# too many pastors, not enough pulpits



## jjraby

I heard somewhere that for every open pulpit there are 75 applicants. Is.this true? What is.everyone's.experience regarding this?


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## Contra_Mundum

Lots of men are unqualified, although they may think they are. That's a % of your applicants.

Some men are hoping they are suited to one pulpit or another, and God must make that plain.

Some men are not happy where they are, and they see an opening, and think the grass is greener on the other side.

How many men went to seminary, without any support in the idea from any of the church? Now they are graduates, and are trying to find a job. Somehow the church has to figure out which of the many resumes they receive they should pursue.

Actually, it is easy for a church to eliminate a good 50% of their applicants, or more. It's getting down to the last three men or so thats hardest.

I waited four years after seminary for my first call. God was getting me ready, and the church I went to serve. I kept waiting, applying, praying, growing. If God means you to be in his service, no power of flesh or spirit will keep it from happening.

Trust the Lord.


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## LawrenceU

That might be the case in the evanjellyfish world, but I've not heard about it from conservative / reformed circles. It may be the case within some denominations. I know that just a few months ago there was a thread that stated just the opposite in the RPCNA. I think that is the right group. I know that among Reformed Baptist churches there can be a time trying to find qualified ministers. That may hearken more to the issue than one might think if the statistic you cite is accurate. I have met quite a few men, both Baptist and Presbyterian, who have been through the schooling, but really don't need to be in leadership in a church. Education is not all that is required of a minister.


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## O'GodHowGreatThouArt

"There's a pulpit on every street corner." - Paul Washer


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## Montanablue

> Lots of men are unqualified, although they may think they are. That's a % of your applicants.



When I began attending my church, we did not have a pastor - they were just beginning the search. We had a huge number of applicants, but about 3/4 were in no way qualified (and our church, because of its location, did not have extremely high standards, we knew a lot of ppl wouldn't want to move here).


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## Mushroom

> That might be the case in the evanjellyfish world, but I've not heard about it from conservative / reformed circles.


That worries me about my own denom. We've had over 100 applicants to our search commitee. I hope that is not an indication the PCA has finally slipped fully into the evanjellyfish pond!


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## toddpedlar

You know, if this were the case in the conservative Reformed churches, we'd probably have a Reformed church nearby. We don't though. If there are OPC/PCA/URC men out there that would like NE Iowa, I'm happy to tell them in what town they should plant a church!


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## jjraby

Your comment about waiting four years is the reason for my question. I am currently thinking about pursuing my teaching certificate while in Seminary. It will prolong my seminary stay but i have heard from several people that they did not get a call for a while after seminary.


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## Kevin

The average length of a vacancy in Eastern Canada presbytery is 5 years. I have read recently that in the PCA we have 3 men with out a call for each vacancy.

A big part of the problem is that many men that think that they are called are unwilling to move. Or their wife is unwilling to move.


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## Scott1

Brad said:


> That might be the case in the evanjellyfish world, but I've not heard about it from conservative / reformed circles.
> 
> 
> 
> That worries me about my own denom. We've had over 100 applicants to our search commitee. I hope that is not an indication the PCA has finally slipped fully into the evanjellyfish pond!
Click to expand...

 
One way to look at this is quite flattering!

---------- Post added at 07:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:10 PM ----------




Kevin said:


> The average length of a vacancy in Eastern Canada presbytery is 5 years. I have read recently that in the PCA we have 3 men with out a call for each vacancy.
> 
> A big part of the problem is that many men that think that they are called are unwilling to move. Or their wife is unwilling to move.



Part of the I Timothy 3 examination is whether the officer's wife, if married, consents to his serving. Here, every elder and deacon is asked that and if she is not in agreement, he may not serve.

This is one of many, many factors God uses and we try to discern who God is calling and qualifying for office at that time. An exemplary, not perfect, but exemplary life is required- even if the candidate is qualified in other ways.


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## SemperEruditio

As with any other employment if you are willing to move, not care where you end up, and not care about the salary then you will have no problem getting a job. I don't think that there are a shortage of pulpits but a shortage of a match between the expectations of the committees vs the applicants.


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## MarieP

Wouldn't the model of the plurality and parity of elders help alleviate this situation? There are so many churches where one pastor does all the work. They need the help!

This also brings up the issue of whether or not a call to ministry necessarily implies full-time, paid ministry.


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## Wayne

Good insight, and well said, Frank.

There are a bunch of vacant pulpits in the PCA, for instance, but many, many of those churches can't pay what many of these men expect or need.


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## Grimmson

MarieP said:


> Wouldn't the model of the plurality and parity of elders help alleviate this situation? There are so many churches where one pastor does all the work. They need the help!
> 
> This also brings up the issue of whether or not a call to ministry necessarily implies full-time, paid ministry.


 
I couldn’t agree with you more, and the need of many more men to assist the pastor and keep him theologically accountable is great. I always have the concern that the one pastor per church model creates little popes in each church. And the need to care for God’s people is great, particularly when the main teaching pastor has his own family to take care as he is sheparding. The pastor can easily be overwhelmed in his responsibilities in visitation, counseling, and preparing his sermon; while also be needed to care for his family, and in some of our circles expected to be enlarging and home-schooled, at home at the same time.

Which is why we dont have to many, if any we do not have enough in my opinion. We are not using what we have now at the pulpit effectively and efficiently.

---------- Post added at 05:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:08 PM ----------




Wayne said:


> Good insight, and well said, Frank.
> 
> There are a bunch of vacant pulpits in the PCA, for instance, but many, many of those churches can't pay what many of these men expect or need.


