# Southern Baptists: "Pull your kids out of public school



## Bladestunner316 (May 4, 2004)

If I wanted to get married and have kids I would home school.

blade


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## Dan.... (May 4, 2004)

:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Christopher (May 5, 2004)

WOW! Cool.


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## twogunfighter (May 5, 2004)

If all the members of the SBC were to pull their kids out of the public school in the south then the public system would crumble.


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## staythecourse (May 5, 2004)

I can't agree,

I have decided already that it would not be healthy for my children to live in that much of a sheltered environment. I survived - I want to be a preacher - the school system would crumble - we through our children would not be the salt and light we should. It's over-reacting to a bad situation.


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## George Bailey (May 5, 2004)

Bryan,
I disagree with your disagreement...first, our children aren't to be warriors. We don't send them into any kind of battle, until they are adults. I do believe that a child can be &quot;salt and light&quot;, but we shouldn't be putting them on the front lines for that purpose. I don't see any scriptural precedant for it. 

I think that just like the Roman church was in the 16th century, so is today's Gov't school system...sometimes, institutions are &quot;too far gone&quot; to reform from the inside. 

Also, I'm not willing to sacrifice my Children to &quot;support&quot; the Gov't school system.

There are dozens of good reasons to Homeschool...and 0 good reasons to leave your child in Gov't school. I challenge anyone to show an advantage that Gov't school has over homeschooling.


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## Mary (May 5, 2004)

[quote:f9adad5384]
When torture and execution have failed, our enemy has turned to educating us and our children away from our faith.
[/quote:f9adad5384]

OK, it's not really off the subject, it's just a small tangent. When I was in college, we read a short story in French class. It was about the German invasion of France (during the Franco-Prussian War?) and how the Germans were going to force the French to learn German. There were going to be no more French classes. Well, on the last day, the school was jammed with people who wanted to be taught everything they could about their language, before it was taken away from them. And the teacher said, &quot;Tous les jours, on se dit, 'Bah. J'ai bien les temps. J'apprendrai demain.' Et puis on va se qui arrive.&quot; Which basically says, &quot;Everyday, you said, 'Bah. I have plenty of time. I will learn it tomorrow.' And now you see what has arrived.&quot; (Although the translation isn't so pretty as the French.)

My point is that it is an old and time-honored custom to &quot;educate&quot; people into the mindset of those in power. Or, as Hitler said to the Germans who opposed him, &quot;You can fight me all you want. I already have your children.&quot; And those children were literally fighting for him at the end of the war. 

I don't know whether home-schooling is the answer or not. I don't have children, so I'm not caught in the battle.

I do remember about a month ago when the 6 year old little girl came home from school with a school library book about gay marriage. And this was in the Bible belt! (One of the Carolinas, I think.)

There was a story a few years ago about YOUNG girls being given gynecological exams at school. No notice to the parents, no permission slips. They didn't even tell the girls what was going to happen. These types of things make me wonder about public schools. They don't have the money for music, art or gym, but they have the money for that!

Mary


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## sundoulos (May 5, 2004)

I alternately home-schooled and public-schooled my children. Homeschooling is not the cure-all, although you do have a lot more control. I home-schooled both in Washington State and in California. California would not recognize my home-schooling although they allowed it (I had to register my home school each year) because my courses of study for my sons was not submitted to them for state approval. Because of that , neither of my sons has a high-school diploma. My younger son did receive a GED certificate on his first try (not the easiest test to pass).

One of the reasons I took my sons out of public school was sociological rather than pedagogic. My younger son's attitude and behavoir changed drastically for the worse over a period of two weeks. When I inquired as to the cause the school psychologist told me it was because he was being given assertiveness training (at age seven or eight). He told us his teachers said we couldn't make him work, couldn't discipline him, couldn't make him do anything he didn't want to do. He was also told to tell us what he thought in no uncertain terms if he didn't like our treatment of him.

That was almost twenty years ago. Now, with revisionism in full swing, with human sexuality taught from a purely hedonistic perspective, etc., etc. I wouldn't risk putting a child into such an environment.


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## Radar (May 5, 2004)

*If this "boycott" succeeds...*

...then I would fully expect the government to respond by outlawing home schooling as best it can. Which would be frustrating to the nth degree, because home schooling is in my plans for my children.

