# Computers in Class: Help or Harm?



## R. Scott Clark (Dec 11, 2007)

Attention students:

I could use your feedback regarding the use of computers in classroom on the HB

rsc


----------



## Semper Fidelis (Dec 12, 2007)

I'm going to provide my feedback here so I can bump this thread and more can interact on the HB.

I think there are a number of things about computers that have made the learning environment easier and, for that reason, it deprecates the learning experience. As much as I love computers, I'm glad to have been forced to use a regular typewriter and real books to do research papers in high school and college. Copying and pasting a huge chunk of text doesn't force me to have to choose words as carefully.

With specific reference to notes, I've never liked computers. I cannot annotate important points as well. I want to be able to mark things and even diagram things to make points clearer. Every time I've tried to go to a computer to replace normal note taking it has never worked for me.


----------



## No Longer A Libertine (Dec 12, 2007)

As a research tool they are a life saver but they KILL social skills and interaction in this hyper digital age, people forget how to collaborate in the flesh and converse beyond AIM dialogue, to debate and prod beyond face value, computers have helped the flesh be slothful in many ways as they've alleviated social insecurities by masking them for many.


----------



## Semper Fidelis (Dec 12, 2007)

On a side note, I asked a room full of junior Officers the other day if they knew what a Frost Call was. Only one in the room knew and that's only because her boss had forced one recently.

Whenever something important was happening in a military unit, there was a standard procedure set up that many of you probably know as a "phone tree". Everyone knew who to call so the entire unit could be contacted and, in some cases, recalled. Now, nobody practices it any more and when e-mail goes down a command is paralyzed.


----------



## No Longer A Libertine (Dec 12, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> On a side note, I asked a room full of junior Officers the other day if they knew what a Frost Call was. Only one in the room knew and that's only because her boss had forced one recently.
> 
> Whenever something important was happening in a military unit, there was a standard procedure set up that many of you probably know as a "phone tree". Everyone knew who to call so the entire unit could be contacted and, in some cases, recalled. Now, nobody practices it any more and when e-mail goes down a command is paralyzed.


The United States military is at the mercy of e-mail? Yikes.


----------



## Semper Fidelis (Dec 12, 2007)

No Longer A Libertine said:


> SemperFideles said:
> 
> 
> > On a side note, I asked a room full of junior Officers the other day if they knew what a Frost Call was. Only one in the room knew and that's only because her boss had forced one recently.
> ...



Shhhhh....the Chinese might read this.

Seriously, don't bet your life on it. My point was pedagogical to the students I was teaching. We adjust but it's painful. As a Communications Officer I *always* provide alternate comm means but people don't know how to use them. We still use radio by and large for Ground Combat and Air Support.


----------



## No Longer A Libertine (Dec 12, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> No Longer A Libertine said:
> 
> 
> > SemperFideles said:
> ...


Ha! If intelligence was smart they'd communicate through Christian literature, one thing they know the Chinese are trying to keep their masses clear from, wouldn't want any Red Army soldiers falling under the study of the Christian doctrine.


----------



## Puritan Sailor (Dec 12, 2007)

R. Scott Clark said:


> Attention students:
> 
> I could use your feedback regarding the use of computers in classroom on the HB
> 
> rsc




Dr. Van Pelt here at RTS has argued from some research he read that computers hinder the learning process and that the old hand written notes are more conducive to learning. You may want to contact him about what research he has in mind.


----------



## Semper Fidelis (Dec 12, 2007)

Puritan Sailor said:


> R. Scott Clark said:
> 
> 
> > Attention students:
> ...



Research?! What about my anecdotes.

Here's another one for people like David.

I still have a distinct memory of a paper I had to write in 1983. I think it was a 10 page paper but it had to be typed. Back in those days, the only way you learned how to type was on a real life typewriter. I'm thankful I actually took a typing class in high school but this paper preceded that effort. I had to type that paper using two fingers and searching for every letter.

It took me about two days of working practically non-stop just to type that thing. I would mess up some detail and I would have to sometimes re-type an entire page that was messed up. You really had to draft everything out and think about what you were going to write ahead of time. I had learned a trick from my teacher to do research by using index cards with a sentence of facts on each index card with the reference of where you got it on the back. You could then shuffle the cards in the order you needed for research.

I have to say that I don't miss typewriters at all but, even as a freshman in college, I still remember using some typewriters that you could type a whole line of text in a little display and then choose print and the typewriter would type the whole line and then you'd go to the next one. That was pretty cool for back then.

