SeanAnderson
Puritan Board Freshman
Perhaps if we had more good confessional Reformed churches, certainly in the UK, disenchanted young Christians would flock to them?
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Part of it is the radical individualism of our day, part of it is radical antinomianism among populations of Christians.
Another major problem is churches themselves turning worship services into entertainments or Christian concerts, meaty sermons into short talks full of pap and nonsense. Some genuine believers may know little of what a biblical worship service should be, or how a church should be run and ordered according to the Bible, and that may affect their being "done" with church. It doesn't justify them, but what passes for church in many cases is unbiblical and, also, frankly soul-sapping and depressing, and some believers don't know of anything better, or haven't been encouraged to develop a taste for it.
This I know. I am a member that is starving for something other than a Christian concert. I want to participate in the singing and I now know why I did not sing even before I came to the conclusion of EP. I can't "sing" and I surely can't dance. Though I suspect I could sing a psalm lead by a man who has the same lack of today's talent that leads our church service. I know I have said this in the past here but in the past 30 years at PCA churches with the past 8 or so years as a faithful regular member I have yet to hear ONE psalm sung. The only things keeping me at my church,which I do love, is our pastors sermons and teaching, benedictions, and the opportunity to contribute financially to The Cause of Christ. The Lord's supper I do enjoy even though it is Welch's.
Now resettled near Los Angeles, the [Rob Bell] no longer belongs to a traditional church. “We have a little tribe of friends,” Bell said. “We have a group that we are journeying with. There’s no building. We’re churching all the time. It’s more of a verb for us.”
He’s still a fan of churches — depending on the context.
“Churches can be places that help people grow and help people connect with others and help people connect with the great issues of our day,” Bell said. “They can also be toxic, black holes of despair. My thinking is, it depends on where you are in your life. One of the most extraordinary things I’ve done since I left Mars Hill is be with people and engage with people who would never step foot in a church.”
Then I wonder if this "done" crowd is a hoax. A sham alibi. A ploy by false teachers to steal some unawares from Christ's flock and scatter who he can with fear tactics. "See, you aren't the only one who feels this way." "I know how you feel." "Does your church feel right?" Apostasy is in every age and culture. If idle hands are the devil's workshop, feelings are the overseers. I'm not surprised that in a country of 40 million believers, whose "greatest" industry might be fielding gossip and slander, the evil one deploys on a larger scale. That doesn't mean we have a meltdown of the church in America on our hands, it means we need to be watchful of our feelings.As a side note, I followed the links of the author and some of his "friends" and found these guys are very Emergent. Holy Soup and Lifetree Cafe are most of that ilk.
2 Timothy 3:1-9 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith. But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as Jannes’s and Jambres’s folly was also.
This is critically important and the main reason I wonder about "erasing" members from the church rolls, even if a person has moved (and the church hasn't been contacted for transference of membership).... should firstly be privately admonished by the elders
People really can get good teaching at home through sermonaudio, and they can pray at home just as they can pray at church. Ultimately, it's love that holds people in church.
People really can get good teaching at home through sermonaudio, and they can pray at home just as they can pray at church. Ultimately, it's love that holds people in church.
Caroline,
What is the Confession getting at (as I posted in the OP) that there is no ordinary possibility of salvation outside the visible Church?
What, precisely, do you think the Confession has in mind as far as why it believes the local Church is somehow linked to salvation itself such that, outside of it, a person is not ordinarily saved?
That was a good post Caroline. Sometimes when working with patients at the hospital that are very ornery I treat them with love thinking that they were a baby and a child once that was dearly loved by the parents. Of course this thought comes from the love I have of my children which should convey how Our Lord loves us in like manner.
People really can get good teaching at home through sermonaudio, and they can pray at home just as they can pray at church. Ultimately, it's love that holds people in church.
Caroline,
What is the Confession getting at (as I posted in the OP) that there is no ordinary possibility of salvation outside the visible Church?
What, precisely, do you think the Confession has in mind as far as why it believes the local Church is somehow linked to salvation itself such that, outside of it, a person is not ordinarily saved?
I am sorry if I was unclear on that point. The law and the prophets hang on the commands to love the Lord your God and your neighbor. That is something that people who think they can just learn at home often miss. The greatest commandment is not to learn as much about God as you can, but to love Him. And Jesus said to Peter that if he loved Him, he should feed His sheep.
Furthermore, Jesus said that those who love Him should obey His commandments. It is utterly impossible to obey the Ten Commandments alone. The commandments require us not only to refrain from doing evil, but to do good--to uphold our neighbor's good name, to promote the wealth and outward estate of others (as well as ourselves), a charitable frame of spirit toward our neighbor, etc. (Quoting from the WSC, obviously). These are impossible to accomplish alone. Therefore, the idea that anyone CAN live a Christian life in isolation is simply factually incorrect (unless providence has forced that isolation upon him in the form of a desert island or something of that sort, and even then, it should be a great trial to him, not a blessing.)
The Proverbs say it best: "A man who isolates himself seeks his own desire; he rages against all wise judgment." (Prov. 18:1)
Edited to add a small analogy for further clarification: If someone ever says to me, "I am your friend and I would do anything for you, but I hate your husband and I cannot bear to be around him. I think your children are annoying and I do not like them, so please leave them at home when you visit me," then I would not consider that person my friend. I would say, "If you love me, then for that reason alone, you should be kind to my husband and my children. I love them, so when you are hateful to them, you are hateful to me, and when you are kind to them, you are kind to me."
I often wonder how it is that people (knowing that this sort of connection is true even in human relationships) think they can approach God and tell Him with a straight face that they love Him but hate His bride. Or (to use another biblical frame of reference) that they love Him but can't stand His other children. How do they not see how offensive that is?
We ought to always bear in mind that these are God's children. Even the pastor (as we are tempted to criticize) is one of God's children--someone for whom Christ died. If God is so kind to them, then maybe I should be too. After all, it is the same grace poured out to me.
Bible Fellowship Church
I think that there is a key statement in the article that is very telling and I think is probably the motivator for those who are leaving: "I’m tired of being lectured to. I’m just done with having some guy tell me what to do.” That statement is prefixed with the feeling that they have "learned it all". It seems to me at least by what the article laid out is that it's a rebellion against church authority and having to submit to the authority of the church. Also notice how the quote views the position as simply, 'some guy'. This just may be a natural outworking of BK philosophy; I'll have it my way or no way at all.
This actually may not be a bad thing that's happening. The author of the article seems to think that it's problematic due to the nature of there being less people around to serve and provide financially. I see it as the Father pruning His church to refine it as gold in the fire.
I believe that those who are "done with church" are not true believers in the first place.