# The liberalization of the PCA



## A.Joseph (Jan 25, 2019)

I haven’t watched this yet, but wondering how these drifts occur unchecked? Any members of PCA here? Have you expressed similar concerns?


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## NaphtaliPress (Jan 25, 2019)

Do you mean here in the podcast (they are all CREC people which is Doug Wilson's denomination). If you mean here on PB, there are a lot of PCA people. Summarize what it is you want to know. Don't just post a video and expect folks to look at it and try to figure out what it is.


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## A.Joseph (Jan 25, 2019)

Sorry, I mean the PCA members here on PB. It seems like liberal activism and political agendas which run counter to the denomination’s confessions and standards is overwhelming the PCA. Social justice, sexuality, MLK50, women in leadership, Covenant Seminary, etc..... it’s difficult to pin it all down since it’s all very subtle, but hard to ignore (or at least should be)




NaphtaliPress said:


> Do you mean here in the podcast (they are all CREC people which is Doug Wilson's denomination). If you mean here on PB, there are a lot of PCA people. Summarize what it is you want to know. Don't just post a video and expect folks to look at it and try to figure out what it is.


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## NaphtaliPress (Jan 25, 2019)

Yes; it is a big problem that has been simmering but broken out the last several years. I would pay attention to the faithful PCA guys. We'll know more this summer if the opposition is strong enough against these things.

Reactions: Like 4 | Praying 1


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## Taylor (Jan 25, 2019)

I'm not in the PCA, but in listening to this podcast (I _love_ Cross Politic, by the way), I fear a lot of the same things are happening at my _alma mater_, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. I experienced a lot of the same things that is apparently going on at Covenant Theological Seminary.


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## A.Joseph (Jan 25, 2019)

There are no checks in place to prevent such shifts/drifts? Seminaries shouldn’t be evolving. Maybe we are not maintaining enough separation. Not just certain institutions but the individual Christian as well. Plenty of snares and seductions offered by the community at large. It’s a battle, for sure.... wondering if there are agenda driven change agents infiltrating these institutions ? Or if there are money trails that could shed a light on these matters


Taylor Sexton said:


> I'm not in the PCA, but in listening to this podcast (I _love_ Cross Politic, by the way), I fear a lot of the same things are happening at my _alma mater_, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. I experienced a lot of the same things that is apparently going on at Covenant Theological Seminary.


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## Taylor (Jan 25, 2019)

A.Joseph said:


> There are no checks in place to prevent such shifts/drifts?



Well, TEDS is the seminary of a Free Church denomination, which is a loosely-connected set of congregational churches. The denomination has, as far as I am aware, no authority at TEDS.

Covenant Seminary, being Presbyterian, is a different matter.


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## augustacarguy (Jan 25, 2019)

Yes. I’m very concerned, especially at what happening at Covenant and the St Louis presbytery, think Revoice and South City Church. My own church, in Augusta, has been headed towards social justice. Our last preacher, who has recently left for an EPC church, was the moderator of GA two years ago. It remains to be seen where our new pastor will take us.

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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Jan 25, 2019)

3 of our local PCA churches in south Florida are extremely sound and honorable. We are in the Gulf Stream Presbytery. Faithful ministers of the Scriptures they are.

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## JTB.SDG (Jan 25, 2019)

I'm a TE in the PCA. I think there are things that are concerning but Paul says in Acts 20 it's always going to be that way. There's never going to be some "solid denomination" that doesn't have people trying to be Christ or lead it astray; or any "solid church" for that matter. Paul told these elders on the beach not only that wolves would arise in general, but wolves would arise even from among them. Scripture would call us to be faithful to fight for purity in whatever imperfect church or denomination we find ourselves.

Can you clarify how interacting with social justice issues runs against the Westminster standards? Can you clarify how Covenant Seminary as an entire institution is bad or liberal? As far as I understand, the troubling conference that took place in St. Louis is being dealt with in the appropriate manner.


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## Edward (Jan 25, 2019)

JTB.SDG said:


> Can you clarify how Covenant Seminary as an entire institution is bad or liberal?



Trick question: What do you think about Covenant Seminary's Systematic Theology Department?


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## JTB.SDG (Jan 25, 2019)

Ed, I haven't been there for 12 years, and honestly I haven't been keeping up much. Can you enlighten me?


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## A.Joseph (Jan 25, 2019)

JTB.SDG said:


> Can you clarify how interacting with social justice issues runs against the Westminster standards?


Im going to have to turn that around on you and ask how anything resembling SJ is a church mandate and how should that look?

I think SJ is a humanistic prideful phenomenon that is centered on leveling playing fields....there is a power element to it and an almost hidden ideology that is grounded in uprooting the statusquo.....
I also think there is a pride element meant to puff up man in pursuit of righting wrongs..... at least here in the States. So not sure this is what Jesus had in mind. Not sure Jesus wants to work through political systems to produce equitable outcomes... because the state sees the church as a means to fulfill a humanitarian and ultimately dehumanizing sustainability agenda that is ultimately gnostic at its core.....

So folks like Rockefellers and Soros would like to use Social Justice to remove Christ from Christianity and make the churches a pagan extension of the state.... I will stand by my belief of this no matter how I am criticized for it....but this is what has happened to many once faithful and now fallen denominations.... think PCUSA

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## Polanus1561 (Jan 26, 2019)

I see Pipa, Benjamin Shaw (GPTS) as the bastions of conservatism in the PCA.

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## JTB.SDG (Jan 26, 2019)

A.Joseph said:


> Im going to have to turn that around on you and ask how anything resembling SJ is a church mandate and how should that look?



I don't think it's on me to defend any position. You are the one who said it. I'm simply asking you to defend your statement.

