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As I read the situation, it is quibbling over matters that are on the other side of a divide that marks a departure from the norm.
71CH,Hi everyone,
Would you allow a non-communicant member of your church to be on the Sunday morning praise team? For example, a middle school student who is not yet a communicant member of the church, but Lord willing will be in a future date. Why or why not?
Thanks.
slightly tongue-in-cheek... What exactly is a "praise team?"
slightly tongue-in-cheek... What exactly is a "praise team?"
There are certain individuals--ordained men--who are tasked by heaven with the high and holy duty of "leading praise," along with leading God's people in the rest of their worship endeavor: prayer, Word and Sacrament, etc. Leading in worship is a function flowing from the act of ordination. It is "ministerial," and we have officers of the church for that purpose.
What I'm getting at is a criticism of the idea, principles, and language already present and lying behind the thread title and question asked.
In other words, for the congregation to be "led" in some aspect of worship by those who are unordained (and, in the case of women, unordainable) is already challenging the historic Reformed and Presbyterian understanding of everything that should be happening in the formal summons of the congregation for a stated worship service--between the Call, and the Benediction that dismisses them.
So, what extra difference does it make if a non-communicant member is employed in the work of leading, to which few (or perhaps none) of the present leaders are called? As I read the situation, it is quibbling over matters that are on the other side of a divide that marks a departure from the norm.
Why is a middle schooler leading in singing in a church?
You seem to be assuming an EP position - which I don't think applies to the OP's situation.Why does a congregation need a leader in singing? Unless you're talking about someone selecting the tune for a psalter selection, then getting everyone started from the same pitch. If you mean someone up front waving his (often her) arms around, I just don't get it.
I think it'd be the same for hymns or other songs even though she said Psalter selection. I'd even say from my experience that it can be helpful to have a strong voice leading even with accompaniment, but singing a capella without someone carrying the singing can be... painful.You seem to be assuming an EP position - which I don't think applies to the OP's situation.
The congregation in question, as far as I understand it, sees itself as on the "conservative" side of the PCA as well.
In one PCA church that I am acquainted with, they had the pleasure of receiving new members into the congregation. Imagine the surprise when these new members were the people who not only have been leading worship for a long time, but actually choosing the songs sung by the congregation each Lord's Day. I am flabbergasted by this.
Based ONLY on the information presented, I don't understand your concerns. If they were believers who were transferring membership, I don't see any problems with them getting involved in the church in areas where they are competent prior to completing a new members class and joining.
If you have issues with the songs chosen, that would be a separate issue, independent with the membership one.
And now let me tell you a real shocker. We've had men preach from the pulpit that are not only not associated with the local congregation; they aren't even a member of North Texas Presbytery. Your same arguments ought to apply.
if the "singing of psalms [or songs] with grace in the heart" is a public means of grace
I'm not sure I'm ready to concede that point, subject to further edification from my betters here.
I've tended to consider the means of grace as being hearing the word and hearing it preached, the sacraments, and prayer.
Q. 154. What are the outward means whereby Christ communicates to us the benefits of his mediation?
A. The outward and ordinary means whereby Christ communicates to his church the benefits of his mediation, are all his ordinances; especially the Word, sacraments, and prayer; all which are made effectual to the elect for their salvation.
"And, because singing of psalms is of all other the most proper ordinance for expressing of joy and thanksgiving, let some pertinent psalm or psalms be sung for that purpose, before or after the reading of some portion of the word suitable to the present business."
Surely singing is meant to be edifying to the congregation, no?
Here's the relevant part of the WLC:
Well WCF 21 would suggest that its part of the ministry of the Word as such
Is it an ordinance?
DPW would suggest
No, it is to worship God.
True, I posted that to show Westminster's understanding of the means of grace and then cross reference it with WCF 21. It is not meant to be exhaustive since it says "all his ordinances; especially..." and then WCF21 indicates that reading, hearing, preaching, and singing are comprehended under the ministry of the Word.I don't see anything in there about singing.
Are you engaging with me in good faith here? This is enumerating the parts of the ordinary worship of God, i.e. the ordinances of God for worship. You say that singing is worship but not a means of edifying the the body. WCF 21 lists the preaching of the word and the sacraments as parts of worship. Are they not means of edifying the body either? WLC 154 notes that these ordinances are the ordinary means of grace. ("The outward and ordinary means whereby Christ communicates to his church the benefits of his mediation, are all his ordinances").WCF 21 is about worship of God.
If so then it falls under WLC 154 quoted above, which indicates that all the ordinances are means of grace.Singing? BCO 50-4 lists it as such.
Of course not, but it was composed by the Assembly alongside the Standards and as such is useful for exegeting the original meaning of the Standards to prevent us from drifting into subjective and convenient interpretations.Not a document of the PCA, although useful as to the traditions of the church.