# Called to the ministry?



## kalawine (Sep 4, 2008)

There is a guy who has begun preaching at a church near me and I'm very concerned about this situation. I know the guy has no education whatsoever. I also know that he is not very articulate. He is a friend of mine and I am concerned about how I should deal with this. All I know to do is stand back and pray and keep my mouth shut. I want to share with him what I have learned over the past few years but I know that he would probably just see it as an insult that I doubt his calling. 
You see, I was licensed to preach at an independent church and often preached in the pastor's place. Sometimes I would preach temporarily at a church that had no pastor. I was never ordained and certainly never educated. The church believed (and so did I back then) that a person who is called of God just knows it inside and then spends time in his Bible and in prayer and God just "gives" him his sermons. When I left that church (actually a little while before I left) and the Charismatic movement I began to do some serious research and prayer and actual study of theology and historical Christianity. This led me to an entirely different view of God's calling on people's lives. I went almost overnight from being "Brother Kevin" to sitting in the back of a church where I sat and listened. I believe that some education, at least self-education, is a must. (For a pastor that is) I believe that at least some subjects such as Church History, hermeneutics and some type of Systematic Theology should be studied by anyone that goes into the ministry. I'm not sure what all subjects should be mandatory but I am thankful that my pastor is educated in logic and philosophy as well. (One might get along without these I suppose) When I think of some of the things I said back during my preaching days I cringe. Though I know that we need repent for the same sin only once, I sometimes remember something false that I said back then and I repent all over again. 
I see my friend as a blind man tramping through a forest with a procession behind him as blind as he is. He is a "good-hearted" person, very, very nice. He is a "good old boy" whom everybody likes. I've always thought a lot of him myself. But I wonder how long the Lord will let this go on. Am I wrong? Am I judging him prematurely? I spoke doubt about this situation with some people I trust recently and they all looked at me as though I had blasphemed God Himself. Pastor Gene Cook of the Narrow Mind isn't highly educated and he holds no degrees. But he can discuss almost any issue with almost anyone. I believe that a person should get at least that much out of a pastor. Maybe they don't have to have a doctorate. But don't they at least need to have some idea of what they are talking about and not JUST be relying on what "the Lord has put on" their heart. Jesus have mercy on me if I am attacking someone that he actually wants to use in full time ministry!


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## Quickened (Sep 4, 2008)

As i was reading this i was thinking to myself that perhaps he may benefit from the story you told us about your own experience. Perhaps there is a way where you could bring it up in every day conversation so it doesnt appear like you are insulting/doubting him.

One of those things where it could cause the person to reflect deeply on their own situation.

I am no expert but this is what immediately came to mind.


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## kalawine (Sep 4, 2008)

Quickened said:


> As i was reading this i was thinking to myself that perhaps he may benefit from the story you told us about your own experience. Perhaps there is a way where you could bring it up in every day conversation so it doesnt appear like you are insulting/doubting him.
> 
> One of those things where it could cause the person to reflect deeply on their own situation.
> 
> I am no expert but this is what immediately came to mind.



You may be on to something there. I will consider you advice and continue to pray about it. Thanks!


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## Athaleyah (Sep 4, 2008)

I don't think that you are wrong, Kevin. I think that if you are going to be a pastor, you have a duty to the people to whom you are going to be a pastor to get an education. Teachers are held to a higher standard than the laity. Even the apostles were educated by the Holy Spirit before they began their ministries. 

And like you later he may discover reformed theology and deeply regret some of the things he taught. I would try to talk to him about your past experience and what you believe now. Maybe he will understand what a difference education can make.


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## kalawine (Sep 4, 2008)

Athaleyah said:


> I don't think that you are wrong, Kevin. I think that if you are going to be a pastor, you have a duty to the people to whom you are going to be a pastor to get an education. Teachers are held to a higher standard than the laity. Even the apostles were educated by the Holy Spirit before they began their ministries.
> 
> And like you later he may discover reformed theology and deeply regret some of the things he taught. I would try to talk to him about your past experience and what you believe now. Maybe he will understand what a difference education can make.



Thanks! It could be that God wants to use him this way and he might actually have plans for him to be educated.


