# How long before you received your first call?



## jjraby

To all people who have completed seminary. How long after graduation did you wait to receive your first call?


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## Zenas

I suspect it varied depending on the times. Back when some of the dinosaurs here graduated, they had to first call their families to tell them, then their families told their friends, who in turn called them. It probably took a bit for the news to travel before the first phone call came. 

Now, with the advent of text messaging, I bet you'll be able to text your friends and they'll give you a return call pretty quickly.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

I graduated in February of '09 and have not received my first call as of yet.


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## fredtgreco

I graduated in May of 2006 and was among the last in my class to get a call. I was called to my present work in July 2006.


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## Curt

I graduated in May 1981. I received a call in October of that year.


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## jjraby

Wow, Fred and Curt, thats pretty good.


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## N. Eshelman

I received two calls before I graduated. One to Chicago RPCNA and one to Los Angeles RPCNA. I finished my presbytery exams before I finished seminary. I received both calls when I was eligible from my presbytery.


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## jjraby

wow again. From what i hear from other people, you guys are not the norm.


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## Zenas

What steps did all of you take to get to the positions you're in? What suggestions would you give someone who's in seminary now to transition directly into a position? What was most helpful to you in receiving your call?


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## jjraby

I know more people who either haven't gotten a call yet, because these days there are so many Older pastors who won't retire, that there is no reason to hire a first time call, or even look at there PIF or listen to a sermon. I have a good friend who applied to 50+churches and some said that, even if he is qualified, they aren't even looking at his application because he's a first time call.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

jjraby said:


> I know more people who either haven't gotten a call yet, because these days there are so many Older pastors who won't retire, that there is no reason to hire a first time call, or even look at there PIF or listen to a sermon. I have a good friend who applied to 50+churches and some said that, even if he is qualified, they aren't even looking at his application because he's a first time call.


 
Is your friend me?


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## Zenas

Raby, 

Same problem in the legal world. There's an oversaturation of older, experienced attorneys looking for jobs to the point that no one will hire someone without experience, thus creating an obvious "Catch-22" situation. That's why I asked the questions above. My guess is those guys who are the exception did something different than everyone else to make themselves more marketable. 

I know we're speaking of a calling to a pulpit in business terms, but if we're good Protestants, and we are, your call to the pulpit is not necessarily all that different from my call to the courtroom. We all have our vocations and I took specific steps in my approach to finding my job that made me attractive enough to hire, even with more experienced attorneys available for hire. My guess is that those who are the exception to the rule mentioned above did the same thing. If you repeat some of the steps they took, it certainly couldn't hurt you.


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## Marrow Man

Zenas said:


> I suspect it varied depending on the times. Back when some of the dinosaurs here graduated, they had to first call their families to tell them, then their families told their friends, who in turn called them. It probably took a bit for the news to travel before the first phone call came.
> 
> Now, with the advent of text messaging, I bet you'll be able to text your friends and they'll give you a return call pretty quickly.


 
 Best. Post. Ever. I laughed so hard that I scared Grace. 

I finished seminary in December of 2003. I candidated in early January and received a call from the same church. I technically did not "graduated" until May of 2004 (meaning the graduation ceremony and conferring of the diploma did not happen until then), but I had already been installed and ordained in April of that year.


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## jjraby

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> jjraby said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know more people who either haven't gotten a call yet, because these days there are so many Older pastors who won't retire, that there is no reason to hire a first time call, or even look at there PIF or listen to a sermon. I have a good friend who applied to 50+churches and some said that, even if he is qualified, they aren't even looking at his application because he's a first time call.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is your friend me?
Click to expand...

 
Very well may be. As I've said this is a standard problem I've heard. It almost gets to the point of not loosing hope to keep going with school


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## Zenas

I think finding a post "helpful", in the case of my first post, is a very loose, subjective definition of "helpful".


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## Marrow Man

fredtgreco said:


> I graduated in May of 2006 and was among the last in my class to get a call. I was called to my present work in July 2006.


 
Wow, Fred, that seems to go completely against the popular notion of the spareness of calls in the PCA. If you were among the last to receive a call, and it was only a few months later, that was great for you and your classmates! Which seminary did you attend, btw?