When you think about how prolific Origen or Augustine or Calvin or Owen was given only parchment and a quill it simply boggles the mind. I was even thinking about that the other day how hard these guys must have had to study to keep track of where certain Scriptures were of referencing where certain words appear. There was certainly no search feature they could rely upon.


----------



## RamistThomist (Dec 12, 2007)

i type 3 or 4 times faster than I write. So I can get more factoids down. But on the downside it might be 3 or 4 days when I get these notes printed, so that's several days without studying. Also, can't really diagram on a computer. Other than that, I like computers.


----------



## jaybird0827 (Dec 12, 2007)

joshua said:


> Typing? What is that, anyway?


 
Does your computer not have a QWERTY keyboard??? There's a lot you can do with a mouse but, I mean ...


----------



## VictorBravo (Dec 12, 2007)

My set of anecdotes too. I'm from the dark ages when notes were by hand and computers used punch cards (of course, there were magnetic tapes too!). So when I was in college it was all handwriting and typewriters. I still have and use my portable mechanical Olympia. 

After graduating with a BS and doing some Masters Degree work, I stayed out of school for about 9 years and then went back to law school in the late 80s. I had a dual floppy laptop which I loved, but I never used it in class because the key clacking was too distracting. One other guy brought his to class, but after a few days, the professor banned it because of the noise. BTW, this was before wireless internet so you couldn't be distracted by the web.

So another 15 years went by and I'm back in law school for an advanced degree. Everyone has computers, half the students are surfing the web during class, and the class discussion is noticably less deep. I'm convinced that it is because people are spending their time trying to get things down into their notes that they are listening as stenographers rather than participants. The difference is striking.

On the plus side, your computerized notes are searchable and easy to index. On the minus side, taking those notes involves more of your resources than the habit of jotting down important points during the class. It is hard to both be a stenographer and a participant.

The old manual note taking took more time because for them to be meaningful you had to go back and edit/synthesize them. But that helped learning.

On balance, I'd be in favor of no computers, but I fear that students these days would feel naked and anxious without them.


----------



## wsw201 (Dec 12, 2007)

Using computers?? When I was in college I was not allowed to use a calculator!


----------



## VictorBravo (Dec 12, 2007)

wsw201 said:


> Using computers?? When I was in college I was not allowed to use a calculator!



 Calculators? Only the rich kids had 'em. All of us were required to be proficient on slide rules!


----------



## wsw201 (Dec 12, 2007)

Slide rules!!! that takes me back. My dad had two of them. A standard 12 in. and a small pocket slide rule. The only reason I had a calculator (an HP 21) was that my uncle bought it for me when I graduated high school (he was my rich uncle!). When I first got it I felt like those monkeys in 2001: A Space Odessey looking at that big black thing.


----------



## VictorBravo (Dec 12, 2007)

wsw201 said:


> Slide rules!!! that takes me back. My dad had two of them. A standard 12 in. and a small pocket slide rule. The only reason I had a calculator (an HP 21) was that my uncle bought it for me when I graduated high school (he was my rich uncle!). When I first got it I felt like those monkeys in 2001: A Space Odessey looking at that big black thing.



Those were cool and the envy of my engineering classmates. BTW, I still have my 1975 CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics with its finger-stained log tables. Those were the days.


----------



## No Longer A Libertine (Dec 12, 2007)

wsw201 said:


> Slide rules!!! that takes me back. My dad had two of them. A standard 12 in. and a small pocket slide rule. The only reason I had a calculator (an HP 21) was that my uncle bought it for me when I graduated high school (he was my rich uncle!). When I first got it I felt like those monkeys in 2001: A Space Odessey looking at that big black thing.


What is so incredible is that the US Air Force designed the Black Bird, the F-16 and the Apollo space capsule using nothing but a slide rule.

Could modern engineers match that feat?


----------



## Davidius (Dec 12, 2007)

The constant clicking away of students with their laptops in class is quite annoying, in my opinion.


----------



## wsw201 (Dec 12, 2007)

No Longer A Libertine said:


> wsw201 said:
> 
> 
> > Slide rules!!! that takes me back. My dad had two of them. A standard 12 in. and a small pocket slide rule. The only reason I had a calculator (an HP 21) was that my uncle bought it for me when I graduated high school (he was my rich uncle!). When I first got it I felt like those monkeys in 2001: A Space Odessey looking at that big black thing.
> ...



