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I think it is wise and prudent to see if the life matches the profession, and this may require time to see genuine fruit. He was "always a Christian" but had some type of conversion because he didn't like the color his hair was dyed at Coachella? Also, his children are now saved because they were all baptized in Armenia recently. Why didn't Adam Tyson discourage this? Satan masquerades as an angel of light and can/does speak right things.I have a question for everyone:
Is it a sin to doubt a profession of sin and repentance?
I ask this because he clearly makes this on the album and his current pastor also backs up his testimony on the Apologia interview.
If we judge someone’s current justification based on a persons past, public or private, then we are all damned.
From what I've read, this is simply untrue. He had been working on another album for a good long while, and then he switched to this one following his conversion. He didn't immediately publicize his conversion, and who can blame him? He doubtlessly had a lot to work through. From what I've seen, he began speaking publicly about his conversion and the album at the same time.
Your impugning of his motives is highly uncharitable, and is an outright violation of the 9th commandment.
Ultimately the Lord will judge. I say to accept a profession with charity so long as nothing grossly inconsistent with a real profession is present. And judgment needs to account for the fact that he is a neophyte. He is going to make a lot of mistakes on basic things (like us), most all of them will reach the public eye (with the help of the media sharks), they are going to be things which a seasoned Christian could have more easily avoided or seen coming, but we should do as Christ does--when we see grace that is weak, do what we can to help move it from an ember to a roaring flame. Then Kanye will be better equipped to turn around and do the same for other brothers and sisters. Or we can hinder him.
And we too are being tested in our response. And the world will observe our response. So will Kanye himself. Let's take care that we do not cause little ones to stumble.
I agree that the world is watching, that is why I say that we must be slow to declare someone to be a "Christian". If Kanye turns out to be a liar and does something really stupid, the world will say "see, that's how Christians are!" He is a well known famous person, therefore to the world he is now the spokesperson for all Christians. I pray that he is truly saved, but if he isn't than his fall will effect all of us.
...I find it astonishing people are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
I see no evidence of true conversion.
In all fairness, we don't know either of these men. I think of the former Calvinistic pastor Doug Phillips who deceived many good men. My point is, it is prudent to wait and see if he bears evidence of fruit meet with repentance.Why is this astonishing? Have you not followed this thread? There is a pastor—a Calvinist, no less—who has spent hours and days with West in person, speaking with him about the gospel, who says that as far as he can tell, West is making a genuine profession.
You don't even know this man. I think it is perfectly fair to trust the testimony of the pastor above mentioned.
Why is this astonishing? Have you not followed this thread? There is a pastor—a Calvinist, no less—who has spent hours and days with West in person, speaking with him about the gospel, who says that as far as he can tell, West is making a genuine profession.
Though, I also fear the effects of unwarranted skepticism which I've made known, more from a fear of speaking wrongly of a true work of the Spirit.
I have followed this thread including the worrying things said about this pastor. I don't know why his being a calvnist- apparently- means Kanye is truly converted? I know nothing about this pastor. Why would I trust his judgment?
I find it astonishing that Reformed folk would have such a low bar for accepting someone's "profession" of Christianity as true. Are we so desperate for any cultural validation that we'll accept anyone who offers the slightest suggestion of Christian faith as a true believer? There is nothing on this album which illustrates even a cursory understanding of the Bible's teachings on Regeneration, Justification, Sanctification or Election, let alone what would be requisite for acceptance as a member in a truly Reformed church. There isn't even anything which I would identify as a fully Biblical understanding of repentance. I do not accept a vague claim of "faith" (what does Kanye understand by saving faith? Please direct me to where he explains his understanding) as proof of conversion and neither do the Reformed confessions.
On the other hand fans are being asked to pay £23 for a ticket to see the accompanying documentary at IMAX cinemas and appanrently Kanye West only appears in the film for 7 minutes! Is such money-grubbing consistent with Christian piety? If Kenneth Copeland did the same thing he'd be rightly condemned.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/10224469/kanye-west-documentary-7-minutes/
It has been argued that he is a neophyte and is still learning. Well let him continue to learn, let us wait and see if he bears fruit. Until then we do not accept his profession as true. No church rightly ordered by Scripture and the Confessions would accept as a member someone in Kanye West's situation. It would be irresponsible in the extreme.
However, as I have already said, as a cultural phenomenom there are positives here which are not reliant on Kanye being converted or us accepting him as such. To go any further is unwarranted from the evidence we have so far.
I would ask what these "effects of unwarranted skepticism" are? Where would we see these effects? In your church? Not in my church. Which church does Kanye attend? What session has oversight over him? That is the only place that I can see such effects actually playing out.
Time will tell. I've made my concerns known. I will let it rest there. And should we, and let the fruits bear themselves out.
You don't even know this man. I think it is perfectly fair to trust the testimony of the pastor above mentioned.
I agree: we should wait. I am not one of the ones advocating we accept his profession as valid right here, right now. I, along with a couple others, have cautioned waiting and have been criticised.
It behooves us to keep much in mind what the scriptures say including warnings such as those in Jude, deceiving spirits, and many others. It is best not to ignore what is being shown to us and not checking discernment at the door. There is nothing that prevents one from praying for Kanye.I have followed this thread including the worrying things said about this pastor. I don't know why his being a calvnist- apparently- means Kanye is truly converted? I know nothing about this pastor. Why would I trust his judgment?
I find it astonishing that Reformed folk would have such a low bar for accepting someone's "profession" of Christianity as true. Are we so desperate for any cultural validation that we'll accept anyone who offers the slightest suggestion of Christian faith as a true believer? There is nothing on this album which illustrates even a cursory understanding of the Bible's teachings on Regeneration, Justification, Sanctification or Election, let alone what would be requisite for acceptance as a member in a truly Reformed church. There isn't even anything which I would identify as a fully Biblical understanding of repentance. I do not accept a vague claim of "faith" (what does Kanye understand by saving faith? Please direct me to where he explains his understanding) as proof of conversion and neither do the Reformed confessions.
It has been argued that he is a neophyte and is still learning. Well let him continue to learn, let us wait and see if he bears fruit. Until then we do not accept his profession as true. No church rightly ordered by Scripture and the Confessions would accept as a member someone in Kanye West's situation. It would be irresponsible in the extreme.
However, as I have already said, as a cultural phenomenom there are positives here which are not reliant on Kanye being converted or us accepting him as such. To go any further is unwarranted from the evidence we have so far.
I would ask what these "effects of unwarranted skepticism" are? Where would we see these effects? In your church? Not in my church. Which church does Kanye attend? What session has oversight over him? That is the only place that I can see such effects actually playing out but it would be worse for that church to accept him based on the weakest of evidence than to ask him to wait before becoming a member. But since he seems to have started his own church he won't need to worry about such things as right order and discipline.
So far then you and I really do agree.
The difference that I'm perceiving is that I'm not choosing to rule against his profession at this moment, as I fully expect a new Christian to act childish, though I would have serious questions if they don't grow out of it. I am suspending judgment one way or the other. My perception is that you think we definitively pronounce he is still unconverted. I don't find that to be helpful either for reasons I gave already. But if I misunderstood I apologize now for it.
It behooves us to keep much in mind what the scriptures say including warnings such as those in Jude, deceiving spirits, and many others. It is best not to ignore what is being shown to us while not checking discernment at the door. There is nothing that prevents one from praying for Kanye.
There is nothing on this album which illustrates even a cursory understanding of the Bible's teachings on Regeneration, Justification, Sanctification or Election, let alone what would be requisite for acceptance as a member in a truly Reformed church