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## JOwen

I graduated In May of 2005, and received my first call in June of the same year.


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## jjraby

Please tell me what yall did to get a call so quick.


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## LawrenceU

I received a call before graduation. But, then I had been serving as pulpit supply for two years prior to that.


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## fredtgreco

Marrow Man said:


> fredtgreco said:
> 
> 
> 
> I graduated in May of 2006 and was among the last in my class to get a call. I was called to my present work in July 2006.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, Fred, that seems to go completely against the popular notion of the spareness of calls in the PCA. If you were among the last to receive a call, and it was only a few months later, that was great for you and your classmates! Which seminary did you attend, btw?
Click to expand...

 RTS-Jackson. We had a relatively small class (15? 20?) and several men became church planters.


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## JOwen

I was full time pulpit supply for 4 years in the congregation that first called me. I served them for another 15 months before i took mt second call here. I'm just completed my 4th year here, and am now moving to New Jersey to begin my third charge. I hope that this call will be longer than the 4 or 5 years previously. One minister in our federation just completed his 22nd year. I'd like to follow in his footsteps.


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## JonathanHunt

'Applying to churches', 'submitting resumes'... all seems as if 'the ministry' is just another job.

This awful attitude to 'a first time call' really gets to me as well. How far we have come in so many cases from the scriptural pattern of men training men and raising up new leaders within the local church. If the church knows a man well, this whole 'first time' phobia becomes redundant.


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## Zenas

JonathanHunt said:


> 'Applying to churches', 'submitting resumes'... all seems as if 'the ministry' is just another job.
> 
> This awful attitude to 'a first time call' really gets to me as well. How far we have come in so many cases from the scriptural pattern of men training men and raising up new leaders within the local church. If the church knows a man well, this whole 'first time' phobia becomes redundant.


 


> I know we're speaking of a calling to a pulpit in business terms, but if we're good Protestants, and we are, your call to the pulpit is not necessarily all that different from my call to the courtroom. We all have our vocations...



In a sense, it is just another job, understood in the context that no job is really "just a job" but a vocation that we are called to do and ought to do to the glory of God. The teaching elder and lawyer are not dissimilar to the construction worker or welder. Each has their job, it's just that the teaching elder's position is one of particular spiritual signifigance in so far as its substance. 

My point is not to marginalize the vocation of teaching elder so as to "bring it down" to other jobs, but rather than the other jobs ought not to be marginalized as they so are often though of. In this way, I think seeking a pulpit can be thought of like anyone else seeking a job. It's not just a job though, for anyone, but a vocation.


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## N. Eshelman

jjraby said:


> Please tell me what yall did to get a call so quick.


 
One of things for us in smaller denominations (the RPCNA has 89 congregations in the US and Canada.. and then there are a lot o RPs in Japan, Australia, China, Sudan, Scotland, Northern Ireland, France, Syria, etc -but they are different synods) is that MOST of the candidates are known to the churches. If there are 10 churches open (which is likely at any given time) and there are 15-20 men who are seeking a call, then the names/gifts/personalities/preferences/styles get around rather quickly.


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## Marrow Man

jjraby said:


> Please tell me what yall did to get a call so quick.


 
At seminary, there were some times in which we met in denominational groups instead of chapel and heard a talk, had a time of prayer, etc. During one of those times for prayer, we had broken up into small groups. I requested prayer as I was finishing seminary and looking for a call. One of the people in my group was a professor, and he asked where I was looking. I pretty said any presbytery besides Northeast and Canada (no offense, but I just don't like snow!). He asked if I would be interested in Mississippi, and I said I would. He knew someone on the pulpit search committee of a church that was looking, and he contacted them for me. The rest is history.


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## Willem van Oranje

jjraby said:


> I know more people who either haven't gotten a call yet, because these days there are so many Older pastors who won't retire, that there is no reason to hire a first time call, or even look at there PIF or listen to a sermon. I have a good friend who applied to 50+churches and some said that, even if he is qualified, they aren't even looking at his application because he's a first time call.



