# Ummmmm....



## J. Dean (Jan 6, 2012)

Not sure about this one... at all...

Prayers and ink: Flint Township church opens tattoo parlor inside its doors | MLive.com


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## GulfCoast Presbyterian (Jan 6, 2012)

Sounds like a bad idea about which no one would speak up. The whole tattoo thing scares me. Needle phobic diabetic regards.


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## BobVigneault (Jan 6, 2012)

How relevant they are. There are many churches today that don't dare to be relevant. This is a very relevant move, very relevant indeed. Their relevancy numbers are going through the roof. You can't be too relevant if you want to impact the world today. This church is guaranteed to leave their mark on the culture. I wish them relevance.


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## toddpedlar (Jan 6, 2012)

BobVigneault said:


> How relevant they are. There are many churches today that don't dare to be relevant. This is a very relevant move, very relevant indeed. Their relevancy numbers are going through the roof. You can't be too relevant if you want to impact the world today. This church is guaranteed to leave their mark on the culture. I wish them relevance.



They'll certainly leave their mark on their culture, and on people's rear-ends. 

I wonder if they'd be willing to tattoo a person's forehead with something along the lines of "I belong to the Lord of Glory"?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jan 6, 2012)

Tatooing is one of the more bizzare things being embraced by the YRR subculture. 

That and bowties.


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## BobVigneault (Jan 6, 2012)

Why can't we have tattoos... THE CANAANITES HAVE THEM???!!! We want 'em!

Bow ties, don't even get me started. Pastors that wear bow ties have left the reservation... outside the camp... running amok... loose cannons... tossed about by every wind of change.


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## Alan D. Strange (Jan 6, 2012)

Bob:

You are hilarious and I appreciate it: welcome humor amidst tough issues that many of us are dealing with. Full of grace; full of grace.

Peace,
Alan


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## Rich Koster (Jan 6, 2012)

BobVigneault said:


> How relevant they are. There are many churches today that don't dare to be relevant. This is a very relevant move, very relevant indeed. Their relevancy numbers are going through the roof. You can't be too relevant if you want to impact the world today. This church is guaranteed to leave their mark on the culture. I wish them relevance.



No matter how relevant it is, it is not logical. The Vulcans practice no such practice.


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## Alan D. Strange (Jan 6, 2012)

Precisely, Br. Koster

"Jim, I'm a doctor, not a tattoo artist!"

Peace,
Alan


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## BobVigneault (Jan 6, 2012)

You are correct Rich, live long and prosper.


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## raekwon (Jan 6, 2012)

Yeah, it's a little chintzy, but they gave a struggling small business owner help in staying sober and an opportunity to keep his business. That's a positive.


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## Southern Presbyterian (Jan 6, 2012)

BobVigneault said:


> How relevant they are. There are many churches today that don't dare to be relevant. This is a very relevant move, very relevant indeed. Their relevancy numbers are going through the roof. You can't be too relevant if you want to impact the world today. This church is guaranteed to leave their mark on the culture. I wish them relevance.



Isn't it possible to be so relevant that you become irrelevant?


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## SolaScriptura (Jan 6, 2012)

raekwon said:


> Yeah, it's a little chintzy, but they gave a struggling small business owner help in staying sober and an opportunity to keep his business. That's a positive.



... and the tattoo parlor is closed on the Lord's Day. That's another positive.


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## BobVigneault (Jan 6, 2012)

That is the church's problem and not only the church but the individual believer. Back in the 70s, believers started this identity effort to have different groups for Jesus. You had athletes for Jesus, bikers for Jesus, carpenters for Jesus and so on. The problem is, it breaks up the body into little bodlets and disintegrates the church. But the biggest problem is, you become as irrelevant as the group your are connecting to Jesus. We are ambassadors of the Kingdom and ministers of reconciliation with the Father but then we lower our relevance when we attach our identity in Christ to some worldly venture.

It's much sadder when the church does it. The church is the propagator of the Gospel from generation to generation; entrusted with the proclamation of the Cross. Our mission is to preach the Gospel and equip the saints but then, we tie ourselves to little groups or movements and we become as relevant (or irrelevant) as that group or movement. 

I am a staunch pro-lifer but I have never actually joined a pro-life group because then people will question my motives. I'm pro-life because I'm a believer who recognizes the authority of Scripture. I'm not a Pro-Lifer. Does that make sense.

The church, in trying to be relevant, becomes more irrelevant with every attempt.



Southern Presbyterian said:


> Isn't it possible to be so relevant that you become irrelevant?