 
Part of that reason of need is because we place our seminary students in debt and the fact we unofficially require that they be married; instead of going for the single pastor, who is willing to sacrificially give to the church and has more free time to provide service to the church, compared to a married man.


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## SemperEruditio

The pay is tricky because if a man wants to keep his options open then he needs to attend an accredited seminary. With the price of education, especially graduate education, this means most of these men take out loans to pay for it. Add to that the loans for undergrad or whatever and presto you have men who have to make more than most churches can afford to pay. Couple that with many churches not willing to pay the new graduate equivalent to a salary commensurate with his education (which actually means his debts) and we have empty pulpits.

Then there are those men who are willing to move and do whatever to answer God's call and yet no one seems to want them. It might be a personality thing but I say, like Bruce that if God has called then nothing and no one will stop it.

It really is so crazy how we in American Christianity have it set up. We've institutionalized the church in that we want men from the "big schools" because we know they will be Reformed enough and free from heresy but yet are not willing to pay the price tag. Yet you have men who are Reformed but lack the pedigree and get put through the ringer and then never chosen. The men I know in this situation know the sovereignty of God waaaaaay better than I do.

BTW...there is a reason why there is glut of chaplains in the military...just sayin...


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## KMK

> LBC 26:8 A particular church, gathered and completely organized according to the mind of Christ, consists of officers and members; and the officers appointed by Christ to be *chosen and set apart by the church (so called and gathered)*, for the peculiar administration of ordinances, and execution of power or duty, which he intrusts them with, or calls them to, to be continued to the end of the world, are bishops or elders, and deacons.
> 
> LBC 26:11 Although it be incumbent on the bishops or pastors of the churches, to be instant in preaching the word, by way of office, yet the work of preaching the word is not so peculiarly confined to them but that others also gifted and fitted by the Holy Spirit for it, *and approved and called by the church*, may and ought to perform it.



If the confession is correct, then there should be about an equal number of pulpits as there are preachers.


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## MarieP

KMK said:


> LBC 26:8 A particular church, gathered and completely organized according to the mind of Christ, consists of officers and members; and the officers appointed by Christ to be *chosen and set apart by the church (so called and gathered)*, for the peculiar administration of ordinances, and execution of power or duty, which he intrusts them with, or calls them to, to be continued to the end of the world, are bishops or elders, and deacons.
> 
> LBC 26:11 Although it be incumbent on the bishops or pastors of the churches, to be instant in preaching the word, by way of office, yet the work of preaching the word is not so peculiarly confined to them but that others also gifted and fitted by the Holy Spirit for it, *and approved and called by the church*, may and ought to perform it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the confession is correct, then there should be about an equal number of pulpits as there are preachers.
Click to expand...

 
Meaning, each church has more than one "pulpit," right! Not necessarily more than one "paid" pulpit, but multiple men called to the ministry. Not all are involved to the same degree or have the same exact gifts, but they are all called to be pastors and shepherd the flock of God.


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## KMK

MarieP said:


> KMK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LBC 26:8 A particular church, gathered and completely organized according to the mind of Christ, consists of officers and members; and the officers appointed by Christ to be *chosen and set apart by the church (so called and gathered)*, for the peculiar administration of ordinances, and execution of power or duty, which he intrusts them with, or calls them to, to be continued to the end of the world, are bishops or elders, and deacons.
> 
> LBC 26:11 Although it be incumbent on the bishops or pastors of the churches, to be instant in preaching the word, by way of office, yet the work of preaching the word is not so peculiarly confined to them but that others also gifted and fitted by the Holy Spirit for it, *and approved and called by the church*, may and ought to perform it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the confession is correct, then there should be about an equal number of pulpits as there are preachers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Meaning, each church has more than one "pulpit," right! Not necessarily more than one "paid" pulpit, but multiple men called to the ministry. Not all are involved to the same degree or have the same exact gifts, but they are all called to be pastors and shepherd the flock of God.
Click to expand...

 
The confession indicates that 'ordinarily' it is the church (so called and gathered) which approves and calls preachers. Why would the church approve and call preachers and then not give them an opportunity to preach? As was mentioned above, there are plenty of street corners for these approved and called preachers. 

However, the confession does not say that all those who are approved and called for preaching are approved and called to receive a full time salary!


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

My wife and I are willing to move just about anywhere. Be it in the middle of nowhere or the middle of somewhere. Even working 1/2 time if need be. Yellowknife to Bermuda. Tijuana to Charlottetown. (though would prefer somewhere where the summers are mild and the winters are vigorous ). 

Just my anecdotal experience over the last 18 months but I have applied to over 50 pulpits in various NAPARC denominations, 3 or 4 CCCC churches, and 4 or 5 EPC churches. All but 3 of the NAPARC pulpit committees that turned down my application (of those who responded to my follow up e-mails/letters) told me the primary reason they were not considering me was that they had received so many applications (average was more than 50) from men who already were Ordained and had pastoral experience in NAPARC churches that they were not going to even look at first-time call men. 

For what that is worth.


