# Ministry in the UK...



## Hamalas (Dec 4, 2010)

First some background, then my question. I'm a college age guy who is looking very seriously into the possibility of the ministry. It will probably be a decade or so before I step into my first pulpit but I'm trying to prepare in as many ways as possible right now. One of the things I am doing is to begin thinking about where God might have me minister and to begin praying for that area. The area that stands out to me most strongly is Scotland. I see a great need to re-evangalise the Scottish church and Europe in general, which brings me to my question.

What areas of theology/study should a man looking at ministering in the UK (and particularly Scotland) focus on? Are there certain books, or areas of doctrine, that would be especially important to study? Also, what advice would those of you who have ministered in the UK give?


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## Montanablue (Dec 4, 2010)

I lived in the UK for a short period and became very active in a church there. One thing that the members discussed frequently was the number of Americans that came to the country in an effort to revitalize the church. All of these missionaries that the church members told me about failed utterly because they had no concept of the culture and were unwilling to work with British churches. 

I don't meant to discourage you! But I really think that before you go over as a missionary, it would be best if you could go to Scotland and live and work there and join a church before embarking on missions. The UK is incredibly different from the U.S. despite our shared language. I honestly felt much more at home and comfortable in Mexico - it wasn't half as much of a culture shock. And there are gospel-preaching church in the UK. I don't know as much about Scotland but in England and Wales I feel that God is working wonderfully in the church. Perhaps you are called to help - but do so carefully and thoughtfully.


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## jambo (Dec 4, 2010)

I think Kathleen is quite right. I have found the American view of British/Irish culture was well off the mark and there was difficulty in adapting. I have known quite a number of Americans who came here but returned after a relatively short time. There were a number of reasons but discouragement played a large part in a lot of it. Because some had British ancestors that does not mean that it is any easier to adapt to the culture. If it is possible I would live and work here for a while and be involved in a local church. I would observe, listen and learn and take things from there.


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## Bradwardine (Dec 4, 2010)

As a Scot living in Scotland, I concur with the previous two replies.

Your statement "I see a great need to re-evangalise the Scottish church and Europe in general", whilst it may be true does concern me in that Americans tend to see 'Europe in general' as a small, far-off area when it is incredibly diverse region composed of many countries with many languages and diversities in ecclesiastical history.

Americans, especially those of a Reformed persuasion have a nostalgia for Scotland (and the UK as a whole) that bears no resemblance to the way things are now.

Unfortunately the British perception of Americans is not good - either seeing then as loud-mouthed tourists or bringers of extremist religious views eg Mormons. I know this perception is a caricature but it takes a lot of overcoming.

However God works through all sorts of people. Our minister is Brazilian and he has been with us for over five years, has done a great work and has been very well accepted - this is not least because of his humility, realism, adapatability to local culture and willingness to preserve even when things are slow moving.

Just remember the USA needs as evangelised as much as Europe. (although in Scotland a mega-church is probably one that has over 200 attending on a Sunday morning rather than 2,000 !!)

I hope this doesn't sound too harsh but as the previous reply stated "I have known quite a number of Americans who came here but returned after a relatively short time."

Keep praying for us and follow where God opens doors !


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## Hamalas (Dec 4, 2010)

Thanks all! This is helpful. One of the things that I would want to do before committing to the UK would be to go serve in a secondary role (perhaps in a 1-2 year missions internship) at a UK church so that I could really determine whether or not God is calling me there. 

I have some ideas as to what you might mean, but would any of you care to elaborate on some of the particular differences between American and Britain? Or between American perception of the UK and the reality on the ground?


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## Montanablue (Dec 4, 2010)

Bradwardine said:


> Unfortunately the British perception of Americans is not good - either seeing then as loud-mouthed tourists or bringers of extremist religious views eg Mormons. I know this perception is a caricature but it takes a lot of overcoming.



Oh so true. I went to a CU meeting where the visiting speaker (a very dear and godly man) referred to American Christians as "snakehandlers." Obviously, it was a over reaching and broad generalization, and afterwards - after discovering that an American Christian was in the audience - he came over, apologized, and we had a very nice chat. All that goes to show what you have to overcome though. Something to be quite thoughtful about for sure.