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## Southern Presbyterian (Jan 6, 2012)

BobVigneault said:


> I'm pro-life because I'm a believer who recognizes the authority of Scripture. I'm not a Pro-Lifer. Does that make sense.



Yes, perfect sense. And I agree.


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## BobVigneault (Jan 6, 2012)

Many years ago, I rebuked a pastor for preaching "Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs" TWO times for Christmas Eve services. His conclusion was "Isn't it amazing how Jesus satisfies all 5 of those needs?" He told me that he knew a lot of people would be there and he wanted something that would be relevant to everyone. I replied, "THE GOSPEL! THE GOSPEL! ALL have sinned and fall short, but God..." There is nothing more relevant and urgent and valuable than the proclamation of the Gospel for IT is the POWER for SALVATION. Anything the church does to try and add relevancy only becomes a DISTRACTION to it's great commission. I am so jealous for the Gospel and it just sickens me to see so many "ministries" work themselves so fervently into irrelevancy.


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## Rich Koster (Jan 6, 2012)

BobVigneault said:


> That is the church's problem and not only the church but the individual believer. Back in the 70s, believers started this identity effort to have different groups for Jesus. You had athletes for Jesus, bikers for Jesus, carpenters for Jesus and so on. The problem is, it breaks up the body into little bodlets and disintegrates the church. But the biggest problem is, you become as irrelevant as the group your are connecting to Jesus. We are ambassadors of the Kingdom and ministers of reconciliation with the Father but then we lower our relevance when we attach our identity in Christ to some worldly venture.
> 
> It's much sadder when the church does it. The church is the propagator of the Gospel from generation to generation; entrusted with the proclamation of the Cross. Our mission is to preach the Gospel and equip the saints but then, we tie ourselves to little groups or movements and we become as relevant (or irrelevant) as that group or movement.
> 
> ...



Yes, it makes sense. I used to participate in public demonstrations. At each one, there was always an attempt to get you to join this group or support that group or pro-life politician. I refused to. The majority of them are run by RC's. They try to get you to join in a spiritual battle with them. I can't do spiritual battle with people who pray to The Virgin Mary, sorry. Then I was hit with arguments (from within a congregation) that these people must be born again, or they wouldn't be sacrificing so much for the unborn. I told them that boils down to justification by pro-life activism, and it is warped thinking. Why did I write this? Because I agree with the point about tying a worldly event/activity to Jesus. It just makes a mess.


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## Unoriginalname (Jan 6, 2012)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Tatooing is one of the more bizzare things being embraced by the YRR subculture.
> 
> That and bowties.


I take umbrage to that bowtie remark.


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## raekwon (Jan 6, 2012)

Unoriginalname said:


> Backwoods Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> > Tatooing is one of the more bizzare things being embraced by the YRR subculture.
> ...



Hear, hear!


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## BobVigneault (Jan 6, 2012)

Oh, Oh, it's time to refill the umbrages; people are starting to take them with more frequency. I was aiming at Pastor Tim Phillips, I forgot about you guys.


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## Southern Presbyterian (Jan 6, 2012)

BobVigneault said:


> There is nothing more relevant and urgent and valuable than the proclamation of the Gospel for IT is the POWER for SALVATION. Anything the church does to try and add relevancy only becomes a DISTRACTION to it's great commission.



a very big AMEN to that!


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## GulfCoast Presbyterian (Jan 6, 2012)

SolaScriptura said:


> raekwon said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, it's a little chintzy, but they gave a struggling small business owner help in staying sober and an opportunity to keep his business. That's a positive.
> ...



I will admit I failed to consider this aspect.


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## Unoriginalname (Jan 6, 2012)

BobVigneault said:


> Oh, Oh, it's time to refill the umbrages; people are starting to take them with more frequency. I was aiming at Pastor Tim Phillips, I forgot about you guys.


I take even more umbrage at the mocking of my word choice!


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## GulfCoast Presbyterian (Jan 6, 2012)

Bawb takes exception to your collective umbrage!


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## J. Dean (Jan 6, 2012)

London umbrage is falling down... had to say it.

Anyway, I've never liked tattoos personally, but I fail to see what good comes of things like this. Yes, that the owner didn't go belly up is good, but I would think that turning the owner to another business that can utilize those talents in another way (a T-shirt printing business for example).


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## a mere housewife (Jan 6, 2012)

I always carry an umbrage in case of rain.


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## toddpedlar (Jan 6, 2012)

Heidi beat me to it... was going to go with something like

"Novel:Novella :: Umbrage:?"


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## raekwon (Jan 6, 2012)

Is the printing of t-shirts morally superior to tattooing?


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## Unoriginalname (Jan 6, 2012)

If I use the word exasperate am I safe from the onslaught of puns?


