# Using Public Transportation on Lord's Day



## Jaewon (Aug 23, 2012)

Greetings from Korea,

As a well-known fact, Korea has one of the most developed and advanced public transportation systems in major cities (you can disagree with it if you want ). In fact, it is a lot faster to take buses and subways rather than driving your own car in Seoul, capital. 

With this as a backdrop, there are not many confessionally reformed/presbyterian churches in South Korea, so some Christians are forced to travel quite a distance to attend such churches. 19+ is driving age in Korea, and having your own car is financially challenging, especially for college students. Many of these Christians (especially young and reformed), therefore, have to use public transportation on Lord's Day, because otherwise, they have to walk to churches, which is nearly impossible (for example, the church that I am currently attending in South Korea is about 3-4 hours by foot away from my apartment).

Is it lawful to use public transportation on Lord's Day then? Can it be categorized as a work of necessity or as a work of piety? Do churches have to provide carpools for those Christians who have to travel long distance? Or will these Christians just have to settle with non-reformed churches ignoring their conscience?


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## 21st Century Calvinist (Aug 24, 2012)

Yes, I believe that it is lawful to use public transportation on the Lord's Day. To have a functioning public transportation system is a necessity in a modern city. On the Lord's Day some people will need to use it to do works of necessity or mercy. Some hospital staff may need to take a train/bus/subway to get to their jobs. Others may need to use it to visit the sick and housebound. Still others will use it to get to church.
When I was an undergraduate in Edinburgh and then as a graduate in Glasgow I had no car and would regularly get the bus or train to and from church. Indeed there were a number of people in our reformed and presbyterian congregation (both in Edinburgh and Glasgow) who used public transport.
Traveling around the country or from country to country on the Lord's Day, is I believe, another matter.


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## Andres (Aug 24, 2012)

What are your options? If there is a way that you could catch a ride with someone, I would think that preferable, but if the only other option is public transportation or miss church, then I agree with Donnie above that it would be acceptable to take public transportation.


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## Scott1 (Aug 24, 2012)

Jaewon, you are to be commended for seeking to obey God in this way.

The heart of the fourth command is work six, cease from work and play one, in order to prioritize worship of the true and living God, all day. By implication, not causing others to work for your convenience and thereby hinder their obedience (and perhaps your own).

We must be willing to suffer and strive for obeying God, not quickly rationalize away that. I'm not saying that is what you are doing, only observing that is far too often the response of self-absorbed sinners (like us all).

Try every reasonable means to avoid using public transport. Work at it like you would work for something that you really value and that matters to you. E.g. Some people will "move heaven and earth" to get backstage passes at concerts because they really want them, they will wait a long time, stand in the rain, take a chance time after time to get their name called, they will get money somehow, etc. Because they really want it. Oh! How we ought want our Lord and Savior more than that!

This is an opportunity to carpool with fellow believers, maybe even some that do not go to the same church. What a witness and time for fellowship and prayer that might be!

If that or other means don't work generally or even occasionally, my opinion only, you can relax in good conscience and rely on "mercy" and "necessity" exceptions, as they are established in the command.

I had an "impossible" situation like this once in a foreign country.

We were staying with a nominally Catholic family, did not really know where we were, how to get to a reformed church. We had no ability to drive there and so were at the mercy of others. Or so it seemed.
Long story short, God sent a driver from a URC church (which is a biblical, reformed denomination) and we drove a long journey through slums, backroads, over aqueducts, etc. to a humble little building, that just had been flooded, where we had a glorious time of worship and fellowship. We have maintained some connection even to this day.

Seek to obey the Lord of the Sabbath, and ask for faith to make a way in your circumstance.


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## a mere housewife (Aug 24, 2012)

When we were in Mexico, we didn't have a car and our church was a forty five minute bus ride down the mountain. Only two or three people in the church did have small cars, and we were all so scattered that it would have been impracticable to pick us all up from various locations. I was very grateful for public transportation on Sunday!

While I don't have much more to offer besides that experience, I think people in the US scarcely realise how much of a necessity public transportation can be in places where most people are much poorer than the average reformed American (for most reformed churches in the states consist largely of middle to upper class). Even in the states, a church that is not on a bus route or does not have a church bus service is probably not going to be an option for many poor people.


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## he beholds (Aug 24, 2012)

I think that most of the advice that you get from Americans will be slanted. For most of us, especially on the PB, car ownership is a given. If you do not own a car, then public transport IS a necessity. 
Even the fact that people drive cars on Sundays is causing some people to work. Police, traffic cops, transportation departments, etc. (Red lights can break on a Sunday.) 
Though I have heard of a Christian who skipped church because his gas tank was empty and he wouldn't purchase gasoline on a Sunday, so some Christians will disagree with me that the necessity of driving to church counts as a necessity in the confessional sense.


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## OPC'n (Aug 24, 2012)

If you have searched long and hard and can find no other way to get to church, then I believe it is a work of necessity and you are not sinning. You know your own heart about the 4th and I believe God will provide for you in his good time. I would talk to your pastor and tell him about yours and other young people's situation if you haven't already.


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## Kim G (Aug 24, 2012)

I spent two months in Korea with a team of thirteen people and not a car between us. EVERYONE used the subway system. Even the four-year-olds took the subway home after school. I can't imagine how we would have gotten anywhere without public transportation.


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## TexanRose (Aug 24, 2012)

I would not take public transport to get to church on the Sabbath day. Yes, churches ought to provide carpools for those who don't have private transportation. The Free Presbyterian congregation in Singapore, for instance, has invested in two vans, which are driven by volunteers.


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## newcreature (Aug 24, 2012)

he beholds said:


> I think that most of the advice that you get from Americans will be slanted. For most of us, especially on the PB, car ownership is a given. If you do not own a car, then public transport IS a necessity.
> Even the fact that people drive cars on Sundays is causing some people to work. Police, traffic cops, transportation departments, etc. (Red lights can break on a Sunday.)
> Though I have heard of a Christian who skipped church because his gas tank was empty and he wouldn't purchase gasoline on a Sunday, so some Christians will disagree with me that the necessity of driving to church counts as a necessity in the confessional sense.



To add to this, many churches, though not reformed, have police to direct traffic past the churches and in and out of their parking lots. I drive past 3 such churches every Sunday. So, by driving past those busy churches, am I causing the traffic officers to have to work on Sunday? 

There will always be some obstacle and some way of causing or preventing others to be burdened by work on the Lord's Day. We are to be diligent to not work ourselves and to not lay burden on others, causing them to sin. But if you have only one way to get to church, I believe the Lord is pleased that you get there and worship. I don't think the Lord would be pleased for you to not go to church because your only means was public transportation.


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## newcreature (Aug 24, 2012)

he beholds said:


> I think that most of the advice that you get from Americans will be slanted. For most of us, especially on the PB, car ownership is a given. If you do not own a car, then public transport IS a necessity.
> Even the fact that people drive cars on Sundays is causing some people to work. Police, traffic cops, transportation departments, etc. (Red lights can break on a Sunday.)
> Though I have heard of a Christian who skipped church because his gas tank was empty and he wouldn't purchase gasoline on a Sunday, so some Christians will disagree with me that the necessity of driving to church counts as a necessity in the confessional sense.



