Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
What motivates our obedience in heaven?
We'll be eternally grateful.I can't help but think there will be a tinge of gratitude as well since glory and thanksgiving seem to have at least some relationship to each other. (Luke 17:15,16; Rom 1:21; 1 Cor 6:20; Ps 92:1 etc.) After all, ingratitude makes the glorification of God hypocritical. (Isa 1:3)
I didn't mean to imply that all were equal. I think what I was driving at is something that I've been wrestling with for a little while.I guess I would say that the phrase "Gratitude is the only proper motivation for obedience" seems the least offensive and dangerous of all the phrases you put forth.
One of the ones that I heard the most when I was in college was, "We are no longer under law, but under grace." Sadly, I might have even used it myself. As I have gotten older, I have been horrified that it was ever used to justify sin, because it was the very opposite of what the Apostle Paul used it for in Romans 6.
What I *hear* very often from some (not all) who speak about the only motivation being gratitude is that somehow our own thoughts about what Christ has done are sufficient, in themselves, to cause us to obey.
When I am tempted, however, the thing that strikes me as more potent in my battle against sin is not an internal sense of gratitude but the fact that I am united to Christ and the power of His resurrection. In other words, the source of power to overcome temptation is the Spirit Who indwells me and unites me to the power of Christ's resurrection.
I think that there is a school in current conversation that speaks of believers as still totally depraved - as if nothing in their state has changed. They speak of the Law as burdensome. They recognize that Christ has fulfilled all righteousness for salvation and so any passage on obedience has to be re-cast to allow us to be grateful for what Christ has done because we are still impotent to do anything about sin. In other words any imperative is yet another thing we'll just end up sinning in our attempt to obey it. There is thus nothing that a believer could look to as a fruit of progress in his life. Any injunction sort of get re-treated as an imposing burden that can only result in failure if I try it and I need to fall back on realizing that Christ accomplished everything for me on the Cross.What I *hear* very often from some (not all) who speak about the only motivation being gratitude is that somehow our own thoughts about what Christ has done are sufficient, in themselves, to cause us to obey.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply, Rich. From whom are you 'hearing' this sentiment? Is there a particular denomination or school that is using this phase in order to gain more 'wiggle room' in obedience?
I don't agree. I'm not speaking of confidence springing from spiritual power but a reality that is the power of Christ's resurrection. My gratitude or apprehension of the reality may wax or wane but it doesn't change the reality of the power of Christ as the author and perfecter of His own. I didn't state that I was impelled by my apprehension of being united to Christ and the power of His resurrection. I stated that what was potent is the fact that I'm united to Christ and the power of His resurrection.When I am tempted, however, the thing that strikes me as more potent in my battle against sin is not an internal sense of gratitude but the fact that I am united to Christ and the power of His resurrection. In other words, the source of power to overcome temptation is the Spirit Who indwells me and unites me to the power of Christ's resurrection.
Rich, when I see you say that, I think it is not much different than being motivated by gratitude. You are looking to Christ and believing in his work, either for you or in you, as the foundation for your obedience. Gratitude for justification or confidence springing from spiritual power are both inherently Christ-reliant compared to a self-reliant performance-for-God mindset, which is the real dividing line.
Yes, I agree. What I've been trying to drive at is that we can view sanctification as a matter of getting an A+ on how we apprehend things. Our motivations have to be aligned just so or we have to always have the right thoughts in our mind for God to save us. I think part of the reason people fear of talking one way or the other too much is because they lose sight of Christ as the Mediator. The issue of my motivation then stands on a razor edge. I have to be thinking the right things or I drop off a cliff into legalism or antinomianism and Christ is powerless to sanctify until I regain my balance.Even warnings against disobedience, if taken as discipline from a loving Father toward those who are his children in Christ, can be a "gospel" motivation. And gratitude can be a legalistic motivation if it's served up with a helping of guilt, making one feel like he has to conjure up certain grateful feelings toward God for his obedience to have any value.
