# Pruned Sabbath Do's and Don'ts



## Scott1

*Moderatorial Note: This thread has been reduced in size and opened for discussion on the practical topic of what you do and don't do in order to keep the 4th commandment. Stay on topic, and stay polite, or be blocked from participation on this thread.

Your Tyrannical Moderator,

Ruben*



By God's grace, I look to the Ten Commandments as a "rule for life," including the Fourth Commandment. While I have not kept it perfectly, I have found great blessing in obedience.

I am wondering what you understand to be generally prohibited practices on the Lord's Day. I say "generally" to allow exception for doing these things when they come about by way of necessity and mercy. 

In this thread, I would prefer to focus on how the Commandment is practically observed. 

*Can you ordinarily do these things on the Lord's Day and not violate the Fourth Commandment?* 

*(answer yes/no/not sure to each and if you care to, give a scriptural reason). *

1) eating out at restaurants while traveling away from home
2) eating out at restaurants while not traveling
3) watching sports on television or internet
4) taking a nap
5) getting money out of an ATM 
6) playing light recreation sports outside
7) playing heavy recreation sports outside
8) pleasure driving in the countryside
9) having an outdoor picnic with wine and radio on
10) regularly scheduling your work on Sundays if you are a fireman

PS In closing the thread, I'll give my understanding of each- a couple of these I'm thinking through now and am interested in how you all would apply Scripture.


----------



## ColdSilverMoon

Scott1 said:


> By God's grace, I look to the Ten Commandments as a "rule for life," including the Fourth Commandment. While I have not kept it perfectly, I have found great blessing in obedience.
> 
> I am wondering what you understand to be generally prohibited practices on the Lord's Day. I say "generally" to allow exception for doing these things when they come about by way of necessity and mercy.
> 
> In this thread, I would prefer to not get into a general discussion about the nature of the sabbath but to concentrate on how it applies, and how do we practically observe it.
> 
> *Can you ordinarily do these things on the Lord's Day and not violate the Fourth Commandment?* (answer yes/no/not sure and if you care to, give a scriptural reason).
> 
> 
> 1) eating out at restaurants while traveling away from home
> 2) eating out at restaurants while not traveling
> 3) watching sports on television or internet
> 4) taking a nap
> 5) getting money out of an ATM
> 6) playing light recreation sports outside
> 7) playing heavy recreation sports outside
> 8) pleasure driving in the countryside
> 9) having an outdoor picnic with wine and radio on
> 10) regularly scheduling your work on Sundays if you are a fireman



I would say all of those things are permissible, unless it is at all possible to get out of working Sundays as a fireman. That being said, the Lord's Day should have worship and fellowship as the priorities, and none of of those activities listed above should be done at their expense.


----------



## Pergamum

I would see all these things as permissible, if proper worship was not left out on this day.


----------



## Pergamum

And, if one is a fireman, than even the lack of proper worship is permissible because fires don't merely happen on non-church hours.


----------



## ericfromcowtown

The only one on this list that I try to avoid on a Sunday is #2, eating out. There have been exceptions, though, and I think context is important.


----------



## Pergamum

Eric: Yes, I agree. Even when not travelling, there are cases of need at times.


----------



## Jie-Huli

Scott1 said:


> *Can you ordinarily do these things on the Lord's Day and not violate the Fourth Commandment?* (answer yes/no/not sure and if you care to, give a scriptural reason).
> 
> 
> 1) eating out at restaurants while traveling away from home
> 2) eating out at restaurants while not traveling
> 3) watching sports on television or internet
> 4) taking a nap
> 5) getting money out of an ATM
> 6) playing light recreation sports outside
> 7) playing heavy recreation sports outside
> 8) pleasure driving in the countryside
> 9) having an outdoor picnic with wine and radio on
> 10) regularly scheduling your work on Sundays if you are a fireman



I've not time to write at length, but just in answer to the above:

1) No --- this would be causing others to work on the Sabbath, which the Fourth Commandment forbids. When away from home, I do the same thing I do when I am at home . . . purchase whatever victuals I will need on the preceding Saturday (and even if passing the Sabbath in a place without normal cooking facilities, one can have ready bread and butter, fruit and other such foods which require no preparation).

2) No --- For the reasons outlined above.

3) No --- For we are to put aside all works and recreations, even those which may legitimately be done the other six days of the week, and give the day wholly unto the things of God, works of true necessity and mercy only excepted.

4) Yes, I believe naps certainly may be taken if needed to keep us fresh for the other duties and devotions of the day, though I should think moderation and watchfulness would be needed to ensure it did not become a habit of wiling away precious Sabbath hours in an unspiritual frame. 

5) No --- The use of these machines requires their upkeep and re-filling on the Sabbath, which will require others to work most unnecessarily, as this may surely be done other days of the week.

6) No --- Reasoning as per (3) above.

7) No --- Reasoning as per (3) above.

8) I generally would not, though I am not sure I could state this particular one as an absolute. The day should be given wholly unto God, and so surely a pleasure drive which is nothing more than that would not be appropriate; if it were, however, used as a time of meditation upon God and upon His works, I would not see it as prohibited (so long as it did not necessitate re-filling the car with petrol, of course).

9) No --- Again, the day belongs wholly unto God, and so normal recreations which may be done the other days of the week should not be done on this day. There would be nothing wrong with eating outdoors any more than eating indoors, but the same standards would apply that all the time should be spent in devotion unto God and in spiritual conversation, and so playing the radio would not be appropriate.

10) A fireman's work is a true work of necessity, and so Scripture (and consequently our reformed confessions) allows for this to be attended to legitimately on the Sabbath. Of course I am sure a godly fireman would do all he could to ensure the rota did not take him away from the public worship too many times consecutively; and he would also strive to keep the day holy even while sitting at the fire station, and would not treat it the same as other work days.

I am sorry that the above may look somewhat blunt as I do not have time to write at length. The great positive blessings and joys of a well-spent Sabbath should always be kept at the forefront of our thoughts when discussing these matters, but at the same time I do think it very useful to discuss the practical applications (such as those you have brought up), since it is in practical ways that our obedience will be manifested and the blessings thereof enjoyed.

Kind regards,

Jie-Huli


----------



## Augusta

Yes, only because you may not have any other way not being at home. 1) eating out at restaurants while traveling away from home
No 2) eating out at restaurants while not traveling
No 3) watching sports on television or internet
Yes 4) taking a nap
? 5) getting money out of an ATM 
No 6) playing light recreation sports outside
No 7) playing heavy recreation sports outside
? 8) pleasure driving in the countryside
No 9) having an outdoor picnic with wine and radio on
* 10) regularly scheduling your work on Sundays if you are a fireman
*Are you at liberty not to schedule it on Sundays?

I put ? marks where it would depend on the circumstances. If the drive is just for your own pleasure then no. Is the cash to buy and sell on the Sabbath then no. If for giving to the church then yes. The days is reserved to be kept holy and unto God. This means setting aside our regular pastimes and keeping the day wholly unto God.

KJV Isaiah 58:13-14
13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: 

14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.


----------



## Pergamum

Some examples of permissible actions on the Sabbath:


1) eating out at restaurants while traveling away from home

Travelling preachers or missionaries have to eat, soldiers too...etc. Hard to pack a cooler everywhere.


2) eating out at restaurants while not traveling

Family member is ill and you have to watch them or their kids. Need or emergency arises that is not mere frivolous time-spending. Fridge goes out and all meat spoils. HUndreds of such scenarios warrant that we at least acknowledge that permissible cases exist.


3) watching sports on television or internet

One can rest on the Sabbath. 



4) taking a nap

Body needs rest.



5) getting money out of an ATM 

The thing is on whether you use it or not and often it is a need.



6) playing light recreation sports outside

Family bonding or health benefits.



7) playing heavy recreation sports outside

Family bonding or health benefits.



8) pleasure driving in the countryside

See God's creation.


