# Anglican Primates Suspend the Episcopal Church (USA)



## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jan 14, 2016)

I will wait for our Anglican brothers to explain what this means, but it seems like kind of a big deal.

http://www.anglican.ink/article/pri...-church-full-participation-anglican-communion



> The primates of the Anglican Communion have suspended the Episcopal Church from full participation in the life and work of the Anglican Communion. On 14 January 2016 a motion was presented to the gathering of archbishops and moderators gathered in the crypt of Canterbury Cathedral that called for the Episcopal Church to be suspended for a period of three years.
> 
> A copy of the resolution seen by Anglican Ink calls for the Episcopal Church to lose its “vote” in meetings of pan-Anglican institutions and assemblies, but preserves its “voice”, demoting the church to observer status..


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## Vox Oculi (Jan 14, 2016)

Are they the same denomination? Forgive my ignorance, but I thought the Anglicans were one denom and the Episcopalians were another (or two, if you count the conservatives who broke off as being their own)?


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## Jake (Jan 14, 2016)

Vox Oculi said:


> Are they the same denomination? Forgive my ignorance, but I thought the Anglicans were one denom and the Episcopalians were another (or two, if you count the conservatives who broke off as being their own)?



There is a worldwide Anglican communion which includes the Protestant Episcopal Church (a.k.a., The Episcopal Church) in the US, Church of England, Anglican Church of Canada, etc. However, in a US context, more conservative groups like the ACNA tend to use the term Anglican, whereas the mainline church uses the term Episcopalian. However, there are also other groups that call themselves Episcopalian, like the Reformed Episcopal Church. But both Anglicans and Episcopalians hold to the 39 Articles, Book of Common Prayer, etc., at least on paper. 

However, the Protestant Episcopal Church is one of the most liberal, if not the most liberal, parts of the worldwide Anglican Communion, hence the trouble they are causing. Some parts of the Anglican Communion are even relatively Reformed, like the Diocese of Sydney.

(BTW: Not Anglican. Forgive any mistakes or misunderstandings!)


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## Vox Oculi (Jan 14, 2016)

I think that helps. That's a good example of why I find a knowledge of history so useful. I've pretty much only memorized the following:

PCUSA - liberal
PCA - conservative
OPC - more conservative

American Baptists - liberal
Southern Baptists - conservative _on paper_.
ed: IFB - probably the wackos I keep running into on Facebook, but not sure...

ELCA - liberal
Missouri Synod - conservative

And tentatively consider Methodism and Episcopalianism to be going down the tubes, but as just mentioned, that's where I lack intimate knowledge, even more so than the above simplifications.


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## Edward (Jan 14, 2016)

Vox Oculi said:


> PCUSA - liberal
> PCA - conservative
> OPC - more conservative



Bordering on off topic, but 

PCUSA - liberal
PCA - moderate
OPC - conservative


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## Edward (Jan 14, 2016)

I was waiting for something official so I could be sure I was commenting on the facts, not just rumors, but the communion as a whole has to make a choice between the millions of Anglicans in Africa, and the thousands in the US. In the past, US dollars have trumped poor Africans' bodies, but either the PECUSA gets pushed aside, or the Africans take a hike. There is no longer a middle ground. And the COE is in the middle, wanting to head down the road blazed by the Episcopalians, but being liberal enough to not want to cut ties to their Black brothers and sisters, while facing internal resistance from the few remaining conservative Bishops in England. 

If the reports are accurate, the Primates finally reached a point where they had to fish or cut bait, and could no longer fashion compromises. And, if accurate, it is good news.


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## Edward (Jan 14, 2016)

Here's the official statement. Not a full suspension. 

http://www.primates2016.org/articles/2016/01/14/statement-primates-2016/



> 7. It is our unanimous desire to walk together. However given the seriousness of these matters we formally acknowledge this distance by requiring that for a period of three years The Episcopal Church no longer represent us on ecumenical and interfaith bodies, should not be appointed or elected to an internal standing committee and that while participating in the internal bodies of the Anglican Communion, they will not take part in decision making on any issues pertaining to doctrine or polity.
> 
> 8. We have asked the Archbishop of Canterbury to appoint a Task Group to maintain conversation among ourselves with the intention of restoration of relationship, the rebuilding of mutual trust, healing the legacy of hurt, recognising the extent of our commonality and exploring our deep differences, ensuring they are held between us in the love and grace of Christ.



