# What effects will post-modernism have on the church in this and following generation?



## Gforce9 (Nov 3, 2012)

In another thread, our good chaplain from Freezerburn, Alaska made the following observation:



SolaScriptura said:


> It is all post modernism's fault.
> 
> With the rise of post modernity, people have severed their epistemological connections with authority systems that infringe upon their autonomy. Systems that are very much oriented around dogmatic assertions and careful reasoning are particularly odious to the post-modern mind. So they are abandoned for less cognitively demanding systems.



With this in mind, what effects will post-modernism have on the church in this and the next generation in the following areas:

*Preaching 
*Church government
*the Confessions
*Other areas

Our children, even if home schooled, are probably assaulted, subtly or not so subtly, by post-modern ideas regularly. I have found things coming out of my own mouth (and I'm 42) that are embarrassingly post-modern.  I have heard from the pulpit "No creed but Christ". 
I think broad evangelicalism has, by and large, lost the battle with post-modernism.....maybe some never even put up a fight. Even solid, Reformed denominations may have subtly (even unknowingly) embraced elements of it.


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## Peairtach (Nov 3, 2012)

True Christianity is neither modern nor postmodern, but pre-modern or traditional. Both modernism and postmodernism when analysed, as they are by evangelical and reformed writers in various books, are philosophically untenable, and are ways of trying to hide from the internal testimony of God. 

Moderns have been resistant to the Gospel, as are postmoderns, but the message is the same, and finds resonance in hearts that are prepared by the Spirit of God.

There are signs that postmodernism is so unstable and untenable as a basic worldview compared with modernism that it is somewhat already the flavour of the past


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## yeutter (Nov 3, 2012)

Post-modernism has already made great inroads in its assault on the historic Lutheran, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, and Reformed Liturgies.


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## Gforce9 (Nov 3, 2012)

yeutter said:


> Post-modernism has already made great inroads in its assault on the historic Lutheran, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, and Reformed Liturgies.



Thomas,
Please give some examples.


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## arapahoepark (Nov 3, 2012)

The way cultures go, something will replace post-modernism in the near future. Post Modernism is romanticism of the 19th century revisited with a few nuances reacting against the same thing, rationalism and dogmatism. Perhaps the next generation will be sick of relativism and unity and quest for truth once more in a dogmatic fashion.
I have no idea how that adds to the convo...just my two cents. *I believe the true church will persevere *despite the culture at large changing and evolving believing the newest thing to be the latest and greatest, which is folly that has been around nearly since the dawn of time. The ones who are sucked into it can't back up and see they fell as well.
I could be wrong, but this [post-modernism] also seems to be a 'western thing.'


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## yeutter (Nov 3, 2012)

Gforce 9 asks for specific ways in which post modernism has impacted the Church liturgically.
Look at the Communion liturgy that was historically used and than look at what has replaced it in the last thirty years. This is most obvious in the 1979 Book of Common Prayer which replaced the 1928 book of Common Prayer in the Episcopal Church. Historic Christian Liturgies have doctrinal precision in the way speak about the incarnation of our Lord and his sacrifice on the cross. The precision has been at best, watered down in most modern liturgies. 
The only new liturgy I am aware of that did not follow this trend is the one adopted by the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod.
Hymns historically taught good theology. Now we have touchy feel good gospel songs.


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## VictorBravo (Nov 3, 2012)

I actually think postmodernism is a positive development. At its best, it completely undoes modernism, which was blatantly man-centered. 

Just 40 years ago, the modernist mindset was still confident that man could do quite well on his own. He was on track to master everything. Now that confidence seems almost laughable.

Of course, postmodernism offers nothing of substance to replace modernism. I think at some point not too far away, more thoughtful postmodernists will get bored with it and realize that they indeed are nothing, which would not be a bad starting point for revival.


