# Vegetarianism and the modern Christian



## Timobe (Dec 16, 2013)

Since some time, I've been thinking about the subject. And i've talked with some Christians that hold view of vegetarianism.

And i must say that, for example, at the beginning, the man was not supposed to eat meat but rather fruits in the garden of Eden. Plus, the simple act of eating meats imply killing an animal which is always easier to think about when you doesn't actually kill animals yourself ; the act of killing is never elegant. 

Moreover, with the present state of the treatment of the meat ; as Christians, we are facing a more difficult question than in the time of Paul... If you want to be sure about it, look at that video : MeatVideo.com - The video the meat industry doesn't want you to see. (Caution, there are some difficult things to see in that video)

But, I've to admit that, in my opinion, it's just impossible to live, today, without meats and eggs ! And if we take those aliments with thankfulness, I'm sure there is no big deal with that. Although, I submit that post in order to read what you guys are thinking and what are the arguments of both sides because in the European church we doesn't really care about the "vegetarianism question" whereas i hear that there are a lot of debates on that in Americans churches.


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## Logan (Dec 16, 2013)

Perhaps it is because so many people are so far removed from the "killing and eating" process that this becomes an issue. I raised rabbits for meat as a teen and when you understand the raising process is for food and not for pets, it's really not a problem. It seems to be more of a modern "problem" than an age-old one.

I agree that there are abuses in the industry and as Christians we need to be good, responsible stewards and care for the creation, yet part of that is responsibly using (not abusing) resources we have been provided with. 

Here's one way to look at it: my father raises beef cattle. The cattle are well-cared for, well-fed, happy, protected, cared for when sick and are helped with the birthing process. Were it not for his care, many of the cows would die horrible, painful deaths, and many of the calves would die. Many of them would die for lack of food if they were in the wild and it is certain that most of them would not have been born. If they were not being raised to eat, their lives (if they even had a life) would be far more miserable in general. Are they worse off or better off for being raised to feed man?


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## Andres (Dec 16, 2013)

Someone may choose to be a vegetarian if they'd like - there is liberty to do so. One may also choose to consume meat if they'd like; again there is liberty to do so.


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## Claudiu (Dec 16, 2013)

Andres said:


> Someone may choose to be a vegetarian if they'd like - there is liberty to do so. One may also choose to consume meat if they'd like; again there is liberty to do so.



This is my position.


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## jandrusk (Dec 16, 2013)

Claudiu said:


> Andres said:
> 
> 
> > Someone may choose to be a vegetarian if they'd like - there is liberty to do so. One may also choose to consume meat if they'd like; again there is liberty to do so.
> ...



I agree as well, but I think it's healthier and therefore a more wise means of stewarding the temple where the Holy Spirit resides.


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## VictorBravo (Dec 16, 2013)

I have little to add to what Claudiu and Andrew just said, except for a personal preference observation.

Whenever I hear of a "Biblical diet", I think of Abraham's feast in Genesis 18: Hearth-cakes and meat garnished with butter and milk.

Food fit for messengers of God and other special guests.


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## Timobe (Dec 16, 2013)

@Logan : I really like your point of view, thanks.
@Andres/Claudiu : Of course !
@Jandrusk : Yep, you got a serious point.
@Victor Bravo : Ok ; why not ?  No, in fact, that argument is not valid because the Revelation was progressive and Abraham was doing many things which will be not allowed after with a fuller revelation (p.e. : having sexual rapport with a servant, having slaves,...). If I make an argumentation on the life of Abraham then I could say that having slaves is permitted which is, of course, not allowed due to the love that we have to have for the neighbor. In the time of the NT, it was too early to revolutionize the omnipresent social rule of slavery so Paul said to behave well with love between a slave and his master. But thanks to God, they were Christians who after stood up against slavery because it was simply against love and respect of the neighbor.


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## VictorBravo (Dec 16, 2013)

Sure, Timothée, except I wasn't making an argument.  It was a good-natured jab at the back-to-Eden folks.

And besides, has there been further revelation that biscuits and meat are not fit for the godly...?


