What is the role of the Deacon in a Presbyterian church then? In Baptists churches, we tend to see them as handling the financial and physical requirements of the church building and maintenance, but not involved in spiritual direction and leadership.
Women deacons as church officers
- Thread starter Jeri Tanner
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I changed the wording in my OP from “women ordained and installed to the office of deacon” to “women ordained to the office of deacon,” because I didn’t have mere installation or commissioning in mind (although that’s very troubling on its own).I have in mind those few conservative Presbyterian denominations that do currently ordain women to the office. In one of them at least, part of the reasoning is that they view ‘office’ differently than do those who are opposed to women ordination. They hold that office does not automatically mean authority, and that ordination to an office does not mean authority.
Where, historically, does this position come from?
Where, historically, does this position come from?
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
I believe, based on 1 Tim directed to men and the obvious challenges in the NT epistles where woman are seemingly carrying the nomenclature.
David, context determines how the Greek word is to be understood. It’s variously translated ministers, servants, and deacons. The word is applied to all kinds of church members in Scripture, but only in 1 Timothy is a description of the qualifications for office of deacon given (and one qualification is “husband of one wife”).
Wasn't Phoebe though called one? And where would that violate the scriptures to have a female deacon, if she was not involved in assuming roles that only the clergy and Elders can do in the local church?
David, it’s the view that women may hold office as a deacon that’s the problem (with installation and commissioning of women to only the title and duties of deacon also being problematic).
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Jake
Puritan Board Senior
I guess this comes down to semantics: what does "office" mean? I think of "office" in a more general sense of a specially designated role that is publicly known. I think the classic Webster definitions 1 and 2 fit with this, without necessarily being about authority: http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/office
Because of what I understand to be the purpose of deacons in the New Testament, I do not think Paul saying "For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree" (I Tim 3:13) thus means that deacons have an authoritative role in the church because the word "office" is used. Furthermore, as far as I can tell, the underlying Greek doesn't even use a word for "office" here as far as I can tell, and it's one of the few places the English word shows up in the Bible.
Really where it gets confusing then is with the Westminster Standards' use of the word, such as in Chapter 30. The beginning of the chapter entrusts the governing authority of the church to officers. I've always understood that to be referring to the elders of the church, but when officers is defined in the
Form of Presbyterial Church-Government, it includes "pastors, teachers, and other church-governors, and deacons" as the officers of the church. If the several references to "officer" in chapter 30 of the Confession includes deacons, I would have to disagree with the Standards here, as I do not believe they have this authority and I believe the office of deacon is distinct from elder.
Edward
Puritanboard Commissioner
No, while the deacons are subordinate to the elders, in the PCA they have authority directly from the BCO.
No, the PCA ordains deacons. It is an office held for life. (or until removed for cause, or ordination as an elder).
I've rotated on and off the active diaconate several time, but even when I'm not 'active' attending the monthly meetings and voting as a deacon, I'm still called upon to serve as a deacon.
Jake, it seems like surely the qualifications for both elder and deacon, given together as they are in 1 Timothy 3 with the “likewise” at verse 8, speak of two unique positions in the leadership of the church (with “office” the English word chosen to describe the positions, for whatever reason. There is such a close connection between the two offices, they do seem on a par with each other.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Jeri, Agreed. The offices are parallel with differing specialties.
In reading a bit about the issues today, it’s notable that the interest in ordaining women as deacons in U.S. Presbyterianism grew in the times of the women’s suffrage movement. In an article by B.B. Warfield, which I believe has been referenced before on the PB, he speaks of the importance of ‘woman’s work’ in the church and how to make way for that by ordaining them to office (but no mention of Titus 2)...
Jake
Puritan Board Senior
Yes, I agree that elder and deacon are two unique positions in the church with a close connection, but I think the office of elder includes the responsibilities of the deacons (such as in Acts 6 – when the responsibilities were too great, others were delegated particular tasks), but I don't think the opposite is true.
