# Exorcism . . .



## WrittenFromUtopia

What's the deal?


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## Bladestunner316

exorcism is an ritual 

what Jesus did and the Apostles did was through godly authority heaven sent.

BTW, was their any record of demons being released in the OT like in the NT?

blade


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## Bladestunner316

lol sorry...............


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## SRoper

Hasn't everyone in this tread asked a question?


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## Arch2k

Do you think if we ask enough questions, Josh will break the conversation off into a new thread?


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## Arch2k

You're a hoot Josh.


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## turmeric

Who's getting exorcised?


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## LadyFlynt

By that last post of his, is it Josh?


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## Augusta

I want to know the answer too. The original questions before a certain mod hijacked the thread.


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## turmeric

Or maybe he...possessed it?


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## Bladestunner316

I get chided for asking a related question and the MOD goes and hijacks the thread


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## Scott

Exorcism has a long history in the church. Ramsay MacMullen's Christianizing the Roman Empire (New Haven and London: Yale University Press, 1984) indicates that prior to Constantine's conversion, records indicate that one of the greatest reasons for conversion was the casting out of demons. In an apologetic work Tertullian, for example, challenges anyone to bring a demon-possessed person to a Christian official. The Christian official (bishop or womever) could cast out the demon to prove his authority and the reality of Christ. Tertullian noted that it may be hard to find a demon-possessed person though, as so many had been cast out. Athanasius has many writings noting that as the kingdom spreads, demons are cast out and magic ceases. Anyway, very common. I am reading through Bede's Ecclesiastical History of the English People (Bede was 8th century) and he catalogues simialr events, among other supernatural events in the life of the Church of England.

Scott


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## larryjf

An interesting article on this site about demon posession and exorcism...
http://www.rsglh.org/demon_possession.htm

Some exeprts...



> If God is pleased to deliver a non-Christian from demon possession, He does it not through exorcism, but through the ministry of the gospel and prayer.





> The first thing we ought to emphasize is that the concept and practice of exorcism is fraught with dangers. Even the heathen go through magic rites to cast out evil spirits. Most of the time this is accompanied with inflicting pain on the possessed. We must have none of the chanting and magical blood which marks the abuse of this activity by many Charismatics. As in most of their "worship," they grieve the Holy Spirit. It is better that we not use the term exorcism, because of the abuse that is associated with that practice.





> It seems to me we learn this, that there was no special "gift" given to some person to cast out demons. Rather, the deliverance from demon possession is connected with the preaching of the gospel. The word of the gospel and the power of prayer is that which God uses to deliver from demons. The ministry of the Word is that which delivers one from demons (Col. 1:13). The power of the Word preached is that of continual prayer, even as Jesus told His disciples that certain demons can be cast out only with much prayer and fasting (Matt. 17:21). The prayerful preaching of the Word of God is the vehicle for the deliverance from demon possession.





> The preaching of the gospel includes the authority of Christ to cast out demons in the name of the living Lord. That preaching is the word of the exalted One, who has defeated Satan, who also, in the bringing of the gospel to the heathen, demonstrates His great power over all evil forces by delivering captives of Satan through the word and prayer of the missionaries. When missionaries stand in the presence of one who is possessed, they must bring the good news of the gospel to him or her, declaring that in Christ there is deliverance. They must call such a one to repentance of sin and to fall before the cross of Jesus in whom alone is life everlasting. Such a one must be called to embrace Christ and forsake all evil. He must turn to God in humble confession of sin and seek deliverance.


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## jaybird0827

Please re-read Larry's post above, and Trevor's as well. God commands all who hear the gospel to repent.



> For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
> 
> For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
> 
> He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
> 
> -- John 3:16-18
> 
> He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
> 
> -- John 3:36
> 
> Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
> 
> And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but *now commandeth all men every where to repent*:
> 
> Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
> 
> -- Acts 17:29-31



Your friends need to be brought under the faithful preaching of the gospel. They do not need to be "exorcised".

