# Zechariah 14:1-4 literal or symbolic?



## Jerusalem Blade (Dec 28, 2013)

This is to take a close look at the beginning of the prophet Zechariah’s chapter 14, verses 1-4. This passage of Scripture, and the account of the two witnesses in Revelation 11, were the very last vestiges of premillennialism I let go of, and they were the hardest to let go of ! Why so hard? With the two witnesses it was the details of their prophetic prowess, which lent itself to the idea of their being supernaturally empowered actual individuals, after the manner of Moses and Elijah. Later, however, what changed my mind was the cogency of the _symbolic_ interpretation first showing how reasonable and hermeneutically sound that view was, and then its being within the context of so much other undeniable symbolism that the literal understanding just sort of drifted away like a shadow in increasing light. G.K. Beale’s lecture, Two Witnesses in Revelation (MP3 download) further illumines this take.

Moving on to the Zechariah passage; this is what it says (Authorized Version):
*Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.*

*For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.*

*Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.*

*And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. *(Zechariah 14:1-4)​ 
It should be clear that this is either to be taken literally or symbolically. For those who say the symbolic approach is inappropriate and without warrant, let me remind those reading that (as Beale makes clear in his above linked lecture) Scripture itself gives this warrant, especially with certain Biblical genres, such as apocalyptic and prophecy. Consider the understanding given Daniel of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream-vision in Daniel 2:31-45; the prophecy was entirely couched in symbolic imagery.

I used to take the Zechariah 14:1-4 vision literally: this was to be in the midst of the battle of Armageddon; the very heart of the people of God – Jerusalem in Palestine – would be invaded and taken, with great cruelty and violence, and then the Lord Jesus would return and wreak vengeance upon the violators of His people, and, after the massive cleanup (for the dead of all the unsaved among the nations were there), He would take the throne of David and rule in earthly Jerusalem for 1,000 years. There were a lot of holes in this view, such as, if in Rev 19 all those who were not Christ’s were destroyed (for the saved were already raptured out), who then did the Lord rule over, besides the elect, as at the end of the 1,000 years there would be a massive rebellion against Him and His people? Where did these wicked come from if all the wicked were killed?

But how could this vision be taken symbolically? And is that even appropriate? When I look at the previous chapters, like 12, what is that about? It looks like a mix of Jerusalem in the time of Jesus, and also at the end of the NT age, prior to His second coming, for on the one hand we see all those nations destroyed who come against Jerusalem (v 9), and on the other in v 10 ff. we see the LORD “pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son”, which appears both to be the case in Acts 2:36-37 upon Peter’s preaching after Pentecost (this unto repentance and life for the hearers), and then again – this time with regard to the whole world – in Revelation 1:7, “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him”, but now unto perdition of the ungodly.

So in chapter 12 we get a mix of Jerusalem after the Lord’s death, resurrection, and ascension, and _also_ the world’s shock and dismay at His second coming. (In the Amillennial view there may be multiple fulfillments of prophecy [cf the abomination of desolation in Dan 8:13; 12:11; Matt 24:15; 2 Thess 2:4].) In chapter 13:1 we get another picture: “In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.” Two questions: _when_ was this fountain opened? And is this literal or symbolic? First, it was opened upon the Lord’s crucifixion (“remember the hymn, “There is a fountain filled with blood, drawn from Immanuel’s veins”?) and ascension. Second, it wasn’t an actual fountain, but was only figuratively pictured so. Where there had been sprinklings for cleansings under Moses, now a copious fountain pouring forth the cleansing power of the blood! Vast multitudes now access the cleansing blood of our Saviour by faith!

So we have in Chapter 13 a symbolic fountain for Israel’s and our cleansing, and in 13:7 we have a symbolic sword smiting the Shepherd (cf Matt 26:31) so that the sheep are scattered. Could the Lord’s return to battle for His beleaguered people in chapter 14 also have a symbolic element? I think it is clear that the literal premil scenario after Armageddon of Jesus’ reigning in earthly Palestine for 1,000 actual years has serious (i.e. fatal) flaws, but let’s look at Zechariah on its own.

Will “all nations” actually come against earthly Jerusalem? I suppose UN troops representing them could do such a thing; but if we consider Jerusalem and Zion in their heavenly (spiritual) aspect we get another, broader picture. Consider Isaiah 2:2-4; this is considered by many Reformed expositors to picture the church – in which temple the Lord dwells – being the Jerusalem and Zion referred to, and to which the nations seek, and from which His law goes forth. Which law? The Law of God, of Messiah, King of New Israel and New Jerusalem.

