# "Dare To Be A Daniel" REALLY?? REALLY??



## N. Eshelman

Today I was perusing the Trinity Hymnal (Blue, 1961) looking for a selection of the 44th Psalm (does anyone know if one's in there?). As I perused, I came across the hymn, "Dare to Be a Daniel." 

My question: Do people really sing that song in worship? All hail Daniel's band?

What?? 

Are you serious? 

Can someone explain how the central message of this song is appropriate for Christian worship? I know that I am a psalm singer, but even if I was a hymn singer, I think that I would have a difficult time singing this song, even though it's out of a very orthodox hymnal. 




> Standing by a purpose true,
> Heeding God's command,
> Honor them, the faithful few!
> All hail to Daniel's band!
> 
> Refrain
> 
> Dare to be a Daniel,
> Dare to stand alone!
> Dare to have a purpose firm!
> Dare to make it known.
> 
> Many mighty men are lost
> Daring not to stand,
> Who for God had been a host
> By joining Daniel's band.
> 
> Refrain
> 
> Many giants, great and tall,
> Stalking through the land,
> Headlong to the earth would fall,
> If met by Daniel's band.
> 
> Refrain
> 
> Hold the Gospel banner high!
> On to vict'ry grand!
> Satan and his hosts defy,
> And shout for Daniel's band.
> 
> Refrain


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## Rich Koster

I think "the band" might be referring to his fellow captives who refused to participate in idolatry, not a musical group.


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## N. Eshelman

Rich Koster said:


> I think "the band" might be referring to his fellow captives who refused to participate in idolatry, not a musical group.



That is really funny, Rich. I didn't think about it how it could be WORSE! :LOL:


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## Backwoods Presbyterian

There are a number of questionable hymns in the Trinity Hymnal. "Dare to Be a Daniel" is in the Red Trinity Hymnal as well.


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## N. Eshelman

Backwoods Presbyterian said:


> There are a number of questionable hymns in the Trinity Hymnal. "Dare to Be a Daniel" is in the Red Trinity Hymnal as well.



It didn't make the cut, eh?

---------- Post added at 05:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:20 PM ----------

Anyone know if Psalm 44 is in the ol' Blue?


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## jennywigg

The song makes me uncomfortable, too, but can someone help me articulate why? I'd love to be able to explain it to Beth Moore-lovers, for example, but I don't know if I could. (I used to love Beth Moore studies, by the way.) In other words, could someone be my brain this afternoon?


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## Philip

19th-century revivalism dies hard, apparently.

I've never heard this one sung by a reformed congregation---I think for a reason.


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## N. Eshelman

P. F. Pugh said:


> 19th-century revivalism dies hard, apparently.
> 
> I've never heard this one sung by a reformed congregation---I think for a reason.



Well, it may not be sung by a reformed congregation, but it was approved by a General Assembly of a reformed denomination. It seems that Robley Johnston, Arthur Kuschke Jr, LeRoy Oliver, EJ Young, and Robert Marsden (Committee members) thought that it was appropriate!


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## Romans922

N. Eshelman said:


> Anyone know if Psalm 44 is in the ol' Blue?



#515, but it is only Psalm 44:20-26


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## Phil D.

Thanks a lot for this post. Now I can't get that stupid tune out of my head


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## a mere housewife

Jennifer, just one thought is that it seems to sing the praises of Daniel and his 'band', rather than those of God. It also just seems sort of emptily moralistic to me, which may tie into the first thing.


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## Rich Koster

Phil D. said:


> Thanks a lot for this post. Now I can't get that stupid tune out of my head[/QUOTE
> 
> End the day with this:
> 
> Trinity Hymnal


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## au5t1n

Oddly enough, I've found the more I've sung the psalms and been in a psalm-singing church, the more other hymns (even Reformed favorites) start to look like "Dare to be a Daniel" to me. A strange by-product of exposure to psalmody, I guess.


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## Skyler

So you guys don't recognize in church people who are willing to stand up for the cause of Christ? Because where I come from, we hear a lot about missionaries and preachers and great men of faith. 

I think it's dangerous, if not downright unbiblical, to withhold praise from people who have done something praiseworthy. It's not talking about _worshipping_ Daniel's band.

Am I missing the point here?


