# Dance as worship



## D. Paul (Jul 14, 2005)

I've searched this thread for direct comment on this issue, but is dance in corporate worship absolutely "out of bounds"? I guess I refer to the spontaneous burst of "joy in the Lord" that causes one to express themselves in this way. Also becoming more prevalent in churches are teams of dance as performers. This one is quite close to home but I'd sure appreciate a firm response.


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## JKLeoPCA (Jul 14, 2005)

Does that include line dancing? Because that could be done corporately and in an orderly fashion right?


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## Robin (Jul 14, 2005)

> _Originally posted by D. Paul_
> I've searched this thread for direct comment on this issue, but is dance in corporate worship absolutely "out of bounds"? I guess I refer to the spontaneous burst of "joy in the Lord" that causes one to express themselves in this way. Also becoming more prevalent in churches are teams of dance as performers. This one is quite close to home but I'd sure appreciate a firm response.



Pssst, Don...

Ever heard of "Nadab and Abihu?" A very sincere, creative worship team serving Moses' ministry under the Old Covenant.



Robin



[Edited on 7-15-2005 by Robin]


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## satz (Jul 14, 2005)

just my thoughts,

1 cor 14:33-40, church assemblies should be characterised by order...

While the level of joy and devotion that would drive someone to such a display is certainly to be commended, it think that within the framework of a new testatment church service, such spontaneous displays are to be avoided.

As for dance teams, well, In my humble opinion there is a time and place where dance can be enjoyed by christians, but it shouldn't be in church nor should it be part of formal worship


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Robin_
> Pssst, Don...
> 
> Ever heard of "Nadab and Abihu?" A very sincere, creative worship team serving Moses' ministry under the Old Covenant.
> ...



Yeah, they didn't have the best track record for proper worship, either. 

Besides, that form of worship, along with the rest of the Levitical/Temple order was a shadow of Christ and has been fulfilled and abrogated in His death and resurrection.

Thus, Luke, writing according to Paul's teachings and exhortation (sorry, I had to get my "I think X wrote Hebrews opinion in here...  ), says:

*Heb 7:11 Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? 12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

Heb 7:22 This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant. 23 The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, 24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever.

Heb 8:3 For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer. 4 Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. 5 They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things.

Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. 9:1 Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly place of holiness ... etc.*





Thank God for the simplicity and intimacy of our worship to God through our perfect Mediator that Has come, died, and risen, Jesus Christ our Lord!


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 15, 2005)

More simply put ...

*1 Cor 14:26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.*


What is "edification/building up" (Grk, oijkodomhv)? What does this word/phrase *really* mean?:



> *Thayer's Greek Lexicon* for oijkodomhv:
> 
> 1. (the act of) building, building up
> 2. metaph. edifying, edification: the act of one who promotes another's growth in Christian wisdom, piety, happiness, holiness
> 3. a building (i.e. the thing built, edifice)



and



> *The American HeritageÂ® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition* on _edification_:
> 
> Intellectual, moral, or spiritual improvement; enlightenment.




The question at hand, then, is this:

_What about dancing before the Lord improves our intellect, morality, wisdom, or piety?_

How can _anything_ but the Word of the Holy Spirit, our God, _truly_ improve any of these areas of our life, without mixture of error (i.e. Holy Scripture)?


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## Me Died Blue (Jul 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by satz_
> just my thoughts,
> 
> 1 cor 14:33-40, church assemblies should be characterised by order...
> ...



 & 

 to Gabriel's comments as well.

But since we're not in church... (I couldn't resist!)


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## JonathanHunt (Jul 15, 2005)

And fundamentally, what is worship?

Our music, our dance, our ornate buildings, whatever, none of these things are 'worship'. God is not entertained by the skills of his people, and he is not worshipped in the exercise of them.

I believe that worship is intelligent sentiments addressed to God. Words, no more, no less.

I believe that this article addresses three major principles of biblical worship very well, which seem to have been largely forgotten these days.