I guess I'm wondering now in this conversation: am I misunderstanding the Reformed view of deacons? I thought I agreed with what I read in Calvin and the Presbyterian Form of Church Government on the issue. The latter says:
"The Scripture doth hold out deacons as distinct officers in the church.
Whose office is perpetual. To whose office it belongs not to preach the word, or administer the sacraments, but to take special care in distributing to the necessities of the poor."
And Calvin, "Scripture specially gives the name of deacons to those whom the Church appoints to dispense alms, and take care of the poor, constituting them as it were stewards of the public treasury of the poor" and "The care of the poor was committed to deacons."
However, it seems some are saying there is leadership or authority attached to deacons. While I admit there is a certain amount of leadership attached to understanding how to care for the poor for example, I don't think that makes them leaders in the same way elders are.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
in my opinion, their leadership is in the fact alone that they are officers in the church, with different occupations than the elders.A good example would be to consider that elders should not come out of their lanes and into the lanes of the deacon when it comes to the job description of their employment.
This goes back to what you said in post #37- the Standards do clearly say that deacons form a part of the governing authority of the church. I would be very hesitant to disagree with them here, though I may not fully understand the issues yet. This apparently remained the view of the faithful Presbyterian churches for nearly 200 years.
Yes, it comes down to that view of ‘office.’
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Here is a free read on Google Books where Benjamin Merkle considers the office of deacon 'a lesser office', to which I would disagree.
https://books.google.com/books?id=_...con is not a lesser office than elder&f=false
https://books.google.com/books?id=_...con is not a lesser office than elder&f=false
Edward
Puritanboard Commissioner
"It is their duty also to develop the grace of liberality in the members of the church" PCA BCO 9.2
Seems to me to be a bit difficult to carry out that duty unless one had some authority and showed some leadership. Indeed, all of 9.2 points to a need to show some initiative.
RBachman
Puritan Board Freshman
Very interesting discussion. To circle back on the original question (I think)- I would leave a church that ordains officially or unofficially officers, leaders, etc. Who are Biblically unqualified. This includes women and men. Women by gender but also men who are divorced, haven’t cared for their family well, have a bad report outside of the church etc. We focus on women because that the latest front for Satan and his followers in the visible church. But as the now former Elder white, who celebrated murder, demonstrates, there are plenty of men who have no business being pastors, officers or members in God’s visible church. So I would like us to exercise greater care with all church leaders regardless of the particular definitions to keep satan’s followers out. The greater threat is not that a woman might be ordained a deacon, it is that there are ordained men pushing for this against the scripture.
JimmyH
Puritan Board Senior
I'm under the impression that there is indeed a difference in authority between a ruling elder and a deacon, at least in the OPC, with the ruling elder having authority to use Scripture to exhort and correct. The deacon to use Scripture to edify and support/comfort. I used bold text to highlight the distinction between the pastor and the ruling elder, which sort of seem lumped together by that title up until the bolded text.
From the OPC Book Of Church Order 2015 ;
In the case of a ruling elder :
The office of ruling elder is based upon the kingship of our Lord Jesus Christ, who provided for his church officers who should rule in his name. Paul and Barnabas “appointed . . . elders in every church”; and Paul commanded that those who “rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and in teaching.” In this passage the Scriptures distinguish between elders who labor particularly in the Word and in doctrine—usually called ministers or pastors—and elders who join with the minister in the government and discipline of the church—generally called ruling elders. It is the duty and privilege of ruling elders, in the name and by the authority of our ascended king, to rule over particular churches, and, as servants of our great shepherd, to care for his flock. Holy Scripture enjoins them: “Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of God, which he purchased with his own blood.” As a consequence, ruling elders must be zealous in maintaining the purity of the ministration of the Word and sacraments. They must conscientiously exercise discipline and uphold the good order and peace of the church. With love and humility they should promote faithfulness on the part of both elders and deacons in the discharge of their duties. Moreover, they should have particular regard to the doctrine and conduct of the minister of the Word, in order that the church may be edified, and may manifest itself as the pillar and ground of the truth.
