# Discussion with an Arminian



## ~~Susita~~ (Jan 7, 2006)

Hello!

I was posting on another board and since I have a big fat signature saying "TULIP", we inevitably got on the subject of the sovereignty of God in salvation (yeah & good job to you too, Blade! .). Anyway, the one guy who is still interested in talking about it is fully Pelagian and is a strong advocate of baptismal regeneration. According to him, if one is not baptized Church of Christ, they are not saved period. I might be coming here more often if I'm not sure how to say things, as I'm still learning too  Your prayers would also be appreciated.

Thank-you!

[Edited on 1-8-2006 by ~~Susita~~]


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## Scott Bushey (Jan 7, 2006)

Susie,
Focus in on the elective decree to undermine their Pelagianism. Once you establish that God elects, all the works tumble to the ground. I've personally used this in regards to the JW's and C of C.


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## non dignus (Jan 7, 2006)

I sort of gave up on the brainwashed ones. There are alot of JWs around here. They don't seem to be interested in what the scripture says; only in closing the deal. I just feel like I'm wasting my time. 

I'm glad you don't think so! If he's really thinking about your arguments, GO FOR IT!!


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## ~~Susita~~ (Jan 7, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> Susie,
> Focus in on the elective decree to undermine their Pelagianism. Once you establish that God elects, all the works tumble to the ground. I've personally used this in regards to the JW's and C of C.



Thank-you, that _would be the best thing to start out with._


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## Scott Bushey (Jan 7, 2006)

> _Originally posted by non dignus_
> I sort of gave up on the brainwashed ones. There are alot of JWs around here. They don't seem to be interested in what the scripture says; only in closing the deal. I just feel like I'm wasting my time.
> 
> I'm glad you don't think so! If he's really thinking about your arguments, GO FOR IT!!



I'm with you David; I'm so over that.


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## Scott Bushey (Jan 7, 2006)

> _Originally posted by ~~Susita~~_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> ...


_

Yea; I would just ask them what the term means to them as it is stated in the 1st ch of Ephesians. Election is discriminatory, not inclusive._


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## ~~Susita~~ (Jan 7, 2006)

> _Originally posted by non dignus_
> I sort of gave up on the brainwashed ones. There are alot of JWs around here. They don't seem to be interested in what the scripture says; only in closing the deal. I just feel like I'm wasting my time.
> 
> I'm glad you don't think so! If he's really thinking about your arguments, GO FOR IT!!



Yes he seems to want to actually discuss things. That's the problem I had on the other board, they would read things... Maybe... Then they would insert their own version of what I said and try to convince me I said otherwise and it just got to be too much. This guy seems to have potential.


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## ~~Susita~~ (Jan 7, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bushey_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by ~~Susita~~_
> ...


_

Great chapter! Most of it is highlighted in bright pink _


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## Me Died Blue (Jan 7, 2006)

I'm basically with Scott in that a discussion of "election" and what that _biblically_ means and entails will get to the heart of the issue. While our act of faith and God's regeneration and drawing are both present in the conversion process, one _must_ ultimately answer the question of which one of them is the cause and source of the other at the deciding point. And Scripture could hardly be more clear on that matter, speaking of God as the source of our faith and of His election being unconditional rather than contingent.

Susie, one thing I hope could possibly be of some help is a list of Scripture I have compiled here on each of the "five points," along with definitions and explanations of each point as well as commentary on many of the Scriptures. I have also found that a discussion and demonstration of the biblical place of God's sovereignty in the providencial, minute affairs of every day often helps put His sovereignty in salvation in perspective more, and helps people understand and accept it to a greater extent. I have also compiled a list of many Scriptures illustrating that truth here.


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## Peter (Jan 7, 2006)

Tell him his pelagianism is inconsistent with his baptismal regeneration. If he believes regeneration is a moral power and nothing more than mere persuasion of the truth, pouring water on someone cannot accomplish this.

[Edited on 1-8-2006 by Peter]


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## biblelighthouse (Jan 7, 2006)

I don't know if the guy is interested in carefully reasoned arguments (probably not).

