# Seminary Decisions: WSC, WTS, Reedemer, and PTS (hope this got your attention)



## nothingnewundersun (Apr 23, 2012)

Hello,

First post on PB (long time browser, though). 

I'm currently an undergrad student and have been researching seminaries for the last year or so--this forum has definitely been helpful. 

As the title reads, I'm considering the four seminaries. For those not familiar with Redeemer, it was formerly a WTS branch established in Dallas,TX and now an independent seminary maintaining similar values. 

For those wondering about PTS, I have to say that I, too, had my doubts about the school until I read more about the value of attending "big name" schools as suggested by the likes of Richard Lints and Mike Horton. 

Right now, I am without a doubt leaning towards WSC: the faculty, student-teacher ratio, unwavering commitment to academic rigor and Reformed theology are just the few things that have drawn me towards that seminary. With the addition of Dr. Glomsrud, I'm looking forward the added range he'll bring as an expert in Modern Theology (Lord-willing I go there).

My main concern deals with finances. The reason why I'm considering PTS at all, aside from the benefit of attending a brand name school, is their well-known generous financial grants (not loans). 

Please let me know your thoughts as I still have a year left of undergrad and will be combing through all the suggestions carefully! 

Thanks!


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## Covenant Joel (Apr 23, 2012)

What are you planning on doing with your seminary degree? That might influence people's suggestions.


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## nothingnewundersun (Apr 23, 2012)

Covenant Joel, 

Great suggestion. I will be pursuing an MDiv with the hopes of a PhD (in historical theology). I've been wrestling over this very question for a while--that is, what will I be doing after seminary--with balanced inputs from those who were well informed regarding the bleak job market for professors, who nonetheless pointed out that PhD's can make a better pastor. At the end of the day, I'm following the advice of my pastor who said "if you can get more education, go for it." 

It must be noted that what I am NOT willing to do is to see the pastoral ministry as somewhat of a "consolation" prize. My desire is to use the PhD for PASTORAL ministry first. A lot of my YRR friends love the glamor of the academic ministry and jump in to the PhD track in hopes of becoming the next Mike Horton or D.A. Carson. As much as I appreciate their zeal for all things cognitive, I hold dear the things of the church and I believe if churches had all the resources, seminaries will not exist. Just my two cents but that's where my friends and I differ. 

As for the certainty of a career path, I can rest in uncertainty knowing that J.Gresham Machen himself went through similar struggles (Stonehouse's biography). 

Thanks.


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## Alan D. Strange (Apr 23, 2012)

Nothingnew:

I would, of course, urge anyone looking for an M.Div. that is thoroughly rigorous academically and deeply pastoral ministerially to give Mid-America Reformed Seminary (Dyer, IN) a look and, even better, a visit. What denomination are you, may I ask?

We weren't on the list, but I do have something to say about the list. While you may wish to consider PTS for Ph.D. work, I would not at all consider them for an M.Div. Whatever you thought Michael Horton said in this respect, if he would recommend PTS for an M.Div., I would flatly disagree with him. They are not confessional, by any means, and you need a solid foundation for your M.Div. degree (like Mid-America or the other choices on your list). That is much more important that getting your degree at a "big name" school. 

Peace,
Alan


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## jogri17 (Apr 23, 2012)

I do enjoy the Princeton Campus and it's a good place for a PHD, but not for seminary. WSCAL where my homedog Dr. Scott CLark teachers is excellent, though Westminster is worth going to just because of Carl Trueman In my humble opinion. I go to Princeton often to visist and I love it for its beauty and history, but if you want to be a pastor, get your formative training where you can sit under godly men. Why do I say that? I'm finishing off my BTH in a liberal roman catholic school. It has nearly killed me spiritually. I would not want any brother to go through what I put myself through. 

Also make sure to get a signature done, its the rules here lol.


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## N. Eshelman (Apr 23, 2012)

PTS has great grants, but a sound education is more valuable than a cheap date for seminary. Don't fall for the old "we'll make it cheap for you...." 

Even back when Gerstner taught at PTS he was muzzled from teaching too much theology because he was too conservative. Talk to Ben Glaser (Backwoods Presbyterian) about PTS. It will limit the congregations that will be even interested in a candidate from PTS.


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## mjmacvey (Apr 23, 2012)

N. Eshelman said:


> PTS has great grants, but a sound education is more valuable than a cheap date for seminary. Don't fall for the old "we'll make it cheap for you...."
> 
> Even back when Gerstner taught at PTS he was muzzled from teaching too much theology because he was too conservative. Talk to Ben Glaser (Backwoods Presbyterian) about PTS. It will limit the congregations that will be even interested in a candidate from PTS.



