# Instruments in worship, element or circumstance



## Croghanite (Mar 3, 2009)

Reading the thread on Instruments in worship, I was considering how some believe a former element of worship can now be used and considered a circumstance today.


Would someone please explain how a former element of worship *can or can not* be implemented in today's worship and be considered a circumstance. I think if folks with apposing views explained that, it would help.


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## NaphtaliPress (Mar 3, 2009)

Good question. Is there a class of such things or is musical instrumentation the only example?


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## fredtgreco (Mar 3, 2009)

Clothing is another example.


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## Semper Fidelis (Mar 3, 2009)

Plates.
Cups.
Trays.
Candles.


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## Croghanite (Mar 3, 2009)

What if session implemented the burning of incense during the lords day service. They light the incense just before singing praises and put it out at the end of the songs being sung. Session believed it would assist the folks in worship. This would be done every week.

Would this be acceptable to do?

-----Added 3/3/2009 at 09:13:21 EST-----

I am trying to see where the line would be drawn....

If it is true that all former elements of worship can not be used today but some can. How do you know which former elements of worship are permissible to be used today?


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## uberkermit (Mar 3, 2009)

fredtgreco said:


> Clothing is another example.



This seems ambiguous (I am not suggesting this was your intention) to me. could you elaborate on what you're saying?


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## fredtgreco (Mar 3, 2009)

uberkermit said:


> fredtgreco said:
> 
> 
> > Clothing is another example.
> ...



Clothing was an element of worship in the OT, in the NT it is still used, but is not an element - rather a circumstance.

I am not referring to "non-naked" pastors, but the fact that the minster's clothing (on some level) distinguishes the office of minister, without being prescribed and an element in itself.


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## MW (Mar 3, 2009)

fredtgreco said:


> I am not referring to "non-naked" pastors, but the fact that the minster's clothing (on some level) distinguishes the office of minister, without being prescribed and an element in itself.



But if one were to argue for ministers' clothing as a circumstance on the basis that it is warranted from the OT prescriptions for priests' clothing, would it not be evident that ministers' clothing is being viewed as more than a mere circumstance? Doesn't the same apply to instruments? When you have so many people who cannot think of them apart from their OT prescription it becomes clear that they cannot practically be used as a mere circumstance to help keep singing in time and tune.


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## fredtgreco (Mar 3, 2009)

Ministers clothing could not be more than a circumstance unless it were required and of a certain sort. There is no specific clothing for a minister like there was for a priest.


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## MW (Mar 3, 2009)

fredtgreco said:


> Ministers clothing could not be more than a circumstance unless it were required and of a certain sort. There is no specific clothing for a minister like there was for a priest.



But that only equates to the fact that there are no specific instruments as was required under the OT. In both cases you have the fact that these things were prescribed in the past and are alleged as a kind of precedent.

While, theoretically, I think it is possible to argue for instruments as circumstances, practically it is impossible given (1) that to the contemporary mind the instrumental music is seen as essential to the aesthetic of worship, and (2) this is evidenced by the fact that so many people automatically find a warrant for them in the commands to sing with instruments in the Psalms. To substantiate this point one only needs to look at the responses in the Calvin on Heidelblog thread and the many other threads dealing with this sunject on PB and various internet forums.


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## fredtgreco (Mar 3, 2009)

armourbearer said:


> While, theoretically, I think it is possible to argue for instruments as circumstances, practically it is impossible given (1) that to the contemporary mind the instrumental music is seen as essential to the aesthetic of worship




Matthew,

Forgive me, but this point is highly ineffective, it seems to me. Instrumental music would have been seen as even more "essential" to music in the 1st century Greek mind.


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## MW (Mar 3, 2009)

fredtgreco said:


> Forgive me, but this point is highly ineffective, it seems to me. Instrumental music would have been seen as even more "essential" to music in the 1st century Greek mind.



Hence the reason why the Greek fathers reacted so negatively to the thought of introducing it into the worship of God. I think it is clear that the saturation of a sentimental mentality via pop culture has strongly prejudiced the possibility of mere circumstantial use of instruments today. I would like to see examples where they are used and the common person doesn't equate them with their use in OT worship or with the idea that they enhance the worship in some way.


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## Whitefield (Mar 3, 2009)

Is the issue whether humans see it as essential or circumstantial, or whether God does?


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## Semper Fidelis (Mar 4, 2009)

The question in the OP was this:


> Would someone please explain how a former element of worship can or can not be implemented in today's worship and be considered a circumstance. I think if folks with apposing views explained that, it would help.


The question was answered whether one wishes to debate the answers is irrelevant to the answer given.

Plates, cups, bowls, trays, and candles were all prescribed elements in OT worship and are not so in NT worship. Does somebody desire an explanation as to how that can be the case? If not then the purpose of the thread has been served unless the real motivation is to debate instruments in worship, which was not in the OP.


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## timmopussycat (Mar 4, 2009)

LAYMAN JOE said:


> Reading the thread on Instruments in worship, I was considering how some believe a former element of worship can now be used and considered a circumstance today.
> 
> Would someone please explain how a former element of worship *can or can not* be implemented in today's worship and be considered a circumstance. I think if folks with apposing views explained that, it would help.



Are you asking how an Old Testament element of worship can be considered a circumstance in the New Testament, or are you asking how an element that formerly in the NT age was considered an element can today be considered a circumstance?


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## TimV (Mar 4, 2009)

> I would like to see examples where they are used and the common person doesn't equate them with their use in OT worship or with the idea that they enhance the worship in some way.



Pastor Winzer, we all come from different backgrounds, but the broad American mega church evangelical background that I and many others here come from always use musical instruments. And we were so ignorant of the Old Testament that no one ever really thought much about the Levitical use of instruments. Sure, we all knew that you were supposed to praise God with harps and things, but since we were so focused on the End Times that if anything, the references to using instruments in Heaven reigned in the popular imagery of the common man. Thing of people on clouds, with harps, halos and wings!


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## Croghanite (Mar 4, 2009)

timmopussycat said:


> LAYMAN JOE said:
> 
> 
> > Reading the thread on Instruments in worship, I was considering how some believe a former element of worship can now be used and considered a circumstance today.
> ...



The question was about former elements of worship in the OT that are implemented in the NT and are now considered circumstances. Specifically Instruments.


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