# Vaccinations



## Nick Muyres (Dec 19, 2019)

Hello my brothers and sisters,

I know (or at least perceive) that this is a sensitive subject, and I do not mean to unnecessarily dredge up something controversial, simply for the sake of argument.

That being said, however, I am looking for a sincere conversation regarding this subject. My wife and I are currently positioned in a stage of doubt, regarding the common understanding and science surrounding the efficacy and safety of vaccinations. This is primarily because within this particular field of medicine we have come across well educated, qualified, capable, and certified doctors on both sides of the aisle with very compelling evidence for their positions. Whenever this happens - respected men and women having two competing views - it is difficult to make a decision. I found myself in a similar spot in regards to baptism years ago, after listening to the debate between R.C. Sproul and John McArthur, walking away utterly confused because both of their arguments were so very compelling.

What further compounds the confusion (at least in my opinion) is because it seems, that the biblical argument either for the morality to or not to, vaccinate children entirely depends upon how one interprets the scientific data. In other words, if the scientific data is interpreted in a way that supports the use of vaccinations then those who do not vaccinate are breaking the 6th commandment, and are unloving toward their brother. However, if the scientific data is understood in the reverse, then those who DO vaccinate are violating the 6th commandment and are unloving toward their brother. At least this is how it seems to me.

Furthermore, is this an issue of Christian liberty and therefore should Romans 14 govern how we think of this, or is it a moral issue requiring coercive efforts toward the end that all people receive them?

I have listened to a lecture from a pastor within my denomination who is also a molecular biologist, who is very PRO vaccination, and this has only further muddied the waters.

Hopefully, this is not too vague, but if it is please let me know. My wife and I are very eager to receive helpful words as we are trying to "test everything" as the Apostle Paul instructs to do while being reasonable and being open to reason. Thank you all very much!

**Edit**
My wife and I have also read several pro and anti-vaccination books so that we can - as honestly as possible - approach this subject. we have also listened to several hours of lectures from both pro and anti-vaccination advocates. I say this only to alleviate any confusion of our study on the subject thus far.


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## Jack K (Dec 19, 2019)

Of course, there may sometimes be scientific questions about whether or not a particular vaccine works the way it is supposed to work. But in general, when we are talking about vaccines which the vast majority of the population receives, the way it is supposed to work is that there is some slight risk to everyone who receives the vaccine but an overall benefit to everyone by having society inoculated.

If a person wants to be selfish, they can refuse the vaccine, avoiding the slight personal risk while still benefitting from the fact that the rest of the people around them get the vaccine and keep illness at bay for everyone. But Christians are not supposed to be selfish.

So (again, provided the vaccines work they way they are supposed to work), Christians ought to be first to line up and get vaccines, because we put the good of others ahead of personal considerations.

Reactions: Amen 3


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## Brian R. (Dec 19, 2019)

I can't agree with Jack. We didn't vaccinate our boys. I never thought of it as being "selfish." And I still don't see it that way. I don't have time to get into the medical and theological reasons right now. Maybe later.

Reactions: Like 3 | Sad 1


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## hammondjones (Dec 19, 2019)

This is a big topic, clearly, many facets to consider as to necessity of vaccines in certain cases, the source material of certain vaccines, the overreach of government mandates, and secret vaccine damage tribunals, just to name a few, so blanket statements are often not very helpful. 

We have stopped vaccinating at this time. There is, for example, absolutely no reason to give HepB to an hours-old newborn in a situation like our family, a vaccine which contains aluminum, a known neurotoxin. 

You may have come across this already in your research, but I found the following video to be informative without overblown hype.

Reactions: Informative 2


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## Ryan&Amber2013 (Dec 19, 2019)

We do the vaccines that make sense for us to get. We try to use general discretion and wisdom in this area.

Reactions: Like 1


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## jw (Dec 19, 2019)

What controversy?

