# This might be a dumb question but can someone be saved without the "written gospel"?



## rpavich (Aug 26, 2011)

I'm putting this question in the covenant theology because I see this up to a point like this:

People were saved in the Old Testament the same way they are saved in the new; via faith.

But here is my problem.


I was talking to someone and they asked me if someone can be saved apart from the gospel (i.e. "repent and believe") and I said no.

Then they said "Do you think OT saints were saved by faith?"

"Yes" I said.

Then this person said: "Did they know about Jesus?"

"No" I said.

Then they said "So if someone was born in China at the time of Jesus; they couldn't have knowledge of Jesus obviously...could they be saved?


I started to say "no"....but then I'm wondering....



Does this imply that they can be saved apart from specific knowledge of Jesus? More like a general knowledge of faith in God...sort of like the Old Testament saints had less knowledge....etc.


Can someone help me understand and sort this out?


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## Rufus (Aug 26, 2011)

They had belief in the work of Christ that was too come, they where looking ahead towards it.


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## rpavich (Aug 26, 2011)

Rufus,
thank you very much but are you saying Abraham had knowledge of Christ?


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## PuritanCovenanter (Aug 26, 2011)

Abraham, David, and Job and all the saints knew of the coming Messiah. He spent personal time with Jesus on this earth. The Lord visited Abraham with two Angels before Sodom was overthrown by the Lord. 

(Joh 8:56) Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."


(Joh 8:57) So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"


(Joh 8:58) Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."


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## Hamalas (Aug 26, 2011)

The difference between the Chinese peasant and the Israelite believer is that the Israelite had the complex sacrificial system that pointed forward to Christ typologically, the revelation of God through the OT, the priesthood & the kingdom. In other words, the Israelites had more than just a generic "faith" in a generic God, they actually possessed real (although limited) knowledge of the real God who revealed Himself through the Law and the Prophets. And interwoven into the Law and the Prophets was the testimony of Christ, the Messiah, who would one day come to redeem his people from sin, death, and the devil! There is so much that could be said about this (for it is the story of the gospel itself) but I would recommend that you first read through the Book of Hebrew first with this question in mind. That should help to clarify.


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## rpavich (Aug 26, 2011)

Thank you all so much...this really helped to clarify this more in my mind...

I guess a read through Hebrews is warranted next... 

But really thanks very much.


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## Hamalas (Aug 26, 2011)

This might prove helpful: How Were Jews Saved in the Old Testament?


By the by, this is definitely *not* a dumb question!  These are natural connections that allow us to more fully explore the beauty and riches of God's grace. I hope that you are built up and encouraged by your studies in this area.


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## PuritanCovenanter (Aug 26, 2011)

Partial Response to Antinomista by Evangelista

Concerning the Salvation of the Israelites

And sir, do you think that these Israelites at this time did see Christ and salvation by him in these types and shadows?

Yes,….And therefore says Calvin, ‘the sacrifices and satisfactory offerings were called Ashemoth, which word properly signifies sin itself, to show that Jesus Christ was to come and perform a perfect expiation, by giving his own soul to be an asham, that is, a satisfactory oblation.(Institut. P. 239.)

Wherefore, you may assure yourself, that as Christ was always set before the fathers in the Old Testament, to whom they might direct their faith, and as God never put them in hope of any grace or mercy, nor ever showed himself good unto them without Christ: even so the godly in the Old Testament knew Christ by whom they did enjoy these promises of God, and were joined to him. [To Christ, by faith.] And, indeed, the promise of salvation never stood firm till it came to Christ. And there was their comfort in all their troubles and distresses, according as it is said of Moses, ‘He endured as seeing him who is invisible, esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt, for he had respect to the recompense of reward’ (Hebrews 11:26-7).

And so says Calvin, ‘So oft as the prophets speak of the blessedness of that faithful, the perfect image that they have painted thereof was such as might ravish men’s minds out of the earth, and of necessity raise them up to the consideration of the felicity of the life to come (Insitut. P.207); so that they may assuredly conclude, with Luther, that all the fathers, prophets, and holy kings, were righteous, and saved by faith in Christ to come; and so indeed, as Calvin says, ‘were partakers of all one salvation with us’ (Institut. P. 198).