----

Looks like the Ugandan archbishop (a strong conservative) forced the issue by walking out. 

http://www.virtueonline.org/canterbury-ugandan-primate-leaves-primatial-meeting-early


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## Vox Oculi (Jan 14, 2016)

They'll undoubtedly still be seen as bad guys by liberal media.


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## Philip (Jan 14, 2016)

Edward said:


> Not a full suspension.



The time limit is so that TEC can respond at their next convention. A similar measure was passed at a Primates meeting in 2007, but ABC Rowan Williams (a liberal-leaning Anglo-Catholic) unilaterally vetoed it by inviting TEC bishops to Lambeth the next year, prompting the creation of the Global Anglican Future Conference (GAFCon), a conservative alternative which called for the creation of a new Anglican jurisdiction in North America.

Abp Welby is much more concerned with the global church than was Williams, and has a lot of contacts and sympathy in the African churches. My prediction is that he will be present and presiding at the next GAFCon, whereas at the last one in Nairobi, he preached at the Cathedral the Sunday before it started to claim plausible deniability while still making a statement (his sermon was quite good, BTW)


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## jwithnell (Jan 14, 2016)

I find it interesting that the African churches have largely been seeing the homosexual issue as a continuance of British empiricism on local values.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Jan 14, 2016)

Here is a prayer that was printed in my congregation's announcement sheet last Sabbath morning:

Almighty God to whom all will someday give account; instill we pray, within the hearts of all the Primates of the Anglican Communion, a holy fear that they may love you and your Word more than the approval of men; this we ask through our only mediator and head of your Church, Jesus Christ, who evermore lives and reigns with you and your Holy Spirit. Amen.


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## Parakaleo (Jan 14, 2016)

How do you pronounce "Primates" in such a way that others don't think you are talking about baboons? Does it help to use an English accent that makes the "i" really short? 

"Pr'mats".


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## Philip (Jan 14, 2016)

jwithnell said:


> I find it interesting that the African churches have largely been seeing the homosexual issue as a continuance of British empiricism on local values.



I think you mean imperialism. I doubt that the African churches are all that concerned about the legacy of David Hume and Bertrand Russell.



Parakaleo said:


> How do you pronounce "Primates" in such a way that others don't think you are talking about baboons? Does it help to use an English accent that makes the "i" really short?



"PRY-mut" is the correct pronunciation, though many also pronounce it like the simian animal classification.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Jan 14, 2016)

Parakaleo said:


> How do you pronounce "Primates" in such a way that others don't think you are talking about baboons? Does it help to use an English accent that makes the "i" really short?
> 
> "Pr'mats".



Funny you should mention that point. The minister of my congregation was explaining to people what was meant by Primates and he said "It does not refer to monkeys, but you might get more sense out of monkeys than some of these primates."

Reactions: Like 1


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## Reformed Covenanter (Jan 14, 2016)

Philip said:


> Originally Posted by jwithnell
> I find it interesting that the African churches have largely been seeing the homosexual issue as a continuance of British empiricism on local values.
> I think you mean imperialism. I doubt that the African churches are all that concerned about the legacy of David Hume and Bertrand Russell.


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## VictorBravo (Jan 14, 2016)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> Philip said:
> 
> 
> > I think you mean imperialism. I doubt that the African churches are all that concerned about the legacy of David Hume and Bertrand Russell.



X2....