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## "William The Baptist"

Skyler said:


> So you guys don't recognize in church people who are willing to stand up for the cause of Christ? Because where I come from, we hear a lot about missionaries and preachers and great men of faith.
> 
> I think it's dangerous, if not downright unbiblical, to withhold praise from people who have done something praiseworthy. It's not talking about _worshipping_ Daniel's band.
> 
> Am I missing the point here?



It seems needless; why not simply imitate Christ?-instead of daring to be like Daniel. (Good alliteration though! )

Going by that line of reasoning, let's add a hymn about Pergy, or Livingstone, or William Carey, or...


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## AThornquist

Haha! Dare to be a Daniel... I seriously would feel awkward singing that in church. It wouldn't be so bad if I brought a sock puppet and he took responsibility for the singing though.




"William The Baptist" said:


> Going by that line of reasoning, let's add a hymn about Pergy, or Livingstone, or William Carey, or...



There are loads of godly examples of credobaptists and paedobaptists, but Pergy even qualifies as a papedabaptist! (And this is a reference to his place of service, and thus might need explanation...)


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## "William The Baptist"

AThornquist said:


> but Pergy even qualifies as a papedabaptist! (And this is a reference to his place of service, and thus might need explanation...)



Whaaaaaaaaaaaat? The definition of a papedabaptist seems to be lacking in my vocabulary. I think the explanation is required.


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## Pergamum

"William The Baptist" said:


> Skyler said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you guys don't recognize in church people who are willing to stand up for the cause of Christ? Because where I come from, we hear a lot about missionaries and preachers and great men of faith.
> 
> I think it's dangerous, if not downright unbiblical, to withhold praise from people who have done something praiseworthy. It's not talking about _worshipping_ Daniel's band.
> 
> Am I missing the point here?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seems needless; why not simply imitate Christ?-instead of daring to be like Daniel. (Good alliteration though! )
> 
> Going by that line of reasoning, let's add a hymn about Pergy, or Livingstone, or William Carey, or...
Click to expand...



Leah, I am working on that Pergy hym now, but I am having trouble ryming "hillbilly" and "incessant jungle diarrhea" with anything.

---------- Post added at 02:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:42 AM ----------

But, I do believe Dare to be Daniel and other kid's Sunday School songs could rightly be assembled and taught in churches. 

Many are great memory aids for children and if your church is not exclusive psalmodry then the criteria for acceptance would be songs that are theologically correct and edifying, even in non-inspired, and remembering Daniel and his friends can certainly be edifying. I see no reason for exclusion.


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## Edward

"William The Baptist" said:


> I think the explanation is required.



Look at the parenthetical.


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## py3ak

Perhaps one of the committee members had fond memories of leaping from his chair as a child when they reached the line about standing.


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## JoannaV

AThornquist said:


> There are loads of godly examples of credobaptists and paedobaptists, but Pergy even qualifies as a papedabaptist! (And this is a reference to his place of service, and thus might need explanation...)



He baptises...food?

---------- Post added at 11:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:19 PM ----------




Pergamum said:


> But, I do believe Dare to be Daniel and other kid's Sunday School songs could rightly be assembled and taught in churches.
> 
> Many are great memory aids for children and if your church is not exclusive psalmodry then the criteria for acceptance would be songs that are theologically correct and edifying, even in non-inspired, and remembering Daniel and his friends can certainly be edifying. I see no reason for exclusion.



If one wants to sing a hymn about Daniel I am sure there are better songs. You could even write one yourself. Dare to be Daniel doesn't really seem to contain much theology or history. You know? And there isn't much content that, if memorised, would help one tell the story of Daniel.


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## satz

I really don't understand what is the problem with the hymn.

Imitating the faith and good works of those who have gone before us in the faith is a central message of the bible.


1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. 
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.


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## Philip

JoannaV said:


> If one wants to sing a hymn about Daniel I am sure there are better songs.



There are:

Daniel Prayed


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## DMcFadden

satz said:


> I really don't understand what is the problem with the hymn.
> 
> Imitating the faith and good works of those who have gone before us in the faith is a central message of the bible.
> 
> 
> 1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
> Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.