9) having an outdoor picnic with wine and radio on

Gotta eat. Why not enjoy it?



10) regularly scheduling your work on Sundays if you are a fireman

All workers want weekends off. Pleading special religious cases to get a disproportionate amount of weekends off is akin to sniveling. If soldiers and firemen have to be on duty then all should take equal shares of weekend duty.



As far as recreation goes; obviously this is a matter of conviction. I see no negative injunctions in the NT about the Sabbath...it's not even called the Sabbath anyway but is called the Lord's Day and the positive command to worship is given and not forsake our assembling. 

If we do not allow tv or light sports, then neither can we allow for the reading of any fiction or anything for leisure that is not bible related. We cannot even allow walking in the woods unless we pay or make an effort to ponder the Creator. We simply cannot rest or be at leisure on our day of rest if we have to do nothing but pray or read the Bible.


Every Sunday we play with our kids extra, if tired take a nap and I go for a jog every Sunday. Once corporate worship is finished, we use the day to recharge our batteries. The day should not be a straight jacket; a "holy resting all that day" does not rule out recreation, which IS a form of mental rest and bodily recuperation.


----------



## Jie-Huli

Greetings again,

We must be absolutely clear on the first principles and then apply them to specific situations methodically, or else these discussions can just go around in circles (in a way most confusing to outside observers). The first principles on the Sabbath Day are very well summarised in paragraphs 7 and 8 of Chapter 21 of the Westminster Confession of Faith (the 1689 Baptist Confession being essentially identical on this point), with the crux being: "This Sabbath is to be kept holy unto the Lord when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all the day from their own works, words, and thoughts about their wordly employments and recreations, but also are taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of His worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy." 

This is the traditional reformed understanding of the teaching of the Scriptures on the Christian Sabbath, and when this teaching is rightly grasped, there can surely be no controversy on most of the specific matters raised in the opening post. So if one wants to argue that most of those things are permissible on the Sabbath, he should admit that this is actually because he does not accept the traditional reformed teaching on the subject . . . he disagrees with the first principles and, thus, no wonder that he comes to different conclusions on the specifics. It is not just a question of application, and it should not be insinuated that the traditional teaching itself leads one to a quagmire of difficulties of application. In fact, the traditional teaching presents to us the utmost clarity and a blessed straightforwardness which is to our great benefit.

With that in mind, I am not attempting to make any personal statements below, but simply wish to respond to some of the hypotheticals raised as I appreciate that many who read these threads (particularly those new to an understanding of the Sabbath) may be influenced by them at a very practical level.



Pergamum said:


> Some examples of permissible actions on the Sabbath:
> 
> 
> 1) eating out at restaurants while traveling away from home
> 
> Travelling preachers or missionaries have to eat, soldiers too...etc. Hard to pack a cooler everywhere.



I think the supposed difficulties on this issue are largely manufactured. I have been away from home on the Sabbath many a time, and there is not the slightest inconvenience in procuring a limited number of non-perishable provisions on the Saturday to take one through the Sabbath. There are all sorts of foods that require neither preparation nor a "cooler" if the facilities are not available --- bread, scones, butter, bananas, apples (and many other fruits and vegetables), cured meats, tuna, marmite . . . the list could be endless, but the point is that there is clearly no "necessity" in eating out while travelling, as long as we conscientiously order our affairs beforehand.



> 3) watching sports on television or internet
> 
> One can rest on the Sabbath.



The "rest" of the Sabbath should not be equated with common amusements, but is a complete spiritual rest from the works and recreations which take up so much of our time the rest of the week. Watching sports is obviously not a work of necessity or mercy and, thus, the Confession (based on the Scriptures) is clear that it is not properly done on the Sabbath. Let me quote the Puritan Thomas Vincent on this point (which would apply to playing sports as well):

"Q. 5. May we not lawfully recreate ourselves upon the Sabbath-day, especially since the day is appointed to be a day of rest from our toiling labour in the week?

A. We may and ought to recreate our minds on the Sabbath.day in the worship of God, we being bound to call and make in this respect the Sabbath our delight. But we ought to forbear recreating our minds with carnal delight, either by words or deeds, which we may do oa other days; and much more we ought to forbear recreating our bodies by sports and pastimes, though after the public exercise of God's worship be over. "If thou turn away thy foot from the Sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it."— Isa. 58:13, 14."




> 5) getting money out of an ATM
> 
> The thing is on whether you use it or not and often it is a need.



Whether a machine is on or not is of less concern to me than whether its use on the Sabbath leads to bank employees needing to check or re-fill it during the Sabbath. But again, is it ever really a "necessity" to withdraw money on the Sabbath? The only reason we would need money on the Sabbath would be to give it to the Church (if one makes offering in cash) or in some instances to pass money to brethren for some reason or another. But why can this not be done on Saturday, ordering one's common affairs beforehand, as the Confession states?




> 9) having an outdoor picnic with wine and radio on
> 
> Gotta eat. Why not enjoy it?



This is, of course, not the issue. We do certainly eat with joy and thanksgiving on the Sabbath day (as on other days) and, as I said above, there is nothing wrong with eating outdoors. The point is that during the meal (whether outdoors or indoors), we are to keep the day holy unto the Lord and thus avoid worldly conversation and amusements during the meal . . . and, specifically, I do not think it would be appropriate to listen to secular radio on the Sabbath day, whether at a picnic or otherwise.



> I see no negative injunctions in the NT about the Sabbath...it's not even called the Sabbath anyway but is called the Lord's Day and the positive command to worship is given and not forsake our assembling.



It would not matter if the term "Sabbath" was not expressly applied to the Lord's Day in the New Testament, since clearly there is continuity between the Old and New Testament Sabbaths and the Fourth Commandment governs the Lord's Day. The Lord's Day is the Christian Sabbath, and I think it very beneficial to use the term Sabbath to remind us of the connection with the Fourth Commandment. I would also point out just a couple of verses in the Gospels which support the term's continuing use:

Mark 2.27-28: "And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath.

Matthew 20.24: "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day" (proving that Christ's followers would still be observing the Sabbath day at the time of the tribulation spoken of in this passage).



> If we do not allow tv or light sports, then neither can we allow for the reading of any fiction or anything for leisure that is not bible related. We cannot even allow walking in the woods unless we pay or make an effort to ponder the Creator. We simply cannot rest or be at leisure on our day of rest if we have to do nothing but pray or read the Bible.



Quite right that secular fiction or other secular leisures would not be appropriate, as the day belongs wholly unto God and we are to put aside our own common pleasures and pastimes during this day to be given more wholly unto worship. I do not wish to pass judgment on the motives of anyone's heart, but I must say that I find the insinuation of the above statement most troubling. You (perhaps unintentionally) make it sound as though spiritual exercises are something of a chore, and people will not be able to bear them unless interspersed with secular enjoyments here and there. But, surely, the greatest "rest" is indeed a resting in Christ, being in sweet meditation on the things of His kingdom and enjoying a foretaste of that eternal Sabbath for which we wait. There will be no trivialities such as novels, football matches, radio programmes or the like during that eternal Sabbath, so if our hearts are so bound to them that we cannot even endure 24 hours without them while in this life, I am afraid there may be something slightly amiss in our priorities. Simply put, these kinds of things cannot intrude into the Lord's holy day without taking away from it and the blessings for which it was designed. The Sabbath was made for man and the proper spiritual observing of it is a tremendous refreshment to man. We must be careful that worldly ideas of "recreation" do not replace what the Bible actually means by "rest". There is a tremendous variety of spiritual activities and services which may properly be done on the Sabbath (and there is, of course, room also for strolling and napping if done in a holy frame), I have never suggested that every hour outside public worship must be spent in a dark room reading a systematic theology. I find the Sabbath such a blessing as it is (and the hours of it few enough as they are), that I simply cannot fathom the idea that any other "recreations" would need to be brought in.

