# Can born-again believer be demon possessed ?



## Mayflower (Dec 22, 2007)

Can born-again believer be demon possessed ?

Iam from a evangelical church, and i heard one speaker saying that a christian can be demon possessed, if he or she hath a occult background.

I believe that a christian can be influence or even bound by demonic forces, but this is (in my view) totally different than being possessed. How can the Holy Spirit whom indwelled in a christian be toghter with a unholy demonic spirit ?

Actually this view that a born again believer can be demon possessed i heard before only by charismatic churches, not evangelicals, but i was wrong.

Any thoughts ?


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## Reformed Covenanter (Dec 22, 2007)

No, the Bible says "He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world" (1 John 4:4).


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## Poimen (Dec 22, 2007)

Mark 3:25 "And if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand."

Christ came to cast out the demons and destroy their world. One cannot have Christ and Satan possess them at the same time. Either we walk in the Spirit or we don't. For He has delivered us from the power of darkness (Colossians 1:13)

Additionally the one who is born again cannot even be touched by Satan: "We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him." 1John 5:18


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## BobVigneault (Dec 22, 2007)

No, absolutely and definitely not.


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## Barnpreacher (Dec 22, 2007)

Mayflower said:


> Iam from a evangelical church, and i heard one speaker saying that a christian can be demon possessed, if he or she hath a occult background.



Old things are passed away, behold all things become new for the new creature in Christ!


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## moral necessity (Dec 22, 2007)

My opinion is that I see it as being possible, for a season of time according to God's providence. I think God uses satan as a tool for whatever purposes he intends. If he allowed him a high degree of influence upon Job's emotions and physical body, I don't think a high degree of influence upon one's mind or nerve sensors that control bodily funtions would be that much different. I don't think possession would imply the absence of the Spirit of Christ, however. I say this lightly, because I know this is a touchy subject. I respect those who think otherwise, and perhaps I will to as he continues to renew my mind by his grace.

Blessings in your study!


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## Ravens (Dec 22, 2007)

Here's a sermon I found helpful on the topic by Rev. David Silversides. It doesn't answer every question related to the issue, but its a good start. 

Can a Christian Be Demon Possessed?


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## timmopussycat (Dec 22, 2007)

Mayflower said:


> Can born-again believer be demon possessed ?
> 
> Iam from a evangelical church, and i heard one speaker saying that a christian can be demon possessed, if he or she hath a occult background.
> 
> ...



While a born again believer cannot be demon possessed, he or she certainly can be severly demon oppressed, particularly if untaught and/or inexperienced in spiritual warfare and/or is backsliding. The results can sometimes fool unwise observers into believing that believers can be demon possessed.


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## BobVigneault (Dec 22, 2007)

Charles I appreciate your opinion and it is certainly reasonable. Those who would disagree with you have given a scriptural basis for why they say no. Can you argue from the Bible to support your opinion?

I know from personal experience that a demon will use an unsaved loved one to attack a believer and that doesn't violate scripture. That is as close to the believer Satan can get. The foothold that demons use is fear and superstition.

We must also define what we mean by possession. Possession seems to imply complete control and I think that goes too far. Demonized is the term I prefer but even that needs qualifying.

I am outlining a book on spiritual warfare right now in which I am recording the experiences we've encountered and then offering a balanced and reformed explanation that will not go beyond scripture. I'll let you know how it's progressing.

If you have any questions about something you may have experienced, send me and PM and I'll try and help you work through it. This is a topic that I ever wanted to become an expert on but I must process the things that have happened. We need to avoid what John Frame calls 'reformed deism' where we avoid the pentecostals obsession so entirely that we have nothing to offer those who have been afflicted.


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## panta dokimazete (Dec 22, 2007)

I think Jerusalem Blade's post from an earlier thread may be relevant.


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## BobVigneault (Dec 22, 2007)

Yes JD, thanks for reminding me of Steve's post. Anything Steve writes is worth rereading, this article is particularly helpful.


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## Jerusalem Blade (Dec 22, 2007)

I think it depends on how one defines "possession". Ownership, no. Full control, no. Utter and complete occupation, no.

What is sin? It is rebellion against the law of God. And what is our spiritual status when we sin? Lying, for example, is walking in accord with the spirit who is the father of lies. When we sin, we allow the spirit of wickedness to operate through us. We are not "possessed" (according to the classical definition) but we are infiltrated. We _allow_ this infiltration. A better word might be demonized.

What is rebellion? "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft." (1 Sam 15:23)

What is deception? Those of us who were in charismatic and/or Arminian groups before we became Reformed, were not our minds deceived? And is not deception the work of the father of lies? Our minds were infiltrated -- our thinking was under the control of _lies!_ -- until the truth set us free. Sometimes this liberation is a process, for we are not necessarily set free from all error upon the moment of the new birth. Nor immune from it seizing us afterward.