If we say that it is earthly Jerusalem the LORD gathers all nations against to battle at the time of Armageddon then we must buy into the entire premil paradigm with all that that entails, and suffer the consequences of that choice: not least of which is a picture of the ascended Lord of Glory, Ruler of heaven and earth, come back down to a decaying earth to govern a motley population of saints both glorified and unglorified, and skulking pretenders to compliance with His will, but really enemies under cover waiting till the thousand years be over and they can rebel openly and seek to take the kingdom by force (the premil take on Revelation 20:7-9). Sort of anticlimactic, not to mention untenable!

But if we say it is _heavenly_ Jerusalem – whose manifestation on earth is the worldwide “camp of the saints . . . the beloved city” (Rev 20:9) – then we have an image of Armageddon that is in accord with all of Scripture. On this passage Hengstenberg says,
“It is very obvious that the whole account is figurative, and that the fundamental idea, the rescue of believers and the destruction of their enemies, is clothed in drapery borrowed from the local circumstances of Jerusalem.” Ernst Wilhelm Hengstenberg (EWH), _Christology of the Old Testament,_ Volume 4, T. & T. Clark, 1858. p. 125​ 
Here is a take on a similar Scriptural phenomena by G.K. Beale:
“How can we explain the apparent discrepancy that John saw a new heaven and a new earth in [Revelation] 22:1 and then only saw a garden-like city in the shape and structure of a temple in the remainder of the vision? . . .

“. . . it is probable that the vision of Rev. 21:2 interprets the initial vision of the new heaven and new earth, and that what John hears in verse 3 about the tabernacle is the interpretation of verses 1-2. Thus, the new heaven and new earth are interpretatively equated with the new Jerusalem and the eschatological tabernacle. *This pattern of visions interpreting one another or being interpreted by a following saying, prayer, or song occurs elsewhere in the book [of Revelation] and is a feature generally of apocalyptic genre*.” [Emphasis added] (p 616, Beale, _A New Testament Biblical Theology: The Unfolding of the Old Testament in the New_)​ 
Using this hermeneutic approach to apocalyptic passages in Scripture, are there other visions that will shed light on Zechariah 14:1-4? Keep that in mind as we proceed.

Let’s look at the wording, “I will gather all nations” (Zech 14:2); we have the same or similar words in many places that appear to speak of the same event.
*Rev 16:13, 14, 16:* ‘And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, *to gather them to the battle* of that great day of God Almighty. . . . And *he gathered them* together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon’

*Rev 19:19:* “And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, *gathered together to make war* against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.”

*Rev 20:7, 8: *And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to *gather them together to battle*: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 

*Isaiah 66:16, 18:* For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. . . For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that *I will gather all nations and tongues*; and they shall come, and see my glory.

*Joel 3:2, 11, 12, 14-16:* *I will also gather all nations*, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land . . . Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, *and gather yourselves together* round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD. Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about . . . Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. 

*Zephaniah 3:8:* Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the Lord, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for *my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms*, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.​ 
All of these appear to be referring to the same event, the gathering of the nations to do battle against the people of God – and thus against God Himself – at the end of time, in what is called Armageddon (Rev 16:16), or the battle of Gog and Magog (Rev 19:17 ff / Ezek 39:1,6,11,*17* ff; Rev 20:8). Now is it just to be a local battle in Jerusalem and vicinity, or a worldwide battle which is the final battle before the Day of Judgment, and the eternal state?

According to the New Testament, and particularly Revelation, it is the final battle against the saints worldwide. Are we going to interpret the visions of the New Testament by visions of the Old “clothed in imagery taken from the local relations of Jerusalem” (EWH), or will we see these latter as interpreted by the same events revealed in the brighter light given by Christ to His apostles? Ezekiel’s Gog and Magog’s attack against Israel has never been fulfilled at any point in OT history, yet John in Rev 20 shows it to be fulfilled in a global campaign against the saints; and in Rev 19:17 ff the call to the fowls of heaven to the “supper of the great God” comprised of the slain of the attackers against Him and His people is the very same call God gave to the fowls (and beasts) in Ezek 39:19 to feast on the slain of Gog and Magog in that vision. These are _universal_ attempts to destroy the people of God, though in the OT sometimes (certainly not always) in prophecy the designations Jerusalem, Israel, or Zion refer to the NT people of God. In the OT the destruction of Israel, Judah or Jerusalem then would have been the complete destruction of the people of God.

