# Depression in the Christian the Purtian view



## Christopher88 (Apr 19, 2013)

Depression is very real threat and attack on the mind. With recent news and the times the world is in, the much needed dialog of depression among Christians is here. 

According to William Bridge (Purtian) a saints downcast soul can be had because of their sins."Sometimes the discouragements of the saints and people of God are drawn from their sins."_ Bridge, William. A lifting up for the Down Cast. 67 _

The question at hand is this; is depression from God, self, or the enemy? Bridge in his sermon series on the Downcast argues why saints get depressed from many angles and sin is one of those angles. 

Another question is; Is depression sin? 

Happy weekend chewing.


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## Romans922 (Apr 19, 2013)

From a NANC type counseling book I have:



> The symptoms of depression are indicative of wrong thinking and/or spiritual problems. It results when a person uses bad feelings as an excuse not to live in accordance with God's commands. Depression is sin if we allow the feelings to control our life instead of God. Realizing this gives hope because God's Word has the answer for sin.
> 
> Issues often that lead someone to despair:
> 
> Guilt, Motivation by feelings, Failure to fulfill daily responsibilities, lack of purpose in living, lack of hope/focus on the perceived hopelessness of the situation, brooding/listening only to one's pessimistic/hopless/or critical thoughts, chronic health problems, inadequate sleep, financial problems.


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## FenderPriest (Apr 19, 2013)

Depression is a rather elastic term. Can Christians feel down? Certainly - about 60% of the Psalms have a prominent feature of struggle, sadness, disappointment, or confusion. They're in a "minor" key, so to speak. Many things are sad - Christians weep, like Jesus, even though they know things will get much better. Depression is not inherently sinful though it may lead to or be caused by sin. I think the answer, to some extent, is to enter in to people's lives and understand what's going on and causing the depression. The Spirit speaks powerfully through Scripture when it is rightly illuminated and applies to our needs. Because the human experience is not simple, the application of Scripture is not always simple, especially in the realm of depression. Depression can be caused by sin, but not always. Sad things happen - depression is actually the right response at times.


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## Skyler (Apr 19, 2013)

David Murray over at HeadHeartHand Ministries has some good articles on depression and counseling in general from a Christian/Americanized Scottish Presbyterian perspective.


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## py3ak (Apr 19, 2013)

I found this post from a previous thread very illuminating.

Depression is used very loosely in popular parlance. It functions as a synonym for despair, the feeling of desertion, sadness, regret, grief, as well as those times when we become indifferent and apathetic because we are sort of self-anesthetized from painful realities. I don't think that catch-all usage is particularly helpful. There are many ways in which our souls can be troubled, and those can be normal or pathological, and again sinful or innocent. But we do run very grave risk of becoming Job's comforters when we interact with people on the assumption that their trouble of soul is due to sin, and that the therapy is necessarily rebuke.


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## Rich Koster (Apr 19, 2013)

Romans922 said:


> From a NANC type counseling book I have:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is suffering from chronic pain that causes sleeplessness and other brain abnormalities a sin? NO. Some of the reactions to it can be sinful. However, these one size fits all answers are more damaging than helpful in some cases.


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## JimmyH (Apr 19, 2013)

Blessed are the poor in spirit, blessed are they that mourn. MLJ points out that when a believer realizes his sinful nature, his need of a Saviour, he becomes poor in spirit. Leading to the mourning, and finally, hungering and thirsting for righteousness. I don't know that these feelings would be defined as depression, but IME they are uncomfortable.

We know clinical depression can be caused by a chemical imbalance, life circumstances, and certainly by Satan's wiles. In some cases I suppose our Holy Father bringing deserved chastisement could be a source of depression. As for indwelling sin, the way of the transgressor is hard. We rely on the imputed righteousness but we suffer the pangs of conscience nevertheless. IME. Leaning on Jesus, our blessed Saviour, is the wellspring from which we can be filled.


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## A5pointer (Apr 19, 2013)

Rich Koster said:


> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> > From a NANC type counseling book I have:
> ...



I agree whole wholeheartedly. Noting context in the book is unknown, that as a stand alone view is disturbing. Please do not react to a depressed brother who seeks your help guided by this paradigm. "Spiritual Problem" is a whole subject to itself that I feel needs cautious definition. It is used far too often and out of bounds in making judgment of a fellow believer. in my opinion


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## Rich Koster (Apr 19, 2013)

py3ak said:


> I found this post from a previous thread very illuminating.
> 
> Depression is used very loosely in popular parlance. It functions as a synonym for despair, the feeling of desertion, sadness, regret, grief, as well as those times when we become indifferent and apathetic because we are sort of self-anesthetized from painful realities. I don't think that catch-all usage is particularly helpful. There are many ways in which our souls can be troubled, and those can be normal, sinful, or pathological. But we do run very grave risk of becoming Job's comforters when we interact with people on the assumption that their trouble of soul is due to sin, and that the therapy is necessarily rebuke.