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## Southern Presbyterian (Jan 6, 2012)

No one can take more umbridge than this woman:

View attachment 2576


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## GulfCoast Presbyterian (Jan 6, 2012)

raekwon said:


> Is the printing of t-shirts morally superior to tattooing?



Although the ceremonial law is a different animal than the moral law, I think you could make an argument for that, sort of along these lines:

1.“You shall not make ANY CUTTINGS IN YOUR FLESH for the dead, nor TATTOO ANY MARKS on you: I am the Lord” (Leviticus 19:28)

2.“Do NOT think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did NOT come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.” (Matthew 5:17-18)

3.“Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?” (1 Corinthians 3:16)

4.“Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.” (1 Corinthians 6:19)

5.“If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.” (1 Corinthians 3:17)

However, I could make the same argument for total abstention from twinkies on the same premise, so nevermind!


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## DMcFadden (Jan 6, 2012)

As an owner of more than 50 bowties, I am ready to challenge Bawb to a duel to defend my honor. How about a quick draw contest to see who can fill and empty a pocket protector with pens? Uncouth, hairsuite, aging hippies with their sitars, incense, Sargent Pepper and Jefferson Airplane LPs, waterbeds, and tie dyed t-shirts are in such large glass houses that they dare not throw stones at those of us aging nerds who have embraced our inner dork and proudly wear the bow.* 

As for the tatoo fascination, I still have to stifle a gag reflex when observing "sleeves" and anything beyond a demure tiny butterfly. I wonder if they will be doing tats of "Jesus" on those bodies. What about a cool skull and crossbones or Satan caricature? 

Yes, Bawb, the reality and marketing value of a relevant ministry is its own reward. Scampering on the treadmill of being in the forefront of the "church of what's happening now" will keep a person running fast enough to qualify for a marathon! There will ALWAYS be a "new and improved" cultural novelty to keep one funning to catch up. How sad.

* Full disclosure: I once had a ponytail, long beard, burned incense, listened to late '60s rock, and my wife and I slept on an old fashioned "rock and roll" waterbed for 20 years.


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## a mere housewife (Jan 6, 2012)

Unoriginalname said:


> If I use the word exasperate am I safe from the onslaught of puns?



I'm terribly afraid nothing is safe. You just get worse puns with words like that --

For instance, you've heard of the theological term_ ex opere operato_. I believe it was Cicero who coined the term (to describe the nature of many Puritanboard discussions) _ex spiro exasperato_.

(You should probably stick with 'umbrage'.)


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## DMcFadden (Jan 6, 2012)

You can't make this stuff up!



> *Justin Bieber has made a lifelong commitment to Jesus Christ – with a tattoo.*
> The 17-year-old “Baby” singer was spied on a Los Angeles beach on Jan. 5 sporting a large portrait of the Son of God on his left calf.
> The black ink portrait, which is approximately about 5” tall, appears to be inspired by an illustration for “The Mysteries of the Crown of Thorns,” written by a Passionist Father in 1879.
> Click here for more Justin Bieber photos from X17 Online.
> ...


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## Alan D. Strange (Jan 6, 2012)

The rain...it raineth on the just
and the unjust fella
but mostly on the just
for the unjust 
stealeth his umbrage...oh, wait...
that doesn't work! Someone will probably take umbrella (no, it's already been pinched!). 

King Charles I (1625-1649) had as his motto "Dum spiro, spero" (While I breathe, I hope).
I suppose after Cromwell was through with him (the Presbyterians opposed the regicide, btw), he was exasperated (only formerly hopeful, and breathing). 
As the custom in those days, his head was put on London umbridge.

This is what's called "It's Friday afternoon and I'm avoiding writing."

Peace,
Alan


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## Backwoods Presbyterian (Jan 6, 2012)

While a good biblical case can be made against tattoos I just find them tacky and frankly rather pointless. 

Besides they look ridiculous when you are older.


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## athanatos (Jan 6, 2012)

GulfCoast Presbyterian said:


> raekwon said:
> 
> 
> > Is the printing of t-shirts morally superior to tattooing?
> ...



So, in the last sentence, you basically say "Forget all I just said, this was just silly nonsense"?

If so, then I agree:

Q and A

---------- Post added at 03:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:59 PM ----------




DMcFadden said:


> You can't make this stuff up!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for posting. I didn't know he claimed to be a Christian.


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## BobVigneault (Jan 6, 2012)

My family crest is a cluster of grapes and I sometimes regret that I didn't get that tattoo'd on my chest years ago so now they would look like raisins.