Seems like they are not looking ahead to the future. The Old-Timers can't stay around too, too, long before they are called home to glory. Meanwhile, the young'uns have at least 40-50 years to dedicate to a congregation. There's a lot of good that could be done with such a stable church ministry. If it were me, that's how I would respond to them.


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## Zenas

Something that needs to be considered though is the experience of the pastor. Unfortunately, people are generally terrible as people and a pastor, in my estimation, is going to have to deal with them. As a result, dealing with sessions, congregations, or the individuals that comprise them is not always a walk in the park and a pastor's experience in dealing with those types of situations is valuable. It's not a skill that a "newbie" is likely to have. I've observed instances where if I were a pastor, I probably would have been fired for how I would have dealt with the situation. It's an ever present reminder that I am not called to be a teaching elder. 

It's obviously not dispositive, but the experience relative to a teaching elder is relative to whether they fit with a congregation. 

That's at least my lay-opinion.


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## dannyhyde

I began the work of planting the Oceanside URC in December 1999, graduated in May 2000, passed Classis exams in June 2000, and was called in July 2000.


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## earl40

Though I am not a pastor I got my call the week before I graduated and started the next Monday and I missed my graduation......27 years ago. Still doing essentially the same job at the same place the entire time.


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## SolaScriptura

fredtgreco said:


> We had a relatively small class (15? 20?) and several men became church planters.


 
I like it! Creating their own positions... plus they didn't inherit a previous pastor's problems, they got to make their own!


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## markkoller

nleshelman said:


> jjraby said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please tell me what yall did to get a call so quick.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of things for us in smaller denominations (the RPCNA has 89 congregations in the US and Canada.. and then there are a lot o RPs in Japan, Australia, China, Sudan, Scotland, Northern Ireland, France, Syria, etc -but they are different synods) is that MOST of the candidates are known to the churches. If there are 10 churches open (which is likely at any given time) and there are 15-20 men who are seeking a call, then the names/gifts/personalities/preferences/styles get around rather quickly.
Click to expand...

 
So what are the open pulpits in the RPCNA right now? Its been a while since Ive seen an update.


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## N. Eshelman

markkoller said:


> nleshelman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jjraby said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please tell me what yall did to get a call so quick.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of things for us in smaller denominations (the RPCNA has 89 congregations in the US and Canada.. and then there are a lot o RPs in Japan, Australia, China, Sudan, Scotland, Northern Ireland, France, Syria, etc -but they are different synods) is that MOST of the candidates are known to the churches. If there are 10 churches open (which is likely at any given time) and there are 15-20 men who are seeking a call, then the names/gifts/personalities/preferences/styles get around rather quickly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So what are the open pulpits in the RPCNA right now? Its been a while since Ive seen an update.
Click to expand...

 
Mark, I will give another update in September (towards the end). I am on the home mission board and we put that list together at each meeting. Here is the list from April: presbyterian thoughts: 20/20 Vision and Open Pulpits

I am not sure how much it has changed since then other than Bloomington, IN is now open, and Terre Haute, IN has been filled.


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## Guido's Brother

I completed my seminary studies in May of 2000 (though graduation wasn't until September). I went to a classis and was examined and declared eligible for call in the Canadian Reformed Churches. Right after the exam, I had a letter of call from a church to serve as a missionary in British Columbia. But there had been some goings-on behind the scenes. I had done an internship on that mission field the summer before and we had talked about me becoming their missionary. So, it wasn't a surprise.


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## Scottish Lass

Zenas said:


> Something that needs to be considered though is the experience of the pastor. Unfortunately, people are generally terrible as people and a pastor, in my estimation, is going to have to deal with them. As a result, dealing with sessions, congregations, or the individuals that comprise them is not always a walk in the park and a pastor's experience in dealing with those types of situations is valuable. It's not a skill that a "newbie" is likely to have. I've observed instances where if I were a pastor, I probably would have been fired for how I would have dealt with the situation. It's an ever present reminder that I am not called to be a teaching elder.
> 
> It's obviously not dispositive, but the experience relative to a teaching elder is relative to whether they fit with a congregation.
> 
> That's at least my lay-opinion.


