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Maybe Fesko should be given the Oliphint treatment?
Yes accountability, I think revisions of his work should be mandatory.
However, demanding that someone be forced to retract and rewrite a book because he apparently misunderstood Cornelius Van Til seems a little draconian. Church discipline is not a tool for coercing everyone with whom we have a disagreement.
In which case everyone who is associated with the Trinity Foundation should be brought under church discipline!
You mean let off on a dubious technicality? As if the two situations are even remotely similar. One person was accused of setting forth heterodox theology proper; the other is being accused of misrepresenting a dead theologian. The two things are not even in the same ballpark.
Before he has been given the opportunity to defend himself? From what I have noticed, Barthians, Van Tillians, Reconstructionist Theonomists, advocates of the New Perspective on Paul, and the Federal Visionists always claim to have been misrepresented and that none of their critics has ever understood them. Is a fair critique of such opinions even possible without someone shouting "misrepresentation"? Also, I am not sure that you can ever take anything written by a believer in Paradox Theology at face-value.
I bought the book on Thursday and have neither had the chance to read the book nor listen to this review. However, demanding that someone be forced to retract and rewrite a book because he apparently misunderstood Cornelius Van Til seems a little draconian. Church discipline is not a tool for coercing everyone with whom we have a disagreement.
You mean let off on a dubious technicality? As if the two situations are even remotely similar. One person was accused of setting forth heterodox theology proper; the other is being accused of misrepresenting a dead theologian. The two things are not even in the same ballpark.
Before he has been given the opportunity to defend himself? From what I have noticed, Barthians, Van Tillians, Reconstructionist Theonomists, advocates of the New Perspective on Paul, and the Federal Visionists always claim to have been misrepresented and that none of their critics has ever understood them. Is a fair critique of such opinions even possible without someone shouting "misrepresentation"? Also, I am not sure that you can ever take anything written by a believer in Paradox Theology at face-value.
I bought the book on Thursday and have neither had the chance to read the book nor listen to this review. However, demanding that someone be forced to retract and rewrite a book because he apparently misunderstood Cornelius Van Til seems a little draconian. Church discipline is not a tool for coercing everyone with whom we have a disagreement.
Apparently you spent no time with the content posted by the OP from the Reformed Forum, otherwise you would have read quotations from sources and or listened to them along with discussion.
By "let off" and "dubious" you mean Oliphint intended to teach heterodoxy? I do not believe Dr. Oliphint would ever intentionally teach heterdoxy, that he might err or misspeak etc. is common to all men.
As to the commonalities, both are recognized teachers, both have written published works with controversy. It is a similar situation. The subject of controversy is different, but the situation is nearly identical. The question here is whether Fesko intentionally misrepresented or if he is mistaken and will retract or revise accordingly.
It seems rather obvious though grouping Karl Barth and Cornelius Van Til into the same category the pejorative nature of it so as to be purposely offensive.
I just listened to it today, as well. I was astounded at the number of Van Til quotes taken so egregiously out of context. I hope Dr. Fesko honors their request to appear on their podcast.
@Reformed CovenanterI hope you share your thoughts when you finish the book.
Here is a challenge to Van Tillians: name me a critic who you believe has accurately understood and fairly represented your opinions?
With theonomy, I believe that John Frame and Vern Poythress both understood and fairly represented the opinions of the theonomists whom they critiqued. Recognising that point does not mean that I agree (at least not entirely) with their critiques, but is a simple acknowledgement that they did not misrepresent those whom they criticised.
“...when your principles are so vague and are used so dialectically that you can prove anything by means of them (depending upon your predilection), then those principles are as good as ‘proving’ nothing.” Bahnsen on Poythress’ Theonomy
And for that matter, “On page XV of the Introduction Poythress warns his readers that technical terms he uses ‘have a good deal of vagueness and imprecision about them;’ and that ‘my *definitions* should be read sympathetically and not pressed for mathematical precision.’” Gordon Clark on Poythress’ Clarkianism
I’m merely pointing out that Poythress is not always recognized as accurately representing positions with which he disagrees - if, indeed, using unambiguous language is a necessary condition for fair and accurate critique.
