# Separation between church and career.



## Jonathan95 (Jan 16, 2020)

I work in one of the church's coffee shops and it's been cool. Helps pay the bills and allows me to get to know people and share the Gospel.

I am currently seeking a way to raise more money and I have an opportunity to go for a job that is willing to pay a salary range of $45k-$50k a year. If I get the job it'll be the most I've ever made. And I brought this up to my pastor who told me that he hopes that I do not get the job because it'll leave the coffee shop short staffed and it's been nice having me around. 

He also mentioned how he and the rest of the elders and even other managers of the shops have completed higher education and have degrees. But they are making enough to get by. And they get to be a part of the missionary work of the church. Which makes the lower pay worth it. If they wanted, they could all get better jobs to bring more money in. But they believe in the mission of the shops they have.

So he ended by saying that he hopes I don't get the job. But he isn't going to pray against me.

And I thought to myself.. huh. Wonder if this is the same advice I'd get from a pastor who _wasn't _so personally invested in my career decisions...


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## Jeri Tanner (Jan 16, 2020)

Wow.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Tom Hart (Jan 16, 2020)

I hope you get the job.

Reactions: Like 8 | Amen 1


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## Jonathan95 (Jan 16, 2020)

Tom Hart said:


> I hope you get the job.



Thank you brother. Same here.

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## Tom Hart (Jan 16, 2020)

Jonathan95 said:


> Thank you brother. Same here.


You know, a little distance between your church and your career might be a good thing.

Also... how did you know I was looking for a new job...?

Reactions: Funny 2


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## deleteduser99 (Jan 16, 2020)

Indeed, wow.

Take the job if it turns out to be suitable, and give a share of your increase to church and missions. That'll do more than the coffee shop. Christ has managed the church and missions without coffee shops for 2,000 years.

Reactions: Like 8 | Amen 3


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## Pergamum (Jan 16, 2020)

"I hope you don't get a better paying job. even if we keep you poor, we do like you around." Yikes. That is essentially what your pastor is saying. It sounds like he doesn't want YOUR best interest, but wants to use you for his own best interest.

Also, is it really "missionary work" working at a US coffee shop? I don't like folks blabbering at me with my coffee, I just want my coffee and to be left alone. I am guessing 90% of people are like that. They don't want to talk religion with a stranger over a latte.

Is the name of the Christian coffee shop, "He brews" or "Sacred Grounds?" Or maybe:

Jehovah Java.
The Cup that Overfloweth.
Holy Grounds.
Bean Redeemed.
Pressed but not Crushed.
Sorry. I don't mean to tease (okay, I do)...but the whole Christian Coffee Shop "ministry" thing has been overdone.


You wrote: "And they get to be a part of the missionary work of the church. Which makes the lower pay worth it." That really sounds like they are guilting you into accepting inadequate pay. I've seen many independent baptist churches paying their staff horribly. I went to a Indy Fundy Bible college for a year and in the middle of winter they refused to turn on the heat due to budget restrictions and low pay (the thermostat read 50 degrees and we all had to wear our coats, and the one female brought a blanket to class).

Being religious shouldn't lead us to mistreat folks and then give them a guilt trip when they want to seek out a better opportunity.

At least I am glad that the pastor is kind enough not to pray against your better employment. Again....wow. My advice is to get away from this knucklehead.

Reactions: Like 7 | Funny 1


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## Edward (Jan 16, 2020)

Is he willing to drop his salary (and adjust downward for the tax benefits) to what the coffee shop employees make?

There will be plusses and minuses to moving out of the nest, but the bottom line is that you'll probably have more long term opportunities to impact people in the new job.

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## Reformed Covenanter (Jan 16, 2020)

Not to be impolite, but it is none of your pastor's business if you wish to change career.

Reactions: Like 6


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## RobertPGH1981 (Jan 16, 2020)

I am surprised that your pastor would say he hopes you do not get the job. I can't think of any biblical warrant for you not to take the job unless its something that can cause you to sin.