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## Notthemama1984

> Part of that reason of need is because we place our seminary students in debt


 
I would couple this with wrong priorities. If we agree that


> When a man is called to labor as a teaching elder, it belongs to his
> order, in addition to those functions he shares with all other elders, to feed
> the flock by reading, expounding and preaching the Word of God and to
> administer the Sacraments. As he is sent to declare the will of God to
> sinners, and to beseech them to be reconciled to God through Christ, he is
> termed ambassador. As he bears glad tidings of salvation to the ignorant and
> perishing, he is termed evangelist. As he stands to proclaim the Gospel, he is
> termed preacher. As he dispenses the manifold grace of God, and the
> ordinances instituted by Christ, he is termed steward of the mysteries of God. PCA BCO 8-5


, it would seem to me a priority should be given to the teaching elder when it comes to finances. Unfortunately this is not always the case. For example, there is a church in my denomination that is struggling to keep its doors open. They have not had a pastor for a few years due to some conflicts going on there, but also because they cannot pay more than 12 grand a year. It would be one thing if this was all they can afford, but when you consider the fact that the church financially supports several missionary families, I feel the 12 grand is a sad state.

I have also seen other situations where the pastor is paid minimally and instead of increasing his pay when the church grows and can afford it, the church spends the money on some program or on the new hip music minister (which means the next round of money goes to paying the band). Maybe I missed it, but I am not seeing in any of our literature where it states that a music minister (just using the term for clarity sake. I know some disagree with its use and office) somehow dispenses the graces of God. In fact, in many cases the music minister is not ordained and thus is incapable of administering the sacraments. So the financial priority of giving to someone who cannot even give the sacraments which we believe is one of the marks of a true church, seems insane to me. I am not against paying a music minister or people who can play instruments, I just think priority should be given to the pastor. Once a legitimate full-time pay can be achieved, then start paying for other things.

My solution to the situation is this.

1. Churches should create larger scholarship funds for seminary students (especially for those denominations that would prefer someone to attend a school that does not allow students to take federal loans. The entire education has to come out of pocket. That is tough). 

2. Financial priority should be given to the Teaching elder.

This is just my early morning thinking going on.

Oh also, if you do not want to pay a full-time salary, you cannot expect a full-time level of work. I think it is wrong and sinful. I grew up watching churches run pastors into the ground by expecting them to work a full-time job, spend 40+ hrs a week on church stuff, and somehow maintain a perfect family life. In the end something gets dropped and it usually is the family.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Wow Bolivar. Excellent stuff.


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## Notthemama1984

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Wow Bolivar. Excellent stuff.


 
Everyone gets lucky once in a while.


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## White Knight

I've heard this statistic before and I have an odd question. This is going to sound like a broad stroke and I don't mean to offend anyone. But if God calls a man to be a minister, wouldn't God also provide the church for him to minister to? 

For some reason, I can't help but look at this statistic and say that the shepards that don't have a flock were mistaken. I need someone to edify me. Why would God call someone without given him someone to shepard? This seems to me to be contradictory, which God isn't. Needless to say, since no one has said something similar, I'm in the wrong. Help needed.


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## MarieP

White Knight said:


> I've heard this statistic before and I have an odd question. This is going to sound like a broad stroke and I don't mean to offend anyone. But if God calls a man to be a minister, wouldn't God also provide the church for him to minister to?
> 
> For some reason, I can't help but look at this statistic and say that the shepards that don't have a flock were mistaken. I need someone to edify me. Why would God call someone without given him someone to shepard? This seems to me to be contradictory, which God isn't. Needless to say, since no one has said something similar, I'm in the wrong. Help needed.


 
Dear brother, I am with you on this one, as are (I believe) KMK and Grimmson. And I don't think it's coincidence that we all happen to be Baptists- our Presbyterian brethren on the board hold to a different view than we do- we say that highest ecclesiastical authority under Christ is the leadership of each local church and that it is the local church that is used by the Holy Spirit to separate out men for the ministry.. Our Presbyterian brethren would disagree.

So that's where some of my consternation at this comes from. I don't want to create a debate on the issue and hijack the thread, but I can't help but think this is an issue.


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## Grillsy

White Knight said:


> I've heard this statistic before and I have an odd question. This is going to sound like a broad stroke and I don't mean to offend anyone. But if God calls a man to be a minister, wouldn't God also provide the church for him to minister to?
> 
> For some reason, I can't help but look at this statistic and say that the shepards that don't have a flock were mistaken. I need someone to edify me. Why would God call someone without given him someone to shepard? This seems to me to be contradictory, which God isn't. Needless to say, since no one has said something similar, I'm in the wrong. Help needed.


 
Life is never that simple. Simply because a person is without a call for some time (even years) does not necessarily mean that God has not called him. God works things out in His own time. We cannot look into the future and we cannot know His mind.

It could be a case that God is further preparing the man that he is called.


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## White Knight

MarieP said:


> White Knight said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've heard this statistic before and I have an odd question. This is going to sound like a broad stroke and I don't mean to offend anyone. But if God calls a man to be a minister, wouldn't God also provide the church for him to minister to?
> 
> For some reason, I can't help but look at this statistic and say that the shepards that don't have a flock were mistaken. I need someone to edify me. Why would God call someone without given him someone to shepard? This seems to me to be contradictory, which God isn't. Needless to say, since no one has said something similar, I'm in the wrong. Help needed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear brother, I am with you on this one, as are (I believe) KMK and Grimmson. And I don't think it's coincidence that we all happen to be Baptists- our Presbyterian brethren on the board hold to a different view than we do- we say that highest ecclesiastical authority under Christ is the leadership of each local church and that it is the local church that is used by the Holy Spirit to separate out men for the ministry.. Our Presbyterian brethren would disagree.
> 
> So that's where some of my consternation at this comes from. I don't want to create a debate on the issue and hijack the thread, but I can't help but think this is an issue.
Click to expand...

 
If that is the case, then would someone mind given me a concise statement that would increase my knowledge? Either way, I'm not smart enough to debate, so it would prove fruitless, I'm afraid. 