Blessings,

Jie-Huli


----------



## Jie-Huli

caoclan said:


> I have another to add, and please don't take this as sarcasm and disrespectful, but the list on these could be endless, which is why I am just posing one that may seem ridiculous... should we bathe ourselves on the sabbath? In keeping with some of the reasoning on this thread, it is something which could be postponed to another day, running water contributes to utilities employees working, and the day belongs wholly to God. Again, please don't misconstrue my attitude, I am just trying to illustrate my point.



Just to address the issue of utilities (such as water and electricity) generally, I would say that these are quite different from the other matters raised in the opening post, and we should be careful that these queries do not become a means of calling everything about Sabbath observance into question, or make it seem as though the teaching of the Christian Sabbath is some labyrinthine doctrine which is so difficult to apply that in the end it must simply be left to each person to decide for himself what is acceptable. (I am certainly not saying that is what you were doing, by the way).

I believe that utilities may properly be used on the Sabbath because:

(1) My understanding is that there is no incremental need for more employees to be working at the facilities based on how much of the utility is being used at any particular time and, thus, my use of water or electricity is not itself causing anyone to work; and

(2) Any work that does need to be done at utility companies on the Sabbath is in the nature of keeping watch on certain processes which must be kept running all the time (and are not affected by the amount of the utility being used on the day), and are required for, amongst other things, hospital equipment, police communications, traffic lights and other things which could legitimately be classified as necessities. Thus, arguably, the performance of the minimal work needed to keep the public utilities operating is itself a work of necessity.

If it could be shown that personal increased use of utilities actually did require extra personnel to work on the Sabbath, I would indeed curtail my usage.

Kind regards,

Jie-Huli


----------



## Jie-Huli

ColdSilverMoon said:


> And if one truly wanted to honor the Sabbath, wouldn't he start observing it at sunset Saturday night? Seriously...



Just with regard to the "sundown to sundown" issue (though I know this might be slightly off topic), I think Thomas Vincent is, again, most helpful on this subject:

"Q. 6. When doth this holy day or Sabbath begin, in the evening before, or that morning from midnight?
A. In the evening before, by virtue of that word, "Remember to keep holy the seventh day," we ought to begin to prepare for the Sabbath; but the Sabbath itself doth not begin until the evening is spent, and midnight thereof over, and the morning after twelve of the clock beginneth. 

Q. 7. Doth not the Scriptures require us to begin the Sabbath in the evening, when it is said, "The evening and the morning were the first day" (Gen. 1:5); and, "From even unto even shall ye celebrate your Sabbath?"— Lev. 33:32.
A. 1. It doth not follow that the evening of the first day was before the morning, though it be first spoken of; no more than that Shem and Ham were elder than Japheth, because they are reckoned up in order before him. "The sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth (Gen. 10:1); and yet Japheth is called the elder brother. — Verse 21. But Moses, reckoning up the works of God on the first day, retires back from the evening to the morning, and saith, they both make up the first day. Surely in the account of all nations, and in Scripture account too, the morning is before the evening. "The same day at evening, being the first day of the week, came Jesus," &c. (John 20:10), where the evening following this day, and on the evening before the day, is called the evening of the same day. 2. That place in Leviticus, concerning the celebration of the Sabbath from evening to evening, hath a reference only unto a ceremonial Sabbath, or day of atonement, on the tenth day of the seventh month, wherein the Israelites were to afflict their souls; but it hath not a reference unto the weekly Sabbath. 

Q. 8. How do you prove by the Scripture that the weekly Sabbath doth begin in the morning?
A. That the weekly Sabbath is to begin in the morning, is evident— 1. by Exod. 16:23: "This is that which the Lord hath said, to-morrow is the rest of the holy Sabbath unto the Lord." If the Sabbath had begun in the evening, Moses would have said, This evening doth begin the rest of the Sabbath; but he saith, To-morrow is the rest of the Sabbath. 2. Most evidently it doth appear that the Sabbath doth begin in the morning, and not in the evening, by Matt. 28:1: "In the end of the Sabbath, as it began to dawn towards the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre." If the end of the Jewish Sabbath were not in the evening, when it began to grow dark towards the night, but when it began to dawn towards the first day of the week, which must needs be towards the morning, and in no rational sense can be interpreted of the evening, then the Sabbath did also begin in the morning, and not in the evening, for the beginning and ending must needs be about the same time. But the former is evident from this place, concerning the Jewish Sabbath's ending; and therefore, consequently concerning its beginning. 3. Further, it is also said in this place, that the first day, which is the Christian Sabbath, did begin towards the dawning, as it grew on towards light, and not as it grew on towards darkness; therefore the Christian Sabbath doth begin in the morning. 4. Moreover, the resurrection of Christ, in commemoration of which the Christian Sabbath is observed, was not in the evening, but early in the morning ("Now when Jesus was risen early, the first day of the week "— Mark 16:9); therefore the Sabbath is to begin in the morning. 5. If the Sabbath did begin in the evening before, it would end in the evening after; and it would be lawful for men to work in their callings, or to go to their recreations, on the evening of the Sabbath, which surely would be very unsuitable after the holy employments of that day."

Kind regards,

Jie-Huli


----------



## Walkthecalling

Well, as you will read on other threads, I am coming from the reformed "baptist" perspective, so my church doesn't teach a Sabbath day set aside to God. THAT is a topic I am still studying! But my strongest reading on this has been Jonathan Edward's Resolutions. He wouldn't even allow himself to make light (joke) if he didn't believe the situation would bring Glory to God. So I would answer the questions based on his resolutions. The answers would match with Jie-Huli's answers I believe. I do think that this thread (as any covering a tough topic) can easily slide into a pro/con Sabbath discussion. The thing that stands out is the reasoning and attitude on the Sabbath. By the time of Jesus the Pharisees and the like had become experts in ways around the Sabbath. Don't travel too far from home, _put dirt from your home in your pocket!_ Etc. They were "technically" honoring the Sabbath, but it wasn't because they wished to honor God on that day, it was a day of inconvenience to their lives. Their hearts weren't for the Lord. I think once the Sabbath becomes a list of do's/don'ts for you, you are on the same course. From reading Edwards and many other Puritans, they would abstain from most of the things above, _only_ because they couldn't do these without losing focus on God. It is hard to glorify the Lord while watching a sport or playing, because your mind is elsewhere. I don't think there is only this way or that to keep your mind on the Lord. That's why a drive through a beautiful parkway to marvel at the Lord's creation could be ok. I don't believe you can carry the part of making someone possibly work to an extreme. Almost anything we do, could cause someone to work. Driving (car repair if broken down), using any electricity (power plants take workers), same with water, etc. But here again there is a difference in purposefully causing (buying, etc) and possibly causing (electricity, water, driving). Once again it is a heart issue. I always worry about a strong stand on possible gray matters to as not be a stumbling block for someone's faith. That's my input as I am learnin'!


----------



## Reformed Baptist

Reading through the thread reminded me why I am taking a very careful and slooooow approach to confessing a Sabbartian viewpoint.


----------



## Pergamum

Jie-Huli said:


> caoclan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have another to add, and please don't take this as sarcasm and disrespectful, but the list on these could be endless, which is why I am just posing one that may seem ridiculous... should we bathe ourselves on the sabbath? In keeping with some of the reasoning on this thread, it is something which could be postponed to another day, running water contributes to utilities employees working, and the day belongs wholly to God. Again, please don't misconstrue my attitude, I am just trying to illustrate my point.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just to address the issue of utilities (such as water and electricity) generally, I would say that these are quite different from the other matters raised in the opening post, and we should be careful that these queries do not become a means of calling everything about Sabbath observance into question, or make it seem as though the teaching of the Christian Sabbath is some labyrinthine doctrine which is so difficult to apply that in the end it must simply be left to each person to decide for himself what is acceptable. (I am certainly not saying that is what you were doing, by the way).
> 
> I believe that utilities may properly be used on the Sabbath because:
> 
> (1) My understanding is that there is no incremental need for more employees to be working at the facilities based on how much of the utility is being used at any particular time and, thus, my use of water or electricity is not itself causing anyone to work; and
> 
> (2) Any work that does need to be done at utility companies on the Sabbath is in the nature of keeping watch on certain processes which must be kept running all the time (and are not affected by the amount of the utility being used on the day), and are required for, amongst other things, hospital equipment, police communications, traffic lights and other things which could legitimately be classified as necessities. Thus, arguably, the performance of the minimal work needed to keep the public utilities operating is itself a work of necessity.
> 
> If it could be shown that personal increased use of utilities actually did require extra personnel to work on the Sabbath, I would indeed curtail my usage.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Jie-Huli
Click to expand...