To add to this, many churches, though not reformed, have police to direct traffic past the churches and in and out of their parking lots. I drive past 3 such churches every Sunday. So, by driving past those busy churches, am I causing the traffic officers to have to work on Sunday? 

There will always be some obstacle and some way of causing or preventing others to be burdened by work on the Lord's Day. We are to be diligent to not work ourselves and to not lay burden on others, causing them to sin. But if you have only one way to get to church, I believe the Lord is pleased that you get there and worship. I don't think the Lord would be pleased for you to not go to church because your only means was public transportation.


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## JoannaV (Aug 24, 2012)

If bus companies were Christian they could easily organise their Sunday schedule such that there was some provision for necessary travel and so that the bus drivers could attend church. 

Of course in reality, it doesn't always work out that way. In towns I have lived much of the bus routes started up the same time most churches start. So the bus doesn't take many people to church but instead takes them shopping.

Walking is good when possible. But otherwise, I think public transportation might actually be preferable to cars, because it reduces the need for traffic control officers etc.?

Don't they have unmanned subway trains yet? Or does someone sit there just in case?


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## OPC'n (Aug 24, 2012)

Fire, Police, Army, medical staff, Pastoral work, etc are works of mercy and necessity.


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## newcreature (Aug 24, 2012)

JoannaV said:


> Don't they have unmanned subway trains yet? Or does someone sit there just in case?



Even with unmanned trains, someone must sit in a control station to operate them.


JoannaV said:


> Walking is good when possible.



He said his walk is 3 or 4 hours. I couldn't walk that far. I don't know about most people. By the time he got to church, he'd be in no shape to focus on worship, and then might be too tired to walk back home.


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## py3ak (Aug 24, 2012)

TexanRose said:


> Yes, churches ought to provide carpools for those who don't have private transportation. The Free Presbyterian congregation in Singapore, for instance, has invested in two vans, which are driven by volunteers.



That's an excellent way to handle things; it also presupposes the financial ability to pull that off. Singapore probably has that; a church in La Paz very likely would not.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Covenant Joel (Aug 24, 2012)

This is an issue that I have had to think through quite a bit, as we will not have a car overseas (at least initially). Public transportation will be our only option. I have wrestled with it a lot, as I have held to my sabbatarian convictions very strongly here in the States. But I believe that it can be a work of necessity, and so I will have to use it at times.


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## Tim (Aug 24, 2012)

Covenant Joel said:


> Public transportation will be our only option.



I am going to address this comment, but I am not picking on you, Joel, because others have said the same thing.

I don't believe public transportation is ever "the only option". I can think of several ways to get to church services for the Sabbath without relying on public transportation. It requires creativity, planning, and sometimes a bit of help from fellow believers.

I am not going to list my ideas because folks tend to suggest why each will not be feasible, but the fact remains that there is always an option. I would encourage that we all think carefully so as to identify those options. Will the Lord not provide a way?


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## Covenant Joel (Aug 24, 2012)

Tim said:


> Covenant Joel said:
> 
> 
> > Public transportation will be our only option.
> ...



Hi Tim, thanks for your thoughts. I do appreciate the spirit and sentiment behind them. Surely there are often other options. And I suppose there is always the option of walking, but depending on where you are, that might be a 5-hour walk one-way. Not sure that this is feasible.

I'm talking about places where this is little or no gospel witness and where this is much poverty such that many if not most believers do not have their own transportation. That's a bit different than some situations here.


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## bookslover (Aug 24, 2012)

he beholds said:


> I have heard of a Christian who skipped church because his gas tank was empty and he wouldn't purchase gasoline on a Sunday...



Wow! He'd rather not buy gas on a Sunday than be able to go to church? Talk about backwards thinking...

Reactions: Like 1


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## bookslover (Aug 24, 2012)

John Murray left his original denomination over just this issue - he thought it was ridiculous that it could be considered a sin to take public transportation on a Sunday - _to go to church_. Good for him. On this subject, the end justifies the means.


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## a mere housewife (Aug 24, 2012)

Just to add some thoughts about options: in Mexico, we were living on 500/mo as one of the richest people in our church family, forty five minutes (busride) from church, in opposite directions from others who came the same distance. I honestly cannot think of other options in those circumstances. Some of those people (who walked) would wake up Sunday morning not knowing what they would do for breakfast. We none of us had the wherewithal to stable a horse. Our three legged dog was not accustomed to bearing men. Some Sundays I couldn't go anyway because the few blocks uphill from the bus stop to the church was too much for me to be walking. We could not move closer to the church (it would have taken our entire income to rent a place in the city) nor simply go to the charismatic or catholic one closer to hand.

There are options for people with money, in societies or churches that have money. Poverty limits options.


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## Tim (Aug 24, 2012)

bookslover said:


> John Murray left his original denomination over just this issue - he thought it was ridiculous that it could be considered a sin to take public transportation on a Sunday - to go to church. Good for him. On this subject, the end justifies the means.



Sir, there are people on the Puritan Board who hold to this position; I hope that you would not be so quick to dismiss this as ridiculous (you said "good for him", so I assume you approve of the use of that word). By all means, debate the subject, but please don't apply the term _ridiculous_, which means "worthy of mockery".


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## Andres (Aug 24, 2012)

Tim said:


> the fact remains that there is always an option



Okay, then it would be helpful to give our dear brother who is asking this question some options. The only options I could come up with would be 1) walk 2) get a ride 3) obtain your own vehicle. It's not a stretch by any means to see how these three might not be viable options. So then what?


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## Dordts5 (Aug 24, 2012)

bookslover said:


> he beholds said:
> 
> 
> > I have heard of a Christian who skipped church because his gas tank was empty and he wouldn't purchase gasoline on a Sunday...
> ...



Wonder if that means that he was too lazy to get it on Saturday. Either way the way I see it: sin to avoid "sinning" truly is backward thinking.


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## Alan D. Strange (Aug 24, 2012)

I figured that someone might bring up Professor Murray.

Murray hinself would not take public transportation on the Lord's Day, but he did not think that it was a clear enough matter to make a disciplinable offense. His original denomination did, as Richard noted, and disqualified him as a ministerial student. 

I agree with Professor Murray that it is adiaphora that each must decide for himself, consonant with Romans 14, and thus not a matter for which we should judge each other. I don't take public transportation because I have no need to but do go through toll stations when driving to preach. Must I avoid those? I don't think so. If someone thinks that they must and they cannot go through toll booths in good conscience, then they should avoid them. But don't judge others, I would say, who may be acting out of good conscience, even as we should be charitable and not judge the motives of those who believe that public transportation is verboten on the Lord's Day.

