# Were the elect under the Covenant of Works "converted?"



## ColdSilverMoon (Sep 15, 2009)

Lately I've been trying to dig deeper into the implications of Covenant theology, since I realized my understanding of it was quite superficial. One of the things I've been trying to wrap my brain around is the nature of CoW conversion. Obviously God calls all His elect, but was Old Testament conversion and regeneration the same as the Old Man/New Man transformation in New Covenant? OT believers were obviously sanctified, but did the elect in the CoW, even if they kept the Law in letter, ever have a "conversion experience" when they developed a true saving faith? Or is it inappropriate to say OT believers were truly "converted" at all, since most kept the letter of the Law and at least had the proper intellectual knowledge of God even without true saving faith?

Sorry if this confusing - I'm obviously still trying to wrap my feeble mind around some of these concepts that are probably very clear to most of you on here!


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## Jimmy the Greek (Sep 15, 2009)

As I understand it, there was only one man under the CoW, Adam. OT Israel was not under a CoW.


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## discipulo (Sep 15, 2009)

ColdSilverMoon said:


> Lately I've been trying to dig deeper into the implications of Covenant theology, since I realized my understanding of it was quite superficial. One of the things I've been trying to wrap my brain around is the nature of CoW conversion. Obviously God calls all His elect, but was Old Testament conversion and regeneration the same as the Old Man/New Man transformation in New Covenant? OT believers were obviously sanctified, but did the elect in the CoW, even if they kept the Law in letter, ever have a "conversion experience" when they developed a true saving faith? Or is it inappropriate to say OT believers were truly "converted" at all, since most kept the letter of the Law and at least had the proper intellectual knowledge of God even without true saving faith?
> 
> Sorry if this confusing - I'm obviously still trying to wrap my feeble mind around some of these concepts that are probably very clear to most of you on here!



Mason

Old Testament believers were not saved by works but by Grace, through faith, like Romans 4 tells of Abraham. 

The Old Testament believers and their children related to God under the same Covenant of Grace as New Testament believers (and their children).

Differing in the way it is administered throughout Redemptive History, God relates to His elect under the same Covenant of Grace.

The Covenant of Works or of Life was the first covenant God made with the first man, Adam, who broke the covenant by his disobedience to God.

But I’m sure other brothers here will give you a more clear and exhaustive answer in other posts.


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## Romans 9:16 (Sep 15, 2009)

The following section of the WCF helps to illuminate some of the differences and similarities between Old Covenant and the New Covenant. I have included the scripture proofs for your study/meditation. 

20:1 The liberty which Christ hath purchased for believers under the Gospel consists in their freedom from the guilt of sin; the condemning wrath of God, the curse of the moral law (Gal_3:13; 1Th_1:10; Tit_2:14); and, in their being delivered from this present evil world, bondage to Satan, and dominion of sin (Act_26:18; Rom_6:14; Gal_1:4; Col_1:13), from the evil of afflictions, the sting of death, the victory of the grave, and everlasting damnation (Psa_119:71; Rom_8:1, Rom_8:28; 1Co_15:54-57); as also, in their free access to God (Rom_5:1, Rom_5:2), and their yielding obedience unto Him, not out of slavish fear, but a child-like love and willing mind (Rom_8:14, Rom_8:15; 1Jo_4:18). *All which were common also to believers under the law *(Gal_3:9, Gal_3:14). *But under the new testament*, the liberty of Christians is further enlarged, in their freedom from the yoke of the ceremonial law, to which the Jewish Church was subjected (Act_15:10, Act_15:11; Gal_4:1-3, Gal_4:6, Gal_4:7; Gal_5:1); and in greater boldness of access to the throne of grace (Heb_4:14, Heb_4:16; Heb_10:19-22), and in fuller communications of the free Spirit of God, than believers under the law did ordinarily partake of (Joh_7:38, Joh_7:39; 2Co_3:13, 2Co_3:17, 2Co_3:18).


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## BJClark (Sep 15, 2009)

ColdSilverMoon;

Honestly, I don't see where OT Saint's lived by a Covenant of Works, they lived by Faith; if we read the book of Hebrews Chapter 11, we find--

11:4-- By Faith Abel

11:5--By Faith Enoch

11:7- By Faith Noah

11:8--By Faith Abraham

11:11--Through faith Sara

And on and on it goes through the entire chapter..

And like we should be, in faith they were obedient where the 'works' followed..