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Speaking of the opening verses of chapter 14, H.C. Leupold (_Exposition of Zechariah_; Baker, 1965) says,
Nor is this a strictly literal historic account. The fact that “the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city” allows for a substantial remnant to remain in the city of God in spite of the most bitter ravages on the part of the foe. That is always the situation in the church.

This has been recorded chiefly for the purpose of preparing for the marvelous story of the Lord’s deliverance, v. 3-5. The Lord now “goes forth” (_yatsa’_). The parallel statement in Mic. 1:3 suggests that this going forth is from heaven itself. The reference is again not to any particular instance when an individual deliverance was wrought for His own. One scene pictures the eternal truth that the Lord is continually going forth to deliver His own when their plight seems desperate. Yet this does not exclude the thought that there will ultimately be a day of final victory at the end of time. . . (260, 261)

At this point God’s appearing on the scene is described, but in terms that allow for any single deliverance that He may work for the good of His own as well as for His final coming. In fact, the latter is particularly under consideration, for the next section describes conditions in the final consummation. (263)​ 
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And here is G.K. Beale in his, _New International Greek Testament Commentary: Revelation_, remarking on God gathering His enemies for the final showdown:
The purpose of the deception [of the world’s kings by the frogs / demons of Rev 16:14] is “to gather them together for the war of the great day of God Almighty.” The same expression occurs in chs. 19 and 20, where it refers respectively to the beast and the dragon gathering kings together to fight against Christ at his final coming:

*19:19* “the kings of the earth . . . gathered together to make [the] war” 

*20:8* “the nations . . . of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war”

*16:14* “the kings of the whole inhabited earth . . . to gather them together for the war”

The reference here [16:14] is probably the same as in chs. 19 and 20: the confrontation between the forces of the beast and Christ at the end of the age. These three references to the war are based on OT prophecy, especially from Zechariah 12–14 and possibly Zephaniah 3, which predict that God will gather the nations together in Israel for the final war of history (see further below). (834, 835)

The place where the last battle is to be fought is called “Armageddon.” Like the place names “Babylon” and “Euphrates,” so “Armageddon” does not refer to a specific geographical locale, but the whole world. The battles in Israel associated with Meggido [sic] and the nearby mountain become a typological symbol of the last battle against the saints and Christ, which occurs throughout the earth.

That “Armageddon” is not literal is evident from the observation that OT prophecies of the final battle of history place it, without exception, in the immediate vicinity of Jerusalem and Mount Zion or its surrounding mountains (see on v 14 for OT references). But the plain of Megiddo is about a two days’ walk north of Jerusalem. (838)​ 
Let me close for now with some sound words spoken by Puritan Sailor (Patrick S.) here some years ago:
“First rule of interpretation is to consider the original audience and intent of the author. The prophecies were uttered in terms that the people of that day could understand. They were trying to describe a greater reality to come using the vocabulary available to them.”
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## MW (Dec 29, 2013)

Robertson helpfully points out that "cataclysmic" seems a more suitable description for this type of passage than "apocalyptic."

This is one of those passages which demonstrates that the "day of the Lord" (or "day to the Lord") cannot be confined to Christ's first coming, second coming, or both, but must refer to the whole "messianic era" from the first coming to the second coming.

Hengstenberg writes,



> When it is affirmed that "there is not the slightest trace in chap. xii. of the splendid prospects which are here presented to the people of the Lord," the fact is overlooked that it is not a mere recapitulation of chap. xii. that we have before us, but, as a matter of course, an expansion and continuation also. In chap. xii. we find nothing but the victory over the nations; here, on the other hand, we have the glorification of Jerusalem (ver. 10), the healing waters which issue from Jerusalem (ver. 8), the reception of the heathen into the kingdom of God, the dominion of the Lord over the whole earth, and so forth. The result at which we arrive, therefore, is that the prophecy does not relate exclusively to the termination of the Church's history, but to the whole of the Messianic era from its commencement till its close.



It is interesting to observe that "the battle" of Revelation never actually takes place.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Dec 29, 2013)

Yes, Matthew, I think your take on Hengstenberg is probably right – I noticed that both he and Charles Wright, and H.C. Leupold tend to the idealist (your “consistent idealist”) view per William Milligan, although as noted above, Leupold does stray from that when he allows Zech 14 to show “His final coming. . . _n fact. . . is particularly under consideration”. I used him and Hengstenberg to demonstrate the figurative or symbolic understanding as opposed to the literal.

I’ll research a little more to see if your thought on Hengstenberg – “It is interesting to observe that ‘the battle’ of Revelation never actually takes place” – holds throughout his work on OT Christology and Messianic prediction.

