# Tim Keller on Humility



## Jerusalem Blade

Excerpted from the CT article, "The Advent of Humility":

Grace, Not Goodness 

We are on slippery ground when we discuss humility, because religion and morality inhibit humility. It is common in the evangelical community to talk about one's worldview—a set of basic beliefs and commitments that shape the way we live in every particular. Others prefer the term "narrative identity." This is a set of answers to the questions, "Who am I? What is my life all about? What am I here for? What are the main barriers keeping me from fulfillment? How can I deal with those barriers?"

There are two basic narrative identities at work among professing Christians. The first is what I will call the moral-performance narrative identity. These are people who in their heart of hearts say, I obey; therefore I am accepted by God. The second is what I will call the grace narrative identity. This basic operating principle is, I am accepted by God through Christ; therefore I obey.

People living their lives on the basis of these two different principles may superficially look alike. They may sit right beside one another in the church pew, both striving to obey the law of God, to pray, to give money generously, to be good family members. But they are doing so out of radically different motives, in radically different spirits, resulting in radically different personal characters.

When persons living in the moral-performance narrative are criticized, they are furious or devastated because they cannot tolerate threats to their self-image of being a "good person."

But in the gospel our identity is not built on such an image, and we have the emotional ballast to handle criticism without attacking back. When people living in the moral-performance narrative base their self-worth on being hard working or theologically sound, then they must look down on those whom they perceive to be lazy or theologically weak.

But those who understand the gospel cannot possibly look down on anyone, since they were saved by sheer grace, not by their perfect doctrine or strong moral character.

The Stench of Moralism 

Another mark of the moral-performance narrative is a constant need to find fault, win arguments, and prove that all opponents are not just mistaken but dishonest sellouts. However, when the gospel is deeply grasped, our need to win arguments is removed, and our language becomes gracious. We don't have to ridicule our opponents, but instead we can engage them respectfully.

People who live in the moral-performance narrative use sarcastic, self-righteous putdown humor, or have no sense of humor at all. Lewis speaks of "the unsmiling concentration upon Self, which is the mark of hell." The gospel, however, creates a gentle sense of irony. We find a lot to laugh at, starting with our own weaknesses. They don't threaten us anymore because our ultimate worth is not based on our record or performance.

Martin Luther had the basic insight that moralism is the default mode of the human heart. Even Christians who believe the gospel of grace on one level can continue to operate as if they have been saved by their works...

-------

Check out the whole article — there's more to it.


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## Pergamum

Keller's been reading Pastor Jack and the Sonship program me thinks.


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## turmeric

I tried to link it but it won't let me without my email - I tend to boycott such things.


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## CarsonLAllen

I don't know much about Keller, but I dont' care to. I know that when it comes to "Humility" the best book I have read is "Humility" by C.J. Mahaney.

Tim's latest book "The Prodigal God" is endorsed by Billy Graham and Rick Waren. This should shoot a red flag up in the mind of any truly reformed Christian. 

I just read an article on Hell from Keller's web site. He quotes from C.S. Lewis in a religious fashion as he does all through his "Reason for God" book. I don't recall him quoting ANYTHING FROM THE WESTMINSTER CONFESSION. I think the church should stick with confessions that have stood the test of time. I would listen to Joye Pipa or the "Wild Boar Broadcast" a thousand times over before I lent my ear to one Keller message.


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## Puritan Sailor

CarsonLAllen said:


> I don't know much about Keller, but I dont' care to. I know that when it comes to "Humility" the best book I have read is "Humility" by C.J. Mahaney.
> 
> Tim's latest book "The Prodigal God" is endorsed by Billy Graham and Rick Waren. This should shoot a red flag up in the mind of any truly reformed Christian.
> 
> I just read an article on Hell from Keller's web site. He quotes from C.S. Lewis in a religious fashion as he does all through his "Reason for God" book. I don't recall him quoting ANYTHING FROM THE WESTMINSTER CONFESSION. I think the church should stick with confessions that have stood the test of time. I would listen to Joye Pipa or the "Wild Boar Broadcast" a thousand times over before I lent my ear to one Keller message.



Then you are missing out on a gifted preacher and communicator of the gospel. He has his faults for sure, but I've found him extremely helpful in understanding and explaining the gospel. You should listen to a sermon or two before you write him off. 

And before you criticize his lack of confessional quotations, you need to understand who he is trying to reach, secular people who have no familiarity with the Confessions, or biblical Christianity for that matter. They don't even have the basic categories for understanding the Confessions. Keep the man in context and judge him fairly, as you would like to be judged.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Puritan Sailor said:


> ...You should listen to a sermon or two before you write him off...



Of course he would have to pay for such a privilege...


