# How does a Reformed church grow?



## shackleton

With my background, the way a church grows is pretty much the "Rick Warren" way. The first thing I think of is go door to door, talk to people and invite them to a bible study. Now with a new Reformed perspective I am wondering how a church should grow according to biblical standards. 
Upon visiting many Reformed churches I am noticing that most have 100 or less people in them, even in large metroplotian areas. First of all, how does a new church plant get to any number, 25, 50, 100+. How many people are ideal before the pastor becomes overwhelmed and can't effectively pastor?


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## NaphtaliPress

Grow? What's that? My pastor says he's writing a book, _Pastoring a small reformed church, and keeping it that way._


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## dannyhyde

Erick,

Dr. Scott Clark just posted on his blog about this here.


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## KMK

shackleton said:


> With my background, the way a church grows is pretty much the "Rick Warren" way. The first thing I think of is go door to door, talk to people and invite them to a bible study. Now with a new Reformed perspective I am wondering how a church should grow according to biblical standards.
> Upon visiting many Reformed churches I am noticing that most have 100 or less people in them, even in large metroplotian areas. First of all, how does a new church plant get to any number, 25, 50, 100+. How many people are ideal before the pastor becomes overwhelmed and can't effectively pastor?



I am not aware of any reformed rules against going door to door or talking to people or inviting them to a bible study. I don't think these three things should be considered PD distinctives. PD distinctives are things like less preaching and deregulated principle of worship.


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## Herald

From what I can gather from my time on the PB, Reformers see evangelism taking place within the church by an ordained minister. I'm not buying that but wouldn't that be even more impetus for brining people into the church so that they may hear the gospel? If that means door-to-door, street preaching or any other similar attempt, should it matter?


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## shackleton

By grow I mean 0, church plant, to any one other than the pastor and his wife and kids. Not Joel Osteen, this is what I was used to.


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## shackleton

dannyhyde said:


> Erick,
> 
> Dr. Scott Clark just posted on his blog about this here.



Good article. I don't suppose you know where is kansas city that is? That is my home town and some of those names sound familiar. 

Like he stated in the article, most of the churches around here are what I term "Walmart" churches, they move into town and put all the "Ma and Pa" churches out of business. When asked where their church growth came from they state that it is not new converts, it is people who left their small 100 or less member churches, and went for the glamour of the big church. One pastor of a growing chruch stated that he was frustrated that no one was getting baptised even though their church was growing exponential. My wife and I called his church "The American Idol" church, because that is what it reminded me of. It was a lot of mediocre singing and mediocre preaching, but I guess that is what people wanted. 

Another point from the article. I come from a Pentecostal background. Since leaving I have visited a fair number of churches trying to be "hip" with good music. They are playing the good music, but act like they either don't know what to do or are to scared they will speak in tongues, so they just stand there and clap. It reminds me of the move "The Jerk," where Steve Martin is adopted by a black family and he is standing on the porch stomping and clapping out of time with the music. Maybe non-Pentecostals should stick with hymns.


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## Calvibaptist

dannyhyde said:


> Erick,
> 
> Dr. Scott Clark just posted on his blog about this here.



This is an absolutely great article! Every pastor should be required to read this and contemplate what he is saying.


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## R. Scott Clark

Hi Erick,

It was, by turns, Hope Reformed, Walnut Creek Presbyterian, and now, Northland Reformed Church. When I was pastor, we were at 3901 N. Wayne, just west of I-29/I-35 and Russell Road about 5 minutes (or less) north of downtown KCMO.

Cheers,

rsc




shackleton said:


> dannyhyde said:
> 
> 
> 
> Erick,
> 
> Dr. Scott Clark just posted on his blog about this here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good article. I don't suppose you know where is kansas city that is? That is my home town and some of those names sound familiar.
Click to expand...


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## CatechumenPatrick

dannyhyde said:


> Erick,
> 
> Dr. Scott Clark just posted on his blog about this here.



That was an amazing article, thank you for linking to it. I especially like "What about evangelism? Rather than making it something that we "do" it is something that we are." Come to think of it, I have benefited immensely from everything Dr. Clark has written on his blog and on PB.


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## 44jason

I am no "expert" on church growth. But I do pastor a Reformed church that I planted with the help of two other elders six years ago.

The three of us pastors moved to California with no prospective members, no core groups, no demographic work, or anything else the "church growth" manuals advised us to have. We just felt that God wanted us to start a biblical church, our home churches agreed to support us, and few other churches agreed to support us financially as well, and off we went.

