# Romans 7: Pre, Present or Post Conversion?



## thistle93 (Aug 17, 2012)

Hi! Wondering if you think Paul's exhortation to the sorrow of his sinful state is pre, present (meaning explaining what he experienced the moment of his conversion) or post conversion. Please explain why? 

I personally believe Paul is speaking of his post conversion experience. Though I could also see him re-explaining his conversion experience. But I do not know how anyone of the reformed view could say this is pre conversion, though I believe there are some in reformed camp who do. For me an unregenerate soul does not grieve over their sin. Rather the more a believer is sanctified the more sin he sees in his life and the more he hates it. 

Also any good books or articles that deal with topic. Thank you! 



For His Glory-
Matthew


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## PuritanCovenanter (Aug 17, 2012)

Keep in Step with the Spirit: Finding Fullness in Our Walk with God - J. I. Packer - Google Books The wretched man in Romans 7 by J. I. Packer.

http://www.chapellibrary.org/files/archive/pdf-english/cirs.pdf The Christian in Romans 7

The Packer article is real good. He also has a section in Knowing God that addresses this.


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## Scott1 (Aug 17, 2012)

Excellent works by Mr. Packer.

I've always understood the apostle to be struggling with the remnant of the Fall (the old nature) remaining in believers. This underscores both the depth and consequences of sin and the reality of mercy and grace (the new nature) in the life of a believer.


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## Guido's Brother (Aug 17, 2012)

There is a lengthy discussion of Romans 7 in this series of articles written some time ago. Maybe helpful.


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## J. Dean (Aug 17, 2012)

Scott1 said:


> Excellent works by Mr. Packer.
> 
> I've always understood the apostle to be struggling with the remnant of the Fall (the old nature) remaining in believers. This underscores both the depth and consequences of sin and the reality of mercy and grace (the new nature) in the life of a believer.


Agreee wholeheartedly. That Paul discusses this so soon after beginning to talk about sanctification (Romans 6) indicates he's talking about the Christian walk. Plus, he refers to it in present tense, not past tense. And this is one of the most comforting passages in Scripture for me as well, because if the apostle Paul had a struggle with sin (one that by his own admission he did not always secure the victory against temptation in his struggles), we can expect to have the same. It's a good reminder to us that, while we should look in general for signs of growth in our works, that our works will always be tainted with sin, and that our basis for salvation is the finished work of Christ and not our sanctification.


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## Jackie Kaulitz (Aug 17, 2012)

thistle93 said:


> Hi! Wondering if you think Paul's exhortation to the sorrow of his sinful state is pre, present (meaning explaining what he experienced the moment of his conversion) or post conversion. Please explain why?
> 
> I personally believe Paul is speaking of his post conversion experience. Though I could also see him re-explaining his conversion experience. But I do not know how anyone of the reformed view could say this is pre conversion, though I believe there are some in reformed camp who do. For me an unregenerate soul does not grieve over their sin. Rather the more a believer is sanctified the more sin he sees in his life and the more he hates it.
> 
> ...



Outside of the Reformed Camp, I've heard people claim it is pre-conversion but within the Reformed camp, I've never heard this. I consistently hear it is post-conversion within Reformed beliefs. Packer, Calvin, Piper, Horton all us on PB  heehee... consider it post conversion.


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## KMK (Aug 17, 2012)

> WCF 6:5 This corruption of nature, during this life, does remain in those that are regenerated; and although it be, through Christ, pardoned, and mortified; yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.



To which, Rom 7:5-8;25 are attached as a proof text. I think the Reformed generally agree that Rom 7 concerns our state between regeneration and glory.


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## J. Dean (Aug 17, 2012)

To be honest, the only people I've ever heard state that Romans 7 refers to pre-conversion are people in hyper-holiness movements. Even a good number of Arminians I know believe that Romans 7 is written in present tense by Paul.


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## jeclark71 (Aug 17, 2012)

I believe verses 7:21-25 and 8:1 show it is post conversion and I agree with your statement that no person outside of Christ would grieve their sin. Check out May 27, 2001 found this article on Monergism.com.


