A Nation of Witches and Sorcerers

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Perg, talking about the general “US population” is one thing—those who do whatever their secular, ungodly orientations allow their consciences—and, on the other hand, Christians committed to following Christ according to the Scriptures and the gracious, wise oversight of their pastors / elders.

I understand that you have in your younger days lived according to wisdom in not partaking of recreational drugs of various sorts. That has been a blessing to you, even though you do not realize—from experience—how much of a blessing.

When you question “[how] the terms ‘drunk’ and ‘high’ differ?” it evidences the innocence of a godly soul as regards a demonic activity. Even those who partake of sorcerous agents with no occult or spiritual intent, but only the enhancement of fleshly enjoyments (friendship, sex, food, entertainment, art, nature, etc) through intensification of pleasure and perception, avail themselves of demonic agency to heighten sensation. Sorcery is not only about enhanced psychic / occult activity, it is also about enhancing general fleshly activity.

Alcohol is a CNS (central nervous system) depressant, while the psychedelics—including marijuana—are CNS energizers, even though they may have different affect in people according to their psychological makeups. Yes, alcohol may make one merry or glad, and enhance ones’ state of mind if done in moderation, which the Scripture even approves of; but sorcerous agents are classed by Paul in Gal 5:20, 21 as against the Spirit (Gal 5:17), and are indicative of those who “shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”

It was a gift of God in your providence that you steered clear of such stuff; others of us did not receive that gift, but rather the saving mercies of Christ while in the “strong delusion” and depths of sin these agents plunged us into, and we testify of His power and love, while testifying of the awful depths and delusions He delivered us out of.

I have already heard from pastors dealing with these things in their churches, who are glad to have the resources to comprehend this stealth assault of Satan upon their flocks.

When it comes to my time to face my Creator and Saviour, I do not want to hear Him say, “Steve, I gave you understanding to testify to the church in this matter, but now on your watch you have fainted in the face of just a little opposition.” May that never be said. Whoever teaches against this witness, based upon Scripture and the responsible and sound exposition of same, will also have to face Him, who is jealous for the purity of His bride—which sin spoken of here, among others, has brought down civilizations (Isa 47:7-15 [especially note vv 9 and 12]; Rev 18:23).
 
Perg, talking about the general “US population” is one thing—those who do whatever their secular, ungodly orientations allow their consciences—and, on the other hand, Christians committed to following Christ according to the Scriptures and the gracious, wise oversight of their pastors / elders.

I understand that you have in your younger days lived according to wisdom in not partaking of recreational drugs of various sorts. That has been a blessing to you, even though you do not realize—from experience—how much of a blessing.

When you question “[how] the terms ‘drunk’ and ‘high’ differ?” it evidences the innocence of a godly soul as regards a demonic activity. Even those who partake of sorcerous agents with no occult or spiritual intent, but only the enhancement of fleshly enjoyments (friendship, sex, food, entertainment, art, nature, etc) through intensification of pleasure and perception, avail themselves of demonic agency to heighten sensation. Sorcery is not only about enhanced psychic / occult activity, it is also about enhancing general fleshly activity.

Alcohol is a CNS (central nervous system) depressant, while the psychedelics—including marijuana—are CNS energizers, even though they may have different affect in people according to their psychological makeups. Yes, alcohol may make one merry or glad, and enhance ones’ state of mind if done in moderation, which the Scripture even approves of; but sorcerous agents are classed by Paul in Gal 5:20, 21 as against the Spirit (Gal 5:17), and are indicative of those who “shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”

It was a gift of God in your providence that you steered clear of such stuff; others of us did not receive that gift, but rather the saving mercies of Christ while in the “strong delusion” and depths of sin these agents plunged us into, and we testify of His power and love, while testifying of the awful depths and delusions He delivered us out of.

I have already heard from pastors dealing with these things in their churches, who are glad to have the resources to comprehend this stealth assault of Satan upon their flocks.

When it comes to my time to face my Creator and Saviour, I do not want to hear Him say, “Steve, I gave you understanding to testify to the church in this matter, but now on your watch you have fainted in the face of just a little opposition.” May that never be said. Whoever teaches against this witness, based upon Scripture and the responsible and sound exposition of same, will also have to face Him, who is jealous for the purity of His bride—which sin spoken of here, among others, has brought down civilizations (Isa 47:7-15 [especially note vv 9 and 12]; Rev 18:23).

Thank you for your response.

I was only ever drunk once in my life at age 16. And at that time, I tried to hit on a slutty girl and then stomped on some guy in the mosh pit while listening to a heavy metal band for bumping into me (stomped on his face several times until I think he passed out), and then wanted to fight another guy for looking at me. Getting drunk awakened something very dark and violent in me. It seemed demonic.

So I spent 20 years as a teetotaller, until I got worms so bad I went on a diet of greek yoghurt and saurkraut and sipping red wine to rebuild my gut bacteria. Some years later, once when out of pain meds, I took a shot or two of whiskey to deaden the severe pain because we ran out of all other meds (like in the Old West).

But my experience when I was 16 seemed pretty demonic, and it was with alcohol only. I have not drank beer since. And I've never tried anything harder than alcohol because of that experience. I still believe red wine has health benefits in moderation, especially for worm-addled intestines.

But I have taken opiods for several weeks due to severe pain. And I went into a depression at the same time and my stomach cramped when I got off of them, so I flushed them all down the toilet. They were a great gift when I first got the opiods because my pain was so severe I could barely walk or even stand... but afer just 10 days I could tell that I was building a tolerance. I had a dream of hanging myself to relieve the pain. Not sure how much of a conscious or unconscious thought this was since I was dreaming. Several times I took a larger dose to put me to sleep when suffering insomnia.

I am having a hard time seeing how one drug is worse than others. A high/drunk seems to be a high/drunk.

It seems to me that a drug is a drug. Some are harder than others.... (eg. nicotine harder than caffeine). But for some drugs to be more "demonic" than other drugs...well, I am still having trouble believing it.

I know of heavy drinkers that beat their wives (I guess when they are drunk with hard drink like vodka?)....but I have never met a man who beat his family while high on marijuana.

Sorry, I am, indeed, naive, when it come to drugs and drinking. My experience is very shallow (thank God). I believe God allowed me a slip-up at 16 to save me these things...a blessing in disguise.

