# vincent cheung



## Matthew1344 (Aug 5, 2014)

Anyone know anything about him? 

I heard he was good to read if you want to know about Supralapsarianism. First thing I noticed is that he says "God is the author of sin." Is this common amoung supralapsarians? I did not think it was and it greatly suprised me when i read it. Im not trying to say anything to get kicked out of here. I want to tread very lightly on the subject. 

Basically I have two questions:
1) Does anyone know anything about vincent cheung?
2) If you are supra does that mean you believe God is author of sin?

I live in Thailand, so its is difficult to buy books and have them sent to me. Also, it's hard for me to trust things i read of random sites on internet because its hard to tell if they are stating the truth or if they are just biased. So in your responses can you stated where you stand: infra supra unsure.


----------



## Matthew1344 (Aug 5, 2014)

One reason he is throwing me off is because he is the only person I have heard say "God is the author of sin". And usually when you are the only person that is saying something, you are usually wrong. But I heard from someone that he is the best source for supra, and i know that there are people on PB that are supra and I have never heard any of them say this.


----------



## Matthew1344 (Aug 5, 2014)

So the WCF is infra and the LBC. I remember explicitly in those that is says "God is not the author of sin." 
Also, now I am reading Attributes of God" by Pink and he says "God is not the author of sin" but pink was supra. So where does this Vincent guy get this? Is this really supra line of thinking?


----------



## Contra_Mundum (Aug 5, 2014)

Whatever his helpful points are, I think you can find numerous, more consistent guides. From my limited knowledge of him, Cheung seems at times willing to sacrifice orthodoxy on the altar of logical consistency (as he conceives it must be). This business about God being the author of sin is just one case of this tendency. In other words, "if the logic is correct, then it must be true, regardless of the consequences."
http://puritanreformed.blogspot.com/2013/06/vincent-cheung-and-author-of-sin.html

The only way to unpersuade such a person of his conviction is not with a simple appeal to Scripture's plain or consistent teaching; but by subverting the man's false logic. This is not to put logic down too much; but real Reformed Theology has always accepted limits to logic, as it is the expression of human thinking, albeit in search of accuracy.

Cheung, however, is (or was) a philosophical Clarkian (after G.H.Clark). For whom "Logic" and the Logos (Jn.1:1) are identical. At one time (these observations are now at least a decade old) Cheung advocated Scripturalism (the belief that Scripture is the one reliable source of true propositions, making Scripture the basis of *all* knowledge, properly so called); and "occasionalism," ( Occasionalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) as mediated through the lens of Clark and Scripturalism (http://www.proginosko.com/aquascum/cheung.htm ).

Bottom line for me, even if Cheung gives an accurate and strong presentation of supralapsarianism, or some other position; his idiosyncrasies situate him outside mainstream Reformed theology.  Read with caution.
http://www.puritanboard.com/f49/scripturalism-occasionalism-41595


----------



## Matthew1344 (Aug 5, 2014)

Contra_Mundum said:


> For whom "Logic" and the Logos (Jn.1:1) are identical.


What does this mean?



> It is, then, fundamentally necessary and wholesome for Christians to know that God foreknows nothing contingently, but that He foresees, purposes, and does all things according to His own immutable, eternal and infallible will. This bombshell knocks 'free-will' flat, and utterly shatters it; so that those who want to assert it must either deny my bombshell, or pretend not to notice it, or find some other way of dodging it. (Packer / Johnston, p. 80)


This is from Luther Freedom of the Will. Did Luther believe that God was the Author of evil? 
This website is using this quote and many others to prove it. The guy is catholic.


----------



## Contra_Mundum (Aug 5, 2014)

Matthew1344 said:


> Contra_Mundum said:
> 
> 
> > For whom "Logic" and the Logos (Jn.1:1) are identical.
> ...


It means that Clark (and presumably those who follow him) thought: "In the beginning was the Logic... and the Logic was God," is a good translation.



Matthew1344 said:


> > It is, then, fundamentally necessary and wholesome for Christians to know that God foreknows nothing contingently, but that He foresees, purposes, and does all things according to His own immutable, eternal and infallible will. This bombshell knocks 'free-will' flat, and utterly shatters it; so that those who want to assert it must either deny my bombshell, or pretend not to notice it, or find some other way of dodging it. (Packer / Johnston, p. 80)
> 
> 
> This is from Luther Freedom of the Will. Did Luther believe that God was the Author of evil?
> This website is using this quote and many others to prove it. The guy is catholic.



No, the whole notion is pure slander against biblical predestination. Whoever the writer is might as well accuse St.Augustin of believing it, and he's considered among the top ancient theologians respected by the papists. Lutherans (following Luther) are pretty good Augustinians on predestination; Calvinists are even moreso, since unlike Concord-Lutherans they don't back off Augustin's teaching of reprobation; sometimes called "double" predestination.

Luther was just an (eventually former) Augustinian monk, who actually believed what Augustin taught from Scripture against Pelagius. Unlike many Romanists then or now.


----------



## psycheives (Aug 5, 2014)

> "First thing I noticed is that he says "God is the author of sin." Is this common amoung supralapsarians? I did not think it was "



Your assumption is correct. supralapsarians would disagree with Cheung. One brother wrote: "The late Dr. Gordon H. Clark never once said that God is the "author" of sin. In fact, Clark said the opposite. Clark said God is the ultimate "cause" of sin but that moral agents are the authors of their own sins. God decrees all that comes to pass but without violating the wills of moral agents. Instead He works through secondary causes and contingencies, even directing the way men will choose (Proverbs 21:1).
" 

I enjoyed Augustine's challenging book on the subject of God, free will and evil: On Free Choice of the Will - Kindle edition by Augustine, Thomas Williams. Religion & Spirituality Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.


----------

