# Tolerating others' traditions



## Rich Koster (Apr 11, 2009)

Most of us, at one time or another, will find ourselves being "the new kid on the block" in a congregation. While the barfy icon comes to mind instantly on some things, others just generate curiosity and conversation. What issues would you draw the line on and depart and what issues would you tolerate in hope that others would come around to agree with you?


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## creformed01 (Apr 11, 2009)

Rich Koster said:


> Most of us, at one time or another, will find ourselves being "the new kid on the block" in a congregation. While the barfy icon comes to mind instantly on some things, others just generate curiosity and conversation. What issues would you draw the line on and depart and what issues would you tolerate in hope that others would come around to agree with you?



I have had the honor of enjoying other traditions and even eating and drinking with them--we should always Love other people--regardless of culture or even religion. 

I was in India once and drew the line on becoming a hindu, thank you very much however i did enjoy the people for being who they were. Mine was a witness to them of the love of Jesus who himself ate with sinners.

A little love and respect for others go a long way. I find that most of my encounters have been very good opportunities to see how others live

I was surprised that many of them were seeking something better, spiritually. I learned from them how to be more hospitable, i, in return shared the Gospel with them.

so, the bottom line I guess is learn to appreciate other cultures, but do not let the culture influence you nor become part of the culture.


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## LadyFlynt (Apr 11, 2009)

creformed01 said:


> Rich Koster said:
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> > Most of us, at one time or another, will find ourselves being "the new kid on the block" in a congregation. While the barfy icon comes to mind instantly on some things, others just generate curiosity and conversation. What issues would you draw the line on and depart and what issues would you tolerate in hope that others would come around to agree with you?
> ...



 Was he speaking of Cultural Traditions or Church Traditions?


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## toddpedlar (Apr 11, 2009)

LadyFlynt said:


> creformed01 said:
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My guess is, rather, that Rich was talking about dealing with practices in the church like Easter Egg Hunts and Passover celebrations, and not whether one can eat a Lebanese supper with the Lebanese immigrants down the street...


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## Rich Koster (Apr 11, 2009)

toddpedlar said:


> LadyFlynt said:
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Rich says yup, I guess I should have been more precise


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## LadyFlynt (Apr 11, 2009)

There are certain traditions that I avoid participating in. If others hold to these traditions, then I have learned to hold my tongue unless someone asks me about my stand or it is part of the conversation. Unfortunately, just stating that we don't do *name a tradition* will many times bring the conversation to a screeching halt. I respect their differing views, though I don't agree with them and simply request the same respect back.


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## Herald (Apr 11, 2009)

Below are non-negotiable items where there is more than one Christian church in the area. 

1. Approach to teaching the Word of God. Do the pastor and elders consider the bible to be _the_ Word of God, and the sole authority for all matters of faith an practice?

2. Proper view and administration of the ordinances/sacraments.

3. Holding to the doctrines of grace.

4. Commitment to the RPW in most facets of worship.

5. Non-antagonistic view of the Lord's Day

For me, the above is the minimum I would accept in a church. Now, if I lived in an area where I had no choice as to what church I would attend, I would need to determine whether the churches in the area are Christian churches. If at least one of those choices fit my definition of a Christian church, I would worship and fellowship with the saints.


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## Rich Koster (Apr 11, 2009)

Herald said:


> Below are non-negotiable items where there is more than one Christian church in the area.
> 
> 1. Approach to teaching the Word of God. Do the pastor and elders consider the bible to be _the_ Word of God, and the sole authority for all matters of faith an practice?
> 
> ...



Would you elaborate on #5 for me?


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2009)

Herald said:


> Below are non-negotiable items where there is more than one Christian church in the area.
> 
> 1. Approach to teaching the Word of God. Do the pastor and elders consider the bible to be _the_ Word of God, and the sole authority for all matters of faith an practice?
> 
> ...



Could you translate #5? It's not clear what you are saying. 

I'd trade off 4 for a church that practices proper discipline. I could put up with an occasional 'liturgical dancer' if I'm getting good teaching from the pulpit, proper administration of the sacraments, and good church discipline.


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## Theoretical (Apr 11, 2009)

For #5

I'm going to give it a shot.