I'm not speaking of confidence springing from spiritual power but a reality that is the power of Christ's resurrection. My gratitude or apprehension of the reality may wax or wane but it doesn't change the reality of the power of Christ as the author and perfecter of His own. I didn't state that I was impelled by my apprehension of being united to Christ and the power of His resurrection. I stated that what was potent is the fact that I'm united to Christ and the power of His resurrection.
your conscious effort to obey includes a strong element of reliance. You must continue practicing faith along with repentance. Although you are in Christ, in some sense you still can live in ways that are more or less reliant on him, and part of the work you must do (all by the Spirit's power in you, of course) is to keep believing and trusting. God uses this in your growth. He gives faith a role in your sanctification. Agree?
I'm not speaking of confidence springing from spiritual power but a reality that is the power of Christ's resurrection. My gratitude or apprehension of the reality may wax or wane but it doesn't change the reality of the power of Christ as the author and perfecter of His own. I didn't state that I was impelled by my apprehension of being united to Christ and the power of His resurrection. I stated that what was potent is the fact that I'm united to Christ and the power of His resurrection.
Okay, the power is in Christ, not in how well you apprehend this fact or how deeply you bring yourself to meditate on it. I agree with that (and thought I said that). But surely you have some mindset as you apply your efforts to fight sin. You are not oblivious to Christ's work, nor should you be. You cooperate willfully. And since growth in holiness is fundamentally by Christ's power, your conscious effort to obey includes a strong element of reliance. You must continue practicing faith along with repentance. Although you are in Christ, in some sense you still can live in ways that are more or less reliant on him, and part of the work you must do (all by the Spirit's power in you, of course) is to keep believing and trusting. God uses this in your growth. He gives faith a role in your sanctification. Agree?
Rich, when I see you say that, I think it is not much different than being motivated by gratitude.
My take on it is that it is much more like being in a constant war against the flesh, the world, and the devil. It is in my redeemed nature, Yes, but the battle is so fierce that I don't ever perceive the ongoing battle as something that fades into the background.Sometimes I equate some of this as natural having been regenerate. Just like breathing is natural (God set this in action and we depend upon him to allow us to keep breathing). Some of it is a volition of the will that has been regenerated as we have an inclination prone to sin also.
The nature of citizenship in the Kingdom of God is real but we are also prone to forgetfulness. If we stripped all the parts of the Epistles out where the authors told us to remember who we are then we would be left with a greeting and a close for almost all the letters. The Epistles are literally soaked with reminders about who we are.
Sometimes I equate some of this as natural having been regenerate. Just like breathing is natural (God set this in action and we depend upon him to allow us to keep breathing). Some of it is a volition of the will that has been regenerated as we have an inclination prone to sin also.
My take on it is that it is much more like being in a constant war against the flesh, the world, and the devil. It is in my redeemed nature, Yes, but the battle is so fierce that I don't ever perceive the ongoing battle as something that fades into the background.
The illustration I've used a number of times is that I'm an American. I never had to be constantly reminded that I was an American and I never had any desire to betray my country and join forces with our enemies or sell them our secrets. My citizenship came so natural to me that I never had to be reminded of it.
The nature of citizenship in the Kingdom of God is real but we are also prone to forgetfulness. If we stripped all the parts of the Epistles out where the authors told us to remember who we are then we would be left with a greeting and a close for almost all the letters. The Epistles are literally soaked with reminders about who we are.
Sometimes we are prone to twist this into thinking "I'll grow if I just hunker down and meditate more on the gospel." I admit I've made that error on occasion. But that really isn't a faith attitude. We must remember that faith too is received, not worked up by ourselves.