BUT...I do agree with one of your main premises...that the occult and sorcerers and shamans often sought out intoxicating things. Sorcery is associated with drug-taking. And Satanists today often take drugs. And sorcery and drug-taking IS related in the Biblical vocabulary. So I just don't know what to do with that.

Since you seem ok with CBD oil for pain relief, than I guess practically we are agreed.

While my high school buddies that smoked dope were nice guys and did not fall into Devil worshipping, they mostly did not succeed in life, either, due to lack of ambition (and probably deadened brain cells since they smoked it at 16 instead of 25 or 20). We all did like to fight, whether drunk or not...but my friends actually got more peaceful when on dope and were more "chill" and pot seemed to be associated with the peace movement of the 60's more than satanism.

For old people, it seems beneficial to have something pleasant to relieve the aches and pains of old age, though, and it would be good to have a form of pain relief that is healthier than an opiod.
 
Perg, and thanks for your response! At almost age 77 – and my slowly deteriorating physical condition (difficult for me as I have always been athletic and physically active . . . sports, martial arts, scuba diving, sky diving, wilderness survival, and recently mountain climbing) – a benign form of pain relief would be welcome, though even ibuprofen and Tylenol have their dangers; opioids and narcotics scare me due to addiction I had while young, so I only take those when really necessary, and quit quickly when no longer so.

So grass would be welcome were it not so deadly. I am not naïve when it comes to sin and its spiritual dangers, often having learned in the school of hard knocks, though kept intact by my great Shepherd.

I don’t think drugs are in themselves “demonic”. This is something I wrote here on the topic around 4 years ago:

“…the pharmakeia drugs do not contain demonic power. This would be the negative mirror-image of Rome’s claiming the wafer actually contains God’s grace, that having been infused in it by Him, and that it confers grace apart from any motion – faith or devotion – on the part of the recipient. Such, along with Francis Turretin, I would deny. Both views err. In Turretin’s words, “nothing corporeal can by its own power effect anything spiritual or act upon the soul” (Elenctic Theology, Vol 3, p 365), that is, evil or good do not inhere in physical objects; even alcohol or tobacco are not evil in themselves – it is their misuse that results in damaging effects on the human body and soul. Or Turretin again, “the sacraments do not work grace physically and ex opere operato [produce of themselves] as if they possessed a force implanted and inherent in them of conferring and effecting grace” (Ibid., p 363). The same inability to contain and/or confer evil applies to the drugs.

“So on this point please note that I do not assert that demonic power is in the substance of marijuana or LSD, etc. It is simply a plant – or, with respect to LSD, a synthetic mix of chemicals – derived from the created order of things. Their effect is upon the physical body, particularly the brain and neurological system.

“Whence then, the sorcerous power of the drugs? Perhaps this may illustrate my view: I was wondering a while ago, reflecting on this topic, what if (indulging briefly in the “if – then fallacy”) there were no demonic realm, no demons, just God and His creation in a holy state; and if someone inhaled the smoke of marijuana, or ate psychedelic mushrooms or peyote buttons, and the affect from ingesting these substances was to make them very aware of their inner being and of the outer physical and spiritual worlds? If there were no demons, this would not – in that context – be sorcery, nor would those substances be categorized and prohibited as pharmakeia agents. There would be no demonic influence at all. But this conjecture presupposes a blessed state greater than original innocence (for there was a devil lurking about the garden), rather the pristine holiness of the eternal state. Perhaps it can be seen where I am going with such thoughts.”​

But the psychedelics are extraordinary as regards the properties they have in their effects upon human consciousness. If you had told me about these things near 60 years ago when I was around 20 I’d not have believed you, as my imagination could not have conceived of such things. It was when I used them that I came to believe. Sorcery, demonic realm, God, Satan, spirit world – these were things I came to understand after the Spirit of Christ illumined various realities to me by the Scriptures, after my conversion.

Even though I have stepped down from the formal oversight of the church, I still have the legitimate desire – and one could say commission – to protect the Lord’s house (of living stones), and the name of the Lord, both in the eyes of the lost, and to other assemblies of God’s people.

Re your earlier experience with liquor (or beer), it was not the liquor that was demonic, but your own depravity become uninhibited that was “demonic” or evil.

Thank you for being so transparent concerning your past, and from which our Saviour eventually delivered you, making you a beloved child of His.
 
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Here's some examples of how great marajuana has helped patients with their chronic diseases. I'm really hoping our state makes is legal soon. This will help so many of our patients. These videos are impressive




 
I still have the legitimate desire – and one could say commission – to protect the Lord’s house (of living stones), and the name of the Lord, both in the eyes of the lost, and to other assemblies of God’s people.
Hello Steve,

You might find this book from the truthxchange helpful "On Global Wizardry: Techniques of Pagan Spirituality and a Christian Response". My copy arrived today so have not read it yet, but it seems to address the very issues you want to warn the curch about.
 
Hello Sarah (OPC’n),

Thanks for the video clips. In the first one with the girl afflicted with chronic seizure activity, although in the beginning it showed what looked like a (liter?) bag of raw, dried marijuana, at around 5:52 I noticed the bottle labeled “CBD” on the table (CBD is the extract from marijuana without any of the THC that gets one high). So I’m not clear on what they settled down with to use on their daughter.

I’ve seen the second clip of the man with Parkinson’s before, and again it is not clear what was given him, CBD oil or cannabis-with-THC oil. They both may be termed “marijuana oil”.

The third clip showed the agitated autistic child treated with vaporized cannabis markedly calmed down after breathing some in (I worked with autistic and other special needs children, and adults, for many years). Again, it is not clear what they used.

In your post #17 you assert that legal drugs may have the same affect in some people as the psychedelics, though that is a vague and unsupported statement, and without any consideration of those peoples drug-use history. You also post a quote (without citing its source) saying that marijuana is not chemically related to other psychedelics, which is true, though that is also the case in the large variety of psychedelics we know of. That quote also says that marijuana is a psychedelic, though of a different class than the others, which I would acknowledge.

Re the last paragraph of your post #17 you talk a lot about “exposure to the demonic realm” and what one can and cannot say, as though you have extensive knowledge in this area. I do have great respect for the rigorous training re medicines, their administration, and other medical knowledge you have as a nurse (I gather RN), although that doesn’t qualify you for discernment and understanding in the spiritual realm.