Listening to your pastor make comments about high education and ministry resonates with me slightly, but I think he is assuming that because he made the switch everybody should.

I work in what I would call a good job and make a decent living for my family. However, I find myself feeling torn between my Church life and work life. The majority of the week I am at work trying to make our software as valuable as possible. This activity takes me away from studying my bible, outreach in my neighborhood and fellowshipping with my church family. My job also pulls me away from home traveling all around the United States. Its been challenging for me to understand how I should be viewing this activity from a biblical standpoint. Should I quit and go into full time ministry or should I stay and continue to outreach with my coworkers. My prayers and personal reflection is leading me to the latter. However, it sounds like your Pastor/Elder had this dilemma and they chose the former.

My point of saying this is if you work in a secular job just be mindful that God placed you there to be a light, and you should be intentional with reaching out to those walking in darkness. You might not feel like you are making much progress but God is the one who is in control. The job might pay well but you should view this as both a way to make money and a way to spread the gospel. Your work life and your church life do not need to be seperate.

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## Jonathan95 (Jan 16, 2020)

Tom Hart said:


> Also... how did you know I was looking for a new job...?


Please, it's written all over your face. Or.. you know, your little icon there.


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## Jonathan95 (Jan 16, 2020)

RobertPGH1981 said:


> I am surprised that your pastor would say he hopes you do not get the job. I can't think of any biblical warrant for you not to take the job unless its something that can cause you to sin.
> 
> Listening to your pastor make comments about high education and ministry resonates with me slightly, but I think he is assuming that because he made the switch everybody should.
> 
> ...



I understand what you are saying. Let us both seek to do whatever we find would glorify God the most, walking in all wisdom and according to biblical precepts.


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## hammondjones (Jan 16, 2020)

Hmm, our church doesn't have any coffee shops, but we do have both regular and decaf after the service. Unfortunately, that is only a volunteer position at this time.

I think you should endeavor, by all just and lawful means, to procure, preserve, and further the wealth and outward estate of others, as well as your own.

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## Afterthought (Jan 16, 2020)

A coffee shop, even a church coffee shop, is not a missionary work. So there goes that argument!

Reactions: Like 6 | Sad 1


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## Jonathan95 (Jan 16, 2020)

Afterthought said:


> A coffee shop, even a church coffee shop, is not a missionary work. So there goes that argument!


Explain.


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## timfost (Jan 16, 2020)

Jonathan,

I want to enter cautiously because I don't want to undermine the leadership of your church. 

However, as others have said, there are obvious conflicts of interest that play into your pastor's advice.

But I think there is another problem at the root. Many believe that it is the church's job _as an organization _to evangelize. This is not completely _untrue_, but primarily it is the church's job _as members_ to evangelize. Evangelism will not necessarily take place in a "church coffee shop" any more than in another work place. One might be more _conducive _in its policies, etc., but that doesn't necessarily mean it is _superior_. I think that sometimes churches as _organizations_ try to "manage" evangelism from the top down rather than training members so that evangelism is a function of the entire membership body.

My hope is that you get a job that pays well and that you are able to be a faithful witness both in word and tongue in whatever place that is.


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## Jonathan95 (Jan 16, 2020)

timfost said:


> Evangelism will not necessarily take place in a "church coffee shop" any more than in another work place.



I agree. This is why I am not at all convinced that I am abandoning the mission. I believe the thought that the elders of the church are trying to get across is that, by me leaving, they will take a big hit and be severely undermanned.

Currently at my store we have 4 people full time. 2 are going back to school next week and now I have stated that I might be leaving in order to secure this new job and the accompanying pay raise.

I guess that is the question they might be wondering in their hearts. Why would I leave them to struggle solely to be making more money. From a certain perspective it might seem as if I am choosing money over mission, and more particularly, choosing money over my church's calling.