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Ti 1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
It also seems that diligent meditation does come with a promise of growth and fruit as Psalm 1:2,3 state.Calvin on 2 Timothy 1:6
To stir up the gift of God. This exhortation is highly necessary; for it usually happens, and may be said to be natural, that the excellence of gifts produces carelessness, which is also accompanied by sloth; and Satan continually labors to extinguish all that is of God in us. We ought, therefore, on the other hand, to strive to bring to perfection everything that is good in us, and to kindle what is languid; for the metaphor, which Paul employs, is taken from a fire which was feeble, or that was in course of being gradually extinguished, if strength and flame were not added, by blowing upon it and by supplying new fuel. Let us therefore remember that we ought to apply to use the gifts of God, lest, being unemployed and concealed, they gather rust. Let us also remember that we should diligently profit by them, lest they be extinguished by our slothfulness.
Psa 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
Psa 1:3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
Jack I think you have made some good points here but the scriptures do seem to tell me to add to my faith diligently and vigilantly. At the same time please allow me to comment on the part of the phrase, "not worked up by ourselves." Abiding in Christ is work. Sure anything that we do by ourselves is going to be vain. But when Christ gives command it is to be recognized that He goes with us in the endeavor.
I think that's part of the problem.The meditation thing has been a particular problem area within some of the "grace-centered" circles I know. Some teachers, in their (admirable) attempts to avoid legalism, have been left with little to tell people to do except to think more about God's goodness and let it soak in. That isn't a bad thing to do in itself, but it sometimes leaves people trying really hard to meditate on God and then feeling guilty when this doesn't produce more feelings of gratitude or life change. Rich seemed to be alluding to that, and I affirmed it can be a problem. Meditating on God is good, of course. But even that can turn into a my-effort-alone burden if we aren't careful.
Jack I think you have made some good points here but the scriptures do seem to tell me to add to my faith diligently and vigilantly. At the same time please allow me to comment on the part of the phrase, "not worked up by ourselves." Abiding in Christ is work. Sure anything that we do by ourselves is going to be vain. But when Christ gives command it is to be recognized that He goes with us in the endeavor.
I'm not against work, effort, diligence, or vigilance. These are good things. But I'm against undertaking them on our own rather than in a depending, trusting, cooperative way that draws on Christ's power and goodness. "By ourselves" is the problem part. The Christian life is not something we go at alone.
The meditation thing has been a particular problem area within some of the "grace-centered" circles I know. Some teachers, in their (admirable) attempts to avoid legalism, have been left with little to tell people to do except to think more about God's goodness and let it soak in. That isn't a bad thing to do in itself, but it sometimes leaves people trying really hard to meditate on God and then feeling guilty when this doesn't produce more feelings of gratitude or life change. Rich seemed to be alluding to that, and I affirmed it can be a problem. Meditating on God is good, of course. But even that can turn into a my-effort-alone burden if we aren't careful.
I've seen far more cases where people are seldom or never exhorted to look to Christ, so my main interest is in combatting that problem. But that said, if there really are significant numbers of teachers claiming that's the only thing we may exhort, and practicing such, then I agree that would be a problem too.I think there's also an inherent problem with the idea that the only appropriate thing we can ever exhort people unto is to look to Christ. Any exhortation beyond meditating on what Christ has done is inherently legalistic or at least it's presented that way. Don't look at evidences of sanctification in your life. Don't ever threaten Hell. Don't ever tell people to stop being lazy.
This one needs to apply both ways. I've been hounded for talking about the free forgiveness that's our in Christ without making that die the death of a million qualifications with repeated assertions that we still have to work really hard at fighting sin. Of course we do. But do I really have to say it every other sentence?Whatever the text teaches, we proclaim with boldness and without making it die the death of a million qualifications
But is it really softening to include a strong emphasis on all Christ has done for you? I find that being "gospel-driven" allows a teacher at the same time to be much more forceful about commands and warnings... because he doesn't have to worry his teaching might be taken as legalism, because there's a culture of openness in confession of sin, and because the contrast between godliness and sin has been made stark. Contrary to softening anything, a strong emphasis on all Christ has done sharpens everything. At least that's how it worked for the Puritans, and how it has worked in the best "gospel-driven" churches I've known.I do believe we fear to let the full measure of God's methods of motivation take their course because we don't exegete His Word and want to soften the disciplining Hand of God
I guess my next question then would be how does one recognize between the differences you are making? Personally from where I sit it is never a bad thing to do what the scriptures say to do. I keep hearing the word legalistic a lot now days and wonder if it is being misapplied in most situations. I think Dr. Derek Thomas mentions something similar about legalism in this lecture.