Peace,
Alan


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## Dordts5 (Aug 24, 2012)

Um, sure this person should most certainly be commended in regards to his thoughtfulness. However, as reformed people we have a tendency to over-think things that we shouldn't be over thinking. I understand both sides of the argument, and with that said, ride the bus. Work six and take a sabbath rest. Those who perform work on Lord's Day may be performing works of mercy, yes, and then they will take their day, a sabbath rest just as the Lord commanded. The OP could ride a bike, that's a lot of work. He could ask someone for a ride, that's extra work (albeit mercy). For the many who pride themselves for holding to Solas, they sure get caught up in works just trying to be obedient.


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## a mere housewife (Aug 24, 2012)

Alan D. Strange said:


> I figured that someone might bring up Professor Murray.
> 
> Murray hinself would not take public transportation on the Lord's Day, but he did not think that it was a clear enough matter to make a disciplinable offense. His original denomination did, as Richard noted, and disqualified him as a ministerial student.
> 
> ...



Thank you for this Dr. Strange. I remember how much it is emphasised in the gospels that Christ is the Lord of the Sabbath; and how the Lord of the Sabbath could tell someone to carry his bed on that day if He wanted to, in special circumstances. It's His day, not any man's. I think perhaps we each receive somewhat different orders from Him with regard to those practical 'bed carrying' matters.


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## Tim (Aug 24, 2012)

Andres said:


> Tim said:
> 
> 
> > the fact remains that there is always an option
> ...



All right then, but just watch as people offer reasons why these won't work. 

1. I would take into account transportation needs and distance to church before moving to a certain house/apartment;
2. Travel by public transport on Saturday, stay over with someone who lives near the church, and leave early Monday morning;
3. I suspect that some of the folks in Seoul will have cars. There is an enormous opportunity to minister to temporal needs here;
4. A church plant should be considered.


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## Tim (Aug 24, 2012)

I also know of a certain young man who used to ride his bike to the evening service in the rain, at night, in Cape Town, South Africa before he was eventually able to get a car.


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## Caroline (Aug 24, 2012)

Tim said:


> I also know of a certain young man who used to ride his bike to the evening service in the rain, at night, in Cape Town, South Africa before he was eventually able to get a car.



Good for him. He is very fortunate not to be elderly or disabled or have young children in those circumstances.


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## Caroline (Aug 24, 2012)

Tim said:


> Andres said:
> 
> 
> > Tim said:
> ...



Tim, no offense here, but the reason that you already know that they most likely won't work is because they most likely won't work. Go with your instincts on this one. And you'll notice the split in this discussion is between people who have actually lived in these situations and people who haven't. It is all rather silly when Americans with all their first-world resources and individualistic culture start dictating to other societies what they are and are not able to do.


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## Peairtach (Aug 24, 2012)

I have occasionally got a taxi to church when there was no other way, although I would rather not.

In a Christianised society there might have to be a skeleton public transport system on the Sabbath for works of necessity and mercy.

*Alan*


> Murray hinself would not take public transportation on the Lord's Day, but he did not think that it was a clear enough matter to make a disciplinable offense. His original denomination did, as Richard noted, and disqualified him as a ministerial student.



That was the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland, Texan Rose's denomination, and my former denomination.


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## Tim (Aug 24, 2012)

Caroline said:


> It is all rather silly when Americans with all their first-world resources and individualistic culture start dictating to other societies what they are and are not able to do.



The Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland has missions in Kenya and Zimbabwe. They are a denomination that holds a position against Sabbath public transport.


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## py3ak (Aug 24, 2012)

Tim said:


> All right then, but just watch as people offer reasons why these won't work.



If they offer good reasons doesn't that tell us something? If we had a really efficient robotic infrastructure then issues would be simple; but if wishes were horses, beggars would use their tricorders to summon a podcar to their doorstep which would whisk them on sleek monorails to the location of their choice.


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## Scott1 (Aug 24, 2012)

One other aspect to consider here, it has been touched on, but perhaps not enough.

Violating the sabbath in a situation like described above has the potential to cause to sin not only the person himself, not only the employee who would work convenience for them and thereby be hindered from keeping the sabbath themselves, but think of the testimony and witness to others of seeing obedience in difficult places (situations).

We need to consider all of this, not just ourselves, but love of neighbor, and the honor and glory of the Lord of the sabbath as witnessed to those who may not even believe.

The Christian life is not one of self-interested ease or convenience. It involves discipline and denial as the prophets, apostles and our Lord so often exemplified. And has God so often commands.

That's where we're growing in Christ, seeking to Love God and neighbor, and considering that first, even in situations where we might be at liberty, where we might suffer a bit, etc.

_*coram deo*_


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## OPC'n (Aug 24, 2012)

One of Tim's idea was good in that he could try and find a family to stay with on Saturday and leave early Monday. If that's not possible, then I think we should all consider "works of necessity" here. It's wrong to place too heavy of a burden on our brothers and sisters.


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## Scott1 (Aug 24, 2012)

OPC'n said:


> One of Tim's idea was good in that he could try and find a family to stay with on Saturday and leave early Monday. If that's not possible, then I think we should all consider "works of necessity" here. It's wrong to place too heavy of a burden on our brothers and sisters.



Yes, after we have considered and prepared, and applied by faith as best we can, we still might have a situation where it is practically impossible to avoid. An extraordinary, emergency or destitute circumstance, or even one where we really do not have control over the circumstance.

Then, and only then, after we have tried in good faith (and are praying even for future remedy), we can indeed, with a clear conscience, avail of the mercy and necessity that are established in the Command.

And thank our God for that!


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## jogri17 (Aug 24, 2012)

I've known Calvinists who believe that it is better to forsake public worship than use public transportation on the Lord's Day. That being said, if I can have a ride, I'll take it, but I live in a poorer area of the city and I a few private Bible studies with mentally ill and older people not near where my Church is. It is about 25-30 minutes by bus, but I'm the only member in the area.


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## Tim (Aug 24, 2012)

Let us remember that the original post focused on young believers in South Korea, not elderly or disabled folks in a third world country. We are so quick to offer extreme circumstances, which are then used to relax the care that is required in less challenging situations.

The exact same thing happened in this thread that discussed the Sabbath and restaurants.

My main point is that there is usually an option. One post above related how one congregation in Singapore (a city that is as congested and expensive as Seoul) provides a way for members to attend without using public transportation. I am personally aware that this is would also the case should the need arise in a certain congregation in London (also congested and expensive). These two examples should demonstrate that when a body of believers is committed to this matter of the 4th Commandment, much can be accomplished. 

I would still like to see how the FP Church does it in Kenya and Zimbabwe. I would think that their example in Africa would demonstrate how well we can take care of our own, even in the most challenged socio-economic circumstances.


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## Jaewon (Aug 24, 2012)

Thank you everyone for good discussion. It was helpful and interesting to read through the thread. Just as a footnote, I do use my family car right now and pick up one of the church members who lives in my neighborhood (and I make sure that I have enough gas before Lord's Day ). It only takes about 30 minutes driving, which is not too bad.