It looks like we posted similarly at the same time. This is worded better.


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## a mere housewife (Apr 19, 2013)

I have been deeply and lastingly comforted in some of the worst moments of life by the presence of Psalm 88 in inspired Scripture, these words God gave to the church in which to cry out to Him in utter darkness through the ages -- the words in which we are merely echoing the cry of Christ. 

Jeremiah is also a tremendous comfort to me. No other prophet wrestles so honestly, so forcefully with God through despair: states with such boldness the things that we feel when we are struggling, when we can only curse the day on which we were born. And here too (as in Lamentations 3) we find the experience of Christ.

Certainly depression is an experience that can only arise in a world groaning and travailing in futility -- a world that must undergo an experience of God's wrath (Isaiah 13, Psalm 18). And we can none of us claim to be without sin ourselves. But Christ could. And the surprise that overtakes the world on the Day of the Lord where God's fury is poured out against the nations is the surprise that overtakes the individual: we meet this God on the cross. He entered into this darkest of all places in our experience. Because of this, when we walk there, we find 'hope' -- God Himself, not merely some principle but a person, the hope of all people. We can go on to Psalm 89, to sing of steadfast love; and to those statements of the revelation of God in Lamentations 3 that are at the heart of that utter pain and desolation -- 'This I call to mind, and therefore I have hope: the steadfast love of the LORD never ceases; his mercies never come to an end; they are new every morning; great is your faithfulness.'

Perhaps we ought to simply cry these words with those who are walking in that dark valley, instead of presuming to sit in judgment on and make sense of their experience. This is what our Lord did. The LORD, Jehovah in Psalm 88, is our portion, therefore we will hope in Him.


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## A5pointer (Apr 19, 2013)

PY3 perfect 

Reminds me of Elijah and his bout with a "spiritual problem". How could he flee for his life?


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## jogri17 (Apr 19, 2013)

a couple of years ago I read all the way through Baxter's _Christian Directory_ and I made a colour coded guide and there is some decent (though not always right and often just bizzare) advice about depression. If you can get your hands on a digital edition, it would be useful just to do a quick search for depression related words within it.


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## Mushroom (Apr 19, 2013)

So... 'been down so long it looks like up to me' is maybe not the right attitude? How about 'put on a happy face'? There is a happy ending for all of the elect, but not always in this life, and it is not always an indication of failure or sin if that is the case. In the account I posted recently of Christian American Indians being methodically murdered by a Colonial Militia in 1782, I doubt that the mothers who had to witness their children tied up, brained with a mallet, and scalped one by one, were feeling too cheery. Why is it any different to see the same thing happen in slow motion as it often appears in this age? "We must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God." I don't know that we are required or expected to be gleeful about it.


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## Romans922 (Apr 19, 2013)

Rich Koster said:


> Romans922 said:
> 
> 
> > From a NANC type counseling book I have:
> ...




Rich, I think we agree, and I believe the book would agree. 

I bolded above the part that the latter comes in the context of. When it says, "Issues often that lead someone to despair" it means not that these are the roots of the sin of depression. But rather there are some of the things that people deal with that then the respond wrongly too (out of accord with God's commands).

Hope that clarifies.


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## py3ak (Apr 19, 2013)

Contrast this:



Romans922 said:


> From a NANC type counseling book I have:
> 
> 
> 
> > The symptoms of depression are indicative of wrong thinking and/or spiritual problems.



With this, from the post I linked previously:



armourbearer said:


> Further, it is best not presented as a "problem." The word "problem" presupposes "normality." Man is always trying to impose his own view of normality on other people; it is a strategy of domination. As believers in Christ (1) we are now identified with Christ; He is all the normality we need. (2.) We should maintain the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free. That means rejecting other people's control mechanisms.
> 
> One last thing -- once depression ceases to be a "problem," there will be no compulsion to seek a "remedy." Once we give up the false ideal of "the good life," and rest in the abundant life of Jesus Christ, anything which helps us to live in the world is simply good advice. We all have our infirmities, anxieties, stresses, etc. Each one's struggles are in some ways unique, but in many ways they are common (1 Corinthians 10:13). We can ask for the advice of those who have experience in the things with which we struggle, and that includes the spiritual temptations as well as the medical issues. It is wise to get all the information which will help one to make the best decision.



Once it is accepted that "the symptoms of depression are indicative of wrong thinking and/or spiritual problems" it seems to follow that it is not only a problem requiring a solution, but a defect requiring correction. While that view seems to have gained some prevalence in Christian circles, I think that view is defective and does require correction. And while I am certainly not the first to note it, part of that correction arises from singing the Psalms, and from noting that they are the words of Christ - words which he found adequate to the expression of his own experience.