We are not impervious "air-tight" beings sealed against evil, but are capable of being pervaded through ignorance or the wickedness of sin. We are moral creatures who may let in darkness. What else is willful sin but this? Though ignorant sin may do it too.

But "possessed" in the Gadarene sense? No! Nothing can pluck us out of our Lord's hand. Even our knowingly sinning (which most sin is) will be chastened out of us by the discipline of His love, and nothing will separate us from the love of God in Christ.


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## Amazing Grace (Dec 22, 2007)

Poimen said:


> Mark 3:25 "And if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand."
> 
> Christ came to cast out the demons and destroy their world. One cannot have Christ and Satan possess them at the same time. Either we walk in the Spirit or we don't. For He has delivered us from the power of darkness (Colossians 1:13)
> 
> Additionally the one who is born again cannot even be touched by Satan: "We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him." 1John 5:18



What about Job? He would be an example that shows a disagreement with the aobe understanding of 1 John


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## Poimen (Dec 22, 2007)

Amazing Grace said:


> Poimen said:
> 
> 
> > Mark 3:25 "And if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand."
> ...



A fair question. But if you look at the entire text you see that he is talking about sin, not the flesh. The one who is born again is off limits to Satan, insofar as he is the possession of God and not the "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:2) 

Paul then argues that we are united to Christ: made us alive together, raised us up together, made us sit together etc. Yes Christ had His heal bruised but He was never indwelt with Satan (as the Pharisees claimed); so we too who are in Christ cannot be possessed by Satan, though perhaps (like Job and Christ) we may be harmed (though I would even doubt the latter in this age - at least not without some clear scriptural argument).


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## larryjf (Dec 22, 2007)

Amazing Grace said:


> Poimen said:
> 
> 
> > Mark 3:25 "And if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand."
> ...



1 Jn 5:18 may be better translated...
We know that no one who is born of God continues sinning; but He who was born of God guards him, and the evil one does not fasten himself to him. 

The idea seems to be that since Jesus guards us and dwells within us, the Devil has nothing in us to fasten himself to as he did before our regeneration.


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## Ravens (Dec 22, 2007)

In my opinion this is a very intricate topic, and one that needs to be handled carefully. To be frank and blunt, I think there are two extremes that need to be avoided: 

1) Those who were saved out of a background laden with the occult, or any other regenerate person (regardless of their background) who has had unusual attacks or harassments from demonic entities, can, in my opinion, allow their experiences to puff them up; they can act as if they have the "real insight", a real "gnosis" that others don't have, and that others "simply can't understand". 

2) Those who, in reacting to the excesses of deliverance ministries and forms of the charismatic movement, overreact in their teaching, and make demons and demonic attacks to be things of the past; in my opinion, the common cultural assumptions of the "modern" world, and the richness of the LORD's blessing that have kept America largely free from overt demonic activity, form more of the backbone of their view than does Scripture.

And, at the end of the day, that distinction parallels C.S. Lewis' comment about the two equal and opposite errors of demonology that the human race can fall into, that is, either an undue fascination, or outright (or, in our circles, practical) disbelief.

Mr. Vigneault said:



> We need to avoid what John Frame calls 'reformed deism' where we avoid the pentecostals obsession so entirely that we have *nothing to offer those who have been afflicted*.



I think the above point is absolutely *critical.* I can only say that my heart breaks for those who have known the lashes of the devil, and the fangs of Satan, and the lunacy that he can throw a mind into, going to a church, which is supposed to be a bastion of light, the pillar and ground of truth, and being told to take pills, or that they only have a medical condition.

There have been times in my past, right before I became a Christian, and in the first couple of years after, where I would hear that, and my spirit would just break and wither within me. Because often when a person is being assaulted, they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that something supernatural is going on, and for someone to suggest pills is laughable. 

The church should be the voice to say, "We have known about this all along; these enemies are thousands of years old. They are liars, and they are deceptive. They come only to kill, and steal, and destroy." 

I suppose I don't know how to say it any better. Only, that, in my opinion, as society falls further and further away from the Godspell and the Word of the Lord, you're going to start seeing more and more poor souls who have been raped, pillaged, and driven to lunacy by the Devil and his dark spirits come to the church, and when that happens, I hope and pray that they are met with understanding, and not told they are crazy, or have a serotonin imbalance.

C.S. Lewis, in _The Screwtape Letters_, has a demon staying that their current strategy is to hide themselves. I realize that is just his guess, and he is simply an author. But once again, in the realm of my opinion, that's a fairly adequate diagnosis of the West. No one is ever seduced, swindled, abducted, or raped by criminals broadcasting their intention.

