# Which of these quotes do you agree with more?



## Andres (Mar 22, 2012)

I have two quotes below that speak to sanctification, or holiness, in the life of the Christian. The quotes seem to take differing stances on our motivation for holy living. I am curious as to which quote you would agree with more. If you'd care to give reasons why you voted the way you did, please do so in the comments. Lastly, I am purposefully not identifying whom the quotes are from because I don't want that to sway the votes any. If you happen to know whom I'm quoting, I'd ask you to please refrain from saying so. 

Quote #1:


> "In his justification, the Christian has already passed through the judgment of God. He pursues holiness not in order to be right with God, but as a response to God's gracious declaration that he already is right with him."


Quote #2:


> "The deepest motive for holy living is not gratitude for the forgiveness of sin but the believer's existence as a new creature."


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## Zach (Mar 22, 2012)

I think it does not have to be one or the other. Both resonate with why I strive to live a holy life before God. I am thankful for the new life that he has given me and that new life is a call to holy living before God. However, I voted for #1 because, "He pursues holiness not in order to be right with God," is so crucial to the sanctification of the Christian. If that is not the case, all striving to live a holy life is merely an attempt at works based justification. I don't statement two implies that at all, but I agree with statement one more. 

Also, your son sure is beautiful, Andrew!


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## Jack K (Mar 23, 2012)

From John Owen's _Christologia:_



> Motives unto to love of Christ are so great, so many, so diffused through the whole dispensation of God in him unto us, as that they can by no hand be fully expressed…. The studying, the collection of them, or so many of them as we are able, the meditation on them, and improvement of them, is among the principal duties of our whole lives.



Why would we limit ourselves to two choices? Our motivations for loving God are more than we could count.

Let's not speak against any of them. Let's develop and build on all of them.


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## Tripel (Mar 23, 2012)

Choosing from only the two, I much prefer #1 due to its clarity. I was nodding my head in agreement as I read it. As for the second, I had to go back and read it a couple more times to grasp it. But that may just be because I'm simple-minded.


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## J. Dean (Mar 23, 2012)

Tripel said:


> Choosing from only the two, I much prefer #1 due to its clarity. I was nodding my head in agreement as I read it. As for the second, I had to go back and read it a couple more times to grasp it. But that may just be because I'm simple-minded.



Agreed. While I think #2 has its place, #1 is more "authentic" (for lack of a better word) and scriptural. Somewhere else on the board I compared it to serving one's spouse out of a heart of love vs. serving one's spouse out of a fear of causing anger or divorce. Both may look the same on the surface, but they're done out of completely different mindsets and motivations.


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## Shawn Mathis (Mar 23, 2012)

Jack K said:


> From John Owen's Christologia:
> 
> Motives unto to love of Christ are so great, so many, so diffused through the whole dispensation of God in him unto us, as that they can by no hand be fully expressed…. The studying, the collection of them, or so many of them as we are able, the meditation on them, and improvement of them, is among the principal duties of our whole lives.



I tend to agree with Owen. That being said, quote #1 is more accurate (and never states gratitude the _only _motive just the motive in contrast with guilt). By a similar contrast, guilt is accompanied with fear and perfect love casts out fear.

Quote #2 I find unhelpful because it made a contrast "not...but.." that does not have to be made (cp. Owen). It is also unhelpful because of the unclear language: "The deepest motive for holy living is...the believer's existence as a new creature." Is the motive, "thank you Lord for making me a new creation" (which would not exclude gratitude for forgiveness). Or is the quote asserting that mere existence as a new creature creates a desire for holy living? 

If the latter, then it is asserting a truism: the nature of a Christian is such that he will desire holy living (however inconsistently). If the former, then the Christian is grateful for being a new creation which creation was accompanied by forgiveness of sins. 

my two cents,

PS. How'd you get your son to read at such an early age


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## baron (Mar 23, 2012)

I voted for #1 it seems clearer to me. 

But I was tempted to vote for I don't know about the quotes, but you're son sure is beautiful!


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## GulfCoast Presbyterian (Mar 23, 2012)

There should be an option to vote for #1 and #3!


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## PuritanCovenanter (Mar 23, 2012)

I like this view. 



> *The Gospel is temporary, but the law is eternal and is restored precisely through the Gospel. Freedom from the law consists, then, not in the fact that the Christian has nothing more to do with the law, but lies in the fact that the law demands nothing more from the Christian as a condition of salvation. The law can no longer judge and condemn him. Instead he delights in the law of God according to the inner man and yearns for it day and night.*
> 
> Herman Bavinck


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## Andres (Mar 23, 2012)

I would agree with the others that are _many _reasons why we love God and pursue holiness and I would agree that there is an element to both of these quotes that ring true. First, here is how I am reading the quotes (perhaps someone may disagree with my understanding). 

I read quote #1 to say, "The reason a Christian pursues holiness is because they are grateful unto God for the great thing He has done on their behalf - He has justified them!"

I read quote #2 to say, "The reason a Christian pursues holiness is because they are a new creature in Christ and therefore it is now their nature to pursue holiness." 

All my life I always understood #1 to be the reason, but I can't deny that scripture teaches we "have become slaves of righteousness" (Rom 6:18). Quote #2 and this recent thread and subsequent discussion have caused me to wonder if I've been missing it all these years. Also I think it should be pointed out that the author of quote #2 does specifically state that his reason trumps quote #1.


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## Jack K (Mar 23, 2012)

Quote #1 is plainly true. No disagreement there.

Quote #2 is trying to express, I think, a good truth. This is that we have more at our disposal than merely appreciating our justification and the gratitude that comes with this. We have real spiritual power to obey that comes from our new life in Christ, and a God-given attitude toward the law that makes it lovely to us, as Christ is lovely to us. Amen to that! Without it, there would be no gratitude at all.

But I might call this "power" or "enabling" rather than a "motivation." And that quote would be better if it didn't take an unnecessary swipe at gratitude or suggest that gratitude is limited to being thankful for forgiveness. It's thankful for _everything_ God gives! And there are good arguments in favor of the idea that obedience soaked in gratitude is the best, deepest obedience, and the only obedience that's full obedience:
(1) Gratitude has its seed outside of ourselves, in the person and work of Christ.
(2) Gratitude is love-based, and love for God is the first and great commandment.


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## CalvinandHodges (Mar 23, 2012)

Hi:

Number 2 is more Reformed as it speaks to the sanctifying work of the Spirit of God and the believer's response to it in faith. Number 1 is a subcategory of Number 2: We are thankful for salvation, and we do pursue holiness because of it, but we are unable to do so until the Spirit of God grants us the ability to live a holy life.

Just my 2cents

Blessings,

Rob


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## Scott1 (Mar 23, 2012)

As to sanctification, I like Mr. Packer's description....



> _Concise Theology,_ J.I. Packer, p. 170
> 
> Sanctification.... is an ongoing cooperative process in which regenerate persons, alive to God and freed from sin's dominion, are required to exert themselves in sustained obedience. God's method of sanctification is neither activism (self-reliant activity) nor apathy (God-reliant passivity), but God-dependent effort.
> [scripture references omitted]



Notice that, in one sense at least, obedience is required.


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## Unoriginalname (Mar 23, 2012)

I feel that while quote 2 is shorter it is more comprehensive than quote 1 if quote 1 is taken to be the chief motive which knowing the author I do not think he would put forth as the principle motive.  So I voted 2


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