# Question about youth group sacraments



## Mindaboo (Feb 25, 2011)

Tonight my teens are participating in the "30 Hour Famine". They will spend 30 hours fasting with the other teens from our church who will spend the night focusing on children in other countries who don't have enough eat. We allowed our kids to participate, but I just got a text from my daughter saying they were having communion tomorrow after the fast is over. We have instructed our children not to partake tomorrow. Our pastor is the one administering the sacraments and I think, but am not sure, that at least one elder will be there helping with this. 

Is this biblical? Are we wrong to instruct our young adults not to participate? I thought that the sacraments were to be administered during a called, corporate worship service. If I am wrong please set me straight.


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## Grillsy (Feb 25, 2011)

It must be done within the context of corporate worship. Presbyterians have steadfastly held to this for years. Since you have a TE and RE presiding is it not a called worship service? Or are they just ending the fast and passing out the elements?
I'm not sure if I would be comfortable with the latter. Then there is the obvious problem of this service only being for a certain group. 
Have you spoken to your pastor about this?


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## Notthemama1984 (Feb 25, 2011)

My first reaction is that you made the correct call. The sacraments are to be a corporate event, not only for a specialized group.


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## Grillsy (Feb 25, 2011)

I remember a time when I was still with the Holiness churches. We held a youth service and the "youth minister" administered communion with Doritos and Pepsi.


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## TimV (Feb 25, 2011)

Or at the last couple weddings I went to, with the bride and groom on one case and them and the parents in the other doing Do It Yourself Communion.

Some of our theologically advanced members have pointed out that even when administering communion to invalids etc... they try to have a couple church members along so it has the trappings of a corporate act. Sorry if my language is a bit off. But Brad's a good man, and you're a gem, and I'm sure you've thought this all through well.


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## jogri17 (Feb 25, 2011)

Is your denomination PCUSA by chance? 

I'm no expert on PCA Polity, but doesnt this go against BCO?
http://www.pcaac.org/BCO 2007 Combined for Web.pdf

58-3. It is proper that public notice should be given* to the congregation, at 
least the Sabbath before the administration of this ordinance*, and that, either 
then, or on some day of the week, the people be instructed in its nature, and a 
due preparation for it, that all may come in a suitable manner to this holy 
feast. 
58-4. On the day of the observance of the Lord's Supper, *when the sermon 
is ended*, the minister shall show: 
a. That this is an ordinance of Christ; by reading the words of 
institution, either from one of the Evangelists, or from 1 Corin- 
thians 11, which, as to him may appear expedient, he may 
explain and apply; 
b. That it is to be observed in remembrance of Christ, to show forth 
His death till He come; that it is of inestimable benefit, to 
strengthen His people against sin; to support them under 
troubles; to encourage and quicken them in duty; to inspire them 
with love and zeal; to increase their faith, and holy resolution; 
and to beget peace of conscience, and comfortable hopes of 
eternal life. 
Since, by our Lord's appointment, this Sacrament sets forth the 
Communion of Saints, the minister, at the discretion of the Session, before 
the observance begins, may either invite all those who profess the true 
religion, and are communicants in good standing in any evangelical church, 
to participate in the ordinance; or may invite those who have been approved 
by the Session, after having given indication of their desire to participate. It 
is proper also to give a special invitation to non-communicants to remain 
during the service. 

I put in bold my questions as to if this practice violates the PCA book of order. I presume this is a PCA church.


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## Andres (Feb 25, 2011)

I disagree with the way your pastor and elder are administering the Lord's Supper also. I think you are doing the right thing by telling your children not to participate and you and Brad should probably bring this up to your elders.

---------- Post added at 07:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:56 PM ----------




Grillsy said:


> I remember a time when I was still with the Holiness churches. We held a youth service and the "youth minister" administered communion with Doritos and Pepsi.



I remember doing this too except we used Dr Pepper. I have since repented for taking the sacrament of the Lord's Supper so lightly.


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## Scott1 (Feb 25, 2011)

> Presbyterian Church in America
> Book of Church Order
> 
> CHAPTER 58
> ...



The Book of Church Order, part of the constitution of the denomination, is binding here and reflects confessed doctrine.

Part of that is that Holy Communion is not "private," and that advance notice ought be given to allow for preparation.

I'm not sure of all the facts here, but it would seem the issue is only advance notice so other members of the congregation could participate if they so choose.