JH


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## alwaysreforming (Jul 15, 2005)

I can't imagine anyone wanting to bring dancing into worship except for it being what THEY very much want to do! What reason do we have to believe it is necessary, important, or edifying?

Can you imagine, if dance was brought in to your corp. worship, all of the "bad things" that would start to happen. Somehow "bump and grind" doesn't seem like such a great idea....


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 15, 2005)

How can anything not of God edify? All wisdom comes from the fear of the Lord, does it not?


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## Puritan Sailor (Jul 15, 2005)

So far, though I agree with all the sentiments, you'r going to have to develop better arguments than that. 

{Playing devil's advocate for todays postmodern church}

Who are you to say that dancing doesn't glorify God? God punished Michal for scorning Davids dancing before the Lord. Where in Scripture is dance forbidden? It's commanded in the psalms to dance! Why were the OT saints allowed to express there devotion by dance, but we who enjoy the greater revelation of Christ cannot express our joy with even greater freedom? If you aren't edified by dance than you just aren't looking at it correctly. You need to open your mind and realize that there are different ways than just words to express our corporate gratefulness to God. You need to be more gracious to your brothers in Christ. And should we let the devil have all the good dancing? 

{devil's advocate off}

Don't dismiss arguments like this as nonsense. This is where evangelicals are heading. How are you going to bring them back?


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## satz (Jul 15, 2005)

i would say that it is a simple matter of what God has commanded for new testament church worship. He hasn't asked for dance so we don't dance. As for the OT examples, the simple fact is that the new testament church and israel are different entities with different rules.

As for dance being edifying or glorifying to God, i think any non-sinful thing can, based on the conscience / personality of individual believers, be enjoyed in a way that glorifies God and maybe edifies them. That doesn't mean that these activities should be introduced into the church. In fact, i don't understand why these ppl insisit on introducing 'hobbies' into church worship. If u enjoy something, do it on your own time to the glory of God, there's no need to force it unto everyone else in church. By this kind of logic, any non-sinful activity can be included as part of church worship. What's next...weigh lifting to glorify God with our strenght?


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## Me Died Blue (Jul 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by puritansailor_
> So far, though I agree with all the sentiments, you'r going to have to develop better arguments than that.
> 
> {Playing devil's advocate for todays postmodern church}
> ...



I think the key is in the Regulative Principle. I agree that it will not be of much use to argue the particular ways in which dancing does and doesn't glorify God. But I think that if we can biblically establish the Regulative Principle and defend it as a whole to people, the views on dancing expressed in this thread thus far will follow. Likewise, if we cannot convince someone that the Regulative Principle is biblical, there is no use in searcing for "other arguments" against dancing in church. As I see it, our view on this particular matter fully stands and falls with the Regulative Principle, period.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jul 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Me Died Blue_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by puritansailor_
> ...



I agree. Patrick's point is well taken. So is Chris' point. It's either the Anglican/Charismatic/Evangellyfish/Lutheran/Roman approach to worship ("whatsoever is not forbidden is allowed") or the Reformed RPW approach ("whatsoever is not commanded is forbidden"). Good intentions are not enough to validate a form of worship if it is not in accordance with the specific commands of God, who alone may say what sort of worship is acceptable to him. Will-worship is specifically condemned by the Scriptures (Col. 2.23) and "strange fire," as already noted, is _verboten_. 



> But the acceptable way of worshipping the true God is instituted by Himself, and so limited by His own revealed will, that He may not be worshipped according to the imaginations and devices of men, or the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representation, or any other way not prescribed in the holy Scripture.



The elements of public worship are well settled and include prayer, and 



> V. The reading of the Scriptures with godly fear,(r) the sound preaching(s) and conscionable hearing of the Word, in obedience unto God, with understanding, faith and reverence;(t) singing of psalms with grace in the heart;(u) as also, the due administration and worthy receiving of the sacraments instituted by Christ; are all parts of the ordinary religious worship of God: (w) beside religious oaths,(x) vows,(y) solemn fastings,(z) and thanksgivings, upon special occasions,(a) which are, in their several times and seasons, to be used in a holy and religious manner.(b)



They do not include dance. 