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## puritanpilgrim (Aug 18, 2012)

> To be honest, the only people I've ever heard state that Romans 7 refers to pre-conversion are people in hyper-holiness movements. Even a good number of Arminians I know believe that Romans 7 is written in present tense by Paul.



Robert Reymond has a whole section in his systematic theology book on Romans 7. He argues that it is pre. Also, Lloyd-Jones and Machen had this view. I remember Reymond stating many names that held this view. But, they are in the minority.


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## thistle93 (Aug 21, 2012)

I believe the pre-conversion view of Romans 7 is also that of Paul Washer.


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## J. Dean (Aug 21, 2012)

This blogger talks about J.I. Packer's commentary on Romans 7. It's quite good: A Key Insight about Romans 7 from a Conversation with J. I. Packer


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## Contra_Mundum (Aug 21, 2012)

I do think that Paul is talking about a hypothetical believer. I also think that he can see himself as that believer, and would acknowledge having such painful thoughts either in the past or even in the present.

At the same time, I don't think that he's doing a strict "autobiographical self-expression," the way these words are sometimes construed. There's a sense in which Paul--as a mature saint and minister of the gospel, as one who knows not only the source of this described-soul's frustration but also the correct remedy and response--has gone further, and dwells more and more in the "ch8-experience" than in the "ch7-experience." And I think that the variety of interpretations, even within the Reformed world, reflects the fact that some interpreters recognize the difficulty of trying to peg the Rom.7 man as belonging to one salvation-category or another.

As I see it, the main problem faced by the believer in Rom.7 is that he struggles with the fact of indwelling sin. The young/new believer is the most likely person to encounter the presence of this _monster_ and have it give him that awful PAUSE. "Oh, man! I thought I was saved, a Christian, and everything. And now I've gone and done this! What is wrong with me?" Many people get saved, come to a knowledge of the truth, and they think, "OK, terrific; I'm a child of God... NOW, I can finally obey the law. I can finally be the holy man I've always intended to be, but couldn't because of my sin problem."

And what happens? They wake up, and find out that while their heart now belongs to God (so they thought), hey-o! they still can't obey the law. They still can't _please God by law-keeping_. And that's what they may well have thought they would/should be able to do once they started on the narrow way, once they started following Christ. C'mon, how many people do you know who've been exactly there. Very, very ordinary stance; and exactly the kind of common issue that Paul, in preaching the gospel and dealing with a series of problems and questions about the gospel, would have dealt with often in ministry.

Yes, Paul can even put himself right there, even writing as a mature believer, right in the questions of a brand new and discouraged believer. "Hey, I deal with sin too; yes me, even after all the years, and all I've been through for the cause of Christ. How do you think I feel about my own indwelling sin? Yep, still got it; still there. Aaaargh! But let me tell you: there is more to the Christian life than this feeling of discouragement. Because there's more to living in Christ than checking yourself against the law 24/7. There's life in the Spirit. Look up to the victory; look not to yourself, but to Christ."

Paul needs ch.7 to properly relate the Christian to the facts of sin and law, in the aftermath of salvation by pure grace; and in advance of talking about Spiritual life.


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## Eoghan (Aug 21, 2012)

Lloyd-Jones espoused the view that it refers to Old Testament Christians. (i.e. inter-testamental transition) Don't anyone go off on a rant at me I am just quoting Lloyd-Jones. (Who was quoted by John Stott) 

Stott and FF Bruce seem to take the past history view.

Wilson, Philip and Calvin (and I) take the present experience view.


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## Ask Mr. Religion (Aug 21, 2012)

J. Dean said:


> To be honest, the only people I've ever heard state that Romans 7 refers to pre-conversion are people in hyper-holiness movements. Even a good number of Arminians I know believe that Romans 7 is written in present tense by Paul.


Indeed. It is a frequent claim of the Keswick and Exchanged Life proponents.

AMR


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