# Free Will Song



## Matthew1034

Blatant will worship. This college is located in my state and has a large student population relative to the other Christian colleges in FL.

Here are some fun facts to consider about the school as you watch:

Each gender must use segregated stairways, elevators and in some cases, sidewalks.
If you eat a banana at lunch you have to cut it in pieces
If you leave the campus you have to sign out and state where you're going (leaving the campus is a privilege)
10 pm curfew every day
You may not go to a public library.
No more than twenty students may meet off-campus without specific permission.
You may recieve demerits for having your radio tuned to a "non-passing" radio station, even if you have not touched the dial since you were home.
Possession of an electric guitar or amplifier is forbidden
Men may not wear a necklace.
Women must wear a skirt or dress at all times. Jean skirts are allowed at dating outings only. Long shorts (i.e., "gauchos" or "culottes") which reach the knee are permitted for athletic activity.
In the dorm, you may not have: television, personal stereo (walkman), microwave, fans, skillets, hot plate, coffee pot, electric blanket, extra furniture, or a living pet

Not sure if this is a statement made by an alumni or from a student handbook from the 90's but:
While attending PCC, the number one measurement of your spiritual condition will be how well you obey the rules, and secondly, how much you turn in others who don't obey the rules.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrczyFvkv8Q]YouTube - Free Will Song[/ame]


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## Zenas

My friends attended a high school that was a feeder school for PCC. They affectionately refered to PCC as "Pensacola Concentration Camp. While attending said high school, one friend was told by a teacher that he would be going to Hell because he spoke after he told him not to. Apparently the teachers at the high school hold the keys to Heaven and Hell, who knows what secrets they have unlocked at PCC?

Excellent instruction, huh?


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## LawrenceU

When I read the list I misread No. 9. I read it as 'Men may not wear a necktie.' For a minute I wondered if I had been shifted to another dimension. Sort of the same feeling that I get when I have to go to PCC for various homeschool activities.

I thought the school that I went to was strict. It isn't even the league with PCC.

BTW, the song makes me want to puke: Lyrically, musically, awful.


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## Knoxienne

#2 -  This is a case of the rulemakers having filthier minds than anyone who wants a little more potassium in their diet.

#5 -  I'd get kicked out for that one before anything else.


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## kvanlaan

This one is a PB favourite - it has been posted a few times, but it never ceases to shock and dismay, does it?


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## Zenas

> ...or a living pet.



Does this mean you can keep dead pets?

-----Added 2/20/2009 at 09:52:01 EST-----

#2 is hilarious. I bet they cut all pictures of the Washington monument out of their textbooks too.


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## Matthew1034

Zenas said:


> My friends attended a high school that was a feeder school for PCC. They affectionately refered to PCC as "Pensacola Concentration Camp. While attending said high school, one friend was told by a teacher that he would be going to Hell because he spoke after he told him not to. Apparently the teachers at the high school hold the keys to Heaven and Hell, who knows what secrets they have unlocked at PCC?
> 
> Excellent instruction, huh?



There may be no more accurate, modern parallel to the Pharisees.



LawrenceU said:


> When I read the list I misread No. 9. I read it as 'Men may not wear a necktie.' For a minute I wondered if I had been shifted to another dimension. Sort of the same feeling that I get when I have to go to PCC for various homeschool activities.
> 
> I thought the school that I went to was strict. It isn't even the league with PCC.
> 
> *BTW, the song makes me want to puke*: Lyrically, musically, awful.



My stomach turned when I heard it, too.. after the comedy wore off and I realized these people worship their own righteousness... Goats....



Knoxienne said:


> #2 -  This is a case of the rulemakers having dirtier minds than anyone who wants a little more potassium in their diet.
> 
> #5 -  I'd get kicked out for that one before anything else.



I'd be tossed out with you, brother

-----Added 2/20/2009 at 10:05:37 EST-----



kvanlaan said:


> This one is a PB favourite - it has been posted a few times, but it never ceases to shock and dismay, does it?



I searched "free will song" but no results came up so I posted it just for the record 



Zenas said:


> ...or a living pet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does this mean you can keep dead pets?
> 
> -----Added 2/20/2009 at 09:52:01 EST-----
> 
> #2 is hilarious. *I bet they cut all pictures of the Washington monument out of their textbooks too.*
Click to expand...



Here are some other rules:

Forbidden: Writing or distributing unauthorized literature.
No "Cracking" the communion cups.
Forbidden: Possession or use of tobacco/alcohol/controlled substances (includes glue)
Forbidden: Visiting Pensacola Junior College or the Unversity of West Florida.
Forbidden: Attendance at a movie theater or unapproved concert/event.
Forbidden: Disrespect or "bad attitude."
Forbidden: Automotive repair on campus.
Forbidden: Walking on the grass or landscape
Males and Females are to use separate public beaches and may not go to the popular Pensacola Beach or to the nearby Boardwalk.
Dorms: You may not go bare-foot in the halls or lounge.
Dorms: You may not put up a picture of unmarried people in physical contact unless they are "little kids."

If any of these rules are broken, you get a demerit. 150 demerits results in expulsion. 75, 100, or 125 will get you "campused," which is being grounded for no less than 1 week, not allowed to leave or talk to anyone else on campus.



> They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. They do all their deeds to be seen by others.


 Matthew 23:4,5


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## BJClark

The Student Voice. Pensacola Christian College



> When considering attending Pensacola Christian College, it is important to know that they have rules. Rules. Rules. Rules. They have rules to govern every area of your life. Just like the Bible, only more. Evidently, the Bible did not cover some areas, so the School Administrators have picked up the slack.



This is the college that puts out the A-Beka program as well..