 
On the other hand, a man who is new to the pastorate but who has several years in the secular work force may be equipped to handle that as well as (or better than) a man who has been a minister for two decades. Management styles have changed over the years, and not all of the old-timers have the same skill sets.


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## Zenas

Scottish Lass said:


> Zenas said:
> 
> 
> 
> Something that needs to be considered though is the experience of the pastor. Unfortunately, people are generally terrible as people and a pastor, in my estimation, is going to have to deal with them. As a result, dealing with sessions, congregations, or the individuals that comprise them is not always a walk in the park and a pastor's experience in dealing with those types of situations is valuable. It's not a skill that a "newbie" is likely to have. I've observed instances where if I were a pastor, I probably would have been fired for how I would have dealt with the situation. It's an ever present reminder that I am not called to be a teaching elder.
> 
> It's obviously not dispositive, but the experience relative to a teaching elder is relative to whether they fit with a congregation.
> 
> That's at least my lay-opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the other hand, a man who is new to the pastorate but who has several years in the secular work force may be equipped to handle that as well as (or better than) a man who has been a minister for two decades. Management styles have changed over the years, and not all of the old-timers have the same skill sets.
Click to expand...


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## jjraby

so If i am not over 40, married with 2.5 kids with 15 years experience I have no hope of a pulpit?


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## Zenas

No. If you simply sit through seminary, don't develop contacts, and don't try to attain some sort of practical experience you are less likely, if history is an indicator, to receive a call. If I were you, I would try to fill in as a pulpit supply preacher for churches in your area at the very least. I would also try to get involved with some of the ministries of the denomination you wish to preach in to develop contacts within that denomination. 

Hunting for a job as a pastor isn't wrong. It's responsible. You're doing what you can to prepare yourself, as well as to make your gifts and talents known and available to the church that needs them.


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## jjraby

Oh i'm for sure preaching the circuit, not only is it great experience, but it usually pays pretty well.


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## Contra_Mundum

I waited four years. It is worth however long the wait. Trust the Lord, He's in charge.


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## SolaScriptura

Contra_Mundum said:


> I waited four years. It is worth however long the wait. Trust the Lord, He's in charge.


 
Glad the 4-year wait proved worthwhile for you. But at what point do we decide/realize that the judgment of man has proved errant, and that God has simply not called one to an ordained ministry?


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## jjraby

SolaScriptura said:


> Contra_Mundum said:
> 
> 
> 
> I waited four years. It is worth however long the wait. Trust the Lord, He's in charge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Glad the 4-year wait proved worthwhile for you. But at what point do we decide/realize that the judgment of man has proved errant, and that God has simply not called one to an ordained ministry?
Click to expand...

 
that's a good question...

---------- Post added at 02:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:47 PM ----------




Contra_Mundum said:


> I waited four years. It is worth however long the wait. Trust the Lord, He's in charge.


 
What did you do while you waited?


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## Contra_Mundum

What is the internal call? Is it legitimate? It is, but it should not stand alone.

What is licensure? It is an exam, followed by a trial period. It is not open-ended, although it may be renewed.

In other words, one does not divorce himself from the judgment of the church, even as he seeks the place (wherever it may be) to which the Lord is calling.

The church ought to have deemed a man's quest worthwhile from the beginning, by encouraging him and taking him "under care." Or if not, then by discouraging him from the effort and expense of training. Then, it had the obligation to continue along with him as his gifts were honed, and presumably his calling made more apparent in the interim (while he studied). A man should see the support of others in his home church and Presbytery, while he seeks a call. It's awfully lonely otherwise.

I was disappointed many times by apparent fruitlessness in my search. But, by grace I kept my confidence that I was called. God was using those delays in my life for sanctification, and to make me a better pastor, husband, and father. Given how far I need still to go, I shudder to think what might have happened to my first charge, if I was not put through further trials of patience. Meanwhile, the church around me was not indifferent, and was an encouragement to me--although sometimes I wished they had been more so.


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## Contra_Mundum

jjraby said:


> Contra_Mundum said:
> 
> 
> 
> I waited four years. It is worth however long the wait. Trust the Lord, He's in charge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What did you do while you waited?
Click to expand...