The videos you posted do show the radical health benefits of medical marijuana, though, as I said, it is blatantly clear that it may be referring to the non-psychoactive CBD instead of the THC-laden cannabis. And even if it is the THC cannabis, we do not see into the ongoing lives of these patients. Say it was the THC, which effected great relief in the two children and the adult, what else has it done—or may yet do in months or years to come—in their souls and spirits? We don’t know.

I also said earlier that were I ever in acute pain, or having some ailment involving loss of muscle control, etc., I would not—with the Lord’s grace and help—use a substance that exposed me to the realm of the demonic (which is a given property of psychedelics). Some well-meaning folks tend to blur the line between sorcery and medicine, and I have tried to make clear the distinctions and parameters, as one who has been given spiritual oversight of those elect souls precious to God.

What is known is that pure cannabis, which is some 20 times more potent now than it used to be in the ‘60s and ‘70s, and can be processed into “wax” (aka “honey oil” “glass”, etc) to be vaporized, and is even far more potent than the unprocessed stuff, all of which is unleashing a scourge upon the psyches of collective humankind, “but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads” (Rev 9:4). And I quote that passage as the 5th trumpet of God’s judgment upon the earth bears upon this topic of sorcerous drugs and their horrific dark power against the generations of men, women, and children now living. This is not a topic of discussion to be lightly entered into! It involves the severe judgments of the Almighty upon the idolatrous and those who have set themselves against Him and His Christ in the last days (cf Psalm 2), especially the end thereof.

Stephen, thanks for the heads-up on prof and pastor (PCA) Peter Jones’ new book! He is well-known for his works discerning the spiritual assaults being made upon the world and especially God’s people, such as his earlier Spirit Wars, and The Gnostic Empire Strikes Back. In this new book of essays which he is editor of and contributor to, I see he has at least one chapter on shamanism. Please let me know what you think about it, though they have one chapter on it in the Kindle preview on Amazon (I’ll PM you my email in case you want to do so privately).
 
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Stephen, I read the first chapter of Dr. Jones' book (on Amazon's "Look Inside") which was, "Modern Shamanism: Spirit Contact & Spiritual Progress". So I found his email and sent him a copy of my article, which he may likely appreciate.
 
Hello Sarah (OPC’n),

Thanks for the video clips. In the first one with the girl afflicted with chronic seizure activity, although in the beginning it showed what looked like a (liter?) bag of raw, dried marijuana, at around 5:52 I noticed the bottle labeled “CBD” on the table (CBD is the extract from marijuana without any of the THC that gets one high). So I’m not clear on what they settled down with to use on their daughter.

I’ve seen the second clip of the man with Parkinson’s before, and again it is not clear what was given him, CBD oil or cannabis-with-THC oil. They both may be termed “marijuana oil”.

The third clip showed the agitated autistic child treated with vaporized cannabis markedly calmed down after breathing some in (I worked with autistic and other special needs children, and adults, for many years). Again, it is not clear what they used.

In your post #17 you assert that legal drugs may have the same affect in some people as the psychedelics, though that is a vague and unsupported statement, and without any consideration of those peoples drug-use history. You also post a quote (without citing its source) saying that marijuana is not chemically related to other psychedelics, which is true, though that is also the case in the large variety of psychedelics we know of. That quote also says that marijuana is a psychedelic, though of a different class than the others, which I would acknowledge.

Re the last paragraph of your post #17 you talk a lot about “exposure to the demonic realm” and what one can and cannot say, as though you have extensive knowledge in this area. I do have great respect for the rigorous training re medicines, their administration, and other medical knowledge you have as a nurse (I gather RN), although that doesn’t qualify you for discernment and understanding in the spiritual realm.

The videos you posted do show the radical health benefits of medical marijuana, though, as I said, it is blatantly clear that it may be referring to the non-psychoactive CBD instead of the THC-laden cannabis. And even if it is the THC cannabis, we do not see into the ongoing lives of these patients. Say it was the THC, which effected great relief in the two children and the adult, what else has it done—or may yet do in months or years to come—in their souls and spirits? We don’t know.

I also said earlier that were I ever in acute pain, or having some ailment involving loss of muscle control, etc., I would not—with the Lord’s grace and help—use a substance that exposed me to the realm of the demonic (which is a given property of psychedelics). Some well-meaning folks tend to blur the line between sorcery and medicine, and I have tried to make clear the distinctions and parameters, as one who has been given spiritual oversight of those elect souls precious to God.

What is known is that pure cannabis, which is some 20 times more potent now than it used to be in the ‘60s and ‘70s, and can be processed into “wax” (aka “honey oil” “glass”, etc) to be vaporized, and is even far more potent than the unprocessed stuff, all of which is unleashing a scourge upon the psyches of collective humankind, “but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads” (Rev 9:4). And I quote that passage as the 5th trumpet of God’s judgment upon the earth bears upon this topic of sorcerous drugs and their horrific dark power against the generations of men, women, and children now living. This is not a topic of discussion to be lightly entered into! It involves the severe judgments of the Almighty upon the idolatrous and those who have set themselves against Him and His Christ in the last days (cf Psalm 2), especially the end thereof.

I don't believe you actually listened to the entirety of each video.....you would have heard and read that it's not CBD. CBD is legal everywhere and marijuana isn't legal everywhere. These videos are pushing for the legalization of medical marijuana. Also, recreational marijuana has much more THC than medical marijuana, and medical marijuana has more CBD than recreational marijuana.

I'm sorry if you're unwilling to accept my experience as an RN with 18 years of experience in neurology, neurosurg, and trauma level II with patients having hallucinations on legal drugs that we give. That's your privilege, but it doesn't negate the fact that I do have experience with this, and MDs on our unit have identified these patients as having adverse side effects resulting in confusion, hallucinations and/or agitation. Also, here is the link you asked for. The quote that I put up here is at the bottom of the article. http://psychedelics.com/thc/is-marijuana-a-psychedelic/

I ended up reading the article. HUGE gaps in that article. This article is a guide to show what happens when you practice witchcraft/sorcery and use drugs to enhance that practice. This is all the article proves.