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## hammondjones (Dec 16, 2013)

VictorBravo said:


> And besides, has there been further revelation that biscuits and meat are not fit for the godly...?



I think that is covered in Rick Warren's new Purpose Driven Diet.



The Daniel Plan: 40 Days to a Healthier Life: Rick Warren, Daniel Amen, Mark Hyman: 9780310344292: Amazon.com: Books


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## Peairtach (Dec 16, 2013)

It's wrong to be a vegetarian for the wrong reasons e.g. motivated by Hinduism or New Age beliefs.

It's clear from the Bible that we shouldn't be wantonly cruel to animals, from a number of verses: e.g.


> A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast:
> but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel. (Prov 12:10)


It is also clear that we are free to eat meat if we wish, and that our Lord did so.

We are also free to refrain from eating meat if we wish to (e.g. Romans 14).


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## a mere housewife (Dec 16, 2013)

hammondjones said:


> The Daniel Plan: 40 Days to a Healthier Life: Rick Warren, Daniel Amen, Mark Hyman: 9780310344292: Amazon.com: Books



*unsuccessfully smothers giggles* Surely that is a spoof?

(edit: I tried to delete this but cannot: it would seem not to be a spoof -- and I feel rather terrible for laughing. And yet it is so funny . . . )


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## Quatchu (Dec 16, 2013)

My wife is vegetarian I am not. I see no problem, she was vegetarian long before she met me. Her reasons are about the treatment of animals and she just has never cared for meat. She has no trouble with anyone does and will often cook meat for me or guests. People have often commented that she is one of the nicest vegetarians they have met, as many are very confrontational towards anyone who eats meat.


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## Edward (Dec 16, 2013)

Many vegetarians seem to make an idol of their vegetarianism.


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## kvanlaan (Dec 16, 2013)

Andres said:


> Someone may choose to be a vegetarian if they'd like - there is liberty to do so. One may also choose to consume meat if they'd like; again there is liberty to do so.



But the problem is that as Edward said above, it quite often becomes an all-consuming thing. Also, when I see Peter's vision of the clean and the unclean animals, I do wonder - can we call unclean what Christ has called clean? We have no 'haram' foods.


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## irresistible_grace (Dec 16, 2013)

kvanlaan said:


> Andres said:
> 
> 
> > Someone may choose to be a vegetarian if they'd like - there is liberty to do so. One may also choose to consume meat if they'd like; again there is liberty to do so.
> ...



Romans 14:20-21 immediately come to mind! All food is clean BUT if it causes someone to stumble "don't eat meat" for the sake of the gospel!!!

Most people "under the sun" make an idol out of just about anything "under the sun." 
We are idol making factories. 

I think veganism is far more dangerous than vegetarianism because in many ways it is it's own Religion. That said, vegetarianism in the broader sense is not unbiblical. I personally lean toward "lacto-ovo vegetarianism" (most days of the week) ... The promised land was "flowing with milk and honey" after all! 
Besides, we are on a tight budget & quality meat is very expensive.

The last time we had a lot of meat in the house is when I was on ATKINS & my four year old ended up in the hospital with kidney problems as a result. We eat meat sparingly & rarely have any meat (with the exception of fish) in our home. 

EDIT: I never said we abstain from meat! We eat meat in moderation & lean toward lacto-ovo vegetarianism (we love cheese too much to ever become vegan)!


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## Edward (Dec 16, 2013)

irresistible_grace said:


> Besides, we are on a tight budget & quality meat is very expensive.



I can't disagree with that. But a little bit of streak o' lean sure flavors up bean and greens.


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## Timobe (Dec 17, 2013)

@Victor Bravo : Hum ok . Nope, and that's the main point of the thing ; the Holy Spirit didn't talk about it in the scriptures except for saying that we can eat all if we want to (with an attitude of thankfulness of course). But I do understand the people that doesn't eat meat. For my part, I love meat too much .
@Peairtach : Thanks for the proverb, it's a really good finding indeed ! 
@Quatchu, Edward and the others : Thanks ; i do know people who are respectful vegetarians that don't make out of their choice of life a "new religion" and don't judge the others. If vegetarianism turn the people to judge and show no respect to the others, it doesn't glorify the Lord and it's useless.