Oh wow, they even have Cheerleaders, however, I personally have no problem w/ the length of their skirts..

https://www.pcci.edu/StudentLife/Athletics/EaglesSports.html


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## Knoxienne

Mortifying our flesh and putting on Christ daily is enough of a challenge as it is without a bunch of ridiculous requirements and "do nots" being put on people. It really is no wonder Jesus was so angry at the Pharissees - God's easy yolk was not holy enough nor good enough for them - they insisted on the traditions of their wicked Mishnah (oral traditions) for righteousness. 

This is why it is so, so very important for Christians to familiarize themselves with the Word so thoroughly (and parents to diligently teach their children) so that when people are faced with legalism like this they can go to God's Word and say 
"Thus saith the Lord!"


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## BJClark

I would not be kicked out of this school...because I would NOT GO to this school...


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## nicnap

That song was ungodly filth...a song that was written to push an agenda, not encourage true study of the Bible or even worship.


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## kevin.carroll

I used to sing that stupid song. I also have relatives who have gone to PCC. Feel free to ban me from the Board. Tertiary separation ya know. It's a fundamentalist thing.


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## turmeric

kevin.carroll said:


> I used to sing that stupid song. I also have relatives who have gone to PCC. Feel free to ban me from the Board. Tertiary separation ya know. It's a fundamentalist thing.


 
"...but you are washed, but you are sanctified...(sic)"

I couldn't finish listening to that young man "sing". Evidently the Lord no longer requires to be honored with our "best"! :tongue in cheek:


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## Knoxienne

This is the first time I've ever heard that song.


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## Herald

Word of Life is very similar to PCC. They've loosened up a bit from the time I attended, bu they are still very strict.


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## cih1355

Matthew1034 said:


> Blatant will worship. This college is located in my state and has a large student population relative to the other Christian colleges in FL.
> 
> Here are some fun facts to consider about the school as you watch:
> 
> Each gender must use segregated stairways, elevators and in some cases, sidewalks.
> If you eat a banana at lunch you have to cut it in pieces
> If you leave the campus you have to sign out and state where you're going (leaving the campus is a privilege)
> 10 pm curfew every day
> You may not go to a public library.
> No more than twenty students may meet off-campus without specific permission.
> You may recieve demerits for having your radio tuned to a "non-passing" radio station, even if you have not touched the dial since you were home.
> Possession of an electric guitar or amplifier is forbidden
> Men may not wear a necklace.
> Women must wear a skirt or dress at all times. Jean skirts are allowed at dating outings only. Long shorts (i.e., "gauchos" or "culottes") which reach the knee are permitted for athletic activity.
> In the dorm, you may not have: television, personal stereo (walkman), microwave, fans, skillets, hot plate, coffee pot, electric blanket, extra furniture, or a living pet
> 
> Not sure if this is a statement made by an alumni or from a student handbook from the 90's but:
> While attending PCC, the number one measurement of your spiritual condition will be how well you obey the rules, and secondly, how much you turn in others who don't obey the rules.
> 
> YouTube - Free Will Song



What is the rationale for rule #1? Do college students struggle with lust so much that the college needs segregated stairways, elevators and in some cases, sidewalks? 

Why do they have to cut a banana in pieces before eating it? Are they going to take too big of a bite if they don't?

Why are they not permitted to go to a public library? Is it wrong to read a non-Christian book?


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## Kim G

cih1355 said:


> What is the rationale for rule #1? Do college students struggle with lust so much that the college needs segregated stairways, elevators and in some cases, sidewalks?
> 
> Why do they have to cut a banana in pieces before eating it? Are they going to take too big of a bite if they don't?
> 
> Why are they not permitted to go to a public library? Is it wrong to read a non-Christian book?



Many fundamentalists seem to see sexual pitfalls in EVERYTHING. They imagine that college kids are raging with hormones and might take advantage of every empty stairwell or elevator if given the opportunity.

The banana one is really sad. It's because a banana sort of looks like that "certain part" of the male anatomy. You don't want to be seen with your mouth around a banana.

Public libraries contain sexually explicit material.

Someone I know who used to go to PCC said that one administrator explained the rule about men wearing ties saying, "If a man does not have his tie on in class, it is as provocative to women as if the man had his pants down."

The men in charge of institutions like this who make these kinds of rules must be perverts.


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## Theognome

Knoxienne said:


> #2 -  This is a case of the rulemakers having filthier minds than anyone who wants a little more potassium in their diet.
> 
> #5 -  I'd get kicked out for that one before anything else.




If you couldn't go to the library anymore, they'd probably shut the place down due to lack of interest. 

Theognome


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## Prufrock

There's just a big disconnect for me between this song (and the comments at the end about how it's one of the greatest truths of scripture), and the school as a whole...

1.) God wants your love _freely_; no constraints, no command...

and

2.) Follow these arbitrary "rules of God" to the letter or you get kicked out. In fact, be sure to turn in your friends who don't follow these rules. We'd hate to extend the grace and love that might lure anyone to choose this way.

I don't get it. Something they have set up there doesn't quite make sense. Two already strange teachings, but which also seem completely contradictory.


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## MrMerlin777

Have seen this before. 

Disgusting!


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## Ex Nihilo

Apparently is not okay for a woman to be in an elevator with a man, but it is totally okay for her to speak at a large worship gathering. . . 

Funny how made-up rules do not just supplement God's rules; they actually replace them.


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## Knoxienne

Ex Nihilo said:


> Apparently is not okay for a woman to be in an elevator with a man, but it is totally okay for her to speak at a large worship gathering. . .
> 
> Funny how made-up rules do not just supplement God's rules; they actually replace them.


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## ServantofGod

Some of my friends went there for a semester. They are brother and sister. They kept getting demerits for talking to each other without a chaperone. So they left. The End.