I think we would all agree that witches and sorcerers probably use psychedelic drugs to enhance their sinful practice of magic and sorcery. And that's all this article proves. He gives lots and lots of proof from Biblical scholars and from
pagan spiritualists and shamans what these drugs do for those who practice witchcraft, sorcery, or for those who just want to reach out and touch a demon. But that's my point. It's what these drugs do to these specific people. He then plays leapfrog and carries all that info over to the Christian and in essence claims "Well, if does it for these witches and sorcerers then that's proof that it does it to everyone and puts Christians in contact with the demonic realm whether they realize it or not." forgetting one small point......we don't practice witchcraft or sorcery. That not how you use information. For one, Christians don't get high even if they do use medical marijuana.

What this article doesn't prove is that marijuana is a psychedelic drug (it has psychedelic properties like hallucinations for some people some of the time) and it certainly doesn't prove that it is marijuana that causes people come in contact with the demonic realm. He is misusing Scripture to support his stance against all usage and types of Marijuana. Scripture is damning witchcraft and sorcery. Scripture damns the use of ANY drug used in witchcraft and sorcery. Alcohol was used in these religious rituals and Scripture condemns the use of alcohol in this manner. It's sinful to get drunk....it's sinful to get high. You lose control of your mind and give way to the sin WITHIN not the demonic realms of witchcraft and sorcery without.
 
Sarah, I did watch every second of all three videos. I've addressed all the points you've made. I'm thankful that you're not qualified to be a pastor overseeing the flock of God.
 
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Sarah, I did watch every second of all three videos. I've addressed all the points you've made. I'm thankful that you're not qualified to be a pastor overseeing the flock of God.

I'm more thankful for that than you are :D. I'm also thankful that we have pastors who do their work and we have MDs and RNs who do their work. A pastor trying to add medical opinion to the field of medicine is like an MD/RN trying to preach from the pulpit. Each profession knows enough of the other profession to help contribute to their own welfare, but they are dangerous to the community when they try to take on the role of the other profession. The pastor might know some things about the medical field, but he doesn't have enough knowledge to make intellectual decisions on behalf of the medical community for their congregation. MDs/RNs might know a lot about theology, but they don't have enough knowledge to lead a congregation. There might be a fine line at times (like this example), but each person should remember their qualifications and also rely on substantiated truth. It doesn't do anyone any good to listen to quacks or bad theology.
 
I'm more thankful for that than you are :D. I'm also thankful that we have pastors who do their work and we have MDs and RNs who do their work. A pastor trying to add medical opinion to the field of medicine is like an MD/RN trying to preach from the pulpit. Each profession knows enough of the other profession to help contribute to their own welfare, but they are dangerous to the community when they try to take on the role of the other profession. The pastor might know some things about the medical field, but he doesn't have enough knowledge to make intellectual decisions on behalf of the medical community for their congregation. MDs/RNs might know a lot about theology, but they don't have enough knowledge to lead a congregation. There might be a fine line at times (like this example), but each person should remember their qualifications and also rely on substantiated truth. It doesn't do anyone any good to listen to quacks or bad theology.
That's a good opinion, Sarah. I just hope you're not calling our brother a quack with bad theology, which I really doubt you would.
 
That's a good opinion, Sarah. I just hope you're not calling our brother a quack with bad theology, which I really doubt you would.

A quack is normally someone who is practicing bad medicine. I don't believe he practices any type of medicine. I do believe the article is bad theology. If you really believed that I wouldn't call him a quack with bad theology why state you hoped I wasn't calling him a quack with bad theology? Nothing in my statement led to this conclusion.
 
I wouldn't touch THC with a ten-foot-pole, recreationally or medically.
 
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Hello Sarah,

In speaking of sorcerous drugs there is an unavoidable overlap between the fields of science / medicine / psychopharmacology and the spiritual and theological work of a pastor. A doctor or nurse ought not go beyond the observable, empirical parameters of science and—at least with authority—into that realm of realities which are not measurable or observable. Yes, science may observe the behavioral, but not the spiritual.

Pastors (with the exception of men like Martyn Lloyd-Jones) are limited to what knowledge they have of medical science, and pharmacology—certainly not in the depth medical practitioners may (rather, must) have.

What I know of the psychedelics comes from about 50 years of experience, study, and research. And what I know, in the light of God’s revelation via His word, is in the realm not accessible to scientific investigation or discernment, for “the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned” (1 Cor 2:14).

Now I recognize that you, being a Christian, do have discernment as God’s word gives it to you, albeit limited to your experience and knowledge.

What I speak of is not medical opinion, but spiritual discernment. A pastor may have some knowledge of psychedelic substances in their physical aspect—I would not term this medical knowledge, though it is scientific—as well as a spiritual discernment that is not available to science.

It is the calling of a pastor to be familiar with the text of the Scripture, and while there are things he may not know experientially—such as various sins—he does know enough by the insight given him from the Holy Spirit and the word of God, as well the testimony and counsel of his peers, both to warn and to aid sinners regarding sins.

The issue of sorcery has become, of necessity, a crucial matter, being a capital sin (that is, requiring church discipline and excommunication if unrepented of, and barring entrance into the kingdom of God; Gal 5:20,21; Rev 21:8; 22:15). It cannot be that the overseers of God’s people be ignorant of such sin. Though I do note that no one here has come up with an explanation of what that sin is apart from sorcery.

I do not transgress ignorantly into the realm of medical practice as regards my exposition of what Biblical sorcery is. Where you might allege I do would be in the realm of the medical administration of THC-laden marijuana for various ailments. My response has been—is, and will continue to be—that whatever use of cannabis results in a person becoming “high”, this is, per se, sorcery, however great the apparent physical benefits. I affirm this on the basis of God’s word and a strictly spiritual discernment which is beyond the proper domain of science, and which the Spirit of God says is “foolishness to him” (1 Cor 2:14), the scientist. Medical knowledge, however true in its sphere, does not trump genuine spiritual knowledge when the two are at odds.

Now it is apparent that even believers, with some measure of spiritual knowledge and discernment, disagree with the Biblical position I hold forth. It is because of this I make it clearly known that the responsibility rests not upon the laity, but on the pastors, elders, leaders of the churches to teach and enforce the word of God in this matter.