Even looking at the circumcision--they stepped out in faith and were obedient to that..just as we should be obedient in Baptism..

The parents circumcised their infant boys at 8 days old..as an act of faith of the promises of God to them and their descendants; just as many within the Reformed Community baptize their infants--as an act of faith of the promises of God to them and their descendants..

And the adults who were not circumcised as infants--were circumcised as adults..just as we baptize adults who were not baptized as infants/children when they come in faith.

So even they lived by faith, not of works..but their faith produced their works..the same as ours should..


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## Peairtach (Sep 15, 2009)

The Old Testament period isn't in the Covenant of works but the Covenant of Grace.

The Covenant of Works whereby Adam could have bought eternal life for himself and his posterity by his obedience extends from the moment of Adam's creation to the moment he fell.

From the proto-evangelium (Genesis 3:15) until the end of the world we can only be saved by grace through faith.

*The Progressive Revelation of the Covenant of Grace *

1. The Proto-evangelium.

2. The Noahic Covenant.

3. The Abrahamic Covenant

4. The Mosaic or Old Covenant

5. The Davidic Covenant

6. The Christian or New Covenant.

It's clear that some within the Old Covenant believed and were justified, while others didn't and weren't. David in the Psalms speaks of _the just_ in contrast to _the wicked._

Some could have been converted in the womb like John the Baptist. When someone grows up within the Covenant - even today - he often can't pinpoint the moment he first exercised faith.

But we are told that even the young Samuel who worked in the tabernacle did not yet know the Lord when God spoke to him about Eli's disobedience.(I Sam. 3:7)

There is a lot of evidence throughout the Bible that the Old testament saints weren't all born with faith, and also that plenty Old Testament never ever exercised true faith: think of e.g. all the wicked kings of Israel and Judah.

Being outwardly in the Covenant of Grace is a great blessing from God, but if faith is not exercised by God's grace in response to that blessing, our judgment will only be greater. The same applies in the New Covenant phase of the Covenant of Grace, which is also, in particular, the New Covenant phase of the Abrahamic Covenant.

They had to be circumcised in heart as well as foreskin i.e. exercise faith from the heart (e.g. Deut. 10:16), just as we have to be baptised in the Spirit and not just outwardly with water (i.e. be regenerated/washed in Christ's blood by the application of the Spirit thus exercising faith).


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## A.J. (Sep 15, 2009)

Hello Mason. I think you're referring to the Old Covenant, not the Covenant of Works. OT saints and NT saints belong to the one and the same Covenant of Grace. All of them are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. The WCF states,



> Chapter 7. Of God's Covenant with Man.
> 
> 5. *This covenant was differently administered in the time of the law and in the time of the gospel*:a under the law it was administered by promises, prophecies, sacrifices, circumcision, the paschal lamb, and other types and ordinances delivered to the people of the Jews, all fore-signifying Christ to come,b which were for that time sufficient and efficacious, through the operation of the Spirit, to instruct and build up the elect in faith in the promised Messiah,c by whom they had full remission of sins and eternal salvation; and is called the Old Testament.d
> 
> ...



Notice that in the time of the gospel, the ordinances are "administered with more simplicity and less outward glory, yet in them it is held forth in more fulness, evidence, and spiritual efficacy." Yet the WCF also explains,



> Chapter 11. Of Justification.
> 
> 6. The justification of believers under the Old Testament was, in all these respects, *one and the same* with the justification of believers under the New Testament.a
> 
> a. Rom 4:22-24; Gal 3:9, 13-14; Heb 13:8.



All saints in both testaments believed in the same gospel and were saved by the same Savior.

The LC states,



> Q31: With whom was the covenant of grace made?
> A31: *The covenant of grace was made with Christ* as the second Adam, and in him *with all the elect* as his seed.[1]
> 
> 1. Gal. 3:16; Rom. 5:15-21; Isa. 53:10-11


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## Theogenes (Sep 15, 2009)

Paul shows in Romans 5:12-21 that the human race is represented by two federal heads; Adam and Jesus (the last Adam). All humans are in Adam and are therefore under the CoW and bear its penalty (death) because of Adam's sin and their own. God's elect are represented by the last Adam (Jesus) as their covenant head in the CoG and when the Holy Spirit applies to each one of them personally the work of Christ and they believe the Gospel they are translated out of the kingdom of darkenss into the kingdom of light. All in Christ will live (eternal life), all in Adam will die (second death-eternally).
People are either in Adam or in Christ. There is no other option.


