# Debt and Godliness



## SmokingFlax (Jan 10, 2005)

Where should the believer draw the line at incurring debt?

In my early fundamentalist days I held pretty tightly to the verse in Romans (13:8) about owing no man anything but love...(the love part being more difficult than the debt part for me). And, fortunately, I only find myself about $1,000.00 in debt today (from old b.c. student loans).

I have, since then, come across some ideas about debt taken from the OT wherein it is lawful to go into debt if you are able to pay it off before the sabbath year (7 years later).

How does one reconcile these two ideas? Especially when it comes to purchasing a home (or land). It seems, unless one is independantly wealthy -which I am not, one must take on a huge amount of debt...which breaks BOTH laws!


----------



## satz (Jan 11, 2005)

hmm...just to clarify, are you saying that Romans 13:8 means we should avoid any and all forms of borrowing?

I remember reading some good materials on this in the past, and had come to the conclusion that Paul's intention was not to prohibit any and all borrowing or debt. Thing is, i can't for the life of me remember anything now! Will have to go and search for the stuff when i get home...


----------



## SmokingFlax (Jan 11, 2005)

Well...that's what it looks like to me. But I'm open to hear what anyone has to say about it. 

It's been more the rule than the exception in my experience that most every Christian I meet is insanely in debt which I find to be rather disturbing.


----------



## Puritan Sailor (Jan 11, 2005)

I use to think that it meant any form of debt. So I strictly lived by it which was nice, until I had to buy a home. I think you have to look at what the debt entails. There is a difference between investing and debt. That's what a home really is, an investment. I still avoid at all costs going into debt as much as possible both because of the command, and also because debt ties your hands and restricts your freedom. It's nice to not have to worry about bill collectors or how we'll make the next payment etc. It keeps you humble and living within your means, and decreases the stress of life tremendously.


----------



## daveb (Jan 11, 2005)

How do you guys feel about student loans? 

I've been told by one of my former prof's that taking a student loan isn't right and that if you do not have the money (or are not provided with the money) to go to school then you shouldn't go. I'm not sure what his view on home ownership would be but his stance on school was clear.

I agree that if you can avoid going into debt as long as possible. Debt does tie you down and it's a big relief when you get out of it.


----------



## sastark (Jan 11, 2005)

> I've been told by one of my former prof's that taking a student loan isn't right and that if you do not have the money (or are not provided with the money) to go to school then you shouldn't go. I'm not sure what his view on home ownership would be but his stance on school was clear.



With all due respect to this professor, this is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard (and quite arrogant, to boot). So, only the rich should be educated? I am paying off student loans, and I'm very very glad that these loans were available to me and that I took them. My parents could not pay my way through school, and even though I worked part-time, I could not afford to pay for everything either. I think this is more along the lines of an investment, personally. But, the other way to look at it is: If I have a college degree, I am much less likely to go into debt later in life (easier to find a job, and a good job at that). Not that I put my trust in a Bachelor's Degree, but it certainly does help.

Ideally, no one should have to take out a loan to pay for school, but if they have to do so in order to graduate, I say go for it. It's better than not having that education.


----------



## SmokingFlax (Jan 11, 2005)

The flipside of going into debt for student loans is: 

Should the government be in the business of subsidizing student loans (SALLIEMAE) in the first place?

I suspect that this might have something to do with your former professor's (daveb) statements.


----------



## daveb (Jan 12, 2005)

I believe my prof's statements come from his scriptural convictions about debts. I know that he did not take out any money for his education. I found it interesting that he was able to get all of his education even though he would not borrow money to do so.


----------



## Puritan Sailor (Jan 12, 2005)

It's possible, but it requires alot of work. I paid four years of naval service for my bachelors degree.


----------



## daveb (Jan 12, 2005)

> _Originally posted by puritansailor_
> It's possible, but it requires alot of work. I paid four years of naval service for my bachelors degree.



I also did not go into debt to get my bachelors. I did have to leave school after my third year in order to go back to work and be able to afford finishing off my bachelors (which I was able to do). I'm looking at getting a MDiv now and the prospect of having to work 5 years (or more) to be able to afford to go to school.


----------



## Puritan Sailor (Jan 13, 2005)

If you are called to go, then God will provide. Don't be afraid to ask your church for help. Many seminaries also have lots of financial aid options you can look into like scholarships and grants.