In regards to the song: just sickening. Absolutely sickening. That teaching is cursed, and comes straight from Satan's mouth.


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## a mere housewife

Ex Nihilo said:


> Apparently is not okay for a woman to be in an elevator with a man, but it is totally okay for her to speak at a large worship gathering. . .
> 
> Funny how made-up rules do not just supplement God's rules; they actually replace them.



I'm out of thanks, but yes, exactly.

I went to PCC for one semester, to another school for two. I had more freedom at PCC than I had had growing up, honestly, though I had better doctrine at home: so it wasn't for me like being in prison in the way that many might think (though hardly an hour of my life goes by now that I do not have repeat to myself several times what Ruben tells me, that the Holy Spirit is_ not_ the accuser of the Brethren). But one wasn't allowed to attend a real church, there was no pastoral oversight at their huge campus church, and the sort of doctrine one receives there is such that the President's wife can state that God put Romans 9 in the Bible 'to see if we would really believe it.' (Evidently God is not to be believed even in the KJV -- they give the better textual arguments a very bad name with their ignorant ones). Fortunately my health was terrible and I never made it through more than a few classes at either of these colleges (the other was even worse). I didn't think it affected me much at the time; but I realize now that had all those many chapel/Sunday messages not been about how 'if you sit in this chair, your son will sit one chair further down' I might have made it through the next three years without believing that I was beyond the pale of God's grace because of struggles remaining sin.

The rules are stricter than represented. I had a friend almost expelled for laughing across a patio at the same time as another boy after dark when they were supposed to be in separate areas: laughing is a form of communication. When I was there they had students whose official function was to slap other students with demerits. All this while, as Evie says, they neglected the whole structure of justice, mercy, modesty, honesty, etc. They say we have to erect these barriers around the law: but they don't understand that Christ is the end of the law, and that summation of the law is love. All of those rules are just parameters slapped over a void.


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## Ex Nihilo

a mere housewife said:


> But one wasn't allowed to attend a real church, there was no pastoral oversight at their huge campus church, and the sort of doctrine one receives there is such that the President's wife can state that God put Romans 9 in the Bible 'to see if we would really believe it.'



Really? You couldn't go to an off-campus church? So is the service in the video an actual Sunday morning service? 

And she really meant that we're not supposed to believe Romans 9? Insanity.


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## Kim G

Ex Nihilo said:


> Really? You couldn't go to an off-campus church? So is the service in the video an actual Sunday morning service?



This is pretty normal for most fundy churches. Bob Jones University was the same way, except they didn't consider Sunday morning meetings to be a church (no Lord's Supper or baptism, but they still took an offering for the school).


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## Ex Nihilo

Kim G said:


> Ex Nihilo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Really? You couldn't go to an off-campus church? So is the service in the video an actual Sunday morning service?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is pretty normal for most fundy churches. Bob Jones University was the same way, except they didn't consider Sunday morning meetings to be a church (no Lord's Supper or baptism, but they still took an offering for the school).
Click to expand...


So were you then left not attending any church except a service that they admitted was not a church? Four years without sacraments?


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## DMcFadden

kevin.carroll said:


> I used to sing that stupid song. I also have relatives who have gone to PCC. Feel free to ban me from the Board. Tertiary separation ya know. It's a fundamentalist thing.



As a mod, I will take your request under advisement. BTW, we not only practice "tertiary" separation on the PB, we also go all out for quaternary and quinary too. 

Running your 884 posts through both an internet filter for inappropriate content AND heretical words and taking into account your freewill admission that you actually "used to sing . . . that song," I am sorry to inform you that . . .


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## Kim G

Ex Nihilo said:


> Kim G said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is pretty normal for most fundy churches. Bob Jones University was the same way, except they didn't consider Sunday morning meetings to be a church (no Lord's Supper or baptism, but they still took an offering for the school).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So were you then left not attending any church except a service that they admitted was not a church? Four years without sacraments?
Click to expand...


A few of the churches in the area actually held communion in their evening services so that BJU students could partake. I went to one of those churches. But yes, many students went four years without sacraments, having a shepherd (since there was no pastor), etc.


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## Knoxienne

I remember hearing one woman speak of attending one of these Fundamentalist colleges. She had lied to the school about the reason she needed to leave campus; but the interesting (and sad) thing about it was that later, she wasn't disciplined for lying and violating the ninth commandment, but for wearing pants while being away.


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## CharlieJ

I'm slightly disturbed at this thread. Posting the song for consideration is certainly appropriate, but posting it with a list of "ridiculous" rules makes it seem like the OP just wanted to slap the school in the face. 

I went to BJU, the school PCC is modeled after. I think both schools have excessive rules. However, neither school would argue that all their rules are straight from the Bible, or that your church and home should operate by them. Is it really ridiculous and sinful to have a curfew? Are they religious wackos because they prohibit appliances which could potentially cause fire?

At what point do those of us on the outside become legalists for nitpicking every one of their rules? At what point during our superior laughter have we become the self-righteous ones? Really, as the video graphically portrays, their list of rules is one of the least of their problems.


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## Prufrock

Thank you for the reminder to charity, Charlie.


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## Ex Nihilo

CharlieJ said:


> I went to BJU, the school PCC is modeled after. I think both schools have excessive rules. However, neither school would argue that all their rules are straight from the Bible, or that your church and home should operate by them. *Is it really ridiculous and sinful to have a curfew? Are they religious wackos because they prohibit appliances which could potentially cause fire?*



It is difficult to draw the line between reasonable rules that create a more wholesome environment and rules that are intended to create righteousness. My Baptist college regulated opposite-sex visits in dorms, banned alcohol on campus, and prohibited using the internet to look up inappropriate materials, and I thought all of that was reasonable.


