# Appropriate Roles Laypersons, Specifically Women, Can Serve in the PCA



## Beezer (May 1, 2016)

Good evening,

I've been attending a PCA church in my area for a few months now and have noticed this particular church allows women to serve in various roles during the worship service that I haven't encountered before and to be honest it has started to bother me. I would be interested in the opinions of others as to whether non-ordained members, specifically women, can serve in these roles. 

Roles in Question:

1. This church pairs an elder with a female member of the congregation to lead worship each Sunday. The elder will open up the time of worship and then usually hand things over to a female lay-person who at times leads everything from the public reading of the scriptures, responsive readings, the time of confession, the offertory prayer, congregational prayer, etc. 

2. For the Lord's Supper, which this church celebrates weekly, there are a number of fixed locations in the sanctuary where non-ordained members pair with a deacon or elder to pass out the elements. Each family approaches the respective "station" near their seating area and both the ordained and non-ordained pass out the elements and offer a brief prayer. Usually it's an ordained member who passes out the bread and the non-ordained who distributes the wine. 

3. Today this church announced that for the upcoming season of nominating officers the congregation can nominate both men and women for deacon and the session will screen and appoint the women to serve as "diaconal assistants." The placement of select males and females as deacon assistants is in line with the PCA BCO 9-7, but judging from the roles above that women are allowed to function in I can't help but wonder whether the title "diaconal assistant" isn't just a distinction in title alone and that in practice there will be no difference at all between a male deacon and a non-ordained female deacon assistant.

To help put things in perspective this church has 6 teaching elders, 25 ruling elders, and 23 deacons. It's not like there are a lack of officers in the church to serve in leadership positions. 

Do the above roles I described not conflict with the directory for worship? 

Any opinions would be greatly appreciated!


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## jwithnell (May 1, 2016)

We can speculate from afar, but it's likely best to ask one of your elders directly and to request that the orthodoxy of the practices be demonstrated from scripture. Often the situation you describe comes from a concern about trying to be inclusive and demonstrating support for people from all walks of life. If you end up believing that these practices demonstrate a scriptural deficiency, address your concerns decently and in order.


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## Beezer (May 1, 2016)

My family is considering transferring our membership to this church, so this is certainly something I intend on discussing further with elders prior to joining.

How about in the OPC, does your denomination permit non-ordained members to lead parts of the corporate worship? 

Thanks.


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## jwithnell (May 1, 2016)

I can say that I haven't observed anyone other than the elders and deacons in an OPC pulpit on a Sunday morning. A fair amount of care is taken in placing non-worship items (announcements, children's events etc.) outside the time of worship delineated by the call to worship and the benediction. All people are encouraged to participate in the general life of the congregation.

I find your description of the Lord's table especially troubling, not because of the women involved (though that role is reserved for the elders in every conservative presbyterian church I've seen) but because of the dispersion of the event. We see the disciples gathered together around the leadership of Jesus and being led in prayer and the partaking of the elements. Your description sounds more like the type approach I've seen in congregations with no fencing of the table, and time becomes the most important consideration in herding folks through.

BTW, are you planning to move? What is prompting a change in church membership?


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## Edward (May 2, 2016)

Beezer said:


> 2. For the Lord's Supper, which this church celebrates weekly, there are a number of fixed locations in the sanctuary where non-ordained members pair with a deacon or elder to pass out the elements. Each family approaches the respective "station" near their seating area and both the ordained and non-ordained pass out the elements and offer a brief prayer. Usually it's an ordained member who passes out the bread and the non-ordained who distributes the wine.



I would consider this contrary to the BCO, but not for the reasons you might think. 

_58-5.

The table, on which the elements are placed, being decently covered, 
and furnished with bread and wine, and the communicants orderly and 
gravely sitting around it (or in their seats before it), the elders in a convenient 
place together, the minister should then set the elements apart by prayer and 
thanksgiving.

The bread and wine being thus set apart by prayer and thanksgiving, 
the minister is to take the bread, and break it, in the view of the people, 
saying ...

Here the bread is to be distributed. After having given the bread, he 
shall take the cup, and say..._

So we see, first, the congregation should be seated, and second, that there should be two separate, sequential distributions. 