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## Southern Presbyterian (Jan 6, 2012)

BobVigneault said:


> ...now they would look like raisins.



Or prunes.


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## GulfCoast Presbyterian (Jan 6, 2012)

athanatos said:


> So, in the last sentence, you basically say "Forget all I just said, this was just silly nonsense"?
> 
> If so, then I agree:
> 
> .



Not exactly. But I am glad to know we now have a definitive aribrator of "silly nonsense." Forgive me for wasting your time.


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## Rufus (Jan 6, 2012)

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Tatooing is one of the more bizzare things being embraced by the YRR subculture.
> 
> That and bowties.



Is this church related to the YRR thing? One of the reasons I started looking into the Reformed branch of Christianity was because of the silliness that has come out of the seeker sensitive fad (rock concerts and the like). Honestly if you want more congregants preach the gospel and the redeemed will come.


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## E Nomine (Jan 6, 2012)

Oddly enough, tattoos and bowties have switched places in terms of which one prevents you from getting a job.


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## JoannaV (Jan 6, 2012)

Appears to be a purpose-driven church, according to their facebook...


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## Marrow Man (Jan 6, 2012)

BobVigneault said:


> Oh, Oh, it's time to refill the umbrages; people are starting to take them with more frequency. I was aiming at Pastor Tim Phillips, I forgot about you guys.



I resent the insinuation that I wear the bowtie in order to appear "relevant" to the culture. I wear the bowtie for pragmatic reasons -- so that I don't stain my tie during church potlucks.

That, and I am now basing the fashion style of my run at the Presidency on Paul Simon's run in 1988:







So take that, Mr. Former-VP


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## J. Dean (Jan 7, 2012)

JoannaV said:


> Appears to be a purpose-driven church, according to their facebook...


 It is, more or less. The head pastor was Nazarene at one point in time. I don't know whether or not he still considers himself as such.

I have played in this church, I'm ashamed to say, for a Sunday morning service that resembled a rock concert far more than it did a real service. Looking back, I wish I had used a little more wisdom in my decisions. The fellow I played for is aspiring to be a Contemporary Christian music artist, and he's getting some peripheral success, but for now he hasn't seemed to get past the second tier so to speak. I'm not with his band anymore, though I pray for the best for him.


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## bookslover (Jan 7, 2012)

BobVigneault said:


> My family crest is a cluster of grapes and I sometimes regret that I didn't get that tattoo'd on my chest years ago so now they would look like raisins.



Ha! I can beat that. My family crest is two crossed Snickers bars on a background of French fries...


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## JimmyH (Jan 8, 2012)

GulfCoast Presbyterian said:


> 1.“You shall not make ANY CUTTINGS IN YOUR FLESH for the dead, nor TATTOO ANY MARKS on you: I am the Lord” (Leviticus 19:28)


If this is applicable under the new covenant what about Deuteronomy 25:5 ? I can't help but think of 1Corinthians 4:3 & 4:4 but since I've been a professional tattoo artist for over twenty years I suppose I have a dog in the fight. Glad my salvation depends on the grace of God and His gift of faith in my Lord Jesus Christ.


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## Bill The Baptist (Jan 8, 2012)

I think having a tattoo parlor in church is very contemporvant.


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## GulfCoast Presbyterian (Jan 8, 2012)

JimmyH said:


> GulfCoast Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> > 1.“You shall not make ANY CUTTINGS IN YOUR FLESH for the dead, nor TATTOO ANY MARKS on you: I am the Lord” (Leviticus 19:28)
> ...



Jimmy: In my post from which you quoted, I was offering a thought on Rae's question regarding t-shirt printing vs. tattooing. I clearly stated the ceremonal law is (no longer binding) different than the moral law. The point, which was apparently not clear, is that one can simply throw away an ill-advised t-shirt that we determine later does not honor God, or casuses another to stumble. An ill-advised tatoo (perhaps from pre-conversion) is not so easy. Thus, not so much "get rid of the tatoo artists," rather "use discernment in all things." For instance, I have a converted buddy who very much regrets his "Slayer" tat at the moment. As I humorously tried to point out (which was lost on some folks), this applies to a lot more things in life than tattoos, like food, choice of music, etc. 

Peace! 
Mark


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## chuckd (Jan 8, 2012)

J. Dean said:


> Anyway, I've never liked tattoos personally, but I fail to see what good comes of things like this. Yes, that the owner didn't go belly up is good, but I would think that turning the owner to another business that can utilize those talents in another way (a T-shirt printing business for example).