----------



## daveb (Jan 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by puritansailor_
> If you are called to go, then God will provide. Don't be afraid to ask your church for help. Many seminaries also have lots of financial aid options you can look into like scholarships and grants.



Thanks for the advice Patrick.

I believe God will provide if we are to go...I just need more faith. I haven't asked our church for any money...I did ask my old church once in the past and was turned down...but I guess it would not hurt to mention. I am beginning to look into financial aid.


----------



## Ivan (Jan 13, 2005)

> _Originally posted by daveb_
> I found it interesting that he was able to get all of his education even though he would not borrow money to do so.



I was able to do it with three degrees. My B.A. was paid by the state of Illinois. The vast majority of my M.A. was paid by the SBC. My MLIS (Master of Library and Information Science) was paid by the library where I was employed. Never borrowed a cent for education.


----------



## wsw201 (Jan 13, 2005)

Once you pay your tithe, the rest is yours to use in a prudent manner. There is nothing inherently wrong with debt as long as you can meet your obligations. Today's society is based on the ability to borrow. That's why the big emphasis on your credit report. Debt does become a problem when when you live way beyond your means, especially with credit cards. Its kinda like "easy believism" but its "easy buyism".


----------



## ChristopherPaul (Mar 15, 2007)

Should society and culture affect our view on debt?


----------



## Scott Shahan (Mar 15, 2007)

I am glad this came up. I was given Dave Ramsey's book on finance and was wondering what anyone thought about that guy. Whenever "money and prosperity" are talked about in Church I tend to back off, or I should say I get "turned off". The Ramsey book is good so far....I am only on page 55 right now. Here is the guy;

http://www.daveramsey.com/


----------



## KMK (Mar 15, 2007)

Whenever we talk about wealth we should remember this:



> Deu 8:18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.



Lending is described as a blessing...



> Deu 28:12 The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.



Borrowing is described as a curse...



> Deu 28:44 He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail.



The reason...



> Pro 22:7 The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.



I don't think you can go so far as to say that borrowing is sinful, but it certainly is not something that should be taken lightly.

I think the fact that there are so many things unbiblical about our society makes for a treacherous road for a young Christian man. Do everything with prayer and make sure you take advantage of your God given help-meet (if you have one.)

I look at a mortgage more as renting than borrowing. You are basically in a rent to own situation for 30 years with the bank. They own it, you do not. Of course it would be better to buy one or build one with cash, but how many of us can do that? Maybe the Amish have something... 

I think everyone would agree that credit card debt for consumable items is bad?


----------



## Anton Bruckner (Mar 17, 2007)

KMK said:


> I look at a mortgage more as renting than borrowing. You are basically in a rent to own situation for 30 years with the bank. They own it, you do not. Of course it would be better to buy one or build one with cash, but how many of us can do that? Maybe the Amish have something...


 I would say that if a person can almost guarantee themselves that the monthly payments wouldn't be to burdensome, and that they will have the cash flow to pay for the house, so be it. Many people purchase homes without having a stable job situation, and corporate america with their capricious ways usually lay off people at a whim, and there goes the house (foreclosure and bad credit).


----------



## KMK (Mar 17, 2007)

Slippery said:


> I would say that if a person can almost guarantee themselves that the monthly payments wouldn't be to burdensome, and that they will have the cash flow to pay for the house, so be it. Many people purchase homes without having a stable job situation, and corporate america with their capricious ways usually lay off people at a whim, and there goes the house (foreclosure and bad credit).


----------



## George Bailey (Mar 18, 2007)

Scott Shahan said:


> I am glad this came up. I was given Dave Ramsey's book on finance and was wondering what anyone thought about that guy. Whenever "money and prosperity" are talked about in Church I tend to back off, or I should say I get "turned off". The Ramsey book is good so far....I am only on page 55 right now. Here is the guy;
> 
> http://www.daveramsey.com/



I'm a huge Dave Ramsey fan. If you listen to his radio show over time, you will see the fruit of his "teachings"...people who are desparate, who have made stupid decisions, and who are financially "lost" are very much ministered to. His target audience isn't someone who basically has it all together and is looking for investment strategies, it's the average American who has too much debt, and is living paycheck to paycheck. 

Dave is a Christian, I believe. he's not Reformed (with a capital "R") but he frequently points to Christ, and the wisdom of the scriptures.


----------



## No Longer A Libertine (Mar 18, 2007)

This is fixing to be quite a reality for me, pray I make wise decisions with my student loans.


----------

