# The Best Reformed Church



## TKarrer (Dec 12, 2009)

I am presently trying to weigh out all the differences- pros and cons- of each of the Reformed denominations and churches. I may be moving, and would rather not visit tens of churches. If you could sum up the top three things about the church and/or denomination you're apart of, what would they be? I would also enjoy knowing this for future reference. Thanks.

(Please no comparisons, debating, or comments about other churches)


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## Herald (Dec 12, 2009)

Thomas,

You ask a question that has a definite answer. There is no "best" Reformed denomination. Much of where you decide to worship and serve has to do with your theological convictions and the availability of churches in your area. So, I ask you a question; do you know what you believe doctrinally? It would make sense that you attend a church in which you find yourself in general agreement doctrinally. One of the most obvious doctrinal issues is baptism; credo vs. paedo. But that isn't the only issue worth considering. Do you have a strong conviction on church government? How about your view on the solemness of the Lord's Day? EP or non-EP? 

All of the above are important considerations, but they do not make a "best church." Every church is subject to mixture and error (1689 LBC 26.3), so finding the best one is really a subjective issue. You need to find a church that holds to the majority of what you believe in; realizing that there may be peripheral issues that you disagree with but are able to tolerate. 

So, I come back to my earlier question; do you know what you believe doctrinally?


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## Edward (Dec 12, 2009)

It depends on where you are going. If you are moving to Jackson, MS, I could recommend at least a half dozen fine PCA churches. If you are moving to certiain other areas, I'd recommend that you avoid the presbytery completely. (Be particularly careful where counties, and even fairly small towns, are split between presbyteries.) And in most areas, you need to look at individual congregations, and not assume what you may find just because of the denominational name on the sign. 

I'd recommend that whatever you do, you start with the congregation's web page. (And if they don't have a web presence, you should assume tha they aren't really interested with interaction with outsiders, and scratch them from the list.)


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## Andres (Dec 12, 2009)

if you move to Abilene,TX, then I think you should go *here*. Other than that, I don't have much knowledge on which specific church is best.


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## Jack K (Dec 12, 2009)

I'm sorry to take you off track, but I must concur that there's no best denomination among those loved by us PBers. There are a few doctrinal issues to consider, but all are led by godly men who take the Bible seriously, cherish the doctrines of grace and give up their lives for God's Kingdom. The real difference comes in individual churches within these denominations.

You have to do the hard work of checking out churches to see if they live out what the denomination is all about. I'd particularly try to learn if the elders both guard the truth AND care enough about you to shepherd you wisely and with grace. Are they passionate about right doctrine AND also passionate about being personally transformed by that doctrine? Are they wise about the Scriptures AND also demonstrating the Goldly wisdom of repentance, humility and eager generosity?

Find a faithfully Reformed congregation like that and you've got a keeper no matter what letters of the alphabet they put after their name.


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## Wayne (Dec 12, 2009)

When the time comes that you can tell us where you will be moving to, I'm sure we can quickly compile a list of churches.


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## N. Eshelman (Dec 12, 2009)

I love both the Continental and the Presbyterian tradition; but one thing that I appreciate about my own denomination (Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America [RPCNA]) is its age. We are in our third century in North America, and we remain confessional with a high view of Scripture. 

I also appreciate the fact that we still follow the old paths of Presbyterian worship. Our worship is not a distinctive; because there was a time when UPs, APs, ARPs, RPs, and Ps all worshipped the same way. So it is not distinct; but we have maintained. 

I also appreciate the fact that the RP Church has always been involved in social issues. Many people think that conservatives are not involved in social issues- but we are. Many secular historians note that we were the first denomination that came out against race-based slavery. 

1. Confessional
2. Old school worship
3. Involved with social issues

All of that sprinkled with many many years of proclaiming Christ.


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## PointingToChrist (Dec 12, 2009)

Edward said:


> I'd recommend that whatever you do, you start with the congregation's web page. (And if they don't have a web presence, you should assume tha they aren't really interested with interaction with outsiders, and scratch them from the list.)



Our PCA really needs to revamp the webpage. Poor layout, repeating logo.

Hopefully not a reflection on our denomination.

Mitch


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## Wayne (Dec 12, 2009)

nleshelman said:


> Our worship is not a distinctive; because there was a time when UPs, APs, ARPs, RPs, and Ps all worshipped the same way. So it is not distinct; but we have maintained.



Interesting point. I hadn't looked at it that way before. Thank you. 



> Many secular historians note that we were the first denomination that came out against race-based slavery.



Alexander McLeod took his stand against slavery in 1800. The denomination agreed with him, and that conviction has rippled down through three centuries. The PCA inherits part of that tradition with the reception of the RPCES in 1982.

-----Added 12/12/2009 at 12:56:59 EST-----



PointingToChrist said:


> Our PCA really needs to revamp the webpage. Poor layout, repeating logo.



That has been recognized for some time. Money, personnel and time are just stretched too thin, especially this last year. The Stated Clerk's Office is currently facing a huge shortfall in its budget. Please pray and encourage those who can to give.