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## Alan D. Strange (Aug 24, 2012)

I chose not to mention Professor Murray's affiliation--the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland--simply because many are unfamiliar with its 1893 breakaway from the Free Church of Scotland and I didn't want to complicate things too much. But you are quite right, of course, Richard: this is one of the distinctives of the Wee Wee Frees (Free Presbyterians) over against the Wee Frees (Free Church). 

I repeat: it is a position to respect not ridicule. It is also not to be expected to be given much deference as it has been held by comparatively few, with most who are quite committedly confessional finding it not something worth breaking fellowship over, a matter of adiaphora about which we might respectfully differ. 

Peace,
Alan


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## Tim (Aug 24, 2012)

Jaewon said:


> Thank you everyone for good discussion. It was helpful and interesting to read through the thread. Just as a footnote, I do use my family car right now and pick up one of the church members who lives in my neighborhood (and I make sure that I have enough gas before Lord's Day ). It only takes about 30 minutes driving, which is not too bad.



It is wonderful to hear of your service to the brethren, and the preparation you make before each Lord's Day. 

Jaewon, are you in South Korea or Michigan right now? You should come by our way sometime. We would love to meet you!


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## Dordts5 (Aug 24, 2012)

Scott1 said:


> One other aspect to consider here, it has been touched on, but perhaps not enough.
> 
> Violating the sabbath in a situation like described above has the potential to cause to sin not only the person himself, not only the employee who would work convenience for them and thereby be hindered from keeping the sabbath themselves, but think of the testimony and witness to others of seeing obedience in difficult places (situations).
> 
> ...



Why can this specific example not be looked upon as public transportation being an act of mercy to the general public? Certainly, a police officer or a doctor, holding a "higher" societal position we have no problems speaking of their work on the Sabbath as being a work of mercy. A bus driver, and/or the transportation authority that he works for is providing the same act of kindness and work of mercy, just on a different level and scale. Would it be different if the transportation authority didn't charge money for their service? The argument becomes overwhelmingly stupefying if it goes there. The OP's heart is the matter here, not whether he does or doesn't ride in public transportation on Lord's Day. If his conscience tells him that he's exhausted the means by which he may use to enjoy corporate worship, that public transportation is the specific means by which he must use, then he should use it and count it a blessing that he is even able to worship the Lord corporately. 

That's my .02.


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## Jaewon (Aug 24, 2012)

Tim said:


> Jaewon, are you in South Korea or Michigan right now? You should come by our way sometime. We would love to meet you!



Mr. Lindsay, I am currently in South Korea for Summer break but am flying back to Michigan on 29th of August. I would love to meet you guys as well! Once I worshiped with First RP congregation in Grand Rapids, and I loved psalm-singing. It's great to sing from God's songbook.


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## Tim (Aug 24, 2012)

Please, do call me Tim. I haven't yet been to Grand Rapids, but I hope to visit sometime soon - I know several of the folks at the RP congregation there.


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## TexanRose (Aug 25, 2012)

The FP congregations in Africa also provide transport to and from their services if needed. Several of the congregations there have buses. I would assume that the buses were purchased with donated funds.


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## Andres (Aug 25, 2012)

Tim said:


> Andres said:
> 
> 
> > Tim said:
> ...



Tim, thank you for sharing these other options. I had not considered any of them previously, but I think they are all excellent options. Yes, we acknowlege that there is a possibility that they may not work for our brother in Korea, but I do appreciate you giving him something to consider. I will have to side with Tim at this point in that it seems too many people will not even consider these other options. Let us remember the WCF 21.8 teaches:



> 8. This Sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, *and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, *do not only observe an holy rest, all the day, from their own works, words, and thoughts about their worldly employments and recreations, but also are taken up, the whole time, in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.



We are to called to make due preparations beforehand, so let us be careful not to dismiss an option simply because it may require a bit of planning and work on our part.


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## Andres (Aug 25, 2012)

Jaewon said:


> I do use my family car right now and pick up one of the church members who lives in my neighborhood (and I make sure that I have enough gas before Lord's Day ). It only takes about 30 minutes driving, which is not too bad.



Bless you brother. You are to be commended for your efforts to honor the Lord's Day.


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## Scott1 (Aug 25, 2012)

comment below



Dordts5 said:


> Scott1 said:
> 
> 
> > One other aspect to consider here, it has been touched on, but perhaps not enough.
> ...


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## Tim (Aug 25, 2012)

TexanRose said:


> The FP congregations in Africa also provide transport to and from their services if needed. Several of the congregations there have buses. I would assume that the buses were purchased with donated funds.



Thank-you, Sharon for providing this information. The practice of the missions in Africa go a long way to demonstrate what can be done if a body is committed to remembering the Sabbath in this way.


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## a mere housewife (Aug 25, 2012)

Tim said:


> Let us remember that the original post focused on young believers in South Korea, not elderly or disabled folks in a third world country. We are so quick to offer extreme circumstances, which are then used to relax the care that is required in less challenging situations.



Tim and Jaewon, I'm sorry if I was one of those who took the thread off track.

I mentioned particulars of a situation where options are not there, because I think that we ought to always realise in these matters that some things are more necessary in some situations than others, and we from outside the situation are not always able to make that call. If a denomination that holds to this position will provide for its poorer churches to have transit service that is truly wonderful and commendable. When people who hold to this position begin to speak in terms of how brothers and sisters in other denominations or churches ought to be put under discipline for getting to church by public transit, at that point I do begin either to laugh or cry. That would effectively destroy many poor third world churches, 'rich in faith'. Gratefully, no one has spoken so here. As I first had any encounter with such statements in Mexico, while part of a body of believers who are the most gentle, meek, joyful, faith filled brothers and sisters I have ever known, it is hard for me to always keep things separate in my mind. Tim, I mean no offense (I admire you for defending your position here) in trying to clarify that I am not sure that 'ridiculous' is not a much milder charge than 'so sinful one should be excommunicated from the table of Lord', which is perhaps what others have also associated with this position -- I do not think the conscientious position of not taking public transit on the Sabbath ridiculous. I can't say that I think such a charge against a poor brother or sister in Christ should not be considered so. But again, no such charges were made here and I do not think the puritanboard has ever been a very great medium for them: most of the participants here hold and defend their views too carefully and charitably -- as you, Sharon, and others do.  I pray God will bless you and bless your Lord's day tomorrow.


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## OPC'n (Aug 25, 2012)

Heidi, I don't think you took the thread off tract, but instead, added to it. We should always remember our brothers and sisters who are poor and who are suffering for Christ's name. We should remember that God has placed each person in their own particular situation, and those of us whom he has blessed with larger amounts of money should reach out to these brethren and give to missionary work so they can buy things like transportation.


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## Tim (Aug 25, 2012)

Heidi, no, you were not off track. It's fine. 

Regarding discipline, I don't know the particulars about how discipline is practiced in said denomination, but we also need to remember that discipline is not only excommunication from the Table. That is the final and extreme result of disobedience, not the initial response. Discipline is something we are all under as members of Christ's church. It involves gentle and sensitive teaching about the precepts of God. It would also involve the mandate to provide transportation to those who don't have it. 