[Edited on 10-9-2006 by jaybird0827]


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## turmeric

Having been in what can only be characterized as a pagan worldview just before I was converted, I expected all kinds of craziness to ensue when I got saved - however, nothing of the kind happened. The Holy Spirit is God Almighty and can drive out anything. I didn't even notice it, it was just gone.

c, one thing to remember about some of these folks is that they may be very damaged psychologically and may manifest "psychosomatic" symptoms, and be very suggestible. I would just give them the Gospel and see what the Lord does.


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## BobVigneault

c (what a beautiful name),

I have dealt directly with demons on a few occasions before I was reformed and I believe I made a big mistake, probably made things worse. Christians, usually outside the reformed community, think of the world in terms of "Some days God is winning and some days the devil is winning and we need to give God all the help we can. We've gotta pray him through cuz if we don't pray then God can't work."

This of course is just wrong. God's plan cannot be thwarted, Christ has established his kingdom and church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Jesus has bound Satan and we see his death throes and that's all.

I sincerely believe your attempt to 'exorcise' will only put yourself and those you are trying to help in more danger for you unintentionally deny the sovereign power of God and play into the devil's scheme.

I wrote this in a previous post on the subject of spritual warfare:

The problem with this topic is there is so much experience that begs for a systematic approach to dealing with specific activities, but it is very difficult to form a systematic approach from what few scriptures relate to it.

Most of the scriptures are from the gospel narratives and don't lend themselves to building a doctrine. The temptation is to meld a few incidents from scripture with a bulk of varied experiences and then compile a system that really has little foundation.

Again, I caution, as one who has come under severe attack and blatant activity, there are no scriptural directives to directly battle against the demonic, this is the realm of the angels and our Lord. We must seek to acknowledge his truth, his attibutes, his promises. The angels fight a battle of power, we wage a battle of truth. We are no match for the demonic in a power struggle.

I fear that many have set out to engage in 'spiritual warfare' or 'deliverance ministry' only to invite and incite the demonic to do more damage.

While we wrestle not against flesh and blood, our weapons are still, truth, prayer and steadfastness. Don't try to give Satan a black eye, Jesus has already done that. Don't boast about how you will defeat the demonic, the charismatics have overstepped themselves there. Seek first God's Kingdom and his righteousness and do not give a foothold for the devil.  Ephesians 6 is the best teaching in this regard.


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## BobVigneault

I agree with you sister but I am concerned about what you might be thinking when you say "prepared to fight". We should be prepared but we should stand firm in a defensive posture. Ephesians 6 is primarily concerned with defense. The two offensive weapons are prayer and the Word of God.

I have been involved in 'deliverance ministry' where we tried to bring the fight to the devil and we had no scriptural basis for the 'tricks' we were pulling. I think we brought more suffering upon my family than good. We laid on hands, we anointed door posts, we had a person 'sensitive' to the spiritual realm, I heard other worldly voices, I saw people treated like pawns by powerful spirits and I am very sure, we were wrong to try and fight that way. I really believe we did more to invite the demonic than fight it. So that's my caution, not necessarily toward you personally c, but a general caution. Our fight is not with the demonic, we can only resist as we stand firm in the Word and acknowledgment of God's almighty power and the absolute authority of Christ Jesus

Eph 6:10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. 14 Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. 16 In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; 17 and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, 18 praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, 19 and also for me, that words may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains, that I may declare it boldly, as I ought to speak.

[Edited on 10-9-2006 by BobVigneault]


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## BobVigneault

The apostle's casting out demons in the gospel narratives is not a good basis for building a method of 'casting out'. The apostles were casting out demons as a sign that the Kingdom of God was at hand just as they also healed the lame, the blind and raised the dead. 