Jie-Huli; Thanks for the responses. They are very consistent.


----------



## Reformed Baptist

Walkthecalling said:


> Sometimes I feel that Joshua is following me around correcting my inconsistencies... (like the 80's Police... _every move I make, every step I take he is watching me_). Thanks brother, I value that thoroughness very much. I did not qualify my statement. MY church while being Reformed Baptist/Non denominational, doesn't teach a Sabbatarian view.  Even though the historical perspective has been a Sabbatarian view. I have felt convicted by the Spirit of this though, I believe. I, like Reformed Baptist above, am studying more and more trying to grasp it all. I have read arguments on both sides, and I lean toward a Sabbatarian view. Mostly because so many of the men I respect seem so deeply convicted on it. But I continue to study... Enjoying the thread. Thanks all for the input.



Hey brother, if you are interested in starting a thread on the subject, I would like to know what you have been learning. I have emailed my pastor on this subject again for his thoughts as well. Our church is 1689 LBCF and is Sabbatarian. I just have not seen this in the Scripture yet. I don't really want to debate the subject, just learn..


----------



## Zenas

1) eating out at restaurants while traveling away from home

Yes.

2) eating out at restaurants while not traveling

No.

3) watching sports on television or internet

No.

4) taking a nap

Yes.

5) getting money out of an ATM 

Yes.

6) playing light recreation sports outside

Yes.

7) playing heavy recreation sports outside

No.

8) pleasure driving in the countryside

Yes.

9) having an outdoor picnic with wine and radio on

No.

10) regularly scheduling your work on Sundays if you are a fireman

Not sure.


----------



## Scott1

What is your scriptural understanding?



> Can you ordinarily do these things on the Lord's Day and not violate the Fourth Commandment?
> 
> (answer yes/no/not sure to each and if you care to, give a scriptural reason).
> 
> 
> 1) eating out at restaurants while traveling away from home
> 2) eating out at restaurants while not traveling
> 3) watching sports on television or internet
> 4) taking a nap
> 5) getting money out of an ATM
> 6) playing light recreation sports outside
> 7) playing heavy recreation sports outside
> 8) pleasure driving in the countryside
> 9) having an outdoor picnic with wine and radio on
> 10) regularly scheduling your work on Sundays if you are a fireman


----------



## 21st Century Calvinist

I freely admit that there are inconsistencies in my sabbath keeping. I am quite happy to use electricity/water, surf the net, have the radio wake me up in the morning, listen to the news. But I don't sit down to watch a movie or a TV show. When I was a student living in Glasgow or Edinburgh I would take the bus or train to church or to visit friends. I wouldn't have taken the bus or train for a 7 hour journey to/from my home village, except in an emergency.
I think that it is one thing to go out to eat, quite another to go the mall or to the grocery store for your weekly supplies. Yet, in an emergency I would go to the pharmacy for medication.
I guess that there are inconsistencies in all our lives and in many areas of our Christian walk. As always, there are circumstances that occur in our lives that cause us to do what we would not ordinarily do.
These are (some of) my inconsistencies and until I am given greater light or conviction on these things, this will be my practice. What I think is needed from all of us (especially from me) is to show grace to our brothers and sisters whose inconsistencies are different from ours. 
I am also required to work every 3rd Saturday and Sunday. I never shedule myself to work more Sundays than I am required to.To be honest, I hate it and would rather not work a Sunday. I know that I do a job that is well within even the most traditional understanding of necessity and mercy, it's just that I would rather spend every Sunday at church. On those weekends that I work, I try and rest on another day and listen to some sermons online, but it just does not compare to being at church with God's people.


----------



## Zenas

As a general rule of thumb, I think if a task or strenuous activity can be done on a day other than the Lord's day, then it should be done then. Likewise the same with most amusements, particularly ones that detract from fellowship and family, i.e. television and videogames.

The reasoning behind this is we are commanded to remember the Sabbath day, and to keep it Holy, i.e. set apart. Ergo, in avoiding these things, I feel I am keeping it set apart.


----------



## TimV

> having an outdoor picnic with wine and radio on



If you're at a PCA after church get together there's pretty much going to be alcohol there. If the people next to you in the park have their radio on would anyone move?


----------



## JonathanHunt

1) eating out at restaurants while traveling away from home

No - absolutely no need to if prepared beforehand. When I was considering a job 100 miles from home my wife and I spent the day at a church morning and evening, and had a pre-packed picnic in the afternoon.

2) eating out at restaurants while not traveling

No - same reason. There was once that we had just moved house, and even though I felt that I could justify eating out - because we had no food prepared and weren't unpacked - we didn't, not wanting to set a bad example to anyone else.

3) watching sports on television or internet

Yes and No. Do I think that it is absolutely wrong to watch sports on a Sunday? No. Would I watch sports? No - because it may be a relaxing leisure activity but I have six other days to do that and more importantly it takes my mind away from the things of God. I can remember sitting in church on a Sunday night ruing the fact that my team had lost during the preaching of the word. How pathetic that was.

4) taking a nap

Yes within reason. The Lord's Day is a blessed day and it may well be the only day we could ever grab a little shuteye during the day. With me, the nap is usually unintentional, it happens when I sit down with a book or listen to something edifying. I don't feel guilty about it though. Of course, if there are important works of neccessity or mercy to be done then napping would be selfish.

5) getting money out of an ATM

Yes. But I never would because I would never have a reason to. If I want to put money in the offering I have it in advance or write a cheque. I don't believe that taking money from a machine makes another human being work. Indeed, I have never seen a cash machine being filled on a Sunday. I would surmise that only those in shopping centres etc have to be refilled.

6) playing light recreation sports outside

Yes, with my son if he wants to play. Otherwise, no, I've got better things to do. Wholesome activity for the body is good, and with energetic children, quite neccessary, to enable them to pay due attention to ministry etc. I'd prefer taking a family walk together and talking about God's creation to playing sports, though. Excercise mind and body!

7) playing heavy recreation sports outside

No need.

8) pleasure driving in the countryside

Yes, I'd be ok with this, it gives a chance to survey God's creation and to talk (so long as the top isn't down ;-)) But personally I'd call it a waste of fuel. 

9) having an outdoor picnic with wine and radio on

Picnic yes, wine yes, radio - no. We talk to each other too little as it is. Let this day be special and unhindered by the world's agenda and concerns.

10) regularly scheduling your work on Sundays if you are a fireman

No. Simply. Any Christian who chooses to work Sundays over and above his/her basic commitment is 'forsaking the assembling of themselves together' with the rest of the church. Of course, in some professions it is neccessary to work some sundays. But not voluntarily.


This is a very subjective exercise, I have to say!


----------



## Pergamum

Zenas said:


> As a general rule of thumb, I think if a task or strenuous activity can be done on a day other than the Lord's day, then it should be done then. Likewise the same with most amusements, particularly ones that detract from fellowship and family, i.e. television and videogames.
> 
> The reasoning behind this is we are commanded to remember the Sabbath day, and to keep it Holy, i.e. set apart. Ergo, in avoiding these things, I feel I am keeping it set apart.



Jesus told the lame man to pick up his mat and walk. He could have just told the man to stand up - he could have came back after the Sabbath to retrieve his mat. But Jesus told him to pick up a burden.

