# Rick Warren's Peace Plan



## Richard King (May 3, 2007)

I just saw Mr. Warren on the FOX morning news 
(he really must have an inside connection here)
and he was advocating a network that would use churches as places for healthcare, education and other solutions to society's ills.

http://www.crossroad.to/charts/millennium-goals-peace.htm

This will work about like the UN (doesn't) won't it?


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## turmeric (May 4, 2007)

If I were a Dispie, I'd be having some interesting questions about that guy by now!


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## Chris (May 4, 2007)

Richard King said:


> (he really must have an inside connection here)



R. Murdoch owns Foxnews *and* Zondervan publishing.


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## bwsmith (May 5, 2007)

Richard King said:


> I just saw Mr. Warren on the FOX morning news
> (he really must have an inside connection here)
> and he was advocating a network that would use churches as places for healthcare, education and other solutions to society's ills.
> 
> ...



I really don't know a lot about Rick Warren -- have not read his books -- BUT, if the church trusted God to multiply our feeble efforts -- I believe we could accomplish a great deal.


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## staythecourse (May 5, 2007)

*From a faith-based church*

I don't have a firm position on church and state separation but I had the opportunity to ask Dr. Tom Nettles here at seminary what he thought about faith-based work where state and church worked together to solve social ills. His answer surprised me as he said the combination of the two throughout church history has apparently always created problems for the church. He says was convinced they should be separate. He told the entire class that.


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## bwsmith (May 5, 2007)

staythecourse said:


> I don't have a firm position on church and state separation but I had the opportunity to ask Dr. Tom Nettles here at seminary what he thought about faith-based work where state and church worked together to solve social ills. His answer surprised me as he said the combination of the two throughout church history has apparently always created problems for the church. He says was convinced they should be separate. He told the entire class that.




I agree linking arms with the gov. may well be unsound -- I mean giving that cup of cold water ourselves!


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## edb19 (May 5, 2007)

Hasn't the church done those very things for years anyway? Consider how many charities, hospitals, colleges and universities are associated with churches. Christians in England and Great Britain were actively involved in the abolition of both the slave trade and slavery itself. Christians have kept the realities of abortion in the limelight and have provided alternatives for years.

I hate to be cynical - but I'm thinking that maybe Mr. Warren is just looking to sell another book.


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## bwsmith (May 5, 2007)

edb19 said:


> Hasn't the church done those very things for years anyway? Consider how many charities, hospitals, colleges and universities are associated with churches. Christians in England and Great Britain were actively involved in the abolition of both the slave trade and slavery itself. Christians have kept the realities of abortion in the limelight and have provided alternatives for years.
> 
> I hate to be cynical - but I'm thinking that maybe Mr. Warren is just looking to sell another book.



The church _*has done*_ great things --she seems weak now (in the USA) -- we have abortions, for example often as frequently as non-Christians -- therefore a goad to get busy is welcomed. 

Are you saying Rick Warren do es not put his money where his mouth is?


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## Chris (May 5, 2007)

> we have abortions, for example often as frequently as non-Christians



The 'we' who has abortions frequently isn't part of the church. That 'we' may be part of a red brick building, but it's not part of the church.


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## ajrock2000 (May 5, 2007)

Chris said:


> The 'we' who has abortions frequently isn't part of the church. That 'we' may be part of a red brick building, but it's not part of the church.


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## edb19 (May 5, 2007)

bwsmith said:


> The church _*has done*_ great things --she seems weak now (in the USA) -- we have abortions, for example often as frequently as non-Christians -- therefore a goad to get busy is welcomed.
> 
> Are you saying Rick Warren do es not put his money where his mouth is?



That wasn't my intent - at least not totally. I understand that Rick Warren gives a phenomenal amount of his income to charity - particularly AIDS research and treatment. I respect that. 

But I also get the impression that the whole "purpose driven" mantra is a business. He can teach the same thing from Scripture instead of encouraging churches to buy his book, attend his seminar, join his groups. I read all the time about "purpose driven" churches - excuse me aren't we Christ driven churches? I've read some things about Saddleback that i find truly depressing - at times there's no way to distinguish them from a "secular" social event.