When James says in 3:1,

KJV My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

NKJV My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.

ESV Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.

NIV ’84 Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.​

this does not pertain simply to correct doctrines, but to enforcing the removal of ungodliness and evil from the precincts of His house, as well as—positively—to encouraging godliness and interactions in the love of Christ. It also, at a certain point will involve more than, on the judgment, fire trying a man’s work, whether it be gold, silver, gems, or wood, hay, stubble, for if we allow damnable sin entrance into the flock, condoning it, we bring upon us the guilt similar to the OT watchmen who did not warn the flock, so that their blood be upon our heads—unfaithful watchmen. “Wherefore let him that thinks he stands take heed lest he fall” (1 Cor 10:12)

For pastors and teachers, we should “tremble at His word” (Isa 66:2), as a time of great sifting will be at hand soon enough. The days to come will try us, even those in our congregations. We should not fear the opposition of men, but God.

I’m taking off from the thread for the Lord’s Day.
 
Steve,

Since you are continuing in this conversation, I'm wondering if you could interact with Chris's post (#18). in my opinion, he got to the heart of the issue and you ignored it...
 
Hello Sarah,

In speaking of sorcerous drugs there is an unavoidable overlap between the fields of science / medicine / psychopharmacology and the spiritual and theological work of a pastor. A doctor or nurse ought not go beyond the observable, empirical parameters of science and—at least with authority—into that realm of realities which are not measurable or observable. Yes, science may observe the behavioral, but not the spiritual.

Pastors (with the exception of men like Martyn Lloyd-Jones) are limited to what knowledge they have of medical science, and pharmacology—certainly not in the depth medical practitioners may (rather, must) have.

What I know of the psychedelics comes from about 50 years of experience, study, and research. And what I know, in the light of God’s revelation via His word, is in the realm not accessible to scientific investigation or discernment, for “the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned” (1 Cor 2:14).

Now I recognize that you, being a Christian, do have discernment as God’s word gives it to you, albeit limited to your experience and knowledge.

What I speak of is not medical opinion, but spiritual discernment. A pastor may have some knowledge of psychedelic substances in their physical aspect—I would not term this medical knowledge, though it is scientific—as well as a spiritual discernment that is not available to science.

It is the calling of a pastor to be familiar with the text of the Scripture, and while there are things he may not know experientially—such as various sins—he does know enough by the insight given him from the Holy Spirit and the word of God, as well the testimony and counsel of his peers, both to warn and to aid sinners regarding sins.

The issue of sorcery has become, of necessity, a crucial matter, being a capital sin (that is, requiring church discipline and excommunication if unrepented of, and barring entrance into the kingdom of God; Gal 5:20,21; Rev 21:8; 22:15). It cannot be that the overseers of God’s people be ignorant of such sin. Though I do note that no one here has come up with an explanation of what that sin is apart from sorcery.

I do not transgress ignorantly into the realm of medical practice as regards my exposition of what Biblical sorcery is. Where you might allege I do would be in the realm of the medical administration of THC-laden marijuana for various ailments. My response has been—is, and will continue to be—that whatever use of cannabis results in a person becoming “high”, this is, per se, sorcery, however great the apparent physical benefits. I affirm this on the basis of God’s word and a strictly spiritual discernment which is beyond the proper domain of science, and which the Spirit of God says is “foolishness to him” (1 Cor 2:14), the scientist. Medical knowledge, however true in its sphere, does not trump genuine spiritual knowledge when the two are at odds.

Now it is apparent that even believers, with some measure of spiritual knowledge and discernment, disagree with the Biblical position I hold forth. It is because of this I make it clearly known that the responsibility rests not upon the laity, but on the pastors, elders, leaders of the churches to teach and enforce the word of God in this matter.

When James says in 3:1,

KJV My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

NKJV My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.

ESV Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.

NIV ’84 Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.​

this does not pertain simply to correct doctrines, but to enforcing the removal of ungodliness and evil from the precincts of His house, as well as—positively—to encouraging godliness and interactions in the love of Christ. It also, at a certain point will involve more than, on the judgment, fire trying a man’s work, whether it be gold, silver, gems, or wood, hay, stubble, for if we allow damnable sin entrance into the flock, condoning it, we bring upon us the guilt similar to the OT watchmen who did not warn the flock, so that their blood be upon our heads—unfaithful watchmen. “Wherefore let him that thinks he stands take heed lest he fall” (1 Cor 10:12)

For pastors and teachers, we should “tremble at His word” (Isa 66:2), as a time of great sifting will be at hand soon enough. The days to come will try us, even those in our congregations. We should not fear the opposition of men, but God.

I’m taking off from the thread for the Lord’s Day.

I completely agree with everything you said about a pastor's responsibilities. The problem begins, however, when a pastor forbids the use of medical marijuana based on faulty truth claims he feels are Biblical. There are denominations whose pastors condemn alcohol and secular music. They truly believe they have Scripture to back up their positions. However, we know they don't. So now they are placing extra-biblical rules on people that God has not placed on his people. In my opinion, that is a sin. I would condemn the actions of a pastor who disallowed members of his congregation to seek appropriate medical help based on faulty information. I'm not a theologian, and even I can find the inaccuracies in the article you linked. In any case, we will just have to agree to disagree. Have a blessed Sabbath.
 

Recently I was reading Psalm 133 where it mentioned, "like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard..." I looked into the
recipe.

Holy Anointing Oil

Identification of kaneh bosem


Cannabis, and others

Other possible identifications have also been made. Sula Benet in Early Diffusion and Folk Uses of Hemp (1967), identified it as cannabis.[67] Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan notes that "On the basis of cognate pronunciation and Septuagint readings, some identify Keneh bosem with the English and Greek cannabis, the hemp plant. There are, however, some authorities who identify the 'sweet cane' with cinnamon bark (Radak, Sherashim). Some say that kinman is the wood, and keneh bosem is the bark (Abarbanel)." [68] Benet in contrast argued that equating Keneh Bosem with sweet cane could be traced to a mistranslation in the Septuagint, which mistook Keneh Bosem, later referred to as "cannabos" in the Talmud, as "kalabos", a common Egyptian marsh cane plant.[67] (end quote)

Let's say it is "bark" being used and not cannabis...some types of bark can cause hallucinations and a high.