Would we say that "there are cases in which we are called to do something in the form of" raising the dead? Not at all. God's speaks to us through his revealed Word, the Bible. The signs of kingdom authority over demons was not to teach a doctrine or method but to reveal the kingly nature of Christ.


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## BobVigneault

c, I sure appreciate the questions you are asking and the gracious spirit with which you receive the answers, especially if we disagree. You exemplify the spirit of Christ in your gentleness. 

One thing you will notice here on the Board is that as neo-puritans we strive for the same type of precise language that the puritans of old held to. They always and only began with the bible and then through logic and necessary consequence they would build their doctrines and exhortations. They didn't leave any room for sentiment or speculation in these arguments. They let scripture interpret scripture - not the heart, not the times and not even the consensus of a majority if it stood against the clear teaching of scripture.

There are areas of experience regarding spiritual warfare that I cannot yet synthesize with scripture but I'm making progress. Most importantly though, I will not build a doctrine that stands apart from scripture and in this area of the demonic there is a great temptation to speculate or go with the experiences of others. I won't do that however. Experiences and anecdotal facts do not build a doctrine.

I'm not saying you're doing this but I want you to understand the tone of the responses that you are apt to get from the veterans of the board. Please don't think we are a bunch of pharisees, not right away anyway. But you will find that we will hold some things with the utmost importance that others may find trivial and we may discount something that might be the core value of another particular denomination. Please be patient with us and you will experience some of the most 'wrestled with' and precise theology that you will find anywhere on the internet. Blessings sister.

[Edited on 10-10-2006 by BobVigneault]


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## Larry Hughes

My wife and her home town area went through this issue. Some of the things she could tell!!! Our first two years of marriage was quite an experience. To this day my own brother-in-law, a reformed pastor, is warring with this issue in that area. It leads ENTIRE flocks astray, pastors not well grounded and pride among the super spiritual.

The biggest thing that happens in "demon hunting" is that it becomes just that demon hunting. At length the entire Gospel is lost. Then and only then do you see the devil's real device and strategy.

What you end up with in some of these situations is an awful amalgamation of pietism and superstition. One might rightly observe that the former is really the later but for the sake of discussion I separate the two. The "in crowd" is the high spiritual crowd "hunting down demons". They develop over time and with much work as to becoming the “ghost busters”. Slowly forms of superstitious legalism begin to impregnate the area. E.g. (don't laugh this is true) some in that area were so afraid to incite a demon and then become ‘possessed’ they would think that just watching a television program with a monster in it or catching a curse word would “open a door” for possession. Then off they’d go for “treatment”. Treatment varied but it was certainly what the Reformers would call ‘enthusiasm”. Whole congregations would divide. The “unspiritual” usually were subtly castigated by the “spiritual”. The castigation was in the form of “nice” and indicating that the “unspiritual” (basically anyone questioning what was going on) as those “not getting it”, but they were looked down upon in a very “humble” and “pious” way. The “unspiritual” of the group were often the truly struggling with and because of this crap, “am I a really a Christian because I’m not getting it.” The sum of the movement created two groups: The truly deceived spiritual “demon hunters” who thought highly of themselves but in nice humble categories and the despairing who wondered why they were not “getting it”. Lost in all of this mess is Christ.

All of this began to open whole new doorways of “fresh revelation” among the enthused. Decisions were made when “a Word from the Lord was received”. Let me give you another example, again don’t laugh this one I know personally happened. During one of the areas “Christian camp” events we ran into this: On this mountain hill top was a group of men “being delivered” by a blaspheme of the Lord’s Supper in which the folks taking the “Lord’s Supper” would pray their sins onto the bread. The bread then was cast into the woods (I’m not making this up), a “word from the Lord” indicated to a “pastor” that this should be done. A group of about 6 buzzards were circling miles high over the area. One of the “pastor” leaders in the group came down to announce that “the Lord sent those buzzards to eat that sin laden bread/flesh.” Meanwhile back at the so called “prayer chapel” way down the hill, simultaneously, the women praying looked up over the hill/mountain top and saw the same buzzards over the folks on the hill being “delivered”. And became excited to frantic prayer because, “the devil was sending demons in the guise of these same buzzards to attack those on the hill from being delivered.” I kid you not! 

