# Joyce Meyer



## D. Paul

I am going on a little trip! My wife and I have been close friends with another couple for several years now. Our backgrounds are all related as products of the Holiness movement; our friends and my wife knowing nothing but Pentecostalism and I being raised Nazarene. I have moved the furthest from and have severed the ties to those roots. My wife and friends remain basically Pentecostal in their thinking/belief although we all attend a General Baptist Church. OK, So much for that...

My wife and I have been invited by this couple to an upcoming Joyce Meyer Conference. Personally, I have no need for JM. She offers me little to nothing when I have listened to her. But we will go.

For those who may not be aware, I recently lost my job (thanks for prayer) so I am anticipating that the timing of this event will be viewed as being "divinely appointed" and that JM will having something to "speak into my spirit" or have some "prophesy". (Is my bias showing?)

We've had our conversations regarding the opposing doctrines before, so they are somewhat aware of where I stand. I cannot help but understand the Charismatic stuff since it's crammed down our throats everywhere we turn. But I've seen it before. They will gush over how "awesome" it was etc etc and unless I want to ruin the trip, I'll have relatively little to say.

So, I don't know...what can I do? What would any of you do?


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## LawrenceU

Personally, I would not go. Not only does she teach heresy, you will be sitting under a woman who is far outside of Biblical authority as she is teaching the Scriptures to men. If there is a Jezebel spirit, . . . . Well, if you are from a charismatic background you know where I'm going.


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## BobVigneault

I wouldn't go, I couldn't go. I just don't have the intestinal fortitude to sit through that. I just threw up a little in my mouth just thinking of it.

Sorry to be so middle of the road, I'll try to form an opinion and get back to you. (Ugh!)


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## LeeJUk

the last thing i heard of her was that she preached a very very....strannnnge Jesus


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## LadyFlynt

We couldn't/wouldn't go. No way, no how, not even if she offered us her mansion.


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## toddpedlar

Ditto to all the above. Despite any injury or harm that temporarily might come to the friendship, there is no way I could possibly allow myself or my wife to attend such a conference, no possible reason I could come up with to endure it and give off even the slightest impression that I thought Joyce Meyer was legitimately called to do what she does, or that she is anything shy of a heretic.


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## he beholds

I would not go. Since you all go to the same church, I think it would be easy enough to find something she says that goes against what your pastor preaches (I hope!) so that would be my excuse, for the sake of the friendship. Or I would probably personally laugh it off, and say, "yeah, I don't think I'm a big fan of hers...thanks, though!"


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## Knoxienne

Nothing good can come from having anything whatsover to do with Joyce Meyer.


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## toddpedlar

Knoxienne said:


> Nothing good can come from having anything whatsover to do with Joyce Meyer.



I don't know, if you were her neighbor, and her dog came over and did his business on your lawn, maybe it'd be greener. That would be good, right?


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## Poimen

I am hoping that the divine appointment is that you get a job so that you will have an excuse to 'miss out'. Or perhaps you could say that you need to look for a job and not spend (read: waste) time with such things. 

For myself I simply wouldn't go; I would say 'no thanks'; and if they want a reason - she is not divinely appointed by God to do and say most if not all of what she does. (1 Timothy 2:12)


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## Bern

Not a good idea to attend anything where a known false teacher is the speaker. Even in the name of unity, because true unity can only be in truth.


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## Knoxienne

toddpedlar said:


> Knoxienne said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing good can come from having anything whatsover to do with Joyce Meyer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know, if you were her neighbor, and her dog came over and did his business on your lawn, maybe it'd be greener. That would be good, right?
Click to expand...


If he was a cute doggy I'd just keep him and give him a doctrinally good home!


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## Damon Rambo

I don't know. I have always wanted to go to one of these things with a bunch of Reformed Christians, and street preach outside, to the people who are going in. Hand out tracts with a list of all of Joyce Meyers false teachings. Take my little battery powered 15 watt amplifier, and microphone, and denounce their heresies to everyone who will pause on their way in, long enough to listen...

That's what I would do!


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## reformedminister

Don't go! Joyce Meyer has a background in the Word of Faith movement like John Hagee and Kenneth Copeland. One of the many erroneous doctrines that comes from that movement is the teaching that the Atonement includes Christ suffering in Hell at the hands of Satan. Satan isn't even in Hell!


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## D. Paul

Well, the "event" is this coming Saturday. I recall I was told about the conference but did not realize it was this weekend until just yesterday when my wife said "Now don't forget this weekend...". I  and now have no means of escape.


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## LadyFlynt

Uhm, why don't you have means of escape??? A simple "we've decided not to"...


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## SemperEruditio

Don't go. Nothing good can come of it...actually you will have a new fervor to pray for your friends and all those who are drinking JM's koolade.

My wife and I have been invited to a few of TD Jakes' special appearances here in Maryland and we both just smile and shrug it off with a "Thanks for asking but I'm not a fan of TD." This is usually met with questions which we respond to. Thanks be to God that some are beginning to see "issues" with some stuff he says.


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## Marrow Man

BobVigneault said:


> I just threw up a little in my mouth just thinking of it.


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## BobVigneault

Donald, I'm sure you don't want to hear it but passivity would be the wrong response in this situation. You are the spiritual head and you have a responsibility for what your wife hears and is exposed to.


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## CDM

Have you considered if God would have you attend such a meeting?


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## DMcFadden

Don't go.


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## Joseph Scibbe

Joyce Meyer makes me  and I would rather  than go to her conference. But I am not sure  is our best option for her. I would say dont go though. I would also suggest you not let your wife attend.


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## Damon Rambo

I don't mean to make light of the situation, but I have to say: if I had to bet money on a sentence I would NEVER hear on the Puritan Board, it would be "Me and my wife are going to see Joyce Meyers..."


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## Michael Doyle

Dont go, she is a flat out heretic. Explain to your wife that you must simply obey your conscience which is governed by scripture and in light of that will not attend nor she.


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## he beholds

Michael Doyle said:


> Dont go, she is a flat out heretic. Explain to your wife that you must simply obey your conscience which is governed by scripture and in light of that will not attend nor she.



Or better yet, try to bring your wife to reason and to agree with you! I would prefer that much more, though I would obey my husband regardless.


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## Whitefield

Tell her you are going to take her out for a romantic dinner and good movie, instead.


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## LawrenceU

If you wife can read quickly go and buy a copy of [ame=http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1565631323/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link]Amazon.com: A Different Gospel: Biblical and Historical Insights into the Word of Faith Movement: D. R. McConnell: Books[/ame]

It is a great book, written by a charismatic minister. It points out the core heresies of the Word Faith movement in which Meyer squarely sits.

Seriously. Don't go. Nothing good will come of it. This is at time intestinal fortitude. It is your DUTY to protect your wife from false teaching. Chose the hard path. You will be rewarded. Remember: Duty first at all costs. It is the hallmark of leadership.


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## Rangerus

reminds me of a little ditty we used to sing in Sunday School. 

"stand up, stand up for Jesus, 
ye soldiers of the cross 
Lift high His royal banner,
It must not suffer loss.
From vict'ry unto vict'ry
His army shall He lead
Till ev'ry foe is vanquished
And Christ is Lord indeed."


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## he beholds

Whitefield said:


> Tell her you are going to take her out for a romantic dinner and good movie, instead.