I think it is because of your – and Milligan’s – “pure” idealism that idealism generally is in such disrepute today, and eschewed by contemporary amil scholars as simply the other side of the “consistently literal” coin of the Dispensationalists. I – and most – amillennialists today prefer the “modified idealist” or “eclectic” view of Beale, Poythress, Riddlebarger, Waldron, et al.

I think the consistent idealist view rightly has been thought of as uselessly (merely) inspirational and not prophetic at all, contra the purpose of the revelation given John. I do like the word “cataclysmic” for this aspect of the apocalyptic genre, for that is what the battle of Armageddon is indeed.

The more “pure” idealist cloud you cast over this crucial topic the more desire I have to “unmask” / uncover that which hinders seeing those things which are, and are to come._


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## MW (Dec 29, 2013)

Steve, I don't care to enter into another defence of the consistent idealist perspective. It is good to explore the Old Testament roots of New Testament eschatology. I trust this will lead to a greater appreciation for apostolic Messianic interpretation, which takes away the impetus for an event-driven heremeneutic. Blessings!


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## Peairtach (Dec 29, 2013)

I think Zechariah 14 may well be speaking of the transition from the Old Testament Jerusalem to the New Testament Jerusalem ( the NT Church) and Christ's spiritual warfare in this NT age, when the Gospel light has dawned but has not reached its zenith. The end of the Old dispensation was of earthquake like proportions for God's people but Christ provided a way of escape and survival both for those believers in Jerusalem, and for a Church, generally, whose Jewish and Roman enemies were determined to strangle at birth, until she reached a somewhat more broad place.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2


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## Jerusalem Blade (Dec 30, 2013)

armourbearer said:


> Steve, I don't care to enter into another defence of the consistent idealist perspective.


 
Good thing.




armourbearer said:


> It is good to explore the Old Testament roots of New Testament eschatology. I trust this will lead to a greater appreciation for apostolic Messianic interpretation, which takes away the impetus for an event-driven hermeneutic.


 
The first sentence I agree with. The first half of the second sentence I also agree with. The last half of the second sentence, however, is odd.

Think about it (“consistent idealists” are exempt from this, as the idealist foggy cloud is not conducive to clear thinking) – what kind of prophecy is it that is not aimed at an event? Granted, there is a usage of the prophetic which is not _fore_-telling but _forth_-telling, i.e., declaring the will of God, as in exposing sin, demanding repentance, giving instructions, and so on, but I am referring to predictive prophecy.

Sometimes prophecy takes the shape of symbolic imagery, which is much evident in the book of Daniel, in parts of Ezekiel, and, for our present purposes, in Zechariah. Some of both Daniel’s and Ezekiel’s prophecies find realization – that is, fulfillment – in the book of Revelation, as do some of Zechariah's.

The view that Revelation is but “an inspirational drama of poetic symbols” without reference to any historical events I think has been sufficiently debunked here: http://www.puritanboard.com/f46/rev...ma-poetic-symbols-multi-genre-prophecy-76822/ . 

To deny that there will be a climactic showdown between the forces of evil and the House of Light at the end of the age is to deny a lot of prophecy and to relegate it to merely “images of the dynamics in the struggle between good and evil” throughout the age. Of course this struggle goes on throughout the age, but Scripture plainly teaches it will come to a head.

It is not for nothing Revelation has been called “the climax of prophecy”! All that pertains to the resounding victory of Christ over His enemies / His people’s enemies is brought to conclusion in the Apocalypse. It also shows clearly the dangers the NT church will face, and instructions on how she is to meet these challenges: she is to follow in the footsteps of her King, remaining separate from seduction to worldliness and false teaching, staying close to God, bearing fearless witness to the risen Christ and His kingdom, and not loving their own lives even unto the death.

It is true there are very few historical events referred to in the book; of course we have a few of them in the seven letters to the churches of Rev chapters 2 and 3, and then there is the matter of Babylon at time’s end (of which the Roman “Babylon” was a precursor and type), signifiers which identify and locate her in place and time; then there is her utter destruction at the hands of a coalition of nations, which coalition then turns on the church worldwide (which is equal to turning on the church’s God) and seeks to destroy it, which provokes what is termed Armageddon – when the Lord of His beleaguered and suffering people appears in might and glory, to the utter consternation of the followers of the beast, for they see they are undone, eternally so.

If we are near (even if not at) the end times, if we can see dynamics and developments heading in certain directions, we might prepare ourselves (and those in our care) mentally and spiritually to face things that are to come.