Being a good scientist I pointed out to my wife that 1. Buzzards do not eat bread, they eat real flesh. 2. They were flying several thousand feet above the site and some white bread tossed in the woods didn’t even hit their radar.

Of course when I dissented I became one of those “didn’t get it crowd” receiving “pious pity” and let me tell you, if you are not founded in the truths of the Gospel, which I was still on the learning curve, that stuff can strike the believer hard. Which is Satan’s real goal with all such non-sense, obscure the Gospel anyway he can.


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## C. Matthew McMahon

There were three areas in redemptive history that warranted "miracles" "signs" and "wonders" (Which included exorcisms).

1) The Mosaic era. (Surrounding the redemption of God's people from Egyptian bondage).

2) The Elijah and Elisha cycles (Surrounding repentance and the coming judgment)

3) The Christ/Apostolic Era (Surrounding both the redemption of God's people and the coming judgment).

Demon possession is VERY specific, and VERY noticiable.

Matthew 9:33 And when the demon was cast out, the mute spoke. And the multitudes marveled, saying, "It was never seen like this in Israel!"

Men are usually infirmed in some way - mute in this case. The people were astonished - things like this were not normal.

Matthew 17:15 "Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is an epileptic and suffers severely; for he often falls into the fire and often into the water. 

Epileptic fits, severe suffering.

Mark 7:30 And when she had come to her house, she found the demon gone out, and her daughter lying on the bed. 

This is in stark contrast to her former actions. Now she was quiet and lying down.

Luke 4:33 Now in the synagogue there was a man who had a spirit of an unclean demon. And he cried out with a loud voice,

Crying out.

Luke 8:29 For it had often seized him, and he was kept under guard, bound with chains and shackles; and he broke the bonds and was driven by the demon into the wilderness. 

Uncanny strength.

Luke 9:42 And as he was still coming, the demon threw him down and convulsed him. 

The demoniacs are empowered and have control in chaos.

Acts 16:16 Now it happened, as we went to prayer, that a certain slave girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters much profit by fortune-telling.

Uncanny ability to know the future.


Its not that I don't think someone could be possessed today, its just not something we need to get "Ghost Hunters" out there after.


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## larryjf

Perhaps we can take our lead from Michael the archangel...

_Jude 1:9 - Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee._


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## py3ak

Trevor brings up an interesting point. I have also, at times, heard of reputed demon possessions around here.  Lloyd-Jones has a book, _Healing and the Supernatural_ where he gives diagnostic points (they didn't call him the Doctor for nothing) on discerning what is physical, what is psychical and what is demonic. At the very least, it will help one to sort through the issues of distinguishing the causes of various types of mental imbalance.


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## BobVigneault

Joshua, I'm so glad you brought up Job. We know, because scripture let's us in on the background, that Satan was the source of Job's torment. However, as far as Job was concerned, it was God who was inflicting him and his response was "Though he slay me, yet I will praise Him" and "I know that my redeemer lives and I will see Him standing on the earth." And that was the source of Job's deliverance, NOT a knowledge of Satan.

As Luther said, the devil is God's ape.  Satan is God's agent of wrath, a roaring lion on a leash. Our concern is not with him, our focus should be on the power and sovereignty of God and NOT giving Satan a foothold. Ascribing control of any part of the kingdom to Satan is to give him a foothold.