Pastor Marshall, that is a great idea! 
Would she enjoy the surprise? I don't recommend being dishonest, but since the event is this weekend, I can see a wife being mad at a husband's new and "strange" ruling. BUT, if you could kidnap her and drive her somewhere else and have a great date and explain _then_ that the more you thought about it, the more you realized that Meyers was no good, she might accept it well!
Obviously I don't know how your relationship is, but I can easily say that my husband making a decision like this that I don't understand, and so close to the event, would make me mad, but I would be more than willing to understand why and to learn why.


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## Theognome

_Sung to the tune of *If You Leave Me Now* by _*Chicago*

*If You Leave With Them*

If you leave with them, you'll come away with nonsense prophecy,
Ooooo Paul, D. Paul please don't go!
And if you leave with them, she'll tickle all your ears with heresy,
Ooooo Paul, D. Paul please don't go!

A faith like ours is truth that's hard to find,
How can you let it slip away,
You'll drive real far and get a sore behind,
from kicking yourself along the way,
When the shows all done you'll all regret,
The time wasted that day,

(Guitar Solo)

A faith like ours is truth that's hard to find,
How can you let it slip away,
This Joyce Meyer is a most goofy kind,
Almost as bad as Tammy Fay,
When the shows all done you'll all regret,
The time wasted that day,

If you leave with them, you'll come away with nonsense prophecy,
Ooooo Paul, D. Paul please don't go!
That girl, I Just wish she was on Christ's side,

Ooooo Paul, D. Paul please don't go!


Theognome


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## MrMerlin777

Joyce Meyer, yet another theological and spiritual pygmy. The same ilk as Hagin, Copland, Price. She preaches heresy and flouts the Scriptures to do so. She needs to read (and heed) 1st Timothy 3:1-13.


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## Montanablue

he beholds said:


> Michael Doyle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dont go, she is a flat out heretic. Explain to your wife that you must simply obey your conscience which is governed by scripture and in light of that will not attend nor she.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or better yet, try to bring your wife to reason and to agree with you! I would prefer that much more, though I would obey my husband regardless.
Click to expand...


Yes. Explain it nicely. Joyce Myers make bile rise in my throat, so I wouldn't advise you to go. BUT, do recognize that you're making a really last minute decision that may very well confuse and embarrass your wife. (for bailing out on the other couple) Also, don't make her tell the other couple you're not going. 

And making it into a date night instead is a great idea.


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## Michael Doyle

I certainly didnt mean to give the impression of male chauvinistic lording over. I simply mean to imply purposing for he and his family to serve the Lord. Of course one must do so with love and tenderness.


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## Montanablue

Michael Doyle said:


> I certainly didnt mean to give the impression of male chauvinistic lording over. I simply mean to imply purposing for he and his family to serve the Lord. Of course one must do so with love and tenderness.



Oh, I know you didn't!  I just wanted to emphasize that things would probably go over better if it was done, as you noted, with "love and tenderness"


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## awretchsavedbygrace

DONT GO! Spare your self the headache!


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## LawrenceU

If you are prone to migraines or hyper tension that Niacin flush will give you a headache!

Of course, the conference will as well.


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## Mindaboo

> Sung to the tune of If You Leave Me Now by Chicago
> 
> If You Leave With Them
> 
> If you leave with them, you'll come away with nonsense prophecy,
> Ooooo Paul, D. Paul please don't go!
> And if you leave with them, she'll tickle all your ears with heresy,
> Ooooo Paul, D. Paul please don't go!
> 
> A faith like ours is truth that's hard to find,
> How can you let it slip away,
> You'll drive real far and get a sore behind,
> from kicking yourself along the way,
> When the shows all done you'll all regret,
> The time wasted that day,
> 
> (Guitar Solo)
> 
> A faith like ours is truth that's hard to find,
> How can you let it slip away,
> This Joyce Meyer is a most goofy kind,
> Almost as bad as Tammy Fay,
> When the shows all done you'll all regret,
> The time wasted that day,
> 
> If you leave with them, you'll come away with nonsense prophecy,
> Ooooo Paul, D. Paul please don't go!
> That girl, I Just wish she was on Christ's side,
> 
> Ooooo Paul, D. Paul please don't go!





Thanks, Bill...I will be singing this song all day now. I used to like that song, but you put Joyce Myers into it and well, that is just gross!  Are we related? I do stuff like this all the time...just not on Puritan Board where the rest of the world can see it.  I understand you, Bill. It kind of scares me. 

Don't go to hear her. It is bad doctrine, bad for your wife, bad for you. I can think of many reasons not to go. I run into this kind of stuff more with Beth Moore, I think most everybody I know is trying to get me to read her stuff. UGH! Your wife will respect you for wanting to protect her from false teachers. I knew lots of women that listened to Joyce Myers years ago and Brad told me I was not to listen to her. I didn't understand it at the time, but I do now. Your job is to protect her from heresy. PLEASE, don't go!


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## christiana

Please dont go! When you have the purity of Christ available, why turn instead to compromise and false doctrine instead? I implore you, as an ambassador of Christ, do not go and listen to false doctrine!


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## Knoxienne

Mindaboo said:


> Thanks, Bill...I will be singing this song all day now. I used to like that song, but you put Joyce Myers into it and well, that is just gross!  Are we related? I do stuff like this all the time...just not on Puritan Board where the rest of the world can see it.  I understand you, Bill. It kind of scares me.



I'm glad you said that, Sister Mindy, because I PM'd Bill and asked him to write it. All I could think of was that song while people were begging Brother D. Paul: _Ooh hoo, no D. Paul, please don't go!_ 

I love this place and I love everyone here - even the people who get on my nerves. And that would include me since I get on my own nerves!


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## toddpedlar

Montanablue said:


> he beholds said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Michael Doyle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dont go, she is a flat out heretic. Explain to your wife that you must simply obey your conscience which is governed by scripture and in light of that will not attend nor she.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or better yet, try to bring your wife to reason and to agree with you! I would prefer that much more, though I would obey my husband regardless.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes. Explain it nicely. Joyce Myers make bile rise in my throat, so I wouldn't advise you to go. BUT, do recognize that you're making a really last minute decision that may very well confuse and embarrass your wife. (for bailing out on the other couple) Also, don't make her tell the other couple you're not going.
> 
> And making it into a date night instead is a great idea.
Click to expand...


It might confuse and embarrass your wife, Donald, but anything is better than subjecting yourself and allowing her to be subjected to false teaching. If you've already paid for the tickets, count it loss for Christ. If your friends paid for tickets, offer to pay for them and do something else, like go for a picnic and spread out the blanket and the Word. ANYTHING is better than what you will face at this conference. 

If embarrassment and confusion comes to your wife, and frustration from your friends, you as head of the house need to take the brunt of it, and simply say that you're not going. Whatever comes, comes. This is a trial, and I respectfully and humbly suggest that you really need to say no, whatever the consequences. Please.. for you and your wife's sake.