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## Knoxienne

Ex Nihilo said:


> CharlieJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> I went to BJU, the school PCC is modeled after. I think both schools have excessive rules. However, neither school would argue that all their rules are straight from the Bible, or that your church and home should operate by them. *Is it really ridiculous and sinful to have a curfew? Are they religious wackos because they prohibit appliances which could potentially cause fire?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is difficult to draw the line between reasonable rules that create a more wholesome environment and rules that are intended to create righteousness. My Baptist college regulated opposite-sex visits in dorms, banned alcohol on campus, and prohibited using the internet to look up inappropriate materials, and I thought all of that was reasonable.
Click to expand...


I agree. (Out of Thank Yous again) Many rules are reasonable and necessary. Others are just ridiculous.


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## a mere housewife

CharlieJ said:


> I'm slightly disturbed at this thread. Posting the song for consideration is certainly appropriate, but posting it with a list of "ridiculous" rules makes it seem like the OP just wanted to slap the school in the face.
> 
> I went to BJU, the school PCC is modeled after. I think both schools have excessive rules. However, neither school would argue that all their rules are straight from the Bible, or that your church and home should operate by them. Is it really ridiculous and sinful to have a curfew? Are they religious wackos because they prohibit appliances which could potentially cause fire?
> 
> At what point do those of us on the outside become legalists for nitpicking every one of their rules? At what point during our superior laughter have we become the self-righteous ones? Really, as the video graphically portrays, their list of rules is one of the least of their problems.



These are good points; and you are right about self righteousness and charity. 

I think the purpose though served by these threads is not simply an uncharitable or self righteous one. For instance, PCC does give an impression that their rules are righteous: they do teach students that they should be following them in the home, and we had to live by them in our home (it's in the contract) when my dad sold their books to homeschoolers, though we lived states away. This is something that ought to be opposed. I agree that the 'rules' are only a symptom of the problem; but they are a symptom, and a rather ridiculous one, and sometimes laughter is an appropriate response to the ridiculous? The terribly unfunny part is that these places are training ministers.


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## Kim G

Knoxienne said:


> Many rules are reasonable and necessary. Others are just ridiculous.



I would go even further and say that many rules are necessary, many are reasonable, many are ridiculous, *but some are sinful*. Rules that promote backstabbing and gossip (turning people in without being able to talk to the person first), rules that keep you from being a part of a local assembly of believers, and rules that promote law over grace, etc. are sinful rules that ought to be warned against.


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## a mere housewife

Kim G said:


> Knoxienne said:
> 
> 
> 
> Many rules are reasonable and necessary. Others are just ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would go even further and say that many rules are necessary, many are reasonable, many are ridiculous, *but some are sinful*. Rules that promote backstabbing and gossip (turning people in without being able to talk to the person first), rules that keep you from being a part of a local assembly of believers, and rules that promote law over grace, etc. are sinful rules that ought to be warned against.
Click to expand...


Yes.


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## Knoxienne

Kim G said:


> Knoxienne said:
> 
> 
> 
> Many rules are reasonable and necessary. Others are just ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would go even further and say that many rules are necessary, many are reasonable, many are ridiculous, *but some are sinful*. Rules that promote backstabbing and gossip (turning people in without being able to talk to the person first), rules that keep you from being a part of a local assembly of believers, and rules that promote law over grace, etc. are sinful rules that ought to be warned against.
Click to expand...


Amen.


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## Marrow Man

Ex Nihilo said:


> Apparently is not okay for a woman to be in an elevator with a man, but it is totally okay for her to speak at a large worship gathering. . .
> 
> Funny how made-up rules do not just supplement God's rules; they actually replace them.



Absolutely! I thought exactly the same thing. She was teaching doctrine during a chapel service.

I saw this video a couple of years ago. As I watched it again, I couldn't help but be reminded of this song:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENciJ2ZOQCM]YouTube - Ken Barber - Jack Daniels Met John 3:16[/ame]


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## ManleyBeasley

I can't believe this song. I am dumbfounded.


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## ColdSilverMoon

Ex Nihilo said:


> And she really meant that we're not supposed to believe Romans 9? Insanity.



No big surprise, really. They obviously don't understand Romans 2, 3, or 14 either.

-----Added 2/20/2009 at 02:38:30 EST-----

And I have a question, in all seriousness: are students at PCC and BJU (and similar institutions) forbidden from reading certain passages in the Bible? I'm thinking specifically of the Song of Solomon, Habakkuk, Proverbs 5-7, and numerous passages in the Pentateuch dealing frankly with sexuality...


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## David Heesen

*Whippoorwill Song*

This "Free Will Song" was written by Al Smith (of Singspiration fame) and is known as the "Whippoorwill Song." I don't know if that's the actual title, but of course he would never have named it "Free Will Song."


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## Knoxienne

ColdSilverMoon said:


> Ex Nihilo said:
> 
> 
> 
> And she really meant that we're not supposed to believe Romans 9? Insanity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No big surprise, really. They obviously don't understand Romans 2, 3, or 14 either.
> 
> -----Added 2/20/2009 at 02:38:30 EST-----
> 
> And I have a question, in all seriousness: are students at PCC and BJU (and similar institutions) forbidden from reading certain passages in the Bible? I'm thinking specifically of the Song of Solomon, Habakkuk, Proverbs 5-7, and numerous passages in the Pentateuch dealing frankly with sexuality...
Click to expand...


It's the same in the Amish community. I read a Amish (now English) woman's autobiography and she said the elders also discourage people from reading "too much" of the Bible and studying theology "too much" even if that person's an elder.


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## Richard King

Owwwwww my ears MY EARS!


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## a mere housewife

I've never heard anyone discourage the Bible from being read at PCC, BJ, or the other college I attended. 