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## kvanlaan (Dec 17, 2013)

> However, vegetarianism in the broader sense is far more Biblical than it is dangerous.



Um, not sure about the basis for this... Perhaps it is not dangerous, but I don't know about the 'more biblical' side of it.


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## Andres (Dec 17, 2013)

kvanlaan said:


> Andres said:
> 
> 
> > Someone may choose to be a vegetarian if they'd like - there is liberty to do so. One may also choose to consume meat if they'd like; again there is liberty to do so.
> ...



I concur wholeheartedly with you brother. If a vegetarian were making claims that meat is "unclean" then they would be in error and in need of correction. I liken the choice to abstain from meat as similar to the choice to abstain from alcohol - it's simply a matter of choice. However if the vegetarian or the alcohol-abstainer is doing so because they believe meat or alcohol to somehow be inherently evil, then they sin by condemning that which God does not.


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## Andres (Dec 17, 2013)

irresistible_grace said:


> The last time we had a lot of meat in the house is when I was on ATKINS & my four year old ended up in the hospital with kidney problems as a result. We eat meat sparingly & rarely have any meat (with the exception of fish) in our home.



We have to use wisdom when enjoying the good gifts God has given us. Enjoyment in moderation is always wise. Be careful not to confuse _overconsumption _of meat (Atkins diet) that led to problems with blaming meat in general for the problems. Again, I use the alcohol example - my dear father-in-law thinks it's completely wrong to consume any alcohol because he's witnessed the abuse of it in the past. Now I love and respect my FIL greatly, however, he is flat out wrong in his blanket condemnation of alcohol based solely on it's cases of abuse or overconsumption.


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## kvanlaan (Dec 17, 2013)

> I concur wholeheartedly with you brother. If a vegetarian were making claims that meat is "unclean" then they would be in error and in need of correction. I liken the choice to abstain from meat as similar to the choice to abstain from alcohol - it's simply a matter of choice. However if the vegetarian or the alcohol-abstainer is doing so because they believe meat or alcohol to somehow be inherently evil, then they sin by condemning that which God does not.



Amen.


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## Claudiu (Dec 17, 2013)

jandrusk said:


> Claudiu said:
> 
> 
> > Andres said:
> ...



That's the bottom line. I have no problem with people consuming alcohol or meat. However, there is a sizable portion here in America that can't handle themselves (they consume way too much). In the end, we have the liberty, but must be wise in how we use it.


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## Somerset (Dec 17, 2013)

a mere housewife said:


> hammondjones said:
> 
> 
> > The Daniel Plan: 40 Days to a Healthier Life: Rick Warren, Daniel Amen, Mark Hyman: 9780310344292: Amazon.com: Books
> ...



I eagerly await the follow up "The Jonah diet" - spend three days in a whale without food.


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## Hemustincrease (Dec 17, 2013)

Somerset said:


> I eagerly await the follow up "The Jonah diet" - spend three days in a whale without food.



LOL. Now there’s an idea for an exciting new business venture. Now how to go about securing the partnership of a whale or other big fish? ‘Elf and safety’ would not approve for sure.


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## jwithnell (Dec 17, 2013)

Older folks where I grew up on the piedmont of Georgia recall families that kept a pitcher of grease and another of sorghum syrup on the table. Most foods would be smothered with one or the other or both in a time and place where many families were desperate to get enough calories -- work was hard and the veggies from your garden (if you were blessed with the space and time to have one) only kept you full for a little while. My father remembers children with rickets and other problems related to diets that had a lot of cornmeal and very few vitamins. I'm amused when I hear about people touting vegetarianism as a healthier diet and a way to save the world when a fairly large percentage of the world's population would love to have the choice to eat high-protein, calorie-dense foods.


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## ReformedChristian (Dec 17, 2013)

I have no problem with Christians who are vegetarians as the Apostle Paul writes in Romans 14:1-4 

"Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand."