Private Christian schools would then have to drastically reduce their tuition for most of these kids to go there. 

I would expect the gov't to intervene.

I would not expect Christian schools to sacrafice profits.

Thus, many may end up being stuck as the underground/grassroots home schooling movement gets thrust into the public spotlight like this.

Maybe?


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## Craig (May 5, 2004)

Bryan-
I would have agreed with you a few years ago...I can't, though.

Public schools do indoctrinate (they don't teach): and what they are indoctrinating is not knowledge....they are demoralizing our children. The reason I don't want to send my kids to a public school (when I'm given children, that is) is not to keep them from the children at school, rather, the horrible leadership and &quot;teachers&quot;.

I know of people homeshooling that have this sort of &quot;alliance&quot; where their kids are interacting with, and learning with other children. At my church, the largest family there homeschools and their kids are VERY active. More active than I was. They are doing music...musicals, stuff like that. They can interact with kids just like other kids...but they can also talk with adults in an adult manner.

My point is: homeshooling is only &quot;sheltering&quot; at the points YOU make it. I know many are overly sheltered, but you know what...I don't want my kids to lose their moral compass in homosexual sex ed. When they look at a cucumber, I want them to see a cucumber!


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## Len (May 5, 2004)

&quot;My point is: homeshooling is only &quot;sheltering&quot; at the points YOU make it.&quot;

I think it was R. C. Sproul Jr. who responded to the charge that he was sheltering his children - &quot;Yeah - and I feed and clothe them too!&quot;


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## Preach (May 5, 2004)

I encourage everyone to search the Scriptures on this issue. Read the following books: &quot;Rediscovering the lost tools of learning&quot; by Doug Wilson (especially the Dorothy Sayers article in the back); and &quot;Philosophy of Christian education&quot; by Gordon Clark.
For those on the board who support the sending of covenant children to the public schools, I would be interested in a Biblical argument for that position. Thanks all.


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## pastorway (May 5, 2004)

Another good book that will open your eyes to the foundations of what is wrong in government schools is the book [i:8a152128c6]Persecution[/i:8a152128c6] by David Limbaugh. The subtitle is &quot;How Liberals are Waging War Against Christianity.&quot;

I was already convinced that we will homeschool any children God gives us, and our church very strongly supports and encourages home school and Christian school families. When I read this book I was just amazed at the things going on in teh classroom. Of course the nightly news gives us good reason to want to shelter our kids too! The battle brewing here locally is over a school that is refusing to allow same sex couples to the prom. They are being sued of course, but the news interviewed all the homosexual and &quot;bi-sexual&quot; teenagers that feel they are being &quot;discriminated&quot; against.

Do you really want your kids in the thick of all the sexual perversion, atheistic humanistic philosophy, etc etc?

Phillip


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## Puritan Sailor (May 5, 2004)

Seeing that this need is so great to preserve our children from the onslaught on the public school ideologies, how many churches do you think will help families, in particular, poor families, to help them eduacte their children too? That really is the only reason why I could think a parent would leave their children in public schools. They don't have the money to put their kids in private school, and maybe they don't have the smarts or the time to homeschool. If the SBC is going to adopt this measure (which I certainly don't object to) then they had better be ready to help all their families to be able to fulfill such an edict. Otherwise, you're just telling poor parents they must stop sinning (sending their kids to pubic school) and not giving them the means to do so. 

As for a feared reaction from the state? I really don't think that will happen in today's political climate. At least not yet. Most people do understand that the public schools are lost. Most people do recognize that home and private school students do better academically and socially. I think there would be significant backlash against any politicians who punished home and private schoolers in that way.


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## pastorway (May 5, 2004)

As a former SBCer (up until 7 years ago) I do not believe that the SBC will pass this measure. 

I hope they do, but doubt they will.

