# Dmin question



## Notthemama1984 (Dec 10, 2010)

The other thread on accreditation got me thinking. Does it really matter in terms of a Dmin? 

Does a Dmin really do anything in terms of career progression? (Does a Dmin open more doors than a MDiv would).

If it is purely for pastoral growth, then I can't see where accreditation really matters. Would churches frown upon an unaccredited Dmin vs. an accredited one?


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## SolaScriptura (Dec 10, 2010)

In my world it does. In the local church... not so much.


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## Notthemama1984 (Dec 10, 2010)

Militarily it matters?


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## SolaScriptura (Dec 10, 2010)

Nah, you don't need it. It's not like you're considering joining the branch, which as far as promotions % goes, that is the most competitive and is likely to get even more competitive. So don't fuss with something like a DMin as if education is a discriminating factor. In fact, don't you even worry about an MDiv. You just get yourself an MA. And once you're in, don't worry about little things like Airborne or Air Assault or good assignments... you just be orthodox... and console yourself with what the folks on the PB think of you.


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## Notthemama1984 (Dec 10, 2010)

You lost the mustache!

I knew that having a Dmin or PhD would advance your career, but did not realize they checked for accreditation. It makes sense that they would, just didn't put two and two together.

Oh and if anything, I have been accused of worrying about my career too much.


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## N. Eshelman (Dec 10, 2010)

You can teach in some places with a DMin. Dr. David Murray, at Puritan Reformed Seminary, has a DMin.

There is a lot of debate as to whether it is junk degree. Personally, I like them. It is a good idea for pastors to go back to school for refreshment at some point (of course, there is no need to get a degree- but this is one way that it is done.)


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## Wayne (Dec 10, 2010)

A DMin. from Westminster/Philly is not a junk degree. So too with some other schools. But choose carefully!

And to widen the discussion, there is the contention that a Th.M. from a _good_ school is of greater value than _most_ D.Min degrees.


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## Notthemama1984 (Dec 10, 2010)

Well I will have the ThM from DTS (not sure if it is considered a _good_ school though)


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## CharlieJ (Dec 10, 2010)

It depends on what one intends to do with it. A DMin is a "junk" degree if it's being passed off as a scholarly degree; it's not. The academic requirements for a D Min are below an M. Div. or a ThM. Most don't require language proficiencies, and you can often complete them in 2 years (versus 4-6 for a PhD). But, if it's to learn some things and refine your pastoral practice, then it might be well worth your while. The problem comes at the church level. Most pulpit committees aren't savvy enough to know the difference between a D. Min and a PhD. It's all "Dr." to them, so they might judge a D. Min. candidate as better qualified than a M.Div + ThM guy.


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## Edward (Dec 10, 2010)

Chaplainintraining said:


> DTS (not sure if it is considered a good school though)



It's the best school around for learning dispensational theology.


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## Notthemama1984 (Dec 10, 2010)

That doesn't say much.


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## SolaScriptura (Dec 10, 2010)

CharlieJ said:


> It depends on what one intends to do with it. A DMin is a "junk" degree if it's being passed off as a scholarly degree; it's not. The academic requirements for a D Min are below an M. Div. or a ThM. Most don't require language proficiencies, and you can often complete them in 2 years (versus 4-6 for a PhD). But, if it's to learn some things and refine your pastoral practice, then it might be well worth your while. The problem comes at the church level. Most pulpit committees aren't savvy enough to know the difference between a D. Min and a PhD. It's all "Dr." to them, so they might judge a D. Min. candidate as better qualified than a M.Div + ThM guy.



Now for the stink bomb...

I think a DMin guy IS likely better qualified than a PhD or an "MDiv + ThM" if we're talking_ pastoral ministry_. (Refering to it as "MDiv +ThM" is silly since for the DMin it would be "MDiv + DMin.") The PhD and (usually) the ThM mean that he can do plenty of great work in a library. But it don't mean squat for being able to be with people and relate to them and winsomely shepherd them.
The DMin, on the other hand, is about advanced training in the skills to pastor. A DMin shouldn't require languages - that is what the MDiv is for. The DMin requires that you've done ministry for at least 3 years - the research degrees don't. The DMin student is someone who is working in a ministry and wants to hone skills. 

