# Does God gift women with the gifts of teaching and exhortation?



## JBaldwin (Oct 3, 2008)

The discussion on the recent thread on the PCUSA made me think of this. 

From the discussions I've read on the topic, there seems to be two sides (with varying views) to the topic of women and the gifts of preaching, teaching and exhortation. This is with the understanding that both sides believe that women are to be under the authority of exclusively male leadership in the church as is clearly taught in Scripture. 

*One side*:


> if there is an office authorized to preach then there must be some activity called preaching forbidden to those who do not hold the office.


 
In other words, the activity of preaching is reserved to men alone. 

Some who hold this viewpoint also believe that woman are not allowed to teach or exhort in any form and that the Holy Spirit does not even give these gifts to women. 

*Other side*: The Holy Spirit does gift women to preach, teach and exhort, but they are not to teach to, preach to or exhort men. In the past (before the women's lib movement of the 1960s and 1970s, it was not uncommon in some churches for women to travel around and preach to women's groups. )

Some carry this a bit further and say that women may teach to, preach to and exhort men in any congregational setting, IF they are under the clear authority of the elders in the church AND that the elders are present to correct any error immediately. 


What does Scripture teach on the subject?


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## Grace Alone (Oct 3, 2008)

I certainly believe God gift's women to teach and exhort children and other women (Titus 2:3-4). When I see godly women like Susan Hunt, I see evidence of it.


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## Herald (Oct 3, 2008)

> 1 Timothy 2:11-14 11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.



Preaching or teaching to the church cannot be done without corresponding authority (Mark 1:22). This is a headship issue in which there is no scriptural ambiguity.


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## JBaldwin (Oct 3, 2008)

North Jersey Baptist said:


> > 1 Timothy 2:11-14 11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
> 
> 
> 
> Preaching or teaching to the church cannot be done without corresponding authority (Mark 1:22). This is a headship issue in which there is no scriptural ambiguity.



The male headship (authority) is not in question in this discussion. The question is how is that to be played out in the church? (I know what I believe, but I would like to hear some more explanation from others.)


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## Pergamum (Oct 3, 2008)

I work with several female evangelists who are quite gifted and teaching and exhorting women and children and witnessing to anyone who asks. 

I also work distantly with a single female bible translator and much unofficial teaching goes on in the process of translating, which she does under the blessings of the local church here.


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## JBaldwin (Oct 3, 2008)

> Also, in order to really address this question, we would have to ascertain what preaching is.



How do we define preaching?


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## biggandyy (Oct 3, 2008)

On another board I was _savaged_ by the folk there, especially the women for this response. The question was a little different but very much long the same lines.

The question was, since there certainly are women pastors in various denominations, should they and are they allowed to hold that office?

My answer was "Yes, they are allowed to hold that office under the auspices of Christian Liberty, BUT, if they do hold that office they are sinning against God and His Word."

All things are permissible, but not all things are profitable. In this instance, no matter how gifted a woman might be in expository and oratory, the exercise of that gift as pastor of a congregation becomes sinful in the sight of God and they ought not exercise their gift in this manner.

Like I said, I was savaged on all sides, conservative and liberal. Am I too far off base with this?


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## JBaldwin (Oct 3, 2008)

biggandyy said:


> On another board I was _savaged_ by the folk there, especially the women for this response. The question was a little different but very much long the same lines.
> 
> The question was, since there certainly are women pastors in various denominations, should they and are they allowed to hold that office?
> 
> ...



A woman would be clearly sinning if she stepped out of the bounds of authority of Scripture. 

Would you say then, that women are gifted with pastoral gifts? (preaching, teaching, exhorting?)


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## Pergamum (Oct 3, 2008)

North Jersey Baptist said:


> > 1 Timothy 2:11-14 11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
> 
> 
> 
> Preaching or teaching to the church cannot be done without corresponding authority (Mark 1:22). This is a headship issue in which there is no scriptural ambiguity.



Does teaching always confer ecclesiastical authority over a church though?

I know a church that held Greek lessons for its people, where they helped exegete I John I believe at the end (not sure about that last part)....but basically they brought in a female teacher of Greek even though the church would never allow a female pastor. 




A related topic is this: 

Those on the mission field often gather and give reports as a united body. Often women are called upon to give reports, suggstions about the state of the church, how outreach is to be done, etc. I have been taught by women on topics such as Member Care and missionary attrition and the history of missions and 


How about women mission speakers, or (similarly) women Bible school professors who teach subjects such as history, languages, Member Care, etc. 

....Or do they just need to be the secretaries and cooks?


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## Kim G (Oct 3, 2008)

biggandyy said:


> My answer was "Yes, they are allowed to hold that office under the auspices of Christian Liberty, BUT, if they do hold that office they are sinning against God and His Word."



I don't think something can be classified as "Christian liberty" if is transgresses the commandments of the Lord.