---------- Post added at 04:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:10 PM ----------

Ben, I think the internship sounds like a great idea. It would be fantastic to be under the care of a UK church and you would certainly get fantastic guidance concerning the cultural sitaution from their pastor and elders that you could never get over here. .


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## Bradwardine (Dec 4, 2010)

Hi,

I gave a couple of ideas in my reply about perceptions etc. Of course any comments in this area are generalisations - any country is diverse (I've only been to USA once, on business, and visited Cleveland, New Orleans and Boston so appreciate the diversity).

Even understanding our land can be confusing - in the title of your message you refer to the U.K. (United Kingdom) and in your recent reply you refer to Britain. The United Kingdom comprises Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Great Britain comprises Scotland, England and Wales. The 4 countries that comprises that the UK all have their distinctive (eg Wales is reasonably strongly bilingual, Scotland has a separate banking, education, legal and health system). Our Queen is the head of the Church of England (Episcopalian) and yet is sworn to uphold the Presbyterian government of the Church of Scotland. The Queen can only attend the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland by invitation and yet it would take an Act of the U.K. parliament to allow the Church of Scotland to change its subordinate (Westminster) standards.

I throw these random things in just to show you that for s small land we are complex and even cities 50 miles apart have a very different character (and dialect) from each other.

I'll leave it to others to submit more practical thoughts on differences and perceptions as I am a slow typist!


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## kvanlaan (Dec 4, 2010)

This thread brings to mind a lot of our times in China. I think that for the most part, we were not 'effective' with the local people until we were at least a couple or few years into our time there. It took time to learn the language, time to appreciate the idiosyncrasies of the local people, time to get comfortable in our 'new skin'. But it worked. When I traveled to South Africa after several years in China, I found that in spite of the exceedingly polite, rather 'Dutch' people (where a simple 'thank you' is answered with a very drawn out 'pleaaasuure', and some folks I met could have been a long lost relation) I sought refuge in a nasty, dirty little Chinese restaurant where there were very strongly worded arguments going on in the kitchen and felt quite at home. This probably needs to happen to some degree before you will find your groove there. (But for goodness sakes man, STAY AWAY from Scottish restaurants! Any country that believes that mushy peas are somehow a good thing, or believes that a sheep's stomach belongs anywhere but inside a sheep is seriously culinarily handicapped! Scottish restaurants are where the ill go to die.) 

As far as the US needing to be evangelized, it is true. But go as God leads - not all missionaries are called to the savannahs of Africa, nor to the concrete jungles of Chicago. He will show you where He wants you, and if He wants you in Scotland, go.

As 'street cred', I invoke the memory of a VERY foul-mouthed Glaswegian with whom I worked for a couple of years, and my nanny, who was a new-wave punk rocker in the late 70's and early '80s when I was rather impressionable, but whose weird hair and odd taste in music had nothing on her simply being from Fife.


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## jambo (Dec 4, 2010)

I have always felt that the American perception of Scotland is one that has been coloured by Hollywood or some romantic notion of "Granny's Heilan Hame". Possibly the Tourist Board's image of glens and lochs has contributed to the impression. Yet the harsh reality is darker and any UK inner-city has the same problems of deprivation, drugs, violence etc that are found in US cities. 

If you mention Edinburgh people immediately think of its beauty, its architecture, its reformed heritage and its history that is found on every cobble on the streets. Yet the reality is that Edinburgh is the AIDS capital of Europe and has a horrendous drug problem. (In fact the film 'Trainspotting' is probably the most realistic portrayal of Scottish life than anything that has gone before.)

I have found the problem of Americans coming here is one of attitude. They often had the idea that America was the biggest and the best and what is done there should be done everywhere else in the world. But that style just does not suit the quieter more reserved character of the British.

---------- Post added at 12:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:36 AM ----------




> (But for goodness sakes man, STAY AWAY from Scottish restaurants! Any country that believes that mushy peas are somehow a good thing, or believes that a sheep's stomach belongs anywhere but inside a sheep is seriously culinarily handicapped! Scottish restaurants are where the ill go to die.)