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## coramdeo (Sep 15, 2009)

Thanks to Mason for posing the question and to all who gave such good answers; this thread brought a lot into focus for me viv-a-vis Conenant Theology.


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## sailorswife (Sep 15, 2009)

ColdSilverMoon said:


> Lately I've been trying to dig deeper into the implications of Covenant theology, since I realized my understanding of it was quite superficial. One of the things I've been trying to wrap my brain around is the nature of CoW conversion. Obviously God calls all His elect, but was Old Testament conversion and regeneration the same as the Old Man/New Man transformation in New Covenant? OT believers were obviously sanctified, but did the elect in the CoW, even if they kept the Law in letter, ever have a "conversion experience" when they developed a true saving faith? Or is it inappropriate to say OT believers were truly "converted" at all, since most kept the letter of the Law and at least had the proper intellectual knowledge of God even without true saving faith?
> 
> Sorry if this confusing - I'm obviously still trying to wrap my feeble mind around some of these concepts that are probably very clear to most of you on here!




Others have already answered your questions about the covenant of works sufficiently. Regarding the "conversion experience" of the OT saints, their experiences were just as varied as ours are today. Some had traumatic conversions like King Manassah or maybe Isaiah, some were called from birth like Jeremiah, others raised in the covenant probably couldn't pin down the moment of regeneration, they just knew that they were trusting in the Lord and in his promised Messiah, perhaps the case with David and Daniel.


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## Peairtach (Sep 15, 2009)

The language used under the Old Covenant for conversion, and in association with the beginning and course of salvation, may have been somewhat different to that used under the fuller revelation of the New Covenant.


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## Scott1 (Sep 15, 2009)

Why we view Scripture from the standpoint of covenant...



> Westminster Confession of Faith
> 
> Chapter VII
> Of God's Covenant with Man
> ...



The covenant of works defined (describes covenant with Adam before the Fall). Notice it is conditional:



> II. The first covenant made with man was a covenant of works,[2] wherein life was promised to Adam; and in him to his posterity,[3] upon condition of perfect and personal obedience.[4]



The Fall- Adam disobeys, falls as the "federal" head of the human race:



> III. Man, by his fall, having made himself incapable of life by that covenant, the Lord was pleased to make a second,[5] commonly called the covenant of grace; wherein He freely offers unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ; requiring of them faith in Him, that they may be saved,[6] and promising to give unto all those that are ordained unto eternal life His Holy Spirit, to make them willing, and able to believe.[7]



God was within His just rights to have destroyed man both spiritually and physically for the willful disobedience but He showed mercy. (Actually, this began when God caught Adam's disobedience and did not destroy him and end the human race):



> IV. This covenant of grace is frequently set forth in scripture by the name of a testament, in reference to the death of Jesus Christ the Testator, and to the everlasting inheritance, with all things belonging to it, therein bequeathed.[8]



Notice the substance (grace through faith in Christ's righteousness alone) of redemption is the same in Old and New Testaments:



> V. This covenant was differently administered in the time of the law, and in the time of the Gospel:[9] under the law it was administered by promises, prophecies, sacrifices, circumcision, the paschal lamb, and other types and ordinances delivered to the people of the Jews, all foresignifying Christ to come;[10] which were, for that time, sufficient and efficacious, through the operation of the Spirit, to instruct and build up the elect in faith in the promised Messiah,[11] by whom they had full remission of sins, and eternal salvation; and is called the Old Testament.[12]
> 
> VI. Under the Gospel, when Christ, the substance,[13] was exhibited, the ordinances in which this covenant is dispensed are the preaching of the Word, and the administration of the sacraments of Baptism and the Lord's Supper:[14] which, though fewer in number, and administered with more simplicity, and less outward glory, yet, in them, it is held forth in more fullness, evidence, and spiritual efficacy,[15] to all nations, both Jews and Gentiles;[16] and is called the New Testament.[17] There are not therefore two covenants of grace, differing in substance, but one and the same, under various dispensations.[18]



The covenant of grace was less explicit in the Old Testament but it still was based on grace through faith in the coming Redeemer and Messiah... Jesus Christ.

In the New Testament, same substance, and it is much more explicit in the person and work of our Lord Jesus Christ, the risen Savior and Redeemer.