Phillip


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## Philip A (May 6, 2004)

Just a reminder:

[quote:d4101d8225]
[u:d4101d8225]2LBCF 1689 Chapter 21:2[/u:d4101d8225]
God alone is Lord of the conscience, and hath left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men which are in any thing contrary to his word, or not contained in it. So that to believe such doctrines, or obey such commands out of conscience, is to betray true liberty of conscience; and the requiring of an implicit faith, an absolute and blind obedience, is to destroy liberty of conscience and reason also.
[/quote:d4101d8225]

Let me get this out of the way, I will most certainly not put my children in public school (Lord willing that I have them), but that is not the point. What does the SBC think it is, and where does it think it got this supposed authority? :flaming:


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## panicbird (May 6, 2004)

On the one hand, one could say that the SBC (of which I am a member) should be careful in its wording, so as not to bind the consciouses of its members. On the other hand, one could say that sending one's children to public school is unbiblical, the teaching of children being the responsibility of the parent and the content of much public school teaching being very much un- and anti-biblical.

If the second route is taken, then I wholeheartedly agree that Southern Baptist churches must be prepared to help parents in this regard.

Lon


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## twogunfighter (May 6, 2004)

9:9

The SBC has 16 million members mainly in the south. I would say that half of the kids in public school where I grew up (rural GA) were children of SBC members. If those pulled out of the system many schools in AL, MS, GA, and TN would not be able to field a football team, ergo school would collapse.  Seriously, the SBC has enough members in the south to cause closure of many schools due to lack of participation if they left. If SBC members wanted to defund the schools through their vote it may be possible in some districts and states. 

Chuck


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## Dan.... (May 6, 2004)

[quote:f9a4d59fbd]
Philip A said:


Just a reminder: 


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2LBCF 1689 Chapter 21:2 
God alone is Lord of the conscience, and hath left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men which are in any thing contrary to his word, or not contained in it. So that to believe such doctrines, or obey such commands out of conscience, is to betray true liberty of conscience; and the requiring of an implicit faith, an absolute and blind obedience, is to destroy liberty of conscience and reason also. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Let me get this out of the way, I will most certainly not put my children in public school (Lord willing that I have them), but that is not the point. What does the SBC think it is, and where does it think it got this supposed authority? 

[/quote:f9a4d59fbd]

Philip,

Whether one should send his children to an institution that will indoctrinate them in secular humanism is not a matter of Christian liberty. It is sin. It is a clear violation of the Biblical mandate to train up one's children in the fear and admonition of the Lord.

As Christian parents we are obligated to raise our children in the fear of the Lord. If we choose to send our children to be indoctrinated in humanism, we are responsible what what they learn. 

We do not have Christian liberty to disobey God, as says also the very next section in the confession that you quoted:

[quote:f9a4d59fbd]
They who upon pretence of Christian liberty do practice any sin, or cherish any sinful lust, as they do thereby pervert the main design of the grace of the gospel to their own destruction, so they wholly destroy the end of Christian liberty, which is, that being delivered out of the hands of all our enemies, we might serve the Lord without fear, in holiness and righeousness before Him, all the days of our lives. 
[/quote:f9a4d59fbd]

[Edited on 5-6-2004 by Dan....]


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## sundoulos (May 6, 2004)

Philip A wrote:
[quote:5e285258b2]
What does the SBC think it is, and where does it think it got this supposed authority? 
[/quote:5e285258b2]

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with how the SBC works. The SBC has no authority at all, except as granted to it by its member churches. It has no authority to tell any church or individual to do anything. 

Resolutions are just that -- resolutions. Resolutions are not bindingn (unless they are &quot;binding resolutions&quot. They reflect the mentality of a body. They call for voluntary compliance.

9:9, the originator of this thread wrote: &quot;the resolution asks 'all officers and members of the Southern Baptist Convention and the churches associated with it to remove their children from the government schools and see to it that they receive a thoroughly Christian education, for the glory of God, the good of Christ's church, and the strength of their own commitment to Jesus.'&quot; Note the word &quot;asks.&quot; This seems to me to be most proper.


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## refbaptdude (May 6, 2004)

*Church Discipline and Public Education*

Philip,

You said having your children in public schools was a sin.

What about a public university?

What about public school teachers or Prof.'s, are they sinners by contributing to this sin?

Therefore we should exercise church discipline on all parents who send their children to public schools and universities, right? And we should exercise discipline on any teachers or Prof.'s right?

And any single parents or low-income parents the church needs to subsidize their schooling and college, right?

RBDude


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## refbaptdude (May 6, 2004)

*My apologizes*

Sorry Philp it was Dan who said that public education was a sin.

