# "Secular Moments"



## kvanlaan (Mar 26, 2007)

The thread on "Firebrand Preaching mp3s" in the computer section made me think about a quote in a Paul Washer sermon. He mentioned in a sermon that we as believers should not have "secular moments", not ever. 

Especially when I look at the history of the Puritans, taking their lives and writings as examples of how they lived and believed, and the fact that we at the PB think that the Puritans were definitely on the right track, if not totally _cool_, how is it that we take so much time out of our lives in secular pursuits? We scoff at the idea of a "carnal" Christian, but how much better are we?

I'm not talking about taking five minutes to see the sports highlights of the day on the news (though that definitely qualifies) or listening to secular music on the way home (though that _also_ qualifies) from work. I'm talking about a collection of CDs worth hundreds of dollars that takes hours out of our week. Or a TV that takes hours out of _every day_. Not to mention the time that was spent earning the money to purchase them. How will we answer before His throne for those wasted hours/days/years? If we are to glory in serving Him, do we really need 'rest' from this service?

I'm not talking about personal external piety. I'm talking about us, as _Soli Deo Gloria_ standard-bearers, spending hours a day, months a year, culminating into _years_ of our lives in worldly or self-gratifying pursuits. 

I just want to know, how do we rationalize this in our lives? Is it just a shameful reality? Do we try to prop it up with Scripture? What?


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## VaughanRSmith (Mar 26, 2007)

I think that in Christian circles there can be a huge differentiation between things of the "Christian" world and things of the "secular" world; a differentiation I don't see in scripture. All things are given to us for our use and enjoyment. I can enjoy watching the television of an evening, because it is God's good gift. 

Now, I'm not advocating slobbing around and becoming a couch potato, but I am saying that we are playing with fire if we separate things of this world from the things of God. 

Jesus slept in the boat


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## ReformedWretch (Mar 26, 2007)

> Jesus slept in the boat



I hope it wasn't on the Lord's Day!


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## satz (Mar 26, 2007)

Kevin,

I hope I am not reading you wrongly, but I think there are actually two seperate questions in your OP.

1) To what extent can believers partake of the 'things of the world' without being spotted by the world.

2) To what extent can believers engage in activities that God allows or has not condemned but which are not directly spiritual. 

I think sometimes (and I am not saying you do it) discussions of this nature get a little confused between the two and that hinders the clarity of discussion. For instance, if being spotted by the world was not under consideration, there would be (in my opinion) no difference between taking an hour to watch TV and taking an hour to walk in the park. Yet most christians would consider the two activities of a different 'type' in that there are many christians who would shun the former but have no problem at all with the latter.

Just thought that might help to focus the discussion a bit. Of course, I could be wrong...


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## kvanlaan (Mar 26, 2007)

Yes, Christ slept in the boat. He did not 'chill' with a beer in front of the TV. He was refreshing His human nature and/or demonstrating the insignificance of the storm's danger to Him, label it as you will. He was not 'kicking back'.

Please, please understand that in starting this thread, I am one of the worst offenders and thus am seeking a Scripturally sound way to handle this and lay out a proper path. But while I will curl up in bed with a simple flu, Calvin dictated sermons and doctrine in spite of severe and unrelenting pain. He was carried in to preach and sat as he was unable to walk or stand. Milton dictated his best work to his daughters after his sight was taken and soon before he died. I am sure there are examples _ad infinitum_ among reformers and Puritans alone but my point is that these men understood the sense of urgency and the responsibility which they undertook living each moment for God.

Adam, you once posted a quote by Spurgeon that I have read at least a dozen times since. Included in there is:



> I believe that one reason why the Church of God at this present moment has so little influence over the world is because the world has so much influence over the Church. Nowadays, we hear Nonconformists pleading that they may do this, and they may do that,—things which their Puritan forefathers would rather have died at the stake than have tolerated. They plead that they may live like worldlings, and my sad answer to them, when they crave for this liberty, is, "Do it if you dare. It may not do you much hurt, for you are so bad already. Your cravings show how rotten your hearts are. If you have a hungering after such dog's meat, go, dogs, and eat the garbage! Worldly amusements are fit food for mere pretenders and hypocrites. If you were God's children, you would loathe the very thought of the world's evil joys, and your question would not be, 'How far may we be like the world?' but your one cry would be, 'How far can we get away from the world? How much can we come out from it?' Your temptation would be rather to become sternly severe, and ultra-Puritanical in your separation from sin, in such a time as this, than to ask, 'How can I make myself like other men, and act as they do?"'



And no, I am in no way suggesting that those who watch TV are chewing on "dog's meat". But why do we seek after the things of the world? Even on the most innocent of TV shows or movies we will be assaulted by inappropriate behaviour, inappropriate dress, and a variety of other things which are not edifying to anyone, let alone the Lord our God.

Mark, I think this issue that I have with this is not so much "how much can I partake of before I will be spotted by it" but instead, "if I live to serve Him, what desire can I _possibly_ have for it?"

When we over-work, where does our refreshment lie? In Him? Or in the bear-baiting of our day? I myself engage in mindless pursuits in order to refresh but why is it that when my tank is empty, I am not refilling with 93 octane, but instead am pouring in the offal of the world and the product of a Godless industry.

We are ready to condemn Arminians at the drop of a hat and engage in virtual hand to hand combat with each other over Exclusive Psalmody or Baptism, but are glad to roll in the filth of the world during most of our resting moments. I just don't understand the disconnect there. Again, this is me looking into the mirror, there is no pointing of fingers at anyone here.

If I tell you that I listen to Boston in my time off, or I tell you that I listen to Iron Maiden instead, why does the attitude of the listener change? Both are Godless, both are apart from His will for our lives, and both represent the same world, but because one is more conspicuously wicked, we somehow make a distinction between the two.

What is it that makes this garbage so palatable to us and why do we continue to consume it?


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## No Longer A Libertine (Mar 26, 2007)

Because I listen to Van Halen, watch Quantum Leap reruns and love Indiana Jones movies to death as well as Edgar Alan Poe literature I don't feel these things are entirely bankrupt.

They display human creatvity and reflect the glory of God whether they mean to or not by the fact intelligent beings were given such creativity to create music and poetry and art and adventurous story telling.

We are permitted to enjoy the pagan's culture that is not scraping the bottom of human depravity, we are afterall human and have inate desires and instincts that manifest themselves in pagans and believers alike, not just the sin nature but the grace of humanity for the sun rises and sets over us both.

I can enjoy the world's sports and escapism and I'll leave it to the pagan to be absorbed and ruled by them, there is a difference and with our freedom in Christ we can enjoy the likes of Steven Spielberg, Arthur Conan Doyle and Eric Clapton guilt free even though they are not believers themselves.


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## VaughanRSmith (Mar 26, 2007)

I love Iron Maiden  

Let me also say, I am a firm proponent of redeeming the time. Also, as I chill in front of the TV with my beer and subway sandwich, let me say that I do believe we need to be on guard for the things of this world. Tonight I am going to watch an episode of a show my wife and I watch, and then head to bed to read 1 Corinthians and Calvin.