Now if a Christian teaches or even a church teaches that eating meat and other things is a sin then I consider that a doctrine of demons 1st Timothy 4:1-5


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## Clark-Tillian (Dec 17, 2013)

Vegetarianism is acceptable, it is optional. But the vegetarian may not bind another's conscience.


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## kvanlaan (Dec 17, 2013)

> Older folks where I grew up on the piedmont of Georgia recall families that kept a pitcher of grease and another of sorghum syrup on the table. Most foods would be smothered with one or the other or both in a time and place where many families were desperate to get enough calories -- work was hard and the veggies from your garden (if you were blessed with the space and time to have one) only kept you full for a little while. My father remembers children with rickets and other problems related to diets that had a lot of cornmeal and very few vitamins. I'm amused when I hear about people touting vegetarianism as a healthier diet and a way to save the world when a fairly large percentage of the world's population would love to have the choice to eat high-protein, calorie-dense foods.



A couple of things here: though I am no tree-hugger, I find it fairly funny when people espouse vegetarianism under the present conditions in part due to ecological benefits. Looking at the monoculture that is produced by current farming methods, it seems a little myopic to advocate the Monsanto Regime of farming and destroy thousands of acres of pasture, wetlands, etc. (which is presently being done) for the sake of vegetarian diets. Mother Earth magazine had an article on it some time ago (http://www.motherearthnews.com/nature-and-environment/the-vegetarianism-myth-zmaz10jjzraw.aspx#axzz2nncuTxA3) and it was truly hated by a lot on the PETA scale of vegetarians (which, please understand, I am accusing precisely no-one of being in this discussion or on this board). If we are talking about organic farming, that's something else entirely, and would reshape the look of the country, I think. It would also take decades to heal the soil after the constant in-pouring of synthetic fertilizers, etc. Presently, we have our methods totally out of whack, and that gives organic vegans a foothold in the moral aspect of the discussion. I don't think it humane to have beef cows live knee deep in their own manure in feed lots while eating the caloric equivalent of twinkies all day long. And I know that this specific condition is not part of anyone's agenda - people want beef and want it cheap and want it now. Well, this is how it is done. Turn a beef steer into a couch potato and put the Doritos under his nose all day.

And those who eat subsistence, largely single-grain diets like the quote above are much more common than we think, on a percentage basis worldwide. Try taking high-yield GMO corn out of everyone's diet (or very-much tweaked rice for that matter) and you would have widespread starvation where now there is only malnourishment. There are many cultures that subsist on tortillas and other cornmeal-based foods, and it is apparent in their productivity (I say this since I saw someone document it in Honduras). Add a little meat to that diet and things really take off. But it is not there, there is neither the time nor the money to make it happen. The other thing is that if you go vegetarian, you usually have to tweak the diet to a large extent to make sure that you're not missing anything. Try getting vitamin B12 from veggies. It can be done, but it takes some hoop-jumping. I just don't buy the 'biblicality' of vegetarianism in light of almost every book in the bible. Pots filled with meat in Egypt, Peter's vision of the clean and unclean, Christ at the last supper, etc. etc. As with all things, moderation, a balance in the diet, etc...

:rambling rant off:


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## One Little Nail (Dec 18, 2013)

VictorBravo said:


> I have little to add to what Claudiu and Andrew just said, except for a personal preference observation.
> 
> Whenever I hear of a "Biblical diet", I think of Abraham's feast in Genesis 18: Hearth-cakes and meat garnished with butter and milk.
> 
> Food fit for messengers of God and other special guests.



that sounds like a meal fit for a King! I new a guy from my teen years who in his early to mid twenty's became a Seventh
Dat Adventist who 20 years down the track encountered numerous health problems this guy suffered spine & back pain
with blown out discs & even his teeth began to chip all due to his vegetarianism his friend non SDA also was convinced 
to become a vegan & ended up with severe colitis & leaky gut syndrome. I consider Vegetarianism to be unsafe.

It is essential to get the Fat Soluble Vitamins A,D & K2 for healthy bone & teeth development,apart from Vitamin Tablets, these can only be found in the Body & Milk Fat & Offal of animals, A & D in The Milk Fat & Liver, K2 in all grass fed meat Fat , Liver & Milk Fat, particularly Goose Liver, Brie & Dutch Gouda cheeses, the milk that Abram served God was most likely
goat's milk which has a better digestibility than Cow's milk & less lactose, so eat & drink up the good things God has provided.