But if he happens to be one of those guys who is, you might have him take his time with this: 

http://www.biblelighthouse.com/sovereignty/calvinistlogic.htm

I dare him to actually take time with every Scripture and every argument in that article.


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## Tirian (Jan 7, 2006)

A friend and I were chatting in his driveway one morning when approached by JW's. We tried to communicate the grace of God to them and shared the Gospel with them in light of the merits of Christ. The thing that struck me was that the "agreed" with everything we said. There was nothing we could say that they didnt "agree" with - yet they would go on to say something totally inconsistent with what we had just discussed in the same breath. I can relate to those who say they feel like they are wasting their time!

Nevertheless, if God wills He will reveal Himself to your contact. I thank God that my father-in-law had the patience to continue to prompt me to think about various aspects of the doctrines of grace until, after many years, the doctrines stopped being alien to me.

May God give you the wisdom, the love and the patience to deal effectively with this person.

Matt


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## ~~Susita~~ (Jan 9, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Me Died Blue_
> Susie, one thing I hope could possibly be of some help is a list of Scripture I have compiled here on each of the "five points," along with definitions and explanations of each point as well as commentary on many of the Scriptures. I have also found that a discussion and demonstration of the biblical place of God's sovereignty in the providencial, minute affairs of every day often helps put His sovereignty in salvation in perspective more, and helps people understand and accept it to a greater extent. I have also compiled a list of many Scriptures illustrating that truth here.



Creiky, you're my new favorite person!!! That is definitely going to be a tremendous help, thank-you very much! I've been thinking about doing the same thing, as I roughly know where the verses are, but if they're not highlight they'll take too long to find.
Yes, the apostle Paul is a great example of God's irresistible call  Thanks!!



> _Originally posted by biblelighthouse_
> I don't know if the guy is interested in carefully reasoned arguments (probably not).
> 
> But if he happens to be one of those guys who is, you might have him take his time with this:
> ...



Yeah, I'm getting ready to see if he's replied to what I asked him on Friday. Let's hope he's one who is willing to grow.
I briefly examined the website you gave me - thank-you! - and I think someone in my family has been on it, too, as some of the links are a different color so probably my dad found that recently. 

Matthew Glover -- Yes, I know exactly how that goes! It is really quite frustrating. At times I find myself thinking that talking to a rock would have been more beneficial, but you never know how much sank in. Boy howdy it most certainly would be wonderful if through all this he became a stronger Christian! I've yet to experience this, as most of the people I talk to automatically reject the entire idea that their free will (works) is nowhere to be found. But I (we) must not give up hope! We don't know who God has chosen.

Thanks, y'all! 

And hey Blade, I saw your reply to the Wiccan person... WOW! That's all I can say. Kinda reminds me of that verse in Timothy... "Preach the Word..."


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## Bladestunner316 (Jan 9, 2006)

Dont give me any credit I dont want to think too high of myself. But I appreciate the compliment.

blade


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## Puritan Sailor (Jan 9, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Peter_
> Tell him his pelagianism is inconsistent with his baptismal regeneration. If he believes regeneration is a moral power and nothing more than mere persuasion of the truth, pouring water on someone cannot accomplish this.



I was thinking the exact same thing. It reminded me of Augustine's chief polemical argument against Pelagius, that if man has no original sin, then he has no need for baptism. Obviously Augustine's view of baptism was flawed in that regard, but the point is still good. Why be baptized if you already have the ability to save yourself? The symbolism of baptism says the exact opposite.


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## ~~Susita~~ (Jan 9, 2006)

Patrick and Peter,

Very interesting... Starting to click now


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## BrianBowman (Jan 9, 2006)

Susie,

I would read the Cannons of Dort carefully as well as John Owen's "The Death of Death in the Death of Christ". J.I. Packer's introduction to "Death of Death ..." alone will bolster your confidence to defend the Gospel of Grace. In my experience the biggest problem we face in the debate with Arminians is their "flesly confidence" and appeals to "common sense". In plain english, many Arminians are arrogant because they don't have a Biblical understanding of Theology Proper - the doctrines of God. nor to they acknowledge the TOTAL DEPRAVITY brought on by the fall and the absolute spiritual death it produced. Consequently, thave a distorted view of just how infinitely high the holiness of the God of Scripture is and this leaves them in a place of exalting their own human sovereignty. They cannot imagine that a "just God" would not avail Himself to provision salvation for all people of all time. In the Arminian "ecomomy" Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection does not *actually* save anyone - it only makes salvation "possible" - conditioned upon the exercise of the sinner's "free will". Arminianism is a devilish lie that ultimately makes man the cause of his own salvation.

