Paedo-Baptism Answers Household Baptisms - Practical Application

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RobertPGH1981

Puritan Board Sophomore
Hello All,

As I continue to navigate the infant baptism perspective I thought of a question and would like input. How does a Presbyterian church handle Baptism with the head of the household along with women and children? For a hypothetical example, I am a new convert and nobody in my household was baptized. As far as I am aware my wife and children do not believe yet. My wife is the same age as me and my children are 16, 12. 6 and 2.


EDIT:: Sorry for the confusion. My wife is a believer. I was only creating a hypothetical example to drive discussion. We are currently Baptists considering to switch to a RPCNA church near our home. So do pray for us to better understand the perspective and make the "right" decision.

Thanks,

Rob
 
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Ask your elders not us.
While I understand the sentiment of your post, and is often my go-to response to most matters; I personally would also like to hear your input even though it's not authoritative as his elders' are.

You could give that answer every time for almost every question on this forum.

I am looking for various Presbyterian perspectives.
I mean, he has a point though. Have you approached your elders about this yet?
 
Some perspectives here:
 
I mean, he has a point though. Have you approached your elders about this yet?

I am in constant contact with my Elders on Baptism. As a matter of fact they are doing a special bible study on Baptism for several families in the church. I am trying to determine if the RPCNA denomination is the right fit for us since we are Adherents. I am looking for various perspectives on this subject which is why I am asking. I am confused by the response to ask elders for this specific question over against many other questions on this forum.

This logic can be applied to every question on this forum. What makes this question too sensitive to answer while others are not?
 
I am in constant contact with my Elders on Baptism. As a matter of fact they are doing a special bible study on Baptism for several families in the church. I am trying to determine if the RPCNA denomination is the right fit for us since we are Adherents. I am looking for various perspectives on this subject which is why I am asking. I am confused by the response to ask elders for this specific question over against many other questions on this forum.

This logic can be applied to every question on this forum. What makes this question too sensitive to answer while others are not?
I don't think asking if you've asked your elders first is a bad question, nor implies the question is too sensitive to answer.
 
I don't think asking if you've asked your elders first is a bad question, nor implies the question is too sensitive to answer.

What is your motive in questioning if I asked or not? Is this a common practice for all posts on this forum? Why is a Baptist posting on a Peadobaptist forum?
 
I am in constant contact with my Elders on Baptism. As a matter of fact they are doing a special bible study on Baptism for several families in the church. I am trying to determine if the RPCNA denomination is the right fit for us since we are Adherents. I am looking for various perspectives on this subject which is why I am asking. I am confused by the response to ask elders for this specific question over against many other questions on this forum.

This logic can be applied to every question on this forum. What makes this question too sensitive to answer while others are not?
Robert,
Your question can be viewed from two perspectives--theoretical and real-life. It's the difference of, "Should the unconverted wife and older children of a believer be baptized?" vs "Should my wife and children be baptized?"

From the theoretical perspective, you will get different answers from different Westminster-confessors. It's perfectly legitimate to ask those sorts of questions; I don't think anyone here would discourage that.

From the real-life perspective, though, the question is determined by the elders of the local church. I think the reason folks have been directing you to your elders is that, if this is a real-life question for you, it's a pastoral question that needs to be determined by your elders, and your family should submit to their governance (they hold the keys to the kingdom).
 
Your question can be viewed from two perspectives--theoretical and real-life.

Thank you for the point of clarification. In my case it is Theoretical since my wife and I are both believers. I also don't have more than one child and the family I presented was hypothetical. A friend of mine brought me this example but used Napali immigrants who live down the street from him in one household. They live in one house hold with Father, Mother, brother and sister, Grandmother, Grandfather, Uncle, Aunt and cousins. I felt like that was rare and wanted to simplify but it is still a hypothetical question. I will be discussing this hypothetical situation with my Elders when the time is right, but in the interim, I am looking for perspective.

Some additional background: I was attending a Baptist church and starting looking into Presbyterian Theology. Me and a group of families all are in the same boat in my area and left our old Baptist church around the same time. We are wrestling with the Presbyterian Form of Covenant Theology and have made some great progress. However, we hit hypothetical questions that could use some perspective. I don't want to bother my Elders every single time I have a question which is why I post questions on forums like this.
 
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What is your motive in questioning if I asked or not? Is this a common practice for all posts on this forum? Why is a Baptist posting on a Peadobaptist forum?
Apologies as I didn't realize this was on the paedo forum.
 
Sorry, I was taking this as not theoretical and that it was your situation, which is why I answered that you go to your elders and discuss.

The study of household (oiko) baptisms has not been studied much in history because it hasn't been very prevalent at least in English speaking places or practical to any really before our modern time. If that makes sense.