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## A.Joseph (Jan 26, 2019)

Individual acts of mercy, charity, dignity and respect for all human beings as made in the image of God, secondary to a sharing of the Gospel message, is a vital part of what it means to be a Christian. I don’t see the loaded term ‘social justice’ anywhere in my Bible so I don’t entertain it, nor abide by it.... if it intersects and overlaps in certain areas with Christian charity and/or missions that’s fine, but that is not my concern, nor should be a concern of the church

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## Edward (Jan 26, 2019)

JTB.SDG said:


> Ed, I haven't been there for 12 years, and honestly I haven't been keeping up much. Can you enlighten me?



There are several Eds around this place, but from context, I'll assume you are asking me in relation to the question I asked you.

Covenant Seminary did away with their Systematic Theology department several years ago. They still have some ST courses in their new Missional Theology department. But priorities are priorities.


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## JTB.SDG (Jan 27, 2019)

Edward said:


> There are several Eds around this place, but from context, I'll assume you are asking me in relation to the question I asked you.
> 
> Covenant Seminary did away with their Systematic Theology department several years ago. They still have some ST courses in their new Missional Theology department. But priorities are priorities.


Wow, really? I did not know that.


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## Bill Duncan (Jan 27, 2019)

John Yap said:


> I see Pipa, Benjamin Shaw (GPTS) as the bastions of conservatism in the PCA.


Amen, Jon.


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## A.Joseph (Jan 27, 2019)

> Let’s rehearse the path of Covenant’s decline.
> 
> We start with longtime theology professor at Covenant, David Jones. In an interview published in the October 4, 1999 issue of “Christianity Today,” Professor Jones called for the repeal of sodomy laws. Shocked by his declaration during their interview of him, CT asked Jones if he was going on record as opposing sodomy statutes? Jones responded, “Yes. I don’t think they’re necessary.”
> 
> ...


https://warhornmedia.com/2019/01/15/covenant-theological-seminary-and-the-decline-of-the-pca/

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## TylerRay (Jan 27, 2019)

A.Joseph said:


> I haven’t watched this yet, but wondering how these drifts occur unchecked?


It's because the PCA allows exceptions to its confessional standards and doesn't enforce its constitution.

The discussion in the video is ironic because the CREC isn't much stronger constitutionally than the PCA. There's no reason to think the same thing won't happen there over the next generation or two.

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## Edward (Jan 27, 2019)

A.Joseph said:


> how these drifts occur unchecked?


\

One of the marks of a true church is proper administration of discipline. Some courts of the PCA do a good job, others notably not. And the higher courts seem to take a "hands off" position at times, using narrow procedural technicalities to avoid safeguarding the purity of the church. The only reason that they ever did anything about the situation in Monroe is that an entire presbytery threatened to depart and split the denomination.

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## A.Joseph (Jan 27, 2019)

Edward said:


> \
> 
> One of the marks of a true church is proper administration of discipline. Some courts of the PCA do a good job, others notably not. And the higher courts seem to take a "hands off" position at times, using narrow procedural technicalities to avoid safeguarding the purity of the church. The only reason that they ever did anything about the situation in Monroe is that an entire presbytery threatened to depart and split the denomination.


What was the situation in Monroe?

I found this placing blame on the “poison of a "strict old school confessionalism"
but couldn’t figure out the jist of the controversy https://johnharmstrong.typepad.com/john_h_armstrong_/2008/01/the-pca-divided.html

I also came across this....
https://dougwils.com/books-and-culture/s7-engaging-the-culture/pca-r-i-p-.html


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## JTB.SDG (Jan 27, 2019)

A.Joseph said:


> https://warhornmedia.com/2019/01/15/covenant-theological-seminary-and-the-decline-of-the-pca/



I stand corrected. Sorry brother, I though you were being nit-picky. I've been out of the loop; you miss some things serving overseas.

There is indeed a lot disconcerting. Prayers for the seminary and for the proposal to bring it out of the PCA at the next GA.

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## Edward (Jan 27, 2019)

A.Joseph said:


> What was the situation in Monroe?



Very short and simplified version. Others on the board with greater involvement or better records and memories may diverge or enlarge:

Steve Wilkins was a leading proponent of the Federal Vision theology and was senior pastor at Auburn Avenue PCA in Monroe. At the time FV was known by several names including Auburn Avenue Theology. Louisiana Presbytery repeatedly refused to act on the matter, and Westminster Presbytery forced the issue. When the Presbytery's hand was finally forced, Auburn Avenue and its pastor decamped from the PCA, leaving those who had stood with him at the presbytery level holding the bag. In the end, the presbytery was abolished, and the remnants split among three other Presbyteries. 

If it had been dealt with properly by the court of original jurisdiction, it never would have turned into nearly as big of a mess that it did. And the situation would have continued to fester if the usual 'go along, get along' folks hadn't been painted into a corner.


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## Bill Duncan (Jan 28, 2019)

Time to start from Scratch. Its the New School/Old School 2.0 or 3.0 depending where you start counting. Even if you start today, kicking Covenant out in the street, there is not enough grass roots among particular Churches to change course. After a year of trying to persuade my own Session of the problems in the PCA and how that puts our congregation susceptible to the contagion, they hang all hope of remaining sound on God's providential care in situating them in an insular, non-connectional, independent relationship to their affiliation. Don't participate in Presbytery or General Assembly, keep the congregation in the dark, and whistle while you work, and all will be well.

A few months ago my Session approved a women's group study book. When my daughter brought it home I read some of it. I got no farther than the introduction and my "Spidey" senses went on alert. First the author says that national Israel was saved by their "trust in the Lord" *and *"heartfelt obedience to the law." Then later she goes on say that the last day will be a day of final salvation judgment. She may have meant well by this but in today's climate those can be dangerous statements with out more explanation. My dispensational and Federal vision friends would both be pleased however. Whether she meant the interpretation I concluded or not , these are not good terms just to through out in a group study without clarification. When I asked the Session to please take another look at the book, the response was that it was reccommended by the PCA so it would be fine. Wow how trusting!