I've seen far more cases where people are seldom or never exhorted to look to Christ, so my main interest is in combatting that problem.
One concern I have in the current debate is that some have slipped into language that could be taken to suggest that justification is the only part of salvation in which we must depend wholly, desperately on Christ. We don't want to end up thinking that way. Too many believers already do. This is the problem many teachers, like Dr. Chapell, are eager to address.
In fact, although sin certainly affects our fellowship with God, I would not even say that "performance" is the basis for a healthy standing regarding fellowship with God. A performance mindset misses the point that our efforts to be obedient aren't undertaken on our own in order to impress God as much as they're accomplished in cooperation with him and in constant dependence on him. We fight sin alongside our Captain.
God’s unconditional love is called his amor benevolentiae; his conditional love is called his amor complacentiae.
Jones, Mark (2013-11-10). Antinomianism: Reformed Theology's Unwelcome Guest? (pp. 86-87). P&R Publishing. Kindle Edition.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Christ’s teaching in John 14:21, confirms the point about varying degrees of communion. The distinction between God’s love of benevolence and his love of complacency enables us to understand the plain teaching of this text, so that the glorious truth of God’s unconditional love is not jettisoned for a love that is only conditional. Arminians and Roman Catholics seize upon texts like these and come to numerous unsound conclusions. But, as Turretin noted above, the love promised by the Father and Christ to those who keep Christ’s commandments refers not to God’s “affective” love (its beginning), but his “effective” love (its continuance and increase).
Tullian Tchividjian’s book, Jesus + Nothing = Everything, lacks the theological framework to deal with Christ’s words in John 14:21, 23 (and 15:10).270 Tchividjian repeatedly argues that our obedience, or lack thereof, does not affect our relationship with God. His book fails to distinguish between God’s love of benevolence and his love of complacency. Moreover, he often states things as either-or, when, in fact, the doctrine in question is more both-and. This approach goes back to the seventeenth century, when antinomian theologians never quite seemed to balance the both-and concept in their theology. Of course, one hyperbolic statement here or there, to emphasize a point more strongly, should not evoke harsh criticism from readers. But his whole book is one lengthy antinomian diatribe, and it bears a striking resemblance to the content and rhetoric of various seventeenth-century antinomian writings.271
Jones, Mark (2013-11-10). Antinomianism: Reformed Theology's Unwelcome Guest? (pp. 90-91). P&R Publishing. Kindle Edition.
GOD SEES NO SIN
The idea that God does not see any sin in the justified was a hallmark of antinomian thinking in England during the seventeenth century, especially in the 1630s and 1640s. According to Como, this assertion “was the central pillar in the doctrinal monolith of imputative antinomianism.”236 The antinomian theologian John Eaton explains this doctrine from his “imputative” perspective by arguing that Christ’s righteousness clothes believers in such away that the weaknesses in their faith and sanctification are “covered and utterly abolished from before God.”237
Jones, Mark (2013-11-10). Antinomianism: Reformed Theology's Unwelcome Guest? (p. 82). P&R Publishing. Kindle Edition.
I have not experienced any teaching that says you have to do this stuff in your own strength. Where are you hearing this teaching?
It seems an overstatement to say that Tullian T.'s thinking is "accepted and defended by a large majority of the church." Whatever one may think of him, even those who lean in his direction will usually identify him as being on the edge of the spectrum, far from the large majority. I mean, isn't that why you pick him to rail against, because his voice is one of the more extreme ones?