Now, one of these actions is more edifying for myself, but both actions can be just as equally glorifying to God. My joy is in Christ, my enjoyment of His creation is one of the ways I show my joy.


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## VaughanRSmith (Mar 26, 2007)

No Longer A Libertine said:


> Because I listen to Van Halen, watch Quantum Leap reruns and love Indiana Jones movies to death as well as Edgar Alan Poe literature I don't feel these things are entirely bankrupt.
> 
> They display human creatvity and reflect the glory of God whether they mean to or not by the fact intelligent beings were given such creativity to create music and poetry and art and adventurous story telling.
> 
> ...


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## BobVigneault (Mar 26, 2007)

I think that more important than the questions is the motivation for the questions. This is where you will find the solution to the tension that these questions cause.

Do you ask because you wonder about your own election?
Do you ask because you sense you are not like other believers on the path?
Do you think you are missing something, a blessing or the answer to a mystery"
Do you feel unworthy of the blessings of salvation?

These are all good motivations and questions we ought to ask ourselves regularly.

The problem is that in trying to answer these question our hearts, our nature, will try to codify or build of list of things *we must do* in order feel assured that we are truly spiritual. How many of the commandments must we follow in order that God will be pleased with our performance?

The solution is NOT to look to ourselves for God pleasing life. Self-evaluation is good and necessary not because we can track our betterment, but because it drives us back to Christ and His gospel.

Christ has lived the God pleasing life. When we find ourselves lacking, it is one, a result of the Spirit's work in us in sanctification, and two, a motivator to look to Christ. My life, my true life, my God pleasing life is hidden in Christ.

Do you watch too much TV? Praise God that you will ask the question. If you have to ask then the Spirit is shining his light on an area of your life that may need some re-evaluation. But don't try and hold another to what the Spirit has convicted you of. 

Most importantly, whatever change you decide to make in your behavior, do it solely out of honor to the Father through the finished work of the Son by the power of the Spirit. In this way, whatever you do proceeds from faith. (That which does not proceed from faith, is sin.) Be motivated by gratitude for the finished work of Christ and never that you might, in your flesh, be more acceptable to God.



> Romans 14:5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
> 
> Romans 14:22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.


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## Chris (Mar 26, 2007)

Which sermon? I think I've got everything of his that's on the internet...


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## kvanlaan (Mar 26, 2007)

OK, let's go through the motivation first:

Do you ask because you wonder about your own election? 
Nope, I am a hard-boiled 'frozen chosen' and that is not at issue.  

Do you ask because you sense you are not like other believers on the path? Not so much. Maybe with regards to some fairly insignificant doctrinal issues (being of the Dutch tradition instead of the English), and perhaps when it comes to the "Saddleback Syndrome" type of church (I'm steadfastly against it and make no bones about it.)

Do you think you are missing something, a blessing or the answer to a 'mystery'?
Don't think so. Salvation is a pretty big blessing as far as blessings go, and I'm not looking for anything beyond that. I am not going to try and decipher the thought processes of the Creator, just trying to walk as I should.

Do you feel unworthy of the blessings of salvation?
Unworthy? Not sure about that word. I know I am undeserving, but that's all of us. I am thankful to the point of incredulity, but I don't mope about how there's no possibility that God could redeem such as me. He's done it and I'm not about to argue.

I guess it is more the "living sacrifice" idea as well as the "guilt, grace, gratitude" concept that drives me to this. No, God doesn't need anything I can possibly conjure up or do. I'm clear on that. But when I say I am striving to live for Him and keep His commandments and yet spend so much time immersed in the diversions of the world, I feel like I'm partaking of a little too much 'cheap grace'. In my family, I need only look to my maternal grandfather to see a man who lived quite like a Puritan, and in two generations, it has come to this? Thus I feel myself running back to that path, as self-examination DOES spotlight the need for the gospel and His love and blood to remain always in the forefront BUT at the same time, I want to make an honest statement that I strive to live for Him and live in His service. I want to be killing indwelling sin and I don't feel that I can do that when I am surrounded by and partake of the pleasures of the world. 

As for holding others to what the Spirit has convicted me of, that is not my intent. But surely we all battle with this in some form, do we not? We do and will struggle with sin, every one of us, every day, until we pass into glory. I am asking why it is that we (or maybe it's just me) find certain conspicuous sin so appealing when we should hate it and why I am not more driven to make every moment count. 

Also, with regards to the comments about Iron Maiden, I can say, with a huge dose of experience, that there is no possible way to listen to them in a way that could edify the Lord. I won't hold anyone else to convictions that the Spirit holds me to but there's also a point at which a brother must speak up. 

No group of men, even jokingly, can sing...



> I feel drawn towards the evil chanting hordes
> They seem to mesmerise me ... can't avoid their eyes
> 666 the number of the beast
> 666 the one for you and me
> ...



...without some serious issues being present in their souls. It has been years since I have listened to that song and I can recite it word for word. It has seared into my mind like little else could - I have no problem believing that it is _verdomde_ and _van de devil_. (Hence I hope the wink was an earnest one!)


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## kvanlaan (Mar 26, 2007)

Chris, not sure about which one - I will sift through and try to let you know but it may be a while, I've got a LOT of his stuff too. It's like sermon heroin...


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## Dieter Schneider (Mar 26, 2007)

Give me Phil.4:8 any time - I would have thought that the world's cisterns hold not attraction for the Christian. Can we enjoy supporting with our time and money that which is blatantly opposed to our LORD?


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## Augusta (Mar 26, 2007)

Kevin, I struggle with the same convictions you do. I will have these flashes of how a certain pasttime is just vanity or worldliness or pointless pleasure seeking. I cannot tell though if they are the Holy Spirit convicting me or if it is my flesh trying to be severe and work for salvation instead of trusting Christ. 

I understand that the salvation is of the Lord and cannot be earned but there are two sides in scripture. Scripture also says that Faith without works is dead. And I understand that verse in the reformed sense and not the Catholic one. That it means a *true * faith will bear the fruit of godliness. This is even more of a conundrum for me since the puritans really did live the way these convictions point me so I have a historical witness that others felt this way and acted on it. 

Almost no one lives like the puritans now. Almost no one strives for this type of holiness anymore and it is often branded as legalism instead of a biblical standard that we should try to emulate. We are all sinners and will defend our pet pasttimes with the cry of Christian Liberty especially among reformed Christians. Granted the thrills of today are even more fun than ever before. My husband and I are gamers and the technology of games is just breathtaking now. Have you seen the newest Halo3 trailer!! 

The other issue is how much are we supposed to strive in our own strength to live up to this standard. Are we to patiently wait for God's sanctifying hand? We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Have we lost that fear? 

These threads also die very quicks deaths. No one wants to know the answer. Then we would have to do something about it. Just watch this one will be a deserted wasteland soon.


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## ReformedWretch (Mar 26, 2007)

Thanks for posting that quote again Kevin! My short reply was in jest trying to laugh at some of our debates we have here as you eluded to when you referenced EP and baptism, etc.

Do you want to know what I think the problem is? This may offend some here, but I think the problem is the Church body. It's been my experience (for the most part) that even when a local body has one, two, or maybe even three members who have this conviction they are seen as the "weirdo's" of the flock.