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## Idelette

Donald, 

I understand your dilemma, I've been in similar situations so many times! I have several charismatic friends that are always inviting me to events, so I completely understand your desire to keep peace with them! But, honestly, your first responsibility is to lead and protect your wife, and whatever teaching you sit under.....you will have to answer to God for that! I wouldn't be as concerned with wounding your friends or wife temporarily. They may get a bit upset intially....but I think this is a wonderful opportunity to stand for true teaching! I've been in situations where I've had to tell people that I cannot go, and it has been a great time to discuss Biblical truth and doctrines! I would pray for your wife, and pray for this couple, and pray that God would use this as an opportunity to defend sound Biblical teaching! Perhaps the Lord is using this, and will have mercy on them! Please don't see this as a time to compromise, but see it as a time to glorify God!


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## D. Paul

I had no idea this would elicit such a dramatic response. The one that was like a slap to the face was this:
Damon Rambo "...if I had to bet money on a sentence I would NEVER hear on the Puritan Board, it would be "Me and my wife are going to see Joyce Meyers..."

Wow. Leave it to me...

Not intending to rationalize, but since Beth Moore was brought up, what if it were her instead? There is a lengthy thread on the PB regarding her and she seems to be "acceptable". I have some issues with her also. She may not be of the ilk of Jakes, Copeland etc like JM, though. 

So, OK, I'll address the issue tonight. 

I'm glad I didn't post it as a poll Q.


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## LawrenceU

Since you asked, I wouldn't see Beth Moore either.


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## LadyFlynt

D. Paul said:


> I had no idea this would elicit such a dramatic response. The one that was like a slap to the face was this:
> Damon Rambo "...if I had to bet money on a sentence I would NEVER hear on the Puritan Board, it would be "Me and my wife are going to see Joyce Meyers..."
> 
> Wow. Leave it to me...
> 
> Not intending to rationalize, but since Beth Moore was brought up, what if it were her instead? There is a lengthy thread on the PB regarding her and she seems to be "acceptable". I have some issues with her also. She may not be of the ilk of Jakes, Copeland etc like JM, though.
> 
> So, OK, I'll address the issue tonight.
> 
> I'm glad I didn't post it as a poll Q.



I remember that thread...I didn't see where anyone found her "acceptable", or at least not the majority. I've taken her courses, before being Reformed. There are issues, but not out and out heresy.

Beth Moore : issues + within realm of orthodoxy

Joyce Meyers: issues + heretical teaching


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## toddpedlar

I wouldn't see Beth Moore either, but not because she's a heretic.


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## LawrenceU

> So, OK, I'll address the issue tonight.



Good on you! I'll be praying for you and your wife.


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## Knoxienne

LawrenceU said:


> So, OK, I'll address the issue tonight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good on you! I'll be praying for you and your wife.
Click to expand...


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## Scott1

With a little research you know, going in:

Arminian influenced + Dispensational + No binding confession of belief

Then, you would need to overlook the distortion of the gospel in the "prosperity gospel," and then overlook the merchandising of the gospel, and then accept accept extra-biblical revelation that will be presented as if it were new revelation of God...

But even if these aspects were basically biblical, you are giving yourself to a woman falsely presuming to place herself in ecclesiastical teaching (and even apostolic) authority over you.

Biblically, this is offensive to our God. I wouldn't recommend supporting this, even for a joke.


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## Grace Alone

I have been critical of Beth Moore on this forum and have stated that I would not use one of her Bible studies in my reformed church because I think some of her teaching will conflict with what we believe and teach. However, being aware of the basic differences, if someone gave me a free ticket to go on her cruise, I'd probably force myself to go.

However, I would not knowingly go hear heresy. So Joyce Meyer would be out of the question.

I think it would be immensely helpful if someone here who knows would list some of her specific errors because this change of plans will likely require some explanation to his wife.


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## Knoxienne

I wanna go on a Pastor John Weaver cruise. Tybee Island, BABY!!!


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## LawrenceU

Knoxienne said:


> I wanna go on a Pastor John Weaver cruise. Tybee Island, BABY!!!



Hey we could all go and check in on Honor!


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## Rich Koster

D. Paul said:


> I am going on a little trip! My wife and I have been close friends with another couple for several years now. Our backgrounds are all related as products of the Holiness movement; our friends and my wife knowing nothing but Pentecostalism and I being raised Nazarene. I have moved the furthest from and have severed the ties to those roots. My wife and friends remain basically Pentecostal in their thinking/belief although we all attend a General Baptist Church. OK, So much for that...
> 
> My wife and I have been invited by this couple to an upcoming Joyce Meyer Conference. Personally, I have no need for JM. She offers me little to nothing when I have listened to her. But we will go.
> 
> For those who may not be aware, I recently lost my job (thanks for prayer) so I am anticipating that the timing of this event will be viewed as being "divinely appointed" and that JM will having something to "speak into my spirit" or have some "prophesy". (Is my bias showing?)
> 
> We've had our conversations regarding the opposing doctrines before, so they are somewhat aware of where I stand. I cannot help but understand the Charismatic stuff since it's crammed down our throats everywhere we turn. But I've seen it before. They will gush over how "awesome" it was etc etc and unless I want to ruin the trip, I'll have relatively little to say.
> 
> So, I don't know...what can I do? What would any of you do?



Stay home, she is a heretic...period.


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## Ivan

So...I wonder...should he go? : 

JM is based in the St. Louis area. I'd rather go to a St. Louis Cardinals game!


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## JonathanHunt

Reading Hank Hanegraaff's book 'Christianity in Crisis: 21st Century' has opened my eyes to how 'far out' Joyce Meyer is. Praying for you in this difficult situation, Donald.


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## Calvin'scuz

I WOULD go; I would take copious notes of what she said; and I would then get my wife and friends together afterwards and show them how far off she is biblically. 90% of the charismatic movement is in the presentation (selling the sizzle, not the steak). Use your copious notes to keep your friends and family on track to what she SAYS and contrast that against what the Bible says and what you know to be orthodox.


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## Theognome

Mindaboo said:


> Sung to the tune of If You Leave Me Now by Chicago
> 
> If You Leave With Them
> 
> If you leave with them, you'll come away with nonsense prophecy,
> Ooooo Paul, D. Paul please don't go!
> And if you leave with them, she'll tickle all your ears with heresy,
> Ooooo Paul, D. Paul please don't go!
> 
> A faith like ours is truth that's hard to find,
> How can you let it slip away,
> You'll drive real far and get a sore behind,
> from kicking yourself along the way,
> When the shows all done you'll all regret,
> The time wasted that day,
> 
> (Guitar Solo)
> 
> A faith like ours is truth that's hard to find,
> How can you let it slip away,
> This Joyce Meyer is a most goofy kind,
> Almost as bad as Tammy Fay,
> When the shows all done you'll all regret,
> The time wasted that day,
> 
> If you leave with them, you'll come away with nonsense prophecy,
> Ooooo Paul, D. Paul please don't go!
> That girl, I Just wish she was on Christ's side,
> 
> Ooooo Paul, D. Paul please don't go!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, Bill...I will be singing this song all day now. I used to like that song, but you put Joyce Myers into it and well, that is just gross!  Are we related? I do stuff like this all the time...just not on Puritan Board where the rest of the world can see it.  I understand you, Bill. It kind of scares me.
> 
> Don't go to hear her. It is bad doctrine, bad for your wife, bad for you. I can think of many reasons not to go. I run into this kind of stuff more with Beth Moore, I think most everybody I know is trying to get me to read her stuff. UGH! Your wife will respect you for wanting to protect her from false teachers. I knew lots of women that listened to Joyce Myers years ago and Brad told me I was not to listen to her. I didn't understand it at the time, but I do now. Your job is to protect her from heresy. PLEASE, don't go!
Click to expand...