In his marvelous (free) course http://www.covenantseminary.edu/worldwide/en/OT215/OT215.asp
on Biblical Theology, the sweet Dr. Gerard Van Groningen gives a wonderful illustration of Satan's effect in the world:

"Jesus surely exercises his Lordship over the parasite kingdom. But Satan can still move about. I remember seeing my father slaughtering a bull and getting kicked so hard by the bull when we all thought it was entirely dead. It was dead, but its leg shot out as it went through the death throws. The devil is in his death throws, and anyone in the death throws can be powerful in their last strokes before the end. Do not forget it. Christ exercised lordship, but the devil can give some powerful backstrokes yet."

[Edited on 10-10-2006 by BobVigneault]


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## BobVigneault

*One more thing...*

I was reminded of something last night when I got a desperate call from a loved one who thought she was being haunted. It may have been demonic attack, I'm not sure.

I still hold that non-engagement is our best defense. That and securing the armor listed in Ephesians 6. I was reminded last night that *not being afraid* is such an important defense. I base this on experience and scripture. We are told in scripture not to give opportunity to the devil and that he sets snares. He sets snares using our anger and also using our own fear. Fear is the biggie. 

We are to fear God alone. If you fear God more than you fear anything else then you will fear nothing. Fearing God is the key to overcoming all fear - fear of man, the future, demons or of unseen circumstances. If you fear something above God then you have made an idol and robbed God of his glory.

If you have ever wondered how ants find there way into your house let me tell you. Hundreds and hundreds of scouts go out looking for tiny holes with a space on the other side suitable for dwelling. The searching is at random but with hundreds searching they eventually will find a hole. It only takes one ant to find a hole and then report back to the others. Then they all come.

This is how the demonic works: one finds a person who is easy to frighten; someone they can get to obsess about the demonic and spiritual warfare. They will even pretend that you are engaging them and frightening them away and making progress. You're not. They just want to keep you in the game. Good sound doctrine is the wall of protection they can't penetrate. Fear is the tiny hole that they will use to break through. Fear God, know God, seek obedience in gratitude to God and you are resisting the devil - the demonic will find no holes. They will just go away.


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## LadyFlynt

Good points, Bob.


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## R. Scott Clark

This thread signals a persistent thread in American evangelicalism but one that is not unique to American evangelicalism as some have shown here. 

Throughout the church we have often misinterpreted unusual but "natural" phenomena as supernatural or apostolic phenomena. This happens for a variety of theological, psychological, and historical reasons. Theologically, we have often failed to distinguish between canonical or redemptive history and post-canonical history. Put plainly, we are not David, Elijah, or Paul. We don't have apostolic power. We haven't seen Jesus face to face. We were to experience any one of the things Paul suffered, we would likely die. We don't get teleported/transported by the Spirit from place to place. We don't raise the dead or kill them (or rather the Spirit doesn't do these things through us). Why? We're not apostles. This touches on the other thread concerning natural law and civil polity. This is the flip-side of that debate. We don't live in the canonical world. If we don't accept that then we will likely continue to try to re-create the canonical world politically or spiritually. 

The psychological reasons for this urge, I think, have to do with wanting to feel as if we are in the "real" period of divine action and salvation. We feel "left out" (if not left behind). I've noticed this with my Pentecostal friends. They describe every ordinary thing in apostolic terms. They can't bear to live in a post-canonical, ordinary world. They have to have the same immediate experience of Christ and the Spirit as the apostles. They cannot content themselves with Word and sacrament.

Historically, there have been two great epochs in W. history since the close of the canon: Christendom, modernity (and late modernity which many probably wrongly call post-modernity). In Christian antiquity/Christendom we often blurred the border between the canonical period and our existence. History was less defined. 

Beginning in the Renaissance and especially in Modernity (more or less since 1650) we have had a more highly defined sense of "then" and "now." Some of this consciousness has not been helpful. It has often relied on anti-theistic assumptions (e.g., Lessing's Ugly Ditch and Kant's phenomenal/noumenal distinction; rationalism, empiricism, and irrationalism/romanticism). So, under Christendom, it wasn't always clear that we weren't in the canonical period. This gave rise to the sorts of interpretations of events one finds in Tertullian and even in the medieval period. They lived in a "sacral" and highly supernaturalized world. Bees were thought to build altars to the sacred body of Christ (having carried away crumbs of the host). It's the sort of thing one still sees in 2/3s world Romanism where statues "bleed" etc. 