It was faith looking toward this in the Old Testament, and back at it in the New Testament that was part of redemption "conversion" of believers in both Testaments.

The Scripture proofs for this chapter are an excellent study in mediation in the way God has worked justice and grace.


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## ColdSilverMoon (Sep 15, 2009)

A.J. said:


> Hello Mason. I think you're referring to the Old Covenant, not the Covenant of Works.



Yep, sorry for the confusion. This was a mistake on my part - I was referring to the Old Covenant, not the CoW. I have seen them used interchangably, which probably led to some of my confusion. 

First of all, thank you for all the helpful responses - much appreciated.

Second, I understand salvation is and has always been by grace through faith, but I was more concerned with the way in which a believer's walk was different (starting with their conversion) under the Mosaic/Old Covenant compared with us today under the New Covenant. As sailorswife contends, maybe it wasn't different at all...


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## carlgobelman (Sep 17, 2009)

Theogenes said:


> Paul shows in Romans 5:12-21 that the human race is represented by two federal heads; Adam and Jesus (the last Adam). All humans are in Adam and are therefore under the CoW and bear its penalty (death) because of Adam's sin and their own. God's elect are represented by the last Adam (Jesus) as their covenant head in the CoG and when the Holy Spirit applies to each one of them personally the work of Christ and they believe the Gospel they are translated out of the kingdom of darkenss into the kingdom of light. All in Christ will live (eternal life), all in Adam will die (second death-eternally).
> People are either in Adam or in Christ. There is no other option.



Could it be argued that Jesus (as the last Adam) fulfilled the CoW where the first Adam did not?

-----Added 9/17/2009 at 03:33:56 EST-----



Scott1 said:


> Why we view Scripture from the standpoint of covenant...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Scott,

I understand that the Old Covenant was part of the progressive revelation of the CoG, but in some sense could the Mosaic Law be regarded as a reinterpretation of the CoW?

For example, as you point out, the CoW was conditional; so was the Mosaic Law. Israel was allowed to remain in the Land as long as they obeyed the Law. The captivity was the culmination of continual breaking of the Mosaic Law to the point that the covenant curses were finally carried out on Israel. Also notice the similarities: Adam in paradise with a conditional covenant; Israel in 'paradise' (Promised Land, a land flowing with milk & honey). Adam expelled after breaking the covenant; Israel expelled after breaking the covenant. I realize we do see the CoG in effect as oftentimes God withholds his judgment on Israel out of remembrance of his covenant with Abraham. Finally, Jesus obtained our righteousness by obeying the Mosaic Law to perfection; thereby fulfilling the CoW where Adam failed.

Just some questions that I have been ruminating over.


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## TeachingTulip (Sep 17, 2009)

carlgobelman said:


> I understand that the Old Covenant was part of the progressive revelation of the CoG, but in some sense could the Mosaic Law be regarded as a reinterpretation of the CoW?



I believe so, yes.

The Mosaic Law further defined the commands given to Adam in the garden, so that Abraham's spiritual seed would realize the depths of their sinfulness, and turn to God's promises of a Savior for grace and forgiveness.

*"The Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith." Galatians 3:22-24*



> For example, as you point out, the CoW was conditional; so was the Mosaic Law. Israel was allowed to remain in the Land as long as they obeyed the Law. The captivity was the culmination of continual breaking of the Mosaic Law to the point that the covenant curses were finally carried out on Israel. Also notice the similarities: Adam in paradise with a conditional covenant; Israel in 'paradise' (Promised Land, a land flowing with milk & honey). Adam expelled after breaking the covenant; Israel expelled after breaking the covenant. I realize we do see the CoG in effect as oftentimes God withholds his judgment on Israel out of remembrance of his covenant with Abraham. Finally, Jesus obtained our righteousness by obeying the Mosaic Law to perfection; thereby fulfilling the CoW where Adam failed.



You have exactly stated my view.

All men, in Adam, are born under the CoW, and only those gifted with faith in the obedience of Jesus Christ, receive God's grace. 

Jesus Christ, the last Adam, was also born under the law (CoW), for it was necessary He perform and fulfill that covenant on behalf of His elect, so that they might be imputed with His righteous obedience and thereby established under the new Covenant of Grace.

*"For by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ." Romans 5:17*


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## PuritanCovenanter (Sep 17, 2009)

Some believe the CofW were republished in the Mosaic. Just do a search on the PB on Republication and Covenant of Works. You should have plenty to read.

http://www.puritanboard.com/f31/re-publication-covenant-works-question-49840/

Regeneration and Conversion are the same since Adam's failure.