So that's an example of the danger of staying put and trusting that your particular church can remain sound just by talking a good talk but not putting your money where your mouth is.

Just to make sure my statement here remains in the framework of this thread, the author if this book I mentioned is married to a former Covenant President and is the granddaughter of J. Oliver Buswell, another former president of Covenant.

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## TheOldCourse (Jan 28, 2019)

TylerRay said:


> It's because the PCA allows exceptions to its confessional standards and doesn't enforce its constitution.
> 
> The discussion in the video is ironic because the CREC isn't much stronger constitutionally than the PCA. There's no reason to think the same thing won't happen there over the next generation or two.



Perhaps, but those microdenominations like the CREC tend to keep their identity longer simply because they define themselves against those outside of them. More likely is a slow death due to membership loss rather than due to liberalism. That said, as many problems as the PCA has I'd rather be there than the CREC since I would at least have some confidence in the PCA that they are getting justification (mostly) right.

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## TylerRay (Jan 28, 2019)

TheOldCourse said:


> Perhaps, but those microdenominations like the CREC tend to keep their identity longer simply because they define themselves against those outside of them. More likely is a slow death due to membership loss rather than due to liberalism. That said, as many problems as the PCA has I'd rather be there than the CREC since I would at least have some confidence in the PCA that they are getting justification (mostly) right.


I agree with you for the most part, but the CREC is a larger denomination with a greater breadth of views than many people realize. Also, they have a commitment to ecumenicism that will leave them vulnerable to many of these social justice/sexuality issues. Right now they're very conservative on family issues, etc., but I don't see any good reason to think that will last--just look at their friendliness to ETS and to guys like N. T. Wright. Some of them seem to be very self-conscious regarding their Southern Presbyterian and Reconstructionist roots. Their backtracking on those things will weaken them significantly on many issues. All the while, they don't have the constitutional safeguards to check that slide.

I don't know the future--I only know what I observed when I was in the CREC, and what I've observed as an outsider since then.

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## A.Joseph (Jan 28, 2019)

Edward said:


> Very short and simplified version. Others on the board with greater involvement or better records and memories may diverge or enlarge:
> 
> Steve Wilkins was a leading proponent of the Federal Vision theology and was senior pastor at Auburn Avenue PCA in Monroe. At the time FV was known by several names including Auburn Avenue Theology. Louisiana Presbytery repeatedly refused to act on the matter, and Westminster Presbytery forced the issue. When the Presbytery's hand was finally forced, Auburn Avenue and its pastor decamped from the PCA, leaving those who had stood with him at the presbytery level holding the bag. In the end, the presbytery was abolished, and the remnants split among three other Presbyteries.
> 
> If it had been dealt with properly by the court of original jurisdiction, it never would have turned into nearly as big of a mess that it did. And the situation would have continued to fester if the usual 'go along, get along' folks hadn't been painted into a corner.


Thanks, very telling....


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## TheOldCourse (Jan 28, 2019)

TylerRay said:


> I agree with you for the most part, but the CREC is a larger denomination with a greater breadth of views than many people realize. Also, they have a commitment to ecumenicism that will leave them vulnerable to many of these social justice/sexuality issues. Right now they're very conservative on family issues, etc., but I don't see any good reason to think that will last--just look at their friendliness to ETS and to guys like N. T. Wright. Some of them seem to be very self-conscious regarding their Southern Presbyterian and Reconstructionist roots. Their backtracking on those things will weaken them significantly on many issues. All the while, they don't have the constitutional safeguards to check that slide.
> 
> I don't know the future--I only know what I observed when I was in the CREC, and what I've observed as an outsider since then.



To my view, and I'm less familiar with them than you are, their being conservative on family and social issues (indeed, hyperconservative even) is their one true "distinctive." Sure, many are FV and "high church" ecumenical (both of which ties them closely to a guy like Wright), but it's hard to see them existing or having much appeal to their membership without that social conservatism. Most of Doug Wilson's followers aren't even aware of his theological aberrations. They just like his views on beards and what he makes up about the early Republic.

In any case, to return to the OP, the first step of theological liberalism has never been to deny orthodox doctrines, it has always been driven by moderates who wish primarily to make a cultural impact and see disputes over doctrine as a hindrance to that mission. It's a result of otherwise orthodox men for whom orthodoxy isn't of first importance. The true liberals, a significant minority in the early days, didn't kill the PCUSA, it was the masses of moderates who didn't take the issues seriously enough to do anything about it because it was more important to be united together in the work of sharing the gospel (something not precisely defined) and reforming the culture. I fear that the PCA is treading a very similar path.

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## Smeagol (Jan 28, 2019)

https://www.theaquilareport.com/a-call-for-action-its-time-to-recapture-the-pca/


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## Romans922 (Jan 28, 2019)

Where's Jacob Aitken on this Monroe talk? The PCA tried planting a church there, my friend was the pastor but the session over him was a little heavy handed. My friend wanted to plant an old school ordinary means church, and the session wanted the church to be just like theirs. Didn't work out well, church plant failed. 

There's a good ARP church there, not sure why the PCA desires to come in personally. Especially with a major factory closing down there soon. All that was off topic. 

I was ordained in PCA in 2008, joined the RPCNA in 2018 with my congregation. We did not leave because of the PCA, but the current state of the PCA didn't help its case when my congregation was considering leaving or not. It does seem to be getting worse, generally, but there are still some good congregations out there. 

Though I suppose you could have said the same thing about the PCUSA a few years ago, and the EPC now. The PCUSA for years has had congregations leaving for the EPC. Now because of that, a number of EPC congregations are leaving for the PCA.