Growth has been slow but steady.
In six years we have trained and ordained two more pastors who now minister with us on our pastors' council. We have another pastor in training.
We've knocked on doors, mailed mailers, made phone calls and visits, kept a good website, bought radio and newspaper and yellowpages ads, and anything else that we could think of to announce to people our existence.
But most of all, we have found that God has just blessed us in spite of us.
We have about 150 members and about 250 people visit our church regularly.
I am usually shocked when anyone visits the second time.
I preach expositionally (recently been two years in John), we have a strong biblical counceling ministry, we have many bible studies for all ages (kids and adults), we have a warm and loving fellowship of members, we have a healthy process of church discipline, we evangelize and baptize those who repent and believe in Christ, and have a very decent worship team of musicians and singers who sing a lot of music from "In Christ Alone" to hymns to stuff written yesterday.
People are attracted to our strong leadership, distinctly sound doctrine, friendliness, and high view of all things spiritual.
Though I have an accent from my Southern Louisiana roots, I dress casual on Sundays, preach from the ESV, and often use very Calvinistic and Reformed terminology. The people find it... "refreshingly miserable." That is actually a quote from a guy who said, "I am so tired of churches that just preach these feel good happy face sermons. Your sermons are refreshingly miserable. They address the reality of this world."
Like I said, I am surprised they come back.
But the church just continues to grow both numerically and spiritually.
And I would be remiss if I didn't give worthy due to the strength of the pastors at our church. God has surrounded me with men much more equipped than myself. There wisdom and fortitude, patience and love as pastors makes our church a "safe-haven" for many Christians who are extremely suspicious of the "tossed about" churches of our day.
These men, all equal in authority, share responsibilities, keep one another accountable, and know their sheep.
I don't know if I am just the eternal optimist, but I believe if you build it biblically -- God's people will come.


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## JOwen

A Reformed Church grows like this...


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## VaughanRSmith

Nametags?


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## 44jason

I only have three kids and sometimes need name tags.


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## Southern Presbyterian

JOwen said:


> A Reformed Church grows like this...



 to that, brother!


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## sotzo

my two cents:

1. articulate/emphasize law and gospel so that every "man" can understand....this may require us to give up words that make us comfortable in our reformed sense of identity like "propitiation" and "John Calvin" 

2. teach people the drama and power of the sacraments

3. charge ruling elders with getting into people's lives to disciple rather than administrating

4. be a blessing to the local community, in the name of Jesus, in tangible, earthy ways


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## MW

Exagorazo said:


> Nametags?



I'm sure he meant the smiles.


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## Covenant Joel

Well, having been in several Reformed churches that did not grow (numerically for sure, and the spiritual growth was lacking in many areas as well), I can say one thing that many Reformed churches (Presybterian that is, I have no experience in the Reformed baptist world), big and small, seem to have a problem in the friendliness area. You walk in and you don't feel welcome. If you don't feel like there is the possibility of fellowship, it's unlikely you'll return and stay. This is not a church growth method--just simple common sense and principles of biblical fellowship that would be good for Reformed churches to make more of a habit.

Note: My experience is obviously limited to just that, my experience. This is not to say that all Reformed churches suffer from this. But I have come across many that do.


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## Puritan Sailor

http://biblebased.wordpress.com/200...l-presbyterian-church-and-how-are-they-built/

Here's another helpful article.


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## Philip A

Dr. Clark wrote in the article:



> We don't need two years, we need twenty, but that's a different post.



If that's a different post, please write it soon!

Why do we always assume that a Reformed church should always be growing? If a church is faithful in it's ministry, why do we think there's something wrong if it _doesn't_ grow? It's funny how we can criticize evangelical and Purpose Driven churches who are "all about the numbers", but if we always assume that a church should be growing, and that there's something wrong if it isn't, _then we are no different_. *Is there no pastor who can stomach being committed to the same congregation of people for more than a few years?* I've seen a pattern in more than a few churches claiming to be "Reformed" where they start up, get going for a few years, and then the pastor panics because he doesn't see any growth, thinks he's doing something wrong, and starts changing things around (like the worship and preaching), and gets to the point where he is willing to drive away committed sheep for the sake of new people. What, does a pastor get bored? Is he not capable of ministering to the needs of the same people year after year? Is he incapable of running more than just the first two miles of the marathon? Is the congregation worth nothing more to him than his car, which he'll trade in for a new model in a few years?


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## cupotea

Could someone please paste Dr.Clark's article on PB? in China we couldn't gain access
to blogspot.