The reason why I am not really convinced that I am doing something wrong is because I acknowledge that, whether I stay or go, evangelism is going to happen on my part. And if all of our coffee shops around the city were to shut down, this does not hinder what God is doing at all.

The thing is, all of the elders came to Boston from California 7 years ago with the sole intent of starting coffee shops and holding service right there. And so for them having uprooted their lives for this purpose, when someone comes along and doesn't treat it with the kind of seriousness that they do, it might come off as undermining what they seek to do in the city for the glory of God.

This is my perspective of the matter.


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## GulfCoast Presbyterian (Jan 16, 2020)

Brother: I hope that you do in fact get the new job. Blessings!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jonathan95 (Jan 16, 2020)

GulfCoast Presbyterian said:


> Brother: I hope that you do in fact get the new job. Blessings!



Thank you!!


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## Afterthought (Jan 16, 2020)

Jonathan95 said:


> Explain.


Sorry, when I made my comment, I did not realize you might not be on the same page on that point. See Tim's post for some elaboration.

Basically, a missionary work is a work that fulfills the Great Commission. The Great Commission requires the evangelizing and instructing of all nations to obey all things Christ has commanded. This evangelizing and instructing is done by sending apostles and evangelists and pastors (though only pastors remain with us as an office today) to preach the Gospel and to instruct in the Scriptures. This preaching results in conversion and instruction of people who are gathered into a body that will one day form a fully functioning church, as church officers are eventually ordained in the congregatoin. THIS is a missionary work: a church in infant form; an organization ordained by Christ that allows pastors to convert and instruct sinners to obey all Christ has commanded. Christ has given no promise of blessing attached to any other means of evangelizing and instructing than this means of preaching the Word and establishing churches.

A coffee shop is just a coffee shop. It can provide opportunities for speaking good things for Christ or providing Christian literature. It can provide an opportunity for a Christian business to bring glory to God in serving others by means of providing an enjoyable (to most; I dislike coffee haha!) beverage and/or other products and space to sit down and talk with friends or meet new people....as well as witnessing to an unbelieving world as to the difference Christ can make in a business owner's life or in running a business. However, a coffee shop is not a church and therefore not part of the mission Christ has given the church for evangelizing and instructing. It is therefore not a missionary work.

I hope that helps explain my original comment!

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## Jonathan95 (Jan 16, 2020)

Afterthought said:


> ; I dislike coffee haha



We also have tea and hot chocolate if you're so inclined! 

Haha, yes this helps, thank you!

One further note. Every summer we partner with other churches from across the country and we will get people who come to volunteer at our locations and help share the gospel with unbelievers. All of these people believe themselves to be missionaries. Where do you think the confusion lies?

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## RobertPGH1981 (Jan 16, 2020)

Where in Boston is your coffee shop. My wife and I are meeting family in Scituate, MA around the 4th of July. Maybe we can swing by for some coffee or tea. FYI, I love coffee and drink it all the time.

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## Jonathan95 (Jan 16, 2020)

RobertPGH1981 said:


> Where in Boston is your coffee shop. My wife and I are meeting family in Scituate, MA around the 4th of July. Maybe we can swing by for some coffee or tea. FYI, I love coffee and drink it all the time.


Right outside the old state house. Where the Boston massacre took place. Name is THE WELL COFFEE HOUSE. We'd love to have you!


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## gjensen (Jan 16, 2020)

I am not going to hope that you get the job. I do not know if it is the right job for you or not. I will hope and pray that you will flourish wherever our Lord places you.

I am troubled by your pastor's advice. It would have been better for him to say that he was conflicted, and that they hated to lose you.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pergamum (Jan 16, 2020)

Jonathan95 said:


> I agree. This is why I am not at all convinced that I am abandoning the mission. I believe the thought that the elders of the church are trying to get across is that, by me leaving, they will take a big hit and be severely undermanned.
> 
> Currently at my store we have 4 people full time. 2 are going back to school next week and now I have stated that I might be leaving in order to secure this new job and the accompanying pay raise.
> 
> ...