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jan 14, 2016)

Here is the TEC response

http://episcopaldigitalnetwork.com/...all-for-temporary-episcopal-church-sanctions/


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## Vox Oculi (Jan 14, 2016)

I recommend to all at this present moment who have facebook, to take the pulse of the Episcopal community writ large by viewing the trending posts on social media. Lots of people proudly saying they think the pro ssm vote was the right thing. Their confidence is more worrying.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 14, 2016)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Here is the TEC response
> 
> http://episcopaldigitalnetwork.com/...all-for-temporary-episcopal-church-sanctions/


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## Edward (Jan 14, 2016)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Here is the TEC response



Looks like Curry found out that while playing the 'card' works in his predominately white denomination, it didn't carry weight with the African and Asian archbishops.


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## Vox Oculi (Jan 14, 2016)

How secular media is reporting it:

USA Today


> Jeffrey Walton, the Anglican program director at the Institute for Religion an Democracy in Washington, D.C., said the suspension of the Episcopal Church is significant, but does not, at this point, represent a schism, or irreparable rupture, within the Anglican Communion.
> 
> “This is not kicking the Episcopal Church out of the Anglican Communion, but it is saying is that by making these decisions for the past 12 or so years the Episcopal Church has created this distance and there will be consequences to those decisions.”
> 
> ...



Washington Post


> Last year, the Episcopal Church elected its first black presiding bishop, Michael Curry, who just began his new role. Curry told the primates that the statement calling for the sanction would be painful for many in the Episcopal Church to receive. In remarks he has made available to Episcopal News Service, Curry said the Episcopal Church has a “commitment to be an inclusive church.”
> 
> “I stand before you as a descendant of African slaves, stolen from their native land, enslaved in a bitter bondage, and then even after emancipation, segregated and excluded in church and society,” Curry told the primates. “And this conjures that up again, and brings pain.”





> Like other mainline denominations, the Episcopal Church has struggled to fill its pews in recent years. It has lost more than 20 percent of its members since it consecrated Robinson in 2003, and new statistics suggest that membership continues to fall, dropping 2.7 percent from 2013 to about 1.8 million U.S. members in 2014.


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## Vox Oculi (Jan 14, 2016)

Almost as quotable as the Diet of Worms....the African Primates....just one of those things that are born for history textbooks.


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## MW (Jan 14, 2016)

Having been baptised in the Anglican church in Sydney, and having learnt some rudiments of the faith there, it always saddens me to see this branch of the church demonstrating the basis of its union and communion in human consensus to the detriment of obeying the will of Christ.


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## ZackF (Jan 14, 2016)

Edward said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> > Here is the TEC response
> ...



That response was painful to read; utterly gospeless, hopeless and with no attempt at even the appearance at introspection for the state of his "church." I pray for Curry's soul as the man is clearly deluded. The comments are as telling. A lost leader with lost followers. What I fear is this won't trigger repentance but Pharisaism and a jump to Rome by TEC's few remaining conservative members.


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## Peairtach (Jan 14, 2016)

jwithnell said:


> I find it interesting that the African churches have largely been seeing the homosexual issue as a continuance of British empiricism on local values.



British imperialism.

This is "a card'' they might play, but these are no longer British imperialists, but British liberals and yellow Tories, imposing "values" that would be incomprehensible during the Empire, and even fifteen or twenty years ago.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2


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## Philip (Jan 14, 2016)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Here is the TEC response
> 
> http://episcopaldigitalnetwork.com/...all-for-temporary-episcopal-church-sanctions/



A lot of spin going on there, especially downplaying the role and significance of Abp Beach's presence at Cannterbury.



Peairtach said:


> This is "a card'' they might play, but these are no longer British imperialists, but British liberals and yellow Tories, imposing "values" that would be incomprehensible during the Empire, and even fifteen or twenty years ago.



The new proggressive whiggism is just as imperialistic as the old one. All over the web, I'm seeing the tired cliches about how Africa and Asia need to enter the modern world and how backward and barbaric these Christian leaders are.


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## jwithnell (Jan 14, 2016)

In my family that would be referred to as a Jeanism, whoops!


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## yeutter (Jan 14, 2016)

MW said:


> Having been baptised in the Anglican church in Sydney, and having learnt some rudiments of the faith there, it always saddens me to see this branch of the church demonstrating the basis of its union and communion in human consensus to the detriment of obeying the will of Christ.