Google should send their PR people to Beijing more frequently.


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## kvanlaan

can't get to it...

Anything on blogspot or wordpress doesn't show up in China. Posting in its entirety would be great!

Xie xie, xiong di!


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## Covenant Joel

Philip A said:


> Dr. Clark wrote in the article:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We don't need two years, we need twenty, but that's a different post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If that's a different post, please write it soon!
> 
> Why do we always assume that a Reformed church should always be growing? If a church is faithful in it's ministry, why do we think there's something wrong if it _doesn't_ grow? It's funny how we can criticize evangelical and Purpose Driven churches who are "all about the numbers", but if we always assume that a church should be growing, and that there's something wrong if it isn't, _then we are no different_. *Is there no pastor who can stomach being committed to the same congregation of people for more than a few years?* I've seen a pattern in more than a few churches claiming to be "Reformed" where they start up, get going for a few years, and then the pastor panics because he doesn't see any growth, thinks he's doing something wrong, and starts changing things around (like the worship and preaching), and gets to the point where he is willing to drive away committed sheep for the sake of new people. What, does a pastor get bored? Is he not capable of ministering to the needs of the same people year after year? Is he incapable of running more than just the first two miles of the marathon? Is the congregation worth nothing more to him than his car, which he'll trade in for a new model in a few years?
Click to expand...


While I am sympathetic to what you are saying, I come from personal experiences with churches with this attitude, and it was very damaging both to the church and to me. 

What I don't mean: Growing in numbers should be the priority of the local church, and the pastor should adapt whatever he has to in order to gain that goal.

What I do mean: Churches should be passionately committed to their mission in the world--to extend the kingdom into the world. Whether or not this results in huge numerical increases is not the point. But in my experience (which is limited, granted), I have found that Reformed churches who take the above philosophy are not engaging in God's mission in the world as they should.


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## caddy

http://dannyhyde.squarespace.com/th.../idea-lets-try-every-way-but-christs-way.html



*Idea: Let's Try Every Way But Christ's Way? *

Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 at 08:24AM by 

R. Scott Clark in Recovering the Reformed Confession, The Mission: Reaching and Teaching | Comments Off 
Thanks to a link by Justin Taylor I read an article by Nancy Morganthaler this morning that is disturbing on so many levels I hardly know where to begin. 
I begin with confession: I tried and failed miserably "to do the church growth thing" in various ways in a my congregation in Kansas City from 1987-1993. We were a small congregation and I had the impression that I had been called as the Assistant, then Associate pastor and then as pastor to "grow the church." So I tried to do and get the congregation to do as much of the "church growth" stuff as we could do. I became an "Evangelism Explosion" trainer and taught classes in EE. I did it myself, knocking on every door in our community more than once. We handed out fliers. By the way, thank you to those who went out on a cold St Patrick's Day, getting your hands green because the ink wasn't dry on the fliers. Thanks to Mark Hanson for standing in supermarket parking lots and getting chased out (!) with me. We did Project Jericho, bringing teenagers down from South Dakota and Wisconsin to see the city and do more door-to-door evangelism. We tried VBS. The kids worked so hard and they couldn't help but cry when no one showed. I read Tim Keller's book on diaconal ministry so we tried that. I spent two years meeting some "colorful" folks, leading bible studies and delivering food and medicine, but only a few people came to church out of it. I did "The Phone's for You" - it's a long story and



I met some interesting people on the phone -- it was back when people weren't yet ready to murder telephone solicitors--but no one came. We did Today's Good News -- a telephone answering message that generated calls via an ad in the personals. We sent out 400 newsletters every month (that you Malinda for folding and sorting them!) to those who had left their addresses on the machine. We sent out evangelistic audio cassettes with a mini-documentary about the church on one side and a modified EE presentation on the other. A few people came. We held bible studies all over the metro area. Our motto was: "If you'll hold it, I'll teach it." For a while we did a weekly radio show on one of the local Christian stations. If the web had existed we would have tried that. We tried, and failed, to plant another congregation. We remodeled the church building. The congregation had bought an old Standard service station and remodeled and in about 1990-91 we remodeled (thanks to everyone who helped and especially to Ed who did much of it by himself!). By the time we were done, the place looked really nice. I pushed for the addition of contemporary worship music -- the congregation pushed back. We had a brief song service before the stated service. We watched videos produced by the Christian Business Men's Association on friendship evangelism. Despite all that (or because of it?) when I left the congregation in 1993 we were about the same number as when I came. It was, to some degree, a different group of people, but the numbers were more or less unchanged. _Almost_ as a providential rebuke to all of that busy-ness, the congregation later sold the building (it's now a really nice looking used car lot), went into a temporary location and later built a nice facility out by the airport where the size of the congregation doubled. 