Understanding me _is_ scary. I mean, I don't even understand me. 

Theognome


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## D. Paul

OK, it's 1000 to 1 against my going; Calvin'sCuz the lone "Yay".

I am now going to dare broach a touchy subject.

***Disclaimer: I am *NOT* attempting to skirt the issue or conjure some rationale. _*I agree*_ concerning JM's heretical teachings etc. I was forced several years ago to investigate the teachings of the whole bunch of WordFaith nut-jobs. I read Charismatic Chaos, A Different Gospel, Power Religion, Blinded By Might etc and have had many one-on-ones with a former Pastor who leaned heavily on WordFaith stuff. So I've done a good bit of homework. So...

My wife and I took a walk together this evening and I brought up the weekend. The conversation went OK but also went as expected. But I thought of something. Recall the threads regarding Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ movie? We had some here on the PB who went to see it. My only reason for bringing that up is that the same reasons presented here regarding JM could be used for those who saw The Passion. It makes it neither right nor wrong, but heresy / blasphemy is what it is.

Now, I'm not tracking who saw The Passion and who is posting the "Nay" in this thread to find discrepancy or  hypocrisy, but is the parallel warranted or am I missing something?


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## Theognome

D. Paul said:


> OK, it's 1000 to 1 against my going; Calvin'sCuz the lone "Yay".
> 
> I am now going to dare broach a touchy subject.
> 
> ***Disclaimer: I am *NOT* attempting to skirt the issue or conjure some rationale. _*I agree*_ concerning JM's heretical teachings etc. I was forced several years ago to investigate the teachings of the whole bunch of WordFaith nut-jobs. I read Charismatic Chaos, A Different Gospel, Power Religion, Blinded By Might etc and have had many one-on-ones with a former Pastor who leaned heavily on WordFaith stuff. So I've done a good bit of homework. So...
> 
> My wife and I took a walk together this evening and I brought up the weekend. The conversation went OK but also went as expected. But I thought of something. Recall the threads regarding Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ movie? We had some here on the PB who went to see it. My only reason for bringing that up is that the same reasons presented here regarding JM could be used for those who saw The Passion. It makes it neither right nor wrong, but heresy / blasphemy is what it is.
> 
> Now, I'm not tracking who saw The Passion and who is posting the "Nay" in this thread to find discrepancy or  hypocrisy, but is the parallel warranted or am I missing something?



Personally, I never saw the movie. However, I don't see much of a parallel. Although many folk may deride both, it is for different reasons. The Passion is not a woman 'preacher' leading a heretical 'worship' service, nor is Meyer a movie showing iconic images of sometimes questionable doctrines.

Theognome


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## D. Paul

Theognome;
Personally said:


> True, but in either cases, folks know going in what they will witness. In neither case is Biblical Doctrine being upheld or taught.


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## WarrenInSC

D. Paul said:


> Well, the "event" is this coming Saturday. I recall I was told about the conference but did not realize it was this weekend until just yesterday when my wife said "Now don't forget this weekend...". I  and now have no means of escape.



Of course you have a means of escape - unless you abdicate the role of spiritual head of your familiy. Tell her you didn't forget, that you've been convicted about it, and that as the spiritual head of your family (I know that in pentacostal circles woman are allowed to lead where they shouldn't) you're asking her not to go either


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## toddpedlar

I think the parallel isn't bad, really. 

That being said, I can't continue to harp on the same things. By going I think you are making a huge mistake. Apart from the clear problems already presented you (1 being her heretical teaching that you'd be listening to and 2 being the fact that she is presuming to teach the audience she does) there is this - you will find that in going you'll have lost a lot of traction with your friends should you ever hope to guide them to the truth. Why would they believe you when you say that JM teaches heresy if you went alongside them and agreed to sit under that teaching? Why would they believe you when you try to teach them about the unBiblical nature of women who claim to be pastor/teachers? You're losing all kinds of credibility in going. You also (and this was brought up before but I think is in need of reiteration) are giving your wife mixed messages and not helping her out in leading, especially if she is prone to like what she hears from JM. 

I don't know what you mean by "it went as I expected" - I assume you mean that your wife didn't take the news well. I hope, though, that you presented it firmly. I think along with everyone else here that it is really, really, really a huge mistake to go and accept this woman's teaching (even if you go home and do a post-mortem). Your going says to your wife and to your friends that you think there's a worthy reason to sit under that teaching.


----------



## Abd_Yesua_alMasih

toddpedlar said:


> Knoxienne said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing good can come from having anything whatsover to do with Joyce Meyer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know, if you were her neighbor, and her dog came over and did his business on your lawn, maybe it'd be greener. That would be good, right?
Click to expand...

Depends what she feeds it. High acid levels might kill the grass.


----------



## WarrenInSC

D. Paul said:


> [/U]
> Now, I'm not tracking who saw The Passion and who is posting the "Nay" in this thread to find discrepancy or  hypocrisy, but is the parallel warranted or am I missing something?



Yes, you are missing something - watching a movie is potentially light years different from deliberately sitting under a live false teacher, and validating her with your presence 'sitting under her teaching'. Don't understand how you could compare the two.


----------



## Abd_Yesua_alMasih

Would people who would refuse to see Joyce Meyer also refuse to go to a university lecture on a topic they disagreed with or, for example, attend a relatives graduation where the key note address is from someone you disagreed with?

Isn't there a way to simply protect yourself from their influence while using the topic as an opening to discussion?


----------



## kalawine

*He's OK*

Having been a Charismatic myself for several years I was once cornered by some ladies at our Church who were going to see her and wanted my opinion of Joyce Meyer. My reply was, "Joyce? Oh *HE'S* OK." 

Needless to say I was looked at as if I'd just blasphemed the Holy Spirit.

Ever wonder if she teaches through the Bible and how she handles Passage: 1 Corinthians 14:34 (ESV Bible Online)


----------



## gene_mingo

Abd_Yesua_alMasih said:


> Would people who would refuse to see Joyce Meyer also refuse to go to a university lecture on a topic they disagreed with or, for example, attend a relatives graduation where the key note address is from someone you disagreed with?
> 
> Isn't there a way to simply protect yourself from their influence while using the topic as an opening to discussion?



Does the Prof. or keynote speaker profess to be a minister of the gospel and that the functions are for preaching the gospel?


----------



## WarrenInSC

Abd_Yesua_alMasih said:


> Would people who would refuse to see Joyce Meyer also refuse to go to a university lecture on a topic they disagreed with or, for example, attend a relatives graduation where the key note address is from someone you disagreed with?
> 
> Isn't there a way to simply protect yourself from their influence while using the topic as an opening to discussion?



Since the purposes of the different events you mention are entirely different (religious/faith based, versus academic -where there is no assumption the attendees are there in unity of faith), that's apples and kiwi fruit.


----------



## D. Paul

WarrenInSC said:


> D. Paul said:
> 
> 
> 
> [/U]
> Now, I'm not tracking who saw The Passion and who is posting the "Nay" in this thread to find discrepancy or  hypocrisy, but is the parallel warranted or am I missing something?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, you are missing something - watching a movie is potentially light years different from deliberately sitting under a live false teacher, and validating her with your presence 'sitting under her teaching'. Don't understand how you could compare the two.
Click to expand...