 
After Seminary, I did an internship/pulpit supply for about a year. And then I worked as a security guard to support my family, I preached when I could, and I took opportunities to candidate. A long wait for a proud heart.

*If Christ wants to make a minister of you, He is invincible.* And yet, your heart is part of the process. Are you listening to Him? is always a question to ask yourself. Pray that your destiny is not to be a blight on the church, an example of a "mistake-not-to-be-repeated," or a rod of chastisement (being worthless for anything else) for a rebellious flock. Some men are not seeking for the right reasons. Some men have an inflated opinion of themsleves.

But a humble minister is a powerful weapon in the Lord's hands.


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## SolaScriptura

Contra_Mundum said:


> What is the internal call? Is it legitimate? It is, but it should not stand alone.
> 
> What is licensure? It is an exam, followed by a trial period. It is not open-ended, although it may be renewed.
> 
> In other words, one does not divorce himself from the judgment of the church, even as he seeks the place (wherever it may be) to which the Lord is calling.
> 
> The church ought to have deemed a man's quest worthwhile from the beginning, by encouraging him and taking him "under care." Or if not, then by discouraging him from the effort and expense of training. Then, it had the obligation to continue along with him as his gifts were honed, and presumably his calling made more apparent in the interim (while he studied). A man should see the support of others in his home church and Presbytery, while he seeks a call. It's awfully lonely otherwise.
> 
> I was disappointed many times by apparent fruitlessness in my search. But, by grace I kept my confidence that I was called. God was using those delays in my life for sanctification, and to make me a better pastor, husband, and father. Given how far I need still to go, I shudder to think what might have happened to my first charge, if I was not put through further trials of patience. Meanwhile, the church around me was not indifferent, and was an encouragement to me--although sometimes I wished they had been more so.



Bruce - Thanks for sharing, and I am grateful that in your case you did in fact persevere with your sense of calling. I did not intend to imply that you should have thrown in the towel at some point during your 4-year search. I was not questioning the legitimacy of your own calling or wait, and thus I do not want you to feel like your answer needs to be a defense of your perseverance. I'd like some pastoral counsel for anyone who may experience a long wait - 
Is there a point at which we should begin questioning whether our internal sense of calling is misled, or if the presbytery is incorrect in their assessment? Or should we keep the dream alive as long as we "want" to do ministry and as long as the church is giving us the thumbs up? (But on that note, based on the number of times I've either seen or heard about presbyteries approving candidates with seemingly a wink and a nod, I'd bet a presbytery might be a bit slower to bring under care a candidate if they had to agree to subsidize his living expenses while he searched for a position...)
Any guidance?

---------- Post added at 05:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:05 PM ----------




Contra_Mundum said:


> But a humble minister is a powerful weapon in the Lord's hands.



So was Nebuchadnezzar.


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## Contra_Mundum

Ben,
I do think that a man ought to be in an ongoing process of evaluation. And he should be listening to people around him, perhaps his wife above all.

Seriously, if a man is seeking a call, and he's teaching Sunday School in his home church, and preaching in that pulpit when duty calls or an opportunity present itself, should we expect the church to be honest with him--positively and negatively?

There are a lot of men who should have listened to their conscience long ago--some of them even got into the ministry, and are cumbering the ground, and are blocking opportunities for men with more of a true call than they have. Well, thank God Christ is still on his throne.

So, yes, there does come a time when a reasonable thought would be to "shelve" this hope for a call, this "dream" for serving in the ministry. Many men get in the ministry, and if they were honest would confess to wishing they had not. The realities of this job would keep many an aspiring seminarian from ever rushing in, if they only knew or considered them.

The church has a HUGE role in serving both the church, and its ministers, and its aspirants. When it fails its task in any department, people suffer.


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## sdesocio

I was tentatively offered a position before graduation which turned into a call upon completed of my examines at the next presbytery meeting. While I see some weaknesses in the system our presbytery is a strong proponent of local ministry, so I went to seminary in Pittsburgh, did my internship in Pittsburgh and received my first, and second call form the same presbytery.


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