What does it all mean? I tried to adapt "the Reformed message" to all the different methods being retailed then by the church growth gurus. I was desperate. Whenever pastors get together they discussion three things: buildings, bodies, and budgets. I didn't have any of them. The question, which I've asked many times, "How is your congregation doing?" was code for, "How many people have you coming in the front door?" (Don't get me started on "front door" v. "side door" v. "back door," oh my.) The one thing I didn't try was being confessionally Reformed. 
Were there practical problems? Sure. An old service station is a bad place to try to plant a congregation, but the truth is that we were, like most Reformed congregations, a commuter church organized around doctrines and practices, not an amorphous neighborhood church and we were probably never going to become a neighborhood congregation. 
One of the biggest problems is that we accepted the premise that "church growth" or "church planting" or even "church re-planting" can be "done quickly." No, it can't, not if we're going to plant and grow confessionally Reformed congregations. We don't need two years, we need twenty, but that's a different post.
Second, I know nothing about Nancy Morganthaler. I haven't read this sort of literature in a long time. I haven't looked at it much since I went off to grad school in '93. From what I can tell, based in this piece by Morganthaler, the more things have changed, the more they have stayed the same. Apparently there was some sort of "revolution" in the 90s where evangelicals told themselves that they could win the unchurched simply by having cool services where people were blissed out. So they hauled in equipment, got rid of the suits and ties, and played watered down versions of pop music. Apparently it, like crack cocaine, worked briefly but now the high has worn off and they're looking for the next big thing. 
It turns out that all the "unchurched" people who were supposed to be coming to the new and improved, even more hip seeker-senstive services, weren't. I could have told you so. To give credit where it's due, Jim Dennison told me in 1985 that all the "growth" that folks were touting was nothing more than "sheep shifting." He was right. When I was trying this stuff the average American congregation was less than 200 and most of them were less than 100. I don't know what the numbers are now, but the trend then (and Morganthaler's essay suggests it's only continued) was to see smaller congregations folding and feeding the mega churches.
Morganthaler' answer is to abandon the "worship" community. She's closed her once cutting edge website and she's now touting the emerging emphases. 
Same old song, new chorus. It's a false dilemma. We don't have to choose between worship and evangelism. We can have both, but in doing both we need to be faithful to our principles and trust the Lord of the church for the outcome. 
What did I learn in Kansas City? 
1. I'm not the Holy Spirit. That should be pretty obvious, but the pressure to "grow the church" is powerful and it's easy to forget that only the Spirit softens hearts and raises dead sinners to life and draws them to Christ.
2. Don't confuse the law with the gospel. I can't tell you how many times I preached the gospel from Exodus or John or 1



Corinthians only to contradict everything I had just said by putting the congregation under the law. Remember when Lucy moved the football just as Charlie Brown tried to kick it? 
3. Be confessionally Reformed. We tried being re-packaging the Reformed faith in contemporary evangelical garb. We failed and we're not the only ones. In the years since I've seen a lot of congregations try the "contemporary" thing. It's a little sad. Middle class (mostly white) Presbyterian and Reformed congregations just don't do the P&W thing very well. We're not hip. Even if we've worked out a rationale for it, we still have a memory of another kind of worship and maybe even a conscience that there's something strangely wrong when a Reformed service is indistinguishable from what Rick Warren or Mars Hill or the local AoG is doing.
The tragedy of trying to be what we aren't is not fundamentally that we can't do it well. It's that we shouldn't be trying; that in so doing we've shelved the very thing we have to offer a lost world: a community gathered around the Gospel and the sacraments. Our worship services, if we conduct them according to our principle (see Heidelberg Catechism Q. 96 or Westminster Confession ch. 21) are inherently evangelical and evangelistic. Every Reformed worship service announces the law and the gospel. It declares salvation and rest and righteousness in Christ. The sacraments are the gospel made visible. In true worship, we are called and drawn by God himself to meet and worship the living God in Christ his Word. What else do sinners fundamentally need?
What about evangelism? Rather than making it something that we "do" it is something that we are. There's nothing new about this view but it's still true. Evangelism is what we do on the Sabbath, in worship. 
Yes, but what about _evangelism_? Oh, you mean "witness." Christ's people are called by the Word to give witness to _the_ faith and to _their_ faith. That has to occur in the daily lives of Christ's people as they interact with their friends, loved ones, neighbors, and co-workers. It means showing Christ-like love in concrete situations and it means speaking the truth in those situations whenever the opportunity arises.
Will it work? Yes and no. It probably won't "work" (as the gurus define effectiveness) but see principle #1. We're not the Holy Spirit. Will God the Spirit accomplish his purposes as we trust him and worship and witness according to his Word? Yes. I guarantee it. Will you like it? Next question. If we're still just sheep-shifting, and all the gimmicks really haven't made a dent in reaching the lost, then perhaps, just maybe, we confessional Reformed folk should try one more thing: being ourselves.