Basically, it's a church that does not discriminate against Sabbatarians. 

Even assuming that it is *JUST* a Romans 14 scruple, most churches I've observed make no to minimal provision for those of stricter views while having no objection to those who are non-Sabbatarianism, with the possible exception of one scheduling his job to take place during morning worship. Most churches I've seen essentially hold to a least common denominator position with their non-Sabbatarianism, accommodating non-Sabbatarians or those holding not very strict views, but making little to no provision for those who have stricter views. Those without families are often especially on their own.

An example of such a provision would be occasionally fixing a meal at home, inviting a scrupling brother/sister who abstains on the Lords day and who is not able to normally join you and your family when going out to eat. One of the few good examples I've read was where Prufrock in another thread mentioned how his church allowed him and several others to stay at the church building, cook a little meal and fellowship together in the afternoon to accommodate their stricter standards. This is quite alien to what I've observed in several different congregations.


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## Herald (Apr 11, 2009)

Edward said:


> Herald said:
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> > Below are non-negotiable items where there is more than one Christian church in the area.
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It's a minority of Baptist churches that hold to a pro-sabbatarian view by the pastor and elders. At a minimum I would not want an antagonistic response to my keeping the sabbath.


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## Rich Koster (Apr 13, 2009)

Herald said:


> Edward said:
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I have found the ones that I have been part of do not badger people for being at either end of the spectrum. The only time I ever heard a fuss was when someone tried to bring up the Saturday or 7th day issue.


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## ReformedChapin (Apr 13, 2009)

I've visted RCC, Calvary Chapel, PCA, Penecostal, Messianic, Baptisit churches. I always try to be respectful of everyones tradition even if I disagree with some of the methods. It's just interesting to see why certain people do certain things.


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## Rich Koster (Apr 13, 2009)

ReformedChapin said:


> I've visted RCC, Calvary Chapel, PCA, Penecostal, Messianic, Baptisit churches. I always try to be respectful of everyones tradition even if I disagree with some of the methods. It's just interesting to see why certain people do certain things.



When you see something quite odd, do you ever probe for background info, a history lesson or a scriptural reason why it is done? I'm known for asking questions.


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## ReformedChapin (Apr 16, 2009)

Rich Koster said:


> ReformedChapin said:
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> > I've visted RCC, Calvary Chapel, PCA, Penecostal, Messianic, Baptisit churches. I always try to be respectful of everyones tradition even if I disagree with some of the methods. It's just interesting to see why certain people do certain things.
> ...



Yes, I was interested in several traditions before I become into the reformed tradition. I tried to find the most biblical.


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## Rich Koster (Apr 16, 2009)

ReformedChapin said:


> Rich Koster said:
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Did you get a favorable response when inquiring or did you get handed a pamphlet and left on your own?


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## Matthias (Apr 16, 2009)

Herald said:


> Below are non-negotiable items where there is more than one Christian church in the area.
> 
> 1. Approach to teaching the Word of God. Do the pastor and elders consider the bible to be _the_ Word of God, and the sole authority for all matters of faith an practice?
> 
> ...




I really like your comment about the definition of the Christian Church. The Bible does show us what a Christian church is to look like, and just because one calls itself "Christian" does NOT mean it is a Christian church.


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## ReformedChapin (Apr 17, 2009)

Rich Koster said:


> ReformedChapin said:
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I usually try to research it on my own. I learned to look for each denominations official documents and not relay on the leadership which can often be wrong.


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## nicnap (Apr 17, 2009)

Edward said:


> I could put up with an occasional 'liturgical dancer'



I smell a hit coming for Theognome.  Hold me closer Liturgcal dancer


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## OPC'n (Apr 17, 2009)

I really don't like cultures that are really loud. Other than that all's good.


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## Rich Koster (Apr 17, 2009)

ReformedChapin said:


> Rich Koster said:
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A statement/confession is a good start, but what about all of the things that are not clearly spelled out in them?


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## Geneva (Apr 17, 2009)

Edward said:


> Herald said:
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> > Below are non-negotiable items where there is more than one Christian church in the area.
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 The occasional 'liturgical dancer'? What scriptual warrant would you have for that in the first place? Worship is a serious thing. We can't just decide what we would tolerate if God's Word gives no principal.

