Bishop N. T. Wright-ism

Status
Not open for further replies.
Brother - would we say that Wright is closer to Kuyper than Piper on the nature and "purpose" of the atonement?

In a sense, yes. In a sense, no. Wright sees a cosmic element (creation being recapitulated in Christ, per Ephesians 1:10), and that certainly overlaps with Kuyper in some areas (and with Dutch Neo-Calvinism in general). Nonetheless, Kuyper and Bavinck were a bit more forceful on penal substitution than Wright is.
 
In a sense, yes. In a sense, no. Wright sees a cosmic element (creation being recapitulated in Christ, per Ephesians 1:10), and that certainly overlaps with Kuyper in some areas (and with Dutch Neo-Calvinism in general). Nonetheless, Kuyper and Bavinck were a bit more forceful on penal substitution than Wright is.
Copy that. Thank you (as always)
 
So no direct citations from Wright himself? I am not reading second hand sources. Rachel did a great job exposing the Doug Wilson sex scandals, but on this issue I would rather go directly to the source. I've read almost everything he is written, but some of it was over a decade ago.

The last article is misleading. He believes Jesus has a divine nature. He is simply attacking a certain post-Enlightenment view of "knowledge." What do we mean by "knowledge?" Do we have in mind Gettier? Plato? Plantinga? Polyani?

If Knowledge = justified, true belief, then we have to ask ourselves, "Did Jesus 'know' he was God?" That means, did Jesus have to continually meet internal criteria to justify his believing the claim he was God? Ironically, that is nigh-blasphemous. Despite himself, NT Wright came out conservative on this one!
Jesus knew from an early age that he was the Son of God, for he was in the temple, and remarked to his parents was in His fathers house, so he indeed did now that self truth.
 
And I am sure Piper would admit some "renewal" aspect to the atonement. He's read enough of Ladd to see that.
Yes, but he would also see it in terms as first and foremost being individuals sinners being reconciled back to God through the penal substitution death of Christ on their behalf.
 
In a sense, yes. In a sense, no. Wright sees a cosmic element (creation being recapitulated in Christ, per Ephesians 1:10), and that certainly overlaps with Kuyper in some areas (and with Dutch Neo-Calvinism in general). Nonetheless, Kuyper and Bavinck were a bit more forceful on penal substitution than Wright is.
Yes, both of them would see Justification much more in the classical reformed sense than Wright does.
 
Jesus knew from an early age that he was the Son of God, for he was in the temple, and remarked to his parents was in His fathers house, so he indeed did now that self truth.

That is not what I asked. Did Jesus "know" in terms of "justified, true belief?" Yes, Jesus "knows" he is God, but not because of standard accounts of knowledge, which entail justified, true belief. That means he would have to meet conditions for his knowledge that he is God.

I think that is what Wright is getting at. NTW is notorious for never defining his terms like that.
 
Last edited:
Albert Einstein once said "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." Perhaps Wright doesn't understand himself either, or perhaps he doesn't want anyone to understand him.
He at times seems to be saying his theology id a way that will pass through others, without alerting them to what his real views are on the issues.
 
Albert Einstein once said "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." Perhaps Wright doesn't understand himself either, or perhaps he doesn't want anyone to understand him.

He can explain some things simply. And to be honest, most people would probably trip on Gettiers Problem.
 
He is outside the reformed tradition, and yet seems that many have taken to his slant on theology.
He at times seems to be saying his theology id a way that will pass through others, without alerting them to what his real views are on the issues.
He gets the big picture to be sure and has eased his prior views. However, he flips things around and that's where it goes wrong.
No he does not clearly define terms which is what frustrates us confessional folk as well as him and wondering why people get on him. If he talks theology he should be clearer or just not comment. He does neither. And it is unfortunate many of those claiming to be reformed became enamoured with his theology and they broke away to form the FV.
David, this is pretty well-trodden ground especially on this forum and elsewhere. I disagree agree with Wright and think in a lot of writes he is better not read, the Reformed folk get his big picture ideas without the error. He does not however, view the Bible asfull of error..
 
About "knowing he was God." Is knowledge being used in the sense of I know that this reaction happens in a chemical test tube, or I know jet fuel can't melt steel beams?" Or is it being used in a covenantal, relational sense of Father and Son?

That's what Wright is getting at. I was a big fan of Wright's take on Jesus and resurrection ten years ago. I'm not as impressed now
 
He gets the big picture to be sure and has eased his prior views. However, he flips things around and that's where it goes wrong.
No he does not clearly define terms which is what frustrates us confessional folk as well as him and wondering why people get on him. If he talks theology he should be clearer or just not comment. He does neither. And it is unfortunate many of those claiming to be reformed became enamoured with his theology and they broke away to form the FV.
David, this is pretty well-trodden ground especially on this forum and elsewhere. I disagree agree with Wright and think in a lot of writes he is better not read, the Reformed folk get his big picture ideas without the error. He does not however, view the Bible asfull of error..
My main frustration on reading him is that he seems to have bad theology on certain issues, but then runs away from actually stating clearly what he believes , as he would know that doing that would make him seem suspect. Also, seems that he is trying to build a theology that would allow us to come back home to church of Rome in some fashion.
 