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## rpeters (Sep 5, 2008)

God calls people in a variety of differnt ways. Sometime God calls you and you know, but that is merley the initial step and not the relization of this call. I see this in Moses situation God had told him to do something he messed up and spent 40 years as a shepard. I would say that happens and we often think God is calling them now. But is is merely the beginner of a longer process of realizing the fullfillment of the call. David comes to my mind in this situation. Sometime God calls people to preach and they know this happend with Jeriemiah and Isea and most prophets. This happen to Calvin, Luther, in fact most of the reformers. I say this is the norm. Then God does call other people who you would not expext those who have no education. I think we get so stuck on education and we are disobeying God. I am not saying that the person should not know the Scriptures he should before he enters into ministry and their should be a time of mentorship invovled in this. I Think Seminary is a great thing, but just do not know if it best for every situation. Some learn and get to be more solid through experience and happens on the people you would not expect. GUys like JOhn Bunyan we must be careful because it is a very educ ated man JOhn Owen who said he had an uneducated mans preching Power. Hope this helps. In Fact John Piper is getting help for His small groups on someone who has no divinity degree probably not even a bachelors CJ Mohany. The one who is called must be affermed and must be discerning. Hope this helps


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## jwithnell (Sep 5, 2008)

Another thought, if you have a chance to talk frankly with this fellow: many teach and believe that "full time Christian work" means preaching which is somehow a higher calling that "real" Christians should want to pursue. Perhaps if he sees that he can serve God in any honorable profession, he'd be willing to pursue a calling more in keeping with his gifts?


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## KMK (Sep 5, 2008)

Neither a formal education nor eloquence are, in and of themselves, prerequisites to preaching, so don't doubt him for those things alone. 

Paul lists criteria for eldership that have to do with a man's character. I think this is so because so much of a preachers effectiveness is tied in with how he lives his life. A preacher leads by example, so to speak.

Perhaps you can help this man most by encouraging him and praying for him in those things that make a good elder.


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## Kim G (Sep 5, 2008)

KMK said:


> Neither a formal education nor *eloquence* are, in and of themselves, prerequisites to preaching, so don't doubt him for those things alone.



Eloquence may not be a prerequisite, but being "apt to teach" is.

1 Tim 3:2--"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, *apt to teach*;"

2 Tim 2:24--"And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, *apt to teach,* patient,"


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## KMK (Sep 5, 2008)

Kim G said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> > Neither a formal education nor *eloquence* are, in and of themselves, prerequisites to preaching, so don't doubt him for those things alone.
> ...



Agreed.


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## GTMOPC (Sep 19, 2008)

Albert Martin has a five part series titled "A Call to the Ministry" on SermonAudio. It's full of relevant information that he would find useful. Perhaps coming from another source that you simply steered him towards would be less threatening and would allow him to heed the advice with an open heart and mind. You might direct him to the link below or burn him a copy.
"A Call to the Ministry"

Also, just my opinion, there is a time and place for sound biblical advice. To leave some issues like this one (perhaps) unaddressed may be negligent on your part given you have sound experience. Sometimes brotherly love has to hurt, maybe in the end you might just have to confront him, irrespective of the fact he might call you a hypocrite. But that's just my 2 cents, take it for what it's worth!


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## FenderPriest (Sep 19, 2008)

Perhaps you could put this in his hands: Am I Called? by Dave Harvey. You can download the .pdf for free there.


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## LawrenceU (Sep 19, 2008)

Ditto to Ken's post.

A formal education is not necessary. Otherwise Scripture would state it. But, a thorough knowledge of the Word is. But, that is not all either. There are articulate, well versed in Scripture unbelievers out there.


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## fredtgreco (Sep 19, 2008)

GMcClain20 said:


> Albert Martin has a five part series titled "A Call to the Ministry" on SermonAudio. It's full of relevant information that he would find useful. Perhaps coming from another source that you simply steered him towards would be less threatening and would allow him to heed the advice with an open heart and mind. You might direct him to the link below or burn him a copy.
> "A Call to the Ministry"



This is an excellent sermon series.


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## Seb (Sep 19, 2008)

KMK said:


> Kim G said:
> 
> 
> > KMK said:
> ...



While I agree with these points, I have to add the part that I think Kevin is struggling with what to do about:



> *Qualifications for Elders*
> 5 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you—
> 6 if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination.
> 7 For an overseer, as God’s steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain,
> ...


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## R. Scott Clark (Sep 19, 2008)

I think I'm called to be a surgeon. I've got my Xacto knife and a couple of steak knives. I've got my copy of Gray's Anatomy (the book not the TV show) on my right knee. I've got Web MD in front of me and I've watched at least a dozen episodes of House. 

So I think I'll line up local children and let the healing begin.

Or maybe not. 

Who should go to seminary?