I remember being invited for lunch on the Sabbath by a young man. I was pleased to accept, but quickly learned that he was planning to order a pizza for our meal. Should he have immediately been barred from the Lord's Table? After all, he was a member of that confessional church. No, the proper response was to explain to him the substance of that commandment, with reference to the confession, and to then exhort him to search the scriptures to see if what I was saying was correct. He clearly hadn't thought about it before. That was "discipline" - it was informal (I was not an elder), and it was mild.

The point is that we must exercise discipline that is commensurate with where the individual is in their Christian walk, and do whatever it takes to make it very possible to abide by the doctrinal position of the church, and, ultimately, scripture.


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## he beholds (Aug 25, 2012)

Dordts5 said:


> bookslover said:
> 
> 
> > he beholds said:
> ...



I doubt it meant he was too lazy, since it meant so much to him that he skipped church over it, but that he probably made a completely accidental mistake. That does happen. 



Tim said:


> I also know of a certain young man who used to ride his bike to the evening service in the rain, at night, in Cape Town, South Africa before he was eventually able to get a car.


That sounds like way more work to me than any of the options we've been discussing.


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## Tim (Aug 25, 2012)

he beholds said:


> Tim said:
> 
> 
> > I also know of a certain young man who used to ride his bike to the evening service in the rain, at night, in Cape Town, South Africa before he was eventually able to get a car.
> ...



It wasn't easy...I mean...the young man told me that it wasn't easy, but he did what it took to get to church.


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## Peairtach (Aug 25, 2012)

Alan D. Strange said:


> I chose not to mention Professor Murray's affiliation--the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland--simply because many are unfamiliar with its 1893 breakaway from the Free Church of Scotland and I didn't want to complicate things too much. But you are quite right, of course, Richard: this is one of the distinctives of the Wee Wee Frees (Free Presbyterians) over against the Wee Frees (Free Church).
> 
> I repeat: it is a position to respect not ridicule. It is also not to be expected to be given much deference as it has been held by comparatively few, with most who are quite committedly confessional finding it not something worth breaking fellowship over, a matter of adiaphora about which we might respectfully differ.
> 
> ...



There are many Free Kirk people that will eschew all public transport in every circumstance on the Lord's Day too. It just hasn't been promulgated as something that _must_ be followed by communicant members, but has been left to the individual conscience in the light of Scripture. 



> the Wee Wee Frees (Free Presbyterians) over against the Wee Frees (Free Church).



As far as I'm aware these expressions were promulgated, if not invented, by journalists. After the majority of the Old Free Kirk formed the theologically compromised United Free Church with the United Presbyterian Church in 1900, the minority who remained uncompromising on the WCF were called the Wee Frees. The FP Church is sometimes called the Wee Wee Frees because it happens to be presently smaller than the Free Church. We tolerate these expressions, usually without demur, although they are often used in a snide manner.

The position of not taking public transport, even if it is the only way of getting to church, has the advantage that you do not feel you may be inadvertently giving succour to the present world system.


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## Alan D. Strange (Aug 25, 2012)

Peairtach said:


> There are many Free Kirk people that will eschew all public transport in every circumstance on the Lord's Day too. It just hasn't been promulgated as something that must be followed by communicant members, but has been left to the individual conscience in the light of Scripture.



Richard:

I deeply appreciate your further clarification and am glad to hear it.

With respect to the Wee and Wee Wee Free comments I meant no disrespect in the slightest. Please forgive me. I know that those designations have been used over here in distinguishing the denominations and I was unaware of any offensive meanings attached to them. I should have been more careful and I will make sure not to do that again, certainly not in writing. Thanks for your graciousness with respect to that.

Peace,
Alan


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## Peairtach (Aug 25, 2012)

Alan D. Strange said:


> Peairtach said:
> 
> 
> > There are many Free Kirk people that will eschew all public transport in every circumstance on the Lord's Day too. It just hasn't been promulgated as something that must be followed by communicant members, but has been left to the individual conscience in the light of Scripture.
> ...



No offense was taken. I was just explaining further. It's difficult to communicate everything online. I should use "smileys" more often


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## newcreature (Aug 25, 2012)

Tim said:


> Heidi, no, you were not off track. It's fine.
> 
> Regarding discipline, I don't know the particulars about how discipline is practiced in said denomination, but we also need to remember that discipline is not only excommunication from the Table. That is the final and extreme result of disobedience, not the initial response. Discipline is something we are all under as members of Christ's church. It involves gentle and sensitive teaching about the precepts of God. It would also involve the mandate to provide transportation to those who don't have it.
> 
> ...



Tim, indeed, both this thread and the recent thread on eating at restaurants on the Lord's Day, have been discipline to me. For sure, I thought that I was keeping the Sabbath by going to church on Sunday. But it has not been uncommon for my family to do our laundry, eat at restaurants, or even do the grocery shopping after church. In fact, one of the favorite pastimes has been enjoying a Falcons game after church. I have really had to rethink what it means to keep the Sabbath holy. I am truly thankful for the discussions here on the Puritan Board, for all the brothers and sisters, like yourself, who are not afraid to challenge us to think deeply about how we can best honor God.


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## thbslawson (Aug 25, 2012)

TexanRose said:


> I would not take public transport to get to church on the Sabbath day. Yes, churches ought to provide carpools for those who don't have private transportation. The Free Presbyterian congregation in Singapore, for instance, has invested in two vans, which are driven by volunteers.



So, that's assuming every church has the money to purchase large vans and the hundreds in fuel it costs to provide transport. It's so easy to throw this around in the western world where churches typically have money and owning a vehicle is the norm. This is not the case for the majority of Christians. To me it seems pretty arrogant to insist to a brother or sister in a foreign country, where they have no other means of being with God's people on the Lord's Day, than to take public transport is breaking the Sabbath. Public transportation for most of the world is a necessity. If you would not take public transport then I suggest you also refrain from turning on your lights or the water.


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## Tim (Aug 26, 2012)

thbslawson said:


> So, that's assuming every church has the money to purchase large vans and the hundreds in fuel it costs to provide transport. It's so easy to throw this around in the western world where churches typically have money and owning a vehicle is the norm. This is not the case for the majority of Christians. To me it seems pretty arrogant to insist to a brother or sister in a foreign country, where they have no other means of being with God's people on the Lord's Day, than to take public transport is breaking the Sabbath. Public transportation for most of the world is a necessity. If you would not take public transport then I suggest you also refrain from turning on your lights or the water.



Sir, that wasn't charitable, and I suggest that you read the entire thread - especially examples that have been given regarding third world countries.