And again - I think, for the most part, churches in general and Christians specifically have already done many of these things. Christians have been the social conscience of the world for centuries. Again, Christians built the churches, the hospitals, the charities, the schools. They are the ones who go out into the world and find ways to help those in need. What Warren is suggesting (not having seen him on Fox news) doesn't appear to be anything new.


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## bwsmith (May 5, 2007)

edb19 said:


> That wasn't my intent - at least not totally. I understand that Rick Warren gives a phenomenal amount of his income to charity - particularly AIDS research and treatment. I respect that.
> 
> But I also get the impression that the whole "purpose driven" mantra is a business. He can teach the same thing from Scripture instead of encouraging churches to buy his book, attend his seminar, join his groups. I read all the time about "purpose driven" churches - excuse me aren't we Christ driven churches? I've read some things about Saddleback that i find truly depressing - at times there's no way to distinguish them from a "secular" social event.
> 
> And again - I think, for the most part, churches in general and Christians specifically have already done many of these things. Christians have been the social conscience of the world for centuries. Again, Christians built the churches, the hospitals, the charities, the schools. They are the ones who go out into the world and find ways to help those in need. What Warren is suggesting (not having seen him on Fox news) doesn't appear to be anything new.



Perhaps what I am reacting to is not what you mean at all – and for that I apologize if I have misread your points. In my humble opinion, (many) reformed folk often take great pleasure in our doctrine – yet with little enthusiasm for practical application – but prefer discussing how others fall short. 

But I sense some disapproval by asking if we all aren’t Christ-drive churches. Would that we were – and this isn’t new either – So, I gotta say – the spirit may be willing, but the church (remains) in the USA needs renewal as well as reformation – because our infatuation with personal peace and affluence, (what Francis Schaefer warned the church of in the 1960's-70's), weakens our witness – and we face an enemy whose resources are formidable – Islam. 

Resting on our (considerable) laurels is an unwise impulse – most all of the universities, like Harvard, Yale, Brown, Vassar, through Howard, established for training missionaries – have been co-opted; so have the major teaching hospitals. 

This isn’t new – and the problems we face in USofA and world need workers as much as we need thinkers. I welcome folks who bring fresh ideas –Because I haven’t read his books either – nor do I know that much about Saddleback – nor have I worshiped there – I must ask, are you saying Mr. Warren does not preach the Gospel, or from Scripture? (I am familiar with celebrate recovery – a ministry to hurting people.) 

Given that lots of church growth today (USA) is switching denominations, we who do not read his books might consider learning of a “method” and asking God how and what we should be doing.


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## bwsmith (May 5, 2007)

Chris said:


> The 'we' who has abortions frequently isn't part of the church. That 'we' may be part of a red brick building, but it's not part of the church.



Oh dear poster -- born-again evangelical women and their partners -- husbands and boyfriends are relying on abortion for birth control, and for solutions to unexpected pregnancies -- it is a literal scandal eve among reformed churches, and my source is a Christian birth center, as well as a statistic from Moody Magazine before its demise in 2002:

Here's a link to something sobering! Theoverall numbers are falling from 1.6 million deaths to 1.3 Million -- but the number of evangelicals who are having abortions is increasing! 


http://www.moodymagazine.com/articles.php?action=view_article&id=549


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## bwsmith (May 5, 2007)

Another link with sobering details:
http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/articles/christianity_abortion.html


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## staythecourse (May 5, 2007)

> In my humble opinion, (many) reformed folk often take great pleasure in our doctrine – yet with little enthusiasm for practical application



This seems evident to me, too. For example, the Red Cross can jump in a disaster and make things happen fast for relieving suffering while my church denomination (Reformed Baptists) has a very small impact. They will not join in with less doctrinally sound organizations.

It smacks of Phariseeism and I want no part of that.

Spurgeon says our brothers opinions may be as far apart as the poles but we are still brothers under Jesus and must work together with them, accept them, get molded by them and mold them.


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## bwsmith (May 5, 2007)

staythecourse said:


> This seems evident to me, too. For example, the Red Cross can jump in a disaster and make things happen fast for relieving suffering while my church denomination (Reformed Baptists) has a very small impact. They will not join in with less doctrinally sound organizations.
> 
> It smacks of Phariseeism and I want no part of that.
> 
> Spurgeon says our brothers opinions may be as far apart as the poles but we are still brothers under Jesus and must work together with them, accept them, get molded by them and mold them.