I think the OP means Princeton Theological Seminary rather than Pittsburgh Theological Seminary, but I understand the confusion. Your concerns are valid either way.

---------- Post added at 12:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:09 PM ----------

Nothingnew, 

Welcome to the PB. I will ask Dr. Horton to clarify, but I am certain that he would not seriously recommend Princeton for anyone considering pastoral ministry in a confessional Reformed or Presbyterian denomination. I am sure he would have no problem recommending them for PhD work. Having a degree from a "big name" school means more at the post-graduate (Ph.D.) level than it does for a Master's degree. My advice, get the most solid reformed theological education you can at a school that will prepare you well for both pastoral ministry and Ph.D. work. 

We have students with similar interests to your own doing a dual track M.Div. + an M.A. Historical Theology (w/thesis) (4 years total). I can provide more info if you are interested. You are welcome to contact me (perhaps you already have).


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## reaganmarsh (Apr 23, 2012)

I have a pastor friend who went to Princeton for his M.Div. He began there as a theological moderate-to-liberal, and left having embraced the inspiration, inerrancy, and sufficiency of Scripture, and being led thereby into theological conservativism and confession of the 1689 LBC.

I asked him recently whether he regretted studying there. He said he didn't regret it from the aspect of now being able to defend biblical theology against a variety of attacks (i.e., the apologetical value). But, he continued, if he had it to do over again, he would attend a confessional seminary and just do a lot of street evangelism. He expressed that there are "holes" in his theology it'll probably take years to fill in (in terms of fuller and more coherent understanding of theology). 

My own experience wasn't nearly so drastic as his, but I transferred from NOBTS to SBTS because I didn't want to spend the rest of my life getting over what I learned in seminary (read: anti-reformed rhetoric), or wondering what questions I should be asking...and just to be frank, I didn't want to read the books that NOBTS classes assigned. The difference was night and day for my studies. Questions and discussions that weren't even on the horizon at NOBTS were the air you breathed at SBTS. Granted, the Abstract of Principles is a broad document. But it's abstracted from the 1689 LBC, and the profs I had taught in accordance with it (minus, I must clarify, covenant theology; only a few are covenantal in the classical RB sense).

Hope these 2 accounts help you out.


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## Jon Groce (Apr 23, 2012)

If your concern is finances, then you should lean even more heavily to WSC. I have been looking at seminaries for a long time myself, and WSC is extremely cheap. I too have interests in going for a PhD later on, but in New Testament. Because my academic interest is in NT, I myself may not go to WSC, since many other schools handle NT much better than WSC (WSC offers very little NT stuff outside of their core curriculum). But if I had that same interest in HT, I would have no doubt in my mind about going to WSC. Their HT program regularly sends students to PhD work at very prestigious schools. I would consider Princeton for a ThM or PhD, though.


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## nothingnewundersun (Apr 23, 2012)

Alan D. Strange said:


> Nothingnew:
> 
> I would, of course, urge anyone looking for an M.Div. that is thoroughly rigorous academically and deeply pastoral ministerially to give Mid-America Reformed Seminary (Dyer, IN) a look and, even better, a visit. What denomination are you, may I ask?
> 
> ...



I am currently attending a PCA church, though I might be looking into the URC or OPC (for confessional reasons). I'm not technologically savvy enough to figure out how to have my church background at the bottom (can anyone teach me?). 

I certainly would not say that Horton recommends an MDiv at PTS--what I meant to say when referring to Horton was that, there has been a certain sense of neglect among Reformed evangelicals towards a secular university education. Perhaps it would be better to say that Horton and Lints were merely suggesting that a PhD at a secular university might prove useful given their reputation and academic rigor. 

I hope that clears things up. Thanks for your suggestion.

---------- Post added at 03:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:55 PM ----------




jogri17 said:


> I do enjoy the Princeton Campus and it's a good place for a PHD, but not for seminary. WSCAL where my homedog Dr. Scott CLark teachers is excellent, though Westminster is worth going to just because of Carl Trueman In my humble opinion. I go to Princeton often to visist and I love it for its beauty and history, but if you want to be a pastor, get your formative training where you can sit under godly men. Why do I say that? I'm finishing off my BTH in a liberal roman catholic school. It has nearly killed me spiritually. I would not want any brother to go through what I put myself through.
> 
> Also make sure to get a signature done, its the rules here lol.



Ah! That's what it's called--a signature--I was spending an inordinate amount of time trying to figure out how to do it, obviously without success. As mentioned previously, can anyone let me know how to do it? 

Thanks for your suggestion. I definitely do agree that WSC has the best faculty (world-class) scholars and that itself has been one of their main appeals to me. In regards to my vocational future, however, I am less clear on what I would like to do. As noted earlier, I do believe that a certain sense of pastoral experience is necessary to teach at a seminary (presumably what a theological PhD would do). Thanks again.