Years from now they will say that the same space aliens that helped the Egyptians build the pyramids helped us build the space program!!


----------



## VictorBravo (Dec 12, 2007)

No Longer A Libertine said:


> Could modern engineers match that feat?



I had an engineering prof who used to say, "all you need are three significant digits and funding."


----------



## No Longer A Libertine (Dec 12, 2007)

victorbravo said:


> No Longer A Libertine said:
> 
> 
> > Could modern engineers match that feat?
> ...


They can throw money at the problem for certain but do they possess the creativity to do it with available resources astheir predecessors?


----------



## DMcFadden (Dec 12, 2007)

Frankly, if a professor were to distribute the lecture notes (or at least the powerpoint presentations in advance), students would be able to annotate and augment (e.g., notes on the side with three thumbnails per page) sparingly, allowing more time for engaged reflection and interaction with the material. This would also make it easier to find material later during the study process.


----------



## VictorBravo (Dec 12, 2007)

No Longer A Libertine said:


> victorbravo said:
> 
> 
> > No Longer A Libertine said:
> ...



He _was_ the predecessor.  (Got his start on the Manhattan Project). He was refering to the fact that a slide rule is only accurate to three significant digits, but that is all you need to do anything, go the the moon, build a bridge, or an atom bomb.


----------



## No Longer A Libertine (Dec 12, 2007)

DMcFadden said:


> Frankly, if a professor were to distribute the lecture notes (or at least the powerpoint presentations in advance), students would be able to annotate and augment (e.g., notes on the side with three thumbnails per page) sparingly, allowing more time for engaged reflection and interaction with the material. This would also make it easier to find material later during the study process.


Hey, I went to college and I was a pretty average student, lousy at Greek however but a B and A- student in most other instances, anyhow my point is that MANY and dare I say MOST (without erring on the side of hubris) students just want a good grade and to move on, retaining knowledge and engaging critical thought is something lacking in many curriculums, it has become regurgitation of info.

What colleges fail to do is train and interact with the different types of intellect people possess, social, creative and analytical intelligence are three different aspects of being human and we all have different strengths and seldom possess all three in bountiful supply.


----------



## Puritan Sailor (Dec 12, 2007)

I like using my labtop simply because of its like having a portable office. I can look up my notes anywhere for any class, got the Confessional Standards, Bible Works, Word, etc. If I can find a wireless port I'm even better, because then I can study, use the internet for looking up resources if needed, and also be available to the wife via gmail chat, if she needs me. 

I do agree, I can interact and learn much more when the prof hands out a good outline or notes to follow along with, especially if they're in electronic format, so I can just type in my own comments and observations. I'm a more auditory learner anyway, so the less I can type/write and the more I can listen, the more I will take in.


----------



## Eoghan (Dec 12, 2007)

*Specific application but not church*

I use Powerpoint in school with students all the time.

Lower down the school I use it to prompt poor writers by putting up the stem of an answer before completing it. Higher up the school I use more graphics and animations to explain chemical reactions and mechanisms.

On the down side it does establish tramlines that you run along each year. I even add prompts to my anecdotes. Does this remove the dynamic relationship of discussion and using a blackboard - probably.

In Church however I do think it a major distraction. Some one uses powerpoint in church and I am instantly criticising their background, font excessive use of animation etc...

The Welsh Evangelical Hymn books had a preface that asked you to read the hymn before singing to meditate on the meaning and reflect on the hym before singing it. With the worship software that throws up one verse at a time I keep expecting the bouncing ball used in Walt Disney karaoke DVD's. (Apologies to all those who find these innovations useful).

My greatest reservations however concern the reading of Scripture. I have noticed in my own church that the habit of repeating the lesson "Reading from Mathew 12 verse 3, that is chapter 12 and starting at verse 3" is falling into disuse. There is not the pause while the congregation find the text in their Bibles . The expectation is that we will hear it only. Powerpoint reinforces this by throwing up one verse/paragraph at a time. This makes it more difficult to see it in context, the before and the after.

So yes in education (where it has a definite purpose) but not in church thank you. I am even considering NOT using powerpoint in speaking engagements for the Creationist Society I am a rep for.


----------



## mr_burns (Dec 12, 2007)

This is a great thread... I was actually JUST thinking about this an hour ago. I want to get the new macbook pro for when I head off to seminary in January... however, $2k is a big hit... So, I was wondering if I could actually go unplugged. Paper and Pen... oh my!