Because people "validated" Mel Gibson's presentation with the "deliberate" $7.50 price of admission and sat for 3 hours under THAT "teaching". To say it was not Roman Catholic propaganda would be quite short-sighted. Again, people who had done their homework and heard the critiques of the movie still went to see it. 

There were reasons I presented to people so that they would NOT see The Passion just like I have stated to my wife and friends the reasons why we should not give an ear to the WordFaith garbage. We should drive them all from the "pulpit" in my opinion, but still they thrive. But they do not thrive on my account.


----------



## Theognome

D. Paul said:


> Theognome; said:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I never saw the movie. However, I don't see much of a parallel. Although many folk may deride both, it is for different reasons. The Passion is not a woman 'preacher' leading a heretical 'worship' service, nor is Meyer a movie showing iconic images of sometimes questionable doctrines.
> 
> Theognome
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True, but in either cases, folks know going in what they will witness. In neither case is Biblical Doctrine being upheld or taught.
Click to expand...


Issues of conscience come into play here. Although The Passion can be (and probably correctly) described as Catholic propaganda, the medium is still of entertainment as opposed to worship. Meyer, though perhaps entertaining at some level, does not strive within that medium but instead purports to be a Christian leader. Scruples may keep many if not most Reformed folk from both, but at the same time Freedom in Christ and convictions may allow some to view entertainment without necessarily being in sin for it- though some folks may indeed be in sin for viewing such a movie.

I have watched movies knowing full well that they do not support Orthodox doctrine but have been entertained none-the-less; for entertainment alone was what I was seeking while straining out the garbage. I can't say the same for a heretic on a stage- the mockery of Christ is more than I can bear. Perhaps some have the strength of faith to do both, but I am not one of them. 

Theognome


----------



## WarrenInSC

Theognome said:


> D. Paul said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Theognome; said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have watched movies knowing full well that they do not support Orthodox doctrine but have been entertained none-the-less; for entertainment alone was what I was seeking while straining out the garbage. I can't say the same for a heretic on a stage- the mockery of Christ is more than I can bear. Perhaps some have the strength of faith to do both, but I am not one of them.
> 
> Theognome
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## TimV

Who's Joyce Meyer?


----------



## CDM

TimV said:


> Who's Joyce Meyer?



A woman preacher...shall I go on? 

Ok, I will  

She's a tongue-speaking, devil-rebuking, name-it-and-claim-it, charismatic / pentecostalist. An extremely wealthy peddler of the prosperity gospel. . .

. . . And as Paul would say "reprobate concerning the faith" (2 Tim 3:8).

And while I'm at it, I do not see how any Christian can attend one of her wicked, devil worshipping, blasphemous false-gospel fests and think that God is pleased. (Before you ask, yes, this is the nicest way I can say it)


----------



## Knoxienne

LawrenceU said:


> Knoxienne said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wanna go on a Pastor John Weaver cruise. Tybee Island, BABY!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey we could all go and check in on Honor!
Click to expand...


True!


----------



## puritan lad

Whitefield said:


> Tell her you are going to take her out for a romantic dinner and good movie, instead.



Amen. Or get her consider how much good beer that you could buy instead of a JM Ticket.


----------



## Knoxienne

puritan lad said:


> Whitefield said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tell her you are going to take her out for a romantic dinner and good movie, instead.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amen. Or get her consider how much good beer that you could buy instead of a JM Ticket.
Click to expand...


Or good s!!!


----------



## BobVigneault

Hey Chris, get off the fence and tell us what you really think. Your description reminds me of the wonderful opening scene in The Music Man with the rhythm of the train keeping cadence with the salesmen's rap. Joyce Meyer could be compared to Harold Hill:

"She's just a bang beat, bell ringing, big haul, great go, neck or nothin, rip roarin, every time a bull's eye salesman."

Oh yeah, and I'll throw in that she's a 'two bit thimble rigger' as well.



CDM said:


> TimV said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who's Joyce Meyer?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A woman preacher...shall I go on?
> 
> Ok, I will
> 
> She's a tongue-speaking, devil-rebuking, name-it-and-claim-it, charismatic / pentecostalist. An extremely wealthy peddler of the prosperity gospel. . .
> 
> . . . And as Paul would say "reprobate concerning the faith" (2 Tim 3:8).
> 
> And while I'm at it, I do not see how any Christian can attend one of her wicked, devil worshipping, blasphemous false-gospel fests and think that God is pleased. (Before you ask, yes, this is the nicest way I can say it)
Click to expand...


----------



## Craig

D. Paul said:


> OK, it's 1000 to 1 against my going; Calvin'sCuz the lone "Yay".
> 
> I am now going to dare broach a touchy subject.
> 
> ***Disclaimer: I am *NOT* attempting to skirt the issue or conjure some rationale. _*I agree*_ concerning JM's heretical teachings etc. I was forced several years ago to investigate the teachings of the whole bunch of WordFaith nut-jobs. I read Charismatic Chaos, A Different Gospel, Power Religion, Blinded By Might etc and have had many one-on-ones with a former Pastor who leaned heavily on WordFaith stuff. So I've done a good bit of homework. So...
> 
> My wife and I took a walk together this evening and I brought up the weekend. The conversation went OK but also went as expected. But I thought of something. Recall the threads regarding Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ movie? We had some here on the PB who went to see it. My only reason for bringing that up is that the same reasons presented here regarding JM could be used for those who saw The Passion. It makes it neither right nor wrong, but heresy / blasphemy is what it is.
> 
> Now, I'm not tracking who saw The Passion and who is posting the "Nay" in this thread to find discrepancy or  hypocrisy, but is the parallel warranted or am I missing something?



There may be a parallel...but I'm one of those guys that did not see The Passion.

There is a big difference, however, when one medium is entertainment and the other poses as edification. This event will certainly not be you washing your wife in the Word.

In reality will there be a great evil wreaked from attending JM? I don't know...maybe not. It sounds like your wife keeps up with these sorts of teachers, so now she simply has her husband following her to a JM event.

You could take notes of all the wrong things taught, then talk about that together as a group...but how effective is that usually? It will become a battle of proof texting, really.

If it was me, I'd make the choice really easy for my wife: 
"I'll go, but it will only be to disrupt the teaching. I cannot keep my mouth shut while JM opens up her mouth."

Your wife will not want to be embarrassed...neither will your friends. They'll probably just feel sorry for you and how much of a pharasaical legalist you are


----------



## Rogerant

This is a good opportunity for you take take a role in your responsibilities to "lead" your household in the proper method of worship. It looks like it is time for you to spend some time studying the differences between JM's teaching and the Word with your wife. I would tell her that it goes against your conscience to attend such an event. You do not have to feel afraid of your wife's response as it is a matter of conscience.


----------



## christiana

Would going to hear Joyce Meyer show to others that you are strongly taking a stand for Truth and orthodox doctrine?

Once we decide to do something we can rationalize its acceptability, never seeking to confirm our decision by scriptural standards!