[Edited on 1-9-2006 by BrianBowman]


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## Me Died Blue (Jan 9, 2006)

Packer's introductory essay to Owen's work (an essay which, which, as Brian mentioned, can alone serve to freshly put the importance and strength of the many facets of Calvinism--as well as the system as a whole--in perspective) can be found here.


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## Scott (Jan 9, 2006)

Susita: If you want scripture proof for the various points of Calvinism, youl will find The Five Points of Calvinism: Defined, Defended, Documented  invaluable.

BTW, I would start with total depravtiy. Basically, the natural man cannot do anything pleasing to God. Placing faith in God is pleasing to God. Ergo, the natural man cannot do that. For the natural man to produce faith on his own would be like a poison tree producing the healthiest of fruits.


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## ~~Susita~~ (Jan 9, 2006)

Woah, thanks for all the material, folks! This is great!


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## CalsFarmer (Jan 9, 2006)

Hello Susita, 

welcome to the board. 

I am afraid I mayhave to rain on your parade a bit here since I have first hand experience with the coc, so much that I am a member of a survivors group.

The coc is a brutal unforgiving, disfellowshipping (see shunning) anti church creedal but having over 100 unwritten creeds of their own mess. 

Congregations regularly dishfellowship the group down the road becasue of some unscriptural (you will hear that word a lot) practice. They use a thing called proof texting where they will take one verse and make a doctrine out of it disregarding everything else Gods word has to say. 

They will tell you they believe its Gods word but when you prove something to them out of scripture they will start proof texting you to death. They use circular logic arguments and everytihg you say will turn into an argument. Believe me I know and have lived through it. 

All of the insight here has been good but you really do need to do your homework on these people before you hit em up. 

Its a horrible theology as well as a way of life with family pressure to stay and not fall away. They could care less about God its all about what the church preachers say. BTW their coc preaching schools are not accredited and they know neither Hebrew or Greek. For the most part their preachers are uneducated and grossly misinformed about theology as a whole. They can even manage to ruin dispensationalism....

Proceed at your own risk.....its not going to be pretty. I can fwd some information and a board to troll if you like. 

I just pretty much gave up and walked away......


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## ~~Susita~~ (Jan 9, 2006)

I should have been more specific. I don't know him in real life, he is a member of a political website that I get on, so our conversation is over private message. There's no rush, so I'll have plenty of time to work out (or try to work out) the eisegesis.

And I'm glad that certain few didn't give up on me.


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## py3ak (Jan 9, 2006)

One thing that may be helpful is to point out historically how God takes the initiative:
In the Garden, God sought man out --man hid, God found him.
Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord --and then is the statement that he was upright and perfect in his generations
God called Abraham
God met Jacob at Bethel and at Penuel
God met Moses at the burning bush
The angel came to Zacharias
Gabriel came to Mary
The pattern is always the same; here are people who are not seeking God, and God seeks them out.


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## ~~Susita~~ (Jan 9, 2006)

Very good analogies, thank-you.

He replied - 
Notice in Eph 1 how many times Paul uses the phrase 'in Christ' or 'in Him'. The way the Ephesians were "in Christ" was by baptism, Gal 3:27. Salvation is found only "in Christ". Eph 1:4--According as He hath chosen us IN HIM before the foundation of the world. So those that are chosen are the ones that obeyed the gospel by being baptized and became Christians and are IN Christ. Therefore my view on "election" is that before the world began, God predestined a class of people called Christians to be saved. God did NOT before time randomly select particular individuals to be saved. Each person has to choose to become a Christian and be in that elect class of people. The way one becomes a Christian and become part of the 'elect' is by obeying the gospel and being baptized INTO Christ and if one is not 'in Christ' then he is not part of the 'elect'.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What I have so far, have to get busy around here and finish up later - 
Galatians 3:27 "“ "œFor as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." 