My apologizes,
RBDude


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## Dan.... (May 6, 2004)

[quote:71124d1fd1]
Church Discipline and Public Education

{Dan}, 

You said having your children in public schools was a sin. 
[/quote:71124d1fd1]

If by this you mean, sending your children to humanists to be indoctrinated in humanism, then yes, such is sin. It is sin because it violates the commandment to raise one's children in the admonition of the Lord (Eph 6:4; Deut 6:7).

[quote:71124d1fd1]
What about a public university? 
[/quote:71124d1fd1]

If, as an adult, they choose to attend a public university, that is their responsibilty. Personally, I would not recommend that my children go to a humanistic university. I have a moral obligation to raise my children in the admonition of the Lord, diligently teaching them the commandments of the Lord, and any failure to so do is sin.


[quote:71124d1fd1]
What about public school teachers or Prof.'s, are they sinners by contributing to this sin? 
[/quote:71124d1fd1]

First, yes, they are sinners by nature. However, they have a moral responsibility to teach truth. If they do not present the lies of humanism as being lies, then yes, they are sinning. (They may lose their jobs for teaching the truth, but that will not harm them (eternally), and as Christians, they should expect persecution).

[quote:71124d1fd1]
Therefore we should exercise church discipline on all parents who send their children to public schools and universities, right? And we should exercise discipline on any teachers or Prof.'s right?
[/quote:71124d1fd1]

I am in no position to judge the local churches, nor the specific circumstances - they answer to God. I will say, however, that a faithful local church does practice discipline. Also, before practicing discipline, is the church doing its best to help the parent to obey the commandments? Are they helping the widows to train up their children in the fear of the Lord? 

[quote:71124d1fd1]
And any single parents or low-income parents the church needs to subsidize their schooling and college, right? 
[/quote:71124d1fd1]

Of course it depends on the particular circumstances. Is the parent doing all that they can to insure that he/she is raising his children in the fear of the Lord? Are they counting the cost? etc...

If one has to live on bread and peanut butter to afford to educate his/her children in the fear of the Lord apart from humanistic school system, it is worth it. It is better to obey.



Also, &quot;refbaptdude&quot; - please include the following in your signature(you can edit your signature in your profile, or at the top of this page in the quick edit) :

Full name
Name of Church
Location.

Thanks,

[Edited on 5-6-2004 by Dan....]


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## raderag (May 6, 2004)

This is something our church started a few years back.

http://www.cityschooltexas.com/distinctives.htm


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## raderag (May 6, 2004)

[quote:f21b26f488]
And any single parents or low-income parents the church needs to subsidize their schooling and college, right? 
[/quote:f21b26f488]

I think the church should take a more proactive role, especially with the poor.


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## Augusta (May 6, 2004)

[quote:3ad9ecf4b4]
I encourage everyone to search the Scriptures on this issue. Read the following books: &quot;Rediscovering the lost tools of learning&quot; by Doug Wilson (especially the Dorothy Sayers article in the back); and &quot;Philosophy of Christian education&quot; by Gordon Clark. 
[/quote:3ad9ecf4b4]

Preach I have not read that book but I have read Dorothy Sayers speech which is probably what was in the back of the book. You guys should really read it here if you never have. It is amazing how she could have said it all today and it applies to our current problems probably ten fold. Her article inspired me to quit using my current homeschool curriculum and give my children a classical eduction based on the trivium. I found a wonderfully comprehensive site on how to do this here Our kids today in public school are not being taught to learn and think for themselves. The public school system is based on a communist model that keeps them in line. They need to be taught critical thinking skills and logic. And they need to be taught In my humble opinion their own language inside and out along side latin. Because words mean things and you can change a civilization by messing with its language. Its like Richard Mitchell said --&quot;An education that does not teach clear, coherent writing cannot provide our world with thoughtful adults; it gives us instead, at the best, clever children of all ages.&quot; I have been homeschooling for 3 years now. I just could never in good conscience send my kids to school for mostly political reasons but also character reasons. I want my kids to be influenced first and foremost by the father and I. We can't very well do that with them gone most of the day. Not to mention all of the twaddle they learn there from a political standpoint.