But this man's labor was not a secular-aimed labor but his efforts glorified God. 














Also, the whole eating out thing. Any rule given must fit the whole world and in many places pre-packaged food is harder to get and some sort of labor must be done to eat by someone. 


As for as playing sports and recreations, recreations are a form of rest and can be aimed godward in that one enjoys the blessings of the day with family as they play.


----------



## Blueridge Believer

The sabbath must be kept in the heart. Otherwise it will become a legalistic mess like it did for the pharisee. There are duties to be performed I agree, but one must search his own heart to make sure that he sanctifies the day unto the Lord and does not use it as a tool to judge others by. I embraced the confessional sabbath position about a year ago after much wrestling with the issue. It is now the highlight of my week. If a person comes to see it as something that is for thier soul as well as thier body they will rejoice in it and sanctify it unto the Lord and a list of do's and don't's will not be needed. You will know in your soul if the day is properly observed.


----------



## Scott1

Blueridge Baptist said:


> The sabbath must be kept in the heart. Otherwise it will become a legalistic mess like it did for the pharisee. There are duties to be performed I agree, but one must search his own heart to make sure that he sanctifies the day unto the Lord and does not use it as a tool to judge others by. I embraced the confessional sabbath position about a year ago after much wrestling with the issue. It is now the highlight of my week. If a person comes to see it as something that is for thier soul as well as thier body they will rejoice in it and sanctify it unto the Lord and a list of do's and don't's will not be needed. You will know in your soul if the day is properly observed.



I too, agree the Confessional position summarizes the doctrine of Scripture on this although it is difficult to keep. It constantly reveals the sin in me because I really do not want to set aside time in thought, word and deed to worship and commune with God- sometimes my flesh resents it. But as I try, by God's Grace, I too have found it to be a "highlight." There is blessing in obedience.

So, then, in light of the ten (10) practices in the original post- which are you finding you try to do or not do and maybe you can explain scripturally why?


----------



## Scott1

In preparing to close this very important, thread, I am reminded that we, as Reformed Christians, have some very specific guidance, and solid exegesis to guide us on application of the Fourth Commandment:



> WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH XXI. 8.
> This Sabbath is to be kept holy unto the Lord when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all the day from their own works, words, and thoughts about their wordly employments and recreations,[38] but also are taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of His worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.[39]


----------



## Scott1

Scripture proofs, Westminster Confession of Faith, xxi 8.




> [38] exo 20:8 remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Exo 16:23 and he said unto them, this is that which the lord hath said, to morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the lord: Bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. 25 and moses said, eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the lord: To day ye shall not find it in the field. 26 six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none. 29 see, for that the lord hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. 30 so the people rested on the seventh day. 31:15 six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the lord: Whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 wherefore the children of israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 17 it is a sign between me and the children of israel for ever: For in six days the lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. Isa 58:13 if thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words. Neh 13:15 in those days saw i in judah some treading wine presses on the sabbath, and bringing in sheaves, and lading asses; as also wine, grapes, and figs, and all manner of burdens, which they brought into jerusalem on the sabbath day: And i testified against them in the day wherein they sold victuals. 16 there dwelt men of tyre also therein, which brought fish, and all manner of ware, and sold on the sabbath unto the children of judah, and in jerusalem. 17 then i contended with the nobles of judah, and said unto them, what evil thing is this that ye do, and profane the sabbath day? 18 did not your fathers thus, and did not our god bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city? Yet ye bring more wrath upon israel by profaning the sabbath. 19 and it came to pass, that when the gates of jerusalem began to be dark before the sabbath, i commanded that the gates should be shut, and charged that they should not be opened till after the sabbath: And some of my servants set i at the gates, that there should no burden be brought in on the sabbath day. 21 then i testified against them, and said unto them, why lodge ye about the wall? If ye do so again, i will lay hands on you. From that time forth came they no more on the sabbath. 22 and i commanded the levites that they should cleanse themselves, and that they should come and keep the gates, to sanctify the sabbath day. Remember me, o my god, concerning this also, and spare me according to the greatness of thy mercy.
> [39] isa 58:13 if thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words.


----------



## Scott1

Based on Scripture and from it, the summary of the doctrine contained in the Westminster Standards, Here are my answers to the original question. I will qualify and explain my reasoning in another post:

*Can you ordinarily do these things on the Lord's Day and not violate the Fourth Commandment? *

1) eating out at restaurants while traveling away from home
Yes

2) eating out at restaurants while not traveling
Yes

3) watching sports on television or internet
No

4) taking a nap
Yes

5) getting money out of an ATM 
No

6) playing light recreation sports outside
No

7) playing heavy recreation sports outside
No

8) pleasure driving in the countryside
No

9) having an outdoor picnic with wine and radio on
No

10) regularly scheduling your work on Sundays if you are a fireman
Yes


----------



## moral necessity

Personally, I think the Sabbath was originally given in order to restrain man from working all 7 days within the week. It protected man in the Israelite society from the overburden of duties from his master. Yet today, in our lazy culture, we often view it as a burden and end up examining how much restriction we ought to place on certain enjoyments that are given by God. I think we often apply it in a backwards sort of way, when it was never intended as such. 

Blessings!


----------



## ColdSilverMoon

moral necessity said:


> Personally, I think the Sabbath was originally given in order to restrain man from working all 7 days within the week. It protected man in the Israelite society from the overburden of duties from his master. Yet today, in our lazy culture, we often view it as a burden and end up examining how much restriction we ought to place on certain enjoyments that are given by God. I think we often apply it in a backwards sort of way, when it was never intended as such.
> 
> Blessings!





Well said! I think we often forget that the Sabbath was given as a _gift_, and was by no means intended to be burdensome. I stand by my orginal statement: as long as worshipping Him and fellowship are the priorities of the day, all else is permitted. Otherwise, in my opinion, we start down a Pharisaical path....


----------



## Scott1

1) eating out at restaurants while traveling away from home

2) eating out at restaurants while not traveling



> observe an holy rest all the day from their own works, words, and thoughts about their wordly employments and recreations





> A. The charge of keeping the sabbath is more specially directed to governors of families, and other superiors, because they are bound not only to keep it themselves, but to see that it be observed by all those that are under their charge; and because they are prone ofttimes to hinder them by employments of their own


 
I have not been able to resolve this in my thinking. I do it with the proviso we try to focus on the Lord while doing it (talk about God’s Word, etc and not drift into worldly conversation). 

On the one hand, eating is a necessity and either you or someone else will work to prepare it. On the other, it is causing others to work on Sunday by doing it. I do not think one could work in a restaurant or as a manager require others to work on the Sabbath.

Some Christian make a distinction of "necessity" while travelling, "convenience" while not. I see the same doctrinal principles apply to both.


----------



## Theoretical

Scott1 said:


> 1) eating out at restaurants while traveling away from home
> 
> 2) eating out at restaurants while not traveling
> 
> 
> 
> 
> observe an holy rest all the day from their own works, words, and thoughts about their wordly employments and recreations
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A. The charge of keeping the sabbath is more specially directed to governors of families, and other superiors, because they are bound not only to keep it themselves, but to see that it be observed by all those that are under their charge; and because they are prone ofttimes to hinder them by employments of their own
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have not been able to resolve this in my thinking. I do it with the proviso we try to focus on the Lord while doing it (talk about God’s Word, etc and not drift into worldly conversation).
> 
> On the one hand, eating is a necessity and either you or someone else will work to prepare it. On the other, it is causing others to work on Sunday by doing it. I do not think one could work in a restaurant or as a manager require others to work on the Sabbath.
> 
> Some Christian make a distinction of "necessity" while travelling, "convenience" while not. I see the same doctrinal principles apply to both.
Click to expand...

 

This has long been a major burden for me, if nothing else than due to the fact that virtually none of my Christian friends (either from church or elsewhere) have even close to Sabbath convictions. Especially as a single man, this means that it's very hard to actually foster fellowship, even if you live close to the area of these people.