I'm reminded of The Pilgrim's Progress and Christian's answer to By-ends' question:

"Suppose a man, a minister, or a tradesman, &c., should have an advantage lie before him, to get the good blessings of this life, yet so as that he can by no means come by them except, in appearance at least, he becomes extraordinarily zealous in some points of religion that he meddled not with before, may he not use these means to attain his end, and yet be a right honest man?"


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## JimmyH (Jan 8, 2012)

GulfCoast Presbyterian said:


> Jimmy: In my post from which you quoted, I was offering a thought on Rae's question regarding t-shirt printing vs. tattooing. I clearly stated the ceremonal law is (no longer binding) different than the moral law. The point, which was apparently not clear, is that one can simply throw away an ill-advised t-shirt that we determine later does not honor God, or casuses another to stumble. An ill-advised tatoo (perhaps from pre-conversion) is not so easy. Thus, not so much "get rid of the tatoo artists," rather "use discernment in all things." For instance, I have a converted buddy who very much regrets his "Slayer" tat at the moment. As I humorously tried to point out (which was lost on some folks), this applies to a lot more things in life than tattoos, like food, choice of music, etc.
> 
> Peace!
> Mark


Thanks for the clarification Mark. I don't like the idea of a tattoo shop within the premises of a church. As far as tattoos go in general, they are certainly not for everyone. Whether they are sinful to get, or to apply, is something for debate I suppose. Not a debate I choose to have BTW. My brothers and sisters in the body of Christ accept me as I am, and the Lord does as well, so that is good enough for me. We all have to work out our own salvation and for those of us who are saved our works will be tried with fire on that day. Then we will 'know' for sure.


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## Unoriginalname (Jan 8, 2012)

This discourse has left me with a nagging question. Some people here, from what I gather will not say that tattooing is necessarily wrong, but will still say it is wrong to have a tattoo parlor in a church. So my question is if tattooing is a legit business why is it wrong for a church to share a building with it?


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## JimmyH (Jan 8, 2012)

Unoriginalname said:


> This discourse has left me with a nagging question. Some people here, from what I gather will not say that tattooing is necessarily wrong, but will still say it is wrong to have a tattoo parlor in a church. So my question is if tattooing is a legit business why is it wrong for a church to share a building with it?


A secular business has no place in the house of God AFAIC. Our Lord drove the money changers out of the temple. I don't see this as being any different. your mileage may vary.


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## athanatos (Jan 9, 2012)

A few things:
1. What makes a business necessarily secular or not? If a tattoo parlor is owned by Christians, isn't it a Christian business?

2. I don't see any good reason we ought not share building with that of another function. I have seen many churches (Reformed at that!) which were shared with that of another function entirely (dancing lessons, theatre, etc.). Christ is the new and greater temple; apples and oranges to compare our buildings in which the Church gathers to that of the temple God ordained in Israel.


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## Scottish Lass (Jan 9, 2012)

athanatos said:


> If a tattoo parlor is owned by Christians, isn't it a Christian business?


No, it's a Christian-owned business, but not necessarily a Christian business. The adjective can more easily describe the owner than the business, in other words.


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## athanatos (Jan 9, 2012)

Then, what makes a business Christian, if the adjective can be used to describe the business at all?


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## Peairtach (Jan 12, 2012)

> You can do it while still sticking to your moral code.



You can get your moral code - the 10C - tatooed on your chest.

---------- Post added at 01:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:50 PM ----------




JimmyH said:


> GulfCoast Presbyterian said:
> 
> 
> > Jimmy: In my post from which you quoted, I was offering a thought on Rae's question regarding t-shirt printing vs. tattooing. I clearly stated the ceremonal law is (no longer binding) different than the moral law. The point, which was apparently not clear, is that one can simply throw away an ill-advised t-shirt that we determine later does not honor God, or casuses another to stumble. An ill-advised tatoo (perhaps from pre-conversion) is not so easy. Thus, not so much "get rid of the tatoo artists," rather "use discernment in all things." For instance, I have a converted buddy who very much regrets his "Slayer" tat at the moment. As I humorously tried to point out (which was lost on some folks), this applies to a lot more things in life than tattoos, like food, choice of music, etc.
> ...



Tatoos have already been discussed exhaustively, of course, on the PB:

http://www.puritanboard.com/google.....y=10&siteurl=www.puritanboard.com%2Fforum%2F


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## JimmyH (Jan 12, 2012)

The fellow who owns the tattoo shop where I work, we've worked together for 16 years, is the head deacon in a local Baptist church. I told him about this thread and before I could quote the verse he said,"Leviticus 19:28, I know, anytime anyone has come to me with that argument, I tell them to read the whole 19th chapter, and then come back to me so we can discuss it. I've never had one person come back once they've read the whole chapter."


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