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## RamistThomist (Jan 28, 2019)

Romans922 said:


> Where's Jacob Aitken on this Monroe talk? The PCA tried planting a church there, my friend was the pastor but the session over him was a little heavy handed. My friend wanted to plant an old school ordinary means church, and the session wanted the church to be just like theirs. Didn't work out well, church plant failed.
> 
> There's a good ARP church there, not sure why the PCA desires to come in personally. Especially with a major factory closing down there soon. All that was off topic.
> 
> ...



I'm just going to list the facts:

1) As Andrew noted, the PCA "tried" (not very hard) to do a church plant in Monroe 10 year or so ago. It failed (for various reasons).

2) There is a good ARP church 20 minutes from Monroe.

3) There is a conservative EPC church (my church). The pastor speaks on the banner of truth circuit and knew RC Sproul.

4) The area in which this new PCA plant is targeting is geared toward Century Link corporation, which is about to leave Northeast La.

I don't want to tell a person, "You can't start a church here." But I will tell you the facts.

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## TheOldCourse (Jan 28, 2019)

Romans922 said:


> Where's Jacob Aitken on this Monroe talk? The PCA tried planting a church there, my friend was the pastor but the session over him was a little heavy handed. My friend wanted to plant an old school ordinary means church, and the session wanted the church to be just like theirs. Didn't work out well, church plant failed.
> 
> There's a good ARP church there, not sure why the PCA desires to come in personally. Especially with a major factory closing down there soon. All that was off topic.
> 
> ...



And both the RPCNA and the ARP can testify that a slide into liberalism is not inevitable. Both denominations flirted with it (the RPCNA around the same time as the PCUSA, the ARP around the same time as the PCUS) and both staved off the threat and were reformed by the grace of God and the efforts of good men who took a stand for God's truth. The ARP perhaps still has a little work to do but seems to be continuing a trend towards greater confessional fidelity. I pray that the same thing happens in the PCA.

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## Smeagol (Jan 28, 2019)

BayouHuguenot said:


> 4) Century Link corporation, which is about to leave Northeast La.


How sure is this?


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## RamistThomist (Jan 28, 2019)

Grant Jones said:


> How sure is this?



It is going to happen, but no one really knows when. They are laying off people every few months. Sad, too, because it provided so many jobs to my community.

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## Edward (Jan 28, 2019)

Romans922 said:


> Where's Jacob Aitken on this Monroe talk? The PCA tried planting a church there, my friend was the pastor but the session over him was a little heavy handed. My friend wanted to plant an old school ordinary means church, and the session wanted the church to be just like theirs. Didn't work out well, church plant failed.



Sounds like a victory of hope over common sense. 



BayouHuguenot said:


> I don't want to tell a person, "You can't start a church here." But I will tell you the facts.



Working on information that's at least a quarter of a century out of date, I'd look at West Monroe if I was planning a church plant. 



BayouHuguenot said:


> There is a good ARP church 20 minutes from Monroe.



Have things settled back down there? We should all remember what happened when they had a fairly rigid pastor at that church.


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## RamistThomist (Jan 28, 2019)

Edward said:


> Have things settled back down there? We should all remember what happened when they had a fairly rigid pastor at that church.



Yes. the church is stable, if small.

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## RamistThomist (Jan 28, 2019)

Edward said:


> Working on information that's at least a quarter of a century out of date, I'd look at West Monroe if I was planning a church plant.



Better place than Monroe or Sterlington. The church formerly known as AAPC moved to one of the main streets in West Monroe. There is also a Reformed baptist church nearby, but it's pretty small.

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## jfschultz (Jan 28, 2019)

A.Joseph said:


> There are no checks in place to prevent such shifts/drifts?


The PCA exists because past elders did not do their job!

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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 28, 2019)

I think the trajectory of the PCA is sort of a dog's breakfast right now and I'm not sure how it will turn out. There are parallels to prior times but disjunctions as well.

The parallel is what Machen called conservatives who were "sweetness and light" kind of conservatives. There is a sometimes shocking amount of ambivalence and ignorance about our system of doctrine.

I think I sometimes feel like there is less of a widespread concerted move to a particular position and more of a "flowing with the culture" because many are not well rooted in our doctrines and are prone to apply "pastoral theology" in a way that is not grounded in a deep understanding of the Scriptures and our theology. I am not sanguine about the future of Covenant Seminary and would not commend it as a place for people considering the ministry.

That all said, the PCA is not quite "liberalizing" in the sense of "we no longer believe the Bible is inspired and we're embarrassed about inspiration and such". I think what we're seeing is a neo-Kuyperian movement that is moving the center of theology away from a Reformed center and into a pseudo-Reformed center in terms of its doctrine.

I think this interview with Bill Dennison is really one of the most useful summaries of what is going on with the neo-Calvinist Transformationalists: https://reformedforum.org/ctc497/

It's no accident that CTS is renamed Missional Theology because I think the transformational theology fundamentally sees Romans 8 not as a statement about what God is doing in creation for the sake of the elect but what God is doing in creation for the sake of the _world_. Thus, the center of activity moves from the work to gather the Church to the role of what God is doing to "redeem the culture", etc.

Now, to be fair, when Theonomists focus on this issue, many Christians are kind of cool with it because it sees at its end a sort of "conservative agenda". Now that you have neo-Calvinists who are focused on progressive causes then it becomes much more apparent where the whole project is amiss.

I think the reason it is accelerating and is popular is because it is popular with the culture. If my "redeem the city" or "redeem the culture" theology looks and smells like something the world appreciates then I'm not a subject of being reviled by the world. I'm just sort of "cleaning up" that bad ways people are bringing about my same agenda. If I'm a theonomist, however, then I'm sort of a pariah to the world which is why it's not a really popular way to be a neo-Calvinist. In other words, DW is a jerk but Tim Killer is cool and I want to hang with that guy.

Hence, without really saying it, there's a lot of "friendship with the world" going on because being a woke transformationalist is not at all costly when you're marching against the police with Black Lives Matters. You can pull off just about anything you need to when your a transformationalist because you sort of have a theological way to justify just about any kind of transformationalist activity that looks like the world and still convince yourself that your a conservative inerrantist.