Most of us, however, don't live in that world. We know that, in the ordinary providence of God, statues don't bleed. If everything is extraordinary, however, then anything is possible and nothing is impossible or even unlikely. The Modern turn, however, helped re-kindle Romanticism in the 19th century and revivalism and hyper-spiritualism in the 19th and 20th centuries. In response to Kant's closed world, people turned to the mystical or emotional and in the 20th century they have largely become the same thing. If a preacher (using Finney's methods of manipulations) can create the right emotional experience, the "Spirit" is said to be present in worship. How does one know? One had the appropriate "affection." (The 1st Great Awakening is not immune from this critique). This same sort of thing happened in the 14th and 15th centuries when the nominalists reacted to the realists. 

That's why we should be thankful for Warfield's sane and sobering analysis of these phenomena in _Counterfeit Miracles_. Call him a killjoy but he told the truth. Most of the things to which people appeal as evidence of canonical activity in the world (be it demons or angels) is unverifiable and dubious on the face of it.

Is there real spiritual wickedness in the world? Absolutely but more often than not it's not where we think it is. "The devil wears Prada" indeed! He spends a lot more time in the corporate headquarters of (name your favorite multinational) than he does in your neighbor's house. Remember, however many servants he has, as I always told my children, there's only one devil and he's not ubiquitous. He can only bother one person at a time. Further, we belong to Jesus. The evil one can roar all he wants. Throw a bottle of ink at him and go back to sleep.

rsc


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## Kevin

Thanks dr SC that was very helpfull !


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## BobVigneault

I never wanted to encounter the supernatural. I am a man of science and remain skeptical of spooky things. But I did encounter the supernatural none the less, two of our houses were turned into spook central. Never saw a bleeding statue but struggled with a bleeding bath tub one exhausting evening. Three different plumbers told us to call a priest. This was only one of many encounters

I assure you Dr. Scott, I never wanted a supernatural explanation for any of that. I do hope you aren't saying that I had these encounters because I wanted to believe in demons. I agree with what you said and it applies 99% of the time, but there are events that can only be explained by demonic activity. I just don't believe any longer that we should engage them.


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## LadyFlynt

I have to ask...what did you do with the tub?


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## BobVigneault

Cleaned it. I'm sorry to rouse your curiosity like that but I want discuss it in a public forum. I only mentioned it as an example of unexplainable phenomena.


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## R. Scott Clark

Dear Bob,

Strange things do happen in this world and I don't mean to imply that I believe in a "closed" universe. I only mean to say that we don't live in the apostolic world or the world in which Jesus cast out demons. If we note the progression of redemptive history from Jesus' direct encounter with the Kingdom of Darkness to the relative absence of such in the epistles. 

As my old prof Derke Bergsma pointed out years ago, when Jesus brought the Kingdom it aroused intense, direct opposition from the evil one. After the ascension, the conflict was not as intense. Even the Apostles did not face opposition on that scale. 

The way one interprets strange phenomena is colored by one's eschatology. As I read the Apocalypse (and the rest of the NT and the OT in the light of the New) this is the time for spasms of persecution and periods of relative calm. To be sure there will be lying wonders and the like, especially, I suppose, as the end draws near. 

Obviously I wasn't there and I can't say what happened or even what can happen (_de potentia absoluta Dei_) in this world, that's not my job, but we can approach "unusual" things with a degree of healthy skepticism, with the understanding that we live in the post-canonical era.

rsc



BobVigneault said:


> I never wanted to encounter the supernatural. I am a man of science and remain skeptical of spooky things. But I did encounter the supernatural none the less, two of our houses were turned into spook central. Never saw a bleeding statue but struggled with a bleeding bath tub one exhausting evening. Three different plumbers told us to call a priest. This was only one of many encounters
> 
> I assure you Dr. Scott, I never wanted a supernatural explanation for any of that. I do hope you aren't saying that I had these encounters because I wanted to believe in demons. I agree with what you said and it applies 99% of the time, but there are events that can only be explained by demonic activity. I just don't believe any longer that we should engage them.