Part 2


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## kalawine (Sep 19, 2008)

R. Scott Clark said:


> I think I'm called to be a surgeon. I've got my Xacto knife and a couple of steak knives. I've got my copy of Gray's Anatomy (the book not the TV show) on my right knee. I've got Web MD in front of me and I've watched at least a dozen episodes of House.
> 
> So I think I'll line up local children and let the healing begin.
> 
> ...



 Yes... I think we are on the same page


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## kalawine (Sep 19, 2008)

Seb said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> > Kim G said:
> ...



 You are exactly right


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## fredtgreco (Sep 19, 2008)

R. Scott Clark said:


> I think I'm called to be a surgeon. I've got my Xacto knife and a couple of steak knives. I've got my copy of Gray's Anatomy (the book not the TV show) on my right knee. I've got Web MD in front of me and I've watched at least a dozen episodes of House.
> 
> So I think I'll line up local children and let the healing begin.
> 
> ...



Never miss a chance to over-exaggerate, eh? Glad to see you at least dropped the pitiful lawyer analogy.


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## Pergamum (Sep 19, 2008)

R. Scott Clark said:


> I think I'm called to be a surgeon. I've got my Xacto knife and a couple of steak knives. I've got my copy of Gray's Anatomy (the book not the TV show) on my right knee. I've got Web MD in front of me and I've watched at least a dozen episodes of House.
> 
> So I think I'll line up local children and let the healing begin.
> 
> ...




Again, the surgeon analogy is a poor one.


A surgeon operates on a live person and physically tries to keep them alive by relying on the skill of his own hands.


A preacher operates on dead soul and trusts the Holy Spirit to make them alive by God's own strength.


A surgeon relies upon technical skills almost exclusively and could be an evil person and yet a skilled technician.

A preacher must BE before he can DO - and a great deal of his effectiveness is how he lives his life rather than technical ability on a Sunday morning.


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## R. Scott Clark (Sep 19, 2008)

> A surgeon operates on a live person and physically tries to keep them alive by relying on the skill of his own hands.
> 
> A preacher operates on dead soul and trusts the Holy Spirit to make them alive by God's own strength.
> 
> ...



Well, doesn't Reformed theology teach that God the Spirit "operates" on the sinner, but that he does so through the "ordinary means," namely through the preaching of Gospel through which faith is created and through the holy sacraments through which that faith is strengthened? (HC 65; Rom 10).

I don't know how many physicians you know but I've known at least a few physicians and surgeons who would take issue with your characterization of their work.

More to the point your argument seems to make some false assumptions. First, your argument seems to assume that there is no "ordinary" work for the minister to do. Yet the ministry, as I've practiced it since 1987, consists of serving and preaching the Word of God. That Word must be read. Reading is an ordinary skill as opposed to an extraordinary gift. The Word came to us in a given time and place and in three languages. The minister is called to learn to read the Scriptures historically, grammatically, literarily, and theologically. These are all skills acquired in school. The minister must know the history of redemption, the history and progress of revelation, the history of exegesis and dogma. He must know the system of truth. The ecclesiastical confessions, homiletics, and hermeneutics. These are learned in school. 

The internal call is a necessary condition for ministry but not a sufficient condition -- just as a potato is a necessary condition for a French Fry but not a sufficient condition.

Finally, your argument seems to assume the Donatist heresy, i.e., that the validity of a ministry is dependent upon the spirituality of the minister. The Donatists argued that the ministry of those ministers who had lapsed or become traitors (_traditores_) to the faith was no longer valid. 

The Western Church has always rejected that argument. The Apostle Paul says, in Phil 1:15-18, that he doesn't care about motives of the preacher but he does care about the message of the preacher. 

It's not that we want unregenerate ministers or unsanctified ministers, but if the validity of one's ministry is dependent upon one's sanctity then we are all doomed.


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## MW (Sep 19, 2008)

R. Scott Clark said:


> It's not that we want unregenerate ministers or unsanctified ministers, but if the validity of one's ministry is dependent upon one's sanctity then we are all doomed.



Well observed! It could also be added that "sanctity" in most people's conception is not usually the separatedness of the ministry in service to God, but some superficial standard which makes the minister more socially and culturally acceptable.


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## SolaGratia (Sep 19, 2008)

R. Scott Clark said:


> > A surgeon operates on a live person and physically tries to keep them alive by relying on the skill of his own hands.
> >
> > A preacher operates on dead soul and trusts the Holy Spirit to make them alive by God's own strength.
> >
> ...



I do not think that the above matters and is relevant to an independent Baptist or to Baptists in general. 

An analogy is an analogy!