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## cupotea

Thank you Steven for pasting the artcle.Reading.


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## kvanlaan

Very well done, thank you.


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## Anton Bruckner

I think that Reformed Churches need to starting stealing Evangelicals away from their churches. Many Evangelicals are just waiting for the scales to fall from their eyes to see what true holiness and fear is. Calvinistic churches and Christians tend to live in a closed community shut out from the greater Christian community. Those who come to Calvinism usually stumble across it by reading some book.


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## Philip A

Covenant Joel said:


> While I am sympathetic to what you are saying, I come from personal experiences with churches with this attitude....



Sorry, I wasn't very clear; that's not the attitude I was suggesting. I wasn't saying it should be either/or, but both/and. Reformed churches are to gather, defend, and preserve God's elect (Heidelberg Q. 54). What I am saying is that there is a widespread plague in American Evangelicalism, _that includes_ many churches that are called "Reformed", that are willing to sacrifice the latter two for what they think will accomplish the first. Their attitude is "do what you have to do to grow the church, even if it means getting rid of the faithful sheep you already have charge over."

I also challenge the assumption that we should always see Reformed churches grow if they are faithful to their charge (including the charge to gather).


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## Covenant Joel

> Sorry, I wasn't very clear; that's not the attitude I was suggesting. I wasn't saying it should be either/or, but both/and. Reformed churches are to gather, defend, and preserve God's elect (Heidelberg Q. 54). What I am saying is that there is a widespread plague in American Evangelicalism, _that includes_ many churches that are called "Reformed", that are willing to sacrifice the latter two for what they think will accomplish the first. Their attitude is "do what you have to do to grow the church, even if it means getting rid of the faithful sheep you already have charge over."



I think we are in agreement then. I'm not a fan of some Reformed churches that I visit that are barely distinguishable from any evangelical, but I guess my experience makes more just as sensitive to the other side of the spectrum. But you put it well.



> I also challenge the assumption that we should always see Reformed churches grow if they are faithful to their charge (including the charge to gather).



I think I would say yes and no that. Yes, because in principle I agree with you. But no, because I think oftentimes Reformed churches don't grow precisely because they forgot the both/and and don't embrace the whole spectrum of their mission. But that does not change the general principle.


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## kvanlaan

Dr. Alan Cairns would likely call the extraneous efforts "going down to Egypt for help."


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## KMK

Slippery said:


> I think that Reformed Churches need to starting stealing Evangelicals away from their churches.



I think it would be best to wait on the HS to do that. But I understand your frustration.

Keon, if you were a pastor, how would you handle someone leaving the local PD chruch to come to yours... Would you admonish him to go back to his pastor and try to work things out?


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## py3ak

In actual fact, don't Reformed churches grow by having babies?


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## Herald

py3ak said:


> In actual fact, don't Reformed churches grow by having babies?




Ruben - I suppose they do, but what implication does that view of church growth have on evangelism? If we view church growth through a strictly familial model then we have an insular church that may have absolutely no relevance in its community. To be sure this has happened in some Reformed churches. Should a church have relevance in its community? Should the gospel be taken to people who would otherwise not come into a church? I am not advocating Finneyistic revivals, but certainly there must be ways for churches to reach out beyond their four walls.


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## kvanlaan

But we are not called to be 'relevant', we are not called to conform ourselves to the world/community around us so that they will come and listen. We are called to preach the gospel. He that has ears will hear.

This is not to say that we should be completely insular; the Great Commission doesn't allow it. BUT why do we need programs, etc. that, while they may influence the world positively (_may_, not will), our contact with the world will definitely influence us, because we are trying to play their game on their turf to wrap around our words.

A church of 250 members has 250 mission programs built right in. In the grocery stores, in the workplace, as we go about our lives, _these_ are our mission fields. That is rubber-hitting-the-road evangelism.