George
Baptist Minister
Louisiana


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## Rich Koster (Apr 17, 2009)

nicnap said:


> Edward said:
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A parody of the Elton John tune?


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## ReformedChapin (Apr 17, 2009)

Rich Koster said:


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If I can't find the information in official church documents then I do try to go to a credible person/source for information.


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## KMK (Apr 17, 2009)

I try to avoid churches where the only way to see the preacher is on one of the big screens.


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## Montanablue (Apr 17, 2009)

I'm rather in this situation right now. Because I live in a very small and remote town, there is basically only one Bible-believing church which I can feasibly attend. (To go somewhere else would require extensive travel on Sundays - which would be prohibitive both financially and physically). Fortunately, my church does preach the gospel, although it is not reformed. As well, we do have other reformed members who in a situation similar to mine. I was thinking about things that would make me travel to a different church and this is what I came up with:

- Not holding to inerrancy of Scripture (this is the big one)
- Mandating extra-biblical practices/adding to God's law (for example, mandating that all of the church's children be homeschooled etc)
- Emphasizing works over faith

I think that those would be the deal-breakers for me. There are many other things that I might not be happy about, but that I could live with.


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## DonP (Apr 17, 2009)

Well if they don't use wine and have a nursery, then that's it for me I am outta there. 
Actually I am more practical, the absence of padded pews does it. 


Though I prefer a much stricter RPW, going on mission trips to 3rd world countries has been an eye opener. I won't even tell you what I have gone to. Some had to tell myself I was not going to a worship service but a pagan gathering to evangelize. 

For a year or two we drove 2 1/2 hours each way to get to a reformed faithful church each Lord's day. They kept us for lunch every week and we drove home after eve worship. The travel in a car was not an issue for me. Being in a faithful church with a minister who understood the Word & had discipline was. 

Point it what is my intent and desire. No one can make me dirty, only I can make me dirty. The Lord knows my heart and intent. 
But since He has not seen fit to preserve a congregation holding to what I think He requires of them who know to do good, in every city I travel to, does not mean I am compromising. 

I don't take vacations for fun where there is not a solid church. Did it once, went to a Carribean Island Pentecostal church and was able to offer some truth in the Sunday School class on Lordship salvation. But I don't feel the liberty when I have a choice for pleasure to do that. Needless to say, I with held going forward at the altar call and did not participate in being slain in a spirit. But this was all they knew. 

I went to one R Catholic wedding once and will never set foot in a catholic chapel again while anything is going on except a public tour.


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## LawrenceU (Apr 17, 2009)

One thing that will send us packing is requiring children to go to either the nursery or 'children's church'. I have seen 'greeters' actually get rude at some churches when they have visiting parents that want their children to sit with them and the parents stress that it is their desire after the 'friendly suggestion'. They did this to us once and our daughter was 12 at the time. This seems to be especially rampant among those who are trying to be sensitive to seekers. Go figure.


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## Knoxienne (Apr 17, 2009)

Things I don't necessarily like but can tolerate:

1. Nurseries 
2. Age-Segregated Sunday School (Sunday school was invented for heathen children in the first place, but if we have to have SS, it should be integrated like the service!)
3. Sermons which only last 30-40 minutes 
4. Church sponsored women's bible studies led by women (I'm not against women teaching women, but I'm not sure this is how it should be)
5. Committees
6. Offertory during worship (I don't think passing a plate/bag/basket should be part of the service. There ought to be a giving box in the sanctuary or foyer or something. I'd rather have a longer sermon than have offertory time!)
7. Weekly Communion - the center of biblical/protestant worship is the sermon, not the sacraments/ordinances, and although I used to believe in an every week view, I've changed my mind on the necessity for that. Again, gimme a longer sermon! 
8. Recitation of the Nicene/Apostle's Creed - nothing wrong with them per se, but reminds me too much of the RCC. We have reformed confessions which are more highly developed than the creeds, and if we're going to recite anything extra biblical (and that should be minimal) it should be those. 
9. Pew bibles - they're good for guests, but I think they encourage laziness in folks. 