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## kalawine (Sep 19, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> R. Scott Clark said:
> 
> 
> > I think I'm called to be a surgeon. I've got my Xacto knife and a couple of steak knives. I've got my copy of Gray's Anatomy (the book not the TV show) on my right knee. I've got Web MD in front of me and I've watched at least a dozen episodes of House.
> ...



Good points Perg. I hadn't looked at it that way.


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## kalawine (Sep 19, 2008)

armourbearer said:


> R. Scott Clark said:
> 
> 
> > It's not that we want unregenerate ministers or unsanctified ministers, but if the validity of one's ministry is dependent upon one's sanctity then we are all doomed.
> ...



Though I agree with what you are saying, I do wish that you could know the person that I am speaking of (the minister). He is full of zeal (good), a very moral man (great) but I believe that it is possible that my 15 year old knows more about doctrine than he does. These are very insulting things I'm saying but (1) he never goes online (and I've never mentioned his name) and (2) I don't mean them to be insults. They are simply facts. 
Because of the movement we were involved in (the Lord graciously allowed me to have a part in leading this man to Christ over 15 years ago) he thinks that he can just open the Bible and begin preaching. One example I can think of that almost horrifies me is that he knows nothing of total depravity. This is just the tip of the iceberg of what he doesn't know. Ignorance of TP really concerns me greatly but I will move on. 
I've heard him before and/or after singing a solo in church. He will give a very emotional plea to people to "be good" because "Jesus is coming soon." He has actually made those comments to me over the phone. One reason he feels compelled to preach is that "Jesus is coming soon" and we "really need to get the word out." If you knew the guy I believe you would see that this is a case of "zeal gone wild." 
Lord forgive me if I am misjudging a man who has been called to preach. I couldn't live with myself if I knew for certain that was a fact. But what really concerns me is that he is going to confuse a whole congregation of people who need someone who knows more about what he is talking about.


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## Pergamum (Sep 19, 2008)

A surgeon can be an evil man and still be skilled (ask abortion docs)....

A preacher can lack a lot of formal schooling and still be a skillfull preacher and called by God.


Reading and speaking or not technical skills - most people I know do these things. Those ordinary means by which God saves men is, indeed, mostly done in an ordinary package that if largely untechnical and simple...and is complemented and adorned with a beautiful life testimony.



And yes, God CAN use the preaching of even unsaved men to save others, but in most cases preachers who ARE good men are used more by the Holy Spirit to make Christ more attractive. Thus, the spirituality of the preacher does,indeed, bear a relation to his "calledness" and the blessings that God bestows on his ministry.

Paul himself tells us to follow his example and all preachers should be able to do the same - and this means his spirituality instead of his historical knowledge of the history of the Reformation or his parsing of Greek are of utmost importance.


I assert again, that the silly surgeon analogy does not fit. Plain speech and not eloquence are even praised by Paul.

I also assert that ministers ought to be holy men and that God works through holy men and even often shuts the door of blessing to unholy men in the ministry. Call this Donatist if you like.


God has used many simple men with good life testimonies - in fact, around the world this seems to be the norm.


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## MW (Sep 19, 2008)

kalawine said:


> Though I agree with what you are saying, I do wish that you could know the person that I am speaking of (the minister).



My comment wasn't intended to defend the person whom you are rightly concerned for. A part of true sanctity is "doctrine." 1 Tim. 6:3-5, "If any man teach otherwise, and *consent not to wholesome words*, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and *to the doctrine which is according to godliness*; he is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: *from such withdraw thyself*."


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## Athaleyah (Sep 19, 2008)

Can't you recognize his zeal and morality, but also emphasize what he doesn't know and try to show him the need to be more biblically informed? It isn't as if you seek to tear the man down, only to keep him from potentially misleading others. It doesn't sound like you could question his calling, just his timing in doing things now while he really isn't prepared.

I realize getting him to wait a few years to preach while getting an education might be difficult, since he thinks Christ's return in immanent. But maybe you could emphasize that teachers are held to a higher standard. 

*Jam 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness. *

Perhaps you can help him to understand how important informed preaching is. Maybe realizing he will be judged for what he teaches will make him more concerned about content.


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## MW (Sep 20, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> Plain speech and not eloquence are even praised by Paul.




If "eloquence" is defined as "the emission of the soul's energy through speech" (Dabney), I cannot see how the apostle could have rejected eloquence, not when it is brought into the service of the gospel. Commentators often observe the rhetorical craft of Paul's epistles. One concerned to preach the gospel to the best of his abilities should not neglect any means which may help him in the furtherance of that goal.