If that is done, and the Lord's Table is decently and properly administered (e.g. warn unbelievers), it appears there is a Minister present to do this.

If we're not missing something in facts, this appears it could be fine.


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## Grillsy (Feb 25, 2011)

Andres said:


> I remember doing this too except we used Dr Pepper. I have since repented for taking the sacrament of the Lord's Supper so lightly.



As have I brother. In many ways it is wonderful to look at the past and see how far the Lord, in His grace, has brought us.


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## Mindaboo (Feb 25, 2011)

No, we are not PCUSA. We are PCA. The pastor is only on his third week on the job. We've not contacted him. We have tried to contact our elder. Please pray for us as we address this with our Session. We love and respect these men. 

I am somewhat disappointed that this is happening in my church. I am thankful my daughter contacted me to see if what I thought. I know this will be awkward for them, but I am confident that they will submit to our teaching and instruction. I am grateful to have two teens that care enough to call and ask when they aren't sure what to do. 

There is no worship service and if it were, shouldn't they be calling the whole congregation together? The Word is not being preached as far as I know.

Thank you for your input. Please keep it coming.


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## Andres (Feb 25, 2011)

Mindaboo said:


> There is no worship service and if it were, shouldn't they be calling the whole congregation together? The Word is not being preached as far as I know.



The fact that the Word is not being preached is crucial also. The Lord's Supper proclaims the Lord's death until He comes again (1 Cor 11:26). It is the gospel proclaimed to our senses of taste, smell, touch, and sight. It should be accompanied by the gospel proclaimed to our ears, that is the Word audibly preached.


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## Mushroom (Feb 25, 2011)

A Ruling Elder has informed me that there will be a short sermon, after which he and the Pastor will administer the elements. I told him I have concerns about it still, and would have to mull it over before giving my kids my blessing to participate. I asked him to call me tomorrow before the event if he had any more arguments in favor of it, so I would have the opportunity to give them the OK if I was convinced. At this point I am not, for 2 main reasons:

1. There was no admonition or instruction given to allow for due preparation of which I am aware. Nothing was stated in the bulletin last Lord's Day.

2. This was not announced to the congregation so as to allow any that would desire so to participate.

Also of concern is the fact that these are the most immature members of our Church, many of whom are not yet communicants. The exclusive nature of this strikes me as devisive and cliqueish. I'm envisioning small groups, men's study, and the quilting club having private communions. Am I in error to have reservations about this?


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## Romans922 (Feb 25, 2011)

No, they were told of it tonight, how are they to prepare their hearts? 

Another question I suppose to ask is at Presbytery meetings should elders in their worship together partake of the sacraments. Similar question.


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## sdesocio (Feb 25, 2011)

Im not sure we can put all these motives on the church. The sacrament should be accompanied by the preached word, administered by the Minister. I doubt its a kids only celebration of the Lord's table, I'd bet that any parents or other members who would be there would be invited to commune, and that no one would be asked to leave. Working as a youth minister in seminary it would not shock me that information does not pass smoothly from teen's ears to their parent's attention. Events like this are planned long in advance, Id be surprised if there wasnt advanced notice, that just wasnt well distributed. In addition the PCA BCO does not say that communion can only happen in a worship service. It doesnt use that language. 
Now all that being said, I have no personal information on the event, and Id probably tell my kids to hold up. If its your church and you are in the PCA they would have to have the above requirements met. If its 30 hours you have the ability to call someone on the session tmrw about it. Personally, as a former youth leader, Id beg for charity =) Helping to shepherd teens brings with it many unique challenges. 

Pastors when they bring communion to the shut in might try and bring others, but I haven't heard of them making a public announcement of their intention.

I think Andrew is correct we have communion every 4 meetings in our Presbytery. Communion at GA means that we can't give public notice to the "the congregation" since a congregation " consists of all the communing members of a particular church".


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## Jack K (Feb 25, 2011)

Even though I don't like it, I think I might be able to get over the fact that only one day's advance notice was given and the entire congregation not made aware. You could argue, at least, that a day of fasting is ample preparation time and the spirit of the one week rule is being followed. Not really the right way to do it. But I might not force my kids to abstain based solely on this.