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## Grace Alone (Oct 3, 2008)

biggandyy said:


> On another board I was _savaged_ by the folk there, especially the women for this response. The question was a little different but very much long the same lines.
> 
> The question was, since there certainly are women pastors in various denominations, should they and are they allowed to hold that office?
> 
> ...



I think you'd have to consider that at least some of the denominations that allow women preachers are no longer a part of the true church. So the sin is broader than just the issue of women preaching.

I think you may be wrong on the Christian liberty statement. If it is a sin according to scripture, how can it be a matter of Christian liberty?

(Just saw that Kim posted the same thought as I was typing!)


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## biggandyy (Oct 3, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> A woman would be clearly sinning if she stepped out of the bounds of authority of Scripture.
> 
> Would you say then, that women are gifted with pastoral gifts? (preaching, teaching, exhorting?)



Yes. The exercise of those gifts are not limited to the Pastorate. In Sunday School teaching children and young adults, leading independent Bible Study, in all sorts of para-ministerial programs of the church.

In our congregation, as we practice the passages in question, a woman can not stand in front of the Pulpit on Sunday Morning and lead the congregation in Worship of our Lord. There are a plethora of activities of great importance in the Church that need to be attended, and all of them, save Leading Worship, are available to all gifted members of the Body of Christ.


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## biggandyy (Oct 3, 2008)

I have always considered the teaching of Christian Liberty to encompass ALL behavior because if it did not, then why did Paul add the clause, "but not all things are profitable"?

I agree that it can be interpreted with a wide view of human behavior or a narrow view of human behavior in mind. If wide, then the statement is a refutation of legalism, which is what I consider the point of the teaching to be.

If we get bogged down in every detail of our lives we begin to miss the point of the Liberty of Salvation. We are free to live not as slaves to the Law or sin but as slaves to Jesus Christ.

Rats... now I have to think this through again  Thanks for the tough questions. I don't mind being wrong if it is Jesus who is proved to be right in my life.


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## Pergamum (Oct 3, 2008)

Kim G said:


> biggandyy said:
> 
> 
> > My answer was "Yes, they are allowed to hold that office under the auspices of Christian Liberty, BUT, if they do hold that office they are sinning against God and His Word."
> ...




A thought that I do have is this, however.....[related to the "Christian liberty" issue].........


In matters that are not clear, it is also very often also sin to be overly-restrictive.


In matters of teaching authority (the ecclesiastical offices of the church) these are clearly male. 

However, I am unwilling to say at present that women cannot serve as teachers of secondary subjects in seminaries or aid mission groups with Member Care presentations and suggestions for best care of its people. Topics could include the languages, church or mission history, language and culture acquisition for mission groups, translation and literacy principles,


I would even say at present that the teaching authority of the church (male) could invite a women into their midst to teach on a limited subject, underneath that male authority. I have heard of the Greek example for a wednesday service....


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## Kenneth_Murphy (Oct 3, 2008)

The "preaching" however we want to define it is an activity that when preformed is made up of a set of sub skills/gifts that anyone may be given. To me, things like 'teaching' and 'exhorting' can and should be used in all types of contexts, not just religious. Where the bible seems to only be concerned with limiting when the context is specifically God's word. I don't think there is a limit to say women can't teach math in grade school for example. Or a cooking class to adults etc. Yet those settings of teaching use the same underlying gifts. Just like a gun, it's not the possession of it, but how you use it, and in what context, that deterines the rightness of the actions. I think God gives basically the same underlying gifts to men and women but doesn't authorize their use in all the same contexts and situations.


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## TimV (Oct 3, 2008)

> My answer was "Yes, they are allowed to hold that office under the auspices of Christian Liberty, BUT, if they do hold that office they are sinning against God and His Word."
> 
> All things are permissible, but not all things are profitable. In this instance, no matter how gifted a woman might be in expository and oratory, the exercise of that gift as pastor of a congregation becomes sinful in the sight of God and they ought not exercise their gift in this manner.
> 
> Like I said, I was savaged on all sides, conservative and liberal. Am I too far off base with this?



Kim and Janis got it. "All" in both Hebrew and Greek doesn't always mean the same thing in English. But in this case, even the context shows the Apostle didn't mean murder, paedophilia and necromancy.


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## Herald (Oct 3, 2008)

> The question is how is that to be played out in the church?



Women are not to teach or preach to the corporate body of believers, nor are they exercise authority over men. May they have a teaching ministry to other women or children? I would say yes, but under approval and guidance of the elders. The elders are responsible for the teaching that goes on in the church. If there is a woman's bible study being held, I still want to know the substance of the study. In that regard it is a headship and ecclesiastical issue.


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## Herald (Oct 3, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> North Jersey Baptist said:
> 
> 
> > > 1 Timothy 2:11-14 11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
> ...



I am clear to make the distinction between the ability to teach in a general sense and the warrant to teach to the corporate body of believers. A woman may be able to teach children or other women in a venue outside of general worship. So within the context of the corporate gathering of believers she is prohibited from teaching and preaching.