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## kalawine (Sep 20, 2008)

armourbearer said:


> kalawine said:
> 
> 
> > Though I agree with what you are saying, I do wish that you could know the person that I am speaking of (the minister).
> ...



Yes, I think we're in agreement. Please do pray for my friend. It could be that he truly is called and the Lord plans to lead him into maturity.


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## kalawine (Sep 20, 2008)

Athaleyah said:


> Can't you recognize his zeal and morality, but also emphasize what he doesn't know and try to show him the need to be more biblically informed? It isn't as if you seek to tear the man down, only to keep him from potentially misleading others. It doesn't sound like you could question his calling, just his timing in doing things now while he really isn't prepared.
> 
> I realize getting him to wait a few years to preach while getting an education might be difficult, since he thinks Christ's return in immanent. But maybe you could emphasize that teachers are held to a higher standard.
> 
> ...



I agree with all you are saying here. Please pray that if it the Lord's will, I will have the right words to speak to him.


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## SolaGratia (Sep 20, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> Paul himself tells us to follow his example and all preachers should be able to do the same - and this means his spirituality *instead of his historical knowledge of the history of the Reformation or his parsing of Greek *are of utmost importance.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Why then did Stephen and Paul used "historical knowledge" and Greek to preached as found in the book of Acts?


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## Pergamum (Sep 20, 2008)

Paul weds intelligent argument with a holy life and points to both his sound reasoning and his holy life as proofs of his calling and the faith. I.e. he appeals to his spirituality as proof of himself and Christ, and this is not Donatism.


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## Pergamum (Sep 20, 2008)

kalawine said:


> There is a guy who has begun preaching at a church near me and I'm very concerned about this situation. I know the guy has no education whatsoever. I also know that he is not very articulate. He is a friend of mine and I am concerned about how I should deal with this. All I know to do is stand back and pray and keep my mouth shut. I want to share with him what I have learned over the past few years but I know that he would probably just see it as an insult that I doubt his calling.
> You see, I was licensed to preach at an independent church and often preached in the pastor's place. Sometimes I would preach temporarily at a church that had no pastor. I was never ordained and certainly never educated. The church believed (and so did I back then) that a person who is called of God just knows it inside and then spends time in his Bible and in prayer and God just "gives" him his sermons. When I left that church (actually a little while before I left) and the Charismatic movement I began to do some serious research and prayer and actual study of theology and historical Christianity. This led me to an entirely different view of God's calling on people's lives. I went almost overnight from being "Brother Kevin" to sitting in the back of a church where I sat and listened. I believe that some education, at least self-education, is a must. (For a pastor that is) I believe that at least some subjects such as Church History, hermeneutics and some type of Systematic Theology should be studied by anyone that goes into the ministry. I'm not sure what all subjects should be mandatory but I am thankful that my pastor is educated in logic and philosophy as well. (One might get along without these I suppose) When I think of some of the things I said back during my preaching days I cringe. Though I know that we need repent for the same sin only once, I sometimes remember something false that I said back then and I repent all over again.
> I see my friend as a blind man tramping through a forest with a procession behind him as blind as he is. He is a "good-hearted" person, very, very nice. He is a "good old boy" whom everybody likes. I've always thought a lot of him myself. But I wonder how long the Lord will let this go on. Am I wrong? Am I judging him prematurely? I spoke doubt about this situation with some people I trust recently and they all looked at me as though I had blasphemed God Himself. Pastor Gene Cook of the Narrow Mind isn't highly educated and he holds no degrees. But he can discuss almost any issue with almost anyone. I believe that a person should get at least that much out of a pastor. Maybe they don't have to have a doctorate. But don't they at least need to have some idea of what they are talking about and not JUST be relying on what "the Lord has put on" their heart. Jesus have mercy on me if I am attacking someone that he actually wants to use in full time ministry!



If this man is truly called to preach than the larger corporate body of Christ will affirm that calling. And normally that person will desire to learn as much as possible so that they can be as able as possible. And if he is called to preach than he would have gifts that match that calling.


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## R. Scott Clark (Sep 20, 2008)

Fred,

I think over-exaggeration is called hyperbole and I think it occurs in Scripture. "Eye of a needle" comes to mind.

Yes, I always use hyperbole. There's never a time when I don't use hyperbole.




fredtgreco said:


> R. Scott Clark said:
> 
> 
> > I think I'm called to be a surgeon. I've got my Xacto knife and a couple of steak knives. I've got my copy of Gray's Anatomy (the book not the TV show) on my right knee. I've got Web MD in front of me and I've watched at least a dozen episodes of House.
> ...


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