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## Unoriginalname (Nov 4, 2012)

VictorBravo said:


> I actually think postmodernism is a positive development. At its best, it completely undoes modernism, which was blatantly man-centered.
> 
> Just 40 years ago, the modernist mindset was still confident that man could do quite well on his own. He was on track to master everything. Now that confidence seems almost laughable.
> 
> Of course, postmodernism offers nothing of substance to replace modernism. I think at some point not too far away, more thoughtful postmodernists will get bored with it and realize that they indeed are nothing, which would not be a bad starting point for revival.


I agree, I think while postmodernism is not perfect it does restore some level of humility to what we can know for certain.


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## Claudiu (Nov 4, 2012)

VictorBravo said:


> I actually think postmodernism is a positive development. At its best, it completely undoes modernism, which was blatantly man-centered.
> 
> Just 40 years ago, the modernist mindset was still confident that man could do quite well on his own. He was on track to master everything. Now that confidence seems almost laughable.
> 
> Of course, postmodernism offers nothing of substance to replace modernism. I think at some point not too far away, more thoughtful postmodernists will get bored with it and realize that they indeed are nothing, which would not be a bad starting point for revival.



I agree. I remembering talking about this when we met. I saw the positive aspects of post-modernism at Berkeley. However, I fear for what may follow it...something along neo-barbaric lines perhaps.


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## tommyb (Nov 4, 2012)

The social and religious effects of post-modernism are well examined in the book of Judges. A time when there "was no king and everyone did what was right in their own eyes" (the crux of post-modern rejection of moral absolutes and truth in general) - The ugly results of such a nihilistic philosophy are laid out in graphic detail in Judges. Yet in the midst of all this social ugliness, decadance and depravity there was a girl name Ruth........and God's plan moved forward.


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## Peairtach (Nov 4, 2012)

VictorBravo said:


> I actually think postmodernism is a positive development. At its best, it completely undoes modernism, which was blatantly man-centered.
> 
> Just 40 years ago, the modernist mindset was still confident that man could do quite well on his own. He was on track to master everything. Now that confidence seems almost laughable.
> 
> Of course, postmodernism offers nothing of substance to replace modernism. I think at some point not too far away, more thoughtful postmodernists will get bored with it and realize that they indeed are nothing, which would not be a bad starting point for revival.



There's some kind of recognition in postmodernism that Man's fallen, fallible and finite reason hasn't delivered Truth.


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## Bill The Baptist (Nov 4, 2012)

Peairtach said:


> VictorBravo said:
> 
> 
> > I actually think postmodernism is a positive development. At its best, it completely undoes modernism, which was blatantly man-centered.
> ...



Because of this failure on the part of modernism to provide any real truth, postmodrnism has concluded that there is no truth. The challenge for the church is to show that there is indeed truth, true truth as Francis Schaeffer used to say.


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## kvanlaan (Nov 4, 2012)

Postmodernism has also made great inroads in undoing the fabric of orderly society in general. For example: the recent Wall Street and mortgage scandals - when our schools and society proclaims there is no absolute truth, then every man does what is right in his own eyes, since there is no right or wrong in the abstract, only the law, and that can be manipulated easily enough.


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## yeutter (Nov 4, 2012)

Unoriginalname said:


> ... I think while postmodernism is not perfect it does restore some level of humility to what we can know for certain.


The problem with post-modernism is not the blatant denial of the truth that we had in modernism. Post-modernism denies the possibility of knowing with certainty.


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## MW (Nov 4, 2012)

I cannot accept that there are such things in reality. The terms "modernism" and "postmodernism" require us to identify views of rationality, which have had a regular appearance in the history of human thought, with specific periods in western thought. It is unhistorical, to say the least. It is unethical in so far as it requires us to concede that our present era has moved beyond modernism, which is blatantly false. If one examines any of the sciences it is obvious that "rationalism" still reigns supreme. And it is unbiblical in that it requires us to redefine the human condition in terms which the gospel of Jesus Christ cannot address unless it is "deconstructed" or "reinterpreted" to speak to an anti-rationalist mindset.