I believe that the discomfort comes from the fact that so much broad evangelical homiletics tends towards the sappy moralizing of Biblical narratives. In haste to find an "application," many evangelical preachers will read the David and Goliath story as one of "fighting the Goliaths in your life" (e.g., anger, overeating, looking at naughty pictures on the internet, etc.). I heard a preacher reduce the David narrative into a list of "principles" on how to be a good friend like Jonathan.

Those most concerned about such preaching and hymnody stress the redemptive God centered theme of the Bible and the need to see Him (not David, Abraham, Moses, et. al.) as the hero of every Old Testament narrative.

Finneyesque revivalism is hopelessly semi-pelagian and man-centered and moralizing homiletics generally amounts to little more than man-centered psychologizing. Hence the wincing by the Reformed.

What is Nate complaining about, though? I attended his ordination and "seem to remember" our singing "Dare to Be a Daniel," "Father Abraham," "Shine Jesus Shine," "In the Garden," and "He Lives."


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## Danny

> Dare to be a Daniel


Sound's pretty great to me... 


---------- Post added at 11:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:52 PM ----------

But seriously though, I find that these songs would be much better with a change of perspective. Instead of focusing on what these men did for God, they should focus on God working through them with the emphasis on the working of God and not men.

---------- Post added at 11:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:52 PM ----------




DMcFadden said:


> satz said:
> 
> 
> 
> I really don't understand what is the problem with the hymn.
> 
> Imitating the faith and good works of those who have gone before us in the faith is a central message of the bible.
> 
> 
> 1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
> Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that the discomfort comes from the fact that so much broad evangelical homiletics tends towards the sappy moralizing of Biblical narratives. In haste to find an "application," many evangelical preachers will read the David and Goliath story as one of "fighting the Goliaths in your life" (e.g., anger, overeating, looking at naughty pictures on the internet, etc.). I heard a preacher reduce the David narrative into a list of "principles" on how to be a good friend like Jonathan.
> 
> Those most concerned about such preaching and hymnody stress the redemptive God centered theme of the Bible and the need to see Him (not David, Abraham, Moses, et. al.) as the hero of every Old Testament narrative.
> 
> Finneyesque revivalism is hopelessly semi-pelagian and man-centered and moralizing homiletics generally amounts to little more than man-centered psychologizing. Hence the wincing by the Reformed.
> 
> What is Nate complaining about, though? I attended his ordination and "seem to remember" our singing "Dare to Be a Daniel," "Father Abraham," "Shine Jesus Shine," "In the Garden," and "He Lives."
Click to expand...

 I agree. I once heard someone say (I can't remember, I think it was Al Mohler, Michael Horton. Someone along those lines) that the reason many people want to pull the "practical" out of the Bible and leave the doctine is because they want the law. That is, they feel they need things to do in order to earn God's favor instead of relying upon God's favor imparted to us through Christ.


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## Jack K

"Dare to be a Daniel." Oh, for the longest time I hated that song. I wrote it off as moralistic and missing God and the gospel. But as I've studied the book of Daniel more, I've come to admit that one of the points of the book actually _is_ to encourage God's people to take the sort of stand Daniel did. So I guess the song sorta gets that right, partly. It still feels to me like it'd be out of place in a worship service, though, and given the choice I'd rather sing about God.


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## jennywigg

Jack K said:


> It still feels to me like it'd be out of place in a worship service, though, and given the choice I'd rather sing about God.



Maybe that's the part that rubs me the wrong way....


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## py3ak

It might be more to the point to sing a motet based on "Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil."


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## bshpmark

If Hebrews 11 lists several people that were people of faith and the idea is that we should emulate these people in our own journey, it certainly is not wrong to honor any of God's elect who have stood fast for the faith, especially those who have given their lives for it.


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## J. Dean

I would call this song a good moral song about somebody of godly chracter, but not a hymn. 

Is it a bad song? No. But since it's not primarily about God, I wouldn't deem it appropriate for Sunday worship.


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## N. Eshelman

J. Dean said:


> I would call this song a good moral song about somebody of godly chracter, but not a hymn.
> 
> Is it a bad song? No. But since it's not primarily about God, I wouldn't deem it appropriate for Sunday worship.



I don't think that it's a BAD song either. Worship? No.


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## athanatos

"William The Baptist" said:


> It seems needless; why not simply imitate Christ?-instead of daring to be like Daniel. (Good alliteration though! )
> 
> Going by that line of reasoning, let's add a hymn about Pergy, or Livingstone, or William Carey, or...