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 2


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## greenbaggins (Dec 19, 2019)

I agree with Brandon. A "one size fits all" approach is not going to work. Some vaccines work better than others (80% of those who got whooping cough in California in the 2010 outbreak were up to date on their whooping cough vaccination: doesn't sound like a very useful vaccine!). Some vaccines use aborted fetal cells and others do not. Some vaccines are merely to fight the symptoms and others do not (in which case a vaccine could actually _mask_ the symptoms while the person might still have the disease, thus INCREASING the risk of others getting the disease). Some vaccines have heavy amounts of poisonous materials in them, while others do not. Blanket statements and hysteria are not the way forward here. Research _each_ contemplated vaccine as to its effectiveness, its materials, its advisability in the current state of the disease the vaccine is supposed to prevent, and its side effects. One of the BIG problems as to the last issue is that vaccine makers cannot be sued, which means that they are not usually inclined to do double-blind placebo controlled experiments on the vaccines to see how safe they are. You have a to do a bit more digging to find out about the safety of a vaccine. So my counsel is to do your own research on every vaccine, and look at both sides on a given vaccine, and make sure to take into account whether the person defending or attacking a given vaccine has an axe to grind, or possible ulterior motivation, or a conflict of interest.

Reactions: Like 3 | Amen 1


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## Username3000 (Dec 19, 2019)

greenbaggins said:


> I agree with Brandon. A "one size fits all" approach is not going to work. Some vaccines work better than others (80% of those who got whooping cough in California in the 2010 outbreak were up to date on their whooping cough vaccination: doesn't sound like a very useful vaccine!). Some vaccines use aborted fetal cells and others do not. Some vaccines are merely to fight the symptoms and others do not (in which case a vaccine could actually _mask_ the symptoms while the person might still have the disease, thus INCREASING the risk of others getting the disease). Some vaccines have heavy amounts of poisonous materials in them, while others do not. Blanket statements and hysteria are not the way forward here. Research _each_ contemplated vaccine as to its effectiveness, its materials, its advisability in the current state of the disease the vaccine is supposed to prevent, and its side effects. One of the BIG problems as to the last issue is that vaccine makers cannot be sued, which means that they are not usually inclined to do double-blind placebo controlled experiments on the vaccines to see how safe they are. You have a to do a bit more digging to find out about the safety of a vaccine. So my counsel is to do your own research on every vaccine, and look at both sides on a given vaccine, and make sure to take into account whether the person defending or attacking a given vaccine has an axe to grind, or possible ulterior motivation, or a conflict of interest.


That sounds good, but when you do the research, you often end up back where you started. There will be arguments from both sides that a layman cannot use to make a decision. Personally, I feel completely at the mercy of the system, and unable to find definitive answers. Very frustrating.

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## Smeagol (Dec 19, 2019)

Indeed this is hard for a layman to navigate. My family currently has the “required” vaccines. I often get others when I do foreign travel (China is Next). We have tried to research a little more with each time we have had to make the decisions.

We have a new addition as of November and are discussing this even now.

I do not default to labeling either side as selfish.


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## Edward (Dec 19, 2019)

Nick Muyres said:


> This is primarily because within this particular field of medicine we have come across well educated, qualified, capable, and certified doctors on both sides of the aisle



I'll challenge that allegation.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Steve Curtis (Dec 19, 2019)

Joshua said:


> What controversy?


Indeed, a sign of where things have gone. A year or two ago, as I recall, a similar thread was summarily closed with a simple, "Ask your doctor." It's obviously not that simple, as posts are already beginning to demonstrate.

My sister is on the forefront of the national anti-vaccination movement. I, on the other hand, am convinced of their efficacy (with some caveats, as Lane mentions). We live in the Majority World and have seen, both in Africa and Asia, entire hospital wards set aside to deal with mass epidemics of measles. We see people all the time with bodies distorted from polio. We know of many who have lost loved ones from diseases that are (again with some caveats) preventable. The difference between this part of the world and the West is, largely I'm convinced, the result of herd immunity in the West (and ignorance and superstition here). And we seem to be seeing a degrade in herd immunity in the West as the anti-vaccers gain traction.

I won't 'default' to _selfish_, either, but at some point, we have to assess our positions biblically and, consequently, morally and ethically. (It seems the OP is doing just that, and I applaud that sincerity.) There is certainly a sense in which our decisions reach far beyond our own children.

For the record, ours are vaccinated (and, interestingly, even my sister agrees that in such contexts, where proper medical care may not be attainable, vaccinations are not necessarily inappropriate).