The Archbishop of Uganda walked out early rather then involve himself in this sophistry.


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## Vox Oculi (Jan 15, 2016)

Maybe slightly off topic, but hey, this is meant to be educational after all:

My knowledge of the Whigs in US history is limited. I know they were supplanted by the formation of the Republican party, and much of its support came from former Whigs. Beyond that, I don't know exactly what a "progressive Whig" would be, and especially not if the term has meaning in British politics apart from whatever it means/meant in American history.

So, do feel free to elaborate and elucidate. 'Ready to learn.


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## yeutter (Jan 15, 2016)

Philip said:


> The new proggressive whiggism is just as imperialistic as the old one. All over the web, I'm seeing the tired cliches about how Africa and Asia need to enter the modern world and how backward and barbaric these Christian leaders are.



I take the term Whiggism to mean that innovation and liberty are to be prized above tradition for the sake of innovation and liberty.


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## Philip (Jan 15, 2016)

Vox Oculi said:


> My knowledge of the Whigs in US history is limited. I know they were supplanted by the formation of the Republican party, and much of its support came from former Whigs. Beyond that, I don't know exactly what a "progressive Whig" would be, and especially not if the term has meaning in British politics apart from whatever it means/meant in American history.



So the Whigs were a British political party (from which the American political party later took its name). In the 19th century, Whiggism was the name for a political and historical philosophy that believed that proggress was inevitable and that the enlightened (that is, upper-class liberal British people) had a duty to educate, tutor, and enlighten those unfortunate enough to be ignorant, whether ignorant Yorkshiremen, ignorant Boers, ignorant Zulus, or ignorant Indians and Chinese. Free trade and western institutions were clearly the best, so it was justified to impose them on other people at home and abroad. That's what I'm referring to.


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## Vox Oculi (Jan 15, 2016)

Philip said:


> Vox Oculi said:
> 
> 
> > My knowledge of the Whigs in US history is limited. I know they were supplanted by the formation of the Republican party, and much of its support came from former Whigs. Beyond that, I don't know exactly what a "progressive Whig" would be, and especially not if the term has meaning in British politics apart from whatever it means/meant in American history.
> ...



That sounds almost like the dictionary definition of liberal republicanism these days. The "moderates" are in favor of free enterprise and constitutional liberties, but, lacking a moral guidance, they are in a habit of simply adopting a less extreme version of whatever the far left is presently agitating for. They aren't true conservatives in that sense, they are moderately progressive. So I can see how the term 'Whig' even now may apply to portions of the American political climate as well.

Thanks for the simple explanation. How would you distinguish the term 'Whig' from 'Progressive' or is there no such distinction in British politics (i.e. the term 'progressive' is more of an American phenomenon?)


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## Philip (Jan 15, 2016)

Vox Oculi said:


> How would you distinguish the term 'Whig' from 'Progressive'



Whig is no longer a current political term so much as a mild perjorative, usually seen in contemporary academic disdain for "Whig history." Whiggism is generally no longer adhered to because it is (rightly) seen as a kind of cultural and historical snobbery. Think of someone who takes liberal positions while being personally stuffy and disdainful.

My use of the term was simply to point out that new proggressives are not all that different. They may pretend that imperialism is over, yet they cast judgment over the supposed backwardness of the majority world.


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## RamistThomist (Jan 15, 2016)

Vox Oculi said:


> They'll undoubtedly still be seen as bad guys by liberal media.



Liberal media knows they will be racist if they attack africans


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## Edward (Jan 15, 2016)

ReformedReidian said:


> Liberal media knows they will be racist if they attack africans



No, African American v. African, the African American will be favored by the media. Given the other issue involved, and the ECUSA is holding a high card and a trump card over the African bishops as far as the media is concerned.


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## Philip (Jan 15, 2016)

Edward said:


> ReformedReidian said:
> 
> 
> > Liberal media knows they will be racist if they attack africans
> ...



Yes and no. The way that the Western media has been spinning this, for a while, is that the African stance is the result of western backing and funding, assumed to be from those darn fundies in America. Thus the opposition to actual cultural imperialism (by western liberals) is being portrayed as being a product of western neo-colonialist fundies.