My advice: Ignore these remarks. Eat plenty of haggis and that other Scottish delicacy, deep fried Mars Bars all swallowed down with plenty of Irn Bru


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## 21st Century Calvinist (Dec 4, 2010)

I have come rather late to this thread. But all good answers that have been given so far. 
I am delighted that you have a passion for ministry and for the UK and Scotland. I certainly don't want to discourage your passion, but I do want you to be realistic about what it will be like. 
Ben, I am wondering why you feel you want to go to Scotland or the UK. Are you familiar with the people or the culture? I definitely think it is a good idea to spend some time there getting to know the place and people. I guarantee it will be completely different from how you imagine it to be.
The UK is a very post modern, post Christian country and that culture is very different from the majority of the USA. There is an apathy towards the gospel that is very difficult to get beyond. It is a deep rooted apathy. This can be very discouraging for the Christian worker. 
In general most UK folks are fairly reserved so it can take a long time to get to know them. That being said I have seen several American pastors in Scotland fit in very well and be very helpful to their congregations.


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## Hamalas (Dec 4, 2010)

21st Century Calvinist said:


> I have come rather late to this thread. But all good answers that have been given so far.
> I am delighted that you have a passion for ministry and for the UK and Scotland. I certainly don't want to discourage your passion, but I do want you to be realistic about what it will be like.
> Ben, I am wondering why you feel you want to go to Scotland or the UK. Are you familiar with the people or the culture? I definitely think it is a good idea to spend some time there getting to know the place and people. I guarantee it will be completely different from how you imagine it to be.
> The UK is a very post modern, post Christian country and that culture is very different from the majority of the USA. There is an apathy towards the gospel that is very difficult to get beyond. It is a deep rooted apathy. This can be very discouraging for the Christian worker.
> In general most UK folks are fairly reserved so it can take a long time to get to know them. That being said I have seen several American pastors in Scotland fit in very well and be very helpful to their congregations.



Good questions. There several things that peak my interest in ministering in a Scottish church (or Kirk ) 

1) While I am thrilled to see the gospel going forth in Africa, Asia, and South America, I think we would be tragically blind to not give real prayer and attention to Europe and America. Both are nations that have deep roots in the history of the church, and both (although especially Europe) are sinking deeper and deeper into a post-christian malaise. 

2) I have always had a keen interest in church planting and in inner-city ministry. From what I have heard in the past (and the comments of some seem to confirm this) Scotland's cities are incredibly dark. 

3) God has also given me a heart for Muslims. I see Europe as one of the front lines in bringing the gospel to the Muslim world at a time when a red-haired, white skinned guy like myself can't minister freely in many Islamic nations. 

4) I'm encouraged by the works I see going on there through the ministry of certain preachers and organizations. (Such as Reformission Scotland to use one example. Reformission Scotland)

5) I won't deny that there is a cultural and historical draw. My field right now is history (especially Church history) and I know how vibrant and important the Scottish church has been in the past. As a 21st century confessional Reformed Presbyterian I long to see the gospel return with power to a land that once preached it so faithfully. I was challenged recently as I listend to Sinclair Ferguson and John Shearer (who are both Scottish ministers) speak about Scotland. They said (to paraphrase) "Americans often approach Scotland with the idealised 'Mel Gibson' perspective. They think of Scotland as the land of John Knox, the Covenanters, and of so much rich Presbyterian history. And while Scotland has been the Mother of much of Presbyterianism, Americans must realise that their Mother is sick, and deeply needs their help." 

All of these things (and many others) make me consider serving in Scotland. However, I am open to wherever the Lord may call me. And wherever I go, I trust that I will never create a Utopian view of the ministry. As a Pastor's son, I know how difficult any ministry is, but God, in His goodness, chooses to use these fallen vessels to carry His truth. Maybe God will call me to Scotland, maybe not. Wherever He leads though, I hope that I can serve Him faithfully and humbly. 

Thanks for this interaction brothers and sisters, it's very helpful. Any more thoughts?


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