David's dancing before the Lord was not done in the context of public worship; indeed, there is no such example to be found anywhere in Scripture. As Matthew Henry says his dancing was done "with an eye toward him," sincerely, for the glory of God; but it was _afterwards_ that the ark was settled and worship was rendered. Michal's punishment was for despising her husband, the king. There is nothing in that passage then to justify liturgical dance in Christian worship.


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## Puritan Sailor (Jul 15, 2005)

You're getting closer guys. But remember, we're talking to evangelicals here. 

{devils advocate on again, this time for a more sophisticated postmodern }

But the Bible commands us to dance as an expression of our joy. The NT doesn't say we can't dance. Why would this change and Jesus or the apostles never say anything about it? The WCF may be nice but come on that was 400 years ago. Besides, we don't decide things based on man-made documents but on the Bible. The Puritans didn't get everything right. That's a rather narrow view of church history don't you think? Here's what the Bible says:

Psalm 149
1 Praise the LORD! 
Sing to the LORD a new song, 
And His praise in the assembly of saints. 
2Let Israel rejoice in their Maker; 
Let the children of Zion be joyful in their King. 
3Let them praise His name with the dance; 
Let them sing praises to Him with the timbrel and harp. 

Who are you to tell me to not dance when God tells me to? Sounds rather legalistic to me. It's a most exhilirating form of worship. You feel so close to God when you do it. No wonder its included in the worship of God's covenant people in the Psalms. 
{ devil's advocate off }


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jul 15, 2005)

Again, Mr. Evangelical, Matthew Henry, a wise and learned commentator, even if he did live four centuries ago,  on Psalm 149: 



> We must by all proper ways show forth the praises of God: Sing to the Lord. We must entertain ourselves, and proclaim his name, by singing praises to him (v. 3), singing aloud (v. 5), for we should sing psalms with all our heart, as those that are not only not ashamed of it, but are enlarged in it. We must sing a new song, newly composed upon every special occasion, sing with new affections, which make the song new, though the words have been used before, and keep them from growing threadbare. Let God be praised in the dance with timbrel and harp, according to the usage of the Old-Testament church very early (Exod. xv. 20), where we find God praised with timbrels and dances. Those who from this urge the use of music in religious worship must by the same rule introduce dancing, for they went together, as in David's dancing before the ark, and Judg. xxi. 21. But, whereas many scriptures in the New Testament keep up singing as a gospel-ordinance, none provide for the keeping up of music and dancing; the gospel-canon for psalmody is to sing with the spirit and with the understanding.



I don't believe there are any instances of dance in public worship in the Old Testament. The examples given here show dance done to the glory of God, inspired by religious devotion, but not in the context of public worship. Even if there were examples of dance in OT public worship, we know that ceremonial worship was abolished by Christ at the cross (Col. 2). Therefore, how do we know what is valid Christian worship and not cermonial worship that was done away with? We look to the New Testament primarily. Sometimes there is a continuity with OT worship and sometimes not. 

The Puritans were known for adhering to "purity" of worship. Their hermeneutic (based on Deut. 12:32; Matt. 15:9; Acts 17:25; Matt. 4:9, 10; Deut. 4:15 to 20; Exod. 20:4, 5, 6; Col. 2:23) was simply that there must be an affirmative binding prescription for worship today in order for it to be acceptable. None exists for liturgical dance. The Puritans were not divinely inspired, nor is the Westminster Confession. They are cited here, because they understood the Scriptural principle of worship, a principle which the modern evangelical church and many others today have forgotten or ignored.