In the case of a deacon :
The office of deacon is based upon the solicitude and love of Christ for his own people. So tender is our Lord’s interest in their temporal needs that he considers what is done unto one of the least of his brethren as done unto him. For he will say to those who have ministered to his little ones: “I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in; naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.” In the beginning the apostles themselves ministered to the poor, but subsequently, in order that they might be able to devote themselves wholly to prayer and the ministry of the Word, they committed that responsibility to others, having directed the people to choose men of good report, full of the Holy Spirit and of wisdom. Since the days of the apostles the church has recognized the care of the poor as a distinct ministry of the church committed to deacons. The duties of deacons consist of encouraging members of the church to provide for those who are in want, seeking to prevent poverty, making discreet and cheerful distribution to the needy, praying with the distressed and reminding them of the consolations of Holy Scripture.
From the OPC Book Of Church Order 2015 ;
In the case of a ruling elder :
The office of ruling elder is based upon the kingship of our Lord Jesus Christ, who provided for his church officers who should rule in his name. Paul and Barnabas “appointed . . . elders in every church”; and Paul commanded that those who “rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and in teaching.” In this passage the Scriptures distinguish between elders who labor particularly in the Word and in doctrine—usually called ministers or pastors—and elders who join with the minister in the government and discipline of the church—generally called ruling elders. It is the duty and privilege of ruling elders, in the name and by the authority of our ascended king, to rule over particular churches, and, as servants of our great shepherd, to care for his flock. Holy Scripture enjoins them: “Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of God, which he purchased with his own blood.” As a consequence, ruling elders must be zealous in maintaining the purity of the ministration of the Word and sacraments. They must conscientiously exercise discipline and uphold the good order and peace of the church. With love and humility they should promote faithfulness on the part of both elders and deacons in the discharge of their duties. Moreover, they should have particular regard to the doctrine and conduct of the minister of the Word, in order that the church may be edified, and may manifest itself as the pillar and ground of the truth.
In the case of a deacon :
The office of deacon is based upon the solicitude and love of Christ for his own people. So tender is our Lord’s interest in their temporal needs that he considers what is done unto one of the least of his brethren as done unto him. For he will say to those who have ministered to his little ones: “I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in; naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.” In the beginning the apostles themselves ministered to the poor, but subsequently, in order that they might be able to devote themselves wholly to prayer and the ministry of the Word, they committed that responsibility to others, having directed the people to choose men of good report, full of the Holy Spirit and of wisdom. Since the days of the apostles the church has recognized the care of the poor as a distinct ministry of the church committed to deacons. The duties of deacons consist of encouraging members of the church to provide for those who are in want, seeking to prevent poverty, making discreet and cheerful distribution to the needy, praying with the distressed and reminding them of the consolations of Holy Scripture.
timfost
Puritan Board Senior
Before deacons, it was the elder that took on all responsibilities. The elder was put over all matters of both body and soul. Since it was determined that the elder's time was better spent in the Word and prayer, the task of caring for body and soul was delegated to two separate offices (as I understand it).
Are matters of the soul under authority but not matters of the body? It seems that saying one office is a matter of authority and the other is not does not account for a) the fact that matters of body and soul were first both under the authority of elder and b) the fact that both body and soul need to be governed.
It was men who were to be chosen in Acts 6:3 and it is men addressed in Timothy and Titus precisely because these offices carried authority.
Does elder (presbyteros) ever apply to a woman?
"Do not rebuke an older man [presbyteros] but exhort him as a father, younger men as brothers, older women [presbyteros] as mothers younger women as sisters, with all purity." (1 Tim. 5:1-2)
Although the context clearly speaks of age, the word presbyteros is used. Women certainly are to minister. Older women should be respected. To interpret an office from passages like these is, in my opinion, bad exegesis.
Are matters of the soul under authority but not matters of the body? It seems that saying one office is a matter of authority and the other is not does not account for a) the fact that matters of body and soul were first both under the authority of elder and b) the fact that both body and soul need to be governed.