I waste as much or more time than anyone, but during the phases of my walk where I have been on fire and sought to separate myself further and further from the world I've found it to be too lonely of a place to be! Now that may sound like a poor excuse, but I’m sorry, if I can find no one to walk with me down such a difficult path, the chances of remaining in it are slim. 

I pray to God often that I could find a group of believers who would meet daily! I would so much prefer that to watching TV or going to the movies. Sadly, I can never, ever find this group! Everyone is too busy. The issue with the Presbyterian Church that I’ve run into is that they don’t want to call an “official” service too often because this causes members to feel “bound” to attend. My old evangelical church was open nearly every day with bible studies, family gatherings, etc. So often I would go there to fellowship, study the word, and pray together rather than going out on the town of turning on a TV show. On the few days that the church was not open, members’ homes were in order to meet over coffee and an open bible. I miss that very, very badly. I work a job where Church members would have to come to me. I work in a LARGE home with plenty of space and I bet some of our kids might even get involved but I couldn’t get anyone interested. In fact, the few studies we had were far from weekly and were often rescheduled. When we had them there might be four or five people that attended!

I suppose all of this sounds like I am blaming others for me not walking as I desire to walk, but I thought that was what a Church was for? I mean didn’t Christ even have a few that he could normally rely on? I love my brothers and sisters but when I press hard to press on harder I feel rather alone in that call/request. Often I just give up and hope to do what I can.


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## ReformedWretch (Mar 26, 2007)

> These threads also die very quicks deaths. No one wants to know the answer. Then we would have to do something about it. Just watch this one will be a deserted wasteland soon.



You seemed to have called that Traci!


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## kvanlaan (Mar 27, 2007)

No kidding, Traci called it right on. I know it's not a popular topic...

Adam, it _is_ tough to find a support group for this sort of thing, especially living in the world we do. It's bad enough living in China, where the marketing machine is much less practised than in the US. In the US, you pile a bunch of cookies in front of a child, then say "touch them, smell them, stare at them, even _lick_ them but don't you DARE take a bite."

The comment about needing a pal to walk the path with is dead on. And it usually has to be someone of the same sex. In this one instance, a spouse doesn't usually fit the bill. Don't get me wrong - my wife is incredibly supportive, loving, respects me and looks to me as the head of the family (I think I lead a very charmed life!) BUT she's not a guy. And that is what it takes when it comes to accountability in this sort of situation.

As for the role of the church, it is also essential. I have been listening to sermonaudio.com for several months now to help in my search for a home church upon our return. It is a wonderful tool in the search. If you are going to Joel Osteen's big warm fuzzy and are convicted to live a Puritan's life, you'd likely have charges of legalism leveled at you first, then be mocked for worrying about things that God doesn't care a whit about. How long will you be able to walk that road if you stay and have no one to walk with you? Not long...


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## Herald (Mar 27, 2007)

BobVigneault said:


> I think that more important than the questions is the motivation for the questions. This is where you will find the solution to the tension that these questions cause.
> 
> Do you ask because you wonder about your own election?
> Do you ask because you sense you are not like other believers on the path?
> ...



Brother Bob -  

I believe the admonition can go both ways. On the one hand we should not seek to avoid things believing they may be the secret to happiness or godliness. Monasticism came out of that mindset. On the other hand we should not indulge in everything that God created because we have liberty. Antinomianism is the logical conclusion of that thinking. 

My brother may stumble with going to the movies, whereas I have no such problem. I may be tempted in the presence of alcohol, but my brother may drink responsibly. Bob quoted Paul's words to the Romans and they bear repeating, "For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin." 

Firebrand preaching will never replace the time we spend in the scriptures. Even if a preacher is correct, a believer who is not convinced by scripture will be driven back and forth by every convincing sermon they hear. We must search the scriptures diligently. As we do so, we will find Christ on every page. As we find Christ, the scriptures will be like a cool breeze, refreshing our soul. 

In our post-modern world, even our desire for peace and godliness becomes subjective. We have forgotten, and for some of us have never experienced, the simplicity of Christ. Our Lord said:



> Matthew 11:28-30 28 "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29 "Take My yoke upon you, and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart; and you shall find rest for your souls. 30 "For My yoke is easy, and My load is light."



Brother Bob's post caused my mind to dwell on these things. Shall we not take on our Lord's yoke and learn from Him? For it is in Christ that we shall find rest from our weariness.


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## BobVigneault (Mar 27, 2007)

Peter has much to say on this topic in his very rich intro to his first letter.



> 1 Peter 1:3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.



First off, and this is a key you must remember as you are working through any doctrine, always begin with the Divine nature of God. All doctrines, from election to sanctification must be understood to be consistent with God's nature and decrees. For example, God's love must be set against the truth of God's immutability, holiness, mercy, omniscience, etc. We don't start with our experience, we begin with God's being.

Peter begins a discussion of our sanctification, our transformation and conformity to his revealed will, by making it clear that our transformation is powered by God. Knowledge of God's being is the engine that moves the creature Godward. The unsaved runs from God in fear but the child of God is enamored and runs into the arms of the Father as the Father draws him.

Peter then reminds us to take inventory of God's promises. "He will not leave us. He who began a GOOD work in us will see it through. Those whom the Father gives me I will in no ways cast out." Too many more wondrous promises to list here, but they give us the confidence to approach the Father and dare ask for grace in our walk. Knowing that in Him there is now NO condemnation and that the work of the Cross has been effectually applied Peter can say we have "escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.'

In light of who God is and the finished redemptive work of Christ Peter now tells us we may look to supplementing what has been done (by faith) with our own RESPONSE of pursuing virtue. The important point here, of course, is that we are RESPONDING to what has been accomplished, NOT trying to accomplish a missing work.

Peter tells us that we never arrive at perfection (completion), not in this life anyway. The great evidence of virtuous living is not a finished product but a life characterized by transformation.


> 8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.



And finally notice that the goal here is not sinless perfection but that your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ is increased. This completes the cycle, and it is a cycle.

1. We dwell and abide in the knowledge of God
2. This knowledge transforms our thoughts, our minds are renewed.
3. The Spirit reveals sins that have long indwelt us.
3. Our new way of thinking results in renewed principles and convictions.
4. Our convictions, driven by the Word change our behavior - we put off the old ways, we put on the new.
5. Good fruit is produced and our godliness (God is becoming more of our emotional focus) leads us to study the Word and pray.
6. In prayer and study we dwell and abide in the knowledge of God.

We will not be rid of all of our old sinful ways after one cycle. In fact we won't be rid of them after a thousand cycles. As our knowledge of the Holy One increases, so will our knowledge and grief over sin. ("Woe is me, I am undone.") This is what characterized the Puritans. Read The Valley of Vision, you will see. 

Even when we stand before God in Glory we will not own a true satisfaction with our own efforts. We will still be confessing, it was all of Christ and nothing of me, blessed be his name.


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## ReformedWretch (Mar 27, 2007)

Bob

Any thoughts on my "group" issues/concerns? I sometimes worry that some feel that all of this has to be completely private and personal.