What I would strongly question is the wisdom of making communion a part of this sort of youth group activity, period. As you've mentioned, there are, not surprisingly, many non-communicants in the bunch. Plus they're away from their parents who might be able to give guidance, or might have concerns like you do. Plus they're likely a group that's especially susceptible to peer pressure when it comes to taking part. All these factors usually make doing communion with a youth group an unwise move, even if the BCO procedures are all followed.


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## Grillsy (Feb 25, 2011)

sdesocio said:


> In addition the PCA BCO does not say that communion can only happen in a worship service.



The BCO may well not make that specification but the Scriptures certainly do. It is a corporate act that must done in the context of public worship. This is universally recognized in the Reformed community.


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## Pergamum (Feb 25, 2011)

Chaplainintraining said:


> My first reaction is that you made the correct call. The sacraments are to be a corporate event, not only for a specialized group.


 
Isn't a youth GROUP a corporate event?

Will a minister administer the sacraments? This seems to be a more important question. Many allow ministers to deliver the sacraments to sick people at their bedside without that being a corporate event. How is this different if a minister is there?

---------- Post added at 04:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:45 AM ----------

Also, is it worse to take the sacraments if not done precisely to our liking (a thing can be irregular and still valid and legitimate despite its irregularity) or is it worse to refuse to take the sacraments at all and deny one's self the means of grace?


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## Edward (Feb 26, 2011)

I would suggest investigating first, and then acting if necessary. It seems that there is a presumption of wrongdoing, when the facts that are available don't yet support such a conclusion. You might be able to nail him on the adequacy of the notice. But when the thread started, there was a question as to whether there would be an elder other than the pastor there - we now know that there will be; there was a presumption that there would be no sermon, it now appears that there will be one. I'm not willing to presume inadequate notice at the present time.

I would suggest at this point a reflection on Matthew 18.


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## Mindaboo (Feb 26, 2011)

> It seems that there is a presumption of wrongdoing, when the facts that are available don't yet support such a conclusion. You might be able to nail him on the adequacy of the notice. But when the thread started, there was a question as to whether there would be an elder other than the pastor there - we now know that there will be; there was a presumption that there would be no sermon, it now appears that there will be one.



You are right. I wasn't aware there would be a sermon. There seems to be a lot of miscommunication with the youth group leaders and the parents. I wish they had told the parents what was going on. Please don't misunderstand my motives. I am not trying to nail the new guy. I am only trying to guide my teens through something that they need to seriously consider. 

I apologize for misleading anyone. That was not my intent. I am in no way trying to stir up trouble in my church. I love my church and will do all I can to pursue the peace and purity of it. I love my pastor and my elders. I respect each man deeply. They know that.


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## Scott1 (Feb 26, 2011)

I would use this as a teaching point, humbly with regard to Chapter 58 of the Book of Church Order. It has some general and specific requirements as to administration of the Lord's Supper, so it is handled carefully.

The points are, that many may not be conscious of (many of us would not have understood this even recently) is that the Lord's Supper
1) is to be carefully and decently done (e.g. warn off unbelievers),
2) that actual grace to strengthen faith of believers is present,
3) that we are to prepare in advance, e.g. "examine" ourselves, (as with the sabbath)
4) that it is not a private, exclusive sacrament, but recognizes the benefit to the Body of Christ

The one Sabbath's advance notice is not in the Bible, and the particulars are not even drawn by good and necessary consequence. Rather, it is taken from a principle of advance preparation, and the openness of communion to all believers who are not approaching it in major unexamined, unrepented sin.

So, use this as a gracious occasion to point out this part of the BCO, humbly, as something that many of us would not have been aware of, either.


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## Pergamum (Feb 26, 2011)

For all believers, I believe that one day of notice should be plenty to give people due time for preparing to take the Lord's Supper. 

One hour should as well.

Why would you need a lot of time?


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## sdesocio (Feb 26, 2011)

> This is universally recognized in the Reformed community.



I dont think thats true at all. I know of a churches that hold the supper after a meal together on Sunday afternoon. I know of many others that have communion on Sunday evening. In addition calvin apparently had times when communion was several times in a week.


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## Bookmeister (Feb 26, 2011)

I think the fact that there is a pastor and an elder there is good, the fact that there will be the word preached is good, the fact that this is a corporate event is fine. What is not fine is that these are all minors without parents there and there are non communicants there. I would question the pastor and elder as to why they want to do this, not allow my children to participate and use this as a teaching opportunity and explain to them why.