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## Barnpreacher

Puritan Sailor said:


> CarsonLAllen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know much about Keller, but I dont' care to. I know that when it comes to "Humility" the best book I have read is "Humility" by C.J. Mahaney.
> 
> Tim's latest book "The Prodigal God" is endorsed by Billy Graham and Rick Waren. This should shoot a red flag up in the mind of any truly reformed Christian.
> 
> I just read an article on Hell from Keller's web site. He quotes from C.S. Lewis in a religious fashion as he does all through his "Reason for God" book. I don't recall him quoting ANYTHING FROM THE WESTMINSTER CONFESSION. I think the church should stick with confessions that have stood the test of time. I would listen to Joye Pipa or the "Wild Boar Broadcast" a thousand times over before I lent my ear to one Keller message.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then you are missing out on a gifted preacher and communicator of the gospel. He has his faults for sure, but I've found him extremely helpful in understanding and explaining the gospel. You should listen to a sermon or two before you write him off.
> 
> And before you criticize his lack of confessional quotations, you need to understand who he is trying to reach, secular people who have no familiarity with the Confessions, or biblical Christianity for that matter. They don't even have the basic categories for understanding the Confessions. Keep the man in context and judge him fairly, as you would like to be judged.
Click to expand...


Very well said, Patrick!


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## Semper Fidelis

Thank you for posting this. We all need to be reminded of this.

I particularly like the way he put this:


Jerusalem Blade said:


> When persons living in the moral-performance narrative are criticized, they are furious or devastated because they cannot tolerate threats to their self-image of being a "good person."



I tend to be pretty self-deprecating. I know that doesn't sound humble but I'm only bringing it up because I'm always a bit surprised when I run into people that are really offended when you mention that they sinned. I make a habit of repenting because I can't stand not to but I've been surprised by people that are unwilling or offended by the notion.

During a committee meeting at a previous Church, one of the ladies had dug up some really bad articles on Calvinism. She knew that one of the candidates we were discussing was a Calvinist and, without even a shred of evidence (except for an article with all the most reprehensible mischaracterizations of Calvinists) she was accusing this candidat of the most monstrous things. The thing is, she hadn't asked him any of the things she accused him of when she had the chance. She waited until he was off the phone and then claimed he didn't believe in the open offer of the Gospel and that (like every Calvinist) was secretly interested in destroying Baptist Churches.

At one point, I finally told her that she was violating the 9th Commandment and _she went through the roof_. She was doing the Lord's work after all and had been a Baptist for 40 years and this was the Baptist way. She was a missionary in a foreign country to boot so there's no possible way that she could have had any guile.

That experience sticks with me and reminds me why the Gospel is so important because the variants that are out there today are really feeding the mindset that people are accepted by God because they are holy. In fact, many Roman Catholics have a higher view of the need for grace these days than Evangelicals I run across.


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## Barnpreacher

CarsonLAllen said:


> I don't know much about Keller, but I dont' care to. I know that when it comes to "Humility" the best book I have read is "Humility" by C.J. Mahaney.
> 
> Tim's latest book "The Prodigal God" is endorsed by Billy Graham and Rick Waren. This should shoot a red flag up in the mind of any truly reformed Christian.
> 
> I just read an article on Hell from Keller's web site. He quotes from C.S. Lewis in a religious fashion as he does all through his "Reason for God" book. I don't recall him quoting ANYTHING FROM THE WESTMINSTER CONFESSION. I think the church should stick with confessions that have stood the test of time. I would listen to Joye Pipa or the "Wild Boar Broadcast" a thousand times over before I lent my ear to one Keller message.



I find this post troubling. You admit that you have never "lent your ear to one Keller message" then how can you pass judgment on him? What if Rick Warren came into my house and after observing things said that he endorses the way I am raising my family. Would you assume then that I was really a lousy father because Rick Warren endorsed me?

Are you also assuming that Keller is unconfessional by stating you can never recall him quoting anything from the Westminster Confession? I would say that is a pretty large assumption.

I understand Keller isn't a fan fave of everyone on here, but to pass judgment on the man and his ministry without knowing the facts and based upon an endorsement or two seems like the wrong thing to do.


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## turmeric

I gotta watch that problem myself.


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## Puritan Sailor

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Puritan Sailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...You should listen to a sermon or two before you write him off...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course he would have to pay for such a privilege...
Click to expand...


Redeemer Sermon Store: Free Sermons


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Stand corrected...


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## Hilasmos

Barnpreacher said:


> CarsonLAllen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know much about Keller, but I dont' care to. I know that when it comes to "Humility" the best book I have read is "Humility" by C.J. Mahaney.
> 
> Tim's latest book "The Prodigal God" is endorsed by Billy Graham and Rick Waren. This should shoot a red flag up in the mind of any truly reformed Christian.
> 
> I just read an article on Hell from Keller's web site. He quotes from C.S. Lewis in a religious fashion as he does all through his "Reason for God" book. I don't recall him quoting ANYTHING FROM THE WESTMINSTER CONFESSION. I think the church should stick with confessions that have stood the test of time. I would listen to Joye Pipa or the "Wild Boar Broadcast" a thousand times over before I lent my ear to one Keller message.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find this post troubling. You admit that you have never "lent your ear to one Keller message" then how can you pass judgment on him? What if Rick Warren came into my house and after observing things said that he endorses the way I am raising my family. Would you assume then that I was really a lousy father because Rick Warren endorsed me?
> 
> Are you also assuming that Keller is unconfessional by stating you can never recall him quoting anything from the Westminster Confession? I would say that is a pretty large assumption.
> 
> I understand Keller isn't a fan fave of everyone on here, but to pass judgment on the man and his ministry without knowing the facts and based upon an endorsement or two seems like the wrong thing to do.
Click to expand...