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## BobVigneault (Mar 27, 2007)

houseparent said:


> Bob
> 
> Any thoughts on my "group" issues/concerns? I sometimes worry that some feel that all of this has to be completely private and personal.



Are you referring to the second of your posts in this thread Adam? I'd have to think on it some more but my gut reaction is you shouldn't blame the church. The church is always the easy target. Finding problems with a church is like shooting fish in a barrel.

It's really a matter of probabilities -

Chances of making changes in your life, pretty good.
Chances of finding the perfect church, ain't gonna happen, EVER!

I know of three people I have spoken to in recent weeks who aren't coming to church. They all are blaming some incident in church for it. However, it's pretty obvious that they are accommodating their own laziness. 

I'm not saying that you're doing that Adam, in no way, but without knowing more about your church situation I would recommend not looking to the church to blame for hindering our sanctification. INHO


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## kvanlaan (Mar 27, 2007)

Bill, the quote from the sermon is merely what _lead_ me to delve further into scripture - I have spent some quality time with James, John, Matthew Henry, and a few others over the last while or so (but didn't get as much done at work as I'd hoped!) The charge that my reading during this time was then biased may have some merit, but I don't feel that my behaviour is at issue with the verse you quoted. 

Also, tell me this (and tell me if I am misunderstanding you): Why is it that we do not charge the Puritans with legalism, that we do not make mention of how they were sailing towards monasticism? We are dealing with a number of similar issues that they were: a corrupt governing body, false teachings in the church, false prophets, you name it. Did the Puritan martyrs miss the boat and die for nothing? Their lives were incredibly offensive to the world, and why? The world saw Christ in them, and hated them for it. But no, they are not my model, Christ is. I am not seeking to walk as other men in the thinking that _they_ are the measure of the Christian life. I think that what Bob said was dead on - I seek this path to "honor the Father through the finished work of the Son by the power of the Holy Spirit." It is _gratitude_ (guilt, grace, gratitude - that's the logic!) All the works of my hands are nothing before him - to offer them in an effort to be more presentable is only to sin against Him.

I still think liberty falls down somewhere here as our actions conflict with scripture - and they always will as we consume the goods of a godless world. 
"My brother may stumble with going to the movies, whereas I have no such problem" - and there _may be_ the odd movie that would pass the test. But I don't know that I've seen even a Disney movie in the last decade that has passed "honor your father and mother", never mind several other commandments. What's top of the box office now? "300"? How far does our liberty extend? While I may not stumble going to the movies, can I _really_ say it is _beneficial_? 

Yes, there is danger in constructing a list of what we _must do_ but that is not scriptural. And this behaviour is born of scripture and gratitude, nothing else (says the sinful man before you...)

If I have misread you, please forgive me - and I sincerely do not mean to offend with my comments.

PS - Trevor, it will take another line - or maybe more - so I will probably have to shorten the names up, lest I run afoul of the USMC in my signature length!


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## BertMulder (Mar 27, 2007)

Brother Kevin, very much appreciate you starting this thread, and I wholeheartedly must agree with you!

We are so easily, through our spiritual laziness, drawn away in the old man by the carnal pleasures. That old man has to be crucified.

Also, believe Paul had something to say about the wordly influences in his letter to the Romans:



> 17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, *The just shall live by faith*.
> 
> 18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
> 
> ...



No, I am not here condemning the people that watch the wicked movies and TV shows, and listen to the music of the wicked. What I am saying here, as I believe Paul is saying, may we partake of those wicked things, and relax by watching sin?

Or should we be separate from the world. In the world, but not of the world?


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## BertMulder (Mar 27, 2007)

trevorjohnson said:


> So...
> 
> Can I watch my Season 2 episodes of Lost for 45 minutes per night (usually about midnight) while I do push ups after a hard and busy day? Or is this evidence of my laziness and worldliness?



Believe you are familiar with Scripture...

What does Scripture say on that?


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## BobVigneault (Mar 27, 2007)

Trevor, as a moderator on the PB I am offering special absolution for you to watch Season 2 episodes of Lost for 45 minutes per night while doing push ups. (I suggest 3 sets of 25 with a break in between).

Now, if you can get the attention of a Super Mod or Admin, they can give you absolution to watch, oh lets say..... the Trinity Broadcasting Network. No, I'm serious, they are THAT powerful.


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## Philip A (Mar 27, 2007)

trevorjohnson said:


> So...
> 
> Can I watch my Season 2 episodes of Lost for 45 minutes per night (usually about midnight) while I do push ups after a hard and busy day? Or is this evidence of my laziness and worldliness?



No, you may not. You _must_ watch Lost without any distractions; if you do pushups, you'll miss the little details that make the show what it is. This desire to do pushups while watching is evidence of your inner fundy trying to get out 

I'd recommend a mai tai with Lost after a hard and busy day, but I'm not sure where you're at on that, so I'll refrain 

Oh, and season 2 got to be pretty dark; my wife and I didn't like it as much as the first. The third got off to a rocky start, but it gets back on track, almost as good as the first season.


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## MrMerlin777 (Mar 27, 2007)

BobVigneault said:


> Trevor, as a moderator on the PB I am offering special absolution for you to watch Season 2 episodes of Lost for 45 minutes per night while doing push ups. (I suggest 3 sets of 25 with a break in between).
> 
> Now, if you can get the attention of a Super Mod or Admin, they can give you absolution to watch, oh lets say..... the Trinity Broadcasting Network. No, I'm serious, they are THAT powerful.


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## Herald (Mar 27, 2007)

kvanlaan said:


> Bill, the quote from the sermon is merely what _lead_ me to delve further into scripture - I have spent some quality time with James, John, Matthew Henry, and a few others over the last while or so (but didn't get as much done at work as I'd hoped!) The charge that my reading during this time was then biased may have some merit, but I don't feel that my behaviour is at issue with the verse you quoted.



Kevin, the verse I quoted had nothing to do with you. I was responding to Bob's post. Had I wished to direct a comment your way I would have responded directly to your OP. 



> Also, tell me this (and tell me if I am misunderstanding you): Why is it that we do not charge the Puritans with legalism, that we do not make mention of how they were sailing towards monasticism? We are dealing with a number of similar issues that they were: a corrupt governing body, false teachings in the church, false prophets, you name it. Did the Puritan martyrs miss the boat and die for nothing? Their lives were incredibly offensive to the world, and why? The world saw Christ in them, and hated them for it.



I cannot look into the heart of each brother who is agreement with Puritan theology. They would say that Puritan theology is actually Reformed theology. So be it. But can you really paint with such a broad brush? Yes, I suppose there are those who drink the Puritan Kool-Aide without question. Their condition is no different than the dispensationalist who believes the Left Behind series is accurate in its eschatology. Often times I see the WCF quoted in response to a question without any original opinion other than what the framers of that great confession wrote. But for every "because the WCF says it, I believe it!" response, there are far more thoughtful responses that dive deep into the scriptures. That is the reason I am part of the PB. I am interested in knowing the scriptures and the brethren on the PB have helped me greatly in this endeavor.