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## RamistThomist (Jan 28, 2019)

Grant Jones said:


> How sure is this?



Now that I recall, CenturyLink is under contract for the next few years, then they will almost certainly move.


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## A.Joseph (Jan 28, 2019)

Semper Fidelis said:


> I think the trajectory of the PCA is sort of a dog's breakfast right now and I'm not sure how it will turn out. There are parallels to prior times but disjunctions as well.
> 
> The parallel is what Machen called conservatives who were "sweetness and light" kind of conservatives. There is a sometimes shocking amount of ambivalence and ignorance about our system of doctrine.
> 
> ...


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## RamistThomist (Jan 28, 2019)

A.Joseph said:


> The more I look into classic or consistently conceived theonomy the less legitimacy it seems to merit as far as our place here on this earth. JDHall does a pretty good job here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's tricky. Theonomy divides into a myriad of sub groups:

1) The American Vision theonomists will be Social Justice Warriors within the next two years. They are like the Old Testament version of the Gospel Coalition.

2) Rushdoony's disciples have done very little in the past few years and will probably fade into a deserved obscurity

3) Then you have the Covenanter Theonomist types. While I have problems with Covenanter thought, these guys are superior to (1)-(2) and usually come down on the right side of social issues.

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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 28, 2019)

BayouHuguenot said:


> It's tricky. Theonomy divides into a myriad of sub groups:
> 
> 1) The American Vision theonomists will be Social Justice Warriors within the next two years. They are like the Old Testament version of the Gospel Coalition.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the taxonomy. That said, I think we do have to reckon with the "distortion field" created by putting "cultural transformation" at the center of our theology. It probably irks some to no end to think that Michelle Higgins is sort of the "polar political opposite" to some bearded conservative pushing for women to wear long skirts but they are shoots off the same shoot. In the past I've found some theonomists to be mostly annoying. There are some really great guys so I"m not trying to paint all as jerks. That said, some are so obsessed with government that they're harmless "annoyances" because they sort of pipe up about something and sound like conspiracy theorists to a lot of people. The Higgins' brand, however, has a lot of traction with young people. It's hip. It's where the culture is. It's the way people are thinking these days because the culture has molded their thinking so it spreads like a malignant cancer in a way that theonomy never could because the ground was so rocky to think that way.

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## SeanPatrickCornell (Jan 28, 2019)

BayouHuguenot said:


> It's tricky. Theonomy divides into a myriad of sub groups:
> 
> 1) The American Vision theonomists will be Social Justice Warriors within the next two years. They are like the Old Testament version of the Gospel Coalition...



Joel McDurmon is already there. He's also apparently not a theonomist anymore in any meaningful sense.

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## Edward (Jan 28, 2019)

BayouHuguenot said:


> The church formerly known as AAPC moved to one of the main streets in West Monroe.



I am behind the times. 

I just looked at their new location, and when I said West Monroe, that wasn't exactly the area I had in mind. 

I would have thought they would have at least linked from their old web site to their new identity.

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## RamistThomist (Jan 29, 2019)

Edward said:


> I am behind the times.
> 
> I just looked at their new location, and when I said West Monroe, that wasn't exactly the area I had in mind.
> 
> I would have thought they would have at least linked from their old web site to their new identity.



Their new choice of location is brilliant on one hand, but in terms of their classical school, it's a nightmare for picking up and dropping off kids.


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## A.Joseph (Jan 29, 2019)

I found this interesting. I don’t really have an opinion on Tim Keller. .... an interesting aspect of this debate is how different parts of the country breed different cultures. But there is a danger of adopting the culture you are placed to minister. The wealthy elite and many millennials are attracted to equal justice and ‘progressive’/collectivist causes like amnesty, welfare, affirmative action, distribution of wealth, etc... https://pulpitandpen.org/2017/12/26/conservative-pundit-warns-pca-about-tim-keller/


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## RamistThomist (Jan 29, 2019)

A.Joseph said:


> I found this interesting. I don’t really have an opinion on Tim Keller. .... an interesting aspect of this debate is how different parts of the country breed different cultures. But there is a danger of adopting the culture you are placed to minister. The wealthy elite and many millennials are attracted to equal justice and ‘progressive’/collectivist causes like amnesty, welfare, affirmative action, distribution of wealth, etc... https://pulpitandpen.org/2017/12/26/conservative-pundit-warns-pca-about-tim-keller/



Mixed bag. Almost anything Pulpit and Pen writes is wrong, so take it with a grain of salt. Keller's ballet dance was sort of the anchor that broke the camel's back. But keller has also done some good stuff.

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## Taylor (Jan 29, 2019)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Almost anything Pulpit and Pen writes is wrong, so take it with a grain of salt.



And almost all of that which they produce that is true or right is presented in such aggressive, sometimes offensive, and Christ-dishonoring language that the flame of any good its truth might otherwise accomplish is doused by the flood of vitriol.

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## RamistThomist (Jan 29, 2019)

Taylor Sexton said:


> And almost all of that which they produce that is true or right is presented in such aggressive, sometimes offensive, and Christ-dishonoring language that the flame of any good its truth might otherwise accomplish is doused by the flood of vitriol.



They are the Westboro Baptist Church of the Internet

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## A.Joseph (Jan 29, 2019)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Mixed bag. Almost anything Pulpit and Pen writes is wrong, so take it with a grain of salt. Keller's ballet dance was sort of the anchor that broke the camel's back. But keller has also done some good stuff.