Also, I might kindly suggest this new pastor ask others in the Presbytery for their opinion, we never stop learning, even after being granted a MDiv.


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## Jack K (Feb 26, 2011)

Mindaboo said:


> I wish they had told the parents what was going on.



Yup. I hate to advocate giving the pastor and youth group leader a hard time. But even if nothing else comes of it, they need to learn from this incident to communicate better with parents.


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## Grillsy (Feb 26, 2011)

sdesocio said:


> > This is universally recognized in the Reformed community.
> 
> 
> 
> I dont think thats true at all. I know of a churches that hold the supper after a meal together on Sunday afternoon. I know of many others that have communion on Sunday evening. In addition calvin apparently had times when communion was several times in a week.


 
What does that have to do with what we were talking about? I think you misunderstand what I am saying. The Lord's Supper, if celebrated, must be celebrated during corporate worship. That does not necessarily restrict it to Sunday morning worship. 

It is emphatically true that the Reformed churches have, except in a few instances, believed that the Lord's Supper takes place during corporate worship. That is just the way it is and has been.


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## Scott1 (Feb 26, 2011)

Pergamum said:


> For all believers, I believe that one day of notice should be plenty to give people due time for preparing to take the Lord's Supper.
> 
> One hour should as well.
> 
> Why would you need a lot of time?



Just looking at it from the standpoint of what the denomination requires, it is practical application of confessed doctrine- if it is in the constitution (Book of Church Order) and has been adopted as binding (this chapter has been by the PCA), it must be followed as a matter of discipline.

It's a matter of confessed doctrine, and oath, especially for a teaching elder.



> Presbyterian Church in America
> Book of Church Order
> 
> 
> ...



So, the confessed doctrine, the constitution (which reflects good order and submission to the brethren) is where one has to begin if they are in this denomination. (Just like with deacon polity). Officers are under oath, witnessed by God to, in good faith, follow.

This has got me thinking about the advance notice requirement-

1) is it to allow people time to prepare to come and attend or
2) to provide time for people to examine their lives, their sin as best they can before taking the sacrament.

I'm still considering that.

But your implication that an hour is enough is valid for discussion, certainly for a denomination that does not have this requirement that the PCA does.

The more I learn of the sacraments, the more conscious I become of how real the grace is they provide, and how important it is they be carefully handled.

If there was somehow advance notice, the Pastor being there and an elder being there, I can see how administering the sacrament in this context could be biblical, and okay by denominational practice.


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## Pergamum (Feb 26, 2011)

So, "at least a Sabbath before" is the non-negotiable in order to be "Confesssional"?


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## Scott1 (Feb 26, 2011)

Pergamum said:


> So, "at least a Sabbath before" is the non-negotiable in order to be "Confesssional"?


 
No.

But following the Book of Church Order is required.

That's part of church discipline.

The Book of Church order, being based on confessed doctrine (and polity) is received by public oath by a Pastor, who asks God to witness his fidelity to that oath.

Understand, the one week requirement is not required by Scripture, so it's not a matter of that. This particularly would not be required in the church at large, not even in another biblical, reformed denomination.

I'm still studying through the nature of the principle of advance notice and advance preparations, biblically.


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## Curt (Feb 26, 2011)

It would seem that the main problem here is communication. There are too many "secret" things that happen in too many congregations. While this may not have been intended to be secret, it is undoubtedly being viewed that way by some. As a pastor, I have problems with people inviting "some" to events that are intended to be for all. They simply "forget" to give notice to some or don't make public announcements. I think that the congregation should expect no less than this from the Teaching and Ruling Elders.

That being said, cut the new pastor some slack and explain what has happened and/or appeared to happen and discuss how to avoid it in the future.


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## Mindaboo (Feb 26, 2011)

> Why would you need a lot of time?



I don't want to get too caught up in the time requirements. The one thing I would like to point out is that as their mother I spend a good deal of time the week before our communion service praying with my kids, and focusing them on the fact that we are coming to the Table on Sunday. I haven't had the opportunity to guide and instruct them in this way. While it is a table of grace it isn't something that should be taken lightly. 

I am personally thankful my church exhorts us to pray and consider communion the week before. I think this is just an oversight, but it saddens me.


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## Southern Presbyterian (Feb 26, 2011)

We're done here. There's a whole lot of assumption going on and wrongfully attributing motives, in my opinion.

Thread closed.


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