When I picked up his "Reason for God" i was troubled by the Warren/Graham endorsements, and if I hadn't already listened to a few hours of his lectures becoming familiar with him, I wouldn't have purchased the book for that reason (probably). I would be interested to know the reasoning behind such endorsements, as it seems J.I. Packer is quick to sign, why not go in that direction? Perhaps, as was stated, it has something to do with his cultural context. 

I have found Keller very insightful.


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## ColdSilverMoon

CarsonLAllen said:


> I don't know much about Keller, but I dont' care to. I know that when it comes to "Humility" the best book I have read is "Humility" by C.J. Mahaney.
> 
> Tim's latest book "The Prodigal God" is endorsed by Billy Graham and Rick Waren. This should shoot a red flag up in the mind of any truly reformed Christian.
> 
> I just read an article on Hell from Keller's web site. He quotes from C.S. Lewis in a religious fashion as he does all through his "Reason for God" book. I don't recall him quoting ANYTHING FROM THE WESTMINSTER CONFESSION. I think the church should stick with confessions that have stood the test of time. I would listen to Joye Pipa or the "Wild Boar Broadcast" a thousand times over before I lent my ear to one Keller message.



I won't re-iterate what others have said about this already, but I will add that the Rick Warren/Billy Graham endorsements are probably more a function of the publisher wanting to get notable endorsements than anything else. And to reject a book simply because Warren and Graham endorse it is absurd. 

Also, _The Reason for God_ is aimed at secularist intellectuals and skeptics, not at believers. Most of those people have at least heard of C.S. Lewis, but few if any have heard of the Confessions. Lewis was no theologian, but he was a solid apologist, hence quoting him in an apologetics book is appropriate. If you listen to Keller's sermons, as I do on a weekly basis as a Redeemer member, you will find he quotes Edwards, Augustine, Owen, and to a lesser extent Calvin as much as anyone. I personally believe he is one of the top 3 expository teachers in America today. 

Finally, I don't agree with Keller on hell either, particularly his concept of it being a "door locked from within." But I agree with 90% of what he says, and all of the essentials. And I disagree with all of the great theologians on at least one minor thing. To reject him entirely because of secondary issues is your loss....


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## Archlute

There is no need to dogpile Carson. Keller's ministry has a number of problems, and there should be no reason to act as if they do not exist. The fact that he is enthusiastic about C.S. Lewis and the grace of the Gospel should not then become a shield for some of his shoddier interpretive practices (which then, unfortunately hold great sway in the PCA), nor cause some of the ecclesiastical and confessional disregard that goes on at Redeemer to be deemed unimportant.

That being said, Keller does have some good things to say on occasion.


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## Barnpreacher

Archlute said:


> There is no need to dogpile Carson. Keller's ministry has a number of problems, and there should be no reason to act as if they do not exist. The fact that he is enthusiastic about C.S. Lewis and the grace of the Gospel should not then become a shield for some of his shoddier interpretive practices (which then, unfortunately hold great sway in the PCA), nor cause some of the ecclesiastical and confessional disregard that goes on at Redeemer to be deemed unimportant.
> 
> That being said, Keller does have some good things to say on occasion.



Adam,

I don't think it was anyone's intention to "dogpile" Carson. And no one has posted and acted as if Keller didn't have his problems. You and I have our problems as well. Let's not forget that.

What I found troubling was the reason why some pass judgment on Keller without really knowing how he stands on key issues. You don't have to agree with him on everything, but to write him off because of a few endorsements and a lack of quoting the Confessions in one book is silly (Mason pointed out why he did this in a post above).

I guess it's those "occasions" when Keller says some good things that keeps me listening and reading. I should hope people could say the same about my ministry.

Blessings.


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## mvdm

God has given him a high-profile pulpit. With that comes a great responsibility. I would hope Keller recognizes that what is beneficial for his congregation {exposing them to Reformed theology, Edwards, etc.} is likewise beneficial for the rest of the "audiences" he wishes to reach.


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## PresbyDane




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## CarsonLAllen

> And before you criticize his lack of confessional quotations, you need to understand who he is trying to reach, secular people who have no familiarity with the Confessions, or biblical Christianity for that matter. They don't even have the basic categories for understanding the Confessions. Keep the man in context and judge him fairly, as you would like to be judged.