The good news is that many churches in our denomination (PCA) do and have done their part -- given the news from Kansas though, the need goes on. We support World Vision and the Salvation Army who do offer assistance -- my concern is how little _I _ do on the local level! 

I can do better, and so can the church -- and I don't mind the reminder from a believer or even unbeliver --


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## Herald (May 5, 2007)

Chris said:


> The 'we' who has abortions frequently isn't part of the church. That 'we' may be part of a red brick building, but it's not part of the church.



Chris - amen. Well said.


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## Herald (May 5, 2007)

bwsmith said:


> Oh dear poster -- born-again evangelical women and their partners -- husbands and boyfriends are relying on abortion for birth control, and for solutions to unexpected pregnancies -- it is a literal scandal eve among reformed churches, and my source is a Christian birth center, as well as a statistic from Moody Magazine before its demise in 2002:
> 
> Here's a link to something sobering! Theoverall numbers are falling from 1.6 million deaths to 1.3 Million -- but the number of evangelicals who are having abortions is increasing!
> 
> ...



With all due respect I have to question the spiritual condition of those who would turn to premeditated murder as means of birth control. Is it possible for a child of God to kill a baby? Possibly. Is it possible for infanticide to become an epidemic in the "true" church? I pray to God that is not the case.


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## Herald (May 5, 2007)

bwsmith said:


> The good news is that many churches in our denomination (PCA) do and have done their part -- given the news from Kansas though, the need goes on. We support World Vision and the Salvation Army who do offer assistance -- my concern is how little _I _ do on the local level!
> 
> I can do better, and so can the church -- and I don't mind the reminder from a believer or even unbeliver --



bw - are you familiar with our local crisis pregnancy center in Anne Arundel County? The Bowie-Crisis pregnancy center was able to lease space that had been recently vacated by a baby killing operation (also known as an abortion clinic). How wonderful that a facility that was known for death has a new tenant that stands for life. 

*Bowie-Crofton-Severna Park Crisis Pregnancy Center*


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## staythecourse (May 5, 2007)

*That is great!*

Glad to hear the abortion clinic turned into a PCC. Reminds me of how Voltair's home was converted into a Bible-making facility!


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## bwsmith (May 5, 2007)

BaptistInCrisis said:


> bw - are you familiar with our local crisis pregnancy center in Anne Arundel County? The Bowie-Crisis pregnancy center was able to lease space that had been recently vacated by a baby killing operation (also known as an abortion clinic). How wonderful that a facility that was known for death has a new tenant that stands for life.
> 
> *Bowie-Crofton-Severna Park Crisis Pregnancy Center*



Yes, I am --very familiar. Every day P.P. "operated,” a group of women and men from St. John's Roman Catholic church prayed outside the facility. 

Here’s something I wrote about five years ago: 

_Yesterday, at a local abortion clinic, protesters quietly stood displaying a large banner, “Will you Pray to stop Abortion?” I saw my neighbor a new Christian who returned to his Roman Catholic roots. I was convicted that I COULD stop and pray with them, and this also might be an opportunity god would allow me to use to minister to him and his wife.

So I stopped, and prayed – had to avoid the Hail Mary’s, but I could pray the Lord’s prayer in the name of the father, Son & Holy Spirit. 

I hate abortion – we CAN pray asking God to stop it. And like it or not the RC were OUT doing something. How about using scripture, Psalm 139 or Prov 24:11-12 and praying right now?
Rescue those being led away to death; hold back those staggering toward slaughter. If you say, "But we knew nothing about this," does not he who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he who guards your life know it? Will he not repay each person according to what he has done? _​


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## bwsmith (May 5, 2007)

BaptistInCrisis said:


> With all due respect I have to question the spiritual condition of those who would turn to premeditated murder as means of birth control. Is it possible for a child of God to kill a baby? Possibly. Is it possible for infanticide to become an epidemic in the "true" church? I pray to God that is not the case.