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## Cymro (Apr 19, 2013)

Depression has many sources that activate it, and in a number of cases it is constitutional or develops from
a chemical imbalance. Pressure on the mind through extreme anxiety is another contributing factor, and 
maybe Paul had a knowledge of this when he wrote, "be anxious for nothing," or don't be over anxious.
But I think a distinction must be made between Mental Depression and Spiritual Depression. If my memory
serves me right Dr Lloyd Jones, who was previously a Harley street specialist, gave this difference and advice.
That a person with mental depression will keep going around and around in their narrative, and you will not be able 
to break into the circle. Whereas with spiritual depression the circle can be broken and spiritual guidance given.
David talked to himself about it--
"O why art thou cast down, my soul?
why , thus with grief opprest,
Art thou disquieted in me?
in God still hope and rest:
For yet I know I shall Him praise,
who graciously to me
The health is of my countenance,
yea, mine own God is He."


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## A5pointer (Apr 19, 2013)

py3ak said:


> Contrast this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Again, I think you are right on. Thank you. 

I cannot understand how the above book referenced is not taking an erroneous course? To suggest "the sin of depression" opens a can of harmful worms that need not be released. 

Secondly to change course and consider another option of the OP, "the enemy"? I do not see any room for this at all? Thoughts?


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## MW (Apr 19, 2013)

Sonny said:


> Bridge in his sermon series on the Downcast argues why saints get depressed from many angles and sin is one of those angles.



I think it is helpful to point out that the Puritans allowed for many different causes of what is being called "depression;" I'm just not so sure it is helpful to call it "depression." One of the features of Puritan treatments is their focus upon spiritual well-being. The concern is with one's ability to approach God in confidence, trust in Him for all life's cares, learn contentment and patience, abound in hope, and to remain active in a life of godliness. There is little to no concern with the kind of mental and emotional positivity which enables an individual to live "healthy, wealthy, and wise." As "depression" is usually connected with "earthly" well-being, it seems to me that the term does not really reflect what the Puritans were treating.


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## Stephen L Smith (Apr 19, 2013)

Cymro said:


> Dr Lloyd Jones, who was previously a Harley street specialist



Does this not remind one of John 1:46 “Can anything good come out of Wales?”


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## Cymro (Apr 20, 2013)

Jonah did!


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## Herald (Apr 20, 2013)

py3ak said:


> I found this post from a previous thread very illuminating.
> 
> Depression is used very loosely in popular parlance. It functions as a synonym for despair, the feeling of desertion, sadness, regret, grief, as well as those times when we become indifferent and apathetic because we are sort of self-anesthetized from painful realities. I don't think that catch-all usage is particularly helpful. There are many ways in which our souls can be troubled, and those can be normal, sinful, or pathological. But we do run very grave risk of becoming Job's comforters when we interact with people on the assumption that their trouble of soul is due to sin, and that the therapy is necessarily rebuke.



Ruben, your post is very helpful. I don't expect a medical doctor to understand the travail of the Christian soul. Medication is not the answer for that sort of "depression." Prayer, waiting upon God, meditating on the Word, confession of sin (where appropriate), and the burden-sharing of the saints may be the best remedy. 

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## Stephen L Smith (Apr 20, 2013)

Cymro said:


> Jonah did!


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## Phil D. (Apr 20, 2013)

Sonny said:


> the Purtian view



Who was Purt?


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## thbslawson (Apr 25, 2013)

As someone who's suffered with both Spiritual and Mental depression over the years I can testify that there is a big difference between them. Certainly there are crossovers, and by no means do I negate personal accountability. But there are different reasons for both, and they manifest themselves very differently.

Almost exclusively, Spiritual depression in my life has been caused by my sin and lack of spiritual discipline. It often begins to resolve with I confess my sin to the Lord and, if applicable, to others and seek to live a life of repentance.

Mental depression often seems to come out of nowhere. Yes I always have sin in my life, but when I experience "clinical" depression it manifests quite differently.

I don't want to oversimplify things, but the brain is an organ that can be damaged, and as one grows older does not always function properly. I'm not saying anyone here is saying otherwise, but I have heard it said before in other Christian spheres. 

There's a difference and a commonality in how these two are treated, and I've found this to be true for myself. Biblical counseling must *ALWAYS* be present and foremost in both. I believe synapses can misfire, but that doesn't mean Scripture shouldn't be used; it should always be the primary part of the treatment. But with mental depression, there may be other medical issues to address. I'm very blessed with a wonderful Christian doctor who treats the body, but always knows that the soul must be cared for ultimately.


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