Personally, I think the examples in Acts of whole households being baptized, and the example of Abraham and Israel's households being circumcised with 1 Cor. 7:14 is where this question is determined, and I believe though I'm willing to be corrected that the Reformed Church should be pro-household baptism of children (if children are faithful in worship attendance), and pro-household baptism for a wife if she were attending faithfully and willing to be baptized.
 
I lean towards believing the whole household should be baptized unless those of adult/mature status refuse. If the wife is willing to be baptized and faithfully attend, she should be baptized as a member of the believer’s household. But it must be done with all the attendant warnings of forsaking the Covenant. She would still not take the Supper until her self-examination and the elders’ examination are satisfactory.
 
In the case of the unbelieving partner being baptized that would mean they would be ready to take communion? I am sure most Westminster confessors would say they should not do as they are not practicing Christians. That would then be a huge inconsistency on those believing in such.

"Those who do actually profess repentance towards God, faith in and obedience to our Lord Jesus, are the only proper subjects of this ordinance"

Baptism is a sign of new life, if an unrepentant but "willing" person is to be baptized and continues living a life of no repentance and no faith in Christ, this contradicts scripture massively. I've yet to see any examples of any unbelieving person to be baptized in scripture, only assumptions being made to who was in or at the "Oikos"
 
Baptism is a sign of new life, if an unrepentant but "willing" person is to be baptized and continues living a life of no repentance and no faith in Christ, this contradicts scripture massively.

To me it sounds like this simply could be solved with the concept of an age of accountability. In other words, when are you old enough to move out, or more generally when are you accountable to make a decision to not attend church without family intervention?
 
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In the case of the unbelieving partner being baptized that would mean they would be ready to take communion? I am sure most Westminster confessors would say they should not do as they are not practicing Christians. That would then be a huge inconsistency on those believing in such.

"Those who do actually profess repentance towards God, faith in and obedience to our Lord Jesus, are the only proper subjects of this ordinance"

Baptism is a sign of new life, if an unrepentant but "willing" person is to be baptized and continues living a life of no repentance and no faith in Christ, this contradicts scripture massively. I've yet to see any examples of any unbelieving person to be baptized in scripture, only assumptions being made to who was in or at the "Oikos"

I'm sorry, your signature isn't filled out and so I have no clue where you are a church member. You do sound like a Baptist. Are you?
 
Another idea I had on this subject is the difference between how we relate to Church and State in our modern era. In the United States the separation we experience between Church and State is not the same separation experienced in Calvin's Geneva. My understanding of Reformation History states that for a parent to reject infant baptism was to in a sense to commit treason. Their connection between Church/State was more fluid back then than it is today. Hence, you wouldn't run into this situation.
 
"baptism is necessary but not sufficient to admit you to the table"

Brother, with all love and respect, that's an answer I have seen a hundred times before, It doesn't directly answer the point made but significantly shows an inconsistency within the paedobaptist view if that were true. I tend not to get too involved with paedobaptist topics too often as it's not primary over the Gospel. And baptism does not save, either way, that's in Christ alone, all the Glory to God :amen:
Brother, with all respect, the OP was asking for paedobaptist answers, not credobaptist objections to paedo answers.

But if you are truly interested in studying the subject, search the board and pay close attention to posts by men such as @Contra_Mundum and @Semper Fidelis (among others), as well as reading books like Fesko’s Word, Water, and Spirit, relevant sections of Calvin’s Institutes, and dig into a covenant theology book like Witsius’ Economy of the Covenants
 
Ask away, brother. There are many here willing to answer. Use that search function too! Most of your questions have probably been answered somewhere around here ;-)
 
Nice..... now we just need @Pergamum since @Stephen L Smith has also converted to the dark side!!
Yes and now we need to get Grant to do his conversion experience - acknowledge that cats are a more purrrfect pet. Unlike dogs, cats disagree with Baptist quantities of water :rofl:
 
This book is excellent. I just read through it and it helped me understand the Presbyterian side better. Although I still have questions I would say I am about 70% convinced.

Baptism - Answers to Common Questions, by Guy Richard.

Have you been through this book?
 
Hello All,

As I continue to navigate the infant baptism perspective I thought of a question and would like input. How does a Presbyterian church handle Baptism with the head of the household along with women and children? For a hypothetical example, I am a new convert and nobody in my household was baptized. As far as I am aware my wife and children do not believe yet. My wife is the same age as me and my children are 16, 12. 6 and 2.


EDIT:: Sorry for the confusion. My wife is a believer. I was only creating a hypothetical example to drive discussion. We are currently Baptists considering to switch to a RPCNA church near our home. So do pray for us to better understand the perspective and make the "right" decision.

Thanks,

Rob
This may help. I haven't read through but R. Scott Clark has tons of material on all these types of questions.


His "Heidelcast" has a lot of episodes on baptism that may be helpful.
 
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