# Dispensational anti-trinitarianism



## Curt (Nov 18, 2008)

[Moderators please fee free to assign this to the most appropriate forum].

I have never been a dispensationalist. Of course, I have been around many of them. They can't be avoided. I am, however, acutely aware of the damage they have done to the church.

I wondering if anyone out there is aware of any particular branch of dispensationalism is also rabidly anti-trinitarian.


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## Wannabee (Nov 18, 2008)

Sigh

Many Pentacostals are both - because they are basically anti-exegesis and anti-systematic. The ones I've interacted with seem to have no cohesive thought process, but randomly apply verses to make their points.

I, for one, can be avoided though...


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## Iakobos_1071 (Dec 24, 2008)

Joe is correct.. I was raised Pentecostal (before I was reformed!) They do believe in the trinity, but for some reason their understanding of it is flawed. They in their ignorance then become anti-trinity. They call themselves "Oneness" instead of "Trinitarian". Since they do not understand the trinity they say that there "is only one God .. not Three". They think that trinitarians are worshipping 3 different Gods. I remember hearing sermon after sermon about the "Oneness of the Godhead" like it was a matter of salvation to believe oneness. But if they understood exegesis they would understand that their "Oneness" God has three personalities.. it is all really just semantics. But you ask any of them.. they are anti-trinity.

My mother is still Pentecostal and I deal with this topic with her quite a bit, as well as the tongues issue. She would rather follow a religion started in 1907 than read her Bible. Our arguments are quite redundant.


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## LawrenceU (Dec 24, 2008)

RE: Pentecostals. There differences in their views. The United Pentecostal Church is not trinitarian. The Assembly of God and Church of God (Cleveland) are both trinitarian.


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## Notthemama1984 (Dec 24, 2008)

I agree on the Pentecostals.


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## LadyFlynt (Dec 24, 2008)

Yep, the UPC...Oneness Pentacostals. Also, there are (believe it or not) "Twoness" Pentacostals (don't ask me to try to explain that one!).


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## LawrenceU (Dec 24, 2008)

Oh, there are a multitude of splinter groups in the Pentecostal movement. Have served among them I saw all sorts of aberrant beliefs regarding the Godhead.


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## Iakobos_1071 (Dec 24, 2008)

LawrenceU said:


> RE: Pentecostals. There differences in their views. The United Pentecostal Church is not trinitarian. The Assembly of God and Church of God (Cleveland) are both trinitarian.



You are correct.. UPC, UPCI = Oneness, then there are some even more radical branches that are VERY anti-Trinity such as The "Apostolic Pentecostals". I have been to some of their churches where they think it is a sin to not wear a suit, wear red ties, women wearing pants ANYTIME! or wearing makeup or cutting their hair, drive anything but white cars, own TV's etc.


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## TsonMariytho (Dec 24, 2008)

jymevans said:


> LawrenceU said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Pentecostals. There differences in their views. The United Pentecostal Church is not trinitarian. The Assembly of God and Church of God (Cleveland) are both trinitarian.
> ...



I think I've interacted with one of those on another theology forum. I was very quickly branded a "devil". Among my many other sins was referring to the Bible as "the Bible". It apparently is only to be referred to as "the Holy Scriptures". :^)

If I recall correctly, this individual also claimed canon status for the Apocrypha.


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## LadyFlynt (Dec 24, 2008)

jymevans said:


> LawrenceU said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Pentecostals. There differences in their views. The United Pentecostal Church is not trinitarian. The Assembly of God and Church of God (Cleveland) are both trinitarian.
> ...



And yet the women will spend HOURS curling and spraying their hair into elaborate updos (yep...have had several Oneness friends).


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## LawrenceU (Dec 24, 2008)

I've never heard a Pentecostal who thought the Apocrypha was canonical. Most of them would think it is some sort of candy bar. Even many pastors I know/knew wouldn't know what the Apocrypha is. Don't even bring up the Pseudopigraphia.


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## TsonMariytho (Dec 24, 2008)

LawrenceU said:


> I've never heard a Pentecostal who thought the Apocrypha was canonical. Most of them would think it is some sort of candy bar. Even many pastors I know/knew wouldn't know what the Apocrypha is. Don't even bring up the Pseudopigraphia.



Hmmm. I hear what you're saying, but this guy was very different from most charismatics I've known. He was part of a very aggressive, very proselytizing Apostolic Oneness church. He was obviously highly intelligent, knowledgeable of the Bible (heh, I mean the Holy Scriptures), and very much out to see whom he could snag into his denomination, under the care of his church's own personal apostle.