You wrote:

"The thing is, all of the elders came to Boston from California 7 years ago with the sole intent of starting coffee shops and holding service right there. And so for them having uprooted their lives for this purpose, when someone comes along and doesn't treat it with the kind of seriousness that they do, it might come off as undermining what they seek to do in the city for the glory of God."

That is a problem right there. What has our models of church-planting become!?!

Reactions: Sad 1


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## RJ Spencer (Jan 16, 2020)

I would kill (not literally) for a job in the ministry that didn't require higher education and was enough to pay the bills.

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## Jonathan95 (Jan 16, 2020)

RJ Spencer said:


> I would kill (not literally) for a job in the ministry that didn't require higher education and was enough to pay the bills.



Exactly why I am grateful to be where I am. Regardless of how this job opportunity turns out.


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## rookie (Jan 16, 2020)

I know this is going to get personal, but are you single, married, children, mortgage, rent....vehicle...

Here in New Brunswick, there are no coffee shops that pay enough to support 2 of the above without a spouse. I also only know of 1 woman that has served coffee for over 20 yrs in the same coffee shop (Tim Horton's), and I doubt she's making more than $16 per hour...

Most people work in a coffee shop while they are studying for more stable/long term careers, or till they encounter the right opportunity for advancement in jobs/careers.

While I don't know the whole story, your pastor and his coffee shop staff/managers are welcome to do what they please and stay working in the shops. If that's their mission statement and goal, great. That doesn't mean it's yours.

I know at my church (more and more difficult to go as I'm seeing the pastor is not really the one in charge), just because the church has a certain vision and goal, it doesn't mean it's mine.


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## Jonathan95 (Jan 16, 2020)

rookie said:


> I know this is going to get personal, but are you single, married, children, mortgage, rent....vehicle...
> 
> Here in New Brunswick, there are no coffee shops that pay enough to support 2 of the above without a spouse. I also only know of 1 woman that has served coffee for over 20 yrs in the same coffee shop (Tim Horton's), and I doubt she's making more than $16 per hour...
> 
> ...



I understand. Yeah it's just me and I live with my mother. But I pay 500 in rent and I'm making $17 an hour. And I have no expectations of getting married or anything like that. 

I was excited for the opportunity to make more because I would be able to move out on my own quicker. But even now I don't know what the Lord would have me do.


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## Afterthought (Jan 16, 2020)

Jonathan95 said:


> We also have tea and hot chocolate if you're so inclined!
> 
> Haha, yes this helps, thank you!
> 
> One further note. Every summer we partner with other churches from across the country and we will get people who come to volunteer at our locations and help share the gospel with unbelievers. All of these people believe themselves to be missionaries. Where do you think the confusion lies?


Haha! I do love hot chocolate!

It is difficult to say where the confusion lies exactly. When I was in SBC circles, the problem tended to be that they thought the Great Commission was given to everyone: everyone is to be an evangelist, just as much as a pastor. This thought was never carried through consistently: only pastors preached or baptized, etc. But the "mission" of the Great Commission to evangelize as a special calling of God was thought to be given to all believers. Everyone becomes a minister; a pastor becomes just a special kind of minister who is a bit more educated and has leadership gifts. A person's secular vocation becomes just a means to the end of evangelism because evangelism is the prime calling on a person's life.

In reality, the Great Commission is given to the Church: more specifically, in our time, pastors. Laymen have no special calling of God to evangelize, neither is it their prime vocation to evangelize, but they do have an ordinary duty that arises from love to fellow men and zeal for Christ to speak well of and for Christ. They are not official ambassadors of the kingdom, but as citizens that are fond of the kingdom and its king, they will make some use of their time (as God gives it) to try and persuade others to come and join them, instead of perishing.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## Edward (Jan 16, 2020)

@Jonathan95 

Giving the most charitable spin to what your pastor said - perhaps he was in-artfully trying to pay you a complement as an excellent employee that he didn't want to have to try to replace. 



hammondjones said:


> our church doesn't have any coffee shops, but we do have both regular and decaf after the service. Unfortunately, that is only a volunteer position at this time.