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## refbaptdude (May 6, 2004)

*Church Discipline and Public Education*

Dan,

So at your church Grace Reformed Baptist Church, Rockford, IL (A.R.B.C.A.) you guys practice church discipline upon members whose children are in public school or if they enroll their children in a public university? 

I would also take it that your church would not let anyone become a member that had children in public schools or in a public university unless they repented of this sin. 

So anyone connected with public education could not become a member of your church, because it is a sin, like teachers or Prof.'s, etc. right?

Dan, can anyone connected with the secular humanistic US government join your church, military, public servants, etc?

Just wondering,
Refbaptdude


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## Radar (May 6, 2004)

[quote:4140715abe]Can anyone connected with the secular humanistic US government join your church?[/quote:4140715abe]

Reworded: &quot;Can anyone connected with the secular humanistic Roman Empire join your church?&quot;

Result: Excommunicate the Apostle Paul! 

I would agree with Dan. Concerning resistance of our grossly sinful culture, the Lord has many things to say to His people, but some aren't ready to bear them now. That's why people are built up by teachers, to grow into knowing what they need to know. A position against secular indoctrination of our kids does not result in an immediate refusal of new members who don't see that yet.


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## FrozenChosen (May 6, 2004)

*Jumbled Opinions*

1) Christian schools aren't much better without an authority base. I've seen the school I graduated from become very secular in all but the name. When we promote Christian private, Christian classical, or home school education we must be prepared to EDUCATE and DISCIPLINE, but these should not be a shock to the student. Education and discipline should begin in the home, so that a student in one of these types of schools should not be thrust into a difficult situation as far as operations.

2) Christian educations should teach several kinds of faith-building courses, and each teacher should be well-versed in theology and apologetics so as to handle student challenges (which should be encouraged) concerning faith issues. Personally, the Christian school I went to did not supply this whatsoever, and if you want to look at my graduating class you will see more worthless wordly behavior than godly lifestyles. God is given lipservice, that's it.

3) Educational institutions should be involved with churches, so as to emphasize the importance of the church in life. 

Sorry, I haven't read the entire thread yet. I was just thinking of the fact that the SBC needs to provide alternatives for public education, and kind of brainstormed some points they need to look at for a decent education. Just as in an unjust war in the name of God, flawed education in the name of God can be a spiritual catastrophe.


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## Scott Bushey (May 6, 2004)

RefBaptDude,
Your posting privileges have been temporarily revoked until that time you adhere to what the moderator has suggested.

SPB

[Edited on 5-6-2004 by Scott Bushey]


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## pastorway (May 6, 2004)

I am still looking for the quote that states that every church should discipline any members that send their kids to public school. I guess I missed that one???

How do we apply the idea of being in the world but not of the world to schooling our kids?

PW


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## Dan.... (May 6, 2004)

[quote:49c6013040]
Concerning resistance of our grossly sinful culture, the Lord has many things to say to His people, but some aren't ready to bear them now. That's why people are built up by teachers, to grow into knowing what they need to know. A position against secular indoctrination of our kids does not result in an immediate refusal of new members who don't see that yet. 
[/quote:49c6013040]

Very well said.:thumbup::thumbup:

God has ordered that His people should grow up in Him in all things (Eph 4:15). This He accomplishes in His churches through the gift of pastors and teachers who are given to perfect, minister to, and edify the body of Christ, until we all arrive at the unity of the faith (Eph 4:11-13).

To arrive at this unity, the church of Jesus Christ must not ignore the sinfulness of the world around us and the effect that it has on our members.

It is a good thing that some within the SBC have identified that today's public education system has become a tool of the enemy to steal away our children. It is a good thing that they are seeking to call upon their member-parents to remove their children from this humanistic system that works against the parents in their role of teaching their children diligently to keep the Lord's commandments. And it is a good thing for them to confront (out of sincere love) those within the church who will not heed the warning.

That is not to say that everyone who is not pulling their children away from humanism must necessarily be thrown out of the church or be not allowed membership. Each must be worked with diligently that they may see the error of such a decision. However, discipline may indeed be necessary for those who would be particularly obstinate against the authority of the elders and of the scriptures.

Each particular sitiuation should be worked through with much wisdom, as the church of Jesus Christ cannot ignore sin.

[Edited on 5-7-2004 by Dan....]