----------



## Whitefield

CDM said:


> TimV said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who's Joyce Meyer?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A woman preacher...shall I go on?
> 
> Ok, I will
> 
> She's a tongue-speaking, devil-rebuking, name-it-and-claim-it, charismatic / pentecostalist. An extremely wealthy peddler of the prosperity gospel. . .
> 
> . . . And as Paul would say "reprobate concerning the faith" (2 Tim 3:8).
> 
> And while I'm at it, I do not see how any Christian can attend one of her wicked, devil worshipping, blasphemous false-gospel fests and think that God is pleased. (Before you ask, yes, this is the nicest way I can say it)
Click to expand...


Is that vote aye or nay?


----------



## Rogerant

_“And then they were taught what to do if certain men are gone out from among you saying “Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known” And “then shall thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently, and behold, if it be the truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you. That thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein.”_ Deut: 12 and 13

When the children of Israel heard of this altar, they gathered themselves together to go to war against those who built the altar and to “cut them off”. And according to Moses’ words they inquired, made search and asked diligently to ascertain whether they had turned away from the true worship of God and were building an altar to make sacrifice on to other gods. And the three tribes responded:

_“The LORD God of gods, the LORD God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the LORD, (save us not this day,) That we have built us an altar to turn from following the LORD, or if to offer thereon burnt offering or meat offering, or if to offer peace offerings thereon, let the LORD himself require it; And if we have not rather done it for fear of this thing, saying, In time to come your children might speak unto our children, saying, What have ye to do with the LORD God of Israel? For the LORD hath made Jordan a border between us and you, ye children of Reuben and children of Gad; ye have no part in the LORD: so shall your children make our children cease from fearing the LORD. Therefore we said, Let us now prepare to build us an altar, not for burnt offering, nor for sacrifice: But that it may be a witness between us, and you, and our generations after us, that we might do the service of the LORD before him with our burnt offerings, and with our sacrifices, and with our peace offerings; that your children may not say to our children in time to come, Ye have no part in the LORD. Therefore said we, that it shall be, when they should so say to us or to our generations in time to come, that we may say again, Behold the pattern of the altar of the LORD, which our fathers made, not for burnt offerings, nor for sacrifices; but it is a witness between us and you."_ (Josh 22:22)

So, when someone suggests that you go and worship a strange god, you should inquire, and make search, and ask diligently to see whether their altar of witness (testimony)reflects the true altar in heaven. Our altar of witness (testimony) are the confessions and creeds. The witness, confession or testimony (rock) that Jesus is the Christ the chief cornerstone of the altar. (Matt 16:13-18) And the apostles and the reformers were building upon this altar of witness with prescious stones of doctrines and confessional statements, not with wood hay or stubble.

Joyce Myers and others like her do not have an altar that we recognize. Therefore, we are not to have anything to do with them. They need to know that we believe that they have gone off to serve other gods.


----------



## D. Paul

puritan lad said:


> Whitefield said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tell her you are going to take her out for a romantic dinner and good movie, instead.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amen. Or get her consider how much good beer that you could buy instead of a JM Ticket.
Click to expand...


No cost involved...not that that bears any weight.

-----Added 5/28/2009 at 11:22:50 EST-----



Craig said:


> There is a big difference, however, when one medium is entertainment and the other poses as edification. This event will certainly not be you washing your wife in the Word.
> 
> In reality will there be a great evil wreaked from attending JM? I don't know...maybe not. It sounds like your wife keeps up with these sorts of teachers, so now she simply has her husband following her to a JM event.
> 
> You could take notes of all the wrong things taught, then talk about that together as a group...but how effective is that usually? It will become a battle of proof texting, really.
> 
> If it was me, I'd make the choice really easy for my wife:
> "I'll go, but it will only be to disrupt the teaching. I cannot keep my mouth shut while JM opens up her mouth."
> 
> Your wife will not want to be embarrassed...neither will your friends. They'll probably just feel sorry for you and how much of a pharasaical legalist you are



*"...when one medium is entertainment and the other poses as edification..."*

I forget which Evangelical said that The Passion movie would be the greatest evangelistic tool of our time.

*It sounds like your wife keeps up with these sorts of teachers, so now she simply has her husband following her to a JM event.*

No, not at all. In fact she pays them no attention. In the past, I have made it a point to document what had been "preached" and then gone to Scripture to show her why they were (are) in error. 

Regarding my early statement that I had no "means of escape", I was wrong. I am going to have a conversation with *Mr.* Friends-of-Ours. If the main point to all of this was to finally have some prolonged time to spend together (and it was), I will suggest that we all go out for breakfast, take in a matinee movie (NOT The Passion and then come to our house and play Wii or something. Due to our previous conversations, he would understand completely.

-----Added 5/28/2009 at 11:29:01 EST-----



christiana said:


> Once we decide to do something we can rationalize its acceptability, never seeking to confirm our decision by scriptural standards!



Thank you, Christiana. That is the very thing I fear everyone believes I am doing. This *is* an opportunity to uphold the Truth.


----------



## christiana

'And in all that I have said to you, be circumspect and make no mention of the name of other gods, nor let it be heard from your mouth.' Ex 23:13

Their Sorrows shall be multiplied who hasten after another god;
Their drink offerings of blood I will not offer,
Nor take their names on my lips. Ps 16:4

You shall not make mention of the name of their gods, nor cause anyone to swear by them; you shall not serve them nor bow down to them, but you shall hold fast to the Lord your God, as you have done to this day. Josh 23:7,8

Have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. Eph 5:12

Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature. 1 Cor 14:20

Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. Mt 10:16

For I will take from her mouth the names of the Baals,
And they shall be remembered by their name no more. Hos 2:17

Departure from the faith begins with our very first step away from His wholesome words!
For me, these verses say to steer clear of all that is not pure doctrine, lest your mind become contaminated with falsehood! All that goes into our mind comes out in our life!


----------



## GTMOPC

LadyFlynt said:


> We couldn't/wouldn't go. No way, no how, not even if she offered us her mansion.



She's giving away her mansion? I'll take her private jet if the mansion is already gone. Now that's living the prosperity gospel, share it.


----------



## Craig

D. Paul said:


> I am going to have a conversation with *Mr.* Friends-of-Ours. If the main point to all of this was to finally have some prolonged time to spend together (and it was), I will suggest that we all go out for breakfast, take in a matinee movie (NOT The Passion and then come to our house and play Wii or something. Due to our previous conversations, he would understand completely.



After all the hub-ub on the PB...you can't make it sound so simple


----------



## D. Paul

Craig said:


> D. Paul said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am going to have a conversation with *Mr.* Friends-of-Ours. If the main point to all of this was to finally have some prolonged time to spend together (and it was), I will suggest that we all go out for breakfast, take in a matinee movie (NOT The Passion and then come to our house and play Wii or something. Due to our previous conversations, he would understand completely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After all the hub-ub on the PB...you can't make it sound so simple
Click to expand...


Has this not been the advice given: At any cost, to not go? After all the hub-ub I would think this would bring a sigh of relief.


----------



## toddpedlar

D. Paul said:


> Regarding my early statement that I had no "means of escape", I was wrong. I am going to have a conversation with *Mr.* Friends-of-Ours. If the main point to all of this was to finally have some prolonged time to spend together (and it was), I will suggest that we all go out for breakfast, take in a matinee movie (NOT The Passion and then come to our house and play Wii or something. Due to our previous conversations, he would understand completely.



