# Does the Christian HAVE to obey somethings that the government disapproves of, but that God approves



## ABondSlaveofChristJesus (Jul 21, 2005)

?


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## Scott Bushey (Jul 21, 2005)

Can you give me an example Tim?


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## RamistThomist (Jul 21, 2005)

Restate your question more clearly.


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## RamistThomist (Jul 21, 2005)

I shall suggest a tentative example, that of the apostles:

They were commanded not to preach or teach in that name, and their response has made tyrants tremble throughout the centuries,

"We ought to obey God rather than man."

But I don't think that is what you are getting at.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 21, 2005)

Do you mean like, abstaining from condemning homosexuality from the pulpit?


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## ABondSlaveofChristJesus (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> Do you mean like, abstaining from condemning homosexuality from the pulpit?



Gabe your online, but your not.... online (ichat). Why do you do this nonsense? 

I mean like.... drinking wine underage



[Edited on 7-21-2005 by ABondSlaveofChristJesus]


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 21, 2005)

I'm in a computer lab at IU.


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## Me Died Blue (Jul 21, 2005)

I would definitely answer yes, largely because if we do not, the command in Scripture to obey the magistrate would be meaningless. I believe that the only way we are justified in disobeying the magistrate is if their instructions would force us to sin. But if one adds that we do not even have to obey them when their restrictions go further than God's (albeit without going against them), when would obeying them apply? In other words, if the answer to your question was no, we would never have to look to the magistrate for any restriction on our actions, only look to God's Law and do anything that it allows, disregarding anything the magistrate says, hence rendering the command to obey the law of the land meaningless.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jul 21, 2005)

Issues of Christian Liberty are not ones we HAVE to obey, lest we be sinning.

A Christian who is 17 doesn't HAVE to drink alcohol, against the gov't's mandates, in order to NOT be sinning.


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## RamistThomist (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Me Died Blue_
> I would definitely answer yes, largely because if we do not, the command in Scripture to obey the magistrate would be meaningless. I believe that the only way we are justified in disobeying the magistrate is if their instructions would force us to sin. But if one adds that we do not even have to obey them when their restrictions go further than God's (albeit without going against them), when would obeying them apply? In other words, if the answer to your question was no, we would never have to look to the magistrate for any restriction on our actions, only look to God's Law and do anything that it allows, disregarding anything the magistrate says, hence rendering the command to obey the law of the land meaningless.



So, moonshining and bootlegging is out? You're no fun


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## Me Died Blue (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia_
> Issues of Christian Liberty are not ones we HAVE to obey, lest we be sinning.
> 
> A Christian who is 17 doesn't HAVE to drink alcohol, against the gov't's mandates, in order to NOT be sinning.



Exactly.



> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Me Died Blue_
> ...


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## ABondSlaveofChristJesus (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Me Died Blue_
> I would definitely answer yes, largely because if we do not, the command in Scripture to obey the magistrate would be meaningless. I believe that the only way we are justified in disobeying the magistrate is if their instructions would force us to sin. But if one adds that we do not even have to obey them when their restrictions go further than God's (albeit without going against them), when would obeying them apply? In other words, if the answer to your question was no, we would never have to look to the magistrate for any restriction on our actions, only look to God's Law and do anything that it allows, disregarding anything the magistrate says, hence rendering the command to obey the law of the land meaningless.



Ok we know that drinking wine in moderation is not inherently sinful. Your saying that if the government were to outlaw the consumption of it in general it becomes sinful?


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## RamistThomist (Jul 21, 2005)

I say it doesn't. And underage drinking in the presence of a legal guardian at home is not against the law.


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## heartoflesh (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Draught Horse_
> I say it doesn't. And underage drinking in the presence of a legal guardian at home is not against the law.



"I did not know that" - (with my best Johnny Carson accent)


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## SRoper (Jul 21, 2005)

"And underage drinking in the presence of a legal guardian at home is not against the law."

I believe that is only true in Wisconsin.


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## Ex Nihilo (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by SRoper_
> "And underage drinking in the presence of a legal guardian at home is not against the law."
> 
> I believe that is only true in Wisconsin.



If I'm not mistaken, it is the law in Louisiana, too. I looked it up a few months ago at New Years when my mom and I wanted to get a bottle of champagne. (I was two weeks shy of 21 at the time.)

And no, I don't think that an underage person has any Christian right to consume alcohol. I agree 100% with Gabriel; it's only okay if you would be sinning not to break the law.


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## ABondSlaveofChristJesus (Jul 21, 2005)

So God gives the government the authority to create morality in certain issues?


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## RamistThomist (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ABondSlaveofChristJesus_
> So God gives the government the authority to create morality in certain issues?



No. A government's power is ministerial, not legislative. If a government creates morality out of thin air, by what standard do you judge that morality to be good or bad?


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## SRoper (Jul 21, 2005)

Governments don't create morality, they create public policy. It is immoral to violate the lawful decrees of government.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by SRoper_
> "And underage drinking in the presence of a legal guardian at home is not against the law."
> 
> I believe that is only true in Wisconsin.