Wow, Al Smith. My grandfather sold hymnals for him.


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## Kim G

a mere housewife said:


> I've never heard anyone discourage the Bible from being read at PCC, BJ, or the other college I attended.



That's true. We were always encouraged to read the Bible. Everyone has their inconsistencies, even universities.


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## dbroyles

In that song, Jack Daniels meeting John 3:16 reminds me of the Oliver B. Greene booklet published decades ago against the consumption of alcohol. The cover depicted an anthropomorphic, human-sized bottle of booze standing triumphantly over a drunk man, the bottle exclaiming, "I did that!" It was an ugly drawing, but it beautifully illustrated modern day gnosticism.


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## Augusta

The saddest thing to me is that this kind of legalistic behavior puts true Christian piety in a bad light. We are free from the curse of the law but that doesn't mean we don't keep it. If you do not truly love the law because Christ does and because it is a reflection of his holiness, and if that is not what causes you to strive to keep it, then you are not acting from faith.

If you keep the law as a list to check off and not because it is written on your heart and you therefore love it, then you are a pharisee.

You can have two people one from this school who is following all these rules, and a 17th century Puritan who has the law written on their hearts doing the same things, but one is a Pharisee and one is a Christian. It is not the rules per se, but the motivation behind keeping them.


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## Matthew1034

*Note: I've adjusted the language of this post to make my position clearer. That which I have added or changed either has <ADDED> tags or is set in bold. I do not believe every student there, or every teacher, is guilty of what I am saying. And I did not post this video in the OP or this response to Charlie to, in any way, mock PCC or single them out. My position is that I reject the type of christianity that they teach, and any christianity that makes obedience to man-made laws and regulations the basis of spiritual growth or salvation. And please read Luther's quote knowing it has played a large part in my understanding of how I ought to approach exposing error.

Also, as a confession, I originally posted the song and rules for the sake of humor (not out of self-righteous superiority, but to put light on the connection between their theology and practice), but, upon reading more into the rules and reading some of the posted replies, that connection became clearer and overnight it has completely changed my view of Arminian theology and Phariseeism and I was led to this response. And I am sorry, out of a human's pitiful heart redeemed by God's unfailing grace and filled with His Love, to any who have taken my words personally; it is not, nor was, my intention to single anyone out, let alone the institution, to bring on an ungodly shame or guilt. In the same way, I do expect everyone to read my words as I intended them, in the context of the faith and practice of the institution, institutions like them, and those who willingly adhere to their Christless commands.*



CharlieJ said:


> I'm slightly disturbed at this thread. Posting the song for consideration is certainly appropriate, but posting it with a list of "ridiculous" rules makes it seem like the OP just wanted to slap the school in the face.
> 
> I went to BJU, the school PCC is modeled after. I think both schools have excessive rules. However, neither school would argue that all their rules are straight from the Bible, or that your church and home should operate by them. Is it really ridiculous and sinful to have a curfew? Are they religious wackos because they prohibit appliances which could potentially cause fire?
> 
> At what point do those of us on the outside become legalists for nitpicking every one of their rules? At what point during our superior laughter have we become the self-righteous ones? Really, as the video graphically portrays, their list of rules is one of the least of their problems.



The point of posting the rules along with the video was to bring their false teaching to light; not only their doctrine, but their practice. Their legalism IS as deceptive and damning as their theology, its not the "least of their problems." The fruit on their trees are rotten. *If the christianity they teach is all their students know about God, salvation, and Christian living, then they are going into the ministry as false shepherds*. <added>I do not believe that every person there believes these things and is ignorant of Christian liberty and the Gospel of grace, but I do believe those who believe (ie trust, "pisteuo") that living by their standards is a means of spiritual growth, or even salvation (Arminianism), have a heart of stone on which are engraved man's laws as well as God's. These are those who are deceived and being deceived. This is not judging men's hearts;_ if obedience to the law is the measure of spiritual growth, then it is also what they are trusting in for salvation. _ This is what Galatians 32,3,15, 25, 27) and 49,21,31) and Colossians 2:20-23 are about. The law does not give life, faith does; God's laws or man's laws CANNOT produce spiritual growth for it is what condemns a man before God. (Romans 3:19,20 Hebrews 7:19) This is the Gospel, we are saved from the ministration of death and its demands AND we are brought into a life that loves, follows, and approaches God FROM FAITH TO FAITH. God not only saves us from hell, but from corruption; he not only brings us out of bondage to sin, but leads us in that liberty of the Spirit. I don't want to preach about this, and shouldn't have to. Faith is the mechanism of the Christian life; this is the aroma of Christ to those around us. *These who are trying to become righteous, either in Christian maturity or salvation, by following the law and man-made laws should not be considered Christians just because they profess Christ.*</added>



> If I profess with the loudest voice and clearest exposition every portion of the Word of God except precisely that little point which the world and the devil are at that moment attacking, I am not confessing Christ, however boldly I may be professing Him. Where the battle rages there the loyalty of the soldier is proved; and to be steady on all the battle front besides, is mere flight and disgrace if he flinches at that point.
> 
> (Luther's Works. Weimar Edition. Briefwechsel [Correspondence], vol. 3, pp. 81f.)



This is so horrifying, in the saddest sense of the word, to a Christian who knows the grace of God and how sincerely God desires justice and truthfulness in the inmost parts. This is not to be self-righteous or have a sense of superiority. Sure someone can watch the video, read the rules, and just find it funny and thats that, or someone can watch it and read the rules and say "i'm glad i'm not like that.." _or we can watch it and read the rules and say *"that's not Christianity."*_ 

They *(those who create and enforce their man-made laws, NOT every student or person there)* measure a person's spiritual growth according to how well they *(every student)* obey their man-made laws. So, in the eyes of the school, at the end of a 4-year stay, the person who has 0 demerits is more righteous and spiritually mature than someone with 100, when in reality the person with 0 demerits could be a white-washed tomb and the person with 100 could be a believer going through sanctification.

