# Doctrine of Hell



## Ajay (Jun 15, 2018)

This below questions are from one of my friend.
1. I find it hard to understand how the Doctrine of Hell glorifies God. While it's demonstrate God's justice and righteousness, why does this have to come at such a great and terrible cost?
2. Why does God take pleasure in predestinating millions of souls to hell? Why did God allow the human race to continue after Adam sinned when he knew what the end would be from beginning, ie that most people would end up in hell for all eternity.


----------



## Tom Hart (Jun 15, 2018)

I believe these objections have been mostly answered by the Apostle Paul. See Romans 9.

However, your friend does appear to make some improper assumptions, such as that God takes pleasure in the death of the wicked.

Reactions: Like 1 | Amen 1


----------



## Dachaser (Jun 15, 2018)

AJAY said:


> This below questions are from one of my friend.
> 1. I find it hard to understand how the Doctrine of Hell glorifies God. While it's demonstrate God's justice and righteousness, why does this have to come at such a great and terrible cost?
> 2. Why does God take pleasure in predestinating millions of souls to hell? Why did God allow the human race to continue after Adam sinned when he knew what the end would be from beginning, ie that most people would end up in hell for all eternity.


God is Holy, and He has to judge all evil and sin that is against Him and His ways.
The Marvel and wonder is not that any go to hell, but that any of us can get to heaven.
God has ordained the state in which all of those who will reject Jesus to save them to go, their hell, but they are still responsible for being in that final state.


----------



## earl40 (Jun 15, 2018)

Tom Hart said:


> I believe these objections have been mostly answered by the Apostle Paul. See Romans 9.
> 
> However, your friend does appear to make some improper assumptions, such as that God takes pleasure in the death of the wicked.



In of themselves God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked, but to assume anything that God does to the wicked is not "pleasurable" is simply wrong. Why in the world would God do anything that does not bring Himself glory, which is always "pleasurable".


----------



## JTB.SDG (Jun 15, 2018)

It's been said that nobody talked more about hell than Jesus. And it's true, as you skim the gospels, He's constantly going there. 

This is a fair question, and an important question; and it should deeply stir us. A Hollywood actor died a few years ago in a car accident; the car ended up going up in flames and most think he was still alive in that car as it burned up. What a way to die. And yet when we read in the gospels of the lake of fire where the enemies of God are thrown; this is torment that doesn't last 20 seconds; it's a torment that never, ever ends. This is punishment at its absolute extreme, is it not? Is this too much? Is God harsh? Does the punishment fit the crime?

I think here's where we have to go with it. We know the character of God. And now we are informed of His decree. So what we have to do is begin to reorient ourselves towards what reality actually is. The doctrine is meant to drive home just how serious our sin is; just how great in fact our crimes are against the King of heaven. We think they are comparably light. But if God's character is what Scripture says it is, and if this is the punishment He's dealing out; our assumptions about the weight of our offenses must be off-base. And it's no wonder; we don't look into these things as un-biased beings. Behold, the God of heaven. Better submit to Him while you can as the crucified Lamb. He's coming back as the Lion to tear limb from limb those who continue in rebellion against Him.


----------



## Dachaser (Jun 15, 2018)

JTB.SDG said:


> It's been said that nobody talked more about hell than Jesus. And it's true, as you skim the gospels, He's constantly going there.
> 
> This is a fair question, and an important question; and it should deeply stir us. A Hollywood actor died a few years ago in a car accident; the car ended up going up in flames and most think he was still alive in that car as it burned up. What a way to die. And yet when we read in the gospels of the lake of fire where the enemies of God are thrown; this is torment that doesn't last 20 seconds; it's a torment that never, ever ends. This is punishment at its absolute extreme, is it not? Is this too much? Is God harsh? Does the punishment fit the crime?
> 
> I think here's where we have to go with it. We know the character of God. And now we are informed of His decree. So what we have to do is begin to reorient ourselves towards what reality actually is. The doctrine is meant to drive home just how serious our sin is; just how great in fact our crimes are against the King of heaven. We think they are comparably light. But if God's character is what Scripture says it is, and if this is the punishment He's dealing out; our assumptions about the weight of our offenses must be off-base. And it's no wonder; we don't look into these things as un-biased beings. Behold, the God of heaven. Better submit to Him while you can as the crucified Lamb. He's coming back as the Lion to tear limb from limb those who continue in rebellion against Him.


God would seem to view being an eternity in hell as being a better state than simple being judged and burnt up totally, as some see it happening to the lost.


----------



## Scott Bushey (Jun 15, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> God would seem to view being an eternity in hell as being a better state than simple being judged and burnt up totally, as some see it happening to the lost.