Many Thomists believe that Scott Oliphint misrepresented Thomas Aquinas in his recent book on that subject.
Richard Muller (although he is not a Thomist) believes this. He also believes that Oliphint misrepresents Aquinas because his mentor, Van Til, also misrepresented him.
Where does Greg Bahnsen say that Vern Poythress misrepresented him? That is not what the above quotation says. Is GLB not critiquing the hermeneutical method of VSP? Also, note that in my earlier post I stated that *I* believed that both he and John Frame fairly represented theonomy even though *I* would not agree with all of their critiques. For one thing, I disagree with Vern Poythress on the penalties pertaining to the first table of the law. Others may disagree, which they are free to do if they think the evidence is to the contrary.
Daniel,
The quote I provided is from No Other Standard - Theonomy and Its Critics. Bahnsen dedicates Appendix B to “Poythress As A Theonomist.”
And although Bahnsen expressed passing gratitude for Poythress’ efforts in comparison to others and, also, for Poythress’ theonomic sympathies - Bahnsen spent most of the time critiquing Poythress for “unreliable reasoning,” “lack of adequate logical, textual controls,” “arbitrariness and inaccuracy,” and “capricious use of principles.”
So, I think it’s fair to say that since Bahnsen thought that Poythress approached the theonomic thesis with (a) unreliable reasoning, (b) logical lapses, (c) arbitrariness, (d) inaccuracy and (e) capriciously, then it would stand to reason that Bahnsen also believed that Poythress “misrepresented” the theonomic thesis. After all, how could Bahnsen think Poythress represented Theonomy fairly given such severe objections?
Now I suppose it’s theoretically possible that Bahnsen thought Poythress mispresented theonomy but not Bahnsen’s theonomy, but then we’d be left to ask, who’s theonomy was Poythress aiming to criticize if not Bahnsen’s?
I believe Poythress has showed great promise and did not make the outlandish remarks and reckless criticisms as some of his contemporaries. But in the end, I agree with Bahnsen. Poythress employed flawed reasoning throughout his critique. In doing so, he necessarily misrepresented theonomy. That said, I have no problem extending that misrepresentation to Bahnsen.
Ron, thanks for providing the fuller context of the remarks. Even if we grant that Greg Bahnsen thought Vern Poythress misrepresented him, the rest of us may be forgiven for not taking Dr Bahnsen's response to a critic at face-value. From what I have read of Dr Poythress and John Frame on the subject, they were fair, thoughtful, and generally irenic critics whose criticisms were not wrong in every particular.
For my part, I agree more with Dr Bahnsen than Vern Poythress on the subject in question, but I am not convinced that the latter misrepresented the former. While it is a long time since I read No Other Standard, I do think it is fair to say that Dr Bahnsen was too quick to dismiss Dr Poythress' concerns about his understanding of πληρῶσαι in Matthew 5:17.
Their abuse of 19.4 is deplorable.
Who’s abuse? The critics or theonomists? And why?
Their abuse of 19.4 is deplorable.
So which non-Van Tillian represented Van Til correctly?
I'll grant that point. When I was a theonomist at seminary, an adjunct prof come in and while he was supposed to be teaching on the person of Christ, he started yelling at how theonomists wanted to stone the Virgin Mary. I'll leave it at that.
I don't know what it's like now but there was a time one couldn't be in the same room with a Theonomist and not be held suspect. My old church was not theonomic but did hold to the orig unAmericanized WCF, and it was fear of theonomy that was one fact that kept the church out of the Presbyterian Reformed Church. I'll edit to say that we did have a thonomist leaning deacon at the time who was one of the Tyler ARC excommunicants and had all the papers and documents of that controversy (often thought someone needs to get to him and perserve those or do a thesis at least on it before its all lost; maybe something positive could come out of it; OTOH, fading into the dustbin of history might not be bad either). But the church's position was not theonomic. One thing positive from Bahnsen's TICE is that it did lead to an interest in the views at the time of the Westminster Assembly (Bahnsen was unaware of key pieces if I recall rightly), witness in 1990 the appearance of Ferguson's Assembly of Theonomists and I also published the first new edition since the assembly of Gillespie's Wholesome Severity (Naphtali Press Anthology vol. 4).