# Does John Teach a distinction between the church and Israel?



## no1special18 (Apr 6, 2006)

How do covenant theologians typically understand the lady, the child, and the children in Revelation. The lady and the child the beast failed to make war with, but not the children. It seems obvious that the child is Christ, but if the lady is Israel, and the beast could not make war on her, but could on the children (are they the church?) then that would seem to show discontinuity between Israel and the church. I am not arguing against covenant theology (I believe it is quite clear in the Scriptures) I just want to know how you guys think one should understand the lady, the child, and the children found in Revelation.


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## no1special18 (Apr 6, 2006)

I think I failed to make title eye catching.


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## Scott (Apr 12, 2006)

In Galatians 4 Paul refers to the Jerusalem that is above and "she is our mother." Hebrews 12:22-23 identifies the heavenly Jerusalem with the Church. So you see a division there, the heavenly mother (the church) and her children, the individual members of the church. Even though the members of the church can rightly be called children of mother church, we know that the church is made up of her various individuals.

You could say the same for other organizations. For example, when Iraqis attacked American soldiers you could say (1) Iraq attacked America, or (2) Iraq attacked America's sons and daughters. It means the same thing, even though America is made up of her sons and daughters.

[Edited on 4-12-2006 by Scott]


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## DTK (Apr 12, 2006)

> _Originally posted by no1special18_
> How do covenant theologians typically understand the lady, the child, and the children in Revelation. The lady and the child the beast failed to make war with, but not the children. It seems obvious that the child is Christ, but if the lady is Israel, and the beast could not make war on her, but could on the children (are they the church?) then that would seem to show discontinuity between Israel and the church. I am not arguing against covenant theology (I believe it is quite clear in the Scriptures) I just want to know how you guys think one should understand the lady, the child, and the children found in Revelation.


Since your question is an inquiry regarding a certain aspect of the theology of the fourth evangelist, I think it would be helpful to look elsewhere in clearer expressions of Johannine literature to discern your answer before going to his apocalyptic work in the Book of the Revelation. The prophecy given through the high priest Caiaphas is quite revealing when we consider the Johannine editorial remark that follows it...


> John 11:51-52
> 51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.


It is clear that John believed all the children of God were to be gathered together "in one" rather than to be distinguished as two, which in turn would preclude such a sharp distinction between Israel and the church.

So the first question in your title should be distinguished from the second question in your conclusion. I am answering the question in your title rather than the question in your conclusion.

Blessings,
DTK


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## Contra_Mundum (Apr 12, 2006)

> _Originally posted by no1special18_
> How do covenant theologians typically understand the lady, the child, and the children in Revelation...


An exegetical sermon on Rev. 12, entitled *"The Incarnation and Exaltation of the Lord of Glory"*. But if time is of the essence (or you need a safer guide), its much simpler to read a little from a good commentary or two on the passage.

[Edited on 4-12-2006 by Contra_Mundum]


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## youthevang (Apr 12, 2006)

> _Originally posted by Contra_Mundum_
> An exegetical sermon on Rev. 12, entitled *"The Incarnation and Exaltation of the Lord of Glory"*. But if time is of the essence (or you need a safer guide), its much simpler to read a little from a good commentary or two on the passage.



Great sermon. Thanks for the link.


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## Scott (Apr 17, 2006)

I was reading Lamentations today. Anyway, Israel is portrayed as a woman and the various people as her children. Seems like the same idea.


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