I disagree. It would be much better for the reprobate if he were destroyed immediately instead of spending an eternity where the worm dieth not and the fire, never quenched.

Reactions: Like 4


----------



## Dachaser (Jun 15, 2018)

Scott Bushey said:


> I disagree. It would be much better for the reprobate if he were destroyed immediately instead of spending an eternity where the worm dieth not and the fire, never quenched.


God seems to see it to be preferred though, as the resurrection of Jesus bought for the lost immortal bodies to endure eternity with and in themselves.


----------



## Scott Bushey (Jun 15, 2018)

What? So, if I am understanding you, you believe Jesus' death and resurrection was an act of mercy to those in hell for eternity?


----------



## Dachaser (Jun 15, 2018)

Scott Bushey said:


> What? So, if I am understanding you, you believe Jesus' death and resurrection was an act of mercy to those in hell for eternity?


I believe that God decided that fate is preferred to the one of just being destroyed.


----------



## Scott Bushey (Jun 15, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> I believe that God decided that fate is preferred to the one of just being destroyed.



Yea, as punishment.


----------



## Dachaser (Jun 16, 2018)

Scott Bushey said:


> Yea, as punishment.


I also remember that Jesus stated that there will be differing degrees of punishment for those who are in hell. So just as degrees of eternal rewards in heavens, there shall be degrees of punishment in hell.


----------



## Aco (Jun 16, 2018)

Paul in Romans 9 answers already the questions.
Note that those objections are actually objections to the Christian Faith in general. If you press on God’s foreknowledge, you very quickly realise that all non-reformed positions and answers to those objections are worse. And everybody has to deal with foreknowledge because it is explicitly biblical (Rom 8).


----------



## Dachaser (Jun 16, 2018)

Aco said:


> Paul in Romans 9 answers already the questions.
> Note that those objections are actually objections to the Christian Faith in general. If you press on God’s foreknowledge, you very quickly realise that all non-reformed positions and answers to those objections are worse. And everybody has to deal with foreknowledge because it is explicitly biblical (Rom 8).


The problem with their view on Foreknowledge is that it makes God merely a passive watcher to see if a sinner will accept Jesus, while the Calvinist view is that God knows that they will be , die to Him being the cause of them doing so.


----------



## Aco (Jun 16, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> The problem with their view on Foreknowledge is that it makes God merely a passive watcher to see if a sinner will accept Jesus, while the Calvinist view is that God knows that they will be , die to Him being the cause of them doing so.



If the non-reformed view of foreknowledge is pressed to consistency, it actually becomes blasphemous. Could God forknow something else if he willed? Does God derive knowledge from within himself or does he receive information from outside himself?
Note another point, every Christian is a determinist in one sense or another (except if he holds to a consistent Chance metaphysic where every atom has self-determination). Who is the ultimate determiner? If God passively takes in information from the future, it still follows that the future is fixed, but by whom? That‘s called fatalism.


----------



## Dachaser (Jun 16, 2018)

Aco said:


> If the non-reformed view of foreknowledge is pressed to consistency, it actually becomes blasphemous. Could God forknow something else if he willed? Does God derive knowledge from within himself or does he receive information from outside himself?
> Note another point, every Christian is a determinist in one sense or another (except if he holds to a consistent Chance metaphysic where every atom has self-determination). Who is the ultimate determiner? If God passively takes in information from the future, it still follows that the future is fixed, but by whom? That‘s called fatalism.


The Ultimate logical end of the Non Cal viewpoint would seem to be Open Theism.


----------



## Ask Mr. Religion (Jun 16, 2018)

You may find Steele's treatment of "_foreknow_" edifying.

Attached is the appendix on the topic from his book _The Five Points of Calvinism: Defined, Defended, Documented_ by David N. Steele and Curtis C. Thomas.


----------



## Aco (Jun 16, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> The Ultimate logical end of the Non Cal viewpoint would seem to be Open Theism.



Not, only that it ends up eradicating Christian theism alltogether. Numerous attributes of God collapse in non-reformed positions. All non-reformed positions actually make God dependent on some kind of "environment," "context" or something outside of himself. 
The Triune God is his own context, the very essence of self-existence.


----------



## Dachaser (Jun 16, 2018)

Aco said:


> Not, only that it ends up eradicating Christian theism alltogether. Numerous attributes of God collapse in non-reformed positions. All non-reformed positions actually make God dependent on some kind of "environment," "context" or something outside of himself.
> The Triune God is his own context, the very essence of self-existence.


the real folly of the non cal position in regards to salvation is that it makes God dependent upon sinners to actually be able to accomplish the salvation of anyone. the death of Jesus would just be providing potential/maybe, and not real and definite salvation.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Scott Bushey (Jun 16, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> I also remember that Jesus stated that there will be differing degrees of punishment for those who are in hell. So just as degrees of eternal rewards in heavens, there shall be degrees of punishment in hell.



