# Saddleback's Ideas on Authentic Worship



## Robin (Jan 18, 2006)

*Stage Presence and Authentic Worship*

some excerpts are....

http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=9026

Rick Muchow, pastor of Saddleback worship says: The worship leader exists to help the congregation worship and guide the worship team. Stage presence during worship is very important to address. We need to teach our worship teams how to be seen in order to encourage the congregation to engage in worship. There are three core areas to focus on in addressing stage presence: 1) casting vision, 2) eliminating distractions, and 3) being authentic. 

*Cast Vision*: To address the issue of stage presence is to be clear about the purpose of our lead worshippers in congregational worship. Our role as a worship team is to _help the congregation *connect* to God_, and then stay out of their way.

.....(read the entire article)....then it concludes:

Christ's presence in someone's life will be their greatest treasure. Nothing else compares to that. An effective worship leader spends more time worshipping off the stage than on it. 

There is a great verse in The Message that helps us to focus on the motivation for being a lead worshipper. 

In 2 Cor. 3:16-18 it says, "Whenever, though, they turn to face God as Moses did, God removes the veil and there they are--face to face! They suddenly recognize that God is a living, personal presence, not a piece of chiseled stone. And when God is personally present, a living Spirit, that old, constricting legislation is recognized as obsolete. We're free of it! All of us! Nothing between us and God, our faces shining with the brightness of his face. And so we are transfigured much like the Messiah, our lives gradually becoming brighter and more beautiful as God enters our lives and we become like him."

After reading the entire article in context....what do you think about 2 Cor. 3 being about worship leaders? Is it safe to view worship leaders as helping the congregation "connect to God?"


Robin


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## Bladestunner316 (Jan 18, 2006)

It was right next to IT leader and Kool Aid attendant leader


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## Robin (Jan 18, 2006)

Dave Holden, PD pastor expounds how worship leaders are as important as pastors...

Here is the point: Powerful worship and a clear message create the perfect environment for evangelism. The closest and dearest message God can convey is of the death, burial, and resurrection of his Son. Worship and praise is the dynamic gateway to a person´s heart that *allows* Christ to enter in. 

(blah, blah...)

As a worship leader, you are a tremendous asset to your church.... *you are as important as your pastor*. That is an awesome responsibility, and God and your pastor love you for it. 

http://www.purposedriven.com/en-US/WorshipCommunity/ImplementingPD/implementingmay.htm



r.


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## Ivan (Jan 18, 2006)

> _Originally posted by trevorjohnson_
> Robin...... yikes you read a lot of Saddleback stuff! Are you alright?



I don't know about her, but I'm not!! I'm tired of this PD rot!!

Delusion, delusion!! 

I know it can't be ignored, but I'm sick and tired of churches being conned into this (stuff)!!


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## ReformedWretch (Jan 18, 2006)

I have contact with a Christian writer who is looking for anyone currently in a PD church who is at odds with the PD material. If you know anyone in this situation let me know ASAP and I will put you in touch with them. She is writing a book about the division the PD movement is causing to many churches.


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## BrianBowman (Jan 18, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Ivan_
> 
> 
> > _Originally posted by trevorjohnson_
> ...



Friends, Robin lives in So. California (the "birthplace" of PDL) and I believe that she is also a professional musician (which perhaps gives her insight into "worship styles and history" that many of us might not possess) as well as being one of the most ardent and articulate defenders of the classical Reformed Faith on this board. I'm sure she is genuinely concerned about the (often surreptitious) damage that PDL is doing to Churches, families, and individuals.

.... just my


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## Mike (Jan 18, 2006)

> _Originally posted by trevorjohnson_
> What is a worship leader?
> 
> I missed his (or her) qualifications in the Pastoral Epistles.



Worship leader is Christianese for leader of music.

Such a position seems reasonably justified by our commands to sing and our commands to do things in order. 

Whether Rick Muchow is correctly discerning the roles and duties of such a person is debatable, but from scanning through the article, it seems like he is saying mostly stuff that is pretty believable. *shrugs*

[Edited on 1-18-2006 by Mike]


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## alwaysreforming (Jan 18, 2006)

Come on people, this is good information.... very practical too, like...

"No one on stage should ever cross a camera angle while entering."

I mean, this is just basic.... this should have been learned in Theology 101.

Not to mention the makeup! Too much eye shadow is a "no-no". 

Some other things to stay away from on stage:
 Distracting hats
 Sunglasses
 Dangling jewelry
 Baldness
 Waving to your friends
 Fire-breathing, sword-swallowing, and other magic acts
 and lastly, catching up on "Day 35" in your PDL book.


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## Ivan (Jan 18, 2006)

> _Originally posted by houseparent_
> I have contact with a Christian writer who is looking for anyone currently in a PD church who is at odds with the PD material. If you know anyone in this situation let me know ASAP and I will put you in touch with them. She is writing a book about the division the PD movement is causing to many churches.



Adam, send them to this website. Lots of info on the subject at hand.

http://cicministry.org/


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## Robin (Jan 18, 2006)

> _Originally posted by alwaysreforming_
> Come on people, this is good information....very practical too, like...
> 
> I mean, this is just basic.... this should have been learned in Theology 101...not to mention ...Some other things to stay away from on stage:
> ...



this must be why Riddlebarger doesn't have cameras or a stage....???

Kim has mentioned he's lost hair due to exasperation over bad theology in the church.

[Edited on 1-19-2006 by Robin]


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## Semper Fidelis (Jan 19, 2006)

That article is sad. It sounds so much like New Age channeling to me.

This made me guffaw:


> At Saddleback, the choir wears black, and for special occasions we vary the color such as jewel tones or earth tones. As I write this, for this week's services our singers have been asked to wear solids, no jeans, casual but not too casual.


Good call. Casual but not too casual.


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## Mike (Jan 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Mike_
> from scanning through the article, it seems like he is saying mostly stuff that is pretty believable.


Read the article now. I am ammending this to "some of the stuff he is saying is reasonable."


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## Robin (Jan 19, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Ivan_
> Adam, send them to this website. Lots of info on the subject at hand.
> http://cicministry.org/



Ivan,

This is a fantastic website!! Finally, we're getting some good resources to help equip our clergy, victimized by this crud.

Trevor (I don't know if you did this or not) but I say: don't let 'em get away with the "nit-pick" accusation! Anyone proposing "new" ideas bears the responsibility to prove it (from The Text.) 

Speak the truth in love and defend the Gospel in the faithless seminary. (I'd go so far as to not pay for the class, due to "_false advertising_")

To pastors: if you guys are going to be shepherds of the Lord, you better learn how to protect the sheep from wolves AND hirelings!!

At least, that's the way I see it....



r.


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