Churches full of joyful families _are_ relevant and a witness to the world that children are a blessing (the Church) and not a burden (the World). It is Christ's love shining through without getting into 'marketing' the Gospel in a worldly way and without 'going down to Egypt'.


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## Herald

> This is not to say that we should be completely insular; the Great Commission doesn't allow it. BUT why do we need programs, etc.



Kevin - your opinions are appreciated. It seems to be that by saying "[not] completely insular" that you're not criticizing an insular approach. Don't misunderstand me, I am not advocating a programmed approach to ministry, that is if you don't consider preaching the word of God outside the four walls of a church building as a program. But when I read of people driving up to an hour (one way!) to church I have to scratch my head and wonder what is going on. 

I don't believe "sidewalk" or front porch conversions are the norm. Ideally a sinner will sit under the preaching of God's word and be called to "the repentance that leads to life." But I didn't exactly decide to wander into a church because I had nothing better to do. Someone else urged me to come to church. Is a one-on-one invitation a program? How about visiting prisons, nursing homes, or orphanages? Open-air preaching...different...not normative these days, but it is proclaiming the gospel. What I am not advocating are glitzy or dishonest attempts at getting a persons interest only to give them a Christian "mickey." Kevin - perhaps we are on the same page?


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## kvanlaan

Bill, to me I see our time with the world (ideally) to be spent in witnessing to them. Thus I _am_ fairly insular but can't take it too far without getting away from Scripture. At work is where the line blurrs the most. To not teach class because I am busy witnessing is to dishonor a contract. But to work with someone all year and not speak of my faith is (to me) sin.

I don't think that these workplace conversations will lead to workplace conversions. I am here to plant a seed and answer questions that seem to invariably pop up. I am not here to drag co-workers off to be baptized (I know that's not what you're advocating!)

I am only here to pass out mustard seeds.



> But when I read of people driving up to an hour (one way!) to church I have to scratch my head and wonder what is going on.



Agreed. But think - if you have a pentecostal church here or a reformed church an hour's drive away, I would _walk_ to the church an hour's drive away. I know that's not the case that you're referring to, but where do we draw the line?



> Someone else urged me to come to church. Is a one-on-one invitation a program? How about visiting prisons, nursing homes, or orphanages? Open-air preaching...different...not normative these days, but it is proclaiming the gospel. What I am not advocating are glitzy or dishonest attempts at getting a persons interest only to give them a Christian "mickey." Kevin - perhaps we are on the same page?



A one-on-one invitation is, to me, a believer in motion. That's the 1/250th of the mission program that I would endorse. I think we may be on the same page indeed, Bill! Woohoo! 

My concern is that 'programs' often begin in a benign and well-meaning enough manner but if they don't work, they are diluted until they appear to be working (by which time there is little Gospel left, in most cases) - people are indeed coming in, but what are they hearing?

But yes, I would agree, there's too often a crossing over to the 'frozen chosen' Matthew 28-less 'gospel'.


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## blhowes

Covenant Joel said:


> Well, having been in several Reformed churches that did not grow (numerically for sure, and the spiritual growth was lacking in many areas as well), I can say one thing that many Reformed churches (Presybterian that is, I have no experience in the Reformed baptist world), big and small, seem to have a problem in the friendliness area. You walk in and you don't feel welcome. If you don't feel like there is the possibility of fellowship, it's unlikely you'll return and stay. This is not a church growth method--just simple common sense and principles of biblical fellowship that would be good for Reformed churches to make more of a habit.
> 
> Note: My experience is obviously limited to just that, my experience. This is not to say that all Reformed churches suffer from this. But I have come across many that do.


My experience is much more limited than yours, having only been to one Presbyterian church. The folks there were very welcoming, introducing themselves and chatting after the service. I'm sure my experience is probably the norm and yours is the exception (based on ... umm ... personal anecdotal data).

In the churches, though, where you experienced the less-than-friendly welcome, I wonder if there's any connection between the reformed teachings and the unfriendliness. Do you doubt it too?


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## shackleton

py3ak said:


> In actual fact, don't Reformed churches grow by having babies?



I don't know if you are serious or being fesicious. I have had reformed people tell me this, asking, "How would the church grow if we did not have children?" My first thought was, "Well...Through evangelism."


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## py3ak

I am simply making an observation. Reformed families often have many children; and in some cases, at least, that is where *most* of the numerical growth in a given congregation is coming from. It is certainly not a bad thing; but I would be sad if that were the only sort of growth in a congregation _because of a lack of Scriptural effort on the part of that congregation_.