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## A.Joseph (Dec 19, 2019)

I have no expertise, but data seems to support no ‘direct correlation’ or ‘causal link’ between the MMR and neuro-developmental issues. I’ve heard bad things about the Gardasil 9 which most Christians would probably decline. There are theories that too many sonograms could be a possible cause for ASD problems but there is no research to support that. I’d say use discernment but don’t be unreasonably dogmatic. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to delay the more mandatory vaccines within a reasonable, allowable time frame. No easy answers for sure. But sounds like you are concerned, thoughtful and exercising due diligence which is highly commendable.







Nick Muyres said:


> Hello my brothers and sisters,
> 
> I know (or at least perceive) that this is a sensitive subject, and I do not mean to unnecessarily dredge up something controversial, simply for the sake of argument.
> 
> ...


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## Andrew35 (Dec 19, 2019)

My wife's aunt wasn't vaccinated and died of polio.

People in the developing world tend to have a slightly different perspective on this issue. Is Pergamum around? I'm sure he has an interesting take. 

Personally, though I lean libertarian on most issues, I do feel the govt has the right to require a battery of essential vaccinations (e.g., not the flu vaccine, which is ridiculously ineffective most years).

Reactions: Like 2


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## lynnie (Dec 19, 2019)

A few thoughts....

I posted a link here months ago to a list of vaccinations and the ones available from Japan grown the old fashioned way (pre 1980s), NOT on human cell tissue. I would not get the ones grown on human tissue at least until my kid was older and rapid brain development was slowing. The immune system, with human DNA and proteins injected into the body, if it turns on those proteins, can attack the brain and cause autism (so say many experts). 

I heard people can demand the Japanese vaccines. I would. I think measles and mumps are not grown on human cell lines, not sure. That's the big problem, human fragments in the vacc. You have to check each one. 

Part of the problem is that vaccine theory works for denatured virus. Smallpox vaccs were one of the greatest gifts to all mankind. My granddad had polio. But now they put in all the extra adjuvants ( sp?) to increase an immune reaction, and the anti vaccers are right to protest aluminum or whatever.

I have Graves disease (auto immune) but am in remission. Quite a few medical sites say that the flu shot can trigger any autoimmune that is in remission like lupus or Graves, etc. 

The brand new shingles vacc was tested on many thousands of people but oh my, they just happened to not include any auto immune people in the mass testing. ( yeah right. I am sure they did and the results were bad). Plus the adjuvant is brand new from a tropical plant and there is no way to know what long term effects are. So much as I would not want to get shingles, I don't want an autoimmune risk either. Several sites advise against it. 

Question- are you or your children regularly exposed to immigrants and third worlders? (pro vacc)

Do you or your wife have any auto immune disease? Asthma, Graves, Hashimotos, RA, Lupus, diabetes, vitiligo, etc? ( anti vacc). 

Tough question. It is good you are doing research.

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## Andrew35 (Dec 19, 2019)

lynnie said:


> A few thoughts....
> 
> Question- are you or your children regularly exposed to immigrants and third worlders? (pro vacc)



Every day.


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## Nick Muyres (Dec 19, 2019)

Edward said:


> I'll challenge that allegation.


I think that is a very good challenge and in keeping with Paul's commendation to test everything. But here is a short list:

Sherri Tenpenny is an American osteopathic physician
Suzanna Humphries is a board-certified Medical Doctor
Russell Blaylock is a retired neurosurgeon 
Tedd Koren is a Doctor of Chiropractic 
Robert Sears is a Physician
Michael Farley is a naturopathic doctor
Robert Owen is a medical doctor

I could honestly continue to label other prominent doctors who are against - in whole or in part - vaccinations. Of course, this doesn't mean that one would consider them to be credible, especially if the disbelief in the efficacy and safety of vaccines might immediately disqualify someone as objective or scientific. This list also doesn't include my own Chiropractor or a surgeon that is a member of my church. Also, a DC and an ND would have to be considered a legitimate type of doctor, which I would consider them to be.


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## Romans922 (Dec 19, 2019)

Don't vaccinate my kids. They have been exposed and exposed others to all their germs. 

I choose not to put unnecessary things in my kids bodies, especially abortifacients.


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## Nick Muyres (Dec 19, 2019)

lynnie said:


> A few thoughts....
> 
> I posted a link here months ago to a list of vaccinations and the ones available from Japan grown the old fashioned way (pre 1980s), NOT on human cell tissue. I would not get the ones grown on human tissue at least until my kid was older and rapid brain development was slowing. The immune system, with human DNA and proteins injected into the body, if it turns on those proteins, can attack the brain and cause autism (so say many experts).
> 
> ...