It was men who were to be chosen in Acts 6:3 and it is men addressed in Timothy and Titus precisely because these offices carried authority.
Does elder (presbyteros) ever apply to a woman?
"Do not rebuke an older man [presbyteros] but exhort him as a father, younger men as brothers, older women [presbyteros] as mothers younger women as sisters, with all purity." (1 Tim. 5:1-2)
Although the context clearly speaks of age, the word presbyteros is used. Women certainly are to minister. Older women should be respected. To interpret an office from passages like these is, in my opinion, bad exegesis.
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This seems like a great point, Tim. We tend to think a great deal of the authority needed for those who teach, but too little of the reasons for authority needed for those who govern in practical matters concerning physical needs. But in the Bible, God sure places great importance on our physical lives and on the church caring for them; what a lovely thing you’ve pointed out. “Both body and soul need to be governed.”
Deacons seemed to be though involved with church functions such as business issues for today, not in the teaching and spiritual leadership roles of the pastors and Elders.
The Bible does not anywhere under the NC support that women are allowed to function as either a pastor or an Elder, but since deacon seems to not be in the same type of office as those 2 are, why would women be excluded from being a deaconess?
Beyond even what is stated there for us, what do the scriptures say that be against a woman being appointed as a deaconess in a church? Not to be a pastor or Elder, as scriptures prohibit those roles, but what just that role?
What does the scriptures themselves state to us the role of the deacon is though? My understanding would be that it prohibits women from either office of pastor/Elder, but since deacon seems to be of a lower position, what would prohibit a godly woman from performing that function?
Afterthought
Puritan Board Senior
Rutherford says concerning the order of widows,
"Againe, that this Widow had some charge or service in the Church, (I meane not any Ministeriall office, for she was not ordained as the Deacon, Acts 6. with imposition of hands) I prove from the Text"
He says the order of widows had a "charge" or "service" in the church and distinguishes this from a "Ministeriall office." The office includes "ordination," which belongs to the Deacon. While further analysis may be necessary, it would seem then that Rutherford viewed church office as invested with authority, in contrast to the service or charge provided by the order of widows.
So far as the duties of Deacons go, Jus Divnium refers Calvin's "two classes" to belong to one office, states that Deacons are an ordinance of Christ (which would seem to imply they have authority from Christ to do their duty), that they distinct from all other church officers, that their duties are summed up in helping and showing mercy. They then refer to Rutherford's Due Right (linked to above) for further argumentation to those who scruple the distinct office of Deacon.
"Againe, that this Widow had some charge or service in the Church, (I meane not any Ministeriall office, for she was not ordained as the Deacon, Acts 6. with imposition of hands) I prove from the Text"
He says the order of widows had a "charge" or "service" in the church and distinguishes this from a "Ministeriall office." The office includes "ordination," which belongs to the Deacon. While further analysis may be necessary, it would seem then that Rutherford viewed church office as invested with authority, in contrast to the service or charge provided by the order of widows.
So far as the duties of Deacons go, Jus Divnium refers Calvin's "two classes" to belong to one office, states that Deacons are an ordinance of Christ (which would seem to imply they have authority from Christ to do their duty), that they distinct from all other church officers, that their duties are summed up in helping and showing mercy. They then refer to Rutherford's Due Right (linked to above) for further argumentation to those who scruple the distinct office of Deacon.
So the role of the deacon would not be linked to spiritual leadership/authority, correct?
Gforce9
Puritan Board Junior
This discussion, in my opinion, is exhibit A in what kind of confusion, disunity, conflict,...happens when a term is hijacked and reapplied. Women are not to be office bearers. Call them Sunday School Coordinators, Financial Consultants, Meal Facillitators or whatever else but deacon(ess). I understand why liberals hijack terms; they wish to sound orthodox. I do not understand why non-liberals hijack and redefine terms because it only causes trouble and we are not to be troublemakers. Simply use another term and this discussion disappears into the ether where it cant cause any trouble......
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