---------- Post added at 01:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:26 PM ----------




Grillsy said:


> White Knight said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've heard this statistic before and I have an odd question. This is going to sound like a broad stroke and I don't mean to offend anyone. But if God calls a man to be a minister, wouldn't God also provide the church for him to minister to?
> 
> For some reason, I can't help but look at this statistic and say that the shepards that don't have a flock were mistaken. I need someone to edify me. Why would God call someone without given him someone to shepard? This seems to me to be contradictory, which God isn't. Needless to say, since no one has said something similar, I'm in the wrong. Help needed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Life is never that simple. Simply because a person is without a call for some time (even years) does not necessarily mean that God has not called them. God works things out in His own time. We cannot look into the future and we cannot know His mind.
> 
> It could be a case that God is further preparing the man that he is called.
Click to expand...

 
Ok, I've found my problem. If a church hasn't called you to preach, how can you say you were called to preach?

Didn't mean to lessen your statement. Very true words.

Ok, I've reread the OP twice. I'm sorry. I hijacked the thread. I bow out.


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## KMK

I don't think the problem is that there are too many preachers out there. The problem is there are too many churches with itching ears and preachers who are willing to oblige.


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## Marrow Man

Marie, I would add one caveat to your last post: in Presbyterianism the local congregation still calls the pastor. Presbyteries still have oversight over pastors (e.g., I am a member of my presbytery, but not my local congregation, although I believe some presbyterian bodies handle this differently) and examine them to make sure they are qualified, etc. But as far as calling pastors, the method is very much like that in congregational churches, only with the added presbytery layer.


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## greenbaggins

It is helpful to remember here that there are really two parts to a call, the internal and the external. Lots of people go wrong in over-emphasizing one over the other. The Lord places a desire in the heart of a man to want to be a pastor. This internal call, however, needs to be confirmed by the external call, which is the church. That external call looks different among the different stages of the process. For someone just starting out, for instance, it looks like a church confirming that a man has the necessary gifts to be a pastor. For a man in seminary, it looks like being under care of a Presbytery (in the Presbyterian system, obviously!). For the man who has received an official call from a church, it looks like a Presbytery examining and confirming that he has the necessary tools to carry out the duties of the pastorate. The internal call also undergoes development, but it does not change as drastically. The desire remains there, although it may be augmented over time, as the man starts finding out all the things that are required for being a pastor. My desire, for instance, started with the simple idea of helping people understand their Bibles better. In seminary, though, that idea expanded to include the means of grace as the way of ministering to people no matter what their condition. 

It is very dangerous to ignore either the external or the internal call when it comes to being a pastor. I remember my pastor being frustrated with a Reformed seminary to which he applied. They kept on asking him about his call. He said that he was an ordained minister in the PCA, and that the Presbytery had his call. They said, "but what about your call?" As if the external call was not part of the call at all. Without the external call, many young men can go at this with delusions of grandeur, not having anything close to the necessary gifts. It would be well for the church to take this aspect of its calling much more seriously: to affirm or gently to deny the internal callings of young men. 

However, without the internal call, a man will very quickly burn out, as there is no fire within him to preach no matter what the cost to himself. Without the internal call, any opposition will quickly silence him into saying what people want to hear. Both are needed.


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## DMcFadden

And, as for pastors without pulpits, there are some who have served faithfully and (evidently) effectively, but who experience involuntary termination. They would, by definition, be "without pulpits" but not in the same category as one who graduates from seminary and cannot find anyone interested in calling him. There are many reasons why congregations ditch their pastors, few of which deal with blatant moral failure.


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## jambo

A year ago we were vacant and had very little serious interest. But then again we are a small church that could not afford a lot. I wonder how many of those "75 pastors" would have been willing to come to a church like ours.


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## SolaScriptura

jambo said:


> A year ago we were vacant and had very little serious interest. But then again we are a small church that could not afford a lot. I wonder how many of those "75 pastors" would have been willing to come to a church like ours.


 
Stuart - I'm not trying to blast you, but your post strikes a nerve to me because it is illustrative of an attitude I've encountered among some, mainly folks in small churches.

I really detest the insinuation that love of money or professional pride, or some other ulterior motive, keeps people from small (and usually poor) churches. A minister is not a money chasing hireling merely because he has real financial obligations that must be met. Families cost money to feed and clothe and keep sheltered. And what's more, few things set me off more quickly than when some church acts like the would-be minister's attitude towards the pay package that obviously won't enable ends to be met should be "the Lord will provide." Talk about pseudo-sanctified sounding recklessness! 

One thing I tell people on a regular basis is this: Presbyteries may (and do) err. Inward sense of calling may be misconstrued. The bottom line is that no minister, no matter how gifted he may be or well received he may be by God's people, has God's unchanging and infallible Word declaring to him that he must be a pastor. But I do have God's infallible Word telling me - and every other man - that he has the responsibility to provide for his family. 

A minister should not be trying to get rich. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing necessarily wrong with being well paid... but chasing money should be unheard of amongst Christ's undershepherds. At the same time, ministers should not be accused of chasing money just because they have financial obligations to be met.

That said, I for one am leaning more towards doing my 20 - not more, just enough to get my retirement - and then using that income to pay the majority of my family's living costs so that I can be freed to accept a position in a rural environment or maybe plant a church so that I can create my own problems rather than inherit someone else's. 

Oh, and one more thing... it really irritates me when a church keeps their pastor on the verge of poverty and then they boast about how much they send off to the mission field. Take care of your own pastor, people!