It is a hard toss up. I like the computer because it is, as the Sailor said, it is a portable office. Nice to have your seminary notes filed in the digital brain for future reference. However, I do find that I learn better taking notes on paper. I prefer a blank page that I can write notes all over the place and draw arrows and what not.

I think I might go paper style and then, in the evenings, work through my notes, getting them into the computer. Might be a good idea...


----------



## VictorBravo (Dec 12, 2007)

mr_burns said:


> I think I might go paper style and then, in the evenings, work through my notes, getting them into the computer. Might be a good idea...



I really like that approach. It will take a bit more time, but the stuff is yours when you do it. I've tried both methods and the above probably works a bit better for me. Besides, you won't have the internet to distract you--which is a problem sometimes when an intense discussion on PB is going on.


----------



## crhoades (Dec 12, 2007)

Here is the ideal set up:

Tablet PC
Notes provided by professor
Microsoft OneNote
External Mic.

In MS OneNote copy and paste the notes for that day's lecture. Click record. Highlight the notes as the professor covers them and write with the stylus to annotate and add to the notes. This gives 2 things. One: no click clacking on the keyboard - I find that annoying. 2. Every time your stylus touches the screen to annotate it bookmarks the audio recording to that place in the notes. In other words,, if the professor says something profound, instead of having to type/write it down and miss the thrust of the statement, simply make a short hand mark for later review and then transcribe it in full later. 

I put all of this into play a couple of months ago in my first class for RTS Charlotte in John Frame's History of Philosophy and Christian Thought class and I couldn't have been happier with the results. Other students really liked the setup. Cool thing is that it is my work tablet so I'm not out any money. It is the IBM/Lenovo Thinkpad X61 tablet.

This also affords copying and pasting from esword/logos/bibleworks during the lecture as well.


----------



## VictorBravo (Dec 12, 2007)

crhoades said:


> Here is the ideal set up:
> 
> Tablet PC
> Notes provided by professor
> ...



I've really been wanting to do something like that. Not just for school, but for work too. I'll have to look into this set up.


----------



## VictorBravo (Dec 12, 2007)

Chris, how does the handwriting recognition work on that?


----------



## crhoades (Dec 12, 2007)

victorbravo said:


> Chris, how does the handwriting recognition work on that?


 
Very well. Of course it depends on your handwriting. I print so it recognizes it pretty well. The nice thing is that you can leave it as handwriting and convert it later. I use the setup for meetings etc. and it works great at work. It works even better for the classroom. You end up with .wma files that can be transferred to an .mp3 player as well.


----------



## VictorBravo (Dec 12, 2007)

crhoades said:


> victorbravo said:
> 
> 
> > Chris, how does the handwriting recognition work on that?
> ...



Cool. I mostly print too and have not tried any handwriting application since 2000. It didn't work so well back then. The recording synch sounds like a remarkable tool.


----------



## Semper Fidelis (Dec 12, 2007)

crhoades said:


> Here is the ideal set up:
> 
> Tablet PC
> Notes provided by professor
> ...



Psst. The Chinese own Lenovo.


----------



## VictorBravo (Dec 12, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> Psst. The Chinese own Lenovo.



Yeah, trading with the enemy and all that--BTW, is there any computer component not made in China?


----------



## Semper Fidelis (Dec 12, 2007)

Actually, a lot of components are made in Taiwan, which the Chinese think belongs to them but the Taiwanese feel differently about.

This issue of Lenovo isn't a small one for the U.S. Military when it comes to purchasing computers that will go on our networks. Who knows what they might stick in the BIOS.

The important thing that Chris needs to ask is this: "WWRPD?"

I don't think he'd use something that is clearly benefitting the Red Chinese.


----------



## VictorBravo (Dec 12, 2007)

SemperFideles said:


> Actually, a lot of components are made in Taiwan, which the Chinese think belongs to them but the Taiwanese feel differently about.
> 
> This issue of Lenovo isn't a small one for the U.S. Military when it comes to purchasing computers that will go on our networks. Who knows what they might stick in the BIOS.
> 
> ...




Heh. Do I have to move this thread to politics?   I don't think RP has any problem with trade with China, even the red ones.

But your point about military use is an important one, I agree.


----------



## Semper Fidelis (Dec 13, 2007)

Just keeping it light. Actually, I really like Lenovo's products.


----------