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## BobVigneault

Dear brother Clark,

If you look at my previous posts regarding demonic activity you will see that I agree with you 99.8%. I have more than a healthy amount of skepticism. The other people involved in what happened are irritated at me for my level of skepticism.

Never the less I encountered events way beyond the classification of natural occurrence. I'm going to launch an ink bottle across your bow just as a warning shot... in christian love of course.


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## Augusta

Dr. Clark, how would you rebut the argument that not all who did miracles in the NT were Apostles? It has been my understanding that the cessationist argument is that only the Apostles were given that authority and that only they could lay hands on someone to pass that authority onto them. So that after the Apostles died the authority for miraculous signs also died out. 

Then what do we do with Mark 9:38-40

38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 

39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 

40 For he that is not against us is on our part. 

I want to have an answer for this since I come from a charismatic background and when I argue for cessationism this is a tough one. The man was displaying miraculous signs but the Apostles did not know him thus they had not layed hands on him to give him that authority. Where did he then get it? 

Is my understanding of the passing of Apostolic authority wrong. I am thinking of Acts 8. When they layed hands someone to recieve the Holy Spirit and then Simon the sorcerer wanted it too because he wanted miraculous power. As a cessasionist I don't think this was a "second blessing" but a giving of authority for workers for Christ. Is that wrong? 

If you could elucidate me here or point me to article or lectures you may have on it, it would be much appreciated


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## Augusta

*Bump* 

For anyone who has an answer to the last post.


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## turmeric

Augusta, check under QuickLinks to see Who's Online. I have some opinions, but I'd rather wait for Dr. Clark along with you.