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## greenbaggins

Ben, your rant reminded me of Ambrose Bierce's definition of the Bible: an excellent resource to apply to the situation of one's neighbor. Churches can often apply Scripture's warnings about "love of money" to their pastor, when they completely ignore passages such as "the laborer is worthy of his hire." Gotta be a balance in there somewhere.


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## LawrenceU

And, don't forget that some congregations have enough money to not only fully support four overseas missionary families, give $10,000 per year to a Bible translation ministry, give generously to local indigent support ministries, contract out the replacement of commercial flooring that rarely sees traffic every three years, replace perfectly functioning lighting in order to update it, pay some one $100.00 per week to mow about 2,000 SF, maintain almost 250,000 in a capital improvement account; BUT cannot afford to pay its pastors a living wage. Don't ask me how I know


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## jjraby

*op*

So. Do you guys think pursueing my teaching certificate would be a smart thing. It would be s minimal commitment.


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## Mushroom

I've seen both sides of this part of the issue. I've been in a Church where the Pastor was very well-paid to the point of being a debilitating strain on the congregation while stating that his calling was more as worship and music leader than counselor, so that the over-worked Ruling Elders weren't able to keep up with the shepherding needs. I've been in a Church where the Pastor was a faithful shepherd over God's people who ran himself to the ground while the pay he received was an embarassment to vote on, and whose wife had to work to just put groceries on the table. There does have to be a balance.


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## jambo

SolaScriptura said:


> jambo said:
> 
> 
> 
> A year ago we were vacant and had very little serious interest. But then again we are a small church that could not afford a lot. I wonder how many of those "75 pastors" would have been willing to come to a church like ours.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stuart - I'm not trying to blast you, but your post strikes a nerve to me because it is illustrative of an attitude I've encountered among some, mainly folks in small churches.
> 
> I really detest the insinuation that love of money or professional pride, or some other ulterior motive, keeps people from small (and usually poor) churches. A minister is not a money chasing hireling merely because he has real financial obligations that must be met. Families cost money to feed and clothe and keep sheltered. And what's more, few things set me off more quickly than when some church acts like the would-be minister's attitude towards the pay package that obviously won't enable ends to be met should be "the Lord will provide." Talk about pseudo-sanctified sounding recklessness!
> 
> One thing I tell people on a regular basis is this: Presbyteries may (and do) err. Inward sense of calling may be misconstrued. The bottom line is that no minister, no matter how gifted he may be or well received he may be by God's people, has God's unchanging and infallible Word declaring to him that he must be a pastor. But I do have God's infallible Word telling me - and every other man - that he has the responsibility to provide for his family.
> 
> A minister should not be trying to get rich. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing necessarily wrong with being well paid... but chasing money should be unheard of amongst Christ's undershepherds. At the same time, ministers should not be accused of chasing money just because they have financial obligations to be met.
> 
> That said, I for one am leaning more towards doing my 20 - not more, just enough to get my retirement - and then using that income to pay the majority of my family's living costs so that I can be freed to accept a position in a rural environment or maybe plant a church so that I can create my own problems rather than inherit someone else's.
> 
> Oh, and one more thing... it really irritates me when a church keeps their pastor on the verge of poverty and then they boast about how much they send off to the mission field. Take care of your own pastor, people!
Click to expand...

 
Apologies and I can understand your rant. Perhaps it wasn’t the most thought out of posts.

I did not intend to imply that Godly men are only in the ministry for financial gain or to enjoy the recognition of being a pastor of a large church. However not all pastors are as Godly as you might wish them to be. I am assuming that the figure of 75 applicants per vacancy is across the denominations. If there are 75 pastors applying for each vacant church you can be sure that number would cover the whole spectrum of pastors and their spiritual qualifications, or indeed lack of. 

I have met some pastors who just are not interested in small churches whilst I have also met extremely gifted and humble pastors who remain in small struggling churches and have turned down the invitation to go to larger more prestigious churches.

A number of years ago our church was vacant and we had a lot of interest but during our most recent vacancy we had very little interest, despite the church growing by nearly 20% in between the two periods of vacancy. During this first period I felt we did have a high calibre of interested people. During our second period the opposite was the case. There was little interest and most who did express an interest were discounted on receipt of their CV or having met with them to discuss the vacancy. 

I have felt that as a small church we have tried to provide as best we can for our pastor and it has been the concern of the whole church to ensure that the pastor is as comfortable as possible and free from financial worry. And I feel we have succeeded in caring for our pastor in this way.

Trust you enjoyed your rant. I enjoy a good rant myself.


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## SolaScriptura

jambo said:


> Trust you enjoyed your rant.


 
I did, Sir. Thank you for "listening" as it were.


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## KMK

Ben, maybe this should be your new avatar:


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## sdesocio

I definitely think part of the problem is guys going through seminary without any external verification of their calling. Students need to be in the local church asap. Men who float will not be prepared after seminary. 

(It was only after my first summer internship that I was entirely sure of my internal calling.) 
I love the PCA's requirement for a year long internship it creates a situation where a student can be honest with himself, and were session can also confirm or not confirm his internal call. 

I have heard the statistic, I wonder how it changes when un ordained men are removed. In our presbytery there are several Assistant Pastor positions, and I know several guys who have gone into a support role in the local church.

