# Parable of the Sower denies perseverance of the saints!



## Pergamum (Dec 8, 2008)

Ok, now that I got your attention - I need some help:


I am flooded with busyness and an associate (translator) just emailed me tonight this question, for which I need to answer:




_Jesus characterized the results of preaching/hearing God’s Word in the Parable of the Sower as practically working out in 4 ways:

God’s Word is preached and those who hear it choose to: 

1- “not believe and be saved” –Lk. 8:12 NIV, 

2- “believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away” –Lk. 8:13 NIV, 

3- believe, but “they do not mature” –Lk. 8:14 NIV, & 

4- “retain it, and by persevering produce a crop” –Lk. 8:15 NIV



The 2nd example is a clear case of God saying that it is possible to believe and then fall away (lose salvation). I used this parable, because there is no question as to whether the person truly believed, because Jesus said they believed and He can judge that, and there is no question as to whether the person continues to believe because Jesus qualified the person’s belief as being “for a while” and then “they fall away”.

We know that Satan lost salvation, and we have the stories of many people who appear to have lost salvation. We hear of their faith and then of their rejection, and we are told in Scripture that “whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.” –Mark 3:29 or in the OT “anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or aliens, blasphemes the LORD, and that person must be cut off from his people. Because he has despised the LORD’s word and broken His commands, that person must surely be cut off; his guilt remains on him.” –Numbers 5:30-31

_


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## Pergamum (Dec 8, 2008)

Give me some more to chew on Josh.

-----Added 12/8/2008 at 10:30:25 EST-----

I know that, but I need to frame a response for him (who doesn't know that), and my powers of thought tonight are hampered.


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## turmeric (Dec 8, 2008)

Satan didn't "lose salvation" any more than Adam did, you only need salvation after you are damnable; Satan lost innocence. MHO


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## TsonMariytho (Dec 8, 2008)

Joshua said:


> There's not much on which to chew, when one realizes that God does not fail in what He seeks to achieve. This parable is not told in a vacuum:
> [KJV]Luke 8:12-13[/KJV]12Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. ​14And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. ​15But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.​The emphasis is on the people in verse 15 is in contradistinction to all the previously mentioned people, i.e. there is only one true form of belief ... and it's from those who _keep_ the word with an "honest and good heart." Now, we know from all other passages of Scripture that men's hearts are not "honest and good." Hence, we can only determine that the last group of people about whom Jesus spoke were those whose hearts the Lord regenerates. This is why they keep the word and "bring forth fruit with patience" and persevere. Take that in comparison to all the other groups, and there's no "honest and good heart" mentioned, etc.They weren't regenerate with _saving_ faith. They may have had the dead "faith" of which James speaks, or the faith of Simon the Sorcerer, but no saving faith. Thus, it is no problem that such a faith doesn't persevere.




Jesus knew the difference:

Joh 2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs that he was doing. 
Joh 2:24 But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people 
Joh 2:25 and needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man.​


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## R. Scott Clark (Dec 8, 2008)

This is why Reformed theology distinguishes between the eternal, immutable, decree and the administration of grace in the kingdom and, consequently, why we teach its corollary, the distinction between the two ways of being in the one covenant of grace.



You can read more about this distinction in this booklet.

You can also read more about it in vol 3 of the Confessional Presbyterian.

It's also helpful to recognize that we distinguish between different types of faith. True faith has three aspects: knowledge, assent, and (heartfelt) trust. It's possible to have knowledge and not have true faith. It's possible to have assent and not have true faith. The latter entails "resting and receiving" or "a certain knowledge and a hearty trust" in Christ and in his promises and grace. Not everyone in the administration of the covenant of grace, i.e. in the visible church, has true faith. Some have only "historical" faith or knowledge of the facts of the faith. 

In the same way not all repentance is genuine repentance. Some are sorry for the consequences to themselves of their sin. They are not genuinely sorry for offending God and his holy law. They don't hate their sins and themselves as sinners and thus turn away from it and desire to die to sin and to live to Christ. 

Because there are those who have only an external relation to Christ, his grace, and the church, they may fall away. They may "believe" for a time (i.e. have only one or two elements of true faith) or they may have a form of repentance without having true faith and repentance and without being internally and actually united to Christ by the Spirit.

The basic distinction, however, is between the decree and the administration. They must never be confused and the failure to maintain that distinction is behind a lot of mischief in modern theology.


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## TimV (Dec 8, 2008)

John Gill is someone whom many Baptists respect, even though he was Calvinistic, and he pointed out that in vs. 13 those people received the good news with joy of heart (as the Ethiopian version has it) rather than joy in the heart. Also, they had no root, and we know from other Scripture, as in Romans that without being grafted into Christ, and partake of his root, the plant will die.

So true! A few months ago I was able to get several cuttings of _Aztekium hintonii_, a very rare cactus that can't root on it's own. So I grafted them on to some other cactus with roots, and now I have several that are thriving in my collection. They'd be dead otherwise. You'll find the Baptist commentator John Gill a major league help to you with these verses. Perhaps someone knows of a place you can find him online.