That is all very good insight. My wife and I - as far as I know - are healthy and have no autoimmune diseases only by God's mercy. Our children (3) are all healthy and we are exposed to chinese people from china regulary, because the many come to Pittsburgh to attend seminary for our denomination and choose to go to our church, because it is right down the road.

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## Andrew35 (Dec 19, 2019)

Nick Muyres said:


> That is all very good insight. My wife and I - as far as I know - are healthy and have no autoimmune diseases only by God's mercy. Our children (3) are all healthy and we are exposed to chinese people from china regulary, because the many come to Pittsburgh to attend seminary for our denomination and choose to go to our church, because it is right down the road.


China doesn't really count. They require a full range of vaccinations, which are provided for free (though the quality is supposed to be variable; and you _really_ don't want to ask where some of them probably came from).

Speaking from experience here. My son was born in China and went through the regiment.


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## Nick Muyres (Dec 19, 2019)

Edward said:


> I'll challenge that allegation.


also, I only listed those who would be against vaccines, not those who would be pro. I assumed that is what you meant with the challenge. Please correct me if I assumed incorrectly.


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## Nick Muyres (Dec 19, 2019)

Andrew35 said:


> China doesn't really count. They require a full range of vaccinations, which are provided for free (though the quality is supposed to be variable; and you _really_ don't want to ask where some of them probably came from).
> 
> Speaking from experience here. My son was born in China and went through the regiment.


Roger that. I was not aware. So then, the answer would be "no" to that question.


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## Smeagol (Dec 19, 2019)

Good to know! My family could likely be in China in the near future!


Andrew35 said:


> China doesn't really count. They require a full range of vaccinations, which are provided for free (though the quality is supposed to be variable; and you _really_ don't want to ask where some of them probably came from).
> 
> Speaking from experience here. My son was born in China and went through the regiment.


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## Romans922 (Dec 19, 2019)

Here's a few reasons why we don't use vaccines. This is from the CDC (June 2018).

Pink: Human aborted fetal cell line
Orange: Animal-derived
Yellow: Toxic to humans
Green: Allergy irritant
Blue: Antibiotic

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## jwithnell (Dec 19, 2019)

With a spectrum child, I've had a deep personal interest in the topic. 

One of the better reviews of the history comes in a book called Neurotribes by Steve Silberman. While I rejected his notion of neurodiversity (I believe autism is a result of the fall) his history of the vaccination scare floored me. The original "peer reviewed" article was retracted and was based on a handful of families and a doctor who were already against vaccinations.

That said, I have mixed views on the topic. I do believe it is a proper sixth commandment application to vaccinate. I believe families should be able to choose the best schedule. 

A few years ago, drug companies turned to a highly-profitable model of combining vaccines (making them proprietary formulations). I wanted to stagger the schedule for my youngest and often could not get the single vaccines. He was not fully caught up until he registered for camp at age 11. 

I'm also troubled by the all-out marketing of vaccines for sexually transmitted illnesses and the link of vaccines to the abortion industry. 

For what it's worth, our daughters have chosen to vaccinate (kids from 6 months 3 years old) and are trying to spread out the shots.

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## Smeagol (Dec 19, 2019)

Romans922 said:


> Here's a few reasons why we don't use vaccines. This is from the CDC (June 2018).
> 
> Pink: Human aborted fetal cell line
> Orange: Animal-derived
> ...


Pastor Barnes,

This is helpful. Thank you. I plan to spend some time reviewing this.

A point of clarification I found helpful in this matter was explained by @Nate

https://www.puritanboard.com/thread...borted-fetal-tissue.97401/page-2#post-1190293


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## Tom Hart (Dec 19, 2019)

G said:


> I often get others when I do foreign travel (China is Next).


Do you need vaccines for China? I didn't. It was recommended, but not required.


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## Smeagol (Dec 19, 2019)

Tom Hart said:


> Do you need vaccines for China? I didn't. It was recommended, but not required.


I have not gotten the medical clearance data as of yet. I know some were recommended for Mexico. I’m not sure I am forced to either way.


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## ZackF (Dec 19, 2019)

G said:


> I have not gotten the medical clearance data as of yet. I know some were recommended for Mexico. I’m not sure I am forced to either way.


Given the ingredients in the sandwich pictured in your avatar, you’ll be preserved unto glorification. No need for vaccines.

