# Ghosts, shades, and other things that go *whissh* in the night...



## FrozenChosen (Oct 28, 2004)

Recently a very reliable individual has claimed to have seen a ghost twice, and a few people who know him well say that he's not making it up.

I'm a skeptic when it comes to these kinds of stories. Primarily because I believe in angels and demons because of Scripture, but I can't recall any "ghost" references in the Bible. And where Scripture fails, I rely on the Spirit in me, my senses, and my rationality. So far, I haven't believed in ghosts.

But because of these friends I'm wondering to hear some trustworthy third opinions.

Do ghosts exist?


----------



## Craig (Oct 28, 2004)

No. I don't doubt there are deceptive spirits...but not disembodied human souls wandering the earth.


----------



## turmeric (Oct 28, 2004)

There is one possible appearance of a "ghost" in the Bible - the prophet Samuel was possibly allowed to appear to Saul and the medium of Endor after his death, for a purpose of God's. But this is by no means normal. (Visualize a "can of worms" emoticom here)


----------



## SmokingFlax (Oct 28, 2004)

Isn't Mark 7:49 a reference to "ghosts" in scripture? It doesn't affirm ghosts but it doesn't refute them either.

I have a couple of friends who swear they saw a ghost (at the same time) while driving at night on a stretch of road where a child was killed (hit by a car) many years prior. They're not believers but I have no reason to question their statements -I don't believe they're making it up.


----------



## C. Matthew McMahon (Oct 28, 2004)

Familiar spirits (demons) know people very well. They study a person for 80, the person dies, and then the ghost appears. No, the demoniac appears - the familiar spirit- impersonating the person. What does that do? It immediately overrides the Bible - to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. The dead are judged and sent to heaven or hell. Men and women are not roaming the earth. to accept that is to overthrow the judgment seat. so demons, which probably fool everyone with with things from ghosts to little green men and UFOs, are definitely out there to discredit the Bible. They want you to believe in them so you do not believe in The Word of God and what it says about judgment.

The case of Samuel is no ghost. Its the devil (or a demon). Samuel receives worship (And does not rebuke Saul for doing that), and tells Saul he will "be with him" when he dies. Think those through.


----------



## SmokingFlax (Oct 28, 2004)

This makes much sense and comes close to what I had deduced about ghosts. I think we should have defined what a "ghost" was before even getting into this topic. My impression was that it was always something demonic rather than a human entity which seems like Hollywood theology/metaphysics to me.

Your points are well taken.


----------



## Abd_Yesua_alMasih (Oct 29, 2004)

I have always considered these ghosts as demons for as long as I can remember... which isn´t very long now I come to think of it. If someone sees a 'ghost' and no matter how reliable they are it is their perception. In the end it is just a word and if Christians have an understanding that ghosts are really demons then it all works out the same doesn´t it? I mean it might confuse people if they are non-believers but who knows.


----------



## RamistThomist (Oct 29, 2004)

> _Originally posted by webmaster_
> 
> The case of Samuel is no ghost. Its the devil (or a demon). Samuel receives worship (And does not rebuke Saul for doing that), and tells Saul he will "be with him" when he dies. Think those through.



By and large I agree with you, but someone might point out that it would be odd for a demon to prophecy accurately? Maybe? I don't know...


----------



## Contra_Mundum (Oct 29, 2004)

Previous thread on Saul at Endor
http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=2845


----------



## VirginiaHuguenot (Oct 29, 2004)

So, what are we to make of "ghost stories"?


----------



## BobVigneault (Oct 29, 2004)

Ghost stories are simply an alternative expanation of demonic activity filtered through ones 'world view' that allows for the disembodied spirits of humans.

From Scripture and experience I believe Matt's analysis is right on.

I used to live in 'spook' central. Two different houses in two different parts of the country. I don't know if the demons followed my family or if they went with the house. It made for an interesting discussion with the realtor before I left the first one. There was a lot of activity in that house before we moved in.

Matt directed me to read Cotton Mather's description of his experience with the demonic and the oppression of one particular family. The experiences were very familiar to us.

I believe demons, love to impersonate the personalities of those they enjoyed oppressing in the past - some seem benign, some want to frighten and some want to destroy.

I don't understand why the Lord has permitted so MUCH oppression in my family, (and especially to my two daughters) but I know HE is just , His plan is perfect, and we are being transformed into the image of Christ


----------



## Scott (Oct 29, 2004)

> Matt directed me to read Cotton Mather's description of his experience with the demonic and the oppression of one particular family. The experiences were very familiar to us.



Can you direct me to this? Thanks


----------



## Scott (Oct 29, 2004)

Job 4:12-21 is another relevant passage. Eliphaz recounts an experience:




> "A word was secretly brought to me,
> my ears caught a whisper of it.
> 13 Amid disquieting dreams in the night,
> when deep sleep falls on men,
> ...


----------



## BobVigneault (Oct 29, 2004)

Hi Scott,
In these writings by Cotton Mather, Mather doesn't try to put together a means of exorcism or any particular method to deal with demons. He is simply describing what he saw and the results of some experiments he conducted with those being oppressed. Here is a link to the journal that I read through. 

http://www.piney.com/MatherWitch.html

We discussed these things on the board a while back.
http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=4037#pid48213

I believe the conclusions that Mather arrived it in dealing with the punishment of the 'witches' was not healthy. However, I don't believe his observations are exagerated and shouldn't be discounted because he perpetrated some wayward prosecutions. Doctrine cannot be based on experience and I draw no doctrinal conclusions from Mather's observation.