> But no, they are not my model, Christ is. I am not seeking to walk as other men in the thinking that _they_ are the measure of the Christian life.



Don't be so quick to toss aside the examples of godly men. Consider what the scriptures say:

*1 Corinthians 4:16-17* 16 I exhort you therefore, be imitators of me. 17 For this reason I have sent to you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, and he will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, just as I teach everywhere in every church. 

*1 Corinthians 11:1* Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ. 

*1 Thessalonians 1:6 * 6 You also became imitators of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit, 

*1 Thessalonians 2:14 * 14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews, 

*Hebrews 6:11-12 * 11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises. 

Kevin, to the degree that godly men display Christ, we are to follow their example. You are not placing your faith in men when you follow their example, you are placing your faith in God. 



> I think that what Bob said was dead on - I seek this path to "honor the Father through the finished work of the Son by the power of the Holy Spirit." It is _gratitude_ (guilt, grace, gratitude - that's the logic!) All the works of my hands are nothing before him - to offer them in an effort to be more presentable is only to sin against Him.



Correct. If you present the works of your hands in order to improve your condition before God, that would be sin. But if you present your labors as an act of service, the service of a bond-servant, then your works will find favor with God.



> I still think liberty falls down somewhere here as our actions conflict with scripture - and they always will as we consume the goods of a godless world.
> "My brother may stumble with going to the movies, whereas I have no such problem" - and there _may be_ the odd movie that would pass the test. But I don't know that I've seen even a Disney movie in the last decade that has passed "honor your father and mother", never mind several other commandments. What's top of the box office now? "300"? How far does our liberty extend? While I may not stumble going to the movies, can I _really_ say it is _beneficial_?



Kevin, you're standing on a slippery slope. You're setting yourself up as Pope. Unless you know your brother is _specifically _sinning, how can you elevate yourself to judge? Can you ascertain the thoughts and intentions of the heart? Doesn't that belong to God (Hebrews 4:12)? 

What is the slippery slope you're standing on? The one of legalism. While you have not said it, you are one step away from advocating abstaining as a means of godliness. 



> Yes, there is danger in constructing a list of what we _must do_ but that is not scriptural. And this behaviour is born of scripture and gratitude, nothing else (says the sinful man before you...)



Kevin, this comment seems more like a disclaimer than one of conviction. I believe you see the conflict in your thoughts. I would counsel you *not *to form definite opinions at this point. I believe you need to A. search the scriptures diligently -and- B. Seek wise counsel from your pastor or elders.


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## kvanlaan (Mar 28, 2007)

> Kevin, the verse I quoted had nothing to do with you. I was responding to Bob's post. Had I wished to direct a comment your way I would have responded directly to your OP.



OK. As I said previously, I'm not sure if I misunderstood you, and I guess I did in that case.



> Don't be so quick to toss aside the examples of godly men. Consider what the scriptures say



It was not my intent to toss aside the examples of godly men, not at all, but instead to make the point that I am not taking the Puritans (or any specific man, for that matter) to be the be all and end all of the Christian walk (though the OP may suggest I feel that way - I still think they were _way_ cool). The lives of both my grandfathers, as well as my father, as well as a number of other godly men I know, are all shining examples of the Christian life to me and I take their living testimony for what it is, a human imitation of Christ. I would be foolish to take them as perfect - we are all to stand in light of scripture, even men such as these (and none will be found without stain). Asking such questions as I am, there is the danger that one can take another man's living sacrifice as their new idol, I wanted to make it clear that I was not.



> Kevin, _to the degree that godly men display Christ_, we are to follow their example. You are not placing your faith in men when you follow their example, you are placing your faith in God.


 Agreed. 100%.



> Kevin, you're standing on a slippery slope. You're setting yourself up as Pope. Unless you know your brother is specifically sinning, how can you elevate yourself to judge? Can you ascertain the thoughts and intentions of the heart? Doesn't that belong to God (Hebrews 4:12)?
> 
> What is the slippery slope you're standing on? The one of legalism. While you have not said it, you are one step away from advocating abstaining as a means of godliness.



No, I cannot elevate myself to judge - I look to scripture to judge what is right and holy and what is not. Your intention in seeing '300' (or any other movie, for that matter) may be for simply enjoyment and entertainment but if the contents are of such a nature as to be scripturally unsound or even repungnant, what are we doing there? If I go to a strip joint just to learn new dance moves and have a beer and can say that I am not brought to adulterous thoughts by my presence there, does that mean that no brother should have the audacity to speak to me of the wickedness I am participating in?

Find the benefit to a Christian in these verses:



> I feel drawn towards the evil chanting hordes
> They seem to mesmerise me ... can't avoid their eyes
> 666 the number of the beast
> 666 the one for you and me
> ...



We do not _specifically_ sin in listening to it; we are not involved in worship of Satan, we are merely a _spectator_, listening to a song _about_ an experience that involved a third party. Is there then no sin in partaking thereof? I'm sorry; hand me the funny hat, get me started on Latin lessons, and get me a good German beer - I will accept the title of Pope if that is what my comments were in this instance. 

My error in the OP is perhaps to have designated what "qualified" - and I may have given too narrow a designation. But I find it difficult to find fault in striving to live for Christ and taking scripture as my guide.

As for advocating legalism by such behaviour, that is a _very_ wide brush indeed. I am talking about nothing more than the behaviour and lifestyle of people I know in the Canadian Reformed Church and the Free Reformed Church back home. Legalism is a danger, sure. But anyone who claims to follow the Ten Commandments stands in such danger. Shall we not eat that we would be free of the possibility of gluttony?



> Kevin, this comment seems more like a disclaimer than one of conviction. I believe you see the conflict in your thoughts. I would counsel you not to form definite opinions at this point. I believe you need to A. search the scriptures diligently -and- B. Seek wise counsel from your pastor or elders.



It is no disclaimer, it is a presentation that while these are my convictions, I am yet a sinful man - I seek to be Christ-like, and will exert my every human effort to do so, but I will accept scriptural correction. I stand convicted to reform my life to more fully serve Him, that is all. This has raised the questions in the OP. The counsel I have sought from those with authority in this area has done nothing more than further convict me in this way.


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## BertMulder (Mar 28, 2007)

> Kevin, you're standing on a slippery slope. You're setting yourself up as Pope. Unless you know your brother is specifically sinning, how can you elevate yourself to judge? Can you ascertain the thoughts and intentions of the heart? Doesn't that belong to God (Hebrews 4:12)?
> 
> What is the slippery slope you're standing on? The one of legalism. While you have not said it, you are one step away from advocating abstaining as a means of godliness.
> 
> ...



Bob, I would be very careful, if I were you, not to tilt the plank the other way, and slide into the abyss of antinomianism and lawlessness. There is a fine balance here. Yes, we have Christian liberty, but let us not use this liberty for an occasion for the flesh.

Everything is lawful for me, but everything does not edify.

Quit asking "What is wrong with it"

Start asking "What is right with it"

And perhaps: "Can I, in good conscience, ask the Lord's blessing over this?"
__________________


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## BobVigneault (Mar 28, 2007)

Bob? Bob?
Bert I think you meant to attribute that quote to my friend Bill.