Yes, I would hope that someone would judge me fairly. I am not trying to judge him unfairly. As far as keeping him the context of “reaching the unbelievers” I think I grasp the context. Here is an answer that Keller gave to Anthony Sacramone, managing editor of First Things. When asked about his church.

“We’re trying to speak in a way that doesn’t confuse or turn off nonbelievers.”

It seams to me that the premise is building the “Church” around nonbelievers. Please correct me if I am wrong. 

I have been involved with street ministry and door to door evangelism in my community for over ten years, and I can tell you it doesn’t take much to confuse or turn off a non believing Christ hater. Just simply tell them that Jesus is the only way to salvation is enough to get you thrown of the front porch.


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## ChristianTrader

CarsonLAllen said:


> And before you criticize his lack of confessional quotations, you need to understand who he is trying to reach, secular people who have no familiarity with the Confessions, or biblical Christianity for that matter. They don't even have the basic categories for understanding the Confessions. Keep the man in context and judge him fairly, as you would like to be judged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I would hope that someone would judge me fairly. I am not trying to judge him unfairly. As far as keeping him the context of “reaching the unbelievers” I think I grasp the context. Here is an answer that Keller gave to Anthony Sacramone, managing editor of First Things. When asked about his church.
> 
> “We’re trying to speak in a way that doesn’t confuse or turn off nonbelievers.”
> 
> It seams to me that the premise is building the “Church” around nonbelievers. Please correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> I have been involved with street ministry and door to door evangelism in my community for over ten years, and I can tell you it doesn’t take much to confuse or turn off a non believing Christ hater. Just simply tell them that Jesus is the only way to salvation is enough to get you thrown of the front porch.
Click to expand...


If you do not want to judge him unfairly, then read his book on evangelism (the Reason for God) or his new book on the Prodigal God, then say what you will about it. I am not sure how you can be fair, by rejecting any position/book of his without reading it.

CT


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## CDM

Barnpreacher said:


> CarsonLAllen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know much about Keller, but I dont' care to. I know that when it comes to "Humility" the best book I have read is "Humility" by C.J. Mahaney.
> 
> Tim's latest book "The Prodigal God" is endorsed by Billy Graham and Rick Waren. This should shoot a red flag up in the mind of any truly reformed Christian.
> 
> I just read an article on Hell from Keller's web site. He quotes from C.S. Lewis in a religious fashion as he does all through his "Reason for God" book. I don't recall him quoting ANYTHING FROM THE WESTMINSTER CONFESSION. I think the church should stick with confessions that have stood the test of time. I would listen to Joye Pipa or the "Wild Boar Broadcast" a thousand times over before I lent my ear to one Keller message.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find this post troubling. You admit that you have never "lent your ear to one Keller message" then how can you pass judgment on him? What if Rick Warren came into my house and after observing things said that he endorses the way I am raising my family. Would you assume then that I was really a lousy father because Rick Warren endorsed me?
> 
> Are you also assuming that Keller is unconfessional by stating you can never recall him quoting anything from the Westminster Confession? I would say that is a pretty large assumption.
> 
> I understand Keller isn't a fan fave of everyone on here, but to pass judgment on the man and his ministry without knowing the facts and based upon an endorsement or two seems like the wrong thing to do.
Click to expand...


While ducking the crossfire, I have no dog in this hunt, maybe CarsonLAllen's just saying there is much material available that a Christian could / ought spend his time on other than Keller...

...such as the Puritans.


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## CarsonLAllen

*Barnpreacher*



> I find this post troubling. You admit that you have never "lent your ear to one Keller message" then how can you pass judgment on him?



I have never heard him preach, but I have read articles and interviews in magazines. I have also had conversations with a Godly brother who has read his book. A brother that I love and trust. 



> . You don't have to agree with him on everything, but to write him off because of a few endorsements and a lack of quoting the Confessions in one book is silly (Mason pointed out why he did this in a post above).



If you want to JUDGE me as being silly, so be it. Your telling me that I can't make a discernment based on an endorsement by Rick Waren or Billy Graham. I wonder if Dr. McMahon would let them endorse one of his books.

*Christian Trader*



> If you do not want to judge him unfairly, then read his book on evangelism (the Reason for God) or his new book on the Prodigal God, then say what you will about it. I am not sure how you can be fair, by rejecting any position/book of his without reading it.



I am not writing a critique of his books. I simply stated that I don't think he is aas confessional as Pipa, which I have heard from P.C.A. Pastors myself. I can't make a judgment based on his quote“We’re trying to speak in a way that doesn’t confuse or turn off nonbelievers.”

Do I have to read Arminius’s entire three volumes before I judge him fairly?

*Mangum* That is what I was trying to communicate.