----------



## JWJ (Oct 29, 2004)

> _Originally posted by maxdetail_
> Doctrine cannot be based on experience and I draw no doctrinal conclusions from Mather's observation.


----------



## BobVigneault (Oct 29, 2004)

Thanks for the ditto Jim but I learned that great truth from you. 

I was really ditto-ing you friend.


----------



## turmeric (Oct 29, 2004)

There is no Mark 7:49!


----------



## VirginiaHuguenot (Oct 29, 2004)

Good point about Mark 7:49! 

Meanwhile, I am still wondering about ghost stories. Should Christians refrain from telling ghost stories around the campfire, watching movies like "Poltergeist" and "Amityville Horror," etc? 

That pagan holiday called Halloween is coming up, and enquiring minds want to know!!


----------



## BobVigneault (Oct 29, 2004)

I don't see the harm in watching or portraying fictional stories as long as they are understood by all to be fictional and for entertainment. If someone might want to use the storie as an apologetic for a non-christian world view then it might be good avoid it.

Folks who have come out of an occult background are going to be a lot more sensitive about such things.

We need to maintain a clear distinction between reality and theatrics.

my


----------



## VirginiaHuguenot (Oct 29, 2004)

Thanks! This is where I stand currently on the matter, but it's nice to hear it expressed by a brother.


----------



## SmokingFlax (Oct 29, 2004)

Quote:

"There is no Mark 7:49! "

Oops...I goofed. Maybe it was a ghost playing with my mind...

I meant to write Mark 6:49...

48Â Â Â And he saw them toiling in rowing; for the wind was contrary unto them: and about the fourth watch of the night he cometh unto them, walking upon the sea, and would have passed by them.
49Â Â Â But when they saw him walking upon the sea, they supposed it had been a spirit, and cried out:
50Â Â Â For they all saw him, and were troubled. And immediately he talked with them, and saith unto them, Be of good cheer: it is I; be not afraid.

Doh!

[Edited on 29-10-2004 by SmokingFlax]


----------



## py3ak (Oct 30, 2004)

> By and large I agree with you, but someone might point out that it would be odd for a demon to prophecy accurately? Maybe? I don't know...



I think that the case of the demon-possessed girl whom Paul exorcised in Acts 16:16-19 shows that demons, at least sometimes, tell the truth. The text is not explicit, of course, is affirming that the girls divinations were accurate, but she represented accurate information about Paul and Silas, so it seems at least possible that predictions of the future were accurate (at times and in part, perhaps).


----------



## turmeric (Oct 30, 2004)

The first Hallowe'en after I was converted I was invited to a party with other Christians and couldn't bring myself to attend because it reminded me of my former dabbling with paganism. It's six years later and it just seems kind of funny to me, people dressing up and giving WAY too much candy to kids...It's the Celtic New Year, and, well, New Year is pretty pagan in our culture also.


----------



## Puritan Sailor (Oct 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by py3ak_
> 
> 
> > By and large I agree with you, but someone might point out that it would be odd for a demon to prophecy accurately? Maybe? I don't know...
> ...



It's also important to remember that Saul was under judgment. The kingdom had been taken from him and the Spirit had left him. It would not take a rocket scientist, let alone an age-old demon, to realize that his days were numbered, especially since he had been handed over to the god of this world.


----------



## Scot (Nov 1, 2004)

> Familiar spirits (demons) know people very well. They study a person for 80, the person dies, and then the ghost appears. No, the demoniac appears - the familiar spirit- impersonating the person. What does that do? It immediately overrides the Bible - to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. The dead are judged and sent to heaven or hell. Men and women are not roaming the earth. to accept that is to overthrow the judgment seat. so demons, which probably fool everyone with with things from ghosts to little green men and UFOs, are definitely out there to discredit the Bible. They want you to believe in them so you do not believe in The Word of God and what it says about judgment.
> 
> The case of Samuel is no ghost. Its the devil (or a demon). Samuel receives worship (And does not rebuke Saul for doing that), and tells Saul he will "be with him" when he dies. Think those through.



I agree with everything Matt said here.

I also think that alot of the so called visions, dreams, tongues, angel visitations, etc. in the charismatic/pentecostal "churches" are from this same source. Of course, alot of it is just people's emotions, imaginations, etc. but I think some are really experiencing supernatural things and they're definately not from God.

Satan and his demons appear to the secular world in order to decieve them and he also attacks certain churches coming as "an angel of light."


----------



## LarryCook (Nov 1, 2004)

And then there's Luke 24:39


> Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."


----------



## Puritan Sailor (Nov 1, 2004)

Isn't the Greek word there for "ghost" the same as "spirit." Perhaps he was saying a "demon" or "angel" does not have "flesh and bones"? Just a thought.... Greek experts??


----------



## Scot (Nov 1, 2004)

I'm no greek expert but the KJV says "spirit" instead of "ghost."


----------