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## Blue Tick

R. Scott Clark said:


> This thread signals a persistent thread in American evangelicalism but one that is not unique to American evangelicalism as some have shown here.
> 
> Throughout the church we have often misinterpreted unusual but "natural" phenomena as supernatural or apostolic phenomena. This happens for a variety of theological, psychological, and historical reasons. Theologically, we have often failed to distinguish between canonical or redemptive history and post-canonical history. Put plainly, we are not David, Elijah, or Paul. We don't have apostolic power. We haven't seen Jesus face to face. We were to experience any one of the things Paul suffered, we would likely die. We don't get teleported/transported by the Spirit from place to place. We don't raise the dead or kill them (or rather the Spirit doesn't do these things through us). Why? We're not apostles. This touches on the other thread concerning natural law and civil polity. This is the flip-side of that debate. We don't live in the canonical world. If we don't accept that then we will likely continue to try to re-create the canonical world politically or spiritually.
> 
> The psychological reasons for this urge, I think, have to do with wanting to feel as if we are in the "real" period of divine action and salvation. We feel "left out" (if not left behind). I've noticed this with my Pentecostal friends. They describe every ordinary thing in apostolic terms. They can't bear to live in a post-canonical, ordinary world. They have to have the same immediate experience of Christ and the Spirit as the apostles. They cannot content themselves with Word and sacrament.
> 
> Historically, there have been two great epochs in W. history since the close of the canon: Christendom, modernity (and late modernity which many probably wrongly call post-modernity). In Christian antiquity/Christendom we often blurred the border between the canonical period and our existence. History was less defined.
> 
> Beginning in the Renaissance and especially in Modernity (more or less since 1650) we have had a more highly defined sense of "then" and "now." Some of this consciousness has not been helpful. It has often relied on anti-theistic assumptions (e.g., Lessing's Ugly Ditch and Kant's phenomenal/noumenal distinction; rationalism, empiricism, and irrationalism/romanticism). So, under Christendom, it wasn't always clear that we weren't in the canonical period. This gave rise to the sorts of interpretations of events one finds in Tertullian and even in the medieval period. They lived in a "sacral" and highly supernaturalized world. Bees were thought to build altars to the sacred body of Christ (having carried away crumbs of the host). It's the sort of thing one still sees in 2/3s world Romanism where statues "bleed" etc.
> 
> Most of us, however, don't live in that world. We know that, in the ordinary providence of God, statues don't bleed. If everything is extraordinary, however, then anything is possible and nothing is impossible or even unlikely. The Modern turn, however, helped re-kindle Romanticism in the 19th century and revivalism and hyper-spiritualism in the 19th and 20th centuries. In response to Kant's closed world, people turned to the mystical or emotional and in the 20th century they have largely become the same thing. If a preacher (using Finney's methods of manipulations) can create the right emotional experience, the "Spirit" is said to be present in worship. How does one know? One had the appropriate "affection." (The 1st Great Awakening is not immune from this critique). This same sort of thing happened in the 14th and 15th centuries when the nominalists reacted to the realists.
> 
> That's why we should be thankful for Warfield's sane and sobering analysis of these phenomena in _Counterfeit Miracles_. Call him a killjoy but he told the truth. Most of the things to which people appeal as evidence of canonical activity in the world (be it demons or angels) is unverifiable and dubious on the face of it.
> 
> Is there real spiritual wickedness in the world? Absolutely but more often than not it's not where we think it is. "The devil wears Prada" indeed! He spends a lot more time in the corporate headquarters of (name your favorite multinational) than he does in your neighbor's house. Remember, however many servants he has, as I always told my children, there's only one devil and he's not ubiquitous. He can only bother one person at a time. Further, we belong to Jesus. The evil one can roar all he wants. Throw a bottle of ink at him and go back to sleep.
> 
> rsc





Wow very informative.

Thanks Dr. Clark


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## VirginiaHuguenot

Priest jailed after nun's death in exorcism (Feb. 19, 2007)


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## Theogenes

Back in the 1970's I was part of a charismatic group that specialized in "deliverance". They constantly focused on casting out demons out of everybody. It seemed like it was easy to get into a "the Devil made me do it" mode because there were so many demons floating around. It got so ridiculous that I remember at one summer camp a woman was prayed for to cast out the demon of caffeine!! Now, if there are demons of caffeine I know a lot of Reformed people that are quite possessed!!
One thing also I remember was that I NEVER heard the gospel of Justification by grace alone, through faith alone because of Christ alone. Never. 
I believe that demons are real, the bible says so. They are not just epilepsy or some other organic brain disease. And I think if you go looking for them and focus on them you will find them. But, I also believe that if you focus on Christ and preach the gospel that they will flee as they did when Christ walked on earth.
Jim


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## VirginiaHuguenot




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## polemic_turtle

I'm of your mind, brother: Reformed folk seem to sometimes take their lack of superstition too far. Dr. Vern Poythress has some good lectures on spiritual warfare which recently reminded me that when I'm opposing humanistic ideas and proponents, I face more than human minds and human arguements. Certainly in this post-post-Enlightenment type culture the demons are more intellectually-oriented than they are explictly demanding worship; conversely, they rule in countries where the Gospel has not forced them out.

Good conversation & profitable.


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## VirginiaHuguenot

Richard Gilpin, _Demonologia Sacra_, or _A Treatise on Satan's Temptations_

Thomas Brooks, _Precious Remedies Against Satan's Devices_

C.S. Lewis, _The Screwtape Letters_:



> [T]here are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about the devils. One is to disbelieve in their existence. The other is to believe, and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them. They themselves are equally pleased by both errors...


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## MrMerlin777

VirginiaHuguenot said:


>




 
I get such a kick out of Dilbert.


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