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## lynnie (Sep 17, 2009)

So to rephrase the question, were they born again of an imperishable seed like we are, and unable to therefore fall away to damnation?

Hebrews 11 seems clear.... to have faith in the promised messiah and to offer up blood sacrifices in faith that sins would be atoned for, required a regenerated, born again heart. It was granted to some by grace before the cross as well as after. 

Solomon is a puzzle to me, ending up worshipping idols so badly. All that wisdom but was he regenerate?


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## Peairtach (Sep 17, 2009)

Solomon was regenerate and was responsible under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, for writing a portion of Holy Writ.

He backslid, as did his father David at one stage, and turned his back on his wisdom. We don't read of his spiritual restoration.

It shows how far a justified man could fall under the Old Testament, but we expect better things of ourselves.


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## Christusregnat (Sep 17, 2009)

ColdSilverMoon said:


> Lately I've been trying to dig deeper into the implications of Covenant theology



Mason,

This is a good place to be in, and a great way to do it!! Someone recently put up information on a book about covenant theology. I have not read the book myself, but would like to, and thought you might want to pick it up:

Blake

God bless,


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## ColdSilverMoon (Sep 17, 2009)

lynnie said:


> So to rephrase the question, were they born again of an imperishable seed like we are, and unable to therefore fall away to damnation?
> 
> Hebrews 11 seems clear.... to have faith in the promised messiah and to offer up blood sacrifices in faith that sins would be atoned for, required a regenerated, born again heart. It was granted to some by grace before the cross as well as after.
> 
> Solomon is a puzzle to me, ending up worshipping idols so badly. All that wisdom but was he regenerate?



That's not really my question, Lynnie. I don't think the elect in the OT could "fall away to damnation" anymore than the elect under the New Covenant can lose their salvation. 

My question is more of the nature of conversion from keeping the Law without faith to keeping of the Law by faith. In other words, OT saints may have kept the Law just as well before their conversion as they did after it. So practically speaking, what changed in their hearts and minds as a result of saving faith? Was it simply their approach to the Law? Or was it a pre-Sermon on the Mount understanding of the moral aspect of the Law? 

The heart of my question is: what was different about an OT saint before and after his conversion?


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## TeachingTulip (Sep 17, 2009)

ColdSilverMoon said:


> lynnie said:
> 
> 
> > So to rephrase the question, were they born again of an imperishable seed like we are, and unable to therefore fall away to damnation?
> ...



The problem was, all were under the Mosaic Law, but none of them could keep it. The purpose of the law was to bring men to dependence upon God's promises that "He would provide" (Gen. 22:14), rather than depending upon their own works.

So the O.T. sinner, who could not keep all the Law, changed into a O.T. saint when he was given faith. Previously, he struggled under the Law; by God's grace he realized and faithfully rested in God's promises and provisions.

So the answer would be FAITH made him different after conversion. That is the answer given throughout Hebrews Chapter 11.

(I think of Jacob wrestling with the angel, and finally submitting to the power of God. Genesis 32:24-32)


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## ColdSilverMoon (Sep 17, 2009)

TeachingTulip said:


> ColdSilverMoon said:
> 
> 
> > lynnie said:
> ...



Right. I understand and agree, but how did this manifest itself? Faith was the instrument by which the OT saints received Christ's righteousness (just as it is today), but practically speaking how was a saint outwardly different before and after he was given saving faith?


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## Prufrock (Sep 17, 2009)

Mason, perhaps an analogy would be helpful: how is a person who is brought up in an outwardly strictly moral and religious household today different before and after regeneration? Outwardly, you will still see mostly the same form of obedience.


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## TeachingTulip (Sep 17, 2009)

ColdSilverMoon said:


> TeachingTulip said:
> 
> 
> > ColdSilverMoon said:
> ...



Read through Hebrews 11, and you will see the O.T. saints obtained a good testimony from God and for God. 

Which means, they witnessed to the grace of God in their speech and in their actions, which were full of bravery in the face of enemies. 