Two different degrees for two different tracks.

But again, if I'm looking at what will have better equipped the man to deal with people, the DMin is what I'd bet my money on.


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## Wayne (Dec 10, 2010)

> ...being able to be with people and relate to them and winsomely shepherd them.



WHY in the world would you want to do that? 

[noting the degree after my name ]


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## R. Scott Clark (Dec 10, 2010)

Where one does a DMin and why one does a DMin are very important in evaluating them. As has been said, a DMin is not an academic degree. In our (former) DMin program we accepted men for the purpose of giving them an opportunity to study and write about a particular aspect of pastoral ministry in detail. One of the problems in evaluating DMin projects was that they were neither fish nor fowl but a sort of hybrid. Our (late) DMin program hatched some interesting and significant work (Art Azurdia's book and Jim Garretson's book come to mind as two examples). 

Nate is right. There is serious debate about the validity of all the "professional doctorates" (DMin, PsyD etc) because they don't require the sort of academic skills and rigor required by an earned, academic doctorate (e.g., a PhD). Properly someone with a DMin is not "Dr So and So." He is the Rev Mr So and So, DMin but it is not unusual to see people using the DMin like a PhD and, as been said, outside of academic circles few people observe the distinction.

This gets to motive/intent (not distinguishing them for the sake this discussion). One fears that the DMin is not just a course for self-improvement but a vehicle for self-aggrandizement, that the minister feels the need to improve his standing in his congregation. This gets to a more fundamental problem. If ministry of the Word is not regarded as inherently significant then we have a problem with the authority of the Word and a misunderstanding of the nature of the office of minister and probably confusion about the nature of the church and the means of grace.

Schools too have motives for offering DMin degrees. WSC got out of the DMin business just when others were getting in. When i announced, at a meeting academic administrators, that we were killing our program one might have thought that I had announced that we were drowning puppies! Why? It's a source of revenue. Many DMin candidates do not finish but they do pay continuation fees. They are relatively low maintenance and the demand for them seems to be inexhaustible. 

Wayne's note re the ThM (or I might add, the MA (Historical Theology)) is a better alternative if one wants to gain some additional skills and expertise in a particular field. The ThM is a way for an MDiv student to spend a fourth year (hence Dallas' nomenclature) gaining polish and becoming a student of a specialized field. A few of our MDiv students are doing the same with the MA (Hist Theol) at WSC in lieu of a ThM. Writing a serious, academic thesis is a good way to gain skills and make progress and become a resource for the church. 

My experience with what was regarded as a very good DMin program, however, left me dissatisfied with the DMin for reasons I sketched above.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Wannabee (Dec 10, 2010)

Wannabee found R. Scott Clark's post helpful.


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## Curt (Dec 10, 2010)

CharlieJ said:


> It depends on what one intends to do with it. A DMin is a "junk" degree if it's being passed off as a scholarly degree; it's not. The academic requirements for a D Min are below an M. Div. or a ThM. Most don't require language proficiencies, and you can often complete them in 2 years (versus 4-6 for a PhD). But, if it's to learn some things and refine your pastoral practice, then it might be well worth your while. The problem comes at the church level. Most pulpit committees aren't savvy enough to know the difference between a D. Min and a PhD. It's all "Dr." to them, so they might judge a D. Min. candidate as better qualified than a M.Div + ThM guy.


 
Charlie, 

Regarding the requirements for the D.Min programs, they vary greatly. Personally, when I did a D.Min, Hebrew and Greek proficiency _*was*_ required and used in the course work. That said (or written), however, we should really understand that a D.Min is a professional degree. It a Pastoral advanced degree intended (ideally) to further the education and understanding of the man in pastoral ministry. In many cases it is required that the student be in pastoral ministry (including chaplaincies and other ministries).


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