Wonderful to hear, Donald. 

Does the church they attend have female preachers? I wonder if this would be a good time for you, since you're speaking to *Mr.* Friends-of-Yours, to take up that as one issue - man-to-man, asking whether he thinks its appropriate, given the Scriptural witness against women in authority and teaching in the church, to even consider going to her conference. It might prove a fruitful providence to discuss this AND the issue of what she actually spews forth into the microphone - but certainly the concept of male headship in the home and male-only authority in the church is something you could address in your one-on-one discussion.


----------



## D. Paul

No, Todd. We all attend the same General Baptist Conference Church.


----------



## toddpedlar

D. Paul said:


> No, Todd. We all attend the same General Baptist Conference Church.



Oh... hm. But the BGC doesn't ordain women, right? I know that Open Theism has a huge inroad into the BGC, but it seems to me that Joyce Meyer's brand of name-it-claim-it would be totally at odds with BGC doctrinal positions. 

I assume you've covered that ground before, but it would seem to me that this is an EASY place to start a new discussion.


----------



## Michael Butterfield

LawrenceU said:


> Since you asked, I wouldn't see Beth Moore either.





-----Added 5/28/2009 at 09:15:13 EST-----



Abd_Yesua_alMasih said:


> Would people who would refuse to see Joyce Meyer also refuse to go to a university lecture on a topic they disagreed with or, for example, attend a relatives graduation where the key note address is from someone you disagreed with?
> 
> Isn't there a way to simply protect yourself from their influence while using the topic as an opening to discussion?



 Apples and oranges. Sorry mate


----------



## Augusta

My daughter and I have been reading all 3 pages in suspense waiting to see what D. Paul would do! Praise God he is not going!  Who would of thought the PB could be so suspenseful?


----------



## marysue

I agree with all the don't go'ers. My mom is very much in to the charismatic hog wash like your friends. She always tells me how she calls TBN to give prayer requests for our family, I've tried to talk to her about the heresy all that is, but what can I say she likes the ear candy. And I know exactly what you mean about your friends gushing over how "awesome" it was, I went to a Paula White event with my sister (while I was a false convert) only to hear her rave over what an awesome experience it was, even then I knew that lady was just wack


----------



## D. Paul

toddpedlar said:


> D. Paul said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, Todd. We all attend the same General Baptist Conference Church.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh... hm. But the BGC doesn't ordain women, right? I know that Open Theism has a huge inroad into the BGC, but it seems to me that Joyce Meyer's brand of name-it-claim-it would be totally at odds with BGC doctrinal positions.
> 
> I assume you've covered that ground before, but it would seem to me that this is an EASY place to start a new discussion.
Click to expand...


No, the BGC does not ordain women into the Pastorate. But neither do I observe that they are so far removed from the Bill Hybels / Rick Warren model that they would not consider myriad methodologies to promote the end, whether it be advocating Beth Moore, Kay Arthur, Elizabeth Elliot etc. These still violate 1Cor 14:34, do they not? 

We all know how things creep in to the Church. Ours has become increasingly influenced toward Pentecostal forms of "worship" as is evidenced by the influx of people from Pentecostal churches whose congregations have dissolved, split etc. 

So, while the BGC may not approve of JM et al, individual members (some steeped in WordFaith) may still embrace whichever teaching they like without a murmur of criticism.

K. Arthur and E. Elliot teach men also, yes? Who is objecting to them? I mention them only to point out inconsistency in churches general, not Reformed.


----------



## Ivan

D. Paul said:


> No, the BGC does not ordain women into the Pastorate. But neither do I observe that they are so far removed from the Bill Hybels / Rick Warren model that they would not consider myriad methodologies to promote the end, whether it be advocating Beth Moore, Kay Arthur, Elizabeth Elliot etc. These still violate 1Cor 14:34, do they not?



The church growth and word of faith movement runs rampant in evangelical churches and even in some reformed camps, if appears. I believe these movements, along with a few others, are ripping the spiritual guts out of our churches. Islam? Secularism? Atheism? These are nothing compared to what is already eating at the innards of churches. We all have a responsibility to stand up against these movements in the field that we have been planted.

The Church of Jesus Christ will stand! When it's all said and done I wonder what will remain.


----------



## Craig

D. Paul said:


> Craig said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> D. Paul said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am going to have a conversation with *Mr.* Friends-of-Ours. If the main point to all of this was to finally have some prolonged time to spend together (and it was), I will suggest that we all go out for breakfast, take in a matinee movie (NOT The Passion and then come to our house and play Wii or something. Due to our previous conversations, he would understand completely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After all the hub-ub on the PB...you can't make it sound so simple
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Has this not been the advice given: At any cost, to not go? After all the hub-ub I would think this would bring a sigh of relief.
Click to expand...


It is a sigh of relief...sorry if my tongue in cheek comment wasn't clearer. I should stick my tongue in the cheek and waggle it a bit more


----------



## Grace Alone

D. Paul said:


> toddpedlar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> D. Paul said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, Todd. We all attend the same General Baptist Conference Church.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh... hm. But the BGC doesn't ordain women, right? I know that Open Theism has a huge inroad into the BGC, but it seems to me that Joyce Meyer's brand of name-it-claim-it would be totally at odds with BGC doctrinal positions.
> 
> I assume you've covered that ground before, but it would seem to me that this is an EASY place to start a new discussion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, the BGC does not ordain women into the Pastorate. But neither do I observe that they are so far removed from the Bill Hybels / Rick Warren model that they would not consider myriad methodologies to promote the end, whether it be advocating Beth Moore, Kay Arthur, Elizabeth Elliot etc. These still violate 1Cor 14:34, do they not?
> 
> We all know how things creep in to the Church. Ours has become increasingly influenced toward Pentecostal forms of "worship" as is evidenced by the influx of people from Pentecostal churches whose congregations have dissolved, split etc.
> 
> So, while the BGC may not approve of JM et al, individual members (some steeped in WordFaith) may still embrace whichever teaching they like without a murmur of criticism.
> 
> K. Arthur and E. Elliot teach men also, yes? Who is objecting to them? I mention them only to point out inconsistency in churches general, not Reformed.
Click to expand...


I know that Kay Arthur's ministry has men to teach men. But I think there may be occasions that men show up with their wives for certain presentations. I guess they could turn them away??? I am not really aware of Elizabeth Elliot teaching men...can you please give the specifics of that? I do think women can speak to mixed groups as long as it is not in a worship service, can't they? Isn't it up to the men to decide if they want to listen or not? If men didn't sometimes listen or read women author/speakers, how would they know if it was acceptable for their wives or daughters?