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## PointingToChrist (Dec 12, 2009)

Wayne said:


> nleshelman said:
> 
> 
> > Our worship is not a distinctive; because there was a time when UPs, APs, ARPs, RPs, and Ps all worshipped the same way. So it is not distinct; but we have maintained.
> ...



I will pray.

Do you think there are those out there (interns, volunteers) who would be willing to create a new layout?

Mitch


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## jogri17 (Dec 12, 2009)

Église Réformée du Québec: Reformed Church of Québec


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## TKarrer (Dec 12, 2009)

Sorry, my thread title was misleading.

I fully understand that there are no perfect churches. Thats not what I am after. And I do realize that where I stand on baptism and church government are going to weigh heavy. Im still interested in hearing what you all might say are the top three reasons you chose the church youre at (knowing many people have decidely chosen one reformed church over another); of course, provided the main reason isnt simply location.


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## Wayne (Dec 12, 2009)

Mitch:

There could be, but as the saying goes, "volunteers take time." There are other factors, people, etc. 

I'd go nudging around where I don't belong to see what might be done, but I've got enough to do what with needing a major revamp on the PCA Historical Center's site. Might get started with that later this month.


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## TKarrer (Dec 12, 2009)

nleshelman said:


> I love both the Continental and the Presbyterian tradition; but one thing that I appreciate about my own denomination (Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America [RPCNA]) is its age. We are in our third century in North America, and we remain confessional with a high view of Scripture.
> 
> I also appreciate the fact that we still follow the old paths of Presbyterian worship. Our worship is not a distinctive; because there was a time when UPs, APs, ARPs, RPs, and Ps all worshipped the same way. So it is not distinct; but we have maintained.
> 
> ...



Thanks. Knowing your denomination's involvement in various social issues is a perfect example of something I didnt know, and of what I was looking for.


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## Edward (Dec 12, 2009)

PointingToChrist said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> > I'd recommend that whatever you do, you start with the congregation's web page. (And if they don't have a web presence, you should assume tha they aren't really interested with interaction with outsiders, and scratch them from the list.)
> ...



I disagree. I can go to whatever I need there. If they pretty it up and move things around, it will slow me down when I get there. 

I favor functionality over glitz on a web page.

I do, however, wish that they had a search by Presbytery on their church finder page.


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## TKarrer (Dec 12, 2009)

Herald said:


> Thomas,
> 
> You ask a question that has a definite answer. There is no "best" Reformed denomination. Much of where you decide to worship and serve has to do with your theological convictions and the availability of churches in your area. So, I ask you a question; do you know what you believe doctrinally? It would make sense that you attend a church in which you find yourself in general agreement doctrinally. One of the most obvious doctrinal issues is baptism; credo vs. paedo. But that isn't the only issue worth considering. Do you have a strong conviction on church government? How about your view on the solemness of the Lord's Day? EP or non-EP?
> 
> ...



Thanks. I shouldve been more clear in my title. I have been wrestling with the doctrine of baptism for years now; and am still not positive one way or the other. Same with church government (although I am convinced a church must be led by a plurality of elders- but where the congregations voice comes in I am still not sure). I know this crazy, but I probably wont pick a church using either of those doctrines as criteria. It may not even be wise. But after years of study and prayer, I still find myself able to argue for more than one side, and yet not certain of any. 

I am presently desirous of finding out other sorts of distinctives. For instance: the priority and involvement of missions; the dogmas of how the church service is ran; how a church or denomination relates and works with other Reformed churches; whether the church is more family-integrated or into youth groups, etc.; what type of approaching to preaching and teaching is taken; what resources are prevalent; what the church's involvement in society in general is; what the vision of the church is; etc. etc.

As for some other doctrinal distinctives, I do have things I hold to dogmatically, but I dont know what several Reformed churches would think on these matters. For instance, do all Reformed denominations hold to a Sabbatarian view of the Sabbath? Admittedly, I dont know what EP stands for. 

Thanks again for the comments and help.


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## jambo (Dec 12, 2009)

If I arrived in a new city and knew nothing about the various churches I would ask myself the following of each church

1. Is it theologically sound?
2. Do you agree with its ecclesiology?
3. Is it a warm hearted welcoming church or a dry cold lifeless church?
4. Can you serve it?
5. Will you, your wife and children be edified, nourished, built up, encouraged etc

There are other considerations but those are the main questi0ons I would be asking.


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## Berean (Dec 12, 2009)

Joshua said:


> I think there's some denomination headed up by Ruben and Heidi's Dog named Zack that seems to be the best... or proclaims to be, anyway. Its letters are P.U.R.E. but I can't remember what it stands for.



Zack Zartman, leader of the Zartmanites?


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## py3ak (Dec 12, 2009)

Presbyterian Uber-Reformed Evangelicals. It's global! You can read about it here.
Strugr: Wanted: Ruling Elder

I have to warn you, though, Zack is a little unstable and I personally would never worship with him.