I've tried to be inordinately hospitable, going way out of my way to fix nice meals and inviting people over for lunch and dinner, only to be declined for eating out.

There is a wonderful church I am able to visit that has great Sunday fellowship about once per month or so that's about 20-30 minutes from my church (which itself is 20 minutes from my apartment), but for a variety of reasons, it's too hard to visit on a weekly basis.

So I hear ya, big time.

Note: I do not eat out when I am home, but sometimes do when traveling (especially a problem since my parents are completely against it, so traveling with them is dicey and an issue I need to me a firm determination on soon.)


----------



## Scott1

3) watching sports on television or internet




> observe an holy rest all the day from their own works, words, and thoughts about their wordly employments and recreations




No. The commandment involves setting aside the ordinary things of work and seeking to entertain one’s self and focus on God in thought, word and deed.


----------



## Scott1

4) taking a nap



> Question 119: What are the sins forbidden in the fourth commandment?
> Answer: The sins forbidden in the fourth commandment are, all omissions of the duties required, all careless, negligent, and unprofitable performing of them, and being weary of them; all profaning the day by idleness,





> [632] Ezekiel 23:38. Moreover this they have done unto me: they have defiled my sanctuary in the same day, and have profaned my sabbaths.



Yes.

Historically, some have taught that wasting the day in sleep (instead of worship) was "profaning the day by idleness." As long as this does not replace worship time, and is not excessive, I cannot see this profanes the importance of worship or the day. Health may also require it as a necessity (but not to replace a pattern of lack of bed time discipline).


----------



## Scott1

5) getting money out of an ATM 



> , after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand,





> Q. 117. How is the sabbath or the Lord’s day to be sanctified?
> 
> and, to that end, we are to prepare our hearts, and with such foresight, diligence, and moderation, to dispose and seasonably dispatch our worldly business, that we may be the more free and fit for the duties of that day.[628]





> [628] Exodus 20:8. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Luke 23:54, 56. And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.... And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment. Exodus 16:22, 25-26, 29. And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses.... And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field. Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.... See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. Nehemiah 13:19. And it came to pass, that when the gates of Jerusalem began to be dark before the sabbath, I commanded that the gates should be shut, and charged that they should not be opened till after the sabbath: and some of my servants set I at the gates, that there should no burden be brought in on the sabbath day.



No. 

The Sabbath should be prepared for in advance so ordinary things that can be done in advance like money changing do not replace it.

And speaking of the _Sabbath_, as it draweth nigh, I'm going to break from this now and prepare for Lord's Day worship. I will continue my scriptural and confessional basis for the last 5 items later.

ENJOY THE LORD'S DAY!


----------



## Scott1

6) playing light recreation sports outside
7) playing heavy recreation sports outside
8) pleasure driving in the countryside
9) having an outdoor picnic with wine and radio on



> [observe an holy rest all the day from their own works, words, and thoughts about their wordly employments and recreations/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Q. 117. How is the sabbath or the Lord’s day to be sanctified?
> A. The sabbath or Lord’s day is to be sanctified by an holy resting all the day,[624] not only from such works as are at all times sinful, but even from such worldly employments and recreations as are on other days lawful;[625]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [624] Exodus 20:8, 10. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.... But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates.
> [625] Exodus 16:25-28. And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field. Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none. And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none. And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws? Nehemiah 13:15-22. In those days saw I in Judah some treading wine presses on the sabbath, and bringing in sheaves, and lading asses; as also wine, grapes, and figs, and all manner of burdens, which they brought into Jerusalem on the sabbath day: and I testified against them in the day wherein they sold victuals. There dwelt men of Tyre also therein, which brought fish, and all manner of ware, and sold on the sabbath unto the children of Judah, and in Jerusalem. Then I contended with the nobles of Judah, and said unto them, What evil thing is this that ye do, and profane the sabbath day? Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city? yet ye bring more wrath upon Israel by profaning the sabbath. And it came to pass, that when the gates of Jerusalem began to be dark before the sabbath, I commanded that the gates should be shut, and charged that they should not be opened till after the sabbath: and some of my servants set I at the gates, that there should no burden be brought in on the sabbath day. So the merchants and sellers of all kind of ware lodged without Jerusalem once or twice. Then I testified against them, and said unto them, Why lodge ye about the wall? if ye do so again, I will lay hands on you. From that time forth came they no more on the sabbath. And I commanded the Levites that they should cleanse themselves, and that they should come and keep the gates, to sanctify the sabbath day. Remember me, O my God, concerning this also, and spare me according to the greatness of thy mercy. Jeremiah 17:21-22. Thus saith the LORD; Take heed to yourselves, and bear no burden on the sabbath day, nor bring it in by the gates of Jerusalem; Neither carry forth a burden out of your houses on the sabbath day, neither do ye any work, but hallow ye the sabbath day, as I commanded your fathers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No. The commandment involves setting aside the ordinary things of work and seeking to entertain one’s self and focus on God in thought, word and deed.
Click to expand...


----------



## Scott1

10) regularly scheduling your work on Sundays if you are a fireman



> , and in the duties of necessity and mercy.





> The fourth commandment is, Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God:



Yes, if you first did everything possible to avoid a Sunday shift (no if you did not).

This person would, somehow, need to find a “seventh day” to rest and worship.


KEEPING THE FOURTH COMMANDMENT IS PART OF THE CHRISTIAN LIFE. THERE IS BLESSING IN OBEDIENCE.

THANKS FOR INTERACTING WITH PRACTICAL WAYS TO DO IT FOR HIS HONOR AND HIS GLORY!


----------



## Scott1

In conclusion, 
I see now the London Baptist Confession of Faith 1689 has almost exactly the same summary of the doctrine of Scripture regarding fourth commandment observation as does the Westminster Confession:



> 8._____ The sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering their common affairs aforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all day, from their own works, words and thoughts, about their worldly employment and recreations, but are also taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.
> ( Isaiah 58:13; Nehemiah 13:15-22; Matthew 12:1-13 )


----------



## Mushroom

Driving to Church, using electricity, using the telephone, posting on the internet, flushing the toilet, and a host of other things are forcing others to work on the Lord's Day.


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian

Brad said:


> Driving to Church, using electricity, using the telephone, posting on the internet, flushing the toilet, and a host of other things are forcing others to work on the Lord's Day.



Unless you want to start a Theocracy me using or not using electricity will not stop Allegheny Power from running their power station on Sunday. 

I will only say this one more time. The utilities argument is just plain ignorant (especially when used to justify eating out on the Sabbath).


----------



## calgal

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Brad said:
> 
> 
> 
> Driving to Church, using electricity, using the telephone, posting on the internet, flushing the toilet, and a host of other things are forcing others to work on the Lord's Day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unless you want to start a Theocracy me using or not using electricity will not stop Allegheny Power from running their power station on Sunday.
> 
> I will only say this one more time. The utilities argument is just plain ignorant (especially when used to justify eating out on the Sabbath).
Click to expand...


Staying on topic, the rules in the OP are not binding to anyone other than the OP. Nowhere in Brad's post did he state a desire to get him some Mickey D's: just that there is no way to avoid others working on the Lord's day as long as people behave normally in their homes or attend a church farther away than walking distance. And if the idea of following the 4th commandment includes not working, why then does your wife or mother have to work in the kitchen cooking on the Lord's Day?  I would appreciate a valid reason for the exception applying to cooking meals which involves preparation and cleaning up on Sunday.


----------



## Backwoods Presbyterian

Mostly because Jesus says we can eat and prepare our own food on the Sabbath. 

Read the Ch. XXI of the WCF and look at the WSC and LC for the reasoning.


----------



## wmc1982

please let us flush the toilet


----------



## calgal

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> Mostly because Jesus says we can eat and prepare our own food on the Sabbath.
> 
> Read the Ch. XXI of the WCF and look at the WSC and LC for the reasoning.