Things I can't tolerate i.e., I'd have to leave or not join:

Grape juice during the Lord's Supper ( I realize people struggle with drunkenness, but I don't think the solution to the problem is grape juice during the Supper, but responsibility/temperance _*or *_abstinence outside the service in our daily lives concerning alchohol. I think as reformed Christians [especially those of us with fundy/teetotaling backgrounds] we tend to be way too lax in this area.) 
Choirs
Soloists
Overhead projectors during worship
Heavy liturgical bells n smells stuff like kneelers, incense, constant reciting and also with youing, etc
Preaching out of the NIV
Children's Church


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## Montanablue (Apr 17, 2009)

Knoxienne said:


> Things I don't necessarily like but can tolerate:
> 
> 1. Nurseries
> 2. Age-Segregated Sunday School (Sunday school was invented for heathen children in the first place, but if we have to have SS, it should be integrated like the service!)
> ...




May I ask why you don't like pew Bibles? I find them handy when I bring a friend to church with me who does not own her own Bible.


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## Knoxienne (Apr 17, 2009)

Montanablue said:


> Knoxienne said:
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You're right, they're great for visitors. I'm outta thanks!


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## DonP (Apr 17, 2009)

Knoxienne said:


> You're right, they're great for visitors. I'm outta thanks!



Also don't you think the giving of our offerings is worship? 
Why would we not want to give that worship in a worship service?

We have a nursery but they are good at teaching it is for guests who have not been used to training their covenant kids to sit quietly through a sermon. 

We have a cry room for when the kids overpower the sermon and sound system which occasionally happens. And they can nurse or diaper a bit more privately there, nothin puts a damper on a weak sermon like a dirty diaper in the pew in front of you or beside you.

Aren't we funny ? Good thing none of us lived in the time of Paul and met in homes or cleft of rocks eh?


How do you run out of thanks? do only get so many?


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## LawrenceU (Apr 17, 2009)

Joshua said:


> Knoxienne said:
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> > 7. Weekly Communion - the center of biblical/protestant worship is the sermon, not the sacraments/ordinances, and although I used to believe in an every week view, I've changed my mind on the necessity for that. Again, gimme a longer sermon!
> ...



Especially not at Providence Family Fellowship!


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## Knoxienne (Apr 17, 2009)

PeaceMaker said:


> Knoxienne said:
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> > You're right, they're great for visitors. I'm outta thanks!
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Yes, giving is an act of worship - I guess I just think giving should be done differently.

I love cry rooms. I think those are great. I just don't like some room hidden away somewhere with toys where children can play and moms can talk during worship.

Re: the thanks - yes, you only get 20 a day or something. They come back after a couple of hours or so and let you push 'em again.


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## DonP (Apr 17, 2009)

Knoxienne said:


> Yes, giving is an act of worship - I guess I just think giving should be done differently.



What? you don't like being able to look and see how much the guy next to you gives so you can see if you are giving enough? A good way to develop a sense of liberty of conscience 

Our cry room is a glass window front wall at he back of the auditorium with sound proof walls. Does a pretty good job but once in while we still get a laugh at those up and coming Whitfields


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## Rich Koster (Apr 17, 2009)

PeaceMaker said:


> Well if they don't use wine and have a nursery, then that's it for me I am outta there.
> Actually I am more practical, the absence of padded pews does it.
> 
> 
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Excellent point.

-----Added 4/17/2009 at 05:10:25 EST-----



LawrenceU said:


> One thing that will send us packing is requiring children to go to either the nursery or 'children's church'. I have seen 'greeters' actually get rude at some churches when they have visiting parents that want their children to sit with them and the parents stress that it is their desire after the 'friendly suggestion'. They did this to us once and our daughter was 12 at the time. This seems to be especially rampant among those who are trying to be sensitive to seekers. Go figure.



A parent should have the option to keep the children with them. I have seen many children who do not distract the meeting. It is a joy, to me, to see a whole family together being edified, not just "there".