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## Herald (Mar 28, 2007)

BertMulder said:


> Bob, I would be very careful, if I were you, not to tilt the plank the other way, and slide into the abyss of antinomianism and lawlessness. There is a fine balance here. Yes, we have Christian liberty, but let us not use this liberty for an occasion for the flesh.
> 
> Everything is lawful for me, but everything does not edify.
> 
> ...



Bert, I am being careful. If I could sum up my response to Kevin, it would be thus: "How can you judge another with sweeping generalizations?" I am not seeking to justify wrong behaviors or count myself righteous by works. This is not about seeing the movie "300" or going to church every moment the doors are open. If you share Kevin's opinions, then by all means abstain from movies, television or buying CD's. But don't create a filter that all believers must pass through in order to be righteous and god-fearing in your eyes.


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## Herald (Mar 28, 2007)

BobVigneault said:


> Bob? Bob?
> Bert I think you meant to attribute that quote to my friend Bill.



Bob, don't correct brother Bert. He was stroking my ego and tying to elevate my social strata.


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## turmeric (Mar 28, 2007)

BaptistInCrisis said:


> Bert, I am being careful. If I could sum up my response to Kevin, it would be thus: "How can you judge another with sweeping generalizations?" I am not seeking to justify wrong behaviors or count myself righteous by works. This is not about seeing the movie "300" or going to church every moment the doors are open. If you share Kevin's opinions, then by all means abstain from movies, television or buying CD's. But don't create a filter that all believers must pass through in order to be righteous and god-fearing in your eyes.



Is this what you're getting at?

[bible]Colossians 2:20-23[/bible]


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## kvanlaan (Mar 29, 2007)

As far as I can tell from Matthew Henry, Col 2:20-23 speaks to ceremonial law, the combining of Mosaic law with following Christ - not sure if it is applicable here. I am talking about NT injunctions only.


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## kvanlaan (Mar 29, 2007)

So how would you address the two instances below, Bill? 



> If I go to a strip joint just to learn new dance moves and have a beer and can say that I am not brought to adulterous thoughts by my presence there, does that mean that no brother should have the audacity to speak to me of the wickedness I am participating in?
> 
> Find the benefit to a Christian in these verses:
> 
> ...



1. Can any of us stand before the Lord and say that these were acts that fell under "Christian Liberty", that we saw our brother partake thereof and said not a word? 

2.Can we ask the Lord to bless the time spent in enjoying these activities? 

Can you honestly say that numbers 1 and 2 would be too much of a "filter"? Is that "self-made" religion? 



> don't create a filter that all believers must pass through in order to be righteous and god-fearing in your eyes.



_I_ did not set a filter. Bert did not set a filter. I don't think it matters how holy you are Bert's eyes, and I don't think that's the intent in his post.

But can you read scripture and say there is not a call to live apart from the world? 

We often run away with one main idea or theme without considering the rest: 
Christian Liberty - I may do absolutely anything that is not expressly forbidden in Scripture.
True Religion - as long as I look after widows and orphans, I am good to go.
The greatest is this, love your neighbour as yourselves - I love my neighbour, I am following the greatest commandment of all.

Granted, these are largely expressions of liberal theology, and I am not pointing that finger at you. But now: "Why do you live as though I never gave you a law?" - bring that up and there is a firestorm of legalism thrust your way. Why? Does it offend? If it does, then _why_? Is it that we see it as an intrusion? Remember, we are not just told what to _do_, we are even told what to _think_ in the Gospel.

Better yet, address Spurgeon's quote from a previous post:



> If you were God's children, you would loathe the very thought of the world's evil joys, and your question would not be, 'How far may we be like the world?' but your one cry would be, 'How far can we get away from the world? How much can we come out from it?' Your temptation would be rather to become sternly severe, and ultra-Puritanical in your separation from sin, in such a time as this, than to ask, 'How can I make myself like other men, and act as they do?"'



Destroy it, take it apart, fine. But here before you I hold up a godly man and his exhortations - reply to this admonition, _please_. What did he mean if not to tell us to come away from the world in a material and visible way?

Again, I must point to the OP and ask why we kick against scriptural admonitions so forcefully? Why, if we hold godly men as examples (Poole, Henry, Calvin, Farel, Owen, etc.) and seek to live as they did, why do we then frolic with the world with such abandon? Where is the attraction?


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## satz (Mar 29, 2007)

Kevin,

I think this has been a good thread, and there is admonishment here that is worth considering. It has certainly caused me to consider more how I am redeeming the time in my own life. That said, it still seems to me there is a little bit of talking past one another going on in this thread. I am not sure Bill or anyone was advocating watching ‘300’. On the other hand, I think some of the answers given did seem to be answering a different question to the one you posed. Maybe it is just me. 

I think it is worth noting that sometimes the reason these sort of entertainment threads are so poorly participated in is not necessarily completely because those to partake in entertainment are scared to defend their choices ( it maybe, to a certain or even to a large extent, I don’t know) but also because even if you happen to believe there is liberty to partake of some (not all) entertainment, there is generally little value in defending it publicly. Romans 14:22 tells us that if we have faith (to do something) we ought to keep that between God and ourselves and not broad cast it publicly. There are some areas of Christian liberty I believe are worth defending and debating over but if a brother or sister comes to the conclusion that he or she ought not to partake of any of the world’s entertainment, I generally would not see any value in challenging them on that even if you were to assume they were being overly ‘extreme’. Some may also not want to risk being painted with the board brush that sometimes is used against those who speak in favor of entertainment. It often seems those who say it is OK to partake of some, or a little entertainment are accused to saying it is OK to partake of all and any entertainment. I am not sure what in the course this thread took caused you to use the two extreme examples of a strip club and that particular song, but I guess this would be an example (I am not accusing you of the broad brush method, just taking the example). I am not sure anyone here would argue for Christian liberty to do those particular things. 

Please take the following just as my thoughts regarding your OP and why I think it is not necessarily a sin per se, to partake in _some_ entertainment. I will confess to being a stickler for privacy, so I don’t particularly care to share on a public forum what my exact personal position on these things is, though if it means anything at all, I did not think your OP or any of your subsequent posts were legalistic in any way. 

At this stage, I believe (and I guess some would disagree) there is a degree to which we can use the world in a manner that does not necessarily amount to sin (1 Cor 7:31). 

I believe that it is possible for Christians to partake and appreciate the art of unbelievers. Though they are not regenerate, unbelievers are still able to appreciate things like color, tune, tone etc and hence are capable of producing worthy pictures, music, stories etc. I do not disagree that everything the unbelieving produce is wicked to varying degrees, as Proverbs 21:4 says, even their plowing is sin. However, I do believe that it is possible for Christians to appreciate certain aspects of what the unbelieving do without having to approve of all aspects. Hence in 1 Corinthians 9 Paul could present the devotion to their sport of the pagan athletes of his day as something positive in a limited fashion and use it has an example of what the Corinthian Christians should imitate in their own spiritual lives by way of diligence and self sacrifice to reach a goal. This despite the fact that I am sure he would have condemned their overall character severely. Likewise Paul had no problems with quoting from pagan literature and did not feel that his use of those things meant he was approving of everything they contained. I am aware of course that the examples I presented are not of _entertainment_ per se, but I believe they do show that it is permissible to take certain aspects of the worlds things while ignoring the rest. As another example, in 1 Corinthians 10:27, Paul told the Corinthians that if an unbeliever was to invite them to a feast, they were free to go if they wanted to. A feast hosted by an unbeliever will without doubt in many aspects be a ‘thing of the world’ and there will be much that goes on there (even if there are no obvious and severe sins) that will grate against the conscience of a sincere believer. Yet there was an extent to which a believer could simply appreciate the social hospitality (and food!) and ignore the rest. Obviously this is only to an extent, as Paul did not envisage believers attending any and everything that believers might invite them to, as he warns in his Epistles against revels and banqueting.