Why not simply imitate Christ? Paul says imitate HIM, as HE imitates Christ. Not that imitating Christ is wrong; it does mean, however, that people who obediently imitate Christ are models for us too.

And honestly, while I would not require it, if someone wants to make a song about Pergamum or Livingstone or Carey or St. Paul, that's OK, provided it actually rocks.



---------- Post added at 07:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:06 PM ----------


Meanwhile, I don't really care too much for the tune. And the lyric

"Dare to stand alone!
Dare to have a purpose firm!
Dare to make it known."

Seem like they could be taken out of context and misapplied without much difficulty, especially for a Scripturally ignorant congregation.


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## he beholds

DMcFadden said:


> Those most concerned about such preaching and hymnody stress the redemptive God centered theme of the Bible and the need to see Him (not David, Abraham, Moses, et. al.) as the hero of every Old Testament narrative.



This is exactly what I was going to say; thankfully you did it first and more clearly than I ever could have.


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## Pilgrim

I don't recall ever singing this song, but it could have happened in VBS or Sunday School at some point. 

I don't have a old Trinity Hymnal handy. But as I recall, a section toward the back included hymns that the editors thought were perhaps better suited for special meetings, etc. instead of stated worship services. It's listed as Hymn #660 on the OPC page. If my memory is correct, then this would be in that section. (It's possible I'm thinking of the Baptist version of the Trinity Hymnal instead or some other hymnal entirely.) But there is no such section in the updated (red) Trinity Hymnal, which as noted also includes this hymn. 

Interestingly, _Hymns of Grace and Glory_ (FPCNA) has the song, but it's only the chorus and it's classified under "Children." That's a hymnal that many would consider (or expect) to be more populist and fundamentalist than the Trinity Hymnal. What is more, if hymnary.org is correct, it is not included in the 1991 and 2008 (Southern) Baptist Hymnals. (No doubt it would have other objectionable hymns.) It's not included in the Celebration Hymnal either.


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## yoyoceramic

_Dare to be an exilic, stiff-necked Israel_ had too many syllables. It was a pragmatic decision guys, lighten up.


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## Jeffriesw

J. Dean said:


> I would call this song a good moral song about somebody of godly chracter, but not a hymn.
> 
> Is it a bad song? No. But since it's not primarily about God, I wouldn't deem it appropriate for Sunday worship.



X's 2


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## jeffm05

N. Eshelman said:


> Can someone explain how the central message of this song is appropriate for Christian worship? I know that I am a psalm singer, but even if I was a hymn singer, I think that I would have a difficult time singing this song, even though it's out of a very orthodox hymnal.



The song is in the section of the hymnal titled "Children's Hymns." In fact Children's Hymns is written at the top of the page.

From the preface of the Blue Trinity hymnal:



> These hymns were chosen to meet the various needs of the people of God, from the simplest informal services in the home among the smallest children to the most solemn occasions in the life of the church.


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## Pilgrim

jeffm05 said:


> N. Eshelman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can someone explain how the central message of this song is appropriate for Christian worship? I know that I am a psalm singer, but even if I was a hymn singer, I think that I would have a difficult time singing this song, even though it's out of a very orthodox hymnal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The song is in the section of the hymnal titled "Children's Hymns." In fact Children's Hymns is written at the top of the page.
> 
> From the preface of the Blue Trinity hymnal:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These hymns were chosen to meet the various needs of the people of God, from the simplest informal services in the home among the smallest children to the most solemn occasions in the life of the church.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Thanks for posting that as it proves that I didn't dream it up! In the 1990 revised Trinity Hymnal (red) there is no corresponding section and this hymn is listed in the section "The Christian Life: Christian Warfare."


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## N. Eshelman

Pilgrim said:


> jeffm05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> N. Eshelman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can someone explain how the central message of this song is appropriate for Christian worship? I know that I am a psalm singer, but even if I was a hymn singer, I think that I would have a difficult time singing this song, even though it's out of a very orthodox hymnal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The song is in the section of the hymnal titled "Children's Hymns." In fact Children's Hymns is written at the top of the page.
> 
> From the preface of the Blue Trinity hymnal:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These hymns were chosen to meet the various needs of the people of God, from the simplest informal services in the home among the smallest children to the most solemn occasions in the life of the church.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thanks for posting that as it proves that I didn't dream it up! In the 1990 revised Trinity Hymnal (red) there is no corresponding section and this hymn is listed in the section "The Christian Life: Christian Warfare."
Click to expand...