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## ChristianTrader

mangum said:


> Barnpreacher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CarsonLAllen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know much about Keller, but I dont' care to. I know that when it comes to "Humility" the best book I have read is "Humility" by C.J. Mahaney.
> 
> Tim's latest book "The Prodigal God" is endorsed by Billy Graham and Rick Waren. This should shoot a red flag up in the mind of any truly reformed Christian.
> 
> I just read an article on Hell from Keller's web site. He quotes from C.S. Lewis in a religious fashion as he does all through his "Reason for God" book. I don't recall him quoting ANYTHING FROM THE WESTMINSTER CONFESSION. I think the church should stick with confessions that have stood the test of time. I would listen to Joye Pipa or the "Wild Boar Broadcast" a thousand times over before I lent my ear to one Keller message.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find this post troubling. You admit that you have never "lent your ear to one Keller message" then how can you pass judgment on him? What if Rick Warren came into my house and after observing things said that he endorses the way I am raising my family. Would you assume then that I was really a lousy father because Rick Warren endorsed me?
> 
> Are you also assuming that Keller is unconfessional by stating you can never recall him quoting anything from the Westminster Confession? I would say that is a pretty large assumption.
> 
> I understand Keller isn't a fan fave of everyone on here, but to pass judgment on the man and his ministry without knowing the facts and based upon an endorsement or two seems like the wrong thing to do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> While ducking the crossfire, I have no dog in this hunt, maybe CarsonLAllen's just saying there is much material available that a Christian could / ought spend his time on other than Keller...
> 
> ...such as the Puritans.
Click to expand...


If that was the case, then why recommend Mahaney on humility? 

Is this not akin to saying avoid Baxter on anything because of the issues with his view of Justification?

CT


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## CDM

ChristianTrader said:


> mangum said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Barnpreacher said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find this post troubling. You admit that you have never "lent your ear to one Keller message" then how can you pass judgment on him? What if Rick Warren came into my house and after observing things said that he endorses the way I am raising my family. Would you assume then that I was really a lousy father because Rick Warren endorsed me?
> 
> Are you also assuming that Keller is unconfessional by stating you can never recall him quoting anything from the Westminster Confession? I would say that is a pretty large assumption.
> 
> I understand Keller isn't a fan fave of everyone on here, but to pass judgment on the man and his ministry without knowing the facts and based upon an endorsement or two seems like the wrong thing to do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While ducking the crossfire, I have no dog in this hunt, maybe CarsonLAllen's just saying there is much material available that a Christian could / ought spend his time on other than Keller...
> 
> ...such as the Puritans.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If that was the case, then why recommend Mahaney on humility?
> 
> Is this not akin to saying avoid Baxter on anything because of the issues with his view of Justification?
> 
> CT
Click to expand...




> If that was the case, then why recommend Mahaney on humility?


 Because he thinks a Mahaney is better than a Keller. I simply suggested the Puritans would be better and more profitable reading than one like Keller.


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## Semper Fidelis

Ahem! With all that off our chest, may I humbly submit that we interact with the article.


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## Puritan Sailor

CarsonLAllen said:


> And before you criticize his lack of confessional quotations, you need to understand who he is trying to reach, secular people who have no familiarity with the Confessions, or biblical Christianity for that matter. They don't even have the basic categories for understanding the Confessions. Keep the man in context and judge him fairly, as you would like to be judged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I would hope that someone would judge me fairly. I am not trying to judge him unfairly. As far as keeping him the context of “reaching the unbelievers” I think I grasp the context. Here is an answer that Keller gave to Anthony Sacramone, managing editor of First Things. When asked about his church.
> 
> “We’re trying to speak in a way that doesn’t confuse or turn off nonbelievers.”
> 
> It seams to me that the premise is building the “Church” around nonbelievers. Please correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> I have been involved with street ministry and door to door evangelism in my community for over ten years, and I can tell you it doesn’t take much to confuse or turn off a non believing Christ hater. Just simply tell them that Jesus is the only way to salvation is enough to get you thrown of the front porch.
Click to expand...


I don't think he is building the Church around unbelievers. I think he is mission minded. If you are not making a concerted effort to reach out to unbelievers in a language they can understand (just like any foreign missionary), then all you will be doing is preaching to the Reformed choir, and alienating the very people you are trying to reach. The true offensiveness of the gospel will not hit them unless we speak in their language. So we must do our part to show the beauty and attractiveness of Christ in terms unbelievers can understand. I think Keller does a great job at this. 

Once you get them to understand the basic categories of salvation, then you can introduce them to the more advanced teachings in our Confessions (as discipleship). There's a reason only office bearers are required to subscribe to the Confessions. 

Like I said, he has his faults in other areas, but there is alot we can learn from his ability to show the emptiness of the secular worldview, and to explain the gospel in very concrete understandable terms. I'm a full subscriptionist when it comes to our Confessions, and all of that doctrine is the foundation for everything I try to say, but I'm not going to use that technical language in evangelism or apologetics with people unfamiliar with Christianity.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

That should be "_in Presbyterian Polity_ only Office Bearers are required to subscribe to the Confessions."