---------- Post added at 03:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:58 PM ----------




jogri17 said:


> I do enjoy the Princeton Campus and it's a good place for a PHD, but not for seminary. WSCAL where my homedog Dr. Scott CLark teachers is excellent, though Westminster is worth going to just because of Carl Trueman In my humble opinion. I go to Princeton often to visist and I love it for its beauty and history, but if you want to be a pastor, get your formative training where you can sit under godly men. Why do I say that? I'm finishing off my BTH in a liberal roman catholic school. It has nearly killed me spiritually. I would not want any brother to go through what I put myself through.
> 
> Also make sure to get a signature done, its the rules here lol.



Ah! That's what it's called--a signature--I was spending an inordinate amount of time trying to figure out how to do it, obviously without success. As mentioned previously, can anyone let me know how to do it? 

Thanks for your suggestion. I definitely do agree that WSC has the best faculty (world-class) scholars and that itself has been one of their main appeals to me. In regards to my vocational future, however, I am less clear on what I would like to do. As noted earlier, I do believe that a certain sense of pastoral experience is necessary to teach at a seminary (presumably what a theological PhD would do). Thanks again.

---------- Post added at 04:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:59 PM ----------

Hi Mark,

I hope my response above regarding Horton's comments clarify what I meant to say about his recommendation of a "big-name" school. Again, I believe he merely suggested that evangelicals broaden their scope by attending a "secular" university (perhaps a part about laying a sound foundation was necessary). Yes, I've previously contacted you in regards to the MDiv+MA dual track. I'm leaning more towards an MDiv, however, for a various reasons (financial and academic pressure being the two big ones).

---------- Post added at 04:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:03 PM ----------

Hi Mark,

I hope my response above regarding Horton's comments clarify what I meant to say about his recommendation of a "big-name" school. Again, I believe he merely suggested that evangelicals broaden their scope by attending a "secular" university (perhaps a part about laying a sound foundation was necessary). Yes, I've previously contacted you in regards to the MDiv+MA dual track. I'm leaning more towards an MDiv, however, for a various reasons (financial and academic pressure being the two big ones).

---------- Post added at 04:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:05 PM ----------

Rev. Marsh,

Thank you for your thoughtful input. 

It says a lot about your pastor who went through PTS and had that experience to look back and honestly gauge how much he has lost by going to such a school. With all of the suggestions considered, it seems as though PTS will not be an option for me. I neither have the intellectual capacity nor mature wisdom to sift through the profs' theology as well as liberal attacks on my mustard seed reformed understanding of Christianity. 

Thanks again for your input.

---------- Post added at 04:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:10 PM ----------

Hi Jon,

Glad to see someone in a similar boat. Looks like you've done a fair amount of seminary research yourself! And yes, I would agree that WSC's HT department is second to none. I wouldn't write off WSC too quickly in regards to the NT studies, though. I know Prof. Joel Kim is doing NT interpretation in the Reformed tradition under Calvin scholar Richard Muller at Calvin seminary and Baugh's quite good. But again, I'm sure you've looked into different programs pertaining to your interests more carefully than I have. I'm sure Mark will have more to say about WSC grads doing NT PhD's. 

Thanks for your input.


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## Edward (Apr 23, 2012)

Since you don't have a sig, and I didn't spot any clues on your 'about' page, I'm not sure where you are located. Redeemer is probably a good choice if you are in the commuting area for one of its locations, but I'm not sure that it would be a destination seminary yet, although they are making a lot of progress. My recollection is that they are getting close on accreditation, but they haven't gotten that completed yet. If you are looking at an academic career, one of the Westminsters might be a better bet. If you are focusing on a pastorate in the South Central or Southwest areas, Redeemer might give you some good contacts.


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## nothingnewundersun (Apr 23, 2012)

Hi Edward, 

I've heard some great things about Redeemer and will perhaps visit the campus in the coming year or so. Geographically speaking, I'm closest to WSC (2 hours away by car). Finally got around to getting myself a signature. Thanks for your input.


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## Edward (Apr 23, 2012)

nothingnewundersun said:


> and will perhaps visit the campus in the coming year or so.



If you get over this way, let me know. The seminary is now located very near the Mockingbird rail stop, and is across the expressway from SMU and the site of the G.W. Bush presidential library. There are both conservative and moderate PCA churches not far from the seminary.


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## reaganmarsh (Apr 23, 2012)

Glad to help, and welcome to the PB! This board in itself is an education...I learn something new here every time I visit. 

Grace to you as you seek the leadership of the Holy Spirit for serving Christ's church.


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