Part of the issue is fear and pride. I fear that if the first church that Im a senior pastor at flounders under my ministry Ill be a goner. There is also a decent amount of "Im ready to be the senior" pride which makes young men stumble in asst. pastor positions.
Ive been the asst. pastor for a few years at a PCA church in Pittsburgh, and sensed the call to plant so instead of apply Im fund raising. =)


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## sonlight

I see a trend out there of a lot of smaller chuches going away. I'm in a very small independent sovereighn grace Baptist church. From what I hear, there are a lot of older pastors going home to be with the Lord and not many younger ones coming in to replace them. There are several churches out there that have no pastor at all. What our pastor did before he retired was work another regular job to pay the bills but now he is retired so he doesn't have to do that anymore. I thnik other pastors are doing that as well. But if the church takes in a lot of money and is supporting mission works and a whole list of other things but not paying their pastor, that would be like having your truck painted but letting it run out of oil so that the engine blows. 
Also, I think that as with any field, a piece of paper from a big name school doesn't mean that you know what you are doing. It doesn't show character or experience or any of the qualities that you really want in an appplicant. With a pastor, you want quite a few things. You want somebody that has the knowledge, the ability to deliver it, the compassion to minister to peoples' needs and patience to teach them, amongst other things. Most of all, the man must be called by God and he must preach the truth no matter how many or whose ears he sets on fire in the process. Too many preachers these days either intentionally or unintentionally try not to say things that might offend and a bit of ear tickling goes on. I want a guy that gets up there and preaches like it is his last sermon on earth. Years ago, I knew this old retired preacher. He told me once that he got rolling on a good old fasioned fire and brimstone you all better wake up sermon. He said I knew they hadn't fallen asleep because half of them left by the time I was done. They all came back the next week he said... most of them anyway. I don't know what denomination he was now I can't remember, but I would sure love to have hear him preach.
I think preaching, really good preaching is a gift from God. Sure the school helps but not everybody that comes out of one is called. I am sure they all think they are, but God has other plans for some of them.


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## SRoper

How many applications does the average candidate submit? If it's around 75 is there really a problem?


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## Willem van Oranje

This is a surprising turn of events as less than two years ago there were articles being written about how there was going to be a shortage of pastors to fill pulpits in Reformed churches, and so they (for example, the OPC) began new, proactive recruitment efforts.


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## Grillsy

What kind of recruiting efforts?


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Where have you seen this?


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## VictorBravo

jjraby said:


> So. Do you guys think pursueing my teaching certificate would be a smart thing. It would be s minimal commitment.


 
Having a credentialed skill is never a bad thing--especially if it will not derail you. Just keep your eye on the prize and knees on the floor, as it were.


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## Willem van Oranje

Grillsy said:


> What kind of recruiting efforts?


 
I'm thinking of such new efforts/events as the Timothy Conferences and the OPC Summer Institute. The first of the Timothy conference in 2008 had been introduced as a measure to prepare for the retirement of the current generation of ministers, seen as being just around the corner.


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## William Price

O'GodHowGreatThouArt said:


> "There's a pulpit on every street corner." - Paul Washer


 
This is the true solution.


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## Scott1

Chaplainintraining said:


> Part of that reason of need is because we place our seminary students in debt
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would couple this with wrong priorities. If we agree that
> 
> 
> 
> When a man is called to labor as a teaching elder, it belongs to his
> order, in addition to those functions he shares with all other elders, to feed
> the flock by reading, expounding and preaching the Word of God and to
> administer the Sacraments. As he is sent to declare the will of God to
> sinners, and to beseech them to be reconciled to God through Christ, he is
> termed ambassador. As he bears glad tidings of salvation to the ignorant and
> perishing, he is termed evangelist. As he stands to proclaim the Gospel, he is
> termed preacher. As he dispenses the manifold grace of God, and the
> ordinances instituted by Christ, he is termed steward of the mysteries of God. PCA BCO 8-5
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> , it would seem to me a priority should be given to the teaching elder when it comes to finances. Unfortunately this is not always the case. For example, there is a church in my denomination that is struggling to keep its doors open. They have not had a pastor for a few years due to some conflicts going on there, but also because they cannot pay more than 12 grand a year. It would be one thing if this was all they can afford, but when you consider the fact that the church financially supports several missionary families, I feel the 12 grand is a sad state.
> 
> I have also seen other situations where the pastor is paid minimally and instead of increasing his pay when the church grows and can afford it, the church spends the money on some program or on the new hip music minister (which means the next round of money goes to paying the band). Maybe I missed it, but I am not seeing in any of our literature where it states that a music minister (just using the term for clarity sake. I know some disagree with its use and office) somehow dispenses the graces of God. In fact, in many cases the music minister is not ordained and thus is incapable of administering the sacraments. So the financial priority of giving to someone who cannot even give the sacraments which we believe is one of the marks of a true church, seems insane to me. I am not against paying a music minister or people who can play instruments, I just think priority should be given to the pastor. Once a legitimate full-time pay can be achieved, then start paying for other things.
> 
> My solution to the situation is this.
> 
> 1. Churches should create larger scholarship funds for seminary students (especially for those denominations that would prefer someone to attend a school that does not allow students to take federal loans. The entire education has to come out of pocket. That is tough).
> 
> 2. Financial priority should be given to the Teaching elder.
> 
> This is just my early morning thinking going on.
> 
> Oh also, if you do not want to pay a full-time salary, you cannot expect a full-time level of work. I think it is wrong and sinful. I grew up watching churches run pastors into the ground by expecting them to work a full-time job, spend 40+ hrs a week on church stuff, and somehow maintain a perfect family life. In the end something gets dropped and it usually is the family.
Click to expand...