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## CarsonLAllen

Fair enough


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## Romans922

Martin Marsh said:


>



Oh popcorn sounds good.


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## Barnpreacher

CarsonLAllen said:


> If you want to JUDGE me as being silly, so be it. Your telling me that I can't make a discernment based on an endorsement by Rick Waren or Billy Graham. I wonder if Dr. McMahon would let them endorse one of his books.



I wasn't trying to judge you, brother. I wasn't calling you silly, just your statement. Silly was a poor choice of words. I apologize for offending you. I didn't mean to tell you that you couldn't make a discernment based on an endorsement. I just think you're really missing out on a gifted teacher by these discernments. 

These kind of threads go nowhere fast because it usually pits one side who has found a contemporary minister helpful against those who haven't found him so helpful. Neither side is going to budge, and it usually winds up getting the thread off topic from the OP. To this I have contributed enough and I apologize to brother. Steve for my part in the distraction from his OP.

Blessings!


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## Theognome

This article is the only exposure to Tim Keller I have ever had, so I will take the article at face value.

It may be a nice, 'feel good' paper that can sooth some and edify others in Christ, but it is not good theology. 



> We are on slippery ground when we discuss humility, because religion and morality inhibit humility. It is common in the evangelical community to talk about one's worldview—a set of basic beliefs and commitments that shape the way we live in every particular. Others prefer the term "narrative identity." This is a set of answers to the questions, "Who am I? What is my life all about? What am I here for? What are the main barriers keeping me from fulfillment? How can I deal with those barriers?"
> 
> There are two basic narrative identities at work among professing Christians. The first is what I will call the moral-performance narrative identity. These are people who in their heart of hearts say, I obey; therefore I am accepted by God. The second is what I will call the grace narrative identity. This basic operating principle is, I am accepted by God through Christ; therefore I obey.



Based on his definition of a narrative identity, logic and reality demands that there are more than two- Tertium Quid. Applying his definition (regarding life answers), a guilt identity (accepted by god through Christ; yet I do not obey) would demonstrate all of the redeeming qualities that he preaches and yet for the wrong reasons. 

But the real problem is the scope of empirical facts with lack of biblical argument. He mentions some scriptures that very broadly define humility (Matt. 11:29, Matt. 5:3, 5; 18:3-4 Phil. 2:8-9 Luke 14:11; 18:14; 1 Pet. 5:5) in shotgun fashion and then spins into 2 1/2 pages of specific examples that are begging for biblical reference. The mystery of humility that he tries to build (with statements such as _Humility is so shy. If you begin talking about it, it leaves._ and the like) does not exist in scripture. The word of God gives many examples of how to guard our hearts, but proof texts for his whole narrative identity will take some digging to find.

I suspect he won't bother to find some references. The bulk of this article is new age parapsychology for the devout evangelical and would be difficult to justify through solid exegesis. However, as long as it tells people to look to Christ, the modern devout evangelical will eat this stuff up. 

This does not appear to be an author that I would seek out.

Theognome


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## CarsonLAllen

No hard feelings here barnpreacher

I would also like to apologize to Jerusalem Blade for taking his post way off comment. I will try not do that to anyone else on this board.

Blessings


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## Jerusalem Blade

Some thoughts on the remarks:

If you wrote a book, would you have a problem charging for it? What's wrong with charging $2.50 for an mp3 of a sermon, when the money goes into ministries and church plants? You don't have to pay to attend Redeemer and hear the preaching! We pay big bucks for books, computers and accessories, TVs, movies, cell phones — we pay for what is important to us.

Who picks the blurbs that adorn books, the author or the publishers? 

I heard the "Satanic Church" uses Apple computers — is there guilt by association through products, including books?

Carson, I appreciate your caution – certainly a necessary virtue these days when the antichrist spirit pours into "christendom" like a flood! Nor am I a fan of C.S. Lewis, though Keller does quote him to great purpose and relevance. Tim was my (and my wife's) pastor the 5 or so years I was in NYC till mid '02, so I know his mind and heart well. I have challenged him – during the Q&As he has after sermons, and by email – on points I disagreed with, and found him genuinely willing to consider differing views.

But as regards the "flood" and the standard "the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up against" this spiritual enemy (Isa 59:19), what is that Standard? Is it not the Gospel of Jesus Christ? One of Tim's emphases is that the religious need the gospel as badly as the irreligious (as Rich pointed out above in his anecdote). There are many emotionally and spiritually unhealthy believers in the Lord's fold, and one purpose of ministry is the edifying of the saints and bringing them to maturity – that is, genuine godliness.

I think it was Luther who made the statement that we – believers – are _simil iustus et peccator_, we are sinners and yet righteous before God at the same time, because of Christ's dying in our stead, the cleansing of His blood, and God's imputing His righteousness to us.