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## thbslawson (Aug 26, 2012)

Tim said:


> thbslawson said:
> 
> 
> > So, that's assuming every church has the money to purchase large vans and the hundreds in fuel it costs to provide transport. It's so easy to throw this around in the western world where churches typically have money and owning a vehicle is the norm. This is not the case for the majority of Christians. To me it seems pretty arrogant to insist to a brother or sister in a foreign country, where they have no other means of being with God's people on the Lord's Day, than to take public transport is breaking the Sabbath. Public transportation for most of the world is a necessity. If you would not take public transport then I suggest you also refrain from turning on your lights or the water.
> ...



Tim, I apologize for sounding uncharitable. It was not my intent. 

I have read the other posts. Not to sound unkind, but I would assert that it is equally uncharitable to lay a burden upon a brother's conscience on this issue. If you insist that "There's always another option" then you imply that the Christian who must buy a bus token on Sunday has sinned because he or she has not worked hard enough or tried hard enough to find a way to get to church. There isn't, as you assert "Always another way" and I know this from experience. Objections can be made to your other suggestions because they are real objections.


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## crixus (Aug 26, 2012)

Alan D. Strange said:


> I chose not to mention Professor Murray's affiliation--the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland--simply because many are unfamiliar with its 1893 breakaway from the Free Church of Scotland and I didn't want to complicate things too much. But you are quite right, of course, Richard: this is one of the distinctives of the Wee Wee Frees (Free Presbyterians) over against the Wee Frees (Free Church).
> 
> I repeat: it is a position to respect not ridicule. It is also not to be expected to be given much deference as it has been held by comparatively few, with most who are quite committedly confessional finding it not something worth breaking fellowship over, a matter of adiaphora about which we might respectfully differ.
> 
> ...



There is a Free Church of Scotland affiliated church here in America. It's called the Presbyterian Free Church of Livonia, which is a suburb of Detroit, Michigan. I mention it just in case there's anyone using this board from that area who is looking for a church? I know if I lived near there I'd definitely give them a visit.


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## Tim (Aug 26, 2012)

thbslawson said:


> I have read the other posts. Not to sound unkind, but I would assert that it is equally uncharitable to lay a burden upon a brother's conscience on this issue. If you insist that "There's always another option" then you imply that the Christian who must buy a bus token on Sunday has sinned because he or she has not worked hard enough or tried hard enough to find a way to get to church. There isn't, as you assert "Always another way" and I know this from experience. Objections can be made to your other suggestions because they are real objections.



You will notice that the very same denomination that holds this position strictly (no public transport on the Sabbath) has also been reported in this thread to provide a means for congregation members to travel on the Sabbath without using public transport. And this includes reports concerning some of the most expensive cities in the world, as well as third world countries.

That is neither uncharitable nor arrogant.


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## Tim (Aug 26, 2012)

newcreature said:


> Tim, indeed, both this thread and the recent thread on eating at restaurants on the Lord's Day, have been discipline to me. For sure, I thought that I was keeping the Sabbath by going to church on Sunday. But it has not been uncommon for my family to do our laundry, eat at restaurants, or even do the grocery shopping after church. In fact, one of the favorite pastimes has been enjoying a Falcons game after church. I have really had to rethink what it means to keep the Sabbath holy. I am truly thankful for the discussions here on the Puritan Board, for all the brothers and sisters, like yourself, who are not afraid to challenge us to think deeply about how we can best honor God.



This is wonderful to hear. Thanks for your encouragement. There is great blessing in the Sabbath and I continue to seek it.


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## py3ak (Aug 26, 2012)

Tim, obviously the practice of the FPCoS is good. I think the real difficulty for me was your assertion "there is always another option". There is often another option: and the input of our brethren and the help of those of like faith may serve to expand those options beyond what we would have considered. But that is not "always". 

We acknowledge, however, that sometimes there is no option for someone to make it to church at all: someone who is bedridden, someone who is hospitalized, someone who is quarantined, or contagious, or imprisoned, or unexpectedly and enormously delayed for international travel, or who is run off the road on the way to church, etc., etc., etc. Absent a _promise_ that we will always be able to make it to church, there is clearly no promise that we will always be able to make it to church without using public transportation.

If going to church is a work of necessity, so that even strenuous physical labor is permitted (though not encouraged) in order to arrive (as in the instance of your bicycling friend), then other means to that end may also need to be permitted (though not encouraged).


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## bookslover (Aug 26, 2012)

Here's Iain H. Murray (no relation to JM) on John Murray and his original denomination's attitude regarding using public transportation on Sundays: _Although unable, himself, to use public transport in good conscience on the Lord's Day, he believed that it was going beyond the authority of Scripture to turn away from the Lord's Table someone who gave evidence of love to Christ solely because they had used a tram or bus to make their attendance possible...It was clear, however, to John Murray - notwithstanding the pleas and reasoning of friends - that he could only uphold the discipline required by the Synod at the price of disobedience to his own conscience._ From: _The Life of John Murray_ by Iain H. Murray (Edinburgh: The Banner of Truth Trust, 1982), pp. 35-36. This took place in the summer of 1927.


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## bookslover (Aug 27, 2012)

Dordts5 said:


> bookslover said:
> 
> 
> > he beholds said:
> ...



Two thoughts: (1) if Jesus could tell a man to "take up his pallet and go home" (isn't carrying something "work"?) on the Sabbath, then surely buying gas on Sunday would be no big deal. (2) If Satan can get a Christian to stay away from church from feeling false guilt about buying gas on Sunday, then he's done his job.

Also: how many of the "work" prohibitions carry over from the Sabbath to the Lord's Day? Isn't there a distinction between the two? And, if so, how big is the distinction?


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## DeniseM (Aug 27, 2012)

thbslawson said:


> TexanRose said:
> 
> 
> > I would not take public transport to get to church on the Sabbath day. Yes, churches ought to provide carpools for those who don't have private transportation. The Free Presbyterian congregation in Singapore, for instance, has invested in two vans, which are driven by volunteers.
> ...



This doesn't seem like it would be quite the problem that you are posing if the church in question adheres to a presbyterian form of church government. We don't necessarily need to view this as a problem of one isolated congregation. In context of presbyterian church government the congregation, with members that are struggling to get to church without relying on public transportation, could appeal to the presbytery for funds for a transport vehicle, if they were not able to purchase one themselves. We used to pick up a man, who visited our church regularly for a time, almost every Lord's day. He could have just as easily hopped on the bus and been free to come and go as he pleased, without relying on us, but we were happy to provide a ride for him. It does seem that the 'works of necessity' to our brethren aught to be carried out by the household of faith, as much as possible, as we are commanded to bear one another's burdens.


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## Peairtach (Aug 27, 2012)

bookslover said:


> Dordts5 said:
> 
> 
> > bookslover said:
> ...



They all carry over In my humble opinion, but the Jewish interpretations of them are classically erroneous and legalistic.



> (1) if Jesus could tell a man to "take up his pallet and go home" (isn't carrying something "work"?) on the Sabbath, then surely buying gas on Sunday would be no big deal.



Carrying your bed home with you wasn't forbidden by Moses but by the legalistic interpretations and additions of the Pharisees. Works of necessity and mercy aren't forbidden in Moses, but engaging in and encouraging regular work is.