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Andrew35 (Dec 19, 2019)

Tom Hart said:


> Do you need vaccines for China? I didn't. It was recommended, but not required.


Not required, no.


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## StephenMartyr (Dec 20, 2019)

Please do NOT get vaccinated!!

Watch this short video first:


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## bookslover (Dec 20, 2019)

jwithnell said:


> The original "peer reviewed" article was retracted and was based on a handful of families and a doctor who were already against vaccinations.



This is where the whole "anti-vaxxer" thing got started. This article turned out to be completely bogus. In the end, that article's author caused him to have his license revoked so that he was legally unable to practice medicine in Britain, if memory serves. Also, the article was taken down from the journal's website.

If I remember rightly, it was announced back in 2000 or so that smallpox was now pretty much eradicated. Well, thanks to the anti-vaxxers, it might be on the way back now. What's next, polio?

Sometimes, flu vaccines seem ineffective because scientists aren't quite sure which version of the flu will appear in any given year. (They tend to watch Australia to see how bad a flu season might be.) This is why some people still get the flu even after they get the flu shot.

In any case, vaccinations have saved countless lives over the years.

Ignore the conspiracy nuts - get you and your children vaccinated!

Reactions: Like 3 | Amen 2


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## Andrew35 (Dec 20, 2019)

bookslover said:


> This is where the whole "anti-vaxxer" thing got started. This article turned out to be completely bogus. In the end, that article's author caused him to have his license revoked so that he was legally unable to practice medicine in Britain, if memory serves. Also, the article was taken down from the journal's website.
> 
> If I remember rightly, it was announced back in 2000 or so that smallpox was now pretty much eradicated. Well, thanks to the anti-vaxxers, it might be on the way back now. What's next, polio?
> 
> ...



Measles. Measles is making a big comeback globally. My kids--who were too young to be vaccinated at the time--were exposed to it through a US family whose kids had it because they weren't vaccinated. Mine didn't catch it, but they were exposed. Somehow that seemed kind of selfish to me.

Yeah... I researched the flu shots, and the effectiveness rates just didn't seem justifiable for the fuss to me. 19-50% most years? Forget it. We'll take our chances.

Btw, the evidence is getting pretty strong that an insufficient diversity of gut bacteria may play a role in autism. The evidence is a whole lot stronger than the vaccination claim.

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## De Jager (Dec 20, 2019)

This is relevant to me as my wife is about halfway to our first....

This was so much easier when I was a baby....my parents vaccinated me and I had no say in the matter

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## KMK (Dec 20, 2019)

Edward said:


> I'll challenge that allegation.



I am also skeptical. Do you have names of actual MDs and published academic articles?


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## Susan777 (Dec 20, 2019)

KMK said:


> I am also skeptical. Do you have names of actual MDs and published academic articles?


There won’t be any published academic articles. As in anthropogenic global warming, “the science is settled”.


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## RobertPGH1981 (Dec 20, 2019)

KMK said:


> Do you have names of actual MDs and published academic articles?



So there are articles from a few scientists that can be found at the following web address. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/

Here is an example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12849883

One thing to note is that the most positive studies in the above that indicate vaccines cause autism are from scientific professionals who have been ostracized in the scientific community (ie. not considered scientists). Most scientific research comes from donations from large pharma companies who have a interest in keeping vaccines on the market. 

Interesting Research: 


Compare Autism occurrence in relation to vaccine requirements from the first diagnosis in 1943 through today and you will find dramatic increases.

First case of Autism in Japan was post WW2 in 1952 when vaccines were introduced. May be coincidence that they first classified autism around the same time it was released but its interesting to consider. 
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/a123/b574c8f1d88249d1fcbd600cd46443b5085a.pdf


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## Edward (Dec 20, 2019)

Andrew35 said:


> Btw, the evidence is getting pretty strong that an insufficient diversity of gut bacteria may play a role in autism.



So this may be the cure for those who excuse their bad behavior by claiming to be 'on the spectrum'? https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/gas...advanced_endoscopy/fecal_transplantation.html

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## Edward (Dec 20, 2019)

Nick Muyres said:


> Sherri Tenpenny is an American osteopathic physician
> Suzanna Humphries is a board-certified Medical Doctor
> Russell Blaylock is a retired neurosurgeon
> Tedd Koren is a Doctor of Chiropractic
> ...