Feelings are not the basis of acceptable worship; the basis of Biblical worship is to be found in the ordinances of God. One can sincerely worship God in a manner that is displeasing to him and feel quite good about it. In contrast though, when we worship God in the channels that he has prescribed, our feelings will mirror the feelings of David as they are recorded in the psalms. Psalm 51, in particular, shows us how we are to approach God. We come to the Lord in humility, maybe even in despair, and our burden is lifted in his blessed presence as we glorify and enjoy him, and find assurance of pardon. What joy, what rapture! Based on coming to God on his terms, and not our own. True worship is more than simply following the right ordinances, as we see in vv. 16-17 -- God sees the heart as well as the actions and the heart must be in the right place -- but this truth is not license to worship God according to our own pleasures. If exhilaration is the standard by which we measure what is acceptable in worship, then anything that feels good is ok. If you are consistent, then there is no end to what you will justify in worship. 

Let's define legalism properly. It is adding a requirement that God has not added. According to that definition, the lawfulness of liturgical dance is lacking because God has not affirmatively required us to worship him in that manner. Rather, the idea that liturgical dance is lawful is based on an approach to worship that misunderstands examples of dance in the OT and lacks affirmative prescription to use that form of worship in the NT. 

Let me ask you, Mr. Evangelical, what is will-worship?

[Edited on 7-15-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]


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## Puritan Sailor (Jul 15, 2005)

Much better Andrew.  

You hit all the major points. The more I talk with evangelicals, and Americans in general, the more convinced I am that we have to get down to bare bones to work with them. Assuming the work of the Spirit behind the scenes, we have three absolutes to work with in our age of professed relativism. 
1) The infallibility and sufficiency of Scripture
2) Our God-given ability to reason (even though many folk choose not to use it)
3) And the fallibility of interpreting human experience. 

Most evangelicals today seem to make their interpretations of experience infallible, and so twist the Scripture to fit it, and when it contradicts sound reason, they will say it's just a mystery which we will be solved in heaven. So the first step would be to convince people that their interpretations of experience are fallible. Pain for instance; usually means something bad is happening to our body, but not always, for it could be from that shot the doctor just gave us to cure our disease. 

Dance is included for experiential reasons, not from sound Scriptural exegesis and reason. It stems from a faulty view of worship, which desires to seek experiences of God rather than worship God. 

The Bible for the most part is not difficult to understand intellectually. But it certainly is difficult for the natural man to believe and surrender to. 

So for Mr. Postmodern Evangelical, who is looking for the experiential side of life and meaning, you must first kill his confidence in his idol of experience. 

That's where I am thus far in my understanding. Hopefully with more interaction I can understand how to interact more with these folks.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jul 15, 2005)




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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 15, 2005)

A major thing is understanding types/shadows and their fulfillment in Christ, especially in the Psalms, as they were written for the context of Temple worship and are now fulfilled in Christ with glorious realities for us in the New Covenant.


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## Robin (Jul 15, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> A major thing is understanding types/shadows and their fulfillment in Christ, especially in the Psalms, as they were written for the context of Temple worship and are now fulfilled in Christ with glorious realities for us in the New Covenant.



 Gabe! And, the "spirit" in which the 
Evangellyfish assert they are serving God in their man-made worship is no different than the scenario in Exodus 32. The Israelites were impatient; wanted to express worship to the True God in their own, self-made ways:

Exodus 32:15-20

Then Moses turned and went down from the mountain with the two tablets of the testimony in his hand, tablets that were written on both sides; on the front and on the back they were written. The tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, engraved on the tablets. When Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said to Moses, "There is a noise of war in the camp." But he said, "It is not the sound of shouting for victory, or the sound of the cry of defeat, but the sound of *singing* that I hear." And as soon as he came near the camp and saw the calf and the *dancing* Moses' anger burned hot, and he threw the tablets out of his hands and broke them at the foot of the mountain. He took the calf that they had made and burned it with fire and ground it to powder and scattered it on the water and made the people of Israel drink it. 