We can discuss the various points that Moses makes about _how_ to observe the Sabbath on another thread, and I can indicate to you other threads that deal with this and problematic Jewish interpretations. Moses and Christ agree on how to observe the Sabbath.


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## kvanlaan (Aug 27, 2012)

> Tim, no offense here, but the reason that you already know that they most likely won't work is because they most likely won't work. Go with your instincts on this one. And you'll notice the split in this discussion is between people who have actually lived in these situations and people who haven't. It is all rather silly when Americans with all their first-world resources and individualistic culture start dictating to other societies what they are and are not able to do.



We lived in China for over a decade where people were also 99% unable to buy a car, but we all took taxis to church and thought nothing of it. There was one church in this city of 11 million people. For us, the walk would have been two hours each way and meant that we would have had many small children in tow, a dangerous situation if you know the city we were in.

That being said, it was not our lack of opportunity to travel by foot or some other conveyance, it was the fact that it was inconvenient to do it in some other manner. Just trying to get a half dozen children out the door for church was a trial every Sunday morning, never mind getting them there by foot or bike (which we did indeed do for a while in summers when weather permitted). In Ethiopia where some of our children are from, walking 10km is no big deal (and that's in a mountainous country, no sidewalks, and altitude changes of several hundred feet in both directions along the way). We simply don't bother with it any more, we live in a different world. But I know of those who do live in poverty and would probably ask me why it was that I would take every precaution available not to break the 7th commandment, while I am so lax with the 4th. I don't really have an answer for that.


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## JennyG (Aug 28, 2012)

Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way round, but is it really a given that to avail oneself of a service that will be run anyway, and almost certainly by non-Christians, is worse than working one's socks off to manage without??
If it were possible, I would want Sunday to be free of the kind of effort and hassle that the week is full of. It's already enough of a task just having to travel miles to church. After all, a "Sabbath day's journey" in the Bible means something very short, and Sunday travelling of any kind was frowned on until very recent times.
So in a way it's a new situation that for many people now there is no decent church within a reasonable distance. It means that two almost incompatible objectives (keeping Sunday free of toil and striving on the one hand; finding an orthodox church to worship in on the other) just have to be balanced the best way they can.


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## Scott1 (Aug 28, 2012)

A few thoughts.




JennyG said:


> Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way round, but is it really a given that to avail oneself of a service that will be run anyway,
> 
> The issue is creating demand for our convenience that causes:
> 
> ...



One other observation, not categorically true, not in every case, but people tend to get what they really want. If they really want to obey God and spend time worshipping Him one day in seven in way they can't the other days of the week, they will order there life around making it happen.

God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.



> Hebrews 11:6
> But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


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## davenporter (Aug 28, 2012)

I agree with most of what has been discussed in this thread. I think there certainly should be an exception for necessity, when it really is necessary, but otherwise, of course, we should avoid public transportation on the Sabbath. Certainly it is not possible in every instance to avoid using public transportation, but ideally one would desire that as an option.

I think that, however, an important point has been brought up. It is my personal view that necessity requires anything necessary to concern yourself primarily with spending the whole of the day in the worship of the Lord, rather than focally avoiding doing work yourself or causing work for others. Certainly both elements are present and required, but the worship of the Lord in personal, family, and corporate worship takes the prime position over the avoidance of common work.

With that in mind, I think that if a person finds himself in a season where the options are walking 2+ hours each way to attend church so that 4+ hours of the day is spent walking (and tiring oneself and one's family) or using public transportation, the best option to me seems to be to use public transportation. Of course, I certainly don't deny that one ought to seek a better option, such as a ride from someone at church or seeking to advance in work so that he can afford a car, but I think that avoiding 3+ hours of tiresome work/walking so that time can be devoted to family or personal worship is preferable (and merciful to your family) and less distracting to your overall sanctification of the day. Otherwise I can't imagine how one could possibly fit all those blessed duties the Puritans encouraged/commanded on the Sabbath into a day. I know it's not merciful to the bus driver, but I still think it's the best option in such a scenario. One should interact with their elders if in such a situation to seek a remedy.

Going back to the guy who didn't go to public worship because he failed to buy gas on Saturday, one sin doesn't justify another. The sin wouldn't be purchasing gas on the Sabbath (for it has become a necessity), the sin would be failing to prepare for the Sabbath. In his case, he is committing another sin by refusing to go to Lord's Day worship. I think this may apply to many cases we may find ourselves in. If something is required to get you to Sunday worship, it's a necessity on that day. If you failed to prepare beforehand, I think your sin was failure to prepare beforehand, rather than going and purchasing gas or food (for your wife and kids; perhaps if you're the one who is hungry it can be a lesson to you) on that day.

Anyway, those are my thoughts as a recently-converted Sabbatarian.

And yes, it is important to trust God to provide, but that often takes time, and certainly takes personal effort in addition to prayer. If you're an introvert or you don't like asking other people for things, it'll be a challenge you'll have to work through, which would be a good thing to go to your elders or deacons about.


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## Scott1 (Aug 28, 2012)

davenporter said:


> Anyway, those are my thoughts as a recently-converted Sabbatarian.



Many of us don't accept this as a term, following God's fourth commandment, 
any more than keeping the tenth commandment makes one a "covetarian."

It's simply a matter of trying, by God's grace to obey Him, His moral law binding on all men in all generations, summarily comprehended in the ten commandments.... all of them.


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## davenporter (Aug 29, 2012)

Scott1 said:


> Many of us don't accept this as a term, following God's fourth commandment,
> any more than keeping the tenth commandment makes one a "covetarian."



I agree with what you're trying to say, but to me it's just a term that's necessary to make distinctions, like "Calvinist". Obviously Calvinism is Biblical, but unfortunately no one knows what "Biblical" means anymore so you have to call yourself a Confessional Calvinist Presbyterian.  I hope everyone understood my point. I took the non-Sabbatarian position previously, but I have recently recognized it is Biblical.


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## OPC'n (Aug 29, 2012)

This thread has the energy of the energizer bunny!


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## darrellmaurina (Aug 30, 2012)

I know the situation in Seoul and I realize Jaewon has a legitimate problem which will be faced by very few people in North America.

The last time I ever used public transport on the Lord's Day was in 1997 and it was in Seoul. I was very unhappy about using the subway on the Lord's Day, but my Korean friends did not own cars, and getting someone else from the church to drive halfway across the city to pick a "nurangmori" (foreigner) up for church was not an option. I can't think of any other time in at least twenty years that I've used public transport on the Lord's Day, and I would not have let that situation continue on a long-term basis.

I agree with Prof. Murray that using public transport on the Lord's Day is wrong because it forces others to work, but is not in and of itself a disciplinable offense.