Read these and your reasoning does not apply. Using Jesus' words, everyone is responsible for feeding themselves. That does not become the job of a servant, mom, wife, granny or auntie Mabel.


----------



## ascottishsamurai

Walkthecalling said:


> The thing that stands out is the reasoning and attitude on the Sabbath. By the time of Jesus the Pharisees and the like had become experts in ways around the Sabbath. Don't travel too far from home, _put dirt from your home in your pocket!_ Etc. They were "technically" honoring the Sabbath, but it wasn't because they wished to honor God on that day, it was a day of inconvenience to their lives. Their hearts weren't for the Lord. I think once the Sabbath becomes a list of do's/don'ts for you, you are on the same course. From reading Edwards and many other Puritans, they would abstain from most of the things above, _only_ because they couldn't do these without losing focus on God. It is hard to glorify the Lord while watching a sport or playing, because your mind is elsewhere. I don't think there is only this way or that to keep your mind on the Lord. That's why a drive through a beautiful parkway to marvel at the Lord's creation could be ok. I don't believe you can carry the part of making someone possibly work to an extreme. Almost anything we do, could cause someone to work. Driving (car repair if broken down), using any electricity (power plants take workers), same with water, etc. But here again there is a difference in purposefully causing (buying, etc) and possibly causing (electricity, water, driving). Once again it is a heart issue.



I think that this is a VERY good point brother, and one that I feel I would agree with readily.

It is also interesting to note the actions of Jesus here in Mark 2:23-27

"One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. The Pharisees said to him, "Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath? He answered, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions." Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

I think that that ties in very well with your point, if I understand it correctly. An exception arose out of need, and Jesus met that need without breaking the commandment. His heart cannot have been in the wrong place, as He is the Lord. Therefore in that particular case it must have been more a matter of the heart and attitude. 

...I wonder if it would even be too much to say that that was the Biblical equivalent of "eating out while traveling"? Jesus clearly didn't "forget" to pack food, as He predestined that they would be without on that afternoon, therefore He must have purposefully intended to prove a point. That in a necessity, when our human minds _do_ neglect a detail or two and unforeseen need _does_ arise, that there is nothing sinful in taking measures to fulfill those needs, that we may be all the more ready to serve Him. 

Also notice, and please correct me if I am making too big of an assumption here, that they were taking a walk through the countryside, and were not cooped up in constant meditation. Could we even possibly concur that the Pharisees who spotted them were not either...the more likely to have been doing such deep study as legalistic as they were? Otherwise, they would not have necessarily spotted Jesus way out in the fields.



> I always worry about a strong stand on possible gray matters to as not be a stumbling block for someone's faith. That's my input as I am learnin'!



Thank you for your humility in the presentation of your opinion. That is of great encouragement to me.


----------



## Scott1

> ascottishsamurai
> Puritanboard Freshman
> 
> That in a necessity, when our human minds do neglect a detail or two and unforeseen need does arise, that there is nothing sinful in taking measures to fulfill those needs, that we may be all the more ready to serve Him.



As you consider this, keep in mind God never required man to "sabbath" (cease) from eating in the Fourth Commandment. The Lord was correcting the man-made rules of the Pharisees connected with food preparation. There were certain times in Israel's history where God provided their food (manna) the day before the Sabbath so that the distraction of food preparation would be minimized on that day.

The Fourth Commandment has always required some advance preparation. This aspect is summarized in the Westminster Larger Catechism:



> Q. 117. How is the sabbath or the Lord’s day to be sanctified?
> A. The sabbath or Lord’s day is to be sanctified by an holy resting all the day,[624] not only from such works as are at all times sinful, but even from such worldly employments and recreations as are on other days lawful;[625] and making it our delight to spend the whole time (except so much of it as is to be taken up in works of necessity and mercy[626]) in the public and private exercises of God’s worship:[627] and, to that end, *we are to prepare our hearts, and with such foresight, diligence, and moderation, to dispose and seasonably dispatch our worldly business, that we may be the more free and fit for the duties of that day.[*628]


 Scripture "proofs" supra.

Going out to get gasoline for the car, cash from the ATM, running to the grocery store to get an item to complete a recipe ordinarily result from a lack of planning, (preparation) and ordinarily distract from Lord's Day worship as well as require others to work on the Lord's Day (to meet your lack of preparation).

I use the word "ordinarily" because there are emergency or unusual circumstances that would make an exception. However, the "exceptions" are not the rule.


----------



## Blueridge Believer

The Commandment That Time Made 'Optional'

Here's one of those surprising things you learn when you study church history. You read the words of Charles Spurgeon talking about "profane Sabbath-breakers", and the Puritans talking about Sabbath-breaking in the same sentence as lying, lusting, and other moral failings. You read many of the greatest theologians and seminary professors essentially saying: "of course we believe in the Sabbath, it is one of the 10 commandments". Now fast forward a hundred years or two, and you find modern Christians, usually with a fraction as much bible knowledge, who are so sure of themselves that the Sabbath is no longer for today. So who's right, the new Christians, or the old ones?


----------



## Jie-Huli

Hello again.

In what is likely to be my last post on this thread, I would just like to address a couple of points which I have seen come up several times:

1. The issue of "eating out" vs. preparing food at home.
2. Whether it is "pharisaical" to be specific in our statements about what is and is not proper to do on the Sabbath.

1. Eating Out

It would seem clear to me that a family preparing food for itself at home and eating out at restaurants on the Sabbath are as different as night and day. In the case of eating at home, a family is simply using a small amount of time to prepare and eat the food necessary for it during the day, which so long as it is not overly elaborate need not take away from the spiritual focus of the day. This has always been viewed (by the Puritans and down through church history) as a legitimate and necessary activity to take place on the Sabbath day.

Eating out, however, involves employing others, for a wage, to engage in servile work for extended periods on the Sabbath in violation of God's law and to the great detriment of their souls. The cooks and waitresses are not simply involved in preparing one small meal at each mealtime in which they themselves are partaking; they are serving table after table, family after family, for meals with which their only involvement is as a labourer; this is their daily work, and they are now labouring and working on the Sabbath the same way they work on other days. One family eating in a restaurant on the Sabbath might only spend one hour to do so, but you can be sure that the workers within are going to need to be there a lot longer than that to cater for yours and other people's dining. And so what is done for our pleasure and convenience is contributing to the death of other people's souls.

This point is actually a very good illustration of the spiritual heart of God's command. This is not just some arbitrary regulation with no real spiritual implications (which of course none of God's laws could possibly be). The Fourth Commandment speaks directly about not making others work on the Sabbath, and it is surely not difficult to understand why. When we employ others to work for us on the Sabbath, we are participating in causing them to disobey God's command and to lose out on the spiritual benefits of the Sabbath of which their souls are so needful. This is true whether or not that person happens to be a Christian . . . if he is not yet converted, then he is of course especially needful of the ability to turn to the things of the soul on God's special day, and it is especially sad to be party to keeping him from doing that. This is not just a hypothetical, this is a very real issue with very real spiritual implications for people . . . I have given out many church invitations to strangers who said they could not make it to a worship service on the Sabbath because of work, most of them working in restaurant or shops. And will Christians be a party to making a use of people like this on God's holy day, as though those people just existed for their convenience?

As J.C. Ryle said (a quote I saw in another recent thread): “Have servants, and shop-men, and engine-drivers, and coachmen, and clerks, and porters, no souls? Do they not need rest for their bodies and time for their souls, like other men?”

And so to refrain from making others work on the Sabbath unnecessarily is nothing less than a direct outworking of the second greatest command, that we should love our neighbours as ourselves. 