----------



## he beholds

Grace Alone said:


> D. Paul said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> toddpedlar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh... hm. But the BGC doesn't ordain women, right? I know that Open Theism has a huge inroad into the BGC, but it seems to me that Joyce Meyer's brand of name-it-claim-it would be totally at odds with BGC doctrinal positions.
> 
> I assume you've covered that ground before, but it would seem to me that this is an EASY place to start a new discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, the BGC does not ordain women into the Pastorate. But neither do I observe that they are so far removed from the Bill Hybels / Rick Warren model that they would not consider myriad methodologies to promote the end, whether it be advocating Beth Moore, Kay Arthur, Elizabeth Elliot etc. These still violate 1Cor 14:34, do they not?
> 
> We all know how things creep in to the Church. Ours has become increasingly influenced toward Pentecostal forms of "worship" as is evidenced by the influx of people from Pentecostal churches whose congregations have dissolved, split etc.
> 
> So, while the BGC may not approve of JM et al, individual members (some steeped in WordFaith) may still embrace whichever teaching they like without a murmur of criticism.
> 
> K. Arthur and E. Elliot teach men also, yes? Who is objecting to them? I mention them only to point out inconsistency in churches general, not Reformed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I know that Kay Arthur's ministry has men to teach men. But I think there may be occasions that men show up with their wives for certain presentations. I guess they could turn them away??? I am not really aware of Elizabeth Elliot teaching men...can you please give the specifics of that? I do think women can speak to mixed groups as long as it is not in a worship service, can't they? Isn't it up to the men to decide if they want to listen or not? If men didn't sometimes listen or read women author/speakers, how would they know if it was acceptable for their wives or daughters?
Click to expand...


I have to agree--the Bible doesn't say women don't have anything to offer men. I am sure men listen to their female professors. I don't see a problem with a lecture, even on theology, being presented by a woman to both sexes. 

Otherwise, quit complaining about how un-theological we women are...


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## D. Paul

*Update*

I know I'll regret this, but to be fair with everyone who posted...

I went.  I suppose there is no more to say. Should I submit my resignation to the PB? How does one "repent" for something like this? 

Turns out, the "main event" for us was the Goth Convention (Yes, a Goth Convention) next door at the Hyatt. Lots of black, lots of tattoos and piercings and lots of very talented artists who are sadly misusing their talents. It was kinda creepy, actually. The spirit was palpable.

Anyway, sorry, y'all. Hope I'm not too big of a disappointment.


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## LawrenceU

Each man must do what he must. 

How'd it go?


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## D. Paul

Augusta said:


> My daughter and I have been reading all 3 pages in suspense waiting to see what D. Paul would do! Praise God he is not going!  Who would of thought the PB could be so suspenseful?



Apologize to your daughter for me.


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## kalawine

Lighten up on Joyce. He's not a bad guy.


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## D. Paul

LawrenceU said:


> Each man must do what he must.
> 
> How'd it go?



It was rather uneventful, actually. JM said nothing outright offensive or blasphemous. Common Arminianism. But we spoke little of what she actually "taught". Again, we got caught up in the Goth thing.


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## kalawine

D. Paul said:


> LawrenceU said:
> 
> 
> 
> Each man must do what he must.
> 
> How'd it go?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was rather uneventful, actually. JM said nothing outright offensive or blasphemous. Common Arminianism. But we spoke little of what she actually "taught". Again, we got caught up in the Goth thing.
Click to expand...


So... have I misunderstood you? At first I thought that you meant that the Goth "thing" was at a nearby hotel. Are you saying that it had something to do with JM's ministry?!?!?!


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## Edward

D. Paul said:


> Turns out, the "main event" for us was the Goth Convention (Yes, a Goth Convention) next door at the Hyatt. Lots of black, lots of tattoos and piercings and lots of very talented artists who are sadly misusing their talents. It was kinda creepy, actually.



Sounds like the Goth convention would have been the better option.


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## kalawine

Edward said:


> D. Paul said:
> 
> 
> 
> Turns out, the "main event" for us was the Goth Convention (Yes, a Goth Convention) next door at the Hyatt. Lots of black, lots of tattoos and piercings and lots of very talented artists who are sadly misusing their talents. It was kinda creepy, actually.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like the Goth convention would have been the better option.
Click to expand...


Oh, no doubt! No doubt indeed!


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## D. Paul

kalawine said:


> So... have I misunderstood you? At first I thought that you meant that the Goth "thing" was at a nearby hotel. Are you saying that it had something to do with JM's ministry?!?!?!



The Goth convention WAS at a nearby Hotel and had nothing to do with JM. It was just that the Goths were so fascinating that they became the topic of conversation.


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## ww

> If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine [i.e. the doctrine of Christ], receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds (2 Jn. 10,11).



Just read this thread for the first time and believe that the above passage is definitely applicable to attending such an event like a JM conference.


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## kalawine

D. Paul said:


> kalawine said:
> 
> 
> 
> So... have I misunderstood you? At first I thought that you meant that the Goth "thing" was at a nearby hotel. Are you saying that it had something to do with JM's ministry?!?!?!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Goth convention WAS at a nearby Hotel and had nothing to do with JM. It was just that the Goths were so fascinating that they became the topic of conversation.
Click to expand...


AMEN! So the Goths were a deterent! I'd rather my kids wear a nose ring than to be caught up in JM!  Of course, I'd prefer neither.


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## toddpedlar

D. Paul said:


> I know I'll regret this, but to be fair with everyone who posted...
> 
> I went.  I suppose there is no more to say. Should I submit my resignation to the PB? How does one "repent" for something like this?



The same way as you would any other thing... but in order to repent you have to genuinely believe it was wrong of you to do it, and genuinely wish you hadn't. You can't repent if you think it was an okay choice to have made.


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## toddpedlar

D. Paul said:


> LawrenceU said:
> 
> 
> 
> Each man must do what he must.
> 
> How'd it go?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was rather uneventful, actually. JM said nothing outright offensive or blasphemous. Common Arminianism. But we spoke little of what she actually "taught". Again, we got caught up in the Goth thing.
Click to expand...


She might have said nothing outright blasphemous or offensive, but the mere fact that she was standing in the stage usurping the role of a pastor/teacher is offensive enough. Common Arminianism and/or Pentecostal heresy isn't the only problem. (but I've probably beaten that horse far too long)


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## Herald

toddpedlar said:


> D. Paul said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know I'll regret this, but to be fair with everyone who posted...
> 
> I went.  I suppose there is no more to say. Should I submit my resignation to the PB? How does one "repent" for something like this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The same way as you would any other thing... but in order to repent you have to genuinely believe it was wrong of you to do it, and genuinely wish you hadn't. You can't repent if you think it was an okay choice to have made.
Click to expand...


This is one of the most important aspects of repentance. If you honestly had no problem with attending then you are not able to repent. You must understand the sin involved in order to turn from it.


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## D. Paul

toddpedlar said:


> ... but the mere fact that she was standing in the stage usurping the role of a pastor/teacher is offensive enough.



Those words were, and still are ringing in my ears.

-----Added 6/5/2009 at 11:16:46 EST-----



Joshua said:


> Brother. I hope you will never willingly subject your wife (or anyone for that matter) to such garbage again. It's one thing to attend some secular event, yet quite another that claims to be the Christian Faith but is really just a synagogue of Satan.



Thank you, Josh.

-----Added 6/5/2009 at 11:25:45 EST-----



Herald said:


> The same way as you would any other thing... but in order to repent you have to genuinely believe it was wrong of you to do it, and genuinely wish you hadn't. You can't repent if you think it was an okay choice to have made.



This is one of the most important aspects of repentance. If you honestly had no problem with attending then you are not able to repent. You must understand the sin involved in order to turn from it.[/QUOTE]

Thank you, Herald.
I stated in an earlier post that I have had my share of exposure to WordFaith teaching and have raised many objections along the way. To say I "had no problem with attending" would be the furthest from the case. I suppose those are empty words at this point.


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