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## Montanablue (Apr 17, 2009)

Knoxienne said:


> PeaceMaker said:
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Ditto to the cry rooms. For a short while, I was taking care of one of my cousin's children (a one year old) and she came to church with me. Like any one year old, she wasn't able to sit absolutely still for 1.5 hours and so when she got a little noisy, it was really nice to have a soundproof room so that I could still hear the sermon, but not disturb others. Also, some children are just naturally more boisterous than others, and I think its nice for parents to have a place where they can teach their children to sit quietly without having to worry about disturbing the rest of the congregation. Before we had our cry room, I remember being constantly distracted by a poor father who had to keep correcting his son.


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## KMK (Apr 17, 2009)

Knoxienne said:


> Overhead projectors during worship



Watch out! Your dating yourself with that one.


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## Knoxienne (Apr 17, 2009)

KMK said:


> Knoxienne said:
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 - for a grey hair smiley! I couldn't think of what else to call it at the moment.


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## Edward (Apr 17, 2009)

Geneva said:


> The occasional 'liturgical dancer'? What scriptual warrant would you have for that in the first place? Worship is a serious thing. We can't just decide what we would tolerate if God's Word gives no principal.



Your views on what constitutes proper worship aren't going to have much force if you don't have proper church discipline. So I'll trade off a few errors that can be corrected against a system that doesn't correct errors at all. 

If you want do debate Psalm 150, you'll probably need to do that with someone else.


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## Reformed Thomist (Apr 17, 2009)

KMK said:


> Knoxienne said:
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What is an 'overhead projector'?


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## reformed trucker (Apr 17, 2009)

Rich Koster said:


> I'm known for asking questions.



Oh, so you're a troublemaker, eh?


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## DonP (Apr 17, 2009)

Reformed Thomist said:


> KMK said:
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you put slides on it and it projects onto a wall, often used for songs by churches that can;t afford Psalters or hymnals. Love them in mexico


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## AThornquist (Apr 17, 2009)

Reformed Thomist said:


> What is an 'overhead projector'?



Someone who constantly tells you things you don't understand


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## Geneva (Apr 17, 2009)

Montanablue said:


> I'm rather in this situation right now. Because I live in a very small and remote town, there is basically only one Bible-believing church which I can feasibly attend. (To go somewhere else would require extensive travel on Sundays - which would be prohibitive both financially and physically). Fortunately, my church does preach the gospel, although it is not reformed. As well, we do have other reformed members who in a situation similar to mine. I was thinking about things that would make me travel to a different church and this is what I came up with:
> 
> - Not holding to inerrancy of Scripture (this is the big one)
> - Mandating extra-biblical practices/adding to God's law (for example, mandating that all of the church's children be homeschooled etc)
> ...



No can do Montanablue. If they don't preach the doctrines of grace they do not preach the whole counsel of God. case closed


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## Geneva (Apr 18, 2009)

Edward said:


> Geneva said:
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> > The occasional 'liturgical dancer'? What scriptual warrant would you have for that in the first place? Worship is a serious thing. We can't just decide what we would tolerate if God's Word gives no principal.
> ...



Psalm 150! I'm so put in my place But, and I say it just in passing,
that the dancing in Psa. 150 has nothing to do with your "liturgical dancer"

George
Baptist minister
Louisiana


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## Montanablue (Apr 18, 2009)

Geneva said:


> Montanablue said:
> 
> 
> > I'm rather in this situation right now. Because I live in a very small and remote town, there is basically only one Bible-believing church which I can feasibly attend. (To go somewhere else would require extensive travel on Sundays - which would be prohibitive both financially and physically). Fortunately, my church does preach the gospel, although it is not reformed. As well, we do have other reformed members who in a situation similar to mine. I was thinking about things that would make me travel to a different church and this is what I came up with:
> ...



I am not sure of your meaning? By "emphasizing works over faith," I meant preaching works-righteousness rather than the saving grace of God. (Ephesians 2:8-9)


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## Edward (Apr 18, 2009)

Geneva said:


> Psalm 150! I'm so put in my place But, and I say it just in passing,
> that the dancing in Psa. 150 has nothing to do with your "liturgical dancer"
> 
> George
> ...



"My liturgical dancer" 

I tried to be polite earlier, I'll be more direct now:

Go troll for a flame war with someone else.