Now lets assume, even if you disagree, that we accept the proposition that a Christian is allowed to partake of _some_ entertainment without sinning. That still leaves the very pertinent question of why would they want to? As a very theoretical kind of answer, I would say there is a degree of freedom. When Paul was addressing the idea of Christians being invited to feasts by unbelievers he simply said ‘and ye be disposed to go’ – if you feel like going, then go. Obviously there is the implied fact that a Christian should not go if to do so would involve him in sin and temptation, but there was that degree of freedom given even in attending such a ‘worldly’ event. In this case I believe the character of said event would need to be examined and that it is definitely possible to press the liberty given beyond the expedient into the sinful. However, if you can go and not sin, there is a certain amount of liberty.

It is not my desire to see how close we can get to the world and not sin, though I confess that is a temptation I struggle with, and that my words could be construed as such. As I said before I am grateful for your post and find much to consider and be admonished by in it. Yet at the moment if a believer (or myself, I’ll be honest) were to find a particular song, or show, or sport created by an unbeliever that they feel they can enjoy in good conscience before the Lord, I would not see it as sin.


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## Herald (Mar 29, 2007)

turmeric said:


> Is this what you're getting at?
> 
> [bible]Colossians 2:20-23[/bible]



Meg, you're the Queen of brevity! You said more with your post then I did in all my words. Lesson learned.


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## BertMulder (Mar 29, 2007)

My intend here is not to lay down laws and regulation. 

We may not impose laws, which God never commanded.

My personal experience has been, that we learn, spiritually, as we grow. There was a time in my life that I did not see anything wrong at all in partaking of the things of this world. Used to love to go to hockey games, for example. Now I cannot stand even the atmosphere there...

Not all people experience growth of personal faith in the same way. Am not imposing on anyone my personal growth. However, I do wish for all of us, including myself, a large amount of spiritual growth.

And God is the judge, not me. So ask Him for approval, not me. Let your conscience, in the Spirit, guide you, not your carnal desires.


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## kvanlaan (Mar 29, 2007)

> ...in good conscience before the Lord



There it is. Can we do what we do in good conscience before the Lord? I guess that's for each of us to address privately.

Mark, I _do_ think that we have been shooting past each other on many of the issues. I don't know that any of the core questions were actually addressed, but that is not for lack of trying by all sides; it is simply a difficult topic to fully flesh out because we tend to get caught up in the smoke and thunder that surround such issues. I would also rather that the issues had been addressed objectively, but subjectivity creeps in quickly and quietly in such matters.

I _don't_ think it is healthy or scriptural to get to the point where we find ourselves watching paint dry in our down time because we think anything else is sin. I don't think it is scriptural to push 'the world' from intruding on our manner of conveyance until we are left riding a horse without a saddle because that's as much as the Lord gave us during Creation. And perhaps the hyperbole of the examples was not edifying, but _where_ do we draw a line? 

I guess part of the issue is that I _do_ feel comfortable sharing private feelings on the PB because we tend to be 99.99% in agreement (though that .01% can be a doozy), and we're not going to find that level of consensus even in most congregations.

Anyway, it is perhaps better to desist from pressing for an answer and make it an issue of personal contemplation. Better that than fostering discord among brethren.

Blessings.


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## BertMulder (Mar 29, 2007)

trevorjohnson said:


> So you have explained that you used to go to hockey games, but now you have "grown".... How do you know that you have grown?
> 
> Because you have marked off another activity that the world engages in off your list? Is this your proof of your spiritual growth? How do you know that you are growing and not merely becoming a pharisee.
> 
> ...



Brother, to address your concern stated above, and to clarify my position:

Going to hockey games is not perse wrong. As such I do not forbid anyone from attending hockey games, including my children. I came to the personal conclusion though, that I would sooner spend the time on spiritually edifying things, than attending hockey games. Although it may have to do with me getting married about the same time... 

And this is not about crossing things of a list, or being legalistic. This is, for the most part, clearly in the area of Christian liberty. It is Scripture, not I, that says not to use this liberty for an occasion for the flesh. As it is your liberty, I do not dictate. I merely state what I do, and that does not judge your behavior. I do own a television set, for the record. I do not watch a whole lot of TV, because I decided it was not for my spiritual growth. 

The reason I get my back up, is because as soon as we get on this topic, we start to get the slinging of names as 'legalistic' and 'pharisee'. It ought not to be such among us. My actions do not condemn yours. Your action should not condemn mine. In that, leave the judging to God. Let me serve God the way my conscience dictates. You serve God the way your conscience dictates.

Let us not impose laws on each other, which God has not commanded. But also, let us not use the liberty, God setting us free, for an occasion for the flesh.

If you have problems with this conclusion, in my opinion your problem is not with me, but with Scripture.


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## Herald (Mar 29, 2007)

> There it is. Can we do what we do in good conscience before the Lord? I guess that's for each of us to address privately.



That is my point. Why is this so difficult to understand? 

If your posts are simply to encourage believers to live godly in this present age, then you will have no argument with me. If you want to publicly announce that you don't go the movies, buy CD's, or go to sporting events (just examples) then I hear you and applaud your abstinence for the purpose of godliness. But what does that have to do with anyone else? Each individual must act in accordance with the word of God. When the bible is not clear on a matter their conscience should bind them.


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## BertMulder (Mar 29, 2007)

BaptistInCrisis said:


> That is my point. Why is this so difficult to understand?
> 
> If your posts are simply to encourage believers to live godly in this present age, then you will have no argument with me. If you want to publicly announce that you don't go the movies, buy CD's, or go to sporting events (just examples) then I hear you and applaud your abstinence for the purpose of godliness. But what does that have to do with anyone else? Each individual must act in accordance with the word of God. When the bible is not clear on a matter their conscience should bind them.



Brother, you are forcing me to a conclusion after a conclusion. If I did what you state above, I would be a self righteous idiot. Hope the Lord spares me from behavior such as that!

We do our good works not to earn by them, or to show any righteousness in ourselves. We do them out of thankfulness.


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## Herald (Mar 29, 2007)

BertMulder said:


> Brother, you are forcing me to a conclusion after a conclusion. If I did what you state above, I would be a self righteous idiot. Hope the Lord spares me from behavior such as that!
> 
> We do our good works not to earn by them, or to show any righteousness in ourselves. We do them out of thankfulness.