I hope you will have time to read the article from Moody. I said it is a literal scandal -- not an epidemic -- even among reformed churches, and one source of information is the Bowie Crisis pregnancy center – But for the grace of God any woman might opt for an easy way out – and but for His grace it is possible for any of us to justify any (wrong) solution to life’s problems.


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## Puritanhead (May 5, 2007)

Am I being presumptious, or misreading, or is Rick Warren talking about partnering with the _United_ Nations? 

The UN supports and subsidizes government forced sterilization and forced abortion in the Second and Third World—mostly with American tax dollars.


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## bwsmith (May 5, 2007)

Puritanhead said:


> Am I being presumptious, or misreading, or is Rick Warren talking about partnering with the Union Nations?
> 
> The UN supports and subsidizes government forced sterilization and forced abortion in the Second and Third World—mostly with American tax dollars.



I don't know. Don't know much about him -- I see just goggling his name and UN, he drives many nuts.


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## staythecourse (May 5, 2007)

*If he keeps getting better Praise God*

I hope he starts correcting himself and gets more accurate in doctrine. I think you're right Trevor in saying he has bought into church growth at the expense of Biblical accuracy.


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## ajrock2000 (May 6, 2007)

trevorjohnson said:


> I think Rick Warren might be a sincere Christian who has bought into Church growth presuppositions. . . now he is doing the best he can working within these presuppositions.



I find this very hard to believe because all he has to do is read the Bible to find out if these things are correct. Not only does he suppress it, but he is advancing in this emergent / seeker church. If he is not saved, he does not just lack correct facts, he is rebelling against the truth of God's Word.



> Some of his sermons ARE the gospel and some are too light and fluffy to be classified as imparting saving knowledge. I do not want to bash him needlessly, but I do not want to endorse him.



I will not give him 1% of any support. He is a false prophet. Just like so many other churches in america with this prosperity gospel, and God's wonderful plan for your life. 

I have been witnessing to a person lately who's family just left a church in my area that followed Rick Warren's purpose driven church. It is very seeker friendly with the band and fluffy sermons. I have been introducing her the real truth about what the bible says about salvation, and she adamantly rejects it with the same "I would never love a God like that" kind of attitude as many that are in this kind of a church. She desperately wants to go back to that church because they 'accept' her. She talks to the pastor over there, and he actually consoles her and makes her feel better about the things that I say. Do you not see how damaging this type of church/gospel is? What you have is a great multitude of people worshipping a god they made in their own minds after their own image. If you were to preach a message on the attributes of God in Saddleback church, I guarantee more than half of the membership would leave. A false prophet is not known by what he says, its by what he does not say.



> He has made many people interested in his church, which does give a certain amount of the Gospel. Sadly, most of the growth is not (as Hybels puts it) among the "unchurched Harrys and Mary's" (I forget the names Hybel's uses, sorry) but most of mega-church growth is merely transfer growth from smaller congregations.



There is no such thing as a gospel that has a certain amount of the truth! Catholics have a certain amount of the truth. So does any other false gospel.

This is just one of the ridiculous anti-biblical statements in his book, Purpose-Driven life,



> You have a choice to make. You will be either a world-class Christian or a worldly Christian.
> 
> Worldly Christians look to God primarily for personal fulfillment. They are saved, but self-centered. They love to attend concerts and enrichment seminars, but you would never find them at a missions conference because they aren't interested. Their prayers focus on their needs, blessings, and happiness. It's a "me-first" faith: How can God make my life more comfortable? They want to use God for their purposes instead of being used for his purposes.



This type of thing will be the reason many will be deceived on that day. There is no such thing as a carnal Christian. They are not in danger of losing rewards, but they are in danger of hell.



> Also, in his peace plan, church planting seems to be nearthe top of the list.



His churches will do more harm than good. I am sorry for being so negative. Satan will come with the most truth possible, but still lead you to death.

Read this article by Darwin Fish: http://www.atruechurch.info/rickwarren.html

Don't bash me for recommending an article by Mr. Fish...lol It is good mainly because you can see some of the things that Rick Warren says in his books, and how dangerous they are.

In Christ,


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## bwsmith (May 6, 2007)

A quote from RW: _ You have a choice to make. You will be either a world-class Christian or a worldly Christian.