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## DonP (Apr 18, 2009)

Montanablue said:


> No can do Montanablue. If they don't preach the doctrines of grace they do not preach the whole counsel of God. case closed



I am not sure of your meaning? By "emphasizing works over faith," I meant preaching works-righteousness rather than the saving grace of God. (Ephesians 2:8-9)[/QUOTE]

I think he means you should drive a long way and go to a church that preaches the gospel

He doesn't know you too well


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## Edward (Apr 18, 2009)

Montanablue said:


> As well, we do have other reformed members who in a situation similar to mine.



Have you all thought about getting together for a reformed Bible study, or perhaps a study based on some material from RC Sproul to supplement the teaching that you all are getting at church?


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## Rich Koster (Apr 18, 2009)

reformed trucker said:


> Rich Koster said:
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Some do consider me that if they don't like to answer my questions. However, due to the lack of a formal education (seminary) I do tend to probe past the surface on some issues that provoke my curiosity.I have read several church history books, some of the early church fathers, began reading Greek words on my own (have to learn the grammar) through a concordance, systematic theology etc. I do like to have conversations with those who have the education to glean from them what I am able.


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## Geneva (Apr 18, 2009)

Edward said:


> Geneva said:
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> > Psalm 150! I'm so put in my place But, and I say it just in passing,
> ...



My bad brother. Sarcasm come a little to easy for me where theology is concerned. I had no intention of offending, just arm wrestling a little. Are we good??

George L.
Baptist minister
Denham Springs, La.


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## Montanablue (Apr 18, 2009)

Edward said:


> Montanablue said:
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> > As well, we do have other reformed members who in a situation similar to mine.
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We have actually discussed this, and it may happen this summer. There are three other families I know of that are reformed or are leaning reformed and we've had some really good doctrinal discussions over meals together. As well, although my church isn't reformed, its not necessarily anti-reformed either, so we've toyed with the idea of seeing if we could do a formal church Bible study with some reformed materials. I don't know that our pastor would be opposed to that - he might even join in. 



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Montanablue View Post
> 
> No can do Montanablue. If they don't preach the doctrines of grace they do not preach the whole counsel of God. case closed
> I am not sure of your meaning? By "emphasizing works over faith," I meant preaching works-righteousness rather than the saving grace of God. (Ephesians 2:8-9)



I think he means you should drive a long way and go to a church that preaches the gospel

He doesn't know you too well[/QUOTE]

Oh. Well, its actually not financially feasible for me to do so at this point and still pay my bills. And although my church may not be reformed, I do believe that it is "preaching the gospel." If it was preaching something besides the gospel, I would not be attending there.


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## Grace Alone (Apr 18, 2009)

Our last church was a PCA church plant and was in retrospect, more broadly evangelical. They thought things like a soccer field, egg hunts, VBS, etc. would bring people in. But it didn't. Some people pushed for children's church and got it temporarily and it worked until there were too few people willing to help with it. I was very opposed to it. Since we left, I've seen signs for a Christian comedian/singer performance, a name change to the sign blocking the word "presbyterian", and a Bible Bowl for kids.

Nobody ever got that all the church needed to do was to be faithful to the Lord and He would bring in the new people without gimmicks. Now we are at the kind of church that gets this, thank the Lord. We do have a nursery available for the 0-2 range, and I do support that because it might be the only way they mom gets to sit through a whole sermon. We have the sermon piped in to the room for the nursery worker.


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## Edward (Apr 18, 2009)

Montanablue said:


> Oh. Well, its actually not financially feasible for me to do so at this point and still pay my bills. And although my church may not be reformed, I do believe that it is "preaching the gospel." If it was preaching something besides the gospel, I would not be attending there.



Put me down as voting for it better to worship with Christians who get some of the details wrong (such as Dispensationalists) and supplementing with other material to avoiding corporate worship altogether. Perhaps the study group will come together, with or without support from the church leaders. 

And, you know, it isn't very Reformed to think that one has a perfect Church - the WCF addresses that directly.

-----Added 4/18/2009 at 01:50:05 EST-----



Geneva said:


> Sarcasm come a little to easy for me where theology is concerned. I had no intention of offending, just arm wrestling a little. Are we good??
> 
> George L.
> Baptist minister
> Denham Springs, La.



I even gave you a thank you for this post.


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