They, *the rules and those who enforce them,* bind men's consciences and bring these people, if they are Christians, out from the yoke of Christ and put them in bondage to the law again. This is evil and cannot be called good even if it appears to be good. This kind of christianity is thoroughly antichrist and ought to be rejected completely. Why should we defend someone or a group of people *(those who create and enforce their man-made laws, NOT every student)* who bring shame on the name of our Savior?

Its interesting to me how everytime I point out false teaching in the church on this board, someone thinks its rooted in self-righteousness. I just hate evil and the appearance of evil and the shame it brings to Christ when it is professing Christians doing the evil. I don't take pleasure in exposing error, for the error itself breaks my heart. It doesn't make me proud that I'm right, it makes me sorrowful that they're wrong because they don't know the grace and love of God and are working as hard as they possibly can to get it. These are holy affections and the Holy Spirit Himself reveals these things to us. Whatever makes manifest is light.

The leaders *(those who create and enfore their man-made laws, NOT every student)* of groups like these are not confused; they have rejected the Gospel. Its not a game where we are supposed to try to make sure nobody in modern christianity is offended, thus trying to balance everyone *(who professes Christ)* and their heretical beliefs. The Arminian theology is not their biggest problem, their Phariseeism is because that's what they *(those who create and enforce their man-made laws, NOT every student)* are trusting in to make them righteous.

Those who know the truth of the Gospel and reject it end up like these people *(those who create and enforce man-made laws and make them the basis of Christian growth and/or salvation, NOT every student). They (those who create and enforce their man-made laws, NOT every student) end up worse than before they knew the truth, like Peter says. (While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption) They die because they have no knowledge or understanding; they (every student)are being led astray by false teachers (those who create and enforce their man-made laws, NOT every student)! There really is a correlation in that those who reject the teachings of the grace of God in the Gospel end up confused and worse than when they started.

The post below is a good example; someone who does not accept sovereign election after awhile ends up saying that election is man electing God to be his savior, and that the reformed doctrine of election is a system of works. That's utterly blasphemous. And herein lies the problem: will the Holy Spirit lead a man to believe that election is a work of man and that the sovereign election of God is a system of works to get to heaven? Likewise, will the Holy Spirit lead an entire Christian college (its leaders and visionaries, those who create and enforce their man-made laws) to make up a bunch of man-made rules and make obedience to them the basis and measure of Christian growth? That's NOT Christianity.

http://www.puritanboard.com/f15/arminians-elect-god-43474/

Its not just an accident or an isolated occurance at PCC that hardcore Arminians are Pharisees (those who create and enforce their man-made law, NOT every student).

And instead of taking a stand against those who teach a legalistic gospel or a works-based gospel, we play that game where we try to balance everyone's beliefs just because they profess Christ. After all, "we aren't supposed to judge anyone or else we'll be judged!" The JWs profess Christ but their teaching is false and we reject them. So why don't we reject those Pharisaical groups and churches that reject the Gospel? Just because they say Christ is their Savior? Its complete garbage, from their faith to their practice its false and deceptive. Paul called his Phariseeism DUNG. But we may as well be one of them if we are going to tolerate their teaching; because in that tolerance we make no distinction to the outside world that we are different.

Again, read Luther's words and consider the time in which he spoke them and how they ought to be relevant now, in a day when the Gospel is being compromised for the sake of a Christian unity that is false.




If I profess with the loudest voice and clearest exposition every portion of the Word of God except precisely that little point which the world and the devil are at that moment attacking, I am not confessing Christ, however boldly I may be professing Him. Where the battle rages there the loyalty of the soldier is proved; and to be steady on all the battle front besides, is mere flight and disgrace if he flinches at that point.

(Luther's Works. Weimar Edition. Briefwechsel [Correspondence], vol. 3, pp. 81f.)

Click to expand...

*


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## LadyFlynt

Seen the video before and I only had to read #1 and "FL" to know which school you were referring to. Yep, grew up fundy.


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## Craig

I don't know what was worse...the song, or the praise of the will worship afterward.

I feel dirty, I think I'm going to go eat a banana.


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## LadyFlynt

Craig said:


> I don't know what was worse...the song, or the praise of the will worship afterward.
> 
> I feel dirty, I think I'm going to go eat a banana.



Just cut it up first! Don't want to give anyone worldly ideas!

I have patterns to kulottes...they are fun if you make them out of funky fabric  I know some teens that love them.


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## kalawine

Marrow Man said:


> Ex Nihilo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently is not okay for a woman to be in an elevator with a man, but it is totally okay for her to speak at a large worship gathering. . .
> 
> Funny how made-up rules do not just supplement God's rules; they actually replace them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely! I thought exactly the same thing. She was teaching doctrine during a chapel service.
> 
> I saw this video a couple of years ago. As I watched it again, I couldn't help but be reminded of this song:
> 
> [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENciJ2ZOQCM]YouTube - Ken Barber - Jack Daniels Met John 3:16[/ame]
Click to expand...


So... God saved him from Jack Daniels. Did he save hime from hell also?


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## OPC'n

wow! that list was used by the church I was raised in!!!! Whoa!!! Bad memories!!!!! And that song!!


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## CharlieJ

Matthew1034 said:


> They, the rules and those who enfore them, bind men's consciences and bring these people, if they are Christians, out from the yoke of Christ and put them in bondage to the law again. This is evil and cannot be called good even if it appears to be good. This kind of christianity is thoroughly antichrist and ought to be rejected completely. Why should we defend someone or a group of people who bring shame on the name of our Savior?