I think postmodernism, and higher criticism, and the denial of Christianity, and the lauding of man's mind, and man's capability, and man's progress, are just one large swindle. Blasphemy after blasphemy is piled upon the God of Scripture, middle finger after middle finger is given to Him by this nation and the West, and, speaking anthropomorphically, He gives us a chance for His goodness to lead us to repentance. He draws us with the cords of a man, and bands of love, to Himself, and shows us that He does not deal with us after our iniquities, or as our sins deserve.

I imagine, once again, in my opinion, if revival does not take hold, after we have allowed homosexuality, and the slaughter of children, and Wicca, and Asatru, and the New Age movement, and all of this blatantly Satanic and neo-pagan garbage to flourish, that parts of our nation may very well be introduced to the real nature of the "new friends" they have been courting. And when that happens, and the masks come off, I am guessing you will have many ripped open souls fleeing covens and kindreds and the darkness with some very odd stories, and I hope they are met with the Grand Story of the Lord of Light and His Cross.

All of that being said, and I've said too much, and what I have said is too fragmented... but here's where I would differ from the charismatics and the deliverance ministry folks.

The "answer", in my opinion, is basically the same as those who hold a more conservative view: Preach the Gospel. Administer the Sacraments. Bring them into the community. Nurture them with the milk of the Word. 

Most of this discussion does rest on the nature and meaning of "possession", and I would agree that no believer can be utterly controlled and indwelt. But I do think they can be attacked, harassed, frightened, and have thoughts and feelings put into their minds and hearts. However, "whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world", and the One who dwells in us is greater than the One who dwells in the world.

And the preaching and teaching of the Word will overthrow the most entrenched kingdom of Satan in any human mind. Literally. It can take minds lost in the lands of lunacy and, like the Gadarene demoniac, clothe them, place them in their "right mind", and sit them down at the feet of Jesus.

And this is where the rubber meets the road. And the church should be able to tell new believers who sorrow over their sins, and are harassed by darkness, and the adversaries, in ways that maybe those who were raised in the covenant community can't understand, that there is "another side to the story", indeed, the Author of the Story, and that Jesus is not just a name on paper, but that when it comes to setting souls free, and rescuing minds from lunacy, and breaking the very back of the strongest devil and banishing it from that person's life with regal authority, that this Jesus, this God, *comes through in spades.*

Please don't throw pills at them.

I know that gets into a larger debate, and I'm not saying that there aren't actual mental illnesses. I think Scripture distinguishes between mental illness and demonic possession (e.g., I think the list in Matthew 4 (without a Bible near me) mentions "lunacy" as something different from those possessed with unclean spirits; Nebuchadnezzar speaks of his "wisdom and understanding" returning to him; and the Gadarene demoniac is restored to his "right mind"); and I don't pretend to know where the line is drawn; but I do believe there are some demonized people that, in some Reformed churches, would be given Prozac as an answer.


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## moral necessity (Dec 22, 2007)

Bob,

Thanks for your reply. I think absolute domination to where no spark of the Spirit exists is impossible. I think if "posession" means that, then demonic possession of a born again person is impossible, even to one just coming out of a lifestyle of such possession and experience of the occult. 

It is in the light of this kind of a believer, one who has come out of a lifestyle in the occult, that I was phrasing my answer. And, the other focus I had in mind was to answer the question in regard to one who is "born again", and not who has progressed far, if at all, in sanctification. With regard to these two qualifiers, I think I personally have to grant the possibility, if not the probability, of backslidings into the former manner of life that they were previously committed to. To me, such entanglements and distortions of bodily function, mental aptitude, and sanity, that probably took place in someone for an extended amount of years in the occult, would be hard if not near impossible to untangle and repair within a few minutes, or even a few months or years, of a person being born again by God (unless of course God desired otherwise). When the Holy Spirit brings his initial spark of life into such a person, I think they are, at that instance, born again as a child of God. Evidence of sanctification may be far off from their sight, and from others. The presence of the Holy Spirit will always remain, and the strongholds that satan still has over the person may exist and influence them for many years, but these strongholds are guaranteed to be overthrown according to God's sovereign schedule.

I think an examination into the life of Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel chapters 1-4 will display a very similar person in a very similar situation. Here is a man who has been a worshipper of false gods and surrounded by diviners and sorcerers and the occult for many years, whose influence he invited and depended upon. He experiences crazy fits of anger and hostility towards his servants in ch.2, as well as towards Daniel, who he had just honored to a high position in his own palace. He honors God and Daniel at the end of ch.2, after the vision is explained. Ch.3 shows him resorting back to his former life of worshipping other gods, after acknowledging that God was the God of gods. He is possessed again with insane requests, as well as rage and malicious anger towards those who do not submit. He shows "furious rage" towards Daniel's friends and mocks God. He becomes nearly mad in a demonic-like fashion when they display trust in God in the fire, and then resorts back to a sane mind and worship of God when He rescues them. Chapter 4 displays the same pattern of resorting to his magicians and astrologers, and later, he becomes pompous and arrogant before God, even after his awaiting chastisement was explained to him. Finally, his reason is restored to him, and he worships God. 