Fair enough... here’s the original source material from conservative columnist Erick Erickson who I did not know is a member of the PCA. https://www.themaven.net/theresurge...ica-heed-the-warnings-vMWNv0-p902qXNkbSSsCyA/

JD Hall is very smart. I don’t know what his defect/disconnect is that he can go so far off the rails. It’s like a part of his emotional maturity is stunted along with a touch of narcissism not completely foreign to certain circles of ministry where accountability is lacking


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## A.Joseph (Jan 29, 2019)

This seems like their standard modus operandi of deflection..... (I don’t mean to sound critical or accusatory. I think we speak on these issues because we truly love and care for the preservation of the gospel ..... to Whom else shall we go???)


> *UPDATED: Several PCA pastors tell me they think I am overstating or misstating the problem.*
> 
> *By* *Erick Erickson
> 
> ...


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## Edward (Jan 29, 2019)

BayouHuguenot said:


> Their new choice of location is brilliant on one hand



I don't know. It looks like a better location for the Assembly of God congregation that moved out. j


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## RamistThomist (Jan 29, 2019)

Edward said:


> I don't know. It looks like a better location for the Assembly of God congregation that moved out. j



It's good in that it is on one of the busiest roads in NE Louisiana. Church parking, accordingly, and pick up, is a nightmare.

The location to which the Assembly of God church moved is much better.


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## TheInquirer (Jan 29, 2019)

> And almost all of that which they produce that is true or right is presented in such aggressive, sometimes offensive, and Christ-dishonoring language that the flame of any good its truth might otherwise accomplish is doused by the flood of vitriol.



Is this kind of a thing within some RB circles? It seems that more than half the time when I come across scathing criticism on the Internet couched in really unhelpful language they tend to be RBs - not always and not all of them but from my perspective it seems a bit disproportionate. It's been kind of discouraging.



> Keller's ballet dance was sort of the anchor that broke the camel's back. But keller has also done some good stuff.



I think of Keller as a "brilliant tragedy." So much good mixed with so much "What in the world are you doing/talking about?" Must read with a very high level of discernment in my opinion.


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 29, 2019)

TheInquirer said:


> Is this kind of a thing within some RB circles? It seems that more than half the time when I come across scathing criticism on the Internet couched in really unhelpful language they tend to be RBs - not always and not all of them but from my perspective it seems a bit disproportionate. It's been kind of discouraging.


Trust me, Baptists don't have a corner on being jerks. There are plenty of Presbyterians. We're all sinners. That said, it is nice to have a court above the level of a session to whom charges may be brought.


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## Edward (Jan 29, 2019)

BayouHuguenot said:


> The location to which the Assembly of God church moved is much better.



Yes, it looks more like what I was thinking when I said West Monroe.


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## Taylor (Jan 29, 2019)

Semper Fidelis said:


> ...a court above the level of a session to whom charges may be brought.



I was going to say this very thing. To whom is J. D. Hall accountable, ecclesiastically? (Hint: No one. Hence his seemingly unrestrained and, as I see it, worsening behavior.)

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## TheInquirer (Jan 29, 2019)

> I was going to say this very thing. To whom is J. D. Hall accountable, ecclesiastically? (Hint: No one. Hence his seemingly unrestrained and, as I see it, worsening behavior.)



An eldership is to be the check on the pastor in Baptist polity.



> Trust me, Baptists don't have a corner on being jerks. There are plenty of Presbyterians. We're all sinners. That said, it is nice to have a court above the level of a session to whom charges may be brought.



I don't understand how we have certain church cultures that seem extremely zealous for God's truth and yet have little zeal for God's ethical standards. Somehow, love and truth have been separated as far as the east from the west in some corners of Christendom.

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## Taylor (Jan 29, 2019)

TheInquirer said:


> An eldership is to be the check on the pastor in Baptist polity.



Ideally, yes. However, I have seen and heard of numerous situations where the elders actually have no power over a pastor in the event of misconduct or heresy. Just look at what's happening to James MacDonald at Harvest Bible Chapel in Illinois.

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## Santos (Jan 29, 2019)

I have to say that I can certainly see the wisdom and the biblical argument for a higher court such as what you see in Presbyterian polity. But what does it matter if these courts fail to act in a timely manner or at all when it comes to the types of issues recognized in this video? Such as Revoice and the likes?

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## RamistThomist (Jan 29, 2019)

Edward said:


> Yes, it looks more like what I was thinking when I said West Monroe.



Yeah. It's on a service road off the busiest street in the region, so you get the best of real estate location, yet driving in and out is relatively painless.


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## alexandermsmith (Jan 30, 2019)

A.Joseph said:


> I haven’t watched this yet, but wondering how these drifts occur unchecked?



Probably spent too long growing their beards, took their eyes off the ball.

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## Romans922 (Feb 6, 2019)

Finally found what I was looking for, who the Church planter is who is coming to Monroe, and what I believe is generally a typical (broad spectrum) method of church planting in the PCA. To clarify, this is not every church plant, there are good ones, but this one I believe is more 'normal'.

http://www.bondsinmonroe.com/?fbclid=IwAR1YetN-_y0F3RUyM3Oa7i_EBfotkSZXaWB081YXeRPdnrsuPyL_tzmh4uw


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## RamistThomist (Feb 6, 2019)

Romans922 said:


> Finally found what I was looking for, who the Church planter is who is coming to Monroe, and what I believe is generally a typical (broad spectrum) method of church planting in the PCA. To clarify, this is not every church plant, there are good ones, but this one I believe is more 'normal'.
> 
> http://www.bondsinmonroe.com/?fbclid=IwAR1YetN-_y0F3RUyM3Oa7i_EBfotkSZXaWB081YXeRPdnrsuPyL_tzmh4uw



I want to be nice, but I don't share their optimism.

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## Edward (Feb 6, 2019)

Romans922 said:


> and what I believe is generally a typical (broad spectrum) method of church planting in the PCA.



Yes, it looks to pretty much follow the model that I'm familiar with (and which has been successful.) The only two outliers are that it is for four years, and the non-ethnic plants around here tended to be on a 3 year timetable, and that he appears to be a few years older than I would have expected. 