Psychoactive Plants - http://landau.faculty.unlv.edu//psychoactiveplants.htm

I don't know what all this means. Could just be false information.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
This entire discussion as related to severe pain presupposes that we will all continue to live in modern times with an electric grid running, and doctors and hospitals and pharmacies, to give us oxycodone and vicadin and morphine drips or even just ibuprofen.

The risks to the grid are tremendous and real, and the possibility of various doom scenarios that interrupt "just in time" shipping and credit are equally real. I would go so far as to say it is delusional to think that we could not be plunged into great trials in our lifetimes or even in months or a few years, where such wonderful medical gifts are suspended for a time.

Last year a root on my molar cracked and I got a big messy abcess into the bone, and I had to get the tooth extracted. For a period of about six days it was worse pain than having my four babies all natural. I would gladly have another baby than an abcess and extraction.

I made the mistake of initially taking half a pill, because they only gave me eight pills and I figured I better spread them out. During the few hours while the half a pill didn't work and I took the rest, I wanted to die and was trying to figure out if there was a way to kill myself and not end up dead. Not real rational I know.

I realized then that if my tooth abcessed during a doom scenario, I would do what they did 200 years ago and take anything I could get, including heroin or pot. When God said he gave the green herbs to men, he gave us opium poppies and pot for a reason, and they are a gift. God gave them to men. If pot relaxes suicidal temptations, then it is an instrument of God to lift temptation from those in agony.

I am 100% against recreational use, and I don't agree with the casual Reformed attitude towards hard drinks either. Whiskey is for getting teeth pulled, not fellowship in my opinion. But it doesn't matter what I think and I digress.

If you read about what it is like to get a severe burn over a large part of your body ( never happened to me thank God) I don't think that for one second you would hesitate to give pot to a burn victim if nothing else was available. I think it would be literally sociopathic to not do so, and I don't mean to imply that for one second JBlade is anything but a loving, caring, great brother. I know he is a fine and godly man. But I do think he, and indeed the whole thread, assumes that modern medicine will always be there at our fingertips. Well, maybe it will be, and I pray for grace that it will be. But maybe it won't. And if that happens, pot will be a blessing to those who suffer, and maybe the only pain relief available.
 
I thought this was very interesting from J.R. Miller:

"There they offered Jesus wine to drink, mixed with gall; but after tasting it, he refused to drink it." Matthew 27:34

The offer was kindly meant. There was an association of women at Jerusalem, a compassionate sisterhood, whose work was to provide such stupefying draughts for those who were crucified. The object was to produce partial unconsciousness, so that the terrible agonies might not be so keenly felt. It is pleasant to find that such an association existed at that early day, and that it was among the Jewish people. True religion always yields such fruits. Christianity has filled the world with just such gentle ministries. Wherever there is suffering — Christian women go to alleviate it.

But it must be noticed that Christ did not accept this potion. He tasted it, showing His recognition and appreciation of the kindness that offered it — but he did not drink it. One reason probably was, that He would not seek to lessen in any way, the bitterness of the cup which His Father had given Him to drink. He would drink it to its last drop, and not dull the sense of suffering in Himself to make the draught any less bitter.

Another reason doubtless was that He would not cloud His mind in the least degree, as He entered the last experiences of life. He would not dim the clearness of His communion with His Father, by any potion that would impair His full consciousness. The example of Christ does not teach that it is wrong in ordinary cases, to use anesthetics to deaden the sense of pain. There were peculiar reasons why our Lord would abate nothing of the bitterness of His suffering. Chloroform and ether have been wonderful agents of mercy and blessing in the world. But it does seem proper that a person should not, when dying, be given any potion which would cloud the mind, or send the soul in a state of stupefaction through the experiences of death and into the presence of God.
 
If the goal is to not numb the mind nor cause stupefaction, and enable someone to focus on let's say imminent death and the Lord, then if there is agonizing pain present wouldn't you want to get rid of the pain? Isn't pain the very thing that numbs our thoughts to practically anything else but the pain? Would not the ability to relax and stop thinking about the pain be a good thing?

Just experientially and anecdotally, have you ever had excruciating pain and been able to get your mind off it and pray coherently for your normal prayer list the way you would on a normal day? Am I the only wimp among us?
 
If the goal is to not numb the mind nor cause stupefaction, and enable someone to focus on let's say imminent death and the Lord, then if there is agonizing pain present wouldn't you want to get rid of the pain? Isn't pain the very thing that numbs our thoughts to practically anything else but the pain? Would not the ability to relax and stop thinking about the pain be a good thing?

Just experientially and anecdotally, have you ever had excruciating pain and been able to get your mind off it and pray coherently for your normal prayer list the way you would on a normal day? Am I the only wimp among us?
That's a good question. I wish there were a black and white easy way to answer it.
 
If the goal is to not numb the mind nor cause stupefaction, and enable someone to focus on let's say imminent death and the Lord, then if there is agonizing pain present wouldn't you want to get rid of the pain? Isn't pain the very thing that numbs our thoughts to practically anything else but the pain? Would not the ability to relax and stop thinking about the pain be a good thing?

Just experientially and anecdotally, have you ever had excruciating pain and been able to get your mind off it and pray coherently for your normal prayer list the way you would on a normal day? Am I the only wimp among us?

Yes, Lynnie you would want to minimize the pain you're enduring. There is nothing spiritual about writhing in pain. Pain causes great stress to your body. Stress can actually cause decreased healing and increase healing time. Pain, especially severe pain, can keep a patient from improving from their wounds or surgery. For example, broken ribs can keep you from deep breathing and ambulating which can lead to pneumonia if not treated appropriately and in a timely manner with pain meds. Some of our back surgeries would be another example. Untreated pain can lead to further diseases.
 
"And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." (Genesis 1:31a)

I haven't been following this discussion very closely, ao I apologize if this comment is at all off topic.

God made everything good. That would appear to include cannabis. Must we necessarily reject all cannabis-based treatments?

I will say that I am not at all a fan of marijuana. I have seen it abused, and I have seen it ruin people's lives. If a doctor recommended to me the use of cannabis for whatever reason, I think I might prefer to try some other treatment first.