This is not a hypothetical issue for me -- I've been threatened numerous times in my life with being fired for refusal to work on the Lord's Day, and while in each case my employer did back down when I told them they could fire me if they wanted but I would never agree to their demands, that was usually after I offered to work on the worst possible shifts that everybody else hated. (There are legal reasons why that offer also needs to be made, and putting copies of relevant court decisions on my employer's desk didn't hurt.) While I have never been fired for refusal to work on the Lord's Day, I have been denied promotions for refusal to work on the Lord's Day and have been told on several occasions that the only reason I was not hired for certain jobs was my refusal to work on the Lord's Day.

Something more needs to be said on this issue, however. Once I got into salaried rather than hourly positions, I became well-known for working hundred-hour weeks six days per week but absolutely refusing to work one minute on the Lord's Day. People who have conscientious objections to working on the Lord's Day need to be prepared to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt to their employer that they value hard work on six days per week just as much as they value not working one day in seven. Generally employers are much more willing to accommodate the refusal of a hard worker to work one day per week that they would be willing to accommodate a refusal from someone they consider to be a slacker or even a relatively hard-working employee. Quite frankly, the sort of hours most Americans work today aren't even close to what was considered standard a few generations ago, and we as Christians need to consider whether what passes for good work ethics today would have been viewed very differently in the 1800s or earlier.

Back to the main point -- let's be grateful for Jaewon's desire to follow biblical principles on this matter. His efforts to pick other people up using a private car for church are to be commended.

Rather than trying to find exception cases where public transport may be the least bad of bad options, perhaps it would be better, when confronted with such situations, to focus our efforts on trying to find solutions to the problem.


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## timmopussycat (Aug 30, 2012)

For those who believe it is a sin to use public transportation on the Lord's day, why is it not a sin to drive one's own or one's church's vehicle on the Lord's day? Just curious. (Since the Orchid Lady and I need only walk 5 blocks to our church, we do not encounter the problem.)


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## davenporter (Aug 30, 2012)

timmopussycat said:


> For those who believe it is a sin to use public transportation on the Lord's day, why is it not a sin to drive one's own or one's church's vehicle on the Lord's day? Just curious. (Since the Orchid Lady and I live 5 blocks from our church, we do not encounter the problem.)



Because in driving yourself you're not forcing anyone else to work; you're simply doing an "act of necessity" for yourself and your family.


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## Peairtach (Aug 30, 2012)

davenporter said:


> timmopussycat said:
> 
> 
> > For those who believe it is a sin to use public transportation on the Lord's day, why is it not a sin to drive one's own or one's church's vehicle on the Lord's day? Just curious. (Since the Orchid Lady and I live 5 blocks from our church, we do not encounter the problem.)
> ...



It's not just that.

You are encouraging the bus and taxi companies and their drivers in their laying on of a Sunday service for all sorts of purposes. It would be a very different thing if a skeleton service was laid on by taxi companies or bus companies specifically for people who needed to get to church. One could imagine a Sabbatarian bus tycoon doing this, or this happening in a thoroughly Christianised society.


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## Mushroom (Aug 31, 2012)

We should be grateful to God that our lives are _so_ blessed that the hardships we are presently called to endure are so inconsequential that this sort of an issue rises to the point of being worthy of such intense discussion.


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## he beholds (Aug 31, 2012)

darrellmaurina said:


> I agree with Prof. Murray that using public transport on the Lord's Day is wrong because it forces others to work, but is not in and of itself a disciplinable offense.



Are other breakings of the Sabbath disciplinable? I just have a hard time thinking it's a sin to use public transport on Sunday if you live in a society where public transport is THE way people move. Or if you are poor and don't own a car. And if it is wrong, but not disciplinable even after weekly breaking, I don't get that dichotomy, either.
If I were to get on a bus to get to church on Sunday morning, my only thought would be "How annoying is this?" So yes, I'd be sinning in my attitude toward a blessing. But it would not cross my mind that to use the bus, that would be already running where I need it to go, is a sin.


darrellmaurina said:


> Rather than trying to find exception cases where public transport may be the least bad of bad options, perhaps it would be better, when confronted with such situations, to focus our efforts on trying to find solutions to the problem.


 In my society, public transport is not a reality. I don't live in a city and we have two cars, etc. BUT, were I to live in a city where public transport was readily available, I think it'd actually possibly be good stewardship to NOT own a car. If we're OK with using the electricity that keeps people working, we should feel the same way about other public works. It IS possible for a society to have a Sabbath mode as far as electricity, traffic-lights, cops, etc. We could halt everything but emergencies in the public sphere. Are we going to argue that this is the best way? Even so, are we going to protest it by not using the things that will be used anyway--such as electricity OR public transport--because we think the idea of them are wrong? It is not a necessity for me to use the lights or the oven or the crockpot of Sunday. Since I am not personally, or singularly, causing the electric company to work I feel that my using them is not contributing to their decision to work. BUT, I think it is possibly true that if all of us in a society agreed not to drive or use lights, we could contribute to the ease of labor for some. 

I'm just trying to say, it is the same thing. 
I like this:


Dordts5 said:


> Why can this specific example not be looked upon as public transportation being an act of mercy to the general public? Certainly, a police officer or a doctor, holding a "higher" societal position we have no problems speaking of their work on the Sabbath as being a work of mercy. A bus driver, and/or the transportation authority that he works for is providing the same act of kindness and work of mercy, just on a different level and scale.


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## Scott1 (Aug 31, 2012)

Brad said:


> We should be grateful to God that our lives are _so_ blessed that the hardships we are presently called to endure are so inconsequential that this sort of an issue rises to the point of being worthy of such intense discussion.



Yes!

And this is the point, obedient people want to serve and obey their God who has bought them with price and told them they must deny themselves and take up their cross daily.

So the energy, and focus is not looking for (or justifying) excuses to disobey, or hinder others from obeying but rather,
how can I obey, not hinder others from obeying and be different from this world, which knows not God, nor His ways.



> Luke 9:23
> And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.





> Deuteronomy 5
> 
> 14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, *nor thy stranger that is within thy gates*; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.
> 
> 15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.





> IICorinthians 6:17
> Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.


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## Raj (Sep 1, 2012)

Friends, walking or taking a public means of transportation to worship the Lord and hear His Word is not sin. 

From our experience: We have several men and women who regularly walk in our worship in Nepal and in the hills of Himalayas. Some of them walk 2-3 hrs every Sunday/Saturday. I also remember about one of our believers who walked 21 kilometers on foot to take Lord's Supper every three months. To come to worship for him, it was 5 kilometers walk every Saturday for worship. 

Many servants of the Lord here ride bicycle and walk on foot to go to teach and preach on Saturday/Sunday. 

While doing anything or making a decision we should focus on the context and motives of the action. Keep on going to the worship of our Lord dear friend. He will make your paths smoother in the days to come.


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## Mushroom (Sep 1, 2012)

Amen, Raj! It was situations like you describe, and experience everyday, that were on my mind when I read this thread. Comfort and prosperity can give rise to frivolous concerns. It must seem very silly to you, brother, and it embarasses me for the Church in the parts of this world that presently find greater liberty and prosperity. We can busy ourselves with incidentals and lose sight of things that matter.


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