As for receiving the elements from a woman - when I am seated in the pew (and I almost always sit on the right end of a pew) the elements are either going to be passed to me from the right by an elder, or from the left by my wife. For others on the pew, the elements are always going to be passed to them by a lay person or deacon, with close to even odds that it will be a woman. 



Beezer said:


> 1. This church pairs an elder with a female member of the congregation to lead worship each Sunday. The elder will open up the time of worship and then usually hand things over to a female lay-person who at times leads everything from the public reading of the scriptures, responsive readings, the time of confession, the offertory prayer, congregational prayer, etc.



While this would cause me concern, I do not believe that it violates the BCO. 



Beezer said:


> I can't help but wonder whether the title "diaconal assistant" isn't just a distinction in title alone and that in practice there will be no difference at all between a male deacon and a non-ordained female deacon assistant.



If the deacons are ordained, and the deacon assistants are commissioned, they appear to be functioning within the bounds of the BCO. (If the deacons are not ordained, there is more room to argue). Ordination is more than a distinction in title.


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## StephenG (May 2, 2016)

Beezer said:


> 1. This church pairs an elder with a female member of the congregation to lead worship each Sunday. The elder will open up the time of worship and then usually hand things over to a female lay-person who at times leads everything from the public reading of the scriptures, responsive readings, the time of confession, the offertory prayer, congregational prayer, etc.
> 
> 2. For the Lord's Supper, which this church celebrates weekly, there are a number of fixed locations in the sanctuary where non-ordained members pair with a deacon or elder to pass out the elements. Each family approaches the respective "station" near their seating area and both the ordained and non-ordained pass out the elements and offer a brief prayer. Usually it's an ordained member who passes out the bread and the non-ordained who distributes the wine.



These would make me uncomfortable. In our presbytery, the reading of Scripture in public worship is seen as a ministry of the offices of the church, and I think they get it right on that point. I think I would say the same about distributing the Supper, prayers, etc.


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## NaphtaliPress (May 2, 2016)

Find another church.


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## Beezer (May 2, 2016)

I appreciate the insights offered in response to my initial post. 

I re-read what I wrote and I think as written I may have inadvertently given the impression that I have concerns surrounding only the roles of non-ordained women and that the roles of non-ordained men are of no concern to me. I detected this when I read what I wrote again. The roles of non-ordained members that I expressed concerns with would equally apply to men; however, in the specific church I've been attending it seems that women have been exclusively sought out to fill these roles during worship and not men. I thought this point was worth clarifying.

I'll have to think about these concerns some more and read through the PCA BCO more closely, then engage the elders directly on these things.

As far as the recommendation of finding another church goes that is certainly on the table. Though unrelated to the subject of this posting, I also discovered yesterday that this particular PCA church is a sending/supporting body of an Anglican Church (ACNA) that is being planted nearby. I was unaware of this until I found a promo for it in the foyer. This is another area of concern that I'll need the elders explanation on. Not sure how this is even permissible. A PCA church sending/supporting an Anglo-Catholic ACNA mission? 

Interesting times. Thanks again.


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## yeutter (May 2, 2016)

Beezer said:


> ing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sometimes in the past Episcopal Churches have housed and to some extent nurtured PCA congregations when they lost their property to the old apostate denomination. In recent years, I have heard of a couple of examples where the Presbyterians have reciprocated the favor. h

Reactions: Like 1


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## Edward (May 2, 2016)

yeutter said:


> I have heard of a couple of examples where the Presbyterians have reciprocated the favor.



Independent Presbyterian in Savannah (not PCA) hosted Christ Church after it withdrew from the PECUSA (or TEC, if you prefer) for several years. Christ Church has now moved into its own facility (a former Presbyterian church). All Souls Anglican in Cherry Hills NJ is meeting at Covenant Presbyterian (PCA). There are likely other examples. 

Around here, the strongest Episcopal church negotiated an exit that allowed it to keep a multi-million dollar facility; another Episcopal church went to Rome, while one even ended up in the PCA. The local Episcopal bishop at the time was a straight shooter.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Beezer (May 3, 2016)

Thomas & Edward,

Thanks for these examples of Presbyterian/Anglican interaction. I was completely unaware. I'm curious as to whether the Anglican churches in these instances are/were more low church evangelical like and not high church Anglo-Catholics.

Wonder what George Gillespie would think...


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