Adultery and homosexuality in the moral law

[RamistThomist]

No, more that while we can still demand death in certain cases, we do not have to apply it all the time.

That's a little bit different from your earlier claim that if the judge released a mass murderer after a few years, when I pressed you on it, you said something like "It shows he was repentant." That was the disturbing howler I was trying to get clear on.

 

[RamistThomist]

2 Cor 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

That's great and all, but what is "justice" in the civil sphere in this situation? Giving him a job as a janitor in the bank?

I'll ask the question again: what is the purpose of punishment?

 

[Stephen L Smith]

That's great and all, but what is "justice" in the civil sphere in this situation?

I was responding to your earlier question "How do you "restore" a murderer to society?"

A civil magistrate operating under God's law would acknowledge true repentance and that God forgives sin. Obviously there are consequences for sin, king David being a supreme example here.

In the case of murder I do believe in the death penalty. Gen 9:6

 

[Dachaser]

I was responding to your earlier question "How do you "restore" a murderer to society?"

A civil magistrate operating under God's law would acknowledge true repentance and that God forgives sin. Obviously there are consequences for sin, king David being a supreme example here.

In the case of murder I do believe in the death penalty. Gen 9:6

Even God only mandated first degree murder qualified for that though.

 

[SeanPatrickCornell]

Even God only mandated first degree murder qualified for that though.

I don't see any reference to "first degree murder" in the Bible. What about second degree murder? Seems to me as I read the definitions of second degree murder, scripture would treat it no differently than first degree murder.

In fact, it seems that scripture supports the death penalty even for involuntary manslaughter, (with a caveat). Those who were guilty of involuntary manslaughter only avoided condemnation if they fled to a City of Refuge AND STAYED there until the death of the current High Priest. If they left the City of Refuge... too bad for them.

 

[Dachaser]

I don't see any reference to "first degree murder" in the Bible. What about second degree murder? Seems to me as I read the definitions of second degree murder, scripture would treat it no differently than first degree murder.

In fact, it seems that scripture supports the death penalty even for involuntary manslaughter, (with a caveat). Those who were guilty of involuntary manslaughter only avoided condemnation if they fled to a City of Refuge AND STAYED there until the death of the current High Priest. If they left the City of Refuge... too bad for them.

God still allows for Death penalty now, but only for murder, and not all that was done under the Law.

 

[RamistThomist]

but only for murder

Says who? Why isn't kidnapping a capital crime?

 

[Dachaser]

Says who? Why isn't kidnapping a capital crime?

It can be if murder is also committed.

 

[Taylor]

It can be if murder is also committed.

You literally just ignored his question, added your own, and never answered him. To say that somebody should receive the death penalty for kidnapping "only if murder is also committed" is simply to give the death penalty for murder, not for kidnapping.

Can you answer his question, please? And be biblical in your answer. Please stop just making things up, asserting things without argumentation, and writing replies composed of nothing but a fragment of a sentence.

I regret having to sound harsh and demanding, brother, but you must realize that this seems to be your mode of operation on this forum, and it’s extremely agitating.

 

[Dachaser]

You literally just ignored his question, added your own, and never answered him. To say that somebody should receive the death penalty for kidnapping "only if murder is also committed" is simply to give the death penalty for murder, not for kidnapping.

Can you answer his question, please? And be biblical in your answer. Please stop just making things up, asserting things without argumentation, and writing replies composed of nothing but a fragment of a sentence.

The only sin that I see under the NC that God demanded the death penalty for still is Murder, as that was established before God gave to us His Mosaic Law.

 

[Taylor]

The only sin that I see under the NC that God demanded the death penalty for still is Murder, as that was established before God gave to us His Mosaic Law.

First, thank you for a substantive response. I appreciate that.

Second, since you affirm the death penalty for murder, let’s talk about kidnappers. Should nothing happen to them? We can’t just not punish them, can we? But if we must punish them, what punishment should we employ? And how do we decide the equity of such a punishment? Do we just make up what we think is just?

These are serious questions, and I would appreciate an answer to each of them in turn.

EDIT: I would also urge you to be more precise with regard to sins and crimes. We are discussing crime, not sin.

 

[RamistThomist]

It can be if murder is also committed.

Do you understand the difference between an argument and an assertion?

 

[RamistThomist]

The only sin that I see under the NC that God demanded the death penalty for still is Murder, as that was established before God gave to us His Mosaic Law.

Are you actually saying that the magistrate can only institute a punishment if it is in the NC? This is a backwards version of theonomy. It's still a form of theonomy, though. Why can't natural law reasoning be valid in this case?

 

[Dachaser]

Are you actually saying that the magistrate can only institute a punishment if it is in the NC? This is a backwards version of theonomy. It's still a form of theonomy, though. Why can't natural law reasoning be valid in this case?

The view of . Theonomy rule and use of Law in society to me will only happen under Jesus rule here when He returns again, as until then govrrn by the NC construct.

 

[Dachaser]

First, thank you for a substantive response. I appreciate that.

Second, since you affirm the death penalty for murder, let’s talk about kidnappers. Should nothing happen to them? We can’t just not punish them, can we? But if we must punish them, what punishment should we employ? And how do we decide the equity of such a punishment? Do we just make up what we think is just?

These are serious questions, and I would appreciate an answer to each of them in turn.

EDIT: I would also urge you to be more precise with regard to sins and crimes. We are discussing crime, not sin.

I am still for justice and punish of the guilty, but restricting death sentence to just Murder now.

 

[RamistThomist]

The view of .

The view of....what?

You are implying that the magistrate can only punish in accord with the NC. But let's say a magistrate says, based on the light of nature, that kidnapping is a capital crime. Is that unjust? If so, why?

I am going to ask these questions again:
a) When is punishment criminal?
b) How does the punishment *fit* the crime?