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## Jimmy the Greek (Dec 8, 2008)

There is nothing more haunting than the words of our Lord in Matthew 7:22-23,



> Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles? And then I will declare to them, I never knew you. Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.



I do not see these as conniving hypocrites trying to hoodwink their way into the Kingdom. These are people who actually think they are saved -- i.e. the third example in the Parable of the soils. 

They’ve attended church religiously, they’ve been baptized, they’ve even performed wondrous things in the name of the Lord. They have professed faith in Jesus Christ. Yet He never knew them. They have suffered from self delusion and a false assurance. It is all the more tragic to notice the word “many.” On the last day “many” who think all is well with their soul will find that they never knew Him either; deep down, I think they know it now.

As an old spiritual aptly put it: “Everybody talkin’ bout heaven ain’t goin’ there.” (John MacArthur mentions this spiritual in his book _Saved Without a Doubt_, p.8)


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## larryjf (Dec 8, 2008)

I would say that the vine and branches of John 15 also speaks to this kind of thing.

We have folks who mentally ascent to the truths of the Gospel, and join themselves to the Church and its ordinances. But they don't have the life of Christ in them and animating them.


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## Jimmy the Greek (Dec 8, 2008)

TimV said:


> . . . You'll find the Baptist commentator John Gill a major league help to you with these verses. Perhaps someone knows of a place you can find him online.



Gill's Commentary may be found online here along with Matthew Henry and Jamieson-Faucett-Brown:
Classic Bible Commentaries


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## Wannabee (Dec 8, 2008)

Maybe this will help Pergy.


> 8:11 ...The seed is the word of God. In Mark the seed is “the word,” which Luke qualified with “of God” (cf. Luke 5:1; 8:21), because this expression had not yet been used absolutely, i.e., without qualification. (Contrast Mark 1:45; 2:2.) In so doing Luke emphasized that the gospel message the disciples proclaimed and which he was writing has God as its source, not human beings (cf. 1 Thess 2:13). Later “the word” will be used without qualification throughout Acts (cf. 4:4; 6:4; 8:4; 10:36). Luke did not mention the sower in the interpretation. Because the seed that was sown was God’s word, Luke probably understood the sower as representing every preacher of God’s word. See comments on 8:5.
> 8:12 Then the devil comes. Luke substituted the Greek name translated “devil” for the Semitic “Satan” found in Mark 4:15. In the interpretation the birds’ actions represent the devil’s removal of the word of God.
> And takes away the word from their hearts. The devil does this “so that they may not believe and be saved.” For Luke “faith” was clearly the means by which salvation comes to the individual. 194 For “heart” see comments on 1:51 and 6:45.
> So that they may not believe and be saved. Luke associated this with the work of the devil. In Mark 4:12 the inability to believe is more directly associated with Jesus’ teaching in parables.
> ...


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## Poimen (Dec 8, 2008)

The text simply does not say that those who fell away had salvation. I don't think much more than that needs to be said unless it can be proven otherwise.

On another tack, it is interesting to note that this parable is used in the Canons of Dordrecht to illustrate the qualitative _difference_ between those who are saved and those who are not. 

*5th Head of Doctrine, RE, Paragraph 7*



> The true doctrine having been explained, the Synod rejects the errors of those:
> 
> Who teach: That the faith of those who believe for a time does not differ from justifying and saving faith except only in duration.
> 
> For Christ Himself, in Matt. 13:20, Luke 8:13, and in other places, evidently notes, besides this duration, a threefold difference between those who believe only for a time and true believers, when He declares that the former receive the seed in stony ground, but the latter in the good ground or heart; that the former are without root, but the latter have a firm root; that the former are without fruit, but that the latter bring forth their fruit in various measure, with constancy and steadfastness.


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## TheFleshProfitethNothing (Dec 8, 2008)

The parable simply shows that there can be an interest, even of the natrual man, in the things of God, BUT, only so far as it benefits him...we see many instances of those who would not follow Jesus for one reason or another, THOUGH they could see, from a natural stand point, that He was indeed of GOD...

Yet, in the final analysis, when they see He made claims of BEING God, or even refering to such, these people couldn't bear it...hmm...I wonder why?

Also, there were those who would not give up their natural loves...as the rich young ruler...all these things I have kept from my youth he said, and Christ hit him with the last blow...coveteousnes, which is idolatry. Self-righteousness (godlikeness, will worship) ends badly, every time.

I guess, this is why Christ mentions that it is a MUCH greater blessing to not have seen and yet believe. It's a natural belief in every instance that does not endure...it is that spiritual renewal that is of import, and those they are regenerated, will and do produce fruit manifold. Eph. 2 tells us we are elected UNTO good works that God prepared BEFORE hand that we should walk in them. This is a sure "sign" that you are persevering.

And, there is mention of decieving the very elect, IF it were POSSIBLE...(it ain't).


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## TsonMariytho (Dec 8, 2008)

TheFleshProfitethNothing said:


> I guess, this is why Christ mentions that it is a MUCH greater blessing to not have seen and yet believe.



Very good point about assurance from mere natural sense.

Joh 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who *have not seen and yet have believed*."

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things *not seen*.​


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