I'll reject the natruopath and the Chiropractor out of hand. I'll look at the qualifications of the other 5.

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## Nate (Dec 20, 2019)

RobertPGH1981 said:


> So there are articles from a few scientists that can be found at the following web address. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/
> 
> Here is an example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12849883



Could you briefly interpret this article for me?

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## RobertPGH1981 (Dec 20, 2019)

Nate said:


> Could you briefly interpret this article for me?



First off I am not a doctor or scientist so I could be interrupting this incorrectly. The parallel here is that it appears that for some children the measles virus can trigger an autoimmune response that causes symptoms similar to autism. In other words, the MMR vaccine injects antibodies of the vacccine which can trigger an autoimmune response that triggers autism like symptoms. Its common for some auto-immune diseases to stay dormant in ones body and will only become active when triggered by some event. The MMR vaccine could trigger this response along with getting sick in general.


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## Nate (Dec 20, 2019)

Thanks for the quick response.



RobertPGH1981 said:


> The parallel here is that it appears that for some children the measles virus can trigger an autoimmune response that causes symptoms similar to autism.


 It seems the authors (in this paper and several other papers) have hypothesized that this is a _potential_ mechanism for the development of autism-like symptoms. They are quite clear in the paper that this is just an idea, and not something that they or others have proven by any means.



RobertPGH1981 said:


> In other words, the MMR vaccine injects antibodies of the vacccine which can trigger an autoimmune response that triggers autism like symptoms.


 Again, the authors say that their _data raise the possibility_ that, because they have an _idea _that _maybe_ MMR itself _might_ induce ASD-like symptoms, it _might _also be _possible_ that an MMR vaccine _could_ also do this. However, if you read the paper, the authors are careful to state that their experiment lacks the actual controls or experimental approaches that would lend support to these ideas.



RobertPGH1981 said:


> Its common for some auto-immune diseases to stay dormant in ones body and will only become active when triggered by some event. The MMR vaccine could trigger this response along with get sick in general.


 Yes, this is kind of what their original hypothesis states, but again, the authors are careful to say that they have not provided data to support this hypothesis, much less prove the hypothesis.

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## RobertPGH1981 (Dec 20, 2019)

Nate said:


> They are quite clear in the paper that this is just an idea, and not something that they or others have proven by any means.



Do you have access to the full research paper, or are you just referring to the abstract? It appears you have to pay for the results in this case.


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## Gesetveemet (Dec 20, 2019)

New Jersey recently voted to eliminate religious exemptions for childhood vaccines.

https://www.northjersey.com/story/n...imit-vaccine-religious-exemptions/2663862001/


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## Nate (Dec 20, 2019)

RobertPGH1981 said:


> Do you have access to the full research paper, or are you just referring to the abstract? It appears you have to pay for the results in this case.


 My comments were based on the full research paper. Unfortunately, due to copyright law, I cannot post it here. Sorry--I had thought that because you were using the article to bolster a position, you had read the article.


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## RobertPGH1981 (Dec 20, 2019)

@Nate

All of this seems like conspiracy theory stuff and trust me I felt that way myself. But I have met people who claim that the vaccine caused something in their child's personality to shift. Robert DeNiro has a son who has autism and he is pretty vocal about this himself. If you don't believe the conspiracy theory stuff you can trust DeNiro.   ( ** start at 2:14 **)


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## RobertPGH1981 (Dec 20, 2019)

Nate said:


> My comments were based on the full research paper. Unfortunately, due to copyright law, I cannot post it here. Sorry--I had thought that because you were using the article to bolster a position, you had read the article.



Unfortunately, I didn't... I had somebody pass this to me in the past and said it was true. I assumed they read it but I guess that is how some conspiracy stuff starts. Although you still have the experiences of a lot of parents including DeNiro.


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## Nate (Dec 20, 2019)

RobertPGH1981 said:


> Unfortunately, I didn't... I had somebody pass this to me in the past and said it was true. I assumed they read it but I guess that is how some conspiracy stuff starts. Although you still have the experiences of a lot of parents including DeNiro.



I was just trying to interact with a specific published reference that was used in this thread. Interacting with experiences of parents is likely outside my ken.


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## RobertPGH1981 (Dec 20, 2019)

Nate said:


> I was just trying to interact with a specific published reference that was used in this thread. Interacting with experiences of parents is likely outside my ken.