Alas, it seems America, as well the United Kingdom and the West generally, have been at peace a long time and are used to it, thinking things will go on so a long time, and are complacent. This is a dangerous state to be in. I aim to address it.


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## MW (Dec 30, 2013)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> To deny that there will be a climactic showdown between the forces of evil and the House of Light at the end of the age is to deny a lot of prophecy and to relegate it to merely “images of the dynamics in the struggle between good and evil” throughout the age. Of course this struggle goes on throughout the age, but Scripture plainly teaches it will come to a head.



Christ is the head of all principality and power, and we are complete in Him. The aim of Revelation is not to make us concerned over an end time battle, but to minister assurance and rest in Christ Who frustrates the purposes of the Devil. Our Lord does not give the Devil the satisfaction of meeting with the saints on the field of battle, but vanquishes the foe Himself. The modified view only succeeds in modifying the victory of Christ over Satan so as to require a reinterpretation of Christ's redemptive work.

The modified view is nothing more than a concession to the historicist view. If the Devil goes into the lake of fire at a later time to the beast and false prophet, and the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire in Rev. 19, the case for recapitulation in chapter 20 is demolished.

In relation to Old Testament prophecy, the modified view simply assumes the results of the "Messianic era" whereas New Testament eschatology explains the way these results are intricately connected with the coming of the kingdom of God in the person of Messiah. Because the modified view fails to see the focus of NT eschatology it looks for other fulfilments of an historicist nature.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Jan 1, 2014)

Matthew, you said,



armourbearer said:


> The aim of Revelation is not to make us concerned over an end time battle


 
When you say “concerned”, if you mean anxious or worrying or fearful, I agree. If you mean, “thinking carefully on a matter of interest or importance”, I do not agree. 

I know part of your view is that, although there will be persecutions, and setbacks on the church’s effectiveness in ministering the gospel to the world, eventually the nations will heed the gospel and become “Christianized” (a word I do not like). I think this a dangerous view.

The aim of Revelation is to 1) assure us of God’s protection and love of us, 2) His sovereign control over *all* the evil forces in the world, so that nothing can have any power over us “except it were given ... from above” (John 19:11), 3) warning us to heed His commands to live godly and to bear witness to His gospel, and to 4) overcome whatever suffering is our lot, being “faithful unto death” (Rev 2:10).

Zechariah 14:1-4 is prophecy dressed in the apparel of type, and of which the antitype is the multiplely attested final battle in Revelation, which coming _event_ you deny and would relegate to a mere symbolic dynamic of persecution defeated by God’s power throughout the age.

I feel very strongly that this idealist take and teaching concerning Revelation is a false teaching in that it tends to lull the saints from that vigilance and mental preparedness needful to endure suffering well. It eviscerates the heart of watchfulness and fortitude of mind conducive to patient endurance.

How does it do this? By eviscerating the visions given to John by God of their immediate application to situations the churches have found themselves in up through the centuries. You will probably say that the idealist view *does* promote application to said situations, and I would in part agree with that; *however*, when it comes to the _end_ of the age, I believe there are indicators that warn us it is near and to brace ourselves. You deny the teaching that persecution will get exponentially worse toward the end.

William Hendriksen, discussing Rev 20:7-10, writes,
“. . . the era during which the church as a mighty missionary organization shall be able to spread the gospel everywhere is not going to last forever; not even until the moment of Christ’s second coming. Observe what is happening in certain countries even today. *Are certain regions of this earth already entering Satan’s little season?*” [emphasis added] (pp 194-195)​ 
Please note that he wrote this around 1962! Were he writing today he would no doubt express himself more strongly. We are being slaughtered in so many countries around the globe, and the “civilized” West is slowly gearing up for a massive “cleansing” of the “problem of Christians” and their “witness” – which many can see, though it is slow coming.

If you will hound me every time I present the classic contemporary amil view, so be it, but please know I am up to fending you off all along the way if I must. I believe it is of the Lord that I publish what I see, for the health and preparedness of the church – my loved ones!

I like this quote: “Vigilance requires hardened discipline that can be born only from an immediate sense of threat; without it, constant attention is difficult to maintain.” (Matthew Brzezinski, _Fortress America: On the Front Lines of Homeland Security—An Inside Look at the Coming Surveillance State_, Bantam 2004.) This is certainly applicable to the Christian, particularly in our day.