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## ABondSlaveofChristJesus (Aug 9, 2004)

I never had any enounters with humanism and I've recently graduated High School.


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## fredtgreco (Aug 9, 2004)

What type of high school?

Did you ever consider that being in the school you were in prevented you from seeing humanism?


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## Ranger (Aug 9, 2004)

When the Lord finally blesses my wife and I with kids (Lord haste the day!), we will most likely send them to public or private school. My wife is a teacher, and would still spend hours a day after school raising the children up in the truth to supplement their other education if they went to public school.

As far as the SBC is concerned, I live in Plano, TX and can think of at least 5 SBC churches in our town with over a 2000 person membership (one being Prestonwood with over 15,000). I know our public school system would crumble if we all pulled our children out. I think it would be affected even if just my church did where we have at least 600 students in public schools.

It would be fun to watch if the congregations of SBC churches actually listened to their leadership (which hasn't happened in over 100 years).


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## ABondSlaveofChristJesus (Aug 9, 2004)

[quote:be7a462cd6="fredtgreco"]What type of high school?

Did you ever consider that being in the school you were in prevented you from seeing humanism?[/quote:be7a462cd6]

It was public... and can you elaborate on your last question?

The teachers never discussed humanism, and while there could of been students who were humanist, I never had any friends that were.


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## SmokingFlax (Aug 9, 2004)

BondSlave...

I have to say...I'm having a REAL hard time believing that you attended a public high school and have not been saturated with the humanistic paradigm.

Not to be offensive but, are you sure that you know what humanism is? The teachers never discussed humanism because (as in my experience) they themselves simply assume that theirs is the correct and/or normative position. The devil doesn't usually appear in a red suit with horns and a tail saying 'I'm the devil!' ...does he?

Also, the older I get and the more I look at the situation, I'm not convinced that most teachers are even aware of their own philosophical basis but are rather so engrossed in their own particulars and specialization that they aren't even aware of what tree they've built their nest in.


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## WrittenFromUtopia (Aug 9, 2004)

I graduated High School without encountering any humanistic viewpoints being shoved down my throat. Now, college was another thing...


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## ABondSlaveofChristJesus (Aug 10, 2004)

I know what humanism is. I was never taught it directly.


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## Ranger (Aug 10, 2004)

I've been out of high school for seven years, but I went to a public school, knew what secular humanism was and was never accustomed to it. They didn't assume that we all agreed with humanism either, if anything they knew that the majority of us at least professed Christ. I went to Plano Senior High School and never had a problem. I don't ever remember hearing about evolution, and my wife just said that the only time her teacher talked about it, they said how much they hated it and disagreed with it and then rushed through that section.

I mean, we weren't taught about Christ in school either, but it wasn't the way ya'll seem to portray it as.


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## SmokingFlax (Aug 11, 2004)

Wow (Kyle)...it must be a southern thing 'cause back east it's totally secular. Which is to say that it's not for Christ. I can even recall a certain teacher getting the boot because he was witnessing to a student. Don't let the ACLU in on this!


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## Ex Nihilo (Aug 12, 2004)

I have to agree that Southern public schools probably aren't as bad on the humanism. Most of the teachers at my school were professing Christians, and I, like Kyle, was never actually taught evolution. The problem is significantly reduced by the fact that the teachers are not particular humanistic (though I'd argue that most Americans are to an extent, whether they realize it or not)... but there was still a problem in the form of textbooks. 

Of course, I still wouldn't want to send my (nonexistent) children to a public school. My school might not have indoctrinated me in the ways of humanism (though television probably did), but it didn't provide a very good education, either. And "not being that bad" isn't quite enough for me on the worldview point. It isn't quite good enough that the children aren't getting a full-blown humanistic worldview. I think a completely Christ-centered curriculum is what we ought to seek and what I would want for my children if it were at all possible.


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## SmokingFlax (Aug 12, 2004)

Yes (Ex Nihilo)...

it's that creeping and pervasive humanistic framework that I'm referring to as well. 

Noone ever really said "This is humanism...blah, blah, blah" to me when I was in High School (that I can recall) either. But after I was saved it was like I could all of the sudden see the man behind the curtain in the land of Oz. Just by the fact that God was not positively included in the educational framework presupposes that He has nothing to say about it or, is somehow "neutral" in this sphere.


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