# Anyone here read "Mother Kirk" by Wilson?



## 3John2 (Jan 9, 2007)

I'm currently in the process of reading this book. It was given to me by my pastor about a year or 2 ago. At the time I started & put it aside quickly. Last week I picked it up & I'm so blown away Has anyone else here read this book? It has been very challenging (in the Spiritual sense) & uplifting. I would highly recommend to all out there.


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## MrMerlin777 (Jan 9, 2007)

I've seen it. Haven't read it though.


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## Davidius (Jan 9, 2007)

I received it as an Xmas gift but haven't been able to start it yet. Looking forward to it, though!


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## Davidius (Jan 9, 2007)

Oops, nevermind. I thought you were talking about "Recovering Mother Kirk" by DG Hart. I don't actually have Wilson's book.


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## rmwilliamsjr (Jan 9, 2007)

i've read it entirely. Discussed some of the more troublesome issues with both my Pastor and in my church life group. I'm adding D.Wilson to my list of those writers i love to hate....*grin*
(G.North, B.Schwertley, R.Rushdoony)


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## toddpedlar (Jan 9, 2007)

rmwilliamsjr said:


> i've read it entirely. Discussed some of the more troublesome issues with both my Pastor and in my church life group. I'm adding D.Wilson to my list of those writers i love to hate....*grin*
> (G.North, B.Schwertley, R.Rushdoony)



What's troubling about it? Despite it being from Wilson, who has innumerable problems in other areas, I thought much of this book was VERY sound. 

Todd


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## rmwilliamsjr (Jan 9, 2007)

troubling:

pg 190 the pastor's kids
adult children who are not believers utterly disqualifies that man from being an elder.
if he is a pastor, this is grounds for removal.
---this is the particular issue i brought up to my Pastor.
plus issues of subscription.

pg 107, paedocommunion

pg 108 weekly communion

chapter 6, the Lord's day, strong Sabbatarianism

pg 129 worship music

pg 222 the parish ideal

those are just the big yellow _'ugh?'_ i wrote while reading it and quickly found now.


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## 3John2 (Jan 9, 2007)

I haven't gotten to ANY of those points yet. I'll just continue reading. so far I've thoroughly enjoyed it.


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## toddpedlar (Jan 9, 2007)

rmwilliamsjr said:


> troubling:
> 
> pg 190 the pastor's kids
> adult children who are not believers utterly disqualifies that man from being an elder.
> ...



Yes, this can be troubling, although it's not as though Wilson's the first to say something of this sort.



> plus issues of subscription.



What have you against subscription?



> pg 107, paedocommunion



Have to look that one up - don't recall it being there... but, knowing it's his position, I wouldn't let it ruin the book.



> pg 108 weekly communion
> 
> chapter 6, the Lord's day, strong Sabbatarianism



? What's wrong with these?



> pg 129 worship music





> pg 222 the parish ideal



Well, there was a time when...(namely when most of the Puritans
were pastoring). what do you have against the idea ?

I guess this shows why you hate it and I think it's a good book overall despite the things we all (probably) disagree with Wilson on theologically.

Todd


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jan 9, 2007)

What's wrong with weekly communion, a parish mentality (educating your children at the church and so forth), observing the Lord's Day (confessional), and following the Lord's command that the children of elders should be "believers"?


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## toddpedlar (Jan 9, 2007)

WrittenFromUtopia said:


> What's wrong with weekly communion, a parish mentality (educating your children at the church and so forth), observing the Lord's Day (confessional), and following the Lord's command that the children of elders should be "believers"?



Yeah, like Gabe said.


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## rmwilliamsjr (Jan 9, 2007)

What's wrong with weekly communion
--->if my elders have decided that it is Biblical to offer communion once per month. Then the statement that weekly communion is the only Scriptural command is wrong contradicts my church's stand and Wilson stays that they are deficient in their thinking to allow monthly communion. i think that the timing is adiaphoria and assent to the rule of my elders on the issue.

a parish mentality (educating your children at the church and so forth)
--->parish mentality is first that you are required to go to the nearest church, that is the essence of parish, not that you can attend any PCA in the city, but must attend the nearest. 
the nearest PCA to me is Spanish speaking, i do not believe that the parish mentality is appropriate nor useful in a modern large city.

observing the Lord's Day (confessional)
--->He basically says that both weak Sabbatarians and not-Sabbatarians are so deficient theologically to be unsaved, essentially making it a crucial salvation issue.
i believe this is both too strong and wrong. I think that Real Christians(tm) can be not or even anti-Sabbatarian. i personally think that the Sabbath is part of the ceremonial law and that is why we worship on Sunday not the Sabbath, it is far more than a simple day change, the whole content is changed. We rest first, and then work, the Jews worked and then rested. the whole metaphor is radically different since the Resurrection.

, and following the Lord's command that the children of elders should be "believers"?
-->in the PCA it is thought to refer to children in the household.
this is the fundamental answer i got from my Pastor.
As far as I know, no PCA Pastor is defrocked if his adult children are unbelievers.
Wilson makes this a crucial element for elders and basically says that if you do not practice this then your church is ungodly and too liberal to be really Christian. 
and that you will lose the culture wars because you don't practice Biblical discipline on the elders.

on subscription
--->the PCA has two centers of gravity on the issue, more strict and less strict. Wilson essentially says that the less strict is Biblically in error and will lead to liberalism. I assent to the wisdom of my denomination and think they made the right decision (or is it the left decision *grin*) and he is in essence saying throughout the book that the PCA is apostate, and only his Christ Church and associated churches are TR and Truely Christian. 
__________________


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Jan 9, 2007)

My advice is to simply toss Wilson's books into the nearest river, and then read: 

"The Practice of Confessional Subscription" Edited by David Hall
"An Ecclesiastical Republic" - Church Government in the Writings of George Gillespie by WDJ McKay
"Recovering Mother Kirk" by DG Hart
"With Reverence and Awe: Returning to the Basics of Reformed Worship"by D. G. Hart 

There are a host of better books on the church than following Wilson on anything.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Jan 9, 2007)

Jus Divinum is a good book on the Church as well.


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## rmwilliamsjr (Jan 9, 2007)

"The Practice of Confessional Subscription" Edited by David Hall
--->excellent book, anything by D.Hall is top notch.
Amazon.com: The Practice of Confessional Subscription: Books: David W. Hall
mine is the first review.

"An Ecclesiastical Republic" - Church Government in the Writings of George Gillespie by WDJ McKay
"Recovering Mother Kirk" by DG Hart
--->i'll get it on my amazon order list, thanks.

"With Reverence and Awe: Returning to the Basics of Reformed Worship"by D. G. Hart 
--->another excellent book. everything i've seen by Hart has been very good, even when i disagree he is interesting but most important well argued and evidenced..
Amazon.com: With Reverence and Awe: Returning to the Basics of Reformed Worship: Books: D. G. Hart,John R. Muether
likewise mine is the first review.

it would be nice to see more PB members add to the reviews at amazon for these books and authors. i get mail every week about my reviews there. i think it a very good idea. and deeply thank amazon for the opportunity to share my love of reading with so many people.


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## 3John2 (Jan 9, 2007)

Thanks for the feedback guys. Didn't mean to stir anything up. I'd like to read Hart's book after this one. Like I said so far I'm enjoying it & being blessed.


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## C. Matthew McMahon (Jan 9, 2007)

WrittenFromUtopia said:


> Jus Divinum is a good book on the Church as well.


 
Most definitely!


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