This is a lie, Matthew. No true believer in Christ is "antichrist." You don't know who is saved and who isn't. As messed up as their theology is, at the end of the day the people at PCC (supposedly) put their trust in Christ. They believe in salvation by faith in Christ. I grew up in a church like that among people like that. They don't need the kind of hate speech that you're putting out on the internet. 



Matthew1034 said:


> The leaders of groups like these are not confused; they have rejected the Gospel.



You don't know that. These people do not deny any cardinal Christian doctrine. The most confused Arminian can be saved. Why not pray for these people, Matthew? You may share an eternity with many of them. God will not let all their stupid ideas keep them from heaven. Many of them are His children, and He will persevere them in spite of their weakness, frailty, and failings. You crossed a line when you passed judgment on their standing in grace. You need to repent of your sin and let God change your heart.


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## kvanlaan

Pray for them, sure. They are in error, but profess Christ, so OK. BUT we must be uncompromising and not waffle on how serious an error this is - listen to some Paul Washer for more on this sort of thing. We too often glaze over heresy in the church for the sake of something or other and then are shocked and surprised when "Americanity" is what the bulk of 'Christians' worship. 

I would go to them with the Gospel, not with a repair kit for split hairs - they are missing the point entirely.


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## py3ak

[Moderator]*Obviously this is an emotional topic: many people have scars; many people have loved ones who seem evidently to have the fruit of the Spirit and yet are in these circles. So everybody, please consider the complexity of the situation and try to speak with as much gentleness and moderation towards people as can be had with the thorough rejection of error, considering ourselves, lest we also be tempted.*[/Moderator]


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## Marrow Man

kalawine said:


> So... God saved him from Jack Daniels. Did he save hime from hell also?



I sincerely hope so.

I was flipping through the channels one day when we lived in Greenville, SC, and I saw this song being sung on a local cable channel. The sad thing is that it (and the one in the OP) almost sounds like a parody it's so bad.

I'm sure I sang some pretty dumb stuff in my early Christian days, though. I should probably be dropping those stones about now...


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## Marno

Horrible, absolutely horrible.


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## calgal

Interesting and really really sad for the students. The words and the behaviors are so inconsistent (and the song is awful). Is the school accredited or is the career path...limited if you will. 

I hate to compare these folks to the LDS but there are some similarities. Both groups idolize laws but the LDS openly worship false gods.  BYU has similar rules but do allow women to wear pants (note that bleachers + skirts = bad idea) and show edited movies on campus. Note the BYU sports teams do dress for the sport (there is a magic garment exemption for sporting events....) BYU Cheer BYU also has the same sort of "snitchin'" laws and BYU students learn what they need to hide from roommates, college officials and their bishops very early on. Note I have several acquaintances who went to school at "the Y" who are raging alcoholics: they never learned that you can drink responsibly.


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## a mere housewife

Gail PCC at least isn't accredited: neither was the other college I attended. yes you are right that it's very damaging for the students. In some ways it's just as tragic that these places are training parents, husbands, and wives as that they are training pastors.

Charlie your words came back to me this morning, thinking of my own tendency to doubt the promises of God. I do think it's a pretty blatant form of error to make a statement about Scripture that God is basically not to be believed, testing our 'gullibility', when he speaks of those predestined to destruction; but it's not really any less damaging to cringe in your heart from believing the promises of electing love. Thanks again.


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## calgal

a mere housewife said:


> Gail PCC at least isn't accredited: neither was the other college I attended. yes you are right that it's very damaging for the students. In some ways it's just as tragic that these places are training parents, husbands, and wives as that they are training pastors.
> 
> Charlie your words came back to me this morning, thinking of my own tendency to doubt the promises of God. I do think it's a pretty blatant form of error to make a statement about Scripture that God is basically not to be believed, testing our 'gullibility', when he speaks of those predestined to destruction; but it's not really any less damaging to cringe in your heart from believing the promises of electing love. Thanks again.



Have these folks always come from a place of fear? One thing I love about the Reformed Faith is the lack of fear (the if I break this (man made) rule then God will be mad at me and I will be left behind kind of fear) and the acknowledgement we are all sinners but for the Grace of God.


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## a mere housewife

Gail, I think that shaping our responses by the law rather than grace is always coming from 'a place of fear' -- but yes I think this is something that has had meaning drop out over generations and become purely about fear. For instance in a certain generation a response against 'beards' may have had some meaning (I'm not saying it was a right response, but that at least it was rooted in a cultural reality): but it becomes a standard of holiness when the parents pass on to the children along with the rest of the moral law, while the only thing that gave it any meaning drops out of the culture: in the absence of meaning either from Scripture or from the culture, all these laws are enshrined and kept merely out of a fear that if we grow beards we are letting worldliness rush in like a flood (If the father sits in this chair, the child will sit one chair closer to the world, etc). Of course, the laws are all originally a response to where the world is at the moment to begin with, so worldliness has rushed in like a flood from the git go: it's not 'unworldly' to determine where to 'sit' by the position of the world rather than standing on the word of God and calling the culture to change it's position.