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## Claudiu (Nov 5, 2012)

armourbearer said:


> It is unethical in so far as it requires us to concede that our present era has moved beyond modernism, which is blatantly false. If one examines any of the sciences it is obvious that "rationalism" still reigns supreme.



But can't we say that the postmodern picks and chooses as he see's fit. When it comes to science he will allow reason to stand, but when it comes to ethics relativism will rule. In other words, man is the arbiter. 

Call it what you will, modernism, or the movement that tried to explain everything through reason is not in its heyday anymore. Even in the scientific community, we can see the effects of postmodernism, or the movement in reaction to the high rationality of modernism. In some circumstances, even science has been affected by the current philosophy that pervades society.


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## arapahoepark (Nov 5, 2012)

Claudiu said:


> Even in the scientific community, we can see the effects of postmodernism, or the movement in reaction to the high rationality of modernism. In some circumstances, even science has been affected by the current philosophy that pervades society.


Can you provide examples? I'd like to see how nutty it is.


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## hammondjones (Nov 5, 2012)

arap said:


> Claudiu said:
> 
> 
> > Even in the scientific community, we can see the effects of postmodernism, or the movement in reaction to the high rationality of modernism. In some circumstances, even science has been affected by the current philosophy that pervades society.
> ...



Well, there's this famous example, semi-related:
Sokal affair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

With regard to mathematics (this also covers humanistic mathematics, too):
http://www.ias.ac.in/resonance/Nov2005/pdf/Nov2005Reflections.pdf


> Postmodernism considers all types of knowledge with equal skepticism and believes that science is predicated on faith and may be regarded as a religion.
> 
> Postmodernism rejects the role of reason as a unique tool for discovering truth and says there are no universal truths valid for all people. Any individual conclusion may not be true for others.



Medicine:
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/Pharmacology/dc-bits/holmes-deconstruction-ebhc-06.pdf


> Because ‘regimes of truth’ such as the evidence-based movement
> currently enjoy a privileged status, scholars have not only a scientific duty, but also an
> ethical obligation to deconstruct these regimes of power.


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## MW (Nov 5, 2012)

Claudiu said:


> armourbearer said:
> 
> 
> > It is unethical in so far as it requires us to concede that our present era has moved beyond modernism, which is blatantly false. If one examines any of the sciences it is obvious that "rationalism" still reigns supreme.
> ...



Yes, people pick and choose, but that is why I would say there is no such thing as a post-modernist in reality, just as there was no genuine modernist, because people pick and choose rationality and anti-rationality as it serves their purpose.


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## J. Dean (Nov 5, 2012)

armourbearer said:


> Claudiu said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, people pick and choose, but that is why I would say there is no such thing as a post-modernist in reality, just as there was no genuine modernist, because people pick and choose rationality and anti-rationality as it serves their purpose.
> ...


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## Claudiu (Nov 5, 2012)

armourbearer said:


> Claudiu said:
> 
> 
> > armourbearer said:
> ...



I see what you are getting at.


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## jwright82 (Nov 6, 2012)

Well we don’t really live in a postmodern society any more. Postmodernism is in some ways a thing of the past. Postmodernism was an almost exclusively critical movement. The problem with a critical movement is that it is almost always negative and offers no positive way of thinking about things. 

We are moving past this in our society. So we must now start talking about what comes after postmodernism. People are using postmodern critiques to criticize movements they disagree with but will contradict these same standards when it comes to their own beliefs.


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## J. Dean (Nov 10, 2012)

And in fairness, even as Christians we all drag a little bit of the world in with us when we come to saving faith. That's just part and parcel of the Christian walk: our new life will always have a shade of the Old Adam still clinging to it. That's not an excuse to do nothing about it, but it's also a reminder that a "perfect church" in the sense of one unfettered by any sort of residual sinfulness will never exist this side of eternity.


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