Read about Abel comprehending the significance of a better (blood) worship of God; of Enoch escaping physical death; of Noah preaching righteousness and saving his family from the judgment of the flood; of Abraham leaving his homeland without knowing where God was going to lead him; of Sarah bearing a child at an advanced age; of all of them looking for a heavenly city built by God; of Moses identifying with the Hebrews and forsaking the riches of Egypt; of Joshua achieving military victory over Jericho; of the prophets who overcame and "turned to flight the armies of the aliens"; of faithful women who saw their dead children resurrected; of others who remained faithful through sufferings, torments, imprisonments; experiencing great material poverty and finding refuge only in "deserts and mountains; in dens and caves of the earth."

All these things were the fruits and evidence of possessing a genuine saving faith in God and the good testimony given to them by God, which was and will never be known or said by ungodly men . . .


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## Scott1 (Sep 18, 2009)

> *ColdSilverMoon*
> My question is more of the nature of conversion from keeping the Law without faith to keeping of the Law by faith. In other words, OT saints may have kept the Law just as well before their conversion as they did after it. So practically speaking, what changed in their hearts and minds as a result of saving faith? Was it simply their approach to the Law? Or was it a pre-Sermon on the Mount understanding of the moral aspect of the Law?
> 
> The heart of my question is: what was different about an OT saint before and after his conversion?



It might be helpful to understand that obedience, doing "good" before God requires:

1) right outward act
2) right inward motive (heart to obey God)

We often look at the "good" works of the unregenerate and say they are just as good as believers. Sometimes, it might even appear that an unbeliever is "better" than a professed believer. 

But from God's standpoint, "good" involves the inward too. A good outward act is a credit to His common grace- it benefits all, restrains evil, points to the need for Christ, etc. so it definitely has some value. God uses them, but they are not truly "good."

The reformers sometimes called the "good" works of unbelievers, "acts of civil virtue" to differentiate them from the works of believers that truly can be good, because God has enabled believers to do them with a right heart to please Him.

The Westminster Confession summarizes the doctrine of Scripture:


> Chapter X
> Of Effectual Calling
> 
> I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed time, effectually to call,[1] by His Word and Spirit,[2] out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ;[3] enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God,[4] *taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh;*[5] renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good,[6] and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ:[7] yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.[8]



Add to this that we understand no one (except Jesus) ever could even possibly keep the Law.

In the Old Testament, a believer had to keep all the law as a standard of righteousness- the civil law given Israel, the ceremonial law, and the moral law... all of it to meet God's perfect standard.

Scripture tells us observance of the (Old Testament) law was a school master to bring us to Christ. It was pointing to the coming redeemer, Messiah Jesus Christ in the Old Testament, and a believer then had to have faith looking toward that then to be saved.



> Galatians 3
> 
> 21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
> 
> ...



They could not perfectly obey, not even possible because of the effects of the Fall.

Knowing that the plan of redemption and the work of the Holy Spirit was not as explicit in the Old Testament, the answer to your question still seems to lie in this...

There is something different about an Old Testament believer obeying His God than an unbeliever outwardly obeying. Our Lord called the Pharisees and others on this very point many times.


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## Eoghan (Sep 18, 2009)

lynnie said:


> So to rephrase the question, were they born again of an imperishable seed like we are, and unable to therefore fall away to damnation?
> 
> Hebrews 11 seems clear.... to have faith in the promised messiah and to offer up blood sacrifices in faith that sins would be atoned for, required a regenerated, born again heart. It was granted to some by grace before the cross *as well as after*.
> 
> Solomon is a puzzle to me, ending up worshipping idols so badly. All that wisdom but was he regenerate?



I presume you do not infer saving faith apart from Christ, i.e. a residual remnant operating on Old Covenant rules?

Nope I am sure I am misunderstanding you


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## Peairtach (Sep 18, 2009)

ColdSilverMoon said:


> TeachingTulip said:
> 
> 
> > ColdSilverMoon said:
> ...



I think if you read carefully through e.g. Exodus-Deuteronomy, Judges, Proverbs, Psalms, and I Samuel-II Chronicles, to name a few, you'll find quite a range of moral behaviour. It's not as if the instant someone moved out of line he was stoned to death, even when the penal laws were working properly.

And when the nation drifted from the Lord, as it more often than not did, not only the moral law, but all the other laws as well could be neglected.

What was the difference between born-again Christians and other Christians when e.g. Scotland or the US was deemed to be largely Christian ?

What is the difference, between before and after his conversion, of the boy who is raised in a New Covenant family, believes all he is taught, doesn't rebel against the teaching of Scripture, and trusts in Christ at the age of 12 or 13. Some such can have problems with assurance.


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