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## Matthew1034

CharlieJ said:


> Matthew1034 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They, the rules and those who enfore them, bind men's consciences and bring these people, if they are Christians, out from the yoke of Christ and put them in bondage to the law again. This is evil and cannot be called good even if it appears to be good. This kind of christianity is thoroughly antichrist and ought to be rejected completely. Why should we defend someone or a group of people who bring shame on the name of our Savior?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a lie, Matthew. No true believer in Christ is "antichrist." You don't know who is saved and who isn't. As messed up as their theology is, at the end of the day the people at PCC (supposedly) put their trust in Christ. They believe in salvation by faith in Christ. I grew up in a church like that among people like that. They don't need the kind of hate speech that you're putting out on the internet.
> 
> 
> 
> Matthew1034 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The leaders of groups like these are not confused; they have rejected the Gospel.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You don't know that. These people do not deny any cardinal Christian doctrine. The most confused Arminian can be saved. Why not pray for these people, Matthew? You may share an eternity with many of them. God will not let all their stupid ideas keep them from heaven. Many of them are His children, and He will persevere them in spite of their weakness, frailty, and failings. You crossed a line when you passed judgment on their standing in grace. You need to repent of your sin and let God change your heart.
Click to expand...


Please take care to notice that I did not call the believer an antichrist, but used it to describe the christianity that the institution and institutions like it follow. Please read the Luther quote I added to this post you quoted, and reconsider if we should assume they are Christians just because they profess Christ. Also, read the <ADDED> section in the same post; I explained why those who are trusting in the law for spiritual growth are also trusting in the law for salvation. There is no evidence, apart from their mouths, that PCC (and institutions like them; not every single person there but those who create and enforce their man-made laws) proclaims faith in Christ alone saves. In light of their works, their words are nullified. If they believed in salvation by faith alone, their lives would show it. James teaches that man is justified by faith in the sight of God, but justified by works in the sight of men. God forbid we make the profession of faith evidence to US of regeneration.

The most confused Arminian can be saved, but someone who is trusting in their own righteousness to save them cannot be saved. Jesus did not come to save the righteous, but sinners. There is a large, large chasm between a confused Arminian and a bold one; a Christian struggling with sin and a Pharisee. My judgment of their beliefs is not unrighteous, and the line you've imagined I did not cross, as I did not judge anyone's standing in grace. I have judged their doctrine, their works, those who have fabricated them and those who follow them; but only God can judge the individuals who are guilty of each of those. I have not judged their type of faith and practice in a way I myself would not want to be judged. If a Christian finds fault with my doctrine or my works, I would hope he would tell me so that I could be corrected. But the friend who passively lets another friend perish is no friend at all.

And I praise God for his faithfulness and forbearance despite our constant misunderstandings and misapplications of his Word. I am thankful that he preserves us despite our sins. And I do not love PCC and its people any less because of any of this. Aren't the wounds of a friend faithful? But the kisses of an enemy are deceitful. I am filled with both grief and happiness for the state of the Church and pray for her always; and I hope nobody reading this thinks of me as someone who wishes to see groups of Christians like PCC perish. I think that would be an unrighteous judgment of my heart.

"I cannot and will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand, I can do no other, so help me God. Amen."


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## YXU

Kim G said:


> Knoxienne said:
> 
> 
> 
> Many rules are reasonable and necessary. Others are just ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would go even further and say that many rules are necessary, many are reasonable, many are ridiculous, *but some are sinful*. Rules that promote backstabbing and gossip (turning people in without being able to talk to the person first), rules that keep you from being a part of a local assembly of believers, and rules that promote law over grace, etc. are sinful rules that ought to be warned against.
Click to expand...


If a para-church organization like a school mandates students to worship at school other than go to their church, it is sinful. And it is also doubted whether the para-church organization leaders themselves ever go to church.


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## AThornquist

That song was pretty funky. It's too catchy; I've been singing it all day....

_"Will you say yes, or no?..._


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## Auntie Gramma

I'm a bit sad with this thread.  Not exactly the way to make an entrance to a BB, I know. Sorry. I don't want to come here as to judge.

Let me just share a bit of my background, perhaps? I was raised in the roman catholic tradition -- salvation by works, all that sort of thing. Even as a child, though, I had a deep love for GOD and somehow (the Holy Spirit, perhaps?) knew there was more than the 'good nuns' were teaching us. 

After I began having my children the LORD graciously saved me and I, with great trepidation, entered a Baptist church.  It was very scary to someone who had been reared on catholic doctrine. A sure way to eternal damnation, dontcha know? Any fool knew the only way to Heaven was through Rome!  

I spent almost twenty years in dispensationalism. Know what bothered me right up front about that?? Being told, at least in that first church that I went to, that Christ came to earth to gather the Jewish people, but they rejected Him. The Crucifixion and all it's implications were, in effect, Plan B.  Holy cow! Really? GOD? The Creator of the Universe? He was unable to carry out His plan? WOW! That just didn't make any sense to me. (Again, I'm sure the Holy Spirit was working in my heart, soul, mind, body, every fibre of my being). 

I read my Bible and saw verses that talked about the elect being chosen since before the foundation of the earth (that must be that 'heretic' Calvin that the nuns tried to warn us about, right?). If the Crucifixion is, as my dispensationalist pastor told me, Plan B -- how would you explain 1 Peter 1:18-20? Just reading through the Gospel of John, there are many references to being chosen by GOD. Is it all that easy? Or is it GOD's amazing grace that comes in to play here? I suspect, no, I believe with every fibre of my being that it is indeed the amazing, awesome, wonderful, blessed grace of my GOD that has brought me to whatever knowledge I have of Him. And for this, I kneel before Him in thanksgiving forever.

I did finally make it into a Reformed Church. I love the reformed and covenant theology I have been privileged to hear from the pulpit. Sometimes though? Sometimes I think we all get just a wee bit cocky about it all.  I've heard my elders make jokes about Rome -- especially when they know we have catholics visiting. Not good. Not good at all. It's not like this storehouse of knowledge is something we're responsible for, it's like our salvation, it's all of grace... everything, every moment, every breath.  Thank you LORD, for all you've given to me.

PS... I'm really not an old curmudgeon  -- Honest. Just wanted to give credit to GOD.


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