The antithesis requires we recognize the world is God’s mortal enemy, and thus ours, and that it hates us as it hates Him, and will seek to do to us as it did to Him. We foolishly dream if we think “this present evil age” (Gal 1:4) will become benign and friendly to God this side of Christ’s return on the Day of Vengeance.

Those recognized scholars who hold your “consistent idealist” view today could likely be counted on one hand (maybe only a couple or three fingers). The contemporary amil view is represented in this list below. Not that numbers make a thing true, but the scholarly labors and fruit of these men is remarkable.

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*Bibliography for Revelation and Amil:*

G.K. Beale, _New International Greek Testament Commentary: Revelation_; _The IVP New Testament Commentary Series: 1-2 Thessalonians_; _Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament_; _Handbook on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament: Exegesis and Interpretation_; and _The Use of Daniel in Jewish Apocalyptic Literature and in the Revelation of St. John_
Dennis E. Johnson, _Triumph of the Lamb: A Commentary on Revelation_
Cornelis P. Venema, _The Promise of the Future_
William Hendriksen, _More Than Conquerors_; and _Three Lectures on the Book of Revelation_
Michael Wilcock, _The Message of Revelation_
Richard Bauckham, _The Climax of Prophecy_; and _The Theology of the Book of Revelation_
Kim Riddlebarger, _The Man of Sin: Uncovering the Truth About the Antichrist_; and, _A Case for Amillennialism: Understanding the End Times_
David J. Engelsma, _Christ’s Spiritual Kingdom: A Defense of _Reformed_ Amillennialism _(A shortened online version); and _The Messianic Kingdom and Civil Government_ (article)
Stephen S. Smalley, _The Revelation To John: A Commentary on the Greek Text of the Apocalypse_
Vern Poythress, _The Returning King: A Guide to the Book of Revelation_
R.C.H. Lenski, _The Interpretation of St. John’s Revelation_
Stuart Olyott, _Dare to Stand Alone: Daniel Simply Explained_
Samuel E. Waldron, _The End Times Made Simple_
Anthony Hoekema, _The Bible and the Future_
Simon J. Kistemaker, _New Testament Commentary: Revelation_
Arturo Azurdia, _An Exposition of the Book of Revelation (81 MP3 sermons)_
William E. Cox, _Amillennialism Today_
Leon Morris, _The Book of Revelation (Revised Edition)_
G.B. Caird, _The Revelation of Saint John_
Richard Bewes, _The Lamb Wins_
Herman Hoeksema, _Behold, He Cometh!_ [with some reservations]
Sam Storms, _Kingdom Come: The Amillennial Alternative _(he was premil, and now uses his old knowledge to expose its errors)
Ian Boxall, _The Revelation of Saint John

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_This photo pertains to the church in Pakistan, but it is applicable to _many_ other nations!


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## MW (Jan 1, 2014)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> I feel very strongly that this idealist take and teaching concerning Revelation is a false teaching in that it tends to lull the saints from that vigilance and mental preparedness needful to endure suffering well. It eviscerates the heart of watchfulness and fortitude of mind conducive to patient endurance.



The modified idealist view detracts from the finished work of Christ in binding the strong man and casting out the prince of the world. As I have made this case in other threads I do not need to repeat it here. I simply state it to show that the problems with the modified view lie closer to the substance of the faith and should raise more concern.



Jerusalem Blade said:


> We are being slaughtered in so many countries around the globe, and the “civilized” West is slowly gearing up for a massive “cleansing” of the “problem of Christians” and their “witness” – which many can see, though it is slow coming.



Fear-mongering is a typical fundamentalist tactic which a man of common sense can discern without much difficulty. The gospel of salvation overcomes such fears with the glorious message that Christ is exalted over all principalities and powers. The Apocalypse encourages witness to the nations in the face of opposition.



Jerusalem Blade said:


> The antithesis requires we recognize the world is God’s mortal enemy, and thus ours, and that it hates us as it hates Him, and will seek to do to us as it did to Him.



The world is God's world; God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Jan 1, 2014)

As long as the enemies of Christ are not finally and forever put under His feet and the feet of His representatives here in this world, His “finished work” is not yet _applied_ to the realpolitik of our lives. Thus it is written,
Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him (Heb 2:8).​ 
and
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all (1 Cor 15:24-28).​ 
In the already/not yet phase of our lives in this age, you seem to be skipping the not yet. I do not deny the finished work of Christ; what I say is it has not yet been realized in the realpolitik, in our reality, seeing as our blood still soaks the ground, and our cries go up to the throne, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?” (Rev 6:10)

Fear-mongering? “A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished” (Prov 22:3). Do you hear fear in my voice and heart? Rather this is what I say,
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord (Rom 8:35-39).​ 
We do not prepare our people to die well. Thus they do not live well. Having taught my African brothers from the South Sudan – the very Dinka and Nuer tribes that are now on the brink of civil war in that land – that they must be ready to die in their testimony if they are to live worthy of Christ, some of them _are_ ready to be peacemakers among their people. Or my Iranian or Egyptian brothers – many of whom have had to return to those lands – that they too must be ready to face death bravely and wisely. This is not fear-mongering, but sound pastoral care for those entering the lions’ den, or the fiery furnace.