They supported various views but I lost it when I left Facebook about three months ago. This link was one that I found in some paper I wrote down when talking to somebody online. 

Check these two out if you have time since its listed in the package insert of the MMR vaccine. (https://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/m/mmr_ii/mmr_ii_pi.pdf)

Inflammatory/post-infectious encephalomyelitis https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6751212

Neurological complications of immunization.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1765651/


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## OPC'n (Dec 20, 2019)

I think the fight is in the wrong place. We should be fighting to have clean vaccines free from injurious chemicals and free from aborted fetuses even if those aborted fetuses were from many years ago.

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## earl40 (Dec 21, 2019)

I get vaccinated every year for the flu at the hospital I work at. The main reason I do is because I would have to where a mask all the time if I did not get the shoot, and I hate the smell of my breath.

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## Leslie (Dec 21, 2019)

I'm a physician, am practicing and have for the last 25 years practiced in rural southern Ethiopia. There are almost no routine immunizations; the government does respond marvelously to outbreaks, however. Immunization is messing with a person's immune system. We don't really know all the ramifications of what we are doing. 
In this area, as well as almost all rural developing areas of the world where immunizations are rare, there are almost no autoimmune diseases: I've seen 2 cases of asthma in these years, 2 cases of rheumatoid arthritis, no lupus. My view is that one should immunize against devastating diseases such as diphtheria and tetanus. One should not immunize against nuisance diseases such as chicken pox, rubella and shingles, since the gain from avoiding these diseases is small compared to the risk of developing an autoimmune condition to say nothing of autism spectrum.

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## Nate (Dec 21, 2019)

RobertPGH1981 said:


> Check these two out if you have time since its listed in the package insert of the MMR vaccine. (https://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/m/mmr_ii/mmr_ii_pi.pdf)
> 
> Inflammatory/post-infectious encephalomyelitis https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6751212
> 
> ...



Yes, these are summaries of known possible complications that can arise from vaccines. These are what others in this thread have referred to as the "slight risk" that accompanies vaccination. I am not aware of anyone who disputes these slight risks.

Reactions: Amen 1


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## RobertPGH1981 (Dec 22, 2019)

Nate said:


> These are what others in this thread have referred to as the "slight risk" that accompanies vaccination. I am not aware of anyone who disputes these slight risks.



I am wondering if the symptoms listed for the above are beng mischaracterized as Autism


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## arapahoepark (Dec 22, 2019)

Andrew35 said:


> Yeah... I researched the flu shots, and the effectiveness rates just didn't seem justifiable for the fuss to me. 19-50% most years? Forget it. We'll take our chances.


Used to be that way until it dehydrated the crap out of me one year...and my mom had a weakened immune system from chemo.


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## Cheryl Watson (Dec 23, 2019)

bookslover said:


> If I remember rightly, it was announced back in 2000 or so that smallpox was now pretty much eradicated. Well, thanks to the anti-vaxxers, it might be on the way back now. What's next, polio?



Routine vaccination for smallpox in the US ended in 1972. Anti-vaxxers would not be responsible for a resurgence of smallpox.
https://www.cdc.gov/smallpox/vaccine-basics/index.html


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## Smeagol (Dec 23, 2019)

Cheryl Watson said:


> Anti-vaxxers would not be responsible for a resurgence of smallpox.
> https://www.cdc.gov/smallpox/vaccine-basics/index.html



How so? That article does not speak of anti-Vaccine folks.

With world travel it could very well likely be the case. We also cannot ignore attempts of Bioterrorism.

https://www.cdc.gov/smallpox/vaccine-basics/who-gets-vaccination.html


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## Cheryl Watson (Dec 23, 2019)

G said:


> How so? That article does not speak of anti-Vaccine folks.
> 
> With world travel it could very well likely be the case.
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/smallpox/vaccine-basics/who-gets-vaccination.html



Because it's not a routine vaccination. Fully vaccinated children in the US will not receive the vaccine for smallpox. According to the CDC page, you only need to be vaccinated for smallpox if you are a lab worker who works with the virus or a similar virus or if there is a smallpox outbreak and you are exposed.