You imply that the minimal amount of punishment is beneficial in some respect. It isn't. The lowest level in hell will be indescribable torment.


----------



## Gforce9 (Jun 16, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> the real folly of the non cal position in regards to salvation is that it makes God dependent upon sinners to actually be able to accomplish the salvation of anyone. the death of Jesus would just be providing potential/maybe, and not real and definite salvation.



I would argue that that the "bare Calvinist" position is also very problematic, as it deals in Harmatiology and Soteriology while ignoring entirely the attendant and necessary Ecclesiology. When one (or group) says they believe in Total Depravity, but ignores the means of grace and does "worship" after man, stunted growth and a trainwreck is usually on the horizon.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Ben Mordecai (Jun 16, 2018)

Everyone's doctrine of sin an judgment contains an element of mystery. The main question is where you locate that mystery. Arminians seek to eliminate the mystery of why God would predestine people for Hell (or predestine people to be passed over for salvation) by assigning this to free will, but they end up simply locating the mystery in why God would create a Hell to begin with, or else why God who is all powerful didn't do more to save every particular individual. 

The Calvinist simply follows scripture in understanding that God is perfectly good and perfectly just and that the scheme of predestination is what it is. Nevertheless, God the Father, at great cost to himself sent his Son to suffer, and God the Son willingly suffered greatly, more than any other man, out of love for us. 

Therefore, whatever the answer to the mystery is, God's love demonstrated though action vindicates him from any accusations of maliciousness.

God intentionally did not reveal to us the reasons in his hidden will. Our duty is to respect that and not seek to ascend into heaven to discover it for ourselves but to hold firm to the word that is near us, in our mouths and in our hearts, to hold to what it teaches. It teaches that God is love and that he has the right to have mercy on those he will have mercy and harden those he will harden.


----------



## Ben Mordecai (Jun 16, 2018)

Lutherans, interestingly, locate the mystery in the extent of the atonement. They confidently affirm that Jesus died for every single person but it is a mystery why some are still judged for their sins for their unbelief.


----------



## De Jager (Jun 18, 2018)

Hell is a hard subject, and it is a scary subject.

If there's one thing I know from scripture, it's that God is just and righteous. He will never ever punish anyone more than they deserve. The only possibility other than getting exactly what you deserve is getting grace. 

I am also bound to conclude from scripture that Hell is real, and it is also really horrible. Therefore, harmonizing these two means that God is absolutely just in sending people to hell, and that if we think it is too harsh, then we simply either a) don't understand the sinfulness of sin, b) don't understand the holiness of God, or c) a combination of a) and b).

Also keep in mind that the Bible teaches that the unconverted soul does not seek God and glories in sin. In hell, such a soul would still be unconverted. Such a soul, even in hell would not seek God, and at most would be seeking for a reprieve from their torment, and would not actually repent. Refer to the story of the rich man and lazarus.


----------



## Dachaser (Jun 19, 2018)

Gforce9 said:


> I would argue that that the "bare Calvinist" position is also very problematic, as it deals in Harmatiology and Soteriology while ignoring entirely the attendant and necessary Ecclesiology. When one (or group) says they believe in Total Depravity, but ignores the means of grace and does "worship" after man, stunted growth and a trainwreck is usually on the horizon.


What is the bare Calvinist position, would it be subscribing to say just TULIP for Sotierology?


----------



## Dachaser (Jun 19, 2018)

Scott Bushey said:


> You imply that the minimal amount of punishment is beneficial in some respect. It isn't. The lowest level in hell will be indescribable torment.


Hell is indeed a terrible condition to be found in, but Jesus did seem to ascribe varying levels of punishment there when the sinner was judged by Him in the end.


----------



## Dachaser (Jun 19, 2018)

Ben Mordecai said:


> Everyone's doctrine of sin an judgment contains an element of mystery. The main question is where you locate that mystery. Arminians seek to eliminate the mystery of why God would predestine people for Hell (or predestine people to be passed over for salvation) by assigning this to free will, but they end up simply locating the mystery in why God would create a Hell to begin with, or else why God who is all powerful didn't do more to save every particular individual.
> 
> The Calvinist simply follows scripture in understanding that God is perfectly good and perfectly just and that the scheme of predestination is what it is. Nevertheless, God the Father, at great cost to himself sent his Son to suffer, and God the Son willingly suffered greatly, more than any other man, out of love for us.
> 
> ...