But, first, I do not think it has been demonstrated that cannabis is demonic, and second, on the grounds that God created things good, I am hesitant to label a plant "demonic."
 
"And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." (Genesis 1:31a)

I haven't been following this discussion very closely, ao I apologize if this comment is at all off topic.

God made everything good. That would appear to include cannabis. Must we necessarily reject all cannabis-based treatments?

I will say that I am not at all a fan of marijuana. I have seen it abused, and I have seen it ruin people's lives. If a doctor recommended to me the use of cannabis for whatever reason, I think I might prefer to try some other treatment first.

But, first, I do not think it has been demonstrated that cannabis is demonic, and second, on the grounds that God created things good, I am hesitant to label a plant "demonic."
That means poison ivy and mosquitos are good, too, as well as parasites.
The Fall fundamentally changed the nature of everything.
 
That means poison ivy and mosquitos are good, too, as well as parasites.
The Fall fundamentally changed the nature of everything.

I'm quite ready to say that this is something I need to work through. Even so, as incomplete as my thoughts are on this I cannot comprehend the conclusion that a plant is necessarily demonic. Harmful, maybe, but demonic?
 
I'm quite ready to say that this is something I need to work through. Even so, as incomplete as my thoughts are on this I cannot comprehend the conclusion that a plant is necessarily demonic. Harmful, maybe, but demonic?
I also agree with you. Even hard drugs have wonderful medical applications. And demonizing pot seems strange in this day of PCP and other things.
 
Hello Jason! (JM), a better exposition of Psalm 133:2 (with an eye to holiness, and not sorceries), from Spurgeon: https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/treasury-of-david/psalms-133-2.html

Also, on the Exodus 30:22-33 ingredients of the Aaronic oil of anointing:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+30:22-33&version=NIV

One thing about the internet, one can find just about anything to suit one’s tastes! And potheads and acidheads (mushrooms or peyote or mescal buttons etc in earlier days) love trying to find warrant for their use in the Bible.

-----

Tom, you said, “I haven't been following this discussion very closely...” I hope by now you have (as earlier you admit you spoke without knowledge), lest you run afoul Proverbs 18:13, “He that answereth a matter before he heareth it…”.

-----

Hello again, Lynnie! Good to “see” you!

Your scenario brings the discussion into an aspect that was sort of hidden apart from the presence of extreme pain. I did touch upon it in the attached article in the OP. First, a prepper such as yourself I would think would, as much as possible, try to stockpile as many analgesics as possible, including narcotics and opioids, for just such times of emergency when the grid is down and medicines unavailable. And I do think you are sound in anticipating such an event here in America—but that’s another discussion!

Second, and back to pain: I tread carefully here, as I also know acute pain untreated for a brief while. I usually think of such pain in terms of torture, as in, enemies of the Gospel, and of Christ and His people, thinking little of inflicting what extreme pain they can in order to get believers to renounce their God, or just to torment them! This happens even today in other lands, regularly. Our forefathers in the Faith were burned at the stake, sawn in two (Heb 11:37), hacked to pieces, and other diabolic treatments. This may come upon us in the days to come, the “white, wealthy, and wise West” will have the opportunity to show its depravity is even greater than ISIS or other primitive barbarians. No oxycodone from such kinds of people!

I have sincerely asked the Lord not to put me into a situation where I would take a man’s life, though I am capable of doing so if they attacked my family or my brethren in a situation apart from Gospel witness, that is, more “randomly” as in a home invasion or church shooting, or an insane person on the street. I likewise ask the Lord not to put me into a situation of such extreme pain where I would be tempted to break His law, but would give me a way of escape from it (1 Cor 10:13).

As I noted in the OP article, why would I partake of sorcery, exposing my heart and mind to demons, just to be able to eat and breathe, or detach my senses from the feeling of pain, which pot can afford me, if I would likewise resist yielding to renouncing God while under other pains in torture?

We Christians must come to terms with the prospect of holding up or not under torture. It may come to that for some of us. And me, who preach and teach as I do, all the more reason I should ask the Lord for grace in such moments! Sociopathy has nothing to do with how we ourselves will deal with our own pain.

I will talk more about the realities of sorcery shortly, when I resume the discussion.
 
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Sarah, the issue between us is, as regards “faulty truth claims” (your post #46), if it is “bad theology”, or theology wrongly encroaching upon legitimate medical treatment to give THC-laden marijuana (in whatever form) to a suffering Christian (a worldly person is another matter, as I noted in the OP), that is one thing—and has not in any wise been proven or demonstrated, only claimed; and those who are familiar with court proceedings know that mere claims are a dime a dozen. However, if you deny it per se opens a person’s soul to demonic influence, then it is you—a medical practitioner—who are encroaching upon a spiritual matter, illicitly. And that will be demonstrated below.

If you were to try any of this supposed “medicine” yourself, that you claim is so beneficial and benign, and think to foist upon others, particularly suffering Christians, you may have a change of heart were you to find yourself in a dimension you are not supposed to be in, and whose influence you may not be able to escape from, even when the effects are worn off.

You have been warned abundantly that this is evil.

-----

TimFost, you said in post #45, “Since you are continuing in this conversation, I'm wondering if you could interact with Chris's post (#18). in my opinion, he got to the heart of the issue and you ignored it...”

Okay.

It is easy to make unsubstantiated claims, as you have, Chris (TheOldCourse), where I must then answer in detail what is essentially a cavil arising from uninformed opinions, but for the sake of making this matter even clearer to those looking on I will interact with your objections.

Because you said for my “exegesis of Scripture [to] accordingly have the authority of the Lord behind it, the reasoning needs to be far, far tighter”; I shall proceed to respond to your sayings:

First, you state my contention “that drug use per se is condemned by God on pain of spiritual death is not warranted by the evidence put forth. Even the definitions of pharmakeia that have been marshaled in support as the most friendly to your argument include sorcerous use of drugs as only part of the semantic range of the word.” Let’s look at your unsupported claim, which is what really “needs to be far, tighter” to validly object to what I’ve said, and will further say.