Edward Fisher 
Marrow of Modern Divinity
pp. 91,92


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## Kim G (Aug 27, 2011)

I don't have much to add except to say that three passages helped me when I first started studying this issue. Galatians 3 says that Abraham had the gospel preached to him. Hebrews 11 said that Moses chose the reproach of Christ over the treasures of Egypt. And I Corinthians 10 says that the Israelites in the wilderness "drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ." Not only that, but when they grumbled about being in the wilderness, the same passage says that they were putting Christ to the test.


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## Scott1 (Aug 27, 2011)

The whole of the Old Testament could be said to be looking toward, pointing toward the coming, Messiah, Redeemer, Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is implicit in the Old Testament (covenant theology really helps us understand this).



> Luke 24
> 44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
> 
> 45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,



Moses, the Prophets and Psalms are writing about Jesus Christ our Lord.

The New Testament looks back at the risen Savior, Redeemer Jesus Christ.

It has always been about Jesus.

The Old Testament saints, the church, did not know as much about our Lord as we do in the New. But they knew enough to put their faith in the coming Messiah, redeemer Jesus Christ.

That faith, justified them.

Salvation was, is, and shall be until the end of this world, by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.


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## Semper Fidelis (Aug 27, 2011)

rpavich said:


> Then they said "So if someone was born in China at the time of Jesus; they couldn't have knowledge of Jesus obviously...could they be saved?


One thing you might want to make sure about in this conversation is doing away with any notion that a person is condemned because they reject Christ. This may or may not be implicit in the person's conversation.

The question above implies that the person in China was condemned because of a lack of knowledge about Christ. Actually, outside of Christ, the whole world was condemned for their sin and rebellion against God. Christ did not come into the world to condemn it because the world was already condemned. Christ is the remedy for condemnation and an acceptance/rejection of Him is not the primary reason why men are condemned.

That said, this question gets to the heart of the misunderstanding regarding faith as if it boils down to a cognitive and logical apprehension of all the appropriate facts. It gives too much to the human mind as if the answer to what God is doing depends upon people understanding every proposition and agreeing with it. Salvation is of the Lord and, from Gen 3, God was pleased to manifest promises and "sacraments" of sorts that a worshiper could look to, in part, and trust in God's provision. A lamb slain to clothe Adam and Eve, a rainbow in the sky, animal pieces cut in two and God passing through them, circumcision, sacrifice, a king, and prophets. All of these foreshadowed and played out in ways that would lift up the faith of those who were looking on and point them to a deliverer. Peter even notes that the prophets of old studied the things they prophesied not fully understanding them but they knew enough that God would save them from their sins. They trusted God at His Promise, which is the heart of Heb 11.

Thus, when we say that the OT saints were saved by Christ, it is not necessary that we say that they knew His name was Jesus or much of the information we have available. First, God initiates salvation so their spiritual hunger and longing was born of Him. Second, they trusted in what God promised was to come. Third, all the symbols were shadows and types and God used these to lift up the eyes of faith to a deliverer. Fourth, God applied the satisfaction Christ provided on the Cross for all the OT forebears as former sacrifice could not truly atone for sin but only pointed forward to a perfect Sacrifice.


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## Peairtach (Aug 27, 2011)

As long as people have a definite word from God, in writing or aurally, that He is willing and able to save, and the Holy Spirit blesses it to them, they can be saved.

We can't get such a definite saving word about God from general revelation. Although general revelation reveals many things about God, it doesn't teach us that He is able and willing to save.

Faith needs a special revelation from God, a sure word about salvation, to rest in. It doesn't need to be full of details about salvation, but such details should nourish faith.

All the nations - including the Chinese - had the true faith hadn't down to them from the time of Noah, which they lost, apart from some traces in e.g. their language, and garbled accounts of the Flood.

We don't have all the details of how and when the nations lost/rejected the Gospel.


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