Gee, was Moses a legalist? 

r.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 15, 2005)

No, but he had some righteous anger!


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## RamistThomist (Jul 15, 2005)

So, I guess line-dancing is out?


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## Contra_Mundum (Jul 15, 2005)

It is worth noting, also, that E.O. (as much scripture as they have in their liturgy) is not "cerebral" i.e. _Word_ oriented, but is experiential. They got the "worship is _in heaven_" part right, but they have subsumed the work of the mind into a sensual experience. In E.O. mystery and negation are more important to worship and understanding God than reason and apprehension.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 16, 2005)

But the E.O. Church _does_ use the Psalter as the center of all their worship. At least they have that right.


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## D. Paul (Jul 16, 2005)

Wwwwow! Great answers to a thorny issue for me. I wasn't expecting such life from this post, but I thank you all. 

NOW...how do I guide my friends *and my wife* in the proper understanding of this? You see, we have a new worship leader in our church who is anxious to promote this. 

Why must I always be the contrary one?


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## D. Paul (Jul 16, 2005)

...and Gabe, did you get my email?


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## heartoflesh (Aug 1, 2005)

On a semi-related topic, what about social dancing? Why are so many Christians against this?


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## toddpedlar (Aug 1, 2005)

Donald -

Ultimately conviction is going to have to come from the Holy Spirit, but
knowing that, here's what I'd do:

Take 'em to the Scriptures... make the arguments that have been advanced here, and ask them if what they propose to do serves to edify the body. 

The chief objection that Paul has to the use of tongues (other tongues, not the ones in our mouths - those we'd better employ!) in worship had to do
with lack of ability to communicate, which is why he called for gifted interpreters. Dance has no ability to communicate - Scriptural truths simply cannot be taught by dance. Praises to God simply cannot be understood through watching the one supposedly praising God in the act. (well, perhaps one can understand that they are saying something kooky like "Yay, God!", but anything more substantial than that I am hard pressed to infer from someone's dance. 

The RPW doesn't allow for instrumental "special music", as nice as it might sound to the ear, I believe, for this reason - it cannot communicate anything except "nice sound" - and thus has no place in worship. If one is said to be "praising God by dancing", I cannot rightly argue that she or he is not doing that... but it's a private thing - and edifies (if anyone) only the dancer. This kind of individualism is right out. If I cannot "hear" what she or he is saying, and thus cannot be edified by it in any way, then there is no reasonable argument to make for its inclusion (even if you are a NON-RPW'er who believes that what isn't forbidden is admissible). This all is apart from the difficulty in keeping one's mind on worship of God while watching some modern liturgical dancer writhing about. 

Todd

PS - now tap-dancing while preaching... that would be a sight! (suddenly I have visions of Young Frankenstein 'puttin' on the Ritz')


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## raderag (Aug 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Rick Larson_
> On a semi-related topic, what about social dancing? Why are so many Christians against this?



Because it is fun.


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## satz (Aug 1, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Rick Larson_
> On a semi-related topic, what about social dancing? Why are so many Christians against this?



I've no problem with social dancing and can find absolutely no bible condemnation of it. 

Like many things, i find this is one, and over reaction to abuses of a practice by sinful men, and two a strange desire to set hard and fast rules where God has not.


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## Robin (Aug 2, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Rick Larson_
> On a semi-related topic, what about social dancing? Why are so many Christians against this?



Because they're legalistic, thinking dancing is a sin (which it is not) like smoking and drinking - and they are not. Remember the ol' prohibition days; the "sin" tax on alcohol and tobacco? Maybe the "dime a dance" halls had some impact on American fundamentalism?

Even we can't get a way from Pharisaical additions to the Law, hoping to gain merit with God.

It's either that or.....we can't dance very well!


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## Mayflower (Aug 2, 2005)

A great book on this subject is : Shall we dance ? (dance and drama in worship) - Brain Edwards (evangelical press)


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