He should understand the culture and be able to speak the language. I'd be optimistic at this point.


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## Romans922 (Feb 6, 2019)

Edward said:


> Yes, it looks to pretty much follow the model that I'm familiar with (and which has been successful.) The only two outliers are that it is for four years, and the non-ethnic plants around here tended to be on a 3 year timetable, and that he appears to be a few years older than I would have expected.
> 
> He should understand the culture and be able to speak the language. I'd be optimistic at this point.



Harris, the church planter, I know very well. I pastored the next town over from him for a time. He's not that old. 

What does "successful" mean in a church plant, Edward?


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## Edward (Feb 6, 2019)

Romans922 said:


> What does "successful" mean in a church plant, Edward?



I would define it as particularization as a viable, self supporting congregation of the visible church.


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## Romans922 (Feb 6, 2019)

Edward said:


> I would define it as particularization as a viable, self supporting congregation of the visible church.



You wouldn't include: biblical, faithful, and confessional (i.e. healthy)? You would put it only in terms of physical numbers and money, essentially (it seems like what you are implying)?


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## Edward (Feb 7, 2019)

Romans922 said:


> You wouldn't include: biblical, faithful, and confessional (i.e. healthy)? You would put it only in terms of physical numbers and money, essentially (it seems like what you are implying)?



If you need a definition of 'visible church', I would refer you to Chapter 25 of the Westminster Confession. If you have issues with that definition, we can discuss those.

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## Romans922 (Feb 7, 2019)

Edward said:


> If you need a definition of 'visible church', I would refer you to Chapter 25 of the Westminster Confession. If you have issues with that definition, we can discuss those.



Brother, here we are talking about the liberalization of the PCA, a denomination that I would say is of the visible church on earth. The visible church can be found as pure or less pure on earth. I didn’t think I needed a definition of “visible church,” however, I’m unsure why you’d reference it here in response to me. Are you saying a “successful” Reformed or Presbyterian church plant to you is any that can be considered in the visible church? Perhaps you could clarify where you are going here.


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## Edward (Feb 7, 2019)

Romans922 said:


> Are you saying a “successful” Reformed or Presbyterian church plant to you is any that can be considered in the visible church?


 No, just the ones that are viable and self supporting.


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## Romans922 (Feb 7, 2019)

Edward said:


> No, just the ones that are viable and self supporting.



So then you just restated what you stated before. I'm not sure how that brings clarity to my question posed earlier.

So successful church plant to you...



Romans922 said:


> You wouldn't include: biblical, faithful, and confessional (i.e. healthy)? You would put it only in terms of physical numbers and money, essentially (it seems like what you are implying)?


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## Pilgrim (Feb 7, 2019)

Taylor Sexton said:


> I was going to say this very thing. To whom is J. D. Hall accountable, ecclesiastically? (Hint: No one. Hence his seemingly unrestrained and, as I see it, worsening behavior.)


Who is Tim Keller and various others who are under the microscope here accountable to, really? To give another example, does anybody believe that Tullian Tchvidjian was ever going to be called to account for his unconfessional antinomian teaching? Is it that some are too big to fail? Or is it that almost no one is liable to face consequences for false teaching in the PCA today? Would it need to be an error from the "right"? 

As others have pointed out, Auburn Avenue only got into trouble because the Presbytery was violating procedure. Other men whose teaching is at least as bad have basically been exonerated by the SJC and/or their presbytery. Yet a man in a neighboring town who is a member of a PCA congregation and who is upset about SJWism recently told me he's satisfied that the FV has been taken care of in the PCA, apparently being under the impression that it really only had to do with Wilkins and refusing to be informed about other cases. 

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

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## Edward (Feb 7, 2019)

Romans922 said:


> So then you just restated what you stated before. I'm not sure how that brings clarity to my question posed earlier.



I am not seeing what of my definition you can't understand. You've said you understand 'visible church'. And self supporting seems to be self explanatory. Is 'viable' the concept you wish for me to explicate?


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## Romans922 (Feb 7, 2019)

Edward said:


> I am not seeing what of my definition you can't understand. You've said you understand 'visible church'. And self supporting seems to be self explanatory. Is 'viable' the concept you wish for me to explicate?



No, I guess by your responses you've answered my questions clear enough. I am just shocked you would have that view.


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## Pilgrim (Feb 7, 2019)

Romans922 said:


> No, I guess by your responses you've answered my questions clear enough. I am just shocked you would have that view.



I think what Edward is referring to is the prospects of a PCA congregation (or I'd add, any further "conservative" Presbyterian congregation) "staying in business" in Monroe, regardless of whether they are BR, TR, SJW, EP or whatever. I'm not sure that he is making any statement at all with regard to what "camp" they may be in or how strictly confessional he thinks they should be.

Like Jacob, I'm not too sanguine about their prospects, although this is perhaps a more serious effort than what was done several years ago. 

Admittedly, although I'm from an area less than 2 hours from there, I'm not _that_ familiar with the Monroe area but am basing this on my knowledge of the region as a whole. The last I knew, the congregation in Shreveport, which has been active for maybe 30-40 years, is reduced to renting a space, although it is probably a better location for them geographically than their building was. And the other churches along the I-20 corridor are also fairly small, although perhaps they are all stable. In Arkansas, until recent years, there were hardly any NAPARC congregations besides maybe 3-4 PCA churches in the Northwest and LR areas combined, an ARP and something else that escapes me. There have been significant planting efforts of late, and evidently the same group, or the same group(Mid-South) plus others are setting their sights on Monroe.


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## Romans922 (Feb 7, 2019)

Pilgrim said:


> Like Jacob, I'm not too sanguine about their prospects, although this is perhaps a more serious effort than what was done several years ago.