We don't have a coffee shop either, but grinding the beans on for the free coffee is part of the position description for the Sextons.

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## Jonathan95 (Jan 16, 2020)

Afterthought said:


> Haha! I do love hot chocolate!
> 
> It is difficult to say where the confusion lies exactly. When I was in SBC circles, the problem tended to be that they thought the Great Commission was given to everyone: everyone is to be an evangelist, just as much as a pastor. This thought was never carried through consistently: only pastors preached or baptized, etc. But the "mission" of the Great Commission to evangelize as a special calling of God was thought to be given to all believers. Everyone becomes a minister; a pastor becomes just a special kind of minister who is a bit more educated and has leadership gifts. A person's secular vocation becomes just a means to the end of evangelism because evangelism is the prime calling on a person's life.
> 
> In reality, the Great Commission is given to the Church: more specifically, in our time, pastors. Laymen have no special calling of God to evangelize, neither is it their prime vocation to evangelize, but they do have an ordinary duty that arises from love to fellow men and zeal for Christ to speak well of and for Christ. They are not official ambassadors of the kingdom, but as citizens that are fond of the kingdom and its king, they will make some use of their time (as God gives it) to try and persuade others to come and join them, instead of perishing.



Yes! In fact I feel at times that my church is so focused on evangelistic efforts that they don't really focus on the holiness of God and how we are also to grow in holiness as His people.

This is not to say that my church puts zero emphasis on growing in holiness as a church. It's just that it's not primarily a Lord's day conversation from the pulpit. You will hear about it in groups throughout the week and if you were to approach the elders and staff they would have no trouble diving deep in that way.

Sunday morning sermons seem to be primarily focused on equipping the saints for their work in sharing the gospel and living as a light in the city at all times.

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## Jonathan95 (Jan 16, 2020)

Edward said:


> @Jonathan95
> 
> Giving the most charitable spin to what your pastor said - perhaps he was in-artfully trying to pay you a complement as an excellent employee that he didn't want to have to try to replace.
> 
> ...



I don't doubt it. It just had me rolling my eyes because I doubt I would've heard the same thing if he didn't have a personal stake in how I choose to progress in my career.


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## Chad Hutson (Jan 16, 2020)

I would never impose upon a congregant's employment opportunities unless they were sinful or required missing services on the Lord's Day (I repeat myself). Just to respond to what you wrote and assuming it is the complete picture, you should take the job if the Lord leads and blesses. That will be your new mission field. Make connections, meet new people, forge new relationships, and spread the gospel!

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## Ben Zartman (Jan 16, 2020)

If your church is running a for-profit business, how do they keep their tax-exempt status?
Kind of unrelated: Can your elders show you from Scripture where God commands that a church should run a restaurant? It seems a funky model of church support, when according to Paul they that labor in the Gospel should live of the Gospel (basically that preachers oughtta be paid). Is the shop open on Sundays?


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## Wretched Man (Jan 16, 2020)

This post looks like a Babylon Bee article.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Jonathan95 (Jan 16, 2020)

Ben Zartman said:


> If your church is running a for-profit business, how do they keep their tax-exempt status?
> Kind of unrelated: Can your elders show you from Scripture where God commands that a church should run a restaurant? It seems a funky model of church support, when according to Paul they that labor in the Gospel should live of the Gospel (basically that preachers oughtta be paid). Is the shop open on Sundays?



It's a nonprofit. The church doesn't technically run it. They are technically two separate things. None of the income goes to the church itself. Just upkeep for the shop and manager salaries. Most of the staff is volunteers. Most of the money gets donated to another local nonprofit each month. Never Sundays.

The namesake is taken from the context of John 4. The woman at the well. And how the well is a place that everybody has to go. And so The Well Coffee House was started as a way to get people in who are far from God. This opening up opportunities to have regular customers come in who we can share the faith with as we get to know each other.