I think Nebuchadnezzar was born again and experienced gradual sanctification and multiple relapses, going in and out of seasons of demonic influence and possession (in the partial sense of the word).

The word "possession", to me, can be used in both a partial and a total sense. If the enemies of Israel had possession of the land of Canaan, I wouldn't conclude that they would be in absolute control over every square inch of the area. Possession can take place in separate areas within the whole, and yet Canaan can still be possessed by Israel. I guess I use the word like this when I think of demonic possession. 

Also, thanks for the willingness to update me with reference to your book progression. I look forward to it. I also wanted to mention a reference that you might be interested in. The work comes in 2 paperback volumes, and is called Demonology, by Richard Gilpin. It is a 1982 reprint by Old Paths Gospel Press of the 1867 publication by James Nisbet & Co., London. You can purchase it through Gospel Mission Books at gospel mission books The guy devoted himself a lot to the study of satan and his ways.

Blessings!


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## Jerusalem Blade (Jan 30, 2008)

Sorry to revive this older thread, but preaching through Ephesians I came across Calvin's view on Eph 4:27, which is very close to what I stated above:



> _Neither give place..._ I know how some expound this. Erasmus, using the word 'slanderer', shows plainly that he understood it of malicious men. But I have no doubt that Paul was warning us to beware lest Satan should take possession of our minds, like an enemy-occupied fortress, and do whatever he pleases. We feel every day how incurable is the disease of long-continued hatred, or at least, how difficult it is to cure it. What is the cause of this, but that, instead of resisting the devil, we yield up to him the possession of our hearts? Therefore, before our heart is filled with the poison of hatred, anger must be dislodged in good time. (pp. 192, 193, THL Parker/Torrance edition)


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## Barnpreacher (Jan 30, 2008)

Jerusalem Blade said:


> Sorry to revive this older thread, but preaching through Ephesians I came across Calvin's view on Eph 4:27, which is very close to what I stated above:
> 
> 
> 
> > _Neither give place..._ I know how some expound this. Erasmus, using the word 'slanderer', shows plainly that he understood it of malicious men. But I have no doubt that Paul was warning us to beware lest Satan should take possession of our minds, like an enemy-occupied fortress, and do whatever he pleases. We feel every day how incurable is the disease of long-continued hatred, or at least, how difficult it is to cure it. What is the cause of this, but that, instead of resisting the devil, we yield up to him the possession of our hearts? Therefore, before our heart is filled with the poison of hatred, anger must be dislodged in good time. (pp. 192, 193, THL Parker/Torrance edition)



Thanks for the Calvin quote, Steve. I agree with him completely. I don't think there is any doubt about the fact that everyday we must guard our minds against letting Satan win the thought battle. Our thoughts control our emotions, and therefore our emotions control what we do. So if Satan were able to paralyze God's children with guilt of sin or some evil thought then before long that Christian would be an emotional wreck. And what follows is a Christian that is taking no part in the work of God's kingdom. This is ultimately what Satan wants for us. He's the great deceiver.

It all starts in the heart. We must purpose in our hearts to yield ourselves up completely to God everyday (in the strength of Christ, of course), and to bring every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.

I do believe there are thoughts that come into our mind that are a result of spiritual oppression working with our sinful natures, but I don't think those thoughts are sinful if they are not entertained. All thoughts can be brought captive to the obedience of Christ, or he wouldn't have commanded us to do so.


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## Denton Elliott (Jan 30, 2008)

How can a demon reside in the same body as the Holy Spirit!?
No a Christian cannot be possessed as that would mean a demon has dominion:

pos·sess (pə-zěs') Pronunciation Key 
tr.v. pos·sessed, pos·sess·ing, pos·sess·es 

1. To have as property; own. 
4. To gain or exert influence or control over; dominate: Fury possessed me. 
6. To cause to own, hold, or master something, such as property or knowledge: She possessed herself of the unclaimed goods.


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## Richard King (Jan 30, 2008)

I don't think Satan can possess what belongs to God but he can torment what belongs to God.

It seems that there are those whose very minds have been taken over but the mind is flesh and vulnerable. But praise God the mind is not the soul.


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## BobVigneault (Jan 30, 2008)

Thank you Denton, so many times a question can be answered easily by simply defining the words. With these definitions I agree the answer is 'no'.


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## Barnpreacher (Jan 30, 2008)

Satan possessed - NO! 

Satan oppressed - Without a doubt! There are too many Scriptural examples to say otherwise.


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