If anyone regards being exact on these matters as being "pharisaical", I must say I believe that represents a great misunderstanding of what real "pharisaism" really was, about which more below:

2. "Pharisaism"

I have seen it stated more than once that to go beyond the most basic statements about the Sabbath, to actually address specifics about what ought and ought not to be done on the Sabbath, is equivalent to pharisaism. I must say that I disagree with this very strongly. The main error of the Pharisees with respect to the Sabbath is not that they were exact; it is that they had lost sight of the real purposes of the Sabbath, and thus multiplied their own rules without Scriptural foundation and without any true regard for the glory of God and the good of men's souls.

The Puritans and Scottish churches (with whose teachings I identify) could not be farther from such an error in their teachings on the Sabbath, as anyone remotely familiar with them will know. We must realise that their detailed instructions on Sabbath observance were rooted in a deep Scriptural understanding of God's purposes in instituting the Sabbath and in its true benefit for men's souls, and no matter what particular detail of Sabbath observance they were writing about, no matter how meticulous they might seem, if you trace their reasoning to its end you will find it always comes back to the greatest command of loving God with all our hearts and with all our minds and with all our souls, and the second greatest command of loving our neighbours as ourselves.

But the fact that love to God and man is the heart of Sabbath observance certainly does not mean that in practical terms people may "apply" the principles any way they like. The Puritans wrote very pointedly and in absolute terms on the impropriety of certain activities, because there is simply no way that such activities could be consistent with the Scriptural principles of the Sabbath. Sabbath observance is not an arbitrary or subjective issue any more than obeying the other nine Commandments is. And ministers are just as right to expound on the practical and detailed applications of honouring the Sabbath as they are to expound in-depth and in practical ways on refraining from stealing, from lust and from bearing false witness.

It is a great tragedy to despise the great heritage of teachings we have from the Puritans on this issue without coming to understand the substance behind them.

Kind regards,

Jie-Huli


----------



## ColdSilverMoon

Blueridge Baptist said:


> The Commandment That Time Made 'Optional'
> 
> Here's one of those surprising things you learn when you study church history. You read the words of Charles Spurgeon talking about "profane Sabbath-breakers", and the Puritans talking about Sabbath-breaking in the same sentence as lying, lusting, and other moral failings. You read many of the greatest theologians and seminary professors essentially saying: "of course we believe in the Sabbath, it is one of the 10 commandments". Now fast forward a hundred years or two, and you find modern Christians, usually with a fraction as much bible knowledge, who are so sure of themselves that the Sabbath is no longer for today. So who's right, the new Christians, or the old ones?



The problem with this reasoning, especially in this particular thread, is that almost none of the specific activites listed in the OP were possible 100+ years ago. There were no televisions, no internet or computers, no cars for leisurely drives, no ATMs. Who's to say Spurgeon wouldn't have approved of all those things? I think we all agree that we should honor the Lord's Day - that's not the point of the thread. We are discussing specific activities, and in that regard Spurgeon is irrelevant other than napping and recreational activities.


----------



## ascottishsamurai

Jie-Huli said:


> Hello again.
> And so what is done for our pleasure and convenience is contributing to the death of other people's souls...
> 
> ...And will Christians be a party to making a use of people like this on God's holy day, as though those people just existed for their convenience?
> 
> ...It is a great tragedy to despise the great heritage of teachings we have from the Puritans on this issue without coming to understand the substance behind them.



Forgive me, for I did not mean to give the impression that I felt that such an act was the acceptable norm. I am terribly sorry if I gave that impression, and am also convicted, Jie-Huli. Didn't mean to host a covenanter roasting...

  

Perhaps part of my conviction stems from the fact that as the body of Christ we need to be more active in searching our churches for those that need places to go or stay over the Sabbath. I know that that is a particular weakness of mine, but it would certainly help reduce the need for other people in some industries to break the Sabbath. (Yes I realize that I said "need" and I do not mean for that word to open a can of worms...)

Certainly an invitation to lunch, dinner, or offer of lodging for the night can extend to more than just the visiting pastor and his family...should the need arise and other guests be present.

But I'll shut up now, before I make myself sound even more ignorant. And maybe that isn't a problem in your churches, but I know certainly that that is an area that I myself can stand growth in.


----------



## ColdSilverMoon

Jie-Huli said:


> 2. "Pharisaism"
> 
> I have seen it stated more than once that to go beyond the most basic statements about the Sabbath, to actually address specifics about what ought and ought not to be done on the Sabbath, is equivalent to pharisaism. I must say that I disagree with this very strongly. The main error of the Pharisees with respect to the Sabbath is not that they were exact; it is that they had lost sight of the real purposes of the Sabbath, and thus multiplied their own rules without Scriptural foundation and without any true regard for the glory of God and the good of men's souls.
> 
> The Puritans and Scottish churches (with whose teachings I identify) could not be farther from such an error in their teachings on the Sabbath, as anyone remotely familiar with them will know. We must realise that their detailed instructions on Sabbath observance were rooted in a deep Scriptural understanding of God's purposes in instituting the Sabbath and in its true benefit for men's souls, and no matter what particular detail of Sabbath observance they were writing about, no matter how meticulous they might seem, if you trace their reasoning to its end you will find it always comes back to the greatest command of loving God with all our hearts and with all our minds and with all our souls, and the second greatest command of loving our neighbours as ourselves.
> 
> But the fact that love to God and man is the heart of Sabbath observance certainly does not mean that in practical terms people may "apply" the principles any way they like. The Puritans wrote very pointedly and in absolute terms on the impropriety of certain activities, because there is simply no way that such activities could be consistent with the Scriptural principles of the Sabbath. Sabbath observance is not an arbitrary or subjective issue any more than obeying the other nine Commandments is. And ministers are just as right to expound on the practical and detailed applications of honouring the Sabbath as they are to expound in-depth and in practical ways on refraining from stealing, from lust and from bearing false witness.
> 
> It is a great tragedy to despise the great heritage of teachings we have from the Puritans on this issue without coming to understand the substance behind them.



We are indebted to the Puritans on many levels. But we should also remember the historical context of Puritanism, and realize they went overboard on some of their rules and regulations. To automatically assume they are correct on every principle is simplistic and naive. We should base our actions and behaviors on Scripture alone, though we can certainly learn from the insights of our spiritual forbears. My point is that just because we disagree with the Puritans on specific issues doesn't mean we "despise" them or fail to understand them. Any further discussion on this topic should be in a different thread, but as for the specifics listed in the OP, the Puritans' view is mostly irrelevant.


----------



## Jie-Huli

ascottishsamurai said:


> Forgive me, for I did not mean to give the impression that I felt that such an act was the acceptable norm. I am terribly sorry if I gave that impression, and am also convicted, Jie-Huli. Didn't mean to host a covenanter roasting...
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps part of my conviction stems from the fact that as the body of Christ we need to be more active in searching our churches for those that need places to go or stay over the Sabbath. I know that that is a particular weakness of mine, but it would certainly help reduce the need for other people in some industries to break the Sabbath. (Yes I realize that I said "need" and I do not mean for that word to open a can of worms...)
> 
> Certainly an invitation to lunch, dinner, or offer of lodging for the night can extend to more than just the visiting pastor and his family...should the need arise and other guests be present.
> 
> But I'll shut up now, before I make myself sound even more ignorant. And maybe that isn't a problem in your churches, but I know certainly that that is an area that I myself can stand growth in.




Hello, Ben. I certainly was not responding in particular to anything that you wrote. I was just responding generally to several statements I have seen in this and another thread. Please do not think that I was targeting you with my words. Happy to interact with you here. 

You are right that hospitality towards others in the church is often very important in helping everyone to honour and benefit by the Sabbath. While young people who live alone can still prepare simple meals for themselves, it is often much nicer if they can be invited to a family's home for good spiritual fellowship during the meal. At some churches (such as my own), many people eat lunch right at the church, and there is always space for visitors to stay as well.

My experience is that, generally speaking, the churches which have the highest regard for sanctifying the Sabbath are also the most forward in offering practical hospitality (meals, transportation, etc.) to visitors.

Kind regards,

Jie-Huli


----------