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## Pergamum (Jan 17, 2020)

Afterthought said:


> Haha! I do love hot chocolate!
> 
> It is difficult to say where the confusion lies exactly. When I was in SBC circles, the problem tended to be that they thought the Great Commission was given to everyone: everyone is to be an evangelist, just as much as a pastor. This thought was never carried through consistently: only pastors preached or baptized, etc. But the "mission" of the Great Commission to evangelize as a special calling of God was thought to be given to all believers. Everyone becomes a minister; a pastor becomes just a special kind of minister who is a bit more educated and has leadership gifts. A person's secular vocation becomes just a means to the end of evangelism because evangelism is the prime calling on a person's life.
> 
> In reality, the Great Commission is given to the Church: more specifically, in our time, pastors. Laymen have no special calling of God to evangelize, neither is it their prime vocation to evangelize, but they do have an ordinary duty that arises from love to fellow men and zeal for Christ to speak well of and for Christ. They are not official ambassadors of the kingdom, but as citizens that are fond of the kingdom and its king, they will make some use of their time (as God gives it) to try and persuade others to come and join them, instead of perishing.



Let's not tread over this tired subject again. Every single Christian is called to be a witness. Every Christian takes part in the Great Commission in some manner (praying, going, sending).

The bigger issue is coffee shops as a means to church planting. It is a faulty SBC methodology. Opening a coffee shop is not missions. 

I don't know how I feel about such efforts being able to get non-profit status. But I don't think they are a very good way to spread the Gospel. If the SBC wants to do missions I know 1,000 more effective and more direct things they could do than open low-paying coffee shops.


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## Ben Zartman (Jan 17, 2020)

Jonathan95 said:


> It's a nonprofit. The church doesn't technically run it. They are technically two separate things. None of the income goes to the church itself. Just upkeep for the shop and manager salaries. Most of the staff is volunteers. Most of the money gets donated to another local nonprofit each month. Never Sundays.
> 
> The namesake is taken from the context of John 4. The woman at the well. And how the well is a place that everybody has to go. And so The Well Coffee House was started as a way to get people in who are far from God. This opening up opportunities to have regular customers come in who we can share the faith with as we get to know each other.


I see. If as you say most of the money gets donated to another local nonprofit, it seems that they could simply pay staff more, thus having a better testimony among their employees. Judgment begins, after all, at the house of God. "You shall not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn." Technically, if they _could_ be paying you more, and they refuse out of obduracy rather than necessity or because you're not worth more, they are stealing from you. "Withold not good from him to whom it is due." Get a better job. Don't waste your talents being shortchanged by misguided guilt-trippers.


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## Jonathan95 (Jan 17, 2020)

Ben Zartman said:


> I see. If as you say most of the money gets donated to another local nonprofit, it seems that they could simply pay staff more, thus having a better testimony among their employees. Judgment begins, after all, at the house of God. "You shall not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn." Technically, if they _could_ be paying you more, and they refuse out of obduracy rather than necessity or because you're not worth more, they are stealing from you. "Withold not good from him to whom it is due." Get a better job. Don't waste your talents being shortchanged by misguided guilt-trippers.



Thank you for your words. They are not even responsible for paying me. A financial building downtown heard about us and offered to bring us into the building as an amenity for the companies there. Which means thousands of customers and free drinks for them all. So the building pays for supplies and our wages. $17 an hour. In turn, we get to hold Bible studies and make use of the space whenever we please.


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## Afterthought (Jan 17, 2020)

Pergamum said:


> Let's not tread over this tired subject again. Every single Christian is called to be a witness. Every Christian takes part in the Great Commission in some manner (praying, going, sending).


I am Presbyterian. I am obviously going to answer in a Presbyterian manner that takes a high view of church office, as you will answer in a Baptist manner. Nevertheless, this quoted portion shows a lack of understanding of what I said.

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