# Does the Apocalypse have liturgical elements?



## RamistThomist (Nov 23, 2014)

A common theme in commentaries on Revelation is that it portrays a liturgy in heaven. If that is true, and it appears to be on surface level reading, then how should that inform our own understanding of worship? If there is a such thing as a heavenly liturgy, should this liturgy be enacted on earth as well?


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## MW (Nov 23, 2014)

This is the revelation of Jesus Christ. The ceremonial elements of the book are introduced for the purpose of showing their fulfilment in Christ. They are "signified," not that they might be imitated, but that the transcendent value of Christ's person and work might be grasped in a concrete way. Liturgists who appeal to the book of Revelation are making a Christ of worship. What He has finished once for all, they presume to re-enact for the benefit of their own fancy. Meanwhile faith is famished.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 23, 2014)

MW said:


> This is the revelation of Jesus Christ. The ceremonial elements of the book are introduced for the purpose of showing their fulfilment in Christ. They are "signified," not that they might be imitated, but that the transcendent value of Christ's person and work might be grasped in a concrete way. Liturgists who appeal to the book of Revelation are making a Christ of worship. What He has finished once for all, they presume to re-enact for the benefit of their own fancy. Meanwhile faith is famished.



For the record I am not arguing incense and stuff like that. But it seems odd to say that the elements which are fulfilled in Christ are still ongoing in the Apocalypse. Further, incense is identified with the prayers of the saints, which does not seem to be directly related to whether or not it typifies Christ's work.


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## MW (Nov 23, 2014)

ReformedReidian said:


> Further, incense is identified with the prayers of the saints, which does not seem to be directly related to whether or not it typifies Christ's work.



In whose name and by whose merit do you believe the prayers of saints will ascend to God, find acceptance, receive an answer, and result in the vindication of the saints' cause in this world? The vision is intricately tied to the sacerdotal work of Christ.


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## RamistThomist (Nov 24, 2014)

MW said:


> ReformedReidian said:
> 
> 
> > Further, incense is identified with the prayers of the saints, which does not seem to be directly related to whether or not it typifies Christ's work.
> ...



I was seeing prayers of the saints as our praying in church.


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## whirlingmerc (Nov 24, 2014)

Do you mean there is a view that a small portion of Revelation portrays something like a liturgy or the whole is a litugy?


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## RamistThomist (Nov 24, 2014)

whirlingmerc said:


> Do you mean there is a view that a small portion of Revelation portrays something like a liturgy or the whole is a litugy?



Yes. There are a number of commentators today, along with some church fathers, that take this view. It gains support because throughout the OT we see scenes in heaven where the Trisagion is being chanted and there are statements like a "copy of the above."


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## whirlingmerc (Nov 24, 2014)

I don't think of Revelation as liturgy since the description is unveiling... but... in some senses it speaks of service
Some parts are described as a pageant
Some parts are historical, John on Patmos in a devotional on the Lord's day
Might be best to take it as all those and more

Revelation 22:3-5New International Version (NIV)
3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will -serve- him.

In ESV 'his servants will -worship- him"
Revelation 22:3-5New International Version (NIV)

worship serve being latergoi, where we get liturgy


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## RamistThomist (Nov 24, 2014)

whirlingmerc said:


> I don't think of Revelation as liturgy since the description is unveiling... but... in some senses it speaks of service
> Some parts are described as a pageant
> Some parts are historical, John on Patmos in a devotional on the Lord's day
> Might be best to take it as all those and more
> ...



Right. I don't think the whole letter is liturgical, though I do think much of chapters 4-11 are.


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## MW (Nov 24, 2014)

ReformedReidian said:


> I was seeing prayers of the saints as our praying in church.



The text speaks of the prayers of "all saints," not some saints praying in church. Besides, the focus is on what happens with the prayers of the saints, not on the way the saints pray.


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