 


> PCA Book of Church Order
> 
> FORM OF GOVERNMENT 21-6.
> 
> The candidate having answered these questions in the affirmative,
> the presiding minister shall propose to the church the following questions:
> 
> 1. Do you, the people of this congregation, continue to profess
> your readiness to receive _________________, whom you
> have called to be your pastor?
> 2. Do you promise to receive the word of truth from his mouth
> with meekness and love, and to submit to him in the due
> exercise of discipline?
> 3. Do you promise to encourage him in his labors, and to assist
> his endeavors for your instruction and spiritual edification?
> ....
> 4. *Do you engage to continue to him while he is your pastor that
> competent worldly maintenance which you have promised, and
> to furnish him with whatever you may see needful for the honor
> of religion and for his comfort among you?*



Vows are important, an ordinance of worship, and ought not be taken casually.

It's interesting how the congregation, takes a vow to competently support the Pastors they call.

And in the PCA, at least, the congregation votes on, as part of the congregation confirming the call, a compensation amount. The general amount is known to members at the time of the call- as they will be supporting it.

---------- Post added at 06:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:47 PM ----------




SRoper said:


> How many applications does the average candidate submit? If it's around 75 is there really a problem?


 
It's interesting. Knowing one cannot draw general conclusions from one instance or second hand observation,

I often hear of churches having difficulty filing their pulpits.

My observation here has been 75+ applicants immediately, about 4 of which are "top tier" candidates. The focus promptly goes to the latter, then the search committee works back to session to determine the appropriate compensation for the final candidate, subject to approval of that call by the congregation.


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## TimB

For what it's worth, I'll share my own anecdotal evidence for the contention that there are more guys looking than there are positions available. I was ordained in the PCA to a position that was created with a "shelf-life" of 2 years. (The idea was to give men out of seminary pastoral experience, the opportunity to get ordained, and then they could move on to more a permanent position elsewhere.) Since (actually before) my time there officially came to an end, I have been diligently searching for a pastoral position (assistant, associate, or solo) for about 2.5 years now. My wife and I were married in Oct. of 2008, so my search slackened for a short while after that but soon resumed intensely. I have been looking primarily (but not exclusively) within the PCA. I have made it onto many "short lists," had wonderful conversations and visits with search committees, and so on. We even thought we were finally about to move to accept a call, but our plans changed at the last minute when that presbytery very narrowly decided not to accept my transfer, sending us back to the drawing board. (But that's another story.)

But so far "always a bridesmaid, never a bride." I've been working at local coffee shops in the mean time, filling pulpits occasionally and administering the sacraments regularly at our church while we search and wait. We have had to move in with my parents (who are local) in order to save money, and now we've been blessed with our first child. I can assure you that we are not being picky when it comes to churches or locations. Sure , we have very specific ideas about the kind of churches, locations, philosophies of ministry, etc. that appeal to us more than others. But we really do prayerfully consider just about anything we hear of. (Though I will say that I probably only hear back from one church for every 10-15 that I apply to; I understand that churches are inundated with resumes, but a brief "we received your inquiry" message would be nice.)

I hope this doesn't sound too much like a pity party. We have been so amazingly blessed and cared for in so many ways throughout this time, but it's difficult not to get discouraged at times. I don't think the PCA or the seminaries are to blame for this situation of "candidate over-supply." If I had the gifts for church planting I would have been out there "making my own work" long ago. Yet, despite the long wait, I've never been more sure of my internal call to pastoral ministry within the local church, and I've had that calling regularly confirmed by those around me.


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## Willem van Oranje

TimB said:


> For what it's worth, I'll share my own anecdotal evidence for the contention that there are more guys looking than there are positions available. I was ordained in the PCA to a position that was created with a "shelf-life" of 2 years. (The idea was to give men out of seminary pastoral experience, the opportunity to get ordained, and then they could move on to more a permanent position elsewhere.) Since (actually before) my time there officially came to an end, I have been diligently searching for a pastoral position (assistant, associate, or solo) for about 2.5 years now. My wife and I were married in Oct. of 2008, so my search slackened for a short while after that but soon resumed intensely. I have been looking primarily (but not exclusively) within the PCA. I have made it onto many "short lists," had wonderful conversations and visits with search committees, and so on. We even thought we were finally about to move to accept a call, but our plans changed at the last minute when that presbytery very narrowly decided not to accept my transfer, sending us back to the drawing board. (But that's another story.)
> 
> But so far "always a bridesmaid, never a bride." I've been working at local coffee shops in the mean time, filling pulpits occasionally and administering the sacraments regularly at our church while we search and wait. We have had to move in with my parents (who are local) in order to save money, and now we've been blessed with our first child. I can assure you that we are not being picky when it comes to churches or locations. Sure , we have very specific ideas about the kind of churches, locations, philosophies of ministry, etc. that appeal to us more than others. But we really do prayerfully consider just about anything we hear of. (Though I will say that I probably only hear back from one church for every 10-15 that I apply to; I understand that churches are inundated with resumes, but a brief "we received your inquiry" message would be nice.)
> 
> I hope this doesn't sound too much like a pity party. We have been so amazingly blessed and cared for in so many ways throughout this time, but it's difficult not to get discouraged at times. I don't think the PCA or the seminaries are to blame for this situation of "candidate over-supply." If I had the gifts for church planting I would have been out there "making my own work" long ago. Yet, despite the long wait, I've never been more sure of my internal call to pastoral ministry within the local church, and I've had that calling regularly confirmed by those around me.