In the article attached in the OP, “A Nation of Witches and Sorcerers” (ANWS), I gave the full semantic range of the words pharmakeia (sorcery) and pharmakon (drug); it has three meanings in both Koine and modern Greek: medicine, poison, and magic potion. The consensus of lexicons and commentators agree that in the New Testament usage the semantic range of the word is narrowed to magic potion. Joseph Thayer in his Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, 4th Edition, p 649 does include a metaphorical use as part of its meaning:

φαρμακείαthe use or administering of drugs…sorcery, magical arts, often found in connection with idolatry and fostered by it…trop. of the deceptions and seductions of idolatry, Rev. xviii. 23​

To show why the use of “sorceries” in the Rev 18:23 passage refers to activities involving certain drugs for sorcerous use rather than only figuratively for mere deceptive practices, consider the classes of transgressors in Rev 21:8 who are consigned to the lake of fire: “the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars”. Sorcerers (from pharmakeus) here specifically means one who administers or uses a certain class of drugs to “enchant”, to cast a psychic spell upon by use of these drugs and accompanying demonic power. It doesn’t mean a deceiver – a liar – generally or even figuratively, but specifically one who uses sorcerous potions. Liars / deceivers are already classed separately in this listing. Likewise in Rev 22:15 where a similar Greek word, pharmakos, is used for sorcerer, with the same meaning as pharmakeus in 21:8, again with liars / deceivers listed separately. In these verses the usage clearly refers to drug-using-and-promoting people, so it is clear pharmakeia / sorceries in Revelation 18:23 – “by thy sorceries were all nations deceived” – refers to drug-related activity and not deceptive practices. On the other hand there is no doubt at all that Thayer’s, “the deceptions and seductions of idolatry” are a result of and part of Babylon’s sorceries, but the sorceries themselves are distinctly pharmakeia / sorcery (i.e. drug) activity. Pharmakeia is about drugs—the question has been what kind of drugs; this is what “semantic range” concerns, and what I have specifically addressed.

Also, in both the Revelation passages just examined, poisonous use is eliminated as murderers are also listed; included are abortifacients, which kill babies in the womb.

Your objection, Chris, concerning semantic range, is without merit.

You then opine, “It remains to be demonstrated that pharmakeia necessarily includes an element of psychoactive drug use (which not generally supported by the linguists)”. I have shown, both in ANWS and here, that this assertion of yours is likewise false.

You remark, “that drug use per se is condemned by God on pain of spiritual death is not warranted by the evidence put forth”, and say that I “couch this conclusion in exegetical language”. How cynical of you, as though these unsupported doubts were equal to substantial objections to what I have said!

The final disposition of this matter really depends on whether sorcery / pharmakeia is narrowed in the semantic range to the use of “drugs that induce magic spells” (Kistemaker in his Revelation commentary, as noted in ANWS); “a magical tradition of herbs gathered and prepared for spells, and also for encouraging the presence of spirits at magical ceremonies” [emphasis added] (The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology – again, noted in ANWS); and yet once more, “Pharmakeia means the occult, sorcery, witchcraft, illicit pharmaceuticals, trance, magical incantation with drugs” (The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament, by Spiros Zodhiates, and again in ANWS). I could furnish many more lexical examples to prove my point, but for reason of space I have held off. What can you show, Chris, to back up your opinion disputing what I have written, besides unwarranted opinions and doubtings? I’m sorry to be so tough on you, but before God and men this is life and death stuff!

Thanks for your anecdote about your “giggling”. I don’t know what this is supposed to prove. What you say about alcohol having “psychoactive properties” is inconsequential, for so do tobacco and caffeine, but not at all after the manner of the psychedelics. Sure, alcohol may be used along with sorcerous agents (witches get thirsty, and some like alcohol), but again, that proves nothing. Please don’t bring in superstitions and occult lore re alcoholic drinks and sorcery. Your objections, upon examination, do not pass muster.

-----

TimFost, now that I have addressed what you have called “the heart of the issue”, are you satisfied? Possibly not, but what more can legitimately be said, apart from redundant attempts to gainsay?
 
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Sarah, the issue between us is, as regards “faulty truth claims” (your post #46), if it is “bad theology”, or theology wrongly encroaching upon legitimate medical treatment to give THC-laden marijuana (in whatever form) to a suffering Christian (a worldly person is another matter, as I noted in the OP), that is one thing. However, if you deny it per se opens a person’s soul to demonic influence, then it is you—a medical practitioner—who are encroaching upon a spiritual matter, illicitly.

If you were to try any of this supposed “medicine” yourself, that you claim is so beneficial and benign, and think to foist upon others, particularly suffering Christians, you may have a change of heart were you to find yourself in a dimension you are not supposed to be in, and whose influence you may not be able to escape from, even when the effects are worn off.

You have been warned abundantly that this is evil.

You're right. If I were trying to push marijuana onto patients for one reason or another and also claiming that I know all the spiritual ramifications of using marijuana, then I would be placing myself in the position of both pastor and MD. Neither of which I'm allowed to do.

Here are my claims: 1: I have seen scientific evidence that medical marijuana has significant medical uses. As an RN, I would only encourage someone to use it under the guidance of their MD IF it were legal. 2: You have not proven that marijuana leads normal people (I'm leaving out witches and sorcerers) into the demonic realm. To be frank, I've never heard any reformed pastors state this to be the reason people should stay away from marijuana. Even the article states that the reformed pastors has other reasons people shouldn't use it recreationally. I'm sorry, but you cannot place rules on God's people because of your life experiences, and now you have found some info that supports anti-marijuana use. I'm very happy that God healed you. It's a blessing beyond measure, and I would never encourage you to use marijuana. 3. I was at one time in my life a heathen. I did smoke marijuana off and on for a short period. I had three different experiences (most likely because of what was or was not added to the marijuana). One experience (I kept getting the pot from the same person) was like being drunk and I thought it was pretty cool I could be drunk without being nauseated. The second experience a few years later (a one time deal) it knocked me out cold (I'm assuming there was more in the weed than just weed). The third experience (again a one time deal) I only took a few puffs off of it and had a very slight buzz. There was none of the hallucinations etc you speak of. If given the choice, I would rather see people abuse marijuana than alcohol. The violence would decrease, there would be less disease association, and I wouldn't have to treat alcoholics on my unit. It isn't fun.
 
We differ, Sarah, and will both answer to the Lord when we see Him. Onlookers to this conversation will decide for themselves. Thanks for the vigorous but amicable discussion.
 
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