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## Claudiu (Dec 18, 2013)

One Little Nail said:


> VictorBravo said:
> 
> 
> > I have little to add to what Claudiu and Andrew just said, except for a personal preference observation.
> ...



Actually, some plants contain the antioxidant betacarotene which the body converts into vitamin A, vitamin D can be found in fortified soy and mushrooms, and vitamin K can be found in green, leafy vegetables. The issue is not with vegetarianism per se, but with people not doing enough research to ensure they are receiving the essential vitamins and minerals. By eating meat, people just have an easier time getting vitamins in larger doses and quickly. Vegetarians need to be a little more cautious since vegetables don't always have large doses of necessary vitamins.


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## Timobe (Dec 18, 2013)

Yep, i agree with you Claudiu. For being a vegetarian, you really have to know what your corps need to eat... And you need to have a lot of money too ! Because, for example, the tofu that they use to replace the eggs is more expensive than eggs.


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## Claudiu (Dec 18, 2013)

Timobe said:


> Yep, i agree with you Claudiu. For being a vegetarian, you really have to know what your corps need to eat... And you need to have a lot of money too ! Because, for example, the tofu that they use to replace the eggs is more expensive than eggs.



In general, I have found that to be the case. My aunt is vegan, and while I lived with her family, I noticed the difference in lifestyle in being vegetarian or vegan, expenses for food being one. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Peairtach (Dec 18, 2013)

If a person is a vegetarian because they believe that the world may be brought to an end by too many flatulent cows, I find that amusing 

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2


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## kvanlaan (Dec 18, 2013)

Richard, I have thought about that more than a few times. Interesting point: grass-fed cows produce significantly less methane than corn-fed.

By the way, tonight was our night out for Isaiah's birthday. We went to "Randy's Hamburgers" which features grass fed beef and fries fried in tallow. They also hand make all the condiments. I could not afford to eat that way often (the cost of a 'fast food' dinner for Joseph, Elizabeth, Isaiah and I was about the same as it would have been going to Swiss Chalet or Denny's for a sit-down dinner) but I must say that for eating burgers and fries, I do not have that greasy, foggy feeling that I would have gotten eating regular fast food. It was Isaiah's choice, and I am thankful for it. It was delicious.


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## Curt (Dec 19, 2013)

I have a doctor, currently, who espouses the eating of meat regularly - including the fat (though not in excess, of course). Bacon is a favorite. He has put me on to several books recommending a grain-free diet, in fact (by medical doctors). Vegetables are OK, though.


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## Hemustincrease (Dec 19, 2013)

I recently watched ‘forks over knives’ and was almost persuaded to become a vegan. 
Then I smelt a bacon butty.


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## THE W (Dec 20, 2013)

Eat what you want while minimizing the consumption of processed foods.


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## AThornquist (Dec 20, 2013)

Curt said:


> I have a doctor, currently, who espouses the eating of meat regularly - including the fat (though not in excess, of course). Bacon is a favorite. He has put me on to several books recommending a grain-free diet, in fact (by medical doctors). Vegetables are OK, though.



Sounds like the paleo diet, which I espouse too!


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## Andrew P.C. (Dec 22, 2013)

I'd like to point out a few things in this conversation. First, the Paleo Diet goes well with my workout (I do crossfit, but without going to the actually gym... it's too expensive and there truly is "cult" following). That is why I like this specific diet. Second, we were created to eat meat. I'd like to point out how animals (yes I know I'm not an animal but I'm looking at this from a scientific aspect for diets) that eat meat have a specific one stomach digestive system which is meant to break down meat. Herbivores have a multiple stomach digestive system specifically to digest grass or other rough plants. Also, there is a specific B vitamin only found in meat products (B-12) that is necessary for us to live. B-12 is a vitamin specific to your nervous system. Yes, you can find supplements for this now, but its synthetic and not natural.


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