1 Peter 3:21 "“ "œThere is also an antitype which now saves us "“ baptism (NOT THE REMOVAL OF THE FILTH OF THE FLESH, BUT THE ANSWER OF A GOOD CONSCIENCE TOWARD GOD), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Acts 2:38 "“ "œRepent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Repent, then be baptized.

Romans 6:3. John MacArthur raises an excellent point regarding baptism: "œThis does not refer to water baptism. Paul is actually using the word "œbaptized" in a metaphorical sense, as we might in saying someone was immersed in his work, or underwent his baptism of fire when experiencing some trouble. All Christians have, by placing saving faith in Him, been spiritually immersed into the person Christ, that is, united and identified with Him. Certainly water baptism pictures this reality, which is the purpose "“ to show the transformation of the justified."


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## Scott (Jan 9, 2006)

Susita: What is your understanding of what, if anything, baptism does apart from its symbolism?


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## ~~Susita~~ (Jan 9, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Scott_
> Susita: What is your understanding of what, if anything, baptism does apart from its symbolism?



Baptism as commanded by our Lord is first and foremost identification with Christ, and then identification with His body, the Church. Baptism produces nothing except the blessings of being obedient to Christ. We are saved by faith, but baptism is that faith embodied in action. It is a pledge of loyalty to God and a testimony to the world of the new life that you have in Jesus Christ.

I hope this answers your question?


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## Scott (Jan 9, 2006)

Yes, thanks. As way of background, the reformed do not believe in baptismal regeneration but they do believe that the sacraments (baptism and the Lord's Supper) are means of grace and have saving power. By that we mean that they actually convey grace. As do the Word and prayer, the sacraments save us. They are not instruments of justification (the only instrument of our justification is faith alone) but they they save us because God's Holy Spirit works through them to strengthen and increase our faith. I am bringing this up b/c you seemed a bit uncomofrtable with your friend's saying that Rom. 6 and 1 Peter refer to baptism (water baptism). That is also the interpretation Reformed normally take (although our understanding of the effects of baptism differ dramatically from COC). Here are a few summaries of biblical teaching from the Westminster Shorter Catchism:

Q88: What are the outward means whereby Christ communicateth to us the benefits of redemption?
A88: The outward and ordinary means whereby Christ communicateth to us the benefits of redemption, are his ordinances, especially the Word, sacraments, and prayer;[1] all which are made effectual to the elect for salvation.
1. Acts 2:41-42


Q91: How do the sacraments become effectual means of salvation?
A91: The sacraments become effectual means of salvation, not from any virtue in them, or in him that doth administer them;[1] but only by the blessing of Christ, and the working of his Spirit in them that by faith receive them.[2]
1. I Cor. 3:7
2. I Peter 3:21

You will note that 1 Peter 3 is a proof text that the sacraments, like the Word and prayer, have saving power.

Anyway, I would suggest that this is the correct approach. In responding to your friend, you can agree that baptism saves. This is along the lines of saying "the Word saves" or "prayer saves." You can disagree with him in the way it saves. 

Scott


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## ~~Susita~~ (Jan 9, 2006)

I see the point you are making. And I have no idea how you knew I was a bit awkward with his proof-texting the verses talking about baptism! To be totally honest, I've never discussed this subject with anyone, as he is the first pelagianist I've met  It's a good thing this is over the computer so I can take my time and finish it up later.
Thanks!


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## Pergamum (Jan 9, 2006)

Paul says in Corinthians that he didn't come to baptize but to preach the Gospel. If baptism is neccessary for salvation, then this textis troublesome.


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## panta dokimazete (Jan 9, 2006)

As a simple exercise - ask your friend to compare the quantity of folks in Scripture that chose God before He chose them - OT and NT.


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## Scott (Jan 10, 2006)

"Paul says in Corinthians that he didn't come to baptize but to preach the Gospel. If baptism is neccessary for salvation, then this textis troublesome."

I agree that this is an important text. We must understand it is consistent with the various passages that state baptism saves and the like.


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