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## KMK

kvanlaan said:


> Churches full of joyful families _are_ relevant and a witness to the world that children are a blessing (the Church) and not a burden (the World). It is Christ's love shining through without getting into 'marketing' the Gospel in a worldly way and without 'going down to Egypt'.


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## KMK

It could also be that Reformed churches don't grow because they actually preach about fornication, and God's sovereignty, and male headship, and tithing etc. Most people do not want to hear about those kinds of things and do not return. And the local Purpose Driven church is NOT preaching about these things so these people have an alternative. Why should they go to a reformed church when the PD church down the street never brings up sin?


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## AV1611

Wythe County Calvinist said:


> JOwen said:
> 
> 
> 
> A Reformed Church grows like this...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> to that, brother!
Click to expand...


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## Jerusalem Blade

Wonderful thread...speaks to my heart...and situation of the church we are planting.

After being in this city (Limassol, Cyprus) for about three years, and studying the church situation (attending one assembly for about a year, then another for two years, and visiting many others), I was so grieved at the "gospel" being taught in the various places, and the condition of many of the believers I knew, and most of all, that the glory of God's grace was not being proclaimed, that I purposed to plant a church here that proclaimed and taught the Reformed gospel.

In November we'll have been open for a year. Besides my wife and I, and my co-elder and his wife (both he and I elderly: 60, 65), we have about six core people committed to us -- two others have recently been deported as their work visas expired. We have a couple who are not saved, to whom we are very close, and regularly get together with.

One of the main problems is that the language of this country is not English, but Greek! And that those who join us are generally either British ex-pats or English-speaking foreign nationals here on temporary work visas. We have an Arabic congregation in the evenings on Sunday, though it seems that may be dwindling.

I am very encouraged reading (in this thread) that the most important thing is to keep our Reformed distinctives unsullied, and to trust the Lord to add to our number. Still and all, we do seek ways to reach out to the lost and hurting in this land. I was reading a while back (in preparation for teaching on the Lord's Prayer) that when we say, "Hallowed by Thy name" we do not want it hallowed only in our own hearts, but in the hearts of many others who walk God's earth -- it being fitting He be glorified so. And so, we Ask Him to help us do this.

When my wife's caregiving is finished here (mother with Alzheimer's, grandmother 97 and slowly failing), I have given her my word we will return to New York. It is very hard for her being here, and being away from the PCA church she loved in NYC. I would like to leave something here that will last after we go.

The gospel is a precious deposit entrusted to us; I would use the "talents" given so as to bear much return to Him who gave them. And this nation is spiritually impoverished, for all its religion. I really want to impact the English-speaking Greek Cypriots (and perhaps they could reach their Greek-only countrymen). My thought is to give public lectures (with the gospel in them) in a public hall. Is my purpose to "grow" the church? No. But to proclaim the glory of God's grace to wretched and lost sinners. Of course those whom the Lord draws to Himself will need a place to grow in grace and the knowledge of Him. There is no other Reformed church in this city; all the rest are Arminian, or Pentecostal, or amorphous evangelical ("non-denoms").


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## KMK

This...



Jerusalem Blade said:


> (both he and I elderly: 65, 60)



and this...



Jerusalem Blade said:


> I really want to impact the English-speaking Greek Cypriots (and perhaps they could reach their Greek-only countrymen). My thought is to give public lectures (with the gospel in them) in a public hall. Is my purpose to "grow" the church? No. But to proclaim the glory of God's grace to wretched and lost sinners.



do not add up, Mr. Rafalsky! May the Lord keep you young!


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## SEAGOON

Hi All,

I know that our "Building Old School Churches" blog has already been referenced in this thread (sorry to bring it up again) but there is actually another post there that more directly addresses the subject of how Conservative Reformed Churches grow. Specifically, in the thread entitled "Some Rudimentary Thoughts on Church Planting" I gave the following opinion:



> "*How Old School Church Plants Grow*
> 
> For most conservative Reformed churches, transfer growth, which is how most new churches get members, is probably going to account for only about a quarter of your new member growth. This is obviously low compared to the tremendous percentage of new members who will come from transfer growth in a new broadly evangelical church in a Reformed denomination. That is because they offer a familiar and comfortable environment for evangelicals who have moved to the area and for evangelicals already in the community looking for a new church.
> 
> Conservative, Old-School churches on the other hand are – to the extent that they don’t resemble the culture or more importantly, the evangelical sub-culture – “alien” and tend to make visiting evangelicals uncomfortable. For instance, I’ve privately estimated that perhaps almost half of the people from a PCA background moving into Fayetteville end up attending one of the larger non-PCA charismatic mega-churches in town because they most closely resemble the kinds of PCA church many young PCA members are familiar with. These mega-churches have a culture and an approach to worship that is already familiar to these PCA members, and therefore they tend to be very comfortable attending them. My suspicions in this area tend to be confirmed by the fact that the most common question I get from a new PCA resident of Fayetteville enquiring about our church is, “tell me about your music ministry” or simply “do you have contemporary worship?” Ironically, I have never had this question from a non-Christian inquiring about our congregation, their most common question is “What do you believe about…?”
> 
> So an old-school plant will probably see some transfer growth, but they had better not be depending on it. If they are, they will end up failing.
> 
> So where will real growth come from? I am increasingly convinced that conservatives who wish to see church growth need to abandon the policy of merely doing what they can to collect or assimilate the conservative Reformed Christians already in their city. They should also probably abandon hopes of attracting the broad consumer-oriented evangelical to their congregation. I am not saying that these evangelicals will never come to their churches, far from it, they will no doubt see a small amount of growth in that area simply from Christians who have grown hungry for real spiritual meat, and have not found it in their churches. But in most communities, solely relying on these two groups to populate a new congregation is a sure recipe for disaster.
> 
> So who should old-school churches be primarily trying to reach, who should be our main focus in the harvest? The unchurched or simply unconverted.
> 
> How can we reach these people? Well you should be in the phone book at the very least, and that with an actual box ad stating time, location, contact number, and a brief, substantive, and intelligible description of your church. Try to write something that even a non-Reformed individual can understand. For instance: “Christ Centered” is a better choice than “Christocentric” and to give you a local example – although I sincerely love the people of this plant - “A Distinctively Reformed Ministry” is generally meaningless, even to evangelicals, and indicates that your aim is to gather-in the already Reformed (which as we have mentioned is a common conservative church planting mistake) when in many cities there aren’t enough of them to make up a solid new church. Use common scriptural language in your advertising. And please don’t lie about who you are in an effort to attract people. For instance, one of our local non-Reformed churches describes itself as, “exciting” in its advertising. Now perhaps you really are excited about your church, but does a subjective term like “exciting” really provide an accurate description of your congregation or its aims and ideals?
> 
> Additionally don’t require that readers have a theological glossary to hand. For instance, “We Believe the Bible is the Word of God” isn’t a bad thing to admit and people will generally know what you mean. Include a website location – most of our visits have come from our website. Include pictures of people on the website, including the Pastor and his family. People want to see that your church is composed of real human beings, and finding that it is will go a long way towards making people feel comfortable going there. Include directions, statements of faith, etc. and be sure to vary the content between meat and milk.
> 
> But what is going to be your primary means of growth? It has been my experience that the primary agency for your growth is going to be word of mouth. Your church will grow when you members actively invite friends, relatives, co-workers, and acquaintances to your church. And then when they visit, make sure they are warmly greeted and sincerely welcomed. HOSPITALITY will make a much greater impression on visitors than even the preaching (and point out the stark difference between the world and the church.) Invite visitors over for lunch after the service. Ask questions about them and their lives. Few things will be as counter-productive to the growth of your church as making your visitors feel ignored and unwelcome. I also need to stress the fact that the pastor cannot be the only person attempting to welcome visitors. Visitors know full well that the majority of their interaction will not be with the pastor but with the members of the congregation, and if they get the impression that they are not going to enjoy that experience very much, then you can be sure they won’t come back. You don’t need to change your service, or dumb anything down or “create a coffee hour for people who hate coffee” to be welcoming. Just be warm experimental Calvinists, preach the Gospel, convict of sin and call men and women to faith in Christ. Let unbelievers see a genuine love for one another within the church and a willingness to be poured out for the sake of others. Strive to become people who are making a positive proclamation of the gospel in word and deed.
> 
> Dedicate yourself to maintaining all three marks of the true church, including mark number three. Church discipline, biblically exercised, is actually an asset to church growth. Discipline problems, passed over or coddled kill new churches. To that end, make discipling a primary objective and really make sure new members know what they are doing when they take their vows. Scripture warns us that “a little leaven, leavens the whole lump” and I’ve actually witnessed the process of ungodly leavening going on in small groups. Remember that church plants are fragile and often will not survive the kind of scandals an established church might be able to weather."


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