Ghosts and haunted houses

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This paper proves differently:

https://nirc.nanzan-you.ac.jp/nfile/839

"He rejected Korean shamanism, just as other Christian missionaries rejected magic and wizardry in different mission fields. In the process of iconoclastic encounters with Korean folk religions, however, Anglo-Saxon missionaries took over the mudang role of casting out devils and “evil spirits.”

...Even though Protestant missionaries attacked shamanism, burned down fetishes and talismans dedicated to household spirits, and inspired people to abandon “superstitious” beliefs and behaviors, many Korean Christians retained their traditional animistic world view. In turn, the biblical literalism and field experiences of Protestant missionaries led them to accept a Christian version of exorcisms, although their rationalism and the constitutions of the churches did not acknowledge miraculous healing in modern times. In this sense, their field experiences overrode their backgrounds in modern science and theology.

...Burning fetishes and destroying devil houses When a Korean decided to believe in the “Jesus doctrine,” she was instructed to burn all fetishes dedicated to household spirits. Sometimes she took them to the edge of the village and threw them as far as they could be thrown. In the eyes of missionaries, new converts needed to cut themselves from the past in a symbolic manner—by destroying the fetishes, which the Christians associated with evil spirits and old beliefs (Moore 1896; Collyer 1901; C. A. Clark 1903; Hounshell 1905; Carroll 1906; Owen 1908). When one particular mudang in 1899 gave up her sorcery and decided to become a Christian, she gave the “spiritual garment and little brass implements” to female Korean evangelists in P’yŏngyang (Fish 1899).

...James s. Gale (1863–1937) arrived in Korea in 1888 as a volunteer missionary of the YMCA of the University of Toronto. He joined the Korea Mission of the PCUSA (Presbyterian Church, USA) in 1891. He married the widowed Mrs. Heron in Seoul in 1892. The couple then moved to Wŏnsan, an open port on the East Sea. In 1895 two Korean families became Christians because they heard that the name of Jesus was sufficient to save every believer from the attacks of evil spirits. Gale said, “The idea of possession and demon influence has a great place here in life. The Tonghaks, who had raised such a commotion in the south last year, professed to have power to cast out devils, and that was one cause of their popularity. We rejoice that the name of Jesus is sufficient” (Gale 1895, 230).

...In 1897 Hulbert began to publicize cases of demon possession and reported cases of exorcism through the prayers of Korean Christians (Hulbert 1897 and 1901a).

...Demon possession and christian exorcism: nevius and demon possession in shandong

John L. Nevius, who worked in China from 1854 to 1892, had experienced cases of demon possession from the beginning of his work in Shandong. He was absorbed by the question of whether demon possession still existed in the 112 | Asian Ethnology 69/1 • 2010 later nineteenth century.

He had carefully investigated these cases and gathered the facts and testimony of missionaries and Chinese Christians on the incidents in which they expelled spirits and set the victims free.

The result was his posthumous book, Demon Possession and Allied Themes. Not only was the “Nevius Method” adopted by the Korean missions, but his theory of demon possession and Christian exorcism also influenced the missionaries in Korea. The people of Shandong Province fully believed in demon possession; the belief was a part of Chinese animism or spirit worship. Physical suffering and violent paroxysms attended the victims’ ordeal. When the narratives of demonic possession given in the New Testament were read, therefore, Chinese Christians recognized the correspondence at once. Nevius and other missionaries proceeded with great caution in this matter. As

...Nevius argued that cases of demon possession actually existed in China. He describes those supposedly cured by Chinese Christians, not by the old methods that exorcists had used such as burning charms, frightening with magic spells and incantations, or pricking the body with needles, but by singing hymns and praying to God. Some missionaries testified that they felt themselves “transported back to the days of the Apostles” and were “compelled to believe that the dominion of Satan is by no means broken yet” (Nevius 1896, 71). Nevius insisted that the phenomenon on demon possession could be explained not by contemporary evolutionary and psychological theories, but only by the Bible. In 1930 Charles A. Clark mentioned Nevius’s book on demon possession: Exorcism of evil spirits by Christian workers caused much discussion and divided opinion among the missionaries and the church workers. It is mentioned in the 1895 Report about Wŏnsan particularly."


It sounds like missionary activity in Korea was full of spiritual warfare.

Here is the book by Nevius: https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Posses..._0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1546095500&sr=1-3-fkmr1

Description: A study of demon possession, written by a veteran missionary to China who was initially skeptical of the phenomenon, until he began to study it himself. He begins with a series of cases in China which he personally investigated, followed by the results of a survey sent out to other missionaries in China, and then gives examples from India, Japan, etc. He finds strong correlations with the New Testament accounts, and with other accounts from the ancient world. This is considered by many the classic treatment of the subject. The author also interacts with the various alternative explanations of the phenomena.