"*Who Should Get Vaccination*
After smallpox was eliminated from the world, routine vaccination against smallpox among the general public was stopped because it was no longer needed. However, because of concern that variola virus might be used as an agent of bioterrorism, the U.S. government has stockpiled enough smallpox vaccine to vaccinate everyone who would need it if a smallpox outbreak were to occur.

When there is *NO* smallpox outbreak, you should get the smallpox vaccine if you:


Are a lab worker who works with virus that causes smallpox or other viruses that are similar to it.
If you need long-term protection, you may need to get booster vaccinations regularly. To stay protected from smallpox, you should get booster vaccinations every 3 years.

When there *IS* a smallpox outbreak, you should get the smallpox vaccine if you:


Are directly exposed to smallpox virus. For example, if you had a prolonged face-to-face contact with someone who has smallpox.
If there is a smallpox outbreak, public health officials will say who else should get the vaccine. CDC works with federal, state, and local officials to prepare for a smallpox outbreak."


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## Nate (Dec 23, 2019)

Cheryl Watson said:


> Routine vaccination for smallpox in the US ended in 1972. Anti-vaxxers would not be responsible for a resurgence of smallpox.
> https://www.cdc.gov/smallpox/vaccine-basics/index.html



I think Cheryl is correct. Is smallpox really back on the rise? I wasn't aware that it was. If it is, I don't think it would be from the antivax movement.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Smeagol (Dec 23, 2019)

Cheryl Watson said:


> Because it's not a routine vaccination. Fully vaccinated children in the US will not receive the vaccine for smallpox. According to the CDC page, you only need to be vaccinated for smallpox if you are a lab worker who works with the virus or a similar virus or if there is a smallpox outbreak and you are exposed.
> 
> "*Who Should Get Vaccination*
> After smallpox was eliminated from the world, routine vaccination against smallpox among the general public was stopped because it was no longer needed. However, because of concern that variola virus might be used as an agent of bioterrorism, the U.S. government has stockpiled enough smallpox vaccine to vaccinate everyone who would need it if a smallpox outbreak were to occur.
> ...


Yes I read your article. Again this article does not deal with reasons people still get smallpox. So regardless if I agree with Richard or not.. I repeat myself.


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## Cheryl Watson (Dec 23, 2019)

G said:


> Yes I read your article. Again this article does not deal with reasons people still get smallpox. So regardless if I agree with Richard or not.. I repeat myself.



I'm sorry, I thought you were saying that it was spread by those who are anti-vaccine. 

I actually tried to get my older children vaccinated against smallpox and couldn't. That was quite a while ago, but it makes me wonder if one can even get vaccinated for smallpox unless you meet one of the recommended criteria.


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## Smeagol (Dec 23, 2019)

Cheryl Watson said:


> I'm sorry, I thought you were saying that it was spread by those who are anti-vaccine.
> 
> I actually tried to get my older children vaccinated against smallpox and couldn't. That was quite a while ago, but it makes me wonder if one can even get vaccinated for smallpox unless you meet one of the recommended criteria.


Don’t worry! I think we both misread each other.

I meant if the virus was introduced, it would certainly have a greater impact and spread among anti-vaccine folks. I do not think it is on the rise.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Cheryl Watson (Dec 23, 2019)

G said:


> Don’t worry! I think we both misread each other.
> 
> I meant if the virus was introduced, it would certainly have a greater impact and spread among anti-vaccine folks. I do not think it is on the rise.



Haha, I must need more caffeine ;-)

If there was an outbreak and people refused vaccination for smallpox at that time they most certainly be more affected. I used to wonder if the "stockpile" would be enough to vaccinate the US if there was a bio-terrorist attack. I certainly hope we never find out! I was born long enough ago to have received the smallpox vaccine (the only one of my siblings to receive it), though it would not doubt be quite ineffective now due the number of years since then.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Edward (Dec 23, 2019)

Cheryl Watson said:


> I used to wonder if the "stockpile" would be enough to vaccinate the US if there was a bio-terrorist attack.



No, just the ones that the 'Deep State' felt needed it. 



Cheryl Watson said:


> the U.S. government has stockpiled enough smallpox vaccine to vaccinate everyone who would need it



The elites, essential support personnel who knew their place, security, etc.


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## Cheryl Watson (Dec 23, 2019)

Edward said:


> No, just the ones that the 'Deep State' felt needed it.
> 
> 
> 
> The elites, essential support personnel who knew their place, security, etc.


Yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking, LOL.


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