I realize much more now having been saved by the Grace of the Lord for many years just how thankful I am that God choose to love and redeem me. One of the main results of how good and gracious God has been towards me is must strive to let others know about Heaven and Hell when ever they ask me who and what I have my hope in.


----------



## Dachaser (Jun 19, 2018)

Ben Mordecai said:


> Lutherans, interestingly, locate the mystery in the extent of the atonement. They confidently affirm that Jesus died for every single person but it is a mystery why some are still judged for their sins for their unbelief.


They hold to the Unlimited Atonement viewpoint?


----------



## Dachaser (Jun 19, 2018)

De Jager said:


> Hell is a hard subject, and it is a scary subject.
> 
> If there's one thing I know from scripture, it's that God is just and righteous. He will never ever punish anyone more than they deserve. The only possibility other than getting exactly what you deserve is getting grace.
> 
> ...


If the person did not want anything to do with God and the Christians while alive here on earth, would not Heaven for all eternity around God and His people be like Hell to them?


----------



## Tom Hart (Jun 19, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> If the person did not want anything to do with God and the Christians while alive here on earth, would not Heaven for all eternity around God and His people be like Hell to them?



I would imagine that being grumpy in heaven would still be better than suffering for eternity the fiery torment of hell. (Of course the very idea is nonsense.)


----------



## De Jager (Jun 19, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> If the person did not want anything to do with God and the Christians while alive here on earth, would not Heaven for all eternity around God and His people be like Hell to them?



I have no idea, but no unregenerate, unjustified person will ever enter heaven so the question doesn't matter a whole lot (no offense intended).

Regardless, those who live on earth without God will still find Hell much worse, because any semblance of common grace will be withheld; furthermore, I believe the scriptures teach that those in hell will endure active punishment.

It is called a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth for a reason.


----------



## Ask Mr. Religion (Jun 19, 2018)

De Jager said:


> Also keep in mind that the Bible teaches that the unconverted soul does not seek God and glories in sin. In hell, such a soul would still be unconverted. Such a soul, even in hell would not seek God, and at most would be seeking for a reprieve from their torment, and would not actually repent. Refer to the story of the rich man and lazarus.


Persons in Hell may be full of _regret_, but not _repentance_. They continue to shake their fists upward at God with teeth clenched, sinning always, hence the retributive eternal punishment of God is more than justified. If anyone in Hell truly repented, they would admit that they are exactly where they need to be. In that one sense, the gates of Hell are locked from the inside.


----------



## Ask Mr. Religion (Jun 19, 2018)

AJAY said:


> Why did God allow the human race to continue after Adam sinned when he knew what the end would be from beginning, ie that *most people* would end up in hell for all eternity.



On the matter of the "most people" assumption, Warfield provides a counter view in the attached.


----------



## Gforce9 (Jun 19, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> What is the bare Calvinist position, would it be subscribing to say just TULIP for Sotierology?



Generally speaking, yes. In the category, I would put YRR, New Calvinism, non-confessional Baptists. Any system, group, or individual that igores or rejects a Reformed Ecclesiology.


----------



## Dachaser (Jun 19, 2018)

Tom Hart said:


> I would imagine that being grumpy in heaven would still be better than suffering for eternity the fiery torment of hell. (Of course the very idea is nonsense.)


hell is closed off from inside it though


De Jager said:


> I have no idea, but no unregenerate, unjustified person will ever enter heaven so the question doesn't matter a whole lot (no offense intended).
> 
> Regardless, those who live on earth without God will still find Hell much worse, because any semblance of common grace will be withheld; furthermore, I believe the scriptures teach that those in hell will endure active punishment.
> 
> It is called a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth for a reason.


The worst aspect will be devoid of the presence of God totally and forever, for they will be left to stew in their own darkness and sins forever.
Cannot ever imagine a place where no light/good ever exists, totally dark and evil...


----------



## earl40 (Jun 19, 2018)

Ask Mr. Religion said:


> On the matter of the "most people" assumption, Warfield provides a counter view in the attached.



Does Warfield or anybody else deal with the Book of Revelation and its suggestion of the multitudes who are dealt with?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Ask Mr. Religion (Jun 19, 2018)

earl40 said:


> Does Warfield or anybody else deal with the Book of Revelation and its suggestion of the multitudes who are dealt with?


Yes, he does so in the aforementioned attached paper.

See also Boettner:
https://graceonlinelibrary.org/esch...f-the-redeemed-multitude-by-loraine-boettner/

Spurgeon:
https://www.spurgeongems.org/vols58-60/chs3403.pdf

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Ben Mordecai (Jun 30, 2018)

Dachaser said:


> They hold to the Unlimited Atonement viewpoint?



Yes they do, but I have trouble telling heads or tails of it.


----------