My main frustration on reading him is that he seems to have bad theology on certain issues, but then runs away from actually stating clearly what he believes , as he would know that doing that would make him seem suspect. Also, seems that he is trying to build a theology that would allow us to come back home to church of Rome in some fashion.

Part of the problem is Wright is talking to different audiences. When he is addressing NT scholars he is remarkably clear and effective. His book on the Resurrection is the best thing ever written on the topic. The danger is when he writes popular stuff. Whether its Sproul or Macarthur or Wright, popular theology is always a step down.

You won't find him "running away" in his Christian Origins series. He more or less owns the battlefield.
 
My main frustration on reading him is that he seems to have bad theology on certain issues, but then runs away from actually stating clearly what he believes , as he would know that doing that would make him seem suspect. Also, seems that he is trying to build a theology that would allow us to come back home to church of Rome in some fashion.
I agree. I do not think he waffles on inerrancy though he does refer to deutro-Isaiah. He does stick his nose in things he knows nothing about and then wonders why people jump on him. No disagreement there. I think most people feel the same way.
 
Part of the problem is Wright is talking to different audiences. When he is addressing NT scholars he is remarkably clear and effective. His book on the Resurrection is the best thing ever written on the topic. The danger is when he writes popular stuff. Whether its Sproul or Macarthur or Wright, popular theology is always a step down.

You won't find him "running away" in his Christian Origins series. He more or less owns the battlefield.
His take though on the so called New Pauline Perspective does seem to have more problems within his theology than he lets on when he writes/talks on it. His viewpoint on how the reformation and basically all of have misunderstood the Pauline Justification theology seems to be really strange to me.
 
I agree. I do not think he waffles on inerrancy though he does refer to deutro-Isaiah. He does stick his nose in things he knows nothing about and then wonders why people jump on him. No disagreement there. I think most people feel the same way.
His view on inerrancy seems to be somewhat different then what we would normally set it as meaning though. His view on the authorship of certain books seems suspect also.
 
His view on inerrancy seems to be somewhat different then what we would normally set it as meaning though. His view on the authorship of certain books seems suspect also.

We've already been over this. He doesn't waffle on authorship. I wish he said "inerrant," but since he doesn't because of certain connotations the word has in 20th century Evangelicalism, I don't lose sleep over it. Further, by Anglican standards he is a fundamentalist.
 
His take though on the so called New Pauline Perspective does seem to have more problems within his theology than he lets on when he writes/talks on it. His viewpoint on how the reformation and basically all of have misunderstood the Pauline Justification theology seems to be really strange to me.

Luther said the church had justification wrong for 1,000 years (and the Church did). I thinK NTW is wrong on justification, but the claim "you guys have had it wrong" is also a claim we made 500 years ago.
 
Luther said the church had justification wrong for 1,000 years (and the Church did). I thinK NTW is wrong on justification, but the claim "you guys have had it wrong" is also a claim we made 500 years ago.
True, but would think that NT Wright viewpoint, as it does conflict with the Reformers viewpoint on Pauline Justification, requires him to be able to support it much better than he has been able to, as still see him as trying to bridge a way back to the church of Rome and unity now.
 
We've already been over this. He doesn't waffle on authorship. I wish he said "inerrant," but since he doesn't because of certain connotations the word has in 20th century Evangelicalism, I don't lose sleep over it. Further, by Anglican standards he is a fundamentalist.
He may be seen as being that in his own church circles, but how about as say reformed or Baptists would tend to use that term of Inerrancy?
 
He may be seen as being that in his own church circles, but how about as say reformed or Baptists would tend to use that term of Inerrancy?

He doesn't hold to inerrancy the way a Baptist does. We've already established that. Yet he believes in the supernatural, virgin birth, resurrection, historical Jesus, etc. I'm not sure what moving from infallibility to inerrancy adds to the package.
 
True, but would think that NT Wright viewpoint, as it does conflict with the Reformers viewpoint on Pauline Justification, requires him to be able to support it much better than he has been able to, as still see him as trying to bridge a way back to the church of Rome and unity now.

You didn't use a subject pronoun, so I am not sure what you are asking me. He has written almost 2500 pages on Paul. I haven't read them all. I don't think he is trying to bridge back to Rome. He knows Rome won't have him, given his views on Sola Scriptura, souls Christus, etc.
 
True, but would think that NT Wright viewpoint, as it does conflict with the Reformers viewpoint on Pauline Justification, requires him to be able to support it much better than he has been able to, as still see him as trying to bridge a way back to the church of Rome and unity now.
He does call it a great ecumenical doctrine sure. Don't misunderstand that he himself is building that bridge. Unfortunately, others have seen it to be so (FVers, et al). When he argues against imputed righteousness he unwittingly argues against Rome's infused righteousness. Like Jacob, he has too much Protestant baggage even if he is not Reformed.
There are at lewst two foundations of the NPP that have been demolished. That Second temple Judaism was wholely gracious and that righteousness language does not have much to do with righteousness as we see it. The latter was debunked by James Barr (no evangelical himself) long before the NPP got off the ground.
Nevertheless, Wright has moderated his views. If I recall correctly it may have been you in a thread awhile back that I gave advice not to jump on debunking things before you are strong in your views first. Plus, Wright and the NPP seems to be fading due to the backlash that occurred and its subsequent refutations.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top