 
Given the ages of your average pastor nowadays, it's bound to clear up soon, in 10-15 years tops. There will be a lot of old pastor's stepping down from their usual duties. Then the glut of applicants will be seen as a blessing. They will be badly needed. I think part of what is going on is that pastors are staying in the pulpit longer than they had planned since their nest eggs have shrinked due to the economic downturn.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Thing with those Pastors retiring is (and again this is anecdotal for sure) I have found several small churches that could be (and should be) looking for a Pastor but are satisfied with a semi-retired man or other kind of Stated/Regular Supply filling the pulpit each week and really are not that interested in filling the vacancy. Whether that is "right" or not is up for debate.


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## Grillsy

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Thing with those Pastors retiring is (and again this is anecdotal for sure) I have found several small churches that could be (and should be) looking for a Pastor but are satisfied with a semi-retired man or other kind of Stated/Regular Supply filling the pulpit each week and really are not that interested in filling the vacancy. Whether that is "right" or not is up for debate.



Perhaps this has something to do with the somewhat modern trend of downgrading the purpose of the ordained office.


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## Jack K

I suspect it is not a matter of churches disrespecting the office, or not wanting pastors. I'm guessing it's just the current economy.

Churches are often affected more than businesses by an economic downturn. Given what's happening to the job market in general, we should not be surprised that churches are reluctant to hire, especially for pastoral positions which require significant expense to retain. As pastors retire or otherwise leave a church, many congregations are simply deciding not to fill vacancies until the economy (and with it, giving) improves.

I haven't seen any stats or surveys to back this up. But based on what has happened in the past to churches in down economies, it would be surprising not to see a situation like the 75-1 applicants-to-jobs ratio mentioned in the OP. We really need to wait for the economy to improve before we can see if there are deeper issues at work here.


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## PuritanCovenanter

I have a totally vacant beautiful United Church of Christ building a half a block down from my house. They are so irrelevant here that the church died. I mean they are dead. I can post pics later. There is no Reformed Church in my town. There are obviously Reformed leaning people here. Also, I preach the gospel to many around me. Yes, they know I am not RCC. A RCC is across the street. But the UCC has lost its bearings. Not sure it ever had them. They have always denied the authority of Scripture. I can post pics of this beautiful building. It is empty. Someone should just step up maybe. This is something I have been praying for a number of years.


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

Jack K said:


> I suspect it is not a matter of churches disrespecting the office, or not wanting pastors. I'm guessing it's just the current economy.
> 
> Churches are often affected more than businesses by an economic downturn. Given what's happening to the job market in general, we should not be surprised that churches are reluctant to hire, especially for pastoral positions which require significant expense to retain. As pastors retire or otherwise leave a church, many congregations are simply deciding not to fill vacancies until the economy (and with it, giving) improves.
> 
> I haven't seen any stats or surveys to back this up. But based on what has happened in the past to churches in down economies, it would be surprising not to see a situation like the 75-1 applicants-to-jobs ratio mentioned in the OP. We really need to wait for the economy to improve before we can see if there are deeper issues at work here.


 
It could be exacerbated by the downturn but the glut of pastors and churches choosing Stated Supply over filling a vacancy is not a recent turn of events.


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## Willem van Oranje

Jack K said:


> I suspect it is not a matter of churches disrespecting the office, or not wanting pastors. I'm guessing it's just the current economy.
> 
> Churches are often affected more than businesses by an economic downturn. Given what's happening to the job market in general, we should not be surprised that churches are reluctant to hire, especially for pastoral positions which require significant expense to retain. As pastors retire or otherwise leave a church, many congregations are simply deciding not to fill vacancies until the economy (and with it, giving) improves.
> 
> I haven't seen any stats or surveys to back this up. But based on what has happened in the past to churches in down economies, it would be surprising not to see a situation like the 75-1 applicants-to-jobs ratio mentioned in the OP. We really need to wait for the economy to improve before we can see if there are deeper issues at work here.


 
You may be right, but hard times is a real sorry reason not to call a pastor. This should be at the top of the list before family vacations, gas for holiday travel, ice cream, and Christmas gifts. People should be saving their every last mite to raise the funds required to call a pastor. 

I suppose plan B would be merging with another small church or drafting a joint call. I know in the olden days in the Carolinas it was not uncommon to find a Baptist Church and a Presbyterian church with the same pastor, worshipping together, using the same building but with separate order.

---------- Post added at 11:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:27 PM ----------




PuritanCovenanter said:


> I have a totally vacant beautiful United Church of Christ building a half a block down from my house. They are so irrelevant here that the church died. I mean they are dead. I can post pics later. There is no Reformed Church in my town. There are obviously Reformed leaning people here. Also, I preach the gospel to many around me. Yes, they know I am not RCC. A RCC is across the street. But the UCC has lost its bearings. Not sure it ever had them. They have always denied the authority of Scripture. I can post pics of this beautiful building. It is empty. Someone should just step up maybe. This is something I have been praying for a number of years.


 
I always thought it would be a cool idea for a solidly Reformed brother to get his foot in one of those old historic churches which has become liberal. The only downside is that he might have to join that denomination, which he may not be able to do in good conscience, depending on the circumstances. But at least with the UCC, possibly unlike the PCUSA, RCA, and ECUSA, they have a flat enough structure that you could actually be called by a UCC congregation as their pastor without having to join the UCC yourself. 

This is essentially what God used to bring back our congregation from having been over the liberal cliff forty years ago to having come back to its roots in reformed theology through men like Bruce Gordon and Allen Tomlinson. (Although if my knowledge is correct, we never went over to the UCC, even when we were "liberal". We've been independent ever since the time of the merger of the old congregational association with other churches which created the UCC.)


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