 2009)

David G said:


> A significant factor in learning is who you study under, because it is they who will guide your study and question your assumptions, causing you to reflect and think carefully. Since the President and both VP’s of TNARS received their highest degrees from . . . TNARS, which looks to be about two years old, who did they study under? How are they then qualified to supervise the doctoral research of others?


Since I know Mr. Bray, I am quite certain that there are more than two mentors at TNARS, so this is an unfair statement. And by the way, anyone who thinks they are qualified to be be a mentor is encouraged to apply for the role at the TNARS site. Their enrollment is now limited somewhat due to the lack of qualified mentors. 

I am a big believer in the old European style of advanced learning, where persons _sat for exams_, and attended _at their option_, lectures in prep for these exams. The idea that sitting in a brick and mortar location is somehow, _prima facie_, evidence of proper learning ignores history.

Self-study is not for everyone, and one gets out of such an endeavor what they put into it. One would hope that the believer would not enter into such and endeavor with motives of simply "buying" a degree. Moreover, I don't think TNARS fits the category of a degree mill as some have implied here without warrant. In addition to qualified mentorship, students accepted to the TNARS programs must have been granted a recommendation from the local session. And they are monitored by the session.

Full disclosure: I am not a TNARS student nor a member of TNARS administration. I do moderate a site that hosts the online discussion forums for all TNARS' students.

AMR


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## larryjf (Dec 30, 2009)

David G said:


> A significant factor in learning is who you study under, because it is they who will guide your study and question your assumptions, causing you to reflect and think carefully. Since the President and both VP’s of TNARS received their highest degrees from . . . TNARS, which looks to be about two years old, who did they study under? How are they then qualified to supervise the doctoral research of others?



I just wanted to address a technical issue here. My highest degree is actually with Miami International Seminary (MINTS). For my MINTS degree i studied under Greg Hauenstein.

Anyone who is interested in the credentials of our mentors should look at the Oversight Department page to see quite a number of qualified individuals.

-----Added 12/30/2009 at 06:42:00 EST-----



SolaScriptura said:


> Please help me understand.
> What is the appeal, or even the value, of just sitting at home doing a lot of reading and then writing a big paper "about" that volume? What about that process is really academic or demonstrating ability to do original research or even demonstrating mastery over a specific subject? You're just writing book reports.
> 
> Heck, if you want I can throw together a slug fest of a program, let you beat yourself up checking all the blocks, and then when you finish I can mail you a picture of me wearing a 70s gold chain, smoking a stogie and giving you a thumbs up... if you want. And I'd only charge you $50 plus shipping. Sounds like a steal of a deal to me! And just imagine the value of all the work you'd have done! Come on! Sign up!



It's certainly not for everybody. But the implication that there's a charge is not correct. We are free and never charge anything.


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