Your correction is appreciated. However, I would point out that at least some of those sources seem to say that the Christians were influenced by pagan notions.

I have read James Scarth Gale and he seems to find the traditional beliefs in demons to be silly. The quotation above, I think, is not saying that the demon possession was real, but that the local religious beliefs were false. I could be wrong, but I have read enough of Gale, I think, to understand his view on this.
 
Your correction is appreciated. However, I would point out that at least some of those sources seem to say that the Christians were influenced by pagan notions.

I have read James Scarth Gale and he seems to find the traditional beliefs in demons to be silly. The quotation above, I think, is not saying that the demon possession was real, but that the local religious beliefs were false. I could be wrong, but I have read enough of Gale, I think, to understand his view on this.
Let's plan a discussion of Nevius' book on Demon Possession in a week or so, shall we? I am making my way through it now. Nevius is revered as wise by all and, therefore, it would be good to discuss his findings here.
 
Let's plan a discussion of Nevius' book on Demon Possession in a week or so, shall we? I am making my way through it now. Nevius is revered as wise by all and, therefore, it would be good to discuss his findings here.

I'll be sure to add it to my reading list. Nevius seems like a chap I should read.
 
One
Let's plan a discussion of Nevius' book on Demon Possession in a week or so, shall we? I am making my way through it now. Nevius is revered as wise by all and, therefore, it would be good to discuss his findings here.
One rhetorical argument I often find in the missionary literature is to mock and belittle the demons.

This is not to deny they exist, but to gloat over our victory over them.

Sometimes later readers then read this as a dismissal of demons entirely, instead of merely a dismissal of the power of demons and shamans and curses over us.

I once mocked a shaman in a town ceremony where he said he was safe to eat glass and drive swords into his breast once possessed....as long as there was not a stronger spirit nearby. So I told him that I would pray the Holy Spirit would not entirely kill him that day, but only hurt him a little.

20 minute later he was off to the hospital after a "mishap."

So...what happened? I don't know.
 
If I recall correctly, you said we don't see how the demon leaves (presuming, therefore, it doesn't exist). In other words, we don't see the cause. If you carry the argument further, the cause doesn't exist, either, since you can't see it.
You don't recall correctly. You may have misunderstood what I was saying. You should not be so quick to misunderstand.
 
I'll retract one thing. It's not a word-for-word copy of Hume. 18th century writers wrote in a stumbling prose. But if anyone wants to work through the principle and the sources
https://www.iep.utm.edu/hume-cau/

I seem to remember reading something like what you're talking about somewhere in Hume's Enquiry. But I wish to be clear that I think the arguments are not the same. Hume denies all miraculous or supernatural occurrences, while our sister here does not. I have thought it somewhat disingenuous to suggest she might have.
 
A thought on what angels or demons look like.

vi) In Scripture, angels manifest themselves in roughly three different forms:
a) Humanoid angels. These are angels who can pass for humans. They look human. They have solidity. The only thing that gives them away is their supernatural power (e.g. Gen 19:11).
Humanoid angels don't have wings.
b) Luminous angels. Sometimes, angels have a humanoid appearance with a nimbic aura. They glow. But they don't have wings.

c) Cherubim and seraphim. These have wings. Indeed, they have two or three pair of wings.
Given the association between wings and fire or lightning, are these wings that look like flames or flames that look like wings? In any case, it's probably no feathers, but something like flickering firelight or electricity.
Assuming that Isa 6 and Ezk 1 & 10 are representative, the basic distinction seems to be that seraphim are the angelic retinue for the stationary heavenly sanctuary or throne room whereas cherubim are the angelic retinue for the God's mobile throne (cf. Ps 18:10).
It's not clear if these are different kinds of angels. Since angels are essentially incorporeal, this is merely how they manifest themselves, not how they naturally subsist.
The cherubim are tetramorphs. They don't have the appearance of a winged-man. Rather, they are hybrids.
 
Nope. You'll have to back up a little more. The sentence you're referring to didn't have enough words to have a "form." You just decided to link it to Hume's thought. I explicitly (in a following comment) linked it to John 3:8.https://puritanboard.com/threads/ghosts-and-haunted-houses.96948/page-4#post-1185280

Post #112

But you didn’t see what happened; you can’t know with any certainty what happened.

That's logically fallacious. There are a lot of things I don't see but I can speak with logical certainty about. And the Bible tells us a lot about Rephaim, Shedim, Nephilim, Lilith and the Tree Snake she holds, archons, thronoi, unclean spirits, Watchers, etc. I haven't seen any of them (I've felt an unclean presence, though).
 