I can't say it is a more serious effort. My friend who was the church planter in the last attempt was pretty serious and committed. I could say instead of being planted by the Presbytery (functionally), this church plant is being planted by the Mid-South Church Planting Network of the PCA (and you can see their hand pretty clearly in it).


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## Pilgrim (Feb 7, 2019)

Romans922 said:


> I can't say it is a more serious effort. My friend who was the church planter in the last attempt was pretty serious and committed. I could say instead of being planted by the Presbytery (functionally), this church plant is being planted by the Mid-South Church Planting Network of the PCA (and you can see their hand pretty clearly in it).



I was thinking specifically of the financial commitment they referred to. But maybe that was the case before too. Also, the sense that I get is that Calvinism isn't as "cool" as it was 10-15 years ago. But it's cool enough for the people who get into it, I suppose. But the YRR wave seems to have crested, and with Baptists becoming more Calvinistic (and I think there is at least one RB church in that area) there is less of a stream of Baptists into Presbyterian churches than there was in the 80s-2005 (roughly) it seems to me.

Being somewhat familiar with some of Mid-South's efforts in a different state, there seems to be a lot of "Hey, we're not as stuck up and legalistic as the Baptists. You can come drink with us" and not a whole lot more substance. In other words, it wasn't the kind of expository preaching that I was used to encountering 15-20 years ago in the average PCA congregation that I'd drop in on when out of town. I visited one congregation 3-4 times and the sermons seemed to be basically the same every time. I can't recall hearing anything that was way off, (unless maybe there was a hint at Tullian type antinomianism--I can't recall for sure at this point) but it didn't go very deep compared to some Baptist and non-denom preaching in the area. (I posted something about this a few years ago.) But maybe that was just that congregation or congregations and not all of them. (I can't remember whether or not I visited two of their plants (or replants) or if it was just one and I simply looked into another one online.)

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## RamistThomist (Feb 7, 2019)

Romans922 said:


> I can't say it is a more serious effort. My friend who was the church planter in the last attempt was pretty serious and committed. I could say instead of being planted by the Presbytery (functionally), this church plant is being planted by the Mid-South Church Planting Network of the PCA (and you can see their hand pretty clearly in it).



We both know the gentleman in question. He is a fine man. Part of the difficulty was that the charter church had unrealistic expectations, and then the charter admitted they were sort of out of their league.

There were other reasons, I am sure.


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## Romans922 (Feb 7, 2019)

BayouHuguenot said:


> We both know the gentleman in question. He is a fine man. Part of the difficulty was that the charter church had unrealistic expectations, and then the charter admitted they were sort of out of their league.
> 
> There were other reasons, I am sure.



Yep. Still waiting for your thoughts on this church plant, now that you have more information and it is 'your town'.


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## RamistThomist (Feb 7, 2019)

While we all dislike AAPC, it is a big congregation (for a Presbyterian church, anyway). Even though it left the official Presbyterian world, its members are still with it. A church plant isn't going to swoop in and collect all the TRs who are upset with Auburn.

Monroe is a mix of Baptist (obviously), Church of Christ (we are the headquarters of Duck Dynasty), and some charismatics. The PCUSA church folded and most of their members went to the EPC church (my church). The EPC church is running around 250. AAPC is across the river running another 350. Calhoun is 20 minutes away, much smaller but doing better. Then there is John Knox another 45 minutes away. 

I just don't see the demographics and the unique package the new church is bringing.


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## RamistThomist (Feb 7, 2019)

Romans922 said:


> Yep. Still waiting for your thoughts on this church plant, now that you have more information and it is 'your town'.



I don't want to speak forth a Word of negativity, but...yeah. It's targeting a community that depends on a business that won't be there. The Reformed minded folk in the area are already plugged into "Reformed" churches. (And if someone says the EPC isn't "reformed," that's fine. But the people who go there think it is, which amounts to the same thing, church growth wise).

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## Pilgrim (Feb 7, 2019)

BayouHuguenot said:


> I don't want to speak forth a Word of negativity, but...yeah. It's targeting a community that depends on a business that won't be there. The Reformed minded folk in the area are already plugged into "Reformed" churches. (*And if someone says the EPC isn't "reformed," that's fine. But the people who go there think it is, which amounts to the same thing, church growth wise*).



Bingo.

If the plant is similar to the one I referred to earlier, it probably won't be much more Reformed than the local EPC congregation as Jacob has described it.

Some EPC congregations are at least middle of the road by PCA standards, and some are more Reformed than that, at least in this part of the country. Most people there probably don't care if there are female deacons, REs or even TEs in their denomination if it isn't in their congregation. As I noted above, unfortunately REs too often take a back seat to paid staff whether or not they are actually elders, so a lot of people don't care about that either so long as the main pastor isn't a woman. Even if they do care, based on this thread, does anybody think that the PCA is currently some kind of redoubt of confessionalism or even basic conservative evangelicalism? (That being said, some people will join a church with little to no knowledge of denominational politics but base it more on what they have for the kids or whatever.)

If I'm a member of a fairly solid EPC congregation, I'd be inclined to wait until all of this shakes out and see if there is going to be some kind of realignment before I commit to a PCA church plant, especially if there won't be a very clear difference with what goes on week to week with worship, preaching, and so on.

Many people outside of the PCA assume Michelle Higgins is a pastor or minister, and she's been referred to as such several times in articles or blog posts about her activities. How many people have left the SBC because of Beth Moore and Ann Graham Lotz? How many people would leave if they and other female Bible teachers were effectively silenced or if their pastor or elders said "No, we're not going to sanction that Bible study?"

Maybe over the next few years this PCA church planting effort can gather together a few dozen folks including some with deep pockets. That's seemingly the typical profile of a PCA (or other NAPARC) congregation in this part of the country.

I don't want to be too negative and admit I am looking at this with "worldly" or "fleshly" eyes and handicapping it the way I'd handicap the LSU Tigers chances this season. But it seems to me that that's what church growth strategy amounts to.

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