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## reformedminister (Dec 12, 2009)

Don't overlook a CP (Cumberland Presbyterian) church. Although confessionally we claim to be only "moderately calvinistic", some of the ministers, like myself, do believe in the doctrines of grace. Like has been mentioned earlier, it all depends on the individual church. One of the reasons I ended up in the CP is because their is almost no "reformed witness" in my area. We attended a URCNA church for a while, but didn't like it. It is no longer in existence.


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## DMcFadden (Dec 12, 2009)

Thomas, how you frame the question will often determine (to a large extent) what answer you receive.

Comparing denominations may not be fruitless, but it is of markedly less utility than you might think. Most denominations (at least those with more than a couple of dozen congregations) have more diversity within themselves than they do between themselves if you look only at the doctrine and polity.

You may, for example, have strong convictions regarding creation. Within a single denomination (e.g., OP), you will find pastors who teach rather differently on that topic. So, even if the denominational reputation inclines you in one direction, a particular congregational emphasis may turn you off. We have had debates on the PB about the role of women in the ministry of the church. Those in NY with Keller may have a VERY different perspective on that than some other PCA congregations. The so-called Klinean controversy will often differentiate churches within a single Reformed denomination.

Some questions about denomination wide stands (ep vs. non-ep) can assist you in the winnowing process. However, there is NO way to determine if a church is a "fit" without visiting it. Sorry. I guess you are just stuck checking out their web sites of various congregations and making your own determinations after a visit.


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## LawrenceU (Dec 12, 2009)

py3ak said:


> Presbyterian Uber-Reformed Evangelicals. It's global! You can read about it here.
> Strugr: Wanted: Ruling Elder
> 
> I have to warn you, though, Zack is a little unstable and I personally would never worship with him.



That has to be one of the funniest things I have read in a long time.


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## py3ak (Dec 12, 2009)

There's a reason my wife is the clown queen of crime.


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## Scott1 (Dec 12, 2009)

> *TKarrer*
> I am presently desirous of finding out other sorts of distinctives. For instance: the priority and involvement of missions; the dogmas of how the church service is ran; how a church or denomination relates and works with other Reformed churches; whether the church is more family-integrated or into youth groups, etc.; what type of approaching to preaching and teaching is taken; what resources are prevalent; what the church's involvement in society in general is; what the vision of the church is; etc. etc.



Many of these will be the peculiarities of the particular church (in presbyterian lingo that means an individual congregation). The only way to determine them will be to evaluate the individual congregation.

But, you know this, you must settle your convictions about baptism. You need to be at least trending one direction or the other, based on your understanding of Scripture.

I'm not trying to discourage you from any biblical, reformed denomination, but some require confessional subscription for membership and that will include baptism doctrine. And even for the several that do not require this, you are going to become out of place over time if you are not at least moving toward their understanding of covenant community.

Another first question to ask, would be, "Where can I glorify God the most?" You may be at a season where you need a focus on discipleship or doctrine on service or all three.

It sounds like you are trending toward presbyterian government. You will even find some non-presbyterian denominations that have similar church government. But study this out biblically, ask God to give you a heart to serve and grow in an imperfect place, His church.


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## Reformed Thomist (Dec 12, 2009)

The best Reformed church for you just may be part of a denomination that doesn't have a reputation for Reformed orthodoxy (or Christian orthodoxy, generally; I'm thinking of certain very strong, Reformed congregations in mainline-liberal denoms like the Episcopal Church U.S., or more conservative mainstream denoms like the SBC). Likewise, there are local churches of generally very good Reformed denominations which you probably would do well to avoid (certain PCA congregations).


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## TKarrer (Dec 12, 2009)

Are there any sites that list the various Reformed denominations/groups of churches, and their websites?


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## Reformed Thomist (Dec 12, 2009)

TKarrer said:


> Are there any sites that list the various Reformed denominations/groups of churches, and their websites?



I've found this to be helpful...

Presbyterian and Reformed Churches


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## Scott1 (Dec 12, 2009)

North American Presbyterian and Reformed Council, member denominations (links to each web site):

Member churches

These are all generally, biblical Presbyterian and reformed denominations.


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## A.J. (Dec 12, 2009)

Praying that you may find a good church. 

Btw, EP = Exclusive Psalmody. 

Blessings,


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## kvanlaan (Dec 12, 2009)

We love being part of the URC, but all of them in Washington state are at least two (and some four) hours away from you. I've no doubt that it's worth the drive, but that's a bit of a commute...


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## TKarrer (Dec 13, 2009)

Are their any board members here from the CREC? I know the theological issues at hand presently, but I have also been hearing some good things about a CREC church just over an hour from me (close enough to move and yet still remain within driving distance of my immediate family here). This specific church holds to an orthodox view of justification- Ive found out after researching it, and asking them for a definition of terms.


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## Edward (Dec 13, 2009)

TKarrer said:


> Are their any board members here from the CREC? I know the theological issues at hand presently, but I have also been hearing some good things about a CREC church just over an hour from me (close enough to move and yet still remain within driving distance of my immediate family here). This specific church holds to an orthodox view of justification- Ive found out after researching it, and asking them for a definition of terms.



Run the other direction.


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