I see. 

Does this mean that it is not appropriate for worship then? What does "children's hymns" mean?

---------- Post added at 03:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:57 PM ----------

I mean, I see that they are hymns for children- but does that mean that they are not to be used in Christian worship? Are they Sunday School songs? 

Is there a "senior citizens' hymns" section?


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## Jack K

N. Eshelman said:


> What does "children's hymns" mean?



In this matter I stand with the Trinity Hymnal. If part of the hymnal's purpose is to include well-loved hymns of the church, then it's good to include some that have for years been well-loved by children and put them in a hymnal intended for use by the entire church. Our kids count, too.


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## JonathanHunt

I'd agree with the line that it is a good moral song. Not a hymn. We used to sing it, as children, around the piano on a Sunday night. To me, that is this song's place in the grand scheme of things. Certainly not in the public worship of God.


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## Andrew P.C.

bshpmark said:


> If Hebrews 11 lists several people that were people of faith and the idea is that we should emulate these people in our own journey, it certainly is not wrong to honor any of God's elect who have stood fast for the faith, especially those who have given their lives for it.



It's interesting that the entire song's focus is upon Daniel's band. Here's the thing for me: we come and gather together on sunday to worship God. God is the center of our worship. He alone is the subject/focus of our dialogue with Him on the Lord's day. Why would we "all hail" daniel's band? Why would we sing of men who are "mighty... great and tall"? We should be singing about God who strengthens these men to stand everyday.

It's in a hymnal that is used for worship on the Lord's day... and that's what kills it for me.


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## Pilgrim

N. Eshelman said:


> Pilgrim said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jeffm05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> N. Eshelman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can someone explain how the central message of this song is appropriate for Christian worship? I know that I am a psalm singer, but even if I was a hymn singer, I think that I would have a difficult time singing this song, even though it's out of a very orthodox hymnal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The song is in the section of the hymnal titled "Children's Hymns." In fact Children's Hymns is written at the top of the page.
> 
> From the preface of the Blue Trinity hymnal:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These hymns were chosen to meet the various needs of the people of God, from the simplest informal services in the home among the smallest children to the most solemn occasions in the life of the church.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thanks for posting that as it proves that I didn't dream it up! In the 1990 revised Trinity Hymnal (red) there is no corresponding section and this hymn is listed in the section "The Christian Life: Christian Warfare."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I see.
> 
> Does this mean that it is not appropriate for worship then? What does "children's hymns" mean?
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:57 PM ----------
> 
> I mean, I see that they are hymns for children- but does that mean that they are not to be used in Christian worship? Are they Sunday School songs?
> 
> Is there a "senior citizens' hymns" section?
Click to expand...



To get an answer to those questions, you'd have to ask the editors (or the revision cmte in the case of the red book.) I think it is not unimaginable that one could ask such a question and get at least an unofficial answer from one of them. But if they know you are RP they may think you're just a troublemaker.  

My guess is that songs in a "Childrens" section are probably best suited for Vacation Bible School or Sunday School. But in that case, do they have to be in the hymnal? I dunno. At least the original had them set off in a different section, noting that they are best suited for occasions outside of regular worship. My recollection is that we never sang from the Children's section of the red hymnal at the PCA or OPC congregations that I attended regularly in the past, neither of which had a significant number of small children. (I doubt that would have made a difference one way or another, at least not in those particular congregations.) But at the OPC we did get somewhat edgy and sang "El Shaddai" on occasion during Sunday evening worship. Now that I recall it, during the evening worship at the OPC congregation, there were usually about 3 hymns in which members of the congregation chose what to sing. I wonder if "Dare to Be a Daniel" has ever been requested at that time? 

I can think of some songs that might qualify for a "senior citizens" section, but that probably has more to do with the preferences (and past experiences) of some who are presently of that age.


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## Pergamum

I believe if anyone were to stir up trouble in their church due to the "offense" of hearing "Dare to be a Daniel" sung, the bigger issue might not be song choice and the RPW but the attitude of the complainer.


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