The reality is that African churches have become mostly self-sufficient in the last thirty years, and are now getting to the point where they can do without the western funding--mostly from TEC.


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## Vox Oculi (Jan 15, 2016)

I providentially encountered this today: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzUUKXCTuZg

Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby says he sometimes doubts God's existence. Neither does he have an answer to the problem of pain. And is apparently pretty irreverent in his private prayer life -- all by his own admission.


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## Reformed Covenanter (Jan 19, 2016)

Reformed Covenanter said:


> Parakaleo said:
> 
> 
> > How do you pronounce "Primates" in such a way that others don't think you are talking about baboons? Does it help to use an English accent that makes the "i" really short?
> ...



You can read my minister's comments on this issue here. It is good to sit under a man with the back-bone to fight against evil within his own denomination.

Peter Jensen (whom the Revd Winzer might know) spoke out on this issue when he was visiting Belfast in June (see here). Regretfully, I was in London at the time this meeting was going on, though I did meet Dr Jensen the Sabbath immediately after it took place.


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## Jake (Jan 19, 2016)

Philip said:


> Yes and no. The way that the Western media has been spinning this, for a while, is that the African stance is the result of western backing and funding, assumed to be from those darn fundies in America. Thus the opposition to actual cultural imperialism (by western liberals) is being portrayed as being a product of western neo-colonialist fundies.




That seems a bit ironic with movements like Anglican Mission in the Americas being initiated by an African bishop.


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## RamistThomist (Jan 19, 2016)

Vox Oculi said:


> I providentially encountered this today:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzUUKXCTuZg
> 
> Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby says he sometimes doubts God's existence. Neither does he have an answer to the problem of pain. And is apparently pretty irreverent in his private prayer life -- all by his own admission.



Have you ever seen the movies where one major character is straddling the fence? Then there is a plot turn where all the bad guys get arrested et al. He doesn't want to identify with the good guys yet he doesn't oppose the move. That's Welby


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## ZackF (Jan 19, 2016)

ReformedReidian said:


> Vox Oculi said:
> 
> 
> > I providentially encountered this today:
> ...



...or he doesn't want to identify with the bad guys publicly but privately oposses the move. Call me a cynic.


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## Philip (Jan 19, 2016)

Jake said:


> That seems a bit ironic with movements like Anglican Mission in the Americas being initiated by an African bishop.



Exactly. The Anglican realignment movement, of which AMiA and ACNA are major players, has largely been instigated and supported from Rwanda, Nigeria, Uganda, and Kenya.


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## RamistThomist (Jan 19, 2016)

ZackF said:


> ReformedReidian said:
> 
> 
> > Vox Oculi said:
> ...



Of course he opposes the move. But he's also smart enough to know he is currently out-matched. He probably also realizes that Luciferians like Schorri did so much bad PR damage to TEC that perhaps some chastisement is in order.


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## Philip (Jan 19, 2016)

ReformedReidian said:


> Of course he opposes the move.



That's debatable, actually. Abp Welby is on record opposing SSM politically and has strong relationships with the global south, which is part of why he was able to get them to the table in the first place. He has also tacitly endorsed Gafcon on numerous occasions. He's not as strident as one might hopw, but most of the accounts I've heard place him as more, not less, conservative than he lets on.

It's also helpful to remember that Abp Welby's first Protestant predecessor was similarly forced to act less stridently than he would have wished, due to the political climate.


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## Edward (Jan 19, 2016)

Philip said:


> Abp Welby's first Protestant predecessor



Not quite sure what you are trying to say there. Are you referring to Carey and using Protestant to exclude Williams because of his ties to the Druids? Or by first Protestant are you referring to Matthew Parker, or Cramner?


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## Philip (Jan 19, 2016)

Edward said:


> Not quite sure what you are trying to say there. Are you referring to Carey and using Protestant to exclude Williams because of his ties to the Druids? Or by first Protestant are you referring to Matthew Parker, or Cramner?



Referring to Abp Cranmer.


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