And if there is indeed trouble heading our way, what is the watchman on the wall to do, get down from the tower and go chill in the entertainment room, eat and drink, go to church, at ease in Zion? 

You do not hear fear-mongering from me, but courage, and glorying in the Captain of our host, the Lord God Almighty.

Indeed this is God’s world. Even though the god of this world (2 Cor 4:4) rages and blasphemes, we “shine as lights in the world; Holding forth the word of life” to the lost and perishing. For we ourselves were once enemies of God and His people, but now, as the apostle Paul, we seek to make our killers our brethren and God’s children.

We do not differ much in these sort of things, Matthew – only in how we see.


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## MW (Jan 1, 2014)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Do you hear fear in my voice and heart? Rather this is what I say,
> Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
> 
> Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord (Rom 8:35-39).​



I can't hear your voice, Steve. I can only read your words according to their plain import. Your previous words were seeking to motivate by means of fear, but God has not given us such a spirit. The spirit of power, of love, and of a sound mind comes out very clearly in your response from Romans 8. By means of this spirit I am certain we have nothing to fear.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Jan 2, 2014)

Matthew, you said,



armourbearer said:


> Your previous words were seeking to motivate by means of fear



There is a big difference between sounding an alarm of impending danger – that we may be prepared for trouble – and motivating by fear. And even if an element of fear enters in when we perceive the danger, it is written, "What time I am afraid, I will trust in thee" (Ps 56:3). 

Please do not think to discern my motives by what some people may feel upon the awareness of impending danger; others, receiving such warning, may find welling in their hearts courage and resolve.

What are watchmen on the wall to do when they are given to see trouble coming? Of course their alarms must be mixed with that which instills courage and trust in the soul.


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## MW (Jan 2, 2014)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Please do not think to discern my motives by what some people may feel upon the awareness of impending danger; others, receiving such warning, may find welling in their hearts courage and resolve.



Steve, I took your words at face value, without reading any motive into them. You stated,



> "the “civilized” West is slowly gearing up for a massive “cleansing” of the “problem of Christians” and their “witness”



That is a statement on things to come, and one which has already determined that the power of God will not intervene to alter the situation.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Jan 3, 2014)

Matthew, you quoted from my saying in post #8,
We are being slaughtered in so many countries around the globe, and the “civilized” West is slowly gearing up for a massive “cleansing” of the “problem of Christians” and their “witness” – which many can see, though it is slow coming.​ 
and then said “Fear-mongering is a typical fundamentalist tactic”, the implication (as I see it) being I was doing this, and as though my thoughts were utterly without any substance or basis. 

You also said of my view, “That is a statement on things to come, and *one which has already determined that the power of God will not intervene to alter the situation*.” [emphasis added]

Let’s look at that, for that’s a theme you bring up regularly when I present the consensus amil view that we shall not only suffer throughout the NT church age, but it will increase greatly toward the end. The reason I say (and your words are accurate) “the power of God will not intervene” – not regularly, at any rate – is that a) Scripture is clear this is an evil age, and the world will hate us and seek to kill us (Gal 1:4; 1 John 5:19; Matt 24:9,10; John 15:18,19; 16:1,2), and b) it is happening *now*. It is what happens when we bear witness to the Law of God and the Gospel of Christ to an ungodly age; yes, the elect are moved to repentance, but the reprobate rage.