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## Pergamum (Dec 24, 2008)

My own local enemy here, the false teacher, seems to be a One-ness Pentecostal.


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## LadyFlynt (Dec 24, 2008)

Pergamum said:


> My own local enemy here, the false teacher, seems to be a One-ness Pentecostal.


If I hear sounds from the local city churches that sound like they are speaking in tongues against a "calvinist devil", I'll be praising God for you Pergy


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## Pergamum (Dec 24, 2008)

I wish I had the giftof tongues right now! 

I just learned the wider language, the local dialect and now I am learning the tribal tongue! ENOUGH ALREADY! 

Just why aren't there more Penny-cossal translators if the Spriit is so powerful in them!


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## Contra_Mundum (Dec 24, 2008)

It might help us all to remember that different "groups" or "labels" have their aberrant elements.

I'm just reflecting on the title to the thread. Joe responded patiently, being of a dispensational bent himself, Master's Seminary variety.

Just remember that the "anti-trinitarian" nature of someone's heretical theology is no more a natural connection to his dispensationalism (whatever you think of that), than heretical "hymenean" views (hyper-preterist, see 2Tim.2:17-18) are a natural expression of being Reformed.


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## turmeric (Dec 24, 2008)

For the record: the Foursquare churches are trinitarian also. I've never heard of ant-trinitarian Dispensationalists, though I imagine the Oneness people might have a vaguely dispie eschatology. Actually, the Third Wavers seem to be post-mil - not sure if they're trinitarian. WordFaith people have a lot of heresy inherent to their system - their Christology is a mess!


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## Pilgrim (Dec 24, 2008)

jymevans said:


> LawrenceU said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Pentecostals. There differences in their views. The United Pentecostal Church is not trinitarian. The Assembly of God and Church of God (Cleveland) are both trinitarian.
> ...



"Apostolics" in my experience are basically hard line old school Oneness Pentecostals. The largest "church" of any kind in my hometown is Oneness, and there is a UPC campground in the area that has a big meeting every summer. The standards you describe WRT dress, etc. probably would have been the norm among UPC people years ago and are still largely the norm today among those in more rural areas. 25-30 years ago they weren't supposed to have televisions, etc. Even today typically they oppose women wearing pants, but some appear to have relaxed the standards a little when it comes to makeup.

-----Added 12/24/2008 at 01:07:12 EST-----



Contra_Mundum said:


> It might help us all to remember that different "groups" or "labels" have their aberrant elements.
> 
> I'm just reflecting on the title to the thread. Joe responded patiently, being of a dispensational bent himself, Master's Seminary variety.
> 
> Just remember that the "anti-trinitarian" nature of someone's heretical theology is no more a natural connection to his dispensationalism (whatever you think of that), than heretical "hymenean" views (hyper-preterist, see 2Tim.2:17-18) are a natural expression of being Reformed.



The same goes for the term Pentecostal, for that matter. In my area Pentecostal is generally understood to mean UPC, the lifestyle and dress regulations mentioned earlier, etc. In other areas when someone says Pentecostal one is more likely to think Assembly of God, Church of God and other churches that are orthodox on the Trinity. One Presbyterian pastor in my home town told me he had no familiarity with Oneness Pentecostals until he moved into the state to take up a pastorate.

-----Added 12/24/2008 at 01:09:52 EST-----



turmeric said:


> For the record: the Foursquare churches are trinitarian also. I've never heard of ant-trinitarian Dispensationalists, though I imagine the Oneness people might have a vaguely dispie eschatology. Actually, the Third Wavers seem to be post-mil - not sure if they're trinitarian. WordFaith people have a lot of heresy inherent to their system - their Christology is a mess!



This is a good point also. Most pentecostals will generally have a vaguely Dispensational tendency in that they believe in the pre trib rapture. But dispensationalism as a system (think DTS, TMS, etc.) tends to be the most cessationist theology that there is, arguably even more so than the confessional Reformed.

Some Third Wavers like Grudem are premil, but it is post trib premil influenced by George Ladd. Ladd was a big influence on John Wimber too. Others like Sam Storms are amil. There are probably some postmils too as you mention.


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## puritan lad (Feb 12, 2009)

The Assemblies of God is Trinitarian, though they try to explain it using analogies like "the three parts of an egg" or "the three phases of water".

Been there, done that.


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