 

[Dachaser]

The view of....what?

You are implying that the magistrate can only punish in accord with the NC. But let's say a magistrate says, based on the light of nature, that kidnapping is a capital crime. Is that unjust? If so, why?

I am going to ask these questions again:
a) When is punishment criminal?
b) How does the punishment *fit* the crime?

After the Cross God kept capital crime as Murder defined, but not things like adultery and worshipping false gods.

 

[RamistThomist]

After the Cross God kept capital crime as Murder defined, but not things like adultery and worshipping false gods.

Where does the bible say it is off-limits for civil govt, using the law of nature, to put child-stealers to death?

 

[Taylor]

I am still for justice and punish of the guilty, but restricting death sentence to just Murder now.

Can you please do what I asked and answer all my questions? You didn't answer a single one of them. What are we to do with kidnappers? You didn't answer that. And, more importantly, how do we determine what punishment is just? Can you give me an answer?

 

[Dachaser]

Where does the bible say it is off-limits for civil govt, using the law of nature, to put child-stealers to death?

The only proscribed death penalty for us now to me seems to be for case of murder. Due to the person killed was in the very image of God, and only God can take life.

 

[Dachaser]

Can you please do what I asked and answer all my questions? You didn't answer a single one of them. What are we to do with kidnappers? You didn't answer that. And, more importantly, how do we determine what punishment is just? Can you give me an answer?

We should place them into prisons and jails when found guilty of that crime.

 

[RamistThomist]

The only proscribed death penalty for us now to me seems to be for case of murder. Due to the person killed was in the very image of God, and only God can take life.

That's not what I asked. I asked where the Bible forbade the magistrate to use natural law reasoning.

 

[RamistThomist]

We should place them into prisons and jails when found guilty of that crime.

Why?

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

David, You are not responding well to those who are asking you questions. Your responses do not convey that you have a solid defence other than just tagging things with New Covenant insinuations. You sound more like a bumper sticker than a well thought out conclusion based upon scripture and historical reference. I am working on yards today to get things ready for the Winter. So I am busy. I hope we can communicate via messaging this week. I want to help you understand and learn what I am trying to say. I am still learning what I am trying to convey to you. Maybe we can learn together. I think it would be better if you asked more questions than give responses. Slow down David and see if there are things you might need to learn. This topic is not an easy one. I remember when I had to learn what General Equity is.

I will message you this week brother. Please slow down and regulate yourself.

 

[Taylor]

We should place them into prisons and jails when found guilty of that crime.

Upon what basis do you conclude that this is a proper and just sentence? Is it biblical? If not, from where does it come?

 

[Dachaser]

That's not what I asked. I asked where the Bible forbade the magistrate to use natural law reasoning.

The civil authority should be guided by scriptures while judging severity of crime and punishment, but only murder still warrents death penalty now.

 

[Dachaser]

Upon what basis do you conclude that this is a proper and just sentence? Is it biblical? If not, from where does it come?

Those who commit crimes must be punished by government and civil authorities, as Paul states they are acting as agents of God then.

 

[Dachaser]

David, You are not responding well to those who are asking you questions. Your responses do not convey that you have a solid defence other than just tagging things with New Covenant insinuations. You sound more like a bumper sticker than a well thought out conclusion based upon scripture and historical reference. I am working on yards today to get things ready for the Winter. So I am busy. I hope we can communicate via messaging this week. I want to help you understand and learn what I am trying to say. I am still learning what I am trying to convey to you. Maybe we can learn together. I think it would be better if you asked more questions than give responses. Slow down David and see if there are things you might need to learn. This topic is not an easy one. I remember when I had to learn what General Equity is.

I will message you this week brother. Please slow down and regulate yourself.

I look gowsrding to your response back to me, and hope that all of you have a blessed Sunday in the Lord.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

The civil authority should be guided by scriptures while judging severity of crime and punishment, but only murder still warrents death penalty now.

David,
This makes my point. I agree with you somewhat. The Civil Authority was given the sword by God. Prove your point and your conclusion with references. Don't just make a blanket statement. I personally think you are wrong with your assessment if we look at scripture. Let's take Isaiah 53:6a. Not the whole passage. Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way;...

Sin leads to death. If we guide others into sin we are actually encouraging a form of suicide because we are leading others away from God and telling them to reject Him. That is an Eternal Sin. It will last for all of Eternity. As a Father I have done things that have made my sons blaspheme God like Romans Chapter 2 speaks about. I led them to become bitter sometimes. I am grateful that God has been merciful and allowed me to reconcile some of those things. But the fact remains I am guilty and deserve death because of what I have done. We all have some level of that guilt.

There is a need for good discernment from our Magistrates. We are to pray for that based upon 1 Timothy chapter 2. Let me also point out that the act of Murder may not be the only thing worthy of Capital Punishment and we need to pray that we can discern that. Romans Chapter 1 speaks about reprobation. Leading someone into a life where that is a reality has generational significance. It may carry on for Centuries. To stop and cut off certain sin may be a good thing. That can happen with Capital Punishment. God knows and I pray he gives Magistrates wisdom to know when things need to be stopped or when mercy is beneficial. This issue is not as clear as you may think it is .

You have not provided any study or reference to help us conclude that your assertion that the New Covenant only allows for Capital Punishment if the act of murdering someone has happened. You are not discussing the issues. You are only making what I call bumper sticker statements. You are not interacting with the substance of the issues. You are only skirting around things with statements that appear to have no backing. You are only saying it is supposed to be the way you think because we are in the New Testament era. You are not proving that even. Do you see or understand what I am trying to say?

 

[RamistThomist]

but only murder still warrents death penalty now

Why? You've given us no *reason* as to why judicial punishments are limited to the New testament.