If I know the "remaining corruption" that continues to dwell in me – and shall till I throw off these mortal coils – I will have reason to grieve and mourn my unworthiness, and the wretchedness my self-aggrandizing and self-loving flesh brings into my heart and life on an almost daily basis. I live before the holy One of Israel, all too conscious of this unworthiness, and yet I find I am loved even so, and this transforms a wretch into a heart glowing with gratitude, affection, and joy. Christ's is a love that transforms. Transforms the darkest heart into a child of light.

Keller's understanding of the Gospel is informed by Puritan spirituality, mixed with an almost Dostoevskian – yet eminently contemporary – comprehension of the human heart and its labyrinthine ways and complexities.

His view of the Gospel is the very heart of Tim's ministry. He often says, "The Gospel is, we are more wicked than we ever dared think, and more loved than we ever dared hope – at the same time!" 

This profound self-knowledge engenders in me a humility before, not only my brothers and sisters, but unbelievers. If I know what I am truly made of – as pertains to my flesh, which I carry with me – I will not look down on others, whether they be believers whom I think not quite on track, or unbelievers walking in open ungodliness, for I know my own wretchedness. This is humility, this not thinking myself better (Phil 2:3; Ro 12:10). And yet, in the presence of Him who loved me while I was in rank ungodliness (Ro 5:8), and actually regenerated and justified me while dead in this sin (Ro 4:5; Eph 2:4, 5), my heart sings with joy and love to this God who redeemed such a one, transforming him into a creature "holy and beloved" (Col 3:12). Humility toward men, boldness and joy toward God.

Sitting five years under this vision of the gospel through the preaching and teaching of Keller has given me the Scriptural tools to stand rooted in the love of Christ, come famine, affliction, persecution – whatever storms or trouble He in His wise and loving providence sends my way.

------



> "...new age parapsychology for the devout evangelical..."?



From the New Age / Theosophy / occult paths I came some 40+ years ago, and I do not discern Keller in this camp at all. I have stood against two Christian psychologists / Biblical counselors – treating someone I cared for – who operated from a secular counseling paradigm, and I am informed as to varieties of psychobabble and New Age. I beg to strongly differ with this "discernment"! 

As mentioned above, Tim is not perfect, but he does have a Pearl of great price.

But this was meant to be a devotional forum! On humility! Well, I trust the Shepherd will get us into shape before the great Wedding Feast, for He doeth all things well!


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## Pergamum

Keller I think reads Pastor Jack and Sonship....which is not New Age. I like Keller and I generally like the Sonship materials and think a lot of people could profit from hearing more Keller and even more Sonship.


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## py3ak

CarsonLAllen said:


> I don't know much about Keller, but I dont' care to. I know that when it comes to "Humility" the best book I have read is "Humility" by C.J. Mahaney.
> 
> Tim's latest book "The Prodigal God" is endorsed by Billy Graham and Rick Waren. This should shoot a red flag up in the mind of any truly reformed Christian.
> 
> I just read an article on Hell from Keller's web site. He quotes from C.S. Lewis in a religious fashion as he does all through his "Reason for God" book. I don't recall him quoting ANYTHING FROM THE WESTMINSTER CONFESSION. I think the church should stick with confessions that have stood the test of time. I would listen to Joye Pipa or the "Wild Boar Broadcast" a thousand times over before I lent my ear to one Keller message.



Proverbs 18:13
He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.


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## Craig

Unfortunately, I cannot read that article as if it was a "stand-alone" item...when Keller says things about moralism, I can't help but think he means something different than most PB members would mean it...after all, abortion is certainly not a topic that would ever arise in his sermons...that's something "moral majority" type fundamentalist Pharisees would harp on. He caters to the intellectual and affluent...and he doesn't preach at the idols of their hearts...instead, he perpetuates a stereo-type about "religious types". 

If I could read the article "as is", and knew nothing of his ministry...it would be fine. Bland, but fine. But I question whether he preaches a gospel that Jesus would preach. I tend to think his gospel speaks with a lisp and has no teeth...I tend to think that is why the leadership of his church is dominated by women...I found this comment on the Bayly Blog insightful when someone mentioned Keller's article:


> would humility extend to responding to ministers in the same communion to whom you've vowed to submit? Could it be that being a churchman is humble, not writing articles about humility for CT?


The Gospel of Jesus is not good news without the Law...and Tim Keller, in reaching out to the impoverished hearts of the affluent, avoids the very idols Paul would be up in arms about...nothing about abortion, nothing about feminism/egalitarianism...these are part and parcel of the idols of our culture and it is here that silence echoes throughout "Redeemer".

The prophet Amos, Tim Keller is not.