That's true in at least several states. Some states, though, have a zero-tolerance approach to underage drinking of alcohol. Technically, this bars (so to speak), say, a 14-year-old from partaking of the Lord's Supper where wine is served. Unless the First Amendment (religious freedom) trumps that law. In the Prohibition thread, I noted that an exception was made for wine in the Lord's Supper. I don't know if such an exception exists today in certain states for underage communicant church members. I'd like to research this further. I certainly think that such government laws are unwarranted, counterproductive (leads to binge drinking at age 21 or sooner) and possibly unBiblical, ie., unjust. A parent _should_ be able to give their son a beer on his 18th birthday, for example, and a church _should_ be able to serve wine at the Lord's Supper to all communicant members. As Montisquieu said, "Useless laws weaken necessary laws."

[Edited on 7-22-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]


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## SRoper (Jul 21, 2005)

I was confused about the Wisconsin thing. I believe I heard Wisconsin is the only state that allows children to drink with their parents in taverns. However a quick glance through the Ohio Revised Code suggests the same is true there.

Man I was decieved all those years!


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## SRoper (Jul 21, 2005)

By the way Andrew, here is a partial answer to your inquiry:

"No underage person shall knowingly order, pay for, share the cost of, attempt to purchase, possess, or consume any beer or intoxicating liquor in any public or private place. No underage person shall knowingly be under the influence of any beer or intoxicating liquor in any public place. The prohibitions set forth in division (E)(1) of this section against an underage person knowingly possessing, consuming, or being under the influence of any beer or intoxicating liquor shall not apply if the underage person is accompanied by a parent, spouse who is not an underage person, or legal guardian, or the beer or intoxicating liquor is given by a physician in the regular line of the physician's practice or _given for established religious purposes_." [emphais mine]

[Edited on 22-Jul-2005 by SRoper]


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## Ex Nihilo (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by SRoper_
> I was confused about the Wisconsin thing. I believe I heard Wisconsin is the only state that allows children to drink with their parents in taverns. However a quick glance through the Ohio Revised Code suggests the same is true there.
> 
> Man I was decieved all those years!



In taverns? Oh, that's different... I suppose some other states (Ohio?) may allow this, but in Louisiana, it's only legal in the home.

BondSlave, I think the issues of whether the underage drinking laws are unjust and whether we still have to obey them are two different questions. You could argue that the government doesn't have the God-granted authority to place such restrictions on people, but I still don't think that gives a person the right to break the law if he can obey the law without sinning. I suppose I can't prove this, but the entirety of the NT seems to support obeying the law of the Roman Empire until it conflicted with the law of God.

Actually, it seems to me that an underage drinking law that prohibits it only outside the home and church places the real authority here where it ought to be--with the parents.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jul 21, 2005)

> _Originally posted by SRoper_
> By the way Andrew, here is a partial answer to your inquiry:
> 
> "No underage person shall knowingly order, pay for, share the cost of, attempt to purchase, possess, or consume any beer or intoxicating liquor in any public or private place. No underage person shall knowingly be under the influence of any beer or intoxicating liquor in any public place. The prohibitions set forth in division (E)(1) of this section against an underage person knowingly possessing, consuming, or being under the influence of any beer or intoxicating liquor shall not apply if the underage person is accompanied by a parent, spouse who is not an underage person, or legal guardian, or the beer or intoxicating liquor is given by a physician in the regular line of the physician's practice or _given for established religious purposes_." [emphais mine]
> ...



Thanks. This is helpful. Can you tell me what jurisdiction this applies to?


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## JKLeoPCA (Jul 22, 2005)

Westminster Larger Catechism


Question 127
What is the honor that inferiors owe to their superiors.? 
Answer 127
The honor which inferiors owe to their superiors is, all due reverence in heart, word, and behavior; prayer and thanksgiving for them; imitation of their virtues and graces; willing obedience to their lawful commands and counsels; due submission to their corrections; fidelity to, defense and maintenance of their persons and authority, according to their several ranks, and the nature of their places; bearing with their infirmities, and covering them in love, that so they may be an honor to them and to their government. 

Question 128
What are the sins of inferiors against their superiors? 
Answer 128
The sins of inferiors against their superiors are, all neglect of the duties required toward them; envying at, contempt of, and rebellion against, their persons and places, in their lawful counsels, commands, and corrections; cursing, mocking, and all such refractory and scandalous carriage, as proves a shame and dishonor to them and their government. 

Are we asking this question (about the drinking age) just to be able to side step the laws set up for our societies general protection? If so I'd ask at what age is a youth able to judge what are fair rules for all of society?


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## Me Died Blue (Jul 22, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ABondSlaveofChristJesus_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Me Died Blue_
> ...



Yes - just as an intentional seeking out and obtaining of Cuban cigars and marijuana is at this time. Again, if we _only_ have to follow civil restrictions that are also specifically restricted by Scripture, what meaning does the biblical command to obey the law of the land have?


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## SRoper (Jul 23, 2005)

"Thanks. This is helpful. Can you tell me what jurisdiction this applies to?"
-Andrew

Sorry I wasn't clear that I was continuing my previous post. That is from the Ohio Revised Code.


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## VirginiaHuguenot (Jul 23, 2005)

> _Originally posted by SRoper_
> "Thanks. This is helpful. Can you tell me what jurisdiction this applies to?"
> -Andrew
> 
> Sorry I wasn't clear that I was continuing my previous post. That is from the Ohio Revised Code.



Very interesting, thanks!


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