Worldly Christians look to God primarily for personal fulfillment. They are saved, but self-centered. They love to attend concerts and enrichment seminars, but you would never find them at a missions conference because they aren't interested. Their prayers focus on their needs, blessings, and happiness. It's a "me-first" faith: How can God make my life more comfortable? They want to use God for their purposes instead of being used for his purposes.​_​
Are you saying this characterization is out of order? Seems to me James was concerned about the same "Softness."


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## bwsmith (May 6, 2007)

trevorjohnson said:


> I think Rick Warren might be a sincere Christian who has bought into Church growth presuppositions. . . now he is doing the best he can working within these presuppositions.
> 
> Some of his sermons ARE the gospel and some are too light and fluffy to be classified as imparting saving knowledge. I do not want to bash him needlessly, but I do not want to endorse him.
> 
> ...




Thanks – Several years ago a friend gave me Purpose Driven Church – and I never got around to reading it – and you are right – somebody so in the spotlight needs our prayers – and that God will surround him with godly counselors and friends!


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## Blue Tick (May 6, 2007)

Maybe God has not permitted Rick Warren's mind to be sanctified. I can't take any credit for what it means to be a reformed Christian or have any understanding of the DOG. If I did I would be a works oriented monster. So, we should pray for Rick Warren, pray that God would be merciful and sanctify his mind and reveal to him the glorious gospel of Grace.


I would agree that his church is not a true "Church" but there are believers there who love God but are either confused, being taught wrong, and seeking truth.

We need to pray.


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## bwsmith (May 6, 2007)

Blue Tick said:


> Maybe God has not permitted Rick Warren's mind to be sanctified. I can't take any credit for what it means to be a reformed Christian or have any understanding of the DOG. If I did I would be a works oriented monster. So, we should pray for Rick Warren, pray that God would be merciful and sanctify his mind and reveal to him the glorious gospel of Grace.
> 
> 
> I would agree that his church is not a true "Church" but there are believers there who love God but are either confused, being taught wrong, and seeking truth.
> ...



What do mean, that the man’s mind isn’t sanctified? He is not a Christian, is that what you mean?


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## RamistThomist (May 6, 2007)

Puritanhead said:


> Am I being presumptious, or misreading, or is Rick Warren talking about partnering with the Union Nations?
> 
> The UN supports and subsidizes government forced sterilization and forced abortion in the Second and Third World—mostly with American tax dollars.



Rushdoony foresaw this 30 years ago.


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## Blue Tick (May 6, 2007)

bwsmith said:


> What do mean, that the man’s mind isn’t sanctified? He is not a Christian, is that what you mean?



What I mean is that his mind needs to be sanctified in the truth of what the role of the Church is in society. I wasn't implying that he was not a Christian. Obviously his ecclesiology is off base, therefore his mind needs to be renewed in what the role of the church is.


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## ajrock2000 (May 6, 2007)

trevorjohnson said:


> Asa, your a real black and white kind a guy, aren't you?



Is not the Word of God black and white?

Jeremiah 23:16-17
Thus says the LORD of hosts: "Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you, filling you with vain hopes. *They speak visions of their own minds*, not from the mouth of the LORD. *They say continually to those who despise the word of the LORD, 'It shall be well with you'; and to everyone who stubbornly follows his own heart, they say, 'No disaster shall come upon you.'"*

Jeremiah 8:11-12
They have healed the wound of my people lightly,saying, 'Peace, peace,' when there is no peace. Were they ashamed when they committed abomination?, they were not at all ashamed;they did not know how to blush.
Therefore they shall fall among the fallen; when I punish them, they shall be overthrown, says the LORD. 

It does not take a smart person to see that Rick Warren does exactly this. I am not overly condemning type of person. When it comes to salvation, I am very adamant about prosperity gospels and the danger they have, and that so many people are told they are saved for praying a prayer. This is very serious, and to me, the end does not justify the means. 



> By the way, I will not support Darwinfish 1%, I think he might be a false prophet and his Gospel is no Gospel at all. All Darwinfish has to do is read the Bible and see that he is preaching untruth. What are you doing endorsing him!?