Looking at the plight of Christians half a century ago William Hendriksen in _More Than Conquerors_ asked, “Observe what is happening in certain countries even today. *Are certain regions of this earth already entering Satan’s little season?*” [emphasis added] (p 95)

Let me put it bluntly: Is the power of God intervening to stop the slaughter of His people in Muslim and Hindu countries? If not, then why not? We can see (if we look) He is not stopping it. So why not? He has said to one suffering church, “be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life” (Rev 2:10). Of the suffering church worldwide, the Spirit has said, “And they overcame him [the Devil] by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death” (Rev 12:11). Peter cautions us,
“Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy” (1 Pet 4:12,13).​
Regarding a reason for this suffering God allows, Peter says it is connected with our salvation:
“Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls” (1 Pet 1:6-9)​
Talking about the Christian and fear. Right now in Afghanistan and Pakistan and Egypt and Syria our sisters in Christ struggle against overwhelming fear of their homes being invaded by militant Islamists and they kidnapped, raped, sometimes forced to marry their abductors (then greatly pressured to convert), or held for ransom, or just kept as slaves, or maybe just executed. They don’t want to leave their homes for fear of these things, even in the daylight (those whose homes haven’t been destroyed). Their husbands, fathers, brothers, likewise struggle against fear for them and these things. I like to stay in touch with the conditions of the church in various areas of persecution around the world, and pray for them. It is a great struggle not to be overcome by fear for these godly people. I won’t even talk of North Korea, or other countries such as India.

In November as I read of 10-year-old Jessi, returning home from her Bible study in a suburb of Cairo and was shot down in the street by Islamist militants, and the anguish of her father for his only child, all I could do was pray, with tears, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”, from Revelation 6:10.

Although not pastoring now, I continue to warn of danger which may not be far off so we may prepare our hearts and minds, after the manner of Peter’s exhortation, “Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind” (1 Pet 4:1). This is not fear-mongering but wise preparation of the heart. I don’t know of down under, but in America and in the UK many Christians have gotten soft, and fairly worldly, and are not ready for hard times, while in the countries above mentioned hard times come with the territory if one names Christ.

I seek to bring courage, faith, and the spiritual wherewithal to endure suffering so that fear may not overcome the souls of His people. But if I failed to warn of dangers to come – that our souls must prepare for – I would be a sorry watchman on the wall.

God has a purpose in allowing His beloved people to suffer. This is not an eschatological theorem, but a thing happening now. An eschatology which denies the reality of God allowing the church to suffer, and increasingly so as the end apparently draws near, I have little use for. It is not Biblical.


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## MW (Jan 3, 2014)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> a) Scripture is clear this is an evil age, and the world will hate us and seek to kill us (Gal 1:4; 1 John 5:19; Matt 24:9,10; John 15:18,19; 16:1,2), and b) it is happening *now*. It is what happens when we bear witness to the Law of God and the Gospel of Christ to an ungodly age; yes, the elect are moved to repentance, but the reprobate rage.



To provide historical perspective, (a) it has been happening since Christ's first advent, and (b) what is happening now is no different. The problem arises when someone tries to associate what is happening now with some special dispensation alleged to be foretold in Scripture, and thereby seeks to give the voice of divine authority to his pessimistic prognostications.


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## RamistThomist (Jan 3, 2014)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> When you say “concerned”, if you mean anxious or worrying or fearful, I agree. If you mean, “thinking carefully on a matter of interest or importance”, I do not agree.



And on that, this premillennialist agrees!


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## Jerusalem Blade (Jan 5, 2014)

“pessimistic prognostications”?

Was our Saviour “pessimistic” when He said to His men He was going to the cross? No, for it had been written of Him.

I suppose one may say of an entire exegetical tradition they are pessimistic on account of their understanding the Scripture to say the church will go through fire before entering glory, and this especially so at the end of the NT era. 

But it is not what happens to the body, with regard to suffering foreseen, but the state of the soul that determines the appellations “pessimistic” or “optimistic” – and for those whose courage and love for Christ rise to whatever occasion presents itself, and who seek to honor the God of heaven and earth by following faithfully in the steps of the Crucified One He sent to be our Captain and Friend, these are not pessimists who for the joy set before them endure the shame of bearing the cross – and the reproach – of the conquering Lamb.

It is also clear from Scripture that the age of bearing witness to the Lordship of Christ over the nations, and of every person having to give account to God for sins against His law and disdaining the forgiveness offered for such through the substitutionary death of His Son, this witness will elicit hostility and violence from people of all nations, and we will be hated of all. This is not pessimism, but a realistic counting the cost of true discipleship, which believers in communist, Islamic, Buddhist, Hindu, and atheist nations already know they have to pay for naming the name of Jesus Christ. Only we in the West do not know it, but rather live in Pollyanna dreams due to the soft lives we have lived for many years, and expect more of the same. The Bible is not pessimistic, it just tells us not to think it a strange thing when it is our turn to go through the fiery furnace. No other way to glory but the cross. It is an honor to be counted worthy to suffer for His name's sake. We shall know of these things, ready or not.


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