Post #112



That's logically fallacious. There are a lot of things I don't see but I can speak with logical certainty about. And the Bible tells us a lot about Rephaim, Shedim, Nephilim, Lilith and the Tree Snake she holds, archons, thronoi, unclean spirits, Watchers, etc. I haven't seen any of them (I've felt an unclean presence, though).
I don't know what's so hard about understanding this; likely it's my ineptness at speaking clearly. I'll try one more time.

What I meant by my statement "you didn’t see what happened; you can’t know with any certainty what happened.You and I cannot see into the spiritual realm":

If there is a situation going on where a person seems to be demonized, the weapons of one's warfare would be prayer and God's word, with the hope that God will grant freedom and repentance. It was only given to Christ and his apostles to authoritatively identify a demon, speak to a demon, and cast out a demon through commands to the demon. This is because "we can't see what is happening; we can't know with any certainty what is happening; you and I cannot see into the spiritual realm" (to change the quote a little). By "know with any certainty" I meant know infallibly. I.e., it has not been given to us to know infallibly what is going on in the spiritual realm, or to deal with it as Christ and his apostles did. One can surmise, and be right, but the response to any such situation is God's word and prayer for such a person. These are assertions that you will not agree with since we believe differently.

I think that Christ won such a victory over the evil spiritual realm that we may rejoice that we have been given such powerful weapons of warfare against the enemy. Prayer and God's word! Every lowly believer can engage in effective spiritual warfare against the enemy of our souls (and the enemy of our children's souls, and our neighbors' souls, and so on). The church has been given this authority over Satan, and the weapons are at hand to engage in the battle. So refreshing, so encouraging, thank God we don't have to read volumes of esoteric materials and delve into dark matters. Thank God for the victory he wrought through his Son. "Hear him."
 
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I’m curious about how you view the magicians of Egypt who mimicked Moses or the witch if Endor who summoned Samuel—namely, whether they weilded actual power to perform their wickedness. As with the magicians of Egypt, it did nit appear to be mere mimickery, as they conjured actual serpents (Exodus 7:11-12). Or, when John refers to sorcerers in Revelation 21:8 and 22:15, is he just speaking of those who merely attempt or aspire to such, or is he referring to people who perform actual sorcery?

Tricks pure and simple tricks. Only God can do the things either immediately or through mediums like Moses and The Apostles. Our faith is based on The Resurrection and if satan could raise the dead, or do miracles, our basis for faith would be vain. The theology of Nicodemus was perfect on the point that unless one is from God no one could do what Jesus did.
 
What I meant by my statement "you didn’t see what happened; you can’t know with any certainty what happened.You and I cannot see into the spiritual realm"

Of course people can't physically "see" into the spiritual realm. It's by definition invisible. If that's what you are getting at, I agree.
By "know with any certainty" I meant know infallibly. I.e., it has not been given to us to know infallibly what is going on in the spiritual realm

Infallibism is a pretty steep criterion for knowledge.
 
I dismiss this based on what I believe is superstition. Have you not read the warning on the box?......"This is a game that is fictional and any semblance of reality is purely coincidental." :)
On what scripture do you take the position then that there can be no demonic/supernatural activities happening in this present time?
My contention would be it will be on the rise the closer to the return of Jesus, and also those who get hooked on various drugs and alcohol who are unsaved can be unwittingly opening the doorway into the world of the occult.
 
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Tricks pure and simple tricks. Only God can do the things either immediately or through mediums like Moses and The Apostles. Our faith is based on The Resurrection and if satan could raise the dead, or do miracles, our basis for faith would be vain. The theology of Nicodemus was perfect on the point that unless one is from God no one could do what Jesus did.
Satan and His demons still operate though in the realm of the supernatural, as they still are beings that exist outside of what we know as physical reality!
 
Tricks pure and simple tricks. Only God can do the things either immediately or through mediums like Moses and The Apostles.

Consider the following though:

1) The supernatural fire from heaven that consumed Job's livestock after God gave Satan permission to go after him (Job 1:16)

2) The second beast of Revelation that performs great signs and makes fire come down from heaven (Rev. 13:13-14)

3) The warning against false prophets who do signs and wonders (Deut. 13:1-3, Mt. 24:24)

All of these are done in order to deceive but the language seems to suggest the signs and wonders are real.
 
Consider the following though:

1) The supernatural fire from heaven that consumed Job's livestock after God gave Satan permission to go after him (Job 1:16)

2) The second beast of Revelation that performs great signs and makes fire come down from heaven (Rev. 13:13-14)

3) The warning against false prophets who do signs and wonders (Deut. 13:1-3, Mt. 24:24)

All of these are done in order to deceive but the language seems to suggest the signs and wonders are real.
Jesus stated to us that there will be false messiah who would even be able to do signs and wonders if possible to call away even the elect, so must be some type of real supernatural workings going on!
Matthew 24:24
 
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