I told you not to say anything about Fish! I do not support him at all! All I wanted was for you to see what Rick Warren says and the lies that he teaches (as I told you before).



> Read a sermon/lesson here from the mouth of Rick Warren. Don't just listen to the blogosphere, judge from his own words:
> 
> http://pddocs.purposedriven.com:8088/pdf/campaign_previews/Week_One_Rick_Warren_Sermon_Outline.pdf



He can say whatever He wants to say, but his ending ruins everything where Jesus is made out to be a cosmic santa clause begging for your heart.



> Let’s bow our heads – You know God had a purpose in bringing you here today. He wants you to know Him and He wants you to know His purposes for you. So talk to Him. You don’t have to use any fancy words. If you don’t know what to say, just follow me in this prayer…just go “Me too, God”.
> 
> “Dear God, I realize that if it weren’t for you, I wouldn’t be alive. But because you made me, you must have a purpose for me. I admit that I focused on my plans for my life, not yours. But I want to know your purposes for me, so I commit the next 40 days of my life to learning about it. Thank you that you made me so you could love me. Thank you that you cared for me even when I didn’t know you. Thank you that I was made to last forever. I want a life filled with meaning. I want to start by getting to know you better. So as best as I understand, I ask you, Jesus Christ, to come into my life and help me to understand your purposes for me. I want to take the first step today. In your name I pray, Amen.”



This sort of foolishness has deceived so many, and the answer it not to support him because, "some of what he says is good".

Edit: From an initial glance and skim. Where is the promotion of the glory of God in this sermon? It is all about finding out your worth, and that we are created because God wants to love us. This sermon glorifies and promotes man, and puts the key in mans hand, not God's. Where is the call to repentance? Where is our depravity and inability mentioned? Instead look at what Warren says,



> I realize that all of us here tonight are at different stages in our spiritual journey. That doesn’t matter. We’re all going to go through this journey together, no matter what stage you are in. Some of you are seekers, and you’re saying, “I’m not even sure I buy this, but I’m intellectually honest enough to check it out.”



This is false. The Bible says none seek God. We have all turned aside and become useless. He promotes us to "check out Jesus and see if it works". 



> Congratulations, great – we’re glad to have you on the journey. Some of you are brand new believers and for you I’m very excited because you’re going to get to start off right, like many of us did not. Some of you are what I call “stumblers.” You say, “I call myself a Christian, but I’m not really very close to God. And I’ve been really, honestly, living for my plans and not God’s.” Well this 40 days is the time to come home. Some of you are strong believers, and you’re going to go deeper with God than you’ve ever gone before and you’re going to bring others long, too. Regardless of where you are in your spiritual journey, look at this last verse. “It makes no difference who you are or where you’re from – if you want God and are ready to as He says, the door is open.” (Acts 10:35)



I have no idea what version he is using for Acts 10:35 (oh wait, I found it, its the Message), but the KJV reads, "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." I have no idea where he gets the idea of it saying God is waiting around for us to be ready for Him. Warren also falsely prophesies and tells us that someone can be a Christian yet continuously not close to God. Instead of labeling them in need of salvation and their mind at enmity with God, he proclaims them as "stumblers". The Bible says, "If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.", and "Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him"

"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."

I also find it typical that he quotes Proverbs 16:4*a*, instead of the whole thing...and I can see why. Anything that offends people, he takes out. He is pure and simple, a false prophet, saying 'Peace', when there is no peace.


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## bwsmith (May 6, 2007)

Blue Tick said:


> What I mean is that his mind needs to be sanctified in the truth of what the role of the Church is in society. I wasn't implying that he was not a Christian. Obviously his ecclesiology is off base, therefore his mind needs to be renewed in what the role of the church is.



Thanks for your rely -- but I still am not sure what you mean -- what has he said about the role of the church in society that is opposed to what Christ said? 
And why is it obvious that his "ecclesiology" is off base?


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## bwsmith (May 6, 2007)

About Ric Warren – 
What I want to know, please, is what is evidence of wrong, unChristian, anti-biblical teaching. 

I ask this because at both the PCA churches we attend (because of travel) they have a Celebrate Recovery program – and that is an outgrowth, I think, of Saddleback church.


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