Bert, I wasn't responding to you in my last post. I quoted Kevin and was responding to his post. 

I am going to bow out of this thread. It's reached its life expectancy.


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## kvanlaan (Mar 29, 2007)

Bill, while I was trying to close this discussion gracefully above, I simply can't appreciate the "if you want to publicly announce that you..." etc. etc. I did not start this thread as a publican on a street corner that others may see my (self) righteousness. 

My earlier posts, I thought, were clear - _I_ struggle with this. I am not the head of the Sanhedrin, I am asking for _clarification_ on incongruencies that I see. My questions, I thought, were clear. To paraphrase, I asked, among other things, "How is it that we speak so highly of Puritans and live in a way that is so very different from them?" The quote from Spurgeon followed that up with the usual Spurgeon balance of fire and eloquence. But your response did not, I feel, address the questions and instead brought out the cries of 'legalism' and the ever-popular "don't tell me how to live my life." Fine. As Bert said, and I feel the same, I am not trying to lay down the law. But after several corpulent posts back and forth, the questions still stand unanswered. 

Bow out, that is your choice. But the comment that the thread has reached its "life expectancy" is premature, as none of the issues have actually been addressed. 

I was hoping to hear, in addition to scriptural references, some historical references, perhaps arguments on changing culture, and maybe a comment or three on what Spurgeon was _really_ getting at when he said what he did. 

But no. Pharisee. Pope. Legalism. That's what it boils down to, I guess.


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## Herald (Mar 29, 2007)

Kevin - I probably am not the one to answer your questions. I wish I could. I'll be happy to reword my assertion that this thread has reached it's life expectancy. *For me *the thread has reached it end. 

I read into your statements more than just questions. I saw conclusion. If I am wrong, I apologize. It is not my intent to hinder your Christian growth. I struggle with my own inadequacies, and often wonder how a such a despicable person such as I can be a recipient of God's grace. But I know that abstinence or indulgence are not the keys to godliness. 

May God bless you in your service to Him.


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## turmeric (Mar 29, 2007)

I read a book a few years ago, can't remember the title, which described the Puritans as people who enjoyed the good gifts of God. For instance, they made beer and drank a _lot_ of it by our standards.

They did not approve of playing sports on Sunday, it's true. I think monergism.com has an article by Thomas Chalmers called _The Expulsive Power of a New Affection_ which explains for me how the Puritans maintained their standards. I don't think it's done by listing worldly things and deciding if you can do them or not. I think the Puritans were permanently in the "cage-stage" about the Gospel. For that reason, it was easy to give things up, they _wanted_ to because those things just weren't as cool as seeking God. In my humble opinion, I need to pray that the Holy Spirit will increase my love for Christ, my desire to meditate on Him and read His Word and seek Him out in prayer. Everything in me militates against this, I need to constantly pray to God for help against temptations, that's what's really going to fix this problem


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## kvanlaan (Mar 29, 2007)

Meg, thanks for that. I've read the same thing about the beer. They drank a _lot_ of it because it was safe to drink and the water was not (the very land of Virginia had a tendency to kill people back then, apparently). Kids drank a fair bit too!

Agreed on the prayer and devotion as well - the bigger He becomes in our lives, the less tempting/prominent the things of the world are to us.


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## satz (Mar 29, 2007)

Good post, Meg.


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## Augusta (Mar 30, 2007)

I am glad to see that this thread is still going even with the cries of legalism etc. I can totally identify with Kevin's struggle and I know I am not the only one because as I said this type of question has been asked before by a couple of different people on the board. I really wish as Kevin said that someone would engage on the merits. 

I know I am willing to be proven wrong in my thoughts on this if there are good comments and convincing scripture etc. I want to be at peace and have balance in my leisure activities. 

It is in gratitude to Christ that I seek to be pleasing in his sight. Guilt, grace, and gratitude just as Kevin mentioned. It's not for brownie points or to please men but to please God.

1 John 2:15-17 is really convicting for me.

15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 

16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 

17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. 

It is verses like those that give me pause.


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## ReformedWretch (Mar 30, 2007)

I often feel this way Traci, and would speak to it more but fear the legalist label or even being called a....baptist! (gasp!)


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## turmeric (Mar 30, 2007)

I think the question I'm asking isn't about whether people are trying for brownie points. It's more about how we go about living holy lives. I don't think it's by beating ourselves up, or making lists of things to give up, I think it's by going back to the Gospel until we are delighted with God, and then, who knows? We might want to skip that episode of _As the Stomach Churns _and read the Bible and a commentary instead, and it might at last be what we really want. At least some of the time.


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## kvanlaan (Mar 30, 2007)

Adam, would love to comment on your post but am far too distracted by your new avatar. That is about the most whacked-out one I've seen yet. How did you get an M&M to look like you?

BTW, don't worry about being labeled a legalist. You get to be Pope. It's fun! People come and kiss your ring, millions of people treat you like a rock star, but the love life is pretty minimal...


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## ReformedWretch (Mar 30, 2007)

kvanlaan said:


> Adam, would love to comment on your post but am far too distracted by your new avatar. That is about the most whacked-out one I've seen yet. How did you get an M&M to look like you?
> 
> BTW, don't worry about being labeled a legalist. You get to be Pope. It's fun! People come and kiss your ring, millions of people treat you like a rock star, but the love life is pretty minimal...



http://www.becomeanmm.com/


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## BertMulder (Mar 30, 2007)

In this connection, let us examine what the Lord requires of our walk, in regards to the world around us. I find the first letter of Peter helpful in this regard:



> 8Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
> 
> 9Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
> 
> ...


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## Dagmire (Mar 30, 2007)

I sort of skimmed through this thread, so I'm sorry if I'm repeating someone.

I just think it's a matter of the condition of your heart. I don't think the things you take part in or enjoy is the issue, but your motivation for doing them. Ask God to search your heart and reveal to you why you take part in certain things. If you become convicted over it, ask for grace to abandon it. Do not stand there and reason within yourself about whether or not it is truly wrong. If the Spirit leads you to stop something, stop it.

I started playing World of Warcraft a few weeks ago. I've now become quite convicted about it. I'm paying a monthly fee to waste my time and fellowship with unbelievers. In fact, I'm going to take my own advice and cancel it today instead of sitting there and waiting for my conviction to fade.

Thanks for making this thread.


In Christ,
Davis


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## Augusta (Mar 30, 2007)

turmeric said:


> I think the question I'm asking isn't about whether people are trying for brownie points. It's more about how we go about living holy lives. I don't think it's by beating ourselves up, or making lists of things to give up, I think it's by going back to the Gospel until we are delighted with God, and then, who knows? We might want to skip that episode of _As the Stomach Churns _and read the Bible and a commentary instead, and it might at last be what we really want. At least some of the time.



You have hit the nail on the head I think Meg. God changes our desires by the work of the Holy Spirit in renewing our minds. We suddenly either have a conviction about a certain thing or quit desiring it. I think we can and do fight this because the pleasures of this world are so pleasurable. I know I have and still do. Romans 12 deals with this. We still suppress the truth in unrighteousness on smaller levels, probably until we die. 

Romans 12
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. 

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.


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