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## davidsuggs (Oct 3, 2008)

I think it is obvious that women should not preach, as in hold such a church office. I think it is equally obvious that many many women have been given the gift of teaching. Thinking immediately to Covenant College's President Neil Neilson's wife and all the teaching she has done and done so well. It is unbiblical for a woman to preach from the pulpit to the corporate church congregation. It is utter stupidity to refuse to be taught by women though. Many women, whom I have been blessed to be around, are far more beneficial in their teaching to those around them then so many men I have spent time around at the same time. Teaching and preaching are different. Holding office and not holdin office are different. But not holding office should not dictate that women are not given the gift of teaching because that is foolishness. It would be like me saying "The earth cannot move the opposite direction around the sun, therefore, it cannot move at all."


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## Herald (Oct 3, 2008)

JBaldwin said:


> > Also, in order to really address this question, we would have to ascertain what preaching is.
> 
> 
> 
> How do we define preaching?



In a general sense preaching is being a herald, proclaiming a message (greek κηπύσσω, kerruso). When specific to the gospel (εὐανγγλίζω, euagglelizo) it means good news. In worship the preacher is proclaiming a message from the scriptures which may include the more specific proclaiming the gospel.


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## Herald (Oct 3, 2008)

> Would you say then, that women are gifted with pastoral gifts? (preaching, teaching, exhorting?)



A woman may have the _ability_ to preach, teach and exhort but she does not posses the pastoral gift.


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## Pergamum (Oct 3, 2008)

North Jersey Baptist said:


> Pergamum said:
> 
> 
> > North Jersey Baptist said:
> ...





What do you mean by "the corporate gathering of believers" - if I see you on the wine and bread aisle of Krogers we can't celebrate communion can we?

If you come and have coffee with me and 3 other Christian families should we tell the womenfolk to be quiet if they start to usurpin' on us?


Or.... on a wednesday night meeting, if this a corporate gathering? Small groups? A family camp? Barbecue? Farewell dinner for a woman (who then cannot say a farewell speech)?


Is the conveyance of all spiritual truth to be called 'teaching" or can we nail down that teaching means the "authoritative voice of the pulpit"? If teaching means ANY and ALL spiritual truth than women need to keep silent totally lest they speak truth. But if teaching means the authoritative ecclesiastical authority of the church then women can do a great deal in the church, just not exercise church office or do the tasks tied to that office.

I am not being a knuclehead, but I think many of our churches have erred on the side of over-restrictiveness. Pastor Judy and Lesbo Leslie have invited our pulpits and so we are over-reacting often and being overly restrictive about what women CAN actuallly do. [Ps Pastor Judy is a real person I know...]


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## Herald (Oct 3, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> North Jersey Baptist said:
> 
> 
> > Pergamum said:
> ...



Pergy, the corporate gathering of believers is whenever the church is gathered for worship. I would extend that to any formal activities of the church where the word of God is proclaimed.


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## Herald (Oct 3, 2008)

Pergy,

I am not referring to sharing with one another outside of worship where pastoral authority is not an issue. I am directing my comments specifically to the preaching and teaching of the word of God when the church is gathered together.


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## Pergamum (Oct 3, 2008)

Again, what do you mean by "formal activities of the church"


Is a BarB Q formal or informal? 

If we send a single female missionary off for service overseas, do we allow her to speak at a special gathering about her experiences while standing behind the pulpit (i.e. give a testimony)?

Can we honor the Pastor's wife and allow her to "say a few words" at an event after the Sunday nigth worship?


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## Herald (Oct 3, 2008)

Pergy,

*sigh* Let me be as specific as I can be. Any time the church gathers (and for whatever reason: BBQ, worship, horse shoe pitching, TPing Rich's house) AND preaching/teaching is a part of that gathering, women are not permitted to teach/preach. I am not talking about the pastors wife saying a few words or a missions report by the teen group etc. I am being specific to the function of the pastoral gifts when the church is gathered. 

I hope this clears up what I have been trying to say.


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## Pergamum (Oct 3, 2008)

Okay, so we are on the same sheet!?!? - women CAN do a great deal but cannot preach, which is an act rightly to those entrusted with ecclesiastical authority?

If the church gathers for Greek lessons, a woman can teach. A woman can be employed as a seminary professor and teach many of the topics. A woman can give her testimony, a report ofher work overseas, or sing or pray in front of the congregation. Yes, no?


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## Grace Alone (Oct 3, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> Okay, so we are on the same sheet!?!? - women CAN do a great deal but cannot preach, which is an act rightly to those entrusted with ecclesiastical authority?
> 
> If the church gathers for Greek lessons, a woman can teach. A woman can be employed as a seminary professor and teach many of the topics. A woman can give her testimony, a report ofher work overseas, or sing or pray in front of the congregation. Yes, no?



I don't think a woman can give a testimony or a missions report during the worship service. Things like that should be done as part of a fellowship activity or Sunday School or anything besides the worship service.

*My name is Janis and my husband approved this message.


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