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## ColdSilverMoon

Craig said:


> Unfortunately, I cannot read that article as if it was a "stand-alone" item...when Keller says things about moralism, I can't help but think he means something different than most PB members would mean it...after all, abortion is certainly not a topic that would ever arise in his sermons...that's something "moral majority" type fundamentalist Pharisees would harp on. He caters to the intellectual and affluent...and he doesn't preach at the idols of their hearts...instead, he perpetuates a stereo-type about "religious types".
> 
> If I could read the article "as is", and knew nothing of his ministry...it would be fine. Bland, but fine. But I question whether he preaches a gospel that Jesus would preach. I tend to think his gospel speaks with a lisp and has no teeth...I tend to think that is why the leadership of his church is dominated by women...I found this comment on the Bayly Blog insightful when someone mentioned Keller's article:
> 
> 
> 
> would humility extend to responding to ministers in the same communion to whom you've vowed to submit? Could it be that being a churchman is humble, not writing articles about humility for CT?
> 
> 
> 
> The Gospel of Jesus is not good news without the Law...and Tim Keller, in reaching out to the impoverished hearts of the affluent, avoids the very idols Paul would be up in arms about...nothing about abortion, nothing about feminism/egalitarianism...these are part and parcel of the idols of our culture and it is here that silence echoes throughout "Redeemer".
> 
> The prophet Amos, Tim Keller is not.
Click to expand...


It just so happens that in a sermon 4 weeks ago (on Genesis 1 and the image of God) he strongly condemned abortion and said as a church Redeemer must always solidly oppose it. He has always been against abortion and has been very clear on that. In a sermon on Jesus and politics he noted that abortion was strongly condemned by the early church and should be condemned by us today. 

The link to the sermon is below. If you don't want to pay the $2.50 I'll gladly pay it for you (not being snarky or condescending - seriously, I'll foot the bill on this one). With all due respect, making a statement that "abortion is certainly not a topic that would ever arise in his sermons" is uninformed, divisive, and simply not true. This is exactly the type of unfair criticism, especially coming from a fellow PCA pastor, I find so perplexing.

Redeemer Sermon Store: In the Image of God


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## Jerusalem Blade

When it is said,

Keller "caters to the intellectual and affluent...and he doesn't preach at the idols of their hearts...instead, he perpetuates a stereo-type about 'religious types'..."​
this is simply not so, as one who was familiar with Tim's sermons over the years would know. Another of his primary emphases is particularly "idols of the heart," and he uses the razor-edged scalpel of the Word in preaching on this — regularly! Another of his topics is "the sin beneath the sins", that is, those underlying motives that guide our behavior, in short – deeply-rooted idols!

Re perpetuating the "stereotype" mentioned above, that is _another_ bearing false witness! It simply isn't so.

Re "...the leadership of his church is dominated by women" – if you're talking about administrative positions (it's a large church, with many ministries and programs), and _not_ church leadership / office, this is not unbiblical. All administrators, male and female, are under the supervision and authority of pastors.

When it is averred, Keller says "nothing about abortion, nothing about feminism/egalitarianism...these are part and parcel of the idols of our culture and it is here that silence echoes throughout 'Redeemer'...", I wonder how one can make such statements, which are so contrary to fact.

Mason (ColdSilverMoon) already answered about abortion; feminism and egalitarianism are _strongly_ addressed, as one might expect in such a place as NYC, in a ministry directed toward young professionals, artists, educators, and such. Kathy Keller (Tim's wife) has ministered long to the women of Redeemer on such issues, and upholds the Biblical standards. As a result, many "evangelical feminists" have left Redeemer over their stance.

There are indeed some affluent among the congregations (as Tim preaches sometimes 4 or 5 times a Lord's Day in the different services and church plants in Manhattan), but Keller makes an issue of money and its tendency to become a great idol (and the underlying idol of what is our security). Consequently, Redeemer's _ministries of mercy_ (which is the title of another of his books, as is _Resources for Deacons_) are well-funded and highly effective. Nothing wrong with wealth if it is used to the glory of God and the good of the poor and suffering! There are also many poor and "marginalized" who belong to Redeemer. The Deacon's Fund has helped multitudes who have found themselves jobless (as now) or otherwise financially stricken.

Very few preachers have the ability to minister to professionals, artists-writers-educators etc of the middle and upper-middle classes, but the love of Christ has won great multitudes of this demographic of New York City's people, and they are in positions to affect the culture of the city itself. And they are, as Tim enjoins them to be, radically generous with their time, energy, and money. Yes, there are those who prefer a simpler presentation of the gospel, and there are church plants with other pastors who have excellent though differing gifts available for such.

To say that Keller does not preach the Law – that it is not implicit (and explicit) in his sermons – simply does not know his sermons.

But after all, even though I am of a mind to defend a man who has been my pastor, and whom I love, attention should not be drawn to a man – a servant – and away from the Master, the "King of saints" (Rev 15:3 AV), who created Tim Keller and all of us who name His name, to His everlasting glory and joy. Yes, the Son of God joys in us, His wondrous bride:

The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing. (Zephaniah 3:17)​
To have our Husband and Savior sing His love songs to us when we are all safely in the Kingdom – imagine how our hearts will burn with love and joy! For who can sing and move the heart like our Jesus, the eternal One!

------

P.S. If a moderator would kindly shut this thread – it keeps getting too far from the OP. Thanks!


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